The Sun. — London, England, 1867-02-26 00:00:00

bank qualification 25,000 voters. I must here remark, both with reference to the county and borough franchise which depends on the savings-banks, that all these estimates aro made upon the old savings-banks. There is no return yet of the Post-office savings -banks; but of course in time, if that national institution advances and prospers, it will have a very sensible effect upon this matter. Extending, then, to the counties, those four new franchises, we propose to reduce the occupation franchise in counties to £2O. Mr. Gladstone—" Will that also be founded upon rating ?"j It will be founded upon rating. This will add, after all deduc tions, to the occupiers having votes in counties, 82,500. The whole of the increase to the constituency of the coun try, in round numbers, will be 400,000. The house will now permit me to advert to one of the Resolutions not strictly in the order in which it is placed on the paper, but on which it would be more convenient for the general management of this subject that 1 should at once touch ; and that is the Resolution to which an amendment has been given notice of -viz., No. 9—which declares "That it is expedient that provision should be made for the better prevention of bribery and corruption at elections." Sir, I have heard that in dealing with this subject we have only ourselves to blame, because we thoughtlessly, and, perhaps, incautiously, sup ported an hon. baronet, a member of this house, in the last session of Parliament, in a resolution which we must now find inconvenient to us. (An Hon.Member—"Hear, hear.") Sir, 1 can only say to those who have made that observa tion and to the hon. gentleman who cheers it that they are under a very great mistake. (Hear, hear.) After what happened, not only before that resolution was passed, but after what has occurred subsequently and recently in this country, I think that any Ministry, of whatever party it might be formed, would not be doing its duty to its Sove reign and its country if it did not attempt vigorously to grapple with this question of bribery and corruption. (Cheers.) And, Sir, we have given to it our anxious atten tion, and are perfectly prepared to act upon the conclusions at which we have arrived. This is not the occasion upon which it would, I am sure, be agreeable to the house to enter into minute details on such a subject ; but I may, per haps, advert to one or two of the principal conclusions to which we have come, and which we shall recommend the house to adopt in regard to it. In the first place, it is our opinion—and wo hope we may induce the house to agree with that opinion—that after an election, if the decision within two months is challenged either by the candidate who was defeated or by the electors, he or they shall be empowered to serve the returning-officer with their protest; that when that protest has been received the returning-officer shall communicate it to the proper authorities—the clerk at the table, for example, Mr. Speaker, or it may be the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas; and that then these authorities should have the power immediately to autho rise the despatch of two assessors to the spot, to hold their court and conduct their examination at the locality, and there decide upon the question at issue. (Hear, hear.) Of course, these assessors aro not to be sent—that protest is not to be acted upon, unless the persons making it enter into their recognisances to bear the necessary expenses of the investigation. And as we are unwilling in any way to diminish the jurisdiction of this house, or to take its real business from out of its bosom, in case we give an appeal from the decision of the assessors, we propose that it should be given in this way—that the person decided against may make his appeal to this house, and that this house may, if it thinks fit, appoint a Select Committee to investigate the question. ("No, no," murmers, and cries of "Hear, hear.") The decision of the assessors will remain 15 days on the table. If it is not questioned it will be acted upon ; if it is questioned, the person who questions it and makes the appeal must, of course, again enter into his recognis ances to bear the necessary expenses, and it will be open to the house, if it thinks proper, to act upon that appeal. The next conclusion upon this matter which we shall re commend the house to adopt is to declare that, when a candidate has been convicted of bribery, the other candidate whose conduct is proved to have been pure, although he may have been in a minority, shall be returned to this house. Sir, these are two important recommendations, to which, from a desire not to weary the house, I have done very imperfect justice ; because, of course, all these regula tions are very much matters of detail ; but I hope that I have succeeded in conveying to the house the general re sults at which we have arrived. (Cheers.) We believe that their consequences will be very considerable upon the conduct of the constituencies, and also of the members of this house. (An Hon. Member.—" What about the punish ment?) I would rather decline to enter at the present moment into the subject of punishments, and prefer to leave it till this branch of the question is more specially before tho house. (Hear, hear.) I hope, although this is a subject involving very great difficulty, that we may bo able to arrive at certain conditions by which in veterately corrupt boroughs shall after a certain time, and after the fulfilment of those conditions, by their own conduct lose, as a matter of course, the power of re turning members to this house. If the Resolutions are passed, and it should fall to our lot to bring in a bill, we shall be perfectly ready to act on this question of conup tion by introducing clauses to carry these propositions, or propositions of an analogous character, into effect. Bat it will be for the house to decide whether they shall be adopted. I cannot conceal from the house that this a subject which must lead to prolonged controversy, and as it is no doubt their desire that a bill affecting the representation of the people in Parliament should be carried, I will not say with precipitation, but at least without any unnecessary delay, it will be for them to decide whether it is to be dealt with in that or in a separate measure. (Hear, bear.) I can as sure the house that the Government arc prepared to fulfil, not only in the letter, but in the spirit, the engagements which were entered into on this question last session, and to which they themselves were a party. (Hear, hear.) if the house should be of opinion that it would encumber the Franchise and Distribution Bill or the other subjects which must necessarily enter into a measured Parliamentary Re form too much to couple with them this matter, all I can say is that I will personally undertake to bring in a sepa rate bill dealing with it on the very same night, so tho the passing of tho Franchise and Distribution Bill would be disembarrassed of the delay which might otherwise take place. (Hear, hear.) The subject on which I have just treatedleadsme to the consideration of those venal boroughs which have of late so much engaged the painful attention of the country. ft is the opinion of the Government that no delay should occur in enabling the house to decide on the position of these boroughs, and that it is a very rele vant part of the task which, if these resolutions pass, we are prepared to undertake. The boroughs to which I refer aro Great Yarmouth, returning two members; Lancaster, returning two members; Totnes, returning two members; and Reigate, returning one member, to Parliament. The Government have given to this part of the question anxi ous and painful consideration, and they think that it is their duty to recommend the disfranchisement of the whole of those boroughs—(cheers)—and to transfer the seven seats thus rendered vacant to towns which have risen into importance since the passing of tho Reform Bill of 1832. Those sever seats would not, of course, meet all the fair claims to the distinction of being represented in this house which might be urged ; but on that subject, not withstanding the communications which I have had made to me, the Government have been guided by the principles and feelings which are expressed in the 7th and Bth Reso lutions. We have, in fact, in considering the question of distribution, entirely been influenced by the consideration of enfranchisement and not disfranchisement. (Hear, hear.) We are alive to the great difficulty, and even the great danger, of rashly, recklessly, and thoughtlessly interfering with the representative system of a society so old, so com plicated, and now so vast and various as that of theßritish Empire. We are unwilling to disturb any centre of repre sentation, our main consideration beingthat in the revision of our electoral system which must necessarily be periodi cal, however distant from one another the periods;-we should confine ourselves as far as we possibly can to giving representation to those places which ought to be, and are not, represented, duly maintaining at the same time that balance between the various interests in this house which, I believe, the majority of us are anxious to preserve. We have anxiously examined all the claims for representation which can upon any reasonable ground be advanced by the several communities which have risen into importance since 1832, and we have naturally, in coming to a decision upon the subject, been influenced by a triple consideration —in a great degree by population, by the distinctive in terests of that population, and, lastly, by locality. We are desirous, as far as we can, to maintain the distribution of representation ever the country, because we feel that un equal distribution must lead to discontent. We have en deavoured to provide that each distinctive interest in towns should be fairly represented, and the towns which, after the most anxious and careful investigation, we will, if the Resolutions should pass and wo have the opportunity, recommend