The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-23 00:00:00

heed vii lied it It rem 1 theta ex/;t:4' pr6;per ice. )j ect ed irter. po wet' counts Ale tat "'cilia n stet. !CCI e DWI COMIC. tla RIC ;(I that a b,,reett hit 3 rela‘ 1060 year's r's iil' Only S 'le the )01. to I were It Sol 'ectorl 0 coil' their ntroti! 17 110 !d idatC T le wail ted is at 0 4 deal sultif‘ as ac". iat of 16berl 6 sto tecl 104 iliiao ° hstio° (I, til ° at 1.0 Je bl's this dekPleat ion teas- in the item of Customs ; and there were several circumstances which led to this result. It had been well .kirown, that there %liras to be a consolidation of the Custom Duties to the sth of July, and, consequently, every one who, had goods was anxious to clear them by that date. The extra quantity cleared in the preceding quarter, naturally diminished the amount of the next quarter. He ought also to notice, as another reason, the great stagnation in the foreign trade. The exports, in ISIS, fell short by 7 millions of the exports_ in 1819, and the imports of necessity fell off in a similar pro poi tion. But he was prepared to state as his. firm totiviction, that there was nothing alarming in these circumstances. It was not by the Customs, *which applied to external o p erat i ons , -b ut t o t h e txci4, which measured . internal consumption, 'Get they were to look for the criterion of t he na t►otr's prosperity. In the Excise there seemed to be n o diminution, and this proved that the 'actual consumption of the country was as great as ever, than which there could be no surer sign . of its welfare. With leave of the House, he would lay befor e it a short statement on this point, com ing the average consumption of the three years, up t o 1818, with the cousumptiou of 1819. - In the former the consumption of Tea was..lbs. 21,629,000 In the latter Being an increase of Of Tobacco and Snuff, 1818 1819 lialt.was not vel made up. Of British arid Irish Spirits, 1818 1819 Increase Of Wines, 1818 .. 1319 Of Rum, Isis 1819 Of Brandy aed Geneva there was also an increased ezoa semie i on o t Cendl s, to a contiler, , hle *mount; Leal her, an increase of dory of 10.0001 ; snil Salt, 12,0001. These facts, in his opinion, not only afro/ ded the hest hopes f.f a steady re- Venue, hot also proved that the local.. distress (wbieh rio one regretted more than he dUI) had trot affected the general comforts of the people, aince it vas evident that more of those things hicA were necessary, to their etijeyment were coloormed no w ; ban at any preceding period.— They also afforded notch consolatton tor the par• tie' failure 'in the Customs ; and before be cone chided what [tetrad to say on this subject he would mention one other item, the more seto.factory, as it also showeil a n increased employment of the peo ple, nentely,printed calicoes,on which the augmen -tation was 50 .0001. It further afforded him pleasure to b e able to say, that since the 10th ot October, both the Customs and the Excise hail improved, and gave reason to expect that the produce 'll6- i:irately would he equal to !bat of the largest year. —(Hear !)—lt he did not produce any statements to evidence this to the House, it was because any broken part of a - quarter twist he imperfect, and Might lead to conclusions which e-ould not be realized ; hut the fact, to the presetit period, was as be bad assured them ; :red up to last Saturday the revenue was only 150,0001. short of the preceding year.—( Hear, hear, hear !)—With re spect to the arrangements with the Bank, the lion Membev had ,hewn no reason for the inter fereeee of the House. was not usual in pending neg. , ciations of a diplomatic nature to interfere, unless there was a well tonnded suspicion excited Against the proceedings of the Government. He bad an ohjectiOn to it also, on the ground of its produci,g, though lit' knew the imputattoe could Dot apply to the Hon. Mover, stock-jobbing ope irations. Of the emonet•for which funds had been provided by Verlieurent, a large soot lead been paid to the Rank, and measures were in progress to pay the whole amount before the sth of April. With re spect to the actual amount in the Exchequer, no ififorniation could be ascertained on that head, as it was the duty Of Government to keep the cash low for the sake of the interest. In respect to She other motion of the Honourable Member, lie bad to state, that no advances had been Made on the land and malt taxes. There re- Mahled one other subject on which he wished to offer a few observations. A sensation of alarm bad been excited ie the public mind, relative to the transrer of capital from this to foreign coun tries—to France particularly. After the best in quiries he was able to make, he. believed that these transfers were neither very considerable in amount, nor likely to be permanent. The best inoot of their not being extensive as to amount %vas, that they had not affected the exchange be tween the .two countries. • That they were not likely to be permanent, he believed, when ite was . tenerallv known that an Englishman having in 'vested money in the Frencle funds; had no power diepoeing of thit property on . his death by will. It went to his children, no matter what might Pave been his testamentary disposition. The Light Honourable Gentleman, in support of that referred to the work of Monsieur Le emits