The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-16 00:00:00

i 11 1 , v NT lIN G EDITION , LICENSE OF COUNSEL. -.se— an lisp end article upon the eri final prceedure of the Eng. Scotch Courts, in the last number of thu_ I s Y t e af s e t : milwer &view, cent tins some artnatieittb 1 Tricots en this subject whiuh Might to be gener a a ti lly_c e ire r u e : let ed , Tho occasion Which gave rise to it wits the 0 , lhatkable speech of Mr. Charles Philips in in defence °E---1 t e i ° in ui : v . °iskr . wij.e.n shocked . the public t%s on li t a h e e rho ~iat tlio Adroo.ate had exceeded u of duty. tvfito• howeVer (Mr. Chadwick, we believe}, rife of hin the of rt, tr show that the defence came Wliam' Paints out ' 41 4 Lid down by the bar of England,_ thin and, a erPat Olney other abserd defeat in the lii•tigliiii iees-rtk•h:th impede and often thee . ?dso_f ffl'ee. Amon ' sonle of these are the annoyances e. r t e n s r p o e i c 7 . 1 . 4 (1 '1 ' ~ t e of p g roseeutions, the browbeati!ig 1 3''' .. 'e l rr t - .esa t s, the apathy, not to say aequieseen . ce , of r t a h c e . ,:l.sewhee ueJust imputations . are made on their er:a b ` l. ,or teracity, and Vac ab_erd practice a. to much praised s. petit uutt.tes aid M tgitt,ates, orter b %thin to convict i( 1 , g ivens lest tatty should say au: inr , to interrogates? I s" , r .:',' n % e lv:e ; 8 1 g i n I, the de e f . s t u Y h b e j o%ivreer workings i extract ti g s of f the t w o t g w r remarkable k a differentlol e I Pirtris in England and Sectl 'rid. "rite prattleal superiority of the Scotch . law, though esPohle ni eteredrnent, may be established by . ab . und• 1 ,... I: ~.. Ce. O ne rc litit s'l'len•- resift of the ca-eful „7,t a r,l(n a ion iA, that fewer preliminary cases eenvi e a t r ie e e sent for peeled and fewer persons tried i don e b sc tf a n p l e Sus for t,eitl therm obtain ready discharge eierimin n al n di,u l '‘rteie v .s, aid the pursuit i accounting iis h tter of interrogating suspec t ed .•e. her_trt(al. Bet for the powe!._apt tin Stewart, public 44_?n,sr, which was ex.erciselh,by t; I)4:6lth,eu fpoci.,ll at Edinburgh, in his c opacity of Burke and Hare whose have e g s e c i a ldt p e e d ne , r otioilli and several murderers,. I ,' , na doubt can be entertained, ! . aave . c!c:fe Thei ',Wand, to tie get injury of public Justic .. Pro i ' -' ' , ,eeLure being shorter, and parties come ietleyed from the burthen of prosecution, ad private individuals being fewer persons who I Q 4 r ,, wer d with greater readiness, a tc "co prosecuted will hesit . a u t s e tie t e o ;, g , o a forward i a s H : l ' 44 , time in aid of public buti Lid.ea in.aeother piece that, trial tl 'cg of the plate before t. e i 1 f e o f r c the eur voi accidental s i er vies hallelaletl, the probabilities were the defence .would d to v t e h a Pre e vie 4 l:2el and that his case would bavebecn of the 6',.,u1d, as an instance an in kii,n, ',le murderer law in not permit t ing Scotland, i 'l/4tuevous defect cf our as in :reetliate verdict of not proven • Iltiv ) • 441loWinv, ti e party to be again I tried o h n e, t ie h r e a di t _ e c i o st v . j e k r : y j i 4 thi, to e ice.' The writer labours 1 . 1 . s instance. Tt,c liv of Scotland, we believe t , h i e s :leiBt,'.'l)rthe Fame as that , of m r• 1, i , c( a crimi r al trae'and regarding jury, 0.,L1Y aeleits the prisoner 1; g i l i verdict lfers ' Ot that a f t io t t he. proven ; 0 4 111 s , t i r oo • g impressions of . his en g bu il t r, convicting him. It punish es ' ll ' l .o 1 1411 i not warrant them in F though the evidence b • affixing a sue . _ i f e hi, 0 4 moral point of s'e•v 3 we rpa' n o character for life. With these remarks,, dp o l o pro li ~0' for givin . g , the following a subject so impor tant e l : tri r o t l l,:i sl l t , i;ilt, e 2 ::(- do e f l lc o ta ta community article :..... o n copious ex ta tr n a t c t t o s PT,,! v . Of any respecta 11 y, pen b al l. p t roe w e h d a ur b e p rtehslaetiee ever fteewd av is e once prosecuted t e ',' 14 evidence in any of our penal courts,_ fte teeslainced voluntarily to prosecute or 6 eeveiede'nee.a kto,i'attiune. Part, no , thisdou d bt iess of efm e re i lu m c p t e a s n e e d e e t e s th h cto the trouble an procedure, 4 avirasneutor or witness by fire mode of the forms, which afford to'-'4,slY e ncumbered as it th ril.et Protection to the i i s nn w o . it e l e t n a t, me a7 t d se g r i i v o c us only t llure' uleielpe to the guilty; I° biiiiiie teluctanee is the dislike of persons otsf of any h the e n p r s 1 .1 ..- 1 s o e 3 i . ~t e esP o s e themselves to thes or r ssa fl u e l plied impute lie ns - e r" n iel,—to their exp . res fre stet , 131 nl endacity ;—to thei f r ece witnesses,— I whia`n their efforts to .co perious deportment assee _ ts vicst el ' and ordinary respectabitty al . - i. , sll rnod ty timidly only serve to invite, and ford, fin Ani s innocence or I,llprotection. persons roe., ke_following instaece which came to our te kn im ow o le ie d a g t e e 1t1e, 18 7, ;Pt en of the reluctance of oi,,,t'n'es in a matter w 1 1 , as w itnesses :—" As we were might bring them into laodyNe', near Windsor, we saw near rowing NI marl lb sting , - of 4 . ~, said a you n n e g ar p_e t n h t e le b m a a n o n k n , s w t t h h h o e e ~ Did ta,,,, 94 of a boating party. for ff and rowed assay, and it, e lce it `r.'---‘• No, we kept o you go near to hiv"gitt have commi-ted ourselves am as ine w d in Court i *o ehre,ade ourselves liable to be ex that there are . itnesses, . f. MA4`l kone near it." We apprehend . m king any lkillersons who have been . enga . ged ,If peg other investigations in wine et experienced the 14111:44es is involved, who l'ayL r ' e n spectable character . h th in e e - x n amination still e e , r cY with which Die 4 / `!`le the discloser:- fac that they may a taP,P l an, when it is made apparent eersoofes of facts known to be in their be N et Von to give their testimony ti, e of ° n When an outcry, or is heard in the . vi o l et , ° f I . tress or suffering, iltiNets, it iset"no,rraWysour p s n o n u sounds them idle tss,„ ~ Pa • i Id assistance , o,theo who are seen to yield only ' the young,. o . r the tbe 1 educateda b o u r i o e of hi s ensiti ve ride past orhurry and forced on that r Pol i i le t drawn in as w i tnesses a from the :pet, for f ear e. 1 ) 1 ,7 1 4 , t age, a co urt o f l aw , IlitLi""C attention is sometimes awarded in tote Pecuniary penalties which er r e oused by the policevery and the newspapers .e eel (10 even murderous . who impose ki t h . arn indignation a,: Yainst magistrates willgeneral be .ta f‘n. i seel lear lequate pecuniary penalty Itilit';: notwithstanding punishments ; s —}'et it in 104 414" Police magistrates ar s ueht earnestly preferred and :sought by the is the one earn th c e able to impose, that t 4, e Party that to send the c injured, and the me lelistrate in the consciousness . punishment is inflicted ri. inflict another and a All t c , . jury is to in IN, trial before a Tile injury on the tor. the Prose" extraordinary in of its Breda case of Courvoisierwas ;whilst the procedure of the to tal .stances of the crime, an exhibition o tottibleelY Presented to the ; public; lcourts, and has brought the i;°°,Practice in our criminal the description tit., 4trlsters before the public to justify e right defenders of 4440 °f them' as "indiscriminai utterance of truth or f ali e Z t °n 7. ., by the indiscriminate atae. On the occa i se o l4 l . °4--- ---as it may serve their e petition on this subject to th t 4 the presentation of a o,am said_ . 'it e ase of Lords, Lord Brougham remind your Lordships, Nii th °nee before took leave to r r e:u are many whom it '1113,1)1.'4 u nnecessary, bat ti advocate, by the sa rel e nee-lful to remind, that an - his client, knows in the died der3' °f his connection with tk' e hot ee r son in the world— "at the of that office but one per li 'cot, and none other." for a dcfinitinn 4f the Lordship might have been asked wherein diet 4 , 1 1ty ?, Lordship duty, and the authorities the counsel, who ola-f•;,' set forth. According to him, to know that kaii r 4 client a murderer or a robber, is eper or robber, and " none othehris Lordship, " by sil t , e serve that client," continues at all hazards . and co sts moans to protect that client already nee joteiiesfs to all others" ' [even the party i s the highest +nil most and amongst others himself, to ." I lia unquestioned of his dutieie mistaken when he as -I,Nej ele°rdslii was assuredly . n ed. It had 6e fed ',eat the li dut was then Rationaleunquesta? 0. Jud i. eibiePewerful:y ues y tioned in the " ter l questioned, 041 '.5e1,0„ " cl we hope it will be furt s l ueb a degrade 14 City; the Bur ' , Jill be relieved from . ted by commen se ttl Y, tie 1 1 • d t a practice dicta acklit ( 1 / 4 ea ate 01, Y. the suffering, the nd I , regard the alarm, . to .e must not rc . any tth „lent, d e tl n whichhe cr,,, C, ruc ,o , may bring upon I, T be called upon to re : kr(l th i s will, however,. torment, indiscrimi '11l I ' l Ol, l s a arm, th i s su ff e ring, ersions on resvet abli, Yatid wentord inflicted by a 'f? , witn . . Y Courts of JUst i el *--- - N esses in our duties of a pat, lot from 11 1(; ° -4Y, separating even the reckless of the NI °f On advocate, he must g o on, 1 be to intolve hi, 'll•l^ti • • '( id unhaPP' 5 1 ee '• - ces if his fate sno.l ~ '''ll4l. . 3 ' his client. . ‘,. y 1:: confusiop, tor , ~ _..ty of this ex trs e vent ure d o u b t the legal authority N,t eto made out in law, ro 00 Pretenien, and were it . . fully s rily challenged a tesapileeive that it may be peremp Le d morality. 141,3Jernitious to public jestice an of Bank ttlote,`l,,e cours e of his speech on the subject that— ,' - A' k,euitt Bill, Lord Brougham stated, ex tttiti;',°Y nian wh o wi s h es to see talents beneficially fLaw. __ I, u'Lwould do well to go into a f Court of " this the ttre, on 'ILi ht.,11, course of his description ° • “uished a per ' u4L di' himself e t or sup was so distinguished e .e L I he says..