The Sun. — London, England, 1828-06-25 00:00:00

2111 abni ; Tran i ' RI tw ; rthiU arifor :on; E by CJ om the Irgyiv; ticirn n froll Bristol, oil stcy' wise 4 he di ti to Y' w hisk 11" of I° , )od ' re' of h': of o!' court in biA .tain re' priiqe d ; pf boag ie .Yed urns Suringl tstais& • it kmotil ks fr° l ! t 3overo' Ore' o w the e cret B r f issios ° ;aurt ," )01 111 " 11 !' pvblol , nof l- 111) r r lovece II The SPEAKER observed, that the Noble Lord ad put a most argumentative question to the Right 'lnn. Secretary, and he apprehended that it was I. try much out of order. rroper to give Orders' that the Ambassador should r) ritv suspend his functions. But it appeared that he had convoked the ancient Cortes of Portugal, in litter defiance of the Charter—that in the Gazettes I,lll)fished under his authority he had been stiled by the title of Majesty, instead of that of Prince Re "nt ; the title of Majesty only belonging to the King, his brother, or to his niece, in whose favour he had resigned the Sovereignty. Looking at all t hese things, it was impossible, therefore, not to that the crime of rebellion was complete, and t hat the present Ruler of Portugal Could be regarded no other light than as an usurper.—(Hear, hear.) --- ,Under these circumstances, he would ask if the ,7 0 Yernment had given any directions to the Am uessador of this country to quit the kingdom of Portugal ? There was another circumstance k'hieh he felt bound to allude to, as very incon sistent with the decided conduct which the Go !'l'otnent of this country was called upon to adopt i n such an e mergency. The letters which were addressed by a Noble Lord holding a high situa ;l(''n under the Government, have been declared to i e intended, not to destroy, but to promote the ob it'ets of that Government in support of the Consti tutional system in Portugal. Unfortunately, how erer, the intention of these letters has been very ill li ,nderstood, and the impressions which have got 4 uroad respecting them seem to produce a very gene ral belief, that although the Government of this c ountry is not lisposed to interfere openly in behalf of the d et igns of Don Miguel, yet, that it would not ue at all displeased to see the absolute authority nich he covets reposed at once in his hands. The N oble Lord concluded by asking the Right Hon. G entleman two questions—first, whether any direc tions had been given to the British Ambassador t 0 suspend his functions at the scat of Government 1n Portugal and next, whether the Right Hon. G entleman was prepared to say, when, or under 'hat circumstances, the Ambassador had received in structions to prepare to quit the country ? To t he last question the Right Hon. Gentleman was not strictly bound to give a direct reply ; and if it produce any inconvenience he would not Press it ; but, to the first, he hcped to be favoured l 'lth an answer. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in explanation, saict, that he intended to put the question yesterday going into the Committee of Supply, when ' it Would have been perfectly regular, and he had fi li 'ferred it until to-day, at the request of the Right 4t ° ll - Gentleman himself. Mr. Secretary PEEL confirmed the statement of t " Noble Lord, and admitted that he had, on ac c'tlnt of the extreme importance of the subject, re :il'lested the postponement of the question until that 4 With respect now to the question of the Noble Lar y o, he begged to say that he had already taken an Opportunity of stating to the House, that his Ma- Jeßty' s Government so entirely disapproved of the i%c"Title c t of the individual who at present ruled over c qtugal that they had ordered the diplomatic func- A l e r) d ils of the Ambassador to be immediately suspen • That Ambassador, it was almost unnecessary t h ? 'ay, bad received instructions for the guidance of 13 conduct,• under certain contingencies, but he was r ?telbe Noble Lord would at once see the manifest '''Ndventage under which his Majesty's Government ,1 4 1 d be placed if they either disclosed the nature of '°se contingencies, or the instructions which were fi nned r to depend upon them. lie had not the ; I giltest doubt, however, that when the time came ;i r making these instructions public, and when the b 'use was in possession of the course of policy adopted by Government, the Noble Lord wouldgi ye it his ap- F'ebation. It could not be doubted that there was a ma disposition, if not to subvert by open force the 411 thotitj , of the King of Portugal, at least to under tllltle it, for the purpose of destruction, by a policy no t the less dangerous because it may not be openly ?I'elyed. The British Minister was accredited to 15 Regent of Portugal as the representative of its o ?l'ereign, but not to Don Miguel ruling with the t i i c 3 lute authority of a Sovereign. With respect to eorrespondehce to which the Noble Lord al -"(-1, he had not the slightest hesitation in saying. i i at if .any inference was drawn from the nature of at correspondence that the Government was se :1;"ly favourable to the designs of the present Ruler 1 1' Portugal, nothing could be more utterly and en tiel3' unfounded. He begged it to be understood b b 4 t the - correspondence, of whatever nature it might e, was th e ac t o f a n individual, and not of the Ge- W i tpment, and that it in no way changed the opinions 'ich the Government entertained upon the subject. Mir. HoBHOUSE beggc,4 to know whether the °vernment of this country had adopted any A.igures for the preservation of British property, in event of any reverses being suffered by the Con ,tutional.forces ? He 'understood that British Mer ti'l'ilts h a d a g r e at deal of property in Oporto, and Right lion. Gentleman would see, that in the dent of any reverses being suffered, then the most t 4 Etdful consequences must ensue, if they were left b Protected. ei Mr. Secretary :PEEL replied, that under any N hmstanees of civil contests, the British Govern ! i tI N. would never disregard what was due to the t rests of its sultjects. SHIPPING TRADE. Sir JAMES GRAHAM, on the part of his Hon. h t end, the M e mber for Hull, presented a petition o ,` l tii the Ship-owners of that town, complaining of t depressed , state of th e s hipping interests. The b ' v'litioners stated the utter impossibility of their en tllang into any competition with foreigners, while r ty continued' to labour under their present dared- At. Besides the heavy burthen of taxation, which o 'her were compelled