The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-17 00:00:00

PARLI MEN T. HOUSE OF LoItDS, DEC. 16. The Earl of BUCKINGHANISHLgE took the oaths and his seat. The Cotton Mapufacrories Regulation Bill was brought up from the Commons by Sir ROBERT PEEL and o►liers, and read the first ►ime. The Malt and - Pension Duties Bill was read the thir►i time and passed. SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL. Viscount SIDMOUTH moved the Order of the Day for thf,lecond reading of this Bill, which was accordingly read the second titne. lbe Noble Secretary of State then moved, that the Bill be committed for to-morrow, and the Lords summoned thereurm.—adered. After which an adjournment took place. HOUSE OF COMMONS. NEWSPAPER. STANIP DUTIES BILL. At ten minutes past tour o'clork, Mr. LUSH - INGToN moved the Order ot the Day for going into a Committee on the Newspaper Stamp Duties Bill.—Ordered. Mi. LUSHINGTON then moved, that the . Speaker do leave the Chair, which was 31S0,agreed to. The House theu went into a Cotnrnirtee and resumed, the Report was brought up, read, and ordered to be taken.iuto further consideration to morrow, and the Bill to be printed. STUEGes BOURNE stated, that in conse quence of the noise which ptevailed yesterday in the House, his answer to the question put to him had been misunderstood. lie therefore should repeat, that it was not his intention to propose that the Committee on die Poor LAWS be re appointed. IRON COTFINC. Mr. G. LAMB had to pvvseot a petition of an unusual nature. It seas that of a person who found himself incapable of paying the tires of interment to his wife, in consequence of her being enclosed in an iron coffin. The petitioner began by assur ing tke House, that he had employed an iron ea fin in compliance with the positive desire of his wife, who was apprebett‘ice that her' remaiws tnight he taken up by iesurrevion-men, and had besought him to stiffer them to be enclustl in the m.tnner they now were. lie had made three dif ferent attempts to procure interment at the Parish Chute!' of St. Andrew, Holborn, anti the coffin had at last beets taken to the church-yard, and by order of the Minister and the Church-wardens lett for three days on the steps of al h ite Csjcis lie was aware Ire ought to apply to the blouse ugly in case other means of procuring redress bad failed ; he therefore stated that he had first made an application to the Bishop, who had veinied to interfere, and li.td referred him to the Ecclesiastical Court. That Court, on npplicatiou bring made, had issued a summons to the Rector to appear before them. To (his the Rector had replied that i►e was ready to perform the rites of interment, hot that the burying ground having been purchased by the Church. wardens, o as . itot under his control, but 'entirely under theirs, so that he could not proceed with out their leave. The Rector had died during the course of these transactions, and an application I►ad tob , equently been made to the Court of King's Bench, hctore which I the new Rector had refused to appear. As the whole power of that Court to punish such a refusal did not extend beyond sits. pending the Rector for three mouths, the petitioner had no means of redress left hint, but an appeal to the House. The ground on which the resolution of not admitting iron coffins had been taken was their greater durability. lie (Mr. Lamb) should not en►er into that question, but such a principle ought not to be allowed to prevent the fulfilment of those rites to our departed relatives and friends, which were deemed sacred amongst all nations. If the church-yards of the metropolis were so full that they were no longer able to contain the dead Without the aid of resurrection-men, or the dig ging up and irreverend scattering of decayed bones and coffins, the subject was woolly to attract the attention of the Legislature, and tueaus ought to he taken to prevent the evil. He did not mean to found any measure on the present petition, be cause he hoped that the expression of tie sense of the House would be sufficient to make the Churchwardens recall the unciviliied resolution , which they had taken. But if some alteration did not take place in the conduct of such officers, he should probably think it his duty to submit some measure to the House upon the subject, the na ture of which he was not yet prepared to ex plain. He then moved, that the petition be brought op. Dr. PEIILLIMORE contended that the perit•ioner would have had no difficulty in obtAirring redress, if he had applied to the Ecclesiastical Court or the Court of King's Bench. Mr. G. LAMA repeated, that applications had been made to both those Courts, and the gionnds On which they had failed. The petition was then brnnght up and read. It was troni John Gilbert, of LAystall-street, in the par ish of St. Andrew, and stated the facts which we have described. Oil the question that the petition lie on the table, 111 r. HALroxio'svas understood to say, that the real Ttestion was one between the Patentee for Iron Coffins, and all the