The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-23 00:00:00

MORNING EDITION- to.itation in stating - that the contracts would be jc- Cared invalid ab MEDICAL REFORM BILL. In a shot/ conversation upon the M e Ncsl Reform . dtr ot his intention to M r , V.A.WES stated that it was bring .hrward his Bi l l to-mom ' e would take an ca .) opportunity of static what course he should "'antic. •Busnel-paS OF THE HOUSE. fir ROBEP: PEEL said the Noble Lord the Se %wiry o r dtate for the Colonial Department had 'tato on Friday night that he did not propose to occupy the whole of the evening in discussing the Poor.law BeL. The impression of the House was, that the whole night would he consumed in that discussion. — (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Noble Lnrd did not intend to proceed with the Administration of Justice Bill until a few days' notice had been given to the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL had stated on Friday that he did not expect the Poor-law Amendment all would occupy the whole of the time of the House ; and lie was still of the same opinion, for reasons which he should prescrtly state. He had not then stated that be proposed to go on with the Bill for the Ad. IniniAretion of Just . ce ; and not having stated that be would not ask the House to take it irto their consideration. this evening, as sufficient motives might ot have bean given on them tit r. What he proposed ta do with the Pc or-law B:ll was to take immediately the clauses nit}, ru. and to the duration of the Commis sioner and the issuing of the general rules. But as ho foun I that a great number of amend =eats had been prepased which would require much time and consideration, and in which he telt it desirable that he should have further communication with those who were eet-usted with the administration of the taw, he would propose that they should go on with the bill on Friday, when be would be able to state whether there were any of those amendmeats which he could be prep...red ether to introduce Vmstlf, or to support when brought forward by other Hoe. Members. lie would afterwards move that next work, on Monday and the succeeding days the Houle should consider the Bill in Commitee from day to day. He hoped that course would not he in conveuient to the House a and he certainly did not Nviah to press on to-night any Bi.l to which it could be objected that due n ti ir had nct hen gi% el on the ;subject. Slr ROBERT PEEL said that it a ; )i.e ired to him that if the Noble Lord dal not intimate to the He use MCI Friday which of fie amendments he was inclined to adopi, they would he able ti iaak:! but ve 1;ttl: progress with the Bill on that day. He thought the Noble Lord should at as t ar:y a period as possible, ex plain his intim.; as upon the matter. Lo - d JOHN RUSSELL said he hoped he should be able on W dnesday to state the course be would take respecting the Bill. He might take that o; Bert ;nil of mentioning, with respect to the mottos of an Honot r drle Me nb regarding the cc bony of Nrwfoundland, th it if the Honourable Mem ber cished t ) have a Committee, the id irreaeion which he might desire was not. completely toady ; but be (Lord .1. Russell) expo cited further inorrira . ion at an early period. Still he should not object to the Coin rnitte if the Hoe. G.:ntletnan merely acted his inten tions with respect to the malion. He should observa that he bel evad there was at present no other notice of nay censequente sn tha papers. M-. GOULBURN irgiircd wl:eh it. was pro posed to proceed kelth ti e saolutions proposed by the Right Hoe. Prssideet of the-B end ot Trade. They Stood its ine pap r for Frid hot he supposed the! vvoulil n ot coin s 'sr. Lord J. RUSSEL L said f e further consideration of t h em would Le riostpooed t 1; Monday se'anight. CONSOU.DATED FUND BILL. On the Inqtioll of the NOBLE LORD the 11.0 D P, re. seder d tel into Committee on the Consolidated Fund (8,000,00 1 ) 1 .) Beeline in the Glair. Tee CHANCELLOR 05 the EXCHEQUER said the Hoc. Member for Stamford bad on a former er earng a kecl a question respecting some accounts to wh i c h he bad not been prepared to give an answer. He had looked into the matter, and found that the whale mistake arose frost: the Hoe. B ironet not calling for a full and prow accoun'. Toe return ordcrcd by the House asked for an account of all the demands, but it did not go en to demand an account of the sums in the Treasury available for the payment of the demands, and this led tto the mistake under which the Hon. Baronet laboured. There was, one sum which certainly required an expla mation—it wos with raga.d to Cain.'.—(Hear, hear.) 'l'ne r:turn stated she estimated amount of outstanding demand to be 23,0001. That etas the whole of the amount which the .sury knew of, but he was hotrod to state that a much larger sum than that was out reancline. Sir GEORGE CLERK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had given an explanation and a distinct answer to the question which he had put t 3 him on Friday night. But the answer which the Right lion. Gentleman mede catch for some further observations. The Hon. Baronet lier..r eniercd into a detail of the 'carious sums inclad ,d under the lira I of naval expeases, and said that ha could net see why any dis tinction sliould be made io the appropriation of those sums, and ere 156,0001. which hal coma under con oideration on o former occasion. Mr. MORE OTERRALL said that some of tl e monies mentioned by the Hoe. Baronet never found their way into tie Treasury, nor was it intended that they should. Tee Right lion. Gentleman made some further observations which we could not catch. Mr. HERRIES complained of the want of in forms flora, He trusted that the Chancellor of the Exche quer would see the propriety of giving ad the informa tion that could be obtained upon the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trete!e a few observations that were altogether inaudible. Mr. HUNIE said he wished to inquire of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, whcher cr not he was now ap plying mousy belonging to the Savings' Banks to carry son the expen.es of the country. He asked this question because it was it leverl in the City, that a very large sum had been applied in this is ay. On a former occasion he (Mr. Hume) had asked a similar question .in the HCUW, which the Clianei.l or of the Exchequer evaded, but in the end it app .in that he had borrowed money .in this Innnnee, and funded it to the amount of more Siren three millio .e. He, therefore, wished to know whether iu the present s'a'e of the finances of the country this course was again resorted t), as, if so, he considered it to be highly improper. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, 'who spoke extre nely law. was understood to reply that, •unileubtedly he had had recourse to the expedient alluded to by the Hoe. Member in the pre:cot year, hut ta) notuine like the extent that had been stated. Mr. HUME thought that the candid avowal of the • 'tigrs Hen. Geatleman, the Chancellor of the Exche quer, ought to el mill the House, and call for an expres sion o; its disapprobation that any Government should presume to add to the Nailonal Debt without coming to the House.—(Hear, hear.) When the Rouse was sitting, if there we -e any deli :trey in the revenue, th, Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to c one bef o ore the House and st ite f tirly %hat it wag, and let the use pre.vida for it. Na Chance:tor of the Exchequer ()tight to be allowed to go into the market a nd raise money as he pirate: ! 1 t the sanction and knowledge of the -' ' House.—(Hear, g't'u hear.) lie protested against it, as v,. e . n , proceeding . , and it would be fir efieaH most irregular place any n ore e se t o i con,ider whether it would Government which a h y a s d anc adoptedm ea means such :the disposal of a all unconstituional proceeding. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ;a id Mere co uld be no doubt that he p os t esse d t h e t h a t which hail teen done, and the cour se power to do which be had adopted tees one that had been pursued before under similar circumstances. He rerfectly 0- m in which witted that he w as responsi h l .3 for the manner /re had exercised the discretion conferred upon h im. The question having been pot, The SPEAKER said, that befor e duty ctljaucsael the tend a second time, he felt it to be his attentien of the House to the clause, wore espccially as respected the practice of the House, because it was as the first tithe an appropriation clause had anted in this way. lie bel weal the objectetehne ne. Gentleman Lad in view in proposing the clause, was o mark the sense of the House upon the excess of ex penditure, in such a way tbat it might not be drawn into a precedent in future. Since the year 1762 he found no instance of any 8.11 of appropriation except one, and that one was a remarkable instance of a course coatrary to what was now adopted. That in stance crenurree: in 1790, when an extraordiaaey expen diture took place, in consequence of an expedition attended with great expense, that had been fitted out. it was then cons;flered desirable that the vote should Dot be mixed up with the ordinary vote of supply, but should be reserved to :he end of the Session. He merely threw this out. as a Su:gestic:in for the informa tion o f the House. Mr. HUME said that after what had fallen from the Speaker it appeared tq him a matter of conse quence that they should not have the subjects mixed up. However he saw no reason why the clause should :not be allowed to s tand ()se', and the co urse ' sugges t e d lby the Speaker ad o p te d. MreGOUL BURN said that the objection he stated was that the Government had brought down an erti mate confessedly below what they knew to be necessary. He, for one, would be satisfied with an, course which alight be suggested. The taaking of the estimate be- A tm what was in fact required might