The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-05 00:00:00

MORNING l-41DITION. difficulty in obtaining a deposit of ten per cent.— (Cheers.) It appeared to him that if there were a difficulty in obtaining a deposit of rive per cent. as a subscriber, he should think he had little chance of ob taining the remaining 95 per cent. This subject had often been before the House. The principle had been considered by two Committees of the House of Commons, who had decided against it, in consequence of those disgraceful gambling trans actions which, under the name of t railway specu lations, had imposed upon the country.—(Hear, hear.) It would, indeed, be with great concern he should ace the House relax their rule, which had had the most satisfactory effect in guesting the progress of schemes which were set up for no bona fide object, but only to in duce inexperienced capitalists to purchase shares and give the advantage of temporary rises in price to the first speculators. The House of Lords had adapted a different principle, and the consequence was that Bills were introduced in that House which subsequently became abandoned, after much loss and inconveni ence to parties who were misled by the projectors. To him it appeared impossible that any parties of character and substance could find any difficulty in obtaining a deposit of so small an amount. But the Hon. Gentleman said that the effect of the restriction was to arrest the progress of railroads in this country, and to send capital abroad to be invested in rail way speculations in foreign countries. Now he (Mr. L.) `thought he found a complete answer to that statement, 'upon examining the notices of private Bills, upon which he found in this Session already 58 notices of plans for new railways. He thought therefore there need be no apprehension that parties who had projects calcu lated to be beneficial to themselves and the public would End any difficulty in making the deposit required by the present regulation —(hear, hear.) AA he should feel very sorry if the House should alter the determi nation to which it came after so much deliberation. Mr. WARBURTON was so far from thinking the existing regulation requiring the deposit of 10 per cent. at all excessive, he was convinced that in all bona fide •hemes no difficulty could be found in conforming to it. Until that was enacted, men of straw came before the public with ephemeral and good for nothing speculations, by which people were induced to invest their savings in projects that could never be attended with the least ad vantage to them or to the public. Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the Committee of the llouse, appointed in 1837, to the effect that the only means of checking delusive schemes was to require that all parties petitioning for a Bill should be required to make a de posit. But that Committee had no intention to specify a particular amount of deposit, and he thought that the subsequent Committee very properly fixed the sum at its present amount. With respect to the Hon. Mein ber's (Mr. IL's) statement that the effect of the regula tion was to reduce the number of railway speculations ; the Hon. Gen:Linen had himself given the answer when he said that the state of the money mirket in the last three years had operated to the discouragement of those schemes.—( Hear.) Yet, no less than sixty-eight Bills had passed since the enactment of the present Standing Order, and 55,000,000/. of capital had been invested in carrying them into effect.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. W.) had had the best opportunities of inquiring into the merits of the case, and he was satisfied that the existing regulation was the best that could be devised.—( Hear.) Mr. BROTHERTON had been a member of the Committee of which his Hon. Friend, the Member for Bridport, ,was the chairman ; and, keowing the number of bubble schemes which were brought forward, he thought the present rule ought nut to be relaxed. He wished to state a fact which he thought of consi derable importance. The Liverpool and Manchester R rilway Company, a year or two ago, obtained an Act for a railway to pass through the borough which he had the hollow. to represent, and they had con trived to introduce a clause leaving it optioual to thv in whether they should complete the railway or not. The consequences were, that parties who had received notice that the railway would pass through their property were completely tied up from disposing of their land in any way—(Cries of " Hear, hear") — and the Company had the sole power of determining whether the property should be requir'ed at any time for the purpose of the railways.—( Hear, hear.) Ile did think that Parliament should take every precau tion for having their works vigilantly and vigorously car ried into eff ct. Mr. O'UONNELL wished to say a few words on the subject. It seemed to him that the regulation, as it stood at present, was, like many others, highly favourable to the rich, and to great capital , sts, and that it went to increase the influence of those who were already possessed of enormous wealth, while it acted injuriously as regarded the smaller capitalist. It had that effect in the country from which he ci.me, where there was but little capital. They felt severely in that country the pressure of the present regulation, and he therefore believed it to be his duty to protest against it. All railways were now a monopoly, and be thought it would be better, in that instance, to relax the rule, as proposed by the lion. Member. Lord HOW 1C l. said that the Hon. and Learned Member who had just sat dozen, instead of corsid ring the regulation as it. now existed as favourable to large capitalists, ought in his opinion to consider it as likely to operate hi en exactly opposite way.—( Hear, hear.) B •fore the regulation had been introduced a great in justice was frequently done to parties having small pro- I perties in counties throueli which it ryas proposed rail ways should p iss. Schemes for the coinmeneem , nt cl rail ways were brought forward, and which, as they were never carried into effect had no other result than to put resi dent landlords to the expense of needless litigation. lie thought it was the interest of small proprietors that a check should be put upon those who entered into decep tive schemes, by insisting rigidly on the rule as it now ex isted. He was persuaded that all gentlemen connected with landed property would do well to pause before they countenanced the resolution of the Hon. Member. He was not hostile to that particular line of railway, in favour of which it was supposed the Honour able Member had made his motion. He was so far from that that he could assure tine Honourable Member, that no one could be more anxious than he was to see a line of railway carried through that county which he himself had the honour to represent. But he felt that wherever a good line could be made out, the regulation they were now discussing would not offer the slightest difficulty in the way of its being carried into effect. On those grounds he would undoubte fly give his opposition to the motion of the Hon. Member.—( Ilear, hear.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that they ought to modify the order as it now existed. In his opinion the deposit of 10 per cent. would be sufficient. He did not think that a large per centage should be required before a Bill was brought into Par liament. That was th hardship of which he com plained, and of which those who were favourable to the line of railway, referred to by the Noble Lord, must bitterly complain. The modification which he (the Attorney-G.:neral) wished for, was that they should require a deposit of 10 per cent. not before the Bill was introduced into the House, but be fore the works were begun. That was the principle which had been acted on in the case of the Edinburgh end Giasgow Railway, and which had been attended with com plete success. It would, he thought, be quite sufficient that they should have a certificate from a public func tionary before a spade was put in the ground. In that case they would be sure to have a bona fide under taking that would sufficiently protect the landed in terest, and which would not at the same time discourage those useful works. Mr. FRESHFIELD could not see the benefit of changing the present law. If the undertakings were Of a bona fide and reasonable character, there was no fear but capital would be employed on them in this country rather than abroad. The Attorney-General said that a 10 per tentage paid before a spade. was put in the ground would offer sufficient protection to the public. lie ( Mr. Freshfield) was persuaded, on the contrary, that such re gulation would tend to encourage imp ro p er speculation. It could only tend to encourage eereing in shares, to the injury of the public. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY expressed his approval of the motion. Mr. HODGSON HIN DE, in reply said, that almost all who had addressed the House were against rescinding the Standing Order. The Noble Lord had said that he considered the Standing Order as most beneficial to the landed interest. Now, he (Mr. Hodgson Hinde) considered, that if there was one Standing Order more injurious to the Landed Interest than another it was this very order requiring a deposit of 10 per cent., for many railroad schemes, after having been brought to a certain degree of maturity, were not brought under the con sideration of Parliament on account of the inability of the parties to make the deposit required ; but these sehemes were not on that account abandoned ; they were merely postponed to another session, and thus these schemes were kept hanging over the heads of the land owners on the proposed line from year to year, in conse quence of this standing order, without the decision;of Par liament. The It'ght lion. Gentleman had said that there were fifty-eight notices for Railway Bills this Session ; now it was not by the numb.:r of notices given that they could judge of the effects of the Standin g Order, but by the number of Bills brought in, and he would venture to assert that not more than half a-dozen Bills would be brought in of all the fifty-eight notices. He felt the sense of the House was against him, but he was desirous of recording his vote, because that, at another time, when the number of railway labourers thrown out of employ, ment would be considerable, the House would be glad to rescind this Order. . . Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it . 