The Sun. — London, England, 1816-05-07 00:00:00

I present two e.;:.,f ii)flslitis.ents—one fur laic Male . st una for the ? There is .100 litany' public ofth.t•r, not the Lords of ae died-eh:tit:bee to, his MaitietY bidders ,of "teat sinecures, aod shri k e' 'of ltls Royal tress the Prince Regent neatly !'au‘c As tti olie regulations nI exptlices of the Civil LiSt fn ; the Iteport of th . e. COnnnittee of last yent, he saw a warra n t in which his floYal ilightmse reconi Wended, or rather ordered, the three Conlin s shiners already named to lay before the Lofils of the Treasury, at the beginning rat each spottier, aceoUnts of the expences to ,be incurred, and at the end of the so:hi:qua:ter, accounts of those Miich hi n t really bren'ineUrred'. had ''lace for a time. Bat from October to• January : 1 816, no such estimate hod been given. Some lanoosal was midehtood to have been made to the Treasury, of which they dill not apprOve, - tuid in consequence Lord Hertford had refused .to eive,,in his estimate., The Treasury were going to Oppoitit a person with power to examine Lord llerttord and whets On 'Oath ; but why should such a person be worthy of more confidence than ' 11 !Y other, since he would he; like the test, a set vant of time Crown. A llinute of the lieu-` kitty, dated the 23d of February,. revealed the subject of that disPute, the real nature of Lard Hertford's application. He seemed to have nuked, that Brighton having heal added to in paint of land, and furoittire, the ex , pence should h e defroved out of the Civil List.— The rreasuey had refused ; but • at last came to this compromise, to apply, or rather to misapply, DrOiti id the Admiralty to that purpose. He then reiol the Minute, clirreting that the thAciency t) th e Civil List be paid out of the Droits of the Adatirah y : Winn 534,0001. had been paid I,st year, ut that eery mnitient there ‘t et © 493,0001. in Droits of tile Admiralty in, the hands of the Cr• , ,vo. Why not apply them at the lime, or at least set tlnin against t!te deficiency of 277,0001. this rat.? The i :A•1 of Liverpool and the Ghttti cellor of the Exchequer, had represented to the trd, 'hat the Prince Regent having made great ' ad&r . i.boc, to his resid ; ence at Brighton, which 'was orivatt ;mroperty, they were of opinion that an aid of 20.0001. snottld ire granted him, towards .eo‘ering • hose expenses, out of the Droll.; of the Admiralty. The same statesman - had recom . kended a grant of 50,0001. out of time .same hut", to. pay for the furniture of the residence at Brighton ; which, lawever, they. stividated 3lmuld lie recognised as furniture of the Crown. 70,0001. tbui came to light, us the result of that 1 1 i0 teas Moting:The Droits of the Ad rttirillty were public money ; for though the Crown bat) the firs. disposal of them, vet the Crown must give .to aCCOLii!‘ to the country of the Mall soar in wuich they were emph , yed. Could any one , *appose that fifty thots . satid pounds' worth of furniture could he wanted at Brighton ? Out of the 493,0001, of I)roits of the Admiralty, a 4:1 7 lance of oral}' 207,,0001 remained. It the fifty • thousand pounds and twenty thousand were de . - ducted from it . t h t"..re would be only - about 110,0001. troth it won't! probabiy he orged that a considera ble slim mast ht . . kept to guiril again st the elainis Oi co:•tors. kese, however, must:diminish every thy, hte nice Inwe urged the propriety of ap. poi ,t]ng a Committee, and giving it , power to exa m; nei•Nons and i.emmtl tor doeutuents, Dila he trust. • ts votes ott his side would be MinterOna. The Right Hon. GentL:opin then contended, that the Iltiogi'ng forward of the question in this way mettns of lirin.ging ille.C.Town into disre.. slnet Tbeyasserted that'nwhing was so insult ing to time .public as any disettSSion Oa the Civil 1.46 t,, and therefore they stopped the expenditure from beingknown. 