The Sun. — London, England, 1816-05-28 00:00:00

agree to the proposition or the Dalin kiwur....y, glancing a loan of three million& on the condition , that they might extend their capital. Mr. VREi' FITZG.gRALI3 shOuld not trespas4 long on the patience of- the House, as he had, on It former occasion, entered at large into the finances off Ireland. He should confine himself To a statement of the Supplies` and Ways and Means for the. present year and in doing so it would be necessary for him .to advert to thOse principles which he- proposed in his resolittiona on *preceding evening. -The treasures which he had then proposed had not, it was true, received the sanction of .Parliament, but the view Which that House had been disposed to take of she state of the finances of Ireland would, he Loped, be a sufficient exeuse for him in not pro posing any new taxes in aid of the supply of the year. The quota which Ireland was to furnish to the general contribution, was estimated at 3;115,675/. English currency, as had been stated by his Right non. Friend, (Mr. Vansittart)' which amountea in Irish currency to 3,407,7941. The sum necessary to pity the interest and 'Sinking Fund on the present debt, amounted to 6,526,730 l making,altogether as the whole of the Supply, 10,234,5241.—T0 meet this charge, he should first athert to the surplus of the Consolidated FUnd ; the halanct , in the Exchequer on the sth January last, was 1,448,0861. and there remained of the loan of last year, .st sum of 2,841,1941., making altogether 4,289,2801. But it would he neces sary to"deduct Iron, that the arrears which was due of the Contribution of last year, they amount ed,to 3,187,4701. The Treasury Bills which still remained ontstandiing .were 28,8761.,, and there remained to be paid for inland navigation, and for t he expellees of the office for Public Records, 81,3631: These different sums made together .3,297,7101.'which, if deducted front the sum tie bad before' mentioned of 4,289,2801. would leave a balance of '991,5701. These sums the Com mittee would observe were stated in Irish cur rency. • The 'revenue of 'lreland he conceived himself only warranted' in estimating at six Mil— lions.--The next sum which he should mention, teas the proportion which Ireland was entitled to as her share of . the profits of the' lotteries, viz. 100,0001. The next was the re-payment of the 1: . _ sums paid by Jreland for N3vAl aod Military ser vices; 'it amounted to i 11,9001. His Right Hon. Friend had thought the loan on the Treasury; for utile!) an Act had already pas. , ed 184,6661. and a furil►er issue cif Treasjiry . Bills, amounting to 12,000,0001. would be- necessary.' These several slims would make the whole of the Ways and Means 10,245,1961.• to cover the supply which he had befOrt stated at 10,234,524/. ak redttc;. tiou, the Committee , would be aware, had taken place in the revenue of Ireland, in con sequence of .the taking off a' part of the Malt Ditty, corrrspondiog with the repeal of the late War Doty is Great Britain upon that article, a measure the advantaO of %loch would, he was *Sure, be fr k quite as strongly in Ireland. as they' were in this country. He lout al ways felt A great' septignaoce to the increase of toe Itlalt Duty, nut he had in tact only a choice of This deditetitin front .the revenue, including the t e : payiueut of duty on the stock in the iio:,s'kssioo of the maltsters and distiller , . would; Le was very lllllar atraiti, amount to 200,000L — There were so.oe of hcr small ltities repealed, that would, ill • the above snake a total- of 350,0001: The net payment into the Exchequer. Litt year anitniW etl t0'5,845,.8451.; should not he - accused.of estimating the revenue too high.. He was rather afraid he should he liable to. the charge of.taking it too high at 6,000,000 L • He' trusted, however, that he should ultiutatelY be justified in estimating the revenue' at that stun, because he anticipated an increase of above half a Million, frotri the improved mode of collecting the revenue which had taken place, and for whichthe heads of the different depart ments were emitted to the greatest praise.