The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-17 00:00:00

If e P r i i q(" —lt ".';! g ; Prev gyp, 5C 0 C" 1300 • °te ie. d rwtil; 00. . zi j u itoo of t!' ia dis . '" f t f to ehi s „ n i ec e e .4 ; loest 'they were nil Ig ch a nat ure , th at the mere proposition of ti ti ) ent, in a time like the present, would subject author of - them to such an out - cry as would el id very strongly to diminish h i s means of tteefuluess. In order to render them effectual, the -author should wait for a calmer period to pro- Pose them. He differed toto ceelo from Mr. t ) .. .Wen's p r i nc i p l es , particularly th a t e ncou raging the increase o f population. But still he -thought " "it there were some of the details capable of pro- Ilecin g benefit. The Hon. and Learned Gentle :4"n approved of Mr. Owen's principle of sub aleetieg the infant mind at an early period to the im pressions of education. In elucidation of this 1 " 1 "ciple, be referred to an establishment for edu retiou of children in Switzeilaud, very much on ' l, e plan of Mr. Owen, and diff er in g horn it only inasmuch as one was adapted to an agricultural totretry, the other to a state of crowded popille li"th Nearly the same system was now going on kvithi n a few yards of 'where they wete now and going on successfully.—(Hear 1 .) — de believed that a more honest and amiable man than Mr. Owen did not exist. Truth and the b enefit of • mankind were the great objects he hid in view. Ile was totally free from the usual v4 nity of projectors. With his assistance, he 1 --Nlr. B.), the Hon. Member for Braunber, and tom e other friends, bad, by their own means, c ommenced to put a plan of a seminary into prac flee, whit') was going on so well, that they ex- Peered from it the greatest benefits. The', had already a year's experience of it ; and it might be leen and examined by any person who wished to 11.'O and see it in Brewer's Green. As ta the goes lint' before the House, he Was anxious for in 41nirv. tha' the good parts of Mr. Owen's System tniehe he separated trout the had—(l-ieer. hear !) The Cureetcreeon or the EXCHEQUER eXptes I lls happiness to see that Gent lemee, on all sides of the H ouse , were errally ready, graciously, to 'consider any plan which professed to have in, view the relief of the distress ot the people. This was certainly a Most grateful spectacle, and most serve conaonce the country, that whatever diflerence 'of parties nrigiot exist in that House, there was no of feeling, no division of sentiment., that count illeifere with the fair and liberal considera tion of any propositiim designed for the general rood —gilds'', hear !)—On these grounds he wits Pleese o with the debate, although he could not agree to the ii ntinn. For lie could toot consent to give the sanc:ion of the high au thority of that House to - a plan which was ), ot only wild and visionary in its prin , iple, but actually Oaneerous to the Sate. He gave .credit 0,,e40 tor all the qualities escriheol I n him be th, Learned and Hon Gentleman who had just sat eown ; for he had heard from -Gen tlemen who had been at Lanark the most .favour. able aCeount•• of the operation of that Gentle- Inan's system, But yet lie could not shut his eyes- to the general adoption.of such a sys'em.— Ilis conception Of that dauger was formed from the Irtegeteee of Mr. Owen himself, on submitting plan to tie cousideretioe of a Punlic Meet ilug at the City of London Tavern in 1817, when that Gentleman distincily declared, that lie was not of any religion in the world, aud that he be lieved all religious wete rounded in error. Far ther, Mr. Owen sae!, that taxation was a curse, lid that all law mid government wete abeses.— tie did not quote these passages with a view to propose any prosecution, but merely to shrew the House that a plan should not receive its counte neece which e according to its ant boteinvolved a priu cinie,and was likely to teed to cousayeences subver.. *lye of all the religions and governme sits in the world. en these grounds, he ehought that thiS motion I Hight to be negatived, and that no inqooiry should be instituted by .that House which might appear to sanction Air. Owen's phi), especially as it op- Peered from svhat had bean stated by the Learned Gentleman who haul just sat down, that whatever *as useful to that plae with respect to education, /night be-acted upon without any interference oti th e part of that House. But it appeared that Mr. Owee's plan was discountenaticed by