The Sun. — London, England, 1816-05-04 00:00:00

them from anise tninoos vicissitudes CO,. wit:en their private 'fortnnes Were now 'snmetintes ex• ' posed. ' Inquiries, had recently been -made into the amount of thelees,reCeived by the Consols, mid . . from the result of these lie looked for a saving ,of . • 10,0001.., ineking with the 16,4001.. expected to be saved mitler the head of Foreign Ministers, IC ' total of 26,4001 P He 'Licit 'came to . the .;fourth'• class, which included the fotir great branches of the Household Expenditore. The whole saving ~' utt this class„.comvared with the. amount of laSt year, was 20,0001., the total estimated 'amount. being 234,0001..4 whereas last year it Was 254-,0001, • . , lo give the House a More complete view': of .the i savings in this class, he %wield state the Depa rtinemmts% , J in which reductions hid been made. In the Lord Steward's Department - matrof the ..expences had - hurt curtailed. In the Lard 'Chamberlain's Depart- , meat there was a -reduciion 'of three •th""stina pounds ;-''. last' year the sum for it was, forty-three thousand Poiniiis ; this year only 40,0001. Time ex- pences of the department of the' Master of the horse were also much diminished. If the whole , "'lmam Of the 4th otitis of this year ayes coinpar 7 ed with the expence which it included in •the seven years preceding 1811, it wouldbe found that the average of those years was . 259,0001.,• which. 'as 25,0001. above the present amount. -But if the sum, atwhich the expences of this class were estimated, should prove insufficient, atillif- any excess of expence was incUrred; - to make which, . •it would he necessary to apply to Parliament, the whole object of the measure which he proposed would be 'defeated; and the House would be de , eeived.: Thii was ' supposition, which, he was . convinced, woulit.lnove the very reverse of the truth; :because the estimate was formed (spoil the surest pi inciplet. 'To prove this, to the satisfac tion of the House, hti wo I ule.wish to-touch- (not upon the details, for theY would he: hereafter dis cussed) upon a -.feW of the grounds on which there was the moit:just reason to believe that this•esti- snare was formed on such principles as to l ui l ke . i it aluntst'eettalft that the'incorne would equal the expenditure,' and that the 'reduction was' not , a diusive one. , in the`_ first . place, One' at the cliitf,- ; reasons. for the reduction was, that 'the prices of articles .Ini.d lately voiniiii, Ad Zen. ssroodly,- the establishment of the Prin.' vess Charlotte, witch for . the -fete' last years' baden. be . . Charged -upon, the-Civil List, was 'lltikv Nvolultawo from je.„ _Thirdly, ' there would l be a 'considerable saving in causeQuenee. or 4 11; tiltitre being now completely •p"rov+ded'for . all Ore minor trenched of th e Royal:Family. And , lastly, as a considerable snitl had been laid' out in providing plate, there would not for the 'future be more than o trifling sum' required for' that article. Thus; he 'was not, : misleading the Mime,: when he 'said' that tile estittiate had.been Moat fairly formed . , , and that every item, had"been duly considered, en . that the reductions were by no means greater than' could rea'Sonahly be made. . Taking . the 4;h and Eth Class together, they incloded th e whole ex , pews of the,,,Royitl Household,; mere Privy-house. On time sth :ClaSS',.,ittinvaled' With time last yeae; : there was by the.p:r.esent erti-! ' :nate atim, z iocreasts Of 2,4401. But . he would Wish' . that, the 4th- and AO( Cr.iSS,,'r.) . rit. account of • the connection which he ,had -...rneotiOoe'd„ . : ihOlild al . - nays .6 e ' Vie i.'o 4 -together.. . The- amount . of 'the exp.ene.cs. -on -both tlpeiethisses; for, the seven. , /ears preceding 1,81 Uavcragedanulmally 375,0001. Last year, thtejOint'autottnt weti.392,0601,; but. t hislrear it was 'only 370,0901. Therefore, pros-: : r • spectively, .on tho - se two clasSes,. compared with the stirenritesrrevious - to 1811, there was asay . ing annually of 800014,And coatipiteed. with 'lasi Near 22,0001. This statement ttUghtAct protect the • Crowd from, that odium which a certain class 'Of men endemtioured to cast upon it, of bearing most heavily on the fillilllCCS of the country. When' his'', Royal' Highness the Prince Regent took upon him-. I self the office of Regent (which in point of .fact 14 " the Crown) it was found; of Course, that he,. eould not give up all his own servants,. and at the same. time the others who bad attended on his lidajesty at Windsor could not be. dismissed at ooce. Thus, what must be called a double ex- . pence,' was unavoidably incurred.,. The sort of, calumny which was apt to be imputed to the Crown 'by its enemies, as to the amount of the Itoyal expenditure, was most false and unjust.