The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-15 00:00:00

inshinee, must be ;lir to go' slariuti. we i C b_°l ve of th d COI Ifell e prelen‘ he 1101, 10 (won 0 1 one. H's tionleil to ,rl, whicil instauce s, rd to .be tlopted fti 6 P°P.tio4ii oust . v 044 ) had . til° !re wool i I, but the ler's t igli t desceiol .8 that i° re whoilt ieetiou 0 1 d t hat li t t systentl. Lord 0° great td* its quo° t was atnentsti I for ant rnproviog that til ° riebyleo. id brio4 Df (halo' ken fro° (I nut or, rble Lor the 131 11 / is Not ll . g , and *V ie to CO o' ihoulti .n to tbg stunt r oe be 0 ° lid advii c I to This, ti g to be ac li 110 04 existing' first 0b here o's' repes(el:; br0",,1 Drol ol .o o rakvo ll e bitl l4€ , its a a°o, any I bi iog h (01 r ,I he ( bl e i t i 'fit 114 ` ; ( 1 0 eff 4 l,l a, °ries 1. the •ly i 011 ) 1' , )tI lc) 5 d C0,1‘;1! II I)CII Ore (; IlliSS i° DP ' 40 ; 1 1)e listorLY Ljberso 4 te l ei:'tlo - le 1°)(1 1 1 sou"' , 10,1 le oi "ve :Yj ell e f ' ' )1 , 1 :0 1 ce ive 00 a d o r , ; It le [lie So , i , ttig Ile • übj...cted to the introrluction of ny new lose 11;c1 "soold alter the frameswork of the Consols especially es the one proposed did not '"Lastly the acknowledged abuses of the exi•tiog ; and this he +bou g ht th e H ouse was b oun d I ' l the first instance to do ;• for these abuses wet e ' l t lt'h as to disgrace the tepresentation. and to the Constitution into disrepute, and it was 4 ."'ly by an application of the proper remedy, that It 'tow could be testored to its original vigour beauty ; and the consideration o f the of Patliamentary Reform was notch l'sjirdieed by the Adrocates for Uoiversal 11 ee, Amoral Parliaments, and Election by '•anot ; for as by reference to the most un anthori'y, it must appear that those in tredicnts were not to be found in the fundamental )I r.vtio e of the Conslit/dion, since it assrimed a .ettletl form, so it must follow that it they be now =:ratted upon it, the change will ithlOntit to 110- i ltling less th a n Re vo l ut i on , for what is Revolution "' a change or alteration ttom one system or of Giiverioneto to rum bet ? The only ‘litlrerence would he as to the mode of bringing it thout, as it would not be eflected by force. The 4Nolde Lord on the other side had eloquently de the original structure of tile British Coo. I litntio n , and he (Mr. Blake) would add, that that ' st ructure was to be venerated not only for its ex "'knee, but also because it is the approved and tr ied work of the experience and wisdom of aceu illalated years. The Noble Lord's motion i t' flit wed against bribery roily, and therefore le teller! agaitist the lower orders, while the affluent INubleman is the object of ratticulAr protection— "e class of voters much inure numerous now -1 " u in former times ; the freehold franchise is fourfold more extended ; and in this point of view tl 'eConstittvion has gained much. Forty sirilling tr,eeloulds %vete first created in the reign of Henry • or VI. yet the number then must have been oo chr ybecause it 55144 not till the tirne t Henry VII. the Barons were empowered 14 alienate their estates, and it ‘‘as Snl) , ,(lllently Ui Course, to that time, that their tenants be tedlne possessed of treehold property; indeed until t his time, he believed, or near it, the agricultu- P gi people were respected little more than the '"iter movable property belonging to the estate. gtelt certainly was the case in earlier times, as the t votfi e r,f M a via Charla demonstrate. The 11. m. itintoher bugged pardon ()tthe House for hartog I,ruspassed at all, especially alier the bilbject had Leen disposed of by the compromise which had ihke n but h e could not consistently with I's dory to his Constituents give a silent vote. Lord J. RUSSELL. rose with very great satistac ii"u to return his 'hauls' to the Noble Lord, fur Ills outliner in which be had met the motto!), aod t " congratulate the House on the result of the n ight. li e was ready to confess, that during the 44 '“ Session of Parliament he received every as sistance from the Noble Lord in the inquiry te !Pectiug the cursor:6mi proved to evst in the Aorough of Gratonound ; and he was also tufty t v kb own, that to what lie had done thAi oight he lath gone beyond his ,Lord J. Russell's) expec-. t4 tions. He would not say u single word to tits t"th the unanimity of the House, lie understood. 1 1 ::e Nohle Laid to consent that a Bill should be in to disfranchise Glampollnd, and tratis vr it s two Membeis to some other place ; and lie 4154 understood that where Cornish boroughs were eonvictrd of Corrupt practices, that they B yte to he visited with the justice of Parliament tecording to the merits of the case. Ile had now ' l _ l4l }' to say, that oil Thursday be worth! move for have to filing in a Bill to disfranchise the Bo :1'1W' Grampound, and to transfer its elective "attehise to some great and populous town. He s liutild prefer tisk to giving it to a county. At Present he could not Say what town he should t a 'ne. The question was not to be determined It the population of the town alone. The House %told(' have to take many other circumstances into tl 'eir consideration when the question came before eL etn. Ile now begged to withdraw the motion. • Lord .MILToN did not know that it was trite 11 ;olar l o sp ea k, after th e N o bl e L or d h a d as k e d leave to withdraw his motion. lie however could , "1 flirt express his satisfaction at the result of night, It'ith respect to the Hull to be brought t it, he thought it might beneficially contain a clause establishing a class of voters, whose rights had wr eotste obsolete. Lord CASTLFEE.AGII begged to he understood as 11, 1 pledging i mo s t ir It, any inode of carrying , the tt 4uster of the electite franchise into e ff ect . H e m imed it to be left open to the House to deal %sit 11 cost according to its merits. motion was their nit olt IRELAND. M: • CALLAGuAN ihov(-(1 fur !rave to bring in , • Bills ; the 011 C to Leg/date the Houses of In• in Ireland, the other to repeal the Irish Act. " \ll. L. FOsTFIt opposed th e former, as going to tnirtiduce. the Loglish system of 'POor Laws into ; and, after a felt words from Lord AL w. PARNELL., and Mr. C. GRANT, the v lt lntio it was witlidi awn. Leav e was given to the secomi Bill. tVoup moved fur leave to bring 'rt . 10 promote the Treide, 'Manufactories, " 4 "I 1 ishel iss of Ireland, by emotiraging Partner thi,i. VLUNKETT reinatked, that this Bill, though " ..41 ( 1 hi he tor the encouragement of the trade, 14.-I ttittactoticF, and fisheries of ' , eland, did not t"ntaiti one mild about them. li was, however, '`"t more remarkable for its omissions than for its "'nients. 'lite Bill in tact contained some very "u tdordinaly provisions ; it went to sweep away !:*llOl, Cole of laws, which were at present per l'lndersiood, and to which the commerce of t 4)l*. country bad aciommodated itself, and there- , eet !bough lie did not opp ose th e b ring i ng i n iliu Bill, he thought it right to say that he was ""'t threidedly against the measure. WoOD deteinien it as necessary. lie e l i.+~urre which had arisen under the present hail driven almost every English capitalist rt ..1 tie conotty. It the Irish Gentlemen 01 ) - el, (t . to his Bill, he would withdraw the motion.. k At " . r few WOlliN 1141111 LutdiocFLYN and Mr.' l i•snts, heave was given to bring in the Bill. k iN, A.NurAcTuitiNG DISTiZICTS IN SCOTI,AND. AIAX‘VELL i;aVe tiolice, lilac oil Thursday `".ld tuo‘e for tilt: appututnieni of a CUU:NIit• lee 10 ililo the iittite of the iNianuftictu;(4,, , , llistricts ill SC0(1/11111. I.IIIEI. BILL. On the motion of Lord CASTLRREAGH, the se cond reading of the Libel Bill Was posEpuned till to-morrow. SEIZURE OF ARMS BILL. Lord CAsTLEtteAGit having moved the Order of the DaV f o r goilik .. ,into ti Committ ee On (his Bill, Mr. LAMBTON Stated, that be had received let ters, ittiouning him / that pellect tranquillity now ruigned in the Co:nity of Durham, and that none of the colliers %rho %vent .to the meetiog were arturd A Ministerial Paper having the other day published accounts of n different nature, tin der the head of '' State of the Coontry," be had received by ti!e saute post a letter, assuring him that. the ;Magistrates of Durham intended to give a Ituhlic contradiction to that statement. The tran quillity of the county not being disturbed, lie should theretote move th a t air instruction be given to the Committee to prevent any of the provisions of the said Bill from extending to the County of Durham. Mr. Powr.writ stated, from authority in which he could place implicit confidence, though lie was not authorised to mention the. source to the House, fiat the 1114;zistrates of that county had held a meeting at Durham, in which they ILA come to a resolution, on account of existing eir curnstances, that it was absolutely necessary the Yeomanry should be put on permanent duty.— (Heat, hear, hear!) The motion was then pot and negatived. iiiticn took a comprehensive view of the distresses of the people, principally in the county of Nottinham, and of the traminillity of the peo ple under them in that part of the country. Out of 10,000 frames in that county, 3,171 were at this moment unemployed, yet there was no proof that any disturbance had taken place atnon4 the suffereri. He should therefore move, that the Committee he instructco not :o extend the pro ‘' sirens of the Bill to the county :IA city of Nut tinghatn. Lord RANcLIFFE thought it his duty, in justice to his Constituents, to state, that the most perfect trangoiliity existed amongst them, thong') their (listless was so great, that in one parish:bone one thousand unforturia:e ‘vorkmen could find no em ployment. Uuder every of view, he consi der:d the present ine,lsores as the most improper which the House colt adopt, What had been rite result of similar measin es in Ireland, that mismanaged country, so blessed by Heaven and so curred by man ? They had produced nothing but assassinations, Hie fruits of outraged feelings, deprived of all other means of eXpre•Sing their force. Woe his own house attacked by such in uderS at; the preseot Bill would create, he should think he did nut exceed his duty, as a free-born English subject, it he did resist them.—(Hear, hear 1) Mr. DENMAN also contended that there was no disturbance to justify the extension of the measure to the (Wilily of Nottingham. MI. R. AlAtiliN had no dOnht that if the mea sure tre,,t by another title, and was called A Hill for the preset vation of G,tine. few, if any, of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, would be found to urge any objection agaiast it.—(Laughter The motion was then negatived, and the Order of the Day having been read, Lord CA.,TLEREACai moved, that the Speaker do leave the Chair. 1 . . I'ROTtiEHOE, in a speech of considerable length, but which, trout the agitation which pre vailed in the liouse, was ithoost entirely inaudi ble in the Gallery, was understood to snpputt the measure on the ground or necessity, as it was ad mitted by all parties, and he was convinced him self, not by the doeurneots before the House, but by actual information, that a wide extended con spiracy existed to change the Constittition, and that the people were misled by deeper individuals themselves, who wished, by a revolution, to rise above their native oh,curity. Mr. At ,ON spoke against the principle of the Bill, as tending to take 'away toe right which Enelislitnen injured tinder the Constitution, of keeping arms for the protection Of themselves and their property. He did not think the papers on the table tut nished grounds euoneli to sanction Ministers in giving to a single Magistrate a power so odious, as that of entering any man's house by night in search of arins.---(llear.)—With re gard to the names of counties in the Bill, as Hon. Members had oink ttaken to speak to the tran quillity of Durban' and Northumberland, he would nut hesitate 10 give his testimony to the peaceful conditiots of Yar mouth, which he represented. But it was not to this Bill alone that he objected, but to the system of which it was only a part, and more espccially to the Bills restraining the liberty of the press. Alter some other remarks, he con do:led by sayieg, that in the view he had taken, he was not influenced by any party feelings ; and that he would always be ready to do credit to those who proposed these measures, so soon as he saw them efficacious in their consequences. —(I-lean .) The question was then put and carried, and the resolved itself into a Committee. The first clause of the Bill having been read, Mr. B E NIN ET objected to the whole principle of the Ine . rtstue, and stated that he had opposed the sante resistance to a similar Bill brought in by his Majesty's Ministers in 1812. With re• sped particular clauses, he could not approve of giving the power of takiug iuformations on oath and issuing starch warrants to one Justice of the P6ce alone. All men were aware of the deplorable effects of a common seizure by day ; hot how little were they if compared with the consequences of an assault by night, when a man and his futnily were in bed ? Would then the measure be extended to other courvies, and would his Majesty's Ministers infin4 torture in order to extort confession ?—(1-tear, hear !)