The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

----- h ' l '"I' ‘v , I th'' vino. ti:cs T;. , c.‘! - --n- tion the Protestant j 6 ' l ' • • .., ,-c ~ n e 0 , t. .. . iIY ''''" ''` '''''' ~',1411; Parishes he had alluded to.—(11 , ar.) t'he Ir i.ii Church, notwithstanding all the support it had received,- bid it, f a il e d i n carrying out th , objects intended by tt• It n ever would carry out that object, and he did hot ther e f ore see the prepr i ety, o f k ee pi ne it u p. Refo r tea had be en ateeeipte e i n th a t Chattel', in order to bri ng , i t failed mere into parlor f termer; bet themh ad ell in Heine so. Thee r , el-rms had h, n pr •ptH ii and carried Out by the Right Hen. B armlet the Member f ‘ nr Te,mworth, end others; but they had all totally tik a. That Church was. therefore, conceived to be a burden on the people of Ireland, and while that idea of it prevailed among the people, there was no hope of its ever bein g rendered useful to. that country. He held that the religion of the majority of the people ought to be the r e li g i on of the. State, and as such supported by the State „ ; ,1 and in support of that doctrine he quoted the - PLatoll of Drs. B a ili e , Warburton, and Arnold. It was , however, said that as the Act of Union had made Ireland i an integr a l port i on of this emp i re, t h at i t was th e r e i- itgland, the majority of the three ki ng doms —Scotland, w i and, and Ireland—that ought to determine what was to •be the established religion. That, how. eve, was not a port proper ground to -proceed upon, for if they admitted the princip'e of gving the . sup-_ of the State to the religion of the majority could the people of England an - 1 Scotland, why co_te re t hey refuse to extend the same system to I the The present system of making the priests of t the I " i ° was the means of causing those priests L . () sympathise with, and to further the prejudices and op tions of the people, while by jade placing the priests on an e Pendent footing they would obviate that evil. No ;ie who•had paid any attention to the history of Ire. land, could fail to have seen the had effects of such a system. It was said that the Roman Catholic clergy trier' did not themselves respect the law; but had they not resp ecte d the law, Ireland would have been in a dif lrent state fr om w h at i t was at present. N o d ou b t t h e . "' u ntail Catholics of Ireland were, as a body, disaffected, and no wonder that they should be so, while they saw a Church established amongst them, eating up the re 'Courses of their country, while the great majority of the reeve Pople repudiat e d i ts d oc t r i nes . By a ppropriating the nue s of that Church for other purposes, and doing Church aw ay with that sectarian feeling which, while that Establishment existed in Ireland, would still P r evail, they would be conferring the greatest benefit on the people of Ireland. Sir G. GREY—I wish to relieve at once the anxiety 4 " apprehen s i ons ex p re ss e d by the Hon. and G a ll an t Member for Middlesex, that the Government would, on this occasion, move the previous question; for, however I may differ from him in thinking that there may be Occasions on which moving the previous question is the Proper way of meeting the point at issue, when I look at the circumstances under which this motion is made, e the p art i cu l ar e ff ec t s i t ma y pr o duce, and the object h Confesses he hes in`View, I do not think this question one Which can be . met in that manner, and, as I am not pre pared to entertain the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's plan, I consider I am justified in at once voting against the motion . .—(Hear ' hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member warn e d the Government that they were not to C ongratulate themselves on the present circumstances and condition of Irelaud. That the circumstances and condition of that country are not su ch as to offer a prospect of unmi t ig ate d sat i s f ec i on , I e " e "Ple regret to say I coecur with him in It e lerl iog- On the contrary, it is one which it is impos s,ele far any person to contemplate we huut deep pain the motion the Honourable and Gallant Member has brought forward the slightest hope that it would remedy Iretasieial eves, which are the real evils at present, o' jjavinud. or that it would facilitate her improvement R oool l i e r listened with Siren eon t i the speech I Could '4 dit: e of the Member tor Mayo (Mr. Moore), I must say and G e , i n•'ver but little in support ot the Honeurable tl' - ' l ' 4 Cientl • , 1 • t Coa ti oi r.Nt email s p en. The n - nish pulatical i.s ° H ourable Gen it is eal c ,i, ei u e). says he supperta the motion because to reviv e remove domestic grievance and dimi wth have Et u:T e°r lttlit. I, on the contrary, think it lest th at e n:eY te excite domestic discontent, _aud in Irel r d o " ti eal chsquietu te of wuich we have netlY l ornser all- at the present moment than at aele and , ,Period.-_ ( tim e of 'et:tient Hear, hear.) The Honour ,. Member occupied much of the pressed b y .uee / louse in quoting sentiments ex- Qover4 3 diffe rent Members o f th e H ouse an d of the to rde r to an this quest i on, and he did me the honour too t „ lee _ le e opini on I expressed in the debate which sileeere"e 18 44, addi ng that there had been an ominous at th u n o ur Irene th Part fr om t h at per i od to the present, and Of the T ie e tim e when my e Noble Friend the Frst Lord the I rish attire, brought forward his motion respecting Church to this, there had never been one word Laid tea eseu se e P e ting that question within the walls of the ke ep g ',act which he declared it to be his intention to aft er " li t ua memory of Government.—( Hear, hear.) Now, it, the all the research of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman lecti n .P a ges of Hansard, and after all his pains in col or hi - , 6 Passages suitable to his purpose, I must complain Geall e - e w , a „ u t of memory in return. The Honourable and l e 1,,.,ee Gentleman seems to have forgotten the debate occasion which led to a protracted discussion. On that ...e no a t t nn I repeated the opinions I had expressed before m eth) e zactly such as he, in order to recommend his ev er _ ll to the House, quoted them—but such as I have eeais_ retained and now adhere to on this question—(Hear, r)... enae. , . . a nd the weiy, opinions against the policy, the justice, °te e expediency of maintaining in Ireland, or in nay state, country, an Established Church endowed by the (~ ,hat Church being the Church of the minority. hers ries of " hear," from several Hon. Mem uerse. e tutheeuret h ef • i I h averepeatdly expressed these opinions 0 1 . e, but I now ask the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman if contained Ispi.telything. in this plan of his affecting the endow ."' the Established Church, or is there any remedy in it for that grievance? The Honourable and posed me to say —of a Gallant allow Member, in humble imitation—l hope he will greater man than himself, pro i thsts following out the plan of Lord Stanley, who, t the it h there were twenty Bishops in Ireland, reduced he ar t° ten, We should reduce those ten t o fi ve . —(H ear, dd ew But, does he propose th ere s h ou ld b e any en- Owtxientl' of th e R oman C atholic Church? Certa i nly Li- But the five Bishops would still be endowed by the State as the Bishops of our Established Church, and Would enj o y t h e Church revenues; and, so long as they did so, the question, which I have repeatedly expressed 'ter belief to be a question not of money but of feeling, Would remain uneruched.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman also forg.ta the subject was dis- Cussed at the close ot 1848. when I must do him the justice he forgot to render to bitnBelf, in reminding him he brought it before the House in a speech on the gene ral state of Ireland, and when I stated in reply to him always expr esse d on this subject. But maythe -vile wwshlile have on this subject, ask the H on . suit Gillant 4 11enleman when he accuses us o opinions f changing our why he (1 has change- his plan sincsinceth• n?—(Hear. hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman talks of a compro 'nisi', but there must be twe parties to a compromise; and I have yet to learn that he is in the confidence of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, or that th;s plan of his till remedy all their discontent. I must remind the 41 'in. and Gallant G.-wt.-man, when he says I have meinteimed an ominous salenee on this qu stion since 1844, that on the 29th July, 1848, I spoke as follows: `` I stn net prepared to deny, but to affirm, that the ex istence of an exclusive Protestant Church in Ireland (the Protestant Episcopalians b• iug a small minority ' . 11 13 , ot the populatiun) is an ano.naily unjustifi able in its origi n and indeten-ible now. I know co other coun try an Europe in which the same experiment has been itlntol7—in which the same attempt" has been curried out; ee n e sin qcite prepared to say that the wisdom and itsresults." Kuit y of the attempt in Ireland must be condemned by I will not troubie the Reuse with repeat , ay more of what I then expressed; but I think I have. asvr!id enough to exonerate myself from the charge of tug preserved the ominous silence of which the • h a u ek, and Gallant Gentleman accused me. Looking 'Whichowever, to the speech I delivered in 1844, of h the Hon. and G a ll ant M ember has given partial L t ou t e a ,ttoris, leaving o u t t h e p i th of my opinions —I no tio..o_t measure myself w i t h respect to the facility of f is u a c.,,.. , ? to r e d ress the grievance and remedy the adopt. eep4atned of in terms stronger than I would nos. H. i; ee l, (- ' b eers.) When th e Ri g ht H on . B aronet (Si r of ~...1 . 