The Sun. — London, England, 1819-11-25 00:00:00

~ d : 1 'rinCe 00 t 11, t . vorilo that !el 0 0 Is bad or to n r ...... [ ( lre?, . that e ar rsotis . _ piled cr to ~jccfl . litary wO3 3tifie(! i tyof if clic sir 11 01 s k O f tit (301 w 41° it the !sent' love AG' 1,,,a A :lie <He r .,.'f~ fait Witt' as " j:O 7 , 0! , 4 :dA ° ot 4 s co• ;110 1111e0 ~i{ +~d~ tig e 1 1/ . 116 ,et . CI rt • i ) „ 111 were (RS 16 011 stea l car' ugh! t; Il e' not rjoi) , s ere p ti y- nies;l cenfess that he could not see the '1 1 ""' of those who were content to vote for the 4 I. ess, and at - the salve time to tack to it the e ti l e ndment which had been proposed. The YeB of the whole country were on the House Of r , ‘-ornmons that night, and with what just l e i el ings of ridicule might it not be expected t4 ' e Y would receive its decisions, were they go forth in the shape of ,the present Address, 'lilted with such an Amendment. What,indeed, "I have a more ridiculous appearance, than tlr lt th e very men—those Whigs, who had stood it,' the same hustings with the Radical leaders, "K log to them for protection, and trembling p ) r 4 hearing, whi c h they obtained only through eir interosition, should now pledge theft t e . 4 es in th e mann er they do in their Address.— 1 „ li e Hoe. Beronet opposi'e recommends that we s "'ll(' conc ili ate w i t h t h ese w hi te -h atte d gen t r y : Deal kindly with the people," says he, " they eft ' -- they li w ill li sten to y our expostela:ions."— Q t" Caine the Whi g s to let slip the golden op -4.°ltuoity which offered itself when they met their t e w allies in friendly converse at York ?—(A iaugh.)—Was it to convince them of their iire- I nebl e error that those great minded persons : 1 4 `eo employed their time ?—No ; they debate i" on the necessity of an Address to the rhroue, to convene t h e P ar li a ment six weeks er rne its present period, at that time having knowledge that its mt-eting was determined f ° "•—(Cries of " No.")—lf such wee not the et, it m us t h a v e be en owing to the failure of the rith lie Newspapers thqt contained that intelli 4enee iu reaching York in due course. Alholing t o the Manchester business, he said that he was -Rtstified to find, that during two nighte . debates on the b i • t.Ct . , no l a %!r -o ef - yet been fount! who ' "'I denied that the meeting was illegal. If any 1 5 t :Vyer, th en , were holding, and at the same time such an opinion, he could only say j j ,l hitt , as he had said of the Whigs at York, that h e heti lost a golden opportunity.—(A latigh.)- 41tIore the meeting of Parliament, it was flatly ex trlordieery w h e t. vaeror. misiutormatlCMS had e t"ne it had h e ppened to him to receive :° l on , h o r 6 weeks of n ews papers up to the pie rnt dete, contaiiiing the daily diatribes which been witted on the subject (hiring that pe lb"1; anti never did he peruse such a tissue of ta bricathses.—(ile.r!)—The first thine he inet with 43 a hroad assertioe the all the Manchester Ma •-orates were Master Menufacturers. it hap itned that he had some connexion with that part the Country, which enabled him to affirm that ` i tlrever .poesible it might be to find in other t f 'imti es Master Manufacturers in the Commission of th e Peace, that was a thing never to be met with Lancashire; and so notorious was this, th at b e „ w on answer for it there was not a Len e4sltire roan to b e f oun d in any pert of the king t"ll typo did not know that it was a rule not 1 ,, 1 1 put in the Commissien of the Peace any "`ter Menutactiner, This, to be sure, had i! e eked- a tardy ackitowle:lvnent; but the pub c at the same tulle were called upon to ! q tnowledge that " the argument founded on `▪ vas, at least, very good." A' the York Z.Leeting, a respectable Gentleman came forward 41 1(4 a statement, that the sabres of the Yeo- W e nry had been sharpened prior to the Meeting. - atlinioed that he did node the a•sertion as 1 )(41 as possible ; i sle . meaim the York Reso iljticlus had-been p All who voted then for Cl"itv, did so tiuder the idea of au infuriated cutting down his tenant with a sharpened Many other stories of a similarly unfound • nature were recapitulated by the Right Hon. ;ntirman, and it was under the influence of such a orte at ,„,, s , which, when pushed home and tr te! h y the tests of name and date, were