on the laws of Fiance, and to the work of 11 r. Bristead, of America, who, in adverting to that fact, had attributed the preeminence of Engla u d to its law of priMogeniture, and its Power of testamentary disposition. The Right Honourable Gentlemau proceeded to say, that 'hether, he was right or wrong in the doctrine Le advanced, the subject was only collateral with that which was before the House, and he should lit clown, repeating his determination to - oppose the motion. Mr. Eeeics replied to the observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Last year he had riliew n that be was anxious to fix the time of the Payments by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Bank ; and be bad wished to do it without reierence to any atrangements agreed to between the Bank and the Right Honourable Gentleman. -- --Bei ng told, however, that a payment of 1,2 00,0001. was effected, he declined any fur- I her . , interference in the s u bj ec t. R umours , however, were afloat, as to a method of paying t he Bank, not at all creditable to the Govern *neut. It was stated that a sum of money due t ram abroad, ,and secured in the French Funds, W as to be applied to .the payment of the This might be a mistake, but it would be better for the Chancellor of the Excite tiller to explain the whole circumstances. .There Was another point on which he differed from the s tatement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had liito(ioned as a proof of the prosperity of the re %elitte, that not above 152,0001, of the new taxes had been received, which were included in former returns. Now, what deductiOn could he had from this, but that the country, already severely depress ed, had still to undergo the pressure of three mil lions of new taxes, with the abatementofls2,oool. He looked on that merely as something which threatened more distress. It was the misfortune of the Right Hon. Gent. always to state too little or too much. Being applied to for explanation, the Right Hon. Gentleman had declined it, for fear of encouraging stock-jobbing. Nothing could so effectually encourage it as the latter part of the speech of time Right Hon. Gentleman. As to his argument of people being deterred from investing their money in French Funds, because in case of their decease their property 'coullt only be divided . according to the law of France, it would be found to have no effect. • Mr. LUSHINOTON contended, that there was n increase in the consumption Of tea, and that the last qqaeter's revenue was better than the cor responding quarter of the preceding year. With respect to the new taxes, it the Hon. Gentleman would only take the .trouble to read the Acts, he ,eould see that those taxes could not have been raised within the time he expected. They were to be raised on articles to the traders in which long credits were generally given. From the Malt Duties, for instance, 1,500,000/, was expected to be raised, but it could not be got in by the Act before the 15th of January next. The arguments founded by the Hon. Gentleman on such imagi nary defalcations, were therefore manifestly lacious. - There were other items to which the same explanations might be given. Eeetco explained. , Mr. GRENYCLL I hollgikt it unwise, unnecessary, anti .inexpedient, to interfere between Govern ment and the Bank. Parliament had appointed the 5 - 11 of April for the close of that transaction, and there were no grounds for taking. it out of the usual course. He was well satisfied to hear that 1,200,0001. had been paid, and ready to leave tie rest to Government, as originally in tended. illr fitcAano agreed that the House would act unwisely were it to interfere between Government and the Batik ; but it was a very different thing ,to interfere and to ask for information, which was all that this motion did. As for the promotion of stock•jobbing, of which the Rigt►t Hon. Gentleman seemed afraid, hat was done best by secrecy, end not by an (men exposition of the real state of the revenue—it flourished on the acquisition of intelligence by a Few, and not on information being equally g.yen to all. The Right Honourable Gemleman had argued that the rate of the exchanges was a perfect proof of there having been no important transfer .of property to foreign countries but he begged to say that this was by no means so certain an evidence as was assumed. Capital might go out of a country without affect ing the exchange, which was only the case when it went out in the shspe of hills. But large con signments of trirrebaptfise might be trade and sold abroad, and the produce invested in foreign lalld or securities A regular account of exports and imports would therefore be necessary to complete the proof of the exchanges ; but such au account Was not to be hoped for, as since the Uniorr with Ireland, the statements made up in that country and in this severally concurred, each in ascribing the Balance in favour of the country where it was framed. He would vote for the motion. Mr. KIN NAIRD ascribed the rumours circulated concerning the revenue to the ignorance in which the public was kept. The reports about the pay ment of the five millions to the Bank had had the effect of keeping down the Funds, which he sup posed the Right Hon. Gentleman would be glad to see higher. Anti stock-jobbing bad never such food as when speizulators could take advantage of the universal want of information to propagate the stories which answered their purposes. Mr. MABERLY replied.