The Sun. — London, England, 1828-06-11 00:00:00

)tgant t MOW veldt aser (If r Rt lade 'lt real• for ti ly to id IWO" the Go" tentiov. mod i i aupe'" t of tbe its e°"' 1 in toy 001111 Nrseention so arbitrary and extensive as that carried on again s t the P ro t es t ants . Wi t h ou t i nqu i r y, w ith ou t t r i a l, t Mere rumour, between 2;000' and : 3,000--in : 3,000--in point as u of and education the _most respectable people in the ' - ' un trY—were included by name in one general proscrip tion, Their property was confiscated, and themselises (riged tQ for their lieu. I do not mean to say that ett Net in which-that was done exists so strongly new ; t he opportunity recurred to cause its repetition, but iu. if entioa itanerely as what they last did when in possession ? t- PoWer. Wh e n I un i te t hi s i n my own m i n d w ith that "teln imrate spirit which. has been displayed, and the bitter a ": . cli seems to prevail .at the present time in that f •: nt rY,. I think that, at the least, there is good ground Patitiug, for deliberating, before we again put them in P°ase asion of power without security against its abuse. (Rear, hear.) Do we find that the spirit of the Catholic ' c, o .elig „ i°4 is considered to he changed in the countries of the wh ``auent ? In the country most near to us,. we find those ° are th e grliteat supporters of civil liberty, and who , i r e the he means of judging the' Catholic's, watching I. ,: e° : Movements with . the . greate,t circumspection . and sus .,„,,"H• bees not this justify me in saying that:we must pro 't-"" with th e greatest caution in throwing open our Protes- C onatitution to the Catholics? They say they will not as seeuritiea because th will not'. condescend to treat l '"'• My Lea ti it is only he other day, that a periodical 9, 14 :7's call e d th e Calltohe Journal, which was taken in by kuociatien, having mentioned the subject of securi- LT , Was for this, on the motion of Mr. O'Connell, exitel t-(Cheers.) Recently, too, at a public meeting, when di Propoiition of atettrities was made, it was met with in- . t °a tiori and scorn. That, my Lords, is the present t i'" arid temper which prevails throughunt.lreland. On Pos ground s it is, my Lords, I' cannot consent any pro it. mn like the present, as I do not 'conceive it will at t,},tn the object it has in view. I certainly cannot see how i, eo 'onositi on o f the Noble M a rquis is likely to terminate 1 ia ta Y beneficial results. My Lords, in what I have said Psendeavoured to fulfil-the pledge which I originally l' s ' a el s Your Lordshiptr; hive endeavoured, with as much 4 „Vmtnass and precision as I was able to apply to the - e l e ct, to st a te the pounds on which I felt I could not tam e ha the proposition of the Noble Marquis. I cer -0.0-4Y Cheersat we are in a situation of great difficulty— , ,ad front the Opposition Benchea)a-and I must ..,, n I I do not see my way out of it.—(Continued cheers) it s a aY it without hesitation ar reserve ; but this I feel, ' s ' we are not likely to diminish the difficulty by assent to th e proposition of the Noble Marquis.---(llear, illy Lords, the proposition; practically considered, Fti at which I stated, au admission of the Catholics to all c m, and a patticipation, ofthe potver of this Protestant u gdotn. Do you believe, niy - Lordi, if this proposition in a cceded to, tranquillity will ensue? Do you believe, te at the object of this motion will be accomplished'? Can t "op short in our concessions? If what is now required be ),„, : 44 'd, can we withhold that which, in a short time, would tufallibly demanded ? Little do thoae who think 80 kllOgl r i4t , l he spirit of the Roman Catholic religion. It desires g'ug but to aggrandize itself - at the expense of other i i Z!hes. If we now grant this, on the pr i n cipl e tran ttitlizine Ireland, all that will be necessary to extort every g else from us, will be to say, tranquillity does not t 4, giv e us Inure or it s h a ll no t ex i s t. I n 1778, when ti Penal Laws were repealed; nothing for some timelvas wit r 4 l4 of but th e g r atitud e of Ir e l a nd, and the tranquillity Which she was about to be blessed. sllut shortly, nay 4 41 ”, new demands were made, and political power was for. In the year 1792, the Catholic Board, a body L li ar to th e present Aasociatism, which. was sitting in pt : 4l ia, constituted itself . a Catholic Parliament, for the e s t ,Pal s e of enforcing their new demands....lf. the Roman 7alics were to soy Unit. they would be satisfied with the t;, t _ le ci , sions now demanded, we should. only need to look at history of the past to Itnow that wenaight justly enter t44 ) t .ofarif distrustthe. Beyond that, it is ia the very na 'e)/ the ceri On with nsupon this subject, i e, 8 ntiona n t with the yf,lo-e cystaeter. of the Roman Ca . at reli g i on , to b e sa ti s fi e d with n o thi ng. s h or t o f predo -I'l44'4'e. But, my Lords, the Roman Catholics. of Ire before these concessions even are made, almost tell la h ea t c r rais that they are merely.preliwitiary. (Hear, hear, .) A Right Rev, Prehtte, .who spoke last night, re -‘1.(1 to the writings.a. the,Bishop of Kildare as evidence : 4 1 the real sentitnents,of h e Catholics. if, my. Lords, I o antlered Dr. ll,oyle. only as au . iudividual speaking. his I 'll sentiments, uttering only the dictates of his own mind, L i :f 4 suld p a y but little attention to .hits. But when I see 1. 4 : supported by every political society in Irelantl, and tit ed up to as the guide and director of the whole Ca -144! body of that country, I cannot but conclude that he resilks the sentiments of all. And what is his language, a Lords, on the subject of Emancipation ? He tells us I,l,liWain language . that the- delnaufaU of the Protestant fL reh Establishment Is at had, and distinctly announces /1.44 t thhough concession may be Medi, it snttettmly be re -4:04(44_, the road to ulterior measures. And, my Lords, LL. Q , 4144, to him , the coadjutor Bishop of Killaloe, tells 4, 4 ' 11 the only barrier to tranquillity in Ireland, the Pro ding Establishment, must be removed. I should only gust y o ur Lordships were I to repeat even a portion of p 4, ,mtter vituperation incessantly-poured out against. the Chureli—ied this, not only by the Catholic 'ration, but by every Catholic meeting in the country. a i lhltadihood and malignity of that body against the Pro ,. ,7,, Eatablishmeut past at defiance all ordinary rules of ll ' i s ",,, taa Y; and the language now had by the Dignitaries of a itri Usurch is in the highest degree insulting. Where for s4 1 Y it used to be the Titular Bishop of such a place, it is /11„ 14 ;,theProtestant Rector of such a parish, the Protestant s io luP 'of well a diocese--(hear, hear,)—and the same itr,..afspeeeli is adopted in speaking of the Primate of all . Then, soy Lords, I say, grant Catholic Etnanci lN. 4 ----make these concessions if you will, as the price of ia s ,illity—but do not imagine that you eau stop here. I can agree to such a course until I can satisfy myself, Eii t there will he no mischi e f done to the Protestant Este e Church of Ireland in establishing the Roman Ca st tt Church. For .I am convinced that must be the end k; a uceasion, and I am also convinced that the Protestant la t : l4 islatnent would succumb to the Catholic Establish tc,,,'to Ireland. Those, therefore, my Lords, who wish an end put to the Protestant Church its Ireland, and trygto sae the Catholic Church established in its stead, c-onsistently vote for the present motion, as one step )1 4 4 4 the accomplishment of the object they have in view. because I love the Protestant Church of Ireland—he t4,7 I kn ow it h as p ro d uce d grea t and good amen .