The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-21 00:00:00

1 ) , ess , pre pare.ory to ,era !Tort bite; 'nide to p et n down. He concluded by declaring it to h e his intention to give his vote most de cidedly against the present Bill, as well as against the measure for punishing the offence of libel with I reuishment e • . Mt. MARRYATT thought, that instead of its f►elog►a eecommendatioe, it was a great objection to ( b e Bill, that it punished the printer and pub lisher, while the most guilty party, the author, was not touched by it. The printer was gene rally the innocent and unconscious instrument of the author, and therefore to punish him was con trio y to common 'sense, and to the ordinaryesrac e tier (if that House. It was only in the last week thata printer, on being br oug ht b e f ore the House, and giving up the author of an offensive o.k, sees immediately liberated, while the au thor was incarcerated. He objected to this Bill generally. He did • not deny that it container) enotte good provisions. He approved of the pro, posed seizure of libels wherever they could he totted, and could wish this adopted as their own, and ti.e rest- of their measure as sent from the Lords, rejected altogether. Mr. DENMAN said, that the House was now en . fel ing on a new branch of the inquiry set on foot by th e measures proposed by Ministers, and they 'Were now called upon to do that which went to Chang e the whole law of England, so far as re garded the Press. If any thing could give addi tional importance to the discussion, it was the ° Pinions expressed by a Learned Serjeant, and the Member for Somersetshire, in favour of the bill. For if these moderate men, who held, as it were, the balance between the two great parties in that House decided for the measure, it appeared to him that those who washed t o defend the pupa.. lar rights misfit as well abdicate their functions and leave the whole business to the If they compared who , lied fallen from those respect able Gentlemen this flight, with _what had been said on fernier occasions, it was mortifying to see how public opinion was lowered and the rights of th, people frittered away, their attentions Lein e eall,d to sliedows while the substance was 1 " 51 . It was difikult to separate the two Bills Pow in the House, but the importance of both demanded that each should be attentively con sitier,gi, arid would therefore endeavour to con floe himself to that immediately before them.— The House would see that the present Bill was introduced to them on a perfectly new pliueiple, that led directly to an imprint:attire. lie called Art the House not to he misled by an idea that if Passed, the Bill would have but little effete, for thou t sh inefficient for the purposes for. which it . 16T to be pass e d, i t wou ld place respectable feoeksellsrs in a situation which they never c antentplated when they first entered into business. T hat the . bookseller should find se curity for 3001. was not in itself very injo ' ?lou se but the prin c iple was sufficiently formid "le, and. bad a tendency to lead to still more arbitrary measures. One clause in the Bill was in high degree alarming;---that which gave a Jus tice of Peace on tile oath of one pet son, the right of doing a violent act, which was in fact to be .imposed on him as a duty. He contended, that th e odious duties about to he thrown on Magis trates, would do away that, in praise of which so stench had been said —our unpaid Magistracy ; tor when the present panic had passed away, bi— rtependent Gentlemen would not submit to such fatigue, and persons must be called to supply their place who would expect salaries. He hoped Cntlemen who had supported GovernMeurefsel -11";-; something must be done, woidd pause, when t hey reflected what had already been clone be fore they went farther. A Bill bad been passed 'hich went ahncet to annihilate all public meet ings......and one tvliich authorized the seizure of 1 7 111 3 by day and night in s eventeen count i es o f 4 engla n d,. and that too its words so large and in definite, that a:;y house [night he entered within thes e districts on the oath of one informer. That 14)0 had been done which he thought an improve ett)ent in the law, but which g a v e G overnment t h e Power of bringing an offender to trial without ' lO, l. Why had the trial of Castile been de erred till October, 1819, but because such a Bill 11 ""s not in existence Having given Ministers )melt powers, enough had been done to enable t hem t o p e ni s ) ) offenders under the existing laws, ' Lich as yet no Juries had bee n f oun d unw illi ng allrninister. Because, Mr. Hone had been ac cl"itted by one Jury, who could fairly contend Mr. Guide !mist be acquitted by another ? ""t it any doubt remained on this subject it had slo ts' neee completely removed, and the verdicts ftf successive Juries had declared that blasphemy ns au offence against the Jaw of the land, 7hich it was their duty to put down. No im ttustioris on t hi s , as on former occesions, h a d e to cast on the Court of King's Bench;. but, e the c o ntrary , on a ll h an d s i t was coutessed " : dt the c on d uct o f t h e Court on that occa iwn, had d one much to exalt the jurisprud ence 6 1 the country. If there were one circumstance t" 411 others to which the sinking liberties of this eottetry might