The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

of the country. Some of the parishes were of such ex tremely limited extent—for instance, one in Cork was entirely occupied by a distillery, and another consisted of only 40 square yards—that if they were not united there would be no provision whatever for the clergyman. Another ground of complaint was the non-residence of the clergy; but this defect was fast disappearing. In 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Armagh was 82, of whom 15 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 102, whilst the number of those non-resident was reduced to five, two of whom were non-resident on account of illness. In 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Meath was 94, of whom 20 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 107, 1 and the number non resident was reduced to seven. n 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Ossory and Ferns was 147, of whom 45 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 244, and the non-residents were reduced to nine. In 1819 there were 109 beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Cashel and Waterford, of whom 52 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of clergymen had increased to 121, whilst that of nonresident was reduced to nine.— (Hear.) Had he been able to procure returns from the other dioceses in Ireland, they would have exhibited similar resultS.—(Hear, hear.) The alleged excessive wealth of the Church in Ireland had long furnished a tonic for declamation against the establishment. In 1833 Lord Althorp was obliged to acknowledge that on no subject had such exaggerated statemerrs been put forth as with respect to the revenues of the Irish Church, and ho (Mr. Hamilton) must he allowed to say that a little of the old spirit of exaggeration was apparent in the remarks of the Hon. Member for Middlesex upon this topic. The Hon. Member stated that the income of the Irish clergy amounted to 680,8361, and that of the Church altogether to 852.000/. The property of the Church was divided amongst the parochial clergy, dig nitaries, and bishops. It appeared from the evidence of Slr. Quin, one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that the gross income of the Irish clergy was 453 094/., and their net income 369,3601., without deducting the poor rates. The amount of rates struck during the year eliding the 31st of December, 1848, througout Ireland, was 2s. 91d. in the pound; and it was truly stated in that House, a few evenings since, that the moment a rate was struck in Ireland landlords deducted the irnount, as they were empowered to do by the Church Temporalities Act, from the clergyman's rent charge. It was therefore necessary to deduct from the net income of the clergy, namely, 369,360/., the amount taken from it by the landlords for poor -rate, which was 63.244/, and would reduce the net income of the clergy to 306,1161.—(Hear.) But there WAS still another de duction to be made from the income of the clergy, namely, the sum which they paid to their curates, which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners returned at 56.7081. That deduction being made, the net income of the clergy of the Irish Church stood at 249 408/., which divided amongst them, independently of curates, would give an average of 172/. 16s. 2d. for each clergyman.—(Hear, hear.) According to the last census, and making no allowance for the subsequent increase of population, there was a congregation of 590 members of the Church of England for each clergyman. Now, the Hon. Mem ber for Middlesex would not think of offering a clergy man with such a congregation less than 1721. a year, and, therefore, it was evident that if he succeeded in establishing his congregational principle he would be unable to effect any saving.—(clear) The net income of twenty of the lsrgest b-nefiees in Ireland was 14,1291.. being an average of 7081. for each, which could not b. , deemed very extravagatit.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") fhe largest benefice in Ireland was that of Temple more, attached to the deanery of Derry. It contained 8 churches, 15 schools, in which LOCO children were edu cated, and the incumbent kept nine curates. The present income of this, the largest benefice in Ireland, was only 1,5521,—(E1ear.) He would admit that the smallness of particular congregations was an evil incident to the pa rochial system, and it was one from which England was riot exempt. The Commissioners of Public Instruction reported that there were in 1834 forty-four benefices in Ireland in which there were no congregations belonging to the Established Church. Twenty of these livings nad lapsed to the general fond, arid twenty-one still existed, of which several would shortly lapse. Bet if thy House were to abolish at once these twenty-one bene fices in which th, re was nn congregation belonging to the Established Church, the net income deri v ab le thre from would be 1,235/. If they took the revenues of the 100 parishes in which there were the smallest congre• ,rations they would derive a yearly sum of 9 049/. The ;;rocs income et the dignitaries of the Established Church in Ireland—deans, archdeacons, prebendaries, &a, exclu slusive of bishops and archbishops—was 23 0001, or 21,000/. net. The next class was the bishops, a reasonable income for whom had been hell to be about 4.0001. The gress income of the English bishops was 6,683/.. and their net income 5,931/ The gross total income of the Irish Bishops was 40,5331., giving en average income to eseh Bishop of 4,0551. The Archbishops received 15,8081., and the total income of Irish Archbishops and Bishops was 56,3811. There were 814 glebe-houses to 1,450 be ;maces, and there were great numbers of applications of pressing necessity for the building of new and the repair of old churches, which it was impossible to meet, from the want of funds. He trusted that he had stated suffi cient to correct the errors and gross exaggerations pre valent respecting the wealth of the Irish Church.— (Hear, hear.) This Honourable Member for Mayo (fir. Moore) declared that the Irish Church had not fulfilled the object for which it hail been established, but he .hould have thought that the sacrifices made by the clergy of the Established Church during the late dis tress sufficiently disproved the assertion that no social elvantages had resulted from the existence of that Church. Ile had always held that the Irish Church ought to be sustained and upheld its a missionary sod aggressive Church.—(Hear, hear.) The, Noble Lord the Member for Arundel said that he would not give a farthing for a Church that sras not a missionary chu ch and aggressive in its cha racter. Truth cool 1 only be promoted by the c .Vision of opinions, and he considered it to be the duty equally of Protestants and Roman Catholics t i propogate th• it views, provided that in doing so they did not violate Christian charity. The Noble Lord at the head of the government said on the 16th of July, 1846, in reference to this subject, that the destruction of the l'ro'estant Church in Ireland would be a fatal measure in a political ooint of view, as it, would alienate the feelings of many of the most loyal inhabitants of Ireland; and tit a religious point of view, because it would be the commencement of a religious war, in which the most violent attack would be made on the Roman Catholic Church ; and that he believed the Roman Catholics themselves would ie the first to complain of the destruction of the Protes tant Church. He (Jlr. Hamilton) believed that the Noble Lord had not in the slight, at degree exaggerated the ,e,elinga of the great, mass of the Roman Catholics in that r ht e p et r - tc c ttho. themselves,eeh , b tcehd was would a h s a t s t o h greate nwuetl l body of that Church, c which he ivilisation .—(Hear.) s eel( calculatedt he o destruction pro m ot, promote g e ife e s e tih a n nd en ( Mr. HUME would not long detain the House on a frequently before expressed s opinions. The Hon. Gentleman down had called the attention of who had just sat r arid other leature4 of the the E House to the plu- I-eland, not one of which was mentionedtblished Church in in ki if the Hon. M- m b er f or Middlesex. lie (Mr. na°Lion Hume) lad risen to complain that the Right Hon. Baronet had tot grappled in any fair way with the motion of his sous Friend. rhe injury, inerelly and socially, which ho Church in Ireland it:flatted on the people was de elorable, an it would he sound policy to put a stop to he evil—an evil which inflmted degradation on every Catholic iii the country —(Hear.) He had only to sae that he considered the motion of his Hon. Friend, in a financial point of view, as of great importance, and, as sff-cting the morals of the people, as of the greatest weight. The Right Hon. Baronet, in opposing the :notion, went off on the plea that the Church had been :.0 0 ted 300 years; but it had, he (Mr. Elume) was sorry et say, grown very badly—(Laughter)—and while it increased but little, if et all, the Catholic Church in -teased twelvefold. The price of supporting the Church if Ireland, as it was now supported, cost the people of tlnglend 50,000 armed men. He felt that every Irishman rnest rise daily and feel himself in relation to the state and iperation of the Church, a degraded mortal ; and .what was mere, he had the additional mortification of hearing the minority on every Sunday, railing against the majority who paid for the support of their Church, keeping up a state of antagonistic feeling in the country. Was it not too bad to find the minority thus abusive of the majority who were compelled to supp .rt them? The On-, however, he would tell the Reuse. was come, when they must deal with the people of Ireland on a very lifferent footing in respect to that Church.—(Elear, hear.) Let them look to Scotland. If tile Government had sec emded in planting in that country, as was done in Ire land, a Church which was alien to the feelings of its people, would Scotland be the country which it was IOW? No; It would be in the same state that Ireland was now.