The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-23 00:00:00

EVENING EDITION. 2 I tin the preamble. That would prevent its being drawn into a precedent, and avoid those inconveniences and possible dangers to which the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Speaker of the House, had so properly called their attention. The Bill went through the Committee, and the House resumed. POOR-LAW AMENDMENT ACT. Lord J. RUSSELL having moved the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Poor-law Amendment AO, Captain PECHELL presented a petition from a town in Sussex, forming one of the seventeen parishes in the Sutton Union, complaining of the Bill, and praying that the clause relating to the Gilbert Act might be expunged. Sir A. GRANT and Mr. LANGDALE presented similar petitions, the latter being from Springfield, near Chester. Mr. HODGSON HINDE then rose to move that it be an instruction to the Committee to define the ne cessary rides, orders, and regulations for the manage ment of the poor and the government of workhouses, and make provision for the discontinuance of the power of legislation now possessed by the Commissioners ; and for confining the power of the said Commissioners to the completion of unions, and the superintendence and inspection of the beards of guardians. The Hon. Member was proceeding to address the House when , he was interrupted by Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who said that this would defeat the Bill, and therefore it could not be the sub ject of instruction to the Committee. The SPEAKER was understood to decide that the motion was irregular, and it was therefore withdrawn. Mr. W. DUNCOMBE said he hoped the Noble Lord (J. Russell) would give an assurance to the House that he did not desire to hurry this Bill through its future stages before the Easter holidays. It appeared to him to be due to the great body of pe tioners who bad petitioned the House against the Bill, that no unusual course should be adopted with regard to it, and that ample time should be given to consider its provisions after it had gone through Committee.— (Hear, hear.) Und.:r these circumstances he trusted the Noble Lord would assure the House that he had no intention of hurrying the Bill through before Easter. He trusted it would not get through the Committee be fore Easter, but if it should he trusted the Noble Lord would not press its other stages, but would afford ample opportunity to the lime and the country to consider its various provisions. Lard F. EGE RTON wished, before Cie Speaker left the Chair, to enter into an explanation, which he thought was due to himself, to the Noble Lord, and the House. He had understood that there were pe'i- Cons against the BM most numerously and respectably signed from Manchester and Salford. These petiCous were now in the course of signature, and would pro bably receive many more signatures before they were presented. They were not only against the present but were also in opposition to t!-,e principle of the Poor-law Amendment Ac!. He had bar.en applied to to present thee petitions, but having voted for ti.e se cond reading of the Bill on Friday night, he ha I ad vised the petitioners to request some other Member to present the petitions, but at the same time he stated to them that if they still desired he should present their petitions he would do so. At the same time be could not but consider tho intelligence he had received as an indication of a very strong feeling on the subject is the manufacturing districts, at the existence of which he was not surprise,!.—(Cheers.) Having had cGnsider able txperience of the operaton of the old law in the south of England he had come to the conclusion that the syst'm there adopted required great alteration, and he thought the alteration that had been effected there by the present law was in every respect an improve ment. At the same time he regret:el that rti:er dis stricts differeLtly circumstanced should have been sub jected to it, and thought it might be ua•ter for coe,i &ration wh(ther it ought to be cxtcnded to diets ti ;here circumstances did not render it absoLitely ne, e He trusted the N‘..ble Lord would gra:A further tle!ay. Lord .1. RUSSELL—It was by no means hi; wish to hurry the l'our-ltw 13:11 throuAlt the (Hey., hear.) Ile wished to proceed day by day wA,:i the consideration of the clauses, because in a al! of so much iniper awe it was de,i.-abc to I at c as full an :attcndanca as possibly, ;Ind t to interposition of other 11:u4iness tensed to distract attention iroua sear.) With resp,ct to wnat hal been said by the Nible Lord opposite, he did not doubt but that a :in ineously s;gned petit on had been presented against the 13:11 from Maoclicster, but he could not ~1!ovz that proved that the generi.l feeling of the people in thitt town was against it. Oa the contrary, so !ar as his information wont, the feeling was the ce.ier w a y.— (I,•ar, hear.) In so la-ge a place it was alvnlys easy toolttiu a numerous attendance at a puUlic raCe'• ing, when the te•lings of the people were roused upon the subject of it, yet he understood t' at not more than 300 persons attended the meeting at which the petition was agreed to, and that the signatures to it had obtained by very considcrabll industry, and same mis representation. Mr. J. FIELDEN could assure the Notla Lord cheater, that the tiOnithrbisniaiio, , kak_BO strong in Man thority of the Government, would never sueeeed to putting it into force there. It was wholly unsuite It ) the manufacturing districts, and would never be adopted in them. Sir E. SCIGDEN hoped the Noble Lord woul 1 pro pose some chase, providing that aged wives and hus bands, when driven to the workhouse, should not he separated..—( Hoar, hear). That question had much excited the public mind, and he thought some provision of that sort was necessary. If the Noble Lord did not propose such a clause, he (Sir E. Sugden) would feel it his duty to do so. Colonel WOOD said, in the Staines Union work house, of which he was an ex-officio guardian, such a practice did not exist. The aged married people had good rooms, with a comfortable fire—they were not heated with warm water. Hr. W. ELLIS said the aged poor were not so lodget3 in a vast number of the unions, and he trusted he wouf'l receive the support of the House when be proposed the amendment of which ho had given notice. Mr. LI:ADER said a very strong feeling prevailed in the coun,kry on the subject. The Noble Lord said that there we're not so many petitions presented on the question as nvigi:t be expected. He (Mr. Leader) could account fol . that from the manner in which peti tions were treateG in. that House—it was in fact a farce. The people had no c onfidence in the House. There was no political subject on which the public hen so strong a feeling as the question of the Poor-laws ; and the Noble Lord was mistak RD if ho imagined that the strongest feelings possible woul,. not continue to be exhi bited by the working classes on t, r :.at subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL gain' be had stated no such thing as the Hon. Member attriL l 'uted to him. He bad merely alluded to what he beam' respecting the Manchester meeting. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL was ,Ipposed to the Poor-law Commissioners having theright to sum mon befor e t h em persons attending public m ,v-ti ‘e n ‘ "s who belonged to the Poor-law establishment s . " understood the Hon. Baronet to ask for some inforn to • tion on that subject. Lord J. RUSSELL said he o uld not th en i n f orm I the Hon. Baronet on the subject , but that ho intended I to make inquiries into the matter, and that he would communicate the result. Mr. SLANEY said that as he bad been Chairman of the Committee appointed to inquire int o the clauses of the Poor-law, he was enabled to state that th ee Re port of that Committee s howe d that abuses of th e grossest nature took place under the old system. Some change was certainly necessary, and he thought the Noble Lord should be allowed sufficient time to give the subject due consideration, and thereby be enabled to remove those abuse:. After a few words from General EVANS, Mr. WAKLEY said he hoped that something would be done with reference to the principle which the mo tion involved. At present the entire government of the workhouses was left in the hands of the Commissioners. They made whatever rules, and orders, and regulations they pleased. The boards of guardians were so many puppets or nonentities in their bands. There was a fact, bearing on th e su bj ec t, w hi c h l ate l y came t o hi s I knowledge, and whi c h h e th oug ht it hi s d uty to men tion to the House. The circumstance involved a great amount'of moral guilt.—(Hear, hear.) A case had lately been investigated at Shire H a ll, in Nottingham shire, this subject of which was a paup er name d P ar k es . It appear e d on evidence that the man died f rom exhaus tion. The overseer surgeon were brought b e f ore the Magistrates, a int having been made a ga i nst them that they ne gi em , e t p e l d to done on the occasion. do what th e y ou g ht t o h ave The surgeonv stated to the Ma gistrates that they had endeavoured theto fro m r o u b l t e ain they ma t d h e e board of guardians a rela xat i on with respect to giving nutriment in cases of destituti on and exhaustion. For six:vreeks h e continuedrectedthat entreating them them to alter the rule which directed surgeon ordered anything beyond thed i ietar i y ii which the diet table contained, it was not to he gives t , the he hoard bad sanctioned the prescription.