to Parliament to enfranchise are Hartlepool — (cheers) -Darlin g ton (cheers)— Burnley, Staleybridge, St. Helen's, Dewsbury, Barnsley, and Mid dle,;borough. (Che ers .) I stop at the i next, and the house will, I trust, not ask me to mention its name. (A laugh.) We wish to give a m em b er to what is called the " Black Country." (Hear, h e ar.) I n our own bill of 1859 as well as iu the bill of tho late Gov ernment, a provision of that kind was introduced. To reconcile a rating basis and a mining PoPulatiou is, however, a diffi cu lt tas k . So many and such contradictory representations fr om diff erent localities have; been made to me, and I have been ask e d so anxiously and.) upon such good grounds not to precipitate th e determina tion of the Government on this point, that I am sure the house, always anxious for fair play, will allow me to de scribe the town to which I inn now adverting as one in the Black Country. (A laugh.) The remaining towns which we propose to enfranchise are Croydon, Gravesend, and Torquay. (Cheers.) The house will perceive that the North of England—and that very properly—has a very large share in this appropriation, and we think it extremely desirable that if there are towns of sufficient importance in the South their claims to representation should also be acknow ledged. We look therefore upon the enfranchisement of Croydon, Gravesend, and Torquay as only fair and just. (Hear, hear.) Before I leave the question of boroughs I will mention that it is the intention of the Government, if they should have the opportunity, to recommend to Parliament to divide the Tower Hamlets and give to each division two members. In so doing it will of course be necessary to pro vide that its boundaries should not bo allowed to remain exactly as they wore left by the Act of 1832, but that they should be adapted to the requirements of the present'popu- lation. It seems to usoxtremely desirable that communities so populous and extensive should be made the basis of an increased representation. By these means 14 members will be given to boroughs. I now come toranother part of the important subject of distribution. The house has acknowledged that the counties in England are in adequately represented. No one, I may add, has acknow ledged that to be the case more explicitly than Earl Russell himself. I remember it was from this very place that ho (lid me the honour of stating that in one of his numerous Re form Bills he had given increased representation to the counties in consequence of the remarks which I had offered on the subject. The result, too, of our deliberations year after year, has, I think, convinced the house and the country that it is important the counties should receive a more adequate representation than they now possess. We are about greatly to increase the representation of towns, and we must bearin mind that in doing so we must diminish in a considerable degree the representative power of some of the smaller boroughs, which are generally supposed to furnish an indirect compensation to the counties for their entirely in adequate representation. What we propose, therefore, is that we should take certain counties and divide them, giving in each case a constituency composed, irrespective of the boroughs, of a pure county population, numbering 100,000, to the new - members thus created. The counties to the division of which we mean to ask the assent of the house are North Lancashire, North Lincolnshire, West Kent, East Surrey, Middlesex, South Staffordshire, and South Devon. We shall, if those proposals are adopted, have 14 new members for counties and 14 for boroughs, while the number of seats with which we intend to ask the house to deal is 30. How 28 of these are to be appropriated I have just explained ; the remaining two we would dispose of as follows : —We propose to carry out a scheme which was offered to the consideration of the house in 1859, and which, though the measure in which it was embraced was not passed, re ceived the entire approval of the house. I allude to our proposal to divide South Lancashire, as well as to give a member to Birkenhead. Although that proposal was not then carried into effect, the vacancy created in certain seats two or three years afterwards furnished the house with an opportunity of reconsidering the matter, and so irresistible wore the claims of Birkenhead found to be —those of South Lancashire being also very great —that a compromise was made by giving a member to Birkenhead and an additional member to South Lancashire. We propose that South Lancashire should be divided, and and this will make 29 members. We also propose that the house should recognise the claims of London University. (Hear, hear.) I have nowexplainedthe distribution of seats proposed by Government. Fourteen members are given to boroughs, and 1 earnestly hope and fervently believe that Parliament will never have cause to regret the transference of the franchise to the nese boroughs. Notwithstanding all that has taken place, I believe that the real opinion of this country is opposed to the practice of bribery at elections, and I believe, too, that these communities will repudiate such practices. I expect with confidence that their mem bers, on whatever side they may sit, will add to the honour and utility of this house. (Hear.) There are, according to the list I have read, 15 members given to the counties, and they no doubt must be, considering their constituencies, mea of very great importance. The presumption, there fore, is that they will add to the strength and reputation of the House of Commons. I may remark that in proposing the division of Middlesex we are proposing a plan which will at least give more peculiar representation to Kensing ton, Chelsea, Hammersmith, and the populous districts in those neighbourhoods. Therefore, to the claims both of the west and east of London, which are at present most inadequately or not at all represented, the plan of the Go vernroent will afford some satisfaction. We can only carry this plan into effect by availing ourselves of the sevenseats justly forfeited in the opinion of the whole house and the country, and by appealing to the patriotism and public spirit of some of the smaller boroughs in the country. (Laughter.) The principle of this plan— a principle which I trust will always be adopted in this house - is never wholly to disfranchise; except on account of corruption, and those boroughs, therefore, to which I now allude will still remain Parliamentary boroughs; and we shall still have the pleasure of listening in this house to the hon. mem bers who represent them. I will not trouble the house with the names of these boroughs. (Great laughter and cries of "Name.") Their names are on the table, and when 1 state the principle on which the Government propose to appeal to them to curtail their superfluous representation —(laughter)--every hon. member will then have it in his power to ascertain what boroughs they are. (Cries of " Name !") That is not in the Resolutions, and to the Resolutions I mean strictly to confine myself. All boroughs under a population of 7,000 will be asked, in all courtesy, by the house to spare one of their members. (Laughter.) These are in number 23, which, added to the seven for feited seats, show how the plans of the Government can be carried into effect. It now becomes my duty to call the attention of the house to other important Resolutions, which, if sanctioned by the house will materially affect the ques tion of corruption, because they tend to terminate the ex penditure on a greatscale in county elections. If the house will agree to the three Resolutioni which refer to the re gistration of county voters, to the manuerin which the voters shall be polled, and to the mode by which voters at a distance may record their votes, the Government will introduce a series of provisions in their bill which will, I may say with out exaggeration, entirely put an end to the vast expen diture now incurred in county elections. (Hear, hear.) if you combine, these three Resolutions with the provisions, such as I have already indicated, of our bill against cor ruption, and with the course which we recommend Parlia ment to take in reference to those boroughs whose conduct has recently been under the painful scrutiny of the country, I think you will agree that a great blow will be dealt against bribery and corruption in the election of members to Parliament, which will afford a hope to the country that those evils may possibly in time be entirely suppressed. Therefore, I have groat confidence that the house will pass those Resolutions; and I undertake, on the part of the Government, that if they aro passed we will bring forward a series of praCtical proposals Which will be easy of adoption and beneficial in operation. The regis tration of county voters will then be assimilated to the principle on which the registration of borough voters is placed. The polling places will be increased. I will not say that every parish will be a polling place, because there may be some parishes . with no voters, but we would have polling places so frequent, and polling districts so limited, that county elections might be carried on so economically that it would ba utterly impossible to incur the vast expen diture which even now occurs. If the Resolution with re spect to voting papers be adopted by Parliament, we have reason to believe that that system may be acted on with beneficial effects, and thus there will be an end of the im mense abuses arising out of bringing up voters from an im mense distance at a fabulous cost. I know not that I have omitted noticing any Resolution before the house except the last, on which it is almost unnecessary for me to make any observation, because I have already on a previous occa sion referred to it. I will only say that I have learnt that there exists some misapprehension of the remarks I made with respect to a commission for settling the boundaries of boroughs. I am told that it was understood from what I said that freeholders in boroughs should no longer vote for counties. No such idea ever occurred to my mind. There is not in the bill which I hope to introduce any attempt to disfranchise any voter. We respect the resolution which the house arrived at on a previous occasion, what ever my private opinion may be, and I always expressed it frankly, to the effect that everyman should vote where his qualification is. I am, however, satisfied to submit to the decision of the house, and all I urged on the house was to consider the question of defining the boundaries between boroughs in a just and fair manner. The house will ob serve that on this head we recommend the issue of a Royal Commission. If these Resolutions pass, and we are autho rised to bring in a bill, it is our intention that the Royal Commission should issue immediately, and at once proceed to act, whereas if the Commission were made a Parliamen tary Commission, and if we were bound up with the bill, the Commission could not act until the passing of the bill. I have now fulfilled my task. I told hon. members who who made inquiries since the time when the Resolutions were laid on the table that 1 had taken a note of them, and that at the proper time I would explain to the house the application which the Government recommend should be given to the principles expressed in the Resolutions. 