—(Hear, bear 11—Ntithing,he was s u re, could tend More powerfully to stimulate the exertions of the dif ferent Boards, than , to impress upon their minds that Parliament looked to them, to prevent try their exertions the Oecessityof fresh taxation,and he was. sure that he did not reckon upon those exertions in vain.. It 'was essential, always to hear it) mind, particularly in Ireland, that it was more important to collect the old taxes well, ,than to delude the public by suggest iog new and'oppressive burthenS, Ile wished it, however, not to be supposed that lie formed his estimate of the revenue upon a vague expectation of its produce. The assessment of t Ire inland taxes had been formed upon a moreeorrect system, and uti branch of the Irish revenue had been more impfuved. yrom these ditties he aut icipated in the present year a considerable increase,Withoet adverting to the distilleries, which he intentionally avoided tiow, to being a subject in dispte, and as a more Conbrrnient time would occur for discussing it. The Committee must be aware that •if : the practice of illicit distillation could be materially checked '(lie Was shit sanguine enough to suppose it could be immediately suppressed), the Reve-, nue of Excise would form the principal source of the Irish contribution. He - trusted also, that the internal difficulties of Ireland would not press so heavily as they did last year, a year of sudden anti uttexatepled distress. The cause of that distress wasteasily to he found, in the diminished consumption of SgIllt• of I Ile most productive arti cles, not only-ni the Excise, but its the Cestoms. llChoped, however, that the horizon was bright ening, and that he•sitould be found not too sitn genie in estimating the revenue at 6,000,00 W. lie had the satisfaCtion . of stating, that the pro duce. of the revoitte for the quarter ending the sth of April, considerably exceeded the amount of the corresponding quarter last year. He had. omitted to mention 'the stamps, which_ he ought lint to have done, as the increase in that branch sif the revenue had been considerable. r With re spect to Treasury Bills, stwo Acts had alre ady. passed, authorizing different issue's, one wa s to supply 2,470,0001.'in Bills, payable this year, anti the‘charge for which was included' in. the annual charge of the Irish Debt ; indeed, that sure made almOst the whole of ti n ' unfuirded debt of Ireland. 11 was - not necessary for bins now to make any further prov ision fur that issue.' By the other Act there was a grant of 1;700,0001. and shoukl, • bt'fnre lie b at down, propose a-resointion for 1129°A91 nking alto ether 3,041 j6Ol. with the Sinking Fund of one per cent. \could create a charge of 182,5001. a-year. IVlmen it WAS recollected, that no encroachment had been made on time Sinking Fund in Ireland, and also the re lative proportions of the .two Sim:king Funds to the respective debts of the two countries, be trust ed that time Committee would approve of the pro position which he was about to make of provid ing forthe above charge, by cancelling a certain portion of the stock now standing in the names of the Commissioners 'for the reduction of the Na tional Debt in Ireland. A similar principle . had been acted upon in England. If this proposition should meet whir the concurrence of the Com mittee, he should . enter more into details on a future day. The amount of the capital redeemed in Ireland was— .. L. 1,852,072 In 5 per Cent. In 4 per Cent. 594,500 5,745,958 In 31 per Cent Making together 7,892,530 • —He shourd..propose to cancel the•whole of the live per cent. and of the 4 per cent. Stock, and portion of 34 per cent. amounting' to 2,231,9141. the dividend - upon which amounted to 182.5001. which would - cover the expenee of the interest and Sinking Fund of the Loan of the present year. It would be proper that this should be made applicable to the same charge, whenever the stock created became a part of the fundeil debt. He begged leave to obSeive, that the ca pital thus cancelled was much less than that which existed in Ireland, when the Sinking Fund was firlt rstahlished there. At •that period 4797) the debt in Ireland was 5;525,5001. The amount of the Sinki.,g Fund which would remain would he 736,4301. which would be mote than sufficient for they f irbt it had to act upon. Ile had caus ed calculations to be made of the proportion which the Irish Bliking Fund would bear to the debt of Ireland 'after making this• dedoc tion. lie had, on a former night, ventured to promise, t had when• the consolidation of the Ex 7 chequers took place, Ireland would bring a Siok ing Fond, hearihg a larger