The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-13 00:00:00

141VENIN1 EDITION papers—they should not allow their indignation at that charges to cause them to give a vote which would other wise be called' for but: by good services. He would say that on the one hand a natural feeling of admiration at the exploits of the army under Lord Keane, and the reluc tance which they must all feel in that House to bring upon themselves an invidious duty , which would be pain ful to an individual, were likely to influence them, he feared, in too great a degree on the pre'tnt occasion. In a proposition of the present na ture they ought not to be governed by any feelings of that nature on the one side or the other, but by considerations of the public interest—( Hear, hear)--and of whatever that interest required. He believed that in all the greatest nations of ancient or modern times the wisest monarchs and rulers showed seine parsimony in the distribution of rewards. They knew that was the case with respect to their own Elizabeth, who was particularly . sparing in the distribution of rewards ; but the consequerfce of that par simony—that reserve in using those means of exciting emulaticn and eagerness in the public service —was, that a slight reward coming from her carried with it more real distinction than a far greater one from other rulers ; for even a simple expression of her approbation was deemed more honourable than a grant of a peerage from her im perious father. With regard to public rewards, they should only be given on very great and high occasions. There was a natural tendency on the part of Government to fall into the opposite error, so strong was the temptation to acquire popularity by conferring rewards of that nature. Why was' it that it was now proposed to grant this great reweru, the Peerage and a pension for three lives? be c mac that step had been adopted with too great facility, 2nd without that reserve which he thought it became them to exercise in propositions of that kind. Those honoues which cost the country nothing, but which, when properly distributed, produced a very good effect upon the mind of the individual, and were felt to he a very great reward—those honours which cost nothing, by being too lavishly distributed, had come to be lightly estimated.— ( Hear, hear.) Was it not a remarkable fact, that now at the end of twenty-six years of peace, when, of course, there had been no great military or naval services per formed during that time, and no great additional claims therefore acquired beyond those existing at the end of the war—was it not remarkable, he would ask, that, under these circum stances, they found the numbers of the groat Military Orders of the Bath as high, be believed higher, than they were at the conclusion of the war ?—( Hear, hear.) li e believed that if a wiser policy had been observed in that respect, if that honour had been properly husbanded and reserved for cases of distinguished services and merit, they would have had a cheap, and, at the same time, a satisfac tory mode of rewarding such services. Every consider ation, therefore, induced hint to believe that it was a wise policy not to distribute these rewards too lavishly. And if he came to apply that principle to the case which was then before the House, he was aware that it was very difficult to restrain considerations which might influence his own mind ; but he thought, looking upon the whole, he had better not attempt to do so, be cause he felt that it would be impossible to enter into that explanation without using- words which might be construed possibly, though very much against his wish, into ae inten tion to disparage and to diminish the value of the services of Lord Keane and the exploits of the army. That was is question, therefore, which after all must be left to the mind of the individual, and, when he (Lord Howick) looked at the nature of the service upon which Lord Keane was employed and at his achievements, he was bound to say that he did not think, upon the whole, that those service% were of sufficient importance to justify them in granting a pecuniary provision, not only for Lord Keane himself, but for his two immediate successors.— ( Hear, hear.) Ho thought that those services would have been justly and properly rewarded by the highest honour which could have been conferred, without calling for a provision of that kind. He thought also that the case would have scarcely justified an appeal to the liberality of the House in favour of Lord Keane himself. But he for one had the greatest possible reluctance to granting these pensions, not only in possession to the person who had per formed the services, but in reversion to those by whom he should be succeeded ; and though in each individual case the pecuniary reward, when compared with the revenue of this great country, seemed very trifling and inconsiderable, they must remember the great tendency which cases of that hind had to accumulate and run up. They granted a pension for life, which might last for a very great series of years ; hi the mean time other demands of the same kind would accumulate until at length the burden would become ex ceedingly heavy. He (Lord Howick) could not be blind no the fact that, already in the form of half-pay and pen sions, and of what was commonly called dead weight in that House, the burden upon the finance of the country was so great and so heavy, that it had compelled Parlias -Tent to postpone many grants for active service, which en thought were very urgently required. The weight of those demands upon them had bean in times past, and was still, very severely felt. In his opinion, it was the duty of the House to avoid with the greatest care the accumula tion of charges of that description. He was perfectly aware that, when he urged these arguments, he was per forming a highly invidious duty, but it was a strong sense of the duty which he owed to those who reposed confidence in him which impelled him to this course. He thought that, in watching over the pecuniary interests of the country, they ought not to be influenced by their own feel. rags of what it would be liberal, and what it would be a pleasure to them to do on behalf of brave and gallant men. They were bound to apportion the rewards which they gave --not upon those principles, but strictly according to what they believed to be necessary in order to stimulate and encourage merit in the public service in general. That was the only principle upon which, in his opinion,_ rewards of that kind should be granted. He was well aware that he was liable to this answer—that Lord Keane having been now made a Peer it would be extremely unjust and cruel to him if the House were to refuse a provision to him and his successors corre sponding to the rank which had been conferred upon him. He was not prepared to deny the force of that argument, he confessed that it was a consideration which had weighed greatly with him, and which had considerably increased the difficulty which he had felt in making up his mind to give that vote which he had determined to give in reference to that question. It also made him greatly wish that in these cases when a pension was to accompany a Peerage, the custom were different from what it was, and that in stead of granting a Peerage in the first case, and then coming down to that House to ask for a pension, the pen sion was proposed in the first instance and the Peerage were only given upon the success of that proposal. (Ilear, bear.) Ile thought that it would be a far better and a wiser and mere reasonable course of proceeding. But he was quite aware that it had not been the practice he was quite aware that a different rule had hitherto been acted upon—and therefore he did not complain of what had been done in that case. But as that rule bad not been acted upon, he was bound in this case rot to consider the hardship of refusal upon the individual in consequence of the grant of the Peerage, but to consider whether, if the whole matter were then brought before them for the first time, if the Peerage were not yet granted, he should be prepared on the merits of that case to approve of the grant of the pension rind Peerage together. That was the ground upon which he felt himself called upon to give an opinion. The Crown undoubtedly possessed the right of conferring honour according to its own discretion, and the Ministers of the Crown were responsible for the advice which they might give.—( Hear.) But if it was the clear and undoubted right of the Crown to grant these honours, it was equally the clear and undoubted right—nay, more, the incumbent duty —of that House to exercise a free and unfettered discretion, in re- ' gard to every proposition for an increase of the burdens of the people.—Hear, hear.) That being the case, though he greatly regretted the possibility that, if tile House were to adopt the ( - pinion which he had himself formed upon the subject, the honour which had been con ferred upon Lord Keane would rather be au ineunihrance than a reward—greatly as he might regret that circum stance, still he was bound to keep his judgment unbiassed by it, and to deliver his vote upon those great considerations of public policy to which he had already adverted. He would not add any futther remarks in support of the vote which he sh ou ld g i ve, except once more - to say that lie gave that vo t e w i t h the most unfeigned reluctance, and 1 - hat it was n o t i nconsistent with 657 setting a very high value indeed upon the services of Lard Keane and of the ermy. It p a s s e d procee afrsoarnrotahte.ereotnviction, that if these :grants were to y o od eourse—if no indivi duel would take uphoisn Nh,oiimceselaf,tahienst t i h ous and unpleasant duty of raising t in increase ease and mul would not do that, they would graduall 71 —if Getitlem" t i p l y they would become more and nteount of service would b ecome less and c l o e m ss mon an t , the proportion, the higher rewards f or st il l more distt ., n cervices would have to be screwe d up and increased, id' order to maintain their relative value. I t was this strong conviction, and perhaps he ought to hare taken an carn e r opportunity of expressing it, but it teas these considera tions which imposed upon him the duty, from which he could hot shrink, of declaring his disepprohation of the INC.E.,ure then before the House.—( Cheers.) Lord JOHNII US SF.L L was very sorry that his Noble Friend felt it his duty to oppose this vote. Being of an entirety opposite opinion from his Noble Friend, he oh relined an opportunity of stating his sentiments upon the rsahiect. His Noble Friend spoke at length of the re mewls made to the ancient generals, and commended the - persimony of the Romans, But it was to be recollected, that with respect to '.nose times, very different rewards were to be obtained, —a Roman general returned laden with spoils.