The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-08 00:00:00

P A it I, 1 A Al E N T. HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, Dec. 7. INDICTMENI"FRAVERSE BILL. The Order of the Day firing read for their Los d tibipssgains isito a'Corotnitiee . oo this Bill, the Earl of SHAFTESBURY took the Chair. (ie or, two Atn , ndmeots, apparently verbal, were agreed to, on the sugtestion of the LORD CB A Ncet.Loa.; and the Bill being gone through, the resumed, and olderrd the Report to be •,• • . • tectived •on I ttursda v. Lord HOLLAND presented a Petition from the. Lot tt M.,y*►r. Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of London, it: Cuntntt►n Council assem bled, against the Bills now pending, which, as the petitioners termed it, went to infringe the rights Nod liberties of the sul►ject.--The lieti rit,rt being read, it was ordered to lie on the SEIZURE OF ARMS, AN!) _TRAINING PREVENTION BILLS. I. 7 i9couto StDmouTH moved the Order of the Do; for the third reeding of the fist of these !Wk. Tile Earl of DARNLEY said, he did not mean to oppo,e the motion, as lie thought sonic degree of necessity existed tor a measure of the kind hut he thought that such a Bill should he tempo raly. and as lenien , in its provisions as the object woolil admit of. Viset , tllll SADNIOITTiI obset veil, it was his own desire that the li it ShOtilii, as tar as %vas consist ent wi.-h the object, procetti on such and attention was paid to the training it accord- A slight amendment was then introduced on the uf- h e Noble Secroasy State, aml being egteed ;0, the Bill was read a third time, and pa!sed. The Training Prevention Bill was then read the tlri►d tine. 01,41 passed. SEDITIOUS AND 111..-ISPEIENIOUS LIBELS. Their Lordships having resolved hut) a Com ini•tee on the Bill for the prevewioo of thole, A levv Anictithnents weie introduced on the [no tion of Viscount SIDMOLITH, of which the protni nent one appeared to he, !hat in cases of search for hooka, after the conviction for libel, tea pre- Dikes should be en'ered except those of the person named in the order. The Amendments were agreed to by the Com *nil tee, trod the Report was ordered to be received on Thursday, to which day their Lordships ad journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MR. OWEN'S PLAN. Sir W. CRBSPIGSY gave notice that he would, on Thursday, the 16 , h, suhn►it to the liouse, 1110 , ion nit the suhje,ct of the l'ian I►rul►osed by Mt. Ox‘ en. of Lanark. MALLIsON'S LIFE PRESERVER. Mr. XV. Smt - rn presented a Petition from Mr. the Inventor of the Life Pre,,erver, %vbieli he intmdliced, by stating that he consider d Ihe.iiiyetltion these; yin g of more Attention tlidti it li.rl hitherto met with. The Petiiion, which w.is lead, prayed for aid to enable Mr. Mallison oirry his invention into effeetl.—Ordered to lie on I.IIC table. Mr. if ottln.gave notice, that he would to-mor row move for certain Papers relative to the Royal Navy. •-• The Papers moved for on• a former night, re -14114 tO the -Pensions, Allowances, &c. by way of . enmpensation to persons belonging to.the Civil 'Department of the Army, were laid before the Tlonse front the Army Pay Office. Mr. LusniNG•roN brought in a Bill for con -tinning certain Dillies ow Malt, which was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading to ',morrow. " LONDON PUITION. The Sheriffs of the City of London presented a 'Petition - from the Common Council against the iucasores - pending in Pat liament, which vas read. .0n" the moving that it should be laid on the table, • Mr. Alderman WooD took occasion to express concurrence in the opinions it embodied, and to state his .iews on the subject. He was per suaded that the t alarm produced in the minds of many Gentlemen - was sustained by abserd state "nienrs ; and ridiculed the story of stones having been got together on the place of meeting at Manchestir. He wished something to be done 'to conciliate the people; but nothing was done 'either for that purpose, or to alleviate the dis fres,: that prevailed, or to .find employment for 'the induSttions poor. Nothing had been done for lrelatot, though it appeared in 1810 that six mil lions'of acres were lying uncultivated, (two mil- . lions and