proportion to her debt than the Sinking. Fund oi•Great Lirl ain would do . _ to J►er's : he had stated, that it would remain as I to 54, and he was more than borne out by the calculations which had been made. - He hoped that he should meet with the conciirrenee.of 'lament in the proposition which he should make; indeed he saw no alternative which -could he • adopted. The Committee would gee how small a Proportion it bore to the demands which EnglatO had made upon her Sinking Fund during the last dime years. Every 'effort had been made by Ire tneet .the exigencies of the public service, and she•now applied to this source only because all other means of taxation were exhausted. If Ln A lettul had cancelled 250,000,0001. of her debt, she. had purchased a right to do so by her great exertions, and he trusted that it would be admit ted I hat the financial efforts he had made afforded a - proof that he was not disposed. to have recourse to it unheeessarily.inireland. He would not oc cupy more of the time Of the House; many of the topics .had already .undergone ample discussion ; moue opportunities for discussing them, it ne cessary, would occur .during the progress of the Bills for consolidating the Exchequers of the two countries. Mr. PoNLONBY did not rise to follow the state mentS of the two Right! Hon Gentlemen, or to consider the melancholi state of the revenue of the country. These subjects would be more hilly discussed' totnotiow, when the Motion of an lion. Friend of his would be brought forward:, Ne wished only to cocgratidate the Ci4ncellor of the Exchequer . on what had happened, that the House, :in. putting an end to the Property Tax, had not brought 'npon me country all the evils which he had . anticipated, and that the Right Hon. dentlemrin bad been able to raise a Wu' equal to the produce of that impost, in a way which he himself 'Stated must be most satistac.; tory• to•the House, and most lightly felt by . the country It was certainly au object of great con gratulation, that by wimofly di-regardi ng the me naces and pred•ctions of the Right Hon. Gentle., man, the House should have - procured his Own . testimony in favour of the conduct which it 'had adopted. It was atiothetsdhject of congrattitt- , tioa too, that they (the Opposition) who had been accused of shaking the credit of the Bank of England, should stow find that company able to advance nine millions to the public service, to add nearly three Millions to their own capital, and thus to aogynctit it, credit, and, gi v e greater security to the noblie than before. This was a proof of the solidit y4it the resonrces.ot the cowl try when well -managed; and that the Bank of ghgland , instead 'of being shaken' by the pretend ad attacks made upon it, increased in credit and prosperity, These facts had plunged him into so agreeable a state mil mind, that he could not refrain from offering his congratulations to the House., Lord A. HAMILTON called the attention of the House to the new arrangement proposed with the Bank. That Company had agreed to lend three millions at three Per cent. and the Government, on the other hand, had agreed to recommend to ParliaMent to allow the Bank of England to in crease its capital by 2,900,0001. Ile wished to knoW whether, in case the House should admit one part ot the bargain and reject the other, the Right Honourable Gentleman would accept or obtain hk'three millions for the service, of the year 1 he did not believe it. The House were, therefore, not called to vote unshackled on this matter, but were required to acquiesce with an Act which would give an immense augmentation to the Bank. It the Right Hon. Gentleinan had displayed his whole view of the question respect ing his arrangements with the Bank at once, he doubted whether the House would have sanction ed the Bill which hail already passed respecting the advance of six millions. On this augmenta tion of capital, the Baal( would pay themselves 10 per cent., which, with the three allowed by Government, would make 13 per cent.: he was confident that it the negociation bad been pro. petly conducted, the proposed, addition to the capital Would have been accepte d, and the 3 per cent. saved to the country.,. , toklatsk paper being taken in payment of certain debts, even after the restrictions should have expired, he did paid in notes an. ,e Other in Cash. Mr. 13.vatNO•contended, that the - arrangement with the Rank accommodated all parties. It tit forded greater security to - the titililidond it assist tcl the Chas,cetlor• of the Eitchettuer In his Ways anti Means for the year. On considering the financial statement of the [tight liod:Oentlemars, however, he did not perceive ntole eatiSes of sa tisfaction of which lionourable Gentlemen had d th spoken, He saw a pertnanencexpenditure of up wards of 27,000,0001, and a pertnaneut inethde of only 9,700,0001. MI beyond 'that stilt had' been borrowed, and would not outlast the year: -it was even possible, that the amount of the re venue might he considerably diminished by the Failure of some of the hrnocites of which it Was composed. His principal reason for rising was to prevent the H►►u;e from being led away ,by any impression which might be prole by the speech of the'Riglit HMI. Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the financial situ:►tion of the country was so easy, that it could allow mote liberal grants of public money. • The CHAP4CRLLOR of the EXCHECCUIR bdgged, for hit the 50th time, (a kugh), to tell the Right' Hon, Gentleman opposite, that the present was not the permanent Peace kastablishrnent. The situation in which we stood - this year was, that after paying off heavy balan, es we were able to reduce the Public Debt to. the 'extent. of übout 3,000,0001. Considering too what, had been done with respect to the Unfunded Public Debt, and that in one year it bad been reduced by so large a sum.as'2o millions, and that there was so large a surplus as five millions applicable to the service of the year, he did not think but that some cre dit was due to the Treasury. Not that he meant to arrogate the credit of this to hhowlf. But be did find it his duty to say, that tioough the exer tions of the Secretary of the Treasury, the Assist ant.:Seeresary, and of the Commissary in Chief; several millions of the publie.lmoniq Uad been saved. Mr: TtERNEY.---The Right Hon. Gentlernan opposite said, that for the tifrieth time he stated that the present was not the permanent Peace Establishment ; but it was now for about the 50th time that he had to ask the . Right Hen. Gentlemen what was the permanent Peace Eva hlishment.—(A latoth.)—Would the Right Hon. Gentleman say, woett,er it was to he one that would (list 24,000,001. or 23,00(f ,0001. or 22,000,0001. ? He would he meat obliged by au answer to this. But this he was sere of, that it was not intended to he below 22.000,0001. therefore, the observation of his Honodrable Priem! (Mr. Baring) was most important. How ever, the Chancellor of the Exchequer came for ward to the House; and.heeause it Appeared from his statement, that he had been more happy and mere fortunate in his arrangements than ever a Chancellor of the Exchequer was before, main tained that because we had gut well through this year, it was an infallible consequence t hat we must get well through the next year. —Yet, notwithstanding all the stntements and arguments ot the Chancellor ot the Exchetpser ; although he had patched up the bast exposition that he could make, by scraping together all the odds and ends within hiv reach—(a laugh) be '(Mr. T.) did not hesitate to say, that the pro. apect of the country was most frighttel ) anti that its state was every thing rather than prosperous. The Right lion. Gentlemen knew very well that it was impossible to take the amount ot the Con solidated Fund at what be had stated it ; and yet be bad argued very cautiously about it', by saying that the amount of its future produce was a mat ter of opinion ; and although he had not ventured to say that it was , probable it would rise, yet be had taken it at 3,000,0001. Now, the House must allow that Such statements were quite inad missible. Ai to The produce of the taxes too, for the present year, there was a tallacy, as the State ;ment for 1816 included the produce of the mass of taxes imposed in 1815. 