The Sun. — London, England, 1819-05-14 00:00:00

ARLEA VI E N T. HOUSIF. OF LORDS, MAY 13. The Scots Jory Coort Bill was returner) from the House et Cumuious, by Mr. Breeden And other Members, Agreed to.---Some Private Bills %, ere also brought tip by Mr. Sioart r Wortley, Mr. Lit tleton, Mr. PrySe and other Members, and read a first time. A Pegi ion from Mahlon (Essex) against the Roman Catholic Claims was presented by the Earl of 1 4 1verpool.--Order'eil to lie upon the table.. Tliell , :poit of the Chimney Sweepers' Regula ting) was received, and the Amendments pi4leed . . . The (;!ergy Dispensations Bill was icad a, third time and patscd.--,..Aojourped till to-u►orrow (this day.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. On the Motion of Mr. WeSiERT4, an bumble 'A;olr►•sa was ordered to ht. presented. to iri s !Ugliness the pil,re Reee►►t, prayi►►g for an Ac count of the Prices of Foreign COi-n, and - other r•Aw produce o,l..Agriinlture, received from the British Consuls t►t .various foreign ports, Within ttie last six mouths ; also an Account of tiae.tluat►- titV at Corn, Grain, and Wheat itnpo-ted into Great Britain and Ireland doming the last three Mc. Dato4nttr brought in a Bill to Facilitate the Dispatch of Business in the Court or fling's 11 , neh.—Rea1 a first time,. and ordered to be read a second time that day loithight, and to be pr•nted, ' Mr. IL. CLIVE presented a • return of .the nutn bcr of itrisoners confined io the different gaols, and . thown Debt or•---Ordvred io be printed. TheCnstonts and Excise Duties Payment Fa cilitation Bill, wir••; read a thW. time..aud passed. liumg presented a..peitiou itom the Cor poiation and Guildry . of Trlrechin, against: the Scrits Regulation -Bill.--Referred to tae Com rnittee on the subject. • RIBBON AND SILK WEAVERS. 'Mr. P. l',lopite pre'sented a petition from the .I\i Ivor and Corporation of.,Coventry, stating -the (fre d dlul distresses under which the Ribbon and Silk Weav,.rs of that city atol its neighbourhood were suffering—distresses so great,' that if not speedily relieved, they must one and all perish—and pray, ing/ that the House would . take their case into its most serious consideration.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. P. Mooxe then rose, pursuant to his no tice, to move for leave to brjug in. a Bill for the Relief. of Ribbon and Silk Weavers, founded on the Report of the Committee of last Session. In the city of Coventry, the greater part of the lru pulatiou were redoced to the utmost distress ; thousands of families being thrown for. support on the pdors' rates, it) consequence of the iastrfa ficiency of the wages give's to the weavers, and nOt. OrViirg to any waist Of employment, as the ribbon trade was in a very flourishinr st s t e , ' an d . immense fortunes had been made by some of she msstir manufacturers. What was desired was, that the legislative regulations by which the price of labour in the silk-manufaerure,abhve 40 years ago, was regulated. in Spitalfislds and Dublin, Should -be extended so the Rihhon Weaveli of Coventry. In support of the necessity of some PailiaMentary Interposition on this subject, the 800. Gentleman referred so the Report of the Commit - tee of list Session, in which the eirctimS stances of the'case were very hilly detailed. The; .I.‘l a trites of Coventry had stated, that not withstanding the severe pressure, there had been do tumult or disorder ; 'but that the people bad borne their sufferings with patient resignation, tinder the humble but constant expectation that asonsethhig who'd be 'done by the Legislature in their behalf. Last year, when the necessity for interference was not so -clearly established, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed' him . - self doubtlnl whether it might not be advisable. As present. therefore, when that' necessity 'was evidently imperious, he (Mr. 1': Moore) thought be had a claim on the Right Hon. Gentletnan's support. Unless something was speedily done', the whole population of Coventry most perish in one common ruin. The Committee on the Poor Laws lisd stated in their Report, that pstienCe, endurance of labour, and frugality, were quali ties whieb i onder the - present circumstances, the lower orders of the people wese.pecoliarly cNlieil upon to exercise; but these (lodides had all seep exeinplarily exhibited by the silk weavers of Co ventry, to no purpose. They