the un biassed j u egment of the public; for at the first Meeting which he addressed et the City of' Lon. don Tavel"), his propositions were rejected ; and on the mot toteof a ‘Vorthy Alderman it was voted that a Parliamentary Reform. .which with some "hinds was it panacea for every evil , was the only letnedy for the distress of the people. It was, 110 doubt, true, that at n second public meeting a Committee was appointed, and a subscription voted for makieg an experiment of this plan ; but then it tinned out that in this country of unbounded liberality —tear i ii a city of unbounded wealth, th e subscription completely failed. With this ceideece then of the public opinion, and with the -recollection of what he haul quoted as to Mr. - PVett's sernitneots, he thought the House would .feel that this project could nut be consistently en tertained. Mr. J. SMYTH bore testimony to the character of Mr. Owen, particularly as it was evinced in the conduct of his establishment at Lanark. It 'Tittered, indeed, that such was the system upon 'illici t this establishment was conducted, that 'luring a period of limner') years not one of its members bad ever been accused, or taken be foie a Magistrate for any offence. This was, he believed, more than could be said of any society in the empire, not even excepting that House itself ; and was it - trot incombeut upon Perlia inent to have some general experiments made of system produCtive of such happy effects ? He lairrented Mr. Owen's declaration of the senti inents quoted by the Chancellor of the Excite spier, especially with respect to religion ; but he argued that these belltiMellls CORI(' form no 1 . 8- ' 6 1111 , J objection to a lair trial of - the plan under consideration. tee CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. Mr. 11.1cAano, in delivering his opinions, wtnt Wrote at large into the general state of the coun ttY. He said he was at war with Mr. Owen's tpe c o m i ve pl an , a s not founded on sound prin. tipk b 01 political economy. He denied that ma t:hiocry could ever do mischief. It was true that particular branches it might produce too much t►r a COMMOdity, en;t►►n or cloth for example, but the moment that was felt it would be withdrawn itoui that and employed in other ways. But I,lit• Owen, the ct►emy to machinery, yet wish tti to introduce a new IlltiChitit:Ty of greater I ..ti vr „e, Ile woJtI in:tau:2e the a:tn Though be drift:led so much from this Gentle man, he was for appointing , the Committee, were it only to ascertain, if true, that spade husbandry was much more productive than any other. This was a question of the utmost importance ; as the greatest desideratum of the pt esent time was to supply a demand for labour., He was no friend to dividi ng the country into parallelograms, according to Mr. Owen's proposition, nor to a community of goods. Every man should be independent anti work for himself, in which he was likely to 'do most, and was at the same time equally working for the community.— He expressed his agreement with Mr. Brougham on the question of population, and argued that the roily remedy for the distress thus occasioned was to be ((mod in an increase of capital. Gen tlemen seemed to have a very erroneous notion when they called out for employment, merely em ployment, for the poor, Employment %via molting, and could do nothing, sunless it was founded on an augmentation of capital. It was otherwise only ex cliauging one evil for another, by withdrawing fonds to create work from where they were in ope rat ion giving Nark. On the subject of our distresses here were, he thought, smite evils for. which Government was not to blame. The great cause might be discovered in the natural state of the errantry with a great capital, a great population, and a limited soil. The consequence of this was a lowness of profits, and wherever the profits were low, the capital would have a tendency to seek countries where they were higher. If these countries, by a wise system of Government, so wadded security to the other inducements, capi talists would more readily overcome their repug nance to have their property not under their own eye. When capital was diminished, the poor tie cessarily got Out of employment, and great dis tress ensued. These wet e natural causes of dis tress, which no man on earth could control. But had we not added artificial causes to these Did not even our Corn Laws_ by rendering wages high and profits consequently low, increase the inclination