The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-25 00:00:00

MORNING _EDITION. tions, and that great subdivision of land had been the oc casion of almost all the evils of Ireland. That system had now been almost entirely abolished ; they had, at the cost of great suffering to the people, almost completed the state of transition to a better order of things, and now they were to be thrown back upon all the evils cf the for mer system. Thu Act constituting the 405. freeholders had been passed by the Irish Parliament in 1793 • and he would read from the second Re port Of the Railway Commissione rs an extract, showin g the effect which that law had produced. That Report was signe Iby the late Mr. Drummond. He need not stop to eulogi,e that gentleman now fir the excellent and efficient manner in which he discharged his duty as a Railway Commissioner. He differed from him on many points, more partictl illy as to the policy which he had pursued. in conjunction with Lord Mulgrave ; but he could not withhold from him his meed of approbation for the con scientious discharge of what he believed to be his duty. --(Cheers.) That Report stated that the populatien of Ireland, in 1791, amounted to 4,206,612; in 1821, to 6,801,527 ; in 1931, to 7,767,201 ; and, in 1338, at the date of the Report, to eight millions and a half. 'This increase e f popul ition had been entirely owing to the subdivision of lands occasioned by the Act of 1793, and the dreadfully distressed state of the unfortunate agricul tural population was most feelingly depicted. The landlords dreaded a return to that system, and it wae not only on political grounds that they were opposed to the mea elite of the Govern!' eat, but as having a tendency to reproduce the subdis i lion of laid. The Railroad Com missioner had said it was necessary for the public good that the paupar tenantry should be changed into indepen dent lebuurere That change had been taking place during the list ten years, but the measure of the Noble Lord wool I the ow them alt back into their former destitute condi tion. He would carne: fly call upon those Members who had the welfare of Ireland at heart to pause and seriously consider whether they were prepared to cut up by the roof all the good which had been gradually done since 1829. Were they prepared to throw all again into utter confusion by ag, eeing to pass the Bill of the Government? In his opinion there were many reaaons to ju , tify a much smaller constituency in Ireland - than in a wealthy country like England. What fell from the Hen. and Learned Member for Dublin in. 1837 ? Upon a discussion on the Poor-law Bill, he said that in 1336 the destitution in Ireland far exceeded all the calculations of the Commissioners. There were 585,000 heads of families in a state of desti•ut ion during the greater portion of 1336. He computed them to be at the head of three millions of population, two-thirds of them destitute during the best part of the )ear, and one-third during the whole year. Now surely they were not going to give the franchise to the pauper population. Three millions then bad to be de luctel from the eight millions when they com pared the number of electors to the population. The Government had, in his opini in, totally failed in showit.g any necessity for such a violent change in the franchise. But suppose for a moment that they had ma le out a case, where had they shown any basil upon which to rest it. The information they had givers to the House clearly shelved that the rating upon which it was proposed to rest the franchise was made directly at variance with the ensetmetes of the Poor-law Act. They proposed also to extend the 91. franchise to boroughs, yet they had not presented one single report of any inquiry into any city or town. Now, why was that? They could only draw inferences. He would state what , ' came to his knowledge respecting Cork. He had a re turn of the valuations of that city. In the lowest parts of Cork, in Dublin -street, he had the return of twenty-four houses rated at 51., fur the purposes of local taxation to the Poor-rate; three of them were valued at 71., five at Si., eight at 9/., seven at 10/., and one at 111. odd. The result proved that in the various classes of houses of which he had obtained returns, the valuation for local pur poses exceeded that under the Poor-taw valuation by from 10 to 150 per cent Now, there was another point to which he wished to call the alt •ntion of the Noble Lord. He had rece ved a letter from Mr. Philip Reeve, a gentle man form. r.y at the bar, but who was now living on his property in the county of Clare, and who was intimately acquainted with the circumstance; of the country, and be statel it to be hi; deliberate conviction, that if the present measure was carried, it would confer the franchise upon 20,000 voters in that country alone.--( Hear, he Ir. ) He submitted to the House that it was an exceedingly impo litic thing to increase the constituency to the extent which the NoLle Lord's (Lord Morpeth's) Bill proposed to give. It would be a totally unmanageable business if the rest of Ireland would have a constituancy in the same proportion as it appeared the county Clare would have under this Bill. If tire county Clare were to have 20,000 voters, how many would the county Cork have? Why, taking its great extent and population into consideration, it would have no fewer than 100,000 voters. The great objection against such an enormous increase was, that it would aug ment an influence nhich was too powerful for Ireland— too powesful fur the interest of the country—he meant the influence of the Catholic clergy in that country. It never was intended to invest the Catholic clergy as a body with election influence. To be sure they had a right to vote as well as other individuals; but their influence as a body at elections was, he contended, too great ; it was dangerous, and such was the opinion of the Duke of Wellington ex pressed at the time of the abolition of the 40s. freaholders. The 40s. freeholders were abolished, because they were not that intelligent, independent class of men, who ought to possess the franchise; and now it was proposed to give the privilege of the franchise to a similar class of men; for he insisted that the persons registered under a Si. qual fication were virtually of the satire class as the 40s. freeholders. Now what would be the consequences of giving the franchise to such men, who were completely under the influence of their landlords on the one side, and of the priests on the other? The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cavan, in the excellent speech which he made last night, and which met the approbation of all parties, said he would net give even to the clergy of the Established Church the same power that was possessed by the Catholic priests in Ireland, who ha (Mr. Jackson) would say did not give the same pledges of security to the Stato as the Protestant clergy. The priests were single men—( Laughter)—and had no stake in the community ; not so the Protestant clergy ; they were like other mem bers of society. He thought that as individuals the Catho lic clergy ought to possess some right, but as a body they ought nut to have the power which he re gretted to say was in their hands.—(Hear, hear, hear.) 'lle actual majority possessed by the Government now, was but eleven or twelve, and it was not the representa tices of England who kept that Government in office, but some thirty-four Members returned by Irish constitu encies. The people of Ireland, in fact, at the present moment controlled] the people of England.—( Hear, hear.) He objected to this Bill, because it disturbed the j settlement of 1629. There was a growing feeling in the country to disturb that settlement, and he regretted it, and called upon the House not to furnish arguments for doing so. He objected also to the argument made use of, that it was necessary to grant this measure, because it was dan gerous to excite discontents in Ireland, which might lead to the severance of the two countries. This argument was too much like that employed elsewhere by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) was astonished to hear such an argument from the lips of the Right Hon. Secretary at War. He thought it a dangerous argument, and one which should not be em ployed in that House by any person, and still less by one of her Majesty's Ministers.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. SLAN EY, in rising to support the second reading, expressed his regret that the moderation with which the discussion had been carried on by many gentlemen on both sides was not observed by all who spoke.—( Cheers.) He thought the Hon. Member fir Caran on the opposite (the Tory - ) side, and the Hon. Member for Drogheda near him, deserved the thanks of the House f)r the man ner in which they had treated the question. —( Hear, hear.) All were agreed that a most vexatious and mis- ehievous uncertainty existed as to the interpretation of the qualification clause in the existing law; and as no plan for removing the ambiguity seemed possible to be proposed except that upon which this Bill was devised, why should they refuse to go into Committee, prepared to make mu tual concessions, and to settle the amount of the qualifi cation upon conditions satisfactory to all ? He thought the 51. franchise was too low.--( Hear, hear.) But her Majesty's Ministers affirmed that the rating at el. was a o test of 101. value, and he was willing to hear in Com mittee the grounds on which that assertion was made. He did not think that the statements made by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland were sufficient to bear out all the details of the measure. But the principle had been fully made out, and for that alone he was prepared to vote. It was cf the highest i importance to Ireland, and to the empire, that this question should be settled, and it never could he settled in a ileac table and effective manner with out mutual concessions, which could be made in Commit tee He believed that there were prudential considera tions at present which pressed for the settlement of this que-tiots.