The Sun. — London, England, 1828-04-22 00:00:00

hlrnself recommended this proceeding. The oteposite party, however, said they would heovide for . the Dissenters in another way ; and eve ace it not fur that promise the great matt at the head of the Government (for a great man he eertainly.waa) tvould have ineistal on the Test and Corpo ration Act, being repealed. Such was also the feeling of Georre 1., and••the leading men of that time; but many obaPaeles arose, and accidental circumstances,'Which disap. pointed the. hopes of the Dissenters. ,IleFtrneted he hae sow shown that the Constitution was not bound up id those illiberal acts, as contended by his Noble am' Leorned :Friend. A n d as t o our having, at. the Union of Scotland, bound ourselves to the people .r En g . land to preserve these Acts inviolate, such was not the fact; it had certainly been an endeavour nit the • part of Lord . Nottingham to introduce these two , laWs into the articles of Union, but with out success the object being to defeat the-Union altog e th er . N ow, when their Lordships found that the effort of that party to intro duce these acts was a part o f t h e i r tactics to get rid el -that measureiai!. afforded a strong- proof that these Act ought to*hant been repealed. Yet, now their Lordshipe were to be told, that they were as much concluded by these Acts as by those which appeared on the face of the Act of Union. He did hope, therefore, that no Act passed no lately as the reign of Charles IL would be deemed as all inviolable part of the Gmstitution ; and he only wished hie Noble Friend, who was so anxious to preserve theni a would look at the laws passed in that happy reign. The Acts mentioned in the articles of Union were different from other Acts, because they formed part of a solemn contract hetween two powers, one of which was thereby exthse guished; they ought, therefore, to be approached with greater caution and - tenderness. So far, he (Lord Holland) would go with his Learned Friend, and Ito farther. But he never would admit that the English Parliament had no power to alter or repeal any law passed by a former Pare henient. The Earl of ELDON hoped, after the Noble Lord (Holland) had attributed to him language and sentiments which be had not used, that lie would be allowed to tres pass upon the House for a few minutes. He never said,. that the Constitution consisted of these Statutste ; what he had said was, that the Church and State combined formed the Constitution, and these laws and statutes were made for the Preservation of that Constitution. If their Lord-. -ships thought proper to change those laws, he could nhly say that he would' not be accessory to it. If every man in both Houses of Parliament were to agree to pass this Bill, he (Lord Eldon) would vote alone upon it ,eed go below the bar. Neither did he say that King Willie solid not recom mend this measure after be came to the throne ; what lie said was, that looking at King William's 'e , larations while Prince of Orange, and afterwards when King, and con eidering that Parliament, notwithstatta.ng his recommen dation, had resisted the passing of that measure down to the present period, proved their sense of the necessity and importance of preserving these acts inviolate. Alter cferring to the Inessage of Charles the Second on this subject, and the Act of the let of William and Mary, the Noble and Learned Earl said that he had now shown that the Noble Lord (Holland) had misunderstood 'Nino - b e would not say misrepresented him, because he knew euch had not been his intention. As to the effect of * 4 the march cf intellect," lie (Lord Eldon) would not say :,hat at different periods, over and over again, uneasineae had not been expressed as to the sacerdotal test. He did not hesitate to state that the test was of the most sacred na ture, and if any body else could propose another test, equally etrong, to be substituted, God forbid that lie (Loci Ehion) should object to it. But what lie said was, that wes a Matter of surprise to hint, that down to this pe riod certain Lords in this Honse had never come forward lentil now to say that this was a species of teat that ought atot to exist. All he would say was, that no consideration on this side the grave should induct him ever to be a party to such a separation between the Church and State as this Bill would effect. All he looked for was, that the consti tution be sufficiently secured o and provided that were ac complished, he was not struggling for this test or that. Ali lie hoped bar was, that when his turn came, he should leave his country in possession of that blessing unimpaired, which had so lung preserved her in happiness and grandeue. "Lord MELVILLE had no wi s h t o erolong this discua eion, but after what had been said with respect to &Zit land, he felt called on to make a few observations. Ile agreed with his Noble Friend as to the Test Act, but net as to the Corporation Act. Although their Lordships' table was loaded with petitions, they did not all call for a repeal of the Corporation Act, sonic of them confining their prayer to the Test Act alone. Now by one of the articles of Union, it was stipulated that the people of Scot land were not to be subjected to any Test. But his Noble Friend (Lord Eldon) seemed to think that the Scotch were unnecessarily intruding upon this subject, and when he 'Lord Melville) was told that English offices were be stowed on them, that was what lie could not submit to. Now such offices as those of Judges, Sheriffs, and other local offices of that description in this country, undoubt edly might be called English offices; but to be Veld that a commission in the army was an English office, was what lie uever could admit. If the King were Ia Scotland, and an office were to become vacant, such as that of Secretary of State, and the King bestowed it on an individual of that country, such individual would not, he contended, be sub ject to the 'rest Act. His Noble Friend said, that au Eng lishman could not fill an office in Scotland without sub scribing to their confession of faith. But that wee coufin - e d to a few particular situations, such as Professors of the loniversity, or parochial Schoolmasters, and by no meaes o „plied to civil offices generally. The Earl of ELDON wished to know why the inviola• bility of the laws of Scotland had been introduced into the Bill, if the test had nothing to do with them ? The Earl of FALMOUTH had listened with particular pleasure to the sentiments expressed by the Noble mid Learned Lord (Eldon.) They were the result. of long ex perience and observation, and of a warns attachment to the Church and State : that was not a reason why lie did not value them the Inure. Whet] it appeared doubtful why tber the preseut test was to stand or not, or whether any other was to be substituted, he could not help obtruding his own sentiments on so important a subject. The Noble Duke at the head of the Government had expressed his s Tot to this measure, in compliance with the senti. ments of the other House of Parliament. It was very well to give those sentiments their due effect; but their Lord ships were too well acquainted with the natureof the Consti tution to give much weight to that. This Ilouse was beund to give just as touch weight to the opinions of the House of Commons, as the House of Commons gave to the opinions of this. His Majeety's Ministers seemed disposed to support the views of those who had been invariably opposed to the principles on which they (the Ministers) acted ; he hoped that some of that conciliatory feeling would be displayed towards those who het i always advocates! those principles. Now, with respect to the present measure, a Right Rev. Prelate (whose character the Noble Earl highly eulogised) observed the other evening, that no conscientious man could make the declaration contained in this Bill without feeling himself hound by its preamble. But were their Lordships legislating for honest men? His objection to the present measure was, that the declaration was not suf ficiently solemn—and that object could b e e ff ected by mak ing it run in this way—" leclaTe i n t h e presence of Almighty God," &c. ; but all d this spe cies of security eerned to have been discarded.