The Sun. — London, England, 1828-02-23 00:00:00

that the standing orders of the House had not her!! , oreplied with. . After a few words from Lord ALTHORP, the petition was laid on the Table. Mr. HOBHOUSE moved for certain return, relative to the rate, and application of the rates, of St, Martins-M-the-Fields, - since the year 1826. CORPORATION ANI) TEST ACTS. Mr. GYE presented petitions from the Disscit• ten of Boston and other places, praying for a re peal of the Corporation and Test Acts. Mr, DUGDALE presnuted similar petitions lion, Halesowen, Birruingliain, and several other places. Lord STANLEY presented similar petitions from the Dissentera of . Ashton-under-Line, Churchtowit, Lancaster., Southport; and Bolton-le-Moors. Mr, LITTLETON presented five similar peti tioirs from as many Oates in the county of Stafford. Mr. HUSKISSON presented similar petitions from the Dissenters of Renshaw -street, and Para : clise-street, Liverpool. Also from Duncan, Russel;, Great George, and various other streets in the same city and also from Norwood, in Surrey—hi all 30 . pair ROBERT INGLIS presented a similar pe- tition from Ripon, in the county of York. Mr. 'SIKES pz,lsented similar petitions from Chapels in Hull. Mr. Mclennan WOOD presented similar peal. Titions from the Dissenters of Grafton-street, Soho; Whitchtuch, Salop, and various other parts of the. Kingdom. Mr. MACKINNON presented a similar petition from a chapel in Ipswich. Mr. CAREW presented several petitions from the Gstholic inhabitants of various parishes in the county of Wexford, praying for Emancipation. Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented seven petition:, praying fur the repeal of the Test and Corporation Au!, from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and other places, Sir M. W. RIDLEY also presented a petition liom the Maltsters of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, pray ing fer a repeal of the Malt Act. Sir GILBERT HEATHCOTE presented two petitions from the Dissensters of two chapels of ostcn, praying for a repeal of the 'Pest and Corp !•ation Acts. Mr. PORTMAN presented some similar petition. from the Dissenters of Weymouth and other place. in Dorsetshire. Mr, PORTMAN presented a p :tition from the Maltsters (f Dorset, praying for a repeal of the 17,.Ta1t Lord MILTOiN; said, lie had no less than twenty- IY from various congregations of Bissell iii different parts of the kingdom, and in doing; he felt it incumbent upon him to make one obser 11U01/. The loyalty of the Dissenters had - been al. ways .exemplary, even at times when the Established Church could hardly boast of its fidelity, and he tinted that this mistaken loyalty would not be suf fered to go unrewarded. The petitioi►s were then brought up and ordered ‘3 lie on the table. Sir J. COTTERELL presented a petitiOn from the Maltsters of Jedburgb, praying for a repeal of the Malt Act. Lord JAMES STEWART presented petitieir3 from the Dissenters. of Glamorgan and Cardigan, Praying for the • repeal of the 'rest and Corporation Acts. Mr. J. COOPER presented petitions from the 31altstfts of ecrtain places in Gloucester, praying for the repeal of the :nth Act.. „ BOROUGH OF EAST REDFORD, Mr. FL'RGUSSON presented a petition from the , inhabitants of the Borough of East Redford, calling .en the House not to transfer the Elective Franchise to any other town, but to extend the franchise to the householders paying a certain:rent. Sir GEORGE PHILLIPS presented'a petition iron] the Protestant Dissenters of a congregation in Manchester, for the repeal of the Test arid Corpora tion Acts. The Hon. Member made Some observa tions in support of the...petition, and read a letter from the Minister of the 'congregation froin which the 'neSition _emanated,. statina that he awl his Ilri,k were lavouratile . l6 the repeal of all laws affecting re ligious opiions.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. HURST presented similar petitions • from Honiton, Exmoath, , and other places in the county of Devon. . Mr. HARVEY presented similar petitions from Colchester. The Member said, one of the petitions was signed by a County Magistrate and three Cler gymen beionging to the EstabliShed Church. RUORIVI OF : THE .COURTS OF LAW. Mr. BROU'GRADI adjourned the further debate en the Courts of Law, Ervin Monday to. Friday next. Mr. HARVEY moved for returns of the convic tions under the Malt Acts, from July •182.4 to July 1827, and also for a return of the number of bushels of Malt seized. The Hon. Member also gave notice of a motion on the same subject for the - 11th March. Mr. LASCELLES presented a petition front the '•laltsters of NorthallertOn, fOr the repeal of the Malt-Tax. Mr. HAY presented, a petition from the Ater dlantt, of Edinburgh, for the repeal of the Scotch Receipt Tax. CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS. Mr. C. N. PALLMER presented a petition, from Jamaica-road, Bermondsey, - for the repeal of the Corporation and Test Acts; similar petitions were presented from Bradford and Trowbridge, county of Wilts; by Mr. -Bennett; from Thirsk, Yorkshire, by Mr. Fvkinkkind from Ealing, Dart month; and everal other places; by Sir Robert Wilson ; from Mapleto►► Chapel, by Lord Wil liam Russell from a parish in Buckinghain, by Sir Thos. Freemantle-; from parishes in Kent and lievon, by Sir George Warrender; front King's Chapel, 'Maidstone, by Mr. Wells ; from the Unitarian Chapel, King's Lynn, by Lord G. Hendrick ; by Mr. Leonard.frorn. a parish in Suffolk; by Mr. Calcraft front Keppel-street, Russell-square, from New Se rum, and from Falmouth ; from 13 parishes in Car marthenshire, try Mr. Jones ; by Mr. Baring, from Taunton and other places in Sornersetshire ; by Mr. Byng from the Independent Chapel, Old Gravel . CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION. )Ir. KNOX presented • petitions from Upper Do neughmote, DrumlusJ, - and some parishes in the . - ountyef Detry, in favour of Catholic Emancipation. Mr, HEYRY GRATTAN presented similar - petitions from the county of Wicklow. On the motion of :Mr. MABEItLY, there was °Mined t!: he laid before the House au account of the total amount untedeetned debt on the nth of January iu each year since lb L 5. The motion also included several other ac "aunta connected with The funded and unfunded debt, and !tring fund. the metion of Mr. Alderman TIIOIIIPSON, an ac count was ordered •of the number of vessels laden with Ovals whith were entered at the Custom -house of Stockton open-Tees within the last . veur. On the motion of Mr. R. GORDON, axle was ordered ,n account ot the Ilma of money received and e.xpended by rh ttea3urvis and cl er k s o f the peace in the several counties of Est;;land and Wales, and the application thereof, and balance in Land in each county in fanuary last. Mt LINDSAY preSented a petition from the INlaltster) nr Wigan, against the malt Act. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIL :- QUER, it was ordered that the House at it) rising do ad journ to Monday-. • o n t h e motion of Dr. PHILLINIORE, a return was ti - dered " of all t h e Courts Ivhich exercise Ecclesiastical u i n th e several dioresa cs td. England an d th: names ' of the Judges , eg !s o t roafrs thea n t i l ,o l ,4. )e ilii,o Deputy t e i g , j 'rats of all the said Courts; al m hey arc appointed, and their respective situations." Mr. PEEL, adverting to the notice of 'tuition fur a Select Committee on the Police of the Metropolis, ~it i t b steed fur Thurbdav next, observed, that it was his iute n _ tmn that the inquiries of the Committee should not b e Bruited to the police of the metropolis alone, but should ex ttud also to districts in the neighbourhood of London. COMMII"TEE UP SUPPLY-ARMY AND orm_. NANCE ESTIMATES. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the order of the day that the House do resolve itself into a Committtee of Supply, and that the Army ;.nil Ordnance Estimate* be referred thereto; was read. The queltion that the SPEAKER do leave the Chai) was put and carried; but a, the tight Hun. Gentleman was about to-quit the chair, Me. Alderman WAITHMAN rose, and twice attempted to address the House, but the Speaker intimated that it was then too late,- and the Hon. Alderman resumed hi, seat amid sonic laughter. The Hulse havinggone into the Committee, Lord PALMERSTON held, that for the convenience of the House, be would, in proposing the vote, instead of taking hall the sum required ut each item, or instead o! . proposing the whale sum on each for six months, take a cer tain sum on account of the whole. It was necessary that a certain snoa_should be provided to carry on the servace. of the year:, and that the Mutiny Act should be passed, which Hon. Members knew would expire in the course of next month. The whole of the suns for the land force was 3,000,000/. Of this he proposed to take 2,000,000/. on account, which would leave a balance of 1,000,000/. ; and when the subject came to be discussed, and file amount of each item to be .sleterruineil, there would be sufficient for the House on which to snake what diminution it might think proper. .The estimates were made out at the maxi mount. 'f he way in Which he - proposed the vote would leave the question of numbers to the consideration of the Anance committee as much as if the vote bad been taken for six months instead of a year. Besides the 2,000,000/. ou account of the land forces, he would take 1,000,000/. on account of the out-pensioners of Chelsea. The whole sum for that was 1,200,0001. This item was one on which no reduction could be made consistently with the observance of national faith. He did not mean at present to enter into any. detailed explanation, as was usual when pro posing the votes for the service of the year ; but he thought it right to say a few words on the addition to our force, which appeared on the face of the estimates. This arose front bringing into the account the colonial corps, which heretofore were charged on the colonial revenues. This applied to the colonial corps, arid also to the regiments of the line and staff employed in Ceylon and the Mediterra nean. These, as he had said, appeared to be charged en the colonial revenue; but though so charged, they still came out of the ordinaries of the army, as the 'colonies drew for them on those ordinaries, and often for more than the amount so expended. It was, therefore, a fal lacy to leave it as a charge corning out of another fund, when in fact the greater part were to be Made by this country iu the saute way as the other ordinaries of the army.—(ilear, hear, from the Opposition side.) It Would be better that the whole should be brought into one ac count. This plan had been suggested by a Noble Lord not long since at the head of the Colonial Department, and had been concurred in and adopted by the Right lion. - Gentleman now at the head of that office. In fit ture, therefore, the colonial troops would be - included in the ordinary of the army, and whatever surplus revenue accrued in the colonies would be accounted for by time Chancellor of the Exchequer, and brought into the ways and means of the year. He had mentioned this alteration to ac count for the apparent increase of 3,000 in the number or men, though in reality there was a diminution of 5,000, owing to -the check on our recruiting establishment, which would be only 6,000 this year ; whereas it had been 15,000 last year. The recruiting establishment of time present year would be sufficient to maintain our force in an effective state, as that force would be 5,000 less than the last year. Now, the effect of the arrangement he had mentioned respecting the colonial corps would be, that tlicv would take credit for a diminution of expense of only 14,0001., while the real saving would be from 150,0001. to 160,000/. This saving would be thus made up on the land forces, including the addition of 3,000 men : On account of pay £25,000 Saving in recruiting department Saving in addition of pay. for length of ser vice to Officers and men, as there were fewer this year than last Saving iu the charges fur Yeomanry 86,000 Making Which with a saving of (on other items).._ 4,000 Making iri all a difference of 158,0001. as less than the amount of last year. It was true that a great part of this would be absorbed by bringing the colonial corps into thu general account; so that though the real saving was so much, the apparent saving was but small. He would ab • stain from farther explanation, until he should'be deter mined what was to be the amount of our establishment:, fur the year, and would move his first resolution, but with :he distinct understanding that it would be fully compe tent to any Member hereafter to renew the discussion on the whole amount of force to be kept, and the expense at which it was to be maintained. The Noble Lord then moved that 91,075 men be kept up as the land force of the year, bieluding• commissioned- and non-conitnissioned afiuore, .+4a not including the force kept up for the service of the Last India Company. Colonel DAVIES expressed his surprise at the state ment now made by the Noble Lord. They had been told over and over again, that the troops employed in sonic of the Colunies,were pai449Pa fide out of the revenue of those Colonies, and that the House, had nothing to do with the - payment. Now, however, it Ives admitted that the whole was a delusion,aod that the payment of those troop:, was to be supplied by this country. He was glad, however, to find that new light hailtroken in upon the Noble Lord on this point, and he hoped it alight be taken as a Proof of the beginning of a better system. They had .heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) the other night, a statement which promised a better system of finance 'and accounts,ind he now hoped that the coun try-were about to have the benefit of arm improved system with respect to our army. The management of our Colo nies had hitherto been marked by a most wasteful expen diture. Of this numerous instances might he given, but be would mention only one. Before the Colony of the Cape of Good Hope came into our possession, it used to pay its own expenseS out of its own revenue, and left a considerable surplus; but the moment it came into out' hands, that revenue was found insufficient, and it became a eliarge to the country. It would seem as if we desired Colonies solely for the purpose of quarteringaud pensioning upon them' the junior branches Of our Nobility.