4 Majority against thg motion... -- 129 Mr. KELLY presented a petition from the late collector of taxes for the county of So:ucrset, corn. plaining that the Government, in granting him com pensation bad acted against a law and custom, and praying the H o u s e to take his ease into considc.: ation by rrio . nng to u evtaltilittee, Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petit'on from Doter, praying for a total repeal of the Corn-laws. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the Plasterers of Dublin, praying for the repeal of the Union. WEST INDIA MAILS. Mr. FRESHFIELD gave notice that on Thursdiy next he should move for a copy of the Appendix to the Report of the Committee with respect to the West India mails. TEXAS. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he should that day fortnight move a humble Address to her Ma jesty, praying that she would be pleased to direct a copy of any arrangement between Texas and this country to he laid before the House ; and also that it was his in tention on the same day to call the attention of the House to the state of that country. Mr. KELLY gave notice that he should that day fortnight call the attention of the House to the petition of Thomas Weeks. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET moved for cer tain returns relative to railways, which were agreed to. IDOLATRY IN INDIA. Sir R. INGLIS rose to put some questions to Ole Right Hon. President of the Board of Control, relative to the connexion which existed between the East India Company and the idolatrous practices in India. The House was aware that, when he had asked the ques. tion last year, the Right Honourable Gentleman had referred him to certain extracts from a despatch of Lord Auckland, partly public and party private, in which it was stated that the system worked well, and that the objects in view were advancing slowly and steadily. Now, although the Right Hon. Gentleman said he would lay all the docu ments connected with the subject on the table, he had only given extracts from that despatch.—(Cries of " Question.") Ile wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman would lay the whole of that despatch on the table, he having only made extracts from it ? Ni.xc, whether upon any authority, wh, tiler public or private, the Rigi.t Hon. Gentleman could state upon his own respousibdity that the system had worked well in British India or any of its dependencies? The next question which he wished to propose was, whether the Right Hon. Baronet felt himself at liberty to st Ito to the Ilouse if any of the grievances under which British uldiers in India laboured, had been re moved. It he could not state that, as he feared he could not state anything sat'sfactoril) on the subject, whether he had any objection to state that he would take care that those grievances of her Majesty's subjects in India, to which he (Sir R. 11. Inglis) referred, would cease on the Ist of January, or at any other definite period. ,_ Sir J. C. HOB HOUSE said that, with respect to the quotations which he made in July last, ho had no objection to place them before the House. He had said that those documents were partly of a private, and partly of a public, nature. One of the letters which he (Sir J. C. Hohhouse) had received on the sub. j set, was a private letter from Lord Auckland. Before replying to the questions of his Hon. Friend, he world beg to state that he believed that those papers or which he had moved at the close of last Session, would furnish his Hon. Friend with much more ample information than he at present possessed on this most delicate question. These papers were not printed before the close of last Session ; the Order had not been re newed during the present Session ; and consequently they had not been presented to the House. It was his intention that night to move to renew that Order, and in addition to move for the production of other papers which he thought would prove satisfactory to his Honourable Friend. With respect to the further question of his Honourable Friend, whether, he thought that anything had been done respecting the settlement of this unfortunate question, for so he thought he was entitled to call it, he had the satisfac tion of stating that he thought much had been done to wards the settlement of it. Wh;t had been done in the Presidency of Bengal had been, in his opinion, with one exception, entirely satisfactory ; and when he looked to what had been done with regard to the pilgrim tax, and with regard to the Juggernaut tax, he thought that much lied been done. He should also lay before the House despatches from the Government of Bombay to the Government of India, stating th e steps which they had adopted for carrying cut the orders of Lord Auckland, which lie thought would prove satisfactory to his Honourable Friend.—(Hear.) Tnere was one exception, which was, the Presidency of Madras. He would confess to his Hon. Friend he had been disappointed by what had taken place in the Presidency at Medras. When he had last addressed the House on this subject, he had stated that he had received despatches from the Governor-General of India, stating that he was in hopes that measures would be adopted for carrying into effect his orders on this subject in the Presidencies of Bombay and Madras. As he had before stated, those orders had been carried into effect in the Presidency of Bombay. But his Honour able Friend would find in the despatches a state ment that the propositions which had been made by the Governmcnt of Madras to the Government of India, for carrying into effect the orders of the Government of India were unsatisfactory, and that the Government of India, he was happy to state to his Hon. Friend, had issued such orders as would have the effect of pre venting the Government of Madras being any longer behind hand in carrying into effect orders of the Government of India and the desire of the British Parlia ment. It was his duty at. the same time, in defence of his Noble Friend Lord Ephinstone and his Council, to state that he believed whet had been done by them was owing to a misunderstanding of the instructions from the Board of Directors and the Government at borne . But the Government had since given instructions sa distinct that there could be no room nor excuse for further mistake ; and the Governor of Madras would in future act in conformity with the regulations passed for the guidance of the other Presidencies.—( Hear, hear.) He had now answered the questions of the Hon.: Gentleman relating to the three Presidencies. With respect to the other matter put to him, namely, the attendance of the troops at the re ligious service of the Hindoos, he begged to refer the Hon. Gentleman to the despatch of 1833, in which it was most pointedly laid down that the troops were not in any way to be compelled to attend at any festival which was not consonant with the principles of the Christian religion—(Hear)—and that no Mahommelan should be compelled to attend at Hindoo religious ceremonies, and no Hindoo at Alahommedan worship.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had asked him whether that regulation had been carried into effect in India. Now he could only say that he was not aware that it had been violated. He had before him a letter, stating that the troops had attended at a Hindoo festival, and had done honour to the ceremonies under pretence (.f attending as an escort to the Prince. He was not aware that this was the case. He had certainly not made any inquiry, but no complaint had been made to him. He could state, however, that if such a cue were brought under the notice of the Court of Directors they would do everything in their power to prevent its recurrence ; and more than that, if they had reason to believe that their wishes were not attended to, or their orders not properly obeyed, then they would take the earliest opportunity of sending out such instructions as would nut a stop to practices so objectionable. Of course, a great distinction must be taken between the attendance of troops at public processions, and their forming a guard of honour and going into the temples. Ile had inquired whether there had been any additional information lately from India upon the subject, but had ascertained that there was not. He ha: iieve d there was no case in which compulsore attendance . was resorted to, and although '.ne disturbance had .9 token place at Madras hetwe a troop of native infantry and cavalry, lie had not 'oeen able to ascertain its cause.l He should, howeeeer, feel it his duty to make further JUVENILE OFFENDERS. Sir E. WILNIOT begged to ask the Right Hon. the Attorney-General, e hether in the reforms contem plated in the administration of justice, there was any intention on the part of the Government to establish a tribunal for the trial of juvenile offenders, in cues of petty larceny. He had himself been informed of two cases, one of a child for stealing an egg, and another for stealing sixpence, in neither of which could any punishment be inflicted, the children having been already two months in prison. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would strongly support any propositi on of th e Ri g h t H on. Baronet to carry such an object into effect, but as thert; had been considerable division upon the subj ec t, t h e G overnment had given him no instructions to ,prepare 44 measure on the subject. Sir E. WILMOT wished to know whether it i ntended to make the Quarter Session Court s in exist_ e nce effective, because in Birmingham they merely met pro forma, and were unable to transact a n y Y business for want of funds. A ll th e expense at present tell upon the county, and he would be glad if the Government would state whether it was intended ;o make these Courts valid or do away with them altogether. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said Or: question would hare been settled thug since, but they had been ;suiting for the decision of the Judges in the Exchequer Chamber on the subject of the Manchester charter PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Mr. FITZROY KELLY begged to ask whe ther it was the intention of the Government to propose any measure for the further abolition of capital punishment, and if so, whether it would be as extensive as that which he had the honour to in troduce last Session ? Mr. FOX MAULE said that it was the inten tion of her Majesty's Government to bring forward a measure on the subject of the abolition of the punishment of death. He was not, however, pre pared to say that it would be coextensive with the measur e which the Hon. and Learned Member had formerly introduced. The Hon. and Learned Member would soon have an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the measure, as he hoped it would be introduced before the Idpse of another month. Mr. KELLY ths.3l gave uotico that he would, ou Tuesday next, bring forward the motion of which he had given notice for leave to bring in his Bill. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS—(IRELAND;. Lord hIORPETH sail that he confessed he arose on that occasion with some anxiety, both on account of the intrinsic merit of the question itself as well as the special interest which had been more recently attached to it, from its having, in fact, served as a pivot on which the struggles of political parties of late had materially turned, and from its bringing him into something like rivalry with the Noble mover of another Registration Bill on the opposite side of the House in the way in which rive I - y could alone subsist between them—that was between the qualities of their respective measures—certainly not between the proposers. He would therefore beg that the House would follow him on the occasion with indulgence and attention. Whenever the subject had been before them on pre vious occasions, as they had been correctly re minded by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire on a previous evening, it had been allowed upon all hands that great imperfections and abuses attached to the present question of Registration in Ireland, which both admitted and called for remedy. As to the precise extent of those abuses, as to the degree in which any fraud was practised, and as to its comparative extent either in this country or in Scotland, there might be, and he believed there had been diffe rences of opinion ; but still it had been admitted gene rally that great means and facilities far fraud existed in the present system of registration in Ireland, and it had scarcely been denied by any one who had addressed himself to the subject, that occasional in stances of fraud had taken place. The point which had been most frequently adverted to, was a system of certificates, and the facilities afforded there by for fraudulent personation of either dead or ab sent voters, and the retention of persons on the registry, who, after they had once been placed on the list, were left there, without any opportunity for subse• quent correction or revision, during the whole period for which the registry remained in force—that was, under the present Irish reform law, for a period of 8 years. Now those certainly were practices for which no one would stand up, and which every one who had spoken on the subject professed himself anxious to correct.— (Hear.) In any measure, therefore, which her Majesty's Government would bring forward, they would endeavour to put an end to such palpable and obvious abuses as those to which he referred. The unequal and one•sided system of appeal which was confined to an appeal in favour of the franchise, which was limited to the claimant, and denied to the objector, had also formed a subject of general complaint. With respect to the appeal on matters of fact, which, under the Irish Reform Act, were necessarily fully sifted and decided on before a tribunal duly constituted for the purpose, which under the Irish Reform Act—and under the Irish Reform Act alone—were substantiated by thepro duction of titles and other documents, and by viva voce witnesses, none of which things or persons it might be convenient or feasible to bring again together at another time, in another place, orj before another tribunal—with respect to these facts, he did not think it would be fair to the claimant to grant an appeal or a re-hearing on such matters of fact.—( Hear, hear.) But he did think it would be very fair to give the appeal both ways—against the franchise as well as in favour of it, and to the objector as well as to the claimant, on all matters of law, on all points involving the construction of Acts of Parliament, and the legal merits of the case ; provided always, and it was an important proviso, and one on which he had always insisted when he had addressed himself to that part of the subject— provided that, in the first place, they placed the franchise on a clear nod distinctly ascertained basis—( Ministerial cheers)l--not on a basis such as the present, which was disputed, ambiguous, and of doubtful interpretation.— (Renewed cheers.) They should not, in his opinion, leave the entire franchise of the Irish people to a second ordeal before an upper and professional tribunal, where points bad to be adjudicated on by a strict, precise, and technical interprctntion of a doubtful and ambiguous law. He had, therefo re , th us f ar i n di ca t e d t h e l engt h s which he was prepared to go with the Noble Lord opposite. He (Lord Morpeth) was sure it was pleasing to him to travel in his (Lord Stanley's) company as far as he was able. They (the Ministers) were prepared to abolish the use of certificates, and make the register, which might have been formed under due precautions, the test of the right of voting at elections. They were prepared to allow an ap peal both ways, to the objector as well as to the claimant, if Parliament should have first consented to place the franchise on a clear and intelligible footing. With re spect to the new periodical revision, he ( Lord Morpeth) was quite content to take the same course for it as that selected by his Noble Friend—that was, that it occur once every year ; but whilst he (Lord Morpeth) allowed the revision to take place after the interval of one year, he was not prepared to give up a point for which he com bated last year, though without success, which was to deprive the Irish voter of that facility and advantage which he now enjoyed of preferring his claim to register at the quarterly Court of the Assistant Barrister—the or dinary Court of Quarter Sessions. That was a facility which the Irish voter had long enjoyed. It was a Court with which he was familiar, and to which all the habits and customs of his life naturally accustomed him. Ho ( Lord Morpeth) would not be for taking from him those advantages and accommodations which he had for a long time past possessed. When the voter was once placed on the register, he ( Lord Morpeth) proposed that he should be subject to have his title to vote annually celled in question ; that was the periodical revision which he mentioned, and which should constitute the annual in quiry into the original qualification, by virtue of which ttie voter was placed on the register. If nothing occurred to disturb that right—if everything remained the same, he ( Lord Morpeth) contended that the strict searching investigation which the Irish Reform Act prescribed in the first instance was quite sufficient, and he could not make his right to retain his vote subject to any further disturbance ; and he (Lord Morpeth) could not assent to that part of the scheme of the Noble Lord opposite which made the voter, after his title had been clearly decided, liable to have it called in question every succeeding year —( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side of the flouse)— and which would cause what had been settled one year to tie called in question the next year, and so on, to the end of all recorded time. That was not an extreme case which he was supposing—it was one which, in the present condition of circumstances, might very probably and na turally be expected to occur in Ireland; supposing when an Assistant Barrister, who took the more restricted and limited view of the elective franchise, rejected the claimant, en appeal was made to a Judge who took the larger view of the franchise, and the voter was by that Judge placed upon the register, the same man the next year was liable to be compelled to prove his right again before the Assistant Barrister who had made it a point of duty to reject him. So it was with re spect to the second appeal of the Noble Lord. He ( Lord Morpeth) would suppose, in that instance, that the Assist ant Barrister took the more liberal view of the right of vote, he would admit the claimant ; an appeal was lodged to the Judge of Assize, who took a different view of the franchise, and who discarded the voter. Thus it would happen every year. When the voter succeeded in being placed on the register by the Assistant Barrister, he would at every next Assize be liable to be thrust off by the going Judge of Assize. The Noble Lord intimated in his ad dress to the House on Tuesday evening that he was willing to lop off some of the topmast branches of that hydra headed schedule of his respecting the different notices which the claimant to vote should give. Therefore he (Lord Morpeth) supposed that they would not quarrel with reference to that part of the subject. He for his part was content with whatever reform was speci fied as necessary on the subject. He was glad to find that the Noble Lord admitted the propriety of the objector to a voter already on the register stating the nature and cha racter of the objection ; that seemed to him no more than what was perfectly fair and reasonable, and he was glad to understand that they would not have any question of dis pute on that subject. With respect to the Court of Ape peal, he (Lord Morpeth) proposed to retain the same pro vision which had been introduced into the Bill brought into the House by his Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-Ge neral for Ireland, in the Court of 'tile last Session, and which was contemplated the system of English regiss tration proposed b; the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies. cie (Lord Morpeth) assented to the weight of those arguments which were urged against the propriety of making the Judges of the land constitute the new Court of Appeal, as he thought that that would have a tendency, and they had already seen that it had, to contaminate their solemn functions with the imputation of a suspicion of being influenced by party prejudice, It would be the obvi ous tendency of that measure to lower their most important station in public estimation, and he (Lord Morpeth) pro posed in its stead to make the new Appeal Court consist of three barristers of a certain standing, who would hold their sittings in Dublin, and be appointed by the Speaker of the House of Commons. Having thus mentioned the new Court of Appeal, he was naturally brought, in the order of the topics, to the question of the franchise: Now the Noble Lord opposite, in his speech the other night, seemed to intimate that he (Lord Morpetb) was guilty, or that he should be guilty of mixing up the ques tion of the franchise with other parts of the registration code; but so far from admitting that charge, he ( Lord Morpeth) assured him that he always stated to the house. that it was not only expedient at any time, or in any point of view, but was absolutely essential before . they con stiteted a second provisional Court of Appeal, to put the franchise upon a distinct and ascertained basis.