The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, he believed thet since the Reform Awn the Protestant service had never been celebrated in soy one ot the eight Parislses he had alluded to.—(11. ar.) The It ish Church; notwithstanding all the support it, lista recd ived. hid completely felled in carrying out th-• obj etc intended by it • It never would carry out that object, tied he did not therefore see the propriety of k + ping it up. Ref orms had been atter-opted in that. Church, in order to failed in doing so. These re,torm a had b •en pr , pos• d and eirried nut by the Right II •te 13 sr >n et the Meade r for Tamworth and ode rs ; but thy hed all totally ,ailed, That Church e a ts , t eere c ore . c •nceired to be a burden on the p eop l e of Irel.old. and while that idea 11f prevailed prevailed among the peeple, there was no hen- of its eyer bein g rendered usitul to teat country. He held Ithat the relit o f th e ma j or i ty oi the people ought to s e the religion of the State, and as such supperted by the t ! u e; and in support, o' that doctrine he quoted the opiniou of Dss. Bailie, Warburten, an , l Arnold. It sees, however, said Oast as the Act of Eldon had made Ireland at? integral portion of this empire, that it was the reli !", of the majority of the three ,•re e e end, and Ireleud—thet ought to deterentue what *l3 to b e I steac t e a t ,—Scotland, !ver, was the established religion. That, how not a proper ground to procee , i upon, for if they admitted the princip'e of giving• the sup the of the State to the religi-in of the majority J- 16 P eo ple of England an 1 Scotland, why could they re fuse to ex ten d t h e same system to IT e i irt? The present s y s t em o f ma king the priests of t• th u e ill" Catholic Church in Ireland so depend: Pc sale was the m eans o f ca u s ing thosetd t upon' Pr l iests se to . ewpathise with, and to further the prejudices and opt tialnats of the pee le while by placing the priests on N at o i. 's ependent footing they would obviate that evil. re who had p tid any attention to the history of Ire. s a , ncl i could fail to have seen the bad effects of such a ' le m. It was said that the Roman Catholic clergy teen did not themselves respect the law; but had they not respected th e law, Ireland would hive been in a dif ferent state from what it was at present. No doubt the "an Cath o li cs of Ireland were, as a body, disaffscted, a d i ll ' no wond er t h at they should be so, while they saw a urch established amongst them, eating up the re sources of their country, while the great majority of the I ) , ° °Ple rep u di ated its doctrines. By appropr i at i ng t h e e venues of t h at Church for other purposes, and do i ng C aw h a u y rc hwith that s ec t ar i an feeling which, while that th prev Establish ment ex i s t e d i n Ir e l a nd, would still they would be conferring the greatest b ene fi t on wail, People of Ireland. a S a ir G. GREY—I w i s h t o re li eve a t o n ce the anxiety 11U apprehensions expressed by the Hon. and Gallant inelzber for Middlesex, that the Government would, on this oc cas i on, move the previous quest i on; for, h owever 4 may differ from him in thinking that there may be °Ce( "i°°% on which moving the previous question l is lo t o h k e r ro Per way of meeting the point at issue, t . when is made, ii_.t the circumstances under whidchoethisanmdothe object he ! h e particular effects co nfesses_ . be has in view, itmay o p n ro ot think this question one in that manner, and, as lam not which can b© met . H pre- Pared to entertain the eu. and Gallant Gentleman's , l'iSti, I consider I am justified in at once voting against t he M ember motion.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant "Aember warned the Government that they were not to e°ll gratulete themselves on the present circurnstincea and condition of Ireland. That the circumstances t t4 condition of that country are not such as - a n "fir a prospect of unmitigated satisfaction, I a e 'Ple regret to say I concur with him in s ir a !' s i ng- Oa the contrary, it is one which it is itnpos au; I , r any person to contemplate wi. hunt deep pie the te z r et ; but at the same time I am unable to tee in , e motion the Honourable and Gallant Member has ;ought forward the slightest hope that it would remedy the social evils, which are the real evils at presstit, of t r t !',ti c. , or that it would facilitate her improvi went lieo*ottl,leralistened with attention t i the specter of the latiedonudtlb4n. Member tor M. (Mr. Moore). I must say •v,•r but little ii l l Y sUppo:t of the tl Gallant G eet t arra. , Hon•iurahle 'A plan. The H nourable Gen itima a elt i l ( e l u i l r e . t N e t ,i )( t 7' ).s aYe a he tit pert;the ' motion becate:e aisle political d ° remove domestic grievance and diaoi Will halve a t,,ndiszontent. I, on the contrary, think it l o revive that atai e a Y ea t i " excite domestic discontent, and anyes' in Ireland at '''''l l lietu to of wnich we have hornier the Period._ Ls present moment than at able and Gallant es (Rest, hear.) The amour time of the ii we-ratter occupied much of the 1 Pressed by eta' "so in quoting sentiments ex- Governnsee„ 'rent Membersof the H ruse and of the to ei, on ti.,:_ . r-f q . to the 0 e n , i s qustion, an I he did me the honour t°l'it PlaceinlB4i)4l ."11 I expressed in the debate which silenc e on our , adding i hat th; re had been an eminous that lreno th part fr om that pen iod to the present. and °t the ita, e time when my y Noble Friend the Frat Lord the Irish C a ' ur y brought f orward h i s motion respecting s aid re, h Orch to this, th e r e h a d never b een one wor d I I ills •pecting 'that question within the walls of the 1 4 , 1) , a Net which he declared it to be his intention to efter eli the te em' try of Governments—( i fear, hear.) Now, i n th e the research of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman lecti, e ,P a ges of Hansard, and after all his pains in col of o g ee his w ant suitable to his purpose, I must complain d Galla nt -alcit !memory in return. The Honourable an inl a ' R„ --entiernan seems to have forgotten the debate eca "" , which led to a protracted discussien. On that „ senet kul I re peated-the opinions I had expressed before tootle e4 a o tly such as he, in order to recommend his ever n t° the House, quoted them—but such as I have hearreteined and now adhere to on this question—( Hear, itaa L 'C n amely, opinions against the policy, the justice, other e expediency of msintaining in Ireland, or in any Stat e count ry, an Established Church endowed by the 0 , that Church being the Church of the minority. herst, Stand cries of s• Hear, hear," Zion.Mem . ' ear, from several before but have repeatedly expressed these opinions there , I now ask the Hon. and Gall int Gentleman if tnen_ of anything in this plan of his affecting the endow mat . the Este.olished Church, or is there any remedy G zned in it for that grievance? The Honourable sad allow" ember, in humble imitation—l hope he will poses me to say —of a greater man than himself; pro at, following out the plan of Lord Stanley, who, them th ere Were twenty Bishops in Ireland, reduced „ to ten, we s h ou ld re d uce t h ose ten to five.—hear, ea) r. ro , seta, doe s h e pr o p os e there sh ou ld b e any en ticAwnsent of th e R oman C at h o li c C hurch ? Cer artily 'pt. the But the fi ve B is h ops wou ld st ill b e en d owe d b y But as th e Bi s h ops o f our E stati l is h e d Ch urc h , an d Idt'idou a ld enjoy t h e Church revenu's; and. so long as they b°, the questi on , w h ic h I have: repeatedly expressed I nY belief to be a question not of money but of feeling, would remain untouched.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman also forgets the subject was dis etissed at the close of 1848, when I must do him the jU•tice he forgot to render to himself, in reminding him he brought it before the House it, a speech on the gene ral state of Ireland, and when I stated in reply to him the views I have- always expressed on this subject. But , n . akayl,w while n this subject, ask the Ron. anti Gallant tiendeman when he accuses us tit' changing our opinions Why he has changed his plan since th• n?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman talks of a ciimpro raise but there must , - se. be two parties to a coinpr , imt ~ that his is in the confidence of aild I have vet to learn s this Roman Catholics ot Ireland, or that this plan of his will remedy a ll their discontent. I must remind the ll 'l- and Gallant Gentleman, when he says I have rn sititaitied an ominous silence on this qu•.stii•ti since 18 44, that ou the 29th July, 1848. I spoke as fellows:- 4 ' lam u••t prepared to deny, but to affirm, that the ex istence of an exclusive Protestant Church in Ireland (the Protestant Episcopalians b ing a small minority itsly of th e population) is so anomaily unjustifiable in origin aid indeten-able now. I know co other coun try ,- r Eurnpe i n w hi c h t h e same exper i ment h as b een '1 u e —in whi c h t h e same attempt has been carried out; "ad lam quite p repare d to say that the wisdom and lisheY of the att empt i n I reland must be condeinued by eresults." I w il l not troub e the 11. else with repeat l_ may mor e o f w h at I then expressed; but I think I e ns: said enough to exonerate myself from the charge ` ; , ll %viiag pre serve d the ominous silence of which the tua, el. and Gall ant G entleman accused me. L king back, however, to the speech I delivered in 1844, of Which the H on. and Gallant Member has given partial q n o ta. bt tions, l eav i ng out the pith of my opinions—l no expressed myself with respect to the facility of 'i measure to redress the grievance and remedy the evils .complained of in terms stronger than I would now ado pt—(Cn R . p a aa s eel's ) When the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir of m a ' i intr o tue , 'd hi, Bill to increase the endowment ynooth r and - qualified the opinions I expressed in 1844, said that whil st I hailed. the measure as the first step , towards removing what hscl beentlt to be a stigma and insult I did not press it on the Government to advance he least degree further than they could go with a psrol;pect of suceess.