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted that while in Env:arid the people enjoyed their own religion, ind senile in Scotland the people enjoyed th-ir own religion, Ireland was placed in the anomalous situation of seeing -,he majority of her people taxed, in order that the mi nority might exist. Was it any wonder, then, that dis • content existed in that country?—(Hear, hear.) Let them assign any other cause. He admitted that bad laws prevail , d in the country. forming a source of discontent; but the great cause of discontent was the state of the Established Church in that country—a cause which his Hon. Friend made as clear as anti thing could be. The Church was the foundation on which Repeal" and every other association was based, 'He could never forget the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) when be was leaving office, and surrendering power into the hands of the present Ministers, in relation to the Irish Church. The Right Hun, Baronet said on that occasion that he should sup Dort the Ministers in their efforts te remove those causes of disuont, nt arising from one class of religion being place! in the asceuilant over another. The I{,i.:ht Hon. Baronet knew that the men who now occupied the Minis terial benches had been railing for forty years against the abuse, and he thought that they would be the perry to remove that grievance; but he (Mr. Hume) regretted that the Right Honourable Baronet and the public were disappointed in that opinion. The clinging of the Church party to the morel —he meant the revenues of the Church—convinced him that they were doubtful of their own Church, and that they felt that without those means the Church of England would fall. It was impos sible that any people (unless they were slaves) could submit to such a state of injustice and degradation. The revenues of the Church of Rigland were public money— they were public property taken by Parliament from one sect, and given by Parliament to another sect. —(Cries of Hear, hear.") He only rose to express his regret that the Government were not prepared to favour the motion of his Hon. Friend for the appointment of a Committee to take into consideration the state of the Irish Church, with a view to a correction of its abuses.—(Hea r , hear.) Ur. F. WOUD was anxious on ocoasien to ex he believed that since the Reformetion the Protestant service had never been celebrated in any one of the eight parishes he had alluded to.—(Hear.) The Irish Church, notwithstanding all the support it had received, hid ~c ompietely failed in carrying out the objects intended by It never would carry out that object, and he did not therefore see the propriety of keepine, it up. Reforms had been attempted in that Church, in order to bring it more into popular favour; but these had all failed in d o i ng so. These reforms had been proposed and carried out by the Right H tn. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and others; but they had all totally failed, That Church was, therefore, conceived to be a harden on the people of Ireland, and while that idea of it prevailed among the people, there was no hope of its ever being rendered useful to that country. He held that the religion of the majority of the people ought to be the religion of the State, and as such supported by the State; and in support of that doctrine he quoted the opinion of Drs. Bailie, Warburton, and Arnold. It was, however, said that as the Act of Union had made Ireland an integral portion of this empire, that it was the reli tn° of the maj or ity o f th e three kingdoms—Scotland , gland, and Ireland—that ought to determine what Was to be the established religion. That, how• ever, was not a proper ground to p r oceed upon, for if they admitted the principle of giving the sup - Port o f the State to the religion of the majority of e t,he peopl e o f England aw l S cot l an d, why could rey to refuse to extend the same system to Ire 'es_aad? The present system of making the priests of the ‘boman Catholic Church in Inland so dependent upon thethose priests to peopl e was th e means of causing sympathise with, and to further the prejudices and opi nions of the people, while by placing the priests on an independent footing they would obviate that evil. No 1 3" who had paid any a t te ntion to the history of Ire -and, could tail to have seen the bad effects of such a Beeiteini It was said that the Roman Catholic clergy men did not themselves respect the law; but had they not respected the law, Ireland would have been in a dif ferent state from what it was at present. No doubt the Rom an Catholics of Ireland were, as a body, disaffect- d, and no wonder that they should be so, while they saw a Church established amongst them, eating up the re 110nrees of their country, while the great majority of the P e ople repudiated its doctrines. By appropriating the reve nues of that Church for other purposes, and doing a W . ay With that sectarian feeling which, while that eenurch 'Establishment .existed in Ireland, would still Prevail, they would be conferring the greatest benefit on the people of Ireland. air G. GREY—I wish to relieve at once the anxiety and apprehensions expressed by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Middlesex, that the Government would, on this occasion, move the previous question; for, however may differ from him in thinking that there may be Occasions on which moving the previous question is the Proper way of meeting the .point at issue, when I look it the circumstances under which this motion is made, the particular effects it may produce, and the object he confesses he has in view, I do not think this question one Which can be met in that manner. and, as I am not pre pared to entertain the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's plan, I consider I am justified in at once voting against the motion.—(Hear ' hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member warned the Government that they were not to congratulate themselves on the present circumstances and condition of Ireland. That the circumsiauces and cendition of that country are not such as to °Cr a prospect of unmitigated satisfaction, I deeply regret to say I concur with him in asserting. On the contrary, it is one which it is impos sible for any person to contemplate without deep pain and regret ; but at the same time I am unable to see in the motion t h e H onourab l e and G a ll ant M em b er h as brought f orwar d t h e sl i ghtest hope that i t wou l d reme d y the social evil s , w hi c h are the real evils at present, or Ireland, or th a t i t wou ld f ac il itate h er impr o vement Ra vinges e list ene d w i th attention to t h e speec h o f t h e eeorurable M em b er tor Mayo (Mr. Moore), I must say could discover but little in support of the Honourable and Gall ant e Gentlem an ' s plan The Honourable Gen ic°s an (Ner oore).saye he supports the motion because nillealceltaled to r emove d omest i c gr i evance a nd dime political hu e discontent. I. on the contrary, think it to revive that political to excite domestic discontent, and less in err 1 11 political disquiem le of which we have form.:" at the present moment than at able and ee ,P er iod.—(Eleer, hear.) The Henour time of the ant Member occupied much of the Pressed b . House in quoting sentiments ex- G over , y this elembers of the Heuse and of the to " le nt on this question, tine he did me the honour rp pr to th took . ()Pinion I expressed in the debate which sil ence a o ee in 1 844, adding that there had been an ominous n our part from that period to the present, and nthfatthetrtiTinrthe time when my Noble Friend the Frst Lord the Iris hc ,,aary brought forward his motion respecting said respecting Church to this, there had never been one word li ous ,, -B P''etirig that question within the walls of the I se , 7 a feet which he declared it to be his intention to aftePr t o the m emory o f Government.—(f tear, hear.) Now, in th a" the resea rc h of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman e Pges of Hansard. and atter all his pains iu eel of Passages suitable to his purpose, I must complain Want of memory in return. The Houourable and Gallant Gentleman seems to have fergoiten the debate o il 184 5, whi c h l e d t o a protracted di,cu.si .n. tin that ce asten I repeated the opinions I had expressed tifort *--.Thnot exactly such as he, in order to recommend his motion to the House, quoted them—but such as I have ever retained and new adhere to ou this question—(lllw, u ttn e e ).—natnely, opinions against the policy, the justice, Sh oti ` i ' e tlee expediency of m entaining in Ireland, or in stay er country, an Established Church endowed by the „ 01 0 1 , that Church being the Church of the minority. eee d cries of " Hear, hr ar," from several Lion. Mew I heve repeat, die expressed these opinions before, but I now ask the Hon. aiel Gallent Gentleman it theremet is anythin g i n t hi s p l an o f hi s a ff ect i ng the endow of the Estaoli s hed Church, or i s th e r e any r eme d. coot Gallatn" hi i t f or t h at gr i evance? The Honourable and allow" neither, in humble imitation—l hope he will s P ose me teat, eto say — o f a greater man than h i mse l f, pro following out the plan of Lord Stanley, wh o , „ pro- We there were twenty Bi s h ops i u I re l an d , re d uced b meta to ten, we should reduce those ten to five.—(Heat,, ea r.) But, does he propose there should be any en dowment of the Roman Catholic Church? Cer awly not. But the five Bishops would still be endowed by the State as the Bishops of our Established Church, and Would enjoy t h e Ch urc h revenues; and. so long as they did so, the question, which I have- repeatedly expressed my belief to be a question not of money but of feeling, would remain untouched.—(Elear, hear.) The Hon and Gallant Gentleman also forgets the subject was dis cussed at the close of 1848. when I must do him the jutice he forgot to render to himself, in reminding him he brought it before the Ilouse in a speech on the gen.