The Sun. — London, England, 1849-07-07 00:00:00

- - IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT• 'HOUSE OF LORDS, July 6. Their Lordships assembled at Five o'clock. The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition in favour of the Servants' Provident Society's Bill. The Earl of LYTTELTON presented several peti tions in favour of the Protection to Women Bill. The following Bills were respectively read and passed through Committee, on the motion of Earl GRAN VILLE:—The Loan Societies Bill, the Assaults (Ire land) Bill, the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Bill, the Soap Allowances Bill, and the Sheriff of Westmorland Bill. PRISON DISCIPLINE. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Dr. Rice on the subject of prison discipline. The Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to move the following resolutions on the subject of imprisonment: — " 1. That the legitimate object of all im p risonment for offences being t o detain persons committed until trial, and persons convicted for punishment, or unt il trans ported, or until executed, it is a matter both of justice and sound policy that due means should be afforded in every prison of classifying prisoners, so as to keep those who are detained for trial apart from those who are detained after conviction. " 2. That it is further expedient to provide the means of separating different classes of prisoners, especially keeping the young apart from the old offenders; and that, a perfect system of prison discipli ne woul also afford the means of further classifying prisoners both before and after trial. " 3. That the food, raiment, and lodging of prisoners after trial ought to be on the lociest scale of expense aril of comfort consistent with the safe custody and the health of the prisoners. " 4. That the object of punishment being . the diminu tion of crime, and the means thereto being example and reformation, so much labour should be exacted from con victs as shall make every prison a place of terror to the indolent, and at the same time a school for teaching in dustrious habits. " 5. That the economy of prisons further requires such aid to the public funds as may bo obtained from prison labour. " 6. That such branches of industry only should be cultivated in prisons as do not interfere with the indus trious poor in their callings. " 7. That it appears expedient, whenever possible, to connect with the prison a piece of ground which may be laboured by the prisoners, in order to raise such produce as can most beneficially be obtained from the soil and their work. " 8. That subject to the limitation in resolution 6, when agricultural or horticultural labour is inconvenient or impossible working at, manufactures or handicrafts should ba required as part of the prison discipline. " 9. That with a view to punishment as well as refor mation, separation with labour should in proper cases be effected, but not solitary confinement, unless for prison offences and for short periods of time. " 10. That both with a view to economy and to punishment deterring and reforming, it is expedient to award time sentences, with compulsory labour, instead of time sentences only, and to make the duration of imprisonment and the quality of diet depend upon the prisoner's conduct and the amount of his labour, due regard being had to the differences of sex, age, and strength. " 11. That in all prisons due attention should be always given to religious and moral instruction, and a proper provision of useful books be made. "12. That as in all prisons the reformation of prisoners depends more on the zeal and knowledge of the officers tban on rules and mechanical arrangements, it is of the highest importance to select such officers with great care, and so remunerate them as to command the most efficient service." The Noble Lord said, he would perhaps be consulting the convenience of the House and serving the object of the peti tioners by abstaining from going into any detail on the reso. lutions he had moved, and contenting himself with briefly stating the opinions which he and they held on that impor tant question. Many abuses, undoubtedly, existed in the various systems of prison discipline in force half a century ago, and though he highly appreciated the exertions of such benevolent individuals as Sir Thomas Fowell Buxton, Mrs. Fry, and others, yet he was very far from agreeing in all their opinions and views, which went to make a prison a place of comfort instead of a place of punish ment for offenders. This, however, had been the practical consequence of the system of prison reform begun by those individuals, and carried out unreflectingly by those who had followed them. At Reading gaol, for example, the prisoners were almost allewe.l to do as they liked; there was no hard labour, nor any compulsory work, ex cept that the convicts were compelled to learn to read and write. The only labouring was that of pump ing up water for washing, to which eight men were set, although two were enough to do the work; and even as to this the prisoners might exercise their discretion, and refuse-if they-pleased. One prisoner re fused on the ground that he was a " professional," and the work would impair the delicacy of touch required in his "calling," as he termed it; and what did their Lordships think was this person's profession? Neither more nor less than that of a pickpocket. The consequence of this discretion allowed the prisoners as to working was, that the individual earnings of each averaged only 2s. Bd. a year; while at Cold bath-fields, where the prisoners were put to compulsory bard labour, their earnings were 41. 6s. a year each. At Reading, the annual cost of maintaining and lodging a pri soner was 301. 10s., and at doldbath- fields only 14/. ; all the difference being caused by the ultra-benevolent system adopted at the former. When the magistrates of Reading gaol, however, were examined before their Lordships' Com mittee on Prison Discipline, they stated that they considered the 'system adopted there to be the most effectual for re farming offenders, and on being asked what that system was, they answered, that it consisted only of study, the pri soners being taught reading, writing, and arithmetic, and invited to occupy their leisure time in reading or some light instructive occupation, so that the prison rather resembled an university, of which the gaolers and turnkeys were the pro fessors. There was no labour to lessen the expense of main tenance, or,to give habits of voluntary industry, an important consideration to which he should advert presently. Nothing of the sort, said these Berkshire magistrates—study, study, nothing but study. But how long were these students kept? If they were at their studies for two or three years some results might be anticipated from them; but out of 730 persons convicted, he found between 500 and 60 were confined under three months. .31any of them five or six weeks.— ( Hear, hear.) If this plan of study was ever so beneficial in itself, or ever so well intended on the part of the projectors, this short period of detention was enough to render it an absurdity and neutralise any practical benefit that might otherwise have ensued. It was impossible that they could do any good in three months; they only in curred a large outlay, and made the people pay heavy rates for an utter absurdity, as the number of re-committals to this very gaol showed, and these were not all— how many more were sent to Abingdon gaol after having been con fined in Reading? The average number of annual com mittals for the whole county was 100,000, of which number 66,000 were first offences, and 33,00 a consisted of persons who had committed crime more than once. The average gain of each prisoner would give 26,0001 a year towards the cost of maintenance; but if in all the pris ns they earned no more than they did at Reading, it would be only 2,0001., while if all gained as much as they did in Uoldbath-fields, and he saw no reason why they should not, the annual amount would be 66,0001. in relief of an annual outlay of no less than 480,0001,, which was the cost of these criminals to the country. In America, the labour of the prisoners en tirely supported them; in Belgium and France very nearly so; so that in this respect it would be seen what a woeful falling off there was in this country.—(Hear, hear.) Hav ing detained their Lordships so long with these details, he would now solicit their attention to a more important sub ject—namely, the principle on which they should proceed, with the assistance of the local magistracy, to remove the evils he had pointed out. He said, the assistance of the local magistracy emphatically, because, while he knew the Executive Government had great power in the controlling of prisons already built, they could not of their own motion make the magistracy erect improved and reformatory prisons, or do many things which were indispensable to a thorough reformation of the system. He trusted, therefore, that the country gentlemen would see the wisdom of the course he was about to state, and act with their usual gene rosity—nay, he would say wisdom, by co-operating with the Legislature and the Government in giving it effect. The first proposition he had to lay down was, that the deterring power of criminal infliction was very much overrated. It was not at all to be wondered at that the country gentlemen who acted as justices of the peace should fall into this mis take; they had a high admiration for the law; over their minds it had its full and legitimate influence, but they did not make allowance for the different character of those on whom they inflicted punishment. All who had had the greatest and longest experience of the actual administration of justice—judges, prison inspectors, gaolers—all those who had the opportumny of seeing the prisoner after he was taken from the dock, and during the period of his imprison a ! ment—the persons, in fact, who were best able to judge of the practical effect of our present system, placed the least re liance on mere punishment, as deterring from the commis sion of crime. Ix fact, the state of valnd, in which crime was committed was an inflamed, not a calculating one. The passions were excited to that extent that reason was overpowered. • For example, revenge was excited, and murder was the result. Lust was inflamed, and the passion gave way. But, then, it was said that the cer tainty of punishment must have a deterring effect. That Was the opinion of the late Mr. Bentham... But in putting forth that opinion, Bentham had not taken into considera tion the difference of temperament, of education, and circumstances which influenced individuals, and, until these could be accurately estimated, the same punishment could not possibly operate to deter criminals thus variously another light in which fluenced. There was, however, punishment could 'be looked at, the imPortance of which it was impossible to overestiritate, and that was, its reforma. tory effect.—(Hear, hear.) He feared that had hitherto been too little calculated by legislators, and, indeed, h it be longed more to what he mig ht call criminal police, t ' criminal jurisprudence. What, then, was the reformatory 6 ”tet o -It was a strict system of discipline to be main tained continuously.