The Sun. — London, England, 1819-05-08 00:00:00

b ow of) t"6 e tl w" 1 ig as tic „ t .cteu be °P i e : e t' l " o t !o r ; hoogb. ot ste , 00 thy. rbe 131 , 11 [:000• - f je N , f :at A tli° , ber it re 6, c d i,ot 011. 1: 1e 3 ' 3 : 1 ii 3 ' 'll•6 I COW ' la w ; qenti c : ; be the ; by 0 0 t eci [O ll ° b r ed le (11 . 1 b e eo lie for. t ' 5 01 1 ." se vie' So :0 ; • Sel l" 4(I 1 '" A 6111' do 3,11 It 'kw., e too o' l ers nieos a ic tv , 0 1:0. tro irej ilTg it° be ef lie 1) , 3 . 3 . 7 e ' L L 1),,i 4 011 by :,(7040 Ebe l ' IS 4ol' 11 ,1 t" 1 , 0; n - ser6 ti °° l ' o , 6 sing h t ; -;‘, oa rY • , orn i t t- 0 rent to 981 to id C o ; eale 9 ;' s o bi d , 1 1Pc 't i teir e ;§ is)g f Par "n, nut of account the num • tro op's Th ° : ; in I n di a aad France, - t h ere was a :nun this Year to the amount of 10,000 men.— Ott" comparison of the total .numbers` of all de -triPti°ns of- 'troops in pay and under arms at beginning of this year with •those • at the be t' Bening Of la st yea r, t h ere was a reduction et entY•six thousand men. So considerable a dimi we'ion io the number of men Might naturally t` i th e Committee to expect that there would be a °Pottionate diminution of the expence. •It was, : yr ". to be recollected, that a great part of farce was that which had, been stationed in ;;:nee, the eirences-.-of which were defrayed by • e contributions from that count, y ; and, it ivai3 e t° h e expected, that on withdrawing _that part of army and reducing it, the expellees to be de rr'Yed by this countr y would be materially in re's", on a ccount of the half-pay to Officers :Zei, enr4tA•ons to th e men. • The Finance Commit their R eport, est i mate d t h at this Increased, e xPeuc e would amotmt to 250,0001. It had, t n e ‘‘ ,.. 'e ever, now turned out t h at this amount was ..d, and that the increase would its fact amount only to 88,0001. It was to be observed, 0 1 s i t n the total amount of the chat ge for the pte sent }rear, ther e was included a 3 u1"..4 203,000 i. s e le u was entirely a ppli c able to the expeoces of ‘ , l4l ents to b e di s b an d e d in the course of the i i ` 4l. • The whole of this sum, however, would j t " be a m ere temporar y expense, as part of vv° ° l ll continue and evert increase after - the s ee tte " o • making all allowances on this it trieht fairly be calculated that th e wh•sle ' of the .88,0001. would be ergd in aulon nt nt the reductions which wo m uld e take 1,3 Vo l e ?' So that by. the, , redoction of forces on the tr }ear there would he a saving sufficient to „„ ae Co the increased expenses of half-pay, peo nss hod other similar allowances, which wo"ld . ieen;he doe io consequence of the reduction of (; e i "Inv which had.heen stationed in France.— : t v iew of the Whole, comparing this year with ts;',l,st, there Was ao eduction in the amount of e.-1-14stinsates to the .extent 0f,763,0001. On ac- I t tlhu t nt those who objected to the extent of pa 11:',e'll4e in keeping up the army, - it was not tin e Ottani to show that theee bad been a- reduc sisi:,4, of the establishment to this extent. He erlt."d cll now particularise the various classes. on the reduction was made. In the first class, e.i'ol included the actual army in. the country, t et t o lt ns Staff, there was a diminution to the ex . 27 2,0001. 01 this saving 263;0001. was U,sere u sed by r e ductions. On the Stall, however, its was a small increa , e, 2,260 i, which arose „s em Medi ca l 1 t ailment. some years a o, a theirs redu ct i on h a d been made on this depatt ;Le. and it was now but jtutie: to say, - that 11. 4 1)6 '50n at th e head of that dep itiment Own s t 4 -, expressed an opinion that the,e .rednctio ,s °t Stratertha„ s•.'ss consistc to with t he e sigemoes ey - ` l `' service. Conti to his netuaos, how et Government had judged is better to per if t e 1 0 the r. then proposed, leaving trop a Ilia Co nisn ato:H:g Officers on the various sta ttig, t O make representations on the subject ; -in 4 supply of medical assisiance was not • sets l , 4 , 4l. licient, It was in'conseqoence of repre , , - " ll le°ns thus made, that the - asmall increase in •kies rte sent year was sr, easioned.' In the Barrack der'l t nient there was an increase. of '40001., uu nfriltttee heads--‘l. Au increase . pay to the tl s " e ts • 2 half- p ay to su c h as had' bee n re liatehalf-payleid ; ' anil 3. ,q tr ansfer ot•part of the stun whi.