The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-21 00:00:00

snore,?, received the Report, and ordered the ti.itd reading to take place to-morrow.—Ad journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. CIVIL LIST. The CITANCELLoIt of the t.i;xcligiavEß brought up certain Papers awl FiAtiOlaieS relative to the contingencies of the Civil Liit ; which vivre or dered to be printed. lie 'also postpone(' his in tended Motion f or a V ote on account o f t h e same till Wednesday. Mr. Psscoe. GtiRN'FIELL moved fora tiveekl . yitc :. reunt of all Bank Notes and Bank . Pirst - iiilltc - dk: - tinguishing their amount, -uitli:ther:(4trifillut of all Notes above St. ; and the•mggrepte amount of the whole which had been issued since the 3d of November till the latest period that it could be made up to.—Agrerd to. NEWSPAPER STAMP BILL, tie. Mr. JOHN SMITH presented a Petition from cer tain Booksellers and Publishers of Works in Num bers. The Hon. Geotlentan said, there - was no trade in the Kingdom of more importance to the morals et;d happiness of the lower classes, or to the religion of the nation at large; than that blanch of the bookselling hoe to which the peti tioners belonged. The petition stated, that they published a great number of works, chiefly oil subjects of divinity, or the arts and seieaces, which being set forth in the form of cheap perio dical publications, were within the reach of per sons of small property, who would not be able to purchase them, if they were obliged to pay for the whole work at once; that .tbey made a point not to publish any work on political subjects, trot to allow any persons in their employ to sell any publications but those of a moral or religions:na ture, in most instances procuring security, by timid, from them et, that effect ; and Petitioiiers coo ceived there w as no pl ant b etter calculated, . more effectual in roitveyiog lust ructiotiani these sit jects t o d ie /aw er o f tler i than that followed by theist. Thee prayed, therefore, that some t, t. vision would he made to exempt %mks published by them in the . manner above stated, trout the operation Of the Newspaper Stamp Bill, at pie sem in its progress through the House. If this we r e not dorte, Petitioners stated, that above ogle million of capital , oiployed. us the boohsulling trade its the publication of chelp numbers, Leonid inetirably ire ChtOwti back upon those who bad embarked in that business, besides suffering some dintityttiott trout the sudden cffect of the . F I tills Itt is statement, the 14 , M. Gentleman te triarke'l, it was evident, that it the Bill passed in its picsent SlRtpr, if woldil destroy all th a t hide portion of floe cratiii4l; of the poorer classes drat WAS fierViCeitble to 'Lens —Ordered to lie on the table, and to he rioted. Mr .\,lattTLN , utade his motion, " That there he laid , !,c. House an accouist of all the Ex chequer hinve beets issued since the Ist of September rt•;t, the rate of premiums, discouor, and iuteress, stud wlooi issued ;" which was agreed to. Mr. DOGDALE presented a petitiOn from cer tain Booksellers belonging to Birmingham a, d • Warwickshire, against the Blasphemous and Se ditious Lobel Bill ; certain clauses of which thry viewed with great alarm, particularly that *which made it Bauishmeot for a second ogeoce. petitioners stated, that a great part of their trade consisted in selling Books sent down horn Lon don, a small pare of which even they had not time to read. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, that this petition spoke the sclitintents of every Bookseller in the Kingdom. The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Lord STataLay presented a Petition from an in dividual of the name of lieuty Fisher, stating, that Ite•earried on the business of a bookseller, at Liverpool, London, and rations other places in the. Milted' Kingdom ; and that lie employed au immense capital its printing and publishing books on religious and moral sobiects, in small (mas hers, at a cheap rate and he was tea( tol that if the new measures of restriction were to pass into laws, this capital would be idle, as lie would not be able to carry on his bushiest in this particular branch were that to be the case.—Ordcied• to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. W. SMITH presented a Petition from seve ral individuals of Bristol, stating, that if the pre sent Bill respecting Libels were permitted to pass, no man of respectability would place his capital or his character at stake in the bookselling sine for the future.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. BIRCH presented a Petition from the Book sellers of Liverpool, against certain clauses in the Libel 13il1 ; and particularly that one which pro posed to m4ke it banishment for the second of fence against its provisions. —Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. BERNAL presented a Petition (corn cer tain Booksellers in the City of London and its neighbourhood, complaining of the provisions of the Blasphemous and Seditious Libel Bill. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR thought, that atter the sen timents of a great part of the nation had already been sent to the House in opposition to the Libel Bill, a longer time should be allowed, to give time for further expression of the public voice on that subject. lie was sure, that the inure peti tions were heard respecting it, the wore would be seen the impropriety of passing .it under its present provisions. The Petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. SUPPLY. On the Order of the Day being read, the R owe went into a Committee of Supply, when Mr. ROBERT WARD moved for a Vote of 250,0001. on account of the Ordnance E,iimates. iir. Hulls expected that the Hon. Genclenian wool,l have favoured the House with a. statement why the ►amount of these Estimates v 733 larger for the present year than for the one preceding. In the present state or Europe, which we were told from the Throne was such as to promise a long state of pe3ce, he was much at a loss to • know , what causes there could be to increase our expellees. He observed that the cost of that de p,rtment of the public accounts was. greater by 50,0001. than it had been on some former years, awl that the salaries of persons employed in iliat department had beett doubled, and even trebled ! fie thought, that when the value of money had increased in the proportion of 2,5 per cent. that we should begin to return to a srate somewhat commensurate with• what it formerly was. fie hoped that brfore the .House granted so hey on this account, it would cause inquiry to he made into the sna-plus and extray . agaot rate of salaries. Mr. R. IVArci said, that the present time was trot ails trt~~c p roper for 'going:lnto such questions as Atte (.4entlemail suggested. When the Ordnance Estimates came to be laid before the _HAW! in. (41.11e...(!etA414t , all ques.tiotts of Fliae mature mighthe discussed at large. lie would only-Alm, hlutaelf at present to make one observation, which wits, that the sopt..rantmation list alone consented as much at present as the whole Ordnance Cost - in 1792, prior to the French war. • • The Vote was then agreed to.—The [louse having resumed, Mr. CALC RAFT took occasion to ask the Nobl e Lout (Castlereagh) 'Whether his Majesty's Aii• nisters would hive any objection to produce the answer which was sent to the letter which ap peased alma% the Papers laid before the Floose at the commencement of the Session, adds essed to Lord Sidmouth, by the Alanchester Magistrates, btaiing date, Ist July Lord CASTLE R BAG H replied, that he should be able to givea definitive answer to his question to-morrow. At present be knew nothing at all about the matter. Lo'rd l'AilaccsroN moved the Order of the Day for receivio.4. the Report of the Cointnittee of Supply, which was accordingly broug h t up. Air. GagNyPt.t. /15ke , i a question of the NOhle Lord (Pdlsnersioo) tel Aye to the . amount of the charge for the expencei of the Royal Military Coli'e e, an d wis'e'd to :k now, whether, as rite outulser of Cide!i had been reduced, the cost of ESt HELM( would not b e who redi,eed. Lord I'AtAIRIOTow replied, that - the El:injAces 10c the year 1820 were not yet completed, but he believed he was tolerably accarate when he stated that there would be a reduction of 2,8001, in the Cloltge Co- the Junior Department. Atr. flustx observed, that, by the Returns which brid been laid on the table, i: appeared that be Military College shout(' supply the Army cr iris vilicets at the rate of 100 for each year ; but the lacr waf, that, during the last three years, only 76 ',Rd been supplier! from that Eta bilsbnaent. 'ftie couseriotace of ;his was, that instead of the eicpencet being, fur the whole 3 3001, as bad been entered on the Journals of the HUlthe, i( turned out that every one of thos.- , offi- Ccrti who had joined the Army had cost 1,0351. to the county. PALK RSTON declined entering into a dis ctissiori 4,t this nature at the present time ; but be woldd undertake to say, that the Hon. Gentle mart's statements were incorrect, and when lie carne to discuss the details of the Establishment a t a tiit ure period, he vas sure he would be able to show them tt, be so. Mr. flume said, that he had drawn his state- Intuit; frt)tu the reports of the Eitablishment, and he would plunge himself to sitew that he was tC( i. Tile ft-port of the Committee was then agrted NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTI ES BILL. The Order of the Day for a Committee of the House on the Newspaper Stamp Bill was read, and Auer a short conversvion between Lord CAS.. TLERAAGH and Mr. BitOUGHAIg, which passed across tire table, Mr. MAGnoNALo rose and said, that with re spect to those Bills—for he would class the Bill at_prescut before the House and. the Libel Bill loget h,4—h e did not think the same objection applied, which bad been urged against many of the former measurts of the Noble Lord opposite, viz. : that it was ohintelligible; they appeared to him but too intelligible ; they appeared to him hut too ohvions to be most decided stabs at the rights and privileges of Englishmen. The only ground on which their adoption was supportel, was that the existing laws were insufficient for the neces sities of the times. That those laws which iu times of civil discord and rebellion had been found sufficient to carry the Country and the Constitution safe and