The Sun. — London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

any remarks upon the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; i ndeed, it was not what he had stated that called for any observation ; it was that art hich he had omitt e d.—(Ch eers.) It was at all times a y difficult matte.c to, follow a long financial statement without preparation, and it was the more difficult; for him to do so then, as he had been but a short time in town ; but there i verse one or two points upon which he would offer a few observations. He believed the Right lion. Gen tleman had made no alteration —bad found 'no mistakes in the estimates made by him (Mr. - .airing) in his finan cial Statement in April. It was a source of satisfaction to him to find such to be the case after a lapse of six months.,—(Hear, hear. yHe undenstoo the proposd trans ;ion a s it WAS stated in the newsp d apers ; h e ha e d no. dot tit upon the matter until he heard the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. As he understood the tr ansaetion, the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to fund two e n d a half millions, while, by ahe arrange.- of of the terms he proposed :at the same time to raise two d a half i'.ons in money. But When the Ri g h t li on. an Gentleman stated that he men tionedl five millions to inform the public that he should want t wo - and-a-half millions he (Mr„ -Bing) must say that be was l e f t i n doubt whether he ar understood the me anure of th e Ri ght Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) tree:tad that ne word, would fall from him to e:aeurnbe r the public service ' • but he did n o t thi n k that Right Hon. Gentleman could say that his-mea sure neceedecl. It appear e d to Lim that the Right Hon. Gentleman was in this position—that he did not know whether he had funded two-and-a-half millions or - j et ; that he Would neither know the amount funded ;.ir the a mount of money ho was likely to receive—ne;aher the 4 _ ls l'e nor the other. If, therefore, his main (ntaject was Right, fetit Utwo:•and-a-half milliona of Exchequ:er Bills, the -night, Zion. Gentleman had not scured Vont object ; if, °lithe other hand, his Object was to obta.i. o two and a half minions in money, to obviate the necensity of going oat ° E the ntarket, in that case the Right Than Gentleman had not got the ' money.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman stated, that nc one wo old quarrel with the a innunt oE bonus he had adopted. So far from it, if he ( kr- Baring) might liave snggrasted anything to him . ens to his making an obsnavation of that kind, he shnind h are said, "Don't ine:ite the operation without being Perfectly sure of suet: , ledhig." He (Mr. Baring) atethat th e a d vantage, of any small saving (which 'le 'did not un d errate ), would not be equal, in the present State of th e fi nances, to osufficient 'offering terms to se curt3 the operation prop osed. But with regard to the an) cunt of the offer of the Right Honourable Gentle 11* - 1 41, he (Mr. Baring) roust say, that it appoered to him al• s atisfactory offer. He said that wi'll satisfaction, b ecause it appeared. that after all ,: l at the Right on. Gentleman had. said—that after ten years of Whig Ad ministration he proposed terms which he believed Aim less by one-third than he. himself funded Bache gni I' Bills in 1830. These w,-! re facts he (M r. Baring) Was: glad t o learn. After all they had heard th of our finances —of the enormous ditlicultit s °iihe ruin iche ( 1 4 . Baring) h a d l eft the finances of the country, the moo tent the Eight Hon. Gmtleman v.Anted money he offe r ed to the public a sum one-third less than he himself had. offered after some 40 or 50 years uninterrupted ad:Jai iaist ration of the finances. These fe.cts, he repeated, were conaiolatory amidst the ague and to ouloquy that were cast upon them, that when he (the Chancellor of the Excl. th e m came to deal in the money market, he did not rind they had left it 50 per cent. worse, bat 25 rem cent. better..—(Cates of " Hear, hear.") With regard to the riper ution of the Right Hon. Gentle man, there Was one Wait to which he wished to allude. He 'thought he (Mr. C Culburn) should use his best en deavours to avoid a lca,n. The House might recollect what was the case in t'ae good old times when a loan was to be executed. Exe opt in extreme cases, he should re gard it us extremely wrong to have recourse to a loan. (Heaaa hear.) He conceived the plan of opening to com binati objections. on the raisir,k of 2,500,000 L, was liabl e t o very stron g He th oug h t i t was not right to have r ecourse to a connbination of the monied aristocracy. The Ilight Hon. Gentleman prop s t d to make up, by of Exch equer /3ills or sale of Stock, what heans e was unable to do by means of his operation. He agreed with him in the necessity of keeping down the amount of Exche quer Bills. ldut the Right Hon. Gentleman would find that the amount of thnse Bills had been reduced by him self and Lord Monneagle in 1835 ; therefore the Right tion. Gentleman 1 1 1 1 the market a,,a. * would find a less amount of those Bills an when he came into offiCe. Though b e R, ight Ron. Gentlemen opposite had reduced them bytaree r aillions, yet they' were not the only persons r a i sin reelnieed them. He should be rather for th aa -- g, the required amount by sale of Stock ti , n 1 ).)7 Exchequer Bills. But ho was surprised .0 t%ight Hon, Gentleman did not make any allusion to Teprospeers of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Not once clid he vonchsafe a small glimpse as. to how he should (Ch*proceed with the finances of the country hereafter.-- eees.) When on a former occasion lie was taunted w ith. saying h e d; would let this alone he twice rose and in .gnantly repelled the accusation. And yet he now considered, after his success, that the wisest plan was to leave things alone, and wait the next Session.—(Cheers.) If he (Mr. Baring) thought delay was absolutely neces sary he should not object to a delay of some weeks— Wear, hear)—but in his conscience he could not admit the plea of delay in the present position of affairs ; and after. the late Government had been attacked and de feated upe.,n their financial measures —(Hear, hear)__ he could not understand such a proceeding.—(Cheers.) lie ha',, with his Nobl e F r i en d t h e Member for London, oPlYosed any such delay under such 'circumstances, and c onsidered it unadvisable to pursue the course pursued by the other side. He hoped the Right lion. Gentle 'man had some expectation that it would not be necesary t ° lovy new taxes, but if h e h a d no such expectation then he t hought it danger ous t o d e l ay, and he considered it „ un fair that th ose t aunts of profligate expenditure should 00 directed against the Whig Government. Sir It. PEEL intimated that he made no such accu sation. Mr. BARING—But they were the words of the Noble ford: before whose motion the Whig Government was Iheat en. — (Cheers.) He knew the Right Hon. Baronet Ives alw a y s ready to disavow the sentiments of one-halt made , of hi s friends. —were (Cheers.) Those accusations ;and charg es were founded on them, and then the Right lion. Gentleman says he did not make them.—(Cheers.) 33ut when a great party were banded together it was niot natural to suppose that without some bond of union ' in They would be employed by those holding situations the Government of the Right Ho( s nourable Baronet.— Cheers.) H e d el i vered his protest aga i nht ef the Right H on . G ent l eman. He hoped the course su ccessful in his m easures , an d h e was himselfe would be as a_n_xio• .4 ab out their success as when he was in office himself. *as c onvinced the g oo d f a ith o f th e co untry - Re get th e fi e het and tho ug h th e Ri g h t H on.. Ge nt leman might not amount he desired, he would net. draw from Thence any evil omen of the finances of she country.— (Chee rs.) ta The CHANCELLOR of ,',;ho EXCHEQUER said ; ta t Right H on . G ent l emar , had concluded his speech '''' s entiment which lie was is the habit of mine. himself when in opposition viz., that the good faith 01 Me A country 'WM secure, and that there was no reason to ,d eg of the finances of the country. He had stated B°,,,lnie O bjections to the measure he (the Chancellor of tte xtacquer) proposed. He protested against the Ex eq,uerßills, but he reap (I;.d not understand the pro ae`se Meaning of his objernie.n. He said he thought it ',,essaryto redeem the unfunded. debt, and not to have recourse to. a loan—but., his proposition met both those atnad,s----(Hear, hear.) :He had objected to the principle nets measure. He (tlae Claanceltor of the Exchequer) h ., l ?ew it greatly depene.ed o a the temper of the public 1," .41 d; but, taking the who/ e of his measure together, he , e s a d in his hands . the powe'a from subscriptions made, to ' th'!ecur the'tnifundeddebr, and to raise the amount for had s ervice of the year.— (Cheers.) So far the measure th e s ucceeded. But he, was told there was danger in a e ' Plan he a d opte d . He. -allowed th ere was, b ut there were thens for d o i ng so.Lo rd Monteagle attempted to fund Ex .hflaer Bills throug'a the medium of public competition. ()tares large capitali s t s made proposals different from each k r) ",er, one o f w hi c h was the Bank of Engl an d, b ut h e d i d the s ucceed with either. He (th e Ch ancellor of the Ba li:00er) did not think the principle of competition was 1104 .'0 to the objections of the Right lion. Gentlemen op eil:te• lie conceiaad that all parties ought to have an equal p i . nee of partaking of any benefit that might arise from his I,o ° , l)° ,„,sitron. It would certainly be impossible to take th e from from one) man and, I,OOCL from another ; but thou the small cr.pitalist could come in and subscribe upon th e saint terms, as the pers on having a million, and on e a ; Present occasion many persons bad done so. He did sti ; I t hink it right to re t race the steps of Lord Mont tieTie,, who was not suce a essful in his a tt empt , an d i t 11 . 1 ,"t appear u nj us t to - ',;hose who cam e f orwar d i n the sot 'dietanee, to inak'a offers such as Government could if a a eeept. Did the Bight Hon. Gentleman think that %L, had offered a bonus of 18s. 9d. per cent. he could at i m mecl what he laad 'desired ? Certainly not. Why, j t ,, e .