-. and be staje I regard it as a bulwark to the Church of Eagland, I V O 4ld not lose its support, therefore I will not grant li s !aeasure of Emancipation, which, upon a calm and die. iii:maate view of the question, I cannot but regard as an t mediate step to the attainment of higher objects. li: t efore, my Lords, I cannot agree to the. Resolution of I % Noble Marquis. I freely admit that I cannot see soy 1,1! Oat of the difficulties of the case; but, I know that 41 kastsre would' ot diminish, but would certainly in - t * doves difficulties. (Cheers.) I L: 4 PLUNKETT was inaudible for the first two or lk -as entencee. He then spoke as follows have been lid,anxious, my Lords, to take the first opportunity y t would fairly occur of declaring my unaltered con -1.441u upon this important subject. My Noble and l kt tned Friend behind sue (Lord Manners), who spoke 40 4 ight, stated es the of his observations and his i tr : l Y of Ireland for 2a years that Emancipation could nut tis Y be granted. • I am satisfied, my Lords, that ever) , stated by my Noble and Learned Friend was stated tt b th e must perfect sincerity. But I beg leave to state l'sP t/ ar Lordships, that after 40 years knowl e d ge o f that 4 4"„ 1 ' 1 7--in office and out of offiee—in P ar li amen t and , Parliament—with every opportunity for observation ;) the condition and sentiments of all classes in it, it is Iti t „.7'el) and unalterable opinion that unless this . agitated ' , e`o 2 't be set at rest by some conciliatory and remedial Ot:ate, there be neither tranquillity, prosperity, or t 'hY t fol' that conntry.",,,Wilieers.)--41any one has arrived 4 ki ec lulusso . that, at., pp tUne, sod under cireqin- C• Aft e , e. can any thing ever be done to berseOt the Roman fl t °lies of Ireland, • that person does tight to vote against tlt if 4 loliOn of any Noble Friend.—(Hear, bear, hear.)— 'N au less he do so think, lie cannot resist acceding to the "N: lt ion.—(ll ear , bear.)—l listened, my Lords, with 4 ;,:atteptior, to the able, temperate, and dignifies speech (tt'"Y Noble and Leal'neo Yrientl who has just sat dOw ll , 1 te r pats of it was mos t gratifying U.) me, beczese tholiglit under a resistance which my Noble Friend felt it ne ti,:tY now to make, some latent gleam of comfort, which ! l a ie a secr e t h o p e th a t there were securities , w hi c h, if 1 / 4 44 and Learned Friend had time to look after them, I ,'"iNd the season fitting for the experiment, he would ~itti s r to 'adopt.—(q . par, hear, hear.)—But there were Wl,i,,Part a of thespeech of My Nqble and Learned Friencl . ail s :, fill e d me with aurpri4; for I capafiti rtlY T.ords, at lter s • , • • atl N with him that the giving any step t he Roman to tend t ies towards the attainment of office-must of necessity g eln: f. the destruction of the Protestant Establishment of sh ort 4,ry .Lords, .I have been from nay :earliest 'n public ata advocate of this measure ; I llis h° help me God, if my ;ping could arrive at 'ha t ,„. e° uclusi on , I would at once abandon the cause, (li. !ides, and become its most determines' enemy.— (2 1,1 01 4 ear, hear.)—l regard the Protestant Established ete ano - of Ir e l an d as una lt era bly se ttl e d an d fi xe d as a i t itv o i fif ' i : ,, part of ,the Constitution of that country at the on e of and Aspewed and understood as such at the th e ca f the U n i on . ; an d t o t a lk o f any c h ange b y w hi c h to t o „ t ' ° lie Church s hould b e come pred om i nan t a pp ears I most futile.. I am talking in too new latiguage, my Lord& There must bean Established Church. T take it ' that if there be not an Established Church, in times like theSe religion herself Would become 'degraded. Therefore I think a hierarchy, with all the dignity and wealth at. tached to it, a good thing, and proper to be maintained by all means. For these reasons, and upon these grounds, and net upon the theoretical grounds put forth by certain writers, I am for the maintenance of the Established Church inviolate. Further, I am in favour of the Pro testant Established Church of Ireland, because I deem it a great kind of union between the two countries.—(Hear, hear, Mar.)—l. think it so interwoven with the most. public and important institutions of Ireland, that it has be come the foundation and security for the alliance of the two countries ; and if the property of . that Church were to be destroyed,' the subversion of all laws and the destruction of all other property must follow. This is my decided opi nion; and therefore I .should be OA to think my Noble and Learned Friend was mistakeni o u r o ds th , e tb la a t t ter 4 I thought part, j of; g his t argument. I can only say, my t so, I would now and for ever unalterably oppooe the con cession of this measure. I am glad to have this opportu nity of relieving niy mind; and I trust y ou r L or d s hip s will excuse me if I go a little hack into history, and briefly, very briefly, call your attention to a period which has been so much referred to on this,queetioo....-I mean, my Lords, 'the Revolution. The circumstances Under which that glorious event took place are so well known to your Lordships that I need scarcely refer to them. But, my L0r.14, upon that occasion this Protestant country took arms in support of civil and religions liberty against a ty rannic and despotic Monarch.—(Cheers.)--They took arms for the abatOment of tyrinny, and they had an undoubted right to tlo so. But I must remind ' your Lordships that they would not have succeeded if they had not enlisted in their cause the strongest motives of religious zeal. What was the situation of their Popish Island at that period ? That unfortunate people, to whom I should not trouble your Lordships by referring, but for the purpose of chew ing.that when we come to determine their rights, and skin judgrneut upon their conduct, • it taught not to he with feelings of resentment, but, on-thiscontrary, with shame, self-acusation, and remorse.---(Cheers.)--That couttry,. my Lords, was quiet, and free froin the errors of Popery and Romish usurpation. You ferried upon that , country, possessing a pure system of Christianity of her own, one fraught with Papal corruptions; and you forced her to consider herself in the light of a vassal of the Pope. With the blessings of peace the light of knowledge opened, and the Reformation was commenced and accomplished here, and appreciated ; but the other portion of the Empire was left in a state of neglected ignorance and barbarity, with out any attempt at education and knowledge. Then, my Lords, in like manner as you had forced the Papal domi nation upon her, so you forced the Protestant Reforma tion, But Ireland saw a Papal King -upon the Throne— she adhered to her faith, and could not be prevailed upon to take up arms against her Sovereign. Well, the Irish took up arms in the cause of their King and their religion, and, most itrtunately for themselves, they were subdued. And what was then the situation of this country ? It must be admitted that the great men who were concerned in the Revolution had a most difficult task to perform. It was impossible at that time that they could treat the Roman Catholics of Ireland as good subjects. They had been, not as regarded their King, but as regarded the English Government, in a state of armed resistance. They Could not, therefore, be admitted into the Legislature. Their exclusion was at that time necessary—it was an act of injustice as regarded them, but the necessity was so great as to authorise the exclusion of those people from Parliament. But I will call the attention of your Lord , ships to the state of the law at that time. At the period of the Reformation the Roman Catholics had an un-. doubted right to sit in Parliament, both in the Lords and Commons. From the Reformation to the Act of the 2d of William and Mary, the Irish Catholics, although they ' could not in point of law, yet did practically enjoy the pri -1 vilege of sitting in Parliament. There was the same en joyment, although not to the same degree of holding office; for it' was not for some time that the oath of su premacy was considered as a barrier. This was so for the first twelve years of Elizabeth, and it was not until at tempts were made by foreign priests, sent to this country to deprive her of the. Throne and of her rights', that any difficulties were thrown in the way on either of these points. I have already said, my Lords, that 1 do not doubt that those restrictions were dictated by stun neces sity; but what was the course pursued? The enlighteued persons who adopted those