The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-22 00:00:00

if j,OO es, alid to ob" f :' , o ,, it bad Ibmit a ors, bat rece l s• forwatl had to Call. to Call !si, ) of (1 16 e to db:' 14ouse: ssembli w ere eir pa' , A, that, for tbe, It also, ne SO . ": lothing, hough 30thio4 )01i1 icat g ‘ ''''' lersl list rict , tight, if 12rtber among e itifiAme flotise! ,or bp le Lora . !d per. oerciYe I over" ffret io~o ly, e places might tlad II poses thew' y other glit :be l'e.• )hri of the pe" cacious rml, hi id wifh tent to of GO eri House 1 cotiv, %re re vity it' their 13 ci jeer t(P power .v ardf arts 0 ''as ai' ~l'fT£r' DI 4, e Aciteo 'gesteti yet t‘ Pe 'l_4 "conve" c ut ifg'. t cessf~ e ha:JO plus to he oe.. oril't 41st of IC sob .; of ci`i t i m tlis itrlei ; and II 00 thei lICII lOUlh i• 1,11 , 1 felt ticti°ll r i ere ro I bee ° Ea ) 0 tow • ge ne libiliti CO!r sus der, casting Wii s 4 t she 4 1 - 'o°‘ ►►rite' j froo gi( 6 col (`' )elie be f Ault i f mit le dif• of the rid e `' c o ol' of t lld Co J 4 • • 4 ;lerati.)n, anCI to if thi3 CO" 'Le afforded. 'admitting that severedistress existed in Lanarkshire, and some other parts of teotl an d, was of opinion, that that O ught to be borne in mind which had been very i fairly pointed out by the Govern Mint. In Eng• !and the Gentry contributed IZ'rgely from their tents to relieve the poor by assessments for Poors' ..ates before they came to. Parliament for telief. iEhis was not done in Scotland ',• and he thought propo'sition made by the Noble Lord at the ead of the Treasury exceedingly fair, as it Oflered ' l ‘ell ') , sum in advance to relieve their temporary prdvided the property of the country woald submit to the same assessment *Lich was tlommon in England. AIr.,W ILnErF o RcE explained. it J. MActufsvrosu thou g ht it a little unfair to ake the present appeal a goestio6 between Eng and and Scotland. The ks hole question was this— fliethei it Was fair to provide that those who had luffered Most from the policy of the conn , ry liottld be ht-!p in any way by those who had th e the least. He-opposed the doctrine of Vie Noble Lord, which had been stipporte ,l by Hon. Friend (Mr. Calcratl), that ScOdAnd could be entitled to no relief from England till Vie had submitted to be assessed to the Poor 4tates. to;d .said, had he understoosf•that Oefo re relief was to be afforded to S'coiland, no tler any 'circionstances, she must submit to the ` , or s, he would hove ()fi l mset; such +1 prin 'ille, fie understood no snch broad principle to 'nave been laid down, and if the question befote [louse had been made one between England Scots sod, it had not been made so by the -"sable Lott! (Castlereagh). Mr. PHILLIP; thotig , ,t what had now trans ipired furnished a strong argument for instituting 411 1 inquiry into the exiting diStress. Fouar.s -was of opinion, that the distress of country might to be relivVed either by a Par !larnentat y Grant or a voluntary subscript The petition, which was froth the Township of t lamilton and other places, Vva's tiler Lord A. HAMILTON conk an opporunity of ! l eclating, that every thing had been done that ,tnuld be done by the proprietors in Scottand : re lieve the poor. fie remind,d the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that 100,0001. had been granted in the last Session to build churches. He now .assets upon the Hight Hon. Gentleman to look et tir e present, petition, which stated that the poor 1 11 their neighbourhood could not go to church for 'rant of clothes, and alter that to consider, be •,°re the grant was appropriated, whether those " whose benefit it was intended would be likely 1 ° Profit by it. Mr. MArsEnor objected to a grant in favour of t he sufferers, as the principle once adopted in t heir case must be acted upon in every other. Why the Gentry there, who had been enriched by the Nonopoly of trade formerly enjoyed, should not now cover the distress complained of, was that Which he could not understand. 