be justified by clretwastances, but be thought the House was called 1 4on to make some discretionary provision to guard :against the repetition of it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 'said that the only practical object of the House was to mark its sense of the peculiar nature of the proceeding. It was thought that that had be en done in a grea t meta :sure by the discussions which bad taken place on the •subject. Mr. WOOD said the Right Hon. Member for T o osvorth had expressed his satisfaction at the course kug psted. No one 4 the time was aware of the ob- jection to which the Speaker had so forcibly adverted. He thought, after what the Speaker had said, the ob ject would be best fleeted by withdrawing the clause irom the present. Bill, and introducing it at the end of the Session. It should be withdrawn on the distinct understanding that it would be re-introduced at the close of the Sessioc. S;r R. PEEL said he had been entirely satisfied with the course which the Hon. Gentleman proposed, thinking it quite , sufficient to mark the sense of the House, and to prevent this proceeding from being drawn into a prece lent. He would have been satis fied, as he ha l before said, if in the Queen's speech the Queen had said, " I have departed from the ordina•y course with respect to the expenditure of the Navy. I have exceeded the estimate, and I foresaw that I should exceed it, but the circumstances we-e such as to justify ma in taking the course which I did." That would have entirely satisfied him. It would have been a re cord of the circumstances under which the thing was done. But the Chancellor of the Becht quer's zeal outstripped his (Sir R. Peel's), and he said he would bring in aBA providing for the special case. Sime object ons, however, had arisen which be had not fore... sr - en, to the course proposed. The object, he thought, would be equally answered by inserting it in the gene ral appropriation clause, with some specific reference to it in the preamble. That would prevent its being drawn into a precedent, and avoid those inconveniences and pcssib!e dangers to which the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Speaker of the House, had so properly called their at: cation. The 811 went through the Committee, and the Rouse resumed. POOR-LAW AMENDMENT ACT. Lord J. RUSSELL having moved the Order of the Diy for the Committee on the Poor.law Amendment Net, Captain PECHELL presented a petition from a town in Sussex,forming one of the seventeen parishes in the Sutton Union, complaining of the Bill, and praying that the elluse relating to the Gilbert Act might be expunged. Sir A. GRANT and Mr. LANGDALE presented similar petition?, the latter being from Springfield, near Che:t Mr. HODGSON HINDE then rose to move that ;t be an instruction to the Committee to defi!,e the ne cessary rules, orders, and regulations for the manage ment of the poor and the government of workhouses, and make provision for the discontinuance of the power of 1 gis!ation now possessed by the Commissioners ; and for confining the power of the said Commissioners to the completion of unions, and the superintendence and inspection of the boards of guardians. The Hon. Member was proc( eling to address the House when he was interrupted by Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who said that this would deft at the till, and therefore it caul I not be the sub- ject of instruction to the Committee. The SPEAKER was understood to decide that the motion was irregular, and it was therefore withdrawn. Mr. W. DUNCOMBE said be hoped the Noble Lord (J. Russell) would give an assurance to the House that he did not desire to hurry this B:ll through its future stages before the Easter holidays. It appeared to him to be due to Vie great body of pe tioners who ha I Fe:.itioued the Hot:se against the Bid, that no unusual course should be adopted with regard to it, and that ample time should be given to consider its provisions after it had gone through Committce.— (Hear, hear.) Under these eireurn-t inces he tru,te.l the Noble L.:rd would assure the Howe that he had no intention of hurrying the B L through belore East r. He trutte 1 it would not get through the Committee be- fore Easter, but if it should he trusted the Nob'e Lord ould not press its alter stages, but would aff,,rd ample opportunity to the House and the country to consider its various prov:sions.. Lord F: EGERTON wished, before t'ie Speaker left the Chair, to enter into an explanation, which he thought was due to himself, to the N 0613 Lord, and the Home. He had understood that there were 'lei- tions against the Bill most numerously and respectably signed from Manchester and Sit'ord. These petitions were now in the course of signature, and woulil pro bably receive many more signatures before they here presentcd. They were not only against -the present 81 1 , but were also in opposition to t..e principle of the Poor! iw Amendment Act. tie had b( ea applied to t present these petitions, but having voted for the sc cund reading of the Bill on Friday night, he haa ad vised the petitioners to request some other Member to present the petitions, but at the same time he stated to them that if they still desired he should present their petitions he would do so. At the same time he could not but consider the intelligence he had received as an indication of a very strong feeling on the subject in the maaufacturing districts, at the existence of which he was not surprised.—(Cheers.) Having had consider able experience of the operation of the old law in the south of England he had come to the conclusion that the system there adopted r.quired great alteration, and lie thought the alteration that had been effected there by the present law was in every respect an improve ment. At the same thug he regrttte i that ct , .:ee dis stricis differently circumstanced should have been sub jected to it, and thought it might be matter for consi deration whether it ought to be extended to districts where circumstances did not render it absolutely neces sary. He trusted the Nuble Lord wou!d grant further delay. Lord J. RUSSELL—It was by no means his wish to hurry the Poor-law Bill through the Housc.— (Hear, hear.) He wished t) proceed day by day la ith the consideration of the clauses, because in a Bill of so much importance it was desirable to Lave as full an attendance as possible, and the interposition of other business tented to distract attention from it.—( Hear, bear.) With respect to witat had been said by the Noble Lord opposite, he did not doubt but that a nu merously signed petit on had been presented against the B:11 from Manchester, but he could not allow that that proved that the general feeling of the people in that town was against it. On the contrary, so far as his information went, the feeling was the other way. — (Hear, hear.) In so la-ge a place it was always easy to °ash] a numerous attendance at a public meet ing, when the !cAings of the people were roused upon the subject of it, yet he understood that not more than 300 persons attended the meeting at which the petition was agreed to, and that tl.e signatures to it had been obtained by very considerable industry, and some mis representation. Mr. J. Fl ELDEN could assure the Noble Lord thA the feeling against the Bi'l r. as so strong it Man chest_!:-, that the Commissioners, backed by all the au thority of the Government, would never succeed in putting it auto force there. It was wholly unsuited to the manufacturing districts, and would never he adopted in them. Sir E. SUGDEN hoped the Noble Lord would pro pose some chose, providing thist aged wives and hus bands, when driven to the workhouse, should not be sup- rated..—( Hear, hear). That question had much excited the public mind, and he thought some provision of that sort was necessary. if the Noble Lord did not propose such a cl 'use, he (Sir E. Sudden) would feel it his duty to do so. Colonel WOOD said, in the Staines Union work house, of which he w.is an ex-officio guardian, such a practice did not exist. The aged married people had good rooms, with a comfortable fire—they were not heated with warm water. Mr. W. ELLIS said the aged poor were not so lodged in a vast number of the unions, and he trusted ha would receive the support of the House when he proposed the amendment of which he had given notice. Mr. LEADER said a very strong fee!ing prevailed in t'ie country on the subject. The Noble Lord said Oct there were not so many petitions presented on the question as might be expected. He (Mr. Leader) could account for t'..at from the manner in which peti tions were treated in that House—it was in fact a farce. Tue people hal no confidence in the House. There was no political uubjeLt on which the public had so strong a feeling as the question of the Poor-laws ; and the Nohl% L or d was niiibt...ken if he imagined that the t• stronost feelings pcssibie would not continue to be exlai bifed by the working cl asses oa th at subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had stated no such thing as the Hon. Member attributed to him. He had men ly alluded to what h e h ear d respecting the Manchester meeting. Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL wa• opposed to the Poor-law Commissioners having the right to sum mon before them persons attending public meetings who belonged to the Poor-law e , tablishments. We understood' the Hon. Baronet to ask for some inform s . lion o. subject.n " 3 at Lord RUSSELL said he could not then inform . on the subject, but that he intended into the matter, and that he would to m he had been Chairman th e i communicatek o e n n n q u a ri ther°nese fr. Mr. SLANEY said totoquitraeteinttobatthethcelaußsees oo f f the te Committeepooresult. Mr. as thats abuses of the Re port of that Committee showedlatr,haepsvpioasinetendatilteod grossest of he thong .e change was certainly necessary, an e to give the est nature took place u n d e r the d system. iti Some Noble Lord should he allowed sufficient tim remove t d b u o c ie c a o b n u si , d e e io ration, and thereby be enabled to After a fee words from General EVANS, Mr. W AKLEY s .id he hoped that something would be done with reference to the principle w hi c h the mo tion involved. At present the entire g overnment of tLe workhothes was left in Cie hands of the Commissioners. They made whatever rules, and orders, and regulations they pleased. The boards of guardians were so many puppets or nonentties in their band& There was a fact, bearing . on the subject, which lately came to his knowledge, and which he thought it his duty to men- Lon to the House. The circumstance involved a great amount of 'moral guilt.