•ll , I°l ,lneily been supelied by Ireland. In ore!. tS t. ; tfi ere was a small reduction of -6001. I I:e tl e l e )ti ces o f the Valente``-Corps had been ed to the extent of 1,8721., which was effected tr e t 4e I rish Establishment, deducting a small in itee4se fo r t w at o f Gr ea t lititain. On the whole ° t the first class,' therefore, there was a ' v lsri ti " of 272,0001. 'On the 'second class , 1 1 , 4 ; :(1 Included the half-pay,' gratuities, &a. there v . " i ncrease of 213,0001. In the third class, ia'i e 4ts i '"us ire ms stood thus :—For the Military -4 dimilltition of 2401. ; for the garrisons, '"ea 2,2591., occasioned ;by arrange- Ne et of • for !educing some garrisons its ti North . -Bri e ! l e', to the' full-pay, a diminu'tion of 5,3211. ; "If -pay, an increase of 87;3591.; in the nri f :Y of f ore i gn troops , a di m i nu tion of 6,6001. t ,"e Chelsea;List, an increase of 121,0601., Mite'(h°wever, was not all an increased charge 7 7,(6,-,, L e4 increase on -that item being only 3 ,•40 0 r. - --iu the Military Asylum an increase of 6 ,2471' s- in Widows'e Pensions,. an increase of 41 04 - ; tinder the 'head of Bounties and Pen le ‘e s 411 increase of 6,7001 —superannuated al irateaties, an i ncrease o f 2,9651., which ar ose t heth e " reductions i n the course o f t h e y ear . O n 'Oil Wh ole, th ere was an increase of 58,0001. ef I Y. t viaile there was . a diminsition in the number lie 1) " to the extent of 9800. Before concludiug, th e I ‘ l .. i ,'lted to noti c e that part of the Report of NI , 1 tld nce Committee which related to tiPe ‘laq ' t " i ss• 'The persons who were provided for er this class were officers who had beets to the er )3 service—the Widows and orphans of 4h at e Who had fallen. When it was considered tal i thes e were the objects provided for, and the OecasiCalied the increase were taken tl et - v 'ew, he WAR sure the House wool.: teel the I hle t of providing for claims so just and hotinur• rl as to th e ot h er part o f t h e expen dit ur e 'Llte.' rel ate d to the •efficient - part of elle. army, .ear with comp are the amount Of force in this t i Wi th some' of -the previous teats since the usi(l nt the w ar . tompsering the whole lai ti lint of forc es i n the begioning of this year r_',those in t h e b eginning of 1817, ' b ete was Leeltuction of 41,°98 men, and- a saving of 41 3 6 6 M001. •; compared with the begitosing of 1 , 5 6 the di m i nution was 62,982 men an d 1 11 4 ,, u10001 , in Money. The 'Noble Lord then e b d his first R esolu tion:—That 258,7261. 11, lan e e g r anted to hi s M a j esty f or com pl et i ng t h e jn t tier j e rinited f or the Land Forces at Home and 'eC " l " o les (excelling; India), from Decent eel: 1818, ti, December 24, 1819. zh e ,, e "'el DAVIs t h ottaht that on the whole army. 127mcf"uld a reducti o n to the extent of 'ltirneejt• in elnding infantry and cavalry. The 4 " 4r e . , n f Gener a l Offi cers, he thoug h t, m i g h t b e Y d e . ca eased. In the Staff there was this t lint ireland, where there was a -• ioree than • • was larger C't - in England, 'stele . a Nta t e t gave notice'that when the Report WrtS °P b e would move fur a reduction to the . . . extent of 120,000 Z, and would then enter iuto-de ulils, and show how it could be made. Mr. flums expressed his.senSe of the merits of the Army.- But he considered he had a duty to perform, in the present situation of the country,' to see tow tar the Army could be reduced e So as to preserve its efficiency. I< was l!is Opinion that a teditction beyond . that which the Noble Lord now proposed could be safely- made. To prove this, he referred ,to the . Report of the Fitianee Committee. ,From the documents befoie the House, it did not appear that . the're . would be such a reduction as was mentioned by the. Noble Lord. But the most melancholy prospect was t that the Report stated the expence of the Amoy for the . year 1820, which- it appeared would not be one .hundred pounds less than that of this year. He was some. when she House SPIV', the total amount of the expenditure, that . they would see the necessity of doing something . in this matter. First of all he wished to call the atteptiou of the' House to the stare of the. Mil itary College. They would scarcely believe that there were four hundred students at :his College, a number which, allowing four years' education, ought to supply the army ,with 100 officers.yearly. But what w:ts the fact ? During the last four years, the College had only supplied in all 76 Officers, of whom 52 got -commissions by pur chase, and 24 without. At this rate each of these Officers bad cost the country 11501. for their edu cation at the