The Sun. — London, England, 1828-03-13 00:00:00

No HOUS'E OF COMMONS. NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR. ME DAT. Mr. Slancy—Motion for a reform of the abuses of the Poor Law, respecting payments made to and for able bodied labourers from the Poor Rates. Mr. Spring Rice—Bill to amend the law with respect to the rights and interests of Executors to the Estates of Testators. Mr. Wilmot Horton.—Bill to enable Parishes in Eng. land, under given regniations, and for a limited pe riod, to mortgage their Poor Rates for the purpose of assisting voluntary Emigration. Mr. Hugh Arbuthnot—On the Report of the Salmon Fisheries Regulation Bill, to move that Coutsel be heard. Mr. Hume—Petition of Roman Catholics of Ireland against the Vestry Bill. ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY. Dover Election—Ballot for Committee at three. Bills of Exchange (Ireland) Bill —Second reading. Juries (Ireland) Bill—Further consideration of Report. Salmon Fisheries Regulatien considera tion of Report. Annual Duties (Pensions) Bill—Committee. Annual Indemnity Bill Committee. FRIDAY, 3tAkeli 14.—d)AI)ERS OF THE OAT. 1. Corporation and Test Acts Repeal Bill—Second reading. 2. Friendly Societies Bill—Second reading. 3. Steam Vessels (Ireland) Bill—Committee. t. Penryn Disfranchisement Bill—Second reading. 5. Killiney Chapel (Ireland) Bill—Second reading. 6. Supply—Gonitnittee. 7. Ways and Means--Committee. NOTICE OF 'IO*TION. 2. Mr. Estcourt—Bill to regulate the granting Licenses to persons to keep inns and Alehouses. Wednesday, March 26. Mr. Jeplison—Bill for amending the law of Distresses and Replevins, in certain eases. Monday, March 17. 1. Mr. Warbuiton--To refer PaNsenger, Regulation Bill to a Select Committee. 2. Mr. Secretary Peel—lnstruction to the Committee on the Tithe Commutation Bill, that they have power to limit the duration of any agreement. Thursday, March 20. Mr. Sykes—Bill to declare the rights of Freeholders in separate District, or Counties Corpo;ate to ♦ote at the Election of Knights of the Shire of the Counties from which they have been separated. IMPERIAL PARLItMENT. FIOUSB OF LORDS, MARCH H. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at five mi nutes before five o'clock. Mr. DENI',ON and others braught up a Bill from the Commons, for the better assessing and collecting the Poor Rates in the parish of St. Mary, Merton, in the county of Surrey._ . . GRANT and others brought up a Bill, entitled an Act to punish Mutiny and Desertion in the Army, and other catms. Sir A. GRANT and others brought up another Bill, entitled an Act for regulating his Majesty's Marine Foreo 'whilst on shore. Sir A. GRANT and others brought up another Bill for watching and lighting certain Cities and Town' in Ireland. Mr. GRATTAN and others brought up a Bill, entitled an Act for dissolving the marriage of John Michael Henry Baron Robeck with the Baroness Robeck, and enabling hire to marry again. Mr. Gr.ArrAx anti others brought up another Bill for repairing and improving a road in Anglesea. Their Lordships' awnt was prayed to these Bills, and on the motion of the Earl of SIIAFTESBURY, they were read a first time. Mr. Peck presented papers front the Commissioner for the reduction of die National Debt. Mr. Upper attended to present the thirtieth report of the Commissioners of New Shoreham Harbour. The Earl of LAUDERDALE presented A. petition from Lord Mot ton, which stated that by a resolution of that House, passed in 1822, he had been deprived of the right of voting in the Election of Scotch Peers. The petition prayed that his vote might now be admitted. The petition was read, and upon the Earl's motion, ordered to be referred to a Committee of Privileges on Tuesday. Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from the Maltsters in Leeds, and other parts in the Wee Riding of Yorkshire, against the Malt Act. Lord GWYDYR presented a petition from the Breeders of Sheep and Growers of Wool in the parish of Wainfleet, county of Lincoln, against the Importation of Foreign Woo) The House adjourned at a Quarter past Five. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 12. The. SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour this a:lernoon. A person presented some papers relating to the expendi tnre of the parish of Marylebone.—Laid on the table. Lord STANLEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Manchester P o li ce Bill. On the motio❑ of. Mr. BASTARD, the Dartmouth Harbour Bill was, read a second time, and ordered to be committed. BARON ROBECK'S DIVORCE BILL. On the motion of Mr. GRATTAN, Baron Robeek's Divorce Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. BYNG obtained leave to bring in L Bill for the erection of a Bridge from Millbank to Latnbeth. Mr. BYNG obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the improvement of Covent Garden-market. Lord EDWARD SOMERSET presented a petition from HerdOrd, :.gainst the Malt Act. Sir M. SOMERVILLE presented a petition from the Catholics of several parishes in the county of Meath, in favour of Catholic Emancipation. Mr. H. HUTCIIINSON presented a petition from Cork, praying for a repeal of the Tax upon Coals. Mr. W. WHITMORE presented a petition from Bridge north, in favour of the Salmon Fishery Bill. MALT ACT. Mr. CAMPBELL presented a petition from Argyle, against the Malt Act. Mr. MABERLY presented a similar petitio❑ from Abingdon. Col. DAVIES presented a similar petition from Per shore, Worcestershire. Mr. HUME moved for an account of the quantity of goods exported to the East Indies, from Great Britain, within the last five years. Also an account of the imports from the East Indies, and of the number of ships and their tonnage which cleared out for the East Indies, within five years, ending sth Jan., 1828.—Ordered. Mr. DENISON presented a petition from the Malt sters of Guildford, Surrey, against the Malt Act. Mr. D. W. HAIIVEY presented a petition from Essex for the repeal of tha Corporation and Test Acts. The Hon. Member also presented petitions from the tradesmen of Daintry, for the repeal of the Stamp Duty on receipts, and for the repeal of the Malt Act. Lord E. SOMERSET presented a petition from the Archdcacomy of Gloucester against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics. Ordered to be printed. Mr. DALY presented petitions from the county of Gal way against the Vestry Bill, and in favour of the Catholic Claims. Sir H. PARNELL presented petitions from several pa rishes in the King's County, for the repeal of the Land lord and Tenants Bill. Mr. MANNING moved Mr returns connected with Slavery in the East Indies.—Order o L Mr. WOOLRYCHE WHITAIORE gloved that the fur ther consideration of the Salmon Fisheries Bill, slionld be postponed until to-morron•.