The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

e tbdtt ti'' ook 100 it (11: thorigl ged by a le tferefore v 001(1 .go hear not fle e ti giVel) of chtsic se that I►e ye duty to !ime. fie the atter eCS arIP event °P I ; s fur l°, e (1 ange. S , re neces . rts or 111°, But b comid e ! ,e st Hoa g leta 100 y o f de' sure tit6t. ntenO o 'eve.' CV" , A ppear ° 1 as the/ Coatild louse 10 Idlest& .giug em 011 pl a ced weie t ° the A" perso ol ' 'mad be d the !ought ; ecilte t e 1 o he r o p°, nut ;41141 J Jed boa ) ieref or° Wade 00 t of Pe d pe oV l " aloe 14 e , 014 a 6( 04 ) e pe"' id toes' th 6 3rolcue tesole nifors° with- 'lie or DOt be a the ex; tend(' arisen , icii va, Ind °` ige to aver° d we .e $ )(1 in $ evpl e f 01)1( 111 e 1 .5 ; in ' l a 7' t ed IL 'arli'v. c0 (10 ' vo • WI CPC CL° i .dif ;0 411 , 1 7;00114 , icol# 5. .... ;ul# Ail :on" i 0 1) f ;00 h , 111 :5% notice. A n d, no doubt , the same scene 'ich . occurred at M anc h ester wou ld have b een ." 7'o if any resistance were offered. He did not :"Y, ind ee d,. his decided an d un if orm op i n i on ' ti ll), that such meetings were highly dangerous, "wise, and impolitic. They were of all things f t "st pernicious to the cause of Pat liamentary Re irib• Inde e d, if Mi n i sters w i s h e d to injure that -B "se, they cou ld ( t o not hi ng more effectual for I " e Ptirpose than to encourage such meetings to o; 4 , eMble as o f ten a s they pleased. The W or thy 'I I 4 1erm an proceeded to say, that the best way ° Put d own large. meetings was to c onc ili ate ' ll e people. If such men as Earl Fitzwilliato :ent f requently among she - Kople,and e n courage d u lit tsi to st a t e t h e i r gr i ev a nces, the i n fl uence of the ine rant orators would he extingOished. . But, in t'ul of conc ili at i on, the people were met with " "V thing to exaerate them; thei r p et i t i ons f or leli4 from taxation were answered by fresh taxes iptheir remonstrances against oppression were lied to by suspendi n g th e H a b eas C orpus Act. n iii s was not the w a y to soot h e t h e pass i ons . of , -.l e Peopl e . Th ey s h ou l d b e encouraged to pre -eilt their petitions to the House. They might Mistaken, perhaps, now and then ; but that as no reason why their prayers should not he Ittended to, and their statements investigated. At 4 event s , t h e H ouse, b y doing so, would satisfy ;thiernselvee and the co untr y t h at t h ey h a d perform ° t heir duty. Meetings were called in different ii. 444 of the country to sign declarations of boy ,,-"hY. What was this but to throw suspicion iftip loyalty of those who were not present ' such assemblies ; and be could not help re -ostking that the signatures to those declarations ' loyalty chiefly belonged to persons who were lie t Ni e eeting the public money, either directly or 'Melt • their relatives and friends. With the we : ) Ple he had pe cu li ar opportun i t i es of b eing Ih e li aegoattoed ; •and he could assure the House il "" the classes genera ll y supposa d to b e com rsed within the tertuf " People," were generally It% :-sessed of such a portion of information and t te lligence, 'as would app ear extraor di nary to Y Houonrable Members. They were not to e tatimia„ted ont of their rights ; and no peo lila 1 - . in the world were more sensible than a l ' ie ll to kind and lenient treatment. The Re il'irrn winch was sought for by several Meet ,ll:s, was in his opinion pernicious. At the k 4 , ll `e time it .. should be recollected, that ki , l ' u ng opinioirs in favour of it were given by 11,:i" 1: Y tt venerable. authorities, amongst w h om h e i name Sir R. Raymond, and Mr. Granville '! 'feared th an wh om a m ore honest man never before the tribunal of his Alaker. The l lt o , - - " t uy Alderman- proceeded to c on t en d i n f avour 4 1 flie respect due to the petitions of the people, C ci t i to:the rights•u'hich belonged to them by the ti, 48( 111140n. The Honourable Member insisted Ot if ei . ) measures as those now ptoposed were t i ilught ' 'efore Parliament, i n t h e time of . even brat I. they would he indignantly reject ed ; r 4' 4 it" wa s a mere delusion to le.tve it as a mat ((.4. discretion to the, Sheriffs and Municipal C il 'orities to summon meetings. He temeni tried how difficult it was in the City of London t ar get th e L or d M ayor to agree to requisitions , the most obvious public ex i genc i es. And now, -ass if yaord—(A loud laugh.)