The Sun. — London, England, 1819-01-29 00:00:00

'l..ipa:nle of being influenced iu his c c.o/uct I,y any ti ‘worthy motive. Mr. liAmtrasT inquired why the Petitioner had not proceeded by information in a Court of Law ? Unless there was something in the case which took it out of the common course of cases of the same description, it really was too much to call on the House of Commons to interfere. Mr. BENNET observed, that unless a corrupt motive could be shown to exist on the part of the Magistracy, a Court of Law could grant a romplaina. t no relief. This was a description of property suffering tinder circumstances by which no other description of property was beset. The Police Report of the last f-louse of Commons suf ficiently exhibited the herd-hips and cruelty in flicted by the present ;licensing systeni, although it might be impossible to bring forward a legal 'charge against a Magistrate, however oppressive his conduct might have been. He was therefore of opinion, that an appeal ought to he allowed to that House. If, however, the House thought otherwise, he would either withdraw the Petition,. or it might be rejected. He repeated that he 'could brinv forward this great question (for gi eat it t' as as affecting a large and industrious class of the community) after the Easier recess. Mr. CouaTENAy was of opinion that tl,e com plaint in the Petition was a fit subject for the con sideration of a Court of Law, and not of that Dottie, and recomtnended to the Hon. Gentleman to Avitbdraw Mr. HUME thought the public highly indebted to tl►e Honourable Gentleman, for the important part which he had taken in the production of the Police Report. No min who had read it could deny, that tl►e greatest abuses existed in the licensing system. He was strongly impressed with the ne tessi,v of bringing tl►e subject hefore Parliament at Ha early period. WPitl► respect to the Petition immediately under consideration, he confessed that he should be sorry to see the (loots of the House shut against such complaints of the exist ing authorities, as could not be successfully pro. smiled in a Court of Law. Mr. BENNET, however, as the general feeling of the House appeared to be against tl►e recep tion of the Petition, obtained leave to with- draw it. DISTRIBUTORS or STANIPS Mr.III`DoNALD moved that !het e should be hid before the House an account of the number of the Distributors of Stamps, and of the Lists to which they were appointed, together with a statement of all profits or emoluments enjoyed by each re spectively, from the sth January, ISIS, to the 6ih January, 1819 ; with an acc , runt of the ba lances left in their hands tip to the month of Oc tober, the security given, and the arrears yet to be received so far as the same could be made out.— Ordered.—He then moved for similar Returns re lating to the Receivirs-General in England and Scotland for the same period.—Ordered. BANK NOTES. Sir J. lkfactoNTosyt, as he understood his mo tion would not be opposed, should at once sub mit it to the House, if he were not anxious to take the earliest opportunity of making a few re• marks on the Report of the Commissionappoint - NI to inquire into the 'possibility of diminishing the facilities for forging Bank Notes. These ob 'servations he had intended to make on the pre ceding day, but the Member for Exeter not bring then in Ilia place, he had thought it right to defer them till he should be present. The inquiry which had taken place, be might be al lowed to say in a new Parliament, had originated in a motion nt,►tle by him (Sir James Mackin tosh) in the last Parliament, not in the hope of making forgery impossible, but with the more humble and rational view of making it more difficult. The House would do him the justice to remember, that he had Mated from the commencement that one of two advantages might be expected—either they would discover the means of making forgeries more difficult, or they would find that this was impossible, and show the House that the only sate course .was to retell' to that state -in which the crime of forgery could hardly be said to have existed—to cash payments. Now be clearly saw which of the two results had been obtained ; and though, from the beginning, he . bad expected something of the kind, yet he did not expect -that his opinions, would have received such a sanction as they, had found in the .;;Report now on the table of the House. lie did not expect this from that Commission, ,:which he must ever respect, as he knew it had • comprehended men of great science and pro." found, knowledge, and men of the highest talents - and respectability. He could not have been so sanguine as to expect that the Report of such a Board would 90 far have confirmed the impression be had previously had on his mind, that there was little or no prospect that the crime of forgery could be diminished, or the executions, and the misery of which it was the parent, prevented, but by a return to cash payments. This consideration must make a return to cash payments absolutely necessary in the view of every man wl►o regarded the lives of men and the morals of the people as the most important objects that could occupy the' attention of the Legislature. After these few ge neral observations, he would uow offer some re marks, more particularly applicable to the lan guage of the Report. 