The Sun. — London, England, 1819-06-03 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT. lIOUSE OF COMMONS, JUtiE 2. On ibis day the SPEAKER took the chair a few minutes before tour o'clock, and the House re• assembled pursuant to the order of adjournment from Thursday last. Mr.Griffiths, from the Court of Common Pleas, presented en Account of the Number of Attor nice practising; at that Catirt,- , -Laitl on the table. Mr. GoWham, from the Chamber of the City of London, presented an Account of the Duties received on Wines.—Laid on the table. Mr. Patstaosa presented ei petition from the Bnrgh of Queensferty, signed by 3-4ths of the Burgesses, end praying that the operation of the Lord Advocate's Bill might not be extended to them.—Orderred to be referred to the Committee on the Royal Bure.,hs of Scotland. Air. G. LAMB brought in a Bill, which was reed a first lime, and the title of which was " A Bill to facilitate proceedings against..the Warden of the Fleet Prison it time of vacation.“ ABEtoCeoSIBY presented a petition from curtain Agents practising in the Insolvent Debtors' Court, praying to be heard by Counsel against that obtuse of the BA which provides for the due qualification of persons acting in that copacity„ The Member, in moving that the petition should lie upon the table, observed, that in con sistency with his known opinions he could not suppoit tie prrtyer of it. Mr. HUME presented two petitions, praying for some further retorm in the present system of ad tnioistet log the Affairs of the Royal Scottish Bo rOng hi. The one was from the Borough of In verary, and the other from the City of Aberdeen. The !elite► stated, that it was hoped by the peti tionets that their case would be considered de serving of peculiar attention. They had had one Re presentative in Conned. but he had no knowledge of the progressive accumularion of a corporate debt amounting to 230,0001.--Ordered to be plinted. Colonel BARRY gave notice of a motion fur Tuesday next, relative to the subject of Conti°. • verted Elections in Ireland. The Scotch Clutches' Bill then passed through a Committee, and the Report was ordered to be teceived on Monday. CANIELFORD ELECTION. Mr. BANK ES suggested, that it would be an ar rangement Of much convenience to the House, it the Order of the Day for takirig the Camelford Election Petition into consideration to-morrow were discharged, and fixed for Tuesday next. Mr. CALVERT observed, that this arrangement had been proposed before, and declined. He wished to know whether the Hon. Member had had any communication with the petit inners, as it seemed fair to wait till their consent was oscertained. Mr. 111. A. TAYLOR having entered the House, it was agreed that the order should be postponed till Tuesday. The order for the attendance of Defaulters to morrow was also discharged, and appointed for Tuesday. The Parishioners' Evidence Bill was read a second time. PUBLICANS' LICENCES BILL. BENNETeXpreSSed his wish that the Publi- cans' Licenses Bill might heallowed to pass through committee, pro . forrnc, several clauses having been omitted, and other alterations made, for the purpose of being printed, and recommitted, at which stage of its progress the whole subject might be fully considered. He move& there fore, that the bill be now committed. Mr. CROKER stated, that he had received seve ral petitions and representations, setting forth the propriety of extending with some modifica tion the principle of this measure to Ireland. The bill then passed through the Committee. and the Report being brought tip, was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Wednes day next. NAVY ESTIMATES. The House having resolved itself in a Com• mittee of Supply, on the motion of Mr. LUSH• INGTON. Sir G. WARRENDBR stated, that in proposing the Navy Estimates, he should not enter into any long details. The Committee of Finance had dis cussed every item so minutely, that his task would be reduced to a mere mention of the stints wanted. He should, at the same time, keep himself in readiness to answer any questiou which might be asked, or any observation which might be start ed. lie sbo.i:ri only add, that the reductions in the Navy had never been carried to a greater ex tent than they were by the present Estimates. He then moved, that a sum not exceeding 2,433,0131. 