—(Chettass.) His Noble Friend lied also alluded to The rewards bestowed ire the time of Elizabeth: New, even in chat time Sir Francis Drake brought home with bird, such a quantity of silver as would have shccked the reople of the present day had they seen it in the case of hair John Keane. In those days the Crown had the power no reward with lands, privileges, and monopolies, which w these days would not be tolerated; while even Si r 3 Walter Ral e i g h h ad a pension ofooo/. a_year granted bit by Elitabeth—a sum much gr . Cater, considering the period, than that no - e proposed. Then the Crown could wonfer high offices, or grant liege sinecures or pensions, to lam e who had perfo rme d any signal service to the ' coun try ; but all that was now abolisl ie d— t h e House of Corn- mons had very properly s a id that all this p ower s h ou l d not reetain in the Crown, and where money rewards were to be granted, the House of Commons should be con. suited, in order that it might h ave an o - portunity of showing its gratitude to those per sons who had performed eminent services t o . wards their country. Was not the case under consider ation, one in which emincut services had been performed ? —( Cheers.) It was a case which admitted of no doubt, and the services had been duly considered and fully ac knowledged by the House last year. Now, suppose that tie case had been reversed—even suppose that she policy o! the Government had been entirely wrong, they de. sired the army to cross the Indus. Suppose Sir .John Keane hest made objections respecting the difficulties of the Bolan pass, or compleineci of the smallness of his army, as compared with the force he was ordered against, or that he h a d returned front time enterprise unsuccessful, w se o h u a l t d w h o a u v ld e hheacvn u,,J e s bee ; dangers t o w hi c h t h e empir. s, e at ' e ' o ol7 ---i; Cheers.) Had sue!) been, afortunately, the ` d encumsta ncrs , t h e Govern ment mutt h ave cone to lo.o t o h o e m n eogn e , e, wh a ie n l d i asked an onceadditin t - heoor :e • would have been c.eary to restore. that m ora l force which we would have lost, and an expenditure of probably some 300,000/. would have been essentially necessary, in order to secure the Indian Empire.—(Cheers.) It was, in fact, a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence, after all. They had followed the example set them by the cases of those officers who were promoted after the glorious termination of the war in 1815, and it seemed to him to be the reasonable course to pursue, for it would be a mockery to offer a Peerage to any deserving general, without at the same time giving him the means of supporting the dignity. His Noble Friend said they ought to come to that House for the pension, before they granted the Peerage. That was a doctrine to which he could not agree ; it was most unconstitutional ; and while he remained a Minister of the Crown, he would never bring forward any resolution for a grant of money, upon the decision of which de pended the bestowal of a Peerage.—(Cheers.) Were such a doctrine to obtain, it would be a heavy blow even to democracy. What was to become of a younger brother, or a man who had risen from the ranks—of any poor man who might have performed great and gallant services to the Crown, if the prerogative of the Crown were to be so abridged? Upon all these grounds, and as it was not, and could not be called a political question, as it was to re ward eminent services rendered to the country, he trusted that the House would support the Resolution which was before it. Mr. HUNIF. said that no man ought to be influenced in his vote on this occasion by the charge which had been made against Lord Keane. He objected to the grant, on 'he ground that it was an attempt to pension the aristo cracy at the expense of the people.—( Hear, hear.) He (lid not object to the Qaeen's creating as many Peers as she liked. She might make Lords arid Dukes in shoals.—( A laugh.) The more she made the less value would the possessors of titles put upon their dignities. But did the Noble Lord mean to surround her Majesty with a pauper aristocracy, supported by pensions ? The Noble Lord proposed to continue the pension for two generations. Eut why not carry out his principle to the third? How was the great-grandson of Lord Keene to support the dignity of the peerage without a pension ? He could show in the Pension List mothers and daughters of pauper Peers, and did the Noble Lord think it right to increase the number ?—( Hear, hear.) The question was asked, ought not her Majesty to reward meritorious individuals ? —and allusion was made to the course which he (Mr. Hume) took when he brought the question of sinecure offices before the House. Ile did not depart from what he said then, that it would be better, if men merited re wards, to come to Parliament for a grant. But why not , create life Peerages 1—( Hear, hear.) Those who placed so high a value upon the Peerage, ought net to degrade it by giving it to persons who were not able to maintain its dignity without taking money out of the pockets of the people. It would be more honourable to Lord Keane and to the Government, and safer to the country, to give him a Peerage for life, with sufficient to maintain his dignity so long as he lived, hut not to take his children out of the ranks of the middle classes, in which they could maintain themselves with credit by their own exertions. A second objection to the grant was the state of the finances.— ( Hear, hear.) We were not able to pay the debts we owed already.—(Cheers.) There hail been in the last four years an aggregate deficiency of five millions.—( Hear, hear.) The aristocracy were always ready to pension people out of the money of the people, at the same time that they themselves avoided, by all possible means, to contribute their fair share towards bearing the burthens of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN, after so long intimacy with Lord Keane, hoped the House would allow him to say a few words on the present occasion. He did not mean to reply at any length to the arguments of the Hon. Gen tleman, bat one observation he must make in answer to the Hon. Member's question, whether the officers of the British army were stimulated by the hope of pensions? He could inform the lion. Gentleman that the officers were actuated by as honourable feelings as any body of men in the world. Nine-tenths of them bought their commissions at the full value of their pay, and gave their gratuitous services to their country.—(Cheers.) But it was only right that an officer , who had rendered su c h di s ti ngu i s h e d services as Lord eane, should receive the honour which it was now proposed to confer on him. He would remind his Hon. Friend, that when an officer obtained these high rewards for gallant services, it stimulated and encouraged others to similar deeds of gallantry. It was unnecessary for him to go into the details of the brilliant affair of the taking of Ghuznec, but it was an action that ha - I completed the triumph of their arms in that part of India, and had restored the throne to its rightful possessor. Mr. NI UNTZ did not wish to disparage the services of Lord Keane. He had no objection to their giving him an ample and honourable reward, but he did not think that either be cr the House had any right to tax those who were yet to be born for such a purpose.—( Hear, hear.) Sir H. HA R. DINGE reminded the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, that he had stated, upon the Naval and Military Commission, that he wished all military appointments to be taken away fi om the Crown, but when a fair case was made out, let Government come down with a fair propo. sition and it would be supported. Now when they bad done so the lion. Member turned round upon them. He confessed he did not think such conduct quite consistent. Mr. BROTH E RTO N said they ought rather to confer distinctions on those who had saved lives, instead of con ferring them on those who had caused so great a destruc tion of human life.—( Hear, and laughter.) He would remind them of Captain Clegg, who had last year saved upwards of a hundred lives, and who had not received the slightest reward. He wished to see the Government imi tating the example of the King of the French in that respect. Sir R. JENKINS supported the motion. General JOHNST 0 N E did not wish to detract from the merits of Lord Keane, but he objected to so wasteful an expenditure of the public money. Colonel SIBTHORP would not be doing his duty to his country if he did not give his decided support to the motion. Lord HO WICK explained. He thought the allusions made to him in the course of the debate were quite incon sistent with the usages of the House. His Noale Friend the Secretary of State had not done justice to his argu ment. He had never intended in all cases to object to the union of Peerages and pensions as the reward of great services, for, as he had before stated, in any great cases of military services he approved of it. But it was only in ruch cases he thought it justifiable, or even customary, and he believed that even the greatest of our naval commanders, Lord Nelson, did not receive the reward of a Peerage and a pension until so late in his brilliant career as the battle of the Nile. Colonel SA LWE Y could not avoid expressing his re gret that her Majesty's Ministers had been so ill advised as to propose the continuance of this grant to the two suc cessors of Lord Keane. With regard to the conduct of Lord Keane he believed it could not be said that there was a more gallant officer in the service, but he must oppose a grant to his two successors, which he considered to be in. jurious and erroneous in principle. He must again express his regret that such a grant should have been proposed by her Majesty's Ministers, and it was his opinion that the contrast between their professions in that House and their conduct out of it was melancholy in the extreme.—(lroni cal cheer; from the Opposition.) The House then divided, when there appeared For the motion Against it Majority —ls2 DuTYoN RUM. Sir ALEXANDER GRANT presented a petition against the equalization of the duties on East and West India Rum. Mr. UAW E S presented a petition, signed by the pro prietors of 150,000 acres in British India, engaged in tha production of indigo, raw silk, sugar, and tobacco, in fa vour of equal zation of the duties on the produce of the East and West Indies. On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE the House went into Committee; Mr. BERNAL in the chair. Mr. L ABOUCHERE then moved, " That it is expe dient to reduce the duty payable upon rum or rum shrub, the produce of any British possession within the limits of the East India Company's Charter." stated that it would be very gratifying had they deemed themselves justified in recommending that the duty on East and West India Rum should be assimilated, but the circumstances detailed in the evidence rendered the equa lization inexpedient for the present. To that opinion, expressed after going freely into the evidence, lie (Mr. Goulburn) was prepared to give his assent. There were hundreds who, upon the faith of this declaration, had ex pended capital to an enormous amount in maintaining their establishments, in the hope that a time would come when this expenditure would return them some profit. Nor was that all. That Report was communicated to the House of Commons, and was before the Committee of that House appointed to consider that particular subject— a Committee including within it distinguished Mem bers of the Government.