—(Hear, heir.) A ease had late!) , been investigated at Shire Hall, in Nottingham shire, the subject of which was a pauper named Parkes. It appeared on evidence that the man died from exhaus tion. The overseer and surgeon we e brought before the Magistrates , a comiliint having been made against them that they negltcted to do what they ought to have done on the occasion. The surgeon stated to the Ma- ONDON, TUESD Y, MARCH 23, 1841 T H E SUN, gistratc; that they Lai endeavoured to obtain from the I board of guardians a relaxation of the rule they made with respect to g iving nutr.ment in cases of destitution and exhaustion. For six,weeks he continued entreating them to alter the rule which directed that when the surgeon ordered anything beyond the dietary which the diet table c ontained, it was not to be given till the board had sanctioned the prescription.—(Hear, hear.) So that, in point of fact, if a medical man witnessed a pa tient of his dying hour by hour from weakness or ex haustion, he had not the power--the governor bad not the power—to give the sick man a glass of wine or a single ounce of meat. When the question was discussed before tie Bench, a Magistrate, named Roll 'stop, who was a Member of that House, and who he (Mr. W.) hoped was then present, as he could ex- Olin the facts of the case better than he could, as he (Mr. %V.) had merely read an account of the transac tion in the public papers—that Hon. Gentleman stated that ho believed rule in question had met with the disapprobation of the Commissioners. A sur- 1 genii bad called on him (Mr. W.) to-day, and expressed his surprise at hit (Mr. W.'s) not taking notice of a communication which he had sent him. Oa his (Mr. W.'s) stating that he did not recollect the communica tion, and requesting him to mention the facts to which it referred, the surgeon said that Le hail a dispute with the Uxbridge Board of Guardians. He kthe surgeon) found it necessary in consequence of the destitute state in which he found the poor in that district, to order as a remedy nutriment to support and sustain their emaciated frames. The Hon. Gent.eman then proceeded to read the correspondence which bad passed between Mr. Itcyner and the Poor-law Commissioners. In his first I,qt..r_to the guardians, datei • December 3d, 1840, Mr. Reyner stated that as he had been informed that it was deemed unreasonable on his tart that he should hate given orders for mutton, beer, aad beer, fotecertain patients in the union, he thought it right to acquaint the board that he had in no single instance given any orders of that kind which he had not felt it his duty to do, and that he considered that a proper quantity and deecrit ton of nourishment was of as much importance in the treatment of his patients as any other remedy. The board of guardians had after wards come to a resolution to the following effect : that as Mr. Reyner, out of nineteen patients during the week, which he had attended, bad ordered snutton, beer, and bread to fourteen, and as it appeared he had ordered relief for two parties who were not in the list, Mr. Reyner should be required to furnish the guardians with explanation on the subject. Mr. Reyner stated in reply, that he considered the diet he had ordered, necessary to his patients, and so long as he continued an officer, he would, under the tame circumstances, pursue a similar inc of conduct. Ile had heard that some of his orders had been refused and others torn up ; and Le, therefore, considered it his duty to state distinctly to the board, that he would not take upon himself the care and responsiblty of the patients to whom his orders were refused, ror tisk the danger which might follow from such refusal, but he would feel himself bound not to continue in his office under such disadvantageous and hopeless eircumstances. Next came the letter addressed to the Poor-law Commis' sioners, in which M. Reyner having enclosed the corre spondence between himself anti the guardians, solicited their answer upon three points. He wished to know whether he had the authority as a medical officer to order any description or article of diet for the pauper patients under his care ; secondly, from whence did that authority arise; and thirdly, whether the board of guardians, or the relieving officer, had the authority to refuse the diet which be, as a medical officer, deemed necessary for his patents ; and if se, what would be the ground for such refusal. Tne answer of the Commissioners was dated the 4th of -March. It was to the following effect :—" The Poor-law Commis sioners acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 4th u't., and its enclosures. They have bad under their consideration the inquiries you submitted to them with respect to your authority as a medical offi cer, to order any description of diet you might think fit for paupers under your care. The Commissioners in reply, desire to inform you, that a medic el officer is net empowered by the order of the Commissioners, or by his contact with the guardians,•to order a-ticles of diet. for pauper patients under his case. Such a prosier would be eeuivalent to the power of g:vicg re lief, which the law has vested generally in the guardians, and which it is not competent to a medical officer to exer cise. A medical officer can only recommend or ads ise guardians orrelievingofficers to give certain articlesof diet to pauper patients, and the guardians or the relieving offi cers, will exercise their discretion on their own responsibi lity, whether or not they should adopt such recom mendation or advice." The guardians, then, continued the Hon. Gentleman, after having entered into a con tract with a medical practitioner to take care of the poor, themselves undertook their mudical treatment— ( Hear, hear.) It was doing neither more nor less. The medical gentleman might say that nutriment was wanted; and, instead of filthy drugs, he might recom mend wine, beef, mutton, jellies, soup, and other ne cessaries ; but, as these were costly things, they could not be given without the sanction of the guardians, who might not meet for a week after. But what was to be come of the poor in the meantime? It was a consi deration to fill the mind with disgust and horror ; and by such a law they would pronounce a sentence of death against hundreds of their fellow-couirtry men ? What was the treatment of crimim:l gaols? were the donors restrained there in that way ? (Hear, hear.) The House knew full well they were not restrained. They might order any articles of diet they chose ; and in the gaols of this country, where men who had violated the law were confined. nutriment of every description was invariably given on the uncon trolled prescription and advice of the medical officer ; but when these unhappy poor, who had laboured for years to add to the dignity and renown of the country, were in a state of destitution, and its one of those gaols which had been constructad fir their convenience, if a medical officer prescribed a remedy which he deemed essential to their very existence, it could not be given without the sanction of the non-medical board. lie wished to state that fact ; they might do with it. as they pie ire '. Mr. DARBY wished to set the Hon. Gentleman right as to one point. If the Board did not meet within a certain time, and the me Heal man said danger would ensue, if the necessary relief was not given an order might be obtained from a Magistrate for the pur pose of procuring it. Sir H. VERNEY said the case stetsel by the Hon Member for Finsbury was quite new to him. It cer tainly weld(' give him great pain if be thought such misery could be caused as had been stated, but he thought that the provisions of the Bill afforded every necessary pretection, and were sufficient to meet every case that could arise. Lord HO WICK, hissing seen something of the ad ministration of the Poor-!aws, could distinctly state that lie had never remembered a case in which a board of guardians had hesitated for one single instant, in or dering nourishments, and the most expensive nourish ments, wine and so on, in cases where they be,ie‘e 1 them to be necessary.—(Cheers from the Poor-law Act supporters.) He begged to tell the Hun. Mem ber for Finsbury, that it did not follow because a man happened to have received a medical education, or to he a member of the College of Surgeons, or some other learned body, he was not at the same time a per son whose object was to ex'rite dissatisfaction in the populatior.—( Hear, hear.) It did not follow that he might not be a man who wished to curry a low and despicable popul irity, and to endeavour to create an outer? for no proper reason—(Cheers) —it did not fellow that he might not be capable of abusing the trust reposed in him, and availing himself of the autho rity he Exercised as an officer of the union for the pur pose of mischief, and in .order to defeat that law which le ought to assist in administering.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If a board of guardians had reason to suspect, and were of opinion, that under the plea of ordering a proper medical treatment that officer was setting aside the system of relief which ought to prevail, they w le bound t art upon diet opinion, and to decline the recom mendation of that medical man. He did not mean to accuse the Hon. Member for Finsbury of wilful mis representation ; such an accusation, he kt ew, would be altogether unparhamentary.