The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-03 00:00:00

MORNING EDI rioN could be more absurd than that the decrees of a ludge who was competent to the performance of his task, should be reversed by a body of Peers, who were en tirely ignorant of every matter relating to the adminis tration of the law ? Had this practically been the case, the glaring absurdity of the pracdce would have rendered it intolerable ; but the great body of the Peers acquiesced in the decision of the Lord Chancellor ; and he was, in fact, the sole Judge of Appeals in the House of Lords. It was right, therefore, to consider the qualifications neces eery for the performance of the functions of Lord Chancellor. It sometimes happened that circumstances might render it expedient that that office should be filled by a person not possessed of the greatest share of equi!y law, who might have to learn the law which he was called on to administer, on whose judgments no de pendence could be placed, not on account of any fault of the individual se filling the office, but, because, pro vious to his appointment, his attention had been en tirely engrossed by matters foreign to the study of that law which he wes called on to ediniaister ; and it might happen, as it sometimes had happened, that he might decide on a cese without calling in the assistance of the other Judges. Ali appeals from time Court of Chancery must be appeals to him self. This, of itsein was a wee t alarming fact. If a Judge in the C,surt below was called on to re-hear a cause, as that :cause would not be carried to another tribunal he might change his opinion without any dm pugeiug of his judgment, as other circumstances me a l,: Dave been breught to his knowledge ; hilt in a case of eppeal from his jadisrnent to a superior Cuurt, unless It was a case of some obvious slip, it would be contrary to human n iture to expect that ho sheuld reverse his own decision. His autherity being impugned before Lis Peers, he had every motive and every feeling to adirm his own decision. Ile was, in fact, to all in tents and purpeaes, a party in the cause. If a Judge lead is p,cuniary interest in a cause be wets not per mitted to sit in judgment on it ; and whilst character and high station were of any value—whilst self-love was an actuating motive in the human breast, the Lord Chancellor, sitting as the Judge of Appeal is the 1 - I,us.. of Lards, would have a much stronger motive than any pecuniary one could possibly be to affirm his own decision. Tire ancient Grecien had ap ec Jed from Phi ie drunk to Paiiip sober ; but appeals front the Court of Chancery to the House of Lords were appeals fur Philip sober to Philip drunk —appeals from a Judge uninfluenced by any motive, with alt his passians slumbering, to the same Judge actuated by the strongest possible motives, the passion of self love, to support his own previous judgment. Such a 5) stern could not long be allowed to continue, and he knew thet no one deprecated it more than the present Lord Chancellor himself. He did not desire to in terfere with the jurisdiction of the House of Lords more • than was necessary, but in his opinion that jurisdiction could not remain untouched. It was a complete ab surdity to appeal from the decision of the Lord Chancellor in the Court of Chancery to the same Learned Judge sitting in the House of Lords. lie (Sir E. Sugdcn) deprecated the hearing of appeals by ex-Judges, for he thought there was a great difference in men when they acted under the oath they had taken as a Judge, and when they were riot bound by any such oath. Ile vie Neil with alarm the number of judgments that were in arrear in the House of Lords. It was an effort too great ler the humen mind. Whilst there wet so much business tube got through there must be and always would be an arrear. Ho proposed, therefore, that the Lord Chancellor should have constant and regular assistance He had no wish either to add to or to dimini,h the jurisdiction of the House of Lords. It was essential to the character of that House that it should continue to have its present jurisdiction, and he would neither diminish nor interfere with that jurisdiction. But whilst he was not willing to disturb the jurisdiction of the House of Lords, and wished to see it remain in its present state, he was prepared to propose that two Judges should be appointed who should be e illed Lords' Assistants, and sit with tile Lord Chan cellor. It not Peers, they would of course have no voice in the House of Lords, and only deliver a ju diciel opinion ; but still they would act as Judges during the hearing of this cause, deliver their opinions openly as Judges, and in ail respects sustain that cha racter. Such assistance would at oece cure all the . anomalies to which he had referred. He proposed also that the Hou.e of Lords should have the power of cal ng in the Equity Judges to assist them, as they had et present the power of calling in the other Judges. Is 1830 he had proposed the formation cf a,t Equity Exchequer, to be composed of four Judges, namely, the Lu d Chancellor, the ViceiChanceller, and two Barons of the Exchequers It was objected to that the elf , ct would be to carry the Judges, to a great ex f tie ei- eten Court, and his proposal was not csneurreit tl,,tiar. The I-honour able and Learned Member then went at consider able length into the merits of the plans of reform pro- I emsed by the present Lord Chancellor and the Master of the Roils in the House of Lords in 1836 ; but as they had all failed, he now proposed to bring in his plan, and the merit belonging to it was, in his eyes, that it neither took from the House of Lords any power now possessed by them, nor did he propose to add to those it a!readg possessed. The other part of his plan re- • 'sited to the Privy Council. The Judicial Committee of that Court had immense powers, and had to decide upon ell the laws not only of Europe but of Asia, and I had jurisdiction over all the property of the country. , The sittings of that Committee extended only to 18 days during the whole of last year ; it had no head, and in his opinion it hard been as great a failure as the Court of Review. He rqosed, in order to n.ake it a proper Court, with a proper head, and regular sittings, that the two persons who were to assist the Lord Chancellor should, when not so sitting, sit in the Judicial Committee. The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded at some length to detail the arrangements which he thought necessary to be adopted respecting the relative positions of the Judge and Counsel is the Court, to afford the greatest facilities for conducting business conveniently therein, and after a few further observations on that part of the gulject, sat down. Mr. LYNCH contended that an additional Judge war necessary. He would, in the first place, direct the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet to the evidence given before a Committee of the House of Lords, where by it was proved that out of 1,068 suits instituted in the Courts of Equity, 300 only were set down for hearing, end out of those 300 only 180 were heard each year. 'Ftiose 120 causes that were thus annually withdrawn, were not, he submitted, causes of compromise, and that number formed quote sufficient work for a single Judge in each court ; for when they heard of a Judge hearing 120 causes, they should learn that he not only heard those causes, but lie must also take care of them ; he must hear all the incidental matter that arose out of these causes, and all the necessary motions referring to them. He (Mr. Lynch) contended that he had wale out a case for an additional Judge. There was a very large arrear in the number of causes set down before the Lord Chancellor. His Right Hon. Friend stated that the present arrear in the Vice- Chencello.'s Court amounted to 455 causes ; but he did not take into consideration 100 other causes that stood over ; he would be, therefore, more accurate if he had stated the number at 535 His Right lion. Friend might also have told the House that there were causes now standing over two or three years in the Vice-Chancellor's Court. The Right Hen Baronet bad himself proposed that two edlitional Judges should be appointed in the year 1830, when the arrears were not near so great as at present, His Right Hon. Friend admitted the present Judges could not do more work than they dad at present, and yet it was proposed to impose more upa n them. What other remedy then was there but to create new Judge'? The present want of judicial power occasioned the com promise of suits and their renewal. It was said the arrears in the Court of Chancery were not so great as • they were, but the Lord Chancellor wcull not be able to hear another cause until n xt Michas: ma: term, and consequently the arrears F o dd increase in the interim. There was a great arrear of motions in the Vice-Char cellor's Court relative lo railways, :n con equ, nc o' which the Vice-Chencel or did not fer a cause for months together. In t: e time of Lord Hardwick there was but 400 causes and 370 pen ions io arrear, but now there were in a-rear 2,700 pctitisns. Did the Hon. Gentleman m on • hat those two Judges whom he had proposed as assistants to the Lord Chan cellor were to give judgment in his absence He did not think his Right Hon. Friend had rightly stated Lord Langdale's proposition, and it appeared to him (Mr. Lynch) that until that plan of Lord Langdale's was properly carried out, they could not m eke adequate provision for the equit b'e jurisdiction of the Court. It appeared to him further that the Lord Chancellor ought to go into the House of Lords, where, if the busi ness was properly conduct d, there would be a regular bar, and the appellate jurisdiction would be then pro perly attended to. These were some of the suggestions which he had thought it his duty to throw out to the House, and he would repeat, that let them reform the Appellate Court as they might, still the Bill of hi s Right Hon. Friend would be necessary. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied, As there appeared to be no opposition to the bringing of the Bill on ley side of the House, and as the objections taken were all to matters of detail, he should offer very few remarks to the House. He would, however, ob serve that it was the unanimous opinion of all the law Lords, Chancellor, ex-Chancellors, and all, that there should be two new Judges. With regard to the awe. sure which tire Hon. and Learned Gentleman had stated he would bring in, he (the Attorney-General) would offer no opposition to its introduction. He was willing that the House should see it, and no doubt the measure would receive such support as it was thought deserving of. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. Sir E. SUGDEN moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the better Administration of Justice in the House of Lords, and the Judicial Committee of the Prey Council. RUM AND SUGAR. Mr. LABOCCHERE, in rising to bring this sub ject before the (louse, stated that it might be conve- nient to the Members that he should state at once I it was not his intention on that occasiou to ask for any expression of opinion that would bind the House at any future stage of the measure he intended to pro pose. It had been stated to him, by persons whose property would be affected by the measure, that it would be fully explained to the House, and that the substance of the resolution he intended to move should be some days before the House before it was called upon to adopt it. He felt that such a course would be de sirable, and therefore willingly acceded to it. His in tention that night was only to make a statement of the grounds on which he was prepared, on the part of the Government, to recommend an alteration in the duties of ruin, the produce of an East India possession, and he sly ultl coaclude by moving that the House do, on Monday next, resolve itself into a Committee to consider so much of the Act as related to the duty on rum, the produce of any pessesslen within the limits of the East India Company's charter. Whereas the law at present allows sugar to be im perted from the East Indies at a proportionate rate of dety, with the produce of the same kind from the West Indies, it was his object to propose—and he considered it just and reasonable—that the East In dies should be at liberty to send into this country the other products of the sugar cane upon the same terms of equality. He thought this proposal was only just and reasonable, and would be received so by the House. In the course of the lest Session, he had himself pre sented a petition from :he Directors and Proprietors of the East India Company and other persons interested • in our intercourse with the East Indies, praying for an cqu tlizition of those duties. On that occesioo, he bad said that although he was at the time unprepared to give a decided opinion upon the question, he would take the whole subject into his consideration. A Committee of the House of Lords had agreed to resotatioas is hich he concurred, with the exception of that one which stated that the West India Colonies were in a state of transition, in consequence of the abolition of slavery rendering it necessary that they should not be thrown all at once into a competition with other colonies, which bad not the seine difficulties to encounter. He would not deny that the West Indies required the sup port of the mother country, under the circumstances with which those colonies had to contend ; but he must declare that in the measure which be now propoeed he hid no intention to give a stimulus to the products of the East Indies sr!verse:y to the colonies. He did not think that the market for rum in this country would be atTected by the proposed meacurc in a manner injurious to our West Indian colonies, and he thought he would be able to icy before the House facts connected with the case, which would show how base less and futile were the apprehensions entertained on Cie subject. There was a material difference between the supply of rum and the supply of sugar in this coun try at the present moment. It was well known that the supply of sugar now received bola from the East and West Indies was inadequate to the ordinary wants of the British market. What were the consequences of that ? The inhabitants of the West ladies enjoy the same monopoly for rum as for sugar, hut practically the else was very different. (Au Hon. Member intimated his dissent from this proposition.) Toe Right Honour able Gentleman said that he thought it would show the accuracy of his statement. The West Indies were at present unable to send a suf . & client supply of sugar to this country, while they were able to send a very considerably larger quantity of rum than the British market required, and the conse quence, of course, was that the surplus was exported to other countries. It followed from that the price of rum was not axed in the English market—the price of it here was governed by its price abroad. Of course, there could be but one price for the' surplus rum ex ported and that consumed in this country. The House would at once see that that was the case when he reminded them that sugar in bond varied very much in price, while there was no such differences in rum in bond, because its price was sure to be known frem its price in foreign mar kets. He could state a fact on the subject to which he was alluding, which he thought would leave no doubt on the matter. In the course of last year 100,000 gallons of rum had been purchased for the navy -50.000 gallons from the East Indies, and 50,000 gal lons from the West Indies, and in both cases they ob tained rum of the same quality at precisely the same price. He mentioned that to show that if they equalized the duty, there would be no fall in the East Indian rum, or any injury done to our West Indian co loniser. He did not think that the proposed measure would be attended with any such effect, and he, therefore, felt that they could not refuse their assent to a resolution which, on general grounds, every one should admit was one of sound policy. It was true that. if the supply of rum from the West 'aeries were considerably inferior to what the English market required, the ...--sure would be acteaded with digad vantages to those colon'it..., as they would then of course have a monopoly of the price of rum in the British market. But that was not the case, as he had already stated. He cared not, therefore, what was the great advantage of the duty to the West Indies, or what loss they would sustain if the law were altered. It might, however, be said that if that were the case—if the measure would not be attended with any loss to the West Indies—it could not be followed by any train to the East Indies. He admitted the force of that argument. He admitted that on both sides the importance of the question had been greatly exaggerated ; but at the same time, as generally hap pened with regard to those restriction, that inconve- rCence which they caused on the one side was greater than the gain which they gave on the other.—(Haar, hear.) It was true that there was one case in which the law at present operated unfavourably to the East Indies, and that was in the case of the finer kinds of rum which were purchased up in this country, and of which the West Indies at present enjoyed a monopoly. As that, however, was but an item of the trade, ho did not think the repeal of the enactment would produce any very injurious consequences to West Indian interests. He would really be glad to hear from Hon. Gentlemen opposed to him some reasonable proof that the change which ho sought for would be so injurious as some seemed to imagine. He thought that the House should require that proof would be given—that there ought to be something more than mere apprehensions —something more than allegations, to show that they would deeply injure one portion of their colonies, before they refused to sanction a measure which was one of undoubted justice and fairness to the West Indies. No one who had paid any attention to the evidence which had been taken before both Houses of Parliament could fail to be struck with the feeling with which this question had been discussed by both sides, more especially with the manner in which the sub ject had been urged by those connected with the East Indies. It had been represented that a strong feeling of public opinion was growing up in the East Indies, not only among the English inhabitants but also among the netive population ; that in our com mercial regulations we went out of our way to inflict measures injurious and disadvantageous to India ; and when he spoke of public opinion among the native po pulation, he would be borne out in stating that there was growing up among the native population an increased feeling of intelligence, which enabled them to compre hend and discuss questions of this nature. He there fore thought they were bound to see that there was some good and solid reason for refusing them a boon of this kind, which had been urged so strongly by those who represented their interest in this country—he meant the Board of Directors. He would now read to the House a statement of figures which would put them in possession of the present state of the rum trade in India, and by that statement it would appear that he was fully borne out in saying that at the present moment there was more rum brought from the West India co lonies than could be consumed in this country ; conse quently, that a large quantity of it was exported to foreign countries, were it met with East India rum ; and if the West Indians, in selling rum to the Germans, were settele why they compete with E as t India rum, h e cou ld not they should not be able to do the same in England.