The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

NNW aus,. ()h -ere they its, they ned that od Hope ce could injustice buients. lies was ronshire. was think of ch great nds and ng here, ley, and miter of meat it logicalll le, mull yes from In New IniAs, or fed and 2e of the it, as s re were ep them s there. e troops ey were i affairs. ?d owing ear.) It English ted, that the pro- !in were d a total lifficulty espect to e in 1re ,35. He a most oops last a panic 3y might 'ere able ect; and light on ebellion. in arms vere pre y, and at very ini at there rnian in ant there English .eat mass in mind ak of the 'rough a are could •e on the in 1847. tendency LI excite- ounce of it paying ,ws were iced in a ?d, anti a He spoke heard it y of this that pro last year it. He )uld be a mld wish who were ishnacnts int which n that subjected sanguine 3 fancied :citement [4, wh ile the fi,• arrived , ate 1131.1 : i s view' • ect cot]: bstaine' any Ps a Y state ado Willi the general concurrence of this and preceding. be permitted to infer from that circutnstaece the measures of which so large majorities ap- Prov ed, or in which all concurred, could not be quite to far Wrong as the Honourable Gentleman would B _ ll .ggest. He was not disposed to take exception to any r u e t f the minor points to which the Hon. Gentleman fer err edi neither would he allude to the re nce made to local taxation. He did not see th W ha t connexion it had with the conclusion to which bee 11 °n. Gentleman had come, but thought it would taxation found that a general increase of local had arisen from the general improve ment which, in recent years, had taken place in local ad ministration, the adoption of better means of providing for the secondary punishment of criminals, and properly stneet:onernodating lunatic asylums. The general increase 'iocal taxation was owing to a general improvement in trfeornen, ninistration. Addressing himself to the main ques cheettooothkeno exception to the Hon. Gentleman's re year 1835. The Hon. Member for Mon trose and others had constantly referred to 1792; and e re was no reeson why reference should n I P be made to a prior year. But when the maourable Gentleman took that year as the standard a Which the House must necessaril y revert, ;f 'w ought to be remarked that there were two conditions 2t l which any year could be accepted for the purpose; first, that in the year selected adequate pro vision was Made f or th e pu bl ic service; and, secondly, that no sub sequent change had taken place in the state and circum stances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman proposed, by recurring to the expenditure of 1835 on the naval and military services, to effect a re duction of 10,000,000/. He stated truly that in 1848 the total expenditure was 54,185,0001., while it 1835 it Was 44,422,000 L; the difference between them being little short of 10,000,0001. But the whole of that in crease was not to be estimated as an increase in the naval and military expenditure. The Lion. Member himself referred to an extraordinary item of expen diture—the Kafir war, which was entirely unforeseen. Then there were 276,0001, for Irish distress. The lion. Member referred also to the increased expen diture for civil purposes. But, besides an increase on the consolidated fund charges, principally for judicial establishments and Irish constabulary, there was an in crease on the miscellaneous expenditure of ' 4,09 9 ,000/. • leaving the increas e on t h e nava l an d military 6,015,0001.- Were the Hon. Gentleman to carry out his reductions by assimilating the expenditure to that of 1835, he could effect a saving of only 6,000,0001. It was not consistent with the true and best interests of this country to effect reductions in the naval and military establishments to .the extent he proposed. If his proposition were simply to carry out every practicable economy, he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) did not differ from the Hon. Gentleman; and he hoped to prove that Ministers had not been unmindful of the pledge they had given last Year, to make every reduction necessary for the public Ititerest, although they could not anticipate the halcyon days to which the Hon. Gentleman looked forward, when a,. n ational quarrel would be settled in a court of arbitra tion, and every sword would be converted into a plough snare. Under these circumstances the Hon. Member _ c ould not complain of the manner in which he proposed c meet his motion. It was desirable that the opinion of thet House should be deliberately expressed upon the great question whether the establishments of the country s hould,_ be redu c ed to the scale of 1835. Experience had ;"„cwn that the provision made for the public service in °, 35 was inad e q ua te. For four years which succeeded 1 835 he had the honour to hold the office of Secretary to e Admiralty, and during that time he was subjected to repeated att ac k s , no t for increasing the est i mates , but fo r a parsimo n i ou s disregard of the best interests of the country, b y keeping them at too low an amount. The estimates ot 1834-35-36 were constantly referred to as a ePreach, !and yet the Hon. Member had se lected the lowest estimate of the three years, namely, that of 1835, as the pattern for reduction.—(Hear, hear.) In the i 3 :::: 13, 835 we had no naval force in the Channel , sand the necessity of maintaining such a force was insisted upon in the discussions which took place k tl the est i mates i n t h e f o ll ow i ng y ear s. The Hon. Mem ber Was mistaken in asserting that the increase of the flee t :in 1836 was occasioned by the alarm respecting R e tls sia- The ground upon which an increase in the naval force was proposed in that year was the necessity o n ,afrarding further protection to British subjects trading l aroad. It was not until three years later, namely, in ; 1 131 , that the Hon. Member for Birmingham and the - 41 . Member for West Kent dilated in that House on the danger to which the British coast was exposed of a descent„ from Russia. The Hon. Member complained .'at, although our forces had been augmented upon va rious occasions, they had never been subsequently re duced• but when the Hon. Member enumerat ed the hmuds to which the country had been successively ex- Posed, such as the Chinese war, the dispute w ith America aoout Oregon, the dispute with France about Otaheite, and the rebellion in Canada, it did not appear that at hisperiod of the time to which he had directed observations could we have reduced our establish tieing to the standard of 1835, without endangering the interests of our commerce abroad and the safety of our Shores at home. In 1844 the Right Hon. Gentleman ePPosite, who always evinced a desire to diminish ex Penditure where it was practicable to do so, reduced the number of seamen from 43,000 to 36,000; but a single Year's experience satisfied the Right Hon. Gentleman that he had carried his reduction to a point at which it Was impossible it could be maintained; and in the able address which he delivered in that house in 1845, and which was a perfect text book ou financial matters, he Sontended upon grounds not arising out of temporary circumstances or any particular state of things, but re ferable to general policy, that the number of mete proposed to be maintained in 1844 was not adequate to protect the interests of the country, and he accordingly increased the number of seamen to the amount at which it stood in the pre sent estimates, namely, 40,000 men. It was, moreover, clear that the Government of the Right Hon. Gentleman did not think that even 40,030 seamen were sufficient for the service of the country, for when the present Govern ment came into office in 1846, they found the number of 1:11 an employed considerably more than had been voted, and on the Ist of January, 1847, the number in excess Was 4,000, making the total number of seamen then em- Ployed 44,000 ,men. 4,000 men were reduced on the e stimate of 1848, and 3,000 more would be reduced in 184 9-50, making a total reduction of 7,000 below the force which the Hight Hon. Gentleman opposite proposed to maintain in 1845. The principal circumstance to which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite referred as Justificatory of the policy of maintaining the number of seamen at 40,000 was, that since 1835 a large field of ! s cPloyment for the British navy had been opened in the eastern hemisphere. In 1835 our trade W i th,_ r China was mainly carried on by the in imentality of the East India Company. Now we five ports open to us in China, in each of which it 7as necessary to maintain a British, man-of-war. Since 1835 , too, New Zealand had been added to our colonial Possessions; and then, so far from regarding the adop tion of frt. e trade as a reason for reducing our establish taenta, the extension of commerce which might be antici pated from that policy would give rise to increased de mands for protection to British subjects, and that Protectio n must be extended to them, in whatever part of t he world they might be placed. The same argument applied, of course, to our military force. The happy and contented state of Canada, as described by the Hon. Member furnished some answer to his allegations of colonial misgovernment. A military force was as little required in New Zealand as in Canada for the purpose Of keeping down the British population; but it was ne cessary to protect that population against the war ase attacks to which it had been exposed during the two years. The very letter which the Honourable Member had read from an emigrant was calculated prove that the money was not ill expended that main tained an armed force to protect colonies which opened an extensive field for British enterprise and industry, and from which we might in future years derive the raw Produce for manufactures which in turn would be ex- Ported to them. It was necessary to remark, also, that S ince 1835 a vast increase had taken place in our steam navy. In 1835 we possessed not more than two or three steam vessels. In that year no steamer had crossed the Atlantic, and learned treatises were written to demon strate the impossibility of such an event. Since that Period the application of steam to the purposes of the Royal Navy bad been carried to an immense extent, and had now reached a point beyond which it was not ne cessary to advance. The increase of the steam navy rendered necessary an increased charge for stores, but no attempt had been made to show that there had been any extravagance under that head. Upon this point he requested the attention of the House to the following Passage in the report of the Select Committee on the army, navy, and ordnance estimates:— " The vote for stores differs essentially from the other 'fetes, inasmuch as it is not an estimate to provide for the consumption of the ensuing year, but has reference to a more distant period of time. The effects of an "clue reduction in this vote are not, therefore, per ceptible until some years after the time when the in sufficient estimate may have been proposed. In such a ?age it is obvious that the appar ent econom y in this vote O nly a postponement of purchases necessary for the maintenance of the navy, and, in fact, relieves the esti mates of one year by casting the burden on the votes of a future session." 