The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-09 00:00:00

ttired Pcrs°llh ,rtiv part. Waff, :bieb r veil, b e4ce f e I ddeo B 'ls t • for the ilibre 0 , and, In to 6' 0 1 3 ' an • oleti , rnl, r Thar nts ' • , ith a hair occurrence, in her tc os, rs of t 'g One, stood net ighter. On put his a h .d_ s lse I ac Oa ;N T• 55. 8, EVENINi4 th e 0 . 1 Ireese cunt of the poor-rates, for the twenty years pre to 1836. H e thought they would show the !eald°u new view a l together of the question ; an d i t _eftiintlicate to th e H ouse, t h at if t h e commerc i a l rth lof the co untry i ncreased, that there ought to be eerease of the amount of relief bestowed on the Poor, 16 For the 14five years ending M arc h the 25tli ultl la 1819, the expenditure for the'Poor-rate 6,288,0001. ; •from 1819 to 1824, it was l Al,ooo/. ; from 1824 to 1829, 6,157,000/. ; and aroro 1 829 to 1634, it was 6,754,0001. ; and taking the ig e u ra . 3 f the first and last ten years, from 6 1814 to Irate' . 1 " annual expenditure averaged . 3 . 36 : 000/. ; ipleoterratiioB42444 to 1834,' 6,456,000/., showing in .he ten „ before the Poor:law Amendment Act came into in rati o ratio increasedid of 9,5001. The increase Now use would see was per cent. in ten years. c population increase? Why in th °of 16 per cent. In what manner did wealth in- C'e• Judging of that from the amount paid for legacy al p Why from 1815 to 1825 the amount was hei0'.31343?°. 01. ; from 182 5 to 1835 it was 382,577,0001., increase of 63,2141. in ten years, or at the rate (4 ,00 kt t h ° I- a Year. The increase of the property was „ _ e rate of 6,000.000/. a year, and Cae increase of the Poor-rat 6,000,0001. was 95,000/. a year ; and yet an outcry bad ah o l l raised th at the poor rate would soon absorb the *h o c P r° Perty of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Now Act as t• he operation of the Poor-law Amendment Plop ; Were its effects o n the feelings of the peo . Is ectioh eat law came b e f ore that House under the " a a Liberal Administration, it was proposed th e' ral Ministry, and it showed how cautious tsi ° llea to be in the use of terms, for he felt no hesi he.% in declaring that no Tory Administration would w og s Proposed such a law, and that if they had, they p?"o°ldriever have enacted it into a law. In 1818, a osittlirtoisitiloontiwegas made in that. House to give a right of to ratepayers. Ac t, called By an rated .1:08; Bourne's Act, the rate-payers, who were h aetdYmeaern,,steere entitled to give six votes in Pane law A siectioDe. What was the proposition under the Poo h r . - sill Act ? Did the Noble Lord by t to 14 n ele before the House propose to modify that sys of ratinw6ig ? How did he r e c on c ile the manner in 1 4 4 4 the right of voting was exercised in parishes in T i/ba trY with the manner in which he proposed that f Valerall'd be exercised by the Bill for the Registration o ti ie Ireland ? He (Mr. Wakley) could not o th e e i t l lt "ad the degree of liberality which appeared i Ore o ,l iee uei when everything that was illiberal was so 130 4 ; ite ° 1 1 displayed in the other. Under Sturges ae' s A At -scl.passed in 1818, an occupier who was rated Was d • lelaar WAS entitled to give six votes. What Pi t h of °4e by the P oor- l aw Amen d ment A ct ? Th at t , re W e e, " e11 "g from occupiers was transferred to non reti,l 'oners, and under the existing laws, the non ve,:eut o;mer could give by proxy six votes for the VeePtePerty which only enabled the occupier . to give f li6ertiNee. Was this just? Was it a specimen teh e It Y ? Was it the kind of franchise which ought f he, "'lied to them by a Reform Government ? If b. l. ; th e -At er sooner that Government was changed the r_ 44l d it be for the interest of the people.- 402 ° a, from Col. Sibthorp.) The public were cha h et ; " - ' 4 6 under. a delusion with reference to the . - Yasai:,,f!,he Government, and the sooner that delusion proear, the better would it be for the country.• 7 Prok elte t ,' ". e ar.) Indeed, the Bill of the Noble Lord did Pteiy, in th , ll °ftle measure to modify the right to vote by keen"hY.under the existing law he (Mr. Wakley) h undred "individual who, in one parish, put in sixteen t hat iof._! °t ea by proxy. The . Noble Lord proposed N ei. elute a man should only give twenty-four . proxy N s I What effect has this system of proxy voting, ana hadit„ s ,, tl lt of voting with regard to owners ? What effect it tuallyd• e' 'On the mass of the rate-payers ? Why, they were * etel 4 .• l'frauchised ; they felt it, they knew it, and they Th e , q 'Pant at the effect of the law upon their interests. Ilecii:„ l 'd„ , " Of what use is it for us to interfere in toe of eete,...' r• we are absolutely deprived of the right 41 0 " t he Plurality of votes which are given by richthese Greg dhY the voting of non-occupiers." Under tleetr oll ate e r eea they were absolutely indifferent to the ,r4At ter t guardians, and they felt no interest in the itk oohs ! l le (Mr. Wakley) could tell the House that teti n . leance of the operation of the law, and by r.e -44, -6 41)0n these things, they were becoming dissatis ilhet4t hea rt with their proceedings. They had no re -4k L ich ' the Legislature of the country ; and he would titti s leuet her this was a feeling which Conservatives were Ptiiii °l4 of seeing extended through the land ? The ee tit i e ' "std the Hon. Gentleman, the public are be -11 detached from the Parliament of the kingdom -3' fe e l proceedings ; they tell al e th an interest in your this li tt it is useless to present a petition to ead t h. °46 e---that they do present a petition now d 11.0. - ' 4 , but when it is presented not a w the Zed to be spoken upon it, and that , in t fact, o . Pel o !'le Proceedings of this House are adverse_ ve o rse p t e h Aoki n etts% adverse to popular interests, and ad we re feeling. Now, if the principles he had condemned hh. 40 : est obnoxious, if he did not feel them to be to th eit e u t ", Yet if the people as a body were opposed '"e might endeavour to express their feelings beass ese prittu4der.etned them to exist. But when he found these be d oubt !ere really obnoxious, when he entertained ' l %lO 0 ! their being hostile to the public interest, h t. e taeou ; ',.1 eat. 'ely wanting in his duty to his cons '- With ; 11 ." did not take the part he was now taking W4L'lnerence to the Poor-laws. I say, said Mr. ZeY, 415 a cold-blooded mercenary Act,—l say it is is 4 4 el hued on fierce and savage prinuiples,—l say it theeet calculated to lead to the misery and torture of i e t e,tvi ul? poor of this country, and, more than this, d l too ",. 111 ,,au Act calculated to excite the muscle and do g ot 4 °lland to resist the authority of Parliament. law, "hesitate helitate to predict that if you proceed with this . t his try to carry it out, you will produce in tosee--rtrY a feeling of indignation which nothing . u i s * di be able to resist . Are you prepared for this ? is Y o ur desire ? Sir, I do not believe that it is. It tn i 6 this su m conviction that this House has legislated on thati"trit thoughtlessly, and without due reflection— Put "I bean instigated to legislation by statements 10411 P I C • 14 ' 4 Y the Poor-law Commission, b.ase.d, tn.eapow s Hi:neasure, on fallacy—containing statisticaltabl this ouse !n to be untrue, and which deceived tp th e tt ad led it i nto false conclusions with regard toil ed rea.u,lt. Nov, the poor labouring man, who has day, h h i"Y or f orty years, and, at the end of every Self bad sc arce l y bread sufficient to maintain him lore " y a o u children, prostrates himself on his knees be- C%) and He appeals t o your h uman i ty , t o y our reli to Your l ove o f just i ce, an d as k s you, i n t h e It l aw vti.krad,to ret race your steps, and to act no longer on htei w h ic h is so savage in its nature. He states that after 414i t i l I" is well, and endeavoured to keep his 401 11 the workhouse—that having done his duty I "ei, ei ll ie ttei ghbour, and violated no law, he is unable to leecol,:::te:-.iteitticlihmildren, and implores you in the name of n " ook upon him with feelings of compassion, become the victim of the mercenary tAfiitlt?lCestiseonlieofdesire to make his poverty the ground punishment. I have witnessed cases farrowed to break the heart—l have witnessed the %tie c heeks of men who have attained the age of 61141. Years acting as Jurors, whose furrows were . leti ott wa h the tears of sorrow and grief at the desti- W„, °f the fallen creatures. They ask of me tt :" is Parliament about ? what do they desire? N o "'I wish the people to be murdered ?" say, liittn't Parliament is deceived—it is the desire of Per i ~t lt to do justice to the people. But still, Sir, I it-irlaot believed, because against my assertion there ar e °Peration of the New Law. They hear the one, but c ir i Pelted to obey ar.d to rt.flect upon the other. l ate r ? .11181 gra know what poor people in this country 01 1 , 4 , Does the Lord know what is the nature r „ Yale 1 Noble "iett. A, 4 , toil 'fake a boy, the son of a labouring t he D i t ,oe age of 15, dragging his feet, and toiling after t :"g" ; at 21, aye, at an earlier age (for I do not he, e , e ease at the worst) he fancies himself a man ; teei,_,rfirov, and reap , an d p l oug h, b ut t h e d awn o f ja O . ',""Y tell s hi m of misery and toil to be gone throughhgt ,'e t• to obt a i n his bread. No luxuries, no comforts, sad "astant fight waged between his physical body 4 4d 4. ° 7 1, (1 • The next day and the next it is the saFivs, lair a " of 60 he is broken down and palsied. 0 hin t Y betonles weary, and his toil more oppressive f the t ill ' al his energies decline. He passes the gate d o t o 411"7.r.b.0u5e, " There is my doom ;" and, in or cr the 6 : it more consolatory and gratifying to him, in kt tach ercise of your Christien humanity, a cemetery is la th e e 44 to the back of it ; so that, after being located the - o welflo g , his eyes may be regaled by the view of which cover the unfortunate beings these had gOne before him.—(Hear.) Day after day hszu_eyeestrecticotninsgare operating upon his mind. At last es e ,, L " en longer earn the value of his wages, and his on the principle of political economy, ti ' r ee vr i e '' , ray good man, I have lost by you the last di►ew. e o !