—{Hear, hear.) The paper he held in his hand was a statement of the quantities of rum imported into the United Kingdom, distinguishing Chet from the British West Indies ; that on which duty had been paid, and that which had been re-exported, from the years 1833 to 1839, both inclusive. From this state ment it appeared th a t t h e quant i ty of ruin imported into the United Kingdom, f rom all places, during the th eyear 1833, amounted to 5,146,000 gallons ;tberluf,antthitay imported from the British W est Indies, di year, was 5,109,000 gallons ; the quantity on*whicht duty was paid was 3,49'2,000 gallons ; there was a sma ll quantity used as ships' stores, and the quan tity re-exported was 1,834,000 gallons. In the year 1834, the total quantity imported from all places was 5,158,000 gallons, from the British West Indies 5,112,000 gallons, the quantity on which duty had been paid was 3,345,000 gallons, and the quantity re-export ed was 1,65,5,000. He would not trouble the House by going through the details of the intermediate years, but he would read the statement of the last year in the account, 1839. In the year 1839, the quantity of rum imported into the United Kingdom from all places amounted to 5,477,000 gallons, from the British West Indies 4,021,000 gallons, the quantity on which duty was paid was 2,830,000 gallons, and the quantity re-ex ported was 1,155,000 gallons. In addition to the account of rum exported in 1839, he should state also that there had been taken up for the use of the navy, ships' stores, &c., of West India rum 634,000 gallons, and of East India rum 87,000 gallons. He would put it to the House whether this was not proof sufficient the West ; much larger quantity of rum was import e d f r o nt West Indies than c o uld b e consume d i n th e E ng li s h that it was obliged to be exported to a third market, principally to the north of Germany, where it met with rum f rom the East Indies, Cuba, and Brazils, with which it was able to compete and find a market. Now it was too obvious for hint to waste their time by attempting to prove further, as long as this surplus existed, the price in the English market must be governed in A great degree by the price in the third e'er foundation e correct, he was at aloli market. to If tt n d t e h r e e s t e a dfi figures what the tip- 1 T:IE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESOAY, VP:BRIJ k st 3 1. prehension expressed by the West India interest could rest, that it an equalization of the duties on East and West India rum were to take place, they themselves would suffer great loss, while the state of the rum market would be altogether altered. He now came to that part of the subject which had excited the apprehensions of many who were ready to adroit, that if they could be certain that the rum imported from the East Indies would be really rum, the West Indians would have no right to complain ; but they were ap prehensive, that under the name of rum, a cheap spirit, distilled from rice, flavoured with rum, would be im ported, to the great detriment, not only of the West India colonists, but also of the English distillers; and some of the gentlemen representing the West India interest, but, he was happy to say, however, without any great success, had endeavoured to enlist the Eest India distillers in opposition to this measure. Now he thought that if any gentleman looked atten tively to this question he would at once perceive that a more idle bugbear had never been set up than this attempt. In the first place, the measure he intended proposirg did not refer to all spirit but exclusively to rum, the produce of the sugar cane, and if the House should approve of his resolution, he should take care that in the Bill founded on it a provision should be introduced that no rum should be admitted into this country except upon a reisular certiticete of the Revenue officers in the East Indies.—(Hear, hear.) It was true the Queen had no 'Revenue. establishment in the East Indies, but on consulting the Board of Cus toms on the subject, he was authorised to say, by the Chairman of that Board, that he should have as much confidence in a certificate brought to the Customs in this country from the officer of the East India Com pany, as he would in the Custom-house establishment of her Majesty. He thought, therefore, unless gentlemen were prepared to sty that a certificate was worth nothing, he should, by having that ecrtificetc, put an effectual stop to the introduction of rice spirits, He should also observe that this spirit would have to pay a 9s. duty, and it was not very likely that the distillers and merchants would be greatly injured by such spirits being brought to this country.— (Hear, hear.) He had not received any representation from the distilling interests of the country, that there was the least fear of that happening which had been supposed, namely, the ietroduction of cheap spirits to the detriment of the West Indies. As he understood it was not intended to discuss the present question on the other side of the Ilouse that night, he did not think it would be necessary to go fusilier ; a l he was anxious to do was to stet,: the general grounds on which he introduced the subject. His firm conviction was that, unless it could be shown that they were ir,flictio; great injury on the West Indies. which had not been proved, there could be na objection to the measure. lie could assure the House that if he thought he was inflicting injury, he should be as anxious not to intro duce the measure, as he was now to introduce it. There was now, he was happy to say, a feeling arising in the population of the East Indies which, if this coun• try cultivated, would be one of the strongest links of connection between them and this country, but which, if despised, would be attended tenth the worst eff. ets. He was anxious that they should show that country that wherever inequalities existed it was their pleasure and delight to redress them. He was sure the House would not so far desert its duty as to suppose. that it was not bound to consider the interests of the Eta: Indies as much as any other part of the country. He should he sorry to see the House turn a deaf ear to the proposal which, without doing injury to the West .ludies, would confer great benefits on the East Indies.—. (Hear, hear, hear.) The duty on spices and silks required revision, but he would not express any opinion upon that now ; but there was one subject upon which he would just state the opinion of the Government. He alluded to the trade between the Eastern Colonies of Ceylon and Australia. That trade had been greatly injured by discriminating duties. A Committee of the House of Lords had recommended that those duties should be equalised, and he must say that in that opi nion he cordially concurred, for it was not to be tole rated that the trade between the East Indies and those countries should be put a stop to by such duties. W a s it not a measure of common justice and of obvious good policy, as regarded C-Ilon, Australia, and the East Indies, that this state of things should undergo an alteration ? He was happy to state that it was in con templation, by an Order in Council, to put the duties upon Indian produce and manufactures upon a more equal footing. He would not trouble the House with any further remarks on that occasion. He had pledged himself to give the subject his attentive consideration ; and having done his best to redeem that pledge, he would now propose that on Monday next the House should go into Committee on that part of the Act of Purliameut relating to the duties on runs and sugar. Mr. EWART said he would not go into this sub ject at any length, partly because his Rght Honourable Friend bad deprecated discussion on that occasion, and partly because these was a question pending before the House that evening which might possibly disin• cline many Hon. Members from giving that attention to a commercial subject, which it was so well qualified to command. But ha must express his regret at the mode of supporting his motion which had been adopted by the Honourable Gentleman. Ile thought it quite unnecessary upon a measure founded on the strictest justice to argue the question as one which might possibly affect the West Indian body, or weaken a monopoly which had been so long maintained.—(Hear, hear.) The question was one of justice ; it was not to be narrowed and circumscribed into a West Indian question, or a question of any monopoly whatever. He also regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had not made his motion more extensive, and taken in a greater range of commerce. The Report to which he had alluded opened to him a wider field than the one over which he had expatiated. There was the question of extending the commerce in sugar, which now came almost exclusively from Bengal ; there was the question of allowing produce grown in many of our East Indian possessions to be placed on the same level with Bengal. Mysore, too, which ought to be placed upon the seine footing. Those questions might all have been referred to. He would, hoWever, reserve any further observations which he might have to make upon this subject, until the second reading of the Bill. For the present he would content himself with deprecating the course of narrowing this into a mere West Indian question, and entreating the House, when the subject came again before them, to make the measure of relief as large and comprehensive as the case required. The subject was one of a vast importance, not only to the East Indies, but to Great Britain herself, and to the commerce which bound the two countries together. Mr. GOULBURN said he had been very much surprised at the motion then before the (louse, and, considering everything which had occurred, the pub lished Report of the House of Lords, which was laid upon the table of the House last Session, and the cir cumstance that, from the Committee of the House of Commons which contained members of the Govern ment, there had not proceeded a single syllable in de rogation of the opinion of that Committee of the House of Lords, he thought it was impossible for the House to accede to the proposition before it. He (Mr. Goulburn) thought it would be highly improper for the House to embark in a discussion so large and impor tant in the absence of complete and full information. He would not express any decided opinion at present, but he should be prepared to state his opinion on some future occasion. Mr. HUME said that if the Right Honourable Gentleman was surprised at what had been brought forward he was taken by surprise, not because the pro , position was so extensive and vast but bscauge it was I so trifling.—( Hear, hear.) As far as it went he per fectly accorded with the measure, but it was only one act of justice when many were required.