found 411'tritiog, that most of the Resolntions through- I ." th e country h a d passed. Undoubtedly 4 1v es. hail been lost, and he yielded to none in ploring ell (het had °m are(' on the 16th of - ;: ti gest, at Manchester . He knew that if it were -te led on one side of the House that one hundred °then and children lad been slain on any one :reasion, and that lie should rectify the statement, '"1 say, that there were only six, it would he re un hint. The barbarian, only six ! &e. "ese tricks, he could assure Gentlemen, had •, ( 1 )1 4.; ben brought to light. G , ntlenten had learnt b l t ' i t . lessons -well ; they were the tricks of 11'93 I794—the tricks of Robespierre and of Me al ! The men we.were called upon to conciliate i, were then who created mischief for mischief 1 , 1 1 .1 "---teen who aimed at agitating society with il 'oen s whi c h th e y had no hope of governing, and midst of which they did not even expect to l 'e at lib erty . 'Die most whimsiCal of all rea s ref's had b een se t f ort h res p e cting the propriety of :dt House making an inquiry into the nches , P,if-iirs. Previous to the speech of an Hon. 8ar0,;," ,;," (vp.site ; it' was argued that it was on account its ;;rest importance, that the Courts of Law t*ere. nOt competent to their examinatien; bait after th lioti Baronet's speech it was argued that it s extraordinary minuteness which demanded e !oquisitorial interference of Parliament. Thus, that House was expected to be like an de p:lnt's proboscis, expanding for the purpose of t , as l'ing large objects, and contracting in order tee on smaller ones. He admitted, and even :ntended that -justice ought to be strictly ad enet .•stered between man and man. In former I(4 es and in other.comitries, favour and affection mere shown to the higher, in preference to the I)F 4 'cr clas ses o f soc i e ty ; now , h o wever, by one those oscillations Of the human mind so fre t 11"11 no other subjects, the presumption seemed tZilltevail in favour of the lower, over the higher i n ,: s 's• He hv. no means blamed . this feel s'4 but i t oug ht not to b e. a llowed to ope t„e Whe n ' t h e case o f an y o f t h e higher- classes 1v 4 1 3 - brought directly under judicial. consideration. t ot ' 4 t wo u ld b e t h e ki n d o f e v e n j u stice shown to h• parties if the proposed Amendment were .itl ? Those who. wished to set the country irit - a blaze would be allowed to traverse, to be r ah at their own time; to be tried on evidence en oath. Those who endeavoured' to ex alg:iish the flame must .take their trial immedi ), wit h no challenge, and on evidence-unsanc 4te- ie , (l by uatli.—(Hear, bear, hear !)—Suppose j'ailagistrates were acquitted -by the House, j. 1. 81 they he sa v e d from a prosecution in a Court ty 41 ' nee? o. Suppose they were fonnd guilty e Uouse, would they tbo. be saved fpin prosecution ia <^ loam of ? No. He di not attribute to the Right Hon. Gentleman any such intention, butif the whiteahatted'geatry had pro posed the Amendment, he should suspect they had a double game in view. If they surprised the House into a decision against the Magistrates, they would indulge their vengeance. If, on the contrary, the majority acquitted the Magistrates, they would have a new fund of clamour against the House .of Commons—(Hear, hear !)—They would either crush their enemies, or undermine the Constitution. The Hon. BarOnet, who . was the only person who hail not spoken of the atro cities of the individuals in qaestion as they deserved, 4 , ad talked of the flags, Btca as mere matter of pa rade. But who was so blind as not to know that ribbons and devices teed ently indicated a purpose as unequivocally as words ? Some years ago, it was a matter of complaint that in Ireland orange cockades were worn as adistinction of party. Would it have been any answer to say, " What signiF s i a yel low ribbon ?" Did any rational man that the flags of the Manchester Meeting meant defiance ? The inscription of " Universal Suf frage or Death" distinctly meant that those dis playing it were determined to have-a Reform in- Compatible with the spirit of the Constitution, even should they purchase it with their blood: Coalrl that be called a legal meeting ? Was it common sense to call it so ? He would appeal to the Whigs on the subject. He would appeal even to Whiggissimus.