The Sun. — London, England, 1816-03-13 00:00:00

those seven millions anti a IA three minions Would be taken off the ag;ricuitur al interests,: :The Earl of CARNARVON contended,' that the . • noose should not be led away by the specious at., ' gument, that the examination of the external and internal situation.ot the country should be left to his Majesty's Ministers, But had Miaisters ever .., applied, their- attention to such a subject 1 Our r gracious Regent had indeed in his Speech re 7 t commended economy, but liad his Ministers ~ thewn any tvish to adopt that recommendation? t - Ipatea,d. of that, they had promised. to visit our poverty with a continuance. of the Property Tax, and of a large standiog Army. Next to cite r heavy load of taxation, he considered that the ekricultoral distress of the country, depended s,n tive low state of the correocy, owing to the excessive issues of private Banks ihrongbout the country. Even that branch of the sobject. he thought called loudly on the House to go into Kris Committee of ktopd Iy. The Noble ,Lord . -{liathurst) had recommended our keeping ' up a large force` for the purpose of preserving timbal ilTl C V of power.: but. the Noble l.arl should have recollected the periods of William and Anne, when we - returned With peace to our insular policy; but whenever a new War arose we were , the More ready."to throw Our Weight into the licale of that portion of continental Europe with which we pleased to take•a part. Power tor re yelling, el.iuger anti difficoltycame from the people; ::ad, with the return of.peace, such power ought always to return to the people. He instanced tile danger of maintaining u standing army, trial)), the power which Cromwell obtained through a Si railar body. 'Our ancestors were jealous of, 4_ standing army, and so ought we to be; the more so, because if our army were kept fire years in . . France, it would be no more like a British army than an army of Russiants Would be. He would go the length of saying, that he believed there usSrer was, au Administration that dared to insult the country with proposing such an unnecessary uktablishmeut and so enormous a taxation for a period of peace. Every thing called loudly for the llbuse to go into a CoMmittee of Enquiry ; and it was due to the people to proceed to alleviate their burthens. ' _The Earl of %Vasa - mot:ELAND thought there were no grou n d s for going into a Committee on the State of the Nation at the present moment. The distress of Ireland was that' which might na turally be expected to fall on an agricultural country, at u period when, front various changes in the sit oat ion of !he country, produce, the value of which amounted to 5 or 6,000.000/. had boil' thrown 1144 upon the market, He defended the Peace Establialiturna which had been proposed, and showed no saving of importance could he ef fected by those plans of retrenchment which had hi:en suggested. Thoic who condemned the Es timates differed fi;ohr themselves on 'a former night. They loy.+ then denied that the Peace, wes•seetoe: lie th o ught they could not con . • aistenily bold this language tom; while they as. serteditra military force, Which it was in comm. pl.ttion to keep up in this country, was wholly unnecessary. If the force called for was in their opinion Mitred unnecessary, thin it followed the peace must be secure. Much had hccu raid of the right of ,the people to have the Property Tax taken off on the return of peace. He - knew of no , right that they bad to demand any thing incon sistent with 'their comfirm The Property' TaX was considered to be that which would be found least oppressive, and therefore it was that Govern. meta proposed to , ,rattew. it on ' a reduced scale. The people had a right to. expectt hat, the national dipcnditure should be reduced as much as -pos sible. This had been done. It would be for Government to - consider what further reductions could be made in future years. • The Earl of DARNLEY supported 'the motion. It had been said in another place:that, the public . bad manifested an ignorant impatience to be re leased front taxation. He thought those who lteld thia langtiage had displayed an Ignorant ea gerness to impose unnecessary burthens on the country; it appeared, to be the object of Minis ters to bear down our navy and ,to raise up" our army beyond all former precedtan, Before 'the