'There could he no 'Objection to-a. Committee beiog appohoed to exauiine into tat those details ; he did not: trislm . to have the Crown degraded in the eyes of &trope ; but the way of P;iying tradestoen!s debts was like spewing. to all Europe that the Prince Regent was a person 'tat fit to be ti asted with the disbursement of his °Wit money, truth time indiscretions he had coin rn4te,i. If he (Mr. T.) had moved for : stteli a Committee, he woultrhe held up as a Jacobin . , labouring to vilify the person and character, of the Vrioer, lt could nut but he teillellibercAl that his Royal Highness felt extremely Sore at the eondnet, of Mr. Pitt, for holding him up. when a yoUng man, as a ptrson nut lit to be trust-. ed .witb honey; and' the same feeling might we,ll be supposed to influence him now, tinder Si. milar eircamstances. On the whole he could only, rejoice that •tcps were likely to be taken for keeping the expences of'the Civil List within !)ottods'; for it had always happened that when ever Parlianient had couple libel l advances for this brand' , tif :exneoditure, t 1, is very liberality had. been Made a pretence for asking for something more. But at. this mimic lit the comma try had every „claim on the Lloose for pkting in practice all possible cconifinv, and no means should be left •outried to shew the people that it deierved their •confidenee. rJe concluded with declaring that he should' not have thnoglit he had duty, if be bad refrained from sayin , all that bad taller from' him on this Object. Fie, thet'efore, 'would tut) % e, that a Select. Committee be appoiutcd ;to inquire lilt() the ll'ixpetnlit tire of the Civil List, With power to call before it Persons, Papers, and Records. If. he suceeed.ed in obtaining this ()h -im, he woulthnext movetlint instructions be given to the said Comtpit tee to ingoire into the Expel'. 4liture of the Droits oft be Admiralty., • - Lord,CtsTtAtteaoti wasted, after what had been ,itaid on this subject, that the Hou s e would allow Lim t o ealltbeir attention to the leading points in. the, Right 800. (itietnan's observations. As the Right Gent!eman.had, according to his 'usual. practice, nittile a sot t of personal attack t t po'it i " 4l , he shotihl lake an oppor. tinity to repel the : i:harge ; hut iii candour to that itight • lion: Gen dental], rte mgt declare', that there never wad. a 'speech td (midi ,took a mitre illiberal and prejudiced "" nt the w)rolely,tem,ot. a mute imperfect one of the question immediately before the 1-I , use, moltiOie itqvot. of agitkitiOttifthfhlOt of the liberality of the eotititty—Menr, hear 9, and to undervalue every attempt Which Ministers had Made to e,unply with site wishes of every Committee of the lioto.e to lie wished tlr'lfonse to turn their hacks on tins ettvtOpt (Lauhter), as olle itt an invidious .no., ture, ai ti to cOnSiiL:r • ti!e tint*MlOn whether the Tonne© offered wes vropt:r to be adopted. Ile at:- ciise(l the Hon. Gentienon of IttiVingtohlly ini•represetitt what :.„i cr on.an,toralcir'evetkirig t o r m,:o :ilmr he l oo t the LiStS of othei cony: = iu coin!ouisol4 except for the purpose of - 0 miir Nit:WV 1111.1 Crown Itt flits count-V, twit its Monarchy, conipAted with' otheri„ was not -ex pensie, hut vas grafted on the tl•ue Npait of our Constitution, which wt..; anijou4 for its and sp!endour. On whnt relloed to the Inc:tease thefloval the Riga Hun. Get4t;eman bad aglin miirefiro,ented him-. This did not de , pend on any economical disprisitionton.the part of the So v,-; eign ; it tdepended on Providence whe ther the Itoy7ll Pogeny should be more or lesS therefore •he had separated these branches from the general expenditure, because if• the expences of do..junior tiratichcA of the Royal Family were to be cOnsidercd, oiw mast not go to the situation of the unfortunate Monarch, for whom au establishment was provided, hut to that of the Prince who exereked his authority, as All the expellees of the Crown were founded on this department. Those in the sth class were the true expellees , of the Sovereign of this country : they amounted to 490,0001. a year, ai►d to this only ; and not to lte sum which the Right Hon, Gen tleman had stated. His statement ,had therefore a tendency to inflame the opinions on the ge neral question, and justified an opposition to his motion. lie proposed to refer these BAituates . . to K Cointnittee but a Committee would be to ineol.;petent to examine, into the minute de th;s gut-lion ; they would either under take what they uulcl not execute, or they would make chewselve. re , Hro , ible for the whole ex pellet's of the Roy:t . l wi3hed the lioioe to understand the nature of . the question retro spectively, HMI see whether the "expences grew our of the Household, or (row those expenditures which were avowedly connected with the public service. ..1 . 