The Sun. — London, England, 1816-03-13 00:00:00

~' ~; I MPE RI AL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, TURSMY, MARCH 12. PRELIMINARY BUSINESS. Tarp GREY presented a Petition from Glenden Wadi, in the County of Nurthutuherland, setting forth the Agriotaltn, rat Distresses of the inhabitants of that district, and ing reliat—Ordered tie lie on the table. The Earl of CARNARVON presented a Petition , the ratios' of Somerset, Signed; he observed, by many thousand occupying 25 yards of parchment, against the musiionance of the Income''!' x, and keeping up large' and Atnne,:essery Military EstubliAments. The Cape of Good Hope Trade, and the Foreign Packeti tiaslad . thr-rtgh Committees of the whole I louse, and 'were retail ted veithatit amendment. Mt'. Clare. from the Coanissareln-Chiers Office, present ed an'Aecount of the Expenses o f' the Commiesatiat Deis :t t anent for the last year; hod Mr. Alegi., from the Treaso'ry,- an Account of the Civil List Exprnditore'rur the Year, end: the 511, of January last; and also of the Expenses of the airvack Department. Twit Pricate Tills wt r* bi,9,ught :up frorn the Commons, and lead first lime. • Lewd' HOLLAND pte:sendeti - a Petition from the County of Nrart id, against the coatinuation of the Property Tax .under any modification whatever, anti alt praying'for the abolition setSiyeettre Places ind'unneecssavy Offices, Vt 'o tut MELVILLE:Ind Lord ST. HELENS respectively preiented•Pititions . , but in a tone of voice so as not to be I;ist iiiet Iv heard below the Bar. The Maryiis of LANSDOWNE. presented a Wtitiim Irani the Town of Chippersham, in Wiltshire, against the Property Tax. The Noble. Marepits. then 'presented a 'Petition:front Mr. Richard Gathorne Butt, eowplaining of the treatment he re celeed while in the•Kieg's Bench' Mixon, of ntit . being liber ated in dote time, &e. The Petition being' read, detailed the inatters alleged in complaint. , On the question fur, its being 'received, The LORI) PHANCELLOtt expressed his doubts' as tattle 'propriety of reeelririg a Petition of that peculiar nature ',The Noble and Learned Lord at the moment prowsed, its the li - test eligible way, tinitihe debate arising on the question of the Petition being received, he adjourned till to-morrow . ; and in which feeeposition the Noble Marquis adquieiced. ViScaunt SI pmouTH presented st Petition from Predericti p;sq. claiming the title of Lord Pulliiner, which war referted to the Conimittee of Privileges. On the Motion of the Earl of ROSSLYN.certain additional Docintents relative to the state of the Military Establith tuents, were ordered to.be laid before the Rouse. STATE OF THE NATION: - The Order of the Day for resuming the Debate 'on the above subject being read, . The Duke of .liarsvotto rose, and after upolo giving for the inconvenience which he had unwil lingly put their Lordshipkto on a foriper eveuiog, said, he could ; solemnly assure their Lordships that nothing but a strong sense of his duty littd. imprlied him to come fotw4td p ut, this mos s i v . portant occasion, and a strong sense of duty alone tiotv induced hint to attempt .to state his reasons-for submitting this motion to their. fiord ships. Them wire four great topics to Which he should have to direct, their attention first, tie rxtent of the.propesed peace establishments ; the ilvternal dist:Ts:lTS tin' the country, which rendered it otiable to support such establishments . ; the deplorable situation t the agricultural part of the conimunity. ; and the alarming state of Irelmid.. If he was successful in versuuding their Lordships to go into a Committee on the subject, he would have to direct their atten tion to the specific details ; he woold then he its ft condition, from reference to ciretunstonee3 dud facts, to apt, their Lordships, without fear of be- In g answered in the negative, did they. belieytt the 'country leas in a condition to bear its present hur thens.?r They would see that a considerable're dnetion. must, he made in every branch of the Ex penditore. With these considerations should Ise connected an inquiry, if his Majesty's Government had, in reality, .obtained such safe and honour able peace as country had a right. to expect,„--s , He adverted to the pernicious effects upon a neigh, bowing country,. induced by the inordinate love of. some of its Sovereigus for great Military Establisti particolarly referring to. Louis XIV, and 13tionsparte. In former reigns and 'better times in - this count ry, nothing in the way of an esae n .. rive military establtslonent was thought of; we were thought secure in an. insulin sitilat ion, and Its the .strength ot our navy ; but,now, unhap pily, establishments were proleeted,:to an extent that would prey upon the „very vitals of the country.