look up with hope, it was to the Osiris y of the administration of justice in our so t/Ictior Courts of Law, It was not the same with ts Peet to the Magistrates. If ever there was a iiPeriud in which th e s u p er i or C ourt was exalted, 'd the Magistracy of the country degraded in r ev 9hiic estimation, it was during the three wombs thin which the conviction of Carlile, and the r o eeeditigs consequent on the Manchester Meet ,el;ie took place. lie then noticed the proceedings that day, and contended, that aft e r th e t h an k s V ell to the Magistrates for their conduct, it was 11 : 11 9Ckery to bid the suffereis appeal to Juries of , L 'ir country, after such a violation of the Con et:ution h a d t a k en pl ace. H e now desired to 14 ` ) At if any Hon. Gentleman would point out e re i tiM, in the legal hi s t or y o f E ng l and, Any ijeedent f ur t h e secur i ty now required.— 4, irl ever any man hear that a person to t : tried f or an i n d e f i n i te offence, which hest hitt, to an indefi n i te fi ne , an d to intlefi e i mprisonment, should be called upon to"take ePgrson to one' of the Govern ment Offi ces, en d here' is my ftiend, Mr. So and bo,. who s , ' tie bo un d i n suc h a s o w mostey in case I ""id commit or such au offence." The si lt: urealre contended, w ou ld not prove benefi let might succeed in alie nat i ng t h e m i n d s of Pt "l'ley but its (Aber ropeets it would tail us completely as any th:ng that could be decided the most absurd dabbler in legislation. lie ap proved of the principle of imposing a stamp upon cheap political publications, but he cautioned Gentlemen against going further, lest they should find, when trio late, that they, had dune what they could wish recalled. He denied that the laws were insufficient to repress blasphemy and sedition. Not ling would more e ff ectua ll y check the ev il than the present laws, unless in deed they went to the extreme length of holding a dagger to the throat of every man suspected of intending to write a libel. Nothing short of this would do, for the pen would still be held, arid the hand that held it could not be prevented from moving, notwithstanding the Bill that it was now proposed to pass. But the present laws were fully competent to repress the evil. This was seen in the case of Carlile. IVhere was he ? Did lie cmitique to publish ? Nn, In 1818 nothing was done against him ; in 1819 he was prosecuted and cast, and now ill') Dorchester gaol ; for sonic years at least he was prevented from sending forth his lucubrations as formerly. In France, measures like those now resorted to had failed to put down the publications against which they were directed. Supposing a person now to be banished for a seditious libel, he might easily establish himself on the opposite coast, and there, where paper and printing were much cheaper, could it be doubted that he would want the means of publishing his sentiments and of sending them into England, with all the merit of martyrdom attached to them ? This he had no doubt could be easily accomplished ; and therefore, under all the circumstances or the case, though willing to place cheap political publications on the same footing as newspapers with respect to the stamp duty, he felt it a duty he owed to his country to call upon the House to pause before they did more. Dicx.stssoN explaieed. Mr. BANKEs, after observing that the measures which had already received the sanction of Parlia ment wet e esseotially necessary for the preserva tion of the public tranquillity, added, that the Bill before the House went to the correc , ion of that which, in his opinion, was the main spring of all the existing es il—namely, the abuse of the Libeity of the Press. The Honourable Geode man then entered into an historical review of the state of the press, and of the legal restrictions upon it, doe a to a period subsequent to the Re volution, and maintained, that in no former age did the licence of the press bear any resemblance to that which existed at the present period ; and that it had been repeatedly subjected to restraints much more severe than those Dow contemplated. What good could possibly proceed from publica tions such as iho,e by which the Country had lately been infested ? He asked those Honourable Gentlemen who opposed the Bill, whether they did not conceive that the greatest mischief must re sult from the practice of reading such publications to a multitude of persons congregated in a field, in an alehouse, or elsewhere ? He would ask any agriculturist in d ie }louse, whether he wished to have die contexts of such publications itopai tell to his labourers ? He would ask any manufac turer in the House, whether he wished to have . the contents of such publications.impirted to his workmen ? Could that be good for the whole community which was not gOod for particalar classes ? Could that be good which tended to de stroy the present comforts of all, and which led to consequences the most de;lily to be lamented of any that could befall the human race ? It was the duty of Parliament--a pressing and imperative duty —to lay the axe to the root oldie evil;•to suppress the press—he meant the abuse of the press— abuse which, if not suppressed, would ere long overturn every establishment in the country. No -institution, however wise or valuable; no Con stitution, however venerable or sacred, could bear to be constantly brought into contempt, and loaded with slander by every base and des perate scribbler, who, without compunction, scattered abroad his virulent and destructive poison. One great source of the evil—and in say ing so, he was aware that he differed from many persons, for whose opinion lie entertained the highest respect, and above all, from an Mo. and Dear Friend near him—but to him it appeared that one great source of the evil was the extent to which the general education of the Lowe; classes had been carried—(Hear, hear, hear !)