Hoposeil estahlishinent was voted, he hoped the ousc would consider what must he the conse , sittetice of its receiving their sanction, and he trusted, by such . a . vote they would not cause the , . Property Tax (which he was cute, could not' be. ' paid . ). to. be a t tain laid tin the nation. Alin istei s Would not.find this tux answer their purpose' n peace, as it had done, in war, and lie, hoped, be fore it was too,late, they, would consider kvlrethei the nation might not be spared this odious impost. The Duke of I E D F.O HD shortly replied. Lord Lvsmuocit, as a Noble Lotdhad men ' Coned the Military Club as being connected with the political systeth of the country, thought it ne cessary to Or, .as well in reply ter ,that Noble Lord, as in ,answer to those misrepresentations aVhich some Geieletneu in another place bad (un 4ntentionally, lit had doubt,) pronuilgated, that this institution was in no way connected with the polities of the ,Gorernment. The : insinuation that bad been thrown out, that a certain' Rills ttions individual had interfered in its aflairs; and that undue means bad been taken to induce Ofii-: cers to enter the Club, he, on in . tjuiry, wasautho - rimed to . state, dealt to) foundation whatever, lie, should vote for the . motion of the NOble rike..- .npt that he withdretv , his confidence front Minis . tors, wlioe policy, which bad conducted the war tit so r , 4- , lotHoi it (*elusion, he highly applauded; but in, the present st ate of the country, lie, thought Ihe iitttinity culled for was very desirable, if not absolmely necessary. A divi , iiou then taint 'Place, when there ap peared cottehis ' ' •" ilt Nett contents V !I' ktIAT 0 qr,thr_V, U(lledt'utirslllutitup-----0 '?: Anjoutned at tvelve o'Clock. • noest or COMMONS. Mr. JOIIN LESLIE FOSTER took the oath and his seat far lte z tiorutigh ut,cirw Yortuauo. Mr. CR()KER obtained leave to bring in Et Bill to regulate P41.41...y4.44e,1445:V0r5;es when. on shore. The was brougi i t iii , read a drit time, and ordered for a second read- It% to-tnor)bw. *atiotithviktA Bridge Bill was read a third time, and hay f~ M! • drit!LBITIVI tireeented a Petitlenirindthe Inhabitants and 'NII . H Niulyvim a I'otitkm froA t4 O (.1;;V/ at (tat cet ,teti- agatitst the- tnsotvent Debtors Act.—Ortiezed to tie on thi table. PE-N.IIOMS AGAINST. THE Pitf)PF.IITY TAX. • Mr. C.GttANT litiesented a Petition from the 'Yowl nf Nairn . ; Sir tV.Dottgli&, a Petition front the Inrongl Castle' 1: Douglas Mr.liolnic Sumner, Ptit'.titns from.tac Freehoiders of the Conn!) , of Surfi_.y, and the Inhabitants of the ParM of Cliertsey; Mr. W.Burrell, a Petition from the Inhabitants / of Brighton; Mr. Western, a Petition from the Inhabitants of Colchester; Sir M. Whitt, a Petition from Ilenley-upon , Thannvs; Lord BiiHi inet, a Petition•siztietthy the Farisle.: of the County of 13erwi4 ; Pr. T. Smith, a Petition from the Town aniltiiunty of No ; all 'agailist` the froptrrty Tax.; Lord; RANCLItF'E begged leave to read nn ex tract of the Choneellor' of the EXelreipter 4 s'speech on the Property Tax in 1509, in which that - Itight Hon. Gentleman declared, That. no one tract. proposedito . contitine the Property ax in time of :peace, even as an annual .grant.:!,- tbs : opinions had undergone no little alteration since ihar period. tieneral IllATtutw bad waited tltits ton4,to see what part' his countrymen would takelti thiS Ties , tipn. the Considered as mere libels the assertions' Mack in the public papers, that the influence ;which Ministera.had over the Irish Members ‘eril4 enable tl►etu cram the Property Tai down the , throats of the people. He trusted theyvvould . prove that this was nut the case. He trusied they' would bt ashamed, or if they were not; their country Akotdd be- ashamed for them, to impose a Tax upon the people of Engl A w . lOO l they m were not. to pay il.eselves. Sonic Gentlemen maintained that they. hatl.pot a tight to :einem? this ques'aoti. lie contended that they had. Since they had had the, mistoctune tn be forced: over here against their will, against their intere,ts and those of their entintry, by the itiyalitic and illjarious Act , of Union, they bad a right to speak -as British representatives. He considered that A ct of Union as the cause of all the distresses and disturbances in Ireland, mid if that country were no t tritruptillized, if that