° Mr. S. Ric' : had. proposed the loan for the West l eta ti a larl a cenn Pensintion, he had offered a bonus of 31.185. per %i n ~ eut. be (th.e Chancellor of the Exchequer) by a com tttation of 'advantages had been enabled to make a tl en . i ter hargo'in for the public. The Right Hon. Gen tile a° thoinght that he (the Chancellor of the Ex ile:l.ll'er), had damaged the credit of the country by woul d terms which it was doubtful whether the public h is 'accept now. He had taken the best means in ri, It riftlWer to ascertain the terms which the public had lic e l... a . to expect, and he had made his arrangements to u agly. He thought it his duty to make this offer sa,ra, Public, little regarding whether the whole of the ills:. serlptioa was filled up so that lie could obtain suffi tit to accomplish his object. The Right lion. Gen itheaall had stated that he had offered ten per cent. less aana ° he h a d d one ten years ago when he had oc cup i ed the p et , e ° ffiee. No w , t h ese matters were subject to such or Aetual variation that it could not be matter of praise en 'maize that these arrangements had been concluded other;lu ore advantageous terms at one period than at an.. ti ned que:(but since that period the Government had ob ...t,he power of regulating the absorption of Exche varita.i:.eills„ so that they were enabled to obtain more ad tai ons term s than could have formerly been ob aefea",!: and he felt that it was better to stand there and advau°,. himself against the charge of having made too d e r en ' t faNiou s a bargain for the public, than to have to seaancienanTelf against the charge of having uselessly marl hard '7(l,the public money. Theßight Hon. Gentle- Ilan . said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) . posltitiourmlunodreur.stood him on one point as regarded the ira that nata nets taxes. What he had said was, exPenditureePrep.osing new taxes he must examine tho then, u.s - as well as the revenue, and that, if he should to he with go on Nithout the avenue, find it impossible state that the -welfare.pre . new taxes, he could imposition of no w s °- the country required the of the public on thetal s z u e bie e n a 4cl i aPral to - the good sense forward a crude and e were now to bring undi,i,'neeerted scheme of taxation, would he not be told b look into the czpenditur-7, ar,lll,Gentlemen opposite to woeln not bring dared the his plan of finance' until l ' : c . ered the subject, 80 Us to a, ~i had carefully consi bureeas if such ,iloulti, 113 h baeled to i oupose the new e" " necessary, in such 4 i,P thought they would, b atuaer as to produce tli EVEN IN sU N ai least amount of inconvenience. —(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman had forgotten what he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) had said when the question of the Sugar Duties was under discussion, He had than said that if time were given, the importation e : nor would increase ; and Coe'reveaue would increaSe hi conse quence ; and -such had been the case. He stood in a different situation, Trout the late Government; they had had 10 years to devote to the consideration of the subject. Ile had had no opportunity of f u ll y .eons i dering the questions of finance to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded, and he would not be driven to act without due preparation.—(l-Tear, hear, on the Ministerial benches.) He did not know that it Ivould be necessary for him to offer any further observations in reply to the Right lion. Gentleman. It appeared to him to be evi dent that the Right Non. Gentleman approved of the principle of hie plan, although he might object to certain details ; and he, therefore, thanked the Right Hon. Gen tleman for the support he had given him.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WILLIAMS said that he should be far from re commending the Right Hon. Gentleman the (Chancellor of the Exchequer) under any circumstances, to have re course to fresh taxation. He believed that the deficiency in the revenue might be easily made good, not by the imposition of new taxes, but by having recourse to a, system of economy which might be enforced with.oo detsiment t o th e pu bli c service. The means 'o 1 any f which tile Right H on . G ent l eman proposed to get out of his financial diffi cu l t i es m i ght appear to hir e ,. the easiest which he could adopt ; but it was precisely the mode in which every spendthrift CD .'- i tei . VOred to get rid of the ilifficulties into with-hi his . prodigality h a d led him. Fo r hi s part 'lie had heard the Right Honourable Gentleman's, proposition with great pain and regret. No reasoreable man could have expected to find that they ghoul' be called on to add so largely to the debt of the corantry after twenty-five years of peace. During the seven years which had elapsed since 1634, an addition bad been made to the funded debt of this country of 'a sum of 33,900,0001. o f w hi ch the annual interest " - arts 1,167,0001. The proposition of the Right Hon. gentleman would make the debt incurred since 18 34 ., amount in ail t o th e sum of 36,500,000 ; which .as at the rate of more than 5,000,00 C/ during each of the last seven years. He knew he would be told that twenty millions of that sum had been incurred for the purpose of purchasing the emancipation of the 'West India slaves, and that that sum had been devoted to a just and righteous purpose. That he believed was the opinion of the country; but he should say the tif the present generation so highly estimated that act, they might have borne the cost of it, and not throw the burden upon posterity. What could be more unjust or more dishonest, than that the present gene ration should contract a debt, the payment of which would devolve upon future generations. An end must conic to the system of adding to the national expendi ture during time of peace. They had, in the course of seven years, added 36,000,00 W. to a debt already ex ceeding 800,000,000/. Was there to be no . end to this accumulution of debt? Could any man suppose that this increasing weight could be borne for any great length of time, or that generation after generation would continue: to pay the interest of such a sum? He believed that no rational being could believe that the system could be pro longed. What was to be the end of it? When the end ' came, and come it would inevitably, it would be at tended with consequences which no human being could calcu late. But, instead of there being any necessity for im posing additional taxes at the present moment, lie hoped he should be able to show, and not from any speculative doctrines of his own, that by the adoption of a system of rigid economy, not only the whole of the present deficiency might be made up, but a considerable saving in the national income might be effected besides. The amount in the estimates of the present year of those four branches of the public service, the Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, and the Mis cellaneous, amounted to 18,949,000/ As he wished, however, to contrast the expenses of the service of the present year with the expenses of former years he would deduct the extra charges of the present year. He would deduct 400,0001. for China and 155,0001. for Canada, and the expenditure in the navy over the last two years, which amounted to 191,0001., making alto gether 746,0001. ; and that sum deducted from the amount he had previously named would leave for the four branches of the service for the present year the stun of 18,200,000/. Now, he did not think he could do better than refer to the last year when Hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office before. He asked, then, what difference there was in the circumstances of the country, as compared with the year 1830; which could make a difference in the expenses of the }public service during the two periods necessary. The expenses of the four branches of the service he had alluded tb amounted in 1830 to 15,860,0004 being less than the sum requlred for the present year, after making the deductions he had mentioned, of 3,330,000/. That would just complete the sum which the Right Hon. Gentleman wanted to add to the funded debt this year. He could refer the Right Hon. Gentleman to a still better example. During the years 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837 the expenses of the four branches under the late Government amounted in the average to no more than 14,148,0001., making a less sum than that proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. of 4,055,0001. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would only adopt the estimates of those four years he would have the deficiency of the present year, and of the four last years, almost entirely made up for him in one year. He should like to learn what there was in the peculiar cir cumstances of the country now which rendered so largo an increase in the expenditure of the four services ne cessary? He could point out no material difference in the circumstances of the country, compared with former periods, which imposed such a necessity either as re garded the state of public feeling at home or the state of our foreign relations. In 1830 a great convulsion had taken place in France, the consequences of which • man could foresee. In this country a great po-' • • 11 ° tho population ware in a most distracted can - 61 . r s4h state. In some di s t r i cts b oth l i fe and pr . - di&-sned secure. But what was the state of t' ...T7ity- were in present moment ? He believed th ate eseuntry at the isted in the country, and that eatereheater distress ex greater privations, than ha' at people were suffering .e teen ever kno wn i n t hi s country at any p er i o d o f was tranquil, and no . 4 , 'shistory ; b u t st ill everything With regard to o political disaffe c ti on was d i splayed. e ti nis a ld dm it it er for e i gn re l at i ons t h e Eastern queS svere upon all hands t o b e now settled. They • . te' her Majesty's Sp eec h at the commencement o to .scion " th a t th e causes which had for a time sh o e f rP t a b r e ' ... S te e d France from the o th er great Powers of Europe Al ceased." Canada was now in a tranquil state ; and ne would venture to assert, from his own observation of public feeling in that country, that if the same course was pursued hereafter in Canada, which had been fol lowed by Lord Sydenham, they would have that country firmly and honestly attached to this. Again, in the United States of America, he had no doubt but the questions that estranged that country from its good feel ing towards us, if affairs were properly managed, might be settled amicably : for he had reason to believe that the great body of the people of the United States—and they governed the country absolutely —were decidedly in favour of a continuance of amicable relations with this county. He also begg e d l eave t o po i nt out another branch j 0..‘; the public service in which a great reduction might be effected—namely, in the collection of the revenue. Re found that the amount of taxes collected last year amounted to 51,850,0004 and that the cost of the col lection, as appeared from a paper laid before Parliament, amounted to 4,280,0001., being more than 8 per cent. upon the entire revenue. Now such an expense would appear to him monstrous under any circumstances, but when he compared that charge with the amount of for mer years, it appeared to him a matter in which a very great reduction might be made. He found from a return made by the Treasury to the Finance Committee, that in the year 1806 the amount of taxes l ev i e d amounted to • upwards of 58,000,000/ e while the amount of the collec tion amounted to no more than 2,790,000/, being no more than 41 per cent. upon the whole sum. He should like to know what was the cause of the vast difference between the cost of collection then and its cost at the pre sent day. There was then 1,300,000/. less expended in collection than now, although the amount of collec tion was greater by the sum of 6,000,0001. Add then 1,300,000/. to 4,200,0001 excess in the public service, and they would have a sum of 5,500,0001., /which might be saved in the present year. That was not a mere speculative opinion. He gave it to them from data which were, he believed, quite unques tionable. Besides they should remember that, in 1806, when the collection amounted to no more than 2,790,0001. the value of money, as compared with the present day, was but 14s. or 13s. in the pound. This sum of 4,200,000/., the present cost of collection, never found its way into the T:reasury ; but every department put a finger in the public purse and took out• as much as was required for its own expenses. That Was a most objec could neve tionable system ; tend so lo ng as i t was cont i nued they effect any solid an d e ffi c i ent reduction. He said that such a system should be amended ; and he hoped the present Government would take the subject into its most serious consideration, and that they would adopt the p i lan whch h e b e li eved was in operation some fifty or sixty yars ago in this country (although he was not sure of the fact), namely, that of enforcing the payment of all revenue into the Treasury, and let ting the Treasury afterwards make a repayment of the necessary sums to the officers of the different depart meats. The House of Commons ought to have, then, before them to b e annually investigated. 