4 - large increase of expenditure had likewise been in ettrred by the establishment of steam-packet communi cation with different parts of the world, but that was an Item which the representatives of commercial and menu 'acturang communities, whose interests were so much Promoted by rapid communication with distan t p arts of , tu e e world- could not reasonably object to. The in rase of exoenditure which had taken place u nder the heads of stores, buildings, and packets, since 1835, riounted to not less than 2,310,4001. Our steam navy L av ing now attained its maximum, a reduction was about to be made under the heads of stores and build legs to the amount of 638,0001. Trusting that the nstate ment he had made must hav e satisfied the House Of the ta l l ossibility of making the l ar g e reduction in the nav y estimates which the Hon. M ember p ro p osed, he would e no ß' proceed to deal with the question of the army. In rhsideri ng t hi s ques tion, justice was rarely done to the r ish army. There was no army on the face of the Rlobe from which such hard service was demanded in tim ePeace.—(Hear.) With the except of ion of the ser .,;e. . 4L "L a portion of the French army in Algeria, and of cue Russian army in one or two possessions, the armies .?.? the continent a l powers remained alwa y s in time of race in th e coun t r i es to which they re s p ectivel y be 4neged- With British troops the case was reversed. ee u e Y were exposed alternately to the frosts of Canada, C e tropical heat of the West Indies, and the burn ir Plains of th e E a st—year after year t he y p assed etM One extreme ot c li ma te to the other , and did eer duty in all circumstances.—(Loud cheers.) It WolQd be cruel to make the British soldier's service More severe than it was at present.—(Hear, hear.) lat 1845 the Right Hon. Gentleman urged that with the amount of force ,which had up to that time been main taiteed it had been found impossible to relieve the soldier THE from the undue severity of the service required from Sul vice Attalla be eispoi tionee blur:—lse ye ers its cis colonies, fifteen years in India, and five years at home. No one would maintain that that was too favourable an arrangement for the soldier; but the result had been, that from 1834 to 1838 the soldier had been at home, on the average, only four years and ode month, and from 1838 to 1842 four years and ten months. The addition which had been made to the army now enabled the sol dier to pass in this country the full period 01 five years, which were essential-to the recruiting of his health after service in the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) Although fifteen years was the period assigned for the service of troops in India, some regiments had been obliged to remain there, from want of relief, for nineteen, twenty, and even twenty-five years.—(Hear. hear.) At present there were eleven regiments at home which had been here more than five years, whilst there was only one i❑ the colonies which had been there more than ten years, and only four in India which had served more than ten years. If any attempt should be made to press more severely upon the British soldier it would before long be discovered that such a thing was anything rather than conducive to economy.—(Hear.) It was the intention of the Government to make such re ductions in the army as, without infringing the rotation of the soldier's service, would consist with the duty of a Government not to, they believed, maintain a larger establishment than in their conscience the in terests of the country required. The Hon. Member in referring to the events of last year had truly described the great mass of the people of this country as being at tached to the Crown and the Constitution. The spectacle which this country exhibited during the past year would form one of the proudest monuments of British history; but it was apparent from the admissions of the Hon. Member himself that there was a risk of the contagious example of the Continent spreading to this country, and, under the circumstances, it was his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) belief that no greater armed force was maintained than was absolutely necessary.—(Hear.) Al though the Hon. Member had spoken that evening in a tone of commendable moderation, the language employed by the Liverpool Financial Association in discussing the same question was not equally temperate. In one of the tracts issued by that association it was stated that the army was maintained solely for the purpose of feeding the younger sons of the aristocracy.—(Cheers.) Liver pool certainly was not the place from which such asser tions might have been looked for. Only last year the Government received application after application from Liverpool for additional troops.—(l.lear, hear.) Troops were sent and encamped on the outskirts of the town, but the cry still came for more, and also for the Suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus Act.—(Cheers and laughter.) It was not quite just, nor, indeed, honest, in a town which had benefited so much by the army in time of need, to turn round and say that the army was main tained only to support the younger sons and brothers of the English aristocracy. The persons who would first suffer injury from any tumultuary proceedings in this country would be not those connected with land, but those connected with commerce and manufactures; and it was, therefore, most ungrateful on the part of that portion of the community to cast upon the aristocracy the odious imputation of personal motives.— (Hear.) The next source of expenditure, and no doubt it was a very large one, was the ordnance service. Upon that they proposed no reduction, because it was necessary to maintain that branch of the service in fall vigour. It was most expensive and most difficult so to maintain it, and he thought that if Hon. Gentlemen would only refer to recent events in India, they would agree with him that it was disgraceful to this country that, having such advantages in all the arts of war, as well as in civiliza tion, we hardly ever went into action in India but that we were overmatched in that branch. In like manner the principal increase was not in the increase of force, but from the change of the armament, both as to guns of large as well as small calibre. He did not wish to go into details, but simply to refer to that which would be brought forward in greater detail when the esti mates were moved, namely, the increase, not only of cannon, but also of small arms. A great change bad taken place, and he thought it would be an act of cruelty if we sent our troops into action anywhere without putting into their hands the best and most im proved kind of arms. In the Chinese war a small party of our troops, armed only with the common flint mus kets, were surrounded by 3,000 or 4,000 Chinese ; they bravely defended themselves against that overwhelming force for several hours, but, a shower of rain coming on, their muskets would not go off ; a party of marines, armed with percussion muskets, was marched to their assistance, the Chinese immediately made off, and the soldiers were rescued. There had been a large increase in the expenditure of the ordnance department in conse quence of that change, but when it was completed he thought they would be able to make a reduction in the amount of the annual estimates. To a great extent the change had been already accomplished. He believed, also, that there was a considerable reduction for stores in the ordnance estimates for this year. Certainly there was a very prevalent feeling in this country not much more than twelve months ago as to the defences of this country not being sufficiently strong. He did not participate in the extraordinary alarm that was expressed by some Gentlemen on that (the Ministe rial) bide of the House as to the danger of foreign invasion but he thought the Government would have neglected their duty if they had not taken fair and adequate means for the protection of our great naval establishments. Again, the great object, and a just ob ject of that House, had been to improve and raise the moral condition of the British soldier. For that purpose better barracks were required, and that could not be effected without additional expense.—(Hear, hear.) If we were to have soldiers of a higher and better descrip tion, it was only just and right that proper accommoda tion should be afforded, so that that improvement might take place.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Geptleman had alluded very shortly to the increase in the miscellaneous estimates. The increase in that expenditure had almost Biwa) s taken place in items that had been pressed upon the Government by the House of Commons. Year after year charges had been put to the general expen diture. Government were either called upon to un dertake, or did undertake, duties which previously had been performed locally, and new charges, of an enormous amount, had been put on the miscellaneous estimates. He found that, since 1835, charges perfectly new had been put on those estimates to the extent of 600,0001. a year, and that on others there had been, not an ordinary increase, from year to year, but an increase by transfer and other things. He found that by the transfer of the county rates, the in creased vote for education, the increased expenses of convictions, and for printing, there had been an increase of nearly 700,000/. He was not professing to deal with minor sums. He was as much in favour of practical economy as the Hon. Gentleman himself could be—there was no one in that House who could take such an interest in economy as he who had to find the means of pay ment. . But if they were to give that protection to life and property at home, and .to trade and commerce abroad, which he believed to be necessary for the deve lopment of our induArial resources, it would be-impos sible to reduce the naval and military expenditure to the extent the Hon. Gentleman contended for. They had., however, kept that object in mind, and he would en deavour to show that they had not been behind in effecting all practical economy. He was happy to say that he very much concurred with the Hon. Gentleman in believing that we were in a very different position this year from that in which we were about this time last year, when it was necessary to bring forward the votes at the time those estimates were framed; and be it remembered, although the French revolution had not broken out, there was a state of feel ing pervading Europe, and even France, which it might be expected would break out, and which actually did break out into rebellion, and no man could say at that time what the effect of that effervescence might be. He thought, therefore, the Government would not have been justified last year in reducing the number of the troops or the number of men for the navy. His Noble Friend stated that he was not prepared to reduce one man in the course of last year, and he thought his Noble Friend was justified by the occurrences that had taken place; but he thought we were in a different position now. It was evident enough in many parts of the continent that those parties who were the leaders of the movement had not seen much reason to congratulate themselves upon it. There, as in this country, they had found that revo lution was a losing concern.