The Sun. — London, England, 1819-02-19 00:00:00

the in ; , ove rno• it bail' itr ook": (10tY 1 , 3 1 rst shut the it of lb ' n ow c_ be filo° tba c , „ 11,0 4 WI the Moral. end reliisiens cond lict o f t h e Colo nists, but also the mode, in whi c h the ed ucat i on of children was conducted. The system of mo rality in t h at New South Wale s was so abandoned, male a n d temate !tiled together without the I:7ceremonya3 enacted b of matrimony. And as to religion, it -y the Governor that there should e only one religion. This injunctio n had been particularly complained of by t rastioh. Many o f Irhit e f a x- They had got a Cl ergyman of their own fubetio vourite persuasion. W hen he exercised the th e scensne of m ass, it was impossibl e to d escr ib e , it being one of the most affecting llnssible. tiati In recollecti on o f the place of their 'very vity, and the 'ceremonies Of ma ss t h ere, the the tears came trickling down their c h ee k s on occasion, weeping for joy at the attainment 4 such a blessing. But wat oes Cs• ? i f of his resolutihond the o for t one relig ernor ion ° ,O I Y, and t hi s b eing an infraction of his .law, he phut up the clergyman in gaol, and sent hint home Is soon as'convenient. The attendance at the re church, front a populatio n of 16,000 or 20,000; seldom exceeded 1700, among sy loon there h ere not above 400 tvonmen! In reference to infor• In4tion front Mr. Marsden, whose virtues he very I,l"ltch praised, the Government, the Holm. Mem i',,e," S aid, bad neglected to fulfil their promise of it 'uB, for the adoption of some plan to amend 'e morals of that establishment. Prostitution, %oto s! , , - oni had arrived to the height of infamy, WaS a Ctii .. 'li ef COMphint 'of Mr. Marsden. By a letter t i r4l !lint , dated oth July, 1 815, after regretting I . „ at 0 ° stcP's had yet been taken for the eme- Cl t : 46o u of the morals of the colonists, he ed that he never remembered such house ,lreal6llgs, robberies, and barbarities of every ii-'cription ; that the wortlen gained a tui3er h existence by open prostitution, and the lt , le n lived by robbery and o u trage ; and that s i) .v . e _ ll , years had now elapse! and 'wilting was i ts` je _for the improvement of the esrabl i i t shme u ti o t : I t r . farmer could not keep any of his prot lc . e, . , t4 l be nut the risk of being robbed by his set' ti' to offer the plunder as the reward of pros ii iiciri'lwn. Receptacles of vice were open at a th I 's, and the male servants had easy access . to oohs,, but abandoned women. In looking " ' f el' the l ist of the year preceding the departure lisittl'e last shin, the GoVernor had licensed 52 anti • Instead of inquiring into the character ii te pee s , of the persons applying for those -A s '' s i he had tsranted them indiscriminately.— si . 'barn' 1 b - 44i5 a . , . , 1011eo woman, who wa s . wife to Bob I . s t , wt r l : 0 rlluckster Bob, aitotoarnioduisnfetlilloewlol•etlilt : I , le,„„ vis ithad obtained a lice nce ; 'ti er "us authorised to keep, she lodged cha t4s of the most abandoned description pro i-cuat , us` 'Y. Th e HonOttra hle Member understo o d to I)sp t til e v . so us ~,tilcavernor had given tickets of license . I -lit, feet -ao came from England well suppl i ed fetes‘'l t ' e l• In short, New South Wales a di', British Government, t file , 'lsrace to the iratnas'ecuttilation of all crimes and vices.— cl ~"'"e remote part of the colony, a farmer atiti sent to Sydney for three Pers" h s eh v oid, b ' t qs,,l accustomed to farming ; w h en, . 44 ' e ttet e '','"r sent him two tailors and a pick tl,`l, ti . '4'lle expense of the transport service Ils'it‘ t ' i4 hlishment had been so enormous, B ets is‘v,"ald b e much better t o employ the cth-. Vi'erisiiirriellitemiary houses at borne, instealof, 4 , ; e1)4 (11: 4 a colony of prostitutes and thieves Is r) '''l s ee'l accused of being an enemy to p . si . .- '''icaf :tinislimsot H was so far from being un 11,talte ‘ l tl , . 4 . that -. be thought personal punishment kt 9 !' I r'fi;rt I aid a good and neces sh- N I ' eat proper, .1 . Itk to ecti ve of ct .i„,, or v i ce, But the best Iriritl ttiinnli,iltnent was the facility of detection, f lse.e e"usequent prevention of the progress of tett), Such a system would do more toward s li t1111115,41,' 4011 the diminution of crime, than a 1, 11 0 1 E 3 t he t he statute books. He begged par -- c ot C e House for detaining ,them so long. ti l f 4il. in ie t . , "e( l by moving for a Committee to in 't‘r ), a nd to consider the practice or system ell'"es4LPN'tation of Convicts to New South s'qn s ; a "d also to inquire into the state of • that t 1 -rst 1 1 a ( 0 : 1 43 Government. Kestieti .