—( Hear.) 'The Report of the House of Lords, declaring that the time had not arrived for placing the East and West Indies upon equal footing was before the Committee of the House of Com mons, and after going fully into the evidence, and sitting for a vary considerable period of the Session, what was their Report? It was:as follows :—" That this Commit tee find it impossible to conclude in the present Sesiien the evidence proposed to be laid before them, and they, think they shall best perform their duty by confining them selves to reporting to the House tiro evidence already taken." They thought it best to report the evidence with out expressing any opinion contrary to that already before the public, and they gave an intimation that they should re sume the inquiry in the next Session of Parliament. New, he put it to the House whether it would have been ex pected, after what had:taken place, when the evidence had not been long enough in the hands of Membar3 to enable them, by the exercise of ordinary dilige ace, to go through it, that the first measure of Government in the Session would have been entirely at variance with the decision that had been come to in the House of Lords, and acquiesced in in the Commons, with respect to the equalization of these duties ? It was not. the rum of India alone which was sought to be placed upon an equal footing. No man who had attended to the evidence, or consulted those who are most conversant with the opinions which had been excited in this country, could entertain a doubt that rum was not the only article which was to be affected by the proposed alteration. No man could suppose that it was intended to limit it to the spirit which was produced from the refuse of the sugar-cane. The measure would extend a great deal further in its immediate operation than the statements and reasoning of the Hon. Gentleman who proposed it would seem to intimate. What necessity, he would ask, was there for deviating from what had been recommended by the House of Lords ? Could they not render the altera tion proposed gradual—could it not be introduced by degrees, so that the fall in the price of commodities, the produce of the West Indies that would necessarily result from the changes proposed, would not be attended with such sudden loss as it would otherwise be ? They were not in that question called on, as regarded the East Indies, to provide for a greatly suffering people. There was no representation in the documents to which lie referred, that the interest there engaged in the manufacture of rum or the growth of sugar, was suffering any great depression. They were not called on to provide for the security of a large capital which, on the faith of the country, was invested in a peculiar trade there. They were not called on to introduce any prohibition which would have the effect of excluding from existing advantages those who enjoyed them. They were not called on to remove any prohibition fatal to the existence of any branch of internal or external commerce. Quito the contrary; The Com mittee of the:House of Lords, and Ministers, told them that, it was quite the contrary—that the effect of postponement in the present instance was only to cause for a moment a new source of profit. The Hon. Gentleman here referred to portions of the evidence given before a Committee of the House by rum-producers, which were favourable to the views which he wished to impress on the House, and con tinued to observe that so far was the trade in sugar, the produce of the West Indies, from increasing, that the very contrary was the case. lion. Members knew from documents laid on the table, and that were in the hand's of every man, that the produce of those colonies had hitherto been decreasing. They knew also—at least they might easily calculate—what would be the effect on the civilization and improvement of those colonies if, by a sudden blow, they should cause to be withdrawn the capital now employed in paying the labourers on the several estates. They should remember that the state of society there had within the last few years undergone an entire revolution. The people were not in slavery now as hitherto, and it should be recollected that that very state of slavery un ' doubtedly increased the production there beyond what the hands employed upon it could reasonably induce HOP. ' Members to calculate upon. He sincerely rejoiced that that state of slavery had been changed for that of freedom. He never ventured to measure the advantages obtained by individuals against the permanent advantages obtained by the whale body of the people by the enjoyment of freedom. He was ever ready to concur in the measures of Parlia ment, either 'for improving the condition of the slaves, or subsequently conferring freedom ; upon them nor did he, though: suffering in common with others from the conse quences of that measure, regret its being carried into ope• ration. When those measures were first enacted, those who took a real interest in the welfare of the coloni.s, and had estates there, betook themselves, in the interval of the apprenticeship, to expend the money they received from Government, in endeavouring to make the system of free dom work well when it would have cove to pass. He could instance many persons who having no debts or in cumbrances on their own estates, had expended the whole of their capital in making preparations on their estates for the abolition of slavery, and for gradually introducing the negroes to freedom. Those individuals who thus stood by the colonies, were plunged into difficulties which it was impossible fur those who had not experienced them to con ceive. He spoke not only from his owe experience, but L from that of others. Tho sudden burst of freedom made every slave wild with joy. It became almost impcissible to I get any of them to work, and in conseluence the crops were frequently left uncollected. Hon. Gentlemen might not be aware of the disastrous consequences of leaving the flocks uncollected, but they were such as would pre vent the proprietors of estates from obtaining the least return or profit from their properties for a series of years afterwards. Such having been the difficulties in which the holders of estate: in those colonies, but espe cially in the island of Jamaica, were plunged by the change which had taken place by the decision of Parlia ment, and employed as they had been since that period, in endeavouring to recover the ground which from that cir. cumstance they had lost, by continued expenditure on their properties, in the hope of obtaining a return, all he was anxious to ask of the House—and it was no more than what had been recommended by a Committee of the House of Lords—was that they should not at that moment, when capital was being expended, when there had not elapsed time sufficient to allow of such a re-establishment of pro• perty, as to admit of the slightest return of any part of the capital expended—all he asked of the Ilouse was to adopt the well considered resolution of the House of Lords, and not visit those colonies, so suffering and so injured, with the ruinous consequences in which the equaliza tion of duties would irretrievably involve them. Taking the question as merely one of duty, the difference of the distinctive duties on East and West India products of sugar amounted, as stated in evidence given before the House, and which they had on the table, to 12 per cent. and by means of the measure of emancipation and its consequences, the price of labour had been so raised, that the amount of duty imposed on the produce of the West Indies was in effect more than double that sum. The Right Hoe. Gentleman next proceeded to show that the relative conditions of the cultivators of the soil in the West and East Indies, were materially different, aad that the producers in the East had advantages in that respect which the West Indian planter did not possess. In the West Indies the labourer might work one day and idle the next, or go to any portion of the colony, and perhaps never be heard of again. That was not the case in the East Indies ; there was a connection arising Irons the cir curnstaeces of society in that country, which bound the labourer more or less to the cultivation of the property on which he happened to reside, and that gave a facility of obtaining labour which it was not possible to possess in the ' West Indies, and that circumstance alone, he contended, ought to induce Hon. Members to take a favourable view of the present condition of the West Indies, and not to press the present measure. Thu grower of sugar in the East Indies had other advantages, too, that were inaccessible to the owners of estetes in the West Indies. The growers of sugar is the East Indies had a market of one hundred millions of people in which to di-pose of their produce. The sugar of the East Indies travelled into the interior of Asia, and into those extensive traets to which the Russian merchants treflieked, and from that enormous market of one hundred millions of people the West Indian producer was more effectually excluded than by any system of prohibi ' tory duties that could be established. He believed the equalization of duties was essential to the provpel ity of the East Indies. He would readily waive, as far as was con sistent with the safety of our other posse - sions, all claims on the part of the body on whose be. half he was speaking. But when lie saw that they had unlimited means of extending their produce, short o f ex teeding the whole of it into this country, he could not per suade himself, after the most candid atiention he could give to the subject, that by postponing the equalization of d u ty there cculd be any degree of permanent or even temporary injury to their interests. He knew the Right lion. Gen tleman ( Mr. Lebouchcre) had tried to raise something in favour of his argument by saying that the present West India trade was an odious monopoly. It might be very well to give such names to interests ma were desirous to abolish, but ho confessed he had heard with some satisfac tion the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Tl.e Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated that if he could believe that the measure in question would be injurious to the West Indies he should be the last to propose it, and he (Mr. Goulburn) trusted he had in some degree satisfied him th it these interests would be placed in jeopardy by the course he w as a b out to pursue . B u t if he had failed to d o this, he asked if the Right lion. Gentleman was aware of the effect which the mere statement of his intentions had produced ? On the very day on whirls he produce? oa r dt h ub e ce h ei f o . 