The Sun. — London, England, 1819-02-26 00:00:00

r gr. La le froo l i : a is that betiot P"rs Viredric ) : ling the- nl' i"; er •- t giec' tech — r def " "eT:tig nVeStr ners for the aecon il rioted. r. f di' er 0 cotilflittge „ad, b i 4 Fccei"'' B R OCi' ari tlyti t to with; ing r e ! isz ivil 10 1. 0 1 1 jolt , DL' that one tb: , li celV e ocorneo Coiin' I) allg' Jr. c .) a Is.ee stir 01. , A vcoo enitio° e „,ll ti e bot be tO 60 0, f a r to " lc o !it ' oirt . . ( "hte his..„Roydiligbness to meet the extraiardi ii,arY e xpeneei i ncident to the Offics—thalttey wctild f ee s t h at the sum w hi c h was fixed in I'Bl2 , on an I"l"t . . be two the amount of th e expences. asumust the erm more than was strictlyprop er , and House ought to allow, considering - 8 th e g r eaf, c onst i tutional importance of the office, ,fl.ti Ro of the drat 4 ies which were now imp ose d on hear 4 ,yal Hi ghness the Duke of York.—(Hear, , hear !) • 2s t _ A __ l r t e . . D . gramma said, it was with unaffected . d , iffis , 7 ;1 1 : e n H o t i i : s a e t a h t e rb o i l s rered himself to the attent ion o f tittle, 'Wien be was aware tutee t . must be so many persons of rank and coosidera . • nesirous of stating their sentiments on this Thost important i question. He cou ld n O t h e l p t hi n k ng - , that notwithst an di ng the vote to which the Housebad come the other niebt, upon a question ',Conne cted with t h e present subjscr, that they could 1 ) 0 1 be induced' Il e not to agree t o th e pr esent mot i on , fiat could but think that many ot those who v oted against the ameodment of his Right II ", Friend, bad f e l t great d ou b t as to the point of which was involved in the decision. Or if ihdeed the law on the subject was so clear and Precise, that it was reduced to the meaning of 12°te e clause of a s t a tute—was so plain that LI H oclause requir e d a sort -tit pc rverse in genu i t y t o tits elute it, then i t was very surprising that the Noble 4 4, ord opposite should have had recourse to th a t )nost extraordinary 'language by which he en deavoured to intimidate the House, and to per 'ttade them, that if they disagreed from' his coo i„Bll:tlethin of it, th e y wou ld cover themselves with Nor could he onderS'and in, that case ti rY the Hot,. Meinbers for Oxford (Mr. Peel) t 7 )t dd have th oug h t it necessary to adopt a strain c n t so notch' calcolated to convince the U n d er -- " I ' in ding of the House as to seduce them by an all Pe al to thei r P ass i onS. B ut whatever doubts i ltl it i ght be entertained .by others, he was quite sure at the Royal Duke wh o was i mp li cate d i n t hi s was• quite satisfisd that there 7is no : ra g in Point of l aw to prevent rite Privy Purse rj rcit .'"L•heing ffic to.bear the expeoces incident to x t e important oe of Custos Personee of the i 9g• if t hi s was not the feeling of, the Royal ti %„: t4 ' ., what could be thought of the Mt ssage ch t uI. broughtthe Hotise ? It • 4( . een OWtl _ i"ld be as it hi s R oya l Highness had said t ' 44 them :- ‘4 I warn you not ru commit a rob -61; or if you do commit it, I shall cot be your - But he could n o t t a k e that Mrs ' toil ° in any such sense. Th e on ly f a ir construe " to he put uponst w a s, that it proceeded from hectovietioo, on the mind of his Royal Highness, l h t rife expenses could lawfully be charged on the Purse ; and in that view the Message 11 4 1- t bs construed meaning —.“ am aware is i t 4 ; t Y"o have a right to charge the suns upon the '''Y Purs e ; but, as a matter of delicacy, I wish Ra s k(' not to consider me as persbually implicated, s ~, not to allow your decision to be influenced by ff any thing but th e mere d ut i es o f t h e 0 . „ ce. ," Some Members, how e v er , b a d ta k en sel. lrent view of the subject, and argued it h v r er Y different grounds. The Hon. Mein aQr,'" Oxford had thought it necessary to take a e tr „' extensive view of all the Acts of Parliament i n ° ;''''eted with the subject,--and after making a 11, , r ' ufse ntimentaljourney—(Laughter)----sthroug!; Statutes, dr , ;e3:;i upon eacit, is it it 'g that the preamble of the Act the tl;s ' l "tls in questiOn was first vowed, was one . of ia ' ti "tost elegant and affecting compos't . ons "' But be was-tar . irons. thulk -4g "g"ge. • d 'affect.. tk:"l'dt it WilS not an interesting an ; i Teetarle to see large sums of money voted to r 'tt(H. ~"Yal Family—to see a people still lab ou ri ng tis t the , b ur d ens o f a most expensive