The Sun. — London, England, 1841-10-01 00:00:00

E YEN I G SUN SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. FROM DAILY TAPERS OF YESTERDAY. GLOBE.—The Times of This morning indulges in a column of regret, which is inJ,srTersed with a due seasoning of menace, on the course that is .likely to be taken with regard to the Poor-law by the new Cabinet. There is something in the time of the leading journal so curiously alternating between blarney and bluster, that we are reminded strongly of the individual who expressed in the most polite terms his profound regret at being com pelled- to use his horsewhip, while at the same time he was " laying it .on " with an energy which proved the zest he felt in bestowing the flagellation which circum stances compelled him to administer. The Ministers have already given great offence to their leading organ, by " departing from the discreet reserve which upon other subjects they seemed to have prescribed to themselves, for the purpose of disappointing, in a most material point, the hopes which we (the Times) and many others had conceived of them." It is clear from this that the best chance the Government has of holding together is in standing still ; fur, like a house built with cards, motion would be fatal to the flimsy structure, which is bound together on scarcely any subject by one principle of union. The delay that is asked Ministers for the purpose of making up their minds, is indicative of the fact that much " making up" is requisite. The only cement the party can boast is that most inferior stuff which, under the name of self-interest, binds, like bad mortar, for a very brief period, and is apt to crack and give way beneath the sunshine of prosperity. It can not be said of the Times that it does not know how to speak out when it is desirous there should be " no mistake" as to what it means ; and we are told this morning, as plainly as language can tell us, that unless a certain course is taken by Sir R. Peel's Government, of which the Leading Journal has little hope, its con doctors will " wage war with as much perseverance as ever upon principles with which the Ministers whom we (the Times) support will from this time be identified." Our Contemporary evidently, by its expression, "ftom this time," regards the new Cabinet as already identified with the principles upon which war is to be waged ; and we may therefore look for an immediate resumption of the bludgeon, with which, in the good old times of the Reform Bill, the editor was wont to belabour the whole Conservative party, not forgetting some smart incidental cuffs for the Queen, who had " done it all," when a check was given to the liberal hopes of the irritated journalist. But we find, from the concluding paragraph of the article in the Times, that it will postpone until next Session a further explosion of its anger, and Sir Robert Peel may then expect a volcano, indeed ; for the jetting loose, after a five months' bottling up and cork ing down, of the concentrated essence of thunder, must lead to a blow-up of the most alarming and desolating character. STANDARD.—" What is the principle of the New Poor-law ?" This is a question which it has become ne cessary to resolve, as far as we are able, notwithstanding the proverbial wearisomeness of such inquiries. Sir James Graham declared on Tuesday night that he still adhered to the principle of the new law, and as he may be supposed in this res pect to speak the sense of the Government, it is, in the actual state of public feeling and public opinion, very desirable to obviate any mistake upon the subject. Our respected contemporary the Times gives the fol lowing as its understanding of the principle of which we are in pursuit :—" A floating legislative discretion in th© place of law, and the substitution of a central for a local authority." We can never dispute the interpretations of the Times without diffidence; but here we are convinced that the journal is in error. Aprinciple must be permanent. Now, by the very terms of the law, the Commission is but • temporary and provisional, and with the Commission must expire both the floating legislative discretion and the central authority. As we understand the law, the sole purpose of the Commission and of its authority, whether legislative or administrative, was to bring the country by dis;ipline into a certain order, for the operation of the new provisions of the law, some of these provisions being confessedly experimental, and that having done this, the Commission will be functus officio. The Com mission then can be no part of a principle according to our understanding. The Times proceeds to say that the workhouse test is another principle of the law—" the principle of the administrative system." The workhouse test has a deeper root than we could wish; it is the nee try consequence of the union system—the origin of most that is objectionable i n the law, and itself the effect of parsimony,. whether the saving - of money was or was not the primary of ject of those by whom the law was passed; but the workhouse test is net a principle. Neither the workhouse test, however, nor the system of unions, can be properly called a principle. The first has been to some extent already departed from, and must be very generally abandoned in' the end ; and the second is far too uncertain and arbitrary to deserve the name of a principle. That cannot be principle which leaves it still doubtful whether two or 20, or 200, or 2,000 parishes, shall be incorporated. The formation of unions we regard as one of the confessedly experimental parts of the law ; and it is an experiment that has failed for every purpose, except a momentary saving, to be balanced by a frightful pecuniary loss in the end. It must be given up. Sir James Graham and his colleagu es ar e too wise men not to see that the system of unions cannot be permanently maintained, even were it desirable to maintain them. For the present they are preserved only as part of the provisional discipline, contemplated from the first as only . provisional by all the great - men who supported the introduction of the law. These are our reasons for respectfully differing from the Times as to the proper understanding of the words employed by Sir J. Graham. THE MARKETS. COUNTRY CORN MARKETS. Wheat. I Barley. Oats. I scans. rem., Per Quarter Ruston itramtiee rs ighton C.inibridge Dunmow Grantham Grimsby flailsham Hitchin Ipswich „ewes Maidstone Norwich Petworth Rumford bandwich riletford 9Voshecti Withian Yarmouth s. to a. 55 74 52 70 58 78 62 74 55 63 60 73 56 74 j ttl 78 50 73 50. 76 56 17 (1 68 1 55) 76 58 72 k 73 7) ' t 6 78 62 71 60 64 56 63 60 70 60 74 Kit POOL White, Li V WHH:ATE Engli a. to a. I. to 5. 22 19 18 22 27 34 93 29 29 25 29 34 ;30 34 24 28 36 37 23 29 26 33 22 29 29 33 16 21 1.0 30 23 I,:gf 29 34 22 no 29 36 21 26 26 20 2 1 2 25 36 30 34 39 50 24 WI 5-2 33 34 k2B 30 Q 9 39 15 26 30 36 1:0 30 34l 26 30 32 36 21 24 28 134 IS 20 132 37 27 31 130 32 124 30 CORN At VOCE:F.- , per 701 b..» scotch. Welch, and Manx Irlah, White . -- Foreig n 04111, English. Welsh, and Scotch, per 4:11b..- --- Irish ---- Foreign r,,PLEY. English, Malting, per hup. quarter Scotch and Irish, pet Nibs. - Feeding Mime, k.;:yrtish, per Imperial quarter --- Idisc . - Foreign PRASt, Engl.sn, per I crii:crial quarter ..... Foreign fi.oug, English, per Llerrillt. Irish _ _ . to 39 48 35 40 40 41 A. to S. 35 38 91 38 41 43 40 44 46 33 37 36 40 136 40 137 39 84 45 I 31 40 '34 39 31 38 38 40 34 40 42 44 :31: 44 35 43 39 43 4:3 137 44 138 40 —14.0. 23 119..91 to 10 , 0 6 9 10 00 90 8 :4 70 9 0 8 9 10 29 3 3 3 1 3 38 40 37 43 24 36 26 41 34 38 34 211 3S 40 40 4' 32 38 33 4) 38 41 34 37 31 38 39 40 1081111:AL, English and triuh,per -24intis ...... Intimi CUUN, 1K r 48011). Rim, per Impel-al quarter MALT, per Imperial quarter ........ P v 0 CI 4 4 ..... 4 2 4 4 ,„ 43 6 46 0 AO 0 41 C 44 0 44 40 0 44 40 0 4i 0 S 1 0 50 43 0 ii e 0 :Ai 6 3, 0 40 4' , 330 , 4B 0 C 4 0 SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. (LLOYD'S ESSELBSrOI: EN' IV ITU. —The Cosmopolite, from London to (la t :iee, on the 11th inst., lat. 44, lon. 49 ; James Harris, 1 . 10 inst. ; Albion, bound to Newfound land, 25th inst., lat. ;;O, lon. 14, by the William 'Thomp son, arrived at Bristol. Jane Walker, Narva to Liver pool, 18th inst., lat. 56, lon. i ; Baltic, Quebec to Clyde, 12th inst., lat. 46, lon. 43 • Thotll..:s Carty, Liverpool to Haiifax, 15th inst., l at . 47, lon. 36 ; 'i',le:nachus, Poole to NVivfoundland: 21st inst ; Ann Eliza, Liverpool to 3b i ranhaul, 21st inst., lat. 48, 1;11). ;'Margaret Pollock, of Glasgow, steerw- W., 23d inst.. lat. 50, lon. 1 2, by t h e Feron!a, arrived at Bristol. tiollr, Havre to New York..6th inst., lat. 43, lon. u 6 ; Avrsht,-., Liverpool to s% Johns, N.B , 13th inst., lat. 47,10 n. 40 ; John Hale, Cardiff to Portland, lath inst., lat. 49, lon. 18, by the Ville de Ly on, arrived at H avre. Ocean, of London, for New Y ork, 23d inst., lat. 50, lon. 11, by the Miracle, arrived at Liverpool. —We recor d w i t h D EATH OF LADY RUCHE. feelings in which we only sympathis e w i th all who knew her inestim able value, 'the death, at Carass la st night, after a painfu l and p rotracted illness, borne. h s•L'unissive resignatio n, of Lady Roche, the belo ved wife of Sir David Roche, Bart., M.P. for this city. Lady Boche was daughter of J. Ormsby Vandaleur, Es., of •.al-Addenstone House, cou nty Kildare, and was q married on the 14th of February, 1825. She has left four interesting children to mourn her early demise, by which many families of distinction in this city and county, and the counties of Clare and Kildare, are thrown into mourning.—Limerich Reporter. LIVERPOOL, SEPT. 29.—A requisition to the Mar,.-, to hold a Towns meeting to :memorialize her Majesty, has been this day presented with 3,500 names appended to it in two days. A meeting for the purpose has been called fur Saturday evening next, at seven o'clock. HEARNE v. STograLt.