—(Hc ar , that, in point of fact, if a medical man svitnessaerd)a r 50 pa tient of his dying hour by hour from weakn ess o ex haustion, he had not the power—the governor had not the po wer —t o g i ve t h e s i c k man a glass of w i ne or a single ounce o f meat . Wh e n the questren was discussed b e f ore tie B . rc hMagi:trate, n ame d Roll eston, who was a Membert a of that House, and who he (Mr . W.) hoped was then !oleo' as could p he ex plain(mr. tw.) hadbefaetstt of the case b e than he could, as he tion in the mere ly read an account of the tranea> stated that he p ublicbelic papers—that Hon. G. athanan with the ed the rule in question had met geon had called on disapprobatio nhim(t the Commissioners. A su- hi (Mr. W r : W.) his surprise at he bal ,mtto-day, takingand exprt I communication which nonce of a WA) stating that Le did not rseenoet him. Un his (11Ir. ll Con, and requesting him to mentio n disput e I.c.th referred, the swgeon said tat he the a the Usbridg Board of Guardians, H. (the surgeon) found it necessary in consequence of the destitute state in which he found the poor in that district, to order as a remedy nutriment to support and sustain their emaciated frames. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read the correspondence which had passed between Mr. Reyner and the Poor-law Commissioners. In his first letter to the guardians, dated December 3d, 1840, Mr. Reyner stated that as he had been informed that it was deemed unreasonable on his part that he should have given orders for mutton, beef, and beer, for certain patients in the union, he thought it right to acquaint the board that he had in no single instance given any orders of that kind which he had not felt it his duty to do, and that he considered that a proper quantity and description of nourishment was of as much importance in the treatment of his patients as any other remedy. The board of guardians had after wards come to a resolution to the following effect : that as Mr. Reyner, out of nineteen patients during the week, which he had attended, had ordered mutton, beer, and bread to fourteen, and as it appeared he had ordered relief for two parties who were not in the list, Mr. Reyner should be required to furnish the guardians with explanation on the subject. Mr. Reyner stated in reply, that he considered the diet he had ordered, necessary to his patients, and so long as he continued an officer, he would, under the same circumstances, pursue a similar line of conduct. He had heard that some of his orders had been refused and others torn up ; and he, therefore, considered it his duty to state distinctly to the board, that he would , not take upon himself the care and responsibility of the patients to whom his orders were refused, nor risk the danger which might follow from such refusal, but he would feel himself bound not to continue in his office under such disadvantageous and hopeless eircumstances. Next came the letter addressed to the Poor-law Commis sioners, in which Mr. Reyner having enclosed the corre spond ence between himself and the guardians, solicited their answer upon three points. He wished to know whether he had the authority as a medical officer to order any description or article of diet for the pauper patients under his care ; secondly, from whence did that authority arise; and thirdly, whether the board of guardians, or the relieving officer, had the authority to re fuse the diet which he, as a medical officer, deemed necessary for his patients ; and if so, what would be they ground for such refusal. The answer of the ' Commissioners was dated the 4th of March. It was to the following effect :—" The Poor-law Commis slant rs acknowledge the receipt of your letter of tho 4th ult., and its enclosures. They have had under their consideration the inquiries you submitted to th,ma. with respect to your authority as a medical offi cer, so order any description of diet you might think fit for paupers under your care. The Commissioners in re ply, desire to inform yen, that a medical officer is nrt empowered by the order of the Commissioners, or by his contract with the guardians, to order articles of di at for pauper patients under his care. Such a pewter would be equivalent to the power of giving re lies, which the law has vested generally in the guardians, and which it is not competent to a medical officer to exer ciee. A medical officer can only recommend or advise guardians or relieving, officers to give certain articles of diet to pauper patients, and the guardians or the relieving °M eet-a, will exercise their discretion on their own responsibi lity', whether or not thy should adopt such recorn rei 'lndation or advice." The guardians, then, continued the. Bon. Gentleman, after having entered into a con tract with a medical practiiiover to take care of the poor, themselves undertook their medical treatment.— ( }tear.) It was doing neither more nor less. Too medical gentleman might say that nutriment iv es wanted; and, instead of ilithy drugs, he might recom mend wioe, beef, mutter,, jellies, soup, and other ne cessaries ; but, as these were costly things, they could not b. given w ithout the sanction of the guardian?, who might not meet for a week after. Bat what was to be come of the peer in the meantime ? It was a consi. der AtiOn to 'IA the mind wick disgust and horror ; sat uy such a law they would pronounce a tentence of death iig4inst hundreds of ti e:r fi'f,w-couet• ‘Vii,t was th e trcit.met cif criaiiti.il ;rink'? store the docit nts restraimid the: e in that way''— ( Hear, hear.) The iLuse knew full well they were not restrained. They might order any articles of diet ti.ey chose ; and in the gaols of this ceentry, where ' m en who had violated the law were confined nutriment of ttvery description was inv•iriably giver: on the uccor.- t , olleJ prescription nod advice of tie medic if cake,. ; but when these unhappy poor, who had labouted tur years to add to the dimity and renown of the country, were iu a t Ile of destitution, nod in one: of those gaols which hail hc ea const.-th tvi 11r their convenience, if a medical Crlietr prescribed a remedy which he deernel eseeatiol to their very existence, it could not be given without toe sanction tithe non-medical boarte no wished to s'ete that fact ; they might 4o w.t.11 it os they p!e Mr. DARiIY wished to set the lion. e,ntleman right as to one point. If the Board did not meet within a certain time, and the medical man said danger wooll ensue, if the necessary tact was not given an enter might be ohla'ned from a Magistrate for the pur -1 pace of procuring it. Sir H. VERNEY said tie C[l3o St‘t Id by the Hon l'eleinber for Finsbury was quite new to hint. It tier ! tainlv would give loin great pain if he thought such misery - could be caused as had been stated, but he aloa t ight , that the provisions of the Bill afforded every re •- ”snnt cvn: - V I case that could arise., Lord HOWICK, having seen something of the ad ministration of the Poor-laws, could distinctly state that ice had never remembered a case in which a board of guardians hal hesitated for one single instant, in or dering neurishmente, and the most exFensive nourish meats, .vine and so on, in cases where they he:iete them to be necessary.—(Cheers from tie Poor-law Act supporters.) He begged to tell the Hon. Mem ber for Finsbury, that it did not fellow because a "Well happened- to have received a medical educetioe, or to be a member of the College of Surgeon's, or some other learned body, he was not at the same time a per son whose object was to exeite dissatisfaction in the population.—( Hear, hear.) It did not follow that lie might not be a man who wished to curry a low and despicable popularity, and to endeavour to create an outcry for no proper reason—(Cheers)—it did not follow that he might not be capable of abusing the trust reposed in him, and availing himself of the autho rity he exercised as an officer of the union for the pur pose of mischief, and in order to defeat that law which he ought to assist in administering.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If a board of guardians had reason to suspect, and were of opinion, that under the plea of orderieg a proper medical treatment that officer was setting aside the system of relief which ought to prevail, they w, re bound t ) act upon that opinion, and to decline the recom meadation of that medical man. He did not mean to accuse the Hon. Member for Finsbury of wilful mis representation ; such an accusation, he knew, would be altogether unparliamentary.—(Laughter.) He would accuse no gentleman of anything of the sort, but the Hon. Gentleman certainly did too readily adopt loose statements-- Mr WAKLEY—Has any one that I have ever made been refuted ?—( Hear, hear.) Lord HO WICK would ask whether they had been substantiated ? The Hon. Gentleman had stated that local governments ought to be maintained, and that all interference with boards ought to be avoided, and yet his complaint had been against the elected board of guardians.—(Hear, hear). He trusted that this case, w ; each the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward without would not have any great weight attached to it by the House.—(Cheers). Colonel SIBTHORP asked if there were no Noble Lords as anxious to seek popularity as this humble and, ice would say, respectable man, who had been subjected to, the attack of the Noble Lord ? How was it that thaee weeks were suffered to elapse before the Corn misationers -answered the letter ? If that were feeling neither the Commissioners nor the Noble Lord had any feeling whatever, and the sooner the Noble Lord had resi t ned his situation of a Poor-law Guardian the bett e.r.--(Hear, and laughter.) Sir ADOLPHUS DALRYMPLE—If he had listes led with pain to the statement of the Hon. Mem ber :for Finsbury, he had listened with still greater pain to the answer of the Noble Lord. These cases ought to bo calmly investigated. In places where the new p 00t-law was not in operation the surgeon had the pc lever to administer any description of food or nourish ttnt he might think fit. The statement of the H on . l' A n i amber for Finsbury deserved the most attentive con sick i .ation. The answer of the Commissioners did not antics ate that any inquiry had been made at all before the eproof was administered—that was wrong. H e trusl ed that these questions .would be e d x eb . ated_ . with o ut v in e e n c i l l.lim th n a o t tice th o e f the crimony that had that night beer,. exhibited. Cc . 