—(hear.) He, therefore, appealed to Hon. Gentlemen opposite to go into the Committee with a de termination to 'yield something of their own views, so as to procure, by a sacrifice of feelings upon both sides, a permanent adjustment of the irritating and most injurious disputes which the present state of the electoral law in Ireland kept up in the House and in Ireland. Mr. THESIGER felt that the speech cf his Hon. Friend the Member for Shropshire had left the House in some difficulty. In the beginning his Hon. Friend said that his object was to suggest a middle course, and he con cluded by saying that no middle course could be taken, but that the principle of the Bill must be acceded to. Now the principle of the Bill was what they on that (the Tory) side of %he House decidedly objected to. From the speech of the ltloh!e Nord opposite (Lord Nlorpeth) it was evi dent that the 5/. franchise was really the principle, for the Noble Lord intimated that if that part of the Bill were lost, be would abandon the whole measure. —( Hear, bear.) His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Exeter, touched last night upon an objection which appeared to him (Mr. Thesiger) of very great and conclusive im portance. Ho stated that this measure, with regard to the alteration of the franchisee affected the settlement of the great question on which that most salutary and heal ing measure, the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, was founded, and violated the pledge given at the time with iospect to the franchise. Hon. Members were aware. that at the time that Bill was introduced there existed in Ireland a -10, , . freehold constituency, composed of per sons likely to be, to a very considerable extent, influenced in the exercise of the elective franchise; and that, at the time it was proposed to introduce that Bill, apprehen. sions were entertained that very great danger might re sult from the measure, if that constituency were left un touched, and that very great temptations might be held out to fraud in the multiplication of voters. It had there fore been determined that that measure should not be car ried, unless it were accompanied by the extinction of the 40s. freeholders in counties ; and many Hon. Members were induced to give their reluctant support, he believed, to the measure for the relief of the Roman Ca tholics in Ireland, in consequence of its being ac. companiod by the enactment for the extinction of the 40s. freeholders, and of its creating, at the same time, a constituency which it was considered might be above all undue and improper influence. Although the Nr; l's ei 4 , \ IBA! for the annihilation of the 40s. freeholders passed Fthe House before the Roman :Catholic Relief Bill, yet "rr. H7._ ; --- e. the two Bills received the Royal Assent at the same time, , e ,41e,7`"-Jes j. ' .":. in April, 18,39, and they wero undoubtedly considered i a: part of the same measure. The IN. freehold con. ' c i: 44l ' • _......„..., ....„..,•., , i ..„,,, •,.,../ 3 stitut ‘ney was established by the Act 10 George IV., the creel older being bound to prove that he possessed an in terea t of the yearly value of 10/. above the rent and char gcs to which he was liable ; and in the oath which be was required to take he was called upon to state that he verily believed that a solvent tenant could pay 101. over and above the rent with which he was charged. Matters continued so until the Passing of the Reform Bill in 1832 ; and no one ever dreamt of disturbing that system no one ever thought of restoring the 40s. freehold franchise in Ireland. The lion. and Learned Member for Dublin, in the course of the discussion which had taken place on the Reform Bill, had occasionally raised his voice in favour of the 40s. freeholders, but had found no echo whatever in the House ; and no one till the present moment had ever thought of disturbing the settlement that had been come to, or of violating the pledge which had most unquestion ably been given. It remained for the Noble Lord, under the circumstances which had been so frequently brought under the attention of the House, to introduce this most important and most startling measure, which would com pletely destroy the present system, and which would com pletely violate the pledge that had been given at the time —which would not restore the 40s. freehold franchise to Ireland, but would establish a constituency of a very infe rior description, and which would place matters on an in finitely worse footing than they were at the time of the passing of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—Hear, hear.) He would ask whether it were just and proper that Hon. Members who had voted for that measure, under the assurance that it was to be accompanied by the extinclon of the 40a. freeholders, and that the two systems were to be established together, and were to remain permanently attached to each other—he would ask whether it was dealing fairly with them to introduce a measure of that cl,eseription, and to call upon the 1101.17 C to pass it into a law ? It had been said that doubts existed with regard to the p r oper construction of the freehold and leasehold in terest, under the Irish Reform Act ; and his Hon. Friend, t h e Member for Shrewsbury, stated that he had made private insiuiries on that (the Opposition) side of the House, and that he did not find any one who could give a certain opinion on the subject, and who did not express that he entertained some doubts of the propriety of the in terpretations which he had given. He (Mr. S.) should confess that he was astonished to hear that observation from the lion. Member, for he had unquestionably never entertained any doubt with regard to the proper construc tion of the words in the Irish Reform Bill. He had con versed familiarly and freely with lawyers on the subject, and he had never heard that they entertained any doubt on the matter. All of tbem—at least all of them with whom he had been in communication-(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches)—were of the same opinion. It was his own opinion, and he was not afraid to avow that he en tertained no doubt whatever that the statutes of the 10th George IV., with regard to freelaol is, and the statutes of the Reform Act with regard to freeholds and leaseholds, were precisely the same, and that the interest required was of a similar description. lie should beg lsave ta observe, in reply to the lion. Baronet the Member for Drogheda, that the opinions of Members of that House, or of the other Mouse, expressed in the discussion on any Bi!l, shoul l not be applied for the purpose of interpreting it, because if that were done they could always get the construction for which they were contending. But when a Bill had passed both liouses of the Legislature, and had received the Royal assent, it then became a subject fer judicial decision, and they had not expressed this meaning so as not to be mis interpreted, it was their fault; but he had never heard say one in arguing the construction of an Act of Parlia ment, inquire what were the arguments urged at the time the Bill was under discussion in either House ; that would he a most improper course to adopt, and he should, there fore, enter his protest against that part of the observations of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Drogheda. It was a very great mistake, which his lion. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury had fallen into in common with other Mem bers, to suppose that they were opposed on that (the Op position) side of the House to a certain test being applied fur the purpose of ascertaining the franchise. They bad not the slightest ;objection that the poor-rate test should be applied, provided it were under certain eir cum:tare:es, land with such securities as would sa tisfy them that they would obtain the real and substantial qualification.—( Hear, hear. But he was certain that his Hon. Friend, if he applied his mind to the subject, would see that it was impossible, with a poor rate valuation alone, that they could obtain that substantial qualification sa hich they had a right to demand in a settle ment of the question. Let that House just consider for a moment what it was the Noble Lord proposed by his Bill. His Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Exeter, had, in his usual clear and lucid manner, shown that from the earliest period of our Parliamentary history, a di-tine tiou had always existed between the qualification for voters in counties, and the qualification for voters in towns and boroughs ; and that the one had been based on property, and the other on inhabitantcy or some corporate or munici pal right. That distinction had been preserved at the time of the passing of the Reform Act; because, however they might differ with regard to the nature of the interest which the leaseholder was required to possess in order to qualify him to vote, they must all agree that the interest which he had was to he of a superior and different description from that which the voter in towns and boroughs was required to possess; and whether they took as a beneficial interest the profit to which he might succeed in making out of his property, or whether they took the solvent tenantcy test, still property was to be for the foundation of the qualificaticn for coun ties, whereas in boroughs and towns they had nothing but occupation. That distinction which his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Exeter, had so forcibly pointed out was reserved at the time of the Reform Act ; but un der the Noble Lord's Bill it was altogether swept away. The Noble Lord levelled everything—he removed every land-mark--he made no distinction whatever, and, strange to say, if his Bill ware carefully examined it would be , found that he actually placed the county voter on a lower footing than the voters for towns and boroughs.—( Hear, hear.) Let them see, in the first place, what was the qua lification which the Noble Lord required for the voter in counties. The Noble Lord proposed that persons who occupied under a lease for fourteen sears any premises would be entitled to vote, provided he were rated to the extent of 51. Now let the House just see how unreal and how illusory was this substitution for the property which county voters had hitherto been required to possess. What was the interest which the lessee might have under the proposal of the NoWe Lord ? Why nothing would be easier than for a landlord to let his land for a lease of fourteen years at a nominal rent of 5/., 10/. or 201., arid to enter into a pri vate agreement with the tenant that he would only pay that which the land would clear, while he could introduce into his lease a condition that if the tenant did not pay his rent, or perform his covenant, the landlord would have a right to enter and take possession. Now lion. Members who were accustomed to this subject were perfectly well aware that a lease of that description with such conditions would be rated for the same term cf years as if it were made absolute and unconditional ; and then let the House see the situation in which that which was to be the basis of the county constituency, and the substitute for the pro perty which tae county voters were now supposed to possess, would place the tenant. Why, if he were refractory—if he did net vote according to the wishes cf his landlord, he could, under the process for re-entry, he deprived of his possession. The tenant might agree with his landlord, performing his wishes, and paying the rent agreed on be tween them, but let him disobey the wishes of his land lord and that moment lie might be deprived of his sub stance. And yet that was the expedient which had been proposed by the Noble Lord as a substitute for the bene ficial interest, and fur the property which a county voter was now required to possess. But there was another in gredient in the qualification, and that was that the party should be rated to the amount of 51. Let the House just consider the effect of the provision. If the voter and the landlord could find a Board of Guardians favourable to their views, they might easily procure the insertion of a rate of the extent of 51., and if the party should have been rated to that amount, although the holding might not be worth forty shillings, or one shilling, no person could object to the rate, as no person was aggrieved by the insertion of a higher rate for another than the holding was worth.