The Sun. — London, England, 1841-05-11 00:00:00

MO7tNINC , EDITION According t the statements of the Right Hon. Gentle man, the President of the Beard of Trade, when bring lam forward I i Rum Bill, the quantity of sugar grown in the East India colonies would increasa very consider ably ; but, even admitting that no increase took place, there would be an ample supply at a price which could no,: be complained of. The House had to choose between cheaper sugar—cheaper by some infinitessimal fraction of a farthing per 1b.,, by grinding down the unhappy slaves on the soil of Cuba and the Brazils, or to extend a fair proportion of protection to their West India colonies. That was the proposition Ministers had ventured to sub mit to a British House of Commons ; but, thank God, there was public spirit and humanity enough in that House to reject such monstrous propositions.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DeaCon Hume, in his remarks upon that subject, said he could not conceive, after the vast expen diture which the British Government had made for the abolition of slavery, that they would ever entertain any question of placing the produce of free labour in Jamaica in competition with the slave-grown sugar of Cuba and the Brazils. He could not for a moment entertain so absurd a proposition as the bringing forward such mea sures as these, under the plea of an encouragement of free trade. He thought the great object of these manu facturers of Lancashire and Sheffield, and other places, was to keep the good markets they had got. Now, the Brazils took. from them 2.600,0001. instead of 5,000,0001. as .had been most erroneously stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, On the other hand, they had the East Indies taking from them five millions of their manufactures, the West Indies taking four millions, and the North American Colonies taking three millions, and the Right Hon. Gentleman would sacrifice all these for the trade of the Brazils. — (Hear, hear.) He denied, even if the proposed measure was passed, that there would be any increase of their trade with the Brazils. That, at all events, was an uncertain increase, while their present markets with their own colo nies was certain and progressive. What was the state of progress of the exports to these places. The increase to the Brazils during the last ten years had been only 8 per cent. ; to the North American Colonies, in the same period, it was 64 per cent—(Hear, hear)—to British India, it was 84 per cent., to the West Indies, it was was 40 per cent. To foreign countries generally it was 35 per cent., and to their own colonies it was 61 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) What was the natural inference ? Why, that while they should endeavour to maintain their markets with foreign countries, they should more especially take care of their trade with their own colo nies. He believed the present was the first time that in that House commercial questions had been made the subject of party warfare.—(Ministerial cheers.) His (Mr. Colquhoun's) side of the House had been charged with being influenced by factious motives, but what he thought was a factious proceeding, was when a Ministry had been ten years in office without ever having brought forward any measures based upon the principles of free trade ; when they found their energies paralysed, when they found themselves unable to carry any measure, when they had only to take up a question to damage and injure • it—at such a time it was in his judgment nothing but faction and absurdity to throw up their caps.in favour of free trade.—(Loud cheers.) On • these grounds he should give his hearty concurrence to the motion of his Noble Friend the Member for Liver pool.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. R. H. GREY had heard the announcement made by her Majesty's , Government with very great pleasure. It was one fraught with the greatest benefit to the manu facturing interests, .which . it was neetlless for him to re saind the House was at present in a most depressed state. —(Loud cheers.) He had hoped that the very itiageitude of these - measures would have secured them the approval of all parties ; that, considering they had a falling revenue, and that it was not proposed to lay , on any additional taxes, that the comforts of the poorer classes would be increased, and that trade would have been improved. Taking all these ad vantages into consideration, he thought it would have eneirel v conciliated public favour. Ile had hoped that eve n. tile monopolists themselves, however careless they might be of the interests of the public at large, would nevertheless have given a tacit consent to the measure. But it now appeared that the interests of party were for the present to prevail—that the interests of the few were r prevail over the many, and the interests of a class ever that of the public at large. He would remind the House of the efforts which the Noble Lord (J. Russell) had for so many vainly made to obtain representatives for Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, and other large towns: but when the Noble Lord brought forward a much more ea - eeping measure of Reform it was carried,' and was at present the law of the land.—(Hear, hear.) He was inclined to hope, therefore, notwithstanding the opposition the present proposition received, that it ' , mould eventually, with many other commercial re forms, receive the sanction of that House.—(Hear.) With respect to the fears entertained relative to the in troduction of foreign sugars, he could tell the House that, during the ten years which elapsed from 1925 to 1835, we were unable to have one pound of Brazilian Auger imported into this country. So much for the idle tetra entertained about East and West India sonar. During the last five years, the price of sugar had been most enormously high ; and, taking the average of duties, the price of Brazil sugar would have been lower by ss. Gd. He must say that the Sugar-laws were more reasonable than the Corn-laws. A great scarcity of ?eager often occurred ; but, however great it might be, it was only reasonable, at all events, when the existing sugar plantations in the East and West Indies could not produce within a large amount of the quantity required, that the people of England ought to be protected against to et scarcity. It was asked how would the Chan sna , r of the Exchequer make up his revenue in Th a t lose ? He answer, that if the East and West Indies eupplied abundance of sugar, the revenue wou ld Lq derived from the great quantity of sugar at the dots* nsf 245. per cwt. Whereas, if a scarcity usplace, the exec e Thancellor of the Exchequer would de rive his revenue eon the foreign sugar at 365. per cwt. Under all circurnseances of the case, lie (Mr. G.) thought that a more reasonable proposition could not be made than that of the Government. It had been said that the poor and labouring portions of the population of this country would be more content with a dinner of herbs than with the meat of a stalled ox. It was very well for those who dined every day on a stalled ox to talk in that way : but would the great masses of the la bouring population .of England submit to their being deprived of what was a necessary of life. The question on the sugar Duties was not one of a penny more or less in the price of llb. of that article ; it was a question of. the absolute denial of a necessary of life. He could not see the necessity of passing a law prohibiting sine-tenths of the people of England from using what Naas now become a necessary of life, and any law tending to raise the price of sugar would have that effect. de would not, on the present occasion, enter into any details respecting the subject of the Corn-laws ; but he wished to make a remark or two on the necessary connection of she two subjects—the Corn-laws and the sugar duties. Ile thought they ought not to be totally separated. The ability to consume luxuries depended not so much on the price of the luxuries as upon the ability of the people to provide themselves with the necessaries of life ; therefore the two questions nnere most intimately connected.' He was gong of an e hlion that there was no other means of benefiting the masses of the people of this country, and at the same time of securing the required revenue of fifty mil lions, en. iess by providing the people with an ampre sup ply of the necessaries of life. All other measures which did not inclisde that within their compass must end in failure and it;aappointment.—(Ministerial cheers.) It nhould be remeinnered that the proportion in which the Labouring classes consumed the necessaries and luxuries of life was something of this kind—a family earning from 10s. to 12s. per week expended about Is. on sugar, tea, and coffee, whilst two-thirds of the entire expense of the family was in _food,. the necessaries of life alone. If that quantity of food were not increased, no individual could ,have a larger l ortion of it, nor could his condition be bet s rod. Suppose tiara were ever so great a demand for la bour he coual ran see how it could be made available for. the purposes of taxation, and for this reason, while the quantity of food was limited, whilst the quantity of .food was insufficient for the wants of the people, every individual would bring his double wages, and try to get ;for them a fair part of that limited quantity ; and tutus time e ffect would. be to increase the price of food, and if ail went for feed, how was the Treasury to be increased ? The income of the landlords would be increased, but the treasury of the State would be very little swelled. An . a mple supply of the necessaries of life could only be se cured to the people, by increasing the surface of the tam f rom which food was . produced. He hoped he avesuld have a future opportunity of going more fully into tin 4 quest i on. There could be no doubt that the taxa tion o f fifty millions a year was very high, butt it should be raised som e way or other. M anu f acturers stave a class of persons who were in a very suffering condi tion, by reason of the competition to which they we re exposed, an d . he (Mr. G.) knew o f no • weans of improving theircondition but some such measure as the Noble Lord had introduced. The only Way of making taxation available to the country—of se curing a revenue, was to extend the base's of our opera tions. That would increase our general commercial .prc(snerity, so wino enable the co untr y to su pport that trhiciu was now a severe burden —the greatly-increased neopulaiion—in a way which would be consistent with the • welfare of the country. Mr. WALTER said, in giving h is vote on the present important quastion, he wished to make a few observa tions. He had voted against that most extraordinary grant of twenty millions sterling for the abolition of West Indian slavery on other grounds, as well as because he thought that sunicient inquiry into the subject had not been made at the time. Considering the degree to which . sugar in t h e mar k et h a d been since that time affected, that sum fell very far short of the sums taken from the pockets of the British people. Between fifteen anei twenty millions more had