1113 they would do by eaulining into the exceedings of the Household for the List four years, beyond those for the preceding seven years, up to 1811, and the exceedings 'of the public ex- penditure. The increase in . the expenditure of the thin' blass in the last tour years '‘vas I 69 ,000 t. above the average of the seven years to This was a matter that exphineel itself to the for this csoontry, (hiring- thole seven yen; 4, Thad hardly any intercOlirse with the' Continent. The exceedings.of the 4th and sth Class amotilit io the four years, to 184,0001., -which was 46,0001. a year; petting both Chasse, together, mid out ot which was to he deducted the,expenee of the Princess Charlotte's EstablishinenL The Right Hon.• Gentleman would now institute a Sixth Committee, for4liere bad already been five, who had all reported in great detail. But till the objections of the flight Min. Gentleman would be fotind to relate to this 144,0001. he, how evex, was giving most improvident counsel to advise the Crown to he tied ti,o w it toe certain sum ; for it was impossible to make , a bargain to carry on the public service it its expences were not to by met by a proper provision. The excess in the neeationtalliaentents was 748,0001: including the 160,0001. in the third class: Thoi a debt grown up I!l'.lte last four years ot about 00,0001.; but out one fourth part of, this had grtlWll out of the household eXtleneeS ; and if the Prince Regent had not been obliged to mike the eqn.pment , so much spoken of, there would not hate been this exce , s. In the tirst class there' bad been it re duct iron of 14,0001. The second elasS, whiCh comprised the salaries of the 3edKes, never varied. The third chits, which related. to the Ftareign Ministers, had increased in the average by about 92,0001. The gross increase was 178,0001., of which the 92,0001. had entirely geowu out of our foreign relations. The cause why these charges hail so increased Wits the change that the whole situation of Lorope had undergone, and not any thing that had taken place in the household Este, blishment. The occasional payments must there tore be taken i n to view, when comparing the ex pencesof the last ;and, presentlear. The Noble Lord then repeated many of the arguments and details he had entered into oa Fridey evening. Reseecting the expellee* of 'Consuls, 'he said their expencrs lust year had Amonoted to about 40,0001. hut it was the present opinion of Government, that the whole.estahlishment could in let tire be maintailled for about 30,0001. A yeer• The 96,0001. was me tilt to cover the expellees of the Leird Steward's De partment ; and it,was not right to argue that every future expenditore twist be the same. There load not been more cxpeuce incurred at Brighton than was absolutely necessary for the comfort and splen dour of the Illueteious PCESUA living there, and it was in a greet degree goveined by the intercourse be Was; obliged to hold. Ti tu s the expeuce of Brighton was AS necessarily attached to the ex pellees of the department in questioo as were those of Uarltoti-house. 'The fair. way -to consider the apoist:on atlas, how the Lord Chathherlain could conduct the expences , of the-Crown witboot com iog to-Parliament for arrears, and he apprehended that cutting dowit the Stint proposed- woniii he only laying the ground-work ornew incumbrances. The 16-:ght ,hooutirable Gentleman had endea- . toured to represent, that the expences iit lit ighton had been a wanton profit ion of. the public nitie ney ; but any person'. who knew whet Brighton aeats some years ago, could not expect that the Prince should live there now as he did when he was a young man, as it was necessary- that he should now receive all who had intercoerse with him in is pioper manner. The'Princeßegent was the only person exercising the Sover ,- ign power in. Europe who shad not.ie . variety of residencee, but except. Brighton he load not a single: plaee to which lie could go with proper comfort and splen dour, to enjoy the recreations of life. It was. ,nottnerely the furniture but till the tither fi flogs trp - which hail reqeired the su n s ill geestion: He justified . the. application of the sum - from the Uroits of the IWiniralty, which was just as !noel) a pnblie bertlien , as if Pad latneot bed s o led it, and trusted the House would trot he intlueeced by the Hight Hon. Gentlemaii's sweep- . _ fire; charge, of these being 534.0001.. fur ap rears of the Vivi! List: When Parliament gave tree 100,0001. to the Prince Regent in 1012, it was for the put-dose of