`:. and I can't lose by you any more. I have kid 66 . a week (high wages in our neighbourhood) 4 i ell°. Ploy you any longer." "I am very sorry, thras.:4,lll,ll_°_Peenlyou will try me a little longer No," taerai lin :r f ler I can't, indeed." He applies to a the or th r e e relief. house." n h guardians ian Gentlemen,"s i n turn I p s li% °l4 e T into heyr—e tereali: have a cottage and a wife and let me r eply ? out, and allow me 3s. or 4s. a-week." The 4 4 0 18f' N °. We would be glad to do it, but the Corn- T he ee acting under the law will not allow us. tottehk•;°!Urnissioners sit in Somerset House, we can't ue • titer ° we can't reach them, we cannot control t eilue e • Assei, t. , en thesis. We should be delighted to com ae means Your situation, but we cannot. We have tire i t t : 8 01 overruling their authority. We would .o You, but we cannot." His hopes are at an 114,10.4ne cloud of despair from that moment over house-: at Man. He enters the gate of the work- Dort IL-4'll4th at that mossent that he has entered the ti lt of his t b• Now, Gentlemen, is that Chris legialet onl • 10 444 ion ? Is it the legislation of an assembly 44 7 really desire to see their fellow-countrymen of ~.4 * o f such, I ask, hear of the operation The • 1 ,‘, 8 nature, and yet vote for its continuance Pursult4ola L ord;Ministe Ministers, and men of wealth, whose the ~ I were entirely at variance with the feelings of %re?. c ould hav e no k nowle d ge of the cond i t i on of the fOr, if t h ey had, they would never support such a was the Poor -law Act. Many years a g o, he (Mr. Wakley) was in practice as a medics' man, and he had opportunities in that capacity of witnessing what was the condition of the poor in their dwellings. He saw their miserable huts—their horrid hovels. He had seen women who, when they ware agOnized by the pangs of childbirth, had not the accommodation of the Honourable Gentlemen's horses in their sta bles, or dogs in their kennels. 'Nat he Led witnessed a hundred and a hundred times ; at a period when some little luxuries were required, some comforts demanded, there would not be a single thing at hand—a little cold water, or small beer, or dry bread, being the only things which a Christian, under such circumstances, could be afforded. Were lion. Gentlemen aware of those things ? But it was told him (Mr. \Vakley) by the politic.il economists, that that law would raise the wages of the labourer. Well, they had bad it six years, and had it raised their wages ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers from both sides of the House.) Oh, then, there was a difference of pinion about it—there were cheers from both sides of the House. Semis gen• tlemen thought that it had raised the wages, some con sidered it had not. Would they by the operation of that law force wages up ? That was the question. Let thorn for one moment remember the ticklish ground on which they stood. They told the working people, they object of that law was to raise wages. But, he would ask, were wages raised ? He was informed they were not. It was his belief that they were not. He heard from various parts of England that they were not. He could tell them that in one county—in Devonshire —they were only 7s. or Bs. a-week. Was that raising the wages ? Did they wish that the agricultural labourers in that county should combine ? The mowing, season in June would soon arrive. Well, the farmer would say to the labourer, " John, the grass is ripe for cutting, you had better commence mowing in the mea- • dow below on Monday next." John answers, " Very true, Sir, I believe the grass is ripe, but we cannot touch it. on the old terrus—eve cannot take ‘.2s. now—we must get 7e. We have formed a little society—a union sort of thing—(r,ssughter)—and now we cannot put a soy the to the grass unless you give us 7e. an acre ; in three weeks the grass will be spoiled, but we cannot cut it for less, for we are told that Parliament has passed a law to raise our wages, and if we don't act thus we will be criminals ; we must save some money, but we cannot save if we don't get it to save." Well, the grass will be cut, and that difficulty got over. By and by the wheat, the barley, and the oats will become ripe and require cutting. the farmer says to the la bourer, " Come, John, begin the ricking." He replies, " No, Sir, not on the old terms. Parliament has told us that a law has been passed to raise our wages, and. we cannot work, then, on the old terms ; we would be criminals if we did." Was it the desire of Gentlemen possessing a great stake in the country to force men into such combinations, and destroy all the friendly re lations that might exist between the employers and the employed? If that were not their desire, their course was a most extraordinary one, for he could assure them that it would necessarily produce that effect which he mentioned. It was of no use to disguise the fact ; the opinion entertained by the people was that it was Hon. Gentlemen's object to deprive them of any relief either in or out of the workhouse. They might be right or they might be wrong in that opinion ; but neverthe less it was their opinion. Now, if that were not the object, what were their arrangements. Take, for ex ample, Kensington parish. How many relieving offi cers were there in that parish, which possessed 25,000 inhabitants, and was 16 miles in circumference —that parish bordered close upon the Court and upon the Palace, and was under the noses of the Commissioners. How many, then, were the relieving officers in that parish ?—One. In St. Luke's parish there were 40,000 inhabitants, and lately the relieving officer had indeed got an assistant. Good God ! did they mean to tell him that it was possible to give the poor the relief that they required under such a system ? It was impossible, and the people knew it. What was the lan guage occasionally held to the poor when they applied for relief ? What was the language addressed to the wife of a poor man when she applied for relief ? The officer said, " hang you " He admitted it, and by way of extenuation said that he used that language in a joke. In Kensington what happened in the case of Elizabeth Friars, whose name had been mentioned that night. A woman was sitting on the floor, worn out, exhausted, and with mortification in her legs.—(Hear, hear.) A poor Irish girl had given her shelter, and asked the union doctor to come and see her—he went, and the girl was alarmed at her being informed that she would be subjected to three months imprisonment for giving that shelter to the wretched creature. The relieving officer came in, and the poor woman was dying. The girl remarked that the medi cal gentletnen bad told her she should be imprisoned for three months for giving shelter to the woman, and what was his reply. " The doctor was right," said ho. These officers were to be sure reprimanded, but they were not discharged from their situations. But the Commissioners exercised a new function in that case. After the constituted authorities had made an investi gation of the facts—after the jurors of the neigh bourhood had been sworn to inquire into the circum stances and returned a verdict, and pronounced accord ing to the facts, what did the Commissioners do ? Why they sent down a gentlemen of their own, with directions to try by every ingenuity to get rid of the moral effect of the verdict which the Jury had pro nounced. In all such investigations the gates of the workhouse were locked. The rate-payers were not admitted—the reporters of the press were not admitted. The Board did as they pleased. They might punish, imprison, or torture, and the poor man had no redress. He was not permitted to go out —how was he to look for work ? How was he to ob tain the assistance of his friend? He was completely at the mercy of his tyrants.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr. Wakley) did not wish to say anything personally offensive to any Member of that House, but he was there to discharge an important duty. He bad the greatest opportunities of witnessing the operation of this law, and he had only now stated the facts which had come under his observation. The Commissioners and the Noble Lord had sanctioned the punishment of Lisney, by the guardians, who had been both his accusers and his judge. Had the Noble Lord bettered the condition of the poor people by this Bill ? The Noble Lord had added to the offensive power of the Commissioners over the guardians, which had been exercised in so tyrannical a manner that the gentlemen of England would not submit to the humiliations to which they are subjected if it were not from a wish to protect the poor.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Maidstone had moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six months, and he (Mr. Wakley) in se conding it, took the liberty of recommending the Nehle Lord not to allow the question to be put to the House, but to withdraw his measure at once—( Hear, hear) —to make way fot another Bill,to limit the Commission to two years and reduce its power.—(Hear, hear.) In such a Bill the Noble Lord would have an opportu nity of putting the Poor-law upon a rational basis. In the present state of the administration of the Poor-law there was no uniformity. Every union had its particular rules, and pretty rules they were. The Hon. Member then read an extract from the rules, in which leave was given to the guardians to allow a sepa rate room, under peculiar circumstances, to aged and decrepid people, on condition that they make a minute of such permission on their books, with their reasons for granting it—a copy of the resolution being trans mitted at the same time to the Commissioners, without which it should be invalid. Such was the condescrn siou of the Commissioners to the gentlemen of England who acted as guardians.—(Hear, hear.) He hsd shown by statistical details that the increase of the Poor-rates before this Bill had Lorne no propor tion to the increase of the national wealth.—(Hear.) Still the Commissioners said they had saved some millions by the alteration in the law. The truth, how ever, was that the Commissio' ers, in order to produce an appearance of saving, had struck out of the accou it every charge which they could have excluded. They omitted, for instance, the charges of Coroners; which had formerly been paid out of the Poor-rate, and which were now paid out of the county e rate. John Bull now paid with his left band what he formerly paid with his right. Tire reduction, therefore, was a deception. But after all had they satisfied the rate-payers? Let them ask the rate-payers what they wished for. Let the rate-payers be appealed to by an honest system of voting, and let them say whether they desire that saving at the expense of the comforts of the poor ; and what would be their answer ? Their answer would be that they would rather perish, that they would rather go them selves without their meals than the industrious and deserving man, worn out with age and toil, should be deprived of those comforts essential to him in his old age. They were opposed to the Malthusian maxim of the Noble Lord, who said that the object of the Poor-law was merely to prevent the poor from starving. His Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Kilenny said, on the other hand, that the ob ject of the law was to make a distinction between the deserving and the undeserving, between the idle and the industrious man, and he (Mr. Wakley) would go with his Hon. Friend. He would support any law which would lay that down as a principle. But he woald ask the Hon. Member for Kilkenny how he could support the law, when he saw what had been its operation, and when he heard the Noble Lord propound the course which the Commissioners ought to follow to carry it into effect. The Hon. Member concluded by second log the amendment. Mr. G. KNIGHT said that notwithstanding the statements of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, he should congratulate the Noble Lord on the introduction of his measure. The