- to make prisons the bad attd the • places of suffering for irreclaimable if such there are ; places of • instruction for those w ho were' , reclaimable —not as in Read ing gaol, to teach the 'merely to read. There was no man living who valued edu e ton more highly than he did, but he valued training, arid, above l all, usef u l t ra i n i ng more highly. He said that, if in th 4 cityo e f London all the children from two to four years of age were would do more to diminish crirne e l e a fally by trained, that they any other measure they could adopt. But it h a d been said th at. as we were as sured in SCeipture," the poor we should h so we should always have the cr i m i nal, always w ith us, " well, that was a thought a g s3- t 4 - reason for opening widely the g a t es o f the efor lam, in order to repress crime. He a n d til e l rnato with him rested their hopes of reformation entirelywhn upon jabour. It was not a mere theory. The 700 persons eigned the 'petition he had presented, comprisingjug• eA who ma gistrates, prison inspectors, and gaolers, all gave it as the re suit of their varied and long experience. He had also th e authority of his own profession, among them that of a highly respectable' solicitor; a Member of the other House ( Mr. C. Pearson), vho had nobly given his time arid his abilities to this subject ; and he hail also the high authority of Mr. Re_ corder Hill and his brother, Mr. Frederick Hill, the prison inspector,-higher than which could not be cited on the sub ject, The doctrine which he and they held was, that labour is the reformer of crime. When a man was maintained in prison let work, but let it be such work as will induce him not only to exert himself at the time, but at the same time gradually acquire the habit of voluntary industry. That could only be done by giving them inducements to labour, by treating them as unfortunate and criminal, but still reasonable beings who-had motives for their actions. He was happy to say that Captain Macchonochie, who had been appointed to the management of the Warwickshire gaol, was about to introduce this system,—(Hear, hear.) Wherever it had been acted upon At had proved highly successful. At Methay - , in France, at the Korne, Hamburgh, and Strett i o ia na upon-Dunsmore, in Warwichthire , t hou g h the sue t c ' e o s s n and been more or less complete , ac cordin g to the ra l e n xt n en o t th o i f ng the m e o x re pe d ri i m at e io n o ts t i y t h w e as s s t • s h t a e t m ao li c ad a le s e b n ow su n cc tb es a s o fu i l n . Reading, more accurate means of testing these than t the small number of re-committals, and there were much more The system was simply to they left the establishment. distinct account was kept of the conduct of every one a e f ur e i r . ploy land dm sufficient the cie ot field for a and at garden purpose, in theirand turn, w b4r w e h e therere thereNyas w noT to introduce staple manufacture, bv eans of which they supply their own clothing, and at the same time look forward to something of their own on their liberation. The effect of this system had been perfectly satisfactory. But the reformatory system was not consistent with short periods of imprisonment. Mr. Rushton, the police magistrate of Liverpool, had shown the effect of short confinement, in the faet that children—lads under twelve years of age—had been committed 16, 17, and 18 times. Just see the effect of this on the country. During the last forty years the popu lation had increased 65, the consumption of coffee and tea 75, of malt, spirits, &c. 55 per cent., or nearly in the ratio of the increase of the population ; but crime had increased 400 per cent., or more than six times the increase of popula tion and luxuries—(Hear, hear)—and of that increase 81 per cent. was composed of juvenile offenders, or nearly four fifths of the whole.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore their Lord ships would see that this came to be a serious matter, and they ought earnestly to consider how they were to deal with them. It had been said that as long as receivers of stolen goods existed, juvenile crimes could not be arrested. But the system he proposed, by taking away his allies from him, by attracting his affections and training him to habits of regular industry, would deprive the receiver or " fence," as he was called, of those on whom he .depended; and when these reclaimed and industrious persons "ere once more re stored to society, they would be able, from their knowledge, to point out the dens where these receivers fztrked—to drag them into the light of day, and thus put down An atrocious traffic. He thought that was an answer to the objection. He could not conceive anything more awful than that chil dren of nine or ten years of age should be sent to gaol, and be compelled to associate with those who had, as it were, graduated in crime, and thus be exposed to contamination of the worst description. Of all the crimes the country could possibly commit this was the greatest, the most heinous. The Noble Lord, after some fart her observations, concluded by expressing a hope that the .House would consider the resolutions he then moved, and that if they found it too late to agree with them this session, that at all events they would take themlinto consideration, with a view to practical measures, at an early period of next session. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said his Noble and Learned Friend had certainly not, in his opinion, overstated the importance of the subject to whick he had called the attention of the House, and, unfortunately, also, he had not overstated the difficulties by which the subject was sur rounded. During the time that he had been , in power, in f common with those who took part in the esinalleistmraatni°yndso public affairs, he frequently called attention to he never saw that remedy suggested which fects of the system, and many were thermeodoilaopopolfiiedde,obtulyt of r eformation evidently the duty of all legislation to be said to have attained that statebse obtain ed. The efforts in for exp the right direction , however, were not useless, w fo h r ie t h h , ey a l t aid the foundation a r period, could be safely employed.. With respect f t u o t t u h e e resolutions of his Noble and Learned Friend—resolu tions which embodied his opinions, and the result of his ex perience, there was much in them that he approved , and much that had his full concurrence ; but at the same time he could not avoid stating that there were some expressions in them not befitting the adoption of their Lord ships. The two first resolutions referred to the subject of classification and the importance of enforcing it. His objection. was nut to the importance of classification, but was founded on the impossibility of attaining a perfect system of classifi cation by any other mode than by the classification from the separate confinement of each prisoner. All ex periments, and the calculations founded on those experi ments, showed that the system of separate confinement, regulated so as to fall short of anything like cruelty, under properly constituted authorities, was the safest, most humane, and not the least economical for the public.—(Hear, hear.) If they carried out a system of classification in accordance with the wishes of the Noble and Learned Lord, how was it to be? They could not, if they desired to promote his views, put persons who committed the same crime together, for then they would have an association of the most aban doned characters and the worst offenders, a classification of age would be subject to every variety of criminality. They might have, it was true, a classification of sexes, but then the Noble Lord's object would be far, indeed, from being gained. Classification on any other principle than that of separate confinement must be a bad one. In the one or two model prisons where it was established, it had not only in vited the attention, but commanded the approbation cf foreigners; and throughout fifty or sixty prisons in England means were being adopted for carry ing the system into effect. The system was not uniform as applied to every individual, but it ad. mitted of work being apportioned according to the habits and dispositions of each, as a species of solace to the indus trious, and as a punishment to the idle, but still enforcing the great object of penalty. Some of the Noble and Learned Lord's resclutions were inconsistent with the position laid down in the fourth resolution. The real object of punish ment was to deter from the repetition of crime. Reforma tion, most laudable in itself, applied only to hundreds, but the principle of deterring from the commission of crime was applicable to millions. With respect to assimilating the sys tem in our prisons to that pursued in the prisons of the United States, he regarded it as impracticable, from the dif ference of circumstances and the greater value of labour in the United States. He certainly gave a preference to that portion of the resolution which dwelt on the importance of deterring men from becoming prisoners a second time, and he believed that desideratum was carried out to a great extent in asme prisons, where the despotic system was practised.—(Hear, hear.) The almost total abolition of capital punishment, so revolting to humanity, and asso ciated with the shedding of blood, imposed the ne cessity for inflicting a very different species of punishment, characterised by an amount of severity short of absolute cruelty, yet of sufficient stringency to deter from the com mission of crime. For cases of this description separate im prisonment was peculiarly applicable. He hoped that in the progress of those regulations, which magistrates through out the different counties of England were bound to bring under the consideration of the Secretary of State, who had the power of modifying them, not many years would elapse before the means for adopting separate imprisonment would be provided in all gaols, so that the system might be intro duced into each establishment, and a uniformity of punish ment established for particular classes of offences and offenders. When that uniformity was attained great good evidently could not fail to be the result, and an effectual reformation brought about.—(Hear.) Where the separate system had been adopted, the number of re-commitments was much less than in those gaols where it was not yet in troduced. This was a very striking result of the advantage of separate imprisonment. He assured the Noble and Learned Lord that the subject which he had brought under the consideration of the House was one which had constantly attracted the attention of the Government, and would con tinue to do so until they effected as much benefit as they possibly could. With regard to the dietary provided in gaols, he admitted giving the smallest quantity of food consis tently with the preservation of the health of the prisoners. For the reasons assigned in the course of these observations, he should be under the necessity of moving the previous question, unless the Noble and Learned Lord withdrew his resolutions. After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM and the Mar quis of WESTMINSTER, in explanation, The Earl of CHICHESTER desired to offer a few remarks on the subject generally, and on some of the propositions of the Noble and Learned Lord. He quite agreed that there ought to be a more uniform system of punishment, and greater control vested in the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The want of a controlling power in that office had been long felts and though several recent Acts had extended his control, he hal not yet been armed with authority sufficient, and legislative interference of a still mcre comprehensive character was required. He quite agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord that there ought to be a different system of punishment for the least criminal of the juvedile classes. With regard to the system of sepa rate confinement, it had been adopted under the provisions of a special Act of Parliament after the Legislature and the public had full opportunity for considerinc , the able report on the subject by Mr. Crawford, who had been sent to the United States to make inquiries connected with the working of the system.—(Hear.) He did not see why the separate system should be objected to, particularly when it had been adopted, after many able and judicious re ports on its efficiency in causing reformation among pri soners, some of whom were known to be of very bad cha racter. The utility of the system was also supported by the evidence of the prison officers, who had frequently visited them, and by the improvement in the morality of the pri soners. He did not at all understand what the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) meant by classification in one of his resolutions, and should say that if it tended to allow prisoners to associate together, that nothing could be more mischievous, as had been long since proved, and as had been long since condemned. The experience of the last ten years in the case of separate confinement, should, he thought, serve as a sufficient proof in favour of its con tinuance, particularly as economy and reformation were materially advanced by it.