—( Hear, hear.) The grievance of an improper rate would only be felt when a party was himself overrated, or where another party was underrated: but when patty was overrated, there was no grievance done to others under the same rate, because it would rather diminish their burthens. Under the proposed sys em, if any one should happen to be improperly put on fur the rate, the same provision would continue in force; and he appealed to lawyers and to gentlemen familiar with the subject, if he were not right in saying that in England nobody ever dreamed of making objections to a rate by reason of any party being overrated, and that it had never been considered by others as a grievance. Now, if that were so, it must be very easy indeed with a favourable Beard of Guardians. fur a party who bad no interest what ever in the land which he merely occupied, to cause his name to be put upon the rate ; and once there, so long as the lease endured, so long must it continue on it, for the Bill also containe I that most extraordinary provision. If a person should have been placed on thereto for 51. although the Board of Guardians appointed the very next year should, in the discharge of their duty, feel satisfied that he had been improperly placed there, and should reduce the amount of his rating, still he would have a right, on paying to the amount of 5/.—( Hear)—and he would not be remov able for the whole time that his lease would continue to exist. That was put forward as the principle which was to guide them in establishing a real and substantial quali fication. Could anything be more illusory ? Could any thing be more absurd, as under the circumstances to apply that as a test for the right of voting ? How was it possible to say that either in respect to property, or in respect to the rate by which the amount of property was supposed to be ascertained, this system afforded any security whatever against those frauds, and these admissions of improper parties to the franchise, which it was admitted on both sides of the House had rendered some means necessary fur amending the system of registration in Ireland ? Let them now take the case of the household suffrage voters in towns and boroughs. lie would show that not only had the Noble Lord made no distinction between voters in counties and voters in boroughs, with regard to any property qualification in voters for counties, but that he had actually placed the county voter en a lower footing than voters in borough. The borough voter was to oc cupy a holding as well as the county voter. He was to be qualified by virtue of a rate of 51., but he was required to pay the grand jury cess, and the municipal cess rates and taxes. Now, that did not apply to the poor-rate valua tion. The poor-rate was not a municipal cess or rate, fora municipal rate was a rate peculiar to certain towns, as the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin very well knew. The grand jury cess extended all over the country, and was distinguished from the municipal Cei3 in that particular. All that the county voters would be required to do would be to pay the poor-ree, and no matter how abject might be his poverty, he would then be entitled to the franchise. Nobody supposed there had ever been the slightest doubt with regard to the qualifica tion of voters in boroughs, and yet there was to be a sweeping alteration in both quaificatiott=. After this short recital " whereas it is expedient to assimilate the mode of obtaining the qualifications in boroughs to that of counties," where wax the expediency, and what would become of the , THE SUN, LONDON, TiIURSDAY, FEBRUARY 25, P 441. beneficial interest of - which the county voter was now to be possessed? The co nscquence of the measure would be quite alarming, and _it would be impossible that they could introduce a Bill of that description into Ireland, without expecting that there • would be a demand made for the same privileges in lngland.—( Hear, hear.) They had already b•en pressed with that argument by the Hon. Member for Kilkenn y. The mischief which would follow from the introducti' in could never be realized ; and the hopes which they .had raised, and which he was quite certain Gould never be realized, would only serve to give a new rallying cry to , Ireland, and a new pretext f,r agi gitation.—( Hear. ) He was astonished, therefore, to find the Government int•roduce such a Bill, and that their most distinguished Member, the Noble Lord the Secre tary for the Colonies, had become a disciple of that move ment party, whose sentiments, in 1839 and 1540, he had disavowed. Ministers might rest satisfied with this. that if they endeavoured t D purchase a short and feverish ex istence by sacrifices 'of this description, they must have recourse to further concession in order to prolong it, and that this was only one step in advance in an indefinite progress in which aey must yield claim after claim, The measure was so fr aught with , dangerous consequences that he could not be satisfied with giving a silent vote on the question ; and he would use his humble, but firm ea deavours, in every stale of the Bill—if it should have any future stage, which h e trusted it would not—to defeat it by his most determined and decided opposition. Mr. C. BULLER. felt it peculiarly agreeable to be called on to address tlie Housr, wleno it had been brought to the calm temper to which it must have beet brought by the speech which they had just heard. The Boa. Member for Shrewsbury had vary properly called upon the House to discuss the question in a spirit of candour, and to endeavour to make out some measure which should be for the benefit of r...ee country. He was inclined to re g: et that a good deal of personal acrimony had been ex hibited during the c. nurse of the debate, and he must, in 'fairness, admit that a great deal of it had been exhibited by Hon. Gentlemen. on his own side of the House.— ( Hear, hear.) He thought that the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had really been hardly treated. There were def,cts acknowledged on all hands as existing in the Irish system of reg,i;tratior. The Noble Lord had called the attention of the Government to these defects, Ile had asked them if they would bring in a Bill to remedy them. Tney did not bring in a Bell. Some remedy was require d—( Opposition cheers)—and ,ter those circumstances certainly the Noble Lord, who was he must say the cause of all the mischief and confusion which bad happened in relation to the subject—(Cheers and laughter) —was certainly justified in bringing his B 11 be fore Parliament.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He did not find fault with the Noble Lord for bringing in a Bill on the subject, but he did find fault with him for bringing in so very bad a Bill as the one brought in by him.— (Cheers and laughter.) There was, however, one great advantage which had accrued from this bad Bid of the Noble Lord's. It had compelled the Government to bring in a very good Bill.—( Loud cheers.) They were not now in the awk ward position they occupied last year, that whilst opposing the Bill of th Noble Lord opposite as being a remedy that was rather worse titan the disease, they had no remedy of their own to bring forward. They had now the satisfaction of be;ng, able two oppose the Go vernment Bill to the Bill of tlfe Noble Lord. The Government Bill was complete in its essential=, and contrasted in its details most completely with the measure of the Noble Lord. It was prudent where the Noble Lord was rash—it ryas bold where he was timid- it was explicit where he was obscure—it was straightfor ward where he was indirect—it wai libtral where he was restrictive.—( Loud cheering.) The question flit the House to decide was, which of the two they would choose. No doubt there were peculiar defects and peculiir evils at- tending the frill] system of registration. But these evils were only the natural result of the Irish Bill, and if the Irish voter had been guilty of personation, of fraud, and of perjury, it seemed really to have been the intention of the Legislature to have induced him to the commission of these offence , . Such provisions, so disgraceful to the Legislature, he had never seen ; they seemed actually in tended to tempt people to commit personation. In the first place, ail persons might register at a place at the great est distance front their own residence, and consequently where they would be least likely to be known. Then there was the system of certificates. Why, who had ever heard of such a mode of evidence of the right of voting? It must have been invented by a pawnbroker or a turnpike-keeper.— ( Cheers and laughter.) Was it to be wondered at when this certificate gave the right of voting, and might be re newed year atter year, that they should have fifteen per sons with fifteen certificates, all voting from the same property.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Stanley.) I like that cheer from the Noble Lord," continued the Hon. Gentlemen, because it shows his candour, for observe it was an act of his own which has caused all thew evils.— ( Cheers and great laughter.) Lord STANLEY—Oh no, it was an Act of George the T4ird. Mr. C. BULLER would tell the Noble Lerd, that when he brought forward his Irish Reform Act he undertook to give a good system of registration. Now the defects of the system under the Act cf George HI. were as obvious to the eye of reason before as after the Reform Act. —(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) What on earth did they mean by that cheer? He admitted that that system had existed before the Reform Act, but when the Noble Lord brought in the Reform Act, by not altering but continuing the evils of the old system of re givration, and incorporating them in his own Bil!, he made himself responsible for them.—( Loud cheers.) It was not an usual fault with the Noble Lord that his Bills did not go far eaougb, bat the charge against him here might probably be made. He was ready to admit that some of the remedies proposed were sufficiently well calcu. lated to obviate many of the evils. He approved of an an nual revision, at least so "far as to enable them to remove from the list the voters who had died, or who had lost their qualification. Because, if they did not do that, they would depend upon the open voters, and be inciting to perjury all those who chose to go up and personate dead voters, or who, having lost the qualification, chose to go up and vote. The Noble Lord's Bill was good so far as that went, but the Noble Lord went much farther than was necessary, be cause he attempted to introduce into the Irish system the English system of an annual registration of all the voters, which had been tried in England and found so bad.— (Cheers.) He bad never heard as yet any argument why a man's elective franchise should be put upon a different footing to any of his other rights ; and why when once it was established to the satisfaction of a Court of Justice it should again be called in question.—(Cheers.) He must now advert to a part of the argument of the Hon. Mem ber for Bandon. Ho had interrupted that Hon. Member by a cheer. He had not meant to occasion him any in terruption. He knew how unpleasant such interruptions were, and he considered them exceedingly ill-bred; but he had been astonished at a statement which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had then been making. That state ment in itself was decidedly true, but it did not convey a true impression ; of course he meant to impute nothin g t o the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but such was the case. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was observing upon the argument of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh last night, that in England a man was not liable to have the same right tried twice over in a Court of Justice. Yes, said the Hon. and Learned Member fur Bandon, he is—for actions of ejectment the same rights may be tried over and over again. Now, that wai true in fact ; but it was not fair in argument, because it hsd always been acknowledged that this power of repeatedly trying eject ments was a Jeviation from the great principle.: of Eng lish laws, and that it had arisen solely from the artificial manner in which the question was raised by the pleadings —( Hear, hear, fro:n the Opposition.) He was not now stating his own opinion as law—(Cheers, and laughter)— but he was stating what he bad seen laid down in law books of authority. It was in them acknowledged that this was a defect in the lsw, and he had always under stood that a Court of Equity would not hesitate to grant an injunction to prevent the trial of vexatious actions of ejectment. It was therefore not a fair argument against the general principle. A second objection was the enormous ex pense which would be incurred, and the great waste of time which would be occasioned by the introLction of this sys tem, and the great chance that by repeating objections year after year the legitimate voter would be tired out, and give up his right altogether. The granting costs provided some remedy for that evil, but it was not an adeq2ate one, and it was much better to adhere to the sound principles of English law, and not to suffer a right which had been once established in a Court of Justice to be again called in ques tion.—(Cheer:.) Another objection to this annual revi sion was, that it was attended with at least bait' the ev:ls of an annual election. It might be very amusing and satis factory to some gentlemen to see recorded every year that at such a place the Conservatives had succeeded in esta .. blishing so many on the register, and in such another plica the Liberals had succeeded in doing the same thing. But this annual fight in the Registration Court was a great mischief in itself.—( Loud cheers.) Another argument against an annual revision was that it would make every man get his vote through the medium cf a party. He must be motored in the register as a Liberal or Conse►va tive, and must owe his vote to the party who had paidjthe lawyer to defend him. Now putting all these evils toge ther, and taking the argument of the N0b1 , ..! Lord, that without such revision some persons might get upon the register who were not entit'ed to be there—he would put it to the House whether it was not a greater evil thit th•r people should be exposed to this annual litigation with all its expense, waste of time, and other evils, than that a few persons should get upon the registry who were not entitled to the franchise. But the great point before the House was another; it was the question of the determination of the franchise. That was the really important question for their consideration.—( Cheers.) It was idle to deny that that was really the question, and that as long as that remained unsettled the other questions were of minor importance. Nobody could deny that that question was unsettled at preseni—the Revising Barristers were divided upon it— the Judges were divided upon it, and both Bills, he would admit, would equally remedy the evil. The Government Bill would give a clear definition of the franchise; the Bill of the Noble Lord also went to the settlement of the ques tion of the franchise, but it did so in a roundabout and in direct manner, and, without meaning anything personal to the Noble Lord, he must be excused for adding, by as little creditable a trick of legislation as he had ever seen in any measure introduced into that House. He would say that if the Noble Lord's. Bill passed, the question of the franchise would be set at rest in a restrictive sense. The Bill gave the appeal in both cases. Now, at first sight, this might not appear to be connected with the question, because it appeared that the Judges were divided in opinion, one part of them being in favour of the beneficial interest test, and the other in favour of the solvent tenant test ; but when they considered the opinions which had been given by all the Gentlemen on the other aide of the House—opinions to which he doubted not they would be willing to give the force of a law the moment they could command a ma jority, that in all cases the minority of the Judges were to be bound by the opinion of the majority (Cheers from the Opposition.) It would at once be seen that the decision of the franchise was placed in the hands oF the majority of the Iriih . 11(17es. N, nv , was thevitinion of that inapt ity Lnkn9wil r Could Oleic do t al'itg tenant itsliaet. test be as ed i lea b i the t?o—sa ti 'i s dn t g of ti t uh h ai the not u f d o l; : h t u h a t hmbleLos;d:ellyoef: Irish franchise ?—(Cheers.) It was not creditable to the House to legislate in such an indirect way; what they did they ought to do openly, and not to shift the difficulty of settling the question of the franchise from their own shoulders to the shoulders of the Irish Ju,'ges.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord grounded this provision on general ana logy : the appeal was given in the one way at present, it ought to be given the other way also; but such an im portant point as the definition of the franchise ought not to be settled by implication ; and if they put all the ques tions together connected with the registration that could come before the Judges and Revising Barristers, the whole of them would not be so important as the one of the definition of the franchise. It ought not to follow as an indirect consequence of the double appeal. He proteated,agaimt giving the Judges the power of decide ing questions relating to the elective franchise. lie won dered the Member fsr Montgomeryshire did not almost start from his scat when the Noble Lord had proposed such a proceeding. He should like to hear what reason the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tasnworth could give for assenting to such a proposition. That Right lion. Baronet had taken a great interest in the question of the trial of election petitions ; he had introduced a Bill on the subject, and he had utterly repudiated the principle of allowing any int, rference in matters relating to the elective franchise out of that House. He would ask him, how it was that he was found among the supporters of a Bill which robbed the House of all power of deciding on the Irish franchise, and transferred that power to the Judges ? How could he consent to de • volve on officera appointedby the Crown the decision of ques tions relating to the elective franchise? How could that be done consistently with maintaining the independen ce of tits Judges. It had al ways b een the wise policy of our ancest ors to keep the Judges aloof from all questions re lating to election matter'. Far be it from him to utter any reproach against the Judges. The Bench was now much purified, but he would ask every one who hca'd him whe ther, tif,er any political trial, the character of the Judge wh o presided was not called in question ? Was it not con statstly asked before a political trial what were the politics of the Judge who would preside ? What was it that tar nished the character of almost all the great Judges of for mer times ? The imputation of political corrurtion. He did not mein to say it was just ; but it had been made ; it had been imputed tr Lord Nlausfisld---it had been imputed to Lord: Kenyon —it had been imputed to late Judge .% would not now enter into the ques tion of the justice of such imputations, but as long as pa liticel questions should be brought before Judg -s for their decision, that imputation would be made against them, and therefore it was their duty to keep all those questions connected with the decision of the elect franchise apart from those Judges who we e to dcci le on our libertiei, our lives, and our proeertiee.—( Hear.) Would anybody verrure to say that the only exception they intended to make to that wise rule was Ireland—that Ireland was the only country in which political feelings were so moderate, and that therefore they might safely leave the Judges open to suspicion ? Now what was the case? Why, in that country nothing could be kept pure from party ; the laws in Ireland had never been an; thing but a means for the rich man to oppress the poor.—( Hear. ) Lord Redesdale had given that account of the administra tion of ju•tice in Ireland. Could anybody come forward and say gravely that there was no noti in of political par tiality in the Judges in Ireland ? There was no doubt the Judges were equally honourable on both sides, but did they suppose the public would believe it?' Now what had been the language of the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter and the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire ? The Member far Exeter, who was a; calm and plain a speaker as he bad ever spoken to, had talked about the clearness of the franchise, and about majorities and minorities, and he had laid the thing down so clearly that no lawyer could deny it ; and after that, he could not understand how any person could think otherwise than that the mince ity of the Irish Judges were the most foolish persons aiise.—( Hear, hear.) Ile only mentioned this as pointing out to the Huti:e that men speaking in the place where they usually spoke with decorum, had ventured to justify imputations on the Judges. The Noble Lord the Member for Noah Lancashire had said there could be no doubt about the franchise, and there was an end of it ; and his Learned Friend the Member for Exeter had said it was quite clear, but be (Mr. B.) would venture to say that his Friend had made his statement intelligible to the House by leaving out the most important element, namely, the authority of thp House of Commons.._( Hear,) In all ewes where there was an appeal to the Judges, the Judges had the power to enforce their authority, but here the tribunal of appeal was the House of Commons itself.—( Hear, hear.) Ile would suppose the Judges of the Exchequer Chamber were to decide against a Judge on some point he had ruled, and he would suppose that the decision of the Court of Queen's Bench was against him also ; he was not bound by that if the House of Lords was with him. He would put the thing more plainly. He would suppose a Judge going the Circuit in which Losigford was, and he would sup pose that a question came before him as to the right to rote, and that the opinion of the ten Judges deciding against the right was produced; and, on the other hand, that the decision of the Longford Committee, which placed the man on the registry, was also produced, by whom could that be decided but by the Appellant Tri bunal, which was that House, and which would continue to be till the law sai I otherwise ? Gentlemen might say that the decisions of Committees were conflicting, bat they were the constituted Appellant Tribunals; and ho would ask, was it in a Judge to decide in the face of that tribunal ? If it was not a good Appellant Tribunal, let it be altered; but he must deprecate such rash measures as the one introduced by the Noble Lord. He was sorry to see his Learned Friend the Member for Exeter joining in sneering away the reverence due to the constituted authorities of the country. His Learned Friend had said no English lawyer could stand up in that House to decry the. provi sions of the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lane ishire. Now he (Mr. Buller) did not attach much weight to the opinions of English lawyers, when stated in that House; nor should he, until ho saw a lawyer get up and state opinions contrary to his party.