—(Hear. )-_He n ever saw any thing more looselyor unsatisfactorily drawn up . — When be spoke hus , he knew that he was liable to be called an ultra- Tory; any but he would not shrink from his duty on account of reproach that might_ b e cast u o be thus denominated; but he cou ld assure pon h t i h m ei r L l o i l e ol m e Ip h s t , and he wished also to show to the country, that be cherished no feeling obnoxious t o any body of people. He entirely agreed with the N o bl e Lord near him, that the two clauses_ from l the Bill, more which bad been so often adverted to ought to be expunged d's ewe with especially that whi c h en abl e d his Majesty to I. I ) • the declaration attogether in certain cases. With respect to the declaration itself, it appeared to him to be good for nothing at all. He therefore objected to the declaration, to and he al so o bj ected to the power given to t h e Crown dispense. wi t h i t. On these two points he was oppo _. ed to this Bill. Unless, therefore, something like a clear and did declaratio n or oath similar in that now administered was introduced, and those two clauses to which he had re ferred were expunged, he must resist the further progress of the measure. 'The Duke of WELLINGTON rose merely to state to their Lordships, that the Noble Lord who had just sat down slid not appear perfectly to underitand the ground on which Wellington) had recommended this Ines lie (the Duke of sure. He had not gone the length which the Noble Lord had attributed to him. He had not caned on their Lord ships to agree to this Bill because it had been passed in the House of Commons. He had merely assigned that as one of the reasons that had induced him . to recommend the mea sure to their Lordships. He certait . !: ,. bad alluded to the feeling in favour of the Bill which 1, . i for some time been growing up in the House of Cotruno: ,, , as a good reason for • itertainincr it iu their Lordships' Housc,—but other reason s also operated on his mind. Many individuals of high emi nence in the church, and who were as much interested as any other persons in the kingdom in the preservation of the Constitution, had expressed themselves as being favourable to an alteration of the law. The religious feelings of those venerable persons disposed them to entertain this measure, because they felt strong objections to the sacramental test. Under these circumstances, wishing to advance and to preserve the blessings of' religious peace and tranquillity—conceiving the present to be good opportunity fur securing to the country so inesti mable an, advantage—he had felt it to be his duty to re commend this measure to their Lordships.. —(Hear.)_ It was on all these grounds that he supported the Bill, and not on the single ground, the circumstance of its having bees carried in the House of Commons, as the Noble Lord had',stated. (Hear.) He MS not one ()I' those who considered that the best means of preserving the Con'stitution of this country was by adhering to mean sures which had been called fur by particular eircum stancss, because they had been existence for 200 years ; since the lapse of time might render it proper to modify, if not to remove them altogether. The .Nolds Lord stated that he had objections to this Bill. if the Noble Lord suffered the Bill to go into a Committee, and would there state his propositions, every attention would be paid to them. All lie hoped was, that their Lordships would not unnecessarily make any alterations in the measure that were likely to give dissatisfaction ; that they would not` do any thing which might be calculated to remove that conciliatory spirit which was now growing up,—a spirit that would redound to the benefit of the country, and which, so far from opposing, they ought, on th e con trary, to do every thing to foster and promote. (Hear.) The Earl of FALMOUTH—I only mentioned the cir cumstance of the success- of the measure in the House of Commous as one of the recommendatory reasons advanced by the Noble Duke. The Earl of HAREWOOD considered a Bill of this nature, a measure coming from the other House, and which was so interesting to a large portion of the popula tion, not only interesting to those who went by the name of Protestant Dissenters, but •to other denominations of Dissenters from the Church of England, called for deli berate consideration, and ought not to be hastily passed. Was this measure brought forward solely on account of the general feeling of the Dissenters throughout the kingdom? Because if it were not, he must look for the cause else where. He might be wrong; but he must "state what he conceived that cause to he, .It was, in his opinion, closely connected with another measure, which involved political considerations of very great importance. He believed that it was with reference to that measure that this question was brought forward at present. , The ques tion, however, for their Lordships' consideration on this oc casion was, whether the present was a satisfactory mea sure. It was brought before their Lordships from the other House of Parliament—that House having, by this Bill, admitted that some declaration was necessary. That fact was placed beyond a doubt by their own proceeding. Now it appeared to him very curious, that in the declaration contained in the Bill, no notice,was taken of this single but important ques tion,—namely, whether a man to whom the declaration was about to be administered was or was not a Christian ? --(Hear, hear.) He should be very sorry to exclude the Dissenters from those privileges which they enjoyed under the Indemnity Bill, and which he was ready to admit they deserved ; but when they came to that House with a new declaration, their Lordships ought to see that it was a proper one. When he looked to the declaration, it ap peared to him to be deficient. In forming a declaration suitable to such a-Bill, it oug ht t o proceed on this simple proposition,—that the man taking it, thereby declared him self to be a believer in Christianity. The answer to this, he knew, was, that it was useless to provide such a test, for persons who did not believe would take any oath that might be propounded to them. But, notwithstand ing that; he did not wish to see a declaration that did not contain some provision of this nature standing on the re cords of Parliament. He wished merely that a clause should be inserted in the declaration, from which it would appear that any man, who took it, believed in the Christian religion. It was not because that be expected any great security from the declaration that he was desirous of hav ing it thus altered—but be wished it so to be worded for the credit of Parliament. The Bishop of LL ANDAFF was of opinion that a test . ciaild easily be formed, which would provide for the per fect security of the Church of England. As to the Church of Scotland, it was, he conceived, perfectly safe as the Bill at present stood. Additions bad been suggested to the declaration, but they did not immediately meet his ideas on the subject ; and he meant, at the proper time, to pro pose such alterations as appeared to hint more likely to effect the object which every declaration - must have in view. The phrase, " the wisdom of our ancestors," had, he thought, on a former night been taken up and animadverted on very inconsiderately : be hoped that this arose from the heat and fervour of the moment. It had been said on that occasion. that the measures which they ware now called to repeal, had been framed and carried in a spirit of violence and faction ; hut he would maintain, on - the contrary, that tbey were -the result of policy and reason, and were rendered necessary by the circumstances of the time.