The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-17 00:00:00

~~ Were not Pi" that the ill; Rouse that :i; e nted, as to Finance t, it would r 100. Gentle:: y had often a of the e' tr to the -eS ° r, therefore, °; consequence on) would be disappon 3 3 , faith with wing of bev e l; t be a shades' 1 he entered 0 ild be unwer w ' particular ye p ' r establishtne °, igerted that 114 to some attst t l 4 6 y, it might j had been pick ttee had alre"', ak of it as be'f'' y both from . Member opr A to make isl e ,e expected 1 0 : )n the contra() done by it, 64 reduction itl able and impo rt erne nie out would t thick that tr,t eking into til / lull. Ile 60 1 1 2 turfit from i b , r ,f the few 0 " 4 , n fair princil ,y some part'.; !hipped up by hi* naa)oi ll , ry question on. Member i tt t Comsnitteet v re just those ;served, that ', seven or eig: . ; etion whiell° tide saving ill I}' e Finance 0) " 4 ; wing of seve° 01 , was totaUi .aken before w- !tit 'in pos. , - 011 ught not to V what was the ie Exchequer, ` ttement to vib i f e was a defieie°; five milliore , bat that SitA iPt i amount of S 1)1 4 ae :.r on the vv, r upon Exchell!'i w of the Sink ° cle there as do a 1. As to S' e , was, that tb:y Lx. as regarded.oo, the supposi ii ii . the expendi o ,i, to pay the de 6 l : o , he Bank, a r one who sou ' s l ' bargain wt tb would say', Cher, to the 1 11 ,':, xgain had PO",, not be revive" u the supposi to : c. What, tb4 plunged int o tb : d, by any eiteti_. o A, unto that dy e. e it but too pe r . pect, if the was in truth v3te one fartbi" :o be nectsAar!' use must exl) 6 id multiplicity tance Commito t : not the Coma e hint - the Fil3, er all the subjet.'" in every required. / 19 '' ' .1 whether the b` l e taken to keep t 4? To arrive,' the scientific 'l l i required in .hir I in a v ariety is men could Right Lion. Ge n ; d be kept UP .t that the 0 e amount o f old them be 03 a (i i i moronin yotop; g knowledge o f t al but f o r die br° : j had just reo tu, , ,st positively : not one farthu.*v evenue , unle° a proof of its sv imagine suc h / 1 practicable. do it intended to , what was 1 4 ,. Lignity of the klember for, Cal try were to .I t u d i t, harmony, °I ) their import'', resorted to ev er : ) , 3uld form a y et of this Con o 4 in the other, ai , which was q u ni at attended 11 °, $ ae would say t o " f . " 'as sn much 01 , Finasce C ° it confess th is upon the o o Ju br° , 91 opposite, t t , Dud could be 89 1, ig itself. I% seas hich evidenc e° , of it as use les ;: if it we' u t , e 9- ie Hon. 31e03 cient for the p ur e n. Aletnbcrs " 0 ,1 , cessary, 0 0 g r b . S see , :o the (A)mt°" [ear.)—heAP the Members , I using the ku ° .' i : but solart bll 'v !d that the 9t 3te ; louse was 3 're hence given h e ° 4 1 : 0 , present, that mbar had arrice" tt i? f statement 0 o f deficiency of S would enter ru oi 0 the cou °i .) M em b er had rT i s mmittee, or he finances Of of was the laboarvel, ie Hon. d to the Hoe / . La arinciple stat e ",,ot 'De that could proper or F t statement tv i . j ,, l e ( l) I read was 10 1 ,0 If, and he vi ° • le of garbling Of dem an. pa *a 4c ale° Personal imputation by the use of the word garbled, which l e Wanly employed as incorrect or incomplete. 41 'ir- 'MAURICE FITZGERALD agreed with the Noble Lord (Howick), that on going into the Committee they ought to he guarded by one principle, namely, the Ineau s of meeting the expenditure; but he did not agree with the Noble Lord that no vote ought to be granted till a nec essity for the grant was shown actually to exist. Such a P r inciple could not be reduced into practice. He ex- P l : ess ed hie anti c ip a tion s o f muc h b ene fit re s u lti ng f r om th e Fin ance Committee. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen VPR'sed a vast saving c ould b e e ff e ct e d. He (Mr. M. ' t zgereld) disbelieved it ; but he thought that if they as se4tetl to the appointment of a Committee, they should allow ara PPeals fro m it t o th a t H ou se, at least until its Report was ~.., 7 4 befor e them. Nothing had been publicly heard upon m e 'nbject until to-night, and now, for the first time, two e ulbers of the Committee were found in violent vonflict eerttai w be sum of eight millions of the public money. It was a y not a very convenient mode of doing businese, fur nisrlittee to be sitting up stairs on the whole question, a ti u 4 : l then to call upon the House, without any Report, to better difficult points, on partial grounds. If so, the ho t ii t et mode would be to put an end at once to the select and let the whole subject be discussed by the House Stur ge•No doubt the appointment of the Committee had sho rtened . the sittings, and he (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) had ex- P t : a ctell that when once the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was it, there would, for a time at least, have been an T"' of his speeches upon public expenditure.—(Hear.) to had another feeling regarding the Committee, and e ,waa this—that it had been meddling with matters h e should be sorry to see in their hands.— th. e had no objection that they should inquire into all detail s o f t h e R evenue; b ut surely they w e re not ke lY to throw muc h light on the general policy of the Pl'aut rY• He, for one, should no more think of leaving to tlteir decision questions of general or colonial policy, con r'Leeted with th e arm y, th e n avy, the o r d nance , S ec . th an h e 4114 11,d h e willing to intrust it to my Uncle Tobv or Cur- Poral Trim.___(Hear, hear, and laughter.) If called upon l '', 4 .Point out one body worse qualified than another for such i * inquiries, he should at enee direct attention to the 44nuaittee of Finance. He feared that there was no reA ter del • mnon than to represent that that body would ect anything extensively and practically useful. He knew Tnothing, indeed, but what he had heard, like everybody ;se, in th e streets ; b ut h e h a d as k e d t h e question, who a ° et' it was lik e ly that the Committ ee wou ld accom pli s h ee w ing to th e e xtent of five millio ns ? Th a t sum w o u ld tittle enoug h ; an d as it was l ess t h an t h e country h a d a n ght to look for, a very trifling impression would be Pr Wuced by it; but when he found that the retrench rin 1 t to b e e ff ec t e d wou ld not excee d a m illi on an d a t ; , " 1 or two millions, people at large would not give ,Ilembers any great credit for their exertions.— „ e nad understood that the Committee had extended their ' Cluitiee to th e O r d nauce D e p ar t men t, an d thi s aga in tirliQught him to the questi o n, w hy was th a t t o b e acc om- Lted through the medium of a Committee which ought done on th e res p on sibility o f th e diff erent depart ?--(Hear.)—The Noble Duke now at the head of a Government was formerly at the bead of the Ordnance tl_, it teas said he had completed all practicable reduc mia.'• If, then, the Committee went beyond the point to ‘44 'eh he h a d p rocee d e d, th e p ro b a bility was that it would th e Y,' lo mischief by its interference. It seemed to him that a,h. 4 enabers of it were ignorant upon all those points on e t: l,l they ought to be informed before they undertook f general investigations. He could say of such of his Le 7 tis as were upon the Committee, that they were corn- Vtitt to the ordinary purposes for which Members of Par - tx ne et were inteuded—(Hear and laughter)--but it was i t :11 41110 Y dangerous to allow them to go beyond their aged r, and to touch great subjects, for the management e i a i nvestigation of which they were never inte n d e d, pr 'eer hy nature or e d ucat i on. C oncurr i ng ent i rely i n the u 'iPle, that the House was bound to consider th e means f l making good the Estimates, before it resolved itself into t e e°ll :nriittee, lie thought the warning of the Honourable „,_ , ru her a little ill-timed. The House was not to be con eal'-,,`tl int o a Court of Appeal from the Finance Cons ;4ee, Without due notice, and without any of the in- I. A , ka tion that had been laid before the select body. e t -4 , L r • HUME and Mr. PALMER (of Berkshire), rose IL "se same time : the former was proceeding to reply to *e xtraordinary attack just made by the Hon. Member, as there was a general call in the House for Air. PALMER proceeded—The information of the Hon. ," e ntlens an who had just sat down was nut altogether cor .ll/4,t ; and, as a humble Member of the Committee, he was suAe to state that that body did not think great national questions within its province. :Ir, Alderman WAITHMAN expressed his conviction t neither the House nor the country would trouble it hadruneh about the labour of the Finance Committee. He 154,2° ' , eh confidence in the exertions of the iodividual tai i ,:,'"a; but he had maintained before, and he main now, that however proper it might be to: ppoint a fu,,,, 11 , e Q Committee, it ought not to supersede the th,`"las of the Government, and that the discussions on ry e ' t tnates ought not to be postponed.