— The proportion which the Royal axpences , bore to those of the public departments which were . , charged on the Cie il List, was but a drop of water to the ocean. What swelled - .the abloom of the Ci vil List were those necessarily large expences which grew out of the different branches of the public service: Whenhe Same to the end of this eiscos sioh, he hoped to find that there was not in atoint. of fact so much difference between himself anti the Rt . : .!lort. 'Gentleman opposite (Mr.- Tierney) .as . !night be 'expected front the preliteinery, discus- Conte upon this .subject. He hoped they %void(' come fairly, and liberally, and candidly to the dig cussiou; actuated only by time desire of doing what v..mis just between the Crown and .the people— (Hear, hear! from Mr. Tierney). There was a topic on which he wished to say a very few words —the delay-in bringing' this Tatter before Par- Siament. - it had been found impossible to have the Estimates made - out -in October, as had been wished, and time reason was the repairs and improvements which were carrying on at trighton, and the amount of which it was im passible to determine until long after October. - . . 'T here bad al so arisett a doubt whether ' the ex -1 rencetof these improvements ought to he charged upon.-the Civil List ; as time residence at Brighton • c"•p not a liqul palate, but bad 'been originally purchased by the -4, 1 t ince Regent out of his 'private °means, altithugh he had last year resolved to have it fitted ep fo r the aecomtuottation of his family. l'h-eTreasury, therefore, As the.proper'conititu tional body, whose duty it was to consider this 14 ""' ,1 : , ttud, upon due deliberation , reconitneftded `that these oxpences should. not be inciodedemong 'those of the - loird' Chamberlaints DePartuteitt i . . I ` lll ofig6t rathee to . be taken out of the Droits ,. : It tras his ' intention to lay before . the House the Ill'e 2 seey -Minutes upon this subject ; and. there• P. fore be did not . think it was necessary for him t a Jay any mutt. .import the subject at this time. •.. ''," would now go to the Third Class, which in . rktliedAhe eilatenceS of that ; .officeover which he '" the honour to presidethe Foreigti-peimaq - . t I "unt• The total amount for thialleplritnent i n I,e . • o,e, ent 'Estimate -was 226 9001,1v,hieb was a ... o .last. year's expenditure. It was necessary for . hittl to state, that the Estimate this year was Trained with a. view to the extent ,of our foreier; relations-; ki4l c h was -ne 7 tet'gie..a.ter at pre sent.' It. might therefore in the course of event's (howevemproirithle at presettt) happen, that onr' foreign connections might hectime less exttesive' If, hyany circumstances, - ottr'continental vela tiOns should be narrowed, then, of .course, a would take place iu:thiS bran Ch. In con, tetoplation , of the possibility of such an event, was his intention .to ietrodirce into the Bill which he proposed to briUg _into the Uonse, u. elause, providing that in case it saving shouhi pike place upon this hranch,.that the sum so sav ed,-should' he applied to increase. the surplus of the Consolidated Fend. As to the sth class ; for the purpose of etlecitialSectoity agaiiist tiny in crease in the tocpence,, is regelation mils n n no new officer should be tutp - pinted - in the Royal flonSebeld until the expetrditure fell ftom 140,0.001. t0 . 