—( Hear, hear.) His Learned Friend had said that no English lawyer, of any reputation, would venture to throw any doubt upon the question. Now he (Mr. Buller) had talked to an English lawyer that day, and he had said that he did not believe that any candid lawyer could get up from the reading of the Iri s h Reform Act without being in the greatest bewilderment, and whose fault wan that ? Why the Noble Lord's. They had therefore no right to cast imputations on the Irish Judges and Bar risters. He objected to the double appeal to the Judges, because he thought it bad, and secondly, he thought im portant quest:ons ought not to be brought forward in au indirect way. The Bill of the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland decided the question in a direct way. Oa this account it was said the Gobernment entertained opinions of a revolutionary character. He had never supported the doctrine of the finality of the Reform Bill. He thought the Reform Bill, like all other human measures, contained imperfections ; and those imperfections ought to be cor rected as much as possible ; but he thought they should not touch lightly the distribution of the elective franchis6 ; they should not be constantly tampeting with it. He did not say that no changes should be made, but the charges that were made should be settled and distinct ; that they should be demanded by a large portion of the peopl 1, and should be based upon some common principle. This was the rational doctrine of finality, and having adopted it, the question was, how it was to be dealt with when the provision of the Re form Bill would not work? How would they fix a new test? Ile would say, the Reform Bill contemplated such a right of voting, and let them try to obtain the constitu ency which the Reform Bill intended ; and if he under stood the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, after much inquiry, they had found that the 51. - franchi ,, e would give such a constituency.--( Hear, heao ) He bad treated this question as a simple question of the registration of voters, and the sole question they had to decide was the simplest and most convenient mode of registration. He was using no exaggerated language when he declared his belief that in 1688 that House had not been called upon to give a decision that was pregnant with graver con sequences than were involved in this decision upon that Bill. The House would not suppose that he was induced to make these remarks by a desire to support the present Ministry, because he felt perfectly sure that if the Bill should turn out the present Ministry, it would bring them or a very liberal Ministry back before long. —( Hear, hear, hear.) They had seen enough of the fate of great po pular measures to convince them that a Bill like that when once taken up by the great parties who had pledged themselves to it, would become the banner of a great popular movement, which must eventually carry it. But he dreaded the policy to which the House must com mit itself by adopting the line chalked out for them by the Noble Lord. It would be a retrograde policy, marked by all the worst features, attended by all the most horrible consequences of a counter-revolution.— ( He tr, hear.) He was not ono of those who had hitherto anticipated any thing very terrible from the accession of a Conservative Ministry. He did not suppose that it would be guilty of the madness of a retrograde policy, enforced by violenco as it must be.—(Hear, hear.) He thought they might trust to the discretion and prudence of the Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tam worth ; and much as he had heard in reproach of that Right Hon. Baronet, and the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, he thought that he had always seen in their conduct traces of feelings and opinions which raised them far above the Tories of old.—( Hear, bear.) But Le said that it was the fate of those gentlemen to be come, like many bodies of parties, the instruments of the worst purposes of the worst por ion of their party. " For, what is your purpose now," said the Hon. Gentlemen, address ing the Tory side of the House, " why, simply and plainly that of re-establishing the old Orange ascendancy._( H ear , hear, from the Liberal benches.) I am using no mere terms of abuse, I merely am using the words that explain my own meaning in the amplest manner. Your object, (con. tinued the Hnn. Geotleman with great emphasis) is not registration "—( Hear, hear.) That was not the object on either side of the House. It was ridiculous to talk of it as registration. They had not been brought down there by an abstract love of registrtei ;n Hear, hear.) It was not registration which crowded those benches, and suf focated them all ti , l the hour of division ; it was because those Bills must decide a great question as to the destruction of political power in Irelald. " You came down, (addressing the Conservative benches) to support your Bill, which, by restricting the franchise, still place the electoral power in the hands of a small body of gentry, and will re-establish the old ascendancy party in Ireland ; and we came here to support a system which by keeping the elective franchise where it now is, will leave with the Irish people the choice of their representatives." He had said that he did not mean to use any terms of abuse, but he declared that he did not know of any other mode of desig nating the two parties in Ireland. Until the generation that had suffered, and that which had flourished under the old ascendancy party, had passed away, there never could b' buttwo parties ; the one, which was called the Orange or as cendancy party,striving by such measures as the Noble Lord's HT to get bock the power of which the Reform Bill had de li,: edit; the ether, the poNtd er Catholic port), eudea- This was the real purpose, to keen and to exteud the % , AIM, v had. however it might be concealed. ic You tell us (said the HQO, Gentleman, addressing the Conservative benches) that you want to prevent improper persons from being placed upon the registry, and that you want to have voters of property and intelligence. We all know what you mean by improper persons. You mean those who are elected by the people in spite of the aristo. cracy ; and we know what you mean by property and intel ligence —you mean the gentry, whose abuse of every right of property and of every political power which they have preserved, has been the cause of all the sufferings of the Irish people."—( Loud cheery.) Hawever bold they might be thought, he would not disguise his thoughts upon this subject, he would not be led away, as gentlemen on the other side efien were, by the threats which were used as to the Irish and English gentry being in the same boat. With all his love of popular power and rights he should be as loth as any man to see the influence of the Eng ish gentry diminished ; for with all its faults it had in the main honourably and usefully exercised the rights of property and individual power. But, admitting that there were many individual exceptions, he must sey Oat he could not admit that the Irish gentry had used their rights in the same way. He viewed with horror many attempts which were made to give back to the Irish gentry the same power which tney had before the Ref ,rrn Act, and the Emancipation Act, because he felt convinced that they would use their power, as they always had done, to oppress and degrade the great mass of their fellow countrymen. —( Hear, hear.) It was for that reason th at he viewed with horror the policy assumed by the Noble Lord, be cause it seemed to hint that if he was successful it would re-establish the ascendancy of that party, which had b een kept dow n f or t h e l ast s i x years. " And now," (said the Hon. Gentleman, addressing himself to the Tory benches) I want t ) ask you one pr , ctical question. Suppose you succeed in re-establishing that ascendancy party--suppose you pass the Bill of the Noble Lerd on your side of the [louse, and reject that of the Noble Lord on this side, and thereby give reason to suppose that you arc deter mined to enter upon a course, the remit of which will he to re-establish the ascendancy party in Ireland, what do you think will be the practical consequences ? It is easy to pass one Bill and perfectly easy to reject the other; and there is not the slightest difficulty in enforcing any law which you may choose to rake on this subject. But do you think that there will be any moral weight in your decision ? Do you think that in consequence of that the Irish people will tamely give up what they have ga'ned by the hard and long struggle of the last 20 years ? Do you suppose that there will be peace in Ireland until the one Bill is repealed and the other is passed. You have a habit of thinking that all these things are settled by divisions and elections, and that if you g sin two or three elections in the one case, and happen to have the balance of influence upon your aide on the other, you think that by such means you can re-establish the ascendency party in Ireland —( Hear. ) I say that this is riot is question for votes, but for arms to decide— and I tell you, before you come to such a decision, to look not merely to the physical force and temper of the Irish people, but to the circumstances and position of our foreign relations—( Hear, hear)—which (continued the Hon . Gentleman, with marked emphasis) you may find to be very intima.ely connected with the question.—( Ex pressions of disapprobation from the Conservative benches ) lam perfectly prepared for that disapi robatian, because I think that these are topics to which we shoull allude with great caution.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo sition benches.) But I think there are limes in which it would be perfectly childish not to allude to them—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—and I think that this is one of those ocerei arts, when every person, abroad or at home, friend or foe, speaks of the alienation of Ireland RS a notorious fact—when our enemies build their hopes upon it and our friends view it with alarm." Ho (Mr. Buller) must remind the House that after all this was not the first time that these considerations had been advanced in that House.—( Ironical cries of " Hear," from the Oppasition.) It was not the first that those considerations had influenced the I.{.,rialation for that House. They must remember that every groat improvement which had been made in the condition of the Irish people, had resulted from the ope ration of those considerations.