`AsTestieson admitted that the Ho n. tiNis,, l4 " was actuated by the best and purest t ,: 11 i ti 40,n, th e occasion ; but viewing the ques n Ils tn t touffierent manner, lie would not give his Cs ent . the motion. He approved high ly of , 41 be i . inlientS Which had governed the Hon. illalLs,,,q soot his Lordship was of opinion, that est.°"t a dopted the best way of obtaining his 41, t lio ns if sited (his Lordship) could prove this to 147'1),. e -s e, he hoped the Homo Gentleman would ~,.'tik i mi lle a convert to the same opinion. It ‘ ti ' 4 8 ;:tothe .recollection of the House, that there . t rac e!' is Position already in contemplation, of 44 tice had been given, that would ern qi'lle, lie.r)bject of the Hon. Member in a better tilt G en t '4lLordship recommended the Honour t) Lsielitan not to press his motion. If tltes4,it'4stip made it out that there was no ti ai ttt t hY f°l' this insulated Committee, he would I t : proe Honourable Member's acquiescence to tott fiksitioos His Lordship then read an ex sittt tbs ° l ll l the concluding paragraph of the Ite -olt,ii, li c e ou the subject by that bight authority , ' ° '"illy, in which Sir Samuel, in the year 111-satipve it as his opinion, that no further steps t 144 el:kelt taken till the result of the inquiry cotn -01, ily Government, of which he very much lt,°tAlite."• Armed with such an authority, his Otil d 'I) flattered himself that the Hon. Member I'ti 4titia!knowledge that his motion was useless 010.'Itst) i.eessary. His Noble Friend (Lord Ba 4, and adopted every means of gratifying the l o l tit uti :( l the Hon. Member, by sending out and n i c) t,s s , d g a Committee of Inquiry on time very at ~,, , e r to repor t on the means of ameliorating tie ,tooottient of tiie Colony, and for the plans to 1,,,e k ot tl as most likely to render it useful to tl"tett ;et' Country This new Inquiry pro itt‘i'iltstf Gno",ledrnicneeritita.inly contravene the mem- The Honourable Member I:te,e,isegloaatfed of the information which he had kt.,(IY 446°,1'1 several individuals who had to r ' l shi t , e° l 'om New South }Vales; but his c i ) 4(itt4(ll I%3:irte(l bi.M, that he had no objection i. ()terilrile ely information in the possession t, ) sti gitt s nt• So that the Honourable Metn , • tr,,, ave liithssif , Ir t usle rs f, the exposure of applying l et' ri b Y I • )1. what Would be more liberally 1 / 4 lis t "a Ma' s , - to Il i% L I s tY s servants. With all de °ll')urable Member, anti with . - t vas? praite to his i .'mmanitv, his irsoidsh;p thought it 'would he no reproach to his (Mr. Kennet's) nature or jodgmeur s if he consented td prefer the superior information of Government to the un authenticated assertions of individuals, however respectable in character. Ills Lordship reminded the Hon. Member ttritt there had been many in stances i which he had been deceived, and by which he had hazarded his repniation. His Lord ship ludicrously regretted the absence of the Member for Warwickshire . , as he worth!, no doubt, have returned the Hon. Member his warmest thanks for the happy compliment he paid his consti tuents, by comparing their stare of morality to that of the convicts of Botany Bay !—(llear, hear ! and loud laughter. the Honourable Gentleman however carried his op i sosition notions to thwe who composed his Majesty's Army awl Navy, Ire must beg leave to differ from him. the Honourable Member had been very happy in his comparison whet) lie brought in his reference to the practice of the sailors or soldiers on hoard a ship. But his Lordship confessed, that a pas sage by sea, whether in a large or a small vessel, in a ship of war or in a packet, with sailors or soldiers, or even with ladies, was not a desirable conveyance at any time !—(Laugh.)