The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-05 00:00:00

)s• ; l i o ce be 'r CL. th el t he take , t; , strU etl' Of AOC• the v a v n e c i t beir leg• ad diti . o° t, obi ° bel jece e e ttead oc a rice " ot, ,,fsa trY e u se , itgfotir.-1 C t i Or Oo o' c OO 03 .4 here ,C Ver rai3B g . 00 der j )ip 1 fori l3e a, egg , ° ,ld c h beep s tro" t o et ' co. bee p ha d pt verildiere t t . ° e I I , y tjrj t t , oc e I T, the d iv r ed to oge tb • e o . . 0 00 q u A b e e° 1 a °e r beg e• char" vib e ' en t c oo' o f iitivoonto tcri i i f o rvo r e f tb ° r e- C r P. h re " 10` her ber Ite lij Lla i°t c e ,d •Ojile , u 1(1, c' il Tell " biro n tion , n re' N° lll beq 31 Ali o 'hoses attach e d to the present question of Registration tr a_ eir eo elreland,i which both admitted an d ca ll e d f or remedy. tnliewhpicrehcise extent of those abuses, as to the any fraud w as p rac ti se d , an d as t o its ctioltaparative extent either in this country or in Scotland, , tre *gilt be, and he believed there had been diffe .ence tatty float of opinion ; but still it had been admitted gene i i t - 1 -Y „ t hat great means and facilities for fraud existed and Present system of registration in Ireland, o la h u ad t had scarcely been denied by any one w himself to the subject, that occasional iienh tt_lTees of fraud had taken place. The point whi ch system b ee Zyg ern 0 most frequently adverted to, was a 41 ) ,. , of certificates and the facilities afforded there -1,14 fraudulent personation of either dead or ab- Ni' voters and the retention of persons on the ttry who tat - , eao, after they had once been placed on the _ ti . ' were left there, without any opportunity for sub . se_- '9 eat correction or revision, during the whole period for Which the registry remained in force—that was, tie theliadwer, present Irish reform law, for a period of 8 years. vie..,,ulese certainly were practices for which no one Po " stand uP, and which every one who . had s 1,,, te _ i t on the subject professed himself anxlou Ithie , orre et ___ (Hear.) In any measure, therefore, they h her Majesty's Government would bring forward, ~. would endeavour to put an end to such palpable "Kt ob v i o Lop us abuses as those to which he referred. The t o T t al and oue.sided system of appeal which was confined *ltsl- a •PPeal in favour . of the franchise, which (lhietunited to the claimant, and denied to the a toteehi:, had also formed a subject of general ff *hii,". With respect to the appeal on matters of ac sifted a n dtder the Irish Reform Act, were necessarily full}'for sh e har decided on before a tribunal duly constituted %hely. PoT,ge, which under the Irish Reform Act—and under sliictir,2. of Act atone--were substantiated by the pro- Itis tl - e 7 of titles and other documents, and by viva voce be %IN's.", none of which things or persons it might tim e n . l ent or feasible to bring again together at another .th s e , ' 111 another place, or before another tribunal—with th e to these facts, he did not think it would be fair such ssi,,,te'anant to grant an appeal or a re-hearing on it I votildl of fact.--( Hear, hear.) But he did think t h e fr ue . /cry fair to give the appeal both ways—against a s ~eachise as well as in favour of it, and to the objectornall the to the claimant, on all matters of law, o and ll ti le le lorolving the construction of Acts of Parliament, it was an itportgal Merit s of the case ; provided always, and the n t T ' t Proviso, and one on which he had always insisted la. o ,, id ue had addressed himself to that part of the subject— s)o aed that, in the first place, they placed the franchise .l l'leer s i lel r and distinctly ascertained basis—( Alinister . ia 114,47 -not on a basis such as the present, which was ( 1 1e ne '_ aMbiguous, and of doubtful interpretation.— orl,e:!beeidior:ehy should not, "I I his ao secsi ti ici n n ci dearbo,entire franchise of the Irish . peop . ktit s an upper and professional tri e bu t n o al where teeh ili • . i aU to be adjudicated on by a strict, precise, and Ile ha? Interpretation of a doubtful and ambiguo , u; law. 'tea ~ therefore, thus far indicated the lengths which_h ie e ( Lor P d re L ,P a red to go with the Noble Lord . opp . osi t te o . , i 4 if ,I"Peth) was sure it was pleasing to him travel l 'he ti '''ord Sr 1 ~, ) company as far as he was able. t 4rti7ie(the Ministers)ane Stanley's) prepared to abolish . the use o for Q , d at es, and of make the register, which might have been Ni n e ' under due precautions, the test of the right lie i l,g 4 t eked They were prepared to allow an ap uoth e ns. wer s , erii wa ys, to the objector as well as to the claimant, "kael,arneot should have first consented to place the I P - " lse On ,eet to , a clear and intelligible footing. With re '4t e• me new periodical revision, he (Lerd . Morpeth) N ae, , ot e by his to take the same course for it as that her '''d 1 hi s Noble Friend—that was, that it occur once t y year esui,, i , b ut whilst lie ( Lord Morpeth) allowed . the 1 1'43 4 t t° ta ke place after the interval of one year, m he ,1 44t ei ' j p r ePared t g" up a point for which he co - " t Ptis e -as t t , Yea!, though without suc . cess, which was to lii e i, , .0 Irish voter of that facility and advantage r i lt ; t he q u ell "' enjoyed of preferring his claim to register or_ '1 14 ) 4 0 -4rte rlY Court of the Assistant Barrister—the .lit Ni e li ,-ourt °C Quarter Sessions. That was a aci y Ilith tt,°o Irish vote had ion enjoyed. It was a Court ( 41 , 1 e w ",, ich he was familiar and g to which all the habits e (Lo rd ms of his life natural( accustomed him. him `, 4 iie rPetia) would not be for taking +or ti s'rantages and accommodations which fro h m e bad I , s , l4 ead °s ti nne past possessed. When the voter was o s n e c d e `sati e , , 11 the register, he ( Lord Nlorpeth) annuallyo called should be subject to have his title to vote . he menu question ; that was the periodical . revision which t tti hy 4,, °° ed, and which should constitute the annual in hes, e ; ° t he original ualification, by virtue of which i" c ht (l t t ai was Placed on the register. If nothing occurred 4 (1 ., ra right—if everything remained the same, llvest:d.NiorPeth contended that the strict searching . the Ejetlon which the Irish Reform Act prescribed in t tl, ak e - h t : instance wasquite sufficient, and he would not ' 4 lterb" r ight to ret q ain his vote subject to any further _it 1418 t pa rt o f ; and he (Lord Morpeth) could not assent t l etle`, - h rt of the sche of the Noble Lord opposite w 'Lehi, -"c vot er, after mt his title had been clearly . decide a d r , -..(h ia t ° have it called in question every succeed H i o n n g se y; L.ll(l‘,ha!'khear, from the Ministerial side of the ne 7, cah e i ri c u t would cause what had been settle o year to "' all ( r d 'll question the next year, and so on, to the end tvhiet, ilecorded time. That was not an . extreme case ')ltclt• he was supposing —it was one which, and na terci 14 1 U of ci rcumstances, might very probably . n in the present cep 418 Y l i ''' Q "PeCted to occur in Ireland; supposing d whe- d 'tit 'taut Barrister who took the more restricte an d tile eri l ; vie w of the ' elective franchise, rejecte tlli s e e'rnant, l was , made to a Judge , t he „ t e e°l( the alar appeal r Pea view of the franchise, and ,4inie „ter was by thatgJud e placed upon the register, the ‘ mil' e r ,io the next ear w g as liable to be compelled to prove , (le i T t a gain before the Assistant Barrister who had iPtet I n t 4 ,Peint of duty to reject him. So it was with re- Ao D W I , t,4e second • l of h Noble Lord. He ( Lord katt'e-'") woulde a r ea ' that instance, that the Assist- . ate, 1144,,,iiter tosl ° the ' i m n ore liberal view of the right ot c t o tl e y e 'yould admit the claimant ; an appeal was lodged i ra echi 1110 of Assize, who took a different view of the ld ha tine, and who disea;ded te voter. Thus !t, wou s, e ed r , e , k r y Year When the ir voter succeeded in being ,I . ,thr,„ °- the regis.ter by the Assistant Barrister, he would die ' le lt Assiz e be liable to be thrust off by the going 't, i te ,la te of Et At,ssize. The Noble Lord intimated wa in a ad hewhiisilirl L°P offs ' House on Tuesday evening tha t ) ade d 1, (411e of the topmast branches of that hydras .icii B.ecitile of his respecting the different notices O,frith he L i t ° , 4 l N t i u e e rp , 0 ° . 1 ,u i in a n t to vote should give. fur a ref erence ) l- ' '4 supposed that they would . not quarrel 4 i l i ' p art to to that part of the subject. Ile the as a eces _ . content with whatever reform was speci. a 'Nobl e 'at) , on the subject. He was glad to find that vot e Lord to N I r r alr ead admitted the propriety of the objector 1,44 Of the bon o the egistersta ” tin the nature and cha- I stating him no more than fitata perfe.l_ti-fn.; v. that reasonable, and b e was glad e uerstand that they and relae h at on th at ~ they would not have any question of dis t,' , ' he t subject. With reect to the Court of Ap taloa r 4ord Al rp th) proposed to retain the same pro i'llieraljf:4sell.)' .11".heene introduced ii into the Bill brought into ° ila t i l . °r Irej„ iris Right an. Friend the Attorney-Ge T tr,v_g was ~.71 , in the . Court of the last Session, and %I‘ 4 Pre """ tc niPlated in the system of. English regis tiiooies Ii by the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the 4- 41 4 4 . 4 i , i4 , ,, i 4 e l n e ts ( L w o h r ie d h A vv Io e r re et o h . ) ,, assented to the weight . , of P rf , ed against the propriety t A It t th e j„ d arid PPeid , a , Lich of the land constitute the new Court thei r they II:, he thought that that would have a tendency, lk i • sol e , . already seen that it had, to contaminate If % a l' ltifitTenri functions with the imputation of ld a b s e us t p h i c e , oiwi_ f ttki_ 4 se rieb e fil ., b a Y party prejud l ice. Pet"eiln.p,,,,,,,i_to measure to ower ( i t t he w i o r u rnost important w th 4 it s , te e estimation, and he Lord Alorpeth) Pr.° . th eir ee b are an to make the new Appeal Court consist of l itti ' e ters of a certain standing, who would hold ths e ga in . oeis 1 - 1 01 ,.. e - Dublin, and be appointed by the Speaker or de C ° use 3 of Commons. Having thus mentioned the Noter of , L ° F Appeal, he was naturally brought, in . the bi tli I,,`L'e topics, to the . question .. of the franchise. t'aßihitt, ~QaZo_ll,le Lord opposite, in his speech li the other guil t ' ,e;or7n to intimate that he (Lor . d , orpe h t , h) n w e a s_ s . f tb Lo,t he should be guilty of mixing uPt t-ti _N ia m r e, bt: franchise with other parts of the registration Ld tb at r:oth) a B° far from admitting that charge, he ( Lord of 't was tir ed him that he always stated to the House vie " b u tt kilt W, Only expedient at any time, or in any point fr s 4t i t d d 9, S absolutely essential before they con -4411-enfise 11-peeoetirtd pr?vt'sional - Court of . Appeal, to put the 41 01 .: , rbr q th ‘. 4 . distinct and ascertained basis.—( Hear, s ite Pat h) ,iil M i nisterial side of the House.) He , (Lord wO ue 'l t, ',oat think that any Hon. Member who and irl ° l' ll arite ' d t t ," course of operation in this question, d cri r 'and,. ''' e Proceedings that had already taken place I.I PC I R an d ot lld doubt of the i exPedi Hear, hear.) ill 4 % he 'ln,. ,combining the subjects.—.encyof cur- Nrespeot-Trit be permitted to ask, was the ( stateof t t hii t l i g ie s k 4 le el etw. t o e the qualifications? With respect in the !,ii , ' , l)la ec he b-ancluse of the people of Irelar— , . 