The Sun. — London, England, 1828-06-14 00:00:00

FMK of, or roduce eh the 0 bad d bee° ileac eluded hare' as first 'ogress wbo fit in- F,l ant tisfac- and bstan- Tpool, prAC rtgu- dif- -0 the the eritip lisrly their ci the re of rohi f the hould order veril priu- giela. ~,:- i t are last veer. It was very true that last Session he con • sidered the measure as a temporary one. They hail expe- Vence of its effects since then, and endeavoured in this "Jill to avoid the errors of the former. It appeared to him t hat they hail succeeded in avoiding tlaen, at leapt in a great part. Ile recommended this 111:!!, because the duty 'night he so varied as to amount to an absolute prohibition. If their Lordships did not adopt the principle on which it PLfteeded, o f a d u ty var yi ng w ith th e p r i ce , w here wer e . , u2 Y to go? They who opposed this principle did not " d ggest any other. The groat evil of a prohibitory system *48 3 that it occasioned corn to be locked up in warehouses, W hich when the price rose, was suddenly thrown into the Pa t; ar let, and thus produced all the evils of sudden fluctua .ll". The great advantage of this Bill was, that while it a v owed the introduction of small quantities of corn, it L' et eoted the country against an extraordinary Zwas clear that it had not excited h ostility t he part of the agriculturists, for no petitions were pre ,-jted against it. He trusted their Lordships would per bliit to b e re a d a second time, and not prevent th e esti ,,._ -.tent of that good understanding between the menu a aio+, - mring and agricultural interests which it was likely to Lord"MAL3IESIII7ItY explained. ▪ t orel-BEDESDALE said, the late system tended to pro- MU, l a speculation, and it was to that his greatest objections and y' He wished the merchants and manufacturers would ~- 7 ,1 34 to this, that what is the produce of the country costs nothing, what is brought in costs something. This was a 1 n 4 ,0n of political economy, if he might use the words.— ril t ue production of corn at home, the capital, land, and 'user of the country were employed. That was not the '• With the produce of foreign countries. This was the n why they should employ as much as possible their - ‘vn /and. It would be absurd to employ it in the produc tiou t) , of wine or sugar, ,because the soil was pot adapted to The produce of the country was, in fact, the sup riZt of the.popnlation, and of every branch of industry.— land was the capital from which every other article was bk _jise Duke of WELLINGTON said, • the tendency of CAIiIH was to prevent w arehousing , because, as the price t 'l!,-tlie duty ruse. Th ere wou ld, the re f ore , b e l ess temp tlilon to warehousing than under the former system. In 4 4 6 1 under a s y s t em o f a b so l u t e p ro hibiti on , or very of Cl r. se, corn came out of bond without the payment lin duty, or a very small duty. NOthing of thatd of d happ en now, as speculation in the warehousing corn could not be cal tied to so great an extent. It t true, as the Noble Lord hail of red, that, under measure ()float Session, the price of oats and barley rose ‘"gler in proportion than that ofcorn. They were, perhaps, t Vuly favoured. They were specially protected in that t , Wheu the present m easure came to h e we lt consi hltsd, it appeared that it would be inexpedient to kee the E4lion so high. The Noble d (Malmesbury p ) ob- Zed to the mod e o f t a ki ng th e averages , as I re l an d was included. Had this been done, it would have given t 0 many complaints anti inconveniences which it was a rea would not he counterbalanced by any equivalent 1 ... /141, see. The great object of the Bill was to afford a it ;g'onabl e and sufficient degree of protection, and to avoid b ro t4 Ooh as possible the evil of fluctuation. The quantity k l ,Ught hit.° the market last year was inconsiderable.— t the entered at 225. Bd. and about 140,000 qrs. at IL ; but, on the Ist of May, after these 140,000 qrs. • keen brought out, a large quantity still remained in „;.Isareliouses. 'heir Lordships then divided— Contents—Present Proxies Non-contents—Present.. Proxies 7-19 Majority -67 A was ordered to be committ e d on Tu es d a y. '.ionrn e d at Ten o'Cloek. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Joist 13. teks soo n as th e SPEAKER took the Chair, t h e Ri g h t 1314 ° :!. T. P. C OURTE N A Y to o k t he maths and his seat, his re-election after accepting the office of 14 - President of the Board of Trade. ti ` r 'Ord G. LENNOX presented is petition from the geons of Chichester, praying that facilities might \4frorded to the Study of Anatomy. D i Ir. WODEHOUSE presented petitions from q i : it t's in Caernarvon, praying for the abolition of rery, from t! BENETT presented a similar petition fro ' ll thabitants of Warminster. ' 11 1'• LOTT presented a petition from the 3ier ii, Ilts, Agriculturists, and other inhabitants of ,-- t :li.rister, in favo ur o f the c i r c u l a ti on t) f sma ll notes . H. SMITH presented a petition from th e i',l,tLl:tants of Colchester and its vicinity, praying S ir e Abolition of Slavery. ita uk ,_ll. VIVIAN presented a p e ti t i on f rom t h e r. t .;rlarits of Callington, against any fu r th er con :4 to the Catholics. 1 11' s it a• VIVIAN also presented a petition from ( ar se 4 l place, praying for a tax on the importation e 8 sh wool. tis lr It PARNELL moved for a return of copies Ve memorials from the Commissioners of the t4 4 e b ll'.lbury an d H o lyh ea d R oa d s , re l a ti ve t o th e k e l hhmerit of the steam-packets from the latter C„;,i_t° kitre'lnel WILSON presented a petition f r o m th e the ants and inhabitants o f Whi t by, i n f avour o f k r ettlation of small Notes. 41 4 ( 'LIDDELL presented a petition from the Iron aroel.B and Collier's of Nottingham and Derby in k i l o r of the issue of Small Notes. F ea t „ 1. , (1 ALTHORP said, that owing to th e late tl the Session he felt it necessary t o p ostpone , k t ,. t ht year, the f ur th e r p r o gres s of th e F ree h o ld ers ' t; l tration Bill, and therefore moved, that the Bill et:lraitted this day three months.—Agreed to. tae ' t tl W. POULETT presented a petition f rom :itr, l. 4 fiabitants of Chester-le-Street, in favour of the Vtion of Small Notes. Also a similar petition k ! t he inhabit an t s o f S out h Shi e ld s . t . t`iiQ KNATCHBULL presented a petition tithe inhabitants of Lenham, in Kent, praying, o h j Protecting duty on • Wool. Al so a p e titi on f : t he inhabitants of the canto town, praying, for 's r l , r .lher protection against the importation of Wool. 'lt k • Alderman WA IT I I MAN presented a petition itrkLhe inhabitants of Smithfield, praying that the might not he removed from its present sit e . it t „, r It, • WILSON : said, that the butchers them ht h ad complained that the market was not large rt, C. BURRELL said, that a market for NWas much wanted at the West end of the much for the cont : cuience of the Las for the safety o f t h e pu bli c : if a mar k e t established, at th e W est end, i t wou ld 1 the i necessity of having c a t t l e d r i ven t h roug h 1 4 t r sts 'to the great terror and p er il o f women 41; ,141 (14 and to the detriment of the meat. !es Alderman WAITHMAN always felt that it e 3' r tsar the market should be enlarged.