Act wet e not repealed, this grearEmpire would one day be shaken to its foundations. The time was passed to tyr4muize over six viillions of people. Since the Irish Mem berS tad. been foreed over to this country against their will, and to the prejudice of rrelaml, they certainly had a right,to express- their seutimentS upon this question. But he was inclined to think that , on the present oceaAon, it would be n iaer in them to wave that tight, and not to vote at al'l. Since for it' time at least, they bad been driven from their connfty, they tinglv to tty to conciliate the feelings_of England When it was broddlylvsserted drat Minister's conic! not 'carry 'lke Property Tax without the assistance of the 'lrish Members, they ought to prove to England, that it was not through their pliability that the Tax was imposed: Ile was qUite sure his countrymen %maid not lend, their hand tO such dirty work, If they would not vote against •it, he caked upon them to give no vote at all. Colonel IVo'on presented a Petition from the Town of Hay, in Breekuockshire; against all War 'faxes. lie stated that he . svas' - convinced it wns the intention of the Petitioners to have petitioned particularly 'against the Property Tax, 'although they had not mentioned it.' • - Lord STANLEY presented a Petition' from the Inhabitants of . the 'Toirn and Neighbourhood of Mauchetter against the . Property Tax. Mr. Piftwrq,"after giving a history of the re quisition and meeting in this instance, said, -the meeting had taken place on Thlirsday, and the Petition had been sent to London on Saturday with upwards of one thousand six hundred.natnes affixed to it ; 500 more' bad been erased, he eahSe bity4 had inscribed theirs on some Of the skins; If it luid been suffered to 'remain till Mon day-, it would probably have been . signed by 16,000 instead of 1600. The (Tense had beer! toll of =tik prosperity of oeci . j,untry. It bad ,been explained, that commereial 'prosperity was meant, but where did it exist ? Nothing was to he seen but agricul tural and comtnefciai distress: 'What evidence was there of any intentiou to e'Crinothlse on the part. of Ministers ? They gave nothing but symp toms of extravagance. They had fOrined too ex tensive an. establishment. They MO doubled the • flousehold troops. '.Trey had given subsidies to IVirteakberg, Hanover, al4d Brunswick, to relieve distresses of thoSe countries, whilst the Eng lish people were suffering, whole arr.inge ments wO41() maki:, them appear sincere in their. -supposition that the country was.really in a pros , perous state. And yet, in feet! of tilt theSe ex ' pencet, cecinotny was reeminnended by the Prince Regent, at the same time that there wit an excess of two hundred and seventy-seven thonsand pounds on the Civil I, st, and the country was called upon to submit to the Property ')'tik, to support that eXtravagant e\peuditure. He Ob it:6 ed - to that 'lax, as . a means Of gratifying that inclin.n!on for lavishness Which be inspliteA to his Majesty's Government, and'as a - Tax on Income am! Property, lout where there wits'ni) Income, and levied tin, principal. Lord CASTLLREAGu should not complain of the largeness of ,argument used. by the Hots. Culotte. man, on the subject of . a Petition, Ile should merelV'State, that what he had said teS'peeting the sUbsidy paid to Wirt tmberg, that it went beyond the service performed by the troops of that POwer, and was claimed for the relief of : the peo ple, was entirely unfounded, The only subsidy was of 1 per man, whilit the whole expense of .the army exceeded that sum nearly five times, The people of AVirtemberg Might. make a question with their own Government, whether that pay. merit might not be applied to their relief bht that had nothing, to do with the subsidy, as far as England 'was CollCOped. '.Chic emintry could not bring a titan to the field - under SO!, or 1001. the .'e , cpence nit the Continent Was between 401, and 501. 1 I/. 