The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

be prevented (ram ettending the meeting b ecsose they did not reside on that property, he shosild pro pose a clause to allow such persons to attend, pro vided they had a freehold in that meeting of a certain • value, rating that value sufficiently high to prevent the possibility of making freeholders- for the'. occasion,- He had now stated- the most important alterations which he in'ended to propose. With respect to wlLat-• -had —beet] -said in - tavonr- of - sreniferie g the Bill local anti temporary, he had given the deepest consideration to the subject, alit!, tinder every point of view, he considered that it would be in exp. client and dauaeroos to localize the measure. It u mild only hold Out a temptation to the iti tterant orators and the itaditals themselves, to make a march, 46 they had already done o' 20 or 30 miles, with or wi , hout blanksta, an d before .the necessary Pt oclamation could be issitsd, to transfer the seat of disturbance to counties which till then - had remained in peace. The question of duration had also deeply occupied his atten tion, and the more he reflected upon it, the more he was conduces! that the Constittition and the state of the Laws would be detective and monde .qtroe to the support of the best interests of the people, if provisions were not made, not to inva lid Ate Public Meetings, hut to strip theM of their tutnultuary and dangerous character. A feeling, however, seemed to prevail in the House 'and throu c h the country, to which it was his duty to how---(Elear, hear !)---conceiving tha't it was not desirable to giVe the last seal to the treasure without talc ;rig mor e time for consideration,_ (h heat !)—He recollected also, that a most invalu a bl e A c t, the Grenville Act, for regnkting contested ElectiOrS, had heen passed by Parlia ment for a term of seven years, with a view of ascertaining its expedi enc y, and at the end of that period, taking into consideration the propriety of snifeting it to exetre or renewing it. He was disposed to apvly the same principle to the.',pre ssio measure— (Hear, hear, heir !)—provid l ed it h e not passed for at inadequate period. It any Honoerable Gentleman, therefore, should move to limit the duration of the Bill to a per kin • consistent with his views of the subject, he should. most cheerfully accede to the motrti. in his opinion, the time ought nor to he less than fire years--( Hear, hear, hear o—with an wider . - tirinlitig, that Parliament should then - revise the measure, and judge', from the experience of its effects, r.-hether it would be proper to renew it, If any motion should be made to fix a shorter pe riod than five years, it would meet with his opposi lino, and be would cettainly take the sense of the House against any proposi:ion to localize the measnre. Having thus explained all that he con ceived necessary, be should move the Order of the Dac• for taking into further considerai int) the Report of the Sc ditiuns Meetings Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear !) The Order of the Day having been read, Lord CASTLEREAGH moved, that the House re solve itself into a Committee. Colonel BeAttmoNT rose to submit a pr o p o‘ i. • ..tion to the House, tending (as it was understood) IMP.OIZTATION OF SILKS. •• to limit the duration of the present measure to Mr. HUME inquired whether the Right Hon. Gentleinan one.year, or s i x wee k s a f ter t h e open i ng of the opposite, intend ed to make any'alteration in tl,e l aws resin et ii4; the importation of Silks, and to substitute a duty fur the next Session of Parliament. existin g prohibition ? - The SPE A K E L state d, t h at suc h a mot i on had The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUrit was under- better be ma d e a f ter t h e H ouse had gone into the stood to a tower, t h at h e h ad found it didieult to persua d e the Beitish Silk Manufacturers to adopt that vie w of th e su bj ect , . Committee, unless the Hon. Member sliould wish atid ,bat he himself entertained considerable doubts of its to propose it in the shape of a mandatory instruCe expediency. For the present, therefore, no alteration was . • ! 