125,0001..and with.this, view a.Committeeof three. Gentlemen . bad been app - ointeil to examine what offices could'be dispensed with. As to, the classification of the payments', be had found it his doty,,b,owever laborious; to take" upon himself the arrangement On this subject:. As the most economical mode which • could be adopted, he M i M would propose to Parliament to vote at once. what should be judged a reasonlble som . for the'contin gent expeoces of. the Civil List, 'anti to confine it self merely - to that stun. The auditing of ,the ac counts was'another very important consideration. Nothing was more necessary than that it should he done speedily, as it was way by having it so dune that it could be hoped that any Onproper expetidi. tore, in breach of the regulations of the blouse,. might be checked.. At preseat, the mode of a u dit:. ing the accounts relating to the Royal Expendi 'titre was very defective, By the arringetnent now. acted Upon, a great proportion of these accounts were now .appoihted to he audited by the Commis sioners of Puhlic.Account's. Th'is single tact was enough to spew the necessity - of altetation in the arrangements ; because 'it was well. known .that these (.;mnatisSioners well; so much. oppressed_ with business, that account', lay hctore them many years, ere, they could po‘sibly - be' Aiiiiited: lie was sure the (louse would agree with him, that 'all. ~the accounts slimild aud.ted within a" year'froM the time time exnenees' were incurred— (Hear...hear, hear - With •it view.:to a complete and proper arrangement on this subject, he should propose, that foe the•tektire'the - Whole of trle ac. 7 coots itiould he audited under the•iititstediate di rection of the Treasury, who should employ pro per officers for . that purpose, and that those offi cers. so employed. should Amy e all time necessary faCilitiJs'afforded them ; that they should have access to all the persons employed in the diffei'eot -departments to which 'expellees were incurred and in. short; every meat's' of information, to : 'enable them thoroughly aud : correctly to judge. of every item in the .accounts. ..By this ari :angement 'he thought that it would .be allowed the best means was taken to ettiitre , aceuracy, anal to ctn.,- reccat.:otice. any .unitecestraty expenditpre, .and •- - bkiog the whole most competelY under coutrotil. This , was the view of what he intended to propiAe'' . • to. the House,; and it was formed on principles so liberal—so Much what the. Right Honour able - Gentleman . (iUr. Tierney) harthimself said were his • wishes import - the subject, that ha clitl hope 'the Moose would appetive of it. . Before he - sat down he thought. tt neeeSsary - just to 'say a tevir words' as to the etnoeht - of. the expenCes in the Foreign Dgartmcnt, for the purpose tit endeavOuring more completely to remoye.the corn nion mistake, that the : great amount of the Civil List was owing•to the atimutit of the •Itoyal Ex pendituti. He beggedonly.to refer to the fact's_ on this subject, which , would ,show exactly how. erroneous thiS notion was, which, not withstand tug, it was endeavoured so iudustrionsly, to he propagated. He also stated, that it was his • in tention immediately to lay before the.. House. the Accounts relating to the Droits, subsets. he was sure would prove satisfactory to the House. The. Noble Lord then :concluded by moving, " That leave be given to bring in - -a Bill for the better gulationof his Majesty's Civil Lst." . Mr. Tisartay said, he did not intend to make any objection to the motion of the Noble Lord. But although he did not oppose the blingne jr) the Bill, he by .no means was to be understood as committing himself to•approve the principles oft which it Wei founded. But he begged to cell - the attention of the Hotise ; to the way in which this Bill was introduced. He had often complained of the 'late period of the Session at which the dis cuSsion or the Ciiil 'List took place ; and there wai . tiow the very same grotind for complaint, be cause this Bill was. introduced at such a period of the'Session, thA it was impossible'to have a full House before which to debate it. More than two months ago, Le had moved Or an aceo•mt of the Droiti of the Admiralty, which were then refused, although the Noble Lard now fott4 it convenient to produce them. The saute was the Case with respect to time Lord Chamberlain's Department and many others. There was therefore much to be compratned of, as to the time when the Noble Lord produced these accounts, and - brought in his Bill, because they were both 'before . the Houlte at so late a - period of the Session, that it was impos, sible for any Member of the Hoese,to avail self of them in the way which he might wish, and which his 'duty required. It was now Only two days until his motion upon the subject of the Civil List would come before the House. Now, be. would submit whether this was proceeding . failly , —that he should only he allowed two days to consider thesepapers j . _of whiCh lie could not, in . 