7 , t a il t l i e, d l3 t c h t 1 1 , l e o ( n . M G r e ) m a a s k n e v d : stated his i ntent i ons, British Rum fell in the market 15 as I n ie ot co a u e l i k i i re nu o t f thence estimate what a l arm t h e success of th i s measure would ose most interested in it were pretty shrewd estimators of coming events. What then wore likely to be the consequences of this measure if the House should Sc'he Bightte understand,xi uiexisting thatedriuttl ieetisii:e.ionnothol:vedei their given l)ireundt u didtel ti,e cede to it ? T o e difficulties in which the Colonies l were sMr. Giornuil)breusrisie)dluiapdonsuici•ieseoewdendmi ipb n n \ le o V gai ti: eg i intend I ; e cui c L an d o d isl i iuc a t bi s 7 ei h el, a ( flo),,fid‘ere, hat ind, that t le measure could not affect East India produce, he thought h.: had said enough to satisfy them that they would have aeted more vi isely, nice e consistently, and he might say, more justly, if they bad adopted the resolution of the Co n mittee of the Hofew of Lords, and net hastily and at once subjected our West India interests to violent change at a time when they were on the brink of ruin, but have waited till it was decided, as it would speedily be, whether it was possible for them to weather the storm under which they were labouring, and t o com p ete with other interest s. o He knew, when they considere d the enormous p o p ulati on the East Indies, and the l imited p o p ulation of the \Veit Indies, some persona might be of opinion the latter ; were comparatively little dcserviNg of notice, But he Mr. GOULBURN had certainly expected . : the ques tion would have been discussed as to whiat effect this pro posed measure would hays on the system of slavery in In dia before the question was agreed to. It had formerly been the custom, in considering cases of this nature, for the Members of the Government either to investigate the subject in the recesses of their offices, and to receive infor mation from all the parties interested to guide their judg ment, and to come to the House without any previous an nouncement of their opinion. or to come down to the House and to propose a Select Committee, before which the different parties interested would have an oppor tunity of urging whatever they might think necessary for the . protection of their interests, and that Committee there o n nieni,it having considered the whole of the evidence, reported In the present instance, howeve r, neither ea lulledh a d ibnetoenseefoulrl security w e b d ; t h e 'T The Govern.W eesri i h a e interest t e th s le t i clsiea House. mart, who now turned round upon them. y - The case was altogether a new one ; and he should be glad to hear from any gentleman connected with the Government - on what ground they rested the arguments for the adoption of the course merely i plead which they hail pursued. Ile was ricit ing the cause of that interest with whicihm'vb property he was unfortunately connected, but he was pleading the cause of every honest man who had embarked in trade, who had a right to be told why certain measures were adopted, by which he felt his property would be u i r n e : iv in considerable hazard. It would be in the recollection of the House that early in the course of last Session the East India Company presented a petition stating va rious grievances under which they considered them selves labouriag in respect to the differential duties levied on East Indian produce. Nothing could be fairer than that petition. It was suggested to his Hon. Friends the Members for Shrewsbury and 13i verlev, who presented cam e that petition, that it would be better to refer it to a SAect Cominitee, and that recomm endation he believed from a Member of the Government. Sir J. C. HOBIIO USE—Yes ; from myself. Mr. GOULBURN—In consequence of that recom mendation, the petition= of the East India Company, both to this and the other House of Parliament, were referred to Select Committees of Members of the respective !louses. In the other House of Parliament the Members of the Government took a direct part in that Committee. The first on the list of that Committee was the Noble Lord who presided over the Council, and who, from his position and knowledge, might be considered as fairly representing the feelings of the Government. Another Member of that Committee was the Noble Lord who held the Privy Seal, and who was also now Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and he considered he was paying the Noble Lord no idle compliment when ho said h e considered that ho possessed perhaps greater power o f forming a correct: judgment on such a sub ject th an any of his callea gues ; and that he was more peculiarly fitted for such an inquiry from the great diligence and ability with whicn be had for a long time executed the functions of a Commissioner of Customs, which afforded him peculiar opportunities of becoming o n m acquainted tr,e ni with n d et operation h a e ßcp ,rt, f from rn which o f differential b e w would n d l u d t duties. an .T e h x a . t c tract. The Right lion. Gentleman then read an extract from t h e Re jwt of tug Lord,' Committee. Ti e Committee THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 13. 1841 never could forget that cur West Indian Islands were among the earliest possessions of the British Crown—that it was through the medium of these colonies Great Britain had acquired that strength and interest, and naval power which had made her one of the greatest powers in the world. -It was through them she had been enabled to acquire this empire in India, for which the Committee was now prepared to sacrifice their interests. The time might come when, through the medium of these colonies, Great Britain might still have the means of rendering herself illustrious in war and wealthy in peace. There might still exist feelings of regard between them, if Great Britain would consent in time to cement thoSe bonds ot intercourse which were necessary for their mutual inte rests. He apologised to the Committee for so long tres passing on their attention. His object had been to insist, on the part of the West Indian body, upon the obligations of good faith which the Government were under, and to call upon the Committee not to sanction the principle proposed to it, or to adopt a course which, if pursued, would involve our West Indian possessions in immediate difficulty, if not in absolute ruin. —( Hear, hear.) Mr. LABOUCEI E R E said he confessed he had heard the speech just addressed to the Committee by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) with great satisfaction. —( Cheers.) Attaching, as he did, great importance to the motion he had brought forward, both on account of its merits, but still more on account of the principle which it contained—(Cheers) —he confessed he rejoiced that he had heard from a gentleman possessed of the ability, in formation, and long experience of the Right lion. Gentle man, arguments which, unless he greatly deceived him self, had in them so little substance—( Cheers)—that, comparatively speaking, in even a short statement from himself, inferior as he knew himself to be to the Right lion. Gentleman in every quality, he trusted it would be extremely easy to convince the House that nothing had been stated which ought to interpose any obstacle to the immediate adoption of this resolution.—( Cheers. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman had begun by complaining of the conduct of the Government, because, having assented to the appointment of a Committee of both Houses, on the subject in the course of last Session, and the Committee of the House of Lords having expressed an opinion not unfavourable to the principle of this measure, but, on the contrary, assenting to it, but recommended delay before it was adopted, the Government agreed with the House of Lords on the principle, but were un able to agree in the recommendation that delay should take place.—(Cheers.) It was not for him to speak dis respectfully of any recommendation of either house of Parliament, still less of the recommendation of a Commit tee which consisted of Noble Lords of the greatest capa city, and which had given the subject an attentive investi gation. But thistle would say, that, in his opinion, no Minis ter who held the situation he had the honour to hold, had a right to skulk behind the Report of any Committee, either in defending himself, or bringiug forward a proposition which he did not believe to be just and reasonable ; or, on the other hand, for refusing to bring forward a measure which he believed to be expedient and necessary for the public interest.—(Cheers.) And he would also say, with respect to these general Reports of Committees of both Houses of Parliament, that he thought them invaluable for collecting information, and suggesting general principles:; but as to advising the House as to the precise mode and time for carrying any measure into effect, he believed this would be much better done by those who, having access to official sources of information, were more likely to come to a correct conclusion as to the manner of carrying it into effect than any Committee could be. The Right Hon. Gentleman had taunted him that two Noble Friends, who were now Members of the Government, had been Members of this Committee of the house of Lords. He (Mr. Labouchcre) acknowledged this to have been the case, but be believed they had attached more importance than they ought to have done to the statement of the West Indians, as to the effect of the alteration ; but he had been able to give his Noble Friends satisfactory rea sons that these statements were incorrect, as he hoped lie should be able to give the Committee. In truth, the question between the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself lay in a very narrow compass. The Right Hon. Gentle man had just told the House the West Indians had no in defeasible right to a monopoly any more than her Majesty's colonial subjects in any other part of the world. All he had said was, that the pecu liar circumstances in which the West Indies were placed called for some important application of a prin ciple which he believed to be abstractedly just. He (Mr. Labouchere) thought he should be able to show to the House—he did not at all deny the effect of this motion would be important, that of necessity, it must be gradual— that it could produce no 'sudden effect to the ruin of West Indian interests. Such statements were founded on the most exaggerated views. He trusted that the House would bear with him while he entered into such details of this dry subject as were necessary to make it intelligible. —( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon, Gentleman had re minded him of a statement he had made with regard to the present condition of the rum trade, when he had first brought the question before the House. He (Mr. Goul burn) had stated, and stated forma'', that at that mo ment there was a greater quantity of rum brought into the the United Kingdom than could be consumed in it—( Hear, hear)—and that in consequence the surplus was exported, and that though the West Indians find no minally and legally a monopoly of the Engi;:h market, yet they were not able to impose upon the Eng lish market a monopoly of price. That was true;; but it was not true if they altered the duty. They did not sud denly alter the prices of rum as