The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-10 00:00:00

Roman Catholics. He trusted that the House of Com mons would never forget the right of the Sovereign to ex= anise his judgment upon every topic equally with either if the other branches of the Leg islature . The Hou. Mem-. ber proceeded to contrast the lnguage held by. the Roman Catholics in 1782, with that held by the present peti tioners. At the former . period they declared themselves satisfied with the concessions that had been made to them, yet, notwithstanding the further privileges granted to them in 179 k; what waa now their language? 'They prayed indeed, that they might be admitted.to a participation in all the benefits of the Constitutione--e(Hear, hear. )—Much of the intemperate lanirage of **see-petitioners might be a body which offered traced to the CatholicA.l o thst i°n * a gainst themselves, that he such an armoury .of weap on* was surprised the Catholicsiolerated its existence. -But not only were. the pretensions of the Catholics humble at the former period of which he spoke, (1782), but their advocates also, were ...extremely circumscribed in -their views. When, Mr., Gardiner (the late Lard Mountjoy) first introduced his measure for their relief; ha confined it to five riots, namely, right of property, right of religion, eight.of marriage, right of education, andfight. to carry anne , On this latter point, even Mr. -Grattan , himself had doubts, confining his desire to " granting every thing. to. the Catholics consistent with the Protestant ascendant.' These were Mr. Grattan's own words,- and .were to be, found in the second edition of a work published in 11831,', Now, he (Sir R. Inglis) would contend, that with a die contented people like the Catholics of the present day, it. would be most impolitic to grant to them-political power, the only effect of which v e luld he to enable those to pro ceed to outrage who were already fully, disposed to do so. (Coughing,)"---H this motion should be agreed to, and that: all they now demanded were conceded, what assurance had Parliament that they. would rest satisfied ? If the concessions which- satisfied them in 1793, were not suffi cient to satisfy .them in 1793, .what security had the Par liament and the country (should all that they demanded in 1828 be conceded), that the Catholics would not ten years hence--that was, in 1638, come forward with new and interminable demands. To their claims and importunities we might ascribe the words of the Poet : Mobilitate viget, viresque acquirit eundo; Parvo metu primo ; niox xese attolit in auras, Jngrediturque solo, et eapet inter nubile comfit. If ail they now asked were granted,- he was quite con vinced that the Catholics would never rest satisfied until their Church were declared the Established Church of Ire land. (Hear, and coughing.) The Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) had alluded in his speech to the state of mixed religions in foreign ct nantriee--contending from that which obtained in them—Prussia for example--that no danger could result from the admieei.on of the Catholics to political power in this country. But the Hon. Bart. had cited no, case at all analogous to our OWII situation, even admitting the facts as stated in the work he referred to. Most cer— tainly, the Catholics were not admitted to power (although he confessed they enjoyed toleration) in Sweden, Denmark, and other countries to which he could refer ; nod farther he would contend, that concessions might be made with safety in Prussia, which in England would be imminently dangerous. He should not further trespaae on the time of the House, than to declare, that he, for one, would never lend his assistance to break down those seamarks which had enabled us hitherto to avoid and triumph over the dan gers by which we were surrounded. Sir J. NEWPORT rose, and after mine preliminary ° l e en-ration:a only partially- heard in the Gallery, the pur port of which was, that he could not suffer the speech of the .1-fon. Baronet who had just sat down to remain a mo ment unanswered, proceeded to speak to the following effect. 1 will not enter upon a discussion of the terms of the 'Treaty of Limerick, which the Hon. Member has brought forward before the House—leaving it to rest upon the state ments of the Hon. Baronet himself, lamenting at the same time he has not followed the example of a Right Rev. Pre late, who preached at Limerick upon the subject, that no faith was to be kept with hereties.—(Hear.)—l will not dwell upon the Treaty of Limerick, but will come at once to a later treaty—that for the Legislative Onion of England and Ireland ; and, speaking of it, I shall refer to a state ment I made in this Home at a period when a very large number of those who constitute it at present were not members of it. In a debate which took place on this ants- , ject at the time to which I refer, I charged the Noble Lord who urged that treaty for the legislative union—l mean the We Lord Castlereagh—with having broken faith with the great body of the Irish people—the Irish Catholics. 'jheNoble Lord instantly rose with that indignation whi,zh 'great and honourable, minds feel when charged with any . seeing so infamous as breaking faith, and solemnly disclaimed the imputed crime, declaring that no pledges were given ghat Catholic Emancipation would be conceded, adding, I appeal for the truth of this disclaimer and of this decla ration, to my Right Hon. Friend" (the Right Hon, w. Elliott) who now, (continued Sir J. Newport) sits et the right hand of the Hon. Bart: (Sir R. Inglis.) Mr. Elliott immediately rose and said, "undoubtedly no pledges were given." Lord Castlereagh cried " Hear, hear" upon which Mr. Elliott said to him, " Hear me .out. Certainly no pledges were given—no positiVe promises were held out,. but if the Noble Lord says that no hopes were excited by suggestions' and ether intimations' of what might follow, and that the Catholics did not, in consequence, concur is that measure—the Legislative Union—which, without their conse nt, could not have been carried, the Noble Lord states that which widely differs from the fact."—(Loud cheering.)—" My Nuble Friend," continued Mr. Elliott, , 6 , cannot make such an !insertion, because he is a man o honour. H e k nows I was p; ivy to the whole transaction, and must concur with me in sap.;, that without the eon :,.ent of the Catholics the Union never could have been car ried;"—(Hear, bear, hear.) —Now (cant:lt-tiled Sir J. New i port), I say that terms were held out, and expectations created in the minds of the Catholics—and for this asser tion I have the authority of the Noble Lord, in his refrain ing from denying that which was stated by my Right +it. Friend (Me; Elliott), and in addition I had the authority of another - Right honourable Friend, who was cognizant of the facie (th.e late Mr. Pon sonby (as we understood), than whom no more ho nourable man ever lived in any country. / say, there were hopes held out to the Catholics, and When the Hon. Ba ronet says there were no pledges given to which the 'rape, fist Parliament were parties, I say, that without sach an understanding the Catholics would not have consented, and that, without their 'consent, the Union never could have heen effeetod.—(Clieers.)--And, further, in - my con.. s,ience, I firinly believe, that if that Union had not been carried, that Ireland had possessed an independent Parlia ment, and that the Catholics had remained unemancipated after the rupture of the peace of Ainiens—it is, I say, my, firm belief that Ireland Would not now he in the possession of this country.—(Load and continued - cheering.) DUNCOMBE (of York) could not rest satisfied with giving a silent vote upon this occasion. The . apparent apathy of the country on this subject had been relied on as an argument.; to sheer that the people Were friendly to the Catholic Claims; as had been stated by the Solicitor-Cie -4 , nei.s./, in his unanswerable speech last night, althoug h the spirit of opposition was not in active operation, it only slumbered, and would burst forth with the 'occasion with redoubled vigour. Ile begged leave here to allude to a pi tition wh i c h he had presented on this subject from the Corporation of Leeds, in which the petitioners asserted, that the Catholic religion had undergone no change; and without change (continued the lion. Member) no further concessions ought to be made. In the statements place; but if any had occurred in ,contained in that petition he fully concerted. He:thought no change had taLwn their sloctrine or their wors h . ip f , o i r t al b . e_ho ( v i e i d ea dte. \ Catholics themselves; to publish aad set it was r.'