— ral state of Ireland, and when I,stated in reply to him the views I have always expressed on this subject. But may I, while on this subject, ask the Ron. anti G Alan, Gentleman when he accuses us of changing our opinions why he has Chang. d his plan since th. n? —(Heat-. hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman talks of a compro mise, but there must be two parties to a cotnpr,enise; and I have yet to learn that he is in the confidence o' the Roman Catholics of Ireland, or that this plan of his will remedy all their disconteut. I mist remind the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman, when he says I have maintained au ominous silence on this questien since 1844, that on the 29th July, 1848, I spoke as follows: "I am nut prepared to deny, but to affirm, that the ex istence of an exclusive Protestsnt Church in Irelatto (the Protestant Episcopalians b- ing, a small minority only of the population) is an anomally unjustifiable it, its origin and indeten , ible now. I know No other coun try in Europe in which the same experiment has beet, made —in which the same attempt has been c arried out • and I am quite prepared to sea that the wisdom ant, policy of the attempt in Ireland must be condemned b. its results." I will not troub:e the H .use with repeat ing eny m ore o f what I then expressed; but I think I have said enoug h to exonerate myself from the charge o i on of having p reserved the ominous silence of which the .. and G a ll ant G entleman accused me. L tekine . back, howev e r, to t h e spetch I delivered in 1844, to Which the Hon. and Gallant Memeer has given partial quotations, l eaving out the pith of my opinions—l ti., e ti ot expressed myself with respect to the facility re any measure to r e d ress the gr i evauce and rem , dy the sails complained of in terms stronger than I would nos u R,. t.-- (Clicers.) When the Ri g ht 11 t n . B aronet (S' R• Peel) int ro lured his Bill to increase the endowmert anal,i,ototh I qual i fi e d t h e op i nions I expressed in 1844 s to that whilst I h a il e d t h e measure as the fi rst ate; wards r emoving r what had been fel t to b e a s t i gma an d i nsult I did the least degree it on the Gov e r nment to a d vanc p eeepeo , further than they could go with e sub jeet Lot u ceess.—(Hear, hear.) Si n c e th at ti me t h e has occupied much of the attention of her Me Jesty' s G overnment. They have anxiously desired to the find a remedy fur the evils of which they recognised exi stence, but w h en t h e H on . G ent l eman t h e na Me er for M ayo (Mr. Moore) says the prejudices t ofthe people of this country are an obstacle to the s n at o i n s . fac ‘e t.ory. settlement of the question, and tha• et =ere come to this House prepared to Vote against their consciences in deference to the prejudices o' e their const i tuents, I must rininclhim that other g rounds of difficulty besides those h ethere men are has tinned. I mu st rem i nd him that one great bar to te set t ement of that question is the avowed, and repeated, and determined resolution (as far as we can judge) of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and of the great body of the Roman Cath o li c clergy and laity, not to co ns e n t to an y scheme by which their Church should be endowed.— (Cheers.) We are nut in the same petition as we were when the R oman Catholic, were petitioning Parliament for admission to the civil privil eges f rom w hi c h they were unjustl y debarred, but I believe a mistaken, of Scotiand feeling and we have a strong, honest, country andamong the people of this Roman Catholic Church, against the endowment of the whila we have the great body of the hierarchy and cler against such a measure.—Uieeaf that Chul.'4l protesting Wh••u I feel this to be the case I ask myself, is irt.)worth while, whatever opinions we may entertain, to Pro ele a measure which would give rise to great animosit'' contention, and de. and Which, i t o h s e re of being bate —excite much opposition, nor!, therefore, t. f ee o r r e w , whom accepted as a boots, would be rejected b We asked it? I am not prepared e rhc o eh f r the more than I was last year, to go into a Committee whole House with the Hon. and Gallant J• C le ti . to cripple the resources of the Establishe I in Ireland, and with the view of taking that mutilatt only as an instalment, l oo ki ng , as I understood him, to thee ultimate extinction and a b o li t i on o f t h at Church alto . gether. I shall not go into all the topics advanced by the Hun, and Gallant Gentleman, but this I may say, that with regard to trust property I ain not prepared to go the length which. according to him, Lord Brougham did in days gone by. lie said the property of the Church and the pay of the army were on the same footing. Mr. B. OiBORNE—Sir James Mackintosh said the same tlaing.—(A laugh.) bir G. GREY—Whether the lion. and Gallant Mem ' 'ber quotes the Noble Lord correctly or not lam unable 9 say, but, whether Lord Brougham or Sir James Mackintosh said it, I am not prepared to agree to the principle so broadly laid down. I am, however, quite prepared to draw a distinction between trust and private property, and there are Acts on the statute-book which show that Parliament has exercised th e ri g ht of 1 gts lating for trust property, and of making regulations with regard to it which they would not make for private property. An 110 N. MEMBER—What of Lord Lansdowne? Sir G. GREY—As to Lord Lensdewne's question, " Is the country made for the Church, or the Church for the country?" I have no hesitation in saying I believe the Church should be .made for the country—that the only object of its establishment is to teach religion and to watch over the formation of the morals of the people—and that the Church which fails in this must fail in everything else.—(Hear, hear.) Nor would I rely on the sth article of the union as a bar to the motion, any more than it was a bar on a former oc casion when the Noble Lord asked the House to go into Committeeon the Church Temporalities Act, though I regard it certainly as opposing a bar to the absolute ex tinction of the Established Church in Ireland.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member said very truly, if we were allowed to begin de novo no one would think of establishing in Ire land such a Church as exists there at present; but I must recall the Hon. Member's attention to the difference be tween the original institution of a Church and a Church which has existed for 200 years. The Hon. Member (Mr. Moore) alluded to the past history of that Church, and said it was written in characters of blood ; and, speaking of the horrors which had taken place since its first establishment, declared they surpassed those of the Italian inquisition. But I coal,' have hoped the same feeling which made him doubt whether he had done right in alluding to those occurrences in - darker times and ages long gone by would have induced him to pause ere he did so, or to have at least moderated his language. I for one think the terms used by the Hon. Member were too strong, and I must remind him we are cleating with the Cherch that now exis a, not with that which existed cen turies ago. I must regret that, having mentioned those topics, he did not feel it was his duty also to advert to the conduct of the Protestant clergy, and to bear his testimony to the untiring beneficence and indefatigable endeavours of that body during the recent period of famine—(" Hear, hear" from Mr. Moore)—;o their de sires and labours to mitigate the distress of the people without religious or party distinction, and to the good produced by their zealous and noble exertions.—(hear, hear.) 'rho Hon. Member for Middlesex stated that I was a member of the Irish Society, having subscribed to its funds. The Irish Society, however, is not con nected with the Irish Church. It is a voluntary society, supported by voluntary subscriptions; and the Honour able Gentleman, being an advocate of the voluntary system, has no right to object on his own principles to the existence of a society whose members have tee the object of their association how to benefit their fel low-creatures. I have a knowledge of its former history, though not of its recent acts ; but I have the strongest reason to believe that the object of the society was to send forth men in the missionary spirit who could speak the Irish language, and would, by speaking the Irish language, be enabled to con vey spiritual and moral instruction to many of their fellow countrymen, to whom such instruction would otherwise be inaccessible. But if the Hon. Member means to charge me with cherishing any sympathy for, or giving any assistance to those who would take advan tage of the distress in Ireland to withhold relief from the people except on the condition of abjuring their faith, and who would thus be making temporal aid u means of seducing them from that faith, I can only say that I utterly repudiate - any such imputation—(Hear, hear)—and in doing so, I shall add that I have no reason to believe that there is any member of that Irish Society. or any person connected with it, who could be capable of such conduct. The Hon. Gentleman read an extract of a speech delivered by some person whom he described as an scent of that society.—(Mr. Osborne—t‘ A clergy man ") I a.n not responsible for that speech, and with the sentiments I cannot profess the slightest sympathy. The Honourable Gentlemen alio read a letter pur porting to be from the Lord Lieutenant of Irelan 1, in which it was said that 0 the loyalty of the f;atholics was not to be trusted." I believe the Lor.i - Lieutenent said no such thing. The Hon. Gentlemen did not mention the date of that letter. He is a person of so much research that it is impossible to follow Wm through all the documents he has quoted.