4 0 introduced hi s Bill to i ncrease the endowment nn r said Oth I qualified the opinions I expressed in 1844, towards that whilst I hailed the measure as the first step 1 did press what had been felt to be a stigma and the least insult degre e e ress it on the Government to advance • prospect of further than they could go with a • subject has success, —(Hear, hear.) Since that time the j est , „ ov occupied much of the attention of her Ma fiode; Ure eminent. They have anxiously desired to the exi tuedy for the evils of which they recognised M ember s feonee, but when the Hon. Gentleman the °F the Dee r i Ma y o (Me- Moore) says the prejudices eatisfaci p o of this country are an obstacle to the le orY settlement of the question, and that 41. 0rh Members come to this House prepared to vote against their consciences in deference to the prejudices of their constituents, I must remind him that there are Other ground* of difficulty besides those he has men twe e d . I .. . . tlement must remind him that one great bar to the set . of that coestion is the avowed, and repeated, and determined resolution. as far as we can judge) of the • Roman Catholic hierarch Roman Catholic clere y d , and of the great body of the schem e by whichtheirCnhurch should be endowed.— aity, not to consent to any (Cheers.) W when the Ronlean"Cantir in the same position as we were for admission to the c°iivil4 were petitioning Parliament were unjustly debasred, and from which they but I believe a mistaken, we have a strong, honest, feeling among the people of this Amid, against the endowment of the country tiff(' of Se Roman Cett.olic Church while we aw.t. Church protesting Of the hierarchy and clergy of that have the great body against such a measure.—(Hear) th hen I feel this to be the case I ask myself, is it wor • opinions we may entertain, to prop Ise while, whatever would give rise to great ani . e measure which be' s , • mosity, contention, and d • —excite much opposition, and which, insteate of b '3 ; ,waccepted as a boen, would be rejected by those for :hien .. more then I was last year, te go into a Committee ofanh . Whole House with the Hon. and Gallant Member t ti e ) ple the resources of the Eieeblished Church in _lreland, and with the view of taking that mutilatinn ultimate an instalment, looking, as I understood him, to the extinetiun and abelition ref that Church alto Othe r I shall the ....- nit ge into all the topics advance I by lion. and Gallant Gentleman, but this I may say, that with regard to trust property I am not prepared he dio t .. length which, accerding to him, Lori Brougham aid di theasYs gone by. He said the property of the Church ' Day of the Ares were • • • Mr. B. O' BORNE y ere on the same lo sting. 'a .' James Mackintosh said the me thing.—(A laugh.) Sir G. 11- li ber LY—W h et h er t h e Hon. and Gallant Mem quotes the Noble Lord correctly or not I am unable 0 say, but,; whether Lord Brougham or Sir James Mickintosh said it, I an: rot prepared to agree to the • -s pre c pie et tq't • : . ;1. i ate, preeered to d aw a len bet seen trust and private property, and there are Acts on the statute-book which sho +v that Parliament has exercised the right of 1 gis lating for trust property, and of making riseulations with regard to it which they would not make for private property. At I How MEMBER—What of Lord Lansdowne? Sir ‘4. GREY—As to Lord L .stine. :he country m a tte f r toe Church, "r the Church for the country?" I have .no he-itation in saying I believe the Church should be made for the country—that the only object of its establishment is to teach religion and to watch over the f or m a ti on o f the morals of the people—and that the Church which fails in this must fail in everything el6e.—(Hear, bear.) Nor would I rely on the sth article of the union as a bar to the motion, any more than it was a bar en a former oc casion when the Noble Lord asked the House to go into Committee on the Church Temporalities Act, though I regard it certainly as opposit , a bar to the absolute ex tinction of the Established Church in Ireland.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member said very truly, if we were allowed to begin de novo no one would think of establishing in Ire land such a Church as exists there at present; but I must recall the Hon. Member's attention to the difference be tvsem the original institution of a Church and a Cnurch which has existed for 200 years The Hon. Member (Mr. Moore) alluded to the past history of that Church, and said was written in characters of bl ; tied, speaking of the horrors wrtich had taken place since its first establishment, declared they surpassed those of the Italian inquisition. But. I could have hoped the same feeling which made him doubt whether he had done right in alluding to those occurrences in darker times and ages long gone by would have induced him to pause ere he did so, or to have at least moderated his language. I for one think the terms used by the Hon. Member were too strong, and I must remind him we are dealing with the Church that now exists, not with that which existed cen turies ago. I must regret that, having mentioned those topics, he did not feel it was his duty also to advert to the conduct of the Protestant clergy, and to bear his testimony to the untiring beneficence and indefatigable endeavours of that body during the recent period of famine--(" Hear, hear" from Mr. Moore)—to their de sires and labours to mitigate the distress of the people without religious or party distinction, and to the good produced by their zealous and noble exertions.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex stated that I was a member of the Irish Society, having subscribed to its funds. The Irish Society, however, is not con nected with the Irish Church. It is a voluntary society, supported by voluntary subscriptions; and the Honour able Gentleman, being an advocate of the voluntary system, has no right to object on his own principles to the existence of a society whose members have tor the object of their association how to benefit their fel low-creatures. I have a knowledge of its former history, though not of its recent acts ; but I have the strongest reason to believe that the object of the society was to send forth men in the missionary spirit who could speak the Irish language, and would, by speaking the Irish language, be enabled to eon vey aptritual and moral instruction to many of their fellow countrymen, to whom such instruction would otherwise be inaccessible. But if the Hon. Member means to charge me with cherishing any sympathy for, or giving any assistance to those who would take advan tage of the distress in Ireland to withhold relief from the people except on the condition of abjuring their faith, and who would thus be making temporal aid a means of s-ducing them from that faith, I can only say that I utterly repudiate any such imputation—(Hear, bear) —and in doing so, I shall add that I have no reason to believe that there is any member of that Irish Society. or any pers.in connected well it, who c •ulti b. capable of sueh conduct. The lion. Gentleman read an ex ract of a speech delivered by some person whom he described as an scent of that society.—(.llr. Osborne-=" A clergy man ") I aet not responsible for that speech, and with the sentiments I cannot profess the slightest sympathy. Th. Hi nourable Genticm in also teed a letter pur portin s to be frem the Lord Lieutenant of Irelatel, in which it was said that the loyalty of the Catholics was not to be trusted." I believe the Lord. Lieutenant said no such thing. The Hen. Gentleman did not mention the date of that letter. He is a person of so much research that it is impossible to follow him through all the documents he has quoted.—(A laugh.) But, from all my intercourse with the Lord- Lieutenant, there is no person, I am convinced, less likely to express such a sentiment ; and I believe his opinion to be, as it is the opinion of myself and others, that there is a general spirit of loyalty and attachment towards the Sovereign of this realm pervading the great body of the people of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—with cer tain exceptions, which have now, I hope, ceased to exist. Ido not think that I need enter into a defence of the Established Church of Ireland. That may well be left in the hands of the Honourable Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), who will take grounds, however, which I should not, gene rally speaking, be able to take. But I was anxious to re-state my opinions on the question which the Honourable Member for Middlesex has raised, and to remind the House of the great and paramount , diffi culty which exists with respect to the terms on which it can be settled ; and, till we can reasonably hope to be able to propose a measure to Parliament which shall carry out those views, I do not think it the duty of the Government to fellow a course which could only have the effect of leading to interminable discussions and acrimonious debates. For these reasons I shall vote against the motion. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the absence of my Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell). It is owing to domestic causes which left him no alternative. —(Hear, hear.) But for that circumstance, it was his full intention to have been present. Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed, that the Right Hon. Baronet, admitting that the Established Church of Ire land was a great injustice, argued as if that injustice would be done away with by establishing another Church. The state of the Irish Church had always been the great grievance on which the movement for the re peal of the union rested. On what ground did those who defended it take their stand? On the ground that re ligious truth ought to be maintained. But those who argued so were parties to establishing Hindooism in India, the Catholic religion in Malta and Canada, the Presbyterian Church in Scotland How, then, could they say that their object was to establish re ligious truth? Having sanctioned those various establishments in deference to a majority of the Irish ies l 3oh r upt e Cor i h,Btp n hu; d oerrictfh t : people in eac h i nstance, they yet established g h olrnw e Boau2a of sn C dd h . u f r oe c fn h d prd o e f ?loc fy c minority. htha gai l o n tis sm th ae e lffil ti c us ie e n a rl t es Wt l ha l se Protestants testan to ts Roman Catholics C th a e th c o ,, li t c h s o w ih a .s s the P ro as 3to l2f. In a work publiiihed by the Ecclesiastical History Society, reprintbeim.