• The Noble Duke then glanced at some Of the dvtails 'of the 'Military Establishment, int, at the altered situation of. the. country, con tecittent upon the, return of peace. Lk. censured; them, with respect either to the Home or the Co- Establishnients, aslextravagantiy high. .He then adverted to them as applying to IrelatuLthe. state and circumstances of which had no small. shale of his. animadiersion. He had been a l wa y s o f o pinion, that it would 'be more wise stud politic to 'adopt ,a system ot. mildness and conciliation leer the rule of that country, than .a system of military coercion. From the present situation of that country, they bad all devoutly .to wish a very different. system would be soon, adopted; th at -some ',steps towards a `conciliation of the. Catholic Botly• would be taken ; and for ,ad, :bitting them to the pale and privileges of the Constitution. He feared they were doomed, still to stifiPr, especially , when they were de& berately told, frourthe violence amt tone of their letugeotgel, that they were unfit to be. so admitted; lint aftestinch repeated refusals was it to he won-, tiered ? Let the grievances -be removed, and he. was .convinced all language of 'that kind. would CeaSi. Another reason assigned for keepittg sods: w - military force there, sins- the necessity ot .„its assisting the Civil Power, aiding the Magistrates, and "assisting in the Collection of the Revenue ; hat its application to such uses' would he serious objections with him. lie greatly disliked to see. military. men acting as parish constables. Re verting then to the topic of a laige standing army in this country, his Grace tinotutl one of the. speeches of Mr. Burke ulion the fumy estimates, livherein he descanted on the injurious effects of attempting to establish' standing:atmies in this country by Charles, and his successor James 11. He then passed on to our financialdifliculties, and o bserved, that the interest of the National Debt. s u rountedto sk moiety of the income of the country; that if its lands-were brought to auction, the pro ritie would not equal the amount of the 'National The Income Tax was reprobated and vig maTized by the innumerable petitioners against it; a aaersti►re of the kind was once before thought of 1 - t - was enneti-ti in the 4th year of the r44;*gn vt Lltitry I V. ; but so apprehensive Were they.at the time alb anch a tnensure being called into prece dent, that all the records of its enactment. were dtstroved. The internal distresses of the cowl • • excessive, that . nothing'sloiet of inVo ry coiticf coil h - ice some of their foArdsltips of the raelay. Lle knew irsiiante4 'where lands bad beet) let .for three: pnuqds a6iFfor tiro pounds per acre, chart were lately Offered rent•free. The c i" il3 `'‘ .6-e crowded with persons connected with agriculture, which was teduced to suet: a=rstate that it was quite horrible to think of. The Clerical Body did not escape a share of this general distress y-he meant chiefly with regard to their tithes and of this many of the Reverend Prelates must be aware. In a Committee the details of an these iMporta nt topics could b e -)lsqlight regularly and fairly [le fore- their Lordships. The system of tythes would also be found one of the, greare - st.gvievAnces land hail to complain of. Either of the varions topies he had rererted ,to was sefficient to induce .inqeirv, hot the Mode io combitort ion -imPeri"i". ly called for it. He' disclaimed all idea of to eniburrass his Majesty's .ooverentent,itv what •he proposed, though he earnestly wished to see Whig principles the ride and guide ataction of the Government, the ParliaMent, and the peoele of this country. Ilia Grace concluded by mov lll 4, " That this Rouse do resolve itself into It Com mittee to take into cousideratioa the State of the Nation." The Duke of Sussgx said, that in seconding the motion, he should take up' the' less . cif their Liardshins' time, :when he cousidered the able sop, porters who would folloW up the arguments of the Noble Duke. consiOcriug the resew mo mentous situation of the country, it struck :ring filar two points especially were nom material to lie attended to, namely, our external connexions and our internal at range:mints.; • for if these were not equally considered, they could draw nothing, but partial, results. An investigatiou on the plin- r ciple to which he referred would talon! Satlit'AC. tiOn to tiro country, and therefore the decision of the -House was the more likely to he cheerfully acquiesced in. He believed notch of the present situgion at the country Was to he attributed to the long protracted war in which it was engaged —.was it possible, -that after such a state for 23 years, Iliac ! difficulty should not be experienced ; ;' but the cause of the immediate or actual difficul ties of the country nuts', in-sonic measure, he thought, .beaalribeted to the termination of the war upoo principles -different from those under which it was originallYbegett. No one could more highly appreciate the distinguished merits of the Army, vet the cottatre should nor be carried away. Iry iii NIS of glory and vanity ; they ought to re.. fleet whether even the memorable victory of Wa le:don-had caused for uei 3-permanent security sod a permanent peace, and whether it would essential ly tend to the successful operatim Oftrade end corn• ruerce. Ills Royal flightless then entered upon the .consideration of Lie wanner which the trade and Commerce of the country ivould be affected by the paeitieation. 