'lle petition was ordered to be printed. Lord A. Elamtt.ToN presented a iimilar petition from the lieritors of Rutherglen, which was read ilnd ordered to be printed. ROYAL BURGH' OF SCOTLAND. Lord A. flamtvros: then rose to malse his mo tion relative to the Scotch Burghs. He regretted the absence of a Noble Lord intimately acquainted Ivith the subject, but he did not _regret it as much 11 he othersvise should have reason to do, as he briderrood that Ministers did not mean to offer 1411 Y opposition to his motion. lie did not intend Io make. any alteration in the Committee, but wished it to - remain as it 'was constituted last ?ear, except with regard- to one individual, who tad slated that he could not attend. The Noble 'Lord then proceeded to say, - that the result of the I nquiry of 'last Session had been such as to con 6rus the statements which had been made of the t:ross and 'flagitious abuses which occurred in the Burghs of Scotlan&- , -the principle of self tiection which prevailed in those Burghs was the treat source of the evil. The Noble Lord then ; * ,intlicated himself' from the charge of seeking for 4 :ttliamentary Reform by the inquiry proposed. 41 e said, if any change in the Representation were In follow from it, it must be‘collaterally, and not directly. He staled, that three of the most pot. 'Mous towns in Scotland, namely—Edinburgh, Aberdeen. and Inverness—were in Ft , state of 4 ankruptcy, and outlet - sentence of disfranchise -11'"Il• He concluded by moving for the re-ap ?ointment of a Select Committee, to take into "nsideration the several petitions which bad been Presented to the House last Session, on the sub tet of the Royal Burghs, and to report to the loese t het eupon. DUNDAS denied that the towns specified.hy Ole Noble Lord were in a state of bankruptcy,‘lsnd "ntended against the probability of his being able !rt prove the extent of his charges relative to abuses ' 1 ) the Royal Burghs. Lord CASTLRREAGII said, that as there was no Al ifferenee of opinioo regarding the appointment 44 , f the .Committee, he hoped no difficulties would be started ; an d be assured the Noble Lord that ;H ere was on his side of the House every disposi 'lon to assist -in theingoiry. Mr. J. P. , GRANT , roc amidst ies of question, . 1 ;;Id said that th e Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr, 41 „ %Indus) had, by his own account, provesl that he •. 1 1 s got into a place where he ought not to be. Mr. FOTtBES argued to spew that Abet deen was ! ) °t in a bankrupt state. He said that it was pay 14g 4 per cent. on all its debts ; that it gave good s ecurity for what it now owed, anti that the ere• Aitor s would be very much disappointed if they W ere to he paid off.—(Much laughter.)—The ??on. Member then read an extract of a rep , irt r°lll a manufacturer and Magistrate to the Board °f Directors, in confirmation of his statements as to the flourishing s:ate of the trade and maaufac lures of the town of Abet deen. Lord A. HAMILTON Said, 'that it bad been star ad to the House that the inquiries entered into the Committee of last Session had cost the `louse 20001.; be wished to state that the ex- Pence amounied to but half that stint. the motion was then put and carried. CHELSEA PENSIONERS. Lord NUGENT rose to• move, pursuant to his "tice, for a Return of Alen liable to be struck uti ,• • - • • • -• • . the Chelsea 'Pension :41St, by the - 2rociamation of rile 28th of October, 1819, distinguishing those. who bad enlisted for seven yea'rs, utote`r the 46th of the King, and who, when the lime Of their ser vice expired, became 'entitled tinder that Act to a pension, in consideration of their wounds. The Noble Lord said, th;at his object in moving for Om's , - papers was, to move hit- leave to brit'eg in a Bill t., extend the provisionS of the Act of the 46th of the King to the Chelsea PenSionerS, who having been entitled to pensions, i'vere,itrider the proclamation, to be . deprived of them. The pro clamatiOn said, that if those persons did not coin ply With its direction, they would be deprived of their pensions ; but he could w e se e by wh a t r i g h t pe'rsons who had get ved the full period of time for Which they enlisted, should be deprived of their ,pensions. If a soldier, who entered the service for a limited time, should leave the service at its ex piration, could he be treated as a deserter ? cer tainly not ; and the case was prteiiely the same With the soldier who claimed his pension under the Act of the 46th of the King. He entered for a particular period, under the faith that when that time expired he might leave the service, and if he received a ,youtul, that he would be entitled to a pension. Th e Ac' w as plain,, anti the regulations founded On it could not admit of a different con struction. The Noble Lord said, that not only the Act, but the speeches made WI all sides of the lit ms , when the Bill was pending before them, gave it that