—(Hear, hear.) In the neighbouring country of Franco they had shown a pa cific disposition, by a considerable reduction in the army and navy. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded— I believe that the conduct pursued by my Noble Friend at the head of the Foreign-office has most materially' contributed towards the preservation of the peace of Europe; time has been gained for the passions to cool on both sides, and men have seen the folly of engaging in revolutions; and the chance of maintaining peace is as different from what it was last year as it is possible to conceive, and there is but small probability, I hope, of our being engaged in any hostilities—(Hear, hear) — and the result is that we have felt ourselves justified in making reductions. I believe that these few incendiaries to whom my Hon. Friend alluded are deterred from act ing by finding how impracticable it would be to excite the population of this country to any unwise disturb ance. The mills are now pretty generally at work, and employment general throughout the manufacturing dis tricts, where disturbances may generally be expected to originate in times of distress. Tney are now not only alive to the lolly of engaging in outbreaks, but they have not the inducements of want or distress to do so. There is no prospect of any disturbance of the peace in, this country. The Hon. Member, in referring to the events of the past year, entirely omitted all reference to the sister country. Perhaps he will say, because there was no great reason to apprehend disturbance there. I believe, however, that it was not the fault of the parties. themselves that disturbances did not take place. Mr. COBDEN—I said there were not above one hundred persons in arms. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There are, however, well-authenticated accounts that much larger numbers were assembled, who were only re strained by the conviction of the presence of an imposing military force, and it was no fault of the authors of the insurrection that it did not—l will not say succeed—but come to a head. Even there, however, there is little risk of a recurrence, for I believe that without some stimulus nothing of the kind is likely to break out on the part of peasantry themselves; and this House has wisely armed the Government with the means of putting down those who are disposed to promote agitation.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, the Government has felt it to be in their power to propose a considerable reduction, both in the army and navy.—(Hear, hear.) I shall now refer to the state of affairs in India, where war has for some time pre vailed. The demand made upon us by this state of things has been met by a reduction of three regiments from this country. These regiments have been taken off from the British esteblibhment, having ceased to he employed here. The actual reduction in number is 7,000, while the weight taken from the charge of this country is three reginsents.--(Hear, hear.) The army last year amounted t o p 03;000 men; this has been re .. SUN, duced to 103,000, which is rather more than the atneent of' I _^ ts, ' sa *'• 7Q, , " - PH in 1845 was 100,000, that in 1846, was 108,000 men. Last year we were enabled to make a considerable reduction in the expense without any reduction of the force. I wish to state the amount of those reductions which we have been thus enabled to accomplish last year, without any reduc tion of the force, and to compare them with the reduc tion to be seen in the estimates upon the table of the House; partly effected by a reduction of the actual ex pense, and partly by a reduction of the force. The re ductions which were effected last year amounted in the course of the session to 828,5001. The reductions in the estimates of this year, as compared, not with the original estimates of last year, but with the reduced estimates effected at the end of the session, were in the navy 730,8561., in the army 378,624/., and in the ordnance 337,8731., being a total reduction in the naval and military establishments of the country to the amount of 1,447,353/.—(Hear.) Sir, I do not anticipate being able to make any great reduction in the miscellaneous expen diture of the country, from the large increase that has taken place in our foreign expenditure. I, however, take the reductions actually made last year, with those as they appear in the estimates now upon the table of the House, to amount to no less a sum than 2,275,8531. —(Hear, hear.) I hope the House will take these facts as a proof that we are not insensible to the call of reduc tion that has been made upon us, and that it will be ad mitted we have carried out whatever practical reductions could be at present safely or reasonably made. It is hardly worth while to go into any details in respect to other items in which we have also effected great reduc tions, inasmuch as they must be viewed as inconsiderable when compared with those large sums to which I have already referred. Now the Hon. Gentleman has referred to the charges for the collection of the revenue, and such expenses. Sir, I can assure this House that we have not been unmindful of this important subject, nor have we have been induced for the sake of patronage, as it is alleged against my Hon. Friend and his Government, to keep up more offices than we think are absolutely neces sary for the general interests of the country. We have since last year consolidated the offices of Paymaster of Exchequer-bills and of Paymaster of Civil Services with the office of Paymaster-General, whereby we effected a saving to the amount of 16,0001. in these small offices. — (Hear, hear.) We have also consolidated the stamps and taxes and excise. I have taken upon myself the respon sibility of making some of these reductions. And I have relied with great confidence, while taking this course, upon the activity evinced by the Chairman of the Conso lidated Board, Mr. John Wood, the most active public servant that I have ever had to deal with. We have been thus enabled already to make further reductions to the amount of 9,0001. or 10,000/., with the prospect of still greater reductions to the amount of 8,0001. or 9,0004 more. In like manner we have appointed Commissioners to in quire into the collection of the customs. Ido not, however, anticipate that any large saving will be effected in the collection of the revenue, because such saving can only be made by doing that which I would be unwilling to do, namely, by lessening the accommodation afforded to the commercial part of this kingdom. The Commis sioners of Customs, in their report, suggest reductions to the amount of 50,000/. Now, when the Hon. Member talks of the extravagance manifested in the collection of the revenue of this country, I must state that he is en tirely mistaken in his impressions. We have heard a good deal of the dissatisfaction that it is said is felt in respect to the course pursued by the different boards in the collection of the revenue, and in the keeping of the public accounts. Let me, however, inform my Hon. Friend behind me that the charge of the collection of the revenue here, as compared with a neighbouring foreign country, is very low indeed. In England the charge of the collection of customs was under 6 per cent. ; in France, however, where they had the advantage of more detailed accounts, the charge was 12 or 13 per cent. Now, the charge of the collection of the whole revenue of this country is only about 7 per cent.; whilst in France it is 14 per cent. In another neighbouring country, too, where the people were in the enjoyment of more democratic institutions than even in France, where they had almost universal suffrage, the expense of the col lection of the revenue is no less than 43 per cent. — (Here some Hon. Members appeared to express dissent.) Now, mind, I am not dealing with any particular items of the revenue—l am taking the whole amount of the collection of the revenue. If I were to do so, I might mention the fact that though the stamps were collected in this country under 3 per cent., the Post-office revenue was collected at a cost of 59 per cent. It is not, how ever, fair to take any one item or another. I take the whole revenue of this country, including the Post office (which is alone an expense of 58 per cent. in the collection), as collected at a charge of 7 per cent.; while that of France is 11 per cent., and of Bel gium 43 per cent. The Honourable Gentleman has alluded to the pressure of taxation in this country. Now this is a charge which it is very difficult to meet. I doubt not that the Honourable Member would find it as difficult to prove this assertion as it is difficult for me to answer it. But comparing the incomes of individuals of this country with the incomes of indivi duals in France, it is my belief that taxation presses much less in proportion to the incomes in this country than it does in France. I have, Sir, a long statement which may be reasonably referred to on this subject, but at the same time it is not one of those documents which it is possible to quote for the purposes of my argument. I find that in the course of the last 20 years the people of this country have been relieved from taxation to a most enormous extent. The taxes from which they have been relieved, too, were principally those which pressed upon articles of consumption and materials of manufacture.—(Hear, hear.) I am at a loss to under stand, then, the grounds for these assertions which we have heard now for the first time made, although we have been told that they have formed the subject of grave discussions in associations that have been formed through out the country, aad have found the strongest expres sions in public opinion. For the last 20 years there have been repealed taxes to the amount of nearly 20,000,0004, whilst during the same period there have been imposed taxes to the extent only of 9,800,0001. This country has thus been relieved of burdens within that time to the extent of 10,000,000/—(Hear)—or very nearly 10 per cent. of those taxes which we had to bear previ ously. This change was, however, still more material than simply the mere amount would lead us to suppose, because, while the taxes imposed were those which only affected property, the taxes repealed were those which affected the actual necessaries of life, and the raw mate rial for the manufactures of the country.