to hear in common with the o t o `ler branches of the community, there were some rt'uli ar b urt h ems i m p ose d upon the shipping tr a d e . an first place, they were not allowed to navigate hips built in foreign ports, although such yes -1,11 could be purchased at half-price. In the next I ) , lt ee; they were compelled to take a certain num a-11‘ of apprentices to navigateiheir vessels, and at gti l same time they were prohibited from repairing vessels in a foreign port, beyond the extent of tt 'aty shillings in every ton, although those repairs tild he done at a rate so far below what is charged ngland. After enumerating various other tZta.nces and depressions to which the shipping t t - ult was 'subjected, the petitioners w?nt on to con tll4, that through the operation of these causes, the o - 4 4 e'rnust.be ruined, and the means on which the 1~ superiority of this country was founde d, '~ l ilY destroyed. The petitioners alleged three 'IS for the evils under which they were now th ff ering. The first was, the alteration made in eommercial policy of this country by the ',Ant H on . Gentlem an o pposite (Mr. Huskis tP when he negotiated th e Treaties of Recipro ttLin the year 1823. The second cause of dis- Wi' was to be fatted in the changes made in the . 4 1 , 11 iples of the Navigation Laws; and the third l e from the alteration made in the value of money 1 ,t11 ,,,at Bill of 'the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.s, !,) which he - introduced in the year 1819. Ile J. Graham) was not prepared to enter into any 'll t4 ents upon the reason's which the Ship-owners tit i hN for the depression of their trade, but he might that while he feared the carrying trade could not .I,l)reserved to this country, the fatal effects of the gil 'l ge in the value of money were pointed out over It% li es.again tothe Right Hon. Gentleman, both tal i ,: time he brought in the Bill, and during the \li ft : l N/it discussions. The Hon. Gentleman, the ?b,„4.."t,ier for Dover (Mr. P. Thomson), had taken th' twelve products the other evening, and pointed I rid difference which the prices exhibited now ilo n — the time when the Bill began to operate. The % out a tember had made this reduction amount to H aar 10 per cent.; and it was not a little extraor ingiL,that the Hon. Members for Dorset and Cal (Mr. Bankes and Mr. Barin g ), who were lo t. ' t s of the Committee sitting upon the Right '6 l t l r ent4ertian's - Bill, admitted:that they hatl:fol e ne eiteratiOn in the value of property to be about 30 per•eent., in consequence of the adoption of the principle of .that Bill. This alteration had been frequently stated in the hearing of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he had neither attempted to deny nor disprove it—( 1 rear.)—This e eil, produced by the alteration in the value of money, was not confined to the shipping trade, but pervaded every other branch of trade to the same ex tent. Upon that question, however, he was not now disposed to enter, and the more so as another opportunity would be afforded him upon the third reading of the Bill for putting an end to the issue of small notes. The prayer of the petition was one which he feared could not be complied with at that period of the . Session, for they desired a Committee to inquire into the state of the shipping trade; but while he admitted that the petitioners could not claim such an inquiry at present, he enter tained a hope that the two Right Hon. Gentlemen at the head of the Board of Trade would, from the attention they hael promised to devote to the sub• ject, devise some method of relieving the petitioners from the destruction with which they were threatened. Sir J. YORKE complained of the course the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) pursued in present ing this petition ; for instead of confining himself to the objects of that petition, he had favoured the House with a dissertation upon his favourite sub ject, the state of the currency. The petition seemed to be chiefly directed against the measures of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had lately been at the head of the Board of Trade (Mr. Huskisson), and who, after filling that office and others, had at length become nothing at all, pretty much by his own folly; and as the Right Hon. Gentleman happened to be present, he would take leave to tell him so.— (A laugh.) As to the petitioners, they had brought all the evils they complained of upon themselves; they had gone on building, and charging freights to such an extent, and at such an extravagant price as ns nation ever charged before; and it was not, there fore, extraordinary that foreigners should have stepped in to take advantage of their folly. Sir J. GRAHAM, in explanation, denied that he had introduced the subject of the Currency. It formed one of the subjects introduced by the Pe titioners themselves. Mr. WARBURTON attributed the evils under which the Ship-owners laboured from the low rate of freights, to be mainly owing to the over impor tations of the year 1825. So much had been im ported in that year, in timber for instance, that the trade could even now purchase •in this country cheaper than in the country where it was grown. This decrease in the demand, by a necessary conse quence, caused a decrease in the amount of freight. It was rather inconsistent in the Ship-owners to complain that the Ship-builders had no longer any encouragement to increase the number of ships. If the freights were so low, Ise thought they ought rather to rejoice that the number of ships would not be increased so as to make the freights still lower. It was proved, however, from the Sound List, that British ships in employment were increasing and foreigners decreasing. This was one of the conse quences of the amount of British capital, which enable the English Ship-owner to remain longer in the market; and although neither of the parties were gaining any thing, the English capitalist was sure in the long run to get the better of his adversary. After some observations upon the extent to which ship-building had been carried in Canada, which he considered one of the reasons of the depression of the trade, the Hon. Member concluded by observing, that although taxation did remain fixed while prices were continually varying, yet the Ship-owners suffered less from taxation than any other class of the community. Col. TRENCH claimed the attention of the House to a matter relating to the interests of the Ship-owners, to which he was requested to call the notice of Parliament. The appeal which he had to make was from the Ship-owners of Scarborough, who complained of a misrepresentation made by the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Huskisson), on the Bth of May, 1827. In the discussion which then took place, the Right Hon. Gentleman, refer ring to a petition from Scarborough, had quoted a passage, which contained a statement of the in crease of Baltic ships entering British Ports. He would not enter into a detail of other statements contained in the petition on which the Pight Hon. Gentleman, with an apparent sneer, commented.