The Sun. — London, England, 1841-05-11 00:00:00

According to the statements of the Right Hon. Gentle man, the President of the Board Qf Trade, when bring ing forward his Rum Bill, the quantity of sugar grown in th 3 East India ceonies would increase very consider ably ; but, even admitting that no increase took place, there would be an ample supply at a price which could not be complained of. The House had to choose between cheaper sugar—cheaper by some infinitessimal fraction of a farthing per lb., by grinding down the unhappy slaves on the soil of Cuba and the- Brazils, or to extend a fair proportion of protection to their West India colonies. That was the proposition Ministers had ventured to sub ni 4 .t. to a British House of Commons ; but, thank God, t there w as p u bli c sp i r i t and humanity that enough in t House t o re j ect suc h monstrous propositio ns.—(Hear, ha t hear.) M r . D eacon Hume, in his remarks upon subject, said he could not conceive, after the vast expen diture which the British Government had made for the abolition of slavery, that they would ever entertain any question of placing the produce of free labour in Jamaica in competition w ith t h e s l ave - grown sugar o f C u b a and the Bra z il s . H e could not for a moment entertain so absurd a proposition as the bringing forward such mea sures as these, under the plea of an encouragement of free trade. He thought the great object of these manu facturers of Linea-hire and Sheffield, and other places, was to keep the good markets they had got. Now, the Brazils took from them 2,600,0001. instead of 5,000,000/. as had been most erroneously stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, On the other hand, they had the East Indies t.q. 1 .-ing from them five millions of their manufactures, the West le4.ies • taking four millions, and the North American Colonies tithing three millions, and the Right Hon. Gentl eman would sacrifice all these for the trade of the Brazils.— (Hear, hear.) He denied, even if the proposed measure was passed, that there would be any increase of their trade with the Brazils. That, at all events, was an uncertain increase, while their present markets with their own colo nies was certain and progressive. What was the state of progress of th e exports to t h ese p l aces. The increase to the Brazils during the last ten years had been only 8 per cent. ; to the North American Colonies, in the same Inriod, it w as 64 per cent—(Hear, hear)—to British India, it was 84 per cent., to the West Indies, it was Was 40 per cent. To foreign countries generally it was 3 5 per cent., and to their own colonies it was 61 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) What was the natural inference ? Why,, that while they should endeavour to maintain their m ar k e t s with foreign countries, they should more especially take care of their trade with their own colo nies. He believed the present was the first time that in that House commercial questions had been made the subject of party warfare.—(Ministerial cheers.) His (Mr. Colquhoun's) side of the House had been charged with being influenced by factious motives, but what he thought was a factious proceeding, was when a Ministry had been ten years in office without ever having brought forward any measures based upon the principles of free trade ; when they found their energies paralysed, when they found themselves unable to carry any measure, when they had only t o t a k e up a quest i on to damage and injure it—at such a time it was in his judgment nothing but faction and absurdity to throw up their caps in favour of free trade.—(Loud cheers.) On these grounds he should give his hearty concurrence to the motion of his Noble Friend the Member for Liver pool.—(Hear, hear.) • Mr. R. H. GREY had heard the announcement made by her Majesty's Governm en t w i t h very great p l easure. It was on e fraught with the greatest benefit to the manu facturing interests, which it was needless for him to re mind the House was at present in a most depressed state. —(Loud c h eers .) H e had hoped that the very magnitude of these measures would have secured them the approval of all parties ; that, considering they had a falling revenue, and that it was not proposed to lay on any additional taxes, that the comforts of the poorer classes would be increased, and that trade would have been improved. Taking all these ad vantages into consideration, he thought it would have entirely conciliated public favour. He had hoped that even the monopolists themselves, however careless they Might be of the interests of the public at large, would nevertheless have given a tacit consent to the measure. But it now appeared that the interests of party were for the present to prevail—that the interests of the few were to prevail over the many, and the interests of a class over that of the public at large. He would remind the House of the eff or t s w hi c h t h e N o b le Lord (J. Russell) had for so many vainly made to obtain representatives for Manchester, .Birmingham, Leeds, and other large towns ; but when the Noble Lord brought forward a much more sweeping measure of Reform it was carried, and was at present the law of the land.---(Hear, hear.) He was inclined to hope, therefore, notwithstanding the opposition the present proposition received, that it would eventually, with many other commercial re forms, receive the sanction of that House.—(Hear.) With respect to the fears entertained relative to the in troduction of foreign sugars, he could tell the House that, during the ten years which elapsed from 1825 to 1835, we were unable to have one pound of Brazilian sugar imported into this country. So much for the idle fears entertained about East and West India sugar. During the last five years, the price of sugar had been most enormously high ; and, taking the average of duties, the price of Brazil sugar would have been lower by ss. 6d. He must say that the Sugar-laws were more reasonable than the Corn-laws. A great scarcity of sugar often occurred ; but, however great it might be, itr was only reasonable, at all events, when the existing sugar plantations in the East and West Indies could not produce within a large amount of the quantity required, that the people of England ought to be protected against that scarcity. It was asked how would the Chan cellor of the Exchequer make up his revenue in that case ? He answered, that if the East and West Indies supplied abundance of sugar, the revenue would be derived from the great quantity of sugar at the duty of 245. per cwt. Whereas, if a scarcity took place, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would de rive his revenue from the foreign sugar at 365. per cwt. Under all circumstances of the case, lie (Mr. G.) thought that a more reasonable proposition could not be made than that of the Government. It had been said that the poor and labouring prtions of the opulation of thi s country 'would be more content with a p dinner of herbs than with the meat of a stalled ox. It was very well for those who dined every day on a stalled ox to talk in that way .; but would the great masses of the la reuring pop u l at i on of England submit to their being prived of what was a necessary of life. The question on the Sugar Duties was not one of a p enn y more or less la the price of Ilb. of that article ; it was a question of the absolute denial of a necessary of life. He could not see the necessity of passing a law prohibiting nine -tenths of the people of England from using what Was now b ecome a necessary of life, and any law tending t v o raise the price of sugar would have that effect. He reweekl not, o n th e present occasion, enter into any details spectin g t h e subject of the Corn-laws ; but he wished make a remark or two on the necessary connection of the„. two subjects—the Corn-laws and the sugar duties. -tle thought they ought not to be totally separated. Th e • • ability to consume luxuries depended not so m uch en the price of the luxuries as upon the ability of the people to provide themselves w wi h the necessaries of life ; therefore the two questions ere most intimately connected. He was long of opinion that there was no other means of benefiting the same great masses of the people of this country, and at the time of securing the required revenue of fifty mil- lions, unless by providing the people with an ample sup ply of the necessaries of life. All other measures which did not include that within their compass must end in failure and disappointment.—(Ministerial cheers.) It should be remembered that the proportion in which the labouring classes consumed the necessaries and luxuries of life was something of this kind--a family earning from 10s. to 12s. per week expended about Is. on sugar, tea, and coffee, whilst two-thirds of the entire expense of the family was in food, the necessaries of life alone. If that quantity of food were not increased, no individual could have a larger portion of it, nor could his oondition be bet twd. Suppose then were ever so great a demand for la bour he could not see how it could be made available for the purposes of taxation, and for this reason, while the quantity of food was limited, whilst the quantity of food was insufficient for the wants of the people, every individual would bring his double wages, and try to get for th em a fair part of that limited quantity ; and thus the effect would be to increase the price of food, and if all went for food, how was the Treasury to be increased ? The income of the landlords would be increased, but the treasury of the State would be very little swelled. An ample supply of the necessaries of hfe could only be se cured to the people, by increasing the surface of the land from which food was produced. He hoped he would have a future opportunity of going more fully into this question. There could be no doubt that the taxa tion of fifty millions a year was very high, but it should be raised some way or o th er. Manufacturers were a class of persons who were in a very suffering condi tion, by reason of the competition to which they were exposed, and he (Mr. G.) knew of no means of improving their condition but some such measure as the Noble Lord had introduced. The only way of making taxation available to the country--of se curing a revenue, was to extend the bases of our opera tions. That would increase our general commercial prosperity, so as t o ena b le the country to support that which was now a severe burden —the greatly-increased. Population—in a way which would be consistent with the welfare of the country. Mr. WALTER said, in giving his vote on the present important question, he wished to make a few observa tion?. He had voted against that most extraordinary rant of twenty millions sterling for the abolition of Vest Indian slavery on other grounds, as well as because he thought that sufficient inquiry, into the subject had not been made at the time. Considering the degree to which sugar in the market had been since that time affected, that sum fell very far short of the sums taken from the pockets of the British people. Between fifteen and twenty millions more had been expended in attempting to put down the slave-trade, which was at the present time more flourishing than heretofore. It had been calculated also the total sum drawn from the country since the abolition, owing to the advance on West India produce, and other causes, was very little short of five millions. After so much was done for our fellow-creatures of a dark complexion in our colonial possessions to have them raised to a state of com fort, he asked what had resulted from it to the labouring classes at home, both commercial and agricultural? Was their condition improved ? On the contrary were they not rendered less capable of obtaining the nee ' essaries of l ife, one of which was sugar ? He (Mr. Walter) would ex at least hope that a little of th a t f eel i ng which had been hibited in favour of the negro would be extended to our own poor. The Government, it appearecl,had an idea that by the scheme they proposed, they would lower the price of the commodities, and increase the revenue. !l i e doubted the possibility of that. In other cases he l en,ght it most desirable, and he would concur in such ; b . : t he had conversed with most intelligent merchants on the subject, who were as anxious as Ministers to relieve trade from all shackles, and he found they had not the slightest confidence in the financial measures proposed, Particularly with rArence to the diminution of the G ED ITION duties on foreign sugar. It was proposed to lay on ino did t h Lord a t he e could w ms calculated not a y t htaot conferthe appreciableadopted higher a duty than 12s. per cwt. beyond what was m- Noble posed on sugar from our own colomes. That, he was lief, and that there were no just grounds for expecting told, was no protection at all, on account of the greater resolution eorluetts of f h h ic i h s h N e o d h e l t: F ieilerd,ntd the Memberhatheshould for vote Liver tries foritehre_ quantity of saccharine matt e r produced in foreign coun tries than in our colonies. There were other grounds pool.—(Hear, hear.) y LAß ques ° ti ll 'on CHE befo ß re E T on which he objected to the proposed scheme. H ro e_ thought, if the finances of the country had been pro- the the House, c H o o nf os es e s, al S l i d r, t t h h e at on if ly l thought motires Noble F 'e d amel that being agreed at a crisis of perly managed, there would have been no need of the al- which could influence its decision, were those stated by my terations • and he was satisfied of the incompetency of n — . n y, those who produced the mischief to remedy it.— great hieh c w o a m s m to erc h i e al (Hear, hear.) Without proposing to alter the Corn-laws. w differencep all ur d sue fi d n , a t n li c e ial onl d y iffieu lty on o t f h e courseopinion he must co n f ess himself to be favourable to some between us was this—whether there were not special cir change in them, a lth oug h th e am ount of duty he was cumstances connected with th e suga r t ra de which should disposed to supp or t wou ld d e p en d o n what was done be w ith exempt it from the op era ti on o f pr in c ipl es w hi c h we a llow the present Poor-lawßill. A Noble Lord (Darlington) to just and necessary, as applied to other branches the other n i g ht was so kind as to speak in terms of high of commerce and industry in thi s country—l say if I could approbati on o f a contest i n w hi c h h e (Mr. W.) was believe that was th e s t a t e o f t h e question at this moment, personally concerned, and thought that the result of that I should feel, I will not say entirely indifferent, but cer contest might have influenced Ministers in the course tainly comparatively indifferent, with regard to the deci they had adopt e d. Wh e ther such was the case or not, sion to which the Ho use m i g ht come . B u t it i s be it did not b ecome hi m t o sa y ; b u t of this he was cer- cause from various symptoms, a nd es p e cially from decla tain, that the issue of that election, and the consideration rations made in the course of this debate, and even of the principles which decided it, ought to influence this night—it is because I have heard a Gentleman repre- Hon. Members on both sides of the House. senting other grea t p ro t ect i ng i nterests come forward and Lord F. EGERTON, the commencement of whose state that they considered this was a case which was observations were not Audible in the gallery, was under- common to them all—that he found there was, on the stood to say, that he had listened to the able speech of ' part of the manufacturing and commercial interests of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies this country, a growing opinion now forcing itself on the with that attention with which he always did, attention of the Legislature, that it was necessary without and to the speech of the Right Honourable delay to take meesures for an alteration or revision of our Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and commercial and financial system generally,—l say, when it appeared to him that the subject they introduced was I see the advocates of these important interests saying classified by them under the head of " deficiency in the they will admit of ne touter .wise—that they will hear of revenue," which they proposed to make up and relieve no concession —(Hear, hear)—that they will oppose a the consumers of this country by lowering the price of relaxation in the sugar duties, not from any refined spe the commodity named. With respect to the first of culation with regard to its effects on sl av ery or th e slave those he confessed that it was a question that would trade, but because they consider that in defend puzzle a more expert financier than himself to deal with. ing the sugar duties they are defending their own He would not, therefore, trouble the House with system of monopoly and exclusion,—when I see those that part of the subject. It was true that the Noble Lord things, I confess that Ido look with the utmost anxiety said that there was an alarming and painful deficiency, to the course which the House may pursue upon the but that had arisen from causes over which they had no present occasion. When I consider the importance of control, but had arisen from causes in which they (the the question, I do not desire to make it a matter for Opposition) had participated as largely as themselves party calculation ; nor shall I enter into those allega (the Ministers). All the extra expenses which had been tions bandied from one side of the House to the other. incurred was supported by the other side •of the At the same time there have been accusations brought House. That was, after all, a mere accusation. against the party to which I belong, which I feel it my When certain & emergencies occurred, involving the duty to notice. We have been told that the Whigs are honour and commercial existence of this country, always talking about free trade, but, somehow or other, they (the Opposition) did not oppose measures it happens that when they are in office, free trade mea proposed for their remedy. Canada, they were told, was sures are never carried ; while, on the contrary, when a subject of expense originating in causes which were the Tories are in office, if they bring forward any mea brought into existence fifty years ago. He (Lord F. sures of a liberal nature with regard to commercial po- Egerton) thought that some of the discontents and diffi- licy, they succeed in carrying those measures, I con culties originated in the conduct of those fro m w h om th e sid er th a t th ey a d m i t o f a very easy solution.—(Hear.) Noble Lord sought his best support. With respect to Sir, I have been long enough in this House to China, he considered it an open subject for any discus- remember Mr. Huskisson's exertions on the subject, and sion that might affect the conduct of Ministers. With I am sure that no one will deny my representation of respect to the second division of the subject—relief to the the state of things at that time. I remember Mr. consumers of this country—it was a question of higher Huskisson as a Tory Minister bringing forward those interest than any other consideration. When the Noble great views and sagacious measures, which must ever Lord brought the subject before the House, he (Lord F. endear his name and memory to the whole of his Egerton) thought that he devoted more energy to the country. I remember him bringing them forward topics than he generally did. The Noble Lord drew a with the sullen and reluctant acquiescence of the picture of the operative turning away in disappointment great body of his own party.—(lVlinisteral cheering.) and despair at the excessively high price of the commo- I remember that he received the honest, warm, dity. It was not the business of the Noble Lord to de- and cordial support of his political opponents.— bate the question as he had debated it—to call the atten- (Loud cheers.) They did not raise petty cavils tion of the House to the more cheering prospect of the upon his great measures ; they knew what a matter of supply of sugar for th e ne x t season—but it was his busi- difficulty any alteration in our commercial policy is ; ness to show, with his usual ability, the prat- they knew that on such a subject nothing could be tical and appreciable relief that would result more unworthy than to cavil upon details ; and although from the measure which he proposed.—(Hear.) there were many points on which they did not think So far as he could calculate, the reduction in the price of that he altogether carried out their principles into full sugar, which would follow from the proposed measure, effect, they felt that it was but just, that it was but their would not amount to more than six-tenths of a farthing duty, to that statesman who had the courage to look in the pound, which would not make the average reduc- into the face of those great protective interests in this tion for each individual in the kingdom amount to more country, when he believed that the privileges they en than 2i-d. per year. He did not undervalue that reduc- joyed would bring nothing but ruin into the country, tion, provided the measure by which it was to be effected to give him their cordial and disinterested support.— were not liable to other grave, and as he (Lor F. Eger- (Cheers.) I think this difference of conduct between ton) considered insurmountable objections. The Noble the two parties may account for that which was made Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, attempted to de- matter of taunt and accusation against us.—(Cheers.) prive every Member on that (the Opposition) side of the The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Colquhoun) told House, with the exception of the Noble Lord the Mem- us to-night that we had brought no measure of improved ber for for North Lancashire, of any right to advocate commercial policy of any consequence before the House the cause of the enslaved negroes. Now for his (Lord during the ten years we have been in office. Sir, I re- F. Egerton's) part, ..he had not, like the Right Hon. member, and some Hon. Gentlemen opposite must re- Gentleman, the Member for the Tower Hamlets, grown member, the Noble Lord the Member for North grey in that cause, but he knew no reason why he Lancashire (Lord Stanley) and the Right Hon. Baronet should be deprived of his right to read the work of Mr. the Member for Pembroke (Sir J. Graham) must re- Gurney, and to draw from it his own conclusions. It member, that a great and important measure of com appeared to him that it had been made out almost to mercial policy was brought forward by the Government, demonstration, that the Noble Lord was now taking a I allude of course to the Timber Duties.—(Cheers.) The course which, as far as regarded the article under con- measure then brought forward closely resembled the sideration, would positively give not merely a stimulus to measure now brought forward by the Government. It is the employment of slaves, but would give a stimules to that my belief that if that measure had been carried, then worst feature of the case the traffic in slavery in the co- the greatest benefit would have resulted to the country. lonies, which would not only give a bonus to Cuba itself; —(Hear, and cheers.) But unfortunately that was not that plague spot of the world, the centre and the focus the case. It was quite true that the Right Hon. Mem of the trade, but extend that worst of all crimes ever com- ber for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) and the gentlemen who witted by man. It was impossible, in his opinion, for then acted with him, did not on principle oppose that those who had paid the least attention to that great sub- measure, but they used that convenient plea which is ject, which it was impossible and which it would be always employed by those who do not wish to give direct indefensible to overlook, not to see that the proposed opposition to a measure, but still wish to defeat,it, that measure would aggravate an evil already so great. A they were not satisfied without inquiry, and because it great difference of opinion had certainly been expressed was not sent to a Committee up stairs, the measure was in that House on that subject. The Hon. Member for refused.—(Cheers.) I think this refusal of the first Wigan and the Hon. Member for London, however, had great measure of trade brought forward by the Whig that night treated the question with the seriousness Government was not very encouraging to them to persist which it deserved, and had expressed their sentiments, in a similar course—(Hear, hear)—and feeling, as every founded on philosophical principles of their own, that the Government ought to do, that unless the case was an cause of humanity to the slave and ultimate suppression of urgent one, and the interests of the country generally the slave-trade, would be advanced by the measure which were suffering from a want of proper alteration, that it the Noble Lord had proposed, by an extension of corn ; was no slight evil to bring forward a measure of this mercial intercourse in those commodities which are the kind unless it were brought to a successful production, of that slave-trade. He could not follow those issue. —(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) I say deductions, and he could not assent to those propositions. that under these circumstances nothing would have justi- He should admit, however, that the subject was treated fled the Government in doing so, except their common by them with ability, and in that tone which became the sense of the state of the country was such, that it was discussion of such a question. He was somewhat sur- absolutely necessary that such a measure should be prised on a former occasion to have been compelled to passed by the Legi s l a t ure , an d t h at ot h erw i se the most consider that it had b een t rea t e d i n a tone of levity by serious consequences must ensue to the commerce of the the Hon. Member for Lambeth—(Hear, hear)--which he conntry. I believed that it had reached that state — (Lord F. Egerton) thought unsuitable to the occasion. (Cheers)—and I repeat what I said before, that lam a The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had re- strong party man. I wish to see the party with whom I cently entered into a dissertation on the state of the repre- have always acted, maintained in power, but I declare sentation of the metropolitan boroughs, and had uttered that such is my solemn conviction of the absolute neces some very strong opinions on the results of that portion of sity in the present state of trade and manufactures, and the Reform Bill which had given representatives to these in the pubhc feeling of the country, that we should in boroughs. It was not for him (Lord F. Egerton) to deal out troduce a thorough and searching reform into our com any criticism on that subject, but he should say that the mercial system, that I should that I should think that complaint then made by the Noble Lord was at least a the happiest day of my life when I saw these principles strange and anomalous one. The Hon. Member for Lam- fairly acted upon by those to whom I have always been beth gave it as his opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman politically opposed, if they occupied the seat of power the Member for the Tower Hamlets, might perh a p s ma i n - an d I trust t h at I should give them as cordial, sincere, taro that slavery was in itself sinful, and that it ought not and honest support as I now give to the measure of those be encouraged ; no very unreasonable proposition cer- to whom lam both personally and politically attached. tainly, and no very extravagant one for the Right Hon. —(Cheers.) But, perhaps, lam a little wandering from Member for the Tower Hamlets to maintain—(Hear, the subject matter before the House. Sir, I will corn hear)—but the Honourable Member for Lambeth mence by endeavouring to relieve the Government, and said that that was a principle which all bigots myself in particular, from the accusations which have might appeal to for enforcing their own opi- been brought against us in the course of this debate by 'lions. They might call upon the House to pass several gentlemen, and by which it has been attempted Acts of uniformity, for the purpose of settling to raise a prejudice against the measure before the matters of faith and ceremonials ;_ and on the same g r o un d Hou se . It has been stated that th e Government have the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower dealt unfairly by the great interests involved in this Hamlets might come forward with enactments to en- question, that they have been taken by surprise, force the suppression of the slave trade. Now it was and that our conduct had led them to assume that not necessary for him (Lord F. Egerton) to enter into no alteration would be made in the sugar duties. This, any defence of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he might I think, is a fair statement of the accusation against us, be allowed to say that the attempt would be superflous, and the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hogg), who is an East In as he had never heard a vindication more able and more dia Director, quoted a speech I made on the sugar duties complete than that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had last year, as a proof of my inconsistency. I think I have himself made.---(Hear, hear.) He would ask whether it a right to complain of the manner in which he did so, was a false, a fictitious, and spurio us h uman i ty w hi c h f or a more gar b led account . of a speech I never heard. made them shrink and hesitate before they interfered in The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tamworth, what he should consider a most critical moment for also alluded to the speech, and did me the justice to say that great experiment—a moment when they might hope that in his opinion there was nothing in the speech to that in the West Indies the throes of parturition were preclude me from the course I have felt it my duty to over, and that the time had come when they might bless take on the present occasion. —(Cheers.) But, Sir, I Providence for the success which had attended their efforts ? can state other facts to show the House that at It was not a want of philanthropy which induced them to any rate these interests have not been taken by sur pause before adopting a course which might fatally interfere prise. Why, the Right Hon Gentleman (Mr. Goul with those results. The Noble Lord the Secretary for burn) whom I saw cheering these sentiments last night, the Colonies no doubt was at present actively employed presented fifteen petitions from Jamaica and other West in endeavouring, as far as the resources of diplomacy India colonies, in which the petitioners stated that they enabled him, to check, in other quarters of the world, a were abundantly satisfied that the Government were similar traffic to that of the African slave-trade. He about to alter the sugar duties. It struck me as extra had no doubt but the Noble Lord, for instance, was using ordinary, that these petitions should have been forth his influence with the Sultan, and that good-humoured coming on the present occasion ; but it appears they had old gentleman who governed Egypt, to effect a cessation, been lying in the drawer of the Right Hon. Gentleman, or at least a mitigation, and, ultimately, the extir- and were brought forth to be discharged on the present pation of a system which prevailed in Africa, and occasion. I must also say, that, in the course of the across the Atlantic Ocean. They had heard, the present year, I received many intimations froin gentle in hother day, from a distinguished public officer who men connected with the West Indian interest, and they ad been employed on the coast of Syria, that, almost universally asked if I would not pledge myself a conversation with the Pacha, the latter stated that the sugar duties should not be altered in the pre that he hated the slave trade, but that he wished sent Session. My answer was, that I could give no to get time for its abolition—that he could not do pledge of the sort, and that the Government would deal these things in a hurry. The example of Eng- with the question as they should think necessary. land was doubtless quoted to him and made its due im- But there was one declaration made before the last two pression. But the Pacha was acquainted with the affairs years of so much importance, that I will venture to read of England, and he would soon be enabled to say, if the it to the House, and I will put it to any fair man whether Noble Lord's measure were carried by a majority of that it is not of itself a complete exposition of the views and House, that though England had emancipated her slaves sentiments of her Majesty's Government. This speech at a great national expense, and had thus given a bril- was delivered in the House of Commons in 1839 by Mr. liant example to the rest of Europe, that when difficulties Poulett Thomson, then President of the Board of overtook her she had, for the sake of a reduction of six- Trade. He said that "he admitted that it was a matter tenths of a farthing on the pound of sugar, abandoned of great importance, and one which would be forced on the great experiment they had made.—(Hear, hear.) the attention of the country in a short period. In the let them pass that measure, and they would lose that ele- first place, this was a matter which would force itself on yated station which they held in the Courts of Europe— the attention of the Government, as connected with the let them pais that measure, and they would descend from Treaty of Brazil. The present Treaty was of a tempo the high ground which they held in Egypt and in Con- nary character, and would expire in 1842 ; and if we en stantinople--let them pass that measure, and for hu- tered into fresh relations with that important State, this inanity and consistency he believed they would do well was a subject which must be considered. The exports to that to go much further. He should say that what he had country were upwards of 4,000,0001., and were the most heard from to Hon. Member for London induced him to important, with the exception of the United States. The form conclusions very different from those to which the produce of Brazil was confined to sugar and coffee, and Hon. Gentleman himself came, for he thought his state- when they came to the period at which the treaty was ment showed that it would be more humane to allow about to expire, this subject must force itself on the at- - Weir slave tiaressels to issue once more from Liverpool tention of the House. The other branch of the subject under proper, restrictions and with Government inspec- was also a matter of deep importance—namely, the short tors, if they willed, and to legitimize the traffic, than to give supply of colonial sugar. It was important to look at this to it in its present illegal form the encouragement question, but he was satisfied it must be forced on the at which would be the result of the proposal of her Ma- tention of the Government 'and the Legislature, if not by jesty's Ministers. The West Indians too might call the wants of the people of this country at any rate by the upon them, in removing all restrictions, to remove the treaty of Brazil, and he trusted it would be most fairly and restriction imposed upon them of not employing slave fully treated, and in a way which a matter of so much im labour. They might tell them that when they wanted portance deserved, when it came for the con them to compete with Cuba they would be ready to do sideration of the House."—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I think, so—that they would be ready to contend w i t h t h e w i t h t h at cons i stent reserve it is important fertility of the soil of that island, which need only be the Government should observe on matters relating to renewed after a term of fifty years, while their own changes in trade, it is scarcely possible to have given should be renewed e ver y f our years—but that it would a more full notice than members of the Government at be fair in the first place to place them on an equal different times have given to the House on the present footing with their soopetitors. They had lately collected subject.—(Cheers.) Sir, I certainly could have thought the rank and the Talent of the country in Exeter Hall, and myself almost relieved from the necessity of arguing the the had brought the first subje c t i n t h e realm to head the pha- propriety of a change in the sugar duti es w i t h refe lanx for the purpose of dis cou ntenancing the s l ave trade, to the interests of the consumer and the revenue. It and they could not now abandon the cause which they appears to me so obvious that on all general principles had advocated. They had given the name of the Prince a differential duty of 50 per cent. ad valorem on such an gracefully and properly to that vessel which they had article as sugar is a state of things so unsound, and that House in ar4uing equipped for its mission of mercy-- the evils which must ensue are almost so inevitable, that God and the good angels guide her as she goes. I must be wasting the time of the For not of conquest greedy or of gain a proposition that is almost self-evident.—(Cheers.) Seeks she the distant world ; But, Gentlemen, though admitting that if they merely but he s h ou ld sa y th e y would do well to abandon the en- took the question with regard to the revenue terprise if th e y a c c e ded to the measure then under their no strong case could be made out against the alteration, ,f-Pnsideration. It was for these reasons, thinking s ha yet think, they can arrive at a different conclusion on the ON, whole question. We have been told th at sugar is not an article on which the' consumption del )ends very nicely on the price ; that it is rather an arti el e of luxury, not one of those necessaries on which t hi: consumption de pends mu c h on t h e pr i ce. I o b s erve that in the Hou se of Commo ns i n 1829 w hen the q nestion of the sug ar duties was brou g ht b e f ore the. 1.10 1 Ise of Commons by Mr. Huski sson an d Sir G. Clerk, much discussion took place on that point, and l 'he lion. Member for Cam bridge (Mr. Gisborne) mentioned sugar as not of th e class of articl es o f t h at d escr i i Lion. But I confess I think the argument M r . H uskissontl yen employed was a ve r y proper one t o di sprove the pos i t ion of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and I must say, a l so, from subsequent expe rience of the consumpt i on of sugar in this country, that there is no arti c l e on w hi ch a re d uct. on of price is more, ipti2n, and this to produce an increase of consun. -111- . on d. t fti tus sub tics, though • quently of revenue. lam aware that Oil. Possible. • is 1 cult to ject are always dry ; but, at the same time, 1. . argue these matters without reference to statis. I assure the House I will do so as sparingly . I hold in my hand calculations of gentlemen in the .Statis tical Department of the Board of Trade, which ~tneY have made on the following principle :—They have giv."n me the average price of sugur in the London Gazette for a series of years, the quantity imported in those years, and the aver age consumpt i on of eac h individual in the United Kingdom during the same time. The quantity will not be found to agree with the statements of the officers of the Customs, because it is calculated on a somewhat different principle. In the first place, the error is avoided w hi c h a ff ects t h e ca l cu l a ti ons f the Customs in all the first years, owing *l. , the erroneous manner of calculcating the bounty on the sugar ex ported ; it also includes molasses converted into sugar, and all saccharine matter introducld into this country. I find that i n 183 0 the quant i ty Of tons imported was 213,000, and th a t t h e pr i ce of sugar—(my object is show the House how the consumption is affected by the ifice)— was 25s,the quantity consumed per head in the United King dom being 19.941b5. ; that in 1831 the price was 235.8 d., average consumption per head 20.111b5. ; in 1832, price 28s. Bd. consumption 19 lbs. ; in 1833, price 295. con sumption 17.991b5. ; in 1834, price 295. 21d., consump tion, 18 . 311b5. ; in 1835 (a year which forms a re markable exception to the others), price 335. 90. con sumption 19 . 211b5. I beg the House to remark the consequence of this consumption. 'The year 1835 was a year of remarkably cheap bread.—(Cheers.) I quite allow that the price of bread in this country is the regulating cause of every article of general consump tion, but I think it important, at the same time, to put the sugar trade on a proper footing, and to put the corn trade on a proper footing at the same time.—(Cheers.) I would also add that the year 1825 was a year of great improvement and a year' of great export, and that the working classes were well off. In 1836 the price of sugar rose to 40s. 9d. and the consumption fell to 16.58 ; in 1837 the price was 345. 5d., the con sumption was 18.38 ; in 1838 the price was 335. 7d., the consumption 18.42 ; in 1839 the price was 375. 44d., the consumption 17.16 ; in 1840 the price was higher than it had ever been, it having risen to 48s. 7id., and the con sumption of sugar per h ea d f e ll i n t h e United Kingdom to 15.28 per head.—(Cheers.) So, if we compare the first year of the series with the last, we shall find the consumption of sugar per head throughout the United Kingdom had fallen nearly one-fourth.--(Cheers.) When you come to consider that this diminished consumption does not affect the higher classes in any considerable degree, but falls upon the poorer classes, it is impossible not to conceive what privations they must have under gone during this period of low consumption. I remember that in the year 1829 Mr. Huskisson said, when speak ing of sugar as it then was, that two-thirds of the poor consumers of coffee drank it without any sugar at all ; yet when he made that decla ration, the price of sugar was lower than it is at this moment ; therefore I apprehend that by this reduction the provision of this class must be considerably in creased. I feel, really, that this is not a part of subject with which it is necessary to detain the House at any length ; I think we may defer nice calculations with regard to the degree of interest which the consumers have in the reduction of sugar, and as to the amount of revenue we may depend on being derived from it. I shall only say with regard to the amount of revenue, that I am satisfied that if we are allowed to go into Com mittee on this resolution—that place where alone a sub ject of this description can only be discussed with advan ta6nv—l am sur e m y Right Ho n . F r i en d t h e Chancellor of the Exchequer, will have no difficulty in convincing the House that his calculation, so far from being san guine or extravagant, is a very moderate one indeed.— (Hear, hear.) I have consulted those persons whose long experience enables them to give an opinion on the subject, and on whom, not only the present, but former Governments, have been accustomed to rely for calcul a ti ons of this de scription ; I have not found one of them who was not of the opinion, as far as this question affected the revenue, that the revenue which we anticipate may be safely expected. I pass on without entering on the question whether the revenue is received in the shape of a duty on British sugar or foreign sugar. I admit the difficulty of seeing exactly what will be the course of the sugar trade in the next year.—(Hear.) A great deal is talked about the prospective supply we may have from different ports of our colonial possessions next year. I have attempted to inform myself on that part of the subject, but I re ceived from the parties best able to speak upon it such various and contradictory statements that it is clearly im possible to pronounce a decided opinion about it. The first opinion I find in a petition presented to the House by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth, from planters, merchants, and others in London, interested in the British colonies. I find their state ment is—Stock in ziaa.l, 35,000 tons ; in the West Indies, 115,000 tons ; in the Mauritius, 35,000 tons ; and in the East Indies, 62,000 tons. These parties are undoubtedly competent to form an opinion ; but the other day the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool called on me with a deputation from the Bengal merchants and West India proprietors connected with the sugar trade in the town of Liverpool, and they made a statement of the possible expectations for the following year which I re quested them to put in writing, which I find varies in a very extraordinary manner from the statement made by the merchants and planters in London. They agree as to the stock in hand, which is represented by all at 35,000 tons. They agree also as to the 28,000 from the West Indies. But when they come to the Mauritius, I find that the gentlemen from Liverpool adopt an estimate of 10,000 higher than the London de putation.—(Hear, hear.) They also estimate the quan tity to be expected from the East Indies at 70,000 tons ; whereas the London gentlemen calculate on a supply of only 62,000.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, when I find such va riance amongst those g en tl emen, I mus t h ave some f urt h er grounds before I can give full credit to either statement. —(Hear, hear.) lam quite willing to admit this gene ral fact, that I have no doubt in the world that the sup plies coming from the East Indies may be greatly increased. (Cheers from the Opposition benches.) But I beg the House to consider, in reference to this part of the subject—th at i t i s of importance that we should now revise our sugar duties, and put them upon a staple and sound footing, upon the permanence of which the country can trust.—(Hear, hear.) If there were no other reason for this it would be sufficient to induce me to that determination, when I see the manner n which capital, attracted by the extravagant prices of the last year, is making to the East Indies.—(Cheers.) Sir, I am satisfied that such a state of things can only lead to the worst results.—(Hear, hear.) I beg the House to recollect what is the nature of the sugar sup ply in India.—(Much noise in the House and cries of " Order, order, Bar, bar.") It should be considered, Sir, that India is a great sugar consuming country.— , (Cries of "Hear, hear, hear.") They only send to us what they cannot use themselves, except when they are attracted by our high prices.—(Hear.) It is sat so with the West Indians, who first send us all they produce.—(Hear.) India is not a source of supply upon which we can depend except upon a calculation of high prices.—(Hear.) Sir, if we desire to deal with this sub ject as a question of trade we shall find that for the benefit of the colonies and of our commerce, as well as for that of the consumer, the best course is to put it upon a sound footing —to give the colonies such a _pro tection as the case may require, but not ,to allure them on by a monopoly, which could never be for the advantage of the sugar trade or any other trade. I do not see any reason why the prin ciples which are sound in respect to every other trade should not be equally so in reference to the sugar trade. --(Hear.) Sir, I am now excluding all considerations of slavery and the slave-trade—(Cheers from the Oppo sition)—and I only urge this as a financial and commer cial question—and I do not think that any reasonable man, accustomed to consider these subjects, will refuse to apply to the sugar trade the same principles which are found to be applicable to all other trades. We should give the colonies a fair protection for their sugar trade, but not a monopoly, which could be neither good for them nor for us.—(Cheers, and cries of " Order, order," " Bar, bar.") I will now, Sir, come . to that which has been mainly relied on b$ Gentlemen opposite, in respect to this proposition of her Majesty's Ministers—l mean the question of slavery and the slave -trade.—(Cheers.) Sir, I do not stand here to make light of those objections. My Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets has only repeated the arguments which I have often heard from him, and although I differ from him in the conclusions to which he has arrived, I sin cerely respect and appreciate his motives.—(lronical cheers from the Tories.) But I ask himself to consider the grounds on which the question now comes before the House. Sir, the more the grounds on which he draws the distinction in this case come to be considered, the less solid and substantial they appear.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) The argument comes to this, that if we ; admit the sugar of Brazil, we should be encouraging the cul- I ask the H ouse tivation of sugar by slaves—that we should b e encourag i ng the slave-trade, and especially the import a ti on o f s l aves hear.) Now, effect of fthestem Sir,sy now pursued? We export a very large quantity of B t in o tc) co ß ns r i a d zil er .— wlia tie ti a s r ih ritish manufactures to Brazil. How are those goods paid for ?—(Cheers.) They are paid for in the only thing Brazil has got to pay us in—the produce of slave-labour, and especially sugar. —(Cheers.) It is qu ite true that we do not bring it directly to England to be consumed. But we bring it here in large quantities to be refined and taken out to other parts of the world. Every one who knows any thing of the trade with Brazil, must know in what way the trade is crippled.--(Hem) It is gradually decreas ing, and if the system be not altered, it will rapidly dwindle to nothing.—(Hear.) But we do not the less en courage their slave trade in the mean time.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) We do not the less, for every bale of British goods receives payment in the produce of slave labour.—(Cheers.) This is not the first time the ques tion has been thus argued in the House of Commons. It was so argued in 1829 by Mr. Grant (now Lord Glenelg), who brought forward a si milar measure, with the consent of his colleagues, includ ing the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for Tamworth, and the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer. The latter gentleman certainly said that he differed from his Right Ron. Friend on the question of finance, but .not upon the AY 1.14 19u. principle pf the measure.—(Cheers.) I do not ' mean to say that the circumstances are precisely the . same.— (Cheers.) I admit that we had not then p assed the measure of emancipation.—(Vehement cheer ing from the Tories.) There is this analogy, however, i n the two cases, that the slave-trade was then rife in Cu let and in Brazil.--(Cheers.) Did not the West Indi a; is then come forward to say, yoA are going to er :pose u s to the competiti on of those who have unri lstricted supplies of slaves, and yea will not allow us to iw port for ourselves.—(The Right Hon. Gentleman then r ead ex tracts from the speeches of Mr. Grant and lkti r. Goul burn on that occasion (1829), to show that th eir views were the same as those which he had endeavor red to en force.) Ido not propose that we should at r 11 relax in our exertions to put down the slave trade.—(( Iheers and cries of " Oh, oh.") But the time at which th as impor tant question of our commercial relations wi .th Brazil must be settled seems to me to have arrived. I heard with great surprise, Gentlemen who are connected with trade and manufactures, speak of our for ii gn trade as unimportant, when compared with our home ca msump non of manufactures—(Hear, hear)—wherear in the year 1839, the date of the last returns, the• amount of our home trade was only 16,700,000/.„ whilst pur foreign trade amounted to 24,640,000/.--- <Hear.) T11:)se who ace concerned in our foreign trade vii 3w with extreme alarw the expiration of our commerci i I treaty with Brt,:zil. r.,t is true that although the Brazil 'a ins sup pose that t;:e tree, ty will expire in 1842, we are co evinced that we are justified in insisting upon its being e nforced up to 1845. But the people of Brazil feel much it :itation with us on account of the restrictions we impce e upon their trade with this country, and considering I he vast importance of their trade to us, and the opening -, xhich it affords for an extended trade with all the interne • of the vast and rich continent of South America, I thin V it most desirable that we should take this opportunity of conciliating their good feelings, and prep icing to renew the treaty upom amicable terms.--(Her tr, hear.) There is another point of view in which I should wish the House to consider this question. If we a pply this principle to sugar, why should we not apply it to other articles the produce of slave labour, and why sl iould we not apply it to coffee ? By the treaty with Brazil i, we are bound to take the produce on the same footing '; as we take the produce of the most favoured nation. Sugar is one of their most staple articles of prod' ice, but coffee is also one of their staple articles. N( nv, how do we treat with regard to coffee, we keep to th e words of the treaty, but how do we keep it in fact ? 11 to make the fact of coffee having touched at the Cape c e Good Hope, a reason for lessening the duty on that iartiele. Java coffee can touch at the Cape with little or ic r incon venience, while coffee from Rio Janeiro and the Brazils would have to go half round the world to touch . at the Cape of Good Hope. The consequence is, the it while keeping to the strict letter of the treaty ; we, in fact, admit coffee, the produce of Java, at a lower di zty than coffee the produce of the Brazils and Rio Janie ro, thus keeping to the letter but eluding the spirit of tha treaty. —(Cheers.) This furnished Brazils undoubtedl3 r with a just cause of complaint. Now if we proposed to redress this evil—if we proposed to allow Brazils to hill (oft her coffee directly into this country, instead of forciu kher to introduce it in a circuitous mann er , wou ld i t be fair to refuse it on the ground that we s h ou ld b e thereby' giving a stimulus to slave labour, by allowing that c( iffee to be brought into the English market ? Are you pre pared to say that for the purpose of putting down the slave trade, you will refuse to export your manufactures .. :to any country in which slave labour is empl o y e d, for tlrks you must do if you are consistent ? Can you act in thi's man ner, restricting the commerce of this great coun try?