were absolute paupers. , This was a . state out of .which ea to bring them . ; and lie trusted 'his example would be ((snowed by such Hon. Mionbers as Insight unhatspily have constituents simihrly cir cumstanced. The silk and , ribbon weavers of Co ventry, althongh they laboured in general 1-6 bouts its the day, or 96 hours in the week, were,. nevertheless, obliged to have recourse to the. pours' rates, for she means Of supßortiog them selves anti their taMilies. All the aid derived from friendly societies,. voluntary contributions, had Jong heest exhausted. In 1816, the' masters were. so struck with the sufferings- ot, the persons employed by them, that, they eras teLetl into mutual ogreemer t tri give then) a fairer pt ice for their labour.; but from that agreement one by one of the individ ua l s w h o were parties to it receded. Now, however, the s a m e iridividuals joined with the operative weavers in their prayer for legislative interference, fia(.sisme measure whiCh could not be eluded,- feel ing that it w a s indispensible to their Com Mon preservation. Hehad, a paper to that:effect signed by every firm in Coventry. By the Report'of last Session, it appeared that the persons em ployed in the ribbon and silk trade of Coventry were divided into five classes, all of thCm working 16 hours in the day ; those of the first class earned 10s. a- Week ; that was, 10s. for 96 hours of labour, or two hours of what wa; really heavy labour for two-pence halfpenny. Those Of-the second class earned five shillings and sixpence a week. Those of the third three shillings and ninepence. Those of, the fourth two shillings.— And those of the fifth one shilling and sixpence; . or 12 hours labour for three halfpence. O course such sums were inadequate to the support of the , persons receiving them ; and the del cicncy Was therefote made good out of the boors' rates. All that was'asked was the addidOn of the fraction, a farthing a yard on the wages, which would ef fectually relieve the operative weavers and their families from the distress under which they at pre sent laboured. If the ribbon track; revived, the .whole,trade of Coventry wonlitresive with. that sunk, all would sink. After_enfnrcing.these remarks at considerable length, the Honourable Gentleman-concluded by moving for leave o bring in a Bill for the better;teg i nlation of .the Wages of Persons employed in. the Silk Manufacture of Great Britain. RoarNs , t4 could asstire the Hon. Gentle man and .thr,llouse, that no person could more sincerely sympathize with the petitioners in their distress than 'he did, and it was therefore with great regret that he felt himself obliged to °tiro - ie the Bill which the Hon. Member wished to intro duce, as one ill caleniated to remove the evil com plained of, He undetstood the measure that he (Mr. Moore) wool() propose, 'vent to extend to th • Silk'Tracie etterallY tbe.prOvisions of the SpitAfieldS Bill:: He considered dangeroos to ittteifere with the Wages of labour, antithe House - always been very cautious in dutvg, so. In !Mfg, a Committee had sat on a very anb .ject--on'the then state . of the Cotton, Trade.' They 'had very soon made their Report,and as the sen ti:nents it contained . iTere pit Jecily cutAotniab!e to his own, be would now read them to the Hoose. Th'e RepOrt stated that the ConiMittee were in fOrtned_that some such . a reizolatiOn ai . w.as then ,prayed for, had been tot several years in force in the' Silk Trade; and . they had 'resolVed thin such legislative interference Must have a tendency to a ; ,:g'ravrite - those evils which it was the object of the Committee, and most b e of the House, to td kvi.tti% Stiehl was the view of a subject - prec•sely s i m il ar t o th e present, that was taken► OV that Cominitttee, which contained the petsons best qualified to judge Of the Merits of such a question that were then in the Honkie. Attioug 'hem he 'might mention Mr. Blackborne, Air. D. Ghhly, Mr. Baring, Mr.lidriter, Mr. I'. Moore, Mr. Rose, Air. Huskisson," Mr: Wilberforce, and Mi. Whitbread. Such a measure, therefore, as i t was now proposed, to introduce, he MOO OtjCet to, unless it could be proved that' this particular .trade ought to be excepted from those general rules which it had been thought wisdom to adopt for the regulation of their conduct When legislat ing on such subjects. Mr. DAVENPORT was of opiniOn. such a MCASUre as that