__ (Hear, hear.) Though he was glad to find that we were likely to -come to a better system, he could not go eking with the - Noble Lord in the course he proposed. It was said that the House could at any time withhold the supplies, if it should disapprove of the estimates; but the better course, and more consistent with common sense, would be, to give the vote at present 14 no more than the public service celled for at present. If Government were disposed to reduce the public expenditure, why not refer the estimates at once to the Enema Committee, where they had the means of going into the most minute investi gation ? After what fell from' the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) on a former evening, he had every hope from the labours of the Committee of Finance. At the pre sent time, and considering the circumstances of the coun try, our military establishments Were altogether too large. He would not compare them with tloeie of 1792, but would go to only a few years back ; and looking at our establish ment in 1823, he found, that with as much cause for a large force as at present, our military force was 21,000 men less, and cost 650,000/. less than the force of the present year. The Noble Lord (Palmerston) said, that our expenditure was 156,0001. less this year than the last: lie,,however, could not make that out. We had now to pay for a nominal force of 91,000 men, hut we could not briag 80,000 effective men into the field. This arose from the practice of having depot companies. attached to each imps, which in the whole amounted to 11,00 b non-effec tive men, who were employed, and whose charge raised the expellee about 450,0001. But, putting that out of the question, he found fault with the force kept up as too large. Ou referring to the estimates of 1819, he found the total expense of recruitiug in the United Kingdom was 17,000/., and in the present year 28,0001., though in 1819 the number of men engaged in that department was 8,500, and in the present year only 6,000. He did hope that these matters would occupy the attention of the Finance Committee, for at present they' bore any thing but an appearanc e of economy, and he must protest against the extravagance evident in the whole. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAINI, as he bad not had an op portunity of addressing the House before' it went into the Committee, would avail himself of the next occasion which presented. Looking at the amouot of the estimates, not withstanding what had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr: Peel) on the subject, he despaired of any plan which could be pointed out until lie saw an effectual reformation in the public expenditure. As to the Finance Committee, he had a high respect for many of the names plated on it, but recollecting that he had never seen any .public advantage result from any former Finance Committee, h e had no expectations from the present. Such Committees were iu general a delusion on the public. They were ap pointed only to get over the difficulty of the moment, and drive were never resorted to until Ministers - were were into a corner by their own extravagance. NVhnei as i the last last Government proposed this Finance Coinntitice, he was pleased with the apparent disposition to retrench some of our extravagant expenditure, lie hail never go ne over to that, but hunible as he was, had kept his former position. However, as far as that or the present Government would go to reform the abuses and diminish the expenditure of the country, he would go with them. What was intended lie could not anticipate ; but he was not much disposed to vote any grants on Ministerial responsibility. He wished to know what was intended. This, however, was not to be obtained until after the Finance Committee Aieuld report, and thus the delay which Ministers required would he obtained. They were told of a general desire of economy ; but when any particular reduction was point ed out, there was always some excuse for evading it. Re duCtions proposed in the navy were answered by the neces sity of upholding that great national bitlwark: RedUctions in the army were oNosed on some other ground ; and thus the several professions of economy turned out to mean no thing. lie remembered that on one occasion Lord Castle reagh came down to the House, and made . a speech charac terized by the true spirit of economy, in which be recom mended that the establishments should be reduced. The Noble Lord had been driven into that course by the refusal of the House to vote the property-tax. If that had been granted ; the Minister would have said nothing about eco nomy, The Right Hon, Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), had stated on a former night, that the income of the coun try,.for the. last five. ears, was 261,000,00 0 /., and the ex penditure 249,000,0001., leaving a surplus of 12,000,000/. ; but this surplus was to meet a sinking fund 0f5,000,000/. per annum for five. years, .so that in fact there was a defi ciency of 13,000,000/. Yet the House ivas.. now called upon to vote a standingatiuy of 90,000 men in time of peace, with all our debts and embarrassments about us. The coun try could not bear new taxation; if it were taxed further it must be only under a government with a military com mander for its head, and at the point of the bayonet. He begged the attention of the House to a statement of the expenditure of the country for the last five years. I li 1823 it was 47,500,0001 ; in 1824, 49,500,000/. ; in 1825, 48,500,000/. ; in 1826, 49,500,000/. ; in 1827, 49,500,000/. ; being an increase of 1,500,000/. ; on five years. In 1823, the current expences of the year, in dependently of the interest on the national debt, which was included in the above statement, was, 18,500,000/. ; in 1824, 20,600,000/. ; in 1825, 20,000,000/. ; in 1826, 21,500,000/. ; in 1827, 21,500,000/. ; making an in.. crease_iu the four years of 9,500,000/. It was shocking t o think that the expenditure of the country should thus go on increasing whilst the people were labouring under suffer ings of the most extreme : nature. It had come to his knowledge within the last two or three weeks that in one parish in the city of London, containing only 100 houses, 193 persons had been summoned for non-payment of the poor-rates. The workhouse of that parish was full, be side which there were a large number of out-pensioners. On the surface of society every thing bore the ap pearance of prosperity, but poverty was extensively spreading, though it did not meet the eye. Knowing this, he thought he would be neglectful of his duty, if he did not protest against the proposal now made, to maintain a standing army of 90,000 into. We seemed, now a-days, to have quite forgotten all the notions of our ancestors, and probably he should be laughed at for alluding to theta ; nevertheless it might not be improper to remind the House, that we bad no standing aims , before the revolution. In King William's time, when the Pretender was endeavour ing to overthrow the Government, the army did not ex ceed 7,000 men; but now we had of cavalry alone 8,000, with 6,000 horses devouring the country.—(A laugh. ) Tim Noble Secretary opposite seemed quite delighted with what he stated, but the country would not be so well pleased when they heard of it. It was shameful that the people should be taxed to maintain 6,000 horses in no way necessary to the splendour or protection of the country. In the time of George I. and George IL, great opposition was always offered to the votes for augmenting the standing army, though it was only proposed to raise it to 16,000. Sir R. Walpole however, had something like a plea for maintaininganartny—thePretender still prosecuted his de signs, and there had been a rebellion in the country. Ile had to learn, however, what there was iti the circumstances of this country which called for a standing army of 90,000 _ . men. On constitutional grounds alone it was highly ob jectionable that so large an armed force should be maintained. The precedent was bad. After again urging the necessity, of retrenchment, the Hon. Member said he could place no reliance on the stability of the present Government. One GoVernMent had already been blown up, and as there were two barrels of gimpowder placed under the present, it was likely to suffer similar fate.