—That would probably be tile next step, it not necessary consequence of the first. If arms were not found, the whole Bill would prove nugatory. And he was convinced that, under its provisions, few ar ms would be found, and that it would turn out to he an utter failure, except for the purpose of irrita tion. He admitted, at the 130111 C time, th a t his objections to the measure would be consid e rably removed if the power of taking information and d 10.6 Were g Ven to two ,Aijgivr,Lei instead of one, and the search for arms contlucd to the day—(EJear, hear!)—fie concluded by mov ing au amendment to that effect. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in rising, said, the Hon. Member had very properly looked upon the clauses, to which he objected, as containiog the pith vet the Bill itself. In his ;arguments, the Hon. Member-stated that he opposed this, as he did the measure of 1812, on the groond that any , search at all was inconsistent with the liberty of the subject, fool ,that no consideration of public safety should . induce Gentlemen of that House to sacrifice so much private feeling. lie had also slated that there was no precedent tor, a measure like this, awl he would have the House think that it was one to which there was no analogy in all our history. • In all this, he (LOrd.o 1 complained of great want of candour ; for lie 3t.7etned to look only at one,sole of the question, and to be pet - - !twitted that danger to the subject could not pos sibly come from :soy quartet' but from the Magis trates. Lie would show, that there were prece defies ; and by the way, he would observe, that the Hon. Gentleman, in desiring that the power should be given to two Magistrates, in place of one, admitted that there was some necessity for the measure.—(Heat !)—Nuw, one word with re eard to the novelty of this measure. It was very singular, that in 1812, seven years ago, a Bill, much stronger than this, passed the House, al most unanimously, after the fullest investigation from many able Gentlemen at the other side.— The present was more guarded ; for, in that, a power was given to a single Magistrate to enter a house, by night or day, not Only upon oath, hot even upon suspicion of arms being concealed in a house. This was not the only power given to Magistrates, by that Bill, for they could also summon persons, to deliver up the evens, and all this WithOilt evidence unto) oath. He woold now show, that giving the power to two Magi,- trates, was to negative the whole Bill ; for, as they art upon intonnation, it might happen, that in many cases, the ;flans would be removed before two Magistrates could be found to act toeether.— With regard to the search by day, that also would negative the Bill. For, in disturbed districts, so organised was the system, that the motion 01 any constables or military, was uototious to the whole country. He admitted, that these ineasoles were strong and odious—(Bear, from the Opposition), but the temper of the times requite (I them.-- ( Hear !)—lt was, however, some ConiolaHoll to the House to know, that they were not entirely twel, and that there were precedents for them, in the time which vita accoonted the best of our history, when toe Whigs were in charge of the admi nistration of the courtly.—(llear !)—lt was said, t h at no me a s ure , Ike this. was proposed atter the Rebellions of 1715 and 1745, but the fact was otherwise. In the interval of these two periods, two Bills were passed, and three afterwards, by which this principle was made still stronger, by the liThig Administration of the day. The first, • it would he observed, was not far from the period of the Bill of Rights, and the measure for disarm itig the Highlands of Scotland. It was also said, that any measure which would be permanent, would be odious. But was it forgotten, that the Act Ist of George 1., though .f a local oat ore, was not temporary,and that it continued in force during all that reign, and up to the end of George 11. ? The 11 th of Gem ge 1., was made to confirm that, and by this it was made penal to keep back any arms Then came the 19th of Geo. 2d, to enforce that of Geo. Ist, after the Rebellion of 1745, and which was stronger in its enactments than the present Bill. Having stated that so severe was this, that even Members of Parliament and Peers could not keep arms, he said lie was sorry to hear Gentlerneo asserting that it was not reconcilable to any law ; and it was for this reason he had cited such strong cases as precedents. The worst humanity was to make the measure ineffectual, and pain the country without an object. In all the Lott.; precedents for disarming the Highlands of Scotland, it was true the right of search was confined to two Magistrates ; but, subsequently to 1745, • it Was given to one Magistrate alone. He did not pretend to say that the measure was ill the spirit of the Couatittation, as the Seditious Meetings' Bill and the other measures were ; on the contrary, he admitted they were against the people, but that they were called tOr by necessity. —(Hear !)—General rights were to he secured, and between two iocouveuiencies it was now a question of degree.—(Hear, hear !)—According to precedents, he found that attention should be paid to general rights, ut the same time he was not against Conceding to prop.rsitiOOS trOM Gen tlemen at the other side, but to the present Amendment he could not iu his conscience a4ree. hear !) Mr. Littouoti AM Said, it was at least clear from the admissions of the Noble Lord himself, that he did not cousider these measures cousoitutional, but that they were a violation of the laws.—Notwith standing this, however, he would not be stoprized to hear some ultra partizans stand up, and assert that they were quite in the spirit of the Constitu- With regard to the auswer giveo by the Noble Lord to the objections of hi) Hollow.- able Friend, the Member for Sloewsbury (Mr. Bennett), he observed, that he argued that be cause a law ten times worse than the present was passed feu or twelve years ago, that therefore the House should not hesitate now. When it was said at this side, that A single . .. Justice spoof) not be en trusted with the powers'under this 11 11, the Noble Lortl answer s, that by the law of 1812, a JUstice could not only enter a house mid seize tome, hot that also without having evidence upon oath. — But how far were Gentlemen at this side bound by that Act ? He contended that it could only bind those who then supporter) it. The Noble Lord had said, that if search was made for arms in the day-time, there would be to; opportunity for removing them; but he would ask, was not the very passing of the Bill notice enough to the possessors of them to conceal them ? After some more observations he ploceeded to say, that the precedent of the Acts for disarming the Highlands of Scotland was not applicable to the ' , resew case, Scotland was then in a state of open rebellion, the succession to the Throne was disputed, and ooe of the first Peers of the realm thlow•n into the Tower for high treason. Where was the analogy be:tweet' that time awl this.--licit lie bri;ged par t'on of the House, we were given to understand, that tocne was at this moment a rebellion -on the point of breaking out in the country. The day of rising even was fixed ; first it was Tbursday, then Sunday, and lately a great alarm was raised became it was chalked on several places in this metropo lis, " Remember the ytit of December," which., after all, only turned out to he the day of drawing the lottery—(A laugh !)—With reg:ird to the re sults of these severe measures in suppressing the rebellion in Scot:nu:4, he had never been able tri learn that they at all conduce(' to it; on the contrary, they bled a spirit of irritation which produced another rebellion, and it was not mild Ihe conciliating and wise measures of. Lord Chat ham that Scotland was put in such a Condition that the rebellion of 1745 was the last in thzic ,cduntry. lie ,vnold rather see Ministers take a lesson from the tifecis of that rebellion, and bz governed in their conduct by it. than by takin4 advantage of it to justify their conduct io these meastites. It was all iuvariablemaxim in Engitsn law, that every man's house was his castle ; and it was not only his castle against an inn oder anti a midnight assassin, but it was so iii a higher and a political sense ; and' every man was always allowed to have at in his house for his own defence, which he might even turn a‘t.tinst his rulers, if they broke the law and constitution ot the conntly.—(ilear, hear f.)—Far be it trout bin to preach up the 'doctrine of 'resistance, lie merely stated what seas laid down by the besc lawyers, and among others it was declared by Judge Blackstone, that men had a right to keel) arms for their defence. His principle was thils that 110 set on the part ot the rulers ot a country, should give a right to the subjects to talk of re sistance, it any alteration was intended to be male ifs the laws by the Parlianient ; and such attacks on the part of the people, be would resist with as n , uch zeal as lie would resist the attacks 01 the Crown against the tights of fire people. He conceived that this doctrine tended as much to the safety of the Crown, as it %%as hostile to Lad