The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-20 00:00:00

do any thing of this kind, that from the first moment at whicti I put the question up to the present time, I believe they have, under all circumstances, acted with a reasonable intention to advance measures that shall be for the good of the country. In putting these questionS, therefore, I only wish to show the people that a vigilant attention is paid to all those transactions, whether past or present, that affect the honour and dignity of the country; .and I believe that the questions I shall put, so far as'they affect this govern !Rent, will confirm the hopes I entertain, And remove the injurious impressions that would elsewhere lave been created. When I first addressed the Right Hon. Seem. Lily . on this subject he gave an undecided ans Wet, and I did not press my question; but since that time circumstances have materially ettatged—events have happened not now resting en. tnuiuthenticated rumou rs , nor even on reasonable anticipation ; but upon of f icial statements of a nature to command our most - *lion. attention. The. last time I addressed Welt hon. Gentlama% the Ottoman Porte had • jttst published and circulated a most extraordintry Manifesto, which, while it br,,:athed a most hostile Tint, avowed a most peaceful po):, c y. At that time, 'ate answer to' that Manifesto Was ',understood to have Nen notified, but the ateatt vas not then published ; and the Right MM. S&retary did not go so far as to state' that no change ttattthen taken place in the diplomatic relations triisting between England and Russia, nor did he admit at time that any change ha oc curred iu the relations between Russia and the Ottoman Porte; but since that time, there can be no doubt that a change has occurred. Not only hag Russia published a Manifesto aga i ns t Tu r k e y, but she has issued a declara tion of war; and not only has she issued a declaratiou of war, but the i 4 Rubicon' is now passed ) :m.‘l the Russian troops have erossed the Pruth, in order to proceed to a po 3itinn on the Danube, by taking possession of which they wilt be able to cover Constantinople on that side. It neay be said that the operation against Constantinople is attended with little danger or peril ; hut if that observation should be made, I must take upon myself to deny it, for I will venture to say that there never was one of inure danger. I therefore do not apprehend that instantaneous chafe in the state of Europe which many anticirate from this war. That transaction, however, veal alone justify use in asking what is now the nature of our position with regard to Russia, as it hears on the engagements into which we entered with that Power and Frame, timid. the Treaty of 6th of July. But it is not with Bussia alone that I wish to know the position in e4tieh We now stand, fir there is auotber Power more nearly allied with us, and whose course may, perhaps, MOTE nearly affect our t.erests. France, by a Message to the two Chan/tiers, has signified her inteniiou of raisin a sum of three milliona of money. She has called to her standard the men raised by conscription—the remnant eonscription of 1825 and ' iB2B, amountiag to nearly 100,000 men—and the con scription of 1827, which amounts to nearly eite,"ooo more ; and all this, as she says, not for the p=pose of aggrandize ment or war, but of placing herself on an equality with the other Powers of Europe, and of putting herself in a situation to maintain her honour and her interests, and to take advantage of those circumstances which may require her particular attention. These are the facts which have induced me to address the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and these facts do not rest merely on the Messages to the Chambers but on the speeeheo officially addressed to those Chambers, by•the • Minister for Foreign Affairs. These speeches, not like those uttered in this House width, in the warmth of debate, - may contain expressions of heat that the Ministers may wieli to retract, are, in fact, public documental for they are all framed in Council previouelya•-erery expression weighed with deliberation, and prepared for ;111bl/cation. The Minister for Finance, after stating the °changes which have taken place in Europe, says, " Certainly we cannot deny Russia the right of en forcing the execution of its Treaties with the Porte ; yet, without desiring to exaggerate the consequences of this se parate action, it must be felt that the respective situation of the Powers, with regard to Turkey, now requires from them some explanation on the mode of carrying into exe cution the Treaty which is common to them." And the speech gees on to state e --" Allethat we are' permitted to say is, that his Majesty's Allies declare that they intend, like him, to keep their engagements, and to obtain the object* indicated by the Treaty of the.6th 'of July." If the speech stopped at that point there would not be much to say upon it; but it goes owas if to express some doubts of the policy of the two Governments, .and says " France fee its part (and till the common intervention can be min , biped with the separate action of one of the Contracting Powers), cannot behold with indifference the . protracted misfortunes of the Greeks, to whom this intervention of the three great Powers has given a right' to entertain' het - tenfrospects. The solicitude of the King, in concert with the S wishes so often and so strongly expressed in the two Chambers, will take care that measures shall be adopted to relieve, at least, so much misery." Now, concurring as I do with the general sentiments of the French Ministers thus expressed on the behalf of the Greeks, I cannot but think that those sentiments are expressed in language which, if it does not inculpate tie, looks like a complaint on the part of _our Allies. It seems as if Russia was thought to have proceeded too far, and as if England ex hibit:4 a disposition to shrink from her engagements, in stead of uniting with her confederates in . this line of foreign policy in an instant and active opera tion to put a stop to those miseries which have long been indicted on the Greeks; and - which France now declares she will no , longer permit. • Were that really the case,. I should. consider its one- of the greatest calamities that could befall us eebecanse I am certain there can be no paicy more injurions to our interests than that which will give to France even a preteit for disturbing the united in tervention of the Allies : for she will then theow herself into the arms of Russia—a measure than which none can be more decidedly calculated to nVerturn the balance of power, and to create a totally 'new disposition of the States of Europe, as regulated he , the Treaty of Vienna. If this should take place, in spite of our opposition; though' the consequences may he equally disastrous, - we shall feel as a State that which eve should have felt as individuaTs-- . . that the maintenance of our honour is the greatest mitiga tion of our misfortunes. I beg I may not be misunderstood so far as to have it supposed that I am urging this count' y into a toad crusade with France; chivalrous France, on this °evasion, in behalf of the Greeks. I declare I have no each intention. I believe the policy I recommend is, tlntt which is in fact now pursuing by his Majesty's'Go•. verutnent, and which will effect its object without name blow being struck. I believe 'that nothing more is neces sary to obtain all that we require from Turkey, than that she should know that there is a strict 'union between France and England ; or, if we do more, I believe itwill he sufficient to employ a small force, and to give the Go verninent of Greece a few thousand men, or the means of raisne e and paying theme—ferty or fifty thousand pounds, tot inetenee—and the Turks will be driven out of the Morea, or, what' is still better, the Greek Govern ment will be able to put down the anarchists, who Piave hitherto been the . greatest enemies of Greek li berty. But I say, a f ter all, that cost what it may, we are bound in honour, and I believe we shall find it to be the interest of England, to rescue that coun try front Turkish dominion ; for I hold Greece to be that great dyke,• on the rapid and solid construction of which depends the Safety of Europe. But independently of the consequences, I should regret lined deeply that at any moment we should do any thing to forfeit the good will, esteem, aud admiration of France, with whom our connexions are daily becoming closer; an d who has es_ changed military glory for tied virtues ; and w h o , if s h e el—se...greatest continues in her nations in the' present course, must be truly as she will be one of the freest _ _ My second inquiry, therefore natur it a it l e ly nd ree s t o o lv l es na t i szl i f iri l l n , t e o r this question—whether England • engagements under the Treaty of the 6thofcJirculuyn n ,Isatnaticte: teeeetierate with France and Russia as far as . • wil! permit? There is one more point on which I must • put a (petition—which I do with p ain and distrust, as.l helieve there cannot be a difference of op inion on the s i i: s h i • Test. F rom w h a t I h av e heard I Must ask, but .I hope net Tensible, that any of . those brave men who foug i ht t so he pdlautly at Na var in sficsola hive - neglected secure to eduaut agea th ey h a d ga i ne d, or t o convert their succes to the greate s t practicable bee. Ido not say that the whole coast of the Illorea could have been completely blockaded, but I am satisfied that, if that blockade hail been Carried into effect, the Turkish' and the Egyptian forces would have been obliged to evacuate that country. Instead of this, the ports of the 111orea have been left • po i only for the littroiliiction of supplies for the Turkish troops, but for. the removal of those useless mouths who their provisions, and front whoin they have now consutned If they had not been able to effect their heal relieved. object, they would have had a difficulty of maintaining themselves in the cou ntry ; but in c onsequence o f t h e i r being able to do this, they,have removed many thousand Greeks into Egypt, where they have been consigned to the most terrible and disgusting treatment: _ I will not pretend sufferings to which all to state, although I have information fmm several persons, wome n n ow an o d & childre n , what a7btalpiepvpapretiresiodn7 including those n as I . have before said. lace b e e n subjected. I-shall, therefore, ly .wrehieunivel answers to three inquiries ; trusting, that the Right Hon. Gentleman will believe me say, I only put them in the spirit of one whoseeksforin.. formation. The first question is, whet her this British G,, vern ment, notwithstanding all the transactions whiel , have taken place, still think, itself bound to adhere to tl. '' Treaty of the 6th of July ? The second is, 'whether w combine with rrance in the operations she deems necessary for the attainment of the objects of that Treaty, to which Russia may be still considered a party ? kid ) 3dly, whe they any communications have been received from the Naval Commander in the Mediterranean, to account for and jus tify (as I have no douht he will be able to do) his not en forcing the blockade of the fortifiedliorts of the Morn? Mr. Secretary PEEL.—If, Sir, I abstain from making any communication to the House, with reference to the observations of the Um. Gentleman opposite, and with reference tem the particular questions with which he con cluded, I-trust that no inference will be drawn from my silence, except that I -think it would be more than injudi cious to afford any information upon such topics tinder cir cumstances that new exist: With respect to the particu lar questions theinsoVes, if I do not reply to them, I trust that the House will not. I trust that no Hon. Member Will attribute my silence to aught else than an indisposi tion on my part to explain, and, if neettsary, to vindicate the policy pursued by hiss Majesty's Government upon this important risatter ; but I trust that the House will be ready to concur with me in considering that great pru dence is.necessary—and that I find it My ditty to the so much reserve as mayaltnost atno:int to absolute silence.— Under any circurAstslnces, great caution ought to be ob served in approaching such a subject before the arrival of the period when detailed explanations may be safely given. The Hon. Gentleman himself has shown me how necessary caution must be, by referring to tohib ÜbSetVations made by me in auswo I'd Some questions put by him on a former teetsion, for he has shown me how liable a person may be to lead another astray by alluding to au answer without explaining, the cpiestion to which it was a reply. The Hon. Gent. salted me certain questions relative to the poSitfen of affairs between Russia and the Porte, and in reply I stated, that no official information had been re ceived, upon which I had a right to presume, that the fele tions between Russia and Turkey bad nittlt;egoile any change. I referred of coarse tn a declaration of war—but, - I ad mitted-that the probability of peace had become somewhat was. Now, Sir, with respect to the particular questions which the Hon. Gentleman has just put, all the answer I can give consistent with my duty, and hi consideration of the peculiar cireinistances that exist, I will now give. froin time first moment of this signature of the Treaty of the 6th July, up to the present moment that I address the House, it has been the part of the advisers of the Crown to desire the punctual and scrupulous fulfilment of the en gagement into Which we entered ; and, independently of the Consideration of an actual treaty, I say, that it cannot he the opinion of his Majesty's Government, considering the great length of the struggle between TUrkey and Greece, that they ought to take no step to put an end to that ap parently interminable contest, if our mediation is declined by either of the contending parties, and to lay down some specific relations in which Turkey and Greece shall here after stand, with respect to one another. England was asked by her Allies to consent to a treaty, and to propose some Means of carrying that treaty into effect—but, it is now notorious that events have since occurred, which at the time of the signing of that treaty could not have been foreseen— events which have materially changed the relation in which one of the parties to that treaty stood icith respect to Tom key, at the period when that treaty waseigned. It is now notorious to the world, that War has beeii declared by Russia against Turkey..-soti grounds, applying only to the situation in which Rttsela stands, and not common to the two other parties to the treaty. That declaration of war has not changed the position of the three parties with respect to Greece. It is still the desire of the three parties to terminate the contess between Turkey and Greece, and to prevent future dissensions between them. That declaration of war has not relieved either of the three Powers from the engagements or the stipulations into which they entered at the time it was determined to endeavour, by joint operations, to compose the troubles in the East of Europe. But that declaration of war, by altering the situation of one of those parties with respect to Turkey, into a belligerent, involves a material consideration with respect to the accomplishment of the means of producing that repose in the way contemplated by the Treaty. From a sense of public duty I abstain from now entering into ex planation on this point. When the time has arrived in which I shall be in a condition to explain, I shall be ena bled to show that his Majesty's Government has acted upon two great principles—a desire to maintain the good faith of the country by the fulfilment of every engagement entered into by the country, this is the first principle.