The Sun. — London, England, 1828-06-16 00:00:00

-- I tare last year. It was very true that list Session he con • iidered the measure as a temporary one. They had expe ti"rlee of its effects since then, and endeavoured is this hill to avoid the errors of the former. It appeared to him that they had succeeded in avoiding them, at least in a Pau part. He recommended this Bill, because the duty bight be so varied as to amount to an absolute prohibition. "their Lordships did not adopt the _principle on which it Itraess-ded, of a duty varying with the price, where were t hey to go? They who opposed this principle did not s aggeist any other. The great evil of a prohibitory system Wll. that it occasioned corn to tle locked up in warehouses, W hich when the price rose, was suddenly thrown into the market, and thus produced all the evils of sudden fluctua t'llk The great advantage of this Bill was, that while it 'lowed the introduction of small quantities of corn, it r l 'atected the country against an extraordinary influx.— 4-1 1ras clear that it had not excited any thing like hostility oa th e pa r t of the agriculturists, for no petitions were pre linteal against it. He trusted their Lordships would per :lit it t o be read a second time, and not prevent the esta ,liihrnent of that good understanding between the menu 44etutring and agricultural interests which it was likely to PrNituce. Lord INIALMESIIURY explained. Lord REDESDALE said, the late system tended to pro :IQ% speculation, and it was to that his greatest objections He wished the merchants and manufacturers would 4 ttend to this, that what is the produce of the country costs Othing, what is brought in costs s omething. This was a 1 / 1 „, ri of political economy, if he might use the words.-- 1 , the produ c ti on of corn a t home, the capital, land, and fur of the country were employed. That was net the v4B e I.vith the produce of foreign countries. This was the r "goin why they should employ as much as possible their ° W n land. It would be absurd to employ it in the produc tm)4 Of wine or sugar, because the soil was not adapted to th em. The produce of the country was, in fact, the sup- Port of the population, and of every branch of industry. 4 e land was the capital from which every other article was Produced. ,Tlit - 13luke of WELLINGTON said, the tendency of "a Bill was to prevent warehousing, because, as the price WI the. duty rose. There would, therefore, be less temp tation to warehousing than under the former system. In 18 16, under a system of absolute prohibition, or very ll early so, corn came out of bond without the payment of any duty, or a very small duty. Nothing of thatikind could happen now, us speculation in the warehousing of c,rn could not be carried to so great an extent. It seas true, as the Nob)e Lord had observes!, that, under the measure of last Session, the price of oats and barley rose higher in proportion than that acorn. They were, perhaps, Unduly favoured. They were specially protected in that When the present measure came to be well consi dered, it appeared that it would be inexpedient to keep the ?'Otection so high. The Noble Lord (Malmesbury) ob 3"tcd to the mode of taking the averages, as Ireland was 4 °t included. Had this been done, it would have given 'lle to many complaints and inconveniences which it was t hought would not be counterbalanced by any equivalent 411 funtage. The great object of the Bill was to afford a reasonable and sufficient degree of protection, and to avoid 1 : 11 411101 as possible the evil of fluctuation. The quantity jou& into the market last year was inconsiderable.— rFne entered at 225. Sd. and about 140,000 qrs. at 1/. s. 8 4. ; but, on the Ist of May, after these 140,000 qrs. ; 14 E 4 been b r ou g ht out, a larg e quan tity s till rema i ne d . in " warehouses. Their Lordships then divided— Contents—Present Proxies Non-contents—Present l2 Proxies 7-19 Majority -67 The Bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday. Adjourned at Ten o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 13. 4 8 soon as the SPEAKER took the Chair, the Right 4 11 %. T. P. COVRTENAY took the oaths and his seat, ton his re-election after accepting the office of "ee-President of the Board of Trade. Lord G. LENNOX presente d a pe ti t i on f rom t h e S urgeons of Chichester, praying that facilitie., might Afforded to the Study of Anatomy. Mr'. WODEHOUSE presented petitions from Place s : in Caernarvon, praying for the abolition of s livery. Mr. BENETT presented a similar petition from toe inhabitants of Warminster. 0 , 1 %. LOTT presented a p e titi on f rom th e Mer -A7atits, A gr i cu lt ur i sts , an d ot h er i n h a bi tants o f ' 44 toinster, in favour of the circulation of small notes. i Mr. H. SMITH presented a petition from the foniutbitants of Colchester and its vicinity, praying the Abolition of Slavery. 'ir R. VIVIAN presented a petition from the hk e""%bitants of Callington, against any further con- Non to the Catholics. t h Sir R. VIVIAN also presented a petition from t parsie place, praying for a tax o n th e importation f oreign wool. OE B4 ' H. PARNELL moved for a return of copies Shrewsbury memor i a l s f rom t h e C omm i ss i oners o f t h e and Holyhead R oa d s , relative t o th e es t a blishment h of th e steam -p ac k ets from th e l atter r'''e to Dublin. Leolouel WILSON presented a petition from the iZehant s an d i n h a bi tants o f Whi t b y , i n f avour o f cirenlation of small notes. 41% LIDDELL presented a petition from the Iron tl 4 t ens and Colliers of Nottingham and Derby in tour of the issue .of Small Notes. Lord ALTHORP said, that owing to the late- N I 4 1 of the Session he felt it necessary to postpone, ktil next year, the further progress of the Freeholders' 4gistration Bill, and therefore moved, that the Bill c ommitted this day three months.—Agreed to. ih L ord W. POULETT presented a petition from t i i , inhabitants of Ch ester -l e -S treet, i n favour o f t h e t ettlation of Small Notes. Also a similar petition ° ln the inhabitants of South Shields. Sir E. KNATCHBULL present e d a pet i t i on t. 51 : the inhabitants of Lenham, in Kent, praying f! ) a Protecting duty on Wool. Also a petition A . 14 the inhabitants of the sante town, prayin z for Loather 'protection against the importation of ~P e ign Wool. 1,, 41 r. Alderman WAITHMAN presented a petition h i ' " 14 , the inhabitants of Smithfield, praying that the Net might not be removed from its present site. 4,iit It . WILSON said that the butchers them •.v . . , e t ,„ . _ea had complained that the market was not large - 0;h: , •. ••- • , ' ••', ‘ , ..4t C. BUARELL said, that a market for t 44 was march wanted at the West end of the 11 4 0, - as much for the convenien ce of the , 41- l tants, as for the safety of the public : if a ma rket 0 thus established, at'aiii West end, it would li ii ' e n the necessity, of having cattle driven through to atrae.s, , 'the great terror and peril of women tuilthen and to the detriment of the meat. I‘, t 7t- Alderman WAITHMAN always felt that it Pi t l i ,", ecessary the market should be enlarged.