for capital to leave the country, while the same laws hurt our competition with fo reigners. The same arguments applied to onr com mercial re,trictio o s. The prohibitions on foreign commodities made those things dear, which we might otherwise purchase cheap ; and this was done in retaliation; but lie color:tried that we ought always to be allowed to go to the cheapest market, as by this means our capital would be im proved. The National. Debt—t hat system of bor rowing at compound interest—and accumulation of taxes, was another great cause of deterioration. The taxes were so enormous, that it became a question with many whether they should quit the country and enjoy the capital they had realited in another. In these various ways the sources whicli would give employment to the population were diminished and dried up. Last year they had adopted a judicious course to remedy this evil in part, by agreeing; to return to specie. It was witeooo, not to do this at once, but to devote two or three years to the change. They ought to do the same with the Corn Laws, and return by degrees to a good system, which should leave us unfettered in our purchases of grain. A similar plan would be beneficial to our commercial relations ; the more free they were 'he more advantageous for the country. It we proceeded as we were doing now, our errors would he eternal. As for the National Debt, he was aware that his opinions might be thought extravagant upon that sub ject, but he would 'pay 'it off by one great sacrifice of capital.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He would not in , that case think that justice re quired him to pay at par ; the market price would be fair towards the stockholder. And with re gard to the objection, that the sale of lands to meet this demand would be ruinous, it was easily obviated by observing that the footled proprietor paid woulu have his capital to invest itt the-pur chase of land, or in lending to the fainter or land lord, especially when Government was no longer borrowing. We had not yet come .near , the bounds and extent of our national greatness and prosperity. It was only in comparison with other countries that our distresses seemed so great, and if we only contrived to counterbalance the ,ternp• rations which were held out to invest capital abroad, we should wee very different times from the past. He was for going into this i nqu iry. Mr. N. CALVERT thought the spade-husbandry quite inefficient, as it wad not calculated to go through the year. Mr. \VAITHMAN considered the plan to be wild and visionary, b u t .would vote for a Committee, were it only to demonstrate its absurdity. 7 Be was also of opinion that it might be partially use ful ; and concluded by inveighing agaihst the weight of taxation as the cause of all our na tional distress. Lord ALTHORP agreed in the principles, _laid down by illr. Ricardo ; but, with respect to the Corn Laws, held, that the country'hati better pay a tax to secure a supply at home, than ,to dimi nish the returns already too small to the agricul tural interests. lie was against the motion, as, if they went into Committees merely to prove the absuidity of plans submitted to them, as sug gested by the Hon. Alderman, they would find they had little time to attend to any business of real utility. As 'for the spade husbandry, if it possessed the advantages stated, the public would soon adopt it, and ought to be left to follow its own inclination. Mr. CALcnArr was very adverse to the plan, and advised the withdaawal of the motion. bir C. I3URRELL complimented Mr. Owen on his humanity, but could not praise his judgment. His plan, if acted upon, would ruin all the little traders in the kingdom. The spade-husbandry had been tried in hop countries, and therefore it was not new; it sometimes succeeded, and some times failed. It was absurd, however, to calcu late upon , it from the result of a few seeds sown in a garden. The uantity thus produced could ne ver by possibilit} be grown on a single acre of land. The system would indeed be bringing agri culture back to a state of nature, and not one tenth part of the country could be tilled by it. He too would alter the'Corn Laws, but exactly for an opposite purpose to that of the lion. Gen tleman (Mr. Ricardo.) Mr. ‘l 7 msexFottets took a similar view of the question with the Chancellor of the &chequer. 