—( Hear, hear.) Not only the interests of India but the best resources of England had been injured by the restrictions rhich bad been suffered to remain so long upon commerce. The vast powers of India to promote commerce, and to increase .svealtla, we by our legislation had actually limited and prevented. Indii had not had fair play ; on the contrary she had been cramped and confined in the exercise of those ample powers which she naturally , possessed for the extension of her commerce. The reve • nue of India had consequently suffered toso great a degree that she teal scarcely able to meet her increased exp7n diture. If England had been benefited, it might be ' some excuse for this state of things ; but England had herself teen a loser by C:ese restrictions. He had therefore expected that the Hon. Gentleman would have brought forward a mach more extensive measure than was before the House. The Right Hon. Gentle Man would find as much opposition to this paltry and trifling amendment as if he had brought the whole question be fore the House. The time was come when all legisl a hit ion in relation to our commerce must be reconsidered. He would only at present enter his protest against this a G y ov o e f r n dealing w o w u i l t d h t t h h i e n k s u b i j t e c t r , i g a h n t d t o h e a d hoped that ry th w e larger measure, more suitable to the requirements of the country and to the present state of India. Mr. HOGG wished to say one or two words with regard to the Committee referred to by the Honourable Member for Gimbridge. That Committee was per. vetted into a regular West Indian Committee.— (Hear, hear.) There was no Report made. When he proposed that they should make a Report, he was met by the objection that they had not heard half the evi dence that could be adduced. It was said that witnesses could be brought from almost every island in the West Its dies, and that it would be useless in the absence of such evi dence to m.ik,e a Report. With regard to the measure proposed, as fa , as he (Mr. Hogg) was acquainted with i the feelings of those connected with the East Indies, he could safely say that it would be hailed with plea sure and received with the deepest gratitude. A more extended measure might, and he hoped soon would, be introduced into that House ; but the great and crying evil in India was the question of rum ; and he believed that the particular body with which he was connected, and the Elst Indian interest, at largo, would hail .with great s,:ttiA.wt?on tli;.. useasf:re v,'Lici had been propos,- - Ni. Sir JOHN HODHOUSE said he hoped that the 1 Honourable Gentlemen who thought the measure did no go far enough, would consider .the formidable opposition with which the Government bad to con tend, and not refrain from giving their support to what was proposed because it did not go far enough. The Government had shown what their disposition was by their determination to make an Order in Council with respect to Ceylon and Australia ; and he trusted that Hos. Gentlemen would give them credit for their intentions —( Hear, hear.) He hoped that these ques tions would ere long be considered, not with reference to any particular body, but to the interests of the whole empire.—(Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL would not infringe the agree ment which seemed to have been Coale to by the House, riot to discuss this measure at length on that occasion ; but he begged to say that on Monday next he would call the attention of the House to the neces sity of preventing commerce in rum slave-produced, and to the violation of that part of the Act which re lated to the mitigation of slavery in the East Indies. Dr. LUSHINGTON said he quite agreed with the Hen: Member!or Dublin as to the absolute necessity of excluding from theequalisation of duty any produce which might be the produce of slave labour. Not only did he concur in that opinion, but he must say that he went further ; because, attached as he was to the great prin ciples of the motion of his Right Hon. Friend the Pre• sident of the Board of Trade, yet he thought they could not, either with justice to the W.- st Indies, Cr with due regard to the great principle; laid down in that House from time to time, allow the East Indian produce to he placed upon the same looting with the produce of the West Indies, unless the whole system of slavery existing in the Eest Indies were altogether extinguished. —( Hear, hear.) It was not extinguished—it was not extirpated— it continued to fieurish, not rm!y ns a do ineetie system of slavery, hut 6v the import of Slave up to that very hour. Le 1833 his Noble Frical Lird Gloneig, when ho brought in the Bill respecting the Company's Cheater, introduced a clause putting an end to all slavery in the East and that clause passed the house, he bt_.heved, without a sin le d.s3,mtient. Nor was it then hastily or rashly deteriaia;7;l upon ; the mos.t eminent men connected with the subject were consulted, and the Neble Lard was informed that it would be perfectly safe, therefore the clause was car ried. It was true that the Lords threw it out, but they did not do so upon principle, they wanted to have fu:ther evidence on the subject. It was his intention to lade the Right Heneureble President of the Board of Control to produce all the pipers on the subject in order to know what steps the Company hed tak.et to carry out the intentions of that House, or whether they had done anything after obtaining a fug knowledge of the proceedings of that House. He thought the House would never consent to allow, in the face of all its most solemn declarations upon the subject of slavery--t never would allow those principles to he set at nought in our Extern dominions. Ile would say put the East Indies on the same footing with the West Indies in respect to slavery—jet slavery be extirpated, and he would go fatthe than his Right Hon Friend, and say, give justice to the East Indies not oily in the articles of sugar and of rum, but in every other production. Ho would ask those papers of his Right Hon. Friend, and on them he woald be prepared to ground a motion for the total abolition of slavery. Mr. BROCK HURST said British interests hid not been alluded to either in the Report of the Lords' Committee or in the discussion that night, but he trusted they would be taken care of as welt as those of the people of the East Indies. the motion was then agreed to—the Committee to sit on .MondAy. REGISTRATION (IRELAND). Lord STANLEY rose for the purpose of moving for leave to bring in a Bill for emendine the L for the Registration of Voters in Ireland. lie was relieved from trespassing on the House at any length, because the subject was not only not new, but even too fa miliar to those. whom be had the honour to address ; also he could not believe that the House would re fuse in the present Session permission to bring in a Bill which he had been allowed to do last- year with out difficulty or division, and one, the second reading of which he had obtained by a majority, and on which he was almost warranted in saying, but for the difficulties and unprecedented delays which hail been thrown in its way, would now have been the law of the lend.—(Cheers.) He wou:sl only shortly remind the House of the main provisions which he had proposed for the purpose of re medying those abuses wh'eh were admitted to exist by all parties, for it had been admitted on all hands there was an universal and unanimous conviction that the abuses which had been stated over and over again as arising out of that system of registration now existing, was so unbearable as to render legislation upon the sub ject absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.) The first point he proposed to effect by the Bill, which obtained such universal assent last S!elion. was to abolish alto gether the system of eseeLmeates in regard to the right of voting ; and he proposed that, because he thought that that system was the main spring and source of the mischief. In lieu of that. system he wished to introduce no new and untried plan ; his object was to introduce the English system into Ireland, by which a register made up by certain speed:: public offi cers would be formed, and that that should give, with out further dispute and cavil, the right of voting to all who were upon such register. He proposed also to transfer another portion of the English system to Ire land, namely, that the claimant in Ireland should give a public notice of the same length of time, and with an equal degree of publicity, as the claimant in England was obliged to give, so that all persons intending to dispute the claim might have the same public opportunity of contesting such claim. So also he wished, as in England, that the registration should not be carried on in the Q uar t er S ess i ons , b ut be considered as an ob j ect of primary importance. He therefore proposed that the registration should be an nual. He did not propose to alter the Judge, but that the Assistant Barrister should make the registration specific business at a separate circuit ; therefore, not altering the authority, but changing the time and sav ing time, by including in the circuits several towns where his Courts should be held, for the purpose of considering any objections that might be made to a claimant nearer his own home than the assize town. But there was another portion of his Bill to which much cavil had been made. Without casting any imputations upon the Assistant Barristers, he thought it was impossible that the whole registration—that the rejection or admission of a claim should rest wholly upon one individual. Such was the law at present, and what was the remedy which was opened to aggrieved parties ? They had none but the most inconvenient, expensive, and uncertain remedy of an appeal to a Committee of the House of Commons, upon a petition respecting a contested election. Now, every side of the House—all parties agreed—that it was extremely desirable that an end should be put to this most vexatious system. But if that system were with drawn, some substitute must be found of a more impartial, more learned, and more certain na ture ; that was universally acknowledged.