—l beg pardon—lndeed IN : tell Iw o a much greater error than this, I ant t o ", the House w ou ld pardon me. Referri ng b e '' i e papas on the table, he said, that wheu sh, ilt st received them, be anxiously l oo k e d fp; r • them to see if they cont aitted any io ta itis tion about the late Lord Mayor's fa• kaa 4lB Plot for setti ng fi re to the City of L on d on , 4e Murdering a ll - the inhabitant s . Wh en h e t w . l s' that an in.lividual in authority was induced v e credit to suc h a s t atement , h e could not ti tt t a ' a PPrehend that other p e r sons m i g h t b e prac tilt', on in the same m a n ner . A s to t h ese papers, hi n ie fore, th e y wou ld go for nothing with p, Th e Th e districts. chi e fly r ef erre d to i n these I,ilrrs contained upwards of a milli on o f inha taelilti, and from there the army was pri nc i pa ll y %a t .td. But if the army stoo d now i n need of an it )Iston, how could they look to these districts for ia„ 41 Was time, indeed, that they were told by an I,^te'tiotis person—" You will find death more born l4 able and less certain in the army than at e .. iiir e , • But how could Government rely on men it t 'e cl with 'such principles as bound them to te t : l i i "non purpose i lie thought that the pre lie:e. of Magistrates 'at parochial meetings ins -14:1; a restriction upon the free opinions of the 1 4 P ie. But" if it was made imperative upon them titi 4 e i ll meetings, and to preside at them, they 1 4 h it be vested with a discretionary power, as lattee t Mitting individ ua l s t o b e present as mere t he t4 lots. Who, however, that remembered Cl4 i Nnner"in which the Slave Trade was ex a • 4 111 5 .. 4 , could f a il to regret t h at any impediment t sl , 4 lhrown'in the way o f meet i ngs, w hi ch were tit il ii. b le Of working the m ost solid benefits to tu it ' i ntl ? Th e W ort h y Alderman, after some le ft I ' l ' observ a ti ons , c onc l u d e d b y recommend t4 tel t he Aristocracy to conciliate the petal le 1 ...`". I li e " 11 theM back to their duty—to rally robot! It sta o nstifotiOn—and they would then have a t enj t ,l ) ?pill4ti o n, prepared and resolved to de , iki "tr country. v iit e r.' WH.sina (one of the Members for London) tta t ' e t a fro m the Honourable Member who had 4. 1 4(1 4 11 him, upon the question before the i lti e i i .• He thought that the loyal meetings, f ti,: i si veie alluded to, were necessary, because i t 'lt t ' ,:l bad not been held, and if they had not 'lta r e l their opinions, it might be supposed that Ntiesolotions of the Radical assemblies expres- Pia i e unanimous opinion of the people of Eng g • la , 1 4 4 ,.. le was ready to admit that many persons t lii tln vent on Government signed the loyal decla•• kit ) s ' But be thought that this was a very jos -41 l e U Ott I t se of that patronage which all Ministers 1 ; 4 11 a te, and he doubted not that it the gentle. het° the other side of the House, were in , ' I ney would exercise their influence in the 11, ,', w a y ,„. e i- tt i • 5. - -v - sear !)—He did not mean to enter (,i °1 1 41 1410 the measures before the House. He a the that they were necessary to the stability q - Lo n • • d i s c et i stitution, and that they ought to en ivst i f 'east for 4Or 5 years. He was convinced, .1: 11 11a , t hey shorteoed the number of years they a i lit t '"id it necessary to increase the army still herds."O r „ , -on gentlemen were aware that was an hitt '4'''' Atilich ba s necessarily attend e d w i t h rr D Pri• Iti ,d, Mr. D. W. IL:la - to t was of opinion that the new measures would rather augment. firma allay the popular discontent, and therefore he should vote against them altogether. The true remedies in his opinion were the diminution, or rather equalization of taxation, by lighteoing the burden which pressed unequally On the poor, soda change in the representation of the country.-- He thought it ought to be clearly shew n , that - what had in duced the Grand Jury of Lancaster to throw. out the bills, was not that they had refused to bear evi dence, that they had not, for instance, come to the determination of not receiving the evidenee of Derbyshire at all. His view of the question of Reform was, that there was not a Member of that House who ought not, at some time or other, to be sent back to a certain portion et the people to whom he should be responsible and render an ac count of his conduct, Mr. Gaonot: Lai spoke in favour of an eqoa lization of Taxes and a rational Reform. He coo tended, that the former did not operate equally on our artificial system. The 'faxes on. Leather, Salt, and Malt should be repealed, and a powertoliv graduated Property