11(111 t o b e g i ven to t h e C omm i ttee. proposed to b e made in the ex i st i ng la ws . Mr. J. P. GRANT moved tor an account of the total amount j Mr. TIERNEY thought that the latter course of the duty received on stock malt, in consequence of the Act would perhaps be preferable, as it would more ef passed last Session, specifying the time when the var Mas p,ay- nieuts becaioe due —Ord ere d. ty, t udlly mat k the importance which the H ouse Mr. V. FITZGERALD obtained leave to bring i n a Bill t o . attached to limiting the (filiation of the Bill. attlend•the Irish Lunatic Asylum Act. After a few woids from. Lord CASTLEREAGH, - , P.ARLIAMENTARY REFORM. the conversation dropped. Mr. LAMBTON glee notice that shortly after the Christ mas Mr. CURWEN th en a dd resse d t h e H ouse, He as holidays, be should call the attent i on o f the House to the state a n the Representation tit the people h i Parliament. Ilse acknowledged that the proceedings which had thought it fair at the same time to state the nature and object taken place at various meetings were such as to of his motion. He should ask leave to bring in a Bill to re- require to h e p u t d own , b ut h e contended that the P eal the Septennial Act, and ins u r e a mote frequeot callin g of Parliament. He should also press upon the consideration Bill proposed woold not meet the case effectually. of the House the propriety and expediency of extending the He wished that a considerable discriminatio n Right of Suffrage to Copyholders and Houseltolders.P"Yiug should be masked between the leaders and the direct taxes, and to the entire suppression of Rotten g.. Boroughs.—(He a r, h ear , h ear ! ) —His view sho u ld b e to pro - mislead. I nstea d o f a sweep i ng and eneral med pose Triennial, instead of Septennial, Parliaments ; and he i sore like the present, he thought it would have sheold do it with a full conviction that the subject was that been prefer a bl e to a d opt a Bil l, wh i ch, like the which most intere s t e d th e great ma j or i ty of the people of fills country, particularly th e m iddli n g c l asses, sod that such Re- I nsurrect ion A ct i n I re l an d, m i g h t b e l ocally ap form would be the sUrest mode of conciliation, and would plied, and would empower Magistrates to prevent most tend to restore that peace and harmony, the absence all meeting s a t once i n t h e di stni b ed counties, without apprehensi o n.—(H ear , hear !) - of which no ma n cou ld contemp l ate without regret, if not , . 1 his would have cut d own t h e root o f th e evil, SEDITIOUS MEETINGS BILL. ' which the proposed enactments would not reach, Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it proper, before and its efficiency had been proved by experience. lie should move the Order of the Day for taking lie then stated that he had never believed the ex into further consideration the Report of the Sethi- aggerated accounts of cruelties said to have been dons Meetings Bill, to state briefly to the House 1 committed by the Manchester Magistrates, butt he the alterations which. he intended to introduce in- conceived that they hail not exercised a due de toree of discreti on , and that the interf e re nce o f hi s its provisions, and t o reserve his Ob Si at i on , g for the time when the clauses themselves would Majesty's Ministers had been improper. lie con be discussed in the Committee. As he had found tended that the tvhole mass of loyal people was that the first provisi on would affect certain j ute _ dissatisfied, and beii,:v.ed that there was a power rests, and it was not th e o bj ect o f t h e measure to acting in th a t H ouse w hi c h prevented it from invalidate discussion, but to secure it against the being the faithful guardian of the public evils and disturbances occasioned by excess of Pur s e• The feeling in favour. of Parliamentary numb er s, he should have no difficulty in taking Reform was spreading everywhere, and if the out of the Bill all the meetings held within doors, House did not reform itself, the object might be effected in a m anner w hi c h all must lament. The in rooms or apartme nts ,—(H ear , h ear, h ear !)--; Such meetings, it was therefore now intended to only meaos of restoring peace to the country, was exclude from its operation, and as this sego- to remove the o ver taxation under which it la . ;soured. When the wh o l e amount of its prop er ty lation would all l eave meet i ngs o f trades per fectly free, it would become expedient lo effect was under 300 millions, how was it possible that attacker alteration in the Bill, and to leave out it should continue to pay (W millions of taxes ? the clause that exempted them from the former He was astonished to hear the Noble Lord-on a provision as no longer necessary. Som'e doubts former night attribute existing distresses to the state of the A merican rust krt. Waa it possibl e had also been raised r es p ect i ng t h e propr i ety of Making it a misdemeanor for non-residents to re- that other countries shonid he nil In indl9l of the main at a meeting after a Proclamation wattling system of monopoly and exclusion which England them to depart. He should therefore