1 trust that the house will candidly consider the observa tions I have made. It will be our duty on the passing of the Resolutions to introduce a bill, and Ithiuk that its pro visions are such as on the whole to satisfy public opinion and the requirements of the cars. It will add something like one-third to the constituency, and cause a considera ble addition to the number of voters belonging to the working classes. I hope, therefore, it will be fairly consi dered that they have resumed their ancient position in the Parliamentary scheme of this country. At any rate, her Majesty's Government have brought forward, I will not call it an honest bill, because that epithet has been used so often of late that it might lead to angry recrimination. (A laugh.) But they have brought forward a sincere bill, which they are prepared to carry. (Cheers.) Moderate it may be in spirit, but essentially practical, and ' which I earnestly hope will be backed by the good feeling of an united people. (Loud cheers.) I move, sir, that you do now leave the chair. (Cheers.) Mr. LOWE rose, and w.ts received with cheers. He said—The right hon. gentleman concluded his speech by telling us that the Government had brought in a bill that would realise very beneficial results. Had that statement been accurate, I would not have troubled the house with a single remark on this occasion. It is just be cause the speech does not conclude with asking leave to bring in a bill, but concludes with a motion asking the house t o go i nto committee on resolutions, which is every different thing, that I feel bound to trespass on the atten tiontu s a o the Chancellor of ts to he c house. (H ear , h ear. ) I am not so presump hoaffnceerar of the Exchequer has laid before nyeriticismoff-ha ndo n the measure us which ; nor have 1 the slightest objection to make to the speech in which an ina li e ; e h n a d s e n intr ot m d u e b e d arc ß aer u rle t i la l yra d e o ann t t , h d in teo k a r nc i t a(l3 n e sl ttyl the e, d u tao t t y tte , : a: tion of the house, ern ve e ry rof a position in which we find ourselves placed with regard to the Government and the constitutions' practice of this assembly in the course we are now urged to adopt. I can imagine that there may be reasons connected with party which may make it difficult for other members, whose opinions would have more weight and from whom these observations would come more properly, to offer them. But being unfortunately, and I hope not for a long time, uncon connected with party—(laughter)—l, at any rate, have the advantage that I can speak out what I think, and say what I believe ought to be sail by some one in this house, but which I am afraid won't be said except by somo outcast like myself. (Latighter and cheers.) I wish to speak with all good humour of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but, in order to explain what I mean, I must do the most un gracious thing—take a little retrospect of his conduct during the last fortnight. This day fortnight he made a speech of two hours and a quarter, in which unlike his speech of to night, of an hour and a quarter, in which he has told us everything, he told us nothing at all. (Hear.) I listened with the utmost attention, but only derived the impression that ho was exceedingly anxious to sharpen as much as possible the difference between town and country, and that he was excessively anxious that the house should understand that the Government bad come to the resolu tion that, come what may of any measure they may intro duce, it was obsolete to think that the Government could go out on a Reform Bill. (Laughter.) As for the rest, I understood nothing—neither why the resolutions were brought in, nor what they were, nor what they were to do. He did not in his first speech even allude to one re solution, which I believe, up to a very recent period, was destined to play a prominent part in these proceedings, that on plurality of votes; nor did he mention voting papers, but allowed us to remain in ignorance for twelve hours, until we saw them in the papers next morning. The effect has been very unfortunate, because an oppor tunity was wasted, and we have spent the last fort night, which ought to have been devoted to considering the plan of the Government, in puzzling our heads to find out what the plan was. And I expect the Government themselves have been engaged iu the same occupation. (Laughter and cheers.) It is impossible that we can to night debate upon aplan we have only just heard. Indeed, I maintain that the plan of the Government is really not before the house. It is like a balloon in the air—we have no contact with it. We are engaged with a set of resolu tions that have no more to do with the plan than Squire Thornhill's three famous postulates, upon which he insisted before ho would argue with Moses Primrose whether the clergy ought to receive tithes. He insisted that Moses Primrose should grant that the whole is greater than a part; that whatever is, is; and that the three angles of a triangle are equal. (Laughter.) The delay is very much to be regretted, because I believe the house is really in earnest in wishing to come to a conclusion on the measure, and it is very much the fault of the right hon gentleman. First we had a speech which told us nothing ; then we had the resolutions, which told us very little more ; and, in the third place, the reason given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the resolutions wore proposed. I could not conceive why. I know why the Indian resolutions, nine years ago, were brought forward--they were the heads of a bill, perfectly precise and accurate ; and when the house agreed to them the Government had only to clothe them in appropriate language. The first said that a Secretary of State should be appointed for India; that to him should be transferred all the powers then held by the Board of Control and by the Court of Directors. 1 call that something like a resolution. (Cheers.) It might have been a clause in an Act of Parliament in itself. If the Government had proceeded iu that way on this occasion— though I run not partial to proceeding by resolution--it would have been captious to object. These are the most empty generalities I over saw. They are abstract propo sitions, which may be said to be either true or false. They only derive their meaning when applied to details, which are withheld. They are abstract ; the thing we have to deal with is concrete. In England it is our plan not to deal with vague general prin ciples that a very philosophical mind may abstract from a number of details, but to look at the circum stances as a whole. In that way, for hundreds of years, we have formed our opinions on matters of legislation. But these resolutions do not imply the measure opened to-night, and would hardly connect us to one of the right hon. gentleman's statements. Resolutions are to exclude and include; but those do not. They prove what is perfectly notorious, that there have been changes in the opinions of the Government during the last fort night. It is notorious, also, that whatever difficulty they have found, they have found no difficulty in making their opinions fit into these resolutions. (Hear, hear.) They are not a framework, but an elastic band. (Laughter.) The right hon. gentleman has proposed: a£6 rating fran chise for boroughs, £2O for counties, and other and col lateral franchises. The first four resolutions do not help us to those propositions at all, but they depend on the four resolutions. They tell nothing, prove nothing, and do no thing, whether we pass them or leave them. Even if they were before us, we could strike them out, and put in the right honourable gentleman's proposition instead. He makes a statement of one set of things, over which state ment the house has no jurisdiction, and then proposes and asks the house to vote upon. another. The right hon. gentleman said on Friday he was going, in pursuance of the practice of Parliament, to explain the intentions of Government, with a view to understanding these resolu tions. I should like to know where he finds such a prac tice of Parliament. When has Parliament— which, with all its faults, is a business-like body—ever hit on such a scheme as this? There is no precedent for such a course ; and I rack my braius in vain to find a reason. We seem to be living under a system of what High Churchmen used to call "development" There were disciplina arcana, sop posed to reside in the Church, by virtue of which reasons could be found in the most convenient manner, when wanted. In the development of this doctrine the right hon. gentleman said, in answer to the noble lord the mem . ber for Huntingdonshire, that he would tell us why he in troduced the measure by resolution. Tho right hon. gen tleman said