—(Hear.) — Grave and serious attention ought to be bestowed on this measure before it passed into a law. lie spoke more espe cially with reference to the declaration ; but he mentioned this point without meaning to create any discussion on it at present. It would, however, in his opinion, he more satis factory, if the words of the declaration were framed in a style of phrase as nearly Auilar to an oath as possible. The effect of the declaration was to invest certain persons with civil offices, who, unless they took that declaration, would be considered unfit fur them. Therefore they ought, in drawing up the declaration, to take care to provide for the inviolability of that union of Church and State which at present existed ; and therefore he thought it would be proper to call on those taking the test to declare, on the faith of Christians, that they would not endeavour, by the exercise of any power with which their, respective offices might invest them, to interfere with the rights and immu nities of the Church of England. With such a modifieiY.-- Lion, he should approve of the Bill ; and, indeed, he con ceived it essential to its safety. The Earl of HADDINGt ON was anxious that the in violability of the Church of Scotland should be strictly pre served. The Noble and Learned_ Lord (Eldon) had stated that the safety of the Constitution of Great Britain was in timately connected with the safety of the Church of Eng land. He admitted this position in its fullest extent. He felt that the Church of England was an essential part of the Constitution of England ; but he must be all Owed to say, that the Church of Scotland was as much so. B o th churches firmed a part of the Constitution. That, then, being the case, he presumed that, to have omitted the Church of Scotland in this measure, would have been wrong, because it would appear as if, in point of fact, when the inviolability of only one church was noticed, the inviolability of the other was not recognized. The Church of Scotland, however, needed no test; and with respect to that point, he himself would never consent that any test whatever should be imposed with reference to it. Beyond that, be would state his firm belief to he, that the Church of England needed tests just as little.—(Hear.) His opi nion of the Church of England was such as induced him to think that she could as safely exist without tests as the Church of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of ELDON said a few words in explanation. Lord COLCHESTER said he had given his vote most willingly for the second reading of this Bill, and for its proceeding to a committee, because there he thought its merits could best be canvassed. The Dissenters had long, during the existence of the Test and Corporation Acts, been enabled to fill offices in the state by the operation of the annual Bill of Indemnity. By that Bill the original security was waived, and they were admitted to fill offices to which they were not by law eligible. Now he did not at first consider the present declaration to be sufficient, and he confessed that he still continued to be of the same opi nion. It was right that their Lordships should consider how far the declaration was calculated to answer the pur pose for which it was intended. He agreed with the Right Rev. Prelate in the propriety of making the declaration as similar to an oath as possible. He also thought it ivould be proper to revise that clause which gave to th Crown the right of dispensing with the declaration in all 'cases ex cept those which were excepted by the Bill. In Isis opi nion, the Bill ought to specify the small classes of office, the persons accepting of which should not be called on to take the declaration. Unless an amendment were intro duced, going substantively to these two points,—the form of tk: declaration, and the description of persons who would and who would not be required to take it,—he should certainly feel it to be his duty to resist the further progress of the measure. Lori REDESDALE should certainly oppose the Bill ; and his great reason fur doing so was this, that the Consti- . tutfon compelled the King to be a member of the Church of England. He was compelled to take an oath, in which he swore to support the Church of England and Ireland, as by law established, and yet they Were,gbyw:iiseoßwilli about to provide th at ever y one of his Alinister s rnight be of a different church.—(Hear. )---The King pelted to be of the Church of England, but all his confiden tial advisers might profess another faith. This Was suffi cient to warrant his opposition. It was his great obj ec ti on , and he did nut know bow it coul d be removal. The House then went into a Committee on the Bill. When the clause enacting the repeal of certain parts of the 13th and 25th of Charles 11., and certain parts of the Act of the 16th George 11. was read— ' The Earl of ELDON, moved a saving clause, exempting from the necessity of taking the declaration such members of the Church of England, and such Dissenters, as bad taken the Sacrament six months before coming into office, such a ceremonial having, in fact, qUalified then!, they ought not to be considered liable to another test. This would apply to the Mayor or Aldermen of a Corporation, who ought not to he requited to take this deilitiou it going to fill any other office, because they weolready qualified. He could see no reason why individts . who were willing to take the Sacramental test, shoe be re quired to take the new.• Such persons, being metiers of the Church of England, or Dissenters who did roscruple to take the Sacramental test, ought to be allowed under the acts new in force, if they pleased. It ould be left to their op tion. Lord CLARENDON, as we understood, .okted to the proposed amendment. • • Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that of the twernend ments the first was he would say, wholly unneeessr ; thk second would be extremely mischievous. Therwould be no hardship m proposing the inteuded deels*n to persons already qualified for office under the exissg law, and they certainly could have no possible objectiA to the taking of it. The second amendment, howeveiyould be in its effect extremely mischievous. The obje of his Majesty's Ministers, and the object of Parliamen was to preserve the religious peace of the country, and t4O away with those apparent differences which divided ti several religious persuasions in this country. It was le desire and the wish of his Majesty's Ministers to haveuelt dis tinctions abolished, and he trusted that they ould be seconded in their efforts by the decision of that Louse.— (Hear.)—There should be nu distinction in civilffiees be tween Dissenters and Church of England me Both should be equally admitted to office on deelarin&their de termination to support the State and the Constitoon faith fully and loyally. He would entreat their Lord4ps not to mar the object of Parliament in the proposed tnisure, and not to increase the religious distinctions and ditrenees in the country.—(Hear, hear.)