—( Hear, hear.) How was the first great step pined but by the armed and menacing attitude of the Volunteers, and by the progress of the Ame rican war. When was the elxtive franchise granted to Ire land ? Under the influence of the first terries of the French Revolution. Above all, [Low was the Catholic Emancipation wrung from the Legislature? Why, it was not owing to any alteration in the temper of the House, but it was owing to the fear excited respecting the dispo sition of some of the Irish reguneets, arid to the armings and trainings of some of the peasantry. He would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite if they could have a better case than the history of the passing of the Catholic Emancipa tion Act, to show them the utter folly of gains at elections and in divisions in that House? On the general election in 1i126 the "No Popery" cry was raised wi,h so much effect that at the close of the electian the Catholic advocates found themselves in a minority, and yet two years afterwards the Catholic Emancipation Act passed the Legislature. He called upon the House to reflect upon the possible consequences of rejecting this measure. He did not wish to • exaggerate. He spoke with perfect calmness and perfect gravity. " And God knows," said the Hon. Gentleman, " I should regret such a result as much as any body." But they ought to look at the tem per of the Irish people They ought to inquire whether their physical force was less now than when doggiest yield e d to it ; and above all, th e y oug ht t o inquire wtrelifer that was a moment when they could afford to alleviate their afflic tions. He would dwell for a moment on one point which he thought had not received the attention which it de served, namely, the entirely altered character of the Irish people within the last forty years. The Irish people were not then the cowering, de ; araded, and disunited serfs:which they were at the close of the last century. They could not be goaded and driven as they were at that period._( Hear, hear.) Then, though they had the same courage as now, they had no organized leader who could direct their energies. Since that period the Irish Catholics had become a people. They had been or ganized by the most skilful and popular leaders that the world had ever seen. And by the agency of the most powerful priesthood in the world, and they had been attended with constant and unmeasured success. It had been made a matter of reproach to the Irish Government that, they had admitted them to a share of power. But he rejoiced in the circumstance. All these things had tended to raise their character, and they could no longer be oppressed with impunity The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to speak of the progress of temperance among the Irish people, and argued that it was a great development of their moral power. He also referred to the power exercised over them by their leader, and contended that this made them a formidable body if oppressed. The oppression which they bad so long,suffered had raised in them a feeling of resentment, and their causes of discontent were not countervailed by any great love for the English people. Nor could they be surprised that this was toe case. It was impossible to deny that the English Government had oppressed Ireland as much even as Turkey had oppressed Greece. And though a more liberal course had been pursued during the last six years, there was sufficient in the language used by a powerful party towards them to keep up the re membrance of their ancient wrongs. They were described as savages and as aliens; their representatives were de nounced as perjurers ; their religion as a grovelling and mischievous idolatry; and the priesthood, whom they loved and venerated, more perhaps than any people in the world loved and venerated their priests, were described as sur plicel ruffians.—( Hear, hear.) When he saw a party using such language as that—a party that had never willingly granted anything to the people of Ireland, which had always supported every measure for coercing and dis franchising it—though he might regret he could not com plaia that that people had relaxed none of their ancient resentment. What would be the result of re-es tablishing the old ascendancy party in that country ? He did not allude to Irish insurrection, because he thought there was no danger of that, at least during the life of tire Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. The people of Ireland had been taught by him the great secret of resist ance to Government. He had taught them that the insur rection which was most effective in coercing a Government was that which never broke out but was always to be ap prehended.—( Hear, hear.) This might be novel phrase ology, but such was the fact. They had been accustomed to permanent insurrection in Ireland, and they bad found for many years that it entailed upon the Government al the precautions—all the harrassing anxieties and all the expense of civil war, without having any pretext for treating the people as rebels. What will be the consequence of the ascendancy party regaining the ground which they had lost ? " Why," said the Hon. Gentleman, " that all the good that has been done for the last six years would be undone, and that you (address ing the Conservative benches), upon a Conservative principle, will succeed in re-establishing all the ancient disorder, and insecurity, and terror in Ireland. You will again have the sympathies of the whole population arrayed upon the side of crime and the criminal, you will have to preserve the peace of Ireland by double its present g irrison; you will have every form of opposition that pub lic opinion, public meetings, and petitions can bring to bear upon you ; and you will have every popular institu tion brought to bear upon your unpopular Government. And what course will you take in these circumstances ? Why you must have recourse to a coercive Bill, and sup press every liberal institution, and every expression of public opinion in that country. —( Hear, hear.) He ought then to ask how it was that he touched upon these topics? But lethim ask whether, in the present state of our foreign relations, they ought not to use the utmost caution ?—( Hear, hear.) He saw with feelings of the utmost horror the indications of rupture on every side. France still assumed a position calculated to create feel- ings of alarm ; and in America were to be foundStrOn giti di,:ations of the same feelings which led to the late war. He had a great dread—a deep horror of war, but the warmest advocate of peace must look at the signs of the times, and prepare for a contingency. Such a tine was one that called rather for conciliation towards the Irish people —it was certainly a time when they ought at all events not to exasperate them.—(Cheers.) They might want the cordial support of that people ere long—([-Tear, bear) —and certainly it was nut a proper time to excite their feelings.—( Hear, hear.) Ile was not supposing the con tingency of invasion—( Hear, hear)—be did not think that was possible, and if it should happen he hoped a better feeli.ig would be found among the Irish than in former time's: But they might want their cordial support—upon the Irish people they greatly depended for soldiers and sailors.—(Cheers.) It would be bad policy in them to excite a feeling among the Irish people that might deprive them of their services in the time of danger. He ssould not have adverted to these topics had he not thought the dan ger was extreme. He thought it was right to look to these considerations, and that it was a fair argument to be used upon such an occasion. They ought to have all the feelings of the people on their side should war unfortu nately assail tho country.—(Cheers.) He was not wrong in dwelling on the advantages of union ; be was conscious that was a time for healing►, not wideningdisser-. sions among ourselves. But the policy of the Noble Lord and the Gentlemen opposite would put Ireland in the list of foreign and h ost il e nat i ons ,—( Ch eers .) Thi - irc was one thing to condole them, which was that tile Toryism of the t'Cit 'fa day waa characterised by very great tirnitiitt, though, it again in power, there would be none sharpeo. But if the House .could judge of them by heir past conduct, they would go on with their present policy just so long as irritation in Ireland did not menace them with convulsion—(Cheers) just so long as they could avoid war, as they did in 1828, 1829, and 1830, by truckling to every Foreign Power, pat alised as they were by the state of Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) Bat the instant the danger came, the iustant the war threatened, the in stant the convulsion broke out in Ireland, that instant the frail fabi is of their wretched policy would crumble into dust, and the rapidity of their concessions would mark the folly of their present course.—( Loud cheers.) And fir what were they encountering that certain present mis chief, and Umbra humiliation ? They might suppose the dangers were not so great as he represented them. He wishei he could think so, for their own sakes. But he could tell them that their present insane policy would not bear so hard upon those whom they now hoped to supplant, as upon those who might succeed them. Was it because they might succeed by their juggling in gain ing a paltry dozen scats in Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Ten times that gain would not make up for the execrations of the Irish people which would be showered upon their.— ( Cheers.) The events of the last six years bad shown how quietly they could live under a mild Government, and with how little of justice they could be conciliated.— ( Cheers.) Had they from the first pursued the course of common prudence—had they even given them the same degree of conciliation which they had afforded to the Hindors —(A laugh) bad they respected their prejudices had they conciliated their leaders ?—( A laugh.) Had they conciliated them in the same way as all popular leaders must everywhere be conciliated ?—( Loud laughter.) He meant to say all popular leaders except those highly di inte►ested Gentle men whom he saw opposite, who had never cared fur what he was going to mention—by the power, influence, and the emoluments of office ?—( Loud laughter.) Had they conciliated the people, above all, by conciliating their priesthood ?—( Cheers.) Had they attached them to their country, an every wise Government in Europe had done, by paying them every due respect? Had they done that, it was only to be feared that the Irish people would have been too easily put off._ ( ilear, h rar.) Why was it they had always desisted from that course ? and for what was it they called upon the House now to deviate from that great cause under coni.ideratini ; for what object that common sense did not laugh to scorn, and common humanity and justice did not repudiate with horror? The Hon. Gentle man sat down amidst 1 , ud and continued cheering. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, did he think that was a mere :Ilene fur ora'orical display, he would:gledly_bave given a silent vote upon that occasion, and have left the answer to the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman to some one abler than himself ; hut as the question under discussion was a very important one, lie begged to be allowed to state his sentiments. When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman commenced with his legal arguments, lie (Sir J. Graham) did not think it would be his duty to follow him, and certainly he attached some importance to his legal opinio❑ ; but it was consider ably diminished when the Hon. Gentleman, in the can dour which he boasted, said that no lawyer would express an opinion against the party with whom he acted. In the excess of his candour he ascribed censure to the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, for the intro. duction int ), and the continuance of, the system of regis tration in lielaud. His Noble Friend demurred to that statement, and with much justice, for bath his Noble Friend and Lord Althorp most distinctly stated that they left the system of Registration as they found it, until they had some experience of how the system worked in England. Then again, he wanted to fasten upon the Noble Lord an immutable preference for the appellant tribunal of the Judges. Now he denied that, for his Noble Friend had distinctly stated on several occasions that he would take any tribunal that would be more impartial or more trustworthy that might be suggested. 'lka again, in the excess of his candour, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman suggested to the House that the Judger might be tainted with political feelings, and lie had not thought it beneath him to assail one of the justest Judges who had ever adorned the English Bench—viz., Lord Mensfield.—( Hear, brae.) He had also taken oc casion to assail the Longford Committee, and while doing so he was happy to see him cheered by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Yorkshire ( S:r G. Strickland)—( Loud laughter)—the Chairman of the Hull Committee.— (Ulcers.) He rejoiced in the allusion, and the more so as those tribunals had been put an end to by his Right Hon. Friend near him. He would not have fol lowed the Honourable and Learned Gentleman into those topics; if it had not been for the excited nature of that por tion of his speech with which he concluded. He quite agreed with him that the question they were now discuss ir ; wen one of the very utmost importance. He doubted, however, whether questions, even more pregnant with im portant consequences, had not been discussed since the Re volution of 1688. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman went on to say that many and pressi;,*" rounded our country, and that it was impossible to view the shadow of coming events without much anxiety.__.( Hear, hear.) He ( Sir J Graham) very much doubted the dis cretion, if not the patriotism, of the Hon. and Learned Gen- ticman, in entering into such topics on such an occasion. He must state the impression which his speech had left on his mind, and he doubted whether on the Corn Ex chang,! at Dublin, at'any time, a greater stimulus was ap. plied to Irish discontent, even by the turbulent spirit of English Radicalism.—(Cheers.) But it appeared to him there was a similarity in the speech of the lion. and Learned Gentleman, with the speech of the Right lion. Gentleman the Secretary at War, with which the debate last night concluded. The attack from that side of the House, being sharp on the measure of the Government, They had thought it expedient to shift their ground— (Cheers)—and had argued not as if the Bill of the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland was the subject of discus sion, but as if they were debating the Bill of his Noble Friend (Lord, Stanley). The lion, and Learned Secre tary at War, was no lemy great orator than an experienced critic, and he designated the Legislative effort of his Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire, not once, but again and again, as a childish effort.—( Hear, hca-.) No doubt the Right Hon. Gentleman rejoiced in a giant's ' strength, and might consider the puny efforts of his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) as childish, but he (Sir J. Graham) thought his Noble Colleague, the Member for Yorkshire, with the experience of last year, must have discovered that this was a very troublesome child. (Cheers) Last year he endeavoured to smother it almost at time birth, and this year he endeavoured to change it at nurse.—( Laughter.) lie ( Sir J. Graham) was quite sure that if the Right Hon. Gentleman would make just such a speech as he made last night in some future debate, and give his Noble Friend an opportunity of instantly re plying, he would discover that this child could hit some what harder than lie expected, a-id that he would also discover th it his speech contained something more than light conceits and impotent puerilities. —( Cheers.) In the eagerness of the Right Hon. Gentle man to attack the measure of his Noble Friend, a speech whi c h was prepared for the second reading of the Bill of his Noble Friend, went off at half cock--(Laughter)—and could not restrain fire for the actual division or the second reading. He (Mr. Nlacaulay) promised not to go into details—not to touch the minor features of the Bill, but by an oversight the greater part of his speech consisted of attacks of this description, and more extraordinary still from the manner in which he treated those details, it would appear that he had not read the Bill of his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley). What were his two points ? His first argument was contained in a dissertation on the tor ture of annual registration. Now this torture, if such it was, was carefully prepared by the hand of the Noble Lord the Secret try for the Colonies, and whatever the defects might have been of the original measure, they were carefully counteracted by bis Noble Friend; and the Right Hon. Gentleman had overlooked the provision of costs in the case of vexatious objections ; and to show how the Right lion. Gentleman understood the measure, he illustrated it by his own vote as a Member of the Uni versity of Cambridge. Ile said if he were called repeat edly to Cambridge to defend it, he should farego his vote from disgust at zilch perpetual vexation. Why that Bill of his Noble Friend provided that if any voter should be on the registry, ho should not be compelled to attend to defend his vote, but that he might employ any third 1 1 party to defend it—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches) —and that it should not be in the power of the objector by summons to compel his attendance. But he now gladly paused.—(Cheers.) Had he wasted the time of the House ?—( Hear, hear.) The speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman was made up of detaiis, and he ( Sir J. Graham) would rather follow the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed them, and deal with greater matters. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that the rule laid down for the franchise was the essence of his Bill, and he also said what he (Sir J. Graham) confessed fixed his attention still more on the measure, that this Bill was in the spirit in which the legislature of the eJuntry ought henceforth to run. Now considering the vast importance the Right Hon. Gentleman attached to the vital essence of this measure, be must be allowed to;call the at tention of the House to the late introduction of the vital principle into the measure of the Government.—( Cheers. ) Throughout the whole of last Session the Government had thought it expedient to keep the subject of the franchise totally distinct from that of registration. And what was their conduct at the commencement of the present Ses sion ? On the first day of the Session, while the intentions of hie Noble Friend were unknown with respect to the in troduction of his Bill this Session, the Secretary for the Treasury took the first opportunity on the first day of the Session, of giving notice, on behalf of the Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth), of the introduction of a measure to amend the law relating to the registration of voters in Ireland. On the 2d of February his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws rel,ting to registration, carefully avoiding all notice respecting any alteration or definition of the franchise. On the same evening after that division, when her Majesty's Ministers had made up their minds to support his , Noble Friend in bringing in his Bill, then, and not till then, was this declared to be the vital principle of the measure, its very essence, and that which gave it life. And, undoubtedly, in the great attachment of the Right lion. Secretary at War to this which he termed the essence of the measure, he had hardly announced he so considered it, before he declined (such was the effect of open questions in flu! Cabinet) that it was quite open in Committee to deal wi h the 51. qualification, or ev -a with the term of 14 years.—( Hear, hear.) But he would now proceed to state, as shortly as he could, the strong objec tions he felt to this measure, and they were so strong that he agreed with his Noble Friend ( Lord Stanley) that if he stood alone, he would resist the seeJnd reading of the Bill.—( Cheers.) It appeared t' him to be framed solely with the object of adding numbers without regard to the principle of qualification. It had been stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Woodstock that this principle had been at all times recognised by the law of England, and that the difference between the principle of qualifi cation in counties and boroughs was, that in counties it had always been a fixed interest, or estate in land yield ing profit, that constituted the qualification, and in boroughs, occupation with residence and with payment of rent. Now, this Bill appeared to him to be entirely subversive of the principle of quabiication in counties, and he could not see that by tae propc,ition of a 51. ~ aivation without payment of rent and . ; without prat, the prineple fecognizpd was at once overthrows.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") MORNING EDITION. b c He conceived that with respect to cou nties there m o st ° f some difficulty, as, under the exist i ng law tl:e lint constituency was diminishing ; but with resp ect to, ‘.ittej or boroughs, there was no such e xcuse. If t he y is that diminution of the franchise in cities and borougno. Ireland, he would ask—he would appeal to th'' 35 , Member for Kilkenny, on what principle would ber ~013 je'ty's Government resist the extension of that dinine of the franchise to England and Scotland? If th..r e , Lord and his colleagues should say that in Ireland the cupation of a Si. house was a sufficient test cf the reef 4 tability, th e property, the independence, and the st outs at its occupier, he (Sir J. Graham) d id not Coc what arguments they could prove that a 51. oeeuP,lee E gland a n d Scotland was less trustwo rth y than tioio c ler of a 5/. house in Ireland.—( Hear.) 13ut t ti conceived that the object of the Irish Reform fiL rt , respect to counties, was an addition to the freeholdeito be sessing the franchise under the Act of 1929, sn d ° fa leaseholders possessing a profit equal to the amount , freehold. The object of that measure was to exte ri n . e l ' f ; basis of the franchise as it is existed in England ac extol ire' land ; but it broke through no principle which th i s o f 1829 h a d established. It did not render the influnee,be property subservient to Members, and thus degriortiod station of the elector. Ho ( Sir J. Graham) c that he was always of opinion that the real principlcluairot elective system was stated in the clearest and P s is manner by the highest constituted authorities ~Ydeo Fox.