—The ii° 4 *as then ordered to lie on the table. "*k P . P. LEWIS presented a petition from Wen ,', I f iirist the. Ale-house Licensing Bill. ‘ l it‘ t , l ' M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from k„,..' e astle-upon-Tyne, praying for the Abolition of r el l. t ® 4 4 1 r LIVE STE RN presented three similar petitions . harking and Wethersby. 'IIt ak : .O .'GRANT presented a petition f ro m the k o " l l tatits of Ross, praying for a Tax an Foreign 4• Stiii , !•PERGUSSON said, that the greater portion likit' rental of Scotland was paid from the flee ce , ir t ,:ill he thought the landed interest were not de li, 9 f a tax on . the importation of Foreign Wool. liy',,, l P. KENNEDY thought that the opinion was t Dai tc r neatis so general as he supposed, and it was Pre g . , t e 41."h'for the Hon. Gentleman to speak as if re ,',t.'nk . the whole.of the landed interest. .eII . GUSSON explained. 1.4 4 t • : • :KatitELL was surprised that the Mi 4ibies gave n o ex pl anat i on o f t h eir i ntent i ons on the Ititi et li.ttla wool trade. .He expe c t e d a moderate N ii ! ) . 4 Foreign Wool. 4 , I4 : I ARING said, that it would be much better ,t• - •!--=-!...iLT . e cifia motion upon it, an d th us ca ll t . 'illi - POkniffi'ie - 'Rouse - fairly to the subject, n n 'an thns:lgtriAlee-:a discussion upon a peti ,, 1. When a d uty was propose d to b e placed on 1,4t4‘: material, t h ose w h o p ro p ose d i t s h ou ld state top_ b e th at called fur such a duty, and then it ti °e . sho wn t h at the wool grower was not con "g his interest when he asked for a protecting duty. i They should also say what duty it was that they re quired, instead of asking indefinitely for a duty. Mr. BENETT said, that the duty required now was that which they had formerly possessed, during which possession it did not do any harm to the country. The fact was, that when the price of wool was reduced, a reduction took place also in the exportation, and landed estates in the West of Eng land had fallen in value at least 20 or 30 per cent. Mr. C. GRANT did not think the members of the late Government were to blame i;‘)r not bringing the subject before the House. For himself, he was ready to discuss the subject whenever it should be brought on. The Hon. Member then presented a petition from the woollen manufacturers of Galla shiels against a duty upon the importation of foreign wool; and also a pbtition from Southampton praying that foreign flour might be allowed to be manufac tured into biscuit for ships' use. ' SMITHFIELD MARKET. Mr. GORDON moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of Smithfield Market, and to report their observations thereon to the House. Mr. Alderman WOOD objected to the appoint ment of a Committee at so late a period of the Session, as it was utterly impossible that the la , bolus of the Committee could be productive of any benefit; but if the Honourable Member would postpone his motion until next session, it should have his (Mr. Ald. W.'s) support, and he should do all in his power to afford facilities to the Committee. He thought that the appointment of a Committee at this period would unsettle the minds of persons having property in the neighbourhood of the market. He defended the Corporation of London against the attacks which were contained in the petition resented on a former night, and said that the Cor poration had made several attempts to remove the Smithfield market; but all their efforts were de feated by majorities of that House, by which the Bills brought into Parliament by the Corporation of London were thrown out. Since the Bill last brought in by the Corporation, the market had been enlarged one-fifth. He moved as an amendment, that the consideration of the subject should be postponed to next session. Mr. BENETT opposed the amendment. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said the petitions presented against Smithfield market,and upon which was founded the present motion, were got up by a party with a solicitor at their head, wholly ignorant of the real state of the market, or of the trade carried on there, and whose only wish in doing away with this market was to promote a job which they had concoct ed, for erecting buildings in lieu of this market. He denied the truth of the complaints contained in that pe tition, and wished to call the attention of the House to the fact, that those petitioners did not attempt to point out any remedy for the supposed evil. He contended, that neither in Paris, or any other city in Europe, were slaughter-houses better conducted than in the neighbourhood of Smithfield market. The Corporation of London were most anxious to do every thing in their power to accommodate the public, and hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Gordon) would let the subject lie over until next Session, and if he came forward then with any reasonable plan, it would meet with no opposi tion from those connected with the City of London. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that after the candid admission made by the Hon. Alderman, lie thoHght the Hon. Alderman might waive his objection to the appointment of a Committee. For his own part, he (Mr. Peel) was favourable to laying a foundation for the inquiry by the appointment of a Committee this Session. Mr. R. GORDON disclaimed all intention o 1 throwing an imputation on the Corporation of Lon don. All that he (Mr. G.) asked for was a Com mittee of inquiry. Mr. Alderman ATKINS recommended the post ponement of the inquiry until the next Session. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON resisted the mo- tion on two grounds—first, that there was not time for inquiry during the present Session ; and, secondly, that the statements put forth were unfounded, he thought the subject should be allowed to lie over until next year. The Gallery was then cleared for a division; but it was understood that the House did not divide, and that the motion for a Committee was agreed to. pppiira have bet el Lord lid ice ought ie ratio y, that io taxatioo duce. no MO fr i le woo l " so ow° the Col' and the erity wiot of corn' ch politic but with' tell tbt i. The x in • thii I sod "- to atil t traPe 9 a Lo!, g) ree Trad d •the thin es svb icli nit/ maw f these t°, ise s roula toefo glr : , came, ''- weep the ntry, but -(Hear.) rnself; c' t eb), bad 1 produ" 'hick thi iug) bad had bees dial OP: le Whit tV ilati.d arnuoity• uport t ,ti by the nobl e use bat! vio. o of their Ilture f pr . oh , ; exis t ; ° ,ted her W il l 1. " h in 3. 