'Speaking in the presence of those who were then in the House, he should sp6ak with more satisfaction to himself, as he knew if he stated any thing erroneously lie should immediately be corrected, and was thus relieved from the tear of creating a false impresSion,-7 if he understood the Report, it represented about two hundred projects to have been laid before the Bank, all of which had been properly rejected. Of all those seen by the Commission, only nine de- • served consideration. There were twelve others that deserved praise, but only nine merited the greater praise of consideration, and of these vine but one was thought worthy of an experi ment. If be rightly understood the language of the Report, the other eight were not considered above the reach of easy imitation. The House would bear in mind, that of all the projects brought forward in 20 'years, not one had been considered to promise well, and of those lately before the Commissioners, only one was thought to merit an experiment. The cautious manner in which (highly to their credit) they spoke of this one, proved them extremely diffident of its suc• ' sear'' eey almost exhansted rite Erigi7sh gunge in search of expressions calculated to qua lify hope and repress expectation. , They only recommend it, not for immediate execution, but in order that it may be seen if it cannot be so improved as to diminish the facilities for forging Bank Notes. This Plan then being in the course of improvement, the Commissioners' hope may be attended with some success. But at the same time, in another part of their Report, they say that any improvement made is likely to be greatly opposed by the carelessness of the public. This he bad always considered a settled point, as one of the things to be provided against. Was it to be expected that the English character could now be changed, improved, and reformed ? to do good, the Bank-note must have such marks as would put it man on his guard. The Com missioners were aware of this, and far front feeling confident that that which they recommend will do any good, it is in effect almost stated, that to find a remedy for the evil was impossible, as that care lessness complained of was that which first of all made the invention of money necessary, and was that which was not to be eradicated. The two last sentences of the Report seemed to damp and extinguish the little hope which the previous part might have excited. He could not believe that any Metitber of that House would be willing to commit the property and lives ' of the whole people of England to the success of an untried experiment. After the failure of so many plans, which, to their inventors, and to many to whom they were shown, seemed as likely , to defy imitation as that which had the rtcom mendAtion of the Board ; he must consider the hope of improving Batik-notes so far as to pre vent forgery, so slender, as to he equivalent to uothing. It almost came to this, that the Report had u, that there was but one mode by which those forgeries, and executions, and horrors now NO generally deplored, could he avoided. It was for rite House to determine whether that one mode should be resorted to ; whether the crime now become so alarming should be terminated or prolonged. He would put the supposed advan tage (for it was but a supposed advantage) of an increase of commerce from art extensive paper cir culation in one scale; and he would put the crimes and executions which were the conse quences of perseverance in such a system in the other, and leave the House to say which ought to predominate. The last Parliament had fa tally determined in favour of the paper system. In the year 1816 the question came before them. A return to cash payments might then have been ef fected with comparative ease. Theydecided against, and fifty capital executions for forgery had fol. lowed in the three years that intervened between that period and the present. Parliament then listened to the voice of the Minister, and the fatal confidence which that House then reposed in the Government was felt at this moment.— When the nation had borne the worst part of the shock attendant on a return to cash payments, which it had sustained from the reduction of the circulating medium in 1815--when the great dif ficulty was got over—when they were in sight of land, then all the sacrifices that had been made were rendered nugatory ; because Ministers had not the courage to take one wise step and go for wards, instead of plunging us hack into all those horrors, to which they would fain confide the na tion again. After what the country had known, and after that Report had been made, which now lay on their table, he called upon the House to insist on a resumption of cash pay ments; unless Ministers showed the grounds of their policy, and, by a full and impar tial incptiry into all the circnnistatices con nected with the continuance of the Bank Restric tion Act, could