The Sun. — London, England, 1819-11-25 00:00:00

ed to be carried into execution, would be had no doobt, end in despotism. Mr. BacTea WILBRAHAM entered into some ex planations, in the course of which he mentioned that most of the statements which he had given yeverday were derived front information on oath, and the rest on the word of Gentlemen of the highest character and respectability. Mr. EGFRToN BRYDGEs WaS understood to ad mit the necessity of inquiry, but at the same time to consider that the House of Commons was not the place where it conk! be carried on effectually. The Magistrates felt as anxious as the House cold he to have the case fully investigated. Sir Wm. DE CHEsPIGNY contended, that the Riot Act was an Act of warning, which, in the 11Ianchester case, bad not been given, and con ferred do power to disperse the people till an hour after it had been read. lie wished to state an important fact. He knew a venerable Clergy- Matt, a man of piety and character, who, impelled by curiosity to see Mr. Hunt, had waded through the crowd assembled at Manchester as far as the bustings. Having sati4ed his curiosity, he was returning as fast as his age and the multitude would perenit, when he heard the yeomanry gallop with great velocity. They stopped, and formed in line opposite the house in which the Maeistrates were sitting. He then saw some person come out of that house, and make a short address ao the soldiers. They then clashed their sword's toge ther, dashed forwards, and forged their *ay into the crowd. He saw Hutt seized, and the flags torn ; after which the cavalry turned round. and commenced the work of destruction and death.— He then endeavoured to escape through a street opposite the hustings, but when he came there he found soldiers placed across the street. Lle en treated them to let hiin pass, but no ; they would not allow him, and forced him back into the scene of action. He then ,xperted to he cut down, when lie recollected that a friend of ois Lad house in the place; he hurried towards it, his friend saw and admitted hitt, and oece in safety he repaired to the window ; he then saw a poor titan take Shelter under the same door, pursued by that sante trumpeter, who cut repeatedly at him, a n d even triedoo force his horse up the stepsof tl edoer, to tench him more effectually ; the man ultimately Leapt! into the area for safety. %Viten such facts as this were toored on such respectable authority, he trusted that nobody would be hatdv enough in the Eloise to vote against an Amendment, insist jog on the necessity of inquiry. Lord NuaetaT complained that Ministers were not contented with assuming the fact of the ille gality of the Matichet , ter Meeting, •bto pretended that it had haen admitted to he so by his Right. Ikon. Ft land last night. This lie denied. It was from the fact of that admission that depended the. life of the cot - pity now called for. The evidence given by the Nuhle Lord (Castlereagh) was inad missible; because it was no evidence in chief, but ott suppositions, and because he had made himself - a party to those transactions, by advising the Royal Thanks to be expressed on the subject.-- The decision of the Grand Jai y at Laticasttr lead been adverted to,. as if it had tiled the legality at the meeting ; but it was no such thing. The qatotion was merely, whether certain individuals shoold be put upon their trials under Lord Ellen hotongh's Act, alai had nothing to do with lega lity. Eve; , had the Lancaster Grand Jury pro nounced the Mat,che , ter meeting illegal, the country had the unanimous declaration : of another J, lt y, t h e Coroner's Jury at Oldham, that the ante thug was perfectly legal. Granting all that his Mal -sty's \hoisters supposed, it would not pro ceed one bugle step towards vindicating their coo-11 , i fur having advi , ed so precipitate a letter of thauks. It it were even right to employ any military force, he conceived that it ooglit sot to have beau the Yeomanry, as many of them were the masters of the poor wretches who were cry ing f or w a g e s. An important fact had been stated to him, out authority which pettedly satisfied him of its truth, and which he was ready to bring to" the B,r of the [loose. It was, that issues of wine and braroly had been served out to the Yeomanry before the charge. He had also been informed, by the same authority, that some days after the Pith of August a number of Constables had met in one otethe public streets, broken their staves and burnt them, and said they would no longer setae under the orders of the Magistrates. An Hon. Gentleman opposite had told the House that the Courts of Law were ripen. XVII() was this confider in the Oltima ratio of Juries ? The very authmities, who, two years ago, had sup ported the Indemnity Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear !) What had the House been told, when actions had been brought against Lord Sidutouth for an un due exercise of power ? That Jades were not a fit tribunal to decide on such cases. And now it was Parliament that was represented as the unfit trihainal—(l-lear, hear !)