11 , ;it till} e . til eSp mild 1,0 J be i a l eurre u ,Id pour lace tlje ec aritY• ie card . The fitly beeo [lost .oteetto from all ately re e trade: ,hippiog ute our gists Was D Should lee: the rhich he t no di'" o f the e Noble thiA that the 'nigh' 3over n ' I P! . ' l' . Legoll4' MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS, A Message was brought from the Lords to state that their Lordships had agreed to the Covent-garden Market Improvement Bill. RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS. Mr. Secretary PEEL brought in a Bill for the more easy recovery of Small Debts, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next, and to be printed. BANK NOTES (SCOTLAND AND IRELAND) BILL. The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER, in moving - the order of the day for the second reading of the Bank Notes (Scotland and Ireland) Bill, observed, that he had communicated with some Hon. Gentlemen opposed to this measure, and that an arrangement was made, in which he hoped the HOuse would concur, that the discussion on the Bill should be taken upon bringing up the report, and that the Bill should now be rea d a secon d ti me without entering into the discussion. Mr. PORTMAN wished to enter his protest against the Bill, and against the principle which his Majesty's Government sanctioned by the suppression of the Small Note circulation. Me thought the measure would be injurious to the landowners, the traders, and all classes of persons. Sir JAMES GRAHAM willingly acquiesced in the arrangement entered into to postpone the dis cussion until the bringing up of the report. He might state, however, that his objection to the principle of the measure remained unabated. Mr. HUME said, it was his intention on this oc casion to have stated his objections to the principle of the Bill, and he meant in the Committee to pro pose a clause obliging every issuer of notes periodi cally to return to the Treasury an account of the number of notes issued by him. In fact, the clause was the same as that which he (Mr. Hume) pro posed in 1826. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered o be committed on Monday next. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply. Colonel DAVIES said, that before the House Went into a Committee, he had a resolution to move by way of instruction to, the Committee, to' the effect, " that it is expedient to consider the revenue of the country and the expenditure of the army, with a view of reducing this branch of the servic e as low as it was in 1823, or as it could be brought consistent with the public security." In moving this resolution be should trouble the House with a few words. The Army Esti mates were now b e fore th e Committee, and it was und erstood that the Finance Com mittee would not report on this branch of the expenditure this Session. He bad the greatest respect for the Mem bers of that Committee, individually and collectively, but he could not set out of view t h at there was not a single Member of that Committee connected with the three great branches of the public service. With respect to the Army who had the Committee examined? There were the Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston, the Adjutant-General, and the Q ua rter -Master-General. If the Committee were desirous of receiving information as to the expediency o f keeping up a large force, there were no person s more lik e l y to aff or d th e m all the information they could desire on that point than those they examined ; but if the object was re. duction, there were no witnesses whose evidence was less likely to lead to that result. He did not blame the Finance Committee. They very properly commenced by examining persons of high ranl, and he knew it was difficult to find persons not in of who were disposed to offer themselves. He (Colonel Davies) believed that no evidence on the state of the army, which' an officer could give before a Finance Committee, would make any difference with the Duke of Wellington, but this was the feeling that pre vailed and prevented persons front offering themselves. Without going much into detail he would beg the House for a moment to consider what the means of the country were. His golden era was in 1823 ; he did not go so fill. back 89 1792 ; 1823 was a year of peace, but the peace of Europe was then threatened by the lawless aggression com mitted by France in her invasion of Spain. In 1823 the gross income arising from taxation, leasing out of the ac- count all the trickery between the Bank of England and the Government, which only tended to confuse and swell the amount on paper, was 61,300,000/. This was the in come in 1823, but in 1827 this income fell to 58,417,7281.; and supposing, for argument, that the revenue for the pre sent year, will be the same as that for the last year. there is a decrease in the revenue since 1823 of 2,883,272/. If an individual was encumbered with debt, and in stead of diminishing, it was increasing, whilst the income was diminishing, what would be thought of that individual's affairs, and yet that was precisely the case with the country ? He would now state the gra dual increase which had taken place in our military forc e , since 1823, and the gradual increase in the charge of maintaining that force. In 1323, our military force con sisted of 69,144 men, and the charge for that force was 2,561,000/. In 1824, the number of men was 76,700, and the charge 2,731,000/. In *1825, the number of men was 86,893, and the charge 3,062,000/. In 1826, the number of men was 87,240, and the charge 3,157,000/. ; and in 1827, the number of men was 86,808, and the charge 3,159,000/. This year he took it for granted that the number of men and the charge would be about the same as last year. Thus they were going on year after year, increasing rapidly in their career of expellee. But this was not all, the troops in India had in creased from 19,800 to 25,000. It Might be said those troops were not an expellee to this country, but he believed he was warranted in saying that our finances in India were not in a very satisfactory state. The total expenditure of this country for the army, the navy, and miscellaneous services was now 17,815,0001., to which he did not add the ex penditure of money for public works, which was 1,283,000/. The whole expenditure in round numbers, therefore, was 19,000,0001., whilst in 1823, the whole expenditure was only 16,800,0001., so that there was an increase between the expenditure of the present year and that of 1823 of 2,228,000/., to which, if they added the decrease of the revenue,-which was 2,287,100/., the country was worse off this year than it was in 1823, by a sum of 5,116,000/. Now, he asked, was it possible to go on in this way ? He believed that, in the situation of the country, no new taxes could be laid on, and unless new taxes were im posed, or a reduction took place in the public ex pences, it was clear that the country could not go on. He did not call for the reduction of those establish ments on which the honour and security of the country depended. He only referred to 1823, when a Ministry, not famed for economy, did not think of proposing ths mine military establishments which it was now proposed to keep up. He thought arrangements might be made with respect to our Colonial garrisons, which would prevent the ex pence and loss occasioned by the constant recalling of troops. By the present arrangement 6,000 or 7,000 men were always at sea, and were of no use. If a garrison or a thousand men were to be relieved, the relief had a voy age to take, perhaps of some months ; those who were re lieved were then the same time returning, and a large body of men were thus constantly kept going and coming. He only proposed an extension of the system' now in existence. With respect to the regiments in India, if it was a punish ment for them to remain there, it was a punishment they would enter into themselves. There was another point to which he wished to direct the attention of the House— he meant the system of depot companies, which was a great injury to discipline, and a system very injurious in its ef fects ; 13,000 officers and men were rendered ineffective by this system. He believed the Noble Duke wished to make every practicable reduction, but he should be assisted by Parliament. As the Duke of Wellington had vanquished the enemies of his country in the field, he would do that country a still greater benefit by restoring it to prosperity, by a reduction of its expenditure. The lion. Member concluded by moving the resolution. Sir HENRY HARDINGE hoped the Hon. Member (Col. Davies) would not think it disrespectful if he ab at Lined from making any reply to his observations until the House went into Committee. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN supported the resolution. Mr. MONCK observed, that in no despotic state was there a dead weight so large as that of this country. Mr. HUME wished to knew what occasion there was for keeping up this year an army of 90,000 infantry ? lie could account for it on no other ground than that his Ma jesty's Government were fond of large armies, and the pa tronage they threw into their hands. Including the navy, the artillery, the volunteers, the militia, staff, the yeo manry, and the constabulary force of Ireland, we had nearly 150,000 men iu arms. He was glad the Govern ment had not precipitated the country into a war, and as he hoped they did not mean to dLiio; what use could they have for such a force as this? He feared this country was going on as the Noblesse of France before the French Revolution. He was not opposed to a standing army upon principle.— It might at one time have been contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, but now he was sure it was an integral and an economical point of our Constitution. He was always averse to changes in the Ministry, and had Mr. Canning lived the Estimates would have been very different this year, for he knew tkat he had given orders for the reduction of the Estimates to the extent of one million and a half. The moment he was gone, however, his plans were changed, and the reduction no longer thought of. But he might as well speak to the winds as to that House. The Gallant Member opposite, the Secre tary at War (Sir H. Hardinge), he hoped would effect the same reductions in the army which he had effected in the Ordnance. He gave him credit for what he did there, but he did not do half enough. He was quite sure that the three establishments might be reduced from 16 millions to 12, allowing five millions for the dead weight. If the military gentlemen in civil office would but divest them selves of Nee idea of Waterloo and the Ist of June, and the navy the same, nod -.ot think the salvation of the country depended upon :raving the services in a state fit for imme diate action, all would go on well. We should remove taxation, reduce our military establishment, and until then we never could make any progress in improvement, wherefore he should support the motion of his Honourab)e Friend. The Hou. Gentleman concluded by saying that the House could not be of a different opinion, and after asking pardon for having trespassed so long, said he would not go into all the details, which would occupy too much time. Mr. W. SMITH should abandon his duty to the country if he did not bear his testimony to that part of the resolution which went to a reduction of the expenditure of the country. One of his reasons for supporting it was, dust when details were alluded to, there was no describing the advantage which official persons had. It was impos sible for him to ascertain, whether in a particular instance an item of 5,500/. should he better than 6,7001., but this he was sure of that the country could not bear her ex pences which from year to year increased instead of dimi: nishing the burden of debt also continuing, as it appeared from the accounts submitted that the utmost amount of re ductiou which had taken place .from 1815 up to the last two years, only came to 2,700,0001. It made but little difference even if it were 5,000,000/., because if in thir teen years of peace the improvement were not in a much greater ratio, there could be no greater absurdity than the idea of ever discharging the National Debt. With respect to the comparison made between cur present state, and that of Fr:lnce in 1789, he did not believe that our condi tion would 'leaa to revolution, but he thought it must to bankruptcy. The Amendment was then put and negatived without a division, and on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. BRIGHT rose to tr.oVe an instruction to the Com mittee, when he was informed by the Speaker that no in struction could be moved to a Committee of Supply. Mr. BRIGHT then said, he was sorry he was in error, but the question be wished to propound, was one- of consi derable importance. His object was, that there should be a smr.ll sum of money placed at the disposal of philosophi cal persons, for the purpose of investigating the natural productions of a part of our Colonies. Expeditions had lately been sent out under Captain Parry and others, and the country had borne their expences; in the last reign, voyages of discovery had been carried on in the same way, and a great deal of good had been effected. The West India Islands were the Colonies which he wished to have examined, as nothing of the kind had taken place there for near 100 years, wherefore he would wish to Lave a small sum placed at the disposal of the Royal S oc i ety, to send out persons there to investigate their natural productions. The whole of South America had been visited for this pur pose, and it was incumbent on this country to look to the natural advantages of her own Colonies. His notion was that 1,000/, should be given this year, and as much next, and then if the Colonies did not proceed, they would, if advantage were to accrue from the investigation, have no excuse for not proceeding. An Hon.. MEMBER asked whether an instruction could not he moved, when The SPEAKER said the lion. Member should be aware that au instruction never could be moved to a Committee of Supply, and that nothing could be brought on in that Comtnittee of which notice had not been given in detail, by the estimate laid before the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as the subject could not be alluded to in the''Cotrunittf;e, the House would perhaps pardon him for making an observa tion. That was the first time he had ever heard of there hung any deficiency of information with respect to the West Ind;es, as there were few portions of his Majesty\ dominions respecting which there were more minute details, wherefore he would not recommend any grant for the pur pose stated by the Hon. Member. The question was then put, the Speaker left the Chair, and the House went into Committee. ARMY ESTIMATES. Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that about three months ago his Noble Friend Lord Palmerston had moved the vote for the forces for the year, for the purpose of passing the Mutiny Bill, and obtained asum on account to the amount of 2,000,000!., leaving the future amount in the discre tion of the House, as if there had been no vote, and every Member at liberty to take any course that seemed proper to him. His Hon. and Gallant Friend (Colonel Davies) had objected to the amount ; but his Gallant Friend, as well as himself, must be aware, that there was very considerable difficulty in limiting by any precise rule the amount which ought to be voted, taking into consideration ourcolonial po licy, the preservation of tranquillity in Europe, as well as the state of the population at home. The Gallant Officer ob jected, first, that the numbers were too great, and wished us to return to those of 1822 ; but it should be recollected that in the Colonial force, where there were six regiments additional, that was nothing but a transfer from the army extraordinaries into the present estimate, wherefore there was in point of fact no real addition at all. Another point which would show that the preseut amount was not greater than that of 1822, was ft be seen by looking at the esti mates with respect to non-effectives, the number of whom would be reduced by the process of heightening the stan dard from five feet six to five feet seven inches, in conse quence of which there would be a greater difficulty in re cruiting, and that would cause a diminution in the propor tion of 80,000!. to 110,000!. the latter being the expense of the whole 5,000 men. As to the Colonial Corps, al though his Hon. and Gallant Friend objected to the present system, lie surely could not intend that the Colonies were to be perpetually garrisoned by them, for if that course were proceeded further in it would destroy the energy and character of the army, and he himself was sure that his Gallant Friend would not like to keep hie brother officers in the exile which such a system would inflict on them. The 60th regiment was for many years a Colonial corps of this description, a condemned regiment, and in consequence except for the sake of patronage, it seldom happened that any of the bettor description of officers would be induced to go into it. If you were to deprive the army of ambition, its national character would be destroyed, as they might re collect was the case fourteen or fifteen years ago with re spect to the Foot and Bcdy Guards, the latter of which were very deficient as to the character of the officers. The Life Guards were merely considered as pageantry, and sta tionary, and the consequence was what he had stated.— From that he should say that any corps left stationary in the manner proposed would lose its character, and he be lieved that the destruction of the army must be the con sequence if the Colonial Corps were thus increased. On the third point the Depot Companies, which his Gal lant Friend had stated to be most useless, he should without meaning the least discourtesy, absolutely deny his assertion. He would, on the contrary, assume that there could not be a better system for the annual supply of a re giment abroad, say for a period of ten years, than this, for, on the return of a soldier after his term, instead of pensioning him off, he could be sent to a depot, where he would he able to have the benefit of his native air, and do European duties. So too with the officers, who, instead of unlimited leave of absence for a year and a half, or two years, might be sent to the depots in the room of those who took their places, by which means the battalions would be rendered effective. It was also to be recollected that when battalions returned from abroad, they were enabled to remain only four years at home, and the present system enabled them, by falling back on this aid, to reform themselves with greater speed, wherefore ho differed from his Hon. and Gallant Friend on all his points, more espe cially that of the Depot Companies. He would then in a very cursory manner go through the estimates, which stated its number, organization, and distribution. The total number was 60,719, which, deducting the Officers, left the rank and file 77,719—(here the lion. and Gal lant Officer proceeded with extreme rapidity to state the distribution of the army, so that we could not accu rately catch his statement)—leaving twenty-nine battalions in Great Britain. He bad thus calculated on 74• regi ments on foreign service, and those were barely sufficient for the ten years' service abroad, it being considered that of these seven were to be relieved every three years. That would show that the .home establishment was kept at its lowest possible standard. A considerable reduction had taken place, such as that in retired officers, which caused a saving of 6,5004, and various others had been effected, amounting in the whole to 140,000!., which did not ap pear in the Estimate. He would not then go into the items, but merely would state that there was an increase in the number of in-pensioners to the number of 399, the expense of whom was 123,000!. Ne concluded by moving, " That it is the opinion of the Committee that a sum not exceeding 1,210,694/. 15s. sd. begranted to complete the sums for defraying the expenses of the land forces in Great Britain and Ireland and abroad, exclusive of the forces in the East Indies." Oa the question being put by the Chairman, Colonel DAVIES said, that if the Colonial Corps were kept up, it would not happen that a regiment after serving in the East Indies could only remain four years at home, and asked if such a regiment was quartered all that time at home, would it be considered a stigma ? One battalion of the 60th was always a condemned regiment, to which all the bad characters of the army were sent, but if 30 or 40,000 men were permanently kept up, no such stigma could apply to them. With respect to the Life Guards, when he entered the army their officers certainly were not of the highest tone in society, but when they were sent abroad they behaved as well as any other corps, and so would the militia if welt officered. The West. India negro regiments also fought well. As a nucleus in case of war he thought the depot companies entailed great expellee— but when persons went to this extent, they abandoned the vantage ground we possessed from our insular situations, for as long as we possessed the controul of the sea, there was no fear that any of our colonies could be invaded without our being able to have a force to prevent it. Sir H HARDINGE explained. _ _ Mr. HUME said, if any instance were wanted in oppo sition to the Right Him. Gentleman's position, it would be found in the existence and condition of the Native troops in India, who never left the Colony. He looked to eco nomy, which could be best practised by having the troops stationary, and wheu it was seen that there were 71 batta . lions abro.td, that must be manifest. The army in 1822 was 69,000, while at present it was 86,000, and he asked what necessity could exist for this increase of 17,000. As long as the house allowed such power to Ministers, there would never be a reduction. In the Mauritius and New foundland there were huudreds of troops kept, when a very few troops would answer every purpose. The Gallant Officer had said there were in Ireland 23,000 men, whence 10,000 men might be withdrawn if Government acted as they ought. He should like to know why they had more Life and Horse Guards now than formerly. Formerly, the. e used only to be 700 or 800 men of them, but now we had 1,300. Of Foot Guards we used to have 3,700, but now we had s,7oo.