The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-01 00:00:00

there 1. A ll' el. e 1 " 1 House in said' ;estedo ol d the rn rep he N 74. le c er• sta ted ere {he r. 11"1 i n ) ; er. en ding bd info" e fow ,s do°r d ;rn' . as !bit ce ,i4ff , 104 11 e( th‘g vs) 'doe g•iti er I et . , 11 ' !---(hear, hear, hear !)—i-le asked pat don „, ( ne House for having attempted what was be• ' ll 4 ' ll his strength, and concluded by moving that, ai l Papers presented to the House by the c0m b.1.4111 of his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, e referred to a Select Committee. i Colon e l D AVIES secon d e d the motion. He t 41 ‘ild not perform his doty if he did not come f ,411 eard when he saw his Majesty's Ministers taking ti v . " a".lage of a temporary alarm to make dan. ' er ° l la inroads into the Constitution. 1-13,1 they 4 t shut their eyes for a considerable time to the f:"°teetlings occurring in the country, and al livred them to go on with a view to come to the ° " , e and apply for extraordinary powers ? The halters on the table showed something like a de :1141" it) establish despotism instead of the law:— ' e "rs hear ! from the Opposition.)—For when cheating' wet e agitating the country, when the i ' ew spapers teemed with alarming details, anti 14": Were made publicly, his Majesty's Mini l'ltets did not interfere. It was only of late that th ey had made a feeble attempt to arrest the pro titess of s e diti o n and danker. He was of opinion .?• I t many of those public meetings were attend 'at' With p er il to t h e C ons ti tu tio n , and tended to :Mor e li ze the people. He would therefore not withhold his consent front any moderate. measure Zleulated t o put down sedition anti leneilion. Ile When he saw a set of bills tending to subvert I le liberties and constitution of the country, as tis at lg as he bad a breath he would use eit against -we rn• The _Noble Lord opposite spoke of re a l l : l asing disaffection ; but what was the cause of at disaffection ? Was it nor the overpower= ; . 11 g . • borthen of taxation, and would it be re reeseed by a n increase of the army, which would d the an addition to the taxes necessary ? Were tl 'e complaints of the people to be answered with ,'t bayonet ? Even gnawing that the present Z ea sureswerenot attended with danger to the Con eitotion, how was this new army to he appoint ' and supported with a revenue falling off at the ta ct' of five millions a year ? if Ministers were i • Oly desirous of pacifying the people, inetend of kncreasing the army, let them 'educe the public '4"thens. They had the melos Of doing so, but tee ,i , the di spos ition. There was no depart meet ; °4l lected with the army in which the salaries ba t " expenses were not doable ..vbet they were in ° {) 6, so that after five years of peace, the country l'iil more for her military establishment Chan itt "e midst of real. lie then contended that it te as tint fair to compare the situsitiou of this tt.ountry with that of France before the Revolt,- Irm.) - In France trspotism heti prevailed for 144.1 'Y ages, a nd when the Revolution broke out, ft ".,ts. aide.; 's the dawning of true liberty and t et "til ha l ipioeis, —eilst Eegland bad long been ''" 'lie. ,- j.,vineot of a tree Constitution, and e9 "ld gain nothing by , a change. Had not the ''''''oeh G, , vete•ment shut their eyes, and attempt ' : 4 , 1 a Ceuree i t measures which only aggravated 61, ri,e e‘t n: would have been difiereet. " r tre his Majeetv's Nitetsters now to follow their ')ample, the most dreadful corrup• ion must in "iiably result. Tttittkottg, tinder every point of ~.t iev r, that inquire was necessary, he seco nded the '‘otion of tire No ' hic * Loud, and trotted that it larittld be enter aioed liv the House. 11r. 13ATHURST Si'" with deep !egret the course 1 ' 1 ' 4 4 ed by the Noble Lord; and :he respectable y of men ‘enii formed the Opposition iii 'hat kose. He had hoped that in a crisis like.tlos l reeent, when the dangers of, the country had nett so fully substantiated by the documents laid befor e the House—(Hear, (tear, bear, from the tl Peinsition)—their course would have been more co nsistent with the interests and the call of the t ountry, who looked to Parliament, and to them • lei a part of it, for assistance in this time of terror sa d peril. If they thought that by so doing they would conciliate the favour of the people, they t teted in a manner which experience bad proved. l ° he ineffective anti improper. It was known th at the Radicals did not look v.ith an eye of con ' 44 ence on the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, IP Ild would i! not most become those Hon, Gentle ken to mat k the bloat) barrier between, and not tr+ hold out to those individuals the tacit, though trot intended encouragement. of such conduct as t , t 't present in Parliament ? He had considered ti by agreeing to the Address, and moving 141 Amendment, not in opposition to it, but 14 an addition to its strength, they had • Anhted that the collective wisdom of the House l ' i ng required to find some mode of removing sedi• qoes practices. Even now they did not attempt t o deity the existence of such practices, nor the tklikrnihig state to which they lied reduced the t ountry. And when it was the object of men like the itadivals, to loosen the bonds of society, and 1.15 throw their elements into the primeval chaos from whence it had originated, was it too much s is s i say that measures like the presen t should not )tit proposed, at a period when the whole country . were looking up to Parliament, not for these owe- I bres—(Hear, and laughter from the Opposition), : ''"-not for these measures in particular, but for I Nne that would repreks existing evils ? lie blam ell th e Noble Lord for etoleevourinto stop the •,:il l 'oceedings of the House, by . advising the ap , kiintment of a Committee to examine papers, ' "rile of which it bad oot been thought proper to • • . Produce. —(Hear, hear !)