College. There was another point to which he wished to call the particol.!r at tention of the Committee._ thiriog th'e last four years Government bad made many re ductions, which, he had no doubt, gave them much pain. But for what reason, while these reductions were going on, and hundreds of able officers of all ranks bad been put on hall pay, had about two hundred and seventy new commissions been granted, thus throwing' so many new annoitants on , the public, and doing great injustice to those gallant officers who had already served their country, and would be happy to be employed again . ) The Royal—Asylum was another subject , deserving attention : 36,0001. a year was .there expended io bringing up young children to capacitate them for soldiers. Mr. BENNET objected to the amount of the Estimates. There was nothing in the present state of the country to make it necessary to sup port such a force Mahe kingdom as 29,523 men. Net came 'edam'. What reason was there for supportiOg in. that country such a force, as 20,671 men ? Was it known that the adininistratioo of justice in Ireland was carried on with. the assist home the military—that all the gaols io that country were guarded by soldiers, instead of turn keys ? Setting aside the constitutional question, he could not but think that one of the means. of dieting az reduction of the immense force io Ire land was by retnAying this abuse. He must also call the aiteotion of the House to the mode of distribution of the Waterloo prize money. It bad beets dime in such a .way as to force in many persons' who had no actual claim ; while others, who were ugaged in protecting the fltoks and baegar e e of, the army., were excluded. Officers, who at the time of the battle were on the sea— WA,. instead of being in the. field, had been lounging in St. James's-street, and had after wards travelled en bourgeois' in their chaises to Paris,, had been admitted to a full share of'.this pr'ize money, :front which the cebers, actively en gaged with the arniy; were excluded. Medical Officers who bad acted in the field bad also. been most unjustifiably excluded. Sir A. Hors remarked on the objection which had been made by the non. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) to the grant for the Asylum. That Hon. Gentleman would have the House discharge the poor orphans who were now supported there. Mr. Hums explained. The last thing which he thought of ,proposing was discharging 'the children. Sir A. 11(7prt apologized. The Hon. Gentle man bad also objected to the vote for :he Military College. It was said that each of the young offi cers, Voris that College, who had received Com missions Without purchase, had cost the Country 11501,, a n d t hi s was made out by dividiug the total amount of the expences of the College by the number of these officers, and charging each of them • with the amoont of.pne twenty fourth of the total expenses. It was needless to remark on the fallacy and absurdity of such a statement. Btu the lion. Gentleman had wholly mistaken the facts, for the number of officers educated at the Military College, and now remaining unprovided with commissions, was only sixteen.—(Wear, hear !) Sir iSAAC COFFIN said, - he had no objection whatever to make to. the Army Estimates, and hoped that equal liberality would be shoWn to the service to which he belonged. Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to some objec tintes which had been made to the number of men in welt regiment, said, that it would be impolitic to fill them up to the usual complement in a time of peace. If that were done, and a war were . to break out, the only means of • augmenting our forces . would. be by raising new regiments ; whichit watt obvious would he attended with great delay and inconvenience : whereas by the present regulasion, considerable addition con hl be made to the army, by, filling up each regiment.