'ilia basis of Mr. Owen's plats watt a system of morals contrary to Christianity, and while th 4 supported Christianity as the . only foundation o: morality, they must oppose that plan. It it were not in their power to repair those evils, Le thought the House should at least show an anxiety to alleviate the distress of the suffering districts. An Hon. Member - behind hint (Mr. Ricardo) had spoken of the misapplication of ca pital as heing one of the causes of the distresses of the country.. There was no one to whom he lis tened with greater, pleasure, or for whose neinion he had greater deference, titan that Hon. Gentle man ; hut although he differed with him on many points cm this subject, be entirely actordcd with him in thinking that land could not with propriety be looked upon es capital. It was not possible to turn it, e.,tr make those ready changes with it, which could he so easily effected with capital. It was not possible to believe, that with great wealth on the one hand, and great distress on the other, there was that want of benevolence in the country as to allow this latter description to perish in the absence of their aid. He was sure that all most unite in a common desire to alleviate them. He also agreed with his Hon. Friend, that this country had not yet seen its last days of greatness and prosperity. It would go on in its present course—in the true road to prosperity— in the way of education on moral principles. Without good morals there could be no political vigour. It was not to be supposed that we, who had been discovering, to the whole extent of the moral end political world, a regular gradation of intellectual improvement, should cease to make that progress onrselves which we had been so successful in teaching others to do. Mr. Alderman IVoon, while he objected to some parts of the plan, thought it rather hard that Ministers should at once reject it, when it was, in fact, the first which had been sehmitted to them calculated for the general employment of the poor. If his Majesty's Ministers would come for ward with any measure which might equally be nefit the poor, by employing them in redgeming the waste lands of this country, he had no doubt the Hon. Baronet woald withdraw his motion : but he trusted he would not do so in any other case. Sir CHARLES BURRELL explained, 11r. MAXWELL said, he hoped tire•Honse would not refu t e the committee., Mr. D. W. HAUvEY defended Mr. Owens theo logical principles, which he conceived the Hon. Member, (\lr. Wilberforce,) no doubt, tininten. tionally on his part, had misrepresented. He sup ported the motion. Sir Wm. DE CRESPIONY shortly replied ; and addressing himself to t he ministerial benches over the table, asked ii Hon. Gents. were preimred with any,meastire on the subject No answer being re , turned, the lion. Baronet pressed a division ; and seem dinely; . strangers being ordered to wi:hdraw, the House divided ; when the numbers were— For the Committee Against it l4l •Majority -125 SCOTCH NIANUFACTURING DiSTRICTS. Mr. Max wELL tote to call the attention of the House to a subject which appeared to him to he of so much importance, that he felt he s , ,ould have been guilty of a great neglect of duty had he not brought it under their. consideration.— He alluded to the distress existing in the manu facturing districts of Scotland„.lind more espe cially in the county of Renfrew. In that county the manufacturers were reduced to such a state as to be utterly incapable of self-support. After de scribing at considerable length the nature and the extent of the distress in that county, the Honour ableMember proceeded to observe, that several subscriptions had been raised for the purpOse of alleviating it. These being at length found sufficient, and all hope being abandoned of being ,able themselves to remelts the evil, a petition was presented- to his Majesty's Government de scribing the local distresses, and adverting to the existence. of that , insubordination which always, accompanied wont. It could not be expect ed that the county of Lanark should support the numerous' strangers who hadibeen brought thither for the purpose of Working in the. Manufactories, but who were now .nuenaploy.ed—When he stated, among other considerations, that the rental of the. county was almost entirely swallowed' up by this evil, he conceived' himself entitled to call on the Government and the 'Legislature to afford some aid; and by so doing,hc was persuaded not only . that they .would not in reality trench on the na tional funds, but that in quieting tumult and dis affection, they would prevent a:material