a half of which were capable of being amide immediately productive) anrf yet Parliament Fast Session, rather voted 50,0001. to send emi grants to Africa, than employed it to bring this waste in'o a eseful condition. He professed him• evil anxious for general investigation, Anil for such a Retorm as was indicated by au Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Lierubion's) notice. It was in vain to oppose this cour s e, for the peoplc.would have Reform ; and no other measures, though they might rttat d it by severity, could prevent that issue. It was equally in vain to lay taxes on the press, for if the people could riot buy publications c he a p, they would, as they did on the Continent, contrive to have the same doctrines from dearer periodicel works read to them. Mr: THORP tolloWeil on the stone side, but ex essed his satisfaction that the Seditious Meet iegs Mils had been made temporary. •He did not thiuk there was sufficient evidence before the House upOn which to found the measures pro poi, d, and was convinced with his worthy col league that the alarm which existed was exagge rated. otter a few words from Mr. Alderman WAITH MAN, the 'Petition was laid on the table, and °l de red to be printed. MAGISTRACY OF NORFOLK. Mr. Enmutin Wont HOUSB rose for the purpose of m aliiug a communication to the House on a sunitct conuectcd %vitt) Lord Suffield, the Loud Li iiieoato of the County of Not folk. He should abstaiu trum making any C0111111:11t upon the do cumenls ire wag going t o read, and ShotAd commence, as a matter of politic , ditty, by a le ter Wirich he had yesterdav,teceived from Lord Suffield. The lion. Member then read the follow ing letter : " Gunton, Dec. 4. " - Dear attr exceedingly obliged to you for your letter of yesterday, in reply to which I beg leave to say, _that I am not conscious of having acted with any partiality respecting the insertion of gentlemen in the Commission of the Peace, of which I think the Commission itself, with the additions made to it, affords pretty strong evidence. " I recollect to have had sonic conversation with Mr. Coke at General Money's, on the subject of the Commission, but am not aware of a promise on my part to insert any gentle men Mr. Coke might name; nor, bad I been so disposed, did Mr. Coke give me an opportunity, for I hever had the honour of receiving an application from him to that effect; and a list of names sent by Mr. Coke to the Clerk of the Peace, even sopine , ing such a list to have been sent, could not he consiJerill by use in that point of view. " In reference to Mr. Coke's assertion, that gentlemen have been added to the Commission by the Loral Chancellor iu conseysence of my refusal, 1 believe the statement to be absolotely erroneous, and that no such circumstance has taktn place since I have had the; honour of being LieutenaAt • of Norfolk. " I think both yourself and Colonel Workhouse can vouch for my impa►tiality, as I have certainly declined some appli rations (ruin both of you, when it oli:1 not appear to me there was a want of Magistrates, or fur other reasons. " I am, dear Wodehouse, yours faithfully, " SUFFIELD." tie ruccived this cowmen , ' ation yesterday, and had intended to have hid it befo-e the [louse last night, had not certain circumstances prevented In the interval, he had an interview vs•itli the Loill Chancellor, vvho had informed him, th;it lie had no recollection of the circumstances to which his Ilon. colleague (Mr. Coke) bad on a former night alluded. Since that period he bad Jet - dyed the following letter from his Lotdshtil► : " Pear Sir---,The assistance with which' the Chancellor is favoured by the Custodes Rotulorum, in selecting persons to be placed in the Commission of the Peace in different coun ties, of whose qualifications he cannot have personal know ledge. has established a habit of the Chancellor's placing in the Commission Gentlemen recommenjed by them. But this is mere recommendation, however much to be respected; and if the Chancellor doubts the propriety of placing any person so recommended in the Commission, he acts upon his own judgment. " If the Custos Botulorum declines to recommend any Gentleman applying to him to be so recommended, and that Gentleman