The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-08 00:00:00

' ic, I" )11gb (71 bit It guitulY COM' Oil 13 111 g • hit 'VC tu- mang ►easitre.. le wa o pro ut why S to iad (le' ss erte 4 Ing erl ins er%ViSO) t 110 F iemtnt,• untry• better :titring rid C°' ; pit 11 1 rate "r 'of Ire' e pia'• SO' if ii° dot Yr . I CoIU 1-101 1 . , of the would >hid b° of iota C0 111 : 1 , st.con"' „ r uble !„ pro wer ogi• up tlkd office"' . v :NM as tk r peopl6 f ltem" - IO"n- re 0 MO fit?' Wale? ion er, 1111 8114 i,hrl l y 15 0 " coifil nO 5l nrar g ,reg en g eft' tqd 4 • it 11 1 ` " % ( ji teinTnriv tD a inn . re strict Conformity wit's I L ' 3 0117 n id„ s propose, that htter rd " Stew art ry," ;e inserted , or t wenl y free -1," ° ll ers of the co-uty, having freehold property the value of ItAl. per annum." Tire question was then pot by the Chairpan; neon• , .re, which Mr. MAXWELL, thought, that as there was a /11( le difference between the otfic, of Sheriff in entland and in England, anti in other trspeos 4 .there was no Grand Jury, the Lutd liiot • repr esen t ma that body in Scotland, and very til "w of the faciliii e s.enjoyed England calling ev.eriugs [ruder the restrictious of toe preset Rill, , t ;ould he advisable to insert, a'ter the word §tewartry," "or ten persons hoar their 1 4 alifications are entitled to be Commissioners of ' Upon the question being pot, CASTLEREAGH said, that the principle of th e Ressent Bill was to place meetings or large "libels under the regulation of the Constituted ii iithbriti e s. He 'conceived that either of the two 4 ,,. 4l endrnents ti n,v,peoposeit tended to defeat this u rri nciple. It was the assemblage of large ritas...es i t he population of the country that hid drive, th e,Leeislature to contemplate the iutroduction should obtain the responsibility of .Constituted Authorities, as a g t narantee for le security of the country tinder all popular meet ; and where, he Witold ask, was this security b e found, if any twenty freeholders of 1001. a pea t ' should ' have the 'power of calling county t ?eelin gs ? Wbat;plZ;dge would the country have 1 'at th e ft-eel:ol4p ot _York would not lend them [elves to the assembly of 100,000 men, at too. 'tots tel • ti►epeople mii-ht i n a state bor t!. IP! :ring or, rebellion, or unfortunately in a state of _tbellion itself i—(llear, beer 1)—If meetings ' Ve re,cOlifined to their proper parishes, they would memselves be of sufficient security ; but he was Il re the Noble Lord (Compton) dul not mean to Pi that he thought that ii periods of popular . t i pontent there would not be found in the county York, or ally other county, t welt , y frt eholders *1,;; would not be ready to put at stake toe trait • ~'t ill i+y of _the county, by conntenanci(g such 1 4t eiings. , The Noble Lord concluded by deelar )llg that if either of their AmendMents were ad ;lute(' into - the Bill, they would go to render, it ongatory. I ‘ ll . J. P. GRANT thought that in times of (lan; .7,: r ther e wo u ld not be'tound twenty *Gentlernen ' l OOl. a year, freehold property, who would lend 1 1 441 `elves to call meetings which five Justices of 't Pea ce could not be found to Call. He believed v ka t 1001 a year was the qualification reqoiretllot -4Utiontissitmer of Supplies. The Noble Lurd I;o".4stlereagli) wished, no doubt, that there should no meeiings but what took place under the r)4,troj of the Law officers. 'rite Sheriff in Scot ;Aid Was an Of fi cer for life, chosen by the Crown, . 1 7d on hi s wa y tOtliO3etich.. Scotch Berroughs, e Officeys aho govern the Corporation had no t 14 flexion withthe' people ; they elected one 4, 14 "-Iler.; and he conretided, that if the petition 1 that ifouse were to d'epentlitu these offiners, it told be next to taking away the right of petition a it . (!gether. t t .Lold NottmANBY spoke against the amendment ''Po se d by Lord Crinipton. flie LORD ADVICATE of SCOTLAND declared his 1 1 "iiuti that tlie teas folly adequate for Scot . ; ti t '''. Ile appealed to the knowledge of any Gen. ethan in the louse,ouse, if he knew ot'any . Couvener tf • 11 :Coi;nly, who hail 'eyer,rFfusul et', calla meet ig "ben he Waa requiced..---(llear !) f t , Mr• MANSFIELD was of opinion, that there `, 4441 .he no occasion for thu .Bill• at all, if the ti I "endment of Abe .Noble Lord (Compton) was I ° Pied. The respectable part of the . conwittnity nired to .6,,, vru ni ne ut for strottg measures.