'Several of our late colonies wet., restored to their ancient masters, which must cause the flow of trade so far into Inherent chew. nels ; anti we roust expect,a vary great change io our commercial relations; front the situation in which they stood before the French Revolt!. lion. The great additional expenses which must be inedrreil, witurally induced a pro- - poirtionate change. The illuitriotts Doke then adverted to_the circumstances in which France and her Sovereign stood. at the time of the hue Peace. which iuduced the keeping up a force of .150,000 men in that country ; mitt hi that view it woold hi a question how far it was prudent to take such a portion of that force on. ourselves...— And With respect to our maritime force,, it was loeg a question, whether it was better to depend upon our insular situation 41 connected - therewith, or to keepat larger land force with a view to our security another way. As an Englishiran, he must incline to view a considerable standing army with en eye of jealousy ; and in every free coun try he thiotght the greatest depeudance shotild be placed opo o the opinions of the people, tie spoke his sentiments of the way in which these, greet topics should be considered with the greatest sincerity. lie had, no wish to embarrass Govern!' meat, but he was naturally inclined to oinitiSe Sentitneio which were notaualogous to the Con. stitutiort of his country. The Earl of ABP.ntnN thought there was.ne. cessarily a tendency in the motion before. their Lordships cm censure the conduct of his Majesty's Government. „With respect to thefirat great ob jection,, that of the- large Military Establishment, be court! not `deny that, comparatively with re spect to to former periativ, the present wets con. siderable ; but it was perfectly obvious that the cirCeonstancesof this country anti ,of Europe had materially altered since those periods, and in'a, a way-, he thought, to.render an increased Esta lilishment not.oulyiestifiehle but necessary. 'The real question, therefore, respected the extent of the-Establishment. Within the last 20 years such a change in the intelligence and the progress of the human mind had operated ; such an' individual tendency to spirited . inquiry and. bold discussion, that lie thnugltt nothing serious was to be appte- . !tended front. the effects of -any army they were likely to see estaidished in this country. ,There was no doubt' he believed, 'bet the grand ob- . jour of all ,our policy might to he the preserva tion. of peace in Europe. MuCh of• that de pended upon the interuAL state of Trance, and proper.. anion amoug the o th er - powers, of +'u rope. Though Napoleon wets in our power,• an d lilt - enemy was destroyed, still the instruments,. and mpeh of the elements, of that Tower, existed, anti may, if not properly guarded, .he again brought WI) action. Though much of' the. Continent was in a state of armatnent, yet a portion of that was governed by those who were liable to the dominion of bad passinns ; yet, if peace was - , preserved, it wOuld in a great degree depend upon the preponderating influence of this country. With 'respeet to the alleged ancient- pa-. 'icy of this country to 4cpurlitt itself from thaCoo--- tinental=States, he did. not , believe. it near ever the practiceotEtiglend, in the best times of her history, and certainly not in these which theNobleDuke.pre ferred,to-foilow such aline of policy. It was the duty. and the glory of this country to preserve the bat- lance--it Was thegreat end of all Our endeaVours--!- the great-object of all our wishes. The continu.- *rice oPouth a sysi eat would best accord %vitt) the credit tiiii Comply had acquired in the eves of Europe, which iesidted from her Constaucy Lion in success. In this view of the snhject, it would he the height of impolicyto reduce our Establish ment-.ln future emergeneiciit could not.be-restored without a ruinous expense; - W possibly•never to its , present "statefafperfeetion. 