laws, saw clearly that it was in consistent with reason and policy to shut up atw,class from office, and from Parliament, and leave them in possession of wealth and the means of knowledge. They Mt that so surely as they did so, that class would avarturn the Stato,_(Cheere.) Then, Joy Lords, for a period ' of seventy years the, course pursued was, to reduce the Roman ,Catholics to the extreme of ignorance and poverty. They pursued their i point, until the end was,—such as all attempts to grind down the people must result in rebellion. (Cheers.)' Having then accomplished what they had in view, the good sense and gout! feeling of the English people turned with disgust from their own work, and saw with pity that portion of . the Empire reduced to so deplorable a condition. But, as I said, my• Lords, the good feeling of the English people recoiled at their own work. For although during that period there were two rebellions in Scotland in behalf of the exiled faini:y, and many disturbances in England, yet the Irish submitted to the. English law, until England became sub dued by the patience of the people of Ireland. The con sequence of this change of feeling was, a change of sys tem. We treated the Irish as beings of flesh and blood. We clothed, fed, and educated them, and gave them constitutional privileges. And now, my Lords, we find them, by our own acts, a great and powerful people.— (Hear, hear.)-13ut I cannot help thinking, my Lords, that there was one blunder in the Act of the year 1793. By that Act we removed all disabilities under which the Roman Catholics laboured. - ---all incapacities to become landed propriebars- o -to high office—or to the enjoyment of the privileges of the State, with the exception of the right of sitting in Parliament. The blunder committed here, my. Lorde, was, to give the rightof returning Members to sit in Parliament, and to withhold from the Aristocracy the right to be returned. Here was a Roman Catholic constituency with Protestant representatives. (Rear, hear.) A state of things that never could lead to any steady and consistent result. The consequence of this blunder was the Union, Which was intended by a union of the Churches, to give strength to both, and by uniting the two countries ender one constitution to secure eqiial liber ties in both ; and I would say, my Lords, beware how you depart from that intention. It is not now denied by any one, although no pledge was given, hopes were held out th a t t hat,,tl atthe measure would give increased facilities for emancipation ; and it was the adoption of those hopes by the Roman Catholics that mainly Contributed to the suc cess of the measure. I was then a young man, and I felt it my duty , to oppose the measure; I am now, I am sorry to say, an old one; and I must now say, that under the same circumstances I would do the same. (Hear, hear.)' But the Imagine having been carried, it is my sincere opiefini, and has been ever since the Union, that every thing should be done to make it irrevocable. I opposed the measure because I thought it would not act irnpaitielly, but as the measure of a party ; but I have been disaPpointed, and in no case have seen the interests of Ireland considered otherwise than with justice, favour, and even partiality. The debt of justice to Ireland, so far, has been nobly paid. Then, my Lords, if we have increased the trade of that country, relieved her wants, and advanced her prosperity, why not go ou anti grant her present claims ? I say, my Lords, that these claims are evidence of the benefits we have conferred on Ireland, and of her gratitude to England.—lf any man in the situation of the Irish Roman Catholic were to say that although this mark of exclusion was put Oh him, and lie had thus involuntarily become liable to political dis abilities, and was adjudged for ever incapable to sit ill Par liament, I should : , him ~ unworthy of men, if idee Butt, nay Lords,.l" e c a n ii :itt n e o r t emong the basest and roast d I could consider him sincere. believe hint to be sincere in any such declaration; I should look upon him only as a disgraceful hypocrite, pretending for his own ends to be contented under such a state of circumstances.—(Cheers , ) .—I have heard distinctions attempted to IN drawn be tween civil rights and political p ooser ; b u t I take' the liberty of saying, . that nothing can be more at vari ance with the fundamental principl e s of the British Constitution, than the . principle of such attempted distinctions. Political power is the guardian of civil rights. Th e claim of our Roman Catholic fellow-coun trymen is no new !daim—it is a claim to participation in those inherent original privileges which belong to free born British subjects—rights derived from the first origin of the British Constitution—rights not given by any spe cific law, but flowing from the eatabl;slnent of our oldest institutions. Where i s th e l aw , I s h ou ld h e g l a d to k now —who will Point it out to me—which enables a Protestant to sit in Parliament? Where is it to be found ? It is a right indeed recognised by the law, and universally con ceded by our practice; but the fact of the Protestant's eligibility to sit in Parliament rests in effect upon the common right or eligibility of every British subject—a right which I contend has been equally inherited by the Roman Catholic. Like all other rights it is one liable to he modified by the Legislature, in deference to considera tions of expediency or of necessity; but, I say, the enjoy ment of such right is the rule, and exclusion from it the exception ; in the system of our Constitution. Every case of exception, therefore is to be made out ? not by declamation or invective, but on specific proof. nut Con ' stitution is not, as it seems by some meta to have been con sidered; a constitution theste, restraints, and securities, but the whole frame of it zither bespeaks it to be a system of a very different nature. Throne, Lords, and Contmons,all rest on the same original foundation. What, I would ask, has hitherto preierved the institutions of this country from shar ing the fate of those of. other states; for, let it be remem bered 'that other countries have poSsessed mighty institu tions: But of these latter, I askswhat has been the fate? Some have been changed into oligarchies at the mere motion of the executive—others have merged into mere Courts of line—f-bUt ours have Subsisted, - becauSe the rights Which were common to all Members of the State were always coincident and co-existent with those fundamental prin ciples upon which those institutions were first raised.— Whatvould be the condition of this very house, of which I have the honotir of being a Metisber, if it did not derive fresh accessions of strength, from time to time, by the ex excise of that prerogative of the Crown, which may be said to renew the principle of your existence. But this prero gative would not be exercised by it if this doctrine of inhe rent. equal rights in the community were not recognized. Does it becoine, then, I would ask, any Nob person who has been raised in the course of this reign, for instance, to the honour of a seat in this House, by being made the object of such a prerogative—does it becOme such a one to talk about castes, and classes, and restrictions?—(Cheers.) With what face, my Lords, could I myself make the first use of the distinguished privilege I enjoy; through the con descension of my Sovereign,lby putting my back to that door, and shouldering away from it such a Peer as the Duke of Norfolk?—(Loud cheers, and cries of "Hear, kear.")-- Shame, shame to their detestable ingenuity who would turn up the four corners of our great Charter, and exclude from it's benefits the descendants of the great men by whom it setts acquired.