—and which certainly tended to the establishment of a state of society not contemplated in former rimes. To enlarge die understantliirg of die people—to give them capacities for the reception of know ledge, was worse that) useless, unless especial care was taken what kind of knowledge was commu nicated to them. Those who had a capacity for good, had also a capacity for evil. The tniadhief of erroneous knowledge was, that it set those men by whom it was obtained above contronl ; and that it made diem conceive themselves wiser than those Rimini! them, either because they knew more or believed lest. This was the mischief ; and it behoved the Legislature to take great care what issued from the press at a period when the peo ple at large were so capable of comprehending the information —salutary or pernicious —that was im parted to them. The existing situation of things in that respect bad never before been,known in any age or country. To a new case slew reme dies must be applied. Parliament were adopting the best measures that were suggested to their minds. If he had any doubt on the subject, it was whether those measures would be effectual— whether they went far enough.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He eoutessed that he was inclined to go much further; for he altt ays considered that it was much better to endeavour to prevent crime than to punish it %%len committed. Mr. ArtenCROMBY contended, that the argutnent of the Right Honourable Gentleman, that the Press was once under greater restrictions than at present, and that therefore the people had no claim to die privileges they enjoyed, Might as well be applied to the Habeas Corpus Act, and every other Act that guarded our liberties. How ever the Right Hon. Gentleman might regret the progress of education, the friends of that great measure might rest assured that it would never be in his power to check its course. Since the Right Honourable Gentleman could doubt whe ther these measures went far enough, he did not know but it might be more than accident that occurred on- a former night, when a Noble Lord had told :list( that forsooth '' be did not mean to take trout them Trial by Jury." He aihnitted in the largest sense, that the Liberty of the Press had been most scandalously abused—thet it had been used as an engine to render every thing; that was respectable the object of contempt, arid to Insubordination, that might in tire end lead to confusion, and posSibly to despotism But admitting this, (lid he necessarily come to the couclusio o that new laws were necessary ? He most first ask if it had been proved that 'the ex istiog laws were insufficient ? -Would it be stated that Juries acre so intimidated as not to be able to perform their duty ? If this were asserted he would not believe it. Would it then be said that they were so imbued with the principles of the seditious, that they woulsl trot discharge their dory? He was convinced that was not the case ; and he trusted that the House would not act on mere assertions, but on experience. Let it be put to the test, whether. a Jury would acquit anyof those who had really libelled the King, the Thtotie, and the Constitution ; and if they did, then he might he brought to aekoowledge the necessity of a mea sure like the present. As the ease now stood, the Act proposed did not go to remedy a defect in the laws, but one in the administration of those laws. If the House legislated without following expe rience as its guide, it would abandon its duty, and act in a criminal manner. It was said, and lie did not deny it, that seditious publications had lately increased. The reason lay in the single word impunity.—(Hear, hear !)—lf the Law Officers of the Crown had acted as they ought to have dope, and the laws had been properly car ried into execntion, he was convinced there wonld have been no necessity fur measures like those now proposed. Mr. liststseT did not think those measures, alarming as they were, so alarming as the speech of the Hon. Member for Corte Castle. In his search after precedents, he might have gone to the times of the Plantagenets. lie might have .quoted the Act of Henry VIII., which gave that Monarch power to enact laws without the aid of Parliament. In all the Hon. Member had said, he thought Ire Mot seer) such a principle lurking, in his mind. And what had been his doctrine with respect to education? Had that Honour able Member taken the trouble to enquire, even in the neighbourhood of Corte Castle, be would have found that nothing contributed so powerfully to the morality and religion of the poor, as education. He well knew. the insi dious ways in which it had lately been at tempted to check the education of the poor.