applies to the Chancellor, the Chancellor judges for himself whether he will place the name in the Commis sion notwithstanding the objection, generally, if not always, first communicating with the Custos Itotulorum upon the subjeck of the ohjection. " I am nut able to call back to my recollection the cirenm stances- which may hare taken place respecting the Norfolk matter, which has been mentioned. I have a faint recollec tion that some mention was some time ago made to me, by whom I cannot say, respecting the want of Magistrate; in sonic part of that county. What was done upon that t can not ascertain ; but my-secretary of commissions having, at nly instance, looked into the correspondence and papers for ten years, as he informs me. finds nothing relative to the ap pointment of Justices in that comity, in which coihmunication his not been had with Lord Suffield. If any other person applied to me, I therefore suppose I must have communicat ed with Lord S. ; but the only way, perhaps, in which ac curate information can be obtained, is by Lord S.'s inspect ing the Commission, and seeing whether any names have been therein inserted without communication with him, and, on the other hand, Mr. C. should state the particulars to which lie alluded. It is possible, though 1(10 not recollect the fact, that 1 have been applied to, to place gentlemen in this Commission nut. recommended by Lord S. I think it veryimprobable that I should have placed their names in the Comzuission without obset ving the civility of unmunicating to Lord S. that such application bad been made to MC, though after such commu nicition, I should of course have decided upon the matter as it appeared to me to be right, if there had been and• difference of opinion. That. there has been any such Ido nut recollect. " It occurs to me to mei►tion, that there are two► ma tt ers which ate exceptions to what is above stated. A gentleman who was recommended by the Secretary of State was of courNe inserted in the Commission, and I very lately mentioned the name of a clergyman to be inserted in the Commission, whose Hanle I understood would be found in the next recommenda tion of the Custos Rot ulorum. " Your's, dear Sir, .g ELDON." " P. S. Being informed, since I wrote the above, that Mr. C. stated that he had a personal interview with me upon the subject, I cannot doubt the accuracy of that Gentleman's *term:tit, though the fact has escaped my recollection." He had mow perforated What he conceived to be his duty, though he thought it _right, before he eat down, to corroborate that part of Lord Suf field's letter, where allusion was made to himself personally could speak with the utmost con fidence of the imp.trtiality which Lord Suffield had always displayed in the exercise of his of ficial duties. Mr. Coke repeated, that in consetjnence of d declaration made to him . at Gen. Money's by Lord Suffield, that he would insert in the commission of the peace the names of such of his friends as he (Mr. Coke) should recommend, he had left • certain rta!»vs at the office of the Cle►k of the peace for the county; and was atterwards inform-, ed that not one of the gen 'alien whose names he had so Lit was appointed to the Magistracy.— Having made this application, as far as he could recollect, upon the most gracious declaration of Lord Suffield, he was not a little surprised at the refusal e Bich lie experienced ; and he therefore s►+bsetluently applied to the Lord Chancellor for the same purpose. The Lord Chancellor advised him to snake another application to the Lord Lieu tenant ; but under such circumstances as l►e had described, every body would see that such a pt oceeding was impossible.— (Hear ) When, therefoi e, he came to town in the ensuing spring, he wrote to the Lord Chancellor on the subject, who appointee him a meeting it► his Ovate chamber in the House of Lords, there he (:Ilr. Coke) had never bit n before, and where lie had • never been since.—(l - lear ! and a kagh.)