—( Hear, hear.) Were their Lordships to refer to the penal colonies, it would be found that those prisoners who had undergone the separate system had turned out to be the most useful members of society, and the b-st promoters of morality. The Bishop of OXFORD said that he felt it his duty to make some few remarks on the opinions of the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham) relative to Reading gaol. lie was sorry to say that the Noble Lord, unintentionally, he felt assured, misrepresented the state of Reading gaol, for the magistrates a , d chaplain who visit it give the strongest proof that the separate system carried on there tends more to deter men from committing crime than any other system practised throughout England. He did not at the same time mean to say that the influence of a few weeks in that prison would have the desired effect, but he kaew, from the best authority, that from three to six months always had the effect of reforming prisoners, and that there was a re• duction of from 30 to 20 per cent. since the separate system was introduced. He agreed with the Noble Lord that, wherever the dietary amounted to the character of luxury, it should be cut down, but did not think that it prevailed in Reading gaol. The Earl of HARROWBY said that he was well ac quainted with Pentonville Prison, and also the prison in Staffordshire, and was pleased to say that there was not more than one in twenty committed since the introduction of the separate system, and that there was not one in stance of mental aberration, and also that religious instruc tion had a most beneficial influence on the prisoners. The Noble Marquis had expressed himself so clearly and dis tinctly in favour of this system, that he was quite sure it would strengthen the hands of its friends all over the country, and l-ad to its introduction in qua e r e t n ers ad w op h t e e r d. e, but b for that encouragement , it would not have L or d BROUGHAM replied , and after commenting wi▪ th in separate cells, concluded by stating some severity upon the practice of confining untried n b t e rie s d h p ou ri l s d on n e o rs t r e eso u lu es ti t o io n n s, i w n h t i b ▪ ch e trouble their Lordships to divide upon he begged leave to withdraw, and leave q hands of the Government. The resolutions were then withdrawn. theL Land dr the th third time and The The audit of Railway passed.RAlL WAY ACCOUNTS. from and or- --ONTEAGLE, was read a BcfrapinoiestAillc:o,Lausnrt:saitdlaills,ecaofntedrtiamef.ew words Their Lordships th,n o'clock. adjourned at a Quarter to Nine HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 6. POOR-LAW (IRELAND) RILL. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) Sir ROBERT FERGUSON then moved the follow. ing clause:—" And whereas by an Act passed in th e tenth year of the reign of her present Majesty, intituled, ' An Act to amend the Law relating to the Valuation of rateable Property in Ireland,' it is provided that every rate for the relief of the destitute poor in every union which shall be made after thirty days from the time when the board of guardians shall have received the valuation et aii the telyuhuzds comprised in tin Pion, THE- UN, LONDON, shall ke made according to such valuation, and it 18 expedient to amend the said provision ; be ft therefore enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act, so soon as t h e g uardian s of any e cion shall have received from the Commissioners of I d ua :ion the valuation of all the townlands situate in an elector 1 division of such union, all rates thereafter y to be made o. -I such electoral division shall be made ac cording to such valuation, until the same be revised, as in the said Act is crovided, and thereafter acccording to ised from time to time: provided s uch valuation as re , ' that all salaries, estaNisbment charges, and other sums payable by the union and chargeable on the several electoral div:sions, according to the net annual value of the property situate therein respectively, shall be chargeable on such electoral divisions according to the net annual value of the rate able property therein, as set forth in the rates last made on such electoral divisions, previous to the time when the board of guardians received from the Commissioners of Valuation the valuation of all the townlands situate in any of the electoral divisions as aforesaid, until the guardians shall have received the valuation of all the electoral divisions in the union, and no longer." Sir W. SOMERVILLE said there could be no doubt that the bringing into operation a speedy valuation was most desirable, but he thought the addition of this clause would lead to considerable embarrassment and confusion. He hoped, therefore, he would not press it. Sir R. FERGUSON consented to withdraw the clause. Mr. BATESON moved to add the following proviso to clause A:—" Provided also, that where any person chargeable to any electoral division shall have received relief, and shall cease to be relieved, and shall thereafter, within the period of twelve months, again begin to receive relief, such last-mentioned relief shall be chargeable on the electoral division to which such person was in the first instance chargeable."—The proviso was agreed to. Mr. FAGAN moved to add the following proviso to clause A :—" Provided always, that the cost for the relief of destitute poor who shall not have resided in the union where such relief is given for the last three years next previous to receiving such relief, shall be charged and chargeable according to the provisions of an Act passed in the tenth year of her present Majesty, intitultd An Act to make turthcr provision for the relief of the desti tute poor in Ireland."' After a brief desultory discussion the proviso was agreed to. The report was then agreed to, and the Bill (entered to be read a third time SU on Monday. PPLY. Lord J. RUSSELL intimated that he proposed to take the Committee of Supply on Thursday next. The House then adjourned till Five o'clock. The House resumed at Five o'clock. PETITIONS. Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition against the endowment of Roman Catholic clergymen. Mr. SPOONER presented a number of petitions in favour of the Protection of Women Bill. Mr. COWAN presented a petition from Edinburgh, praying that the Public Health Bill for Scotland may be delayed till next session. An Ilox. MEMBER presented three petitions in m places in Lincolnshire complaining of agricultural dis tress, and praying for a moderate protective duty. Mr. DISRAELI presented a petition from a number of shopkeepers in Netherby, in the West Riding, com plaining of the failure of free-trade, and suggesting re medies.—(Hear.) ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. The House at its rising was ordered to stand adjourned till Monday. THE SCOTCH BILLS. Mr. HUME inquired if it was finally settled that the Scotch Bills were to comp on cu Monday. If so it would seem that the Government cared little for the opinion of the Scotch Members, who generally opposed the Bill, or for the vast number of petitions which the people of Scotland had pi titioned against the measures. The Scotch Members agreed in opinion that the Bills should be postponed until another session. Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the Government in tended to take the Bills on Monday. They should then see if the statement of the Hon. Gentleman was c,rrect, that the majority of the Scotch Members were averse to proceeding with the Bills this session. Mr. HUME said but a small number of the Scotch Members were iu town, and they would be sitting on Committees during the early part of Monday. The Government were acting most unfairly towards them. Mr. M'NEILL could not help stigmatizing the way in which these Bills had been dealt with. It appeared that the Government considered these Bills so urgently important that they were determined to put them upon the people of Scotland whether they would have them or not, and would not even allow them to be heard upon them ; and they arrived at this late period of the session without having had an op portunity of discussing the merits of the Bills, except after midnight, Surely it they were so urgent the people of Scotland had a right to be heard upon them. And now they were to be discussed at a forenoon sitting, when many of the Scotch Members had left town. Surely the Government ought to defer to the wishes of the people of Scotland, and postpone the Bills until another session. Mr. DUNCAN said, it was remarked last night that at the recent meeting of Scotch Members no decision was come to with respect to these Bills. Now he could show that out of 16 five or.ly voted against the postpone ment of the Marriage Bill, and all save two voted against proceeding with the Health of Towns Bill. A vast number of petitions had been presented against the Bills, and scarcely any in their favour. He had not received a single letter or petition in favour of the Mils, whilst he had received hundreds praying for delay. That being the case, he should consider it his duty to oppose the measures in every stage. Mr. ELLICE, jun., said he was bound to say that all the petitions he had received from his constituents were against the Bills, but after the best consideration which he could give to the Bills, he was unable to come to the same conclusion as his constituents. He had sent down to them a few of the reasons which had induced him to look favourably upon the Bills, but ,as yet he had received no rejoinder. It. was his firm opinion that the petitions had been got up in the way that petitions usually were—(Hear, hear) —that the parties signing them were really unacquainted with the nature of the measures. The Registration Bill would be a most valuable improvement of the present law, and it was most disgraceful that such a measure had not been introduced and passed long ago.—(Hear, hear.) The Police Bill and the Health of Towns Bill were also most valuable and important measures, and he trusted that the Government would not give way to any representations which were made against them, seeing that they would confer a great benefit upon all classes of the community in Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) The LORD ADVOCATE said the Registration Bill had already passed the House of Lords twice, and ho should be able to show that it was of the greatest possible importance to Scotland. He was per fectly aware of the number of petitions which had been presented to the House against the Bill, but the arguments which they contained were insignificant, and were, in point of fact, not against the measure generally, but against one or two of the clauses. Mr. COWAN said he was perfectly free to give his vote either way, but, after mature consideration, he was not prepared to support the Registration Bill with out material alteration. He was surprised to see the in difference with which petitions from all parts of Scot land had been treated—(Hear, hear)—and he could assure the House that they were not only genuine, but contained very earnest appeals against these Bills. In answer to a question from Mr. E. B. ROCHE, who requested that Mr. Monckton Milnes would postpone his motion, Mr. MONCKTON MILNES said, that his motion had been upon the paper for many months, and he felt, therefore, not inclined to accede to the request. Mr. ROCHE endeavoured to explain that he spoke for a large portion of the constituency of Ireland, although he could not profess himself to be their representative. The order of the day as respected Mr. Milnes' motion was then agreed to. THE PUBLIC RECORDS. Mr. HOPE inquired whether her Majesty's Govern ment had taken steps to procure a suitable receptacle for the public records which are now deposited in the Chapter-house of Westminster Abbey, and the Norman Chapel in the White Tower, to the great detriment of those very interesting and important monuments. The CLIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that