Church w3ritns itt London. Mr. BENNET considered the subject in a very serious light ; and thought that its discussion would probably lead to the adoption of some mea sures that we much wanted. There existed a system for taking up persons out of church-yards for the purpose of dissection, the particulars of which liptl been laid before him as Chairman of the Police Committee. Lie had not put then. forth, because he felt that they would have creat ed the utmost alarm through the whole country. But be was aware that some measure had becon..e oecessaty to repress a practice so repugnant to all the feelings of nature. After afew words from Mr. G. Lomb, Mr. Vtiviine, and 1)r. Phillimore, the petition was or detect to lie on the table and to he printed. DUTIES ON WINES. Sir C. MONCK %i . as understood to state, that it had been strong:v ritilloured that 9 !light lion. Gentleman oe,po,ite (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) intruded to propose an eqoalization of ditties on certain Wi-es, tvWch would probably effect a great reduction in the consitetiption of l'oituguese Wines. The Merchants dealing in PortUttette Wines -were, therefore, very desirous of having I lie earliest information possible respect int; any deep Mination I 0 which the Right Hon. Gentleman tni4ht-conte on that point. The CHANCELLOR of the ExCHMUEIt s as far as he todd he heard in the Gallery, stated that he Will not preptred to give an anNwer to giteVions of, that kind but that there was no danger of any sodden reduction of dillies, as such a Mea sure could not he adopted without previous nego ciations with other Powers. ELECTIONS' IN 111.F,LAND. Mr. WYNNE obtained Irate to bring in a Bill TO Acurtid the 42d of his Majesty, relative to Dec- . lions in Ireland. The Bill wed then brought in, read a first and second time, and ordered-to lie committed to-morrow, and to be printed. TR ItisFER OF THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE. . .... Joust Russat.t. was desirous of saying nothing which should tend to provoke discussion. tie should, therefore, content himself with mov ing for leave to bring in a Bill to exclude the Bo rougl► of Grampound from sending two Burgesses to Parliament, and to enable the Borough of Leeds to send two Burgesses in lira thereof. Lord CASTLEREAGH supposed that the intention of the Noble Lord was at present merely.to bring in the 80, and move that it be printed, and that Ise would give sufficient time fur the House to take the ►ubject into considetation. Lord J. RussELL stated, that the NOble Lord had rightly interpreted his meaning, and that he should not press the second reading of the Bill till atter the holidays. _ _ Mr. R. MAECTIN had radical objections to the bill—(Laughter)--with which he should not now Rouble (he House at any length. He hoped Ho nourable Members would pause gravely before they gave thpir assent to disfranchising ally of . those Boroughs; for be was convinced that the House would thus.be driven, step by step, to that Retottn, at the thought of which every thinking man most shudder—He should not oppose the Winging in of the MI, but should resist it in every miser stare. Leave %:vas then given to Icing in the Bill. PETITIONS. Mr. littocGHAM Prestwetla Petition from T. Brent fold, of Middleton, in the County of L 4 n ens ter, rowvidining that during floe charge made by the Yeomanry at Manchester, on the )611i of August, be bad been driven into an enclosed place, where all exit was prevented by several logs of timber, and that when in that situation, a Yeoman of the 113 tile of Alexander Oliver had vrock him with his separated his shoultier hone, and penetrated deep into his hack. He had no Other means of plitaining redress than by an application to the House, :he local Magistrates having refused to take information against the offemier.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed._ Mr. LAMBTON presented a petition from Thomas Lockhart, also complaining of in series ittflicied by the military on the 16th August.— Laid on the table, and ordered to he printed. Mr. LAStaToti p seeing a. Noble Lord in his place, wished to infotrn him, in consequence of what that Noble Lord bad stated some days since, that his (Mr. L.'s) agent had discharged several of his workmen for being Radicals, he (Mr. L.) had written to bis agent, and bad received from him a letter which, with the pertnissiOrt of the House, he would now read.—[Fie then read to the following effect :—" 1 can positively assure you that no person of that description (Radicals) has been discharged front your works. The men were never more i►eaceably disposed than they are at present, nor more inclined to work, as is evi dent from their having effected that , which could not have been done - without the greatest exer tions on their part.l—(llear, hear !) A Message from the Peers informed the Howie, that their Lordships had agreed to the Malt Ditty Bill, and other Bills, without any amend ments. Sir ROBERT WILSON presented a petition from Thomas Btu low, complaining of personal in. jury inflicted on him by the Yeomanry at Man ehester.