— u "i 3 own conviction eves, that the catho lic reli gion 'l e t as well neheaged attempt t o and unchangeabis—and that we Aug change one particle of, the take abeam from the Sun as t Catholic religion, Worship, or dn. cipline.—(Tlearelaear.)— /si r Bnrdett), he Of the speech of the Hon. Baronet k mint say, that it did not appear to him to coutaia much 11 had relied of novelty, either in argument or facts. f th e Ti tir of much on the interpretation of the articles -- e " , Limeriele--but that oubject hail already heen di:rusan. in the present Session, and all the arguments in feeour of the Catholics founded on it most satisfactorily answered, Jie (Mr. Duncombe) never could concur in the assertion that i t w as a violation of the Treats- of Limeriele to withhold. political p ower from the Catholics. Mr. Pitt's opinion 1 1 1 1 this question had been frequently referred to ; halt if his 3 t, the period of the Union were decidedly io favour of the Catholic, claims, why did he not state at thought they ought to what time, and in what manner, be conceded--(Hear)—moreover, Mr. Pitt never argued the question in the manner in which its advocates put it forward at the present day. , (The Hon. Member here pro eeeded to contend , that, accordieg to the spirit of the British Constitutio n, it was impossible to grant po li t i ca l p o wer to the Catholics —that even if both Hoaxes of Par liament c oirred in passing a Bill to grant to the Catholics the utmost extent pf their demands, the obligations of the King's Coronation oath must prevent its passing into a law. The Hon. Member gilded the well known reply o f his late Majesty King George the Third to Lord Grenville, i n which that revered Monarch deelVed, that he was ready to lay his head upon the block, if the inte.rests of his sob. sects required it; lint - that he never could bring himself, by conceding those Chime, to violate his Coronation e oa(Mr.th.) Xn his opposition to the motion be fore the House, h D.), desired to be understood as actuated solely by a sense of public duty. He hoped the House would reject that motion, and thus prove that they were the representa- fives of the opinions of the large majority of the people of this country. This measure was not a panacea for the evils of Ireland; therefore he declined giving to it his support. He trusted Honourable Members from the Sister Kingdom would give him credit for sincerity when he ex pressed his hope that some measure of real utility would be brought forward by the Government for the alleviation of Ireland's miseries. . Mr. V. STUART stated his readin es s to argue the question on the ground assumed by the Hon. Bart., namely, of expediency; but of expediency in relation to another great national compact than the Treaty of Limerick—he meant the Act of Union, in the passing of which, none wer e snore interested than the Catholics of Ireland. If the subject under discussion were a great international question effect ing the rights and interests of all classes of the Empire, then, indeed, he would bow with submission and confi. dente to the decision of a majority of the Representatives of the people in that House; hat when he considered that it was a question in which the, wishes 'of the.lrish people were expressed .by the Representatives of Ireland in that House, and when he saw that those wishes were . opposed by the English Representatives,.. he would never cease to raise his voice against. the manner. in which the,Union.was made to defeat the just hopes of the Cathplics of Ireland in that House. Since that great compact had been entered ' into, it. had.heen .held a sort of political profanation to doubt its utility. .1f the effect of it would be to give equal laws to the people of Ireland, then,. indeed, would it be productive of the greatest blessings; but if it were not made productive of those ,blessings, then, indeed, was it calculated to inflict the severest evils. If the principle of that measure were to be judged, by the, consequences of its operation, was there not reason for thinking. that that principle had beta long since abandoned. . 'ln the preamble of the Act of Union it was set forth, that the object of the measure was to strengthen the connection between England and Ireland, and to consolidate the power, strength,' and resources of the British Empire. Now, be would ask the English Representatives. in that House, was the re fusal of the Catholic Claims the best way to consolidate the strength of the empire?—(Cheering.)—Or was . the only object of the Union the transfer, of one hundred votes from the Irish House of cotnmons to the British ? Did Mr. Pitt intend, in the year .1801, that the purpose of his great measure was to bring the Representatives of the two countries into collision in that House? Would it strengthen the connection between the two countries, to bring their respective inhabitants into a ,conflict of political hoatility? Was this, an union of affections? The House should remember that the time was when the peo ple of Ireland possessed the power of enforcing their claims on the attention of England, end .in every such instance the national demands of the Irish were met by England with conceasions,,however reluctant. Zuch was the case in the beginning of the last century—such in 1758 such when the Irish Parliament declared their legislative indePendence of England. Was not the principle on.whieh the English Gavernmentacted in granting these successive concesssons a desire to, prevent the separation of • the two countries ? So long as Ireland had a Legislature of her own, concession by England followed in the wake of the national demands of- Ireland. Such was invariably the case before.the Vision. Since that event the conduct of England had been of a different nature; and if it should appear that this difference of treatment was the consequence of the Union, was not such a circumstance calculated to disgust the people of Ireland with the Union, as the source of their misfortunes, and to make them wish for a termi nation of it? Of the many questions which, in a long course of time, harrassed and distracted the attention of the people of the two countries, that of Catholic emanci pation was the question which of all others, excited and concentrated the national feeling of Irishmen. Could that feeling subside among them, when they recollected that if they still had a national Legislature, the question would have been ere now set at rest; and when they saw that, after 28 years of petitioning, it was still discussed as a question of expediency? , Yet lie could tell the ops posers of ,the measure that they must yield in the end, and without obtaining those securities they sought, and without exciting that feeling of gratitude and affection, which would follow the concession of it at preeent. The time had gone by when the concession of. thew claims would he taken as a favour. They ~were now looked on by the Catholics as their right ; . and in his opinion they had an abstract right . to theta, on the ground of that pledge which was implied, if not expressed, in the solemn centred of the lipion, and which was the hosis of that contract. Emancipation, he would repeat, was the basis on which the. completion id .the Union was contemplated by Mr. Pitt e - e the basis of that noble structure which that illastrieue Statesman founded, het had not the happiness to see finished—a structure that woe now tottering to its fall, shaken by the hands of those persona who v.