—He stated that it was notorious to all who were conversant with the public sales of tea, that there would be a deficiency of one million upon that article alone. A defi ciency was also to be expected on other articles, since it was well known that the malt disiillers did nor begin to work as soon as usual, and that 100 ; 000 bartels of beer less were brewed up to thi, time than to the sante period of last year.— Were not these manifest proofs of a diminution of consumption ? He did not blame his Majesty's Ministers for all this. They could not put money into the pockets cl the people in order to enable them to pay for th ese art i c l es , b e on l y bl ame d them for , not calculating rightly. The motion was put and negatived. Mr. MARE RLY then moved another Resolution, " for an account of all Exchequer Bills received in payment of duties from the Ist of July to the 21st of December." The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER again objecting to accounts embracing parts of a quar ter, and urging that the sth of January would cause these documents to be regulArly and offi cially produced, moved, as an amendment, to sub stitute the 10th of October for the 21st of De-. cember. A desultory conversation ensued, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Gi . eenfell, Mr. Tierney, Mr...Maherly, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Huskis son, and Mr. W. Cale►aft took part ; and the Op position alleging that Ministers might conveniently furnish documents, which was resisted merely from a disposition not to conciliate, pushed the question to a division— Ayes ... Noes ... 30 • Majority The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER'S amend ment was then agreed to, with which the origind mo ti o n wasputand carried. Some difficulty had arisen on a proposal to meet the wishes of the Mover by inserting the sth of January, but on our re-entering the Gal lery we found the Speaker explaining the diffi culty, in point of usage, of complying with this suggestion. If the account to the 10th of Octo ber was ordered, the order went forth to the proper Office, and the thing was done ; but if the sth January, a period to come, were agreed upon, it must be by a Resolution, and there was no precedent for this practice. Mr. MASERLY, after what bad passed said, he would not propose the motion we had intended, relative to public money, appropriated or unap• propriated. BRITISH PROPERTY IN THE FRENCH FUNDS. Mr. HUME gave notice that he would, to-mi)r. row, move for an account of all British property in the French Funds, which has been placed by the French at the disposal of the British Cri,vern ment, but which was not applicable by the•latter to the pAymeot of Brills,' claimants. NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES BILL. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Newspaper Stamp Ditties Bill. Air. BE AL said, he had this day communi cated with some highly respectable Booksellers, who Spoke of the recognizances demanded under this Bill. From their own condi.ion in life, the amount was of no conscrptence.to them ; hut they assured hitu that the effect would be to rnin a large class of Printers in the Country, whose means and capital were limited to . a small amount.. lie entreated the Noble Lord, for the last time, to remedy this defect, and save an industrious and useful body of men from destruction. Mr. G. LAMB felt that no apology for rising immediately after - his Hon. Friend was necessary, as it was the practice of the other side of the House, upon the discussion on all these measures, to suffer every argument and appeal to be address ed to them without giving any answer. As to the Bill before the House, he perfectly agreed with ,the Member for Corfu Castle (Mr. Banks), that if it passed, together with the other measures which so largely:infringed the convitotion, Black s!one, and all the other constitutional writers of his time, would soon grow obsolete. Of all the descriptions of literary speculators, the poetaster was the only one who should stand a chance of acquiring wealth ; but, he asked what would become of young men possessing great literary merit who might wish to set up papers of their own, and who might not be able to find friends to become sureties far them ? To a young man of this description, IA friend might say—" I nave the highest opinion of your honour, your talents, your integrity, and your discretion ; but you are einh.lted in a speculation, in which tie greatest care and the utmost that human vigi lance can do, will not protect you against time chance of being convicted for something that you shall write; and therefore I cannot insure against such a contingency." Had such a law as this ex isted in former times, many inert who had corn . - aKneed their career by writing for periodical pub lications, and who afterwards rose to honour and emoluments, would.' have been crushed in their first entrance upon the world, It would be recol lected, that some years ago, on the occasion of a petition bein g p resente d to that House on the ground of refusal to admit persons to be called to the bar, because they had been writers for the public press, many instances were stated of dis tinguished characters who had, in the early parts of their lives, been writers for newspapers ; and one of them was at that time a distinguished Member of the House, who now holds an im portant situation in the judicial department of the country. He would also put the case of such is man as the late Air. Burke ; if such restraints as were contained in this Bill weme laid upon him at his first entrance into public life, would the world have possessed that store of knowledge and of ge nius with which he had since enriched it ?