—(Hear, hear.)— i at ! Roust t oo wou ld no t d o its duty if it did not inquire IC' grie vances and re d ress t h em, an d one o f t h e most cry tl grievance* was an expenditure beyond the means of killeouutry to sustain it. An Non. and Learned Gentle (.ll, ' on a former occasion, had shown that on an average sl b jetson in *ems throughout the kingdom was receiving th, from the poor-rates, while more than one-seventh of t P°Pulati on wise struggling to avoid the necessity of aek qfior p ar i s h rel i e f . T o t h ese were to b e a dd e d a ll w h o Mt i , ti ed support from charitable institutions ; so that when i a4 ;°nour and dignity of the country was talked of, it le those who used the expression to show that honour t d ignity were net supported at the expense of what ti°,t to he muc h d earer —the mere necessaries of life for " The orders. House then resolved itself into the COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. t r G. CLERK rose for the purpose of detailing the s L nos f or th e Naval Service in the present year. It 0t4,, 14 , at be recollected, that in the early part of the Session, IV half the sum to be required had been voted, under nek: l Pectation that the Finance Committee would soon , i _ l ta Report, regulating the expenditure of the differ tit:Partments. The labours of that body having been i 'allY extended, it had become necessary to call for the of the money ; and it was proposed only to t° t he balance of the Estimates, as originally laid upon t able. Hence he should secure the acquiescence of the Ipkstriber for Wareham (Mr. Calcraft), who had said , 5 054 11 e sh ou ld not o bj e ct to vote the sum remaining due 14,, the Estim a tes some months since laid upon the table. 544- he was of s e amen and marines way thirty thousand, Wae sure no man who had turned his attention to ta c 'tdije e t wou ld w i s h t h at nu mber reduced. Although th e vi 4 ( * l wee a t peeve w ith a ll the world, yet its comm erce eit„seread to every corner of the world. In many parts of the tai serious disturbances prevailed, and a large naval 4 ,tl e ' v as therefore necessary for the p rotection of our ise a '' independent of the depredations to which it had l es,', l ex Posed in the Levant and the West Indies. He be -11,,4'4; it was unnecessary for him to go further u p on this because in the various discussions, 4, 1 d lie the numbe too reat, ex not a single Mein ,FVeug the stet e nlon. that Memberought the fur Montrose, r who, g as usual, tie I llsiet e n upon th e naval establishment of 1792. When " ° n• Alderman (Waithrnan) expressed his surprise at I yy c Con to the naval force si n ce 1817, he see med to t(i that a 044 st complaint had actually b een mad e in this house Admiralty for net keeping an adequate •, ) ,'n the West Indies In the East of Europe, and tune cause, it h . asl also . had been necessary to N ip o additional number of ships of war; . e . x .a - N,enuarkets opened to our commerce in South Nit , fl re luired protection. The Hon. Member for Montro . se 1 0 , 1 , 41 Plained that he saw no disposition to economise 41 1e 4 " the amount of the Estimates of last year. Although I %k t : ru e that the amount of force was the same, yet the 1 1 . ) ()1 4 1 -,, 0 f expense had been reduced no less than j a • - ;•! which reduction had a certain bearing on all h et nhelarn eu t s , and showed that the utmost exertions n used to resort to every practicable saving. On th, eu unt he (Sir G. Clerk) was satisfied that nothing ta - tu 'it rigid economy could make the money voted 1 41 ei e , - i t he purpose for which it was intended. The -s 'ef a : s aving had been made in the Dock-yards, by 1 - "Nr i - t he wages for the labour of artificers, and the h„ t t stor es . On these heads a saving of 1 50,000/. effected; but on the other hand, there bad been 'aset4 ito rease in the department of transports, which PP, l *. ` l 3o, o t o ll e actual saving to the amount he had n . len s tioned tai °l ' The amount of transports required must "vica u Pon the demands of other branches of the public °l' the 44 ' 1 a larger number than usual had been required ' t j u l te tak e :„ 4 ,eYance of convicts to New South Wales. The h e "n „;'"at year for this purpose had been too small by 4 t a01 4 .` about 28,0001. The Committee was aware ,sated se: ve ry extensive works were still in progress, con , ill se: e Lir naval establishment ; and with any regard ;. us Pnd v d . '"bi of the country, they could not be entirely ; c h iken f or th The smallest possible suns had, however, been "e great em ; but it would be evident that some of e i l Poxen t tl odertakings—such sea-walls, which were e L Ugth oe t Q I d aily risk, could not be abandoned for any anew er i n r ue• Reserving to himself, therefore, the right f ouled uulv g any observations upon the separate votes, lie r '4 auv a b gf the first Resolution, observing, however, that 01 men voted iu February was only for six unar, instead of six calendar months, which rendered it necessary that, on the present occasion, they should be voted for the remaining seven lunar months of the year. The first Resolution was in these terms :—" That 30,000 men be granted for the sea-service for seven lunar months, commencing on the 18th of June, 1828, including 9,000 -Royal Marines." Sir 11. PARNELL—When he last spoke it was in his capacity of Chairman of the Committee of Finance : he now appeared in his own character—that of an individual Member of Parliament. He felt no disposition, under the circumstances of the country, to resist the vote for the num ber of men stated in the Resolution ; but if it were pro posed as the final peace establishment of the country, he should decidedly object to it. The present was not the fit time fur going into the whole question, nor did he think that any correct standard could be arrived' at by referring back to former periods of perfectly undisturbod tranquillity. There was one part of the service in which lie was of opi nion that a reduction might properly be made. In the course of the inquiries of the Committ ee o f Fi nance, t h e expediency bad-been taken into consideration of continuing the Coast Blockade, and from the evidence taken, he, for one, hail arrived at the conclusion that it might be dis pensed with.-- . —(Lourl cries of Hear, hear.)—The object of preventing smuggling, it had been also shown, was suffi ciently secured by the Preventive Service, and by the other existing arrangement; and as 2,700 men were employed on the Coast Blockade, he should propose an amendment to effect a reduction to that extent. These men were quite independent of any consideration of the defence of the country and its trade. The lion. Baronet had men tioned a reduction of 130,0001. in the estimates of the present year; but he (Sir 11. Parnell) found that there was no reason for placing much reliance on the continu ance of that reduction. It appeared in evidence before the Finance Committee, that it had been accomplished in a great degree by lessening the purchase of stores, the de ficiency in which must necessarily be made good at some future period: So far the reduction was fallacious, and not substantial and bona f ide; and even the saving of 130,000/. could not be calculated upon for next year. As lie could establish the fact on evidence that could not be disputed, no great merit was due to the Government for this temporary and "inconsiderable diminution of expence. The reasons for the increase in the Transport Service had not been stated, and there were great objections to the mariner in which the Navy Board provide transports.