- orte have the opp . d ry r,`riury see the witness ; they' giving his cvi tletk: watehloc, his demeanour while , ,_ t . ~, awl ' ~,bin.t.e I to a cross. -ti,, i ~ then they see him ee counsel, comforting l aid ult '°n ; after which comes his Ise testort after the flacrel -eoe 1 ng, as it were, the poor . man, broken up the ete,r,, 'e has undergone, and setting cross-examination. Ai r of of tl- 1 • -., ib ', the t er ,• e wttncvs, uamagc ) of the %hi e , the cros s - examination adverse counsel, for a me aleet° th e n impaired the credit of the witnessho restores and ,7 4 hf ori ge n cornet the skilful counsel, w . ‘lroi tv -t the poor man, and gives him a better oppor himself right ItkitVilicif eXplaining the case and setting being over on "Qti the J'l,Y, until at last the conflict ...... th • ' l `ies, tl • I I before e ,541. t,, -e ea &acne° of the witness is au y I n 1 , ' skill and of the sol 4 ''" the self-laudation of their own appears to N at 4 ttleir own ta'eets, nO perce ption duced by the i oei str e . s to the effects which must be ki n skill to respectable 41 W 01141414 e application of such s What person t•f t ' l 3 te ue trustworthy witnesses.. see'.llectatil tv, who is acquainted wit h the practice, tie, bellyet'lurit- come forward in aid . of . public jus -0 truthful 0. 11 lie , A il u.,,,aware thr.t no . 4P4ltN,hilt protect him from having his credit .. 11' else"" 1, ' I 1 • tations ; f ro m undergoing i 11 2 11 )'' "r Imp " unscrupulous tongue? .C.il .t bt'.' ations of an unscrupu - a " of retiring 11 (t hit e sPect 5d of any .i poor m-n, n to endure ti lis e', thet he will be induced voluntarily.•atur , on a Duli;ilietion of pain from the forensic gladiator will have his le,„ 1 ,• a rena, by any assurances that he will be ""- It - ' O4 er (1' -. i' endthat he l nr,,p, eit set up, f the counsel o ' l te e 5 ,"d " comfoito " by the skill o e., - arbo r et ebe • stee. unscrupulous ne e , Practice gives pre eminence to the .Roger or i . - " 4" who cen withstand such assadt... Sir -La -, ttia t ', % ,' ill his Life of Sir Dudley North," re lates ill soni 'e la 7 , '• of Turkey, like our absurd law of evi de nce w.. -..t' "ses rtquired the testimony of two it aealsts in roof of each fact, and that a practice had, in consequence atisco, and had obt lire] the satiation df general .opinion, of using Wise witness iii proof of those facts which admitted only of one wit near. Sir Dudley North, while in Turkey, hied nu merous disputes which it became necessary to settle by " and," says his biographer— " Our merchants found by experience, that in a direct fact a false witness was a surer card than a true one ; for if the judge has a mind to baffle a testimony, an honest, harmless witness that doth not know his play cannot so well stand his many captious questions as a false witness used to the trade will do ; for he heath been exercised, and is prepared for such handling, and can clear himself, when the other will be confounded ; therefore circumstances may be such as to make the false one more eligible." Many exemplifications might be given of the "hand ling'' which a bong fide witness will somerimes receive, Iu cases where theta is no opportunity of casting direct imputations upon him. We might adduce such prac tices as that of the advocate turning his eyes away from the witness-box whilst ha asks the witness a ques tion. The simple witness, doubting whether the question was addressed to him, or believing that it was addressed to some one else, twit rtes, or &es not answer. When the witness has evidently hat his silr-peasessior, he is asked, in a thundering tone, why he is so reluctant to answer : or if that does not promise success, he is plied with another question which leads him away from explanation, and thus an impression is pro bably made on the minds of the inexperienced jurymen, that the witness had been fearful of the effect of his answer, and had, for sinister purposes withheld it. The following is an instance of the practice of Garrow, who, was held up as a " masterly cross-examiner." The case was that of a witless who was deaf, and whose deaf ness it was this advocate's part to make appear pro. tended. He said to the witness, in a low tone, "So you have the misfortune to be deaf ?"—" Yes , s ir ." — You have great difficulty in hearine ' ?"—' Yes, sir, very."—" And it was not till I raised my voice thus (lowering it still more), that you could hear what I said at all ?"—" No, sir." Tile Jury and the whole of the auditory roared with laughter, and the a itness might as well have been utterly deaf and dumb too, for the service of his testimony in the case of justice. Ana yet any person of experience with individuals hard of hearing, knows well (and no one kno trs better than the counsel) that disc nett.eis of enuncia. tion will oft ma, bett.3r than Inudnes., enable a witness to hear or comprehend what is addressed to him. Ia this inst ince the enune'ation of the advocate was painfully distinct ; and it might be that the deaf witness sow what the cross-examiner said, rather than heard it ; the counsel's voice looked loud, and tl:e witness believed it to be so. It is net often that this noxious ingenuity, or any in genuity what , ver, is exercised for such purposes et the courts adverted to ; there the weapon of attack is chiefly imperious and coarse deportment, in a word, bullying. Tnis is often carried to an extent which arouses the sympathy of jurors for the witness, and ex cites them against the cause in behalf of which it is used (as is well known to those who use it), but no matter ; the case being hopeless, it affords the appear ance of a defence ; and, as one of the practit oners in the Old Bailey once alleged in a brawl with anotl er, graffi2s the low and ignorant client and his associat As they went out of court they may be overheard . in the avenues using such langu a g e as this— " The jury went against us, but how -- worked for us ! how he did give it to that d—d witness." We sh recal to recollection sonic incidents which occurred on the trial of Courvoisier, as illuttrative of the common style of usurpation of the functions of the Judge by the counsel of our criminal courts. It is to be borne in mind, that twenty-four hours before the defence was made, Mr. Phillips , the p risoner ' s counsel, had received the confession of the prisoner's guilt. Toe rule which the bar has prescribed to itself in such cases is thus stated in an article in the Edinburgh Review, said to have been written by an eminent counsel, No. 79, Masch, 1824 : " even in the very few instances where the accused has entrusted his defender with a full confession of his crime, we hold it to be clear that he may still be law fully defended:' That the prisoner should be defended, law fully defended, we do not deny ; we admit that it is certainly a useful rule that the bar, having a privilege of defending and accusing persons, should not be al lowed to refuse their services to any person who may please to retain them. Though a counsel may pro perly be bound to defend an accused person, it does not follow that he is bound to defend in aey way, to make an immoral defence—and still less does it follow, that when hired for defence of the accused, that lie is engaged to attack those who arc not accused. We have quoted the doctrice in its common, wide, and un restrained generality, to show that the rule of the bar is with Mr. Phillips. But we are assured that Mr. Phillips is-really a man of refined perceptions, and, like Lord Brougham in private life, a man of kindly feel ing ; and probably being uneasy at the duty which the rule imposed upon him, it is stared that before he made his defence he privately communicated the fact of the confession to the judge, and obtained his sanction to the doctrine that be must '' do his beat" for the pri soner. With the knowledge of the fact of the pri soner's guilt, the counsel assailed one of the witnesses— Madame nolans, the wife of the keeper of a foreign tavern in Lcice.ter-square, after having, without any other ground than that there was a billiard-table in the house, charged her with being the keeper of a gam bling-house.—(The writer here quotes the attack on Madame Piolans, and the " ruffians," "gang," " blood hounds,"" miscreants" of the police, with the remark able peroration of Mr. Phillips). Whilst adverting to the rules of behaviour current amongst the class of gentlemen, we must remark that it is one rule to put a double restiaint upon themselves where they are protected, as in the cases of clergy men and old men. Those who have been present in our common law courts, will say whether the bar does not avail itself of its authoritative protection to cast off all restraints against all parties. To serve the client by " elt expedient means, to protect that client t ail hazards and costs to all others," or, according to the Noble and Learned Lord who vindicates the practice as a duty, to disregard the "alarm, the suffer ing, the torment, the destruction, he may bring upon any ethers, we have seen innocent and respectabie females so confused, and assailed with such imperious gestures and. condemnatory tones, on the assumptions (as groundless as the assumptions in the conspicuous case of Caurvoi-. sier) thatthey hadcommittcd perjury, as would make any father or brother shudder at exposing daughter or sister to, and in such a manner as the counsel using the " ex ped'ent means" neither coed I nor would use under any circumstances in respectable private society. The most demoralizing effect produced by these exhibitions ap pears to us to be the treatment given to persons of the labouring classes, servants, or policemen. If good con duct is to be promoted in them, ore means of doing so is surely to increase their estipiation of the value of , character ; one means of raising their moral perceptions is rather to assume that they are keenly alive to the pleasures and pains of self and social estimaiion, than that they are dead to them.