—(A laugh.)—How long it would last, how long it would be before it was blown up, what ennfidence its Members could have in its stability, ho* long they could hang together (that was an unfortu nate word—some persons might be wicked enough to say they ought to hang together), lie could not pretend to guess. --(Hear.)--On the appointment of the finance Com mittee the ether night, the House was most grossly disap pointed. The House on that occasion waiting in anxious expectation to hear, not an exposition of the financial con cerns of the country, but what sort of explanations two Right Hon. Gentlemen would make. On that occasion they made no explanation, but subsequently they had, and God knew, a poor kind of explanation it was. It left the House as much in the dark as before.,(lsfear, and a laugh.)—Fur his -part he could put no Confidence in a government of which those two Right Hon. Gentle. tnett.formed,a part, and he was only sorry that an Hon. Member, who had cut one of the Right Hon. Gentlemen to. shreds and patches and totally demolished him, should have allowed the other to escape without observation:-.» (Hear, and laughter.) Some explanation was still wanted from the Right Hon. Gentlemen. The country wanted it. --(Hear.) It was impossible to walk the streets, to go on the Royal Exchange, or to enter a coffee-house, without hearing that explanation called fur.—(Hear, hear.) Those also were his feelings, and it was, therefore, with the greatest amazement he heard the explanations on a former evening. When a Right Hon. Gentleman was asked why he had not told Mr. Tierney what was going on, till all the Ministers were turned out—why he did not mention the circumstance to Lord Lansdowne—whv he did not state it in his letter to Mr. Tierney—" Oh," said he, " I had no business with it; it was quite sufficient for me to send in my resignation to the First Lord of the Treasory." —(Hear, hear.) When the Right Hon. Gentlemen were driven Lard, when they put out the signal of distress, when they. could not form a government without inviting the co-operation of such men as Lord Lansdowne and Mr. Tierney, they availed themselves of their influence, and the assistance . of their friends, to carry on the affairs of Government in that House, but at last they had turned tail on them, and provided for them selves in the, best way they could.—(Hear, bear.) In so doing, the Right Hon. Gentleman had, in his opinion, acted with duplicity. He might perhaps be exposing his ignorance when be said this. He knew nothing of the way in which Cabinet Ministers were accustomed to act, but in the common affairs of life, if such a case had arisen as that which led to the dissolution of the last Cabinet, communi cation would have taken place, and the colleagues of the Right Hon. Gentleman would have said, " let us talk over the matter and consult as to what shall be done." He had heard that when " virtue admits of parley she is near surrender ;" but the two Right Hun. Gentlemen had sur rendered without any parley.—(Hear.)— They found themselves in the arms of each other, and surrounded by their new colleagues nobody knew how.—(A laugh.)__ Such conduct could excite only contempt--it was a standing jest—the Government was degraded by it; and if Parliament allowed itself to be governed by such a Ministry, it would be a degradation to them and an insult to the country. (Hear.) —The allotment of parts in the Cabinet really appeared ludicrous, quite as much so as it would be to put Mr Liston in Sir Georye Airy, and Mr. Kemble in Tony Lurnphin.—(A laugh. )—The late Chancellor of the Ex chequer was sent to repose at the Mint.. God knew what he was to do there. He (Mr. Waithwau) rather thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was a great encumbrance to Government.---(A laugh.)—After a few observations 'con; nected with the vote before the Committee, the Hon; Member begged to say one word on the subject of the pledges which had been so much alluded to. He did not believe that any pledges would be given under the present Government which were not signed on the drum head. The Hon. Member concluded by urging the House to watch over the public money, as that was the only hold they had of a profligate Government. in answer to a question from Mr. BERN L, Lord PALMERSTON said, that the House, by agree ing to the present vote, would not be precluded front here after deciding upon the number of men. He would take' this opportunity of stating, that what bad fallen front his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson) on a former night, relative,to the Committee of Finance, must have been rnis -, understeod. What his Hon. Friend stated must have been, that if the number of meta wanted for the service of the eountry being continually op&t►ted upon by our relations with foreign countries, it was a question which must 4- Ways be open between Ministers and the Parliament ; and that a Committee of Finance could nut, definitively fix any amount of force to he constantly maintained. He - con tended that the present vote would by no means compro mise the right of the House hereafter to reduce any of the votes; should the Finance Committee recommend their re duction. With respect to the land tbrees and Chelsea pen sions, he had adopted the mode of calling for votes on account generally, rather than propuse suu►s for specific items. Mr. MABERLY admitted that though it was impossible for the Finance Committee to possess the evidence which Government must have telativc to political questions, yet, when the Ministers come dowii to that liaise with a pro posal of numbers, it was full time to pronounce an opinion upon that specific pruposition.—( ll car.)—He was anxious to put the Committee of Supply on its guard against sane• tioning certain numbers fur the army or navy, under the idea that the Finance Committee would correct any extra vagance which should hereafter' be found to attach to the present vote. He admitted there were difficulties respect. jug the adjurtuient of the numbers, oww g to the possible operation of the secret article in the treaty of last treaty which be pronounced inexpedient, unjust, and con trary to the real principles of the law of nations. Mr. Secretary PEEL observed, it appeared to him that there Was no very material difference between the Hon. Gentleman opposite and himself, on the subject of the duties of the Finance Committee, or the course adopted by the Noble Secretary at War on the present occasion. it was undoubtedly true, that the House could not delegate its authority to a Finance Committee—(Hear)—or suffer a usurpation of the privileges it justly claimed to exercise. in relation to the establishments, income, and expenditure of the country. Parliament might listen to the opinions which such a Committee was called on to express ; but it was for the House to reserve to itself the right of coming to an ultimate decision upon all these points. In attempt ing (as he did on a former evening) to state the nature of the duties which the Finance Committee would have to dis chsrge, he mentioned that it was difficult to define them exactly, or to lay down one invariable rule by which the proceedings of the Committee should be governed. There were many parts and branches of the public establish ments into which they could enquire; and there were other parts and branches in which it must be left to Go vernment to decide. He