—(Hear, hear.) In making these remarks let it not be for one moment supposed that lam finding fault with these changes. So far from it I must say that I entirely approve of them. — (Hear, hear.) I entirely concur with my Hon. Friend in thinking that the absence of taxation upon every ar ticle of food of last year was an essential element for maintaining the peace of this country. I am proud to say that I have borne my.part in the•passing of those measures which have contributed, in nay. qpinion, in a great degree to relieve, the trade and commerce of this country.—(Hear, hear.) But if we really look at the great articles from which those duties have been taken off within the last twenty years—when we remember that corn of all descriptions comes in free of' duty—that we have meat and cattle free of duty—that the beer-tax has been totally repealed—that the duty upon sugar has been reduced from 275. to 135., more than one-half— that foreign sugar has been reduced from 635. to 205., co!onial coffee from 6d. to 4d., and foreign coffee from 201 to 6d.—when we, in fact, consider that all the arti cles which the great mass of the population consume have been thus cheapened by the removal of taxation, I think it is hardly fair that we should be met by this new charge of pressure of taxation which is now bursting into life for the first time. Within the last few years we have seen, too, we have been relieved from the heavy taxation which we had formerly to bear in respect to sheep's wool, cotton, flax, hides, glass, and other articles. However grievous the existing burdens may be to those who do not like to pay, we must at all events confess that the taxation upon the sources of industry has been either wholly abolished or consider ably lightened.—(Hear, hear.) Before I sit down, I must take the opportunity of referring to the Hon. Member for Montrose. I do not agree with that Hon. Gentleman in the propriety of the course which he thinks it right to take upon financial matters. I cer tainly admit, after what has passed last year, that the House has a right, upon some early day this session, to demand a statement from mo as to how far the expects ttons which I held out la,t year have been warranted, by the course of events since. The Hon, Gentleman may remember that when I asked the House to renew the income-tax for a period of three years I did express my hope and expectation that at any rate in these three years, if the income-tax were renewed, and certain other taxes were retained, the income of the country would more than equal its expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) This I said somewhere about the early part of the ses sion, when I think it would be admitted things were so uncertain that no man could answer what a month or six weeks would bring forth.—(Hear, hear.) Towards the close of the session I, however, renewed that as sertion, and with much greater confidence I stated my belief that the expenditure would be kept for the future far within the limits of our income. Now, Sir, I am happy to state that the experience wo have had since that time has fully borne out my anticipations. Ido not know whether lion. Gentlemen have in their hands the balance-sheet up to the sth of January, which is the last authentic document of the revenue and the expenditure of the country. The period which I referred to in my anticipations was that up to the sth April. The period which we have before us goes up to Jan. 5. I stated in August last that I anticipated the ordinary revenue of the country to amount to 51,550,0001., the old stores and appropriations in aid to produce 50,0004, the China money 80,0001., making altogether 52,100,0001. The Hon. Gentleman, will, however, see, on referring to the balance-sheet of last year, that what is called or dinary income amounts to 52,422,3384, and what are called miscellaneous receipts, which are the three last items, amount altogether to 118,6561., making the total amount 52,540,9941., instead of 52,100,0001., as I anticipated.—(Hear, hear.) This large sum of China money, which we cannot fairly reckon this year, I estimated at 80,000/. I have, however, re ceived 84,000/. Therefore, taking that amount off the account, the income of the year up to January amounts to 52,933,693/. My estimate was only up to April, and was 52,100,000/. There is, therefore, about 800,0001. morn than I anticipated the revenue of the country up to April would be.—(Bear, hear.) I estimated tho ex penditure at 52,422,0001. It has, however, been rather more than this amount ; but wo must consider that we were obliged to include in it the expense of the Kafir war, the naval excess, and the vote for Irish distress, which I could not at the time have caculated upon. Excluding then, these three items, which amount to 1,620,0004, the expenditure of the country is 52,563,348/. Therefore, taking the income, after deducting the re ceipts from China, and the expenditure, afcer deducting these three extraordinary items to which I have re ferred, we find that the income up to January 5, 1849, is . 52,933,693 4 , and the expenditure is 52,562,3481., the difference between the expenditure and the income LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, Belgium, but he (Mr—Hume) did not believe it. He c.eisiuered that no people on the face of the earth were more heavily taxed than the English, especially the middle classes of them. But even if they could bear the burdens that were placed upon them, that was no reason why they should be deprived of a single shilling more than was absolutely necessary. He wished to know under what peculiar circumstances this country was at present placed to require a larger amount of money for keeping up her establishments than she did in 1835 ? In 1835 the national expenditure was only 44,000,0004, and now it was 54,000,0001. He could not trace causes for such an increase, and the matter, he thought, was de serving of inquiry. His Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding did not desire to make an immediate reduction in the expenditure; he wished that it might be lone gradually. Ia 1821 an Hon. Member—Mr. Bankes —moved for the appointment of a Committee to con -dder the question of the public expenditure, and yet the army establishment of the country was by no means as great then n,s it was at present. In 1821 the army consisted of 81,240 men ; now it was composed of 113,000. The Committee, in their report, begged to assure his Majesty that they felt deep satisfaction at the ,iesire of the then Government to revise the taxation of the country with the view of relieving the people of the burdens which were pressing upon them. Increased salaries in the public offices was also a question which was prominently alluded to in the report of the Commit tee; and the same matter was likewise strongly observed upon by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Addington in the course of debates in that House in 1803 and 1804. It was then stated that in consequence of the stoppage of cash pay ments in 1797, and an increase in the price of food, it was necessary to raise the salaries of these who had perhaps 700/. to 1,000/. a year, and those who had 1,000/. a year to 1,5001., but no such causes existed now for raising salaries and keeping up war establishments. It was not, however, of the extent of our military terce that he complained. There were other depart ments in connexion with the public service which were equally heavy in proportion. Ho would mention, for example, the ordnance department. In 1792 the expenses of the ordnance department were 4,8484; in 1828 the expenses were 151,000/.; and now the expendi ture of that department was estimated at 471,000/. for the year. In 1828 a committee, which was appointed to inquire into the subject of taxation, called the attention of the House, in their report, to the enormous increase in the public expenditure, and pointed out how, in their opinions, it could be decreased without detrimert to the public service; and the result was that the ordnance force was soon considerably diminished. England was now at peace with the rest of the world, and why could not her military and naval establishments be as safely reduced as they were at that period? With all due deference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must say that he had heard no answer given to the Honourable Member for the West Riding with respect to his question on the subject of the cause of the enormous increase which had lately taken place in the public expenditure. In the report of the Committee of 1828, it was also stated that, however de sirable it might be in the opinion of the Committee that this country should for some time after the conclusion of the last war keep up a large military establishment, yet they thought that the extent of the force ought to be regulated by the circumstances of the nation. They, moreover, felt it their duty to urge upon the House the . expediency of considering the pressure on the finance s ! of the country, and the necessity in consequence of re-I ducing taxation. An urgent appeal of that kind, made' after the circumstances were duly weighed, ought to receive consideration and be acted upon.—(Hear, hear.) Of the 58,000,000/. of taxes, 28,000,0004 was permis. nently applied to the payment of the interest upon the national debt, but he saw no difficulty in making a reduction of 10,000,0001. in the balance of 30,000,000/. His Hon. Friend had, in his opinion, made out a very strong case, and ho should give his cordial support to the motion. Mr. HERRIES called upon the Rouse to remember what was the motion which was under their considera tion. It was essential that the nature of the motion should be understood. The question was that they should go into Committee of Supply upon the estimates; but before doing so the Hon. Member for the West Riding called upon the House to agree to a reduction of the expenditure of the country to the amount of' 10,000,000/. They were called upon to reduce the ex- penditure to that amount immediately. And considering the manner in which the motion of the Hon. Member had been hallooed on at public meetings he was surprised to see how little interest was taken in it on the other side of the House. The debate was about to languish for want of supporters when the Honourable Member for Montrose rose, and he (Mr. Herries) did not think that he had added anything of great importance or of weight in favour of the motion of the Honourable Mom bar for the West Riding.