—This case of libel, which has attracted so much attention in the Roman Catholic world. has been postponed, for further considera tion, till next November. RS - T - 0 - 11.; - : On Thursday week, a violent thunderstorm passed over the eastern district of Vita , shire, accompanied by frequent and vivid lightning. The fol lowing instance of the effects of the electric fluid is peculiar, and worth recording :—At the mansion of Bialkc isle, one 01 the young cattle, grazing in the lawn, was knocked down by the I,ghtning, a n d upon exam i nat i on appeare d to h e i n the hos agonies of death. On being raised up, however, it began to revive, and, after stag ger i ng a b ou t f or little in a state of ap parent insensibility, walked off with its neighbour, who stood ( *mud it in great consternation. During die 640,1100 n it b a d quite recovered. Ou examining the spot where the aegis happened no traces of the destructive fluid could be dis covered. trough a strong sulphurvoiii; odour was very pereep libe, --Edinburgh Cournnt. The following fraud is said to have 1)11 recently detected at Gravelines. The Government grants premiums for the encouragement of the herring fishery. Several boats, having been uueuceessful them selves, have, instead of persev er i ng i n the i r en d eavours, •or submitting to their bad luck, supplied their detleieney lby purchasing c argoes of the more successful English fishermen, and brought theminto port as the produce of their own exe rtions. The Custom-house officers, made acquainted with this trick, have seized their boats, with all their contents, valued at 1,000,000 E IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Sept. 30. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his scat on the Wool sack shortly before Five o'Clock. _ _ _ _ ___ _ The Frogmore Estates Bill and the Royal Gardens Bill passed through Committee, and were ordered . to be read a third time to-morrow. Messengers from the Commons brought up the Ex piring Laws Bill, Clayton's Name Bill, .the Duke of Marlborough's Estate Bill, Liddle's Estate Bill, and other Bills. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL. The Administration of Justice Bill was read a second time, and, the Standing Orders being suspended, it passed through Committee, and was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. CORN-LAWS. Lord BROUGHAII presented a petition from Mid dlewich, Cheshire, and from the congregation of the Tabcrnable Chapel, Trowbridge, praying for the re peal of the Corn-laws. The Noble Lord said he would take that opportunity of reminding those who thought the sliding scale was a great protection to the agricultural interest ; that at the present time, when that interest especially required protection, the result of that scale was a duty of one shilling per quarter, and the consequent introduction of somewhere about five weeks' average consumption of the people of England and Scotland. There had been introduced from 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 quarters at a duty of one shilling. If there had been a fixed duty of Ss. it was very possible that part of this importation might have been made, but it certainly would not have been made in a manner so beneficial to the consumer, and so little tending to protect the grower, as the one shilling duty by the sliding scale. Their Lordships were aware that his opinion was against the fixed duty as well as the sliding scale ; but still the fact should not escape their attention. Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition from Perth, praying for the repeal of the Corn-laws. The Noble Lord said that he feared great distress would result from persisting in the present sy.tem. The Duke of WELLES GTON said, that if the Woble Lord had been in his place a little earlier he would have heard it stated that a very large supply of corn had been introdnced at ls. duty. There could therefore (we understood the Noble Duke to say) be no ground for the Noble Lord's apprehensions. TIMBER DUTIES. Earl STRANGFORD presented a petition from 9,000 [nhabitants of Quebec, representing the frequent changes in the timber duties, and praying for no further alter dons. BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS. On the question for the adjournment of the House being put, Lord BROUGHAM said he would take that oppor tunity of stating the course he meant to pursue on the important subject to which he had called the attention of their Lordships on the first night of the Session. He meant the subject of bribery and intimidation and other malpractices which prevailed to (he was afraid)an unpre cedented extent at the late general election. He then stated to the House that they could not more efficiently and faith fully discharge their duty, than by taking this subject into consideration, and appointing a committee to en quire into the evil, and to provide measures that migh t have a tendency to put a stop to them. The degree to which these practices existed, the extent to which they prevailed, and the miserable effects which they produced, not only on the result of the elections, but on the characters of those concerned, was matter of such notoriety, that any further description of it would be superfluous. He (Lord Brougham) had made it his duty to inquire into the particulars of a vast number of in - stances ; and at one time he had intended to select, for the consideration of their Lordships, three cases which appeared to him to possess features in some degree common to them all, and when he stated to their Lord ships that the parties who were affected by the evidence adduced to him were the three great parties which at present divided men both in and out of Parliament—that in one case the person charged was a person connected with the Government, sitting opposite them in opposition ; that, in another case, the charges were directed mainly against the present Opposition, then the Government—(Laughter from Lord Melbourne, and the Peers on the Opposition benches.) He did not know whether his Noble Friend laughed at the word " present," •or at the word " Opposition." He supposed there was no such thing as opposition. Lord MELBOURNE—AIIow me to explain. I have heard Gentlemen in the House of Commons called to order for using the word " opposition." Nothing can be more unparliamentary. than for any Gentleman to state that he is pledged to opposition. Lord BROUGHAM made an observation, which was inaudible in the Gallery, which excited some laughter, and proceeded. In this case he examined the facts stated by the party with which he usually agreed adversely to those against whom he had the honour of sitting.— (Laughter.) In another of these cases the charges were mainly directed against those with whom he had usually the honour of acting—(Laughter)—those who agreed with his Noble Friend and himself sitting on that side of the House ; and in the third case, the charges mainly affected a third party belonging neither to the regular Tory party nor to the regular Whig party, but to a party which generally passed under another name, belonging to neither one nor the other. He mentioned these circumstances for the purpose of re minding their Lordships that it was in vain to say that these practices were adopted by one party or another. The fact was, that they were adopted by the partizans of all the three great parties, and if he (Lord Brougham) were to state the result of the inquiries he had been able to prosecute, he should say, whichever party in any given place had the greatest possession of the means that party had been most lavish in adopting every course that was calculated to corrupt their fellow-subjects. Those were greatly mistaken who held that these lamentable circumstances, to which he had adverted, had been the result of the Reform Bill of 18:32. He knew that his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack would take credit to himself for having in the debates on the Bill, predicted that the increase of bribery would be the result of that mea sure. He (Lord Brougham) maintained the contrary opi nion. His Noble Friend, howevur, had a right to state that his predictions had been to a certain extent fulfilled. He (Lord Brougham) hell that the tendency of the Reform Bill of 1832 was directly the reverse, and the ground upon which he held that opinion was this—provided the Legislature would do its duty in checking such practices by punishing those crimes the ground on which he thought the Reform Bill did not encourage bribery was simply this—what was the main cause of this bribery ? It was, that the candidate expended his money ignorantly, as he might do justly under the old system of voting, bribery being the result of that expenditure, because the expenses at elections under the old system were such, that thousands might be expended legally; but in the present state of the law, the expenses of a contest were lessened almost to nothing. Such being the case, every candidate who was called upon to spend thousands, and did it with his eyes open, must of necessity know that the money was spent in bribery, Parliament would not do its duty unless, when the facts came to be known, and when the corrup- Lion and intimidation that had been practised had been explained, it took means to put an end to such practices. It was not the Bill of 1832 which had caused the injury, but because Parliament had not taken other steps. He had consulted those who had been ac quainted with the subject, and they had stated that there could be no objection to that House inquir ing into the subject. Why, then, it might be asked, did he not press for the appointment of a Com mittee ? The reason for his not doing so was this. first that the duration of the Session would be so short that it would be utterly impossible to complete the in quiry. In the other House of Parliament there were about eighty election petitions pending, the greater part of which would come to trial in the course of the next Session, That being the case, it might be said that great inconvenience might arise from making inquiries in that House upon subjects that would come before the other House of Parliament.