The Sun. — London, England, 1841-09-28 00:00:00

MORNING SUN IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Sept. 27. TheLoRD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'Clock. The Duke of SOMERSET presented a petition from a district of the metropolis, praying that the tolls might be taken off the metropolitan bridges. Lord HAWARDEN presented a petition to the same effect from the merchants, bankers, and traders of London. PRISONS. Lord BROUGHAM rose to call the attention of their Lordships to a motion which, as he understood it would not be opposed, he should do in as few words as possible. The subject was one of great importance, and one in which the House had always expressed the greatest interest—he meant the management of the prisons of the realm. Their Lordships were aware that in 1835, when the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth was First Minister, an Act was passed, the object of which was to amend the laws relating to the disci pline of prisons, and to make them, as far as was practicable, uniform throughout the country. He was ready to admit that very great improvements had been effected by that law, but, nevertheless, some time afterwards a Committee was appointed to devise further improvements, of which the system was evidently capable.—(Hear.) A Committee was accordingly appointed, who examined witnesses, among whom were many prisoners, and made a very valuable report to their Lordships. Out of that report pro ceeded the Act of 1835, for the improvement of prison discipline, by which very considerable alterations and improvements were effected. The principal alteration in that Act was, giving the Secretary of State much larger powers of revising, approving, and re jecting the rules for prisons made by the local Magistrates ; giving the Secretary of State the power also of making rules himself, and of inspecting prisons by himself, or others appointed by him, and, above all—and that appeared to him the most im portant point—giving him the power to appoint inspectors, who were authorised to examine the state of the prisons, and to report to that House. In consequence of that appointment, six Reports had been made annually by the inspectors, and those Reports contained a body ot useful information, not only to the overnment—the Home Department, but those Re ports, pointing out from time to time breaches F the rules of the prisons, and suggesting a eriety of matter for the consideration of the Home )epartment, and also making a variety of complaints sgainst the different officers engaged in the manage eeent of the different prisons, the result had been, that in a very great majority of instances, .he subject-matter of complaint had been re nioved by the parties against whom the complaint had teen made, and those complaints no longer existed. He (Lord Brougham) was very far from thinking no good had been done by the appointment of tese inspectors ; on the contrary, he thought great good had been accomplished. It appeared to him that those officers had most faithfully performed their duties. They had had a most delicate and difficult task imposed upon them; they had to hear thecomplaints of persons who were officers of the prisons, and in some instances were against Magistrates themselves, and also against those persons who were entrusted with the - management of prisons ; nevertheless they had performed their duties in a very satisfactory manner ; and no person could read the latter Reports (he alluded to the 4th, sth, and 6th) without being satisfied that the complaints made on the Ist and 2d Reports had the effect of remedying the evil and correcting the abuse. In a vast majority of cases the evils complained of had been corrected by the visits of the inspectors. In some cases the evils had not been corrected, and the inspectors had reported in vain ; but in the generality of cases those I:eports had been productive of the greatest good. He was. about to state a few instances to show the neces sity of further interference on the part of the Secretary of State, and in calling their Lordships' attention to that part of the subject he should avoid stating either the names of individuals or even the names of the prisons re ferred to, and his reason for so acting was, that at that late period of the Session those statements would be dissemi nated throughout the country, and a publicity would be given to them which it would be impossible for any other persons to hope to 'equal, and the conse quence would be that for the next three or four months, those persons against whom their complaints might be made would have no opportunity of being heard in their defence, or even of offering any explanation of their conduct with anything like the publicity with which those charges would have been disseminated. No doubt it might be said that he was speaking of things which had already appeared in print in the Inspector's report, but not one hundredth part of the persons land read or would read them in those reports, who would read what might be stated on the subject in Parliament, more especially, if those statements contained charges against individuals. For those reasons he should abstain from mentioning any names, and content himself with laying before their Lord ships certain facts which he considered to be well worthy their attention. He had, in calling their Lordships' at tention to the necessity that existed for repealing certain dormant statutes, stated that no blame attached to the magistrates for enforcing the provisions of such statutes. His attention had been dawn to those Reports in consequence of those cases to which he had alluded ; and he found that, in what he had said on that subject, he had rather under-' ;toted than overstated the case. He had stated, that if the persons convicted in the penalty of is. and costs for having been absent from church for one Sunday without reasonable excuse—one had been in prison for sixty-one, and another for sixty-three days ; but, on referring to these reports, he found one person had been in confinment ten weeks, in consequence of being convicted in a penalty 1 Is. with 14s. costs, for having been absent from • 'lurch for one Sunday without reasonable ex • Ise. At the end of seventy days, application was mode to the Secretary of State, when he was pi.:a.sed to recommend her Majesty to pardon this man for having been absent from church for one Sunday, and he was released, after having suffered seventy days' imprisonment. He could hardly roust himself to speak of such a case, but he would say, that if anything could tend to the desecration of the Sabbath, it was such conduct as that.. He had been informed that the informations had been laid against these persons by a Magistrate, and he should expect that inquiry should be made into the subject at the Home Department. •—(Hear, hear.) • It was true that when an infor mation was proved before a Board of Justices, they could not avoid convicting, but if a Magistrate had laid these informations before other justices, for the purpose of awakening these dormant, he wished he could say obsolete, statutes, then he could not consider that the Magistrate so laying the informations was without blame. Then he had been told, by way of excuse, that these people were persons of bad character; good-for-no thing people, who had been guilty of other excesses, and that it was for the purpose of punishing them for their excesses that this dormant statute had been .evakened. Now, that appeared to him to be rather an aggravation than an excuse—for every magistrate caught to know that there was nothing more calculated to bring the administration of justice into contempt than to convict a person of one offence and sentence him for another. One great source of inconvenience was the variety that existed in the management of these prisons. In one prison a small portion of animal food was allowed to the prisoners, while in another no animal food what ever was allowed. The diet allowed to persons sentenced to hard labour was generally reported as too low, and in one particular prison it was so low that many of the prisoners were suffering from a disease, which he be thad lieved was now p ecu li ar to prisons,' although at one time d been prev a l ent i n th i s country—he meant the •en scurvy. In the case alluded to it was clear that the diet was below what it %tight to be, and the report ,1 the medical men all went to show that low diet was on e o f the principal causes of the disease. In that prison the proportio n of persons in the hospital amounted, at the time the Report was made, to ten per sons out of fifty, the total number of those in the prison ; thus, one-fifth of the inmates of the prison were in the iospital, and the medical officer of the prison had stated that such was theusual prOportion. Now, it was clear that -there must be something wrong in the prison t pea e agernent of. th e give ne so large a propor tioninmates of the hospitac ts his would not enter fur ther as into particulars, as it NV ewith reference to the pages • intention to furnish the Horne in t h e Reports in which those particulars were st . ee ; '„ t erder that those evils 'might be remedied.- a There wa s another abuse, *4116 it appearee'd ‘tO-h(linetearre.)- g . a :.,ler having an in iired a remedy, and that was the "ply of articles to the s:rest—a direct interest—in the sir hetisiheouplricishoenavetonowhhainchd . e e wa s quite clear thte. in prison. in these matters whatever, les had adver ted, h .gaoler peovided a g reat e e d te artieleg, and one r't them he particularly ree ell'eeatneY tva s beer. T:ie gaoler charged the ma 14. 