—ln this his Majesty's L • t _ G overnment had followed the principle adopted ',,, ey the House, that it was not expedient Parlia !, s ' • Acta should lie called *llion to give its opinion on i l Case which might mnre effectually conic before a t court of Justice. With respect to some of the r)eiinta in which the information produced had ett represented to be deficient, the Noble Lord • ju ld laid some stress on the reading of the Riot 'l e t• That Act, he maintained, bad been read e x itree tunes at Manchester on the day of the meet- I ":;. The lest time it bad been read by Mr. Sil ' : e "er,• a Magistrate, who bad gone into the r 9wd, and by a sudden rush of the multitude t rinn some cause - or other, had been knocked .' lit )wo• But be thought that the Noble Lord ~a sc ribed too much i m p o rta nce to th e reading of t l 'e.Ri ot. Act, as connected with the dispersion' of .1 4 meeting; fur that Act did not repeal the corn ' Non law which authorized the Magistrates to ,• i l ir t'eeed as they had done. The" Noble Lord ad i''ilied t h at t hilling was practised previous to i ''.., • I :e Itith o f A ugust , but contended t h a t t h e peo ,4 i . 11 . 1 ' , hail only commenced aiming themselves , - 4 1 tr the an e nt' of th a t d a y. N ow it w as proved, that before the 16th, not drilling merely was carried on, but such training as that the word " Fire" was given, as well as the : word " March." It was necessary that the individuals thus trained should go about at night with pikes in their bands. But it must surely be ac knowledged, that if they learnt to move, to wheel, and all the evolutions of military bodies, they had acquired that science which was most im portant and dangerous, and should arms be after wards given them, they would become as formi dable- as it was in the nature of such a force to be. It was evident what their leaders intended when they had got them in this state of prepara- They intended by large meetings to carry some great political point ; and when their de clarations were lo .ked at, it was not difficult to say that the object was the total overthrow of the existing Constitution. 'fire question then was, whether the House had not sufficient grounds and sufficient information before it -to legislate upon, and endeavour to check the growing dan ger, without going into the Committee recom mended by the Noble Lord ? •One of the argu ments of the Noble Lad for a Committee, at least if any tiring was to be inferred from his statement, was to enquire into. the reasons wiry General Byng was not upon the spot on the 16 , 11 of August. If any blame was meant to be attach ed on this ground, he should he glad to know how a Committee could do it away. grounds, then, consider them al«rgether, had tire Noble Lord laid for his motion ? A motion whch, if it %vete only tor the mischief of the delay which it would occaion, ought to he resisted by all those who stood pledged, as it were, to the country, by their vote of the Address, to adopt the most prompt measures to stop the evil with which they were metiaced, and apply the most imt»ediate re medy. Something had been said of the confidence asked by Government. Government had, how-, eve', asked very little on its own statements, but it would not have hero too much if it had presumed so far as it had done on what was instly dire to it, and on the rublic notoriety of the tad his on wch it proceeded. But it had done more ; it liar) laid a grass of information before Parliament, end made out a case for the measure it proposed. The Noble Lord, in One part of his address, had expresssd a wish that the names of the parties communicaring these statements had been given Bar surely it was unnecessary to t(11 'he N-ble Lord, that the personal safety of tire individuals forbade such a course, and tint no admioistration ort ,tarth would be warranted in hazarding the lives of persons who clots came for .ward to serve the State.—(lle-+r !)—Another of the arguments .of the Noble Lard was, that as Lancashire was the chief sea! of the malcontents, and as the Menchester ,Meting had been sop presird by a stir torte, there was no apprehen sion of the tutores Was it • possible to argue in this Way A4ctinst the evidence from every quarter, which was unanimous in stating the greatest dan ger to exist. Was it not even natural, in the com mon course of things, rather to think it likely that the strength of thetiiseffected would aug msnt, and that when hereafter they were opposed to the lawful authorities, they would he prepared for resistance ) Tire meeting at Burnley afforded a proem of this, tt proof of so necessary a come qui•oce were wanting: '!'here-they met in more perfect array, with stave's in their hands, and pikes to fit them, in their breasts, end with pistols, and every show of determined force. Bra evert were not this the fact, were there no other