principle of the Bill was that of cen tralization, and he thought that without such a principle the amended Peor-law could not be carried out. The law, it was true, had become a subject for invective and unmerited censure ; and he (Mr. G. Knight) was not surprised at that, for with many such a course was po pular. It was always more pleasing to give than to re fuse, especially when we were dealing with other people's money. It was unpleasant enough to be held up and announced as the enemy of the poor, but tleese who heaped their censures on the advocates of the measure, should remember what was the state - - of thirgs before the law was reformed. He would s ower;, capable of the most tyrannical and pernicious applica beg of them to recollect that, under its ir.fluence, the ',ion, end beyond the law, lie hoped the House would poor were not impoverished but degraded—that it sane- ho consent to such a clause, and that, if- he could not ti the miserable system of paving wages out or the Mr.ifope to w be joined by a majority in his support ° seat to the akleY rate—that it discouraged the industrious, and offered's views, the House would not . c.on __proposed prolongation of the mmissioh• a premium to the idle. Let them remember that it —( Help-, hear.) By another clause relating to the acted as a cancer on the heart of the country ; and he Cornmi-sioners' Chambers, they would be to a great ex would then ask them whether those were the friends of tent relieved from the necessity of notifying and making the poor who wished to restore thorn to the debasement public all their regulations. This was also a most of the former system. That was not the course which objectionable clause. Even under the present law, by the friends of the labouring classes should pursue. They which they were required to notify publicly every regula• should, on the contrary, teach them to rely upon their lion which they formed, they sometimes evaded their re own exertions, and endeavour to secure for them better sponsibility ; and in his union, very great dissatisfaction and inconvenience had been occasioned by their doing so. wages and more employment. Those were not the rleieliebfetle the e d that so far from its being necessary to give enemies of the poor who wished for those objects , but what they terpme e o d r ityheriurl just ean principle d o square, iff relief, they persevered in those were their enemies who endeavoured by misrepre - '' sentations, to enlist their passions against a law intended measure d by ru l e an d square bythe ef Commissionerswhich at So. to raise their condition. It should be remembered, merset Huuse, they would increase that alienation which too, that England was the only country in which , was at present taking place. He regretted that he anything word)) , of the name of a Poor-law should differ from Honourable Gentlemen whom he re was in existence—it was th e only country in vii;ch the speeted, but he could never consent to the prolongation law compelled those who were not paupers, to relieve l i tinhainiowwca•sr o n f ee t e h s e sa C ry e t n o tr g al ive ßi t ia h r e d ir of f C accounts em m those who were. He did not complain of that, but ha thought the circumstance should be remembered by Commissioners r p s ub l longer e r Srr R. PEEL said that there were many reasons which those who indulged in such swetving condemnations of o ive he English root-law. He should also observe that. -: gd e d ru r e( ichtetei induced made t' s its h a 'B' d o lt ngd-f the e a u . di e n sict n i sst m eisd e i teievhre'eaemftodaefvgtroihttrhuae favour of the wf t e e i b : experiment : el Catrsii subject; administration e e oqn n 'e t de ' w rwte h i°la i c ni' h ls the amended system was in many respects superior to or of the Poowlaw ; the second was, whether it was de the old one. In a Metropoldan district with which he was connected they had effected a saving of 9 5,000/el year in the Poor -rate, while at the same time they greatly sireble to adhere to the superintendence of the Central amended the condition of the poor who were better accom- Bo id of Commissioners. There certainly were great modated and had butter medical attendance than before. evils hi the present system. He thought he perceived If the stories which had been circulated with a View to that there was a cancer eating away the vitals of that bring the law into disrepute, were traced to their sr,ure,:, couutry—paralyzing its healthful condition—and which they would be found to be either destitute of foundation or required the prompt intervention of Parliament.— gross exaggerations.—( Cheers.) Lamentable occur- ( Hear. hear.) He Wag much inclined to agree with rences had no doubt taken place, but they had taken the Hon. Gentleman; and be doubted whether the place under the old law ; also under the old sys. time had arrived for making that experiment. He was tern those ocrurrenccs bad been much more nu. inclined to think if a Conservative Government had pro merous. He did not mean to defend those abuses. posed the measure, there would be no great difficulty in but they were not necessary consequences of the new law; carrying the amendment. If it would require the active and if wrong had been done, he would say let the wrong co-operation of the great political parties to effect the al doer be punished. No pauper could now be bandied about teration, he concurred with the Hon. Gentleman that that from parish to parish until he died in the cart, but if des- active co-operation would be more easily procured by those titute, he was entitled to immediate relief- The lion. in whom he believed that Hon. Gentlemen placed the Member for Finsbury had drawn a very lamentable picture most unbounded confidence. Hon. Gentlemen were apt of the case of a man sixty years of age ; but he thought to forget what was the state of things when the alteration the Hon. Member ought to have been prepared. Had he was made in the Poor-law. It was not unnatural that they studied the Act, he would have known that provision had should dwell almost exclusively on the evils and abuses been made for the relief out of the house of persons who which they were actually experiencing, and fcrgrt had attained sixty years of age. It was only to the able those, however infinitely greater they might have been, bodied that out of door relief was refused. He respected which were not su fresh in their memory. He thought the feeling of the poor man who considered the workhouse it of great importance to remind the House of a disgrace, and made every exertion to keep himself and what was the state of thirgs at the time the his family out of ir ; but a man had no right to say that it alteration in the Poor-law took place, because that state was not a fit place for him, if he chose to live upon his of things constituted his (Sir R. Peel's) vindication for the neighbour. The union house was in some re- support which he now gave to the amendment-proposed. spects better than the poor man's own cottage —i t While .the Hon. Gentleman was speaking, be "(Sir R. was warmer, and the diet was better; and what less cruel Peel) thought he recollected a Report on the Con mode than restraint could be devised to make a difference dition of the Agricultural Labourers, which he thought between the workhouse and the cottage? One word with it would not be without advantage to refer to in the pre respect to the meritorious poor. It would certainly be sent discussion, and which he would therefore bring before more agreeable to his feelings if all could be relieved out the consideration of the House. In the year 1824 a Com. of the house, but he thought in all hard cases private cha- mittee was appointed to inquire into the rate of labourers' rity was the proper source of relief; and whenever they wages, and evidence of the condition of the agricultural met with a hard case, they could always relieve it by labourers in several parts of the country was taken. putting their hands in their pockets. It had been said that Some thought that labourers had good right to CM although the New Poor-law was adapted to agricul- plain of the diminished amount of the poor-rate paid to tural districts, yet it was not adapted to manufacturing them. The lion. Gentleman contrasted the increase of towns. Now, he considered it was even more adapted for property—the increase of taxation—the increase of wealth those towns than for agricultural counties. Towns were generally with the diminished amount of poor-rate, and subject to constant fluctuations in trade ; the operatives he thought that ground of complaint accounted for there were in the receipt of higher wages, and therefore the small part appropriated to the relict of the that law must be admirably adapted to them which taught labouring poor. He ( Sir R. Peel) thought that he could them to make provision, by saving their wages, against take a hundred in which that ground of complaint did not the day of pressure.—( Hear.) He believed that the arise, and in which the Hon. Gentleman would find a pro welfare of the English labouring classes depended upon gressive amount of money appropriated to the relief of the :he maintenance of the New Poor-law, and he thought labouring poor, and he would see if effects, which he would that justice and mercy alike forbade its being repealed. deem it natural to ex p ect, had resulted. (The Right He begged Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House 110 L lion. Baronet here proceeded to read from the Report, ex to look upon this measure with less favour because it was tracts of evidence relative to a certain hundred in the a Whig one. It was too great a measure to be discussed county of Suffolk. The accounts, he said, were kept from with party or political feelings. Hs was as little disposed Lady Day to Lady Day, in each year—from 1810 to 1824 as any one to overlook the errors of her Majesty's Minis. —showing an increase in the rate and in the amount a p. ters, but when they did deviate into right—( A laugh)— propristed for the relief of the labouring poor. From as they had done in the New Tithe-law, the New Poor- Lady Day, 1810, to Lady Day, 1811, the amount paid law, and, he would add, the Treaty of last July--(Cheers) was 1/ 3=,; from 1811 to 1812, it was 11. 10s. ; and from —be considered he should not be acting the part of a good 1812 to 1815, it was 31. ; it then increased to 61. the next citizen if he did nut give them his support.