4d. a gallon for • the beer, but paids r : t l es the er.ilon himself It was clearly a very great abuser' that lee should have any hand in the matter ; and it vas a still greater abuse, that he should make that eetra charge. The attendance of the officers, also, varied very much, and more than he should have supposed. In most prisons the chaplain did itie, duty. He attended not merely on Sundays %ill other days of public worship, but he visited tile prisoners in their cells, and gave them _ . cases, spiritual a d v i ce . I n t h e vas t ma jority of the then, the duty was well performed , st remarkably that • but in the reorts there s' re many exceptions. It was mo they occurred in the priseras wh ich . were most munerously filled, and whe r e , th e salaries question lain 3 were most f„,pi e , The next t f the chap -ro which he sh-„ i id r e fer was the punishment of priso ners ; erso nal - ..nd it was greatly to be regretted - that p P'.atshment, flogging, should be allowed. He _.n t1 " M to sa that in case shuld be i u1f.441,. but ean he thoug h t no o the more sparingly it was it resor t e d 0 the better. Their Lordships would observe that the punishment was inflicted publicly, and in order to deter by " a raPie, but if their Lordships would look at the Report to which he was now referring they would find that thtl exa mple could not b e said to bo a very wholsome one In that respect. Their Lordships were aware that the keeper of a prison had the power of inflicting punish ments of a lesser description, and for ordinary olfences--. ha meant breaches of prison discipline. He had the power a confinement, and one or two smaller matters of th at sort ; but for any thing beyond that, he must go before the visiting Judges. In the case to which he (Lord B. al luded, the puni s h ment was twelve dozen of lashe s , in flicted upon the complaint of the keeper, against a person who appeared to hare b een a very Ti dolls person indeed—vvh o h a d b een thirty times in ptison, but for offences connected with the game iaws, such as poaching. The individual was evidently what must be called an incorrigible person. It did not appear what' the offence was for which that punishment was given, but it seemed to be for generally refractory and mutinous conduct, without any speeial act being done to warrant the punishment. The person was : - ..0t only mutinous himself, but also encourages • the other prisoners to violate the laws of the prison. Notwithstanding twelve dozen lashes ought not to be given. Nothing could be more shocking In its effect on the rest of the community than a Magistrate suffering himself to be surprised into such conduct. A very great variety had been found to exist in the discipline of different prisons. He would state some instances of that variety, because the matter appeared to him of great conse quence with regard to ends of justice. He would take three counties, Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, and Hert fordshire, and he would show to their Lordships how great an amount of inflictions varied in the prisons of those coun ties. He took these counties merely because they were contiguous. In Bucks the number of punishments for breaches in prison discipline amounted to only one pu nishment for three persons, that was, there being 135 per sons as the average number of prisoners, the number of punishments were 43. In the next county, Berks, let him take one of the gaols, and he found that the punishments were not one to three persons, but three to two persons, that was 63 punishments to 42 persons, being 44 greater than in the adjoining county. In another gaol in the same county of Berks, the proportion got up to double, the punishments being three to one person. Then in the county of Herts, the proportions rose still higher, for there it was four punishments for one person, which was twelve times worse than in the county of Bucks. Next, in the county in which they then were, he found that in one of the prisons of the City the proportion was five punishments to two per sons. In another prison, it was three punish ments to two persons ; and, in the third prison in this city it was nine punishments to one person being six times greater than in the other prisons of the same county, and twenty-seven times greater than in the country. Now it was perfectly impos sible from the nature and the habits of the individuals that there should be such a ,differ ence in the amount of punishment. Greater uni formity ought to be observed in the administration of the prison rules, particularly as there was uniformity esta blished in the rules since 1835. He wished also to call their Lordships' attention to the fact of untried prisoners being confined in the same places with con victs, when there did not appear to be any necessity for such from want of accommodation in the prison. Several untried prisoners were also subjected to the prison dress.—(Hear, hear.) Now these were sub jects to which he wished to draw the notice of the authorities at the Home Department. There was one complaint to which he must allude of a very extraordinary nature. A prisoner stated to the Inspector that he had been illegally detained in custody, having been committed for trial at the Sessions, and having, after te lapse of some days, been called up by the keeper and told by him that he had been summarily convicted and adjudged to 12 months' imprisonment. He (Lord Brougham) thought that a very odd state of circum stances, for it looked to him very like the case of a per son who had been tried and sentenced to 12 months' imprisonment in his absence.—(Hear, hear.) The Inspector reported the case to the Secretary of State, who ordered him immediate liberation. He (Lord B.) thought that inquiry ought to be made with respect to whom the fault lay in that case. He admitted that it was quite im possible that these volumes of reports of the Inspectors could be all throughly read and acted upon by the Home Department. He imputed no blame to that de partment for not having acted upon the earlier reports; on the contrary, he was of opinion that the fittest course to take was to allow the reports to be made and laid before Parliament, in order to give an opportunity to the parties complained of to alter the course they had adopted. That course he was happy to say had been pro ductive of great good, and it was not until the present moment that it became necessary to move for the cor respondence that had taken place relative to the last Report. He (Lord Brougham) could not but express his regret at the course that had been taken in the Home-office, of diminishing the number of its legal officers, as he was sure that the appointment of So licitor to that Department would have been a saving, and not a lavish expenditure of the public money, and he was sorry that the individual who had filled that office should have thought it necessary to have relinquished that office till inquiry had been made into the subject. In the motion he was about to submit to the House he wished to state that he imputed no blame to the Home-office, and it gave him the greatest satisfac tion to bear testimony to the excellent manner in which his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby) had con ducted the business of that office. No person had ever conducted that department better than he had done, or with more firmness.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving that a humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before the House at the commencement of the next Session an ac count of any proceedings had by the Home-office, in consequence of the Sixth Report of the Inspector of Prisons, as far as it could be deemed consistent with the public service. The Duke of WELLINGTON said Parliament having reposed very great power in the Secretary of State, it was desirable that they should have full information as to all proceedings that took place under that authority. Not knowing much, personally, of the statements of his Noble and Learned Friend, he did not intend to trespass at any length upon their Lord ships ; and, without knowing exactly the details of each case, it was impossible to judge how far the interference of Parliament was necessary. If it were true that punishment such as his Noble and Learned Friend had referred to, had been inflicted, he had no doubt that the case would be fully investigated more particularly, as his Noble and Learned Friend had intimated his intention to send a note to his Noble Friend the Secretary of State. He had no objection whatever to the motion ; on the contrary, he was anxious that all the requisite information should be supplied ; but he suggested, for the consideration of his Noble Friend, whether his ad dress could be presented, calling upon the Crown to order information to be laid prospectively before the next Ses sion of Parliament. Lord BROUGHAM said it was merely a direction— the motion was in the ordinary shape. The LORD CHANCELLOR suggested that the words "next Session of Parliament" might be omitted. Lord CAMPBELL agreed in the remark of the Noble Duke opposite, that the motion for prospec tive information would he an interference with the pri leges of Parliament. While he was on his legs 'fi e begged to call the attention of their Lordships to th e want of law assistance at the Home-office. No man •Has more sensible of the great zeal and ability of Mr. slaule ; but he thought the public service was likely to suffer, if further legal assistance was not given :ii that department. The motion was then agreed to, and their Lordships Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Sept. 27. Lord G. Somerset for Monmouthshire, Lord Eliot for East Cornwall, Sir W. Rae for Buteshire, and Mr. Tuite for Westmeath, took the oaths and their seats. CORN-LAWS. Mr. SHEPPARD presented a petition from manu facturing labourers at Frome, praying for the repeal of the Corn-laws. The Hon. Member said he had been requested to support the prayer of the petition, but being diametrically opposed to it, he was unable to do so. An HON. MEMBER, on the same side, presented a similar petition from Forfar. An HoN. MEMBER presented a petition from the in habitants of the Kent-road, praying for the abolition of tolls on the metropolitan bridges. PRIVATE BILLS. Mr. GREENE moved that all Standing Orders regu lating the practice of this House and of the Private Bill-office, with reference to Estate and Name Bills, he, during the present Session, suspended ; that all such Bills during this Session be, after their second reading, referred to a Select Committee; that such Committee do consist of the folLming Mem bers : 7 --Mr. Greene, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Tatton Egerton, and Mr. Walker. ':bat three be the quorum. That it be an instructi' Ai to such Committee, to inquire whether there be ar: f Standing Orders apply ing to such Bills, and, 4_. so, whether they have been complied with ; and ti at they do report the same spe cially to the How C. That such Committee have power to report on tt e s Bills be pr, ame day on which they sit. That such emitted to proceed de die in diem through all their o'• • Amer stages.