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. OLDHAM INQUEST. Sir F. Boa DRTT said, tbilt he had a petition to present relative to the Coronet's► Inquest at Oldham from Robert Lee, but he was ►enable to state whe ther be was father or brother to the young man upon whose body the inquest had been holden The petition was then brought op and read. It recapitulated all the proceedings and adjournments of the inquest, the application tna►le ' k b the Court of King's Bench for a mandamus to compel Mr. Ferranti to go on with the inquest, and the manner in which this Gentleman had availed himself of the (federal ion of the Court, that he had acted illegally to dismiss tbe Jury. It then prayed lot such redress as tits Hou►e should think fit to allow, On the motion that the petition lie on the table, Alt. V. BLAKE said, that it was most certainly true, as stilted by the Hon. and Lea rned Gentle man ( Ir. Brougham) who presented the hist of the present seties of petitions, that it wet s the duty of esery lion. Member to present such peti tions, even though the statements contained in ',hen, should he erroneous or unfounded ; but Con sidering the number of those petitions which were now presented, it was material to point the at tention of the House to the fact, that upon the face of these petitions it appeared, that the grievance must complained of was unfounded; that grievance, as alleged, was, that thee petition ers were unable to obtain redress, although) they applied to the Magistracy. Now it was plain that the facts alleged amounted to a complaint against the conduct of the Magistracy, and the petitiopers were not warranted in the as.4erfion that they had endeavoured to obtain r e d iess , and were unable to do so. It appeared, indeed, that thee pet itiouers, as they ;alleged, lead preferred com plaints against the Magistisey ; but to n hoot were those complaints addressed ? Why, to the Ma gistates thene,t Ives they o h course re f use d to admit that they were wrung, awl to punish them selves. But did it appear that the petitioners had preferred any complaint to the proper tribunal ? Did it appear that ,they had applied to the Court of King'S Bench for a► criminal intormation ? On the contrary, it appeared they had not done so, and consequently it must follow that the state ment was unfounded, When they 'alleged their in competency to obtain redress.- For how could they obtain redress if they would not anply for it ; and if they would not apply for it in the pro per form and place, it was because they found oc casion to inflame the public mind by applications to this House. The last petition present►d by the lion. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) contained charges acainst the Coroner, as well as against the Ma gistracy ; and it was stated in it that apnlica , ion had beet► made for a mandamus to compel the Co roner. But what was the Court required 10 tin ?- why, to compel the Coroner to renew a proceed ing, the roust illegal and unprecedented that ever was known in England-.—fl Coroner's July assum ing to themselves all the functions of a petty Jury. The Coroner was right not to renew it when he discovered his error, and the Court would have been inexcusable to permit hint to do so. The application was improper. If the complaint was founded the complainants ought to have taken another course. Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that the Hon. Gen tleman was quite mistaken in the view which he had taken of the snhject. There was nothing improper in the application which had been made to the Court of King's Bench, and, that Court would have granted the Mandamus, if the Coro ner had not efF-ctually *hewn cause against it.— He did not impute it to the Coroner that his con duct had been intentionally illegal. but the Court haring ri+tsed the Mandamus, on the ground that his proceedings had been illegal from their very origin, he bad jumped at that declaration to put an eta' to the whole Inquest. And were the House' to be cold that the people of the country were un reasonable because they were not satisfied with ‘uch a mockery of justice ?—(Bear, hear ?) When he saw such a collusion as this—for though he did not mean to say it was intended it sprenred to lie real—alien be saw a Comfier quoting his own breach of the laws in defence of hip adiournment, and using stifle the whole encoiry, he would think it a shame if the people of England were satisfied.—(hear, hear, hearl) —He did not approve of the proceedings of the Manchester Magistrates on the 16th of August. But great as was the irritation which they pro doced, it was nothing when' compared with that urea red by the conduct stibsepiently adoptetL Fie did not accuse any one, but bad it not been for that most unfortunate fatality by which :he Gram! Jury of Lancaster had found it their duty to throw out the Bills laid before them, one trial before a Judge (and not a Manchester Ma g istrate or an Oldham Coroner), and the verdict o f a L 311.