recommended by the Hon. Gentleman would be Most prejudicial to the interests of the country. Alr. Ewes-contended, the - peculiar' sitnation 'of tbe Silk Ti-aile'Wji such as to justify the ap peal now Made .to ,Parliament. When such a measure as the Corn4lill had been passed to pro. tect the landed interest, without censuring that law, he might say, the wit - originate silk weavers had a .. :Olt to look for legislative inteatrenee save them from starvation. It was stated to hint by the Wf:ayerS, that a tax, aniontiting to hut the eighth of a penny, levied on the consumer of every yard of silk wove in Coventry, would re nuedy the evil : and he thought it but r e asona bl e that the snirerers should wish to have this secored to them by an Act of Pal liaMent. P su. h relief were not atfoided, and the Bill nett in the 110 , ise for alteriug the poor Laws should pats, which contained a clause against grain ip a any able bo died man parochial relief, he wished to know what the Foist• labourer was to do ? A: present he could not exist, if he were not partially sup ported out of the .f'oot's RateS. He had thus fur spoken merelyas to the price of labour, li e derstpod the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.. Robin son) hail no objection to the other parts of the Bill, and he therefore entreated the Hon. Gentle man not to object to, this Bill being brought merely because be disapproi'eci of one part of it. He beg g 'd to, call the attention of the Muse to the system of halC;pay apprentices, which had lae cOitie very firevalent in Coventry. Under this plan, the apprentice received half the value of his la bour,—This formerly did very well, till an altera tion took place in the t;;ade, when the apprentices were thinwb on the parisb, and the greatest mi sery ensued: The Bill went to provide a remedy for this, and he therefore hoped the Rig-ht Gentleman would not oppose itsbeingbrought Mr. WAL.Acs contemded, that unless it were clearly prOvecrthat the general principle asted on in such cases ought to be dispensed with in favour of the siik-weavers, - a Bill like that propoied to be introduced, ought not to . be brought in. He ttrongly objected to all interference with the price'of labour, but should be glad to see proper rcegolations arlopred to correct the evils of the holf.;pay-systern. Mr. DUGDALE stated, that had ivitnessed the distresses of the manufacturers in Coventry and it t s, neighbourhood, and he thought the Bill ora cale i ttlaled to relieve them. lie did not see , the policy of- potting one portion of manufactur. els under certain Legislative regulations, and r e -, fusing them to others ; those who were exc l u d e d ft OM the operation of such regulations demanded that, it might be extended to them, and he thought their. request ought to be complied with. Mr. V. Bit X - coN, thought those principles which Were acted upon .with 'respect to labour-in its na l tural.stste, were inapplicable -to the artificial state of things which now existed in Covimtry. At present -a ;eery small part. of the t.a,ges of the work rn:it was paid out of the; pocket of the ma nufacturer. The greater portion of what he -re ceived cazne.from the 'parish. A skilful work man, after labouring - for 16 hours per day, with machinery. of - his own,.'so that ,he must have some littls capital also, could- get but 10s..per week..;—.- Others,cotibLobtain but ss. 611. per week.- . The rest of what they received came from the parish. The Vuor's Rates were the cause 'of-this state 'of things, - But for them it must - lonk since haYe . ceased to exist ;. for either the men would have abandoned-their work altogether, , or the mastets would hate been compelled to raise their wages. Thelioese, then, was not to proceed as:if the trade were in a common. state ;. but the question was,. Whether, the trade having been forced. out Of its ordinaryostaie by one course of •legijati.oo, it was to he left there; stir bout any effort being mlide to remedy the evils thence arising by fur ther Legislative ihterfereuce ? cases was au • ordinary case, ifs had been atstitintid; - for in eo- I/entry the Poor's Rates were, at this time of comparative prosperity; '1 UU s: in•. the pound ; : and one-third of the population of the 'city received the-means Of subsistence from thtii. The Poor's Rates were the centre of thg Al._ A merc,hant in London having no coonexion with Coventry — having