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side of the House.) He (Lord Morpeth) did not think that any Hen. Member who had a w t h te o n m de a d rke to d thethe proceedings that \\ hat, ptebraattihoaadinaltrietaisdyquteaskteionnp, place in Irela n d, it i lh r e v e l e ll ia r; ii:te c a o n u d doubt of the expediency of cor i ,gh:nind.gictobneibii,reiriningittetdheto ask,su b j e w e tass. stale Hear, the t hear. ing ) 5 in r o esp,, , ct to the qualifications? With respect to the first place ttie minds of the Judges were divided—th e minds a b n a e rr n i i ;t e e barristers of twerethe peopled e d o — f t o r n ' L leaving n the e judgment sett arid coming iota that House, they found the opinions of the two greet political parties who con stituted that } louse were equally divided ; and if the izt:tioleny paid attention t o t h e speeches in both Houses ira es of Pa I meet, it would be found t h at the Duke of Richmond wa-s quotedthe Nobleas an z oarudthoopriptoysuitpe (Lordonthis g ), and that the Marquis of Lansdowne was of a different opinion from that of Lord Melbourne.—( Hear, hear.) Thus it was seen that the Legislature, the Judges, and the bar, the framers of the law, and its administrators, were equally divided, and confused and perplexed its interpretation.—( Hear, hear.) hear.) ) was a No diversion one could ou forld doubtwhich That might sffsrd a subtle and inter es ti ng d iversion to the expounders thatthe cal result of but it the present st a t e of the law, r a t t i f the law, the people bled.—( Hear, hlar whatever interpretation might be given to th e so l vent tenant test, as it :night for brevity be called, equa ll y in i vUlYed thQ cunditA of testimony and of opinion—( Hoar, THE SUN. LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1841. hear)—some said that it involved fraud and perjury ( Hear, hear, hear.) Ho appealed to any Honour able Member who would take a dispassionate and enlightened view of the question, whether it was not desirable to put an end to such an inconvenient, unseemly, and mischievous state of thingw —( Hear, hear.) It was a matter of comparatively little importance whether they were done in one or in two Bills; but any measure which should beneficially alter the mode of registration in Ire land, and would leave this prime and radical evil un touched, would effect nothing in the way of s o und and s t a t esman like legislation. If doubt and uncertainty were attached to the present state of the franchise, certainly the best remedy would be that which would place it on such a basis that there could be no conflict of opinion.--( Bear, hear.) He was anxious that a basis for the qualification should be selected distinct from the franchise and from all electioneering matters. Further, that the basis should be one that furnished a counteracting check against the intro duction of the operation of any such matter. lie thought he bad found such a basis in the valuation for the Poor law rate as prescribed by the recent Act fur the intro Inc tion of Poor-laws into Ireland. It showed upon the flee of it a fixed and definite view, and bad been used for purposes solely distinct from the franchise, in opposition to any desire to be placed on Cie registry, They had then the desire, which was far more prominent and prevalent in mankind, namely, that of sparing himself any pecuniary burden he could avoid. He was glad to find that these views and opinion% which came recnmmended by sound reason and common sense, had been strongly recom mended by persons whose authority he would rather have had than that of any others on such a question ; because it was that of persons who took a moderate view of political questions and belonged to both sides of the House. It was said by an Hon. Friend of his, whom he did not then see in his place, the Hon. Baronet the Member fur M allow ( Sir .1. D. Norreys), on the occasion of a similar measure being introduced by the Attorney-General in the course of last Session—. That ho regretted the Attorney-General had left the franchise open to dispute, and to be decided by opinion instead of facts. lie thought the subject w. 11 worthy the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman, now that Ireland had been valued for the purposes of rating under the Poor-law Act, whether that might not be made the basis of the franchise. By the present Bill the proof of value was given upon oath, and landlord was arrayed against tenant in the unnatural struggle. It would be most desirable that a certain standard of qualification should be adopted, which would render the franchise incapable of being questioned or controverted, lie hoped such a plan would be adopted. He was followed by the Honourable Member for Monaghan opposite, whose words he would now quote to the House. (The Noble Lord then read an extract from a speech de livered by Mr. Lucas during the course of last Session, in which that Hon. Gentleman stated that he agreed with the Hon. Member for Mallow as to the necessity of devising some method of exactly ascertaining the franchise, and that he thought the Poor-law valuation might very advan tageously be adopted for that purpose.) He would not quote what he himself had said on th at occasion, although he was under a strong temptation of doing so, if only for the purpose of showing how little he was subject to the charge of inconsistency for now appearing as the advocate of the Poor -law franchise. The Noble Lord had the other night taunted him on this subject, he supposed as a return for his having given that N able Lord his vote on the only occasion on which he did give it him during the course of the last Session ; but that speech would clearly show that he was not open to any such charge, because he gave as his reason for opposing the proposition of the Ii ,n. Mem ber for Mallow, that at that period there was no power of ascertaining the amount of the Poor-law valuation. lie would now proceed to quote from a speech relating to the ascertaining the franchise, delivered not on the subject of the Registration, nor of the Poor- law, nor during the course of the last Session of Parliament, but delivered in the month of Msy 1838 by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose absence on the present occasion he (Lord Morpeth) deeply regretted, on the subject of the franchise under the Municipal Corporation Act. (The Noble Lord here read an extract from the speech of Sir Robert Peel delivered on the occasion alluded to its which the Right Hen. Baronet stated, that he would not consent to a mun'cipal franchise, which should be so uncertain as the Parliamentary one, • and should give rise to a Cern• mittee for the purpose of ascertaining the number of fictitious votes on the register—that he thought the best franchise to be adopted would be one that would act as a check upon those seeking to obtain it, and that he thought the Poor-law valuation would be the most desirable standard for ascertaining the franchise that could be adopted.) These extracts which he had read completely confirmed the view he had taken as to the necessity of fixing and ascertaining the franchise, and adopting such a standard for that purpose as should in itself afford a suffi cient cheek. He thought he had shown the House that the Government, in the course they had adopted were fortified by reason and authority in asking the House to accede to this proposition for fixing the franchise accords ing to the Poor- law valuation. He was ass are that there remained not the least difficult task to be performed, and the one not the least open to discussion—he meant the settlement of the amount at which it would be desirable that the franchise should be fixed. He was aware that he wa s approaching rather stormy confines, and that it was hardly to be hoped that what he had to propose would be equally acceptable to both parties in that House; be only hoped that whatever differences of opinion might arise on that point, the House would believe that in what they were about to propose the Government had been actuated by honest motives, and had proceeded on reasonable grounds. It was usually apprehended on the part of those who were friendly to a liberal interposition, that there was not a valuation of every tenement as required by the provisions of the Poor-law, and that the many deductions from the clear value, and the desire which was so inherent in the mind of every person who was liable to be rated under the Act to have the amount of his contribution reduced to the lowest possible level in almost any amount of rating con nected with the Poor-law rate, would have thee- ffect of raising the standard for the elective franchise higher than required by the Reform Act now in force. He had before expressed in the House, as he had already intimated, his own opinion that it would be highly expedient to connee . the standard of the elective franchise especially with the Poor-law rate, as the most satisfactory assessment of the kind which could be furnished. He had at the same time to explain that in the previous year they were not furnished with sufficient information as to the probable working and result of the Poor-law valuation, and that consequently it would be premature to have recourse to any final legis lation on such a basis. II c was afraid that even at this day they were not furnished with as complete information as could be wished on the point, but such information as it had been in their power to gain they bad thought it their duty to exert themselves to attempt to acquire, and to col lect and digest as they best could. As soon as his Right Honourable Friend reached Ireland after the last Session, he had put himself in communica tion with the Poor-law Commissioners, in order to obtain information in what unions the valuations were in such a state of forwardness as to afford the mast light on the subject, and also as to the working and result of the whole system in the different parts of the country, and under different authorities, positions, and circumstances. His Right lion. Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland select ed two gentlemen of his own profession, on whose character he could place the greatest reliance, and they were di rected under the advice of the Poor-law Commissioners, to repair to such unions as he pointed out as most likely to laud the fullest information that could lie obtained, and there to inquire as fully as they could into the nature of the mode in which they were drawn up, and where they could obtain information as to the lists of registered Elec tors. in pursuance of those instructions, those gentlemen vialted unions in Longford, Belfast, Kilkenny, Cork, Ar magh, and other places. Now, it certainly was to be wished that they could have comp r i se d more u nions in their inqu'ry, but the imperfect st a t e i n w hi c h they found many valuations prevented this from being the cese. The uniformity they had observed in the course of the pro ceedings in all the districts they had visited, and the diffe rence of the circumstances in these respective unions, gave them reason to hope that the results they had taken were a fair sample of what would appear on the whole surface of Ireland. lie was sorry to trespass upon the patience of the House, but he felt it was necessary that he should impart to them something of the main sub stance and principal results of the inquiry which had been submitted to the Government, and he thought he should do so more briefly if he quoted the parties' own words ; he would condense them as much as possible, but as they formed the ground work of the proposition which ho had now to make, he trusted the House would bear with him, while he quoted a few extracts. They said that they bad inspected the rule books in every union, and the minutes of the board of guardians, and had extracted the valua tions, that generally they found a uniformity. The Corn. mittee appointed in all the unions that had been visited, came to the resolution that a new valuation was necessary. In the unions visited, an opinion prevailed that the valua tion under the Poor-law, ,vouid influence the landlord? in determining the amount of the rent; and a desire also existed that the relative value of the tenements should be ascertained, that each might bear their burthens pro. portionally. Mr. O'CONNELL inquired who were the valuers? Lord moßPuTit said Nlr. Haines and Mr. Vescy, who had made most minete inquiries in each maims. The Noble Lord then teed reports from several other unions to the same effect, but which it would be vain to endea vour to report without having the documents themselves. lie knew not whether, from these stetementsi the Nettle Lerd might net reitkoii upon ii as a triumph, that there were many 101. freehelders on the registry who should not be placed there. However that might be, he thought it right to put the House in posEcssion of the true and core rect state of the Case. He thought the test that he ilag about to propose Was fully equal to the test of the beneficial interest, or the test of what a solvent tenant would give. He thought th a t the facts and circumstanceswltith he had pointed out went to show that a rated net value of tut. under the Poor.liw Act would range ve r,r far indeed above either the solvent tenant test or ttie occupiers profit feet. In fact, v°L. thana' .rare lue the standard fur the election franchise r. way net clear va that h z e, f. te w c i t;e d many . Ilootelest ra it te abuse. lie Was aware that if the test of the -. was at present, even where there was no suspicion of Commissioners was applied to the elective franchise there would be in some instances a contrary MotiVedo induce persons to have themselves rated higher: but he thought that would operate veryhe Right Hon. Baronet feebly in the had been illustrated by he human breast , as ber for TattiWorth i the prlellegn of voting being only enjoyed occasionally, and after cons iderable intervals, t. the Mein= while the pressure of the Poor-law rate upon his purse or his pocket formed an annual drawback and annoyance. When they were called upon to make an alteration in the elective franchise, ft could hardly be considered expe dient by those who had head the statements in that House, and which could not impugned, being Parlia mentary documents, the comparative number which et:. joy ed elective franchises in both countries being extremely small. As regarded Ireland, he did not Fish to enter upon that point of the inquiry, it being the peculiar province of the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin.—(Hoar, hear, hear.) But he would not do justice to that part of the ert gument if he did not briefly call the attention of the Howe to wile of - the most strikiair 'vaults 3 1.0 0ukulf ba observed between the number of Parliamentary electors in Ireland and other parts of the kingdom. He would give the comparati,.e, number of inhabitants and of electers in different counties in England and 'relent! in the year 1837, fur which he had correct returns. He found that in Monmouth the population was 185,128, and the number of the constituency was . In the county of Carlow the population was 72 391 at the end of the year 1837, and the constituency 1,723. In Bedford, in Eng land, the population was 88,424, and the constituency 4,134. In the county Louth the population was 94,203, and the constituency 989. In Cheshire the population was 260,462, and the constituency was 12,000. La Ros_ common the population was 244.000, and the constituency 2,061. In Somerset the pupal ition was 327 000, and the constituency 18,415. In the county Tyrone the popula tion was 300,95.3, and the constituency 2 862. And in the county of Mayo the population was 366 328, and the constituency 2,057. He wished to state a fact in reference to the conatituency rf that last county, of which he had been assured. He had been told, on erodible authority, that, at the last election there, it appeared that the con stituency had completely dwindled down ; and he had been informed by one gentleman that the number of electors now on the registry amounted only to 500 or 600, and by anmher that the number was stated at between 600 and 700. Yet these were the constituencies which the Noble Lord and Hon. Gentlemen opposite would make them believe was swelled up and vamped up by spurious voters. He did not think that any attempt to dielini,h such a constituency would be consonant with or recognised by the British Constitution. —( Hear, hear.) lie would proceed further with his re ta. ns. In the county of Cork the population was 660,564, and the constituency 37 418. In Yirk,hire, the county with which he ( Lord Morpeth) was but too proud to be connected, the population was 891,795, and the consti tuency 47.972. He owned that in this state of eircum• stances—in this relative position of the pepulation and constituencies of the two couetries, it appeared to him that it would not be e24.edieat t t raise in say degree the s andard of the elective tranc'aise as it r xisted in Ireland. He had already quoted his reasons for believing that a very considerable reduction of the nominal value of land would take place in Ireland if they adoped the Poor-law valuation, and that they would thereby lower the berm tide amount of property which would entitle to the franchise under the Reform Act. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Of course it woull be 'n .pele.ts and chimer:cal, on the part of Government, to attempt to fix on any precise sum which should be con sidered as an exact equivalent, under the Poor-law valu tion, for the amount of value prescribed by tee Act. It appeared to him, however, that where the Poor-law fix,d the rate on the occupier as a matter of necessity which must be discharged by himself, and net by another, that they might take, as the amount of the rate requisite to give the elective franchise, a net value of five pounds, that was to say, if they adopted the Poor-law valuation. He would take as the amount of rite requisite to give the elector's franchise the rateage of Si. He did not disguise from himself that in the course of time this might lead to some increase in the number of those who eejoyed the elective franchise.—( Hear, heer.) But he de:i not think it would be any sudden or violent increase ; he thought it would be a very slow and gradual one, and that it would be perfectly in propertion to the increase in the wealth and resources of the country. It would be ascertained by a fixed and definite mode, and it would be guarded, as far as any human contrivance or device could be guarded, against the peas hility of any fraud or polka. tion. He did not propose to effect any material alteration in the tenure under which the elective franchise was at present enjoyed. He knew there were some who were for fixing the franchise purely upon rateage, without any reference to tenure, making the right of voting entirely independent of the period of the interest which the occu pier Lad in his house—( Hear, hear) and he knew that one or two very plausible reasons might be stated in defence of that principle. But he (Lord Morpeth) thought it would be a novel principle in a constitutional point of view. The only antecedent which they had of it was the 50/. tenant-at-will clause in England ; and as far as the practical working of that been developed, it did tot fill him with any irresistible wish to extend the same innovation, upon a much more enlarged sc he, to the entire population of Ireland. It was true that this innovation would make the occupier, as to his right of voting, en tirely independent of his landlord. They now frequently heard, whether with justice or not, of the mode iu which landlords dealt with their tenants who did not coincide with them in their political opinions. He thought that to give the right of voting, when there was no right of pes- • session, would expose a far larger and more helpless class to a much more real dependence on their landlords, and to risks of a much more severe retaliation; and, much as he desired the extension of the elective franchise. he owned that he set a higher value upon the harmony and good will of the several classes of society. While, therefore, he would discountenance and do what in him lay to repress all undue aggressions of one class upon another, he would not originate any proposition which would have the efftet of heightening and inflaming those differences. He pro posed, therefore, to annex the franchise to the possession of a tenement rated at the net value of 5/. He had now brought the main provisions of this Bili before the House. It appeared to him that the fixing of the franchise upon the Poor.law valuation would go f,r to dispose of the necessity fur the Zwo other alterations. They would then have a fixed and ascertained basis liable to no fraud, lead. ins to no disputes, and susceptible of no contrvietion ; and this, he owned, was in Iris mind the great inherent su periority which the rateage code that lie ( Lord Nlorpeth) had proposed had over that which had been proposed by the Noble Lord opposite. As a complete system of re giatration, the Nuele Lord's might appeur more complete in all its parts, especially if his wish were to draw the voter into the meshes of a tangled and intricate machinery. —( H:ar, hear.) With an unsettled and disputed fran. chaise, it would still caray with it the seeds of cadleas con- The!, and