--(Hear.) These two reasons, after much consideration, appeared to him to justify him, most reluctantly, in abstaining from pressing on their Lordships that notice of which he had given notice on the first night of the Session. He hoped, however, that he would have their Lordships concurrence in entering upon that inquiry in the ensuing Session. lie felt sure that it might be conducted with an absolute certainty of obtaining information, He was confident that the facts which would be elucidated, must lead to some legislative enactment, and the inquiry would teach them what the provisions of that enactment ought to be, He should deem it his duty to call their Lordship? attention to the investigation of the facts a. soon as the inquiries in another place had been bruugnt to an end. The House then Adjourned. • HOUSE OF COMMONS, Sept. 30. The SPEAKER took his seat at a few minutes to Four. The Right Hon. T. L. Curry took the oaths and his seat for Tyrone. The Duke of Marlborough's Estate Bill was read a third time and passed. The Riddle's Estate Bill was read a third time and passed. The Clayton's Name Bill was read a third time avd passed. PETITIONS Cot VERNON presented; petition from the grocers and spirit-dealers of Armagh, praying for an alteration of spirit licenses. )Jr. THORNILY presented a petition from Bel Per, in Derbyshire , praying the House to take the depressed condition of the country into its consideration, and to wake an inquiry into the decayed state of various branches of gownorce. Si r a, p LARPENT presented a petition from Bombay, complaining_ of the conduct of Sir Henry Roper, Chief Justice of thut place, and of the partiality in the administration of justice. Mr, EVYART presented a petition from a number of Ministers repregenting, large bodies of the Dissenters of Lancashire and Cheshira Agitinst the Corn-laws. Also a petition from a Baptist congregation hi the same place, empplaining of being o bli g ed to take oaths. Awlao other t,Gr4 09 same parties, complaing of the gross morality of eeits.i4, females is several towns in those counties, and praying th4t may be enacted to prevent such immorality in future. Sir G. *AKER presented a petition from St. tu' - 'ar,cias, praying that the 4gdblipii of Vauxhall a nd Waterloo ma y be opened to the pu c. Mr. COBDEN presented a petit4i 'rum the Protes twit Dissenters of a town in Cheshire agiiiy4er pgn laws, also patitiam from Staley-bridge and Stoeicperk the same etTect. SAVINGS' BANKS. Mr, WILLIAMS gave notice that he should, early THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1641. next Session, move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal certain clauses in an Act passed in the 9th year of the reign of George IV., entitled "An Act to Consolidate and Amend the Laws relating to Savings' Banks," so far as the same authorises the Com missioners of the National Debt to apply any money standing in the names of th 3 savings' banks depositors into Exchequer Bills, and to convert those Exchequer Bills into direr, per cent. Consolidated Bank Annuities ; and which law gave un unlimited power for the sale and purchase of such annuities, whereby a loss had been already, and might be hereaftr, sustained, by the savings' banks depositors, and an addition made to the debt of the ❑ation without the authority or control of Parliament. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sug gested that the Hon. Member had no right to put an ar gument, as he had done, into his notice. Besides, it was not true that the savings' bank depositors had sustained a loss by the system complained of ; and, therefore, he put it to the Hon. Member, whether he would allow a false impression to go abroad, in consequence of his giving such a notice ? The SPEAKER said it was certainly not in accord ance with the rules of the House for an Hon. Member to append an argument to a notice of motion. Mr. WILLIAMS—If the savinms ' banks depositors cannot suffer —(Loud cries of " Order,' order.") The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—AII that is matter of argument, as the Hon. Gentleman must see. Mr. WILLIAMS.—It is matter of fact.---(Order.) NEW WRIT. On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, a new writ was ordered for a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Wilton, in the room of Viscount Fitzharris now Earl of Malmesbury. CASE OF THE LATE MR. J. BROUGHAM. Sir J. GRAHAM then rose and spoke as follows : Sir, I hope, although I may not be strictly in order, that the House will extend its indulgence to me while I offer some explanation relating to certain expressions which are reported to have fallen from me in the course of debate the other evening, and which, I have been informed, have greatly pained the feelings of a Noble Lord, both as touching himself and as reflecting on the memory of his departed bro ther, which, therefore, he feels most sensibly, and as the:friend:of that Gentleman, I also join in those feelings.—(Hear.) Nothing can in general be more accurate than the reports of what pass in this House, and I am therefore disposed to believe that what fell from me was incorrect rather than that I have been mis represented. The House will recollect the other even ing the Honourable Member for Sheffield, referring to the compensation awarded to Mr. Scarlett in consequence of the abolition of his office in the Cor 't of Exchequer, re sisted the grant of that compensation, and asked if it was not exactly a parallel case to that of Mr. James Brougham, who had received an appointment from his brother, the Lord Chancellor, which it had been intended to abolish, and who had not received any compensation. The Honourable Member for Shef field contended that the cases were strictly anala gous. I rose afterwards, and contended that there was a striking difference in the two cases. I stated that in the case of Mr. Brougham, when Lord Brougham, the then Lord Chancellor, authorised the appointment, his Lordship, at the very time the ap pointment was made, contemplated the abolition of the office which Mr. Brougham filled, so that there was a great difference between the two cases. I then intended to have said, " The question arises, was he entitled to compensation ?" Instead of which, I am reported to have said, " The question arose, was he entitled to compensation ?" which seems to convey the meaning that the question of compensation had been raised at the time. Now nothing can be further from the fact. The question never was raised, and nothing can be more honourable than was the conduct of the Lord Chan cellor and of Mr. Brougham on that occasion.—(Cheers.) The question was never raised at all.—(Cheers.) I am exceedingly sorry that any thing should have fallen from me on that occasion which should seem to convey the slightest feeling of disrespect to the memory of my de parted friend—(hear, hear, hear)—and I regret exceed ingly that any thing should have fallen from me to wound the feelings of the Noble Lord.—(Loud cheers.) upon, and the respective dates of such adjudications ; ' :he mode in which such claims were agreed to be paid. and have been paid and satisfied ; the number of Commis sioners, Secretaries, and Clerks engaged in such Corn mission ; the amount of the expenses of such Commis sion, specifying the Commissioners' salaries, and those of the Secretaries and Clerks ; return of the expenses. if any, which were allowed, and to whom, in respect ot the prosecution of such claims, and how paid ; was any and what deduction mitde from the claimants, E'er the purpose of paying agents, or any other expenses ; Anglo-Portuguese claimants ; the date of the disbanding of the respective naval and military forces ; the date of the mixed British and Portuguese -Commis sion, appointed to examine and decide upon the claims of British subjects who served in the army or nary during the war of restoration in Portugal ; copy of the rules for the guidance of the Commissioners ; the date of the installation in office of the Commissioners; the date of the decision of the Belgian Minister on the question of con tracts ; the date of the commencement of the reception of claims ; the number of days, and of hours per day, during which each Commissioner respectively has been engaged in the labours of the Commission ; whether any accounts have been examined by one Commissioner in the absence of the other ; the number of claims received, and the number, if any, investigated and adjudicated upon ; and of claimants to whom notice of such adjudication has been given ; the number of secretaries, clerks, or others employed under the Commissioners, the dates of their several appointments, with their respective salaries ; the salaries of the Commissioners, and from what source paid ; together with an account of all other expenses incidental to the Commission. The Noble Lord referred, in a very low tone of voice, to the proceedings which had taken place with respect to these claims. He said, after the assurances which had been given, he had entertained hopes that they would have been brought to a speedy termination. Here were two Commis sioners, two Secretaries, and about twelve Clerks, employed, who had under consideration nearly 1,400 claims of claimants resident only in London. The Com missioners stated that they could not adjudicate upon more than 50 per month of the Portuguese claims. At that rate the final adjudication would not be completed under two years. When he compared the prospects at present with the expectations which had been held out of a speedy adjudi cation, he must say he felt extremely disappointed. His object, in reference to the Anglo-Spanish claims, was to show how much more rapidly the investiga tion in that case had been concluded. Although the Commission had had to decide upon twice the number of claims, it concluded its labours within twelve months. The Portuguese claims would not be decided within less than two or three years ; he had, there fore, moved for a table of returns with respect to both Commissions. He entreated her Majesty's Go vernment to adopt some measure for bringing the whole matter to a speedy termination. Without wishing to excite the feelings of the House, he would ask them to consider the miserable condition.of these men, exposed as they were to protracted suffering and disappointment. If there was any part of the motion to which her Ma jesty's Ministers objected he would modify it, but at the same time he would be sorry to see it so modified as not to bring out the fact that the Portuguese Commis sion now sitting was pursuing a course totally at variance with that which was pursued with respect to the Spanish claimants. Sir C. B. VERE seconded the motion. Sir R. PEEL said that the chief remark he bad to make was, that the returns moved for by the Noble Lord had very much the air of being