—(Hear, hear, hear. )—But the inequality of which I have spoken is not the only grieVance Roman. Catholics have to complain of : the principle of excineionsgoei still further, and holds that one party are to have all the benefit of our laws, and that the other are to be utterly excluded from it. How must injustice so mons. strolls operate on the parties who suffei from it? Why, my Lords, the subjects even of an absolute Government, if they be ruled even by a mild and beneficent Monarch, may manage to be very contented and very happy ; but I defy any -Man to be so, who, bring otherwise qualified like all his fellow-subjects, finds himself excluded from Parlia ment, and at every turn, ashamed, degraded, and in sulted, and the victim of suspicions that his religion is base and idolatrous, and of a character so hostile to the State and its interests as to make it necessary that it should be suppressed. Every enjoyment, every acquisition, are lost and, swallowed up in the galling and bitter insult to which such a system exposes him. It has been made matter almost of reproach to the Catholics that their claims are renewed to the two Houses of Parliament at certain pe riodical seasons. I have always advised them, that if they would effect their greatobject speedily, they must proceed with discreet forbearance, and must approach not only the ablest opinions, but even the prejudices of their oppo nents, without passion or disrespect. But the soundest advice I thought I could give them, as far as I might possess any influence over them, always' ' , was tithe....- " Never cease to pursue those rights."—(Hear, bear.j_s_ The strongest argument, perhaps, for the concession of these rights is to be derived from the conduct of the whole Irish community on this occasion. No matter what their rights, no matter what their opinions, in this particular at least, they feel bound by a common tie, in a degree, per haps, unexampled in any other country. Laity, clergy, commonalty, all have combined together, in this instance, in the representations they have made to Parliament, and are directed in their movements in a manner equally ex traordinary. This direction, it is said, is lodged in the hands of a .few individuals, who have the power to excite them at any moment, on this great question, to do their bidding. Is it, then, difficult to choose, my Lords, be tween the two alternatives which are presented to you--of continuing the present system of exclusion, or of extin guishing that power, by the concession of those rights? Are we to hold our laws, our fives, our liberty, and our Safety, at the discretion and good pleasure of those indivi duals who wield this !nighty influence? Is this a state of things in which a kingdom should be allowed to continue ? You complain that these demagogues have got the entire command of the Irish people. They have it; but under what state of things? Two or three lawyers congregate to gether, and devise plans and make rules for the observance of their clients, which these latter, however extravagant they may be, implicitly obey. And what is the cause of this, again ? We ourselves, my Lords, who withhold' from them rights which they will never lose sight of, .for their's must ,be a perpetual claim.. You might as well attempt to ar rest the current of the blood in the human body, as expect to stop this demand except by gratifying it.—(Hear, hear.) These demagogues, justly as their proceedings , . have been .complained of, are but the spawn of our wro ng doing hie therto. Then comes the question—what are we to do ? And this is the beginning, the middle, and the end of the matter. What are we to do? Stand still, go backwards, or go forwards? Go backwards, .my Lords ? Re enact our Penal Laws ? Outlaw our people 2 Excellent tyranny, if it were practicable! Shall we make war upon our own resources—upon our own honour—upon our own country ? But war, my Lords, for what ? War might be successful, if you had it here; but you would have to encounter the same difficul ties afterwards—a war, at the end of which you would be a guilty spectacle of scoffing and exulting Europe.—(Hear. It is easy to say that our institutions are the pride awl envy of Europe ; but will the Statesman say so, who shall look through his political glassee at the western horizon, and there discover a blank speck preguant with all the elements of the thunder cloud, and almost ready to burst, not for him but on him. The Noble and Learned Lord went on to argue, that though he would answer with his life, that, in the event of any convulsion affecting the United Kingdom, Ireland would be true to her faith, her allegiance, and her honour, her adhesion to these would not be the result of the oaths of suptemacy, or test acts, but her gratitude for the remission of many penal laws during the last half century, when used previously to Alice her. He contended, that,Mr. Pitt's repeated decla ration, anti still more remarkable retirement from office, on this very question, proved that that great, man's name had been attached to principles and societies promulgated and formed in a spirit, and for purposes essentially different from those by which he (Mr. Pitt) was actuated on this subject. After expressing the high personal respect he entertained for the Noble and Learned Lord who sat near him (the Earl of Eldon), who conferred so much honour upou himself; the profession to which he belonged, and the country which he had served during a long public life, he (Lord P.) declared himself obliged to differ from him as to the view he had taken of the obligations of the Coronation Oath. The Noble Lord was then about to quote from the correspondence recently published between the late Lord Kenyon and George 111., when, Lord KENYON rose, and notwithstanding several in terruptions, attempted to address the House. He finally yielded, however, to the cries' of " Order." Lord PLUNKETT resumed his former l arge.seent, touching the Coronation Oath ; from which he inferred, that although in many supposable eases it might be vio lated, and that such violation ought to be instantly resisted (as in the case of taking away from the Protestant Church • its endowments, and investing atiother hierarchy in pOeses sion of them) ; yet the adtniesion of Catholics to civil office would constitute no such violation. The Noble and Learned Lord went on to infer that the effect of the 13t1s of Charles the,Secottd, the recital of the Act of Union; . and the 31st end 3:3d of George 111., all of them Acts largely referred to in the debates that had taken place on this question—the same conclusion must become to; mutely, that neither upon them, nor upon the adMinistration of the oath of supremacy were Catholics of necessity excluded, as the practice had excluded them from seats its Parliament, and admission to civil office. The oath of supremacy, when taken in the literal sense, denies not merely any authority which a foreign power ought to have, but even any spiritual authority. But it is not in the nature of things to deny that right and power with respect to the spiritual concerns of a particular sect in the king's dominions. It is an absolute denial of all power with respect to the established religion of the country in all Matters, temporal or spiritual, but no more. And, my Lords, I will ask, does the King of England exereiste any authority in the spiritual concerus of this sect, or could he do so without the sanction of an Act of Parliament ? Cert iinly not, according to the words and nature of that oath; 4od as long as it continues, the Pope must have that power. I only state that, according to the words of that oath, and to the nature of things, this must be ; but do I mesto to, advance that this oath is uncon!rolable? on the Contrary, I think and maintain it se most important that this power should be placed under the controul of the State. I think it is a danger for which a remedy ought to be pro titled. I think it a formidable thing that there should be an intercourse between the Roman Catholics of Ireland and a foreign power—an intercourse which at present may be innocent, but far the mischievous effects of which hereafter nobody can pretend .to answer. I say with several Noble Lords who have this night addressed your Lordships, that some specific measure should be introduced. I think that the appointment of the Catholic Clergy should be 'bonded substantially upon a domestic stomination. I agree with Noble Lords in believing that danger may result from the authority now exercised by the Pope in