11 41' 4 assi st minds of the Judges were divided—the . muds ti 4 gole slt taut barristers were divided—on leaving lie s ore s eat a d - . House, they found , ti tir Onio n , of 4 corning into that n- N ti eed that the two great political parties wh . o . c i f, kaattentio., _House were equally divided ; and i p f tr a y 11 11 it F oul t 0 the speeches in both Houses of ar i - kth e t'l its , ri u 1),, fo und that the Duke of Richmond was ar"ole-aruthority upon this question in opposition , to °1 L O rd L d oPposite (Lord Stanley), and that the ttiliitttLotsh, Lmeeisoni:stdrio,:.___ne(was of a different opinion from seenta Hear, hear.) Thus it was ;;11141;tileadWa' and its tlare' the Judges, and the bar, theframers i _ dministrators were equally divide( , and es p : raight"443.oetrplexed its interprotation.—( Hear, hear.) thethe et tner s of _i'l subtle and interesting diversion to the People bledtae law, but it was a diversion for which Wh„,the Practical Hear, hear.) No one could doubt t ea ;Les er li,lcal result of the present state of the law, Sq t r lt testi, erP!etation might be given to the sohent h M tk 48 it mieht for brevity be called, equally in ear\ "e conflict ( liws-eserne said of testimony and of opinion—( Hear, ahi er, Lea_ that it involved fraud and perjury t , i ! l M ello :, hea r , 1 t " 10 appealed to any Honour eealighteacd er . who would take a dispassionate and nd l ,hle t c ~v _ l e, w 0 1 the question, whether it was not e taalottisehiel'outsan end to such an inconvenient, unseemly, b let c , e r of cc ,,„ state of things.—( Hear, hear.) It was el iaa , , o ne in _.-paratively little importance whether they la to 'd be rleti ne or in two Bills ; but any measure which tr e ,'' arid °laity alter th eh ~ would leave this mode of registration in Ire_ tetes'' would cave this prime and radical esi un iittathlllariiike ic Fffect nothing in the way of sound and , 4 eqp ed to th e glsl4t ion- If doubt and uncertainty were otie 'rued, : wool Present state of the franchise, certainly the 1) eal , th at ic he. d be that which would place it on such a sh e .) li n e could be no conflict of opinion.—( Hear, i e _tlld I ) , 6;174 snug be that a basis for the qualification Clio . sele ct u: distinct ' 4 4 t , eeri ii . ~_ , net from the franchise and . from . all e qt,eticat Nrilis;uatters. Further, that the basis should h he h t n u ud a cou nteracting check against the intro tiia,. ed found © p operation of any such matter. He thought , j rat e asp such a basis in the valuation for the I oor_ i t i t : y poorsl'escrbed by the recent Act for the introdue- f 410 41 ed a nd rsll.lto Ireland, it showed upon the face o 4le t il disti nct e,finite view, and had been used for purposes te be 04c•reocirn9nthteil franehise, in opposition to any c regnary. They had then the desire, which was far more prominent and' prevalent in mankind, namely, that of sparing himself any pecuniary burden he could avoid. He was glad to find that these views and opinions, which came recommended by sound reason and common sense, had been strongly recom mended by persons whose authority he would rather have had than that of any others on such a question ; because it was that of persons who took a moderate view of political questions and belonged to both sides of the House. It was said by an Hon. Friend of his, whom he did not then see in his place, the Hon. Baronet the Member for Mallow ( Sir J. D. Norreys), on the occasion of a similar measure being introduced by the Attorney-General in the course of last Session—" That he regretted the Attorney-General had left the franchise open to dispute, and to be decided by opinion instead of facts. He thought the subject well worthy the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman, now that Ireland had been valued for the purposes of rating under the Poor-law Act, whether that might not be made the basis of the franchise. By the present Bill the proof of value was given upon oath, and landlord was arrayed against tenant in the unnatural struggle. It would be most desirable that a certain standard of qualification should be adopted, which would render the franchise incapable of being questioned or controverted. He hoped such a plan would be adopted. He was followed by the Honourable Member for Monaghan opposite, whose words he would now quote to the llouse. (The Noble Lord then read an extract from a speech de. livered by Mr. Lucas during the course of last Session, in which that Hon. Gentleman stated that he agreed with the Hon. Member for Mallow as to the necessity of devising some method of exactly ascertaining the franchise, and that he thought the Poor-law valuation might very advan tageously be adopted for that purpose.) He would not quote what he himself had said on that occasion, although he was under a strong temptation of doing so, if only for the purpose of showing bow little he was subject to the charge of inconsistency for now appearing as the advocate of the Poor-law franchise. The Noble Lord had the other night taunted him on this subject, he supposed as a return for his having given that Noble Lord his vote on the only occasion on which he did give it him during the course of the last Session ; but that speech would clearly show that he was not open to any such charge, because he gave as his reason for opposing the proposition of the Hon. Mem ber for Mallow, that at that period there was no power of ascertaining the amount of the Poor-law valuation. He would now proceed to quote from a speech relating to the ascertaining the franchise, delivered not on the subject of the Registration, nor of the Poor-law, nor during the course of the last Session of Parliament, but delivered in the month of May 1838 by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose absence on the present occasion he ( Lord Morpeth) deeply regretted, on the subject of the franchise under the Municipal Corporation Act. (The Noble Lord here read an extract from th© speech of Sir Robert Peel delivered on the occasion alluded to in which the Right Hon. Baronet stated, that he would not consent to a municipal franchise, which should be 30 uncertain as the Parliamentary one, and should give rise to a Corn. mittee for the purpose of ascertaining the number of fictitious votes on the register—that he thought the best franchise to be adopted would be one that would act as a check upon those seeking to obtain it, and that he thought the Poor-law valuation would be the most desirable standard for ascertaining the franchise that could be adopted.) These extracts which he had read completely confirmed the view he had taken as to the necessity of fixing and ascertaining the franchise, and adopting such a standard for that purpose as should in itself afford a suffi cient check. He thought he had shown the House that the Government, in the course they had adopted were fortified by reason and authority in asking the Ilouse to accede to this proposition for fixing the franchise accord ing to the Poor-law valuation. He was aware that there remained not the least difficult task to be performed, and the one not the least open to discussion—he meant the settlement of the amount at which it would he desirable that the franchise should be fixed. He was aware that he was approaching rather stormy confines, and that it was hardly to be hoped that what he had to propose would be equally acceptable to both parties in that House ; he only hoped that whatever differences of opinion might arise on that point, the House would believe that in what they were about to propose the Government bad been actuated by honest motives, and had proceeded on reasonable grounds. It was usually apprehended on the part of those who were friendly to a liberal interposition, that there was not a valuation of every tenement as required by the provisions of the Poor-law, and that the many deductions from the clear value, and the desire which was so inherent in the mind of every person who was liable to be rated under the Act to have the amount of his contribution reduced to the lowest possible level in almost any amount of rating con nected with the Poor-law rate, would have the effect of raising the standard for the elective franchise higher than required by the Reform Act now in force. He had before expressed in the House, as he had already intimated, his own opinion that it would be highly expedient to connect the standard of the elective franchise especially with the Poor-law rate, as the most satisfactory assessment of the kind which could be furnished. He had at the same time to explain that in the previous year they were not furnished with sufficient information as to the probable working and result of the Poor-law valuation, and that consequently it would be premature to have recourse to any final leak lation on such a basis. Ile was afraid that even at this day they were not furnished with as complete information as could he wished on the point, but such information as it had been in their power to gain they had thought it their duty to exert themselves to attempt to acquire, and to col lect and digest as they best could. As soon as his Right Honourable Friend reached Ireland after the last Session, he had put himself in communica tion with the Poor-law Commissioners, in order to obtain information in what unions the valuations were in such a state of forwardness as to afford the most light on the subject, and also as to the working and result of the whole system in the different parts of the country, and under different authorities, positions, and circumstances. His Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland select ed two gentlemen of his own profession, on whose character he could place the greatest reliance, and they were di. rectcd under the advice of the Poor-law Commissioners, to repair to such unions as he pointed out as most likely to afford the fullest information that could be obtained, and there to inquire as fully as they could into the nature of the mode in which they were drawn up, and where they could obtain information as to the lists of registered elec tors. In pursuance of those instructions, those gentlemen visited unions in Longford, Belfast, Kilkenny, Cork, Ar magh, and other places. Now, it certainly was to be wished that they could have comprised more unions in their inquiry, but the imperfect state in which they found many valuations prevented this from being the case. The uniformity they had observed in the course of the pro ceedings in all the districts they had visited, and the diffe rence of the circumstances in these respective unions, gave them reason to hope that the results they had taken were a fair sample of what would appear on the whole surface of Ireland. He was sorry to trespass upon the patience of the House, but lie felt it was necessary that he should impart to them something of the main sub stance and principal results of the inquiry which had been submitted to the Government, and he thought he should do so more briefly if he quoted the parties' own words ; he would condense them as much as possible, but as they formed the ground work of the proposition which he had now to make, he trusted the House would bear with him, while lie quoted a few extracts. They said that they had inspected the rule hooks in every union, and the minutes of the board of guardians, and had extracted the valua tions, that generally they found a uniformity. The Com mittee appointed in all