been expended in attempting to put down the slave-trade, which was at the present time more flourishing than heretofore. It had been calculated also the total sum fawn from the country since the abolition, owing to the assistance on West . India produce, a nd other causes, was Yenta little short of five millions. - After so much ivas .done for our fellow-creatures of a dark complexion in our ,-, (); 011,111 possessions to have them raised to a state of com fort. he asked what had resulted from it to the labouring classes at home, both commercial and agricultural? Was their condition improved ? On the contrary, were they not rendered less capable of obtaining the nee ;cries of life, one of which was sugar ? He (Mr. Walter) wea n' at least hope that a little of that feeling which had been exhibited in favour of the negro would be extended to our own poor. The Government, it appeared, had an id ea that by the sc h eme they proposed, they would lower the price of the avmmodtties, and increase the revenue. He doubted the poneibility of that. In other cases he thought it most deshmble, and he would concur in such ; but he had conversed with most intelligent merchants on the subj( ca who were as anxious as atinisters to re ieve trade from all shaeklas e and he found they had not the slightest confidence in the financial measures proposed, particularly with refer( nee to the diminution of the duties on foreign sugar. It was proposed to lay on no h:gh3r a duty than 12s. per cwt. beyond what was Un posed on sugar from our own colonies. That, he was told, was no protection at all, on account of the greater quantity of saccharine matter produced in foreign coun tries than in our colonies. There were other grounds on which he objected to the proposed scheme. He thought, if the finances of the country had been pro perly managed, there would have been no need of the al terations ; and he was satisfied of the incompetency of those who produced the mischief to remedy it.— (Hear, hear.) Without proposing to alter the Corn-laws. he must confess himself to be favourable to some change in them, although the amount of duty he was disposed to support would depend on what was done with the present Poor-law Bill. A Noble Lord (Darlington) the other night was so kind as to speak in terms of high approbation of a contest in which he (Mr. W.) was personally concerned, and thought that the result of that contest might have influenced Ministers in the course they had adopted. Whether such was the case or not, it did not become him to say ; but of this he was cer tain, that the issue of that election, and the consideration of the principles which decided it, ought to influence Hon. Members on both sides of the House. _ _ Lord F. EGERTON, the commencement of whose observations were not audible in the gallery, was under stood to say, that he had listened to the able speech of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies with that attention with which he always did, and to the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it appeared to him that the subject they introduced was classified by them under the head of " deficiency in the revenue," which they proposed to make up and relieve the consumers of this country by lowering the price of the commodity named. With respect to the first of those he confessed that it was a question that would puzzle a more expert financier than himself to deal with. He would not, therefore, trouble the House with that part of the subject. It was true that the Noble Lord said that there was an alarming and painful deficiency, but that had arisen from causes over which they had no control, but had arisen from causes in which they (the Opposition) had participated as largely as themselves (the Ministers). All the extra expenses which had been incurred was supported by the other side of the House. That was, after all, a mere accusation. When certain emergencies occurred, involving the honour and commercial existence of this country, they (the Opposition) did not oppose measures proposed for their remedy. Canada, they were told, was a subject of expense originating in causes which were brought into existence fifty years ago. He (Lord F. Egerton) thought that some of the discontents and diffi culties originated in the conduct of those from whom the Noble Lord sought his best support. With respect to China, he considered it an open subject for any discus sion that might affect the conduct of Ministers. With respect to the second division of the subject—relief to the consumers of this country—it was a question of higher interest than any other consideration. When the Noble Lord brought the subject before the House, he (Lord F. Egerton) thought that he devoted more energy to the topics than he generally did. The Noble Lord drew a picture of the operative turning away in disappointment and despair at the excessively high price of the commo dity. It was not the business of the Noble Lord to de bate the question as he had debated it—to call the atten tion of the House to the more cheering prospect of the supply of sugar for the next season—but it was his busi ness to show, with his usual ability, the prac tical and appreciable relief that would result from the measure which he proposed.(Hear.) So far as he could calculate, the reduction in the price of sugar, which would follow from the proposed measure, would not amount to more than six-tenths of a farthing in the pound, which would not make the average reduc tion for each individual in the kingdom amount to more than 2id. per year. He did not undervalue that reduc tion, provided the measure by which it was to be effected were not liable to other grave, and as he (Lor F. Eger ton) considered insurmountable objections. The Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, attempted to de prive every Member on that (the Opposition) side of the House, with the exception of the Noble Lord the Mem ber for for North Lancashire, of any right to advocate the cause of the enslaved negroes. Now for his (Lord F. Egerton's) part, he had not, like the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, grown grey in that cause, but he knew no reason why he should be deprived of his right to read the work of Mr. Gurney, and to draw from it his own conclusions. It appeared to him that it had been made out almost to demonstration, that the Noble Lord was now taking a course which, as far as regarded the article under con sideration, would positively give not merely a stimulus to the employment of slaves, but would give a stimules to that worst feature of the case the traffic in slavery in the co lonies, which would not only give a bonus to Cuba itself, that plague spot of the world, the centre and the focus of the trade, but extend that worst of all crimes ever com mitted by man. It was impossible, in his opinion, for those who had paid the least attention to that great sub ject, which it was impossible and which it would be indefensible to overlook, not to see that the proposed measure would aggravate an evil already so great. A great difference of opinion had certainly been expressed in that House on that subject. The Hon. Member for Wigan and the Hon. Member for London, however, had that night treated the question with the seriousness which it deserved, and had expressed their sentiments, founded on philosophical principles of their own, that the cause of humanity to the slave and ultimate suppression of the slave-trade, would be advanced by the measure which the Noble Lord had proposed, by an extension of com mercial intercourse in those commodities which are the production, of that slave-trade. He could not follow those deductions, and he could not assent to those propositions. He should admit, however, that the subject was treated by them with ability, and in that tone which became the discussion of such a question. He was somewhat sur prised on a former occasion to have been compelled to consider that it had been treated in a tone of levity by the Hon. Member for Lambeth—(Hear, hear)—which he (Lord F. Egerton) thought unsuitable to the occasion.. The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had re cently entered into a dissertation on the state of the repre sentation of the metropolitan boroughs, and had uttered some very strong opinions on the results of that portion of the Reform Bill which had given representatives to these boroughs. It was not for him (Lord F. Egerton) to deal out any criticism on that subject, but he should say that the complaint then made by the Noble Lord was at least a strange and anomalous one. The Hon. Member for Lam beth gave it as his opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mewls r for the Tower Hamlets, might perhaps main tain that slavery was in itself sinful, and that it ought not be encouraged ; no very unreasonable proposition cer tainly, and no very extravagant one for the Right Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets to maintain—(Hear, hear)—but the Honourable Member for Lambeth said that •that was a principle which all bigots might appeal to for enforcing their own opi nions. They might call upon the House to pass Acts of uniformity, for the purpose of settling matters of faith and ceremonials ' • and on the same ground the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets might come forward with enactments to en force the suppression of the slave trade. Now it was not necessary for him (Lord F. Egerton) to enter into any defence of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he might be allowed to say that the attempt would be superflous, as he had never beard a vindication more able and more complete than that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself made.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask whether it wa s a false, a fictitious, and spurious humanity which made them shrink and hesitate before they interfered in what he should consider a most critical moment for that great experiment—a moment when they might hope that in the West Indies the throes of parturition were over, and that the time had come when they might bless Providence for the success which had attended their efforts? It was not a want of philanthropy which induced them to pause before adopting a course which might fatally interfere with those results. The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies no doubt was at present actively employed in endeavouring, as far as the resources of diplomacy enabled him, to check, in other quarters of the world, a similar traffic - to that of the African slave-trade. He had no doubt but the Noble Lord, for instance, was using his influence with the Sultan, and that good-humoured old gentleman who governed Egypt, to effect a cessation, or at - least a mitigation, and, ultimately, the extir pation of a system which prevailed in Africa, and across the Atlantic Ocean. They had heard, the other day, from a distinguished public officer who had been employed on the coast of Syria, that, in a conversation with the Pacha, the latter stated that he hated the slave trade, hut that he wished to get time for its abolition—that he could not do these things in a hurry. The example of Eng land was doubtless quoted to him and made its due im pression. But the PaAla was acquainted with the affairs of England, and he would soon be enabled to say, if the Noble Lord's measure were carried by a majority of that House, that though England had emancipated her siteeo at a great national expense, and had thus given a bril liant example to the rest of Europe, that when difficulties overtook her she had, for the sake of a reduction of six tenths of a farthing on the pound of sugar, abandoned the great experiment they had made.