-ould persuade the House that they were the exclusive admirers of that Statmaii's policy. The popular feeling of the Irish peaple on this question was like the working of the elements, seething, And boiling, and gurgling, to find a level, but whose agitations would sub side into tranquillity when it should have found that level. While the people of England claimed a superiority over.the Irish, that claim of geePdancy would create jealousies and heart,burnings ; they would see that the end of English PP romises and English honour , ani Eng lish j ustice, held forth at the Union, was. to•obtain possession of power for their own. advantage and the injury of the Irish. Was this the spirit in which the Union was passed—were these the conditions on syhieb Lisa aid of the Irish Catholics was ask ed and given ? " If you (said )Ir. Pitt) co-operate with me in effecting the Union, I'll undertake to effect your eman cipation." Such was the spirit in which the Irish Catho ' lies h elpe d to bring about the Union—for could it be be lieved, that with their eyes open, they would part with the advantage of a. oatinnal Legislature, without bargaining for some other advantage equivalent to it. Then what advan tage could they expect imam the Union, but admission to equal rights .and privileges with their Peotestant fellow-sub jects. But the English Government act haring per formed their part of the contract, I shall prove that the jriah are in consequence in a worse condition than be fore that ,contract was made. What were the hopes held ou t to induce the Irish to consent to the Union ? Why, that they would goy rich on English capital and English resources. Was it so ? Ale—lreland was poorer in the affair of capital and manufactures now than before the Jpion. Why was this? Because the representations . held pea to her were not realized. English capital would hare amric,iial Ireland, but their security and trangnile lity must have preceded its entrance into Ireland. But security cold not saint where there was national discon tent, and discontent thereannet be, while the claims of the Catholics continued to be with:U.4d from them. Before the Union, Ireland had a resident nobility, and that wealth and security, and moral improvement, that resalteil from a resident aristocracy. Now, :he had none of these—anal if the Parliament' held out Ireland to Irishmen, and asked them whether they would have he r with those her former advantages, or in her prevent condition, stripped of them, what would they say ? Give us our country as she was before the Union; - or as you promised she should be in can seeuence of the Union.: - But, no, the opponents of the C.asholie Claims would grant neither one nor the other,-- They fancied they could goad, and harms's, and persecute Ireland into loving glean, after they had disappointed her hopes and blighted her prosipeett.r. They c9urted her into the Union, like the wooer of Ake termagant lady in the Prial— " Thy beauty that loth make me like OW WO , Thou must be married to no man but ins, For I am he am born to tame thee." And then turning round ,on her with a gi Sweet love, shan't we marry." These lion. 'Gentlemen dec..lare they will not be talked down by Catholic demagogues, and boast that they never will be induced to do that which they know in heir hearts OW must do in the end. The advocates of the Catholic may he c,;:lpable in their too vehement proclamation of their rights and wrong; but the House should act on the re gw.kigpislate4,ontire co n m t mendation of Mr. Burke, and decide this great cause, .o o o w n the ground of the conduct of its advocates, but on g.. , r' s ...n_ merits or demerits ; au this ground the House tohni;,iptinestinonfe,wthseelfirseilteemtinwpoon of.listwsh,icohr w hi rl: furious part , ans cr riamorous demagogues, or designing rebels, but whose sneer= : -,. N id b e I we come to even'honest ma p ;hat had the interest 'tit the 1 4 ' • r 1 -' • then to ~ditinctions. Let Englishmen'lll r at heart--a tura P l ace d nn the ps,Vir footin.., an equality "4. Ir.tisbmen be of rights ar4 r r ivi wottld a/I Ce bound bod t J e ri, and they . ' to the Constitution'hy an equality equality of affections and u y, eints . The di v i s i ons between the .two gonntries would then he 0 7:;ly geographical, and he bound together hy the people w OOl a trio ;-el union ; and they may throw down the thus united, 1 ;amitlet of defiance to all Europe, 1 wi_h that sentence as their watch-word that formed the motto of the Order of St. Patrick. 4 u i s scparabit? (Cheering.) Mr. L. FOSTER denied that there existed a rponopa. of liberality on one side of the question. He wa , .4 Orangeman—lie was tivpprted by no party, nor had he ever attended a bhetituTonnccted With the subject, but he apprehended a speeific r danger from the concession of these claims. It was now twenty years ago since he suggeftted that the prospect of the concession of titan would bring forw a rd the Catholic Clergy of irelz=l 29 claimants for political power; he bad said that t he y would be .voite.d with the laymen, and that they would bring in theirs piri,d tual authority to effect an influence over political pee ings—tn -separate - the connection between tenants and landlord ! . Ilia suggestion 3vas then considered improba ble.:—impassible--yet hiidltAUlilli'been accomplisher) ; lint' some Hon. Members said that the exercise of that spiritual influence was only temporary—be thought, otherwise. As to the assertion that if the question were conceded it would put an end to the excitement and expectations of the Catholics of Ireland—if he thought so he would be one of the first to concede emancipation; but he was con vinced the concession would have no such effect, but quite the contrary—this was the reason that he persevered in his opposition to concession. - . Again, it was asserted that the concession of these claims would. give Catholic property its legitimate influence, and se tend to dissolve the Catholic Association. Now he was convinced that thco,igh the Catho lic Association may dissolve for a time, it would soon revive in another shape and under another name. Whether a society for the imprevement of Ireland, or for the dissolu tion of the union, or for the diffusion of e ducation, it would continue a lay executive for the instrumentality of spiri tual influence. For both these Catholic interests, namely, the lay, and the ecclesiastical, understood each other well ; and all that the Catholic Clergy wanted' for the promotion of these views was an ostensible, and cen tral body. of laymen, such as the Catholic Association. That body would have the complete controul of the. Mem bell that would be returned. by the Catholic influence in Ireland. He owned that there was great difference of opi nionastq what would be the effect of introducing a body of Catholics into that House, and it was asked , that, even supposing there were 100 of them, was it do be supposed that the , rest of the . House would let them vote away the Established Church ? No ; they would not do so if it was put in direct terms. The citadel would be taken by sae. prise, not by storm.—(Cheers.) —The Right Hon. Gentle man (the Member for Newcastle) has proposed a plan, ap plicable to this objection, which he (Mr. Foster) was sur prised had not yet been alluded to. The lion. Member's plan was to deprive the political phalanx of all power of voting on questions in any manner connected with the Esta blished Church. But sure he was that his lion. Friend would shrink from following his plan into its painful de tails. If it could be safely put in praCtice, he (Mr. F.) would admit that it did offer something having the appear ance of a security, but it would be impossible to carry the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan into effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman would allow the Catholic Members the liberty of sPeaking on questions of tithes, and other matters rela tive to the Church—of presenting petitions on them, and offering their opinion, but would then turn them out of the House.—(llear.)---Would not every argument now used with respect to the degrading situation in which they were now placed, apply then with even greater force, from being brought immediately before their eyes?—(Cheers.) —But if they were admitted, they would not adopt the clumsy plan of directly attacking the Established 'Church, but would more artfully weaken it by conferring power and emoluments 011 their own.