— The second is, to narrow, as far as can be consistently nar rntved, the precedent for foreign interference in the affairs of another country, and to limit any force employed to the precise object for which it is intended. With respect to the third question put by the Hon. Gentleman, viz., that which relates to the blockade of the Morea—l have only to aay that instructions were given as to the intention of his Majesty's Government to provide for and require a blockade of the ports of the ?lorea at the time to which the lion. Gentleman refers. With respect to the point on which he requires information, I can only observe that explanations have been required and received, but, as to their precise hatUre, I must be forgiven for being silent at the present moment. If, in these few observations, I appear to be more than cautious, I can only observe that I consider my public duty requires it of me. Isbell manifest no dis position to shrink from explanation when the proper time arrives. 'Mr. Secretary PEEL gave notice 'of his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of the law for the recovery of small debts, and also a Bill to regtilate the means of raising money on Church briefs. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EL CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee 'of Supply. Sir G. CLERK rose to move the Nov; Estimates. On the' vote of 3,2131. for completing the Naval Col lege and the School of Naval Architecture, Mr. HUME rose to oppose the grant. The Honourable Gentleman preceeded to condemn the expensive system in troduced into these institutions. That the classics should be taught to the students he saw no objection, hut that the public should be put to the expense of teaching them draw ing, riding, fencing, French, and other ;natters, the knowledge of which they could obtain in private establishments, he theught no Hon. Member would attempt to say.—[Here the Hon. Member recapitulated the various officers emn ployed in the estalilishment, contending that in the present circumstances of the country the public ought not to be put to the expense of educating in that manner a few boys.] Sir J. YORKE was as willing as any other Honourable Member to curtail the expenses of the country; but he was equally as favourable to the maintenance of the offices and institutions necessary for time public service. He was animus for reform, in order that the Chancellor of the Ex eheqeer; if put to his trumps, should be able to fork out the blunt.—(A laugh.) It was desirable that the plan lately adopted by his Royal Highness the Lord High Ad miral, with respect to the children of seamen, should be ' persevered in, namely, the sending up or promotion of two hundred boys from the lower to the upper school at Greenwich ; but it was 'not necessary that similar benefits , should be extended to the on of officers educated at the College of Portsmouth. Ile should like to know whether, froni the class of naval architectural students, efficient per , irons had been furnished for the public service, either as masters, assistants, or otherwise? Sir G. COCKBU RN could assure the House that the case referred to by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had not been overlooked by his Royal Highness the Lord High Admiral ; and it was proposed to admit a limited number of the sons of naval and military officers, who were to pay 10/. a year each. —Formerly none of the students paid anything. In the College of Sandhurst, some young men were admitted on these terms—it wits deemed pm oper to adopt that system. With respect to the School of Naval Architecture, he should merely say, that it having been found that there u-as not employment for the number edo -1 cated, it had been determined not to admit any more until all those who had been there perfected should be provided for. , Mr. W. WHITMORE thought that every gentleman who sent his sun to chase establishments, ought to pay the expense._ e n the employed great: y ii mightPe igi k befL :efirl:R9uot-u•eapdEl Mr. MABERLY concurred. Sir GEORGE CLERK fjm defended . the vote. Sir J. YonKc and Mr. 11u3tE After a few word's the vote was agreed to. ,90 t '7 h / e. wages 12 i . 2 of .: The next item was, f or a sum to complete the sum necessary for defraying " offi3cierrs.,,usihmipi-kEeecpoenirsp,iaaiinided ofm of iwkteleetteini7:nrt and other yachts. The mind: the vessels in ordinary, for 1826. up the Royal yachts was five • now he thought these to one. Then there was a yacht for the Lord "of Ireland—a yacht for the Ambasdors. Why P , employed in the King's yachts, if they must be kept u these services? There were in a ddition, the Adrulralt % yacht, a yacht for the Navy Board, another for . the C o „,:: missioners at Chatham, another for those at Plymouth, an other for the Governor of the Isle of Wight. He was at a loss to know, why at such an enormous .expense these on , ves. sels should be maintained. There was' ni a yacht—the Calesta, built for the Governor of Malta, at an expense of 11,0001. • g of this entin- Sir GEO. CLERK thought that the K in !ry ou g ht not to be confined to a single yacht.—(Heao hear.) — That was, however , a q uestion for the Vous& of i 'Commons, and not for him to decide...—(Cheert.)...-The tommana of the Royal yacht was always conferred upon some or other of the oldest Captains in the navy. These officers, with the boatswains, gUnners, and carpenters, were the only persons on boatel those vessels; respectively, who *ere constantly kept upon their establiehitiefit-;-4 1 se crews *ere employed, when not required on board the Royal Yaehts, in the general service—in proof of which be in stanced the crew of one of them, at present employed on the coast of Africa. In like manner the crew of the yacht for the Lord Lieutenarit'of Ireland were employed in the pre vention of smuggling. The Committee would, therefore, see that there was no foundation for the objections of the Hons Member for Aberdeen. Sir J. YORKE would not go the length his Hon. and Gallant Friend did in defence of the yacht establishment. He objected to the expensive mantle' in which they were Ornamented. the King ought of course to have a yacht to himself, but a great portion of his Majesty's suite might be accommodated on board the vessels of war by which the King in his naval excursions was attended , He saw no reason, lthWever, why those persons should always sail under 'the gilded and protecting wings of cherubim and seraphim. —(A laugh.) Blr. STURGES BOURNE defended the vote. Mr. HUME was still of opinion that the royal yachts ought.to be reduced in number ; since the 23d May, Nee, only four royal yachts had been employed. Sir tOWARD.OWEN defended the vote, and having; had the honour of commanding one of the royal yachts (the Royal Sovereign we believe) could assure the Hon. Member that the office was no sinecure. -He had while on board the yachts served as much and encountered as hard weather as during the same time he could hare done in any other branch of service. The vote was then agreed to, as was a vote for 25,7191. 4s. to complete the sum necessary to defray the expenses of victuals for the officers, ship-keepers, and men on board the hulks and smaller vessels in ordinary. - • The next item was for a suns of 17,2251. for the hi re o f packets. Mr. HUME complained of. the additional expense in curred by the transfer of the Packet Service from the Post Office to the Navy Board. Sir G. CLERK contended that the trifling additional expense was amply compensated by the increased-expedi tion that had ensued from the change. After a few words from Sir J. YORKE, the vote was agreed to. Sir G. CLERK, in proposing the next vote, for a sum of 18,267/. for completing the expense of building ships at Bombay, took occasion to state that it was not the inten tion of Government to build any more ships at Bombay. Mr. STEWART contended that it was impolitic to dis continue the construction of ships at Bombay. Sir T. B. MARTIN was sure the Hon. Member would not attempt to maintain that ships could be built cheaper at Bombay than in England. Moreover, when our own artificers were languishing under a want of employment, he thought our vessels ought to be built at home. A desultory conversation ensued, in which Mr. Stewart, Sir J. Yorke, Mr. Curteis, and Sir Christopher Cole par ticipated. After which the vote was agreed to. Upon the motion that a suns of 438,5201. be granted to' his Majesty to complete the suns necessary for defrayingthe charges of Half-pay of Naval Officers for 1828, Mr. HUME complained of the great increase under that , head of expense. Before the last war the total amount of that charge had been only 176,5661., now it was upwards of 1,100,000/. The Hon. Member proceeded to mime= rate the number of Naval Officers on the hooks, contending that some limitation ought to be put to the appointment'of Naval Officers. Nothing but actual prohibition on the part of that House could terminate a practice which, in - the pre sent circumstances of the country, ought to be discontinued. Mr. MABERLY concurred in opinion with his Lion. Friend who had just sat down. Admiral EVANS could net see the great boasted grati tude of the country to those Officers of the Navy, who, while Hon. Menibers were lying on their beds, guarded the shores of England, knocked about by " The waves of the pathless main. Like Regulus stuck on a tub, • Amid the ocean rolling." If young men were not admitted, there Would be noise but old Officers in case of a war. Colonel DAVIES remarked, that the present system encouraged young men to enter into the Navy, and then, after a few years' service, left them to languish in obscurity dating their lives. This system bad cost the nation 2,900,0001. in the Army. Sir G. COCKBURN declared there were as many old Officers brought forward as properly could have been, but it was right to promote young officers also. We had but last year promoted a number of Midshipmen, who passed their examination for Lieutenants so far back as 1816; then there were Midshipmen frequently arriving from the pe rilous and wasting service on the coast orAfrica, whom it would be impossible to send back there without promoting them to that rank which they had so well earned. These were cases too difficult to be resisted. These details he was ready to explain without reserve to the Finance Committee, who would be the most proper judges of them. The number of Officers alluded to by the Hon. Member were: not added to the service, but removed from one rank to another. Mr. HUME said, - the fault lay, not in the Admiralty . that promoted those officers, but in the Govertitnent that admitted so many young men into the naval service, where they could not ultimately find permanent employment; he never objected to employ old officers who had gone through long services ; 1,000 midshipmen were promoted in 1816, and 1,100 since. Sir G. COCKBURN accounted for this, on the ground that it was necessary to have young men always in the navy. Mr. LINDSAY thought the Admiralty deserved the thanks of the House for taking young men into the navy. After Rodney's celebrated victory over De Grasse, there was only one midshipman in a fleet of 36 English ships, who was qualified to pass for lieutenant. The present sys tem would prevent the recurrence of such a deficiency. Mr. HUME explained that deficiency in midshipmen by the fact, that in the time of Rodney there were only 1,100 midshipmen in all our Navy, while now there were 4,000. The sum of 65,1071. Hs. 2d. was then voted to com plete the charges of Superannuation! and Pensions, for the Widows of Naval Officers. 750/. to complete the amount of bounty to Chaplains in the Navy. 5,000/. to complete the amount of allowances to Or phans and Widows of Naval Officers, on the Compassionate List. 52,0001. to complete the amount of charity for the re lief of Widows and Orphans of Warrant Officers. Mr. HUME . expressed a hope that these allowances would be placed under the controul of the Pension List, be fore they appeared in the House again. Sir J. YORKE trusted the Finance Committee would speedily report on these matters. Mr. MABERLY stated that the Finance Committee Was employed in going through the details. 5,0001. were then voted to complete the amount of pen sions to the widows of Marine Officers, and 130,000/. to complete the allowance for the Out-Pen sioners of Greenwich Hospital. 81,958/. 15s. to complete the amount of Superannua tion Allowances, in lieu of half-pay to Naval Officers for merly employed. HUME inquired why sums of 145/. each above the ordinary allowance, were continued to two particular Officers on the list. Sir B. MARTIN explained that they had completed their length of service before they retired. Mr. HUME—Why is 40 /. a year superesemation allowed to the dancing master of the Ro y al Naval Academy ? Sir G. CLERK—Because he h ad a particular selarY before he was superannuated-.-but such another allow-ance shall never appear on this list again. The list of dismissed , clerks of ships of war had been c alled fur b y the Lose High Admiral, with a view to bring them' back into em ployment according as they might be wanted. 94,6601. 10s. to complete the' amount of charges for the Improvements and Repairs of Dockyards. Mr. HUME complained of such an amount of exile the Sir J. YORKE asked the reason of removing all Victualling Offices to Portsmouth? Po t ts: Sir G. CLERK stated, that being all coll ected in Por mouth they now required but one superintendent; his a t alone was a diminution of expense. As to the rep s irs Plymouth Sound, the new Breakwater h a d stoed the weather all last winter withou t re q uirin g an y further repairs since. £129,500 for the purchase of Provisions and Stores for Troops in Foreign Garrisons. £139,400 for the Charges of the Transport Service. Mr. HUME hoped to see a speedy end to the system of hit big transports by monthly contract. Sir B. MARTIN stated that Government never hired transports on monthly contracts to carry troops er s tores but when they had back service to give the traniporte. Sir A. GRANT then left the Chair. The House re sumed. Sir A. Grant brought. up the Report, and ob tained leave to sit again on Wednesday. • EAST RETFORD' DISFRANCHISEMENT 1111. L. On the motion of Mr. TENNYSON, the Hou sew6t foe ehelr i eeh ri ol g d h e t n .. s o o f f into Committee of the whole House on the East Iletford Disfrancliiieinent Bill. Mr. J.' Wood in the Chair. Mr. N. CALVERT Wi s hed tOextend the elective fran chise voting ßiase -- w til h *i O and'to exclude All persons from eateesto the amount of 201.. a year. Hi Moved' -that ' the ' svbrds ".whe►efure the said borough should be excluded from hereafter returning such Burgesses" be left out of the pre amble, and that the following be put in their stead:— " In order, therefore, to prevent such bribery, and that this borough may be dttly represented iu Parliament for the future." Mr. Secretary PEEL suggested to the Hon. Member that his words did not perhaps e xactly apply to his pro. posal, which was, in fact, to alter the constitution of the borough. The words would have applied in the case of Aylesbury, but he thought they did not in the present. Ho mentioned this lest the Hen. Gentleman might hereafter find himself involved in difficulties-arising from this cir- cumstance. After a few words spoken across the table by the CHAN.. cEtt.ou of the ExotEtlttru and Mr. CALI/Eta the motion was read from the Chair. Mr. TENNYSON said, that notwithstanding the feel= ing manifested by the House on a former occasion, in fa vour of the proposal of his Hon. Friend, yet, after what had passed in another place, be had hoped that his Hon. Friend would have been induced to abandon that proposal ; but as he had thought proper to persevere in it, be (Mr. Tennyson) would beg to remind the House of the present state of the question. He wished the House to recollect that, by their vote of the 21st of March, they were not pledged to follow the course suggested in the proposal of his Hon. Friend. The Committee was only bound •to consider the relative claims of the hundred of Bassetlaw, and of a large manufacturing town ; and he trusted that, in a case in which the current of public feeling was not in favour of his Hon. Friend's proposal, and in which justice was palpably against it, the Committee would pause be fore they decided upon agreeing to that proposal. He contended, too, that 11 7 s Majesty's Ministers were no more pledged to his Honourable Friend's proposal than any other Members of the House of Commons. They were only pledged to the consideration of the ques tion in the light they had before placed it; but if the Penryn Disfranchisement Bill had passed the other House, the case would haVe been widely different. Minis ters would have been then bound to support the agreement and compromise entered into ; but now that there was not the slightest expectation that the course with respect to the two boroughs which had been approved of in that House would be adopted in the other, it was clear that his Ma jesty's Ministers in general, and the Right Hou. Gent. opposite in particular, were not pledged to the line of con duct they would be called on to pursue under the contrary hypothesis. But although he admitted that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite was not bound to follow that course which he (Mr. Tennyson) advocated, yet he considered that front the course the Right Hon. Gentleman pursued before, it would be most natural that he should. For, upon the principle laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, of the propriety of giving one of the two boroughs to the Agricultural, and the other to the Mantifacturing Interest, and considering that in the three last instances—in those Nof Shoreham; Cricklade, and Aylesbury—the elective franchise had been transferred to the Agricultural Interest, it was evident that the rights exercised by East Retford ought to be Conferred upon some manufacturing town, or bestowed upon the commercial interest in some shape or other. He wished the House also to consider that the hopes of Birmingham had been 'raised--that a Bill upon the subject of a transfer, and calculated to excite their hopes had been for some time before that town—and he thought it was incumbent upon his Hon. Friend to show that the claims of the hundred of Bassetlaw were superior to those of Birmingham, before the House ejected Birmingham from that position in which it had been placed by their Bill. His Hon. Friend bad referred particularly to the case of Aylesbury, but 'in the case of Aylesbury, as in those of Cricklade and Shoreham, the majority of the electors were untainted, -and in their behalf it was thought just to retain the borough, infusing, however, into the constitutional body, a principle of health from some external source. The most convenient was found to exist in the freeholders of a neighbouring county. But all this was done only on account of the untainted voters and it was never urged that the hundred or the county wan ted representation. Yet this was the foundation of his Hon. Friend's proposal, and the argument to which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had, without sufficient consideration, yielded upon a former'night. The Right Hon. Gentleman had perceived that nothing could be more inconsistent than the premises of his Hon. Friend. His Hon. Friend had stated that this borough was snore cor rupt than any other in the kingdom, and that he had no feeling for the electors or for East Retford ; and did he then mean to say that this representation which he advo cated was to he for the Hundred of Bassetlaw, and not for East Raiford ? His Hon. Friend, indeed, had felt the difficulty of .finding in the borough itself a nucleus round which a new elective body could be rallied. lie saw that it was impossible to draw a flue of 'distinction between the pure and the impure ; and he was compelled accordingly to draw a fanciful line between the mass of the electors and those rated at 201. a year. And what was the conses quence ? Simply that his Hon. Friend was actually obliged to select the most criminal ; for the richest electors —the Aldermen, &c.—were decidedly the most criminal. His Hon. Friend found it ii possible to distinguish the goats from the sheep, so he could only select the goats with the longest horns. But he would ask, had Isis Hon. Friend sufficiently considered the effect of this arrange ment ? He should think not, for he had an assessment, from which it appeared that this regulation would admit bat• two individuals—two Aldermen—to the right of vot, ing. The plan he advocated would be a case of simple transfer ; but , that proposed by his Hon: Friend was decidedly an innovation : and if disposed to embark in a new . system, Bassetlaw would not he the district he would select, unless be were at the same time disposed to emb ark •1 • •• • against all the principles of ihe Constitution. It was no torious that in giving the franchise to Bassetlaw, they would be giving the right to a Corporation of Peers. It was well known that there was a galaxy of coronets in that hun dred, and that it was called. the Misery ; and, as to its re quiring representation, nothing could be more absurd. Was it not represented by the Members for the county of Not tingham, against whom he had never heard any complaint ? And, besides, it was to be considered that. no petition had ever come from Bassetlaw requiring representation. The fact was, this hundred was represented in the other House beyond all precedent, by those Dukes, and Earls, and Viscounts, whose lands lay within its boundaiies ; and it was also represented by all those Hon. Members who, by some means which he would not attempt to describe, had found their way to the benches of that House, under the patronage of the Noble Lords. Bassetlaw, then, it ap peared, stood in no need of Representatives ; and it was evident that the independent freeholders had nothing to gain by the proposal of his Hon. Friend, which would . only have the effect of converting an open borough (for . open it was to all who had money) into a close nomination of certain Noble Lords. He had a curious illustration of this circumstance, in the shape of a handbill, addressed to the electors by Mr. G. Knight, a gentleman desirous of re presenting the borough in Parliament ; and he, well know ing where to apply, addressed himself to the Noblemen, Gentlemen, and others, of the Borough of East Retford. Mr. Secretary PEEL observed he had never seen an election hand-bill in which the words Noblemen and Gen tlemen were not to be found in the address. Mr. TENNYSON continued—He had a second hand bill to which he would refer; but he would first observe, that his Hon. Friend had stated, that the Duke of New castle would have no interest in the elections. Now, in dependent of the circumstance of the Duke's having large possessions in the hundred, it was said, that be returned one of the Members for the county of Nottingham ; and it might be inferred from this, how great his power would be in a little district like Bassetlaw. The handbill was in the No Poperyline, and came from a Mr. E. Browne, in behalf of the politics of his Grace of Newcastle. It stated, that as the tWO Gentlemen who had already sought the suffrages of the electors were in favour of the Catholic Claims, and as it was well known that the great majority of the electors were against further concession to the Roman Catholics, it was proposed to bring forward a third candi :date, upon anti-Catholic principles. lie :ould assert this positively, for he had his information from the Steward.of the Duke of Newcastle. lie had a third handbill, also