— Whenever stores were to be sent abroad, instead of going into the market and hiring transports, they employed their own, which were made part of the establishment, and cost the country a much larger sum than it ought to do. It might be said that by employing its own transports, the Navy Board obtained greater si curity for the stores ; but the answer to that remark yips, that the most valuable merchandize was sent to all part; of the world in such vessels. As other opportunities for discussion would arise, he would not enter further into the snhject at present; but merely move as an Amendment, in order to put an end to the Coast Blockade, that the vote of 30,000 men be reduced to 28,000 men. The question having beeu put upoe the Amendment, Sir J.YORKE should merely confine himself to the pro position of the Chairman of the Finance Committee to reduce the vote under consideration 'by 2,000 men, a re-. duction which he should oppose. He was convinced that if occasion should arise we ought to have the means of fitting out two or three line of battle ships in order to give weight to any representations we might deem it necessary to make.—The Finance Committee might have done its duty, and done it well--but it was his opinion, that Go vernment had concurred in its appoiutuaent not so much from any expectation of service to the country froth it, as to answer some other purpose. It was on the subject of our shipping, however, that he intended to trouble the Committee with a few observations; and he should in the first instance state, that it appeared to hint a most ex traordinary fact, that two or three experimental squadrons bad been built, fitted out, and employed : and that, the command of the different vessels had been confided to the very officers under whose directions they had beta con structed—each of whom, in fact, jockied his own horse. (A laugh.) It was extraordinary, that no report of the results had been made by those officers; he hoped, there fore, that the Lord High Admiral would give directions to have that omission supplied. Another question to which he should apply himself, respected the manner in which the employment of officers was conducted. The first paragraph of the Order of Council of the 18th of July, 1827, signed with the revered name of " J. W. Croker," (A laugh)—stated that Captains should be deemed eligible to promotion if they should have served in that capacity for a period of four years in the time of war—of five years in time of war and peace altogether—or of six years in time of peace. It appeared to hint extraordinary and ob jectionable, therefore, that the merits and character of the whole of the Captains o. `the Navy should be decided on by the Council of the Lord High Admiral. Now, there were eight hundred captains on the list, and fifty ships only in commission—so that the Committee would see, that a great number of years must elapse before those officers could qualify for promotion.—(The Hon. and Gallant Member here referred to the case of an officer, a captain, whose commission, as such,- was dated the 27th of April, 1801, who bad not, by five mouths, completed the term of ser vice required by the Order of Council to qualify him for promotion.)--The Hon. and Gallant 'Member concluded by giving his support to the original vote, and expressing his hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would proceed in a fair open course— that he would nut mystify hie accounts and documents, and that his balance sheet would appear to advantage, when compared with those of his predecessors. Sir G. COCKBURN rose to answer the questions put by the Hon. Member who had spoken on the Committee. With respect to the statement of the Hon. Baronet (Sir H. Parnell) he felt under considerable difficulty, as he was sure the House did likewise, in consequence of the Hon. Baronet's having used the statement made before, and the partial opinions of the Finance Committee, as grounds for his motion. (Hear, hear.) But when the Hon. Baronet had not stated that the opinion he had expressed was that of the great majority of the Finance Committee, and when he (Sir George Cockburn) recollected the evidence lie had himself given•before that Committee, lie felt very awkward in attempting to answer in that House objections founded on what was known only to himself and to the Members of the Finance Committee (Hear, hear.) He thought the Hon. Members who came into that House with the mi nutes of the Finance Committee in their hands, came prepared, and acted in a manner wholly unexpected, which put it out of the power of others to meet them in argument who were not similarly prepared. He felt obliged, there fore, to throw himself on the mercy of the House of Com mons, and called upon its men - deers to say, had he not been placed in a very unfair position by the course followed by the lion. Baronet? (Hear, hear.) The HMI. Baronet came forward and said, in fact, " I, as Chairman of the Fi nance Committee, have had evidence given before me on which I have made up my mind that such and such a course is expedient." Now this. .he (Sir G. Cockburn) would say was unfair—(Hear.)---He had given to the Finance Committee all the information in his power, the particulars of which he did not recollect, and now the Honourable Chairman of that Committee came down with those documents in his hands, and made a proposition for reducing the Estimates?—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Baronet kad confined himself to the Blockade Service. There could be no doubt, as lie (Sir G. Cockburn) had said befor e the Committee, that smuggling might he kept down by the Custom-house officers and the men of the Preventive S - tivice, somewhat cheaper than the duty was now performed. lint he had told the Committee, that he considered that forc e of vital importance to the country. He had explained in his evidence, that it had preserved us from great charg e , i re fitting out two or three armaments. When asked by a - a-s -ember of the Committee whether it Was riot very expensive, he had referred to the expences of the Spanish and Russian armaments in 1790 and 1791, which had cost the country a much greater sum than any of similar magnitude since. The Coast Blockade, he was satisfied, did essential service in the protec tion of the Revenue ; and in the main they would be found a great saving instead of a loss. What enabled the Government now, in the present aspect of affairs, to avoid than of i the se au increase of our naval force ? H e was not i n the Ca bi net, and could not pretend to knotv n the there rest not in a perfectly quiet he might safely say, mare that tli eve quiet state; arid should w e remain so, if these 2,000 men were taken away, the immediate consequence would be that we should put more ships into commission. At present, our sitips were in perfect condition, and there was a sufficient number of marines ashore to put into the co they s t w ß e l r o e ck at a l d o c a t as , if a t I s ly t w o e f r s e i n so k ships the momentr i n s t He regard e d t ing food for the Navy, which enabled us to reantad the carne waginquisetarn lts•at t c h l s i , passin g even t s . He was quite sure, n opinion of other officers, that this was a highly useful and valuable force. He had stated so in his evidence before the Committee, and he should therefore give his opposition to the proposed reduction. The next point to which he should advert, was a remark that fell from the Hon. Baronet rela tive to a charge which more properly belonged to another part of the Estimates. The Hon. Baronet supported Lis attack as before, by stating he had evidence which proved that the reduction in the wages of the artificers) was falla cious, because it had lint been adhered to. Now lie (Sir G. Cockburn) utterly denied that statement. It only showed that it was impossible, if the Committee went on .