4,(Hear,oo, He was aware th at t h at was a source of 200h0e/. hear.) l . a ) id great patronage to a Government, and he was also aware how they were pressed for such patro nage . H e did not speak of the present Government alone, but still he thought that the sum in question should be laid befor e the House among the estimates of the year, and without i wishing to cast any sort of obloquy reduction might e don the Government he would venture to say, that a vast effected in that department. He understood a that, before the time o f M r . Pitt' s Administration, collection, b u t th a t dering his Administration control was exercised by the Treasury over the th e a x t p e e n n n s t e r o ol f was entirely w ithd rawn . I h ave a very remarkablemmade b .) proof of the e ff ect o f t h at w i t hd rawa l i n a speech the late Duke of Buckingham, in the year 1837, lie said " Every office seems to be the Lord of its own will, and every officer seems . to h ave an un li m i te d power over the Purse o f t h e nat i on, instead of their being, as the Spirtt of the Constitution directs, under the constant eheok of the Treasury." He begged to read upon the same sub ject an extract from a digest of a Report of the Commis sion of Inquiry into the Excise Establishments. They say "that the charge of the collection for the revenue and the' payment of such revenue in its progress to the Treasury, amounted to 4,500,0001., which was obtained by stopping that amount out of the gross revenue in its progress to the Exchequer, or that that amount of the produce of the taxation was not paid into the Exche quer, contrary to the great principle of the Constitution, -which requires that the Exchequer should possess the moans of securing the legal appropriation of the money levied upon the public." Now, lie quite agreed with that Report, and he degreeth ohjectionable, and that it did en tail a vast expense, which he had no doubt was totally unnecess4ry. He did trust that the prose ,t piration of the financial year, and that five months had elapsed since that time, he did not think it was either just or proper for the .Ministry now to say that more time should be granted to them to make up their minds.—(Hear.) They attributed the distress to overtrading—to the Joint-stock Banks— bYeie Whbther it was one or other of these causes, or whether it was attributable to the Corn-laws, or a system of vicious Legislation, it seats agreed on all hands that it could not be removed except by an eestension of our manufactures and trade, which could only be effected by a large revisal of our fiscal regulations. The Right Hon. Baronet said the country ap proved of his conduct, because, before the election, he had stated what it would be—he (Mr. Wood) admitted the fact —the Right Hon. Baronet stated it before the dissolution ; but he (Mr. Wood) confessed he very much doubted the accuracy of the impression made upon the mind of the Hon. Baronet his declaration was very little known in the country. Last year Hon. Gentlemen opposite opposed the Budget, and talked loudly of their opposition to any addition to the Debt; but now they came forward and proposed the very measure they so much decried. After what had taken place last year, the country had a right to expect any other course from the Honourable Gentleman than the one they had taken. He admitted they had received the confidence of the country ; but they had received the support of the dif ferent bodies on very different g rounds.. The agriculturists in the counties gave their support in the confident hope of main taining the Corn-laws ; but no one could say for a moment that the support given to gentlemen opposite in the manufacturing districts was because of the attachment of the manufacturers to the Corn-laws. The verdict of the country was more against the men than the measures.---(Hear, hear.) Some deubted, however erroneously, the sincerity of the late Go vernment, while others doubted their power to carry the mea sures they had propounded, therefore they changed ; but they did not, grvetheir support to the Right Hon. Baronet, because he would do nothing for a whole year. He believed they give it more because they expected Hon. Gentlemen opposite would do more than the late Government. It was a gross fallacy to say that the sliding scale prevented fluctuations or protected the grower. Look et what had taken place only during the past week. When corn was high some time ago, the foreign corn was prohibited, and our farmers had none to give—they were prevented from taking advantage of the high prices.' fly -and-bye comes the harvest, but just before our farmers have their supply ready, the sliding scale suddenly admits one million and a half of quarters of corn, at the duty of Is., and so depriving him of his market by unnaturally re ducing the price. Every one knew that the high price of corn had no effect on wages. That was shown ever since 18.56. From that period corn had been gradually rising, while wages had been as gradually failing. But he was happy that that was now a feet admitted by the Noble Lord opposite (Stanley). No doubt the great difficulty was the' Core-laws. That was the question which defeated: the Budget of his Right Hon. Friend, far Mr. Handler frankly admitted that he supported the sugar monopoly merely as a defence for his own. Ile felt confident that some such measures must be forthcoming. No doubt the difficulties of the Right Hon. Baronet would be great, and it would require all the time between then and February to win over his supporters to such a course; but when party excitement abated, the feelings of humanity, which were largely possessed by the landed proprietors of England, would come into full play,, their eyes would become open to the fal lacies which they had been taught to believe—they must soon ' see that it was ridiculous to talk of the independence of this country for a supply. of food, when at least one million of quarters had been imported every year since the law passed. They must know that an increased population, without any in crease of production, must destroy independence, and then they would be actuated by a feeling of kindness to do all in their power to alleviate the distress of the country. If all that shoulJ be accomplished by the delay asked for by the Right Hon. Baronet, he would cheerfully acquiesce in it, as it would be one of the greatest of blessings ever conferred on the country. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER here made a few observations in explanation across the table, which did not distinctly reach us. We understood the Right Hon. Gen tleman to say that he presumed his Right Hots. Friend (Mr. F. Baring) had made his estimates in the usual way. He did not pretend to state beforehand what every item was likely to pro duce, but taking the amount of the revenue at stated periods, and balancing the deficiencies andthe increases, he could arrive at something like an approximation to the amount. — (Hear, hear.) With respect to corn, it was admitted in every discussion that had taken place upon the subject that what was received by way of duty upon that article was lost in others, and what was lost by corn was gained in the increased consumption of other articles. He (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had never thought of stating, in ignorance of wh a t the probable result of the harvest might be, what was the amount of duty to be derived from corn. As regarded the article of sugar in the last year, there had been a reduction in the amount of the duty of 163,000/. ; but upon the whole of the year, up to the present period, there had been an augmenta tion to the amount of P 20,000/. ; and in the course of the last four monehs the augmentation upon the sugar duties, amounted to nearly 300,9004, as compared with the corresponding period of feet year. Mr. F. BARING wisieed to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman expected to derive an additional revenue of 700,0001. from British plantation sugar, without making any alteration in the present rate of duties? The CHANCICLLOR of the Exeneoutre. and AI. C. WOOD MgCle a few observations, after which the resolution f or fund ing five millions of Exchequer Bills was put and agreed to. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, who stated that only half the amount bad beets voted in the last Session of Parliament, a sum of 10,626,3501., to be raised by Exchequer Bills, was voted to make good the esti mates voted for the service of her Majesty for the year 1841. The Howse then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. EVENING SUN i Mr. STUART WORTLEY sa i-4 there was gr ea t reason in what had fallen from the Right is on. Baronet who had j us t sat. down, an d h e trusted the Hon. ..Member for York would, tion of some difficulty to whose ineliseations it was repugnant e not, by p ress i ng hi s motion, place H on . Gentl emen i n a pos i-. to give a vote contrary to the principle of the instruction : which he wished to submit to the douse. Proposing to make bet of , ivech the wouled ffec any alteration in th e P oore l aw coul d on l y ha opening the que s ti on o f ot h er alterations, trhh n fact, undertaking to d o th a t w hi c h wou ld be imps, `sable for th e -s Government at present, name l y , to commence the entire die cession of that great and extensive question. Undt.7 . thews, circumstances he could net help thinking that it was b." n °a means an unreasonable request if the Hon. Member should . asked to give in on the present occasion andlet this great subject ' be discussed hereafter. He (Mr. S. Wortley) did not mean in the slightest to give countenance to that principle which the Hon. Gentleman meant to condemn—that principle which justified • separation of husband and wife to the extent to which it had been carried. But what the Right Hon. Mem ber for Dorchester said was perfectly true—that the separation of the sexes depended on the question as to whether they should collect large numbers of paupers into one U n i on. Therefore if they - discussed whether they would separate the sexes, they should, to deal fairly with the subject, go into the whole question.—(Loud cheers.) That appeared to hire as a good reason for adjourning this important and extensive ques tion. If the Hon. Gentleman persteted in pressing his in struction, it would be extremely empignant to his ( Mr. S. tVortley's) inclinations and feelings to jive any vote which would countenance a principle of the descohition under con sideration. Yet he confessed wider existing oircumstances. —(Cheers and laughter freva the Opposition benches:) He knew what that cheer meant, lie was unwilling, it was 01Thseds to face the question which the Hon. Gentleman was incloheel to place before the House, lest he should be placed in any eme‘r rassment with respect to her tlajeety's Ministers. That we.' not the case. He would take an opportunity of expressing his opinions fully on the subject, and he would not shrink from mak ing known to Ministers what he felt un the subject. He thought it desirable that they should, do one of two thine. - - either to proceed at once to the entire discussion of the Poor law, and ucal with it as th e y i n t en d e d. to d o at a future period, ' or else they should allow the question, together with those matters which would open the whole subject, _to remain at re s t until the period arri ve d a t w hi c h it appeared reasonable they should enter upon the consideration of the entire mea sure.