— What he was anxious to impress upon the House was, that that petition did not come from the Ship owners of Scarborough, but was the petition of an individual of that town. Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman, by quoting that petition, appeared to convey to the House sentiments and opinions, as the sentiments and opinions of the Ship-owners of Scarborough, which the body of Ship-owners did not entertain. It was the petition of an individual from which he quoted, and it was not fair to involve the whole body of Shipowners in the inaccurate statements and wild opinions of an individual. He was requested to say thus much on behalf of the Ship-owners, who felt themselves on this occasion misrepresented by the Right lion. Gentleman. Mr. HUSKISSON could not forbear from the expression of his surprise, that a complaint of a mis representation, stated to have been made by him in May, 1827, should have been deferred to the 24th of June, 1828.—(Hear, hear.)—There was some thing of a tardy disposition on the part of the com plainants which could not fail in attracting some at tention—(Loud cries of hear, hear.) —When the subject of the shipping interest was discussed a week ago, and when various opportunities were afforded since that period, he was at a loss to know why they had been passed over, and why the complaint was delayed to the present moment. The quarter from which the complaint was communicated to the House also attracted his attention. Whatever might be the connection subsisting ketween the Gallant Officer and the Ship-owners of Scarborough, it could not be of a closer character than that subsist ing between those Ship-owners and their Represen tatives of that borough ; through one of whom, it might naturally be expected, if a complaint MIT at all to be made, it would have been conveyed to the House. He (Mr. II) had further to remark, that no intimation had been given to him of the intention of the Gallant Officer 'to bring forward this subject this evening. --(Hear, hear.)--Under these circum stances (he could only speak froM memory) he should regret to have said any thing injurious to a highly respectable body of persons, such as the Ship-owners of Scarborough were. He recollected that there were two petitions from Scarborough. The petition from which he quoted was presented from a person deeply engaged in the shipping trade, and whose statements were therefore deserving of attention. This was all that he could undertake to say at the distance of fourteen months from the pe riod at which the speech adverted to by the Gallant Officer was spoken. He would not now enter into the question of currency, which had been touched upon, further than to observe, that lve supposed thealteration in the currency had affected the freights in the same way that all the rather articles were affected by that alteration. lie had only to remark, in addition, as to what had been said by a Gallant °Meer (Sir J. Yorke) of his having become nothing from a Secre tary of State, that he could assure the Gallant Mem ber that he would display an equanimity of temper fully equal to that which had been evinced by him self during the long time that he (Sir J. Yorke) had been in that unfortunate situation. (Hear, and laughter.) Mr. DUNCOMBE (of York) corroborated the statement of the Gallant Officer (Colonel Trench) as to the respectability of the Ship-owners of Scar borough, and the distinction between the two peti tions from that town—one from the Ship-owners of Scarborough, and the other from an individual of that town. Mr. lIUME said that he had been a party to the reciprocity measures, and he had been so on the stipulation of all the unfair restraints which impeded British vessels from a competition with foreign vessels being removed. This was the principle of the reciprocity system, which had his most cordial support; and he hoped that such a system would ast, and survive the limited period of ten years, which had been marked out for its duration. The Honourable Member adverted to many advantages of this system, and particularly dwelt upon the ad vantage afforded by the change in the Navigation Laws, which freed British vessels from the restric tion imposed upon them of victualling at British ports. Sir J. GRAHAM vindicated the petitioners from the charge of inconsistency, and read passages from the petition in support of that vindication. General GASCOYNE said, that he found a con firmation of the statements and opinions which he had made on a former evening, in the speech of the Honourable Member for Bridgenorth (Mr. War burton), who had a large capital engaged in foreign as well as British shipping. It appeared that the British Ship-owners were realising nothing, and pay ing the expellees of their trade out of their own capital. They resembled farmers who paid their rents out of their own capital, in the hope that some turn of events would take place out of which they would realize profit. Mr. HEATHCOTE deprecated a discussion on this subject at present, as, at this advanced period of the Session, there was no likelihood of any new measure being adopted. He was glad to learn that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Courtenay) and his Colleague had intended to devote themselves to this subject, and hoped that, from the inquiry, bene ficial alterations would emanate. Sir J. YORKE regretted that he should have said any thing unpleasant to the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Huskisson) who bad just left the House. lie was sincerely sorry that that Right Hon. Gen tleman should have written a despatch at two o'clock in the morning, the consequence of which was his eviction from office. It was a source of general re gret that the Right Hon. Gentleman, did not remain in office to superintend the working of that system of free trade which was fathered