it' they were to let in foreign sugar. He believed it was quite true of the coarse sorts of rum and the rum of the Leeward Islands, but the rum of Jamaica was in a different situation ; its price was nearly double the Leeward Islands rum. Jamaica rum undoubtedly maintained u monopoly of price in the English market, and they anticipated that if the East Indiana were allowed to bring rum here then would be able to compete with Jamaica rum and to gradually reduce its price. But was not this a desirable object ? ( Cheers.) Was it not fair that the East Indians should introduce runt and sell it ? But it was obvious that this could not be done at once. It would require some time to improve the quality of Indian rum, and when he said he did not object to do this, he would remind the House that the price of rum was higher now in England than at any time during the last twenty-five years. lie said, therefore, that the British consumer ougjrt not to be lost sight of in a question of this sort. It would be an inducement to introduce finer as well as coarse sugar. Ile thought he had sufficiently shown the house that he should not inflict a sudden blow on the West Indian interests, or do anything to produce an effect which had been described in such exaggerated language as that of placing the West Indies in a state of hopeless and irretrievable ruin. lie now begged the attention of' the House to what appeared to him to be an important branch of the subject, namely, the effect the present system of discouragement to import. ing East Indian nroduce had on the produce and supply of sugar to this country. lie trusted the House would con sider the double operation of the present system. 'I he Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the evidence before the Committee, but individuals of the highest respeeta leility, Mr. Rogers and others, who bad embarked large capital in the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies, stated that they found they could no longer find a market for mo lasses unless encouragement were given them to make it into rum, which proved a serious check to the cultivation of sugar. The testimony of Mr. Symonds was to the same effect, He (Mr. Labouchere) believed this mono poly restricted the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies, and that the present system of rum duties operated as a serious discouragement to their efforts. He would now turn to the West Indies, and what was the effect produced by these duties there. There was remarkable evidence given by the West Indians themselves. lie alluded to a witness whom the Right lion, Gentleman had quoted, named Green, who said, " The consequence of the h gin price of rum in the West Indies, is to divert the ma nufacture of the produce of the sugar cane from the manufacture of sugar to the manufacture of rum." The proportion was now entirely reversed, and more rum came, and less sugar. —(Mr. Goulburn cheered.) The Right Honourable Gentleman cheered, implying that it was advantageous to the West Indies. But what was its effect here ?—( Cheers.) Was it not shown that this system cheeks the production of sugar in the West Indies, by giving the merchant encouragement to send ruin instead of sugar ; and that in the East Indies it also discouraged the manufacture of sugar, and diminished the supply ? He must say when these were the c ifects—when this was the injurious operation of these duties in the East and West Indies, he was convinced this inequality was a gross injustice—( Chem s)—ene which rankled in the minds of the Indian community, and which it was their duty to remove. On the other hand, being convinced diet there were no real ,grounds for saying that the removal of dile system would be fatal to the prosperity of the West Indies, he f, lt, if he had adopted a different course, he should have deserted hi:: duty, and broken his faith to those gen tlemen connected with the East Indies viiioni he promised, riot only that these matters should be referred to a Coin. mittee, but that he would consider their Report, and if convinced that any part of their demand was founded in justice, would lose no time in applying a remedy to the evils of which they complained.—(hear, hear.) lie would not detain the Howe much longer. lie was almost asheined of urging this question again, after it had been 20 much narrowed.—( Hear, hear.) When he looked at the situation of India, and remembered that they drew Government, for which th e y could give three millions and a half annually for thenoexriemtunrcne,s t u if ni t , l s ie s when he recollected that we had not, it was by means of th e p ro p o s e d tnea se i r ,, e ) — wi ( ri l i l it e t a e r, d, h i e) by the effect of our laws, though they had too often been unjust, but by the effect of our machinery, and by the natural advantages we possessed, utterly destroyed her manufac tures; when he recollected that it had been stated by one of the witnesses, that a town which was formerly considered the Manchester of India had dwindled down, to 30,000 inhabitants, and the jungle and malaria were gaining upon its streets, and there were numerous classes of persons in that country who, from the prejudices of caste, found it no difficult to obtain employment, that they had been reduced to the lowest state of misery and distress ; when he con sidered all these things, he thought he had a right to ask tire house to accede to the measure which wee then under their attention. Ile would not weary tile House with the details of this question, but really there were some facts so remarkable that he could not help referring to them. Ile held in his hand a return of the quantities of cottons and muslins of British manufacture which had been exported in tire last few years, and really the increase was most remarkable. The lion. Gentleman then pro ceeded to give some returns, showing an in the exportation of muslins and cotto - th it e l 1837 had in i c ia rease ln fr l o 7 9 s lB th i4 e ivtaalumeouonfteydartno 602,0001. 5efr0 All Eng t l h a e nd ev e i ls n l e 6 e ,o w o ,l o ll / cil received showed that the demand on the part of India for ow manufactures was only limited by our own restrictions. He would not, as he might do, appeal to the feelings, the generosity, and the justice of that House ; but he would ask those who represented British interests and British manufactures whether they would not be consulting their own interests by giving encouragement to Indian produce? —( Hear, hear.) lie did not know that, until be heard some further arguments upon the subject , he needed trouble th e House at any greater length. He confessed him. self rejoiced that the lion. Gentleman did not use argu ments which lie had seen calculated in certain papers; he rejoiced that the Right Hun. Gentleman, thuugh he had fairly stated his views as a West Ine'inn, and his opinion that the measure should not be adopted on account of the peculiar situation of the West Indic 's, did not at tempt an unworthy appeal—and he m ost say it was an appeal as foolish as it was unworthy- —to the vague fears of the agricultural interest.—( Hear, hear.) 11, would have blushed if, on that occasion, he had seen a gen tleman of England come forward, with a proteeeion . really with at that moment upon British spirit , as compared 1 lco lonial spirit, greater by 181. gallon. Ho s..t‘ U h d t have blushed if he had seen an .English gentleman — Mr. H. GOULBURN—In England? Mr. L AB OUC HERE—The difference would be still greater in Ireland and Scotland. He imagned no ono would suppose that there was the slightest danger in the two countries.—(Hear, hear.) But he 'veiny hope d that that argument would not be used, for it would test he a Cro ditable argument to say that, with this enormous pieteCtleirs they were af aid that such was the fertility of Incijil that they were afraid some pot tions of British spirits might lit possibility he displaced by spirits coming from India, f' 7 this Bill passed. He expected to have had to deal more at large with that argument, but as it bad not been advanced by the Hon. Gentleman, he would not trouble the House with any observations upon it. He would now state, in conclusion, that attaching, as he did, greet importance to this question on its own merits, he attached much greater importance to it on account of the principle which it in volved. He was quite sure that in a country like this, possessing a widely-extended colonial empire, there was but one safe as well no rational principle, namely, to treat with equal favour and justice, every portion of that empire. —( Hear, hear.) He therefore hoped that he should re ceive the support of the House upon that occasion. Ile would not trouble the House any further than to thank them for the indulgence which they had shown him. Mr. EWA lIT said that the Right llon. Gentleman opposite, in opposing this measure, had first based his opposition upon the Report of the House of Lords. Uoon that he had been fully met by his Hon. Friend. He heal then taken refuge in the proceedings of the Committee of the House of Commons. That Committee, it was said, made no Report. But why had they not done so? Not because they were not convinced by the arguments in fa vour of the equalization of duty, but because the Commit tee was delayed throughout the whole of its proceedings by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Mauritius, whom he saw opposite to him.—( Laughter. The Hon. Member was understood to refer to Mr. Irving.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the East Indian rum found a ready market. Upon that point he would refer to the evidence taken before the Committee. Mr. Trevillian stated that there was no market for East Indian rum, when it could be sold et a profit, except in the Eng lish market. Mr. Rogers, who was himself the owner of a large factory in the interior of India, said, that under the present system there was no effective competition between East and West India rum. He confessed he should have been better pleased if her Majesty's Government had pro posed a more comprehensive measure. He thought they were bound to encourage the importation of the national productions of India—sugar, rum, cotton, tobacco, indigo, and other articles. As they had greeted the reduction of the sugar duties it fo s ed as a matter of course that the equalization of the s duties should be conceded also. It should be r bered that, at the conclusion of 1839, the stock of s r was calculated at 40,000 tons, and that at the end of 1840 it was 200,000. In 1835 the consumption was 200,000 tone, whilst in 1840 it was only 165,000. The people of England were thus deprived of 35,000 tons, although the population was increasing.