The Sun. — London, England, 1828-04-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 1101.75 E OF LORDS, APRIL 25. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his. seat on the Wooleack at twenty minutes after five o'clock. L.urd LAUDERDALE presented a petition from the Proprietors of a Private Mad-house against the County Lunatics' Asylum Bill. A similar petition was presented by the Earl of ELDON from the proprietors of a Mad-house in Manchester. The Noble Earl presented a petition from the parish of St. Nicholas, Surrey, against further concessions to the Ca tholics. The petitions were laid on the table. A Message was brought from the Commons by Sir ALEX • ANDLR. GRANT and others, communicating that th e Com mons had given permission to David Barclay, Esq. (one of their members) to be examined before their Lordships on the second reading of the Penryn Disfranchisement Bill. Sir A. GRANT and others brought lip the Dover Har bour Bill. Sir T. ActLANn and others brought the Honiton Road Bill. Mr, LITTLETON and others brought isp the Surrey Coal Meters Bill. Mr. Crafer, from the Treasury, presented a return of the increase and diminution of salaries in the public offices during the last Year. Lord TORRINGTON presented a petition from a parish in Kent, against any further concessions to the Catholics. Similar petitions were presented from Cleveland, and another place in Yorkshire, by the Archbishop of YoeK. The Bishop of DURHAM presented a similar petition from the Archdeacon and Clergy of the Diocese of Oxford. The Earl of RADNOR presented petitions from the Ro man Catholics of Reading and of Whitebaven, playing that they might be relieved from civil disabilities on account of their religious opinions. The Bishop of WINCHESTER presented a petition from Cobham, in Surrey, itgainst further concessions to the Roman Catholics: and also a petition from the same place, praying for the abolition of slavery. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from Manchester, praying that the Bill for transferring the franchise front Penryn to Manchester might not pass into a law in its present form. Lord CARNARVON moved, that witnesses to be e:,-a ,,reined on the second reading of the Penryn Bill should be directed To produce certain letters. Lord ELDON conceived that the House ought to he very• cautious how it made such a direction; he thought the House could go no further in this respect than a Court of Law. Earl GREY considered it quite competent to direct the letters to be pralveed• When the witnes,es wer e 41)out to he examined, it might then become, a question whether the letters ought to be read or not. SUBJECTS FOR DISSECTION. _ . The Marquis of LANSDOWNE held in his hand a great many retitiqns from different parts of the country, signed by the most respectable members of the medical profession, praying for the removal of the impediments that now ex isted in the way of dissection, and which he thought de serving the attention of the Hense. One petition was from the Physicians, Surgeons, and Pupils of the Medical School in Webb-street, London ; another from the Medical Society, Edinburgh, incorporated by Royal Chatter ; another from the Physicians and Surgeons qf Wakefield, another from Manchester; and another from Bradford, Yorkshire. Several other petitions were presented. Lord DARNLEY postponed his motion regarding fru ldsul to Thursday next. TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS. On the motion for the order of the day upon the Test and Corporation Acts Repeal Bill, The Earl of ELDON rose, and said that having an alte tation to propose in the preamble of the second clause, he should suave that the following words be left out :—" And whereas the Protestant Episcopal Church of England and Ireland, and the doctrine, discipline, and government thereof, and the Protestant Presbyterian Church of Scot land, and the doctrine, discipline, and government thereof, are by tlw laws of this realm severally established perma nently and inviolably." His reason for wishing those words to be left out was, because he thought, and he again teepeated that opinion, that that clause had been most insi diously introdumd,—not by those who harl introduced it into the present Bill,—but had been most insidiously in troduced into those Bills and those measures from which it had been most incautiously borrowed and introduced in this Bill. It was not, however, his intention to divide the House upon his motion, his object in moving it being merely to have it entered upon the journals of this House that he made such motion. Earl GREY hoped that the assurance of the Noble awl I :Learned Earl that he would merely move his amendment pro fin-rma would be better observed than a similar assu rance made by the same Noble Earl last night. He then assured their Lordships that he bad no intention of dividing the house upon an amendment proposed by him, his only object being to have it entered upon the Journals; upon the faith of which assurance several Noble Lords went away. Nevertheless, the Noble and Learned Earl thought proper afterwards to divide the House upon his motion, behind the backs of those Noble Lords whose reliance up-eu the faith of his assurance had induced them to leave the Rouse. He (Earl Grey) did not think it necessary to detain their Lordships at present with the reasons fur which he objected to the proposition • of the Noble and Learned Lord ; because, according to the forms of their Lordships' House, the Noble and Learned Lord was pre eluded from moving such a proposition, inasmuch as that question had already been disposed of—it had been settled by the decision of last night. In point of order, it was not competent for the Noble and Learned Earl to make this proposition now ; for their Lordships had already passed the preamble of the Bill.--(" No, no," from some Noble Lords.) He repeated that their Lordships had already passed the preamble of the Bill, and if Noble Lords would do him the favour to listen to him, 7ie would convince them that what he said was correct. The Noble and Learned Earl, their Lordships would recollect, had moved the introduction of certain words, though what the of these words could he, he (Earl Gray) was unable to discover, into the preamble of the Bill. That proposition was negatived. Their Lordships then proceeded beyond the preamble, and the Noble and Learned Earl moved the in troduction of the words " that I am a Protestant" into the declaration. Now that motion had been made, and was under discussion, when it was agreed by the House, in order to give some Noble Lords an opportunity of more maturely considering its effects, to adjourn the further dis cussion of it until tosoilay. Therefore, he repeated, that in point of order, according to the forms and rules of this House, it was impossible for the Noble and Learned Earl to make his present proposition in this stage of the Bill. But it would be competent for the Noble and I earned Lord at a future period, when the clause came to be . put, to ob ject to it altogether; or he might propose any amendment be pleased upon the third reading of the Bill. The Earl of ELDON should feel himself most highly culpable indeed if he had pursued the course ascribed to him by the Noble Earl ; but in point of fact the Noble Earl was altogether mistaken. He would ask those Noble Lords who bad attended to the procee lings last night, if the House had even come to that part of t h e Bill w hi c h he now proposed to omit ? On the contrary, he asserted that the