uoimpaired through ail the datigers which threatened (bent— that had been adequate to carry us through that awful period of political agitation which 114( been marked by a great revolittion in a neiglo bonging country, were, in times of Katmai; peace, pronounced by Ministers to he inefficient— they should say inefficient in thetr hands to put down irreligion and sedition ! It seemed, that at the close of 25 years of warfare, in the course al which the people of the country had shown a per severance under their di asters unprecedented in history, and which had contributed to bring to 3 termination the efforti of their great enemy, these people were to be told ritry were on fitted to enjoy liberty in the same manner and to the same extent as their forefathers had done. They were to he told that such an in tensity of light had bean thrown in upon them as required they would give op some of the liherties in exchange for it_ Would not the people of this country loath those victories which had heicio fore been their glory, if this WHS the pi ice ehry were to pay for them ? Will not, said the lion. Gentleman, that extraordinary mail, whom your aggressions first raised from obscurity, have triumphed in his defeats ? The victory of Water loo, great and glorious as he thought it, would not, in his opinion, suffice for the loss ttf one atom of our liberty. What was it that had sus tained the nation during the arduous struggle for the last 25 years, hot the press ? It was the press that had represented, some“ bat grossly perhaps, the horrots of a military despotism heing esta- Wished iu this country; and that had upheld, in such styli .colours, the blessinv exclusively en-. joyed under the Constitution or England. But it was this press which it was now proposed to shackle. Lie certainly did • think that something might he urged in beltalt . of the !Sill at present befor e the House ; but lie must express his belief that it was the first time it had been attempted to impose the duty of a stamp with any other view than that of • increasing the Revenue. ‘Vizat were the ohiects of this 11.11 ? First, it was to compress publications within a certain range— to shackle it with recogoizances from the par ties themselves, and sureties from their friends ; secondly, to add the punishment of ba nishment to time second offeece, of a blas phemous or sedilions libel. Now he meant to say, tl,st the first proposition was a' gross violation of the Liberty of the Press: Surety bad never ye: been demanded but when an individual bad offended the law, or hail shown himself on the road to do so by some overt ac'. Bitt to demand security merely on the liresuniption that a malt would offend th e br ay, he would repeat, was a most monstrous proposition—such proposition as proceeded from some ultra Tory, who was satis fied to seek his definition of liberty it, the Justi nian Code. Under the present vague definition of libel. would any Gentlrtnan in that House, he would ask, be ready to become responsible for atioater engaged in the daily occupation of the political press ? and this, when extended to a class of men with whom the loss of their sureties would be the total loss of fortune, would go much far ther in its operation. The consequence of this was, to throw the whole weight of recognizences on authors ; wtriclt , when considered, would be found to be of the gceetest importance to the Constitution.. No than would be able to il4ibliSh his . sentiments on the transactions of his own day, unless he be able to lock up 12001.-6001. for himself, and 600/, for his publisher. He, would not believe th tt a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning), who sat on the right hand of the Noble Lord who had introduced the Bill, and whose literary labours were so well known, had given - his -assent to that proposition, until he should hear him assert it himself. He would vetstatre to say that of all the species of Censorship that had ever been devised, the tnost contemptible was thot of money 1 This Bill said to a humble man of genius, 'lsere you 12,001. ? If not you may go about your business ! To the rich it says—Go you and enlighten sae ! Pass this Bill, and the humble member of the rejisiblic of letters will exist no longer ! We shall have a baneful aristocratical Sate indeed. lie would be glad to ask the Noble Lord, if Dr. Johnscm„ or any whet- of Those eminent essayists or sa irises of recent date, who Were of the class of hand. to. month Aurhors could have gone to press if the present Bill had been in existence ? He objected to the puoisloneor of banisloneut, because he thought it the most unequal of all punishuienta.