The Sun. — London, England, 1816-05-14 00:00:00

PE RI A PA Et LI AM E NT. 1101 SE OF LORDS, Aloynet, MAY 13. The Bishop of Oxvoub (Dr. LEGGE) %%WI in , troikeeil by the 1.14h0p of GLOUCESTIIII and an other Ili*hop. Alcock, front the Treasnry. presented the Estimates. &C. moved for by the Marquis of Lansdowne. Morris, from the Mint. imesurPed an Account of Coins mot rd for by Lord Lauderdale ; and Mr. ease. from the Book, presented Aocounts also movert for by tprd Lauder . - stale ; and a person from the Exchequer presented Accounts, all of which were lend on the tithle. The Wrought Goods Bill and German Prunes Bill were read a third time, and passed. The Irkh Supply Bill and Exchequer Pleas Office Bill, were read a secor,d time. E , trl STA NI-10PE postponed the conference with the Com mons on the ,uliject of. the Statute-book till Tivaday next. The Earl'of Nlfjf.„GttAtrE presented a Petition from certain Growers of Flax praying retieL, Laid on the table: IRISH TITHES% Lord KINGSTON moved the second reading of • the Irish Tithes HAL The object of the Bill was to remedy inconvenience which was complain . . of in Ireland, and which arose, from the sen tenees of ,the EccloliastiNl Courts aping per-. sorts Nho, in . numbers of tout or five, gave no tice on the saute day to the clergyman to take his tithes. This had been considered as a fraud nil the eler;qinatt, by rendering it impossible for him up his tithes at ail ; and an Act had been pissed making it a nii-4derneanotir for four or five persons to give such it notice with' such inten ders. lint it might and die; ot . ten happen in Ire that four or five persons gave notice to the clergyman to take his _tithes on the same day, without any intention_ to defraud the clergyman, and without any thing like a t oujiiracy ; atul yet . the Irish Ecclesiastical Courts ished this as a misdemeanour under the Act ; and the object of this• Bill was to explain and amend that Act. The Lotto Cumwauma could not assent to the second reading of the Rill, which Was altogether unnecessary. It was impossible that any Court could put such a construction on the former act as to punish persons gitimug 'notice in the manner stated by the Noble 'Lord, without any circum stances of conspiracy ; .and if the ecclesiastical courts were to take upon themselves to entertain jOrisdiction as to mi , demeanourit, the mode was to apply for isirrOhibbion. '.. The ;Marquis of LANSDOWNE% expressed his.satis faction at the Noble and Learned Lord's deciaits tiou that such sentences were illegal ;• butlie bad b e ,, r 4 o f such proceedings having beeu carried on. Thereqi.t• least existed grounds for ineltdry The Archbishop of Casino. 'said, dill! he had ineyt:e. , heard of such seriteuces. and believed that the Nooks Lord had been misled. Lord Ilenl , snitee never heard of them while he was in frelatid and from the knowledge 'he list of flue Judges, he thought it extremely nullkely tba they shohld ever have so completely mistaken tic ; but from the untiring of several parishes, and other, causes, it oftsei irippenedlltat the der gYman was utterly urn shlt yd collecut the whole of 11i:4i:tiles. A clergyman had complained to him of rite hardship under which he laboured in' this .respt:et : Iris patisb was very extenaive,, formed of eletten parishes noited,• and about 40 0 - oeilipiers givm'p hieir notice to take his on Ike 'fame day. This was impopsibk, and nearly 400 actions hut! been commenced against him for trot duitil it. , The 'Marquis of BUCKINGHAM said, that every word that had bueu Said on the one side and the other shewed the necessity of inquiring into the state-of Ireland, , Here tyecific grievances were alleged ; - Red he wished to know whether Minis ters would support a :notion fur art inquiry into these grievaileClS Loran StAVIOUTH said, that if,'a proper ground were laid, they would sepport-it. Marquis:of DOWNSIiiit& urged the neoes sity of inquiry. Lord I.lol.l.srip said, that however high the le gal authority of the Noble and Learned Lord might he, this was an evil that required to be remedied by act of parlianient. Steil thing proved the nere;iiiiy 'for that inquiry which a Ma jority of their Lortlshipi had negatived. Lori{ Kolo6l'ol+l was satisfied for the present with the Noble and Learned' Lord's declaration as to the law, and agreed •to withdraw his Bill. He gate notice, however, that be would next Session move for en inquiry into the subject of Tidies in heland.