propose to had so loug practised against them, aosl should not introduce words into the clause, marking it dis- now be desitous of practising it in their hint tinatly that they were knowingly and purposely against her ? He then complained of the haste attending for objects contrary to law. It might, with which the present Bill had been drawn, and i llerhaps, be thought that the clause ought to be lamented that it should not have been so framed made wily penal ; beet as the object was to pre- Jas to meet the wishes of every cou - stitutional man vent the attendance o f t h ose great num b ers of in the House. strangers, which would render it difficult for a Mr. V. FITZGERALD expressed his satisfaction at Magistrate to carry the Act into execution, if all the alterations proposed by his Noble Friend, they were once allowed to assemble, the necessity but IIIOSI particularly that which excludsd from the operation o f th e Bill all meetings held within of a severe denunciati o n must b ecome apparent ' . As an assistance to the Magistrates, to prevent doors. He could not have acqoiesccd in a measure those large assemblies of 40,000 or 50,000 people, .which would have taken away from a whole coon he should also propose, that, after the reading of try a right which it had always exercised without. a • ProChrtinalion, all the residents should be em- dttoger,,.and which would have preven.ed the Ca powered to act as special, constables, and to take ihohics of Ireland from approaching the throne strangers into custody. A s i t m i g h t b e i mproper with a statement of t h e i r gr i evances. He was that peraous haviug property, in a parish, should . doubly glad that hiki Noble Flientl should have Bin was read a second time, and committed for to-morrow. AIMS SEIZURE BILL. On the consideration of the Report of this Bill, some conversation, principally between the Earls Strathmore, Grey, and the Duke of Northumber land, took place. Of this, no small portion was of a nature ex planatory of what was stated by two of their Lordships on a former night, with, respect to state of some of the Northern Counties, parti cularly those of Durham and Northumberland. The Earl STRATHMO/111 added the particulars of some very recent intelligence he had received from that quarter, which itAicated't hat piepaia tions were making to have a rollick', y force in readiness to act according to circumttances ; that great numbers were ripe for insurrection, and whose object, to a very great proportion of their amount, was in his Lordship's idea that of plunder. The Noble Duke - spoke in expla nation of what be had stated on the former even ing, and Earl Gael-, in the course of his observations, adverted to some facts of a nature similar to those before stated; but the accounts he seethed t o think were not a little exaggerated. His near relative (the Rev. Mr. Grey), as stated on a ror. mer evening, was constrained to remove front his residence, but it was chiefly with a view to the safety of his family, and to ease the anxiety of their minds, rather than from any apprehension of immediate serious danger. The Earl of DAR XLEY expressed a wish to press his amendment. Lord SIDMOUTH observed, thst th9t might, if it should be &rimed necessary, be done on the flirt! reading. Auer s(ime further discussion, the third read ing w,s ordered for to-morrow. Tiie Report of die 'Fraiving Prevention Bill Was brought up.—Adjaur , 'ed at ELEVEN o'CLocK. HOUSE OF COAINIONS. On the motion of Mr. WYNNE, and after a few worth from Mr. Ii , ,HNAL, the Sko.:Ariv.R was diteeted not to issue his war rallt for the election of a Burgess, in the room of Sir M:t n,is..ch Lopez, for the Borough of Barnstaple, until:this day fortnight. Air P. llo,tzg presented a Petition from Mr. W.G Lewis, of the city of Coventry, compLiiiiinz of the dis persion of ;he late meeting , railed to take into consideration the NTatie!Jester transictioNs, altootigh that nt , etitig was duly convened, and every wean; had been adopted to keep ti, ptace. fie prayed for login., „and to be 41:oweel to give vv . , d.•nce at the bar of the liouse.—ltead, laid on the; table, and ordered to be ikrint,l. CRINIINAL INFORNIATIONS. Srn 1. should submit a motion, 10 whi,;l l he conceived no objection wnolti he made ; it was for collie; of ail ei ninonl info; matioos filed by the Attarney•Gen,ral in 181£4, and 1819, for libels, specifying- their dats.s, the nann's of the defendants, the titles of the publications in w , ,,ich til e alleAcd libels wt re contained, and the verdicts and jtnig nictits, when verdicts followed or judgments were pro nounced.