—(Laughter.) He would accuse no gentleman of anything of the sort, but the lion. Gentleman certainly did too readily adopt loose statements-- Mr WAKLEY—Has any one that I heva ever made been refuted ?—( Hear, bear.) Lord HOW ICK would ask whether they had been substantiated ? The Hon. Gentleman had stated that local governments ought to be maintained, and that all interference with boards ought to be avoided, and yet his complaint had been against the elected board of guardians.—(Hear, hear). He trusted that this case, wnb notice, ti e nh h en, ti ii se nHn w ou l d s o not (b e c n a hv t le ene n ra r s a n) n y. had great brought weight forward attached without Lo C n o h lo a n s e a l . S x l io ß u T s H to O s ß e ‘ P k panskpendiarifitythaesrethwisehreumnoblNe and,oble to the attack of the No ble Lo r d three weeks were su ff ered to : 1" 1 ; n-,issioners answere d the letter ? he stimuli say, respectabl e i h dp o :lnf b had ean b ftnw e r e ‘ev n weart s eis t: e t i ) f j tec e e C tnlh t irn e : d gt. neither the Comn a is n s d ion e ts nor the Noble Lord had any ,tion the br ttbi r b tSb e i fel .ocrtaanArlFirnsil'Yes°: administer y description oTfhfeo r feeling eive d whatever, hi a ai t soot ) l o c t r d: the Noble Lord had he had iimLeni P etdy oo %Nliot l ph a f wiAthEie.G_uicsfriliiieen had oble bet ter.—( Hoar, Finsbury, I N a t o Ihtened with pain to the statement soed flon. Merri s of l) the ahcee_s surgeon ee g or r ne e th t t e ae r d pain e c o a r se n s e o u u ri g sh h - t was i n ri o v t est i : n gat n e p d e e rat l ia n n t atten t iv e o f the Hon . Went he migh t d . cserve e d the moat think fit. Th pow e Poor-law 1. Member for Finsbury the Commi ssioners con sideration. True ans"'!r of h d been did not j e esoiry intimate that any ha ul made at all before the reproof was isdasinisterc was wrong. li e ld b evs tions ou e debat e d w i thout trusted that these the acrimony that hod t h at n;ght been exhibited. • Colonel ROL Is ES"CO I N complained that , the Hon. Member for Finsbury had not given him notice of his intention to draw the House to this subject. As an ex-officio guardian of the Baystrick Union, he had ael dom visited it, being of opinion that unless a guardian was able to attend regularly, his attendance could be of little service, and he should not have gone on the occa sion alluded to had it not been for an account of a hor rible case which be had seen in the paper. He found an investigation had been ordered. A pauper named Marsh had been removed in most inclement weather into the union-house, and, after a few hours, he hid died. He believed the inferior officers of the house had done all they could for him. The medical man st ited that he had ordered tea, water-gruel, &c. He had been asked what that &c. meant, and whether he would not have ordered something else. He said Yes, he should have ordered spiced-wine, but it was contrary t ) the order of the Board of Guar&ans. He (Co!. H.) expressed his doubt of this order, and the medical man app°•aled to the Chairman of the Board of Uuardiaas, who said that although there was no written order, yet a verb,.l injunction had been given to him to brit ctiect which, on the application of the medical man, he (the Chairman of the Board of Guardians) had endea voured to get re;cinded, but without effect.—( Hear, hear.) At the &Aare time he felt assured that the House must I.erceive that the Poor-law Cominisioners had had neeling whatever to do with the order in question. —( Hear, hear.) He believed the blame of this urJor tunato occurrence did not attach to the Poor-law Com missioners in consequence of any general order which they had made. The circumstances, however, were brought before the Magistrates, and they thought it of so serious a nature as to require further invest;gation. The case was brought before a Court of Justice, and the Learned Judge in addressing the Grand Jury said, the indictment against the medical men who had sent this person in such inclement weather in an open cart, should have been for manslaughter, and not for misde meanour. The case was now undergoing further in- vestigation. Captain HAMILTON said, as a guardian of a union, he had alwa3s understood that the medical offi cers had the power of ordering whatever they thought best. But be thought the statement which had just been made, should in iuce members to pause before they voted for the fourth clause, lest what they blamed and condemned at Uxbridge should be enacted elsewhere. Mr. WOOD had acted as a guardian far a consider able period. The result of his experience was that in al cases the medical man ordered whatever he thought proper, and the first intimation that the Board had of it, was an application to the relieving officer to pay the bill. Mr. E. BULLER had seen the same practice uni ve-saily pursued. General JOHNSTON complained that the medical officer had not the power of administering to the patient unless he had the authority of the relieving officer or the board of guardians. Sometimes the guardians did not meet for a fortnight. Did the House of Commons sit for the purpose of starving the poor ?—( Hear, hear.) He extremely regretted the declaration of the Noble Lord at the commencement of the debate. A declara tion which confounded evil with good, virtue with vice —a declaration that there should he but one test, whet ever the cause of destitution.—(Hear, hear.) He call d upon the House to pause before they a .nctioned such it principle. Had it been promulgated by the Commissioners he would not have been surprised, but when such a declaration came from a leading Member of the Cabinet, he was totally at a loss to know how he could place anv further confidence in the Government. Mr. GROTE said that was not the moment for commenting on the speech of the Noble Lord the Secret try for the Colonies the other evening, otherwise he should say that he never iu his life listened to a speech which he more thoroughly con curred in. —(Hear, hear.) He felt the strongest admi• ration of the steadfastness and the courage with which the Noble Lord persevered in what he believed to be th e oily true and humane manner of dealing with the poor and with pauFerism, in spite of the temporary eiblequy which had been thrown upon him.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member behind him desired that the medi cal cflicer of every Union should have unlimited power, to order medical relief and sustenance of the most ex pensive kind without the possibility of the guardians or Commissioners correcting or disallowing such an oeler, in tfie event of their believing it to be unnecessary. Why, if that doctrine were established the medical officer of the union would become the real distributor of relief. Colonel WOOD said in the Staines Union the me dical officer was hell to be responsible not only for the medicinesebut for the diet he gave to the poor.—(Loud cries of " Spoke, spoke.") He was not aware of the meaning of the cry. The SPEAKER had a strong recollection of the Hon. and Gallant Member speaking of houses not being heated with warm water.—(Laughter.) Mr. EAST HOPE was of opinion that all medical officers under the Poor-law ought to have the power of dealing with the sick poor as they pleased. They were entirely under the control of the guardians; if they were too lavish in their treatment, it would only be for a week or a fortnight, when the guardians had the power of suspending them from their functions. In his opinion all tnedier.l affieets ought to be unfettered in the dis. charge of their duties. Mr. W. ATT WOOD said the case which had been detailed in the House that evening was enough to jus• tify him, and those who opposed the Bill altogether— it was that of a poor person, guilty of no crime but poverty, sinking under sickness and disease, yet the medical officer did not feel himself justified in effordiag that relief which sinking misery required without the consent of the board of guardians. Yet this was a system which the Member for the City of London supported. He had no doubt that that and many similar cases bad arisen from the strong language indulged in by the Commissioners, which hal been condemned by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and had not been defended by any one, Mr. WARD said he was astonishel to hear any Hon. Member so misrepresent the statements of the Hon. Member for the Cty of London. He felt inclit el to call them wilful misstaternents.—(Cries of " Order.") If he had used any unparliamenta-y lan guage, he, of course, withdrew it.