—(Hear.) —That was the natural course they would take. Another strong objec tion to the Catholics ever being admitted to that House was the fact, against which they could not shut their eyes, of the influence a large united party inthat House could exer cise more effectually out of it than it. A conference in a Ministerial closet would have more effect than a dozen speeches in that House. In critical times, in nicely balanced parties, could it be supposed such conferences would not take place? (near, hear.) The words give, sell, and exchange, would not be there used ; soft names would be given to • the bargains that would be made, but they would have a powerful effect. For example, representations, if reasonable it would be for the Catholics to be exempt from the payment of church rates, would be made, accompanied with an intimation that that body of Members had not yet made up their minds upon the corn or any other question that might be about to undergo discussion. In the same manner a Catholic Board of Education, and other things not now dreamed of, would be proposed and carried. He would even suggest to Hon. Members on the other side of the House, who were now so much occupied with a matter they considered of great importance, that a party of the kind he had named, might convey it to the Mi nister, that they had the greatest possible objection to the payment of tithes, but none in life to the ap pointment of a Lieutenant General of the Ordnance. (Hear, bear, and laughter.) The hest aspect in which they could look at the prospect such a measure as that called Catholic Emancipation held out, was, that there would be two Established Churches in. Ireland. But he would say, that when matters had reached this point, which Hon. Members seemed so anxiously to wish, the situation of Ireland, so far from being changed for the better, would, in his opinion, be in an infinitely more dis turbed state than it was at present.—(Hear, hear.) He could not subscribe to the proposition attempted to be es tablished by some Hon. Gentlemen, that the state Might to be totally indifferent to the religion of its subjects; and that the law of England ought for the future to have no opinion upon that point. Whatever might be proper for the future, he was sure there was no lawyer who would assert, that that bad as yet been the Constitution of Eng land. Ever since England bad been a State, the Consti tution had a decided opinion upon the religion of the land, and he trusted that it would continue to do so, as long as England aspired to be considered a Christian nation.— (Hear.) The attempt now made was a sacrifice of prin ciple at the shrine ofexpediency.—(Cheers. ) He did not ob ject to expediency, a just and proper expediency, having its due weight, but he felt that a yielding of principle to . . expediency was the vice of the times-princ iple was no thing. sod to Nos facimus, Fortuna, Deam, ezeloque locamus. (Cheers.) —It had been urged, that the Church of Scot , . land was a separate establishment. But from all that he had been able to learn on the subject, there was no difference between it and the Church of England, except on matters of Church Government. The case was far different with the Church of Rome, and he could not forbear raising his voice against the assertion that there was no difference be. tween it and the Church of England. (Hear.) He meant to say, that the difference between them was irre concileable. One or other of them, so great was the dif ference, had most awfully perverted those Scriptures on which Christiana founded their hopes. It was contrary to all principles of law, to religious truth, for a Legislature to treat religion as a matter so perfectly indifferent as to establish two Churches differing in their doctrine', in the same country, as the Church of Rome and the Church of England.-- (Hear !)—He did not mean to say that this measure would cause the abrogation of the English Church in Ireland; hut undoubtedly all the substantialities of wealth, conse quence, and influence, would attach to the other church, and this again would lead it to political power, and that political power it would never cease to use as long:as it had any one thing to gain, or its rival any thing t o lose. (Cheers.) The Solicitor-General for Ireland had last night intimated to him that the expression of these sentiments might cost him his seat in that House ; that, by ematinging the course into which he bad entered, the county he hpd the honour to represent would not, at the next election, return him for its member. He might re gret being deprived of that honor ; but he should despise himeelf, entertaining the strong opinion he did on the sub ject, if he were to allow his worldly interests to interfere with his duty.--(Chars. )--At the same time, be might perhaps be allowed to say, that if be could reconcile his, commence to change thp vote he had always g i ven on t h is question, no Nember would be more certain of his seat than himself.—(Cheers,) , —Put he would not now disavow feel, jogs be had conscientiously entertained and avowed for twenty years. By the blessing of God , let what might betide him, lie should not change his opinions on so mean Tegsoe.e.e(Pheers.)--Other Gentlemen, with deafer views—whether iniiniTced by principle, interest, exte dieney, or election views---might take what course they pkeed.—(Heer, bear.)—lf they thought the pep,rse they took was aoulated to tranquillize Ireland let them pursue it, but let them not ins is t u p on being followed by tio,e who feared their road would lead to ruin. If the suemed ed in their undertaking; he should not claim any pat of its glory, and at least, if it failed, he should be exempt from any portion of its disgreee, if not of its misfortmes - But let the result be what it might ? .he Rho* a l wa ys Lave the satisfaction of reflecting that he had anted eceording to his sense of duty.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. DOGHERTY said, that he was sorry the HO. and Parned Gentleman had so nisundtritood him, as tr' in)Vini? AAt pny thing he said was intended !.^ deter h!, 113 ottlfti)lowing hi,seenstistent course of opposition. lie did not intend last iiight to 4„cs.;Tilae. any particular indi vidual, hut a class of highly resii i entable mad intelligent Zil,lnnbers of that House, Representatives of 'lreland, wh 6 , would be Deprived of their sea ts, not because the y ougM to lose them, but treatise the Catholics, who were the great body of the Electors in that country, would make the fact of supporting' their eleirns,'Cle criterion, and se criterion, in his (Mr. Doherty s) mind improperly, merit in a Representativ e. With res p ect to 'the Hon. aria Learned Gentleman, himself, he could with truth 'say; that there was not in that House an individual for whom be eri tertained a more sincere respect. Mr. W, lIORTON. --When I state that this is the flrt.P time since A have had a seat in this House, that I have has an opportunity of expressing my sentiments on this subject , I trust that the House will lend, kr a ebort time, a small partion of its attention. Sir, my Honourable Priem} who would insinuate the all has just now addressed the Howe, appears to me to haVe mostt xe characteristics alarmingiric o i taken .up a train of reasoning, which, if followed up, hear.)—He admitspeesen, unhappy Government of Ireland; he admits that the principles. —("r1 Priesthood exercised a practical interference in the list election; be admit, the corectness of the statements•made, by the Hon. Member for Kerry, and tells you that if you concede any thing to the Catholics, all the present bad symptoms manifested throughout Ireland will be aggravated. The present state of things cannot continue ; and if what the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen tell us be truly his opinion, he must wish us to restore the former state of things, which, although he does not allude to it, is the only logical conclusion at which his argument can arrive.— (Hear, hear, hear.)—The Honourable Member towards the close of his speech adverted to some opinions of mine, which have not been presented to the House, and, although, I think it at all times inconvenient to allude to'any thing said out of this House, he is welcome to do so. But with respect to the opinions he has thus alluded to, be must give me leave to say. that they were not addressed to him. I never ,supposed the. Hon. Member would be satisfied with any security whatever. Tons of security would not, I am convinced, satisfy him.—(Hear, and laughter.) My opi nion was not offered to those who have steeled their minds against all change whatever. It was offered to that large portion of the community out of doors, who think the pry sent state of things to be lamented, and wish to yield every thing to the Catholics that may not be inconsistent with the security of Protestantism in its best sense. The security I proposed was offered to the consideration of those who entertain feelings such as I have described, and not to those who have the feelings of my Hon. Friend, who, from his speech to-night, has convinced me no secu rities would satisfy him.. He dreads the shocking result :that must follow the introduction of a certain number of Catholic Menitiera into this House, and he detailed to us . • . - - the whole process by which they were to sap the founda tions olithe Church. The utmost he would grant was a short, space before the dreadful catastrophe was to take place. I feel none of the Hon. Gentleman's apprehensions, and I am confident there is no responsive voice to them in the breasts of the people of England. My Hon. Friend objects to this concession being made on the principle of expediency; if it was made on mere expediency I should object to it as much as himself; but I am satisfied that the claim is founded in equity and justice, and it is on that ground I yield to it. Expediency is here hacked up by right. The Hon. Member has said --r- sed to Nos facimus, Fortuna, Deam aeloque But he has forgotten the line which precedes it— Nullum numen babes, si sit prudentia.