—(Hear, hear.) Let them pass that measure, and they would lose that el@ vated station which they held in the Courts of Europe— let them pass that measure, and they would descend from the high ground which they held in Egypt and in Con stantinople—let them pass that measure, and for hu manity and consistency he believed they would do well to go much fart; er. He should say that what he iirei heard from the Hon. Member for London induced him to form conclusions very different from those to which the Hon. Gentleman himself came, for he thought his state ment showed that it would be more humane to allow their slave vessels to issue once more from Liverpool under proper restrictions and with Government insis t' tors, if they willed, and to legitimize the traffic, than to give to it in its present illegal form the encouragement which would be the result of the proposal of her Ma jesty's Ministers. The West Indians too might call upon them, in removing all restrictions., tip remove the restriction imposed upon them of not empliryina. Slave labour. Th e y might tell them that when they vifortrod ! them to compete with Cuba they would be ready to do that they would ha ready to contend with the fertility of the soil of that silstittl, which need only be PAP. while their own term yur of fifty years- -- -‘4 that it 'is ould - renewed after a r f e t n er ew a ed be fair in the first place to place them ssa 0,4 #o! .. i .g Ifooting with their competitors. They had lately collected the rank and the talent of the country in Exeter Hall, and ' had brought the first subject in the realm to head the pha lanx for the purpose of discountenancing the slave trade, and they could not now abandon the cause which they had advocated. They had given the name of the Prince gracefully and properly to that vessel which they had equipped for its mission of mercy— God and the good angels guide her as she goes. For not of conquest greedy or of gain Seeks she distant worlds ; but he should say they would do well to abandon the en terprise if they acceded to the measure then under their consideration. It was for these reasons, thinking as he , , TT' g- r"IsT, L0.N11.014, Tt.Tcyn kV I IMA_ i 1 did, that he could not say that the 'course adopted by the Noble ford'was calculated to confer any `appreciable lief, and that Aliere were no just grounds for expecting the reSults - which he detailed, that he shoul.l vote for the. resolution of his Noble Friend the Member for Liv'er pool.(Hear, hear.) • Mr. LABOUCHERE—I confess, Sir, that if I thought the only question before the House, and the only motives which could influence its decision, were those stated by my Noble Friend—namely, that being agreed at a crisis of great commercial any) financial difficulty on the course which was to be pursued, the only difference of opinion between us was this—whether there were.not special cir cumstances connected with the sugar trade which should exempt it from the operation of principles which we allow to be just and necessary, as applied to other branches of commerce and industry in this counfry:--tsTifirTeadd • believe that was the state of the question at this moment, I should feel, I will not say entirely indifferent, but cer tainly comparatively indifferent, with regard to the deci sion to which the House might come. But it is be cause from various symptoms, and especially from decla rations made in the course of this debate, and even this night—it is because I have heard a Gentleman repre senting other great protecting interests come forward and state that they considered this was a case which was common to them all—that he found there was, on the part of the manufacturing and commercial interests of this country, a growinc , opinion now forcing itself on the attention of the Legislature, that it was necessary without delay to - take measures for an alteration or revision of our commercial and financial system generally,—l say, when I see the advocates of these important interests saying they will admit of no compromise—that they will hear of no concession —(Hear, hear)—that they will oppose a relaxation in the sugar duties, not from any refined spe culation with regard to its effects on slavery or the slave trade, but because they consider that in defend ing the sugar duties they are defending their own system of monopoly and exclusion,—when I see those things, I confess that I do look with the utmost anxiety to the course which the House may pursue upon the present occasion. When I consider the importance of the question, I do not desire to make it a matter for party calculation ; nor shall I enter into those allega tions bandied from one side of the House to the other. At the same time there have been accusations brought against the party to which I belong, which I feel it my duty to notice. We have been told that the Whigs are always talking about free trade, but, somehow or other, it happens that when they are in office, free trade mea sures are never carried ; while, on the contrary, when the Tories are in office, if they bring forward any mea sures of a liberal nature with regard to commercial po licy, they succeed in carrying those measures, I con sider that they admit of a very easy solution.—(Hear.) Sir, I have been long enough in this House to remember Mr. Huskisson's exertions on the subject, and I am sure that no one will deny my representation of the state of things at that time. I remember Mr. Huskisson as a Tory Minister bringing forward those great views and sagacious measures, which must ever endear his name and memory. to the whole of his country. I remember him bringing them forward with the sullen and reluctant acquiescence of the great body of his own party.—(Ministeral cheering.) I remember that he received the honest, warm, and cordial support of his political opponents. — (Loud cheers.) They did not raise petty cavils upon his great measures ; they knew what a matter of difficulty any alteration in our commercial policy is ; they knew that on such a subject nothing could be more unworthy than to cavil upon details; and although there were many points on which they did not think that he altogether carried out their principles into - full effect, they felt that it was but just, that it was but their duty, to that statesman who had the courage to look into the face of those great protective interests in this country, when he believed that the privileges they en joyed would bring nothing but ruin into the country, to give him their cordial and disinterested support. — (Cheers.) I think this difference of conduct between the two parties may account for that which was made matter of taunt and accusation against us.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Colquhoun) told us to-night that we had brought no measure of improved commercial policy of any consequence before the Housa during the ten years we have been in office. Sir, I re membr, and some Hon. Gentlemen opposite must re member, the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire (Lord Stanley) and the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) must re member, that a great and important measure of com mercial policy was brought forward by the Government, I allude of course to the Timber Duties.—(Cheers.) The measure then brought forward closely resembled the measure now brought forward by the Government. It is my belief that if that measure had been carried, then the greatest benefit would have resulted to the country. —(Hear, and cheers.) But unfortunately that was not the case. It was quite true that the Right Hon. Mem ber for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) and the gentlemen who then acted with him, did not on principle oppose that measure, but they used that convenient plea which is always employed by those who do not wish to give direct opposition to a measure, but still wish to defeat it, that they were not satisfied without inquiry, and because it was not sent to a Committee up stairs, the measure was refused.—(Cheers.) I think this refusal of the first great measure of trade brought forward by the Whig Government was not very encouraging to them to persist in a similar course—(Hear, hear)—and feeling, as every Government ought to do, that unless the case was an urgent one, and the interests' of the country generally were suffering from a want of 'prOper alteration, that it was no. slight evil to bring forward a measure of this kind unless it were brought to a successful issue.(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) I say that under these circumstances nothing would have justi fied the Government in doing so, except their common sense of the state of the country was such, that it was absolutely necessary that such a measure should be passed by the Legislature, and that otherwise the most serious consequences must ensue to the commerce of the country. I believed that it had reached that state — (Cheers)—and I repeat what I said before, that I am a strong party man. I wish to see therparty with whom I have always acted, maintained in power, but I declare that such is my solemn conviction of the absolute neces sity in the present state of trade and manufactures,. and in the public feeling of the country, that we should in troduce a thorough and searching reform into our com mercial system, that I should that I should think that the happiest day of my life when. I saw these principles fairly acted upon by those to whom I have always been politically opposed, if they o:cupied the seat of pow er and I trust that I should give them as cordial, sincere, and .honest support as I now give to the measure of those to whom I am both personally and politically attached. —(Cheers.) But, perhaps, I am a little wandering from the subject matter before the House. Sir, I will com mence by endeavouring to relieve the Government, and myself in particular, from the accusations which have been brought against us in the course of this debate by several gentlemen, and by which it has been attempted to raise a prejudice against the measure before the House. It has been stated that the Government have dealt unfairly by the great interests involved in this question, that they have been taken by surprise, and that our conduct had led them to assume that no alteration would be made in the sugar duties. This. I think, is a fair statement of the accusation against us, and the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hogg), who is an East In dia Director, quoted a speech I made on the sugar duties last year, as a proof of my inconsistency. I think I have a right to complain of the manner in which he did so, for a more garbled account of a speech I never heard. The Right Hon. Gentleman, - the Member for Tamworth, also alluded to the speech, and did me the justice to say, that in his opinion there was nothing in the speech to preclude me from the course I have felt it my duty to take on the present occasion.