—Was there to be one law for the Radicals, mad another for the People ? lisrhat was the 11 'use to lie called upon to dos? W e re they to limit the liberty of the Press ? to . pass a Bill of Indemnity ? or to suspend the Ha- ;heal Corpus ! It was only to misgovernment Ow the great diseases of na!ions were to be at tributed. Toe people of England were naturally loYal, peaceable, and religious. What had alf t•red their character, if it was altered ? lie was grievud when he heard the Hon. Member for Brainbef'_speak last night of the prevalence .pt /111p!;luty, and he trusted that the love for lic• of that Honourable and distinguished indi vidual had led him into an exaggerated belief on that point. What effect had the trial of that poor t wretch Carlile produced ? Had not h s hdretaced attempts to degrade Religion excited a thrill of horror tloough the whole Court, and produced a Verdict of condemnation ? It u spirit of blasphemy ,edition existed, it was not to by met by ditugeonsand chains. But let the people be etn- ployed. Let trade and manufactures revive. Open a commercial treaty with South America ; !kat cannot be done, let our faithful Ally Ferdi nand be prevailed upon to-open some of hi, ports to our merchandize. Those were the means of changing the spirit of the peOple. He then re. probated the removal of .Lord Fitzwilliatn from Ilks. post. IJet the Ministers beware lest, whilst they attempted to - degrade such a man for having shown Wpa.ermil feeling. to the people• and the Coustitu -1,,nal jealousy of Englishmen, they degraded their own bovereign.—(Llear, hear.)---If the House should separate without trTal fling relief to ttee peo ple, it might perhapa give rise to scenes of blorol. and ruin. For it would he aaiil that what the Ma , gisttates bad: done had mit only received from Ministers a hasty vote of thaults,j)ut that Parlia ment had contributed to screen Them from the con- . sequences of their conduct.—(llrar, hear!) WARttSN tsoderstood, yesterday, that all the Ilonourable Gentlemen opposite who had spoken on the question had acknowledged the 0.. t he Manchester Mee:ing.—(Cries ot No, no, ftrom the Opposition.)---- l'hey had hail a night to cOasider the subject----(No, no !)—an'l refreshed by /hair Sleep they how conic torward to say that they must be understood to have spoken under a reserve, to be settled by any tac:s which might hereafter he prodaced. Ile would take the • question with the reserve attached to it, and would try to satisfy the laloose with respect to the legality or illegality of the ,Meeting. Was it tor agotten that a letter had hee'l writteo by limit he :tore he took, the Chair at ih Meeting of the 16th. In this letter he said that he was cooling to assist the peopte on the subject of Reform, aid that it was necessary to make a demonst I . it , i•011of what ? ! physical force The Meeting had been ap ponited for the 9th of August, and the object was to eteet a Represeota , ye for Ilse nn represented In habitants of Man Chester. Bur even they after wards shrunk from this attempt—(Hear, hear, hear F from the Opposition)—and ai.ered the terins on which the Meeting of the 16 , h was called.— But could any one, with [besotted exercise of his reason, believe, that the alteration in the terms made any in the real object? If there were any mien so blind,—(dear, hear; Irmo ti-;e Opposi tion)—let h e i m po se d n0..----be was none of them.---(Langhter.)