suggested by a claimant—by a party who had (been dis appointed by the delay in adjudicating by the Commissioners._ Several of the returns he objected to, and others he did not ; but he thought the Noble Lord ought not to call for any returns that would imply a reflection upon the Commissioners. If, however, the Noble Lord would withdraw his motion for that day, he (Sir R. Reel) would take an opportunity of considering what information he could with propriety give. After a few observations from Lord PALMERSTON and Lord RANELAGH, Lord SANDON withdrew his motion. Lord W. PAGET, by leave of the House, begged to postpone the motion of which he had given notice, re lating to the number of the wives and children of soldiers now serving in the army, ill consequence of not being furnished with some evidence necessary for his purpose. Postponed sine die. Sir R. PEEL brought up some papers relating to the importation of foreign grain. DISTRESS IN BOLTON. Dr. BOWRING then rose to move for copies o correspondence between the Home-office and the Poor-law Commissioners on the subject of distress in Bolton; with the Report of the Assistant Commis sioner sent by her Majesty's Government to inquire into alleged case of destitution and death, referred to in the debates in Parliament, during the present Session. After the rule laid down by the Chair last night, it be came the duty of every Member of the House to take care that in any case he brought before the House he should avoid all exaggeration. He stood in the position of having made to the House some statements which so in terested the sympathies of the Right,Hon. Baronet oppo site as to induce him to institute local inquiries, with a view to the investigation of the facts, as stated by him, of the distress existing in Bolton. He could not but own that it was peculiarly incumbent upon him to take care that the statements were properly authenticated. He was anxious, from being locally connected , with the district, nut to expose him • self to the charge of exaggerated statements or high colouring. His connexion with Bolton was of a peculiar nature. He went there a stranger, and his • election was a proof of the great distress ex• isting in that town. He had been induced to make the present motion, because one of the Guardians of the Bolton Union, in a manner most uncourteous and uncalled for, had ventured to reproach his (Dr. Bow ring's)personal veracity,and to represent him as unworthy of belief. At a public meeting which he attended, a statement or the distress was made which had harrowed up his heart, and he was determined, if he found that statement borne out by the fact, to represent it in the House of Commons, and to plead the cause of the oppressed poor in the presence of the privileged rich. The gentleman who made that statement had been one of the Board of Guardians. He was a member of the Society of Friends, and had fallen under the dis pleasure of the Honourable Member for Knares borough, as belonging to a body of men who were remarkable for " professing humanity." Now, in his opinion, there never was a society which had made itself so distinguished as the advocates of huma nity, and the best interests of the poor, as that of the Quakers, and the gentleman to whom the Honourable Member fur Knaresborough alluded, was one of those who " did good by. stealth and blushed to find it fame." He applied to the Guardians, Messrs. Ashurst and Naseby, requesting they mould enable him to ascertain what the real state of the people was—what their con dition and sufferings—that he might know whether the sorrowful tales they told at the public meeting could be borne out by facts. Mr. Naseby and he (Dr. B.) accord ingly began to visit the suffering poor in their wretched cellars. He made a memorandum on that occasion of what he had seen and heard, and he would trespass on the indulgence of the House while reading one of those records which he then prepared. The first case was that of a poor man aged 40 years, his wife 36. They had ten children, seven of whom were dead. He had been twenty-one weeks without work. He had 2s. 6d. per week parish relief, and some time before 50s. had been given them ; but all that money was, on the occasion of his (Dr. Bowring's) visit, spent, and they had pledged all they possessed. Their eldest boy was thirteen years of age, and, when employed, got 4s. per week. The family was in nearly a perishing condition, and they had sold all their furniture to procure the necessaries of life.—(Bear, hear.) In pursuing those inquiries, they (1)r. Bowring and the Guardians) were accompanied by such a multitude, that he was obliged to give up his object lest he should be accused of ostentation, and endeavouring to give a character to his conduct far from his thoughts and feelings ; for he was not of opinion with the Honourable Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand) that benevolence should sound a trumpet before it. In the course of his inquiries into the state of the distress in Bolton the demand upon his sympathy was so great, that he who had not the privilege of wealth, and who would confess without shame that lie had known the vicissitudes of life, and that he had been disciplined by affliction, which lie hoped taught him to sympathise with others—so great was the demand upon his sympathy, that he could not pursue the inquiry to the extent he desired. He had, however, received further statements of facts from Mr. Naseby ; and one of those. facts had awakened the compassion and elicited the intervention of the Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government. It appeared, from the reply given to the inquiries of the Government, that the statement was in some particulars erroneous. The Jury had been called together, but they did not record a verdict, because they were of opinion that no blame could be attached to any one. But there could be 'to doubt but a man had died of want at his loom. The Hon. Gentleman then read a letter, which he said he received from Mr. W. Cooke, secretary and visitor to the benevolent society of Ashton, dated September 17, 1341, detailing the case of a person named Pierce. The letter stated that Pierce died from want of food ; and that the Committee of the society to whom he (Cooke) reported the case were of the same opinion. There was no bedding in his cellar, and he and his fa mily were obliged to lie on the bricks and stones. That was his situation only six months before he died. Mr. Cooke further stated that he saw the family picking up rotten potatoes which had been thrown to the pigs, and eating them ; nor was that a single instance, for he saw them taking such food frequently. There was a case of distress, and he thought the Right lion. Gentlemen ought to feel that it became him (1)r. Bowring), from the posi tion in which he stood, to bring forward such an example, proving that the attention of Parliament ought to be directed to the condition of the people. He had stated on that occasion that there were 1,200 houses unoccupied in the borough.—(Hear.) Pro bably it was a fact that the rage for building in Bolton, as elsewhere, had exceeded the demand ; but since he had made the statement he had been informed that the present number was 1,400, and lie had no doubt that many of them had connected with them some tale of sorrow and distress. He was also assured that only two thirds of the Poor-rates could be collected; that the w orkmen connecte with machinery were engaged only half their time d that andthe maso n s that ly A meeting was held in tll and o ta d o o r i s n :s r i s l o w e • m e r a e k e o r n s7a o n n d e h a t third o e ra m p w l e o a y v e e d r s ; were in a still worse condition. Bolton on Friday, at which it was unanimously re solved to present a memorial to her Majesty s Govern ment, entreating her Majesty not to consent to the prorogation of Parliament until those distresses had been inquired into. An appeal was made to that meeting whether the statements which he (Dr. Bowring) had made were borne out, and it was resolved that - they were co . rreet h RlFee. reverent} gentle men with 6 : ; 5 44 y acqt;Ontieillia4 afteiicie4 that meeting : he was sure that not one of them would leviate a hair's breadth from veracity. Mr. Baker sair le could appeal to every class for evidence that the di: press was universal ; he would make no selection; i pervoled every class, from the capitalist to th, abourer. The employers were suffering no les. than the men ; many appeared in the Gazette, and other: made quiet compositions, in the hope of being able t, keep on a little longer. Another of these clergymen re ported the case of a family which had been without rood for two days. Now, be begged again to repeal that he felt deeply grateful to the Government for send ing a Commission to inquire into this distress. But hi entreated the Government that the inquiry might not be a partial one. He had understood that the Commissionet who went to Bolton had remained there only twenty-four hours. Probably he was sent to investigate one specia' circumstance—to make one particular inquiry—thougl he thought that he had gathered that it was the inters Lion -of the Right Mon. Baronet that the inquiry should be made much more extensive. He wa: fully convinced that the more rigid the in quiry was made, the greater would be thi demand for the interference of the Legislature, in order to rescue the people from the condition into which they had fallen. The Right Hon. Baronet had made some statements on a previous night in connection with the savings' banks, and drawn from what had occurred the deduction that already there had been considerable alleviation of the sufferings of the people. He thought the savings' banks were in some degree a deceptive test. A great portion of the depositors were domestic servants, who were not affected by seasons of scarcity or .general distress. The Right Honourable Baronet would also recollect that the period to which his return referred, was during the elections, when a large amount of money was spent among the people. He thought the profession of the parties should in all cases be given in reference to the sums deposited in the savings banks. In the Exeter savings' bank the profession of parties depositing was given, and he inquired how many operatives and artisans were depositors. Of 29,643 accounts there were 6,130 in the name of domestic servants ; 11,538 connected with trade, of whom 5,445 were children ; 9,252 agriculturists ; 1,320 belonging to the army and navy ; and 1,403 public servants and others. There were 12,604 children in all, while the whole number of artizans was 2,220, making only one-thirteenth of the whole number depo sited. The amount deposited was 886,032/., of which 194,1701. was deposited by domestic servants, and 86,168/. by artisans, making :one-tenth of the whole. He was aware that individual cases of distress were not a proof of its generality.