• • as they were now doing, to carr y on an y discussions i n that House on these subjects. The Hon. Baronet said he had evidence before the Committee which warranted his assertion. For one, he (Sir G. Cockburn) must say that he did not knew what evidence the Committee had on this or any other point, except what lie had given himself ; but it was his duty to declare, that the statement of the Hon. Baronet was wholly incorrect. The fact was, that the condition of the fleet was so complete that we had more workmen than were necessary to keep the vessels in their proper state. The question then was, whether they should reduce the number of the shipwrights who had served the country so long, or keep them in employtnent on reduced wages? It was decided to reduce them one day a week. He would not stop tie argue whether this was a wise or unwise measure ; but by reducing the time they worked, Government did not use so many stores, nor lay out sa much in payment of wages to the workmen. If war should come on the country, another course would be n'tsces sary ; but as far as human foresight could reach, the Navy would not suffer for want of any increase of workmen in this department if it arose. He desired to know from the Hon. Baronet who had given the evidence on which lie relied as to this point. He called on the Hon. Baronet to bring it forward, and let the House argue the subject fairly. —The Hon. Baronet, by his present conduct, threw the House into the greatest difficulties. It was not fair that the Hon. Baronet and other Members of the Finance Com mittee should found statements on the evidence of which they had exclusive possession. None of us, said the Gallant Admiral, who have given evidence before the Com mittee, nor the other . Members of the House, know what that evidence is. If the person be not present to contra dict the mis-statement of his evidence, a false impression is made on the House. If the Hon. Baronet will say that on any one point the Finance Committee is agreed, I should be satisfied ; but to read parts of the evidence is undoubtedly most unfair.—(Cheers). I wili now answer the questions put to rue by my Honourable raid Gallant Friend (Sir J. Yorke.) First, as to the experimental squadron ; it is most true that we have taken considerable pains in endea vouring to improve the model and principle of our ship ping ; and I am nappy to state, that our efforts to build ships of a different construction have been attended with the most beneficial results. Formerly, sloops of war used to be beaten in sailing by frigates. Now it is otherwise. I sin not prepared to.say whose principle ix exactly the best;; because the vessels, in their trials of skill, had such different advantages; but I pledge myself that on the whole there is an immense improvement. All the new sloops beat the frigates on the old construction ; and they are the beat ships on the stations to which they have been sent out. I honestly confess I am not able to assign any particular rea son why a report on this subject has not been brought down to this House. It is not the practice, when the Admiralty launches a new vessel, to send down a report how it sails. If my Gallant Friend wishes for a report, he may have it; but it would be something novel to make a report of the proceedings of an experimental squadron. But I have not the slightest difficulty in stating that the success of the experiment is decided. Nor was it wantonly made; nar has the country been put to any expense by it. These ships were wanted, and they must have been built on the old plan, if this experiment had not been successfully made, With respect to the order for regulating the promotion of Flag Officers, I will endeavour to state what I have to say briefly and clearly. It WUa the original practice of the Navy Board to sleet such Captains to be appointed Admirals as the Ad miralty pleased. While that rule existed my Hon. and Gallant Friend was promoted ; and the Admiralty was not then in such had odour with him as it is at the present day. About the year 1744 or 1745, I am not sure which, a certain degree of dissatisfaction was shown, in conse quence of some officers, who had served gallantly in the preceding Spanish war, being passed over in the promo tion that followed, and younger officers being made flag officers over their heads, under whom they were obliged still to serve as Captains. In consequence of a remon strance from these officers, an order was passed by the King in Council, by which it was declared that all officers who had served gallantly against the enemy in that parti cular war should not be passed over, but that they should be made retired AdmiraLs, or Yellow Admirals, as they are called in the Navy. This continued to be the law for SO years, by which time there was nobody left alive who had served during that war. Then a second Order in Council was issued, which extended to any officer who had served well during any war preceding his promotion. By this order they could not be passed over, but were also entitled to the yellow flag. So the law stood up to the other day; and on it the Admiralty had acted during the last forty years. In Lord Howe's time some discussions took place respecting the cases of some officers who had been passed over ; and ever since that period the Admiralty, as a boon to the service, held these officers not only entitled to the yellow flag, but to be made active officers, if they Lad served in any way during the preceding war, From this time, only those who had not been in active service had the yellow flag. Under this re gulation sometimes very extraordinary hardships were in flicted. In a recent promotion there were instances in which officers, who had served a week or ten days in the preceding war, were promoted to active flags, though ab solutely bed-ridden, while some other officers who had served in rated line-of-battle ships in action, not having had the command of one during the last war, were passed over in favour of the man who had hoisted his pennant for a week. Another evil attended the principle of this Order in Council, the words of which applied only to commands " in the next preceding war." When this country went to war fur six months with Algiers, that event excluded every body from promotion, but the officers who were employed during these six months. Indeed, the order was altogether eo open to objection, that it could not be acted on. It was, therefore, thought proper to alter it. The good principle on which all those regulae tions were founded, was that no man could be deemed fit and capable to command a fleet who had not previously commanded a line of battle ship for some time during the war. What was done was with a view to ameliorate the rule of promotion by placing it on the most fair and rea sonable principles. In. every rank, a certain service is deemed requisite to entitle the officers to ascend to a higher station. It was hardly to be expected that a Post Captain, who had remained at his country-house, and taken no share in the toils and perils of war, should be promoted to a flag which he would only bring into difficulty and disgrace. It was considered by the Lord High Admiral in Council, which would be the best course to pursue ; and it was finally decided, that the person who had commanded a ship of the line for a certain time, four years in war, six years in peace, or five years in war and peace together, should be entitled to a flag. Whether the term be judged too much or too little, the principle is evidently fair and reasonable. With respect to the officers to whose cases some allusion had been made, I have a few remarks to offer. The House is aware, that though the Peace of Amiens was signed, the fleet was never completely peid off; and the war came again so quickly on us, that it could scarcely be reckoned a real bona fide peace. My Gallant Friend may remark, that the Admiralty, to which he then belonged, insisted that that peace was sufficient to exclude the officers from promotion, when the new war commenced. But when the case of these officers was considered before the Lord High Admiral, it was thought too much that these gallant officers should be deprived by the Peace of Amiens of what they were otherwise entitled to. His Majesty, therefore, has been graciously pleased to allow au Order in Council, that for this purpose, the Mu wars should be considered as oue. As to the last point made by my Gallant Friend, who says, " there are eight hundred Captains on the list, how can you expect them to sail with fifty ships of the line, to serve the required terms of four, five, and six years, My Gallant Friend, in this triumphant case, he supposes lie is making out, forgets the stock ou hand. I have looked over the list carefully, and I find that inure than two-thirds are already qualified.