liteuidating the 14.:T'eare - of- the !hue when tie had no a lioivance . except' as Prince Of Wales, end it was impossible to 'make' lies uquipnient withoot anditionelcherges -Tim Noble Lora then adverted to tart: expellers in wt4ich ate voncerned wh.le ant. that fi.ey Were . , :;crr3lAtily illlctl - ka!111i1 it) AttiEe, lire; - Kiva , fully warr,„iiie4. tl4 cif - of the virile. He deoi'ed that Lords Stewart had tittyli employed as s Ist him at Victims : threy had come there in ills :harp- of their public duties as Ambassadors to toe Sovereigns . ho had repaired to that capital t he iocrease thetie ypences were partly at tributable to, the depreciated value (4 It Ut eV, - iti , hich obliged theth to disburse about 1:',01. to obtaitOhe value o( every 1001, Witli reapect to himself, every rail of the etpeOces of the other Ministers was drawn through hint, and Oat of the WhOle 43.0001. incurred hy these missions ) it won't! be found that -23,0.00 i, was all the proportion connected with himself He hadticen on three missions, >n that the average was only about 80001. for each. Ile was obliged to make long journeys, and to carry with him a large establishment, having not less than twelve persons'attached to blot. for the business of his Office at home, lie was not conscious that there had been any splendour in his department; and be was obliged to appeal to the good nature of the persons who saw him, to excuse the want of it. He trusted the House would not think it eipe dient. to travel out of the usual grounds, to enter into whine examinations• of the eipeneei o f the ktoyal Family; this was not necessary in order to have a clear view of the question, for there was such a mss of 'information already oat the table, that no new Committee could thrOw any light upon it. There had never been any at tempt" to refuse information to the Right lion. GentlemAti, Rot• ever an account which (sad riot beta granted w:th the utmost liberality, trhert asked for by an Address to the Soveleign. It Was quite impossible that a reduction - could be made on the expellees of the Clown, without an injury to the public service. The whole a mo u nt o f the increased charge in four years, did not exceed 1e10,0001., mid he was confident that if the equip-. meat of the Regency, and the other extraordi nary circumstances hail not occurred, he should hive been able this day to have stated, that there had not been any exceedings in the Lord Chains berlsia's Department. The Noble Lord, after repeating many of his arguments, concluded with expressing his hope that the House would not institute any enquiry, except by way of an Address. Mr. CALCiiiire could not agree with the Noble Lord, that this question was one which ought not to he pre .sed oil the attention of the House. — If what concerned the people and the splendour of the Crown was not aii interesting question, lie k ne w not what could interest them on any octets snot. The question had now'grown into one of the greatest, importance ; for after the investiga tions of five Committees, it had been found that every Estimate, hoNever great, had been in a few years much exceeded in those departments; How did this happen ? Was it found in any other of the departments of the public service—in' the Army and Navy Mitimites, for instance ? The reason was, Ow the House applied them seises to this subject, and enough wax given for the s,er required. Ile should • be the , last man it) ask for explanations relative to the Civil List, if he did not 'Set: t h at s till intiniry was totally tut availing ; audit . the House did not go into the investigation, he would not believe that A ItiAit vote for it this night, wild not think that in a few years the prhent amotort of arrears would also be exceeded. — Th em e was Ho mole indelicacy in investigating this than any other department of the public expendi ture ;- and he would Say, thilt if the House were , e in earnest in Th eir wisnes for economy, t h e y Ought to begin the examination of . expenses in the highest qttar:ers.