—(Hear; hear.) If Hon. Members would look at a document lately issued, in the form of a Report, from the Registrar-General, they would find that the mortality in the manufacturing districts had of late decreased very much. In the metropolis in 1837-8 the number of deaths was 53,596—in 1838-9 the number was 46,768 ; in 1839-40, it was 45,132, showing a decrease in the mortality of the metropolis since 1837-8 of 16 per cent. Taking the country at large in 1837-8, the number of deaths was 335,956 ; in 1838-9, it was 331,007; and in 1839-40, it was 350,101, making a general increase throughout the whole of the country of nearly 4 per cent. But what was the return from the manu facturing districts of Lancashire ? In 1837-8 the number of deaths was 22,932 ; in 1838-9 the number was 26,606 ; in 1839-40 it was 31,918, showing an increase of forty per cent.—(Hear, hear.) Thus, whilst in the agricultural counties there was an increase only of 20 per cent, there was in Lancashire, which was a manufacturing county, the increase had been 40 per cent. There were certainly pestilential and mortiferous diseases in those districts, but these were _ the consequences and companions of distress.—(Cries of Hew., hear." In the agricultural districts the average of distress was 130 in the 1,000 ; in the metro polis it was 161 ; in the manufacturing districts of Lan cashire it was 190.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) He stated those facts not through any desire of fomenting a bad feeling towards the aristocracy, or of inflaming the popular passions, or fanning the flame of popular discontent. If he had sought to pander to the mul titude, he might have taken a different course upon the Poor-law Bill, and done everything in his povkr to prevent that which he thought was right—namely, to leave the measure in the hands of her Majesty's Govern ment. But he only stated this, that the Corn-law and the Poor-law could not be maintained together. He concurred with those who thought that the Poor-law ought not to be interfered with in its details, in order that her Majesty's Govern ment might not turn round on them, and ac cuse them of having taken that measure which had such imperfections out of their hands, and thrown from their shoulders the responsibility of that measure. He must again thank the Right Hon. Baronet for the Home Department, for the peisonal kindness he had shown him in this matter. (Dr. B.) heard that there was some technical objections to the production of the papers moved for. He, how ever, felt that it was due to himself to have said all that had fallen from him on the present occasion. He felt that no apprehension of his (Dr. Bowring's) having suffered himself to make unauthorized statements, would induce the Right Hon. Gentlemen to refuse those reports, The Hon. Member concluded by reading his motion. Mr. BROTHERTON seconded the motion. Sir J. GRAHAM said that he should gladly have seconded the motion of the Right Honourable Member, were it not liable to a technical objection. He found it necessarry in the course of the communica tion which he had instituted into the case of distress alleged on a former occasion by the Hon. Member, to embody certain extracts from the speech of the Hon. Gentleman ; and those extracts could not be laid before the House. But he would suggest to the Hon. Gentleman that he might amend his motion by adding to it the words " or extracts," and he (Sir J. Graham) would in that case lay before the House all the papers relating to the subject which could be produced. Ire must say that he considered it the duty of Hon. Members, before making statements in the House, to inform themselves accurately on the subject ; because it was one thing to make statements in that House harrowing to the feelings, and calculated to excite the House and the country ; and another, after an interval of time to investigate the:de state ments, and follow them np step by step ; and if at the conclusion of such an investigation they were to attend so Ftrictly to privilege, Hon. Mem bers ought to feel the urgent necessity of caution in the statements which they made. He., would suggest to Hon. Members who had to make any statements re lating to the administration of the Poor-laws to have the kindness to communicate to him in writing the statements of facts on which they wished to have an investigation made, and he would cause such in vestigation to take place, and then when the Hon. Mem ber made such statements they could at once be met. In the cases mentioned on a former evening by the Honourable Member for Knaresborough, relating to certain cases in a Union in Yorkshire, and in the cases mentioned by the Hon. Member for Rochdale, on the same evening, he had adopted that course with those Hon. Members, to furnish him with their state ments in writing, and had assured them that those cases should be investigated, and the statements gone into point by point.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem ber for Bolton seemed to complain that the Assistant Poor-law Commissioner had only remained in Bolton 24 hours, and therefore contended that he could not tho roughly have investigated those facts. He was not aware of the length of time which the Commissioner had remained at Bolton, but it was certainly re quisite that he should use no unnecessary de. lay. But the Commissioner had seen the relieving officer of Bolton, and the Board of Guardians of that place, and he had gone into the statements which the Hon. Member had made, point by point, as the House would find when the Report should be laid before them. The Hon. Member had that night alluded to some fresh cases ; but when one statement was under discussion he hardly thought he had a right to go into new matter, and thus thus to change the issue. Without meaning any offence to the Hon. Member for Bolton, he must say that he hoped, with regard to his new statements, lie had ob served greater caution. The first case to which the lion. Member had alluded was that of a person named Pearce, who, according to the statements of the Hon. Member, after undergoing the greatest extremity of suf fering, had died under circumstances the most revolting. He would pass by the Coroner's Inquest, because the Hon. Gentleinau admitted that he could not rely upon it; but he must remark that the Coroner of Bolton, having been applied to, had refused to hold an Inquest on the ground that there was no necessity for it, so satisfied had he been that there was not even a prima facie case for holding an Inquest. The Coroner For the county of Lan caster, however, had not been so scrupulous; he had held an Inquest, and held it in the absence of the relieving officer. Now, with respect to the statement of the wife of Pearce. He begged the House to listen on the one hand to the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, and to the report of the Assistant-Commissioner on the other. The Right llon. Gent. then referred to the statement of Pearce's case, as made by 1)r. Bowring; but, said the Right Hon. Gentle man, the Report of the Poor - law Assistant C o mmissioner was • quite at variance with that statement. The Com missioner said he visited the house and examined the widow of Pearce. She informed him (the Commissioner) that her husband died in February, more than half a year ago, at the age of 65, of a lingering illness ; that she had employment herself, and her two daughters were fully em ployed, earning 9s. 6d. a week daring her husband's life, and that they were in a comfortable way.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then referred to the case of Bristow. It appeared this case had been reported to the relieving-officer,, and that immediate reli e f h a d been administered to his family—(Hear)—and they had lOs. a-week given to them for their support.—(Hear, hear.) He was very far from denying that severe dis tress existed at Bolton, but what he complained of was, that that distress had been exaggerated. An investiga tion took place with respect to the education of the poor about Christmas, 1840, and the House would allow him to read the Report of the Assistant Poor-law Commis sioner in reference to that inquiry. He would read the words of the relieving-officer, whose evidence was taken by Mr. Mott, the Poor-law Commissioner in ques tion. This person said he recollected that about Christmas last the rate-payers formed themselves into a Committee, to inquire into the distress of the people of Bolton. A statement was made in reference to the several parishes said to have been visited, and he thought it his duty to examine the cases.—(Hear, hear.) The result was, that he found that in every case representations had been made which were not true. The amount of earnings had been incorrectly stated, and a colour had been given to every one, implying a greater degree of want than really existed. He charged one woman with telling untruths, when she confessed that she had made her case as bad as she could, in order to obtain some blankets which were to be distributed. The Commissioner, Mr. Mott, said that these statements were got up for an Anti-Corn-law meeting at Bolton ; and now they were reproduced in V.lrlignilent, cC4 l ll= 01 ° 1 40 1 , 1p0) . gwl Ri* .s. tothe same object. 'llhen, as to the other point alluded to by the Hon. Mem ber—the number of uninhabited houses. That also had ');_ . .en investigated by the Assistant-Commissioners. It vas attempted to be shown that the excess of uninha bited houses was attributable to the existing distress. Nfr. Mott's statement was, that the number of houses necessary empty, according to the population, was 16,836 ; the actual number was 20,292 ; but he attri buted the whole excess to over-speculation in building —in fact, to over-production.