—Agreed to. O❑ the motion of Mr. DAWSON, the Annual Duties Pension Bill was read a second time. The Annual Indemnity Bill was also read a second time. Mr. DANtSON moved that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply on Friday next. INSOLVENTS IN INDIA. Mr. HUME wished to put a question to the Noble Lord at the head of the Board of Controul, respecting In wiwito in India. There w as s om e doubt whether the law ex i st i ng - in this country, extended to India, and an in quiry had been promised. Lord ASHLEY. said the subject was under inquiry, and he would be happy to give sonic explanation on a future oseasion. a week. But the following document Wijl show the true state of the account between the Government and the Savings Banks :-- An Account of the Gross Amount of all Sums Received thA Paid by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, on account of Banks for saVings eluding Friendly Societies) io Great Britain and Ireland, in pursuance of the Acts 57 Geo. 111. c. 105 and 130, from their ebtnhlencennent at 6th August, IM7, to th , . 6th .an. 1828 (as per Par. P., Nog. 160 of 1617, and 36 of MS). G -„, wi z ' OTr t23 ;2v: ;31 'tt =, A4 .4r4; "' s ll.' 7._ E+ • c <d L' o o -e, V ..../. t. 1, .e . --. P. I• 4 1..1 •f. Ot CI rea - . t-• CT, Cii 4: e) cr, o c (7, ... ... N 'r) OD t kr3 r§2 C.l d t. ""' L.l . n 6 _ „; v 7 Ct M (t .-• .14 .4! .4. t - - •-.. t- Cn .4. if; ..... nr 41. tn 4.1 c/ an 71 al ri .1i V) ; ,*5 : c i- O 4? VD •ir re) 0 -}. -i 0 0 0 0 0: -... .1 -.4. fn 1- 7. 4i vi o cn o or) C 1.-- .... 2 t . '" "1i E g gesc!;.:7, CA , Ot CO NIP Cr: .; - t - t-. -, en 0, Ca (:- i- 4. Cq CC C" .. • • 1 4 Ci . 'iP t .... 4t , V 3 en i: Gei Cn .... .-4 o "Aiz. e_o .4"2 76 , 4 ?-;sr: as 2,i5v1;.N.S ay 1. 6 co ct 0 -# Cr) •-• CO 0 cn 10 C., CS) CTJ CE ' 0 tei CO re 3 G.? P-1 -37 . . . :I : .§ : 4;": • c : •:. • .. 1.. .1:5 :... ..c ., al 5 t:o 0 ^S i "El j 7; 0 41 C .+ [.. —1 ' 8 .n ri4 2 ', E- , ,—..."-..........,----....,_..........., o 3\; 0 o ~ ,, , 1 ; 01 e 7 , :r . 4 : ~i• „.. ----' 2, 1:- . • "0 ' . '-z v) G 0 5 2 p:64 ••:t 4-g; . T o t 4 , s 4 ;2, *.! , ,c.' 2 _ t Z'' .- . r.% . -., ,: . 6D , ~.. 71 ; 3 _ ~., a., ;" -,., •:', -;.; N. B. The Money has been purchased into Stocks at a high price, about 89/. per 1001. of 3 per cent. Stock on the average ; and if the Funds should fall to 691., not im probable in event of a war, or panic, the Government would lose 201. more on every 100/. Stock, or upwards of three million:, sterling. He regretted that when he mentioned this subject three years ago, he did not move for the apppointrnent of a Committee, or for a repeal of the Act regulating the rate of interest payable to the depositors. He, having been one• of those who had assisted in originating those Saving Banks, remembered that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was applied to upon the subject, it was well understood that the Government was not to pay more in terest than they received, and that being the under standing, he thought the Act which secured to the depositors interest at the rate of 41. 11s. 6d. per cent. ought to be repealed, and that some general regulation ought to be made as to the rate of deduction made by each Savings Bank from the interest paid to the depositors.— In some instances the deduction was half, in some only a quarter, and in sonic three quarters per cent. ; and the re enit of such deductions, which were more than sufficient to defray the expenses incurred in managing the deposits, was, that there were large surpluses in the different banks, with which the holders did not know what to do. The surplus in the Newcastle Savings' Bank, it appeared, was at present 4,8017. The Honourable Member also• men tioned the Devon and Exeter Bank as another example of the system on which those concerns were now managed. lie thought no time should be lost in abat ing an evil so prejudicial to the state. Another rea son for the interference of the House was this—the whole of the stock purchased by Government on account of the Saving Banks was 15,000,000/. which, upon an average of the last ten years was invested at tie rate of 89 per cent., and as the Government were bound to pay to the depositors the full amount of their deposits, the conse quence of a fall of 10 or 15 per cent. in the public funds, would be a loss of two or three millions to the public; he thought the money invested in the Stocks on account of the Savings Banks ought to be realized, and held by the Government as unfunded debt, paying to the depositors the same rate of interest as the proprietors of the unfunded debt. It would be but justice to the depositors in those banks to have some regulation introduced for the pur pose of preventing any loss which might accrue to them from the defalcation of any of the actuaries. The Honourable Member then moved for an account of the amount of interest placed by the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt to the credit of each Savings Bank in the United Kingdom during each year, from the time of the commencement of such Establish ments; also an Account of the sums received as In terest by the Government, and of the sums paid as inte rest by the Depositors on Account of such Deposits, from liov. 1826, to Nov. 1827; and also an Account of the expenses of management for each year ; also an abstract, giving the names of each Savings Bank in the United Kingdom, the number of depositors of sums not exceeding 201., of sums above 20/., and not exceeding 501, and from 50/. to 1001., from 100/. to 150/., and from 150/. to 2001. ; also an account showing the amount of surplus in each bank from Nov. 1826 to Nov. 1827, and the rate of in terest per cent., and the amount of bonuses (if any) paid to depositors since the establishment of each bank. Mr. DAWSON said he had no objection to the pro duction of the Returns moved for, and he admitted the subject to be one of great importance, and that the evils arising from it had not been over stated by the Right Hon. Member (Mr. Hume). The subject was under the conside ration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he had no doubt that in the course of the Session some re medy would he applied to the evils described by the Hon. Member.—The motion, after a few words from Sir M. W. Ridley, was agreed to. SAVINGS BANKS. Mr. HUME rose for the purpose of moving for returns connected with the Savings Banks : but before he did po, he begged to call the attention of the House to some facts which appeared on the face of the returns connected with those establishments. The money of the depositers in savings banks was vested with Government, who paid interest to the banks at the rate of 41. I Is. 6d. per cent. In the period of ten years the Government had received on this account 2,835,0001., and had paid 3,323,0 0 01., n o that the public had lost by this arrangement not less than 487,6271. exclusive of interest paid on the deposits. This MO a loss, including interest, of about one thousand pounds 0') CO CI , •v t 74 cr. rt : 3-) 4 - , b —, g 4 , .