The Sun. — London, England, 1819-03-19 00:00:00

:liev a ►e►►e' nt Id tigb! , r el was ,i e ct ,ngt • 019 fore Wa s Oil ion s jec*, [ orc ilia ~ee~ g ists s he 31 11 ", ) ,110 )e3t (be 5 of e~ 1 0 °l' I. 37. i o f 130: ,icil bil ;~~~ WO' 1) c)t Old esC 'CV I a if/ cry i ki jet >l 5l !s" ,rie in' elf ; s • . nt anti he hrepel th a that l7,e "loose, iron) its I- I ""ance, would forg e t that it was an iimdividual w So unimportant mis hims e lf w h o b roug h t i t for , ard. The gneition h a d b een di scusse d i n t h e last Parlianeeit. When he recollected the result. of the lest discussion of it, that the voice sod 4)Piiii" of th e Ilonse, suppo r t e d as it h a d b een by a numerous minority —echoed as it iVaS by Public opinion, from one end of the kingdom to th e Oilier, he certainly did hope, that it wool& : 1 1re had at least the t:flect of indocin , 4. his . Ma-' jesty's Ministers to act with so much grace as to iefrain from filling op any vacancy that might becur, till the opinion of the House It as hid bport the subject. Affect, But it ha d d prouced ?Mei) no There had been a precipitancy, not to ay an indelicacy, in hurrying the aepuitoment : f an FlOnoural.ile Bar onet (Si r G eor e m Clerk) to / "PPIY the late vacancy, pending the notice which iiad give n of his intention to brim,; forward question. With whatever coefinence i tl , isters ,might look to the d ec i s i on o f t h e bl ouse, wcutd at least have 'been but a proper respect itS opinion to have refrained from filling up the vac ancy t in the question was discussed and 'de eirled The last time that this motion was in-might forward, time Noble Lord opposite had resisted it !oecessfully, by statin g that it was a question to a e decided by the Finance Cmumittee then sit ling• For himself he was one of those so•much ha; to the goo d old customs Of the House, . 114 t he could not approve of the new plan of ill '"vinc: the re s p oes ibili ty o f every quest i on ott ' t i le 86 111 , 1..1.s of- a Committee. But in par •:ll.l4l,ibtlr ease what had happened by following. the . L . orti's advice. and 'caving the question to of the Commir tee? He must refer . ‘iottse to the Report of that Committee. It !. ' "as curiou s to observe the difference of the opi- Notts exPressed by the Noble Lords in the -ose and in the Committee. In the month of the R lo eport made . its appearance, mind upon s ubject it st a t e d t h e op i n i on o f the.Coruittee I t hese . ne words The number and salary of the 4- ,, 'd "0 the Admiralty seems removed from the '.t."hsitieration of your Committee, by the late de iHiOil of the House." Dols time Noble Lord got illlieTionse to v ote aga i nst t i me mot i on , b y sa yi ug ~I '' tthject ..yoold he (trebled by the Committee, i-Ih.eg, n he made th e Committee p a ss it over, by te," them it h a d b een d ec id e d by the House.— Iv als "r"Ple was enough to show how much weight • til '4; du e t o the Report of that Committee, if it s . should be gnoied against his motion tins It tespectabilt•y of character %vas any bar l ate 4the . proceedings of Government Mu filling imp the (Iheaney, he was free to confess that the in 111'1'1'11 whom they had appointed, had merit t l x - ":" - ti to mike an exception to the role, if any were admissible. But itwas riot the to a Cie r qa! CM" justVy the appointment ; the ki,: 4 ""e was as to the necessi•y of the office.— t o °loch fur the Report of the last Finance L i n iitee. B u t t h ere was anot h er C omm ittee tai l t ` i kid inquired into this subject, and he - the 'Wet to its report. The Committee on itt'iLtd4c lie;,entliture in 1797 had noticed it ei e retr 1.ti.1,0,t. Of that committee be might Sfte,,.Y say, that it was as much entitled to the re timrn-tsand con,j(leration' o f t h e H ouse as any one Int t ,„" t " ever been appointed. The late Speaker, 0414"tti C o l c h ester , was a M em b er o f i t ; Si r 41, 1 4 Y Ryder, now L or d Harrowby, was another kei - " 7 ,,,er of it ; Mr. Henry Thornton was another, Charles Yorke was also a Member of it. 1 4; C "itmtnittee, in their report, stated aS .fol ole,-,:"'" Your Committee think it their duty to itlV4'‘ .e / that th e number of th e Commissioners tl,4:leA d aiiraltv is six, and that it has been found present state of the public service no Itu could be made," Timis part of the Re s;':.