the unions that had been visited, came to the resolution that a new valuation was necessary. In the unions visited, an opinion prevailed that the valua tion under the Poor-law, would influence the landlords in determining the amount of the rent; and a desire also existed that the relative value of the tenements should be ascertained, that each might bear their burthens pro. portion ally. Mr. O'CONNE LL inquired who were the valuers? Lord M 0 RPE Tfi said Mr. Haines and Mr. Vesey, who had made most minute inquiries in each union. The Noble Lord then read reports from several other unions to the same effect, but which it would be vain to endea vour to report without having the documents themselves. He knew not whether, from these statements, the Noble Lord might not reckon upon it as a triumph, that there were many 101. freeholders on the registry who should not be placed there. However that might be, he thought it right to put the House in possession of the true and cor rect state of the case. He thought the test that he was about to propose was fully equal to the test of the beneficial interest, or the test of what a solvent tenant would give. He thought that the facts and circumstances which he had pointed out went to show that a rated net value of 101. under the Poor-law Act would range very far indeed above either the solvent tenant test or the occupiers profit test. In fact, it was clear that there were many instances in which a rated net value of 5/. would raise the standard for the election franchise higher than it was at present, even where there was no suspicion of abu , e. He was aware that if the test of the Poor-law Commissioners was applied to the elective franchise there would be in some instances a contrary motive to induce persons to have themselves rated higher. But he thought that would operate very feebly in the human breast, as had been illustrated by the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem ber for Tamworth ; the privilege of voting being only enjoyed occasionally, and after considerable intervals, while the pressure of the Poor-law rate upon his purse or his pocket formed an annual drawback and annoyance. When they were called upon to make an alteration in the elective franchise, it could hardly be considered expe dient by those who had heat d the statements in that House, and which could not impugned, being Parlia mentary documents, the comparative number which en joyed elective franchises in both countries being extremely small. As regarded Ireland, be did not wish to enter upon that point of the inquiry, it being the peculiar province of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But he would not do justice to that pert of the ar gument if he did not briefly call the attention of the House to some of the most striking results and contrasts to be observed between the number of Parliamentary electors in Ireland and other parts of the kingdom. He would give the comparative number of inhabitants and of electors in different counties in England and Ireland in the year 1 837, for which he had correct returns. He found that in Monmouth the population was 185,128, and the number of the constituency was . In the county of Cif-low the population was 72391 at the end of the year 1837, and the constituency 1,723. In Bedford, in Eng land, the population was 88,424, and the constituency 4,134. In the county Louth the population was 94,203. and the constituency 989: In Cheshire the population was 260,462, and the constituency' was 12,000. In Ros common the population was 244,000, and the constituency 2,061. In Somerset the population was 327,000, and the constituency 18,415. In the county Tyrone the popula tion was 300,953, and the constituency 2,862. And in the county of Mayo the population was 366,328, and the constituency 2,057. He wished to state a fact in reference to the constituency of that last county, of which he had been assured. He had been told, on credible authority, that, at the last election there, it appeared that the coo tdu e c e y e had n i n completely f.ormed br,e number of electo rs now on dwindledthegenre tl g kel i no s 7n he had am that ounted only ti 500 or 600, and by another that the '• • f number was stated at between 600 and 700. Yet these I were the constituencies which the Noble Lord and Hon. Gentlemen opposite would make them believe was swelled up and vamped up by spurious voters. He did not think that any attempt to diminish such a constituency would be consonant with or recognised by the British Constitution. —( Hear, hear.) He would proceed further with his re turns. In the county of Cork the population was 660,564, and the constituency 37,448. In Yorkshire, the county with which he (Lord Morpeth) was but too proud to be connected, the population was 891,795, and the consti tuency 47,972. He owned that in this state of circum stances—in this relative position of the population and constituencies of the two countries, it appeared to him that it would not be expedient to raise in any degree the standard of the elective franchise as it existed in Ireland. He had already quoted his reasons for believing that a very considerable reduction of the nominal value of land would take place in Ireland if they adoped the Poor-law valuation, and that they wouh‘Lthereby lower the bona fide amount of property which would entitle to the franchise under the Reform Act. ( Hear, hear, hear.) Of course it would be hopeless and chimerical, on the part of Government, to attempt to fix on any precise sum which should be con sidered as an exact equivalent, under the Poor-law valuation, for the amount of value prescribed by the Act. It appeared to him, however, that where the Poor-law fixed the rate on the occupier as a matter of necessity which must be discharged by himself, and not by another, that they might take, as the amount of the rate requisite to give the elective franchise, a net value of five pounds, that was to say, if they adopted the Poor-law valuation. He would take as the amount of rate requisite to give the elector's franchise the rateage of 5/. He did not disguise from himself that in the course of time this might lead to some increase in the number of those who enjoyed the elective franchise.--( Hear, hear.) But he did not think it would be any sudden or violent increase ; he thought it would be a very slow and gradual one, and that it would be perfectly in proportion to the increase in the wealth and resources of the country. It would be ascertained by a fixed and definite mode, and it would be guarded, as far as any human contrivance or device could be guarded, against the possibility of any fraud or pollu tion. He did not propose to effect any material alteration in the tenure under which the elective franchise was at present enjoyed. He knew there were some who were for fixing the franchise purely upon rateage, without any reference to tenure, making the right of voting entirely independent of the period of the interest which the occu pier had in his house—( Hear, hear)—.and he knew that one or two very plausible reasons might be stated in defence of that principle. But he (Lord Morpeth) thought it would be a novel principle in a constitutional point of view. The only antecedent which they had of it was the 50/. tenant-at-will clause in England ; and as far as the practical working of that been developed, it did riot fill him with any irresistible wish to extend the same innovation, upon a much more enlarged scale, to the entire population of Ireland. It was true that this innovation would make the occupier, as to his right of voting, en tirely independent of his landlord. They now frequently heard, whether with justice or not, of the mode in which landlords dealt with their tenants who did not coincide with them in their political opinions. He thought that to give the right of voting, when there was no right of pos session, would expose a far larger and more helpless class to a much more real dependence on their landlords, and to risks of a much more severe retaliation ; and, much as he desired the extension of the elective franchise, he owned that he set a higher value upon the harmony and good will of the several classes of society. While, therefore, he would discountenance and do what in him lay to repress all undue aggressions of one class upon another, he would not originate any proposition which would have the effect of heightening and inflaming those differences. He pro posed, therefore, to annex the franchise to the possession of a tenement rated at the net value of 51. He had now brought the main provisions of this Bill before the House. It appeared to him that the fixing of the franchise upon the Poor-law valuation would go far to dispose of the necessity for the two other alterations. They would then have a fixed and ascertained basis liable to no fraud, lead ing to no disputes, and susceptible of no contradiction ; and this, he owned, was in his mind the great inherent su periority which the rateage code that he (Lord Morpeth) had proposed, had over that which had been proposed by the Noble Lord opposite. As a complete system of re gistration, the Noble Lord's might appear more complete in all its parts, especially if his wish were to draw the voter into the meshes of a tangled and intricate machinery. —(Hear, hear.) With an unsettled and disputed fran chise, it would still carry with it the seeds of endless con flict, and a continued array of antagonist passions and parties, which would only be overcome by that process for which he (Lord Morpeth) thought the Bill was admirably calculated—that of choking and smothering the elective franchise altogether. The system which he (Lord Mor peth) tendered to the preference of the House put an end almost at once to every possible litigated and . controverted point to which it applied ; and, as at once distinctly ascer tained and permanently recorded, supplied in itself a coun tervailing and counteracting check against the introduc tion of any abuse, and came down to them recommended by the concurrent suffrages of the best authorities. That the measure which he had then stated would meet with the universal acquiescence of the House, lie was not sanguine enough to anticipate ; but he could not divest himself of the hope that what he then proposed, the more it should be considered and the more it should he canvassed would recommend itself to the de liberate acquiescence of the most rational men of all parties, and to the general acquiescence of the country ; and in this hope and in this faith he would " move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to the qualification and registration of Parliamentary voters in Ireland." The SPEAKER having pat the question, Lord STANLEY then rose, and said that under every circumstance he should have followed the example that had been set him by the Noble Lord who had just sat dosen, and the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, and upon the motion of the Noble Lord as it originally stood for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law with regard to the registration of Parliamentary voters in Ire land, or, as it had been altered within the last forty-eight hours, for the amendment of the law of franchise as well as of registration, have abstained from offering any oppo sition to its being introduced, or any lengthened observa tion on the contents of the Bill. But, said the Noble Lord, if I should have done so under any circumstances, more especially am I called upon most cautiously to abstain from observation, when the Noble Lord by way of a postscript—an indisponsible postscript indeed, but a postscript only—to the great and pressing subject of regis tration, introduced by way of a clause and appendage to the subject no provision for the purpose of removing doubts as to the existing qualification—no attempt at de fining the present franchise in Ireland, but a new Reform Bill, founded upon principles unknown in Ireland— founded upon principles unheard of in England—founded upon principles of which no human being would have dreamt with regard to Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) 'Why, Sir, to imagine the Noble Lord can append this species of postscript to a Registration Bill, and that it shall not have the effect, whatever the Noble Lord's intention may be, of rendering the passing of his registration measure, ' and the remedy of those abuses, which, I am happy to find, he acknowledges almost to the full extent—impossible, at all events, during the present Session—l cannot for a single moment doubt. I ask whether it is possible the House can agree to this measure, without having any notice beforehand of the data upon which it is founded, without having any information furnished to the House— more than that, without information possessed by the Noble Lord himself, on which to found any possible cri terion by which, not to judge of, but to guess at the result and the effect of the measure he is about to propose.— ( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Upon what is it that the Noble Lord proposes to found his alteration of the whole system of the franchise as it now stands in Ireland ? Upon what is it that he proposes to found the deviation and de parture from every principle which the law of England and the law of Scotland, with regard to Parliamentary elec tion, have hitherto been considered to be settled ? Why upon the information of two gentlemen, friends, as he states, of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General, who have been sent privately by the Noble Lord to ten of the Poor-law unions in Ireland, and who bring back their re turns from those Poor-law unions, which the Noble Lord reads to us, as to part, from the manuscript he has re ceived—which the Noble Lord has not informed us he pro poses to lay on the table of this House for our guidance, but on which he considers himself justified.to call upon Parlia ment to accede to this enormous alteration of the fran chise. It is impossible to :follow the Noble Lord when he reads the statements of these gentlemen, as they have derived this from the Peor-law Commissioners, or rather from the various guardians of the ten unions, and to ascer tain upon what principle it is that this valuation on which he proposes to rest the whole fabric of his measure has been founded. But from what I have been able to collect from the Noble Lord's reading, I really hardly know whe ther I am to believe the evidence of my senses, or whether I am not under some strange misconception of the Noble Lord's intention when he tells us that these valuations have been founded, as he considers, upon the net value of the property according to the amount of rent at which a fair and just-dealing landlord might be expected to let it to the tenant; and yet the Noble Lord tells us the valuations so founded, giving to the whole of the property the net value, the rent in the market, independent of any deductions of 61., t;l., or 101., are found to be fifty and a hundred per cent. too high for persons who actually at this moment are registered as electors, having a 10/. beneficial interest.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord tells us that in the case of Balruddery he found 200 101. electors who bad, in some shape or other, a beneficial interest of 101. a year. The Noble Lord also tells us that of these 200 electors he finds no less than 50 the whole value of whose property in the market is no more than 10/. a year, if they paid not one shilling rent for this property. He finds also no less than 17 of whom these valuators declare that if the whole amount was let to-morrow it would not be worth more than 5/. a year, and yet these persons are registered as having a beneficial interest over and above their rent, entitling them to vote upon a 10/. qualification.—( Cheers from the Op position. Well might the Noble Lord think he would give me a triumph.—(Cheers.) It is a peremptory tri umph, but I could hardly believe that a system of fraud upon the existing franchise in Ireland had been carried on in any country to that enormous extent to which he now learned from the statement of the Noble Lord it had been. —( Cheers and counter cheers.) The Noble Lord says that the alteration which he proposes is a large alteration, and that it is a fresh settlement of the franchise. No doubt it is a large alteration—no doubt it is altogether a fresh settlement of the franchise.—( Cheers.) I shall not follow the Noble Lord through all the topics lie has urged, and which he says have hitherto been the exclusive property of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, of the com parative proportion between population and representation in various counties in Ireland and England. I should like to know distinctly from the Government whether they now declare it was the intention that the RefOrmed Parliament or the qualification of electors, should be based upon po pulation, and not upon property..—( Opposition cheers. ) as a Member of Lord Grey's Government, always un derstood it was distinctly stated by every Member of the Government, that it was on property, and not upon popu lation, the franchise was proposed to be based; that the right was to depend not upon the number of the popula tion in a particular county, but upon the number of that population who were in possession of a certain amount of property, which property would place them in such a state of respectability and independence of circumstances as would entitle them to exercise the elective franchise.— ( Hear.) The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies will not deny that proposition ; and I ask the Noble Lord, I entreat him to correct m e , if I am wrong in stating . that these are his propositions—th a t every man who occupies a dwelling, with land attached to it, to be rated at 51. a y ear, shall be entitled to the benefits, which by the present laws are conferred on those who are rated at 101. ? Lord MORPET H—With fourteen years' interest. Lord STANLEY—Very well: with fourteen years' interest. I heard a great deal said of the inexpediency of lowering the franchise in counties to 101. ; but if I rightly understand the Noble Lord, he proposes to deluge the counties,—(Cheers.) At the rate at which land is let in Ireland, every man who is in possession of a cabin and two acres of land, although he pays double or rack-rent, shall be thrown upon the constituency for the purpose of creating a body of free and independent voters.—( Repeated cheering from the Opposition benches. ) I hope I rightly understand the Noble Lord. Indeed, I take it from his silence that I did not misunderstand him— ( Hear)— and that I have stated his intentions as he wishes them to be understood by the Hou;e and the country.— ( Ilear.) If so, I will not now prematurely comment upon any part of th e Bill .—( Hear,. hear.) I earnestly desire to see it printed, and to leave it to tell its own tale, and to make its own way in this House, and with the people of England and Ireland.—(Loud cheers from both sides.) Lord HO WICK said, Sir, like my Noble Friend who has just sat down, I propose to reserve my views on this subject for a future stage of the Bill ; but as I was last year placed in the painful position of being compelled, on morelthan one occasion, to oppose, in reference to this sub ject, those friends with whom for years I have been accus tomed to act; I cannot deny myself the satisfaction now at the first moment to declare at once, and without hesi tation, that in the principle of my Noble Friend's proposi tion—as far as relates to the alteration of the qualification of voters in Ireland—l give him my most hearty concur rence.—(Great cheering on both sides.) Last year, when the subject was under consideration, I was persuaded, as, indeed, it %[ as admitted on both sides of the House, that the existing system offered facilities for fraud and temptations to perjury, and to violations of all the principles of the law. —( Hear, hear.) On that occasion I stated such to be my opinion, and the opinion which I then expressed I do not now regret. I said that I would support a measure which should provide for the more full and satisfactory administration of the law. I said that if the law was defective I would concur in its amendment; but I would not be a party to an attempt to remedy the inconveniences by defeating and evading the law.--( Hear, hear.) I would not consent to that course, because I believed that in doing so we should undermine in Ireland the sanctity of an oath—respect for the laws, and the principles of reli gion and morality which constitute the true strength of a country. But, Sir, I supported the principles of the Bill introduced by my Noble Friend opposite, because I thought that bs a little alteration, it might be made the means of carryng out the law of registration fairly and satisfactorily. Believing this I would not consent to oppose that measure for any purpose of party convenience, nor even for the purpose of avoiding a separation from my friends.—( Hear, i hear.) But I then gave a pledge that I act now here to redeem.—( Cheers.) Although I concurred with the Noble Lord in his desire to establish a tribunal to investi gate the claims of the voters, it was not my object to re. strict the franchise—(Cheers) —on the contrary, I stated that I would be prepared to concur in any measure which would amend the extremely unsettled state of the franchise.--( Hear, bear.) The principle of the recom mendation now offered by my Noble Friend was, if I re member rightly, thrown out by the Hon. Member for Monaghan, Mr. Lucas, and it seems to rest upon the simplest principles of the franchise. It may be true, as my Noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) has stated, that it is a plan unheard of in England, and undreamt of in Scotland. But even if it be so, yet, as I believe it is suited to the ex isting state of society in Ireland, and that it is calculated to correct the great evils which now prevail in that country, 1 am not to be deterred from giving it my support by any consideration of that kind.--( Cheers.) I think it is suited to the circumstances of Ireland.—(Cheers.) I think it is calculated to correct those evils.—( Cheers.) With re spect to the existing franchise, I think it is impossible for any man to look to what is passing before our eyes and deny that it requires to be more clearly defined.—( Hear, hear.) What is the meaning of the words " beneficial interest," as they are understood on the opposite side of the House ? On this side it is contended, and by many able lawyers, that they were intended to include whatever profit might be produced by a man's own labour out of his holding.