these ap pointmosts ; .but the Noble Lords feel that this furnishes , then' with a good ygument against removing the Roman • • • Catholic disabilities, and they had rather have the danger and the argument than adopt a course of proceeding which would have the effect of doing away with both. For myself, my Lords, I cannot conceive how any body, anxious to guard the Protestant establishment, can refuse entertaining this proposition, or joining hand in hand with me in carry ings it into effect. On the subject of additional securities, I would say that I am strongly impressed with the eouvic tionthat some arrangement ought to be made with the See of - Rome, by which, in the appointment of the Roman Clltholic Clergy, the substantial control should be given to the Government, andthat a competent provision ought to he wade for the Roman Catholic Priests, in some way or other, by the State. To the latter it is possible that diffi culties arising from the financial state of the country-might be objected ; but it should he considered you would have more expense in equipping.and sending forth one army to restore tranquillity to Ireland, than could possibly be in , cormd in making the most ample provision for her Catholic Clergy. These, my Loads, I contend, would go farther than any other measures, to,give safety to the Protestant establishment, and to create an undivided allegiance to a Protestant throne. My Lords, it has been repeatedly argued, that the Roman Catholic pays but a divided alle giance to the State, because he recognises the authority of the Pope in spiritual matters, and a Right Rev. Prelate - contends that although this acknowledgement of the spi ritual supremacy of the See of Rome does not interfere with the abegiance of the subject, in foreign States, that it does most materially in this country.—But, my Lords, 1 have never yet been able to discover what the actual things are which do make this danger, and which create this divisiou of allegiance. The Noble Lords who have pursued 'this line of argument do not mention it, and I have never yet seen it placed in an intelligible point of view. It is true that it has been argued that the Rotnish Church does exercise an extraordinary power with respect to mar riage,and I do not deny that she lets fall her spiritual censure on parties, living in what-she considers a state of sin ; but this act of the Church of Rome, my Lords,-is fraught. with up legal consequences; it has neither the effect tif dissolving ths marriage, nor of bastardising the children, and I really think that accidental cases, in themselves insignificant, should neither be brought forward, nor dwelt:upon a single moment, in considering the general question. My Lords, I will advert to one more topic ; a Right Rev. Prelate says, that the Roman Catholics declined giving any securities, and that this circumstance alone would decide him against the proposition. A Noble Earl, too, has contended that he is fully entitled to take away from my side of the question the authority of those great names -which we are in the habit of considering- as shedding an imperishable lustre around it—the names of Pitt, Fox, and Grattan ; and this, because things have since happened which would Tender it impossible that they should support the measure. Now, firstly; my Lords, in 1813, reasonable securities were offered ; and secondly, notwithstanding all that had passed, Mr. Canning, who may fairly be ranked amongst the great men of this country, always did continue to support the cause. But with respect to the claims of the Catholic body, I declare that tke Right Rev. Prelate is not entitled to say, that the Roman Catholics will not give securities. I firmly believe, my Lords, that the great body of the Ca tholic population of Ireland are perfectly well disposed to do so ; anti I wish to impress upon your Lordships, that you are not to take your opinion of the Roman Catholics, from what passes in their meetings, or from the conduct or speeches of their leaders. The sentiments of the majority of the Catholics is not expressed at these meetings. Those who differ from the leaders have not, courage to declare their opinions as they ought to do. But what of this, my Lords, if r k!urities be just and right, and if we see that the measure can be -rendered sate by securities which the Roman Catholics have no right to refuse, we ought at mice, and without hesitation, to pass that ,measure, in whatsoever form it may be most pleasing to us. This, My Lords, is the fundamental principle of legislation : and if you do what is just and right, be as certain as you can of your own existence, that, sooner or !atria-benefit must result from it; anti if the Roman Catholics should then attempt to mis construe your motives, • and to do injustice to themselves and to you, they will be deprived of all power of molesting you by tke very fact of all their real grievances having been taken away. The object of any act brought forward upon the subject ought simply to be the public safety; and the evant, sooner or later, would undoubtedly be public tranquillity. And I may observe, by-the bye, that it should not be sup- Posed, and I never can for a moment countenance the idea, that a- measure for the relief of Roman Catholics front their dis ebilities would produce instant tranquillity iu Ireland. tmy Lords, I can never oonseut to regard it as that pa ea fur all the ills of that country which it has been re presented to be, or that, without other measures, it can groducrtireil' that benefit, which might be rationally anti cipated. No; undoubtedly there would still' be angry passions brought into play in the disputes for offices and situations; but there would not be that hectic fever prey ing upon the vitals, awl - eating into the very heart oflre land ; poisoning all the sources of her well being or im provement, and making tier act as a perpetual dead weight upon this country. I will not trespass for many moments longer 'upon your Lordships' time. I only wish to state, that when I gave my vote in the House of Commons for the suppression of the Catholic Association, it was under the impressio n that it would not be a solitary measure for the relief of Ireland. I thought that it would have , been accompanied by other measures ; but other measures -have not accompanied it, and bad I then known that they would not, I should have felt bow unavailing it was to attempt to suppress public discontent by a legislative enactment ; for, My Lords, my opinion upon the subject is, that an over whelming grievance does exist, and mail this can be got rid of, the expression of public dbicontent cannot be got rid of. Close up one channel arid it will-infallibly burst out in another—unless indeed you were,to enact laws of that exeessive rigour which would be utterly repugnant to the feelings and ideas of the nation, and to the mild principles of our Constitution. The fact therefore is, my Lords, that you cannot put down tha power of creating discontent ex cept by removing the grievance. ' The Earl of ELDON then rose, but from the low tone of voice in which he spoke,and from the confusion and dis t urbance which prevailed below the bar, he was for some moments inaudible. lie declared that the principle upon which he hail always acted was—" Be just and fear not." lie avowed that he entertained the highest respect for the memory of a great person whom he considered entitled to the gratitude of his country; and he said he pleaded guilty to annually commemorating his memory in the way in which from the first be bid been accustomed to comme morate it ; but he denied -having eve: made use of the op portunity afforded him by that custom to tell the Roman Catholics of Ireland that it was not the intention 'of that distinguished individual to relieve them from their disabi lities, for he knew himself, and he could speak with that , perfect knowledge of the fact which his intercourse with that great person had bestowed upon him, that it was his (Mr. Pitt's) intention to relieve the Roman Catholies from their disabilities, not only in Ireland but in this country, if he :amid have done so constitutionally, and with the