— ar. clit ll I 'nt'el • 1• LT H OEP.E ohserved, that 1001. a year was StlPi. tent qualification fOr a Just ice of the PeaCe, V 14 ,1 e saw ito reason why,five of them should be iC"ed.tn preference to .five trecholders . possessiog bt "ante qualifications.—(Cheers) A Trott . e : -GENERAL 7 - ''.!it distinction between a Freeholder of 1001: i ti Year anti a Magistraie j the former could not ask ihat simple stialifintion to be put in the Com- ZlatiO n o f the Peace, With respect to the Amend ttit bef o re the-House, he declared that it struck V i ectly at the principle of the Bill : and if the 1 1 , t 'use agreed to it, kt .might as well not pass the KENNUDY Ob3C,Xveri, that there was no t tl slos:Rolulotum in .Scotland, and that the Lord B ert on being military Offl r was not the ce , iser loo on whom the-people couldarely with confi der, t ee for calling meetings of the Count': to dis :4 grievances. The functions of the Sheriff, in t i ti n`gtluence', preserved_ a distinct litre ; he was l i e supreme j u dge in-all civil and criminal cases N Ntteve r ant' naturally looked to the Crown for , il 'W i item • • 'i l on in ins profession. The Con,%!ener did fi l en:call County Meet iugs u but it was front prac- Nf e i hot .hy.authority. of . the law. He coincided v lt h Iris Hon. Friend in thinking that persons 4 461 i4ed to be Commissioners of Supplies in 'Scot ,. L I, ought to have power of convttiting meetings. DENMAN, in reply to what'hal fallen front •1 1 : 110 14 and Learned Friend, the Attorney-Ge -41, wept through a ttain of arguments, to •rto, i tit ,t that the Bill ought to be considered as an --elibi•lngement on the rights and liberties of the eet, rather than a protection to them. 4 (1 BaNyoti spoke against the amendment. — w as not true that the_ Sheriffs of Counties in 4 1 ,. ° , ti alltd, were always looking to the Crown for ieratent ; and even supposing they were. he t ro n°t see how !fiat should incapacirate diem Z'hm-the hon e st discharge of their other duties.— ,s )f j yonvener was elected h the Commissioners 4 PPIy, who represented the whoie property of .1 4 , e6 httly. He did not think that five iklagis qi‘eB could ever be found, who shon.ld be such li ti ves of the Crown, that they could'not he Ad .lite d to call a meeting. He hoped those who ty hi l c 't wish to see ikll popular meetings of that tbeVlitimis de,crintiOn which had of late threat s;lt th • so much danger to the Country, would re• e A t o umenuent. r f• EznyNOToN asserted, that there was no 1 4 4 • 4 'l Then in the country that (elt a stronger erect ifs welt,:re than that whirls was pus -41 "f ft eehnlrl property to the of 1001 . . 4411 hat. The present Bill %tent to tcbtrain till meetings 'licit vvi)3t took place in parishes. If it was the object of tte Noble Lord opposite to oh rain a reinnisi!,ile secolity tor. all Coincv he, would t,ot o"Jject to the present Amend. meta. It it was his ohject to pot down all Meet it4;s, anti to cotice the people for that purpose, he Would object to ;t. Lori.) CAhTLEHEAGII-" . I said, last night, that no tnee,ings which took place tinder cover would ton c heo by this Bill ; all weetings, consequent ly, in Town-11111s, and the like places, will con;inne to be carried on withotit any "restric tion." After a desultory conversation, in which Sir U. Heron, Mr. Bathurst, and Loud Milton, took part, Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) declared, that if the amendmeot Was pt-ts,eu, lie wot,ld innierdimelv apply for leave to Eel,' n Cr) Ireland.—(A laugh )- 11e thought it vet y I;kely that twenty person, of the description proposed by the Noble Lnrd might be disposed to call a meeting for a very improp t r purpose. He would,appeal to the Com mittre, whether the sense of a county might nor be better taken in small sections than by assent blioglarge meetings. He protested against such meetings as the Noble Lord proposed to call by his 20 freeholders, at which no' per;un would he al r ile to make himself' teard by his lungs, or in any other Manner titan by banners and flags.