—Th e dlrq'll.Nrasthen ordered to lie on the table. LEWIS presented a petition from en- WisinSt the . Ale-house Licensing 1 1. • W. RIDLEY presented a B p i e l fro o u f i T - • inn' for the Abolition plc, pray fry `V , STERN presented th ree s i m il a r petitions \1 441i* ski n and Wethersby.- \VV' GRANT' presented a petition from the Ltraus o f R oss , praying f or a Tax an Foreign biC:ERGUSSON said, that th e greater port i on ii,'4„l; ° atal of S cot l an d was paid f rom thd fleece, t 4 t ' t h e thought the landed interest wer e no t d e - 0 1 . 1, - a tax on the importation of Forei gn W oo l . o„7'•• E NNEDY thought that the opinion was ;lil t -4 Nri s so ge ner al as h e su pposed, and it was tes for the Hon. Gentleman to speuk as if re it., ; 1 ,,Z do whole of the la n d e d interest. f ,'"-;RGUSSON explained. b iro BURRELL was surprised that the ' 4 , v (=. no explanation o f t h eir i ntent i o ns on the tyon t he. Wool trade. He expected a moderate 'lf. reign Weol. 'tkik KING said, that it wo u ld b e muc h better att: specific motion upon it, an d t h us cal l er of the House fairly t o th e su bj ec t, \%'-7' thus i ntro d uce a di scuss i on upon a pet '- ', ' l en a d u ty was propose d to b e ;)'reed on en Ma terial, t h ose w h o p ro p ose d i t s h ou ld state • t I w as that ca ll e d f or suc h a d uty, and then it as` that the wool grower was not con -1 n terVSt when he asked fora proted: ting duty. • , , • They should also say what duty ;t was that Theyre re- quired, instead of asking indefin i tely for a duty. Mr. BENETT said, that the duty required how was that which they had formerly possessed, during which possession it did not do any harm to the country. The fact was, that when the price of wool was reduced, a reduction took place also in the exportation, and landed estates in the West of Eng land had fallen in value at least 20 or 30 percent. Mr. C. GRANT did not think the members of the late Government were to blame For not bringing the subject before the House. For himself, he was ready to discuss the subject whenever it should be brought on. The Hon. Member then presented a petition from the woollen manufacturers of Galls shiels against a duty upon the importation of foreign wool; and also a petition from Southampton praying that foreign flour might be allowed to be manufac tured into biscuit for ships use. SMITHFIELD MARKET. Mr. GOADON moved that a Select Committee he appointed to inquire into the state of Smithfield Market, and to report their observations thereon to the House. Mr. Alderman WOOD objected to the appoint ment of a Committee at so late a period of the Session, as it was utterly impossible that the la bours of the Committee could be productive of any benefit; brit if the Honourable Member would postpone his motion until next session, it should have his (Mr. Ald. W.'s) support, and he should do all in his power to afford facilities to the Committee. He thought that the appointment of a Committee at this period would unsettle the minds of persons having property in the neighbourhood of the market. He defended the Corporation of London against the . attacks which were contained in the petition presented on a former night, and said that the Cor poration had made 'sevaraL attempts to remove the Smithfield market; but all their efforts were de feated by majorities of that House, by which the Bills brought into Parliament by the Corporation of London were thrown out. Since the Bill last brought in by the Corporation, the market had been enlarged one-fifth. He moved as an amendment, that the consideration of the subject should he postponed to next session. Mr. BENETT opposed the amendment. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said the petitions presented against Smithfield market, and upon which was founded the present motion, were got up by a party with a solicitor at their head, wholly ignorant of the real state of the market, or of the trade carried on there, and whose only wish in doing away with this market was to promote a job which they had concoct ed, for erecting buildings in lieu of this market. He denied time truth of the complaints contained in that pe tition, arid wished to call the attention of the House to the fact, that those petitioners did not attempt to point out any remedy for the supposed evil. He contended, that neither in Paris, or any other city in Europe, were slaughter-houses bettor conducted than in the neighbourhood of Smithfield market. The Corporation of London were most anxious to do every thing in their power to accommodate the public, and hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Gordon) would let the subject lie over until next Session, and if he came fOrward then with any reasonable plan, it would meet with no opposi tion from those connected with the City of London. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that after the candid admission made by the Hon. Alderman, he thought the Hon. Alderman might waive his objection to the appointment of a Committee. For his own part, he (Mr. Peel) was favourable to laying a foundation for the inquiry by the appointment of a Committee this Session. Mr. R. GORDON. disclaimed all intention of throwing an . imputation on the Corporation of Lon don. All that he (Mr. G.) asked for was a Com mittee of inquiry. Mr. Alderman ATKINS recommended the post ponement of the inquiry until the next Session. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON resisted the mo tion on two grounds-tirst, that there was not time for inquiry•during the present Session; and, secondly, that the statements put forth were unfounded, he thought the subject should be allowed to lie over until next year. The Gallery was then cleared for a division; but it was.understood that the House did not divide, and that the motion for a Committee was agreed to. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. A Message was brought from the Lords to state that their Lordships had agreed to the Covent-garden Market Improvement Bill. RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS. Mr. Secretary PEEL brought in a Bill for the more easy recovery of Small Debts, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next, and to be printed. BANK NOTES (SCOTLAND AND IRELAND) RILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in moving the order of .the day for the second reading of the Bank Notes (Scotland and Ireland) Bill, observed, that he had communicated with some Hon. Gentlemen opposed to this measure, and that an arrangement was made, in which he hoped the, House would concur, that the discussion on the Bill should be taken upon bringing up the report, and that the Bill should now be read a second time without entering into the discussion. Mr. PORTMAN wished to enter his proo2st against the Bill, and against the principle which his Majesty's Government sanctioned by the suppression of the Small Note circulation. Ile thought the measure would be injurious to the landowners, the traders, and all classe s of persons. Sir JAMES GRAHAM willingly acquiesced in the arrangement entered into to postpone the dis cussion until the bringing up of the report. He might state, however, that his objection to the principle of the measure remained unabated. Mr. HUME said, it was his intention on this oc casion to have stated his objections to the principle of the Bill, and be meant in the Committee to pro pose a clause obliging every issuer of notes periodi cally to return to the Treasury an account of the number of notes issued by him. In fact, the clause was the same as that which he (Mr. Hume) pro posed in 1826. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the, Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Siipply. Colonel DAVIES said, that before the House went into a Committee, he had a resolution to move by way of instruction to the Committee, to the effect, " that it is expedient to consider the revenue of the country and the expenditur e of the army, with a view of reducing this branch of the service as low as it was iu 1823, or as it could be brought consistent with the public security." In moving this resolution he should trouble the House with a few words. The Army Estimates were now before the Committee, and it was .understood that the Finance Com mittee would not report on this branch of the expenditure this Session. He had the greatest respect for the Mem bers of that Committee, i ndividually and collectively, but he could not set out of view that there was not a single Member of that Committee connected with the three great branches of the public service. With respect to the Army who had the Committee examined? There were the Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston, the Adj u t ant -G enera l, and the Quarter-Master-General. If the Committee were desirous of receiving information as to the expediency of keeping a large fiirce, there were n o persons more likely to afford up Ordthem all the information they could desire on that point than those they examined ; but if the'object was r e _ duction, there were no witnesses whose evidence wa s , l ess likely to lead to that result. He did not blame the Finance Committee. They very properly commenced . by examini ng persons of hi g h ra nk, and he knew it teas difficult ttcbfind persons not in office who weredis p osed to offerthemselves. He (Colonel Davies) believed that no evidence on Ole state of the army, which an officer could give before a Finance Committee, would snake any difference with the Doke of Wellingt on , b u t thi s was the feclinz that pre vailcd and prevented persons from offering themselves. Without going much into detail he would beg the House for a moment to consider what the means of the country were. His golden era was in 1823 ; he did not go so far back a 3 1792 ; 1823 was a year of peace, but the peace of Europe was then threatened by the lawless aggression com mitted by France in hur invasion of Spain. In 1823 the gross income,uriting from taxation, leaving out of the ac count all the trickery batweeu the Bank of raigland and the Government, which. only tended to confuse and swell the amount on paper, was 61,300,0001. This was the in come in 1623, but in 1827 this income fell to 58,417,7281.; and supposing, for argument, that the revenue fur the pre sent year, will be the same as that for the last year. there is a decrease in the revenue since 1823 of 2,883,2721. If an individual was encumbered with debt, and in stead of diminishing, it was increasing, whilst the income was diminishing, what would be thought of that individual's affairs, and yet that was precisely the case with the country ?, He . would now state the gra dual increase which had taken place in our military force, since 1823, and the gradual increase in the charge of maintaining that force. In 1623, our military force con sisted of 69,144 men, and the charge for that force was 2,561,000/. In 1824, the number of men was 76,700, end the charge 2,734,0001. In 1825, the number of men was 86,893, and the charge 3,062,000/. In 1826, the number of men was 87,240, and the charge 3,157,000/. ; and in 1827, the number of men was 86,808, and the charge 3,159,000/. This year he took it for granted that the number of Dien and the charge would be about the same as last year. Thus they were going on year after year, increasing rapidly in their career of expence. But this was not all, the troops in India had in creased from 19,800 to 25;000. It might be said those troops were not an expence to this country, but he believed he was warranted in saying that our finances in India were not in a very satisfactory state. The total expenditure of this country for the army, the navy, and miscellaneous services was now 17,815,0001., to which he did not add the ex penditure of money for public works, which was 1,283,0001. The whole expenditure in round numbers, therefore, was 19,000,000/., whilst in 1823, the whole expenditure was only 16,800,000/, so that there was an increase between the expenditure of the present year and that 'of 1823 of 2,228,000/., to which, if they added the decrease of the revenue, which was 2,287,400/, the country was worse off this year than it was in 1623, by a sum of 5,116,0001. Now, he asked, was it possible to go on in this way ? He believed that, in the situation of the country, no new taxes coda lit laid on, and sinless new taxes were im posed, or a reduction took place in the public ex pences, it was clear that the country could not go on. He did not call for the reduction of those establish ments on which the honour and security of the country depended. He only referred to 1823, when a Ministry, not famed for economy, did not think of proposing the same military establishments which it was now proposed to keep up. He thought arrangements might be made with respect to our Colonial garrisons, which would prevent the ex yence and loss occasioned by the constant recalling of troops. By the present arrangement 6,000 or 7,000 men were always at sea, and were of no use. If a garrison of a thousand men were to be relieved, the relief had a voy age to take, perhaps ofsome months ; those who were re lieved were then the saute time returning, and a large body of men were thus constantly kept going and coming. He only proposed an extension of the system now in existence. With respect to the regiments in India, if it was a punish ment for them to remain there, it was a punishment they would enter into themselves. There was another point to which lie wished to direct the attention of the House— he meant the system of depot companies, which was a great injury to discipline, and a system very injurious in its ef fects ; 13,000 officers and wen were rendered ineffective by this system. He believed the Noble Duke wished to make every practicable reduction, but he should be assisted by Parliament. As the Duke of Wellington had vanquished the enemies of Isis country in the field, be would -do that country a still greater benefit by restoring it to prosperity, by a reduction of its expenditure. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the resolution. Sir HENRY HARDINGE hoped the Hen. Member (Col. Davies) itiquld not think it disrespectful if he ab st►ined front snaking any reply to his observations until the House went into Committee. Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN supported the resolution. Mr. MONCK observed, that in no despotic state was there a dead weight so large as that of this country. Mr. HUME wished to knew what occasion there was for keeping up this year an army of 90,000 infantry ? He could account for it on no other ground than that his Ma jesty's Government were fond of large armies, and the pa tronage they threw into their hands. Including the navy, the artillery, the volunteers, the militia, staff, the yes. manly, and the constabulary force of Ireland, we had meetly 150,000 men in arms. He was glad the Govern ment had not precipitated the country into a war, and as he hoped they did not mean to do so, what use could they have for such a force as this? He feared this country was going on as the Noblesse of France before the French Revolution. He was not opposed to a standing army upon principle.— It might at one time have been contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, but now. be was sure it was an integral and au economical point of our Constitution. He was always averse to changes in - the Ministry, and had Mr. Canning lived the Estimates would have been very different this year, for he knew that he had given orders for the reduction of the Estimates to the extent of one million and a half. The moment he was gone, however, his plans were changed, and the reduction no longer thought of. But he might as well speak to the winds as to that House. The Gallant Member opposite, the Secre tary at War (Sir 11. Ilardinge), he hoped would effect the saute reductions in the army which he had effected in the Ordnance. He gave him credit for what he did there, hut he did not do half enough. He was quite sure that the three establishments might be reduced from 16 millions to 12, allowing five millions for the dead weight. If the military gentlemen in civil office would • but divest them selves of the idea of Waterloo and the Ist of June, and the navy the same, and not think the salvation of the 'country depended upon having the services in a state fit for imme diate action, all would go on well. We should remove taxation, reduce our military establishMent, and until then we never could make any progress in improvement, wherefore he should support the motion of his Honourable Friend. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by saying that the House could not be of a different opinion, and after asking pardon for having trespassed so long, said he would not go into all the details, which would occapy too much time. Mr. W. SMITH should abandon his duty. to the country if he did not hear his testimony to that part of the resolution which went to a reduction of the expenditure of the country. One of his reasons for supporting it was, that when details were alluded to, there was no describing the advantage which official persons had. It was impos sible for him to ascertain, whether in a particular instance an item of 5,5001. should be better than 6,7001., but this he was sure of that the country could not bear her ex pences which from year to year increased instead of dimi nishing the burden of debt also continuing, as it appeared fiorn the accounts submitted that the utmost amount of re duetiok which had taken place from 1815 up to the last two years, only came to 2,700,000/. It made but little difference even if it were 5,000,000,., because if in thir teen years of peace the improvement were not in a much greater ratio, there could be no greater absurdity than the idea of ever discharging the National Debt - . With respect to the comparison made between our present state, and that of F`rance in 1789, he did not believe that our condi tion would lead to revolution, but he thought it must to bankruptcy. The Amendment was then put !tad negatived without a division, and on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. BRIGHT r,,se to move an instruction to the Com mittee, when he was informed by the Speaker that no in struction could be moved to a Committee of Supply. Mr: BRIGHT then said, he was sorry be was in error, hut the question he wished to propound, was one of consi derable importance. His object was, that there should be a small-sum of money placed at the disposal of philosophi cal persons, 14 the purpose of investigating the natural productions of a part of our Colonies. Expeditions had lately been sent out under Captain Parry and others, and • the country had borne their expences ; in the last reign, voyages of discovery had • been carried on in the same way, and a great deal of good had been effected. The West India islands were the Colonies which he wished to have examined, as nothing of th e ki n l h a d ta k en p l ace there for near 100 years, wherefore he would w i s h t o have". small sum placed at the disposal of the Royal Society, to send out persons there to investigate their natural productions. The whole of South America had been visited for this pur pose, • nd it Was incumbent or. this country to look to the natural advantages of her own Colonies. His notion was that 1,0001. should be given this year, and as much next, ' and then if the Colonies did not proceed, they would, if advantage were to accrue from the investigation, have no excuse for not proceeding. An Hon. MEMBER asked whether an instruction could not be moved, when The SPEAKER said the Hen. Member should be aware that an instructh•in never could be moved to a Committee of Supply, and that nothing could be brought on in that Committee of which notice had not been given in detail, by the estimate la'd before the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as the subject could not he alluded to in the Committee, the House would perhaps pardon him for making an observa tion. That was the first time be had ever heard of there being any deficiency of information with respect to the West Indies, as there were few portions of his Majesty's dominions respecting which there were more minute details, tvilerefore he would not recommend any grant for the pur pose stated by the Hon. Member. The question was then put, the Speaker left the Chair, and the House went into Committee, ARMY ESTIMATES. Sir HENRY HARDINGE said thatabout three months ago his Noble Friend Lord Palmerston had moved the vote for the forces for the year, for the purpose of passing the Mutiny Bill, and obtained a sarn on account to the amount of 2,000,0001., leaving the future amount in the discre tion of the House, as if there li . ad been no vote, and every :Member at liberty to take any course that seemed proper to His. Hon. and Gallant Friend (Colonel Davies) had objected to the amount ; but his Gallant Friend, as well as binaself,.must be aware, that there was very considerable