secu rities uccessary for the religious and civil establishments of England. Having said this much, he would come to the motion before the House, end be would venture to say that it furnished an instance of the most extraordinary Parliamen tary proceeding he had ever remembered. The proposition was to the following effect. —(Here the Noble Lord read the , proposition introduced by the Marquis of Lansdowne, which we have already published.) Their Lordships said what was the question they had to decide, and lie begged of them to permit him to put them in mind of the proceedings of the House for the last 25 years. -They had a Constitution which for a period of a century and a half had excluded the Roman Catholics from seats in Parliament and front certain hi g h o ffices, and when, some years ago, a similar proposi tion to the present was brought before their Lordships, it was negatived, and on these grounds, that it would hive the 'effect of unnecessarily alarming thelarotestants, and of raising hopes and wishes in the minds of the Roman Catholics which never might be realised--and, 25 years ago, they t h ou ght that the proper mode, of proceeding was to in tiarduce some specific Measure upon which they might deliberate, and see if it was admissable. Well, then, what was consequence? That they afterwards had, in various Bills, propositions which they negatived. And now, When for a Irerititl of 28 years, the House bad resolved itself io,to a species of Connuiatee upon this subject, and was tidy to receive any proposition, be could not avoid saying that it was an extraordinary proceeding to come Wore them with a motion such as had been made by the Noble Mar quis on the present occasion s Lie had been on several pc ;Via,c°n ed addressedaan lAiislinsaon,aecrke-igmnakoenr, the ilip when et t i l ° l: " Ro r t e n i :n Catholics, he stated that he would ha taken by certain persons for an Almanack- writer , and thin being t N ) ioeb ca le s L e, or h d e . had no objection c to share the title with the many such Acts In the tango. queen Mary, were passed to giv e the Pope a power in this countey.-- And when Queen Elizabeth succeeded to the throne all those statutes were repealed, and one of the Acts by which they were repealed, recited that its object was to relieve the people of England from the hondage into which they had Lord Moen thrown by the Acts passed in the reign of Philip and Mary. Any Noble Lord wilt( had the curiosity to look to those Acts would find that they were framed to confer ad- Vantages, ecclesiastical and temporal, upon the See of Ronne; and more flagrant measures were not to be found recorded upon the page of history. In the fifth year of th e reign of this Popish Queen a new Oath of Supremacy was produced, and the Commens were required to take this oath, together' with the Oath of Allegiance, before they could 'be admitted to their seats. A Right Rev. Prelate considered the lawyers to• be well-read blockheads ; but whether ‘-‘ ; or the contrary, they knew what was thought of the tiaa: tif .4-esnacy by Dr. Doyle. Dr. Doyle, in his evideisce Laaine Parliament, was asked whether, if a person in his confession to him were to state his intention of putting in practice any treasonable design, would he consider himself bound by that oath to disclose to Itis Sovereign these treasonable. designs. Dr. Doyle said, no. It was true the words of the oath re quired that he should communicate any treasonable de signs that fell within his knowledge : but that the Roman Catholic Clergy do not reveal what is stated in confeasion. So that he (Dr. Doyle) has established by his evidence that they were not judges of the degree in which an oath would he binding on a Roman Catholic by the words, for that they had not power to site's what was enjoined upon bins by his faith. The oath of allegiance, properly uuderstood, comprehended the Oath of Supremacy, and a Protestant. takes both. Hale said, time Pope has made great incur sions upon the Royal authority in this Kingdom. The two oaths, in fact, were found insufficient to enable you to get a proper knowledge of a moan's character, and the de claration against transubstantiation was consequently ob liged to be added. It was certainly true that Peers were excluded from seats in that Mouse unless they: took the Oaths of Supremacy and Abjuration, and unless also they subscribed the Declaration against Transubstantiation; and now his Noble and Learned Friend—if he would allow him to call him so—said their Lordships must consider whether there was not a distinction between political rights and 'odels of religion. Now, in his mind, that was not the question ; but whether there were to be introduced into that House all the Roman Catholic Peers, if his Majesty should think St to call them up by writ, and whether all the Members of the other House of Parliament might not he Roman Catholics—the right to sit'in Parliament being a political right. The Noble Lord had said—and in a manner that did him great credit for his candour—that he thought these oaths might be dispensed with ; but he (Lord Eldon) apprehended that if the King himself - were to come to the throne in that House before he had gone to Wert minster Abbey to be crowned, it would be the duty of their • Lordships to tell him, that if be did not take those oaths which the Act of Parliament required him to take, lie could do no act as the King of these realms. Such was the state of the law as applied to, the King himself, and thus matters went on, as he had before stated, from the time of Charles 11. to the Revolution ; and then those Acts were made, with some alterations, calling upon his Majesty to take that Coronation Oath, and do those acts which time other Statutes of King William required him to do, and one of which was to take the Coronation Oath. A Noble and Learned Lord had said last night, that lie could find nothing in that oath applicable to the subject before their Lordships ; but he (Lord Eldon) hoped he should never see a King upon the throne of this country who had not taken that oath, and who should nut teel himself bound by its obligations.—(The Noble Lord here referred to the letter of Lord Kenyon to his late Majesty, stating his opinion of the binding nature of the Coronation Oath, and advising him to refuse his assent, even though an Act of Parliament for granting to the Catholics political power should have been passed through both Houses of the Legis lature.)—By that opinion he (Lord Eldon) would abide, and if his Majesty should conscientiously feel that, as the head of this Protestant kingdom (and he was, by Act of Parliament, authorised to call it a Protestant kingdom) he could not, consistently with the oaths he had taken, give his assent to such a measure, notwithstanding that he had been so advised by the other House of Parliament, his Majesty would be perfectly justified in giving his dis. sent to St. Their Lordships were aware that in the reign of King William, the Coronation Oath was prescribed by Act of Parliament to be taken by the King of this country, which bound him not to subvert the Protestant religion. The Act of Settlement required his Majesty to be in com munion with the Church of England. That Act required also that the King should not marry a Roman Catholic. These Acts meant, therefore, that we should have upon the Throne a King who must be one who was in communion , with the Church; and upon the Throne also a King who should take the Oaths of Supremacy and Abjuration, and make the Declaration agains* Transubstatiation.— From that' reign up to th" present time the Consti tution appears to be a Protestant Constitution ; the King, the Parliament, and all the Great Officers of the country were Protestant. He should now wish to call their attention to the Act ot Union with Scotland. That Act proceeded on the notion that the Legislature of this commory was' so composed; and with respect to Scotland_ it was confirmed by that Aet-..