—(Hear, hear.) Since that time the e u t ject has occupied much of the attention of her Ma -38 re Government. They have anxiously desired to the a renaedy for the evils of which they recognised existence lima, but when the Hon. Gentleman the r for Mayo 'M Moore)says the prejudices a r. of the people of this country are an obstacle to the satisfactory settlement of and that lion, ,s the question, e Members come to this II )use prepared to vote against their consciences a in deference to the prejudices of their constituen ts, other . I must remind him that there are grounds coned. I of difficulty besides those he has men must remind hitn that one groat bar to the set tlement. of that question is the avowed, and repeated, and determined resolution (as far as we can judge) of the 1t... men Catholic hierarchy, and of the body of tto ta , a great the Catholic clergy and laity,nut to consent to any scheme by which their ` (Cheers.) We are. • L Church should be endowed.— when when the Roman ca n t t n n i tin. toe same pesitton as we were for admission to the civil were petitioning Perlietnent were unjustly debre-red" c iorivileges from which they but I believe a mistaken! Z n 1. we have a strong, honest, country and of Scotland, e Le . g among the people of this Rernan Cstt olio Church, waghTsa the endowment of the of the hierarchy and clergy we have the great body against such a measure.---(Elear.) ‘tv7heurch protesting be the case I ask myself, is it worth while feel this to opinion s w e may entertain, to panp„se a ca h , ll ,a , whatever nien Would give rise to great animosity, contentiosnureanwd de bate —excite much opposition, and which, insteal of bein accepted as a boon, would be rejected by those for whomg We asked it? I am not prepared now, therefore, any More than I was last year, te go into a Committee of the whole [imam with the Hen. and Gallant Member to cripple the re sources o f the Established Church i n Irehaid, and with the view of taking that mutilation only as an instalment, leaking, as I understood him, to the ultimete extinction and abolition iif that Church alto• L,.. e tliee. I sh a ll not go into all the topics a de ence l b y we Hon. and Gallant Gentleman, but this I may that - s ay , with regard to trust property I am not prepared t? go the length which, according to him, Lord Brougham a _ljt c. in days g one b y. He said the property of the Church U. d the. pay of the army were on the sam e fo o tin g . bet Mr. le OABORNE.Sir James N.I sekintesh said the e thing.—( A l aug ' i ) Cr. GREY --W hether th e H on. an d G a ll ant Mem quotes the Nobl e L or d correctly I unable o or not am Bay , b ut, whet , ow lord Brougham or Sir James lekintosh said I!, I am not prepart.d to agree to the p:iiiciple so broadly laid down. I am, however, quite prepared to cl-aw a distinction between trust and private property,-and there arc Acts on the statute4 , oolc which sho , v that Parliament hai exercised the right 41 istli , g for trust prop , rty, and of msltir;g r,gulations wit regard to it which they would not make f.pr private proper LION MEMBER—What of Lord Lansdowne? GREY—As to Lord Lensdowne's geestion, as , ee country ma de e:r the Church, or the Church r the country?" I have no hesitation in sayieg t believe the Church should be made for the country—that the only object of its establishmPnt is to teach religion and to watch over the formation of the morals of the p-ople—and that the Church which fails in this must fail in everything else.—(Rear, hear.) Nor would I rely on the sth article of the union us a bar to the moti , n, any more than it was a bar ma a former oc casion when the Noble Lord asked the House to go into Committee on the ..ilinrch Tempo-alitiea Act, though I r-gard it certainly as . O . ppnsing a bar to the absolute ex tote,ion of the E.tablished Church in Ireland.—(Hear.) The lion Metnoer said very truly, if we were allowed to Fe:iglu de novo no one would think of establishing in Ire. land such a Chuteh as exists there at present; but I must recall the Hun. Member's attention to the difference be tween the original institution of a Church end a Church which has existed or 200 years. The Hon. Member (Mr. Moore) alluded to the past history of that Church, and said 't was written in characters of bLiod ; aed, speaking of the horrors which had taken place since its first establishment, declared they surpassed those of the invisaion. But I could hive hoped the same feeling which made him doubt whether he had dune right in alluding to those occurrences in darker times and ages long gone by would have induced him to pause ere he did so, or to haw• at least moderated his language. I for ode think the terms used by the Hon. Member were too strong. and I must remind him we are "ealing with the Church that now exis s, not with that which existed cen turie-s ago. I must regret that, having mentioned those topics, he did not feel it was his duty also to advert to the conduct of the Protestant clergy, and to bear his testimony to the untiring beneficence and indefatigable endeavours of that body during the recent period 01 famine—(" Hear, hear" from Mr. Moore) —to their de sires and labours to mitigate the distress of the people without religious or party distinction, and to the good produced by their zealous and noble exertions.—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex stated that I was a member of the Irish Society, having subscribed to its funds. The Irish Society, however, is not con nected with the Irish Church. It is a voluntary society, supported by voluntary subscriptions; and the Honour able Gentleman, being an advocate of the voluntary system, has no right to object on his own principles to the rxisteice of a society whose members have tor the object or their association how to benefit their fel low•creatures. I have a knowledge of its former history, though not of its recent acts ; but I have the strongest reason to believe that the object of the society was to send forth men in the missionary spirit who could speak the Irish language, and would, by speaking the Irish language, be enabled to con vey spiritual and moral instruAion to many of their ellow countrymen, to whom such instruction would otherwise be inaccessible. But if the Hon. llemb tr means to charge me with cherishing any sympathy for, or giving any assistance to those who would take advan tage of the distress in Ireland to withhold relief from the people except on the condition of abjuring their faith, and who would thus be making temporal aid a means of seducing them from that faith, I can only say that I utterly repudiate any such imputation—(Hear, hear]—and in doing so, I shall add that I have no reason to believe that there is any member of that Irish Society, or any pers in connected with it, who could be capable of such comluct. The Hon. Gentleman real an exiract of a speech delivered by some person whom he described as an scent of that society.—(4lr. Osborne—" A clergy insti ") I a.n not responsible for that speech, and with the sentiments I cannot profess the slightest sympathy. The Honourable Gentleman also lead a letter pur portin; to be from the Lord Lieutenant of Irela•n 1, in which it was said that " the loyalty of the IT'Atholice was not to he trusted." I believe the Lori . Lieutenant said no such thing. The lion. Gentleman did not mention the date of that letter. He is a person of se much research that it is impossible to follow him through all the documente he has quoted.--(A. laugh.) Bur, from all my intercourse with the Lord- Lieutenent, there is no person, I am convinced, less likely to express such a sentiment ; and I believe his opinion to be, as it is the opinion of myself and others, that there is a eeneral spirit of loyalty and attachment towards the sovereign ot this realm pervading the great body of the people of Ireland—(Hcer, hear)—with cer tain exceptions, which have now, I hope, ceased to exist . . Ide nut think that I need enter into a defence ot the Established Church of Ireland. That may well he left in the hands or the Honourable Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), who will take grounds, however, which I should not, gene rally speaking, be able to take. But I was anxious to re-state my opinions on the question which the Honourable Member for Middlesex has raised, and to remind the House of the great and paramount &fa culty which exists with respect to the terms on which it can be settled ; and, till we can reasonably hope to be able to propose a measure to Parliament which shall carry out those views, I do not think it the duty of the Government to follovi a course which could only have the effect of leading to interminable discussions and acrimonious debates. For these reasons I shall vote against the motion. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the absence of my Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell). It is owing to domestic causes which left him no alternative. —(Hear, hear.) But for that circumstance, it was his full intention to have been preseHt. Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed, that the Right Hon. Baronet, admitting that the Established Church of Ire land was a great injustice, argued as if that injustice would be done away with by establishing another Church. The state of the Irish Church had always been the great grievance on which the movement for the re peat of the union rested. On what ground did those who defended it take their stand? On the ground that re ligious truth ought to be maintained. But those who argued so were parties to establishing Hindooism in liidia, the Catholic religion in Malta and Canada, the Presbyterian Church in Scotland How, then, could they say that their object was to establish re , ligious truth? Having sanctioned those various establishments in deference to a majority of the people in each instance, they yet established in Ireland the Church of a small minority. Was it on the ground of religious efficiency that the Irish Church was defended? In the time of Charles 11. the proportion of Protestants to Roman Catholics was as 3 to 8; in 1824 the Protestants were to the Catholic's as cßui ii)sou 3 tkro t c.r o hyo, l r 2 iggri .. i society, , saslll originally ignorance introducedeowi ag r n k eae p rwe u p b a r l s i fi s t, li h rt e o d ft h b t eh y e the ucse,, mEt; of c 1, thePrayerimputedclergymen .. L b s o l n t that Church. and the editor remarked th ,t n provision htd been made for having the Bookooriae Com mon Prayer cireula ed in the Irish tongue, or fir quiring that clergymen should speak the vernacular; it havingbeen eteicted that the Book of Common Prayer sh uld be read only in English or Latin. On the one tted, there was a people speaking the Irish languege; on the other, a Church established which pesitivele enacted that no Irishman should be elected to a cure till p-oclatnation had been made three times to see whether an Englishman could be got. It was making men prac tical hypocrites to compel them to eupp irt a Church whose dogmas they believed untrue, and whose preach ing they thought unsound. Was it on political grounds that ttie Church established in Ireland could be de fended? Certainly that Church had not been the means of procuring tranquillity. It had been said that the Protestants went to Ireland with a sword in one hand and a Bible in the other. They drew the sword, but forgot to oiten the Bible. They had distinguished them selves more by confiscations than by concessions. And what had constantly been the cause of agrarian disturb ance? It was to the injustice of the tithe system that Rock, fuel Starlight, and the Peep-o'-Day Buys owed their origin:— " As long as Popish spade and scythe shall deg and cut the Sassenach tithe, And Popish purses pay the tolls On Heaven's road for Sassenach souls; As loag as millions shall kneel down To ask of thousands for their own; So Ling the happy reign shall be Of Cevain Rack and his family 1" The Church of Ireland had further been made odious as a political engine; and the great body of the Irish people had made up their minds that, by some means or other, so great a practical abuse as that Church should be abated. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, while he could not approve of the views stated by the Right Hun. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Deportment, must make his acknowledgments for the intimation of the Right Hon. Gentleman's intention to meet the motion by a decided il h p by g r i t a n t o i l - i f v r e'.tf—(He.) c' ao Governmentnr , s e ci he u a e r n . c ) ews i t N t hh o arne p f o ae l ni i . c ey y n ew c ee o ta u ok l i n i t he b ses 3 attended the Church at that time. H e regretted that thesuqobujne had been raised by the H on . M em b er for Nliddlesex— actttihoonef riot that he shrank from th e argument, b ut that s i nce 1834—since discussions on the same theme had, as it were, by common consent been abandoned, the acrimony of political feeling and religious c i t i l e e n r t t r n o e4 ve s r: a y hadthe Irish been mitig 'led, and the rev. ted to the tval of eith er was to be iipreceteil. .. e The MM. Member obi Church at a tormer period. and now that it, was active he said that it was prom dug hypocrisy. It would be his (itr. Hamilton's) duty to point out what had b een done towards correcting the abuses in the Irish Ch urc h to which the Him. Member had particularly adverted, and he would pledge his character upon the accuracy of any statements he might make. One of the primary grounds of complaint against the Church in Ireland was the existence of pluralities. Many Eon. elembers ima gined, p3rhaps, that pluralities existed to a great extent in the Irish Cruirch, and that there were no means of cor recting the abuse. In 1834 the number of pluralities in the Irish Church was 81; in 1843, the date of the last re.urn, tee number had been reduced to 34.—( !ear. hear.) The process of reduction was still in progress. No fresh pluralities could be crested except through a faculty granted by the Primate o' Irelend, and no such faculty had been granted since 1828. In point of fact, t he system of pluralities was fast disappearing under the administration of that distinguished Prelate. Sim , - e'ves lurniened another ground of complaint against the Irish Church; but under the Church Tetnporelities Act and subsequent Acts ample prevision was made for the correction of thee abuse. Another defect in the establish flirt upon which its opponents laid great stress was the existence of unions. It was true that the existen ce of untena was an abuse which once prevailed to a great ex tent in Ireland, but it had been abated by the operation of. the Church TeMporalities Act, which invested the Le . -.1-Li eute .ant i n Coieiteil %kith poser to dissolve iunions. No f ewer th a n 53 unions had been dissolved since 183 3. Some few unions yet remained , bec ause they were indispensable under the existing circumstances of the country. Some of the parishes were o such ex tremely limited extent—for instance, one in Cork was entirely eceupied by a distillery, and another consisted of only 40 separe yards—that if they were not united there would he no provision whatever for the clergyman. Another ground of conaidaint Was the'non-residence of toe clergy; tut this defect was fast disappearing. In 1813 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Armagh was 82, cf whom 15 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 102, whilst the number of those non-resident was reduced to five, two of whom were non-resident on act:emit of illness. In 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Meath was 94, of whom 20 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 107, and the number non resident was reduced to seven. In 1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the dioCese of Oseory and Ferns was 147, of whom 45 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 244, and the note residents were reduced to nine. In 1819 there were 109 beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Cashel and Waterford, of whom 52 were non-resident; in 1849 the number of clergymen had increased to 121, whilst that of non-resident was reduced to nine.— (Hear.) Heel he been table to procure returns from the usher dioceses in Ireland, they would have exhibited similar results.—.(Hear, hear.) The alleged excessive wealth of the Church in Ireland had long furnished a toeie for declamation against the establishment. In 1833 Lord Althorp was oblige] to acknowledge that on no subject had such exaggerated statemeros been put forth as with respect to the revenues of the Irish Church, and he (Mr. Hamilton) must he allowed to say that a little of the old spirit of exaggeration was apparent in the remarks of the Hon. Member fur Middlesex upon this - tepic. The Hon. Member steted that the income of the Irish clergy amounted to 680,8361, and that of the Church altogether to 852.0001. The property of the Church was divided amongst the parochial clergy, dig nitaries, and bishops. It appeared from the evidence of Mr. Quin, one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that the gross income of the Irish clergy was 453 0941., and their net income 369,3601., without deducting the poor rates. The amount of rates struck during the year eliding the 31st of Dscember,lB4B, througout Ireland, was 2s. 9id. in the pound; and it was truly stated in that House, a few evenings since, that the moment a rate was struck in Ireland landlords deducted the amount, as they were empowered to do by the Church Temporalities Act, from • the clergyman's rent charge. It was therefore necessary to deduct from the. net income of the clergy, namely, 369,3601., the amount taken from it by the landlords for poor-rate, which was 63 2441, and would reduce the net income of the clergy to 306,116/.--(Elear.) But there was still another de duction to be made from the income of the clergy, namely, the sum which they paid to their curates, which the Ecclesiastical Gtmmissioners returned at 56.708/. That deduction twinz made, the net income of the clergy of the Irish Church stool at 249 4081., which divided amongst them. independently of curetes, would .give an average of 1721. 16s. 2d. for each eler,gyman.—(flear, hear.) According to the last census, and making no allowance for the subs.quent increase of population, there was a congregation of 590 members of the Church ot England for each clergyman. Now, the Hon. Mem ber for Middlesex wou d net think of offering a clergy man with such a congrt gatien less than 1721. a year, and, theretore, it was evident that if he succeeded in establishing his congregational principle he would be unable to effect any saving. -(llear ) The net income of twenty ot the 1 srgest benefices in Ireland was 14,1291., being an average of 7081. for each, which could not be deemed very extravagaiite-e(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Th:4 largest b.-nefice in Ireland was that of Temple more, at weed to the deanery of Derry. It contained 8 churches, 15 schools, in which LOCO children were edu cated, and the incumbent kept nine curates. The present income of this, the largest benefi.ie in Ireland, was only 1,5521.—(Hear.) He would admit that the smallness of particular congregations was an evil incident to the pa rochial system, and it was one from which England was not exempt. The Commissioners of Public Instruction reported that there were in 1834 forty-four benefices in Ireland in which there were no congregations belonging to the Established Church. Twenty of these livings had lapsed to the general fund, and twenty-one still existed, of which several would shortly lapse. But if the House were to abolish at once these twenty-one bene fices in which there was no congregation belonging to the Established Church, the net income derivable there from would be 1,2351. If they took the revenues of the 100 parishes in which there were the smallest congre gations they would derive a yearly sum of 9.0491. The cross income of the dignitaries of the Established Church in Ireland—leans, archdeacons, prebendaries, &c., excite. elusive of bishops and archbishops—was 23.000/, or 21,0001. net. The next class was the bishops, a reasonable income for whom had been hell to be about 4.0001. The grass income of the English bishops was 6,6831., and their net income 5,9311. The gross total income of the Irish Bishops was 40,5331., giving an average income to each Bishop of 4,0551. 