—(A laugh.) But, from all my intercourse with the Lord- Lieutenant, there is no person, I am convinced, less likely to express such a sentiment ; and I believe his opinion to be, as it is the opinion of myself and others. that there is a general spirit of loyalty and attachment towards the Sovereign ot this realm pervading the great body of the people of Ireland—('fear, hear) —with cer tain exceptions, which have now, I hope, ceased to exist. Ido not think that I need enter into a defenc of the Established Church of Ireland. That may well he left in the hands ot the Honourable Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), who will take grounds, howese r, which I should not, gene rally speaking, be able to take. But I was anxious to re-state my opinions on the question which the Honourable Member for Middlesex has raised, and to remind the House of the great and. paramount diffi culty which exists with respect to the terms on which it can be settled ; and, till we can reasonably hope to be able to propose a measure to Parliament which shall carry out those views, I do not think it the duty of the Government to follow a course which could only hay( the effect of leading to interminable discussions and acrimonious debates. For these reasons I shall vot• against the motion. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the absence of my Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell). It is owing to domestic causes which left him no alternative. —(Hear, hear.) But for that circumstance, it was hi, fill intention to have been present. Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed. that the Right Hon. Baronet, admitting that the Established Church of Ire land was a great injustice, argued us if that injustice would be done away with by establishing another Church. The state of the Irish Church had always been ,he great grievance on which the movement for the peal of the union rested. On what ground did those who defended it take their stand? On the ground that re ligious truth ought to be maintained. But those wh• trgued so were parties to establishing Hindooism in India, the Catholic religion in Malta and Canada, the Presbyterian Church in Scotland How, then, could they say that their object was to establish re ligious truth? Having sanctioned those variou establisha.:ents in deference to a majority of tie people in each instance, they yet established in Ireland the Church of a small minority. Was it on the ground of religious efficiency that the Dish Church was defended? In the time of Charles II the proportion of Protestants to Romln Catholics wa, As 3 to 8; in 1824 the Protestants were to the Catholti sty tor Sudety, beingworkaa r . prin published t by the Ecclesiastical of the Comm an Praye , introduced „i ,as fo i r mp th u e ted us t e o c o le f rg th y e me l n ris o l; grossi t ' i ru k reh o , rig that Church, and the editor remati s ke t d h th rt nu suir.ablt• rn r , , , i n vis p io r n ,,y h er ad eir b t e .u er a, m ,d ac, in fa t i h r . ht ios Book of Cum ri ton e v u e e r , n o a r eu fr re . quiring that clergymen should speak the g having been chimed that the Book of Common P a r r . ; 1 . 1 sheuld be read only in English or Latin. the 4 O Y t t- rt: hand, there was a people speaking the Irish langirige, ou the other, a Churcti established which pusiiivel enacted that no Irishman should be.electsd to a cure p miens-stem had been made three times to see whiehe , en Englishman could be got. It was making men prat , tical hypocrites to compel them to euppert a Churei whose dope is they believed untrue, and whose preach oig they thought unsound. Was it on political ground hat ttie Church established in Ireland could be de ended? Certainly that Church had not been the mean et procuring tranquillity. It had been said that th Protestants went to Ireland with a sword in one hand and a Bible in the other. They drew the sword, bte, eirgut to (seen the Bible. They had distinguished them ;elves mere by confiscations than by coucessions. Ann what had constantly been the caues of agrarian disturb • ince ? It was to the injustice of the tithe system that Kock, and Starlight, and the Peep-u'-Day Buys °wen tneir origin:- 4 . As long as Popish spade and scythe Shall dig and cut the Sassenach tithe, And Popish purses pay the tolls On Heaven's road for Sassenach souls; As long as millions shall kneel down To ash of thuesands for their own; Si long the happy reign shall be Of Cepiain Rock and his family!" The Church of Ireland had further been made odious as a political engine; and the great body of the Irish peep! , hid made up their minds that, by some means or other. so great a practical aeuse as that Church should be abated. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, while he could not approve .f the views stated by the Right Hen. Gentleman the Secretary for the Heine Departtnent. must make hi. Acknowledgments for the intimation of the Right 1-lon. Gentleman's intention tO meet the motion by a decided "egatiee.—(Bear, beau.) No policy cetilil b s attentlei , ty more fatal consequences than any weekness on th' part of the Government with reference to the subject 0. toe Church at thattime. r()m h uoen argument,. t Heregretted that the questiol t m e o t d bee he raisedn s har by the Member fobruAtlitrihdaltesesxin— tthat ce n i. inotuhse abandoned,se controversyt thetn e hhaadd, acrimonybaes e . i 147 , 8 1 r p 4e 0 : l i b t sy i i i n ei ce° l elu f lis t r e bo l n mitig eed, and the revival of either wan to be ilepreceted. the Hon. Member obj.cted to the inertness - of the Irish Church at a former period, and now that it was active he said that it was promoting hypocrisy. It would be his ()Ir. Hamilton's) duty to point o u t w h at h a d b een done towards correcting the abuses in the Irish Church to which the Hon. Member had particularly adverted. and he would pledge his character upon the accuracy of any statements he might make. One of the primary grounds of complaint against the Church in Ireland was the existence of pluralities. Miny Hon. Members inn p rrhaps, that pluralities existed to a great extent ui the Irish Church, and that there were no means of cor recting the abuse. In 1834 the number of pluralities in the Irish Church was SE ; in 1843, the date of the last. return, the number had been reduced to 34.—( leer, hear.) The process of reduction was still in progress. No fresh pluralities could be created except through n faculty granted by the Primate of Ireland, and no such faculty had been granted since 1828. In point of fact, the system of pluralities was fast disappearing under the administration of that distinguished Prelate. Sine cures furnished another ground of complaint against the Irish Church; but under the Church Temporalities Act and subsequent Acts ample provision was made for the correction of that abuse. Another defect in the establish ment upon which its opponents laid great stress was the existence of union , . It was true that the existence of unions was an abuse which once prevailed to a great ex tent in Ireland, but it had been abated by the operation of the Church Temporalities Act, which invested the Lord -Lieutenant in Council with power to dissolve unions. No fewer than 53 unions had been dissolved since 1833. Some few unions yet remained, because they were indispensable under the existing circumstances THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING - , JULY 11, 1840. press the grounds on which he meant to give his vote on this queetien, and to make some observations on the speech of the Hon. Member for the University - of Dubin (Mr. Hamilion). While he censidered the Church of England—to which he was proud to belong—was the purest, and he sp dee it witnout intention to give offence to any other religion, he could not but express his regret at the state of that Church in Ireland, and the manner in which it was supported. It was plain, he must say, that Church formed but a very small portion of the people of the country; and the House should recollect that they were dealing with it as a national question. The ground on which he could give his vote for the motion now be fore the House, was not that ho expected that at that late period of the session it would be successful, but to mark his sense of the question; at the same time, in voting for the motion to go into Committee, he did not pledge himself to vote for all those points in reference to the state of the Established Church in Ireland which the Honourable Member had referred to in introduc ing the question. Now, with reference to the Church, he was bound to say that it had never been the national Church of Ireland, They had seen the conquest of Wales, and why did not these grievances which afflicted Ireland prevail there? They had found that with very few exceptions, the inhabitants were not handed over to the Normans as the Irish were; and the consequence was, that although they were exposed to great diffieulties in Wales, they had peace and tran quillity in that country, notwithstanding it was, as he re marked, a conquered country. The difference between the countries was, that the people of Wales were left their estates, while the Irish people were doomed to have their estates divided among the Norm sns; and the Governments of this country really thought no more of the Irish, than they did of the natives when establishing the eolonies in America. The qtvstion seemed to him to be a great grievance requiring decided redress. The point moat desired in all churches was that she should be the guardian and directress of the poor; but in Ire land the Church exercised no such kindly functions for the benefit of the " mere Irish." Now while he gave support to the motion, he differed from some of the det.ils which the Honourable and Gallant Member for Middlesex announced his intention of moving it they went into Committee.—(Hear, hear.) tie did not think it necessary that a bishop should have 4 0001. a year. Indeed, one of the best Bishops of the Episcopal Church he ever knew had only 701. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Fifteen hundred a year ought to be the maximum allowance to each bishop. They were bound to take steps to remedy the abuses which existed in this respect—abuses which principally arose from the fact of the Church in Ireland not being a national church. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. - Mr. PACKE postponee his motion on the delay in completing the new II luso of Comm nu till next session. HARBOURS OF REFUGE. On the motion of Mr. BRIGHT (in the absence of Ur. Hume), the following returns were ordered: — Return of all sums voted for harbours of refuge since the year 1844 and a statement of the money expended upon Dover, Harwich, and Portland respectively: similar return for ilolyheed, distinguishing between the gums expended upon the old and new harbours: statement, showing under which depactment of Govern ment the several harnJur works are being carried out, and the sort of superintendence or control that is exercised over them; copies of the authenticated plan (if any) of the works to be executed at each of these places, showing the extent to which it is proposed they should be carried, and the estimated expense of each ; and of the report of surveys, if any, or copy of plans, if any, showing the progress made from time to time in the works ; and showing also their peesent state ; the amount already expended on each, and the amount to be expended to complete the works as originally planned. C pies of the authority under which the harbour depertment of the A,lmirelty was formed, and of the letter of instructions, if any, which prescribed its duties ; and of report of any Committee of Inquiry as to the efficiency of that department, or of any report, if any, recommending its reduction,, together with any documents or other evidence on which such report may have been founded. NEW BILLS. Leave was given to bring in the following Bills: On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a Bill to repeal the allow Ances in the purchase of stamps, and for the re ceiving and accounting for the duties on gold and silver plate, and to grant oth"r allowances in lieu thereof. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, a Bill further to amend an Act of the 10th year of her present Majesty, for rendering valid certain proceedings for the Relief of Distress is Ireland, by employment of the labouring poor, and to indemnify those who have acted in such proceedings. Also, Bill to amend an Act of the 10th year of her Majesty, inti tuled, " An Act to facilitate the Improvement of Landed Property in Ireland." On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, a Bill to continue an Act of the sth and 6th years of her present Majesty for amending the law relative to private lunatic asylums in Ireland. MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL. Mr. WYLD moved the second reading of this Bill. Year after year the loss of lite in collieries was increas ing, and this year it had increased 35 per cent. over the previous year, and his object in proposing this Bill was to provide a remedy for this evil by a proper and efficient system of inspection. Sir G. GREY suggested that legislation should be postponed until the Committee now sitting of the Howe of Lords on the subject, and the Commission appointed by the Government, should have reported. He did not desire to go into the merits'of the Bill, but he was not prepared to assent to the app Antment of a chief inspec tor in London, and a number of inspectors in the coun try, to be paid for by a rate of 3d. in the pound. He believed the understanding on a former day was, that the Bill should be postponed until the inquiries referred to had concluded. If the Hon. Gentleman persisted in pressing the second reading, he should feel it his duty to move that it be read a second time that day three Mr. NAPIER. would be quite willing to rest the case of .the Church on the able and eloquent statement of his Hon. and valued Colleague. but there were some mistakes in the arguments of the Honourable and L?arned Gen tleman opposite, which he desired to correct. He was quite willing to compare the doctrines of the Protestant Church with those of the earliest churches, and to try its doctrines by the word of God. If they were to have their own conscientious views of what a Church of eighteen hundred years ought to possess, he believed the funds at the disposal of the Establishment were not more than sufficient for its creditable support. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that whatever was done with the funds of the Established Church, a reason able and sufficient income ought to be reserved for the working clergy.—(Hear.) Tnere was, moreover, a question of expediency involved in this matter, and he contended, that so respectable a body as the Protestant Church, including in the Church both clergy and laity, were entitled to a respectable provision. It was a diffi cult thing to get at the exact revenues of a church, but he believed, after the utmost investigation. that the sum actually received by the clergy and the Commissioners for the Reduction of Ves.ry Cess and other matters, amounted to between 650,0001. and 660,0001. a year. The number of the clergy was certainly too great, and when they were paying men out of a trust fund, it was evidently absurd to pay men out of a trust who had no fitlti.3 to perform, Tnere were not above 200 more Rotnan Catholic clergy than Protestant, although the disparity in the numbers was so great ; and if it should be said that there were friars in orders outside the Ro man Catholic Church, then he answered by pointiug to the Wesleyan preachers outside the Protestant Church, who were more numerous than the friars. With regard to any surplus fund that there might be, he meant to ay that he should not wish any portion of such a sum to be given to the Roman Catholics, as it would give an appearance of triumph to one party over another. It was in no spirit of hostility that he should vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend. months. Mr. AGLIONBY supported the Bill. Mr. BERNAL opposed it. He had a sincere deijre to effect the object in view, but he had Lull confidence that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would pay due attention to the subject. Mr. DUNCAN requested Mr. Wyld to withdraw the Bill. Strangers withdrew, but the Bill was ucgatived with out a division. In reply to Mr. HENLEY, Mr. LABOUCHERE said he could not at present fix the day for the second reading of the Railway Audit Bill, but that he would do so on Thursday. The House went into Committee on the POOR RELIEF (CITIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL, The several clues of which were agreed to. BOROUGHS RELIEF BILL. This Bill passed through Committee. TRUSTEES RELIEF BILL. This Bill also passed through Committee. SHERIFFS (WESTMORELAND) BILL. This Bill was read a second time and passed through Committee. The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-part One o'clock. Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret at the speec' of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for unt that moment he had thought that the Hon. Gentleman was for relieving the people of Ireland of the members of the Established Church, instead of being an advocate for tinkering the temporatities of the Establishment. Ile had often heard that St. Patrick was an Irishman — that he carne of decent people—that in point of fact he was a gentleman ; but until that evening he certainly was not aware of his having been a Protestant.—(Laugh ter.) He should not say a word, God forbid, of his Protestant friends and neighbours, but an illustrious countryman of his, namely, Dean Swift, had spoken of the Bishops appointed in his time in the following terms: —" No blame rests with the Court for their asp ,int wants, and excellent and moral men were selected for all vacancies, when they occurred, but it unfortunately hap petted, that as the worthy divines crossed Hounslow heath, they were robbed and murdered on the highway, and those who did a seized on their robes, and patents of appointment. came over to Ireland, and were con secrated in their stead."—(Roars of laughter.) Thest , were the lineal descendanta of St. Patrick. Let thtm now see how the rest got on down to their own time. ['he Hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Hamilton) talked of averages, and asserted that the Church was not so rich as it was thought, for the clergy, on an average, had only 1721. 19s. lip. per annum. But some had only 501. And as to averages, when the corn-law was about to be repeal'-d, it was asserted that on an average every man, woman, and child in England consumed a certain quantity of beef and mutton daily. whereas in point of fact it was well known that thousands of these same people never ate a morsel of one or the other from year's end to year's end.—(Laughter.) It was precisely the same with the parsons. Well, there was another view of the case, showing how these aver -1 ages told. The following summary was taken from a paper called the Daily Reporter, giving an account of the sums of money paid to the Established Church of Ireland:—Archbishops, 151,1271. 12s. 4d.; Deans, 22,6241. ss. 6d. ; ministers' money, 10,0001.; making altogether, with glebe lands, an aggregate sum of 807 5331. 12s. 4d. to which should be added 75 0001. a year paid to Trinity College.—(Hear.) Then, again, those lineal descendants of St. Patrick— (A laugh)—paid the common dent of nature, and then came the probate duty paid by their heirs, which he found in. another public d mument, up to July, 1832, as follows: Fowler, Archbishop of Dublin, 150,0001.; Beresford, Bishop of 'foam, 250,0001.; Agar, Bishop of Cashel, 400,0001.; Stoptord, Bishop of Cork, 250,0001.; Bernard, Bishop of Limerick, 250,000/. ; Hawkins, Bish tp of Raphost, 250 0001.; and several others, making in ail a.suna of 1,575,000/. as probate duty. He did not mean to insinuate .that those Bishops were substituted for the persons robbed on Hounslow-heath, but they certainly feathered their nests very well. The Right Honourable . Gentliman the Secretary of State for the Rome Department made a speech of which he did not approve. Now, as regarded the appropriation of reve nues, he repudiated the idea of appropriating to Catholie purposes any portion of it. His religion was not to be sustained by the mammon of iniquity. The Hon. Gen tleman, after reading an extract of a speech of Earl Fortescue, pointing out the grievances of the Established Church in Irelai,d, concluded by thanking the Honour. able Member for Middlesex for the able manner in which he brought the question forward. Major BERESFORD denied that the sum attributed to the Archbishop of Tuam, on which probate duty was paid, amounted to 250 0001. When the statement was first made, he applied to his relatives, and received the most distinct refutation, for it only amounted to 40,000 L, and not 250,0001,, as had. been, asserted. Mr. REYNOLDS explained. The document to which he referred was a public one, and as to the amount of probate duty, it was to be had at the Stamp-office. Mr. J. O'CONNELL denied that the people of Ireland were indifferent to the monster grievance of the . Estab lished Church, and protested against any endowment being made to the Catholic Church. Mr. OSBORNE—I do not think that the friends of religious equality in It land have reason to regret the tone, or upshot, of the debate,—(Hear, hear.) 13ut the present is a melancholy occasion, and the Whig ptin ciple has expired.