- g 0, 41 , .. ~ .. , 41 C 7, , T, cs., at 0 'D ..t , Co) .1 t . CO ~. 1.! -j 0 V 3 C+ 0 •-• - 4 ,, 0 co c► ‘f, I 0 cr) : . F., ~1 / I I 2 4 .t. _ v 1 , -EU ~ .- td 1 L') Z. --- ;..t - g 7! _ 75 §-" CA ,-. 4 a) •-. 0 * § 0 . 5 0 1... t. 4. ~,, ...7 :Z. x 11.."5 74 O 5' o i= !`... !, ;;;, ••=:, 0 Cl 0 0 ~ 0 CI t-• O r 1 0:" 4i •a Ct. -1 0 • C :.. ~.. -, 0 -:. • :" g • ° C • C et ,71 - T. , M IRISH PAUPERS. Lord STANLEY rose for the purpose of calling the at tentien of the House to a subject of which he had given notice* namely, the expence incurred by this country in passing paupers to Ireland, and as the county which he was most connected with was duly let into to a very great portion of that charge, 1w begged to call the particular attention of the House to a docum ent w hi c h h e hel d i n hi s hand, and from which it appeared that the number of Irish paupers sent from Liverpool to Ireland the last 13 years, were as follows 1815 3,847 1816 6,820 1817 6,052 1818 6,614 1819 6,138 1820 3,958 1821 2,789 1822 1,17S 1823 1,337 124 5,013 1825 3,358 1626 ......... 4,747 From June 26 to July 17, the numbers were 7968, and the wane incurred in sending then to Ire land from Liverpool (luring the latter period was 3,600/. With these facts he would leave the question to the md __ deration of the Hone. If they granted him a Committee, it was his intention that the Committee should ineet on come early day, in a pro forma sort of manner, for the pur pose of considering what returns they would Wish to have from the different counties, and *hen thiS infOrMation fives furnished theM, the 'Would lie eiasVel he apply themselves fa Ore.': to the question itself. The motion was then put from the Chair and agreed to. Mr. D. W. HARVEY moved for returns of the num ber of causes reserved to the Masters in the Court of Ex- chequer within the last six years, ending March, 1828, distinguishing the number then remaining undisposed of. An non.En whose name we could not ascertain, recommended that the motion should be withdrawn, in order that it might be so amended as to procure more ac curate iitforrnatidn on the subject to which it related. Mr. D. W. HARVEY, in consequence of this sugges lion, withdrew his motion. Mr. FIUME then moved for a continuation of the Re turns already laid before 'the hlouse, respecting the number of Officers who had been allowed to sell out their full and half pay commissions, under the Order issued from the Horse-GUards in 1f3.5. PROMOTIONS IN THE ARMY. lIPME rose to call the attention of the House to flit novel, and as it appeared to him, the injudicious and ruinous mode of proceeding at present adopted in the ar rangements of the army. The House was aware that up to the tad of May, 1125, officers were not permitted to sell their half-pay, but at that period a change had taken place, by which officers were enabled to do so; and in 1826 he had called for a return of the officers who had availed themselves of the permission to sell. But in addi • tion to the order to which he had already alluded, the Com mander-in-Chief had issued another on the 25th of April, 1826, allowing officers to sell their half-pay commission' to officers of an inferior rank on the full-pay. On moving for a return of the officers who had availed themselves of this privilege, he had obtained returns which would show the great loss sustained by the country under the new arrangement.--He would now ask whether any public officer ought to have the power of putting the public to such an expence as appeared on the face of those statements, which he extracted from the official returns, —an expense of not less than a million and a half. Those who did so, ought to be made accountable by that House , for if such a system was permitted to go on, there was no calculating the expence that might be entailed upon the country. He thought the Noble Lord (Palmer ston), whose plan he believed it was, would have much to answer for, when the whole account came to be made up. perhaps a loss to the public of not less than 2,000,0001. They might be told, and indeed they had been told on a former occasion, as a set off against that statement, that the numbers who had purchased were half-pay officers.— But that was not enough, feu• many of these had since re turned to the half-pay at a higher rank, and consequently with an increased allowance. His own opinion was, that the House would be obliged to appoint a special committee to investigate the subject. It was unreasonable to think of throwing the burthen of every inquiry of the kind upon the Finance Committee, who had already enough to do.— He had made out a ease which called for a distinct com mittee, for it was clear that the half-pay could never be reduced if it was permitted to go on in this way.— The House or the Committee would find, if they took the trouble to enquire into the state of the half of the French army, that notwithstanding the immense armies employed by that country, their half-pay amounted to a small pittance indeed as compared with the enormous list which at present burdened England. He had asked, upon a former occasion, what decrease might be expected to take place in the half-pay, and he was told a decrease of about five per cent. on the average. But although the Noble Lord had taken credit for relieving the country to that extent, the fact, as appeared from the documents, was as he had stated it. The House ought not only to call for the continuance of those returns, but to appoint a special inquiry, when he was sure they would come to this conclusion—that the effect of the present system was to promote young men, but not to provide for those who had grown grey in the service, as they were originally taught to expect. Such, „be would contend for it, was the result of the system upon the service.—Hear.— He had consulted many officers on the subject, who agreed with him in that opinion. At all events, he had done his duty in bringing the subject before the House.—(Hear, hear.)—How they would deal with it hereafter, it would he for themselves to determine ; but for the present he would content himself with moving for similar returns to those which had been granted last year relating to promo, Lions in the army, from the 25th of January, 1827, down to the latest period. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for a variety of voluminous returns relative to the tale of half-pay by officers in the army, the artillery, and the marines. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that his object in rising was merely to ask the Noble Lord opposite to give a negative, as be hoped the Noble Lord could, to questions which he was going to ask him relative to two particular circum stances. • He had been given to understand, and from the quarter from which he received his information he believed that he had been given to understand correctly, that a cer tain officer in the army, who had been employed in the civil service of the country for the last 18 years, and so employed that he was not allowed by the rules of the mili tary service toreceive his half-pay, had been allowed, after a lapse of 15 years, in which he never received a farthing in virtue of his military commission, to dispose of his half pay. By that arrangement, a charge, which had had no existence for the last 15 years, had been thrown upon the public. The question which he wished to ask respecting it was this—Did the gentleman to whom he alluded still continue in his civil employment ? The other question which he had to ask related to a similar transaction in Ireland, where he understood that a military officer, who had been in the Ciril Service for the last 18 years, and whose half-pay had consequently been suspended during that time, had also been allowed to sell his half-pay. He wished to know. whether the facts were as be had stated them, or no. He wculd conclude by expressing his hopes that, if the statement of the Hon. Member for Montrose did net meet with a direct negative from the Noble Lord oppo site, some Member would move that a Committee be ap pointed to examine into the matters to which it referred, distinct from the Finance Committee. Lord PALMERSTON, in the first place, would proceed to state that which he believed the House would expect to hear from him—namely, that he had no objection to grant the returns for which the Hon. Member for Montrose had moved. In the next place he would proceed to express his surprise that the Hon. Member for Montrose should seize the present opportunity for going into such details and cal culations as he had just opened to the House ; for he should have thought that matters of that sort, connected as they were with the army estimates, would have been deemed sufficiently important to be referred to that Committee of Finance of which the Honourable Gen tleman was himself a Member. He would leave it to the Honourable Gentlemen who formed that Committee, to deal as they thought proper with the opinion which the Honourable Member for Montrose had expressed of them— if not in words, at least by inference,—an opinion which went the length of telling the country that they were not likely persons to inquire with advantage into such transac tions. Whether the Hon. Member for Montrose thought that it would answer his object better to make an inflamed statement to the House on this subject, before he referred his papers to a Committee, he (Lord Palmerston) could not pretend to say, but this Le thought that he might ven ture to say, that the Finance Committee had sent for papers connected with it, in order to obtain the means of coining to a satisfactory conclusion upon it. What reasons led the Hon. Member for Montrose to be so impatient to make his statement to the House before he had ascertained the cor rectness of the facts on which he rested it, the Hon. Mem ber for Montrose could best explain himself. He would shortly explain the nature of the arrangement of which the Hon. Member for Montrose complained, as . he thought that such a proceeding would be the easiest way to show how unfounded the conclusions of the Honourable Member were, net only in the sense which he sup posed that the Honourable Member put upon theta himself, but also in the only sense in which they could by any possibility be intelligible to any gentle man who had the good fortune to hear them. Every person who heard the speech of the Hon. Member for Montrose, would suppose that by that arrangement the public had incurred a loss of 2,000,0001. ; but whether the Hon. Member meant that it had incurred a less of 2,00043,0001. capital, or of 2,000,00001. a year, he defied any person who heard him to understand. The nature of the arrangement was shortly this :—At the conclusion of the war a reduction of the army necessarily took place, a great many officers were placed on half-pay, and the situations in the army which became vacant on the full pay, were regularly filled up by officers from the half-pay. That system went on progressively till the commencement of 1827. It was then found that it had an effect of stopping promotion in regiments, and of continuing officers in situations for which their increasing age was every day rendering them more unfit. The army had become as it were stagnant, aid it was found that it was necessary that some additional scope should be given to promotion. The arrangement proposed for that purpose was this :—Certain officers of certain rank were allowed for a certain period to , sell their half-pay commissions to officers of an inferior rank • 6 on full pay, who might be inclined to purchase them, The consequence of it was to remove old officers from their I regiments, and to give a scope to preferment amongst the younger officers, who remained behind. As young Captains on full pay, in many instances, bought the commission of old Majors on half pay; the charge pit the. half pay list, he admitted, increased. The loss to the public teas incuired iK this manner—. 4 Major who might live 15 years, was succeeded by another 'Major who might live 25 years, and thus the public was saddled with an annuity which was likely to continue for a longer time. The period had not, however, yet arrived in which the Hon. Member for Montrose could affirm that any loss had been hitherto sustained by the public; for as yet the public had only to pay the same half-pay as before ; and it would not be till the expiration of the ten years that the public would have to pay the annuity exclusively to the younger life. He admitted that if there were no other check besides those which he had already mentioned on this arrangement, the public would be pledged to the pay- Anent of these annuities beyond the time to which they were originally designed to extend. But he had stated on a former occasion to the House that the arrangement did not stop here. Who were the persons who purchased these annuities? Those officers who were well provided With money. Was it to be supposed that an officer of for tune would buy a commission which would place him on a half-pay, if hehad no other chance than that of being shelfed by such a proceeding? No; the object for which men of fortune invested their capital in these annuities was plain —it was to obtain promotion. Let the House look not merely to what was the probability, but also to what was the fact on this subject. A Major who had a half-pay corn. mission, sold it to a Captain on full pay; the Captain then became a Major on half-pay, and wishing - for employment looked out immediately for a full-pay Major, with whom he might effectuate an exchange : so that by an intermediate change it often happened that one old Major on the half-pay list was succeeded at one remove by another Major equally advanced in years. Ile would therefore recommend to the Hon. Member for Montrose to alter the nature of his mo-, tint], and to make it embrace a return of those officers who had bought half-pay, and had afterwards exchanged into full pay. He would now ask the House to consider what was the result of this arrangement, even upon the showing of the Hon. Member for Montrose himself. The sellers obtained the old price for their commissions, and the pur chasers paid the new : and it appeared that in that manner the public had already received a sum of 72,0001. Against this gain on the part of the public was to be set the loss, which he admitted that it had incurred by having to pay a certain number of annuities which would commence 10 years hence, and would last ten years after they had commenced. Now he would ask, what annuity to begin at the end of 10 years, and to last for 10 years afterwards, could you pur chase for the sum of 72,0001. ? He should suppose a very large annuity indeed. Therefore, if that second exchange, of which he had just spoken, had not taken place, the cal culation on the amount of the number of pounds lost to the public would not rest entirely upon the probable du ration of the lives of those who purchased the half-pay being greater than that of those who sold it. If, how ever, the House would take into consideration the effects of the second exchange, it would see, that in all probability no pecuniary loss at all would be suffered by the public.— But leaving the question of loss to the public out of consi- deration, he would now ask what effect had this arrange ment produced upon the army? It had given the army an active establishment,—it had provided it with efficient officers,—it had given it a character for activity bud efficiency, which was of the utmost advantage to the public service. It was on that ground that he had originally proposed the arrangement to Parliament.— It was not propounded by him as a measure of pecu niary advantage, but as a measure which was likely to conduce, and which he would now say had conduced, to the efficiency of the aekvice. He would here observe that the Honourable Member for Montrose had pushed his argument so far in one direction that night, that he did not perceive how far he had strengthened the arguments which it had been his (Lord Palmerston's) duty to address to the Hon. Member's understanding upon former occasions. The Hon. Member for Montrose had frequently reproached those who had the disposal of the patronage of the army, with not having filled up the vacancies which occurred on the full pay with officers taken from the half-pay. On those occasions he had as frequently said, that though there were many officers on the half-pay who would be willing enough to serve, the House deceived itself if it sup posed that those officers were therefore fit and competent for service. He had said that there were not only Colonels and Majors, but Ensigns and Lieutenants, who, from their length of service, could not be again brought with any useful effect into active service. The statements which he had then made, were received by the Hon. Member for Montrose with a degree of incredulity which it would have been difficult to account for in any other Member. Now, what turned out to be the fact, even on the Honourable Member's own showing ? That the lion. Member when he reads through the half-pay list, finds that there are not only Colonels and Majors, but even Lieute nants and Ensigns, who have been on the half-pay for 80 or 40 years. Ought such men as those to be put upon full pay, and to be called into active service ? He said, with _ _ . considerable pride and satisfaction, that the Hon. Member fur Montrose had furnished him with the most favourable corroboration to the arguments which he had formerly used, in answer to the censures which the Hon. Member for Montrose was so fond of flinging upon those who were intrusted with the patronage of the army. The Hon. Member for Montrose then asks, " Is it not unjust to allow persons who had been so long on the half-pay to sell their commissions at all ?" To this he answered, that so leng as those persons lived, they must remain a burden on the public. Was it not, therefore, an advantage to enable them to retire and supply their places with officers who, in case of emergency, could be called into active service with out danger to the interests of the country? So far was he from thinking that the statements which the Hon. Mem ber for Montrose had that night made conveyed any censure upon the Administrstion, that be thought them most serviceable in showing the expediency of weeding out of the half-pay list those individuals who could not, by any possibility, perform anv efficient service to their country. They received their commissions under the rules of the service ; and under those rules they were undoubtedly entitled to their half-pay for life ; and the question for the consideration of the House then wa s , whether they would allow them to withdraw from the ser vice entirely, and to fill up their places with officers who were desirous of exchanging with them. He would not pretend to follow the Hon. Member for Montrose through all the cases of individuals which he had that night men tioned to the House. Nothing in his opinion could be worse than to bring the names , of individuals into debate on a motion like the present. The question which it involved ought to he decided upon principle and upon prin ciple alone. If the principle were wrong), it would not be made worse by mixing it up with individual cases; and if it were right, he would take his stand upon it at once. He would now proceed to answer the questions winch had been put to him by an Hon. Baronet on the other side of the I:1ou•e. The Honourable Baronet had asked him whe ther there were not two cases in which military offi cers, who had been long employed in the civil service, hand not been allowed to sell their half-pay. He would reply, that of the case in Ireland which the Hon. Baronet had mentioned last, he knew nothing,—he had never heard of it before. There was, however, a case, in which the circumstances of which the Hon. Bart. complained had taken place in England. And here he would observe, that he objected generally to allowing half-pay to be sold by any person who held a civil office. But there was one case, the case to which allusion had been made, in which the party on entering upon his civil employment, had received an assurance