-1411"ded to an impmiry which had been ill-• 11 1 1 , n t " into !he nature and extent of the duties s4e - ; ; t ° be p e t formed by t ite Lords of the I. l; i r' '; r l 4l 'Y. the country being then at war. ,t ot tit Rep ort went o n— ,, Your Committee, 111,; . ,ers think it worthy of consideration, tvhe- D9vnjti the time of peace, lay reductions in the tti k i f orce, tool in varians departments connect to -4 t he Ihavll service, the duticb will not be 11,4)?ell d iminished, as to allow of some reduc , e t , w l " the number of° the Lords Commissioners, 1 1 } " e lltly with the public service." One part i twe 'e re commendarion of this Committee had, r ,e !' b een pretty well attended to, by reducing ft,llit.,-ierks o f the Admiralty. They were reduced I), e ri t t about 50 or 60 to about 30. There had 11,e,111;° eo esideration or hesitation i't discharging to be "Idividnals. But when the question came ~ tiout reducing any of the Lords of the Ad, `,einti nitY/ tha t was treated quite in a different way Ilt 'Th e w ? Because it touched their patrona i ge. •e as, that for the very sante reason t iat 1 :.() (4 ks had been reduced, some ot the Lords t ettl,' s sioner s s h ou l d b e a l so removed. The tio et : l ' was the Baffle for both—there was a re ;list t i ,'"f the b us i ness. I t cou l d not b e den i e d L''ete was now l ess b us i ness titan there ti le "eels during t h e war. A s a proof of it, 14 33' tuber o f d ays for tran,qseting public busi- Atka "I s m or, as th e y are. called, Board Days, leduced fro five d aes i n t h e wee k to t h ree . 11,4„ so eiune wa s proo f enoueh that there was not St much bu s i ness. [low indeed could there tlou fil ch, considering the extent of reductions k r t: r nav a l force ? The number of men voted 4lee till t h e end of the th.. l " Navy iii 1 707 was 120,000, an d f rom war, never less than from 4e,...:° 0 0 to 170,000., .and the number of ships in l3tab‘imiissislimo%nt 7arslretstsiutcheaontelooo. At present the 'r1 20,000 men and 130 oi !! of war (including all classes) in commis .) " Yet with these enormous reductions, the sb.er oithe LordS of the Admiralty remained th„ i dr " as during the war. It was plaits that . tat the War there must have been too few to the business, or that t het e were now too a iry' He ratb • I ._ 4 lt h r : reel, t ion stuiru: ICNl"kit v f y a , " and t with g triel ce e d x t tell:art of inari t %me con which should place its whole 111511-sit,),:ecereil,im.m.nee On its naval force, should reduce there tl "w its efficient number. At the same anothe, 3 , „ :. t as evidently a preference given to • too howeVer great its merits, '''ent• I t "Y favorite of the Govero migtu jt. t "wild stn'detilv break out, it b - "tun) J ► •ety (11 :FIckAi to collect the great 44avy, citric be r, trited to man our ltd wa d Ito such obit ciiuu to ikAILIC• i0 . , 2: the number of Lords of the Admiralty during reace. If any of them were reduced, and a re tiewal of war should make it necessary to increase their number to its present amount, it would be easy to collect them. Lords 'of the Admiralty were more easily found ttoot seamen ; awl . when wanted, the Ministry had only to hold up their hands, and they would find plenty to ac cept the office. In one branch of the service there had been a reduction %Ti l lie', he could not think of without regret, s o t account of the in terests of morality and religion, about which so touch was said in these days. A regulation:. had hcen made (which it was understood would he strictly attended to), that if any vacancy should occur in - the office of Chaplain at ally of the three great naval stitions, it should be filled tip front the list of Chaplains already in the naval service. Yet in the case of Ports mouth, he believed, there had been an ex ception to tile rule. It his information was correct, au individual had been appointed to the : office •of Chaplain on that station not from the list of Chaplains of the Navy. If he were to look for the cause of the appointment of the individual, to whom he alluded, it .would probably be found in the rcsuit of the election for the Bormigh of Portsmouth, to the interest of the iodividtial in' that Borough, end to his political opinions. He . was : glad to see one of the Lords of•the Adthiraity -now come into the House. That individual would probably be .able to inform them of the course of political education