—(Hear, hear.) But the fact was, all the duties were now overdone. He understood that at Windsor, during the late King's reign, it guard of one hun dred men did all the duty, but now there was a whole re giment,—(A. laugh.) Of Household troops, we used to hare 10,000, but now they amounted to 14,000. We m ade a • great fuss, and took great credit to ourselves for discharging a few clerks, who cost 80/. or 901. a year; b u t we kept thousands of men here, who, with their horses, cost from 1001. to 1501. each, The Noble Lord, formerly at the !lead of the War Department, had given evidence in favour of the manner in which the small battalions of 400 or 500 men each were increased to 700 or 800 each, and • credit was taken for the change; but now it appeared that we were returning to the old plan of small hattitlious,— We had fifty-one depots of 500 men each, where 650 offi cers were employed in drilling the men to be sent ro• the regiments abroad, He did not see why the enormous ex pense to which this put us should not be reduced. Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that the Hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that these depots were ad ditional expense. The fact was, that font' companies of a regiment now remained at home, whilst the rest went abroad. Those that remained at home supplied those on the foreign station witli fresh men, and thus kept up the effective force of the regiment during the ten years it was abroad. All the additional expense incurred by keeping these companies at home as a depot was Vs, a day for each battalion. And these battalions, it must be remembered, p e rformed a d u t y, which if they did not perform others r e u ro st r re engaged to de. Mr. MIME said that the raising of the small battalions into large ones, or the decreasing the large to small, must be bad, yet credit was taken for both. Lord P ALMERSTON said, the Hon. Member was mistaken in supposing the battalions reduced in the man ner he had stated. Each regiment consisted of 740 men, and not of 400, from which the increase was made : and the same number of officers served for the 740 men, as in 1792 served for the 400. (Hear.) It was ad's which was, the great saving by the arrangement. He hid lately compared the total expense of two regiments of foot guards, and two of the line, in the course of the last year, and found that the former one came only to 7s. per year per man more than the latter.- (Hear, bear.) Colonel TRENCH thought he was bound in justice to observe, that the system of the War Department reflected equal credit on those who had gone out, and those who were in. —(Hear, and laughter.)—He should not have trespassed on the time of the Committee, but that he was auxious to make a sho.t .1., . ,t: i - apposition to that of the Hon. Member for Al , m,l , en. t:. , was doubly anxious to make this statement, becaus e it was due to the memory of an illustrious individual, now no more, under whose su perintendence it had arrived at its present improved condi tion. He requested the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) to do him the honour to follow him while he read this statement, andjudge if it were accurate. He would say in all sin cerity to the Hon. Member—. Si quid novisti rectius istis Candide imperti—si non, his utere mecum." FIRST CASE. Cavalry in 1822 k, R. and F., 5916 men, exclusive of Life Guards, Ruse Guards, and India, and 5916 men, R. and F., formed on the system of 1792,w0u1d make 33 regiments, and cost £ 469,6.52 5916 R. and F., as formed in 1822, cost Saving by better arrangement X 39,000 SECOND CASE. Infantry of the Line are R. and F, in 1822, 49,510. 48,510 R. and F., on the plan of 1792 furm 120 regi ments, and cost X2,`3,252 But they do cost in 1822 1,990,000 Balance in favour of economyof 1822 £ 313,252 THIRD CASE. Comparison, including pay and allowance, of the gross amount of Troops. 48,000 men in 1792 cost (vide Journals) Add for increase in 5014 years Total cost of 48,000 at 1822 at rate of 1792 £1,877,359 PROPORTION. As 48,000 men : 1,877,3594 : : 68,000 men : : 2,659,000/.X2,6.59,000 13ut by the estimate 68,000 men cost only Balance in favour of economy of 1822 £ 413,000 Deduct forage paid by Commissariat in 1822 400,000 Remains balance £ 31:I,008 FOURTH CASE On l‘fr. Hume's own data, though unfavourable, 48,000 men in 1792 (including every thing) cost the whole establishment ..£2,331,140 Difference of pay and allowance one half 48,000 men at raie of 1792 would in 1822 cost —£3,196,723 As 48,000 men 3,490,9231. : 68,000 men • • ADMITTED DIFFERENCE OF PROPORTION BE TWEEN EFFECTIVE AND NON-EFFECTIVE FORCE. (A) 1792 as 500,0004. : 2,000,0004 14 1822 as 2,000,0004 8,(}00,0001,8,(}00,0001, 500,000 (B) Items not in existence . in 1792 [892. Cost of 68,000, at rate of 1:94 Difference of value of money at 15 per cent 13613,000 Real cost of 68,000. at rate of 1792 6,356,000 Amount of estimate 6,103,000 Balance in favour of economy 1922 553,C410 Deduct forage as above :1,000,000 Real balance £ 453,000 (B) Royal Military College-- ......... .X 11,052 Royal Naval Asylum 26,149 Pay of General Officers Foreign Half-pay 114,870 £318,396 He begged to observe, that in this statement he had admit ted all the arguments that could be urged against it, though he had the authority of an Hon. Member opposite for say ing that value of money had varied during these periods from 25 to 40 per cent.---(Cries of ►► No.")—He had only taken it at 15 per cent. Sir FRANCIS BLAKE wished to ask, in the event of the conciliating spirit failing to tranquillise Ireland, how lie could provide troops for the Colonies without increasing the present establishment ? Mr. HUME wished the establishment to be reduced to that of 1822. On the item of 136,0001, for the pay of General and staff Officers serving in the United Kingdom and foreign Stations, Mr. HUME stated that this item had been considerably reduced by the late Duke of York. Colonel TRENCH explained. The item was then voted. On the item of 109,993/. Se. 9d. to defray the expenses of the several Public Departments for 1928, Mr. HUME complained of the amount of this Estimate. Sir H. HARDINGE said that within the last nine years, the number of clerks in the War-offiee had been re duced by one-half. The sum of 175,614/. was then voted for hospital con tingencies. On the item of 66,2121. Se. for defraying the expenses of the volunteer corps, Mr. HUME complained of the extravagant expense which this corps brought on the country. Mr. Y. PEEL said, that the reduction of the estimate for the volunteer corps was two-thirds, compared with what it was last year. Mr. HUME said, that the Volunteer Yeomanry Cavalry, since the . year 1817, had cost the country 1,312,6521., which would have been saved if the advice given in 1817 and 1818 had been followed. After a few wordy from Sir J. BRYDGES in defence of the Yeomanry Cavalry, the resolution was agreed to. A grant of 32,4714 .I.ls. 7d. for.the maintenance of four troops of Dragoons, and twenty companies of Foot, kept up for the Recruiting Service of the East India Company, was agreed to. ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE. A grant of 12,191/. Iss. Bd. was then proposed to defray the expenses of the Royal Military College for the ensuing year. Mr. 111311 E said that ho thought this a most useless piece of expense. We had paid in the last eleven years, for the education of 540 young gentlemen who had been admitted into the army from this College, no less a sum than 232,4371., being 425/. for each cadet admitted into the army. Sir A. HOPE wished that the Hen. Member for Aber deen had the candour of a Member of the Finance Com mittee, who, in all the reductions he had voted for, had yet borne testimony to the excellent management of this College. The lion. Member did not now, as he usually did, propose to diminish the vote, but poisoned the mind of the House by his statements, before the evidence adduced in favour of that establishment, came before them. In 1792, the army had no education whatever, and all that a subaltern officer learnt, was the tiring a platoon or the saluting a general officer on field days. At the laeginning of the last war we were actually obliged to apply to fo reign powers for assistance in organizing our army, before it could begin its operations in Flanders. We had.now a General Officer in our service who was a Captain in the Austrian army when be came to assist us in that organisa tion. Now, however, we had 106 staff officers who had been regularly educated at this College, and of the number there were three Quarter Master-Generals of large armies. Be sides this, 76 had passed their examinations and obtained certificates, which made one hundred and eighty-two persons who were now with our army in different parts of the world, qualified to take any duty that might be confided to them. But, besides, there had been 2,050 officers, more or less, educated in the College, who had since entered the army. The Finance Committee of 1817 referred the fate of this College to the decisiou of the Commander-in-Chief, who modelled it as it was now found. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen put himself up as the man who was to abridge the expenses of the country.—(Hear, hear.)--But the other night when the House was discussing the vote to the Professors of Oxford, the lion. Member hoped that the House would grant something to the London College. - -- (Hear, hear, hear.)-,--io that give the Pion. Member his favourite child--(laughter)--and he hail .ne objection to lavish motley upon it, whilst he was willing to destroy the military establishments of the country.—(Hear, hear.) • Mr.' HUME said, that the mauner in which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had addressed himself to him, called upon him to make a few observations.—(Near, hear, hear.) —The Gallant Officer had laid that poison had fallen from bin:, tint was a statement of the truth poison ? (Clteers)— It might be poison to the ears of the Gallant Officer.— (Cheers.)—Was his statement of the expeuces of the Col lege for the last eleven years neh/ed ? He did no t say any thing against the system ,;,f e d uca ti on t h ere. --(Hear, hear.). —The reasonin of the Gallant Officer was not all appli cable to tLe subject. He said that somebody in the Finance Committee had spoken in favour of the College, but be (Mr. Home) had said nothing derogatory of it. He de nied both the garbling and the r a lison attributed to him.— (Hear.)—ln 1792 the Hon. Member had said we had no education for our Officers in the army. He (Mr. H.) had never cleuied the expediency of the officers being educated ; what he objected to was, the country paying for the edu cation. As to the Committee of 1811, it remained for the House to con s id er w h e th er t h e e xpense ought not to b e reduced in proportion to the wants of the service, or be borne by the partie s . With respect to the London College, when he spok e of a vote for it, the Hon. and G a ll an t Member could not hare been present, or he must ha ve. seen that it was a joke spoken ironically.—(Laughter.)-- Did the Hon. and Gallant Member suppose that he (Mr. Hume) knew se little of the men to whom he bad t o ad dress himself for the money as to imagine that th e y wou ld should be the ve r i es t f oo l--(L ou d cries of hear)-.—that a e give one . farthiug for the furtherance of any lib era l o bj ect. to think of it even . H e was sur prised‘fficer could have been so gu ll e d as to Ch r) eLs t . th i e l — a t Gallant ever suppose lie (Mr. Home) thought such an application would be listened to for a moment.—(Loud laughter.) Sir A. HOPE said, that lie was indeed in a humili ating situation, to find himself gulled by the Hon. Mem ber for Montrose.—(Loud laughter, and cries of" hear.") Mr. HOB HOUSF. said, that the course pursued by the Gallaut Officer, was something new.—(Hear, hear.) — There were Gallant Officers near him (Mr. H.) as gallant ~... as the Hon. Member himself, from whom he had never heard such language or any complaint of the consitutionia mode in which Hon. Members expressed their dissatisfac tion at what they considered extravagance. Hon. Mem bers were not to be taunted in this way about gullibility, or its being a disgrace to be gulled by this or that Member, —(Cheers. )—.He must be excused for saying so, but thin was language not to be borne.—(Cheers.)—H e was not angry for himself, for had the language been addressed to him he should not have spoken. With respect to the men tion which his Noble Friend made of the London Univer sity, it was certainly in a joke, and yet the Hon. and Gallant Member tried to raise a cry against him for it. He trusted the Hon. and Gallant General would think this said in good part. Sir A. HOPE certainly did take what the Hon. Member had said in perfectly good part, as respected the Hon. Member for Westminster, for he bad had no intention of dis pleasing him. With regard to the foolish thing about gulling, he was sorry, for his part, he had committed a breach of the rules of the House. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose to protest against the doctrine laid down by the Gallant Officer, that they were not to discuss any thing till they had the Report of the Fi nance Couunittee. He would not say a word with respect to the temper displayed, as the Gallant Officer had already sufficiently apologised.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") Sir A. HOPE had followed what he understood to be the decision of the lionse, namely, that they should not speak of curtailments in the Estimates till the Report of the Finance Committee was before them. Aster a few words from the CmANciaLon of the Ex.. CHIC:IMM and Mr. BARING, The vote was agreed to ; the Chairman reported pro gress, and the Report was ordered to be received on Alon day. SALE OF GAME BILL. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee oa the Sale of Game Bill, Mr. S. WORTLEY said he felt assured the fending of the House was, that some alteration of the law was neces sary ; moreover, the proposed change had received the sanction of the other House of Legislature. The Hon. Member then entered into an explanation of the present state of the laws and the proposed changes, but as be spoke from under the gallery, and is a low tone of voice, it was impossible to understand him, Sir J. BRYDGES opposed the Bill. Sir J. SHELLEY should be committing an act little short of political cowardice if he were to discontinue his opposition to the principle of the Bill--coavinced that it would not diminish poaching. The Hon. Baronet then deprecated the species of sport called battu, in the collection and preservation of genie, in which the greater portion of the crime of poaching had its origin. As it was possible-, however, that the Bill might produce some good, he should not oppose it. Sir H. VIVIAN condemned the practice of hoarding up game for hattus. Mr. C. WOOD —Although he did net quite appro% e of the qualifications suggested in the present Bill, thought himself bound to support this measure. Lord W. PAULETT, 13tIr. COLPORNt, Mr. F. LEWIS, and Mr. Secretary PEEL, concurred in supporting the principle of the Bill. Lord Mottritru, Mr. G. LAMB, and Mr. %NETT, like wise supported the principle of the Bill, and the House finally resolved itself into a Committee ; Mr. F. Lnwts, its the Chair. Mr. S. WORTLEY stated that it was not his intention to do any thing snore on the present occasion than to pro pose a few verbal amendments, and to introduce one or two clauses in the Committee, to which he was perfectly con fident no opposition would be made. The amendments were then agreed to, the Report was brought up and read, and ordered to be taken into fulfiller consideration on Monday next. •• ~► fe* . USURY LAWS. Mr. P. THOMPSON unwed the . second reading of the Usury Laws Amendment' Bill: • • • Sir It. WILSON wished to know if the Hun. MeioLer 'wished to proceed further. Mr. P. THOMPSON only Wi s h e d to proceed one stage in the Bill. He wished to take the second reading for Tuesday neht.—Agreed to. Mr. DAWSON moved that the other Orders of the Day be now read. • Lord NUGEN'f proposed that the Registration of Free holders' Bill should be read a second time. Sir R. WILSON objected to the second reading of de Bill after one o'clock. The motion of Lord Nugent was then withdrawn. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Two o'Clock. `; SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE. LIVERPOOL. THURSDAY, Juxr 12.—High water, 11 min. past 11. Wind N. W.—Arrived the Grace, Davies, from Demerara , with sugar and runs ; Franklin, Pierce, from New Orleans and New Pert Ral, with cotton; Charles. Dudne, from St. John's, N.B. with timber. CLSA MED OLITW A ROMP, Mitchell, for Que bec ; Sarah, Ruston, for Calais; Heart of Oak, Stone, fi4- Newfouudland and Labrador; Thomas Battereby, Yopp, for Pietou; Carolina Emilie, Black, for Stettin; Perais, Davy, for Gibraltar; Pillau, Sewerte, for Pillau. Telegraph Office. Passed Holyhead, inward bound, Nu. 244, Isaac Hicks, from Mobile, American ship, at 7 a.m. Wind at Holy head, W.N.W,, light breeze. At 10 a.m., No. 6 and No. 11 pilot boats of Point Lynas, and 1 pilot boat west of the floating light. Passed Point Lynes, inward bound, No. 244, Isaac Hicks, American ship, at 2 15 p.m. The vessels that sailed this day were west of the floating light a four p.m. On Saturday next will appear, THE BRITISH POLITICAL GAZETTE. The First Number of this Publi cation (tie Editors of which pledge themselves to the Nation to prosecute the commutation of Tythes to some legal and permanent enactment) contains the first part of a reply to " Lord GRENVILLE'S Essay on the supposed Advantages of the Sinking Fund." In size of paper it is similar to that Old Established 'Weekly Journal " The Literary Gazette."—To behad of all Newsmen and Book sellers, and at the several Post-offices in the country. Price Teopence, postage free.—Published by Wit,ttam Joy, Bookseller, 66, St. Paul's Church-yard. The last Number of the Gazette of Health (published on the let inst.) contains, among other medical intelligence, some interesting observations on the correc tive and curative effects of the mineral water of Great Malvern on scrofula, pulmonary consumption, and dis eases] joints, by Surgeon Annisox ; an easy and effectual mode of curing corns and bunions, by Dr. BROWN; and of burns• and scalds, by Dr. Want); an account of new remedies for the shaking palsy, for rheumatism, tic do loureux, St. Vitus's dance, loss of vision, inflammation of the eyes, thrush, croup, &c.; effectual means ofprornotin g the growth of th e h a i r ; rece i pt f or ma ki ng th e roya l ha ban blacking ; and ex p osure o f th e a d u lteration o f d rugs; and a very valuable essay on the corporeal and ment a l ma nagentent of infants, and.the duties of mothers, &c. by the celebrated Dr. Dawn's, .of -Philadelphia. The Editors of this popular Work have announced a reprint of all the back numbers, so that complete copies of each Volume may be , obtained of any bookseller. increased nearly as rapidly with N in ew th h e a bis ve t n tb . l h 4 s years, as any of the manufacturing villages in the west country. There are fishermen alive who recollect when there were only six boats belonging to tits pu ce , and there are now about two hundred. The o te x f i e v us ß ' great increase in the trade and population has of course caused a tu great HA rliz THE in h arlndEßreEnts.R.lSAcofttremrateh.e ar rival of the body of G11%1.114%11 at the United Hospital, on Wednesday night, all the surgeons and pupils belonging to the establishment amembled as early as four o'clock on the following morning, when the dissection commenced, and from which they only desisted long enough to partake of slight breakfast. By two o'clock in the afternoon they had dissected as far as the abdomen. The body was theta removed frosty the dissecting room to a large upper apart- ' ment, where all the medical gentlemen of Bath were ad mitted, and the senior surgeon of the hospital, Mr. Noe /lAN, began the demonstration on the muscles of the abdo men, which was extremely interesting, and lasted about three qoarters of an hour. Mr. SoneN, the next surgeon The in eminence,' then -demOnitrated on th e ax ill ary vessels, which engaged his audience, about 60 i n number, till half wpaesrteforueerucneeiidd at four e'cloa Frid a y morn i ng these labours head of the mur d erer was guyed on . Thursday-night, land a plaister cast of it taken. The 'oss o f the-hair produced a great change in the appearance. GILLIIAIf, judging even from his present appearance, was a veey , handeoraelnan, haviisg fine regular features, with' a high forehead. He had very soft brown hair, that curled in natural ringlets all over the bead. The person is tall and very muscular. On Saturday Mr. NORMAN pro ceeded with the next division of his labours, viz, the lungs. The brain, it is understood, will not be dissected, because it would spoil the skeleton, which is to be pre served in the hospita),v-iiaghThrold. iz;