defalca tion in the revenue. The Hon. Gentleman' pro ceeded to advert to the various causes in which, in his opinion, the existing distresses had origi uated. Among them was the sudden check which had , been given to that policy, 'which had for so long a tie, determined, the labour of the country towards mattuft-alums—Another -cantle. of 'the 'evil was the' diminished circulation in the shape of wages; — Which the redectihn of taxation consequent on the return of peace, Oc casioned. . A third cause was the alarm pervadipg all the western parts of Scotland, inducing many persons to withdraw their capitals. On these and various other ground's '(Which the Honourable , Member detailed ',at considerable length), :he thought Parliament would be warranted in making some grant on-the subject ; the more especially as .it was not likely that the necessity for legisia tive interference would recur. lint even were his motion rejected; .he was persuaded that the discussion of it would not be Imo. tended , with advantage:, IT was highly de- . ! sirable that those who wished to emigrate, but`who could not raise the-ten pounds required for that., purpose, should be assisted. Others might have the burdens' which they endured Persons who were unable to exist, should be relieved from,: 'taxation altogether. la making this.observatioo,,he alluded more particu larlsyto the Irish population.. It was necessary that the burden of supporting 'the poor s'uonld not fall exclusively upon ihe land owner. 'Phis it was. which caused so much, disaffection in both countries. Let the House consider whether, from what they had heard, they did not sUpr,oae that the discontent of the country did 'not irriseinure from want than from disaffection—( Her !)-1t sstia;said that Radical Reform wits wbay'ue people wanted. This cry alarmed hundre , ls of thous Ands; but the cause of th e a h i • rn was tf7e , listresses, the w,n , s, of the people. The middling orders of so ciety were idonlified with _those ‘N. , !() were the agents of prodoctive labour. -Let the people sec that their wants were attended to, and they would be toutol quiet and tractable ; they woohl be found ame;iable to the Laws, and 5 npporrers ot the Constituti,n. The Him Member concluded by nnovinz, t! , ar there be laid before the House Ctyies of the different Memorials presented to 'he 'Trea sury relative to the Distresses laboured under by the Population ot the County ot Renfrew. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH;.QUER observ ed, that his Majesty's Ministers bad in all cases shewn a readiness to relieve the distresses of the country, where their inti-rterruce could be pro ductive of beneficial effects. He was aware, and so was the House, that much distress was elnsed by a transition front war to peace, by a chan!.:l of fashions, noel by several other causes. Tt Right Hot). Gentleman, in order to spew th t anxiety of Ministers to relieve the distiessei t f the country, read the following letter : (COPY.) a Fife House, 14th Dec. 18'li. "MY LORD—I have had the honour of receiving yoir Grace's letter. I informed you some days ago of the of proceeding which had been adopted in consequence of application from the City of Glasgow. " A Petition has been presented to the House of Commons from that place, and measures are in progress fur carrying into effect the prayer of that Petition. " As soon as the que,tiwt of security can be settled to the satisfaction of Pal liament, Government will have no dif ficulty in making an advance with a view to immediate re lief. " Your Grace does not seen► to be asvare that the Govern ment of this Country has no fund atits disposal for the relief of thy distresses of the Poor; that the People'of England pro vide for their Poor by Local Assessments, and that it never cou'd be expected in reason or ju,tice that they should be called upon gratuitously to provide for the Poor of the other parts of tb United Kingdom (where ❑u assessment exists) in nein' i)t) to their own. " If the dist,:ct of Lanark, or any other of the distressta districts of Scot::ind, will apply to Parliament for leave to as sess tl emselves in aid of their NU, Government will have no difficulty in recommc•n%3in„ - under the special circurn-, stances of the casr, that advances shall be made on the secu rity of such assessments ; or, if any Plan can he proposed to Pat liam , ,nt for giving vuiployment to the Poor, by means of local improvements, Government will have the same disposi tion to forward