had before instanced the secret article contained in the Treaty of London, as one of those cases with which the Committee could not be expected to deal, if it had been in existence at the period when that Treaty was concluded. Similar eases might again occur, the, particulars of which it would be impossible to communicate to a Committee of Finance. Under such circumstances, Government could not take the Com mittee into his Majesty's Councils, and afford it sufficient data for coining to a conclusion as to what ought to be the amount of our establishments. But what the Committee could undertake it would endeavour to effect. At that moment it was enquiring into the details and amount of the Navy Estimates. He (Mr. Peel) was not a member of the Committee, but such was the manner in which he understood it was then engaged. They bad al ready summoned before them one Lord of the Admiralty and a Secretary, who, there was no doubt, would commu nicate all the information which, consistently with their duty, they could afford. On every point relating to the actual amount of our force, the Committee had it in their power to get all the information they required. Among other topics to which the Hon. Member had alluded, he contrived to introduce some mention of the circumstances connected with the dissolution of the late Government, thus affording conclusive evidence, by the extraneous mat ters he touched upon, that a Committee above stairs, which could have nothing to do with subjects of a political na ture, was the best calculated for investigating our financial affairs with effect. The Hon. Alderman seized the oppor tunity to allude to explanations lately made in that House, but which he (Mr. Peel) sincerely hoped were now at an end. He did not exactly sec how these explanations con nected themselves with the subject before the House. Cer tain it was, that the Hon. Alderman had permitted the opportunity to pass away at the time when the explana tions were snaking, and which was also the proper time for remarking on them, and now came down to the House, when the Army Estimates were before the Committee, and consumed one half of his speech in discussing matters not certainly very closely connected with the subject of Sup ply. The Hon. Alderman's conduct on the occasion had this good effect—it proved that Government had adopted the true course in appointing a Finance Committee, to which the consideration of the details in question might be referred. Mr. CALCRAFT'dieapproved of the plan proposed by the Noble Lord opposite, for passing the Estimates on the present occasion. As for the Mutiny Bill, that might easily be taken for the same period as the proposed vote.— The Treaty of London, and those by which we were bound to assist - Portugal, must oblige us to keep up a large force; and it was possible untoward events might occur to resider it necessary to send back the 5,1100 men that were shortly expected to return from that country. He wished to say one word in answer to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) who took occasion to de precate the introduction of extraneous topics iu the speech of the lion. Alderman (Waithinan), and intimated, that the discussion of such matters were irregular, when the Army Estimates, were under consideration. He (Mr. Calcraft) thought it very hard to say what was an extra neous topic in a debate on the Army Estimates, which pre sented occasion for taking the most extended view of the situation and various interests of the country. It bad been the practice in the best Parliamentary times—in the time of Messrs. Fox, Pitt; Burke, Windham, and Sheridan— to convert the discussions on the Estimates into opportuni ties for debating matters connected_stith the general inte rests of the country. Such' 'Rini :the ease, the Honourable Alderman ryes fully borne out by prece dent in the course he had taken. :Had it not been for the difficulties under which the country laboured he (Mr. Calcraft) was satisfied no CoMmittee of Finance would have been appointed. However, he was glad, not only that it had been appointed, but that we now bad al most an entire new set of performers at the Treasury. Though experience might frequently be useful to public men, yet be felt glad that we had a new Chancellor of the Exchequer, unpledged to the deceits, follies, and disgusting quackeries, which it had hens the practice for years to in troduce in the management of the public accounts. He hailed the Right Hon. Gentleman's accession to office as a fortunate occurrence—not that he meant to flatter the Right lion. Gentleman, or insinuate that he was peculiarly qualified to discharge the duties of the office—of that be (Mr. -Calcraft) knew nothing—but because the Right Hon. Gentleman was a new man. He thought there was not likely to be any cause for laying on new taxes. To borrow money for the purpose of creating a Sinking Fund, was the extreme of absurdity. Let a system of economy I he adopted in the management of the public finances, and if there should be a surplus of income over expen diture, it might be applied to the extinction of the debt, or else allowed to return into the pockets of the people in the shape of a remission of taxes. He agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel) that there were points with which the Finance Committee could not intermeddle. Their labours would, no doubt, be beneficial to the country ; but he would not have the • House bound by their report. There was one item in the Army Estimates that filled him with the deepest regret ; it was one which arose out of the stupid policy observed to , wards Ireland—he alluded to the grant of 2:3,000 men for the public service in that country. The cost of the establish ment in that country, including land-forces, ordnance, and commissariat, amounted to nearly a million sterling._ There were the best of reasons for retracing their steps, and acknowledging that that country was ill governed which required force to restrain it. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the Hon. .Gentleman who spoke last had misunderstood the observations which he (Mr. Peel) had applied to the speech of the Hon. Alder man.—He never meant to limit the power possessed by Hon. Members to make observations of a general nature, when the Estimates were before the House, and had only alluded to the effect of such general observations, in order to prove that financial details could be better managed by a Committee, whose attention would be solely confined to them. lion. Gentlemen, therefore, ought not to object to a'Constnittee, the utility of which was satisfactorily proved by the nature of their oot.n speeches. Mr. CALCRAFT explained. In reply to an observation from Mr. HuMe. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that there existed no objec tion on the part of Government to afford totbe Committee every possible information with respect to the amount of our military and naval establishments. Mr. lILT - INIE said, it was now understood, that the Fi nance Committee could not decide with respect to the n umber or amount.of our estaLlishmeuts. The Commit tee might be willing to form an opinion, and the lionse be willing to take it ; at the same time that Treaties existed, which would prevent that opinion from being of the smallest value. He thought the present the moment when Ciovernment should state why it was necessary to keep up so large a force. Why, lie asked, were there 4,000 men more for the military establishment than last year ? Fre quent allusion had been made to a change of opinion in the Cabinet--he wished he could see a chative of measures. That he could not perceive. It was true a change had taken place in the lreaany Department; but the Tre 4 l'u r Y had little or nothing to do with the troops, and, with a very tew exceptions, the amount of our military estahlish nient appeared to be decided by the same individuals as had determin e d en i t f or t h e last ten 'yeas. If other Ministers had b een c h ange d , t h e S i not. The Nobl e L or d h a d lung concurred W dirl; had the )thought delusion, which it was so eq uently attempted to put upon the country —so l ong, indeed, that the. Noble Lord was h oun d to apolo l g ie ise ( f lk o i. for his conduct t o the House. The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to ob serve upon th e great i ncrease t h at h a d t a ken placein the expenditure of the military staff since 179. t. lie then adverted to the mismanagement of our military forces in the Colonies, the errors committed by Ministers with respect to the Sinking Fund, and the delusion thereby created—a delusion only recently renamed by the candid declaration of the Right Hon. Secretary opposite. He did not wish to see the Treasury of this country with a less surplus than one million or a million and a half; but if the Right Hon. Gentlemen were proceeding in an erroneous career, it was time for them to stop, to think what had been done with an immense establishment last year, and what was to be done with h this. He called upon his gajezty'll Aliaiattro to weigia a ;nova why they sought to maintain an establishment so eltortnous as that for which they now asked, When, in 1792, ntimore than 36,000 men were required for the service of the country. Even at the present moment, Ireland was garrisoned by 30,000 men, - 24,000 of whom were paid out of the Treasury of England, and the remainder from the resources of Ireland. He asked the House to call upon his Majesty's Ministers to de dare, why the prodigious accession of military and nava! force was considered necessary. For his part lie believed the state of the country was not such as the Right Hon. Gentleman had described it. He (Mr. Hume) looked upon the energies of the country with as favourable an eye as any Member in the House, • but he thought it altogether monstrous to ask for so great an addition to those energies Under existing circumstances. Why were 6,000 men con-. sidered necessary for the Colonies alone ? Why, but be cause we sought to maintain the Canadas, garrisoned un der a Government which they equally hated and despised. From what he had seen of the Finance Committe, he was bound to say that every thing with respect to it appeared exceedingly fair. But he (Me. Hume) must revert to the topic immediately under the consideration of the House, and ask upon what grounds this great military increase was sought, when, in 1823, it was found that so much smaller a force was necessary; although the whole of Eu rope was at that time in a convulsive state, and many of our troops were stationed in France and in Spain. If so comparatively small a number were deemed sufficient then. England had a right to ask, and to expect an answer, why instead of reducing the sixty-eight thousand, that force was sought to be augmented? Although the country had now a military chief, he hoped that chief would see and feel that England was essentially a civil, and not a mi litary government—that its military Government was a system which had grown out of unfortunate circumstances, and of a long war, in which we had been engaged. If we were to support a military government, on the same scale, with other nations, and to attempt to cope with despots who depended upon no other security, our finances must at once break down. He hoped the Noble Duke at the head of the Administration, and who had reached to higher honours and to greater renown in war, than almost any other indi vidual, would now direct his attention to those trophies which he might gain in peace—that he would look to England as to a country, one-half of whose population was in poverty and distress, where crime and misery were un - happily but too common, and that he would seek to obtain those far better laurels, which might be his, by making a people flourishing, contented, and happy. This he might do by merely reducing the taxes—and to do this was within his power. Let him see the effects, or at least let him try the experiment. If, like the Romans of old, we could get our tributaries to fill our pockets, a lavish expen diture of money might perhaps be pardonable ; but when the sums to be expended were drained from these of our own country, we should indeed pause before we went too far. In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, it was the duty of the Go vernment to reduce 20,000, or at least 10,000 men, instead of seeming to increase our present military force. Even it the Government reduced ten regiments, and draughted them into others, it would be doing something ; and this surely might be done, for the Noble Lord himself, in 1817, had said, that it would be quite as well to increase regiments to 800 or 900 men, from 500 to 600, as to add au additional number of regiments. He hoped the Noble Lord would consider what he had then said, and not depart from his opinion now. In conclusion, he (Mr. Hume) would pro pose, that " instead of 90,000, the figures 80,000 be inserted." Sir JAMES MACDONALD felt himself bound to state, that as long as be saw arrayed at the same side of the House men who differed so materially on points—not merely of party politics, but on real and substantial grounds—as long as he saw one portion of the Government sitting by the side of another, and charged by that other with conduct the grossest and the basest towards the SoVereign and towards the country, and that the charge so made remained com pletely unrefuted—so long as he saw such a spectacle before him, it would be. impossible for him to support them under any circumstances. These oEservations he considered necessary before he alluded to the matter under discussion in the House. It appeared to him to be not a little strange to ask for an addition to the military force of the country, when the. Government themselves stated that it was -not intended to saddle the country to the full extent of the demand .; and when there had been expressed a hope that there might be a reduction, made in consequence of the labours of the. Fi nance Committee, which was now sitting .under most favourable auspices. No reason for tbis.proposed addition had been yet stated to the House. The Right Hon. the Secretary of State had informed the Worthy Alderman, that he had lost his opportunity of making his complaint, which, ought to have been made yesterday- r now be (Sir J. Macdonald) would observe that the. orportunity of yester day arose out of a petition upon a Malt Bill, and that of to day out of an important question as to a grant of money. With reference to the Administrations,' the.past and the present, by which it had been. resolved to carry the Finance Committee into effect, many matters might, with much propriety, be left in their hands ; but it would be, he con aidered, wrong in the House to .confine itself altogether to their arrangement. It was true tbata reduction of the esti:. Mates had been made to the extent of 1,100,0001., and al- though he was far from saying that this sum was sufficient to sa tisfythe House, he acceptedit as some proof thattheGovern went was in earnest in its intention of retrenchment. Such as it was, it took away some portion of the sting of the Worthy Alderman, who had stated somewhat against his belief of the beneficial views of this Finance Committee. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN explained. Sir J. MACDONALD expressed his hope that the Fi nance Committee would resolutely determine to do its duty, and the most beneficial results might be expected. Lord PALMERSTON wished to say a few words with re ference to some of the observations made by Gentlemen on the other side. The Mutiny Bill recited a force, the greatest that could be brought into this country at once; but it should be remembered that a great portion of our force was always abroad, and therefore was estimated as greater than it could ever be. If the Crown wished to disband any portion of that force, no one could suppose it would be discouraged from so doing, because the forca was larger than the amount mentioned in the Mutiny Bill This would have no effect upon the Crown, or upon the House in advising the Crown. If the course which hc, (Lord Palmerston) pursued, left the opinion of the House just the same as if the vote were for six months only, then the measure might not , be , disputed. The Hon. Meniber for Aberdeen had been arguing throughout as if the vote were for six mouths, and if, therefore, the proposition bad been for six months instead of for twelve, his argument would have been just the same. The Hon. Member had complained of him (Lord Palmerston) with reference to the Colonial arrangement. Mr. HUME rose to explain. Lord PALMERSTON observed that the Hon. Gentle man would have an opportunity of saying what be pleased when he (Lord Palmerston) had sat down—this course would be much more convenient and decorous. The lion. Member had stated his wish that there should be a reduc tion of 10,000 men now, of IU,OOO more in six months, and so en, perhaps without end ; and he had referred to the state of our military and naval force in 1823, as a proof of the policy of his argument. But the House should bear in mind, that in 1823 our military force had been considerably brought down from that which it had previously been. In 1821 and 1822 it tad been much larger. At length an augmentation of force was made, on the principle, that over and above the force absolutely ne cessary, there should be a surplus body of 3,000 men ready for any emergency. It was by having these surplus 5,000 men, we were enabled so promptly to send that number to Portugal. It was asked, why, if he intended making a reduction of 5,000 men, he did not chi it by regiments instead of by privates? He would tell them why he did not. By reducing the 3,000 privates there was a saving of 110,0001., and by doing it by regiments or battalions, the saving would, perhaps, be twenty or thirty thousand pounds more. The way in which it would be done on the first plan would be, nut by any a ctual discharge of m en , but by diminishing the activity of the recruiting departments, and the saving would be a clear saving, as no pensions or half-pay would be given, no man being discharged. Besides, there would be the great advantage of preserving the organization or skeleton of the army, thus leaving them at liberty to increase the number of the army without inconvenience. Every military man must be aware of the difference in the efficiency of a newly raised regiment and au old regiment increased in number. • Besides, a reduction by battalions would fall—by the manner in which regiments are now divided, six companies going abroad, and four staying at home as a depot—upon that part alone of the regiment which was left as a reserve in England. If there were any other objections to the vote, he was perfectly ready either to discuss them, and the amount necessary, now, or at a later period sif the Session. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that he could not understand why, taking a vote for six mouths, it was objected to take at the same time a Mutiny Bill for six months. Mr. THOMPSON wished before he consented to the vote, to haVe, he would not say a pledge or guarantee, but s ome understanding from the Noble Lord opposite, that the House should not be pledged hereafter to this specific number of 90,000 men, but that some reduction would be proposed by his Majesty's Government. He thought this the more necessary, as • they were first referred from the Government to the Finance Committee, and then from the Finance Committee to the GoVernment, so that he thought it very probable that the public would; holm these two stool", fall to the grotwd. gsplingtioui had-of-late been very- much in fashion; but he should have wished that each Right Honourable Gentleman had been left to explain for. himself, and not for his .colleagues. Since he had heard the Noble Lord explain the manner in which he meant to make the reduction in the army, be had little hope of amendment. The Noble Lord had asked them bow they could reduce the troops.- . The Hon: Mem ber for Wareham had said to hi m , ". pacify. -Ireland"— (Hear) --and then he would not want 15,000- or 20,00 men there ; another Hon. Member had said, quiet Canada, and then you will riot want 5,000 men . there ; and he (Mr. Thompson) could akl another answer, which was, make the Colonies keep thernielies, or abandon them.— (Hear, bear.)—Then we should. not want,this immense number of troops foe' our Colonies. Ireland, the' largest of them, for he' supposed be might call it :a colony,: as it was certainly as misgoverned as any we hati=-(allitigh)--z -gave ut the most expense of any, sehilst She ought to give us the least. He did not wish to oppoee this grant, if he could receive an assurance of an effectual reduction being made; but if it were not given, he should be obliged to vote for the amendment of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen- Colonel DAVIES said, that the . depot companies ab sorbed 11,414 men, who were frittered away 'in places where they were not wanted. The Noble Lord had said, would they have them reduce regiments, and thus lessen the prime. of the army, and deprive theMselves' of a nu cleus round which to collect new.troops. But, surely out of 120 battalions we now had, some twenty or thirty might be taken away, without depriving ourselves of the means of increasing the army with effect. By that Means they would save ail the expense of the Staff. Mr. MONCK complained of the large amounts of Widows' Pensions. If we adopted the practice of the French service, of not suffering the officers to marry, with out they were able to make a settlement on their wives equal to the amount of their pay, we should effect an im mense saving in that point alone. He did not wish to break our present engagements, but he thought the Com mittee might look at this as a prospective measure. Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN advocated the plan of preserv ing the fl`erne of our arthy, - and not reducing it by regi ments. He verily believed if, in 1793, instead of sending abroad the miserable driblets of troops, which we were, from the state of our army, obliged to do, we had been able as now, to send a larger- body, the war would have been much earlier terminated, 'and thus a great part bf the debt perhaps saved. Mr. A. DAWSON compared' the House to a foolish gentleman, who decided upon what his establishment should be witl out knowing . what would be the probable amount of his income.. Mr. HUME said, that they were going to lay out 125,000/.' without having a shilling in their pockets, and . without the probability of having a shilling to spare, for the Sinking Fund must be granted to be a mere farce, and lie hoped the Committee would not allow it to be carried on any longer. It was absurd nonsense—he begged par don for using the word..