nevec.pa4gt._.o tr! thePe!ien! . ! . Rates of that place, could send goods to be manufaCtinc .ed there by pertotts who were to receive ss. 6d. - per week for their -labour. The deficiency be tween that sum and what .was. necessary for the support of the workthen•was r to.he made gob(' by the parish. • The half-pay system was-most.injii rions in its effects,-as it-caused young peo ple in Coventry, who were ernployed in the silk trade, to become paupers, and produced in its re snits- one of the most frightful pictures. of debau-. cherv, vice, and iromorality,,that ever was known. He considered the greatest benefits to have ari sen froM the Spnalfields . Act. He'had a Peti 6On-in' his possession, which, pet haps, he ought to have presented that night, which was sigo eci' by every mister mai.OlaCtiirer of Spit alfields . This petition staged that Act to have been r,,;:eti ,even" years, and to have proved most he:oficial .to both masters and joutneymen.-- The 'Spitalfiehls•Act authorized a Magistrate to act arhitriitor between the. masters and the w „ journeymen, when _any dispute aro s e •betwer'n them. The effect of this Was to make any agree irsent.that they might..couclude biodrog oo both parties. I's or dity might he seen from One Singh: fact. In 1816, similar agrerinentS'w(Tre entered Into bet weer !lie masters and Men in Coventry tlie masters and men of Spitalfields. In the founer place the agreement, made was mit ob served for a fortnight ; in the latter it had, been acted on up to the present time. 'Alloy advan tages had followed the passing of the law. It had p6idueed loyalty, peae.e, and good order, where all before was disaffection, disorder, and riot,— Thi'l,king as he did that the workmen ought . to hr p,id by. those for -whom they labohred, and not out of the Poors' Rares,the would give the B 11-now proposed to be introducedhis support-. . . Mr. S. WOliTLat thought it the claimed. for: the silk weavers were granteilT, other Hades woul'd have an equal right to call on Parliament to interleie in their behalf. 'He did not think the evil grew out of the pours' rates, but out of the walit of customers who would. buy at such prices as would enable the mister to - gi.ve those in leis; einploy an 'adequate remuneration for their 18-1. boor. Air. PuiLurs was surprised ,to bear the lion. Member (Mr. finst•tn) say the petition in favour of the Soitalfidds Bill which ht- had to present , was signed by tattle. Master Weavers in town, as the' evidence given by Mr. S. Wilson before the Committer would have warranted hitt) in com ing to a very different That Act - Initi been most inittri9tts in its effects; and 'as ro the quietness which it was.said to haNe.productd, he viewed it hot as the quietness of death, .for the manufacturers had been compelled to go elie where. Ile, could see no reasOn,why labour .should not be lett to find its t rice, as well,as:6nycomtno ditv in England. It,we.s not by an attempt to re inore Ilree0! from one class of per3ons to atm, ther, that relief conld be afforded, bot by some measu re thal'wooldgo to break down the pre st nt syst6,), Eiiid restore to the +cntkmnn hiS . fortner gard for clitracter and independence. i\!r. IW-x-roN, in explanation, said, the petitinn he had to present was signed by all the 111,1StelS in ; Spitaifiukis, ihowzb not by all who resided in other parts of ihe -Metropolis. Mr. ILGERTON spoke, 6nt was inaudible in the Gallery. Mr. LITTLETON 84W no necessity for bringing in a general ine t istireto correct aloc4l' grievance. `Mr." CnitweN reotnn;ended it to his Linn. Friend to 'vviihdraw the,. Bill, and bting in nn. other,.to regulate the lialt•pay system►, and other matters e,,trheciect with the fracle . .. •• Mr. P. Mount briefly replied, and consented to withdraw the Bill and throw on ,Ministers tire regptinsibility of relieving . the existing dis tress. The motion %pas then withdrawn. Sir 1J PARNELL MOVE(' tor Accounts relative. to Transfers of Stock Of' thejiatiks of England and Iteland.