—He trusted theyzould put • the Dissenters and the Members of the Church i England upon the same footing, and that the same qualitiation for office would be required from both.. The Earl of HARROWBY agreed with Lcd Ellen borough in considering the first amendment prposed by • the Noble Lord (Eldon) as superfluous, and thenext ex tremely mischievous. The Noble Lord had sad that it would be a hardship to require from person. who had already taken the sacramental test, a new didaration in the shape of another test. But that test nerdy consisted of a declaration, to which those who liar already taken the sacramental test could have no possibe objection, - but to which they would be most ready and willing to sub scribe. The other portion of the Nobe Lord's amend ment would-be most mischievous in is tendency, as it was calculated to maintain those itvidious distinctions which it was the object of the Bill to emove and dissipate. The Earl of ELDON said his ornament would apply not only to members of the church of England and to Dis senters—who had, previous to the passing of this Act. already qualified for office, by takitg the sacramental test within the 12 months preceding—hit also to such members of the church of England as had taken the sacrament in the discharge of their religious (baits. Thisamendment went to except all persons who had, oy thus taking thli sacra ment, given the strongest proof of their confbrmity with the church of England. The Bishop of CHESTEE most sincerely hoped that the amendments of the Nobleand Learned Lord would not be agreed to. To those anendments he (the Bishop of Chester) was strongly opposed; and he could not refrain from expressing his surprite that some consideration for his consistency did not Orcrate to prevent the Noble Lord from proposing them.— . —(Flear.) The Noble Lord had al ready declared that he supported the sacramental test as the means of keeping the Dissenters out of office. Now, however, he states that many Dissenters do take the test as a qualification for office, and he proposes to except such Dissenters from the declaration contained in the Bill before the House. There were two principles whicll lie should like to see how the Noble Lord could reconcile. The Noble Lord would he content with the taking of the. sacra ment as a proof of the sincerity of the Church of England man, and he would include in his exception the Dissenter, who merely took that sacrament as the means of qualifying for office, and not as an expression of his conformity to the communion of the Church of England. The principle of the present Bill—a principle to Which be (the Bishop of Chester) should give his decided support—was to prevent the mingling of the solemn rite of the sacrament with the qualification for worldly employment. The Earl of ELDON would recommend the Rev. Pre- late to attend to his own consistency rather than to the talking about that of others. He (Lord Eldon) had at least been as consistent as the Rev. Prelate ou this subject, and he would take care to be so to the end. He did not know whether the present Bill applied to the Ecclesiastical Corporations; indeed he believed the framers of it were themselves ignorant whether it went to that extent. If it did apply to Ecclesiastical - Corporations, the Rev. Prelate opposite, in being promoted, as he (Lord EldOn) thought it very likely he would be in the course of time, to a certain high and permanent station in the Church, would be obliged to take the declaration prescribed by this Bill belbre he could be admitted. The Bishop of CHESTER did not consider it fair in the Noble Lord to put an'hypothesis which was no a fact, and to argue upon a ease which could nut happen under the existing laws. He would advise the Noble Lord to found his reasonings upon something more tangible and snore to the purpose: Such a course would be more consistent with the discharge of his duty, and would be more likely, perhaps, to attain his object. The Earl of ELDON. begged the Rev. Prelate would abstain front thus gratuitously tendering his advice. He had advised him (Lord Eldon) to mind his duty, but he should not offend the Rev. Prelate by advising hint as to the mode in which he should discharge his duty. The Bishop of LICHFIELD said, the Noble Earl • (Eldon) would except from the proposed Declaration al! such :Members of the Church of England, as well as Dissenters, who had taken the Sacrament according to the rites of the Established Church. But many Members of the Church of England might have taken the Sacrament in the discharge of their religious duties, whereat, to qua .. _ _ _ . lift' for office, it must be taken for that especial purpose, and before certain magisterial functionaries. Therefore, many of the persons whom the Noble Earl would except by his amendment, would not actually, under the existing law, have qualified themselves for office. He was opposed to the Noble Lord's amendment. The Aniendment was then put and negatived. On the question being put, upon the first clause, Lord REDESDALE - rose to object to it. He did not think that the security which it proposed at all sufficient. Indeed, it was perfectly ridiculous. From experience lie would say, that in his opinion the declaration would be entirely nugatory and of no avail. (Cries of " Order.") The CHAIRMAN informed the Noble Lord, that the question now was upon the first clause of the Bill, and that they had not as yet CONIC to the second clause, which contained the declaration. Lord REDESDALE begged their Lordship? pardon. His objection, however, to that clause, was applicable to the whole Bill. By the Act of Settlement, they bound the Prince upon the throne by oath to maintain the Pro testant establiShment, and at the same time by this Bill they would leave every officer under the Sovereign free to pro fess what religion lie pleased. Could there be greater ab surdity in legislation ? . _ The question was then put upon the first clause, and carried. The second clause having been read by the Chair►nan, The Duke of WELLINGTON proposed as an amend ment, that after the words in the declaration—" I, A. 8., do solemnly," the following be 'introduced, " and sin cerely, in the presence of God, prof6s, testify, and" — The Bishop of LLANDAFF rose to propose as an ad ditional amendment, that after the word " and," and be fore the word " declare," there be introduced the words " upon the faith of a Christian." The principle of the measure, his Lordship said, was to admit persons to office who dissented from the communion of the Church of England. Now he did not conceive it sufficient to require from such persons, when entering upon office, to declare that they would ■se none of the influence of which they might become possessed in virtue of that office to injure, or weaken, or subvert the Established Church. lle was of opinion that they should be further required, as every mag►strate was called upon in entering office, to promise to discharge the duties of it, to snaintaiu and uphold the rights and privileges of the Established Church whenever in danger. Ile would therefore propose, as a further amendment of the declara tion, that after the word "entitled," at the end of the de claration, the subscriber to it be further called' upon to say, under the solemn sanction already imparted to the declara tion—" and that I do, as far as concerns the duties of the add office, respect and maintain the rights and privileges of the Established Church of these realms." The Earl of CLARENDON reminded the Rev. Prelate that one amendment should be disposed of before they pro ceeded to the discussion of another. That proposed by the-Noble Duke of Wellington had the precedence. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, it would be com petent in the Rev. Prelate either to move his amendment as an amendnient upon the amendment proposed by the Duke of Wellington ; or, if he had no objection to that amend ment, he could postpone his proposition until that amend ment had been disposed of. The Bishop of LLANDAFF entirely concurred in the amendment proposed by the Noble Duke. • Lord HOLLAND said the amendinents should be taken in point of precedence; one by . one. Though he (Lord Holland) was not willing to change the declaration as it stood in the Bill, yet he was perfectly ready to agree with the' Noble Dike>+ amendment, which introduced no mate vial alteration into it. Lord ELDON'proposed that the word " swear" he sub ' stituted for the word " declare," and that the subscriber to the declaration be further required to state that he was a Christian, and that be believed that the Scriptures, the Old and New Testaments, as received by the Protestant Churches . , contained the_ revealed word of God. These who took the oath of abjuration were obliged to profess themselves Christians ; but this Bill required no such pro fession, and it merely mentioned the rights and privileges of the Established Church. lie would like to know, from those best calculated to give theta information on the sub ject, what those rights and privileges were. If the sub scriber were required, not merely to maintain the rights and privileges of the Established Church, but the rights and privileges of the Bishops and Clergy of that Church, then he (Lord Eldon) could • well understand what was meant. But the phrase as it at present stood was per fectly unintelligible to him. Lord TENTERDEN said, the amendment proposed by the Noble Duke (Wellington) should be considered sepa rately front the other amendments, and decided. upon its own merits.—(Hear.) As that amendment was calculated to give greater solemnity to the declaration, he (Lord Ten terden) was prepared to vote for it. As for the declara tion itself, it required Much amendment, and he hoped a far different one would be required.—(Hear.) The amendment proposed by the Duke of WELLINGTON was then put amiagreed to. The Bishop of LLANDAFF then proposed, that after the word " declare," the words " upon the faith of a Christian," be introduced. The Earl of ELDON claimed precedence in point of order for his amendment. He moved that the word "swear" he substituted for " declare." The Bishop of LLANDAFF was about addressing the House, when Earl GREY rose to order. The amendment respecting the word " declare" should be discussed and decided ,be fore those proposed by the Rev. Prelate. The Bishop of LLANDAFF said, that in proposing the introduction of the words " upon the faith of a Chris tian;" he wished to meet the objection to the declaration as it at present stood—namely, that it could be taken by those who were'not Christians at all. Now the introduc tion of the word swear did not appear to him to obviate that object ion, for any inn` might swear. After a few words from Lord TEsTXRDEN, the ques tion was put from the, Chair upon Lord Eldon's amend ment substituting " swear" for " declare." - • Lord ELLENBOROUGH entreated the House not to be led away thus by theproposal of amendment after amend ment, until the declaration should be entirely and com pletely altered.—(Hear, hear.)—The Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Llandaff) first proposed the introduction of the words " upon the faith of a Christian," and then he wanted to require from the Dissenters accepting office, a pledge not merely that they would not employ their influ ence to injure or weaken the Established Church, hut that they would maintain and support the Church of England. Would it not be preposterous to require such a pledge from the Dissenters? For the last 80 years they had been admitted to office under the Annual Indemnity Bill, with out taking the sacramental test, and what protection did the Church of England require during that period against them ? They should not he placing the Dissenters now under difficulties and subjecting them to a control uncalled for and undeserved, and casting a suspicion upon them which should never be entertained.—(Hear, hear.) — This was a measure of conciliation : its object. was to establish religious peace in the country, and it was one well merited by the Dissenters, who had uniformly ex hibited the greatest zeal and loyalty in support of the Con stitution. —( Hear. )—lt was a measure of grace, and should be attended with confidence instead of distrust.—(Hear.) — He objected to the amendment introducing the words— " upon the faith of a Christian" as unnecessary. There were very few, he trusted, in this country, who would ob ject to the taking of it; but it went to show a suspicion which was not justified, and therefore it should be rejected. —(Hear.)—The Act of the 9th and 10th of William and Mary already provided against any danger which the Rev. Prelate might imagine would arise from persons not pro fessing the Christian religion obtaining possession of office. Under that Act, any person who, by writing, or otherwise, expressed his disbelief in the Christian religion, er in the authority of the Sacred Scriptures, might be deprived of his office. Therefore, any additional precaution on that head was quite unnecessary. He disliked the alterations now proposed, as they went to change the healing character of the measure, and he therefore trusted they would be re jected.-(Hear.) ' The Bishop of LLANDAFF explained. The Earl of MALMESBURY, although he had objec tions to the ordinary application of so solemn a service as the Sacrament for civil purposes, yet be was ready to make the substituted declaration as strong as it could conveni ently be rendered, for the satisfaction of those who felt its protection necessary. lie was quite ready to get rid of the objectionable parts of these acts, and to adopt in their place, an adequate declaration ; and he really wished to have it framed strong enough to exclude Uuitar:aus from eligibility to office, because he did not think they tendered the same belief in Christianity which other sects affirmed. Not being willing to see that class of persons in office, he certainly should vote for any test which would have the effect of keeping them out. Lord TENTERDEN did not think that a sufficient die tinctiou bad been drawn between the principle and the object of the Test and Corporation Acts. Ile explained the circumstances out of which these Acts sprung, and thought that while those who had to govern corporate towns should he obliged to conform to the leading doc trines of the established church, the same narrow ground of qualification need not be required from the general classes who were called upon by virtue of the Test Act. The Earl of HARROWBY thought that the distinction between the principle and object of the two Acts could be better discussed in a future stage of the Committee, than upon the present clause. He, for one, could certainly not conceive what danger could arise to the State from leaving the Bill with the original clause ; nor could he apprehend the additional value of the proposed substitute to counter act such a dagger, if any should happen to arise. He was fortified in this opinion by the conduct of the Legislature, not at any one particular period under a sudden exigency, but during'an uninterrupted series of years, when they had uniformly interposed to suspend these Acts, and thereby manifested their indisposition to believe that any danger arose to the church from thi s cons id era t e protect i on o f the great body of the Dissenters. A Right Reverend Prelate had re-stated what lie (Lord Harrowby) believed to be an historical mistake, respecting the origin of these statutes—namely, that they were originally in tended to exclude from civil office all who were not bona file members of the church of England. This was certainly not the fact, for in the Parliament immediately after the restoration,- as the Reverend Prelate had him self admitted, 52 out of 54. Dissenters were said to have taken the sacrament after the form of the church of England. Ile owned that when he looked to the recorded inutility of the existing Test Laws, his first impression when he beard of this Bill was, that the better course would be a total re peal, without any substitute. The object being religion, peace, and mutual harmony among religious sects, he thought the surest way of securing so desirable an object would be, by the unequivocal display of confidence and li berality on the part of,those who weroconferrhag the boon. ses(Hear.)