difficulty in limiting by any precise rule the amount which ought to be voted, taking into consideration ourcolOnial po licy, the preservation of tranquillity in Europe, as well as the state of the population at home. The Gallant Officer ob jected, first, that the numbers were too great, and wished us to return to those of 1822 ; but it shoals . ' be recollected in the Colonial forc e , w h ere th ere we r e six regiments additional, that was nothing but a transfer from the army extraordinaries into the present cStimate, wherefore there was in point of fact no real addition at all. Another point which would show that the present amount was not greater than that of 1822, was to be seen by looking at the esti mates with respect to non-effectives, the number of whom would be reduced by the process of heightening the stan dard from five feet six to five feet seven inches, in conse s quence of which there would be a greater difficulty in re cruiting, and that would cause a diminution in the propor tion of 80,000/. to 110,000/. the latter being the expense of the whole 5,000 men. As to the Colonial Corps, al though his Hon. and. Gallant Friend objected to the present system, he surely could not intend that the Colonies were to be perpetually garrisoned by them, for if that course were proceeded further in it would destroy the energy arid character of the army, and lie himself was sure that his Gallant Friend would not like to keep his brother officers in the exile which such a system would inflict on them. The 00th regiment was for many years a Colonial corps of this deseripti on , a con d emne d reg i ment, an d in consequence except for the sake of patronage, it seldom happened that any of the better description of officers would Ise indsteed to go into it. If you were to deprive the army of ambition, its national character would be destroyed, as they might re collect was the case fourteen or /ifteen years ago with re spect to the Foot and Body Guards, the latter •of which were very deficient as to the character of the officers. The Life Guards were merely considered as pageantry, and sta tionary, and the consequence was what he had stated.—; From that he should say that any corps left stationary in the manner proposed would lose its character, and he be lieved that the destruction of the army must be the e'n sequence if the Colonial Corps were thus increased. On the third point the Depot C.Ompanies, which his Gal lant Friend had stated to be most useless, he should without meaning the least discourtesy, abSolutely deny his assertion. He would, on the contrary, assume that there could not be a better system for the annual supply of a re giment abroad, say for a period of ten years, than this, for, on the return of a soldier after his term, instead of pensioning him off, he could be sent to a depot, where he would be able to have the benefit of his native air, and do European duties. So too with tire officers, who, instead of unlimited leave of absence for a year and a half, or two years, might he sent to the depots in the room of those who took their places, by which means the battalions would be rendered effective. It was also to be recollected that when battalions returned from abroad, they, were enabled to remain only four years at home, and the present system enabled them, by falling hack on this aid, to reform themselves with greater speed, wherefore ha differed from his Hon. and Gallant Friend on all his points, snore espe cially that of the Depot Companies. He would then iu a very cursory manner go through the estimates, which stated its number, organisation, and distribution. The total number was 80,719, which, deducting the Officers, left the rank and file 77,719—(here the Hon. and Gal lant Officer proceeded with extreme rapidity to state the distribution of the army, so that we could not accu rately catch his statement)—leaving twenty-nine battalions in Great Britain. He had thus calculated on 74 regi ments on foreign service, and those were barely sufficient for the ten years' service abroad, it being considered that of these seven were to be relieved every three years. That would show that the home establishment was kept at its lowest possible standard. A considerable reduction had taken place, such as that in retired officers, which caused a saying of 6,6001.; and various others had been effected, amounting in the whale to 140,0001:, which did not ap pear in the Estimate. He would slot then go into the items, but merely would state that there was an increase in the number of in-pensioners to the number of 399, the expense of whom was 123,000/. lie concluded by moving, " That it is the opinion of the Committee that a sum not exceeding 1,210,694/. 15s. sd. begranted to complete tie sums for defraying the expenses of the land forces in Great Britain and Ireland and abroad, exclusive of the forces in the East Indies." Oa the question being put by the Chairman, Colonel DAVIES said, that if the Colonial Corps were kept up, it would not happen that a regiment after serving in the• East Indies could only remain four years at home, and asked if such a regiment was quartered all that time at home, would it be considered a stigma ? One tattalion of the 60th was always a condemned regiment, to which all the bad characters of the army were sent, but if 30 or 40,000 men were permanently kept up, no such stigma could apply to them. With respect to the Life Guards, when he entered the army their officers certainly were not of the highest tone in society, but when they were sent abroad they behaved as well as any other corps, and so would the militia if well officered. The West India ner,ro regiments also fought well. As a nucleus in case of war he thought the depot companies entailed great expence-- but when persons went to this extent, -they abandoned the vantage ground we possessed from our insular situations, for as long as we possessed the controul of the sea, there was no fear that any of our colonies could be invaded without our being able to have a farce to prevent it. Sir II• HARDINGE explained. 111 r. HUME said, if auy instance were wanted in oppo sition to the Right Hon. Gentleman's position, it would be found in the existence and condition of the Native troops in India, who ncvcr left the Colony. Ile looked to eco nomy, which could he best practised by having the troops stationary, and when it was seen that there were 71 batta- lions abroad, that must he manifest. The army in 1822 was 69,000, while at present it was 86,000, and he asked what necessity could exist for this increase of 17,000. As long as the House allowed such power to Minister!, there would never be a reductico. In the Maur4ius and New foundland these were hundreds of troops kept, when a very few troops would answer every purpose. The Gallant Officer had said there were in Ireland 23,000 men, whence 10,000 men might be withdrawn if Government acted as they ought. lie shoul4 like to know why they had more Life and Horse Guards now than formerly. Formerly, '.here used only to be 700 or 800 men of them, but now we had 1,300. Of Foot Guards we used to have 3,700, but now we had s,7oo.