—(Hear.) In many Bills which he had seen upon this sub ject, productions of the various members of the Government, he had found a provision, that upon any rejection of a claim the party aggrieved should have a right to go before the Judge of Assize in order to ob tain redresi. When this matter was discussed in the course of last Session, many arguments had been thrown out to which he was not insensible, suggesting that if the enactments of his Bill were carried the appeals to the Judge would be numerous and common. He bad anxiously tried to find a course which would be equally free from such an objection, and yet give the desired effect, but h a search had been in vain, nor bad he yet heard from any quarter even to suggestion for any Court to be substituted for the Judge of Assize, which would be free from the inconveniences which were alleged against the present system. lie proposed, therefore, that the claimant and the objector should have a mutual appeal to the Judge of Assize, but undoubtedly he was anxious to give some protec tion against frivolous and vexatious appeal, and he had proposed in his Bill that the Judge of Assize should have the power to give limited costs in any case of a !r.volous appeal or objection. Great objections were taken lest session to the power given to the Judge of Assize to award costs against a person claiming the franchise, and having been placed ueon the register by the Assistant Barrister, but he could not see any good reason why both parties should not be put on the same footing, in order that not only the claimant but the public might be rescued from being swamped by fictitious votes ; and if any costs were to be giver. at all, they ought to be g i ve n equally and fairly. Last Session, however, he was very much struck by one point which had been urged, viz. that the persons wh o were, by the sanction of the Assistant Barrister, placed upon the register, ought not to be visited with costs. Now that point had not escaped his attention ; his an swer was, whereas the costs were only to he given iu trivoloue and vexatious cases, no Judge would give costs against any party coming forward with the positive fact of the decisi on o f a J u d g e in his favour.—(A laugh.) However, that th ere m i g ht be no difficulty on this point, he w as perfectly prepared to insert a p r ovision that the party, h e h e w h o he might, who came forward with th e d ec i s i on o f t h e J u dge of the Court below in his favour, should not be visited with costs in a higher Court. He believed the provision unnecessary, but if it removed a difficulty or was considered to remove any hardship, or provided against any inconvenience, he was most anxious that it should be adopted. They did not now stand upon toe same foot ing as l a st y ear , b eca use he must call their attention to a Society containiog the names of a great number of noblemen and gentlemen for whom h e en te r t aine d grea t re spect, and lOr whom h o felt a high personal esteem and friendship—a Society which included in its numbers the names of the Earl of Charlemont, the Earl of Gosford, the Noble Lord the mover of the address to her Majesty on the first day of the sessien. Lord .Heedfort, Sh erman Crawlf)td, and matey ()tees nee , a- s . :e Seeicey ceiling I iieeil the Litoeral A.sossestiers et Loter, rind r hid] 11:4(i I been formed for the express purpose of euteriog into I I lie details, and sifting to the very bottom the registra tion system, in order to make out a ground for the rejection of his Bill a Society consisting of Members professing to he warm and cordial sup• porters of heir Majesty's Government, while they at the same time deprecated the repeal agitation in Ire land. He entertained great respect for the Socieiy, and he would speak of them with that respect, even when he differed from them. Surely, then, he might be allowed fairly to claim them as coadjutors, in what he considered to be a geod work, when they agreed with birn.—(Hear, hear.) They were in favour of an Ex• tension of the Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, end of short ening the duration of Parliaments ; therefore, when he agreed in their opinions, or rather when they agreed with him, he could not be charged with illiberality if he called their opinions to his aid.—(Hear, hear.) He was anxious to show that upon all the leading prin ciples of the Bill, he had the sanction and concurrence of this Liberal Association of Meter. They thought the certificate system ought to be abolished—that was a principle of his 8.11. He wanted a register to be made by the assistant-barrister, upon a due notice given by the claimant, and that he should appear personally or by agent to substentieto his right—their avowed princi ple were the same. There was no part of his Bill upon which he met with so much abuse as upon that point, giving the double appeal to the Judge. He would rend one or two extracts fi cm a Report of the Sub- Committee, and approved of by a General Committee, which was presided over by the Earl of Gosford, wherein they recoenised the very identical principle. ' The Noble Lord here proceeded to read extracts from the Report of the Committee of the Ulster Associa tion, or: the registration of voters, wherein they refused to approve of the English system, because it gave no rneaue of redress either to the cluienaut or to the ohjec tor against an erroneous decision of the registering bar rister, except with reference to a Committee of the House of Commons, or of the Irish system, because it confined the right of appeal to the elaitunnt.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) The Report went on to state that the Committee recommended that the right of appeal on ell points of law for final decision should be extended both to the claimant and objector, and {hat a Court of Appeal should be constituted, be fore which the clairnatit should have such point de cided. There, continued the Noble Lord, were three of the main provisions of his 13.11,—that it was desirable to avoid a reference to a Committee of the House of L'orn mons. Such refeience to a Committee of the House of Commons was utievoidable, unless an appeal tribunal were constituted ; and if they did constitute on appeal t-ibunal, the appal should lie both ways—to the clamant and to the objector. Under the system, as it at present existed in Ireland, the appeal was unswisfactory, and the Felglisla system was unsatisfactory, because Ilia appeal existed neither for one party nor the other. With respect to the appeal being made the subject matter of costs, the plan he proposed wts framed with a view to avoid a reference to a tribunal constituted like a Committee of the House of Commons. In that he concurred with the Liberal Association of Ulster. Now, what were the points on which he d - ffered with that Associa tion ? The ma tern upon which they differed were not of great importance—they were about to be non owed to a single point. He would show to the House that the points upon which they differed were nut such as to throw, with the semblance of justice, the charge upon him of seeking to destroy the franchise, while be professed an in tention to amend the law of registration.—( Hear, hear.) The first of these points was, wheiher the registration should be linnua, as in England, or quarterly, as in Ire. land. He confessed that he had no hesitation whatever on that point. He confessed that he entertained a strong opinion, that if they meant to make the register a decisive document, they could not hesitate about making the regitt tretioo annual, as it W;is in E gland --(Cheers from the Opposition.) Ile had next to point cut to the Ii nose that questions were like.} to arise upon these matters which he hoped would be discussed with calmness. He stood there then as the representative, not of his own opinions merely, but as the representative of the recorded opinions of the House of Commons. It had been decided last session in that House that the annual registry was preferable to the quarterly.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) As regarded the forms of notices a great deal had been said. He had usefully considered that subject; he had looked over the forms of notices, and he had endeavoured to simplify those forms. He would require certain particulars to be proved, and upon the proof of those points should rest the right to be registered, and upon the failure of proof, the removal from the register. What were the costs as pro posed by the Ulster Association ? It was proposed that although costs should be given in favour of the party who had proved his claim to the franchise in the event of the objections raised against his claim being proved to be frivolous and vexatious. Yet in the case of an indivi dual raising objections, of whatever kind, and however well-founded, and being unable to substantiate those objec tions, it was proposed by the Ulster Association, that in all cases of that kind the public magistrates should impose a penalty ; on the other hand, however the frivolous claim might be repeated twenty times over and over, and might be objected to one session after another in succession, and at the end of each period come forward again and again. But however frivolous and absolutely ridiculous that system was in the one case, yet no costs were to be imposed, and she claimant would feel perfectly secure that such would be the case ; but the objector was to be saddled with costs, if he failed to substantiate his case of objection, hews ever well founded it might be. Now, he could not sup. pass that was fair and impartial justice. Ile would pro pose in the one case, that if it was the opinion of the presiding Judge that the objection was frivolous, costs should be given, but not exceeding 51,, and in the other case, not exceeding the amount of expenses to which the opposite party Was put. As that was an important point, and as it was a point that had been raised in discussion in the course of the last Session, and upon which a division had taken place, he wished to call the attention of the House to it, more particularly as he was extremely anxious with regard to it, to see how far he would be enabled to meet the views and wishes of the House. The Right Honourable Gentleman, the Solicitor-General for Ireland, had moved for the insertion of certain words into the clause, which declared that after the Ist November no person would have the right of voting for places in Ireland, except Dublin, unless regis tered according to that Act; that was to say, that all per sons having a right to vote, and holding a certificate which entitled them to be placed on the list of voters, should not be called on to substantiate their claims, but should be liable to objections made by any persons coming forward to question their right to vote. Tne Attorney- General wished the introduction of the words for the pro tection of parties holding certificates, but he (Lord Stan ley) was not sure whether it was his (the Atterney-Go neral's) intention to carry that protection further, and ex tend it to any persons who should afterwards get