— (A Sir C. MoNcx suggested that it might he a pr , ter4hie mode it his'Noble Friend (Lor d Connp- Ion) sl.nerld propose that the signareoet or twenty freeholders of 1001. a year sh9uld be considered competent to in,rke a req iisition for a County Meeting instead of being competent to call the Meting, Atter some further conversation, Lord •'ComPToN consented to the alteration propose() by his honourable Friend, in all cases, except for the countits of York, Lancashire, and other large counties, where a greater number of requisitionists should be deemed necessary. Lord CASTLEREAGH Said, if he rightly under stood his Noble Friend opposite, he now made thtee propositions to the Committee. For his part, it he (Lord Compton) did not wish to ren der the Bill mr.-story. he should recommend to abandon all three.—(Hear,) After some further conversat ion, in which Lords Compton, Castlereagh, Hemikon, and Folkestone, Sir C. Mona, the Lord Advncaie, Mr'. J. P. Grant, the Attorney-General, and Mr Brongham, took a part, in the course of which it was agreed to make certain alterations in the clauses with respect to Scotland, so as to authOrke Lord Lieu• tenants and Magistrates in any part of that county, to call public meetings ; the C,Tnnittee divided upon the proposition, that ten Commissioners of Supply sh o uld be authorised to call a County Meeting.' For . the Amendment, - 81 Against it, stil Majority • -180 When strangers- were,atitnittell, Lord COMPTON withdrew his Amendment. Mr. Alderman Worm was . of opinion, that, as the Bill now stood, not more than three or toot , Wards of the City of. London could hold public meetings at all. - He Moved, as an Amendment, that there *shonld he added to the clause', after the wor d f , A14E111611," the words. 't or three of . the Common Council of suet] Ward or .Division." Lord CASTLEREAGH could see no gtonn'l for the Amendment Moved by the Worthy Ali!erman Meetings In the City of London could be called by the Aldermen, by the Magistrates- : „,and.hy. the Lord ;Mayor generally, and by others, provided they were held inrooms. If tin room could be found sufficiently spacious for the purpose in the c ity. he could recommend them to a !thee in his neidtbour.hood— Willis's Honors where they could hold their Meetings, and which, he thought, Win:l - afford' every req.iisite accommodation The Amemhneut miist object ,being directly opposO to the : ptinciple of the Brll. Mr. Alderman Moan defended Ws Amendment as b l eing absolutely necessary. Without, he would venture to: soy, that not moret ban three or tour of the Cisr Wards would be able to nkeet at all. But this w, s perhaps the object of the Noble Lord. Mr. Alder Mart WAITHMAN supported the amendment, but agreed with • the Noble Lord, that the present amendment was directly against the principle of the . liill, .for the ptinciple of the Bill he held to be hostile to all public meetings. Sir W. CURTIS objected to the - amendment. It went to imply a distrust of,t he Aldermen of the Wards, who knew, and who, he was confident, would ever be found ready, to perform their duty. Mr. Alderman :Noon said, the necessity of the amendment was proved by the tact, that the Al. of the Wards had refused to call six or seven . meetings it the course of the last month— he.nreant meetings of the whole of the inhabitants, and not of any particular body. Ministets might gain the ques:tion, but they should Hot do so with ont.a,division, for he gave then' his honour he would not See the privileges of the City sacrificed without taking the sense - of the House on the clause.. Mr. WAITHMAN again spoke, but was opposed by calls tor the question. He s.tid he was not dismayed' by the noise which prevailed he was pretty well used to it.—(A laugh.)—He did not know that he troubled that House very much or very tiften, but he had a duty to perform, and per form it he would, and he doubted not but be should rise with the difficnlties that might be thrown in his ray.—(A laugh.)—He then de fended the amendment, but did not wish the House to be divided on it, as•be saw no chance of success. The. Gallery was ordered to be cleared, but in compliance with a loud cry of " Read, read," the Worthy Alderman did not press the question to a division, and the amendment was negatived. Mr. Alderman Woon moved, that after the words " Corporate Body," the words " or Li berty of London," should be added to the clause. On this motion, he thought it his duty to take the sensed the Committee, anti should certainly press It to a division. The SoLicyror.