--r-lle alludt:d in te i lo o f censure to the ground which had been alleged for the diminution in a part of the estimates oil account of the fall in the price of provi sions, contending that such ground was absurd. an,wer to what bad I,teen said of the advantages that had accrued to the public by the alteration iii the hereditary revenues, of the Crown, he said he would undertake to prove that the nionarch would not have been so well oil by retaining them as he had been by the annuity that was voted for the Civil List. To go on adopting these estimates iVi l l.ollt Nil investigation, waS giving tray to the (Heim of Ministers. He defended Mr. Tierney (rum the charge of invidionsness, and saitl ‘ he thoilgiA the disclosure of 50,0001, having been taken from the Droits of the Admiralty in' one sum, for furniture, the most extraordinary chmitance that had ever happened. There 'seas no occasion for any new auditor, as suggested by • the Noble Lord. In his opittion, - the persons at. r e a dy in office were folly competent to the task. lie was glad the Noble Lord had explained away what he had Said, as was" supposed, about this cpuptry being niggardly towards its Princes, by contrasting their income with"that of the King of Frauce. an ab“dute Monarchy chos4 to throw as great a,burthen as it pleased oil the peo pie, it . veits no reawin why we should give the Crown More than bad for years been found neces 11e, Wii3 of opinion, on the whole,.. that the inquiry . w proposed waithe only one that as likely to answer the purpose. Mr. C...LoxaT justified Lord Castlereagh against the cliargt of hating represented this goestion as one not iuteresting to the pablic. lit. had said he was afraid' the details would itot be interesting to the lionse, but that he tlioaght the question ryas one of the greatest interest to the country.' This misrepresentation was certainly lateniional, but a more direct one was never. nt. lr. The re a son why the Estimates in question were. ht..):4! :erroneous than those of the Army N:lvy was obvious. , o,t, latter were hroaght hefOre the floose every year ; but this wks not ti:e citse with the Civil List. There had 'hevil VAiti tnates of the Civil List si!tee the present ayees slon to the Throne, The Right Hon_ Gentletbau then took a view of the -efforts of himself the: tither Gentlemen who had been charged with the examination of the Estimates, with a view to their diminution ; and adverting to the (lialinotion of 139,000:.,, he declared that they had taken the:greatest pains to investigate the subject. from the sole nonive ilf'nn anxiety todo their ditty. Ile I bought (hcl'e were: Iwo matto tab defect, iti . the I.4itgetnctit with respect to the Civil List: the - first was the practice of 'giving at fixed iiiitOine to meet certain charges which were constantly vary. ir.tg their arntl nut ; end the second Was; the ~ero :e thiltcontroul it, which those who wetlfielo res4ionSible for the' eXpentlittire ;:vhielt o ogot rake ehAce ought to possess / The 'varia tions in the ef,arges threw': . on Very ~great..:. Till bitterly„ Tice' printing ~f Horses of Parliament was ch3vged Ott tn! Civil List. first, estimate for p his service, was 10,0061. tip to 1803, .it bad never leached. 20,0001.; it was taken off the List in Ibo 4, atid the eipeoce for prioting for the two- floitses;' w a i now h. twecn bO,OOOl, and 90;000i, : Was ti suhivet dt.bere son.e The disbursemen:s node to Porei ; :;n 111inis.teri had increased tront-10,0001. to 130,00111. Unihr these circumstances, iitithiiig could be etpetned but what had Occurred—that the Crr;wai %Ito - Uhl he, compelled to -moire to yarlianient tO•rgain the means of discharging the debts on the Civil List, The seCond defect which tie hail noticed,-. sortie considered to have been remedied by Mr. Mike's Bill; but he denied that that measure had had the desired effect. He opposed the proposition of the Right lion. Gentleman for...taking Ministeri the framing of the Estiniates, as he contended this went to take away, that responsibility, and consegitently that coniroul; which ought to rest with the Lords of the Treasury. The etiurSe which theltiglit Hen. Gentlethan wished to be pursued with respect to calling for perions, pa; pers, and records, he cotild not approve. It was an innovation on the establiahen forms Of the Raise, andfroin these he thought nothing that had been Urged. in the preieitt debate Ouglit to in tiuce them tri,depavt. concluded by expre.