—Agreed to. WAYS AND MEANS. Mr. B! OLDEN Isroot.fltt up the Report of the Committee of Ways and Ite , ,olutiuns were read and agreed to, ;:nd fi;:s ~n:ered :tecordin;;ly. The Report of the Comialittee of Supply "as postponed till Wednesday next, on the ration of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. suggested the alteration himself, without waiting till it had been pointed out by others, as it skewed that the spirit on which lie acted did not tend to repress meetings, but to render them secure. In the course of many 'years, no meeting of the Ro man Catholics of Ireland had been attended with any temult, or an?,.menacing preparations. As they were chiefly held, however, its the chapels of their own persuallion, It would perhaps be necee cary.Jo introduce the words courts, chapels, and opsttments, into the clause; in order to leave no doubt upon the subject. Sir ROBERT WILSON conceived that his Ma jesty's Ministers deserved to be impeached for tire system of measures which they were now emica vouring to carry. Th e y were designed to break down the fences of our laws, to subvert the very elements of our Constitution, mid to deprive the people of their liberties. His object, within and without the walls of that House, was not to hold inflammatory Nuguage, hot every Member who felt properly, ought to express his feelings openly, otherwise he would be abetting and aiding in the ruin of his dummy. The state to which the country was now reduced had been produced by misrule, by inattention to the complaints of the people, by a refusal to redress their wrongs till the expression of accumulated suffetings was attended with menace and danger. It .was violence that provoked discontent and shed blood without atoning for it. Had the Noble Lord adopted a system of conciliation, he should haVe. been one of the first to support any moderate measure. Btit if the Government of the country was to be turned into a Govern ment of force, he did not care how sanguinary the Is ws were wade, or whether he should be their first or last victim. It might be deemed seditious to use the terms of ".Liberty or Death" in the House, but he was one of those who would never relinquish freedom but with life. He then con !ended that Mr. Pulteuey, Lord Bathurst, and the other Senators who had voted fur the Riot Act at the time of its passing, had afterwards severely repented the vote which they had given. He objeeted to the Bill for allowiog arms to be seized, and particularly to the clause which authorized constables with a Magistrate's warrant, to break into any house at night. A man might thus be forced to admit robbers under the disguise of constabks, or if he resisted and killed a con stable before be knew who he was, he would not be tried for murder, but as a rebel. Such an Act had been passed in the time of William 111. to disarm the Papists in Ireland, but even then the search for arms was only allowed in day time. He then complained, of the intended regulations to controul the press, and maintained, that by subjecting all Editors of Newspapers to the punishmeot of transportation, they would prevent men of respectability and property from engaging in that professiots. He conceived that the serest mesas of hurling religion from the rock on which it stood, was an, attempt to defend it by other arms than those„qCpeace and good will towards men. He recommended to the Church not to forget that it was a Church of peace, and to its Members, not to exchange the tiistoral staff for the ensigns of majesterial authority, not to connect themselves with riot acts and military executions, and not to display the passions of men, when their ditty was to illustrate the met.. cies of their God. By their present system, Ministers were levying war on the people, and let them not rest satisfied with the hope that all the hurdle!, would be thrown on posterity. Let them not say, like Louis the 18th, when be was told that his measures would bring ruin on his successors" after me the deluge." If they per severed in their present course, they themselves would be swept away by the torrent, and where would they find an ark to give them refuge ?—He then complained of the baste with which the measures were pressed through the House, pre venting the possibility of petitioning against them. He contended that the large majorities by which they had been supported, .wonld contribute most effectually t o conv i nce the country that it was un der the favour of those places ant: pensions which had been so often reproved, that the Noble Lord was enabled to come to Parliament, not only without meeting with punishment, but with en couragement and triumph, to propose measures hat violated the Bill of Rights, and all other rights, and, if adopted, would amount to an act of suicide on the part of the House. There was but one mode left to counteract these attempts. Let all the independent men, on all sides of the House, combine 'together. Let them raise the great constitutional Standard—Let them say— " &bolus Leges Anglier mutant"--Let them do that, and . let them safely ride on the whirlwind and direct the storm.