he believed every means necessary for their due custody had been taken. THE DANISH BLOCKADE. Mr. SANDARS, In accordance with his notice, begged to ask the Noble Lord the Secretary fur Foreign Affairs if it he a fact, as is publicly stated, that the British Consuls (or Vice-Consuls), Mr. Petersen, of Stettin, and Mr. Krause, of Swinemunde, have been dismissed from their respective offices, and, as is alleged, for having certified to facts in certain documents de claring the inefficiency of the Danish blockade. He did not see the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department in his place, and was therefore somewhat at a loss to know to whom to put his question. Lord J. RUSSELL said that his Noble Friend would be in the House on Monday, when, no doubt, he would be able to give a sufficient reply to the question. STATE OF THE' POOR OF IRELAND. Mr. SLANEY gave notice that early in next session he should revive his motion for an unpaid Commission to report on the state of the poor population of Ireland. PROTECTION: Mr. HERRIES gave notice that on the motion for the Committee of Supply he should draw the attention of the House to the advisability, if not to the necessity, of imposing a fixed duty upon the importation of corn. AFFAIRS OF HUNGARY. Mr. HUME had given notice to the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that he should ask him a question as to how our relations with Austria now stood, and on the treaty ofViessisa. The Noble Lord, however, not being then in his place he would take leave to put the question to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. He wanted to know whether the changes that were now going on in Europe, or the interference of Russia in the affairs of Hungary, were likely to put an end to the Treaty of Vienna. In what situation was this country to consider itself in regard to these changes? It was of vast importance to know how the country stood in the matter. We had been put to a good deal of expense in bringing about the treaty, it seemed now unnecessarily, and now that we ought to reap the profit of the outlay it appeared that it was to be snatched from us.—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL in reply to the question of the Ron. Gentleman said, as he understood the matter, there had been no interference whatever with the Treaty Of Vienna, in our relations and c laims established o b t y Aitu,iasnntroi Government was it at all interfered with by w hat was now taking . place on t h e continent.—(Hear, hear.) The li o t v o er :s m si e s n t t th h era had i b n ee s n up c p al r l e e s d sin by g the the ?Lioavurerrneginueonnt SAT:I7IIDAY VENING, JULY 7, 1846, i n Hungary.—(Hear, hear.) That was the explanation which had passed between our Government and the Government of Austria, Russia did not intend in any other way to interfere with the affairs of Europe, nor would their assistance to Austria disturb the treaty of Vienna.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. HUME observed, that it was alleged that a cer tain agreement had been entered into between Prussia and Austria, by which certain portio•as of Europe would be conceded to Russia, which arrangement would greatly interfere with the Treaty of Vienna. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware that any such agreement had been made or was eve n contemplated. Mr. OSBORNE—WiII the Noble Lord state the grounds for his calling this an iny,urrection in Hungary? Lord J. RUSSELL—That is hardly a question that I can be called upon to answer. Mr. OSBORNE—Then I beg to give the Noble Lord notice that I will take an early opportunity of bringing the subject under his consideration. The subject then dropped. MARRIAGES (SCOTLAND) BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the order of the day relating to this Bill be postponed till Monday. Mr. F. MACKENZIE moved as an amendment, that it be postponed till this day three months. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment ..• ... 60 enabled under it to acquire a perpetuity to the prejudice of the lessor. Then came the Rate-in-Aid Bill of the present session, which he denounced as unjust and impolitic in the highest degree, and as regarded the Constitution - of the Irish Poor-law Board, he belioved they pursued a course of nen duct which in many instances was far from justifiable. He also complained of the carelessness evinced by the Govern ment in the present year, in not rescuing the lives of so many unhappy people, who had perished of famine, in the Southern and Western districts. It did appear to him that the measures taken by her Majesty's Government with refer ence to the prevention of starvation in Ireland, were con demned even by Sir Charles Trevelyan. As regarded the western districts the proper measures had not been taken even now.—( Hear, hear.) He was authorised in stating this from what had fallen from Mr. Osborne. The Ho nourable Member read a communication of this gentle man, on the subject, to the Times, in support of his assertion. And further, with reference to the poor, a case of mis management had been made out against the Government by the Commissioners themselves. Details of misery never ex ceeded had been laid before the House in reference to the western districts in Ireland, but nothing had been done by the Executive Government. Ireland was prostrate by a visi tation of the Almighty, and no efficient effort had yet been made to restore her. It was true they bad expended their treasure, but not wisely, and they would. ultimately experi ence the evils of their want of foresight.—(Hear, hear.) For these reasons, he felt constrained to vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire. Mr. HUME said, that the Government had been censured by the Honourable Gentleman fur their administration of Irish affairs, but he thought that they were not to be blamed, for greater anxiety, or a greater amount of labour, or more attentive consideration had never been bestowed by the Ministry upon any subject. If thst session were rightly characterised, it might justly be cleignated as one ad journed debate upon the affairs of Ireland.—(Hear.) He did not absolve the local authorities in Ireland from blame. Things would have taken a different course in that country, if they had efficiently aided the measures of the Legislature. He could not think that Government in this instance was liable to the censure of the Honourable Member. With re gard to the Labour-rate Bill, he could not think that there was any ground to blame the Government. With regard to the poor-law, that might not have been so efficient, but it was the House, and not the Government that were to be blamed, it indeed blame attached to any one for the provi sions of that measure. With regard to the Rate-in-Aid Bill he looked upon it as a means of promoting industry.— ( Hear, hear.) He, therefore, thought the Hon. Gentleman was not fortunate in his choice of complaints. He did not think he had made out any case whatever, and he should, therefore, leave the subject. He certainly had intended to move an amendment, but when he considered the object of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, namely, the re moval of the Ministry, and the nature of his statements, that he had not suggested any new course of government, except with regard to free-trade, which he did not consider to be the cause of distress, and that he had not suggested who were to succeed if the Administration were removed, and the consequences which would follow such removal, under such circumstances he had thought it right and fair, after considering the answer of Government, not to bring forward any amendment or to support the motion. (Hear, hear.) He was anxious to state his views of the cause of the distress which existed. He thought the grounds selected by the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire to found his motion were not the most happy chosen ; but still he had made out a case which ought to arrest the attention of every thinking man. The mere statement that the able-bodied paupers in this country had increased from 1846 to 1848 by 74,000, required most serious reflec tion. It was true the number had decreased since, but not to anything like a satisfactory extent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had reported an improvement in individual towns without which they would have been in a condition of the greatest distress. But how would that relieve the distress in the agricultural districts.—(Hear, hear.) The cause to which he attributed the distress of the country was excessive and unequal taxation. They had all the expenses of a war establishment in time of peace. Unless that was remedied every panacea would fail. It might excite a smile to look back to compare the revenue raised in former times with that expended at the present day. It was still increasing, and it was utterly impossible, notwithstanding the cheapness of provisions, that our industry could compete with the whole world under such a pressure of taxation. It was quite im possible that they could keep up this expenditure.—( Hear, hear.) The only means by which they could benefit the country and remove distress, was by reducing their esta blishments, lessening their expenses, and leaving more in the pockets of every class to benefit themselves.—(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the Government knew the state of the working and industrial classes generally. A very large portion of those who were formerly in ease were now very differently situated. It was utterly impossible to continue that drain upon the purse of every man. From an analysis he had prepared of the sources of revenue, he had arrived at the conclusion that the middle classes were oppressed and the rich let off.—(Hear, hear.) The taxation was utterly unequal, and bore very heavily on the poor man in comparison with the taxation which the rich man had to pay. The increase of taxation, and also the inequality of taxation, could be fairly stated to be the cause of the distress , d sta eof the country. When he went back to the year 1817, he found chat from that year up to 1827 the expenditure averaged about fifty-three mil lions, and the income about fifty-five millions, showing that during that ten years the excess of the income over the ex penditure averaged about two millions per annum. In 1792 the expenditure was fifteen million., of which nine millions formed the interest of the debt. When, therwore, he looked at their p! esent expenditure, no man could say for a moment that he was in error in attributing their present distressed state to the over-taxation of the country. If lion. Gentle men opposite were anxious to improve the condition of the agricultural population, they ought to join with him in re ducing the expenditure, and not only in reducing the expen diture, but in making the taxation fall equally upon all classes. While the removal of some restrictions had done good, tkey had not gone far enough, taking the great evil of the country to be excessive taxation, and on that ground he hoped the time was not far distant when they would devote their attention to bringing in proper measures. He would conclude by reiterating the sentiment he had commenceed with—that but for free trade they could not have got over the difficulties which the country had been subject to, and which it was incumbent on them to meet.