-' of the Cumin-in Pr a y er Book, or i g i nal l y introduced f the use of t h e I r i an Church. gro ss ignorance was imputed that Chu rc h. and the editorremarkedttho t clergy mennu o f provision h i d L een made fur the liioroZrutable Com mon Prayer cireulwed in the I r i s h tongue, or fir : quiring that clergymen should speak the vernacular; it having bren en toted that the Book of Common Prayer should be read only in English or Latin. On the one hand, there was a people speaking the Irish language; on the other, a Church established which pesitiv.ly enacted that no Irishman shoeld be el« ct, d to a cure till p oclamatiou had been made three times to see whether an Englishman could bi- got. It was making men prac tical he peeritee to compel them to bullpen a Church whose dogmas they.believed untrue, and whose preach ing tney thought unsound. Was it on political ground: that t 4.1 Cuurch established in Ireland could be de fended? Certainly that Church had not been the means of procuring tranquillity. It had been said that the Protestants went to Ireland with a sword iu one hand and a Bible in the other. They drew the sword, but forgot to open the Bible. They had distinguished them selves more by confiscations than by concessions. And what had constantly been the cause of agrarian disturb ances? It was to the injustice of the tithe system that Rock, and Starlight, and.•the Peep-o'-Day Boys owed their origin:— .. • " - As long a; Popish spade and scythe Shall dig and cut the Sassenach tithe, And Popish purses pay the tolls On Heaven's road for Sassenach souls; As long as millions shall kneel down To ,ask of thoaaands for their own; So long the happy reign shall be Of Captain li)ck and his family !" The ChurCh of Ireland had further been made odious as a political engine; and the great body of the Irish people had made up their minds that, by some means or other, so great a practical abuse as that Church should be abated. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, while he could not approve of the views stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, must make his acknowledgments for the intimation of the Right Hon. Gentleman's intention to meet the motion by a decided negative.—(Hear, hear.) No policy could be attended by more fatal consequences than any weakness on the part of the Government with reference to the subject of the Church at that time. He regretted that the question had been raised by the Hon. Member for Middlesex— not that he shrank from the argument, but that since 1834—since discussions on the same theme had, as it were, by common consent been abandoned, the acrimony of political feeling and religious controversy had been mitigated, and the revival of either was to be deprecated. The Hon. Member objected to the inertness - of the Irish Church at a former period,' and now that it was active he said that it was promoting hypocrisy.. It would be his (Mr. Hamilton's) duty to. point out what had been done towards correcting the abuses in the Irish Church to which the Hon. Member had particularly adverted, anti he would pledge his character upon the accuracy o f any statements he• might • make. One of the primary grounds of complaint against the Church in Ireland was the existence of pluralities. Many Hon. Members ima gined, perhaps, that pluralities existed to a great extent in thelrishCnurch, and that there were no means of cor recting the abuse. Li 1834 the number of pluralities in the Irish Charon was 81; in 1843, the date of the last return, the .somber had been reduced to 34.—( fear, hear.) The .process of reduction was still in progress. No fresh pluralities could be created except through a faculty granted by the Primate t) Ireland, and no such faculty had been granted since 1828. In point of fact, the system of pluralities was fast disappearing under the aaiwnistration of that distinguished Prelate. Sine cures iurnisned another ground of c,implaint against the Irish Church; but under the Church Temporalities Act and subsequ.nt Acts ample prevision was made for the correction of that abuse. Another defect in the establish ment upon which its opponents laid great stress was the existence of .union'. It, was true that the existence of union s was an abuse which once.prevailed to a great ex- L--lit in Ireland. but it had been abated b the operati.in of the Church Temp walities Act, e hich invested the Lord - Lieutenant in Council with p•iwer to diasolve unions. N o fewer than 53 unions had been dissolved since -1833_ Some. few unions yet remained, because they were indispensable under the existing circumstances n-• ude ;hat ate► the licit TEE SUN, LONDON. WEDNESDAY' of the country. Some of the parishes were ;itch ex- i tri mely Erni ed cxtent—cer ins:aece, one in Cork was entirely occupied by a disteLery, and another consisted of only 40 square yards—that if they were not united there would be no provision whatever for.the clergyman. Another ground of convlaint was the non-rosideuce of the clergy; tut this defect was fast disappearing. In 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Armagh was 82, of whom 15 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 102, whilst the number of those non-resi lent was reduced to five, two of whom were non-resident on acceunt of illness. In 1819 the number of benefice clergymen in the diocese of Meath was 94, of whom 20 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 107, atil the number non resident was reduced to seven. In 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Ossory and Ferns was 147, of whom 45 were non-resident; in 1349 the number of beueficed clergymen had increased to 244, and the nonresidents were reduced to nine. In 1819 there were 109 beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Cashel and Waterford, of whom 52 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of clergymen had increased to 121, whilst that of non-resident was reduced to nine.-- (Hear.) Had he been able to procure returns from the other dioceses in Ireland, they would have exhibited similar results.—(Hear, hear.) The alleged excessive wealth of the Church in Ireland had long furnished a toeic for declamation against the establishment. In 1833 Lord Althorp was obliged to acknowledge that on no subject had such exaggerated statements been put forth as with respect to the revenues of the Irish Church, and he (Mr. Hamilton) must he allowed to say that a little of the old spirit of exaggeration was apparent in the remarks of the Hon. Member for Middlesex upon this tepic. The Hon. Member stated that the income of the Irish clergy amounted to 680,8361, and that of the Church altogether to 852.000/. The property of the Church was divided amongst the parochial clergy, dig nitaries, and bishops. It appeared from the evidence of Mr. Quin, one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that the gross income of the Irish clergy was 453.0941., and their net income 369,3601., without deducting the poor rates. The amount of rates struck during the year ending the 31st of December, 1848, througout Ireland, was 2a. 9id. in the pound; and it was truly stated in that House, a few evenings since, that the moment a rate was struck in Ireland landlords deducted the amount, as they were empowered to do by the Church Temporalities Act, from the clergyman's rent charge. It was therefore necessary to deduct from the net income of the clergy, namely, 369,3601., the amount taken from it by the landlords for poor-rate, which was 63.2441, and would reduce the net income of the clergy to 306,116/.—(Hear.) Bat there was still another de duction to be made from the income of the clergy, namely, the sum which they paid to their curates, which thee Ecclesiastical Commissioners returned at 56,7081. That deduction being made, the net income of the clergy of the Irish Churoh stood at 249 4081., which divided amongst them, independently of curates, would give an average of 1721. 16s. 2d. for each clergyman.—(Hear, hear.) According to the last census, and making no allowance for the subsequent increase of population, there was a congregation of 590 members of the Church of England for each clergyman. Now, the Hon. Mem ber for Middlesex wou d not think of offering a clergy man with such a congregation less than 1721: a year, and, therefore, it was evident that if he succeeded in establishing his congregational principle he would be unable to effect any saving. —(Elear ) The net income e e tw e e!) , of the largest benefices in Ireland was 14,1291., being an average of 7081. for each, which could not be deemed very extravagant.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The large,t benefice in Ireland was that of Temple more, attacked to the deanery of . Derry. It contained 8 churches. 15 schools, in which LOCO children were edu cete 1, and the incumbent kept nine curates. The present ieeeme of this, the largest benefiee in Ireland, was only 1,552/—(Elear.) He would admit that the smallness of particular congregations was an evil incident to the pa e-ochi ii system. and it was one from which Enela'd was not exempt. The Commissioners of Public Instruction reported that there were in 1834 forty-four benefices in Irel nal in which there were no congregations belonging 'to the Established Church. Teenty of these livings had lapsed to the general fund, and twenty-one still existed, of which several would shortly lapse. But if' the Rouse were to abolish at once these twenty-one bene• flees in which there was ne congregation belonging to 'the Established Church, the net income derivable there from would be 1,2351. If they took the revenues of the 'lOO parishes in which there were the smallest congre gations they would derive a yearly sum of 9.049/. The gross income of the dignitaries of the Established Church in Ireland—deans, archdeacons, prebendaries, &c., excite , slusive of bishops arid archbishops —was 23,000/, or 21,000/. net. The next class was the bishops, a reasonable income for whom had been held to be about 4.000/. The gross income of the English bishops was 6,683/., and their net income 5,931/. The gross total income of the Irish Bishops was 40,5331., giving an average income to each ,Bishop of 4,055/. The Archbishops received 15,808/., and the total income of Irish Archbishops and Bishops 'was 56,3811. There were 814 glebe-houses to 1,450 be eiefices, and there were great numbers of applications of ' pressing necessity for the building of new and the repair of old churches, which it was impossible to meet, from the want of funds. He trusted that he had stated suffi• cient to correct the errors and gross exaggerations pre valent respecting the wealth of the Irish Church.