—lt was riot dellivd 11 +41 on the. 16111, several tho-sand perFonl., Hunt at their head, and tn,rched in military array. It was known that they had been ;rain ed before. Let the !louse consider what their hamlets were. One con , ained a bluely tlseger, another the inscription of • Equal 11 , :ptcsurtia , ton or Death. Now had Iltnir in his address to the people said, We are here for the purpose of oh raining our rights, and we will obtain them, even if threatened with death iu the attempt, that be or nut be a seditious speech ? It certainly wooid. Then what difference was there whether the words were tittered by the speaker, or written as au emblem Oil the banner under which the people met ? The Meeting was therchue illegal. The Magistrates were hilly justified in issuing the warrant for the apprehension of Elliot. It was not, therefore, a case for inquiry. It the Meet nig was illegal and riotous, it was the duty of the Magistrates 'to disperse It, and the manner it) which it was done was justified by the facts of the case. The Coatts of Law were open. If the Magistrates bed done any thing wrong, they were liable to a prosecution. What xvould he the result of an inquiry at the bar of that liouse ? That the House would older th e Magi strates, it it thought they were in tahlt, to be prosecuted. in the Crittits of Law ; so that after all the trouble incurred, the case would be sent back to the eery tribunal fr a gm whence it bad been removed.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—. The - Attoroey-General had item able to lay in dictments against Knight and other Radical Chiefs, why did not the parties who complained so loudly do the same against the Manchester Magistrates !- BecauSe they had no evidence on which to glotind their indictments. It could not be trout want of money or legal assistance, tor both it had been seen they possessed. The Courts of Law were open to their complaints, he should thetetore vote against the Amendment as unnecessary. Mr. Put Lttes contended that his Hon. Friend had not even disc,!ssed the question, whether the Meeting of the 16th of August was legal or illegal. But supposing it to have been illegal, there was still, a great difference between that and being riotous. He was aware of the situation of rite county of Lancaster, and of the facts pre ceding the meeting, which had created alarm. It was therefore the more necessary- that the Ma gistrates should proceed in their interference in a manner calculated to command the approbation of all reasonable men.-- . --(Hear, hear, hear !) He had hitherto carefully avoLled every thing that could unfairly bias his opinion on the sub ject, but he must own that there appeared to be such a difference between the statements of facts as, in his opinion, rendered an inquiry necessary. The SOLICITOR , GRNERAL maintained that there was at this moment a judicial proceeding depend ing before the Oldham Coroner—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition), which might affect the lives of the individuals against whom it was directed.—(Hear, (tear; hear !)—lt had advanced to a certain stage : evidence had been heard wholly on the one side, and partly on the other, and in consequence of a most unjustifiable attempt to pervert the course of justice that proceeding haul been suspended.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—Yet whilst it was still depending, a Member of that House had thought himself justified in bringing part of the evidence before Parliament, attended with observations calculated to pervert the march of justice.—(Hear, hear !)--He then contended that the illegality of the Manchester Meeting had been admitted by most of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, at least by inference, and in the clearest terms by a Learned and Honourable Friend of hiss He referred to the leading facts of illegality, to show the necessity of interposition. From the period of the prorogation of Parliament the disaffected commenced their operations.- it appeared from their own documents (for he had no private information), that their objects were intimidation, and the overthrow of the Constitution. Every week there were alarming meetings, called by those who made a trade of it, and used threats of a most seditious nature. They openly declared that Parliament had for feited the confidence of the 'country, and ought to be opposed by force of arms. That the Prince Resent acted as Charles and James had done, for which the one was slain and the other exiled. Their infamous publications, issued at the same time with astonishing' activity, propagated the same sentiments, and afforded abundant proof that a conspiracy existed to overturn the State by phy sical force. . Of all the means employed for this purpo,se, none were more formidable than Union Societies, with their delegates and regular con ceit, which could not co-exist