'l° M n e e m i Member °fel; It.,,EinSsbTu °ryNhadcon complained a i - • k Union, he had set ex-of tick, guardian of the b'aystric his it tuition to draw the House to this subject. Agar) attendance could be, of was a ble to attend regularly, his dons visite.' it, being of opinion that unless a guardian little. service, and he should riot have gone on the occa sion: 7 eillUdea to had it not been for an account of a hor riblie. case which he had seen in the paper. He found an ;ier .'estiivation had been ordered. A pauper n amed Ma rs h had ' been removed in most inclement weather into , -the union-house, and, alter a few hours, he hatl die ii. He believed the inferior officers of the house had do ae all they could for him. The medical man st ited th a t lie had ordered tea, water-gruel, &r. He had br ,can asked what that &c. meant, and whether he sv mai not have ordeted something else. Ile said Yes, should have ordered spiced-wine, out it was contrary t i the order of the Board of . Gear,! a te. lie (Co!. R.) ex ph -essed his doubt of this order, and the medical man aled to the Clifjravin of the Beard of Li oardia , p, w; said th at although there was no written order, yet a ve. I injunction had been given to him to that cif which, • on the application of the medical man, I.e (t . se Chairman of the Board of Gnrdians) hall endea vc ut ed to get reminded, but without r fftmt.— ( Hear, , a . e ) At the same tim e I.e felt assured that the Douse ra ii t perceive that the Poor-law Commissioners had h i d nothing whatever to do with the order in question. 4 Hear, hear.) He 1 - selea.,:d the 'blame of this unfor ate occur:cat e did cot attach to the Poor.law COW.- # 31(nlef5 ill consequence of aey general order which THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 23, 1841 they had made. The circumstances, however, were brought before the Magistrates, and they thought it of so serious a nature as to require further investigation. The case was brought before a Court of Justice, and the Learned Judge in addressing the Grand Jury said, the indictment against the medical men who had sent this person in such inclement weather in an open cart, should have been for manslaughter, and not for misde meanour. The case was now undergoing further in vestigation. Captain HAMILTON said, as a guardian of a union, he bad always understood that the medical offi cers had the power of ordering whatever they thought best. But he thought the statement which had just been made, should induce members to pause before they voted for the fourth clause, lest what they blamed and condemned at Uxbridge should be enacted elsewher e. Mr. WOOD had acted as a guardian for a consider able period. The result of his experience was, that in all cases the medical man ordered whatever he thought proper, and the first intimation that the Board had of it, was an application to the relieving officer to pay the bill. Mr. E. BULLER had seen the same practice uni versally pursued. General JOHNSTON complained that the medical officer had not the power of administering to the patient unless he had the authority of the relieving officer or the board of guardians. Sometimes the guardians did not meet for a fortnight. Did the House of Commons sit for the purpose of starving the poor ?—(Hear, hear.) He extremely regretted the declaration of the Noble Lord at the commencement of the debate. A declara tion which confounded evil with good, virtue with vice —a declaration that there should be but one teat, what ever the cause of destitution.—(Hear, hear.) He called upon the House to pause before they sanctioned such a principle. Had it been promulgated by the Commissioners he would not have been surprised, but when such a declaration came from a leading Member of the Cabinet, he was totally at a loss to know how he could place any further confidence in the Government. Mr. GROTE said that was not the moment for commenting on the speech of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies the other evening, otherwise he should say that he never in his life listened to a speech which he more thoroughly con curred in. —(Hear, hear.) He felt the strangest admi• ration of the steadfastness and the courage with which the Noble Lord persevered in what he believed to be the only true and humane manner of dealing with the poor and with pauperism, in spite of the temporary obloquy which had been thrown upon him.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member behind him desired that the medi cal officer of every Union should have unlimited power, to order medical relief and sustenance of the most ex pensive kind without the possibility of the guardians or Commissioners correcting or disallowing such an order, in the event of their believing it to be unnecessary. Why, if that doctrine were established the medical officer of the union would become the real distributor of relief. Colonel WOOD said in the Staines Union the me dical officer was held to be responsible not only for the medicines, but for the diet he gave to the poor.—(Loud cries of " Spoke, spoke.") He was not aware of the meaning of the cry. The SPEAKER had a strong recollection of the Hon. and Gallant Member speaking of houses not being heated with warm water.—(Laughter.) Mr. EAST HOPE was of opinion that all medical ,„. orneers under the Poor-law ought to have the power of dealing with the sick poor as they pleased. They were entirely under the control of tee guardians ; if they were too lavish in their treatment, it would only be for a week or a fortnight, when the guardians had the power of suspending them from their functions. In his opinion all medical officers ought to be unfettered in the dis charge of their duties. Mr. W. ATTWOOD said the case which bad been detail ,d in the House that cvoling was enough to jus tify him, aad those who opposed Cie Bid altogether— it was that of a poor person, guilty of no crime bet poverty, sinking under sickness and disease, yet the n:c lical cificer did not feel hinis, if juqificti in affording tit relief which sinking misery required without the concert of the board of guardins.. Yet this was a system which the Member for the City of London supported. Ile had no doubt that that and many similar cases had ars,2ll from the !trolls: laogeage indolged in by the Commissioners, which La 1 been condemned by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tanrworth, and had not been defended by any one. Mr. WARD said he was astonished to bear any lion. Member so misrepresent the statements of the lion. Member for the City of London. He felt laelkei to call them wilful misstatements.—(Cries of " Order.') If he had used any unparharnentary le, of course, w ithdrew it.—(Hear, hear.) But I,is Hon. Friend only contended that tie medical cflieer should be amenable; to the board of guardians, jyet he was charged with inhumanity. In the district with which he was connected the medical officer or dered whatever he considered requisite for his pa. tients ; of course be accounted to the guardians, but I n no case, up to the present moment, had he been found Emit with. At one time a low fever broke out in the Bishops Stortford Union, when the poor were treated with all that was necessary, even to the amount of 31., 41.: or 51. a week for a family. That was a case and spoke well in favour of ' cae now Poor-law. M , . W. ATTWOOD understood the Hon. Mem ber to have withdrawn the charge made against him, and therefore had nothing to say on that head. As for m:srcpresentetion of any kind, he was glad he was in the recollection of the House. Mr. COURTENAY was not one who had ever courted popularity at the expense of his feelings of jus tice and right, or he might have indulged in abuse of the Poor-law Bill, considering the feelings which per vaded his constituents. The evils of the old system were enormous, and he respected the moral courage of the Ministry who attempted to grapple with such a subject. The evils were enormous, and it was neces sary to probe the wound deeply. He was in favour of the law, but he could not shut his ears or his heart to what had taken piece under it in the Bridgewater Union. He did not think it was enough that the sur geons should have the power to give wine or other ne cessaries. He thought ho ought to be unrestricted altogether in his treatment of the sick poor. In Oct. 1836, an epidemic of a dangerous kind broke out in Bridgewater ; it raged to excess, and vast numbers were ill. The medical men said it was absolutely ne cessary that there should be a change of diet to those who had not been attacked with the disease, in order to save them ; they asked for merely a change from water-gruel to rice milk : that was all they asked for ; but the guardians refused the change ; they said they had not the power to interfere with the dietary laid down for their guidance by the Poor-law Commissioners. He was no enemy to the Poor-law, but he could not but let the House know how it worked ; that great enormities took place in consequence of too rigid an adherence to the letter and not the spirit of the law. He trusted when any infectious disease existed in a poor house a change of diet would not be confined to those who were actually sick, but to those who were in a sick atmosphere. Mr. MUNTZ wished to call the attention of the House to the despotic power of the Poor-law Commis sioners. It had been said that if any pauper guardians could not do as they pleased, they were not responsible. Now, if the Commissioners gave such general orders, that, from circumstances, they were likely to be misun derstood, and the death of an individual was caused thereby, they were guilty of murder. The despotic power of the Commissioners waq, he insisted, most ob jectionable. No man of independent mind would be come a guardian during the exercise of that power— (Opposition cheers)—and the result would be that the Poor-law guardians would be ultimately such men as would not do that justice which the House required they should. With respect to the question immediately before the House, he would say that surgeons, when it was necessary to prescribe for paupers, ought not to wait until the board of guar dians approved of the prescription. It should be recollected that the people now-a_days were not such as those who used to be relieved under the Act of Elizabeth. The people were now willing to labour if they could get employment. The law ought to be altered in such a way as that men of good feeling and independent mind would become guardians. The House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. On the lit clause, referring to the continuance of the power of the Commissioners for five years, being proposed, Mr. E STHOPE rose to move an ame n d men t. He thought th at fin years was too long a p er i o d d ur i ng which t o cons i gn the family of the poor to the Commis - A. sioners, and he would beg to propose as an amendment to substit ute the figures 1843 instead of 1846 in the clause. Mr. BERNAL said that one Honourable Mm proposed as an amen d ment to the same clause e b ther had substitution of t t l b te evy w rlvi o ce r h d rd s s l l B B 4 4 3 l ,. another the words IBl2a Committeen ll another a e ether he should those It amendments vi,'as for the be greeter. He b ll e e gin wa w s itinh the 1 hands sS 'l; lulliedr e of t uu h mt e bli C err : mtorm. first-whether t withh ep e, and tie let g them decide. Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that he would op poseished the Noble Lord b to address in i' s l, :i h f Be t o Ea t n h il'e e N' i d m Am m Le e n d wt. iate question hefl'olie•e:LeorCdommittee ihiieshintention of ono 'us as to which of the numl•ers he should first Lord 3. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentleman l!ad propured an a me h n t (i t n o ie s t e w ncluegiu!tory conversation took place as 'el I A ) f i te h r o t u v g ar h d t s -11 e a which of the numbers should be first put from the Cehsai-o Mr. BERNAL, in answer to a question from Mr., Easthope, said that he had emit - avowed to state the case es clearly as possible. Tile matter to be decided wag, whether the numbers proposed should stand part of the gust' ion. Sir J GRAHAM said tl.at if the effect of the com mitting a bill pro forma would be to fill up the IA asks it would Le an important change. He was not prepared to assent to a doctrine, now mooted for the first time, and which was contrary to the opinion of the Chairman, and of those most conversant with the practice of the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had always un derstood that a Bill could not go through Committee without the blanks being filled up. Practically he did not see that there would be much difference in the plan proposed. After a few words from Mr GOULBURN and Mr FIELDEN, Mr GROTE said he understood the questien to be put, " That the words 46 stand part of the Bill," to which an amendment had been moved by the Hon. Member for Leicester (Mr Easthope) to the effect that the words 43 should be substituted for 46. To that question he proposed to address himself. He trusted that neither the Noble Lord nor the House would be induced to accede to any proposition to shorten the time below five years. He was quite as sensible as the Hon. Member for Oldham that they were now dealing ' with a question of very great importance to the wel fare of a large portion of the community, and not only one of great importance burof considerable excitement ; and he must say, that to him that excitement was an additional reason why they ought not to reduce this period to the short time proposed by the amendment. He could not wonder that gentlemen who, like the Hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Fielden) and the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley) disapproved alto gether of the working of the Bill, and conceived it to be injurious to the welfare of the people, should be dis posed to restrict the duration of the authority of the Commissioners to two years, or one year, or even a shorter period. But he should be much surprised if this should turn out to be the opinion of gentlemen in that House who had not come to that conclusion, who had not made up their minds that the law was injurious, but considered it to work well, and in a wholesome man ner, as he (Mr. Grote) believed, or, at least, not in such a manner as should induce them to condemn it at once, a conclusion which appeared to him would be incon sistent with a shorter term than five years. What was implied in fixing a period of five years ? It was not like creating an irrevocable lease of property which they could not enter upon until the ex piration of five years. They would still have the power to interpose it they saw good cause to put an end to the Commission. He conceived that this Commis sion was naturally, and by the necessity of the case, determinaEle at the will of Parliament. Gentlemen appeared to forget the annual vote for the salaries of the Commissioners in the Estimates, and that it was competent for the House, by a single vote on that occa sion, thus to put au end to this Commission without the concurrence of the other House of Parliament. He confessed it did not appear to him necessary to fix any specific period for the termination of the Commission, but as the House had determined that some experience should be had, and some period fixed, at the expiration of which the House pledged itself to take the whole subject of the Poor-laws into consideration, and to de termine whether the change required any, and what, modifications, he did say it was not consistent with the proper and legitimate working of the law to reduce that period lower than five years ; and for this reason, they would weaken the law if they gave to the Commis sion the appearance of an expiring and moribund body. If they were to continue the Commission at all, they ought to continue it for such time as would be sufficient to give the Commissioners the power necessary to dis• charge their serious and important duties, and not by frequent interposition to give them the appearance of being distrusted by Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) A great deal had been said by many gentlemen in the House respecting what they termed the arbitrary and despotic power of the Commissioners, and it had been insisted upon, as a prominent reason why the House ought to confine this power to a period as short as one or two years. Ho (Mr. Grote) denied that the power of the Commissioners deserved this character. Taeir power was large, because their duties were onerous aad comprehensive ; bet the question on which the House ought t) decide was, whether this power was more then sufficient—than the discharge of the duties imposed upon the Commissioners rendered necessary.—( Heer, hear.) When gentlemen talked of at bitrary power be (Mr. Grote) understood them to mean something sub jected to no legal or definite limits, but to e het extent did powers of this nature coincide with that of the Poor-I,tw Commissioners ? Every particle of power the Commissioners enjoyed was derived from the Act of 1834, and one or two sub ssqeent Acts. Every one of these Acts was subj ect to t:ic legal revision of the Court of Queen's Bench, by the easiest and most accessible process known to the law ; and not only that but every rule and order of tie Poor-law Commissioners was liable to be disallowed by the Queen ' s Counsel. And not only was there this lege! security, but, what was of great importance, there was the moral restraint under which the Commissioners exercised their power. All their acts were public, formal, aed open t) criticism, which, to say the least of it, was severe, if not acrimonious. Every act of the Poor-law Commissioners was subject to the severest scrutiny, and liable to bring them in collision with persona in influential stations, and to create them ene mies in all quarters ; and moreover in case of any impu tation of mistake or misconduct, there was no authority in the State that could so little hope for countenance or sympathy in anything like party influence or party feeling. Now, if gentlemen would discard these exprer sae—, ....1 e rr e,. ,hots minds to the real facts of the can they would see that this power eta nor ea.,. the appellation of arbitrary and despotic. If the power of the Poor-law Commissioners was arbitrary,what was that of Justices of the Peace, who derived their power from one hundred Acts which were construed in their favour in the most liberal manner in the Courts of law ?—(Hear, hear.) The House would re member that the power of subordinate legislation which the Hon. Member for Oldham said imparted to the law its unconstitutional character, must be lodged somewhere, and if they distrusted the Commissioners, it must be given to Justices of the Peace, to guar dians, or to the Secretary of State. That power was, he contended, requisite for carrying on the law. It existed under the old system, and he put it to Hon. Gentlemen whether they had not at the present mo ment vastly increased the security for the avoidance of abuse, and the furtherance of the real and true intent of the promoters of the law. He did say that the House would not do justice to its own intention if they did not continue the law under circumstances favour able to its working, and if they consented to reduce the time of duration of the Commission to any period shorter than five years. If they should acquiesce in a shorter time the effect would be that they would pars lize the authority of the Commissioners for good pur poses mucis:mare than for evil purposes.—(Hear, hear.) If they created in the public mind the belief that these Commissioners had not the confidence of Parliament, but were distrusted and discountenanced, their autho rity would thenceforward be neglected and it would be thought by their opponents that they had only to run the duration of their resistance against the life of the Commission to contend successfully. He said therefore that by shortening the Commission, they would deprive the Commissioners of that just authority without which it would be impossible for them to discharge their duty with satisfaction or advantage. He thought this reason was the best possible reason why the Hon. Member for Oldham should vote for the amendment, but at the same time that it was the best possible reason why it should be resisted by those who wished to support the law in its present efficiency.