on the re gister. The words proposed to be introduced into the clause to which he referred were, " That after the Ist of Decem ber, on the making of the registry for any county, city, borough, &c., every person whose name shall be upon the register when so made shall be retained on it, and have-his right to vote continued according to the present law, un less he lose his qualification, or die, or unless the registry be effected by fraudulent means." Sueh was the amend ment proposed to be introduced by the Solicitor-General. As on the one band he (Lord Stanley) came forward to support the views entert. iced by the majority of that House, views in which he was supported by a division, he was ready, as far as a sense anis duty would permit, to bow to the sense of the House as expressed by a large majority equally where it concurred with, as where it was opposed to, his own sentiments ; so, on the other, he could not agree to that amendment if he understood it aright. He did not know whether it was the intention of the Attorney-General to apply the provisions to persons who had obtained certificates by which, according to the present law, they were entitled to vote, or whether it was his intention to say that no party should be placed on the registry unless he were able to show that his claim wile established without being subject to any imputation of fraud. He admitted that in the present arrangement per sons were _subject to re-examination, and in such ease the right to continue on the registry was given to them, unless they were rejected ; but the Right 1-14;h—Gentleman meant to go a step further, and say that no man once placed on the registry should be afterwards liable to any objection for any point which might have been urged against him at the period when he first put forward his claim. To that extent he (Lord Stanley) .could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman, for the certain result would be a multiplicity of fraudulent voters if those. parties who once got on the registry were left there for ever without having their right at any time questioned. 'rho evils of ,he present system would be aggravated by that means, because the privilege of voting would thus last for the natural term of a man's life, and Cult not because he proved that he had pos sessed the rght to vote, nor because the objector had not proved that he did not possess that right, but becau..e in en wer to the objector, he might say, "Truly I do not possess the right of voting, but you have been unable to prove that. If you raised this question when I was first put on the registry, I would not have sue ccede i in establishing my claim, but now you have missed our opportunity, and I am enabled to vote."—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That was not an extreme case— it was a cese which be ( Lord Stanley) knew to have occurred in Scotland, where that very system d oes • prevail, and where instances could be produced of parties at the present moment being on the registry in several counties eehout havi ng a toot of land in these cuunties. Those parties did not p ossess any l an d , b ut be cause their names were once on the registry, no change of circumstances could remove them —( Opposition cheers. ) It was well known to every gentleman in England, Scot land, and Ireland, that the registries w e r e no t ver y c l ose ly watched in some counties, and that many persons at con tested elections were found to be on the registry, who had no right whatever to be there, and yet the collective wis. .dom of that House wise called upon to decide that, because the voters had once got on the Hats, they should continue on them. He ( Lord Stanley) proposed to give thiS pro. tection to a voter wile was placed on the registry, that on the registry he should remain for We, unless a party came forward and substantiated against him a prima facie case of note-qualification. The party attempting to being for ward such a cese, and not establishing it, was to be subject, at the discretion of the Barrister, to costs. lie (Lord Stanley) thought it was right that the voter should have that protection, and he could not depart from that prin ciple so far as to carry the amount of protection to as ab solute prohibition against any inquiry respecting a party placed on the registry. But he had said before lie was willing to bow to the decision of the House as taken upon the motion made be the Solicitor-General on a Report of his, made of the cases of those persons who, up to the present time, had acquired a right to vote. He (Lord Stanley) proposed that those parties having certificates should rema i n on t h e registry, and that after the exeiration of those c,eitifieetes they should comae foriv,wl as fer-,411 claimants in the same tanner as any other p;.r.,-..t0; t t e iee l i ne hi- :s" tl e • tho!. tho had been taken as an objection to his Bill were narrowed! to the notices that should be given, to the forms of claims e seh-ch should be signed, ani to the questioa whether tee registration should be annual or quarterly. The Hous , had already decided in favour of the an; ual registration. Whether the voter should be so fear protected as that the objector who niight lying a strong prima facie case against him, and who should fail in establishing it, should be euv jPC't to costs, was a point to be decided by the House Au other point which he wished to refer to was the notice pf objection which he ( Lord Stanley) proposed, and whirl: was conformable to the English system. The object°, had merely to say, " I object to your name on the reWstcr." Tile words were coped from :.'3( Eeglieh Bill. He did not think he was thus pro- Posing anything grievous. He did not think that it was an unfair pro2ositkn that when the objector sough; to remove a person's name from the regis . .ry, he should eive notice of the objet t'on which he meant to raise. Ile (Lord Stanley) remembered that Mr. Justice Perrin, then Mr. Sergeant Perrin, proposed tb-it a double appeal should be given to the Judge of Assize. There was another power to which he thought it necessary to refer, not because it was in his (Lord Stanley's) Bill, but because he under stood that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Member for Dublin) had said that lie would oppose the introduction of that Bill, provided it contained no provision fir de fining the franchise. He (Lord Stanley) understo o d that before he came down tl the House that Honour aide Gentleman had withdrawn his motion, and he stated that he would move an adjournment. lie (Lord Stanley) v:ished to state to the House that it was not his intention to introduce into the B ll any clause to define the Parlia mentary franchise in Ireland. Ile stated last year to the House that he was quite aware of the inconvenience that would seise from any doubt being thrown on the franchise. He then also stated that he was fully aware of the diffi• cultic: which he would have to encounter were he to mix up the question cf the franchise with the laws affecting the registration, and upon the • fullest consider‘Con which he had given to that question he caner, to the determination that if he • wished to carry his Bill it was indispensable that he should separate these two questions, and that course was in the last Session sanctioned by the Government them selves, who introduced not one Bill for the registry and fran chise, but one Bill, as his, for the case of registration, and reserved the franchise fur ddeusder, in a separate Bill. He bed not only the high authority of Ministers on that sub j.:et, but also the audit:6:37..4214e House itself; because the question - of mixing up th4 s registry and the franchise was discussed end decided in the House of Cenamoes during the course of the last Session. The motion had been made by the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin, and the House had concurred in his (Lord Stanley's) view of the case ; her Majesty ' a Ministers, the Noble Lori the Secretary for the C lunies, and the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, with the Attorney- General end many of her Mejssty's Government, voting in the minority', had approved of the question Lasing kept seperatc, end the numbers, on the &vision, were 162 and 311, the latter being the number of those wh:, thought it inexpedient that these, two Tiestions should be united together. He was very sensible of the great in ! converdenee arising from the difference of opinion enter ' tained by the Judges on the question of the franchise. Ile regretted that difference, but those who differed from the majority on the Bence were, he had no doubt, actuated by conscientious motives. lie (Lord Stanley) Was con vinced that in the present state of the Huuse and of parties, if he wished to introduce a clause which would absolutely debsr him of the possibility of passing that or any such Bill in the present Session of Parliament, he had only to introduce a c:ause seeking to d, flue the franchise in the sen , e in which he took it. lie was even csrt:in that Gentlemen on the other side of the House would find it equally impractic-able to introduce a Bill defining the franchise in any other ssnse than that in which it bad been hitherto tied- rstood.— ( Hear, hear.) He confessed lie would flinch from the task. It would so complicate the measure he was about to intro duce, render so intricate that which was sufficiently dif ficult in itself, that that Sessioe would pass over like Ile last, and be a mere •eflux of time, and the undeniable abuses of the present system would continue one yeer more, with merely the prospect of the revival of the pre sent discussion. He would, therefore, adhere to the de termination that he had come to last year, not to insert any clause of that nature. He would keep the question separate. He vo..s quite willing and ready to &scuss all the provisions of that Bill (if he would obtain leave to introduce it) with all respect to the arguments which might be brought forward un either side, and to those who might seek to controvert it by argument, and ready also to bow to the decision of the House if adverse to him. Lord MORPETH said his Noble Friend could not withstand the temptation, although the Government had given notice of its intention.