—(A langh.)—He would ask him, whether if, in 17;5, 100,000 men bad assembled with white roses in their hats, and with flags bearing the inscription " Legitimate Monarchy" ; and if any unfortunate Tory haul stood up in Parliament, and had protested that all that meant nothing, that white Was not a colour— (a laugh,)—and that " Legitimate Monarchy" re ferred to the family which hail been just established on the Throne, he would not have been scooted, and the Whigs of that day would not have passed a law at least as strong as the Riot Act.—(Hear !) He would abstain from entering into the details of what had passed at Manchester, first, because they had hen often stated to ihe House ; se condly, because he could only relate that which he derived horn other sources ; and, thirdly, be cause the suniect was 3 :,kit to und,rgo an laves tigation in a Co'urt of Law. But he could OM help adverting to what 11. , i1 talleat from. an Hon. Gentleman, who had .availed himself of a short- h a nd report of an unfinished law proceeding, to malie some observations on that proceeding which in his (Mr. Canning's) opinion %vete wholly un warrantable. He! was as warm a friend to liberty as any man ;- but he always deemed one of the first elements of liberty to be the careful se paration of the administrative and the judicial functions. - He could not but conceive that it must strike foreigners with astonishment to observe, that we allowed the wide and the sate gnard of our Constitntion,the invaluable insti tutions of Juries and an unpaid. Magistracy,—to be degraded wills impunity ; and that, as if re /ion:icing the high station we had long held in Europe, we warned those who had followed us in viccoly not to imitate its in our civil establish ments. From the moment that peace was/con cluded we had been busy in decrying .our popular Legislature. and we were now preparing to cast an odium on our Magistracy and lOyal Tribunals.. It had been well said by Goldsmith— " Princes and Lords may flourish or may fade, A breath can make them as a breath has made; But a timid peasantry, their country's pride, When once destroyed, can never be supplied." So, said he, of that invaluable part of our Munici pal Institution, the unpaid Magistracy. He did not dread the inroads which the Reformers threatened to make on the House of Commons with half the horror that he did the tendency to disparage that voluntary sacrifice of time and at tention ; that homage of wealth and power, to the interests of the humble and the needy ; that tribute to the general good which could in no other way be so effectually paid. A new House of Commons might be elected—the Sovereign might create new Peers—new Statesmen be educated, but once destroy the voluntary Magistracy of the country, by making their burden too heavy, and their duties too odious to be borne ; and by that single act more would be done ta destroy the very foun dations of society than could be effected by all the declarations of the Reformers, and their pikes into the 4argain. The Hon. Baronet opposite had adjured the House to consider the necessity of conciliatin! , the people. If by conciliation was merely meant a sympathy with their distresses, he could asenre rile Hon. Baronet that no mail could feel more deeply for ,those distresses than his colleagues and himself. But by conciliation he apprehended that the Hon. Baronet meant concession on the subject of Parliamentary Re form. On that subject the Hon. Baronet warned hint to re-consider his opinion ; and the. Right Hop. Gentleman represented him as the very con verse of the Radicals in sentiment. He was not so blind end higotted a supporter of existing establishments as to maintain that they were the best of all possible institutions. But he was one who thought that the present machi nery of the House of Commons, with all its imperfections on its head, performed most be neficially for the country ; and that any change which was not very limited and very well con sidered, would be attended with great ha zard. He was not so absurd as to believe that some heaven-born Radical might not devise some plan of a plausible nature. But without know ing precisely what that plan was, he would object to any approach to Reform; because that would have the effect of weakening what existed, with out the previous provision of any