--It was ne cessary, however, on particular occasions, to adopt such a conveyance, and therefore he, as well as the Hon. Gentleman, must yield to certain emergencies. But with regard to the transport service for convicts, it was impossible to com mand at any time that kind of weather which would please the Honourable Member. Govern ment could not wait for that settled weather, those gentle breezes, or propitious gales, so finely al luded to by the Hon. Member. The law had passed its fiat, and Government were imperatively called upon to obey the injunctions, by the exer cise of the Executive department. But the mo tion now submitted to the House, Iris Lordship considered as forming part of a great whole to annoy or to embarrass his Majesty's servants. It reminded him of the objections started by the Gentlemen on the opposite side on the subject of the Bank. They were not contented with a Committee, to comprehend in its consideration every thing Which Parliament wanted, as con nected with the Bank, but they strenuously re commended the plan of instituting several separate Committees, namely, a Restriction Committee, a Committee for the Resumption of Cash Pay ments, and a Committee to consider the Amount of Paper Issues. If all these Committees had been instituted, each would have only served to obstruct the other, and thus the purposes of inquiry would have been greatly retarded and distracted.— But the House judged otherwise, and would not agree to separate Committees, but to one Com mittee only, entrusted with powers for a general survey of the whole affairs connected with the Bank. In the present case there was evidently a similarity of system. But his Lordship hoped that the House would see the futility of multiply ing Committees, when the grand object would be better aud more satisfactorily obtained by one in dividual Committee invested with the necessary powers. In the Committee which would in the course of a few days be proposed, he would con gratulate himself on the able assistance which he should receive from the two Honourable Mem bers (Sir James Mackintosh and. Mr. Bennet.) — The one would arm them with instances or re ferences of policy, and the other enrich the Com mittee by his illustrations of the Criminal Code. The Committee which he intended to propose would embrace every subject which the two Hon. Members had premised they therefore would not refuse their assistance, sanction, and autho rity. Bestowing praise on Sir J. Mackintosh for his laudable intentions, his Lordship said, that the Committee which he now noticed could not complete its inquiry without an inquiry also into • the merits of the laws now in force and acted up on in New South Wales. It would not take in the whole range or scope of the Learned Gentle now, but it would answer all the purposes of in vestigation, it being intended to confine its in quiry to that part of the criminal code now exer cised in that colony, and not to comprehend in its survey the whole of our criminal law. His Lordship deprecated the fashionable mode used by Gentleman on the other side of the House. Gentlemen who take delight in stigmatizing and exposing any trifling deformities of our laws. It could never be wise or prudent in any State to stigmatise its laws. It was causing discon tent at home, and exposure abroad. The most perfect system tnig,ht be found fault with and condemned ; but it was not politic to en gender discontent. Gentlemen, when they found themselves convinced of the defects al luded to, ought to propose an immediate remedy, instead of detracting from the merits of our whole constitutional cotle, which had maintained our li berties, and made us the envy of the world. The best mode of diminishing crime was by example ; anti he believed every Gentleman would concur with hint in this policy. His Majesty's Govern ment did not wish to stifle inquiry. They wished to encourage it, but their they wished to encou rage it upon fair and safe principles. They could not sanction a dangerous plan, to the extent of which there could be no end. They meant to take a middle course ; to arrive at the truth the speediest way, and not to hazard the whole by any extravagant speculation. His Majesty's servants were not inclined to lower a system which had been admitted ou all sides as the best system of jurisprudence ever seen or invented by the genius or wisdom of man ! His Lordship concluded by moving the previous question. Mr. WILBERFORCE differed widely from the Noble Lord who had just sat down. His Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh) must allow him to say, that there were trimly parts of the Report alluded to on the of of New South Wales which had been neglected by Government. In his Noble Friend's reply his Honourable Friend ire had not offered one word on the im provement of morals in New Soot!) %Vales. The honourable Member sincerely lamented that what he had heard that night, which was a confirma tion only of what he had received out of doors, the abandoned depravity of