'The Archbishops received 15,8081.; nod the total income of Irish Archbishops and Bishops was 56,3811. There were 814 glebe-houses to 1,450 be nefices, and there were great numbers of applications of pressing necessity for the building of new and the repair of old churches, which it was impossible to meet, from the want of funds. He trusted that he had stated suffi cient to correct the errors and gross exaggerations pre valent respecting the wealth of the Irish Church.— Clear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Mayo (Mr. Moore) declared that the Irish Church bad not fulfilled the object fur which it had been established, but he should have thought that the sacrifices made by the clergy of the Established Church during the late dis tress sufficiently disproved the assertion that no social advantages had resulted from the existence of that Church. lie bad always held that the Irish Church ought to be sustained and upheld as a missionary and aggressive Church.—(Hear, hear.) Thei Noble Lord the Member for Arundel said that he would not give a farthing for a Church that was not a missionary church and aggressive in its cha racter. Truth clout] only be promoted by the collision of opinions, and he considered it to be the duty equally of Protestants and Roman Catholics to propogate their views, provided that in doing so they did not violate Christian charity. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government said on the 16th of July, 1846, in reference to this subj , ct, that the destruction of the Protestant Church in Ireland would be a fatal measure in a political point of view, as it would alienate the feelings of many of the most loyal inhabitants of Ireland; and in a religious point of view, because it would ho the commencement of a religious war, in which the most vi.dent attack would be made on the R man Catholic Church ; and that he believed the Roman Catholics themselves would he the first to complain ot . the destruction of the Protes tant Church. He (Mr. flemilton) believed that the Noble Lord had not in the slight st degree exaggerated the feelings of the great mass of the Roman Catholics in that reap .et He b lieved that the great body of that Church, that question i e tes f o t e ahl o nylui durrnheni,i7:vEiwhwel civilisation. —( [' le er.) n; would net seek the destruction of a t I_ , a) w fn: e g.e) l q l calculated. ndetaint, bthefeo promote rlteiooeuxspor expressed e ad had so tits opinions. The Hon. Gentleman ) wla > had just sat d r, , ,l w it n ies ha a d rid ca o l t le h , e l r th re e a a tu tt r e e nt o io fntoh f e t E hll-1 0 : 1 9 s h n e ed:Ch th u e reh pla in - Ireland, nut one of which was mentioned " i of the lion. M-mber for Middlesex. lie (Mre. motion had risen to complain that the Right Hon. Baronet had not grappled in any fair way with the motion of his Hon. Friend. The Injury, morally and socially, which the Church in Ireland inflicted on the people was de plorahle, and it would be sound policy to put a stop to the evil—an evil which inflected degradation on every Catholic in the country.—(Bear.) He had only to say that he considered the motion of his Hon. Friend, in a financial point of view, as of great importance, and, as affecting the morals of the people, as of the greatest weight. The Right Hon. Baronet, in opposing the motion, went off on the plea that the Church had been rooted 300 years; but it had, be (Mr. Hume) was sorry to say, grown very badly—(Laughter)—and while it increased but little, if at all, the Cstholic Church in creased twelvefold. The price of supporting the Church of Ireland, as it was now supported, cost the people of England 50,000 armed men. He felt that every Irishman must rise daily and feel himself in relation to the state and operation of the Church, a degraded mortal ; and what was more, he had the additional mortification of hearing the minority on every Sunday, railing against the majority who paid for the support of their Church, keeping up a state of antagonistic feeling in the country. Was it not too bad to find the minority thus abusive of the majority who were compelled to support them? The time, however, he would tell the House, was come, when they must deal with the people of Ireland on a very different footing in respect to that Church.—(Hear, hear.) Let them look to Scotland. It the Government had suc ceeded in planting in that country, as was done in Ire land, a Church which was alien to the feelings of its people, would Scotland be the country which it was now? No; It would be in the same state that Ireland was now.—(Hear, hear.), It was admitted that while in England the people enjoyed their own religion, and while in Scotland the people enjoyed their own religion, Ireland was placed in the anomalous situation of seeing . the majority of her people taxed, in order that the mi d_eriitiheeanr,, t h a h t e d a r i 3 . cnoy might ,n ri t t en texi e s te xi exist Was tha that t any c w o unt ? ) Let them assign any other cause. He admitted that bad laws prevailed in the country. forming a source of discontent; but the great cause of discontent was the• state of the Established Church in that country—a Cause which his Hon. Friend made as clear as anything ceuld be. The Church was the foundation on which Repeal" and every other association was based, lie could never forget the speech of the Right Hon. B arnnet (Sir Robert Peel) when he was leaving office, and surrendering power into the hands of the present Ministers, in relation to the Irish Church. The Right Hun. Baronet said on that occasion that ho should sup port the Ministers in their efforts to remove those causes of discontent arising from one class of religion being placed in the ascendant over another. Theßieht Hon. Baronet knew that the men who now occupied the Minis terial benches had been railing for forty years against the abuse, and ho thought that they would be the party to remove that grievance; but ho (Mr. flume) regretted that the Right Honourable Baronet and the public were disappointed in that opinion. The clinging of the Church party to the more y—he meant the revenues of the Church—convinced him that they were doubtful of their own Church and that they felt that without those means the Cnurch , of England would fall. It was impos sible that any people (unless they were slaves) could submit to such a state ot injustice and degradation. The revenues of the Church of Eogland were public money— they were public property taken by Parliament from one sect, and given by Parliament to another sect. —(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He only rose to express his regret that the Government were' not prepored to favour the motion of his Hon. Friend for the appeititment of 't Committee to take into consideration the state of Vie Irish Church, with a view to a correction of its abuses.—(Hear, hear.) bf.r. P. WOOD was anxious on this 00004i012 to ex- and Lurch, ImerA ng of jy al- Tbe )f this be so e Jethro to be at bet leer.) inter- se she at ar (Mr. la, the Tial.- eS people id to° )o. Ia in Ire ,me tO 4,00 01. 2 000 L hootte t of dog 4.—" i LONDON WEDNESDAY EVENING-, press the grounds on which he meant to give his vote on this question, and to make some observa tions on the speech of the lion. Member for the University of Dublin I (Mr. Hemilion). While he considered the Church of Eneland—to which he was proud to belong—was the purest, and he splice it without intention to give offence to any other religion, he could not but express his regret at the state of that Church in Ireland, and the manner in which it was supported. It was plain, he must say, that Church formed but a very small portion of the people of the country; and the House should recollect that they were dealing with it as a national question. The ground on which he could give his vote for the motion now be fore the House, was not that he expected that at that kite period of the session it would be successful, but to mark his sense of the question; at the same time, in voting for the motion to go into Committee, he did not pledge himself to vote for all those points in reference to the state of the Established Church in Ireland which the Honourable Member had referred to in introduc ing the question. Now, with reference to the Church, he was bound to say that it had never been the national Church of Ireland. They had seen the conquest of Wales, and why did not those grievances which afflicted Ireland prevail there? They had found that with very few exceptions, the inhnbitants were not handed over to the Normans as the Irish were; and the consequence was, that although they were exposed to great difficulties in Wales, they had peace and tran quillity in that country, notwithstanding it was, as he re marked, a conquered country. The difference between the countries was, that the people of \Vales were left their estates, while the Irish people were doomed to have their estates divided among the Normans; and the Governments of this country really thought no m ore of the Irish, than they did of the natives when establishing the colonies in America. The question seemed to bine to be a great grievance requiring decided redress. The point most desired in all churches was that she should be the guardian and directress of the poor; but in Ire land the Church exercised no such kindly functions for the benefit of the " mere Irish." Now while be gave support to the motion, he differed from some of the details which the Honourable and Gallant Member for Middlesex announced his intention of moving e if they went into Committee.—(Bear, hear.) Hdid not think it necessary that a bishop should have 4,000/ a year. Indeed, one of the best Bishops of the Episcopal Church he ever knew had only 701. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Fifteen hundred a year ought to be the maximum allowance to each bishop. They were hound to take steps to remedy the abuses which eii;v(l in this respect—abuses which principally arose from the fact of the Church in Ireland not being a national church. • JULY I NEW HOUSES' OF PARLIAMENT, Mr. PACKEpostponee his motion on the delay in completing the new House of Commons till next session. HARBOURS OF REFUGE. On the motion of Mr. BRIGHT (in the absence of Mr. Hume), the fallowing returns were ordered: — Return of all sums voted for harbours of refuge since the year 1844 and a statement of the money expended upon Dover, Harwich, and Portland respectively: similar return for Holyhead, distinguishing between the sums expended upon the old and new harbours: statement, showing under which department of Govern ment the several harbour works are being carried out, and the sort of superintendence or control that is exercised over them; copies of the authenticated plan (if any) of the works to be executed at each of these places, showing the extent to which it is proposed they should be carried, and the estimated expense of each ; and of the report of surveys, if any, or copy of plans, if any, showing the progress made from time to time in the works ; and showing also their present state ; the amount already expended on each, and the amount to be expended to complete the works as originally planned. C )pies of the authority under which the harbour department of the Admiralty was formed, and of the letter of instructions, if any, which prescribed its duties ; and of report of any Committee of Inquiry as to the efficiency of that department, or of any report, if any, recommending its reduction, together with any documents or other evidence on which such report may have been founded. NEW BILLS. Mr. NAPIER would be quite willing to rest the case of the Church on the able and eloquent statement of his [lon. and valued Colleague, but there were some mistakes in the arguments of the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman opposite, which he desired to correct. He was quite willing to compare the doctrines of the Protestant Church with those of the earliest churches, and to try its doctrines by the word of God. If they were to have their own c eiscientious views of what a Church of eighteen hundred years ought to possess, he believed the funds at the disposal of the Establishment were not more than sufficient for its creditable support. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that whatever was done with the funds of the Established Church, a reason able and sufficient income ought to be reserved for the working clergy.—(fiear.) Tnere was, moreover, a question of expediency involved in this matter, and he contended, that so respectable a body as the Protestant Church, including in the Church both clergy and laity, were entitled to a respectable provision. It was a diffi cult thing to get at the exact revenues of a church, but he believed, after the utmost investigation, that the sum actually received by the clergy and the Commissioners for the Reduction of Vestry Cess and other matters, amounted to between 650,0001. and 660,000/. a year. The number of the clergy was certainly too great, and when they were peying men out of a trust fund, it was evidently absurd to pay men out of a trust who had no duties to perform. Thera were not above 200 more Roman Catholic clergy than Protestant, although the disparity in the numbers was so great ; and if it should be said that there were friars in orders outside the Ro man Catholic Church, then he answered by pointing to the Wesleyan preachers outside the Protestant Church, who were more numerous than the friars. With regard to any surplus fund that there might be, he meant to say that he should not wish any portion of such a sum to he given to the Roman Catholics, as it would give an appearance of triumph to one party over another. It was in no spirit of hostility that he should vote for the motion of his 100. Friend. Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret at the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for until that moment he had thought that the Hon. Gentleman was for relieving the people of Ireland of the members of the Established Church, instead of being an advocate for tinkering the temporalities of the Establishtnent. He had often heard that St. Patrick was an Irishman — that he came of decent people—that in point of fact he was a gentleman ; but until that evening he certainly was not aware of his having been a Protestant.—(Laugh ter.) He should not say a word, God forbid, of his Protestant friends and neighbours, but an illustrious countryman of his, namely, Dean Swift, had spoken of the Bishops appointed in his time in the following terms: —" No blame rests with the Court for their aspoint merits, and excellent and moral men were selected for all vacancies, when they occurred, but it unfortunately hap pened, that as the worthy divines crossed Hounslow heath, they were robbed and murdered on the highway, and those who did so, seized on their robes, and patents of appointment, came over to Ireland, and were con secrated in their stead."—(Roars of laughter.) These were the lineal descendants of St. Patrick. Let them now see how the rest got on down to their own time. The Hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Hamilton) talked of averages, and asserted that the Church was not so rich as it was thought, for the clergy, on an average, had only 1721. 19s. 1 lid. per annum. But some had only 50/. And as to averages, when the corn-law was about to be repealed, it was asserted that on an average every man, woman, and child in England consumed a certain quantity of beef and mutton daily, whereas in point of fact it was well known that thousands of these same people never ate a morsel of one or the other from year's end to year's end.—(Laughter.) It was precisely the same with the parsons. Well, there was another view of the case, showing how these aver ages told. The following summary was taken from a paper called the Daily Reporter, giving an account of the sums of money paid to the Established Church of Ireland:—Archbishops, 151,127/. 12s. 4d.; Deans, 22,624/. ss. 61 ; ministers' money, 10,000/.; making altogether, with glebe-lands, an aggregate sum of 807,5331. 12s. 4d., to which should be added 75 0001. a year paid to Trinity College.—(Hear.) Then, again, those lineal descendants of St. Patrick — ( A laugh)—paid the common debt of nature, and then mile the probate duty paid by their heirs, which he found in another public document, up to July, 1832, as follows: Fowler, Archbishop of Dublin, 150,000/.; Beresford, Bishop of Tuatn, .250,0001.; Agar, Bishop of Cashel, 400,0001.; Stopford, Bishop of Cork, 250,0001.; Bernard, BishOp of Limerick, 250,0001. ; Hawkins, Bishop of Riphoe, 250 0001.; and several othrs, making in all a sum of 1,575,000/. as probate duty. He did not mean to insinuate that those Bishops were substituted for the persons robbed on Hounslow-heath, but they certainly feathered their nests very well. The Right Honourable Gentleman th e S ecre t ar y o f State for the Home Department made a speech of which he did not approve. Now, as regarded the appropriation of reve nues, he repudiated the idea of appropriating to Catholic purposes any portion of it. His religion was not to be sustained by the mammon of iniquity. The Hon. Gen tleman, after reading an extract of a speech of Earl Fortescue, pointing out the grievances of the Established Church in Ireland, concluded by thanking the Honour able Member for Middlesex for the able manner in which he brought the question forward. Major BERESFORI) denied that the sum attributed to the Archbishop of Tuam, on which probate duty was paid, amounted to 250,0001. When the statement was first made, he applied to his relatives, and received the most distinct refutation, for it only amounted to 40,0001., and not 250,000/., as had been asserted. Mr. REYNOLDS explained. The document to which he referred was a public one, and as to the amount of probate duty, it was to be had at the Stamp-office. Mr. J. O'CONNELL denied that the people of Ireland were indifferent to the monster grievance of the Estab lished Church, and protested against say endowment being made to the Catholic Church. - Mr. OSBORNE—I do not think that the friends of religious equality in Ireland have reason to regret the tone, or upshot, of the debate.—(Hear, hear.) But the present is a melancholy occasion,, and the \Vhig prin ciple has expired.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) We have heard of the birth, parentage, and education of the appropriation clause, and now our melancholy duty is to attend its obsequies; the Right Hon: Secretary for the Home Department sings the dirge as chief mourner, while all the men who voted for the clause since 1838 are forced to walk in the funeral procession.—(Rear hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says that I am not consistent, because I wished to abolish the Church altogether in 1848. But when he reminds me of my inconsistency, be should - not forget that he himself supported the ballot in Devonport and op posed it in Northumberland.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the last man to taunt another with inconsistency; be is evidently a man of in firm mind.—(A laugh.) I did not expect to be taunted for offering a compromise, but the Right Hon. Gentle man refuses all compromise. He says "If I could see a good practical plan." What is his plan? He would endow the Roman Catholic Church; would he? He knows that he dare not do it. He knows that that is a step which the Whigs, false as they are, will not attempt so long as they have the government of the country in their hands.—(hear.) I regret that the Right Hon. Member for Dungarvan and one or two other members of the Government have not given us the benefit of their opinion. Assuredly they will be obliged to eat much dirt to-night.—(Cheers and laughter.) But whatever flattering unction they may lay to their souls, they can not go on night after night seeing one principle expire after another. They may lean one night on a crutch and en another lean on a cushion from Montrose — (Great laughter)—but they are only staggering on, and must at last expire from sheer political atrophy. This question, which had already di atroyed so many Govern ments, will eventually prove the grave of her Majesty's present Ministry.—(Hear, hear.) At the conclusion of the Hon. Member's reply, there was a pretty general rush from the Ministerial benches. As the Members passed out they were greeted with loud ironical cheering from the Protectionist side of the House. The House then divided, when there appeared-- .For the.motion ••• .., 103 Against it ..