rukrs. Air. CANNING Said, he was ready to adm i t the doctrine of a right to carry arms in case of iota gOraly resistance ; but it he quarrelled with this doctrine, it was not with its piinciple, but the occasion on which it was to be applied ; and lie believed that more danger was likely io mite from mooring this qitestioa than any advantage likely to ai kis flow the possible seem ity it might give to ilia Constiintion. There was 110 abstract right on the part of the people in anyconntry which might not be constrained on the exigency of the case, by the ruling authorities. In support of this position, he would refer to the Bill of Rights, in which it was generally laid down, that, at though the people of the country were allowed to have arms for their defence, the permission was granted only to Pi ot eat ant subjects, and Catholics were not allowed the use of arms. His object in stating this was. not to throw out any reflection against Catholics, but to show that the very law so much boasted of, was nor passed with out some qualification, and if that law still ex isted, no small part of the population would be excluded troin the right in tpiestion. 'Phis part of the Bill of Bights was not levelled at the Catholic religion, but against those whose religion at that time was held to be a symptom of di sa ff ec ti on It was clear, however, that the general right allowed to the people to have arms, was qualified so tar as related to disaffected persons. He should therefore appeal to the Bill of Rights itself, in support of the measure then before the House; because that Bill made an exception with regatal to those who could not have dlllll5 without dan ger to the Country. The same principle applied to the present rase ; for it was merely proposed to take arms from chose who were likely to make a dangerous use of them. It was to be presumed that those who were learning the m;litary exercise at midnight, and appeared in military array, had some weapons which they might use ; and it was agreed on all sides that weapons w e r e to tie ; a l ie n from such persons. Ott the subject of this Bill two species of attacks were made ; one was against the principle 01 the Bill, the other was, that it was unpleccdented. Now he could show that it had been copied from the 811 of Rights, and when Gentlemen on the other side found they could not sustain that point, they said the measure was bad in itself,— Here the Right Honourable Gentleman read a paper (signed by some respectable names) which he said was a most impudent assertion—(tie al. hided to a protest against the present 11111).—To this extraordinary paper some very great [lames were pat, and the doing that was such a seanda bun magnatum, that no one knew what to think of it ; for it the party u siting that article had read Swollen's Coininnation, they must know the facts stated in that publication were false.— The NViiigs, who trained the Bill of Rights, had passed an Act for taking how the High lawless the amts which they carried ; and in 1726, the 11th of George I. another Act, confir matory Of this, was passed, inflicting heavy penalties on those carrying arms, and concealing : and the Hun. Gentleman would he shocked whet) he found, that even on women, a penalty of two years unpriaonment was inflicted. Another Bill, confirmatory of the same, was passed in the 19 h of Gros ii , in which- it was declared, that new provisiohs and penalties were required to put the measures still more tigidly a in force; and io the year 1759 theae Acta were renewed again,tvhile Lord Chatham was cashing dowit the. Iliahlandera to fight the battles of then country. Tlie PelialAcas were, by this last Act, declared to have brew useful and beneficial : than the Whigs went out of power, and the Acts atterwattls expired. So it appeared that dining tire whole of the Whig administration, am! 01,16 it pleased God 10 put an end to their power, •these severe acts were constantly kept in force.—(Loud cries of hear, hear !)- . --He thd tot nrean to state this as a justification of the pre sent Bid, but he did so with a slew of rebelling the imputation ilirown• out against those whi t were hostile to the Whigs. By all those Acts one Magistrate could grant warral,ts x‘ith.,ut informu:ion on oath, and there was no right of appeal : but in the peseta Bill [bete must be information out oath, and there was an appeal to the Sessions. So much for the assertion of hav ing now iairodueed Acts of unprecedahted seve- Illy 1 And the Hon. Cianflemsn could not taunt