—(Cheers.) Mr. HODGSON HINDE said he was greatly surprised at the speech of the Honourable Mem ber (Mr. Grote), from which he inferred that the Honourable Member had never read the Act of Parliament by which the Commission was created, and that he had had no practical experience of the working of the Poor-laws. The Hon. Member denied that the power of the Commissioners was arbitrary, since their rules might be set aside by the Queen in Council, but the Commissioners had found the way to set aside the orders of the Queen in Council altogether, by making orders which did not come under the name of general rules.—( Hear, hear.) He did not stand there to dispute whether the power possessed by Justices of the Peace was arbitrary or not, but could not the Hon. Gentleman draw a distinction between arbitrary power in administering the law, and arbitrary power in making it ? There were doubtless many evils under the old system, but if a person violated the law, he might have been called to account for it. He believed that if on the second reading the House had not laboured under the delusion that if tLey rejected the present measure they should necessarily return to the old one, the result of the division would be very different from whnt it had been. He should conclude with these re marks, which had been drawn from him by the extraordi nary speech of the Hon. Member for London. Mr. WA KLE Y sa id th a t he had listened with great astonishment to the speech of the Hon. Member for Lon don, and he hoped that Hon. Member would not be classed by the Noble Lord among the mischievous dema. gogues for London.—(A laugh.) At pre3ent he did not himself know where to class the Hon. Member ; but he would repeat that he had been astonished at the speech he had made. The Hon. Gentleman was an advocate for the continuance of the Commission for five years. But had the Hon. Gentleman adduced any argument to show that it could operate beneficially for the country? There had been some ab s t r a c t reasons adduce d ; but where wore the particular inns' ra , ions to show tha t the Commissionto show worked well during the last four or fiv e y ears, or fire that it was likely to work well for the next established 3ears? When the Commission had been it was understood that the law was to establish a new order of thi ngs , an d some new functions of an ex tea ,rdinary chara c t e r an d peculiar nature were designed since 1834; and they were now in the years 1841 without hiving obtained the results they anticipated._ The Com existeL to being it into executi o n, The law had Leen . co mission had bee n c reated for the purpose of cror.ting uni at,rifdthtleie4r,i_e_ fon,ity in the working of the Poor-law. Tie dec_isions of the Mnistrates were so various, so chequered and diversified, so repugnant to common eiplei of humanity—those were that the Poor. Commissioners were to he created fur the purpose of producing throughout the land a uniform working and a uniform syst,nn. Now where were the quel l rule ? No. They were still, in his belief, as far general rules applicable to all unions? Was there one o d n o c sense e s fro m baying one general rule applicable to the Poor.law established as when the Commission had been first intro- duced. But the Commissioners bad been to work ; they bad done something—plenty of mischief as he had heard. But they bad incorporated into unions 13,000 parishes. How many more were there still to be incorporated ? Only 700. Let them try that fact by the rule of three. If in six years the Commissioners had been enabled to in corporate 13,000 parishes would it take them five years more to incorporate 700? Why, they might have al ready incorporated many of the remaining unions. They would certainly meet with obstacles in some quarters. All the unions in the metropolis were not yet incorporated, thanks to the mischievous demagogues, in some of its parishes.—( Hear, hear.) Things were getting into a pretty pass in that House on the subject of the Poor-laws. He had often regretted that there was not some place in the House in which Members who were not connected with any of the great leading parties could locate themselves, and seat themselves occasionally as neutrals. He had often felt great inconvenience and an noyance under the present state of things. He had -no desire to associate on that (the Ministerial) side of the House with Noble Lords, and it appeared Noble Lords bad no desire to associate with him.—( A laugh.) But he could assure Noble Lords that whatever contemptuous feeling they might entertain towards him—however much they might doubt the truth of his statements—however much they might presume to question what he had ad vanced in that House—however much they might be in clined to treat him with contempt, he could assure them without ill-humour that he could return the compli l ment ; and if he wanted to establish a character with the people of this country, he could assure them he would never apply to them for a recommendation of his worthiness. He thought it most unfair in Noble Lords to cast out in their observations any insinuations against the veracity of a person who in point of family distinction was their infe rior. But when the people had thought fit to send a man to that House who had obtained his seat neither by corruption nor family intrigue—and it was not the man that was treated with disrespect, for he scorned such a supposition—but it was treating those who bad sent him there with disrespect, to use unfounded in sinuations ; and such a circumstance showed clearly that those who made such insinuations had yet to learn what was true liberty, or what were the just claims of the people.—( Hear, hear.) If his family had been so costly to the nation as the families of some men—(Hear, hear) —if he had weight in that House—in consequence of the weight of public metal in his pocket—then he might be treated with more respect; but be should say it was not proper—it was not just—it was not consistent—it was not manly to throw out insinuations against an individual who had been the architect, who had been the framer of his own reputation and fortunes.—( Hear, hear.) It was by labour, by constant and zealous labour, that he had ac quired the honour and distinction of a seat in that House, and he hoped that while he was there he would be tried by the majority of the House, by his conduct in the House, and that if he did nought unworthy of his position, nor make any stat_ement that was untrue, he would receive a suffi cient reward is the consciousness that he had discharged his duty. What statement had he made that bad been re futed? But the Noble Lord asked whether his statements had been substantiated ? They had, however, been suffi ciently substantiated by the fact that they had still remained contradicted. There were parties enough which would have felt it their interest to contradict him if he had stated anything that had been untrue. It was necessary , for him to say that he had made no statement for the pur pose of obtaining a miserable and grovelling popularity. With respect to the kind of popularity which men might be desirous of acquiring, there would be a difference of opi nion. For his part he wished to obtain popularity by stating what was true, and by duly discharging his duties in the House. He had no desire to obtain any other kind of popularity ; and he was sure he would receive a sufficient ohs ck in the House if he were to make the attempt. The statements he had made that night had an immediate bear ing on the continuan:e of the Commission, and had been alluded to by various Members. What were the intentions of the Commissioner.? Did they wish that the poor should be benafited or that the poor should be coerced ? Did they wish that the guardians should be checked in the exercise of their powers and that a uniform system should be introduced? The results of their operations inspired him with doubts on these subjects. When a statement of any p a rticular kind was made in that House he invariably observed that a dozen eatlemen started up and said there could be no such thing, as in all the cases that bad come under their con,i der a ion there was nothing but kindness and liberality in the working of the law. The Hon. Member for Shef field would have given them to understand from his speech of that evening that there was nothing but uniformity in the system. But he (Mr. Waklay) held in his hand the last amended rules for workhouses, which were dated in August last; and in those rules he found an especial re ference made t> the power of the medical officers and the treatment of the sick. The Honourable Member fur Sii.ffield had stated that ' the medical officer had the power for the week of ordering anything he please 1, The 17th rule, however, said—" That the p eipers of the respective sexes would be dieted with the food and in the manner described in the di, tiry tables hereto annexed, and in no other manner." Teat was the 17th rule. The proviso to it was as follows :—" Provided, however, the medical officer may direct in writing such diet for any individual pauper he may think necessary ; and the master shall report such directim to the board of guardians, who will sanction or disallow them at their discretion." If, then, the medical officer recommended wine, meat, and other such nourish ment to tis patients, the master of the workhouse could not comply with his injunctions. Mr. Johnson, the go vernor of the Bastford Union, had stated in evidence he had given, that the board of guardians had made a rule that no wine, beer, ale, or stimulants, should be given without the sanction of the board. That was in the books of the guardians, and it was only in compliance with the order of the Commissioners themselves. These regulations might not have been followed in certain in stances. The truth was that there was nothing but dis order instead of uniformity in the present operation of the law ; and surely that was no ground for continuing the pew,- J tit fAIC comreieeioners for five years more. Under the circumstances it was their duty to make the duration of the Commissioners as short as possible, and to take the duty cf further legislating on the matter upon themselves, and not leave it in the hands of three irresponsible agents whose past conduct he contended had given nothing but dissatisfaction to the people. Mr. HAWES said, as