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, I can state other facts to show the House that at any rate these interests have not been taken by sur prise. Why, the Right Hon Gentleman (Mr. Goul burn) whom I saw cheering these sentiments last night, presented fifteen petitions from Jamaica and other %Vest India colonies, in which the petitioners stated that they were abundantly satisfied that the Government were about to alter the sugar dutieS. It struck me as extra ordinary, that these petitions should have been forth coming on the present occasion ; but it appears they had been lying in the drawer of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and were brought forth to be discharged on the present occasion: I must also say, that, in the course of the present year, I received many intimations from gentle men connected with the West Indian interest, and they almost universally . asked if I would not pledge myself that the sugar duties should not be altered in the preL sent Session. My answer was, that I could give no pledge of the sort, and that the - Gtn'erninunt would - deal - with the question as they should think necessary. But there was one declaration made before the last two years of so much importance, that I will venture to read it to the House, and I will put it to any fair man whether it is not of itself a complete exposition of the views and sentiments of her Majesty's Government. This bve cc b wt; delivered in the House of Commons in 1839 by Mr. Poutett Thomson, then President of the Board of Trade. He said that " he admitted that it was a matter of great importance, and one which would be forced on the attention of the country in a short period. In the Arst place, this was a matter which would force itself on the attention of the Government, as connected with the Treaty of Brazil. The present Treaty was of a tempo rary character, wad would expire in 1842 ; and if we en tered into fresh relations with that important State, this was a Subject which must be considered, 'The exports to that country were upwards of 4,000,0001., and weio the most iffiportant, with the excep tion of the Unit e d States. The produce a Brazil was confined to sugar and coffee, and when they c a me gie period at which the treaty was about to expire, this suh3 66l 1/12.q force itself on the at :. tenticn of th e House. The other imaich of the subject nr and the Legislature , if not ha l was also a m a tt er o f deep importance — namely , t 46 short soivly a colonial sugar. - It was importan t t o look at this question, 119 was satisfied it must be f orced on the at tention of the thsvesuthe wants of th e peop l e o f ti i i4 country at a n y rate b y t h e nt treaty of Brazil, an d h e truste d it %walla i)V &Ws!' faire and fully treated, and i n a way which a matter of so Mtic portance deserved, when it came for th e c o ne si4ci,-4.10 of the House."—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I think, .with that 4 , 47l:jj.stent reserve it - 1- zrve on matters relating to the Government shont s i is impor.ant changes' in trade, it is scarc el y to have given a more full notice than mem b ers o f t h e COvZ•insus4 ( different times have givm to the House on the present tOkt.—(Cheers.) 'Sir, I certainly could have thought nlyself . aistUst Fplieyed from the necessity of arguing the propriety of a chauge , itl tie simar duties with refer e n ce to the interests of t h e consimr 4itd the It appears to me so obvious that on all gener4l ps-m(4ples a differential duty of 50 per cent. ad valorem on such an article as sugar is a state of things so unsound, and that the evils which must ensue are aln ost so inevitable, that must be wasting the time of the House m arguing ii.:l l a ProPetwiticat that is al mos t self-evident.—(Cheers.) But, Gentlemen, tho admitting that if they tneFel.) took the question with' - seaa,a4 . the rev. flier no strong case could be made out against tiia alteaatoi, yet think they can ariive at a different conclusion on the whole question. e have.been told that • t sugar is not on: surtiog on.whielis".:tht: Consumption depends very nicely sualhe price.; that it is rather an article of . luxury, not onesof those necessaries on which the consumption de pends Mitch on the price. I observe that in the House of Coinmons in 1829, when the question of the sugar duties was brought before the House of Commons by Mr. Huskisson and Sir G. Clerk, much discussion took place on that point, and the Hon. Member for Cams' bridge (Mr. Gisborne) mentioned sugar as not of the Class of articles of that description. But I confess I think the argument Mr. Huskisson then employed was a very proper one to disprove the position of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and I must say, also, from subsequent expe rience of the consumption of sugar in this country, that there is no article on which a reduction of price-is -more likelyttriircithi& an iticre:tise of consumption, and conse quently of revenue. lam aware that details on this sub ject are always dry ; but, at the same time, it is difficult to argue these matters without reference to statistics, though I assure the House I will do so as sparingly as possible. I hold in my hand calculations of gentlemen in the Statis tical Department of the Board of Trade, which they have made on the following principle :—They have given me the average price of sugar in the London Gazette for a series of years, the quantity imported in those ye srs, and the average consumption of each individual in the United Kingdom during the same time. The quantity will not be found to agree with the statements of the officers of the Customs, because it is calculated on a somewhat different principle. In the first place ' the error is avoided which affects the calculations of the Customs in all the first years, owisrg to the erroneous manner of calculcating the bounty on the sugar ex ported ; it also includes molasses converted into sugar, and all saccharine matter introduced into this country. I find that in 1830 the quantity of tons imported was 213,000, and that the price of sugar—(my object is to show the House how the consumption is affected by the price)—. was 25s,the quantity consumed per head in the United King dom being 19.941b5. ; that in 1831 the price was 235. ad.. average consumption per head 20.111b5. ; in 1832, price 28s. Bd. consumption 19 lbs. ; in 1833, price 295. con sumption 17.991b5. ; in 1834, price 295. 2:}d., consump tion, 18•311bs. ; in 1835 (a year which forms a re markable exception to the others), price 335. 94-d. con sumption 19.211b5. I beg the House to renp,rk the consequence of this consumption. The year 1835 was a year of remarkably cheap bread.—(Cheers.) I quite allow that the price of bread in this country is the regulating cause of every article of general consump tion, but I think it important, at the same time, to put the sugar trade on a proper footing, and to put the corn trade on a proper footing at the same time.—(Cheers.) I would also add that.* year 1825 was a year of great improvement and a year of great export, and that the working classes were well off. In 1836 the price of sugar rose to 40s. 9d. and the consumption fell to 16.58 ; in 1837 the price was 345. 5d., the con sumption was 18.38 ; in 1838 the price was 335. 7d., the consumption 18.42 ; in 1839 the price was 375. 41(1., the consumption 17.16.; in 1840 the price was higher than it had ever been, it having risen to 48s. Vid., and the con sumption of sugar per head fell in the United Kingdom to 15.28 per head.—(Cheers.) So, if we compare the first year of the series with the last, we shall find the consumption of sugar per head throughout the United Kingdom had fallen nearly one-fourth.—(Cheers.) When you come to consider that this diminished consumption does not affect the higher classes in any considerable degree, but falls upon the poorer classes, it is impossible not to conceive what privations they must have under gone during this period of low consumption. I remember that in the year 1829 Mr. Huskisson said, when speak ing of sugar as it then was, that two-thirds of the poor consumers of coffee drank it without any sugar at all ; yet when he made that decla ration, the price of sugar was lower than it is at this moment ; therefore I apprehend that by this reduction the provision of this class must be considerably in creased. I feel, really, that this is not a part of the subject with which it is necessary to detain the House at any length ; I think we may defer nice calculations with regard to the degree of interest which the consumers have in the reduction of sugar, and as to the amount of revenue we may . depend on being derived from it. I shall only say with regard to the amount of revenue, that I am satisfied that if we are allowed to go into Com mittee on this resolution—that place where alone a sub ject of this description can only be discussed with advans tape—l am sure my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of Exchequer, will have no difficulty in convincing the House that his calculation, so far from being san guine or extrava g ant, is a very moderate one indeed.— (Hear, hear.) I have consulted those persons whose long experience enables them to give an opinion on the subject, and on whom, not only the present, but former Governments, have been accustomed to rely for calculations of this de scription ; I have not found one of them who was not of the opinion, as far as this question affected the revenue, that the revenue which we anticipate may be safely expected. I pass on without entering on the question whether the revenue is received in the shape of a duty on British sugar or foreign sugar. I admit the difficulty of seeing exactly what will be the course of the sugar trade in the next year.—(Hear.) A great deal is talked about the prospective supply we may have from different ports of our colonial possessions next year. I have attempted to inform myself on that part of the subject, but I re ceived from the parties best able to speak upon it such various and contradictory statements that it is clearly im possible to pronounce a decided opinion about it. The first opinion I find in a petition presented to the House by the Bight Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth, from planters, merchants, and others in London, ' interested in the British colonies. I find their state ment is—Stock in hand, 35,000 tons ; in the West Indies, 115,000 tons ; in the Mauritius, 35,000 tons ; and in the East Indies, 62,000 tons. These parties are undoubtedly competent to form an opinion ; but the other day the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool called on me with a deputation from the Bengal merchants and West India proprietors connected with the sugar trade in the town of Liverpool, and they made a statement of the possible expectations for the following year which I re quested them to put in writing, which I find varies in a very extraordinary manner from the statement made by the merchants and planters in London, They agree as to the stock in hand, which is represented by all at 35,000 tons. They agree also as to the 28,000 from the West Indies. But when they come to the Mauritius, I find that the gentlemen from Liverpool adopt an estimate of 10,000 higher than the London de putation.