—(hear, hear.) The House, having before a perfect knowledge of the condition of the country—having also heard the explanations of that evening—was now called upon to say whether it was practicable to reduce the expenditure by 10,000,0001. It the motion were that they would use all practicable diligence to reduce the expenditure of the country then© was no one on either side of the House who would say nay to it. It was a libel upon the House to say they were not anxious to reduce the expenditure as far as they could with a view to the safety and the welfare of the country. By-the-bye, he was reminded of the com pliments which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had paid to the Hon. Member for the West Riding for the tone and the temper with which he had introduced his motion. No doubt the manner of the Hon. Gentleman was calm, and his tone was fitted to the temperature of that House; but he could not help re membering that that was not the first time they had heard the projects of the lion. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) He could not help remembering that, for the last six months, nothing else had been ringing in the ears of the people of Liverpool, and Manchester, and other great towns.—(Cheers.) True, they had heard that night no diatribes against the aristocracy—(Herv. hear) —no insinuations that the army was kept up for the sole benefit of the young men of rank and fashion— (hear, hear) —had been indulged in there. But if the Hon. Gentleman was to speak two languages, he (Mr. (ferries) would infinitely prefer that he would be violent there and decorous out of doors—(Loud cheers)—rather than that he should be decorous there and violent where violent language might bo productive of bad effects. lie, for one, could not join in the compliments which had been paid to the Hon. Gentleman. And while upon that topic he could not help saying that the conduct of the Government upon the estimates during the last session had very mainly supported the agitation of which they had good reason to complain. The estimates were submitted to a Committee—they wore abstracted, as it were, from the cognizance of the House— withdrawn from that Lull discussion which, in all proba bility, they would have received, and during which such full explanations might have been elicited as would have rendered it impossible for the attempt to agitate to succeed. He said the House was not used fairly in re gard to the estimates last year. It was understood in the House that the estimates were referred to the Com mittee unconditionally, yet one of the first resolutions they came to was, that they would not enter into any consideration of the policy of the estimates. But that was the whole question as far as the House was concerned.—(Hear.) The secretaries for the vari• ous departments came down and very quietly took votes on account, the House believing that such a step was only taken until the Committee re ported. The House had been kept in ignorance of the fact that the Committee would not report upon that subject. therefore he charged the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with, in some measure, having created the agitation, but which he had certainly done good service that night in allaying. They had been told that the revenue and the expendi ture wore to be eqUalised—a gratifying announcement, and one which rendered it unnecessary for him to say more upon the subject until the estimates were regularly before the House. The Hon. Member for the %Vest Riding had provoked a comparison between the expendi ture of France and of England, and had drawn the com parison as unfavourably for England as possible. lie thought that House had enough to do to discuss the affairs of our own country, without affecting to criticise the proceedings of any other.—( flear, hear.) He was sorry to enter upon the subject, but he was provoked to it by the Hon. Member. Neither could he altogether regret the circumstance, because he thought a very im portant lesson might be learned by a comparison of the conduct of the two countries in financial matters. If they would review the finances of Franco and England for the last twenty-eight years, they would see great reason to applaud the English House of Commons and Government, as compared with those of France. lie would show the comparative progress of expenditure and revenue in the two countries which had been brought so prominently under the notice of the House; but he begged the House to remember that he was not a volun teer upon the occasion, but he had been provoked into the comparison. lie found that in 1820, a year when our army of occupation had been withdrawn, and France had returned to what he might call her normal state, the expenditure was 3c000,0001. English; 1821, 35,230,0001.; 1822, 38,000,000/. ; 1823, was the single exception to all the years between 1820 and 1830, which was the time of legitimacy—in that year there was the unad vised expedition into Spain, and the expenditure was 41,000,0001.—th0 other years ranged a little under or a little over 38,000,000/. In 1830, a considerable change had taken place in France a revolution happened, which was expensive. —(Hear, hear.) All revolutions were expensive, and those who promoted them ought to tell the people so.—(Cheers.) In the happy year of revolution the expenditure was 60,000,000/.; 1832 and 1833 it was 44,000.000/-4 was then successively 40,000,000/, 41,840,000/, 38,800,000/, 40,000,0001!, 41 600,0001., 42,400,0001.; until in 1840 it rose to 44,000,0001.; 1841, 46,800,0001.; 1842, 54,000,000/.; 1843, 52,400,000/ ; 1844, 55,700,0001.; 1847 it was 60.000,000/., and in 1848—another year of revolution — it had arisen to 72,000,000/. These latter years proved that the pressure from without, instead of being econo mical, was wonderfully expensive. A new dogma had been started .amongst the gentlemen of the Man chester school, that the more property was subdivided the greater was the security against war, for every pro pietor knew (het he must bear the cost. Were net these Gentlemen aware that during the whole period of the inereestng expenditure in France that subdivision o' property }ad been going on—did they not know that such subdivision of property was partly the cause of the war? Much of the increased exp,nditure had higherb, been caused by the expedition to Algiers , w hich the and more educated of the French people were much against; but . bu i t ae t t he th p e rel l s o u n r . e f G ro e m ntl w ern it a h n ou r t et a l , e a .c s t . he when he again urged thedemocratic n t u o p o o strong nt when he next urge.l might choose to give the prefe over the monarchic principle. but tell them that if they on his followers, lit him honestly . democratic principle they must put preferred the run people on o t a t i g te i t a their li h_ands in their p ockets. Now, then, lock at the E Mr. II ME—Loo k at th e expenditure of America. Mr. HENRIES continued-110 could not compare the FEBRUARY 27, 1849. American Government with the English, because it was impossible to tell what the expenses of a government were when every independent state had an expenditure of its own to bear. He was not going, however, to de fend extravagance or any unnecessary expenditure; but he was going to show that wo had been more careful than our continental neighbours, and that there had been nothing like a sudden passage in our expenditure from 38.000,000/. to 72,000,000/, as there had been in France.—(Hear, hear.) lie found that the income of this country from 1820 to 1825 was 56,000,000/., just about what it was at present, During the next five years, from 1825 to 1830, it was 54,000,0001. From 1830 to 1840 it averaged 47,000,0001. The expenditure of these years from 1830 to 1840 was the least from the year 1820 down to the present time ; but it was - one of these years which had been chosen by the lion. Gentleman as the standard to which the present expenditure was to be reduced.—(Hear.) During the next five years, from 1840 to 1845, the expenditure rose to 49,000,0001.; and last year it was 54,100,000/. re sult of the comparison, then, which he had instituted between France and England for the last twenty-eight years was, that in the latter the expenditure was nearly the same now as it was twenty-eight years ago, namely, 56,000,000/.; whilst in France it has risen from 35,000,0001. in 1820, to 72,000,000/. in 1848.—(Cheers.) In reviewing this period of our history, there was an other topic worthy of consideration, and that was the amount of taxes which had been repealed of late years. —(Hear, hear.) He found that since the year 1814 taxes had been reduced or entirely removed, to the amount of 53,394,000/. Against that, 14,0J0,000/. of new tax's had been created, so that there was a total diminution in the annual taxation within the last thirty five years of no less than 39,000,000L—(Hear, hear.) This was a result of which England had good reason to be proud, for no other country in the world could exhibit anything like a comparison with such a satisfactory statement. It should operate, moreover, as a lesson upon those out of doors, who were cla morous for a substitute of direct for indirect taxation, •tnd should show to them the advantages of a mixed system of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he must say that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding had been exceedingly ill supported. They had all heard of it long since, and that was to have been the night when the battle was to be fought. How had it been fought?—(Cheers and counter:cheers.) Why, the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly abandoned, apparently by all his friends.—(Cheers and ironical laughter.) Why, nobody rose to second him.—(Renewed laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had certainly manfully resisted the motion. He (Mr. Herries) wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had re sisted it more firmly—still he had resisted it, and that was something. The Hon. Member for Montrose did not tackle to the motion at all ; he had not stood by the motion. He (Mr. Herries) was for reduction if you could make it ; he was quite ready to go with the Hon. Member for the West Riding, if he would go step by step, and take precautions, but he could not believe that the Hon. Member was earnest in making this motion. — (Hear, hear.) lie did not think that the Hon. Member for the West Riding anticipated any success from this motion. _ _ Mr. COBDEN—Wait; wait a little. Mr. HERRIES—He hoped they would come to the discussion of these estimates in a different spirit; that there would be au earnest desire to effect the utmost possible reduction—(Hear, hear)—that there would be no thought or wish to take one single step that might not be conducive to that end, that might diminish the strength of this empire, or impose on the military ser- Tants of the country heavier burdens than they now bore, should they be called on to do the same work with diminished numbers.—(Hear, hear.) With agitation he would not go a single step—agitation, founded on pre tended grievances without reality, and directed in op position to classes who deserved not, either for their conduct past or present, the obloquy and invective which the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and those who acted with him, had too frequently employed.