—Agreed to. NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. TURN - ELL, a new writ was ordered for the city of Hereford, in the room of Henry Hobhouse, Esq., who, since his election, had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. ELECTION PETITIONS. The SPEAKER reported to the House that the sure ties in the petition complaining of an undue return for Dudley, and in one of the petitions complaining of an undue return for Barnstaple, had been reported to be unobjectionable ; and that the other petition, com plaining of an undue return for Barnstaple,had not been perfected. - Mr. EWART gave notice that he would move next Ses sion for a reduction of the duties on timber and sugar, and begged to state that, in consequence of the motion of his Honourable Friend the Member for Greenock, he would not bring forward the motion of which he had given notice for to-morrow, for a renewal of the Import Duties Committee, but would do so in a different shape at another time. On the Report of the Committee of Supply being brought up, Captain PECHELL said he regretted the absence opportunity n be i t y r e f o f r e xpressir. g Dorchester, his but sen t i h m e e n i n o g t omit ofthe thee Hon.o p the misapprehe ns i ons on the part of militar3 el m it en ; upon the subject, which was b roug h t forward before- the House on by his Hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for Maryle bone. That Hon. Member stated the unfitness of cer tain stores for the use, either of the army or navy, and that a naval officer should b e p l aced over the Board of Ordnance, to which the Member for Tamworth replied, that there was no occasion for a naval officer being so placed over that Board. In that proposition he entirely concurred. He thought it competent for any officer in the army to be attached to the Board of Ordnance, but what he contended for was, that the Board of Ordnance was so connected with the Admiralty that it was absolutely necessary that a naval officer should be placed over the Ordnance Board. It was surprising that his Hon. and Gallant Friend and Sir R. Stopford were able to elicit the thanks of the Hoise, owing to the inefficient state of the Naval Department as to stores and muskets. He should always find it imperative on him, when the Ordnance Estimates were brought forward, to give fr ee expression to his sentiments on subject.this the m- Hon. Me Captain PLIJMRIDGE concurred in bees remark, but would reserve what he had to say fora future occasion. 2) T w he as . t t h e p e n o r b t r o o n u g t h h e t A n p dmin , and. s trat orderedi o n o f t Justiceo bbe read B 1 (No. third time to-morrow. The Order of the Day for going • into a Committee of Supply was read, for the purpose of postponing it till Monday next. The Population Payment* Bill went through a Com mittee, and the Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. On the motion for going into Committee on Ways and Means, LOYALTY OF THE TORIES. Sir C. BROOK VERE said he knew it would be con sidered wrong on his part to allude to a former debate, so far as it respected himself per sonally ; but as the Honourable Member for Man chester had made some very severe remarks on Agricultural Associations, and had named one in parti ticular, the Saxemundham Association, he claimed the indulgence of the House for a few moments while he made a few observations in reference to that, Association. He had that day received a letter from a Noble Lord, the President of that Association, in which he com plained of the remarks of the Hon. Member. The Hon. Member had said that this Association exhibited all the marks of a Conservative Association, that they drank the health of her Majesty with faint cheers, whilst the health of the Queen Dowager was received with nine times nine. The Earl of Stradbroke was in the Chair when the health of her Majesty was pro posed. He introduced the toast as follows :—" He had the honour to propose a toast which would be always received with the greatest affection by her subjects—the health of her Majesty, and may her Majesty long live in the hearts of her subjects, and be respected by all the nations of the earth."— (Cries of " Hear, hear," on the Ministerial benches.) He (Sir C. B.) could say, from his own knowledge, that the toast was received with every mark of respect and affection. There were the usual cheers, with three times three. " God save the Queen" was sung, the company standing. The Honourable Member himself belonged to the Association, but was not present upon the occasion, and that Association was not one formed for political purposes. The Earl of Stradbroke stated in a letter to him (Sir C. B. Vere) that the statement made by the Honourable Member for Manchester was entirely unfounded. He added, that during the ten years the Society had been in existence, he lad not allowed a word of a party nature to escape his lips. He had only to say in conclusion, that the Society since its commencement had, in his belief, conferred great benefits on the agricultural interests, as well as the labouring classes. Mr. M. GIBSON said, that if the House would allow him to make a few remarks in reply to what had fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Member, he should first observe that there was a wide difference between propos ing a toast and drinking it. He could well conceive that the Noble Lord in the Chair had proposed the health of her Majesty in very becoming terms, but it did not therefore follow that the meeting responded to those terms in a manner which might have been ex pected on the occasion. The Hon. and Gailant Member had stated that he had been at the meeting, and that the health of the Queen was drank with the usual honours. But he (Mr. Gibson) could say that a friend of his had also been present, and that, not only was there a prefer ence shown in receiving the health of the Queen Dowager, but that he had heard some hisses. However that might be, it appeared from a statement in the Ipswich Express, l i that the health of the Queen was received in the usual manner, while the mention of the Queen Dowager's name created the loudest applause. The Ipswich Journal confirmed that account. He would also remind the House that at the Chelmsford dinner the other day, the Noble Lerd in the chair actually cautioned the meet ing to drink the Queen's health with the usual acclama tion, to avoid, as he said, the censure of disloyalty.— (" Hear, hear," on the Opposition benches.) In reply to the Hon. and Gallant Member's statement, that no political allusion was ever made at the meetings of the society, he begged to remind him, that he himself stated at the very dinner in question, that he could not help ex pressing the satisfactioa he felt at the late change in the Administration, and at finding that their pro perties and interests were now in safe keeping. Those were not the exact words, but they were the sentiments ; and they conveyed clearly the meaning of what the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman said. He (Mr. Gibson) had not made an extract from the Speech, but he was sure he was correct as to its meaning. Ile was far from imputing to any individual or to the Hon. and Gallant Knight any desire on his part to mark the toast of her Majesty's health by disapprobation, nor did he wish to impute any such feeling to the divines, military officers, and agriculturists, who sat around on the occasion but it was his belief that there was such marked difference between the mode of drinking; her Majesty's health, and that of the Queen Dowager on the occasion referred to, as practically to amount to an insult to the Queee. Mr. EWART said that he had received a letter that morning, in which it was stated that there was such a feeling towards the Queen Dowager, in consequence of her Christian virtues, that the writer, the Hon. Member for Suffolk (as we understood) was afraid of making a speech on the occasion. Were not, he would ask, the Christian virtues of her Ma jesty equal to those of the Queen Dowager ? —(Cries from the Ministerial benches of "'They are, they are.") It' so, then why give superiority of applause to one over the other, or, he should rather say, why ex hibit that political feeling ? Sir C. BROOK VER - E said that the applause was given at the mention of the Queen Dowager's name from long acquaintance with her virtues. As to loyalty, he begged leave to say that that association was a true one, and the county which it represented equally so. He (Sir C. B. Vere) held that loyalty was not to be measured by cheers. Sir C. BURRELL was confident that a grosser insult was never offered to the Queen of this country than that report. He believed that at public meetings persons were at liberty to express their good will toward s an y one w, th out any imputation of disloyalty The ch arge i n th e pr dent case ', was as unjust as it was indiff e r en t t o the Arty against whom it was made.—(Cheers.) I n hi opinion the evi dence as not sufficient to justify t. ,e charge. Sir E. KERRISON—I was present when the charge was made by the Hon. MM ember, and then I kn ew it to be unfounded. J. have the honour t o k now _ Lord Stradbroke - well, and feel quite certain that no man exceeds 'Jilin in loyalty, and that th e c h arge was false. How does the Hon. Member justify that other charge h made, that all agricultural associat i ons were _ turne',intopolitical ones? I deny that charge emphatically. I 'Am President of an Agricultural Associatic n in the county of Suffiilk, and in order to render it wholly free from having any political bearing, I asked for, and obtained the assistance of, a Whig friend to act as Secretary. I went further, and introduced into the rules and regulations one which was to the effect that any Member who thought proper to talk politics in the Association should be excluded the Society. I defy any one to contradict any statement I have made, and I am the man to deny those of the Hon, Member. Mr. GIBSON—The Honourable and Mem ber was not present at the meeting. 