—( Hear, hear, from Air. O'Connell, followed by ironical cheers, and laughter from the Tory benches.) Although her Majesty's Government had given notice in the very first week of the open ing Session to bring forward a Bill on the subject, his Noble Friend had shown himself so enamoured of that subject, and so gratified with his reception and his progress during the course of the last Session—(Ministerial cheers) —with the several majorities he had obtained, and with the carrying of twelve clauses in the course of four months —(Cheers and laughter)—that he had shown himself determined not to be forestalled, and would have the plea sure of having the first word on the subject. He was not at all disposed to dispute that priority, and he was not will ing, atter the very temperate and moderate manner in which his Noble Friend had brought forward the subject— (" Hear, hear," from the Tory benches)—he was not willing to fell in courtesy with his Noble Friend any more than to any other Honourable Member, because certainly in the course of last Session his Noble Friend had ob tained very important success and over whelmirig plaudits, and ho was not therefore disposed to offer any opposition to his motion for leave to bring in the Bill_(Hear, hear) —not doubting that the Noble Lord, arid those who sup ported him, would extend the same accommodation to him (Lord Morpeth) when lie moved for leave to bring in the measure of the Government.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Having thus stated the course he intended to pursue, and considering that on that occasion he should have a fall opportunity of explaining the views of Government on the subject of the registration of voters in Ireland, he did not feel himself called on to make any lengthened observations on the subject.—( Hem., hear.) There were only two things he should state, for the sake of obviating any misappre hension. From the statements of the Noble Lord he col lected, that although he admitted of some slight modifi catiens, yet that the main principles and provisions of the 13111 remained unaltered; that he still retained the annual revision even upon the points that might be decided once a year; and that upon points which bad been annually decked the voters were liable to be annually called up ; that he still retained the appeal both ways to the Judge of Assize against as well as in favour of the franchise ; and the Noble Lord fortified himself with a consistency of opinion in these particulars eith the Ulster Aesociation, the report of whose proceedings he largely quoted from. He (Lord M.) imagined that upon a close examination of the details of the plans recommended by the Noble Lard and the Ulster Association, there would be by no means found that similarity of views upoe which his Noble Friend reckoned —( Hear, Lear.) The Association of Ulster did not recommend an appeal both ways in matters of fact, and they did not recommend it without settling and defining the franchise. However if the Noble Lord wag inclined to take the regulations of that Association, there would be the less ground of dif ference. However that might be in conformity with the notice that had been given, he should ask the House to concur in a Bill to amend the laws regarding the quelifi hation as well as the t egistration of voters in Leland, ; end he hoped on that occasion to be able to show the hitillw and his Noble Fiiend, that in perfect consistency with eiery thing that had been done and said before on that branch of the subject—that it would not be expedient to effect - harry material alteration in the present system of registration, such as the Noble Lord would recommend, nor anything involving the constitution of a new appellate jurisdiction, without first explaining and defining the franchise. Guard. ing himself upon these two points, he should offer no fur ther opposition to the motion of the Noble Lord, while he reserved to himself and his colleagues the right of future action upon all the future stages of the Bill.--( Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL considered himself by no means bound by any compromise between the Noble Lords on both sides of the House.—( Hear, hear.) He did not in the least stand there belonging to any party on the ques tion—he stood there on behalf of the people of Irelansi ( Ironical cheers.) The House and the country might naturally feel somewhat surprised at the fact, if it vt not too manifest, that the Noble Lord, in a prepared spe. fi made with great deliberation, and making out the strongest case for himself, and in order, as lie said, to put an end to the multiplication of fictitious votes in Ire land (for that was his object), had omitted to give the House some idea of what the number of these fraudulent voters was.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not tske up the statistics of Ireland, and say here arc 100,000 inhabitants with 23, or 10, or four thousand voters, constituting an overwhelming number of voters claiming the franchise in proportion to the aggregate number of the people. That would be a fair way of investigating the question. Why did he not take Cork, and say here are 713 : 000 inhabitants, and tell the House how many voters were registered in the county ? Why, there were but 3,801) voters on the register, and the utmost of them that could vote were 3,600. Why had he not celled upon the House to remedy that? It was overwhelming, it was over powering, there must be fraud, there must be " villainous perjury," for that was the phrase of last Ses sion —( Loud tries of " Oh, oh," from the Tory benches.) Perhaps the Noble Lord did not say it, but somebody said it for him.—(oh, oh, and laughter.) What was meant by those interruptions ?—( Hear, hear.) He had " beastly bellowings" last year, perhaps they would be renewed in the present Session. He was showing the country and the House what it was that called for the vigilenee of the Noble Lord. Cork had a phpulation of 713,000, and the rural population of Wales was 710,000; the latter had 30,000 voters, while Cork, with the greater number of in habitants, had not more than 3,800; yet that was the apt: cm that required to be watched over. The Irish, it appeared, had too many votes. Let them contrast it with the English representation. and then tell him if that were equal justice. The sole thought of the Noble Lord by day and his dream by night when he was in office, ended in the miserable abortion by which he bad swindled the people of Ireland cut of their votes by the kind of franchise he gave them. He was the author—it was he that brought in the 8.11. He was required to give the people of Ireland the English mode of registry, and that was tt hat he gave them, and it had even worked badly, because the franchise had not been defined. He ( Mr. O'Connell) would not aliow that Bill to come be fore that House without exposing its hollowness and mockery, and the paucity of voters in Ireland as compared with that of England. By the returns that had been laid upon the table of the House, it appeared that in the registration of 1832 the number of voters in Ireland was net 5 per cent of the male adult population, while in England it was full 20 per cent., and when they had the returns of the lest registry from. Ir land, it would be round there a dirniitttion of cell 'feast,, cod a note le- . m a n who was well acquainted formoi 11 . 110 that it would Le nearer Zit; per - cent. The Noble Lord's measure was a mockery, and was far mere distinguished for cunning than for fairness. Notice bade been given by the Government for a to amend tne, registration of voters, which would have been introeueueln en the previous night but for tho accident o f therefor` g . 1 3 e: 4 no h the e a c N el o a b l l t e ho L u Latching fur him, and t og o rh o d noticekbacda care seomt o h ea a rn d et cp b iep e c e at n :eb g ite i h v ag e t n e nmtioet;; Why not give the Government an opport u nity of bilog"'h pose ? Oh, no, the Noble Lord had his poc ket pisi pur th a ' ferward its measure, which might have answered the the Ulster Constitutional Association, who little 'be fee total want of candour with which they were tOl Ca He thought it highly improper to have that wh,..106a0 brought forward in such a manner, and that the 1-1 ' i • was entitled to have that Government measure bore previously to the Noble Lord asking for leave to bringth', his Biil. If he were disposed to feel any sorrow at . 5 .! teultittsclineus attendance of that night, or to congratina....ht the Noble Lord on the enthusiasm of his foliowers. (Loud Opposition cheers.) He was glad he gad pro le yoked that shout, for it would show the Pe U N of Ireland, how little they had to expect from that fl39! e a , —( Ironical deem s.) Whatever became of them must rely upon themselves and their own exertions, he.l every act and exhibition of enmity to that peoples an every attempt to lessen their franchise was a hew ergti, e t a ment to those who thought that the connection hew the two countries was not on a basis of justice odei34; which ought to be permanent.—( Cheers from th e h Members.) He thought the House should pause, aldwuto he feared it would not, and not allow allow the Bill to , brought in before the measure of the o , c er ; :font was on the table. Protesting W in " gen vexation of the Noble Lord's Bill —demanding Inn the House, it there were any bond of un T that they should have the benefit of it, and without p roost 0 into the details of the meas ur e, he must enter his , against a plan which ga ve them the worst pa rt of. taptt English system of regi s t ra ti on . If they meant to bto the people of both countries, and of Ireland especiallrh consider the Union as binding, they must give them kin i g t ; lel) rights and liberties.