fea tures in the transactions of these times to calf for the interference of 'Parliament in a direct way Was it possible for the country to exist for any useful purpose, for manufacturing, for com merce, nay for daily labour, it such a system as had been unfolded to them were allowed to pre vail ? The general welfare was incompatible with these meetings, and military threats anti prepara tions ; and if they looked for further demonstra tion, it was to be found in the particular works of assassination, which sprung. from the base. ruin ciples so assiduously dissentinated. At Stockport, and at Manchester, they had seen the Civil offi cers shot at and wounded, for merely performing their duty ; and one Constable hail even been stoned to death without the possibility of inter ference to save him. As for the Magistrates, they were exposed to constant abuse arid outrage ; and could it be but that such a state of things, if permitted, must ultimately succeea in destroy ing all subordination and loyalty ? Already men durst hardly evince good disposition in these districts. If active in defence of the laws, their persons were endangered ; and, it they discountenanced the attempts of the evil minded, their property and fortunes were injur ed, for they bemire marked men ; and whatever heir trade or occupation was, means were taken to hurt them in it. This must gradually sap, and in the end, root out attachment to the establish ed order. On the other band, he ventured, con. fidently to affirm, that iu the papers before the House (in :which it was not meant to be said that every thing known was stated) there was a case made out of dangerous combina• lions inn many parts—in Cheshire, in Lanca shire, it) Yorkshire, in Scotland, ford in fine a general state of disorder *which dematuled more effectual regulation than any that now existed. Great stress had been laid on the meeting at Leeds, and on other meetings separating without violence ; but, for the present argument, it was no matter how many meetings took place and dis persed peaceably. In the pieces referred to it was distinctly stated, that nothing but the know ledge that a body of soldiers were at hand 'to quell any excess prevented an •explosion. And was this the constitutional method ? Was it tin der the awe of a military check that the mis chievons were to assemble, and the good citizen to be protected ? Surely Honourable Gentlemen would not contend for this, especially when there could Pent) doubt of the purposes which the dis affected had iu view—purposes which they open ly avowed and entirely agreed in, only differing about the fit time for carrying them into effect.— Their aim, indeed, was to overthrow tire Consti tution,. and while one demagogue insisted that now was the time to strike, another held that they ought to spend a longer period in making ready to strike with effect. The Noble Lord and Gentlemen opposite, had dwelt a great deal on the subject of conciliation. Their advice was to 1. t ion. conciliate, but they did not enter into particu lars, and tell them how it was to be done. He would be glad to leers in what way tber propos ed to apply this restorative. There appeared to him to be but two ; either by yielding their prin ciples to the principles of the leaders of these meetings, or by meeting the views of some Gentle men on the opposite side, and giving them what they did not ask for, Moderate Reforin. Nov with respect to the abandonment of their principles to satisfy a demagogue, clamour, he did not imagine the idea could be entertained for an instant ; and with regard to the latter elteroetive, it was evident that it would not have-the effect predicted—it would not , conciliate. The whole matter, then, came to this—they should try to al leviate the distress of the people where it prevail ed ; though it was not tine that the spirit of in surgency was cot respondent to the Wan's Of itity particular body, or that the most inflamed were the most poor in the districts where irritation and discontent were most g -- eneral. It was both unjust ant) injurious to suppose that Government was not anxious to do 311 that was practicable it) this re spect ; but it would - be a fallacy to hold out that there were not certain cases which could neither reach nor cure. In the nature of human affairs it almost always happened that every good ' was attended by its concomitant evil. Even our extended commerce and national prosperity had this .alloy, that at times great branches of trade would be thrown out of subsistence, and, those employed in them be exposed to many in conveniences. But could any Committee of ln quiry produce a remedy for this , grievance ? It it could, lie would vote for the motion of the Noble Lord. As it could Out, he conjured the House to resist that motion, which, plausibly asking for information, in reality would have the effect of parlilyzing what they had altady done, told en conraging those who were going on from day to day with their machinations, to overturn every legitimate authority, end who, if not impeded by the measures adopted by Parliament, must ad vance towards the accomplishment of their de sign. The House was hound to folfil the pledge it had carried to the foot of the 'l'ilrone, unit the people looked to it for the protection which that - pledge promised. sir M. W. RLDLC? supported the motion, and asserted that the connrty looked up to the Oppo sit:on for protection