1 was in formed by a gentleman who was present, and he said he heard the proceedings with great pain, and that many other gentlemen h?; expressed the same feeling. He himself heard 50;416 few hisses.—(Loud cries of " Spoke.") Colonel COKE denied that A gr i cu lt ura l As sociations any way made political en g i nes . H e was to have r e resided over a meeting only last Friday ; and, as , could not attend, h e h a d written to b eg a Whig f k riend to take the Chair. WAYS AND MEANS. The House then went into a Committee of `Yap and Means. Mr. GOULBURN said, as the House had made all those supplies during the present Session which were necessary for the public service, he rose, in conformity with the usual practice, to state to the House the mode in which he considered it advisable the ways and means should be furnished to meet the supplies the House had already voted; and in doing so he believed it would not be necessary for him to trouble the House with lengthened de tails such as on other occasions had formed so large a por tion of the addresses of the Chancellor of the Exchequer under similar circumstances. So short a time had elapsed since these details had been brought bef ore th e H ouse and the country by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Baring), and so few changes had occurred in the state of the revenue or expenditure since that period that he should only be unnecessarily fatiguing the House if he were to follow the Right Honourable Gentleman through those details, which he then explained to them, and which proceeding on his part Would be' only a repetition, which he was sure the House would be thankful to escape. He should content himself, therefore, by briefly adverting to th e general result which the Right Hon. Gentleman then communicated to the House, and stating to the House what were the means by which they proposed to equa lise the revenue and expenditure, or, in Parliamentry phrase, to furnish the Nays and Means for meeting the supplie s. The supplies which the House had voted during the present Session of Parliament amounted to 1,727,0001., and consisted, first, of that portion (lithe miscel laneous estimates which was not voted in the last Parlia ment, of the Commissariat, and of the Canada estimates, of which a part only was voted in the last Session ; and to those votes, left unsatisfied in the course of last Ses sion, he had to add the supernumerary estimate for the Ordnance, amounting to 67,0001., and a de ficiency in the Ways and Means last Session, to meet the supplies then voted, 24,896/., making a total of 1,727,4321., which had been voted in Committee of Supply, in the course of the present Session, in addi tion to what had been voted in Comniittee of Supply last year. The House was aware there was a charge for payment ,of the interest on Exchequer Bills, tor which it was necessary ways and means should be provided, which was no longer voted by Parliament, but which was directed to be paid by an Act of the Legislature out of the supplies for the year, and must necessarily be taken into consideration as Ways and Means to be provided. The amount of in terest on these Exchequer Bills for the present year was 740,0001., which, added to the sum he had previously stated as voted in supply of 1,700,0001., left a total of 2,467,4321. The House would recollect that in the course of last Session, when the Right Honourable Gentleman op posite took a review of the receipt and expenditure of the country, he assumed the receipt to be a sum of 48,310,000 t, and the expenditure to be provided for was 50,731,0001. leaving a deficiency to nearly the amount of what he stated as necessary to equalise the amount of Ways and Means which had been voted in the present Session. The sums were nearly equal, because, in the course of the preceding Session the Right Hon. Gentleman had voted the whole of the Ways and Means for the public service. The Ways and Means were nearly as equal as he calculated would be the probable deficiencies of the year. During the five months which had elapsed since the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated the deficiency, he did not think any ci rcumstances h a d occurre d during that period alter the views he took of the probable revenue of the country, and certainly he made no addi tions to the vote of Parliament beyond those small ones. On account of the Ordnance Estimates there would be little or no alteration to be made in the estimate he formed of the total revenue :mid expenditure of the year, and we are, therefore,, on the present. occasion, to devise the means to prolicle for 2,400,0001. which THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1841 . , appears to be the deficiency of the revenue of the year. Without entering at length more into details, which had been so recently submitted to the House, he would pro ceed to state the mode by which he meant to supply that deficiency for which they were now called on to pro vide. The House .was undoubtedly aware of the pro posal, which but a few days since he made known through the ordinary channels, for funding a portion of the unfunded debt of the country. The object he had in view was apparent from what he said, namely, that of making a reduction of the unfunded debt to the amount of two millions and a half. He did that because he was sensible that of all measures which would place the finances of the country on an improved footing, that of relieving themselves from some portion of the un funded debt was an indispensable preliminary. He knew he might be told the amount of the unfunded debt had not been such as would justify a limita tion as to the extent that would be required ; but he would still adhere to the principle which he had uniformly maintained in that House, that it was not safe for the country to continue a larger amount of un funded debt than under the circumstances of the country could lightly and easily be borne, and he would beg the House to observe, that the pressure of the un funded debt upon the country did not depend upon the amount of millions, of which it consisted, but that the same amount might at different times be, in that respect, very disproportionate ; and, that therefore, though now at 20 millions, having formerly been at 30 millions, there might be circumstances now which called more loudly for a deduction than when the nominal amount was so much larger. As long as Exchequer Bills are the only safe security, which gave daily interest as long as the premium upon these bills was kept tolerably steady, so long, he admitted, there was reason to believe that the burden of the unfunded debt was not greater than the country was able to bear. But when a period had arrived in which, so far from being the only safe security giving daily interest, they saw other secu rities, esteemed much by the public, coining into compe tition with them ; when they knew that there were certain banks of acknowledged credit which gave a larger daily interest than that given on Exchequer Bills— when they knew that a spirit of embarking, in which might be considered a comparatively safe speculation existed, in which larger profits might be made— and when, above all, they considered that by the change which had been effected in the Usury Laws, the money which before lay in the hands of individuals, or was employed at certain periods only in the purchase of Exchequer Bills. was now employed in the more profit able business of discounts ; it must, he thought, be evident to every one who considered the subject, that the reduced amount of Exchequer Bills at the present moment was in consequence of the altered position of monetary affairs to which he had alluded. And for these reasons, considering that it was difficult, without material loss, to add to the num ber of Exchequer Bills already in the market, his first object was to effect a reduction of the unfunded debt to the amount of 2,500,000/. He was happy to say that as far as the object went he had at present been com pletely successful, that he would be en ibled, by the sub scription which had been made, to afford that degree of relief to the country. He had indeed another object in view namely, to explain to the public the amount which w, lt id be required to be borrowed for the public serv xe . H e did not wish that every man should subscril-,, his capital to the public without knowing the denr. e d which sh ou ld be made upon it, and he hoped to be e`dabled to raise at once the 2,500,000/. in money, which was necessary to equalise the expenditure and revenues of the country. The total amimint which he had raised was 3,540,000/. thus relieving the market of the sum of 2,500,0001: from which he intended to relieve it, and leaving it to Parliament to make up the deficiency. He might be told that he had offered to the public terms which were either unfavourable to the Government, or which were unfair to the public.—(Hear.) He did not, however, expect that this would be dwelt upon by those who had attended at all to the transactions. When the sum taken by the public was considered, it would be seen at once that they had no reason what ever to be dissatisfied. On the other hand, he thought it would clearly appear that the terms were such as the Government were authorised to offer. Into the details of those sums he would not at the present mo ment enter. Unless any Hon. Gentleman opposite should wish to have the whole detail of the calculations, he would merely state, that, comparing the terms of fered with those of antecedent periods, they were not higher in proportion to the rate of interest than those offered in the year 1838 by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer: He should refrain from discussing, there fore, any further details of the basis upon whic'i the calculation had been made, which, however, he stould be perfectly disposed to explain, if any Hon. C;, e ntle man I wished him to d o so. Mr. F. BARING inquired the am :Ant of bonus ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he calculated the bonus at about 18s. 10d. per cent. Tho bonus the case of Lord Mont eagle was 16s. 41 The funds at the time when Lord Monteagle made the bargain, were about 91, when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) made it they were about 89.