he had originally given his support to the Bill in its introduction into the House, and as he bad closely watched the operation of the mea sure, he would not be induced by any fear of unpo pularity to swerve from the opinion he had formed, and which bad daily gained additional strength in his mind. He was bound to say, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Finsbury, that he closely subscribed to the speeches of the Noble Lord, the Member for Northumberland, the Noble Lord, the Secre tary for the Colonies, and the Hon. Member for London. The many evils of the old system should not be forgotten. It should be remembered that in former times Mr. Can ning had declared that it was no fault of a Government if it left the Poor-law untouched, from the extent and complication of the evils which surrounded it ; and in the year 1830, a Noble Lord, then Mr. Baring, said that he saw no means whatever to cope with the demoralization and difficulty in which the country was involved by the ex isting state of the Poor-laws. He did not hold economy to be the best part of the present measure, because the most important part in his opinion was that which established some control over the operation of th e l aw . Th e o ld system was, in truth, in' many cases one of torture and barbarity ; for under its sanction the old and the young, the vicious and the virtuous, were huddled together with out order and classification. They could not return to that law; but they were told at the same time they might overturn the present one. He thought that many unjust complaints had been made against the existieg system. He would instance as a testimony to the nature of its work ing what bad happened in the Union of Richmond in Sur rey, which was paid by the guardians as a matter of course. For eight weeks there were expenses for extra diet for wine, brandy, arrow-root, sago, and isinglass, and that was not a solitary instance. It was an everyday occurrence, and he would appeal for the truth of that assertion to every gentleman present who was a member of a board of guar dians.—(Cheers.) What had been the conduct of the Hon. Member under the old law ? Had he ever raised his voice as the friend of the poor against the abuses of the old system ? He would justify the new law upon this ground—that being administered by responsible officers, identified with the Government of the day, the most inte rest was excited, and public observation drawn to the ad ministration of the law, which never had been, and never could have been, attracted to it, while the administration of it was scattered and divided among fourteen or fifteen thousand independent bodies. He would defend the exist ence of the Commission on popular grounds—( Hear, bear) —because this was the first time that the administration of this enormous fund had been placed in the hands of res ponsible officers, and from that moment the administration of that fund had become an object of close and vigilant attention from the public, from which it had before been wholly free.—(Cheers.) Under the old system, with fourteen or fifteen thousand independent and irrespon sible bodies administering this enormous fund, there could be no security for the public. Honourable Mem bers seemed to have forgotten the enormity of the evil they had had to deal with. The Right Honour.. able Baronet, the Member for Tamsvorth, had shown that as relief was increased distress increased Could they forget the c ase o f th e p ar i s h o f Chouseley, in Buck inghamshire, where the relief bad been administered in such a manner that at length the rates exceeded the value of the land ? and the consequence was that at length there was no fund either for wages or relief; thelparish was left uncultivated; in fact, there was no parish. This was not a class question at all—it was a question of vital import. ance to the whole country, for all were most deeply in terested in the well-being of the poor. ( Cheers.) He thought the Hon. Member for Finsbury must have reck oned largely upon the credulity of his hearers when be stated that lie had heard nothing but mere abstract de elamatien in the speech of the Hon. Member for London —that there was nothing practical in it. What I was there no proof of the practice! effects of the new law in the in creased attention whi c h h a d everyw h ere b een pa i d of late to the improvement of the moral and physical condition of the people —to their education,-- to the state of their d we lli ngs, and to those sanatory questions which had never been discussed until the care of the poor had been committed to public and responsible officers ? The Reports of the Poor-law Commissioners showed that under th e new l iw wages had risen, and greater attention had Leen paid to the moral and physical condition of the poor than had been at any former period. Let Hon. Mern bers.le.ok at a n e i g hb our i ng country, S cot l an d , w h ere the adrminstration of th e P oor -l aws was not un d er th e super vision of some regulatirg power. He had gone over the Sent ill capital in company with an intelligent and inane physician, and he declared before God that his life had he seen such a mass of miser; and distress, .Let them not talk of the hardship of `iMe law in Engla n d, it wes nothing compared with tie administration of th e l aw in Scotland—thererelic; was doled out in fractions, in some mstane:s at the rate of a month. The poor there weresinking tt rsugh neglect, and throughout the country they were calling for some such superintendence as had been eata Wished in England. With regard to medical officers, by the 54th clause of the Poor-law Act, in all cases of I EVENIN G EDITION Mr. FIELDEN then :moved that the clauses - out, and Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the aumloA were— For the motion 49 For the amendment Majority The House then resumed, and the Chairman repo' rogress, and obtained leave to sit again. ORDNANCE SURVEY BILL. to s On going into Committee on this Bill, in answer question from Sir R. PEEL. Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said after the sit northereis counties were finished, it was proposed to adopt bash counties scale for the rest of the kingdom, which h e was suaded would be of great advantage, to enable them at future time to lay down improvements for the co untry:,, Sir ROBERT PEEL did not contest the utility .17,4 plan, but doubted how fir it could be adopted with Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said that next Year Abe r W ebid survey would be completed, and then they would "" sur to proceed more rapidly in England. He intended to re, vey the counties which had not been surveyed I -ere surveying the others. S:r THOMAS A CLAND hoped the work 00 the large r ginal scale would be completed, as well as on the scale: dig' Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said there would be a, t -1 culty about it whate ver; th e ma p of Ireland 50 1 gu published on two scales. m ead The further consideration of the Bill was then PCifiwr to Thursday. The Houghing Cattle Bill was read a second time...di The Copyholct and Customary Tenure Bill was r`.. second time. Mr. PIGOT obtained leave to bring in a Bill t° c°l3 -- P9 i lidate the Collection of Taxes in the City also to bring in a Bill to extend to the County of Da m s , ill and the County of the City of Dublin, the lava 11 " Ire' 'n force in the other Counties and Counties of Cities rod land, relating to the presentment of public money bf g juries. d The other Orders of the Day were then dioPt e k. and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Ciu of Dubliillit emergency, medical relief might be ordered by Magis trates, without waiting for boards of guardians, or by the relieving officer. There never had been the same means of furnishing relief under the old law. There was now a system of furnishing medical relief ; under the old law there was none. The proper way to discuss the Bill was by comparing the old law with the new one. Then, again, it had been stated that all out-door relief was refused ; and a great deal bad been said of the hardship of forcing families into the workhouse. Now, the fact was, that four.fifths of all the relief now given was really outdoor relief. If Hon. Gentlemen wished for more, they had better abolish workhouses alto gether. It had been stated that no out-door relief was granted. Now, what was the fact ? At the present mo ment the number of paupers receiving in-door relief was 126,519, and the number receiving out-door relief was 818,613 ; so that the greater part were receiving out-doer relief. Hon. Members, who had expressed their disap probation of the Poor-law Bill, had adverted to some im proved system ; but they bad net stated what that system was, or how it was to be continued, without some super intending control. Under the old Poor-law some pa rishes had exhibited an enlightened system of manage ment, but their example had not been followed ; and there had been nothing to ensure the uninterrupted conti nuance of such enlightened system of management, for if the person entrusted es ith the management of the poor happened to die, the parish relapsed into the old system of misma. nagement. Superintendence was the only thing to give stability to any plan.—( Hear, hear.) He defended the Commission on popular principles.—(Cheers.) It was the only way in which a sufficient control could be exer cised over the administration of five or six millions of money. If the Hon. Member for Finsbury would read the accounts of the old workhouses, and visit the union workhouses, ho would be struck with the favourable con trast presented by the latter.—(Cheers.) Whether the question was a popular one or not, was a matter with which he had nothing to do.—(Cheers.) He never bad held, and he never would hold, a seat in that House upon any such tenure.