— (Rear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Mayo (Nir. Moore) declared that the Irish Church had not fulfilled the object for which it had been established, but he should have thought that the sacrifices made by the clergy of the Established Church during the late dis 'tress sufficiently disproved the assertion that no social 'advantages had resulted from the existence of that 'Church. He had always held that the Irish Church ought to be sustained and upheld as a missionary land aggressive Church.—(Hear, bear.) Thei Noble Lord the Member for Arundel said that he (would not give a farthing for a Church that 'was not a missionary church and aggressive in its cha racter. Truth could only be promoted by the collision of opinions, and he considered it to be the duty equally :of Protestants and Roman Catholics to propogate their views, provided that in doing so they did not violate .Christian charity. The Noble Lord at the head of the 'Government said on the 16th of July, 1846, in reference to this subject, that the destruction of the Protestant 'Church in Ireland would be a fatal measure in a political .point of view, as it would alienate the feelings of many of 'the most loyal inhabitants of Ireland; and in a religious , point of view, because it would be the commencement of a religious war, in which the most violent attack 'would be made on the Roman Catholic Church ; and that he believed the Roman Catholics themselves would 'he the first to complain of the destruction of the Protes tant Church. He (Mr. H emilton) believed that the Noble :Lord had not in the slight-st degree exaggerated the feelings of the great mass of the Roman Cath4dies in that l h i w e ico ve hu d i: t ,i h ns a , t : t o he great body that resP tht He ; b. ; I,:vngelldecalculated H to o promote us e on a peace and civilisation . — (Hear,) question an which he had so fr qu-ntl b f tits opinio ns . Th e Elon. Condone ore expressed down had called th e attent i on of the H w oi bad sat 'se to the plu r dtties and other features of the Established Church is I-elend, not one of which ev is mentionee in the m ition of the Hon. M-mher, tor Middlesex. He (Mr. Hume) had rise!) to complain that the Right Hon. Baronet had not grappled in any fair way with the multi et of his Hon. Friend. 'Cho injury, morally and socially, which the Church in Ireland inflicted on the people was de 'plorahle, an I it would he sound policy to put a stop to the evil—an evil which inflicted degradation on every Catholic in the country —(Rear.) He had only to say that he considered the motion of his Ron. Friend in a financial point of view, as of great importance, and, as effecting the morals of the people, as of the greatest weight. The Right Hon. Baronet, in opposing the motion, went off on the plea that the Church had been rooted 300 years; but it had, be (Mr. Hume) was sorry to say, grown very badly—(Leughter)—and while it increased but little, if at all, the Catholic Church in creased twelvefold. The price of supporting the Church of Ireland, as it was now supported, cost the people of England 50,000 armed men. He felt that every Irishman must rise daily and feel himself in relation to the state and operation of the Church, a degraded mortal ; and what was more, he had the additional mortification of hearing the minority on every Sunday, railing against the majority who paid for the support of their Church, keeping up a state of antagonistic feeling in the country. Was it not too bad to find the minority thus abusive of the majority who were compelled to support them? The time, however, he would tell the House, was come, when they must deal with the people of Ireland on a very different footing in respect to that Church.—(Hear, hear.) Let them look to Scotland. If the Government had suc ceeded in planting in that country, as was done in Ire land, a Church which was alien to the feelings of its people, would Scotland be the country which it was now? No; It would be in the same state that Ireland was now.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted that while in England the people enjoyed their own religion, and while in Scotland the people enjoyed their own religion, Ireland was placed in the anomalous situation of seeing the majority of her people taxed, in order that the mi nority might exist. Was it any wonder, then. that dis• content existed in that country ?—(Hear, hear.) Let them assign any other cause. He admitted that bad laws prevailed in the country. forming a source of discontent; but the great cause of discontent was the state of the Established Church in that country—a cause which his Hon. Friend male as clear as anything could be. The Church was the foundation on which " Repeal " and every other association was based, He could never forget the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) when he was leaving office, and surrendering 'sewer into the hands of the present Ministers, in relation to the Irish Church. The Right Run, Baronet said on that occasion that he should sup port the Ministers in their efforts to remove those causes of discontent arising from one class of religion being place-I in the ascendant over another. The Right Hon. Baronet knew that the men who now occupied the Minis terial benches had been railing for forty years against the abuse, and he thought that they would be the party to remove that grievance; bat he (Mr. Hume) regretted that the Right Honourable Baronet and the public were disappointed in that opinion. The clinging of the Church party to the money—he meant the revenues of the Church —convinced him that they were doubtful of their own Church, and that they felt that without those means the Cnurch of England would fall. It was impos sible that any pe pie (unless they were slaves) could submit to such a state of injustice and degradation. The revenues of the Church of E tgl oid were public money— they were public property taken by Parliament from one sect, and given by P trliatnent to another sect. -;-(Cries of " Hear hear.") He only rose to express , his reeret th a t the Gov e rnment were not prepared to favour the ea akin of his Hon. Friend for tlae aPpoint merit of' a Committee to take into consideration the state of the Irish Church, with a view to a correction of its abuses.—:(llear, hear.) Mr. P. WOOD was anxious on this occasion to ex- EVENING, JULY 11, 1849. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. PACKE postponre his motion on the delay in completing the new ti,rase of Comm-ins till next session. HARBOURS OF REFUGE. On the motion of Mr. BRIGHT (ia the abscnce of Mr. Hume), the followinn re!urns were ordered:— Return of all sums voted for harbours of refuge sine, the year 1844 and a statement of the money expended upoil Dover, H irwich, and Portland respectively: similar return for Holyhead, distinguishing between the suala expended upon► the old and new harbours: statement, showing under which department of Govern ment the several harb)ur works are bring carried out, and the sort of superintendence or control that is exercised over them; copies of the authenticated plan (if any) of the works to be executed at each of these places, showing the extent to which it is proposed they should be carried, and the estimated expense of each ; and of the report of surveys, if any, or copy of plans, if any, showing the progress made from time to time in the works ; and showing also their present state ; the amount already expended on each, and the amount to be expended to complete the works as originally planned. Copies of the authority under which the harbour department of the Admiralty was formed, and of the letter of instructions, if any, which prescribed its duties ; and of report of any Committee of Inquiry as to the efficiency of that department, or of any report, if any, recommending its reduction, together with any documents or other evidence on which such report may have been founded. press the grounds on which he meant to give his vote on this qocAtion, and to make some observations on the :speech of the Hoc. :Member for the University of Duh.in (\lr. Hamilion). While he considered the Church of England—to which ho was proud to belong—was the purest, and he spoke it without intention to give offence w any other religion, he could not but express his regret at the state of that Churzh in Ireland, and the manner in which it was supportA. It was plain, he must say, that Church formed bat a very small portion of the people of the country; and the House should recollect that they were dealing with it a.: a national question. The ground on which he could give his vote for the motion now be fore the House, was not that he exp-cted that at that late period of the session it would be successful, but to mark his sense of the question; at the same time, in voting for the motion to go into Committee, he did not pledge him to vote for all those points in reference to the state of the Established Church in Ireland which the Honourable Member had referred to in introduc ing the question. Now, with reference to the Church, he was bound to say that it had never been the national Church of Ireland. They had seen the conquest of Wales, and why did not those grievances which afflicted Ireland prevail there? They had found that with very few exceptions, the inhabitants were not handed over to the Normans as the Irish were; and the consequence was, that although they were exposed to great difiiaulties in Wales, they had peace and tran quillity in that country, notwithstanding it was, as he re marked, a conquered country. The difference between the countries was, that the people of Wales were left their estates, while the Irish people were doomed to have their estates divided among the Normans; and the Governments of this country really thought no more of the Irish, than they did of the natives when establishing the colonies in America. The question seemed to him to be a great grievance requiring decided redress. The Point most desired in all churches was that she should be the guardian and directress of the poor; but in Ire land the Church exercised no such kindly functions for the benefit of the " mere Irish." Now while he gave support to the motion, he differed from some of the details which the Honourable and Gallant Member for Middlesex announced his intention of moving if they went into Committee.