• We have frequeutly witnessed such treatment of witnesses as that displayed in the case of Ceurvoisier, but we never happened to witness 'an att.rmpt " to comfort" the shattered wit ness of that class. Though the depraved state of the bar permits the practice of such inflictions in pubic trials, it does not prevent the Judge from doing justice, by en deavouring to soothe the irritation, and at the same; time manifesting the feelings of a geetleman. Obtuseness of feeling, and sympathy with the prac tices of ti.e bar from which they have been taken, are the chief reasons which suggest themselves for this otherwise unaccountable apathy of the bunch on this subject. In more than one instance the deportment of the Judge lass afforded the example of habitual im periousness, and justifies the suggestion. In other cases, from what is well known oh the character and superior practice of some of the Judges when at the bar, there can be litt'e doubt that they have a suffi ciently nice peteeption of the feelings of bona fide wit nesses to enable them, in the character of Judge, to protect such persons, yet they fail to do so. The want of this very common benevolence is ascribable to the pusillanimity of men of keen sensibility, whose infirmity, whose cowardice we might properly say, pre; ents them from giving pain by strong expressions, either in direct reproof of those whom they have daily in their pre seace, or in protecting from assaults those whom they may never see again. The evil complained of is, it appears to us, impli cated in the rules that a prisoner shall be protected against being " compelled" to criminate bin self, and in the practice of the English courts, that the character of the prisoner's defence shall not affeel the sentence. The practical rules of law which we should propose for the abatement of the evil, in addition to the real ex amination of the accused, would be to the following ef- fed.— That no man, whether the accused or his agent, shall be allowed to use fi.lio. accusations, or do that in Court for his defence wh:ch he would be punislitae for doing nut of Court, for any other purpose than for his defence. That tl:e counsel shall not assume a witness to be untrustworthy, or be allnwed to treat him as such, un less upon some fact set forth in his brief, which shall be producib'e in Court. That the attorney shall be res:plnsible for the exer• eise of reasonable care in the preparation of instruc tions, that no groundless or wilfully false imputations be used in the defence. It is said we abound in mercy, but we give so much of it to the gulty that we have none to spare for the innocent. Criminal justice has been made to vacillate to this eouttri betweea two stts of blind presump tions,—.the ancient one, which p:estuned guilt in all who were accused„ and the modern one, which pre sumes thßt a ll who arc accused are innocent, and which, even after conviction, overlooks the party injured and the tendency of the crime, and bestows unbounded sympathy on the criminal. A treatise might be wvittNi in illustration of the' mischiefs of acting on presumptions, when the facts of the particu lar eas© are developed and require none, Our E SUN, LON rsifY . ,'., TUE3DAY, MARCH 16, 1341 English praetce, it appears to us, requires the. tertiunt qui - 1 of " not proven." The sympathies of the 01(1 Bailey bar are, w 6 must say, on Cid same side with their In ire, and with all the inmates of the gaol ; eith them, rll policemen are what they were designated in Courvoisier's case, bloodbounds,—and witnesses, per secutors of the innocent. Entire innocence is always in peril in the dock, and has no other security than in the aid of counsel. When an extension of summary punish ments in the case of juvenile delinquents was lately proposed, the Old Bailey bar was in arms for the de fence of the right of Jury triels, and the legislature was scared from much needed and highly beneficial reterm by their outcries of danger to the innocent. • The very rule for which the English practitioners endeavour to maintain a superstitious awe, the rule forbidding the interrogation of the accused in any st lee of the procedure, either at what was originally intended to be his examination, or at tie trial,—that rule which shuts the mouth of the guilty for fear he may commit himself, also shuts the mouth of the innocent man who may be accused, and prevents him giving the circum stantial explanations which he ; lane could give in answer to any questions put to hire. Au innocent person could really be in no more dangerous hands than in those of a practitioner of the class belonging to the criminal courts, who inveteretely act on the latent ,and cannot open his that their client is guilt his mou.h svtliout endangering himself. In the doubtful case where an accused person woull, by his explanations in answer to fie interrogatories of a judicious Magistrate, obtain an earle liberation, hav ing h's tongue tied by the English procedu e, being advised, as he arrays is, by his attorney and counsel, when he has one, " not to disclose his defence," but " to reserve himself until his trial,"—he is committed and endures a long term of imprisonment,4l:ea an anxious trial, in itself a punishment, before he obtains his ac quittal. And here on the favourite legal ground for the exclusion of testimony, viz , interns`, we might fairly challenge the competency of the pract:t'oners of the criminal courts to give an opinion on the subj ct. If such a question were determined merely by dicta, we believe the disinterested practitioner! of other courts would as eat to the reform. An titer ley who resists the commits al of his client for trial, or who favours such explanations as may have that effect at the first stage of the procedure, feveurs a course in which some five or ten guineas of costs arc obtainable, in stead of a prolonged course of severe! hazardous stages, from which twenty, thirty, fifty, or a hue dred guineas of emolument are obt iirel, or more, according to the means of the accused ; who, inde pendently of any question of guilt or innocence, may always in this petition be tarmed "a v:etins of the law." The substitution of a pure procedu e for the present course in England, which gives to the ninety per emit. of clear and undoubted cases of guilt, de fences on such false assumptions of persecuted inno cence, and of malice and dishonesty of witnesses, as were displayed in the defence of Courvoisier, would present to the imagination of the practitioner the appa rent loss of ninety per cent. of his business—we say ap parent, because the professional aid of nuneats de prison would nevertheless be frequently required t submit ex tenuating circumstances. Summary convictions before the professional Magistrate would, it must be confessed, occasion a dire diminution of business and professional emoluments in the superior Courts ; and wis might put it to the gentlemen who practise in them, whether they arc competent t) judge calmly of anything which may so powerfully affect them. LAW INTELLIGENCE. ROLLS' COURT, M.4nen 15. BOURNE V. TILE PENINSULAR AND ORIENTAL STEAM NAVIGATION COMPANY, AND HARTLEY. This was a maion on behalf of the plaintiff for an in junction to restrain the defendant, [dal t'ey, from seibeg or transferring, three ite tm-vessels called the Braganza, the Royal Tar, and the Tagus, to the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. The object of the appli cation wag to prevent the defendants from violving an agreement into which the plaintiff all-ged they had en tered with hitn,the plaintiff being the patentee of an inven tion for improvements in steam machinery, and which itnprovement, it was said, the defendants had engaged to apply to certain wsstls belonging to them, and to pay to the plaintiff, as a remuneration, one-third of the amount of the saving of fuel which might be made by means of his machinery. We defer a detatled report until both sides shall have been heard. The case, in which there is a great mass of conflicting evidence, is likely to occupy a couple of days. .• • SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS. FROM THE DAILY PAPERS yr YESTERDAY. (From the Globe.) The Times has returned to the question of tl e St Sulpice Se ninary. On Tuesday last we answered its article of the preceding day. It now, on the very day of the discussion, returns to the matter. We cannot now touch upon every point of sophiAry in its oLscrva tions, nor unravel the jumble of ideas into which it has purposely fallen. Our Contemporary's notion as ta the supremacy of the Sovereign, to which he triumphantly refers, is perfectly unsound. It is a supremacy in tem poral not in ecclesiastical matters : it is not negative of different churcl7e.7, but the reverse. Henry VIII. was declared head, not of the Lutheran but of the Catho lic church ; and though many discouragerrenti were employed in after times to put down the latter church, they have since . ben removed, and it is, if not an Eita bliehed, a recognised Church. The case is the re' erse in Canada. No such discourngementsba , e been emrleyed there ; and f they had, it would not only have been con trary to good faith, bat we shoal I have lost Canada fore this, as we shall if we don't mind what we are about. The notion in Canada is that the Catholic is an established religion there. As to the poi- t of national organ or not, that is quite a different affair. A Church may be, as we have ic stances in other countries, an Established Church, albeit not the national organ in religious matters. With respect to the passage quoted in the former Canada Act, that it was not intended to operate, nor did it operate, as a defeaz ince of the right of prope ty or lands enjoyed by the Seminary of Sr. Suipice—it sim ply operated to take away the claim for the future to tithes, dues, and other persona payments, &c., from individuals not of the Roman Catholic faith. The other points we need not again refer to. The doughty if shop is, w e bcliev not. very strong in the hole of persuading, even his own Carty of the policy of insulting the Ca tholics of Canada, and repudiating ;he spirit, if not terms, of treaties and laws which had teen - acted upon for so long a time. (From the Standard). We should be extremely sorry to be tbligel to fear that public attention is not steadly fixei upon the debate which will take place this night in the House of Lards upon the Bishop of Exeter's motion relative to the San Sulpice Ordinance. The affa'r is, as regards the present and the future, of a degree of importance which it is impossible to overrate. Toe House of Lords, if we may respectfully speak the truth, is upon its trial before the people. if the Ilouse decide according to law, and in the spir't of the Protestant Comf tution, it will regain the position in the opinion of the country which iv occu pied two 3 ears ago. If, yielding to any iDfillftle , , how much soever respecteil, it connive at revoking the Reformation, it will continue to sink, or— we must not conceal the truth—it has been sinking since the passing of the Irish Municipal Corporation Bill, the Clergy Reserves Confiscation Bill, - and soma other such Bills. We know as well as any can that the maintenance of its proper rl lee by the House of Lards, is as necessary to the public good as to the safety of the aristocracy itself, arid that notbirg but a generrl ruin can follow the hurled ation of that branch of the sovereign power ; but the Peers cannot be saved in spite of them saves, and it weco the put of an enerril, net of a friend, to conceal from them the truth, that their hold upon public confidence has diminish el and is diminishing, under that guidarice to which they have teo oftee submitted. The question to be subm'tted to their Lordships is a simple one. It is this :—will they permit the Queen's Ministers to carry back her Ma jesty's empire to the superstitions of the fifte :nth and to the policy of the thirteenth century ? The ordinance signed by Lord Sydenham is in direct vio lation of the Acts of Henry the E'ghth, Edward the Sixth, and Elizabeth, for the e:tablishment of the Protestant faith in all the British dominions ; but it is more—it is in violation of the Acts of Henry the Se cond and Edward the First, for restraining the grasping cupidity of the Romish Church, and securing the inde pendence of the Church of Eigland, even while that Church remained in connection with the Papal Sec. SUICIDE OF A TAX-COLLECTOR.-0a Sun day afternoon the body of an elderly man in mourning wa; taken out of the NO-.v River, at H ,rnsey, and it was pre sently ascertained that the deceasei was Mr. Matthews who had been known many years aa a trade;man carrying on the busilcss of an oil and ckaurman i i the King,:Lind road. He had not long since, however, relinquiihed that business, anir retired to live at Dalimn, where he buried his wife about a fortnight age, since which he has btea in a dejected state of mind, in comequenee of his recent be reavcn ent and pecuniary difficulties. lie was a eallecl or of land tax, and had of late been repeatedly called upon is vain for a settlereent of accoutes, which he evaded from:i ne to time, and it is feared that a serious defalc,fon w.ll be diFcoterod , lie had been ini:sing since last Wedneseav, and was last seen on that day hovering about the r't or a t Hornsey. ' WARWICK STEEPLE ACES.—liigh expecta tions have been raised, and we have no doubt will be gcl tified to the fullest extent, by the announcement of not only one capital steeple race here, on Friday next, but another on the same day, and over the same ground, by farmers' and traders' horses, the Race Committe., very liberally offrred 20/. in addhien to the subscription arising from the entries. This double attraction vii 1, no doubt, bring to the field a large concourse of specta'ors, who will have an excellent view of the running, as. the scone 'of the exciting display will be admirably adapted to their convenience—the starting and the close of each race being at the front of the Grand Stand. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ---40..- HOUSE OF COMMONS,.IIIARcg 15 . The SPEAKER took the chair a' the usual tinD"-'• On the motion of Mr. STRUIT, the Derby Gas all was read a second time, and or to be com mitted. _ • The Eceleefield Inclosure Bill was read a second ime on the motion of Mr. BUSFIELD. The Collymeaon and the Southorpe Ineloture Bus were read a third time and passed, on the motion of Sir G. CLERK. Sir B. HALL presented peftions from the Dire:- tors of the poor, and the vestrymen of S. Pancras, against the Middlesex Sessions BPI. Oa the motion of Mr. H. BERKELEY, the Bristol als Bill read a second time and ordered t) be comm't Mr. BAINES moved the tecond reading of the North Midland Railway B]). 11... , ad a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. SHEPPARD pre:eTted a petition from a-nurn her of chemists and druggists agaiost the B 1l now before the House for Reforming the Method Profe;sion. Mr. C. BERKELEY presented a petition from Chcltmlinm to the same effect. Mr. DIVETT presented a petition from the Town Council of the Borough of Newport in favour of tke Jews' Declaration ; also from a congregation of Protestant Dissenters, complaining of the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts, and praying for the release of Mr. Baines, and for the abolition of Church-rates. Sr E. WILMOT presented a petition from War wickshire, praying for some a'teration in the New Poor -1 tw. Sir BENJAMIN BALL presented a petition from be borough of Mary lehone, against the Poor-law Con inuance Bill. Mr. TOWNELY PARKER, presentigl a petition from certain landholders in Lancashire, complaining of the inercwed expense to which tl:ey had been sub j eted by the operation of ae N.2w Poor-law Bill, and praying for a return to the ancient system ; also from twenty-s . x Guard als of :the Union of Preston, against the cont nuance of the powers of the Poor-law Corr.- their authority, and disputes consequently arose. After a certain period Lord Gleneig and the Commissioners agreed that Caret tin Hind,narsh could not carry 0:1 the affairs of the colony to any useful purpose, and Col. Gave ler was appointed Govereor in his stead. On his arrival he found the administration of justice, and every portion of the colonies in a most deplorable state. Subscepently it appeared that the expenditure very far exceeded the revenue of the colony. The etpenditure, which at first was about 20,0031. or 30,000/., rose to 80,000/. or 90,000/. a-year, and af terwards to the enormous expense of 120,000/. In July list the Commissioners reported that state of affairs, and be immediately said that that rate of expenditure must stop, that the Go vernor must be required to account for it ; and that as the Colony had been founded by Acts of Parliament., ho would immediately, at the commence ment of the next S rssion of Parliament, move for the appointment of a Committee to examine into the whole question of what ought to be done with respect to the Colony. Ie the month of November, after further representations from the Commissioners, aad re presentations of their tetsl inability to pay the bills which were drawn from the colony, he requeete 1 tie attention of the Treasury to the subject, and they appointed one of the Lords of the Traasury to make a Report to them with regard to the financial affairs of the colony. A Report was made, and tic opiciun of t'..e Treasury, as wel as his own opinion, was that in the exieting state of the anirs of the colony, it vas necessary, if the col my was to be pre• served,that Government shou'd propose to gueran tee the parties who were tilling ta lend their money on secu rity, and that a loan should be prop sel far that pur pose. The effect of that deel3ea'ion did not produce a loan to the colony, but it did quiet the alarm which at the moment prevaileti, and induced perties to withhold demands for payment of the expens, s that had been incurred till the nucting of Parliament. At the meeting of Parliament, as this was a subject exceedingly complicated in its nature, and as Palle ment itself by its own Acts protected the colony, he thought it was much better that a Conrail:ace should be appointed, of which the several Members might make themselves masters of the whole transac tion, that that he should enle ivour to explain the whel of the allies-of the colony to the Souse, and to adopt his opinion, because it had appeared to him that a demand for inquiry was certain t la:e made which it would not be posiible to resist. He had no hest,tion, however, in seating in what respect he thought the Acts re lating to South Australia were dell , ctive—in whet re spect they had contribute.] to the prece it state of affairs ain the colony, and what was the general course by which Parliament should be guided, without sying what pelted tr provisions should he made in legislating for the future in regard to this colony. The filet Act roasting to South Australia, was, as he conceived, founded on two general principles, one of them he thought an excee lingly sound and Useful principle—a principle which had been acted upon he!hre, to a certain degree, and which had been acted upon since to a much larger degree ; viz., the principle that uncultivated public lands in a colony, instead of being, as in former times, granted in very large proportions to individuals without the in :arts of cultivating them, should be sold at a cer tain price, and the price thus obt tined should be employed in sending labourers to the market—( Hear) and so induce people of capital to come forward in aid of the colony, and at the same time supply labour, so necessary for the progress of the new colony. So far as that principle was embodied in the South Austra• lien Act he conceived that Parliament acte I wisely in enacting it: But it appeared to him that at the same time they had adopted another principle that was far more doubtful, and in his opinion it was one that could not be carried out sue cessful'y in the colony of South Australia. That prin ciple was that the colony was to be what was called self supported ; that the whole of its expenses, administra tiv e