— To t h e man who had no ties in :his country it would be no punishment ; but to the Man who had such ties it wound be worse than death. If the off, nee hall), ned to be one of a domestic na ture, the offender would be well recei ed on the Continent ; but if it should be one in is ii ch all the Powers of the Continent would make common cause with the Govern ment of this Country, the unfortun ate vi c ti m would be chaced tronm.territory to territory in a most snotty Mlle manner. He equally strongly objected to that provision of the Bill which gave to Judges the power of inflicting unlimited im prisonment. If punishmetits were to be super added in this manner, it would be well to con sider the effect such a system would have on the minds of Jurymen. Would they not be taught to take into their consideration the over -severity of the law, in subjecting criminals to its =visita tion by their decisitere? Ile implored the House to consider without delay, what :he Press was,, with all its faults—to remember what it had heretoforet done. He didahitsk tthat the lowest and most grovelling portion of time Press .bad degraded it self; iHtt he thought at the same time there was a natural remedy for it, and until that temedy had been applied, and its result known, no new measures of restriction on it should be laid before the House. But it was on behalf of the respectable part of the Press that he most espe cially called upon them to reflect. it was that he asked of them to cherish with the most scru pulous and religious care. He begged pardon of the House for leaving detained them so long, when such important discussions were pending fur their deliberation.--(Hear, hear !) Mr. DICKENSON denied that the Law of Libel was of that vague nature asserted by the Hon. Gentleman, When Gentlemen came to consider, they would find that the "mature of seditious sad blasphemous libel had its beginning in inveterate malice against the object of its rancour. With regard to the punishment of 'banishment, of which the Hon. Geotleneretr trail s'afir - so much, it would be found to be in the spirit of the old Constitution of time countly. And it was a punishment of that nature that it was in the fmcitver of the Legislature to soften as to duration. Bishop Atterbury and Lord Clarendon had both had the term •of their banishment shortened. According to-Sir Matthew Hale, time whole history of our Constitution wits but a history of the changes which times and cir cumetances had rendered necessary. 11e regarded the present Bill not as an infringeurent of the just rights and liberties of the subject, but as a measure necessarily opposed to the romarchy and tehelhon that threatened to overwhelm the coun try, and be trusted that that House would set an example of firmness, by giving the peaceable and well disposed thst protection which they had a right to require. • Mr. Serjeant UNSLOW expressed hi,s concur rence in every word which had tidier) from time Honourable Meaiber who had just down.. He had heard his Hon. Fciend (Mr. Macdonald) with that satisfaction which his great elouluence was so well Calculated to produce, but. either himself or his Iforiourable Friend must be considerably tuistahen in the enactments of the Bill.. Since he heard him, he (Mr. Serieatit Onslow) had again looked kJ the provisions of it, and in oPpo- Sitio!) to the assumption of his Li on op able Friend, he thd not see one word, which, in them, applied to the author. It was against printers and publishers by profession that its enactuttnts were directed. 'The mischief against which it sought to provide, arose from the ec s of obscure rinttrs and publishers, who, urged on v by hers,- were cateless inlprisoninent, and be- Mg ini desperate eireimistances, gave their itaines for t:ie purpose of getting a livelihood,-, These were the desciiptiou of persons com prehended within the Bill, anti not authors. The other Bill relative to the press .was so connected in principle the preitot that i.r wax almost impossible in discussion to separate tbe ui d : His Honour a bl e F r i en d (Mr. Mecdoneld) had ‘ o veiled to the case of ?Jr. Hone, and dre 4 v, i , illustration from th a t tr i a l to prove the 1180' 1 ; of the incre ase d p ena l ty out a secon d conv icti° o ‘Vith respect to th a t tr i a l, h e never wou ld, the decision of a British Jury, make any in vi ts oils comment ;—(Hear, hear !)—but he mog s allowed to say, that the difficulties to a verdict of guilty against blasphemous: libels were increAst o The propos e d Bill did not , h owever , a pplY b , triels progressively going on, but to libels P i p Hefted subsequently to the first convictioto was for the purpose of suppressing the publicetioes of those who, in defiance of the Is s jl were inveter a tely d e t erm i ne d on t h e coe ti n itso Of the offence, that the penalty of banishment bi t introduced. The principle of such a peuisho e bi u was not new as had been argued ; it was to found in the ancicut practice of the abjeratioa . ' the ;calm. There were many offences to whit ) transportai ion was now affixed, and to which , nishmeat as a milder punishment would, ill 1) 1 judgment, he beneficially applied. Banishow,„ inflieted no stain on the connexions—it did 0 send a man to the other extremity of the globc‘ t ; pass his lif e , not i n d ee d as a s l ave, but deprif certainly of all tree agency. In all legislative 4' ll liberations, the question turned upon the toter° lion of the greater or the lesser evil; and it 0 : 4 better that some i n di v id ua l s s h ou ld be prevell 4 from the prosecution of an employment, than t ll4 the country should continue longer exposed tD the deliberate attempts made for the last avg. years to poison, by the most flagitious libels, t I majority of the people. Thes e a tte m pt s h __ 4 ad a' succeeded, still they were not inefficient to a.cco taro extent, and great mischief was the result. Mr. M`DONALD explained. Mr. GRAHAM, thought no man could mare f t' Bret the excesses that bad taken piece than ' l4 ‘ did—though no man could more detest the bill' ',heinous publications which hail issued frosts tli S press—still thought it desirable that the 1 - 10 41 , should pause before they passed the Measure 450 before them, which in his opioion would eats' i tielly alter the law of the land, and shake one° the great safeguards of the Constitutiou. 