- easter Jury, would have given satisfaction to the whtile country. .But it was the final adjourn ment of the Inquest that had clowned the whole, and made the breach he wren the people and constituted authorities, if tiot irremediable, at least much broader Rfld menacing than it would otherwise hart. been, The Honourable Gentleman complan2d of mis-statements in the Petition, but what rills-statements had not. been ! woe in another place which he would not name, when it had been found necessary to raise alarm ? Had it not been represented that 100,000 men, out of a population of only .150,000.itt men, wo ntcn, and children, were in orms'and in open rebel lion, and had not the troth of the statement been vouched for by Noble Persons, who had not con sidered the impossibility of the case ? " Sixteen thousand colliers are in arms, to my certain knowledge," said one of those Noble Persons ; not only 16,000, but 16,600," said another ; for they seemed to be respondere pima, and to sing to each other.—(Laughter.)—But alter all it turned out, from a statement of an Hon. Friend of his, that there were not 15,000 colliers in that district ; so that those Noble Persons had counted . more in arms than were actually above or below giound.—(Laughter.)—The colliers of his Hon. niend (Mr. Lambtou's) at least 1000 in number, must also now be put out of the question, as it was proved that they had never quitted their work, so that the whole number was reduced to 14,000. But certain Noble Persons did not . care what statements they made. They, heard them, they swallowed them greedily, and then gave them again to the public ; thus verifying the fol lowing Hudibrastic maxim : Certes, the pleasure is as great, Of being cheated as to cheat. Mr. BLAxs said, the lion. and Learned Gen tleman (Mr. Brougham) would do hint the justice to admit that be did not oppose the bringing up of the petition, because of the unfounded allega tions The SPEAKER reminded the Hon. Member, that l►e was not at liberty to do more than explain what he before said. Mr. BLAKE was perfectly aware of the impro priety 9f doing more, and was not attempting to do more. He merely wished to apprize the House of the unfounded allegations as to their proceed ing by mandamus; he did not object to its lega lity, bnt that upon the case it ought to be an ap plication for corrupt conduct in the Corm of an in formation. lqr.. R. MARTIN considered the speech of the Hun. and'Leatned Gentleman to have applied to any thing but to the subject before the House.— Ile wished to aEk the Hon. Gentleman opposite but one question :—What proceeding did they mean to found on this Petition'? • No answer being returned, the question was put, that the Petition lie on the table, wl2kh wes ordered. Sir F. BURDETT then moved that it he printed, Mr. It. MARTIN stated, that he must now offer himself to the House as the protector of the pub he revenue.--{Laughter.)---Ile litsure d th e H on . Gentlemen opposite, that the printing of those Petitions Would cost four or five tittles es much as the t.vhole salaries of the Lords 61 the Admiralty. fie should therefore oppose the printing of b ud, nonsensical stuff. The question was then pnt, and carried in they Affirtllziclye, With only one dissenting voice. ISA lINSTA PI, E. Dir. ‘Vyt:bie moved, Speaker be in- structed not to issue his writ for the eiteion Burgesses for th e B oroug h o f B arnstap l e , nota the 15th day of next February. Ordered, • Air. C. GRANT moved, that an Address be p r e ' ( seated to the Prince Reg e nt, requesting his BAP ( Highness would be pl e ased t o or d er a Coll ° E the Seventh Report of the Commissioners oil pointed to inquir e i n t o th e S a l ar i es , F ees , t!!! other Emoluments of the Clerks and other tr e fivers of the Temporal and Ecclesiastical Coo" in Ireland, to be laid before the House.—Ordered' MR. OWEN'S PLAN. Sir W. De CaESPLGNY aajd, it was with COO' siderable embarrassinent that he addressed t" Iloose, as he had hoped that some Gentlemott ° more conversant with Parliamentary diseussioo would have stepped forward to advocate the culti c of the suffering poor. The question he hAd to propose, was not one of party, but of brouanitil and it it were entertained by the House, he shotiki consider the circumstance a harbinger of heti° times. Want, and the evils atteudiug ware, 5° pressed upon the population' o!. the country, ths c a general idea prevailed that the House shoohl something to relieve the distresses of the p o or; and that the higher must condescend to invasti . gate the condition of the lower classes of the community. He had to propose to the considers * tion of the House, a nlan which would, in bi t opinion, conduce to the beneficial end they ala s/ hove in view. He was, at any rate, anxious to bring it to the proof. He knew that it avii ° called by some wild and visionary, but it 0 1 deemed more visionary by those who had coo 9 i . tiered it perhaps for half an hour, than by O. who had devoted to it 30 years of attentive con' sideration ! The power of mechanism had no' s produced