against the severe measotes proposed by Governmelo. He denied that those out his side of the House had any wish to encou rage the Radical Reformers, whose.ohject, they were aware, was to overthrow the Coostitution. Their wild visions of Annual Parliaments, Uni versal Suffrage, 'and Election by Ballot, he con demned as much as the Hon. Gentlemen over the way. Bet he contended, that a rigid inquiry ; into the Manchester meeting was necessary, and that the law proceedings on that subject, now reduced to the single :Jethro against Hoot for a conspiracy, were not enough to satisfy the coun try. He also condemned t h e ha s ty approbation • bestowed on the 'Magistrates, for which, he ar gned, there was no• precedent. Another ground of inquiry was, that the Noble Lord (Castie- . reagh) had proposed permanent and general mea sures, for temporary and. local evils. The Right Hon. Gent. who spoke last had required an ex planatiott. of shat Wag Meant by the advice to conciliate. He would tell him what was his sense of conciliation ; and he wished it were more in the months and minds of Ministers. He meant by it that it was right to convince the people, while they coerced 'thent on one hand, they sympathized with their distresses on the other ; that they would listen to their petitions, and redress their grievances, and above all, would take the subject of a Parliamentary Reform, into consideration. Parliamentary Reform had made so strong an im pression within the last twelve months, that no thing short of the House entertaining that qees tion would have any effect ; and he earnestly re. commended their ac:oping it, instead of reside lions which never would put down irritation. Mr. LONG WIILLIOLEY began in so low a tone of voice that we could not make out more of his intfOthleiory sentences than that he censured the political language used by the sneakers on the Opposition side of the Hoose, as calculated to increase rather titan diminish the inflammation that was acknowledged to be so industriously spread abroad. He then adverted to the for tner arguments of these Gentlemen against Committees of Inquiry, and wondered how they could now adept the entitely opposite course, of recommending what they bad hitherto so strenuously objected to. One Hon out able Gentleman heti carried this opinion so tar, that on the proposal for the Committee of Finance last Session, he had declared it was no better than a packed J,iry, mid could produce no desirable result. The Ilonoorable Gentlemen went on to 6110 W; that no advantage could arise from agreeing to the motion ; nor would it allay the ferment in the country. The (locum. H is laid before them proved , this plain fact, and it was supported by every legal and other authority which had been called on to deliver an opinion, that an alarming state of disaffection existed. This was the spontaneous and unanimous opinion of all the honourable men, in whatever capacity, called up on to inquire into the situation of the country. — They therefore stood in need of no Committee to ascertain this tact. It seemed to-him that Gen- tlemen opposite had abandoned the main point at issue ; at least he was sure it was so considered by all the Magistrates with whom he was in the habit of acting, who tho►►gt►t that the great ques tion for the House to decide was, whether the Manchester Meeting was legal or illegal, and es pecially, which character the conduct of the Ma gistrates bore. But as they had blinked these subjects, he was inclined very much to doubt the pretensions set up by the Gentlemen on the other side to a superior knowledge of ►he public opi nion. if they had possessed this, they would have come fairly forward, and not have yielded, as they had done, the principal matters at issue. —The Honourable Gentleman then went into the assertions which had first appeared in the public newspapers, and were then re-echoed by the Opposition, and contended that if these had been true, there would have been nto►ch greater in "lamination than there really was. tie alluded to an Hon. Baronet's (Sir W. Crespigny's) tale of Woe reverting a venerable Clergyman to ano- I her atrocious story of a cruel cordon - of troopi being drawn ronnd the Meei q g; and to the con duct of the Grand Jury of which had since been contradicted, and shown to be unfounded. He was convinced that net better metnod conid be devised to promote ihe 'views of the Reformers, by bringing the House Tutu contempt, than to call upon it - to / exercise its judicial. functions on such occasions as the present, and interfere wit!) what would be miieti -more constitutionally and properly done, where withesses were upon their Oaths before Jurits in the same situation; and as no one circumstance rvas so much calculated to keep.up the irritation they wilted to allay, at not corning to some decisive restrictive nreasurs, he would give his vote against the motion. - ' Mr.ll. KINNAIRD rose at the•satne time with Lord Lascelles, told several other Members.' lia , in4 obtained the Speaker's voice, he apologised for pressing his claim to a hearing, in preference'to the Noble Lord, and for throwing . himself on the u r inal courte.y of the ['Ouse towards thos . e who addressed-them for the first time. He was imdeed anxious to address tht in, because he' thought it very little matter avho spoke i,tttr.that night on the liberties of the people, and it was his earnest desire to deliver his