—(Hear.) The result of the arrangement then was this, having cleared the market of 2,500,0001., he was called upon to show to the House the manner in which he thought it expedient to raise the remaining sum. Part of the remaining sum would be paid by the money obtained ilom those who contributed this fund, and':nerefore what the amount would be it - was impossible for him at the moment to state. —(Hear, he a r.) He could not,. ur...,11 the transaction were concluded, which woif i d r..ot be until the m pa o y n m e) e ' n w t .hich o h f ad i o t e h e e n available. This he would state woul i d ns b ta e lni t e h n e t' at amou s n t to e ? th distinctly in n o e t ( a ) a the supposing Hoir s t t t h e parties who had sub scibed to pay one -h a lf i n E xc h equer bi lls, could i t exceed 1,7Q0,0001. on the whole amount. Mr. BARING--Half the amount. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged pardon, he meant half the amount. Of course under the circumstances of the country he need not say, after all that had lately passed in that House, that it would be impracticable to attempt upon the present occasion to pro vide for the deficiency which existed by any arrangement which would leave taxation upon its present footing, and therefore he should recommend to the House to adopt that temporary provision which he believed every man who had spoken upon the subject in the Honse had thonght necessary, and which, however, it was, in his opinion, and in the opinion of them all, to be deprecated as a permanent mode of meeting the deficiency in the revenue, was one which, under the pre sent circumstances, he thought that no reasonable man could see the least ground for objecting to.—(Hear.) He was sure that the House would see that the attempt under the present circumstances, so soon after the ac cession of the present Government to office, with the ge neral disposition that had been manifested not to embark in any lengthened discussion upon topics of that nature—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches) —he was sure it would be found impossible to bring forward a general measure of taxation. It was impossible to obtain even those accurate details which might enable any one to say to what extent the necessity for additional taxation might be dis•• pensed with. He should certainly feel himself still more unworthy of the situation in which he was placed, if he were presumptuous enough at the moment to lay before the House a system of taxation to meet the existing deficiency in the revenue. He should there fore simply state, that by the resolution he had then upon the table of the House, he proposed that they should give power to the Government of raising, either by the sale of Excheque r Bill s or b y the sale of a certain portion of stock, that sum which might be necessary to make the amount received in money from the subscribers for Exchequer Bills equal to the 2,400,0001., and add what was required for the public service. He had left in the resolution an option of applying either Exchequer Bills or the sale of stock to that purpose. He had done so, because, anxious ashe was to realise his original intention of re lieving the unfunded debt to the amount of two millions and a half, he could scarcely be assured of the effect if he were at once to attempt to raise the sum in the shape of Exchequer Bills. He had recourse to that plan also, because he thought that, under the circumstances hich had been recently under their observation, show the difficulty of disposing of Exchequer Bills with advantage to the Government or the public—and he spoke rather of the interests of the public than of the interests of the Government—because the sudden introduction into the market of a large amount of Ex chequer Bills, which the public felt very severely—he thought that, under the circumstances, the plan he pro posed would prove to be the least inconvenient ; and he believed that it would be most advantageous to the general interests, and loss liable to derange the monetary concerns of individuals, to give the Government the discretion of adopting either the sale of Exchequer Bills, or the sale of stock in part. He did not pretend to introduce a new principle, because he was merely adopting a proposal which had already been developed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. F. Baring). He knew, at least, that the Right Hon. Gen tleman had been in favour of a proposition of the kind ; for with the candour which he had always displayed in office, and which he expected to experience from him in opposition, he had intimated distinctly that it was his opinion that such a course might be adopted. Of course, the sum to be raised would be limited by the necessities of the public service for the year. He should observe that he did not adopt the course he proposed to follow without a deep feeling of regret at finding himself called upon to add to the existing deficiency of the country. He lamented deeply that while adding to the debt of the country, he was not in a situation to hold out any hope to the House ; but, tit the same time, he did not propose to make any special provision for the debt to be created. The reasons which debarred him from doing so, were the same, as he had already stated, prevented him from at once considering the whole question of the deficiency in, the revenue. In his opinion, those , important questions could not be well considered until the whole subject, both as to the means of dimi nishing expenditure and of increasing the revenue, could be fully considered in connection with them. He would only further say, that as, in the present proposition, he had sincerely endeavoured to give effect to that mode of meeting the present difficulties of the case which he had' to deal with, so he hoped he would not be sup posed as anxious to set a precedent of repairing a defi ciency by an addition to the debt. So far from it, that I have not even alluded to any precedent which I might have produced. He did not think, as a general measure, the principle was defensible ; and he looked forward to the time when the whole question would meet with the calm consideration of the House to that period, which was not distant, when it would be his duty to submit to the House the whole case in detail—not to point out how the deficiency of one year might be met, but how the expenditure of the = revenue might be equalised. The Right Hoe ; Gentlerrierr " concluded with moving a resolution in confortitiiY Witli his plan. Mr. F. BARING had hardly thought it would have been necessary for him to 'We troubled the House with ! any remarks upon the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; indeed, it was not what he had stated that called for any observation; it was that part which he . had omitted.—(Cheers.) It was at all times a difficult 1 ' matter to follow a long financi a l s t a t ement w i thout preparation, and it was the more difficult for him to do so then, as he bad been but a short time in town ; but there were one or two points upon which he would offer a few observations. He believed the Right Hon. Gen tleman had made no alteration—had found no mistakes in the estimates made by him (Mr. Baring) in his finan cial statement in April. It was a source of satisfaction to him to find such to be the case after a lapse of six months.—(Hear, hear.) He understood the proposed transaction as it was stated in the newspapers ; he had no doubt upon the matter until he heard the statement l of the Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman . A s h e un d erstood the transaction, the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to fund I two and a half millions, while, by the arrange ment of the terms he proposed at the same time to raise two . and a half millions in money. But when the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he men tioned five millions to inform the public that he should want two-and-a-half millions he (Mr. Baring) must say that he was left in doubt whether he understood the measure of the Right H , n. Gentleman.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) trusted that no s-ord would fall from him to encumber the -public guile! i ; but he did not think that Right Hon. Gentleman co tid say that his measure had succeeded. It appeared to him that the Right _Hon. Gentleman was in this posi ion -.that he did not know whether he had fundat two-t was.-half millions or not; that he would neither know :h.! amount funded or the amount of money he was likely to receive —neither the one nor the other. If, therefore, his main object was to fund two-and-a-half millions of Exchequer Bills, the Right Hon. Gentleman had not scured that object ; if, on the other hand, his object was to obtain two and a half millions in money, to obviate the necessity of going out of the market, in that case the Right Hon. Gentlernan had not got the money.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman stated, that no one would quarrel with the amount or bonus he had adopted. So far from it, if he (Mr. Baring) might have snggested anything to him previous to his making an observation of that kind, he should have said, " Don't make the operation without being perfectly sure of succeeding." He (Mr. Baring) believed that the advantage of any small saving (which he did not underrate), would not be equal, in the preSent state of the finances, to offering sufficient terms to se cure the operation proposed. But with regard tg.the amount of the offer of the Right Honourable. Gentle man, he (Mr. Baring) must say, that it appeared to him a satisfactory offer. He said that with satisfaction, because it appeared that after all that the Right Hon. Gentleman had said—that after ten years of Whir Administration, he proposed terms which - he believ.,,j were less by one-third than b e hi mse lf funde-1 - exche quer Bills in 1830. These were facts 'e (Dlr. Baring) was glad to learn. After all the , - ' 1 . heard of the ruin of our finances—of the en , ,, _ _ us J . mo difficulties a( in which he (Mr. Baring) had l-' c the - finances of. the country, the Moment the IV 6.nt — l l ion. Gentleman wanted money he offered to h off ad er '''' *i iie Public a sum one-third less than he himself °..ered after some 40 or 50 years uninterrupted adini r..stration of the finances. These facts, .he repeated, were consolatory amidst the abuse and obloquy that were cast upon them, that when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) came to deal in the money market, he did not find they had left it 50 per cent. worse, but 25 per cent. better.