—(Cheering.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Solicitor-General for Ireland, divided, the people, as regarded this subject, into three classes. First, there were those who wished . things to remain as they. were; second, those who were for conceding the Catholics their rights ;- and third, those who were for reviewing a state of things long since passed. I do not see the necessity for this division, and think it would be the more convenient, as well as the more cor- rect way, of looking upon the people as consisting of two classes; those who are prepared to grant the concessions, either with or without securities, or ,those who will not grant them upon any consideration whatever. My own opinion is, and I have never disguised it, that the only true security will be found in the cessation of religious dis tinctions.—(Cheers.) On the other hand, I cannot guise from myself that a great portion of the people of this country are not prepared to take the same view of the sub ject as myself, but who look , with anxiety for the establish ment of some security, which will assure them that, in re moving the disabilities which will affect their fellow-coun trymen, they will not endanger the Protestant Established Church. With respect to the other class, who resist all concessions upon principle, putting aside the question of security, it is vain to urge any thing to them having that object in view. This House, seeming to me, to consist principally of these two great parties, I think some course ought to be taken by which its feeling upon the question of security might be ascertained. I must confess that lam not quite satisfied with the disrespect, if I may so call it, ' with which the Hon. Baronet, who-last- night opened this debate, treated this subject. The deairableness of dis covering some security that would satisfy both Catho lics and Protestants has been acknowledged by some of the most able men who have sat in this House, Mr. Ponsonby, whose name must be dear to all interested in the success of this question, has given it the weight of his authority. _(The Hon. Member here read an extract from one of Mr. Ponsonby's speeches, expressive of that gentleman's opinion on the desirableness of finding some security which Catholics could conscientiously give, and Protestants confidently accept.)—l say, then, supported by this authority, :that the question of the securities that may he given by theCatholies, and accepted by us, is well worthy of the consideration of the House ; and I trust that those Hon. Members who now refrain from granting what the Catholics wish; from a deubt of the possibility of esta blishing such security, will agree to the motion that has been made, to go into a Committee, where the, point may be more properly discussed than now. I must take leave to differ with the Hon. Gentleman who just now• spoke, who said that the Catholics would not receive this conces sion with gratitude. Sir, lam satisfied that , the time for that is not yet passed ; but I am also satisfied, that if we delay the payment of this long standing debt much longer, circumstances will arise, which will put the consideration of gratitude out ,of the question. lam unwilling to tres pass longer en the time of the House, on a subject which has been so often argued with eloquence and wit. It would be presumptuous , in me to arrest your time by the repeti tion of arguments which have, been handled so much more ably than I can pretend to do. It is with delight that I assent to the motion of the Han. Baronet to go into a Com mittee, where I trust . the means will be found of connect ing security with emancipation, and that thus we may be enabled to settle a question which in any other way it will be -impossible to settle to the satisfaction of all—l say of all—because if, on the one hand, I grant that six millions of Catholics ought to have certain rights, so, on the other, I consider that the jealousy of ten millions of Protestants (night, in granting those rights, also to be taken into the account. If the proposition of the Protestants be reason able, I think it as much entitled to consideration as that advanced by the Catholics.—(Cheers.) Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, and spoke to the following effect :—Once more, Sir, do I follow in the train of all that is wise, and good, and great; of all who have illuminated and honoured this country since the begin ning of the present century—in the train of a body of per sons who have been well described by an Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House, whose zeal against the Ca tholic Cause has not been weak, as a combination of in tellectual superiority, such as was perhaps never before united to attain any single object. I confess lam not so confident in my awn judgment as not to feel great relief and consolation in the coincidence of my opinion with that of the eminent individuals to whom I have alluded. I feel confident in their judgment; for I do not think so ill of the perception of such Englishmen as to imagine that for 28 years they could have argued and considered that question, and have been deceived. I cannot suppose it of the flower and choice of the English community in one of its most brilliant periods.—Could they have been deceived upon a question like this—a simple question of policy—to be de cided by the events passing before their eyes ? Ido not mean to speak disparagingly of any one ; but I say that all who have held the first rank as statesmen, however much they have differed on other questions, have been una nimous on this. This, Sir, is not an appeal to authority against reason ; for I think the concurrence of a number of such judgments, itself a presumption of reason, and that of the greatest force. I conceive it would require little less than a miracle to suppose such a body of men continuing in a delusion so long upon a subject that must have been so often in their thoughts. Unless the phenomenon can be clearly traced to any other source than the power of truth, we are bound to ascribe it to that power. 'I never heard an attempt account for such a concurrence of opi nions,cti ar planetion of it given that could be even lo y ad e e z to called plausible. lam entitled, therefore, indeed bound in reason to asceibe it to the power of truth. Sir, I last night wished to have spoken after the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General, but I do not regret that I gave way to two Hon. Gentlemen, one of whom uttered the most effective, and the other the most convincing speech I have for some time heard on this illation. I re gret not either that I gave way to the HOD. Gentleman who showed so beautiful a union of private affection and public principle. He showed himself a true Protestant, to trusting the maintenance of the Protestant Church to the same power that raised it. Such, in my, opinion, is the spirit of a true Protestant.