upon him. Col. TRENCH vindicated himself from a want of courtesy towards the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) in not giving him notice of his in tention to make mention of the subject which he had that night noticed. Several moMths ago, he had written a note to the Right Mon. Gentleman expres sive of his intention► to make mention of the subject, to which the Right Monourable Gentleman made no reply. He had also intended to mention the sub ject when the subject of the shipping interest was under discussion to a late hour. He had not, then, however, an opportunity of doing so. And further, he had requested his Honourable Friend, one of the Members for Scarborough, to communicate his in tention to the Right Hon. Gentleman. Sir C. BURRELL wished to be informed whether any direction had been given to the Contractors in the Dock-yards not to use British timber; and whether an order had been given for 336,000 loads of foreign timber? If such orders had been given, they evinced a most undue preference in favour of foreign produce. The 'CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said he did not possess any positive information on the subject himself, as it was not in his department, ' but he collected from his Hon. Friends around him that no such orders had been given. Mr. C. GRANT warmly complained of the injus tice that was done his Right Hon. Friend, the late Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, with respect to the reciprocity system. That system dated much farther back than 1824 or 1821. It began in the year 1810. It began by Orders in Council; by Acts of Parliament. Let any rational man look at the state of the world 30 or 40 years ago, and at its state at present; and then say if it would have been possible to retain the system of impotent barbarism which formerly prevailed.— (Hear, hear.)—At the former period, America was a province, subject to the will and the laws of the metropolitan country. At present she was inde pendent and supreme. Would any man say that the same system was applicable in the one case as in the other ? He must protest against arguing this ques• tion on narrow limits, when the whole course of nature, and all the wants and wishes of civilized life, had undergone so great a change. What we •had done, we should have been obliged to do in spite of ourselves. We had been surrounded and hampered with inextricable diAulties. We found ourselves in a situation in which the other States of the world would not submit to adhere tolobsolete usages. The progress of freedom and intelligence demanded that we should endeavour to keep pace with them.—(Hear, hear)—lt demanded that we should contribute to the establishment of a great commercial and independent system, by which, and by which alone, the welfare of the world could be securely established.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that this question would henceforth be argued upon such great and generous principles. NO man who Tooke.', back on the history of past times, but must see the impossibility of reviving those exploded no tions and maxims which, however consonant to those times, were most unsuitable to the enlight elle,' period in which we lived.—(Hear, hear.) Sir J. YORKE was glad to have been the cause of the splendid oration which the House had just heard; although in what he had said he had never contemplated it. After a few words from Mr. IRVING, the petition was ordered to be printed. EMIGRATION. Mr. W. MORTON rose,. pursuant to notice, for the purpose of bringing under the consideration of the House a resolution on the subject of emigration. It would not impose upon Parliament the necessity of taking any decided measure at the present moment; it would merely go to pledge the House to take up the subject early in the ensuing Session. He was astonished in a debate on a former evening to hear it stated by his lion. Friend, not now in his place (the Member for Kerry), that it was a mistake to suppose that the state of Ireland called for the espe cial consideration of that House. His Hon. Friend referred to the exports and imports, for the purpose of shelving the prosperity of that country ; and it also astonished him to find that not only such was the opinion of that Hon. Member, but that he found some supporters in that House. The Bishop of Limerick, no mean authority, haul in his evidence before the Committee appointed in 1826, to inquire into the state of Ireland, avowed sentiments quite opposite to those of the Hon. Member for Kerry. —[The Right lion. Gentleman then read an extract from the eviden..e of the Right Rev. Prelate, in which he ttate*l that the condition of Ireland was truly frightful, the under-tenants of under-tenants dispossessed of their holdings going to distant parts of the country collecting aid, and returning at night to avenge their supposed wrongs, and gratifying that revenge by destroying the dwellings, and attacking the lives of his Majesty's more peaceable sub jects ; this was of course followed by reprisals, by public prosecutions and ignominious death.] — On reflection, he thought by possibility, that it might be objected to that evidence, that inasmuch as it was delivered in 1826, it might be in nowise applicable to 1828—that, in short, circumstances which have since occurred, might have altered the views of the Bishop of Limerick; and were he again to be ex amined, he would give evidence the very reverse of that which, with perfect sincerity and good judg ment, he gave before the Irish Committee. In order to neutralize whatever importance might be sup posed to attach to an objection of that nature, he made an application to the Bishop of Limerick, in quiring whether any circumstances had occurred since 1826, which would induce him to qualify in any manner the evidence then given by him. To this the most satisfactory reply had been given. He stated that he had had an opportunity of reading his evidence over again, and that were he to be a second time examined, he should not alter or qua lify a single expression. Those, then, were the views of a Prelate of the Established Church—those were the emphatic terms which he used. The Irish peasant is represented as lying the entire day on a litter of straw, rising in the evening to eat a few potatoes, and then lying down to spend the night as he had passed the day. These latter opinions and statements, the House would observe, were in per feet accordance with the sentiments of the Bishop of Limerick—they