---The Bill was accordingly withdrawn. His Lordship then moved the postponement of tic second leading of his Flax Bill, which was orderedd SHOPLIFTING. Lord HoLLANn gave .notice, that he would on kiiday !nom the second reading of the Shoplift ing Bill. Earl STANHOPE said, that ,it trenched on' the Trial by Jury, and proposed that the Lords be tammoned for Friday, which was. ordered. INTFAIFERENCE OF THE MILITARY. !The Earl of glum said, it was with great pain : .lie felt it necessary again to trouble th e tiouse NVith regard to th e improper interference of the ^Military. A circumstance, however, had again happened to him, which rendered it a public duty on his pm to bring the subject before their Lord bliips. This (ray, on his attempting to enter Pall- Mall, be was stopped by the soldiery, Who insist ed that he should not go along that street ; and on his calling for a constable; be was informed by theta there werono constables there, lie inquired for the Officer of the Guard, and was told he was Carlton-House. He did not attempt after this to proceed up fall-Mall, but went along the Hay mat liet and other streets. He was not at the time aware of an m m y circustanee that could in the slightest degree call for any military parade ; he lied since learned that the Lord Mayor and Cor poration of London went up with an Address ; but was this an occasion that could call for a display of troopv, the blocking up of streets, and the in terruption of peaceable citizens on the King's highway ? He felt it to be impossible for him to pass over this second instance of military interfer ence tv:thout subordioation to the Gird Power ;, aod.he therefore moved for a Copy of the Order wider w which the Military were authorized to act this day in 1 4 all-Mall anti its vicinity. LortiNiscomit - Stnmour,n trusted tike house nuin not, under the citctulistitudts of the case, consider this motion necessary. Ile had, on'a former - occasion, when this subject was before the [louse, stated that he would take care when ever the military were called nut for the purposes of state/ or .public convenience, the civil officers should he alsts stationed. had given directions to this efluttno the civil power, and uporta recent occasinnhe had sent for the Chief Magistrate of Westminster, and given him positive directions to have IC eivil force -in,attendanee,,,and it the same time told him to consider them as directions ap plicable to all occasions'on which .the military - were called out' for -purposes of state or public con venience. The only circumstance wantitte, was a regular "cornmunical too to the office of the -."ecre tat y of State, ofilie occasions on which the mili• tars- tvere. so called out. There was a defective communication .uptid this subject, hot as. that mieht.easily he remedied, .and , as in cases where the military were called out for these, purposes, he would, as Secretary of state, take care that there should he a civil force stationed, be saw no ne cessity for the motion. Earl FITZISII.I.IAIit contended, that what bad been advanced by' the Noble Secret aryot State went directly in favour of the motion, .it appearing. clearly Irma what the Noble Viscount bad stated, that he-did not know of the military being called out this day; and as therefore they were not called out nods r the sanction of any recognized and responsi ble civil authority, it beersone the more incumbent lip n the I-louse to call for the authority, be that tnnirloitY what it , might , under which the troops had been so callod out. He was the more ,jealous upon this point, because there appeared a repetition of the attempt to set tin the military power above the civil power, in violation of the first princi• pies of the Constitution. His Lordship instanced a'ease at York in Aug. 1814, where, on the toren , mon of Mr. Sadler, the terontort, - soldieri had made their appearance to keep the ground, and, as it was afterwards discovered, withoot any authority derived from the civil power it was this nut of the military upon every trifling oet.ssiort, • without that subordination to the civil power, under which alone they ought to be called that rendered it an imperative do , v on the part of that House to interfere, partirolarly when. they found that the pledge :Ave,' he the Noble ViscOnnt, that upon the occasions-when the 'military were called out they should be placed under the eon. iron, of the civil pourer, had not been redeemed. Lord 'Viscount SIDMOtITtI , he perteetly Agreed, that where for the preservation or recd. r a tio n o f th e peace-it wa necessary to call nut the military, it yogis , only to he alone in.sishor diaatioo to the civil power. There cold(' he no loofa upon this poiiit, hut it "did n ot apply to eases where the militarY %vete merely called Out for pnrpirses of state or public convenienee. that: he had stated upon this head was, that he would take care that civil officers should he sta tioned -where the military were stationed,' anditi effect thiw.br had bean most anxious in giving di rritions, lie must say, howeser, that u pon the orrasinns'ttt State or public eons enienee on which the military Were Salted nut,, they, heb tved in an exemplary rmmer, so far as be could learn, td every The Earl hf Esatti admitted, that _upon the present orraion he received no insult or violence frolt the' soldiers, and that they were of coutse bound to obey 'the orders of their Officer. , ;''''' ' The Marquis of llncattsd}tsse. whilst he gave credit to the Noble Viscount OR the other side for his conitiNtional ophsions, Conld not by any means agree that he had redeemed his pledge: On . the contrary, not only bad the interruption by military interference been repeated, but it appeared ftat there was a power greater than that of ''the Noble Secretary of State, which had ordered..out these troops without his knowledge or participa tion, Anil by which, in . - - defiance of law, peaceable citizens proceeding in -their, lawful avocations on the King's highway were stopped, and compelled to iloto the sigh' ortlt left at the pleasure ot a soldier. It was high time that that House should interfere when they witnessed the continuance of these pro ceedings, when they saw that a power was set . up above the law, by which, in defiance of the law, peaceable citizens were interrupted by soldiers, acting not only withone any orders :from the civil power, but withont any connection, With any re- Cognized civil authority.. This had been dearly' proved by the speech of the Noble Viscount, and that speeds was one of the most forcible argu ments for the motion of his Noble Friend. 