—(Hear, hear.) The As sistant Commissioner had also entered into the question mooted by the Hon. Member ; viz., the number of deaths, As shown b) the Register-General's Report, which had been laid on the table of the House a few days ago. He would call the attention of the House to the fact, that, until the Bill, establishing the registry of births, deaths, and marriages, there was no return made which could be at all relied on ; so that, in fact, no comparison could be made with any approach to accuracy. If the Hon. Member had any additional facts, and would apprise him of them, he would promise that immediate investigation would be instituted.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He had shortly given the facts of the Report, but it would be laid in extenso on the table of the House. He trusted it would in future induce Hon. Members to be more cautious in making statements upon exparte evidence, and that in future whatever statements they made should be communicated in writing, in order that they might be investigated.—(Loud cheers.) Sir R. PEEL wished to refer to some statements made upon a former evening, as proof of the distress prevail ing in certain districts. He was sure the House would recollect that no one could admit more fully than he did that there was in the manufacturing districts, and particu larly in the cotton manufactures, considerable dis tress, and that the manufacturing population had to submit to severe sufferings and privations. But the question was not as to the extent of that distress, but as to the accuracy of certain statements with regard to that distress. He had said that there was great exaggeration on the subject of the distress ; and as to particular facts, and he had cautioned the House against aggravating the discontent that prevailed by such statements. Before he proceeded to refer to the points to which he wished to call attention he was anxious to notice one statement made by the Hon. Gen tleman who had just sat down with respect to the state of mortality in the manufacturing districts, and to cau tion the House against drawing an inference even from the rate of mortality having increased, which he be believed to be the fact. In these counties, which were the chief seat of the manufactures, there had been an increase •of mortality. At the same time it must be borne in mind that conclusions should not be come to hastily. The Commissioners in their Report had given a caution which the lion. Gentleman, after careful pe rusal, should not have overlooked.—(Cries of " Hear, Hear.) The Register-General stated that the pre valence of increased mortality in those counties which compared the largest amount of population, suggested a course which might be found in the circumstance to which the manufacturing population were exposed. But a further examination showed that not only did the in crease vary, but that there was a decreased mortality in some districts ; and such was the case particularly in Manchester, Salford, Bolton, Oldham, Stockport, and Leeds. Though there had been that increase, yet in the towns which were particularly the seats of manufacturing industry—Manchester, Salford, Bolton, Oldham, Stock port, and Leeds—the mortality had decreased. On a former night he (Sir R. Peel) had referred to the returns from the savings' banks, not as a proof that there was no distress, for of that he was well aware ; nay, more, he expressly said that he did not think the returns from the savings' banks could be altogether relied on as a test of the comfort of the working classes ; but at the same time that no Government, in attempting to collect information respecting the condition of the labour ing poor, would disregard those returns as evi dence of that condition ; and he thought that as far as those returns could be relied on, they rather tended to induce those who felt a deep interest in that subject to take a less discouraging view of the condition of the poor than some Hon. Gentlemen were inclined to do ; and he (Sir R. Peel) gave an account of the state of the deposits of the present year for the last three months. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stockport (Mr. Cobden) in following him (Sir R. Peel) said that the re turns from some of those banks were entirely delusive. Mr. COBDEN—Not delusive but fallacious. Sir R. PEEL—WeII, then, the Hon. Member said fallacious, and that it was not his (Sir R. Peel's) duty to have brought forward returns only for a few months of the present year; but why, said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cobden), did not the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) bring forward returns from the same banks for the years 1837, 38, 39, and 40 ? Mr. COBDEN-1835, 36, and up to 1841. Sir R. PEEL really did not know that the lion. Gentleman mentioned the years 1835 and 1836 ; he had not been present at the time the Hon. Gentleman spoke. He admitted that he had not the returns for those years, but the Hon. Member should have the returns from the year 1837 upwards. The Honourable Gentleman called for returns for those years, and now he said he went further back, to 35 and 36, but he certainly alluded to the years to which he (Sir R. Peel) referred. It was said also, that he (Sir R. Peel) had made particular re ference to the agricultural classes. Now, he made in quiry with respect to the manufacturing districts, and he had selected a particular district which was of the most importance—the district of Manchester and Sal ford—and the following was the result of the informa • tion sent to him respecting the savings' banks in those places. The returns, be admitted, began with the year 1837, and the omission of 18 35 and 186 was not inten tional. The months included in the retain were July, August, and September, of the years 1837, 1838, 1839, 1840, and 1841. In 1837, 1838, and 1839, taking the number of deposits and the number of withdrawals for the three above mentioned months, the average was—Deposits 22,6001., withdrawals 21,0301., show ing a balance of 1,570/. in favour of the deposits. In 1839 and 1840, taking the average of these two years, the amount of deposits was 24,300/, and the withdrawals 23,8001., leaving a balance in favour of deposits of only 500/. In the year 1841, the deposits for the three months Jul), August, and September, amounted to 28,1031., having increased, as compared with the average of the first period, from 22,6001. to 28,103/. ; and the average increase, in 1840, was from 24,300/. to 28,1021. The amount of withdrawals in that quarter of 1841 was 25,3561., leaving a balance in favour of deposits, as com pared with the withdrawals, of 2,8471. The balance of the first period was 1,507/., and in the second period 5001., and in the last period 2,8461. But it might be said, give us the number of depositors, because the number of depositors is of great importance ; because it might happen in the latter period, that although the amount of deposits might be. greater, yet that the number of depositors had diminished, and an argument might•be founded upon that, that the depositors were of the more wealthy class. In the first period, the average of 1837 and 1838, the number of contributors was 4,300, while in the average of 1839 and 1840 the number of contributors was 5,103, while the average number of con tributors in the last year was 6,335.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wish to push the argument to an extent to which it was not entitled. He said again, what he had stated before, that. the criterion of the savings' banks was not one on which he relied ; but still the comparison was favourable. In the course of the same debate the Hon. Member for Manchester— Mr. GIBSON here rose amidst loud cries of "Order." He believed it had been laid down by the Chair that it was contrary to the custom of the House for Hon. Mem bers to allude to what had taken place in a former debate. Ile felt this was precisely an occasion on which the in convenience of the practice was manifested.—(Laughter from the Ministerial benches.) That was his case. Let them observe what was going to take place. The Right Hon. Baronet, having had a week's time for prepara tion—having all the means a Prime Minister had at his disposal to make inquiry—came down to the House to make attacks on the statements of Hon. Members. Now, he (Mr. Gibson) well remembered what had been stated by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lanca shire, that no Hon. Member could so well dress up a case for present and temporary effect as the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth.—(Cries of " Order, order.") But what he (Mr. Gibson) was going to ob serve-was this, that it was not his wish to shrink from the fullest investigation of anything he had said on the subject of the distresss of the country ; but he did think, for the purpose of arriving at the truth, that it was very desirable that an Hon. Member, whose state ment was about to be attacked, should have time given in order that he might come into the House prepared with the necessary testimony to enable him to make his defence to the charges's° to be brought against him.— (Hear, hear, and "Order.") Sir R. PEEL resumed—He confessed that when a statement of very great importance was made in that llouse, he did not think, when his sole object was to as certain the facts, he should be called to order.—(Hear, hear.) Ile would leave it to the house to judge whe ther he was about to be guilty of any infraction of the rules of Parliament, which justified any Member in pro testing against the course that he pursped. He con sidered that it was absolutely necessary that he should make the statement he was about to have made. When it was asserted in that House that with respect to Man chester, thousands were deprived of employment, and thousands suffering under typhus fever, from want of sufficient food—he would appeal to the House whether it was right that a Minister of the Crown, hearing a state ment so appalling as that, could refrain from making inquiry —(Cheers)—and from communicating, in some way or other, the result of that inquiry t o the House. (Cheers.) He left it to the House to judge whether it was wise that the enforcement :of technical rules should permit this country, and the other countries; of Europe, to labour under the impression that thousands were actually s ufferin g in this country under typhus fever, produced by want of food, and that when a Minister of the Crown merely attempted to ad minister consolation and s atisfaction to minds grieved by such statements, an lion. Member should get up and appeal to a rule of the House which prevented reference to the debate in which the assertions were made.