—(Hear, hear.) Lot not Hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Minis terial side of the House impute to those who sat on the Opposition any disposition to repudiate economy. With respect to local burdens, he thought the Hon. Member who introduced the present motion had been guilty of exaggeration, for he spoke of the expenditure for the relief of the poor being 8,000,0001. Mr. COBDEN—I said that the money expended for the relief of the poor, including Ireland, amounted to 8,300,000/. _ _ _ Mr. HERIIIES—But in making a comparison with the year 1835, it should be borne in mind that there was no Irish poor-law then. He was, however, glad to find that the Hon. Member was sensible that there ex isted a great pressure from local taxation.—(Bear, hear.) They had been told that the aspect of public affairs now enabled great reductions to be made; but when the last estimates were under discussion, the Noble Lord had adverted to the circumstance that they were made up prior to the convulsions which had disturbed Europe. Such being the case, he was bound to say that the pre sent state of things, though he hoped that affairs might take the most favourable turn, should induce the great est caution before the strength of our forces was reduced. —(Hear, hear.) They had been told in most emphatic language, that in Ireland disaffection was not extin guished, and that there were reasons for fearing that the present distress in some parts of that country might possibly create disaffection beyond that which now ex isted. Such was the tenor of reports from the Poor-law Commissioners. Therefore he repeated that they should be careful how they diminished the public forces, who might yet, unfortunately, have duties thrown on them in addition to those which they at present had to perform, and which the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department had described as extremely onerous and severe.—(Hear, hear.) Ur. M. GIBSON thought it was not very consolatory to the landed interest to find the financial - leader of the agricultural party holding out such slender hopes of an, material reduction in the expenditure of the country, attempting to discourage those who had plans to offer— (Rear, hear)—and throwing some censure upon the Go vernment for the efforts even they were making to reduce that expenditure. Whatever was to be proposed in the nature of relief to the landed interest must have its foun dation upon a reduction of expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) It was agreeable enough to give a popular vote fur the repe :1 of this or that tax, but no man could give such a vote honestly unless prepared so to follow it up as to leave a surplus revenue to apply to that relief.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Duke had said, in another place, that the malt-tax was doomed ; but no one was justified in holding out any hope of relief to the tenant-farmers unless prepared to reduce the ex penditure in order to put such advantages within their reach. Did Hon. Gentlemen opposite mean to repudiate?—(" Hear," and a laugh.) Were they pre pared to put in jeopardy the public faith?—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) had com plained of the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden), for holding language of one kind in that House, and of another kind in public meetings, being decorous in the House, and violent and inflammatory at, Manchester; and it must be owned that it was natural for a - speaker to sympathise with his audience, and when addressing those who were apathetic upon the question of reducing public burdens he might feel a heavy weight—(A laugh)—while in ad dressing earnest and animated public meetings he might be drawn into some degree of enthusiasm. — (Laughter.) But it was surprising that the Right Hon. Gentleman should accuse the Honourable Member of what he termed democratic tendencies —using the word as one of reproach (though there was no reason why it should be so considered.) The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have laid down as a principle, that the fewer out of a people had pro perty the more conservative was the tendency; or, in other v..3rds, that the greater the number of paupers and destitute persons in a state in proportion to its popula tion, the safer its institutions were.—(Oh, oh.) That seemed to be the effect of his comment upon the state ment made respecting the division of property in France. —(Oh, oh.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that he did not know why the subject of local burdens was introduced; why, no part of those burdens could be transferred to the State--there could be no aid from the consolidated fund—except by reducing the expendi ture; and the greater the amount of local taxation in a country the stronger the claim to have the general go vernment carried on at a low rate of expense. He (Mr. Gibson) firmly believed that England, with the large por tion of the wants of society in it supplied by local taxation, might be the cheapest governed country in Europe, as far as the general expenses of Government went, and ad hi ring to our existing institutions.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to answer the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden), to dispute his facts, or to show (the onus protandi being upon the Right lion. Gentleman) that the augmentation of the expenditure by 10,000,0001. since 1835 was necessary; but ho had talked or some discrepancy, and of t 3,000,000/. instead of 10,000,000/. But, the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer amounted to this, that to make a re duction of 10.000,0001. would require a less diminution in the armament. than the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) proposed ; and whereas the Hon. Member said, that a great number of the augmentations of our warlike establishments and expenditure hat! been caused by special occasions which were passed away, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer not disputing that, supplied more of these specialties, and said that, having crested_ a e steam navy, the expenditure thereby caused wouol_.d forb brought to a close, and he spoke of . 2,3oo,cohoiitems, stores, packet-service, and steam navy, sada seuharacter, more or less of a temporary and and not to be continued as a part of t s hr i PerP. / r. Gibson) was penii; --ture of the country. In fact, lie.kai anent ex extremely sanguine that between r it would be managed and the Chancellor of the Exci,eque his Friend (Mr. Cobden) thut the expenditure, should t were allowed be reduced something like 10,000,0001., if the Govern time.— (Laughter.) Why it had There was a reduction of been done before, between 1827, or .thereabouts, and 1835. with 1835; when the 10,000;000/. in a few Fears ending g tions brought about by lowest plint public; but since then, the uneasinessw pressure bl i c b e ing withdrawn, _ 1 the profes aasndrea'' 'e of the the attention of the public t to the executive tioverament, wa y in additions to the establish sions had been dictating aid having their Cobden) had therefore ioents. The lion. Member . (Mr. only precedent and e xperience to back him, and was in viting t , a campaign which was succ ess f u l b efore. The Chance llor of the Exchequer, to begin with, said that he was going to make reductions now to the extent of 1,500,000/.; then there was 1,100,000/. for the Kafir war, which he said would not occur again ; here were 2,500,000/. out of the 10,000 3 0001 ; and he (Mr. Gibson) did nut despair at all. He was very sanguine as to re ducing our military establishments much further, espe cially when he saw how very much men of great autho rity and station and experience in public affairs differed as to the amount of force necessary to be kept to secure the safety of the kingdom, for the contrariety gave Tea l sbn to hope that there was no settled principle,' and that it was merely a kind of haphazard - yielding -to the Oriireasiona - that caused the — expenditure•to rise till the - public complained. The Duke of Wellington- wrote a celebrated letter calling fot very 'large additiourto our being, I am happy tr Afty„a surplus of 370,0001., exceed An HoN. MEDIBER--How much for corn? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The amount received from corn is 780,0001. The custom , revenue for the year ending Jan. 5, 1849, exclusive of corn, is higher than the income which I expected to re ceive from the customs for the year ending the sth April, 1849—(Hear, hear)—therefore it is most satisfactory for me to be able to make this statement to the House. I disagree in the principle laid down by the Hon. Mem ber, that I ought to be prepared to make a full financial statement at this period cf the session; but I think that the statement I have just made ought to be most satis factory to the House. I shall, no doubt, lose a small in come in the course of the year by the cessation of the corn duties. I shall also lose those extraordinary sources of income of which I have availed myself last year — namely, the appropriations in aid and the China money; but, nevertheless, making full allowance for the whole, I still anticipate a surplus. I reckon a loss of 700,000/. from corn. In all probability there will be some re ceipts from this source. Assuming the losses to amount altogether to 1,360,0001., I have yet to remind the House that the propostd reductions in the estimates, comparing this year with last, will amount to 1,447,0001., 30 that there will still be a balance in my favour between the income and expeniiture.— (Hear, hear.) The income of this year will be better than that of last year. And, unless lam greatly disap pointed in my expectatidns, the expenditure will be clearly within the income. I cannot, however, with any degree of accuracy state now the actual amount which I anticipated I should have over, but looking to the income, upon which I confidently rely, I feel perfectly assured that it will be fully equal to the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) I can only say that I hope I have now convinced the House of two things—first, that it would not be safe nor wise to reduce the expenditure at once or immedi ately to the amount proposed; and, second, I hope I have also shown that we aro not unmindful of the neces aity of such reductions as are consistent with the real interests and development of all the industrial resources of the country. I hope that th e H ouse w ill express an opinion upon this question, w hi c h I trust w ill b e d u ly submitted to its consideration in the mode it has been brought forward. I hope that, as far as lam concerned, I have met it fairly. And I have also to express a hope that the House will pronounce a clear and decided opinion that it is not consistent with the real interests of the country to effect such an amount of reduction as has been proposed.—(Bear, hear.