—As a member of the Church of England, -sin cerely professing and pra c tising it s f a ith; . and believing that times were in: which it had occasionally rested its existence.and security on mere secular support, instead of reposing its strength upon the higher and nobler grounds of its pure apostolical doctrines and enlightened‘creed— (Hear),—he was most anxious on this occasion to see the more liberal, and what he felt the better, course adopted. At the same time he Would lean 'to the accommodation of the opinions of others, and not refuse any reasonable con cession to sooth and allay individual differences. These tests had been miscalled bulwarks ; and if any reasonable substitute were agreed upon, which though it really af forded no buttress to the fortress, yet appeared to answer the same end as the old qualification, it should' have his support, provided, however, that it did not fritter away the grace of this measure to the Dissenters, and prevent their accepting itwith joy and delight, or make it a quei tion among them, after what they had passed, whether or not they had received a boon when this Act should haVe been enacted for them.—(Hear.)—In looking at the ori ginal Test, and that proposed in its room, they ought to be gin by comparing the relative value of the two stipulations. The sacrament was one, and a declaration the other. What was the force of the former ? What in fact did a man profess upon taking the sacrament? He certainly made a solemn declaration to God ; but so far as his obliga tion referred to the civil concerns of this world, it was very incomplete. It was really unwise to attach so much importance to forms which the Legislature bad been compelled, from its own sense of reason and justice, to permit to repose in slumber, as far as the Dissenters were concerned. He thought, on the whole, that the declara tion, as given by the Bill, gave the fullest assurance which it was possible by any other form of avowal to obfaiti, and in a way the least objectionable to those whose feelings they professed a desire to consult on the present occasion ; while the obligation proposed as a substitute for it went to afford the Church a degree of enjoined support, for which it was not thought necessary to call in any of the other great institutions of the country. What necessity was there for evincing ;lily desire to carry their appre-. bensions to that length, in defiance of the experience which they had of the value of conciliation and . the diffusion of goodwill among all classes of Christians' Surely they had already oaths enouvb upon the statute 1,061 c, without seeking in this manner to add to the number. —(Hear.)—ln every view which he could take of the subject, be saw no necessity for the proposed amendment of the Bill which had been sent up to their Lordships' House. The Bishop of Duni'Am defended the Clergy of the Established Church from any excessive proneness to sect: the aid of the secular arm. However, if they were al. together to abandon the benefit of that security, they might as well be :it once without the enactment of the various statutes which had fenced round the Established Church. With respect to the question before them, he knew that many persons were alarmed at the omission in the Bill of any thing like a strong profession of Chris tianity. This objection ought certainly to he removed. The Earl of HARROWBY protested, that nothing was further from his intention than to say any thing which could excite an unpleasant sensation in the mind of any Member. of the Reverend Bench. He tlrought in what he had said he had Sufficiently guarded himself against any such imputation, It ought not to be supposed, that in saying that the amendments proposed were so nume rous and so various, that it appeared as if they were pro posed with no other intention than to defeat the Bill, that he was making any reflection on the Reverend Bench, especially as only one of the Amentlinents which had been proposed came . from that quarter. He never meant to impute , to the Reverend Bench that they had any wish to defeat this Bill. He declared his solemn belief that they had no such intention. Such an intention would be opptfsed to the enlightened and liberal sentiments which had been expressed by many and concurred in by all the members of that bench. He owed an apology to their Lordships, if in the course of his observations he had said any thing which-appeared to them derogatory to the high situation which they held in the Church. All that he had intended to do was to express his regret that the Church had in some instance depended ton much upon the securer arm of the State, and too little upon the strength and veracity of its doctrines,—an observation Which he be lieved had found an echo in the breast of every man who heard him. The Earl of CARNARVON, though anxious to give the Reverend Bench every reasonable satisfaction, could not refrain from reminding them, that if they would listen to every suspicion which ingenuity would discover for them, they would make this measure not a measure of peace, but a measure of religious animosity and discord. The ques tion which the'e: Lordships were now called upon to decide was, whether they should introduce an oath instead of a de claration into the Bill now before them. Now it appeared, to him, that their Lordships had already virtually de cided that question by agreeing to that part of the clause, which called upon every person taking office under his Majesty, to • sign a declaration. The Bill itself was intended as a measure of religious peace ; but it would. not retain that character if it made it incumbent upon indivi duals to say, "I swear" so and so, instead of " I declare" so and so. He hardly knew whether a Bill which bad been introduced into the House that Session for the purpose of conferring relief in certain cases on Quakers, had pas.ed through the House or not ; but if it had, it would be ren dered nugatory by the substitution of the words " I swear" for " I- declare ;" for as their religious tenets prevented them from swearing, those words would effectually exclude them front any office of trust and importance. Independently of this objection of substituting an oath for a declaration, there was much force in the argument which had been so well put by the Noble Earl opposite, that in the various laws whirls the House had already made, it had gone much too far in the multiplication of useless and unnecessary oaths. Their Lordships had made men so familiar with oaths, that they took them • without even listening to them, as they were mumbled over by a clerk, who generally read them in such a manner as if he was anxious that they should not be understood. - From their youth upwards, men were perpetually called upon to take one sort of an oath or another. At college, they swore to oaths which were either dead letters or absolute nonsense; and day after day the Legislature went on multiplying oaths, with out increasing the security either of Church or State. The real question, however, for their Lordships' considera tion was simply this—is not a solemn declaration, in the face of God, equivalent to an oath ? He called upon their Lordships to consider what was the•security, if indeed it were one, which the legislature bad provided against the Roman Catholics. It was the declaration against transub stantiation—for there were many conscientious Roman Ca tholics who would take the oath of abjuration, but whb would nnt make the declaration against transubstantiation. If, then, that declaration was the principal, if not the only security, whichaleprived the Roman Catholic's of the rights and privileges epjoyed by their fellow-subjects, why should it now be deet.ed necessary to introduce into the Bill a word which would 'exclude front the benefit of it one of the mildest and most beneficent sects of the British Em. pire ? He would not detain their Lordships by makin ; ;; any