12s. id. be granted to his Majesty for the ordinary establishment of the Navy in 1819. Mr. CALCRAFT complained of the recommenda tion of thQ Finance Committee to put down the Naval Asylum, whilst the Military Asylum was allowed to subsist, and even to pass unnoticed. fle feared that the suggestion had been adopted by his Majesty's Ministers, for when the Navy was concerned they were economical enough. If there were any Estimates, the amount of which be felt disposed to increase, it was those for the Navy. He did not consider the number of men voted for that service sufficient. It was in ull 20,000 ; but of these only 14,000 were sailors. The rest were marines. In former times the votes for the two services bad been co-extensive. But at present all proportions were disregarded, and we bad an airily of 100.000 men, with a navy of only 20,000 ! He wished to know whether it was determined to adopt a new system altogether, and to abandon what usedAO be called the Wooden Walls of Old Englia." lie reprov ed the contiartance of the Lay Lords of the Ad- . miralty at time when it was neceesar.r to di minish the brirthens of the people. He could not conceive that the House would•vote any new tax till sufficient reductions bad been made in the public expenditure; and he should never• agree to grant one shilling till that enormous sum of 11,000,0001. at the head of the Finance account, 11.. d been thoroughly sifted. Much economy might take place in the collection of the Re 'Mlle. lie untler3tuod that the Board of Excise proposed to Govc:nment to culicct the C 419- toms at a very reduced rate. The Excise Duties were now collected at the rate of 51. las. 6:1. per cent., and those of the Customs at that o f 11l 19s. sd. per cent. A saving to the amount of nearly one-half would therefore be effected if the proposal of the Excise was accepted. But in Ire land k was still worse. The Customs were now collected in that country at the enormous rate of 211 183. per cent. He trusted that those mat ters would be duly investigated, and that the , ea.y and immense saving thus held forth would not he lost to the country. To the present grant he should not object, any more than to the Esti mates themselves. Sir G. WARRENDER explained, that far from having put down the Naval Asylum, the Resolit tion note in the Cloth roan's hands included a sum of 14,0001. for that establishment. 'rhe Com mittee of Finance had, it was true, recommended its abolition, and Ministers might take into future consideration the proptiety of diminishing its ex pence ; but it was their intention to maintain the establishment itself. The Hon. Gentleman had complained that a larger naval force had not been proposed, but the present was considered fully equal to the wants of the country. Let it not be imagined that our naval establishment was in a state of decay. It was placed on such a footing, that whenever the occasion might require, our navy could be immediately restored to a state of vigour and activity. A naval armament could al ways be brought forward with more rapidity than a military one. It must also be considered that the fleets of all other nations had been annihila•ed during the course of the late war. Less, there fore, was required 00 our part. But he repeated that the British nAvy had never been in such a state, to be immediately restored to all its power and efficiency, as at present. In the condition of our finances, could any thing more be required ? Sir M. \V. RIDLEY agreed, that it money ought to h e v o t e d for any establishment, it should be for the Naval Asylum. roen had double the sum been proposed, it should have hail his support.-- When he saw an expenditure of 39,0001. for the Military Asylum passed over without any observa int' from the Committee of Finance, he could not help charging that Committee with a great fault in having recommended the abolition of the Naval Asylum. lle agreed with the suggestion that the State should not educate more sailors than were necessity for our own service ; but it was ridicu lous to apprehend that the knowledge of French would inspire them with a disposition to abandon our set vice. As long as he should find tiro or three useless offices, even in the present estimates, he should not consent to vote one shilling in ad dition to the public hurthens. He then com plained of the Lay Lords of the Admiralty, and contended, that the Navy Board had not attended to the recommendation of the Committee, that no vacancies should be filled up. He concluded by moving, That 200,0001. should be deducted from the grant proposed. Lord CoairToN objected to the Amendment now brought forward on a subject which bad al ready been so lolly discussed, because it might ap pear in a party light, and for the purpose of em barrassing the measures of Government. He should therefore decline giving it his support. — He admitted, at the same time, that the public had an undoubted right to demand every possible retrenchment from his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. S. DOUGLAS rejoiced that the forms of the House allowed Parliament to reconsider a vote formerly given, and obtained by surprise, in con ' sequence of a declaration made by a gallant Ad miral, that the services of the Lay Lords of the Admiralty were absolutely necessary. In conse quence of the Report of the Bank Committee, the House had agreed to make a proper alteration in the system of our currency. It bore the most promising appearance, but all agreed that it must be accompanied with a kind of tax on the coun try, and a considerable degree of difficulty and pressure. It was also 'known, that in order to ' carry this alteration Ito() effect, the Ri g ht H on. Gentleman opposite would propose new taxes at the