—(Hear, hear.) But his Hon. Friend only contended that the medical officer should be amenable to the board of guardians, yet he was charged with inhumanity. In the district with which he was connected the medical officer or dered whatever he considered requisite for his pa- Ceres ; of course lie accounted to the guardians, but in no case, up to the present moment, had he been found fault with. At one time a low fever broke out in the Bishops Stortford Union, when the poor were treated with all that was necessary, even to the amount o: 81, 4/., or 5/. a week for a family. Tt,at was a case within his own knowledge, and spoke well in favour of fie now Poor-law. M. W. ATTWOOD understood the Hon. Mem ber to have withdrawn the charge made against turn, and therefore had nothing to say on that head. As for nesrepresent of present, figs of the any kind, ind, he was glad he was in the recollection Mr. COURTENAY was not one who had ever courted popularity at the expense of his feelings of jus tice and right, or he might have indulged in abuse of the Pour liw Bill, considering the feelings which per vaded his constituents. The evils of the old system were enormous, and he respected the moral courage of the Ministry who attempted to grapple with such a subject. Tne evils were enormous, and it was neces sary to probe the wound deeply. He was in favour of tire law, but he could not shut his ears or his heart to wh,t had taken piece under it in the Bridgewater Union. He did not think it was enough that the sur geons shoul I have tire power to give wine or other ne cessaries. He thought he ought to be unrestricted alto;;, ther in his treatment of the sick poor. In Oct. 1836, an epidemic of a dangerous kind broke out in Bridgewater; it raged to excess, and vast numbers were ill. The medical men said it was absolutely ne cessary that there should be a change of diet to those who had not been attacke I 'with the disease, in order to save them ; they asked for merely a change from water-gruel to rice milk : that was alt they asked for ; hut the guardians refused the change ; they said they had not the power to interfere with the dietary laid down for their guidance by the Poor-law Commissioners. He was no enemy to the Poor-law, but he could not but let the House know how it worked ; that great enormities took plies: in consequence of too rigid an a•therence to the letter and not the spirit of the law. He trusted when any iafcctious disease existed in a poor house a change of diet would not be confined to those who were actually sick, but to those who were in a sick atmosphere. Mr. MUNTZ wished to call the attention of the ' House to the despotic power of the Poor-law Commis sioners. It bad been said that if any pauper guardians could not do as they pleased, they were not responsible. Now, if the Commissioners gave such general orders, that, from circumstances, they were likely to be misun derstood, and the death of an individual was caused thereby, they were guilty of murder. The despotic power of the Commissioners was, he insisted, most ob . ti nable No man of indepen dent mind would jec o • be come a guardian during the exercise of that power— (Opposition cheers) —and the result would be that the Poor liw guardians would be ur imately such men as woull not do that justice which the House required they should. With respect to tlse say diet surgeons , before the House, he woul i q uestion immediately when it was necessary to pre scribe for paupers , ought not to wait until the board of guar dians approved of the prescription. , recollected that the people now-a-days were not such as those who used to be re lieved under the Act It should be of Elizabeth. The people were n ow willing to labour if they could get employment. The law ought to he altered in such a way as that me n of good feeling and independent mind would become guardians. 11. e House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. On the let clause, referring to the continuance of the p o wer of tire Conamissioners for five years, being ropoied, . Mr. EASTHOPE rose to move an amendment, 11, i I thought that five years was too long a period during which to consign the family of the poor to the Commis sinners, and l!e wou!d beg to propose As an amendment to substitute the figures 1843 instead of 1846 in the clause•. Mr. BERNAL said that one Honourable Mom. brr had proposed as an amendmant to the sane cruse the substitttion of the words 1843, another the words 1842, and another the words 1841. It was for the Committee to decide which of those amendments he should put fist—whether Le should hegin with the smaller number or with the greater. He was in the hands of the Committee, aud let them decide. Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that he would op pose the amendment. Mr. BERNAL wished the Noble Lord to address himself to the immediate question before the Committee as to which of the Luml.ers he should fist propose. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentleman had proposed an amendment wh ch he (Lord J. Rus sell) thought he ought to state his intertinn of opposing. Afterwards a deiult - n-y conversation took place as to which of f'ic numbers should be first put from the Chair, Mr. BERNAL, in ens.ver to a question from Mr. E tsthope, said that he had end, avow to state the ase as clearly as possible. The matter to be decided wa , . whether the numbers proposed should stand part of ti.e ques' inn. Sir J. GRAHAM said tat if the effect of the com mitting a bill pro lorma would be to fill up the blinks it would be an important change. He was not prepared to assent to a doctrine, now mooted for the first time, and which was contrary to the opinion of the Chairman, and of those most conversant with the practice of the House.. Lard JOHN RUSSELL said he had always un derstood that a Btl could not go through Committee without the blanks being filed up. Practically he did nct see that there would be much difference in the plan proposed. Alt -r a few words from Mr GOULBURN and Mr FIELDEN, Mr GROTE said he understood the questien to be put, " That the words 46 stand part of the Bill," to which an amendment had been moved by the - lion. Member for Leicester (Mr Easthope) to the effect that the words 43 should be substituted for 46. To that question he proposed to address himself. He trusted that neither the Noble Lord nor the House would be induced to accede to any proposition to shorten the time below five years. He was quite as sensible as the Hon. Member for Oldham that they were now dealing with a question of very great importance to the wel fare of a large portion of the community, and not only one of great importance but of considerable excitement ; and he most say, that to him that excitement was an additional reason why they ought not to reduce this period to the short time proposed by the amendment. He could not bonder that gentlemen who, like the Hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Fielders) and the lion. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley ) disapproved al:o• gether of the working of the Bill, and conceived it to be injurious to the welfare of the people, should be dis posed to restrict the duration of the authority of the Commissioners to two y care, or one year, or even a shorter period. But he should be much surprised if this should turn out to be the opinion of gentlemen in that House who has not come to that conclusion, who had net made up their minds that the law was injurious, but cocsid, red it to stork well, and in a wholesome mea tier, as he (Mr. Grote) bel eyed, or, at least, not in such a manner as should induce than to condemn it at once, a conclusion which appeared to him would be incon sistent with a shorter term than five years. What was impliel in fixing a period of five years ? It was not like creating an irrevoi able le Ise of property which they could not enter upon until the ex piration of five years. They woull still have the power to interpose it they saw good cause to put an end ter the Commission. He conceived that this Commis sion was naturally, and by the necessity of the case, determinat le at the wiil of Parliament. Gentlemen appeared to forget the annual vote for the sa'aries of the Commissioners in the Estimates, and that it was camps tent for the House, by a single vote on that occa sion, thus to put an end to this Commission without the concurrence of the other House of Parliament. He confessed it did not appear to him necessary to fix any specific period for the termination of the Commission, but as the House had determined that some experience should be had, and some period fixed, at the expiration of which the House pledged itself to take the whole subject of the Poor-laws into consideration, and to de termine whether the change required any, and what, modifications, he did say it was not consistent with the proper and legitimate working of the law to reduce that period lower than flue years ; and for this reason, they would weaken the law if they gave to this Cammis sion the appearance of an expiring and moribund body. If they were to continue the Commission at all, they ought to continue it for such time as would be sufficient to give the Commissioners the power necessary to dig. charge their serious and important duties, and net by frequent interposition to give them the appearance of being distrusted by Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) A great deal had been said by many gentlemen in the House respecting what. they termed the arbitrary and despotic power of the Commissioners, and it had been insisted upon, as a prominent reason why the House ought to confine this power to a period as short as one or two years. He (Mr. Grote) denied that the power of the Commissioners deserved this character. Their power was large, Lecause their dunes were onerous and comprehensive ; but the question on which the House ought b decide was, whether this power was more than sufficient—than the discharge of the duties imposed upon the Commissioners rendered necessary.—( Hear, hear.) When gentlemen talked of arbitrary power he (Mr. Grote) understood them to mean something sub jected to no legal or defini'e limits, but to r:hat extent did powers of this nature coincide with that of the Poor-law Commissioners ? Every particle of power the Commissioners enjoyed was derived from the Act of 1834, and one or two sub sequent Acts. Every one of these Acts was subject to the legal revision of the Court of Queen's B inch, by the easiest and most accessible process known to the law ; and not only that but every rule and order of the Poor-law Commissioners was liable to be disallowed by the Queen's Counsel. And not only was there this legal seeerity, but, what was of great importance, there was the moral restraint under which the Commissioners exercised their powee. All their acts were public, formal, and open to criticism, which, to say the least of it, was severe, if not acrimonious. Every act of the Poor-law Commissioners was subject is the severest scrutiny, and liable to bring them in collision with I ersons in influential stations, and to create them ene mies in all quarters ; and moreover in case of any impu tation of mistake or misconduct, there was no authority in tie State that could so little hope for countenance or sympathy in anything like party influence or party feeling. No.v, if gentlemen would discard thane express sions, and apply their minds to the real facts of the as e, they would see that this power did not deserve the appelation of arbitrary and despotic. If the power of the Poor-law Commissioners was arbitrary, what was that of Justices of the Peace, who derived their power from one hundred Acts which were construed in their favour in the most liberal manner in the Courts of law ?