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) We have heard of the birth, parentage, and education of the appropriation dense, and now our melancholy duty is to attend its obsequies; the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department sings the dirge as chief mourner, while all the men who voted for the clause since 1835 are forced to walk in the funeral procession.—(lleac hear and laughter.) The Right Hon. G e ntleman says that I am not consistent, because I wished to abolish the Church altogether in 1848. But when he reminds me of my inconsistency, he should not forget that he himself supported the ballot in Devonport and op posed it in Northumberland.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the last man to taunt another with inconsistency; he is evidently a man of in firm mind.—(A laugh.) I did not expect to be taunted for offering a compromise, but the Right Hon. Gentle man refuses all compromise. He says "If I could see a good practical plan." What is his plan? He would endow the Roman Catholic Church; would he? He knows that he dare not do it. lie knows that that is a step which the Whigs, false as they are, will not attempt so long as they have the government of the country in their bands.—(Hear.) I regret that the Right Hon. Member for Dungarvan and one or two other member , of the Government have not given us the benefit of theit opinion. Avuredly they win be obliged to eat much dirt to-night.—(Cheers and laughter.) But whatever flattering unction they may lay to their souls, they can not go on night after night seeing one principle expire after another. They may lean one night on a crutch and en another lean on a cushion from Montrose— (Great laughter)—but they are only staggering on, and must at last expire from sheer political atrophy. This question, which had already destroyed so many Govern. ments, will eventually prove the grave of her Majesty's present Ministry.—( Bear, hear.) At the conclusion of the Hon. Member's reply, there was a pretty general rush from the Ministerial benches. As the Members passed out they were greeted with loud ironical cheering from the Protectionist aide of the House. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion ••• ... ... 103 Against it ••• ••• ... ... 170 Majority ••• ... ... --67 The announcement of the numbers was greet 94 with loud cheers by the minority. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the Rouse of Commons. MONDAY, JULY 9. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE. The following Resolution was reported from the above Committee : Tt►at in the case of the North Staffordshire Railway (New ca:tle and Silverdale Branch Amendment Act) petition, the standing orders ought not to be dispensed with.—Report to lie on the table. PARLIAMEN TAR Y DI VISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Coninarts.i TUESDAY, JULY tO. CHURCH OF IRELAND. Motion made, and Questi ci put, " That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole Howe, to con• cider the present state of the Temporalities of the Church u: Ireland." The House divided: — MINORITY—AYES, 103. Adair, R. A. Harris, Richard Pearson, Charles Agliunby, 11. A. Headlam, T. E. Peellell, Captain Aleock, Thomas Henry, Alexander Feb.° Samuel Armstrong, R. B. Heywood, James Pilkington, James Bass, M. T. lleyworth, L. Pinney, W. Berkeley, Henry F. Hindley Charles Power, Dr. Berkeley. C. L. G. Hodges, T. L. , Rawdon, Colonel Bernal, Ralph Hodges, T. Twisden Reynolds, John Birch, Sir Thomas Ilollond, Robert Ricardo, Osman Blake. Martin J. Howard, C. W. Robartes, T. J. Bouverie, E. P. Hume, Joseph Salwey, Colonel Bright, John Jackson, William Scully, Francis Brotherton, J. Kershaw, James Shafto, It. D. Bunbury, E. li. King, P. J. Smith, R. V. Burke, Sir Thomas Langston, J. H. Smith, J. Benjamin Callaghas, D. Locke, Joseph Spearman, IL J Clay, James Lushington, C. Strickland, Sir G. Cobden, R. ' 31`Cullagh, W. T. Stuart, Lord Dudley Colebrooks, Sir T. Mahon, O'Gorman Tancred, 11. W. Davie, Sir Henry Mangles, R. D. Ihicknesse, R. A. I)'Eyncourt, C. T. Martin, Samuel Thompson, Colons Duncan, Viscount Melguud, Viscount Thompson, George Duncan, George Milner, W. M. Thornely, T. Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, A. T. Tollemache, F. J. Evans, John Molesworth, Sir W. Trelawny, J. S. Ewart, William Monsell, William Wall, C. B. Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Walmsley, Sir J. Fergus, John Mostyn, E. Wawn, J. T. Fordyce, A. D. Mowatt, Francis Williams, John Fortescue. Chichester Nugent, Sir Percy Wlllyams 11. Fox, W. J. O'Brien, J. Wood, W. P. Gibson, T. M. O'Connell, John Greene, John O'Connell, M. J. TELLER!!. Grenfell, C. Pascoe O'Connor, Feargus Osborne, Ralph Grenfell, Charles W. O'Flaherty, Anthony Roche, E. B. Grosvenor, Lord R. Ogle, S. C. MAJORITY—NOES, 170. Acland, Sir T. D. Gordon, Admiral Napier, Joseph Ashley, Lord Gore, W. R. 0. Neeld,.John Bagshaw, John Goulburn. Henry Newdegate, N. Baines, M. T. Graham, Sir James Newry, Viscount Bankes, G. Granby, Marquis of Sieholl, John Baring, 11. B. Greene' Thomas O'Brien, Sir Lucius Baring, Sir F. Grey, Sir G. Packe, C. W. Bateson, Thomas Grey, It. ST. Paget, Lord Clarence Beckett, W. . Grogan, Edward Pakington, Sir J. Bentinck, Lord H. Halsey, T. I'. Palmer, Robert iseresford. William Hamilton, 0. A. ' Parker. John Boldero, H. G. Hamilton, J. H. Patten, W. Bowles, Admiral Hamilton, Lord C. Peel, Sir Robert iramston, T. W. Harris, Captain Pennant, Colonel Bremridge, Richard Hawes, Benjamin Plowden, W. H. Brisco, M. Hay,:Lord John Pluinptre, J. P. Broadley, 11. Ilayes,:Sir E. Price, Sir Robert Bromley, Robert llayter, W. G. Reid, Colonel Brooke, Sir A. B. Ileneage, G. H. W. Repton, G. W. J. Burrell, Sir C. Herbert, 11. A. Rich, Henry Cardwell, E. Herries, - John C. Romilly, Sir John Cavendish, W. G. Hervey, Lord A. Rushout, Captain Chichester, Lord J. Hildyard, It. C. Russell, E. - Childers, J. W. Iliiiiyard, T. B. Itptherfard, A. Christopher, R. Hill, Lord E. Scrope, G. P. ' Christy, Samuel llobliouse, Sir John Seymour, Sir H. Cobbold,- J. C. Hodgson, W. N. Sheridan, R. B. Cocks, 'l'. q. • • - Hood, Sir A. .. Simeon, John Colvile, C. R. Hope, A. Smyth, J. G. Compton, li. C. Hallam, Lord Somerville. Sir W. Corry, H. Howard, Sir R. Sotheron, T. H. S. Cubitt, William Jermyn, Earl Spooner, Richard Darner, Colonel Jervis, Sir John Stattnrd, Augustus Deedes, W. Johnstone, Sir J. Stuart, H. Denison, J. E. Jones, Captain Stuart, J. Disraeli, B. tier, Richard Taylor, r. E. Duckworth, Sir J. Knox, Colonel Thesiger, Sir F. Dundas, Admiral Labouchere, Henry- Townshemi„ captain Dundas, Sir David Lacy, D. C. Turner, G. J. Dunne, F. P. Lascelles, W. S. Tyrell, Sir J. Du Pre, C. G. Legh, G. C. Vesey, T. East, Sir J. B. Lewis, George C: Villiers, Viscount Ebrington, Viscount Lewl , ham, Vii. Vivian, J. E. Egerton, Sir P. . Lindsay, Colonel Walpole, S. li. Egerton, W. T. Littleton, E. R. Walter, John Elliot, John E. Lockhart, W." Watkins, Colonel Esicourt, J. B. B. Lopes, Sir Ralph Wellesley, Lord C. Farnham, E. B. Lygon, Gen. Williamson, Sir R. Ferguson, Sir It. Martin, C. W. Wilson, James Fitzpatrick, J. W. Maule, Fox Wilson, Matthew Floyer, John Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wodehouse, E. Forbes, Wm. Miles, P. W. S. Wood, Sir Charles Fox, S. L. Miles, William Wyld, James Freestun, Colonel Morgan, 0. Young, Sir John Frewen, C. 11. Morris, David Galway, Viscount Mullings, J. R. TELLERS. Gladstone, W. E. Mundy, William . Tana, Henry Gooch,.E. S. Naas, Lord Cowper, W. F M. Cook A. Boyce GENERAL EDUCATION AND EX TENSION OF THE FRANCHISE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SIR,—In order to give the greatest impetus possible to the spread of voluntary education among the poorer classes, let the test of qualification for exer cising the elective franchise be an educational one and not a property one; or, in other words, "give the vote to a man because he is a man, not because he has purchased some earth or some bricks and mortar." It will be admitted by all that an educated man is better qualified to exercise the elective franchise than an uneducated man, but the difficulty is, if education is to be the test, where to draw the line of demarca aon between the one and the other. To remove this difficulty, let every man (not being a pauper nor con victed of crime) who can solve correctly rule of three questions in arithmetic have a vote. Thus the line would be clearly defined, the principle of universal iuffrage in its only healthy aspect would be adopted, and the vote given to a man because he is a mar?. In going through this test he wouP show his ca pability to read, write, and use his reasoning facul ties, all of which must certainly be deemed necessary qualifications qualifications for an independent voter, and l all thwill.chh, being within the reach of the poor as we as e ric , would not, in that respect, be . le to the same ob jection as a property qualification. Now, to show that this qualification would bring in apriensoernet intelligent tr c i l e a d ss by of t i voters test to th . n a l n or w ro e w h , have ou a ld t ip,rdessternutc,klomffatyhevreengt bl ur t : r t ; o b a u s t se to rt u th v a e t th o e n m e-h fr a o l m f of the & di s f ra nchised, and to let the influence of the property qualification remain during the lives of the present voters, I would suggest