—ln short, this Bill.would be a check upon every kind of talent. He felt more than usual interest on this question; the House was only now speculating on the opinions of men who supposed that the press did all the mischief complained of; bat he begged the House to pause before they stigmatise(' meo w' sirtue and talents—before they stigmatised all those who were endeavouring to extend the be nefits of education among the lower orders, and before they stigmatised all those who were drill ing and training the people in the practice of mo rality and religion. If the seditious and blasphe mous press was to be put down, was it necessary that the respectable people connected with the press were to he subject to penalties and hard ships, and some persons to total ruin ? Before he sat down, he should give notice, that after time Bill was read . a third time, he should move a clause to make it only temporary. ..Mr. Nice said, he had no objection to that part of the Bill which went to impose a stamp duty on certain publications ; but he had such strong objections to the other parts, that he was convinced they tended directly to destroy the liberty of the Press, and on that account he should oppose the Bill. A similar principle of giving extraordinary and tensible powers to the Govern ment prevailed throughout all the other Bills that were introduced into Parliament this Session. Already the right of petition had been greatly li mited, and now the people were to be deprived of their right of freely expressing their opinions. Mr. JOHN SMITH contended, that no necessity had been shewn by any Member on the other side of the House for this measure. It the Law Offi cers of,the CrOwn had shown sufficient vigilance in putting the existing laws in force against the propagators of sedition and blasphemy, there would have been no pretence whatever for such a measure as this. As to time provisions iu time pre sent Bill, he saw no necessity for them, and-he believed that they would have time effect of bring ing to ruin a number of individuals, who were perfectly innocent and meritorious men, and be could not, as an honest man, consent to such a Bill, unless a case were made out to prove that it was essential to the safety of the State. Mr. Coo as spoke in favour of the Bill. He thonght that so great anti general an evil as time present licentiousness of the press required wise met by a great and general effort of the law. Mr. CALCRAFT coinplained, in terms as — strong as the last speaker, of the licentiousness of the press ; but he conceived the coetion to be, whe ther the law in its present state was not stAcient to restrain that licentiousness ? Before such ex tensive and important alterations were to he as sented to by the House, he thought that it should be clearly shown that the law, as it had stood for the last 120 years, was insufficient for that pur pose. In 1818, no prosecutions whatever had been instituted against blasphemers and libellers ; but in 1819 several had ; and the very first of these, that of Mr. Carlile, had obtained a trim pliant verdict. Under these circumstances, he thought little credit was to be given to the asses tions of Gentlemen on the other side of the House respecting the inefficiency , of the otistiog • The Bill was. then read a third time, wri(bout a division. - Mr. BERSAL moved a Clause tendiUg to render the duration of the. Bill temporary. • Lord CASTLEREAGH assured the Hon. Member, who spoke last hut one, that if this Bill could be considered as destructive.. to the fr, edom of the press, he would admit that the Hon. Member had laid a sufficient ground for limiting its duration; but it was -his opinion, that it only went to pro , teet, and not to invade the freedom of the press, and .therefore be should resist the clause. His • idea of a free presS was, that any imlividnal -should be at liberty to express his opinions, sub ject to future responsibility ; but no One would say that persons to whom no responsibility could attach ought to have a reght to send forth sedi . .tiotts and blasphemous libels. The first principle in this Bill was, to bring all publications within the intention of the law, which said that they must be subject to a certain stamp duty ; and the second principle was, to attach a sufficient degree of responsibility to publishers. In both these the law was grossly evaded, and the object of the Bill was to prevent such evasions from taking place. - The system which the Government' went upon' was altogether a system of preveetion, and not of punishment ; and this was evident, from -the circumstance of the larger press of the coun try being exempted from restriction. Tice object of the seditious pert of the press was to oserturn the Government of the country, and it was evi dent, from the