Tax, affecting immense for tunes in an increased ratio, be sobvituted. He dwelt at some length on, the ignoring of the BiHs by the • Grand Jury, and on the supposition that they had refused to hear certain evidence, and rested on their oaths to prevent deVelouements, though inquiry was imperiously demanded. He noticed that the first and most _threatening letters from the Manchester Magi-arates, among•the do cuments, were dated the Ist of Jt . oy, twelve clays before Parliament separated, and et Ministers had taken no notice of it ; meaning rather to ex asperate the people as an excuse for unconstitu tional measures. He professed himself rtn advo este for Reform, not radical (tho ug h h e did nor esteem that so odious as was represented), but such as would send every Member at a certain, period, three years, befor e a popular body of con at ituents, to judge c-f his conduct. Lord STANLUY was so pointedly alluded to by the last speaker, and what he had said had been so misconceived, he would not say misrepresent ed, that it became necessary for him to re-state a few words. He had never said or thought that the oath of a Grand Juror protected him from divulgiug every ihing he knew, when called on by a Como of Law.by Parliament, or by any com petent authority. The Hon. Gentleman had put matters before the House which he had extracted from Hunt's Petition, asserting, among other things, that the Grand Jury not having evidence before them, bad acted as a powerful conspiracy of local authority. Presuming on this, the Hon. Member had repeated facts which neither rested on evidence nor authority.-.--(dear, hear !)—He therefore begged leave to take his old line, as he felt still bound by the same oath ; till legally re leased from which, be could not meet imputatunts however injurious or unjay. Mr. W. BOOTLE asked if the Hon. Gentleman bad said that the Grand Jury refused to hear the evidence of Mr. Derbyshire ? Mr. LAMB said, he had only declared that in his opinion it was necessary to know on what grounds the Grand Jury had come to a decisiou.—(Cry of Hear ! from the Ministerial side.) .. .Mr. BOOTLE would tell the Hon. Gentleman . so notch, that none of the allegations against the Jury were founded in fact, and consequently node of his inferences. correct. No evidence was re fused, and the impression that it had been, ought not, as after the Hon. Gentleman's denial he trusted it would not, go forth to the country,. Mr. LAMB again . explained. . . . Mr. C. HUTCHINSON entered into a loogalafertee of the Speech of Sir R. Wilson, osod. asked if the Bill now under discussion was to be extended to Ireland ? Mr. C. GRANT, in a low tone, answered in the affirmative. • Mr. HUTCHINSON then called on the House to recollect in what manner the Noble Lord had in troduced the measure, thereby deceiving 70 Irish men into a vote in support of. it,. on the supposi tion that their country was not to be visited by it. He accused Ministers of using false colours and of all manner of crooked policy.—(Considerable coughing having ensued, the Hon. Memberaleclar ed, that so often as he was interrupted he would be gin again, and lengthen his address tenfold.)--He again made a passionate attack upon Ministers, and especially upon the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), who was not in his place, for driving the people into acts of violence, and for iNideavooring to drown the voice of those who stood up for their liberties in that House. He asserted that Minis-. .ters had not saved the nations of Europe as they pretended. Their policy was as much detested abroad as at home. The nations of Europe hail saved theaselves when the ambition of Napoleon wrought his downfall. `Ministers had nothing to do with it, and all their acts were disgraceful. Mr. BARHAM contended, that the English de ' racter had not stints so low on the Continent as.the last speaker represented. He declared himself an advocate for inquiry into die transactions at Manchester. It was a debt owing to the people ; the loyal and sound part of the population was anxious to know whether the meeting was legal, whether the Magistrates had done only their slutv, whether the Yeomanry had committed •any wan ton violence, and whether the Constitution had been violated ? It was the chief subject •of anxiety throughout the realm ; he would not vote against - the Bill if it were confined .to the disturbed districts, and limited in its duration ; at the same time, he was con vinced that the power of holding public Meet ings, as protected by the old Constitution, was • conducive to the greatness and prosperity of the country. If a portion of the people were disaf fected, the extending the Bill to others was a strange way to conciliate ; for • his part, he thought it was holding out a premium for dis order.