further consideration of the subject was post poned before ha moved his intended amendment, that the words, " I am a Protestant," should be introduced into the Bill. The Noble Earl was also mistaken when he stated that he (Lord Eldon) said it was only his intention to move his amendmeitpro forma. Me had said no such thing, and if he had been understood to say so, he was ex. tretaely sorry for having been so misconceived. But be could assure the Noble Earl that there was no man who heard him more anxious to uphold and observe the forms and rules of this House Atari he was ; he would rather that the whole of this wretched paltry Bill, ranch as he objected to it, should pass, without the slightest amendment, than that he should be in any manner guilty of an infringement ~f them. However, after what the Noble I?.arl had stated, he was now determined not to press his amendment. Earl GREY was so r ry t h e N o ble and Learned Earl should think he treated him with any want of candour ; but he was not at all sensible of having done so. What the Noble and Learned Earl had meant by what he said last night, he (Earl Grey) was unable to sae; hut, judging from what he said, and front the impression which it con veyed, not only to his mind but to the minds of other Noble Lords near hint, lie certainly understood him to 111C311 what he (Earl „ Grey) h a d a l rea d y state d. B ut if th e Noble and Learned Earl disclaimed any such intention, he (Earl Grey) was of course bound to believe that he had misconceived what he had said. The N o bl e and L ea rned Earl now offered to withdraw his proposition iu compli ment to him (Earl Grey) ; but he wanted nothing front the Noble and Learned Earl out c: compliment. He re prated, that the proposition couy tun. now be brought forward. The Earl of ELDON had only to say,. upon hi s h onour, he never did move that amendment. [Earl Grey. ` Th eo it is upon the minutes."] He knew it was so placed upon the minutes, because the Noble Earl had read it to him ; but he would assert that whoever bad so placed it upon the minutes, had done so without being warranted by the fact. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that as far as he re collected, the course of proceeding last night had been this—the Noble and Learned Lord moved au amendment, which was negatived : he afterwards stated, that he meant to move another amendment, introducing the words " I am a Protestant" into the declaration, and proceeded to state the grounds on which he meant to move that amend ment. Some Noble Lords then proposed that the subject should stand over till to-night, in order to give them an opportunity of considering it; upon which it was moved that the question be adjourned to this evening ; but he did not think, to the best of his memory, that his Noble and Learned Friend had moved his amendment.— (Hear ) hear.) Lord MOLL AND—There must have been a motion before the House, my Lords, last night, when the discus sion took place, for the Noble and Learned Lord, who knows the orders of the House so well, would hardly ad dress your Lordships, without there had been a motion before you. It is idle to appeal to your recollection, when you have written documents. At the opening of the pi e_ sent Session, my Lords, we heard something said about the convention of the Turks ; that there was no necessity for them signing a written treaty, inasmuch as their recol lection was so good, that nothing was wanting to make them complete their engagements. But we, my Lords, are merely Christians, we have not memories so excellent, we are not so accurate—(a laugh)—thereftme, we are obliged, in conformity to the forms of the House, to have the proceedings of your Lordships written down and kept on the Journals. There was a discussion last night, my Lords, on the amendment proposed by the Noble and Learned Lord. The motion was made. It must have been made. What was said on the occ.ision was a proof of it. Those two speeches made by the Noble and Learned Lord himself proved the fact. I did not rise, my Lord, to offer any reason why the amendment should not be adopted by your Lordships, as the question has been already disposed of. lam a plain man, and no law yer ; I have—s. - nor utterance, nor the power of speech, To stir men's blood : I only speak right ou ; I tell you that which you yourselves do know. ---- But were I Brutus, And Brutus, Antony then, my Lords, we should hear what a lamentably grie vous thing it was to destroy the rules and the precedents of the House.—(Laughter and cheers.) What horror would it occasion ! Should such a course be pursued as that pt•at!tised by the Noble and Learned Lord on the pre sent occasion, it would be in the power of any one man to prevent any Bill from passing through the House. And when your Lordships had decided on a clause, your time might he wasted with proposing one amendment after ano ther, in different stages of the Bill. But the Noble and Learned Lord must abide by the written document ; and fortunately for himself, and fortunately for the House, he could not bring the question again forward, as it was clearly against all rule, all order, and all precedent.— (Hear.) The Earl of ELDON—After what bad fallen from the Noble Baron, respecting the attachment he was supposed to feel towards the rules and orders of the House, felt bound to declare, that he did not entertain that devoted attach ment to all the mules and usages of that House. But that Noble Lord, like the greater number of politicians, thought it was impossible for a diwyer to be possessed of the least political knowledge, while he (Lord E.) never yet knew a great politician who did not at the same time consider him self an excellent lawyer. He would accordingly compli ment the Noble Lord, not merely upon being a student, but upon being a great judge of law. He would feel it nec.2ssaty, in all probability, to say not a little, but a great deal, upon the third reading of the Bill ; and if no per son in the House had any motion to make immediately, he would at once proceed to move upon the subject of the declaration. • The Duke of WELLINGTON suggested that it would be perhaps as well that the Order of the Day were read, before their Lordships proceeded farther. The Order of the Day for the farther censideration of the Report upon the Tot and Corporation Acts Repeal Bill was then read. After an observation from Lord HOLLAND that was not audible below the bar, the The Earl of ELDON rose, and said, that though the Nob7e Lord and himself were never Rely to agree upon the Bill now unforomately under consideration, they were never likely to disagree from any want of temper on either side. He then said lie would move that the word " swear" be substituted for " declare," in' the dsclaration. Earl GREY thought that the discussion ought to be re.. sullied where it had been broken off on the preceding night. He was very much surprised at the doubt expressed by the Noble and Learned Lord upon the Woolsack, when they had the writte❑ record in the minutes, that the motion had been made and placed under discussion. lie had in the first in stance stated, that this was a case from recollection only ; hut he had since found by the record he was correct; at least, he firmly believed he was so; for be could not bring himself to think that the record was t . ,tlse; though he cer tainly would not hesitate to express his wish that their Lordship? debates should be carried on with less laxity for the future. The Earl of ELDON did not admit the fact; and still