1 34 flagrant abuse of a might was always the first cool of tyranny in rulers. They were therefore lII' S worst friends of freedom who stimulated the f 4l ple to insubordination, and were, in fact, the woo f enemies of those whose cause they affecteel espouse, who encouraged .the diseetuitiation blasphemous and seditious writings, and eve* doubtless, only aninieted by a wish to rise throwi ll bloodshed, and over the ruins of the coulee/ 11 , absolute power. It was, however, the duty that House riot to be led away, by the panic the moment even to repress such evils,. l7 / adopting measures so coer:ive s-s to he fey to that liberty which bad long been the ieto 4 Englishmen.raf Having salt! thus noech on' general principles, be would now state f)- 3 " particular objections to the Bill. it was :4$ necessary for him to -declaim in favour of 10 Liberty of the Press as the palladium oloti rights--the best protection for the liberty o f elso subject, arid a power of strength opposed ro 51iIi attempts to govern this country by a MMus/ force. It would not be well to hold such lerng4oo set r the means of a fortress at the moment 400 the enemy was before it, and likely to .carry •ta strong hold. Such at present be thought th case of the Liberty of the Press, which, in 1 10 judgment, would be sebverted if the present tam sure was carried. At present, though every 0:3 3 ° might publish what be pleased, yet be was liabie to he called to answer for such publication. andib l Juries were th en to j u d ge out on l y o f the act Q # the Defendant, but of the intention with whiCl i such act had been committed. With lit s law as it Lad hitherto stood, and with a' S powers, recently given, he thought the Misti" stern were already armed with the means of le pressing every abuse. But the Government eve° not of this opinion, and they now called .6 14 for the power of inflicting additional punish's - 0 5 alter conviction, and then they required an addi' aortal stamp ditty to attach on every small publi' cation. On the first point he would remark, ILO this Bill was not likely to answer the purpose O f which it was to be brought in.. The full penalty already euthorised by law was ne ver intlicee,d e so' therefore to enact severer punishments wouldooif be to increase the difficulty of .procuring a tow viction. Though an Hon. Gentleman (the Mica ) " ber for Somersetshire) had spoken of. hanieblisol as being a common punishment in the good 0 times of the Constitution, which good tisoes I 1 found in the times of the Stuarts, he (Mr. ay ham) would still contend that banishment was' punishment, unknown to the law of England. Scotland he believed it haul once been known, Or certainly, at one unhappy period, it had be° known to Ireland, hut never, if he mistook -N ta the law of England. To this ponishuseue objected, on account of its unequal pressure cola different individuals. To the rich mail it to s milder, to the poor man a severer Punishineirt transportation. A poor man transported ,sas few out and maintained at the public expellee. stripped of all and banished, and left penoylees.t s a foreign shore, wh at cou ld h e d o b ut libel 11 " country to . get bread, or die to :disgrace it, fry want lie disapproved of dee right to be .giO to search the prenii-SeS of a person convicted of s ~, He would nei t h er consent t h at t h e s tibiw should be exposed to a search by night for ail nor by day for newsp a p ers or squ ib s . He w o not notch obje c t t o th e p r i nc i p l e o f i m p o siag A stamp dory on c h ea p p u bli cat i ons , b ut h e te r's" considerable difficulties would be found in the 10/ of reducing it to practice ; and under the nefieY 6 ' tern he fealed th a t a p oor man wou ld fi n d an 00 1 )' stacle opposed to the publication of his sentiments on many topics that were most intercstin4 the all men. The present 1301 w as ca ll e d for on "; plea of necessity, but while the existing laws w e ii 110 t acted upon t o th e i r f u ll est extent , t his Cou trot 'fairly be urged. In 1818, no prosecutions 1/ I k ' f ,' been itistili t ted by t h e A ttorney -G ene ral. 1619 several had been commenced, and the ° fending individual had been convicted, an d I C : verely punished. H e did not impute such "" c ; sign to Minist ers , b ut some parts of their eon du s would almost want alit a suspicion that the ibu r , e had been suffeted to exist and t o increase; to of der to bring Into general disrepute the Ljberti no pi, lb, LU et) bli I ar i , r ill) TO O lb, i poli (t t i i 'err l tld Itlit Fl Ltt 11 0 ,, fif k'~~ic frit t at trii tl idt lift b fit fit 41 e 0111) Otit . _ It Pti io t 'q)e Pim, Pt 14 ' 1,/ No ce Fi g t( t