—(Hear, hear.) lie did not think it necessary that a bishop should have 4,000/. a year. Indeed, one of the best Bishops of the Episcopal Church he ever knew had only 701. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Fifteen hundred a year ought to be the maximum allowance to each bishop. They were bound to take steps to remedy the abuses which existed in this respect—abuses which principally arose from the fact of the Church in Ireland not being a national church. Mr. NAPIER would be quite willing to rest the case of the Church on the able and eloqiient statement of his Hon. and valued Colleague, but there were some mistakes in the arguments of the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman opposite, which he desired to correct. He was quite willing to compare the d.)ctrines of the Protestant Church with those of the earliest churches, and to try its doctrines by the word of God. If they were to have their own conscientious views of what a Church of eighteen hundred years ought to possess, he believed the funds at the disposal of the Establishment were not more than sufficient for its creditable support. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that whatever was done with the funds of the Established Church, a reason able and sufficient income ought to be reserved for the working clergy.—(Hear.) There was, moreover, a question of expediency involved in this matter, and he contended, that so respectable a body as the Protestant Church, including in the Church both clergy and laity, were entitled to a respectable provision. It was a diffi cult thing to get at the exact revenues of a church, but he believed, after the utmost investigation, that the sum actually received by the clergy and the Commissioners for the Reduction of Ves , ry Cess and other matters, amounted to between 650,000/. and 660.000/. a year. The number of the clergy was certainly too great, and when they were paying men out of a trust fund, it was evidently absurd to pay men out of a trust who had no deti , .; to perform. There were not above 200 more Rnean Catholic clergy than Protestant, although the disparity in the numbers was so great ; and if it should be sail that there were friars in orders outside the Ro man Catholic Church, then he answered by pointing to the Wesleyan preachers outside the Protest.nt Church, who were more numerous than the friars. With regard to any surplus fund that there might be, he meant to say that he should not wish any portion of such a sum to he given to the Roman Catholics, as it would give an appearance of triumph to one party over another. It was in no spirit of hostility that he should vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend. Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret at the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for until that moment he had thought that the Hon. Gentleman was for relieving the people of Ireland of the members of the Established Church, instead of being an advocate for tinkering the temporalities of the Establishment. He had often heard that St. Patrick was an Irishman— that he came of decent people—Ahat in point of fact he was a gentleman ; but until that evening he certainly was not aware of his having been a Protestant.—(Laugh ter.) He should not say a word, God forbid, of his Protestant friends and neighbours, but an illustrious countryman of his, namely, Dean Swift, had spoken of the Bishops appointed in his time in the following terms: —" No blame rests with the Court for their aspeint ments, and excellent and moral men were selected for all vacancies, when they occurred, but it unfortunately hap petted, that as the worthy divines crossed Hounslow heath, they were robbed and murdered on the highway, and those who did so, seized on their robes, and patents of appointment, came over to Ireland, and were con secrated in their stead."—(Roars of laughter.) These were the lineal descendants of St. Patrick. Let them now see how the rest got on down to their own time. The Hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Hamilton) talked of averages, and asserted that the Church was not so rich as it was thought, for the clergy, on an average, had only 172/. 19s. nit'. per annum. But some had only 50/. And as to averages, when the corn-law was about to be repealed, it was asserted that on an average every man, woman, and child in England consumed a certain quantity of beef and mutton daily, whereas in point of tact it was well known that thousands of these same people never ate a morsel of one or the other from year's end to year's end.—(Laughter.) It was precisely the same with the parsons. Well, there was another view of the case, showing how these aver ages told. The following summary was taken from a paper called the Daily Reporter, giving an account of the sums of money paid to the Established Church of Ireland:—Archbishops, 151,127/. 12s. 4d.; Deans, 22,6241. ss. 6d. ; ministers' money, 10,000/.; making altogether, with glebe-lands, an aggregate sum of 807 533/. 12s. 4d., to which should be added 75 0001. a year paid to Trinity College.—(Hear.) Then, again, those lineal descendants of St. Patrick— ( A laugh)—paid the common debt of nature, and then came the probate duty paid by their heirs, which he found in another public document, up to July, 1832, as fallows:— Fowler, Aaehbishop of Dublin, 150,0001.; Beresford, Bishop of Timm, `250,0001.; Agar, Bishop of Cashel, 400,000/.; Stoprord, Bishop of Cork, 250,0001.; Bernard, Bishop of Limerick, 250,000/. ; Hawkins, Bish ,p of Raphoo. 250 0001.; and several others, making in all a sum of 1,575,000/. as probate duty. He did not .mean to insinu ate t h at those Bi shops were subst i tuted for the persons robbed on Hounslow-heath, but they certainly fra , hered their nests very well. The Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home De;arcmont made a speech of which he did not approve. Now, as regarded the appropriation of reve nues, he repudiated the idea of appropriating to Catholic purposes any portion of it. His religion wa , not to be sustained by the mammon of iniquity. The Hon. Gen tleman, after reading an extract of a speech of Earl Farteseue, pointing out the gri-vances of the Established Church in Ireland, concluded by thanking the Honour able Member for Middlesex for the able manner in which he brought the question forward. Major BERESFORD denied that the sum attributed to the Archbishop of Tuarn, on which probate duty was paid, amounted to 250.0001. When the statement was first made, he applied to his relatives, and received the most distinct refutation, for it only amounted to 40,0004 and not 250,000/., as had been asserted. 111 r. REYNOLDS explained. The document to which he referred was a public one, and at to the amount of probate duty, it was to be had at the Stamp-office. Mr. J. O'CONNELL denied that the people of Ireland were indifferent to the mongter grievance of the E.tab lished Church, and protested against any endowment being made to the Catholic Church. Mr. OSBORNE—I do not think that the friends of religious equality in Ireland have reason to regret the tone, or upshot, of the debate.—(Hear, hear.) But the present is a melancholy occasion, and the Whig prin ciple has expired.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) We have heard of the birth, parentage, and education of the appropriation clause, and now our melancholy duty is to attend its obsequies; the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department sings the dirge as chief mourner, while all the men who voted for the clause since 1835 are forced to walk in the funeral procession.—(Hear hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says that I am not consistent, because I wished to abolish the Church altogether in 1848. But when he reminds me of my inconsistency, he should not forget that he himself supported the ballot in Devonport and op posed it in Northumberland.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the asst man to taunt another with inconsistency; he is evidently a man of in firm mind.—(A laugh.) I did not expect to be taunted for offering a compromise, but the Right Hon. Gentle man refuses all compromise. He says "If I could see a good practical plan." What is his plan? He would endow the Roman Catholic Church; would he? He knows that he dare not do it. Ho knows that that is a step which the Whigs, false as they are, will not attempt so long as they have the government of the country in their hands.—(Hear.) I regret that the Right Hon. Member for Dungarvan and one or two other members of the G overnment h ave not g i ven us t h e b ene fi t o f t h e i r opinion. Assuredly they will be obliged to eat much dirt to - night.—(Cheers and laughter.) But whatever flattering unction they may lay to their souls, they can not go on n i g h t a f ter night see i ng one principle expire after another. Th ey may l ea n one night on a crutch and en another lean on a cushion from Montrose— (Great laughter) —but they are only staggering on, and must at last expire from sheer political atrophy. This queition, which had already destroyed so many Govern ments, will eventually prove the grave of her Majesty's present Ministry.—(Bear, hear.) At the conclusion of the lion. Member's reply, there was a ;,retty general rush from the Ministerial benches. As the Members passed out they were greeted with loud ironical cheering from the Protectionist side of the House. The House then divided, when there appeared— F,r the motion ••• ••• ... 