remarks on the other parts of this Bill. This, how ever, be would say, that the less you cavil against this mea sure, which was already strong enough * for all practical purposes, and which was intended to be a substitute for the security provided by these Acts; which were now admitted on all hands to be mere dead letters, the more will you do away with the gracious effect of your last debate, which had been more conducive to the establishment of religious harmony between the Church and the Dissenters, than any other event which he had known in the whole course of his political life. He should certainly - give his vote in favour of the words " 1 declare," and against the introduction of the words "I swear." The Bishop of CHESTER expressed himself more favourable to inserting a declaration titan to inserting an oath in this BilL ThC declaration in question was to be made in the presence of Altnighty God, and be could not see that there was more in an oath than in such a decla ration. The Earl of ELDON shortly replied, but in so low a tone of voice'as to be almost inaudible below the bar. We understood bins to say; • that as their Lordships called on the King in his Coronation Oath to swear to maintain the Church, and the Bishops, and the Clergy, in their 'due rights and privileges, it was only fitting that they should call upon all subjects who held office under him to take the same oath. He doubted whether this measure would be what its proposers called it—a measure of religious peace. The acts . which it sought to repeal better deserved that appellation, for on the one hand they were confirma tory of the supremacy of the Church, and on the other they held out an indemnity to all Dissenters, in all cases where such indemnity could safely be afforded them. One objection which he felt to this Bill was, that it gave a dis pensing power to .the Crown, and would leave it to his Majesty to determine whether any. of the persons who held offices of trust under him s hould take either decla ration or oath. He called upon their Lordship, whatever might be the consequences, to do justice to the Consti tution in their conduct regarding this Bill. He had heard it said with surprise and regret, that oaths had of late years been so multiplied by the Legislature that they now went for nothing. He could not bring him self to believe that there was any foundation for such an assertion. He had a firm persuasion that, with some few Miserable exeeptions, an oath had a mighty effect upon the consciences of Englishmen.. After a long life spent in the administration of the justice of the cou nt ry , h e f e l t him self bound to say that nothing could b e more d angerous to the morality of the community than to bear Noble Lord s i n their places in Parliament publicly dispara ge th e e ff ec t o f an oath by comparing it with that of a declaration. Fie was of opinion, that as an oath was much more solemn in its nature, it ought in this case to be preferred to a decla ration. In his opposition to this Bill, he protested that he was governed by nothing else than. a sense of what was due from him to the country of which he was a subject; and acting upon that sense of duty, he felt himself bound not to lend his assistance to depriving his fellow-subjects of the constitution which they had so long enjoyed. On these grounds he bad met the Bill with a decided negative ; but as the House had decided by its vote that the Bill should be read' a second time, he was now desirous of making it as innocuous as possible. The Bishop of BATH and WELLS voted for the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, in the expectation that the repeat of them would promote peace and good under standing between the Church and the Dissenters. He trusted that the Bill for the repeal of them would be so framed as to render it a boon, for which the Dissenters might feel some gratitude. For that reason he would ra ther have a declaration than an oath inserted in the Bill.— There was only only one alteration that he wished to he made in the declaration as it now stood. He would add, after the words of the declaration, the followirig words, h, the name of Jesus Christ." He though t that no off ence could be taken at those words by any conscientio us Dis senter. It would be shameful if any person wh o took office in a Christian country s hould be reluctant to declare publicly that he was a Christian. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was desirous of addres sing a few words to their Lordships on the motion then under their consideration.- He was of the same opinion with the Noble Earl who hid spoken early in the debate, and indeed with every Noble Lord who had since addressed them, that it was almost impossible to l oo k at t hi s amen d- Ment without looking todem intuitu at the amendMenb and elauses which they knew would very shortly be sub- t mitted to their discussion. He naU,t extend his vie.W 6. the subject to the general character of the remedy which they Were now p rov idi ng , no t so muc h to meet any set° danger, as to show not only to this House, but also to the country, to the church, aed to the Dissenters, that thoei spirit iu which thi s ac t o f re li e f was conceived, was one mere relief to the Dissenter, without intending to take o n jot either from the strength or the security, or, he 'nigh' even add, the perpetuity, of the church of England' —ln approaching this subject, he felt relieved in r°' fleeting that lie was not in the present stage of the proceeding called upon to argue whether it was fitting v . ' retain upon the statute-book Acts which - their Lo d 1 ships annually recognized, but which they were calls!'. upon to recognize only to avert the mischief:" which, ' not corrected, they would of necessity produce,--0 which they had never noticed for 100 years, except to arr ° l and nullify, not to further and protect the Op era tion ° , their enactments. He felt relieved, he said, in reflector that be was not called upon to contend that the holiest rite of our religion was not the most fitting key that c ould b r selected to open the door to civil employment. He 'Ci l happy to find that it appeared to h e th e genera l opinion °i their Lordships to do away with securities so urinecests!l and so useless as were those provided in the Acts who" this Bill intended to repeal ; and he would therefore tai' s that opportunity of stating, that so far from its being . sudden thought So bring on a discussion on these MO ° answer the purposes of a certain party in Church and Stat e ' it had for Years past been an object for which Vi la Dissenters had been preparing, and for which their pr e parations bad produced a just and beneficial effa t ' After several observations on the beneficial cosy quences of the repeal of the Test Act in Ireland, the Noble Marquis proceeded as follows ;—" I must bar e protest, my Lords, against what I can never hear with pin and surprise—that th ese ac t s o f exc l us i on are p a rt!' f of the Constitution. lam one of those, my Lords, who ea n a never subscribe to any suc h d oc t r i ne . Ki ng , L or d s , O A slon g admit, parts of o m f ee t t h s e w eo ith nst t i h t e u i t r ion s , pp ar o, church,s C o ol i z s n tre s,are,l a bation and support.' 