gone through by the junior *Lords ofahe Admiralty, .which.bad been described as so instructive, and so 'important to the State. But he trusted that that Hon. Member, and the other Members of that Board, would confine them-. selves.to.giving information to the House, and that • they would observe the .usual course pursued by those whose personal interests were involved in the decision of the House, and refrain from voting in favour of themselves. Jut the reign of Henry the Eighth, a Board had first been appointed to take charge of the .affairs of the Navy, and from that appointment originated the Board of Admiralty as now constituted. But from that time till the pre sent, there were various instances in which the Lords of the Admiralty had beet) fewer in number • than six. He would state these instances, .and was sure they were correct. In 1702 the number .. of Commissioners under Prince George was only four ;•which was the number kept up till 1706. — Under Lord Hawke the number was the same. In 1715 there were only five. In 1717 only fire. Its 1775 only five, under Lord Sandwich. In the year 1789, under the Earl of Chatham, there were six, but in November in that year Sir F. Drake, one of the Lords of . the Admiralty, died, and the vacancy occasioned by his death was nut filed up till November 1790. So that even at so late a period the whole establish ment for a whole year was only five. On a for mer occasion, when he had stated this, he bad been replied to by the Honourable Secretary for the Admiralty, who had stated that it appeared from all the records in the Admiralty,,that the bum voted for the Lords Commissioners' salaries had never been diminished. 'lo that he could only answer, that 03 examining, the Journals of the House, he had not been able to discover what sum in particular had been voted in any one year for their salaries, as it seemed always to be in cluded under the general head of Contingencies. ate objection which had formerly been made to any reduction in their number was, ' that by their Commissions it was required that there should be the signature of " three or more" of the Lords. But that objection could easily he removed by an address to the Prince Regent, praying to alter that formula, by requiring the signature of only " two or more." Another objection was, that unless the present Members were continued, it would lie impossible to have Boards at the Out-ports. But' he contended, that during peace, such Boards were not necessary If they were, it was ridi colons to suppose that Lay Lords, who knew no thing of naval affairs—who did not know a 74 from--he was going to say, from a mail coach— (Laughter)—were fir to conduct the business of such Boards. In the present state of the service, he thought it quite sufficient to have three Sea Lords an 4 one Lay Lord of the Admiralty. On the grounds which he had stated, and considering the burdened state of the country, and that the House was pledged to ecohomy, he moved the following Resolution :—" That an humble Ad dress be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, to represent to his , Royal High-. 1 ness that his Majesty's faithful' Commons being desirous that all such measures of economy should be adopted as were consistent with the security of the country, humbly prayed his Royal High- Deli to giVe directions to reduce the Lords of the Admiralty to such a number as the exigency of the country required." _ Sir GROROR COCKBURN begged the indulgence of the House, as he rose to answer the personal attack of the Hon. Baronet who bad just spoken. Sir M. W. Ridley rose to order. He disavowed i l any intention of attacking the gallant Admiral personally. Sir Geo. CoCKBURN apologized. He certainly I thought that the Hon. BarOnet did allude to hitn personally in what be bad said relative to the ap pointment of the Chaplain at Portsmouth ; and thinking so, he was desirous of answerib:: it ; and he wished, with the permission of the House, to he allowed to reply to what he conceived to he an attack. (Hear, hear !)—Whenever his con duct was elestioned, whether in that House or out of that House, all that he would wish for was an opportunity to defend himself.—(Hear, hear, bets'!)