in effect the Government were firmly resolved, and had made up their minds that, whatever happened, they were not to go out about Parliamentary Reform. And why ? Because both Whigs and Tories had tried their hands and failed conspicuously. Tho right hon. gentle man contended as an irresistible argument that no Govern ment hereafter should be turned out on the matter of Re form, and ho drew a collateral inference, which was equally weighty, and tended to much the same con clusion, that for the same reason no party spirit ought to exist on the question of Reform at all—that Par liament ought to be divested of it, as though it were a thing as easily got rid of as one's clothes. Having ad vanced so far in his argument, he weuta step further. His Parliamentary experience suggested to him that the way Government had been defeated on Reform was by abstract resolutions, which might be proposed by some evil-minded person. So he said, "We have introduced these abstract resolutions to the house, in order that other persons may not move them against us when we bring in a Reform Bill, because if they did they might turn us out." And that was the process of reasoning which led the right hon. gentleman to introduce the resolutions to the house. It was that he might bind over the house to keep the peace. (Laughter.) We 'were to enter into recognisances towards the Government that we would not move any ab stract resolution to torment them; and the bast way which suggested itself to his mind was to take all the abstract resolutions he could poSsibly think of, and put them into these resolutions. (Laughter and cheers.) The right hon. gentleman is a much better tactician than I am, but I doubt whether that is a sound way of proceeding. I have no doubt he has read the fairy tale of the prince of whom it was foretold that he would be killed by some sharp instru ment, in consequence of which the king ordered every instrument to be banished from his dominions ; but not withstanding this his fate was accomplished, and the prince was killed by the sharp point of a spindle. And I think that if the Government is to be turned, out—if the right way to perform that process is through the agency of abstract resolutions—it would not be thirteen or thirty abstract re solutions that would save them, for some ingenious man would be sure to find out something from the recesses of his brain that would effectually accomplish the work. But to go back to the right hon. gentleman's argument.• Why is it an irresistible reason, because Whigs and Tories have alike failed on this qaestion, that the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues should enjoy absolute impu nity ? Why are they to have the mark of Cain set upon them, that nobody may kill them ? (Loud laughter.) I should have thought just the contrary: that where per sons had tried on both sides and failed in an adventure of this kind, it was a very good reason why you should not relax the penalties at' endant upon such an attempt. Because if people with largo majorities have tried these things and did not succeed—if people who aro united in their views have tried these things and (lid not succeed— I do not fee that it is the business of this house to relax those parliamentary safeguards which are such necessary accompaniments of responsible government. If mon un dertake such matters without having the strength, or per haps the union, to carry them through, I think we should leave them to their own discretion. We ought certainly not to discourage them; but, of all things in the world I can fancy nothing more unreasonable than to relax those safeguards in the case of that measure which is of the highest possible importance to us and to our posterity, which ought to be entered upon with the greatest delibe ration, and for securing a proper decision on which we want every assistance that calmness, experience, wisdom, and moderation can give us. I should have argued the matter precisely the contrary. As to divesting ourselves of party spirit, if it is an optional thing, let us got rid of it altogether. The constitution of this country is founded on the principle that party spirit is inherent in the minds of public men; and with true English instinct, instead of saying, "We will assume what is false, that men are not actuated by these motives,"'the wise men who framed our constitution said, " We will take human nature as we find it, and as we cannot eradicate these evils, we will neut ralise them by setting one set of evil principles against another—the party spirit of the Opposition against the party spirit of the Government—and out of the collision of the two something may bo worked out for the good of the country." I think nothing is so undesirable as that these safeguards should be relaxed in this instance. So far from the reasons of the right hon. gentleman carrying conviction to my mind, they did precisely the contrary. We aro bound to adhere to all the safeguards wo have to protect us against ourselves in arriving at a right con clusion in a matter of this kind. Let us look at the con stitutional view of the question. It was the happy ob- THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1867. stinacy of William M. which prevented the members of the Executive Government being excluded from this house ; but they remained on the condition that they should be responsible for their acts just as if they did not sit here—that the duties of members of the Executive Government shculd not be absorbed in their duties as members of Parliament, and that Parliament should not use its power of making and unmaking Governments in order to coerce the liberty of the Executive department. The true principle is, that the Executive Government must continue responsible, and in order to do so they must continue free. What does the right hon. gentleman propose ? With a deal of candid courtesy he beseeches us—in language which I was ashamed to hear addressed to me as a 658th part of the house, and that he should have thought it necessary to address to the house—he says, " If the house will deign to take us into its counsel if it will co-operate with us in this matter, we shall re ceive with cordiality, with deference—nay, even with gratitude—any suggestion it likes to offer. (Laughter.) Say what you like to us, only, for God's sake, leave us our places." (Laughter and cheers.) Well, sir, I think that the supplication of the right hon. gentleman ought not to be granted. This house ought to hold the Govern ment to the responsibility which Governments undertake in regard to all measures, and especially with regard to organic changes of the Constitution. I deprecate the course of going into committee with the understanding that the Government is not responsible for anything it proposes—any member being left to move anything he pleases, without the hand of a party leader to restrain him. It amounts to putting the British Constitution into a kind of alembic, and taking the chance of what comes. (Laugh ter.) I consider it an unwise, dangerous, unconstitutional course. If I have enlarged upon this question, it is not from a spirit of hostility to the Government, or with a wish to get them into trouble, but to point out to the house the dangerous consequences which may ensue to the country ; and I may say this the more independently from the posi tion which I occupy with respect to the Government and the Opposition, between which I stand, very happily, im partial—if you throw the whole question abroad with no body to guide or to be responsible. It puts me in mind of what happened to the children of Israel when they threw all their golden ornaments into the fire, and, as the expres sion is, "there came out of it this calf." (Loud laughter.) I must say here a word for myself and some other members of this house. We were very hard with our strictures upon the right hon. gentleman the member for South Lan cashire last year; and before I allude to that further, will the house allow me to make an apology which is due to the right hon. gentleman ? In a letter which I wrote some time ago to the Times, I stated, being in the country, and trusting too much to my memory, that the right hon. gen tleman made an apology to me in the house for certain things which ho said. I am very sorry to say I was mistaken. Any one referring to page 125 of the right hon. gentleman's speeches will see there was an apology made to me, but on another matter. I misrepresented the right hon. gentle man, and I am sorry for it. (Hear, bear.) We were very hard on the right hon. gentleman last year. We said he treated us with reserve, though his reserve was openness itself compared to the miserable instalments of information dealt out to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Cheers.) We said we must have the whole matter before us, and we stuck to our text. But the right hon. gentleman (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) asks us to vote these Resolutions without having tho Government measure in any way before us, except iu what ho has said to-night, to which the Go vernment is not bound. He has not asked for leave to bring in a bill, and it is perfectly competent for him to come down to-morrow, and say he has changed his mind. (Hear, hear, and no, no.) I beg therefore to press upon the house the extreme inexpediency of going on with these Resolutions. What possible good can result ? Though we vote them all in a' lump, what can we do but disgrace ourselves ? They do not form the basis of a bill, and so far from preserving the Government, they would be a trap for them. I consider that it is the business of the Execu tive Government to lead and advise the house, and it is the business of the house to decide on the acts of the exe cutive. And if the house allows itself to take the initia tive, if it begins measures which the Government ought to begin, it will only take away the responsibility of the Exe cutive Governmeht. It will lower the position of the house in the country, and it will be treading, as it seems to me, in the path which has been fatal to so many legislative as