the colonists in New South Wales, had reached to the very utmost height of profligacy and wickedness ; and yet his Noble Friend had contented himself with sittin g awn without ads ancing one word on this inns portant part of the subject. rn the exercise of the lan' s for New South tildes, svinV deny British subjects the benefit of the British Constitution? Wh y put British subjects, although Convicts, under the arbitrary power of any Governor So tar from the Report of Sir Samuel Romilly, whose loss no man more sincerely deplored than he did, makiug an argument against the inquiry now proposed by his Honourable.Friend (Me. Bennet), it directly made for it. He la mented the wretched state of public morals, as properly and feelingly drawn by his Hon. Friend, whose exertions on this occasion merited the highest encomiums. It could not be denied, that the tolOnY now under consideration had been greatly neglected by Government. His .Majesty's servaats for a long series of years had other and far more important pursuits. But during the years of peace which we had enjoyed, it did not appear that any step had been taken to amend the morals of the Colony now under the consi deration of the House. He bestowed the warmest encomiums on his Learned Friend, Sir James Mackintosh, and vindicated him from the allega tions of his Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh), who had indicated as if his Learned Friend meant the total revision of our Criminal Code, when in fact he Only meant the revision of that part which constituted the Criminal Code. or capital punishment, of New South Wales. He implored his Noble Friend to agree to the motion of inquiry. it would he honourable to Government, and satisfy the country at large ; as by an inquiry into the state of the jails, it was not connected with the inquiry into the state of the Government, and mode of administering justice for New South Wales. We might look into the works of Howard, or another author who presented tatraunt in vary° on the subject ; but as to the principle or Object of intlairy, it was totally unconnected with it.— Lle therefore again earnestly implored his Noble Friend to agree to the motion. Although the convicts had been prisoners.it was not the meaning of the law that they should be wholly lost to so ciety. It was the meaning of the law, by a judicious punishment, to recover them to society. If the House were to wait for the inquiry into jails, as intended by his Noble Friend, it would be a long time indeed before they could expect any end to their labours. There were at this time 14,000 or 20,000 individuals of New South %Vales waiting anxiously to learn the resolution of Parlia ment on the improvement of their morals. He praised Mr. Cooke as an ornament to the moral world, wino in his researches had performed the greatest acts of heroism. After many other ob servations, he lamented that Government should indicate a disposition to stifle the inquiry, or to perform it in a slovenly manner, and con cluded by supporting the motion. Lord CASTLUREAOIi and Mr l WILBERFORCS mutually explained. MR. GOULBURN contended that the statement of his Noble Friend had been mistaken by the Member who spoke last. He argued that by go ing into a Committee now, the inquiry would be carried on on ex parte evidence. He Hien referred to a letter in his hand, written by a gentleman in orders, as respectable as Mr. Marsden himself. It was very long, and was a satisfactory proof of the improvement of which the convicts were ca pable, and of the impressions entertained on that point by some of their own body. He lamented tine difficulty that was generally felt in providing sufficient religious instruction, not for New Soma Wales alone, but for every other Colony, and not of Clergymen of the Established Church alone, but also of every other sect. He alluded to the case of the It ish Priest, O'Flynn, Who bad been sent by the Governor from New South kVale s .— This circumstance was true, but the case was of such a nature as to afford sufficient justification to the Governor. O'Flynn had some time since ad dressed a letter to Lord Bathurst, requesting that he might be permitted to proceed to New South Wales as a Roman Catholic Bi shop. On application respecting this Mall to tine heads of the Catholic Church, it was under stood that lie was in every respect improper.