103 Against it ... ••• ••• 170 51.1j,Tity ••• ••• -67 The announcement of the numbers was greeted with loud cheers by the minority. NEW BILLS. Leave was given to bring in the following Bills: On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a Bill to repeal the allowances in the purchase of stamps, and fur the re• ceiving and accounting for the duties on gild and silver plate, and to grant other allowances in lieu thereof. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, a Bill further to amend an Act of the 10th year of her present Majesty, for rendering valid certain proceedings for the Relief of Distress in Ireland, by employment of the labouring poor, and to indemnify those who have acted in such proceedings. Also, Bill to amend an Act of the 10th year of her Majesty, inti tuled, " An Act to facilitate the Improvement of Landed Property in Ireland." On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, a Bill to continue an Act of the sth and 6th years of her present Majesty for amending the law relative to private lunatic asylums in Ireland. MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL. Mr. WYLD moved the second reading of this Bill. Year after year the loss of life in collieries was increas ing, and this year it had increased 35 per cent. over the previous year, and his object in proposing this Bill was to provide a remedy for this evil by a proper and efficient system of inspection. Sir G. GREY suggested that legislation should be postponed until the Committee now sitting of the House of Lords on the subject, and the Commission appointed by the Government, should have reported. He did not desire to go into the meritslof the Bill, but he was not prepared to assent to the appointment of a chief inspec tor in London, and a number of inspectors in the coun try, to be paid for by a rate of 3d. in the pound. He believed the understanding on a former day was, that the Bill should be postponed until the inquiries referred to had concluded. If the Hon. Gentleman persisted in pressing the second reading, he should feel it his duty to move that it be read a second time that day three months. Mr. AGLIONBY supported the Bill. Mr. BERNAL opposed it. He had a sincere desire to effect the object in view, but he had full confidence that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would pay due attention to the subject. Mr. DUNCAN requested Mr. Wyld to withdraw the Bill. Strangers withdrew, but the Bill was negatived with out a division. L! reply to Mr. HENLEY, Mr. LABOUCHERE said he could not at present fix the day for the second reading of the Railway Audit Bill, but that he would do so on Thursday. The House went into Committee on the POOR RELIEF (CITIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL, The several clauses of which were agreed to. BOROUGHS RELIEF BiLL. This Bill passed through Committee. TRUSTEES RELIEF BILL. This Bill alO passed through Committee. SHERIFFS (WESTMORELAND) BILL. This 13111 was read a second time and passed through Committee. The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. -- - From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) MONDAY, JULY 9. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE. The following Resolution was reported from the above Committee : That in the case of the North Staffordshire Railway (New castle and Silverdale Branch Amendment Act) petition, the standing orders ought not to be dispensed with. —Report to lie on the table. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of ComrnOea.i TUESDAY, JULY 10. CHURCH OF IRELAND. Motion made, and Question put, " That this House ►ill resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to con sider the present state of the Temporalities of the Church of Ireland." The House divided:— MINORITY—AYES, 103. Adair, It. A. Harris, Richard Pearson, Charles Aglionby, H. A. Headlam, T. E. Pechell, Captain Alcock, Thomas Henry, Alexander Peto, Samuel Armstrong, It. B. Heywood, James Pilkington, James Bass, M. T. Ileyworth, L. Pinney, W. Berkeley, Henry F. Hindley Charles Power, Dr. Berkeley, C. L. G. Hodges, T. L.l Rawdon, Colonel Bernal, Ralph Hodges, T. Twisden Reynolds, John Birch, Sir Thomas Holiond, Robert Ricardo, Osman Blake, Martin J. Howard, C. W. Robartes, T. J. Bouvarie, E. P. Hume, Joseph Salwey, Colonel Bright, John Jackson, William Scully, Francis Brotherton, J. Kershaw, James Shaft, R. D. Banbury, E. 11. King, P. J. Smith, R. V. Burke, sir Thoma 3 Langston, J. 11. Smith, J. Benjamin Callagliax, D. Locke, Joseph Spearman, H. J. Clay, James Lushington, C. Strickland, Sir G. Cobden, R. M'Cullagh, W. T. Stuart, Lord Dudley Colebrooka, Sir T. Mahon, O'Gorman Tancred, IL W. Davie, Sir Henry Mangles, R. D. Ihicknesse, R. A. D'Eyncourt, C. T. Martin, Samuel Thompson, Colone Duncan, Viscount Melgund, Viscount Thompson, George Duncan, George Milner, W. M. Thornely, T. Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, A. T. Tollemache, F. J. Evans, John Molesworth, Sir W. Trelawny, J. S. Ewart, William Monsen, William Wall, C. B. Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Walmsley, Sir J. Fergus, John Mostyn, E. Wawn, J. T. Fordyce, A. D. Mowatt, Francis Williams, John Fortescue, Chichester Nugent, Sir Percy Willyams, H. Fox, W. J. O'Brien, J. Wood, W. P. Gibson, T. M. O'Connell, John Greene, John O'Connell, M. J. TELLERS. Grenfell, C. Pascoe O'Connor, Feargus Osborne, Ralph Grenfell, Charles W. O'Flaherty, Anthony Roche, E. B. Grosvenor, Lord R. Ogle, S. C. MAJORITY—NOES, 170. Acland, Sir T. D. Gordon, Admiral Napier, Joseph Ashley, Lord Gore, W. R. 0. Neeld, John Bagshaw, John Goulburn, Henry Newdegate, N. rsaines, M. T. Graham, Sir James Newry, Viscount Bankes, G. Granby, Marquis of Siclicil, John Baring, H. B. Greene Thomas O'Brien, Sir Lucius Baring, Sir F. Grey, Sir G. Puke, C. W. Bateson, Thomas Grey, R. W. Paget, Lord Clarence Beckett, W. Grogan, Edward Pakington, Sir J. Bentinck, Lord H. Halsey, T. P. Palmer, Robert Berestord. William Hamilton, G. A. Parker. John Bolder°, H. G. Hamilton, J. H. Patten, W. Bowles, Admiral Hamilton, Lord C. Peel, Sir Robert isramston, T. W. Harris, Captain Pennant, Colonel lircmridge, Richard Hawes, Benjamin Plowden, IV. 11. Brims, U. Hay, .Lord John Plumptre, J. P. Broadley, H. Ilayes,Sir E. Price, Sir Atobert Bromley, Robert Ilayter, W. G. Reid, Colonel Brooke, Sir A. B. Ileneage, G. IL W. Reoton, G. W. J. Burrell, Sir C. Herbert, 11. A. Rich, Henry Cardwell, E. Berries, John C. Romilly, Sir John Cavendish, W. G. Hervey, Lord A. Rushout, Captain Chichester, Lord J. Ilildyard, R. C. Russell, E. Childers, J. W. Hiltlyard, T. B. Rutherford, A. Christopher, R. Hill, Lord E. Scrope, G. P. Christy, Samuel Hobhouse, Sir John Seymour, Sir H. Cobbold, J. C. Hodgson, W. N. Sheridan, It. B. Cocks, T. S. Hood, Sir A. Simeon, John Colvile, C. R. Hope, A. Smyth, J. G. Compton, 11. C. Hotham, Lord Somerville. Sir W. Corry, H. Howard, Sir R. Sotheron, T. U.S.' Co bitt, William Jermyn, Earl Spooner, Richard Darner, Colonel Jervis, Sir John Staffsrd, Augustus Deedes, W. Johnstone, Sir J. Stuart, IL Denison, J. E. Jones, Captain Stuart, J. Disraeli, 13. Ker, Richard Taylor, T. E. Duckworth, Sir J. Knox, Colonel Theslger, Sir F. Dundas, Admiral Labouchere, Henry Townshend. Captain Dundas, Sir David Lacy, H. C. Turner, G. J. Dunne, F. P. Lascelles, W. S. Tyrell, Sir J. Du Pre, C. G. Legh, G. C. Vesey, T. East, Sir J. B. Lewis, George C: Villiers, Viscount Ebrington, Viscount Lewisham, Vis. Vivian, J. E. Egerton, Sir P. Lindsay, Colonel Walpole, S. II Egerton, W. T. Littleton, E. R. Walter, John Elliot, John E. Lockhart, W.: Watkins, Colonel Estcourt, J. B. B. Lopes, Sir Ralph Wellesley, Lord C. Farnham, E. B. Lygon, Gen. Williamson, Sir U. Ferguson, Sir R. Martin, C. W. Wilson, James Fitzpatrick, J. W. Maule, Fox Wilson, Matthew Floyer, John Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wodehouse, E. Forbes, Wm. Miles, P. W. S. Wood, Sir Charles Fox, S. L. Miles, William Wyld, James Freestun, Colonel Morgan, 0. • Young, Sir John Frewen, C. H. Morris, David Galway, Viscount Muthugs, J. R. TELLERS. Gladstone, W. E. Mundy, William Tafnell, Henry Gooch .E. S. Naas, Lord Cowper, IV. F GENERAL EDUCATION AND EX. TENSION OF THE FRANCHISE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Sts,—ln order to give the greatest impetus possible to the spread of voluntary education among the poorer classes, let the test of qualification for exer cising the elective franchise be an educational one and not a property one; or, in other words, "give the vote to a man because he is a man, not because he has purchased some earth or some bricks and mortar." It will be admitted by all that an educated man is better qualified to exercise the elective franchise than an uneducated man, but the difficulty is, if education is to be the test, where to draw the line of demarca tion between the one and the other. To remove this difficulty, let every man (not being a pauper nor con victed of crime) who can solve correctly rule of three questions in arithmetic have a vote. Thus the line would be clearly defined, the principle of universal suffrage in its only healthy aspect would be adopted, and the vote given to a man because he is a man. In going through this test he would show his ca pability to read, write, and use his reasoniDl facul ties, all of which must certainly be deeme d d a n g el which, qullifications for an independent voter, a being within the reach of the p oor as welnlassthneerich, would not, in that respect , be l iable to the same ob jection as a property qualification. Now, to show that this qualification would bring in a more intelligent class of voters than we have at present, I may venture to assert that one-half of the present voters, if tried by this teat to-morrow, would ba struck off the register; th b e fluitutoaseanveee of the them from being and to e ' disfranchised,property qualification remain during the lives of the present voters, I would suggest that thee• should all remain on the register during the remainder of their