-to talk of such a thing, and as there were many gentlemen in the Coinmittee who had . sense enough to see that it was, he hoped' the country would no longer be insulted by it. With respect to the system of funding Exchequer Bills, he thought nothing could be more absurd ; last year wohad lost 40 per cent. by funding Exchequer Bills. We had paid 4/. 4s. 6d. per cent. to fund Exchequer Bills that had, been issued to pay off a debt of 4 per cent. If he saw the slightest chance of reduction, even of 10,000 men, he should not divide the Committee, but no such hope could be entertained. If any man in the House was anxious to see Ireland pacified, he should vote for a reduction of our erns) , by 30,000 men and se compel Ministers to make the Irish people their friends ; for, so long as Ministers were enabled to keep up an army in Ireland, so long would that colony be subject to misrule. He should call it a colony, for a colony it was as much as Janiaica or any other of our West India Islands, cud not a - .portion of the United Kingdom. Mr. CALCRAFT defended himself from the insinuation of having gone - out of his way to compliment Ministers; and also against the charge of having concurred in keeping up the delusion of a Sinking Fund, when no such thing was in existence; The Sinking Fund, hoviever, must be maintained. As the law stood, whether there were a stir plus or not, we Were as much bound to keep up the Sink ing Fund- as any other portion of our expenditure. He confessed he bad the highest expectations of benefit to the country from the Goverument of the Duke of Wellington, who he considered to be snore likely to effect-reformations in the expenditure of the country than any other man in existence, save one—a Noble Friend of his. (Hear, bear.) Objections had been taken to the Noble Duke's Govern ment, as a military Government; but it was hardly neeese • nary to nay, that there wallet the slightest ground far sup- , posing that the Duke of Wellington would eager his a:IW.. tary character . to-interfere with his official civil duties. (Hear, hear.), -Therhad tried a Civil—a. very civilsnen•••• and they found he would not do. (A laugh.) Now they hadone of a very different character, who, he was sure, would carry on .the business of the. country with 'success. The Committee then divided, when there were.- For the Grant : • 106 Against . it 16 Majority —9o On our re-admission to. the gallery we found they Com mittee sitting. A few more items were egreed.to, but the noise caused by the re-admission of strangers `prevented ear hearing the amount or nature of them. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. Sir 11. HARDINGE rose to move the Ordnance Esti mates,. but owing to the continuance of the noise -above referred to, the Hon. Member was inaudible in the gallery. We understood him to say, that it VIM not his intention to propose a vote for the general Estimates of the year, but merely for one .half. He might be permitted to state, per haps, that the estimates to be laid before Parliament were those which had actually been prepared by his predecessor. For one thing he could pledge himself, that net new item of expenditure would be undertaken by the Board of Ordnance, until a Report from the Finance Committee should have been received ; and before which Committee the accounts of the Ordnance, in common with those of the other public de partment?, would be laid.—(Hear, hear.) Concurrence in the present vote would bind no Hon. Member to the support of the whole Estimate. He should, therefore, without detaining the House further, move that there be granted to his Majesty a sum not exceeding 783,5981. on account of the expenditure of the Ordnance Department for the year 1828. • . Mr. HUME did not rise for the purpose of opposing the vote, but merely to beg, that in suffering it to pass he might not be considered as agreeing to the Estimates at large. Mr. CALCRAFT bore testimony to the great reform• effected by the Duke of Wellington, when at the bead of the Ordnance Department. Sir. H.. HARDINGE had already said that that was not the moment for explanation, but he trusted he might be allowed to confirm the statement of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, respecting the raietion;efiected in, the Ordnance Department by the Duke of Wellington. Since 1820, when the Noble Duke was placed at the head of the Ordnance Department, reduction; had been made ( les co s m a p n ari a nLt u h n e t ch t a h rg an e f 2 o 3 r o l ,o l 3 oo 2o l., wi t t h h e t gre hat a of ter lB po 27Lto: n o n; which bad been made, not by any diminution of our force, b u t by reductions in our civil establishment.—(Hear, from Mr. Hume.) By the reduction - of 240 clerks, a saving had resulted of 47,0001. annually. The military corps of the Ordnance Department had been increased by 700 men. Other additions had been found necessary by the Noble Duke to render the department more effeciive; amounting -together to 91,000/, which, deducted, as it ought from the saving'of 230,000/. already mentioned, would chew a reduc tion the of een Ordnance sed Depart ment u r in e gt a h r e iDukeet to of the amount Wellington's management of ofismoot persevera nce in the system of economy, • (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME thanked the Hon. and Gallant Officer fur s t o h l e l s e c f ir e t r h e e e N t i o t i b e l i e s m D p u r k o e n ee . sty laudably beg un, what hopes might no t th e country indulge? H e also thanke d the Hon. and Gallant Officer for confirming that, whi c h h e was sure the Com mittee had Previou sl y felt, nam ely , that he (Mr. Hunie) had been always ri g ht.—(A lau g h .) • u u nßydabpy him upon th e predeces erse The vote was then agreed to, and the House resumed. The Report WAS brought up, and ordered to be received on Monday. rue ant uittee of Ways and Means was postponed to holiday nest. Th e Orders of the Day having been disposed of, the House adjourned at Ten o'Clock. , ---= SNoW S'FORM.—A neavy snow-storm came on here yesterday morning, about six o'clock, and during a considerable part of th e d ay, the wind blowing almost a hu r ricane from the sout h and south-west. We have seldom„een the snog fall inure thickly, or drift with rapidity and violence ; and we fear we shall hear from the mou n t a i n districts of the North. In b g a r d ea a te c r co du were almost i tnpas... -" le. Up to the time of a few hours, the high ways wer e li tera ll y bl oc k e d up; even - of Thursday evening, paragraph, the N ewcastle, Glasgow, mid Edin. have not arrived, but aro • . ib o ,uv u uori r ii.gt. s ihei t in ri tn e ata t ri l iiii y fine, and little snow fell (hiring the night, which was calla. expected, as th e weather i s now suicide* The storm appears to have been general. IA alin parts. of the Portpatrick Road, the snow is immensely deep ; and still deeper, we presume, in the lines of road which are yet blocked up..• Glasgow Courier. Anglr. Brazil lun 'Genet . Mexi< Ilalpt Hiber Provit n4i.k cwiso Gov. LtevA Royal Grand City I RAW ermil Ilig 1 while give of v in ti fills. appr easil Gaz SORE the inair with The mak to mod betw batu wave the burio ing t whic of u the OWN. path] will prep. B liensi singt after bad the b expel is ao Jame have Calri fessic coed has r act p Aunt this,l imne Ti just ; just, Yrsi T 1 matte