—(Hear, hear.) But the fact was, all the duties were now overdone. He understood that at Windsor, during the late King's reign, a guard of one hun dred men did all the duty, but now there was a whole re giment..---(A laugh.) Of Household troops, we used to have 10,000, but now they amounted to 14,000. We made a great fuss, and took great credit to ourselves for discharging a few clerks, who cost SO/. or 90/. a year ; but we kept thousands of men here, who, with their horses, cost kom 100!. to 150/. each. The Noble Lord, formerly at the head of the War Departme nt , h a d g i ven ev i dence in favour of the manner in which the small battalions of 400 or .500 men each were increased to 700 or SOO each, and credit was taken for the chan ge ; b ut now i t appeared that w e were returning to the old plan of small battalions...— We bad fifty-one depots of 500 men each, where 650 offi cers were employed in drilling the men to be sent to the regiments abroad. He did not Fee why the enormous ex pense to wbich this put us should not be reduced. Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that the Hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that these depots were an ad- ' ditional expenFe, Ibe fact was, that four companies of a regiment now remained at home, whilst the rest went abroad. Those that remained at home supplied these on the foreign station with fresh men, and thus kept up the effective force of the regiment during the ten years it was abroad. All the a ddi t i ona l expense i ncurre d b y k eep i ng these companies at home as a depot was Bv. a day for each battalion. Arid these battalions, it must be remembered, performed a duty, which if they did not perform others must lie engaged to 4. said that the raising of the small battalions into large ont , s, or the decreasing the large to small, must b e bad, yet credit was taken for both. Lord PALMEHSTOX said, the Hon. Member was ner he had stated. Each regiment consisted of 740 men, the battalions reduced in the man oifl4oBuoP,Pf°6roinnigwhich the increase was made : and 3 2 it s an a ko t e z t : number of officers served for the 740 men, as in 179.1 served for the 400. (Hear.) It was this which was the great savin g by the arrangement. He had lately compared the total expense of two regiments of foot guards, and two of the Hue, in the course of the last year, and found that the former one came only to 7s. pe r year per man more than the latter. (Hear, hear.) Colonel TRENCH thought he was bound in justice to observe, that the systeM of the War Department reflected equal credit on those who had gone out, and those who Were in.-41-lear, and langl)ter.,—ile should not have trespassed on the time of the Committee, but that he was anxious to make a slim t statement in opposition to that of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. - He was doubly anxious to make this statement, because it was due to the memory of an illustrious individual, now no more, tinder whose su perintendence it had arrived at its i.resent improved condi tion. He requested the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) to do him the honour to follow him while be read this statement, and judge if it were accuratE. He would "say in all sin cerity to the Hon, Member— . " Si qUid novisti reefing istis ".Candidus imperti—si non, his utere mecum" FIRST CASE. Cavalry in 18•2 - 21 s, R. and F., 5916 men, exclusive of Life Guards, Harse Guards, and India, and 5916 men, It. and F., formed on the system of 179-2,would make 3 regiments, and cost 460,6.4 3910 It. and t., as formed in 1822, cost 430,000 Saving by better arrangement £ 39,000 SECOND CASE. lOfantry of the Line are R. arid F, in 1322, 49,510. 18,510 H, and F., on the plan of 1792 form 120 regi ments, .and cost But they do cost in 18t3 1,990,000 Balance in favour of economy:of 182 9 . 348,24 THIRY) CASE. Comparison, including pay and allowance, of the gross amours of Troops. • 18,000 men in 1792 cost (vide Journals) £1,251,573 Add for increase in 30% years Total cost of 48,000 at 1822 at rate of 1792 £1,877,351; PROPORTI ON. As 48,000 men 1,877,359/. : : 68,000 men : : 2,639,0001 X 2,659,000 But by the estimate 69,000 men cost only Balance in favour of economy of 182' , 413,000 Deduct forage paid by Commissariat in 1822 lOO,OOO Remains balance £ 315,000 • FOURTH CASE. On Mr. Hume's own data, though unfavourable, 48,0110 men in 179'2 (including every thing) cost the whole establishment Difference of pay and allowance one half 48,000 men at rate of 1792 would in 1812 cost £3,196,723 As 18,000 men : 3,406,9224 : 68,000 men • • - 4,052,000 ADMITTED DIFFERENCE OF PROPORTION BI— TWEEN EFFECTIVE AND NON-EFFECTIVE FORCE. •;A) 1792 as 500,0001. : 2,000,0004 41 Is-22 as 2,0000001.: 6,080,000/. 1 ,65 ' 5110,000 (B), Items not in existence„in 1792 15..2. Cost of 68,000, at rate of 1792 s 5,785,000 Difference of value of money at 15 percent 968,004i Real cost of 68,000, at rate of r 79 0 6,350,000 ATount of estimate 0,103,000 Balance in favour of economy 1E3:?2 553,000 Deduct forage as above Real balance £ 453,000 (B) Royal Military College $13,952 Royal Naval Asylum 26,149 Pay of General {Seers ' 132,425 Foreign Half.pay 114,870 He begged to observe, that in this statement he had admit ted all the arguments that cool 1 be urged against it, though lie had the authority of an Hon. Member opposite for say ing that value of money had varied during these periods from 25 to 40 per cent.—(Cries of " No.")—He had only taken it at 15 per cent. Sir FRANCIS BLAKE wished to ask, in the event of the conciliating spirit failing to tranquillise Ireland, bow he could provide troops far the Colonies without increasing the present establishment ? Mr. HUI4IE wished the establishment to be reduced to that of IS2. On the item of 136,0001, for the pay of General and Staff Officers serving in the United Kingdom and foreign Stations, Mr. HUME stated that this item had been considerably reduced by the late Duke of York. Colonel TRENCH explained. The item was then voted. On the item of 109,993/. Ss. Pd. to,defray the expenses of the several Public Departments for 1828, Mr. HUME complained of the amount of this Estimate. Sir 11. HARDINGE said that within the last nine' years, the number of clerks in the War-office had been re duced by one-half. The sum of 175,614/. was then voted for hospital con tingencies. On the item of 66,212/. Ss. fur defraying the expenses of the volunteer corps, Mr. HUME complained of the extravagant expense which this corptilirought on the country. Mr. Y. PEEL said, that the reduction of the estimate for the volunteer corps was two-thirds, compared . with what it was last year. Mr. HUME said, that the Volunteer Yeomanry Cavalty, since the year 1517, had cost the country 1,312,6521., which would have been saved if the advice given in 1817 and 1818 had been followed. After a few words from Sir J. BRYDGES in defence of the Yeomanry Cavalry, the resolution was agreed to. A grant of 32,471/. 