—(Hear !)---The country had grown great under the exercise of the privilege which was now about to be subverted. He appealed to the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, if he thought the Pro perty Tax would have been repealed, if, on that occasion, the people had been prev ented . from . exercising the right " of petition. In memorable instances, the sentiments of the people, when ge nerally expressed, had been acted upon by Par liament. It was so in respect to the peace with America, and the .war with France. It was a right, therefore, which ought not lightly to be infringed upon. Mr. Hum-Itssort rose in explanation, and said, that he did not assert that the English cha racter was degraded on the Continent, but that the character of the English Cabinet was odious and detestable to every honest man on the Conti nent of Europe. Mr. J. S. Cox spoke in support of the principle of the Bill. Mr. J. SMITH said, that great injury had been done the public 'credit by the which had been falsely s p rea d, exaggerating the 'state of the Country. Ile would not accuse 'Ministers of having originated these reports, hut he believed that their measures gave great countenance to an unfounded alarm. .Foolish and ridiculous stories had been propagated, which could not for a mo ment hear the scrutiny of sobet• investigation.— The lion. Member then took notice of the statement which had been made in another place on Friday last by a Noble Duke, (Northumber land) by which it was made to appear, that there were 100,000 men in .the district between the Wear, the Tyne, and Carlisle, ready to rise in arms. He (Mr. Smith) thought that the district so marked out, comprised more than a part of Durham and the south of Northumberland ; and that the entire of the population of the whole of these two counties, along with Cumberland did not exceed, in the y ear 181 1, 480 , 00 0 persons to whi c h if 70,000 were added, he could by, no means allow that 100 thousand per sons capable of bearing arms should be found between the Wear, the Tyne and Carlisle, even although the clergy were to he included.— (A laugh.) —And even the Lord Lieutenant, ye.! the statement, improbable as it was, had occa slotted a most unpleasant sensation, it had occa sioned a great alarm, produced a fall in the funds, and caused people to sell property here, to remove their capital to a foreign county. He declared that he had not a Shilling in any foreign funds, and that he would never abandon the vessel what ever the danger might be, while there was a plank to swim upon.—(Hear !)—These alarms. lie deprecated, because they injured the best in terests of the cou n try, and prevented the rise of exchanges, without which the country could never escape from the calamities with which it was threatened. lie expressed his doubts also of the truth of the report which spoke of - `20,000 men in Rutland and 50,000 in Bedfordshire ready to join the disaffected. A MEMBER, whose name could not he learnt, said that his reason for giving his support to Ministers that night was, that he considered the Constitution to be in danger, and he was sworn to defend it. Anotiree . MEMBER, also unknown in the Gallery, was desirous that an inquiry should be entered into respecting the .Manchester transactions, and hoped that the Bill would not be allowed to ex tend its operation beyond the term of one year. Sir ROBERT HERON was SO completely opposed to the Bill before the House, that he could not con sent to its action for a sin= 1<• day ; and he thought it impossible that he should be able . ;o bring his mind to support any limitation whatever of it. He was averse to teaching the people that the Constitution-ofthe country was, on every emer gency-, to be set aside.—Un the Manchester tran sactions be should say bust a few words. He was told not to prejudge the Magistrates; hut, as a Re presentative-of lice People, was he, he wonld ask, to prejudge theirs ?