— On the other hand, it is held by gentlemen opposite that every holding should be of the clear value of 101., with out any consideration of the labour employed upon it. But on the other hand it is contended that "beneficial inte rest" means that he is to be able to underlet his land to a solvent tenant for 101. more than he gives for it. If that definition is to be accepted, I say that the Reform Bill was a delusion practised on the people of Ireland : if that is to be the definition put upon the words " beneficial interest," is it possible to conceive that, in the state of society in that country, and the manner in which land is usually occupied there, such a definition would not restrict and narrow the franchise in a manner inconsistent with the Reform Bill ? Well, Sir, if both those definitions fail, if we would put an end to those scenes with which we are familiar in Election Committees of this House, in which parties are brought forward—a laud-surveyor on the one side swearing that the land was not worth 101., and the occupier swear ing, on the other, that it was worth that sum—both attach ing different meanings to the word, and both justifying thereby, in their own opinions, the oaths they had taken— if, I repeat, we wish to put an end to these abuses, we are driven to look for a new franchise, and in seeking for that new franchise, what principle is so simple in the existing state of Ireland, so likely to prevent disputes and conflict ing swearing, and all the excitement of the present regis tration—what is so likely to answer all these purposes as to regulate the franchise according to the amount at which land is rated, and that be the condition on which the franchise is to be gained? It appears to me that that principle is perfectly just and proper. It remains for consideration at a future stage of these proceedings to see whether the amount which my Noble Friend pro posed to make, namely 51. annual, be a proper amount or not. Upon that point Hon. Members opposite gave a definitive opinion, but I will fairly state to the House, that, as far as my opinion on the question goes, I perfectly concur in the view of my Noble Friend. I con sider it of great importance with respect to Ireland that matters should be so arranged that the franchise in that country may not be improperly narrowed, and though those statements which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub lin repeated so frequently last year as to the comparative number of voters with respect to the population of Eng land and Ireland—though in my opinion they are thoroughly worthless and idle when brought forward for the purpose for which they were used, yet they were of the most mate ial importance when we are to consider how the new franchise is to be established. I feel too strongly attached to the groat principles of popular liberty not to consider it absolutely necessary to fix the franchise in such a manner that the great body of the people of Ireland may feel that those representatives who come to this House in their name really speak the opinions and represent the feelings of the majority of the people.---( Cheers.) Unhappily it is the misfortune of Ireland —it is the misfortune entailed on it by the misgovernment and misdeeds of former times, that the great bulk of landed property in Ireland is in the hands of persons divided by strong opinions and prejudices from the majority of the population. I regard that as an evil of the greatest magnitude in the present state of Ireland; but it is in vain that we have passed an Irish Reform Bill, if, that being the state of things, we now so frame a measure by which She whale political power of that great country will be an:Own into the hands of a small minority, whose power has, for the last few years, been put an end to, and which, if now again re stored, will be an evil still greater than its former exist ence.—( Ministerial cheers.) The interval which bad oc curred, notwithstanding the many imperfections of the system, and its many gross and glaring defects, would make the evil of the restoration of ascendancy perfectly intolerable. Sir, the state of Ireland now is calculated to excite very serious apprehensions, and I, for one, do not regard the scenes which have been passing in that country during the last few months without very great concern and alarm ; but I believe that none of the great parties into which this country is divided are free from great and serious blame for the existence of that danger in Ireland (Hear) I think that great blame, if I may be permitted to say so, is attributable to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who aro in the habit of holding language and supporting measures which must be highly distasteful to the great body of the people of Ireland. I think, en the other hand, that great and serious blame is due to those who for many months have been repeating to the people of Ireland that the in tention of the British House of Commons, in assenting in its several stages to a measure of which the professed ob ject was to amend the tribunal for registering electors— that the real intention of the majority of the British House of Commons, in passing that measure, was to disfranchise the people of Ireland. Great and serious responsibility the h i e h House bud, of was incurred by those who repres ented i n this light to the people Bill,ot' the l the parts majorityo of f w at different times, been propose d b y her Ma jesty's Ministers. Commons o f in Ireland a d o t p h t e i n a g c a t t l b l e e could not o no f t h t e n l o p m t e h e in su k r i e ng th t e h y at vre th ro os l e aa r t e y p e r a e r se d n i t s a e t u io ss n ing aof , had had a great effect in creating in the m i nds of the weigh the effects of the, different clauses of an Act of Parliament , but must judge o f th e peopleh e expected Ireland, a be nd bl e the effects likely to be protgore at majority of whom cou ld not duced from them by the represen tations of those in whom they placed confidence—he could not help thinking that these representations had con tributed mainly to create in the minds of the people of Ireland that feeling of soreness and that sense of injus tice which formed the foundation of the edifice of the repeal agitation ; and he thought that still greater blame was due to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and he was glad that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was present to hear what lie said as to the means w hi c h h e had taken to excite that feeling of dissatisfaction to which h e h a d alluded. He deeply lamented the state of feeling at p resent existing in Ireland, and he blamed different parties as at : c p ' e s r s s u u r a i d e e ' d to th ti a lis t i f creatingb the repeal agitation—if they ished to d epr i ve the Hon, and Learned Gentleman of that lever which he had use d so effectively, they would, in considering this measure, ta k e acre that it should he so flamed as that the prin c i p l e o f otl of that feeling. He w as perfectly sides of the House w i s h ed to crush ascendancy should not be restored.—( Loud cheers.) Ho had already on this the first discussion of the subject spoken at greater length than he had intended when he rose. He would not pledge himself to argue on any of the details of the plan h:s Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland had sketched out. All he meant to say was, that he certainly most entirely concurred in the principle on which that measure was founded; and when the Bill was printed, he should look attentively into the details of the measure, in hopes of finding there such as to carry into effect the views which he had expressed,—( Loud cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL wished, in the irst instance, to call the attention of the House to a statement which had been made by the Noble Lord on that side of the House, and alluded to by the Noble Lord opposite, relating to the registration in the barony of Balruddery, in the county of Dublin. The statement was, that out of 200 registered voters there were no less than 50 the whole of whose pro perty was not rated at more than 101. a-year to the Poor law. Now he wished to inform the House that the Gen. tleman who had registered those voters, the Chair man of Kilmainham, had, up to the time of his elevation to the Bench, been considered as a rigid Conservative. it had even been stated that that gentleman had on one oc casion appeared in public, wearing the Orange badge. He was not aware whether such was the fact, but there could be no doubt as to his political principles ; neither could there be any doubt that that gentleman held extreme opinions as to the value. He considered the test to be applied, was the solvent tenant test, so that these voters had been registered by a gentleman of Conservative prin ciples, and who adopted the highest test of value ; and yet under the Poor-law valuation fifty out of 200 of the voters thus registered, were rated under 101, That showed the House that the Poor-law valuation was not a low rated valuation. He would confess frankly that this Bill of the Noble Lord had given him great satisfaction, and he thought he was entited to say that, if adopted, it would give satisfaction to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) As the other Noble Lord had stated, it would take a strong weapon out of his (Mr. O'Connell's) hands.—( Hear, and cheers.) The Noble Lord had said that he had made a wrcng use of that weapon ; lie would not now enter into a discussion with the Noble Lord on that subject. The Noble Lord was of opinion that last Session the House had intended fairly by Ireland. Now he was of opinion that the House had intended to oppress Ireland. The Noble Lord looked upon the measure of last session as one intended for the good regulation of the franchise. He (Mr. O'Connell) looked upon it as a mea sure having for its object to extinguish the franchises of the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) But there was a way to solve every doubt, an easy way of contradicting him and showing he was wrong. He would propose the present measure as a test. If the House agreed to the Noble Lord's Bill, they would be adopting a measure which would give satisfaction to the people of Ireland, which would do away with every pretence for bringing forward against them the false and foul charge of perjury.—(Cheers.) It would have the advantage of taking away from every body even the temptation to false swearing.---( Loud cheers.) But what if they adopted the measures of the Noble Lord opposite ? Why, that Noble Lord had shrank from defining the franchise—(Cheers)-eehe introduced a Registration Bill, and although he had taken the trouble to construct a most elaborate machine, when he was asked what the =chine was to do, lie would not tell. (Loud cheers.) If he went to any manufacturing town in the North of England, and proposed the erection of some most elaborate piece of machinery, the first question which would be proposed to him would be, What do you propose your machinery to do ?—(Loud cheering.) If he said, " I am undecided what sort of article it shall be, but lay out your capital on the machine," ho (Mr. O'Connell) thought the Noble Lord would be as much laughed at in Yorkshire as he was disrelished in Ireland. —( Hear, bear.) But then the excuse was, it would take up too much time of the House—that the Hun. Lord had not leisure to define the franchise. But it must bo defined somehow. Would they send it to the Quarter-sessions, and have an appeal every year to the Judges ?