— But be would 'not have believed it possible, it it had not been his misfortune to hear it, that an Hon. Member should rise in his plase, and say,, that the edrication of the poor was at: evil, arid that the remedy which he wiB;od to apply was ignorance. lie lamented tr;at he should have met with a Member of that House who war ld tike away such a blessing, whikt the hint, jibe was allowed to name lnitn, with that feeling which dis played the excellence of his heart, always expres sed a wish " to see the day when every poor child in his dominions would be able to read his Bible."—(Hear !)—Yet the Honourable Mem ber wished them all to he shut out from that great inlet of knowledge and happiness !--(H e ar !) With respect to the Bill before the House, he believed that there were shops in most of the large towns where seditious publication' were sold, but not to the extent which was represented, He had seen a statement of the sale rat Cathie's pub lication in the counties of Lancaster and York. The first week its circulation amounted only to a few hundred copies. After notice of the prose cution had been given, curiosity led to the pur chase of greater numbers, and in a fortnight they amounted to 1500; but since he bad given up po litics for blasphemy the sale had considerably di minished. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (the Attorney-General) had thought pro per to say on a former night, that it was not in the power of his Majesty's Law Officers to carry the laws into effect. He lied declared that the acquittal of Mr. Hone had encouraged the writing of libels. Now this assertion was most marmot& ed, for there were feWer libels in 1818 than in 1817. They decreased not only in number but in quality, and no prosecution was instituted. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had 'also said that Mr. Hone's acquittal had satisfied the Govern ment that no protection was ro be expected from the verdicts of Juries. But could any impartial man be •so easily satisfied ? Mr. Hone had been acquitteo, because he had shewn that the intent of blasphemy did riot apply in his case, and be cause he had proved that the highest person s i n the State had used the principle of parody to ope rate upon political topics. The persons who had given him their - countenance had been blamed ; but it the Hon. arid Learned Gentleman meant to insinuate that those persons had any intention of countenancing blasphemy 1411(1 sedition, when they gave Hone their support, he was not justified its so doings_ They had countenanced Mr. Hone, because they thought he was the victim of an hypocritical prosecution, that but ill-disguis ed the design of persecution.—(Hear, hear. • hear !) —But those persons had, at least, what the friends of the HOP. and Learned Gen tleman could not boast, consistency of political character. As to the clause imposing a stamp duty on cheap publications, he objected to it be cause it would repress the sale of good and use ful works. It was well known that our best his tories were circulated in cheap numbers through Out the couutry, because taxation had deprived the people of the means of purchasing Ilia whole at once. This branch of trade and information would be immediately closed. He contended, that the regulation would not he effective to its owl, object, for that Cobbett's Register bad sold three times more when the price was one shil ling than since it heel been at two•petice. Ho-- stamped cheap publications could not easily find their way to the country ; but if the stamp was once affixed upon them, they could go free by the post. As to the last clause, be maintained that it was quite novel in Legislation to impose a penalty 015 an individual before lie was con victed of any offence. The amount of the re cognizance wool , : be 6001., for, though fixed at 3001. for the printer, there W 69 no doubt of his being obliged to give equal security to the pen son who wuuld be his own s. entity. TWO was putti n g down all cheap publications, and leaving the press open only to the rich. It was abolishing the right of every Englist:man to write and publish whatever he liked, subject to the responsibility of his own writings. When Honourable Geo(lemen talked of the principles of the Constitution and gave'their votes against them, be could net help telling them that their theory was betf er than their practice, and that they would rue the day when they had enable:! Ministers to make fortune a test by which Englishmen were to be allowed or deprived of the right of publishing their opi nions. Mr. Wtemor considered the dangers of the country sufficient to warrant a temporary snspee sion of what bad beets hitherto regarded as form ing part of the Liberty of the Press. He thought it was the duty of the House to interfere and to protect the morality of the Poore Seditious writers accused the HottSe of indiffereuce towards the Poor,.and of using bribes and corruption.