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the Officer, who my Gallant Friend apprehended would be passed over, as being within five months of the required service, I may state, that as my Gallant Friend did not name him, I cannot be sure the case I am referring to is the same ; but an officer so situated as my Gallant Friend described, I have written to myself, by direction of the Lord High Admiral, asking him whether, with refe rence to his state of health, he would prefer an active flies, or to be appointed a Captain of Greenwich Hospital. He has preferred the latter; there is therefore no in justice there.—(Hear, hear, and chee rs .) A b etter rule than the present cannot , I think, be established; nor do I see what other course can be taken, unless we resolve that every officer who becomes a Post Captain, shall become an active flag officer. Rut I beli eve th at t hi s is a principle too evidently , mischievous for a ny M em b er o f this Hou se t o support.—(Cheers.) Admiral EVANS was one of those who had been cha racterised by the Noble and Gallant Member as a Yellow Admiral. Now perhaps it might not be generally known to the House that the term Yellow Admiral implied a state of punishment, and he— Sir G. COCKBURN Lad merely used the word in its sense, witho u t me aning to cast the sli g ht es t relive familiar tion upon any pers on w h atever . Admiral EVANS would not, in that case, say a word more on the subj ect , He begge d t h e attent i on of .the lion. Member to the situation of youths entering the navy. When a gentleman sent his son into the service, they all knew the long probation he must undergo before he eould have any chance of attaining the object of his desires—a flag appointment. Unless he had great interest, it would require years of perseveratsee before a yottn4 wart breueht himself within the possibility of being posted. They Ind been asked, what right a man bad to expeet to be made an Admiral, because he came to be a Post Captain? He meant to say, that his years of long and faithful service entitled him to it. There was not one officer out of five, he believed he might say ten, who ever attained the rank of Post Captain ; but having once attained that rank, after having served as Lieutenant and Commander with un blemished characters—he did not mean to say that that was not an absolute requisite—he had a right to look forward to his services being honourably rewarded by a flag.-,- (Hear, hear.)—lle bad not the slightest doubt of his Royal Highness the Lord High Admiral's inclination to benefit the service, and trusted he would do it, by some means or other altering or modifying the orders in Council which bad bad so great an effect in producing. its present discouraging state. He believed that the whole service looked up to his Royal Highness for prot.ction, and he, for one, with the greatest respect, looked up to him to Protect them from the effect of vacillating Orders in Council.— ( Hear, hear.) Lord ALTHORP—The Gallant Admiral opposite (Sir G. Cockburn) had complained of the Hon. Baronet's (Sir H. Parnell) making use of the information be had ac quired in the Finance Committee iu that House; but he should like to knoW what was the use of obtaining inform ation if it was not to be made use of. (Hear, hear.) For his part be felt himself completely justified in stating his opinion on any point that might come before the House upon information he might receive in that Committee. His lion. Friend had proposed to reduce the number of men employed nu the coast blockade service, but the Go.. vernmentwished to retain them, on two grounds—on the ground that they were useful to the revenue service, and is a reserve for manning the fleet. He would look at them in both these points of view. Looking at them as re garded the collection of the revenue, he thought that the employment of two species of force, one under the com mand of the Admiralty and the other of the Board of Customs, highly objectionable. Jealousies between the two must be the natural consequence. He thought there fore that the force designed for the protection of the re ' venni ought all to be under the Board appointed for that purpose, which would be one means of the forc e empl o y e d on shore getting most hearty assistance in the way of in formation from those at sea. Where A jealousy subsisted there would be no cordial co-operation. With regard to the other point, which looked upon this body of men as a reserve from whence to man the fleet, he did not mean to deny they could be so made use of; but he believed, from the best informati'on he had been able to collect upon the subject, that there could not be a worse school of disci pline for officers than to be thus stationed on shore. Nei ther were the men themselves so well disciplined as could be wished. Sir G. COCKBURN said something which we under stood to be in explanation of a former statement, but it was in too low a voice to reach us. Lord ALTHORP resumed.—Whatever might be the case with the officers, he knew that the men who had been drawn from that service had not, generally speaking, been approved of by the officers wh o h a d rece i ve d t h em on board. Upon both of these grounds, therefore, he was inclined to support the motion of his Hon. Friend for the reduction. CROKER said that with respect to what the Noble Lord had said relative to the jealousy existing between the Coast Blockade and the Preventive Service he was quite mistaken. They had not the occasion to come in contact which the Noble Lord seemed to think they had, to excite such jealousy. The Coast Blockade Service began at the river Thames and went along the coast as far as Chichester, he believed, where the Preventive Service began, so that it was only where the points met that there could arise the least possible dispute, and even if there were any there, and he was not aware of them if there were, they could have no influence on the great line of the coast. The Noble Lord seemed to give a preference to the Preventive Service, because it could communicate with the shore, and give as sistance in the prevention of smuggling. But the Noble Lord did not seem to remember that King's ships were employed in the Preventive Service, and that often very effectually too. But this was a point of preference which be considered of no great consequence, for both the Preventive Service and the Coast Blockade could and would act upon any information that might reach them. He did not mean to say that he thought it a very good school for othcers who were to go to sea, but it would not Le well on that account to throw them overboard at once ; booides, it must be remembered, that the officers of the Preventive Service were draWn flout the Royal Navy. The applying the men as a body of reserve was spoken of the men alone, and not of the officers, and whatever it might be as a school for them, it was better than to be thus re maining idle. This service was so much additional em ployment found for them. With respect to the men, he had the best reasons for believing that they were not so bad as the Noble Lord seemed to believe; at any rate be thought it must be allowed that they were better than any equal number of new raised men.