—to Judges who differed on the subject? When he had addressed the House before he had stated that seven Judges were in favour of the question of the solvent tenant test, but that five were the other way ; but there had been a change since. The present Chief Baron had joined the five, so that take it as strongly as they would there were six to six. —( Hear hear, hear.) Mr. Justice Ball had not had the point brought before him, but if he was of the same opinion as he was when at the Bar, then the proportion would be exactly altered ; there would be seven in his (Mr. O'Connell's) way, and five the contrary. Was this a situation in which the people of Ireland should be placed ?--( Cheers.) Should any impute to the present Chief Baron political motives? He (Mr. O'Connell) thought this of him—he was not much employed as an ad vocate, but he (Mr. O'Connell) thought that he made a most excellent Judge. They had a similar instance in this country ; the present Lord Chancellor was not a first-rate advocate, but he (Mr. O'Connell) believed it was admitted that be was a first-rate Judge. The powers requisite for an advocate and for a Judge were different things. He thought the Chief Baron of Ireland had delivered a most satisfactory judgment in turning round. But the Noble Lord's (Morpeth's) Bill would put an end to all this, and an end to all discussion as to the politics of Judges.—(Hear, hear.) Was it not said that they came into that House with bad politics to make them selves Judges ? While this system lasted it must be so— ( Hear, hear, hear)—the fairest men would be liable to ca lumny ; and calumny against the Bench, when not de served, when it was calumny, was certainly a matter not to be encouraged by any statesman; but this would con tinue if they followed the Noble Lord's (Lord Stanley's) plan, which refused to tell what the franchise was-- ( Hear.) The Chief Baron decided one way, and Mr. Howley, the Chairman of Tipperary, decided another way. Here were two men, as far as they could be influenced by it, of the same politics, who differed on the subject. Was this a situation to leave the franchise in ? Suppose Judge Crampton went the Circuit he would construe it strictly ; if the Chief Baron went he would construe it liberally. All this would be avoided by adopting the Bill of the Govern ment.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord talked of the si. tuation of Ireland. It is right that he should do so. I may be sneered at by some; but I know more of the situation of Ireland, and I avow that there is among the people of Ireland a strong, an overwhelming, a rooted conviction that they cannot obtain justice in this House. This is my opinion. Is it then, more prudent for you—for now you have your choice—to show a disposition to do justice, or to act with oppression ?—( Hear, hear.) The House has now the opportunity of showing its feeling towards Ire laud. And I ask you is it not wise to do us justice? I don't caro what prejudice or bigotry may think, and I believe it is from some notion that it is good for the Protestant Church that you act oppres sively towards us, though you thereby pay but a bad compliment to the Protestant Church when you make it the ally of injustice and oppression.—( Cheers.) But taking the situation of Ireland, this feeling is increas ing. And are you at liberty to forget that you may want the right arm of the country? You may want it sooner than you suppose. France is now determined not to go to war at present, but has she made her mind up not to go to war when she is prepared ? Are you sure she is not now preparing to go to war ? Is not the popular sentiment set at nought by erecting forts round Paris, and are not those who have been thought most anxious for liberty, straining every nerve to make Paris formidable to the world ? Is not your peace an armed peace, as was said on the first evening of the Session ? Is not Germany, is not every State in Europe, arming ? And are you going at such time to disarm England, by shaking off Ireland ? Is this wise or prudent ? The Noble Lord may display his talent, he may display his prejudice—l won't call it his hatred, or his virulence—to wards us, but let him remember that at no time is it wise or honest to make a country disaffected. At the present time it is totally unsafe to make Ireland disaffected. You will want Ireland, I know not how soon, and no doubt you may have her at the slight purchase of justice— ( Hear, hear)—and no doubt, also, you may lose her by doing her injustice. In one of those despatches of the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston), which should bo made the study of this House, the Noble Lord writes to Me hemet Ali, " Your Highness must know that nothing is so difficult as to retain possession of a country, the people of which are disaffected." What is true of Syria, is equally true of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It is true. I therefore call upon the House —you will not divide to-night, you will have time to think—l call upon those of large fortunes, of great possessions, who livo in ease and luxury—l call upon the wealthy portion of the community to well bethink themselves that for the secure enjoyment of all these luxuries, they may want the support of Ireland in the day of battle. They cannot have a braver or a stronger—l call upon them to think of these things, and to make their choice between the curse of Ire land and the Noble Lord's (Lord Stanley's) Bill on the one side, and the blessing of Ireland and the Bill of the Noble Secretary (Lord Morpeth) on the other.--( Cheers. ) Mr. SHAW was not surprised that the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin had said he was satisfied with the provisions of the Bill of the Noble Lord ; for his own part he ( Mr. Shaw wondered) that the Noble Lord had named any sum at all • he might as well have said universal suffrage, for a 51. franchise to prevail over all Ireland was something similar to universal suffrage. It was monstrous to give counties as small a franchise as towns. Mr. HUME begged to ask, notwithstanding the Hon. Member who had just sat down had characterized a 51. franchise in Ireland as monstrous, whether it was mon strous to give a fair franchise to Ireland ? He thought the pro Position of the Noble Lord on the Treasury benches was a most excellent one, and it would do more to put an end to agitation in Ireland, and take from the Hon. Member for Dublin the great power he wielded, in consequence of the injustice that had been done to Ire land, than any measure that had been introduced. He hoped the House of Commons would show that there were gentlemen in that House, who were determined to do justice to Ireland. Sir R. BATE SON observed that it had been stated that there was hardly a parish in Ireland that bad not pe titioned against the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire. He denied that, and defied the Hon. Member who had made the assertion to point out a single petition that had emanated from the province of Ulster. That province contained as much respectability and property as any other three provinces in Ireland. The thanks of the province of Ulster had been voted to the Noble Lord for bringing in the Bill for which he had re ceived so much scurrility and abuse. Mr.BELLEW observed that every parish in his county had petitioned against the Bill of the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire. He (Mr. Bellew) of fered his thanks to the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ire land. for the Bill he had that night moved for leave to in troduce. as he believed it would be productive of great good in Ireland. Nothing but a definition of the franchise would effect the object they had in view, which was to tranquillize the minds of the people of Ireland. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire was, or pretended to be, sadly afraid of any extension of the suf frage to the people of Ireland ; but had he ever expressed the slightest horror at the extermination of the tenantry, which hml taken place since 1832, and for political of fences, as they were called ? Fur the sake of Ireland and justice, he trusted that a fair consideration would be afforded to the Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ireland, without regard to any party triumph. If that wero not done, it would create in the minds of the people of Ireland, even in the minds of those who were in favour of the union of the twocountries, an estrangement a species of insular feeling, because they would be con vinced that they had nothing more to hope for from that House—their feeling in favour of the union would bo swept away by despair. He trusted the conduct of the House would still allow them to hope. Mr. .1. O'CONNELL said, with respect to what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet with regard to the Ulster Meeting, he must remind the House that its re ' spectability depended entirely upon the word of the Hon. Baronet, for, with the exception of his own re spectable name, all the others that were present were shrouded in entire obscurity, and that meeting could not in any way be put in comparison with the meeting lately held in Dublin, which was attended by Noblemen and Gen tlemen from all parts of Ireland, and that for the express purpose of opposing the Bill of the Noble Lord op pos.te.---(Hear, hear.) He was extremely delighted at the principles of the Bill introduced by the Noble Secretary for Ireland, and he sincerely trusted that its details would be worked out in such a manner as to give satisfaction to the people of Ireland. The lion. Gentle men opposite, however, must not suppose that it gave un mixed satisfaction to Hon. Gentlemen on that (the Minis terial) side of the House, for they did net like that the right of the franchise should at all depend upon the question of tenure. The Noble Lord opposite had taunted the Noble Secretary for Ireland that he had shrunk from going the full length expected from him, but the Noble Lord also had shrunk from what was expected of him; he had not dared to make or introduce into his Bill any definition of the franchise. He would implore of the Noble Lord, if his words had any effect, to avail himself of the golden bridge now ()tiered him in the Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ireland—he would implore him to give up his own Bill and support that of the Noble Lord ; for any step that was made in his Bill seas adding to the disgust of the people of Ireland, and greatly increasing the numbers of repeaters. If, as the Noble Lord said, he was pledged to the death against repeal, let him take the best means in his power to put that question down—let him take up the Bill of:the Noble Lordithe Secretary for Ireland—let him make it perfect according to its spirit, and show the p'eople of Ireland that all justice was not to be denied them. He did not expect that the Noble Lord would follow his advice, for there was a short-sightedness about the policy of the Honourable Gentlemen apposite, that he trusted would lead to their destruction. He trusted, however —nay, he expected, that the Hon. Gentlemen on that (the Ministe rial) side of the House would give their zealous and undi vided support to the Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ire land ; for the people of that country did not understand why their rights should be given away by Parliamentary courtesy. They were deeply disgusted by every step that was made by the Bill of the Noble Lord. Mr. Sergeant JACK SON did not rise for the purpose of offering any opposition to the intro duction of the Bill of the Noble Secretary for Ireland—nay, inde e d, h e rat h er rejoiced at it ; but he had fully hoped that the time had come when there would have been an end to the attacks upon the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, as the enemy of Ireland ; because now there was acknowledged abuse in the registration of Ireland, and acknowledged by all parties. He rejoiced to see that the Noble Lord intended to put an end to the certificate system— the fruitful source of fraud.