effective substi tute. The advocates for Parliamentary Reform must mean either to restore or to re-construct. If to restore,• it was not unreasonable to ask to what golden period of our history they look ed for the form to' which they would return ? If to re -construct, it was not unreasonable to ask, on what, principles that operation was to be found riL? When he was told the time or the principles, he should then, and not till then, be qualified to give an opinion on the merits of any proposed plan. Even then he should be at liberty to com pare the dangers of a change with the advantages of the change. But he altogether differed from the Hon. Baronet• in supposing that Parliamen tary Reform was generally demanded by the peo. pie. Lie very much doubted whether it was re quired by any of the classes above the lowest, ex cept, perhaps, by some timid aid quietly dis posed persons, who were uotaught by expe rience, -that coocession to art invading enemy was not the ,way ro conclude peace with him. With the turbulent description of Reformers there ought to be no dallying or compromise. TO con ciliate them would he utterly hopeless. But, he repeated, he did not think the sound pdrt of the contort:tilt), infected by the love of change, for in the laoguage•of Burke, he would not take the chirping crickets in the field for the lordly oxen that strayed over its surface. lie must say, however, that if he admitted the premises of the Honourable Baronet, he must admit that his conclusion was more logical than that of the mo derate Reformers. The latter stated the exist ence of corruption as broadly as the Honourable Baronet. But the Honourable Baronet advised a new constitution of the House,, while the mode tame Bdormers were satisfied witb a small reme dy. If, however. he admitted the disease, he could not be satisfied with a small remedy. For his part, could by no means allow that the corruption was SllOl as it was represented by any class of Reformers. He said this disin terestedly ; for he was not aware that Go vernment would benefit were the Borough Re preseotation entirely abolished. It the Bo roughs of Knaresboroogh, of Tavistock, of Hors ham, of Winchelsea, of -Peterborough, were abolished, and the elective franchise were trans ferred to more populous places—to Birming ham, to Mauchrster, to Sheffitild, to Leeds— he did not believe that his Majesty's Ministers would lose any friends in that How e.—(A laugh.) —On the contrary, he hJieved that they %vilin receive more support than . at present. He should also regret very much if by such a measure the House were to be suddenly deprived of some of the great lights opposite to him —(A laugh.)— He argued this question without prejudice, with out passion, without personal interest. He th o ught now, as he always had thOoght, that the Consti tution of the House of Commons was pi actically beneficial to the Public. If, hoivever, he were asked to defend that opinion by showing why G5B was a better number than 659, or by any similar proposition, he confessed that he should be at a loss. It was the general character of the House which he regarded; and he maintained that it faithfully represented tine country, and kept pace in its measures, not precipitately, but deliberately, with the real wishes, opinions, and feelings of the nation; The Hon. Baronet bad alluded to other countries tvliieh had witnessed terrible ca tastrophes, and called upon tire Horse to be warned by these, not to refuse to conciliate the people. The French Revolution taught two les sons, the danger, of withholding concession too long, and the danger on the other baud of court ing a temporary popularity by tattering the pas sions of the people at the expeoce of their best interests. He called upon the House to perform the important duty which devolved on them at a crisis like the present by attending to the wishes of the loyal millions who nosy looked op to them for protection, and called upon them by the vi gour and derision of their Council's to save the Constitutiom. Mr. Bnotrunam strongly insisted on the neces sity of an inquiry, even for the vindicating of the Magistrates. He defended at great length the conduct of the Whig - Leaders and Earl Fitz'.vil ham. fie condemned the atteMpts recently made to spread impiety, and considered the result of the late trials for blasphemy to reflect immortal. 