'But are the means which devise for the support of the Constitution, part of w e d Constitution itself? Th e y ma y b e necessary or they 10.' be not—they may be rejected or they may b e n ot/ they vary according to times gel circumstances, 8 7 , cording to the feelings, the prejudiCeS, and I Will e v e n a d d+ principles of men. But th ere i s one p r i n cipl e o f v ,., ' Constitution which never varies; there is one principle U a it, which I may call its fundamental and pervading pri d , ciple, and that is, that every subject of the realm is a i miscible to every office Within it. Th e Noblelitif Learn Lord, and those with whom b e h as ac t e d, hire in Cow: , of their public career, been guilty—perhaps,'lteceesar i u guilty of several innovations upon the Conititntion, be : cause they seemed them expedient to its safety. ' They 0 troduced the Convention Bill—they suppOrted theStispen ; sion of the habeas corpus, an d p er h aps th ey did b o th, 0° without reason. Now, I will venture to say, that if o° ' fortunately it had been necessary to continue those men r ; sures to the present time, the 'N o bl e an d L ea r ne d Lc' would be the la s t man i n th e country to say , t h at b ec ause they were necessary to secure the' Constitution, they ther e fore formed part of the CoostitutiOn. I must alitasof° your Lordships, that I cannot go the length of the Re'", Prelate tcho addressed us early in the evening, and who we are all so happy to see among us; I cannot, I say, sig e : with him that in adopting this Bill we are adinitting, new principle into the Con s tituti on . ' Th e principle oftt!' constitution, as I before stated, is, that every subject P admissible to office,—that principle may, 'I allow, be le' gaily and legitimately suspended ; but when we renl°';' the suspension, we revert to the ancient, the fundameot e 4 and the immutabl e p r i nc i p l e o f t h e C on s t i t ution,- t hat who tender allegiance to the'state are admissible to e' e n ' office of trust and auth o rity in the . State.--tdbeers.) I. ' Noble and Le a r n ed L or d lik ew i se te ll s you th a t you er" , compelled to substitute for this test of the sacrament,' 811 oath, or something that shall be equivalent to it; becsu' e si , you have a ri g ht t o d eman d t h at f rom - t h e obit' which, by a solemn compact, you -demand fmn a : the King. Now I tell yo u th a t it is e xactly b ecaus e )I s -- impose upon the King an oath to maintain the c hurclh! rights and privileg b es, that you are left at liberty to cbr e pense with it as far as regards others. . Th e Ki ng is VP Head of the Church, and 'must therefore be in strict c 0 0 1 ." munion with it. In that very circumstance, my..Lor'l gem find a security for th e Ch u r c h on ly i n f er i or t o tb s f i which you derive from the opinion in which it is held, as which, I trust, you Will always find its best sa,fcg. o '; against assault. and injury—a security far superior to a n y Which it may derive from oaths, or declarations, or te a , tst sor any thing, which a n y Legislature can devise for' its d e " a j the ' e ti c ie hurhof, estimation Eii.g 7d reverence fence. oaths, When most 'eMeacithis,; asie s laut frail an d P t P l:a i : impregnable n h v a g p o p a y b I t e o s s a t y t artificial props te'recleiiastiCaleStablishmepte s . Their zol 0 f: which they are held by the great mass .of, the people. ,' the opinion and the reverence of 'the people; and that tka; • reverence, arid that that opinion is much increased by " 4 conduct which the Bishops of the . Church haye",pursa', on this occasion, and' which appears as a pledge of.r ee ' on their part to every sect of dissenting Christians. (Ilear.)—The Noble Marquis then proceeded to absei l ' that he was most anxious to adopt the clause in such . atb ra' as would best reconcile it both to the. Church of Eti iaiid flourishes :P it land and to the Dissenters at large. Ile cede that the amendment of the Noble Dula in ;tit Pr e emit form, presented the fairest pledge of its characte r ' He did not see any reason for adding to the declaratio n the words—" in the name of Jesus Christi" ate many oat hs must now be taken on the faith of a Christian-by-any per' son who aspired to high and important office. He s o °', ceived the simplicity, of the declaration to be much in i' favour, and he could not conceive of what staff his coo' science could be made, who could make a distinction be' tween taking an oath to support the -Church, anda sole declaration iu the face 'of God not to assail it. ' 'lf there were any such men in existence, against them - Acts e ( Parliament w o u ld be of no f or c e . Th e y cou ld o nly be ro , down by the indignation which would burst upon, then' whenever their acts exposed the laxity of their principle' It would be vain to expect to catch such miscreants witlliha the nets of or di nar y l eg i s l a ti on; th e y wou ld breaktbsPufr them with difficulty, and would only laugh at our effort' to embarrass and annoy them. For these reasons b e ( cordially joined with the Rev. Prelate on the other , side 0 the House, in declaring that he preferred the declaratio ° to the oath, because it had all the security of an oath, with' out causing that mischievous multiplication' of , oatle against which it was incumbent that the Legislature should guard, when they were not necessary for the secti' rity of the Church. In concluSion, he stated his convic' tion that unless this Bill passed at present, it would 13 ' made year after year a ground of disturbing the religio o peace and harmony of the community. The Committee then divided, when there appeared-- For Lord Eldon's Amendment Against it . 100 • Majority - 7 --65, The amendment was then lost, and the. words "1 des (dare" were continued in the clause. On our re-entering the House, a considerable number of their Lordships were standing around the table listening V ° another amendment proposed by the Duke. of Wellington' which the Earl of SITAFTEsBURY, as Chairman, of the committee, was reading to them. .We understood that i t called upon the person making the declaration to,deels° his belief in the different books of the Old 'and Neii Teets' went, as received by authority in the Protestant' elanicitee The Archbishop of YORK ospressed his satiisfsolia n that the words " I swear" were not insertedin the' clause' He hoped that the Dissenters would receive V the . Bill,Whe o it passed, in the same spirit of kindness in which it tree granted. A confused conversation then took place between several Noble Lords across the woolsack, of whieli Ititrehid be quite impossible to give any report. In the midst 4 it. The Earl of MANSFIELD rose and pro Posed thht the declaration s hould run in this form, " I declare in the foo t of God, and in the name of his son our Saviour Neu° Christ." The Earl of LAUDERDALE could not see the near city for making a man declare his belief in . the booksof the Old and New Testament, as received by' authority. ' D ig' pUteS would arise among the different sects of Protestiiitst as to what was meant by the terms " by authority."' The Duke of WELLINGTON said a few words in esc' planation ; but they were inaudible below the bar. The Bishop of LINCOLN hoped that the Noble Ear l would not press thssclause of which be had just given notice ' to' a division, because it would place several of their Lord' ships in the invidious situation of appearing to dissent fool, a prop os iti on , i n t h e abstract propriety of which they a ll concurred. If it were necessary tcsintroduce thessalr e of the second Person in the Trinity into the declaration , why were they to omit the name of the third, whil i was equally sacred ? It was his opinion, that in aO l of this nature, they ought above all things to avoid dogni a " tizing upon points of faith.—(Great cheering.)—This (l e " claration would serve for Christians of every sect and.dee°- mination ; and it would satisfy every rational friend Of tb ° church, if those admitted to office under the Constitution were to make this declaration solemnly in the face of : PI and to declare their belief in the Scriptures received by a Protestant churches. ' • The Earl of MANSFIELD—I cannot consent to soSI, draw this addition to the word s . of th e sniginal d.estlerat i°P• My avowed object is to exclude from office all those Pe:, M - 441 S who falsely—and, indeed, I may add, abettrdly—° tilem%clve Christ, the declai cleclav is our Savie fence to a• trines oft The Ez Ned to h