2s. per man did not form More than between a fOurth and fifth of that sunt. As to Hanover and Brimswick it had beery agreed to pay theta the difference between , 11/. and the real expenee of a. man . but out of that had been de ducted that pat't which France Was bound to pay. Ile bad thonghtit'his ditty to call the intention of theiltiuse to thoSe two gross mierepreseutatiOns of the. Hon. 6entieman, who had set his Opinidn Agttinst that of Parliathent, and assuMed grOund less" facts, Mr. IlitouoptAm .contended that no ineonve pience .could arise front' the .ptitetiee .which the Noble Lord had seetned lisposeal. again to censure, orentcringiioto ,thetteinvestigittions':on the sub , , jeer of petitions. What- had happened tbli night outlia; °Lithe Contrary, to prove their propriety t;it anti, kfielid; Bad hen htto it ni'istiat) tvhich the: Noble Lord had us,becn enabled to' set indite in favour of the plates of the Chancellor of the EN clicciffr7e. • 1 Sir ItortettTVaitt. thought- the project of the - continuance of the Inc-mite:Tax. the most tinfoi l: tunate plan that ever was 'attempted. He hoped Mlni:.ters would. not. think that Very convenient, 7 way of raising money, whicit took it-out of the pockets of the manufaeturers, who.had so cor dially enabled. them to prolecute the war. if the people of Manchester could now pay the Tax, they most have found out sortie new w3y ot living. . The CHANCEO-Olt of the Exctictiti tt CoUld not bur tonciir in whit had been said by-his Noble Friend. ,He felt ,themeceSsity ot setting' right the Gen4o7n,,,opposite, as to what s'. 5$ conceived to b'e the'arreiiis . List. He litiped'Cien-, - tlemen:wonld look over the papers. 11 they had done so, they would have-found that the only ex cess, accrued in - 18k2 , and I 613; and that ;this tess arose front the nutitiplied establishments of a 1 diplomatic nature, - whichhad arisen front the pc culiat eireunistancesin which we bad been placed,. The chargers for the:Roy.alYamily were exactly the saute, for the last year as they bud been . ; but the, charges for the establishMents of our Minkters , 'abroad had considerably increased. 'Under the 4th and tsth closses,•the espences.of the Regent's es;- tablisimments and the Royal Household, ,no ex rt:sses whatever had miseii, but the expences had Vice!! contra within the limitS prescribed . fly i'a'r I:Ament. The excess in the diplomatic branch of . t e Civil Li4t hAtt of eourse, nothing',to de with the regal splendour Or expenceS. The Right Hot). Gentleman, reverting to the obset vations,of Sir flout reel, m tlic.eflects of the Property Tax upon the inanufactitrers, contended that they 'were af fected by it less than any. other classes of .the community. lie :referred ,to .the general state ments, to sleeve what proportion of these personS paid ti the Tax, and ass'erted . that there W:l3 no class on which it fell so severely as on the higher orders of society, The ,I,louse li.rcl been told, that the cootiottance of the Tax wotild'he a con spiracy of the rich against the poor. Re would say, on the contrary, that the rejection of, this Tax would be very much of ,this deseriptiini, as - it would throw upon the poor a biirtneu Which • they would other % ise avoid. If the Tax should take place, the imposition upon the pourer classes would be 'as . nothing, or next toi nothing ; but • n o oth er Tax . could be substi toted which would not materially Affect them.— The very circumstance of this tax falling on per sons of great incomes, only, showed that the poorer, classes .were entirely exempt from it. :Whether it were Wattinwfor the purposes•of winding up the expenQei of the war, or for any other .occasion; he would persist that there walk 110 taN se ad% an tageous. He was willing to word the preamble of the Bill that this should' be the object Of it ; but he denied lttt,iug ever given any pledge con cerning.its discontinuance, -or that tiny Minister could have the power to pledge I'mile-orient as to what lie ineaut to du in the way of finance, it be ing his duty to take such measures as, under the circumstances of the times, would prove most for the benefit of the public. Parriathent, therefore,. never • Made such u pledge and none such 'could have been expected. • . , . Lord CASTLYIMAGII Itls 4i, in answer In a 0e9 7 , tioit of Lord Stanley; suggested that it ivnUlit be - better Co reserve the discussion trtl the (.2iit'LiSt .till t lac proper. time' arrived. Ile belie%eal it ‘‘4, s • pet fcctly iniderstood that the vote of the luSt year for the Civil List was to discharge' the arrears of the rast. seven years, during a great porOori of which time the annual in oviOon was acknowledg ed to. he' inadequate. . Lord Foust:l-ONR observed, that there was an excess , of 277,0001. In twelve Months.