—(Hear, hear. )—When, a short time back, a large draft of them was made to man the guard-ships sent to Lisbon, their Captains had, some of them, been so pleased with their conduct, that they asked to have them made a part of their ship's complement, which the Admiralty was inclined to allow. Ile begged the House not to run away with the notion that it would be economical to diminish this vote. If the navy were deprived of this depot it would be the duty of the Admiralty to full man the guard-ships, which would be two thousand men, equally expensive to the public, without rendering the slightest service. This, too, would be exclusive of the force that it would be found necessary to substitute for them, whilst, at pre sent, he did nut think they were a touch greater ex pense than that new force alone would be. (!tear, hear, hear.) He would tell the Noble Lord, moreover, that had it not been for the resource the Admiralty had in the Coast Blockade men, press -warrants must have been issued to send the expedition to Portugal, in the same manner as we did in the time of the Spanish armament, That was a permanent addition to the national expenses, which he thought it strange the Noble Lord should have advocated. —(Hear.) Mr. MABERLY—He was surpriasd at the Gallant Admiral opposite having complained so much of the iq formation obtained in the Finance Committee having been made use of in that House. lie was the more surprised at it, for more candid, full, and fair evidence, had not been given before the Committee than that they had had from the Gallant Admiral himself. Sir G. COCKBURN was understood to say, that he had not objected to the information obtained in the Com mittee being made tiqe of, but to its being stated that this was in evidence, and that in evidence. It was the mode in which the informaticn was made use of that he thought objectionable, Mr. MAI3ERLY would avoid then, if possible, saying where he got his information. But in coming to a deci sion upon the Estimates., as a Member of the House,' it was almost impossible to avoid alluding to the evidence ob. ta;ned as Members of the Finance Committee. It was a difficulty in which the Members of that Committee found themselves, but which he had foreseen and communicated to his colleagum indeed, he considered Mernhers were bound to bring into a discussion of this kind all the in formation they had. The public benefit expected it of them. The Hon. Gentleman who had brought this sub ject forward, had taken credit to himself for the saving of labour he had effected ; but 'he did not think he deserved that credit, According to the accounts they had heard given there, there would be no occasion for half the labour the Estimates had provided for, and yet being able to make this great saving, credit was claimed for the small reduc tion that had been made. They would not want any build repair. He condemn e d th e Ri ght Hon. Gentle mg. a t all it appeared, but only enoug h men to keep the i n n a a v i y i, itlierefore, with not h av i ng ma d e a greater saving. I It was clear we did not want themwhy then, he asked, were they kept? B ecause, it was answered, we might want them; but when? W ou ld i t be to-morrow or next • day, or in a year to com e ? N obody could say when.— Why, then, should they be burdened with a useless expense for an indefinite period of time? With respect to the 30,000 men now proposed to be voted for the navy, he had vet beard nothing from the other side of the House that justified their keepiug up so large a face. when we were not in a state of war. The lion. Chairman of the Com mittee had formed his judgment of the facts that came within his knowledge, and so had he (Mr. Maberly) of those that came within his; and, looking at these filets, he thought himself hound to resist so large a grant. I was very well for Hon. Gentlemen who placed their whole con fidence invariably on Ministers, and who thought they had always some good reason for what they did, to agree without demur to this vote ; but it was for the House ge nerally to consider of the facts before them before they pro ceeded to vote upon any measure. The Government might have information of which he was not aware that might make 30,000 men necessary; but they, who had not such information of the prospect of war or peace, were found looking at what they knew to vote for the reduction that had been proposed. Sir E:KNATCHBULL thought the discussion upon this question would have proceeded On fairer grounds if such direct allusio n had not been made to the evidence taken before the Finance Committee.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was utterly impossible for the Chairman of that Committee to state opinion upon this subject without giving it something of the appearance of authority. lie must, however, protest against lily opinion being taken in that light. The Gallant Admiral on the other side the House, as well as the other Members of the Government, had given their evidence with the greatest fairness and with the most honourable intentions. Now, he put it to lion. Members, whether the course that had that night been taken, would not possibly induce a greater cautious ness in evidence of future witnesses.. He pressed, there fore, upon the consideration of the Hon. Baronet, the fair ness and policy of thus taking advantage of the evidence taken before the Committee.—(llear, hear, hear.)—Hon. Members must consider, besides, that it was not the evi dence they gave the House, but their opinions upon it.— (Hear, hear.)—With respect to the proposal before the House of reducing the grant of men by upwards of 2,000, he must say that be should be glad to do it if it could he done consistently with prudence. Without h av i ng a ny particular information, but merely looking to the general aspect of affairs, he should not think it wise to make any reduction in the naval force just at presen'.—(H e a r , hear.) —I-le did not think a regard for so trifling an expenre would justify them in the dismissal of so efficient a body of men.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CURTEIS had not coy information beyond what was possessed by every other Member of that House, but thought with the Hon. Baronet who had just spoken, that looking at the state of Eurcpe in general, it wouldi? -"- wise in the Government to weaken the Naval force. ; .They might shortly be called upon to raise 10,000 men, instead of dismissing - 2,000. With r,spect to the Coast Blockade Service, he knew that for two miles along:the coast of! Kent, where he kad an estate,:there were nothing but mar tello towers,—(A laugh.)—and the system, as far as the prevention of smuggling was concerned, answered very well; for although a battle occurred snore than once be tween the officers and the smugglers, yet he believed smuggling was carried on to a much less extent than for merly. Whether it was a good or had service for any other purposes, he could not pretend to say. - Mr. BERNAL understood from officers connected with the service that the Coast Blockade system was not at all calculated to raise the character of the Navy; on the con trary, the transactions in which he was informed the men were sometimes necessarily engaged tended to degrade the feelings of the British sailor. It had been said that these two thousand men formed a good corps de reserve, but as there was a diversity of opinions upon that point, he thought the fact he had stated ought to have great weight in inducing the House to reduce this particular body of men. In supporting the motion for this reduction, how ever, he did not mean to say that 28,000 or 29,000 men was sufficient for his Majesty's service. All 1w meant to do was, to express his opinion of the Coast Blockade system. Mr. CALCRAFT—Those who proposed the reduction of these men ought to consider that they were merely em ployed upon this service until they were wanted elsewhere. --(lieu.) The Government told them that 30,000 men were absolutely neesmary for the service, and that if they did not continue this force they must man the guard-ships. —(Hear, hear)—which would come to the same thing as to the number of men, but would give HS so many idl e instead of employed.