• • ••• ... 170 Majority ••• ..„ —67 The announcement of the numbers was greeted with Igud cheers by the minority. Leave was given to bring in the following Bills: On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a Wll to repeal the allowances in the purchase of stamps, and for the re ceiving and accounting for the duties on gold and silver plate, and to grant other allowances in lieu thereof. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of th e EX CHEQUER, a Bill further to amend an Ant of the 10'h year of her present Majesty, for rendering valid certain proceedings for the Relief of Distress h Ireland, by employment of the labauring poor, and to indemnify those who have acted in such proceedings. Also, Bill to amend an Act of the 10th year of her Majesty, inti " An Act to facilitate the Improvement of Landed Property in Ireland." On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, a Bill to continue an Act of the sth and 6th years of her present Majesty for amending the law relat i v e to private lunatic, asylums in Ireland. MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL. Mr. WYLD moved the second reading of this . Bill. Year after year the loss of life in col lieries was morns• ing, and this year it had increased 35 per cent. over the previous year, and his object in proposing this Bill was to provide a remedy for this evil by a proper and efficient system of inspection. Sir G. GREY suggested that legislation should be postponed until the Committee now sitting of the House of .L - irds on the subject, and the Commission appointed by the Government, should have reported. He did not desire to go into the meritapf the Bill, but he was not prepared to assent to the app dntment of a chief inspec tor in London, and a number of inspectors in the coun try, to be paid for by a rate of 33. in the pound. He believed the un&ratauding on a former day was, that the Bill should be postponed until the inquiries referred to had concluded. If the Hon. Gentleman persisted in pressing the second reading, he should feel it his duty to move that it be read a second time that day three months. Mr. AGLIONBY supported the Bill. Mr. BERNAL opposed it. He had a sincere desire to effect the object in view, but he had full confidence that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would pay due attention to the subject. Mr. DUNCAN requested Mr. Wyld to withdraw the Bill. Strangers withdrew, but the Bill was negatived with• out a division. s.— In reply to Mr. HENLEY, Mr. LABOUCHERE said ho could not at present fix the day for the second reading of the Railway Audit Bill, but that he would do so on Thursday. The House went into Committee on the POOR RELIEF (CITIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL, The several clauses of which were agreed to. BOROUGHS RELIEF BILL. This Bill passed through Committee. TRUSTEES RELIEF BILL. This Bill also passed through Committee. SHERIFFS (WESTMORELAND) BILL. This Bill was read a second time and passed through Committee. The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons, MONDAY, JULY 9. STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE. The following Resolution was reported from the above Committee : That in the case of the North Staffordshire Railway (New castle and Silverdale Branch Amendment Act) petition, the standing orders ought not to be dispensed with.—Report to lie on the table. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. (From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Cavan°it) TUESDAY, JULY 10. CHURCH OF IRELAND. Motion made, and Question put, " That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to con. Sider the present state of the Temporalities of the Church o: Ireland." The House divided: — MINORITY—AYES, 103. Adair, R. A. Harris, Richard Pearson, Charles Aglionby, 11. A. Headlam, T. E. Pechell, Captain Ii Henn} ey ,v. . d Alexander .l.i e s P. il e t k o i , n Saul g t.m..e James Alcock, Thomas Armstrong, R. B. Bass, M. T. Heyworth, L. Pinney, W. Berkeley, Henry F. 'Lindley Charles Power, Dr. Berkeley. C. L. G. Hodges, T. L.l Rawdon, Colonel Bernal, Ralph Hodges T. Twisden Reynolds, John H Birch, Sir Thomas oliond, Robert Ricardo, Osman Blake, Martin J. Howard, C. W. Robartes, T. J. Bouverle, E. P. Hume, Joseph Salwey, Colonel Bright, John Jackson, William Scully, Francis Brotherton, J. Kershaw, James Shafto, R. D. Millbury, E. 11. King, P. J. Smith, R. V. Burke, Sir Thomas Langston, J. 11. Smith, J. Benjamin Callaghaa, D. Locke, Joseph Spearman, 11. J. Clay, James Lushington, C. Strickland, Sir G. Cobden, B. - 3PCullagb, W. T. Stuart, Lord Dudley Colebrooke, Sir T. Mahon, O'Gorman Tancred, H. W. Davie, Sir Henry Mangles, R. D. Thicknesse, It. A. D'Eyncourt, C. T. Martin, Samuel Thompson, Colons Duncan, Viscount Melgund. Viscount Thompson, George Duncan, George Milner, W. M. Thoniely, T. Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, A. T. Toilemache, F. J. Evans, John Moleswortb, Sir W. Trelawny, J. S. Ewart, William Monsell, William Wall, C. B. Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Wahnsley, Sir J. - Fergus, John Mostyn, E. Wawn, J. T. Fordyce, A. D. Mowatt, Francis Williams, John • Fertescue. Chichester Nugent, Sir Percy Willyams, H. Fox, W. J. O'Brien, J. Wood, W. P. Gibson, T. M. O'Connell, John Greene, John O'Connell, M. J. TELLERS. Grenfell, C. Pascoe O'Connor. FearguS Osborne, Ralph Grenfell, Charles W. O'Flaherty, Anthony Roche, E. B. Grosvenor, Lord B. Ogle, S. C. MAJORITY-NOES, 170. Acland, Sir T. D. Gordon, Admiral Napier, Joseph Ashley, Lord Gore, W. R. 0. Neeld, John Bagsha .v, John Goulburn H enr y Newdegate, N. twines, M. T. Graham, 'Sir James Newry, Viscount Bankes, G. Granby , Marqu i s o f tileholl, John Baring, H. B. Greene Thomas O'Brien, Sir Lucius Baring, Sir F. Grey, Sir G. Packe, C. W. Bateson, Thomas Grey, R. W. Paget, Lord Clarence Beckett, W. Grogan, Edward Pakington, Sir J. Bentinck, Lord H. Halsey, T. P. Palmer, Robert Beresford. William Hamilton, G. A. Parker, John Boldero, H. G. Hamilton, J. H. Patten, W. Bowles, Admiral Hamilton, Lord C. Feel, Sir Robert Bramston, T. W. Harris, Captain Pennant, Colonel Bremridge, Richard Hawes, Benjamin Plowden, W. H. Brisco, M. Hay,':Lord John Plumptre, J. P. Broadley, H. Ilayes4Sir E. Price, Sir Robert Bromley, Robert Ilayter, W. G. Reid, Colonel Brooke, Sir A. B. Heneage, G. H. W. Repton, G. W. J. Burrell, Sir C. Herbert, H. A. Rich, Henry Cardwell, E. }lorries, John C. Romilly, Sir. John Cavendish, W. G. llervey, Lord A. Rushout, Captain Chichester, Lord J. Ilildyard, R. C. Russell, E. Childers, J. W. Hildyard, T. B. Rutherfurd, A. Christopher, R. Hill, Lord E. Serve, G. P. Christy, Samuel Hobhouse, Sir John Seymour, Sir H. Cobbold, J. C. Hodgson, W. N. Sheridan, R. B. Cocks, T. S. Hood, Sir A. Simeon, John Colvile, C. R. Hope, A. Smyth, J. G. Compton, H. C. Hotham, Lord Somerville. Sir W. Corry, 11. . Howard, Sir R. Sotherou, T. H: S. Cubitt, William Jermyn, Earl Spooner, Richard Darner, Colonel Jervis, Sir John Stafford, Augustus Deedes, W. Johnstone, Sir d. Stuart, H. Denison, J. E. Jones , Capta in Stuart, J. Disraeli, ,B. Ker, Richard Taylor, T. E. Duckworth, Sir J. Knox, Colonel Thesizer, sir F. Dundee, Admiral Labouchere, Henry Townshend. Captain mind.% sir David Lacy, if. C. Turner, G. J. Dunne, F. P. Laseelles, W. S. Tyrell, Sir J. Du Pre, C. G. Legh, Vesey, T. East, Sir J. B. Lewis, George C: Villiers, Viscount Ebrington, Viscount Lewisham, Vis. Vivian, J. E. Egerton, Sir P. Lindsay, Colonel Walpole, S. 11. Egerton, W. T. Littleton, E. R. Walter, John Elliot, John E. Lockhart, W.' Watkins, Colonel Estcourt, J. B. B. Lopes, Sir Ralph Wellesley, Lord C. Farnham, E. B. Lygon, Gen. Williamson, Sir IL Ferguson, Sir R. Martin, C. W. Wilson, James Fitzpatrick, J. W. Manic, Fox Wilson, Matthew Floyer, John Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wodehouse, E. Forbes, Wm. Miles, P. W. S. Wood, Sir Charles Fox, S. L. Miles, William Wyld, James Freestun, Colonel Morgan, 0. Young, Sir John Frewen, C. 11. Morris, David Galway, Viscount Mullings, J. R. TELLEAS. Gladstone, W. E. Mundy, William Tighe% Henry Gooch,E. S. Naas, Lord Cowper, W. F GENERAL EDUCATION AND EX TENSION OF TIIE FRANCHISE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Sin,—ln order to give the greatest impetus possible to the spread of voluntary education among the poorer classes, let the test of qualification for exero cising the elective franchise be an educational one and not a property one ; or, in other words, " give the vote to a man because he is a man, not because he has purchased some earth or some bricks and mortar." It will be admitted by all that an educated man is better qualified to exercise the elective franchise than an uneducated man, but the difficulty is, if education is to be the test, where to draw the line of demarca tion between the one and the other. To remove this difficulty, let every man (not being a pauper nor con victed of crime) who can solve correctly rule of three questions in arithmetic have a vote. Thus the line would be clearly defined, the principle of universal suffrage in its only healthy aspect would be adopted, and the vote given to a man because he is a man. In going through this test he would show his ca pability to read, write, and use his reasoning facul ties, all of which must certainly be deemed necessary qualifications for an independent voter, and all which, being within the reach of the poor as well as the rich, would not, in that respect, be liable to the same ob jection as a property qualification. Now, to show that this qualification would bring in _a more intelligent class of voters than we have at venture to assert that one-half of the Ipresent, I may presen t voters, if tried by this test to-morrow, would be struck off the register; but to save them from being disfranchised, and to let the influence of the property 1849. qualification remain during the lives of the present voters, I would suggest that they should all remain on the register during the remainder of their lives, but that all new candidates for the elective franchise should be examined by the rule-of-three test, and