war—op t44-4,ed with enormous taxes, carrying their hard IT 4s to th e f oot o f t h e Th rone, as a proof ot ta (i , t ; "lait y and at tach Meta . Blit it was too ln~alto find • that th ose mun ificent proofs of P:,;tY which had been given by th e p eo pl e i n '"P"rous times, should be turned into an argit .s„, pose tavniir of such a vote as was now pro s . tli at ( ; ' (Sr that it should be urged on the ground ' t was necessary to enable..a to perform ili cr in , () st sacr e d of all ditties to an aged and af ar, . e `' lather. It it was agreed to on the grounds asZ-11kil it was pressed on the House, the.pie knl''' "1' the Act should be That whereas it t tit4 lik ,c 4 .e'd Almighty God to visit his. Majesty fQtrlle" sever e i n di spos i t i on ; and whereas on tteti," occasions, m and under a pr os p erous state o f .`" the t un4 nces, Parliament had voted l a r ge sus to lal Famil y, i n test i mony of their loyalty tio4(!achutent ; and whereas the people were I)sto' t he time Of peace, labouri ng un d er t h e ,: e ' Of heavy taxes, w hi ch b ad b een imposed tli t ;;' 4l ntain the w a r ; —i t was t h ere f ore , expe di ent k t he so ul of 10,0001, should be no w gr a nt e d,'' 1'"r1; What were t i re -dtties which th e D u k e o f eh e w as called upon to di scharge ? Was he 11 ;11 i ii . ( Ton to perform a single duty beyond that i sreu estvaetti'yssotet was bound to ren d er un d er suc h Rl,i t 1 ee The only argument worth notice Rtigelt been- advanced favour of the motion,. 13t.,1ti 1 812, wh en t h e d ut i es o f the office of Itta t , w ere regul ate d , a s i m i lar sum had been ti, t ;; to her late Majesty. As to the sum then he could only say, that hp thought his Itillaer;',Huhillnlstellourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) 4d great-honour in opposing it. Yet hteo:t"'e, in spite of that opposition, had agreed e_ that sum, not on general grounds,- but on j6 at I n! of the peculiar circumstances of her Ma- Ive y's situation. it was then considered too, that soid:ere involved iu a great and expensive war, s tld c . t . l was supported by extraordinary exertions, the Y soch an extraordi nary expeuce, that •amoog tstlllllllenSe Slims Which ) was then necess t , itll to, provide f or the public expenditure, the te i fi., °l 10 ,0091, f or her Majesty was a perfect (ler::mere d ust i n the scale. But these consi wertis would not now avail. The exertions recko_t oser----th war was at an end, and the t o w , ", 1 1. 4; was to be paid, Btu the House was of a at the ditties imposed by this office were itineatri,,ilsor constitutional and public, nature. As must'say, it was strauge they bad nevus Drop ose, ,Y thiog about the duties till the vote was itn,tvert."--Sonie particulars of those duties had, Was a been disclosed. It seemed there appear " t ell to attend. Now really it would t i " l l Y tn h i e dt l i t f u t _ i _ t ts Council were necessary, any sa ient, hey Were th e legal, proper, and con- stitutiopal advisers of the Custos.. .rt ap• Peared that on the former occasion the House 61 Conimons had been betrayed' into the measure, which could be supported on no just ground, and of which the coutinuance was not justified by any public reason, this was the time when it should be positively resisted. He was very far from think ing that the question now before the House was involved in that discussed and decided the other night. As to the latter, he agreed with the Noble Lord opposite, that any man who entertained a doubt as to the charging the expellees on the Privy Purse, ought to have voted against the amendment of his Right Hr.-- Friend. , If there was any doubt on that question, it was reason enough ,why the Parliament_ ought not to inter fere. But the question now before them w a s l e ft quite ()pets ; and he did . not feel that he had any right to -anticipate how any Member would vote 'spun it from the vote which he had given onthe other. 