—(Hear.) How did the Finance Gentlemen enlighten the house? On every point they and the Government Gentlemen contradicted each other. It was singular that the Finance Members had given in no report ; yet they came down to pronounce opinions to in • fluence the House. As to the amendment, he did not think the Government could reduce one man. They were not to anticipate war, but to avert it. He should most cheerfully vote for the 30,000 men asked by the Go vernment. Sir 11. PARNELL thought, that reports of the Finance Committee might be given too hastily. What good resulted from the early reports of the Finance Committee of 1817 ? None; they merely assisted the temporary purposes of the Government of that day. In giving his opinion he only spoke as an individual, and nut with a wish to influence the House in his character of Chairman of the Committee. Had he not a right to act here on the evidence he had heard elsewhere ? He thought he had, and would persevere using that information. The Gallant Admiral had ad mitted, that the blockade service was not necessary to put down smuggling, So far his assertion had been confirmed by the Gallant Adrairal ; with that conviction be propcsed the reduction of the Naval forr•e,- Sir GEORGE COCKBETRT stated, tbat lo evidence he said that smuggling could be put down otherwise than by the Coast Blockade; by the Custom-house, for instance, but not so efficiently as by the Coast Blockade ; but he had also said, that the chief value of that body was the facility they afforded of supplying deficiencies in times of einee gency. - Mr. HUME thought it extraordinary that any objection could be made to a Member giving his opinion on this sub ject, because he belonged to the Finance Committee and had derived his information from the evidence taken before that Committee. It was usual with Members of the Go vernment when they moved an augmentation of the naval force, to state the reasons and the purpose of them. The expenditure of last year, 10,000,000/, for the army, and 6,500,000/. for the navy, were too much for the country. The reason the Finance Committee made no report was, that they had not yet gene through the subject. Why should England exhaust her resources now in the time of peace, and thus disable herself against exertion in time of war. Every other country of Europe was rrelucing its force, so ought we. We had 10,000 men more in the navy than we wanted. If he thought the navy as a defen sive force could not be safely reduced, he should never vote the reduction of a man. It was impossible for any ntan to say that all the ships of war now scattered over the world were necessary to our commerce, or our de fence. The United States had not one-tenth of our Navy, yet their commerce was as safe us our;. The t united • States were wisely husbanding their resources in peace to meet the exigencies of war. Twenty thousand seamen would be quite sufficient for our necessity. Three or foot thousand marines might also be safely reduced. If Mem bers would persist it; leaving these matters to the Govern ment, the sooner the Members left the House and shut up the House the better—it would be better than to have such a House of Commons as the present was. He would rather shut up the Holm, and have but one responsible Minister, than have a House of Cominons that took off all responsi bility from the Ministers. The Ministers were not more responsible than himself; not so much, for he was respon sible to his constituents. He did not object to the pro posed vote as a war establishment, though be did disap prove it as a peace establishment. Sir C. COLE bore testimony to the efficiency, th e courage, and abilities of the Officers of the Coast Blockade. If be got the command of a line-of-battle ship, he would feel great confidence in having 100 men of that service. The lion. Member for Sttssexl4d attested the general good conduct of the men. He was surprised to hear of a reduction, in the present state of Europe. He should heartily vote for the present estimate. Sir JOHN BERESFORD thought the naval force ought to be kept at a rate necessary to support ON huAtour of England. He could not consent to 4 dirnintiticlti of the present force, 2ir J. GRAHAM could not vote for the reduction of the Navi io giit li vs e epa t r l ne ; o u np g ti h n, t iloeln t i l e te aotef ll t l hs i i t et d ur s a t o e tli r iot s ri: a a ( l . t e l d t si conditionenl ) o ' t i oo n rr ottliteis, thn e was moving h er army, an d that France was ptecloirliaelniptrilantrrgy Russiang an armament. If we reduce tie Navy we de prive England of her right r.;•tp, r i nd disable her Alinisters from preset isig the peace of Europe. Under those cir cumstances he could not consent to reduce the number of seamen. Sir J. BRYDGES opposed the Amendment. The Amendment way then put, and negatived tvithnt a division, and the original motion eat vied. • The sum of 514,5001. for prOvisianz, was then voted, and 336,0001. for wages, On the Estimata of 80,323/. 15s. 9d. for the Salaries of the Officers of the Admiralty and Navy Pay Office, for the year 1828, Sir J. YORKE asked whether it was still the intention of Government to continue the unnet , essary establishment of the Paymaster of Marines, together with his eight clerks. Sir •• G. CLERK stated that tkere was quite labour enough for the persons in that office, arid that the duty Wa , very ably performed. He was sure that any change in this department would produce no saving to the country. Mr. HUME hoped the Government would abolish the Navy Pay Office altogether, without waiting far the Report of the Finan ce C omm i ttee. Sir G. CLERK, in answer to the lion. Member for Montrose, thought it was not possible to conduct the pay' business with a less expensive machinery ; at all eFverntasncie could not be done without previous inquiry Committee. As for the Paymaster of Wido b,Yc ;' hePenio a i n is c i who disbursed annually 120,000/. in very s_":,a,llll,sumo, moreover, lee numerous pensioners, with many of l i i - e ye h a a r d nt.oasni surelyaint trie , ar the charge nt of 500/. , Sir JOHN BERESFORD bore testimony to the great merits of the Paymaster of Marines, without whose mi_ cent services that beautiful corps could not have existed in its present perfection. ain lit a tle en f l o T r e s s rch nd a en d e e; which Government showed to make reductions in est a bli s h_ Mr. MABERLY c omplained of the little disposition ments where they were most warmly recommended, and could be most easily effected. The Paymaster of the Navy, iu his evidence before the Finance Committee, had ex -1,,,,ed an opinion that he could dispense with ten out of his tifty-two clerks and yet in this vote on account of the , - Pay Office, there was nat the sl:ghtest reflation made or even hinted at. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his Hon. Friend (Sir G. C!erk) was 'very unfairly used. in being obliged to act, not upon the recommendation of the Finance Committee, but upon evidence given before it, of which his Hon. Friend could not, strictly speaking, be supposed to be cognizant. To the very document referred to by the Hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. :Moberly), was appended a paragraph to this effect Great inconve nience having arisen front the publication of minutes of evidence taken before the Committees, and of papers laid before them, it is particularly requested that members re ceiving such minutes and papers will be careful that they be confined to the object for which they are distributed, which is for the especial use of Members of such Com mittees."--(Loud cries of Hear, hear.)