—( Loud cheers.) If he held the ques tion to be right on principle, he hoped and trusted that as long as he held a seat in that House he should pursue his own independent course, not that he believed that on this occasion he had any thing to fear in making this declara tion, for he thought that the great mass out of doors were possessed of greater intelligence than the opponents of the Bill gave them credit for, and would not be misled by the sweeping imputations which had been cast upon the supporters of this measure. He was perfectly willing to share with the Noble Lord the Member fur Northum berland, and his Hon. Friend the Member for the City of London, any unpopularity which might be the conse quence of supporting a measure which he verily believed had conferred larger blessings on the poor and a ccasioned greater stability to the property of the country than had ever been brought forward.—( Cheers. ) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE entreated the House to pause before they gave one day longer continuance to the Com missioners. The Hon. Gentleman had defended them on popular grounds. He (Mr. T. D.) attacked them on popular grounds, on grounds most dear to the people of this country, the right to self-government and to the right of control over the expenditure of their own money. —(Loud cheers.) These were really popular grounds, and so they would be proved to be whenever gentlemen should venture to go to another general election.—( Loud cheers.) Neither the Hon. Member for London nor the Hon. Member for Lambeth had brought forward any ar gument for continuing the Commission five years. All their arguments went to show that it should be continued in perpetuity, and they ought to bare proposed that as an amendment to the Noble Lord's proposition. The Poor-law Commissioners themselves had recommended it in their Reports, and he thought Honourable Gentlemen had scarcely done them justice. In their Report they stated in the most modest and unas suming way, that Parliameot was too much engaged with other matters that it had not time to attend to the details of parochial legislation. It would al p ear from that as if Parliament did not think the people worth attending to (Oh, oh.) That they were so engrossed with the affairs of the East, and of France, and America, that they could not attend to the wants of twelve or thirteen thousand parishes, and the welfare and comforts of millions of the labouring classes. They went on to state that it was im portant that there should be some body between the Par liament and the people to issue orders in a legislative form ; so that they were to have a kind of fourth estate to I , gislate for the people, which did not appear to hint to be very complimentary to Parliament. They observed further, that the style adopted in Acts of Parliament ren dered them hardly intelligible to persons who bad not re ceived a legal education ; and hence it was necessary that some competent authority should be appointed to expound the intentions of the Legislature.—( A laugh.) It did not appear, however, that these gentlemen were very explicit in their own accounts and orders. Some of the clauses were such as to bear one construction to-day and another to-morrow. But if such an authority was necessary in the Poor-law Bill, why should they not have a similar one with regard to the Municipal Bill ? Why were there not three Lord Mayors sitting at Somerset house, or a dozen itinerant Aldermen going through the country to expound the law ?—( A laugh.) He believed the Poor-law would act much more satisfactorily without the present Central Board. The Hon. Member for Last both had asked what would be substituted, and his answer was, Leave it to tho good sense and discretion of the Boards of Guardians. Was it to be said that Hon. Members such as had addressed the House that night, and who had avowed themselves members of Boards of Guar dians—was it to be supposed that they were such idiots as not to know how to expound the law, and that it was ne. cessary for them to have Assistant-Commissioners tied to their tails ?—( Hear, and laughter.) He believed that it was the intention of the gentlemen and farmers of Eng land to administer the law carefully and fairly if they were only left to themselves. The Hon. Member for THE FRENCH S TAGE AND T HE 1//0 , 0 1 0 Lambeth found fault with hi s H on . C o ll eague, Mr. e 5 *0 .....-. a Wakley, for calling the workhouses places of torture. PEOPLE, EDITED By THEODORE tIooK, .-... tit i e tt T o' Why, they were nothing else, and in addition to the in- requested to state, that the *new •woels e ditse" a by A t bo French Stage and the Frere c h p eo stances that had already been repeated, he would give ple," blisbe" oi dore Hook, Esq., in twe thern a case from Yorkshire, in which Thomas Stevenson, a mesterei the workhouse, was charged by Sarah Price with day by Mr. Colbure,, of Great Marlborougu eo lber: r e vols. small Bvo., is I: . ll .9tr eet , 01 assaulting and ill using her; he was fined 20g. by the Magis- may now be 115 7 1 e of all booksellers. M r ' of ° lie* traces, who, in pronouncing their judgment, stated that they also just could not refrain from pronouncing their opinion that the the, F - ourth, by the Rev. George Croly, 5 _ k ei itb° os ll P"..t,tished-1. The Personal Histoorcyond o li o e defendant had not conducted himself in such a manner as - vols. small Bvo., 21s. bound.-2. The 13°0 is., 9 Of . 2vo -. do ge . he ought to have done ; they thought he ought not to Name, by Sir Charles and Lady Morgan , t the td ro j i so have visited the female rooms after they had reti re d to Bvo.-3. Swinburne's " Courts of Europe at in j o e s" rest ; nor should he have used the indelicate threat of the Magistrates taking the pauper down to the cell naked as she was, Hon. the Last Century ;" 2 vols., Bvo.-4. Society I,n ots „ by an Indian Officer ; 2 vole ., post Bvo.--- 5 - Le b o ; ` ,3 Ise Members might think nothing of that, and Letters of Beethoven, edited by Ignane Motierw .n d, 6. . s e added that he bad not exercised a smiled discretion small Bvo , with portrait, &e., 21s. bound; r ' a , SS" in beating infants, and more particularly the infant at the Granville's " Spas of England," I vol., with of' breast of the complainant, as he had frequently done. illustrations, 15s. bound. -f,4, 0 0 Let any Hon. M em b er rea d t h at, and say that the work- 39, ALBEMARLE-S TREET , PICCAP 10,1i0% houses were not places of torture.—( Hear, bear.) Was POSITII Tax YORK HOTEL, AN) 76, KING WILLIA3OII7II29O'ori it any satisfaction to the poor woman or her friends to be OF ENGLAND.—Deafnesi, and those who are slightlr i 1 0 , 11 e t , told that the master was fined 20s. ? He did not think and find a difficulty to catch the sound of a dfist'sat Al :ol; 011 0 , 1 that under the old system anything half so bad, or so op- at a public assembly, will find a most astonit'oing .onted let pressive, had been inflicted. He disapproved of the power tit* use of the Messrs. S. and B. Solomons' nerdy-2" w t ee c": 0 10 1 ' conferred on the Commissioners, because it was arbitrary ble Operative Voice Conductor, which, when Q. zed ! e n „ o r 0 0 10' and despotic, and of little use. Look at the case that bad the ear is so small as not to be the leapt perceptibl e, tell. been stated by the Hon. Member for Bridgewater. It ap- comfortable than having apiece of wr,ol is i ts pl t ac e e• beg i s it s p i fi ., peered that dysentery prevailed in the workhouse, and the ordinary acateba andt the va ea tu rs ab a l r e e i s iam m en a t c io h a t , ra nec ay m ed ity f do m eu the b ir u , e , t t l l 3 l oft; guardians wished to give the paupers rice instead of gruel. duals in a great number ofinstan - ce P s r can hear most distingo 5P ,.. . 1 ,Si They wrote to the Commissioners in October, and re- them. It will therefore be seen that persons do not I nc a tli o ?" ceived no answe r unt il A pr il , and the result was that fifty start habit of being compelled at all times to make ° l6 rat TO; of the unfortunate poople lost their lives. He believed in consequence et the numerous indlir'iduals having " et ; 00,00 the law would work well without the Commissioners. relieved from deafness, they have become In ge es '' , I ,ol' ill: Messrs. Solomon,' Newly.inverited Spectacle Len ..° by or 0 10 He wished, at all events, to see the experiment tried, and they are placed before impee.ect eyesight, either l e s eit e so far as his vote went it would go to discontinue s.o ex pensive, arbitrary, and despotic a system. light, every object become', clear and distinct , and th e i t' d particle is seen with exact ' „dual) i r tf e l Mr. DARBY doubted very much whether the real opt- meets in the material are secrets to themselves, and 0 P' , o o , nion of the House could be taken upon the question now fined to their Estal-,iishments, 311, Albemarle-street, i' d oe before it, as to the time during which the Commissioners William.street, distinctness. Their A are oo - Bank. No connection with 0° 1 0 1 ' were to be continued. He was anxious, by shortening the name. oh time fo r th e cont i nuance of the Poor-law Commissioners ---- -e'-'-' a o v in office, to give Parliament a control over the very ex- S.TE-EL FIRE-IRONS, w i t h Bronze t , of vie tensive powers they at present possessed. „ a ra s ise * I' es. per Set, Bronzed Fenders, es. 1 ". w e lt }s r _ ao e' Mr. HAMILTON was in favour of limiting the pow ers terns and prices, from the above to 305., id ''' c roll' or of the Commissioners to a very short period. He thous h t fenders are particularly handsome, with splendid s od tbs o slt two years quite long enough. He was as unwilling es any richly intermixed with steel, the ends are steek ot go' 0 other Member to return to the evils of the old syst e m, but porters for the fire-irons bronzed. Polished st he was convinced that men would rather starve out of the from 45,, per set. ar t ' is workhouses then pine away in them with their families. Sir G. STRICKLAND thought that before the term i FuCna,__A Or" + .l. . . a sph l p o i n g n og N e s an d gratin, Ironmongery. BURTON, w the el i graces Wells-street, t r re 4 o f o wren reru l , _.s. required for the continuance of the Poor-law Commission, the Commissioners would have done all the good that was ____ Established 1820. ese_____--- 94j expected of them. BIRTHS. wal ker, Mr. VILLIERS defended the Bill before the t o On the 4th inst., at Rome, the lady of J. 0. f ie, House against the attacks which had been made upon it, of Hopehill, Aberdeen, of a son and heir. nr i-gle especially by the Members fur Finsbury. On the 14th inst., in Artillery-place, Finsb eter• rstre er Mr. W. ATTWOOD said the advocates of the Bill wife of Mr. J. Ireland, surgeon, &c., of a daug . csq ., of On the 17th inst„ the wife of E. W. Cooke, '' 101/ were obliged to thrust in all the worst evils of th e o ld s y s .. ~, . the ~ t , S e of a daughter. tern, iii order to justify that which was under tonsideration. O a n ce the u l r B r th y inst at Hungerford-parke Ber' - ' law ~ the —( Hear, hear.) The point of economy had been entirely George Willis, Esq., of a son. ire, given up, and they now rested their defence entirely upon On the 19th inst., at Ham-court, Wareestersb d of 6 the abuses which had occurred under the old plan. He of Henry Shirley, Esq., of a daughter. a Giff °r ',, was for restricting the powers of the Commissioners to a On the 19th inst., the lady of the fee'.'