—All that he could collect from .the arguments he had hitherto beard respecting the illegality of the meeting was, that its object . Was Reform, and that that Reform was of a sedi tious kind. • , Sir CHARLES MONCK' felt great regret at the alarming statements which had been made el-e -where, more especially as they had produced such serious effects upon the public foods. He would willingly discredit .the declaration, but be must say, from his knowledge of ,the- person who was reported to have twitle the original statement, ti6t he had better opportuuities . of knowing the fact than-. he (Sir .Charles Monek) had. Certainly there was no person who would feel more decided abhorrence at snaking such a statement than he, sinless he bad been 'coavioced that it was perfect ly welrfonnded. Mr. 8120 NLOW, defended the conduct of him self and of other Irish 'Members who had voted on the present occasioniwith Ministers', frOm the imputations cast upon thein by" the Hon. Gentle man opposite (Mr. - Hutchinson), that they -were deluded by .the Noble Lord, under the idea . ,that the measure would not extend to Ireland. He, lon the contrary, maintained that their support was given • tinder the .iiresistible conviction of the necessity of the. measure, and that they came from !emote ; parts of the empire, under the in conveniences of the season of the year, to uphold the 'Constitution, and prevent, so far as their voice could go, this country from experiencing the calamity which' Ireland had suffered by the conflagration of a general rebellion.—(Hear.) . Mr, 1 - 1 LITCHI NSON acknowledged that he bad charged the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) with Ile ception towards the Irish Members, and declared that he heard for the first time to-night that the Bill was applicable to Ireland. The Hon. Mem ber was proceeding in the same strain, when Lord CASTLEREAGH begged permission to say one word in exculpation of what he had been charged with. He observed, that when he intro duced tote Bill to the notice of the House, be had expressly stated that it was applicable to the United Kingdom. Lord ISlotsrE•rH rose amidst bond cries of " Question," which rendered what tell from his Lordship inaudible. The SPEAKER then put the question, that the House do go into a Committee, which having been agreed to, • Mr. BEAUMONT rose to move instructions to the Committee to limit the duration of the He concluded by moving, that it he an instruc tion to the Committee to limit the duration of the Bill to six weeks after the commencement of the next Session of Parliament. The question having been put from the Chair, The CHANCELLOR Of the Excli MUER rose and said, that •he had hoped the limitation granted by his Noble - Friend would have con ciliated all opinions with respect to the Bill at present under the discussion of the House.—, mew. ~~~~~.~ (Hear, bear !)—The evil under which the country was at present suffering, was one of slow groWth, of great magnitude, and extreme danger ; and therefore not one to be met by measures of short duration. How long it would be -- before the country would be a state of permanent and set tled-tratiquiflity, it was impossible to judge; but, in his belief, it woeld require full five years to. tranquillize the public mind. The true nature of the present 13111 .was,—not to tithe away the rights of the people, but to modify them in such a Win ner as to render them compatible with the public good and security. The Right Honourable Gen.. *man concluded by proposing, that the words " five. years," &c. be sohstituted for the words " till the Ist of March, 1821, and six weeks after the next meeting of Parliament." Mr. CALCRAFT replied to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He thonight-14 months long enough to try the measures and their effects. His friends had been jeered about Parliamentary - Reform ; had not the same idea of i(s usefulness which they had ; ire thought is foolish to undervalue on exist ing institution until be had something to put itt its place. Reform was not ;his panacea. He would openly acknowled l ie, though- it was an'un popular doctrine in.that House, that he was for a - grant of public money 'to enable the surplus manufacturing population to emigrate. -- Here was something sensible ; the Right Honour— able Gentleman could not charge him- with ideal propositions. The plan of Ministers was, having frightened the douse by tales of terror to a proper pitch, they demanded the subversion of the Constitution for five, for seven years, for life ; it was the same thing. Sup.. pose the discontent ceased before the expiration of the period, what then would be the reply of the Noble Lord ? Why, it would be said that the Constitution worked better under the restraints of the Noble Lord. The old Constitution world be cried down as something inconvenient and un fashionable. He objected to any period for the existenc e o f these measwes. He