— (Cheers.) Ido not believe there can be found al iy man mad enough or rash enough to support s arch a proposition. There is another point of view in which we are bound to consider this ques tion. I am of opinion that it is our bounden duty to use every practicable means in our power, and to exert every influence we possese 4 to at tempt the suppression of the slave trade.—(C !beers.) But I would ask the House to consider if we are likely to obtain that object by refusing to hold all come aircial intercourse with slave-holding nations ; or if we : tee not more likely to obtain it by cultivating commercie ii rela tions with those countries, by encouraging Englishmen, with English habits and English feelings, to go out and settle among them, diffusing among them that intelligence and that good feeling whi( di in variably is the consequence of Englishmen settling among any nations ? Are we noemore likely to obtain our ob ject by these means than by declaring we will h .old no intercourse with them ? Her Majesty's Gover Inflect has been actuated by them on a very recent oc easion, and believing them to be just has acted on them a ecorcl ingly.—(Cheers.) With the republic of the Te sas we have recently concluded a commercial treaty. We thought it right to do so. We were satisfied that it was our duty to the country to do so. But did we, i n pur suing that course, lose sight of the great cause which we always have in view—the suppression of the slave to ade ? No such thing., My Noble Friend the Secretar y of State for Foreign Affairs expressed his willingness to sign the commercial treaty which they wanted, hi at he said to them—" At the same time that I sign the ,com mercial treaty you must enter into another treaty by which you bind yourselves to exercise that which has always been found to be the most effectual mea as for the suppression of the slave trade—the right of se: arch." —(Cheers.) The granting of the right of search ,of all vessels suspected of carrying slaves was mad e the sine qua non to the signing the commercial t reaty. —(Loud cheers) This I consider is a much more effec tual method of suppressing the slave trade than if we were to cripple our commerce by refusing all cot nmer cial intercourse with slave-holding States. If this mea sure were to be considered by itself, Sir, if it were proposed as an unconnected isolated measure, I could then understand how the proposal for an alteration in the sugar duties might lead other nations to suppose that we did not now stand upon that high ground with respect to the slave trade which we had hitherto used to occupy. That is one reason which justifies the Govern ment inhaving suffered this question of the sugar deities to remain so lonli. If it had not been for the p& pose of giving a breathing time to the West Indians, and of letting other countries see that we were not to 'be in duced o relax in the great xperiment--the coming out of the emancipation the Government of this country would have been most culpable in not proposing these alterations long before.--(Hear, hear.) But it must be considered in a very different light, when this proposition is only considered as part of a _great whole.—(Loud cheers.) Foreign countries must now see that these alterations do not refer to sugar alone ; but that, having on general grounds become convinced the necessity of a re f orm o f our commerc i a l tar iff, it would be absurd indeed it we were to except sugar from those alterations. That alone is a sufficient excuse for those who last year thought that it was not right to en tertain the question as an isolated proposition, but now as a part of a great whole will be perfectly justified in voting in favour of the measure. If the House were called upon to decid e thi s ques ti on on i ts own merits only, if there were no other questions connected with it, I will not affect to d en y th at I s h ou ld not feel the anxiety on the subject which I now feel ; but it is be cause I cannot doubt that the decision will be on a far greater and more important subject, that I feel an anxiety on the subject beyond ,what language can ex press.—(Cheers.) I am not disposed to hold the lan guage of despondency about the future, because I appre ciate as highly as any man the great national advantages which this country possesses. I know that in her situa tion, in her great mineral wealth, and in other re spects, she possesses great and important advantages over other countries, and I believe that most of all does she possess an incalculable advantage—one of more import ance than all the others, in the indomitable energy of her people.—(Loud cheers.) An energy which may be exhibited as patriotically and as honourably at the loom or by the exercise of industry, as on the field of battle, by sea or by land.—(Loud cheers) But I feel it would not be wise or humane to tax that energy too far.—(hear, hear, and cheers.) I am satisfied that we are now come to one of those re volutions in commerce, to one of those crises in the manu facturing and commercial affairs of the country, which, according to the course we may pursue, must be produc tive of great good or of incalculable evil.—(Cheers.) At a former crisis of this nature Mr. Huskisson was, happily for the country, in the councils of the Crown. He found a state of things existing requiring the greatest and most extensive alterations. He proposed them and car ried them, notwithstanding the opposition of particular interests, for he was supported by all the great leading statesmen of the country, who felt that the interests of the country were at stake, and refused to Jend themselves to any mere temporary party purposes. And those great measures were carried notwithstanding the opposition which measures of that kind always meet with from in terested parties. Great revolutions, commercial and political, have taken place since that period, and I am satisfied that another of those important crises has again arrived. lam satisfied that we have no choice left, ex cept to adopt those large alterations which have been proposed, or to suffer the greatest, the most incalculable, and, perhaps, the most irremediable mischief?. — (Cheers.) I should be going into too wide a field if I were now to go into particular instances, but I am sure that lion. Gentlemen will admit that some large and exte ns i ve c h ange i s d es i ra bl e, and is most important to maintain the commerce of our country. Our manufactures are leaving our shores. They are in a state of transitio n —th e y meet w i t h foreign rivals with whom they are every year less and less able to compete. The necessity for th ese , i m p or t an t alterations is so strongly felt by th e Government that if the House agrees to this motion it will be my duty to call the atten tion of the House to many of these important measures. I beg the House to observe that it is not possible to pro pose any measure of this kind without encountering some protecting interest.—(Hear, hear.) I have always held the opinion that it is our duty to make such changes, with due consideration to existing interests, but, at the same time, it is quite impossible to m a k e them thoroughly without encountering opposition. Per sons point to other great monopolists, other great pro tecting interests, and they ask, " Why are we to be made the scapegoats ?" I have often heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth, in discuss ing the Corn-laws, use that kind o f argument. I say, therefore, that it is impossible to make an y great change without meeting with opposition, and that we must, in all such cases, look to what is required by the interests of the country.--(Hear, hear.) I never re member a period when there existed i n th e mercantile and manufacturing community of this coun t ry so general an impression on this subject — an impression whi c h i s not merely brought forward for party purposes, or by party men.—(Hear, hear.) H on. G entlemen opposite fl a tter themselves with the delusion that the measures brought forward by the Government were influenced by political necessity, or by the state of parties. Why, the Government have not had the m eans o f collecting the i Whigs and the Radicals n the la rge mercantile towns. The whole nature of the agitation, if it may be so called, is of a totally different character ; it has not been con ducted in the manner in which party interests are ob tained and promoted ; it has been f ar more deep and heartfelt. Qn former occasions, I have always observed that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Tam worth, always referred to the amount of our exports. He, too, always said, "It cannot be true that your ma nufactures are so much distressed ; it cannot be true that your commerce is in such an embarrassed condition, while your exports continue to increase." I say, with great regret, that that argument will fail the Right Ho. nourable Gentleman on the present occasion. Our exports, during the last year, have very con siderably diminished, and if you do not re lieve the pressure which weighs upon the springs of the country there will be a yet greater dimi nution. Comparing the whole of our exports, in 1840 and 1841, there has been a falling off of about a million and a half. Earthenware has fallen from 721,000/. to 574,000/. ; hardware and cutlery from 1,800,000/. to 1,300,0001. There is one manufacture to which I cannot help adverting for a moment, which I find considerably increased—it is the manufacture of refined sugar.— (Hear, hear.) Now I can understand, Gentlemen, drawing a distinction between cotton and coffee, and other articles of that kind, and sugar ; but how you are to draw a distinction between sugar consumed in this country, and sugar which you prepare for the consump tion of other countries, I confess is to me quite unintel ligible.