—(Cheers.) —Equally 'lo'6 do get having given way to the Hon. Member for Kerry, who gave th e H ouse s o deiightfel a history, I will not say of the pl e d ge s an d C om pacts,' but of the e-epeete tions excited, the suggestions offered, and the hopes n held out, on the subj ec t' o f E man Cip a tion, in order bring about the pnion. The people of Ireland still Continue to solicit as a: boon that Whiph•the 'Minister of England gave them hope would h ave foll o i ve d as a eonsericeriee of the Union. I repeat, Si r , t h at th e impreselon made by a speech, such as that d e li vere d b y m y Right Ifon. Friend, must haye been so great, that it ne ver can be a siNect of regret to me, that 1 gave way to him last night'. I would haye been glad, however, to have spokep after my Hen. and Learned' Friend, the Solicitor -General , to whom I always listen with that degree of pleasure and attention 'that the esteetet I feel for him would naturally inspire, and with all that rospect which is justly due to the calmness, clearness, and conciseness, with which he expresses himself upon every subject, and to the judicial candour which he inva riably brings to the examination, even of political mea , lures. Bat, Sir, I am compelled -by some things which have been said by my Hon. and Learned Friend, to go back to principles, which, I had hoped, might have been allowed to be taken for granted. lam not one of those, Sir, who are disposed to exalt temporary expediency over principles, that are founded in truth, in justice, and expe rience. And when my Hon. and Learned Friend demands what connection has a seat in Parliament with the free profession of religion, I feel bound to ask in return, what is religious liberty, and I know the answer that his own truth and candour would suggest to my Hon. and Learned Friend. lam aware that it would be impossible to give a philological definition of religious liberty; bbt it is per fectly easy to give a practical description of it, that may answer as a standard to which we might refer, with a view of .ascertaining how, Much of this inestimable bless ing may be enjoyed by any particular class or na tion. And I, Sir, would say, that religious liberty consists in that state of the common law which affixes no penalty or disability—that _decrees no exclusion—or that attaches no inferiority of any soft to a man for avowing his opi nions in matters of religion. Or, to say the same thing more shortly religious liberty consists in that state of the law, by which no man is legally the worse for his opinions on religion—by which, whatever they may be, he may ex press them epenly, without drawing upon himself any mark of public displeasure. For I say that all persons who are subject to exclusion, not for civil disabilities, but on the grounds of religion, are marked out by the public dis pleasure, because of the religion they profess. And lam borne out in this assertion by the Hon. Member for Louth, who declares that there is in this country a state of dis trust towards those who profess a certain religion. Now, Sir, I say that every disability or disadvantage imposed upon a man on account of his religion, that is not abso lutely and imperatively necessary for the public weal, and for the preservation of the Constitution, is persecution— rank persecution—and differs from an auto da je in humanity, but not in principle. A man, Sir, who holds the doctrine of exclusion on account of religious faith _ _ may be restrained by humanity, by policy, by ;flame ; but if he be consistent with himself, all he has to consider is the weight of penalty and degree of punishment that should be employed against those who dissent from the Church by law established. But this, Sir, is not my . . _ doctrine, nor is it the doctrine of one who has been frequently mentioned in this House, anti whose name has been much abused—l allude to my Lord Somers, and I shall take the liberty of repeating his own words. Lord Somers did not apply them to the Roman Catholics, but to the Difienters, and I quote them with pleasure and pride on this aulipicious day, when his Majesty has been graciously pleased to consent to the most wise and paternal measure— ! mean to the restitution of their long-lint birthright to' the Dissentets—a birthright which was never forfeited through• any fault of their own.—(Great cheering.)—l quote, Sir, the doctrine of Lord Somert not as applied only to the Dissenters or to the Roman Catholics, but to all mankind. He says the punishment of incapability is, next to loss of life, the heaviest that can be inflicted ; for, continues he, an Englishman cannot be reduced to any more unhappy condition than that of being declared in capable of serving his Prince and his country, and nothing but a crime of the meat detestable nature ought to put him under the operation of so great and terrible a penalty. This, Sir, is the opinion of Lord Somers, who was the leader in that conference between the Houses of Parliament, upon the question respecting the Conformity Bill, and who was also supposed to be the author of the reasons assigned in the protest that was inscribed upon the Journals of the House of Lords. My Hon. and Learned Friend (the Soli citor-General) has spoken of the reign of William and Mary, and of Charles If. as those in which the wisdom of our ancestors was at the greatest; and he has argued that• because Acts of exclusion were then passed, and because the Catholic religien remains unchanged, that we should not venture to repeal or alter any of those statutes : bat this, Sir, is a mere' paralogy. lam myself as strongly disposed as anybody can be to resist crude innovation, and I feel a degree of mere than common reverence for the in stitutions of our ancestors, through affection for their memory; but never was the phrase of the wisdom of our ancestors applied with greater infelicity than to the degree of judgment they exercised in the passing of their Test and Corporation Acts, and their Penal Statutes. We may talk of the. folly of our ancestors; that could only be excused by their inexperience—we may talk of their delu sion, which could be only remedied by the progress of reason ; but, for God's sake ! let us not, on this occasion, and on this day, attempt to vaunt their wisdom. It isnot more, Sir, than 250 years since the time of Elizabeth, that illustrious and magnanimous Princess, when every State punished dissent from the Church established, as a crime. It is not 200 years since, in the time of James, two Arians were put to death. And, Sir, Iliaeos intra peccatur mums et extra. We all know that in the days of Edward the Sixth, the cradle of the Protestant was bathed in blood. We know, Sir, that. Arians and Anabaptists were brought to the scaffold and the stake under the auspices of Cranmer—a man in many respects moat estimable and venerable, and whose faults were less his own than those of the age in which he lived. From that time I shall now come, Sir, to the present, in which, though there are many intolerant (for that is a vice of human nature), there are yet none hardy enough to declare that they would directly inflict punishment upon those who might differ from them in their religious tenets. At this moment, Sir, .I am proud and happy to observe all the Statesof civilizedEnropepro fess toleration, and the greater number of them practise it.—(Hear.)—We have come to a time in which tolera tion has become religious liberty,• in that sense in.which I have described it.—That no man should suffer in his civil liberty in consequence of his religion, is the common law of Europe, from the Pyrennees to:the:Alps, and from Arch angel to Kamchatka. The despotic Governments of Russia and Austria come under this, and in all the various States which form the Germanic Body, we see a Catholic. In Saxony, which was the cradle of the Protestant reli gion, we see a Catholic Kiug governing with an equal band his subjects, of whatever religious denomination. In Bavaria we have also a Catholic King governing his Pro testant subjects in the same spirit, while. in Prussia there is a Protestant King ruling in the same way a great body of Catholic subjects. In the last Century, however, Eng. land and Holland were the only countries in the world in which there was toleration; and toleration was regarded by them as a. badge of . civilization, and they were in the habit of looking down upon other great and powerful States as still in a state of comparative barbarism, because they still continued to retain exclusive laws. Holland, ruled as it is, by_ a descendant from the Illustrious House of Nassau; is yet at this moment the most tolerant and best governed State of Europe. And, Sir, I rejoice at this, on English. Roman account of the ancient amity and alliance that has subsist ed between Holland and this country— Pen A ate la s ig " h)—b u t I for the House of Hanover, that England should have fallen I rejoice for the sake of the House of th N at a l ssa k u n , ew an a d I n r o e m gie n t of civilization. I cannot say, Sir, if Sweden does, as has into the rear, after having been once foremoswthoinretahreesemnarteeha been stated, exclude Roman Catholics, who, by the way, are not to be found iu her territorie 3— ( can say with respect to Denmark, D Ca en th m ol ar ic k g a e t nt t l h e is ma c n o , u o rt, f Irish extraction, kn ex ew trac a t n ian E , n there are no Protestants to States; in which, though Ca tholic, who represented her at the Court of the Nether lands. The presumption to be drawn from this, Sir, is, that laws of exclusion art' not in force there : and if, ac cordingly, we search Europe, we shall find that intolerance prevails suffer from the operation of such laws. Where, then, Sir, does intolerance exist ? In England and in Spain—in the e e r v e ai a ls re on v ly er i y n ma the ny P i e n n fi in d r is la , r country of Locke, and in the country of Loyola—under the Government of the House of Brunswick, and under the Government (if indeed I may dignify it with the title) of Ferdinand Vll.