—Had his Hon. Friend proceeded on any other ground, and proposed, be fote this part of the labours of the Finance Committee was closed, any reduction, he would have been open to the objections of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, who would have declared that all Lis own better plans of economy had thus been unwarracntably frustrated by the Government, — (Laughter.) Mr. HUME remarked, that it was extremely easy to reflect upon the Hem. Member for Aberdeen. (Laughter.) Hume) He would b e muc h o bli ge d, however, to the Right Hon. Gentlem an to po i nt nut any i ns t ance i n w hi c h h e (Mr. had comp l a i ne d o f an y re d u ction of' expenditure_ (A laugh.) U nhapp i ly the Right Hon. Gentleman had been very careful never to supply him with any such ground of complaint. (A laugh.) The Hon. Gentlemen ,ntettenezatt who bad cheered th e Ch ance ll or o f th e E xc h eq u e r's ob servation might h ave 3 ia d goo d reason to d o so, if t h ere h a d been any foundation for it. As there happened to be none, h re e a e l • l o y ul t t ni only ght le ‘ a v v a e s v th e e ry m i st o t f h a erti la s u e g lv h e , s. Mr. MABERLY explained, be The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appealed to every Member of the Finance Committee who was pre sent, whether almost every proposition which Government had brought forward in that Committee fora reduction of expenditure, had not been met by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen with some expression of astonishment that it went no further. (Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) Sir .I._ YORKE was of opinion that his Gallant Friend _ _ (Sir J. Beresford), who had so much eulogised the Pay master of Marines (to whose merits he himself also bore! testimony) had really under-rated the deservings of thc. officers of that " beautiful corps." Hal he had a voive at any time in the matter, he should have proprrod Gallant Friend himself, who hail been a Colonel of I,A3' rims, ac the fittest person in the world to inspr A ilo in. He (sir J. Yorke) found that the whole Esau' a , ,i,nr the Now he did contend that the whole of ;its , hides, i , stock :1::: two officers in this ES and fluke, might be with great advantagr : transfer tei , 1 to its Navy Pay-oftice, in all its departments, — on ( ce ll ' e P a: timl up.—(Hear, wouldel m a. —r a t t ) e —ffin who iloc (lit.aeenr 'tb l d i de a l hd d e el: s anr a r: l .tt a w ;e lb e2 s iTkt-a—el for teiethrut eliea absolute YP 3i : rtr branch'i- I sinecures. idi. °l 11us ('tkalil iolnvngaess. H ; e b n i i e 1 t ante the Rear-Admiral and Vice-Admiral of Great Britai n - Theie appointments shold he abolished. w " 3' ,out :. 10,000 i. Mr. CROKER had been asked a question by an Hot " Gentleman about the Board of Longitude. He begged 1 state that he had himself declared, before the Board o t : Longitude, that if the vote of the Finance Committee should be unanimous to put down that Beard, they should 3 report specially on the subject with the least possible delay, in order that the Admiralty might resort to some other source. fur the information which they had been in the. habit of obtaining from it... Mr. VESEYFITZCiF.IIALD observed, that the sa lary o f the Vice-Admiral of Great Britain was 4691. per annum, and of the Rear-Admiral 3601. These situations were respectively filled by Lord Northeek, who was next in command to Admiral Collingwood at the battle of Tra, falgar, and by Sir James Saumarei, who was confessedhe one of the finest afloat who had ever graced the BritiA", hese L~norars t ‘ h V e he sa n the lary 01 House bot h mo o f b i s g e : l , : it v i observed that e t alelia:toptuot ed to abort 8004 a-year, were held by the companion s of Nelson, Who rr )I"vitie r :l ;; A: Lo Sfi r i' i lr l i had fought with him i;tithiettohcvede/(hcatnteleeri: te G !irPo . Al'e C vfntes le eur !: 4 , w°l ll i.t?t i vi r c . evt'l2i A :°?t° l r d e:l e lT: ri i n r a o i l i " Nlilton, Mr, Crolser, qyd aicr H. Hardinge (the laat named of whom observed that he could hardly consitler the Chan cellor of the Exchequer's observation about the paragraph appended to the report, to be 4 merely technical one, when he (Sir. H. ff.) had been refused by the Chairman of the Finance Committee a copy of his own evidence, which ex tended through a nine or ten dap.' examination, and which he had wanted for the exprea:s information of the Master general of the ordnance), the vote was agreed to. Mr. Croker further observing, that in respect of the very irre gular allusion to evidence taken before a Committee which had net yet reported, he knew that so far from the head 01 . the Navy Pay Odes concurring about the reduction of Hi, ten clerks, lie was most o posed to it, On the resolution for grunting 75,3501. for the Ofßeers' Expences, &c. of his Majesty's Dock Yards, Mr. HUME observed that the total amount of this item was 150,0001. for 1828 ; in 1792 it was only 25,0001. Was no reduction to lio effected in this vote ? Amain, he wanted to know, now that steam-vessels were so effectually employed in carrying up and down rivers, and in and our of harbours, ships of war, was it intended to keep up the present number of dock-yards ? In France it was in curious fact that the charge for the dock-yards, of manage ment, including the cost of clerks, overseers, and super- Ln i tt io zie . uts li g l e: h w e ra E ll n y g , li t s i h •as do a c s k- o y n a e rds t , o as to 14bour. it " :: t a n s tY as -t r i n r e ee- to us foi t' ir ' Sir BYAM MARTIN said that it was impossible content the Hon. Member for Abeiz!een. Since 1t9.17„ there bad been a reduction of expenditure to the amount of 51,0001. in the annual charge of salaried persona con nected with the Dock-yards, and since 1921, a further re duction of 5004 per cnnum. Mr. MADERLY contended that this statement of the. cov i ptroller of the Navy, was no answer to the question c : his lion. Friend Mr. Hume. Sir G. CLEM adniiited the importance of effecting es reduction in the ()barge for dock-yards, and the officers thereat) hot was convinced at the same time that filo Committee would feel it to be precisely that sort of east, in which it was necessary to proceed with the utmost can. Lion—tha welfare and good establishment of the servie,4 at large being so vitally important to the Lest interests (1 . the country. A desultory conversation then ensued between Sir .1, YogiCE and Sir G. COCKBURN, about the building of the experiment ship Pearl, in a private dock-yard on the coa,,r of Ls2,ex, Sir Joseph contending, that it was a most incon sistent proceeding en the part of the Admiralty to give such an order to a private concern, at a time when ever) body was lamenting the little employment to be ohtained for shipwrights who were being daily discharged from his Majesty's dock-yards ) an d Si r G. Cockburn showing that total amount of dock -11 the order had beer. given by the Admiralty c d h m ar iti e lt o y f w m it a h n a ag yi el el e ' n t t O , •ess, encourage a builder who had bceu among the most.sum ha in his attempt to improve the form of our s hips, 410 4 that if the upon whose behalf it had been undertaken , Purl' id not beat every other vessel of her class and ton-. the party wh o , nage which could be matched against her , had recommended this builder to the Admiralty wen Li take her off the hands of Government upon their ow n terrcts.—.( Hear, bear.) for the fsrmer 31,2147., Mr. HUME then contrasted t he yard expenses (salaries of offi" d 182 8. In 1792 dm superintendance, &c,) i g , 1'792 B ° , h In 1828 upwards of 150,0001. whole charge WF4S 25/3`31 for P lymouth In 179 q the whole charge Portsmouth 6,126/. him quote theta for the latter, Sir B. MANTIN said the Honourable Gentleman was. very fond a referring to the estimates for 1792, and in all 35,000 lu liii2S, the many tin' he had ,done so, be (Sir B. Martin) had correctly.—(A laugh.) It did hAPPe n, that in the estimates of 1792, which were . defectively made ate , eer) 110 I - whatever for . e tare. ten dance appeared. never heard The vote was then carried without a division. On the question that 245,0001. be voted for the Wages of the Artificers and others employed in the several dock-yards, Mr. MIME contended that some reduction ought to be made in the amount of this vote. Sir R . MARTIN said, that every practicable moans had been adopted, and were now taking effect, for gra dually reducing it; first, by reducing the number of arti ficers and labourers; secondly, by employing those who remained for particular days, and paying them for such days only, so as to distribute the work to be done, though i , tr et l ai es n s e(. quantities than fOrmerly, to. all _the hand s w hi c h were i Sir .J. YORKE did not admire this plan, but thought it would be much better to pay off at once, and march out at the Dock-yard-gates, a certain number of these meri torious but unfortunate people. Mr. HUiUE moved that the vote be reduced to 122,500/. The motion was negatived without a division. On the motion that 4 25,783/. be granted to complete the sum necessary for Umber and building materials, IllnauaLv and Mr. litrmE opposed the vote, as being too high for tbe purpose. A stop ought to 14 put --~_,