'lt was not one .which could . be.repre sented .as a .spoliation..ofthe Privy Purse, ay tenintedby those profligate desperadoes who had so little weight or consideration in the 'country, that they made that attack on principles which would subvert all the rights of property; and this for some_mean and sordid advantage, for that was the way in which itavaS described. He thought the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Protheroe) right when he said that it was unpopular to oppose the grant of so paltry a sum, and that men who wished to gain some popularity at the expenee of public principle, would act best by speaking in favour of such grants. An Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Martin) bad said, that he was sure that if he addressed the mob from the Hustings in Covent Garden, they wools! agree at once to such a grant. But those who maintained the true interest of the Country, without courting the favour, or being swayed by the influence of Crown or mob, must oppose it. It was a trite story now, but.'4l very true one, that the revenue last year had fallen short of the expenditure by foniteen miliions. It 'had been very justly matter of congratulation, that the revenue was now ma terially improved. The most sanguine ex pectations, however, had scarcely gone so far as' to refkon that the ineonte of the country would he less this year than 7,000,0001. behind the expenditure. even supposing our finances were in such.a situation that both ends met, it was to be considered that we were now in the fifth year - of peace—that many most oppressive and capricions taxes, which had been imposed to carry on the war, still continued. The whole country was oppressed by these impolitic imposi tions"; and many of them, such as the ad valorem Stamp Duties, the Legacy Duty, &c., were of such a nature as to cramp the industry of the na tion. In this situation, the House ought to consider well on what grounds they were called upon to vote away any sum of the•public money. It was true the present sum was small, but for 'the sake of principle, a stand must somewhere be made. He could not but think that if his Ma jesty hadloreseen the calamity which had fallen' upon him, and the glory of the country so deaily purchased by .the burthens s on the people, that lie would ,have been . the first to wish that those who had so munificently dealt with him and his family - tinder mote prosperous circumstances, should, above all, be, spared while loaded with the bur- . alens that now opp resse d t h em . A s for t h e grounds nn which the vote had been pressed, lie thought the Noble Lord opposite would have much better consulted the dignity of his charac ter, if he had spared the language used by biin in the last debate on the subject. The House must not,be deceived., It they were to go on piling expellee upon expellee in the time of peace, the consequences must be fatal to the country. It was the ditty of the House of Commons to act with firmness on-this occasion—to sustain their cha racter with the nation—to protect the Royal Fa mily from the extravagances of the present Ad atinistratioo. . Mrs PEEL, as he had been very pointedly al- Inded to by the Hon.-Member who just sat down, begged to be indulged with a vet y few words, ati notice of the Hon. and Learned Gentle Man's extemporaneous ef f usion.—(He.r, and laughter.) —That Hon. Member, however, must recollect that it was not every one who had the advantage of three days to make a reply.—(Laughter.)— The Lion. Gentleman quarrelled with his re ference to the Acts of Parliament on this subject, And had talked of his (Mr. Peel's) making a sort of sentimental journey through the Statute Book. Now, he couldonty - say, that if it was to he called a journey, it was one which he had made in com pany with some of the Hon. Member's Friends, to whom he referred him as having led the way.— (Laughter.)—But it• seemed that even the Hon. Member himself had not thought the journey un pleasant, as be had gone some part of the same Way, and treated the House with a preamble of his own.—(La'ughter, and cheering.) Mr. CRIPPS professed be had, .on a former evening, been unable to see any reason why the 10,0001. a-year should not be taken from the Privy Purse ; and had, therefore, voted with the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney.) What ever popularity such a vote might give ,him, he feared he should lose it by his. - Vote to-night ; forlhe could see no reason why, if the House compelled his Royal Highness to accept the duties dependent on the office otCustos, it 'should not also vote him so moderate a salary as 10,0001. a-year to defray the extraordinary charges to which the office necessarily subjected him. • Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) said be had but one sentence to utter in explanation. He did not, in the few words he had addressed to the Com mittee, mean to say be could persuade the mob to vote for his motion, but that it he addressed from the Hustings the 'people of London—the