then that they, like the old voters, when once on the register, should remain there for life. - The suffrage would thus be gradually and safely ext andel as education became more widely diffused, the greatest and best portion of the working classes would be satisfied, and what is more important still, a most powerful impetus would be given to the poor to use every endeavour to get themselves and their chil dren educated by every means in their power, as it would then soon be felt to be a disg race to be excluded from the franchise, the principa excluding causes being ignorance and crime. Prrafce is a sufficient warning to make us pause before we adopt universal suffrage without universal education ; anxi unlimited household suffrage would, I think, be little better, as it would not only bring in many uneducated men, but it would shut out num bers who are intelligent and well educated, but who happen not to be householders. If you can at any time spare room for this commu nication in your columns, as one of the working classes I shall feel obliged, as I am anxious that their condition should be improved, and I think that a judicious extension of the franchise ought to be the first important step in that direction. I am, Sir, yours obediently, WM. WItIGIITSON. Thorne, Yorkshire, July 9, 1849. TO THE SECRETARY OF THE METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION. Sir„--On Monday night the principal debate was on the Scotch Marriages Bill. The ostensible object is to take steps for assimilating the Scottish law of marriage to the English. But the substantial object is to deprive Englishmen and Irishmen of the liberty arising out of the ancient Scottish institution of Gretna Green. It may appear ridiculous, but this is all there id in it. It is an attempt to draw closer the laws for what Addison or Steele in their day called " the preservation of the female , game." Nobody doubts that game-preservers in general are a hot-headed and incapable rec", exceedingly likely to be fouud overshooting their own mirk, and cutting the throat of their own interest. And there is no appearance of the pr servers of the female game making any exception to fle rule. Let the case be fairly examined, and say) what it is that is contended for. A wealthy Englishman, a squire of broad acres, sees danger in any Loophole for relaxation of the laws by which he has se.• cured certain powers over the marriage of his descend ants. Boys do not often insist on juvenile marriage; they prefer their liberty. It is his girls for whom he fears ' • and the idea which haunts him is, that t he y will be led into marriage by some man whose acres or whose position in society shall not be corr, spondent to his own. There shall be no attempt to deny the evil ; undeniably it is what a man may justifiably endeavour to resist. But is he taking the way to diminish the danger? Suppose the case of such an untoward event disturbirg the drawing-room tranquillity of a well-regulated family. A daughter, unable to resist the attentions of " her heavy dragoon," has consented to marry Lieutenant Spanker who so much distinguished himself in the last steeple-chase, without waiting for legal age or parents' consent. And the lieutenant of her choice shall neither be a Sir Charles Grandison nor a reprobate, but what is eomcaoner than either, a man who would not do a wrong gratuitously, and yet not above the lia bility of yielding to temptation if forced upon him. Ile carries off the daughter; and under the existing state of things, the next post but one brings a penitent letter from the two whom a Gretna Green marriage has made one, hoping forgiveness, and the military leader in particular coveting nothing so much as to be asked to take wine by his new governor under the governor's own mahogany. But suppose the squire to have carried the alteration in the law, the literary communications then take a very different turn. Instead of the swift advertisement that nothing is wanted but forgiveness, in a long week comes a letter, transmitted through the porter of the Junior United Service and suggesting an answer through the same irreproachable functionary, stating the ear nest desire of the _ _military partisan to have immediately marriE d Miss ,- but regretting that he found it to be impossible. Without the smallest wish of his own, he finds he must keep her for a fortnight, which is the shortest time within which the law will give his conscience ease; and in the meantime he ex presses an anxiety to know what the affectionate parent will do towards encouraging him in the good resolutions he is treasuring for the conclusion of that period. Ile assures him his daughter is well; and thinks she finds the country agreeable. Is the condition of this respectable family mended, or is it not? The Bill was so near being thrown out (being saved only by a majority of 73 against 68), that there is every probability of its being given up. But nominally it s tands for discussion again on Thursday. On Tuesday the motion for a Committee on the Irish Church occupied the whole of the night. If something is not done, what is to be the result when fifty thou sand Americans are threatening Windsor Castle? The debate, with few exceptions, was conducted w ith great mo deration, an index of approaching action on the subject. And this expectation was encouraged by a division of 103 in support of the Committee, to 170 against it. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN OLD REFORMER. London, July 11, 1549. ROYAL THAMES REGATTA. FIRST DIY. The great national aquatic meeting at Putney, which has been the all engrusiing topic of conversation for some time past, commenced . ytstertLy, and was more than usually attractive. Although this event has for a considerable period formed the chief feature of the season there seems to be an opinion afloat that its existence is near its close, the principal causes assigned for its discon tinuance being the gradual decline of the funds, and the difficulty of finding persons willing to incur the trouble and responsibility necessary to produce a regatta of this " Leviathan " character, with anything like a proper degree of sprit. As similar rumours have been previ ously rife with respect to the discontinuance of this aquatic festival,many persons are sanguine enough to look forward to our next year, bat others, well acquainted with river sports, entertain an opinion that, under the direction of the Leander Club, who were mainly instrumental in es • tablishing this regattl, in 1843, and upon whom much of the responsibility has fallen, a seder of periodical races during the summer will be produced. Be that as it may, we deeply regret that there should be even a rum.tur of its discon tinuance—it is purely a British pastime, and ought to be supported by all who value our rational sports, and it cannot be said that the example of royalty is wanting, as the name of Prince Albert is amongst the most liberal of its support-rs. Shouid the present lion. Sec. (Mr. Fells), one of the Leander Club, who has, for upwards of three years, discharged the onerous duty most effi ciently, retire, the interests of the regatta, there can he no doubt, will be most seriously affected, but it is to be hoped that he may be induced to continue his valuable (tea services. The weather was extremely fine, and the company by far exceeded in numbers the assemblage of the last two or three years; indeed, since the establishment of the regatta, we may safely say that we never saw a greater number of boats afloat, while Putney and Hammersmith Bridges, and every other place, from which a view could bsi obtained of the rowing, including the vast extent of towing-path, was crowded with anxious spectators, and the river and shores presented a coup dirii of the most animated description. There were eleven races upon the card, presenting the variety of from fours down to sculls. Teo sports com menced at half-past three, and continued up to nearly eight in the evening; the regulations throughout were admirable, and reflect the utmost credit upon the Secre tary and Committee. Champion Four Oared Race for 100 sous., open to all the world. St. Agnes, London and Newcastle .. (Green) 1 H. Coombes R. Clasp 'r T. Coombes I 11. Cla per J. Clasper, cwksvi.aie. Watermen's Crew, Oxford ... ... (Purple) '2 M. Cook 1 Venables A. Boyce W. Penn W. West, cockswain. The Perseveraue;, Chelsea (Stripe) 0 T. Chettle 1 T. Holmes G. Hesler B. Herring W. Godwin, cockswain. This was the great event of the day. Li this race, open to all the world, there had been a union between the Thames and the Tyne, the St. Agnes's crew consist ing of the champions of the two rivers and their brothers; and opposed to them were a crew of London watermea, who had last year, owing to an unfortunate circumstance, been deprived of the opportunity of testing the claim of superiority, and who now again stood forth, a crew inen Durham, and two others. The Claspers and Coombeses are known as opponents against each other in a pair-our wager about two years ago, when the Coombeses were victorious over their two coadjutors of yesterday. It is said that circumstances, not inclination, exactly conduced to the union on the part of Coombe& Tho ce lebrity the Claspers had acquired in their former victories at e this port, ar,, port, and the fair claim to superior excellence on head of the of the " national," placed this crew at the f ou nd by their the h list as the favourites , a nd when i t a w o - , that the y rowed with great regulari t y , d a ily practice, for the lasts ee k oi d were not affected by backed,ere at even against the each other's style , they c field. The raco extended from Putney to Chiswick Ait. Tho winners took the lead a nd ke p t it well, coming in first by two lengths .. The . Oxford and Chelsea crew ma d e a g allant race of it for some distance, when the Oxonians went aw ay, and although at Hammersmith-bridge they fouled a barge, and broke a thaw!, they continued their position. Second Hut. The " Never-rind it," London M'Kinney 6 ••• Newel Doubledee PoeGek W. Cox, Cockswain. The Feathers Crew, Wandsworth ... (Pink) 2 T. James 1 G. Cowper J. Salter 1 G. Salter , ... . . S. Salter, Cockswain.. .. Mazeppa Crew, Durham ... (Yellow