constrtiction. The Noble Lord (Cas tlereagh) and t' , e Bight Gentteman,;he silent of the Board of Con . rol, gave the 13:11 the same coAstruction ; they opposed the Bill, oo the ground that it would deprive the Crown of the power to takeaway pension Sal pleasure, and tended to make soldiers independent of the Crown. Mr. Windham at time argued strongly that the faith of P,irliament was tile foundation of the service, end then once piolged that it ought to be kept lurid). late. Lithe Act bete was not a word to give power to the Cro,n to withdraw the pensions in case of the pensioner not. attending On fresh service, ex cepting.those pensioners who had enlisted for life, or for a term of years which Elan not expired. The Noble Lord said, it was not necessary for him to enlarge on time sacred duty of keeping in violate the public faith with soldiers ; it was a profession with which the point of honour should he most especially obsersvd, and with respect to which a departure from the principle of good faith might be attended with the most latal con sequences.—Tice wounded soldier had a high claim on the tenderness and gratitude of his country. He hoped the Noble Lord would not oppose the too ion- . -=-01, it he did so, that he was right in doing SO tinder the .law and the military regula tions, as well as by the debates which .took place when the law was passed. Lord l'aLmaksTost said, he had no hesitation to say, that the late orders which had been issoed wet e' borne out by the military regulations. The Bill of Mr, Windham gavt certain pensions, sob ittt, however, to the subsequent regulations of the Crown. The soldier, subject to those regu lations, bad a legal right to his pension, but not an indefeasible right. The third section was the one on which the question turned ; that section stated, that every soldier should be entitled to his discharge at the expireizion of his service, subject to the regulations of Majesty, leaving the King the power to fix the time, and the nature of the wounds which would entitle an individual to a pension. Before the Act no man could receive his pension, vvbatetree might be his claims, unless lie produced the recommendation of his Commanding Officer. The object of Mr. Windhant's Act was to do away the necessity of that recommendation, and to make the claim of the soldier sufficient, inde pendent of the recommendation of his C. , mmande lug Officer. It remained to the Crown to de cide what period of service might entitle the sol dier to his pension, what rate of pension be should receive, and on what terms the pension should be held. 'r be authority of Mr. Windhatn went to prove that the . Bill did not intend to give to the soldier an indefeasible right to his pension. The regulations which were drawn up in the Octo ber following, by Gen. Fitzpatrick, did not put it in that point of -view. Li ere the Noble Lord entered at some length into the military regu lations, front which lie argued!, that the pen sioner was bound to serve the full three periods, amounting to twenty-one years ; at d thA it was clear, if lie refused to serve when called on, he forfeited his pension. Such, he said, was the clear meaning of the military 'regniatityn3. It was, lie said, peeposteroos to suppose, that able men in the prime of life, receiving pensions, should not be liabie to serve their country when called" on ; end as for those who received pen sions on the ground of services, they bad no claim on the gratitude of the country ; with respect to them, it was a case of bargain and sale. There were 75,000 out-pensioners, many of whom were not fit for service, but many of them were ; and it was too monstrous to be maintained, thlt they who were supported by the. resources of the :ornery should not be liable to service. tie said that similar Proclamations were wade in 18)9 and 1813, and no -notice was taken of them. He . was sorry that the question was then raised by the Noble Lord, because at present there was enough to agitate the public mind. [Here a Message from - the Lords %vas announced. The Message .informed the House, that their Lord ships had agreed to the amendments mdde by the Commons to the Misdemeanours Bill, and to the COtron Factory Bill, and had passed the Seditious Meetings Bill with certain amendments ; to which they desired the concurrence of the House.] 