11 e. 7d. for the maintenance of four troops of Dragoons, and twenty companies of Foot, kept up for the Recruiting Service of the East India Company, was agreed to. ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE. A grant of 12,1911. 15s. Bd. was then proposed to defray the expenses of the Royal Military College for the ensuing year. Mr. HLTME said that he thought this a most useless piece of expense. We had paid in the last eleven years, fair the education of 540 young gentlemen who had been admitted into the army from this College, no less a sum than 232,4371., being 4251. for each cadet admitted into the army. Sir A. HOPE wished that the Hon. Member for Aber- Been bad the candour of a Member of the Finance Corn• mittee, who, in all the reductions he had voted for, had yet borne testimony to the excellent management of this College. The Mon. Member diti not now, as he usually did, propose to diminish the vote, but pounced the mind of the House by his statements, before the evidence adduced in favour of that establishment, came before them. In 1792, the army had no education whatever, and all that a subaltern officer learnt, was the firing a platoon or the saluting a general officer on field days. At the beginning of the last war we were actually obliged to apply to fo reign powers for assistance in organizing our army, before it could begin its operations in Flanders. We had now a General Officer in our service who was a Captain in the Austrian army when he came to assist us in that organiza tion. Now, however, we had 106 staffofficers who had been regularly educated at this College, and of the number there were three Quarter Master-Generals of large armies. Be sides this, 76 had passed their examinations and obtained certificates, which made one hundred and eighty-two persons who were now with our army in different parts of the world, qualified to take any duty that might be confided to them. But, besides, there had been 2,050 officers, more or less, educated in the College, who had since entered the army. The Finance Committee of 1817 referred the fate ofthia College to the decision of the Commander-in-Chief, who modelled it as it was now found. The lion. Member for Aberdeen put himself up as the man who was to abridge the expences of the country.—(Hear, hear.)—But the other night when the House was discussing the vote to the Professors of Oxford, the Hon. Member hoped that the House would grant something to the London College.__ (Hear, bear, hear.)—So that give the lion. Member his favourite child—(laughter)—and he had no objection to lavish money upon it, whilst he was willing to destroy the military establishments of the country.--(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME said, that the manner in which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had addressed himself to him, called upon him to make a few observations.—(bear, hear, beer.) —The Gallant Officer had said that poison had fallen from him, but was a statement of the truth poison? (Cheers) — It might be poison to the ears of the Gallant Officer.— (Cheers.)---Was his statement of the expences of the Col lege for the last eleven years garbled ? He did not say any thing agsinst the system of education there.—(Hear, hear.) —The reasoning of the Gallant Officer was not all appli cable to the subject. He said that somebody in the Financa Committee had spoken in favour of the College, but he (Mr. Hume) had said nothing derogatory of it. He de nied both the garbling and the poison attributed to him.— (Hear.)—ln 1792 the boo. Member had said we had no education far our Officers in the army. He (Mr. H.) had never denied the expediency of the officers being educated; what he objected to was, the country paying for the edu cation. As to the Committee of 1817, it remained for the House to consider whether the expence ought not to be reduced in proportion to the wants of the service, or be borne by the parties. With respect to the London College, when he. spoke of a vote for it, the Hon. and Gallant Member could not have been present, or he must have :een that it was a joke spoken ironically.—(l.aughter. ) Did the Hon. and Gallant Member suppose that he (Mr. Ilutn edress h ) ini k s n el e f w io s r e t l i i i t e tl l e no o n f e t y he as m t e o n im to iig wi n h e on t ' ha h t e th h e a y d two-oaulid a:ive one farthing for the furtherance of any liberal object. (Cheers.)—lle should be the veriest fool—(Loud eties of hear)—that ever was, to think of it even. He was sur idoeeld la in ugh a laughter.) i r.L n_ the Gallant Officer could have been so gulled as to suppose be (Mr. Hume) thought such an application . would Sir A b e .H listened (p E to sa i f d o r athia'it"Teenat;—(il.tu asi rating situation, to find himself gulled by the Hon. Mem- her for Montrose.—(Loud laughter, and cries of" hear.") ' Mr. 1108 HOUSE said, that the course pursued by the Gallant Officer, wits son:01611g new. ear, hear.)— There were Gallant Otlic,rN near him (Air. H.) as gallant • . . ► as the Hen. Nether IsiskrtA• front Whom he had never heard such language or any complaint o;" the conetitutiona. mode in which Hon. Members expressed tOir dissatisfac tion at what they considered extravagaucti Mem. berg were not to be taunted in this way about or its being a disgrace to be gulled by this or that Member. —(Cheers.)—He must be excused for saying tio, but this was language not to be borne.---(Cheers.)—He was not angry for himself, for had the language been addreNed to bins he should not have spoken. With respect to the nava tirn which his Noble Friend made of the London Univer-- alty, ,it was , certainly in a joke, and yet the Hon. and Gallant ;Member tried to raise a cry against him for it. lie trusted the Hon. and Gallant General would think this said in good part. Sir A. ITOPV certafn;;' did take what the Iron. Member had said in perfectly good part, as respected the Hon. Member for Westminster, for he had had no intention of dis . pleasing bins. With regard to the foolish thing about gulling, he was sorry, for his . part, he bad committed a breach of the rules of the House. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose to orotest against the doctrine laid down by the Gallant Officer, that they were not to discuss any thing till they had the Repot - ,t of the Fi nance Committee. He would not say a word wit;; respect to the temper displayed, as the Gallant Officer had tt:.,ready sufficiently apologised.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") Sir A. HOPE had followed what he understood to be the decision of the Clouse, namely, that they should not speak of curtailments in the Estimates till the Report of the Finance Comnittee was before them. Aster a few words fi',Nt the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQUEit and Mr. BARING, The vote was agreed to ; the r,hairman reporte4 pro gress, and the Report was ordered t o . 