— But what did they do themselves ? Did they not bt : ibe the Poor, not indeed with gold, but with the promise of a video age, which could never be realized ? And could the continuance of such de lusions be permitted He was convinced that the Liberty of the Press would be more secured to our posterity by the proposed restrictions, that, if it were left open to the abuse of the seditious. Mr. Aldermen WAITHMAN stated, that the ap prehensions which he entertained of the measeres proposed, hail not been removed by any or the arguments used on the other side of the Hoese. They bed confirmed him, on the contrary, in rhe. opinion, that those measures were but plot of 4 SySteni, and that if they were adopted, they would soon be followed op by others. He then deteed ed the conduct of Mr. Hone, on the same grounds as Mr. Bennet. He objected to all the Bills be fore the House, as he thought the existing laws sufficiently . effectiee. He also maintaioed that it was doubtful whether °tie of the most atrocious publications tvas not secretly Supported by his Majesty's Government. Dr. PHELLIMoRK telt himself impelled to give his vote for the two measures before the 1-lonse, by a strong sense of their necessity. lie con ceived, that instead of impairing the rights of the subject and the Liberty or the Peels, they would serve to sustain them, end transmit them midi mitiished to posterity. No Constitution could re sist attacks carried on like t he present 1'11(1,r its own principles. In civilised society, res7raints and liberties must necessarily vary with circum stances. Ile then coutended, that the (,lance in flicting the pueishutent of bauishment teas nu in novation in the E Wish laws, end proved that by the 39i!) of Eliz fbeth it was enacted, that , - eotes as were dangerous to inferior peo !•le sitotdd Itc t).lHo•iii!..'—(l - lear, hear, herr!)— I's oat the best . es , :Hilaiion which he could take of the measures, thee reee:eteci to him calculated to rescue invaluable rigiii6 fc . ;“ii those who fei:ih ed to invade them ;,and to preserve titet , e fisti tutions which had made this country so gsee: end so glorious. 'Mr. T. WneeToN wished to put the following question to the Noble Lord oproFite (Lord C4S. tiereagb).—lf booksellers whose house consisted of six partners, were to he convicted for the se cond time of tiering published a sedit boos libel, would the whole firm be sent into banishment, or only the senior or junior partner ?—(Laughter.) The Howse then divided— Fur going into the COM Against it 7 G -146 On our return we round the House in the Com-- mittee. • On the cleose requiring Recognieances, ilr. MeRRYAT said, that lie considered it very hard ..es a man of small property that he should be required, not only to give security of 3001. for himself, but to procure another to the same amount. Publishers generally begat' with small means, and if this clause were passed without any modifications, it would consign them to positive ruin. Who would become security for them, when the nature of a libel was not even de fined ? The effect would he to throw the whole trade into the hands of a few opulent - individuals. This was, t hereto, e, in his Opinion, a most op pressive and unjust attack on the sights -of the subject. This measure presumed a man to be guilty before be committed any crime, The result would be that no persons of stnall capitals could .en gage in printing, and the whole trade would be thrown into the hands of large monopolists, and at such an expense ono as would injure them in the competition with foreign printers. It would also he prejudicial to literature, since authors could not,' under these circumstances, expect the same fair remuneration for copy-rights as they worth! otherwise obtain. On these grounds he moved as an •Ausendment, that the words in the Clanse, '' together with two or three securities," be expunged. Mr.' WA ITH MAN spoke on the .same side, and • argued that those s e em iiies would be imp o . s ibl e to be got. It they had existed before, they would haVe prevented suc h tt man as Dr. Franklin from coining forward into public life. Mr. IV. SMITH objectcUto - the wording or the Clause, as it Went to prohibit all publications which gave coinmercial, scientific, and philoiol.hic information. .Ir. kVHARTON supported - the clause, and ob served, that t 13:11 e r more misunderstood than the present. It was argued as it it was aim ed at all printers, whereas it. was only applicable to publications which affected the Church or State. As for its hindering persons of no means and of indifferent character from engaging in this trade, he conceived this to be its.great recommendation. It was seen that the Party. .Newspapers conducted themselves with decency, and did not injure the morals of the country; but those publications which emanated.from persons of no reaponsibility were calculated only to outrage decorum, and undermine every good feeling in the country. Mt. W. SMITH instanced a paper lately circu lated with an account of the distresses in the Scilly Islands, in order to excite charity towards those sufferings, as a sp.:cies of publication which would have been proscribed by this Bill. The ATTotsNt3y.GENEHAL replied, . that the clause referred to publications for sale that were delivered gratis, The Bill generally applied only to what were Newspapers under the for. aler Act, It had. been 61 - 46, that it .introduc- m art fg" - a ,e (bin/ 44. the Or frOKS ;he 1 - 10 0 °_, tsore 41 0 ' lid esse 9l 4 Ike awe oil . 114 first cs-oe •efore 1 14 I 4 lit { Ol the voti 4 few oil 42 tiny were , e thro.6o l )1; utry duty panic is :visa, tri a be let° be •4n was .'4 ti 41° :el of $ objec t mytT iof le sing tett: e" E sr a 1 R ar' ob" m -- erl -ts ng Iu ill the v,er could,bao. ill he - of• d se' a gig' iduc l 'base n o r : ty °' rat.