'flue Message having been read, the debate was resumed. Lord ALTHORP contended, that the Crown had no right to call on a man to serve, or to give up his pension, who had completed the period, whe the' of seven, foutteen, or t‘venty.one years, for which he had enlisted. But even were there any doubt on the subject, lie maintained that that doubt ought to be interprt•eted in favour of the soldier. Mr. C. LoNG argued at considerable length in support of the opinions of his Noble Friend (Lord Palute►ston), and opposed the n►o;ion, as calcu lated to make an injurious impression on the pub lic mind. nr. J. P. GRANT adverted to tite Act and the regulations Int:tutted thereon, and maintained that the words " ‘COmpleted their period of service " referred, not to the completiOn of the a, three lnll pe'riods of service, hut merel . y to the contpletitil, Of the period of service, whether of Sei , en; of fourteen, or of twenty-one yers, for whieli the soldier had enlisted. Nit. CALCRAFT WaS very much inclined tc t)e of the same opinion, althong,h he admitted that he entertained greater doubts wish respect 16 the precise meaning of the ‘vords of the Act,, than when he came down if; the Fionse, and be Much regrerlcd that tiwy were not more intel lible.—The Motion was then negatived wiihOnt . , , sEurnous NIEETI 2 2';GS BILL. On the Motion of Lord C;kSTLER . EAGI-, it ' was ottlered that the Lords' At tendments on the Se ditious Meetings Bill should be taken into cO'nsi deration Co-morrow. NEWSPAPER. ST; .MPS BILL. Lord PALMS ASTON brolight up the RepOrt on the New . ipaper Stamps BM: Mr. Beßs AL Made some 'objection to the dis cussion of the Measure, until the in its amendcd state; had been in the heincls Of those Concerned in it, for a Hi tie conshietation, Lord CASTLEREAGH said; it could not be in their hands till the rtWas ) r=.; o_Ctl‘e( . M DENN'IAN had understood last night that time would be allowed, The Repoit %eas received, and on the titotion that the a.i.endn►ehts be read, MU. DE iVMAN suggested that the measnre could not be fairly discussed till the Bill in its present form was printed, and an ripportunity given to the booksellers and whets to consider Of its provisions. Lord CAsTLF.P.EAGn replied; that the Bill would be printed, and the few nt!tv ptrivisiOns which it contained might be ,fully discussed On the third reading. This was agree Able to the practiee of the House, and not the method prop6Sed by the Hon. Gen'tleman. Mr. Pandaostr. took this opportunity to di - se6S those principles which Gentlemen opposite scent ed so unwilling to discuss. Ile considered the measure to be of vital importance, as affecting the, real practical interests of the Country, and the real practical principles of the Constitution. It must he supported either On the ground that the freedom of the press enjoyed since the Revolu tion tads of a dangerous nature, which he was prepared to deny, or that the character of the people had undergone such a change as to make that dangerous now whieh was not dangerous h eretofore, a proposition which he was also ready to combat. aloidgnient, he contended, was necessary on either ground ; and if the House looked to our history, they would find that whenever restraints were laid on the freedoM of the press (as in the time of the Stuarts, Charles 1. and James 1 I ) re volutions and great evils were the result. To him it appeared that the press, instead of being, as it had been represented to be, a means to inflame the public mind, was the means of preventing popular commotion. And besides, politic opinion, as ex pressed through the press and by public meetings, was the grand check by which all that was practi cally good in the Constitutional machine (how ever defective its theory might be) was regu lated. He could therefore never consent but that the press should be open, very open, to keep public men, and even Court's of Justice, to the pure performance. of their duties.— `(Lau - stater, nod eties of Ileac, hear !)—The Free dom of the Press was wisp a great preservative of private property, and upon every ground he was unwilling to place it ander these.heavy restric tions, which, in his opinion, :As effectually changed the Constitution, as if the Commons House was taken out of it.—(A laugh.)—lle furiher con tended, that if the Press were pm down, the ef fect would be !evolution, or what was still worse, arbitrary power. He also obieFted to that par ticular clause of the Bill, which provided, that all prosecutions for publishing without haviog en tered into a recognizance, should be instituted in the name of the Attorney-Genera! ; which lie as serted was to put the censorship of the press tin der. !mother name in the hands of an Officer of Government. Mr. It. MARTIN said, he would not det,iin the House so long as the Hon Gentleman who had lust spoken.