The Sun. — London, England, 1819-05-22 00:00:00

t ARLIA E T. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 21. After the judici,ll business of the day was dis posed of, Lori{ VattNob: took the oaths rand his :seat. I'heir Lordships then adjourned during plea sure, preparatory to the iisportar't discussion nt the eveving; and at about five o'clock the !'louse resumed. A considerable number of Private or Local Bills were brought up from the Commons by Lord W. Bentinck, General Gascoigne, Mr. Cattwright, 14ir Pryce, and ocher Members, and severally read the first time. Several accounts respecting the import and ex port of gold and silver bullion, the coinage, esr ciaily of copper, and respecting the amount of bullion exported to China, vvere presented at the liar from the Mint Office and the East India Ilonse, pursuant to tecettt orders of their Lord- ships, and ordered to he printed. Some convert.ation took place reTeeting the !inures of the B-,tustaple Election NIL in which the Earls of Carnarvon, Lauderdale, and S , aftes; hot -7, and the Ind Chancellor, paricipated, ss.hi c h teiminat,rd in an undetEtantltng that the Lill should stand for a second reading •on Tues d,y next. THE LONDON PETITION. 'The Earl of Ca'uoutoActs sieved he bad a peti tiou to present to their Lordships (torn a consi derable number of the most etnioent Merchants, Bankers, and Commercial Men of the Metropolis, the plan ,A hid) it was now omit rstood to be the intention of his Majesty's Govermneut to rceon:ntend to Parliament, respectine, the circu lation or currency of the country, as appeared from the Resolutions. They apprehended that a weat and totted diminution of the circulation would ensue from the adoption of the plan. tie by no means understood that the petitioners nn ant to pray for the adoption of any thing like a permanent system of paper circulation in the country, but specifically against a plan which would induce a universal diminntion of the cit . - culation ; and in the sentiments of the petitioners upon this most important point he completely c , ncurred ; and when the opportunity should ar rive, lie was prepared to state how the etlect of the lit ojected plan would he to render the circu lating medium of the'-eonntry considerably less. ills Lordship then presented the petition, which 'was from a numerous body of Merchants, Bankers, 'Tradesmen, and others of the City of London and its vicinity, and to the effect he had stated. The Noble Earl added, that the petition would have been much more numerously signed, had the interval been sufficient ; and he observed that an .opinion was held by some of the pe t itioners, that if the plan passed, one half of the taxes could not be collected, and the commerce of the country would be eventually destroyed ; however, he thought there was scarcely a mercantile house in the city that would not have signed the petition. B EPRESENTATION FRONI THE BANK. The Earl of LAVDERDALE begged t•i put a ques tion of very great itnpottaoce to the Noble Lord at the head cif his Majesty's Government, lie bad - heard th,it a communication ot the sentrints of 'the Bank bad been made to hi, Majesty's Go. ve'unntent within two or three days, upon the sub ject of the plan about to be considered by the - House. They were certainly a body that-should know sornethiog ot tne subject. What he wished .to learn was, whetlier d t a paper had been pre 7 seined to :Ministers And in case of the affiy 'native, he had an idea of moving forks pro- _duct ion. The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed he'had no be attrition in saying, it was perfectly true he had that morning received a commonication from the two Gentlen►en at the head of the Bank Direction, and they had put into his hands a paper expres 'sive of the sentiments of the Court of Directors upon the measures now tinier consideration. The paper was in the nature of a commnuication made 'by them to his Majestrs principal Ministers.