were the opinions of Dr. Doyle, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin. The life which he described before the Committee as being the life led by the Irish peasantry, was one which all men must agree with Dr. Doyle, had better be terminated in any manner rather than con tinued under circumstances so frightful. Thus, then, the House had before them the evidence of prelates of the two churches, both tending to the same direction. It was not necessarily consequent upon his motion that a remedy should be instantly suggested ; the effect of his resolution, if adopted, would be to leave it in the discretion of any Mem ber hereafter to follow up that preliminary step in any manner that future circumstances might seem to require. He could not but express extreme regret that the subject had excited so little interest in the House, on a matter of the very highest importance, not only to Ireland, but to England also. In the total absence, however, of support in that House, it was satisfactory to him (Mr. W. Horton) to know that there were those out of doors by whom the subject had been taken up, and authorities, too, who exercised a great influence on public opinion. (The Hon. Member here read, at some length, extracts from the Quarterly, Edinburgh, and Westminster Reviews, all of which favoured the system of emi gration.) He (Mr. Wilmot Horton) felt gra tified in finding such authorities on his side. Ile remembered the abuse poured forth against emi gration by a publication of high authority with some of the Members of that House—he meant Black wood's Magazine. Now he could produce &defence of the emigration plari from a late number of that publication. Here the Right Hon. Gentleman read an extract from Blacktvood's Magazine, in which the existence of a redundant population, particularly in Ireland, was noticed, and the question asked, Why was not emigration from Ireland thought of as a remedy for the evil ? " We must say (observed the writer) that Mr. Wilmot Horton has Leen shamefully dealt with on this subject by his friends on both sides of the House." (The reading of this portion of the extract caused a good deal of laugh ter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to controvert the assertion of the Hon. Member for Derry, that the influx of Irish poor into this coun try had not increased, and in support of his argu ment he produced a table exhibiting the increase of the Irish poor in London since 1825. He regretted much that he did not sec the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department in his place on this occa sion. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) had been mainly instrumental in sending out an individual (Gen. Cockburn) some time since to the Colonies, to ascertain what facts could be collected on the subject ; and his Right Honourable Friend stated that the object of the mission was to see how far a practical plan of emigration could be curried into execution by the Government. His Right Honourable Friend added, that for himself he was of opinion that a rational system of emigration would tend to relieve the country, by affording a facility to the unemployed population of the country to better their condition. Emigration came recom mended as a system of economy. The support of the redundant population at home cost more than their transportation to the colonies would amount to. The expence, in fact, attendant upon their emigra . - lien would be less than that incurred in endeavour ing to force employment for them in these countries. He felt it his duty to call the attention of the House to the sudden indisposition manifested on its part during the present session, in respect to emigration as a remedy for the evils of Ireland. He had, in deed, received communications from Ireland, stating that the Catholic Association had pat the stamp of their reprobation on the plan of emigration, and that therefore it could not be thought of. There was, in fact, a petition from that body on this sub ject on the tables of the House. It was written by an individual of high authority in these matters in Ireland, who denied that Ireland was ovcrpeopled, and attributed its wretchedness solely to misgovern ment. It stated that 1,000,000 of persons might be equally reduced to poverty in such a country by such treatment, but that their misery would not prove that the country ryas over-peopled. It pro ceeded to state, that the exports of Ireland princi pally consisted of all those productions which con stituted the prime necessaries of human life, such as corn, butter, bacon, beef, mutton, &c. to the amount of 8,000,000/. annually, and that a country with sach exports could not be considered as over-popu lous. He (Mr. W. Horton) would not pay such a bad compliment to the writer of that petition as to suppose that he was sincere when he penned such a passage as that, and that he really believed that be cause the produce of Ireland reached a high value, and was therefore sold in this country, that Ireland con sequently was not afflicted with a redundant population. Was it to be contended that absentees in that country bad no right to receive their rents, because they did not give them to be eaten up, as it were, by .the population of Ireland ? That would be going feu• to establish a system of agrarian law. A s►milar effect, too, would result from carrying into execution the project said to be entertained of introducing a system of poor laws into Ireland, without pre viously allowing time for improving the existing mode of managing property. He believed no person would be found to contradict him, when he stated, that if the English system of poor laws were at once established in Ireland, the whole rental of certain parts of that country would be completely absorbed by it. Some individuals contended that the vacuum caused by emigration would have a tendency to in crease the population. That an increase would take place could not be denied; but the increase was likely to be in a greater ratio where the people were in a state of wretchedness, than where they were in a state of comparative comfort and enjoyi►►g advan tages which operated as a check upon marriage.-- (Hear.)