(Hear, hear.) They also estimate the quan tity to be expected from the East Indies at 70,000 tons ; whereas the London gentlemen calculate on a supply of only 62,000.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, when I find such va riance amongst those gentlemen, I must have some further grounds before I can give full credit to either statement. —(Hear, hear.) lam quite willing to admit this gene ral fact, that I have no doubt in the world that the sup plies coming from the East Indies may be greatly increased.— (Cheers from the Opposition benches.) But I beg the House to consider, in reference to this part of the subject—that .it is f importance that we should now revise our sugar duties, and put them upon a staple and sound footing, upon the permanence of which the country can trust.—(Hear, hear.) If there were no other reason for this it would be sufficient to induce me to that determination, when I see the manner n which capital, attracted by the extravagant prices of the last year, is making to the East Indies.—(Cheers.) Sir, I am satisfied that such a state of things can only lead to the worst results.—(Hear, hear.) I beg the House to recollect what is the nature of the sugar slip ply in India.(Much noise in the House and cries of Order, order, Bar, bar.") It should be considered, Sir, that India is a great sugar consuming country. — (Cries of "Hear, hear, hear,") They only send to us what they cannot use themselves, except when they. are : -attracted bp our high prices. —(Hear,) It is not so with the West Indians, who first send us all they produce.—(Hear.) India is not a source of supply upon which we can depend except upon a calculation of high prices.—(Heas,) Sir, if we desire to deal with this sub ject as a question of ti'adp we shall find that for the benefit of the colonies and of our esstrinuiree, as well as for that of the consumer, the best course is to put it upon a sound footing—to give the colonies such a pro tection as the case may require, but not to allure them on by a monopoly, which could never be for the advantage of the sugar trade or any other trade.. I do not see any reason why the prin ciples which are sound in respect to every other trade should not be equally so in reference to the sugar trade. —(Hear.) Sir, I am now excluding all considerations of slavery and the slave-trade---(Cheers from the Oppo sition)—and I only urge this as a financial and commer cial question—and I do not think .that any reasonable man, - necustomed to consider these subjects, will refuse to apply to the sugar trade the same principles which are found to bet ttp;licable to all other trades. We should give the colonies a fair protection fpr their sugar trade, but not a monopoly, which could be tieithey Pod for them nor for us.—(Cheers, and cries of " Order, order," " Bar, bar.") I will now, Sir, come to that which has barn mainly relied on by Gentlemen opposite, in respect to this proposition of her Majesty's Ministers—l mean the question of slavery and the SlST9sstntle• — (Cheers.) Sir, I do not stand here to make light of those objections. My lion. and Learned Friend the Member for the 'rower Hamlets has only repeated the arguments which him hi Use covlusions to which he has arrived, I sin cerely respect to,(1 a ppp g ige his motives.—(lronical cheers from the Tories.) But 14k iii1434 3 1f lP insider the grounds on which the question now comes before the House. Sir, the more the grounds on which he draws tb,o distinction in this case come to be considered, the less ' solid man ai - 41;$tarltial they appear.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) „ I , guss i s a potv t 9 this, that if we admit the sugar of Brazil, we should he encouraging the a tivation of sugar by slaves—that we should be encouraging the slave-trade, and especially' the importation of slaves We export a very lay itves) livazi! ; --(llear, hear.) Now, Sir , I a sk the Ilous cons!der synth is sl s s gffer,t, of the systeM now pursued? to Brazil. How ar e those goods paid for ?—(Cheers.) They are paid f or i n t h e on ly thing Brazil has got to pay us in—the produ ce o f s l ave -l a bour, and especiaby sugar. —(E.Shevrt6 It is quite true that we do not brin g it British manuihoßres• ge directly to Ertglaall ho w i sometl , Rut we bring it here in large quantities to be refined as taken lA4 to other parts of the world. Every one who knows any thing of the trade with Brazil, must know in what ivisy iiihintss the trade-is crippl e d . —(H ear .) It is gradually dscreas hlg, a 144 " 41 ' , ?. system be no t altered, it will rapidly dwindle to n .ss-(1 ea l. But we do not the less en -- tradesin'thelit&StStiiite.--(pheers and icounter fcheers.) W e d o no t the less, for every' 154- o courage their slave British goods receives payment in the produce of slave l '! .1- " 1- * -- (el , fets.) This is not the first time the qttess t fin 43.4 ieSll thus argq4 in the oR ;e of Coons, .1t wg s so - afglWd p 104 by 'l‘l7 Grant (now L or d Gl o n e l g ), who brought fo-Ird Commons, l ff milar measure, with the consent of his colloagues, ira'ud i tl! f lliortit Hon. Gentleman opposi te, the Memlxi forTamworth, and the Right Bon: Meniber for CainbridL e, who was then r itincellor of the Eichequers The iatos irc'ntlettlallcertdittly said that he differed from his Rio.t 4114 :Itie 4 of bat not upon the 4 h e question !P4l principle of the measure.—(Cheers.) -I do not mean to' say that the eircuat,itances are precisely the same. — (Cheers.) I admit That ave had not than passed the measure of emancipation(Vehement cheering from the Tories;) There is this analogy, however, in the two cases, that th 3 slave-trade was then rife in Cuba and in Brazil.—(Ch:?-ers.) Did not the West Indians then come forward to say, you are * going to expose us to' the competition of those who have unrestricted supplies of slaves, and you.will not allow us to import for ourselves.—(The Right Hon. Gentleman, then read ex tracts from the Speeches 'of Mr. Grant and Mr. Goul burn on that occasion (1829), to : Show that their views Were the same as those which he had endeavoured to en force.) I do not propose that we ,should. at. all relax in 4;ointexerticrns - td • put doivri the Slave trade.—(Cheers and cries of " Oh, oh.") But the time at which this impor tant question of our commercial relations with Brazil must be settled seems to me to have arrived. I heard with great surprise, Gentlemen who are connected with trade and manufactures, speak of our foreign trade as unimportant, when compared with our home consump tion of manufactures-{Hear, hear)—whereas in the year 1839, the date of the last returns, the amount of our home trade was only 16,700,0001., whilst our foreign trade amounted to 24,640,0001.—(Hear.) Those who are concerned in our foreign trade view with extreme alarm the expiration of our commercial treaty with Brazil. It is true that although the Brazilians sup pose that the treaty will expire in 1842, we are convinced that we are justified in insisting upon its being enforced up to 1845. But the people of Brazil feel much irritation with us on account of the restrictions we impose upon their trade with this country, and considering the vast importance of their trade to us, and the opening which it affords for an extended trade with all the interior of the vast and rich continent of South America, I think it most desirable that we should take this opportunity of conciliating 'their good feelings, and preparing to renew the treaty upom amicable terms.—(Hear, hear.) There is another point of view in which I should wish the House to consider this question. If we apply this principle to sugar, why should we not apply it to other articles the produce of slave labour, and why should we not apply it to coffee ? By the treaty with Brazils, we are bound to take the produce on the same footing as we take the produce of the most favoured nation. Sugar is one of their most staple articles of produce, but coffee is also one of their staple articles. Now, how do we treat with regard to coffee, we keep to the words of the treaty, but how do we keep it in fact ? We make the fact of coffee having touched at the Cape of Good Hope, a reason for lessening the duty on that article. Java coffee can touch at the Cape with little or no incon venience, while coffee from Rio Janeiro and the Brazils would have to go half round the world to touch at the Cape of Good Hope. The consequence is, that while keepingto the strict letter of the treaty ; we, in fact, admit coffee, the produce of Java, at a lower duty than coffee the produce of the Brazils and Rio Janiero, thus keeping to the letter but eluding the spirit of that treaty. —(Cheers.) This furnished Brazils undoubtedly with a just cause of complaint. Now if we proposed to redress this evil—if we proposed to allow Brazils to import her coffee directly into this country, instead of forcing her to introduce it in a circuitous manner, would it be fair to refuse it on the ground that we should be thereby giving a stimulus to slave labour, by allowing that coffee to be brought into the English market ? Are you prepared to say that for the purpose of putting down the slave trade, you will refuse to export your manufactures to any country in which slave labour is employed, for this you must do if you are consistent ? Can you act in this man lier, .restricting the commerce of this great country?—. (Cheers.) I do not believe there can be found any man mad enough or rash enough to support such a proposition. There is another point of view in which we are bound to consider this ques tion. I am of opinion that it is our bounden duty to use every practicable means in our power, and to exert every influence we possess. to at tempt the suppression of the slave trade.—(Cheers.) But I would ask the House to consider if we are likely to obtain that object by refusing to hold all commercial intercourse with slave-holding nations ; or if we are not more likely to obtain it by cultivating commercial rela tions with those countries, by encouraging Englishmen, with English habits and English feelings, to go out and settle among them, diffusing among them that intelligence and that good feeling which in variably is the consequence of Englishmen settling among any nations ? Are we not more likely to obtain our ob ject by these means than by declaring we will hold no intercourse with them ? Her Majesty's Government has been actuated by them on a very recent occasion, and believing them to be just has acted on them accord ingly.