—(Chews.) It year; the subsequent year it amounted to 51. ; it then he thought the measure was merely to save the money of went on increasing till it amounted to 1,3841 ; and in the the rich he would not support it, but believing its object year 1822 it advanced to 2,297/ ; and in 1824 it increased to be to raise the character of the poor, he would give it to 3,5361. In that progressive increase of rate, and progres his cordial support, in spite of any unpopularity which sive increase of money appropriated to the relief of the poor, might attach to him. in voting fur the second reading, what was the result? Did the moral condition of the la however, he was not to be u iderstoed as approving of all bsurers improve by that increased application of money to the details, but they would be better discussed in Coin- their relief ? Were their actual comforts advanced ? Let mittec. the House hear what the witness said: What are the Mr. BUCK supported the Bill, but he thought the effects you find produced by the present system of erriplov- Noble Lord ought to pledge himself that he would allow ing the labourers ?" He was asked at first with respect to certain parts of it to be amended when it went into Com- the unempleyed labourers. The witness answered that mittee. He alluded particularly to the power given to the the elect produced was, the total demoralization of the Assistant Puor-law Commissioners. He hoped that lower orders. That they were made poachers and robbers such powers would be curtailed, as they were utterly by it; and that he could not explain the state of demo uncoestitutional. ralizatimi to which it reduced them. Yet, continued the Mr. M UNTZ had been long aware that the great mis- Right Hoe. Baronet, the rate and the appropriation of fortune of the people of the country was, that those who money were progressive. He (Sir R. Peel) was only were the law makers were not the law workers. If the wanting to show the House that the Hon. Gentleman was Noble Lord and his colleagues were to act as Poor-law not correct in his • arguments, by which he would prove Guardians for only six months, they would never attempt that the industrious poor had a right to complain, be to enforce such an obnoxious law, fur it made no distiec. cause they had not received a certain amount. He observed Lion between the honest man and the idle, dissolute, and that crime had increased undoubtedly within the last five drunken vagabond. If those stupid farmers who made up years, owing to the present system of relieving with money. wages out of the Poor-rates, had discovered that they paid It broke the bond of anion between the farmer and the la those rates themselves, and therefore gained nothing by bourer, who both considered their interest as one and the the practice; they would have remedied the thing them- same. That mutual feeling now no longer existed. In selves, as he (Mr. Muntz) had seen it remedied in other the generality of parishes it appeared that from five to forty places. He remembered a time when the same practice labourers have been without employment, loitering about existed in the town of Birmingham, but in a very abort time during the day, insulting passengers on the road, or con it was cured, and there was no danger that it would ever turning their time in sleep, in order to be the more active under any circumstances he revived. It was said that there during the hours of darkness. Let them stypose, then, that had been a great saving under this law. He (Mr. Muntz) the Hon. Gentleman came to those men in that condition, doubted the truth of that statement. From all that he and addressed to them the inflammatory speech that he deli could learn, the amount of wages at present was fully equal ',wed to night—if he should have said to the able bodied la.. to what it had been before the passing of the present law. bourers,: "Itis a shame that you cannot get work ; what a —( Cheers from Lord John Russell and Lord Howick ) scandalous thing it is for those hard.bearted farmers not to The Noble Lord cheered that statement, but be (Mr. afford you the meansof support you have a rightto underthe Muntz) believed that no saving had been effected in the Act of Parliament," what, he would ask, might have aggregate by the operation of the Poor-law.—( Hear.) been the consequence ? The Hon. Gentleman might have Now, whatever might be the experience of other gentle- drawn exactly the same case of distress that he did to men, his (Mr. Muntz's) was uniformly to this effect. He night, exciting their feelings, but disregarding these consi had never known a man of kindly feeling who was overseer durations, which ought to weigh with a rational man as a for the space of six months who did not in that time be- remedy for a great and growing evil. Let it be supposed come callous to all who were placed under his control. that the Legislature would grant relief to the able-bodied That being the case, what must be the f ee lings o f t h ose poor , without exactly distinguishing the labourer from that who were permanently masters of workhouses, who had man who had a tendency to the degraded condition of the held that office for two, three, five, or six years e—( H eare workman who was able to pay his rent, but unwilling,—let hear.-) Many instances of the cruelty of these persons had them suppose that the Legislature would put some such been related to the House by the Hon. Member fur Fins_ test to the labourer as the workhouse, that was, to say "You bury, and let them not imagine. that these were solitary shall have comfortable lodgings and food, but it is required cases, although there were few men of the same energy that you take up your residence in the workhouse." Let and ability as the Hon. Member for Finsbury to bring them it then suppose that the Legislature thought that the legiti before the country. These were not the only cases mate effect of that would be to improve the mural charac in which the law was objectionable, and in which its seve- ter, and ultimately the physical condition of the labourer, rity aed injustice were manifested. These ought undoubt- would the Hon. Gentleman say that the Legislature was edlv to be a distinction made between large towns, where hound to adopt that system? He ( Sir R. P.)admitted that it great numbers were frequently thrown out of employment, was impossible to amend the law without giving rise to in and small places, where the distress was upon a much dividual cases of great distress. He lamented that, but they small r scale. He ( Mr. Muntz) had seen ten thousand m ust l oo k in those things to general results; they could men terown out of employment at once. Whea they ap- nut decide by individual cases, lamentable though they plied for relief, they were told that they might come into might be. lie was inclined to believe that there were the louse, but they would not accept the offer. In fact abuses in the old system which were Bever heard of, and it was not intended that they should; there was not suffi- of more aggravated kind, because they escaped the public dent room for them; and the offer was made merely for eye. He regretted that there existed under the amended the purpose of getting rid of them. The intention of the system abuses also, but he hoped that the consequence of law, perhaps, was good, but its effect was most unjust having public attention called to them would be their and severe. He was quite confident that if the Noble removal. It had been hoped that the application of some Lord and his colleagues knew the working of the law, new test to improve the labourer would teach him the they would be the last men not only to bring it in, but value of independence, and it was for that reason the great even to vote for it.—( H e ar.) F ee li n g, a s he did, the alteration was made in the law. He (Sir IZ. Peel) deeply greatest objectien to the renewal of the Commission fur regretted that after the expense that had been incurred, ten years; believing, as he had long believed, that the which was, comparatively speaking, a minor consideration, Poor-law Bill, like the Factory Bill, and several others it had been found necessary to abandon the alteration which he could name, were the effects of an erroneous after a trial of four or five years. He was not able to view of finance, and calculated to inflict a deep injury upon gather from the entire speech of the Hon. Gentleman the country, he (Mr. Mentz) would do all in his power to what project he proposed. Was it intended to apply some prevent the passing of the law on that occasion. test by which they would be enabled to distinguish the vir- The lion. Mr. LIDDELL rose and said that he felt tuous, industrious man? That was the test which in his it his duty to vote forth: amendineut of the Hun, Member opinion they ought to apply, and by which they would be for Finsbury. The Noble Lord, in intr. clueing this Bill, enabled :to do their duty to tho rate-payers, from whom th e y had thought fit to remind the House of those grievances should be cautious to exact not one shilling for the reward and evils which it was the obj 'et of the Peer-law Amend- of ieleness or fraud. He had come to the conclusion that rnent to remove. He (the Hon. Mr. Liddell) thought it was not fit to have that experiment adopted in 1834. the Nsble Lord might almost have spared himself the The Right Hon. Baronet here adverted to the statements trouble of going over that grouud again ; for as he made by the lion. Gentleman the Member for Birming understood, that was a subject on which there was little haul, and observed that in many parishes there were far difference of opinion. He agreed with the Noble Lord mess who were in the habit of paying wages out of the in giving full credit to the authors of she Poor-law fur poor-rate, and those farmers were called stupid—that was the having done their best to check a system which, if per- term—and yet that plan exactly couferrcd the benefit which severed in, if not checked by even a rigorous enactment, lie expected from the Central Board of Commissioners. might have produced innumerable evils in many parts of The cases to which the Act of Elizabeth applied were the kingdom. He agreed with the Poor-law Commis- mentioned ; but the majority of these were cases of mis sioners in that part of their Report in which they referred placed humanity. He expected that the Central Board to the progress of pauperism ire the more highly pauper- of Commissioners would gradually introduce a uniformity ised districts of England. It was the object of the Poor- of system, and persuade those, who admitted the abuses of law to remedy that evil, and he believed it was necessary the law, by reason and not by compulsion ;by represent that a very strong remedy should be applied. To that ex- ing the beneficial effects of a good administration of the tent the Noble Lord and himself were agreed ; and law, they would be able more effectually to introduce to that extent be was willing to support the a universally good and humane d system.—( Hear, hear.) continuance of the Poor-law. But he would Again, tie Hon. Gentleman sai that no saving whatever believes there has been a nominal saving in the amount of contemplated by that Bill. He would• never accede to the never consent to go to so great an extent as was had been effected, and for this . reason . , that although he t o f t h e increased wages , of labour.— Poor-law Amendment Act, it was necessary to vote for the caarge accoun proposition, that in order to work out the principle el the th t e rate contribu'ed, yet there has been an increase in the d sum which he contributes to this rate, pay for opinion, a fair and intelligible ground for objecting to the: iner •striking perpetuity of the Poor. law Commission. That was, in his ( increased ) Putting together the existing rate, oar the Hon. Gentleman said no actual saving.