'Let their Lordships ascertain, as it was their consti tutional duty to do, who it was, be 'his rank in the State what it might, that had thus ()Nerd(' nut a tnilitary force- to stop and interrupt peace..! - able citizens in their progress through the streets,' without any legal or recognized authority, in de fiance of gory, and in violation of the Constitution., The Earl of bsuozaDaLe expressed his deep regret at what had fallen from the Noble Secre tary of State. He had understood the Noble Vis count, upon a former occasion, to have given a pledge that the military should never be called nut, except in subordination to the Civil Power, be now found that the pledge of the Noble Vis cotiot merely amounted to this, that on these oc ensions, as they were called, of state and public convenience, civil officers sho u ld b e i n attendance, but in subjection, as it were, to the military. He could not hut consider this as a departure from the first and hest principles of the Constitution ; it assimilated this country to the arbitrary On veinments on the Continent, where precisely the same reasons would be assigned for the use of the military upon public occasions as the Noble Vis count had urged for their employment here. He could not, without alarm, observe the increasing prevalence of such a practice, and he trusted their Lordships, by agreeing to the motion of 'his Noble friend, *wad take a first step to interfere for the purpose of putting en end to a system so abhorrent to the Constitution of this free country. Lord Viscount St DNICWTH again drew a distinc tion between employing the military in subordi nation to the civil power, for the preservation or restoration of the public Peace, and the employ ment of them for purposes of state tlnd public convenience, where it was for general conve nient* that those whose duty led them to the Court should not be interrupted in their progress thither; and were it not for the military upon such occasions, the public in general would be in . conv'enienca in a much iteater (leirce. bad also been the constant usage that the military shmild lie so employed. Earl Sy/iNIIOpB wished to ask whether the No ble Secretary of Stote was informed that the mi litary.would be called.out this day ? The - Marquis' or LANSDOWNK contended, OA, this repetition of• unauthorized military inter ference-imperatively .callea upon_ their Lordships to take some steps, to prevent such a violation of the Constitution ; and as a first step, they ought to be Wormed by whose authority,these orders had been given. It clearly appeared, that it was not by the authority of the Noble Secretary of State; who was the head of the civil power, and the police ;. on the contrary, that it was by some authority that would not ton &seen(' to communicate its intentions to the Noble Secretary of State. And this was called a defective communication—this was to be the apo logy for 149eking....tip streets and interrupting peaceable citizens in their avocations. Let then lie authority be communicateil.to the'llouse from which these orders had emanated. The Noble Secretary of State had given a pledge on a former occasion, which, it was evident, hehatt-made ef forts to redeem, but had been unable ;.it power greater Wan his - Ii id interposed, and set him at - defiance. Let then this secret power be unfolded 40 the Uti l is e , that their Lordships might be en.- - abled etlectuAly to interpose to prevent these con tinued violations of the Constitution. Earl STANHopg declared his opinion, that if a soldier, tinder the circumstances - butted, had killed the coachman, or any other servant of his Noble •Friend (Lord Esseit), the soldier acting antler or det s which we re illegal, wouhl have been. gnat)? of murder, and those who issued the orders, as tic tessaries before the fact, wiudd have been guilty , o 1 murder, •.