—(Hear, hear.) That celebrate d man 181 s birb ° that that was the best system of representation c;e,. admitted the largest number of independent urner tors, and which excluded the largest ,siiisesi of those who, from circumstances , we re not ea tc ,. tea to exercise the right of voting. It was upo n tha'_,,e eiple that the Act of 1829, and the R eform Act, ct,ise,i quent upon it, were passed. He (Sir J. Grahten):l),ost with the Hon. Member for Halifax ( M r . C. NS W , ihe words could not be found more clear and distinct tli t „or words which established t:.e test under the Act as stood. Ile ( Sir J. Gralaern) did net think that doh'' stood. nition of the franchise was necessary. He agre ed t th e Hoe.r. Gentleman that it was a great misfortune t' a , s f s he majority of the Judges did not take the definition (1 , b o t, law, so as that the minority should agree with th erfl o jeeds at the same time, if the determination of the )sc at, be should diminish the c mstituency to any gr eat r i t scdt bll l would consider it a very serious evil. But he eon I wo re that evil should be made manife.t, and thoughrh; opinion that no remedy could be ente rs4 ,. c" itere s , l did not place the right of voting in the P r "'i depo D7 that would give a state of security arid perfect 11 ,0 eGneenetlteomtehiei,dienletghaetecsouorfsrcosfpetchteable voters. Se ~e f o r re° should o w t i a a s t t h u a e n n e do a e l n s r rl e i y e d i L i o sa c f ev o u t e u s h s n a : toy: countsy Mayo, Parneds t e lhi n' e l e tt i s (4 t f i e sa ci t'ci t 't' r ";) , : s t s' b ' 11) , 1 0 e: constituency of y u e l f a 3 t s i i e o a v y n e:ll f ° 3r tu f e l ri r 1 11 d A ree't voters ? It so happened that when the Irish lee t f :V , the ward in the debate, and Mr. Dominic 13706vcsnber'°$111:°)Iteb:" represented Mayo, made a motion for an additions 0 est her fsr. that count y. A numerous constituency al ra rr w e ' t a i y un s nA a di n e,ry i n to d ba c em p 4 e cio n us le tf n erd t e etciolool,l:dszit:lotruciacon:cch:in; franchise the ,qtr. 13r° " f e num ber t „eta to that numerous constituency, ail the proPri et s er gsaih erh county had an absolute power to nominate O.' the co' but he (Mr. Browne) went on to state that sch en ees stituency, in consequence of the Act of 18 29 ' 5 ,,cetli cr duced to 700, that power of nomination ba d 6 d t here ceased. The constituency was independent, a n d e lse' be was no combination of the landlords to put sods the tors. But was that all with respect to M B T. Y TT . ° T sts' c , 3aNnsooobt,loheoe another remarkable b o u r Lord t w t i h t h e r : sfp,ccetl Member ttho a far thtehi er North c populationeLn adnee independent tof e teoh3( , e s w ocro ' c i Stanley) told them this most striking fact, t hat i'l eltP l3c s e' 1831. the year bef,,r3 the discussion alluded tl i re bi there had been rfn at destitution and distress i sl ,o and to such an exteet that out of 3l be d i pba lief tants of Mayo, 225,000 had either ree e ' vers. or applied for relief from the Goverement °,. w as $ ( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Solinto'rsle-50tstnitIse(Ti yet made to the remarkable statement of which showed that the number of acres in Gro tt o; 0 13 was about 34 millions, occupied by 350,000 landl cir , ecc g. that in Ireland the number of acrs was 40 mili i( ? u ,: i des e ' pied by 659,000 lender-de. By a remarkable coin'orsgo in each of the holdiees in Ireland there was, er'9,?,:ss tbs ° , about five times less the numbe of played 1 " e ; r 0 (O h l " in each of the holdings in En glandem-and the P ri9 es ` the number of voters in eachgcfthe;countries so same. He would then e xplode the arg e in ee ,, t d a ftfe,°, b : s urged on this subjectto the small by the Hon. and Lesr ts '" for Dublin, relative all amount of vote"" o reh e ' population, unless the test was to be plac ed ,. e in e) th at ( s t t b i 6l and not in property. It h as o f ten b een put d'es - o , g io ps i .t Opposition) side of the House, arid he would., again to the Government, did they entertain the si'g - t he oe- i ? that they had the least chance of earrYtnift,,petb/be s l u t r a sprhoephohseerd moreby the nor lessN obl t e h L e opriday(ieLgoordv,..enr: a a game of the appropriation clause.—( Loud c' e rg eOe'' trl N ooco o gnk b ai , I :t e rr aLlTieoofrhnedenyadi in d his colleagues now felt that 01 %4 tacked a h le e r: e l l sadehr Ireland, y andtha e n d hin fraudwhat tdy W w sa h s i c et h ibo co e x dcsi t o : judorog e wo:hb t h . ii ,e0,11 , f they well knew could not be fulfill"' sirloPtie-d to virtually perpetuated these evils. T he a ny 0 % 0, such a measure in Ireland would eventuas, its extension to England and Scotian", ber that extension of the suffrage the supporters 0'00605 jesty's Ministers had urged in the shape f f D e : f o t constantly repeated, and as constantly refaseo-Tattscr,, was yielded in the most dangerous quarters, IlltieseesTedie gestiun of the English Radicals, but of the Iris , ' d be ;0. He should state shortly to the House wh et b e s t G ec i l e' 9 ; ro e su would confidence e nsnrHfiscodtetoeurf dwell Majesty'sticwi h eee e di l c ot o fuo concessions the cibocHn but within n House Government, d e c a sr d u e ffi ci b i riwn y : uent t erath h t o r par .00 0 , nof:s etb e :e a th ay . eng come to the conclusion that they noier'reeerri • on, k business of the country with advantage, recta vio-th a supporter of her Majesty's Government, o f If° bei ng her for Preston, made a motion that uo• should be extended to the counties of Pn ' la l bell ' one half of the sum now proposed for Ireland. ithctieT/0 Member for 13ridport made on that occasion a n d ti'Lt if heal to the Noble Lord opposite. He r epres e : o d t" - ole distress of the English Radicals was extreme; 0 - o for lu f ; s ra the measure was rc,istcd, it would be the In e ' T e . e bb , : s it' day that had ever c ome . H e s aid the at t he " o rt must give t130.n soma popular tlPi e 1 . .1 logs —some ground on which to rot ea u ,.. i li• of the Government, and if not, the GoverninTe:'b longer reckon upon the support of the EnV,,, etr A '` tb 3 at m measure au e s t l oudillt.dgeo Hon. .t ac h ‘ e rs i so t t i 12;:, eoe b rh e dla r ies f tt o iLi nrinoeSitrddh promisee, a ffi wn e h l o d d ao w tu a btshtthiasuettiil:l roit rer - tuelro,:r i e s t t hio ; e s s would be induced to give way—that tico" d tbo nod ti p hill a e r ein ty wi ts ,i h e o h in he he h a a t d te d ir e i fi p h te e tto th l a e t ad it w w e a n s t bien.));:aibibelcecti°o the together, and it was, therefore , in eu ",,nde l ' in t he Noble Lord to give way. So the Sessio n " t hing (Sir J. Graham) thought it probable that se o '. e s s usr ee eb way of concession would be proposed, hu t „ a l ci the Hen resolved themselves into certainty when be the do' made at the hustings at Edinburgh ",' h4 t °C j i v t ° Gentleman the Secretary at War. On te the his constituents x t Honourable eiinseiot whn those Gentlemanssotefha principles, I was announce d e i a?, freely aa f S o c r o t t l h a en avowingdc. Hon. Gentleman had tell eite c ti n e:dole h li fs 'tfoa : a e nt e ndi tleeih e rilea r bet e dio,niitie i htt I C' t f;f3r 1; 111::°:1 ,, rg ; 11he made an open question. And now, the 13 ' 1 ; 0 f open question, they had arrived, in the our mouths, at this rapid progress of tendering $4,5 . e 0 0.hlee for the counties in Ireland. He would ask; ' to the ‘,.." that Irish concession grade? Why, disliflet ll ,, io 1 1 °He and Learned Member for Dublin, and t° r t h hin l ;,,teen (Cheers. ) The merit of the measure vils cc i e ish h' e to originally proposed it in 1832, when th e 5. 0 0 t ia3 lco' Act was introduced. He had pressed it f ur ore eel be time, and it was occasionally resisted Witt firmness, but it was his measure and his sugg;„ et ese'r r de' (Sir J. Graham) had most evil forebodings if i t " to oth ° „ L ir What was the present concession but the first stlowlecrolc. mends which had been frankl • avowed and acl e 00 1 et 's He would give a short summary ) of them , an d sl id n ee Ps the House to pause and deliberate before svaerned to them. The first object of the Hon. an d ' c od s ss '‘ i e i ber was to secure the tame franchise in '4ll reerti6;i4 land ; his second was an alteration of Oe se at tb the i epresentatives of the three kingdoms' and tb oe to the proportion of the population be rej A c i be T on represe itati ves o f I re l an d in that House "%rid 1, sat e eumber. The third demand of the WM ula oo he° Id Gentlema n — an d w ith ou t which there e° t here 1 , 14'' in Ireland, and, so far as he was conc erned, o f tee no, be none—was the confiscation of the properttY..... t he ee,tbs testatit Church, already reduced 25 per c e ,!l e h the C as e% cation of that property to public uses, in 91 " 12 $ a pret c 'oec lie might participate in common pith, t a nd L' Ca ' oi rd . Thee were the avowed objects of ths i Z iyr s e h o ar t p c in G nie e sd n u t n l e e he m er a ste n, ,,,(tid an ?u, d lka t e h ni e d r o e fh w asde e p e ar others he a io n n o not :po 'n k ea:a eo t f l' e l o;, ":tr a i r ‘ .. g ; Belgium, and Switzerland, edeee?l, with populations infinitely less ))than Irelsn u L upo' to But it was in vain for him to define the seer et „ P od re!, jos the lion. and Learned Gentleman; but he ° 1... .. of h l 'oer. the House a much shorter and clearer expo s ition co od oo tio , tentions than any he ( Sir JIMe3 Graben ) so d V o lc- The words were uttered by the Noble Lord, ced Ge toe , scribed the intentions of the Hon. and Leerr t he W oo man in words which he should now read , sus e . fr, The Right Hon. Baronet here read to thc i' *l,lO island speech of the Noble Lord (J. stated that all that was taking pin ee d Me l % an showed that the Hon. and Learoe til l 00 , objects and views were neither more m ar l. • e n is 0 0 • t ono . bc t attempt, under the name of a repeat of .0 disunite iu der the form of a separate Parliament, t t, a nd t ", Russell), I be Of counties—to overturn the United andParliamecolosoon' Jr. tablish, in the place of King, Lords, hie h the H a nd the United Empire, some Parliament in e a Kirig , To t, and Learned Gentleman should be leader _als`„jeoous in which no doubt he would play a most O n a r o iogl,/ to but in which it was impossible to go on _ fo w l. e° in without involving the two countries in 11 ev ejts i ti " et ri at 0, the c° . o f the extinction of one or the other, but loss of that power of public opinion hewsw e%posilsed had h therto been governed. Such t des i g i rl ione* the Hon. and Learned Gentler-panic seenrcsed on 3' coe d int nrions which the Noble Lord had ann°n ntico ,est se bt it The date was 1832.-( Hear. ) Hon' b ut h e "° 1 cc; to teink the date made ( some difference de the diger : oli ! was the principle and the conduct that ma c wools arty' and had there been since then any chang thstPas,sr'its give greater confidence in the intentions.,_Te wo ve _ e c t , s ) The Government now had t the control of of —andth e hc Hon.w was sn astonishedLearnedt h A a l t e m h b e e r r iv f l o a r ie n set u y_ l , : ; o ll : 3 l c i n i i i r t o e p r ob s e e i d r tamely and recklessly submitted to ssbut edsatti:tiol upon them. —( Cheer!. ) If he was . c_ • O 9O ! c o . concessioes, hie surprise as gro „. , ,, e d 'Y ;e: pa b gr rO eas U ie t: .:l l t : il!siytsatioNheoil;liNeo agitation lgFe.ritiaeLtnidooard( Lin o o r i p . L o ll s: g l ut a l e " .) Otto •I