'any degree, avail' hiihself . on Monday , without labouring day and tight at them, and even then he should be able to make but an imperfect use of them. But he implored the House not to be led away by what had been said by the Noble Lord, nor to belleVe that the measures which he recommended were such as ought to be adopted, or such 'as Would t he satisfactory to the country. Lord -CASTLSREAQII.' Of all questions that could be brought before the House,• the Civil . ;List was that which it mould be most unfair and improper to discuss in parts, instead of looking_ at it as a whole. There was certainly, therefore, no just ground for Complaint on the-part of the Right Hon. Geutiemail oppo)ite, at . ! . 0 - the .rejtcl the partial discussion of this qtleation'.' He was sure the I-louse wodd acquit him of any intention tif embarrassing the quest:on. The. Right Hon. 'Gentleman. however,.ettagt;eirated clheii he talked 'of the ‘lisadvantaize tinder vehlah hihiSitra froni the time at which the :aecoolits were laid before the House; .for he would ituture •to stay,' that when, the Right Lion. Geptlematt looked at .the accounts, he WAS so thnronghly master of the subject that he Wottld,understand them in en mi iiutes. TIFAII , MY tittia, tie had 'complained that be h4( . 1 only two flays - to considerthuse papers, not so as' . to citable himself to understand' them, but lo make the Home iintlerStawl tlieth. .sir F. BUEDEPrT protested against any money being-taken from the Proits °ldle Crown, or of the Admiraiy, for the purpose of constructing ex- pensive ornamental works at Brighton,' where it appeared after all, - that there was' .no Royal Pa lace. He could ngt,forbear oxpeessing his sur mise at the way in which the Noble Lord ex pressed himself, when - be said' there' was a tem.' dent,' in the Civil LisOto out-grow the sum voted by Parliament ; and- the Notlie Lord then told theist a very long story about ,this; but for his own part, it seemed to him, that there` was only. one way of preventing this, and that was, that the House should . not vote • away any money-ta pay oti those. outgrowings. He agreed perfectly to'the principle of dividing the Royal expeures from the other branches of the Civil List', but he looked tvith jeolo.vsy sit all sums voted for any at the branches ; and -be thought Ministers ought to be mode responiihle 'for any excess . Of the • ex penditure above the st u n toted- by Parliaritent. As to- the Bill now. proposed; he believed it..would, be as: much disregarded .as all the former .Bills-' upon . - this siibject. Mr. Burke's Bill was passed with the very same - view as that how . prop6sed,* but it had been utterly disregarded. , It would be much. better for the Hort 4 to make -the reSpoosi-. bility of .Ministers, wbicli was so much talked of, a re slily. r The motion wits then agreettto without: oppo sition.. fiusKtoom rose to make a few observa tions relitive to' the 'sum of 23;0001. which had been grAted Co the CoamissiOriers for niunaging the Adairs of Woods and .Forestai it•wasjotpoisk .ble to state the part;colar itenis for which this . suiri had been expended, but be had no objection What vier- to (*Gish the totals'; • Tte - a$ ttv AttFer.yed•; that, his object was to ascertain What proportion ok this money had been expended in repairs, and pnichases.' Mr. 1 - 10 , K1 , sN that (here would be no. difficulty in ut iliiat the t eturn• in the manner then desired. He woliht fornish an account for the last ten years Under those particular . heads ; - and for that purpose, lie begged leaVe to ,withdraw the papers thebibetort , the Haase: 'Lord ALTHORPE, in a low tone of voice,eam "ptainticl that certain papers for which 'he had moved some time.agor had not been produced. Mr. TIERNEY Complained that an account ,of the increase of salaries in eertain . departments, which hid been laid upon the table, had . not yet been printed. ..'the, §nsts..Ett begged to state, that a great quantityof.,parrs had been sent to the printer; but, as it'was not enstOinary to niark' any particu= Akir papehti being first wanted, the printer gene rally.yeturnedc.the whole•together, and. this was the only yeason that the document to which the Right Gent. had alluded,'‘vai not then be fore the HouSe. ." • • Mr; TaktißY thought this explanatipn quite 'satisfactory, but he hoped some exertions would be made, to furnish this paper Uy ' • 7 slfOrt conversation then. took plate