'But - for 'the purpose Of a fair comparison between the.produce Of the two last years, it was necessary to deduct the amount of the proiluce of the two last years, it was necessary to deduct the Antonia of the produce of the new taxes. With This view he (Mr ,T.) had meta for the production of papers which would have shewn the real amount of the taxes imposed last year, but he had only succeeded gettinlethe parrs rtlats ink to the Excise up to April 1816. The result of this paper wits as tollows he auMent of the produce of the Excise for 1816, was 37;483,0001. and up to the Mlle date in 1815, it had been 39,439,0001. ; and of the amount of that for 1816, no less a suns than. 900,0001. produced by the new ,taxes of last ye ar , which included only the Excise up to the 'April quarter, in thi! current year. The produce of the new . Staino Duties, up to April this year, he had not gm, as the account presented to the lrionte oily brought the statement up to January. Then as to the sinkiug Fund, lie could prove, that so far from the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman being founded on fact, there was an actual falling oil in that Fund of 167,0004 He wotdd then take the War Taxes. The amount of the produce of the Customs and Excise, fur the year ending sth April, 1815, was 9,930,0001.; and up to the same slate, in 1816, 9,481,0001.; and, upon the whole comparing produce of the twoiyears, there was, in fact, a deficiency of the revenue for 1816, below that of 1815, of 638,0001. Yet, with all these facts, the Right Hots. Gentleman came down to going,tsoi n h apy e o tioi i iset o itic u ijool s iint e et:n a titvo i r t aay i a l s Ist e ltit i; tal, t ileti l te e eo tt mi tß y pe o ili:g u ivtih r ao e tsn d H on entire l yooto not possible eaorkeyenta fal l ac i ous . t sensibletlflourishnorunlbt In possible for the produce ot the revenue to keep up. But what could be thought when taxes were kept up, -which it haul - never been calculated would., be imposed during peace ii It was a comPle'tedeltision to say that there would be a surplus of 3,000,0001. in the ensuing year —nay, be was convinced the Right Hon. Gentleman thought sn too. To be sure, -it served the purpose of the Right Han.' Gentleman to say so, because it might enahle him to Obtain his loan from the Bank at a more reasonable rate*, and no doubt he would calculate on, that loan to enable him to make up the deficiency„ instead of the surplus of which he talked. In the Excise there seas, as he had shewn, a great falling off, 49( 1 this was the most alarming branch in which any was a diminution in dom , site expenditure I urougn 7 out the kingtiont. .The truth was, the late war had been attended with some very extraordinary-eir comstonces for during its continuance, it w front yeAr to year a subject not only of satisfac tion hut of triumph, how the revenue kept -up. But the order of things rats" now com pletely reversed, and the revenue in tunic! of Peace was falling off. And yet, with -all this, the ChattCellor of the Exchequer came down to the House, and called out to them to see how they were getting on—that be had borrowed thil 'and tbat. 7 =qindeed it was not easy to sny what be bad borrowed, because there were such hocus pocus work between the Right Hen. Gent. ami the Bank, as few but themselves could entiprehen(l); fie told them not to be cast down—=that next yesr we would get rid . of no less a sum than 3,000,6001. of the National Debt. Now, he would ask, whe ther It was novati alarming thing, that In time of' peace there was no prospect that the pressure of war should he diniinished ?—(FICar, hear !)L—But what he thought chiefly to he blamed on this sub ject, was the negligence of the House of Corn. mons in not having turned it attention to the real financial situation of the country. As for the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, he only thoutrAit of hove' to serve over the difficulty of the day But this was by no means enough. The Right Holi.-Geh lleman came down t(i. till the House thAt there was a surplus of 5,000;0001. unexpeteled of the Supplies ot last year, mid asked if ever the Hintio had seen such a thing. Now, he would desire the - House to recollect the amount of the grants of , last (he, for his own part did not quarrel Nvith the : amount of them, because he always thought it better to look the situation Of the country so fair*, ly in the face, as to ; ask,at once all that world be required)—He would Ask them*. to remember the 'amount of theie grants, and then to say what other ParliaMent had ever granted such a laseeil Sins. ply ? What he wished to knots' was, what had heeeilone with these graws. (ilear, he,ar!) '''''The Chancellor of the Excheine:r adMitted tha; lie had got large supplies last year, and told them they ought to thank God' for getting so much of it back again—(A