— (Hear, near.) The Earl of MARCH said he would confine himself to that part of the subject which related to agriculture. When the Hon. Member Cllr. Hume) had attributed so much injury to the inequality of taxation, he ( the Earl of March) had a right to ask that Hon. Member how it was that he had not supported the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Lisraeli) in the early part of the session, for revising the taxation of the country, on the ground of its inequality ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl then alluded to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the first night of the debate, and while he complimented him on the ability with which he had dealt with an immense mass of figures, he must at the same time observe that he placed little value on the letters which the Right Hon. Gentleman had read to them, for nothing could be easier than for him (the Earl of March) to select farmers in the county of Sussex, for instance, who would unhesitatingly write to him that nothing but protec tion would bring back a state of prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) He altogether denied that the prices of agricultural produce which had been quoted, and the years selected by the Right Hon. Gentleman for his quotations, gave anything like an adequate idea of the state of the agricultural interest. He contended that the free-trade system had been the cause of the ruin which had befallen the landed interest. Had the sliding scale been retained, it could have adjusted itself to the change of seasons, and to the necessities of the country, but, instead of that principle being maintained, they had abolished that protection which the farmer was entitled to, and their present condition showed the consequences of that measure. Sir R. PEEL then rose, and spoke as follows : —Mr. Speaker,—Sir, Ido not propose to enter at any length—if indeed at all—into those considerations of a purely political nature, which are naturally raised by the questions brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bucks. I should find it wholly out of my power to do justice to those considerations in the period during which I can fairly expect the House to listen to me with patience. To discuss the question of Ireland—of the colonial, of the foreign policy of this country—in one speech, must, if any attempt were really made to do justice to these various topics, absorb so much of the time of the House, that little time would be left for the discussion of that which I consider to be the main point at issue this night, namely—Shall we displace her Majesty's Government for the purpose of subverting the commercial policy upon which they have acted 2 (Cheers, and cries of " Hear, hear.") Since the accession of the Ire sent Government to power I have felt it to be my duty to give the great majority of the measures which they have introduced my cordial support. I have made allow ances for the great difficulties with which they have had to contend—(Cheers)—the difficulties arising out of commercial convulsions, famine in Ireland. and the preys lent moral and social revolution by which the peace of Europe and the tranquillity of individual states have been disturbed.—(Hear, hear.) I have thought it was for the public interest that the energy and power of the Executive Government of this country during such a crisis should not be impaired by factious or by captious opposition.—(Loud cheers.) At the same time, Sir, I wish it to be distinctly understood, that all that I mean to imply by the vote which I shall give this night is this, that I cordially approve of the general principles of commercial policy by which her Ma jesty's Government have been guided, and that I will not consent to a motion, the direct and avowed object, or, at all events, the main object, of which is to censure them for their adherence to those principles of commercial policy which I have mentioned, and to substitute in their place some other and different economic principles. -- Hear, hear.) Sir, the course which I propose to pursue is thie—to examine the grounds on which the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire has impugned the commercial policy which has been now acted upon for some years.—(Hear.) I shall then propose to consider whether or no that new— or, at least, that different principle of economic policy, which the Honourable Gentleman proposes to adopt has any foundation in reason, and whether it would contri bute to the welfare and prosperity of the country. In ex amining the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, I will take that course which appears to me to be by far the best—by far the most likely to conduce to the elucidation of truth— namely, to state his arguments, each separately, as nearly as I can, in the words in which it was conveyed, and then to give that which appears to me to be the answer to it.— ( Hear.) And, Sir, were that the course generally pursued— (Cheers)—a course substituting the plain, simple test of rea son for vague declamation—(Cheers)—l think, on the whole, that it would more conduce than the method now so much in vogue to the satisfactory elucidation of the matters with which this House has to deal.—(Continued cheers.) Sir, I understand the Hon. Gentleman to impeach the commercial policy which has been for some time acted upon, and to at tribute a great part of the suffering under which it is ad mitted that some interests in this country and some portions of this country are now labouring to that commercial policy. But I was struck—l confess it—by one admission of the Hon. Gentleman at the commencement of his speech; and I owe an acknowledgment which I willingly pay him for that admission. Sir, the Honourable Gentleman was describing the state of the Government of the country when the Noble Lord succeeded to office. Ha then made this admission with respect to the position of the country, and the European in. fluence of the Goverment of 1846—he said that Europe was then in a state of unequalled tranquillity—that there was great confidence reposed in her Majesty's Government— that if troubles arose abroad there was a ready reference to the authority of the British Government, and a willi ng acquiescence in its decision, whatever it might be, for the solution of those difficulties. The Hon. Gentleman said, morever, that Ireland was in a state of comparative pros perity, that the agricultural interest here was contented, and looked forward with hope to the future. He said, too, that the greatest export trade which this country had ever carried on had existed in the course of the year 18 in, and that the present Government found, on its accession to office, a sur plus of between three and four millions. Well, then, if that were the case—if all interests were so prosperous —if such was the condition of our finance—if such was the condition of our export trade—l ask this question—what were the prin ciples of commercial policy which had been pursued for some time previously ?—(Loud cheers.) I found that in 1841 there was a deficit of 2,500,0001, la the preceding Against it ... 136 Majority Mr. FORBES complained of the mode in which the Go vernment sated in respect to these two Bills, and moved that the House do then adjourn. The hour proposed on Monday for the consideration of these Bills was the most inconve nient one for the Scotch Members. Lord J. RUSSELL could hardly believe that such objec tions would have been raised to his proposition after having conceded to the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire the only two nights they had this week for Government business.— ( Hear, hear.) It was the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to propose an advance of money to a railway company for the west of Ireland at five o'clock on Monday, as it was advisable, from the intense degree of distress in that part of the country, that no furth er ti me s h ou ld b e lost in affording this relief. Under these circumstances he felt himself obliged to adhere to his proposition respecting the Scotch Bills, unless it was the general wish of the House to proceed with them then, instead of the adjourned debate.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI expressed his great surprise at the course taken by some of the Scotch Members on the present occa sion. —(Hear, hear.) Considering the late period of the ses sion, and the inconvenience of having an adjourned debate of this nature still pending, he hoped that the Hon. Members would not press the opposition any further against the gene ral feeling of the House... Mr. MACKENZIE said that they had never had a discus. sion in this House upon the principle of these Bills. He thought that the Scotch Members were fully justified in their objections to the course proposed by the Government. Why, he asked, did not the Government select twelve o'clock on Monday for proposing the grant of money for the Irish rail way, instead of fixing the discussion upon two Scotch Bills at that hour, when it was most inconvenient for Scotch Mem bers to attend? Sir R. PEEL said that he had a strong desire to express his sentiments in regard to the m.tion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and he had come down to the House this evening for that purpose. His experience went to show that it was usual to proceed fry m night to night with a❑ ad journed debate (all Hon. Members who had business on the paper giving way for it), in order that they might have the advantage of a continuous discussion, as the more interrup tion that was given to such a proceeding the less were the public satisfied. He thought that, considering the conces sions made by the Noble Lord in relation to the subject of the adjourned debate, the opposition of the Scotch Members was not quite fair. Mr. ELLIOT wished the public to understand that the opposition on the present occasion was only confined to a few of the Scotch Members on the other side of the House. The Earl of LINCOLN thought the taunt thrown out by the Hon. Member for Roxburghshire came badly from him considering the office which he held in connexion with the Government. He denied that the opposition was confined to the one side of the House—it was equally strong on the other side. He thought that the Scotch Members had a tight to ask the Noble Lord to postpone the consideration of these Bills to some more convenient day than the one named. Mr. HASTIE said that though he did not approve of these Bills, he wished the House to understand that the Hon. Member for Peebleshire did not,.on the present occa sion, represet t the whole of the Scotch-Members. Mr. HUME was opposed to tne mode in which the Go vernment were proceeding in respect to these Bills, which were pressed forward against the wishes of the people of Scotland, expressed through their petitions. He was sur prised that the state of the Exchequer at present, when there was not a penny in it, was not sufficient to deter the Go vernment incurring the heavy expense which the carrying out the details of these Bills would necessarily entail upon the country. As to there being a surplus in hand, that was mere nonsense. Let the House but look at the decrease of 400,0001. in the last quarter. ( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Mr. FORBES ultimately withdrew his amendment. After a short discussion both the Bills referred to were postponed to twelve o'clock on Monday. THE STATE OF THE NATION. The order of the day in reference to the adjourned debate on the state of the nation having been read. Mr. SLANEY resumed the debate, and said that, although all his interests were identified with the land, he could not concur in the view taken of the subject by the Hon. Mem ber for Buckinghamshire. He contended that, in looking at the distress which pressed on this country, the Hon. Gentle • man was bound to take into consideration the famine that had occurred in Ireland. The great object of the Honourable Gentleman seemed to be, a desire to raise the price of food to the people, and also the trice of llnd. But he was mistaken if he thought he could go back to the old system of the corn laws.