lives, but that all new candidates for the elective franchise should be examined by the rule-of-three test, and then that they, like the old voters, when once on the register, should remain there for life. The suffrage would thus be gradually and safely extended as education became more widely diffused, the greatest and best portion of the working classes would be satisfied, and what is more important still, a most powerful impetus would be given to the poor to use every endeavour to get themselves and their chil dren educated by every means in their power, as it would then soon be felt to bo a disgrace to be excluded from the franchise, the principal excluding causes being ignorance and crime. France is a sufficient warning to make us pause before we adopt universal suffrage without universal education ; and unlimited household suffrage would, I think, be little better, as it would not only bring in many uneducated men, but it would shut out num bers who are intelligent and well educated, but who happen not to be householders. If you can at any time spare room for this commu nication i❑ your columns, as one of the working classes I shall feel obliged, as I am anxious that their condition should be improved, and 1 think that a judicious extension of the franchise ought to be the first important step in that direction. I am, Sir, yours obediently, WM. WRIGHTSON. Thorne, Yorkshire, July 9, 1849. TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. Sir,—Ou Monday night the principal debate was on the Scotch Marriages Bill. The ostensible object is to take steps for assimilating the Scottish law of marriage to the English. But the substantial object is to deprive Englishmen and Irishmen of the liberty arising out of the ancient Scottish institution of Gretna Green. It may appear ridiculous, but this is all there is in it. It is an attempt to draw closer the laws for what Addison or Steele in their day called " the preservation of the female game." Nobody doubts that game-preservers in general are a hot-headed and incapable race, exceedingly likely to be found overshooting their own mark, and cutting the throat of their own interest. And there is no appearance of the preservers of the female game making any exception to the rule. Let the case be fairly examined, and sec what it is that is contended fur. A wealthy Englishman, a squire of broad acres, sees danger in any loophole for relaxation of the laws by which he has se cured certain powers over the marriage of his descend ants. Boys do not often insist on juvenile marriage; they prefer their liberty. It is his girls for whom he fears ; and the idea which haunts him is, that they will be led into marriage by some man whose acres or whose position in society shall not be corn spondent to his own. There shall be no attempt to deny the evil ; undeniably it is what a man may justifiably endeavour to resist. But is he taking the way to diminish the danger? Suppose the case of such an untoward event disturbing the drawing .room tranquillity of a well-regulated family. A daughter, unable to resist the attentions of " her heavy dragoon," has consented to marry Lieutenant Spanker who so much distinguished himself in the last steeple-chase, without waiting for legal age or parents' consent. ' And the lieutenant of her choice shall neither be a Sir Charles Grandison nor a reprobate, but what is commoner than either, a man who would not du a wrong gratuitously, and yet not above the lia bility of yielding to temptation if forced upon him. He carries off the daughter; and under the existing state of things, the next post but one brings a penitent letter from the two whom a Gretna Green marriage has made one, hoping forgiveness, and the military leader in particular coveting nothing so muck as to be asked to take wine by his new governor under the governor's own mahogany. But suppose the squire to have carried the alteration in the law, the literary corumunications then take a very ditLrent turn. Instead of the swift advertisement that nothing ie wanted but forgiveness, in a long week cornea a letter, transmitted through the porter of the Junior United Service and suggesting an answer through the same irreproachable functionary, stating the ear nest desire of the military partisan to have immediately marri d Miss --, but regretting that he found it to be impossible. Without the smallest wish of his own, he finds he must beep her fir a furinight, which is the shortest time within which the law will give his conscience ease; and in the meantime he ex presses an anxiety to know what the aff ctionate parent hill do towards encouraging him in the good resolutions he is treasuring for the concluiion of that period. He assures him his daughter is well; and thinks she finds the country agreeable. Is the condition of this respectable family mended, or is it not? The Bill was so near being thrown out (being saved only by a majority of 73 against GS), that there is every probability of its being given up. But nominally it stands for discussion again on Thursday. On Tuesday the motion for a Committee on the Irish Church occupied the whole Of the night. If something; is not done, what is to be the result when fifty thou sand Americans are threatening Windsor Castle? The debate, with few exceptions, was conducted with great mo deration, an index of approaching action on the subject. And this exp - ctation was encouraged by a division of 103 in support of the Committee, to 170 against it. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER. London, July 11, 1849. ROYAL THAMES REGATTA. FIRST DA Y. The great national aquatic meeting at Putney, which has been the all engrossing topic of conversation for some time past, commenced yesterday, and was more than usually attractive. Although this event has for a considerable period formed the chief feature of the season there seems to be an opinion afloat that its existence is near its close, the principal causes assigned for its discon tinuance being the gradual decline of the funds, and the difficulty of finding persons willing to incur th€ trouble and responsibility necessary to produce a regatta of this " Leviathan " character, with anything like a proper degree of spirit. As similar rumours have been previ ously rife with respect to the discontinuance of this aquatic festival,many persons are sanguine enough to look forward to our next year, but others, well acquainted with river sports, entertain an opinion that, under the direction of the Leander Club, who were mainly instrumental in es• tablishing this regatta, in 1843, and upon whom touch of the responsibility has fallen, a series of periedical races during the summer will be produced. Be that as it may, we deeply regret that there should be even a tumour of its discon tinuance—it is purely a British pastime, and ought to he ' supported by all who value our national sports, and it cannot be said that the example of royalty is wanting, as the name of Prince Albert is amongst the most liberal of i s snpp.)rt r.. Should the present lion. Sec. (Mr. Fells), one of the Leander Club, who has, for upwards of three years, discharged the onerous duty most effi ciently, retire, the interests of the regatta, there can be n,) doubt, will be most seriously fainted, but it is to he hoped that he may be induced to continue his valuable services. The weatht r was extremely flue, and the company by far exceeded in numbers the assemblage of the last two or three years; indeed, since the establishment of Ihe regatta, we may safely say tint we never saw a greater Dumber of boats afloat, while Putney and Hammersmith Bridges, and every other place, from which a view could b? obtained of the rowing, including the van extent of towing-path, was crowded with anxious spectators, and the river and shores presented a coup ehril of the most animated description. There were eleven races upon the card, presenting the variety of from fours down to sculls. The sports com menced at half-past three, and continued up to nearly eight in the ovoning; the regulations throughout were admirable, and reflect the utmost credit upon the Sere tary and Committee. Champion Four Oared Race for 100 soya., open to all the world. St. Agnes, London and Newcastle .. (Green) 1 it. Coombes I R. Clasper T. Coombes IL Clasper J. Clasper, cockswain. Watermen's Crew, Oxford ... (Purple) 2 M. Cook I W. Venables A. Boyce W. Penn W. Feet, cockswain. _ _ The Perseverance, Chelsea ... ... (Stripe) 0 T. Chettle T. Holmes G. Healer B. Herring W. Godwin. cockswain. This was the great event of the day. In this race, open to all the world, there had been a union between the Thames and the Tyne, the St. Agnes's crew consist ing of the champions of the two rivers and their brothers; and opposed to them were a crew of London watermen, who had last year, owing to an unfortunate circumstance, been deprived of the opportunity of testing the claim of superiority, and who now again stood forth, a crew from Durham, and two others. The Claspers and Coombeses are known as opponents against each other in a pair-oar wager about two years ago, when the Coombeses were victorious victorious over their two coadjutors of yesterday It said that circumstances, not inclination, exactly the to the union on the part of Coombes. Claspers bad acquired in their forinerT excellence on the par port, and the fair claim to superiorr ew The e et e ories at this of the " national," placed thihsener at the head of the so, that found by their list as the favourite, and week or r t that they rowed daily practice, for tht . 