—(Cheers.) Why, the viz., specific objections to certain clauses, which be consi- there will be mas a great au! busily, II bid. To this ground 'he was able to add some others, labour, and a bil lance . , the H • dered to be extremely injurious in their operations uponpersons, fr ant one of the had hoped course of his able address, hid given to the House his ex- advantages he (S' R. industriousorn the adminis the community. The Hon. Member for Finsbury, in the ploy rent ntotleamgarneiartnupmebeelr) o f y, le gave em the and vie eive increased the employer and in favour and he (Sir p h e i rtiheencsch(rifr,tuhhedwinogrkhinlegtroefptehleis.lawHine,tthhee pHoeprujarmdri.stLricidt-s tteraethiosnlaohfouthreer Poorl-law that the wages, del would say a few words as to the working of the law in R. Peel) rejoiced that on ha adding there had been no But ai the increased wages to a district of a character altogether different, in a dis- saving.—( Cheers.) trict strictly rural and agricultural, where, as was ad- the diminished amount of the poor-rate, on the whole the mitted by almost all authorities, it was riot neces- balance was against sary, so tar as regarded any abuse which had here- of the employed —(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for amount of wages in tofore existed, to make a n y a lterations in the old law. Finsbury in selecting the different counties of England, Regard for truth and fairness compelled him to admit that and showing the low them, had se the law did work indifferently well in his immediate die- lected the county of Delon. Now it did so happen trict. But the object of the law was to bent fit some class that the county of Devon was the county in or other ; arid, in his union, it had benefited no one—the which the greatest amount of out-door- elief had poor were not better taken care of and the rates had in- been granted. — ( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Sr(i Robert creased. He did, however, know a union in which the Peel) had looked at the returns—[The lion, Gentleman rates had been diminished to the amount of 2,000/ a year. said that only 7s. a week had been paid to them. This There were some points connected with his own parish to a; geared exceedingly low, but it was necessary to inquire Hear, hear.) This was in a which be wished to call the attention of the House. One whether that low rate was occasioned by the administra great grievance was the extent of the union, which ton- tion of the work-house test, for if not it was no argument dered it difficult to get guardians to attend from remote against the Poor-lawl—and he found in the county of g paid for their services, which was Devon, selected by the Hon. Gentleman, there was the somewhat illegally by a private rate. The pre. lowest amount of wag es•—( t e l ff is e tr c i t e e t d s, s u o • m itl: sent Bill proposed to m a ke overseers eligible as guar- county in which, in only two unions there had been a posi dians—a practice which was connived at, at present, in the tive order to discontinue out-door relief, and in which, at the union of which he spoke, and was not attended with benefit, present moment, of all the counties of England the great- He thought it was highly objectionable, and hoped the cat amount of out-door relic fives given. He did not mean Noble Lord would reconsider it. But he "MO now to to say that out-door r elief was the cause of lo wness of another (jection, namely—the maintenance of the Cen- I wages ; but it was a singular fact that the county in which teal Board for so long a period as ten years, during which , was the lowest a mount of wages was the county in which they possess a power of governing the whole kingdom—, was the greatest amount of out-door relief, On these 71-1147 SUN, LONDOV. TUESnA I% FEBRUARY 9. IP4i. 7 general ground:, namely, the recollection of the evils' which the old system had produced, and the imperfection $ of the present system, he preferred giving the charge of its administration, for the present, to a Central Commis sion, aiel should give his vote for the second reading of the Bill. (Great cheering.) But at the same tize . e he felt it ne cessar y t o re serve to himself the o enre right of judging of the merit of particular elaeses.— ( Hear.) He would mention one or two clauses of the propriety of which he had great doubts. He Fad doubts as to the propriety of continuing the duration of the Com mission for so l ong a t i me.— ( H ear. ) H e did no t mean to say the exp er i ence o f anot h er s h ort per i o d m i g ht not convince him s till more t h at t h e ex i stence o f a C en t ra l Commission be more satisfactory ad v t a o n ttahge feelings o cuci nz sibus of the t hetho c u o g u h n t try it would that at ae earlier period the matter might again pass under revision, and that the 'Louse would find it advantageous not to extend the period for its duration beyond five years.—( Hear, hear.) It did not necessarily follow that there must then be a termination of the Commission, if they were convinced that it was working well. But at any r-te there was a difference between leaving it open to any Member to propose the repeal of the existing law, and having it certain that at the end of five years they could reject or renew the existing law.—( Hear, hear.) He did not deny the force of some of those arguments that at the end of five years there should be a legislative revision of the conduct of the Commissioners. He thought s it would be a greater security for their goad conduct thin securing them in office far ten years, and if five years con vinced them the Commission worked well, he Was sure the good sense of Parliament would induce them to consent to its continuance.—( Hear, hear, hear) Another reason for his insisting, as far as he could insist, for a shorter time for the duration of the Commission, was, that a great deal depended on the personal character of the gentlemen cm. pl eyed. Great power was devolved opera them—a power of legislating to such an extent that he thought it would be more becoming in Parliament to reserve to itself the power of supervision where so much depended on the per sonal character of the gentlemen employed. He was strongly inclined to think that a shorter period than ten years would be more likely to produce a proper discharge of duty in those to whom Orley delegated those enlarged pow se s. —( Hear, hear.) Another clause, respecting nhieb he certainly felt great difficulty, was that respecting attaching burial grounds to union workhouses.—( Cheers.) Ile did hope the Noble Lord would not attempt to carry this system too harshly into execution. He (Sir R. Peel) never had given his vote in favour of the measure from any other motive than to promote the interests of the labouring classes—( Cheers)—and to remedy the abuses of the Poor law; and he regretted this clause because he felt it was calculated to prejudice the law in the feelings of a large class of this country. It was of immense importance, and he hoped the Noble Lord would secure the proper execu tion of this law with as much respect as possible to the feelings of those who were more particularly affected by it. Ir, as he believed, the poor of this country had a decided preference to being buried in these consecrated grounds attached to their parish churches, one could not help ad miring the honest prejudice; and, further, he could see no objection to that last solemn ceremony being performed over their remains in the ancient burial-ground, where their ashes might mingle with the ashes of those to whom death once more united them. He did not sec that this was any necessary part of the operation of this law— ( Hear, hear)—and he was convinced that, the more they cool I legislate consistent with their main object, the ele vation el the character of the poor, who could not be ex pected to take these enlarged views of the ultimate effect of legislation, it would be so much the Letter. Ile had a strong impression that it would be infinitely better to en courage, as strongly as possible, the burial of the poor in churchyards to which they were attached, than to bury them in cemeteries attached to the workhouse.—( Hear, hear). There was one other clause he should be sorry to see adopted. He should be sorry to see any extension of the existing unions.—( Hear, hear). He quite understood there might be some advantage in very large unions, but he was inclined to think they had carried that principle as far as they could advantageously do, and that possibly it might bo advantageous- to diminish them. They wculd find in those large unions a great difficulty in securing the attendance of guardians, and he thought also that where they had a relieving officer visiting remote rural parishes by having unions too extensive, and its parts too remote from the cognizance of the Board of Guardians, there might be opportunities of abuse which would be cor rected, if the unions were on a more limited scale. He should, therefore, regard any proposition for the extension of unions with great jealousy.--s( Hear, hear.) He had mentioned these two or three clauses respecting which he entertained considerable doubt on giving his consent to the second reading of the Bill, and he must repeat what he had More stated, that he reserved his consideration of specific clauses. When he saw increased powers con ferred, he must be convinced that increased powers were necessary fur the proper operation of the Act, but these clauses would all undergo consideration, and he should apply to the consideration of them on the principle he had before stated, namely, the desire to provide an effectual remedy against the abuses which had undermined the pro sperity of the country, and the desire also to consult as far as he possibly could this feelings of that class who were more immediately subject to the operation of this Bale— ( Cheers.) Mr. T. DUNCOM BE said, if he had not seen the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) in the House at the time it was proposed, he should have supposed he had not heard the amendment proposed by the Hon. Member for :Maidstone. The question before the House was not whether they would adhere to or abandon the present sys tem, but whether they would agree to the second reading of a Bill, entitled an Act to amend the present Poor-law, but in which he could find no amendment whatever.— ( Hear, hear.) Or. the contrary, lie found aggravation of every evil of which the people of the country complained. It was quite true the present system required much amendment. It was very well to talk of speeches being ii immatory when spoken against the Poor-laws, but he begged leave to say that, if that'Commission was to be con tinued, he did riot believe the law could be safer than in the hands of those Hon. Gentlemen—(Cheers)---but he had a right to attack the system under which they were acting.—( Hear, hear.) And on that principle alone he rose to offer a few observations to the House. It was stated that this was a Bill to amend the present law, but where was it amended? He thought it would be better that the Government should introduce a Bill of half a dozen lines, merely saying the Commissioners should be made perpetual, and should have the power of the Com mons, Lords, and Crown of the United Kingdom, because, in fact, this Bill would confer on them these rowers. It would be better at once to give them the power of legislative enactment. The Right Hon. Gentleman suggested the Commission should only last five years. It was not difficult to predict that what the Right Hon. Gentleman suggested would be accepted by her Majesty's Government, and he (Mr. D.) therefore wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had suggested one year, as he felt satisfied in such case it would have been agreed to. He was quite satisfied also that after the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, there would be no private church-yard in which these poor persons would be thrown into the earth like so many dogs. It was not even said in the Bill that any clergyman was to perform the service over them. The Right Hon. Baronet gave great credit to the poor for their meritorious feelings respecting burial in their own church-yard, but he wished the Right Hon. Gentleman would pay as much respect to these poor old people during their life as ho seemed desirous of paying to their remains. It would be much more satisfactory to them. They thought a greater evil could not be inflicted upon them, after expending their time and strength in improving Hon. Gentlemen's estates, than to be shut up in a workhouse when they applied for relief at the discretion of the Poor law Commissioners.—( Hear, hear, and No, no.) It was at the discretion of the Commissioners, they could not deny that. If they wished to adhere to the present system, why introduce the present Bill? When the old Bill was introduced, it was promised that the Gilbert Unions and local Acts should not be interfered with, but now the guardians of these unions would not consent to the re newal of the Poor-law. They were going to do that by force which they could not effect by reason. They were going virtually to repeal all the local Acts of the Metro. .polio, which he told the Noble Lord wag a breach of faith. They were told on the first day of the Ssssion, by the Noble Lord who moved the Address, that this Bill had worked well, had been a boon to the country. If this were so, why did not the Gilbert Unions at once embrace it? They did not, because they knew it to be a jobbing Bill. It was all a fallacy, but a profitable one for the Ministers, to say that if this Bill was not agreed to, they mutt revert to the old system of Poor-laws. The case was now entirely altered; the laws were now administered by individuals elected by the rate-payers, and were not now under the control of overseers and Justices of the Peace. That fallacy leaving been exploded, he saw no reason why the House should give its sanc tion to the second reading of the Bill—of a Bill which would take away from the ratc.payers all control over the law—a Bill which would disfranchise the rate-payers to any extent that it might please the Commissioners—because, perhaps, few Members were aware that it contained a clause giving the Commissioners power to divide unions into wards, and settling, according to their own pleasure, the number of guardians to be re turned by such wards. The Bill had been proceeded in with indecent haste; the country had not had time to be made aware of the provisions it contained. He had no doubt the Bill would be read a second time; but from the opposition the Noble Lord had met with that night, he would have a foretaste of what 1:e might expect in Com mittee. He wished the Noble Lord would be wise and withdraw the Bill. He would do so if he did not wish to widen the chasm which now existed between the richer and the poorer classes of society. He wished that the Noble Lord could be induced to withdraw the Bill, and found upon it another Bill that would be more accordant to the feelings of the rate-payers, more humane to the poor, and more in accordance with the feelir gs of justice and hu manity. —( Cheers.) Mr. F. MAUL E would press as earnestly upon his Noble Friend as the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down, but in a different way. Ile would press upon his Noble Friend to persevere with the Bill, and be trusted that notwithstanding the speech they had just heard the Bill would meet with no more than fair opposition. It wa4 unfair to charge the Government with pressing on the Bill with indecent haste. The country must be fully , aware of all its provisions, for it was laid before Parlia ment in the March of last year, although, from eir,:um stances which he need not now allude to, it had not been discussed until late in the Session. He had heard the speech of the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley) with great regret. He charged the country gentlemen of England with acting from mercenary motives in the carrying out of this Bill. Now that was a position which he did not think would be taken up by any other gentleman, nor did he believe that it was founded upon anything like fact. The Hon. Gentleman bad also said e that the discontent which had existed in the country of late years arose front the Bill of 1834. In that statement the lion. Gentleman maligned the poor, of whom he well ' wished it to be thought he was the advocate. It wase known the discontented were act the p oorer classes—the i c Uscontent arose from, and was confined to , thoseclassesfrom t who were earning such wa g es as to keep them far poverty. Ttie Hon. Geatfeman had also threatened them with a combination of agricultural labourers, should the Bill pass into a law. II s said, that when the hsy or corn harvest came about, the labourers might combine, and set the farmers at defiance. Now, let in ask the Hausa to look at what had taken place. Had there been any corn oinatioa of the agricultural labourers siece th a New Poor-law had been enacted ? He emphatically sell that there had not. He would take no credit for the saving of money which had been effected, for he frankly avowed that it was but a secondary consideration. Toe regeneration of the poor was what the originators of the Bill had looked at, and he was quite sure, though the rates had been doubled, the genilemen of England would not have grudged it, had the character of the poor been raised from the degradation in which the old law had steeped them. He ( Mr. F. M.) held it to be next to impossible that they could now abandon the new system. lie did not be lieve that there was any Membar is the House, not even the Hen. Member for Finsbury himself, who would now urge therei:fais go back to the old system. That being es tablishekthe question was could they carry out the new systdm without the aid of central management. In his opinion, it was impossible. The original Bill was founded not upop • the opinions of the Commissioners themselves, but updta their opinions founded upon an examination into, and approval of, the management of the poor in certain parishes, which they were anxious should be carried into effect throughout England. He did not intend at alt to draw any comparisons between gaols and workhousss, but. he could not avoid drawing the attention of the House to the beneficial results which bad flowed from the system of central management, which had been adopted with regard to the prisons of Scotland. All parties there give their hearty approbation to that system.—( Hear.) They only wanted central management for the put pose of having a similarity of management throughout the country. Already great improvements had been made in the management of the Poor-laws ; but still there was e wide field left for the beneficial operation of the Commis sioners. A great part of the country wes still untouched, and without the central management, they ss ould have one syste m in one part of the country, pulling against the sys tem established in another part. lie would now come to the question of expeese, and, fur the purpose of compa rison, he would take that year 1834, the year in which the Hon. Member for Maidstone stated there were peculiar circumstances tending to reduce the rates. In that yea! the amount levied for the purposes of the poor amounted to 6 300.000/ , while in 1840 the sum was reduced to low mad a half millions, allowing a saving of nearly two millions effected upon the simple administration of relief to the poor ; and he was ready at the same time to maintain that the sum given, in bona fide relief was greater than was given in 1834. The pecuniary result, however, was nut so satisfactory as the result otherwise. It had certainly greatly tended to raise the character of the working classes even to a point he had scarcely ex p ecte d th em tc e have ar. rived at in this country. Suppose the Poor- law Com. mission were to be at an end, and that the Boards of Guardians were to assume the sole control of unions under their charge. He would ask what bearing that would have upon the conduct of union officers, whose appointment and dismissal is now under the control of the Commissioner. It had been made a frequent subject of attack that they bad not used those powers with effici ency in many cases, but he could only say that wherever the Commissioners had been made acquainted with the misconduct of any union officer, they had invariably ordered a strict examination into the facts, and they had either dis missed the officer or shown the public that he was not is fault. Last year the Commissioners had dismissed seventy five officers, besides having accepted the resignation of many others who found their dismissal inevitable. They had also taken care to inquire into every complaint brought before them. He thought that if, on the other hand they left all control in the hands of the guardians, they would be unwilling to dismiss officers whatever offence they might have committed, as these officers would pro bably be with them objects of partiality. The power of supervision, which was placed in the hands of the Com missioners, by which they might discharge officers ap pointed by the guardians, was, in his opinion, one of the greatest advantages of the whole system. But the Hon. Member who had last addressed the House stated that if boards of guardians were left to themselves, there would be no fear that they would attempt t,) fall into the abuses of the old system. Ile (Mr. Mauled had made some in•• quiry on that subject of the Poor-law Commissioners ; end no one could say that they had any reason to misre present the facts—but they gave him to understand, that so far from there being no apprehension that boards of guardians would return to the old system, there was scarcely one abuse of that system which some board or another had not applied for permission to adopt. Some of theist had asked permission to give relief as wages, others had sugs gested the propriety of granting out-door relief to non-resi dent paupers, and others had taken certain ladies under their protection, who had saddled the parish with illegitimate cif spring, and those boards begged they might be allowed to leave those women to go at large, while their offspring were to be maintained at the expense of the parish. Ali these propositions had been made, and yet they were told