110 - nour on the Judge before whom they. took phce, on the Juries, and on the laws. The result was a triumph to the country. To him the present laws appeared sufficient to punish and repress such offences, but he complainer!, that for neatly three years a mass of matter had been puhiished with impunity, as disgusting and mischievous as the Genius of Treason, of Discoid, and of 'Crime, had ever .sent among a peaceable community. — Assassination, forgery, resistance to the tiovero ment, and treason, had been openly advocated, and punishment bad not followed. Fie cited some passages from a Catechism, in which n right to put the King to death was claimed. The first publications of this character ought to have been proceeded against, and this might have stopped tire pestiferous venom in its course. He wished the House might be oftener seen in a more amia ble light than it appeared in, when imposing bur dt-ins on the people. That it might be so was the last Wish of one who would rather fall the vic tim of anarchy, than live the survivor of tire Constitution. Mr. GLADSTONR attempted to speak, hut could not he heard for the cries of " Question," which resounded from all parts of the House. Mr. S. WORTLEY, Mr. BROUGHAM, and Mr. CANNING severally explained. The Honse then divided, For the Amendment ' 150 • Against it Majority in faveur of NliniLitet s ...-231. The Address, as.originally moved, was then agreed to, and the [louse adjourned at Five O'CLOCK THIS MORNING. FOR THE SUN. Nor. 4 23, 1319. The EDITOR of THE SUN is informed, in an swer to FLINT'S Query, in-Tule SUN of to night, that several years ago, Sir FRANCIS KINLOCH of Gilmerton, in . 'East Lothian, was unfortunately shot by his brother, who was acquitted, it being clearly proved that he was insane. There was no dispute about property; this unfortunate per son was allowed to go. at large, instead of being confined by the mistaken humanity of his brother. He succeeded to the Title and Estate, : and at his death, eight or ten years ago, by a younger brother since dead. The present Baronet is a minor. The Radical Mr. KINLOC4 appears to be a Gentleman of property in Forlarshire, and totally unconnected with the respectable family alluded' to. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS. PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE INTERNAL STATE OF TLIF, COUNTRY-, . • Presented yestcrdatt to loth Houses of Przrliamcnt, Lrt Com mand of his Ruyal Ilighness the PRI NCI.: REGENT. Kiows:ey, August 15, 1819. MY LORD—I conceive i to be my dirty to in form your Lotdship, that/kir) consequence of a re presentation made to me by the Select Committee Of Magistrates ,assembled at Manchester, (and perfectly agreeing with them in the expediency of the measure,) 1 issued a precept for a Spcciet Meeting of Magistrates, to consider of the pro priety Of a general or partial execution of the Watch and Ward Act, and I have now the ho nour to iticlose to your Lordship a letter from the Clerk of the Peace, by which you will perceive how tar the same has been carried into execut ion. I trust this and the other m::; sores adopted by the Magistracy, will pot a stop to the danger try be apprehended from the evil designs o such as wish to distmb the peace of the - country ; but E am sorry to add, there is still too much cause tp be here, that in some parts of this county, there are assemblies of tn , :n, who meet in considerable numbers, with the object of training end exer cising themselves for illegal and sedi ions pur poses. Or all this, however, your Lordship t 5 am sure already informed with more accura.ey, and in greater detail, than I am abie to give vou. It is vvi:h great regret that I obliged to add, that the raising the armed 'association (notwith strtordit:g the zealous endeavours of the Borough reeve and Committee at Manchester, wit() made the off.!tt to Goeeriment) proceeds so slow, that I have not yet been able to obtain a list of Gen-' tlemen to be submitted to the Pllnce argent as Officers for the same. I am, however, iuturined by the BorfroglireeVe, that the list of Fold Of fitters and Captains for one battalion hiss beers completed, but Ihry consider it piernatore to spid it to me, as the number of tun already enrolled-is far below the itil'Oher which Should CooNlitute 0/le battalion. I