1 3e received on Mon day. . _ SALE OF GAME BILL. On tLe motion that the Speaker do leave tie Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee on ebe Salo of Game Bill, Mr. S. WORTLEY said he felt assured the ,reeling of the House was, that some alteration of the law was ,:eces- Bury ; moreover, the proposed change had received ,;he sanction of the other House of Legislature. The Hon. Member then entered into en explanation of the present state of the laws and the proposed changes, but as he spoke from under the gallery, and in a low tone of voice, it was impossible to understand him. Sir J. BRYDGES opposed the Bill. Sir J. SHELI.EY should be committing an act little short of political cowardice if he were to discontinue hie opposition to the principle of the Bill—convinced that it would not diminish poaching. The Hon. Baronet. then deprecated the species of spirt called battu, in the collection and preservation of garlic, in which the greater portion a the crime of poaching had its origin. As it was possible, however, that the Bill might produce some good, he should not oppose it. Sir H. VIVIAN condemned the practice of hoarding up game for battus. Mr. C. WOOD—Although be did net suite approve or the qualifications suggested in the present Bill, thought himself bound to support this measure. Lord W. PAULETT, Mr. COLBORNE, Mr. F. LEWIS, and Mr. Secretary PEEL, concurred in supporting the principle of the Bill. Lord MOREETIE, Mr. G. Lsms, and Mr. BENETT, like wise supported the principle of the Bill, and the House finally resolved itself into a Committee ; Mr. F. Lzwrv, in the Chair. Mr. S. WORTLEY stated that it was not his intention to do any thing more on the present occasion than to pro pose a few verbal amendments, and to introduce one or two clauses in the Committee, to which he was perfectly con fident no opposition would be made. The amendments were then agreed to, die Report was brought up and read, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Monday next. USURY LAWS. Mr. P. THOMPSON moved the second reading of the Usury Laws Amendment Bill. Sir R. WILSON wished to know if the Hon. Member wished to proceed further. Mr.. P. THOMPSON only wished to proceed one stage in the Bill. He wished tb take the second reading fur Tuesday nest.—Agreed to. Mr. DAWSON moved that the other Orders of the Day be now read. Lord NUGENT proposed that the Registration of Free holders' Bill should be read a second time. Sir R. WILSON objected to the second reading of the Bill after one o'clock. The motion. of Lord Nugent was then withdrawn. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and he House adjourned at Two o'Clock. SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. LIVERPOOL. THURSDAY, JuivEii-Liiigl; water, II min.. past I 1. Wind N. W.—Arrived the Grace, Davies, from Demerarv, with sugar and rum ; Franklin, Pierce, from New Orleans and New Pert Ral, with cotton ; Charles, Dudne, from St. John's, N.B. with timber. CLEARED OCITWARDS.—The Home, Mitchell, fur Que bec ; Sarah, Buston, for Calais; Heart of Oak, Stone, for Newfoundland and Labrador ; Thomas Battershy, Yopp, for Pictou; Carolina Emilie, Black, for Stettin; Persia, Davy, for Gibraltar; Pillau, Sewerte, for Pillau. Telegraph Office. Passed Holyhead, inward bound, No. 244, Isaac Hicks, from Mobile, American ship, at 7 a.m. Wind at Holy head, W.N.W., light breeze. At 10 a.m., No, 6 and No. 11 pilot boats off Point Lynas,_ and I pilot boat west of the floating light. Passed Point Lynas, inward bound, No. 244, Isaac Hicks, American ship, at 2 15 p.m. The vessels that sailed this day were west of the floating light a four p.m. On Saturday next will appear, THE BRITISH POLITICAL GAZETTE. The First Number of this Publi cation (the Editors of which pledge themselves to the Nation to prosecute the commutation of Tythes to some legal aid permanent enactment) contains the first part of a reply to " Lord Gr.ENvILLE's Essay on the supposed Advantages of the Sinking Fund." In size of paper it is similar to thiA Old Established Weekly Journal " The Literary Gazette."--To be had of all Newsmen and Book sellers, and at the several Post-offices in the country._ Price Tenpence, postage free.—Published by WILLi.‘,I Joy, Bookseller, 66, St. Paul's Church-yard. The last Number of the Gazette of Ilealth (published on the Ist inst.) contains, among other medical intelligence, some interesting observations on the correc tive and curative effects of the mineral water of Great Malvern on scrofula, pulmonary consumption, and dis eased joints, by Surgeon Annlsox ; an easy and effectual mode of curing corns and bunions, he Dr. Baows ; and of burns and scalds, by Dr. WARD ; an account of new remedies for the shaking palsy, for rheumatism, tic do loureux, St. Vitus's dance, loss of vision, inflammation of the eyes, thrush, croup, S.:c.; effectual means of prornotiug the growth of the hair ; receipt for making the royal Ita lian blacking ; and exposure of the adulteration of drugs ; and a very valuable essay on the corporeal and mental ma nagement of infants, and the duties of mothers, &c. by the celebrated Dr. DxwzEs, of Philadelphia. The Editors of this popular Work have annourioed a reprint of i:11 the back numbers, so that complete copies of each Volume may be obtained of any bookseller. within the last thi r ty y ears , as a ny of the manufa c t ur i ng Newhaven h as i ncrease d nearly as r a p i dly villages in the west country. There ate fishermen ali:c who recollect when there were only six boats belonging to the place, and there are now about two hundred. The ,great increase in the trade and population has of course caused a great rise in the feus and rents.—Seotsman. GILLHAM, THE MURDERER. —After the ar rival of the body of GILLHAM at the United Hospital, oil Wednesday night, all the surgeons and pupils belonging to the establishment assembled as early as four o'clock on tle• following morning, when the dissection commenced, and from which they only desisted long enough to partake of a slight breakfast. By two o'clock in the afternoon they had dissected as far as the abdomen. The body was then removed from the dissecting room to a large upper apart-, went, where all the me4ical gentlemen of Bath were ad mitted, and the senior surgeon of the hospital, Mr. Nort- MAN, began the demonstration on the muscles of the abdo men, which was extremely interesting, and lasted about three qoarters of an hour. Mr. Sons, the next surgeon in eminence, then demonstrate(' on the axiliary vessel,, which engage d hi s audience, about 60 in number, till half past four ; and at four o'clock Friday morning these labours were resumed. The head of the murderer was shaved on of the hair soft brown hair, curled Thursday night, and a plaister cast of it . taken. The loss produced h a rw g iN r g ea fi t n. echla.onggied:itir ftel:eauarpeisiea\iv.aiitiiciu.n. t3ll,Li f Am, judging even from his present appearance, waii i l i i::l L Vf t o u ir r ieu a in l itd'a x B° . d in i. g m l e et il s ilel a l l : l ad ov ' e .e r r> the head. The p rson is tail and very muscular. On Saturday M r. N ORMAN pro ceeded with the next division of hi s l a b ours, viz. the lungs. T The brain, it is understood, will not be dissectid, feeause it would spoil the skeleton, which is to be pr served in the hospital.---Bath Herald. '‘N 1