dclared most solemnly he had not made the motion. That which he was now about to introduce, he begged to be understood, related only to the Corporation Act. It had not the least relation to the Test Act. He protested most solemnly that it was net his wish to make any alteration in the Bill for the purpose in any way of affecting the claims of the Roman Catholics. What he meant was, that the Bill, which was one for the ease of . Protestant Dissenters, should pass without in the slightest degree promoting or retarding the Catholic Question. If he thought his motion would retard that question, he would not make it; and if, on the contrary, he thought that the Bill, as it might at any time stand, would promote the views of the Roman Catholics, he would consider it his duty to oppose so much of it as he considered might have the effect of forwarding these views. His anxiety was, that the measure should he passed without affecting the Roman Catholics in one way or other. He was aware that it was believed by some Noble Lords on the other side, that he felt otherwise; awl he accordingly considered himself imperatively called en to make this solemn pro testation, .because he had always opposed the claims of the Roman Catholics, and would ever continue to do so, un less he should hear some argument sufficiently powerful to convince him of their Justice. He would make the motion he proposed to make, beeause he considered that if the word Protestant were not embodied in the declaration, the Bill would most materially promote the claims of the Roman Catholics. He repeated, this declaration had no thing to do with the judgment on any subsequent Bill, or with the Test Act. He wished to be understood as direct ing his motion to the Corporation Act alone, which, after disposing in a very summary way respecting the qualifica• tions of individuals holding office, when it was passed, goes on to state the law of the country with respect to those who may be called to office for the future, and recites that no man can be Mayor, or Alderman, or Willy, without hav ing taken the Sacramental Test twelve months before; but thet e is not a single word about his taking it when he has once been in office. The Test Act proceeds in another way, and declares that persons cannot hold certain offices of trust without having taken the Sacramental Test within three months, or perhaps six months, from the time of their entering on their office. The Corporation Act required on e to take the oaths in the Act, but not those in any subse quent Act ; nor does it render obligatory the declaration against transubstantiation. And Le would ask, what Act of Parliament was it that did render it necessary for cor porate officers to make this declaration ? A man <night be Mayor, and, nevertheless, not he a Justice of Peace, and so not be obliged to make the declaration. There were two ways of making corporate officers Justices of the Peace, the charter of the corporation, or by the act of the Crown. There were not doubts wanting in books even as to whether Justices of Peace were obliged to take this declaration, but he was clearly of opinion that they were. But, at all events the declaration in this Bill was, as far as Corpor a ti ons were concerne d, ev id ent l y wort h nothing at all. He should be happy to hear the opinion of his Noble and Learned Friend upon the woolsack, and trusted it would coincide with his own. The LORD CHANCELLOR, after the call made upon him by his Noble and L earne d F r i en d , f e l t b oun d to state the opinion he entertained upon the subject, and he rejoiced exceedingly that their Lordships had acceded to the propo sition made by the Noble Duke at the head of the Govern ment, of referring the further consideration of the question until that <tight ; for he confessed that he did entertain doubts from what had Leen brought forward by his Noble and Learned Friend ; but an interval devoted to reflection had since satisfied him that there was nothing of solidity in the argument of his Noble and Le arne d Fri end. H e could not bring hims elf to think that there was any thing in the omission of the words " I am a Protestant," that could affect the Catholic Question. Could he fancy fur a moment that there watt, he would be one of th e l ast per sons in the world to assist in carrying through that Inca sure ; but, satisfied that there was not, he would oppose the <notion of his Noble and Learned Friend. :file ques tion fur consideration was simply this, whether if they did not insert the words " I 402 a Protestant" Roman Catholics would not enjoy the power of becoming governing Mem bers of Corporations. Now, how stood the law ? A go verning Me inlaer was at present obliged to take the sa cramental test within a certain period, and to take the oath of supremacy upon his election. The queetem then to be asked was, if the oath of supremacy was not obligatory upon Roman Catholics—and, as far as he could learn, and he made most extensive inquires, and from those well qualified to give an opinion on :he subject—the conviction established in his mind was, bat the Roman Catholics did not consider this oath binding. If so, then so long as it was necessary to take that oath, Ms long must it be a bar to the Roman Catholic acting is a governing member of a Corporation. But not to shp there merely, he would go on and say, that he differed En tirely front his Noble and Learned Friend ; and when be did so in the presence of their Lordships, he assured. tlum it was with the greatest humility and deference to his last knowledge, talents, and attainments ; but whatever might he the opinion he entertained of the authority of an duli vidual, he felt that he was bound, by the importance of the case, to exercise his own understanding, and he earn estly hoped, that upon that great principle he would ae considered excusable by their Lordships in the course he esteemed it his duty to pursue.—(flear, hear.) — The Noble and Learned Lord asks, by what statute would Roman Catholics lie prevented from becoming Members, or, as he had rather put it, governing members of Corpora tions ? He would say, in answer, that a governing mem ber is bound by the operation of the Test Act ; and he would pledge himself that any person who looked a second time at that Act Would feel that the necessity of making the declaration against transubstantiation was imposed, in the strongest terms, upon all persons holding such offiers. Ile had been duly impressed with the necessity of caution, from what had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend, and he had accordingly written down the question—" It governing officers of a Corporatiion be not in the . Magi stracy, do they make the declaration against transubstan tiation ?" He was anxious to ascertain what was the practice, and he, in consequence, sent this question SO written down to the Recorder of London—who stated, in reply, that the custom uniformly was, that all classes of governing officers, Aldermen, Common Councilmen, &e., should make this declaration. He referred them to the Act of Parliament—he referred to the interpretation of the law as evidenced in the practiers of the first Corporation of England ; and upon these grounds he felt justified in stating that there was a security. Ile conjured their Lordships, therefore, not to support a motion that could do no good, but was calculated only to produce irrita tion, and to promote mischief. When he looked at the votes of the Commons, and saw they contained no petitions against the measure, and at the Universi ties, which were ever the entire defenders of the Church, and among whom the Church patronage was distributed, and saw that neither University petitioned against the Bill—when he witnessed the manner in which the Reve rend Bench supported the measure, with an eloquence and talent rarely surpassed, he expected, their Lordships would send out the Bill to the world in a kind spirit of concilia tion ; and, with these hopes, he was distressed beyond measure at the course taken by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon) on the question, He knew the ta lents of his Noble and Learned Friend, and his zeal for the interest of the Church, lint he regretted sincerely to see these talents and zeal so mischievously employed on a sub ject so important to the peace and welfare of the country.