with any regular form of Government. Thus prepared, the Meet ing of the 16th of August was avowedly to make a display of their force, such as- would encourage their own. friends and intimidate their enemies. A glance at the principal. actors'woulit more fully illustrate the nature of this meeting. Here the speaker described Hoot in terms of- Pointed •re probation, and connected his presence with the previous Smithfield declaration. that Parliament was not elected by Universal Suffrage, and there torp aught not to be obeyed that atter January, 1820, it should have no authority, and the timid debt, impudently to called, should be obli torated. This was the person, with. Harrison, Johnston, and Carlile, selected by the Reformers of the North for their grand muster. Anima& vetting on the infamous characters and declared revolutionary purposes of these persons, the Learned Gentleman contended, that it stamped the meeting as dangerous and illegal. lie then touched upon the ' 4 playing at soldiers" at mid night, in secret places, eighteen hundred or two thotrsand together, many of whom had served in the Army or Militia, and put it to the House to say what sort of an assemblage that was of which such proceedings were the preface. If Ministers had erred in any thing, it was in too wear. forbearance. The Learned Gentleman dwelt on the terror and alarm excited by (lie Meeting wlun it did take place, and on the many aggravating circumstances of parading under of ficers in military array, with violent and almost treasonatil banners, and other proofs Of a tl ter mination to resist by force, which rendeted it not only illecsl but riotous,. according to the defioi firm of that popular lawyer, Lord Chief Ji:stice Holt, whirl he defied any man to cowl-overt. The Nlagistracy were du-ref - ore obliged to ac t as they rlitl. They hail no discretion, and 'the Statut, Law imposed that duty upon them. He ' warmly , 'etended the whole -of their conduct. If . (to %; had waited till violence tvi,s actually' boric lr..fore they executed their legal warrant, th vv tvonbl, as the Magistrates were, in the year 1750, have been liable to be indicted on a erimi; pal iotormat jOn. The bust in gs t_o e removed front their first station, in older to defeat approach, and the yeomanry were assailed before a blow was struck. They were broken and some of thi l n knocked clown, when became necessary for the 15 h Hussars to rescue them. Here was no dis persion, but the execution of the law ; and if any excess was committed, not the i‘l,i - itrltes, but the offenders, were guilty. Was Patliament to proceed on mere surmise and suggestion, and even in opposition to the prima facie evidence of the Grand Jut y's decision against it.. lie concluded by asserting that there no disposition on the part of Government to !rut down public meetings (as had been insinuated) by force ; but quite the contrary. Mr. „ zIeARLETT explained. Sir F. Bottom entered upon the question at some length and declared his intention of speak ing his mind plainly and intelligibly on the. ,criti cal state of the country, now acknowledged on all hands. The danger did not arise from exter nal causes ; but from defects in the internal sitta lion of the country, which he ,had often insisted upon, and which Were eow obvious to every man not interested, in a system of taxation which the people conld no longer bear. This was the source • of the alarm and disaffection that so largely pre vailed, and 'could only be remedied by very dif ferent measures than those which he feared lbli nisters contemplated. Rational men looked to the cause of evils which they wished to remove ; hut rash and itnprudent men tried to repel the effects without curing the disease, lie had heard, during this discussion, many assertions so unconstitutional, that they would not have been listened to when he became a Member of that House ; and so many contradictions that they scented to coalesce in no one point, but in establishing the necessity for inquiry. Such was the result of the speech of the Learned Gen tleman who spoke last, though his vote would be the other way ; and such the effect of the speech of his old reforming friend (the. Chief. Justice for Cheater) whose change he was sorry to see, t hoogh be was too old a Member of Parliament to be sur• prized at any thing of that kind. But Ministers. were surrounded by their legal friends, and to say the troth every half year displayed a plentiful growth of legal