—(A laugh !)—particulatlyas after the succession in dramatic order, which he had wit nessed among the Honourable Gentlemen on the Opposition side last night, he had been persuaded that they were inclined to saucer these measures to pass without further obstruction.—(A laugh.) The Honourable Gentleman then referred to a let ter from Ireland in his possession, which gave an account of emissaries from England who were at tempting "to organize the western populatiou of that country.—(Hear, bear, hear !)—This tact alone was sufficient to authorize the present measures and their speedy enactment. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Primrose) said, he would allow the utmost latitude to writings by the press because he wished to prevent a re sort to physical force ; but he conceived that no thing could be more absurd than this argument, for it the people were told the same fasehood ten times over, however gross and improbable it was, they would believe` it. And this was the source of much of the evil that was abroad ; yet the Hon. Gentleman would encourage and sanction it by a speech an hour and a halt long, not much to the edification of -the House.—(Latighin:z.)— Again noticing the dramatic order in which tl►e Opposition had marched out last night, when a motion was made to reduce the amount of win ters' securities, lie inferred, that as the Honour able Genileintro world not stay to support %chat was a di►ninu►ion of that which they declared to he an evil (because it did not come from their own side of the House), it was their wisi► that the Bill should go forth to the country in as dis gusting a shape as all the obloquy they threw upon it could excite; The Amendments were read and agreed to. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL proposed a new clause, making it imperative on publishers, under a pen..lty of 1001., to furnish a copy to the 'Stamp-office, &c. This clause was passed thron;;11 a Committee, and added to the Bill; the third reading of which was arpointed for to-morrow. BLASPHEMOUS* LIBELS. Lord CASTLaREAG It woven the Order of the Day tor the second rcadinid of the Ill,spbehibus Libeii, . 1.41) . r4 EBRINGTON ‘ visited delq, ri. the puttpf,se of nhitiiat'ely geteing 'rid of the lilll riltn;;e her, Wilit this view moved, ai an amendment, that instead of the second reading the words " fifteenth of Prbruttry"s 11 . 011111 lie inlered. Tl►e tiouse vas about to diiride on this amend.. n►ent, when, •.. , • Colonel D A is rose; anti eiPreised bps stirpriSe at the extraordinary conduct of Ministers, in Tint deliNing this question. He accused Ministers of decency niipralleled iii Parliatnen tar„ y history, in not ansVvering the at; uinents of heir OpPolient s-- (La ng liter l)---add ti imindud ut theist to show, for thdr own salie, that the exist ing laws ‘'vere not of which, if they did, their propositions WOuld be 'received viith general aPplanse instead of abliorienee. I\ll.. 111oisitrt- said, he should must coliliallY give hiS vote for the second reading of the Bill, con sidering it calculated to protect the liberty against the licentiousness of the Press. lie coulil not help eipress i ng hiS hope that this this hot the last of the Measnres so irtrperionsly required for stcm thing 'tide of it religion and blasphemy. It had been - remarked by a diipatAionate observer of passing ocCutrenteS, that one of the most flight:- tul teatilies Of the present times was, that de:- mentary sidlooli had been formed, Where chil dren [night with the indithenta of learning lie taught lessnnS of sedition and blasphemy.