—(Cheers.) With the republic of the Texas we have recently concluded a commercial treaty. We thought it right to do so. We were satisfied that it was our duty to the country to do so. But did we, in pur suing that course, lose sight of the great cause which we always have in view—the suppression of the slave trade ? No such thing. My Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs expressed his willingness to sign the commercial treaty which they wanted, but lie said to them—" At the same time that I sign the com mercial treaty you must enter into another treaty by which you bind yourselves ' to exercise that which has always been found to be the most effectual means for the suppression of the slave trade—the right of search." —(Cheers.) The granting of the right of search of all vessels suspected of carrying slaves was made the sine qua non to the signing the commercial treaty. —(Loud cheers) This I consider is a much more effec tual method of suppressing the slave trade than if we were to cripple our commerce , by refusing all commer cial intercourse with slave-holding States. If this mea sure were to be considered by itself, Sir, if it were proposed as an unconnected isolated measure, I could then understand how the proposal for an alteration in the sugar duties might lead other nations to suppose that we did not now stand upon that high ground with respect to the slave trade which we had hitherto used to occupy, That is one reason which justifies the Govern ment in having suffered this question of the sugar duties to remain so long. If it had not been for the purpose of giving a breathing time to the West Indians, and of setting other countries see that we were not to be in duced o relax in the great xperiment—the carrying out of the emancipation tile Government of this country would have been most culpable in not proposing these alterations long before.—(Hear, hear,) But it must be considered in a very different light, when this proposition is only considered as part of a great whole.—(Loud cheers.) Foreign countries must now see that these alterations,. do not refer to sugar alone but that, having on general grounds become convinced' of the necessity of a reform of our commercial tariff, it would be absurd indeed it we were to except sugar from those alterations. That alone is a sufficient excuse for those who last year thought that it was not right to en tertain the question as an isolated proposition, but now as a part of a great whole will be perfectly justified in voting in favour of the measure, If the Uwe were called upon to decide this question en its evert merits only, if there were no other questions connected with it, I will not affect to deny that I should not feel the anxiety on the subject which I now feel ; but it is be cause I cannot doubt that the decision will be on a far greater and more important subject, that I reel an anxiety nn the snbjeet beynr.4 what language e 4,4 ea press.—(Cheers.) I am not disposed to hold the lan guage of despondency about the future, because I appre ciate as highly as any man the great national advantages which this country possesses. I know that in her situa tion, in her great mineral wealth, fi'l4 Aer re spects, she posses*s gFeat arid itopii*.ot advantages over other countries, and I helieve tliat most of all does she possess an item-lonia& advantage--one of more import ance than all the others, in the irultßit4lllo P ~Qf her people.—(Loud cheers.) An energy which maye exhibited as patriotically and as honourably at the loo m or by the pippoiso Incliptey, es on The field of battle, by SOt or by land,--(Good cheers) But I feel it would not 1)4 wise or humane to t4N that energy too far.—(Hear, hear, and %beers.) I am satisfied that we are now come to one of those re volutions in commerce, to one of those crises in the manu facturing and commercial affairs of the mintry, which, according to the cotirSa iVe Plirslte t must he prilduc tive of great good or of *Ocilla:111e eyil,--,-.(9heer§,) At a former crisis of ails nature Mr, fillSkiSSon was lit ppily for the country, In the councils of the Crown. He found a state of things existing requiring the greatest and most extensive alterations. He proposed them and car ried them, notwithstanding the opposition of rlrtjel i i,lar interests, for he sllll79rtel groat leading' statesmen of the ounte , who felt that the interests of the country weFe at stake, -and refusedga lend themselves to any mere temporary party purposes. And those great measures were carried notwithstanding the opposition which measures of that kind always meet with from in terested parties. Great revolutions, commercial and political, have taken place since that period, and I am satisfied that another of those importantlitiA again arrived. f am satisfied that we have no chtnceleft, ex cept to adopt those large alterations which have been 'propOsed, or to suffer the greatest, the most incalculable, arid, perhaps, the most irremediable mischief's.— (Cheers) I should be going into too wide a flofd if I were now ts:l tcP j 1944 iH5.L414.5, hut sure that Hon. Gentlemen will admit that some large and extensive change is desirable, and is most important to maintain the commerce of, our country. Our- manufactures are leaving our shores. They are in a state of transition—they meet with foreign rivals with who they Ttr'every sear 1.-5 tO compete. The necessityliarihese important .- alterations is so s .rongly felt by the Government that if the House agrees !o this motion it will be my duty to ,call the atten tion of the House to many of these important measures, I beg the Honse to observe that it is not po ss ibl e to pro pose any measure this kind without encOinitering. .some protecting interest.—(Hear, hear.) I have always 'held the opinion that it is our duty to make such changes, with due consideration to existing interests, but, at the same time, it is quite impossihle to make them thoLoiighly wit hoC encountering 4pposition. Per ' .ions point to other great monopolists, other great pro tecting interests, and they ask, " Why are -we to be flat . l.:! the scapegoats ?" I have often heard the Right g9n. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth, in discuss ing,the Corn-hews,t!iit kinq bf. amtpilont., 4 say, thei•eli>l4, that t( 14 to Mike any great ,!hange. without rneetin. , withwhit opposition, and that we must, in all such cases, look to what is required by the interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) I never re member a period when there existed in the mercantile and manufacturing community of this country so general an impression this s l ihject—an impression which is not me rOy lipngl f . I ).4ty illlrposeS;' or by party Men.--,:(1 - fear l . hear;) gon : gentleAlen opposite flatter themselves With the delnsion that the measures - brought forward by the Cloyernnlertt were, influene2d by rolitiez ! i n!*:sqty z ) -- i pliy m the state of Pqr•lieas Why, th, - . 'joy - einent Irlqt 10 . the me arts of collecting the Whigs and the Radicals in the largo mercantile town:4. The *hole natare 'of the agitation, if it may be so called, is of a totally . different character, ; 'it. 'has not been con ducted in the manner in Which part , interests are ob tained and promoted ; it has been tar more deep and heartfelt. On former occasions, I have always observed that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for ,Tam i 1 1 wortn, always . referred to the amount_ or 91ir .Turts.- 1 He, too, alwayS' said; "It . cannot be . true that your ma ' nufacturea . are - so: Much distressed ; it cannot be true that your commerce.is in such an embarrassed condition, while yout exports continue to increase." I say, with great regret, that that argument will fail the Right Ho. nourable Gentleman on the present occasion. Our exports, during the last year, have very Icon siderably diminished, and if you do , not re ' lieve - the pressure which weighs 1 upon:_ the springs of the country there will be a yet greater' dimi nution. Comparing the whole of our exports, in 1840 and 1841, there has, been a falling off of abont . a million and a half. Earthenware has fallen froin 721,000/. to 574,000/. ; hardware and cutlery from 1,800,000/. to 1,300,000/. There is one manufacture to which I cannot help adverting for a moment, which I find considerably increased—it is the manufacture of refined sugar.— (Hear, hear.) Now I can understand, Gentlemen, drawing a distinction between cotton and coffee, and ' other articles of that kind, and sugar ; but how you are to draw a distinction between sugar consumed in this country, and sugar which you prepare for the consump tion of other countries, I confess is to me quite unintel ligible.—(Hear, hear.) Now, the refining of sugar ap pears to have been one of the most flourishing branches of our trade. It increased from 299,000/. in 1840, to 444,0001. in 1841. This leads me to a point which I think extremely deserving the attention of the House in considering this question. It has been saidelrea,dy, and I believe with perfect truth, that by putting sugars upon an equal footing, you make England an entrepot for all the countries in the world. That was the opinion expressed by Mr. Huskisson in 1829, an opinion to which he attached the greatest importance. If you keep your prices steady and fixed instead of oscillat ing, you will make England the great market for all the sugars in the world. There is one point to which, before I sit down, I am anxious for a moment to allude. I have stated my belief that there never was a period in which the merchants, and manufacturers of this country, felt greater apprehensions, or expressed those apprehen sions more distinctly to the House. But there was one remarkable petition addressed by the merchants of London upon this subject to the House. I heard with some asto nishment the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth, the other night, in presenting a counter peti tion against the plan of her Majesty's Government and especially against the proposed alteration in the sugar and timber duties, state that. many of the most considerable merchants who .had signed the petition which I presented in favour of free trade had also signed the petition which he,presented. Now, Sir, I really feel it my duty to call the attention of the House to what that petition was. [The Hon. Member then read the petition first presented, which was a petition generally in favour of free trade, and concluded by pray ing that the House would be pleased to make such alterations in the differential duties as would be fair to the consumer and promote the general welfare of the country,] With what consistency can those who have thus stated their opinion, oppose the measures of the Government ?—(Hear, hear.) We petition in favour of free trade generally, we petition for a reduction of the import duties, but we except sugar.—(Hear.) I must say that it does appear to me so extravagant a proposi tion that the House cannot for a moment entertain it. There is only one way of accounting for it, that mer chants wish for free trade except in colonial produce— that agriculturists are willin g to have free trade except in the article of corn.—(Hear, hear.) That is a very com mon sentiment in all classes of the corninunity,—alear.) This is a subject with which you must deal as a whole— it is not one which you can attempt to deal with in a piecemeal manner. Sir, upon these grounds I hope the Rouse will be guided by the recommendations of the most important petitions to which I have alluded. One word more, and I have done, Sit', I believe that the country is in that situation that delay will be dan gerous.