—(Hear.) If rents were something less than they were, they should consider that they got all those things which were the subject of expenditure at a much lower rate than they did formerly. It was said by gentlemen opposite, that the working people advanced in an equal degree with the other classes of society. Teat he denied, it appeared, from the reports of various (3,-mtnissions which examined the subject that the reverse was the case, and that they were in a very depressed state. In fact, they were neglected in mind, body, and estate. If they were to pay greater atten tion to the condition of the working classes, they would create a new source of demand for the home market. A proof that the working people were not progressing like the other classes, was that crime had increased three times as fast as the population. Ttiey had also fallen in the en joyments of the comforts of lite. The greatest cost to the landed proprietors was the cest of crime. I n 1836 a Com mission was appointed toinquire into the cost of the con stabulary. It appeared that the cost of c r i me i n Li verpoo l was 700,000/. a year. Liverpool was the sixty-fourth part of the rated amount of the entire kingdom. He would take the entire cost of crime in that rati o , an d wou ld state that the cost of crime throughout England and Wales amounted to 11,.00,0001. Then the next item was the pocrferate, which amounted to 5,200,u00/. a year. The evils of the poor arose from neglect of their education and to sanitary regulations. Then he estimated the amount less l, b than en t s,loo,oool. berewes e Tbhee considered e c r o e s d t class from illness, which might ot e at c ve, o boo s t t hie of fceor c s cr i me—b,`2oo,oool. m n h opwia a lhei v da e mti b nti e ltl e aic n olonmstas tn prevented hwdeaaswiolaorlktfl by hg sanitary . regulations. Thus they :o 'o ,o o o o o l f . . for f . .r the th e upon these items for Scotla . nd and Ireland as equal to the half of this amount, or 13,650,0004 Then there was ten millions expended in cp h eo a pl d ipcee l r l t ,O eg r et .O bv, o e,o o p l ue . ider fo e i tari t ; l 4 : l gross total of . . 51,000,000 . implored spirits,t reallyh considerldoegpirvetsreged, a this here s w u e b r j e e c ti t ,f fifty millionsd t h the landedef money interest eney w which they might gradually diminish, and thereby relieve that in terest from many heavy burdens, by improving the condi tion of the working classes. He felt obliged to oppose the motion of the Hon. Member, because it would have the effect of removing the present Government from office, and which possessed his confidence, and that the object was also to raise the price of food by putting a duty on corn. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said he would teuch upon this subje t, as it referred to Ireland, which was now as great a difficulty as it had ever been. He contended that the evils of Ireland were greatly aggravated by the conduct and policy pursued by the Government, and that the Irish difficulty was rather increased than diminished by that policy. True, they were surrounded by no ordinary diffi culties when they came into office, but they had advantages such as no other Government had, in almost entire disap pearance of party feeling. and the existence of an anxiety on all sides to lay aside all differences for the sake of the country. There was a general disposition in Ireland to give the Noble Lord at the head of the G overn m en t every f ac ili ty to carry out his intentions, aud to forget all party feeling, in order to assist him in every way. The Land Commissioners, of whom he had the honour to be one, called attenti on i n 1835 to the wretched condition of the labouring classes, and various suggestions for improvement were given. That was the condition of Ireland when the free-trade measures were introduced; and, without entering into a oiecussion on that great subject, he might say that Ireland had to suffer and near the brunt of that policy.—(Hear, hear.) The interests of Ireland, he contended, were, on that occasion, sacrificed to the manufacturers of England; and in answer to what was said of the famine accelerating the abolition of the corn-laws, a speech of the late Lord George Ben inck, who quoted the opinion of the Duke of Wellington, proved that the sliding scale would have answered every purpose required, without repealing the corn laws altogether. Such was the condition of Ireland in 1816. When the Noble Lord . had almost uncont ro ll e d power to remedy , the Irish social system, he was not without receiving warn ing on the subject, and that too from some of the most practical menal Ireland. O n th e 27 t h of J uly, 1846, L or d Clancarty called attention in the House of Lords to the state of Ireland, and on the 31st of the same month, shortly after the Ministers came into office, Lord Monteagle moved an address to the Crown to the same effect. Previous to this a measure was passed by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, for the relief of distress in Ireland, under which 120,000/. was ex pended, 60,000/. of which was since paid back, and by means of which the greatest good was done. But the pre sent Government, in the following year, namely, in 1846, when they came into office, passed the Relief Act, under which so many enormous abuses were committed. Under the circumstances it was quite impossible it could be otherwise. It was a costly experiment for the country, having cost 4,848,2i5/., one of which would have been sufficient under a proper management ; besides introduci ng a sys t em of de moralisation which they had so often since reason to deplore. Many remonstrances were made, and his Hon. Friend the Memb er f or the county Limerick, who had not . then a seat in that House, called the attention of the Irish Government to the subj ec t. , or d B es b oroug h. t h en Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, was in favour of reproductive works, but he was overruled for a time, until the celebrated letter of Mr. Labouchere was published. That, however, came too late, for it was then found impossible to discontinue the men from the public works. A series of resolutionswasthperessyesntteemd to the Noble Lord at the head of the Gov ernment l ast year, signed by almost all the Peers and Common ers i n Ireland,' but they had no effect. They protested against of out-door relief, on the ground that it would interfere with the ordinary agricultural pursuits, bet in vain. Apart, how ever, from those resources for the relief of the poor, they in troduced cruee Bills in respect to the property of Ireland. He had no hesitation in saying that he approved of the ob jects of those measures, but he condemned the hasty manner and want of forethought and judgment wLich characterised their introduction. Last session a measure was brought for ward respecting the condition of the landlord and tenant in Ireland, and though extremely desirable, it was most inju rious to leave it iu a state of doubt. Then another respect ing the conversion of leases for lives,into leases of perpetuity, and it did not pass as yet, nor would it probably during the present session. It was drawn up by an Hon. and Learned, Friend of his, but was now very much altered. The Encum bered Estates Bill was sent to the House of Lords, and was there much altered also, so that doubt and hesi tation characterised all the measures which were brought forward in respect to Ireland.—(Hear. hear.) He next denounced a Bill, called the Estates Leasing Bill, by the 18i1i dame of which a peon haying a deriyatin lutorot was year, in 1840, you had adopted the system of im which ought to lie derived from gloves to the smuggler, and posing additional duties on our imports-you had im- to permit lace and embroidery to be sent into this country posed an addition of 5 per cent. upon all existing under circumstances which no vigilance can control; or is duties on the import of raw material, upon articles of it not the wiser plan to facilitate the legal import by lower food, and, indeed, upon everything which constitutes the ing the duties, and enabling the trader here to know at any import trade of the country. I find that that addition, so rate the nature and extent of the evil he has to contend with? placed upon imports, had produced no corresponding aug- -(Ch eers .) L et us take t h e case of foreign manufactures mentation of the revenue-(Cheers)-but directly the re- imported in brass, copper, and cutlery. I have not forgotten verse. I find that, in the case of additions to the assessed the speech of the Hon. Member for Birmingham, in which he taxes-of additions to direct taxation, the anticipations , f the described the state of Birmingham to be snch that the Bit Chancellor of the Exchequer had been realised, while in the minghem manufacturers in brass, copper, cutlery, and but instance of additions to Customs' duties upon imports his an- tons, could not find a sale for their articles ; that their trade ticipations had not been realised. The nominal 5 per cent. was g r e a tly d epresse d , and that the quantity of German and of addition to taxation had produced no 5 per cent. of ad- other foreign cutlery and buttons imported interfered with ditional revenue.-( Hear, hear.) But in 1842 you adopted the Birmingham market. But is it not marvellous that the a different principle. You imposed an income-tax, and you Birmingham manufacturer should be beaten in Birminghata reduced taxation upon all the great articles of subsistence.- by the foreigner, when he can . beat the foreigner in all the ( Hear, and cheers,) You reduced taxation upon raw ma- other , markets of the wor ld ? -(Hear, hear, and a cry o f terials, and upon the food-upon the subsistence of the " No, from Mr. Muntz, we believe.) Being aware of the people. You found prohibitions upon every animal which deep interest which the Hon. Member takes in all that cons constitutes food. You found prohibitions upon meat, cerns Birmingham, and of his general knowledge of the mtie high protection upon corn and heavy duties upon raw ma- nufactures of that town, I was s t ar tl e d b y his declaration , terial. You adopted a different system in 1842. You im- which elicited some cheers, and I said to an Hon. Friend of posed an income- tax, by which 5,000/. was raised. You mine, "Let us know the truth ; let us have an account of all removed the prohibitions upon the import of animals and the metallic articles brought into this country; and in the meat; you reducied the duties upon every article which en same return, also, a statement of the amount of manufactured ters into the subsistence of the people; you greatly reduced articles precisely of the same kind sent out of the country; the protective duties upon corn; you reduced the duties upon and then we shall knew what is the foundation for the asset 555 articles of Customs: and the result was what the tion that the Birmingham cutlers and button-makers cannot' Honourable Gentleman has represented to have been the sell their own goods in their own market."-(Hear, hear.) state of this country in 1846 . -(Cheers.) Now, observe- Well, here is a return which was moved for, and includes agriculturists looking forward with hope, Ireland in a state brass, copper, zinc, &c., manufactures and buttons, and of comparative prosperity, the greatest export trade that lacquered goods. It gives the amount of all these articles ever was known to take place,-all this was, I won't say the imported from abroad. If you tell me a great many other result of, but at least coincident with, that reformation of articles are smuggled in, my answer is -then let us reduce your commercial system. But, then, says the Hon. Gentle- the duty again.-(Hear, hear.) If you tell me this return is man -"In 1846, you adopted a totally new principle, and not a fair return of the total amount of imports, that assets from the introduction of that new principle have resulted tion constitutes anything but an impeachment of the reduce the evil consequences which we deplore in 1848." Now, my tiun of the duty; tor the legitimate conclusion is, that the answer upon that point is this,-in 1846 we adopted no new duty, then, is too high. -(Hear, hear.) If, on the other commercial principle, but we certainly carried further the hand, you say that there is no smuggling, but that this commercial principle which had been adopted and acted return contains a true account of the imports of the articles upon.-(Cheers and counter-cheers.) Sir, I wish to conduct I have referred to, then let us compare the import of this argument as I should conduct any other argument. I these manufactured goods for the last three yore think it is much more respectful to the Hon. Member for with the amount which we sent to other countries Buckinghamshire to submit his arguments and views to the In 1846, 1847, and 1848, the aggregate average amount teat of reason than to adopt any other course- (Hear, hear) of all these imports into England from Germany and ever/ - and I am attempting to conduct the argument precisely other country was worth 102,0001. or 34,0001. a year on O. in the manner in which I should conduct a purely scien- average of the last three years.. Now, if we had exported tific examination into which party feeling did n o t en t er .