laugh)—but he would say, that this wet no answer to the question ; .Itow had the rest been disposed of ? ' As-tor the advence by the Bank, withnnt meaning to make any Mash obser vation nu the 'subject, lie thought that it hat been obtained as a purchase of the continuance of the, Bank Restricticite Act. Th. , . Right Hon. Gentle -1 man borrowed! the 9,000,000L0n theemolitibrt that it was to be repaid in two years. Now the Right Hots. Gentleman knew very v,vell, that' in two years he could not - pay it, thelefore the Bank bad hint thus completely under their thumb. Thus he was to be at the mercy of the Bank again, at the end of -these two years, end, we knew very Well what the mercy of the Bank was--;that it was only the difference between 5 per cent. and 3' per . cent.— (A. laugh.)—ln short, such Was our titian cial situation, that the duty of the House was to . appoint a Select Committee to make such arrange+ ments as would bring the revenue of the country to meet its expenditure. The Cifestesetne of the Excited - yen said; it was With reluctence that he again ArespaSsed on ' the time of the Committee., He woeld„ref , r to the , House, to say whether he had ie any degree ex- , pressed despondency at the situation of: the coml. try ) or shetved any disposition to shrink from :the (faculty ot the times. It wits his greatest satisfec tion that under ell the circtcnst ances ot tti e country be had been enabled to Or ct a loan on such terms; than lifter all that had been said, it'illuit be allow- lel that no s.del Objectiond heed made to it.- , , , e (Hear, hefty!) —lt this year ooly three million of the public debt 'conic! he redeemed, the House would jecollect, that it the plan which lie' had first re• ' commended had beeteadoptad, about 12,000,0001, would have been redeemed. - The Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had endeavourul to 'prOve,' that although there was an apparent - in-" crease in the revenue this year, -yet. that . in tact there was a diminution, -because the produce of the taxes imposed during .the•last Sessiou might t o be deducted. That such a d, , duction feu glit.to be made was perfectly - well founded---arced it ' amounted twanout.9oo,oool.;, By deductiog this sum from tale . produce oh last ycar's revenue, it. Would give an apparent excess of the produce of . the preceding year to the unionist of about ' '200,000L But then the Right lion. G eot i e i min forgot to. add the amount of the taxes which had . 'expired timing the last year, which had bean avail. able in the preceding year, and these ainoanted to 830,0001.--e(ENar, hear 1)—So that iii truth the Right Hon. Gentleman after alt was ,conipletelse,. wrong, as instead 'of a diminution Of the produce, of lat year compared with that of the prececfe . keg to the amount of no less theid•6oo,oool. be 000,0001,-4/Iw.. hear !) . Sir 1.1. Parnell, Sir John Newport, and Mr. W. Smith, made some observations relative to this , fxpeoditure of certain sums in Ireland ; which were most it Mist ictorily answered by Mr. V. Fitt'. gerald antl,Mr: l'eeL General 144Titaw assured the Right Hon. Gen tlenem (Mr. Peel) that in the County of Tippe rary ati expellee of 8,3001. might have been sated by suspending the Police Establishment, whit It that County could very yell do without. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would _forgive him when he told him that this police went by the name of the Peelers.—(A laugh.)-41e should like to know what was the use of the Lod Lieu• tenant of Ireland 3--.(A laugh.)—He had nothing to do but to ride out in a'coaelt and six front Dub hn Castle to the Phrtnix Perk . , and this cost 30,0001. a-year.—(A—laugh.) , The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite too had a very large eidery, for which heath! nothing bet trouble the country. (A laugh.). Why , might not Irelintif he gavel neat in the saute way with Scotland, where there We nothing but a Cominau4r.in-chict and, the se- L 4., rate Law Courts / Mr. Peet. explained. The Pollee which the lion. Gen. called Peelett was establishett on the recommendation of 70 Megistrai es, of the 'county of Tipperary.—(llear ) hear, hear I) ~ .. Mr. CnoKett spoke highly In tayore, of tile 'Lawyers employed in the Cu Ow it proseeetioes in Munater, whom he deSeribed as the most 'respect. able persons in their professions - • Mr. V. FITZGERALD replied 'to a question of .)