—The potion was ai;reed to. PROPOSITION RESPECTING THE SINKING FUND. Mr. GfteNFBLL, in Ininging forward !he motion of which he had given notice, 'said, he had taken the liberty to address the House on the same sub ject in 1814. His object then. was tile same: that he had now' in view ; and be hoped to convinee the House, and thoSe at the head cit the .Finances of the Nation, not only of the expediency, but of the_necessity, in the pre-sent state. of the countrV, of applying what they. were still pleased to call the Sinking Fund in diminution of the loan which t be thancelbor of the Exchequer found it necessary to . raise for the service of .111e.present year. For doing so there was a distinerkgal au thority to . the . elause, commonly clued the Fox ,Clause,' added by the great 1113 n whose• name :it bone, to the Bill respoctitig 'the Sinking Fond, .which passed in the year 1786, Anxious notto - be . misunderstood or misrepresented .with respev i t iris : , tuotives for touching' the Sinking 'Fund, he begged to' say, that there was no man . , in or out o'fAhe F ilottie_. Who valued more highly than he did. the Sinking Fund,. such as it was onn in lorded tO be He viewed it as a most' ancient teat ore in the plan. of finance brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman with whom it Dated. .The object of it was .to set Hpitrt the sum of •I,ooo,oooLont of each loan, and secure it,' so l it as it co old he secured, to be opplied, by , the operation of compound interest, to the extinction of the National Debt; which at that period amtmitt ed to "213,000;0001. This plan ' was at first acted npo.n ; but when war broke .out again new ar rangements became necessary. The • Act of 1792 'provided - that for every' loan, a . c.st - oking y o wl (4, one . per (Tv, should . lie P r e . d ”ri C instird the extinctiotiof the debt then contracted' in forty-five years at the ,ve L y fur thest. , Thus it trade each loan provide fur its - own gradual extinction. ‘A 7 hatever . exnedient • may be roposed, it would he found, niter nil, that •rxeesS of ordinary income•above ordinary expenditure Was the only means of providing for the extinction of debt. Such had been the Sink ing Fund'. iiut what was it now With 1813, r came the plan of the Chancellor of the quer. When it was first proposed, lie (Mr. (4--i t Olegave his vote "against it ; on this principle , in the then exhausted state of the country , would not have been wise to increase the btkr (l f tl of taxation, but to give the country more bre L "' ing time. From the adoption of dot nlari. 4° s ' ,ever, there had ensued an elttraordiriary deg ree , - profusion, and the country might now be sid ' t ° he waithont any Sinking Fund at all,- Front di g ' accounts on the table, it appeared that the exr e ' s j not of income above expenditure, but cipeodittlre, above income, ti"aS 13,500,0001. The Sinlii4 Fund was 16,000,0001.; so that, in fact, there w" s , .ottly'a Sin king hind 'of 2,500,0001. It was to 1 1 • considered what effect Wiii likely to be produ ce on the "revenue; by the distre'sses of the present year, and 'also the charges of the loan nhiell now appeared the Chanisellisr of the ExcheV et really Was 'to negociate. True it was , there vol , now standing in the names of the Commissioners' a snot of 100,000)0001.; and also that the (; w ?' uthe,ioners, wept into the city fistir days, in tn e week to purchase Stock. But, only let it be null' ! , iderecl that this Stock was purchased with bu r ' towed money—,--fhat new '!'.3Toe - k - was sOlir by tke ' t i ll , che:ip to bit) old Stork de-r ---10 sh o rt, that De moo , y was borrowed at a high rate, to pay the . old (I.lv, which Was at a low rate The win ia tochinery, erected by the Acts of 1786 and 17r0.),. was nos" in full operation. Bat he would tl 5l whether it was not worse than useless, that it was of no benefit but to a few prhatr 0 014 vidoals concerned with it, such as loan c onirae f tors and spec lators in the Foods ? h...“ 1 be 4 come a system, which complicated and in ,ol4 '- ed our Finances, and spread delusion anW n4 the public. The Ties!ion for the House to coil' shier was, whether they would stifle at "'!e e this delusive and intricate system, or all , ( 1 1 - it to go on? He had seen a calculation, by .W l " e ' it appeared, if Mr. Fox's clause had been acieti, on, frnin . 1793 to 18.13, it wotdd l; eve 13 "„ (1. 20,000,0001. to the public. It appeared by Account before the House, that it, in 1815. Commissioners had, under Mr. Fox's clause, b'e l't allowed to become subscribers to the loan, th ere would have been. saving to the p u bli c; o f at lel two,millions ;übs half, while an, actual 10" tl . 