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL had waited some minutes after the Right Hon. Gentleman had sat down in order that those Hon. Members who took a more immediate in terest in the question might have an opportunity of ad dressing the House, and of adding anything they could to the very able, lucid, and convincing statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He expressed his surprise that no more distinct reference had been mad e to t h e case o f Ireland in connexion with this subject, when it was per fectly clear that Ireland had much] to do with the finan cial ;question now exciting such vivid attention in all quarters. He had no hesitation in declarin g hi s con viction, for instance, that had anything like j us ti ce b een done to that country, two-thirds of the enormous outlay there for army, constabulary , and political prosecutions, would have been saved. The army in Ireland, even in ordinary years, cost this country 1 ,100,0001. per annum, and last year, of course , very much more. The police expenditure, also, was most heavy ; the cost of political prosecutions extremely onerous. Let Ireland be treated with common fairness, with the barest justice, and the necessity for these classes of expenditure would almost entirely disappear. Hence would accrue at once a most important financial reformation. Again, while England paid to the customs, stamps, and postage de partments of revenue twenty-spven millions a year, Ire land contributed but three millions; yet the rate of taxa tion in both countries was alike, and the population of Ireland was one-third that of England. Why, then, this enormous difference in the amount respectively contri buted to the State? Simply because the Irish peopl e were kept in so impoverished a condition that they bad not the means of purchasing customable articles, and had no occasion for the use of stamps in the same way that England had. Let them but be properly treated; let them but have the opportunity of attaining proportionate prosperity; and in proportion of their numbers they would spend as much as England: with this result, that instead of contributing to the common revenue only three millions, they would contribute nine millions, besides being in a position to bear their fair share of the income tax.—(Hear, hear.) Sir DE LACY EVANS felt it necssary to say a few words, as some professional observations had been made by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cobden). He would, in the first place, observe that the Right Hon. Gentleman had pointed out some considerable discrepancies in the statements that had been made with respect to the army, navy, and ordnance—he had shown that the increase had not been 10,000,0004 in the fourteen years since 1835, but 6,000,0001. ; that, certainly, was a slight flaw in the Hon. Gentleman's budget, although he (Sir De Lacy Evans) was by no means unfavourable to the lion. Gentleman's exertions in favour of economy. He thought, however, that he had only done his cause some harm by indulging in personal attacks, because he did not see why a reduction of the naval and military departments of the country might not be discussed and reduced to the lowest possible point without the introduc tion of any personal or offensive expressions. He had read in the papers observations made by the Hon. Gentleman and his friends in various places by no means flattering to the members of the profession. He would remind the Hon. Member, however, that it was the fault of indivi dual members of these professions that the expenditure had been increased. It was the fault of that House, and he believed that no army or navy in the world could re sign itself with greater obedience to the civil o rd ers o f the Legislature than the British army and navy. He thought the Hon. Gentleman would find it very difficult to prove that the general officers of the army had any thing to do with the rewards and decorations which they received. They had done their duty, and he thought none in that House would deny them their rewards. — (Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the clothing of the army, and had called them a set of tailors.—(Loud laughter.) He did not complain of that on the part of the general officers, but on ap count of the tailors.—(Renewed laughter.) He had the honour of representing many hundreds, and they were as loyal subjects and as good supporters of economy as the Hon. Gentleman himself. And with regard to economy, he would say that ho doubted very much whether any would be obtained by the alteration of the present system. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken about hired ,mercenaries, and of marauding ves sels on the coast of Spain. These charges had bean frequently made, and he had always treated them with the contempt they merited. The body of troops to which he referred had served under the sanction of the Government and for the promotion of a policy which was said to be most essential to the interests of that country. He thought they should, under these circum stances, be exempted from these reproachful expres sions. He acknowledged that they had received remu neration, and he thought they had deserved it. He con gratulated the Hon. Gentleman on having received very good remuneration himself.—(Elear.) He did not mean to reproach him with it, because be thought such observations on either side were both contemptible and unworthy.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME was surprised at the introduction by his Hon. and Gallant Friend of such subjects into the dis cussion. His lion. Friend had made no personal reflec tions, anti was merely finding fault with the practice of sending British ships at th e expense o f th a t country to Spain, and the charge o f marauding was no t applied to any individual officer connected with that expedition, but to the Government who sanctioned it. He believed no men could have behaved better than the military and the squadron employed on th e coast of Spa i n , and nobody, unless instigated by the most malignant feelings, could suppose his lion. Friend capable of making personal attacks. The charge was made against the Government. lie had pointed out that the increase of the army and navy had arisen from this system of interference with the affairs of other countries. There was mo ttling in which he perfectly agreed with his Ho nourable and Gallant Friend, and that was that it was all the fault of the House of Commons and the House of Lords; and he was prepared further to prove that a vast portion of the expenditure authorised by them was pertectly unnecessary. The (louse was the trustee of the public money, and should take better care of it. Ho would read to th e House an extract from a report of a Committee appointed on the 29th of March, 1817, which was gra n t e d on t h e mo tion of Lord Castle reagh, and he believed there were only four individuals now in the House who belonged to that Committee. No fewer than thirteen reports upon this subject had been made to the House, and in the second of them, which was made in 1817—the Committee was presided Over, he believed, by Sir F. Lewis--they called the at tention of the House to the large naval and military es tablishments o f t h e countr y when there was every pros pect of a long continuance of peace; and they recommended that those establishments should be reduced in order that the people might be relie ve d f rom w h a t they considered to be un due taxation. Why should five or six persons be employed to do one man's work? No pers on posses sing co mmon sense wou ld keep six coachmen wh en one would ans wer his purpose as well ; and he main tained that it was the duty of the Government, as public and paid servants, to employ only that number of per sons whose services were absolutely necessary for the transaction of the business of the country. It m us t b e evident to e ver y p e rson who paid attention to public affairs, th a t th e s y s t e m of promotion in the army had invariably been kept up by aristocratic influence. Upon a recent o ccas i on h e h a d referred to official documents in order to show that 1,e23 officers had been retained with rank and pay in the army at an annual expense of 127,0001., solely for the purpose of placing in the hands of the Government the power of grantin g promot i ons Colonial es t a bli s h men ts upon an enormou s sca l e were also kept u p, w i t h t h e same viers ; but h e would not, on the pr esent occasion, e nter into any details respecting them. He must, however , express his regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not been ena bl e d to bring th e p u bli c ex p en diture within the r evenue b y a smaller ern nint than 80 0 , 000 / . dur ing the last year. The deficiency this year was 800,0001., aiid that on the sth of April, 1848, was upwarde of 2,000,0004; but, iu his opinion, a greater amo unt m.:ght have been save d if' t h e Government had used duo and fair diligence. It had been said that a great reduction in taxation had been made. True, the people's taxes had been in some degree reduced, but they still had a claim for a further reduc tion of them. They had no right to be satisfied with the present state of affairs. In 1837 th e y paid 50,000,000/. f u r taxes; in 1838, 51,00 0,0004; in 1839, 5 1,000,0001.; in 1840,52,000,0001.; in 1841, 52,000,0004 ; , in 1842, 56,000,000 i; in 1843, 56,000,0 00 4 ; i n 1844, 1845, 57. 000 000/. 58,000,000/. ; in ; and in 1846, , 58,000,000/. Thus it would be seen that taxation had been increasing, and the people had a right to ask relief from its great pressure. Tao House hal been told that the people of England wore less taxed than the people ~ of Franco, and of ' 6 7; military expenditure; he proposed (for everybody seemed to have an inclination to go back to some stan dard) that the stores should be compared with what there was in 1804, adding--" I have taken 1804 as the standard, as that was the year in which the invasion was threatened; it was previous to the employment of the armies in the Peninsula and North America; in short, as nearly as possible similar to the political circum stances in which we stand at this moment; excepting that we arc now at peace with France, we were then at war."—(A laugh.) In 1845 the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-office complained that no country in Europe was in such a defenceless state as England; the Right ion. Gentleman then at the head of the Govern ment thought otherwise. These things almost made one suspect that this was a party question, and thought a good card for gentlemen in opposition to play.—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) But it was perplexing to any one who, having no professional skid, really desired a guide. But with regard to the armaments of 1835, if they Wf"T 0 so inadequate, and the stores reduced so low as was al leged, how was it that Sir Thomas Hardy, one of the . most distinguished men ever connected with the British navy, put his hand as Lord of the Admiralty to all those stimates, and was a consenting party to placing the dockyard- in what was now describ4d by the Secretary to the Admiralty as a state of destitution? When the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) left the Admi ralty in 1834, he left (as it was stated in the evidence before last year's Committee) a memorandum as to the amount of force he considered necessary for the safety of the country; and it seemed that he judged half the present naval force sufficient.