—lt had been said by an Hon. Friend that the remedy for the unfortunate condition of Ireland was to be found in extending encouragement to her manufactures and agriculture. That he considered a perfectly false doctrine. What was the stimulus to be applied ? Was it intended to give the manufac tures of Ireland an advantage over those of this country ? He could put no other constructiom on the proposition, for how could manufactures in Ire land be encouraged but by the application of a bonus, and how could that fail to be prejudicial to the ma nufacturing interest of this country ? With respect to the agriculture of Ireland it already had the com mand of the English market. His Honourable Friend, to whom he hail before referred, bad said that he would render a family, consisting of five persons, happy and comfortable in Ire land at one-foOrth of the expense xvhich it would cost to remove' them to Canada. He (Mr. Horton) would venture to assert that the fact was just the other way. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to advert to what be termed the erroneous notions which had, until a late period, pre ' veiled with respect to population, and read an ex tract from a pamphlet by the late Arthur Ycung, in which the writer stated that the labouring classes constituted the real strength of the country, and la mented that parish authorities imposed checks upon their marriages and attempts to procure settlements. That proposition was, in the abstract, very true; but it was as ►mpossiblc to have too large a population as it was to have too much blood in the hu►nan body, although that blood was the principle of vitality. The c}►ief object of the emigration cornmittee had been to point out the superior advantage of a regular plan of emigration. With such a plan ►t would he incomparably mere economical to rereove the super abundant population►, and to improve their condition in Ireland. He would Fay that there were 500,000 unemployed labourers in Ireland. They could not be supported for less than 4/. per annum, which would amount to ' 2 ,000,000/. He would undertake to remove them to Canada at one-sixth part of that expellee. In order to satisfy the House of the advantage which would attend emigration on an extensive • scale, he requested attention to the evidence given by Mr. Felton before the Committee. That gentleman was asked, " Could any inconvenience, in your opinion, Arise, or would Any uncertainty of success be in n volved in the case of - any number of emigrants plant ed and located according to the system adopted in the emigration of 1823 and 1825 ? Would the ex tent of their number affect their success, provided that, in point of fact, means did exist for planting and locating them upon the principle of advanced capital, according to the precedent• of 1823 and 1825 ?" Mr. Felton's answer was—" None what ever. I conceive that the facilities of planting emi grants will increase with their numbers, and that in carrying on the operation in future ate expenses will be very much diminished. As to the extent of the Success, I believe that the more numerous the esta blishment the greater chance there is of ultimate success ; because they form a dense population, ca pable of assisting each other in all public works and works of magnitude that Mily be useful for the ge neral interest; and as to their markets, a large num ber of emigrants established ;:ogether will inevitably be accompanied by a subdivision of labour useful to every individual interested in the settlement." When he (Mr. Honor.) was under Secretary for the Colonial Department, he received from a most respectable firm a proposal to take from the settlers in Canada payments in kind for the money expended by Government in their trans portation and location, told to pay a fair price for it. He HOW begged leave to read the following passage from the evidence of Mr. Malthus :—" Have you formed any opinion as to what would be the prac tical effects of introducing a system of poor laws into a country circumstanced like Ireland ? I should think that the rates would very soon alesorb the rentals of all tyre estates." " Do you think that, en the whole, it would have a tendency to alleviate or to increase the misery that now prevails there? I think on the whole, and finally, it would aggravate it." "Do not you conceive, under the existing feature of comparison between the British islands, that if the population of . any district in Great Britain were to be materially reduced.by a system of emi gration, one effect would he that the vacuum would be immediately filled up with an increased number,' of Irish ?—I should think so, certainly." " Sup posing that by any system of emigration an imme diate reduction of the population of Ireland to the extent of half a million could be effected, do you not think that there is in the existing order of things in that country a tendency immediately to fill up that vacuum ?—" There is always a natural tendency towards the filling up of a vacuum ; but if the land cis in Ireland were making a change in the manage ment of their estates, and were altering the distribu tion of their land, I think it is possible that the vacuum might not be filled up, because those mi serable hovels that had been deserted might be pulled down and not be replaced." He should not detain the House,after the patient hearing they had favoured him with, longer than to move " that it is the opi nion of this House that early in the next session of Parliament they should take into their consideration the expediency of adopting some 'measure, whether by emigration on an extended scale or otherwise, to relieve the pauperism of Ireland, and better the con dition of the labouring classes in this country, by re lieving them from the fatal effects of a too great com petition in labour." Mr: GRATTAN said emigration was no novelty; it was a worn-out and antiquated mode of getting rid of a population we had not .the sound policy to employ advantageously. It had been acted on par tially in many or most estates in Ireland ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman wanted an organized system of emigration. To this principle he was opposed. Let even the poor laws ba generally introduced in preference to such an expedient, and let the land owners be compelled to contribute in proportion to their tenures towards the support of the lower classes, arid the innocently indigent.