declarations contained in the pub lications _coining under that description, that such was the object of the writers. The first of the Resolutions now proposed was to lay a stamp duty on certain publications, which was only an act of justice to those who had - long con tributed to the revenue ; and he • hOped no Gentleman would contend that this regal ition ought to be temporary. With regard to tht securities, this Bill would not apply ro author ship ; it applied only to printers and publishers It would in Ito degree apply to the authors of works, unless the works were of such a description that printers would not take on themselves the respon sibility or publishing them. But it an author of a blasphemous or treasonable work wanted_ to sent; it into the witrid, he might find.an• indigent printer in a garret who would not hesitate to print and to publish it, and afterwards might run away from justice; and, therefore, he asked, would it not be fit that the authors should be responsible, or at least, that there should be a sufficient de gree of responsibility to operate - as a preventive against such a %cork appearing ? With the ca pital and industry that now abounded in the country, there would be no want - of authors or publishers ; and the business of printing and publishiug would continue in the hands of re spectable persons. It would drive indigent men out of the trade ; and then there - would he no desperate libellers, employing individual printers to act as their ins•rumetits in spreading their poi son over the country. The law already recog nised the principle of making men give security, for their svolkS ; and there was no regulation of the Bill which touched the freedom of the press— it was only following up the principle already adopted with stamped papers, of making the .printer enter his name and give security.— He wished to see the property of the country come Girth for the purpose - of conducting the press, and he answerable for the consequences of what might be sent forth to the public. No man, except one who was criminal and indigent, could object to enter into the necessary securities. The Noble Lord continued to say, that the prin ciple of securities tvelS long adopted in mercantile transactions, aOA that still it was no restraint on the application of capital WhateveT - ioconve rdence it might be to individuals, the public inte rest should be more attended to. He then alluded to the system of punishment, and contended, that as the degree of crime increased, so should the pti nisinnent be apportioned to it. The punishment - of banishment was not qui-e so great a novelty in the law, as had been said by Gentlemen at the other side. But,•admitting it was, - the Noble Lord con tinued, that it was not an argument strong enou g h to make against the - adoption of it, in imitation o f other countries. The restrictions of this Bill would not aff,ct authors, who were left entirely out - of the questiOn; it would only affect the book sellers, and there was a principle long recognized in the law, that every man was responsible for what lie published. He could not suppose a case so monstrous, as that put by art Hon. Member at the other side, that possibly, by some neglect on the part of his servants, a bookseller might be con victed a second time of a libel, and so be subject ed to the punishment of transportation. That would suppose, what this Bill expressly provides, that there was no discretion left with the Judges. On the whole, as he did nut think this Bill would make against the Liberty of the Press, he could not give the Clause his support.—(Hear, hear !) Sir JAMES AI- ,CKINTOSH said, that in rising he did not Mean to attempt to follow the 'exalar le of the Noble Lord, who had so largely disen`ssed not only the question befere the 1-louse, but had at ray ed to every topie within the range of his ienagina tioo as connected with it. Had he confined self more narrowly to the ques:ion, he ft It that he Would have been better able to meet him on a subject which demanded so seriously the delibera tion of himself and of the House. He was aware the'tiMe was past in which any thing he could say would he of service ; but inability alone had prevented him from doing this before. It there had been many prosecutions amid punishments under the existing IaWS, and the offences they were intended to repress were still persevered in, that would be a reason for - assuming the quacy of the existing laws. But this was not tits case, and if libel were punishable with dear h, it would be of no avail - if the punishment were not inflicted. Assuming, for the sake -of ar gument, that Juries were not disposed .to con vict, was it to be assumed that adding to the severity of the punishment would make them more disposed to return a verdict•of guilty against a defendant? He maintained that- it was not to be expected ; nor was it to be supposed, that, unde'r severer laws, it Would be easier to find proof a nd bring witnesses against an offender. That he jail 1, that ey had aimatt a.;.were Es had NOOI. Onued 11. pet would lion of ects of itnent ht hi, clan e neW these- :d ter Mat )M the should [le Item fluen t nowt nth of Duties s dials ondiag e a off ),0001. of Oe• eturtil jesty'S ulty in now/ ect t Iv ti icily on be- ,11 orvi• 'he :Aca ch 4!ters s, the fad illOtilet all, *1 {'fete;