—(Hear, bear!) to a short er p er i o d , h e should conceive tbdt t tl,l whole measure was rendered unavailing. nas Sir It. IVILSOte explained why he shook 10 it with I - lent. He had done so because he thoug h t him greatly wronged, and himself wronged by t h e same outrage upon the people. He diet e r, ' gave him his b d, as a sign that he tv 01 4,," . g ... , hatui in baud w him.....(Hear, hear s bea r , ll „ e Ile'vreAd have be steed bad he not Ils' i, k done so, and more ashamed if he bad give li . r hand to those stained With the blood of d u° - countrymen.--(sear, hear, and a laugh.) be M. 13eex e b egge d to assure the. House t h at would feel it t o h e hi s most imperative duty t ° e consume but a v e ry sma ll port i on of its time. 1) observed, that be had attended with all the Wet" tion in his power to the gallant Baronet's are vents, but he entertained a totally different opt' nion respecting this measure, and others connectl with it. He considered them measures for tit: preservation of the country against the danget', which threatened it. If amputation were peas; sary for the preservation of the vital parts of t he, constitution, he should h ave agreed to i t. But b e did not think that neeessary, nor d i d he con9 int these measures as affecting ally part of the cons' tution. Stich speeches as were ma d e i n that Howl by the Hono ura bl e B aronet and others near 1100 afforded to the disaffected an opportunity of d e ;: hiding th e di s t resse d. H e was perfectly sure o ' 4 there was nothing farther from their intendn * ' than to occasion such an evil. But, hoovever es'''' cellent their hearts might be, their heeds appea r : ed not so well suited for public discussion as Ml' thought them. They had co n v u l se d t h e cull „of with complaints for the refusal of that House t 0 institute an inquiry into the events at Mauctieste r '• It was extremely ludicrous to see them urging li r quiry in such circumstances ; tor let them 01 con.ider in wh a t situation they wo u ld b e p l a ced i an enquiry were gone into, and that house were ° address the Prince Regent, praying that the At' torney-General should prosecute certain persons' Without inquity, criminAl informations could be applied for, or bills might be presented to th e : Grand Jury, or civil actions might be hiotight' brit if the Attorney General were to piosecute is consequence of the Address of that Heuse to the Prince Regent, he mus• file informations ex oPe' and the accused coold at once put his hand ; 01° his pocket and produce a plea in bar by p r esent' ing the letter o f t h an k s . A n i nqu i ry would t he m . fore be the surest way to prevent the accused from punishment, if they were guilty. He therefor ° telt great regret that such speeches were made O li the other side. Mr. RICARDO observed, that if the right of Pe'' titioning were the only right which the peoPh ) ' were to enjoy, it would be but of little v a lue ti . :' them. The very essence of it, he conceived, 01 7 ' to meet in Dirge; numbers, and show such a fro tfr to Ministers, as would get the wishes of the pet" tioners to be attended to, and procure bid men' • sures to he abandoned. It was the same with th e Home itself, which was a check upon the Crow° . If they could do nothing more than pass Resole (ions, it was but of small avail, but to eoforg * them they were armed with the power of wid e holding the supplies, and calling forth public °p' position, so that the Governmznt could not be' come despotic. He did not deny but heat the ett: ercise of the tight of meeting might be attende d with great inconveniences. Distresses had arisen' and might arise, over the causes of Willa 0° Government could h ave any controul, an d of these, these, designing men might take advantage fel , excite a mischiev ous s pi r i t. H e was nor aver s e to checking such Machinations, but b e did n° consider that the measures before them were s • sufficient check. That was only to be found in * reform which should place the House ie a situ's" t , ion to expr ess t h e sense of the whole peop le ' End not in a right to petition, which could otof be employed by a part of the Radical Reformers; he expressed his opinion, that though ulna(( among. them w ere b a d an d des i gning men, Y e there w e r e ot h ers w h o h onestly entertained tb' . belief, that