—(Hear.) Mr. S. RICE said if the subjects of the present motion, unhappily, by circumstances were degraded, it had been acknowledged both in that House and by judicial authorities, that that degradation was not 3 degradation of character, but of condition, and they were on all hands allowed to he laborious, moral, and honest. lie would never submit to any ar rangement, much less to any Act of Parliament, which should limit the free intercourse between the two countries, either as to commodities or persons of every class, He believed all attempts to introduce the poor laws into Ireland would be found vain, and the project itself preposterous. He rather thought a judicious plan of emigration, followed up, would, instead of being a bar, prove an incentive to improve ment on the part of Irish Land-owners, who now felt their efforts to improve their estates borne down by the weight of a superabundant population of eottagers upon them. It was said that it would he unfair to impose a tax on this country to encourage emigration, and benefit the Irish Land-owners, who would contribute nothing to the project themselves. Now, he was of opinion, that not only the tenants themselves, but their landlords, would be willing to contribute to this great object, and free themselves from the incumbrance which pressed so discourag ingly on their resources and efforts. Indeed, he be lieved they would pay all the expenses, if Govern ment would only provide them with facilities. He asked no mortgages of public property, no grants of land in Canada to carry the project of emigration into execution—he only asked that Government would present to Parliament, after the resumption of its labours next Session, such a project for en couraging emigration as would ensure the cordial co operation of both the Land-owners and their tenants, and induce them jointly to bear the expense of the project. Colonel TRENCH, while he opposed the ap plication of amy fund to the encouragement of emi gration, thought that one-fourth of the money might be beneficially employed in encouraging industry at home. The Sub-letting Act was an incalculable blessing to Ireland; but a systematic plan of emi gration would be the reverse. It would increase instead of checking the evil of redundancy, and make the nation in a still stronger degree than before manufacturers of men for exportation.—(A laugh.) Mr. M. FITZGERALD complained that his Right Hon. Friend had been hardly dealt with, after having encountered every discouragement from apathy and resistant, in a question which could have no other motive for supporting it than the interest of Ireland and the colonies. The member for Wick low had sneered at him, as if he were the author of a new scheme. But emigration was assuredly no new, scheme. It had been going on in all countries groatiy to their benefit. and especially in Scotland and Ireland. Neither of his Hon. Friends appeared to have read the report which they concurred in condemning. They were mistaken in supposing that it r was, meant to encourage . the emigration of persons of small capital. On the contrary, it was intended to give them every inducement to remain, by carrying off the pauper popul a ti on . • N ot hi ng could he more unjust than to charge on the land lords of Ireland the state of the pauper population. —lf his Right Hon Friend could shape his proposi tion into a practical measure, the landlords of Ire land would be most willing to assist in carrying it into effect. It was not intended as a system of com pulsory transportation, bnt as a means of carrying into effect the natural tendency of a redundant popu lation to emigrate. Mr. WARBURTON said, that in the premises on which this question tested, there was not any difference between the Bight Hon. Gentleman and himself. They both of them agreed that the colo nies would be improved by directing the tide of emigration to. their shores; and the sole question between them related to the amount of prosperity which such a system of emigration would confer upon the mother country. Now he was of opinion, from the data which the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself offered that evening to the House, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman were allowed to expend a million and a half in emigration, he would find that the annual increase of the population wo u ld f ar exceed the annual diminution of it by emigration, and consequently that he was expending that million and a half of money for no earthly benefit whatever. He thought it unfair that the country to which the tide of emigration was to be directed, should be a country which did not yield any commodity of value to this country. If emigration were to be formed n oy the upon the principles which had been lie (1 Hon. Member for Limerick. . ( e .o c ‘ o v iiducted into a system, lie hoped that it wo ' " l l fh Gentleman opposite succeeded in carrP-'lg,. scheme of emigration into effect, the first re., Pt' of it. would be to elevate the remaining pauper pot ''ul"- t Mr. SLANEY said, that if the Rie , tion of Ireland in the scale of comfort, and the ns would be to check the increasing population of t he. country by doing away with that recklessness whic h led to so many early and improvident marriage s. Another benefit.of such a scheme would be, that it. would tend collaterally to improve 'the condition of the poor in England. Formerly the Welsh descend ed from the mountains of Montgomeryshire and Merionethshire, to reap the harvests of Shropshire. Now they were driven out of the fields or Shrop shire by the immense crowds of Irishmen, who nit nurdly came over and reaped the harvest at a much lower rate that the Welsh could afford to doe Again—there were a quantity of young women who • came every year from Shropshire up to London to gristlier the strawberries in the vicinity, and to carry them to the different markets. He understood that this year several of these young women had written down to their friends, stating, that it would be quite unnecessary for them to come np to London again, as their market was taken away from them by the number of the low Irish sTomen, who worked at • much lower wages than they iesd ever received.