—(Hear.) Ho rejoiced to see they were to have an annual registry, whereby the register would be purged of the names of Cead men, re movals, &c. ; and he rejoiced also that to a certain extent the Noble Lord was about to give a double appeal. Ile hailed the Bill as being introduced with a sincere desire to remedy a great evil, lie could not accord the same feel ings to those which had formerly been introduced on the same subject. He could not, however, agree in all that had fallen from the Noble Lord, but he was glad that he had refrained from attempting to make that the law of the land which had been declared not to be the law by the Judges of Ireland. He highly disapproved of the hi. franchise ; it would amount to nothing more than another revolution such as they had had in 1832. However, all these points would be better discussed at a future stage of the Bill. With respect to the attack which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had made on a most respect able member of the bar in Ireland, Mr. Blacket, he pro tested that he had never heard even a rumour that he be longed to any Orange society, but he would pledge him self that that gentleman had never gone his circuit with any Orange badge upon his person. Probably the Hon. and Learned Member had confounded this with the case of Colonel Blacket, who had been dismissed from the Commission of the Peace because his lady had been ac cused of wearing a dress of a certain colour; but, at all events, the Hon. and Learned Member was the last person iu the world to camplain of any persons wearing badges, when he even appeared in that House with one upon his coat. He was rejoiced to find that the Noble Lord opposite had introduced his Bill; and he did not regret to find that it had been submitted to the House, conjointly with the Bill of the Noble Lord near him. He trusted that, between them, Ireland would receive a measure which would put an end to the abuses which, it was admitted upon all hands, now existed in the registration system in that country. Mr. O'CONNELL wished to say one word of explana tion in reference to a remark of the Learned Gentleman. He (Mr. O'Connell) did not mean to mention it by way of a disparagement to Mr. Blacket, that he had worn an Orange badge. Ho bad merely referred to the rumour on that subject, by way of illustration. It was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself who seemed to consider the fact of wearing an Orange badge as injurious to Mr. Blacket's character. Mr. Sergeant JACK SON said that he certainly thought it wrong of any one to wear a badge which gave offence to the people among whom he lived.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. VIL LIERS STUART was rejoiced at the in troduction of the Bill of the Noble Lord, as he thought it was :calculated to place the system of registration in Ireland on a better footing. He admitted the incon veniences of the existing system, which he considered op posed to the best interests of the country. But in at tempting to amend it they should not introduce a new evil. If they were to have really a representative system, they should give the party seeking to be registered every possible facility for establishing his right, or else the claimants would not defend it. He thought that the measure of the Noble Lord near him would put an end to the violent agitation which now prevailed in Ireland; while he was persuaded that an attempt to persevere in the measure of the Noble Lord opposite would only induce the people of that country to struggle to have their Par iament again in Dublin-4 Hear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS wished to caution the Noble Lord opposite not to conclude hastily against the fa'rness of the valuation adopted by his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland. The valuation under the Poor-law was, in every case, exceedingly low. The complaints of the Noble Lord might have been justified if his Noble Friend bad adopted the valuation of the Ordnance, which, on the other band, was almost invariably above the rent. It was certainly so in the county with which he (Lord Clements) was connected. Those persons, there fore, who might seem by the one system to have perjured themselves, might by the other have a sufficient interest in their farms. He would also tell the Noble Lord, be did not know whether it was his fault or that of his unpopu larity in Ireland, but it was a fact that a Bill emanating from him, no matter what were its provisions, was looked upon with distrust in that country.—( Laughter from the Opposition benches.) Hon. Gentleman opposite might laugh, but he assured them that he expressed the general feeling in Ireland. Mrr WARD thought Le bad the pleasure of hearing the Noble Lord ( Stanley) say he left his Bill with con fidence to the good sen►e of those within and without the House, and he added that there was a strong feeling in Ireland in favour of it. Now it appeared to him that the Noble Lord's Bill was by no means an honest one, for it did not meddle with the franchise, it did not attempt to grapple with that difficulty, from which all these other difficulties had arisen. It appeared to him that sooner or later the question must be settled in the way proposed by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland; anal it ap peared to him, with every respect to the Noble Lord op posite, that his remedy was worse than the disease. Mr. LITTON could assert, from a very general know ledge of Ireland, that the Bill of the Noble Lord near him had been received by all the respectable and influen tial classes in Ireland as a useful Bill, and one which was likely to meet the demoralizing system which bad so long existed from the mode of registration in Ireland. Ile believed, however, that the lower classes looked with re. gret at the passing of the measure. Those who thought that intelligence and property ought to be represented— those who thought that agitation and mob popularity should be put down, would support the Bill of the Noble Lord near him. It appeared to him that the Bill of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, was about to grant them nothing short of universal suffrage. Ile confessed that he would rather have universal suffrage than that Bill, be cause it conferred the franchise upon every pauper in the country.—( Hear, hear.) He repeated that ho would pre fer universal suffrage, for then they would have things called by their right names. He was satisfied that it would completely swallow the independent constituency of Ireland. The O'CONNOR DON said that as far as his per sonal observation went, all classes in Ireland, both respect able and humble were opposed to the Bill of the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire,; and he hailed with great pleasure the introduction of such a measure as that which had just been announced by the Noble Lord near him. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. RAILWAYS. Mr. LABOUCHE RE said, although the Bill which he intended to ask of the House permission to introduce related to a subject of equal difficulty and importance, he should not feel it incumbent on him to occupy the atten tion of the House at any length on the present occasion. The object of the Bill which he sought leave to bring in was to provide increased security for the public. 'rho House would agree with him, from the returns that had been laid on the table, it was incumbent ou the Govern ment to consider whether by any interference on their part they could by any means alleviate the recurrence of those appalling accidents which had created so much alarm in the public mind, and if it appeared to the Government that inter ference on their part would have a tendency to effect that ob ject, he thought they were fully justified in bringing forward a measure on the subject. These accidents naturally be came the subject of very minute investigation by persons connected with the Government Railway departmendte, and the measure he now proposed to introduce was foun oa d was the recommendation of that department. The Report detail now in the hands of Hon. Members, and it wouldunds upon much more fully and ably than he could the which his measure was lxesed. the House the main provisions of the 13111, tate increase the safety ob serve that its sole object was directed toln , was would to of railroad travelling. Undoubtedly therer i w li o n u , l .a d n i d io g b w o ro s great risk ment they might be increasing that by injudicious interference on the v i i ? l a t ( o i f ie th a e r)— Go i v t e w rn a - s mainlyfr m the upon .Directors them desirable that that responsibilityey s o h . j a o f not h m must t k t e h r e a e s e t e eiy• province, do that which the Government —that they should not, by minute he in G te o r v f e er r e n n in c e e n lv e it o h ul t d he d i o r particular very inadequately, and e:hich those_ who wcret the guardians of the safety of the public must know much better how to do. But after commumicating with the Directors, and finding that there were some points on which the Govern ' mcnt could interfere with advantage, he felt that he would not be doing his duty if he did not ask the House for leave to bring in a Bill on the subject. There was a great deal of exaggeration with regard to the number of accidents, for the tact was that there was no conve)anee so safe in proportion to the number of passengers. It was not sur prising, however, consith2ring the dreadful nature of these accidents, that they should produce a great shock upon the public mind, and it watt desirable that the public should be satisfied that the Government was using its best exertions EVENING EDITIONo S li ..... to diminish as far as possible the probability of ac 3-:::77.aee krssi dents on railways.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He a.X.17::•1,er.'"„-e—t------ already said that the number of accidents in compar 43:fi. , - . ; 7 - , ' r with the numbers travelling was very small. 