—The appointment which had been men tioned was made in the regular course of promo tion, and not for any electioneering purpose, as had been asserted. At the three great sta tions, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Chatham, it had been long since. arranged that, if any vacancy occurred in the office of Chaplain, it should be filled up front those employed in the service in their regular turn. When this vacancy occurred, a letter was written to the Board to know who was first on the list. Answer ova;, sent up that Mr. Cuthbert was the first ; and he was accordingly appointed pursuant to the re g nlution. Now, be would poi it to the House to say, whether the circumstance of. that Gentleman's being an inhabitant of Portsmouth, or connected , . with that place, should deprive hiM of an appoint meet which fell to him in the usual course of the service ?=--(Heai, heter,l) 7 . --Was he to he deprived of it because he (Sir (. Cockburn) happened to be Member fOr that place—an honour of which he was prond.—(Hear, hear !)—As to ,the main question, the grOunds on which the Honourable Baronet had called upon the Horne to agree to this reduction were mis-stated, if not miarepre sewed, so far as related to the extent of the duties. The ruimber of ships now in commission was correctly stated to be 120. These were tint, as during the War, confined to ten or twelve regular stations, each of which was under the immediate command of one Admiral, who alone directly cor responded will] the Adm i ralty. They were eow, scattered over the whole face of the globe, and . the commander of alnuist every individual shift had now to correspond directly with the Ad miralty. There was another circumstance which much increased the business of the Admiralty at' this time. Doting the peace, when so many rifficers were out of employment, there were cue tinual applications and memorials coming from them, stating their claims to be employed. All these were addressed to the Achnirelty—were, to be considered and answered. Besides this, there was another cause of business being in creased in peace which did not wear dining the war. While the war lasted,many Officers, having' their whole minds turned to the naval service, had their whole thoughts so completely 'directed that way, that during pence the impulse coil tinned to make them devote their attention to devising means for improving that service, and they were continually seeding to the Admiralty the plaits which they devised for that purpose—some for improving the hulls of ships—some the masts — some the rigging —some as to astronomy—and, in short, on all subjects connected with the Navy. All these were to be examined and decided on ; for though many of them turned out to be such as could not be adopted, it would not be said that they ought to be indiscriminately rejected. All persons who had been at sea like him self, must find that they would be unable to get through the business of the Admiralty, without the assistance of men of different habits. Much and constantly as heendeavonred to discharge his duty, he found, that without the assistance of the Lay. Lords, it would be impossible to get on. It was to be recollected that the Admiralty hail the charge of the maritime concerns of a great. country, on which nice and difficult subjects oc curred. It was well known that two men of one profession could hardly ever be found to agree in their opinions—(Laughter )—That was as true in the naval profession as any other, and this the Hon. Admiral, on the other side, whom he saw now looking at hint, knew vet y well—(Laugh ter.)—For that very reason it was impossible to dispense with Boards. at the outports. Two of ficers had been sent some time since to Milford Haven, and they completely differed in opinion on a subject of importance. He would ask the lion. Baronet, who called these Boards useless,• what ivas to have been done its such a case, without a Board to decide between them ? If there had been no Board, the business must have been at a stand. The fact was, that with their utmost endeavours they could hardly get through the business.— Since his own appointment, he had not been able to spare halt an hour even to take ,a _walk. To he sure the Lay Lords had not been kept so hard at it.—(Latighter.)—But without their assistance they could not g et through the business. There were now three Lay Lords and three Sea Lords ; but if one out of each class was reduced, and only two left in each, then the old difficulty would occur ; and when there was a difference of opinion the business ,vould be at a stand, for there would be no majority to decide, tun! no thing could he done without a majority.