—Thr Lord Chancellor told him, that he would turn the subject in his mind, fur he (Lord Eldon) was fully cenvinced that he (Nile rarku) would not recom mend any individual as e a fit - pet sou to be appointed a i‘legistrtre who was unworthy of :he situation. ‘Vhetleer Lotd Eldoo bad paid the Lord Lieute nant of the y. the compliment of communi cating with him on this point. he (Mr. Coke) could not tell : but this he.knew,. that all the persons 'Orem he recommended were within four months inserted in the commission, except, in deed, one Hon. Gentleman, now a Member of the House, whom be did not see in his place. (Hear !)—Whet her the memory of Lord Eldon had failed him, was not for him to determine : if it had, so much the worse for the suitors of the Coltrt in which his Lordship presided. But lie himself well recollected all these points. As to the im partiality which Lord Suffield was said to display i n the exercise of his magisterial drolea, lie must say that, for one, lie doubted it.—(Hear!)--He firmly believed that several of the Magistrates had merely been put into the commission for party purpose's, and that several of his (Mr. Coke's) friends had been ;ejected merely because they were his friends.—(hear !)—This was the, kind of ine flnetice which would be exercised in all parts of the kingdom, if the present bill's were to pass : it setiuld be extended not only to the Magistrates, but to the Sheriffs in every County., He did not mean to say that it was extended •o far at present ; by in, memos : there had recently been a splendid' meeting of the Freeholders of Not folk at Nor wich ; and too much praise conlil not be given to his Hon. Friend the High Sheriff of the County for his conduct on that .. occasiou.—(Hear !)—He had there stated, that it was his firm opinion that the tiovernment were themselves most strongly implicated in the events at Manchester.—(Loud toles of hear l)-1t was his opinion, end he (emid not change ie—(Hear !)—it was his opinion, because they set their faces against all impiiry, for tear, he supposed, of something coming out which would deeply implicate themselvet.— (Clieers.)—Havieg taken Harrison in London without a riot, they were determined to kick tip is riot, rather than not have a reason for enacting ieeasures like the present. He might have been warm On this subject ; he could not help it : it was the temperament of his nature : if he had said any thieg offensive he was sorry for it ; but he had only stated what had passed as accurately as his recollaction served Linn.—(Hear !) Another Hon. Member was rising to speak, when lie was interrupted by Mr. SPeAKER, who said, that before the con versation went any further, he could not help pressing upon the notice of the House its irregu lenity, and the dangerous consequences which it might tend to produce. He ought, perhaps, to have stopped the Hon. Member who commenced it, but he wee not amere of the length to which he would go. Atter he had allowed the Hon. Member to proceed through the whole of his statement, it would have been an act of the most gross injustice to have thrown any impe diments in the way of the Haeourable Mrtuher who had just sat down.—(Rear, hear !)--lie hoped that he did not presume too much in pre suming that the House would support him in this call to order—(Hear,hear!)—He trusted that They would pardon him for saying, that the conversa tion had already one far enough, and further even than the vet y lexest practice allowed which he ever recollected to have ()centred in the House. It was not, perhaps necessary that their laws and regulations should always be observed to the letter, but unless the spirit of them was preserved, they would not•be able to preserve their own ttignly, or to promote the .besiness of the public with that celerity and regularity which was absolutely ne cessery.—(Hear, hear !) The conversation then dropped. • PENRYN BOROUGH. Sir C. Bt./1111Eu, moved for leave to brig e in n Bill to remedy corrupt practices in the Borough of Penryn. He explained the mature of its pno. , visions, hot in so low a - .tone..