—(Hear, hear.) If the stores were so unduly reduced, how was it that the first estimate of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and the Duke of Wellington in 1835 proposed 1,000 men less for the navy than were left by Sir James Graham, and a less vote for stores by nearly 100,0001.?—(Hear.) A Gallant Admiral (Bowles) stated in his evidence that even our present naval force was not adequate, and that every man whose opinion was worth anything knew it was nothing like what it ought to be. The Right Hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty asked him —and there was a great deal sometimes in a question— " Did you ever know a time when the profession was satisfied with the existing force?"—(Laughter.) He should like to ask what, supposing their force was doubled, they should do with it? 'What did they do with the large force they now had? He found, from a return laid betore the Committee, that last year there were 31 ships, with 8,337 men, in the Mediterranean Sea; and he wanted to know what object connected with our interests was effected by that armament?—(Hear, hear.) Did the knowledge that we had so many line-of-battle ships in the Mediterranean enable our merchant ships to enter any foreign port in better condition than the ships of other countries?—(Hear, hesr.) Did they enter any port of Italy or France in better condition than the ships of Hamburgh, or Sweden, or Bremen, or the United States of America?—(Hear, hear.) Did this parade of armaments in the Mediterranean Sea protect our ships from piracy? Were there, in point of tact, any pirates there? He believed not—(Hear, hear)—but, supposing there were, our great line-of-battle ships were wholly incapable of going into all the creeks an d crann i es to which pirates had resort, and would not be of the slightest advantage to the small class of shipping ex posed to the attacks of pirates.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was it true, or not, that the existence of this large fleet in the Mediterranean Sea was the cause of the in crease in the French navy, and did goad on the French to increased exertion to put their naval force on a more effective footing?—(Hear, hear.) In the Pacific, and on the south-east coast of America, which, though formerly divided, now formed one station, there were 26 ships, and upwards of 4,200 men; but what were they kept there for? The late First Lord of the Admiralty stated in his evidence before the Committee that if the Mexican war was over, end if this question and that other question were settled, he did not see why the force in the Pacific could not be reduced to what it was in 1835.—(Hear.) That was just the proposition, to a cer tain extent, of the Hon. Member for the West Riding. The late First Lord of the Admiralty said that when the circumstances which caused the increase had passed away, the armaments should be reduced. So said the Hon. Member for the West Riding; and, so far as he could judge, so said common sense.—(Hear, hear.) What circumstances, he asked, were likely to occur to endanger British trade and British interests in that part of the world? Was Chili or Peru going to make war upon them?—(Hear, hear.) He did not know of any country in the world that had a force equal to that possessed by this country in those seas.—[Admiral Dun das here made an observation that was inaudible in the gallery.] He knew nothing about the French force now, but he knew that last year there was no foreign force adequate to our own in those seas. Even, how ever, had it been otherwise, he would not be of opinion that this country ought to keep up a costly armament because France or some other nation had done so.— (Hear.) When they found their trade interfered with, or threatened, it was time enough to send a squadron in its defence; but do not die from fear of death—(hear, hear)—do not in a time of peace keep up an expendi ture as disastrous as if war itself were experienced.-- (Hear, hear.) They had heard a great deal about regu lating their force by foreign nations, and that they should keep up as large an amount of men and ships as France and other countries did. There were some specu lative apprehensions lest foreign armaments should be used for the purpose of some sudden attacks, and it was said we ought to be prepared to meet them. Now, just compare the number of our officers with those of Franca and America, the two countries they were so often called upon to copy. He found from the French navy list that they had one:full adaairal,while in England there were 31; in France there were 10 vice -admirals, in England 45; in France 26 rear-admirals, in England 72; in France 160 captains, in England 554; in France 200 com manders, in England 87G; in France 600 lieutenants, in England 2,353: so that there were 031 officers to take care of the navy, while in England they had 8,931. Then, as regarded the United States, he found that they did not keep a single admiral—(Hear, hear)—while England had 1.50, besides those on the retired list; and there were in America only 67 captains, 47 commanders, and 327 lieutenants.—(Hear, hoar.) He must say he was perfectly at a loss to understand why the Govern ment, when they were making reductions, should confine themselves exclusively to the reduction of men.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not see why they should not keep what forces they had in good plight, and why regiments and ships that were retained should not be perfect of their kind.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see the necessity for having the same number of ships in commission, or the same number of regiments that they now had. He thought that, by getting quit of some of these, they might greatly reduce their expenditure ; but this could not be effected to anything like the same extent by merely reducing the number of men.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Herries) had taunted his side of the House with backward llf!Si in supporting the proposal of his Bon. Friend the Member for the West Riding ; but he felt bound to tell him that he supported his Hon. Friend's motion most cordially, and that he did not re gard it as wild and visionary. He did not expect to carry his olject to-day, or this year.—(A laugh.) His Hon. Friend had not asked them to do so.—("Oh, oh!" But ho had asked them to declare that their present expenditure was excessive, that the amount of taxation impeded the operations of agriculture and commerce, and that they ought to reduce the annual expenditure as soon as practicable.—(A laugh.) He believed that the present financial condition of the country, in refer ence to its safety from foreign dangers, was one that re quired the deepest consideration, and he asked, if at any former period, when they were called upon to make a great national effort, they could have done so with an annual expenditure of 60,000,0001. ?—(Hear.) In 1793, when it was found necessary, the country did make an effort; but were they sure, now that the Reform Bill was passed, that the people of this country would provide them with an addition to the great amount of' taxation they now paid, in order to make one of those great national efforts ?—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the commer cial strength of the country was more important to its safety than the mere strength of its armaments.— (Hear, hear.) He believed that the knowledge on the part of foreign countries that our finances were in a prosperous condition, and that our taxation was not wound up to the highest pitch, would do more to prevent them from invading our territories or interfering with our colonies and trade than any mere demonstration of' the number of ships in cemmission or of the number of regiments on service. —(Hear, hear.) When foreigners saw so many ships and regiments, they were apt to say , : Never mind; th e y are taxe d so h eav ily that theyga boar no more; they can ' t fi g h t, i t ' s a ll a mere s ham. our post (Hear, hear, and " Oh, o h !") Th a t was, in ta ct, t he feeling tion.—(Oh, oh !) Ile believed such N t o o , 8,000,004 throughout Europe at this moment‘..--a Would Hon. Gentlemen say thr!t,,a. n b y any lion. Gentleman was nothing?—(Hear.) weu 1 5 ,3 en o and cheers.) Protectionist Members that l as t year an addition or universally refused—, say, with the recollectionn 4ax 2aye, per and cent. b y t o th the in Conservativeeoh p e ople of this country Would too—that he expected tion?—(llear, hear.) Th submit to increased taxation?—( as in former times; _ e t i h r epockets of the hey were people to ' e and wal and, it bowed them them to husband resources in time of peace to man future navies fructify n there, and by so doing produce more merchant o o t v t o i I n c atvhee money P osition o sailors moresame (flear, hear)—to leave money in People's pockets that ships and more merchant would give more manufactures and more steana-engines to the country. — (ilear, he ar .) If they exhausted the me ans and energies of the people in time of peace they prevented them in time of war from being able to give that assistance which otherwise they would be so well able to confer. Much was said of dockyards, and what) they could do fur ui; but they never heard of what conld be done by private manufacturers towards making a. great national effort.—(Hear, hear.) He so much relied upon what could be dove by means of private munufac. turers, that if he wanted a i.team-frigate for speedy ser vice he would rather have it built in a private manufae t)ry than in any of the dockyards.—(llear, hear.) In stead, however, of depending upon estivate enterprize, they had gone.. on building war-steamers far beyond what existed in any foreign country, and at this moment they had is greater number, large and small, than was pos sessed by any other country in the world. Not only so, but they had at the same time kept up the number of their sailing ships. Ile called upon the Hou7o then, before they treated lightly the proposition of his Hon. Friends to recollect that all measures taken up on a large and comprehensive scale were generally met its the first in stance as visiona r y. He hoped, connected as he Mrs with the agricultural party—(A laugh)—that t!iley would not turn their backs on the proposal. brat that they would regard it as one which would ttP.imately lead to the common welfare of all chases cf the coins triunity,—(Cheers.) Mr. G. BERKELEY said Sir T. Hal* was not in the Admiralty in 1835, as bad been stated by the Ron. Gentleman. s Mr. GIBSON had stated= that - Sir T. Rand y urs in the Admiralty w h e n Sir J. Graham was th ere; i net he left it in 1834, and was privy to all 404 p .uc i d t . " -- ons ' •