-end - thus a - ProVaitioit Con stitution became part of the union of the two kingdoms. In the course of the debate. a great deal had been said re specting securities, and the resolution before their 'Lordships held out the idea that they should enter upon a considera tion of the subject with such a view. But during the whole of the tWo:nights' debate, no seec;h6 securities had been pro posed. It might have been thought by some that to give the King a veto in the nomination of the Irish Bishops, or the snaking of them a matter of domestic nomination, or, in short, one or all of those propositions of which we had go often heard, would have been put forward, and that their Lordships would not have been called on to consent to a proposition so general as that under discussion. It was competent to the Legislature to-guard the Church as effec ‘tvuoaulllydaak, as it t w he as re n fo o r w e, g n t o ta b r i d e e L d, o o rd r s, ev w e i n ta mote othey i strongly.eineantshould il be done to insure that protection—of what nature were the securities they contemplated ? None of any kind had been ever suggested- . ---a circumstance which fully justified him and their Lordships in refusing their consent to the motion of the Noble Marquis. [At the moment the Earl of Eldon concluded, a Noble Peer, Lord Feversham, as we understoed, fainted, a cir cumstance which occasioned considerable confusion in the 'douse, and rendered the opening sentence of the Marquis of Wellesley inaudible.) The Marquis WELLESLEY—I rise, my Lords, to ex press my entire concurrence in the resolution before your Lordships ; and I found that concurrence upon a convic tion that the effect of the laws (to repeal which is its re mote object) is, instead of tending to the security of either the 'Church or State, greatly to endanger both. It has been my lot for many years to watch closely the state and the effect of those laws, and I have no hesitation in 4e daring to you, that the result has been to impress upon me the conviction I have just now expressed, with a de gree of strength which it is impossible for me to describe to you: (The Noble Marquis here referred, as we under stood, for an interruption below the bar prevented our hearing it distinctly, to his Lordship's Government of Ire land.) In diachargingthat duty, I have had—and I ac knowledge with gratitude, which I expressed at that time— the support of individuals of rank, of power, and of in fluence, in Ireland. But all that I could do, even with the assistance of those persons—supported also, I humbly per suaded myself, with the favourable opinion of my Sovereign, and by the co-operation of those distinguished individuals who held high offices in the Government of the country— I felt my desire and my capability tube of service, marred and rendered unproductive by the dreadful influence of those laws, balefully operating, as they did, upon the best interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.)-1 therefore give my vote with sincere pleasure for the examination of those laws. The Resolution before your Lordships hinds y o u no t to any particular course, after a due consideration of those laws, nor to the adoption of any measures founded upon that investigation. It goes merely to declare— " That it is expedient to consider the Laws affecting his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjustment as may be conducive to the peace nod strength of the United Kingdom—to the stabilityof the Protestant Establishment—and to the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his Majesty's subjects." Now, J have to inquire of any person acquainted with Ireland, is the state of the law respecting the Rnnaau Ca tholics there any thing likely to .a l icig h t e odo c t i4-al e—g ueive to the e tte er s a t l a ta bil t i i t? s p f ea t c h e je a p ti r d o s te t s re ta n n g t tl E i , o t f ub t i l: s e in U ne n tl it t e:i faction and concord of all his Majesty's subjectsr (Hear.) We have had, in the course of this diacuasion, the declared opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, that the consideration of this subject is in volved in great difficulty.—(Hcak, hear.) But still he affords us no hope that those difficulties shall be removed, and a remedy for 11 7 ,e evil applied.—(Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lot,al point out any mode—did he hold forth the least expectation, that we should in any way escape from those difficulties?—(Continued cheering.) No ; the Noble Lord did none of those things. The difficulties, however, lie in a code of laws which, as I have already said, instead of operating as securities to Church and State, are, in my opinion, dangerous to. both. Your security is now your positive danger danger. your security aret operation il e sourcesof th those laws now existing—not urgent and imminent , but pressing and immediate.—(Cheers.) Are we not , then , my Lords, to go into the consideration of s uch a code great which constituted of laws? The,cousideration of it is our positive duty.— What is then to happen if we neglect that duty ? 'Would it not be, in addition, a pertinacious neglect of the recom mendation of the House of Commons ?—(Hear.) Let the result be what it may on this occasion, however, I shall de rive consolation from the tone and temper in which this discussion has been carried on ; and particularly lay the conduct respecting it of one of whom I have the honour of being the relative, and who now sits opposite to me; Who has, with the moat candid and manly spirit, declared that he would be favourable to the revision of the laws new un der.your Lordships' consideration, provided he could be is; sured aSecurity the Church and State.:—(Cheers.) That avowal, 'and the positive admission of the Noble and Lear ned Lord that the subject is surrounded with difficulties and dangers, forms, in my mind, irresistible grounds for inquiry. My Noble Relative would require securities. I' concur'with him in requiring the , . ; and, in my judgment ti►ey should be such as would not only give security to the Church and the State, but be generally satisfactory to the whole body of his Majesty's subjects.—(Hear, bear.) A: Noble and Learned Lord (the Earl of Eldou as we under stood) has expressed alarm, lest the concession s sought by our Catholic fellow-subjects should be productive of danger to the State. God forbid that I should have the presumption to ascribe that feeling of alarm►, and the general objection of my Noble and Learned Friend (if be will allow me to call him so) to the Resolution before your Lordships, to prejudice. No ; my Noble and Learned Friend has no doubt founded his hostility upon a due consideration of the Co►►stitution of this country —upon which he possesses' • more learning upon that particular tlass of history, and on , that part of our laws relating to the question before your' Lordships, than perhaps any man in or out of this House. Therefore, it is impossible to attribute prejudice to him; and on that account I shall never give my consent to any' arrangement that is net founded upon Such securities as are calculated to give satisfaction to his Majesty, and to all his Protestant subjects.—(Hear, hear.)—l repeat my opi- , nion, that the existence of thes'e hates is f►aughf with posi-, tive danger, and that the. repeal of them wanid be of posi tive advantage to the empire. We are not, fortunately, driven to the alternative of treating the Roman Catluidies as a separate nation. They form a portion of the subjects o f t h e em pir e . lam of opinion that arrangenients are equally necessary to settle this question —to meet the ap prehensions of the Protestasts, as well as the desires of the Catholics. Such an arrangement would not only set at rest that question which has so long divided the population of Ireland, in particular; but it would also have the effect of amalgamating the Catholics with their other fdlow subjects, and thus give stability to the whole of the arrange. ments.—(clear, hear.)—l felt it my duty, my Lords, to state my feelings and my conviction upon this important subject, and (us I trust you will have perceived) have been - particularly anxious to compress that statement as much as possible.