72,0001. would have been avoided. He kne w " was contended that the elfec of the present 6 1 5 ' tern was to keep up the price Of the Fuuds. l tt present be had no intention of discussing th e • question how far, in time of peace, when we sr ° a redeeming country, it was advantageous the price should be high: But he wholly den ie '., that this system had the effect of permattentir keeping up the price of the fonds. He bad fop; been of opinion' that by sending the Commission" ers with their 15,000,0001. into the City to sob; scribe, the price of the stock by the end (4 th - 7 year would be as high as by the present systein'. , The price of - stock, like the price of any other commodity, mug be taken as regulated by the PraP°"i6l) the supply to the dentaod. At ( 14 same- time he'knew tharmanv conscientious rner t entertained a different opinion. Bat he watt ar 4i3 the Chancellor of Cue Exchequer was on this in)i oc i»flnenced•by the opinion of .persons who °"g i ' i t not to be trusted upon. -it. There was , illf`l ee l . •on'honourahl,e. exception to it—namely, 03 ' an Hon.'Friend near hint, who openly told t))- thancellor. of the. Exchequer, that if he 'nl,is , giVe his opinion as to . wloit would be the beneficial plan for the conotry, i t ~,;„„1,1 be frP apply 12,000,0001. of the Sinking Fund towartlO, the. Loan., and thus only borrow 12,000,000 1 . in' stead of- 24-,000,.0001. He-should 'tor now fArill e t trouble the-HOuse, but would reserve to hnitsei the right or saying coy thing which he ini.gbcL think necessary towards the elucidation of 1 14 al' ; gum'cnt , (1 consequence of what might fall " iu the course of the debate. He. concluded ~, Movins, , ,that .ti e-I-Loose should resolve itself 1111(3 ; a Committee to consider of. .Sinking font Act., . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHrQUER said, he 'was •so far from considering "the motion less o b .' ectionable.as it was now framed, that b e cool f dewed it open to more objections on Piccolos' the manner in which, t was brought fool's° The proliosition had substanth•lly this aim, to f ey. ter the discretion of the Government in the 1 01) ; tier conducting its financial operations. 1-1 6 t I was at fist dioinct and positive. But the 1.0 : tion now before the House, while it involve' th e same principle, was the more dangerous by bell more indefihite: The Honourable Gentlei ll3l and the House were aware that by a e l aus ' e duced by Mr. Fox into the Sinking Fund A.o ,lllC‘ c Commissioners were allowed to vest a- t elt:Os " 0 . their disposal in th e way of a loan. This was , I ,: his opinion, a wise discretion ; but nollo'l4 would be less wise than to bind them (town °3 . , such a subject. The lion. Gentleman had st" teJ how beneficial it would have been to the publics' a . pecuniary point of view, it the Commissioners in 1815 h-id become subscribers to the loan. It '' i c trite that if they had become the subsm'ibers, a p ro : 1 would have accrued through them to tile pu bli c. T le That loan was contracted ihst before the h att l of Waterloo—(hear, bear !)--eand certainly, the event of that battle could have been Wr y sect), the public might have either profited in way suggested, or she, Government might hav e . framed souse other financial 'measure. But twr would the profit have berri,.if the battle of " a ; tenon had bees' lost ? In all these cases there v itr . a chance Of loss incurred, which was balanced b y the Occasional gain. It was a t t h at t i me to the subscribers; to know whether they wool': take it at a cheaper : rate,' if the Commissioner, Were to become subscribers for a part ; bat .stater) that thry J would tale it .on more adra'"i. tageous terms to the public, if the Stoking F un( . 'Was employed in the usual way. The Treasiul . ' were, therefore,-wise in following the Course :be ! had token, if the biddings of the contractors Iv ci r Itt be relied upon. It was t o b e reco ll e cted, 111 % since' the coin inencement of the war, nor less Ow • 900 millions had been borrowed, and that a very small small d , trerencein the terms of the Loans W°ll i 0 1 have prodticed a greater loss than that been citlettlated to have arisen front the Sin kiv g I nod. Lven the sum of 20 millions, gre at : l l y , was,•little mote than twit per cent. Ott hots and the contractors had uniformly offered ni . favourable terms on the condition of the Sinh i ' ) "` Fund remain/tile in optr4tiQu under the P°sgn 7;' y p 1 )14, 1 , we re tiq t. fr, r th e Par, b ll e t to„ o ce ;ql, b(iv t ti ,', 1 44 si,, to ti lilt 1 ty, h ~i'~~