semblies before. In the history of the world never was there known such an assembly, with the power of the Com mons of England, that had the moderation to confine itself to its own legitimate functions, and to abstain from using, or rather abusing, its power to coerce the Executive Go vernment; and when we abandon the safe course of mode ration, wo shall be in a fair way to transform this great legislative instrument into something of the nature of a convention, and of reducing the Government to the posi tion of clerks to take our directions, instead of men who guide and lead us, and form the connecting link between us and the sovereign on the one side, and the great public on the other. Once more, I press upon the house to weigh well the proceeding before they consent to go into com mittee upon these Resolutions. The proceeding is abso lutely useless. I defy any one to suggest any useful pur pose it will answer, but it may drift us no one knows where. I do not wish to take a course hostile to the Go vernment; but whatever may be done by other members, I must say " No" to the motion that you, sir, leave the chair. I was anxious to say one word about myself in reference to this question of Reform. The house is aware that I have taken up this view of Reform—that I considered that the burden of proof is on those who attack existing institutions, and that I was bound to hold by them until something better is shown. I believe that I stand alone in that view, but I have never been favoured with an answer to it. The argument was this way—" How can you say that Reform is not wanted, when I have got a bill of my own in my pocket, which I have prepared upon the subject ?" All I can now say is, that I am not going to weary the House any more by contending for ground which I have endea voured unsuccesfully to sustain, and that I am quite ready to go most heartily and honestly to the considera tion of any bill on reform that is laid before us—(cheers) —with every willingness and disposition to do all I can towards making it an efficient and useful measure. I think the condition that we aro in is exceedingly serious. It was said at the last Reform Bill that • we were within twenty-four hours of revolution. I believe wo have been within fewer hours even than that of household suffrage. (Cheers and laughter.) Now, sir, 1 am not going to argue the question, but I believe a great many hold household suffrage in very considerable dread. It was because I, too, hold it in dread, that I opposed the Uovernment bill of last year; for I believe that what ever point you select between the present franchise and household suffrage will be a very temporary dwelling place indeed. Those, of course, who aro satisfied with household suffrage, or who believe that they find a resting place at £6, to them I have nothing to say ; but those who think otherwise I beg earnestly once more to consider this question. It appears to me that the principle of a fancy franchise is in itself a bad one, because what I understand by a fancy franchise is an arbitrary connection between two things which have no necessary connection with each other. My nodon of the proper view is that we should go a little deeper into the question, and try if we cannot find some better principle than that. It does seem to mo that. if we are to invent new machinery for determining who shall have a share in the government of the country. you ought to consider, not a man's property, or his status, but you ought to consider his relation to that State of which he is to be made a full citizen, and that the principle you should seek should be a principle drawn from the exercise of duties towards the State. I hold that the proper foundation for the franchise should be the performance and discharge of State burdens. (Hear, hear.) It seems to me, when a man is so poor that ho is excused on the ground of poverty from performing any duty or discharging any burden to the State, that such a man, although he is entitled to all the rights of a citizen, is yet not in a condition t entitle him to impose burdens upon others. I think further that it is necessary that a Reform Bill should not attach to any particular kind of property ; in other words, that you should have some principle which would take in tbosa above the line of £lO, as well as those below it. It also seems to mo that there is this serious omission in the proposals of Government—that they take no notice of that most important question of lodgers ; for if universal suffrage finds its way into this country, it will be be through the lodger franchise. The more you lower the franchise, the greater you make the disparity be tween the lodger and the householder; and every man is either a lodger or a householder, unless ho sleeps under an arch of London-bridge. Under such circumstances, the lodgers will agitate, and so you will get gradually down to a very low franchise indeed. How are all these things to bo reconciled ? I think in a very simple manner. If you retain the present franchise, and add all the payers of income-tax, you will go a great way. If you consider the tax too high for the purpose, you must lower it. Look at the advantage you would get from it. You would get the elite of all classes. You would admit a great namber of the woeking classes, certainly the elite of them, for £2 a week is by no means high wages for them ; and, therefore, I believe that, if we were arguing thisquestion in the Republic of Plato, there would be a great deal to be said for that proposition. It does what it professes to do, but no more. It •does not, under the form of asltnittting persons to a voice in the constitution, give them the whole power of the constitution. It admits the elite of the work ing class. A safeguard of the franchise by having a burden attached to it, it follows necessarily that it corrects the tendency to lower, because as you lower the franchise the burden becomes more onerous. It is in the direction of public burdens we should look for an enlarge ment of the franchise, and anxious as the house is for a settlement, I trust there will be nothing like panic or pre cipitation. There was never less excuse for it. The meet ings over the country have l died away, and only loft a few echoes behind them. They have failed to take hold of the mind of the nation. As for the metropolitan demonstra tions, they showed nothing but the vanity and impotence of their authors. (Ministerial cheers.) It is not scarvesand ribbons that will shake the foundations of an ancient monar chy. The country has remained unmoved. The possessors of property are singularly well disposed towards a settle ment of the question. The agitators who go about the coun try preaching manhood suffrage will not be satisfied with anything which we can do. Let us give up this compe tition between the two partiesas to who will bid the lowest in the auction in in which the country is to be knocked down to the one who proposes the swiftest elements for its destruction. Let us 4 bid a long adieu to shams and pre tences ; let us deal more frankly, and call upon the Govern ment to withdraw their Resolutions, bring in a bill, and bring the matter to an issue in the old English fashion. There is no danger in such a course, but there will be enormous danger if every member during the discussion on those propositions is to bo pressed by his constituency, while the press is hounding all on so as to bring . the insti tutions of the country down to the level of democracy. (Ministerial cheers.) Touch the nettle timidly and it will sting you, but grasp it firmly you are unhurt, and can tear it at your leisure. (Cheers.) Mr. BRIGHT—I am sorry the right hen, gentleman has not taken some definite mode pf submitting his propositions to the decision of the house, for I think there never were propositions brought before it so involved in mystery, and probably not a member opposite off the Treasury bench knew what course the Government intended to take with regard to thorn. lion. gentlemen believe beyond question that the principal Minister in this house has led them into a very ludicrous position. It is clear from the speech this day fortnight and the speech to-night how much easier it is to make a short speech and say something, or a long speech and say nothing—to speak for three hours and say nothing, or for one hour and say a good deal. The speech of to-night, if delivered this day fortnight, would have given us an opportunity of fairly passing to the propositions of the Government. Probably up to Saturday last the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues had not decided what they wore to do with their propositions. The right hon. gentleman comes forward with a statement now which puts the Resolutions altogether out of place. (Hoar, hear.) Tho law officers of the Government can put the propositions un folded by him into a bill in correct language which can be laid on the table this day week. I agree, therefore, with the right hon. member for Calne, to to go into a discussion on the Resolutions would be merely a waste of time. (Hear. hear.) But to go into the discussion of them in the manner we wore invited to do this day fortnight would tend to throw the question of Reform into a parliamentary chaos, and lower the Executive Government in this house. The right hon. gentleman flattered us a fortnight ago by saying the House of Commons was superior to the legisla tive houses in other countries, and he instanced Washing ton. But I undertake to say no proposition introduced during the last 24 years was more calculated to Ameri canise the House of Commons as a legislative assembly than the propositions of the Government. (Cheers.) The Senate and House of Representatives pass what mea sures they like, without consulting the Washington Cabi net, and if I understand the plan pursued towards those who sit on the benches opposite, it is one for trying to re duce them to obedience to the views of the right hon. gen tleman. I think the Government should take the advice of the member for Calne, and bring in a distinct and defi nite bill by this day