—(Cheers.) It is impossible to examine more closely into the subject—it embraces such a variety of subject; that I will not now attempt to enter into them, but I think I am - entitled to assert that the prevalent sense of the whole manufacturing population of the country is that this must be done, and speedily if the country is to prosper. There is still one light in which we must look at this question, viz,, qs A onestien of finance.—(Cheers.) The necessity , of meeting the expen diture of the eonntry is now pressing, and to meet it with a prudent alteration of the commercial system is, in my opinion, absolutely necessary. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth said, a short time ago, that nothing could be more unworthy of a Government, or more fatal to the country, than in time of peace to add to the permanent debt of the country. In that I perfectly agiee ; but if you will not take that course, then will you have recourse to direct taxation. Sir, I cannot but think that that would be a most serious course to take Consider ing as I have done that money is wanted, and 1 1 40411 g it can be raised, not by adding to the burdens a the people but by relieving them from taxation, I trust that the lions, will agree to the proposition now made. I have that confidence in the integrity and spirit of the people of England that I am sure they would never refuse to subt mit to any taxation if it was shown to be necessary to maintain the institutions or the character of the conntry ; but of this I am certain that if it can be shown that the money can be raised by other means they will not sub mit cheerfully to it, and the means we propose will not only not press upon them but rclieve them fom taxa tion, Sir, this question is not now confined to political economists—there is now a spirit of inquiry abroad that will not be satisfied. Come to what decision the House may upon this sulAjeet, depend upon it the 'people will not let the matter rest. For myself, I shall only say that I feel that it is the duty of the Government, placed as they are with the necessity of providing additional finfieces, and finding those views entertained by the great commercial classes of the country, they at once adopted them. Completely satisfied that these opinions are founded in justice and reason, I think the Government would - have been Wain. ing in their duty to the House and tlia country, had they not brought thella f01 , W414,-- ,-, -(Oheers.) I' see the Hon, IlarclueqSif J. Graham) smiling. He is one of the staunchest friends of protection generally, and of protection to the agricultural interest in particular, but I will venture to predict that if he should shortly become a Minhiter, he Mil 1100 to make his choice either to concede measures fnunded upon the principle of these measures, or . see a degree of dissatisfaction prevail throughout the country that will be dangerous. Ido feel SO deeply the importance of the question, that I could not help, connected as I am with the commerce of the country, setting forth in the strongest language I could my hope that the House will come to a right deci sion upon this sub ( iect. 1 - 4 4. Mr, ODST NE said he did not stand up to dis cuss the principle of trade.—(Cheers.) The question before the House was, Were we to go into Committee to consider an alteration in the sugar duties ? and an amendment had been proposed that the auger duties were not a At 51.4. 1 3194 fat' alteration. That amendment 1 1'44 no' 4.11.111(194 upon the grounds of trade, but upon higher considerations. In the principles laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman he found little that was liable to objection.—(Cheers.) He agreed irt nearly all that fell from him,—(Chears,) The Honourable Gentlemen oppoalie might find it answer their pups til aim-113e to the Gentlemen behind him that they were the upholders of mono poly and restriction, but it was net fcamtried upon truth.—(Cheers.) The propmitlau before the House called upon their} ie\ i t handbn a great principle—(Cries of il OA, Ohli)—anti. all for what—for ls. 6d. per cwt., even according to the calculations of the Noble Lord. Was there no period at which sugar was enjoyed as a luxury by British people e i t it ehoaper rate than that which Milliqe*lptAllmied to give ? If they looked back to the period of alaiery, they would find that sugar was had cheap enough. The average price of sugar during the seven years, from 1828 to 1834 4 was only 27 5 . 11d. per cwt., hut the advantages derivable from slavery were not considertcl sufficient to atone for the evils that existed under it. The nation rose as a man to abolish slavery. Was it not known by every man of common sense th 4 the firs; etibet of the emancipation of Ole ShstVem roust necessarily be to reduce the 1-41'.441114ti0i1l and thereby enhance the price of sugar ? Yet the people persevered in their noble effort. The abolition of slavery was a great experiment, and did the Noble Lord suppose `that 'the people ox this country would consent to the abandonment ti that experiment— that they would nnwobii to forego the high ch ara ct er they tql earned 'in the eyes of the world, an d adopt the proposition of the Noble Lord ? It wes said that coffee and cotton should also be excluded as being the produce of slave labour, Those articles were generally prepared foe use by fbmale hands, and could be prOdueed without slave labour : but the cultivation 'of *agar mainly depended on slave labour. It was that which tempted men to go to Africa to steal their. follow-men.---(Cheers.) He contended_ that .here was in the measure of the (10 , .ernment an abandonment of a great principle, which had been hitherto observed at so mighty a ccAtim this country. But he should have complai.i.hai more w s"mly still of that plan as it was tkm weve,sed, The Right Hon. Gentletnan the 011mtcellor - of the Exchequer had tlio eliqtActer 4 being' a plain man, and a man of busi ness ; and yet on the Friday he proposed a plan for an alteration of the duty in which they had nothing of the scale which he afterwards introduced, --(Hear, hear.) The effect of the Right Hon. gentleman's plan, as he had first introduced it, would . not only have the effect of adrnittlag Slave-gown sugar, but that the en efaitagcnieitt given to the introduction of foreign' sugar would have been of a nature to exclude every other, And here was a difference of 50 per cent, in the vain& of foreig,n sugar—and it unfortunately htTp,tiviki that the superi or sugar was that grown ill the slave countries. Cuba and the 1t i V41.5 were the great sources o f that last article and . Siam, Cochin China, and Manilla were the only ' countries where sugar could he said to be the produce of free latinnt‘--(itear, hear.) But the sugar of CnbA was 50 per cent. more valv i alllc, than that of Manilla. Now, if the Right Iron Gentleman had i n t en d e d to introduce the two articles upon equal terms into the Britia iaarket, it re quired no lengthened demonstrotion to conclude that he ought to lay upon 014 inoro valuable article, a' d u ty o f fifty par mt, higher then that l a id u p on th e ot h er , t h at wag to, 5411 y, If he laid a duty of 365. per cwt. on Manilla sugar, he Might to lay a duty of 545. on the sugar of Cuba. The Right Honourable Gentlemen, however, proposed on the contrary to lay a duty of 365. per cwt. on Manilla sugar, and the same duty upon the sugar o! Cuba. That would lead to the total exclusion of the cheaper article. The Right Hop, gentle:4nm, how ever, had altered his 110 ilk' a m eaner which he (Mr. Gladstooe)llioilihi the House ought to discountenance. , —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman ought in !, the first instance to have submitted that tireposal which he meant for dischsSierl, arid not the other which he had ado2ted on the, v er y morning of the day on which the discussion was to t a k e pl ace . But the Right Hon. Gentleman had not unfortunately altered his plan enough. Let the House mark the effect of the 12s. duty as pro posed by thrs Right Hon. Gentleman. Under that duty ' sagars differing considerably in quality would b,. intro- . duced, and unfortunately nearly the whole of them would while the free labour sugar be the produce of th e BrtOls, _MORNING 1-IMITTON% of Mardila and.the East - had- -....eirrrelv ttnything to hold for in th e plan as it at present ,stun The- thiti• 3 , 1 . Learned Member for. Dublin, who A: not then_iiilß l place, had r ecor d e d i n favour ,of the ni,..trou4 11 gratiiving testimony of hi s co nc ern for their avelfa', The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had given notice t hs e ! he intended to propose in Committee that the introda . _ Con of foreign su gar s h ou ld b e li m it e d t o free gro iN f sugar only. H e (M r . Gl a d s t one ) believed- that some ° f the Hon. and Learned Gentleinan's frii;ndi would l ia L the kindness to remi n d hi m that t h er e - was one slight o,u, jection to the_ proposal lie had Made, which "1 that it was contrary t o th e express an d lit e ral tel l of the Treaty of Brazil, w hi c h rendered it tot al yi impossible, without a di rec t v i o l a ti on o f t h e natio°, faith, to draw any distinction betwe en th e su gar of 911 f, other country and that of the B r a z il s . If i t we re not 5 he (Mr. Gladstone) should, for one, be glad toshow example of a willingness to recognise the principh"t c o had. been • justly and fairly laid -down, that eoitill,% . had a beneficial effect in the production of comin , t' e c ; and that monopoly is the parent, not only of &TO d to the Consumer, but likewise of sloth- n , inefficiency in the labourer.—(Hear.) H e s hould so however, be ready to make every possible .diStrift lii ,: l , 4 ; tion between slave sugar and fr ee sugar. He that would be important in a mor a l point of view, anu It i ,". would explain to the world that they did not' lay a p i n ts ' bition on sugar because it was foreign but because it slave grown. The Noble Lord th e S ecre t ar y for o to e Colonies had held out a hope of enterieg. negotiations with the Government of the Brazils I ra the suppression of the slave trade. But the Noble I)0 had taken the very worst course for attaill; that end ; for the Noble Lord proposed to g l ,,t away all the benefits lie could off e r, NViP. °-- . previously insisting on an y c or res p on di ng c oncessi o n The Right Hon. Gentleman who last sat down saiit th a similar measure to the present had been proposed , o f 1829, by Mr. Grant. But the question then was on e • slave sugar against slav e sugar . Th e presen t lo', question between free labour and the slave trad e ' (Cheers.) The reduction p ro p ose d i n 1829 wou ld ba re o been a dead letter. Th e B r iti s h p ro d ucers wer e, at Ul, time, able to sell suga r a t s s . p er cwt . b e l ow t h e forl ..a . producers, and wh a t i n th e wor ld wou ld i t have n) tered to them, if the p ro t ec ti ng d uty , w hi c h t h ey did ' l° ) need, had been lowered by a few shillings ?—(Chee_ At es ' The slave trade was annually slaying its tens of thousa7,", and hp asked the House to, pause ° before it gave te rs. t ) miseries of that trade still greater intensity.