such effects upon society, that, withoil extraordinary efforts_ to relieve them, a number"' individuals must perish or sutler evils worse ditto death. The circumstances of the last t hirtt years had made a change in the intern"' policy of the country absolutely 'necessary" and the question was, whether it should ( 014 , place, step by step, by season, or be brougl s ' about by prejudices and ignorance, or, perhelt through the convulsion of revolution. Under thw pt esent systetn, the unemployed poor f e d on th s labour of the industrious, communicated thl bad habits acquired in idleness to the genet) mass of the poor, amalgamated with them, an taught them their bad habits. The only r‘' reedy for this evil was the prevention of O A mischief at the root. Education was the soot' of good and evil. He had seen the effec t : of it at New Lanark. They there began a period which would not be expected : two years old. He had there seen a Pi a l. of ground, tvi,re hundreds of children, ft•P' 17 , J to seven years old, were amusing themselves ; there was among them none of those marks of ntg o i levolenee or quarrels, they were vying in acts kindness to one another. In the schools for e! ( der children, they w ere t aug h t t h e Bibl e an d thci duty to God and man. He had seen those v l / 11e had arrived at the age for labo u r, He had se t ' s them going to their labour a ft e r di nner . Sir V / 1 1 : de C. then read two letters which h e h a d receive", the first recommended the establishment alb -plan in parishes, by giving facilities to the me t ' gaging of the parish rates and to the sale of can t i mons tor • the purpose. The second letter ' 44 from the Bishop of Chester, who gave an count of an experiment he had tried on a living u ; which he had resided, by letting his glebe 1 41 1 amounting to 70 acres, in small porti on s of h! ci an acre or mote. This plan, his Lord s hip W it ; had,. kept under the Poor's-rate, a nd h a d giver'', f poor a feeling of independence and respect I° , themselves. In the present distress of the cos t ' try, it the House did not inquire into such a Pl i. sa e ,' th e y w ora ld, i n hi s o pi n i on , act i n a very 0 0 ",7 coming manner. The plan was the result of years experience of Mr. Owen, of Lanark, an d ,, Was founded on the sp a d e cu l t iv at i on . A Gen",,, man in the neighbourhood of Newcastle had pr ° _, i ed, that by this mode o f c ultiv a ti on , th e prtail‘T t had been raised to 7or 8 quart er s p e r acr e. `', 4 time time of Adam Smith the nation a l object t, to increase wealth, an object which had beets tallied by the power of mechanism to a dee d which was surprising. The great object was is s , to re-moralise the poor. He concluded with 1 0° A ing for the appointment of a Committee to intro into the Plan of R. Owen, Esq. and to exatt! l e how far the whole, or any part of it was apPl ic p , ble to the amelioration of the condition of the botsriog classes, or of the application of the 511 "" raised for the relief of the poor. 11 Lord A. HAMILTON said, that as he WA. Vt l acquainted with the county in which Mr. o° lV :a establishment was situated, and as he kn e w 0 0 0 large class of the poor i n the sam e di s t r i c t sverf a situation of great distress, he could not re°, l , to support the motion. lie would not be rol'l t o sible for the numerous theories connected ‘,ta Mr. Onren's,plan, but he knew that the prinqig) upon which the establishments of that intiPliti Intel been conducted h a d produced the best co o f Among the distressed i n h a bi tants o f t he Colc, which he represented, there was a great at e , tation of some advantage from the general ad s lion of Mr. Owen's plan. He was aware 0 1 lit t were many prejudices against this plan, ba l eD s had witnessed the most extensive, as well ss most minute benefits arising from it ; accts th i) o he would not undertake t o s a y h o w far it or practicable on a larger scale to bold societies I , ft gether by the same bond of uni o n a nd symill. lo , it was not too much, under the present stances of the country, to examine it• ' D ar were not obliged to t a ke the whole of the P a ir, but if any part of it could be taken, an lug would bebeUeficiaL littouctrArd supported the motion. --It admitted, on all hands, that rymelt distress pre` r 0 rtl. It appeared to him, that if the House sv,, to give sanction to al! d i e wild parts of Mr. Ovv i _ i e „" ( Ilan, if w ou ld d o more iojttry than service. ",e' at the same lime, the House might seer a . Ij ,!i crrse, granting an inytiry. He differed ". 1 . 1 0 Owen on many parts of his svveio , lady ai to his ides coiicerning populatioo• was a subject upoo which the grossestcallWiDo were propagated by tie mischievous part °f c !le , public press. lie believed, that the exc ess it) population was the g r e a t caus e of the which ptev.iled. He believed, i"' lce `;'bc thee.wcie radical remedies, cart ibie 41n I ii IC 1111 eP r rv c tee ler &Lc Uf bpi 11:11 ite to' bei Lit %pi( krt . ! il.i tOli I v. p v , (1 1 ,1 hit Ili e 111.