— (Cheers.) He had thought that the Hon. Gentlema n himself, from his connexion with Manchester, would hear with satisfaction the statement which he was about to make.—(Much cheering from the Tories.) He (Sir R. Peel) was merely going to state that he had receiv e d from a person of th e hi g hest respectability in Manchester a communication to the effect that great alarm prevailed in consequence of the statement made in the Hous e th at t h ousa nds were dying in that town of typhus feve r ; an d t h e communication was accompanied with retu rns f rom the Fever Hospital, commencing with June in the year 1837, and carried down to May of the present year. In the year 1837 the number of patients ad mi tt e d i nto the Fever Hospital was 1,797 ; in 1838 it w as 1,372 •, in 1839 it was 1,042 ; in 1840 it was 848 ; an d i n 1841 up to the beginning of May it was o n ly 69Q, (Tory cheers.) In order to make the comparison 'perfectly fair the average . of the months of Jun e , July, A ugus t, and September,m those years was calculated, and it appeared that in these four months of 1837, the number of patients received into this hospital was 340—in 1838, 432 in 1839, 203 ;in 1840, 268 ; and in 1841, 197. EVENING SUN (MIT cheers.) Could any man deny that it wa: , 1 :" portant to snake these statements to 11" , 's (Cheers.) He it: , nit ;. : ois it) d 7 •' them. But was any man to .3ily tnat a 7`.11:; Crown was to be prevented, by technical rides— %, ith", reference to party, or commenting on what had o ccurred in a former debate—from removing fro:'n t h e m inds of Members and of the public a delusion of the most rnis chievous kind, and stating to the House the informatio n which he had received ?--(Tory cheers.) Mr. GIBSON said the Right Hon. Bart. had misundey stood him. It had not been his object to prevent the Right Hon. Baronet from making his statement. l only meant to complain that the statement WaS made without giving Honourable Members notice so that they might he prepared to defend themselves.—(Hear, hear.) The effect of the statement would he exactly that which the Right Hon. Baronet said he wanted to avoid—to spread delusion throughotq the country.—(Hear, hear.) Be (Mr. Gibson) lau said nothing about hospitals. He did not think tha t t) phus fevers were admitted into hospitals, on account of their infectious character.—(Great laughter from the Tories.) He had received letters from Manchester, stating that there were thousands afflicted with that fever.—(Hear, hear.) It might easily be understeocl that the word " thousands" was not used in a literal sense, but only to signify that very great numbers were suffering so.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppositio n, much cheering and laughter from the Tories.) 1-1° d Gentlemen opposite might laugh, for they scenic disposed to take the distress and sickness in it veil jocular manner—(Hear)—but he had received letters fronl: physicians in Manchester, stating that great numbers in that town were dying from want of food, and that, lad such cases, death was usually preceded by tYltid symptoms ; so that, in truth, the victim might be s to die of fever. He drew, however, one consolation froin the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, and ,nl, the disposition of the Government to disbelieve that (ii 7 tress existed. His consolation was, that they se 0h t 0 intimate to the people that if the existence of distresi was proved, they were prepared to remove it.— (H ear.) Mr. COBDEN thought that the increase in the h; counts of the Manchester Savings' Bank was owing to t extension of its branches.—(Hear, hear.) He had 311 opportunity also of exposing a fallacy in the'comparisono as to the proportion of houses to population in B olto n and Liverpool. It was proved in the Statistical S eal° ed of the British Association at Liverpool, th a t there wq e in that town between 50,000 and 60,000 persons living in cellars, whereas the persons lodged in th a t nyin ner - Hon. Bolton were very few.—(Hear, hear.) Th e Right Baronet had said that the years 1835 an d 183 6 vver t e , years of fictitious prosperity. Even if he granted that, still it would follow that 1837 was the Yea r 50 - revulsion ; and _ yet the Right Hon. Baronet el l° . t that year, which must naturally be the one of gr eates f distress, as the one from which to prove the progr esst prosperity. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that 1,4,2 ~ persons were admitted into the Fever Hospital in 1 8 y' but he did not say that, according to the Report, a ld__ large number of the sick were refused admittanee•t (Hear, hear.) The course pursued by the Govertilne would go merely to irritate the people.—(Hear, They heard the unanimous voice of the people in the 01 _ e tressed districts, imploring her Majesty not to prorogun, Parliament until the cause of their sufferings we re 1 ,1 quired into, and they refused all inquiry.—(Hear, The Right Hon. Baronet produced a fallacious, he wOO not say a garbled, account of the savings' banks, make it appear that no distress existed.—(Hear, he nr i o l He would, however, implore the Right Hon. Baronet take this question into his consideration as a stAesnian and give it impartial inquiry. —(Hear, hear.) site Mr. DARBY hoped the Hon. Gentleman opp o- would learn from what had passed, to abstain fro_ making exaggerated statements, and spreading unfo unct ed alarm. tha t Mr. C. BULLER had often known statements distress existed to be met by Ministers with the stag; ments that there was no distress.—(Hear, hear.) to this occasion the denial would be very i n convenien t the House, as communications would be received &en": all parts of the country, to the very end of the S essi° calling on the representatives to re-affirm the exis ten of and the extent of the distress. He could not take the testimony of Mr. Mott, the Assistant Commission! o. as conclusive, for he thought it likely that relie vil T officers would be disposed to make light of the distres • Mr. Mott showed that his judgment was not t°s be relied on when he stepp e d out of bier way to give an opinion as to the nin gli ,d, in which the people of England oug ht to be hou se and chose Liverpool as the model, whereas it was w i. known that in that city the people were w orse lour ed and the proportion of houses to pop u l a tion less shit where else in England.—(Hear, hear.) The Bib re° Hon. Baronet first admitted the distress, and the ferred to statistical details to show that the coun tr f c , was never in a better state, and that there never 0 1 % 5 0 little sickness and mortality in Manchester. IC 3 P : people there never had so much money in the stly' ll q a banks. He thought the Government ought to abstain frn On snaking such statements. It would lead to the opinil to that they were disposed to underate the distress, and neglect ft remedy.—(Hear, hear.) aid Lord SANDON hoped that Gentlemen opposite vv° take the advice of the Hon. and Learned Member De. him (Mr. Darby) and abstain from exaggerated sta.% ments which were calculated to mislead and alarm !it public, and to go forth not only over this country M at h over the world.—(Hear, hear, from the Tories.) ho it respect to the typhus fever, it w as well known t" fev er was chiefly for the reception of that class of di s ease t he hospitals were est a bli s h e d, i n or d er to seParlli-Teeen b e . patients from their families.—(Loud cheers.) Hewed that the accounts of th e public distress - exaggerated ; and he had to think that distress had been of late diminishing. Major AGLIONBY expressed his belief that n i l exaggeration of the distress of th e p e ople could o°, tend to diminish the evil, but pf the existence of velJ lamentable distress no doubt could be entertained. Mr. HARDY defended the conduct of the Go yerl l , . meat, who had, he believed, pursued the proper eollr't-g in their investigations on the subject of the statele° which had been made to the House. There had b e e o over-production among manufacturers, and it was t° circumstance he attributed the recurrence of distr" among the working classes. Mr. ALDAM stated that one of the causes of the ails; tress which had of late prevailed was to be found in 1:45 fact, that although there had been no scarcity of IV's° during the autumn, there had not been, a s was the ° 0 during former years, a rise of p: ices in the antlilllof trade. Such a circumstance led to a scarcity the work, and offered an unfavourable prospect for , c l, • coming winter. It was a l so t o be obserr'rly that during the five years which proceeded 1830, nel ir half a million less of goods had been exported than i d le ing the five years which preceded 1840. The P ° .ri c a. tion, however, had increased, while trade had ditnio lsll EXCH EQU ER BILLS FUNDING BILL, jo g Th? CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, h a ': to moved the Order of the Day for the House going in Committee on this Bill, Mr. WILLIAMS took the opportunity of exPr e ; his belief, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman ha" a , recourse at once to a loan, he would have obta iocl better bargain for the public, and would have tnore.Ap curely obtained the object he had in view. The Hon. Gentleman's proposal would, he believed, 5,000,0001. instead of 2,500,0001. t o th e national deb t ;id The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEII 5 of that his arrangement was to be considered rath;l;itli exchanging a debt than of creating a new one. \ le a regard to a loan, he did not thi n k it c ould be ob tal l „0 upon such . favourable t e r ms as th e Hon. Geol l l at seemed to Imagine. A loan h a d never b e en obtain ° the the rate of less than eighteen or nineteen shillings i ll pound. I CASE OF APLEOD. is z ;At Commodore NAPIER w i s h e d to put it to the Hon. Baronet opposite wh e th er it wou ld no t be 2 " 1- , o e ble that Parliament should n ot b e prorogued unti l s° o f settlement had been come to relative to the et' c s %he APLeod, a case which involved cons id era tions ° l ' utmost delicacy —I can n and importance. 