beginning of the next week, and amongst the rest (tor the public were much misled on the sub ject), one which the Right Honourable Gentle man had himself voluntarily abandoned as con trary to the welfare of the country. In such cir cumstance', it was a most important right, that which enabled the House to reconsider every pos sible retrenchment. The case of the Lay Lords of the Admiralty, though comparatively trifling, should not be omitted. In proportion as the expences of the late war had exceeded those of all former contests, ought the retrench ments of the present peace exceed all former retrenchments. He was aware, at the same time, that it was impossible to effect such re ductions as would materially diminish the bur thens of the people. All that could be done was to teach it to bear them with patience, and that could not be accomplished without showing every disposition to curtail the public expenditure. lie should ask the gallant Admiral opposite, on his seputation in his profession and in society, to come forward and state whether the presence of the Lay Lords of the Admiralty was really neces sary to the public service. Could that be ima gined, when it was known that one of the lion. Baronets who filled those situations had last year spent five months in Bedfordshire, and the other as long a portion of time in Edinburgh ? It was said that their continuance was sa\tctioned by the Finance Committee. He hoped those Commit tees had been sufficiently damned in the public opinion to have lost all their influence. But that would certainly be the case, when it was seen that they suffered the Lay Lords to remain, and recommended the abolition of the Naval Asylum; not because that establishment was useless or too expensive, but because the country was in such a state of exhaustion, as not to be deemed capable of ❑iaintainingg the helpless orphans bequeated to her charity and her gratitude by her defenders ! lie and his friends had been accused of calling for paltry savings ; but what were their propositions in comparison of the recommendation of that packed Committee ? The Opposition objected to granting 10,0001. a-year to the Duke of York, and 5,0001. to the Lay Lords of the Admiralty ; and why ? Because it wished to apply those sums to the support of establishments like. the Naval Asylum. For what purvose should we keel; cur navy To tight the armies of the Continent. When he was told that we must maintain H krgc standing army because other natiuns maintained them. he recognized one of those maxims issuing front the Continental schools, and brought by the Noble Lnrd.at the head of the Foreign Department to degrade our policy. Sir G. CoLBURN COtild not admit the, fairmits* of calling upon him as a private and public charac ter, to state whether the services of this or that individual were of any value, Ile had no objec tion, however, to stake his reputation as a public and private titan, on the declaration that he did be lieve it •absolutely necessary for the public service that the Board of the Admiralty should be constitut ed as it now was. Ile was positively of opinion, that if the Board were reduced, the public service would be injured. With respect to what had been said concerning a pretended preference in favour of the military, it ought not to be for gotten, that solders, when discharged, had no employment whatever; sailors, on the contrary, immediately entered into the merchant service.— As a proof of this, the Admiralty had much ((A cuity in procuring the number of sailors tequisite to man the ships kept on active service. Daring the war, the merchant vessels had been worked by foreigners, who had now been discharged, and British seamen employed in their stead. Mr. F. DOUGLAS had not inquired whether the Navy Board, as at present constituted, was useful to the public service, but whether the gallant Admiral could state that the two Lay Lords were absolutely necei.sary ?—To this inquiry the gallant Ptdmiral had in fact made no reply. The Committee then divided- - For the Amendment Against it Majority against the Amendment ----q7 The original HA:solution was then put and agreed to, _ Sir G. WAattENnER then moved, that a sum not exceeding 1,631,6281. be granted to his M jesty for building and repairing ships of war in his Majesty's and Merchants' Yards, over and above what was proposed to be done under the head of wear and tear for the present year. Mr. Llomit objected to the proposed sum of 55,0001. for . .volks at Bermudas, Jamaica, and Trincomalee, on the grounds that no estimates had been laid before — the Committee. He also %visited to know whether the sum of 40801. fot the Board of Longitude teas a new vote, and in tended to be annual. He concurred with the re commendation of the Committee, that the Naval Asylum should be abolished, though he should have thought th►e Military Asylum should have been the first to experience that fate. He hoped, that now the country was about to return to cash payments, that all salaries would be reduced and allowances to what