a continued array of antagonist passions and parties, whit h would only be overcome by that process for which be (Lord Morpeth) thought the gill was admirably calculated—that of choking and smothering the elective franchise altogether. The system which he ( L ird )lor path) tendered to the preference of the House put an end almost at once to every possible litigated and controverted point to which it applied ; and, as at once distinctly ascer tained and permanently recorded, supplied in itself a coun tervailing and counteracting check against the introduc tion of any abuse, and came down to them recommended by the concurrent suffrages of the best authorities. That the measure which he had then stated would meet with the universal acquiescence of the House, he was not sanguine enough to anticipate ; but he could not divest himself of the hope that what he then proposed, the more it should be considered end the more it should be canvassed would recommend itself to the de liberate acquiescence of the most rational men of all ' parties, and to the general acquiescence of the country ; and in this hope and in this faith he would " move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to the qualification and registration of Parliamentary voters in Ireland." The SPEAKER having pat the question, Lord STANLEY then rose, and said that under every circumstance he should have followed the example that had been set him by the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, and upon the motion of the Noble Lord as it originally stead for leave to introduce a Will to amend the law with regard to the registration of Parliamentary voters in Ire land, or, as it had been altered within the last forty-eight hours, for the amendment of the law of franchise as w 11 as of registration, have abstained from offering any oppo sition to its being introduced, or any lengthened observa tion on the contents of the Bill. But, said the Noble Lord, if I should have done so under any circumstances, more especially am I called upon most cautiously to i,h,tain from observation, when the Noble Lord by way of a postscript—an indispensible postscript indeed, but a postscript only—to the great and pressing subject of regis tration, introduced by way of a clause and appendage to the subject no provision for the purpose of removing doubts as to the existine qualification—no att em p t at de fining the present franchise in Ireland, bat a new Reform Bill, founded upon principles unknown in Ireland— founded upon principles unheard of in England —founded upon principles of which no human being would have dreamt wit h regard to Sco:lmd.—( Hear, hear ) Why, Sir, to imagine the Noole Lord can append this species of postscript to a Registration Bill, and that it shall not have the effect, whatever the Noble Lord's intention may be, of rendering the passing of his registration measure, and the remedy of those abuses, which, I am happy to floc!, he acknowledges almost to the full extent—impossible, at all events, during the present Sess : oa—l cannot for a single moment doubt. I ask whether it is possible the House can agree to this measure, without having any notice beforehand of the data upon which it is founded, without having any information furnished to the lieuse— more than that, seithout information posse sod by the Noble Lord himself, on rihieh to found any possible cri terion by which, not to judge of, but to guess at tee result t and the effect of the measure he is about to propose.— ( Cries of " hear, hear, hear ") Upon what is it that the Noble Lord proposes to found his alteration of the whole system of the franchise as it now stands itt Ireland ? Upon what is it that he proposes to found the deviation and de partitre from ei , efy ptineiple which the law or England and the law of Scotland, with regard to Parliamentary elec tion, have hitherto been considered to be settled ? Why upon the information of two gentlemen, friends, as he states, of the Hen. and Learned Attorney. General, who have been dent ptieately by the Noble Lord to ten of the Poor-law unions in Ircl Ind, and who bring hack their re turns from those Poor-law unions, which the Noble Lord reads to us, as to part, from the menuscript he has re eeieede.ewhich the Noble Lord has not informed us he pro poses to lay on the tahle of this House for our guidance, hut on which he considers himself justified to call upon Parlia ment to accede to this enormous alteration of the fran chise. It is impossible to follow the Ncble Lord when he reads the statements of these gentleme::, as they have deriiied this from the Poor-la w C omm i ss i oners, or rath-r from the various guerdians of the ten unions, and to ascer tain upon what principle it is that this valuation on which he proposes to rest the whole fabric of his measure has been founded. But from what I have been able to collect froth the Noble Lord's reading, I really hrelly know whe ther t aril to believe the evidence of my senses, or whether I em not under some strange misconception of the Noble Lord's intention when he tells us that these ' ValtlatiCin9 have been founded, as he considers, upon the net value of the property according to the amount of rent at Which a fair and just-dealing landlord might be cxpec;ed t ti it to the tenant; and yet the Noble Lord tells us the vaitmtlons so founded, giving to the wiv-Ac of the property the net value, the rent in the market, independent of any deductions of bio 6/., or 10/., are found to be fifty and a hundred per cent. too high for persons who actually at this moment are registered as electors, having a lo u beneficial s interest. —( Hear, bear.) The Noble Lord tells h t o ha that in the ease of Balruddery ho found 200 101. e lecto rs had, yi in some shape or other, a beneficial interest oflol.a year. The Noble Lord also tells us that of these 200 electors he finds no less than 50 the whole value of whose property in the market is no more than 10/. a y ear,if they paid trot finds one shilling rent for this proper t y . He also . no . less than 17 of whom thew vAlagoro tlechitre that to wool@ amount was let to-morrow it would not be worth more than P/ a rear, and yet these persons are registered as having a beneficial interest over and above their rent, entitling them to vote up on a 101 qualification.—( Cheers from the Cly pysoion. \V, it might the Noble Lord think he would give ma a triumph.--(Cheers ) It is a peremptory tri umph, but I c ou ld h ar dl y b e li eve that a system of -fraud upon the existing franchise in Ireland had been carried on in any country to that ecorirvoYs exttllt to which he now learned from the statement of the Noble Lord it had been. —( Cheers and counter cheers ) The Noll , : Lord says that the alteration which he proposes is a large alteration, and that it is a fresh settlement of the franchise. No doubt it is a large alteraion— no doubt it is Atogether a fresh settlement of the franchise.—( Cheers. ) I shall not follow the Noble Lord through all the topics he has urged, and which he says have hitherto been the exclusive property of the lion. and Learned Merv'. r for Dubin, of the corn parstive proportion between population and representation in various counties in Ireland and England. I should like to kn , w distinctly from the Government wlietlptr they row declare it was the intention that the Refonned Parham, nt or the qualification of electors, should be based upon po pulation, arid not upon property --(Opposition cheers. ) I, as a Member of Lord Gray's Government, always un derstood it was distinctly stat e d by every Member of the Government, that it was on property, and not upon popu lation, the franchise was pr posed to la• based; that the right was to depend not upon the numb or of the popula tion in a particular county, but upon the numbAt of that pepulation who were in possession of a certain nmount of property, which property would place them in such a state of respectability and independence of circumstances as would entitle them to exercise the elective franchise,— ( The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies ail! not deny that proposition ; and I ask the Noble Lord, I entreat hint to correct me, it I am wrong in stating that these are his propositi o ns—th a t ever y man w h o occupies a dwelling, with land attached to it, to be rated at 3/. a y car, shall be entitled to the benefits, which by the present laws are conferred on those who are rated at 101 ? Lord MORPETH—With fourteen years' interest. Lord STANLEY—Very well with fourteen years' interest. I heard a great deal said of the inexpe.dicncy of lowering the franchise in counties to let ; but if I rightly understand the Noble Lord, he proposes to deluge the counties.—(Cheers) At the rate at which land is let in Ireland, every man who is in possession of a cabin and two acres of land, although he pays double or rack-rent, shall he thrown upon tho cons7iTu:.ney for the purpose of creating a body of free and independent voters. —( Repeated cheering from the Opposition Ix:net:es.) I h,pe I righly understand the Noble Lord. Indeed, I take it from his silence that I did not misunderstand him— ( Eicar)— and that I have stated his intentions as he wishes them to be understood by the Hou ,e and the country.— (Hear.) It so, I will not now prematurely comment upon any part of the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) I earnestly desire to see it printed, and to leave it to tell its own tale, and to make its own way in this House, and with the people of England and Ireland.—(Loud cheers from both sides.) Lord HO WICK. said, Sir, like my Noble Friend who has jest sat down, I propose to reserve my views on this subject for a future stage of the Bill ; hut as I was last year placed in the pitiful position of being compelled, on morelthan one occasion, to oppose, in reference to this sub ject, those friends with whom for years I have been accus tomed to act ; I cannot deny myself the satisfaction now at the first moment to declare at once, and without hesi Cation, that iii the principle of my Noble Friend's proposi tion—as far as relates to the alteration of the qualification of voters in Ireland—l give him my most hearty concur rence.