that the Boards would be guided by the principles of the amended law if left to the exercise of their own discretion. The House should also remember all the obloquy that had been heaped on the Commissioners, of which they alone had borne the brunt, no matter what were the grievances complained of, or by whom they were committed ; and he would a - k them whether they would find a Board of Guar dians who would not shrink from encountering the same abuse and misrepresentation cast on them, from one end of the year to the other, for the pains they had taken in guard ing the interests of the union over which they presided. It had often occurred that the Commissioners had to defend the acts of guardians, and take on themselves the respon sibility which the others refused to bear. He believed that if many of the Boards were consulted, they would rather abandon their duties altogether, than be deprived of the advice and guidance of the Commissioners. If they did away with the central authority, they would soon see those evils spring up again which had before been complained of, and the result would be that they would find it necessary to app Ant a new body to suppress them. He was ; there fore, of opinion that it was much better, until the Poor_ law was established on such a firm basis that there could be no doubt as to the uniformity of practice which would prevail, to continue the central supervision as it now existed. lie did not care about the time for which that authority was to be prolonged, for that did not affect the principle of the measure. All he asked was, that the House should adept the main features of the Bill, among which he considered the establishment of a central autho rity as the most essential. Ile would not, then, make any allusion to the attacks of which the Commissioners had been the objects. He would abstain from all matters that could only lead to personal recrimination. it was his anxious wish that they should preserve the modera. tion which - the nature of the question required; and they v;onld thus have a better chance of arriving at some measure, which, while it maintained the principle of the Act would tend to the benefit of the public, and elevate the character of the labouring classes in this country, and would at the same time afford the poor that protec... lion and that relief which he leas sure it was the wish a every Englishmen to extend to those whom he found depen. dent on him,—( Hear, hear.) Sir E. K N ATC BU L wished to melte a Cosy obser, vations on the measure then before the House. He en. tirely agreed in the opinion that the most importare clauses of the Bill would be best discussed in Committee, He would, however, confess at that stage, that, in looking over the clauses of the Bill, there were many he could not agree to. lie had hoped, that when the Government were introducing a measure for the amendment of the Poor-law, their efforts would not have been solely confined to giving additional powers to the Commissioners.— ( Hear, hear.) He had certainly expected that the well known fealing which prevailed through the country would have in7luced them to introduce setae measures of relaxation into the system. He looked upon the question of out-door relief as one of considerable, if not primary importance. lie admitted that it would be unwise that relief should be given in aid of wages : but at the sam: time ho should say, that where they found parties without any fault, if they wer e unable to receive any wages whatever, it would be but fair to invest the Commissioners with the power of granting out-door relief to such parties if they should think proper. Ho would refer to circumstances that had taken place within the last six weeks in the union of Ashford, with which he was himself connected. All knew the incle mency of the present winter ; it happened that in conse quence of that inclemency several poor persons were coin. pelted to apply for out-door relief in the union in question. The ease was so grievous, and the pressure so urgent, that the Board of Guardians, at all times reluctant to give ow door relief, consented to grant it ; and afterwards, in com pliance with the Act of Parliament, reported the fact to the Commissioners. He held in his hand the reply which was given by those functionaries. In it they recommended that before granting out-door relief the guardians should endeavour to ascertain the urgency of the claim by first receiving the head of the family into the workhouse. It appeared, however, to him (Sir Edward Knatchbull) that such a step would be most harsh—that it would be cruel to take a father inter a workhouse, and allow the mother and children in the meantirre to provide for themselves. There had been already ample evidence in the case in question that the parties were really destitute, an they had been deprived of the opportunity of having re course to arly kind of work by the severity of the weather•. The Commissioners afterwards recommended that the heads of families should be required to work at task-work. But they had no such work at which to em ploy them. They neat recommended that task.work should, if necessary, be found for them out of the work house, but he believed it was equally impossible, consi dering the severity of the weather, to put the parties to such work. These families had not since been re lieved, and he knew not how they bad since lived, unless it were by the charity of their neighbours. He thought that a provision might be made for such cases in the amended Act. lie hoped that suggestions of that kind would be attended to by the Government. He would say one word on the Central Board, the necessity for which he admitted, in order to carry the law into e ffect• should be prolonged, but there might be different opinions as to the time to which its continuarco m;ght be eltm Ile certainly thought that the power of the Commissioners be the more that a period of five years would K❑atc'abull ad visable extent, while he ( Sir His Right Hon. Friend near him (Sir E. Edward be sufficient. was of opinion that three years would the power He thought that, as far as management went, o e fthatni Commissioners, but he should be left in the hands of the Co far a l could. Peel) drought would restrict the powers of legislation as of the s He should vote for the second reading who believed that the Lord HO WICK was one of those l e ia d g eba t t es d been one of the most beneficial that Act of 1534 ha been brought forward, and that the Commis_ signer er everNvl) o had recommended and the Government which to carry it were both entitled to the gra- Bill, with titude the courage the hope of making the necessary alterations in Committee. of the New Poor-Law, which had been 'uttered sentiments, giit with great satisfaction, for after the denunciations of the t r e d a t a i i i month after month and year after year, which had been re peated by the press, and in speeches after dinners, and at m eeengs, where they came fairly t h i e tu c d o e nf o es f se tli d ei t r ha c t o h u e ntr h Y• ad to discuss the subject in the House of Commons. Before those who were prepared cruelty EVEN, !NG 141,DITTON. 1 to defend that measure they could not defend that measure -- - 1 they could not find one single individual on either side of the House, neither the Hen. Mover of the amendment nor the Hon. klember for Finsbury, Isles had Seconded it, who had recommended to the House to return to that system of Poor law relief s‘lsieh bad existed previous to the passing of the Act of 1834. Ile hrti felt convinced that that would he the °ace, hat when they came to look the subject. fully in the tare no one would be found boll enough to stand up in that House, and, calling him% slithe friend of the peer man, to rev ommend to the British Parliament the reeturatiou of that system which ii, r ai s sb a o s hua f .i r it e ,.s ss injurious, as wasting the resources of the country, than as operessieg and degrading the peasantry. He was sure that no man would recommend a return to the system of parish gravel-pits. He was sure that no man would wish tsa t ip o i nt. able-bodied tb : , e ,eiiorder i ,s e i a l e a rs h it o r a ie:r ef u e , : r i n nt t itossoh:th:maat the hyas systemlst o s c: h m o , n e. h , e :k ,l : n n (ti o oe c l :k n u b e n t e t etle u clownpwastrel the the n s . he h t gfhloierescte:bivia:disdl idleness, without : t : h :g o t i t e ft e i o , af n at s: gh pittance eobuwer been ho nestt and industrious mars, who had saved a little pittance by ts ich distinctly proved in evidence before the passing of the Act in 18:34. Labourers in that situation had been actually refused employment, because they had money to maintain themselves, and were laughed at by the other labourers, who called them foils for lee Mg by their money ,as it was r nly saving the parish. That accursed system, which had gradually been reducing the peasantry of England to the condition of the Russian and tie Polish serf, no man bail defended. His anticipations had been ullv justified by the debate ; no one had recommended a return to that system. Even his Honourable Friend the Mem ber for Finsbury had said, as for the system formerly existin g , t was absurd to thi n k o f go i ng b ac k to t h at. If it was admitted that they ought not to return to that system, he hoped the House would take great care not to be led by indirect and concealed methods to d that which no ma i had openly ven tured to recommend. If they would not avowedly venture to restore the system which had been put an end to in 1f34, they should take care not to break down the principle of the system which had been substituted in its place, and by so doing, re store the former system.