—(Cheering.) Thus, Sir, by being so in fatuated as to adhere to this misapplication of the wisdom of our ancestors, by struggling blindly to preserve some fragments, have we been brought to dishonour the power of England, 'to endanger the integrity of the empire, to encounter the risk of breaking the link that binds to us the most precious members of that empire—ef shutting a door that, until it be opened, there can be no hope of improvement for Ireland --of treating the people of Ire land in the same way in which they have been so long treated, and which they cannot continue to en dure for ever. Seven hundred and fifty years have passed since the Anglo-Normans established themselves in Ireland ; and during these seven hundred and fifty years the Irish chiefs and people have been constantly stretclii They have been continually begging as a boon that which En gland has been so infatuated as to refuse, b ut which if ,e k n ew . her own interest, she would implore theta to accept. And what has been the consequence? Is it not that Ire hind, which ought to have been a pri de, a blessing, and a s t re ngth to-England , has been a shame , a weakness, and a curse? Is it not that by a Jost retribution, s nglap feels the miseries she has inflicted, in divided coaric"—in a tot teringdistrust of public men—in Government—in _ the weakness of each party—and in the difficulty of form ing a lasting coalition ? By and by she will feel it in a ;note vital part of the Constitution —she w in will feel it i n the beggary of the humble an d industrious portion of the com munity-,-she will feel it the influx of starving wretches whom mismanagement and misrule fling daily and hourly upon her shores—she, will feel it in the wretched compe tition, that, if the existing order of things be preserved, must one day, and that no very distant day, take place he- 3. tween the tngliali la't3sUror And die .111;I: ragratt, m who shall work at the point nearest, to starvation. (Heat' hear.) I contend, Sir, that it is to this state of thing' we must look forward, and the only question is, whether we will or will not stand by laws that condemn us in Ire' land to a tottering Government, and to a people reduced to the lowest state consistent with the preservation of life? Sir, I cannot say, but I feel better than I can express, boo, great a debt is due to Ireland—what atonement sle is titled to for the long season of misrule that she hoe been, condemned to—an Oppression which, considering the OA' ra.lter of the two "nations—the one the most civilized spa the most free—the other the bravest, the most eloquent , and the most celebrated for its genius--is without a parallel in the history of nations. In cases where civilized natioo. have been overrun by barbarians it is' possible iluit historl may have as black a tale to tell, but I repeat that the CO is unparalleled in a civilized Government. Sir,the House rail be sure that I will not dwell upon this subject one Mot - ali t ; longer than I feel it useful. I have rejoiced over the A", peal of the Test Acts, but if I considered it in the light° a triumph over. any party—and, above all, over the Estr" blished Church—l would have abstained from alluding the subject as a matter of congratulation. I acknowledg e that all civil contests are— " Bella—nulles habitura triumphos." And, that to triumph for a victory over one's countryineo is at once vulgar and unnatural: But, Sir, I deny the this has been a triumph over the Established Church. It a triumph we owe to the age, it isu triumph that le° owe to the Right Rev. Prelates, who yield to none in thei# zeal for religion, or in their attachment to that Chnich sl which they are the natural and proper guardians. Sir, a cannot sufficiently express the feelings! entertained when observed the calmness and firmness with whiCh they e o ' 'lured the taunts and charges that were so undeservedly levelled against them—when 1 observed the judgment wide which they considered the true interests of the Church, and the dignity with which they asserted their right of being esteemed better judges of these interests than a pair of headstrong zealots. We owe to them also •the distino; tion between a Church and an Established Church—so' between a church and religion. For myself, Sir, Ire test against all discussion of religion in this Hou.se. Religion, Sir, consists in the love and reverence the is due to all perfect wisdom and unmingled goodness' The seat of religion is in the heart, where no power can reach--where no eye can scrutinize. It is a subject on which it is impossible to legislate, and that is too sacred and vane" able to be exposed to the levity incidental to discussion i 0 popular assembly. A church, to use the explanation of s Right Rev. Prelate, is a society of men agreeing in opiniort and met together in search of mutual instruction. Such was the primitive Christian. Church before any establish' ment was formed—such-was it in the reign of Dornitias• as in that of Theodositte; it shone with a light as pure so d as brilliant when Cyprian was committed to the flames a t Carthage, as when St. Chrysostom was on the archiepis' copal throne at Constantinople. And, Sir, such church° do yet exist—such is the Church of Scotland—and such is the North American Church ; and speaking of this Church it may not be inapplicable to remark, that tli Bishop of New Yolk visited this country.. He was Well received by all classes, and especially by the Clergy. e returned to his own country, and shortly after took rathe r a singular occasion of alluding to his visit. He preached e sermon in his Cathedral Church, and having paid the tri: bute that was due to the toleration observed in Englal and having expressed his gratitude for the hospitality.ew attention he had received, he took occasion to say, *be t judging from all that he had seen, he had rather bin Church was persecuted than established. Ido not i ner t, tion this, Sir, either from approving of the opinion, or . 0 ' the good taste, with which it was introduced ; but simply' in illustration of the distinction between a Church aw an Established Church. An Established Church is, l ° fact,' a civil institutio n ; d ou btl ess , f or ' th e di ssem inatipa of morality and religion among the people. But though in its nature a civil establishment, it is certainly to° . venerable, in our country, and ought to be supported. '1 all parties are ready to admit, so that the only question l e ', as to the best means of supporting it. And, Sk,'l tlii that we may learn much from the late discussion upon th e i repeal of the Test Act. I remember that an acute s° distinguished Prelate (Dr. Marsh) delivered a charge t° the Clergy of his diocese upon the subject of the Ron° Catholic Claims. He was, of course, opposed to then . But, Sir, what was the first evil he dwelt upon as likely.g e e result from the conceding of these claims ? Why, Sirs , b 0 says it would , be a measure pregnant with evil—it, n3iP even eventually bring about the repeal of the Test and CA P poration Acts.—(Great laughter.)—lt follows then, that is his opinion, the repeal of these Acts is a greater 0 7 than the concession of the Catholic Claims; for, ot her wise, it is clear, he would not have supposed one to be to aggravation of the other. Besides, it has always been sr gued thus, in this House, for Hon. Gentlemen, in content!' ing against these claims, have over and over again told its that the repeal of these Acts would be a consequence upon these claims being granted, and they then always dilate d upon the danger that would accrue to the C o ns titution from the destruction of what Mr. Justice Blacksto9e . 11 24 been, curiously enough, pleased to call a bulwark °P I° Jews, Turks, and Infidels ; but .now, Sir, happ ily this bulwark is levelled to the ground, Without any friend t‘ t. the Constitution fearing to be disturbed in his.quiell„slaf d . berg by an invasion from the Jews,, Turks, .or Sir, .the question of the Test and Corporation Acts Pr e ; sents an. example well worthy of consideration. It 1,2 shown us the possibility of a general agreement being blished, even where danger was most apprehended , a n where prejudices were most inveterate, by mean. , of pru dence and conciliation. We have seen that it if. p °4- sible to discover a compromise, and negociate a treaty' , t e was capable of allaying the strongest apprehensions an d a most feverish excitement. We have it now established 3' a principle, on the authority of the Right Reverend P re ; lens, that a test is exceptionable and inexpedient se a qualification ; and I am sure that those Right Reve 1111 „ Prelates, who displayed so much liberality and wisdom ot: the subject of the repeal of the Test and Corporation ite, ° will bring their minds to the consideration of the Cot" . / lie Question, and will reflect upon the peculiar cruelttou the situation in which the Roman Catholic is placed. !, a0 tell him that society distrusts him on account of lc which he most reveres—you tell him he is iticoP e of performing his duties towards the State, on ace of :p of that upon which he is conscious is founde d his morality and right feeling --you debar him froi ' I , freedom of mind and conscience, treating that as his sb °lll- and reproach which he is wont to contemplate as his eoa tcs s lation and his glory. A wound is inflicted on hint Oa affects the noblest p ar t o f man • an: a tt ac k i s m ade es l ilt heart and conscience through that which he moat vene rate : on earth. I said before, that religious liberty is the r e° sacred and inviolable of the rights of man. I said, t? ° il that it was a badge of civilization that had advanced li lt us in our progress to the situation we once held in the ea t of civilized society. This situation was only lost by may similar to those that have been lately repealed. We of now retrieve the station we did occupy amongst the ban d civilized nations, and which we abandoned voluntary this subject of religious liberty. It is in barbarous CO tries alone that the inhabitants look merely to laws 0 ing their bodily comfort. In civilized States man se c t° the enjoyment of the fearless exercise of his reason in ose , , ters of opinion—of the unbounded authOrity of cons ci l! over action. The liberty of exercising the religion th e may best please him, without let or itapedimeut, is nu . great and inherent right of man. But let me ask _a,Y what is the application of the principle of religious liber',„.,l and so far as it applies to the Roman Catholics of I reu ra I agree with the Hon. Member for Louth, that it it s , peculiar one. Here we have not to deal with a !l e d tered communion, but w i t h a nation who are exclou.tb from the common b enefits of the Constitution-lby a community distinguished by race, by language' a s religion, and, above all, by that visible mark of .10 , encompassing fro ntier which imparts a stronge r l it e pression of n ationality than any thing else can ---W tne' people united by long suff er i ng , by th e stirring . mory of great deeds, and by a venerable and legitimat e 1 0 4 whether god ien b etween it be then ot s t e o c which t the they S i r, becau se entit ed tiqu i ty . 7 .-with a people equally distinguished by their fle t ;o as their valour, And, Sir, it is more difficult, for. situp reasons. to legislate with respect to them than a 5 °14 it i • fsorlensastisaenfealtopretifduesenituhseraft'cbis; strongly against oppression. And, Sir, is it possible t it has not been universally perceived that the gneati9a. ide otap ies j orreslerciviaongottliieurA:-.0„,/ t will be disputed, that whethei the connection is to be P t , t t w ini o e co to un d t ee r served, be'decided by the proceedings of Parliaml„ and Ido not say to-day or to-morrow, but at no very elpe stant period. I conjure the House, accordingly, mit' diverted from this great question by any stibtletieS e t ' y theologic dor a theoretical nature. Let as look only 0 4 4. h9rrorq of a civil war, with all' the Adjuncts that ntoY e a il t ' low in its train—let us reflect that a jealousy does ,I )r of, against England, on the Nit of the other States of ur , who envy her proud and pre-eininent situation, an d ' b s a e e should the unfortunate event at which I hive glancedie place, we must naturally expect the interference o f e b b Foreign Powers. And, Sir, after the statement mad. id Or o . my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) of the , progress of disaffection to the Government, who could F ry tend to calculate or determine the rapidity of their ?sir, greys to one that shall be far worse. Many opinions, ever have been given on this subject, but of all eat I bit" dr I h ard, I have, no hesitation in declaring that that of in Patton is the ton on the one side, out openly and s; and rapine calls stand those who sa; any means extract 1 Ireland-4 can and commend peace an Of the meaning of t but it must be at a not, by an ill-timed of these v . reat claim that matte r of corn note, would he a them ternecnhe r the CO or 70 years ago liberality. Th e re ] --the voice of her and %tatesnaen......we Alin, in that day ) v 'Went i nvective in'' Ireland were here i Let the British Par the VINO cases, and nus °I t hetn, upon a 1 ,. i n '' of an unju ' a P as he alluded instructed a wise c the PraYer of the I pann, the G overn vi : l. ; la ell e k e r u ein t g ury. 1 B nree‘(.ivining i Bt Prate the dana-erous St r 0 n g anti-eatholi 'eeinecl a of n ecess i t dor, Friends of f iomiab -• , the 7 . ,., ti ng been this n ,**" uevasioned bit 7 : t , r ,° 7 4' to bear, ."' not yield the ,Rift, them from us 'Kt not pretend t om i Illat Wall their imp fr , - a man like Ivaose benevolence 34113 Y Ltcknowledged „ . , 4 't but call upon i -444 tea the mitsch 4 hee of such a poi w 're too many wl Wer e prou e to talk _,rY to be manit n '-'• For his ow Tetnetnherir.g 4444 beard t h em d '''.: hieh n ever wash h~tn t 1,3 hina, at le as t ; Tan for th e c ' r • (Hear, b ear C 1 of of th e p r i g :ltne, when he , 7: l) ,.: 4 ttnent so n s tt i' ' ' 'ratene FA a r --°te Which were to ti ,e . . ] t 4,, .Lre in his I; hex should s '? 4 , than yield ' 414, t'4, tha t he yea r ISI n ,t House the ~. e principl e i c ,,, 4 ' Put no Alin ;h e Parli ament a 5 1i1t7.g..11, • t ,4ltheepn Parterma Pl ot ii i i 'F44 t Hon. Gent , t 0,,, i that the col l'i country was, t 2°:tenantion in t 7 It b W ere, in the 4L his Piero of the Z ii - VI , of his Alai ,: z. ;: eal cat 111:1e3a ci t r,htalt e . I lz u n ee, tri 1 inr t e. (e4i t pliti o .il, ocet(iyenti,enchlpeoeo upss Neat ",ostry, which 2i(l'oted the hopes : 1 4ta tt--- (Load c i t 4t e that the ma: .0 11 , -- f ~ 'v had suffice ' 44 any future Piesi Was no t th ' 4 "oe sort of hop mt r look round - 1 1 % i t '• Gentleman. ' t a r i t ' l did exceptit ,C e t't, who, for I 'et side of the talents like the I vase like this, be the influence Cif. I:eedem of ()pink oettee which thi „,,,,, hopes a n d 11 a tthe n ob] tr y ilii Were enlists 11,, t P ince youth ,Ifisiiihiliel otsifici:,:al,halntu(..rhr.:: lit: ), to win the! dot t o to emanate 111:5:11 t , t :' ,viltit Ili\at '''i(lt' i l' i i ,4 : 11 r ,,,it tV: t, c i )13i L,.. e 3 ,111 ‘° ti af l leb } 11‘, 4 net ah. fl .l°9S tootte l l a 4 PattO en er rso ' e ii i r:f a i r a . h tl ° ,,, e e tt T r Un et o i dn h ' I S tr a i s h ' i hs 'of hci ihd i ' i o l e en ., 'ia i o i l o f e te p( d an xt i gnh i o n h , ti dß et regi : r ° u h(bfa k i ßn i' oistinsine(tetnaesideat your , 1 ' ' 1 . ' ti'tlanon ; and h, W h te ll ti t 4,ttiull t I i tt e t 1. t tr i a l , i ot h il, e ii r ec w e Q d (e rsti,, ' e t ,, 4 , tl ed in genera tiTjht feelings, e.; with the v ,,,. °NI learn that tt,Lll; Were arrt tO7 Youth °fir 44eject place, t he s e judgment 1 ' t 'll i,b,‘ , L t i i ti ' Ll ,, ,t,lektl t t_:4l, Pl hr l i la k ef , f 7 444 w ei % ,:tririi 1 16,..,it c'( : ) :1 ilti 16t 9 ii 4 ' 11 : 1. ki . i., ,00 1 , ,i 1 l ee ie.icktp t i‘ i iill ' i t t i t 1, evict a t ao th e. 7:11:n t I g eg i„ or teen , e ,riat aeodj4,od;.wrtr 'namely, li :) ! e ,, ni e: ;01n i adaon l e s , et tr4 a il u trit i l i t elife 40 tu eyr i i t ,I l b h ol n s h a d ,.€ 1 f l i i i i 1 . tat' " 1 t*lt • ' Ptt l , Of Lime' ,h,4, ever, , 44,11, ( }} ear, of tll'ees (the it t he 44! oti.in, cue p titl 4 , Lo n 0 1 cd hi, i iitile ad tioa„ il'agploy Alneki_ 4 depr hat e lt fro r , i lie,di."4.°Y‘vithd i oerc;: t t 4 d ben N' !at, y : P ° " , in the ou a ru " d e that' l'l ß l it Hon t h 'ive rely 41tira Perlis .tatlee racharnent to 1 ce h i ed t 0 p kin ii