- on l y 20,0001 . worth, that might be a proof that our ma' (Cheers.) But I adhere to my statement, that in 1846 no nufacture was depressed and interfered with, and that new principle was introduced ; an d I g i ve th e H on. G entle- i t was i mposs ib le for us to contend with these foreign rivals man the fullest opportunity of answering my arguments. in neutral markets. But in the same three years in which What new principle was introduced in 1846 that failed in we imported this 102,0001. worth of metal goods we eV, 1848? Before the end of 1845 th e d ut i es up O n cotton and ported annually to the amount of 4,400,0004 worth 01 wool had been repealed. In 1842 the reduction of duties exactly the same articles; the total aggregate amount of the upon articles of import amount e d t o 1,092,00 W., i n 18 ' 3 to i mports i n the three years being 102,0001. worth ; and - the 411,0001., in 1844 to 458,0001., and in 1845 to 4,511,000/. ; total aggregate amount of the exports for the three year; the total amount of this reduction of taxation to the end of being 13,372,0001. worth, being on the average 4,420,000 4 1845 being 6,582,000/. The articles upon which that reduction worth a year; while only 34,00)4. worth was imported a year' mai uly tookplace were either raw materials, articles of food, or -( Hear.) Now, what must these unfortunate foreigner* articles of subsistence. What new principle of commercial who have not half our skill, or the advantage of half 04 legislation, then, was introduced in 1846 ? The amount of mechanical inventions think, when we denounce them as iii' duties remitted in 1846 was 1,151,000/, and the amount r e - terlopers interfering with our industry for sending bee mitted in the four preceding years 6,581,0001. The articles 34,0001. worth of metal goods in the year, while we feel tie which in 1846 were selected for reduced taxation were these scruple, at the same time in interfering with their domestic, -tallow, timber (being an additional reduction ther e on), manufacture by sending the m a t - t h e same time 4,400,000 n worth.-(Hear, hear.) What a graspi ng , exacting people tre brandy, soap, linseed cake, rape cake, and a grea t man y articles the use of which is important to the agricultural in- must seem to them 1-(Cheers.) Will you tell me then hot terest.-(Hear, hear.) There was, indeed, provision made it is possible that the changes made in the tariff 'either 16 1 for the ultimate repeal of the corn-laws, but that is the 1841, 1845, or 1846-that the free import of raw material*, single instance in respect to which you can say that any dif- and such an import of manufactured goods as I have de`, ferent principleof legislation was adopted in 1846 which had scribed, can be justly made responsible for the manufacturiot not previously been acted upon in 1842, 1 43, 1844, and 1845. distress of this country?-(Cheers.) That is my ansWer -(Hear, hear.) And now observe, with respect to the re- to that part of the speech of the Honourable Gentlernsi t peal of the corn-law, that did not take place until the Ist of which attributes the misfortunes of this country to our he February, 1849-(Hear, hear)-and from necessity, in 1847 ing attempted to contend by free imports with hostile tariffs' you repealed the duties, and the Honourable -(Cheers.) I come now to v i ew t h e second ground on wbisl3. Member for Dorsetshire seconded th e mot i on f or th e Hon. Gentleman impeached our commerc i al policy. s' their repeal. But during nearly th e w h o l e o f 1 848 thi n k h e sa id t h at the average official value of all exports, to you had a duty of about Bs. or 10s, on foreign corn, and, 1845 and 1846, was 133,000,000/., and that the average d,e' consequently, if there have ensued any evil effects from the dared value in those two years was 59,500,0001.; that, SI repeal of the corn-law, you cannot date them from an ea r li er 1848, the official value which signified quantity did not OS' period than the Ist of February, 1849 ; and the protecti on , very far short of the official value in 1845 and 1846, but tha t as long as you thought it expedient t o re t a i n i t, l asted up to t h e d ec l are d value, in 1848, fell by 6,500,000/. ; and amount Ist ofFebruary, 1849.-(Hear, hear.) But it has been said to only 53,000,0001.; and the Hon. Gentleman drew 07 that the tariff has caused comme rc i a l d epression, and that conc l us i on-that the working classes had received 6,500,000 1 ' the principles of tree trade adopted in 1846 or the preceding less, in 1848, than they did before. The Hon. Gentlema n years have created distress in th e country. N ow, it is my a l so i nst i tuted a comparison between four months of 18'1 firm conviction that the principles embodied in that tariff and four months of 1848, He said that there is a deprecis: have not caused any one of the evils which have been tion in cotton goods exported, comparing 1849 with 180 dwelt on-(Hear, hear) - but that, on the contrary, the to the amount of 646,0001., and he added th at consequen til o principles involved in that t ar iff h ave great l y mitigated. those the English workman has b een o bli ged to receive for Ils evils.-(Cheers.) Let us analyz e th e tariff,-and I challenge labour 646 , 00 04 less than in last y ear. I totally deny ti', you to show me in what it is possible that the free trade in- inference which the Honourable Member drew from ths troduced into the tariff can have caused the distress of the cireumstance. I deny, because there was a falling off ' T 1 country.-(Hear, hear.) Let us refer to the official value of the declared value of exports, i n 1848, as compared with the imports into Great Britain in 1848, and compare it with the average decl are d value of those of 1845 and 1846 n„ that of 1846. In the latter year the official value of the the extent of 6.500,0001, that therefore the working class,' imports was 73,000,0001, and the official value of 1848 was received, i n 1848 , 6,500,( , 001. less for their labour t 10" 89,000,0001. Some contend that it is the amount of im- they obtained its 1845 -6.-(Cheers.) It would be • n3e18 11 : ports, without any corresponding amo un t o f exports, c h o l y , i n d eed, i f that were the case; but my consolation 1 which has caused the depression of industry in that nothing of the kind has taken place.-(Cheers 911 ,, this country. Let us, then, analyze these imports, laughter.) First, let me observe, that nothing P can be ru°,,`; and consider of what this tariff co ns i s t s. I d i vide it f all ac i ous than any inference drawn from a falling off in s , into three great branches. First, I take the ar ti c l es o f con- d ec ld red va l ue of manufactures exported. Owing to 00 sumption-the food, the luxuries-th e art i c l es wh i ch the manner i n wh i ch the accounts are prepared, all arguntell, people eat and drink. I next take the raw materials, and drawn from that source must be exceedingly fallack'S next the manufactured goods. Your argument is that the Take the case of cotton manufactures; the official value 2 j, amount of the manufactured goods which under the opera- drawn from the aggregate quantity of the goods exports,/ tion of free trade have been imported into this country without any reference to that most important element value-quality.- (Hear, bear.) If you are to argue tbs, has interfered with domestic industry, and caused many laborious and industrious persons to lose their trade. is below that of another period we have sustained.; because the declared value of manufactures exported a t on: Let us divide the imports of 1848, amounting in value to period 89,000,0001., into the three heads I have referred to-viz., national loss, I will prove to you that this country our, long since to have been completely ruined. - (Ill; articles of consumption, raw materials, and manufacture hear, and laughter.) It would, indeed, be a vi sa goods. The amount in official value of the articles of consumption imported was not less than 32,500,000 L wonderful circumstance if, with our recent impro v e ( Will any man tell me that he grudges the payment of ments in machinery, and with a reduction of the price any one single pound of that money for articles of consump- not cotton alone, but of all the raw materials which ent er lion ?- (Hear, hear.) What have those articles been done into manufactures, there had not been a correspondingsfalu ti j with?-(hear, hear.) They have been imported, they off in the declared value of all manufactured articles.-(L° ° cheers.) The Hon. Member for Bucks was not in Parlialo e s ; a if t Ia recollect c e o a l r l e l ice: aright, period, towards when ard a s t the e controversyconclusion hisw i with r r y e : P a :, l4 d ; have been paid tor, and they have been eaten by some one or other.-(Loud cheers.) Can you deny any one of these three propositions, that the articles in question have been speech the other night -" Nunc quid em this very question.-(A laugh.) The Hon. Member PS I imported, paid for, and consumed ?-(Hear, hear.) And civitas moritur ;" now I Want to show that this is an old dog t how paid for? By gold, I suppose I shall be told.-( Hear, gut em novo quodam 110 ;•, hear.) It had been argued that if you permit these free ease-(Laughter) -and I undertake to prove that it nun °- imports there will be a great derangement of the currency; that the foreigner will not take o ur manu f actured goods in former periods, affli cted the country under a much more s g; return, but will insist_on payment in gold, and. consequently gravated fo rm th an it doesat present - (Cheers and laughter.) the currency will be disturbed ; the reserve in the bank will The doctrine which infested the late Alderman Waiti° 3° .. be withdrawn, and there will be a constant and enormous -(A laugh) -and which he carried with im to his gril; exhausting process going forward. There will be imports, it was this, that there had been a vast diminution in , t ,.. , , is true; but, as a necessary consequence of those extrava. declared value of articles exported, and that the couu7,l gent imports, there will be a constant exportation of gold, therefore, was rapidly consuming its own strength ,1 1 ss and an aprreciation of the currency. But the bank had at approaching utter extinction.-(Laughter.) The In s that time 10 millions of gold, and now it has 15 millions, Member for Buckinghamshire would have been sus) How happens it then that, concurrently with this great in- prised at hearing how eloquent Alderman Waithman con crease of imports, there has been, at the same time, no be upon this point.-(Hear hear and laughter.) "o e . diminution of gold; but, in consequence of the state of the was the worthy Alderman's argument: he said, that the '-' 0 consumed this 32,500,000/. worth of eatable and drinkable exchanges, an accumulation, an increase of gold ? Who have Who grudges the vernment forgot that every branch of our trade ,s . . i s s materials ?-( Hear.) founded on prohibition-that the country was struggil" cots there been any case of surfeit ? - Cheers . and laughter.) expenditure? Has with dreadful difficulties-that 3,000,000 quarters of CO the cholera attributable to that consumption, or have diseasels and 2,000,000/. worth of silk manufactures had been S",a and suffering been entailed in consequence of this increase ported into this country, and although it was argued 0' I I the money paid for all this would come back, he could t e t s trary, I believe that the whole of these imports' but, the con of imports ?-(Hear, hear.) I believe not • on the con- the House it was no such thing, for that, whatever we wig," import, our exports would not increase in consequenc e i t ; that in the course of the last twelve years preceding thac A6 sumption of them have contributed to the material comfort of the people, and that it would have been a public misfortune which be spoke we had lost 120,000,000/. of our export tran s if this 32,000,000/. worth of imports had been by any pro- and he proved it by the. paper which I now hnld in o l f, cess reduced to 22,000,0004 or 25,000,000/. a orth.