—(Much laughter and cheering.) Sir Isaac COFFIN agreed to every word that bad been said by the gallant Admiral 'who spoke last, and he was sure that there could not be found Man more fit for the duties of a Lord of the Ad miralty than that gallant Officer and his friends, Sir H. Hotham and Sir B.Martin.—(Hear, hear !) But be would ask the Hon. Meniber if he could say that the Noble Lord (on whose retirement the late vacancy among the Lay Lords bad been filled up) had signed any paper (iring the whole time he held the office, except the receipts for his salary ?—(Hear,hear!)—He knew that there was ahnost more business to transact than the Sea Lords could go through ; but he contended that they derived no assistance ft out the Lay Lords.— The late Lord Flood had told him that the pres sure of business was so great, that he had been for six weeks at a time confined to the Admiralty without being able to stir out. And he knew that the gallant Admiral, and the other Sea Lords, were now overwhelmed with business, while the Lay Lords were riding about and enjoying, them , selves In idleness.—(Laughter) —He wished to see the mode of transacting business in the Admi ralty restored to what it had formerly been. Sir G. COCK BURN, in reply to the question of his Gallant Friend, replied that the Noble Lord, who lately retired, bad signed many other papers besides the receipts.for his salary, and had taken his regular turn.of business.—(Hear, bear !) Sir M. W. Rine:sY explained. Mr. CALCRAFT rose amid loud calls for the question, and spoke shortly for the motion, re peating and enforcing the arguments of the Hon. Baronet (Sir M. W. Ridley.) Mr. GRAHAM spoke in favour of the motion.— Probably by continuing such a number, Admi nistration wished to augment the ornamental and military part of•tbe Board. Let them, however, consider, when the people of this country were overburthened with Taxes, such an augmentation could not save their popularity, or satisfy even their friends, if the latter fairly reflected on the measure. Were those in power to make out a proper case to vindicate their conduct, he then should not find it his duty to support the motion. He thought that a Government might be tormcd on purer and better principles—formed more gene rally on popular opinion, than that which now con ducted public affairs : lie meant a Government less under the cant will of the Crown, and mote depend ent on private and, public worth : he did not, now ever,wish that the influence of the Crown should be so reduced as to be prejudicial to the dispatch of public Winless. In every view of the subject he kvOti7(l cheet folly support the motion of the Lion. Mr, CONITN. although in.len,•,ndoot, he said, in 11;3 (...ondnct, yet tho,, , '“ i duty ; on the piesent occasion, to supp,:rt the S, va,pts of !he Crown. Th , ..y I-airs:led thy plans of those illustrious predecessors in offic i :e had toiined such . arrangements as had mar dyr contribrited to' the glory of Oar arms both by sea and laud. It was therefore in cum b ent u p on hitt) to oppose the I 11101101). Lord J. l USSFLL !Nicole(' the application of the science (It as•rotionty to the junior Lords of the Admiralty. Without meaning any offence, he would venture to afliiln, that the Nol.!e Lord who had .. gone out of office possessed as profound a knoWledge of astronomy as the lion. airortet who had succeeded him. But, said some Gentlemen, it was neees•ary that those junior Lords should, besides a pet feet knowledge of astronomy, alSor be good ci , ilians— should be distinguished for their learnitig, so far as regarded the law of nations—ihotdd, in fact, have Pullendorif and Grotius by heart !—(Laughter.)—With such ne cessary qnalifications, he believed, there would be found a'considerable deficiency in the persons alluded to. But, to prove the efficiency and wis dom of the Board, the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Cockburn) stated, that they sent to the outports men who Were totally ignorant of their avocatioo —because their reports from any of the seaport town's, whither they bad been deputised on a sur vey, were generally found such a mass of igno rance or nonsense, as to require the particular amendments of those who remained in town at the Board ! This reminded him of a story once mentioned by an eminent statesman, who, in charactcrisiog an eccentric person, ludicrously observed, that he never spoke so well on a subject as when he knew nothing about it ! So that the junior Lords sent to the purports might be said never to make so good a survey as when !bey knew nothing of the subject !