- ing himself most decidedly in favour of the' of his Noble LCRAFr eXplitillett. IIr.WYNA:tt. COttiphined of the r e p e a ( pd a pp e ,oi made to the liberalsty of Parliament, erbeit Crown had the means of meeting all the demand upon it out of funds of its own. He disapproved of the Droits of Admiralty being applied to the . building or enibellishing of private residences for the Sovereign, which he had it in hi* newer hi give amity 'to boint: favourite , . to-niorroW. lie should not object to, their beiug applied to meet the expences of repairing some of the public pa laces which belonged to the nation, and could not be alienated. Ile thooghit it of importance that the Ilonse should know on, what principle that minute had been determined open, which declared the residence of the Prince at Brighton ought to be paid for ntit of those funds which had becti appropriated•to the Royal PalaceS. He was sur• prisedat the charge of 50,0001. that appeared in the estimate for new furniture, remembering as lie did, that last year, when a Charge , 'of 30;0001. tinder this head Was objected to, they Were told that did furnittire which that sum Wits to pay rot had beeii . stowed 'up to meet some filturc occasion, and that consequently, the country would sustain no loss, at such an expence would not soon occur • again. The charge ro bleb 1L;: had adverted appeare;i . to him of a very objectionable • nature. In the present situation. of the country, an additional scrutiny ought to take place Wine any c lona l charge was' incurred. The CIIANCELI.OIt 01' the EXCItt6VER WlS!led ti say a few words upon the 5 wbjvc; Of Droits of Admiralty : it had been Charged agaiast - Gavel ' ment that it had been gtiilty of a breachoi . its duty in coming, ao wihen. it its • hand a large fund that ,diglit L devoted to tat' Cis it List; 'rot' appliealde (tut. face of'tad coonts- -appeal - en so or: *Zri NUM. ; btit to it a note was appended', whi , :h. the Hn.,• G. otleman seemed to havemverloolted, that it ated " that there still remained variOus claim:: of cap:. . tars kis, rewards not yet deierioinvil upon ; this expeoces on .cOnsienmed pr'opesty - , stud other con. tingencies, . to . 'the iiiptidatitin of which the .277,0001. will be applied." In fact, alto d e d uc ting the 50,0001. for Brighton, aud the other sums to be pad out of this fund, the- disposable balance would pot-be found to ext.:oo3o,oooh acetirdinK to the statement of the proper ailleer. cad the Ilouse not to forget what large sums had al. readybeen paid out of the Droits of Admiralt y total amount ofpayments last year was 950,000 . t0f • which 44,0001. had beet; distributed in navy re wards, 390,0001 . in discharge of the inctouliraneei on the Civil List, variant small sums to the Con. , 'solichted Fund,2OANL for furniture; and '2-0,0001. for the use of the Princess Charlotte; So thartha amount remaining was • exceedingly iniignifiennt.. Ile Wats convinced that there was no lemndatiott for Elie complaint that Ministers were unwillitvo produceaccounts : they had always been ready to give all useful information, and tO remove all 'ntredless jealously as to•tbe application of the money, It might not to be . forgotten, ttist Ids present Majesty had applied one utillion and a half to oc:service of •• the public out of the Dvoits Of - Alr.,Titiar , :av,very shortly replied. He persist. ed that no tiern,l ought to have 'twit made upoo Parliathent to supply the . dctieieneic* lie the Civil List, when the- (fruits of the Crtiwri, as; w hick there 'still rOttiained a strrphts 'of 277,0001., might have been resorted to; I.k insisted that sufficient remuneration Isad not. been givo.lt to that naval captors, %:? The cIIANGIit.LnR of the EXCIIECIVnit answer ed, 'that a much larger grant ltii I3ecn niaai - t() the captor. ditring the last two years tlCatt had beenct4,toinary tluripg any (ornier year. diviiion then tool t place tlion 14tt .14otiOn a Cowmittee, whens the nttalhers'werl4" , „A Fes . ; ; qi3 Majority akennst tfi tdininn.... --Di When thelery was agalh' opened,. Lnrti FOLKSTONE wits Jo his I . evq — oriposing the bring. 'mg kip or Cliff itcpott of the Bank ltestriction. Bill. Ile concluded by infiving, dint the adjourn.—On'th‘ining there appeared— , For- rtinAtijoncantettt Against, it \Ve understand Mr. !Sennett Meet' Wartli Malted flit:. other Orders nt tile Day, with an intention of dividing the tion:e, when the ChaticellOr tit the Exol4,(ltter comieoteti- to- pli , t pone-the Report Ate , the Bank Restriction Bill to Vifctinetilluy., 14 , trit Ltt 11 P. AG hr0.,00 . in it Bill for bi- , t,t4. TigniatiOg Ci‘R , tit's reitt4' 4l4 . 4 d‘treil to be teal i z•ecood liEtit .iii ~( f l onday: 'rue other tittkrt ti,e Day wit,: aisisase , l of. • and actittliipast•Tivelve thy iluititt jourtied. F