—(Hear, hear.) Now, the refining of sugar ap pears to have been one of the most flourishing branches of our trade. It increased from 299,000/. in 1840, to 444,000/. in 1841. This loads me to a point which I think extremely deserving the attention of the House in considering this question. It has been said already, and I believe with perfect truth, that by putting sugars upon an equal footing, you make England an entrepot for all the countries in the world. That was the opimon expressed by Mr. Huskisson in 1829, an opinion to which he attached the greatest importance. If you keep your prices steady and fixed instead of oscillat ing, you will make Eno-land the great market for all the sugars in the world. There is one point to which, before I sit down, I am anxious for a moment to allude. I have stated my belief that there never was a period in which the merchants, and manufacturers of this country, felt greater apprehensions, or expressed those apprehen sions more distinctly to the House. But there was one remarkable petition addressed by the merchants of London upon this subject to the House. I heard with some asto nishment the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth, the other night, in presenting a counter peti tion against the plan of her Majesty's Government and especially against the proposed alteration in the sugar and timber duties, state that many of the most considerable merchants who had signed the petition which I presented in favour of free trade had also signed the petition which he presented. Now, Sir, I really feel it my duty to call the attention of the House to what that petition was. [The Hon. Member then read the petition first presented, which was a petition generally in favour of free trade, and concluded by pray ing that the House would be pleased to make such alterations in the differential duties as would be fair to the consumer and promote the general welfare of the country.] With what consistency can those who have thus stated their opinion, oppose the measures of the Government ?—(Hear, hear.) We petition in favour of free trade generally, we petition for a reduction of the import duties, but we except sugar.—(Hear.) I must say that it does appear to me so extravagant a proposi tion that the House cannot for a moment entertain it. There is only one way of accounting for it, that mer chants wish for free trade except in colonial produce— that agriculturists are willing to have free trade except in the article of corn.—(Hear, hear.) That is a very com mon sentiment in all classes of the community.—(Heir.) This is a subject with which you must deal as a whole— it is not one which you can attempt to deal with in a piecemeal manner. Sir, upon these grounds I hope the House will be guided by the recommendations of the most important petitions to which I have alluded. One word more, and I have done. Sir, I believe that the country is in that situation that delay will be dan gerous.---(Cheers.) It is impossible to examine more closely into the subject—it embraces such a variety of subjects that I will not now attempt to enter into them, but I think I am entitled to assert that the prevalent sense of the whole manufacturing population of the country is that this must be done, and speedily if the country is to prosper. There is still one- light in which we must look at this question, viz., as a question of finance.—(Cheers.) The necessity of meeting the expen diture of the country is now pressing, and to meet it with a prudent alteration of the commercial system is, in my opinion, absolutely necessary. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth said, a short time ago, that nothing could be more unworthy of a Government, or more fatal to the country, than in time of p eace t o a dd t o th e permanent debt o f the country. In that I perfectly agree ; but if you will not take that course, then will you have recourse to direct taxation. Sir, I cannot but think that that would be a most serious course to take. Consider ing as I have done that money is wanted, and believing it can be raised, not by adding to the burdens of the people but by relieving them from taxation, I trust that the Hous, will agree to the proposition now ma d e . I h ave t h at confidence in th e integrity and spirit of the people of England that I am sure they would never refuse to subt mit to any taxation if it was shown to be necessary to maintain the institutions or the character of the conntry; but of this I am certain that if it can be shown that the money can be raised by other means they will not sub mit cheerfully to it, and the means we propose will not only not press upou them but relieve them from taxa tion. Sir, this question is not now confined to political economists—there is now a spirit of inquiry abroad that will not be satisfied. Come to what decision the House may upon this subject, depend upon it the people will not let the matter rest. For myself, I shall only say that I feel that it is the duty of the Government, placed as they are with the necessity of providing additional finances, and finding those views entertained by the great commercial classes of the country, they at once adopted them. Completely satisfied that these opinions are founded in ustice and reason, I think the Go vern me n t wou ld have been want ing in their duty to the Houle and the country, had they not brought them forward.—(Cheers.) I see the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) smiling. He is one of the staunchest friends of protection generally, and of protection to the agricultural interest in particular, but I will venture to predict that if he s h ou ld shortly become a Minister, he will have to make his choice either to concede measures founded upon the principle of these measures, or see a degree of dissatisfaction prevail throughout the country that will be dangerous. Ido feel so deeply the importance of the question, that I could not help, connected as I am with the commerce of the country, setting forth in the strongest language I could my hope that the House will come to a right deci sion upon this subject. Mr. GLADSTONE said he did not stand up to dis cuss the principle of trade.—(Cheers.) The question before the House was, Were we to go into Committee to consider an alteration in the sugar duties ? and an amendment had been proposed that the sugar duties were not a fit subject for alteration. That amendment was not founded upon the grounds of trade, but upon higher considerations. In the principles laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman he found little that was liable to objection.—(Cheers.) He agreed in nearly all that fell from him.—(Cheers.) The Honourable Gentlemen opposite might find it answer their purpose to ascribe to the Gentlemen behind him that they were the upholders of mono poly and restriction, but it was not founded upon truth.—(Cheers.) The proposition before the House called upon them to abandon a great principle--(Cries of " Oh, oh")—and all for what—for ls. 6d. per cwt., ever according to the calculations of the ?Noble Lord. Was there no period at which sugar was enjoyed as a luxu r y by British p eo pl e a t a cheaper rate than that which Ministers proposed to give ? If they looked back to the period of slavery, they would find that sugar was had cheap enough. The average price of sugar during the seven years, from 1828 to 1834, was only 275. 11d. per cwt., but the advantages derivable from slavery were not considered sufficient to atone for the evils that existed under it. The nation rose as a man to abolish slavery. Was it not known by every man of common sense that the first effect of the emancipation of the slaves must necessarily be to reduce the production, and thereby enhance the price of sugar ? Yet the people persevered in their noble effort. The abolition of slavery was a great experiment, and did the Noble Lord suppose that the people of this country would consent to the abandonment of that experiment — that they would consent to forego the high cha rac t er they had earned in the eyes of th world, and adopt the proposition of the Noble Lord ? It was said that coffee and cotton should also be excluded as being the produce of slave labour. Those articles were generally prepared for use by female hands, and could be produced without slave labour but the cultivation of sugar mainly depended on slave labour. It was that which tempted men to go to Africa to steal their fellow-men.—(Cheers.) He contended that there was in the measure of the Government an abandonment of a great principle, which had been hitherto observed at so mighty a cost to this country. But he should have complained more warmly still of that plan as it was first proposed. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the character of being a plain man, and a man of busi ness ; and yet on the Friday he proposed a plan for an alteration of the duty in which they had nothing of the scale which he afterwards introduced.---(Hear, hear.) The effect of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, as he had first introduced it, would not only have the effect of admitting slave-grown sugar, but that the en couragement given to the introduction of foreign sugar would have been of a nature to exclude every other. And here was a difference of 50 per cent. in the value of foreign sugar —and it unfortunately happened that the superior sugar was that grown in the slave countries. Cuba and the Brazils were the great sources of • that last article, and Siam, Cochin China, - and Manilla were the only countries where sugar could be said to be the produce of free labour.—(Hear, hear.) But the sugar of Cuba was 50 per cent. more valuable than that of Manilla. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had intended to introduce the two articles upon equal terms into the British market, it re quired no lengthened demonstration to conclude that he ought to lay upo n th a t more va l ua bl e art i c l e, a d u ty of fifty per cent. high er th en th a t l a id upon t h e other, t h at was to say, if he laid a d u ty o f 36 5. per cw t. o n Manilla sugar, he ought to lay a d u ty o f 54 5 . o n the s e uti e fir r, of Cuba. The Right H onoura bl e G en tl em en, h o wever, proposed on th e con t rary to l ay a d u ty of 365. pe r e cwt. sugar on Manilla sugar, an d th e same d u ty upon the the o e of Cuba. hea p e rThat article . would The leadhe Right t o the Ho n . a totalenGentleman, exclusion of how ever, had altered his pl a n in a manner which he (Mr. e t ll o dl em se an un o te ug nan ht e i e n . Gladstone) thought House h t e he night n o e u n g . ought —(Hear, hear.) T th he e ei fi e r a s i n t t n fset r d c i e s e t u o s s h i a e v e e , a su n b d m n it o t t ed th t e hat proposal otherw which hich he had adopted on the very morning of the day on which the discussion was to take place. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had not unfortunately altered his plan enough. Let the House mark the effect of the 12s. duty as pro posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Under that duty sugars differing considerably in quality v. ould be intro duced, and unfortunately nearly the whole of them would be the produce of the Brazils, while the free labour sugar EVENING EDITION. of Manilla and the East had scarcely anything to hope for in the plan as it at present stood. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, who was not then in hip place, h a d recorded in favour of the negroes a mo4t gratifying testimony of his concern for their welfare. The Iron. and Learned Gentleman had given notice that he into nded to propose in Committee that the introduc sution ar wil of' foreign sugar should b e li m i ted to free grown gy. He (Mr. Gladstone) believed that some of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's friends would have the kindness to remind him that there was one slight ob jection to the proposal he had made, which was, that it was contrary to the express and literal terms of the Treaty of Brazil, which rendered it totally impossible, without a direct violation of the national faith, to draw any distinction between the sugar of any other country and that of the Brazils. If it were not so he (Mr. Gladstone) should, for one, be glad to show an example of a willingness to recognise the principle which had been justly and fairly laid down, that competition had a beneficial effect in the production of commodities, and that monopoly is the parent, not only of grievance to the consumer, but likewise of sloth and inefficiency in the labourer.--(Hear.) He should still, however, be ready to make every possible discrimina tion between slave sugar and free sugar. He thought that would be important in a moral point of view, and it would explain to the world that they did not lay a prohi bition on sugar because it was foreign but because it was slave grown. The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had held out a hope of entering into negotiations w i t h t h e Government of the Brazils for the suppression of the slave trade. But the Noble Lord had taken the very worst course for attaining that end ; for the Noble Lord proposed to give away all the benefits he could offer, without previously insisting on any corresponding concession. The Right Hon. Gentleman who last sat down said that a similar measure to the present had been proposed, in 1829, by Mr. Grant. But the question then was one of slave sugar against slave sugar. The present was a question between free labour and the slave trade.— (Cheers.) The reduction proposed in 1829 would have been a dead letter. The British producers were, at that time, able to sell sugar at ss. p er cwt. below the foreign producers, and what in the world would it have mat tered to them, if the protecting duty, which they did not need, had been lowered by a few shillings ?—(Cheers.) The slave trade was annually slaying its tens of thousands, and he asked the House to pause before it gave to the miseries of that trade still greater intensity.—(Cheers.) After all that this country had done —all the money that had been paid, he rejoiced to say--(Laughter)--for the suppression of the slave - trade—he called on the House not to agree to the proposition of the Ministry, which would make this country an object of laughter and scorn. It was of no avail to use physical force to put down the slave trade whilst we were stimulating that lust of gain which we knew t o b e t h e source of the evil..—(Hear, hear.) It was well said by Mr. Turnbull, in his excellent work upon Cuba, that 200 per cent. was stronger than physical force.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) had adopted the arguments alleged by General Taunton, in 1806, in f avour o f t h e slave trade.—(" No, n o ," from Lord J. Russell.) If not, then, the General was guilty of plagiarism by anticipation, for he used the very argument in favour of the slave trade, which the Noble Lord now used in favour of the proposed encouragement of it.—(" No, no," and cheers) General Taunton said, that if we gave UT) the slave trade advantages to America, who could carry it on more cheaply.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord's argument ourselves, we should not iut an end to it, but give all the was, that if we did not take the slave produce of Brazil, it would go to other countries.--(Laughter, and " No.") But there was a name in the present Cabinet more inti mately connected with the abolition of the slave trade. He had understood that there was a man, the powerful but unseen ally of Mr. Wilberforce, a man who looked not to the present for his reward, whose name was Zachary Macaulay, and whose son was a Member of the present Cabinet, and he could not conceive a contrast more painful, if it were indeed true, as they had argued that the effect of this measure, if carried, must be to stimulate the production of sugar in Cuba and Brazil, and that the effect must be to give an additional stimulus to the slave trade. He could not account for such proceedings but on the ground of a laxity of principle—(Hear, hear)--for he thought many of those who voted for this measure would do so with doubt ing minds and quailing hearts.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord knew this measure had created dissension among his friends, that the commercial classes distrusted his legislation, and we (said the Hon. Member) for our parts are well assured that the British House of Commons on this occasion, in the eyes of the country and of Europe, will vindicate its ancient fame.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. GISBORNE then moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'Clock. OYAL YACHT SQUADRON, A general meeting of the noblemen and gentlemen, members of the Royal Yacht Squadron, was held, on Sa turday, at the Thatched House, St. James's -street. The Right Hon. the Earl of Yarborough, Commodore (Kestrel yawl, Cowes), in the chair. There were present the Earl of Belfast, Vice-Commo dore, the Earl of Ilchester (Petrel cutter, Southton), the Farl of Wilton (Xarifa schooner, Cowes), Viscount Powerscourt (Antelope cutter, Portsmouth), Sir Hyde Parker, Bart. (Louisa schooner, Cowes), Sir Archibald J. Murray, Bart., Sir Bellingham R. Graham, Bart., Sir Simon Clarke (Kate schooner, Southampton), Spencer De Horsey, Esq., M.P., Thoffias P. Williams, Esq., M.P. (Hussar schooner and Gazelle cutter, Beau maris), Joseph Reynolds, Esq., Thomas Halifax, Esq. (Sparrow Hawk cutter, Cowes), J. L. Symonds, Esq. (Emerald cutter, Cowes), James Lyon, Esq., John Moore, Esq. (Reindeer cutter, Cowes), William Beach, Esq. (Aurora cutter, Cowes), Almon Hill, Esq, (AHel schooner, Cowes), William Lyon, Esq. (Merlin schooner and Circassian schooner, Portsmouth), John Bayley, Esq. (Nymph cutter, Dover), George Bentinck, Esq. (Dream cutter, Portsmouth), Edward Heneage, Esq., M.P., Thomas P. Halsey, Esq., John Bendmore, Esq. (Harriet schooner, Cowes), John Petre, Esq. (Midge - cutter, Cowes), F. P. Delme Radcliffe, Esq. (Fanny cutter, Cowes), an& Captain A. L. Corry, 11.1 st. (Phcebe cutter, Cowes). The Right Hon. Chairman having addressed the meeting explanatory of the nature of the business to be transacted. Mr. JOIIN BATES, R N., the secretary, read to the meeting a financial statement, from which it appeared that the funds of the squadron were in a very flourishing condition His Royal Highness the Prince of Syracuse (brother of his Majesty the King of Naples) was elected an ho norary member of the squadron, without ballot. The following gentlemen were then elected by ballot, members of the Royal Yacht Squadron. Robert William Gaussen, Esq. (Gossamer cutter, 35 tons:)—Proposer, the Right Hon. the Rarl of Yarbo rough ; seconder, F. P. Delme Radcliffe, Esq. William T'eareth, Esq. (Ariadne cutter, 85 tons.) — Proposer, Sir J. W. Copley, Bart. ; seconder, Captain W. A. Herringham, R.N. Thomas Legh, Esq. (Breeze cutter, 54 tons.)—Pro poser, the Earl of Belmore ; seconder, the Right Hon. the Earl of Yarborough. The following gentlemen were elected by ballot ho norary members : Captain Francis P. Blackwood, R.N.—Proposer, John Moore, Esq. • seconder, Spencer De Horsey, Esq., M.P. Captain Lewis T. Jones, R.N.—Proposer, Captain N. A. Herringham, R.N. ; seconder, Captain A. L. Corry, R.N. Commander William Knighton Stephens, RN.—Pro poser, Captain A. L. Corry, E.N. ; seconder, A. W. Cor bet, Esq. Captain James Wilkinson, R.N.—Proposer, the Right Hon. the Earl of Yarborough ; seconder, Captain A. L. Corry, R.N. COMmander William Alexander Willis, R.N.—Pro poser, the Right Hon. the Earl of Yarborough ; seconder, the Hon. W. H. Hare. The regatta will take place at Cowes in August. The annual club cup, hitherto given by the Royal Yacht Squadron, will not be sailed for this year. The 17th is the day appointed for the contest between yachts of the first class (under 40 tons) for the cup given by her Ma jesty the Queen. On Wednesday, the 18th, t h e a nnual ball, given by mem b ers o f t h e R o y a l Y ac ht Squadron, will take place, and on Thursday, the 19th, the squadron will celebrate their anniversary festival at Cowes. An engraving, in mezzotint°, by Mr. George Raphael Ward, after a picture by Mr. H. P. Briggs, R.A., of the Right Hon. the Earl of Yarborough, was exhibited to the meeting, and met with universal approval, both as a likeness of the Noble Earl as well as a work of art. The customary compliments having been voted to the Right Hon. Chairman, The Earl of Yarborough, in a suitable speech, returned thanks, and the meeting separated. DEVIZES, MAY 7,1841 e (FRoM A CORRESPONDENT.) and will In this neighbourhood "notices to quit," on purp ose to raise the rent, have been served very freely by nearly all the great landlords, on those tenants who h ave no lease, although in many cases the rent was raised only per cent, last year, and in not a few cases rent had been twice before within the last four years. raised Most of the farmers are very cool about the Corn_i sw , and are beginning to open their eyes, very ready to rick the poor man's belly, not b e landlord immediately picks it out of their p ee k Many of the tenants hereabout, before because the ets aga i n. -law was worth notice, the mg allow passed, were allowed ten to twenty the Poor-law when the owners found the ! s ,, vi ng to the off, but lowed the farmer by t h e no longer, and have since given them the per centage Poor beside. one or two lifts TROLLOPE'S " SUMMER IN WESTERN FRANCE. "— Agreeable as were the author's former vo lumes, "A Summer in Brittany," they are greatly ex celled in the present work. While passing over such attractive ground as the scene of the English conquests in France, the field of the heroic adventures of Joan of Arc, the theatre of the desperate struggles of the Hu guenots at La Rochelle, and of the Royalists of La Ven dee—the land of cognac and claret—and the soil where flourished a whole host of historical characters, our author seems to h ave b een st i mulated to exercise all his talents as a tourist, and, as the reader will acknowledge ; with a very happy result. At one time we find him gos sipping about the antiquities of the old provincial towns ; at another making clear an obscure page of history here he lingers with Richard Cceur de Lion at Chalus— there he stays with Margaret of Anjou at Dampiere. After a while we find him describing mines, manufac tories, prisons, Druidical remains, cathedrals, and battle fields, with the spirit ofone born in their neighbourhood ; and these are delightfully relieved by a fund of amuse ment in the anecdotes, adventures, legends, and remarks that accompany d i m. Indeed, i n f ormation is so blended with entertainment throughout these pages, that as a book of travels the " Summer in Western France" proves one of the most agreeable works ever written. I