—( Great cheering on both sides.) Last year, when the subject wss under consideration, I was persuaded, as, indeed, it etas admi tni on both sides of the House, that the calving; system offered facilities for fraud end temptations to perjury, end to violations of all the principles of the law. Hear, hear.) 0 r that occasion I stated such to be my opinion, and the opiiii, n which I then expressed I do not now regret I said that I weuld support a measure which should provide for the more full and satisfactory administration of the law. I said that if the law was defsctive I would concur in its amendment ; but I would not be a party to an attempt to remedy the inconveniences by defeating and evading the law —( Hear, hear.) I would not consent to that course, because I believed that in doing so we should undermine in Ireland the sanctity of an oath—respect for the laws, and the principles of reli gion and morality e }jell constitute the true strength of a country. But, Sir, I supported the principles of the Bill introduced by my Noble Friend opposite, because I thought that Ist a little alteration, it might be made the means of carryrg out the law of registration fairly and satisfactorily. Believing this I would not consent to oppose that measure for any purpose of party convenience, nor even for the purpose of avoiding a separation from my friends.—( Hear, hear.) Bet I then gave a pledge that I sin now here to redeem.—(Cherrs.) Although I concurred with the Noble Lord in his desire to establish a tribunal to investi gate the claims of the voters, it was not my obj-ct to re strict the franchise—(Cheers) —on the contrary, I stated that I would he prepared to concur in any measure which would amend the extremely unsettled state of the franchise. —( Hear, hear ) The principle of the recom mendation now offered by my Noble Friend was, if I re member rightly, thrown out. by the Hon. Member for Monaghan, Mr. Lugs, and it seems to rest upon the simolest p'inciples of the franchise. It may be true, as my Noble Friend opposite ( Lord Stanley) has stated, that it is a plan unheard of in Engiand, and undreamt ce . in Scotland. Bet even if it be so ; yet, as I believe it is suited to the ex isting state of society in Ireland, and that it is calculated to correct the great evils which now prevail in that country, I am not to be deterred from giving it my support by any consideration of that kind.--( Cheers.) I think it is suited to the circumstances of Ireland.—(Cheers.) I think it is calculated to correct those evils.—(Cheers.) Wilt re spect to the existing franchise, I think it is impossible for any man to look to what is passing before our eyes and deny that it requires to be more clearly defined.—( Hear, hear.) What is the meaning of the words " beneficial interest," es they are understood on the opposite side of the House ? On teis side it in contended, and by many able lawyers, that they Wore intended to include whatever profit might be produced by a man's own labour out of his holding Oa the other heed, it is held by gentlemen opposite that every holding should be of the clear value of 101., with out any consideration of the labour employed upon it. But on th-t other hand it is contended that "beneficial inte rest" means that he is to be able to underlet his land to a solvent tenant for 101 more than he gives for it. If that definition is to be accepted, I say that the Reform Bill was a delusion practised on the people of Ireland : if that i 3 to be the definition put upon the words " beneficial interest," is it possible to conceive that, in the state of society in that country, and the manner in which land is usually occupied there, such a definition would not restrict and narrow the franchise in a manner inconsistent with the Reform Bill ? Well, Sir, if both those definitions fail, if we would put an end to those scenes with which we are familiar in Election Committees of this House, in which parties are brought forward—a land-surveyor on the one side swearing that the land was not worth 101., and the occupier swear mg, on the other, that it was worth that sum—both attach ' ing different meanings to the word, and both justifying thereby, in their own opinions, the oaths they had taken— if, I repeat, we wish to put an end to these abuses, we are driven to look for a new franchise, and in seeking for that new franchisee what principle is so simple in the existing state of Ireland, so likely to prevent disputes and wall cu ing swearing. and all the excitement of the present regis tration—what is se likely to answer all these purposes as to regulate the franchise according to the amount at which ' land is rated, and that he the condition on which the franchise is to be gained ? It appears to me that that principle is perfectly just and proper. It remains for consideration at a future stage of these proceedings to see whether the amount which my Noble Friend pro posed to make, namely 6/. annual, be a proper amount or not. Upon that point Hon. Members opposite gave a definitive opinion, but I will fairly state to the House, that, as far as my opinion on the question goes, I perfectly concur in the view of my Noble Friend. I con sider it of great importance with respect to Ireland that matters should be so arranged that the franchise in that country may not be improperly narrowed, and though those statements which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub lin repeated so frequently last year as to the comparative I number of voters with respect to the population of Eng land and Ireland—though in my opinion they are thoroughly worthless and idle when brought forward for the purpose for which they were used, yet they were of the most mate. rial importance when we are to consider how the new franchise is to be established. I feel too strongly attached to the great principles of popular liberty not to consider it absolutely necessary to fix the franchise in such a manner that the great body of the people of Ireland may feel that those representatives who come to this House in their name really speak the opinions and represent the feelings of the majority of the people.—( Cheers.) Unhappily it is the misfortuee of Ire and—it is the misfurtuire entailed on it by the inisgoveniment and misdeeds of foriner times, that the great bulk of landed property in Ireland is in the hands of persons divided by strong opinions and prejudices from the majority of the population. I regard that as an evil of the greatest megnitude in the present state of Ireland ; but it is in vain that we have passed an Irish Reform Bill, if, that being the state of things, we now so frame a measure by which the whole political power of that great country will be thrown into the hands of a small minority, whose power has, for the last few years, been put an end to, and which, if now again re stored, will be an evil still greater than its former exist ence.—( Ministerial cheers.) The interval which had oc curred, notwithstanding the many imperfections of the system, and its many gross and glaring defects, would make the evil of the restoration of ascendancy perfectly intolerable. Sir, the state of Ireland now is calculated to excite very serious apprehensions, and I, for one, do not regard the scenes which have been passing in that country during the last few months without very great concern and alarm ; but I believe that none of the great parties into which this country is divided are free from great and serious blame for the existence of that danger in Irelaad (Hear) I think that great blame, if I may be permitted to say so, is attributable to Hon, Gentlemen opposite, who are in, the habit of holding language and supporting measures which must be highly distasteful to the great body of the people of Ireland. I think, on the other hand, that great and serious blame is due to those who for many months, have been repeating to t h e people of Ireland that the in tention of the British House of Commons . , assenting in its s everal stages to a measure of which the professed ob. ject was to emend the tribunal for registering elt•ctors— that the real intention of the majority of the British House of Con:mous, in passing that measure, was to disfranchise the yeople. of Ireland. Great and serious responsiblity was incurred by those who represented in this light to the people of Ireland the act of the majerity of the House of Commons in adopting a Bill, all the pars ca which had, at different times, been proposed by her Majesty's Ministers. He could not help thinking that those representations of the nature of the measure they were last year discussing, had had a great effect in creating in the minds of the people of Ireland, the great majority of whom could not he expected to be able to weigh the off cts of the different clauses of an Act of Parliament, but must judge of the effects likely to ty! produced from them by the represe.n. winos of those in tibotif they placed corifidenuo...ho cottid. MORNING E.221 11)1%T. had not help thinking that these representations , 0 1 11. 0/ I tributed mainly to create in the a inds of the p leased that feeling of soreness an d that sense of V ole ties which formed the foundation of the edifice revel agitation ; and he thought that still greater atria, was due to the lion, and Learned Member for I:) , :' ,as end he Was glad that the Id in. and Learned Gsa i ; b l : ha d aes pi eacnt to bear what ho said as to the mee s b e lted taken t o es : 6 , e that feeling of dissatisfaction to W iI:CJ alluded. H a deeply lamented the state of feelieg oe, saisttng in Ireland, and he blamed different partie s 1 / .11 cessories to the creating of that feeling. lie vino Pe t eres li persuaded that if both sides of the House wished to Hat the repeal agioition—if they wished to deprive the, 115 ,a and Learned Gentleman of that lever which be aaa ite ffsetively, they would, in votisiderirg th is meatus!. care that it should be so flamed as teat the p, i r las a h s a e d en 4 t l l r a: u o d y; b on this the iestradsitsnesruss.dsi.o—u ( u L f end checr s ' at !;neater length than he hsd intended t h h e e n he hi reole 7, 1 i ij O e f of the de_ t d hi d would not pledge himself to argue on any the plan has Noble Friend the Secretary fa: Irel" to m. that he e cr h tbit sketch, d out. All he meant to say was, most entirely cormurred in the principle on wh i t c e j t be measure was founded; and ;then the Bill was Pr th re. should look attentively into the details of the tue s e tlu av or hopes of fi nding there such as to carry into effect ta which he had expressed —( oud c heers ) to Mr. O'C ONN L wish Led, in the 'first ias t ''saa call the attention of the House to a statement t"athlt ; Hei se, been made by the Noble Lord on that s ide of the t o the and alluded to by the Noble Lord opposite, rel atipg , o ti l2l , registration In the barony of Balruddery , in the antes' Dublin. The statement was, that out of 200 rega s p re • voters there were no less than toa the whole of arh°:isoir• perty was not rated at more than 101 a-year to t h e Gco' law. Now he wished to inform the Hou se that tb co ir , denten who bad registered those voters, his ° ye ar , it t had even othe la, been ,neli,beLated that eonsid thatered a s a rigid Cobseron'e casion appeared in peblic, wearing the O ha ra d :; t bi tin g er es He was not aware whether such was the fac t, ° r olle r could he no doubt as to his political principl es ; ov al° could there be any doubt that that geintlemae hel° , t bc opinions as to the value. Ile considered the tie- rete st en : c au va e t l " , :n ,. d acrr t applied, was the solvent tenant test, so that ther e d irt. had been registered by a gent!, man of C cdes, and who adopted the highest test cf ueder the Poor-law valuation fifty out 0 f 200 of d t he Tha t shoa e d o d thus registered, were ra:ed under lel. House that the Poor-law valuation was vot 0014 idisation. He would conf e ss frankly that this 131 cud be t Na o bl g e bt h eiLir ,i,a Lord hads e g i tree htiornsa)g that,rea tiatisfactiera . 