judicial, and eth: rwise, was to be de frayed without auy demand being made upon the mother country. It was proposed that this should be done by two modes ; first, by the revenue received in the col my, and second, by the means afforded by tie emigration fund. Now he did not think that it was probable that the revenues of the colony could be able to pay the expanses that must naturally occur in a new colony. In a small colony of course the expenses of justice, &c., must be as great as in one that was six times larger, therefore the principle was not a sound one. In the second Bill there was a provi:ion that certain loans might be made upon the faith of the emigration fund, with a proviso that at the end of the year not more than one-fifth of the whole sums received from the sale of I tnd should he owing from the revenue fond. Tee. obvious consequence of that was that the colony was to be sup port el by loans. The intention was ti at elehough at certain times such loans were to be paid, yet there were to be large sums constantly borrowed, which were to defray the ordinary expenses of the celery. Now there I were various %vitas in which such a provision might be eteeeded with dangerous reeel:e. In the first place so long as such loans were [Anted, while the extent to which they could be raised was not defined, the local Government had net a sufficient check not to enter into needless expenditure. In the reet place the / I.rn went on the suppo:ition that there vas almost an incxheu.tible amount of loans, and that the sale of 1 wenn every year realise a certain suer. But it eves impossible to calculate tie profit which would be derived from such a source. In the third place, difli- culties may overtake the colony at its commencement, such, for instance, as the necessity for repe ling enemies, or repairing harbours, which might be Wended with great expense, and the colony might by those means become embarrassed ; so that the proposed system could no longer be carried, into effect. There was also in the second Act a provision, which was in itself very dangerous or totally impracticable. It said that there were to be loans on the emigration fund, but that at the end of the year the money was to be repaid up to a certain amount. Now the Commissioners might • go on incurring fresh loans, on the assumption that there would be means to repay them ; and, in the next place, it might be found impossible, as was the case last autumn, to comply with the provisions of the Act. When they had exhausted the emigration fund they had no re- 1 source for • making fresh - loans, and their.credit would have fallen. The persons who could lend the money would look to two things—first, tie revenue of the colonies, and then the expendituos, which might be . 100,000/, while the revenue was but 20,000/. Tnat would he no inducement to them to lead their money. They might next inquire into the future resources of the colony which might f e found inadequate to the demands on it. He had now stated in whit manner those embarrass meats of the colony had arisen. He thoeght those embarrassments were derived from the Acts of Par- I lianieut by which that colony was governel. He • regretted very much that that which he considered a sound principle, namely, the. sale of lands at a certain price, and the application of the sums arising from those sales—either in whole or in part—to tie purposes of immgration —that so sound a principle should t meet with approbation. The Act to which he lad re'erred had other previsions, which he thought were ruinous to the financial affairs of the colony. But while he stated that with regard to the finances of the colony—a - 1W he certainly would not express any strong opinion on the subject, he would say there were resources in the colony which • would fur nish means of paying off all the liabilities of the colony. It was a colony which, even at the present periol, contained very cosiderable resources with much industry, and with a considemble appearance of exertion, and it would, he was convinced, if it was sup potted by Parliament, get out of the difficulties which had arisen around it. He did not think that Parlia mcnt ought to agfel in the continuance of the present system. He bad very gre at doubts whether they ought to rase any money for the purposes which the Committee approved of-56,0001, which it wai pro posed should he applied to immigration ; however the Committee had adopted that course, and his (Lord John Russell's doubt was rather whether it was not better to hold an inquiry into what was preferable to adopt, than to make such an effort now. In proposing that they should relieve the colony from its financial embarrassments, it was not perhaps necessary that he ehould state his opinions es to the manner in which the colony should be in future governed—(Hear, hear)—but he Lid no hesitation in stating that he thought the principles of Gover nment which were applied to the other celenies ! ihoull be apilied to it. That making what provisions they thought proper respecting the sale of land, and the application of the money derived therefrom, tie was of opinion that the provisions which placed the control in the hands of the Commissioners, and not under the control of the Treasury, should be repealed. He thought if the Crown had anything to do with relieving it from its present embarrassments, it should have a direct control in the appointment of its executive and government ; that the correspondence between the Governor and the S crettry of State— (Hear, ar)—and that with respect to all financial statements and demands—that these questiOns, as in the ca:e of the old col moles, sheen be referred to the Treasury, and that they should express their opinion upon it t 3 the Secretary of State before any steps sere taker,.—(Hear, hear ) He could see no thing but mischief it that anoroaleus kind of govern ment, in which the Crown had no apparent discretion, leaving in fact eery thing to the Commissioners, was permitted to exist. If the House thmight the Govern ment of South Australia should be represented — although that was not his opinion—he should be rea-iy to give his assent to it. He thought the other suggestion the most advisable one—(Hear, hear) l —and he feared that every succeeding year Would on y d in e - . crease the difficulties that would arise if theyawhich parted from all those ancient principles the colonies of that country had flourilielefonoT. he No ble Lord concluded by .Lord STANLEY sai m d oo til i e n to inquire into the gNhoishll3c-L°.orel ?ad . stated very correctly that in the Committee Acts relating to South Australia, and to consider the • • o f money; very little diffe renceprolltety of advancing a summ that e , y, t prevailed on one points what ever step it might be advisable to take, should mlsvoner. , . Mr. EASTHOPE prezentA a petition from litA tering, in Northamptonshire, praying for the Abolition of Church-rates ; also a petition from the Baptists of Burton-on Trent. praying far the abolition of Church rates, old the extinction of Ecclesiastical Cowt=, and for the liberat'on of B,inns. Alio petitions from the Protestait Dissenters of Merienuti:bliire, from the Inlet eadeots of 11.ilidown,! in the county of Sapp, from the inhabitants of sever,:l places in Derby shire and Devonshire, and from several parishes in Manchester, praying for the abolition of Church rates and the extinction of Ecclesiastical Courts. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from the Mayor, corporation, and inhabitants of Birmingham, in favourof the removal of religious tests being put to perscns on ent•ning office. Mr. BARNABY presented a petition from Groome, in Staffordshire, in your of Church Extension. --- Mr. BAINES presented a petition pru3ing for the abolition or Church-rate: , , and of the jurisdiction of Ec clesiastical Courts. _ _ Mr. W. DUNCOMBE presented two petitions from Wiltshire and Yorkshire, against certain provi si.rns in the new Poor-law Bill. Mr. T. DU NCOMBE presented a reCtion from even thousand inhabiter t 3 of Nottingham, complrining •of the illegal conviction of Pros', Wi'Lams, and Jones ; a petition from S. Gordon. of Dublin, praying for the rele is.) of all political offenders, and from an individual residing at Doctors'-common, pray ing the House to adopt the principles of the People's Charter. Mr. HUME resented a retilion from a parish in MiddleScx arrainzt cer:r.in clauses in the Poor-law Bill ; from 1 - .74-ot Bud!cigh in ll.vonshire againtt the County Courts B 11; from Ayr praying for the abolition of Church- retes ; from Bridg north, in favour of Mc lical Reforn, and from Mac (.ll;field, from the Universal Commun'ty Society of RAional Religioniits,.ealled Socialists, praying for in quiry iltl their principles. Mr. MORGAN J. O'CONNELL presented peti tions from Kerry, and ot"ier puts in Ireland, in favour of Lard Morpcth's Irish Registration Bid. Lord notHAm presentee a petition from the Medical Practitioners of Leinster and Leominster, in civour of medical reform. mr. GILLON presented a petition from the Asso ciate Church of Auchtermuclity, praying for the aboli tion of Clurch-rates, and the abolition of the jurisdic tion of the Ecclesiastical Courts ; and a petition from tl:.e United Seccssior. Church of Edinburgh, to the same effect. Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from the Subscribers and Directors of tic Edinburgh School of Arts, praying for the establishment of a Scheel of Design. Sir JAMES GRAHAM presentld a petition from Pcmbzokeshire against the proposed qu.ll4le-stion for Irish Parliamentary voters in Lord Morptei's Mr. KELLY presented a petition from fourteen Chemists aid Druggisti of the Borough of Ipswich against the 13;11 Lefore the House for Medical Reform. ' Mr. BOLTON CLIVE presented a similar pcti- Con from a place in Herefordshire. Tne Henley and Dorchester Road Bill was read a second time. Mr. B. WOOD presented a pt titian from a congre gation of Protestant Dissenters in Devonshire, praying for the abohfon of Church-rates. Mr. R. ALSTON presented a petition against cer tain ,Isuit s in the Poor. law Amendraeat Colonel SIBTHORP presented a petition from a parish in Linco'n in favour of Church Extension. Mr. DENISON presented a petition from Farnham, Surrey, against RlLlAtry in India ; alto a petition from a place in Surrey, praying that the landlords of small tenements should be liable for the payment of rates. Sir J. SEALE presented a petition from Dartmouth, in favour of the removal of the Wcst India mail sta. t'en from Falmouth to that place. Sir J. CAMPBELL preseatel a petition from the Nord Provost and Council of Edinburgh, on the sub ject of the registration of births, marriages, and deaths. Mr. G. WOOD presented a petition from the che mists and druggists against certaia proposed alterations of the law relating to medical practice. Sir GEORGE STAUNTON presented a petition from Portsmouth a.?ainst Church-rates. Mr. 11. STEWART present2d petitions from llad dingtqn and Kincardine apinst Church pitronage in Scotland. Mr. I3ARNABY gave not!ee thet on to-morrow lie woul l movo..for return; of communications between the Post-office and et , rtain coach-proprictorr•. Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that he would take the sense of the House on the appointment of Mr. Viz ird et the Horne.office. Oa the motion of Sir THOMAS FREMAN TLE, leave of absence, was given t. Mr. Thesiger to go the circuit. POQR-LAWS. Col. SIBTHORP 'gave notice that when the New Poor-law Bia next came on for discusslon, h, should movo that it be /Tad a second time that day six months. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that some returns for which he had mcvsd so long ago as the 24 or February, had not been laid on the table of the House. Mr. WAKLEY said that as r.To.rts bad appra-ed in the newspapers stating that there was an inteation to deprive the public of access to the Green-park, he wished to know whether there was any foundation for that statement. 141 r. FOX MAULE replied that the statement was totally incorrect. There was no intention either to prevent the public from using the Park or to alter the hours of admission. The arrangements which had been ramie would continue only until the ground was made solid, and the grass sprun g up. . . SOUTH AUSTRALIA. On the motion of Lo rd J. RUSSELL, the House then went int) Committee on the South Australia Acts. The NOBLE Loan facts rose to move—Tliat it is n the opinion of this C ommittee, that her 21‘11.0i,j0e0stoyl.,bte„ authorised, by an Act of the p resent Session of Parlia n bA l e c u n s( t to , r an t o ltiraa guarantee catendd tfboart apb provision vtihs ic Loan, o nncoobt:im,erx, i a c selsee out of the Con i s for South in! solida:el 'Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Bri tain and Irel ind, for the payment from time to time of such sums of money as may become p a yablea under such guarantee; and proceeded to make obserta•ions in a tone scared), a udible in th e ga ll ery . W e understood the Is hbl e Lord to :sly th at t h e co lony of South A ustralia was founded b y Act of Parliamtnt. Generally speaking, the colonies c f Great Britain were under one or two s r eeies of g ov e r o - Int consisting r r ey re eithercEe ota ut7vdeer As a Local G overnment , rribly, or the general la it pr affairs of the colony were uneer the s anct i on o f t h e Crown, or else they a cre caonies unde r th e i mme di at' control of the arowo, whichuopointed G overnors . were It was ‘ihether a G ove rnment entirely i n t h e h an d s o f the . Commission was no t entirely under the control of the Govzrnment at borne. Ti le prov:smos of the Act of Parliament specitiA that th,,re were to be certain Coin mivioners, and that. they were to he appointed by the Crown ; and by the Bth s,etion of that Act,the whole of the charges and exrnses of the Gavernment of the co l ony were to be defrayed under and by the direction of the Commis ionerr. That Act eat proposed, in the first instance, by certain 111 t ubers of Parl'aehmt and other ger.fernen, and contains likewise provisions respecting emigration and the sole of lands. From the very first there seemed to have been very considerable difficulty in construing tlle Act, and the law officersof- the Crown were reE.rred to for their opinion on cent tin . portions of it. It appe tred from this that the Conirr.isroners were to he c o n sidered responsible for the general expenses of the colony, and that they were also to have the direc tion in their hands. From that time it appeared to •liirn practicable to direct to a useful rurPnse the labours of tl.c colonists. Another difficulty- arose in consegruMee of there being a Governor, and also a resident Clintnissioncefor the sale and grant:of Croivn lands, these. two persons holding different notions of EN iNG EDITION. Le communicated to Parliament with the least possible delay. He (Lord Stanley) had stated his opinion th it the subject was one which could not properly be referred to the consideration of a Committee, but one in which the responsibility of administering relief under its financial embarra;smeats, and of bringing forward a plan for an alteration of the present system of government rested principally upon her Majesty's Government. Upon that subject so strongly did the Committee feel, that although it was true a report had been issued, recommending the advance of certain sums, yet that was accompanied by a resolution placing the whole responsibility of the proceedings in the hands of the Government. That was carried net only by no large majority, but by the casting vote of the Chairman, lie being a Member of her Majesty's Government, and two other members of the Government voting in &your of the recommendation. Ile eetertained the opinion then, and he still adhired to if, that it was net the duty of the Goi ernment to throw such a question loosely before the C ,mmittee, but that coming down to Parliament on their own responsibility, they should state the course they proposed to adopts and . afterwards • t ike the opinion of a Sleet Cemreettee. As to details which could not be conveniently discussed in that House. He remained of the same opinion still, that it was the duty of her Majesty's Goiernment to come down to Parliament not only the proposal to relieve the embarrassments of the Colony, but a'so with a 'definite proposal as to the alteration wale) their experience suggests to them ougl.t to be made. Ile quite coneurie.l with the Noble Lord in his con demnation of the so-called self-supporting principle. He had always been of opinion that that principle was founded upon erroneous caleulitions. - He felt bound to say that the original Act was introduced most hastily, and passed without that deliberation to which it was eetitied. When he had the honour of filing the office of Colonial Secretary, he bad en tered his protest against the plan of govern kg a colony by Commissioners, the responsibility rested then upon no One. He quitted office in May, and almost the next day his successor was pressed leirdly to agree to a Bill which be (Lord Stanley) had t ever seen, set it was alleged thet he had agreed to it, and that -Bill was agreed to. 'rho colony was formed, and al that had taken place was perfectly natural—the bubble huts', and the self-supporting principle was biown to shreds. What was to be exneeted from a colony the expeoditure of which was 140,000/. a yeti-, while its revenue was not more than 20,0001.—a colony where the Government House, upon a sanctioned authority, went built at an experise of 21,0001.—a colony ishe.-e 22,000/. was spent upon making a road to a harbour, which wes badly chosen in the first in stance— a colony where the land which was originally sold at 125., seas afterwards sold at 5001., 1,0001, cress 1,500/. an acre—a colony in which a body of po lice complained of inadequate pay while reef ivine 11. 19. t. a week, they complaining of the espouse they were put to in cleaning their white trowsers and eine lbws—(Thar, beer) —a colony into which had been introducel all the convenieneies and luxuries of a set tled state while it was still in the state of a wilderness? Whet was the result ? Why, that there were not 20Q acres of land under tillage for the suppont of the colony. •Intt 'ad of the first settlers direct' ng• their attention to defraying' the expenses of their own maintenance, by the cultivation of the soil the whole of their subsistence was derived from England or from theecolonies. There was scarcely an acre tiPe 1 by them fur their own support ; and the whole cf the colonists were occaspi rd with specu lations and land jobbing. He as,eated to the psi- c'ple of the propriety of having the land sold applied to purposes of emigration. But they should not fix on a uniform price. He thought that the facility of ontainir g land in the colonies bad the mischievous tendency of leading the population to disperse i over the country, and occupy more land than they c ;old manage. In order to obviate that inconvenience, he thought that they Ehould impose such a price on land as would prevent large tracts from tehig monopolised by parties who could not make upon it a sufficient outlay. Let them not allow any parties to occupy land, Wthout any reference to the general interests of the c immunity, or at an insufficient price. Let it not be g•a t id, for instance, at a pound an acre, white it was • worth thirty or fo'ty shillings. 