--(Ch ee i , - t After all that this country had done—all the mono t 3e e had been paid, he rejoiced to say—(Laughter)--- 1 1,., 0 " . suppression of the slave trade—he called on the utro t not to agree to the proposition of the ,_Ministry,, would make this country an object of laughter It was of no avail to use physical force t put down" he slave trade whilst we were stimulating that lust of which we knew to be the satire. of the evil.—{Hr7; hear.) It was well said by Mr. Tur n b u ll, i n hi d ex ce o e work upon _Cuba, that 200 pe r cen t. was mr on ger , h physical force.—(Hear, hear.) Th e NO+ Lot'd °lt? (Lord : John Russell) had adopt e d the argninentS au e by General Taunton, in I$,N, in ftwour of the sta.') trade.—(" No, no," front Lord J. Russell.) If not. t e ; the Crcnerul was guilty of plagiarism by anticipati . ° l} ),,,,e he used the very argu men t i n f avour o f the 6`-,i trade, which the Noble Lord now used in favour the proposed encouragement of it,----( 44 No, no," and chee l 3, General Taunton said, that if we gave tin the slave advanta ey to America, who could carry it o a tO.. s Pheaply,—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lords a rgionT ie ourselves, we should not Ju t an en l to it, hut give 9 • 11 „, t 1, was, that if we did no t t a k e t h e i d ave pro d uce of lel it would go to other countries.—(Laughter, and " But there `sari a name in the present Cobioe,t more — ie, mately connected with the a b o liti ca of the slave to` o i He had understood th a t th ere was a man, the poweAr.4l but unseen ally of Mr, Wilberforce, a man who 1 0 '0 not to the present for his reward, whose 112,We',.ibi Zachary Macaulay, and whose son was a Member e 4 present Cabinet, and he could tvo t eonceir e o l contrast more painful, if it were inciccel true, as then' argued that the effect of this bicasaire, if carried,°l be to stimulate the prndiagion of sugar in Cutoi, Brazil, anti ttmt the eilkt must be to give an *tbit tj° for to the slave trade. He could no k i,ecattat 0 ( such proceedings but on the gromd of a log of principle—(Hear, hear)---for ho thought manY those who voted for 141 measure would do so with doa, ing 'ninth and Clll4llillg hearts. Cheers. The S ° ;7 ; LA knew this measure had created dissension ati i i s his friends, that the commer c i a l clasSes distoksted legislation, and we (said the Hon. Menilofor. our ? co are well assured that the British Hokw Comar .. .„ ns i g„ this occasion, in the eyes o f Ow (Wakkiltry and of Euivi will vindicate its ancient faloo,----(Loud cheers.) dye Mr. GISTIORNitI then moved the adjournment of Ciehate, whieh was agreed to. ad' l'he other Orders of the D a y were tAlay dispose,,_ and the House adjourned at a Quart to One o'CW— PORTUG . .tL. • - F e By the Letda steamer, which arriv VTlPing with the Malta and Peni an i a ma il s, we have re' pc letters and Papers from Llsbo;, and Oporto to the 4th ins r ;, Dif• Leeds left Gibraltar on 'ale 29th, Cadiz on the 30th of APri" bon the 3d, and' 4010 and Vigo on the 4th inst. ~„ellsr , at Falmouth on - ejo il LtsisqN 4 MAY 3 . -- -Consequent Upon the Duke de P 3.7. to O. presicient of the Finance Committee, having represente" for President of the Council, Minister at War, and pro I‘....°Pepor th Marine, Conn% do Bomfim, that the annual expendit"'„nue army, 0,1;100 oontos de reis (756,2501.) is snore than. th e re te d tore'_ , the *ate can possibly support, his Excellency has collse n m mittc' s , duce it to 2,800 contoa tie reis (641,6661. sterling), this C % pit has it also in contemplation to propose an increase of la le , - A itioe, property ' and articles of internal •consumption, with an ad di ct 10 per Cent. on the decimas, and 20. per cent, on the sa l s" th e . „o' the civic public employes. By this plan its members ar e ,7' a rly d e. impression that the country will be enabled to Meet th e flea of 2,600 contos de reis (395,833/. stet ling.)'' the °li' t " The new financial agent for London, alluded to ". °r ge ° posilion Msg. is the Baron de Lagoa, w h o h as the Pat.% the Duke de Palmelia, and the Mini s t er o f J us ti ce ; h" b c :coo' the now conflicting state of things, his , appointment ma1;I 71 sidered as in embryo. The N e bi e B aron procee d s to E ll g. 1 ee l this day's packet without h av i ng o b ta i ne d any advantag e th a t learn for the bondholders of the Portuguese foreign loan. wee Two criminals, M. J. Saldanha and M Estevao LoPe"' n o , t hung on Friday for the murder of J. E,t evao d e Oli v eira, 3 ioc e in respectable circumstances, near Li s b on, fi ve years a g ° ! 6 5 tOe which time the assassins have been in prison. M. E. LePe' v D ' y P i. son of the murdered man, and was i nst i gated to commit the act 30sf' mother, who had long been criminally intimate with the °th e '. , th e sin, and proposed to get rid of her husband that she might I' v ,: e irif more freely with her paramour, the inducement to the soo to come in at once into part of his father's property. Ll e . ' 4 th e only sixteen when h e comm i tted the crime. They waY'ai father in the ev en i ng, when on his way from Lisbon to hi" c try.house, when he was held by Saldanha, and stabbed hi v i i iie; in eighteen pl aces, w hi ch, however, did not prevent hi s sd" . , Dot till the mornin g , w h en h e was found almost almost lifele'' avo rd able to depose t o th e f act of hi s son b e i ng the person w ho t„ soft; him, The chief evidence against the prisoners was anot he , o' The mother, there being a law which prevents the • Women, will be transported for life. She had preViouslY c-poo t her own father's death, by denounci ng hi m as disaffected ° sub" Miguel ; and he sunk under the persecution to which he W jected in consequence of the denunciation, The Trimculr to- p 6 .40 ...amnia brig of war, Commander Coffin, leaves • go England. On her arrival there two Courts.martial will blooe held, both the First and Second Lieutenants having been ibr ,ceo e time under close arrest for alleged in su b or di nat i on. A enti°l-eraecl' took place in the river last Mond a y,i n w hi c h th i s br i g wag c°' ; ' ,. CO Y , A mere vessel, the Miranda (English) om itt e d to salt." rpandea Coffin's Rag, which is usually done by lowering the telS ' llO sails. I believe the Captain of the m erc h antman h a d boo t o th e h he would pass without saluting ; a nd p ass h e certa i n ly did' v oicr i moment after a blank shot was tired a him from the brig. 0 bit m not ing attention to, a ball was forth w ith se nt thrott , a nd Mainsail, when he thought proper to l ower hi s topga llant I ,V viD t. was making off; but this would not do for C omman der Cow l "; sent a boat after him, which fired at him again, and compe l j 10 ,e0 41 to return and sail twice round the Trinculo, when he was to proceed. stP "The guerillas in the Algarve still continue their wan ton tie s ~ predatory incur.ions, and their numbers d a ily au 'ment bi n - 0 1/ 19 sertions - of privates from various regiments of The line star io 7 that quarter, upon, it Is said, the ple a o f b e i ng i n arrears °l t ,' A gang had ig approached Od em i ra on t h e 21 st u lt. , the I.la a nd Gerard* of that neighbourhood, t o th e num b er o f 52, moun teo wit° ell) foot, dividing into three sections, sallied forth, and fell in de' them at the farm of Ameixiaes, killing three, among th eni t ' l i et h serter from the 25th b a tt a li on o f i nfantry, and woun ding ° ore' who, nevertheless, ma nage d to escape to the woods. Soin hic l arms, three horses, a quant i ty of to b acco, and other objects, „,- they had just previously purloined, fell into the hands of lb" _ tors. fft e " From the ineffectual fiscalization of the excise.office ° b oo city, a large rittaxiiity of pipes, containing only water, 110 e , 11 0° cleared out for Oporto, and on their. passage filled with bandy il•oin vessels cruising aside for this purpose, therebi -lai r ' fitg a ready introduction into this coun t ry f or contra b an d s( Se. Her Majesty the Queen will give to.mo rrow, at t h e P a l a ce ° el JC cessidades, a grand dinner to the Spanish Envoy Doris Orli ti le Aguilar, towhich cards of invitation h ave b een issued diplomatique corps. 'fe l ' " Exchange upon London at 30 days' si g ht, 531. p e r ra j v,''' A. . r TROLLOPE S " SUMMER IN WES.J,, o , F stc E." —Agreeable as were the author's forenee e i‘• Lime s , A Summer in Brittany," they are greatly c b celled in the present work. While passing o ver 511 0 5 attractive ground as the scene of the English cencl u i ; of in France, the field of the he ro i c adventures of. Arc, the theatre of the desperate struggles of t ile 'ea' guenots at La Rochelle, and of the Royalists of La e re des the land of cognac and claret—and the soil w flourished a whole host of historical c h a racters' 1,0 author seems to ha ve b een st i mu l ate d to exercise allrc; talents as a tourist, and, as the reader will acknowleub with a very happy result. At one time we find Ont o % sipping about the antiquities of the old provincial te, at another making clear an obscure pa of ili 6 ,' ° o / here he lingers with Richard Cur de L io n a t Chal ic e, there he stays with Margaret of Anjou at DarnP u o,e- After a while we find him describing mines, toriea, prisons, Druidical remains, cathedrals, a nd r oo d; fields, with the spirit of one born in their neighbour ° u se' and these are delightfully relieved by a fund of 01 0 40 ment in the anecdotes, adventures, legends, and re, l t c iee that accompany them. Indeed, information is so We lts 1 ? t , with entertainment throughout the se p age s, that 0 , 0 book of travels the " Summer in Western F ri/ proves one of the mdst agreeable works ever w , r itten. rig , FATAL STEAM EXPLOSION ON THE 111V rge —Shortly before six yesterday morning a large ballast t oe' worked by steam, used for cleansing and removing °P s i the tions in the Thames, was de s t ro y e d b y t h e bursting boiler, and one of the workmen killed. The following a ' h of, particula s :—The barge was moore d o ff Di c k en ' s c oal ttto Upper Ground-street, tilickfriars, and about five o'clock men commended wo r k. Th ey h a d not b een long en!ple x when the boiler of t h e eng i ne b urst w i t h a tremen dous p o ts sion, similar ti) a report of artillery. and scattered fraggaiere of the machinery to a considerable distance around• l e to were three men on board, only two of whom were al ess el escape, which they did by jumping into an adjoining ~.010 before the e ng i ne an d b arge, wit h i ts ponderous maculdeng sunk. The report was heard at a considerable distance gter the banks of the river, a.. 11 speedily attracted several ` i d jot men and light ermen t o the spot. It w as th en as certain ed the a man, name d 3,111 Constable, had n o t b een s een sin e explosion, and as he must have sunk with the barge' ' h r p e . which lay an immense mass of iron, and which mu: ba ilee been rem-ved before he could be rescued, there wai n° all:De o. of.ersea‘iancgtihkeilmy. Up to a ate hour in th e ino• ning Sev er s u engaged i,. remov mg porticnks of the w hollY but a considerable time must elapse htfore Chat can b e lir accomplished. The barge was under the direction o f • Schooley..