— They were asked, on delivering the paper, whe ther they wished it to be laid before Parliament ? The Deputation answered they bad not been au .thorised to express that wish. They were told, :that under such a commitnication his 'Majesty's .111inistrrs should not think themseles justified in. ,withholding the contents of that paper, shonlkr any requlsition respecting it be made. Whit re-, spect to !eying the paper before P.rliament, they: btAted they had no objection to its being so hid.. The Noble Earl added, if the Document were, mn ed tor, he had no objection to its being laid before the House. The 1 - !;arl of LAUDSRDALE then formally moved to that effect. On which The Noble 'Minister took the Paper from his pocket and laid it on the table.. • The Document was forthwith read by the Clerk at the table, and was in substance to the f o ll o wing effect : " That ,lie Court, of Directors thought it their duty to lay before his Majesty's .Ministers its sen timews with regard to the measures submitted tor their consideration. That, in the first place, MI utc ash re for compelling the resumption of Cash-pavments at the earliest period stated, would, in its t.ffect, he ruinous. That it must he obvious that as long as bullion, or . the juice of gold, con:inued at the rates stated, no return to Cash-payments could be effected %%jai advan tage to the public. The representation then en tered into a calculation with respect to the (litre- rent . prices of bullion, at which it was proposed , ' issues should be made, and stated in effect that to act upon such requisitions in the way proposed, would be injuritins . , if not impracticable. It de- precated the prepositions also, as far as they went, to deprive - the Bank of all discretionary power in many cases ; and the Directors observed that they ought to he the last persons with respect No whom any measures likeiy to' have such injurious effects ow , : lit to he adopted.' They, however, thought themselves obliged to bear . in mind; that tot only intcrcsts, but 'those of the . coritmuni..y at Li e, which was in Su great a meaotre confided :to thei r discretion, were likely to he most seri. oosly a ffected" in what was proposed. The Pi- Er ctor; could not hut feel and con-eider - the int portant situation in which they so often were plated, by the measures projected by Ms Maies-1 ty's Government, with whom it was so long a 1 reghlar_priticiple to recur. to theist. They telt it their duty to observe, they were irow called upon to procure funds for the purposes required, awl that within a limited period, regulated by the Mint price of gold. They thought it their duty thus to state their anxious sentiments to his Ma jesty's Ministers irr the — tire - instance. - The . pro posed plan would go to place them in, a state of great uncertainty and risk, and the ,dan gerous effects of it, as applicable to the commercial part of the.community, it was Ito - - possible to foresee. The representation went on to orrice certain parts of the Report of their Lordships' Committee with . respect to the prices of bullion, Wilk the conclusions in which they di*no! seem to agree;,and it referred to t ain points laid down, import which they did not consider themselves responsible. They again deprecated the proposed destitution with respect to their long possessed discretionary power, and without a ny adequate reasons being assigned for such---a power in which the best interests of so great a pa r t ill the community were deeply involved.-- That they had always "taken care to keep their is sues is ithin rea so 'table bounds, espeeia 11.,y I the great extent and arduous nature of the late war was considered ; and the Paper co tiltriled observing, that the Directors submitted these im portant considerations to his Majesty's Ministers, to show their . anxious deCire to take evt ry con sistent means on their p'art's to obviate- tire evils which they apprehend ;trust resull'frotir trie r pm posed measure. " [For the Official Bank COnninthication itself, see our Fit st Page.] The Paper was: immediaely ordered lobe print ed for the use of their Lordships. SEIZING THE PROPERTY OF CONVICTS. Bctore ate House •procceded to the theer of the I) y, Lord BuLKELEY said, he rose to T;nt a goes ti , n to the Noble Secretary of State for the Horne Department. A scandalous and disgracetul scene had lately tad en place at the Old Bailey, where there was a sci amble between the She; ifs _and some police officers, for the property of rapit til convict. lie wished to know from the Nuide Lord, whether any steps had been taken to put a stop to such scandalous proceedings in tuture ? It would surely be easy to ascertain who had the right to such property. Lord Siomotrrn said, he bad no intimation conweyed to him of any such transaction as that to which the Noble Lord alluded ; no report had