---(Cries of " Hear, hear.") With regard to the operation of the Right Hon. Gentle man, there was one point to which he wished to allude. He thought he (Mr. Goulburn) should use his best en deavours to avoid a loan. The House might recollect what was the case in the good old times when a loan was to be executed. Except in extreme cases, he should re gard it as extremely wrong to have recourse to a loan.— (Hear, hear.) He conceived the plan of opening to com bination the raising of 2,500,0001., was liable to very strong objections. He thought it was not right to have recourse to a combination of the monied aristocracy. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to make up, by means of Exchequer Bills or sale of Stock, what he was unable to do by means of his operation. He agreed with him in the necessity of keeping down the amount of Exche quer Bills. But the Right Hon. Gentleman would find that the amount of those Bills had been reduced by him self and Lord Monteagle in 1835 ; therefore the Right Hou. Gentleman would find a less amount of those Bills in the market than when he came into office. Though the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite had reduced them by three millions, yet they were not the only persons who r e d uce d diem. Ht should be rather for rasing the required amount by sale of Stock than by Exchequer Bills. But he was surprised the Right Hon. Gentleman did not make any allusion to the prospects of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Not once did he vouchsafe a small glimpse as to how he should proceed with the finances of the country hereafter.— (Cheers.) When on a former occasion he was taunted with saying he would let this alone ho twice rose and in dignantly repelled the accusation. And yet he now considered, after his success, that the wisest plan was to leave things alone, and wait the next Session.—(Cheers.) If he (Mr. Baring) thought delay was absolutely neces sary he should not object to a delay of some weelcs— (Hear, hear)—but in his conscience he could not admit the plea of delay in the present position of affairs ; and after the late Government had been attacked and de feated upon their financial measures —(Hear, hear) — he could not understand such a proceeding.—(Cheers.) He had, with his Noble Friend the Member for London, opposed any such delay under such circumstances, and considered it unadrisable to pursue the course pursued by the other side. Ile hoped the Right lion. Gentle man had some expectation that it would not be necesary to levy new taxes, but it' he had no such expectation then he thought it dangerous to delay, and he considered it unfair that those taunts of profligate expenditure a.hould be directed' against the Whig Government. _ _ Sir R. PEEL intimated that he made no such accu sation. Mr. BARING—But they were the words of the Noble Lord, before whoso motion the Whig Government was beaten.—(Cheers.) He knew the Right Hon. Baronet was always ready to disavow the sentiments of one-halt of his friends.—(Cheers.) These accusations were made and charges were founded on them, and then the Right Hon. Gentleman says he did not make them.—(Cheers.) But when a great party were banded together it was not natural to suppose that without some bond of union they would be employed by those holding situations in the Government of the Right Honourable Baronet.— (Cheers.) He delivered his protest against. the course of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He hoped he would be successful in his measures, and he was himself as anxious about their success as when he was in office himself. He was convinced the good faith of the country was un shaken, and though the Right Hon. Gentleman might not get the amount he desired, he would not draw from thence any evil omen of the finances of the country.— (Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Right Hon. Gentleman had concluded his speech with a sentiment which he was in the habit of using himself when in opposition, viz., that the good faith of the country was secure, and that. there was no reason to despair of the finances ol . the country. He had stated some objections to the measure he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proposed. He protested against the Ex chequer Bills, but he really did not understand the pre cise meaning of his objection. He said he thought it necessary to redeem the unfunded debt, and not to have recourse to a loan—but his proposition met both those ends.—(Hear, hear.) He had objected to the principle of his measure. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew it greatly depended on the temper of the public mind; but, taking the whole of his measure together, he had in his hands the power, from subscription:, made, to redeem the unfunded debt and to raise the amount for the service of the year.—(Cheers.) So far the measure had succeeded. But he was told there was danger in the plan he adopted. He allowed there was, but there were reasons for doing so. Lord Monteagle attempted to fund Ex chequer Bills through the medium of public competition. Three large capitalists made proposals different from each other, one of which was the Bank of England, but he did not succeed with either. He (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) did not think the principle of competition was liable to the objections of the Right Hon. Gentlemen op posite. He conceived tbatall parties ought to have an equal chance of partaking of any benefit that might arise from his proposition. It would certainly be impossible to take 1,001;1. from one man and 1,0001. from another ; but then the small capitalist could come in and subscribe upon the same terms as the person having a million, and on the present occasion many persons had done so. He did not think it right to retrace the steps of Lord Mont eagle, who was not successful in his attempt, and it would appear unjust to those who came forward in the first instance, to make offers such as Government could not accept. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman think that if he had offered a bonus of 18s. 9d. per cent. he could obtained what he had desired ? Certainly not. Why, when Mr. S. Rice had proposed the loan for the West Indian compensation, he had offered a bonus of V. 18i. per cent., but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) by a com bination of advantages had been enabled to, make a better bargain for the public. The Right Hon. Gen tleman thought that he (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) had damaged the credit of the country by offering terms which it was doubtful whether the public would accept now. He had taken the best means in his power to ascertain the terms which the public had a right to expect, and he had made his arrangements accordingly. He thought it his duty to make this offer to the public, little regarding whether the whole of th e subscription was filled up so that he could obtain suffi cient to accomplish his object. The Right Hun. Gen tleman had stated that he had offered ten per cent. less than he had done ten years ago when he had occupied the same office. Now, these matters were subject to such perpetual variation that it could not be matter of praise or blame that these arrangements . had been concluded on more advantageous terms at one period than at an other; but since that period the Government had ob tained the power of regulating the absorption of Exche quer Bills, so that they were enabled to obtain more ad vantageous terms than could have formerly been ob tained and be felt that it was better to stand there and defend hitriself against the charge of having made too advantageous a bargain for the public, than to have to defend himself against the charge of having uselessly squandered the public money. The Right Hon. Gentle man had said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had misunderstood him on one point as regarded the im position of new taxes. What he had said was, that before proposing new taxes he must examine the expenditure as well as the revenue, and that, if he should then, as he expected he shOuld, find it impossible to go on without proposing new taxes, he could state that the welfare of the country required the imposition of new taxes, and appeal to the good sense of the public on the subject. If he were now to bring forward a crude and undigested scheme of taxation, would he not be - told by Hon. Gentlemen opposite to look into the expenditure, and he would not bring for- . ward his plan of finance until he had carefully consi dered the subject, so as to be enabled' to impose the new bureens, if such should, as he thought they would, be come necessary, in such a manner as to produce the least amount of inconvenience. —(Hear. hear.) Tha Right Hon. Gentleman had forgotten what he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) had said when the question of the Sugar Duties was und er di scus si o n. He had then said that if time were given, the importation of' sugar would increase, and the revenue would increase in conse quence ; and such had been the case. He stood in a different situation from the late Government; they had had 10 years to devote to the consideration of the subject. He had had no opportunity of fully considering the questions of finance to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded, and he would not be driven to act without due preparation.—(Hear, hear, on the Ministerial benches.) He did not know that it would be necessary for him to offer any further observations in reply to the Right Hon. Gentleman. It appeared to him to be evi dent that the Right Ylon. Gentleman approved of the principle of his plan, although he might object to certain details ; and he, therefore, thanked the Right Hon. Gen tleman for the support he had given him.