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that such would be the consequence of adopting some of the views advocated by his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury. And if it were not for the security afforded by the Commissioners a restoration of many of the former abuses must take place. If he wanted a proof that there could be no safety for the new system if en end were put to rho existing Commission, he could not ask for anything more de- • cisive than the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet who had last spedeen. That Right lion. Baronet whose opinions, front the position which he held in that House were entitled to the greatest attention, who only five years ago had been the Cabinet Minister of a former Government, in the speech which he had made that night, while he was decidedly op principtleo a w n ?: y k i h •e , tu i r f n a t d c o u i t , h te e d, fo l r No n u e l r d, system, little by eliattll d d' s o t w e • p n by a step, inevitably lead to its restoration. The 'tight Hon. Gesele man had said that in the Bill then before the House souse provision ought to have been introduced for a relaxation of the rules pro hibiting the administration of out-door relief, and although he had, as might have been expected, abstained from those per sonal attacks c•n the Commissioners in which less responsible persons had indulged, yet he had severely censured their con duct and the want of judensent exhibited by them in refusing to sanction a'proposit ion of the Board of Guardians in the comity, of Kent for affording out-door relief during the recent severe weather. Now it appeared to hiss ( Lord Ilowick) that al i! Commissioners had acted with a just and proper discretion ; he was perfectly pessuaded that if they adopted the principle of the Right Hon. Baronet, it would be, to make use of a popular phrase, putting in the fine edge of the wedge, which would be drivers on until the compleso restoration of that old system was brought about, by which the great bulk of the labourers in the South of England had been made dependent in the winter on the parish pay-table. The Eight Hon. Baro net had said that there was no occasion, in those cases, to re sort to the test of the workhouse, as there could be no doubt of the poverty of the applicants. It appeared to Lim that the Right Hon. Baronet, in making that observation, had taken a very imperfect view of the subject ; one object of gh.ing relief only in the workhouse, had certainly been to ascertain if the applicant was really in want of it. But that was not at all, it was not oily the effect produced on the party receiving relief, but it was the effect of example held out to others giving relief out of the workhouse, which was the great ebjec:ion. If they once gave relief out of the workhouse, they would diminish the motives inducing other persons not unit not to apply for re lief before they wanted it, but to take care beforehand ,list they were net placed in a situation of necessity. It was of great importance that the werlsirg classes should be taught not to think lightly or trivially of seeking re lief. It was right that they should be encouraged in the idea that every sacrifice and every exertion should be made before they would consent to Eve or, Mie bounty of ethers. Ile could not help hers adverting to the argument of the Hon. :Member for Finsbury, that the condition of the law was such that many persons were ready to undergo great suffering rather than go inta the workhouse. He seemed to be of opinion that • relief should be given as a is attcr of course, and that there should be nothing painful or distressing attendirg it. He would remind the Hoe. Member that, entil late years, it had been considered the pride and boast of England that her pea santry were the most well-conducted, industrious, and moral in the world, until their great objection to re ceive parish relief had been broken down ; for two centuries after the passing the Act cf Elizabeth, the term pauper had been considered a reproach and stigma, which every English peasant sought. to avoid. 13y the injudicious admi nistration of the Poor-laws that feeling had been broken down. Men at that time had no objection to rere ire parish relief. Poverty in every rank of life, and in the highest as well as the lowest there were those who were poor, was attended with privation and distress, but in all classes every man of indepen dent feeling will undergo great suffering and privation before he would consent to became a dependant upotithe bounty of others. He thought lie had shown that it was of espial importance as an example to others, as well as a test of want, that no out door relief should be afforded to able bodied persons. One most useful effect of relieving in the workhouse, and in the workhouse only, was this—that it net only induced the labourers themselves to snake great efforts, but it also induced their employers and wealthier neighbour; t o ma k e great efforts for them before they came to that alternative. If a farmer knew that he would have to mainta'n an able-bodied labourer in the workhouse, lie would make great efforts to pro cure him employment out of doors. Tim Hight Hon. Baronet tlse Alernber for Tamworth, had said that Devonshire, the county in which wages were the lowest, N',as also the county in which out-door relief had been mare common than its illy other comae in England. Ile would stase a case which was the exact convene of it. In the county which lie had the honour to represent, he was happy to say that even before the New Poor-law no out-door relief was given to the able-bodied labourer, nor was relief eYei., given .. in aid of wages, and the consequence was that, insteed, of the miserable wages they received in Devonshire, the la- • bouring population of that county was in a station of compa rative comfort and independeuce; residing in a part of England where all the necessaries of life were much cheaper, where fuel, that most important article, was very much cheaper thaw in the south of England, wages were three cr feur shillings a week higher than in Devonshire. He was convinced that it was ill judged benevolence to grant relief out of the workhouse, and a course which tended to lower and degrade the general condition of the labouring population.—( Hear, hear.) So general had been the assent of the House to the principle of the measure that lie would not go to greater length in the discussion ; he would only say that he had tweed with great regret what had fallen from the flight Honottrable Baronet the Member for Tamworth respecting the term for which it was pro posed to continue the Commissioners.—( Hear, hear.) If the system was a good one, and calculated to pat an end to the evil.; of the old system, it was worthy the attention of the House whether it was not sound policy to act in such a man ner as to convince the minds of the public that there would be no shrinking from the system if it esuld not bo foreseen ss ho e the Commission would cease to be necessary. He thought it would be a great encouragement to that most mischievous agi tation out of doors, if they were to adopt the suggestion of the - Right Ilon. Baronet. The altering the time to a lees., period Sir 11. PEEL—WIy not snake it permanent.—(Cheers.) Lord HOWICK weuld have no objection to that; there were huh it was impossible teloianntitteunan\c'eca.rasr,Ndo:llllellptuirtraogsey a a gi t t le a i i i i l o st upon n the certainty of its many objects to be effected by them , t o w to eau g tainly the:sight that Boards of Guardians ought to be held responsible to some authority, to whom the poor was could appeal against any abuse of authority by the ad ministrators cf the law. It was of a greet advantage to have their advice in cases of doubt, and immense sums had been save'] through their interference in cases of disputed settlement, which under the old system must have been spent in litigation. isl•rsai st ;be ni en) upon for asi 7 n e sb n u ( r )r y , into had s fellers, respecting the rules of the Commissioners. 'The ex i istine law sess defective, he woulul admit, in only requiring o eeneral rules to be submitted to the Secretary of State , so that the same pirtieular rule mig ht be erec te d by the Commis sioners in varionsunions w ithont bein g so submitted. The objc of the clause in the new Bill as lie read it was to put an en d 1 0 i in Honourabledwn Friend,e this evil, and to preven t these rules which, a lt hough nut tech nically c el r s e hisse tt w ero in fact general rules from being adopted without b e - ieg submitted to the consideration o f her Majesty's Governments The only oiler part a filch it 'ails necessary to advert to was with respect to the burial grounds, and as it created some preju dice in tne public mind, when it was thought that a clue had been introduced to prevent the poor being bun d in the ground where their ancestors had bee n b ur i e d, lie th oug ht i -bust just to the framers of the measure t.o say, that the classy was intended to have a very different effeet ; that clause had been introduced with the intention of meeting an evil much complaired of. lie trusted, therefose, that it would hot go to the country that the slightest intention existed on the part of the Commissioners to prevent the settled poor frosts being bu ried in their own parish c h urc h-y ar d. H e t r u s ted the House would excuse him for h av i ng not allow the del ate to close without expressing his opinion shi o i u ,re with respect to the measure. s to oppose Mr. DARBY said that it was not Isis intention thought many of the second reading of the Bill, alt, he e le trusted that she its previsions were highly objectionable , . i t et() burl _- al grounds, Nol de Lord would give up the clause relative i.eh Urea being occupied it so long, but he could cud he trusted also that the be considerably opposite to the his opieion,ll:e present Act W 2 /IC‘ COTlSiaered the refusal provision of the 43d of Elizabet h . hard, mud he could not help of out-door relief exceedingly the Bill was to be to time, thinking that if, from e tin) it might be found that a labour newed, on some ocea . s , '2 h succese. In the present feeling taken from their parents wouldt e l test might be au - mit t s! no c hance of the labour-test being ap plied, the House, he lt.u'eme7siderably modified. In len•ulatiow, it would lead to the iset i g hu i t ur t t li i i , r tr k ; tli b a u t t i a f i it he co w e a h s t be hoapop under proper n plied Although he did net intend to vote best results. second reading of the his ob nd 'fl thought the t ought was to pass in its present shape, he should cer . • , the measure reenaieed unaltered, a the measure would receive great alterations in Committee, it he should net offer any opposition to the second reading. sir. RICE would not give his vote for the second reading of the Bill unless under the hope that it would be consider ably altered in Committee. Ile could riot agree to the exten sion of the Commission for ten years. The Right Hen. Ba ronet, the Member for Tamworth, in alluding, to the rate of wages in Devonshire, where the wages were extremely loves heel stated that the expenditure in the poor-rates was there higher than in almost any other county. In the eastern parts of the eounty of Kent, there was irss out.door relief given under this law than in any other part of the kingdom. The wages varied front twelve to fifteen shillings ; they were new at about fourteen shillie go, and the condition of else poor was better than it had been for years past. In a large parish in his (Mr. Rice's) neighbourhood, great edvantage had been derived from the application of the werkhouse test. In that parish, the year before this Bill passed, there were. n th b e et; , re i e between twenty and thirty labourers constantly enTley n ed their barro g ets 7cati,r,u,srit. the way, and though they did nothing but i sit honest and industiou; they received higher wages than tte , parish, had very great re spectable gentleman, res idingtomwork in his garden. He be labourer. Within two years after the difficulty in getting workm h en e present measure was to encou rage that the object Bill had passed, a b% f U t rer ;- and as lie hoped to see many rage the industrious .a be ex sressenel,is general approval of the detains the Meuse than , r , principle of the ., in Committee., he . would not now further said he regretted that no allusions had the Noble Lord who had proposed this Bill to been made by that clause which would have the effect of annihilating so many amendments Captain - • ••• - - - . _ • . • - . - - - •• - - • . • ... _ I