—(Hear, hear.) The House would re member that the power of subordinate legislation which the Hon. Member for Oldham said imparted to the law its unconstitutional character, must be lodged somewhere, and if they distrusted the Commissioners, it must be given to Justices of the Peace, to guar dians, or to the Secretary of State. That power was, he contended, requisite for carrying on the law. It exii ter] under the old system, end he put it to Hon. Gentlemen whether they had not at the present mo ment vastly increased the security for the avoidance of Anse, and the furtherance of the real and true intent of the promoters of the law. He did say that the House would not do justice to its own intention if they did nit continue the law under circumstances favour able to its working, and if they consented to reduce fat; ti:ne of duration of the Commission to any period shorter than five years. If they should acquiesce in a shorter time the effect would be that they would pare the authority of the Commissioners for good pur poses much mare than for evil purposes.—(Hear, hear.) If they created in the public mind the belief that these Commissioners had not the confidence of Parliament, but were distrusted and discountenanced, their .autho rity would thenceforward be neglected and it would be thcu e ht by their opponents that they had only to run the duration of their resistance against the life of the Commission to contend successfully. He said therefore that by shortening the Commission, they would deprive the Commissioners of that just authority without which it would be impossible for them to discharge their duty with satisfaction or advantage. He thought this reason was the test possible reason why the Hon. Member for Oldham should vote for the amendment, but at the same time that- it tvas the best possible reason why it should be resisted by those who wished to support the law in its present efficiency.—(Cheers.) Mr. HODGSON HINDE said he was greatly surprised at the speech of the Honourable Mem ber (Mr. Grote), from which he inferred that the Honourable Member had never read the . Act of Parliament by which the Commission was created, and that he bad had no practical experience of the working of the Poor-laws. 'rne Hen. Member denied that the power of the Commissioners was arbitrary, since their rules might be set aside by the Queen in Council, but the Cemtnissioners had found the way to set aside the orders of the Queen in Council alt )(settler, by making ord ers whi c h did no t come under the name of general rules.—( Hear, hear.) He did not stand there to dispute whether the power possessed by Justices of the Peace was arbitrary or not, but could not the Hoe, Gent'eman draw a distinction between arbitrary power in administering the law, anti arbitrary power in making it ? There were doubtless many evils under the old system, but if a person violated the law, he might have been called to account for it. tae lel cued that if on the second readirg the House had tee laboured under the delusion that if they rejected the present measure they should necessarily return to the old one. :he resift r.f the division would be very different from titto 1 b en. He should conclude with these ie., : rusiks, which had Leon drawn from him by the eatraordi s nary speech of the Hon. Member for London, Mr. WA KlaF t Y said that he bad listened with great astonishment to the speech of the Hon. Member for Lop (lor, and he hoped that Hon. Memb,)r w,,uld not be c'ast,:tel by the Noble 1.. , rd among the miichicv.,us dema • gogues for London.—( A laugh.) At present he did not himself know where to class the, Her.. Member ; but he would i edeat that he bad been astonished at the speech 113 had made. The Hoe. Gentleman was an advocate lir tie continuance of the Commi•sicn 1,,r five years. But had the Hon. Gentleu:a•r adduced any argument to show that it could ope:ate beneficially for the country ? There had been some : abstract reasons adduced; but where were the particular illus'ra ions to show that the Commission nad worked well during the last four or five years, or to show that it was likely to work well for the next five years? When the Commission had - been established it was understood that the law was to establish a new order of things, and some new functions of an ex trasrdinary charwt r and peculiar na'ure were designed to beige' it into execution. The law had been in existence since 1834; and they were now in the year 1841 without having obtained the result; they anticipated. The Com mission had been ere a•ed for the purpose of cresting uni f amity in the working of the Poor-law. The decisions of : the May,istrates wsre so various, so chequcted and div.lsified, so repugnant to common sense and the prin.- cip;ea of humanity—those were the doctrines of the day—. ti:at the Poor- lew Commi:siosers v - ere to be created far the purpose of producing throughout the land a uniform wort lig snd a uniform system. Now where were the general rules applicable to all unions? Was there one such rule ? No. They were still, in his belief, as far from having one general rule applicable to the Poor-law established as when the Commission had been first intro duced. But the Commissioners had been to work ; they I al done something—plenty of mischief as he had heard. But they had incorvrated into unions 13,000 parishes. How many more were there still to be incorporated ? Only 700. Let them try that fact by the rule of three. If in six years the Commissioners had been enabled to in corporate 13,000 pa i,hes would it take them five years more to incorporate 700? Why, they might have al ready incorporated many of the remaining unions. They would certainly mest with obstacles in some quatters. All the unions in the metropolis were not yet incorporated, thanks to the mischisvous demag gues, in some of its parishes. —( Hear, heir.) Things were getting into a pretty pass in that House on the subject of the Poor-laws. He had often regretted that there war not some place in the House in which Members who were not connected with any of the great leading patties could locate theinselv,2s, and se at the nseives nee, esionally as neutrals. He had often felt great inconvenience and an noyance under the yresent state of things. He had no ' desire to associate on that (the Ministerial) side of the House with Noble Lords, and it appeared Noble Lords ' bad no desire t> a4sociate with him.—( A laugh.) But he could assure Noble Lords that wlntever contemptuous feeling they might entertain towards him—however much they might clout the truth of his statements—howev , tr much they might presurr e to queetion what he had ad: vanced in that House—however much they might be in- dined to treat him with contempt, he could a;sure them without ill-humour that he could return the compli meet ; and if he wanted to establish a character ei . b the people of this country, he could assure them be would never acply to thsm f r a recommendation of his worthiness. He thought it most unfair in Noble Lords to cast out in their observations any insinuations against the veracity of a person who in point of family distinction was their ink tier. But when the people had thought fit to send a 'nee to that House who had obtained his scat neither by corruption nor family intl.:gee—mid it was not the roan that was treated with disrespect, for he scorsed such a supposition—but it was treating those who had soot him there with disrespect, to use unfounded in sinustions ; and such a circumstance showed clearly that those who made such insinuations had yet to learn what was true liberty, or what were the just claims of the people.—( Hear, hear.) If his family had been so costly to the nation as the tarnili!s of some men—( Hear, hear) —if he had weight in that House—in c insequence of the s-eight of public metal in his pocket—then tie might be treated with more respect ; but he should say it was not proper—it we, not just—i: was not consistent—it was not manly to throw out insinuations against an individual who had been the archi ect, who had been the framer of his own reput scion and fortunes. —( Hear, hear.) It was by labour, by constant and zealous labour, that he had ac quired the honour and distinction of a seat is that House, and he hoped that while he was there he would be tried by tl e majority c f tee House, by his conduct in the House, leiod that if he did nought unworthy of his position, nor mate any sta - emeat that was untrue, he would receive a suffi eisnt reward is the consciousness that he had discharged his duty. Wow statement had he made that had been re futed? But the Noble Lord asked whether his st itements hel been substantiated ? They had, however, been suffi ciently substantiated by the fact that they had still remained contradicted. These were parties erough which would have felt it their interest to contradict him if he had stated anything that had been untrue. It was necessary for him to say that he bad made no statement for the pur pose of obtainieg a miserable and grovelling popultarity. With resl.ect to the kind of popularity which men might be desirous of acquiring, there would be a difference of opi nion. For his pat he wished to obtain popularity by stating what was true, and by duly discharging his duties in the House. He bad no desire to obtain (any other kind of popularity ; and be was sure he would receive a