that they should all remain on the register during the remainder of their lives, but that all new candidates for the elective franchise should be examined by the rule-of-three test, and then that they, like the old voters, when once on the register, should remain there for life. The suffrage would thus be gradually and safely extended as education became more widely d4used, the greatest and best portion of the working classes would be satisfied, and what is more important still, a most powerful impetus would be given to the poor to use every endeavour to get themselves and their chil dren educated by every means in their power, as it would then soon be felt to be a disgrace to be excluded from the franchise, the principal excluding causes being ignorance and crime. France is a sufficient warning to make us pause before we adopt universal suffrage without universal education ; and unlimited household suffrage would, I think, be little better, as it would not only bring in many uneducated men, but it would shut out num bers who are intelligent and well educated, but who happen not to be householders. If you can at any time spare room for this commu nication in your columns, as one of the working classes I shall feel obliged, as I am anxious that their condition should be improved, and I think that a judicious extension of the franchise ought to be the first important step in that direction. I am, Sir, yours obediently, \VM. \VRIGIITSON. Thorne, Yorkshire, July 9, 1849. TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. Sir,—On Monday night the principal debate was on the Scotch Marriages Bill. The ostensible object is to take steps for assimilating the Scottish law of marriage to the English. But the substantial object is to deprive Englishmen and Irishmen of the liberty arising out of the ancient Scottish institution of Gretna Green. It may appear ridiculous, but this is all there is in it. It is an attempt to draw closer the laws for what Addison or Steele in their day called " the preservation of the female game." Nobody doubts that game.preservers in general are a hotheaded and incapable race, exceedingly likely to be found overshooting their own m irk, and cutting the throat of their own interest. And there is no appearance of the pr. - server's of the female game making any exception to tie rule. Let the case be fairly examined, and see what it is that is contended for. A wealthy Englishman, a squire of broad acres, sees danger in any loophole for relaxation of the laws by which he has se.. cured certain powers over the marriage of his descend ants. Boys do not often insist on juvenile marriage; they prefer their liberty. It is his girls for whom he tears ; and the idea which haunts him is, that they will be led into marriage by some man whose acres or whose position in society shall not be cone spondent to his own. There shall be no attempt to deny the evil ; undeniably it is what a man may justifiably endeavour to resist. But is he taking the way to diminish the danger? Suppose the case of such an untoward event disturbi, g the drawing -room tranquillity of a well-regulated family. A daughter, unable to resist the attentions of " her heavy dragoon," has consented to marry Lieutenant Spanker who so much distinguished himself in the last steeple-chase, without waiting for legal age or parents' consent. And the lieutenant of her choice shall neither be a Sir Charles Grandison nor a reprobate, but what is commoner than either, a man who would not do a wrung gratuitously, and yet not above the lia bility of yielding to temptation if forced upon him. He carries off the daughter; and under the existing state of things, the next post but one brings a penitent letter from the two whom a Gretna Green marriage has made one, hoping forgiveness, and the military leader in particular coveting nothing so much as to be asked to take wive by his new governor under the governor's own mahogany. But suppose the squire to have carried the alteration in the law, the literary corrmunications then take a very different turn. Instead of the swift advertisement that nothing is wanted but forgiveness, in a long week comes a letter, transmitted through the porter of the Junior United Service and suggesting an answer through the same irreproachable functionary, stating the ear best desire of the military partisan to have immediately married Miss --, but regretting that he found it to be impossible. Without the smallest wish of his own, he finds he must keep her for a fortnight, which is the shortest time within which the law will give his conscience ease; and in the meantime he ex presses an anxiety to know what the sEctionate parent will do towards encouraging him in the good resolutions be is treasuring tor the conclusion of that period. He assures him his daughter is well; and thinks she finds the country agreeable. Is the condition of this respectable family mended, or is it not? The Bill was so near being thrown out (being saved only by a majority of 73 against 68), that there is every probability of its being given up. But nominally it stands for discussion again on Thursday. On fuesday the motion for a Committee on the Irish Church occupied the whole of the eight. It something is not done, what is to be the result when fifty thou sand Americans are threatening Windsor Castle? The debate, with few exceptions, was conducted with great mo• deration, sin index et approaching action on the subject. And this exp ctation was encouraged by a divii.un of 03 in support of the Committee, to 170 a e ainst it. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER. London, July 11, 1849. ROYAL THAMES REGATTA. FIRST DAY. Th© great national aquatic nit„eting at Putney, which has been the all engros.ing topic of conversation for some time past, commenced yesterd : iy, and was more than usually attractive. Although this event has for a considerable period formed the chief feature of the season there seems to be an opinion afloat that its existence is near its close, the principal causes assigned for its discon tinuance being the gradual &cline of the funds, and the difficulty of finding persons willin g to incur the trouble and responsibility necessary to produce a regatta of this " Leviathan" character, with anything like a proper degree of spirit. As similar rumours have been previ ously rife with respect to the discontinuance of this aquatic festival,many persons are sanguine enough to look forward to our next year, but others, well acquainted with river sports, entertain an opinion that, under the direction of the Leander Club, who were mainly instrumental in es• tablishing this regatta, in 1843, air] upon whom much of the responsibility has fallen, a series of periedical races during the summer will be produced. Be that as it may, we deeply regret that there should be even a rumour of its discon tinuance—it is purely a British pastime, and ought to be supported by all who value our national sports, and it cannot be said that the example of royalty is wanting, as the name of Prince Albert is amongst the most liberal of ifs support•rs. Should the present Hon. Sec. (Mr. Fells), one of the Leinder Club, who has, for upwards of three years, discharged the onerous duty most effi ciently, retire, the interests of the rrgatts, there can be no doubt, will bo most seriously affected, but it is to be hoped that he may be induced to continue his valuable services. The weather was extremely fine, and the company by far exceeded in numbers the assemblage of the last two or three years; indeed, since the establishment of the regatta, we may safely say tint wo never saw a greater number of boats afloat, while Putney and Hammersmith Bridges, and every other place, from which a view could be obtained of the rowing, including the vast extent of towing-path, was crowded with anxiou , spectators, and the river and shores presented a coup d'ceil of the most animated descrip ion. There were eleven races upon the card, presenting the variety of from fours down to sculls. Tho sports com menced at half-past three, and continued up to nearly er eight in the evening; the re g ulations throughout w e admirable, and reflect the utmost credit upon the Secre tary and Committee. Champion Four Oared Race for IGO soya., open to all the world. sc. Agnes, London and Newcastle .. (Green) 1 It. Coownes R. Clap er T. Coombes I H. Cla. per J. Clasper, cockswain. Watermen's Crew, Oxford (Purple) 2 I W. Venabies W. Penn W. Weft, cockswain. Toe Perseverance, Chelsea ... (Stripe) 0 T. Chettle I T. Holmes G. Hesler B. Herring W. Godwin. cockswain. This was the great event of he day. In this race, open to all the world, there had been a union between the Thames and the Tyne, the St. Agnes's crew consist. ir.g of the champions of the two rivers and their brothers; and opposed to them were a crew of London watermen, who had last year, owing to an unfortunate circumstance, been deprived of the opportunity of testing the claim of superiority, and who now again stood forth, a crew fro . n Durham, and two others. The Claspers and Coombeses are known as opponents against each other in a pair-oar wager about two years ago, when the Coombeses wer e victorious over their two coadjutors of yesterday. It 16 said that circumstances, not inclination, exactly cul'ducttel, to the union on the part of Coombes. T he cel ebri ty this Claspers had acquired in their victor i e s former eeon the p a ar, port, and the fair claim to superior exceli t en he head of the he e i d rof the " national," placed this crew was list as the favourites, and when i t daily practice, for the last weekor so,asthia6tunthdeybyrotw with great regularity, and were not affected by each other's style, they were backed at e ven against the field. The race extended from Putney to Chiswick Ait. Tho w inners too k the lead and kept it well, coming in first by two lengths. The Oxford and Chelsea crew made a gallant race of it for some distance, when the Oxonians want away, and although at lianunersmith-brids,ge, they fouled a barge, and broke a thawl, they continued their position. Second Heat. The" Never-mind it," London ... . Alq I iinnny Newiil .. Doubludee Pocock W. Cox, Cockswain. The Feathers Crew, WaudswoNh ... (Pink) 2 T. J• rues I G. Cowper J. Salter 1 G. Salter S. Salter, Cockswain. Itazeppa Crew, Durham ..