—(Hear, hear,) If they allowed itiscussion on one point, they should allow it on all othere--( Hear)—the bastardy I clause—that regarding out-door relief, &c., and if the House was prepared then to enter upon the whole, why it might do so. But he thought the Right Hon. Baronet and his col leagues in office were justified, under the circumstances in which they arrived at power, in asking; for same lapse of tithe fur the purpose of considering a question of such importance is the Poor-laws, with the attention and care it required—a ques tion which the Whig Government of 1833 and 18j4 took two pars to consider, and respecting whitsh, certainly, th e p resen t asavernment had some right to demand a few months, with a view of considering it fully before they brought in a Bill to put • the measure he a satisfactory state. There was one instruc tion to which he did riot entertain these objections, and that was the first one which was proposed by the Hon. Member for Rt clulale, namely, " That it shall nch be lawful for the Com missioners, from the date of the pass'ing of this Bill, to declare the formation of any new unions in oestricts which are not al reo iy placed under th e o p erat i on o f t h e Act 4 and 5 Will. IV., c. 76. That instruction had reason and justice in it, indepen dent of the merits of the general question. The general ques tion reepecting the amendment of the law was at present in a state of suspense. Ile believed that those who were thoroughly interested in the question—those whom the future proceedings of the Commissioners might deeply affect, had fairly a right to ask, that during the period the question was to be put in suspense, the Commissioners should abstain front carryiug their operations further than they had been already carried. He, therefore, must say that towards the principle of that instruction he entertained a different opinion from that he had towards the others. He thought that so long as it should remain in that state of uncertainty in which it must be before a Bill on the subject was brought before the House—during that period he thought the Commissioners should not pro ceed to extend the Unions over other parts of the country. The districts which he had the honour of represent ing were deeply interested in that part of the subject ; and he did but his duty towards those districts when he said that they had a right to ask, that that question should be left in statu quo, as the case required, kr. V. SMITH said, he certainly felt for the embarrassed state in which the Hoa. Gente found himself, in being sud denlyealled on to take one side or the other on this important question. He (Mr. Vernon Smith) thought the course sum. gested by the lion. Gentle man un b ecom i ng the House. That Hon. Member'bid them waive the questions which were of most importatece—delicate and interesting questions--questions of weight and moment. But let them consider the questions which had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Rochdale. Now it appeared to him that they were not to discuss any great question this Session. So it had been said by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. The present was not, he thought, the only deviation from that regulation which would be attended with inconvenience. He conceived that this ques tion was one of such intense interest, that if they were not to. discuss the Corn-laws in conjunction with it they, - ought to separate it from that measure after the pro clamation ot those miraculous Ministers who were to advise nothing— they having nothing to advise the Crown.—( He ar , and laughter.) If such was to be the case, he thought the position of the Right hon. Member for Dorchester not an unfair one. But he must say, that the embarrassment of the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken was to be attributed, not to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, but to the course pursued by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the Rollie. It should be recollected, when Govern ment said they meant to continue all expiring laws from De cember, that the Poor-law required no continuance ; it was the Commission only which expired ; and when the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed the continuance of the Commission, he did not say for what time he meant to continue it. Would - it not be more manly if the Right Honourable Gen. tleman thought, that the Commission ought to last for five years, to have proposed that period at once , an d not to be potterzny with Parliament ,in such a way. The flight Hon. Baronet declared over and over again, that five years was the period that he wished the Commission to continue, and if he proposed that period there would be no difficulty in con trolling the Commission. He (Mr. V. Smith) did not mean to object to the proposal of the Right Hon. Member for Dor chester, but if any man was to settle the question, assuredly that Right Hon. Gentleman was the person. He (Mr. V. Smith) had lately read a speech of a Noble Lord elected for Monmouth (Lord G. Somerset), who made a sort of apology for having the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) and the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) in the Cabinet.—( Hear, hear.) He said they were very talented and able men, but as for himself lie regretted to see them in the Cabinet. He (Mr. V. S.) therefore extremely rejoiced to see the Right Hon. Member for Dorchester corning forward on the present occasion. If h,:. was called on to vote he should vote against l all instructions equally, in order that the whole object for 1 consideration would be the continuance of the Poor-law Com missioners. Upon the continuance of that commission they , •tht in his mind to be ca ll e d on to g i ve a decided opinion. "M b :- R. PEEL said he was sorry to see the Hon. Gentleman so MCI • excited on thi s s ubj ec t.—(Ch eers .) H e appeared . unable to calm his insubordinate indignation in the absence of his leader.— -(Cheers.) He (Sir B. Peel) b egge d l eave to acquaint him s hat it was intimated to him (Sir It. Peel) at an early period of te!'e present Session that the Noble Lord, the late o f &etc for the Colonial Department, h a d in tended e to introduce a Bill for the continuan c e Secretary t of the Poor-law until the` end of the next Session of Pallia... ment, and that the measure which he (Sir R. Peel) now pro move for lea, - posed was exactly in conformity wi :le that which the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) himself intended to introduce. Yes, it was intimated to him by the Member for the City of London, lately at the head of her Majesty's Govern ment, that it was impossible, in the oourse of the present Ses sion, to proceed to consider those tnt olifications in the Poor her, to which he had intended i o call the attention of the House, and that it had licen his intont ion, during the period of Isis tenure of office, to give notice of a Bill, for the purpose of continuing the Commission for the period of one year.— (Cheers.) That being notified to bins (Sir R. Peel) on the part of the late Government, it did 9/ -ear to him a reasonable proposal to make the same proposition ; and he was surprised that, on his making it, she Hon. Gentleman should have dis- P • lay •d so much unnecessary indignation.— (Cheers.) Mr JERVIS said he was at a loss to understand how what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman o pp osite co uld dissuade ti me oho were opposed to this measure from giving their op.. the views taken by the Hen. Member f or position to it. It might be a reason if the H on. Gentleman fairly represented Northampton, but it was no ,•! round whatever for calli ng open those who had formerly oppessed the law, or those who were returned for the express purpo se of so doing, for no w p ress i ng on the present Government this question, on which at all events, the Secretary . of State for us e Home Department, and ,17etnnxis of whim , every M em b er of the nt, must be prep are d to express opinion,athoe Members aoodf withth e Go thelfo urge thebeueemuse f necessityacquainted o c fur ne c etbses to Right Hon. B oronet could not info.. 'nation peculiarly within reach of the Governm en t as t ground fo. - delay, informa tion on this subject hero"as open to tell as It ~1 . 8 to the Go vernment.—( Hear. ) But his Hon. FriOOd (Mee V• Smith) did not apply his observations to the by the Noble Lord. His complaint was, that this r n en tl eTvin ß g i • gh th t ni as not a, Bill to Iv .introduced the Commission f c o o r nr fi ni v r e re y d ea w rs i , th ho th t e h ," o : l, 74 Bill to renew the Commission, but a Bill to renew ~`lie law; that he ought Lordandwihne now to be prepared to bring forward his meaa' sure boldly and openly, though he might alienate the support of . many lion. Gentlemen, the opponents of the measure, by whom he was brought into office. (H ear, hear.) He appre hended they had a right to call on Hon. Gentlemen opp e osite to • tell them h ow t h ey would deal with this measur and having opposed th e w h o l e -B ill, though he had never lent himself to excite the people against it, he would oppose the Government on the question, so long as they would not boldly declare their opinions upon it. He was happy the Right Hon. Gent. had said that this was something like the measure to be proposed by the Noble Lord (J. Russelll, for that would release the ilon: Member for Finsbury (t r. Wakley) from all his new engag e ments—(Laughter)—for it was certoi n that if it had beets e”_pro posed by the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Wakley) would haveose. ' posed it, as also would many other Hon. Gentlemen 0 1 , L v ' e t i, —( Hear, hear.) When the address to the Crown w asoadmitted the Hon, Member (Mr. Waliley) doubted whether it the ques tion existence of the distress in the country, and i a t p i u M admitted tion to the Right Hon. Barer:et, Who stated then not time be the prevalence of great distress. Had they t____ s increasing, tween that and winter, w h en distress :a peop l e were and when, in consequence, thousanodts of time to spare ground to the dust—had they not recreations, to from their ehooffiefa and hunting distress ? He spoke not inquire at least into ill.' causes of that s vhich it was said time should of the great financial a s uLsti r ofnadministering relief by which be afforded, but of that moo. e ?;stress was greatly increased.-- it was supposed by some that e e r mation required or not ? or (Hear, hear.) Was further int, r two main principles which had they not to deal with the ono _e rabi.. . m , ) had contested, step the Right Hon. Baronet (••ie.hia(tei late-Mott.' her for Nottingham, by step, with Mr. Walter, t he Oe the Right .Hon: Baronet said and beat him on them ? W hen was a neeess ' consequence of that the separation of the sexes a s tion was he of persons in one instils. , assembling a large body not aware that this assembly Ito was owing to the ref use grant out-door relief? obtain relief;the poor were obliged to sell any furtmeurc ' they might possess to enter the workhouse, thereby taking fron t them the means of returning to their homes—when this was considered, and the distressed stete of the poor was de.. ploi •ed in . that House, but not remedied—when all this was e ensidered, was it too much to call upon the Right Hon. Bart t o enter upon the consideration of th e su bj ect ? And would it satisfy the people to k now th a t Hon- G entlemen oip scan ted time to inquire i n t o w h a t t h ey had uniformly po°siedte' out of office, and on which th e y h a d excited th n— -3 - e people to remedy which, when in office, they had not the c • ourage to un dertake the responsibility ?—( Hear, hear, f • Peel.) He understood the Right Hon. Baronet'stom Sir Robert the Right lion. Baronet could not accuse h' cheers, bait constituents on the subject. He had never aidind of exciting his the subject at all.—( Hear, hear.) Re had ressed them on opposed to the measure, but he had s been uniformly corned to use it for the purpose of exciting the people. He had scorned means of his advancement out o f the Ho r u to make it the from the respons ibili ty o f opposing it there if r, and to shrink it were the means of annoyance to the party with which he was connected. The only excuse that could be made for separating the House at that period of the year was, that it would be convenient for the present to forget the distress of the peo Hearle.