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WILLIAMS said that he should be far from re commending the Right Hon. Gentleman the (Chancellor of the Exchequer) under any circumstances, to have re course to fresh taxation. He believed that the deficiency in the revenue might be easily made good, not by the imposition of new taxes, but by having recourse to a system of economy which might be enforced without any detriment to the public service. The means by whieh the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to get out of his financial difficulties might appear to him the easiest which he could adopt ; but it was precisely the mode in which every spendthrift endeavored to get rid of the eifficulties into which his prodigality had led him. For his part he had heard the Right Honourable Gentleman's proposition with great pain and regret. No re asona bl e . man could have expected to find that they should be called on to add so largely to the debt of the country after twenty-five years of peace. During the seven years which had elapsed since 1834, an addition had been made to the funded debt of this country of a sum of '33,900,0004 of which the annual interest was 1,167,0001 The proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman would make the debt incurred since 1834, amount in all to the sum of 36,500,000 ; which wds at the rate of more than 5,000,000/. during each of the last seven years. He knew he would be told that twenty millions of that sum had been incutred for the purpose of purchasing the emancipation of the West India slaves, and that that sum had been devoted to a just and ri,ghteous purpose. That he believed was the opinion of the country; but he should say tha tif the present generation so highly , estimated that act, they might have borne the cost of it, andnot throw the burden upon pot terity. What could be • more unjust or more dishonest, than that 'the present gene ration should contract a debt, the payment of which would devolve upon future generations. An end must come to the system of adding to the national expendi ture during time of peace. They had, in the course of seven years, added 36,000,0001. to a debt already ex ceeding 800,000,0001. Was there to be no end to this accumulution of debt? • Could any man suppose that this increasing weight could be borne for any great length of time, or that generation after generation would continue to pay the interest of such a sum? He believed that no rational being could believe that the system could be pro longed. What was to be the end of it? When the end came, and come it would inevitably, it would be attended with consequences which no human being could calcu late. But, instead of there being any necessity for im posing additional taxes at the present moment, he hoped he should be able to show, and not from any speculative doctrines of his own, that by the adoption of a system of rigid economy, not only the whole of the present deficiency might be made up, but a considerable saving in the national income might be effected besides. The amount in the estimates of the present year of those four branches of the public service, the Army, the Navy, the Ordnance, and the Mis cellaneous, amounted to 18,949,0001. As he wished, however, to contrast the expenses of the service of the present year with the expenses of former years he would deduct the extra charges of the present year. He would deduct 400,000'(. for China and 155,000/. for Canada, and the expenditure in the navy over the last two years, which amounted to 191,000/., making alto gether 746,000/. ; and that sum deducted from the amount he had previously named would leave for the four branches of the service for the present year the sum of 18,200,000/. Now, he did not think he could do better than refer to • the last year when Hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office before. He asked, then, what difference there was in the circumstances of the country, as compared with the year 1830, which could make a difference in the expenses of the public service during the two periods necessary. The expenses of the four branches of the service he had alluded to amounted in 1830 to 15,860,0001., being less than the sum required far the present year, after making the deductions he had mentioned, of 3,330,0001. That would just complete the sum which the Right Hon. Gentleman wanted to add to the funded debt this year. He could refer the Right Hon. Gentleman to a still better example. During the years 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837 the expenses of the four branches under the late Government amounted in the average to no more than 14,148,000/.. making a less sum than that 'proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. of 4,055,0001. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would only adopt the estimates of those four years he would have the deficiency of the present year, and of the four last years, almost entirely made up for him in one year. He should like to learn what there was in the peculiar cir cumstances of the country now which rendered so large an increase in the expenditure of the four services ne cessary? He could point out no material difference in the circumstances of the country, compared with former periods, which imposed such a necessity either as re garded the state of public feeling at home or the state of our foreign relations. In 1830 a great coevulsion had taken place in France, the consequences of which no man could foresee. In this country a great portion of the population were in a most distracted ai.d dissatisfied state. In some districts both life and property were in secure. But what was the state of the country at the present moment ? He believed that greater distress ex isted in the country, and that the people were suffering greater privations, than had been ever known in this country at any period of its history ; but still everything was tranquil, and no political disaffection was displayed. With regard to our foreign relations the Eastern 'ques tion is admitted upon all hands to be now settled. They were told in her Majesty's Speech at the commencement of the Session " that the causes which had for a time separated France from the other great Powers of Europe had ceased." Canada was now in a tranquil state ; and he would venture to assert, from his own observation of public feeling in that country, that if the same course was pursued hereafter in Canada, which had been fol lowed by Lora Sydenham, they would have that country firmly and honestly attached to this. Again, in the United States. of America, he had no doubt but the questions that estranged that country from its good feel ing towards us, if affairs were properly managed, might be settled amicably ; for he had reason to believe that the great body of the people of the United States—and they governed the . country absolutely—were decidedly in favour of a continuance of amicable relations with this country. He also begged leave to point out another branch of the public service in which a great reduction might be effected—namely, in the collection of the revenue. He found that the amount of taxes collected last year amounted to 51,850,000/., and that the cost of the col lection, as appeared from a paper laid before Parliament, amounted to 4,280,0001., being more than 8 per cent► upon the entire revenue. Now such an expense would appear to him monstrous under any circumstances, but when he compared that charge with the amount of for mer years, it appeared to him a matter in which a very great reduction might be made. He found from a return made by the Treasury to the Finance Committee, that in the year 1806 the amount of taxes levied amounted to upwards of 58,000,0001., while the amount of the collec tion amounted to no more than 2,790,000/., being no more than 44 per cent. upon the whole sum. He should. like to know what was the cause of the vast difference between the cost of collection then and its cost at the pre sent day. There was then 1,300,0001. less expended in collection than now, although the amount of collec tion was greater by the sum of 6,000,0001. Add then 1,300.000/. to 4,200,0001. excess in the public service, and they would have a sum of 5,500,0001., which might be saved in the present year. That was. not a mere speculative opinion. He gave it to them from data which were, he believed, quite unques tionable. Besides they should remember that, in 1806, when the collection amounted to no more than 2,790,000/. the value of money, as compared with the present day, was but 14s. or. 15s. in the pound. This sum of 4,200,0001., the present cost of collection, never found• its way into the Treasury ; but every department put a finger in the public purse and took out as much as;was, required for its own expenses. That was a most objec tionable system ; and so long as it was continued they could never effect any solid and efficient reduction. • He said that such a system should be amended ; and he hoped the present Government would take the subject into its most serious consideration, and that they would adopt the plan which he believed was in operation some fifty or ,sixty years ago in this country (althut!gh he was not sure of the fact), namely, that of enfe_ rcing the payment of all revenue into the Treasury, amid let ting the Treasury afterwards make a repayment of the necessary sums to the officers of the different htv ments. • The' House of Commons ought to . 