—(Laughter.) Formerly, when a question arose, iti which the vital principles of the Ministers were not endau gered, they would readily grant, and even pro pose a Committee. Hence a Committee ore the affairs of the Bank—hence a Committee on tit!: Criminal Laws—and hence various other Com mittees-. But attempt to diminish or abolish a single place—attempt to act upon a plan of re trenchment, by the reduction of one of their own corps—and then the whole party become imme diately alarmed, and use their utmost influence to resist every inquiry. It is easily accounting for such desperate expedients; the existence of Admi nistration depends upon the system ; and ally effort to overthrow it, by a retrenchment similar to that now under discussion, is considered as a blow aimed at the vitals, the very heart of the Minister ! He concluded by promising his sup port to the-motion. Mr. P. T. L • IVELLESLEY declared, that he would not Sacrifice his public duty to popularity. Notwithstanding what had been advanced to the contrary, he did not believe that the infloence of the Crown was too great or too dangerous. The present motion was of such a nature as to require his opposition, and from a principle of duty be wool.' act accordingly. The question was then loudly called for from all parts of the House, when a division ensued, and the numbers were— Fur the motion Against it Majority against the motion 81 The other. Orders were then disposed of, after which the House adjourned. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS. 000 ! ' ! y ba d 110 116 r Acc wilco dated NAVY ESTIALITES% The Navy Estimates have been printed by prder of the House of Commons ; they amount to 2,148,5261. 12s. 7d. Estimates have also been printed of the charge that may he necessary for the building and repairing of ships of war and other works, together with the sums that will be wanted for the Transport Service, and by the Victualling Board, for the cost of provisions fer the use of the army on board transports and in garrisGns abroad : The total charge for the Ships is ,C1,145,430 FOr the improvements in the Yards 46(3,iCS For Army Provisons „.. 419,319 For the Transport Department 2,335,VA 'la which add the Navy Estimates ... 0048,52G Total '•1 482,794 Of the sum destined for the Navy, the Estimate of the Half• pay, Superannuations, and Pensions, &c. amounts to no less than 1,125,6921. Its. 9d. The Civil Superannuations and Pensions amount to 100,6941. 6s. 4d. PRESERVATION OF GAME. Mr. BRAND'S II for the preservation of Game has been printed by order of the House of Corn ruons.—The following are the-principal enacting; c l auses':-- Former Acts to be repealed, after a period to be fixed, so far as they restrain persons Lindell the degree or rank, and not haring such estates as in the said Acts are specified, from kil hng game, and as impose a penalty on persons not qualified to kill game, keep goo, dog, &c. for destruction thereof, or prohibit the buying and selling of Game. All hares, rabbits, pheasants, partridges, grouse, heath and moor game, bustards, woodcocks, snipes, quails, land rails, wild ducks, teal, widgeon, and all other wild and unre claimed animals, and the young and eggs of all such animals, are to be deemed the property of the possessor of the land. Lessor of the land may reserve the property and right of pursuing and killing game. Persons entitled by possession of land, or by reservation upon the demise thereof to the game thereon found, may au thorize any person or persons to kill the game uncer certain. restrictions. No pe'rson whosoever to destroy game by snare or net. '1 he present Act not to affect. the farmer Acts, so far as they relate to the times fixed for killing game, or the power of Lords of Manors to appoint game-keepers, or the present duties payalile upon dogs, &c. The other clauses relate to the mode of !Teo• eering the penalties. The avowed object of the Bill is to give the landholder an interest in the preservation of the game.