— (Cheering.) The Bishop of DURHAM did not consider the Oath of Supremacy a sufficient barrier against the admission of Ca tholics into Corporations; nor could he understand what objection there could be to introduce the word Protestant into the declaration. He should acknowledge that he saw no reason for the repeal of those Acts in the petitions pre sented from Dissenters to that House, as all of those peti tions, except two, expressed detestation of the Established Chnrch.—(" No, no.")—He thought the Test . Acts might be given up, and an exemption made in favour of the Pro testant Dissenters and the Church of Scotland. The Earl of CARLISLE denied that the petitions pre sonted from the Dissenters contained sentiments hostile to the Church Establishment, The Earl of GUILFORD entertained every respect for the high authority of the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, but could not bring himself to acquiesce in his opinions.—For the continuance of the Sacramental Test, he could vote conscientiously on two grounds—political and religious; his political reason was, that against danger to the State there was no security, but in the conformity of the official per sons connected with the Church. Religiously speaking, he would willingly abandon the Sacramental Test, if any other adequate Test could be found ; but when he asked himself whether he should support a Test, the taking of which, if criminal at all, was only criminal in him that falsely took it; or whether he would consent to abolish that Test, and by doing so allow the privileges of the Church to be trampled on, he must answer, let the Church and her privileges stand. The Earl of RODEN a ought that in the Bill before the llouse, the Christian principle was overlooked, and the only caution exhibited was for protecting the temporal privi leges of the church. He was sorry their Lordships did not adopt the words proposed by a Noble Earl (Winchel sea) to he introduced into the declaration, namely, those acknowledging the divinity of Jesus Christ. The phrase, • " on the true faith of a Christian," was not a sufficient substitute, as it was a question with many which was the true Christian faith. He hoped the Bill as it now stood, would not meet the approbation of the Christian public. lie was sure the Dissenters themselves would see in it a compromise of Christian boldness,and Protestant principle. He regretted sincerely to see that the amendment, acknow_ ledging the divinity of Jesus Christ, was not supported by the Reverend successors of Ridley and Latimer and Cran mer. As to the argument that the passing of the Bill would tend to preserve the religious peace of the country, he thought it would have quite the contrary effect, but even though it should secure the peace of the country, he should think the advantage dearly bought by the sacrifice. The Bishop of LINCOLN—The Noble Lord (Roden) had said, orintended to say, that the Reverend Bench, in assenting to the declaration, had shewn greater regard to temporal benefits, than for the spiritual welfare of ths Church. But what was the question before the House? The Bill for the repeal of two Acts of Parliament, which excluded the Dissenters fronts offices in the State. Now, what connection was there between the object of the Bill and the spiritualities of the Church ?—(Loud cheering.) The assertion of the Noble Earl could only have arisen from confounding the two characters of the Church, namely the political and spiritual. But in its spi ritual character, the Church could not be affected by any Act of the Legislature ; it may be separated from the State; its benefices may be transferred to the Clergy of another persuasion. The Church, in its spiritual character, w ou ld still continue to exist as a religious community—would sur vive as the primitive Church of Christianity did in its de cent forms, in its simple rites, and in the spiritual purity and sublimity of its doctrines.—(Loud cheering from all sides.) The Bishop of CHESTER—The Noble Esti Roden considered these Acts a religious security. He (the Bishop of Chester) would contend that they were a political secu rity, and had nothing whatever to do in maintaining the re ligious part of the Church. It was very uncharitable in the Noble Earl, who was remarkable for his zeal in defence of the Church, to intimate that he and his Reverend Bro thers were induced to neglect the spiritual welfare of the Church by a sordid regard for its temporalities—(Cheers.) The Earl of RODEN explained. Lord REDESDALE considered the insertion of the word " Protestant" necessary and important; and should therefore vote for the amendment of his Noble and Learned Friend. The Earl of ELDON was sure, when he reminded their Lordships of the manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had expressed his concern at the course which he (Lord Eldon) was pursuing, their Lord ships would give him a patient hearing in answer to that observation of the Noble and Learned Lord ; and first, he hoped, that after the Noble and Learned Lord had passed through as many years in the service of the State as he (Lord Eldon) had done, he would hear it imputed to him that he was employing his abilities in forwarding a mea sure mischievous to the interests of the country. He (Lord Eldon) had served his country long and zealously. and he declared to God that he believed, in all his public life, he could not have done any thing so mischievous a' forwarding the present measure. With that feeling he should divide on his amendment, and even though he went alone, would go below the bar with a consciousness that he never meant any mischief to the country; and he threw back the imputation on the Noble and Learned Lord with all the scorn natural to a man who felt himself injured by the base suspicions of a such a charge. If their Lord ships thought it necessary to keep Catholics out of Corporations they would vote, for his (Lord Eldon's) amendment—that amendment of his he founded on his own notion of the laws of this country ; and, with all proper respect fire the high authority of his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack (of whose friendship, he hoped, nothing that could occur in that House would prevent his being deprived) he would stake his legal reputation on the correctness of the assertion, that no Catholic would be excluded from Corporations if their Lordships passed the present Bill. He was sure his Noble and Learned Friend would not have pronounced his (Lord Eldon's) conduct mischievous, if he had not thought his conduct deserved that imputation. If, however, oPP"7 sition to the proposed Bill were mischievous, he (Lord E.) had the satisfaction to know, that his Noble and Learned Friend must have agreed with him in the necessity of that mischievous opposition to it, when it was the •intention of his Noble and Learned Friend, as a member of the present Government, to uphold the Test Acts,—(Lasghtef.) hoped, therefore, that his Noble Friend would not impute to him other motives for holding - his present opinion than those of honourable ones, which must have induced his Noble and Learned Friend to entertain the very same opinions only a fortnight ago.—(Laughter, and cheer ing.) But he wished net to be understood as re• proaching any persons for having changed their opi nions since, as he would be a most unkind person indeed if he could utter any reproaches on the subject, when he remembered the persons to whom they might lie applied. He would declare again, before God, that he looked on this as a most important revolu tionary change. (A laugh from the Opposition side.) Noble Lords behind him might laugh ; but, if it gave them pleasure to hear him say that this was a most mis chievous revolutionary measure (another laugh), he would contribute to their merriment by saying it again. It was mischievous, because it tended to destroy the unity of the Church and State, which formed the Constitution of the country. The proposed Bill would alter that Constitution ; it was,in fact,one of those great leading revolutionary schemes which, under the name of liberality, and the march of in tellect, were undermining the best institutions of the coun try. If tha Clergy, who were more immediately inte rested in the question, would assent to this measure, after what they had read in the petitions on the table, in their own hands be the consequences. But he was sorry to see the trifling support given to the Church by the Clergy on this important occasion. It had been said that the Universities were not opposed to this measure; on the contrary, his table groaned every morning with a load of complaints against it, contained in letters coming from all directions. Finally, be would say to their Lordships what he had said to one, who was now unfortunately for die country, dead and gone—he meant the late Duke of York—namely, " God forbid he (Lord Eldon), who had served the Crown so long, should be the man to say, that the King was not bound by his oath, and compelled by the Legislature, to protect the rights and privileges of the Church." The LORD CHANCELLOR did not say his Noble and Learned Friend's intention was mischievous ; what he said was, that his conduct was calculated to be mis chievous. The Duke of NEWCASTLE could not be satisfied without a declaration in form of Protestantism, and called upon the Right Reverend Bench to insist upon this neces sary amendment. The Bishop of LINCOLN read a clause of the Bill, ac knowledging that the discipline, doctrine, and worship of the Church of England, were inviolable parts of the law of the country, in order to show that the accusation of supineness against his Right Reverend Brethren and him self was unfounded. It was remarkable that the only person in that House who had moved that this clause be expunged, teas the Noble and Learned Earl himself. The Earl of ELDON explained. The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said, that on questions of the nature of that then under the consideration of the House, and where, as happened to be the case ou the pre sent occasion, there existed a strong moral feeling, there might be, perhaps, as much wisdom in yielding to that impulse as in being governed by the stricter rules of rea soning. He voted fur a repeal of the Test Act, because he thought it gave no security to the Church, nor did he conceive it likely to afford any. With reference to the in troduction of the words, " and lam a Protestant," there were doubtless many well-meaning, but not well-informed persons, in the community, who might think that the omission of these words might open a door by which Ca tholics would gain access to political power. Certainly he did not enter into those views : he considered tkat the Oath of Supremacy would always afford a sufficient means of excluding the Catholics. The House then divided, when there appeared : For the Amendment, 55 Against it, ll7 Majority, —62 On our re-admission the Earl of WINCHELSEA. wa , speaking of another amendment, which it would appear lie had been proposing to the House. He declared that be could not assent to the doctrine, that it was of no impor tance what were the religious sentiments of those posses , - ing political power and filling offices of importance. The Yoble Lord concluded by calling on the House to support his amendment. Lord HOLLAND rose to order, and, as we understoc, , l, suggested that no amendment had been regularly moved. The Earl of WINCHELSEA having repaired the omis sion, the question was put, namely, that after the word that the followiag be inserted—" I believe in the Canoni cal books of the Ohl and New Testament, as set forth by authority, to be the revealed Word of God." The Bishop of CHESTER observed, that no doubt, in a Christian country it was necessary that offices of trust and power should be filled by none but Christians; the formula, however, suggested previously, was quite suf ficient—the person making the declaration affirming that he wade it on the true faith of a Christian, was all that any legislature or government bad a right to expect from him. The Bishop of LLANDAFF only objected to such a test as that of the Noble Lord, because it was unnecessary. The Earl of WINCHELSEA would persist in pressing his amendment, even if it were his lot to divide alone. The Earl of ELDON ,aid, if the word " Protestant" had been inserted i❑ the Bill, the Noble Lord's amendment would certainly have been unnecessary. The House having decided more than once. that the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance were not sufficient guarantee to admit the Ca tholics to power, it had also decided that the mere decla ration, " I am a Christian," was not sufficient. The Bishop of LLANDAFF explained. The Earl of ELDON—If the House was of opinion that the Oath of Supremacy was sufficient for the Catho lic, then the mode now adopted might be tit and proper. The Bishop of BATH and WELLS thought the Noble Lord's amendment unnecessary, and on that ground he would oppose it. The House divided on the amendment, when the numbers were— Contents Non-Contents Majority On our readmission to the Bar we found The Earl of ELDON observing, that he had a clause to propose with which he would not trouble their Lordships until the third reading of the Bill. The object of it would be, that a person, when admitted to office, should not practice that office until he had subscribed the declaration. tie did this with a view to prevent from acting persons not duly elected. The Duke of WELLINGTON asked if the Noble Earl meant to allude only to Corporations? The Earl of ELDON—To Corporations merely. He would, with the permission of the House, now read the clause, that after the words, " and he it enacted, that any person elected to any such aforesaid office, who shall omit or neglect to subscribe to such declaration," &c. the words " that shall not be lawful for any such person to perform any act of such office until he has subscribed," &c. The LORD CHANCELLOR had been employed in considering the best method of distinguishing those who were to be called upon to make the declaration. Various plans had been suggested by Noble Lords. One was to enumerate all the officers liable to make such declaration; ' another was, that all persons now called on to take the sa cramental test should hereafter subscribe the declaration.— He had considered the latter as the most convenient, but it was obvious that as it stood it would involve a number of small offices, and render the form little less than ridiculous. The difficulty he had foreseen had however been obviated by a reference to an Act of the sth of George IV., in which the exceptions proper to be made were laid down, viz. all officers of Customs and Excise, all subordinate officers in the office of the Postmaster-General—he thought these included all whom it was necessary to exempt. It had been also suggested to exempt officers of the Army and Navy, and he had exempted such officers op to a specified rank. He thought the clause of the Bill had better be read—and if it occurred to Noble Lords to introduce any other exceptions, it could be done. The clause having been read, the Noble and Learned Lord stated his intention of proposing the exemption of all officers of the Navy under the rank of Rear-Admiral, and all officers of the Army under the rank of Major-Gene ral, or C,donel of Militia—and all officers of Excise and Customs, and officers subordinate to the Postmaster-Ge neral in his office. 'The Learned Lord then observed, that with respect to the time and place of making the declara tion, he had fixed six months. If the Noble and Learned Lord thought a longer time necessary, in consequence of the occasional absen ce o f persons f rom th e c ount r y w h en appointed to office, it would be easy to add a clause to that effect. The Noble and Learned Lord then stated his in tention to propose, that in, and near London the place fur subscribing to the declaration should he the Court of Chan cery, or the Court of King's Bench, and that at the dis• tance of thirty miles from London, it should be the Quar ter Sessions. The Earl of ELDON' observed, that the time was an important matter, and ought to be considered. The Duke of WELLINGTON made an observation which was not heard below the bar, we believe to exempt from subscribing the declaration, only officers under the ' rank of Colonel. Viscount GODERICH observed that there were some other small branches of the Revenue, the officers of which ought to he exempted—the Hackney Coach Commis sioners, for example, Perhaps the better form of cxewp tion would be—to exempt all officers engaged in collecting the Revenue. The Earl of CARNARVON suggested some modifica tion of the clause relative to the place for subscribing the declaration. Persons who resided at considerable distances from places where the Quarter Sessions were held, would he greatly inconvenienced if forced to attend there, and ; would hare to travel two or three hundred rAiless The Earl of FALMOUTH had an amendment to pro pose. The Noble Earl then read the clause, which was to the effect that no Member of any Corporate Body should have any vote or voice hi the nomination to any Church appointment or benefice, until he had made a declaration of assent to all contained in the Book of Common Prayer, and the ceremony for the administration of the Sacrament. He would, however, forbear to move it now.—(Calls of move, move. )---He had considered a good deal of the subject of Church patronage belonging to Corporate Bodies, and had found that many Corporate Bodies had such power. Par liament could never wish that the Dissenters should have the power of entering the Church, and enjoying Church benefices. He wished for security against this danger. Lord HOI.LAND said, that if the Noble Earl intended to press this amendment, it must be discussed, and he would therefore recommend its being postponed. He himself had an amendment to propose, and he would do so at a future stage of the Bill. The amendment was then read and put. Lord ELLENIIOROUGH objected to the amendment. The Bishop of LLANDAFF considered the Noble Earl's motion would merely conjure up images of terror, without any reason for so doing. The Earl of FALMOUTH would net press the House to a division. The amendment was withdrawn. The Bishop of LLANDAFF was desirous to obtain the insei tion of a clause to this effect, viz.:-- " That persons who are members of the Church of Eng land shall not be required to take this declaration." Lord HOLLAND said, it might be desirable that he should state his intention to move, after the report was dis posed of, that the third reading of the Bill be fixed for Monday, and that their Lordships be summoned to attend on tbatsday. He also took that opportunity to sly, he in tended to enter a protest against one of the clauses which had been introduced into the declaration.—[As well as we could collect the Noble Lord's objection was, to the use of the word " maintain," in that part of the Bill. ]_He had nothing further to add, than to move that the Bill as amended be printed. The Report having been brought up, and the amend ments agreed to, the motion was put, and the Bill, with the amendments, ordered to be printed. On the motion of Lord Hotidoin, the third reading of the Bill was fixed for Monday, when their Lordships were ordered to he summoned.—Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 25. On the motion of Mr. DENNISON, the Surrey Coal meters' Bill was read a third time, and passed. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from va rious parts of England, against the Corn Laws. Mr. D. BARCLAY obtained leave to attend the House of Lords on the Penryn Disfranchisement Bill. Mr. ASHURST presented several petitions from Ox fordshire against the Catholic Claims. The Marquess of CHANDOS presented petitions to the same effect from three Parishes in Bucks. Lord W. POULETT presented a petition from Middle burgh, in the county of Durham, against the importation of lead ore.—Ordered to lie on the table. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions from Bristol, against the Bill for the Regulation of Friendly Societies. Mr. W. PEEL said it would be extremely desirable that the questioa relating to Friendly Societies should be set at rest. He had this day received a letter from a most respectable gentleman in the country, stating that the greatest agitation prevailed amongst the members of those societies, and that if the Bill was persisted in, there could be no doubt that many of those Societies would be dissolved, and the consequence would be, that great numbers would be thrown ou the Poor,' Rate. Mr. JOHN WOOD said the Committee were about to examine witnesses on the Bill, so that nothing would be done without consideration. The retrospective clause would be withdrawn, and the consequence of its removal was, that the Bill would not affect the societies now in existence, nor could these societies by any future Act come under the Bill. Mr. CHAPLIN presented a vast number of petitions from towns in Somerset and Wilts, relative to the importa tion of Corn. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented several petitions from various Friendly Societies, against the Friendly Societies Bill. Mr. C. CALVERT presented a similar petition from the True Sons of Equity Friendly Society. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR presented a petition from the town of Stockton-oa-Tees, Durham, in favour of the Catholic Claims. Also a similar petition from the town of Littleton Lodge, in Yorkshire. CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION. Mr. MOORE rose, pursuant to notice, to present a petition from the Lord Mayor, Sheriffs, and Commoners of the city of Dublin, against the Roman Catholic Associa tion in Ireland. In presenting this petition he felt it ne cessary to say that he conceived this Association as cal culated to disturb the peace and endanger the safety of the whole kingdom. The petitioners pointed out the evils which were inflicted upon the community at large by its proceedings, and they requested that the House would interfere and use the most prompt and efficient mea sures for its suppression. He should have confined himself to moving that the petition should be received and read, but that as he was in total ignorance of what were the intentions of his Majesty's Government, he could not reconcile it to his sense of his own duty were he to omit offering a few observations to the House. If this were not deemed a pro per occasion for so doing he would sit down, but if it were the fitting time, he would entreat the indulgence of the House while lie did that which he conceived to be his duty. He need scarcely remind the House, that previous to the year 1825, the Catholic Association had attracted the attention of the Government, and the consideration of its proceedings were solemnly submitted to the Legislature, upon which occasion the great majority of both Houses of Parliament declared that it was a dangerous and unconsti tutional Association. The result was, that a gill was immediately brought in for its suppression, and the ablest Advocate in that House had recommended them to submit to the provisions of that Bill. They pro fessed to do so, and did in fact keep within its provisions, though they violated the spirit of it by immoliately creating a new system of Association. The Bill of 1825 confined their sittings to 4 consecutive days, but this new Associa tion had so framed its constitution, that it exceeded 14 days, and yet kept strictly within the provisions prescribed by the Bill. They were the same body, and they possessed the same powers, and the same authority, and were in fact the same persons also the ° nd controlling the Catholic affairs, association they were likewi se iA " power of was d directing composed.ctin They continually interfering in all the great measures of public policy. Every possible objection that was urged and maintained in 1825 against the old Association applied with force to the new, and more could Ise raised which did not apply to the former Association. He would not then enter into a detail of their proceedings, but would direct the attention of the House to the fact that some objects which were in infancy in the old Association, had been matured by the new. He would also call the attention of the House to the connexion between the Association and the Priesthood of Ireland, and to the multipieity of agents disseminated through all:parts of that country, under the specious pretext of collecting Catholic rent. A system of organization had been contrived by them, and extended through the country, under the patronage of the priesthood, aided by indivi dual members of the Association. After all this, it surely was not too much to designate it a frightful political engine. It was an independent Roman Catholic Republic living within a Protestant Constitutional Government, moving in the same sphere as the Government of Ireland, legislating with the same influence, and some times even eclipsing it, and deranging its movements, and producing a powerful effect on the social and political system of Ireland. It was unnecessary to enter into a dis cussion, or prove by a train of reasoning, the baneful in fluence that such a system must produce on society.— He need not refer fur that purpose, to those treasonable and sanguinary associations, such as the Ribbon Association , against which this Roman Catholic Association had ad dressed an exhortation to the peasantry of Ireland. God forbid that he should raise his voice to question the sin cerity of that exhortation ! God forbid that he should insinuate that there was the remotest connexion, either directly or indirectly, between the Catholic Association and those Associations ; he knew that there were in that Association gentlemen of the highest respectability, of the moat undoubted loyalty, and of the first rank of the Catho. lic aristocracy; gentlemen of high and honourable feelings, and who would he horror-struck with the idea of having the name of that Association coupled with those san guinary Associations ; and he therefore thought that any tking which he might bring forward would not be understood even to insinuate that any connection existed between the Catholic and those Associations; be would, at the same time, say that he must be slightly acquaintes! with human nature who did not know that the best men ; engaged in the ardent pursuits of objects of interest of ambition, however ionocent might be their own views ° the means employed by them, were sometimes a pt t: overlook the dangerous nature dint tendency of the schemes by which they sought to advance their objeet ° ' He could not conceal from himself that those sa eguirlarY Associations received some sort of encouragement from t be • example of a body like the Catholic Association, cet i l • independently and utterly regardless of the Governme," 4 The general influence of thi s Association upon the It of its proceedings, conn ec t e d with th e occurr e nc e s of Community was not l e ft t o con j ec t u r e , for a c ar e ful peril' the day, would slimy the instances in which it i n finencd the feelings of the Irish population. He should self: one of many instances, and one which came home ta privileges of that House. He did not state the fact PI his own knowledge, but the source from which he O m derived the information was such as to induce him to it the fullest credit, and as it was one which might be essii , disproved if incorrect, he had the less hesitation in bri 4 . • ing it forward. It was well known what an outel ) j was raised by the Catholic Association against t I4 SuMetting Act, and that the Hon. Member for Wate r ' ford presented a petition from that body against that Ae r ' ti That Hon. Member, in the assertion of the dignity e a ,„ characterl of an English senator, avowed himself fries to the principle of the Act against which the petition " I° ., • directed, but the consequence of that honest assertion of opinion called for the censure of the Catholic Associati on ; which discussed his conduct at the bar of their tribunal li° , denounced him, and in less than 48 hours after this cost° . wss pronounced, a riotous assembly, influenced by snob P r :i ciolings, rased to the ground e range of fences ere cted upon private property. He would say that the RomanDr h : s lie mind of Ireland was not only susceptible of poison, 11- , that it was actually poisoned by the Catholic Ausociatil and a stronger proof of this assertion could not be orr i ; than the circumstance which he had just stated. I' were asked whether he could remedy the evil at pro he should say no—(hear, hear)—but it was for him to say what the decision of that House or of Lh Government might he. The Hon. Member having a" verted to the Convention Act, and the Act of 1825, vaned, for the consideration of the Law Advisers of the v' t vernment, whether the proof of the identity of the pre p Catholic Association with the separate Meetings of Roman Catholics would not be, under every considerst l° o i sufficient to bring this Association within the operatie , ' the law. He did not take up this question as a party to s .4 6 ' hostile to the Catholics; but if he did, he should cel`L them to continue the Association, as the hest means cf 7, barring them from the attainment of their professed ° ject—Catholic Emancipation. fc Mr. S. RICE rose to support the object of the .. ° 0 Member, but he did not so upon different grounds fe ° o those urged by the Honourable Member. It always the practice, previous to a discussion olc tbt Catholic Question, to introduce some question calcoo t j to produce a warm discussion, and to prejudice the q uesO d of emancipation, which ought to he discussed calmly temperately. He did not say the petition now present was intended for that purpose, but it was well calculated have that effect. For argument's sake, ho a dmitt b that the Catholic Association was a grievance 'iti °c „ was greatly to be deplor e d, and which ought to be s o l e pressed. He (Mr. S. Rice) was as anxious for the sue pression of the Association as the Honourable 1 0 e j° her could be ; and he thought this petition not o ral a petition for suppressing the Catholic AseociatiOf but it was also a petition for Catholic Ernancipatioirl j Every thing else had been tried without success to 17 e down the Association, let the House now try t , effects of Emancipation, and he had no doubt of the r io suit : for his own part though he had been attacked in tot Catholic Association, and was indifferent to the applause e s intended io l censure of that body ; he contended that the Cath e ' b , ' Association had a right to express its opinion on the P ° 4 ,,, lie conduct of publicilnis (); cat He e n tbut dido the Act' renewle not was k n e t o w n vi of - suppressing;t er his Majesty'stheCatholic Ministersic l that Ireland could not continue much longer in its pre ° state. tea' The petition was brought up and ordered to be prio Mr. 11100 RE presented several other petitions trova I ry corporated trades in Ireland to a similar effect. th Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the i-c ir be Riding of the county of York, for protection agains t t importation of foreign lead ore. Mr. LIDDELL moved an Address, lac., for an a ocoo of the total number of prosecutions for forgery on the /3 3 , ° 4 of Great Britain, during the last ten years; and a OW' return as to the Bank of Ireland far the same period. t , Mr. S. COOPER gave notice, that on Tuesday Dei t, ." ; the 2.1 of May, he would call the attention of the Ho use the One Pound Bank Note Restriction Act. Lord G. SOMERSET presented several petitions 5 the Friendly Societiee Bill, as did Sir John Aetley, Wiltshire. Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition in favour rri Catholic Emancipation, from Queen's County. Mr. CA LCRAFT presented a similar petition from P r Chester. TITHE COMNIU rATION. 'O ll Lord Viscount MORPETH, in presenting a pet Sl O/ from the parishioners of the Union of St. Mary's, Pe Ross, county of Wexford, referring to proceedings in° Consistorial Court of Foams, read largely from the sta te ments of the petition. It appeared from these, that 111. 0 parishioners of this very extensive union, between 80, 0 .4 and 40,000 in number, had, some time since, offered w, incumbent, the Rev. Mr. Morgan, to allow him betavr! 1,200/. and 1,4007. per annum, in lieu of putting out ha tithe in kind. This offer was made in 1828, which ‘f ej a year of great agricultural distress; and pending the oa successful negotiations that subsequently ensued, for WI ; ing such arrangements into effect, the matter came no l li the provisions of the Tithe Act, into the Ecclesisei r e f Courts. Of the enormous expences incurred there, and the conduct of the Commissary, these petitioners 0 0, cially complained ; and they prayed, that in future, w t ; reference in all disputed claims might be direct t o t e ' superior Courts, passing over the ecclesiastical juriedic ti ' , altogether. Mr. 'MOORE defended the conduct both of the Revery(' Commissary and the Incumbent in refusing to become party to an arrangement, his acquiescence in which was matter perfectly within his own option. Mr. M. FITZGERALD supported the petition. ' lO , Hen. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Moore) had said the the Courts of Law established for the purpose of cleallol', with cases of this description were sufficient for all the Fe" poses of justice. in order to enable the House to eatim etf the value attached to such an appeal by the parties thel s selves, he would report to the House the answer he receive" to such a recommendation from a substantial farmer 1 ° Ireland. The answer was this—" Plase your Honour' would you have me carry my cause into Hell, wkere tb s Devil's Judge ?" (Much laughter.) After a few words from Dr. PHILLIMORK, Mr. LAMA and Lord Morterril, the petition was read, and order' . to he printed. On the motion of Colonel SIBTHORPE, returns were, ordered of the quantity of Wool and Woollens impo rte and exported during the last three years. Colonel SIBTHORPE presented petitions from A a bbfo in Lincoln, and two other places, in favour of tome protcr' tive measure upon Corn.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. W. SMITH presented petitions from a certal'o number of Catholic inhabitants of Norwich, praying 10( the repeal of :111 disabilities on account of religion ; from ej village called Coesey, in the neighbourhood of Norwich, a's from the United Associate Presbytery of Glasgow, to t 1 same effect.—Ordered to be printed. On the motion of Mr. W. SMITH, an Address to the Throne was ordered for copi es of all correspondence Wit' Foreign Powers and the British Colonies respecting the Slave Trade, from the Ist of January, 1826, to the pre' sent time. Mr. MACQUEEN presented a petition from certain in' habitants of the county of Bedford, praying for protectioa to agriculture. This wan the first petition of this descrip' tion ever signed by 600 shopkeepers. 1 Mr. F. PALMER observed, that the shopkeepers C . , agricultural towns had found out that they depended uls°'" the agricultural part of the population for all they had."' Ordered to be printed. Simi►ar petitions were ton, presented from Rippingale, Poy o ' prie and Oakingham, by ted. Mr. HEATHCOTE.—.—OrdeTed tO be A petition w as presente d f rom G ran th am , aga inst ant further conces s i ons to t h e C at h o li cs . Mr. HUME h a d be en i n f orme d t h a t a cons iderabl e change had t a k en p l ace i n G ran th am , i n f avour o f Catheli C Emancipatio n . An H on . MEMnva ( w hose name we could not learn ) said, G ran th am was as m u c h opp ose d a s any town in th e country to the Catholic. General PHIPPS expressed his indignation at ;be language of the Catholic Association respecting the House of Commons. The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. Sir T. D. ACLAND presented a petition from NeWar l° in favour of the Catholic Claims. A similar petition was presented from Horncastle, I s) ; Mr. Cuss; from Morley, by Mr. W. Weramonn a ry l from Wolverhampton, by Sir J. Witorrzsr.zir.—Ora re ' to be printed. Mr. FYLER presented a petition from the FriendlY Societies of Coventry, against the Friendly Societies Ordered to be referred to tie Select Committee on the 13 1 "; Sir G. NOEL presented a petition from Owners 611' 9CCUpiers at the pro I *ye. The He intended ►_Trade to L foreig n ma ;tic); Mak believed it by Way 0: ti oration. C. in n am i ng Act would i „ntro(luce Hon. Men: declined cr LE in Dorsett, dered to be Sir M. Catholics ddesley, ripation. Mr. 1-1 todents C 4 Pon the s Lord 1 Catholics , Catholic ( Mr. C. douse goi On the Mr. LE itetions to Committee t he memo!