sufficient cite ck in the House if he were to make the attempt. The statements be hal made that night had an immediate bea - - ing on the continuan:e of the Commission, and had been alluded to by various 14ernbers. What were the intentions of the Commissioner ? Did they wish that the poor should le benefited or that the poor should be coerced? Did they wish that the guardians should be checked is the exorcise of thc ir powers and that a uniform system should be introduced? The results of their - operations inspired him with doubts on these subjects. When a statement of any particular kind was made in that House he invariably observed that a dozen c entlemen started up and said the-e could he no such thing, as in all the cases that bad come under their comi derwion there was nothing but kindness and liberality in the workirg of the law. The Hon. Member for Shef field would have given them to understand from his speech of that evening that there was nothing but uniformity in the system. But he (Mr. Wakley) held in his hand the last amended rules for workhouses, which were dated in August last; and in those rules he found an especial re ference made to the power of the medical officers and the treatment of the sick. The Honourable Member for Sheffield had stated that the medical officer had ti e power for the week of ordering anythir g he pleasel. The 17th rule, however, That the p upers of the respective sexes would be dieted with the food and in the manner described in the dietary tables hereto annexed, and in no other manner." That was the 17th rule. The proviso to it was as follows :—" Provided, however, the medical officer may direct in writing such diet far any individual pauper he may think neesssi:ry ; and the master shall report such direction to the board of guardians, who will sanction or disallow them at their discretion." If, then, the medical officer recommended wine, meat, end other such nourish ment to his patients, the master of the workhouse caul l not comply with his injunctions. Mr. Johnson, the go vernor of the Base ford Union, had stated in evidence he had given, that the board of guardians had made a rule that no wine, beer, ale, or stimulants, should be given without the sanction of the board That wss in the book; of the guardians, and it was only is comp i ince with the order of the Commissioners themselves. Thera regulations might not have been f illoael in certain in stances. The truth was that there was nothing bat dis orelt r instead of uniformity in the preset operati in of the few; and surely that was no ground for coetinuivg the powers of the Commissioners fir five years more. Under the circumstances it was their duty to make the duration of tine Commissioners as short as possible, and to take the duty cf further legislating on the matter upon themselves, and not leave it in the hands of three irresponsible agents whose past conduct he c emended had given nothing but dissatisfact i on to the people. Mr. HAWES said, as he had originally given his support to the Bi l in its introduction into the House, and at he had closely wa'clied the op; ration of the mee sure, he would not he induced by any fear of unpo pularity to swerie from the opinion he had formed, aed which had daily gained adai tonal strength in his mind. He was bound to say, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Finsbury, that he ` closely subscribed to the spceeheb of the Noble Lord, the Member fee- Northumberland, the Noble Lord, the Secre tary fur the Colonies, and the Hon. Member Cr London. The many evils of the old system should not be forgotten. It should be rememtered that in for Mer times Mr. Can nieg had declared that it was no fault of a Government if it left the Poor-law untouched, from the extent. and complication of the evils which surrounded it ; and is the year 1830, a Noble Lord, then Mr. Baring, said that he saw no means whatever to cope with the demoralization and difficulty in which the country was involved by the ex istiig state of the Poor.laws. He did not hold economy to be the best part of the present measure, becauso the most important part in his opinion was that which established some control over the operation cf the law. The old system was, in truth, in many cases one of torture and barbarity ; for under its sanction the old and the young, the vicious and the virtuous, were huddled together with. out order and ellessifisation. They could not return to that liw ; but t' ey were told at the same time they might overturn the present one. He thought that many unjust complaints had been made against the existing system. He would instance as a testimony to the nature of its work ing what had happened in the Union of Richmond in Sur rey, which was p ; it.l by the guardians as a matter of course. For eight weeks there were expenses for extra diet for wine, brandy, arrow -root, sago, and isinglass, and that was not a saiitary instance. It was an every .1 occurrence, arid he would appeal for the truth of that assertion to every gewleman present who was a member of a board of guar d ans.—(Cheers.) What had been the conduct of the Hon. Member under the old law ? Had he ever raised his voice as the fr end of the poor against the abuses of the old system ? He would justify the Lew law upon this ground—that bring administered by responsible officers, lehtifisd with the Government of the day, the most inte rest was excited, and public observation drawn to the ad reilistration of the law, sveLli never had Lees, and never could have teen, attracted to it, while the administration of it was scattered and divided among fourteen or fifteen thousand independent bodies. He would defend the exist ence if 1113 Commission on popular grounds—( Hear, hear) —because tl is was the first time that the administration cf this enormous fund had been placed ia the hands of resa ponsible officers, and from that moment the administration of that fund had become an object of close and vigilant attention from the public, from which it had before been free.—(Cheers.) Under the old system, with fourteen or filteen thousand independent and irrespon viola bodies administering this enormous fund, th ere could be no security for the public. Honourable Mem bers seemed to have forgotten the enormity of the cv:l they bad had to deal with. The ,::: l , l :, !!ht .. P .:L able Baronetno-tar that as relief they forget increased t r i e s p e h i o n u e s r s e l a :y eb ; l i d n 813Chioro:wilada , the Member for Tame inehamshire, wht:,?.l3 She rrl of had been arl ,,, u.i , tocd in sech aa nes that at le tigta the rates e bt x hii r te ei k i a i i e re. . i l sr i t i wh e e ats - i c e u efee . t owf.t np faunndd? ethera s drho f(4 e wages se q e o n e e e r s e s f t ; uncoltiyated is facts there was no pa r i s h. Thi s was not MORNING EDITION'. a class question at all—it was a ques tion of vital im p orts a., e to the whole country, for all were must deeply i i. li t : ;. (: On ' trgh d t t i h n e 'Deed largely upon the credulity the tio n . w 011 Memberb ei r g fur the Finsbury poor. —(Cl.e e; s . ) .'" stated that he had heard nothing but mere abstrett u"" clamati.no in the speech of the Hon. Member for London —that there was nothing practical in it. What ! was there no proof of the practical effects of the new law in tie I' o f iste creased a:tcntion which had everywhere been paid ,endition. to the improvement of the moral and physical state ef ofhis imentsrt, rbisweherleice of the peole tow their educati t the their dwellings, nd to those on sanat o ery questions which had never been discussed until the care of the poor r . hal been committed t a public and responeible officers The Reports of the Poor-law Commissioners showed that under the new liw wages had risen, and greater attentive had been paid to the moral and physical condition of t he poor than had been at any former period. Let Hon. M ei n bers lock et a neighbouring country, Scot land, where the administration of the Poor-laws was not ends r the surf' . vision of some regulating power. He had gone o ever tie Scot ill capital in conapanv with an inter! gent and he mane physician, and he dec.ared befete God that i ter in his life had he seen such a mass t f mi.( ry and ei. re. l -in d ' Let them not talk of the hardship cf the law in Eets it was nothing compared with the administr ation of the la° in Scotland—there relief was doled out in frscti e ns, ia some instanci , s at the rate of 2'. 6!. a mooth. The pt , or 6er uct. o. ,g f were sinking tirJugh neglect, e nd throughout th e they were calling for some such superintendence as h ad been established in England With regard to medical afitel by the 54th clause of the Peor. law Act, in all cases .° emergency, medical reli f night be ordered by kg,,",, trates, without waiting for bcaols of guard ians, or by '- relieving officer. There never had been the same eena of furnishing relief under the old law. There was now _.l system of furnishing medical relief ; und er the oldl law_ there was none. The proptx way t ) discuss the Di. fro' by comparing the old law will; the new one. relief Thfe 01 . again, it had been stated that all out-doortt was refused; aid a great deal had been of the hardship of forcing families into the workhomle Now, the fact was, that tour-fifths of all the relief so: given was really out .door relit f. If Hen. Gea.inie wished for more, they had better abolish wor khouse s f ' 10 3 : gether. It hid been staeed the: no o w-door re lie el granted. Now, what was the fact ? At the present_er: meat the number of paupers receiving in-door Te ret Ws; 126,519, and the number receiving out-door reli f , 71 r 818,613 ; so that the greater part were receiving out-o O's relief. Hon. Members, who had expressed their tin•ai probation of the Poor-law Bill, had adverted to some I n ; provel system ; but they had net s'ated what that syslat,.. was, or how it was to be continued, without seine "PL. intending control. Under the old Poor-law some I 'o, riches had exhibited an enlightened system of wed men;, but their example had not been followed ; a ti. there had been nothing to ensure the uninterrupted nefntbe nuance of such entghtened systsm of management, for I tie d person entrusted with the management (Stile poor hetWeit„;, to die, the parish relapsed into the old sys tem of inisfii,o nagement. Superintendence was the only 111;4 to 'the. stability to any plan. —( Hear, hear.) lie defended s, m Conicsion on popular principle:. —(Cherrto) It 5 er e the only way in which a sufficient control could bce%e_f cised ov, r the administration of five or six money. If the Hon. Member for Fursbury tvO id r oe the accounts of the old workhouses, and visit the u n ~...e workhouses, he would be struck wits the favourable Om tract presented by the latter.—(Cticers.) weether sti b question was a popular one or not, was a Me t er r bad which he had nothieg to do.—(Cheers.) Heine ve. noll held, and he never would hold, a seat in that ouse t i r o . any such tenure.—( Loud cheese.) If he held the g a t 0 tion to be right on prim iple, he hoped and trusted tea t as long as he held a seat in that House he should par s " I bis own inlependeet course, not that he believed that ortisrs, occason he had any thing to fear in making- this (W oo l millionsera Lion, for he tnough: that the great mass out of ecots were possessed of greater intelligence than the ogeisieil of the BM gave them credit for, and would re t be Iv a 'Oll by the sweeping imputations which had b ores cat gag the suppott.rs of this. measure. lie was Fertec t LY t t it ott• to share with the Noble Lord the Member fA . ile r i 'ity of beriend, nod I is lion. Friend the Memler for the "" 0 - 0 ; 1 9 • London, al) , unpepul itity which rrieht be th e t ., o - reve c i i , queries! of supporting a reerieve which he aeri l Y `Th i etreo had conferred 1...rg,r trle, , siegt en the poor and , ee ls- hei greeter stability to the or, Fe ty of the .country tbAn , ' ever bt ea brought fel-Nerd.— (Cheers. ) to Mr. T. DUNCOMBE entreated the House roil, before they give one day lone er continuance tote, ut os missionirs. Toe Hon Geetleman had defended ot ea popular grounds. lie (Mr. T. 0.) a tacked "aloof popular grounds, on grounds mo-t dear t r thudert, tbo this country, the rig t to self-gevernment ti „„ 0 09. —( L right o o , f uj e c t h n e tr e e r l s over) These vtere really popular egor th:•expendit ire ut th e it ow 7 , n 0 00 and so they would be proved to be whenev er $ tittierld should venture to go t ) a-,other general e lecliav• - ; ( o r e e ch e rs.) Neither the U.n. Member for Lood o l2 .y erl Hon. Member for Lambeth bad bought f or ce - u l a ' Al guttent for continui .g the Commission five Ye 4 ,7 t iese n their arguments we it to show the. it should be 0 . 0- i a , $ 4 in perpetuity, and they ought to Ia e i r 'posed Oa ft e amendment to the Noble Lord's 1 reposi io n ' i t efe 3 Poor-dew Commissioners therm elves had reeornalfole it in their Reports, and he theught flerfo-tbrif Gentleea had sea-cely done them justice. d are rn Repott they stated in the mo t modest 80 ,ci `reps aiming way, that Parliameot was too much Og,' ( 1,7 other matters that it had not time to attend to tP b e a , all ref parochial legislation. It would appear frote,! o to •"' Parliament did not think the people worth at eou' ll ' e fffi rg (Oh, oh.) That they were so engrossed with the co uld parishes,ni o e b t . j u a r t i t negn and to dt s t. he e t , h . e welfareTw♦• ial They y t s a o t f id t u' comforts e'y e o of the East, and of France, and America, that the h Y Ou sa portant that there should be some body between, d , b irtir a went on t r state that li the - par liament and the peoFle to issue orders in 8 ' e l, cat form ; so that they were to have a kind of fou r ' bile td to legislate for the re epic, which dii not apPe" r t n e b t err e " be very complimentary to Parliament. 114 - e at re v. otfhimrtielen,nt;:so! :alba, further, that the style adopted in Acts of Parliel ti e r e d dered them hardly intell , gible to persons wh ) a„„cesaj" ceived a legal education ; and hence it WO - , - u tsd t e , that some competent authority should be ai i ,q - 1300% / 0 expound the intentions of the Legislaeure.--44- et to'f It did not appear, however, that these gentlemsoo o very explicit in their own accounts and c riers. , a te-d e f the clauses were such as to bear one construett°The we and another to-morrow. But if such an autborybool necessary in the Poor-law Bill, why should theY, n ; WO' a similar one with regard to the Municipal Bilsloweet' were there not three Lord Mayors sitting at "ob t ha d house, or a dozen itinerant Aldermen going t u hr a bell ev o e t country to expound the law ?—( A laugh) 0 0e-- the Poor-law would act much more setisfectorilY,,t Dav the present Central Board. The lion. isnoa both had asked what would be substituted. ead his of t ' be was, Leave it to the good sense and discretioet kieei Boards of Guardians. Was it to be sail at night. ee Members such as had addressed the House that Go who had avowed themselves members of Bo2rda,eiciiot3 as not to know how to expound the law, dians—was it to be supposed that they were snel!, to n',o' an d that I" t ied 1., ce,sary for them to have Assistant-Commissioetr t hat t" their tells ?—( Hear, and laughter.) H e brlisv e o f Fe& seas the intention of the gentlemen end fdr itier j if 11 7,e land to administer the law carefully and ft i r ;ber t it, were only left to themselves. Tie Hon. ; et, i% Lambeth found fault with his Hon. Ce lte l d te rier • e ; Wakley, for calling the workhouses plac es c to t he e Why, they were nothing else, and in additien old suer' . stances that had already been repeated, be ; to t a res 4o .",l; them a case from Yorkshire, in wh:cb Tbernaae priCo wi .i . a mesterei the workhouse, was charged by Ser4" th e ' C 9 assaulting assaulting and ill using her; he was fined VP- hi ed 1 b Or b , t a•es, who, in pronouncing their judgmerar fl, at iou th t t o could not refrain from pronouncing their o P,. la s te aen e ; to defendant had not conducted himself ill su e " ;bt li' d to he ought to have done; they thought be had retir e "; of have visited the female moms after the, P a- e ar e , ' " 0, rest ; ncr should he have used the indelieatwas. Hop' taking the pauper down t )tt:e cell naked as a b t e m s gig .. t e 7 o o Members might thick nu thing of that, a nd t „ d i s c , be added that t.e had not exercised in beating breast of the complainant, as he had rte the * \ 4l l/0 Let any Hon. Member read th it, and say th a t t or ,) -be a sounifet sitoitio. houses were not places of torture.—( Hei r, Ericad° to-elt it any satisfaction to thepoor stollen or her ot thick it 0 o r told that the master was p fined 20s. ? He or 6° bad' - 4/ er that under the old system anything hal ad bad, f tbe Ir of pres-ive, had been kill teed. He disapprevea ° 0 irlO r ta d conferred on the Commissioners, because it cas e /r the a pe and despotic, and of little use. Loek at the : e ., i f ; :Ca beer, stated by the Hon. Member for Bridg e " . se° e l, peered that dysentery prevailed in the woboustr3 ell • fns og oi G. 7 se guardians wished to give the paupers rice , s „,. se a t i They wrens to the Commissioners in (Wee:- ' t hat 7 . ,,d crived no answer until April, and the result l e b e lie; cf the unfortunate pooplc lost their live P i.„• a ri l „,„ i joil C the law would work well without the t' a— t .rieut t s lie wished, at all events, to see the experimq _. q 0 e so far as his vote went it would go to i• 1 01 , pensive, arbitrary, and despotic a system• the res 0 ,1 Mr. DARBY doubted very much o i s seber ..est ien 11 ‘ , 1 . 0 hion of the House could be taken upon the g ro u 11 ,i s sioo t ' llo belcre it, as to the time during which the C°•.pnieg rf sho e_ . eu e. were to be continued. He was anxious, by b oo ,jou es , time for the continuance of the Your-law t he l el in office, to give Parliament a control over P° We r ! tensive powers they at present possessed a the r e ht Mr. HAMILTON was in favour of lireitinefie 00400 of the Commissioners to a very short p riod- _ i r i l ai g se a bo 't two years quite long enough. He was a s ton _ ste m, , 4 , t old aj f tr' discoutoue other Member to return t , the es , 1: cf toe _.,. ou t o he was convinced that men would rather starrfoilier•ero workhouses then pine away in them with the Sir G. STRICKLAND thought that befeoroetotinheiiol, r equired for the continuance of the Poor -law goo d Oft the Commissioners would have do ne all the .• tl a expected of them. b s fore it, Mr. VILLIERS defended the But i tr ade f° House aeainst the anaelts relish had bee" 0 1 especially by the Members fir c.nsburye ~f to . f• Mr. W. ATT WOOD said the advecaleo! the u1d?,.)0. were oblged to thrust in all the worst a s , lsr hair,crori;werly If —(Hess, hear.) The torn, il order to justify that. which was u" le . d boll I -oo "r dire, c 2 ere t l e .!. 0 given up, and they now rested ther b e old I= a t the abases which had occurred under t rn ,_ ‘; ,„ e rs ti _itf was for restricting the powers of the Com e lb_ opp ort P ' shorter period, that the House might have th of frequent reeisi ov. pc iet c 1• ce nome ha sir e v ile Mr. HUTTON supper el the dame. et. • Mr. MUNTZ had heard no sufficient r eeso; 00 te er Mr. B. WOOD spoke in f tending the Dn.''' . f the r easons g ive a oP ft ir ...rs. 0 r.e o e vers• d by fi s ' nr ollY , i your er ":,,, am end': e i or T o .....ement which would be cause h e same P ' Cow' . duce them to vote she supplies for t . the a sot" he heard some better reason for contooticog Le 0 01 . to sion lie would be quite at a loss to knowyb_snri:a„, and period. That was an argument which sbudi,inoqd. ti_sity Strangets viv re Vien otderecl to $ tv 13 6 For toe amendment '........... .......... I_, ..... 743_ Agsinst E ...• ............................ 9 House eivieci, when the e appeared—. Majority ........ ... C 1