— h r Itlr3 PAKINGTON said he would Fs ( e.). not enter into the in structions moved by the Gentleman opposite, neither would THE SUN, 1' ET ESDAY SEPTEMBEIZ 28, 1.341. merit, looking at the diflicri.' was placed—seeir— " ation 11^' in which the itOilittry enat the last attempt to inercese tat -a peen a complete fallure-=taeing gmpoeition of fresh tattee., , whith.elAi laPected to pro daee a sum o£ not is 2,500,0001., had not only &Hod lee:Ming that sum, but had actually been cc •o42Vied with a falling off in taxation as compared with the preceding years. He was aware that the present Chancellor of 'the Exchequer might say that he bad found the Treasury in an embarrassed position, and that as he was not the author of that embarrassment; its had a right to be placed in a Cleat plasition. The Right Hon. Gentleman would have a right to use that argument if he and Ids party had not coincided with the late Go vernment in all their most expensive undertakings. Noe he (Mr-Williams) had Ro hesitation in saying that many of the acts of the late Government, in dealing with the public ,money, had been most extravagant and wasteful;• but in every one of those acts, with the excep tion of a single one, the party opposite supported the late Government, and they had therefore no right -to complain of the present calamitous condition of the public funds. He would also remind Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that when the late Administration had pro posed to get rid of the public difficulties by a great change in our commercial legislation—whe t they pro posed to make a large addition to the revenue, while, at the same time, they were about to relieve the wants of the people—Hon. Gentleinen opposite interfered, and prevented those measures of the late Government from being carried into effect. They were, therefore, bound at present by an imperative duty, to endeavour to make up the present deficiency by retrenchment and economy, and not to add to the national difficulties by the imposi tion of fresh taxes. He considered that it was a dis grace to the present generation, that, after 25 years of peace, they should be adding to the permanent debt of the country,, while they imposed upon posterity the penalty of their prodigality.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Ho should therefore move the following amendment to the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman :—" That after twenty-five years of peace it was inexpedient to add to the funded debt the amount of the deficiency in the revenue to meet the expenses of the present and the four preceding years, and that such deficiency might and ought to be made good by the observance of a rigid economy and retrenchment in the.public service." Mr. GREENE objected, to the motisu of the Hon. Mem ber for Coventry upon a point of form. We understood the Hon. Gentleman, who spoke in a •very indistinct tone, to ground his objection upon the fact of no notice having been given of the motion. Mr. WILLIAMS admitted the ynlidity of the objec tion, and would withdraW his motion. Dr. BOWRING was glad the lion, Member for Co s-entry had called the attention of the House to the sub ject of the great expense incurred in the collection of the revenue. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read a Parliamentary Return, from which it appeared that sum of more than 6,000,0001. were annually spent in the public offices without the sanction of Parliament. Until that stun was placed under the control of Parliament, they could have no security for its being properly expendod. He hoped the Government would take care to economise to the utmost, and not indulge hinny useless or wasteful expenditure. Colonel SIBTITORP wished the Hon. Member for Bolton bad, during the last seven years, been as anxions to prevent wasteful expenditure as he appeared to be at peesent. There was one article hi particular of wasteful expenditure to which he had repeatedly drawn the atten tion of the House, and he could not but regret that the Hon. Member for Bolton had not inculcated on his friends the necessity of reducing it ; but, perhaps, that would have been coming too near home, Ever since the present Ministers had been in office it seemed to him as ! if there had been an attempt at something like bullying them, but they were too strong to be under any appre hensions, He had the most implicit confidence in them, and, therefore, he should support the propositions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer against any amendment that might be proposed.. Mr. HAWES said that the Ministers, by asking a supply, were asking the highest mark of confidence the House could repose in them. Now he was not inclined to repose any confidence in them, and he believed that the expectations which they had raised would never be realised. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government had stated as a ground for asking this mark of confidence that he would bring forward no measures that he did not believe to be fur the public benefit, or were not sanctioned by his own consmentous feelings. He (Mr. Hawes) had no hopes of any great measures, either of commercial or of financial reform, from her Majesty's present Ministers. Let the House look at the on n r e thess e d s b u y b je the o f d t i h ff e e a e w n s ile a r s s u o b f j e t c h t e of G theo v various and conflicting opinions which had been ex pressed n e g r r n e m a t e e n s t t importance—involvin g the future peace and wel fare of the country, and one .wnich had long attracted almost undivided public attention.—(Hear.) The Right Hoy. Baronet the Member for Dorchester, in addressing his constituents, had said that he regarded a fixed duty on corn as a measure • to which the whole commercial world was looking as a relief from their distresses as an absolute • — l - •T impoeei .1 ity ; while the ?as ter-General of the Ordnance, no _inconsiderable member of the Government, was all in its favour end regarded a small fi xe • d duty as a p anacea. The Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and ForeSfa said he thought th e , sliding sc a l e m i g h t be alters ". h d the Noble Duke wh o hell]. •th e with a vantaere ; w e e Privy Seal had, since he had taken office, dedeteed to thefarmers of Buckingham shire, that he won'''. 1 panne by the law as it was—th a t h e . would maintain that he we the sliding scale in its present state— not el - ~ o ld sanction no backslidin g , an d th at h e h a d - • i n • aanged his opinions ; and, in 1839, he had stated, his place in the -House of Lords, that in his opinion the present law was the best that could be devised.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Thus . there were two more members of the Government differing in opi nion on this important point. The Noble LoAg the Member for North Lancashire said 'that the effrn•law was justifiable, not simply be cause it ra i se d rents, which the Noble Lord admitted it did, but on high grounds of national policy. The Noble Lord had not, however, stated what those grounds were, and he. (Mr. Hawes) should be most glad to hear them debated. But what said the Noble Secretary for Ireland—did he treat the Corn-law as involving great questions of national policy? - No; he said that undoubtedly it was a landlord's question, and that he should like to know why the landlords of the country had not as great a right to . have their 'interests protected as any one elk.. So much for the peace and unanimity of the united Cabinet.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth was tied to no opinion' op the subject. He took credit to himself for being as free .as - the wind, and therefore he hoped, perhaps, that he might be able to reconcile the discordant elements of which his Cabi net was composed.-4 Hear, hear.) Now, for what did the Right Hon. Barohk Claim tinie.? No one ask e d t o place a Bill up on the .fable 'Of the House on any one subject. The Governinentivhitkliad preceded his had frequently done that evAide , t)te e ßigebt Hon. Gentlem an was• asked to do. IVhen.leard G rr.y - s,"Government c ame into offi ce , w hi c h an autumn sitting, that Noble Lord, when pres4d-feteinfermetion, had given an assurance that he intended to introduce a measure of Reform which should be' full and satisfactory, and he had also stated that he had rot held the seals for three hours before he had been pressed to give the details of the measure he intended to propose. Another great Minister, for whose authority the Right Hon. Gentleman had a great respect, had:also pursued a course very dif ferent from that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Ministry of Mr. Fox, in 1783, had been turned out on the India Bill. It had been introduced on the 18th of November, had been rejected on the 16th of December, and on the 12th of December Mr. Pitt had taken office. Parliament re-assembled on. the 12th of January,.l7B4, and on the 14th of Jelluary - Mr. Pitt had laid his Bill on the table. The course taken by the Right Hon. Gen tleman on the present occasion was ono eminently cal culated to endanger the peace of the country, and when the Right Hon. Gentleman asked for delay, on the ground that he would bring forward no measure of the propriety of which he was not fully satisfied, he (Mr. Hawes) must say, however painful it was to make the observa tion, that he (Sir R. Peel) was the last man in the House who ought to ask for delay on such grounds, be • cause if there was an instance of a statesman coming for ward to proposelneasures, to the principles of which he had previously offered the most violent opposition, the Right Hon. Baronet was that, statesman.—(Cheers.) Hopes had been engendered of commercial and financial refOrms, which had boon blighted by the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had not thought fit to refer to former debates. In those debates the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that he could easily refute certain statements which he (Mr. Hawes) had made. The Right Hon. Gentleman however, had not thought fit to do so, and he (Mr. Hawes) should he glad to meet the Rightilon. Gentle man on that ground. The Budget of the late Ministry had been misrepresented. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in bringing it forward, had distinctly given the House the option of two alternatives— either to increase the revenue by the adoption of mea sures of commercial reform, or to fall back upon an in crease of taxation. The Right lion. Gentleman had never stated that he expected to realise all the advantages of his proposals within one year, • and he had stated that if he did reap all the advantages he expected from his scheme he should himself propose fresh taxation or an issue of .Exchequer Bills. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had suceeded in defeating that scheme,,and now he fell back upon the clumsiest of all 'contrivances—that of raising money by loans ; for, disguise it as they would, it was a loan, and the first act of the. Right Hon. Gentleman's Administration was to increase the public debt—(Hear, hear)—and it surely was not unreasonable,. when such a proposal was made, to ask how it was pro posed to pay the interest of the debt thus proposed to be incurred.. If he were simply stating his own opinion the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite might say that from their station they were better fitted than ho was to judge of the propriety of delay, but he had . authorities to which the Right Hon. Gentlemen paid deference. Mr. Deacon Hume had stated before the Import Duties Committee that lie considered the duties on food tended to undermine the nmanufactures of the ' Country, Mid that their continuance would a severe trial to the manufacturing prosperity of the country. He also gave it as his opinion, that those duties were. under mining the public revenue, by drying the. sources from which it was derived. In 1835, before - the Hand-loom Weavers' Committee, Mr. Gardi ner had said that if • w e lost a • market one year we' lost it al together ; and, therefore, • it was not well to trifle with trade even for a year. Upon those grounds he called upon Right 'Hon. Gentlemen opposite to tell what they meant to de.7---.