the object . by temporary advances where .ea sortable security can be giver► for ultimate repayment. .6 With respect to emigration, your Grace is already ac quainted with my sentiments. The object, important as it is in itself, can, from its iature, only admit of gradual accom plishment, and to attempt a too extensive and hasty execution of such a Plan coald only lead, in addition to unlimited ex pence, to tire ruin and destruction of those whom it is wished to relieve. " I request.tbat your Grace will communicate these sen timents to the Gentlemen with '.whom )ou correspond, and at the same time inform them, t hat if t hey will come forward with some specific proposal, on the principle of that of Glasgow. Government will have every Disposition to give the most liberal and indulgent consideratio.oo it, and to recommend it, if possible, to the adoption of Parliament. I have, &c. . •—• (Signed) " His Grace the Duke of Hamilton." " LIVERPOOL. This, the Right Hon. Gentleman conchided, was a proof that Ministers were alive to, and anxious to relieve, as much as in their power, the distresses of the country. Mr. Piumnosit supported the motion of his Hon. Friend. If the distresses of the country were to be permanent, so ‘voilld discontent also berpermanent ; if the people were to remain un e►niil►ryed, then sedition would spread itselt through thecomitry. The li►►n Member, after a variety ,of arguments, concluded by supporting the motion. Fimt-sY bore testimony to the exertions made by Mittistep to relieve the distresses of the country. Mr. J. P. GRANT, in a speech of considerable length, argued in favour of an i❑quiry into the distresses which Were so generally allowed to exist in Scotland. He hoped and trusted that the miserable situation of the poor who were starv ing in tilat.conntry, would meet the commisera tion, and receive the assistance of his Majesty's Ministers. 111 r. Hostus , ori defended his Majesty's Minis . . ters from any charge of inattention to the wants of the country. The Honourable IVltmber re ferred' the House to the letter or the First Lord of the Treasury to , the.Duke of Hamilton, as a proof that Government .were not only not care less of, but solicitously alive to, the interests and welfare of the people of the United Kingdom. Mr. GRANT explained. Mr. TIERNEY maintained that much of the dis tress which now prevailed in Scotland and other parts, was brought on by the impolicy of Go vernment, the issue of Bank paper, nut convertible into specie being one of the measures that pro duced it. But the great question was, whether, iii point of fact, the people of these districts were no),v in a state of starvation, and whether ally remedy eauld he applied ? Every one in the House admitted the fact of extreme distress, every one confessed that elley knew not what should be done, but that something ought to be done.— . But when Ministers came I °maul to do that some thing, they produced coercive Bills. Did they really expect that tranquillity could be restored in Scotland by dint of law and military force while thiugs remained in such a state ? lie was awatrt that Government was placed its a difficult shod lion, and therefore did not wish to bear hard upon them, but he would submit, whether by assess ment something more efficacious might be done. lie trusted that the House would proceed, either by Cormnittee or othet wise, to investigate the subject, and endeavour to make some provision against an evil of so serious and melancholy a nature. Mr. MARRYAT took a review of the causes that produced the present distrc•s, which he attribtned principally to the pressme of taxation, end the in jury produced by the peace on the manufacturing interests.• the ►hought that the whole question ought to bi taken up in a :.Lire enlarged vicw, !Lc, ion 4) .! tpie, unt il - -- r ss be pr , his it o Y al f a Cupy 0. )hers sr Fees, 0 111 other !al Court' —Ordered. with COP' essed ;etitlewoo iSetISSi OOO the Cittli e IC 11/ 0 ((I lotuanifYi he shoulii of hetet ware, 5° ury, tiI AC •hcwld he poor . ; invesil s es of tbo onsiderer 4, in bi t .hey mus g axious t° it it 01 t it %' ad cougi' in by bid tie c oil' had no/ , withog g umber a l •orSC iet thirty intern" cessary•" 4 bcotigl s ' perlo4lol Juder tits eri on tbo :aced 11 1 g a gene { on. only r 4° i of he 5c &U le effec t ' bzi:an ctcd a {tip en, frP e ' ni miselvesi ks of aCtS )19 for ev and thc ii hose vvi' s had seed Sir 0 : 4 receive t4 nt of I bg he wor t ' of cot s : otter 61°