. J. --* Ibo'r" i , 11 0 shorter period, that the House might have the opportunity daughter. of frequent revision. On the 20th inst., Mrs. J. G. L.eviis, EIY - P lac- ' or Mr. HUTTON supported the clause. of a daughter. Mr. B. WOOD spoke in favour of the amendment. On the 21st inst., in Prince's,street, the lady o f G. Esq., of a daughter. Mr. MUNTZ had heard no sufficient reason for ex- —__-_ ill ol tending the powers. One of the reasons given was the Ma rai/ED• , Mr - oc° excitement which would be caused by fixing a shorter On the 18th inst., at S' period. That was an argument which should equally in- Morris, of Wilton Cotta' e, Tulse-hill, to Ore!! , ... f icm. duce them to vote the supplies for the same period. Until daughter of James lila' Bristo_ ' ma c, . cket, Esq., of Brixton -rose' oveeP 4 0 1 he heard some better reason for continuing the Commis- On the 19th inst sion he would be quite at a loss to know how he should vote. Georgiana, young , stdaughter of C. H. Tath!t ee l e r, Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the of Trinity Hosp , ' ,Matthew's, at St. Alphage's (al, Greenwich, to Edwin 'ffi` gel'', C. C. College R. e( t House divided, when there appeared— Cambriage. the-the TYr °ll sr"' On the 'zi^ . For the amendment - Ah inst., at St. Magnus- „ s _ ., 0 A e younger ;..on of the late L. Mathewson, rs g yin g e arY " Against it 174 Jane , 0 ,, and daughter of J. E. Saunders, Esq. , ' f* Majority - re, On our admission we found D I E D. or -W s t Grosven 01). Mr. H. II INDE on his legs, moving that the power ',,f I On the 18th inst., in Chapel-stree ; e. e i ' a t e / the Commissioners should be confined to the compl et i on zabet, 1, Countess of Westmeath, aged 7o ton, M rs ' sg e southatnP Esse . of unions, and that the Committee should define tl,e rul, On the 28th of February, at G ll 2e• ii , ah • d oe• s . 2 On the 7th inst., at Gottenbur t , ~ upon which they were to act. kills, armed Rev -* aln Ort 9th inst., at Milan, Mr. W. SIMI , A, Rev f Do r The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did -not believe, that On the loth inst., at Torquay, Chur eli qr, Devon, _ .., 0 1, the Hon. Member was serious, for if I--1 late j carried it would bind a future Parliament 4 % 9 ', its conduct Demi, near Doncaster,. aged ~9• r elict of the , 0. .. ht, no ge respecting the power of the Poor-law Cele - . t eel the 16th inst., 24 Calais, Sophteiad, "' s " ne e r sment was Gre&nam, M. A , elest son of T. Gresham, 12 ''q ~ e nissioners. States in the t io• Mr. H. I-I IN D E certainly did rioe se - can to divide the Sou ef, jun., Vice-Consul of the Isle of Wigel‘lsies Committee after what had taket‘ On the 16th inst., at Bll i i i n trile a y, % and one of 11 or 4 - ,,tace ; but he would much prefer to see the preF•itkt% r esill put upon the same the county of Hants. late , lias _.50 1; footing as the Bank Reirteeiese . Act—to last for one year Justice sof the Peace for Jam Le s Worsley, Vicar of to for D! G• d Moristra e ,‘ and no long, r, nant an e ew e. , e Arnaud, Esq., a Deputy-Lieute t Portmao"4 a 54. C, Lord El Co WICK de: . .t e/ed that any promise was held outl7th inst., in Orchard-stree , , a ge o ff. that the Commis,:,on would only be continued for five on. the tdaui I ter of . the late J. Turton, ee ,o s ti t'. es s son you tnges g 1 th • cit William Blundstone,) Ns r. 6 ' °4474. , it v "`- always understood they would be a !it Portsmouth, Frances, relict a the '-' p erring- On the 8 in. , 1 lin n icha Yle af 110nt ‘Amr:,N9ioO. in Bedford' square, Sir -°„ einns on so lt Col,-.,rioi SIBT. HORP should cert , inly do all in his On. the 19th inst., tices of the Court of , -; ton , Jo Pr -fic?-x to turn out the Commissioners, notwithstandir g :Knight, late one of the ju a s t Colebrook-row, 151 e- 101.1' t., ark , cl, like the Government, they had adopted the lucky numb-6'; On the 191 h _ir t i n s eimt_ lane. R e gent's - P i re lr. o five.—( A laugh.) He should take the sense of the House :Others, Esq., of . I" t 'Litchfield-terrace, , upon a motion for reducing the salaries of the Commis- On the 12th inst., a Emma Ireland, of Hatton-ear. on. r W. - le l' t inners to 1,0004 per annum, and the salaries of the Assts- . cm ge t. Em , rn of Hart-street, Bloomsbury, d ag ond, wife 0 - r• tent Commissioners to 300/. The travelling expenses *urOnic'tnhe 17th inst., at Putney; , I_ l _ Noosrthumberland. ad, j. were charged at three guineas a month, and he would move Smart, Esq.. of Trewhitt H l ous b e r , idge.. place, New - r° that it be reduced to one guinea, which was a very hand- On the 18th inst., at 'on a e _ se. • le., Esq., late of Calcutta, g dev some allowance. senate , eldest daughtor of eth.ell6a.te id. The amendment was then withdrawn, and •011 - -- Mr. FIEL DEN moved that the clause be postponed. Mr. BERNAL said the clause could not be postponed after th'y had begun to amend it. THE MARKETS. PRICE OF BREAD. fet th e The highest eof sireati I xhe Mar oolis Is 94 , . Loaf. Good Bread may be had at 734 d. I'RICE3 OF SEEDS. New English lteu Clover...6os SOs St. Fein ..... Per Cwt. 1 Old Ditto Ditto —s s—s Rye Grass ........ .. .. ...„, ..7 0 0 New Foreign Din.to —s 55s 70s Pacey Grass . ......... " . .._...1 °' P gil 01.1 Di to Ditto —s —s —sLinseeti, for feeding ......,` s 60, 1 .0 Pew White Clover 15s 50s Ws'Dit.o, for sowing .."' .....11 0. 14i Old Ditt ) Ditto —s —s —sOtto, for crushing .... .36i ... NOV TreOil .... -s " 4 " Hem,' ........................ Old Ditto —s 20s SOsCanary . ............ , 1. , 0 'Fr folium —s 4Sfi 70si Per nuoil E.,glish Carraway s 50s sis'White Musti.rd ... 0 d to I. gi . iis 0 10 Foreign Ditto 3 46s 503 Brown Ditto ........ ~A . "' Coriander —s 14s 180 Tares ........ .... ..... PRICE OF OIL. 10 .£ 0 0 Rape Oil, brown, per ton .... i fi 1 Ditto, refined .............................................. 7,i 0 Linseed Oil ............... . ..................................... 'i 0 Lins ed Oil Cake at the Mill (per 1000) ............... ' 7 • Per ... ..Q.f.i.rn....5..., l Rai e t ake. per to, .....,.... .. 0 PRICE OF TALLOW, SOAP, &c. per 1 1 " ) ... .X1 1 ° 0 Town Tallow .£2 11 6 Melting Stuff ................ 1 4 i 0 Yellow Russia White ........... , „ ... 0 0 C Graves ................... u Soap Ditto • 0 0 0 Good Drugs ........••" .., PRICE OF RAW FAT, per stone of 81b3 ' .. '..4 1 . IP Price of Tallow (as stated by the Tallo w Melters) ........... COAL MARKET. Ships arrived since last market day, 41 a 1 - - - - 6 W. E. EBnraddWdyanttier ............. ....... i i s s ° Walls End Haswe l t 8 Walls End East Hetton , .. ig n Wails End Larnbton ••"' O.. Walls End Pemberton l' ot i f 8 6 Walls End RUSSell'6 Het .. 0 Walls End Stewart's •••• ..... Walls End Coundon ... 18 I Walls:End Gordon •••*" s C°wPen ..................... .. Howard's Netherton —. Adair's Blaydon Maln l5 6 1 Buddle's West Hartley lB C Carr's Hartley Dean's Primrose l7 0 Lesze's Main . l5 0 Pontop Windsor Smith's Pontop l6 r West Hartley .......... Walls Et.d Bell and Brown 21 0 Walls End Heaton 2l 01 Walls End Hotspur Walls End Newmarch l9 6, o f Lon don , : Printed and Published by MURDO y gtra ouo7 is No, 112, Strand, at The Sea Office, No. 11% th%.county of Middlesex, —Tuesday, March 23, 1341. SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE' (LLOYD'S.) 1 ,01 11 VESSELS SPOKEN WITH.—Th e Mary, Berbice V stb, . 1 1 ! 1 27th, lat. 30, ion. 45 ; Ellen, Halifax to Jamaica, " i f 6:. loss of masts ; Lady Howden, bound to the Cape z' tin d Hope, 15th Jan., lat. 35, lon 22 ; Wm. Mitchell, °soot' Amsterdam, 16th, lat. 35, lon. 20 ; Rose (atear'ler), LpA ampton to Sydney, 18th, lat. 33, lon. 15 ; Forxscuettliveri: to Madras. lat. 5, l on . 21, b y th e C orunna , pool. Stephen Whitney, Liverpool to New York. III"' MIT, lon. 14, by the No r th American, arriv e d a t Livere,',.,did, r i b rai, London to Calcutt a , 23d, lat. ion. 1 4 ; T e- es, ' fl ed verpool to Jamaica, 3d, lat. 32, ion. 18 ; Nerio z , 0 41 o f lessls of masts and boats, lat, 40, lon. 19, by the Vi rb Tinitt, he Creek. Jane, Liverpool to Constantinople. 3 u, 46, A'r Cape Spartel ; Elisa Russell, for Grenada, 14th, 49, 1 1 0 9 ; Ambassador, bound to Constantinople, 15th, lat iCe i ls l " 7, by the Diana, arrived in the Creek. ThornleY, ( Ist i Hull, in the Gut of Gibraltar,by the Merchant, o r ve t ie mouth. Ocean, Bude, Odessa to Liverpool, 11th i ns f l,sic" gernon Bay, by the Thos. Woodard, at ditto. Ea rl 4 l ; SAP r ter, Messina to Hamburgh, off Cape St. Vincent's, i sre Ao, rior, Liverpool to Jamaica, lat. 38, lon. 24, by the, r a th O r' rived at Milcord. Emma, Cadiz to Newfoundla nd ' '- lat. 40, lon. 26, by the Dart, arrived at Plymouth. EAST INDIA SHIPPING. Oise.; Arrivals.—Samarana, Robertson, from Pengalr .; sailed 18th Nov., and b Capo of Good Soper "140;1% 7 4 Sharp, Watson, f rom B enga l, a t Li verpool, sa iled . le a Corunna Wilmot, from Bengal, at L i verpo ol, sig. Nov., and St. Helena, 28th Jan. A 7 .0 tilt° Arrival in Table B a y, C ape of Good Hope.---- r ' land, Guthrie. fro m B enga l to London. M 4o ° l Arrivals at St. H e l ena . — M ary Imrie, Boyd, f rig:l l o d '''' tins ; John Blake, Churchward, from SingaP °re, sailed the 28th for England. 4Cf t rgs: * 1 Phe, H ail 1.4 Ap _ A • der iets ~S T I 1