— This individual subsequently went to New South Vales clandestinely, and as soon as his character was made known to the Governor he was driven front the colony. He remarked, generally, upon the impossibility of establishing in a Colony, so constituted as was New South Wales, the same regulations of society as in one wherein moral and social principles had been longer recognized. The state of morals in New South Wales was not in ' deed such as could be desired; but no censure could be attached to the Government. Ain argument had been drawn by the Hon. Gentleman in prooi of the want of morals in the Colony, that not more than 400 females were in the habit of at tending divine service ; but no argument should be deduced from this circumstance, without tak ing into consideration the propoition between tire number of males and females inn tine Colony. He held in his hand a paper, sliming the num ber of convicts transported within the years 1816 and 1818, from which it appeared, that the males. were 3,535, and the females 291.—(Hear:1)—With respect to the build ings appropriated in the Colony for the accommodation of female convicts, he had to state, that two years sioce a factory was in con templation, but it being at that time strongly re commended to tine Governor, that three churches were necessary, lie suspended tine factory until the churches were built ; and now, the churches being finished, tine factory was in a very forward state of preparation.—(Hear, hear!)--l-le was very ready to give every information on the subject that might be required, but it was impossible for the House to undertake airy further inquiry until the result of the Inquiry by the Commission al ready appointed was ascertained. Sir By,sM MARTIN read several extracts from private letters from convicts, expressive of their gratitude for the kindness and attention with which they had been treated daring the voyage ; also an extract from a letter from Sir John Gore, Commander in the Medway, stating, that he had visited the Baring transport ship a few days after th e vi s i t o f th e Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bennet), and that the convicts were comfortably and well treated. Ile expressed his indignation that Dr. Halloran had had a cabin to himself, tithe!) better than was usually assigned to Lieu ;auaatr, ijt frigatea, The Bon ever, acknowledged, that in the Surrey convict ship, fifty persons had died. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH felt called upon to Sa' something on this question. His Hon. Friend hart not said, as was implied by the Hon. Member op posite, that the Noble Lord wished to stifle in (piny, for such an expressjon would he unpar Ha menrary ; but he said, the inquiry about to be in stituted would have no effect, The two last speakers had forgotten the question. One of them, indeed, hall refuted the whole of what had railer) from the Noble Lord who sat next to him, lie was of opinion with his Hon. Friend, that the inquiry proposed by the Noble Lord would pro.. duce no result. The question before the House was not whether inquiry was necessary, but in what manner it was to be carried on. 'Those who were acquainted with the most deplorable part of our modern history were aware that nr:any► Irish Catholics had been sent out to New South Wales ; and was it now fair for Government to take credit for consolting with the Catholic Hie rarchy how they should supply them with reli gious instruction ? a point on which one of the last speakers had addressed the House in such a►t exultit►g tone. it was a disgrace to the successive Administrations in this Country that this had not been done before. He adverted to the neglect of the system which had been adopted by our ances tors, that of giving to our Colonies something like the British Constitution, and concluded with supporting the motion. Mr. CANNING did not think, much as lie knew his Honourable Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) con curred with him in admiting the British Consti tution, that lie would become - the ally of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in wishing to bestow it on colonies of every description of existence. For it was not many years since they (Mr. C. and Mr. W.) had fought side by side to exempt Trinidad from the blessings of the British Constitution, and keep it under the con troul of the Crown.