• • The Earl of I - Isnaowny deprecated the warmth w. ich had been manifested; au l which lie did nut think was called fur by the occasion. The calling out the mi:;tary for the, purposes of , tiate had been mt. practice as far back• as Memory could mach,, 4111 it was tur the public .convenience that they should be einp;oyed. It was not a question of law , a conStiihie With his staff, in stopping an individn..i on the King's highway, would be act ing as as 8 soldier with his sword, only that the Appearance of ,t he latter might cause more irritation. It was not a•ltietation as to the lega lily of the thing, - butt a question of custom and usage. He recollected that, on the trial of .111 r. Hastings, ',the military wOe*stationed in 'the aye hues to the High 'Court of Parliament, and yet no objection, he belieVed, was evermade,to it in either Hone of -Parliament. This then was,st. I proof of the usage', tpou„'.owtsions of state, for I public conveni.enee4 . -. and it would be found that f the convenience .of Are public. was muchbetter consulted upon'oeeositins ollhis nature, by hay ing the military stotitingthflian by their 7not :being . present. He, eadd ,:ieeiAliejeture, nu necessity fur the motion. • ' ". • Lord Hot,t,atip strongly,nrgett the necessity for agreeing to the motion, in order that the powir flaw ,+ kith the orders for the employment of the htilitary Upoti this occasion had errianated, should IN fully before House. The Noble Secretary ot Stat e' had, uttered veryeOnstitotional doctrines, taut when it tame to' the test, he was unable to tedeeti3;oe - pledge which Ist: had given : . the mili tary were called ottt, - in : defiance ot• his authority, and bit(speech, with Wiese adMissions, formed the strongest argument for the motion of his Noble .Frieno- (Lord ftls.tex.) As. to the. military being called our for , pnrposes of state, or parade, if they Were merely to be 'paraded witlioat. inter. rupting [mo l dy, of course there could be no 0b... jection. He (Lord Holland) might think it a had taste, And. that it was, in truth, the worst possible taste the 14avernment of a free ctiuntry,..to make a parade of a military force, but conststotionally there could be now . objection. Then came the ground of p u bli c Conveoieoce, and, either 'public. convenience meant nothing, or it 'meant to preserve theliettee t and that; there was. in this case a military forceeiilled out to. preserve the peace, without any snhordination to or con troul of the civil' power. What was 'the ticcasion too of calling out this Military force ? The Lbrd.Alnyor and Corporation of Loudon came to present an Address. He had certainly a high re spect for the Corporation .of Loudon, and tor the very worthy individual' who ti'{iS now Lord Mayor; but what is as the fact ? The Lord Mayor passes through all the crowded and narrow streets of the city without any soldiers to protect him, and with-, out any inconvenience : and nt length, .when he conies to Pall. Mall, it was to be supposed that such a - crowd would flock to look at him, , that a body of soldiers were necessary to keep them off. The whole of this, it must be evident, proceeded upon a:gross absurdity. No reason whatever had, been assigned for not agreeing to the motion of his Noble Friend ; and he could net think their Lord ships would do their duty, if they did not require information as to: the power front which orders had issued :to employ a military force in defiance of the law of the land. As to Hastings's trial,tso far from no complaint being made, the fact was, that the then Lord King complained in the House of the interference 4'filsoutilitary, and some steps were taken in contaquence to obviate the ob jection__ The Duke of Sostotx contended, that it appear ing the military were called out without the au. thority of the Noble Secretary of State, who was the legitimate .organ of authority for such pur, poses, the house ought,to be informed by what authority the orders, were issited, and he there fore supported the motion. EarIiSTANHOPE quoted from the Journals of the House the proceedings regarding Hastings's trial, from which it appeared that it, was in consequence of an Address of the House'to his Majesty to sta tion the military in the avenues to the High Court of Parliament, as had been usual in similarcases, that the . militu'ry were upon th at occasion em . ployed Lnrd Viscount SIDIVIM/TET ridicttle4 the idea of what was illegal in itself (as contended nu the other side), being, rendered legal by an Address of that Millie, and maintained that the usage was what was referred to. nOril FIOLGAND strongly urged 'Abe...fallacy of the argument of the Noble St-retary of State, the fact being- well. itootin. tliat the military were only employed upon the occasion alimicti to, ii I I 2 subordination to the civil power, and cbristitu• tionally employed at the instance and under the discretion of a recognized authority. In this case there was no recognized authorityi and no efforts should be wanting to get at the authority front which the orders emanated. . ;~ Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH again contended, that if the employment of the military was illegal, the address of the House could not render it legal. The Marquis of LANSDOWNS said, neither his Noble Friends nor himself had ever contended that the 'employment of • the military was Illegal, but. merely that it ssas so when. they were not called out to assist and in subordination to the civil power. By what authority had the troops upon this occasion been called out ? The Noble Viscount had spoken six times, but had never given a direct answer to the question whether there Was any civil authority. He (the Marquis of .Lani. downe) now asked him for the last time, whether. the orders for calling out the military this day had been issued from the office of the Noble SecretAry of State, or front any civil officer I---No atISIVer was given. The House- divided on the motion — Contents 16 Non-Contents . Majority against the Motion —l7 While the strangers were excluded, 'we undeti... itand, the Marquis of BUCKINGHAM postponed hir intended motion for an Address to the Prince Re{ gent on the subject till Friday. One or two Petitions were then presented , anti the Bills upon the.table 14n-or - fled, After wilits4 an adjournment (till to- morrow) took place. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Sir S. RoMILLY postponed his motion respect. ing the Protestants in the south of France to Thursday se'nnight. Mr. Maherley took the paths and his Rye, and General Mitchel for Antrim. On the motion of Lo r d LASCELLES, the Agri culturßi ComnOtee was postponed on acc" nt 01 the indisposition of Mr. W es te rn . The county rate and the hi g hway surveyors Bills went through the C omm ittee : itlo" " Priday. sea t for HUSH ROMAN CATHOLICS, Mr. GRATTAN observed, that be had a Petition to present from the Roman Of 1 1.6111 ' which he intended t o p resent on Wednesd ay.its should not immediately make any motion oil this important. subject, but.only move, that the Peri" Lion should.lie on the table. He should on ait turc opportunity inform the House in due time or any indttritt. — Hc — tvished that in the course of the session this question, under all its circuits.. stances, should be very amply discussed, but on what particular motion he had not as yet ete".. mined. Ordered to lie on the table. The Hon. Mr. listimert , made Several rework° en the state of the. Petworth•House of Corte", lion, which, he said, was merely co ll e ction or . solitary cells, wherein'individuals passed ilar sod nights in a dreary state without occupation. tie mentioned the cue of a woman confined for three ' years, not baying been able . to find bail, N od Wall at last removed to a mad.hoose. He mOved el return of persons confined in the Petworth House. at Correction, distinguishing eseh ease. Mr. Minim. explained the circumstances Sf this person's confinement, who was unable to procure sufficient securities. lie believed she , was deranged, as she had attempted to set fire to a person's house, and committed other outraga. As to thfi cells alluded to, they were owipg-to the construction of the place, which had no commas room of meeting. The return was ordered ' also accounts of per 4 eons confined th ere for th e last three years. The Report of the committee or Supply for Jrc• land was received, and the Resolutions agreed to. SOAP DUTY. Lord STANLEY observed that this Bill was al ready advanced to a late stage of proceedings, and that he had not dttended to it particularly; but thatlie bad been that day applied to by a con• stitttent on that subject. Those interested in tit* manufacture bad of yve had time to consider and, understand this measure properly; besides the - 1301 had not yet been printed. He hoped the thir4 reading woithl dot be pressed for Friday, but that 'more time would be‘given to the manufacturers to state their case to the House. The persons on whose represeniation he applied were concerned in the making of the hr.rd, and not of the soft soap ; and by the proposed duty they apprehended that they were to bear all the hOrden, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no objection to postpone the-report till to-morrow. Lord •STANLiIIf thOlight so short a delay no advantage. Mr. PROTHEROE called the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to,a clause in the Bill which made it operate from the Ist of May, in stead of the date of the passing of the Act. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day, with the view of discharging it, and postponing it till to-morrow. Mr, METHCEN objected to the disgraceful rag' ;ice of smuggling Bilis through the House. The Custicat.t.ozi of the EXCREQURR EXpIaiREA the circnn►stanccs attending the progress of tbe Bill, and remarked on the misrepresentatiQhe which had gone abroad on the subject: General GASCOVNE 'asked whether the day Or the commencement of the Tax was to be altered, and whether stock its hand was to be liable to the increased duty ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXattetavatt had objection .to the alteration of the tine for the commencement of the operation of the Bill. Mr. L'LNLAY said, that it was in fact the trans" ference of a tax, and wished the Bill recommitted fur a fortnight. A further conversation ensued, and ultimatelf the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not object to a delay .till Monday, with the understanding - that alt- parties considered that as a full notice. : be hoped then that many objections might be re• moved. The report was ordered for Monday. EDUCATION. Mr. BaououAM give notice of a Motion lot . Friday for a Committee to enquire into the State of the Education of the Lower Classes in the „dt:A tropol IS INTERFERENCE OF THE MILITARY. Lord IthvroN did not expect, after the explato nations which he hatisectived au a *fug sPiol.'s