—( Cheers.) Let them nolt ig , the people of Ireland the Noble Lord's vexatious ref, for Lion. Why had not the .Noble Lord brought in a 13111 0 i ? England when the s)stcm was so much conipleined Ile cted not to amended registration, hut to the ohce'r.. the Noble Lord, which was to aim a blow at the ( ll ties of Irelan I ; and being determined to meet foot, he should now move that the debate be adjourns afte the 4th instant. Mr. HUME seconded the motion, Mr. S. O'BRIEN said there was nothing in T he r o st :e tc ; ment of the Noble Lord that surprised him. T he Lord had last year stated that he had no political or P' i d vices whatever in bringing forward the measure, b " r o ' t jet . he had taken the very first opportunity , w it ° a , waiting to ace what the measure of the Governme nt and bad evinced his determination to make the q„, j et Lion a regular party struggle. Although the Gove r " - a c to bad at tee very earliest period announced its intentiob djournc , bring forward the subject, 'the Noble Lord b il im ad ' t ° , ‘l l a .t , i,l,l I piece of jockeyship net in very good taste, taken a n t o e cage of that motion to interpose his own in the fir s dea n stereo. He did nut think the Noble Lord had t ee ftnrly with the document hich had been issued by it it Ulster Association, and he doubted very much wh et t ,- i - of was his re a l i n t en ti on t o ma k e t h at R e p o rt the hah a j ee t his Bill. Ile wish e d t o p o i n t ou t t o the Gove rl ; ',.l e si the expediency and wisdom of extending the pro t he of the measure whi c h th e y were about to introduce "d g io amendment of the Act f o r the Registration of V ete r of Eagiand, to Irel a nd, as i t wou ld do away with g n—i tbs the jealousy and discontent that existed o n Ile other side of the Ceannel.—( Hear, hear.), t he . ; threw these remarks out for the corisideratien (with Geverninent as the r esu d of considerable reflection. 'hie regard to the definwon of the franchise it seemed I° f the that they were determined to regard the del cts c lfean a Reform Bill as sacred.—( H ea r, h e ar ) Na ' n ' .. g tiOt i y i hers of the opposite side h a d th rown ou t anngg with respect to the qualification. The Ilan. I ‘ l l, - i e c was th, n underetood to state hi s v i ews upon thii sahhg e g f and to ray he thougid it should be based upon t he ' o - eat under the Poor-law Act, but from the great noise ta b, prevailed in the House during the whole of his s P re' they were aitegether inaudible, in the gallery. ri 'd i blier commended his Hen. Friend th e M em ber for m g s ir' riot to press his motion, as h e th oug h t un der exist l ' e ' vumstences it would be unavailing to do re. e ige• Lord JOHN RUSSELL s a id he confessed big ° ;;' t to, tion to the measure which the Noble Lord had °U° th e ' introduce last S e s s i on , was b ut li tt l e di m inished- I* e s% statement which th e N o bl e L or d h a d ma d e o f the p r . e ," o of measure, which seemed to him, with the exe e P tl' seni e some particul ars , t o b e, i n i ts ma i n f eature s, the ne Bill, and calculated t o produce the same celarnit°nshrell eurostances which it had appeared to him would ha ve / WI the result cf th e enac t ment i nto a l aw o f the Bill tril l „ l b ; year.—(Ch eers .) H e must own, can didly, Noble Lord had s t a t e d hi s case ver y f a irly; Ye t I SO, certainly somewhat sing u l ar on th e part of th e f Lord, that whil e th ere were man y abuse/ ° de 0 kinds in the re g i s t ra ti on sys t em , i n the ° l° pit voting, and in the practice of elections In, t ests land, Scotland, and Ir e land—that while all oils, I existed in En g l an d an d S co tl an d, and tha t ve t 01 ' those in Scotland the Neble Lord bad dwelt up?o,4e re' these he had passed by, and it wa s the abuses to 'N e ttl° gietration system of Ireland which called for the eel Lord's especial attention, and made him anxious, all moment of thesessioi, to provide a remedy for, le s , v o l ," r l ° the others in full vigour without attempting 01 '; 01 remedy or palliate them.—(Cheers.) He n'ubp's to I.kewise that although there were many *b us " 11 1 ) the registration system of Ireland, that although h e •a e : 0 not deny the statements made as well on the one S i eel the other, yet ho did view with considerable jealoel est alarm a meas ur e f or re f orm i ng t h ese a b us es, wh ie e tios sought to be enacted en ti re ly with a view to the re sit { tbs of the franchise.—( Cheers. ) This was the Froiti, t e b o li 4 Bill of 1829, brought in for the cenceseion of the D oes', claims, and which was a s t r i ngent measure of dis c l l2 / 3 ill°' Lion.—(Cheers.) It was also the spirit of o° , o , 1832; and the Noble Lord again considered this "' a - nes; with a view to remedy abuses which might ha ve r - r r and to granting franchises which might be neeesssn3l,/ not of altering the restrictions of the Bill ° f or es (Cries of " He ar , h ear .") Aft er th e se two In -a n s , the Noble Lord proposed a measure on the to T be of restriction, a n d t o narrow t h e f ranc hi se s gr ant oe bi° people Ireland som e fifty y ears ago , so as to disfraodeos the people of Ir e land. It mi g ht b e qu it e right to W i r t , et 4 a Bill on the subject, but it behoved the Hou se dto sr° most narrowly to the provisions of such a Bid , a° tak e : clearly whet would be the effect of all it s provisi eng hloh l together.—(Hear, hear.) He remembered hi s o gle: Friend the late Lord D ur h am , i n di scuss ing som e ,h r oog b ; tions on the 101 franchise in England, which h° , too numerous and too apt to be vexatious, said, say every man who is a 101. hou se h o ld e r shall ba ys - ,env but sou may add that he shall also be able to e°-gth' the fired hook of Homer," intimating that TP° Pei chise might, in fact, be c on fi ne d to a , 5 , 1 ,1 sons, althought it might seem to be a to t:" / 47 °'': exrended franchise —( Hear, hear, hear.) Th e proposed to continue the franchise to I foo l ' isted, by proposing that the franchises should heortrtso chises defined by the C o u r ts of L a w, whose ujointil course, as he hid already observed (without (P a the Judges any political bias, b u t on ly the ter iden e, ' o ey 1 the authorities of the Courts of Law), was O c h r e fr° l , restrict, by technical distinctions and d e fieitionsr T'l a er.dr. curses whic'i existed, either by common law or s T " ( Hear, hear.) It was thus that the largest wor: is te its",i charters, " our communities." " burgesses (",.. „lb, h i t° " community of our said town of Bath." arid so r e' r b •en in the course of time restricted to s °) 10 ' os thirteen persons.—( Loud cheers ) N" vi ' l e tten E r wished to part with a lt con t ro l over these ° 1- e th o l if they wished to pass a Bill to Which these nes, House of Parliament wo u ld not g i ve i ts con sents th to be a Bill in.which these f r a nc hi ses were in - fut s 'f defined and settled by th e J u d ges o f t h e Court' -the"; for if the franchises were to b e th us su bmitted to it , O il cision of the Judges, he could well imagine th r ti r 6 0 .1 long course of time they would be limited to a 1110 5 11 f class of persons.—(Hear, hear.) . It was very w e ret'' that when a man has not a vote, because he does no te P b e possess the estate which by the law he was me an- 0 0 " r e sess, and yet by fraud is placed upon the regist ee t ' e eec t ° ,l should be taken off; but they must, on their part , te te tr t ,, that, in erecting a barrier against the fraudole° tope did not also erect a barrier against the real b° l7 , te e s; voter.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now how l a f fi to b i ds to exercise the franchise, who, conceiving hire se te a voter in Ireland, but happening not to be connebet any strong, and wealthy, and powerful landlord, th' i t ding 0' on his own independent property, and who Tea „ a te. te Acts of 1829 and 1832. conceived that he had a went to the Assistant-Barrister, w h o a llowed g ej tci . was then appealed against, end put to the expen se o re: to the Judge of Assize. Th a t J u d ge m ight "Lalio" e r. had an opinion in his fa vour , an d hi s vote mig ht '; l ea eo tiler', but the same pr ocess was to b e repeat", n 0t t° ` t , 4 f t He might find an A ss i s t ant- B arr i ster, or if he (linos assize town, he might find a Judge, who P u t ` g ate g ti il ent interpretation upon the law, whoso ° dee r be •tho fiecholder might be enabled to follow, and KO' te , that ho had no vote ; and thu s , a f ter co nsidera h ' - his 1° s• found himself deprived of the power of giving, 0411 He ( Lord John Russell) said that when I n t l, °`' e boors saw that—when they saw that T o derglo result of his labour was that he had I. ' to co l ' o t great loss of time and trouble, and had been Pu t reer' re . &treble expense—had been sent before three. or ba d Po five, six, seven, or eight Judges, and that they 5, riVt Old, nounced learned, subtle, and intricate diequhti ti°° J I nt ended in depriving their neighbour of his vote, sen d !en time, and trouble, he (Lord Julio Russell) alto though their votes might be excellent in lass, the ' ti oe l 1) be thus discouraged and prevent e d from eT h t o exercise them.—( Hear, hear.) H e (Lord J°,7 r el's Y je• said this would be the eff e ct o f the Noble He did net say there might n o t be certain cas e ' s ' t oi os ee li that there might not be either cases of fraud 0r a d'"he but be did say that these might be corrected ' a ne ttli more simple manner, and that if they wished t° ohq ib.a whole question he.believcd they would find it imP li peef oa do so tranquilly, and, above all. with justice te t d e ef ue''.,ss of Ireland, unless they took into consideration th'osechlths of franchises. Was it not a great evil to gi v i e d 0 0 .4 to the people of Ireland, and that they slo u „' oe h 1 8 Y 10 Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's 1 ":100 ri e d down the law in one manner and the Cl e ' e n e r,'' e g' ;soother ?—( Hear, hear. ) Wes nut this an e; c d P o i when the ( Noble Lord entirely pratterouillhote to e land and Scotland, and had given his ,;* snit - sole attention to Ireland, was it too much t r . hio' o if he did not choose to do it in this Bill —or le t , oc h e liked, bring in a separate Billbut was it t°' t „ tr', gr o say that this system of franceise ought likewite (l' o a tied ?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord said ths T ro nee h ee J. Russell) stated that the questions of reg i ' t d e af t o te qualification ought to be separated. He did "t b l e to , but he had found that it was perfectly imP° lsi ropier tbe the franchise in a separate Bill and to fram e . be bs tion Bill solely relating to that subject. That rn ' ig itet :n right ceurse. end wag the tole Test )".. nt.. 2- he ( Lord . 1 rho Russell) sa;d net , they otqbt kut - 11, tiviy ere; glV;tue; A I cmcll , to ea rid' in iact g all that. was done west to • foie' plete system of registration, and to narr° P7 thu MORN ING ED ITIOr2-' t xPe; hi a d e t he h, i wi t h 41 4)3 in que Altee g,entl Wad e bu ry deck 'rho, of t tick to