Nobility,—(laughter) —the Clergy, and the Gen try—not the ragged multitude mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman—he was sure they would agree to the vote. On what principle could the House impose duties, attended with heavy expenses, without granting money to defray them. He Would put it to the Hon. Member himself (Mr. Denman) whether, if among musty parchments— (laughter)—he found any thing which entitled him to a dormant Peerage, and took it for the opinion of one of the Law Officers of the Crown, offering them the remuneration usual in the pro fession, if he should say—."t Don't give me one , farthing—(langhter)—l can't think of taking a f Single sixpence asa compensation for mw labour, (daughter) —would not the Hon. Gentlemen I say—" I insist upon paying that which is justly due for your services to me, and that to which aoy other Member of the Profession would be fairly entitled."—(Laughter,) —This case was quite analogous to that of the Duke of York.— (Laughter.) Mr. BEas•A L regretted to find the name of an illustrionf. Duke, so distinguished for worth and every benevolent feeling, had been unnecessarily repeated in these debates: He admitted the ge ,nerous feeling's of the British public, and its at tachment to the reigning fancily; he, neverthe less, as he considered the House was not by the preceding vote in the CoMmittee restricted from voting . in ttis case as it might determine upon a revision of the case, should, as one of the watch ful guardians of the public purse, consult, not Ilk own feelings, but the interests of. that public he was bound to protect under every eircnrustance'. • Mr. CooPtat said, the duty now imposed upon the House was , not to lay new,burdens on the people,, but to appropriate the sums on the Civil List. Utile same office were continued, he could not see why the salary should be diminished. He understood the vote of the other night to have beets, not whether any Sum should be granted, but admitting that some grant should be made, out of what fund it should be taken. What was the situation of our Monarch ?—aged, afflicted, ani destitute—and in this situation was the Hous e .called upon to stint the comforts becoming his rank and situation ?—(Hear, hear, hear 1) When it was considered that he had reigned more than half a century, this vote was to be consi dered as a tribute of affection from a loyal and grateful people.--(Bear, hear, hear I)—Adverting to the notice of a motion for restoring the 't wo Equerries, be trusted that it worild be agreed to. Mr. GoRDoN spoke shortly, in a low tone, and was scarcely audible in the gallery. He express ed his opinion strongly in favour of the vote,. on account of the importance of the duties of the office. Mr. WlLLrams (a new Member) could not agree with the course pursued on this occasion.— if by any grant of money the comftirts of our King could he increased, he would be the last matt to oppose it ; and he 1:•as sure throughout the whole nation there world he an unaoithous disposition that it should be given. But as it was plain that the comfort and happiness of his Majesty were in no way concerned in this vote, he couliftlot agree to it. He could not approve of the Report of the Select Committee. It was disgusting.to see all the items of the expellees of the Royal gstablishment so much for the kitchen—so notchi for clothes and all this published and distributed through the country. This could only fetal blower the Royal Family in the public' estimat ion. He thought sotne sum ought to be voted on this occasion, but that 10,0001. was too much. In 1812, when the late Mr. l'ereeval first proposed the vote of this sunto s the Queen to meet the expenses of the offices, that great Statesman, than whom 'there was no man more attached to his King artd country, bad 'Or - ight it necessary to apologize for the. Magni (tide of this sow. It the suns was too great for the Queen, it must be too great for rh"e Dirke of York. Looking at the circumstances of the country, he thought 10,0001 too touch ; but ct.nsidering the duties of the office, be thought to give:nothing would be unjust. He would therefore propole that the sum be 50001. The SPEAKER.--" Does the Hon. Member mean to move an an►eni?ment Mr. WkwAms felt himself so totally without influence in the House, that he should hardly vet., tore on any motion; but, if any Member would second it, he should more as.in amendment that the sum, be 5,0001. instead of 10,0001.. This amendnient was seconded, and the ques tion upon it put from the Chair. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY thought be should be • guilty of a gross dereliction of public duty, and a great violation of public honour, it he could agree to the motion. He would not be deterred by any expressions which might be used from any part of the House, from taking that part which be thought proper. lie agreed very_ much in the view taken of this subject by the Hon. Mem ber who had just sat down—and that the arrange. merits of the Windsor Establi?.hment were not ie gulated by a just regarck; to.a principle of econo my. lie thought ten thousand pounds too much. to be granted to defray the expences of the office of Custos Personal, He.conceived the feelings of the country to he such towards. the Duke of York and the Royal Family, that any sun& which', was necessary would be cheerfully granted. •He cer tainly bad a sort of latent .feeling that the sum of 10,0001. was nut now proposefi for the Doke of York solely to defray, the exyences of the office of Custos. Lord EBRINGTON said, though he felt it 4114 possible to add.any thing to the arguments which had been so ably urged against the present ;no tion, yet he was' anxious to enter , his protest against what he conceived to be one of the most wanton demands ever made on the liberality of the House. He was the more desiro►►s of doing so, from its having been urged on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, that those, who had votetl for the amendment the other night were thereby precluded from-voting against this motion. Mi nisters had much to answer tor, on account of the way iu which they had dragged the Duke of Volk before the House on this occasion.' Those who argued on the other side of the House Con-' tended, that the office of CtiStos was one of a high constitutional character, and ought therefore to be expensive. But be maintained that the sum allowed to the Queen was not a fit precedent for thi4 case. On the same principle on which be . opposed the motion he should also oppose the amendment. Mr. S. CocKs thought there %vas no occasion to have dragged forward the Duke of Yoik on this occasion. The office was the only tiling to be considered, and looking at its duties, he thought 10,0001. the least sum that could be granted. Mr. D. W. H ARVEY th oug h t t h e acceptance of any salary was degrading to the office itself. On the same principle he objected to the grant of 50001. Gentlemen on the other side would then come down to the House, and inform them, that in their, zeal for economy they bad applied to every house 09 the Windsor road which posted for one shilling a mile.—(The expressions of im patience here grew general.)—He had one word more to say in conclosion—he always construed coughs into cheers,(A laugh.) Mr. W. WYNN could not ,help remarking on what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last. He had mixed op much extraneous matter with the subject befhte the House. This was. an occasion upon which it was Necessary for them to express their feelings, and to act as be came the Legislature of this Country. It was a question upon which it was quite improper to mix up the services of his Royd Highness. Those ser vices be estimated as highly . as any one ; hut it was nor a fit time, when they were deliberating upon his appointment to the custody of his fa flier's person, to take them into consideration Ile then contended that the same sum could not be required by his Royal Highness the Duke of York, because it was impossible that' he could be called upon to expend it in the execution of the high trust which had been imposed upon him. I3 , it if it were determined that that sum should be given, be would, wish that thenbject of it should be avowed. If it were as a salary, let - that. be named, and the 'necessity for its large amount proved ; brit if.,it were intended as„a gift, it was but fair that it should be asked flour the Honse, as such. It was, he conceived, rather an insult to the feelings of iris Royal nighness to ask for that large payment for a duty, the discharge of which in private life, if only made a source of emolument, would be looked upOn as extranr t• Ginary. • Mr. BATHURsT thought that the House, after creating so high an office as the tiustos of his Majesty's;acicil.persoo, should annex to it a re munei atioo proportioned to its dignity and im portance, especially as nobody could doubt that the expences attendant on it woold.he consider