3 with great regularit)l',astnwud were not affected by each other's style, t h e y were backed at even against th e field. The race extended from Putney to Chiswick Air. The winners took the lead and kept it well, coming in first by two lengths. The Oxtord and Chi-lsea crew made a gallant race of it for some distance, whfn the Oxonians went away, and although at ii atnmersmith-bridge they fouled a barge, and broke a thawl, they continued their Second ll e , l t. The" Never -mind it," London . M`Kinney I Newel Doubkdea 1 Pocock W. Cox. Cockswain. The Feathers Crew, Wandswonh ... (Pink) 2 T. Jsraes I G. Coverer J. Salter I G. Salter S. Salter, Cockswain. Mazoppa Crew, Durham ... (Yellow and Black) 0 W. Foster I W. Haws= W. G. Mann i H. Eddy IV. Forgo., Cockswain. (Ilecl) 1 _ \~\ Brocas Crew, Eton (Light Blue) 4: E. Windsor I R. Woolhouse G. Ilill 1 R. E. Money \ . Perkins, Cockswaiti. Next to the united crew of the Combese and Ciaspers, the ".Never -mind-it" were the favourites, and Many did not indeed hesitate to express their conviction that they woul.l be found competent to defend the high character of saperiurity Which the Landon water-men have so emi nently attained, while others regreted , that anything should hove occurred to hare caused the necessity of a division of their strength. The Durham crew were next in request. It was a fair start; after which Red began to draw a head, and off the committee-barge had cleared them selves. The other two made a very close race for some distance, when Pink took the second place. The Never• mind it won by a length and a half; the third crew were two lengths behind the second; the other nowhere. Grand Heat. The beautiful style exhibited in the St. Agnes, not withstanding the capital work exhibited in the Never mind-it, made the former the favourite at slight odds, and it was justly considered from what had been wit nessed that the race would be entirely between :these two. The assemblage at this time amounted to many thousand,, who exhibited the utmost anxiety to see the decision. The St. Agnes crew ... 1 . ••• The Never- .• t 2 ••• •• •• •• It was certainly a mo s t ga ll ant race;• they all went • away together at a most extraordinary pace, and after a-few strokes the two clack crews began to show their heads in front, the S. Agues with about half a yard of lead. At the committee-barge the St. Agnes had got half.their length clear, and the other party putting on a desperate Spurt, urt decreased it in the next few strokes by A foot or so, but the others, with their fine even beautifully last ing style, gradually stole away from them, but were closely pressed by the Never-mind-it, who exhibited throughout the greatest game and determination, but could not better their fortune. The St. Agnes wow' by a length. Apprentices' Match, for a Coat, Badge, and Freedom, the presentation of E. Morris, Ecq. First Heat. R. Rush, Westminster ... (Stripe) 1 R. J. Scott, Southwark ... (Black) 2 R. Fuller, Lambeth ... (Green) 0 P. W. Holls, ditto ... (Purple) 0 Two others started. Rush led almost immediately after the start, kept it, and woo by a length. The se cond and third men made a very spirited race—all, in deed, rowed very gallantly. Second H ea t. J. Chitty, Richmond ... (Yellow and White) 1 G. Shaw, W estm i nster... ... (Light Blue) G. Penn, Twickenham... ... (Red and Yellow) 0 R. T. Murton, Lambeth ... (Black and Yellow) 0 Two others st ar t e d. Yellow end White shortly after the start fouled a barge, and were thrown back, which gave Black and Yellow and Blue the advantage of posi tion. Notwithstanding the accident, the winners went to work with much game, and passed their opponents in succession, winning by their own length. Grand Heat. J. Chitty, Richmond ... G. SLAW, Westminster... ... o This was decided to be a dead heat. It was through out a good spirited race, but the river was so studded with boats that the men's course was oft impeded, and Rush, upon some accident, capsized, while Yellow and White was fouled near home by a skiff, but, notwith standing, endeavoured to regain his position of first man which he bad lost by the foul, and rowed in abreast of his adversary. Wstprtnen Scullers for 50 Sovereigns. First Heat. Joseph Leach ... ..• ... (Red and White) 1 Thomas Cole ... ••• (Yellow and Black) 2 John Wilson ... ...(Light Blue) 0 William Forest ... ... (Blue and White) 0 was Two others st ar t e d. It a most excellent race; they were altogether nearly half the distance with scarcely anything that could be *milled a lead. The winner then drew right away and came in first by two lengths; it was a game contest for second place. Second Heat. J. A. Messenger ... ... ••• (Yellow) 1 John Rae ... ... ••• (Purple) 2 George Henderson (Pink) 0 R. Messam (Red) 0 Two others started. It was a good race throughout, the men being in a cluster for two cr three minutes. Messenger soon went in front and won cleverly. Grand Heat. J. A. Me. , ;xenger J. Leach A rapid start was seconded by Leach gaining an ad vanc, closely IN aited upon by Rae and Cole. The win ❑er, who had the worst of the start, and who subse quently gave way to prevent a foul, soon rowed by the latter two, and at the point near the Crab-tree Chafing and Leach, after being skull and skull for a few strokes, the winner went into the first place. Amateur Four-oared Race for a Silver Challenge Cup. The Thames Club, London ... ...(Pink) 1 Leander ditto ... (Red) 0 Ariel, Cambridge ... (Light Blue) 0 St. George's, ditto ... (Red and White) 0 They were in a cluster for a few strokes, and then the St. George's took a slight lead for a few momenta, which they, however, did not maintain, and gave place to the winners, who kept it all the way. The Leander made several plucky efforts for the second place, but were fouled by the Arid, and had to make a sheer in towards the shore, the whole occurring in the heat of the race. Amateur Pair-oared Race, for Two Silver Cups. G. P. Edwards and F. Marsham ... (Pink) 1 Berry and T. trardey ... (Stripe) 0 F. G. Chillingworth and J. D. Chillingworth 0 The winners, after the first two or three minutes, did as they liked. They went off with the lead, kept it, and won by some lengths. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. LIVERPOOL, TUESDAY EVENING. The following is a complete list of the arrival.) up to the present time. CUP llonsEs.—John Cosser, Keleshea, Sylvan, The Premier, Portrait, Ruby, Woolwich, Bon Mot, Westow, Thringarth, Essederius, Sauter la Coup e , an d L am b' s Wool. FOR Two AND TIIREE YEAR OLD STARES.—C. by Irish Birecatcber, dam by Dr. Spatax—Lady Godly's, Potentia filly—Sicyon—f by Jerry, dam by Actsem— Cadger, f by Don John—out of Sister to Aidderby— Hammer and Tongs—Mahascah—Probity—Catpain Grant—Shilmalier West—French Susy—Leonidas— Steppingstone—the Italian—Sweetheart,—Denbury— Arena—Marriott—f b Gladiator, out of Lolly• p , p—f by Gladiator, out of Mareschina—the Kaight of Anvel,—Tingles—f by Charles the Twelfth, out of Fury—Harum Scarum—f by Jereel, out of Muff—Voyager—Timothy— Ctllcen Rhue, all two yr olds—the Flying Dutchman—Belus— Old Dan Tut ka. —Chantrey—Roland—Strongbow—Elthiron—Cigares to —Circus the Widow Magician —Penthesilea—and several others for the Plates. LIVERPOOL. WEDNESDAY MORNING. LATEST CUP BETTING. (BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.) 7to 4 ag , t Thringarth I 6to I agst John Cosser 2 to 1 a g st E sse d ar i us J 10 to 1 agst lideahea. BELTING AT MANCHESTER.-TUESDAY. LIVERPOOL Cur.-2iWlsgstiniingarth 6515t0 2 agst E,sedarins (t)-8 to 1 ft git Kelashes (t)-8 to 1 zigst John Corse: (t)-12 to 1 agst Wel“ . ow (t). GOODWOOD STAKLS.—IO to 1 agst Maid of Masbam (t)-11 to 1 ng..t lernbill-12 to 1 agst Tophana-12 to 1 agst Syrup-14jto 1 agst Giselle-16 to 1 agstiT4 l l. flower. • - CRICKET. KENT v. ENGLAND. b te y rty , , ,u 4 nls t t o c n il d Monday, Ll( T y l d ie l,, rze s syst i l stin o g f ui t s h h i e s d, g a r s anc o l u, large attendance of spectator& Several thousands again crowded the ground, and it WRS the subject of remark that the muster of persons of distinction was even more numerous than on the first :lay of the contest. A refer ence to tho score will inform the reader, that having been herded by England on the first innings by 44 runs. Kent went in fur their second hands, when 101 re,ulted from their efforts. Of these Pilch obtained 34. Mr. Felix, 16 ; Ilinkly, 15 ; Adams, 11 ; Martin gcll, 10; whilst all the rest made but single figures only. England then went in to obtain 57 to tie, or 58 to win, and it will be seen that the required number was got with seven wickets to spare. ne final score was as tollows : KENT. ---- W. Pilch, b Widen 5 c Riddling b Dean ,•• 6 Holland, b Wisden Martingell, b Lillywhite 7 b Wisden F. Pilch, b Wisden A. Mynn, Esq., b Lylly w hit e 3 b Dean' Adams, b Lillywhite. N.Felix,Esq.,c Dean,b Wisden 19 ) Martin, b Lillywhite . Ililiver, b Lillywhite... n b o Clarke la 'u rk t e ... *********** . 16 Clifford, b Wisden 0 b Lillywhite . 15 liinkly, not out.. Byes 83 101 ENGLAND. __ _ b 11111.4 r 0 s Clifford, b Holland 15 A. Iraygarth, Elq" b M •nn 1 b Ilynn ............. .. 24 20 Dean'7C b (- i . h ill i r l Ze:rhi: q b . 'llill y er . . . 12 not out ...... ...... ..... 10 Box c • Parr b Mynn ...... ......... .... 42 not out Ch es ter b Hinkly 3 Guy, not out C. Ridding, Esq.,l 9 w b Il ynn 3 %Visden, b Mynn ........... ~. 0 Clarke, a Cliff or d, 9 lynn ... 11 Lillywhite, 9 Myna ..... 1 Byes 9, Wide 1 ... ...................... 10 7 Byes ... .. 127 England won by seven wickets [ADVERTISEMENT.]—The unfailing success of Hot nway's Pills and Ointment in the Cure of Ringworm, and all Diseases of the Skin.—A medical gentleman, residing at Lima whose child had been severely aEicted with Ringworm for upwards of six years, tried every known remedy to cure this dreadful disease hut in vain, as it was of so inveterate a cha racter as to baffle the skill of himself and other practition ers. As a last resource he was persuaded to use Holloway's (hot ment and Pills, these medicines having obtai ned much cele brity in ali parts of South America, and the had the happy effect of soundly curing the child and perfectly eradicating the disease from the sptem.—Sold by all Druggists, London. Druggists, and at 1.),,. lessor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, DIEPPE ltalLwAy.--At the general meeting just bkid in Paris, Count J.Ylltou ace in the chair, the report stated that the receipts for the fist eight months' working of the line mounter! to 341,133 f,, and the ex penditure to 266,503 E, le/tiring a balance of 44,630 f. A treaty was. agrei d to by a large m a j or ity f or a mix‘d H orking tract i o n of the railway with the Havre line. and the humber of the directors was reduced from nine to dye, .A"