authorities among them. He, however, would not bow to them. They might de cide ably enough on technical points, but on great constitutional questions, such as this was, there were nopersons in the House who carried so little conviction with them as the Gentlemen of the long robe. Those on the other side had not much aided the more prudent line of. defence adopted by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), whose at atement that the meeting was not illegal till the period of [hint's arrest, was the best answer that had been given. The Learned Gentleman, on the cootrary, argued that every thing previous had been illegal, even to the extent of treason. It had been said, '' the times are cruel, when we commit treason and know it not." So it was with, the poor Man chester people. They showed by their acts, that they wished to go on according to the law of the land. It was true they also wished, to give force to their proceedings.—(Hear.)—but let it be considered that they had been calling for Refoym many years its vain, before they adopted that -course. It might be true, as stated, that Ministers _had in one case shown too much forbearance ; but they might have been guilty' of too much severity elsewhere, and he desired inquiry boils into, their sins of omission and commission. He defended. the use of the banners at the Meeting ; " Liberty or Death," was inscribed_on every British heart. Whether it was prudent to use them .was another question, bur they were not high treason, nor did they authorize military execution. There might he cause for legal process, but there was no cause for altering the laws. The Honourable Baronet again protested his own competency to decide.on great constitutional points better than lawyers ; and again attacked his quondam friend, as lie called him, the Chief Justice of Chester, for his unfortunate debut and too zealorts avowal, of principles which he might be hereafter influenced by as a Judge.— He insisted that the Manchester Meeting had not been proved to be illegal ; but even if it was, the authorities had no right to act as they had done. He censured Ministers for the Answer given to the • City of London, and for the 'Thanks to the Itla' gistrates of Manchester. He Ives sure the Prince never felt the sentiment there pot into hia satisfaction," without one qualityine tv nr4 for promptness it) shedding- , blood. Was that what they thought a Royal breast should feel or' so melancholy an occasion ! Faveim it treason bad freer; committed,. they had done wrong, for tc " them the severe Riot Act appeaced too lenient•-" That Act did not say, kill women and children, and even your wan peace-officers, and atter that refuse any inquiry. He also argued that the ap prehenaion or terror of silly womanish , persona slid not constitute the sufficient alarm requirea by law. The Riot Act only gave the power to arrest, not to wound and sabre and cut indiscri• minately all who came in the way. The militarY were not thought of when the Riot Act was framed, and even Lord Mansfteld oily the inCerterence of soldiers in their capacity or citizens ; but not citizens armed and out of the pale of the Constitution (the YeomanrOe " 1 “ ) ; dared not disobey orders, oniess at the risk 01 immediate and signal pouishineot. Were men's . lives to he at their disposal ? lie saw o ° proof that the military were necessary ; and if the illegality had been so notorious as WaS represent" eel, Mr. Hula was answerable, and should have Breen arrested before or after the mar c" cording to the Leariod Gentlectiao's at : ow:ear this was not done, anti consequently i,lc,oel tact been shed through the shanolcd rekxat ion of ' he laws. Why was rebellion stithred to the p; -, . 7e period' when the people were ,:roveded tog etilerf and their military execution todrren, while their escape was prevented ? This e , ts a trod con sul . racy against the lives of sobjecis was ittipe,led by the expense attendant • a moit s eek' iog it, but whether or no, it was t,oi•if ") l - 1 Oise of COMM ifs, which soegio T roy ittc°, an alleged violation of rights. IL bei eyed_ .II OC Nlioisters were at the bottom or a,nl gistrates would nor have dated co set he kw at defiance hot for the new Police tey-oeco emaciating from Loot Sioceocoh, who was tire same as the Lieutenants of Pollee under the oltl Fr, inch 0 1 " vernment. He ridiculed any idea of people by other means that, an is ami its!lli et his opinion ; little confidence as he hot in meat, it most under circumstances come, t" right decision. He accused and aid tot pr et ,, tig e f he charged %valour) massacre, and appealed ,116 public, which would sit it) jAgmeot the 11 ,,,,e / it it refused to hear evidence except front the pl ties concerned, and the Mi o i s ce rs who sopoco' i ( f them. Ire sorb a ease, their Vole• that were possible, would not give one iota satisfaction to the country. Let them answer the Reformers by acts. fie asked where w.t , "'- proof of mischiel among the Ref •rmets 1. 