— Rum was not the only article upon which the duty was unequal. There was a duty of 9d. upon Mysore coffee, instead of the colonial duty of 6d. This was a great in justice to the people of India. Mysore was virtually a British possession; it was one of those countries which came under the subsidiary system, and ought not therefore to be treated with such manifest injustice. There were at this moment many prospects of advantages to the Bri tish capitalist in India. In a:most all parts of India, the transit duties had been abolished. Though they still existed to a certain extent in Madras, yet they were gra dually disappearing ; and this would be a great relief to commerce and manufactures, and greatly encourage capi talists'in their undertakings. In the last Session of Par liament he (Mr. Ewart) moved for returns of the existing settlements in India. It was gratifying to know that they were constantly on the increase. He hoped the time would arrive when the settlements of India would be like the German Confederation, which united all the parts of that extensive empire, bound together by a community of interests. They would never be able to call forth its resources whilst it remained in detached portions; its resources would be called out when it formed one vast and comprehensive whole, and he trusted that the small beginning, for small it was, which was then about to be made, would be finally consummated in a far more comprehensive system, and that, commencing with the reduction of duties, they would end in the con solidation and assimilation of them throughout the whole continent of India. Mr. COLQUHOUN looked upon the proposed mea sure as oue which would ultimately tend to the benefit of our West Indian as well as our East Indian colonies. The present state of things, on the cootrary, was injurious to both colonies. He felt that every protection should now sugar-cane. With regard to the certificate of the re venue officer in India, on which the Right Hon. Gentle man stated he could rely as confidently as on the certifi cate of a revenue officer in this country, it should be re collected that the revenue officers in this country were ap pointed by the Government, and had no interest exccpt to do their duty to their employers. Now, in the East Indies, they were appointed by the Company ; and it was their direct interest to procure the exportation of spit its to this country. There was a great difference betwesn the two cases. He would not go back to the times m r 1792, or to any times previous to Emancipation, in ar guing this question on behalf of the West India interests. It should be recollected that by the great measure of Emancipation the West Indies had been placed in a novel situation. He did not impngn that great measure, but it found himself and others in possession of certain rights, with which it was found impossible to deal without a grant of money. He was not going to edeny that the grant of twenty millions was an enormous su o, but when it was talked of as compensation, it was far h em placing them in the position which they had occupied, and, c entinued the Hon. G en tl eman , I appea l to you, B er, sal, whether such is not the case."--( Loud laugh ter.) His. Right Hon. Friend had told them that what he had receives. as compensation he h a d no t p ut i nto hi s own pocket, but he had . laid it out o n th e i m p rcvement o f hi s estate, and, said th e H on . B arone t, " M r. B ernal, I appeal to you, Sir, referriiese to the income you received More that period, and the incerme you ,have received ever since, whether you consider yreurself compensated.—( Shouts of laughter mingled with cries of " Question, question," " Di vide, divide.") H e himself had not received any be nefit. The reduction in the production of his es tates had been great, and he had to pay high wages, which he had not had to pay before, and yet the production had diminished ( Hear, hear.) Perhaps it might be said he was furnishing an argument against himself, and in favour of increasing the sugar cultivation in the Emit Indies. No such thing. in former times the production of the West Indies had been more than sufficient for the consumption of England ; but now the stimulus to labour in the West Indies was so sme ll, that the supply of labour w as not sufficient for the ce t t i e ,etion. When the supply of labour should be in creased, he had no doubt but the .supply would be again to the demands of Engler. d. The estates were fully equa. l now cultism). sd at an actual loss ; and,, if this state of things continued, t e s ee must eventually go out of cultivati o n.— (Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") With regard to the price of sugar, it should be recollected that the war duty of 253. was st.;ll continued, and that that duty had been still further increased last Session. He would sug gest to the Right Hon. Piessident of the Board of Trade a verbal alteration in the reso2ution, which would do away with the necessity of dividing---.'t was that the duty should be gradually reduced. Sir Luelmemi)N sa id the t there were three great interests to be considered in discus sing this question ; first, the interests of the consumers .in this country— ( Cheers)—secondly, the` just claims ofi he inhabitants o our extensive dominions in the East ,Indies—(Hear hear)—and, thirdly, the state and position of hose holding f property in the West Indies. He would be,' its by observ ing that he heartily concurred in the gene,sal prissiciples' laid down by his Right Hon. Friend. &sailer Great Britain nor any other country had any right to m e lee con quests of extensive dominions, and keep them in a state of dependence, if those dominions were governed oe any other principles than for the benefit and happiness of the people inhabiting them.—( Loud cheers.) He had loOk ed at the history of India with sorrow, and sometimes wit h disgust, however much he might admire the brilliant ex ploits which our arms had frequently achieved in that country. There were many scenes in the history of our connection with that country over which he would wish to cast a shade; but this only rendered it a more imperative duty en the House and the country to govern India for the benefit of the inhabitants. How that duty had been discharged no man could doubt, who looked to the records of the last few years, more particularly to the labours of the Committee of 1835. It was . their duty now to do every thing in their power to promote the prosperity of that unfortunate country, and to redress those wrongs and that injustice which had heretofore been inflicted on it. Entertaining those views, it was impossible that he should not be prepared to offer every , encouragement to the inhabitants of Hindostan.—( Hear, hear.) Looking again to the condition of the consumers of sugar in this country, there could be no doubt that the diminished im portation of that article had operated on them with the utmost severity..—(Hear, hear.) There was, however, a fear that it would be attempted to introduce into this country the produce of slave labour. His Hon. Friend below him had said that free labour could compete successfully with slavery. Now he (Sir S. L.) admitted that under equal circumstances it could do so. But he would say that the British Colonies could not contend with Cuba and Brazil, where every day rich soils were being brought for the first time into cultivation, and there was a m s titinual and uninterrupted importation of slaves.—( Hear, hear.) This led him to consider the case of the West Indies. The Hort. Gentleman opposite (Sir A. Grant) had said that the Colonies were in a state of transition, and that time ought to be allowed them to recover.—(Hear.) Now be thought that argument Would be overwhelming, if it had the force in the present case which the Hon. Gentleman alleged. It was his firm opinion that this measu:e could not affect their interests. He remembered to have heard Mr. Huskisson state on several occasions that the East Indies could never compete with the West in the production of sugar, and it was very well known that the great increase which had taken place lately in the exportation was occasioned, not by an increaso of produc tion, but at the expense of the native consurn.srs, in conse quence of the advance if price in Europe:—( Er as er, hear.) In considering the appeal of the Hon. Member tor Cam bridge, who had stated his own case SQ pathetically, I t t them look to the present state of Jamaica—let them bear in mind that the inferiority if that island to the other colonies less' fa vourably circumstanced in all other respects, was owing to want of judgment on the part of the Jamaicans themselves.• Antigua, with a worn-out soil, had gone on improving. Bar badoes, which was scarcely better off in that respect, was rising to prosperity. He could not doubt, therefore, that the great island of Jamaica would also surmount its difficulties.— ( Hear, hear.) He would net vote for any measure which did not fully provide against the introduction of any slave-grown produce whatever.—( Hear, hear.) If such api ovision was not secured the West Indies would have good right to complmn ___(J:fear)—and the people of England would have a right to complaLn, that after expending twenty millions for the suppres sion of slavery, they were to be again drawn into the encourage ment of it.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the House to sup port hint at a future stage of the Bill in the introduction of a clause to protect this country from the introduction of slave produce. —( Cries of "Divide, divideS") Lord SANDON, who was very iedstinctly heard in the gallery, said he had listened with great attention and interest to the discussion. He thought there was one party whose interest ought to he consideied, and who had not been attended to in the debate—net the West India proprietors, but that popula tion of 800,000 lobourers who were now undergoing a great ex periment. He thought it desirable that the capita;.ists holding property in those colonies should be encouraged to carry that experiment to a successful result. To gratify feelings of our own, we had prevented them from introducing free labourers from other parts of the world, and we ought not to depTive them altogether of our assistance.—( Hear, hear.) Ile thought that they should have a little time before they were exposed to this new competition, and he should therefore suggest that the law should not come into operation for two) years.—( Hear. ) Mr. L AI3OUCHERE thought that it was not at all ad visable to accede to the proposition of the Noble Lord, who, he believed, spoke rathor from the suggestions of the West India proprietors than from his own opinions. It was, how ever, a matter of necessity that considerable time should elapse before the Bill came into operation. The rum. now under bond would of course not be admitted under this Bill—(Hear) —and as no rum would be admitted without the certificate of identity, which must come from India, the Bill could not come at tall into practical effect under six months, nor to any extent ' for several months more.—( Hear, hear.) No deiay in the passing of the measure was necessary, and he should oppose any amendment having that object.