they were in 1797, before the Restrictions had taken place. If that were done, no new taxes would be necessary. In a short time he should move for a comparative statement of public salaries in 1797, and in the present times, and should - propose that the deduction be made quarterly. He concluded by moving, that the sum of 55,0001. for works at Bermudas, &c. be left out of the proposed grant. Mr. CRoKER explained, that the works in ques tion were not new ones, but had been in pro. gross many years. If a certain Estimate of the ex pence bad not been laid before the Committee, it was because the necessity of pushing hen to a particular extent must depend on our political re lations. Ile should regret the omission of this sum, as no works were more important than those carrying on at Bermudas. The Hon. Gerd wan must have the goodness to confide a little in his Majesty's Ministers, and to believe that they would not go beyond the necessities of the case. If he looked into the Estimates for former years, he would find that larger sums had been demanded for the same purpose. The 40001. to the Board of Longitude Were an old and an 'annual vote, and he believed no money could he better applied. The Hon. Gentleman talk.d Ye y lightly Q i f abo lishing fhe Naval Asylum ; but he did not know that it had been establiShed by private charity, whose contributions amounted to 100,00 W., The pubilc had taken the charity, and also the 100,000 1 . The establishment could not there fore he abolished without a breach of good faith and honesty. The Amendment was then negatived, and the original Resolution agreed to without a division. Sir G. WARRENDIM then proposed a sum of 419,3191 for troops and garrisons on foreign stations, and for extra wearand tear. Sir M. W. RIDLEY, on comparing the present with former Estimates, found that 54,0001. were demanded for the Yard at Deptford, whilst the original EStimate last year was only 34,0001. On the Estimate for Woolwich there was also an in crease of 12,0001. i and on that for Chatham of 5,5001. But the most important of all was for the works of Sheerness. The original Estimate in 1818 was 433,8001., of which 170,0001. had been granted ; 553,8001. were now demanded, so that the whole would amount to 733,8001. These things required explanation. Mr. CHOKER stated, that the increase in the esti mate for Deptford was in consequence of the ne cessity which had arisen to rebuild instead of patching up the old walls which were 100 years old. As to Sheerness, it would have been impos sible, without an actual oculi inspecta, to form a correct opinion of the expellee required. The ex• CC39 was produced by the difficulty of working in strong chalk grounds, which the French calltel trovaillees. With respect to the increase iu ihe charge for Woolwich, it arose from the necessity of changing the line of the Wharf walls. Twenty five thousand pounds a year had sometimes been voted to remove the mud from the Woolwich yard : but by altering a little the course of the river, and removing the mod with machines, the ,bed of the river had already been deepeurd, and much future expellee would be saved. The Resolution, having then been agreed to, Sir G. WAHRENDER moved, that 76,1,321/. be granted for the Transport Service in 1319.. Sir M. W. Rumev urged the claims of those Cl er ks who, having passed through their exami nation, and acted for years in the capacity of parsere, were tillable to audio that rank, and the ball-pay which it conferred, in consequence of an Order in Council. lie thought that an applica lion to the Prince Regent might procure a re ; Bli*Sl43/1 of that order iu Ebel: Lc:Leif. He trusted their service; not be dis'Ci-4 , ardcd by Howe ;in i it no one undertook the task, e`' pressed his intention of propusiog, at stithe fount; opportunity, an Address to the Prince Regent ott the subject. Sir G. COLBURN stated, !hal with regard to at Navy rut sers, it tcgulalioll pr,)gt tVbiCI I would place them on the same fottilsg as wile; Officers. Mr. CHOKER regretted extremely that due to tention to economy shookd not allow the services of the individuals to tvhffin the lion. Baronet had alluded to be properly rewarded. Their case, however, was not clearly understood. By fortner regulations, the number of nut sers in the oasl was limited to the number of ships of war. 11 : a ship were lookers up, no purser could he made until a new vessel hail been built. As malty ships had been broken up during the war, and it would have beets hard for individuals to be deerived vt their support, they were entered, out of charity, on the cheek of the yhrd, and received about 15s 1 ! day. 