0 0 11 hu give satisfaction to the people of I re l a i n f d a .--I Cltie'ers )r oitsg tiveaphr o cu t t h lue e c r ors N u.t u ) b u l i n f ies rd bad Eta ted ,it would tak n e O i l Noble(al . O L ' u C r d on n il e a l d l ass ) a said ,1 to pt sot made a wrong use of that weapon ; he 0. " Lo ra , o ' t enter into a discussion with the Nob le h a t ' a ' that subject. The Noble Lord was of opinion t d : lka)' / Session the H , use had intended fairly by Ir elan o earl' he was of opinion that the House had intended t so p; 0 Ireland. The Noble Load looked upon th e I:° • e a of tbe last session as one intended for the good reat ti°l _73 la' s ; franchise. lie ( Mr. O'Connell) looked upon lattischio sure having I reland its object to extinguish the fr rr 3 the people of.—( Cheers. ) But ther e 1 10 8° 1 to solve every doubt, an easy way of contradietil paier'o showing he was wrong. He would prcpose t t he So l ) m L e or a r's re ßil a l s , th a ey t i ( s ' - s o t ts . would l u r e t , t (Top i t l in " . " ae in ag e aresuedrct:}old°cl'a themgiveand agar sire t w y satisfactionevery n o d the fu pretenceuie ()cphl char rf b i or r fi c u l g a p n ien d rgi , t yd t : t ; ...a . , e e ld ven ha t v b e e th t e em a p d t v a a ti n u t u age tu g of f t a a ls k e ing swearir g elof body even cheers.) But what if they adopted the ITICOStl! A 6 bo' Noble Lord opposite ? Why, t h at Nob c larud ea ."aece a 1 from defining the franchise— , (Cheers)-eehedintit:lsaa ihh: Registration Bill, and although he h a ;a , trouble ud h e h s t b e t c o d e construct i a he w most elaborate maeh'a - 'a oo t Il ic eb " l , i e le nt w t a o s o p, a u d y o, in tax North of England, and proponisertfha:4;utitel‘ciulitlti,l some most elaborate piece cf machinery, the W hat );) p w r h o i p e u h se wo y u u ld ui l . ae p ul r a o c p h o i s u e e d ry to I t t u im d i u vo ? u_ict ( het, - 0 1 0 0 ,711 If he said, " I am undecided what sort or seas b° be, but lay out your capital on the machiee, tecd, O'Connell) thought the Noble Lord tbe i e v o Q l ,, r , l i d irt e ce t oo ds_u l laughed at :umuch Yorkshiren a‘tlr,i.cm)u; ut thenas he th the e a: u d s i e s e x l a i s s h , t d t w e ol: t r a ci ;: a. l not I eisut e to define ioittibtile:eyfrial:suasi House—that u t t h i e t et Whenit to • d have an appeal every year to the Judges ? ari ' c oed who di ff ered on the sulad rtu ' r- r e Huila-. before he had statel that seven Jilug, bu t s o favour of the question of the solvent tenant joinyve t uc e r s e :_ s s isi : t h 2 ,6 o I s fi i v i - i c e 7 . cre T t i h ) : portehseurutw Chief Baron atrhueurebandad he j en t h e 6 56 0 , that take it as strongly as they would there —( Hear e b a r r u h u e g a h r t , h b e e a f r o . r ) e J b u u s t ti i c f e b l3 O -1 1 had cttt "' B as e r O . f the fa e tb t d th h e e ° opinion as he was a hen at the proportion would be exact] altersdhere "e" in his (Mr. O'Conre !P.) Y fl ee conrary. ha . 3 . b ay, and t he d s aeu . , e a placedthlasLtau ( tt c w h n e, t r n s ) vi bi s c h e uu t l h d e p a s u o y ip i l m e pouf ! c reate be p ria ,o ) tot , co eo ,e , Chief Baron political motives? He so thought this of him—he was not much e mploY eu lt : s old e i s vocate, hut he (Mr. O'Connell) thought that - sta riCe I most excellent Jud e. They had a similar .1' arse this country ; the present Lord Chancellor he lic'e 4 ,o first-rate advocate , but he (Mr. O'Connieli),o poPti; admitteddtrwheeactilnsiuvgiessri.eted fur a t u h that advocate was cat e a a first-rate ud fo: a J J u u d e g g e e • %retro. L e d a f' d ' r b ad l a ie m t u b a ci t u cs a u li t t isfa t u h t e urv C jhuidefgmßenarton of r .'" g r° r° i n turraittas ties But the Noble Lord's (alor eth's) ;co uld e P a to all this, and an end to allPdiscussion 33 tO t 'ib t of Ju iges.—( Hear, hear.) Was it not said sit . e a tbe ° , , came into that House with bad politics to be kY r . selves Judges ? While this system lasted it mu; t ° (Hear, hear, hear)—the fairest men would be ' 1 Dot nit lumny ; and calumny against the Bench, aoheipeacsr served, when it was calumny, was certainly , b woo ld c a ) to be encouraged by any etatesman ; but ths, eon! tinue if they followed the Noble Lord's (Ler(hise tie llr (Hear.)p H la a n w , le wh , which brefusedChairman eafn to i3O futrTeuluilp Tipperary, d i d h the n fr a n c o aycia t ° c a r Here were two men, as far as n e t e c i ci o n e u: i d d h e s e er c i t: c ti c :s ; 's l 6l it, this o h a situation same et;o n s, , Cr- ni a pton went the Circuit he would construe ' co o. re . the Chief Baron went he would construe it lihG°ve,a tpoolleitalveco,tbwehforadiffereyd on the su'a' se ,leaa this would be avoided by adoptinif the Bill of th e de fthe to ment.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord t all ' e , 1 0 ' ) cf tuation of Ireland. It is right that he should do s: itus lioit e o f sneered at by some; but I know more of th e , , peerloo Ireland, and I avow that thete is among o eav'a i ef Ireland a strong, an overwhelming, a "' etc- l'b is :so s that they cannot obtain justice in this House. rn o e r opinion. Is it then, more prudent for You - 7; c jugr icc 'hs 6 have your choice—to show a disposition to do 000 0 i r e , to act with oppression ?—( Hear, hear. ) T he avior ti4 i now the opportunity of showing its feeling t ' ui tico land. An d P I ask you is it rot wise to do o h i n a, s s don't care what prejudice or bigotry o ''' Y t o, is , ! si t e believe it is from sonic notion that et ebul for the Protestant Church that y" Y br ° , sively towards us, though you therebt: Pa y roe bad compliment to the Protestant Chu"(tCliecepie you make it the ally of injustice and oppres sin i n :;i l iref ias °l But taking the situation of Ireland, this fee' l aaa olsl ao se t ing. And aro you at liberty to fo.get that Y-tit it s t 0 g° the right arm of the country? You maY 91° : 4 not „1 uP - than you suppose. Franco is now determitVa oda" i tr , to war at present, but has she made err ed to not to go to war when she i s p rcp 3( to go ,ht ou sure she is not now preparing t noohsio war? Is not the popular sentiment set„litah°,scri by erecting forts round Paris, and are not t h a n ing, - s oo i been thought most anxious for liberty, st ra 'i s no", 0 1 nerve to make Paris formidable to the svorld? ea eei rt a io peace an armed peace, as was said on the 6 : lt , sta t .: o o the Session ? Is tiot Germany. is not e ve . r; a to i l a it Europe, arming? And are you going at such o ' l o - raa tat ' il/ England, by shaking off Ireland ? Is this tala e v r e tsa, Te Noble Lord may diselay his talent, he I°. prejudice —I won't call his hatred, or his ir ' t 5 ,4 1 wards us, but let him remember that at no t it ' t he Pr e vo or honest to make a country disaffected. . a t eaed, doh time it is totally unsafe to make Ireland diss ue j no • ct e / will want Ireland, I know not how soon , you may have her at the slight purchase ;ose f J° h e f th e ( Hear, hear)—and no doubt, also, you M a Y, ta be s c o ld ° doing her injustice. In one of those dela s t b e a ti No e ti s i t e ud L l, o c rd f t ( b L is or i d lou P s a e le t te h r e sto N e o ) ;le a Infi,cohuistloo;iteaat tot'olatioh; li v f t pe -m ( s ) p o s e l) t uri A ao, l difficulti whichaY s ou t r o : er i c ia: n tiis s a a iff, s uesc m s. ou co o gr e i t s r;: . t „o r r oi is equally true of Ireland.--(1:0-;ivattaoa to It is true. I therefore caii upon the lioaser/ cs i l l i s o divide to-night, you will have time to this w ho tli c. those of large fortunes, of great possessioeisron occota case and luxury—l call upon the wealthY r t be 5 oa t community to well bethink themselves that t t u t be s ttr `c enjoyment of all these luxuries, they may o' n o pos I ' l ' l ll o° of Ireland in the day of battle. ilicy c oo k o f i f c' braver or a stronger—l call upon them to, e rse a ° , 0 0 , 6 things, and to !slake their choice be tween t ' le . 1 one ' pi e ) b ls land and the Noble Lord's (Lord Sta nley ' t ri al of t ) j side, and the blessing of Ireland and the la, che cis ale so Secretary ( Lord Morpeth) on the other.---tcoorav Mr. Sal A%V was not surprised that the 1' ii a 3 sa,.ote Learned Member for Dublin had said h e , 0 01; I f or o with the provisions of the Bill of the Noble a'sable s ell own part he (Mr. Shaw wondered) that th e 11 hats s i s had named any sum at ail; m i g ht as aree ov er universal suffrage, fur a 51. franchise to P r wr s o ge• Ireland was something similar to u n iversal so" s to bc ",loo' monstrous to give counties as small a franchisreoa,, the a of Mr. II UalE begged to ask, notwillestal.;rized nigh Member who had just sat down bad c harae' it te as ' t elt franchise in Ireland as m onstrous , wh e , t e ber tlo ti ' ° afit d Strout to give a fair franchise to Irelana the ffre-were the proposition of the Noble Lord on oi ta d o ni th e benches was most excellent one, and it ,, w a t he f r o ° d, to put an end to neitetion Ireland, an a iete - 1 4 ' lion. Member fot Dublin the great poaer h n e dove to ala censequenee of the injustice that had buttotiaesatheto I rid, than any measure that had been ' t eat d hoped the House of Commons wou ld s lio terra ine were gentlemen in that House , who Were de cote(' do justice, to Ireland. Lord l e 6e' t d h t a n d a t bic3:cir: a ri le °°l a cc e ; tuStirthßereßwAusTESO hurdle lat a opiasreisriv,ediuthfartehit, the A 4 t 3nd u • t f for ri t i t u i : m d North Member m g Lancashire, ai:rs t thei3;ll ouffethdeenNieorbilethat, 010 0 ch Te'P a he n ls g t l e c r. pe t t that pruv bad uu e c e u m ut a u n i , u .s e e d d s fso m rn u j ee til ! who had made the assertion 1° U That and property as any othe. three provinces L ov a fo i re , thanks of the prevince of Ulster had been, h ti" Noble Lord for bringing in the Bill f9r whlc • CCIYOtI 41 1 P 1 4 ocarriliV an{ obttio