—(Hear, and " Divide.") Mr. HOGG rose amidst loud cries of "Divide." He was only anxious to ask whether there existed any intention to adopt the clause of the Right Hon. Gentleman? Be could not allow the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman to go forth to the public without stating that there was not one pound of sugar made in India by slave labour. He was quite certain that the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman would not satisfy himself—how could they expect to put down slavery by a discriminating duty of 6s. per:gallon ? Sir CHARLES GREY then rose, and was saluted by loud cries of "Oh oh !" and " Divide," which for a time (frowned his voice. We understood him to say that the clause proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets would be quite fallacious; suppose it was agreed to, where and by whom was the discovery to be made that certain rums were made from sugars, the produce of free or slave la bour? It was an impracticable scheme. He •kad now been eight years from India, but he could state that when he was there, there was an anxious desire on the part of the Govern ment to put an end to all slave labour, and that they would carry out these plans at the earliest moment was his firm belief. Sir R. PEEL then rose, and was met with cries of "Divide ; " he said it was all very well to cry "Divide," but it was to be borne in mind that the question was a very important one, and and that, in fact, that single debate would decide it. He was anxious to state the impression which had been made on his mind by reading the evidence upon the subject, and he came to its consideration with a mind totally unbiassed; he was con nected neither with the East nor the West Indies, and if he had any predilection at all it was in favour of the consumer.— ( Hear, hear.) Ile felt bound to say that many of the argu ments which had been advanced against the equalization of the duties had made no impression on his mind ; but neither could lie admit that the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Dr.. Lushingten) had any weight; he could not admit that slavery existed in India to such a degree as to entitle them to postpone the equalization of the duties. ( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Member might attempt to destroy slavery in the present Session, but he (Sir R. Peel) was afraid that it was so much connected with caste that he would find it a much more difficult matter than he seemed to expect, and if they were to postpone the equalization of the duties until that desirable end had been effected, they would postpone it to a period that would be most acceptable to the most ardent friend of the West India inte rests.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, however, that the West India interests had not had clue notice of the change which was now proposed—he thought they ought to have had some inti mation from the Government during the last Session of their intention to make the proposed alteration ; and even now be thOught that they ought to commence the reduction imme diately—say that they should reduce the duty 2s. during the present year, 2s. more the next year, and provide that at the end of the third year the duties should be wholly assimilated.—( Hear, hear, hear.) That would be doing justice to all parties—they would thereby recognise the principle of equality, and at the same time afford the West In dian interest full notice of the intentions of the Legislature. That was clue to that interest. A vast and most important experiment was now going oa in the West Indies, and it was very important that it should be meddled with as little as pos sible ; it was most important that it should be successful, in order to deprive the slave-holding countries, France and Ame rica, of the opportunity of appealing to our nee-success in fa vour of their system of slavery.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the plan he proposed would be the most prudent course ; and if any Gentleman moved accordingly, he would feel bound to vote with him, but he did not think that his duty compelled him to disturb the unanimity of the House by making the pro. position. In answer to a question from Lord SANDON, Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government did not in terfere with any emigration from India to the West Indies, where the parties paid their own passage ; but the Government did not think it would be fair to raise a general tax for such a purpose. The resolution was then put from the Chair and agreed to without a division. The House then resumed. On the motion that the House do resolve itself into a Com mittee of Ways and Means, Mr. GOULBURN complained that the usual precedents had not been follo Ned in going Into Committee of Supply, inasmuch be abolished. For the sake of ih - e West Indian interest itself, he desired that there should be introduced into the -narkets of this country such an amount of sugar from the E a i t :_ndies as would serve as a safety-valve to the Go-. vernment ab eainst the strong pressure which demanded a reduction on the: sugar duties; and he believed that the increased consemptioi: which would follow would be bene ficial to the East Indies, and even to the West Indies themselves. If be looked to the manufacturing interests of the country also, ho felt t h a t et Leci reduction was neces sary. Such a measure would bind the East Indies to this country by the strongest tie that could Imite them, an identity of interests. How could they otherw:se preserve that mighty empire which contributed so much to ti;;' great ness of this country? The Russian and the British em pires in the East were now fast approaching each other, and would soon, perhaps, have to contend for the mastery there, while it would soon perhaps be a question with a large portion of the inhabitants of Asia to which they should attach themselves ; and, under these cir cumstances, was it not of the utmost importance to convince the people of the East, that while the principles of Russia were those of commercial monopoly and self. interest, the policy of Great Britain, on the contrary, would be large, liberal, mid generous—( Hear, hear)—and that while they introduced into the last the manufactures of England, as it was the interest of both people, they would throw open, on the other hand, to the produce of the East the ports of this country. Such it course would not only advance the cause of civilization, but would pro mote the best interests of this country. On these grounds he would support the motion of the Right Hon. Gentle man ; and he did think that, whatever might be said as to the Right lion. Gentleman having broken faith with the West Indies, after the Report that had been published, and the evidence taken, the GovernMent were right in the course they had followed.—( Hear,. h'ear.) Mr. HAWES said he believed that an undue protection had hitherto been given to the West Indies, and the result was, that the inhabitants of those colonies had neglected the resources which they possessed. They acre, therefore, obliged to have constant recourse to the assistance of this country. He believed that if the mono poly had been long since abolished, they would he free from the difficulties which never failed to press upon them. He was confirmed in that opinion when he saw the trade of the East Indies prosper under a contrary system. That increasing prosperity had undoubtedly taken place. In the year 1786, for instance, he found that the East Indies exported to the value of 57,0001. of indigo; in the year 1809, to the value of 1,105,0001. ; in the year 1830, to the value of 2.000,0001., and in the year 1840, the value of the indigo they exported amounted to 2,400,000/. Besides, the high price of sugar was to be considered in the effect it wound have on the interests of the public. Under the monopoly and the high price, there was a decline in the consumption, which led to a diminution in the revenue ; and the consequence of that diminution would be that fresh taxation should be imposed upon the people. lie did not think, however, that any thing could justify an increase of taxation which would be caused by a monopoly. wished to call the attention of the House to the rela tion between high prices and a diminished consumption. He would take for that purpose the concluding months of the years 1839 and 1840. In July 1839, the consumption was 10.000 tons, and in July 1840 it was 9,200 tons, showing a deficiency of nearly 1,000 ; the corresponding prices were 40s. in the one case, and 555. in the other. In August 1839, the consumpticn was 12,200 tons, and in August 1840, it was 7,0f10, showing a deficiency of more than 5,000; the corresponding prices were 40s. and 575. In September 1839, the consumption was 9,600 tons, and in September 1840, it was 7,200, showing a deficiency of 2,400 ; the corresponding prices were 38s. and•sls. In November 1839, the consumption was 9,900 tons, and in November 1840, it was 5,800, showing a diminution of morn than 4,000; the corresponding prices were 38e.and 575. In December 1839 the consumption was 8 300 tons, and in 1840 it was 5,700, showing a deficiency of 1,600 ; the corresponding prices were 371. and 535. It was clear from that that the diminution of consumption arose from the increased price. lie had last year presented petitions from the metropolis complaining of the monopoly, and stating that tl:e high prices which it caused led to adulte ration of the article, as well as to a falling cff in the reve nue and an increase of taxation. In those statements he entirely concurred. He did riot believe that the people of this country would be satisfied with the imposition of fresh taxes while the revenue of the country might be in creased by an honest course of commercial policy.— ( Hear, hear.) However they might be met by the argu ment as to how particular interests might be affected, he believed that the general prosperity of the country would be most promoted by a strict adherence to the doctrines of free trade.—(Cheers ) With regard to the argument of the Right Honourable Gentleman, that he had been taken by surprise, he would refer him to the debates which had teken place fifteen years since. la 1825, Mr. lila kison, in bringing in the Mauritius Bill, had stated that whenever the consumption of sugar in this country should equal the production of the West Indies, and verge on exceeding it, that there then would be no legitimate excuse for maintaining the monopoly, In 1838 the then Chan . cellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Spring Rice, on introducing a measure for the equalization of the sugar duties, had quoted the Noble Lord the Member for North Lance \ hire, and the Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Tarnworth to the same effect. How then could the West' India interest complain of surprise ? Year after year for the last fifteen years they had been warned that they were not to look to the continuance of the monopoly.— ( Hear, hear.) Would the Right Hon. Gentleman fix a period at which it would be more convenient for the West India interest that the change should take place then at present ?—( Cheers.) He would do no such thine', I,:t the protection and the monopoly be continued and the convenient time would never come.—(Cheers.) He felt obl:ged to the House for the attention with which they had heard him, and should not have trespassed on them at such great length, had he not felt it his duty, representing as he did a large constituency, to impress upon the House how important it was for the interests of the community that there should be a free com petition.