—(Critii of " Name, natne," Iron; the Opposition benches.) avimadverted iu v(ry severe language oh( the eitistenee, th'st Condettt, and the 'const cprenees of Sunday neeespaPerS. A Pet ii ion had been pre sented to the House by himself, signed by 70 flutist tesP'eetable newi•vcnilerS, again St. the Sure of Smiday papet, describing them in various in stances as disloyal, seditious, and profane: Mr. W. Smirn Worild agree wi:h the Hori. Gentleman, if the case he had staked were proved ; but he entirely Joutited the truth of 11e va g ue al legation§ reSpec'ting the schwds for the dissemina• lion Of seditiOn aad blasphemy. His creed was, that Christianity, however, did not need the sup port of the Civil Po,ver, and he ryas satisfied that there would be no danger to our Religion if all the Statutes seemingly for i:s protection were re pealed. It they had been acted 'upon 10 Ike lette'r, Christianity would not now exist in this Cottony. From whet had falien Isom an Hon. Member last night, it W•buld seem th it the extent to which education had been carried in this Country rather a citennistanpe of reprobation to het Ilan of approbJtion. He had risen principally kir the purpose of saying that all 'the 11611. Gentletnan opposite (\lr. 'Atom y) hail advanced on the sub ject of seditious and blasphemous publications, was unfounded in fact. Mr. Mosey repelled the assertion of tl►e ti n. Member respecting what he had advanced. lie had, in his :Teed!, reterred to the papers On the table, in which testimony, on oath, was n'ff,..retl to be produced to the diect of what wa's•stated oti that subject. Air. WILLIAM SM TII explAiried. Strangets t‘ere about to tvithdraw, iu mice of the order of the House, %viler) Mr J. I'. GRANT rose for the put pose of im pressing- the independent Members of the Muses with a due sense of the importa , tue of the Bill at present before it ; and with the indecent histe with whit It a measure involving such vital in terests to the country was alleinp•ed to he ps•seth. This, he trusted, would have its weight %%itit thefts in the votes they .were about to deliver or' the amendment of his Noble Frictid. "ItERNIEY rose amidst cries of question There was no man more desirous [hart lie was not to cause auy unnecessary delay in the husiu ss of the (louse, and he was sure the Noble Lord. (Castlereagh) would do hint the itis;ice to say, that he hail shown no wish incompatible with the duties of hi• sitnation in that House, to imp( de the coure of the Noble Lord during the present Session. Out his conscience, however, he could say, that it did not appear to him that the present Bill wasof that pressing nature as to requilethe dispatcls which was practised in passing it through the (louse. So 1110C11 30 Was be con%iuced, that he was induced to" relitest of the Noble Cientleman to grant a delay its pressing-it through its fetal stage till after the recess, or even to call Parliament to gether during the recess for that purpose. lie saw the Noble Lord was about to give him a re fusal, b ut th a t would not at all astonish him after the line of conduct pursued by hint that evening. Ile knew that by dividing the House on this ques tion he was about to lose time; but he did think that he should not be performing his duly as he was bound to do, it he took any other course. Before he sat down, he must implore Gentlemen in all parts of the Iloasse, not to give up their minds to a blind acquiescence in this measure, merely because it came from the Treasury Bench. --(Year', hear, hear!) Lord CASTLEREA•GH protested against the pro ceeding of the ltight Lion. °cuticula') and his Hon. Colleagues, in calling upon his Alajesty•-; Ministers to make speeches upon all occasions, its order to give Gentlemen on the other side of the [louse HIS opportunity of replying to them. He certainly thought that he had sufficiently entered into the tinesnion before the House on a former occasion, when he mentioned his intention of pro posing an alteration of the punishment of trans portation to banishment. In the Illed3llfC had bee:, rut that eompl cared nature . as to requite an exposi tion of it, it: each of its stages, he certainly should not have shrunk trom the task which ‘voald have fallen to his lot, to have made such eelaircis3e ments. But this Bill was not one of any extent of detail ; it was merely one of principle ; and he really thought that as it was before the House, it was rather the duty of Gentlemen on the other side to start their objections to it, it they hat any. Th e y had not thought fit :o make any opposition to in on the occasion he alluded to, as having opened i! to their attention ; and with such n phalanx as he saw before hits , he certainly had expected they would have made a display of their objections. Bit he thought it was really too much to call upon him to get tip and ills at what he had lot merly said ; for as tie had inc as vet heard any arguments against the Bid, he could only repeat. if Gentlemen thought proper to state their objections, he could as sure them that they would not go uttanswervd: