The Sun. — London, England, 1870-10-25 00:00:00

H.— PAYMENT OF THE NATIONAL DEBT, • (BY THOMAS DE MESCHIN, L.L.D.) In 1864 the Prime Minister, then Chancellor of the Exchequer said—" Although it may have been the opinion of some, the caprice of ...thers, thati consequence of our great wealth, we might afford to look on the National Debt as a matter Jf trivial moment I must say I have never been at all able to acquiesce t that view. The debt appears to me to be a verY inflea ble and for midable burden, grave and serious, ev° in the midst of our wealth and prosperity, and likely become still more grave and serious in its pressure ifoa prosperity turned 1 out to be less permanent and less sta ., ethan most of us are disposed to believe." From this it ould appear that Mr. Gladstone is not in favour of "the ea-bite " theory, yet for the last six years, with all his gr at abilities, and still greater opportunities, what has he done? Nothing ! A great minister, if he cannot compel public opinion, should at least attempt to form it. Mr. Gladstone, with his great authority and fee,-+d eloquence, might easily have given a bent to the public mina ... - avour of liquidation. The same observation applies to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who says " as far as I am concerned I should be very glad if the House would consent to put on a shilling income-tax for the reduction of the debt." If this'be so, I want to know why the Crown is not ,advised to recommend the liquidation of the National Debt to the attention of Parliament ? During the debate on Mr. Lam I Mr. Pollard Urquhart asked, could anyone' deny that the customs and excise duties operated as a pressure on do mestic industry ? And he inferred that we ought not to pay off our debt because a highly taxed country had great difficulty in competing with foreign nations. He did not seem to see that this very fact is one of the strongest points in the case of those who are in favour of paying off the debt. The United States will have paid off their debt in fourteen years. Now, unless we pay off our debt in the same time that they are paying off thairs, we shall not have the slightest ,chance of competing with them in the markets of the world. On the other hand, if we pay off our debt pari passe with them, when both debts are paid, we shall start in the race with equal chances ; but if we commit the monstrous folly of allowing them to get rid of their debt, while we make no effort to get rid of ours, it is obvious that we sign the death warrant of our com mercial supremacy. Equally intenable is the remark, that we ought not to take the money of the people to purchase three per cent. annuties, upon which they might realize 20 or 30 per cent. by investing. It is very important to give an ade quate and complete answer to this objection, for not only was it urged by Mr. Pollard Urquhart, in the House of Commons, and caught a member of Sir John Lubbock's mark, who said " The hon. member (Mr. P. Urquhart) was also mistaken in his suppositions that to reduce the national debt was in fact buying up annuities at 3 per cent., for although the interest paid to the stockholder was only 3 per cent., the cost to the country wes consider ably more "; but it was reiterated upon both occasions, when the question was under discussion at the British Association in Liverpool—First of all, there is no analogy at all between the case of an individual who . takes money out of his business to purchase from some other persons annuities at 3 per cent., and the case of the nation paying its debt. With the individual the choice lies between the capital invested in his business and the 3 per cent. annuities, he can't have both, if he keeps the capital, he must do without the annuities, or if he purchases the annuities, he must part with his capital, "He can't have his cake and eat it." Not so the nation. The nation asja whole owns both the capital and the annuities ; it only takes the money from one set of people to give it to another set of people. It takes the money from the taxpayer and gives it to the fund-holder. There is no reason why it should not produce Mr. Pollard Urquhart's twenty or thirty, per cent. in the pocket of the paid-off fund-holder as well as in the pocket of the taxpayer. If the National Debt were held exclusively by foreigners there might be some force in this objection ; but almost the whole of the debt is due to persons resident in Eng land. Consequently, so far as the nation as a whole is concerned, it would be like a man paying money from one of his pockets into the other. But we will go further and say that the money would be much more likely to fructify in the pockets of the paid-off fund-holder than in the pockets of the taxpayer. Let us suppose that the debt is in process of being paid off as Mr. Lambert proposes, by a sixpence-in -the-pound income tax. It is said that the great bulk of the people of England live up to their income, and that some even manage to live beyond it. How does an income tax act upon this large portion of the community? It merely takes a por tion of their income that would have been expended un productively7-on horses, on carriages, on servants, or on what not. No part of their income so taken would ever fructify, that is, be employed in producing profit or com modities. They regard their income as a thing to be spent and enjoyed, from year to year, as it comes in. They save, or lay by, or capitalise no part of it. But when the Government takes sixpence in the pound from the income of these people, their unproductive ex penditure is diminished pro tanto, and the pro duce of the tax is employed in paying off the fund holder. But the fundholder has always been in the habit of considering his money in the funds as part of his capi tal, and there is no likelihood whate,ver that he would go and spend the whole sum he has received, upon being paid off, as part of that year's income. But if the sup posed income tax had not been levied upon that portion of the community who live up to their income, they would have spent it as part of that year's income. The result is, that money that would have been expended as part of the year's income, if left in the pockets of the taxpayers, is changed into capital by being paid over to the fund holder. That is, that money which would not have fruc tified in the pockets of the taxpayer, does fructify in the pockets of the paid-off fundholner, so that this argument against the payment of the debt, when we come to examine it by the light of common sense, is an argument in its favour, viz., that the payment of the National Debt would increase the capital of the country—it would convert a bare debt, and nothing more, into real tangible capital. So far, therefore, from such an income tax proving a tax upon capital, and driving it from our shores, it would very largely augment the capital of the country, and thereby benefit all classes. The whole drift and tone of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer's speech, in reply to Mr. Lambert, implied that an increase of the burdens of the people, for the purpose of paying off the debt, would have the same economic effect as if it were for the purpose of governmental expen. diture. This I deny in tote. I maintain it is a clear and transparent fallacy. Governmental expenditure for the most part represents a complete and total loss; on the other hand, the payment of the National Debt by means of an income tax is almost tantamount to the creation of so much capital. Governmental expenditure impoverishes the nation pro tanto; the payment of the National Debt would enhance the wealth of the nation nearly pro tanto. Governmental expenditure has almost the same economic effect as the destruction of £70,000,000 worth of railways per annum —the payment of £70,000,000 of the National Debt would be almost tantamount to the creation of rail ways worth that amount. If the United States of America desired to recoup them selves in respect of the enormous amount of capital that was wasted and destroyed during their four years' war the very best mode they could have adopted was that which they have done—that is, by paying off their debt at 20 millions a year. If they could have paid off double that amount per annum, the rehabilitation of their wasted capital would have been doubly rapid. If we might venture to say so, it is extremely fortunate that this question in the House of Commons is in such able hands as those of Mr. Lambert. His speech this session told with great effect upon the House. The clear sonorous voice in which it was delivered rung through the House. A day or two after a member of the Govern ment remarked to me how well it had been done; indeed, he seemed to think that it quite stamped Mr. Lambert's reputation. The subject had obviously been well thought out, for his speech of this session was immeasurably abler, fuller, and more statesmanlike than that of the previous session. One of the most remarkable things in these discussions is the discrepancies that are continually cropping up in the statistics quoted ; thus when Mr. Lambert was rating the Chancellor of the Exchequer for making a blunder of above eight millions and a half in overstating the reduc tion of the debt during the ten years ending 1868, Mr. Lambert stated that "the total amount of the National Debt, including capital of terminable annuities and un funded debt wa s i n 1858 £826 , 134 , 640, a nd in 1868 £797,031,650." [202 Hansard 14961 The difference of the two years being £29,102,990, the amount paid off. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated on a previous occasion that the amount was £37,819,000. Now, it will scarcely be believed that both the Chancellor of the E x _ chequer and M r . Lambert are wrong, and that both enor mously overstated the actual reduction, at least if we may trust the 17th number of the statistical abstract presented by her Majesty's command to both Houses. The abstract states the debt in 1858 to have been £829,634,258, which includes capital of unredeemed •funded debt, estimated capital of terminable annuities (computed at 3 per cent. stock) and amount of unfunded debt. And in 1868 the debt to have been £605,918,231, thus spewing the actual r-,,u.,cion of the debt during this period to have been not .29,102,990, as stated by Mr. Lambert, nor £37,819,000, as stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but only £21 7 16,027. Here is a blunder by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of above £14,000,000. This is a very serious _natter. Is Parliament and the country to be misled by misstatements of this sort ? Are members bringing for ward questions of the most transcendent and vital moment to be turned aside by the quotation of incorrect statistics It is th ' duty of the Government to see that statistics printed un ler its sanction are correct—incorrect statistics are very m •eh worse than useless—no informationis better than wrong Information. Speaking of the statistical abstract it would be a great convenience if, alongside the capital of the debt of each year were placed the gross annual charge, and the annual charge in respect of each species of debt. It is also to be ) regretted that the estimated capital on terminable an nuities is not carried back from 1854 to 1840 in the dupli cate reprinted abstract, as without this and the annual charge, it is impossible to compare the state of the debt at the various periods. Another reason why it is desirable to pay off the debt is that we should be better prepared for war. These are critical times, and no man knows when England may be called upon to buckle on her armour. Doubtless war is a great crime, but we are liable to have this crime com mitted upon us. How immeasurably better prepared for war should we be were we quit of the necessity of paying £26,000,000 in respect of the debt. From 1815 to 1834 an unreformed Parliament reduced the annual charge by four millions ; from that period to the present we have reduced it by only two-and-a-half millions. Had we, with more than doubly-augmented resources, gone on at the same rate, we might and ought to have further reduced the annual charge by ten or twelve millions. The fact of the debt being, in comparison with our re sources, less burdensome than it was fifty years ago, is in itself a strong reason way we should set about manfully to pay it off. Strenuous and decisive efforts to pay the debt would result in raising the credit of the nation still higher, which would tell most materially in its favour if we were compelled again to have recourse to loans during war. Another advantage that would attend decisive efforts to reduce the National Debt would be that the unpaid-off portion would quickly rise above par, whereupon, the annual charge of the whole might be reduced, by striking down the rate of interest. This occurred on several occa sions during the last century when the obligation to pay the Debt was acknowledged and acted upon. A large proportion of the Debt is held by persons, who purchase consols, because they are the safest and surest investment. A diminution of the rate of interest would scarcely affect the demand of persons for them. If I might venture to say so, the principles enunciated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in replying to Mr. Lambert, are surely opposed to the common sense and common honesty of the community. The right hon. gentleman actually took credit for the £9,000,000 spent on the Abyssinian expedition, £5,755,000 on fortifications, and £7,000,000 for the purchase of tele graphs, as payments made in " reduction of the amount of the Debt," implying, of course, that we might fairly have added these sums to the permanent Debt, and that, with justice, we might have burdened posterity with the payment of these amounts. Now, the Abyssinian expe dition was undertaken to accomplish a temporary, not a permanent object. The fortifications may, and probably will, be useless ten years hence, inasmuch as the art of war is varying and advancing every year. In any case they will doubtless need to be supplemented, and as to the telegraphs, some of the money is said to represent a job, and the plant will need constant renewal. To reckon such payments as payments made in reduction of the National Debt is what Sir John Lubbock calls " throw ing dust in the eyes of the nation." I venture to think that no English finance Minister ever before laid down a proposition so utterly indefensible. I happened to be sitting. underneath the gallery, and I felt that Mr. Pitt must be turning in hiegrave. My indignation knew no bounds, and I do not know to what lengths it might have transported me, but:suddenlyl was wrapt in a vision, and saw, as it.were, "gods ascending out of the earth.'' An old man came up, covered with a mantle, which I recognised to be the ancient mantle of the Finance Minis ters of England ; it shone with resplendent patriotism. The old man appeared to bear the lofty and severe fea tures of Pitt ; his lip curled with haughty and immea surable scorn, but the contempt expressed in his eyes was tempered by that pity which the Celestials feel for mere mortals. And the vision appeared to address the Chancellor of the Exchequer in winged accents, and said, " Why had thou disquieted me to bring me up ? " And the Chancellor of the Exchequer answered, " I am sore distressed, for this uncircumcised Philistine makes war against me. Therefore I have called - thee, that thou mayst make known unto me what I shall do." And the vision replied, "Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting. Return to thy ' Cave,' from whence thou camest out, or teach not the English people to forget that they are the sons of men whose heroic self-sacrifice and devotion to posterity maintained a contest against the world." I was astonished. The vision faded. I was again in the flesh, and lo 1 a London alderman was ad dressing the House. The prodigious tendency of the National Debt to expand and accumulate is perhaps its most alarming feature. If it should augment at the rate it has done during the last century, although we have had no lengthier periods of peace, a century hence it will amount to £1,500,000,000 ; but if future wars are to be carried on by loans, having regard to the experience of the United States and of Prussia and France, it is much more likely to amount to three or four thousand millions. The expenses of war each generation rise with fearful rapidity. The first year of the French war Mr. Pitt asked for 4l j millions, the.next year for 11 millions, and the next for 18 millions, and thus it went on year after year until the end of the war found the debt augmented by £569,000,000. Let us glance for a moment at what may be called the capacity of increase of the National Debt. During the nine years war terminated by the treaty of Ryswick in 1679 the average annual amount added to the debt was £2,606,455. During the eleven years of war ending with the Treaty of Utrecht, in 1713, the debt incurred annually was £3,250,060. In the nine years' war, closed by the Treaty of Aix la Chapelle in 1748, the yearly increase in the debt was £3,482,120. In the seven years' war, horn 1756 to the Peace of Paris in 1763, the annual addition to the debt was £9,129,039. During the disastrous seven years' war, ending with the loss of America by the Treaty of Versailles in 1783, the debt was annually augmented by £15,155,499; and, lastly, the twenty-two years through which the French war raged terminated by the Treaty of Vienna in 1815, the annual increase was £25,880,954. A glance at the calamitous catalogue will shew with what fatal rapidity rose the expense of each successive struggle. Thus, a century might touch the periods of two wars, the one conducted by the genius of a Marlborough, the other by the abilities of a Wellington. The one resplendent with the glories of Blenheim, the other illustrious with the splendour of Waterloo, in which the lofty valour of the sons emulated the heroic courage of the sires, and Phcenix like, the indomitable spirit of the father, awoke with redoubled ardour in the breasts of the children. But the picture has another aspect. The dignity of your honour increased, the brilliancy of your glory brightened ; but the price was a more extravagant expenditure of blood, and a debt augmented sixteenfold. Should we proceed at this rate, by the light of experience looking forward through the "vista of time, a century hence while rushing to victory, we may be increasing our debt by two hundred millions a year. Let us now see the progress that:has been made in liquidation. In the peace of 1697 the debt paid off amounted to £5,121,041, at the rate of £1,220,260 per annum. In the twenty-six years of peace from 1713 the the sum liquidated was £4,190,734 giving a yearly average of £161,128. In the peace of eight years from 1748 ac cording to Adam Smith, Mr. Pelham paid off £6,000,000, being at the yearly rate of £857,000. During the peace of 1763, which lasted twelve years, £10,281,796 was paid, giving an annual rate of £856,816. During the peace of 1783, which lasted ten years the amount liquidated was £5,732,993, being an annual average of £573,299. From 1815 to 1834 £88,000,000 being nearly £5,000,000 a year, and from 1834 to the present period the sum paid off has been nothing, as the debt in 1834 stood at £773,000,000, whereas it is now £800,681,428, shewing an increase and not a diminution. Thus it appears that the progress of liquidation has been as slow as the accumulation has been rapid. This consideration adds the utmost force to the warning uttered by the select committee of 1828, and which was adverted to in the former article. Adam Smith says : " The practice of funding has gradually enfeebled every State which has adopted it. The Italian Republics seem to have begun it. Genoa and Venice, the only two remaining which can pretend to an independent existence, have both been enfeebled by it. Spain seems to have learned the practice from the Italian Republics, and it has in proportion to its natural strength been still more enfeebled. The debts of Spain are of very old standing. It was deeply in debt before the end of the sixteenth century, about 100 years before England owed a shilling. France, notwithstanding all its natural re sources, languishes under an oppreskive load of the same kind. The Republics of the United Provinces are as much enfeebled by its debts as either Greece or Venice. " " Is it likely that in Great Britain alone a practice which has brought either weakness or dissolution into every other country, should prove altogether innocent ?" The wisdom of Adam Smith seems justified by the sub sequent events—before that century closed the Italian Republics, the dazzling lights of the dark ages, were ex tinguished for ever. The Queen of the Adriatic sunk without the semblance of a struggle into insignificant servitude—the French Revolution was precipitated by financial embarrassment—Spain totters on with increased debility—Holland has sank into utter insignificance, although she once disputed the Empire of the Ocean with England. The debt of Holland is enormous. A few years ago she owed 100 millions which, with the exception of our own debt and that of France and Austria, was the largest in Europe. The heavy taxation necessary to pay the interest of this debt has diminished the rate of profit, driven capital abroad, and reduced Holland to that sta tionary state which is the real cause of its decline. But of late Holland has been making the most strenuous efforts to pay her debt, and has made a very considerable im pression upon it. Such has been the injurious influence exerted by debt on other countries. What disastrous destiny her debt may accomplish for England, remains in the womb of time. SUN, LONDON, TITES_DAY, OCTOBER 25, 1870. BISMARCK