--(Cheers. ) Sir ALEXANDER GRANT had not yet heard of any method by which it could be ascertained that the rum imported from Jisdia was really the produce of the EVEN ING EDITION. as no sub stantive vote had been taken, and therefore tbeydre: not go ie . to a Committee of Ways and Means till that,b, e ,:ol The C HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER " i"'" Ttbel no means of taking any thing but a nominal vote out' se • went intc the Esti ma t es . Th e vo t e was generally taken o n count of ;the Estimates, but if the House thought there2tee.s,„ thing nee' institutional in the Proceeding, he would aPPt,', other the House might suggest. It might be placed in thew' category as John Dee and Richard Roc.—(Laughter• ) Ri g ht Sir R. PEEL thought the explanation given by the m Hon. de adman was so very unsatisfactory, that he thel, it wou be advisable to postpone it for a few nights if the re was no iublic inconvenience resulting front it. vot i e l , r. so l it E h alltß someIES n guisu g gestedriesm ight. be propriety ad o mo, the s fpostpOubinecti Pg . t h e .b. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had D" jectio- a to do so. RAILWAYS. Mr. L AI3OUCHERE moved the second reading of the RpN w ays Bill. Mr. HAWES hoped some postponement would take P c t in order that tl e parties interested should have time to sider its provisions. the tr tbel preppieLA 10 0 fU the Bill , and d ha t d he n r o e c;wbaiseetnioon tepctrinle the au •xt stage, the Committee, for a fortnight, in order its C ol. a neeils might be considered. h bsd el SIBTHORP also wished for some delay , several' amendments to prop ose i n the Committee.lle great ,objection to all gambling speculations of the kind. to Mr. LAI3OUCHERE said he would not ask the Re° go into Committee on the Bill until next Friday week. f the Sir R . PEEL would not oppose the second read in g Bill. I ravelling by railway was not attended wi th so ettb danger a. 4 some seemed to think. By the railroads and which he was concerned—the London and Birmingboth, the Grand Junction—an enormous quantity of traffic wen; ried on, anti 3Jet but few accidents occurred on these iw the Look to the thousands of passengers who passed betw een ee rr extreme ponds of these lines, and how few the accidents, not paratively spoaking. After all. railway travellintereer e eels. secure, as it cmtainly vas the most rapid mode. He tu u a l . l ttM ject to the second reading of the Bill, and lie thought ' l .'l do great seeur.ty of the public would be in the sense wit" t h a t Companies weeld have of its being their interest to dee' er security. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be abled o carry his reamlations. or to Mr. t LABOUCHIRE said that he would end eeT , ° carry his Bill by the support of the Railway Companies ' rectors. In illustration of that he might say that with r; ;;d e to the powers of prosecution given to the Board 0f.. 0 r, under the circumstances mentioned in the Bill o f Jas i 'ors there had been no occasion at any time to bring those . into operation. In every instance which called fu rs do strance with the Companies, the Directors complied e' : l „tie remonstrances, and it had not been necessary in a s'"" stance to have recourse to those powers. ca ller (if Colonel SIBTHORP would suggest to the Cban el sdept the Exchequer an i ncrease o f d u ty on ra ilways, and ° e ste ing some means of p ro t ec ti on f or an opp ressed and unfortu class of persons, th e pos t- masters . The Bill was then ordered to be read a second the e ' committed on next Friday week. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (ENGLANJJ)I„6IIIII.I' , 11 10 csoen L e dr rea di ngoerta ryf Lord MORPETH, orotfhethe in the absence of the Noble Colonies, moved the postponemen 81l for the Registration of Votterek ant tho se " land) to Friday next. DILL' REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) +OO O4 Lord MORPETH announced hi s i n t en tion of r s li Ole the second reading of the Registration of Voters Oreille. from Friday next (the day fixed) to the Monday foll e V i lithe The Court of Exchequer ( Ireland) Bill, and tee Compositions (Ireland) Bill went through Committe e '. %O s Mr. E. J. STANLEY moved for leave to bring fit; We° constitute extra-parochial parts of the forest of 9 ,, t4 4 ",iattf to district for the relief of the poor ; end to enable her +",,,. -7 , L atee• endow a Church at Cinderford, in the said district.- - ..% - )0 , Mr. FOX MAULE broight in the County Co.r: 0 0 4 ., which was read a first time, and ordered to be reel, o biee time on next Friday week. Also th e B an kruptcy D,s'• see was read a first time, and order e d t o b e rea d a secoau "- ,the same day. The other Orders of th e D ay were th en di spo sed 04 j est Ir e adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock to nem.t• ,EAST .URREY ELECTION' CLOSE OF THE POLL. f! CROW. DON, FRIDAY EVENING, EIGHT o''-' l l 3 biS _Th e )I . lowing are the compl e te returns _ day's poll tag : • TWELVE O'CLOCK. Iti C°°° Antrobus. 204 Croydon.. 445 ...... vi Bermondsey 352 ..... • 01 Camberwell Kennington Kingst6n Reigate . Wandsworth 334 ..... • Total 2,480 1, 0 Majority At four o'clock, the final close of the Poll' returns were as follows : A-lc°4‘. Antrobus• - 01 Croydon 479 ...... 0 Bermondsey 378 ...... 05 Camberwell Kennington 423 ...... 161' Kingston Reigate . 360 ..... • 0 Wandsworth 351 ...... 1, 458 Total 2,632 Total majority The official declaration of the poll Wil made on Monday. DAY* ) ,GE—(YESTER- 40 Gibraltar - ••••"' 50 1 1, Leghorn. . .... ••• 0 6 7 Genoa . ....... 0 1 Milan - ....... 41 iVenice ............. • ••••" 401 'Naples... ................ _ Palermo, per oz ........ J?ji ,Lisbon... ...... ....... ••• ; 0 1 Oporto •..-•••'" 0 Rio Janeiro ....... • ...... gi Bahia... ................... ..., . Buenos Ayres .......... ...lei New York, 21 days sig h t 46 Philadelphia ...... •••••,', 0 ,0%; PRICE or sutwort,,,:, 0 : Portugal Gold Coinl, 17 °,, Foreign Gold, bars•• f 0 5 New Doubloons ......0 4 1 INew Dollars ......... ••.. 0 ,Silver is Bars ........ u - Sp MORTALITY in the METROP .g - rol a The following arc the results of :ak Table of l",. o n . fro. in the Metropolis, showing the Number of De s s , thi all Causes Registered, in the week ending Satumi3o. 6th February, 1841." The Table is issued from the 14 of the Registrar-General:.— - V ers o CAISES OT DEATH. Total. g. 0 16 39 '0 Epidemic, Endemie, and . Contagious Diseases l B2 ✓ 10 Diseases of the Brain, Nerves, and Senses 124 ' Diseases of the Lungs, and other Organs of 1 66 Respiration Diseases of the Hea-t and Bloodvessels Diseases of the Stomach, Liver, and other • 60 Organs of Digestion... Diseases of the Kidneys, &e. ... ........ Childbed, Diseases of the Uterus, &e. Diseases of the Joints, Bones, and Muscles Diseases of the Skin, &c Diseases of Uncertain Seat Old Age, er Natural Decay 9l 0! Deaths by Violence, Privation, or Intemperance 2 3 '- Causes not specified 2 , ....,.". Deaths from all causes Average Weekly Deaths Deaths in the Avers/o, l a-- Week. Deaths, 1-#l, Western Districts ..... ... 144 .••••• I ggi/ig... . 16S • 135 190 216 ..... 1 1 2 • 2 0 7 - --- 23 3 ..... ........., .. Total' 926 9" ...... ,10 Col _..„ ":, It is stated that under th e term M etro polis A„ po 1 1 prised the 32 districts herein mentioned. which lri c c i t y O ho City cf London withi n and with ou t th e wa lls, 0° „bit' t", Liberties of Westminster, the out parishes oli e boosi bills of mortality—and the parishes of St. 1118 1 e rsts it St.. Pancras ; Kensington ; Fulham ; flaw '-0°1„ ' S. e' (Chapelry) ; St. Luke, Chelsea ; Paddington ; A f a rr l „ Stoke Newington ; St. Leonard, 13romley ; St . 0 1 how; Camberwell; Greenwich; St. Nichola s 6 . 0 0 0 ' Paul, Pcptford; and Woolwich. The populationrsoifl merated in 1831 was 1,594,890. The weekly iS si bs 1 1638, 1839, 1840, was obtained by dividing the ' • the three years by 166. ............., e ,oe-e General Resister-office. Feb. 11. 1841. - _-- ..- 00 a•••••••••••••• 11 111MMIM• _ _ - ----< Of .------- REGISTER STOVES, 3 It. wide, ` 2 l; 4 jo e t ' e ; ,. o •r o l e e h y , Poles for Window Curtains, ls. 3d. per foot. fte Bd. per inch ; elliptic stoves, 4d. per inch ; reg" te ' r so ) e n r with bright fronts, bright and black bars, bronzed 1,000-0 100 s. ; brass poles for window curtains, 11 inc h , ; fee t Is. 3d. per foot ; 2 i nc h es , I s . ed. ; a 2 i nc h Pa'c'for lrio inches long, with en d s , r i ngs, an d b rac k ets, com Plet e ' e tici ° Catalogues gratis, containing the price of every ironmongery. a Itt eet. RIPPON and BURTON, Wells-street, Oxfor • ~...,,....—..„...—...............,.. . BIRHS. On the 19th of January, at Zan T te, the ISI o lonian Island s, f • Alexander Hamilton Louglinan, Esq.. of a daught er iule, 0 On the 9th inst., at Weybridge, Mrs. J• C• 0. w• -° O daughter. 4 O r. OR the 9th inst., in the Clapham-road, the r oe Bishop, Esq., of a daughter. . O f Jell° On the 10th inst., at the Royal Mint, the lady 0 " _ a , Ommanney-, Esq., of a daughter. 0 On the 10th inst., at Gibson-square, Islington; Mrs. r Bradley, of a son, e on, i f n On the 10th inst., the wife of Mr. Courtenay, sari; 1104 bury-terrace, of a s on . be LaclY On the 11th inst., in Hertford-street, Mayfair, i Greville, of a son and heir. . COURSE OF EXCHAN Amsterdam C F. 12 b Vitt°, at sight go,+terdam .2 U. 12 5i Antverp Harab.argh........M.B l3 10 Altona., l3 101 Paris, 3 days' sight 25 45 Ditto, 3 months 25 65 Marseilles....... .. . ... 25 70 Bourdeaux.... 25. 70 Frankfort on Maine 149 Petersburgh, 3 Us , 37 Berlin Vienna, effec. 11. 3 M lO 2 Trieste, ditto lO 4 Madrid Cadiz Baca 35 Barcelona 35 Seville 35 of e l MARRSD. On the 3d inst., at Portsmcuth, l Eliza, third olacutticyogs, 0 late 13. Mo ss , E sq ., o f D evonport , to 117 r. Henry 11 ' M Holborn. rhotst°l Cray On the 9th in s t ,at North Church. Edwaril hte t u g Schweitzer, Esq., .of 13righton, toAlargaretta, e l..es 1‘02. c .> „ of C. J. Lawson. Esq., of Vale Moscal, North Cral, -- r kt th DIED. 0 1 6 e - pa On the 11th inst., at Great Cumberland-place. •-• ho the lady of Sir Frederic Hamilton, Bart., aged 58 ° „ fi at ' l°- On the 11th of October last, at Chusan, Lieore'- Willoughby Conway, of her 3L - jesty's ship Modeste.,. cepto°' On the sth ins'., at Stroat House, Gloucester, T. -,' l. le Esq., late Captain in the Royal Scotch Greys, ag f e d ' t he ° I On the 9th inst., at East Grinstead, Sussex, Aiar." gr. of Mr Lowcock, Cornhill, aged 63. the I s" On . the 10th inst., George, the third son of de ll, Wilson, of Old Bond-street. g ftja On the 10th inst., Sarah Wilks, sister of Jara e ' . . Esq., M.D., of Great George-street, Westminster. . • _..--1: • --- 0 • --- -- fol/ 14 ' ill London: Printed and Published by MURDO oir odf No. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 1 12 ,', 1841! - . the county of Aliddlesex.-=Saturday,tebruarY 4!" to m the 76, : S •k .4 ro it 4 11, 1 fip' 4' 1 4 1114 ,t 1 14 ,t ` l l