'He was not disposed} to deny that . a considerable degree of distreSs ex isted throughout. the country, to meetwhieh great sacrifices should be made ;. but at present none of. the seeessary.c.stablisliments fi teti—ate relief would be affected by the wisdom of Parliament, by Means of rigid economy; and the application of other measures. The abolition of the Property Tax may tend, insteatifeeetanally eelii'a iu to.ogrgravate the distresses at the.coun try ; and with ,re - ;•kpect to. the establisol4elit for Irelatol. he thought the Noble Duke himself was twell,iiitin of the state of that coootrx to entertain an idea of its dintioetiop 7 -roas present site:ohm of Ireland, he. judged, proceeded from very different cause ' s than thnse asserted by the, Noble Duke. The best mode of etnedying them would be by beginning with a general system of -instruction, which would induce hul4its of indui . - try and order. The measto es contemplated by the Noble Duke would be attended with verydiffereut cuirsegnenees. • The Earl of TANlClticK.expressed - uis anxiety to have followed the Noble Duke who. brought for ward the present motion, as far wily as his oh-. servatious had ,been cunlined to the state of ire- . laud, because the high sitoatiou once fiaed by the Noble 'flake in the iodine councils of that coon.. • try entitled his opinions to peculiar attention. ti c agreed that its situation did can for inquiry-an inquiry conducted without prejudice.' or party feelings—an inquiry entered into with tut eqaal, desire ots all sides of redressing the grievances of that unfortutiate . anti ill-used conntry. When he applied the term " to !rebind, he did riot mean to say that any ill Usage had proceeded from either this or a former Administration'. The Noble aike had indeed said, that Ireland Was at present treat, ii as a conquered- nation,' be-' Cause al) army of 25,000 mcii was deemed neces sary- for the - 111flinICitaliCe its tranquillity. But it to enforce obedience, to the laws, to protect the peaCe'able'and loyal part of thecommunity, and to , collect the revenue, was to treat a people as it they were conquered, his hope was, that Ireland might continue to be so treated. lie apprehended, how ever, Iliac the cautti4 of the misery prevailing in that country lay notch deeper :* believed that conciliatory disposition iu a Goyim:intent was Ways lirt.kitletiVe , of good, but he thought also abet precautions were sometimes neeessary.. Ile would ask' the Noble Duke, who, frOm his oPltorto. nities, must have had ample meals orinforming himself on thesubject,whether be really considered. that what was vulgarly ealledCatlialic emancipation would be sufficient to remedy all the evils existing in the franie Of Irish society ?- Could the -eiretttn , :stance of a few Cathidie Noblenien sitting. in that and a hew Catholic Gentlemen i,ttlae other, Tat is;, end at once to that system of ouutder and plunder which was, the ebullition of a half-eivil4ed peasantry, instigated and Set in action by a few concealer! and'disaffeeted villains ? tie meant no insinuation (for "such' stn insinuation would be false), that thy; only disterhers of the public peace - were of the Catholic persuasion. Catholics and 'Protestants Were ton engaged in these atrocities, and it,too often happened, from their extent and frequency, that the innocent Suf fered with the guilty. The, employment, hOw ! - ', : ever, tri .soldiers hi the collection of the revenue, might be justified by the practice necessarily re sorted to even in this country. He could assure the House, - that front habit as well at education, he was firmly at tached to the principles of the establish ed church, which he Wished`to see'preserved ih till its tespectabilityred splendour: bat iu the actual circumstances of Ireland; the system of teethes, he felt it bls ditty to state, pressed witlsfpeculiar bite& ship on the peasant. ,There was,nothing of cer tainty in it, and while the Catholic peasant knew '4ot: what lie irad to expect, he at the same time had to support atwitter class of pastors. The fault,if :faith it was, of this country was one of centurie' :old, and exhibited a melancholy Story, into which header , not intend to enter. It might be obseri cl the epoch. of the tevolaition, .that 'event which secured the' laws and libel ties of this coantry, had' 'beat, to Itelandi period of sorrow and of degra s i Ration, when, by a misguided attachment to - the 'baoished hoese of Sttlatt, it became the scene a civil war, famine, and oppression. It would be tedious were he to state all the instances in which the ;English legislature had been swayed by jea lousy, wht-tiever there appeared the slightest prospect of ailvencement in the manufacturing and - ogricultoral • interests of Ireland. This po licy euntinued to be acquiesced in by the Irish pea pie, because they were entirely under the controul of.a,few fatal-owners who subjected themselves to tyranny for the sake of domineering at home. - A declaratory late was passed iti the reign of Geo. 1, which asserted the right of the British Parliantent, in all cases, to bind thepeople of that country ; and it Was not till the year 1782, when we 'found it