1t4,4 1 looking at the Report of the Directors as to the catiikeyt,, : - these accidents, it was evident that they might be verle:',\‘' much diminished by some simp c-: /A " 4 le regulations, and thereliy e ;leess e render t rave lli ng b y railway still more secure. The diffi- e,r . at c rits'el - culty on th e su bj ect, i n hi s view, was, that, although he acknowledged the interference of the Government Board should be restricted within very narrow limits—although ho acknowledged that that interference should be exercised with the greatest possible caution, yet he had found, after due consideration, that it would be necessary to ask Parlia ment, or the department with which he had the honour to be connected, for powers of a very general nature, and to take upon himself the responsibility of applying that power with proper caution. Honourable Gentlemen might be alarmed at seeing in the Bill very large powers, but he could not at that time explain his reason so well as by reading sin extract from a Report which he held in his hand :—" With regard to the nature and ex tent of these powers, the proper distinction appears to us to be that the Government should not attempt to interfere in questions of an experiment a l nature, which arc still sub jects of discussion, and admit of a fair difference of opi nion among practical men; nor should it attempt to regu late matters of detail, so as to take tho management of railways out of the hands of the parties immediately re sponsible, namely, the directors end their officers." An other point to which the Report referred was of some im portance :—" But with regard to other points, such as the propriety of introducing upon every railway such arrange menis respecting time tables and signals as experience has shown to be necessary for preventing collision; of estab lishing a proper and uniform code of regulations for en. gine drivers, guards, and other servants placed in a re sponsible situation ; and for maintaining strict discipline ; and generally, of introducing upon all railways whatever has been adopted and proved to be conducive to safety, by the practice of those which are considered to be the best conducted, no difference of opinion can exist ; and if the principle of Government supervision be admitted at all, it cannot find a more legitimate field for its exercise." Now the trains were worked altogether by time tables; but it was found upon examination that that obvious protection was neglected on several railways-4 Hear, hear)—and he did think that a power to make these tables might be safely entrusted to the Government Board. Upon inquiry, it had been found that the principle had been adopted an all great lines of railway. He would mention another provision of the Bill. On almost all lines of rail way a particular signal denoted danger, namely, a red light; but some lines substituted another signal. An en gineer, therefore, going from one line to another got confused, and was likely to make a fatal mistake. He thought these were instances in which the Government Board might safely be trusted with the enforcement of general regulations. In asking the House to give him those extensive powers, he was quite ready to adknow ledge that they ought to be exercised with the greatest caution, and with as little interference as possible with the regulations of the railways. But some central authority to make general regulations, and to exercise a general superintendence, was essential. (Hear, hear, hear.) Another feature in the Bill was, that all the engine-drivers should be licensed, and it did seem to him rather anoma lous that while they required a man driving a vehicle in the streets to be licensed, that the engine-driver of a rail way, whose want of sobriety or misconduct might put in danger the lives of a great many persons, were not re quired to have one. He proposed, therefore, that the li censing system should be established, and that no engine driver should be employed without a regular license ; that a registry should be kept, and that for any misconduct he should be deprived of his license. It appeared to him that that would be un important check to the employment of unfit persons, and diminish the number of accidents. If they looked at the return in the Report of the causes of accidents, they would find them frequently originating in the gross misconduct of the driver; nay, that a man turned off one line for misconduct, had been taken upon another, and employed, when his misconduct led to the most appalling results. There were other provisions in the Bill of less importance. As he bad said before, there were various suggestions in the papers laid on the table, which he imagined the Government might ad vantageously adopt ; but when he recollected that in the last Session the House thought it injudicious that the Government should have too extensive powers, which might be used for inquisitorial purposes, he thought it judicious to confine tire measure to the points to which he had already referred. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of railways. Colonel SIBTHORP did not rise to oppose the intro duction of the Bill. It was well known that he was a great opposer of railroads from their earliest commence ment. He had always looked upon them as measures of public fraud and private robbery —as schemes based upon no principle of honesty, or feeling, or huma nity—as schemes of idle speculation and gambling in the extreme. The returns were altogether incom plete, and he thought that they ought to have an official return of all the accidents on railways. The Hon. Gentleman referred to the great number of accidents that were so frequently occurring on railroads, and mentioned that on one line of railway four men had been lately very much injured; and on that, as upon all such occasions, the Directors of the line contented them selves with merely expressing their regret that such acci dents had occurred, but there was nothing said about pre venting the recurrence of them. ~~~;.~; 4 Mr. EWA RT said that his Right Hon. Friend, the Pre sident of the Board of Trade, had drawn a judicious dis tinction in introducing that Bill, by making the principle of it a principle of centralization regarding railways, and not one of interference. If they would centralize all the information possible, and consolidate it in one code, and do so without interference, they would leave to the public all the advantages and accommodations derivable from rail ways. It was admitted, he knew not whether the Hon. and Gallant Colonel admitted it, but if he ever read so orthodox a work as the Quarterly Review, he would see it there most undeniably proved, that the number of acci dents on railroads was infinitely smaller than that which it was known took place on stage coaches. He ( Mr. Ewart) would now say what had been some time ago observed by the Honourable and Gallant Colonel. that facts were stubborn things. He (Mr. Ewart) was for giving such powers as would render the acts of the Railway Commissioners not abortive of, but productive of, some good effect. His Right Hon. Friend had alluded to the system of licenses. He (Mr. Ewart) hoped that it would be found to succeed, but ho had some doubt as to whether the system of licensing was necessary. They all knew that the system of stage-coaches was admirably conducted—to be sure, the number of acci dents that occurred on them was more numerous than that which took place on railways, but yet they were admirably conducted, and that without licences. He, then, had his doubts as to whether licences were so indispensably neces sary. There was another recommendation of the Com missioners, respecting the information that should be given in cases of serious accident or injury being sustained by persons. Now there were occasions where information was desirable to the public in cases of accident, even where they were not attended with serious injury. He also acquiesced, though he confessed he had something to do with railroads, in the suggestion that the Commis sioners should get notice before a railway was opened, so that it might be teen that no danger was likely to be ircurred on these new lines by the public. Those were powers demanded by the public, and to which no reasonable railway company could refuse to assent. It was also required that acts of inter ference be submitted to Parliament before being adopted. Without that he thought that there might be some danger s o i f o t n o c o ri g . e aa wo e u x l t d en v s e io n n of ture t t h oe call powers th of the Commis eetteotionofte House to the fact that those railways are the best which are the longest established. On the Liverpool and Man. chester Railway an accident seldom or never occurred, and on the Liverpool and Birmingham Railway accidents oc curred just as seldom. On the Grand Junction Railway near half a million of persons were conveyed within the last year, and there was scarcely arty accident. He was convinced that in all public undertakings emanating from private individuals, success was owing to a free compotia tion being allowed, to the absence of interference, and of intermeddling on the p ar t o f t h e Government. He was glad that the measure proposed to be introduced was sim ply one of regulation, and not of interference. Lord STANLEY said that, indeed, he thought from the manner of his Hon. Friend, in introducing that Bill that he feared it would be opposed by Hen. Gentlemen on that side of the House, for he directed the whole of his arguments to lion. Gentlemen on his side of the House. lie ( Lord Stanley) hoped that it would be some consolation to his Hon. and Gallant Friend behind him (C o l one l Sib thorp ) i n pro portion as there was more traffic on ra il roa d s , an d as they ipc useful, almost i n th e same p ro portion wasae alllla 4 by proper precauti o ns b e i n g adopted, would be brought . me more angerihv ay t s o life and property dimi n ish e d. He bad no doubt , two which had to a state of equal security with l those b be o e t n in m th e e nti l o n n e e a d ntm b io ythe it r ebutcontrol too frequentlyu ye r rail roads was of G great entem im portancethat the Governmentio their s hould e vigilant infancy, Railroads e unsafe that they should b e so . opened at a time when it was there • • that on one railroad was a positive He had been told o , m issioners that it was not fit to be report of the rc i w s d s the principle thatrailroads must be zlipornaeftaieraiamviogniolapnotyc,oanntdrotlhebreeifnugre thereexe en tirely concurred opened. and notwithstanding they had opened it. He every pis by the public for their protection. As he was on his legs he would put a question to his Right Ilon. Friend more or the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of directions that are note given for the carrying of letters by railway. The Noble Lord then proceeded to state that on a late occasion, when travelling by the Southampton Railroad in the mail tram, he had been detained at one of the stations an hour and a quarter while waiting for the other mail trains from various directions to come up, and adverted at some length on the great inconvenience and danger to which passengers were thus subjected, and con cluded by asking what were the instructions given by the General Post-office, relative to the carriage of the mails by railways, and hoped that no regulations were given such as would cause the detention of the mail train an hour and three quarters. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid. that any directions that were given upon the subject to the Noble Lord referred, were general, and rested with the Direewrs of the Railroad. The mail-trains were engaged by Government, and they paid a large aura for the conveyance of the inaik by them, and it was for the purpose of bringing the mail and not of carrying passen gers that they were engaged. Passengers, thon, who travel by these trains should be prepared for whatever inconve niences they m i g ht be exposed to, and with reg ar d to t h e danger that had been spoken of, there svis no ground of apprehension on that score as there were no trains on the line immediately before or after the mail-train. Lord . STANLEY said that the Right Hon. Gentle. men must reeollect that. after having w'''aited an hour and e, o i f l l ls ' e w ati ' n i r t ire l e m a u t i t bmy t , l e t t e ,h e m i np a ca i o l sns f ev o r which they t dv, h ,ae r nr e ge e r q t.aar detained.st,erhs e , t t l t i A e o y ut g s set thh t t n e g n j e e r ' s ' edeuraiagnd ~~:.; i Y_ENING EDITION. THE SUN - . LONDON, I7RIDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1841. Y_ ~