—(Laughter.) —The Learned Gentleman had said that there was not a rock in the West Indies on which the British Constitu (ion had not sprung up with the existence of a British colony. But his observation ought to have applied to acquired colonies, and not to a nest of convicts. When our forefathers had sent convicts to a burning clime, with a degree of care, which, when compared with that now displayed towards them, was like a cipher to thousands, would he say, " commend me to the wisdom of our an cestors, for they exported nothing but specimens of the British Constitution ?"—(Laughter.)—The Learned Gentleman was, he believed, the only philosopher who, standing on the pier at Sheer ness, and contemplating the departure of a cargo of redeemed couriers, he meant redeemed from a se verer punishment, would tell a friend, " what do you think we are exporting, not the relicts of crime, but materials to build the British Constitu tion t ''—(Laughter.) —He did not think, how ever, that the philosophy of the Learned Gentle man would win many partisans to his cause ; or that many would wish to establish in Botany ilay, Houses of Lords and Commons, and a hierarchy of universal toleration.--(Laughter.)—He then contended that the Opinions expressed by his Noble and Hon. Friends (Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Gotilburn) were not contradictory. They both agreed on the necessity of an inquiry into the state of convict ships, and the objection of his Uon. Friend only applied .to that part whirl► formed a charge against Government, for which no case whatever was made. hit were presented as a matter of accusation, he (Mr. C.) should declare it to be false,eand should throw it in the teeth of the accusers. If it were brought as a subject of an inquiry, he should admit it to form a part of the matters to be investigated. The Learned Gentleman wished the Honourable Mover to withdraw the part that related to convict ships, and to let tine rest fall into the inquiry of his Noble Friend. But in doing so he would give argument, for the ships formed the connecting links between the two questions. He then alluded to what had been said respecting the abolition of the punish ment of death. While Hotfoot - able Members were excitiog all the sympathies of the House for those who had offended against the laws, he hoped they would not forget, that whilst they sat to exercise judgment in mercy, they were also the guardians of the life and property of others, and that these were interests in society for which they ought to have some regard. To, entertain the subject in the way in which tine Hon. Gentleman, and the petitions presented to the House, brought it forward, would excite an expectation that the punishment of death could be done away with without any other substitute in its stead, and might endanger the peace of so ciety to such an extent, that no device of that Honourable Gentleman's could restore it again. He was the more afraid to entertain questions of this kind when be saw that a person en• lowed with abilities and dexterity in debate as his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) had this night displayed, had suffered himself to be betrayed into the proposition, " that we were daily witnessing executions, for crimes of which we were ourselves guilty, by not having educated the people." If secondary punishments were once made effectual, then there could be but one voice for diminishing those of a capital nature. But he could not agree to co►nmence at the ot t her end, and to say that we had a Criminal Code, when we bad none; for our laws had not been produced prospec tively. They had not been written on► 12 tables. Neither, like the Chinese legislation, had they an ticipated every possible shade of offence, and affixed every additional bamboo of punishment.—(Laugh. ter.)—They had risen in the same succession as offences, and we should not now begin by trampling upon the whole system, and thus pulli►►g down the best safeguard we had for life, proper ty, and traoquillity. Convinced that sufficient in (pity could be attained in the Committee pro posed by the Noble Lord, because it would be pit sited in t h e most adVMHIIgeOIIS mariner, he should follow his example, and vote for the pre. vious question, in order to leave the question opert to investigation. Sir J. MACINTOSH arid Mr. CANNING mutually ex plained. Mr. TIERNEY had been accused of a disrosit'on to tura serious things into jests, nit if be bale. such a diSpUSitio.l, NIA :111 the powei Of the ni g h t H onoura b le Gentleman, he did not think he should have been able to make a cumicek speech on a subject of so much Serious importa:ice as that ttttt h•Ille. A • ja!- coo/ `O4 jog 10' 4 11 : Ailo