in the No Popery line, which came, if he' was rightly in formed, from Mr. Goulburn, brother to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was addressed to the Independent Electorss—(Hear, hear, from the Treasury benches)—and it was in all probability argued, from the circumstance of that Gentletnan's (who might perhaps be supposed to be in his brother's secrets) addressing them at all, that there was no doubt of the final decision of the question then under the consideration of the Mouse. Mr. Secretary PEEL had never heard of it before. Mr. TENNYSON resumed. It was said it would be a great injury - to the county if the elective franchise were re moved from East Retford. Fm hiMself he could truly say, it was not his wish to injure Nottingham, but on the con trary, to relieve it from a flagrant nuisance. Nottingham had at one time only four representatives'. The last act of a peculiar prerogative of the Crown was exercised in its favour when the borough of Newark was summoned by Charles the Second ; and thie was not done because Newark Wanted representation, but from a feeling of gratitude upon the part of flail Monarch for the loyalty displayed by this town towards..itie unfortunate father; and he begged to ask, in what Way'had the Members ,for East Retford ever 'represented the county .of Nottingham ? The M e mbers I . eaurned were - not 'even gentlemen Of 'Nottingham, and "they Were elected by a couple of hundred of poor and insiguificant persons. In 1818, Mr. Duncombe dad Mr. Evans had been. returned ; they were both strangers. The Members in 1812, Mr. Osbaldeston and Mr. Marsh ; and those in 1826, Sir R. Dundas and Mr. were also strangers. How then could it be made out that East Retford had given any representation to Nottingham? Besides, even With six members, this county would be ade quately represented.. Warwickshire, in vvhiel there were 300,000 souls, had only six representatives ; whereas the inhabitants of the county of Nottingham only amounted to 199,000.. He had no bigotted feeling against the landed interest : and he begged to remind his Hon. Vyiend that he had divided with him not long eineti in the minority in sup• port of that interest. He would, accordingly, refer to authority for the positions he upheld—to the authority of Sir WilliaMillackstone, who says— . " The Knights of Shires are the representatives.of the landholders, or landed interest of the kingdom; their elec tors must, therefore, have estates in lands or tenements within the county represented. As for the electors of citizens and burgesses, these are supposed to be a mercantile part or trading interest of this kingdom. But as trade is of a fluctuating nature, and seldom long fixed in a plaCe, it was formerly left to the Crown to summon, pro re nata, the niost flourishing towns to send representatives to Par liament. So that as towns increased in trade, and grew populous, they were admitted to a share in the legislature. But the misfortune is, that the deserted boroughs continued , to be summoned, as well as those to whom their trade and' inhabitants were transferred ; except a few which petie tioned to be eased of the expence, then usual, of maintain ing their Members ; four shillings a day being allowed for a Knight of the . Shire, and two shillings for a citizen or hurgess ; which wreethe rate of wages established in the reign of Edward HI. Hence the Members for boroughs now hear above a quadruple proportion to those for counties. and the number of Parliament men is increased since For tescoe's time, in the reign of Henry VI., from 300 to up wards of 500, exclusive of those for Scotland." At that time, it appeared these boroughs were in the hands of the commercial or trailing interest, which have 'since taken a contrary course. But a new commercial class has arisen since that period without the pale of the Con stitution, and he contended that a representation ought to be given to this important interest, which had appeared, by transferring to it all rights that were justly forfeited. This class had to supply itself, having been compelled in some sort to invade the open boroughs. They ought to get rid of venality—that was acknowledged on all bands, but it was equally clear they never could get rid of venality as the representation of the country then stood. Such voters as those of East Retford, for instance, never could be in duced to come to the poll except by bribery; and therefore no opportunity should be lost of - putting the elective franchise into fitter hands, while they at the same time supplied a want in the representation. The landed interest was in a proportion of 500 to 1, when the lands were in the possession of the King, Church, and Nobles. And it was a remarkable fact that 93 of the boroughs new enjoying the right of ramming Members to Parliament had been summoned by the several Monarchs in the cen ,tury between Henry the 'Eighth and Charles the Second. Amongst these were Liverpool, Durham, Preston, and East Retford. He would appeal to the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the commerce of the country did not, at this moment, supply more than a moiety of its revenue? But to show the relative advance of the commercial and the landed interest he would make a short statement from documents which he then held in his hand. In 1698, the total rental of this country was esti mated to amount to from 10 to 14,000,0001. per annum. In 1812 it was estimated at 30,000,0001. In 1689 the amount of our Customs was about 110,000/. ; in 1827 they amounted to 20,000,000/. if such was the enormous increase in one hundred 'years of our commercial (in cluding, of course, our manufacturing) iuterest, it did seem very unjust to attribute such a superiority to the landed interest as to transfer the franchise in question to the hundred of East Retford or to the county. So much had the influence and the consequences of our commerce extended with its increase, that they bad made the middling classes 'of society the depositories of the true power, • and 'feeling, and wealth of the community. Sonic there were, he knew, who looked with alarm at the pro digious advances which these classes, from one and the same cause, had been making during the• last half. century; and he would confess that at times he had been himself anxious and curious to know whether, in future, their influence and power would be still further permitted to exert themselves. Let those, how ever, who experienced this alarm, consider the state of the representative system, and they would find there the true • criterion of the justice or the fallacy of their fears. No representative system could long subsist, or subsist for any good purpose, which did not, to a great extent, at least vir tually represent, as it might profess to do, the body of the people. If our own representative system continued to give all its influence to the landed interest, while our commercialinterest was making this mighty progress, it would no longer respond. to the- exigencies of the present constitution of society, and some terrible convulsion would be the consequence of refusing to allow it to do so. Indeed if the adequate representation of our commerce had been, even from a very early period in the history of our Consti tution, a favourite and serious . ' object of oui Statesmen, how much more so- should it be now, when-these great, interests of trade rind manufactures had attained st) rapid and overwhelming a growth ? The chief source of our. wealth was 'derived from our t-Maiitifacturing (Hear, hear.)s—That .Was the .real• source of our 'riches. and our grandeur. Now, looking to these considera tions, let the House contemplate the -prodigious rise of the town of Birmingham; • and observe how extra ordinary a value its manufacturing industry communicated to the mineral produce of the kingdom.—(Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman went into some details connected with the statistical history of Birmingham, which were lost to the gallery, owing to the loud expres sions of impatience which broke out in all parts of the House.) The Houselad already determined that the town, of Manchester was entitled to be represented, and no man. rejoiced more sincerely than himself at this decision ; but much stronger was the claim of Birmingham to the same distinction. He had. proposed Birmingham as a proper place to be substituted forsuch a purpose, in lieu of East Retford, purely on. public grounds; and when the Right, Hone Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) the other night ob served, that he had heard it rumoured that.. be (Mr. T.) intended to offer himself as a candidate for Birmingham— (A laugh).—the tone and manner in . which the Right lion. Gentleman spoke sufficiently indicated that he himself, gave no credence to that most unfounded and most unjust. report.—(Hear.) • :The Hon. and Learned Gentleman con cluded his speech, which was constantly interrupted by cries of " Question,. question," with. an appeal to the Committee on behalf of the claims of Birmingham to the forfeited franchise of .East Retford. Mr. N. CALVERT denied that the landed interest claimed or met with that paramount consideration from Parliament which the Hon. Gentleman spoke of. All asked for was adequate protection. Mr. LUMLEY spoke in favour of the transfer of the franchise to the adjacent hendred. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN warmly opposed this.pro position ; and supported the claim of Birmingham. (Th e frequent interruptions which the worthy Alderman expe rienced in the course of his speech render it impossible to give any detailed report of • it. At one part of it, he de clared " that he never had been, nor would be, put down. by clamour ;" but the cries of " Question," and o s poke, . redoubled precisely at that moment. He then entered into some reasoning to skew that it was the duty of the House to listen to him on a subject that regarded the representa tion of the people ; and was proceeding with some account of " the first Borough which was visited for corrupt prac tices, after the revolution," when he was again assailed by cries of " Question." Hereupon, he euggested that it might be better for those Hon. Members, who found it in couveuient to listen to him, to withdraw ; a suggestion, however, which was received with much laughter ; and this excitement was considerably increased by a young Member's gravely calling out " withdraw, withdraw," as if a division were about to take place. A " stranger" in s i i o n n t r t u h t a h t , li s e o x st i r c a a r te ig d ez 7 the seemed, e l t t o h e Gallery,slabour 1 who det but perfectly " at home," responded to these exclamations by some ridiculous remarks, uttered in a rune so indeco rously loud, as to defeat, for some time, every chance of our hearing the Worthy Aldermen.)—He could not sit down without expressing a hope that , in future, that House would upon no occasion govern its own conduct by what it should consider likely to be done in another pla.ce. He hoped the House of Commons wo uld always d? `:" was just and right in its own view, utte rl y regal' al " h et what might be the course elsewhere An Hon. Member, whose name we could not.learn, said a few words which were i nnai : u ib po le i i i n w t h h i e ch g a l l e lyi n lie Sir G. PHILLIPS was of opinion that the manufac turing interest required more attention as to representa tion than the agricultural, because time manufacturing in terest was of a more diversified character. Mr.' Secretary PEEL had a lready shewn by the vote lie hadba givenstated ths ctalsiee hofadPtoerYsay on the general gee tion— that he had.no invincible objection to transfer the lective franchise of a corrupt boroogh to a place of inanin' luring importanCe. , He did thigh, however ; - there - was 'a great difference betwixt the cases of Penryn and East lb As be hard already stated, he thought it fair to loot: at the whole case; 'and to take into consideration the'forn nett led to cii' duct of the boroligh. If that were tk the . him' tli decision ._°f tee e 0,, the warnings given to Penryn , by House, upon cases of former misconahlet , liust ° e. ,, di i witted to weigh materially against. the‘F Phee• ,le `..n, 6 0 .think, also that it was a plain intellig 'UAe : :P ri-c 7r t which, he bad acted in that case, the takfil into ~viliae the forty-two Members of . the one county r '''",_, ea a s s the elective franchise was taken, and the eigh l e u _ . ° ;t e el to the other county. Upon these grounds be . la ' ibe e to transfer the franchise to Manche ster, and beca•lr a _ be were no such ingredients in the c ase of East Retie d I by preferred acting on the. principle always maintains . 0 throwing the right into the hundred. With reference ,:.. the complaint made by the Hon. Member opposite (14':, Tennyson), of his (Mr. P.'te) allusion to the report tit' he was to be the chosen candidate of Birmingham,.. ° : ti°' begged to remind the Hon. Gen t lem an that the observa was made in answer to an imputation upon his side of'.! l °' House of a desire to give the advantage to a great Noblere v If actuated by personal motives', he should certainlyleli, his vote for Birmingham, as there was no place in wlitc,, lie Wes so deeply interested.—(Hear, hear .) -He he; nothing, and' had never heard of the hutsoired of before that occasion, and the only candiaite of that e l ; he had heard of was Mr. Gaily Knight, of ewhain he k"`: r nothing but that he was the author of a parrephlet i n f tj of Catholic Emancipation, which could no t b t euPP°66Lat - r eco mmend - him to his choice. It ha d ' bee ni enf'P'fi-„, 'that , he, and those who voted with him, r for in,l 10,y 'maul by the circumstance of the b rother of ti le C", . 'eellor of the Enehequer being a ' c andidatee ael hundred' of Bassetlaw. He bad known' - _moth''_ v this till he had entered the House that ,evening, be" ..o , had learnt since that the gentlem an alluded' to eras a . ~ didate for the borough of Bast Retford itself, which' ee• pletely changed the direction of t he accusation. With l spect to the House of Lords, he knew noth in g of what b°, been elope or was intende d with respect to the Bill t hu d He adhered to the opinion he had formerly. given, Oa agreeing with the Hon. Alderman, that great care ou0!:;, biTe:gexthereceisleetd..tiivn'etree-7_ ifniaatnteerii,o,ffrtolimis Eastkinel ,Rheetfporeniferrto,edthe by died of Bassetlaw rather than to Birmingham. Mr. LITTLETON thought this was a question 1 3 1„, liarly regarding the interest of the manufeeturing poP no tion. In Nottinghamshire there was one Member for ~..%I , o e , people. In Warwickshire the representation was ote e: . , scale of Ito 40,000 of the population. Uponevliat pritmoo ciple then could Warwickshire be excluded ? Birneice e l, was, in many respects, eligible" for t he transfer of the . 0 . tive franchise ; it was united -in feeling througheiialcitif whole population, and, as a place of importance, scare # inferior to any in the kingdom. He bad made an oiling of the amount of legislative enactment with 'referetin that place, and he bad found that in Canal diets,' the Bills, Church Bills, and Local and Police Acts, in e o course of twenty years there had not been fewer than,t, for Birmingham. It contained .1,90() mas t e r mann, t ure rs, and possessed a greater variety of trades thate:loo to be found in any other part of the country with iii ~ 4 same compass. (Hear, hear.) Its export trade coni n , chiefly of iron, which was not an exotic, like cotton the silk. Few every one pound's worth of iron, ar ticles to be value of 1001. were manufactured. This would give ita House en idea of the useful nature of the i n dustr y of td, place to the labouring class of the .com munit y . . -14,,, milted he felt some interest in the peosPe r i t y of Bierevira ' hani from his connection w ith it ; but he voted ilpeil If present occasion upon a great constitutiona l principle. et, Ile was an enemy to Parliamen t a r y Reform lie should, t l thie Bill to Le thrown'out. ' 0 14 Mr. STANLEY, upon constitutional grounds, sh° fa at:fohr he forms believed :, nd tiif.nftoherttdahitoewnyiatosdfwis, give his vote. tor the transfer of the elective franchise lo o f the corrupt borouel, of East Retford to the Boroufeb jo Birmingham. They were told they had nothing t° fa with what was passing elsewhere. But was it possib ig ia t that House or the country to pretend that they did o pt know what was the fate of the Penryn Disfranchiest'a) Dill. The' Right Hon. Geutkinan (Mr. SecreeeiY .l :, o o had told them that he did not decide this question w aa . principle. It was, however, decided upon comp!! ' and with compromise that House had nothing to do. o e the principle hitherto acted upon had been to give the Li ponderenee to the agricultural interest, the 000 Pee ' P o e retraced their steps the better. There- was alresdl branch of the Constitution exclusively devoted tote :cultural interests. . God forbid it should be od es but it was equally the duty of that House to look o t o jower order of interests. They had, to be sures ire t he House, the Knights of the Shires - to represent .the agricultural interests, but the great body of House was intended to represent the beroughs; op t he contended that it was their duty, wino t o borough had ceased, from corruption, to be ahlefud exercise its functions, to transfer the right to 07 0 ; place of the same rank in legislation. But why addit i e s privileges should be given to the freeholders of n, Retford, and of the hundred of, Bassettaw , who a lres,/, had votes for the county, it passed his ingenuity, and ' believed that of every other person, .to discover. If P r ; portions were to .be observed, . they should.. look tel,„ county of. Chester, which contained an immense, a weibt e aed a manufacturing population, and which . wee.,,ser sented only by two Members for the county,,and:terni hers for Chester, a town situated is the western ozn7i t t of the county, anti quite remote from its manufactov,::' population.. If, however, the House consented to' hi:), weuld.callit a miserable;comprotnise ; the principle ° P l ie,. go, altogether , as it had, hitherto done,. in . favour 9e . hi landed interest. It had' gone so . in, the last instance ; g.: g. four Members to the county .of, York, and in , t i two . or three former instances the franchise, 'as opens" ) ) the neighbouring hundreds, which, had so . far set ~a t y precedent, and every other instance, would. but leul e , t case still worse, wherefore he would give his bup . _ o # the meesure of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Tennyson), P e T t e he acted ,on the sound principle of reform; Met a l l e i eion of reform. be bad no wish to introduce, but he P;,4 objection tp, reforep ,when introduced on sound - r - fel principleee he had ,no wish for sweeping measure s 0 where there was a constitutional case caught. hold ° f ' principle was - . ee ~..—e—.eaudaque pilos, ut qui= Paullatim vello et demo unum, demo etiam unulle Dion cadet elusus ratione ruentis acervi," .00 until the whole mass of corruption was by degree ° the e a siati n .: ; : a iyi y nga . ttoe. n H fmo e trellna w ;nsa a sr s dogf n rgo o tri t ioonum a dn: t d h rto eo ohmfa r t e ies t iei i f e uo a i. rt l :h r o e paf fo .neoa r dx m :co e nsieibottuiteteeytt:wt, constitutional was a gross and palpable' case, that could come toid ef a ee exercise of Parliamentary law, then he would not deed o; , i d i,(! e o,: c ir.trio i be s t io gTrt n hhep . ne d trrnoo i e : c e msr ; oes e ning n st)ii (Hear, hear.) So strongly did he feel the nerce.` tY ta l :no: continue frome)etehsstiieh.nomßt should I li e d, : chancep ih efrtpiolopit of seifnet .his correcting,i h o n ae ndh o du f atdyp h ar i sut to li hta hboeoari palpable : ea r riv 7 bA t a t I; trs.„,) lb lrtsv P hahlta,i ß l:eitt p cer.ii p ser,slv o .vtt . . i m a p pointment e ol 1 eh n oke t eu o d two f ß Members it must iiievitahly fall, if the amendment were agreed I/1 ;W 11Ir. L. FOSTER said that the question *MY 04 called on .to decide was not - between Birmingha g° t g • Beesetlaw, but as. to whether. they were.. then w led, precedent ever after to be followed—that of. an e ° ,, t , g 3) popular representation ; for in this Session they had sir and given a pledge to that effect in. the case of PentY°:a - lel if they did so in a second instance, they v/ o° . l l/.1 bound by that precedent. (Cheers from the Opposition!, l .lo He, knew, the ,meaning of those cheers ; but he deei r n it House to Wok to the inferences which would be elerl i d the next year by those Gentlemen who had thue.e bee m ei and see whether they would not deduce strppg erf . ,, ) id from this precedent. The Hon. Member (Mr..al o r. had talked of -checks by.the three estates upon each % 0 01 , d i a : s u l e o a es o t: H k e do m it n n t e .i i i r a t A i n l i y ue t nim h to a b: t ei t i a ni c c h r i vi s ec r , : k reo h s . e .ei 7 o l tr e , :: ijor, exist in a Constitutional Government, and in eyerY v r .,, of those estates. They were told not to look to theeriraii that House. He, was anxious P; r0 1 ic 1 rvseole"eto:vot: from ta were there not sufficient chicks, and was not each ill o ie r shshould whether u : d h have p a e s u t i itisltnydoi fairaf : et I t u . t. ernt iW e stia: India,ditlooking, might Protestantteoto thelfound o u: C 11.4 1 1 : 50 at the course about one to two thousand, ,and be, !T i led atihmisit7otßE, to be so w Ou sh l o d ul a d t once ho seen _.,'"' i 11l founded were the rumours that 'the ,change prow'','; only intended to increase the power of the aristotlic. as e hte.akfeelnt withi t hi s dutrespectyin the 7;;;:16 ,, he now express ee )a , t Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel). His Right Hon' j l i e ti thought that the cases of Penryn and East.RetfOr d ° a be de a lt w ith on grounds of expediency. That eva%o, the course he would pursue, as he would deaLleithi el cording to' the dictites of justice. He said then es, 7 t if)t said last Session, that he did not think the House jaueeil, in taking away the franchise of Penryn ; f or after I°y fifty electors ami l lted, a had e pgol u ie nc in o t u o t ,tle i r a ew were thateifound was theone hundr! vr, rees e o l'' had voted against the Bill being sent up to the Lorl'' of t . wa s sure it would 'meet the fate which it was vaiu 0 " ee' attempt to conceal, it being well known that it . ''i ° ' fef e at all: ' events, - see far us' respected Mancheste r ' t ce - e, Retford, however, was one ''of the most corravocr, ever witnessed, for' there. it was not even At, 001:1 - to - Wshown that there were 20 who were not s"( 1 lit and 'yet what kind of principle was that they beeib called on to sanction? eVifilyiethat of the v n g r ° 1 i f e ronrue 6 d h n dt, ft i o e t he n a t r o g e ; r o t the Hu n . 111eml ever Would be. th oeght he sh oi takin g away a 'hit for corr upt Lord SAy a - ) the original riZo Mr. Secr e t or ciPle th a t t h e f disfrourch iscd. 4114 as what bit Bai di Mated on ylition had be 4raochise to the raerly, enjoyed lub gdern. No "ntirlered a sti wh en the Hot u rk t ioh, it di , ,a 4ted that a col 4° Pen to the vici nt . Shoreham, eetrve tvaa stre Plate who had '''lttlipt purpose t ° take away tl it snst fur guilt 1 Cr," of the I Infuse fresh blc 'udders of the t hey had with ehise to the ne Mr. N. CA the franchise Last Retford s "a also to cen 17i- ere rated at 2 Mr. S e c, ittet, to annihi, Pound, inasmu to East Rrtfor, Borough. He he given, becal Shire's motion t he Committee t'o prevent all he duly reprec *ould no long to, arid that th f ranchise to th qtrnstances, hi bety, and wit' Postponed. it would "'eta lip to the Manchester for e, Wag to Question !") INS