— He did not mean then to enter on' the subject of tbe Irish Staff, as it was under the consideration of Govetnmeur, and would be matter of future dismssion. The Military College merited the sup- Port of the country,• as it hell supOlied the army with many able and meritorious officers. It was well known how great an ioconvenience , , on the breaking out of a war, it was not to have scientific. officers—and scientific officers could only be ()hulloed by experience or by instruction. Such an establishment as the Military College was 'necessary to keep the army in a stare of efficiency; tor, note ithstanding the gallantry of our officers, witrout either that experience which.' war 'afford ed, or that instruction which it was the object of (his College to give, they most yield to men of superior . science. As to the extent of that este -I)lklinteut, it, was hoe .fotool that it turned out more Cadets than could be provided is ithcomtnis- . !,ions, mot the•shopou of_ the army .on its peace estabiisiment. It that %vete the case hereafter, ‘here could be no hesitation in m aking a prop o,r _ tionate !eduction in that Institution. Tile Hun. Gentlenint) (Mr . Home) had said, that the half- pay system required sui ions attentioA, and recom mended; as a. mt•as+tre of jostice and economy, that the Conitoissions should be filled up troth that list. He bad lint gone the length of saying, that all commissions should ebe - so'fikled op. Many offi cers on half-pay, it was recollected, were those who hall obtained commissions for raising corps, and ‘vho:.htial always beet) given to' understand that they would be reduced and put on half-pay ; they had, in fact, merely :oirchased in'that rmoner an annuity for life. Yet the Commander-in-Chief had always paid attention to the expediency of filling up commissions out of the half 7 pay liSt, .and if the half.pay,ofthe officers remOved from that .114 were calculated-at 12 years purchase-money, 2,678,0001. had been saved in that• way to the public. On . the angmentatioo of thc l Army in 1815, there 1"14(1 been appointed to commissions 839!offieers from that list, whose half-pay at twelve years purchase Would have ; cost the public 226,0001. It was said that the ComMander-in.Chief might, by pit ting ari officer on half-pay, grant an annuity with out the consent of Parliament. But this view of the subject was not correct, as, mileas by exchange with another officer on half-pay, no officer was put on the , half-pay list except by the reduct ion of his corps, which *as a matter of general ar rangement. As to the Military Asylum, the object of it had met with general approba tion from all parts of the House. It was . , ,in fact, a charitable institution ; and there could not be better objects of chat ir han those for whom his establishment provided....-the Orphans ot Of ficers who had died in the service, or the Children of. those, who, being ordered on foreign service, were oniable'fo attend to their education. It was said, that with a Peace Establishment such an in stiNtion was not necessary. Mitt how short a time had elapsed , since we Wad a most numerous army? There were now constantly more candi dates for admission frotn among the orphatis of soldiers than could he taken in ;. but it peace con ' tinned for some time, there might he ronm for reduction. In reply to the observation respect ing the Waterloo grant, and the coMplaint that the MediCal Staff at Brussels had no' share in it, he stated, titer the rule was", that as this sum was granted as prize-money to those who bad been 'engaged in the battle of Waterloo and the cap ture of Paris, those only who were engagpol in battle, in the sieges of fortresses, or in the capture of Palk, were to ,share. The garrisons in the rear of, the, army at Ostend, Brussels, - and other places, were, by this, rule, excluded.- It often happened that those who performed duties of great danger did not obtain prize' money which was shared by pet soots svho had undergone less difficulty or hazard. But this was inherent in the nature of prize money. It was necessary to draw a•distinet line somewhere ; and' as to the Medical Officers at Brussels, though they had pertormi'd a laborious and responsible duty under very disadvantageous circumstances, they could not be admitted to share unlesi the whole of the troops in the rear, including a ye ' teran battalion", which had two days before ar rived from England, had been admitted so share also. lf,the care of the wounded of itself gave a claim to prize !volley, the Medical Officers at Deal (whither many of the wounded were re moved) would have a claim. Ile contended that former years did not form a fair criterion as to the amou n t of force required in the present year. In the last year Sir W. Burroughs'had moved to rednce 10,000 men, and a Noble Lord (Lord Althorp) had proposed a reduction. of ,5000 : men only, yet in the present year 9,500 men had been reduced. General G.ASCOIGNIt thought the Medical Of& cers at Brussels entitled to a share of the Water, 100 grant. lithe Noble Lord's rule, that .chance, not Merit, decided whO should share, held good as to prize-money in general, it could not apply to, a sum