from the head of the department under which he served, that he should he allowed to dispose of his half-pay. That assurance, was given under the erroneous impres sion that commissions of that sort might he sold according to the ordinary rules of the service. That party subse quently satisfied the Treasury which examined into the transaction, that he had incurred, in consequence of that assurance, certain expences which he would not otherwise have incurred. It was upon that ground, and upon that ground alone, that he had been permitted to sell his half pay. It was an exception, which stood upon its own grounds, and which did not at all affect the general principle laid down at the War-office for these cases. He was not prepared to say that there were not some cases in which a sale of half -pay might not have taken place before he learnt that the party held a civil employment; for the House must be aware that he had no means of learning how every mili tary officer in the empire was employed. It had undoubtedly happened that individuals had sent in applications to be al lowed to dispose of their half-pay, and that those appli cations had been agreed to before it was discovered that they ought to have been refused. In one of the cases to which he alluded, he had ordered the sale to he stopped, but unfortunately his order was given too late. He would, however, say, that in all cases in which he had learnt that the pariy who applied to sell his half-pay held a civil op ' pointment, he had decidedly objected to permit the sale.— An Hon. Friend of his, whom he then saw in the House, could speak to one case, in which he had felt himself bound to deal out hard justice to a meritorious officer, to whom, on his own account, he should be happy to have ex ! tended the utmost indulgence. To return, however, to the statements of the Hon. Member for Montrose, of which he recollected that two or three had still received no : answer. The Hon. Member had stated that this arrange ! ;UM was th e me why the half-pay list had apt at all di- minished since 1917. The Hon. Member, when he made that statement ought to have recollected that since that year large reductions had taken place in the army ; and that it was one objection to a change of system, that reductions in one department of your expenditure always become a source of increased expense in some other department of it. The officers who were taken from the full-pay, were of course placed upon the half-pay ; and hence it happened, that as the amount of full pay diminished, that of half-pay increased. He thought it only just to the memory of the illustrious individual who lately filled the office of Com mander-in•chief—he meant the Duke of York—to state that when a great augmentation to the army took place a few years ago, he filled up all the commissions which it became necessary to grant, with names of officers taken from the half-pay. The Hon. Member for Montrose . had said, that the total number of officers on the half-pay list had increased of late years. He did not know from what data the Hon. Member spoke upon that point. The Hon. Member had moved for a return of the number of officers on the half-pay list on two different occasions; first, in 1823, and afterwards, he believed in 1826. Now he would state that the latter of these two returns was defective in some respects, for it omitted an account of some officers which ought to have been included in such a return, and did not give a fall view of the department into which the Hon. Member %vas anxious to inquire. It sometimes happened that when emotions were shown to gentlemen connected with Government, they conld give instructions upon them to the gentlemen who were making them, which were calculated to advance the object they had in view. The Hon. Member had not made such application to the people in office, and the result was, that in conse quence of his motion having been imperfectly worded, an imperfect return had been made to it. He would satisfy the Hon. Member for Montrose, that there had been a di- minution in the number of officers on the half-pay list a' the two periods. Mr. HUME—No, an increase. Lord PALMERSTON begged the Hon. Member's par don—it was a diminution. His surprise had been excited at the time, as to the manner in which 60 great a dimi nution could have taken place. He was convinced that there must be some mistake regarding it ; and he had set some of the persons employed in his Office at work to detect it. It was then discovered that the words of the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose were not as general as they should have been, and that in consequence some officers had not been included in the return, whom it was evidently the intention of the Hon. Member to have embraced in his motion. lie had no doubt that. the Honourable Member, when he saw the return on Friday morning—it had already been ordered to be produ ced in the Finance Committee—would be convinced of the unintentional error into which he had formerly fallen. The Honourable Member had then said that this arrangement was made for the purpose of enabling large establishments to be kept up in the office of the Com mander-in-Chief and of the Secretary at War. Lie was • quite certain that he should not ask for another clerk in his office, to transact the additional business cast upon it, by the sale of half-pay ; and he (lid not expect that much stress would be laid on the additional trouble which it oc casioned in the office of the Commander-in-Chief. He had now stated to the House the grounds upon which the arrangement had been made. The expense of it, he ro peated, was distant and reversionary, and they had to set against it the large sum of money which had already been paid down as the price of the commissions. He did not think that the public would be losers by it ; but even if they were losers by it in point of pecuniary expense, they would be gainers by it in point of the greater efficiency which it had already given to the army. Mr. HUME—The Noble Lord rests his argument on this motion upon reasons which will not bear.him out. He says that it is necessary to weed the old officers out of the army. If they had been going on actual service, I could have seen some show of reason in what the Noble Lord says. But as they are only annuitants on the public the case is quite altered, and the sooner they die off the better.—(A laugh.)—The Hon. Member then proceeded to justify his former statements. Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Government could not deal with its old officers exactly in the manner recom mended by the Hon. Member for Montrose. It could not say to them, " You must either sell or die"----it could only say, " You must either sell or stay on the half-pay list." Mr. MABERLY recommended the House to refer this matter to the consideration of the Finance Committee, which he had no doubt would investigate it satisfactorily. Sir J. GRAHAM wished to know whether the Noble Lord meant to say that the system to which he had alluded was at an end, and was never to be revived again ? Lord PALMERSTON.