and Black) 0 W. Foster 1 W. Howson W. G. Mann H. Eddy W. Forster, Cockswain. Brocas Crew, Etori E. Windsor G. Hill (Light Blue) 0 I R. Woo house R. E. Money 11. Perkins, Cockswain. Next to the united crew of the Conibises iii&Claspera, he " Never -mind-it" were the favtibrites, and many did not indeed hesitate to express their conviction that they would be found competent to defend the high . character of superiority which the London watermen have So emi nently attained, while others regretted that anything should have occurred to have caused the necessity of a. division of their _strength. The Durham crew were next in request. It was afair start; after which Red began to draw s head, and off the committee•barge Lad cleared them• selves. The other two made a very close race for same distance, when Pink took the second place. The Never• mind it won by a length and a half; the third crew were two lengths behind the_second; the other nowhere. Grand Heat. . - The beautiful style exhibited in the St. Agnes, not withstanding the capital work exhibited in the Never wind-it, wade the former the favourite at slight odds, and it was justly considered from what bad been wit nessed that the race would be entirely between :these two. The assemblage at this time amounted to many thumande, who exhibited the utmost anxiety to see the decision. The St. Agnes crew The Never--mind-it It was certainly a most gallant race; they all went away together at a most extraordinary pace, and after a few strokes the two crack crews began to show their heads in front, the St. Agnes with about half a yard of lead. At the committee-barge the St. Agnes had got half their length clear, and the other party putting on a desperate spurt, daereAsed it in the next few strokes by a toot or s o, but the others, with their fine even beautifully last ing style, gradually stole away from them, but were ' closely pressed by the Never•mind-it, who exhibited throughout the greatest game and determination, bat c,uld not better !liar fortune. The St. Agnes won by a length. Apprentices' Match, for a Cost, Badge, and Freedom, the presentation of E. Morris, Esq. First Heat. R. Rush, 'Westminster ... (Stripe) 1 R. J. Scott, Southwark ... (Black) 2 R. Fuller, Lambeth (Green) 0 P. W. bolls, ditto ... ... (Purple) 0 Two others started. Rush led almost immediately after the start, kept it, and won by a length. The se cond and third men made a very spirited race—all, in• deed, rowed very gallantly. Second Heat. J. Chitty, Richmond —... ..:(iellow and White) 1 G. Shaw, Wtsuninster... ... ... (tight Blue) 2 G. Penn, Twickenham... ... (Red and Yellow) 0 It. T. Morton, Lambeth ... (Black and Yellow) 0 Two others started. Yellow and White shortly after the start fouled a barge, and were thrown back, which gave Black and Yellow and Blue the advantage of posi tion. Notwithstanding the accident, the winners went to work with much game, and passed their opponents in SUCCe6SIOI I , winnieg by their own length. Grand Beat. J. Chitty, Richmond ... ... ... ... ~. 0 U.Shaw W estminster... s • This was deoided to be a dead heat. It was through out a good spirited race, but the river was so studded with boats that the men's course was oft impeded, and Rush, upon some accident, capsized, while Yellow and White was fouled near home by a skiff, but, notwith standing, endeavoured to regain his position of first man which he had lost by the foul, and rowed in abreast of his adversary. Watermen Scullers for 50 Sovereigns. First Heat. JoEeph Leach ... Thomas Cole ... ... (Red and White) 1 ... (Yellow and Black) 2 John Wilson ...(Light Blue) 0 iam Forest ... (Blue end White) 0 Two others started. It was a most, excellent race; they were altogether nearly half the distance with scarcely anything that could be milled a lead. The winner then drew right away and came in first by two lengths; it was a game contest for second place. Second Heat. _ J. A. Messenger ••• .._....._ ... ... (Yellow) 1 John Rae ... ••• ... ... (Purple) 2 George Henderson ... ... ••• (Pink) 0 R. Messam ••• ••• ... ••• (Red) 0 Two others started. It was a good race throughout, the men being in a cluster for two or three minutes. Messenger soon went in front and won cleverly. Grand Heat. J. A. Messenger ... ••• ... ... 1 J. Leach ... 0 A rapid start was seconded by Leach gaining an ad vance, closely waited upon by Rae and Cole. The win• tier, who had the worst of the start, and who subse quently gave way to prevent a foul, soon rowed by the latter two, and at the point near the Crab-tree Chafing and Leach, after being skull and skull for a few strokes, the winner wont into the first place. Amateur Four-oared Race for a Silver Challenge Cup. The Thames Club, London ... ...(Pink) 1 Leander ditto ... (Red) 0 1) 0 Ariel, Cambridge . (Light lilu, St. George's, ditto „, (Red and White) 0 They were in a cluster far a few strokes, and then the St. George's took a slight lead for a few moments, which they, however, did not maintain, and gave place to the winners, who kept it all the way. The Leander made several plucky efforts fur the second place, but were fou,ed by the Ariel, and had to make a sheer in towards the shore, the whole occurring in the heat of the race. Amateur Pair•oared Race, for Two Silver Cups. G. P. Edwards and F. Marsham ... (Pink) 1 Berry and T. Hartley (Stripe) 0 F. G. Chiliii.gworth and J. D. Chillingworth 0 The winners, after the first two or three minutes, did as they liked. They went off with the lead, kept it, and won by some lengths. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE..,. LIVERPOOL, TUESDAY EVENINet The following is a complete list of the arrivals urln the present time. Cur Llonsts.—john Cosser, lieleshea, Sylvan, '4128 Premier, Portrait, Raby, Woolwich, Bon Mot, Wertow , Thringarth, Essedixius, Sauter la Coupe, and Lamb's Wool. FOR Two AND THREE YEAR OLD STAKES.—C. by Irish Birdesteher, darn by 1)r. S)ntax—Lady Godivt, Potentia filly—Sieyon—f by Jerry, dam by Actzln— Cadger, f by 1)on John—out of Sister to Aidderby— Hammer and Torps—Mahaseah—Probity—Catpain Grant—Shilmalier West—French Susy—Leonidas— Steppingstone—the • Italian—Sweotheart,—Denbury— Arena—Marriott—f b Gladiator, out of Lolly. pnp—f by Gladiator, out of Maresehina—the Knight of Anvel,—Tingles—f by Charles the Twelfth, out of Fury—Harum Scarum—f by Jersei, out of Muff—Voyager—Timothy— Ccll(en Rhue, all two yr olds—the Flying Dutchman—Belus— Old Dan Ttn her —Chantrey—Roland—Strongbow—Elthiron — Cigarette —Circus the Widow —Magician —Penthesilea—and several others for the Plates. LIVERPOOL, WEDNESDAY MoRNING. LATEST CUP BETTING. (BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.) 7to 4 ag,,t Thringarth 6to 1 apt John Cosset. 2to 1 a.gst Essedarius 10 to 1 agst Keleshea. BETTING AT MANCHESTER.—TUESDAY. LIVERPOOL CPP.-2 to I sgst Thringarth (t)-5 to 2 agst &sedarius (t)-8 to I agst Keleshea (t)—S to 1 agat John Cosser (t)-12 to 1 agst Weatow (t). GOODWOOD STAKES.-10 to 1 agat Maid of Meehan% (0-11 to 1 agst Fernhill-12 to 1 agat Tophsna-12 to 1 agst Syrup-14jto 1 agst Giselle-16 to 1 egstWell. flower. . CRICKET. KENT v. ENGLAND. The renewal of this grand match yesterday. at as on Monday, by a very large attendance of s p eeta sands again Lloyd's, was disting e rovidttl the ground , and it was the subject of remark uished t . ors. Several thou that the m uster of persons of distinction was even more numerous than on the first day of the contest. A refer-. epee to the score will inform the reader, that havin.g been headed by England on the first innings by 44 runs, Kent went in for their second hands, when 101 resulted from their efforts. Of these Pilch obtained 34, Mr. Felix, 16 ; Ilinkly, la ; Adams, 11 ; MartAn gell, 10; whilst all the rest made but single figures only. England then went in to obtain 57 to tie, or 58 to win, mid it will be seen Oa! the requited numb''. was got v.ith seven wickets to spare. Tie final score was as follows : KENT. W. Pilch, b Wii,den Holland, b Wisden Martingell, b Lillywhite F. Pilch, b Wisden ... l2 c Ilaygartb, b Dean g 4 A. Mynn, Esq., b Lyllywhite 3 b Deau Adams, b Lillywhite 2 not out ... .. ............ 11 S.Felix,Esq.,c Dean,b Wisden 19 b Clarke Martin, b Lillywhite 5 b Wisdan .............. . 2 Ililler, b Lillywhite... l3 c Lillywhite,bWisden Clitlord, b Wi s d en Ilinkly, not out.. Ilyett 6 Byes ... ..... ... .. 2 . __ Exotasn. A. Ilaygarth, Esq., b Hillyar 0 a Clifford, b Holland 15 W. Nicholson, E5Cl', b Alynn 1 b Mynn Dean b Hillyer ....... ... ..... 20 Box cW. Pficb, b Hillyer... 12 not out b Hillyer . ..... 10 Parr b Mynn ............... .... 42 not out Chester b ilinkly C".tliadwint;.u.lt.:•,4.,l b w b Mynn 2 . 3 3 0 NVi s den, b Mynn Clarke, s Clifford, b Mynn Lillywhite, b Munn Byes 9, Wiao 1 10 13 ) . 'ct ........ ...... 7 127 England won by seven wickets. [ADVERTISEMENT.]—The unfailing success of Hol• oway's Pills and Ointment in the Cure of Ringworm, and all Diseases of the Skin.._.A medical gentleman, residing at Lima whose child had been severely afilicted with Ringworm for upwards of sia years, tried every known remedy to cure this dreadful disease but in vain, as it was of so inveterate a cha racter as to baffle the skill of himself and other practition O ers. As a last resource he was persuaded to use Hollovray's int ment and Pill, these medicines having obtained muchhcele. at tiro brity in all parts of South America, and they had.tehaetin ap t p h y . effect of soundly curing the child and perfectly era di catin g disease from the system.—Sold by a ll Dru t ggifts , fessor Holloway's Establishment, '244, Stra Ai_ L ondon.. . DIEPPE RAILwAr.—At the general meeting just held in Paris, Count D'Alton for b tgo 3a t 4 h l e bal fi l l a s t t e e e ig o h f t m 4 4 7 6 t 3 h o s f : bite() in the chair, the , 33F., and the ea rweoprokritc ti g t a o t r e d i h t e h l a i t n e t h a e lo r o e u c in e. e i ta p evd t i s n p;n t d re i t a u t r y e to ''F '6 , se3f. ' was agreid to by a large 'majority for a mixed working traction of the railway with the Havre line, and the number of the directors was reduced from tine to ere. ismer ivi vbe and the line )ple on and t he ling Mr.. WriES tcri- Ater .a . r.) SQT• rate add per- rmy irch. id it ;ave.. ,he rep erty. 1735 d her?