0 e Sir R. PEELot give the G a ll a nt Colnr n° any answer upon the subject. t Mr. YORKE hoped that P ar li amen t w ould wa .4 allowed to separate until this important ques tio9 placed upon a safe footing. Alth oug h the Goverflolose, had not been induced to continue the Session il l i c e (pence of the distress prevailing in the country , iitriot plored the Right Hon. Baronet, in the name Of P 00 0 ism, and for the sake of that national fame an d 110 o c4 upon which he pretended to such high aspiratiotioal to prorogue Parliament until the important and el.:, de' w circumstances in which the country was placed ". 'finitely and distinctly understood. isigg The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and a clause I ‘ f tho been agreed to, to the effect that where the 1.01 11 A ct, Treasury were mentioned, any three of them wig I t 0 5 the Bill went through Committee, aid the 'gel ° ordered to be received to-morrow. . EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. the On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of CHEQUER, a clause was inserted i n the Bill, ( 01 , ering the Lords of the Treasury to insert a clause t!00r, propriation ; and the Bill, having gone througl i ce iyed mittee, the Report was ordered to be r e c` morrow. ;r d to° The Population Payme n t s Bill was rea d a db and pasSed. o f,; The other Orders of the Day were then digp bse vlit; and the House a dj ourne d at a Quarter before l' o'Clock. ISIIE S ' SILVER PLATED CORNER IL h . 1. 1 0 A. B. SAVORY and SONS, Manufacturing Silvers bai t the Cornhill, London, opposite the Bank of England, sublitsioit prices of the following patterns of strongly-plate d CC ? kis r DISEIES, with s il ver h an dl es an d e d g es, and silver sble O engraving the crest or coat of arms : The Gadroon Pattern. Four stronc4 1t d Four extra strongV• y- a e tor- nuke% 10 ner Dishes and Covers ~...ClO 10 plated Corner ---- .t 1 3 Four extra strongly-plat d and Covers --... ..... ...., st Corner Dishes and Covers 12 12 , th N.B. The Covers are made with moveable handles, 5:a..0,1 The Flower they form extra dishes. Drawings of the above are fon to any part of Great Britain or Ireland, postage free............ Pattern' , , .... In R TH S. On the 27th ult., at Forest-hill, near Sydenbarn, the la d / 4 Ca On the 29th inst., in Mtagu-square, the lady of Dodd,sq., 1k1.P., f a son. )0 1111' On t h e 28th ult., o in Bentincksere , n, the lady of Jo h n lard, Esq , of a daughter, Esq' of On the 28th Idt„ the lady of Samuel Walke r, Warwick Villas, Harrow - road , of a daughter. ___________---- j DIED o r, widowOn t o h f e th 2 o sth lat u e lt io , hu at o e f l iGitioars,,golVwl.rs. II a . r rie. E t i l' iz a a Y b i etb On the 27th ult., at Seale Lodge, Surrey, A l ' sl Wood, aged 78. London : Printed and Published by MURDO Y 0 ;e4 No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112. tr a..„ the county of Middlesex, Friday, October 1, 7841* CAPTAIN WARNER. Lord INGESTRIE was aware that it was not in strict order to allude to what had taken place in a former de bate, but he trusted the House would permit him to take that opportunity of setting an individual right with the public. He alluded to the assertions which had been made by the Hon. Member for Halifax, and the Hon. and Gallant Member for the Tower Ham lets, relative to Capt. Warner's invention. Those Hon. Members stated that Capt. Warner had refused all in quiry. The SPEAKER said it was quite in order for any Hon. Member, if he had been misrepresented, to set him self right, and in doing so, he would be acting strictly in accordance with the rules and regulations of the House, but he had interrupted an Hon. Member yesterday, and he perhaps ought to have interrupted the Noble Lord before, who was not correcting what had fallen from himself, but was alluding to arguments which had fallen from Hon. Members in a former debate. Lord INGESTRE was aware that he was not strictly in order, but perhaps it would be the only opportunity which might occur, and he hoped he might be per- mated to read a letter for the purpose of setting Capt. Warner right with the public.—(Hear. hear.) The Noble Lord then read a letter dated Bth May, 1840, addressed by Captain Warner to Lord Melbourne, in which Captain Warner stated, that he was wil ling to refer his invention to a commission, as pro posed, but that he wished to substitute a naval for an engineer officer, because the invention was more particularly connected with the Navy, and there fore he wished to nominate Sir William Parker and Lord Ingestrie, instead of an engineer officer, but that, as secrecy was as desirable for the interests of the country as for his own, and as the administration of an oath might be considered objectionable, he submitted that each officer should give his written pledge of secrecy, and he stated that by their de cision he was willing to abide as final. FALKLAND ISLANDS. Capt. FITZROY asked the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies if the report was correct, that a Lieute nant of Engineers had been appointed Governor of the Falkland Islands, and if he would state the reasons which had occasioned that appointment? Lord STANLEY said it was a fact that a Lieutenant of Engineers, Lieutenant Moate, had been appointed Governor of the Falkland Islands; but, as the appoint ment had been made by the late Ministry, he could not state the reasons for it. ARMS SUPPLIED TO THE NAVY. Commodore NAPIER begged leave to take that op portunity of correcting an error which had been spread abroad respecting a statement made by him in the House as to the inefficiency of the arms supplied to the army and navy. It was re ported that the arms of which he complained were furnished to the navy by the late Lords of the Ad miralty. The fact was, that they were supplied when the Right Hon. Baronet opposite was First Lord of the Admiralty—(Hear, hoar)—and he was happy to say that the late Lords had caused such reparation to be made that at the present moment there were not better arms in any service in the world.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had, however, nothing to retract from what he had said. FINE ARTS. Mr. HAWES begged leave to ask the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to act upon the recom mendation of the Committee which sat last Session to consider how the fine arts could be protected. That recommendation was, that the investigation should be further prosecuted by the preseet Parliament. Sir It. PEEL had read with great interest the Report of the Committee of last Session, and the very important evidence taken before it—(Hear)—and he thought that the opportunity afforded by the building of the new Houses of Parliament for encouraging the fine arts ought to be taken advantage of.—(Hear, hear.) It ought, at least, to be considered whether or not the building might be made conducive to the purpose of encouraging the arts.—(Hear.) He thought the Committe had conducted the inquiry in a very satisfactory manner, and the result of their labour would, at all events, be a very great as sistance to any future inquiry. —(Hear, hear.) He be lieved that there were many persons whose opinions the Committee would be glad to receive, and manypoints of in quiry into which they would have entered if their labours had not been prematurely terminated by the close of the Assion. He should have no objection to the reappoint ment of that Committee on account of the manner in which they conducted the inquiry, but as the labours of the Committee could not be continued beyond the sitting of Parliament, he thought a Commission appointed by the Crown, without reference to party, . would be the best means of carrying on the inquiry. The building was intended for the accommodation of both Houses of Parliament, and he thought that both Houses should be represented in any body they ap- pointed to make inquiries respecting it.—(Ll - ear,) But Joint-Committees of both Houses were cumbrous and inconvenient, and, besides, not easily resorted to. He thought, therefore, that there would be an advantage in a Commission appointed by the Crown, consisting of Members of both Houses, and not confined to one party. There would also be an advantage in making inquiries respecting the progress of the Arts in other countries ; which inquiries could be made more satisfactorily and effectually under a Royal Commission than by a Com mittee of both Houses, and, besides, the labours of a Commission would not be terminated by the prorogation of Parliament. This was a matter not at all connected with party, ar.d the building . had formerly been part of the ancient Palace of Westminster. Prince Albert had expressed his willingness to form a part of such Com mission —(Cheers)--and from the great talents and ac complishments of his Royal Highness, and his intimate knowledge of every department of the fine arts, his assistance would tend extremely to promote the useful. ness of the Commission.—(Cheers,) Mr. HAWES hoped the Commission would be an unpaid one.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Biv FEEL thought that there were Members of both Houses of Parliament who would willingly give assistance from mere love of the fine arts--_,(Hear)—and it would be necessary also to have the assistance of persons not in Parliament, whose love of the fine arts would be 4 stillicient inducement, without any pecuniary recompense for Oleic sepvices,-.-7(1i0410 Mr, II4WES 110 only wished the public to he satis fied titat the eniiiinis§inn would not be expensive, Sir R. PEEL wits happy to Inform the Hon, Member or Lambeth and the public, that there was no prospect of any remuneration being required. T.erd SANDON moved for the following returns : An'glo!Spanisl; Jegion—Date when the Le g ion was disbanded ;' Copy of foe British and Spanish Commission, - rel a t.i64- Clams of the British *uejlliaq'''LegiOn in 'the' 'se r vice' Copy "9f 15 113,41,e.# PO , ' guidance' . the' Commissioners ; the date wh,e4 th 4 PenimiSsi9 . ConnilenCed the reception of claims the number of olnino sent in aid 4144icii,te4 % 1