--(Cheers.) hand.-(Cheers and laughter.) -This only show s now ma c e" and laughter repeated.) Observe I believe that the import of these commodities, being articles more aggravated the disorder was in those clays.-(Cheoes.r of subsistence, has not only contributed directly to the ma- took place in the time of protection.-(Cheers.) Aidero o 4 " that this fatal deco, terial comfort of those who consumed them, but has also encouraged their labour, because they have been paid for by IVaitlaman took the exports from 1814 to 1828, with theS the proceeds of their labour.-(Cheers.) So much for the articles of consumption; and I come now to the articles of official, declared, and real value, and divided them into tau Periods, one from 1814 to 1820, and the other from 1820 1 ; raw material. The great operation of any tariff with which 1828. He sho we d t h at i n the first period the excess of r e el I was connected w as i n t h e di minution of the duties on raw over official value was 41,521,000 i., and in the second perio,i materials. Is it possible .to contend that you have dimi- a _ota namely, from 1820 to 1828, 83,243,0004, making t nished the encouragement to domestic industry by having amount of depreciation in value of 124,764,000 i. He sa l sa that the yearly _value of exports from 1814 to 1820 1 10 by a reduction of duty rendered the articles used in our manufactures a little cheaper? Is it possible to contend that 45,262,0001., and from 1820 to 1828 36,462,0004 He M a i o the reduction of the duty on articles used in dyeing, on the annual decrease amount to 8,800,000/. To which 1 , timber, on madder, indigo, and all those raw materials re- addd decrease of colonial and foreign produce, 4,524,0 we quired for 'our manufactures, can have any other effect than making together 13,325,000/. Finally the worthy AldeS 3 /, that of diminishing the cost of the manufactured article made out that there was a depreciation in value of 28,000,tn, here, and enabling the manufactured goods of this country ou 48,000,0001., or 60 per cent., and then he prophesied, ts to compete with greater advantage with articles of foreign doubtless, he would have been justified in doing if his the ° :a without being overwhelmed by bankruptcy and rin t i l ; manufacture? - (Hear, hear.) Is it possible to contend that had been correct, that we could not continue in that con': such a measure has interfered with the domestic industry of this country ?-(Loud cheers.) But it is said that it is Ought not this to suggest to the mind of the Honours the import of manufactured goods which has caused the Member for Buckinghamshire the possibility of his bet falling off on the declared value of exports ?-(Hear, h.e/is! distress of the country. Now, how stands the case? Here wrong in the deduction which he has drawn from t 's is this great commercial country interfering by the export of its manufactures; if it be interference-if it be not a positive Having diminished the cost of cotton, oil, and evertuS s e addition to the material comfort of those communities with which enters into the composition of manufactures, it i5., 0 1 which we deal.-(Cheers.) But if this introduction of foreign duction, though not a reduction in the amount of wages 1 3 ! 1 .,i1 natural result that there should be a diminished cost of KJ, articles in a country be interference and cerise of misfortune, where is the delinquent so enormous as Great Britain?- It is a totally erroneous conclusion to state that bean:, (Cheers.) In 1848 you exported in official value about the declared value o f exports happens to be 646,000/. lend 133,000.0001., the produce of your industry; and you im- at one period than another, therefore th e workmen el, ported manufactured goods to the amount in declared value plod in ma nu f actur i ng the exported articles have t of about 4,722,000/. wort h . I s th a t sufficient to account for ceived 646,000/. l ess wages at one time than anot her. 4 the distress?-(Cheers,) Your imports, in 1848, of raw ma- (Here Mr. Disraeli ma d e an o b servation which did Ov terials to be f a b r i cate d b y your i n d us try amo un t e d i n va l ue reach the ga ll ery .) T he Hon. Members words were- cc th e s to 48,400,0004, and the manufactured goods imported only cotton goods exported in 1849 were 646,000/. less in declar ed amounted to 4,703,0004 - (Hear, hear.) But is that value than the same quantity of goods exported in 185 4,700,000/. worth the amount which was taken for home and, therefore, the English workman had received 646,0 consumption, and which could by any possibility interfere less for his labour." That is what I understood the .11 011 with your native i n d ust r y? N o. D e d uct f rom t h at amount M em b er to state-(,Hear, hear)-and I say i n rep l y t hat 's all that you re-expo r t e d. Y ou canno t d eny t h at t h at i s a just i s t o t a ll y erroneous to i n f er that b ecause there has bee° s 0 mode of proceeding. Of cotton goods from India and diminution in the declared value of export;, the labour;, Europe you imported in va l ue 512,000 1. worth ; freill b ut who produce the articles exported stiffer any loss. I 7 you re-exported a very co ns id era bl e portion of give another proof of the fallacy o f conc l us i ons drawn sir that quantity so imported. Y ou exported aga i n no less than the declared value of manu f actures. In 1815 the num b t 275,0001. worth. Theref ore , d e d uct from the 512,000!. of yards of wove co t ton manufactures exported from .isiS worth imported the 275,000/. w ort h re - exported. Could country was 252,000,000, and the declared value there be a greater proof c.f the benefit of free trade than this, 18,1:58,0001 0 and in 1845 the quantity of wove cotton moo" that it enables this country to become the entrepOt for the factures exported was 1,091,000,000 yards, and the deelarls goods of other nations, inviting those goods to these shores, value was 18,09,000/. Thus it would seem that 100 piece s , and, to the advantage of our warehousing System, caus i ng calico cos t 18 s. i n 1815, an d t h at 400 pieces cost no more 1' them to be deposited here far re-exportation? Thus our 1845. This circumstance alone is sufficient to show how e? C : shipping was employed, and great advantage con f erre d on t reme l y unsafe i t i s t o d raw i nferences from these acconl3 i ; this country, without those goods interfering in any s h ape of de c l are d va lues. The Hon. Memb er f or B ucks contend; with the loss which he assumes to b e ex hibi ted in the &Ilia with your domestic industry.-( Hear.) Yo u h a d a great import of silks, not on account of the natural operations of off in the declared value has fallen mainly on the labours"; trade, but on account of the state of F rance and the desire and b e drew from th a t c i rcumstance the most melanchu:4l which the French manufacturer h a d o f real i s i ng whatever i n f ere nces with resp ec t to the future condition of the count'J' meats fairly and dispassionately, I will as f ar as possib , could be gained. With respect to s ilk an d other articles, you I beg to observe that, being desirous of me e ti ng his argre had unnatural imports, to be att r ib ute d to the depression of comply with his su ggest i on, that M the course of this discu s ; could in other countries, and n o t t o t h e natural operat i on of trade. But of the silks imported y ou exporte d 870,0004 sion we should ref er on l y to official documents, but it is i°3 worth; and when it is said that th e d omest i c manufactur e was possible to do so a lt oget h er when we come to deal with lire interfered with by the import, then on the other hand allow- state of the country. Like the Chancellor of 'the Exo b s e e I must be quer, permitted to refer, upon tills point, to the ante must be made for the amount re-exported.-(Hear, hear.) But another and still further deduction you must most recent information which I have received, and on the make. You must deduct from the whole of the legitimate credibility of which I can fully rely. After all, 'by far the imports all that would have been imp )rted by smuggling, if most important part of the question is the condition of 0 0 three manufacturing towns in different parts of the kingd° , von had chosen to retain high duties of 40 or 50 per cent.- labourer.-(Hear, hear.) I have received accounts fr° o -from Chippenham, representing the manufacturing istl t s e e (Hear, hear.) No doubt in such case the apparenta m m a o n u u n .. t of imports would have been greatly reduced, and the hi the central r part of England; and Dundee, representing Sc ° , se , might have consoled him. rests of the west of England ; from Nottingham, representi ng self r h e d o . r one-N No actu r e r in this country perhaps s s i e x lf t hwoitfhththeland. The letter from Chippenham, dated the 80th of Jo" the thought of thatthe present tosaennyt imports e orts but h a o d n e e - n fi t idea could be more delusive. The smuggler would have is as follows :- corrected the aburdity of your commercial system-(Cheers) and he would .have pocketed the gain the country has derived from facilitating commercial intercourse.( Cheers.) To take the articles with respect to which there was great complaint, such ,as watches, leather gloves, embroidery, and needlework, do you think that, with a restored duty of 50 per cent., there would be a correspond- ing protection to domestic industry? No such thing. There would be a loss to the revenue, but you would not have in creased protection.-(Cheers.) There was a Commission over which my lamented friend, whose loss, all who knew him, either personally or by character, must deplore-I mean Lord G. Somerset-presided in 1844. It was a Commission of inquiry respecting the Customs defaulters, and they re ported that they were disposed to admit that the annual loss which occurred bore some approximation to one-half the amount of duty; that, with respect to lace, they were as sured that more than one-half was introduced without pay ment of duty; and that the proceedings which had taken place in the courts showed the almost unlimited amount of fraud committed in respect to the article of gloves; and that they entertained serious apprehensions that extensive frauds were not confined to the articles above named. With such evidence before us, wkat is the prudent course to pursue? Would it be the prudent course to continue the duty so high IQ would haye the effect Of handing ever half the memo " Cheham, June " My dear .sir,—My statement t o y o u this morning I P" g in reference to our books, to be correct. In the six mond:, ending this day w e h ave paid to the same number of pe9Eig twenty-five per cent. more wages than in the corresponuq. period of 1847, an d f u ll y twenty per cent, more than in 18ei, and I believe th e people i n this place generally are better ,4 better clothed, and in every way more comfortable than th ; have been for years. The general trade of the town is i li a ; very flourishing st a t e ; poor - rates a b out 3s. 4d. in the polio the number of pe o pl e i n t h e un i on workhouse, 97- West of England cloth trade is unquestionably better thail, has been f or y ears . I h ave reason to know that in the tor h ; of Trowbrie ge more goo d s h ave b een made and sold in t 74 last six or nine m o nth s , an d a l arger amount of wages F e te to the people than w e re ever b e f ore known, and th s I bel l ' o f is the case in the whole clothing district of the `rest England; the Parliamentary returns of the consutnptio 3 e cotton and wool prove it to be th e same b ot h i n Yorkalw and Lancashire." In the West of England and other parts of the clothing t . sc .. trict one complaint prevails. Wh a t i s i t ? Th e ma turers cannot get a sufficient quantity of foreign vi° ° i , i o,4 (Cheers.) When we reduced th e d uty on f ore i gn woo l it ce, said that the measure would i nter f ere w i t h d omest i c procW 0 and Nedgce the y4lue 9f Cho w99lgroyna at ilellle. So fotrill tkfat., that 1 more them nufac in the (Ch indu port