ahle. Considering the ditties attached to the office, and the digoity of the person to be taken care of, the people, he felt persoaded, would not think the sum proposed for his Royal Highness too Lord CAR HAMPTON said, that be would at all titnes feel difficulty in opposing the • grant of Money proposed by Ministers for any branch of the ,Royal Family; but On the . present occasion he must say th a t no cons id erat i on of obloquy should deter him froth opposing that which he conceived ,to he an unprincipled, unfeeling, and auda .cions step. He considered it his duty to resit to the utmost at, attempt made by some persons to pay their CoOrt at the expence Of the people. The Members of the Administration had in the last Session been foiled in their various attempts respecting pecuniary grants to different branches of the linyalarnily. They ought at present to take Care; they had another tt ial, and if they should not succeed, out they would go.—(Laughter.)---- Even if they should be able to carry the question for a grant of 10,0001. a-year to his Royal High ness, he. would not" accept it. if, when the up. pointment of a Clisos had been taken into consi. &ration, they had passed over his Royal High: ne,s, he mig . ht have with good reason felt ois pleased ; but the Royal Duke would, no doubt, feel indignant it tiuy supposed him unwilling to exercise the duties of the office without receiving the' proposed emoloment. To any one who might hold such onworthylangoage to the Royal Duke, he would say, "Do Sod think that I am of so griping a asposi:ion as , to wish for the sacred office in order - to ybtaiu the proposed reward ?"," No ; he (Lord Carhatnnton) felt confident th a t his Royal fligh t i rs S wou ld not be otodone in ge iterouS feeling by a Vienchoian. Perhaps it was the .wish of Ministers Chat' the office of Custos should get into the Red liook i ondremain there for ever. .He thought that their reason in•support . of the proposed giant was like that which bad once been given for voting a sum of money to a Commissioner of Lotteiies in Ireland before any • such office had existed, viz, Let the money be voted, because such an office may at some future time exist.---(A hugh.)—His Lordt.hip concluded bvv' paying a high - compliment to his Royal High ness the Duke of York, as' Cinmander-in-Chief of the Army, amongst whom, 'he, said, every offi cer and soldier loved him, and nobody more than be (Lord Carhantaton) did. ' . , Mr. HART believed the question was, whether the salary ought to be taken from a distressed anti a•n impoverished people, or some mode adopted to save his Royal iliglruess from the disgrace ac companying the grant ? Mr. GRIFFITHS objected to the grant in the present state of the country, the House could not be too cautious. in its application of the public money. The Noble Lord kCastlereagb) bad lately drawn a picture of the prosperity of the country with an'extraordinary magnifying power. That picture, however, upon close inspection, he ; had found to be a mere daub. Colonel Ecusobr supported the grant as long as his venerable, Sovereign lived, but he had no fear that such an expenee would be made per, petual._ Mr. FRE4M.INTLE declared, that in supporting the present grant he felt that he but followed tie general feeling of the country. Were he called before his constituents to explain his . vote, he .would meet the inquiry with satisfaction, coh yinced that such .a remuneration to the highs trust his Royal Highness was called to ekecdte would be freely yielded by the loyalty, liberality, and just ice of the people. Mr. TIERNEY assured the House that he would occupy but a very. small port iota of its The Hon. Genileuran then entered into a very able discussion of the question, in'whicb be be stowed many invectives against •Miuisters for abusing the confidence of the people, And de grading his Royal Highness by the manner of pro.. posing the grant. The situation required nothing more than to attend twice a-week at, Windsor. -!-- A thousand or fifteen 'hundred pounds a-year would be more than sufficient . to meet the ex'-• peaces of travelling there so of even taking into account the exorbitant charge , for post horses.-- Much was said about theacts of liberality his Royal Highness would be called upon to perform, 011,1 part of his Majesty, in • his situeti in of Curos. He knew of no acts of liberality the would he. come incumbent on him in that capacity, more than .those which his known generosity of disposition