(frorn evident-Wis. pohitioti) as to be intudible to the gallery. Sir C. HAwKtNs delivered his Opinions in is still more iroatreible voice. Mr. DENNISON v*s for taking away the elec tive lranchise from Tenryp, Grampatool, and B4rnstaple, and giving it to Leeds, Birmingham, mi . (' Manchester. This, he thought, would d Mach tO reconeilet he people, and render the new measures unnecessary, as they would be ineffec tual. .His advice respecting the people was to " Be to their faults a little blind; • Be to their vivtnes ever hind, And clap a padloch on their mind." Leave was Caen'given to bring in the Bill. COTTON MANUFALTORIES. Sir R. Palil after- a few remarks,. moved for leave to bring in a, Bill to amend the Bill of last Session for regulating Cotton Factories, and fur the preservation of the health of young persons employed therein. He adverted to an accident by which a large factory (one of the cotton mills of Mr. Owen, of New Lanark) was burnt, and ob served that, unless the unhappy condition of the wo►k-people affected - by it was looked to by the Legislature before the Ist of January,. their dis tress would be dreadful, and they would be turned loose upon Society. One of the objects of the . new Bill was to provide that they might be allow ed to work at night in other factories, so that they should hot be entirely idle ; null it was im possible to take them on for day %yolk, as there was no room for further hands. .Lott) A. limstivroN seconded the niotipri, which he hoped would be st g reed. to %without a dissentient vote. Mr. PHILLIPS sail, this was a proof of the danger of legitlaring at all upon such subject!,.— The Bill w,nt to legalize the most disgraceful practice of night work, and yet so great was the difficulty occasioned by the former Bill, though not yet in - operation, that he feared it was indis peusibie. Mr. BaouGHAst defended the original measure. t o supply an otnis,ion in which was the only in• tent of the present Bill. Mr..KI-RKNIVI FINLAY thought the former Act full of omissions, and that there was no possibi lity of rfgolating subjects of this kind without en counter lug the most serious inconveniences. The best remedy would be to repeal the for titer Act, hick was found s u tr oublesome altogtt her, even befor e it was in force. Leave Ivas given to bring in the WI. CALLAdHAk tiOStpOild hls motion IC;AtiVe to the 10 per Cent. Irish Prot e ction Duties I/ il to-morrow. A Petition was presented from the Boroug h of Sligo, for the reined , / of certain grievances, hot! was stated that theNemedy could ttite tegulat l f be had in a Court of Law. Read, and ordered to lie on the table. SEDITIOUS MEETINGS. The Order of the Day for goi n g into a Corn: mittee on the SeditiOns Meetings Prevention 13ili was read, on the motion of Lord C as tl e reagh. On the question that the .speaker do leave th e Chair, Mr. C. HoTctittlsotit rose, and repeated man , ' of the objections to the extensi on of t he rneasql, to Ireland, which he urged last ni g h t . He w 34 ready to go as far as Gentlem en w i s h e d, to pro' tect the distmbe:l districts in Irel a nd ; but why` extend a measure of pains and penalties to country which the 'Noble Lord himself bad de'' scribed as prosperous and tranquil ? He asserted th:tt Ireland bad been loin out of Sight daring kal the early stages of toe Bill, and thus Members in" (laced to vote for it, who wo u lam o t ot h e rwisa.: have done so, The Noble Lord durst not ltaye offered such a.ploposition to the liish Pat liamO t .! in its most degiinled 591 e, it to gag his countrr , nnn when there 'was no cause for it, or no better' Cause that, disturbances in certain Juanufeetiirit4 districts in England. By this means General Cie : tholic Aleetiogs Would be prev en t e d, w i t h o ut the, consent of Corporations which, irons the state °' party feelings, could not be obtained• He iterated, the Noble - Lord's picture of the ptosperity of Ire • land, lo no country of the world were the pea' santry so wretched; and their nninufacture! . i . ne e d e d, indeed, the protecting ten per cent. dill : hid/ W 35 about to he continued to them. 6° T depressed .was the state of Ireland, that if Ile other Member did, lie should thiiik it his duty , before the end of the Session, to move for a Cour_ utittee to enquire into its distressed state. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that if the Hatt' Gentlem.ir wished to exclude the operation of the Bill from Ireland, a convenient opportunity woul d ' offer in the Committee. At present it wos 't! b el abusing the patience of the House to enter that discussion. The [louse then resolved itself into the Con", mittee. The Bill was ordered to be r e ad a sew n time, paragraph by paragraph, and the preamb le agreed to be postponed. The Chairman then pro- ceeded to retail the firs , clause, giving a power "/,' the Lord Lientenaot, &c. to convene meeting'. Sir C. MONCK. proposed HS AD amendment, C (7 ' leave out the wor,s Lord Lieutenant or,' on tue grounds that a Lieutenant was a military offict r i; and that it was desirable to keep the mitharV interfering with the Civil Authorities. Lord CAS7LBRFtAPH defended the clause, 39 nil" same which had been introduced in former 13i 114 't and as affording one other choice to the T will° wishing to have a tneeting legally convened. Mr. G. LAMB opposed it. A.Lurd Lientcoo nt denying the request of the people. wohld do mac boom than his . assent in another ease would dot good, as Shen iffs, Grand 4orots,and 1 4‘i ^ gis(ra (0 would all plead his example as a justification O a r , their not acting. He would even go further, strike out the Cost(); Rotu!mum. Sir It. HERON wits at the same opinion. The amendment was, however, nce,atived, the clause agreed to. On the second Clawe, Patt.t.in wieh -41 provision to he made, hr which places like INl l f lar attester tinght have meetings converted by 15( '; roughteeves and Constatil. a, 114 they did not cot " within the dent iption of Cities, Countits,,4c. the purview of the Bill. LordCASTLPREAGH said the -Bill afforded:el facility. to such Wares, anti nothing. Was tI from them which (Ley enjoyed under lot m er Mr. BROUGHAM thought the. Nobl e of nec,.ssiiy yield a Utile on ibis point, so that g re : and populou s places, such as Manchester, Wolv e " ' hanipton, and Sheffield (which were in fact ciri'!' though not in name) might have the :same legea with cities, borougl.s corporate, and ro`" e j corporated, designated in the f3tll ; he a cco , ' the Noble Lord and 10, law advisers of not se e ' e f, to what extei,t the measure would otherwi , e. e '• chide the people in the first Places in the conut'f; The Learned Gentleman went on to define vvl''.!, places would be excluded ; but amid such na i l: lions from the other side, and corrections on cp.vii part, that we could not precisely consprelle how far the objections applied. ‘Vliv give tt York, Exeter, and such places, whilst it thought necessary to.exclude Birmingbark, 1 \ 161) ,; chrster, Sheffield, &c. which .differed bum rlte t! only in this—that they were more populous 0., more important, and.had risen being nally villages to the rani; of the first inantifact,"d iog tows in Eogland„ whilst their more favou r rivals had been cities from the beginning dii hs m Mr. Wat - rnAN thought the present to he considered as a ildruchial Bd ! , and a s bel; framed solely for the purpose ot preventing Poi dotting. Z.-ix. days' notice was revired bel l s meetings c'ould 114 C place. He • would as k t ‘ i.. Noble Lard (Castlereagh) how it would he Pr st hie to follow him, if be were to continue t o forward Bill, tending to the sithit..rsion of the of Rights, and to the deft knew of the Coni ti ":..a • tion, .in the present case At'er this netur ' had been given, w iven, it as permitted to postpone eO, meeting; so that there might be another SnsP ld site') of the Habeas Corpus Act before the P e°l l l l ,e would be able to convey their Petition f , ° , Throne. It was in this light that the AV' , o i subversive of the Bill ot nights. Every O W . prevention wet e thrown in the. way or of petitioning : it had been seen whit dif fi i cti V had existed even in the City of London to "i c ier ,' mining meeting, and the Attorlir)a Ge . l i e elf might beteatter be found prosecuting indiv th e ,viio had tact ttigetl,er, in cont-egin nee ol l i g ol n-ssibility of gaining this privilege in El - shape. f re ' Lord ComPTntv rose for the purpo9e o• r f , s eir g , hug an Amendment to the Bill in its I , t r" ,ta.e. Hi; reason for su pp o rting the g le e :p principle ot the Bill was, that lie tega rt f 0 1.4 right of petition as a MOSt vabiable tru e : rill t of eminent advantage to the .Cons f r:frce 4li c and it was il) etortect the indecorous exercise which had of late been made of it , ta t the this Bill tended. order, however , ta til i , t i;