would, however, vote for his Hon. Friend's motion, as it was the shortest period. In the :Dean time, the House should do all in its power to redress the griev ances and alleviate the distresses of the people. Mr. BANKES supported the &11, and maintained that the framers of the Bill of Rights Dever had such a thing in contemplation as that of a set of demagogues going about 10 collect and harangue large mobs, and impel them to every kind of se dition and violence : besides there was a law which expressly prohibited such a practice. It would be better to pass no measure at - all, that% to limit the duration of the Bill to the short period proposed ; it would only increase the le• verish heat which now prevailed in the country. There was another reason why be wished to con tinue this Bill to a long period, and that was, the mischief Which` arose from a seditious and blas phemous press, which it was indispensably neces sary to put down ; and the suppression of tumul tuous meetings would go a great way in destroy ing such publications. Mr. BUXTON supported-the motion. His friends had been asked what- measures of Conciliation they wriuld 7 o . 4l;oies He. raniwered th a t b e would be gin with throwi ng out the present Bills ; that would do more to re-assure the confidence of the people in that House, than any penal or restrictive . measure they could enact . H e enumerated several miter measures such as a declaration of the neces sity of- Reform in that House ; another declaration pjedO ng the );oust!- to economy. He concluded by,saying, that he svould rather vote for five years duratioo than the fsturteen months named in the instruction. -• • Mr. Pisecaval. thhught, 'at a time like the pre sent, that every -mars, forgetting party rend per sonal feelings, otight'as far as he cool() conscien tiously, to .suppor t Ministers, as at such a time it was to be assomCd . that_ the battle of the Coosti wits') was to be fought by the side of Govern- Nothing hot the conviction that this mea sure would prove a most dangerous inroad on the rights and liberties of the subject could induce hies at such a period, to oppose his Majesty's Ministers. This he found himself compelled to do in the pre sent instance. If there were any mischievous feelings in the minds of the people, he was much afraid that they would be aggravated and augment ed by being rot up under the restrictions of this Bill. It was because he disapproved of the mea sure altogether, and had hopes that altogether it might be thrown out, that he would rather vote for its having the longer than the shorter run.— (Hear, hear,- hear !)-1-le would only vote for tire longer period, because be feared, that if the shorter were adopted, the fetters imposed by the Bill would he rivetted on the nation for ever. Mr. CARTWRIGHT differed from his Hon. Friend who had just sat down, as he conceived time Bill went to. protect the rights and liberties of Bug, lishmen, which were now endangered by disaffec tion and popular commotion. He thought the Bill ought not to be passed merely for a short period, and that it would be ineffectual if its pro. visions were merely of a local character. Mr. WILBERFORCE rejoiced that the Bill was not to be a permanent measure, and felt tnuch obligtal to the Noble Lord for consenting to-make it merely temporary. It was one of the .peculiar blessings of our Constitution that Parliament were enabled in dangerous tunes to arm the Exe cutive with extraordinary powers, and, when the storm had passed over, to revert to our approved and ancient system. He could with very great difficulty have reconciled himself to the ineastoe as a permanent law ; but passed only for one year, he was ot Opinion that it would do no good, but would be found a great evil. If the danger were so great as to justify them in passing such an Act at al!, they ought. to pass it for such a period as would be likely to cover the-danger. Not-doing this, they would pay the price of the longer period without obtaining the benefits which it offered. Feeling this, he could not but wish that its (lure lion. should not be confined to three years, but should rather extend to five. He was of opinion that it ought not to - be made merely local, 4s to do this would .be to defeat its object. It was be cause he valued the liberties of his Country, and thought them worthy of being preserved, that he Was disposed to concur in the temporary restric tions now proposed to be enacted. The Crown had not eueroached on the people, but when he saw turbulence like that lately witnessed, he felt