(Cheers.) He did not ask for specifi c details, but at least he had a right to k now upon they intended to tr ea t t h e C orn-laws--- hat principle what measures of commercial or fi nanc i a l reform the country was to expect, or if. it w ere t o expect any at all. : The 11l ' Hon. Ci rail( me sa!i, th.( sugar had increased. He believed the Right lion. mistaken; and thatat the endof time b en, Gentleman was mi year it would be f ound that the consumption, in propor- W#V r '''? .4 " . ` s4l ` - r - ~F. ,:e::'~'f' . _ ~~, ~= tiort to the popts( - 4fon had deetensed.. Tito Right Hon. it, gentlentaii had liken n fe* months of the year in which ths ii'dOArqtis;i4 iint;-;dlS+a*S,V liiies , ;eit;.;ansi ,tIi9JA • he had based his calculations.if tliej4Cie S;;etreet the aeonialy would be presented :of an increase of consumptls';'n in a necessary of life, taking place because it had become more costly. ' The' Hand-loom WeaVers' Commission connected eett,ci composedwithi r g i e o n ue t s l o c i; i i i n i e n ertee o sd f ts t l. h vi e toh g e r te e j a l eo te f s h t tiih t u a eic le i tol and Commi ssioners Ittresely g and dommerCial interests, and another of tneiii Mail Ld con nection with these interests whatever. Now, shat was their opinion as to the propriety of settling these questions? Did they thinit there was no chance of public . disquie tude ? Quite different. The lion. Member, then read an extract from the Report to the effect that distress tended to depreciate the character of the poor, and to create ie them a desire for organie changes. Yet the Right liori.Barotiet proposed to leave the COthitry to the operation of such causes for a period of four months. Having so much of the address as acknowledged the peo ple's distresses, he proposed to dissolve Parliament without propagating one single measure for their relief. He (Mr. II.) believed that the people would not be sa tisfied with such a state of things. Ho believed that by such a course the Hon. Baronet was doing more to en courage Chartism than had been done by any other pub . trifasrhare, The net : lie man.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial appeared,ed by as their tthe G c3f over p n i es , :e ae nla ( s u t e h a e r basi i s ie o a f r. i ) ts poHlicey. had • benches.) At present there was no intelligible principle as only object had been the s ß h a o r u o h n i et h , e in sa r id efe t ie nce to the Cefrn-laws. heard with satisfaction a statement of the Right b i .B e le g aronet had asked whether it would not belsetter with respect to the Corn- laws, until the plan had been fully prepared ? from that they 'night fairly infer th at t h e w h o l e quest i on o f the Corn-l aws would • be taken into consideration by the Government. He would be glad to know from the Right llon. Bart. if such was his meanieg He confessed, looking at the coarse taken by the Government, it Wits one against which he felt bound to enter his strong pro test. He would content himself with simply sityine*" No," to the motion, b ecaus e he knew what would' be the result of a division. He could not allow the oppor tunity to pass without expressing his regi'et at the it difference manifested bas the OnVernitielit Td the - distrees which existed; said a dotirst of policy Whiclrhe thought likely to Ornate general dissatisfaction. Mr. EWART said, he held in his hand' a deCument which he had received that day from a resident in Manchester, containing, en atcount of the 'Member of miles entirely at It etniid, d 3 *tit ae tko§e. only partially it Work in several of the manufacturing dis tricts. It was dated the 24th of Septencibeionly three days since. In Manchester, et milli entirety di it stand there were 17 ; in Stockport and the neighbourhood ', 17 ;in Bolton, 7 , Bony and the neighbourhood, 4 ; in Oldham, Q ; hi Bhilese'alieidge fins. neighbourhood, 8 ; in Itediciale, 3 ; and 11 scattered through the Mille district. Of those only partially at work there were in Manchester, 10 ;in Bury e Steekaidit ; i 4 j iii Bolton, 6 ; and in Tcri,ttaii, 5„ The only dem an d at present wits rntil RuSsia. That demand would soon caste. and then they would bte depending upon India and China. The state of our rele,tidiis•irlth the letter country forbade any hope fruits that quarter. Id Siifili it • state of things he must say he was astonished at the course pursued by the Government. An extension of trade was the only remedy fbr the Wowing distress. The Right Hon. Gentleman, (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had justly stated, that the sugar trade had improved. Bat was the price of sugar what it ought to be 2—Ulcer, hear.) 'Certainly not; and the expiration of the treaty of Broil afforded an excellent oppottoriity of Making ad ;alteration: All the -ConimitttleS which had sat upon the commerce of the country had been in favour of an - extension of'com merce, and it could not long be resisted.. He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet should appear .to wait for circumstances, instead of coming forward and boldly stating What measures he would propose. It appeared to him that the Government had in it the elements of disorganisation, If other Governments tottered to their fall, this tottered at its formation. Mr. SCOTT said, that in the borough which he re presented, viz., Walsall, public distress was greatly on the increase, and under these circumstances he pro tested against the question of the Corn-IaWS being locked out of the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer . It was a question of vital importance as affecting the in terests of the country. Whether or not the Chancellor of the Exchequer succeeded in raising a revenue suffi cient for the expenditure, still would the Corn-laws re main to be considered for the interest of trade and com merce,----(Hear.) The state of the country, as admitted on all heads, was deplorable ; hundreds were thrown out of employment, and if this state of things should con tinue it would be impossible to see the result. He hoped he was not trespassing too long upon the House, but he could not but request the Right Hon. Baronet to give his most speedy and casrnest consideration to the distresses of the country.—(Hear.) Sir R. PEEL said it was from no disrespect to Hon. Gentlemen opposite that he adopted the course which he was pursuing, but he deemed it necessary that her Ma jesty's Government should bete an opportunity ofconsider ing the present condition of affairs, with the aid of that information derived from the tenure of office, and that they should be allowed time to submit their measures to Parliament; and that he should bring forward his mea sures at once, or abstain from doing so altogether, and not give a " glimpse," as the Right Hon. Gentleman op posite had required, of his intention. He said the other night he did not perceive the advantage of adopting such a course. He thought such a course would be more likely to mislead and deceive than anything else.—(Hcar, hear.) The Member for Dumfries had imputed to a Noble Duke force of character, and to him (Sir R. Peel) a power of mind which he did not possess—(Hear)— and that it was very rare to meet in the same individual intellectual power and force of character. If it were true that his panegyric was deserved, and that those two qualities were rarely combined in the same individual, yet it was some consolation to know, that if not com bined in the same individual, those attributes were to be found in the sense Administration.--(Cheers.) The late Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech seemed to think that the present Government had charged the late Administration with laxity of principle' and profligate expense, and he must say it was one main part of Go vernment that its public character should depend on the expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)—on the in fluence they exercise on foreign countries—on the mea sures they may feel it their duty to resort to ; and it was quite impo ss ibl e f or any G overnment to exercise an efficient control with a large deficiency of reeenue.—, (Hear, hear.) • Government was responsible' for its policy, and there could be no doubt that the expenses connected with that policy made part of its, responsi bility; and any opposition which did not resist measures which the honour and interests of the country might re quire to be resisted, would not be doing its duty, - though they might under peculiar circumstances sanction the de tails of those measures. It was the duty of .;tlae oppo sition to censure the policy that led to the expenditure, and it would be quite inconsistent not to challenge the expenditure after the policy had been blamed.—(Heir hear.) The two things were perfectly reconcilable. The Hon. Member for Coventry, in comparing the estimates of 1830 with the estimate of the into Government had said that those of the Duke of Wellington's • Govern ment, making every deduction for the late Government on account of the expenses incurred in China, Canada, and other places, were less than those of thelate Go vernment by 3,200,00e1. Mr. WILLIAMS-2,200,0001 Sir R. PEEL—And yet after all the Right Hon. Gen tleman was willing to give hie support to the ,late Ad ministration and to withhold it from the present. He would have no confidence in the presents Administration. Mr. WILLIAMS said he - had expressed no opinion on the subject. Sir R. PEEL did not care so n ucb for the,opinien of the Hon. Gentleman as for those decisive proofs which he had given of that opinion.—(L ou d c h eers .) ' It seems he had some conclusive reasons of his . own .for-not de pending on his (Sir R. Peel's) Government. He says that a reduction of 5,000,0001. may be made in the expenditure of the country. Sitilpose he was right, he ought not fo deny to men entrusted with, the functions of Government, an opportunity of considers ing how far they could approximate to that ,reduction. If; should give an opportunity of conzitierinn• ivhether lie was right, because if lie were even within 5o per cent., it was quite clear the deficiency could be inadq,Ap withr, out having recourse to fresh taxes.—(Cheers.) lie con curred with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thinking it would be prejudicial to the 'Abb.:elf they were made to believe that such a reduction would been - lade. He be e , lieved it to be impossible. All he would now promise was—what it was right alone that a Minister should pro mise—that there should be a careful review of the esti mates—of what the public interest may require at the present tithe ; and that whatever reduction could be made consistent with the public requirements he was satisfied would be made. The attempt should be made, but it would be extravagant to make any promises without knowing what those interests may require.—(llear.) With regard to the revenue collected , the Hon. Gentle man alluded to the number of collectors, and the sums that all Ralilollitenshonou.lGdedno: these officers had . fees which were obligeddbe relin quished, tfothreecollect the as being found disagreeable odious to the paid to them ; but be should recollect thtaot formerdy public. Their salaries were increased in consequence, said that week after t t a i l l ' e l o t m i l d a tt e m ; d e i b e d e t de scription he had given of the state so .. country when n tw o t lt , eh of course , hoeuladp phr e 0 gbe :approbation o e oic ofm week the country was becoming more distressed; that em ployment was becoming more scarce, and debts with mote he had first come into office. •He difficulty recovered ; that a universal stagnation of com merce was taking place,. and that greatestlac despon dency prevailed when he (Sir R. that in come into office. He (Sir R. Peel) admitted in that important f tu branch of commerce—the cotton manu_an re—great de pression did exist ; but he cautioned Hon._.?entlemen against making exaggerated statements.