OUTWITTED. It is reparted in Russia that during a recent conference between Bismarck and Prince Gortschakoff, the former intimated that he considered it advisable to discontinue the use of the French language in carrying on diplomatic correspondence. Fur some time past ,French has been selected as the most convenient mode of communication, because it is a language in general use, and also the most clear in expression. Gortschakoff replied that he had found this custom established when he entered on his diplomatic career, that he recognised its utility, and did not desire a change to take place. He thought no more of it, but some time afterwards he received a long dispatch from Berlin in the German language. Gorts chakoff, on the suggestion of the hereditary prince, replied by a still longer dispatch written in Russian. Bis marck, greatly disappointed, was obliged to come back to the French. In Berlin alone the war has made /4,000 widows and 29,000 orphans. Angel de Miranda, Prior's friend, the the editor of Le Gaitlois, has been arrested near Versailles. Von der Tann lost heavily in both engagements at and near Orleans—in the second more severely than in the first. In accordance with military orders, the inundation around Cambrai has for several days past been progress ing, and the felling of trees and other means of defence are being actively carried on. Deserters are still pouring out of Metz, haggard, starved, and demoralized. The report that Bazaine was shot when attempting to quell a Republican manifestation is very general among the deserters. The French troops in Metz are ripping open their palliasses for straw, which is given as forage to the few horses that remain ; the cavalry are dismounted, and act as infantry; and the allowance of meal has been fear fully reduced. The French poachers make the best Freeshooters. In the Forest of Orleans all the poachers for ten leagues round united to form a special corps. They felt that they were defending their own property. The Vossische Gazette of Berlin has been seized this week on account of an article speculating as to the reasons of the susceptibility the Prussian Government has shewn respecting the Belgian press. • So great is the scarcity of salt in Metz, says a German paper, that when,recently, a German soldier was captured with a small quantity of it in his bread-bag, the news spread like wildfire, even officers of high rank begging for a pinch of the precious article. The enormous works of defence at Valenciennes, which have been in progress since the commencement of the war, have been completed and inspected. Formidable cannon have been mounted; the town has been fully supplied with ammunition, and will be defended by the Garde Nationale and GardeMobile. It is reported at Tours that the principal conditions of peace are already agreed to. Prussia is to renounce an increase of territory, and receive Luxembourg. A popular manifestation took place at Luxembourg on Satuday as a protest against the annexation of the Duchy to Prussia. " Isolated acts of hostility," says a correspondent of the Allgenzeine Zeitung, "are continually occuring from time to time on the part of the people of Strasburg against our troops, and only a few days ago three men were shot. I have already told you that some few Zouaves, Turcos, and soldiers of the line were secreted in some of the houses, but active search is now being made for them." With respect to the alleged London banking account of the French Emperor, Messrs. Baring Brothers write : " With reference to the various statements which have appeared in the public prints as to the investments of money said to have been made by our firm for account of the Emperor of the French, or as to stocks and property said to be held by us for his account, we deem it right to state, through the medium of your journal, that at no time have we made investments for account of the Emperor, and that we do not hold any stocks or objects of value for his account." The correspondent of the Baltic Gazette, dating Swine munde, the 19th lust, reports that :—" An English steamer, the Claremont, which has just arrived here from Newcastle, reports that on Saturday morning, when about 70 or 80 miles west of Hantsholm, they were sum moned by a shot from a French steam yacht to heave to, and their papers were overhauled by a French officer, who told the captain that three days previously they had captured and taken into Dunkerque three North German steamers. Unfortunately the captain omitted to take note of the names of the three steamers, but he remembers that one of them was laden with about 1,200 tons of coals." A lady who visited the Empress Eugenie writes : " The Empress was, contrary to my expectation, looking well and cheerful. Her conversation about France was hopeful. She evidently believes that the majority of the French people still look upon her husband as their lawful ruler. The Empress loves France more than she loves power, and anyone who will aid in saving France from Prussia she looks upon as her friend, and she will never be found plotting against him, be he Imperialist or Re publican." The rest of the letter is taken up with a description of what the Empress and various personages about her wore. The Italian journals are disputing as to the assistance which Garibaldi has lent to France. It appears from the explanations entered into, that Garibaldi has not in this instance the support of the Radical party. The Ri forma declares that in his lash resolve, Garibaldi had not the consent of his friends. The Italia says that it is idle to think the Italian Government can restore Nice to Italy as the reward for Garibaldi's assistance to France; but at the same time declares it to be most inconsistent on the part of the Ri forma and its friends, to object to an arrangement which would be so advantageous to Italy as the restoration of Nice. The only way to justify the declaration of the Rtforma, is to suppose that it would rather receive Nice as a gift from Prussia, than see it restored to France, thanks to the exertions of Garibaldi. General von der Tann has issued a proclamation to the inhabitants of Orleans. The following extract shews that the document has some political significance :—" Your late Government declared war against Germany. Never was a declaration of war more frivolous. The German armies could do nothing else than reply to it by crossing the frontier. Another Government succeeded. It was hoped that it would restore peace. It has done nothing of the kind. And why ? It feared to render itself impos sible, and under the pretence that the conditions proposed by the German army were not acceptable, it preferred to continue a war which can only lead to the ruin of France. And what are the conditions of the victorious army which it was deemed impossible to accept ? The restitution of provinces which belonged to Germany, and in which the German language still prevails, in the towns as well as in the country—viz., Alsace and German Lorraine. Is this claim an exaggerated one? What claims would victorious France have made?" THE FREE SHOOTERS.—The French free shooters have been put under the orders of the Minister of War, a measure which has been generally approved and which was taken with the double object of giving them a recog nised position as belligerents, and of uniting their move ments with those of the regular army. It was feared the greater restrictions thus put on the free shooters would diminish their spirit, but it has not done so. Hitherto these irregular troops have been the most successful of the French forces. They were of great service in the interval between the disorganisation of the first armies which took the field, and the raising and training of the new levies. The record of two days' performances by the Franc-Tireurs shows how persistently they harass the Prussian forces. At St. Laurent-de-Caux, on the Orleans road, a company overtook and routed two reconnaisances of the enemy. After the affair in Fontainebleau the Free-shooters of Paris, assisted by the National Guard, relieved Melun, where the French Administration was consequently able to re-enter. The Free-shooters held the enemy in check for several days before Chateauduu. In the Vosges they have inflicted serious losses on the Prussians. Six thou sand of them re-oocupied Mulhouse and organised a resistance there, with the aid of the Mobiles. Their services in delaying the inenay's advance are of great advantage to the Frenrn. THE \VAR. THE SIEGE OF PARIS. (BY BALLOON MAIL.) PARIS, OCT. IC. A somewhat questionable discovery has been made near Lagny. The copy of a report to the King of Prussia has been found in the locality. It proposes to isolate Paris so that the country will group itself round another centre, to place Napoleon 111. at the head of the provincialgroups and to treat with him and the province for an indemnity in kind. Taking the last official statistics of the empire as a basis, the indemnity would amount to 4 million cattle, 10 million sheep, 1 million horses, donkeys, or mules, 50 million hectolitres of corn, 10 million hectolitres of wine, 1 million hectolitres alcohol and brandy. The value of this indemnity would be about 4000 millions, and represent from 20 to 22 per cent of the agricultural reserves in the country. The delivery of this indemnity could be effected within a month. Next, to treat separately with Paris for 1,000 millions in money, siege of Paris to be raised as soon as the indemnity be paid, and one-fourth of that to be furnished by the provinces be delivered. Prussian troops to retain possession of Alsace and Lorraine until the whole indemnity be delivered, which could be done in a month or five weeks This is all very interesting, but, is it true? The contents of the document are rather too good to be genuine. The Germans want much more than a mere indemnity. We have been enlivened by a small row on the subject of news. There has lately been an incursion of visitors into the city, and the Parisians aro alarmed at the sign. General Burnside has been through the lines here, and held conversations with Jules Favre ; and Colonel Lyndsay entered on the 13th. The Parisians believe that the Government would not nego tiate unless the position had become more unfavourable, and they, therefore, look upon these pourparlers as a simple indication that some fresh disaster has occurred. Now it happens that the Government, almost for the first time since the investment, received news three days ago, and, moreover, somebody connected with La V6ritd ascertained that such was the case. In fact, Colonel Lyndsay brought with him on the 13th a copy of the Standard and other papers. Yesterday, La Write called upon the Government to give the public the benefit of this intelligence. Had they really received any papers, and yet suppressed the contents? Was it true that the true that the Red Republic had been proclaimed at Lyons. Was it true that an armistice had been proposed? Was it, &c., &c. The Government at first appeared disposed to disregard these inquiries, but to-day the Journal ()Aid publishes extracts from the Standard and other English papers, as well as the French pro. vincial papers. The whole affair, both the re ceipt of the news, and the news itself, is a muddle and a mystery. The Government affirm that they received the Standard, but did not publish it because it was notoriously hostile to France, and its news bore the marks of prejudice. But how about the extracts in the provincial papers which appear to-day ? And, moreover, if it be really the Standard that is meant, it h notorious that the London Conservative journal is most favourable, and, not hostile, to France. It is even fanatical in its devotion to this country. If it contains news favourable to the Germans, we may be sure that it has not been inserted through prejudice. With respect to the intelligence itself, we are informed that the French have thoroughly beaten the Prussians near Orleans, whereas from other sources comes the news that the Prussians have, with equal thoroughness, beaten the French. Similar trouble do we experience on the subject of peace or an armistice. Whether General Burnside has, or has not, brought a letter from Couut Bismarck about peace, whether Favre has or has not made further overtures, are matters concerning which the most lively incertitude reigns. The general aspect of the city remains as before. The siege is marked by few incidents, and altogether is becom. ing dull. The plan of General Trochu is to wait until the troops get in really good condition before attempt ing any very serious operations, and this object is being rapidly attained. Every day the men become more and more soldierly, nor does the confinement and inaction of the siege at all affect their discipline prejudicially. They are kept well in hand, and every day gain more and more of that machine-like obedience, which is the characteristic of the veteran regular. The National Guards do not all im prove. Some of them are in fact tired of the business, but there is a large residuum which will soon be ready for mobilization. The danger of being starved out is the real one. That consummation must come at the end of no very long period, and already is the diminution of rations so considerable as to be the reverse of agreeable. With abundance of food the Germans could never, many ex cellent judges firmly believe, capture this city. The announcement that Garibaldi is at Tours is received with enthusiasm. Many of the citizens having escaped service in the National Guard, notices have been issued calling on all not enrolled to appear. They will be formed into veteran corps, for service in their arrondissements. A petition to the Government is in course of signature by the Garde Mobile, demanding the confiscation of the propertybelonging,to:the Bonaparte family, and that of the Church, and that all ecclesiastics between the ages of 22 and 25 be forced to enter the Garde Mobile, as also the Aires of every religious order. A NATIONAL GUARD'S EXPERIENCE. A letter in the Nord, dated the 15th instant, says : " We have been now for a month blockaded, and almost without news from the outside. The time is very long, and provisions begin to decrease. God knows how long it may yet last ! Our principal occupation is at this moment the service in the National Guard—a compulsory duty, which is divided as follows : " From seven to nine in the morning, firing practice and bayonet exercise, and duty on the ramparts every five days, without mentioning fatigue duties inside the walls from time to time. Nothing can be more amusing than to see the detachments which do duty on the ramparts. As the duration of the service is twenty-six hours, each company is provided, in the character of a full train, with a vehicle for the transport of baggage and of the canteen. The Guards, who do not make use of the canteen, carry provisions. For the rest horseflesh forms the basis of our meals. Uniform is not absolutely de rigueur, but the men have nevertheless a martial aspect, which prevents the variety of costume from being noted. The greatest variety exists in the coverings of the feet, ranging from high boots a recuyer to cloth gaiters and laced shoes. The arms are not more uniform, consisting of chassepots, fusils a tabatUre, and carbines of Delvigne : but all the arms are in good condition, and the Government may reckon with certinty upon the National Guard for the defence of the ramparts. I somewhat neglect the canteen, preferring to take with me provisions which I club with a friend of mine and with the proprie tor of one of the great restaurants of the boulevards, whose contingent is the less likely to be despised In that rations are fixed at 200 grammes a head, and for six meals the fillet of horse become h , almost invisible. As to the nights of duty they must be spent under the tent upon straw, which is not renewed every morning, and the dogs •of the neighbourhood are not kept off as carefully as they might be." THE FRENCH ARTILLERY. The Germans frequently volunteer the information that the fire of the artillery in the French forts does very little harm, but there is a good deal of testimony to the opposite offered. Dr. Russell says that the fire of the forts is at times very heavy if not very' destructive. It demolishes incipient earthworks. Another Times corres pondent, writing from within Paris, says :—Still the Ger mans are as far as ever from an entrance into Paris, if that is to depend upon their attacks. W e heard wonders of what they were to do, but, literally, they have done nothing. They have not been able to erect a single battery against the outlying forts. As fast as their batteries have been erected they have been knocked to pieces by the unerring fire of the forts—knocked to pieces before the guns in them could be brought to bear upon the points of attack with anything like accuracy. The ground about Paris is measured almost to a centimetre. The gunner in the forts may be the greatest fool in the world, but he cannot miss the mark if he will only look at his map and read the numbers right. In illustration of this it may be stated that there was a great fog here on the morning of Thursday last. Under cover of this, the Germans went hard to work at a battery which they were preparing in the neighbourhood of Montretout. The fort of Mont-Val6rien opened fire upon them in the midst of the fog; it was blind firing from the map, but it put an end to their work, and must have rather surprised them. Nearly every day they are unmasking some new battery, and nearly every day it is destroyed. THE GERMAN ARMY. It is a most fortunate thing, says the Versailles corre spondent of the Cologne Gazette, that the several regiments are again in a pretty strong condition as regards numbers, and contain, nearly all of them, more men under arms than they had at the commencement of September. Apparently our losses seem to have been most extraordinarily heavy at Weissemburg, Woerth, Spicherenberg, before Saarbrucken, and on the 14th August before Metz, on the 16th at Rezonville, and on the 18th at Gravelotte, and in consequence of which many regiments had more than one half, and some indeed two-thirds, of their men put hors de combat. Fortunately, however, there were comparatively very many men only slightly wounded. Most of our men were wounded by ehassepot bullets fired at long ranges, and thus the velocity of the bullet was considerably lessened, and few bones were broken, the bullets only imbedding themselves in the flesh. In comparison the wound in flicted in 1866 by the Austrian conical bullets and grapeshot were far more dangerous and mortal than the case with those wrought by the chassepot bullets. Consequently, within the last few weeks many soldiers and, comparatively speaking, far more officers, who have recovered from their wounds received at Weissemburg and Woerth, and on the 14th, 16th and 18th August, have returned to their former positions in the army. Many an officer may yet be seen with his arm in a sling or his face plastered up, or walking slowly, supported by a stick; but yet their martial zeal is such that these obstacles do not prevent them from taking their post amongst the troops and doing their duty with renewed energy and vigour. The want of superior officers which reigned from the middle of August to the Middle of September, when subalterns had to command whole companies and captains whole battalions, is now entirely changed. It is stated that the burning of St. Cloud was the result of an accident. Some shells were inaccurately fired from Mont Valtrien. The journal called the National Assembly, which was suppressed by decree about 15 years ago, is about to re appear. The Swabtan Mercury states that on the 10th instant the whole of the German allied troops before Paris con secrated one day's pay, amounting to 500,000 thalers, to the Widow and Orphan Funt. Only four rooms in St. Cloud were occupied by half a company of German soldiers, placed there to protect the treasures of this historical monument of architecture. When the bombardment commenced the troops were im mediately withdrawn, without any accident having oc curred. When Gambetta landed in his balloon, he sent a pigeon to Paris. His message was :—"Everywhere the people are rising ; the Government of the National Defence is universally acclaimed." . M. Edmond Adams, who has been appointed Prefect of Police in place of M. Kdratry, is the former secretary general of the Mayor of Paris in 1848, and more recently secretary-general of the Discount Bank. This nomination is looked upon as a temporary one, because the prefecture of Police is to be abolished. At the Folies Bergeres, in Paris, there has been a demonstration against the Princes of the Orleans family This movement has significance, as the Folies Bergeres is the rendezvous of the Moderate, rather than of the Red Republicans. Louis Blanc has written to the Rappel, saying he will only stand for the municipal elections when the Govern ment sanctions them, as the first consideration is to avoid dissensions. Victor Hugo, he believes, will do the same. Ass's flesh is said by those in Paris who have tried it to be very delicate food. It is cheap, too, and sells for not more than fourpence a pound. Unfortunately the supply of asses is not great, for there are no costermongers in the city, and very few animals are kept for children to ride upon. A young lady, sister of two National Guards, reports that she is very happy in Paris. She lives close to the Luxembourg gardens, and she is assured there is no dan ger of Prussian shells falling in that quarter. She has learnt to cook horseflesh so as to make it a most attrac tive dish ; her brothers, when they come home from duty on the ramparts, devour it voraciously, and she herself has come to like it very much. At Paris the other day some Prussians and Bavarians took a gun. The Prussians placed their colours upon the gun; the Bavarians claimed to have equal rights to the gun, and demanded that the Bavarian colours should also be placed upon it, or a black-red and golden flag, in order to chew their mutual conquest. Some slight dispute took place, and the matter was submitted to the decision of the superior officer in command, who ordered that no flag should be planted upon the gun, and thus both parties appeared satisfied. THE FIGHT AT CHATEAUDUN. The force engaged at Chateaudun is variously estimated, some putting the number of Germans at 5,000, and others at 7,000 ; but all agree that the contest was most gal lantly maintained on the part of the French. The National Guards fought capitally, though armed only with very inferior muskets against the artillery of the Germans. Even the women and children aided in the defence, stoning the enemy from the windows of the houses. The Germans lost heavily, and so did the gallant defenders. The Paris Freeshooters, who were in the town lost 200 men and their cantiniere, a pretty blonde, who was killed by a ball in the chest whilst carrying muni tions to the combatants. The Nantes Freeshooters lost thirty men out of 116, and those of Cannes fifteen out of sixty-two. As to the National Guard of Chateaudun itself, it was greatly cut up, and lost its commander. The battle was fought in this wise : The Germans, with a considerable force of all arms, attacked Chateaudun at midday, and were met by the irregulars behind barricades. Up to six in the evening the Prus sians had gained no advantage. At that hour the Prussians succeeded in forcing their way through some houses and taking one of the barricades in the rear. The combat continued in the streets, but the enemy forced the Place de L'Hotel de Ville. The resistance still con tinued, and at nine o'clock the defenders made a vigorous effort and drove the Prussians from the place. They then collected the remains of their forces, and at ten o'clock beat an orderly retreat. VERDUN BOMBARDED. Full details of the bombardment of Verdun, which has now begun in good earnest, are given by the special cor respondent of the Cologne Gazette. On the 11th instant the Prussians were ordered to take possession of the vari ous villages and farm buildings in the immediate vicinity of the fortress, and to occupy them. They were directed, l if necessary, to take these places by storm. One of these positions, named Regret, had long been an apple of dis cord, but when the Prussians advanced boldly upon it, the defenders made a hasty andundignified retreat. Some of them were not quick enough to escape, and were captured. At Thierville, another village on the outskirts, the struggle was harder, and there was a good deal of firing, the guns of the fortress supporting the resistance of the place. But the orders were to take it, and it was taken. Other villages and large farms were taken and some on the right bank of the Meuse were destroyed by fire. During the night batteries were erected, and the rough stormy weather favoured the Prussian labours at the earthworks, by which they designed to bring their guns to bear on the fortress. They succeeded in getting them close to the town, and 48 iron mouths formed a deadly circle round Verdun. A mortar battery is only 800 yards from the walls. At one of these batteries several French 24-pounders captured at Toul were in use. The cannonade, according to a later account, proceeds with great vigour, and the town was fired in several places. "We are," says the correspon dent of the Cologne Gazette on the 14th, " looking forward with the greatest anxiety as to the effects that will be caused by our newly-erected battery of heavyguns. General Marmier, who commanded in Verdun when Prince George of Saxony summoned him to surrender on the 24th of August, gave the vaunting response that he would defend the town as long as one stone remained upon the other, and that he considered it his duty rather to be buried beneath the ruins of the town than consent to its surrender. Perhaps this gentleman or General Guerin, who was at the time ill, but who has since resumed the command, will change their opinions after some days' parley with the powerful voices of our heavy siege guns." The town of Chalons is now transformed into a vast park, in which all the cannon captured by the Prussians at Strasburg, Toul, Marsal, and Sedan are gathered. The chief depot of the Prussian prizes is Bar-le-Due, where the immense supplies they have obtained by their requi sitions in the East are heaped up in the railway stations, so that they may be rapidly transmitted from one place to another. THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS. A SIGNIFICANT CONVERSATION.. Public opinion in France is undoubtedly tending in th e direction of peace, and a very significant incident is re" ported from Tours. M. Grevy presented himself to 3 , 1. Gambetta, accompanied by several of the former deputies of the Left and Left Centre parties, and bearing the written authority of some sixty others of the same party, and a good many prominent Republicans. The substance of M. Grevy's mission was as follows :—France, he said, wants peace, and Germany wishes for it. Bismarck does not refuse to entertain the thought, but he will only treat with a regular Government, whic h he does not consider the existing Ministry in France whs. Even should Bismarck consent to acknowledge them, the Government of National Defence could not accept his conditions, from the circumstances of their elevation to power. "We are, therefore," urged M. Gr6vy, "in a dilemma from which there is only one means of escape which is to summon a national assembly which shall esta blish a legitimate Government with which Prussia can treat." The delegates further urged that no better terms could be obtained in a month hende than now, but in another month thousands more men would have perished/ and France would be still more impoverished . To obtain the support of Europe it is necessary for Francs to secure the recognition of her Government by the great Powers, and she must no longer deceive herself." This movement on the part of AL Grevy and his colleagues is likely to produce important consequences. THE FRENCH PRESS ON PEACE. The Constitutionnel says that the national ideas are too advanced to make their honour depend on some kilometres of frontier or some millions of inhabitants. M. Jules Favre takes a higher tone, and rests his objection to the cession of Alsace and Lorraine on the refusal to alloy , populations tq decide on their destiny. Peace negotiation s have become with the French Government more a ques tion of political morality than of safety. At the same time Prussia is not likely to change her views at a time when their furtherance may serve her interests. If the war has caused serious distress in France, the Constitution' net rejoices that the country is able to make so firm stand against the encroachments of the enemy. The Patrie considers what France ought to do in the "event of mediation being offered, and thinks no opposition should be made if the proposed conditions of peace are honourable, and impose no humiliating concessions . France holds a higher position at present than she