sentiments while they had yet a Constitution—(A laugh, and a cry of hear.) He professed not to be acquainted With the usages of the House, nor did he know io whet manner they ought to treat a speech from the Throne ; but when that speech stated that invie ty and dissatisfaction were prevalent among the people of England, it did appear to hjni that the least thing they could do was to give it their most tormal consideration. In Ihis revect there fore the Noble Lord had done what the Ministers of the Crown ought to hare done, both - in that character and as a Minister for the People, having a seat that House. He confessed tha't lie felt an alarm, equal, he believed he might say err perior, to any Gen , leman who had spoken ou subject, because every thing lie had heard in the course of their procettlings increased it ; and if Ile could not the House to attend to what Ire had to urge, he would leave it sill more alarm ed, as he should feel Chat prejudice and passion . had got possesion of their minds, ant' th.o - they were ready .to take the word of Ministers for what the papers hetore them contradicted. If impiety and sedition prevailed in the districts even the most affected, the Gentlem2n belonging to these places ought to out wi;11 their swords, and with their tenantry around them oppose the danger. Were what was represented true ; were the numbers so formid.ble and the array so dreadful, this would have been the course pursued . ; but the revtrse was the case, and the'y had felt their properties and families in the midst of the peril. Lord Derby, too, who in July applied for one thonsand stand of aims to arm so many men, had not in the middle of August beets able to officer even one battalion. From these circum4 stances' he concluded there were great exag• gerations, and that more alarm was excited than the real state of circumstances warrant- ed. Eve's to that Horse, he would suggest, where education, honour, good feeling, nobleness - Of nature, and every thing tha , could 'tend to pro duce suavity and teciprocalconsidertrtion abound. eti—even in that noose, in the heat of discussion, it sometimes happened that false mo tives Were attributed; and Gent le inew seemed as if they considered others to be actually hostile to them and to the Constitution. If that could he the case among them, how much more might they suppose that the mistrust, alarm, and accusation in these districts prozeeded from similar causes. It was therefore or them to parse and retl:.ct whe ther it %%mold not be more wise to endeavour to allay these alarms, and to look to ho It sides of the question. lie believed On his COnSdenCe that the people, too, were excited by alarm on their parts, and hail had recourse to training, in order Wit they might be able to rely on each other, (Hear, hear, hear ! front the Ministerial side.) — It they believed that they were; or were about to be placed out of the pale of the law.; if no man could confide in his neighbour, they Vie House) might lOok for assassioations, and tor a- state of things whets no Gentleman could walk abroad un armed for his persoAl protection. He was firmly persuaded that much of the present evil arose train the declaration uttered in the House two years ago, that Government would rely on olnainiog information by the means of spies. Did it not occur to them that thefic spies were likely to betray the Government that employed thern ? It they looked attentively to the papers produced, it would be reckoned tar ft om improbable that great parts of their contents were derived from such sources. He called on the House to pause, to inquire, and especially to endeavour to devise employment for the distressed. Although no . de mons of going at soy length into that subject, he took this opportunity of saying a few words its favour of Parliamentary Reiman. Alloding to, and describing the Doke of lAdl, ot2iotainefl that it ought not to be construed into treason, to stand up for such improvements in the Constitution. Not that he did not thinle'the people were in error when they claimed these as inalien able rights : they had no inalienable right but the light to be well governed. But he was cer 'Lao that instead of imputing treason to them fur such error, it would he wise to try conciliation. The people 'would be satisfied with a Reform tar short or %that they stated in their Resolutions. They would,enti6..de a great deal if met try con cession ; and - it was unreasonable to hold that be cause they asked many things widen perhaps ought not to be granted, they would not gratefully ac cept what was fit and expedient. Ile read one of the Resolutions, passed - (we believe at Leeds) in support of this opinion. It invited the rich to come forward, sold lead the Petitioners to obtain the Radical Reform' they sought ; declaring at the same time, that the interests of the rich and poor were identified on this point. In conclusiou he apologized for his language, if throtigh 'any inadvertency it had caused hint to appear inimical to the aristocracy or higher classes. Such a sen timent he disclaimed, and avowed himself friendly to all classes of the community. Lord LAscELLes said, that there bad been no intention on the part of the Magistrates of Man• chester, to disperse the Meeting by military force, until the very day on which it happened. In support of this, he stated, ou the 'authority of latI0 11 " 1 (r 0N els poP e ib i e the to the , es that