'That was throwing away the revenues cf the colony in a way which the founeera of the system had never corternplat_d. Every precaution should be taken to direct the attention of the colonists from land-jobbing and land speculations, which were the sources of the difficulties in which many of the colonies were now placed. ( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Ler ! stated his intention, without reference to the recommendation which the Committee may have I mane, and very properly stated his intention to bring for ward his own treasure fur the alteration of the Act in that respect in which he considered it deficient. The Noble Lord here proceeded to show that the manner in r hich the emigration fund was raised gave rise to unlimited credit, and, in conseqeence, to unlim;ted exreediture. The result was unlimi.el bankruptcy. He (Lord Stan ley) pfrfiely concurred in the general principles and views which the Noble Lord laid down for the future manage meet of the Many, but he thought that before the Noble I Lord called on that House to vote loge sums cf money, for that ccleny, without holding out any security yr pre spect of repayment, he ought t embody those views in a I measure which he should submit to tie House, and in which he wool f give the details and provisions of that Act which be said he would introduce. He eii not know I whether it was the Noble L , rd's i iteation, immer: . idtely aft.r that r:soluti , in was-passed, in the ignorance cf the I state of tie colonies in which the maknity of vie f House was, sly:t the Commissioners should go into the market, and raise the lean propme - I. Much as he (Lord Stanley) de:i-ed to see at. end of the difficulties of that colony, i.e did not think that the Noble Lord va; eni I 'el in the present state of informati in on the ruTct to cell upon the House t sanction such a proceeding. He (Lord Star.ley) would be sorry to negative the propositions 1 of the Noble Lord, but he must say that it was not right for Government to call on that House to sanction a grant of money:without giving, in the form of a Bill, the measures which they intend to introduce on the subject. While they I win called on to advance a lOan, they did not know on what principles the colony was bar after to be conducted, 'or what security they were likely to hive for that loan, and how Government proposed to we et any financial difficulties that might an e. Ha would advise the Noble Lord to consent that the Chairman do report progress, and post- . pone the p-esett measure for a week or so, that the House might fairly consider the exigeacice of the colony, and I would not call on the House to pledge itself to vote 210 000/. in the present state of information on the subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he brought forward this question and had it referred to a Committee, because the colony deprecated delay above all thing=, and he con sidered it the duty of Government to bring forward some 1 meaoare on the subject with the I at possible delay. Sir ROBERT I'EEL said that the difficulty might I be settle-I if tie Noble Ler I would state upon the le c lution passing that he would postpone r icing the money. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa.'d, so far as the Government were concerned they it :a no other wish than to meet the desires of the colony', and the patties connectA with it. Lord 110 WICK said that those parties who bad ad vaaced money on bids drawn on the Treasury by the au thorities appointed under the Act of Parleenent, had every reason to le . ieve that these persons wen° atithorked to draw those billy, and under those circumstances the bills must be paid,. but it was important that they should be paid without delay. It seemed to him that I); taking the course suggested by his Nob le F iend opposite rsi would be a considcreble delay. What be (Lord flawicke would suggest was that it was desirable that the Com mittee should now assent to the resolution proposed, and that that reso'ution be reported, and that Government, having the authority from the House, would then be en ablcd at once to seise the boar, and they could after wards have as much time as was rcetfr.cl to meet the immediate difficult'es of the colony. Hoar.) It appeared to him that that would be a course which would most completely met t both what was doe to the interests of Foliate parties in the colony, and what was due to the House and the country, which st as kterested in the ad vance cf the public money. In many of the views of the Noble Lord he fully concurred, aid in others he ceit a sly differed. It appeared to him, however, that they were bound to provide for the immediate and pressir-g financial necessities of the colony, and he should, therefore, support the motion of the Noble Lord. Mr. BUTT said the Noble Lord ( Stanley) bad thought proper to attack the persons who had acted as Comniis timers, and were. inte:e ted in the management of the colohey. Now the had never heard more rash or un founded statements than tae Noble Lord had mode to the Howe. Ile had spoken of tilt it• extravagance in the management of the finances of the colony, and charged them with having attache) to it a fictitious prospenty. He (Mr. Hutt) utterly denied the truth of LI e:e stau ments, and he regretted the Noble Lord had not bad more regard for his station and chase er than to baz .rd such assertions. Having been connected with the Com mis,ioners of South Austraar, he triote i the house would indulge hint for a few momenta, Nellie I .' stated a few facts connected with t hat colony the House. Hitherto it had not cost the Governm ent home iisFenc —(Hear.) It had no share whateveriLera naval cediture of the public funds, and it vcis i n t e contained a nor a military statioe.--( Hear, hcar.) the Noble Lord population of 15,000, inthe conduct ; and olibough it had tr ..i e e ca had stated, exhibited ernvearnyyi'n'idicwaitTom.u'oractivity larger amount of existence ' A a n s d a g. c7- 1 lony only four years, it contaia. stock than New South ft d er it had bet tliety Le Ir. He reed not ytarkaersopatheßrtiitmiseh (icrottoenyliV..l :: e o l u e( w s s e fl h i c h e ' y t h i r f ha e d rri b u , g en t y rs; a u r t i l y . puldie works of ittvorta.n c l • t ir '' % u na gl :ta t a h c e e y s o b l ad ' After four years ofrthe sla en tendnera kuunepnporneb:tehtdeheienr unprecedented c m 4t m rif ffi‘ s es s l o lut ri n, c d. r e s e d e u r e t duty, they yt.'h forey tiiireaic.„ll,eletiniesd.isbHaandeeidi not he could state to the Committee that P c t loes Nrforoble n e o c Lord that,oorfd the e u i t S r since then th e sacs of hind which had been every 'year : n o. had gone back ; emigration had ceased, and progre.s , the capitalists, who had been in th habit of enibarkin:z their money in the Colony, had no longer Speculated ; then came these untoward bills, which alone would 11 EV been sufficient to produce considerable ineary theenien n ee r i The Commissioner s did not raise th e money to off as they shou ld have done, in his Opinion, till the pay Colony had lost its credit, and then they tried when it was too late. Under these circumstances the Noble Lord come dow. t e l o re ns H id o c u ri s t e ,g to tb p a ro se p n o u re rit a y lo it an w , a a s n o ti bt b e e ir ,u r st w e a oul t d b e s sanction the the motion. • . e , Mr. MeKINN ON having been one of the Commission• i e r e a r , w fe b lt o his last ty spokenfo say badfw e w statedcrd r . T keen progressing ti 1 the N o bl e L or d had h Conunisiiuners, and i ll sayingthat t d e h e t H e c: n o r l i c o . v n e ; ‘ : el theirnad- it appeared to him that the Hon. Member bad conveyed a stronger censure vpou the Noble Lord than anathing that had Leen sail en that ride of the Neese. Ile thought that all the evila of the prceeet state of things arose from the appoinement of thee Cemmissioners. As a proof of that lie would menzion that in 1839, under the old sya'em, fifty thousand acre,aeera arc re w acres lofh:ele soldland ia ohatbdnely 7 bean soli at the rate cf a pound pe r e A r n 9 1 dnedr otfie he t C i o E M e L 4,000 had - e m contracted for by a gerafeman in Ireland. na o un f md t b i ' ew e r, hsoiyersht balls eimt Mr. V. SMITH denied the justice of tt •befrigt_ to the new Commisrieners the grievances j orthe a c7 The evils were really owing to the embarrassments,. o w o h n ie Y ,h welt e o c e n l e n a l ll e G y q t:o: l t e c h r e e , tine !lsuseude n , : i (a;bn!ysds Colonel re,hously pur vsP'‘a.haielt:fthearl•baeredts? necessary to treat. He did not think any further delay was advisable, and the Noble Lord oppoa;te (Lord Stan ley) had himself, on a former occasion, insisted tbat by postpouing some mereure fer settling the question they would only aggiavate existing evils. Her Majasta'y Go vcrnnierit had been censured for not taking upon them selves the responsibility of relieving the colony from its dlfioulties instead if submittiog them to a Co nmi'tee. The reason why they Lai not done so was that the colony was an anomaleus creation of Parliament itself, and they thought the matter should, there fie e, be referred to Par liament: If the re-payment of this emigration fund would. set t' le colony efie.seht ought to be applied. Persons unite-- q uail -end with the peculiar formation el the c liony had em batted their property, and they would be rtiacci Parlia ment did net interf .re. Notwithstanding the great cm. barrassmcnts of the colony, ye., compared with other colocias, he did net consider that it would be a dear barg tin at that price. The ex penditure sf Western Australia in 1834, was 93,4131. That colony had at that time a population not execedirg 9,000; whilet in South Australia, there was already a populatioe a 15,000. On the whole, therefore, Ibe thought the propects were not very discouraghag. The Right Hon. Gentleman then concluded be reading some extracts from the corrc(pondence of Colonel Torres's, and exploratory of the conduct of the Colonial Secretary Nitta rear.ect to the payment of the Commissioners' salaries. • Sir R. PEEL raid he wished that course to be taken which wool i preaile for the esieenciess of the colonies, end, at the same time, prevent a dditional r expense at a f_ture lima. But was. the proposal made of this kind? His Noble Friend had given no opi ion adverse to the loan, but had merely said that it was the duty of the Hause, when contracting liabilities to provide a loan to nave diitiect inforna'ion on what footing ti e Government of the colony was in future to be placed. We-e they store that 220,0001. was all that would be required ?