did on the morrow of the capitulation of Sedan, for she has the right to say that she has gloriously continued the struggle , and by the defence of Paris has removed the prestige that has surrounded the King of Prussia through his suceessive victories. Europe may treat of peace, then, but first of all let it be remembered that France does not ask for peace : but she may, perhaps, accept it. Speaking of the inter vention of foreign Powers, the Patrie says that England may probably render some assistance to the French in the way of mediation, and that a coolness seems to exis t between the Cabinet of St. James and the head-quarte rs at Versailles. The recent complaint, which the Prussian Government have made against the Belgian press, are also an indirect attack on England, who i s the protector of Belgium, and the upholder of the rights of the press. At any rate the English must recognise the dangerous symptoms of German absolutism which threaten them in the future no less than their allies, and these considerations must have some weight in the councils of Europe. The Siecle asks how much longer they are going to wait for foreign intervention instead of resolving to sav e themselves. One of the causes of the present disasters has been the expectation that other nations would come to the assistance of France. England, Austria, Russia, and America have been alternately cited as ready to but nothing has been done. It must be seen that agree ment is impossible between France, who will not destroy herself, and Prussia, who forces a shameful peace 11Ple ° her. The Si&le believes that a glorious peace is the only one possible, and that the peace must be conquered, while Germany will repent having refused the terms which were offered to her. The Journal d'lndre et Loire says that the dismantling of their fortresses of Alsace and Lorraine. and the wile' tive guarantee of the Powers to prevent the renewal of the war between the belligerents, are the chief pointe.e f , the proposition which England dares to inaugurate, an which stands a good chance of being refused. It declaim that such a proposal must be discussed with arms in th e hand, and not diplomatically or in writing. The only way to settle affairs will be to make a great national effort , and while acknowledging the goodwill of the severa l Powers in seeking to facilitate the conclusion of peace , the French people must rely upon themselves alone to settle the conditions of a peace which so greatly concert their interests and honour. THE OCCUPATION OF ORLEANS. The Prussians hold Orleans, and maintain a stern con trol over the inhabitants. The Prefect, M. Pereira, is a prisoner in his own rooms. General von der Tann, hearing that he had refused to blow up the bridge of the Loire, exclaimed that he was a sensible man, for the destruction of these works of art was useles s when the Prussians could throw a bridge over any riv e i r in three hours' time. Some French soldiers who b e ' escaped from the struggle of the night before took refuge in some of the houses in Orleans. The Prussians hearing this demanded their surrender, but their he s° were unwilling to yield them. The point was settled by the fugitives giving themselves up, but the Prussians se b4 sequently searched all the private houses and e'en the religious establishments to be sure there were no In° r : refugees. The wounded are distributed througho ut the town, and the Bishop's house is full e l them, the prelate tending the sufferers with th e greatest care. The railway station is turned into an ambulance accommodating 500. An interesting anecdote in which Mgr. Dupanloup plays a prominent part, occurred in a village just .by the gates of Orleans. 2 " the Prussians were passing through it in the dark some shots were fired, and wounded several soldiers. village was surrounded, and the General, summoning the cure, asked him, as a man of honour, whether the label'', tants had any guns in their possession. The cure replied that they had had them, but did 114 then possess them. The P russ i ans , wishing te make sure, instituted a search, and found fifty guns hid in the church, under the alta r , p ro b a bly a t the eur d ° instigation. The General ordered fifty inhabitants of te a village to be arrested and taken to Orleans for execution 011 the morrow. Among them were an old man, and his son, a youth of 10, who were accused of having fired on th e Prussians. Mgr. Dupanloup, the bishop, hearing of the affair, sent an impassioned appeal to the Prussir_ general, who, after reading it, went to the barraeeP where the prisoners were detained, and havi n g' summoned them before him, said impressively, " 11. , ° , 11 deserved death, and military justice sentenced you to PI; but I pardon you. Only remember always that you 1 : 4 „ your lives to your bishop." Mgr. Dupanloup, in fact , : , treated with the greatest deference by the Bavarian office"' who occupy the town, who respect his European repo ..t tion, and are grateful to him for the eloquence and abiu ll with which he defended the views of the German epistle' pate in the council It is reported by the Siecle that General Burnside O ld M. Jules Favre that Prussia would consent to mediates Alsace and Lorraine, which for ten years would " v exempt from the conscription. It would hope during period to succeed in governing the provinces. C o " - Bismarck also demonds an indemnity of 280,000,00 0 - [ADVERTISEMENT.]—HoIIoway's Pills. —Weak Storas c rg . —The wisest cannot enumerate a quarter of the distress! symptoms arising from enfeebled digestion, all of w„, lll ,, A c i may be readily dispelled by these admirable Pills. 1 - I. `" remove all unpleasant tastes from the mouth, flatulency' and constipation. Holloway's Pills rouse the stonocni liver, and every other organ, helping digestion to test healthy tone which fully enables it to convert all we 0 and drink to the nourishment of our bodies. Hence Pills are the surest strengtheners, and the surest rec t o r in nervousness, wasting, and chronic debil.tYj Holloway's Pills are infallible remedies for iraP 3 ' r e e e . appetite, eructations, and a. multitude of other dis 3 g r of able symptoms which render miserable_ the lives thousands: These Pills are approved by all classes. BIRTHS. o f On the 20th inst, at Herne Villa, St. Albans, the INA- e Thomas Kent, of a son. a rk, On the 22nd inst. at 22a, Sussex-square, Hyde - P the wife of H. B. Browning, Esq., of a son. MARRIAGES. On the 20th inst., William Henry Harlow, of Sl °u ' to Virtue Louisa, daughter of Thomas Collins, Sydenham House, near Bridgewater. On the 20th inst. , at Old Lambeth Church, Mr. k aa t Warboys, of Kentish-town to Charlotte , daughter of George Samuel Burrows, Esq., of off. road, Wansworth-road. DEATHS. On the 21st inst., at Folkestone, General C. J. J. A.rbuthll44' aged 71. told On the 23d inst., at his residence, 1, Albert-road , - Ford, Bow, London, Mr. William Orton, after a sever° and trying illness. He has left many true and sorror inn friends behind. London : Printed by GIDEON ACLAND BOYC E, of t No. 112, Strand, Printer and Published by of the THE SUN Office, No. 112, Strand, in the Precinct of t Savoy, in the County of Middlesex.. Tuesday, October 25, 1870. I IN , t In , ve. --:..' t oth, -___, 1111 S i 04, log e gi fo r Ea,