--I can only say, that, m far as I am concerned, the system of allowing military officers, who hold civil appointments, to sell their half pay, is at an end. I cannot answer for others. I cannot say that it will not be revived again. Under the present administra tion I believe it will not. Mr. CALCRAPT approved of the efficiency which this arrangement had given to the army: The arrangement, instead of being prejudicial, was, he thought, of the greatest benefit to the country ; and though he (Mr. Caleraft)Vas as anxious for economy as any Hon. Member could be,lyet be was often almost put out of humour with it; by the per verse taste of his Hen. Friend (Mr. Hume), who wished to beggar the service he wanted to reform. After a few words from Mr. BAILING and Sir H. HARDING, Mr. Hume's motion was agreed to, as well as another,\to show the number of commissions which had become vacant since January, 1827, and the manner in which they had been filled up. LIFE ANNUITY ACT. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER, the House went into a Committee upon the Life Annuity Act, when the Right Hon. Gentleman moved an .instruc tion for leave to bring in a bill to give effeot to the recom mendation of the Finance Committee, by regulating i n future the operation of the Annuities. Lord ALTHORP approved of the motion, and remarked. that it had been shown by Mr. Finlayson, the actuary, that by the present plan the public had lost 95,0001. within the last three months, and were now losing 8,000/. a week.— He also stated, that after be had made the calculations, the actuary apprized both Lord Bexley and Lord Gode rich of the prejudicial tendency of the present arrangement. In the very first year of the working of it, there were 540 • annuities, making 58,0001. a•year, 228 of which were un expired, making now 23,0001. a-year unexpired also, and that those who had purchased these annuities had already received back the whole of their advances, with the addi tion of 10,000/.3 per cent. per annum, and what re mained to be paid to them would be every shilling of it clear gain. He believed to the amount of 610,000/. a year had been sold in this prejudicial manner for the public. Mr. Finlayson had stated, that so far back as 1819, he had informed Lord Bexley of this inevitable con sequence. It was much to be regretted that no attempt had been made before this time to save the public from the consequences of so ruinous a bargain. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed his belief that the loss would not be found anything like what had been stated. The original plan had been founded in 1806 npon the Northampton Tables, and with reference to the price of the funds being 80. Whenever the price of the funds exceeded 80, the public were pro tanto gainers. The following resolution was then put : • " Resolved—That it is expedient that a Bill be intro duced to repeal so much of the general Acts as empower the Commissioners of the National Debt to grant life annui - ties." After a few words from Mr. CALCRATT and Mr. Hume, the resolution was agreed to. The House then resumed, the resolution was reported, and, on the motion of Mr. V. FITZGERALD, leave was given to bring in a Bill for that purpose. VESTRY BILL (IRELAND). . . Mr. HUME gave notice, that on to-morrow (this day) he would present a petition from the Catholics of Ireland against the Vestry Bill. On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAIZAM, an account WAS ordered of the number of wine and spirit licences issued in England and Wales in the years 1810, 1819, 1820, and 1527. The House then adjourned at ten minutes past seven o'clock. Falkirk is generally supposed to have been the site of one of those military stations on the Roman Wall, known by the nillrle of the Forts of Agricola—hence a number of the relics of the Roman people have been found from time to time in that place and the neighbour hood. About 30 years ago there were discovered at Park house, about a quarter of a mile to the north-west of Fal kirk, two urns containing human bones, which bore evi dent marks of having been subjected to the action of fire; these must have been Roman, for no other people ever possessed this country with whom incremation was a cus tomary practice. About ten or twelve years ago a number of fragment's of earthenware were dug up in a garden in the Pleasance of Falkirk, and among them one vessel, round the margin of which the word " Nocturna" was legible ; they were generally unglazed, of a white or brown colour, and some ornamented with raised figures on the outer sur face. A piece of ornamental brass that apparently had been used as the top of a flag-staff, was also discovered near Camelon, by workmen employed in digging the founda tions of a distillery there last summer.— Caledonian Mercury. MR. WHITMORE'S NEW SALMON FISHERY BILL. (FROM A CORRESPONDINT.) This Bill appears to be far less objectionable dim its immediate predecessor. The clause in the former: sill, permitting the use of stake nets, for which sutli a struggle was made, is now abandoned, se, that the prohibitions of the existing law will continue in fall operation against these mischievous engines, de toleration and increase of which would not one annihilate the grown fish, but prove infinitely more, destructive to the fry than all the other injuries to. which they are exposed. The present Bill, however, contains one clause which will assuredly encounter powerful, and I trust successful, opposition. It appoints that the fence months or close time shall be the same in every fishing station in Great Britain and Ireland, and shall commence on the 16th Sept. and terminate on the 14th Fehi in each year. This strange regulation is founded on the erroneous assumption that precisely the same period will slit for fishing every river in the United Kingdom. There cannot possibly be a grosser de Vision. —ln Ireland it has been satisfactorily promeol that there is the greatest variance in this re spect, the fishing season actually commencing in some rivers at the very time that it closes in others; and in Scotland several rivers are fished to the greatest advantage in the months of November, December, January, and February ; of these we may instance the NeSs, the Couon, the Thurso, the Shinn, and the Lewes. Other rivers again are much later; and in short, so far from being uniform, the fishing periods of these rivers exhibit the most re markable disagreement. Now, as salmon are clean in each river only during its own proper and pecu liar season, the consequence of assigning the same fence months, or close time, to every river without exception, would be to render the taking of clean fish illegal, and to insure the destruction of foul fish. This result, though not contemplated by Whitmore, would soon become apparent in the Lea don market. If any general close time were fixed, the period. between the 16th of August and the 16th of January. would be the least inconvenient for the whole ern.. pire. But salmon will not obey the Legislature, and , it is vain to attempt to regulate what cannot be con trouled. The safest course would be to appoint, under a Parliamentary commission, certain indivi duals of science and experience, to examine the dif ferent ricers, and to report on them respectively. This would produce a body of valuable information, on which the Legislature might found a new law, completely adapted to the exigencies of the subject. It would be a great improvement if salmon were declared the private property of the owners of fishe ries; and poachers should be punished as thieves.— At all events, the penalties should be greatly in creased; and the appointment of Water Bailiffs to enforce the provisions of the statute, (instead of being left discretionary), should be made imperative on the proprietors. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS. EXPENCE OF PRINTING. Returns to an Order of the Home of Commons, dated the 6th of March, 182 S, for an Account of the Expence of Printing the Appendix to the Votes of the House of Commons, tor • the years 1825, 1626, and 1827: Session 1825.—The number• of Petitions printed in the Appendix was 1,111, making 790 pages; the Charge for Print ing amounted to £1,277 7 0 Session 1826.—The number of Petitions printed in the Appendix was 862, making 602 pages ; the Charge for Printing amounted to £965 12 3 Session 1827.—The number of Petitions printed in the Appendix was 1,959, making 1,420 pages; the Charge for Printing amounted to £2,262 7 6 J. II NICHOLS. Parliament-street, March 8, 1828. Account of the Expence of preparing the Appendix to the Votes for the Printer in the years 1825, 1626, and 1827 : In Session 1825—The Charge for Copying for the Press, examining the Copy and the Proofs, amounted to £2l4 12 10 In Session 1826—The Charge for Copying for the Press, examining the Copy and the Proofs, amounted to £l9o 16 2 In session 1827—The Charge for Copying for the Press, examining the Copy and the Proofs, amounted to £427 t 1 J. H. LEY. An Account of the Expence of Printing the following Papers : On the subject of the Vagrant Laws, printed May, 1824 The Nanias of Special Juries—March, £1.97 5 3 1824 The Names of certain Fishing Vessels— May, 1824 Hindoo Widows burning—June, 1824 Hindoo Infanticide—June, 1824 Commitments in Ireland, 1823, 1824 Report of Education in . Ireland—Nov. 28, 1826 4,016 16 0 Slave Population—May 9, 1526 1,590 17 0 Papers relating to the Slave Trade, 1825 (15 Papers) 1,864 3 6 Appendix to the Chancery Clinmission— W l st 8263,739 2 6 Indies—April, 18, 1826 West 672 2 0 Commitment for ContemptofCourt--1526 262 15 6 Inquiry of Comtnissioners into Public Cha rities—(l6 Reports, 1819-1827) 30,381 17 3 Inquiry of Commissioners into the Re venue of Ireland—(l4 Reports, 1822- 1826) 12,233 12 9 Bills of. Costs paid by the Crown—April, 1827 4B 4 0 Information before Exchequer from Cus toms and Excise—Feb., 1827 35 Is 0 Report of Commissioners of Legal Inquiry - on Trinidad—June 29, 1827 :- 962 6 3 The Report £l6O 0 0 The Appendix BO2 6 3 Slaves on the Bel Ombre Estate in Mauri tius—May, 1827 124 'l4 , 0 253 15 9 220 1$ 6 114 $ 9 266 2 6 32 0 3 1 3 LUKE HANSARD AND SONS. House of Commons Printing Office, Bth March,lB2B. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC IN COME AND EXPENDITURE. The Select Onumittee appointed to inquire into the state of the Public incetne and Expenditure of the United Kingdom, and to consider and report to the House what • further regulations and checks it may be proper, in their opinion, to adopt, fur establishing an effectual control upon all charges incurred in the receipt, custody, and ap plication of the public money, and what further measures can be adopted for reducing any part of the public expen diture without detriment to the public service, have pro ceeded to an examination of the matters referred to them, and agreed to the following Report The Committee having, in the course of their inquiries, ltt House s to the expediency of discovered that the cond itions un der which the Commis sioners of the Sinking Fund are required , by the Ac t fo r enabling the Commissi oners for the reduction of the National , are extremely disadvantage ous to the feelt ieo he their duty to call the im mediateD Debt to life-annuities, of the repeal ing this Act. March 10. *StOle&eM VtitX bank 'rock 2 per tent. 3 per Cent. C 154'. per Cent. Ditto Red._ per Cent. Ditto, I Bank L. An India Stock. Ditto Bonds PRICES or Atntriart Be trasilian Bc ki Ito os Ayi V.oiornbean Dino, 1814. nanioh, 3 p i Ortek Bond pito, :825 faentunala Moxican Bo Do. 1812.5 ..... , • •PRICZ Brazilian M Columbian Hibernian 3 Provincial PRICE lima Stoll Consols, 3 p Gni% Stock, D.',tto, New, 4 per Cent. Gov, Deb. 3 Royal Cana: Grand Cana City Deb, 4 Ballast OM FINANCE COMMITTEE. Yesterday the Finance Committee made six orders for army production ro:lucetniiiitu onor. They' relatedfedocumhentac t) connected the a d principallyl es o lowa l n v e ith the f 11,2111. for the Commander-in-Chief—the large staff al• lowances, both in this country and in Ireland—the sums paid in the civil branches of the army, the cavalry expen diture, the barrack disbursements ; and also accounts showing, in all its details, the expence of the Preventive Service, incurred for the military who are in barracks in different parts of the coast; .the number of men employed in each, a return of their duties, &c. These accounts were ordered to be made out with the greatest despatch, and were sent to the Treasury- by the Chairman, Sir Henry Parnell, at five o'clo c k yesterday evening. Lord ELLENBOROUGH entertained the Ca binet Ministers to dinner yesterday, at his residence in C o nnaught-place. This was the first dinner given to hi, 021 1 eagtte') by 1 1 6 Lordship, since his appoiataltat to office. glool Con it 15 have 11211 this 110 3 bi THUF Nothit of the do of war, urging th still rem of her only as into a a the 6th her prii lations o posed to tingencu fore, b demonst always frontiers the Et's! absence withhoh The I dc Fern, Address with his The mi system deploral Mansi rgiecon MAJESI Depute It can find if I appoint of the We begins ativocir appeal enlight " At your M by the more a( culture. unnects eommel nod di We Gazed letters take p Funds ST. previed Auklei tulle i Consta Wares,