—(The Noble Marquis sat. down amid loud and continued cheering.) _ • _ The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, I rise tinder extreme difficulty to address your Lordships on this most important subject. I feel particular concern in being tinder the necessity of following my Noble Relative, and of stating that I differ in opinion from him whom I so dearly love--:-him for whose opinions I entertain so much respeet. 1 cannot, however, prevail upon myself to declare my own conviction, hoping that the views of my Noble Relative and my own do not differ in reality,—(llear, hear.) I wish, as much as my Noble Relative does, that this question should be brought to an amicable conclusion.—(Loud cheering.) But Ido not see in the' measure propose.' to your Lordshipe the means of bringing it to snob a Cowan sion.(Cries of hear, hear, hear.) I must see clearly and distinctly security to the State before I can give any hope on this question. My Noble Relative says that our .ectirity %vat be found in the removal of the securities which now exist. I say that the securities we now enjoy, and whi c h for a length of time we have enjoyed, are indispensihle the security of the Church and State. I should bag Lid to see the disabilities of the Roman Catholics removed ; but 'before I can consent to their removal, I must see some thing in their stead which will effectually protect our insti tutions.—(Cheers.)—l feel exceedingly happy at the - good temper and Moderation in which this debate has been con dusted ; and your Lordships may rely upon it I shall say nothing calenlated to disturb that desirable feeling ; •but it is impossible for me to avoid referring to some observa tions of Noble Lords who have preceded me in this discus sion. The Noble Marquis who introduced the Resolution now before•your Lordship, took occasion to refer to some expressions of mine uttered in a former debate respecting the state of 'lreland at, of course, a previous period, and with particular reference to the claims set up for tit' restoration of confiscated property. When I alluded to those transactions I expressed my apprehensions that con- • cession Might lead to similar events. I believe, however, that I stated then, as Ido now, that I wait, as all now, extreinely inlioui that something aught be found— - some mode diScovered—by which this unfortunate state of things might be remedied; but I never said otherwise than' in expressing nay wish that-it might be hrmight t o an anti cable conclusion. My Lords, my own opinion is, that we haVe never objected to the Roman Catholics on the ground that they believe in transubstantiation, or in purgatory, or in any other of those peculiar doctrines by which they are distinguished-L-doctrines with which a most Rev. Prelate conceived it • his duty to find , fault. But,. my Lords, ate, objected to their opinions, because upon those opiiigns was. founded a system of political conduct. lam now 'to eon- #,;- skier this question, in which the Noble Marquis has put it, as one of expediency, and I agree with a Noble and Learned-Lord in thinking that we are bound to respect civil power and political right ; but I ant sure the Noble and Learned Lord will agree with me when I say.' that if it be expedient that this question should be granters, that civil power •and that political right ought art to be exercised. The question then resolves itself into one of expediency; and I ground my opposition to it, not on tin> Peculiar doctrinal points of the Roman Catholic faith, but because of the nature of Roman Catholic Church Govern ment. lam sure Ido not wish to say any thing that will be deemed invidious, or that will tend to hurt the feelings, of any man, but when we recollect, the transactions that have taken place in Ireland during, the, last twenty-five years, and see how the Roman Catholic Church has berm acting theie, in a spirit of combination,in a spirit by, which the laity has been governed—it is this, my Lords, I confi dently affirm, that is the cause of the present disturbed state of things in Ireland. The Nob!, Marquis (Lans downe) talked of the power of the people, and of a power less aristocracy in the country to which he referred—of a people, guided and governed by demagogues, and by the, priesthood ; but, my Lords, that is the consequence, not of the state of : the , law, but of that combination to which I have alluded. Then, my Lords, I say, that if you grant this Catholic L'utancipation—if you give all that ,the Roman Catholics require —what security have you that this combination will not still exist ? My Lords, we are told that there are securities, and 1 admit, from the first moo- went that this question was launched in this country, frond the passing of the Union down to the present day, all-those who have ever moved this question, have stated that securi ties there must be. The Right lion. Gentleman to whom the Noble Lord had alluded, stated in that very letter to. which the Noble Lord referred, and stated most explieitia in Parliament, that there must be securities. ,But that - Right Hon. Gentleman never, in the Cabi ne t a t f east , as f ar as I have been able to learn, set forth what those seiatrities were. 1 have repeatedly conversed with those that were intimately acquainted with the Right lion. Gentleman, and with some who were connected with him inroffice at the period to which I advert, but I have never heard, not could I ever learn, in what those securities consisted. A Noble awl Learned Lord (Plunkett) has given a detailed history of such securities us have been proposed' for consideration, hut be has told us, in fact, and I am sure he will not deny it, "' that the Roman Catholics themselves have objected to all such proposed securities. The Noble and Learned Lord says, that we ought to hear and attend to this subject. All Noble and Learned Lords are aware of that, but bow are they-L.how is Parliament—how are the people of Eng landgsi on tile subject. Wef?el to do so? Whatever Noble and Learned Lords may know, we must believe that Lords,it is not extraordioary of Chltrch and State, and provisions for the security of the Church and State, such as are acknowledged to be necessary, filin which aise il t i , e lise se d e t ,;a ti t i tt e e , n In t h a a t t x, Catholics, whose conduct they are intended to regulate. Under thesecircumstances, my deeply t pl w y e interestedtOuld have ior strong feelings safety we feel therefore that we ought to be staciently assured that no danger exists before we incur any risk, 'Now,'Hiy Lids, I cannot but Observe ott what fell from the Noble Lord spposite at the comenencetnent of the debate last night with reference to the examples that he then set up, when contending that the Roman Catholic religion in its naturat s t a te was not a religion unfavo ura bl e t o t h e Covene c i o n un g t o r v ies ern o i t n . g En t r i o n p i e r , e ,f g eal y l o in u g r Lordship to oh, nantor. b in the aid o f Oa Ph i s i f ear,vva Pore I , y teet oh na c ta siluinidetsittar:ylot.itheitte; necessity tly the Severe npr subjects. The- Roman Catholic subjects of Europe have thin been gained over by au instrument issued in some way or other by the the subjects, ofEul o o f re a , n y beore particular they Pope, and such i nstrument as a ff or d e d su ffi c i ent k n o w l e d ge of the int ercourse t h at ex i sted b ettveen the P ope an d of the comp l ete a ll eg i ance o f t h e i r Catholic subj ec t s , have been compelled to procure concordats or bulls could Stte. obtain possession Pio testan Protestant from the Pope, by the power of which they received the aid of the Roman Catholic Church, and obtained in fluence over their Roman Catholic subjects. 13 ii t, my Lords, I must say, that we should look with great jealousy to such an arrangement with respect to Ireland; for the fact is, that until such concordat was granted, the Sove reign found himself unable to govern his own subjects.— Such was the case with respect to the etupire of Russia, the Roman Catholic subjects of which could only be eo verned by proem ing a concordat from the Pope. The Envror of Russia, therefore, notwitLst luting his power, was obliged to call on the Pope to assist hint to govern his "t i f 1 }-. .- ~.. L'F'4 NV4 ,•'~~. ~~ .: , +ri . = ~