week. What has become of all your arguments against the right lion. gentleman tbo leader of the Opposition ? Was not one of your first arguments that the scheme ho submitted was crude and ill digested ? But was there ever anything more ludicrously crude than the propositions contained in the right hon. gentleman's R3SO - ? Did not every member opposite then say that it was out of the question to discuss the measure of the right hon. gentleman the member for South Lancashire until the whole scheme was before them ? Hon. members oppo site applauded the speech of the noble lord the member for King's Lynn as unanswerable, but if there was any answer to it, it could only mean that the scheme of the late Go vernment could not be entertained until the house was in possession of the entire scheme of reform. Hon. gent omen opposite must find themselves in rather a curious position to have been kept in the dark until half past two o'clock to-day. At present I can only say for myself that when the propositions shadowed forth by the right hon. gentle man are embodied in a bill, I shall take the first opportu nity of expressing my opinion on them. What is wanted by the house and the country is a considerable franchise extension. It is not denied that meetings have been held at which hundreds of thousands of people, speaking in the aggregate, have attended, and it is known that the uni versal sympathy of the working classes went with the per sons actually present at those meetings. They asked the House of Commons that the barrier put up in 1832 shall be thrown down, so that, as many demand, all may come in, or, as others ask, that the barrier shall be lowered suffi ciently to make a sensible effect on the borough represen tation. The bill of the Government last year, at the wide est possible computation, proposed to admit 204,000 by the repeal of the rate paying clauses; but what is now pro posed ? Instead of a£7 rental there is to be a£6 rating, which will vary according to the system of assessment in the different boroughs. (Hear, hear.) In some it may be from £7 to £7105., but generally it will run from £7 to £l.O. ("Oh, oh," from the Ministerial side.) It will not be equal, throughout all the boroughs of England, to an £3 rental. New franchises aro proposed, on which large statistics are raised; but then it is assumed that those will be now voters, wlt3n, in all probability, those to be entitled by funded property, direct taxation, and education, and many doubtless in the savings banks, mutt, almost, as a matter of necessity, be entitled to have votes at present. The computation, like that of 183'9, is nothing but the loosest guessing. The right hon. gentle man has adhered to the decision of last year to take a rat ing qualification. He knew it was the best, but it served his purpose, for it miss(' his party to power, the same who now urge that the question is not to bo discussed in a party spirit. (Cheers.) But when we come to the counties, why has he not accepted the vote of Parliament of last session ? (Hear, hoar.) When Parliament decided to reduce the county franchise to £l4, why did ho not have the libe rality and manliness to carry out that decision likewise ? (Cheers.) It is estimated that there may be an increase in the boroughs of 130,000, and of 82,000 voters on the rate paying qualification. Aud then it is proposed to make these childish new franchises from the saving banks and direct taxation. By a bill now before the house, a ratcatcher who keeps four dogs will pay 20s. of direct taxes, and will come, of course, into one of the new constituencies which are to save the country from destruction. (Laughter.) Will these proposals settle, or do anything to settle, the question of reform ? It is assumed that the house is unanimous for something, and will have a Reform Bill—but there is an essential difference, and a perilous one, between a Reform Bill and a reform. More than a thousand public meetings have been held since last session with open doors, and every one with a unanimous vote for something much larger and more complete. Hon. gentlemen opposite can not be anti-reformers now. (Laughter and cheers.) The seasons of transformations is now nearly over at the theatres ; but it is extended to the House of Commons. (Laughter.) Last session no language was too violent to apply to the moderato measures of the late Government — now gentlemen will have to get up and unsay all that was said. That is not a matter for quarrel—they have as much right to change their opinion as the right hon. .as the member for Calne. The right hon. mem ber for Huntingdon still sits on the Treasury bench. (Laughter.) Eight or nine years ago two of the col leagues of the right hon. gentleman went into the back row. But now the members for Huntingdon and Stam ford, and the President of the Board of Trade, are all before us as reformers. (Laughter.) lam very glad you are reformers, and what is more, you will be very glad of it yourselves hereafter, and your children, when they look back upon the records of this Par liament will judge you the more favourably, the more honestly, generously, and completely you do the work which you now apparently are permitting your Ministers to try to do. Last session I took the liberty of telling hon. gentlemen opposite that, although they got rid of the bill, and got rid of th 6 Government, they would not get rid of reform, but they would have to meet and settle it with the great people of the United Kingdom. Now they came down to Parliament and try to settle it. Do not try to settle it in any hocus pocus manner to which members in this house may agree, but try to settle it with reference to the people outside. They know that members of this house are not in favour of a groat extension of reform. Neither the Govern ment now in nor the Government turned out would under take so great and dangerous a question if there had not been pressure. Why, then, in the name of all that is sen sible and wise—why should we not attempt to step so far forward as to meet the views, honest sympathies, and desires of the great mass of the people now excluded ? If you stick to this little bill, if you stick to this £6 rating franchise, you but touch the lips and leave the palate dry. The great body of the people will repudiate your measure ; and I will venture to say that, in the first Parliament held after an election under it, you will have a proposition made to the house, certainly with regard to the franchise, and I believe also with respect to the redistribution of seats. (Hear, hear.) [The hon. gentleman here read a long ex tract from a speech delivered by Mr. Disraeli some years ago, just before he was leader of the Conservative party, C.mtending that it is almost impossible for a member in office to undertake to carry a measure on any great ques tion which in opposition he had been consistently opposed to.] Do not (Mr. Bright continued) imagine for a moment if the Government are anxious either to carry a real, sub stantial, conclusive, and satisfactory bill, or aro ready to support it, that I, although I ant not of their party, and they have opposed all the propositions in which lam concerned, should factiously oppose them. But having changed sides, having become reformers, having decided at half-past two to-day to allow the right hon. gentleman to appear in a now character as a reformer in this house,—(no, no, cheers, and laughter) —I ask you, for your own sake and for his sake, and what is worth infinitely more than your reputation or his position, for the interest of this great nation, and for the satisfaction of an excited and anxious people —(oh, oh) — that this measure, if it is to be passed this session, shall be one at least that should release me and other members who are in favour of Reform from further discussion, and agitation of the question during our Parliamentary life. (Loud cheers.) After Mr. Bright concluded, and as Mr. Walpole, who succeeded him, roso to address the house, a large number of members left, and in the noise caused by their moving the opening remarks of the Home Secretary wore imper fectly heard. Mr. WALPOLE said the resolutions were not merely abstract; for the house was bound to take them in con nection with the explanation of the Chancellor of the. Ex chequer. The present was a most favourable moment for considering and settling the question ; and the right hon. gentleman added that if the house went into committee Ministers were prepared to stand or fall by what they con sidered the vital principles of their measure. Mr. LAINtt objected to the proposals of the Govern ment as displaying a glaring want of finality. A house hold rating suffrage must, in his opinion, be at the basis of any soletion of the question of Reform. Mr. GLADSTONE, who, on rising, was received with loud cheers, said—l don't propose to go over the contro versial portion of the ground which has been occupied during this debate, in common by the right hon. gentle man the member for Caine (Mr. Lowe) and my hon. friend the member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright). lam so far at least glad that they have entered on that portion of the discussion, because they have been the means of eliciting from the right hon. gentleman the Home Secretary (Mr. Walpole) an important declaration, which is supposed to be entirely different from the declaration made by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) in bringing forward these resolutions. I don't assert the fact. I merely state that the contradiction was supposed to exist. I beg, however, to express my great satisfaction at learning from the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Walpole)—l use as nearly as I can his own words—that " it is the intention of the Govern ment to stand or fall by any of those principles which they may feel vital to the settlement of this question." That is an important declaration, because it shows that the Government, conscious of the weight of this question, will justly endeavour to fortify themselves with all that authority which accrues to a Government in the prosecution of such a subject, froth the know ledge that it stakes its existence on the issue. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has laid before us with considerable clearness the principal details of the plan of the Government, and conveyed to the house that it is the intention of the Government that we should be called upon to proceed by the method originally indicated. I wish now to know from her Majesty's Government on what infor mation they intend to sustain their estimates of the num ber of persons to be admitted to the franchise by the va rious changes contemplated. lam the more anxious to know the nature of that information, because as to a cer ,tain portion of the figures I listened with some incredulity. The most important point of discrepancy between the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the in formation 1 should have expected from him was with re spect to the numbers of persons to be admitted to the suf frage by lowering the £lO clear annual value to a £6 rating. Last year we were in possession of figures carefully pre pared by the most competent authorities, and we endea voured to estimate as accurately as possible the number of persons who would be admitted to the franchise by its re duction from £lO annual value to £6 rating. The right hon. gentleman has stated that number at 130,000 ; but, according to our calculations, it did not exceed 105,000. The total amount of enfranchisement now proposed in boroughs, as affecting the working classes, is 105,000. We proposed, by reducing the £lO clear annual value to £7 gross estimated rental, by provision for compound house holders and lodgers, for the enlargement of the suffrage to the extent of 200,000 persons substantially belonging to the labouring classes ; and no figure was ventured upon as the limit of the savings-bank franchise. In lieu of these, the right hon. gentleman would admit little more 100,000. I take the adoption of the £6 rating to be an addition of 100,000; the franchise for degrees will have no appreciable effect on the labouring classes; that for .£5O in the funds will have as little ; and with regard to that for deposits in savings banks, while I am doubtful in many points about it—especially in the form in which it is now for the first time introduced, and asto whether he will get 35,000 men, not faggot voters (hear, hear) —the number of artisans and mechanics who deposit in those banks is very small. Amongst that number are many domestic servants, the most dependent of the class. The member for the Wick burghs has referred to finality ; and he and the member for Birmingham are not far distant in their views, for the latter said our desire was to get rid of this subject for the remainder of our lives. Last year we believed that to make a liberal admission to tho franchise was essential to anything like finality. We thought the selection of ~the superiolportiou of the working classes would have done for the working classes what the Reform Act did for the middle classes. I know many minds in this house were honestly dissatisfied with the measure— (hear)—because of the want of a formidable barrier be tween those who should have the franchise and those who had not. For this reason I ask the right hon. gentleman, Does his extension of the franchise embrace only those who are rated at sums over £6 or those rated at £6 and up wards ? (Hear.) if the latter, the proposal is precisely in the same position as ours with regard to the want of hedge or lino or barrier, and is open to the argument that there is no security against its being carried further, and by withdrawing a moiety of the extension offeredlast year it offered a premium for continual agitation. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman evidently does not contemplate any provision for compound householders and lodgers. There is one part of his speech to which I must refer in terms of satisfaction —the bold proposal with respect to certain cor rupt towns. (Hear.) I may doubt whether a loeg period of disfranchiseniont might not have sufficed; but if her Ma jesty's Government makes a proposal for total disfraneise ment I shall not be the man to object to it. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman must have derived some encourage ment from the warm and lively cheers he received from this portion of the house to that passage of his speech. lam very glad ho has given an engagement that the very im portant change ho contemplates in the law relating to bribery and corruption shall not bo saddled on the bill for the representation of the people. (Hear.) I fully agree that proposals touching a matter of the utmost delicacy connected with the rights and privileges of the members of this house, which deserve the most careful and impartial consideration—(hear)—and with regard to which party spirit has never yet merged into view, should not be asso ciated with a subject which revives old controversies. (Hear.) The object in view in the proposals with regard to registration of voters in townships and diminishing the distances voters have to travel is excellent; but the sub ject will involve much consideration and many difficul ties will have to be surmounted. I now comp to the ques tion of procedure. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman must have felt as truly remarkable the precise concurrence of opinion between the member for Birmingham and the membei for Calne. lam sure he does not suspect those distinguished members of a corrupt collusion. (Laughter.) Such manifestation, between gentlemen who are pretty widely separated in opinion, and whose separation has been accompanied by tolerably brisk political conflict, is not mere accident, but a significant indication of the opinion of the house. It was the Home Secretary who last session launched this idea ; and he could not fail to observe that he was not supported by the expressed approval of his own party. It is intimately connected with the question of the lapse of time, which, when we come to handle so gigantic a subject in the limits of one session, is no longer secon dary. (Cheers.) If it is the conviction of the Government that this is the best plan, I waive the objection ; but, if we are to proceed by resolution, it must be by resolutions that embody the plan proposed. (Cheers.) The Government will be embarrassed by the terms of their own resolutions. The resolution on the distribution of seats implies dis tinctly that whatever seats Government may have at dis posal will be given to new communities ; but the statement now made divides them equally between new and old com munities, or gives a majority to old ones. The resolution as to the predominance of class is in its abstract character more like a proposition borrowed from the Oxford Debat ing Society than a proposition to be gravely submitted to the Senate—(laught er )— an d ill accor d s w ith the admoni tion in the Speech from the Throne with regard to charity, moderation, and mutual forbearance. (Hear, hear.) Why should the sore point of the question be touched—for what practical purpose is the question raised, when the proposi tion foi a £6 rating franchise, and its reception by the house, that distinctly and intelligibly define the manner in which the distinctions of class are to bo disposed of, are free from this objection ? What is the use of raising the ques• tion in the abstraCt when you are to deal with it in the con• crete ? (Cheers.) The Home Secretary recommended the resolutions on the ground that the forms of the house and the nature of the proceeding would coerce every man who has an idea on the subject to produce it here. (Heat, hear.) I should not have wished better than to have spoken that passage of his speech against proceeding by resolution. (Laughter.) These propositions are not the mere crotchets of idle and light-minded men. Many of the most acute intellects of the country have been busy with the question ; and from the closet of the study have emerged many schemes which would have to be debated with respect, and could not be got rid of without long and intricate discussion. Yet we are required to deal with the subject not in committee on a bill, but on preliminary resolu tions which define almost nothing as to the nature of the bill. (Hear.) I take it for granted there is no intention to press any proceeding to-night. Tho position of the house is fundamentally altered by the proceedings of this evening, and its judgment ought to be loft entirely free. The most convenient course will be to appropriate the next Government night for the purpose. The interval which may be claimed in the interest of members of the house will have, I trust, its value for the Government. (Cheers.) This house has never been called upon to discuss reso lutions necessarily of a vague character, and subject to every kind of difference of interpretation, when beyond them lies a clear and distinct plan. (Cheers.) It is a position so novel that I cannot venture to prognosticate what inconvenience might arise from it in the discussion. If we had definite resolutions embodying the main pro positions of the speech of the right hon. gentleman, I do not say we might not proceed to vote upon them, rather than appear to obstruct the Government ; but I hope we shall not go into committee on resolutions such as these, which are compatible neither with the dignity of the house nor with the desire to preserve and vindicate the character and credit of the House of Com mons, which would be gravely imperilled if it woie seen that wo did not exercise sound hnd strict judgment with regard to all the steps by which we are to proceed to the settlement of this subject. (Loud cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said—l will not now go into a lengthened discussion upon the figures which have been oxen cised by the right hon. gentleman. I will merely tell him that I shall tae pre pared to support the accuracy of the estimates which I have made. 1 have the figures on which he made his estimate last year, and I think he will find that the one we have given is correct. The