'riots as many pursers had been ere aril as vessels had been broken up. This system hall afterwards been abolished, and they 1)4(1 beets placed on half•pay ; receiving, at the lowest, R 9 much as an Ensign on half-pay in the army, ati ,l at the highest, as much as a Lieutenant its the seine sittovion in the navy. This regulation bail been adopted on the express condition that the old system should be restored as soon as possible , and that no more pursers should be made until their number shortie have ceased to exceed the number of ships in the service. This was the groond on-which it was impossihle to accede t" the claims of the -clerks whom the Hun. Baronet had t»entioned, to be reised_ to the rank of pa" secs and placed on half-pay. The Resolution was then agreed to. ORDNANCE ESTIMATE'S. Mr. R. Warm briefly stated that charges which appeared in the Ordnance Estimate-3 of the Inc" sent year as compared with theise of the last, bil l his ohAervations were almost wholly inaudible the gallery. The retrenchment on acetonic of 511 " perannuation alloWences amounted to abet!‘ :eO,OOO/. There was a redaction of 15`_'4 fleets, artillerymen, and drivers, the istrinbcr s having been in the last year 9759, and being 8c present but 7935. The total expence of the Or a : fiance was now brought down to about 1,100,0 00 " from 3,400,0001. which it had 1111101111ted to der ,o4 the war. He moved for a grant of 386,252/• full discharge of the Ordnance for the Laud 6c" vice for 1819. Mr. HOME complained of the charge create`` by the establishments for manntacttoine pi ty ' powder. Private manufacturers would al Atays tae tound competent to provide an atlrtluate stiff I)r On any particular emergency, and he therefore jetted (*1 the establishments he had alluded u 7 bt lug kept up its time of peace. lie observc'd '• charge of ten thousand five hOndred portal for the Powder Mills at Waltham Abbey I. o '` Feversham. The sobject appeared to hint merit the most serious consideration of t l House. lie wished now to ask the lion. Ge l3 l tleman in what way the vacancies in the Steil the Artillery were to be filled up. lie had that some arragement had been made by Gover' r, tent and the Plaster-General of the Ordnan ce ; by which the vacancies in future were to be 1 1 ' ;, `:' up by Cadets from /Woolwich and hall-pav tl cers. Whoever had originated this plan weri` e e his best thanks : he Loped that it would hioogbt into general use, and that it would event: wally operate a mate, ial reduction of the half.rn list, lit these estimates lie observed a number,' novel items, to which he would call the (4 1 " 11 :1 !ion of the House. It hail been recommen d ' by the Finance Committee, that the newly-actr i : ed Colonies should be made to hear their es si ; expellees. This was suggested with referenc e Ceylon, the Cape of Good Hope, the Maurill and the lonian Islands, but these he saw crea ( 4, a charge of upwa7ds of 26,0001.: he would Irons what he knew of them, that they outfit be maintain themselves, and cause a saving I( .' country of half a million, instead of an addition t xpeoce. Mr. It. Wan') contended, that in various po l of view it was of importance to keep up the P `, sent establishments (or manufacturing gool' ° ' l ., der. lie especially insisted on this from the P c e , fection which bad been attained in the 141211 111 ` L e y Wring of gunpowder in them . , as (l i st which produced, he could venture to say, excelled sample that could be found all over the ‘x° r i fr To the question respecting the Staff of the Ar,;hl lery, h had to answer there was no Staff. , t o vacant; es that might occur, it was intend ° ,o fill up in the way which had been described► as this system met with the Hon. Member's .o`,o prob.:tiots, be begged to retorts his thanks fo r ,oo foamier io w hi , it it had been mentioned. question started as to the Colonies was one o' hit o it would ;sot he proper for him to enter I v o upon. Whatever the merits of the case orig lll l o at present he was obliged to bring the Estill° torward in the usual way. The Resolotion was then agreed to.—'th e lowing grants were next voted : For the service of the Board of Ordnance for 819..1 , - 3—' ,l For the service of the Bum dof Ordnance for 1818, 0 01 - 4 . nut provided for To defray the expellee of irdneing tote I e Military 0 0 (1 Corps connected with the Ordnance 10 1 Mr. liuME,. recurring to the objections b e ig e before urged against the gunpowdermanufeel'i ~e)/ complained that the expence of them w 45 11 0 great. The cue) of 7,5001. seemed to enormous charge for 10,000 hart els of gori t t 4 der. He also complained of the accounts ° is l e department having been sriffered to get 0 1° Lf e' rear . , some of those for 1814 nut having, Ye ( sent in for examination. e co' l ) Mr. ‘VAttn lamented as much as any no- 1 , the great arreitr of accounts, hut showed it ir ! been impossible to svotO it , front their beN widely dispersed an over the Nu e. lit instances, those offieets with whom the Oto i ginated, were laboorio:: under sever e di•pie 9s l, ; and several prosecutoses had beets etosonco e se , „, The toilowiAg grants were lieXt prop- -C‘P agreed to 6t : Tu defray the charge created by the allowances to •51 • supetaanuated Air( rs retired -- To pay allowances of retired otticcrs wit provided for in Isis - .. • ;5' For superannuated alhiaances oche,. rst:,l the ttr , ; - Wince for set% icri of a civil twat- ,•