been made to tin► which shouht call iris aitention to it ; nor had he any kiinerydge whdiever of the circnni,tance except trom public tuipour. RETURN TO A 111.:Li.I.LIC CURRENCY. The Older of the Day tnr their Lordshin3' tak ing the tounded upon the Report in to consitFeration. benteteati, The Earl of ElAKtsowsY, pursuant to his no tice, rose to Move t,r their Lordships agreeing to the saute. The Noble President, in a short in troductory speech (very little or front the evident indtsposition under which his Lordship I,thooted, could he satisfactorily beard below the bar) recommenr:ed the adoption of the Res()lo ti.4ns, as presentioe, the must salutary and least i r ,e x tivion‘thle way. wider the present circum stanees o f the country, for a gradual return to t he al cient and long establi - shed currency of the count ry. The propo:e4l plan tvent by gradual and regular means to effect so important art end, and preclude a mode which may fairly be ques ii„nahle, as hi g hly i furious, namely, an attempt - at too rapid a resumption of cash ryments. In concluding, the Noble Earl apologized, from his state of health that eveping, for his inability to enter upon a detailed view of the - subject ; and moved their Lordships' acquiescence in the Reso lutions. The Earl of LAUDERDALE, after expressing, his regret at the Noble President's state of health, and seeming at present to deprecate Wiletarhed discussion of the subject, tinned an Amendment to the Motion for agreeing to thr Resolutions, to leave out all after the word " That,"' for the purposelof introducing a string of Counter Reso lutions, deducing widely dilf dent conclusions : from what had appeared before their Lordships', Corninittee, and these the Noble Earl moved should be agreed to by the House, in the way of. AMendment. Earl GREY prOposed, 'as the most advisable con se in the present state of the question, that the Resolution proposed by his Noble Friend should be printed and lie over for discussion to some future day. His Noble Ftiend's proposi tions took a totally different view of the import ant.subject, and it could not be expected their Lordships cOuld,, at hearing them once read, be sufficiently masters of their import to discuss their comparative merits properly. He tf,precated any idea of put‘ing off the discussiOn - Merely for the sake of delay. His Noble Friend, who perhaps was More conversant with the extensive and in tricate sot ject than any other man, thought what appeared before the COmmittee adMitted of very different conclusions from those embodied the Resolutions Rroposed by the Noble Earl opposite, and their Lordships certainly ought to have some interval at judging between the two. He should. therefore, earnestly teconitnend the course be had adverted to, anti would suggest Tuesday next as the earliest proper period for resurnkngthe discus sion. • The Earl of LIVERPOdt expressed his opinion, that the subject was of that peculiar iMportauce; that it was essential (whatever opinion may be formed upon it) the decision of Parliament shrub be made as speedily as possible. More dis.td vantagesnight arise than many scented to be aware of, trout the question being thus left in a state of uncertainty and indecision. And farther, as the subject might be connected in some degree with the conduct, of the Eiecotive Gover'nment, he for one was anxious for an early opportunity of delivering his sentiments. However, it it should 6e the general sense or pleasure of'their . Lordships, be would not individually object - tr . ) a short postponement of the discussion. The Earl of RossLYN was of opinion it peot , ;(l be more advisable to postpone the discussion, for there were many Noble Lords; he thou4ht, who could not, in the interval allowed, form a dylibe berate judgment on the merits of the question. The suggestion of the Noble Earl's on the left. si'le of the Woolsack not teetbing to meet the ge neral concurrence of the II oilse, The Eail of Ltvaitrooe rose and proceeded re- gularly to the discussion of the important subj6;t . before the House. Taere never, he observed, was any subject so thoroughly sifted by Parlia ment as that now under consideratione It was not only before Pattiament that the subject had long been in a course of discussion, hot •it was- ine various other shapes before the public, and had been the topic of Very able discussion in the pub lic prints. Farther delay in the discussion would, lie must again observe, be productive of serious inconvenience. tie would need bring it before their Lordships upon general principles, and rather with a reference to it prospectively than otherwise. Nor should he enter into any abstract views of its merits ; its nature and extent present ing a sufficiently foimidehle task withciut coopliirg the subject with considerations of abstract theory. 