-GENERAt. showed the Amend ment %vas unnecessary; and, after a few words from Mr. WAITHMAN and Sir W. CURTIS, it was negatived without a division. Lotd CASTLEREAGH Withdrew die Clause ex repting trade meeting it from the operation of this Bill. Individuals might be '.r-d to attend such meetings, which might atterevards be turned by - the Radical: into Reform meetings, and thus those who We: re peaceably dc.posed, might be in a Manner entrapped into .that which was illegal. .A case in point had been stated on the precediu2 night. At a place in Scotland, where the cotton manufactiirers had as , embled to consider of a question nt great importance to them—one affect ing wages, its character bad been changed in !he way b e had supposed 11141 this might he done, int! the parties had separated with Resolutions in favour of Pailiamentary Reform, liniver,al aee, Elcci ions by lldint. Withdrawing this clause, it was his intention, when the Bill had passed through a Committee, to bring up ;mother clause to regulate trade weetiogs. Mr. J. Pi GRANT thought it would be conve tlicco for the Ittose to know what it was the in tention of the Noble Lord to move. Lord CAsTLEREAGu read the clause he had an nounced. which went 10 except Ach meetings trom i lie operations of the Bill, if held in a room or covered building. Hf~er a shots conversation between Mr. MAitIIYATT and Lord CASTLISREMPA, the - clause was wit tuba wn. Several retbal Amendments were moved, which, after some - diseu,sion, were negatived. On the clause regulating tlie at tt ntlaime at pub lic Meetings, Lord CASTLERRAGIT moved an Amendment. He tho, , ght it desirable that no person not resident in a parish should attend a parochial meeting, un less it were a matter of some notoriety thist Elie par!y was a Freeholder. If some provision weir not made on this head, any stranger might evade the Is by saying that lie was a Ireeholder. To guard against such an occurrence, he proposed an amendment, which only gave trveholders a tight to be present at the Meetings in Parishes where they did not reside, who possessed freehold pro perty of the annual value of 50/. Sir 11. FgaoussoN called the attention of the House to the statement that had been referred to by the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh), respect iog a meeting to consider of the rate of wages, at which it - had been said a few radicals had changed the whole of the proceedings, by intro ducing the question of Parliamentary Reform.— Tile statement was totally without loaplation. At the meeting in the county of Fife, consisting of from 8 to 10,000 persoos, there were not more than 450 radiAAs present, and there were persons who merely called for the Reform planned by Major Cartwright, and who, he believed to he innocent of all crime against the State. The people in that part of the country hart conducted themselves with the greatest propriety, though their distress was sevete, as a man who molted 15 hours in the day could earn but the miserable stipend of half-a-crown a•week. Mr. WYNNE wished that some provision should be introduced into the clause, to declare that householders should not he allowed to attend meetings of freeholders, or county meetings which were generally composed of such. For a house. holdet was •as much a stranger to all assembly of freeholders as an inhabitant of London would be at a meeting at York. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended, that it had been the general practice to allow householders to attend meetings of fteeholders; it was intended to oraintaits the law on that footing, and the Chose ha' been so worded for the purpose of avoiding the inference acid conclusion drawn by the Hon. Gentleman. After a few words from Mr. Primrose, Air. Honeywood, and Lord Castlereagh, the proposi• tion to exclude householders was understood to be abandoned. Mr. GRAHAM inquired whether the former Re presentative of any place of which he was not a freeman would have any tight to attelid a meeting at that place, to give an account of his confine( to those who. had been his constituents lie had the honour of representing the Coun , y 'and Town of Hull, of which he was not a freeman, and he thought it would be rasher harsh, .if, at the end of tie present Parliament, he should not be per mitted to attend a meeting of his constituents. Lord CASTLERKAGH said, that an exception was already made respect to meetings for election purposes, and he had no objection to take out of the operation of the Bill all tneetin,;s of voters which might occur between the issuing of the Speaker's Writ and. the return of a 'Member... Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that this would not remove the objection staled by his Honourable Ffiend, and pledged himself to prove what I c now advanced, when that part of thtsßill shotilti be before the Mr. WILLIAms proposed an Amendment, tend ing to allow persons who had the rig - ht of voting for the election of a Member in Parliament, al though non-residents, to attend the meetings held at the place for which they were entitled to vote. The Gallery was cleared, but we understood the amendment to have been negatived, and the original clause agreed to without a diiiision. On being re-admitted, w: found Lord CASTLEREAGH arguing against an amend ment looposed by Lord Althorp during Our ab-. sence, to the clatve declaring the attendance of stran,vets to meetings a misdemeanor. The amendment, as far as we could collect from the observations of the Noble Lord, tended to make it• a misdemeanor for a stranger to address, but not to attend a meeting. r. MalutvATT conceived the clause to he really harsh, and expressed his intention to vote for the amendment. Mr. lioatNsoN contended, that if the clause was not adopted as it now stood, the whole object ot the Bill would he defeated, and masses ot stran gers might continue to poor into parish meetings. Mr. Paniaoss strongly supported the Amend ment. Mr. BATHURST asked, to what purpose the House ll3cl been reguhting the deseliption of per sons who should be ;illowed to assemble, if meet ings were to be thrown open to the admiv.sion of all strangers, by the adoption of the Noble Lord's amendment ? Lord FoLREsTONE stipporteri the amendment. Mr. BRouGHANt maintained that if the %choir of he present clause were struck out, the objects 91 tire Bill would he as efrectually carried by enother pr ovisioo, which authot ised Ma g i e t races to re moie Strangers from reeeciugs held roofer their jeriscliction. The effect of his. Noble Friend's Amendment would be, that r rangers %tumid not be liable to fine or impriwoment tor t,vo years, unless they eddressed the meeting.— But whether they spoke or nor, the Magistrates would retain the power of making a Proclamation, and enfot ring their removal. He contended that the present repletion; would prevent the ',tiered'. itigs of those great, importaet, and frequently beneficed ureetiues fro e Leine faithfully reperted. !I would thus deprive the country of an advantage w hi c h it t w ee possessed, mot which the Noble Lord must well kilo,' how to appreciate. He was aware I hat the Hon. aed Learned Gentleman opposite thoeght 414:o - rut ly. That Hon. and Learned Gentler:l co considered these Reporters who' ,are their health, their time, and their talents, to a difficult eerti e e, too far beneath hint to de select his notice. He therefore treated them . with the greatest contempt ; and were it tint for that free Constitution, w bleb he now attempted to settee, rr, it would not be difficult to know where Ice would send them. It was their dote , to attend 41 public meetings ; as it was the duty of the Hon. aod Learned Gentlemen himself to at tend iii the Courts of Justice. But the /Icor and Learned Gem lemon moved in too elevated a sphere ro know any thing of the 111:1111Itr in which report ing was conductrd. As ire (Mr. Brougham) oc cupied a less lofty situation, he was better ac quainted with the subject, and could say that tea meritorious end laudable iodividuels who etc egtel ill that profession could not conic under the deno mination of those classes to which public meetings were left open. There could not be freeholders, housekeepers, nor inheritors in every place where such essem blies were held; and wit tient them, those meetings held to inflame the loyalty of the county, to rouse its patriotism against an invad ing enemy, and to answer the most beneficial purposes, would be reduced to a state of total inefficiency. He did not lay this exclusion to the charge of the Noble Lord, for be thought that Noble Lord's attention had been entire ly taken up with the idea of effectually