—(Beat, not to hear.) ot They were only calculated to inflame, to relieve. for the —(Hear, hear.) And it was important ..e peace of thh truth should be Is' eid—(Hear country—not that the • hear) b u t that too high a colouring should not be given to it.—(Cheers.) This course he meant t o nn , pursue SO Or det ailed —.to institute inquiry upon every ca distress that came before the notice of the Hoiise through Hon. Member s . —(Hear, hear.) He w ould apply th e m ean s placed at hi s disposal by Government_ the purp ose o f investigating such cases of distress as demanded in quiry.—(Hear, hear.) But if these were vague unde fined desc r ipti ons it would be impossible to make th a t inquiry. Th e ot h er n i g ht the Hon. Member for Ashton, net only ga ve a general account of the , 'distress e a state of the c oun t r y, b u t he made !tent of a particular instance which he (Sir B. Peel) listened to with the utmost attention. He i was xv.. r e llP., l l9d to hat 2 said thathe met a working. man who to ,a 0 looking forforwork having been throw n ,em Piesiitent. The HUI'S lalemher, he (11.1r.. Ilindley? to.i ou, d- loin he lutist' gc on the pari s h. The poor man saidhad been them:. (the pafisli lads ligyston, near Oldham)—and that he received only ri-lieek for the support of his fa mily, which consisted of five pereeii.e He (Sir Robert Peel),.thonght it his duty to inquire intd that akritement, and he received an answer f rom one o f th e Magistrates of that vi ' the fellowing effect, viz., that the Magis trates of Royston IYair attention called to the case alluded to, which appeared in a. aVeneeig in the Times, newspaper, and being read in presence and two brother Magistrates, the overseers said it was untriie, and that a single instance .like the case described did nor oesctic its tt 4i4r). , et of 60,000 inhabitants in Lan cashire and Yorkshire. The writer then said that no case of the kind came within his oiaservation.—(Lond cheers.) They could not inquire into cases of a vague description, but the House would concur with him in the propriety of Hon. Members abstaining from bringing forward cases of that description, unless they were borne out by fact's that came under their cognizance, and of the correctness or which they were satisfied.—(Cheers.) He admired the patience and long-suffering of the working classes, which he thought was a bright feature in the national character, but he thought they ought to be cautious from that example in listening to statementa of that kind mit founded on fact.—(Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON did not rise for the purpose of making any objeetion to the particular proposition of - the . Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he was ready to admit that if Government did not get the vote that Session, which they pro posed to the House, for the purpose of making good the deficiency in the revenue—if they did not get a vote to supply the deficiency of the country, by relax ing the commercial code, by giving a fresh development to the industry of the country, and by taking off some of those fetters which confined that industry—he said he was ready to admit that the course now -adopted may have an the effect of iinediately , driVing Government to lay on fresh taxes. But, at 'the same time, he trusted it would mark the course of tile Government, which re turned to Parliament with a majority ; aud would show the country, which had returned them there, that it was paying 2,500,0001. for its gratification.—(Cheers.) The price which the country would have to pay for the gratification of having the Hight Honourable Gentleman and his Colleagues in power would be nn addition of two-and-a-half millions to the debt of the country ; anti he trusted that the country'in the results Would not find theta - itid dear at the price.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was perfectly prepared with ilia Right. Hon. Friend to agree to the couveo proposed by her Majesty's present Ministers, as being, under the cir cumstances in whiCh they stood, the least of the evils Of wide!' they mold make selection, but having said that, he must repeat, that lie could not but express his entire disapprobation of the general course the Government seemed determined to follow.—(Bear, hear.) It was pal:fedi:a true that it would be unreasonable to expect that the Goveftlffient should now come down and State in detail the system of increiteed taxation by which they hoped in the ensuing year to make the expenditure and Income equal. He was in hopes that they had now got ri GoVeritneent. that could forte' future events, for he would assert that they must be able to ale so in order to make the expenditure equal W the income of the country, - -(Hear, hear.) He quite agreed that it would be un feastniable now to call upon the Hight lion, Baronet to dale: life bOiti'st lie intended to pursue, assuming that the Governifiellt lied Mad& up their minds as to that course, If they were to undersitatki that the Government had made up their minds, then one tlitemlou which they had all asked had been answered.—(Hear, helm) They had a right to ask the question—not what detailed measures they intended to propose, but whether they intended to make up the deficiency that existed by proposing fresh taxes, or whether they intended to do at by relaxing the presaitit cotrunercial system, by increasing the comforts Of the people; arid by giving a fresh stimulus to the contra - Weil liiildchhitry7--(Hear, hear.) Upon that question he 6.4stlfd kalniersten) could not admit their plea for delay. Upon that question they turned out the late Government, and they did eta without necessity—.(Hear, 'hear, and laughter.) The present Government, he would venture to say,idid not go. to the division on that question without having made up their minds as to the substitute they intended to propose, and considering the time that had chinned, he thought they had no excuse for no t b e i ng a bl e t o s tate pl a i n ly to the country whether they adhered to the doctrine they laid. down upon the discussion of the sugar duties.—(ilear, hear.) That question affected so deeply the great in terests of the country that it had a right to know what the Government intended to do upon it. That there .would be a deficiency was admitted as a certainty, because the right lion. Bart. who spoke last had acknowledged that whatever reduction he might hope to make would not go to the extent of equalizing the expenditure, with the revenue. —( Hear, hear.) When they were told that the large expenditure was the fault of the late Government h e must beg to remind the House that with respect to the ex penditure of the army and navy they had bean constantly urged by the other side o t the House to increase their expenditure in those two departments instead of diminishing it • and, there fore, if any char g e w a s t o b e ma d e aga i nst the late Govern ment it must be one of being tardy in expending the public money, and not one of being lavish of it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Upon those two heads of expenditure he thought the Govern ment would not be able to make any reduction ?—(Hear, hear.) He must press upon the Government, if they should think it consistent with their duty to make any reduction in the naval force of the country, to do it upon the consideration of the country alone, and not in conjunction with any foreign country.—( Hear.) With respect to the question of commer ciab policy the Government intend to adopt,he thought, before Parliament separated, the House and the country ought to be informed of the course the Government intended to pursue.— (Hear, hear ) The question of the Cern-laws, in his opinion, imperatively called for consideration. Upon that question, however, the country was quite in the dark as to what the in tentions of the Government were.—(Hear, hear.) Those in tentions were only to b e wiles:tett by what had fallen from dif ferent members of the Administration, when addressing their constituents. Upon that question there was evidently dis union in the Cabinet—upon that question there was a thing that could not be concealed.—(Cheers and laughter.) That being the case. the Cabinet bring disunited on that great question, it was but fair to give :hem tine to conic to one epi-. nion or the other.—(Hear, and laughter.) The country ought to wait a decent time to give the Ministers an oppor tunity of coming to some decision; but there was a limit to that period, and he (Lord Palmerston) did not think the decision of the Cabinet ought to be put off to be the subject of Christmas revels.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) If it was necessary, in order to.' , enable the Government to come to a decision on the Corn-law question, that time should he given them, lie thought that Parliament ought to meet again at the latter part of tke autumn.—(Hear, hear.) One of the first duties of the Government was to attend to the interests of the country and to consult its feelings.—( Hear, hear.) But then it was said that the distress was exaggerated, and that the meetings that had taken place day by day, on the subject of that distress were only the means by which party spirit was displa 3 cd.—( Hear, hear.) There could he no doubt that there was great distress in the country, and that that distress was owing to the Corn-laws, and lie (Lord Palmerston) must, therefore, say, that in decency the Government ought not to postpone the announcement of their intentions on the great question of the Corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.) He knew something of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and from his knowledge of -him, he could not, until he saw Par liament prorogued without any announcement of the inten Lions of the Government, believe that he would adopt any such course.—(Hear, hear.) He would never believe that the - night Hon. Baronet would prorogue Parliament to February, 'leaving the country. in a feverish state of agitation upon so important a question as the Corn-laws, and taking upon him self all the responsibility of anything unpleasant that might happen. Without offering the slightest opposition to the mea sures, and without pressing the Government unfairly, he would intreat the Right Hon. Baronet to use all the powers he pos sessed to bring the Cabinet to some decision one way or other in the course of the autumn. If the decisi on o f th e G ove r nment was to stand by th e C o r n -l aws as they at present existed, all he asked was, that they would let the country know it, in order that they might make up their minds to it—(Hear, hear)— and in order also that the agriculturists might have the con solation of knowing that the Corn-laws would remain as they were. If, however, on the other hand,.the Government thought they could snake some alteration in the graduated scale, then, he asked them to let the con'umer - know that fact.—(Hear, i hear.) In his opinion it was a mistake for the landowners to tsuppose that the Corn-laws were a benefit to them—they were no such thing; at all events, the present uncertainty was injurious to every body.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that when the time for the prorogation came they would either be told what course the Government intended to pursue, or that they_ intended_ to call P ar li amen t t oget h er i n the begin ning of November, in order then to state what their inten tions were.