impossible pay longer to spare a mi., litary foree, that we allowed Ireland: to protect herself, which she accordingly did, It . was then shown, that although a Freuch fleet might ride unmolested in the Clralinel, not at Frenchman dared to plant bis foot in Ireland.. Her darlirig inde pendence was then achieved; but it Was of a short duration: the minds of her population were agent exasperated by religions, quarrels, and tainted by French principles, and the Union necessarily fol ,low.ed.. Whatever might have been the objections to the measure,' its necessity, lie thought, was placed beyond dispute ; but the enormous taxa lion that bud since fallen on Ireland had made tier pay dear for its advantages: Before that event, het whole debt, was one million; at present, her ,whole income was absorbed by its annual interest: The hearth money was a grievous evil, and whilst all' these causes-of' disorder Were left untottch ed, he' feared it Would be vain to expect to see at resident gentry performing the fonetions `of the magistracy to that part of the Kingdom. He trusted that he had, iii these observations, steered cleat from, any party bias—it was too seriont a gi s t t a i Ot ht t s t o h , an e n t si) a n d r e ce . h o e f oi,l subject tres f si o on p l a v r a t it a b g e i s t y a t s i t o e n m . otaxation ;- and, perhaps Some re litg'i?)l.ll2llll?Cir Ju r y p ellto Ning the residence. of the higher ss well as inferior Clergy, might be attended with _t_.._.___ _.r -- terested In' the prosperity of that etiantry, antthe. lieved that, instead of a source of debility, it 11 1 0 c be rendered, by a wise and moderate administra. tion, the best bulwark of the empire. 'De 'Nog Lord concluded by expressing a high opin ion the equity an& impartiality displayed by the IT sent Maim Government. # The Marquis of litmc - xismottatt coasicleredtl the speech o f the Noble Lord who addre sf them last, contained in itself the strongest r eas fur agreeing to go into the proposed Commit If atter that speech they refused to emptire else state of Ireland, it would be to bola 0' the population of that country that for eve should be kept down by the' military tot Great Britaiu. In 1782 we entrusted the lion of Ireland to her own volunteers ; an' wis..the reason Why we could not non; trust population of that country I But the people countries had been insulted by being the wer had ceased, but that no decrease. [no - diens was to be the consequence. This: maintenance of a large scanning airily, H 'sutlicient reasons for establishing the sought for into the state of our externs' ternal policy. He wished to knots contrary to all former ex perience, peace be the harbinger of economy 1t %%IRS military amen' of despoti3m was Intel forted upo n t h e countr y. In a IV": -liy . the Librarian to the Regent-, 'ell" Jams 11., there was a docunment pa be the advice of that weak Monarch„, 1. !me stated th at th e H a b eas Corpus couvemmietit to a Sovereign, as it ° 5 Ise at the expenee of maintaining a ,arniy to keep the people in ors somewhat singular that similar 5 , peered to ,be entertained at'present , was told by Ministers, that we - we! found peace, why then were we Vet fit of such a' state ? Our h either be diminished, or we ought what the danger %vaa which requii large - army together with the mm tenmle& that it wai not 'meccas ,very large garrisons in our colt were jealous of France being to wrest theni front us. As large force in the West Indies sibit turbulence of the Blau whom the Noble Lords of the House we had conferred other benefits, it was an idea w itivestization. lint the truth it new COlony was acquired, in what r espect it could be mr this country; the only.inqui spectiog it was, whether it vernor and -all his suborm' were told'that the fOrce by the company ; but wet 'Jana at this base of day as India COmpany would pay pence ? The expeaice of a tit e rniilioris, and there &lit to the Amount of fc more. Upon all these that the inviry called ought to be acceOed - tmia :Lord &ESSINGTON at considering it perman _have a large Military E state - of the Continent time Constitution from I was thowitmg a scandt spect to the state of I Ointment of 25,000 ,its safety. The mi' created wealth : it et pose of his meat, w' mand fur. The cal ,principallyfrotn the the sources which of wealth bei ng ar i United Empire. that 4411 a state produced a return Ireland Would ex , and be relieved c present press SO Lord Mintili - food to be. plod The Noble Lor rtout.t.be NON etmasery,to go niatea, : is, that for a ;notion had stated n the: ourselves to) ourselves to preamble of as a standin peace to, pi first timing be to mov -let. If if inquire int be for tine meat not ferent thing not warrant I subject. proposir Ireland, up tar I year ha time of 13,00 C in Ire; .Magic into that been able had con In tat flu tb ill /It ti e _ ,