'Fit its determining, he would observe; the•flonse now had three great cetestions to attend to : First, \Vas it eepedient Hoe( the country should recur to some fixed standard of value ? Secoodly, Is it prac ticable and expedient that . a return to the ancient staridaril of value Shoot(' take place? And,iliiidly. Wh e t are the best 'means of effecting these results? In consideringe these parts, tit. question Of the ex.: tent of the currency was the first consideration, lie lied aliveYs emeetieed, and w,is still reedy.to , e d m i t .- it, that the B oil Kt sti ic , ions were the means which enabled Its to ” , V,ll hem the s toi-O ) iehich stelong.over hung this country, awl enabled i t to gin throueh tho se ditlicul'iss, which, on his you-choice, tie heiteeedit otherwise cioliti mit,— It del not follow that he thoeght this syetem oneht to be art , d item , in ail wars. But the l a st contest wits o ne tos•imilet to all others All the Powers of f o irope were at one time linked ioge titer, tinder il,e cieetroul and diieetion of one Power, whosf• object t• is first the rnio, anti sob seioiently the suhi t igation of this country , Com tnenserate means end exertions "ii o ur parts t o resit this unprecedented arta) , against us, were holispensibly necessary, Those ciretnnstances . were however now gone by, and we were called upon, in peace, to decide, in emoid•policsrand ex pediency, what course ought to be adopted by this countiy. Parliament had, by 'its acts since the peace, declared it eyes the duty of this cooti e try to recur, as soon as is was practiesdele, to its former system of currency and eireolation. It was unquestionable', in his mind, that we ought to ret 'int to bonne fixed standard of value ; and his firm belief was, that the great mass of oppo sition which presented itself to the proposed plan, (though lie thotight it was con s e i eo tio tt e on t he pert of the Bank) was directed not ega.inst.the resumption of cash payments at any one interval of a year, or of six months, or at any tiniee-s but against the event of their ever returning. to cash payments ! All the .reasoning of such persons weot to such a length. But ettch a system was never touted to exist ill any so ciety ; all countries had some standard of value or other, whether it he copper, hop, silver, Or other met I. All proceeded tupelo some fixed standard 4, value ; the departure from it was never prooosed as a persoanent system ; neither could it be otherwise, were the dictates of sound. policy, reason, or even of common honesty, Ht. , scuttled to. All we ha:i hitherto done was. with reference to a return to our former system of cur- rency. Ile never doubted the moderation or jus tice of the Bank ; but Nvould ask, whether Par liathent could trust the Both to an extent which: it had never done with, res pect to the Sovereign] 1111011 the Throne. flow did the case stand ? The Batik, for , instance, isetsed eseenty mOlions of 1 notes upon Governmetit security ; we paid e theml about a million interest annually. But was it rew. rionable or fair "that the public should pay the• Bank a Million a year for the security of their notes, when, by issuing their own notes, t h e public may save the notion! million ? Some stan dard of value was u nvestiontably necessar y ; I such was liable to fluctuatimits, especially in P eriods of war, butt now, in 1 joie of peace. wt- should look steadily at our sit u ation, ant i e „o eee ; i vou . r, as s „,, - as prisetteahle, to retitril to that state of corrency, which Was most aoVanta4colis every Way, as well as the moat econo m i ca l ; 11 e wished ilie subject should be considered practi cally rather than theoretically; and he would ask, could they•consistently leave to any hotly of Men to issue their notes without reference to some re-: gideg system or standard of value ? He wished to pet this leading principle in front of the debate, and as t h e grand point upon which the whole should turn. 