* It made no difference to him whether .it was in one de,. pertinent or another; whether it was citosed'by expenses for clothes, for the Itou et oki, or• for diplionatiacnitagetnentsl it still was en eXtrav:l. genre into which the House must inquire. Lot cl BINNING defended Ministers, on . the ground that they had been always ready ti) give %fiStviery to questions relative to the Property Tax', but without gnitgliitoiht.'gentrat topics, in reply to. the speeches which' were. perpetually made, and which were nothing but repetitioas of theisttine sentiments over and over again. Ile denied that there hatrbeen any eXtravagante In the'Civil List expenditures ; the negociations having caused the multiplicity of Foreign Ministers, 'and the neces sary increase of expence. Ile had no recollection that.itis,ttight Honourable Friend had given any pledge for discontinuing the Income TeX ; and it was clear that no Minister of the Crown toithl pledge himself to do what might be contrary to the interest of the country, nivemilining self to take the Bill only for two years, tutist'be taken as. the best proof of his sincerity. • IVIL FINLAY repeated his arguments against the . Tax. Mr. ATETITUEN thou; fit another serious evil caused by the Tax had hecn alludetho that even ing • • it had. led to poaching ; a nd h e wou ld appea l to any Gentlemen whether there could, be tt more serious evil than and hear., hear !)—Could a greater evil exist that not to be able , tO sleep in one's,betl in peace, for tear at Outrages which gangs of poachers, of more than tweoly in tittitilier; May be induced to Conimit Mr. Fouans hoped Gentlenien would take every Opportunity to discuss the merits of the Tax as the Petitions were iolvoglit a4ittlois he hoped, that on Monday next little more would remain to be done .thao to- propose the Tux, put it to the Vote - , and throw it ant. 111 r. UneNt.'au. repeated ‘vitat be bad sail on forme' occasions, that as the Right non, Gentle. m an only wanted to raise twelve . he could get them in various ways, 4,tlic7nit con tinuing tile Property Tax ; and after a conversa tion, in which Mu. Jones, Mr. Swan, Mr. then fell, .Mr. Peter More, and Mr. 11. Stninfer para. eipatad, tba Petition WriS brought up, read, and ordered to Be on Ole table, iNlr. THOMPSWC wish-0 to knew whether any regolutiond Were in contemillation for promoting t h e intereg of the Whale Fikhery ? - The CHANCELLOR of the- Enceitaatitut said, the subject was Limier consideration. in answer Grenfell, the Cuatoteistutit Of the lactitAtltat expre.ised liis regret that thy subject or the hank Lush btt beers piled but he hopti tbitt noilling.tVont4 Orr, ut it from coming ou to-morrow befot•c: -the Artilt • Ti-lt t_t*l 4 ciD'YtOlP ' Lord Calpt.El4AG,ll rose; pursuant to artier, tO move for leave to ' , tiring in. two Bills—one the itore effectually - to re•gulate the Safe, eustody . of Napoleon Boonaparte, and the 'whet to regulate the intercourse of neutral ships with the• island of St. Helena, while Boonaparte should be detained in that island. Doubts' had been entettained, •• whether it *as' conipetent to the Crown 'to detairti Buonaparrca prisoner after the termination of the tear; of which doubts, however, he himself (Lord C.) did not Partake; but yet the Bill , he[propoktt was deemed necessary, with a view to remove those doubts. the justice and policy of de. taining „Lluonaparte in custod y, l e appreltended. , • that' anal dou bt could exist ; and tit to the legality of the proceeding, with reference to the law of itatioils",`l4 was fully satisfied - of the,propriety o f the measure. As a Sovereign Prince;' we were warranted in. detaining him, in consequence of his breach of treaty, and incapacity to afforti any gnaa. • rantee for the observattee. of any - , trialy ; hot we had this additional ground to justilyour conduct,' th'at he was _a prisoner of tvar,.•whovas native of Cot•sica, sins the Subject *of :Frtine'e.;,' WI; ieit Polver .had declined to claim his restoration. Thetvfore ; .independently of his general vitaracter, this' contl. try was justified. in , detaining thiS lndivitl,i ii `lie; custody according to the law of nation. Bun the circumstance of • Boone - parte' having- wirbdrawu from Elba, wh'ere, by a solctnn trc.lty to'remoin, !arid MS •utter.inability to afford ally assurance for the 'observance - dif any en. gagements, Warranted ''' rhos, whe ther regarded as a•sovereigo Prince, or a Prisoner of War, his'detention was justifiable in a technical :view, according to . the law rif'nittiotiS, and that de'« lekition was inrperiously called for by a due con.' 