— (A laugh.) Mr. PEEL—His Right Hole iriemi l proposed that the House should pledge itself to take 11, to con sideration, at an curly day the next Session of Par liament, the propriety of adopting certain ineastir:zis of emigration. Now, he should have objected to much a proposition had the rocesnres to be Adopted been precisely and definitely described; still more:. therefore, must he object to it, when those measures were vaguely and indefinitely mentioned. The words of the resolution were—" That this House will, upon an early day in the ensuing Session of Parliament, take into its consideration the propriety of adopting such measures of emigration, either upon a large and extended scale or otherwise"— yes, the words were " or otherwise"—a form of expression which included every thing And suggested nothing. But the resolution went on—;` measures of emigration either upon a large and exten;led scale or otherwise, as may be calculated to relieve the peeper population of Ireland, and to prevent the injurious effects which might arise from the existente' of that population to the labouring classes of thi§ country." Now , before lie excited arty expectations in the country about the efficacyofany measures ofemigra tion,.he must know what the nature of those measures was. Ile thought, too, that it would be better for the House, and indeed better also for the country, if the House would refrain from embarrassing itself by ally pledge as to what it would do the next Session. The case really was not justified by that urgent necessity which alone ought to induce the House to enter into a pledge as to its future conduct in another Session of Parliament. Having sail this much on this part of the subject, he would now candidly confess that to emigration he attached considerable importance in one point of view. He was not, how ever, so sanguine as his Right Hon. Friend as to the immediate benefit which it would produce. Ile was afraid that the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury would still hare occasion for sortie time to lament over the annual expulsion of the Welsh mountaineers from the harvests of Shropshire, by the incursions of half-starved, greedy Irishmen, and that the straw berry-gatherers of Shropshire wenld still be driven from the purlieus of Covent-garden, by the troops of low Irishwomen who had lately supplanted them in the market, and taken from them their former tasks. Still he was of opinion that emigration, if conducted without too great an outlay of the public funds, would be productive of great ultimate benefit to the lower classes of the community in this 'country. He Would not deny that it was his opinion, that to the Colonies themselves a system of emigration would be of immediate advantage. He could not, how ever, consent to the policy of laying out large sums of public money to encourage emigration. The question which. the House had to decide was simply this,—whether it was better to let the productive capital remain where it now wag, or to transfer it for contingent advantages to another quarter ? He had no objection to giving every reasonable facility to emigration; but such facility should be of a local nature, for he could see no cheek whatever to the expectations which would be excited sup posing the •Government were to say that it had 5,000,0001. at its disposal to promote emigration. He would take that opportunity of saving, that it was a great mistake to suppose that the project of his Right H Friend was a project of forced emi gration. His Right Hon. Friend did not seek to compel any man to quit his country against Iris will: quite the reverse,—he only wished to give them fa cilities, if voluntarily inclined to try their fortune iu another country. He saw many diffletilties in the practical consideration of this question. In what mode, for instance, the Irish pauper was to be selec ted for emigration ; how far it was fair to call upon the people of England, who had to pay their own poor's rates, to defray the expenditure for relieving the Irish landlords from theirs.—(Hear.) ; and likewise how it was possible to provide that con staid check upon the desire for emigration which must always operate while pecuniary encouragement was held out. Against affording new facilities for mortgaging the poor's-rates, there must naturally arise a variety of objections. The hest limit, at pre sent, to their undue extension was, that the Ines-. sure of the screw wits immediately felt; but if they mice allowed the present generation to cast the bur den upon their successors, they would introduce a sort of funded system into the poor's-rates, the evils of which it would be difficult to avert. Among the variety of other considerations there was this like wise to be borne in mind,—that a fixed plan of emi gration assumed that the paupers' necessities required a permanent change, which was not the fact, for his condition was dependent on the fluctuation of labour. Ile had not adverted to the natural and just facilities which the Government might give to volunteer emi grants ho meant of that class whose own means were sufficient to hold out a prospect of their form ing a nucleus for a labouring population in the eo lies. And here he thought it would be highly ad vantageous for his valuable friend (Colonel Cock burn) to prosecute his inquiries in North America for the Colonial-office, so that persons desirous of embarking adequate capital should have some place to which they could resort for Lone fete information respecting the qualities and geneses! condition of the ati(l where they might wish to settle. And upon this point any expence ofa moderate nature to which the country might be put, would be ultimately coin abrupt or imme lteeaftotlitehet"(t'olinsiitmioliiiniotfy;anbyut he thought, if and carefully reg u l ate d, i t mightbe ren dered subservient to the attainment of eventual be nefit. He hoped, however, that his Right Hon. Friend would not press his motion to a division. Mr. W. MORTON withdrew-his motion. IRISH CHURCH LIVINGS. Sir J. NEWPORT brought forward his motion for an Address for an Inquiry into the State of the Established Church of Ireland, respecting unions of parishes, pluralities of livings, cad provision for the Curates officiating therein. The Right Hon. Bart. then read his Resolutions, adding some explanatory remarks that were inaudible in the gallery, but which were understood to contain the same declarations as the following Resolutions conrcyed : " Resolved, That it appears to this House, fro m the returns laid before them, that 1 ,153 parishes of the several dioceses of Ireland, hieing more than one half of the entire number, have entered into an egreement for the payment of 278,037/. 155. for their tithes, under the Computation Act for ecclesi astical incumbents. " Th a t it appears . . to this Committee from the same return', that the above 1,163 pacilies, teg( ther with 298 pitriAes Which have not compounded, are united in 796 benefices. " That it appears the average income of each is )11 1 a f tha De lie' . th ei, 1 and v ourn'' s ` 5 01‘ e at man' amen d , ers to Cl Bl6 11 6 ', edy. f c ; tion o' 4 p