'the next point was whethei', if it were fit to return to some fixed standard of value; it were fit to return to the ancient standard ; and this upon every principle of political wisdom, and. even of honesty, lie thoueht they 'were called up on to do. The standard to be considered was, as it eXistethbehere the Bank - Resuiction took place, when gold was at 31. 17s. 10d.; This was aques tion which went in some shape or other to affect every individual in the kingdom, and it tnighebe regarded as the contract entered into with the creditor; and it was the duty of Parliament to see that such contract was fulfilled, and lie coUld show dial no material inconvenience in follow-lo t s ' tit ,It course, in consequence of the great exeriions which we had been compelled to make, had the efiect, for needy a period of 3 years, to raise the: !race to 51. 4s, making a difference of between; 'A or 30 per cent. ; but when peace arrived, they had all this ground to tread back. The pro , g eessin the lowering the exchange Was lOtfrropt.. ed by the lending of Buonaparte in the vesr I8!4. But Amu the middle of 1416, the EXehatiges aeaio became favourable foe this country, and t h e Mi nt prig-es o f gold proportionably tell ; rind if the Bank had not interfered as it had door, the price of gold would have been about 31. 15s. and for a whole year at least the Exchanges were favourable, and g old was below the Mint price. The great mischief was, that the public would not read the Report ; tier, he bed himself heart! rate) , say, that they did not, want to read it. in fact, most men had made up their minds on the ,subject, and would not alter their preconceived opitiioes. It, however, he bed soCcei,ded in showing how small the difference was between the establishsd. stamierd aunt die Miot regulations, a great pin of tie difficulty was done away with. The deeit a lof the•CorMnitde was to effect the object in Inc most gradual - way—in short, to do it to as to .o). viate, if possilde, all the diftctilties and onj ec i lions. Whatever Might he the objections--81_1( h e was far from denying that there were som e ow i . jections—the plan itself was one which came tn° st .. near to the principles which had prevailed wi. their Lordships, arid which was calculated el bring about the Change in the most gr adua l way. It was expressly stated in the Report , l i t ia - "' the great evil to be avoided was a rapi d i crease of the Bank issues—that the grea test e vi „, would be a forced and precipitate c ontracti ° 7 of these issues." - In conformity with this Opt nion it was a great object of the Frnrsett plan to proceed gradually. It was 11°t commence till Februilry, and would not be liu t ",: l er completed for four years. Even those. w°.• were most hostile to the plan, must adl that contracting the issues of the Bank won" ten , to lower the price of gold. But the great q ue l lion was as to the inconvenience which this w ont'' '. produce. Some thought there would be II" ii "; con%euience if, the operation was not forced. ' to m his own part, he trever could understawl lln tv doubt could be entertained on the subject ; f . ( l r" wag unquestionable that as .the amoun t of the 1 9 i sire of paper was•decreased pro Canto, the via' . it %% mild be - inereased An examp!e won'd 111 " 9• crate this. , the-last year the Bauk refac ed I( issnes by 4.000,0001. ; and there was 1w increas° in the issue of the country.minka. lan,„,tote to that year" there %ra'S a decrease on the yr"! ttroount t f 01. e-circulating, tnerh,4m in the country" e s' And yet,, withstanding this decrease, the changes became more untarourable, .and pr ice i ofa gold rose. This, however," was in explained- by the effect prOduced on the oi ( ": e ,: r ; ntatket by the pecuniary transactions of fetrog - Governtrients. •The Noble Lord (brier, Laude r' date) . , however, co iii ended the all this might 71 obviated by a still greater diminution of tile' is sues. With regard to this, however, it W as — be considered that when the ixounteracing eV is h eg went to a certain- height; any diminution 01 t ,: 6 paper circulation produced an intolerable convenience. But, oa the whole, he did oa f think that there would be any differen ce ()pillion 'as to the - proposi , iou that 0 re l . . due- 60 n of the circ ul ating medium increase.' the value of what remained in circulat ioof He wntilifnow proceed to consider the meri ts r ! f ~, the pr,,posed plan. Its