pre eenti g the attendance of Hunt, and such itine rant orators. But if the Amendment of his Noble niend was trot carried, the only Reporters of those Debates would he the Lord Lieutenant of the County, a personage not very likely to know short-hand—(A laugh)—rte Custos Rotulorum, the High Sheriff, or the F i ethoidet s themselves. Nay, it the Amendment proposed by his Hon. Friend, the Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Wynne) were carried, there would not be a sin gle human being to attend those meetings, except freeholders, yeomen, and seine country gentle men. Would it then he expected that a tolerable report would be given to the Country %--(I tar, hear !) The ATToRNBY•GeNERAL observed, that after the most unprovoked attack---(Loud cries of heel, hear !)—he repeated, after the most unprovoked and undeserved attack which had been made upon him—en attack which he had not tittered a single syllable to deserve, he telt it necessary to trespass upon the House for a few moments. It was said that he entertained contempt for !het body of prisons called Reporters, What had he said contemptuous of them? What bad lie said of them at all ? He had never spoken of them dur ing the night He had attended to his Honour able and Learned Friend, as he was bound to do, in order to obviate his objections to the clause, but he declared that in supporting that clause he had no view ; he had never given any opinion that any set of persons should be excluded, ex cept by the general provisions of the Act.—(Hear, hear ! from the Opposition.)—The Right Hon. Gentleman, after some observations in answer to . some arguments urged against the clause, begged the House to excuse his U'airnth on this occasion ; the attack matte upon bins necessarily made hint feel warm. The object of that attack was with a view to render hire obnoxious to a respectable class of pet sons, against whom be had never tit tercel a syllable, bet with whom be could not ex pect to stand on the same terms as his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham). !laving said so much, he now came track to the Amendment. It would, if carried into effect, go to destroy the enecstneuts of the Bill. The object of the Bill was to prevent tutuultuary meetings ; the clause necessarily event to authorise such meetings. • Air. BROUGHAM stated in explanation, that when he had first mentioned Reporters, he bad nmiced what he thought to be a cheer, or a gesture of 'contempt on the part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—(Cries of No, no!)—Tice Hon. Mem bers wino sat behind the Hon. aud Learned Gen tleman, and therefore coul4 not possibly see his countenance, must allow hint to state what he conceived he had seen and _what formed his excuse for the expressions which lie had used. He had also heard the Hon. and Learned Gentleman say something like " 'tis all about Reporters." 'fire ATtnitNEY•GeNtlitAL was not conscious of having uttered a cheer. He had certainly turned to his lion. and Learned Friend (the Solicitor- General), but it was with a reference to the argu ment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, tool not to the respectable body of individuals whom it was attempted to make it appear be had wishes! to calumniate.—(Hear !) The Soeictrott-Geetter. stated, that the ex pression navel by his Ilooonrable and Learned Friend was, " why; it will have the effect of ex cluding the Reporters." But lie had not cheered. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman should select better grounds before he ventured to make such attacks.--(!fear, hear, heat !) Mr. DENMAN should he sorry to mix himself tip in personal diseussioes. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman contended, that. it Would be advantageous to withdraw the Clause. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he IVES ready to bear Itestimony that nothing passed Irons his Right Honourable Friend, that could instity the - ob servations of the Honourable and Learned Ci. , ,,.1 1 , Odium. If any thing passed wi h respect to Reporters, he was the person front whom it isro eeeded, but nothing of disrespect ; for those individuals had escaped hini.—He felt respect ter them. It was natural for the Honottra ble and Learned Gentleman to contend that Ite. porters should be enabled to attend 0 eetings, but