right hon. gentleman's calculation refers to the £8 franchise. I took the £8 10s., which makes a difference of 35,000. The right hon. gen tleman has called my attention to the condition of the resolutions, and has drawn a powerful argument from tho circumstance of the extraordinary concurrence of opinion exemplified by the entire sympathy between the member for Birmingham and the member for Caine. Sir, it was very striking. (Laughter.) And when wa know that both the member for Birmingham and the member for Calue aro very anxious that this bill should not rasa, I am not at all surprised that they should be so hostile to the plan. I think it is quite clear, however great may be the divergence between their general political prin ciples, it is not disguised that the feeling on their part is a hope that the measure which the Government hope to have in hand should not be a successful one. (Hear, hear, and no, no.) I certainly infer from their observations that that was a point on which they are at entire sympathy. That is not the opinion of the Government ; for they are most anxious to introduce a measure that shall be successful. As far as the resolutions are concerned, I shall do all I possibly can to meet the views of the right hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear.) I shall insist on no resolution which will leadto idle controversy, or which refers to circumstances to which the attention of the house need be called. All the other resolutions, 'or most of them, are really of a very business-like character. (Laughter.) I should like to know what the opinion of the house is upon the system of registration, and upon the polling papers, and what they think should be done with regard to the expenditure for voters travelling. And there is one resolution I am very anxious that the house should pass when it goes into committee, and that is the resolu tion with regard to the Boundary Commission. It is of the utmost importance that the Boundary Commission should commence its labours at once, and I shall be ready to com mence in committee with No. 13. (Laughter.) If the House should pass that, the Boundary Commission will commence its labours as soon as necessary. With regard to the other resolutions, I have no doubt the house will, on reflection, take a sensible view and pass them. (Laugh ter.) It will be for us also to consider whether we can put some of the resolutions into another form. (Laughter, and cries of " Withdraw.") And with regard to the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman that we should not proceed to-night, it is reasonable and proper, and I cannot object. I suppose therefore that on Thursday next we shall go into committee on the resolutions. (Cries of " Bring in a bill," and Withdraw.") Mr. ROEBUCK asked if the right hon. gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not trifling with the question. (Hear, hear.) He gave him full credit for de siring to pass a bill, but that is a feeling which pervades the whole house. What possible good can arise from the house coming to a conclusion about the Boundary Com mission ? The Government can issue a commission with out our passing resolutions. (Hear, hear.) Such a pro ceeding can have no possible object, unless it be that the right hon. gentleman wished to ascertain beforehand what it will be safe to put in his bill. This is not a proper posi tion for a Minister. (Hear, hear.) Let' him come down to the house upon his own responsibility, and tell us what he thinks. The tentative process he has adopted does no honour to the right hon. gentleman, and will do no honour to this house. Sir M. STIRLING complained that Scotland had not Wen properly considered in the proposition of the right hon. gentleman. On Friday he will ask a quesion on the subject. Sir G. GREY asked if the Chancellor of the Ezchequer would lay on the tab le an amended copy of the Resolu tions, showing what he preposed to omit, and the order in which the remainder will be taken. (Hear, hear, " Or der," and " Withdraw.") He thought it would be much better to withdraw. (Hear, hear.) A resolution on the Boundary Commission is wholly unnecessary. Will the right hon. gentleman lay on the table documents showing the basis of his calculations ? (Hear, hear.) Mr. WARNER believed the plan of settling the question by resolutions would have saved time if the Resolutions had been more definite ; but the bill the right hon. gentle man has shadowed cannot pass; and it is obvious that s bill brought in on the Opposition side of the house has not a chance of passing —(oh, oh)—some arrangement must be come to between the two parties. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Sergeant GASELEE said the mode of proceeding in resolution is objectionable, and the first Resolution is per fectly ridiculous. Mr. H. SEYMOUR rose to put a question regarding the rating, but being received with loud cries of " Order" im mediately resumed his seat. The motion that the house resolve itself into a commit tee was then withdrawn. The house then adjourned. COUig TB,Y MARKETS. NORTH A MPT ON-FEB. 23. New whito wheat, 58s to 655; new red, 468 to 64s ; old whito,-62s to 68s; old red, 6!s to 66s per 36 stone. Barley for malting, 42s to 51s per qr. ; grinding, 29s to 36s per 3 0 stone. Oats, old, 2Gs to 33s ' • new, 238 to 32s per 24 stone. Beans, old, 46s to 49s ; new, 42s to 45s per 38 stone. 1" 055 7 38s to 42s per 36 stone. COLCLIESTER-FEB. 23. A very moderate supply of wheat, which met a rathe r slow sale at ab ou t l a t e quo t a tions. Barley also dull, at the prices of last week. Beans and peas steady at full prices. Wheat, white 6 s 70s Beans, Mazagnn......3 , ;0 4 0 ° red e's 67s Middle and 5ma11...443 48 ! Barley ... i2s .56s Peas, white 38s 44 ' Oats ..... ... -A - s grey ...36S i2O CHELMSFORD-FEB. 22. The market was fairly supplied with wheat, but millor o and merchants showing no inclination to buy, a slow busi ness was douo at barely the rates of last week. Wheat, old white....s2a 663 Peas, Partridge 4la 43 4 new • .b . a 67s Wham ..328 3 ...... 65 , old red 508 598 Riling - 8 new. 50a 58$ Dun.... ..... —3BB 400 Barley.... 268 338 ditto, new....— ..-8 8 Chevalier --a ---8 Beans, Tick, old ......4 0 s 4 „°3 Grind,ng , 5s 30a new. ...388 4 t: Malt sBs Ms Harrow l' icks.42a 4 ('' Chevalier 608 62i Oats •• • 2ls 27s Manga n n ew . - "4 3 0 0 3 3 4443: GRANTHAM—FEB. 23. Old white wheat, 65s to 725; old red, 60s to 68s; Heft white, 68s to 71s ; new red, 56s to 64s per 36 stone. 13 ` .. ley for malting, 38s to 455 per qr. ; grinding, 30s to 34s pol 3U stone. Oats, old, 30s to 32s ; new, 25s to 30s per ' 2 stone. Beans, old, 42s to 525; new, 39s to 46s per 38 state' Peas, 35s to 40s per 36 stone. ABERDEEN—FEB. 22. At our market to-day wheat was in fair supply, bi 4 the trade continues inactive, at former terms. White wheat 520 Od to 60s Od? Red wheat 48s Od to 55s Odc 621 b bushel. 40/blO Potato oats 24s Od to 26s Odi . b us bel• Common oats ' 23s 6d to 25s Od Bore 3ls Od to 32s 6d( 53th .. 0 b u gle!. Barley 32s Od to 33 s Od j OM' O a t mea l 20s 6d to 21s 6d ?boll of 2- ~,. Flour, tine 43 s Od to 50 s 6 d II sack of 280,: iil KIRKCALDY—FEB. 23. Good supplies of wheat, barley, and oats. Wheat fu ll y is per qr down. Barley and oats unchanged. Wheat. Barley. Oats. First...... 54s Od ' 3qi Uct 21s Od becond.... 56s Od I 3 s Oct 265.6 d Third.-- Ws 01 41s Od 29s 6d 1 COAL MARKET. Price per ton at the close of the market. s. d. 6 Walls End Hetton 9 Hetton Lyons 1 7 3 Hartlepool ............ 6 3 Russell's Hetton...• I s 0 south Hetton ......... Wrylam 16 6 Bradyell'sHetton l6 9 Tunstall Pensher Primrose 17 0 Carr's Hartley Walls End Haswell lB 6 Ships at market, 111—sold. 78. EXTRAORDINARY PRICE FOR AN ENGRAVINd t ; On Saturday, at the sale of the effects of the late Sir Ch.'-; Price, the well-known Itembrant etching " Christ 110311137; the sick," commonly called "The hundred guilder piec e d (from its original price), was knocked down to Mr. Paloaert o ' . Portland-place, London, for the astonishing sum o f X 191811.. the last previous bidder being Mr. Clement, the w ive known dealer of Paris. As may be supposed th is °tel l is of the first and finest state, with a good marg in --o eight being known, and of these five in public collectioots',„, Births. ,-, 1013 01 ALEXANDER—On the 24th inst , at 3, Upper -De'b. 0.10 , street, the wife of Lt.-Col. .Alexander, Grenadier Gu of a son. 11530' BURNAND—On the 24th inst., at 8, Sussex-plac e, park, the wife of Mr. Francis Burnand, of a o ° ° ' „por GOSCIIEN—On the 25th inst.,at 23, Park-street, Gr°,„, — s set l ' square, the wife of Chas. 11. Geschen, Esq., O' - who survived his birth only a few hours. 0 0 SCITDAMMIE - On the 25th inst. at White House , hill, Blackheath, Mrs. T. E. ScudamortA, of a sof] , Marriages. 1 ,0 111 BRIGGS—WARD —On the 21st inst., at St. MarY's CPin-ta'c' llorncastle, Chapman Briggs, Esq., of Oxcovabad 044 to Rose Freeman, eldest daughter of W. N 8 31. M.D., llorncastle, .Lincolnshire. A C i O 9 or CONGLETON ORMEILOD —On the 21st inst., the 00 .1 0 ton to Margaret Catharine Ormerod, of CrorliljOli daughter of the late Charles Ormerod, Esq ., " Board. ______ Deaths. BETUE- L J 0-hOunßtehtehe2l2l,dEinscist.„, aged 02d0,6C31.eveland-sclg3re' ITS"' park, ' Fo C L , E t vile °I pYt—ainOnthtehHe Hon. Fitzgerald. dr.lAym. Foley,outh, Fur.alin.co:.i s ay, e for HARDY— On the 24th inst., Mr. Arthur Georg° '' - I . liiriv",;, nearly 37 years manager in Messrs. Gilbert au u „,od '. ton's printing office, 52, St. John's-square, . 0-7 'nue RAMSAY— On the 23d inst., at 14, Princes-terrace, 0 0°1 park, James Ramsay, Esq , aged 69. Sit SMART —On the 23d inst , at 12, Bedford-square, tolit T. Smart, aged 91. • ,- log Woon—On the 23d lust at Stanley Place, 1 - 4eallj • -7 Of Charles Wood, Esq., aged 92. Ari ° WasoN—On the 20th inst , at Langham, Esse x ' c.l aged 67. . s 40 V i l; London : Printed and Published by W IL 1.1.16- 31 . 6 :i s ' o• -1 0 1 of No. 112, Strand, Piiiiter at `DIE SUN 0"CL,00511 strand. in Vac Precinct of the Savoy, in the Middlesex, —Tuesday, February 20, 1587.