fi rst advantage arose foh"; its gradual operation. If the Bank' was t° tl , tailed 'upon to pay in specie at a given Pe t ' 6 4 time must be given' to pi epare for so import'i ti , measure. At she same time he must confess oie own opinion, that if • the Bank were to resnr ° o Cash payments to-morrow, there would he considerable dcmarrd upon them for . gold ei" it ; But no Mal). would deny, that if the ,Bank ‘v • required to pay in cash so soon, they ought 10 ir% prepared with the means of paying in COlth coin was demanded. The first positive ad" n : t!ige of this plan was, that the Bank cou ld ref - sunte cash payments with a much smaller aol°" " t , of specie. tinder its operation . , all demand t° specie, arising from fancy, from . Caprice, fron t i' i t ; ternal alarms, would be prevented i and the demand would be for the purpose of ptofit. ° long therefore as bullio n w as beloo the mi t - price, and as long as , exchanges were ftrv"" b a -e l-: there was nothing to tea r . Ti le next grey vantage of t!he plan teas, t eiple Cleat ~'as dune fait, hat t l i t t Vi b t ti r i e te7.4P l iiiti : *- ing any principl e o f d eprec i at i on. It t"'": this principle--" We will begin a a r7i7s: i t i! i t•ilde the evil ; 11 . reiarci li we will tint put on opening the Batik till sweet; lure and indefinite petiod when we . shall ' l3 plenty of .00111 ; sltall begin now , 151, " 1 , P fr the market. price. Of gold as it now s tands , bu t lowing the evil to proceed no farther, 0 enabling the Bank to work its own ( 4 , ,t4 1 complete retorn to cash payments." T his 0 (1 , the system of the whole plao. lie mit•tnat it -occurred to whether tbe V er di, was not put .too tar back. . It might bc 5 0 .4 it we were tie bet in =t the - market price , ~,e4 not hi-gin at the earliest period. This s e it port-, but there was a - good reason wit,/ be •Should not, be done, and why there sly""`. i tio sutras Astray. The debt due by Goveromen t Boik mu.; be r e paid, and this w o u ld require stiod delay. And here it. was to be observer', t hat t i e question stood on. rather strange ground* , ° pall' tweet) the Government, the Bank, and t he lic. It the prevailing opinion in London w i ' S c : 7 CS O suited, eilted, it would be found that the afe't lousy prevailed on this subject of the rel l °Y i" ti by Government of the advances made to the Bank. Arid he Must admit, that if t" i 'a bd sent system were to be contineed there /" 111 0 4 . d sonic tounation .for this objection. Bo i t t ( 1 0 10 his firm opinion, that every merchant in 1-1 op would prefer a circulation at once fou nder cir ri Government security, to. having the state c i ft o enlation depend wholly on the judgment °owl Bank. He must conftss that the advances oestet Bank to Government had extended toy g r 'amount than ever was intended. As to th 9 e ti 00• of the exchanges, as ativcted by the ciren la tr as - the-greatest latitudinarians on this s ubjec t h ie/ idmit the exchanges would become favn nr9 l,o o even if the•B,iok 'circulation of paper continnet`od Hall as it now .Vras. He did ,not-believe th„ s oe. alr.rin of tt - grest - Hud sudden reduction in the t ' the of ;he BAIA wiss foonded.. At any " le a' '11; Whole objtct.of this plan was to give the d itts„ an oppoetonity- of purchasing bullion , an . , firmly ' believed that no sudden reduct.°"o/. the' Bank issues was now in . cuntemPlB":ocfl He had already' noticed the. advan'ege s IV the existing system gave the c outall 5 in time of wilt% it had ,al,O its 84Ivantag e „ r d• the time of peace, by the facilities Which it tr pw ed comfit , lee--facilities which merchants wOOO nu douht be sorry to lose : and which b e lo de( ndnrir never could' exist to the saute extent . 1 0 01 already l u r y ra nurse e s el y l s , t , e d i v n e . rte l d ts to e . lfec o ts t us , : , u: e t , i t i t- i i i i l 3 llbl io lc sl l , „.„ I -most remarkable—that io times ---- 11 , ace !- distress, 'the, Bank was no! obliged tt , " so ot" issues, Tiis Ns' a 8 mentioned as a gre, t Was (age, but it was merely' fallacious. It, e ffect' onoatural state of things producing 0 0 1 , jo ie • that when the country was really disttes' et ' al° peat ed not to be distressed,—that Ir 11,n it 0‘ poor, money was as ahundant as ever. , f irr mot be supposed, however, that the par r 5 1 e s d 0 11# even in its most beneficial opet ation, prudu ' I • l io , cht tl t ,