voted for meritorious service.. He com mended the conduct of the Commander•in-Chief in filling tip of commissiops. In his own.regiment five vacancies had occurred, - all of which were filled np. by officers from half-pay. Lord ALTIIOLIP called to mind, that when on a former occasion he had proposed a reduction of 5000 men, it was not that he desired no greater reduction, but because the House had previously negatived.a 'motion for reducing 10,000 men. The establisl.ment for England of 29,000 men seemed to him enormous, especially at a time when only two millions were applicable to the reduction of our enormous debt. The force in Ireland, great as it was, might he necessary, but that necessity Was only created by the mis•government of that country. • After some explanations between Colonel DA VIS, Lord PALMERSTON, and-Mr. Hume, . . Mr. BENNE,T icinesked that the Medical Staff at, Lisbon, I.ladajos . , Salamanca, Vittoria, had shared in the prize-money-of the battles at which they bad rlpt been present, and were conceived to ,be justly entitled to it. Sir R. WlLsoiv was of opinion the Medical Offi cers were entitled to'share—the army .always re garded their claims most favourably. He wished know.howlu happened that officers were con tinued on the army list who had only temporary rank Lord PALMFRSTONT said, the medical officers in question could not, according to any rule, be admitted .withont.admitting all the British troops in the Netherlands. The names . of officers who had' temporary rank; were only continued on, the army list as a matter of ,courtesy to them; tiny received no pay. Mt.'BuNtisT,said, the medical officers. at 'Lis , hon had shared the prize 7 ruoiley of battles at.4o leagues distance. Even Con►miss:3ties' who were never near the battle of Waterloo, had shared the grant froth which 'the medical men were excludetL—The 'motion was agreed The following sums were then, voted :- 152,5051. for General and Staff Officers,. and Officers of Hospitals. 150,2281. for the Officers of the Public Departments 'of the Army. 29,0351. for Medicines and Surgical Materials. 121,6681. for Volunt eer Corps. • 2-5,1731. fur the Royal Military College. • 175,6411. for pay of General Office's not being Colonels of regiments: . 33,6581. for garrisons at home and abroad. • - 1270371. for full-pay of retired anti:unattached officers. .! 77(41611. fur half-pay and allowances to reduced otli:ers, 119,7501. for ditto for foreign corps, •• 42,8.191. jot, (:helaea Eioal ital. 15 3 6 b tl. tut - Kiita&iiabiat ditto, -1,173,-4&1: for out-pensi.niers of Chelsea and Kilmainharn. „• f;08 . 2 1 . f„,- t h e R o d Military Asylum. 101,1.221. f,r ‘l, , , i. ; I 0 ..." i ' VC 111310115. 168,i221. for allowances in,the Compassionate List. 20,7321. for allowances to reduced Adjutants of.-Ldcat ia 37,3371 for superannuation 41 official persons. 35,0001. on account of Excht two Tres. [Many items could oat he heard, so as to report them with any degree of acenracyj Mr. ARBUTHNOT moved for Certain snots for the supply of .the CoMmissariat, tUe Barracks. and .the Miscellaneoo4 Services',,cOmprehendini;, as usual, provision for the indwell-111re thß Civil Establishments of our several Culonies i .- -.. All the Hon. Member's motions wire agreed to, atter some desultory conversation upon time sub ject of the grants for 'Se ivfou n d land, New South Vales, Ceylon, and Sierra Leone, in which Sir J. Newport, the Chancellor of the' Lxcliet i tter Messrs. Irvine, R. Gordon, and Sir W. De Cres plgny,,took parr. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Moved for a grant of eight millions to replace Exchequer Bills funded in 1818.—Agreed to. The House resumed, m is t! the Report was or dered to be brought ' up on Monday,. BANKItUPTCY,AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. J. SMITH Moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration Of the Bankruptcy Amendment Bill. 'He then entered into smite of the chief particulars of the Bill. Altlet\Man WAITHMAN supported the Bill. lie was proceeding into' a long 'detail,. wiry, -the Worthy Alderman was interrupted by a continued fit of roughing in the House. CoURTENAY approved of the measure, and assigned his reasons. The Sottcrroa - -GENERAL was favourable to the Bill. The Report was then ordered to be taken into further consideration on Friday next, and to be TOWN LAND FINES. plinted. General HART presented a Petition from Jer e, miah Laughnan; complaining of the seizing of his , cattle by, an Exciseman in Ireland. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he would avail himself of that opportunity, to ask what the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to do with regard to the Distillation ',Laws ? lie expressed much stir. prise, that after having declared his intention of persevering in the system of Fines (spots Town Lands, to prevent Illicit Distillation, the Chancellbr of the Exchequer should have aban doned that measure, not troin Conviction of its inutility, but in consequence of x threat held out by certain individuals, that if he did not do so, they would withdraw from him their support. A system of Adniir,istration dependiug on such means for its support; was not deserving of the confi dence of the 'House or the Public. IVbile such vacillation prevailed, it might he'expected that any party of Gentlemen going the next day, and, under the same threat demanding the renewal of the measure, their application would be suc cessful, and this consideration wassnfficient to give some idea of the way in which the affairs of the ,country were administered,—Those who had large properties ethbarked its distilleries, were 'likely to - stiffer much from such a proceeding," and whatever the House might think of the system.' itself, - he was sure they would not coontexance a Ministry in so surrendering it. He was informed that morning by authority - which he could not doubt, that a body of individuals connected with Ireland, and who were usually in the habit of supporting the tneasnret of Government, had waited on the Chancellor of the• Exchequer, and dictated to him, in theptanner already mentioned, the course he should take upon the subject. Lord CASTLEREAGH was not a little surprised at the extraordinary exhibition of haste and temper manifested by the Hon. Baronet, who could not wait for the Order of the Day before he made iris .statement to the House. lie would leave it to his Right Hors. Friend (the Chancellor of - the Exchequer) to defend himself, hut on the part of his Majesty's Ministers generally, he would repel with indignation the charge made againit (Hear, hear !)—lt would be a waste of the time of the House to enter into a particular refutation. The Hon.. Baronet's connection with a commercial town might account - for his feeling with regard to the measure. .That the measure was successful iii a great degree, be would admit, but if it was at tended with hardships, it was the duty of Ministers to consider what might be 'the effect of a change its the law. It was as Oremature to discuss, at the present Moment what the Chancellor of the Ex chequer might propose as a substitute, as it was unnecessary to answer the stories which the Hon. Baronet had picked up that morning. He could, however, assure the Hon. Baronet and the House that his Majesty's,Ministers were not intimidated by any threats, but were solely influenced by a wish to relieve Ireland from the oppression she had suffered under the system. If the evils restd , - ing from it could he avoided without , injuryao the revenue, he was sure the House would receive the alteration with sstisltiction.—(Hear, hear !)—He had himself attended the meeting alluded to that mutting, and could assert that nothing of the kind described had taken place. His Right Hon. Friend had intimated, that by the encouragement of small stills . the evils likely to result to the reve nue from the abandonment of Town Land Fines blight be avoided, and that was the whole case tspon which the Hon. Baronet had got up the tra gedy or farce, or whatever description of drama-, tie entertainment it was, with which he had just amused the House. •Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD rejoiced in the sur render of a system replete with oppression, but thought the House had a right to complain of the manner in which it was done. He would ask, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had communicated with the great Cities in Ireland,,to ascertain whether the Coarse now io his contene &allots was likely to be prejudicial to 'the legal ? . And as he seemed to have resolved ? toots ahataining the former system, he trusted that lie was prepared with some snbstittity which, :while it avoided oppression, was likely to be ef.. ficient in securing the revenue. Mr. V. FITZGERALD defended the , ' system of ,stil ; fines, upon the ground of necessity, , and de-. precated the epithets that Were applied, to it. He ,had Supported the principle while in office' as a : choice of evils, and if he were still in office, he would do the same. He hoped that the measure