—( Hear, hair.) • Mr. FIELDEN then proceeded to address the House, but in so low a tone as to render it almost impossible to catch a single sentence that fell from the lion. 11:lenib,r. We, how ever, understood him to say that the manufacturers in Oldham were in so distressed a condition that they were obliged to work their mills for short time, and that they did so more out of con. sideration for their men than themselves. But notwithstandin g this distress, their taxes and burthens were increased.. The state of the manufacturing districts was such that something must he done, and he tru'tcd, therefore, that when the Right Hon. Baronet made inquiry on the subject, he would do it in a manner that would afford relief to the distressed. Mr. C. WOOD believed that the statements of the Hon. Member for Oldham were most true, that a large portion of the mills were working short time, and that more from consi deration to the working men than for the profits of the ma nufacturers. They looked to the measures proposed by the late Government as the sole means of enabling them to carry on their trade, and thereby give employment to tneir workmen. He conceived, with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Baring), that the explanation of the Right Hen. Chancellor of the be chequer had rendered the proposed financial transaction less clear than it before appeared. It appeared simple, until he told them the funding of the Exchequer Bills was his main ob ject. If so, in what manner did he propose to obtain his ways and means for covering the deficiency ? According to the terms offered to the public, it was impossible for him to tell, until March next, whether the public would give him Exchequer Bills or money. How, then, was he to provide his ways and means? His Right Hon. Friend, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposed to obtain twenty-two minions from the Customs, exclusive of sugar and corn.—(No, no.) Oh, that included the sum of 500,0001. from corn. Well, he would be glad to know what amount the Chancellor of the Exchequer an ticipated in the present year from sugar ? The last Government estimated the sum to be obtained from that source at 700,000 S :, and it was ad m itt e d th a t t h at was a low estimate—that it would amount to 900,0001., but not by the admission of fo reign grown sugar, but from the importation of an increased quantity from our own colonies, both east and west. The maxim 'of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year was " Let well alone," meaning that our colonies would produce to the revenue as much as if the foreign sugar was ad m itt e d at a lower duty. The Right Hon. Baronet, however, took upon that occasion another view of the question--he opposed the Budget of his Right Hon. Friend because, he said, it must have failed, for so much foreign sugar as was admitted would displace so much of the produce of our own colonies. Now he would like to know which the House was to rely upon, the calculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or that of the First Lord of the Treasury?—(Hear, hear.) Such discre pancies between two such high officers indicated that thorn was not that harmony at the Treasury Board which he would like to see. Ho had never taken any part in asking the Right Hon. Baronet to come forward and say what course he intended to take. Bat he would not be doing hi s d nty to the Right Hon. B arone t or t o hi s constituents, if he did not say that the course taken by him was not one that would or could give satisfaction to the country.—(Hear, hear.) H e was ready to admit, that, had power fallen into his hands in an accidental manner, or had 'it coma to him uoexpectediy, it would have been his duty to take time for the consideration of his measures. But when lee took office upon the very grounds —when his attention was called to the subject in 1840—when the Budget was brought forward, within a month after the ex- POOR LAWS. Sir J. GRAHAM moved the order of the day for going into Committee on the Poor-law Commissioners Continuance Bill. On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. WAKLEY hoped that ,considering the late hour of the night—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh" )—he thought, consider ing the great concessions that had been made by himself and other Hon. Members in not opposing the Bill, that they were entitled to have a full discussion of the measure, and by that means in the next Session of Parliament they might hope to hate a measure which would be somewhat satisfactory to the House and the country. lf, however, it was the desire of the House that the Bill should be proceeded with he would not in terfere.—(Cries of " Go on:") Mr. yokk - 5 trusted the House would indulge him for a few moments white; he brought forward the motion, of which he had given notice, ant..in order that Hon. Members might of that motion, he would take the be in possession of the obj Chat it . be .‘ aninstruc . tion to liberty of reading it to the ee l ts' lou ;c. Cnms. : , ,,sion c m', to insert a the Committee on the Poor-law Commissioners be clause to the following effect :—" That th. not empowered to enforce indiscriminate sep,- r"9" between. or permit separation and wife, and that in no case shall they sane's. separation when the application for relef shall be subb, scooted as arising from positive inability to obtain work, or physical infirmity, and not from idleness, Tice, or crimb. • He submitted that resolution to them on authority which ap peared to him unexceptionable. He proposed to Justify it on the evidence of the humane and enlightened gentlemen on the other side, whose kindly feelings of benevolence, acting upon them in the months of June and July last—(Hear, hear) — prompted them to proclaim throughout the country, that only which he asked far, namely, that " th ose w h om God had join ed, let no man put asunder."—( Hear, hear.) He proposed it also in conformity with the Scriptural law, which taught them practical charity to all men, and to do to others as they would be done by. The distress which at present existed throughout the country was undeniable, and unless some steps were taken to remedy it, he feared it would lead to mischief. The remedy was one which, perhaps, they weie not at the present moment able to supply ' • but lie belie ve d th e di s t ress wou ld b e very much alleviated by removing from poverty a legislative penalty, and he pet it to the House whether such a step would not be calculated to soften the asperities of the great mass of the suf fering community ? He was anxious that the integrity of his clause should not he compromised by the idea that it was in tended to include the worthless or abandoned. At the present moment the national stomach was unfed —( Hear, and a laugh.) It struck him that that was a subject for sympathy and regret, rather than ridicule and laughter.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The country being in the state he had referred to, ho put it to the House whether it was fitting that the people should be punished for their poverty ? As the law at present stood, a married man could not accept relief without incurring a penalty which was repugnant to hu man nature. He had prepared some statements on the subject, which at the present advanced hour he would not trouble the House with, but he would merely refer to the Slave Emancipa tion Act, for the purpose of showing the extreme care with which the framers of that Act had provided for the social ties of the negroes, and made provision that under no circumstances should they be remoeed from one plantation to another, if it subjected them to separation from their wives and families, or even their reputed wives. If they accorded to the Commis sioners the power they hitherto possessed, the wife of the negro during the existence of slavery, stood in a better position than the wife of the English pauper would be. Th a t was hi s case and he put it not to their mercy, but to their justice and hu. manity. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he would avail himself of the opportunity which the present motion afforded, of announcing t o th e H ouse t h e course which he would take with resnect ;to that motion, and to the sub sequent ones about to be made on the same subject. He did not mean to deny the general importance of the ques tions, hut he did not believe it possible to discuss any subject which touched more nearly on the feelings, or was more im mediately connected with the interests of so large a portion of their fellow-countrymen; and feeling that, sincerely as he did, he was impressed with a sense of the necessity of approaching. the subject with caution. If he followed Honourable Gen tleman in discussions on that particular question, involving a portion of the workhouse regulation, it would be impossible not to follow other Honourable Gentlemen into other details, and thus incidentally and gradually, but with his eyes open to the inconvenience of such party discussions, he should be betrayed into a discussion of all the details of the Poor-Jaw. He thought it necessary to be thus explicit. The object of the Govern ment in introducing the present Bill was to avoid pre cisely the discussion of the points which Honourable Gentlemen now brought forward, and to afford time and opportunity carefully and cautiously to consider every portion of that important measure which was adopted by the Legislature five or six years ago. There might be defects which they were anxious to supply, and imperfections which they were desirous to remedy, but those considerations required time and caution. To be donb safely, the thing must be done by the Government upon their responsibility. They did not shrink from the arduous duty of consideuin g this question of remedying the imperfections of the law —but he repeated that caution was necessary. _They only thought that the Commis sion should be continued till the close of the next Session of Parliament. Before the commencement of the next Session Government would turn their attention to the entire subject. In the course of last Session their labours were cut short on the question, and some of the proposals of the late Government were withdrawn, others were adopted and amended, and a very considerable proportion of those proposals were not con sidered at all. Now, it would be the duty of the present Government to consider all 'those proposals On the present occasion, therefore, the House ought not to enter into a discussion of the Poor-laws in detail, but confine itself to the tingle question now before the House, whether, under all circumstances, it was not expedient that the Com mission should be renewed for a limited time, and with the ob ject he had stated ? He was unwilling to enter into the ques tion mooted by the Hon. Gentleman opposite; but he would throw this out for the Hon. Gentleman's consideration, that that particular regulation of the workhouse establishment was by no means a new regulation. It was a regulation which ex isted under local Acts. Wherever several parishes had been united by such Acts there was a large number of both sexes col lected together, and from the absolute necessity of the casea division of the sexes was obliged to be had recourse to. Such s had been the case in the Gilbert union for The last fifty Marc; and in the Isle of Wight, where, under local Acts, identical with a union had existed for a long time. Any s i m g7u n m g en o t . against the fact must be an argument against thfita:soeuldbib,e his a large number of paupers in the same place. m d u a t n y , then and, to nn r t e h s e i st a the a m e ground,ns t instruction o to n movede resistiGnsetorle..- Poor-law regulations. tions referring to the question of th sition to the instruction arose from not disrespect t t' that Government disre gardedHe trusted the Hon. Gentleman would notthiokth f a o t r h t i h s e op su po. b. sub ject of whi c h it treated. It was se anxio us n ot t o the condition of the poor ; but they were mo any matter of the kind so intimately connected with t m ar a e lT ia an of y m th i a s t ta c k las e a matter so immediately affect ing t h e in