establish the wisdom and the ex pediency of the measure which they proposed to bring forward. , He concluded, by moving an humble Address to the Prince Regent, praying his Royal Highness to order that there should be laid before the house a return of the number of per sons prosecuted by the Bank of England for forg ing Bank Notes, and for knowingly uttering, or having in their possession, forged Notes, from the 10th April, 1818, to 27th January, 1819 ; distin guishing the number convicted of each offence, and distinguishing those convicted of having in their possession forged Notes, pnrporting to be Bank of England Notes, for 51. and upwards, from those convicted of uttering one or two pound notes. Mr. COURTENAY did not wish to enter into a di3cussion-of the genet a) question, but was desir ous of offering a few remarks in reply to the stric tures of the Hon. Gentleman on the Report of the Commissioners. They had considered it their duty to ascertain, as tar as they could, the result of the experiments made before them. What might be thought of the result of their inquiries, or what weight might be attached to their opi nions, they had not troubled themselves to in quire, and, in his opinion, they would have de serted their duty had they suffered such con siderations to have any influence en their conduct. They were, however, aware that their Report must be subjected to much discus sion.. Ingenious men, confident of the merit of their plans, would he likely to think the seven Gentlemen to whom they were submitted incom petent to judge of their excellence. They had however thought, that to keep the public long in suspense would make ultimate disappointment be the more severely felt, and therefore they deter mined, before they came to that final result which he hoped they would reach at no distant day, they considered it their duty to report, that the public might know what they had done, and how far they had proceeded. The language they had used went to convey an idea, that to substitute a Bank note that could not be imitated, for that now in circulation, was not so easy as some had imagined. This was not intended to refute an idea that bed been much encouraged, and, lie would say, wickedly urged by some of the public prints, that nothing but gross ignorance or ne gligence on the part of the Directors of the Bank had prevented some such plan from being adopt ed long ago. The Commission, if they had wish ed to be popular, could easily have adopted such' sentiments; but they could see no just grounds for doing so. He, for one, should have been glad if it had been in his power to entertain such an opinion. The Honourable Gentleman bad truly said, that the Report only sp.lte of hiee of the Projects submitted to the Commis sion to have appeared peculiarly entitled to conshieratirib; He %do►►ld 'not,• however, hare it understood that there were not . many of great merit. The importance of the subject had called forth a great display of talent. Many ingenious plans were furnished by artists of this country, as•well as by artists abroad, and- espe cially by those. of the United States of America. One great fallacy run through most of the papers presented to the Commission recommendatory of different plans. Frequently, a machine was sub mitted to them which would execute notes so that they could not be manufactured with the same nicety by any other means. Many were sent with a detailed account, which, perhaps, satisfied the Committee that notes could not be executed with the same nicety, and produced with the sathe facility, without a similar ma chine ; but they forgot that a smaller num ber might be produced in a longer time, and though not executed with the same nicety, they Migl►t be done so as to deceive the !Mil ne without the use of machinery, or of the same means which they proposed should be adopted. Thus, many ingenious men wete shut wholly out of their consideration. The lion. and Learned Gentlemen had spoken . rather too much of the cautious language of the Report. Though the Commission wished to guard against exciting hopes that tnigbt disappointed—thoiigh they ‘vere anxious that public expectation should not he raised too high, they did not feel any thing like despair, though, to the Hon. and Learned Gentlem-tn, it might seem that they did. From the experiment they tecommqoed, they looked for the most beneficial result. They did not say that a note could be invented that wotilil never be imitated, but they did think :hat one would be produced that it would be extremely difficult to forge. They had selected the one they had preferred because they thought (and this was the opinion of Gentlemen of great scientific know ledge in the Commission) that improving on the best, by a combination of ingenuity, would be likely to lead to a satisfactory result 3 and he was happy to say, that ever since ate date of the Re port a material improvement had been effected.— When completed, he, in common with the other Members of the Commission, had strong hopes that the crime of forgery would be made infinitely more difficult than it had hitherto been. Mr. TIEIiNEY said, though some discovery ap peared to have been recently made which was not . . anlicipated at first, all that could now be said was, that there was a hope that the crime of for gery would be made more difficult than it is at present. Under - these circumstances, he' would s e i t wnm oi t o l l i . : t ? t e i r i) is i e) le a e s l yts , tl i oa l e t 7 v nn : a l l y is l m )tt i t r ii i i i l nt ,t e e ili t s noa ye i gft e r e s a t h t a l b ole ol l: a e l toi trp lu t s d ie l n t : r a iig t bmht t le f tt i n i cht s re: s va F t o tel( t il i tia l l i l l bmwe b iis e esci:l: k nit n ieol‘ o :lo : c ‘ si ;n k: s to ta s te ir' tl a m s ir it holies o b t e • ex pectations(ie- that Bank-notes for one or two pounds can be made so that - they will not be imitated. He wished to know when the new note would be completed ? Mr. CoURTENAY begged to say, that many of the plans were distinguished by great merit, and several of them were fur some lime under consideration. ' It was then suggested that one might be improved by a combination. In order to ascertain the ef fect of this experiments were necessary. They bad seen it applied to some kinds of paper, I) ci i could have no hesitation in recommending t ,to the Bank. If it could be adoted with an improve ment of the paper, it would be ready within a mo derate time (perhaps in the course of a month), and it would then be recommended to the Bank as that which was likely to render forgery extremely difficult. The experiment was now being tried at one of the best Paper Mills in the country. Mr. MANNINO assured the House that every nerve would be strained by the Directors of the Bank to carry t he plan into exec ution as soo n as possible. The motion was then agreed to, and the Address ordered to be presented to the Prince Regent by such Members of the House as were also Members • of the Privy Council. Sir J. MACKINTOSH tlien moved for a return of the number of forged notes detected by the Bank of England during the same period comprehended in the former motion. He O f n repeated that the result of the labours of through six months was merely the Commission thron an expectation that success would attend an un tried experiment. The Hon. Gentleman and the House were, however, much mistaken it they thought that he undervalued the labours of the Commission. Even if cash payments were re sumed, to prevent the forgery of Bank notes (which must still form a part of our circulating medium) was an object of great importance. All the aid which the improved structure of Bank notes could afford, would be wanted then for the protection of the Public. He, for his own part, had no hope that they could ever be made any thing like a satisfactory substitute for cash pay ments, or that the crime of forgery would be greatly diminished while the issues of the Bank continued the same. , . vV Mr. COURTENAY said, a better note would be produced, which it was expected would make for gery more difficult, and consequently make the crime less frequent. The motion was then agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that Accounts of the Exchequer Bills issued under an Act of the last Parliament for granting 30,000,0001. in Exchequer Bills, and under an Act fur granting 11,600,0001., outstanding and unprovided for, should be laid before the House. The motion was agreed to. 'Mr. ARBUTHNOT brought up the Papers just moved for, which were ordered to lie on the table. GRENFELL having asked a question relating to the Payments made to the Bank in the last year— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, an ex pectation had been lit 111 out, that a repayment of F , ,oun,noul. should be made in the course of the year 1818. The sinu of 5,000,0001. had been paid, and the remaining 3,000,0001. had been secured on the Supplies of the year.—Adjourned. LENT ASSlZES.—Yesterday morning the Judges chose their respective Circuits, which are as fol- low :-- NORFOLK—Lord Chief Justice Abbott; Mr. Baron Graham. MIDLANn—Lord Chief Justice Dallas; Mr. .Justic Butrough. NoicritEßN—Tlie Lord Chief Barsni ; Mr. Baron Wood. Host —Mr. Justice Bailey ; Mr. Justice Park. WESTERN—Mr. Justice Holroyil ; Mr. Justice Best. Oxintu)—Mr, Baron Garrow ; Mr. Justice Richardson, FOR l'ilE SUN% POPERY. MR, rriron,-1 half suspect your imp le E le in extracting from sonic Irish Journal the o rtic defensive of Popery, into y o ur Saturday's Stito And that knowing th e w a kefulness of VIGII-401 slyly intended me an opportunity of exposing roil castigating its writer. Be this as it roll' 1 0 shall always find me at my post ; and 56.° I°llg ' 10 a subtle Papist or a shallow Protestant bil, growl or yelp, s o l ong w ill I be ready to adniinilof ter the necessary muzzle. I am not afr aid a their bite ; but their balk is troublesome, must be silenced. This nanieless Brawler argues on the rrititi; 1 5 or i t tion of our Empire, as amounting to millions pt, 12 whereof, he tells us, are Pr°les"°c,: and of the remaining 30r4, a part 01 4 je nut, or tholie." Roman Catholic, he /beans. suit-like, he suppresses the fact, that the on e P ro , tion of the Empire which sends one hundrcd Metal hers into the House of ConimonS, is, in its !frit majority, Popish ; that Popish Ireland 91r-tivot pr edominates in the County Elections ; °°(/ 'roe when emancipated into the Cities and Cotr,, b she would' soon return, Towns, b y her V ir 01 prevalence, ninety-nine of those ,Members csi fi t d her own religion. He does not yet we e it convenient to avow that the Protestant irt v"'4" to sity of Dublin, shotitti she ittdeed be gli c " ve continue Protestant, would soon be t he s°lit ill - Eiectress of a lirotestant Member. T o d ell o .. this, he must reject their own accredited" 51.4-itg MENT ;" which, after vaunting the Irish Prlithe o Catholics as possessed of all the strength °I o f; Country, declares them to be, " v41.1101° 1" THE L' EOPLE OF IRELAND:' # n No.—This man is not quite fool enonguoh " ignorant that a numerical calculation of t" iO O/ 1 Empire, without reference to the. proF ar l c uhe share or power of its parts, is not a fair Ca go o lion of its electoral influence ; he hopes,l)°"' ' n ot that his readers will be sufficiently as"ine of to detect the unfairness. I leave any 113 4 ` .. dge. common sense and common honesty to whether Popish Ireland--not to mention tr n a;-•• ditiooal weight of the Popish part of ringi fb- dat* would send only " twelve"' Members int°, old Parliament, as this arguer would fain perB"a b t,re I leave it also to be judged, what influence en it►is' died Papists or more would hare w ith all onft tly wanting to keep in, or with any OPlrsil,„tes wanting to get in, by the barter of tbe ir li ffect" • upon any question, no matter bo w vitailY €%, ing our Constitution, for some extended 00 elusive privilege to. Pope: y.. 06LkettoithPapists deny this. — Letibe:pr „ t es, 0 - 00 1 1 " Before the Papists have wrigthd t h er nsel 4 L s into our Parliameut, it may be wise also to 1 01 " d what. has been done, or is to be d one , with , Counsellor O'CONN 81 ', 1 ;; ?T i ded, by his Circular Letter of 1814, to be coi*L-01; ethroughout Ireland for the use of the P °ll ,, ' florin' 9 in it day or two, Mr. I or, r i scud you a verit a bl e c o py o f th e C o ntiselk , r s t h ar, and a calculation of the amount raise c l i i c cc Lich, 1 believe, will svirtTer. your Reatler4• the same time, I may take, p er haps, the of asking, how many Boroughs, or noinirtatwi ts Uf . Boroughs,_ are to be pur c h ase d with this ego ri b 0 sum '-- This This Emancipatory Poll-Tax , v ',, i so their Lordships of the Popish Treasury - • adroitly levied ?--Te e chimi, of so p„ramonli ex, questirm will plead with Mr. O'CorsitaELL 6011001 case for postponing the coup, de grace kvbi fi c il intended fo r hi s f am ous " Addiess."' ne 51$ ' riot have long to wait for it however. rile r4 I did not expect to hear, the yid orginosh of Protestant Ministries employed in l'-'OlOl States, or Presbyterian privileges allowo l Protestant Government, dragged into t he 'o re don. When Popery evinces herself as W ee - did serous in her principles as we are, o r as ore that Presbyterians, she may be entrusted wi` b e j•-• power which neither we nor they hav e abui,l-(10 but not till then. The Protestants acic', ) ,' ) ; t :,;- -- " the government of the Church in th e his authority therefore is not disput el "., Presbyterians do not acknowledge it in 9117A:vitl‘ hie head :—his authority therefore is not . ed. The Papists acknowledge it io the 17°P-00 the King's authority is therefore by 1 11 ' 1° ' of. counteracted them alone, a v i s ible or re oC The same precedent cannot apply in dje be cases. Popery is so far " Catholic," f iat ;pie rs exclusive in her dogmata of ambition, once, and persecution. She is indeed sui getter and so let her remain. Cie No.—lt is not the " faith" of the 12otn a nLot tholics, nor th e ir a dherence to any P 3l. ",, c e lie " creed," that created or continues their e ," 0 0C sion. This evil, if it be one, is occasioneu'oro by their tiansubstantiatiou, or their ship, or their purgatory, or their seven arse'4.- opioions, which to Os ate nttetlY of less ; but by their pertinacious maintenauceued the Papal Supremacy, and their own independence rf our Sovereign in the very 0 0 qf his dominions. A maintetibnce, which is 00 an essential part of the Roman Catholic eel K t 1,6 nor indeed any part of it at all ;" and which o re Romani Catholics of other couotries ha ve . l 4: that v t l " o isti decency than to assert. Strange la, every Roman Catholic people, except the ° f o lio of heland . of Spain, and those who live iw in e igt) , ately tinder the shadow of the Tiara, thi s 6) 4 1. ritf arrogation is disclaimed, a nd th e due aU t- c ° o lte over the Church recognized in the n ative •'• cons/ear; reizn. t boli C t the Pope be the head of the Roman C L 'ii n et i Le doctrine through all Christendom, if his c " j . , - e 0 4 , ( s ) ( f ) pleases---but !et every Sovereign he th e " - o oti _ tht t the Rowan Catholic discippie in his I dd o s , r : :—we need then hear no more of rei n ' 0 4 strictinns• Tits AleilllS of Avoiding then/ 1 Il e „tet ~~~~t~ ,~hu lerd lar , b u k . 4 ett to 1 4.06; g e llei th e c fil tit filar *me i to ots