think it tight to apprise your Loid ship of this ciicuinstittice, but without` the most distant idea of irOpiring blame, or waot of zeal, to any person concerned in the transaction. '1 he - arms, &c. for nearly the whole corps have beets forwarded to my order from Chester Castle some time since, a . nd, with the cOncrirrenre of NI tr: General Bye g, I have directed them to be lodged at the Cavalty - Barracks, under the military cos. toffy of the Officer coinatanding there, the corps becomes sufficiently effective to have theta trensftrred ti their hands. ' I hrkve the honour to be; my Lord, our Lhrdship'i obedient h tile Servant, The Viscohtif Sidmouth, &e. &c. &e. • DERBY. Manchester, Aug. 15, 11 o'clock, p. m. MY LORD—The Magistrates„the Military, ancl Civil Authorities of Manchester, have been occu pied-nearly-the whole of this day in coucetting the necessary arrangements for the preservation of the peace to-morrow, and for the safety of the town in case a. riot ahould ensue. We have been much occupied in taking depositions from vations parts of the country ; and although the Magistrates, as at present. advised,, do:not think of preventing the rn,cting, yet all the accounts tend to show that the worst possible spirit pervades the country .; and that considerable numbers have been drilling to-day at distances of four, six, and ten miles from Manchesier ; and that considerable numbers are expected to attend the . Meeting. I hope. the peace may be preserved, but under all circumstances it is scarcely possible to expect it ; and, in short, in this respect we are in a stare of rrAnful uncertainty. 1 have the honour to be, my Lord, your Lordship's faithful - awi hnn:ltle Servant, To Lord Viscount Sidmouth, &c. J. NORMS. N7llcitester, 1616_ Aug. iBl9. 7 Quarter past Nine. i%v L:H10---.21ki. NORKIS being very much fa titied by the harassing duty of this day, it becomes Wipe now to inform your Lordship of Ore pro ceedings which have been had in cousequeoce of the proposal put forward for a meet tug. The Slyer cial Committee have been in constant attendance for the last three days, and contented themselves till they saw what the complexion of the meetiog might be, or what circumstances might arise, with coining to this deiermioation only, which they adopted in concurrence with .some of the most intelligent Gentlemen of the town, not to : . stop the numerous columns which were from va rious roads expected to pour in, but to allow them to reach the place of their destination. The assistance of the military was of course re quired, and arrangements in consequence made with them, of such description as might be ap plicable to various circumstances. Abdut eleven o'clock the Magistrates, ,who were very 11(1111C10115, repaired, to a house, whence they-might see the whole of the proceedings of the meeting. A hotly of special constables. took their ground, about 200 in number, close to the hustings; from them there was a line of comtnu nication to the house where we were. Air. ';af ford Trafford was so good as to take the situation of attending Colonel L'Estrange, the command ing officer. Frnm eleven till one o'clock;the various columns arrived, attended by flags, each by two or three flags ; and there were four, if not more, caps of liberty. The ensigns were of the same descrip tiOn as th6se displayed on similar occasions, eith this addition - , that one had. a bloody pike represented on it ; another, " Equal repre sentation or death." ! There] was no appear ance of arms or pikes, but great plenty of sticks anti staves, and every column marched in regular file's of three or four deep, attended..wich con ductors, mosic,'Stc.. The most powerful acces sion was in the las' instance, when Bunt and his party came in. But, long-before this, the ,Ma• gistrates had felt a decided conviction that- the whole bore the appearance of" insurrection ; that the array was such as to terrify all the King's.sub jects, and Was such as'no legitimate purpose could. justify. In addition to their own sense of the Meeting, they had very numerous depositions from the inhabitants, as to their fears for the public safety ; and at• length a man de. posed as to the parties who were approach in.. ", attended by the heaviest column. On a barouche-box leas a woman in white, who I believe . was aAlrs, Gant front Stockport, and