'consideration for public' safety anti general pe'ace, (Hear, hear, hear !)-.L.With regard to the treat meitt•of Buonaparte, it was proposed to extend to him every iudolgence that was Ton istctst with iris sale custody, end: that • 'he shoiilil •eiperienee - the most liberal treatment its a prisoner of war. But it was material that the officers appinied to su.., perintend 'h's custody should be aware in what light to consider Buonaparte; what opinion they were to entertain of the character of their pri.. 'soner. Now with respect CO the intercourse of Foreign Nations with 'St. Helena, the object of .the second Bill which 'lie proposed was to regu... late the execution of the measure which bad been already not ilied by Government to neutral Powers. When these two Bills were brought forward, Gen.. Hemet would have an opportunity o f c ons id er i ng their details, and suggesting any amendments they might think proper, but he apprehended that their introduction tvottld not be opposed. • On the ;notion for leave with respect to the firsi Mt, i3IIOIIGUIANT said, that he should not object toihe - arrangements proposed by the Noble Lutd, aod'tchatever diffcrenee of 'opinion might exist up- Ant Some point - % conneeted ‘Vith the intitSiire, - he believed that there was arr . tmanienons COlfeUrretiVe WWI qoyerinuent NB . 10 the propriety of detain- ing Bounap,arte' in safe •cristody. Therefore, as far tis the Bill ,noW alluded Noble Lord ap l potted tO go, he fully approved_ of it i end lie also agreed With the l'coble Lord's' view of the law of 'nations, as it applied to this ease. Yet if doubtl -'exiAed as to the' legality - of the procceding,,it wa.S.right to reinove theta by a legislatiee'act.-6- But; according to the inclination of his mind, it wtt.- legal to detain a' priiioner of War whose re storation was not claimed, by that Ptiwer . Of which: It Was the tubjeet. In this Opinion, however, ,vias aware that he, differed from o thers wh o had also considered the subject. Bitt with .regar4 , to the main piot:he apprehended that them eimlil be nn') tlith:reoce of opiolon, to the policy of detaining Buotraparte in citsiody, granting him, hoWever, eyery possible lenity arta iadolgence whether there should be an y,, anti what perititir to' the . custOdy,of Buouaparte, and whethet• 'it . 'wctuld be right to releusse hint under any change cif cireo instances, might I)cc.i.nne a question hereafter; but it was evident, that, in time txi tits tote of atrair4, his detention was ,justifiable procedure.: • ' Vottalts aked, whether it vas intended by the Noble Lott! tit praline any compensation to , , those settlers or others who heti prOperty on the, Island of St. 'Helena, for p the loss ; they were likely to. through the exclusion of, the trade 94 neutrals from that Wand . Lord CASTI.Enr,AGH expressed his belief that the persons alluded to would rather gain than lose by the operption of the proposed measures. Lord NUCAENT Irhether liiionapartss.- was to be regarded by the Officer, appointed to superintend his custody, as au independent So. vereign,,or as z a Prisoner of War - 1- 401 - 11 C ASTI, Hi.: AG H replier{, that be s ac to be regarded by those Officers as a prisoner of wai, to be treated with the utmost liberality., LOCKII ART observed, that it was:quite to detain this prisoner, because lic WIIS Eyonaparte. GrIENFRLL, adverting to an observation of his Leamed Friend, said that there should be no limitation to the. custody of this pristiner but that of his fife. . Mr. linn n uGAm lamented Ole misonderstanding of his Friend, as he proposed no limitoion what ever. lie therefore hoped that no such mistake should go forth, especially with the sanction at a Vriend. _General MATIIRW asked, whether it teas intend. ed to extend the provisions of this Bill Co (iuneral Bertrand and the other Officers who had ttecotn•%- putlied 1:long/ute t o H e l ena ? The ATTORNEY. , GE?3EtRAL observed ; that the Bill itself furnished an answer to this cittestion, for the till referred only to finonaparte and bad no relation to any other person. A o lr, whether it was intentled to prevent the Otlicets who accompanied