Universal Suffrage and Annual Parlie meats were n e cessity to the salvation of the c owl' try. He did not agree w i t h them, but he 04 them credit for sincerity ; and for his part eXlle ct : ed the same, when he declared that he thonghti Reform, f a r s h ort o f w h at t h ey demanded, WOO I i satisfy ev e ry d es i ra bl e o bj ect, and th at it w oul d be wrong to proceed one step farther. ..., . Mr. Ald . WAITHM AN concurred with the ts°ll; Gentleman who just sat d own i n the opinion tb * the importance o f th e T i g h t w hi ch the House v 1 8 .4 1 called upon to give up, was not sufficiently coast; i dered, and . he regretted that the Legislature 04 1 I about to pas s. enactments essentially aff ec ti ng Ili a c , I right, with ou t g i v i ng t h e people su ffi cient time t , t become acquainted with them. Even the Citiien,; 1 i of London were scarce l y a bl e to express tb el a . t opinions within sufficient time, though he belie" 1 that at the moment he was speaking, the Sherin; t of London w e r e wa i t i ng w i t h a petit i on witbti f t,. ' t the doors of th e H ouse. I t i t was necessttri i that these measures should be carried so hastily' t why was Parliament not assembled sooner ?•. • When th e Address o f th e City was presented .i' 4 the Prince Regent i t Was replied th a t the citizen: , I, were not acquainted with the facts which occurred , et Manchester. H e wou ld as k , w h y was no ifi ( i' 0 formation .since gi ven to en li g h ten the pu bli c min._ p on the subject ? Trite, certain papers were laid O n : the table of the H ouse , conta i n i ng i n f or m "ati' i , 0 communicated to Mi n i sters b y severa l persons.. , it But to those pap ers he could not a ff o rd mueb CO'! e l fidence, so far ei ll,ev referred to this trensaCtion tii seeing how easily and how frequently two persc! ," I t give very different accounts of the same occur ' . , , 1, rence. A great deal was said about the legall s : '.' I t and illegality of the meeting at Manchester. 0 .1 3 31 1i' Is niona were in truth so divided and opposed, , t , ro r I I it at least seemed right to call for an inquiry 111 . 11 ,.' / 41 the conduct of men who dkpersed that mee ti . 4 , .1, 41 1 with so touch calamity to the people. ft shnu jis L sc, be remembered, that that meeting did not; 4 1 , 1, , !ti mode of being summoned, differ trona the me ib ` if , e i . , ,, ing which was held in Smithfield, B !'d b it 1:t meeting the tieeretery of State declared t° _, l i, ; I f legal ;so et least it appeared from the comflr ,r d If til cations which were carried on between the sj i, 4 i l :t Mayor of London and Lord Sidmouth, yet he n , lt l nrec°' l Itt strong reasons to believe that it was a e _ d 0 ! N) 1 carted thing that Harrison should be a rrestc id, t k the meeting, and, if any resistance were °ti e w i. •l the military were prepared to act at threg • Mr. GRENDELL Stood as -dista - nt in opinions from his Honourable and Gallant Friend as one pole was from the 'other. His Honourable and ' Gallant Friend had_said that his !Waitsl's Minis ters deserved impeachment for the measures which they had proposed. No‘ii , this sentence of con demnation must involve, not only the Noble Lord opposite, but all those who supported his mea sures, and as he was one of those, he must consider himself as in the ranks of the impeached. —(Hear, bear !)—His Honourable and Gallant Friend had said, that he-was not in the habit of holding infiatnmatory kngua l !,e within or without the walls of -the House.—(No, from Sir R. Wil.; son.)—Had his Honourable and Gallant Friend then forgotten what had taken place on the hust ings in the Borough of Southwark ?—(Hear, hear, hear'!)—Had he forgotten how he shook hands and gave the fraternal embrace to Mr. Hunt ? (Repeated cheers and laughter.)—Did he not re collect uttering these words, " This country is the most degraded country in the world ?" (Repeated cheers l)—Or did he mean to say that that was not violent language ?—(Hear, hear !) His Honourable and Gallant Friend had said, that a time would corrie when those who . supported -the present measures would . repent their folly.. If that should ever •be ibe cise, he would not conic to his Honourable and. Gallant Friend to have his tears wiped 4tytiy.—(Hear; hear, hear !) .---1 - lashottld not follow him through his rmarits on measures that Were not before the House ; but with respect - to the limitation proposed by the Noble Lord to the duration of the present Bill, he tilitistid only say, that if it were reduced 1.111 ti led ° l`p : 1 ‘, l , s tr e t ' , I^ te it ? ill, vi h i()I ll a er,:t t4 ;11, 1 t il. I( 14, L of D„ "(1 a t(1 1 1:1t, f ete( ' , env Was: