The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-09 00:00:00

the Pop:), to thee ,ical power ter was ul" uld irnpoie ncessioo o f shall Sod first, will it'd, then, Is of the ace in the one eteP en renown' 1, the Cs' to publish ecclesiavtl• .er the Cr repouncea restrictive v to root! Id everaj' ground of t form the I object to (pinions in- Our an' indispeo' in strongb r were stand after . that their 1; the Ca onsiders no s a Bishop , in the Ca- Pope and 3 le, it would the infalli- Tics profe o in case .%R it the nest 1n article of 1k by any 0 0 ,e, Couscw tide of the . low does h e ' Lug, that le' iestion as sed. Novi! say it La no witness, oil to -dispense he Pope 10 6 , he rights 0' lowledgVo t 1g a superio r Can yo? )ersons t , ) is a4kedf by the MAY' last doettioe ,n the cll.*: " This nit he was O.'', oind were Or li role was re ° 1 , lined to t 4ill oo e danger spreading "iy ntinued fir P lurch reniall',,e the prese s ot i, scriptural t r e ir ,n would Po ssure, ao ° :,..1; isuess jil hat if the P o r „. succ eed t c heo N altered , 2 4 Lod oceug' isi c huge bulk; ob , in essencet.oo Protestsly that had shone upon her. And this he contended was . 1 Mush and amply sufficient. The sun-light did not change thy. nature-of the tiger, but it sent him to his den. He (continued the Hon. Gentleman) who set apart this island ler his own good and wise purposes, has shed a glory upon us, Re had here established true religion on a firm and innninishable basis, and appointed us to bear aloft that holy li g ht ` a rnong all nations. Bat, in fact, he thought, that if Protestantism was worth five years purchase, they might " mit the Roman Catholics into Parliament ; for if they were not et that moment in danger, such a circum stance nould have no effect. And he would ask, if, at a time when superstition and Popery had made so strong a lodgment in the minds of men—when wealth and power, and individual prejudices. and the sanctity of time, and the c o u f a t thoenn,cadioili Ol lol ( y reverence, were all enlisted upon the side Church, the truth was yet able to fight its way uPtca nds, want it rational to suppose, that now, "with all appliances itpp lia nces and means to boot," it should sink before had conquered at such mighty odds ? He did not think that they could apprehend any danger to Protestant um' unles s they supposed it was rotten at heart, for, if a sincere lone of religion continued to exist, it was impossible s it s (:01114 Auff e r in the least. If preaching had sufficed in - n u e other days to which he had alluded, to overturn Po r.ilty, was there, he would again. e slightest proba yof it then succeeding? s conenced, as he washirnself, hi „ n elf, tint there was not, he would entreat the House t° t urn Their regard towards Ireland, and see what could done for that unhappy country, if the measure then unde r consideration was not c a rried. They should recol al" tnat Ireland was at that moment a prey to a set of de er:Vies, whose constant endeavour and employment it to awake and excite in the breasts of the deluded pen- P l eall the bad principles and feelings of the human heart. -- ass The whole island had been converted into one wide D ' i nt of discord by the destructive eloquence of these un srtincinieel. men. And he again `offbegge o them to consider ' t h . L' e re was any other mean.s or hope rescuing it from r 4" Kva , p, than by gr toting the boon for which the Ro t: Catholics had so long prayed. He had simply one °n the observation to make. He had spoken very plainly subject of the . Rornan Catholic Church and religion is ,n 2 ' l heeprayed was, that justice might be done him— nle first p l ace t h e H ouse wou ld b e li eve t h a t he acted q ll 'cientiO ue l y in pursuing the course he had adopted—and . he second; that in speaking of the Catholic religion as iss e s "an done, h e was no t infl uence d by a n y wanton disre ro to the feelings of the Roman Catholics. If th e tru th gave pain, he was sorry for it, bat he could not ", 1 1 ) it. 'I% FIT7GERALD said that the Honourable and '4l'ne d Solicitor-General had made some observations, tha t wer e ca l cu l ate d to remove t h e impression that he had m a t was mad e u p on th e H ouse by th e H on . B arone t the ieinlbrought forward the motion that was then under l cons ideration of the House. He alluded to what had :1 en front that Hon. and Learned Gentleman on the sub t'hcat of the Treaty of Limerick, and to his having declared, statet i s ! his opinion the lion. Baronet had taken an un les,;,'"anelike view of that transaction. Now he (the L es --4 ' t of Kerry) differed completely from the Hon. and ea, - , r4 i Gentleman in this, for he thought that the Hen. view°llet had taken a most masterly and statesman-like t c ; of the whole transaction,' while, on the contrary, the r ect n ' t and Learned Gentleman seemed to have chiefly di elskT his attention to, he would not say, a point of special rigid in g , as it was not his wish to be uncivil, but to the in ss construction of an Act. The Hon. and Learned n s 4 , 4 tnan said, that the benefits to be derived from the sitthZ-h of Limerick were confined to the inhabitants of tb sr Y of Limerick, and to the army actually serving In answer to this he would beg to remind the 44 1 . °14 rable an d L e a rne d Gentlem an , th a t i n th e second th e ' l e of that Treaty, it was provided not only that all ssi di ltl llabitants of the city, but that all the officers and e ft) •' then und e r a rms for King James in Irel a nd, should h, cc y all the benefits and immunities that were conferred atd at treaty. Such were the provisions of this article, w iih i l f hs . t he e l and Learned Gentleman contended that n sth Intended to except all other classes of the Roman cin he would be endeavouring to lead the House to : 4P 4s P ts 4 se it was that Monarch's wish to confer greater be.. p ea „ 0 0 those c. ad rebelled against him than on his "'able In• is who h The neat point made ha' the Hon. ites u ije th. s nt•arned Gentleman was in introducing time his . tory of ntat f 11' h arose the code on winch the huh utes, out owhich 6 to the Sovereign was founded. He drew from .. all d i i ` n e opposite conclusion to that which had been insisted t the Hun. and Learned. Gentleman, for he considered If the oath were necessary, all the others were no t . Bat he Wnaild ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman , if heth was not excommunicated by a Bull from Rome, 4. 7 if her subjects were not absolved from their allegiance -.. nt they were not also excommunicated, and if this was not • • those days of terror so efficacious, that it might , 4 oe followed by treason ; and he would ask hi if, un -4511 these circumstancee, Elizabeth did not consider it It s ossuary to distrust the C a th o li cs of the better order. ter ollected too, that that great Sovereign once said in Whatp pi o f u he . r speeches to Parliament, " I always distinguish n h 10 religion from Papists in faction." And that was th e and his friends called upon the House to do when lb 3); e ntreated them to do away with the restrictions were felt so grievously by the Roman Catholics. "on. and Learned Gentleman had read extracts v e l' t in a mass of controversy, from which it appeared that yi e , a ttu t learn e d and distinguished individuals had puzeled the te ys ti m exceedingly. Upon this he had only one remark was, that if there were difficulties on this sub tl' c onnected with the church, it was with respect to te e securities themselves, but not to going into Commit s)), these secur iti e s. The Hon. and Learned Gentle- E' t herefor e oug ht, lik e th e H on . B a ronet who preceded , thto have confined himself to the general question, and co g ene points for future discussion. He should have ein e , ( - 1 himself to the security in respect of civil ohedi- Is: tont was offered by the Catholics. In the year 1759, s t ,,' o Pitt had addressed the Universities upon the subject, es o i n 1 791 he had received answers of so favourable a in, that he at once proceeded to legislate in favour of tr i , s ,lotnan Catholics. He (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) was ex telY desirous to address himself to this topic; for it ti t h is fate, at the time a legislative union between the tl,; c ountries was proposed, to express his concurrence in ct e , P°l lcn of the measure. By' this he in some measure es, th ..." ln itted himself in the eyes of many who loved their t rY, and he was exposed to a vast deal of obloquy. ne t i: c lous, however, of the purity of his motive!, he bore it d o out repining ; for he was then, as now convinced that (,r'ther course could be taken consistent with the freedom ii s ,", country. It would be unnecessary for him to enter 4 ' l • the motives in which the Union had originated.— se t " likely Mr. Pitt's intention to bring about such mea tso'n 'arose from the collision which took place between the st 4 harliaments on the Regency question. He was in all t} ability struck with the danger of such collisions, and p sl nfor the first time looked to the possibility of extending 0, t1 ,' 41 freedom to both countrine. But Mr. Pitt gave tidy other snore legal and more pressing reasons. of ne, l - "n the first was, the conspiracy of the United Irish nse Which was as formidable, as combined, as artful, let alarming a con s piracy as ever existed. Five tn,,,: c ed tho usan d men were un ited for the purpose of e no rninis the existing Government, and putting -the ce: t rY under the protection of France. The conspiracy nt r 4l enced in the North of Ireland, and time conspirators n tl ,' At first exclusively Protestants, because Catholics flee e xcluded on the opinion of the French Directory, that W ere n o t to be trusted, the Directory having argued ttto b Y the rules of their faith they would be compelled I 'n e c tlf " 3 all to their priests, and that the priests being Cis s e ven would unfold the whole conspiracy to the i iyt rri tnent. The next reason assigned was, time invasion 1 '41 14 ° Fren c h i n 1796. If Iloche, one of the ablest Gene tlerisnat ever lived, and at the heed of an army of 15,000 cots ti nd landed, as was proposed, at Bantry Ba y , nothing : n ae pr even t e d hint from marching o n to Du blin , e ~y tt Q tr.l°ine lt b % the rebels of the North. I t was a cir et anee purely accidental t ha t occasioned the disappoint , nes a nd on thi s c i rcums t ance it was that the fate of Ire nleiii"Pended. Th e next an d most aw f u l ca use was time Iv ies °ll in the Catholic parts of Ir e land. The statement '"44' thin document contained (the Right Hon. Gentle ihat t l r' n still reading from Mr. Cook e n pamphlet) wa s, I~ t 4es then existing condition of Ireland was such a po i"tail),uoossly—the state of affairs in that country was r ( "tstt r ß ° dangeroue—that time proposition for legislative e;,! r un, and for the great measure of the Union, arose i nne y . iat state and condition as matter of political eco s'tnl ' to In the first place, that measure would be calcu -I°'os e ntinguieh the rebellion which then prevailed in t P l . l 4" ' of th e ki ng d o m ; a n d in the second, it would ei:,eect of exnguishinn a local governent, the "ne e n ni ff ch had bee ti n marked isv a distracter of m such vio 415tIti,:°1nueli corruption, and such infinite mismanage c?entri: c ould be remedied only by the union of the two N.l niet te „ ° 'es-(llear, hear. )--It was against this system of , el e ' "t corruption, and misrule, that Lord Cornwallis Iv liiel, m t g h 'waged an unsparing sear ; and, iu the views ''nte st ti nt enlightened Nobleman entertained, both of the ~ten the evil an d o f t h e nature o f t h e reme d y , it had con es Plin Fitzgeraldnn fortune, as it was his pride, 4 n'orsi tis ';'- ‘ (Cheers.)—The objects of that Noble Lord, ; 110 st esi q i met with his perfect concurrence, and hie s emi Loran I ." ' support ; an d i t was th e circums t ance of 's hinn at that me, and on this momentos we • ho e n , e e l, ured av him .e, with his most unreserved confidenc u e te r , whi...s!ced him now to address the House upon mat , ` ll render e d it necessary for him to enter into some details, and to read some diseuments, the value and importance of which could alone supply any adequate apo logy for the trespass he was committing on the time of the House—knowing, as he did know, how reluctant the House usually were to listen to statements and documents of this nature. (Hear.) The Mr. Cooke of whom he had been speaking was, at the time this pamphlet was published, Under Secretary of State for the Civil Depart ment in Ireland ; a man of very considerable talents, and in principle, although favourable to the Union, warmly opposed to the question of Catholic Emancipation. Yet here was his own declaration to that effect—" that the language which was held at that time by Mr. Pitt in Eng land, and Lord Castlereagh in Ireland, was, that it was necessary to hold out to the Sectaries of Ireland the pro spect and consideration of the advantages which they would be likely to realise from carrying the Union in que.:, tion into effect,"—that, however hopeless, their case before the Union must be undoubtedly considered, there must re sult from its accomplishment all those future substantial benefits to them, of which Mr. Cooke then proceeded to w here the measure w as mos t ear speak. In one paragraph, nestly recommended, the writer. .expressly mid, addressing himself precisely to the great community which was not of the Established Church, " An opening may be left in any plan of Union, far the Suture admission of the Roman Catholics to a participation. of all the rights and privileges enjoyed by their Protestant fellow-subjects." At that time every other privilege but that of the exercise of the elective fran chise had been already granted to the Roman Catholics, so that the allusion was clearly to the exception just noticed. His (Mr. Fitzgerald's) Hon. Friend had quoted a passage from a speech of Mr. Pitt's ; but he (Mr. Fitzgerald) could show, if it were necessary for him to do so, the per fect concurrence of all the members of that Government and the friends of Mr. Pitt, not less than of Mr. Pitt him self, on the great question of admitting the Roman Ca tholics. He could show, from similar papers and letters, this concurrence in all the 'Ministers of that time—Mr. Pitt, Mr. Dundas, and others in the English House of Commons, and Lord Grenville; and in the House of Lords, Lord Minto. They all agreed in declaring that, as long as Ireland existed as a separate Government, it was in vain to hope for a remedy for the afflictions it entailed upon her people; but that her people, in the event of an union's taking place with England, they might look forward, with full confidence to the removal of them.—The Right Hon. Gentleman, in confirmation of his statement, here read the . following extract from a speech delivered by the late Lord Castlereagh, in the Irish Parliament : " The Protestant, so long as the Establishment re mains separate, and is impeached on local grounds, will feel his power, his property, and his Establishment inse cure, and must naturally look with distrust and jealousy on the Catholic. The Catholic will feel proportionate alienation and resentment, and will continually urge his claims against the establishment of the minority; and there appears no hope whatever of a termination of dis trust, jealousy, anti alarm. But so soon as the Church Establishment of the two kingdoms shall be incorporated into one Church, the Protestant will feel himself at once identified with the population and property of the empire, and the Establishment will be placed upon its natural basis. The cause of distrust must vanish with the removal of weakness ; strength and confidence will produce libera lity ; and the claims of the Catholics may be temperately discussed and impartially decided before an Imperial Par liament, divested of those local circumstances which pro • duce irritation and jealousy, and prevent a fair and reason able decision." It was a curious fact, that when Mr. Cooke published his pamphlet, so decidedly was this pledge considered to be given in it, on his part, as an organ of the Irish Govern ment, that Doctor Duigenan, at once imputed to him, all his zeal, opposed as he was to the Catholics, in favour of the Union, to a deeply laid and insidious scheme for the subversion of the Protestant Establishment.—(Hear, bear, ) But the language of Mr. Dundas, at the same period, both in and out of Parliament, was still more decisive and ex plicit; and the House would he pleased to observe, that the pamphlet from which he (Mr. Fitzgerald) was now read ing, and other documents on the same matter, were printed expressly and avowedly for circulation among the Members of the Irish Government, Legislature, and Aristocracy, with the design of propitiating them to the. They were all of them printed moreover at the public expense.— (Hear, hear.) The expressions of Loid pinto were equally strong and clear to the fact, of this concession of the claims of the Catholics being held nut as the certain result of ac complishing that Union. It was perfectly notorious that all these papers and speeches, especially Mr. Pitt's speech in favour of the Union and of this among its other anticipated effects, were distributed and disseminated among the officers commanding districts, and gene rally among the most influential people in Ireland.— Now, if all this did not amount, in the English Govern ment, to as strong and. express a pledge to give the Roman Catholics emancipation from civil and political disabilities, he owned he was at a less to understand what meaning was to be attributed to particular words. He had taken the liberty, on the present occasion, of making himself a witness before the House, because, having supported the Union, he never could forgive himself if he were now to refrain from apprising Parliament that it was the avowed and ac knowledged intention of the Government of that day (an in tention never concealed or disguised from him), that the Union was to be immediately followed by the emancipation of the Roman Catholic:.—(Loud cheers.)—True it was that, upon one occasion, Mr. Fox had incidentally said that he did not understand any pledge to have been given by Mr. Pitt, pending the existence of the Irish Legislature, which was binding on the English Parliament. But of course Mr. Pitt could not give his answer to the representations of the great Catholic body in such a way as to pledge the Par liament of England to any measure, which was then one for the cognizance and consideration of the Irish Legislature. And to show how indisposed the great body of the latter were to a question which this Government was then push ing so earnestly upon it, be would state that he well remembered, in one instance, to have been one of a minority of fifteen upon the question, out of the three hundred Members of whom that Legislature con sisted. But he might further appeal to Mr. Pitt's own letters to the Catholic community of Ireland, for conclu sive and irresistible evidence of this understanding and wishes open the subject; and after all this, part of the question turned upon the consideration of a simple point, namely—what was the intention of the Union ? Every man of honour and public principle would admit to him, he was sure, that if the members of the Catholic body had been induced to support the Union by the prospect of cer tain advantages which had been held out and promised to them as the condition of their acquiescence in that arrange ment, nothing could be so base as to leave them in the lurch, after that arrangement had been 50 carried into exe cution.—(Hear.) —He proposed, in the next place, to read a letter to the House, which he had received from a Ro man Catholic gentleman, on the subject of Lord Corn wallis's wishes and intentions in respect of the Union. That letter (which he had been authorised by the writer so to communicate) had come from a gentleman whom he would name, and than whom, when he named him, every body wh o h a d the pleasure of his acquaintance would al- low that no purer, or more honourable, or unimpeachable testimony, could he adduced, he meant Mr. Howard, of Corby.—(Hear.) The letter was as follows - " 'Whatever was at first the subject of conversation, it soon turned to the impending measure of union, and with me generally to the interests the Catholics would derive odious m onopo l y, from it. lie always ca ll e d the exclusion of Catholics the and repeatedly urged, that the measure was the only means of getting rid of it. But he further, particularly on Catholics I two occasions, desired me to speak to all the knew, and which I did, to urge them to place confidence in him for success. if they will only place their trust in me, it will be to their .best advantage. 01 eaurse I repeated this to every Catholic I knew, and amen.- the rest to Lord Fingal], who will remember it, and to whom he bad said this and snore. I reollect also, that Dr. Moy- Cornwallis had spoken to him to the lan told me, that Lord same effect. Ido not believe that Lord Cornwallis way' capable of deception ; and inferred then, as I must now, that this had been assented to by both the King and the Cabinet (and though this did not amount to an absolute pledge, in words, yet, from a Gentleman, and a Chief Governor, it could not be interpreted otherwise). - I can not attribute the failure in any other way than to the sub sequent Fitzgerald tsta in the nex teofthei(ingm t ind" 3place read from notes which Mr. Howa rd had minuted down, s everal of these convex. - happened or on the succeeding morn i ngs ; the s ations with Lord Cornwallis, either o n the same evenings f t () h i lt . w t i l n i e g y is an extrac t : "Speaking o f the inflamed state of the mind b etween sect and sect, I sa id that I thou g ht it was owin g t o him that it had not come t o the full extent of mutual extermi nation, which I conceived had been daily gaining ground. This Lord C. said, must have been the event. I trusted, however, that with respect to the Catholics, as it ap peared to be the interest to conciliate them, that would be an object of the Union, and that without it, I thought the Union was nothing. He repeated that certainly without it the Union was nothing ; that it was, impossible to bring anything forw ar d before, because in an Irish Parliament it would not be carried. I said that, however, the silence and mystery created both uneasiness and impatience. He answered, that he believed it to be so, but that he thought the Catholics had shown a great deal of temper, more than he could have expected, by some joiuing for it, none ap- paring actively against it, and not coming forward to distress him with their claims, wished they would place confidence in him. We had some conversation about an establishment for the clergy, which he said be bad talked over with Lerd Fingal, whom he highly esteemed—that, depend upon it, the Catholics will be the first objects of consideration when they were able to act free from shackles. He said that he was most fully convinced that an establish ment for the Clergy would be most amply compensated by • . . loyalty ; that he knew priests were not - their own masters. I repeated that a loyal priest with a disloyal flock must starve. He said, he knew mare were driven to silence and inaction, or take part with their flock. Such was the opinion of the great Lord Cornwallis, one of tke clearest headed, most upright, candid, and intelligent men who had ever possessed the Chief Authority in Ire land. From one of these minutes, dated the 13th of December, immediately after the Union had taken place, it seemed that Lord Cornwallis actually authorised Lord Fingall to call upon him, from his place in the House of Lords, immediately the Act of Union had been so com pleted, to give Emancipation to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. —(Cheers.)—Could any thing more strongly de monstrate his Lordship's own prepossession and under standing, as to the faith upon which that Union had been effected ?—(Hear.)--- He himself (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) asked him about that period, why the measure of emanci pation had not been stipulated for, as an integral condition of the Union? Lord Cornwallis replied— ,, you know what difficulty we had to carry the Union at all. Had we brought forward the question of emancipation at the same time, all the Protestant supporters of the other measure, the vital necessity of which to the welfare, the existence of Ireland we are so agreed upon, would have flown a from and deserted us in alarm. But what doubt can you feel upon the subject? You know well enough, what our English Parliament is. Of whom does it consist? Of Mr. Pitt and his Cabinet. Of Mr. Fox and his party. Mr. Pitt's opinions and wishes you know to be most decided, and most favourable to Roman Catholic Emancipation. Mr. Fox, if he were in power, is equally pledged upon principle to grant it. What else then re mairel ?—(Loud cheers.)- , -He (Mr. F.) begged pardon. He did at this moment see an Hon. Gent. behind him who certainly would have remained, he meant the Honourable Member for Dorsetshire.—(A laugh.)—He said this of that gentleman (Mr. Bankes) with•perfect respect, because the Hon. Member did at that time, as he had since done, manfully and fairly avow his decided opposition to the proposal of so emancipating the Catholics. That Hon. Gentleman would have been averse to any measure which had for its object to benefit, to relieve the Catholic com munity. Now he had only mentioned the solitary excep tion of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, because the ex ception rather proved the general rule; and upon the single as well as singular condition in which the Hon. Gentleman must have stood, the House might infer how absolutely the general feeling of Parliament must at that day have been in favour of this question.—(Hear, hear.) — But almost every body in these days knew, that had it not been for the unfortunate fatality of Mr. Pitt in coming down, so immediately after the Union, to recommend emancipation, the latter question must have been carried in the English Parliament without a dispute, without even a murmur. If the Aristocracy of Ireland, between whom and other parties in the State, he (Mr. F.) had been the organ of frequent communication, had been displaced from their stations, and had lost the influence and controul which they formerly exercised over all the rest of their commu nity, let not this be imputed to them, as his Hon. and Learned Friend would impute it, as matter of blame, but rather as the consequence of their long-continued and most unjust exclusion from political office. The Right Hon. Gentleman here read the paper signed by Mr. Pitt and others on going out of office, upon the Catholic Question, which Mr. Pitt and his friends, addressing the Catholic body, stated that " The leading part of his Majesty's Ministers, finding insurmountable obstacles to the bringing forward measures of concession to the Catholic body, whilst in office, have felt it impossible to continue in administration, under their inability. to propose it, with the circumstances necessary to carrying the measure with all its advantages ; and they have retired from his Majesty's service, considering this line of conduct is most likely to contribute to its ultimate success. The Catholic body will, therefore, see how • much their future hopes must depend upon strengthening their . cause by good conduct in the meantime. They will pru dently consider their prospect as arising from the persons who now espouse their interests, and compare them with those which they 'could look to from any other quarter: they may rely on the zealous support of all those who retire, and of many who remain i❑ office, when • it can be given with a prospect of success. They may be assured that Mr. Pitt will do his utmost to establish their cause in the public favour, and prepare the way to their finally attaining their objects; and the Catholics will feel, that as Mr. Pitt could not concur in a hopeless attempt to force it now, that he must at all times repress with the same decision as if he held an adverse opinion, any uncon stitutional conduct in the Catholic body. Under these cir cumstances, it was not to be doubted that the Catholics will take the most loyal, dutiful, and patient line of con duct—that they will not suffer themselves to be led into measures which can, by any construction, give a handle to the opposers of their wishes, either to interpret their prin ciples or to raise an argument for resisting their claims; — but that, by their prudent and exemplary demeanour, they will afford additional grounds to the growing number of their advocates, to enforce their claims on proper occa sions, until their objects can be finally and advantageously attained." It had been said of Mr. Pitt, that if he had lived to the present time he would have seen reason to change his sen timents upon the subject of the Catholic Claims. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) did not believe there was any foundation for such an opinion, and he referred to the historical fact of the discussions in the Cabinet, shortly after the Union, ' Ito prove that Mr. Pitt would never, upon frivolous grounds, have deprived the Catholic Body of those advan tages which were held out to them as an inducement to as- ' sent to that measure. He knew, personally, that Mr. Pitt was most anxious to realise the expectations of the Catholics. Lord Castlereagh was the staunch advocate of the Catholics in the debate in the Cabinet, and the argu ments of his opponent, who was the leading opponent of the Catholic claims of that day, Mr. Pitt had pronounced insufficient and unsatisfactory. Lord Castlereagh had favoured him with a copy of the arguments put upon paper by him upon that occasion, and, with the permission of the House, he would read an extract from the conclusion, as well for the sake of the argument itself, as to prove the consistency of that great Statesman in respect of his opi nions on this subject. The Honourable Member then read as follows : " Should the necessary concessions be decided on, th e advantages of its proceeding from Government will natu • rally suggest themselves. Much benefit alight arise from the boon being attributable to that settlement under which we are hereafter to live. It would make the Catholics in Ireland feel, that their exclusion has been the necessary consequence of a separate Constitution, and that their ad vantages have arisen out of an incorporation with Great Britain. It is idle to hope that Dissenters of any deno mination or description can ever be so zealously attached subjects as those who are of the Established Religion ; but the question is, what system, without hazarding the power of the State itself, is best calculated, if not warmly to at tach, at least to disarm the hostility, of those classes in the community who cannot be got rid of, and must be go verned. " This latter consideration is of most , pressing import ance with respect to Ireland. That kingdom must in fact be considered as a country of security, and if we are to in dulge an expetation that it may be redeemed from its pre sent miseries, it must be by the adoption of some system, which, without relaxing the energy of Government, shall relieve the public mind from its fundamental principles of perpetual struggle. Unless the power and stability of the United Government shall afford the means in safety of adopting some principles of compromise, amongst the con tending factious, the difficulty of governing the country will rapidly increase, as every war adds materially to the relative importance of the dissenting interests. If the same internal struggle continues, Great Britain will derive little beyond an increasing expence from the Union. If she is to govern Ireland upon a garrison principle, perhaps, in abolishing the separate Parliament, she has parted as well with her most effectual means, as with her most perfect justification. In uniting with Ireland, she has abdicated the Colonial rela tion ; and if that country is hereafter to prove a resource rather than a burthen to Great Britain, an effort must be made to govern it through the public mind. " It is obvious that the Government of Ireland has diffi culties incidental to it, which will require a much greater proportion of iv Ministerialatten p t o io o n r thana in S d e o o s tl t a r r i i o d us d , id an a t u l b o - f sient to the Union. Scotland, at that (lay, was but thinly inhabited—the people habits so peculiarly regular, that, with the exception of the Rebellion, which sprung from a feeling of attachment to the exiled Family, it may be said to have almost go. verned itself. Ireland, on the contrary, is highly popu lous, acquires wealth more rapidly than civilization. It is inhabited by Dissenters from the Establishment, split into factions, and these factions committed against each other, with all the rancour of past injuries as well as present distinctions. The law is imperfectly obeyed, and very ill administered by the .Magistrates, who are too frequently partizans rather than judges. In short, the tranquillity of the country is alone preserved, even in the degree in which it exists, by the perpetual intervention of tha hand of Go vernment, exercising the most summary powers." In the view of the question, then so ably displayed, he knew that Mr, Pitt cordially concurred. But it was contended, that, although in those tranquil times the Go vernment might have acceded to the claims of the Catho lics, new principles and doctrines had since been broached of a character which gave a new aspect to the question, and forced upon the Government a new line of policy. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) was not disposed to depreciate the state of the public mind in Ireland. On the contrary, he looked at it with considerable apprehension. But he was quite sure that, whatever change had taken place, had been wrought by the postponement of hopes they had been led to conceive. (Hear, hear, hear.) And lie was also sure that the state of the public mind in Ireland was not one .which could possibly remain still. (Hear, hear.) Ile knew well the state of Ireland, and if h e were as great an• enemy to the Catholic claims as he was their friend—if he were as much opposed to them as the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary Peel), he should not wish to force separation between the Roman Catholics of Ireland and the Pope. That separation the Irish would effect of themselves if left alone. Five years 1 ago he had said as much to Lord Liverpool. Upon that oc casion he foretold to his Lordship that that would happen which was actually now in progress. He had told him that the Catholic Clergy, who were then in a conciliatory mood, would, every day the measure of Emancipation was withheld, become less disposed to conciliation, and that the question which they had at heart would become more of a national question. (Hear.) And how was it now ? The priesthood were a political, organized body. There was no Occasion to conceal the fact, for it was publicly avowed---it could not he concealed, it was boasted by the Catholic leaders that the entire population of Ireland was organised"— that " they might now be moved by a simultaneous action for - one specific purpose."—(Loud cheers l'rom both sides of the House.) He (Mr. Fitzgerald) sincerely believed it •te be the case, that the Catholic leaders had the power to wield the whole Catholic population of that country as one man.—(Continued cheers.)-- . -But, let the House mark the lesson:to be drawn from the facts. Two years ago this was - net the case. _(Loud cheers.)--Four years ago he had prophecied to Lord Liverpool that it would come to pass in ten years ; but it had been accom plished in less time. Ten years ago, however, it would have been impossible to accomplish such a thing ; and 20 years ago the Catholic leaders had no voice at all for such a purpose—they had no power then—how had they ac quired it to so fearful an extent ? Government had been • warned of this consequence all along; and the present aw ful state of things in Ireland must be considered as the act and measure of those who had continued pertinaciously to oppose the claims of the Catholics.—(Leud cheers.) — Upon their heads .be the awful and painful responsibility of answering to Ireland, to the people of England, and to the British Parliament, for this state of things at present, and for the consequences of it.—(Cheers.) He did not mean to say that the Catholic population of Ireland were united for any had purpose, That they - were discontented and dis affected tient protracted hope-- . -that they were united as one man in their discontent,• could not be denied. And, as the Solicitor-General had that night told them, that, so long as the Catholic doctrines remained un changed, Catholics could not be admitted to an equal participation in the Constitution,—according to him they must remain excluded for ever.—(Hear, bear, hear.)—He begged the House to consider what was, in the mean time, the condition of Country Gentlemen in Ireland, in the midst of myriads of an 'organized fected population, with power at once to destroy all the Protestant 'property in the country. (Hear, !tear.) He did not mean to say that he was afraid of any undue result; but these elements of danger, panic, and alarm, existed, and might be moulded almost to any purpose. (Hear, hear, hear.) He should think he deserted his duty if he shrunk from and• disclosure of circumstances affecting this question in that House. (Hear.) He might refer to it as a fact well known, and which could not •be concealed, that there was in Europe at present what was called strong ApoStolical feeling, the meaning of which, he believed, was an ultra-Catholic feeling ; and there could he as little doubt that the active tendency of that feeling, as regarded Ire land, was, to urge that country into disaffection to the English Government. In like manner, in the United States of America, he could assure the House that there were in that country thousands of Irish Catholics who had quitted their country in a most exasperated state of hear)-;--and from their great activity, zeal, and intelligence, possessed great influence among the Re publicans of North America. Now, what he wished to know was,'whether the House proposed to leave the ques tion unsettled, and Ireland exposed to the workings of these . tWri hostile powers. It was a correct view of the case to state, that the population of Ireland was organised in disaffection to this country, and he was convinced that . . unless some enre for that feeling were applied, Ireland could not remain with security in connection with this country.—(Cheers.) Mr. G. MOORE addressed the House in oppesition to the motion. We understood the Hon. Gentleman to con tend that the Treaty of Limerick would not bear the con struction placed on it by the advocates of concession to the Catholics. It was remarkable that Acts were passed by William the Third, shortly after the date of that Treaty, in direct violation of the interpretation now put upon it, and yet no clamour was raised there, when the Treaty and the Claims it was said to guarantee must have been fresh in the minds of all. He could not resist making one observation on the argument of the Hon. Member who had just sat down, with respect to the Union. He (Mr. Moore) did n ot d e ny that it was held out at the time, in argument, that the Union might promote the views of the Catholics; but then it was to be distinctly observed, that it was not the object itself that was to be accomplished by the Union, but the discussion merely was to be promoted.—(Mur murs from the Opposition benches.) He maintained that Mr. Pitt specifically argued that the advantage of a Legis lative Union would be, that the Protestants, as well as the Catholics, would have their views and interest; more fully promoted by discussion. On the 13th May, ISOS, Mr. Pitt, in reply to Mr. Fox, thus delivered himself : " I also felt that in no possible case, previous to the Union, could the privileges now demanded be given, con sistently with a due regard to the Protestant interest in Ireland, to the internal tranquillity of that kingdom, the frame and structure of our Constitution, or the probability of the permanent connection of Ireland with this country. It is true, Sir, that after the Union I saw the subject in a different light ; but whilst that event was in contempla tion I did state, as the Hon. Ge rifleman says, that the measure would make a material differenoe in my opinion. But he has also stated, what is very true, that I did not make a distinct pledge ; on the contrary, I believe the line of argument I took was, that if it should be thought right to give what the Catholics required, it might be given after the Union nit!' more safety to the empire ; or, if it were thought proper to refuse giving it, that it might then be refused without producing those disastrous conse quences which might have been apprehended before the Union."—(Loud cheers.) 'Ha hoped he had now redeemed the pledge he had given to support his assertion, by the authority of Mr. Pitt.— (Ilear, hear.) It was well known that the Royal mind was calmed with reference to the measure of the Union, by the belief that it would put an end to the claims of the Catholics. The Hon. Member here read from the corre spondence of his late Majesty upon this subject, lately pub lished, a passage which contained, amongst other expres sions, the assurance that the King had assented to the mea sure of the Union, because he believed " that it would • shut the door against any fu r t h e r atempts on the part of the Catholics."—(Hear, hear.) Nothing, h e a pp re h en d e d, could be more conclusive as to the manner in which the Union was unde rs t oo d at the tim e o f i ts pass i ng, than th i s. The Hon. Baronet had passed a glancing eulogium upon the great deeds and renown of our C a th o li c ances t ors . But be (Mr. Moore) begged permission to t e ll hi m th a t no deeds of theirs acquired for them so muc h g l or y as th e ir noble struggle agains t ;the encroaehinents of the Papal power.--(Loud These began as early as the reign of Henry the cheers,) ourtlad the fa c t h e th oug ht t en d e d t o e stablish the proposition that the c hara c t e ristic of the Bri tish Constitution dependenttitutiouw'as,ohnat t r l ro m R pou t , , e ra r , an spi p ri o tu n a t l iff o , a temporal, j t d a to the slight es t i nterference with the British Go vernment.—(Hear.) r having That proposition was establkhed with protestant Ascendancy at the Revolution of 1:i88. So long as that provision existed, which prohibited the Ki n g from being a Papist, or from marrying a Papist, the strongest argument must exist against admitting the Ca tholic to power. There was no question on which the public of England laboured under such a delusion as they did with respect to the Claims of the Roman Catholics. There could not be a greater delusion than to suppose that the disturbances of Ireland were at all connected with what was called Catholic Emancipation. It was grossly u njust towards them to assert that the Catholics, as a body, were mixed up with the sanguinary associations which devastated that unhappy country. Neither let it be said, that as on the one hand the Catholics tale no share as a body in the disturbances of the country, that on the other there existed in Ireland way class whose efforts were sufficient to overcome, or even for any time to resist the proceedings of those associations. Once for all, then, he hoped there would be an end to all arguments founded on the assump tion, that the refusal or retardation of the present demand would have any thing to do with the tranquillity of the country. Neither was it to be endured that any Hon, Mem- her should affirm, that the Protestants of Ireland demanded concession for the Catholics as indispensable for the preser vation of public tranquillity—nothing could be further from their real sentiments—nothing could be more unfounded in fact. It would be impossible to bring such a proposition before them without its being instantly scouted. It was inconceivable how any one acquainted with tie state of Ireland could for a moment entertain the opinion that the Catholics of that country were collectively considered to be regarded as parties to the disturbances. Were there no other consideration to restrain them a regard to the security of their own estates ought, surely, to be more than sufficient for that purpose. Indeed it had frequently been asserted, that the Catholic gentry were never wanting in efforts for that purpose—for years their conduct had been held up as a pattern of all that was loyal and praiseworthy in the best of subjects —as having made every effort that men could make to restrain the turbulent temper of the ab knew ou re r t s t as peopl em en of .. people, acted upon as it was by the excitements which Ireland—he a sa i those who stood forth as their leaders uniformly supplied ; and but that it was so supplied Ireland would be as tranquil other k c n o e u w n country e upon o a t: earth. tenants bei s of society in general ; and it was only common justice to them to state, that their dispositions at all times led them to occupy themselves in the pursuits of real industry—that their minds Were ever bent upon cherishing domestic feelings, and contributing to the maintenance of public and private tranquillity. He, from his own knowledge, knew them to be as brave and as generous a race as could exist, much more intent upon securing to themselves the advantages of industry than o. engaging in political dissentions, were they not stimulated by the fac tious interference of men whose sole object was disturbance. —lt was not by what was called Emancipation that the improvement of such men was to be effected—it was by ensuring them employment—by diffusing amongst them the blessing of education—it was by such means alone that the improvement of Ireland could be pursued with any suc cess. It was only by that the condition of society in that country could be at all assimilated to the condition of so ciety in England.- It would only he by the moral, the in tellectual, and the religious improvement of that people, that any thing like beneficial effects could be produced. He was perfectly aware of the ferment which prevailed in Ire land ; but he entirely attributed that ferment to the Ca tholic Association, to the dangerous tendency of which body it was impossible for any one acquainted with the state of Ireland to be insensible. The dangerous system of organisation also to which that body gave rise, was what the übsereers of Ireland were equally alive to ; but this topic he would scarcely have adverted to had it not been so much dwelt upon by those who had preceded him in the debate. If he thought the concessions demanded by the Catholics would have the effect of tranquillizing Ireland and promoting its general prosperity, he should be the last to oppose it.— It was alleged, in defence of the Cathodic Association, that their sole object was the repeal of the Penal Laws, by which their body was aggrieved. If that were really and sincerely their object, why did they take so wide a range in all their proceedings—why were they so extensive—why so indefinite—why were they found discussing every public measure? scarcely a measure was brought forward in either House of Parliament that did not undergo discussion by the Catholic Association; that was not made the vehicle of topics of the most irritating character, and treated with the most intemperate vehemence. The Catholic Asso ciation was a monstrous anomaly, from which alone the mischievous importance attached to the present question was derived. He put it to the House whether the con cessions which the Catholics demanded would have the effect of remedying the evils under which Ireland laboured —would it raise the rent of the land ?---(A laugh, and cries of hear, hear.) Would it improve the condition of the poor—would it bring the waste lands into cultivation— would it tempt the capitalist to explore the mines, or to work the collieries with which that coun try abounded—would it transfer the manufactures of this country to that—would it create that confidence in the tranquillity of the population, which it was alleged was ne cessary to produce the transfer of British capital? The Hon. Member then went on to deny that it would have any of those efiects ; but that, especially as it regarded the transfer of British capital, it was quite an error to suppose tnat the existence cf the disabilities of which the Catholics complained had any effect in deterring British capitalists from embarking their property in Irish speculations. It was well known that British merchants were ready to en gage in the wildest and most forlorn speculations, equally regardless of climate, soil, and government, equally indif ferent to the convulsions of nature and of society. Wherever there existed the slightest probability of a productive return, they were found actively urging the pursuits of commerce in every part of the world. Recent experience had afforded incontestable evidence, that the application of British ca pital in Ireland was not readily effected. In 1826, during the sunshine, or what he might call the comet blase of commercial speculation, it shone most plenteously in the South of Ireland, and in the midst of White Boy disturb ances the linen and cotton manufactures experienced its fos- tering influence. The fact was, that so long as reasonable prospects of return existed, so long British capital would be freely expended in Ireland, without the capitalists troubling themselves for a single moment with the Catholic Question. In entering a little further into the present discussion, and in considering what might be the probable effects of unqualified concession, he assured the House that he had no intention of discussing in detail the doctrines and tenets attributed to the Catholics, and which had so often formed the subject of angry debate. It was the boast of the professors of the Catholic frith that their Church could adapt itself to any form of Govern ment, and to any varying circumstances. Recent occur rences had given evidence of this in a manner which he should conceive little favourable to the views of those by whom that topic had been urged. For his part he was willing to be lieve that they would pay due respect to an oath ; he did nut fear that, if they possessed power, they would revive the despotism of the middle ages ; but he did contend that the modern spirit of the Church of Rome had a tendency to inflict evils which no lover of his species could regard .without apprehension and abhorrence. The Hon. Gentle man then adverted to the renewal of the Inquisition, the revival of the Jesuits, and the rescripts of the Pope, as in dications of the unchanged and unchangeable spirit of the Church of Rome ; and after entering into a long argu ment, derived from the history of Elizabeth and James the First, to prove the influence of the clergy over the laity, concluded by declaring his intention ti vote against the motion. Mr. DOGHERTY said, for many years he had been an attentive observer of all that was passing in Ireland, and trusted that he had observed what was passing on that dis tressful scene in the temper which entitled him to he called somewhat impartial. He had mingled with the ardent and the violent of both parties, without haying- imbibed the prejudices of either—he therefore hoped that they, the House, would bear with him, while he shortly stated the conclusion at which his mind arrived after long and atten tive observation. He felt that he should not be dealing fairly or honestly by the House, if he did not at once avow his full persuasion that the time had arrived at which the question ought to be set at rest. He had heard the wish to see it set at rest expressed in a lmost every quarter, and of this he was assured, that it could only be set at rest in One way. Three-and-twenty years had elapsed since ppo lie s iheardopposite, ad who the question took a first lead debated thein tlat , ac House, 4f) and the distinguished individual who then sat on the front bench Catholic Claims, said then, as be (Mr. D.) said now, there was but one way of setting the question at rest— namely, by acceding to the just demands of the Ro man Catholics. The motion made three-and-twenty years ago was met and negatived by a large majority. The dis tinguished advocate of the Catholics most truly said that adverse majorities would never crush the just demands of the Roman Catholics—the question was before the House then, and for ever. Three-and.twenty years ago there was a majority against the Catholics of 112, but that was found altogether insufficient to crush the just claims of millions. For three-and-twenty years, year after year, the question had been brought under their consideration, and the uni that i t o ti n u s :g e pt h ( ,r i a t en t s o e t to present state. t e ss r c t s e l: t i te e l whether nh i ot t setou be not m o so f un,a t : l het i e rlioen c o snotg u d;e n er t t r rl) y : n 7 o ltil l in v iiieeiyn s i c i person whose opinion was of the slightest value imagintd there l a g. s t i i tl bfte feeling could th time had arrived at which the Legislature of the coun try were called upon to deal • with the question in some way or other. There were three possible modes in which they might ifizet it—the first was, to permit things to r emain as they were—the second was to accede to the requests of the Roman Catholics—the third was to adopt each mea cures of coercion as must for ever extinguish the claim.' of the Irish Catholics. It was for the House to say which of these three modes they would adopt. Of the coercive pro cess he could not imagine that it would find many advo cates, even amongst those most adverse to the a dmission of Catholics to political power ; for there w as no attentive ob server of the past history and present state of Ireland, that must not anticipate the utter futility ° touch a system—tha! must not be convinced that it would impart strength to the cause which it was intended to su bdue—that it would o n l y accelerate that consummation which it was the object of the opponents of the lion. Baronet's motion to retard. H e b a d no wish to enlarge on the details of the subject, but rather, i n g l anc i n g at them, to point out the danger which might arise, for although his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Moore) bad pointed out facts in which he agreed, yet he totally disagreed in the concha . sins drawn from them. He Would wish, that laying aside all prejudices or preconceived opinions, and' all arguments about the Treaty of Limerick, or the Union, the House would calmly examine the subject. He wished that every Member should be like the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Percival,) who had come that night, who bad inquired into the question, and who bad come to a conclusion different from that he formerly maintained.... He had no hesitation in saying, if they all did so, they would at all events come to the decision that Ireland could not remain as it was. The next point he would come to was, were they to re-enact those laws which were repealed? lie had heard a distant hint—(hear, hear) — a hint unembodied in words, as to tite means which were to be taken; but still that there were means. There was no man ever yet hold enough in that House to say that in this enlightened age and nation there should be a return to a state of coercion. That was not the way—it might, no doubt, dissolve one obnoxious association, but it would make every man himself the chairman of one much snore deadly and dangerous. He would, or., the other hand, advise the Government to go forward, and he wished to hear distinctly and plainly what was the objection to doing so. He had heard violence of conduct alleged as one ; and he had heard that the admission of Catholics to seats in Parliament would be a breach of a fundamental part of the Constitution as another ; and much as he wished fur concession, and dear as the peace of Ireland was to him, he would not ask for it if accompanied by any such violation. But it was not so, and he said so not on his own, but on the highest authority, that of the Secre tary of State for the Home Department, who admitted that it concession produced such benefits, he would not resist it on any theory of the Constitution. But irconcessiou were to be relinquished, then the question lay between what would and what would not tranquillize Ireland. He was not one who thought that Emancipation would at once do go, for if he were he should be as much mistaken as if ho said it would produce no effect at all, but he was assured that a perseverance in these laws which had been tried fur so many years without tranquillizing th e country, would but add more to the difficulty of doing so. Was there, he would ask, no reason to try change when they had the nr:dn, o and would d Ireland vs timony of experienced persons of the ben e fit s i t was lik e ly u i a o to produce. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Moore) had talked of the a as have b e be believed ' that being kind, osp ta t bleand good natured, lreland was at present in possession of English capital and valuable manu factures. That was not however the case, there was not English capital there, nor ever would while matters re mained as they were. First herein by producing tranquil lity, and then, indeed, English capital would not fail to flow in. Then what was the danger to be apprehended from Catholic Gentlemen being allowed to have seats in the House, for they were already there by their Representa tives, a consequence that became necessary the moment they got the elective franchise. They were in the House, in their most noxious form ; for, begging the pardon of some Hon. Gentlemen at the other side of the House, their Representatives were but unreasoning passive in struments, and were required not only to be active and vigilant, but even violent. As to the last election he would not say a word more than to observe that no thing had taken place which was not to be expected, be cause such conduct was natural so long as the present sys tem was endeavoured to be perpetuated. - He feared, too, that if things were continued in the same way, that the next would be full as dangerous, as the probability was, that the Irish, rushing blindly on, might find persons .to represent them without any reference either to rank, re spectability, or talent; and it was to be feared that this would be the cause of displacing some valuable Members, for no other blemish in the eyes of the Catholics than their giving their votes against them front sincere conviction. He assured the Ikuse, that when he rose, he had no con ception that he should have trespassed so long on their at-. tention, but he hoped he had done it with moderation, and also earnestly desired that there should not he any recourse had to irritating topics ; and he therefore implored every .Member to follow the example set by the Hon. Member for Westminster. He apologised for thus detaining the Hous.- --(Hear, bear)—although he bad not fully gone into the details of the Question, but he purposely exposed himself to any charge which might he made against him on that ground, and he hoped that in any illusion he mi,6t have made to his opponents, he had rendered them a Lir mea- sure of justice. The Learned Gentleman then sat down amidst loud cheers from all sides of the Hott.e. Lord F. L. GOWER said, that although the Hon, Member fur Dublin (Mr. Moore) bad, by some glorious process of reasoning, arrived at the conclusion that this-- least imperial question ought not to be argued on the . ground of expediency, he took the liberty of differing from him, and would therefore confine himself chiefly to the ground of expediency. Before he made any observation of his own, he would refer to the words of a greater advocate (whose memory was 'respected and regretted) on the me- moreble occasion of the debate of ISI2. After assuming • that all subjects were entitled to equal rights, he next argued that it was essential to promote an identity of in-. terests and of feelings in all, as members of the same com munity. Entirely assenting, as be did, to the truth of these arguments, be (Lord F. L. Gower) doubted the universa lity of the application ; for if a distinction were taken between good and bad government—that is, between one that was arbitrary and our own--in the one that might not be beneficial, while in the latter it would be extremely so. As Austria had been spoken of, he would give it as an instance, and one which bad many of the faults which we desp i se. There the bond of connexion was different, and as one well acquainted with that Government had said, the Hungarian despised the inhabitant of Vienna; the Gali cian both ; and the Tyrolese had views 6111in:era from either; yet diet was the way in which all the dominions of that monarch were bound together—fur the connection was kept up by the Hungarian being quartered at Milan, while the Italian regiments were dispersed over the fertile plains of Hungary. Far from him would it be to do so ire these countries, for it was a fact that in this country, where all possessed equal rights, that equality of rights produced an equal interest for the safeguard and glory of the coun try, and enabled it to direct its undivided energies wherever there was a necessity for their exercise. If, bow divide energies,rtelicsoisnegthe power an od f p o o u s r i a n g g e g s dissent u i s o t n e s s , an a " s 'ao a s tth q le u 'ra a l lificatien for the eve r, there was any principle which could, snore then possession of political power. It - was very easy for persons to lay the flattering unction tca their souls, and say that one class of the community eoela make excellent laws - for the other, and that both were flourishing under them, but that assumption war, in point of fact, false. Besides, the next question was, where wore you to get a receipt for making the Catholics believe it was true. He had often heard that the evils of Ireland were theoretical, and he himself thought that they were not entirely derivable from Catholic disabilities, and examples might be drawn from our triumphs in war, and our pros perity otherwise, to support this argument; but he would in answer say, that it was no doubt true that the Treasury had been filled from the coffers of Ca tholics, and that the blood of the Catholics had watered the fields of Europe, in achieving our triumphs, aa. freely as the blood from Protestant or Unitarian veins. There was another subject also, to which he would refer, and on which - much misrepresentation prevailed throughout England, which was, that when rebellion raised that lie dismissed his unabashed front in Ireland, it proceeded from the Pres byterians of Ulster, and it was the Protestant Wolfe Tone, who, in answer to the desire of the French 111inister that: the body of the people and those who influenced them Would any 0 0 should be engaged, said that he did not vrish the Catholic Priesthood to be at all sought after, for tluT w er e the na itiulrtailie n enemies ouse ot then e t n h the French ay to the e ll c e Revolution. y l• them from their Bar, and that a s they la fought for l. country' he would continues preservation, and that of the s to withhold from them their rights, so help him God." --(Loud cheers.)—He had not jumped to the conclusion, that the balance of danger wag in favour of continuing the at, On et cry state of things, a nd co 'der tion of present , 3 ‘Y - ns a be eranteu. If it • expediency, it ought to to treat with disrespect the petition on the table, be ceulsi only say that l ee never refused his attention to any Iriele • a nd if any one of that elurged " - proprietor, against• ass a e gumeree on this subject, awe • his views, he would only yield tr. their reason, but not to their eloquence, or their feet., I f h e asked, such a person why he differed Irma the large le might of the talent of Ireland an this subject, l a might be answered that the Church would not last an hour, nor the Union a ti3Vl ° tll lU ol t it r," l and that the times of Charles I. would come over again.— see, however, could never know the process by which these things could occur by the admission of a few Catholic gen tlemen, and it was the opinion of a distinguished advocate of those claims, now in the House of Lords, that if the whole number of Is isle Members were persons inclined with the worst principles of Jesuitical policy, there could be no fear of them when weighed against the talent and the worth of this country. The Noble Lord went on to say, that although he did not avow such a total antipathy to the Catholie doctrines as the Member for Newport, yet that he did not like either them or the Con stitution of the:r Clcucele and that he ehouelit all the de clarations, parchments, and statues, faded into nothing as securities, when compared wit' that little engine— the Printing Press.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—iie did rot be lieve that any evil doctrine could stand the test of thet mac hine, and though they might talk of the violence of the Presbyterians, the craft of Cromwell, and the more legiti mate patriotism of the Someesete and Res!ellseeall faded 1 I