—(11c - trir heir ) 'rhe iavelved in the Ical was more ex. fensiv'. Suppose the estimate shotald be a fallacious one, creel I they limn tl , eir advance to that sum ; would not the - Noble Lord bring forward a supplemental es iota e, and, on the same principle as the first I )an, cal upon them to cortract a s , .contl ?—t, Hear, bear.) The Hoe. Geatle man infurn.el the House th:-.t C hotel Torrent car the first to denounce the principle en which the colony was foundesl, arid thought the scheme na; a tc tel N iue-. He (Sir Robert Peel) confesse 1 his confi dence in Colonel Torrens's opinion was a good deal when he lir and this end read the Repert of Colonel Ter rens del vared is July 1840, in which he said (p. 11, 4tis Report) the unexera pled proaperity of South Ansiralitabad excited an etivieus sphit of hostility in persons: interestoe i.t prettrocie emigratron to other settlements. But mix the Hoe. G.nt.cman sri-i a new liltt bed broken in upon Colo' el Tcrrcns, and that he thought the experience of this colony should be a warnino. to others not to found a colony on the same prirc7plcs. Now, was it not a reasonable propositen, if a loan were asked under there ercumstarxes, a 4; the principles on which the colony was hereafter to be founded? Distinct information ought to be conveyed to the House in the shape of it Bill on the subject. Two Goveraors had ten: alteldv removed, and was with the Report of the Treasury, a Parliamentarynot g found this for inquiry? Were thee not c onclusive reasons why the Noble Lord should infor'm them of the intention of Govern ment? The tine was core when it was necessary to alter hotly tie territorial eiviaion and the form of the Cons:itutieta They were bound to make provision for the wants cf these 15,000 penile, whe, in embarking their caeitri, could not be supposed to enter into all the naitiutim connector) with the formation of ib" colony. He would sugge.st a course which he thought would reconcile the two objects which they had in view, namely, the deal a to have some essztraace from Government that the colony should, in its f..nura governmeet, be placed upon a better feendation, and, at the same time, Imo: the preishog exigency ( f the case. He propeaed that the quea'i :n of a loan should her postponed for a shert time, but that the Government should, to•morrow or the next day, cr at as early a period as possible Ity upon the table of the flou - se nn esti mate of the rotaences actually incurred, nerd of bills due, for which prevision must he made, and that the Govern ment should come forward and propose to take just so much as required by the exigency —( Hear, boa-.) Even in point of (reel:env it would be unwise to delay the payment of just demands. They would eventually have to pay not only them but the incidental expenses which would have occurri d. Ti.e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. wished to know how the Hon. Baronet proposed to make the advance? Sir ROBERT PEEL said that his propu:iition was to take the bills due and to give the Government the power cf at once wanting a loan. Lord JOHN RUSSELL via that before be addressed hinielf to the prop , s'nion c f the Hoc. ,Baronet he must cx press his surprise at the course which had been taken by the Noble Lorl. H , a had ce t slay thought it right on A subject of this kind that there should be a Committee. The lied r Secretary of State bad stated to the House, • on the pert of the Government, that there were two thirge which w-uld he kept in tier, one, the relief of those persoag who required it, and the ether, to /lace toe Colony under the con. r.. 1 of the Crown. In the Cerna i tee on this subject tht Noble Lord bat propos.ei a reeclution to tlc (fleet, that delay n n d greatly tona; tl ,- ”g t.v. ;TXrei r ce , edit:. e y nt t) not No d ci proposed a coarse which must Ice Ito delay. Had he (Lord John Russell) brought forward a Bit oSt ti.e sub- jt.ct, :he relief m'glit have been retot ded by opposition ow that (the Ministerial) side of the House. With regard to , the proposi' ion just made, he thought that it quite met the exigencies of the case. In whic'e ev r shape the relief was administered, it would be cqnnlly satitf.xtory to the parties. Lord STANLEY rose to explain. He had objected. and did still object to dell', but he did not sec how that was inconsistent with what he had prelim - el, namely, that they should 'be put in possession of the views which her 'Majesty's Gave-nrnent entertained c iA) regard to tile future Governrneet ; of the colony. The Noble Lord should have brought for card hit Bill at the commencement of the session; and be ought not t) have been influenced by the fear of opposition frdm (Our side of the House. It m; fir t his (Lard Stanley's) fault that no all had been laid before l'aelirient, and that the Government had ender , - veured to throw that burden upon the Committee which properly belonged to CAI executive. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER srid, that there never was a case in which Governmeat bad shown less anxiety to throw off responsibility. So far from shrieking, his Noble Friend, when he moved for a Committee heel distinctly stated what. measures the Ge l/erns:lent intended to propose. If they had ccmc to she amuse with a Bill, objections wild doubtless have been made to that c ourse of proseedirg.—( Hear, bear.) Tho Government would then have been accused of taking upon themselves an undue authority. An in stance of that . kind occurred the other dae. '' on the Goren:went propsniag an increase in the navy v p for Samford contended th at the p ro a er course would have expenditure on their ow n re- p oesibiiity, the Hon. Nienibtr been to send it to a Committee.--( Haar, hen'.) On the whole he thought the cosy se tatea by the Noble Lord was most unfair to the Government. Mr. GROTE said he was ore of those who supported la,. l.ia for ti c formation of this colon:, and notwith 'an i;; Ing.:.rY w' at had been said he must await the result of further before. he would be pre aged to say that it dear, heir.) He quq, agreed in the ‘ opinion ‘ t i ro u h r i c eb — L 1 begin expressed that de'ay would in- CielSC the mischief, and tn e tt _Parlieereat would cv ntually be called upon to into fare tc, a much greater extent. The Ileuse must not forget that the quantity of ealitat_ property-2-that there was a vast now in that colony amounted to not liaz Nan 2 1500,00001.000 f njoB(lo.thcr sheep, and 15,000 heal of other cattie, and n.. 31 , obonr colony had the stream ef enterprise and ir' dl ;; a t . l (Haat, fl wed in so rapidly as in that of Sout'l Ausnra. the circuae hear. ) '1 here was nothing extraordinary forward to ask stances under which the colony had ca . Te cx,,:icr. If the aid of the mother country in a Pre • ieg b and s_ p irit ttatt party the question vas divested of .cd in the course of the which he regretted to see dif Pl:itind as t pri,.- crliatity of eintle , ei,eussion, they were • wr.s.tee would recollect that there e"'"din it ' IlictC(rja3 1)11; erawn by Vie Go' truce of were a dLlionource. A vessel vvas about eight on which the upon the ,colonyi 3 "socught, and the vecnstity sail . r i '" ; l a o s ald s° INeroduc ive ultimately Li to l that t that it muchla for an indefinite period stble that there was.no . required, oth th the ey f t ey c' ,* (l' l) Y e n"t knowns eettraenaasistiweallnlyi'asst pion: the k tre pr , sp-ritv el the colony f wou ld ' o — ft , ve tint understood it to be tt nro,..cV .or a ions' g cutest o r of riin,,cLotiven t , e tr a ce s a ie n at d .3n n i: t e i t s me e r l l,li) i cu e ri r i . ot ef parczmenlitiel: .c general a tfi : Pl A it o n t( uCe 4'. 4 ll,:at r t , e t to c h e es s a s 'y a ni r; n . ( Hear, hear.) regret, eat tinn igled with L o s u u a r p i r car tul; st o sa p y i n t i l o ra n t t h h i e s c opinion, iin ttt al e t i t t i u t Noble Friend near him—( t lt- had 14enherichh heard f m w u .F wlaes :C o a ff i n t o c e t 0 .; Li i:y of the Government, there cliff. rcec ueacisity of Parliamentar It ape( arcs to him that l ' el l a l y 'cr * P'' i Li'' p n.—(ll'.a a r' e would be extremely prejudici a l, li s n a t r T e l e e nt C c 05 n 1 m itt cc would racace; that bills to a 'a-g '. emount, %atria had been , dishonoured, were still 1 (r' in the bands of the me:c-aests t whom they bat 1)3-.;eung 7r,0,f rred. If thares bills were let urne d to the colony e l s ,honoured the resu l t w ;e1 Ibe t o paral se its energies—it woul d lead to discs should take le-, and pabsolutely lunge th er e into irr etrievable r uia. It waa, theref we, place.—( Ile reg.e . ..tcd that his N oble Frlend had found it necess:,ry to express any (niaion upon the pro cc e linos of the Commissio tess , or to indulge in any tin e tiled for and unce;esra-y censu re on the sound and ju , 11.,, nece ssary that n o dela y citrus principle of aelf-suppoiting colorise'.—(he r, hear. ) The Nelda Lord appeaie•l fs.rget that the principle which tb, thiltrd Sta•es Cr t started was a selF 7 suppottiag one; a.l ough Colonel Gawler was not prctent subsequet t disaA.?rs of the colony rri ,, ht be defend h i mse lf; ail must admit Vitt it was to his mismr eat'mitted that a largo turn had bean !ail mat ttnoraargcpcemudb*elnietHt,t;'orha, but th.t was a sum allies the Gern. meet wonld ultimately intce nn reason to regret. the did ine think that country would suffer any groat or permanent miss by the luau, hu`..cvsAtlf it did there were few of the Australian colonies that had been acquired at so small an expense. Mr. PARKER said that be had endeavoured to make as fair a Report as he possibly auld for his Right Rea. d's- ,erg I it led to tbell y t he [icier- state , this , f;dent m ot f a st in the Cnity ith 3 465. 301 i ell high 51. ; Y•) )wing river HO' th• Mar' ael's ; cans port .3t, t° A vics , purr irn• (1 th e utta• o Da' isisted i near , Neil' Scot t ' jscr. sogs R o t' Aro• 'hood, erf sc, [ m illet outh, , r 740 t, i t he G a b- TAO ; the ha" in $ , r ics• Shar e stoe' 131 r" },t dear dense sal o „ i dol lebo t (ling . „to., (Or sot 6e 1 the t II: mbif r Per 1 1 5 I ' s '7lB 10 6 ired oe ; uer 110* - pe, ids ;c" cl , gif ill -