1 " training he admitted—(Hear, hear !) —hot long had they borne their grievances ? I hi not wish change ; and it time corrupt BorOugn i n i fitmence in that House were destroyed, be %IT convinced the people would be cowented, Yid then contrasted the eases of Lord Castieregg' ) and Sir Manasseh Lopez; the one sitting or:. posite with all his blushing honours, and O w other fined-and imprisoned, t h oug h b ot h wer e guilty of corrupt influence. The private filthy'' dual was as pure as snow when compared to tiL e public Alinister ; he meant no personal imputati"li on the Noble Lord, for it was part of a s ystem without which the Government could not be c 5l ; tied on. And if an accusation were inoug a against his Lordship, he would say, let those are innocent cast the first stone. It should uox be thrown by laugh from the Mioist e vial side.)—He did not believe, however, that the t training was carried on to the extent stated ; were, refusing to hear what was to be said wo"o [mot mend the evil. A rational Reform vc""•a satisfy all ; and calling hard names instead granting it. only .proved. ignorance and e rror• There was no ground for the accusation in 1 011 " that the Reformers were host to religi''ll7, though no doubt some. aright be toti n d who so, and:these, -severe taws, diingeoning, and skid force, would not convince. Mr. W. WYNNE could not agree with t he - Hot' Baroael, or those who bad preceded_ hint in t , g same muse of - arguutent, that there were u fficient grounds tor 'asserting that the M , e ( ( t ie j of time ifith of August was diced!. He coot" 0 , that the display of banners inscribed with measured .epithets. as " Liimerty or Death, o pe and the notorious_facts of the military array ef t bodies which composed that Meeting, and tl, erc drilling, up to the very night preceding it , vf o f most unequivocal and imperishable testimoon st the illegal spirit which led them together on occasion ; and of the propriety of dispersing theb:d Sir JonN* SEBRIGHT said, he believed the re ,e a scarcely ever been a motion for hardly pron e ,' in that House for which he ba d not given his vO aor He should be sorry to he thought second t° ea. man in lamenting the events which had place at Manchester ; but, although he *din". je 3.e the necessity of itiquiry, he WAS. decidedly of nion'that the object of the Amendment wit:in l et , better attained by the Investigation th a of Judicature, than by any interfereoce 0 % ;00 House. He then entered into an able ex of the affairs of Maochester, and the questl.oiring Parliamentary Reform, anti concluded by dec i ' wl ia that he had never .mixed•in any society, th!'t„o tical circles of that HOuse excepted, be , did not find the sentiments of the majoritY tc s i, yea that some Reform in the House , of Comm oo a k i ' g necessary ; but be deprecated the idea of r n iial oy. any concessions to what men called the I ts r ( r ia a ti Mr. LYTTLETON agreed with his Hon. _ ss n ot in thinking that the pres . ent Atnendment w ee t he the best calculated to convey to .the sentiments of the House and of the Coon ti t yenta p os i n t of voting. for . Abe Address without any o'n' n _ onc or. Ice hoped lie would not be considered "sr L' i ring with Ministers ; be thought that t„e e oa t nie conduct was_ the cause of the preva ilin, des e d o. tent-in the country, and be locked upvta l je na tect L niissal of the Earl i'itzwilliam as haying from them tbe heart of . every honest Ina n ' repe ateu Mr. CANNING -rose, in -the m hist of 00 ` toe $5 calls or his name ; he congratulated the vre ise n much as any of those who had last n i g h it ,,ortli • the adjournment, tom this departure fronl,rorded nary practice, as. time had thus :beet) 011_ impartall parties to consider more Cully on th e yobo ance of the vote to be given that tlig"' totie 4 tita n , 1 : 1 1t r i 44 d t rica t 4 tv , ss t:Stratt uf ir e c tv tultutit , ut e4sir *1„ 1 eSe t ` l rlh 44111 17 Lai , thh e