• (Yellow and Black) 0 W. Foster W. Howson W. G. Mo I n H. Eddy W. :ureter, Cockswain. (Red) 1 (Light Blue) 9 E. Woulhpu3s R. E. h alley H. Birkin 'r s, Cockswain. -; Next to the united crew of the Combeses Claspors, the " Newer-mind-4" %v, re the favourites, and many did _ti • •. not indeed hesitate to express their conviction that they would be found competent to defend the high character of superiority which the London watertnen have so emi nently attained, while others regretted that anything should hove occurred to have caused the necessity of a division of their .strength. The Durham crew were next in request. Brocas Crew, Etoa E. Windsor G. Hill It was a fair start; after which Red began to draw a head, and off the _committee-barge had cleared them selves. The other two made a very close race for E ome distance, when Pink took the second place. The Never• mind •it won by a length and a half; the third crew were two lengths behixd the second; the other nowhere. Grand Heat. The beautiful stylo exhibited in tha St. Agnes, not withstanding the capital work exhibited in the Never mind-it, made the former the favourite at slight odds, and it was justly considered from what bud been wit nessed thst the race would be entirely between :these two. The assemblage At this time amounted to many thousand,•, who exhibited the utmost anxiety to see the decision. The St. Agnes crew ... 1 The Never ... 2 It was certainly a most gallant race; they all went away together at a most exttuordinary pace, anti after a few strokes the two c: ack crows began to show their hesda in trout, the St. Aguei with about half a yard of lead. At the committee-barge the St. Agnes had got half their length clear, and the other plrty putting o❑ a desperate spurt, decreased it in the next few.strokes by a tootor so, but the others, v ith their fine even beautifully last ing style, gradually stole away from them, but were closely pressed by the Never-mind•it, who exhibited throughout the greatest game and determination, but could not better their fortune. The St. Agnes won by a length. Apprentices' Match, for a Coat, Badge, and Freedom, the presentation or E. Morris, Esq. First Heat. R. Rush, Westminster (Stripe) 1 R. J. Scott, Southwark ... (Black) 2 H. Fuller, Lambeth ~. ... (Green) 0 P. W. Hells, ditto ... (Purple) 0 Two others started. Rush led almost immediately after the ►tart, kept it, and won by a length. The se cond and third men made a vary spirited race—all, in deed, rowed very gallantly.. Second Heat. J. Chitty, Richmond ... (Yellow and White). 1 G. Shaw, Westminster... ... (Light Blue) 2 G. Penn, Twickenham... ... (Red and Yellow) 0 R. T. Morton, Lamb;•th .. (Black and Yellow) 0 Two others start, d. Yellow and White shortly sitar the start fouled a barge, and were thrown back, which gave Black and Yellow and Blue the advantage of posi tion. Notwithstanding the accidcnt, the winners went to work with much game, and placed their opponents in succession, winning by their own length. Grand Heat. J. Chitty, Richmond G. Shaw, Westminster... This was deoidtd to be a dead heat. It was through out a good spirited race, but the river was so studded with boats that the men's course was oft impeded, and Rush, upon some accident, capsized, while Yellow and White was fouled near home by a skiff, but, notwith standing, endeavoured to regain his position of first man which he had lost by the foul, and rowed in abreast of his adversary. Watermen Scullers for 30 Sovereigns. First Heat. Joseph Leach ... ... (Red and White) 1 Thomas Cole ... (Yellow and Black) 2 John Wilson ...(Light Blue) 0 William Forest ... (Blue and White) 0 Two others started. It was a must excellent race; they were altogether nearly half the distance with scalcely anything that could be galled a lead. The winntr then drew right away and came in first by two lengths; it was a game contest tor second place. Second Heat. J. A. Messenger ... ••• (Yellow) 1 John Rao ••• ••• ... (Purple) 2 George Henderson ... (Pink) 0 R. Messam ••• (Red) 0 Two others started. It was a good race throughout, the men being in a cluster for two or three minutes. Messenger soon went in front and won cleverly. Grand Heat. J. A. Messenger 1 J. Leach .., 0 A rapid start was seconded by Leach gaining an ad vance, closely waited upon by Rae and Cole. The win ner, who had the worst of the start, and who subse quently gave way to prevent a foul, soon rowed by the latter two, and at the point near the Crab-tree Chaffing and Leach, after being skull and skull for a few strokes, the winner went into the first place. Amateur Four-oared Race for a Silver Challenge Cup. The Thames Club, London ...(Pink) 1 Leander ditto ... ... (lied) 0 Ariel, Cambridge (Light illue) 0 St. George's, ditto (Red and White) 0 They were in a cluster for a tew strokes, and then the St. George's took a sl;ght lead for a few moments, which they, however, did not maintain, and gave place to the winners, who kept it all the way. The Leander made several plucky efforts for the second place, but were !culed by the Ariel, and had to make a sheer in towards the shore, the whole occurring in the heat of the race. Amateur Pair-oared Race, for Two Silver Crips. G. P. Edwards and F. Mai sham (Pink) 1 Berry and T. Bartley ... (Stripe) 0 F. G. Chiflingworth and J.D. Chillingworth 0 The winners, after the first two or three minutes, did as they liked. They went off with the lead, kept it, and won by some lengths. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. LIVERPOOL, TUESDAY EVENING. Tho following is a cumplute list of the arrivals up to the present time. Premier, e Cu bynlvoolliiche,leßsohean, Mot,Sj I Thringarth, Essed e riu s , S au t er l a C uu p o , an d Iv Va L ne Lamb 's T b wh Wool. FOR Two AND THREE YEAR OLD STAIEES.—C. by Irish Birdcatcher, dam by Dr. ,S)ntax—Lady GAYA, Potentia filly—Sicyon—f by Jerry, dam by Actsem— Cadger, f by Don John—out of Sister to Aidderby— Hammer and Tongs—Mahaseah—Probity=Catpain Grant—Shilmalier West—French Susy—Leonidas— Steppingstone—the Italian—Sweetheart,—Denbury — Arena—Marriott—f b Gladiator, out of Lolly pop—f by Gladiator, out of Mareschina—the Knight of Anvel,—Tingles—f by Charles the Twelfth, out of Fury—Harum Scarum—f by Jerced, out of Muff—Voyager—Timothy—Colleen Rhue, all two yr olds—the Flying Dutchman—Belus Old Dan Tucker —Chantrey—Roland—Strongbow—Elthiron — Cigare t t e —Circus the Widow Magician Penthesilea—and several others for the Plates. LIVERPOOL. WEDNESDAY MORNING. LATEST CUP BETTING. (BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.) 7to 4 agst Thringartn 6to 1 agst John Cosser I 2to I agst Essedarius ltt to 1 agst Keleshea. BE ['TING AT MANCHESTER.—TUESDAY. LIVERPOOL Cur.-2 to 1 agst Teringarth (t):-5 to 2 agst E-sedarius (0-8 to 1 agst Keleshea (0-8 to 1 agst John Cosser (t)-12 to I not Westow (t). GOODWOOD STAKES.-10 to 1 agst Maid of Meehan' (t)-11 to 1 agst Fernhill-12 to 1 agst Topharia- 12 to 1 agst Syrup—Plito 1 agst Giselle-16 to 1 agstWall• flower. CRICKET._ KENT v. ENGLAND. The uitshhi:d,garsandon match yesterday, day:byaver a y t d e 's, r w en a e s w d a i l stin o g f o c la ro rg w e d u ed tte t n h d e a g n r c o e u o n f d, sp a e n e d ta .i t t or w s. as S t e h r e ersautjec l t t . hOrl ds remarkagain that the muster of persons of distinction was even more numerous than on the first day of the contest. A refer ence to the score will inform the reader, that having been headed by England on the first innings by 44 runs, Kent went in for their second hands, when 101 resulted from their efforts. Of these Pilch obtained 34, Mr. Felix, 16 ; llinkly, 15 ; Adams, 11 ; Martin gell, 10; whilst all the rest made but single figures only. England then went in to obtain 57 to tie, or 5$ to win, and it will he seen the' the required number wIS I got with seven wickets to spare. The final score was SI follows : KENT. W. Pilch, b Widen 5 c Riddling b Dean ... 6 Holland, b WiAden ... 6 b Clarke Martingell, b lillywhite 7 b Wisden ~ ... . ......... 10 F. Pilch, b Wisden A. Mynn, Esq., b Lyllywhite 3 b Dean ..............••• Adams, b Lillywhite 2 not hut ... ..... ......... 11 N.Felix.E , q.,c Dean,b Wisden 19 b Clarke .. .••• •••••• 16 Martin, b Lillywhite .. 5 b Wi5den.............. 1 Ilillyer, b Lillywhite... . , Clifford, b Wisden Hinkly, not out 0 b Lillywhite lb lives .... 6 13yca •.. ..... ..... 2 83 —, ENGLAND. A. Haygarth, Esq., b Hillyar 0 a Clifford ) b Holland lb Is q•, 1 . / ... 1% . 1 ......... 20 1 b Myna 4* 24 oWe.anNbilioilf joyneor Box c 'W. Pilch, b Hillyer... 12 not out I'Arr b 211ynn ...................42 not out ••• 10 Chester b Hinkly Guy, not out 0 C. Bidding. Esq.,l bwb Dlynn 3 Wisden, b Mynn Clarke, s Clifford b DI 0 ' nY 11 Lillywhite, b Dlynn Byes 9 , Wide I 10 Byes ... .•.... ..... 7 127 England won by seven wickets. [A DV ERTISEM EN T.] —The unfailing success of Hol• oway's Pills and Ointment in the Cure of Ringworm, and all Diseases of the Skin.—A medical gentleman, residing at Lima whose child had been severely afflicted with Ringworm for bl.eryaallwnlagary with upwards of six years, tried every known remedy to cure this dreadful disease but in vain, as it was of so inveterate a cha• racier as to baffle the skill of himself and other practi,tionert. As a last resource he was persuaded to use Holloway e OM. ment and Pills, these medicines having obtained muc h cele brity in all parts of South America, and Chef had rhe . happy effect of soundly curing the child and perfect 7 eradicating the 244, Strap , on ols. disease from the system.—Sold by all.DrugdgiLsts, gi ant' at Pre lessor Holloway's Establishment , DIEPPE RAILWAY. —At the general . meeting just livid in Puri. Count D'Alton Lhco in the chair, the report s tated t hat' the receipts for the first eight months' v• - oi king of the lino amounted. to 341,133 C., and the eit• large majoritybs l ance forof 544m,6,310edf. A and th• number of the di rectors was reduced from nine workingA tr t a u t the Havre line, so iv* t rwatacost e2 oF s o t t he S 1 .00 ~~