between Lord Althorpe, the-Chancellor,of tire Exchequer, Mr, W. Wynne, Mr. Tierney, and Lord.NC.as.tl,... reagh, relative to the names of the Commissioners who had been appointed to inquire intti the reduc tions to be made in the salaries of different De, partulents, When LOrd Gist lereagh concluded with saying, that the names ut those pigraoti eptiltEnot be mentioned. _ SILVER . COINAGE. : Mr. GititsfeeLt, tOse ; to present a Petition frbin doe of:the' Wards of the City of Lomion ; .praying. for a new silver currency. The. Hon., Member iivislreal to stare, that a plan %vas (hen under the consideration of hjs }Maiesty'S Oovernmettt which would relieve the country from that inconvenience under which it. hail .ainfered for a great many vears past. He then adverted to a - pampidet published' by . thelate LeirdLiv'el'pool, in 1805 and expre,s ed aliope, that. whatever might , be the plan Of Ministers, it would be,,fouoded O i l that principle upon which every Gournment of Europe, except -England, had always acted. The House Was awAre that, according to the 'Mint Laws, sup posing a person to take a pound of silver to the Mint, it was exchanged for 6 . 2.5. which made ex actly the same weight. Dining the hist century this Country had,heen possessed of the worst silver. coinage. in Europe. • ,He had recently seen some specimens of ,a new coin front the Mint which certainly did great credit t .o the persons whnso-, perintended that department ; .and he ‘'could take that opportunity Of stating, that, in his opinion, those persons discharged the duties•of their ofliee with great- honour to themselves end ads antage to the country. Mr. Wat.i.mit.t vie POLE . Said, that; ai this sub ject was under theconsideration of his Majesty's Government, it would be impossible . for him to give any opinion et present. As to the three shilling tokens, to which, be believed; the Hon. - Member had allirded; it .wei perhaps the.besecoin that had been fabricated during the present King's reign. He was very much gratified in hearing the opinion which the Hnn. Member entertained of the Mint; and lamented that another Mir. Meat- , ber, who had expressed very:different sentiments o n a former night, was not „then present. He begged to‘inftiriu the Heine, 'that a most respec table jury of goldsmiths had been convened at the mint, who declared that they could not discover any diU'erence between some lot,o (Purl whlch bad been coined at London, and others which had ,been coined at Paris. T h e directors of the mint at Paris had written word, that • they were asto nished tofind the accuracy with Which thoselpieces had been fabricated. He then held in his' hand eight.lOuis d'ors and he stboultl tae glid"to hand ,„ had been coined at L o nd on , ano sbe other !0. , i nt Paris ; and, tiniest Gentlemen A'ete acq tainted with the private merle of the mint of Pa is ~he pet - MI(10i that they could not tell the diffe"ence. Mr. 3. P. GRANT would not trouble the /louse With more than two words on this . si.t:4eei.. Re Would inertly state, that the relative value of gold and silver was trinsiderably altered ; anit*e could Hot do better" thuo make one metal a legal tender,, and leave the other to find its value in . the Market. Sir JOHN NEWPORT, adverting to what the Right, lion; Gentleman ,had stated respecting the louis d'ors, wished to know why v‘ e should take opon ourselves to .counterfeit-the coin of another: comury - 'The CrtArldet.tiott of the - Excomtnnsaid, that the !olds d'ors had been struck at London by'the express authority of the French King.• Mr. W. ?NA . begged Just to add, that we had not copied' the letter or. 'symbol of the fiend: Mint. 'The.Petition WrCS tbe9,brought lip, and ordered to lie on the table. 'Mr. 4. P. GRANT Moved, that certain Papers relative to distillation in Scotland should be forth with' pranced. ordered.' Lord ALTII'ORPR moved for an AcoOlirit of the Drawbacks on Leather exported during the last five years. Ordefed. . . FillitEls NOTES. Q'enefal TifoiNTotv moved, fora*.Account. of - the total. nominal value of Porited Notes•whicit had been paid by the, Bank of England ) frott,tbs first of .finnary 1812 up to'the lastest period. , Mr SA.rativ.t. TROHNTC/i$ ' did not -believe that any Notes which had turned out to be forgerigs had 'been rid by the Rank : it was impossible, therefore, to furnish' the account for which the Hon. General had moved. . . - General•Tithawrot4 &aid, tliat was very S32lsl , toory; bnt.ite widmi that . an vial return shmild - be Made 'to the fitiuse. The motion was then, agreed to. Sir J. NEWPORT moved ,for an Recant - 11'ot the number of priioners tor debt in' Ireland lot thse 'last live years, specifying the number imprisoned forsumsuntlet 10s. • ' BAN lIETRICTION . BILL The }louse having retoleed itself into a Coro. mittee OH the_Bill for coritintling the Restrictions on the Payment of Cash by the Bank of England, The CHANCELLOI of the EicHaQuelt,ptoposed to fill up the blank with the words " sth of July, ,I 818." • " Mr. lIIIRNICR obServed, that it should be quite understoinl that this ' was the last possible sion of the Restrictioni, and that the' - Bill would come tint of the.Comtnittee with a Parliamentary recognition to that effect in the preamble. But if it did not,. he should take . the sense of the Fihnse upon the subject. The C HAN CHIA° aof the EXCHEQU ft,,considered this Bill as necessary to . give the Bank trate to . prepare for resuming cash payments; and so far he agreed with the Hon, and Learned Gentleman. He had.turned it nver in - .his mind, to see if any.' enactment could be matte iu theßill•to further the object be had in •spiew, but he could not devise any. 01 course lie. could not divide the clause re ferable to that object. Mr. Ilottxstt was sorry theßfightlton.. Gentle man could not divide t.14,..,c1au5e. Be should, therefore, endeavour to engraft-on the, J3ill &ordi, to the effect which he liad in view. Any cation of the Act of 17 . 0, namely,• enabling the Bank'tO give ; notice to the Speaker -previous .to• reStniug - partiltl payMents. .would be uselesi. The lion kieritleman proposed an 'amendMerit,. enabling the ;Directors tOpayin cash; either forth" with, or at any time previous to the fith . Of 'July; 1.51.8, and that they:shalLtkliable after that , perioff to pay their notes ondemand, The CruAtvcat.Laisof the Exenatautx read some words whiCh he inteuded to propose to insert in the preamble. Vie amendment:cif the [lon. Gen.. : ileman was not calculated to - effect the object '; which-he bad in view'. W h at he (the chancellor . of the Exchequer) . would propose was, " that the Batik should,. as soon us posSihle, resume payL, =main cash but in order to tiffOril time for re', visaing thole paytnents, without public inconvei'. riericc; - !cc," Mr. GRiiNFELt should prefer to the opinion of the Riglit Hon. Gyrolmam, a declaration of the sense ut Parliament. Mr, MARIV/ATT conceived that, there was a great difference between the chutge propoieti by the Hon. Gentleman and the words ofthe„Ohancellor tlf the Exchequer. They would conlo'ip . , only a declaration of the opinion of the froll4e, whilst the clause would be impeeittive. Something should be done to oblige the Bank to resume cloth-pay— ments. Atter , showing the inconvenienaies and dangers which might result from their sospession, he concluded by expressing his intention to•vote for Mr. Ilorner's amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHttle,UEß thought the Hon. Gentleman seemed to differ front all others, for every one had considered that a de claration of the sense of Parliament would be sufficient. He appeared to wish for something more, hot he did not say what he wanted. Mr. Swirl" was understood to support the clause, as more explicit. Mi. Biomes conceived, that The proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman was nothing more than one of those ordinary renewals which the country had been accustomed to since 1797. He wished, therefore, that Parliament would lay It down in terms in the Bill what was hop9d and expected front the Bank of England. It was also of consequence to restrain Country Bankers from indulging *nape. culations so ruinous to the public happiness. The 'Hon. Gentleman 'suggested to insert " that,it it eXpedient, &e. but that, at the expiration of that period it should cease, and be of effect no longer." Mr. HOSKIS3ON contended, that the Bill was one for affording the Bank , time for preparation, and not with a view to political objects, fled nutted the necessity of introducing sortie Words to remove all doubts upon the subject, and thought the Bank should understand that they were to renew cash payments at the expiration of the present restrictions, and mowed to alter the pre. amble to this effect. Atter some ctillyers4tion between Mr. liorner,,