4,200,00 CL laid before them to be a nnually hat was a source'of have, then, was also aware (Hear, hear.)" He was aware that i t idhe great patronage to a Government, investigated. speak of the present Governmentt a how they were pressed for such p a atro l o n n e ge. question should, be laid before but H s d t i i d ll not he thought that the suin in the House among the estimates wishing to cast any sort of ht avast reduction might be obloquy gues of t the y t e h a e r, a Governmentand he would venture to say, a t. Be understood that, before effected in that lesbsAdministration, a most rigid during Administration that control control collection, but that I have a very remarkable proof of a ye s a p r ee l c B h 37 m . ad li e e by sa tl i i d e ievausfext Mr. Pitt. th h e . Treasury over the expense of was entirely withdrawn. l al iine late Duke of B s to be the Lord of its own will, an 1 E ve ry office seemsseems the effect of tubeakth:iitthaidnr,alw. instead of their being, as the er ' t ' e every officer n t o have an unlimited power over 1, purse of the .natlo spirit of the Constitution directs, under the constant cheek of the Treasury." He begged to read upon the seine sub ject ail extract from a digest of a Report o f th e Commis sion of Inquiry into the Excise Establishments. They sa y " that the charge of the collection for the revenue and the payment of such revenue in its progress to the Treasury, amounted to 4,500,000/4 which was obtained by stopping that amount out of the gross revenue in its progress to the Exchequer, or that that amount of the produce of the taxation was not paid into the Exche-. quer, contrary to the great principle of the Constitution, which requires that the Exchequer should possess the means of securing the legal appropriation of the money levied upon the public." Now, he quite agreed with that Report, and he did say that the present system was one. _ in the slightest degree objectionable, and that it did en tail a vast expense, which he had. no doubt was totally unnecessary. He did trust that the present Govern- MORNlk& l gtifsT , • o ; ment, looking at the difficulties in which tile cu-on„, was . placed—seeing that the last attempt to increase ttll-be avon had been a complete failure —seeing that imposition of fresh taxes which was expected to l r l dace a sum of not less than 2,500,0001, had net ell oc y, failed in realising that sum, but had actually been i th cupied with a falling off in taxation es awl:t ar ed ! ill ' I the preceding years. He was aware that the Pre s , 4 4 Chancellor of the Exchequer might say that lie, ;j ot found the Treasury in an embarrassed .tion anu , position, bau as he was not the author of that embarrassmant, b" : a right to be placed in a ,clear position. The Hon. Gentleman would have a right to use that argin';`, o , if he and his party had not coincided with the late t-'OO, verrinient in all their most expensive undertaking's. . 1\ he - -(Mr.Williams) had Y. 9 hesitation in saying that; 10 1, be of the acts of the late,Government, in dealing wit" fit i t public money, had. been most extravagant and wast'-' but in every one of those acts, with the .o e ru ,,i tion of a single over.the ~ p arty opposite su Pr . lt the late Government, and they had therefor e no rAe to complain of the present calamitous condition et public funds. He would also remind Hon. Gentlono. opposite, that when the late .Administration haA , PC , t posed to get rid of the public difficulties Elf igric change in our commercial legislation—when. the 7 oat posed to make, a large addition to the revenue , the same time, they were.about to relieve the the people—Hon.. Gentlemen opposite interfe spa prevented those measures of the late Goverem e g being carried into effect. They were, theref4faitr e at present by an imperative duty, to e ndea.ettr up the present deficiency by retrenchment itp4 • and not to add to the national difficulties by. tin tion of fresh taxes. lie considered that it was a) r ) i,c ,f grace to the present generation, that, after 25 Ye.''.,il peace, they should be adding to the. perroanent.,4e,rl , the country, while they, , impose() how, the penalty of their -prodigality.(llear, B e ar ' He should therefore, move the following , tittl e P uni, 'll° the resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman nt to after twenty-five years of peace it wa s inexptre:,. is add to the funded debt the amount of the de ti e' enb d t he the revenue to meet the expenses of the present atijot four preceding years, and that such deficient} rild and ought to be made good by the observance et 4 economy and retrenchment in the public setvice. blear Mr. GREENE objected to the motion of the lio. to d ber for Coventry upon a point of f orm . We und A er : t i f ict the Hon. Gentleman, wh o s p o k e i n a very intaiee tone, to ground his objection upon the fact of, no having been given of the motion. • Mr. WILLIAMS admitted .the validity of the °bice' tion, and would withdraw is motion. fors C 47 Dr. BOWRING was glad the Hon. Memb er b' ventry had called the attention of the House to th e . f ject 'of the great expense incurred in the collection eeds revenue. The Hon. Gentleman then prockded t 0 Th a t a Parliamentary Return, from which it appear"' , the sum of more than 6,000,0001. were annually spen t l: 1 0 public offices without the sanction of Parliament' t t hel that sum was placed under the control of Parliainen"nded, could have no security for its being properly eqe „iso He hoped the Government would, take care W een. te ful to the utmost, and not indulge in any useless or TV* 6 expenditure. ber Colonel SIBTHORP wished the Hon. allei ll „ijane Bolton had, during the last seven years, been as i a ,,, - "be Pt to prevent wasteful expenditure as he appearen '''steftn present. There was one article in particular of to expenditure to which he had repeatedly drawn th e , the tion of the House, and he could not but regret ti l3 , hi§ Hon. Member for • Bolton had not inculcated:l:mot friends . the necessity of redueing it ; but, perbar c :de would have been coming too near home. Ever 10.0 present Ministers had been in office it seemed. t ° l i v ing if there had been an attempt atssoinethino• like ht l p re' them, but they were too strong to be underatPb'eta, hensions. He had the most implicit confidence o ' 4: the and, therefore, he should support the proposition°s :jot Chancellor of the Exchequer against any W u that might be proposed. king I Mr. HAWES said that the Ministers, by As the supply, were asking the highest mark of contidenef,ined House could repose in them. Now he was not inytbel to repose any confidence in them, and he believe, r be the expectations which they had raised would Br e t the realised. The Right Hon. Baronet at the heti°, I ' o o l ' Government had stated as a ground for. asking thi s „, e ree of confidence that he would bring forward nom e''," t e that he did not believe to be for the public ben e l e r were not sanctioned by his own conseientous fee tiro He (Mr. Hawes) had no hopes of any great me' - l e er either of commercial or of financial reform, frenli t he Majesty's present Ministers. Let the House look a , e s' various and conflicting opinions which had bee tl „,eot pressed by the different Members of the Goveril'al on the subject of the Corn-laws—a subject of the importance—involving the future peace an d loud fare of the country, and one which hat; f l e ar , / attracted almost undivided public attention.--(i-o,,ia The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dore: e e s r t dte ci hei o r addressing his constituents, had said that he reg .° oole fixed duty on corn as 'a meaiure to which commercial world was looking as a relief front „to' distresses as an absolute impossibility ; whil e the :ber ter- General of the Ordnance no inconsiderable ni of the Government, was all in its favour, and ir a small fixed duty as a panacea.. The Noble Lor,t,l he head of the Woods and Forests said he tbyucil' ob ile sliding scale might be altered with advan ta g e 1 ce ho the Noble Duke who held the Privy Seal had , Lrl ohs' , '' had taken-office, declared to th e farmers of Buck' b a t he shire, that he would abide by the law as it was -- , t t - A tel would maintain the slidin g scale in its present - lie that he would sanction no backsliding, and tha,, t : ta to ! " not changed his opinions ; and, in 1839 ; he 10";•,bis in his place in the House of Lords, .that : l out' opinion the present law was the best )hat e o . .er , " be devised.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Thus t her ,''or two more members of the Government differing P j th nion on this important point. The .Noble Member for North Lancashire said that the ( i ° was justifiable, not simply because it raised rents , v is the Noble Lord admitted it did, hut o n high g r°li s tst r j national policy. The Noble Lord had not, however,oool is hat those grounds were, and he (Mr. Haw es) be most glad to hear them debated. But what sa r ,,V Noble Secretary for Ireland—did he treat the C ° ., 10 - ; as involving great questions of national policy? . $ ll quest ° t f the said that undoubtedly it was a landlord's that he should like to know why the landlords .°,.e.te§d country had not as great a right to have their protected as any one else. So much for the P e o .hter; unanimity of the united Cabinet.—(Cheers and atr,tl The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ta''' f eea ( I, was tied to no opinion on the suhject. He teo c one to himself for being as free as th ° , be ' s l ', and therefore he bop( d, perhaps, that he nsig h A, to reconcile the disco) dint elements of whic h ' ha t a' t , net was composed.- (He er, hear.) Now, for w ite cl the Right Hon. Barn, et claim time ? No one :1, place a Bill upon the table of the House on his subject. The Government which had preced„e",, t ico,,, ii e frequently done that which the Right - Hon• or e- t cstyt was asked to do. When Lord Grey's Governroe:°, into office, which was during an autumn sit i t ' n ,c ' ell i „f Noble Lord, when pressed for information, ha° „ s ee - 1 ,1 0 assurance that he intended to introduce a e n e ', Refor,n which should be full and satisfactorY , f o r had also stated that he had not held the seals; 0 61 3 0 hours before he had been pressed to give the: le r g 14 .0 the measure he intended to propose. An o „,t °c nt ien,lf, Minister, for whose authority the Right Hon. ue,ery,) e' ho had a great respect, had:also pursued a co urse ferent from that of the Right Hon. Gentlems'" putd Ministry of Mr. Fox, in 1783, had been turne" igth the India Bill. It had been introduced on tr„, e re ce ' November, had been rejected on the 16th o f 1 '; 0°, 1 4, and on the 12th of December Mr. Pict had taUe 11-.11 Parliament re-assembled on the 12th of Januar/25 1301, and on the 14th of January Mr. Pitt had Ini t i a l . O e „v on the table. The course taken by the Right : 'oll .e i ,* - 0 tleman on the present occasion was one etn' t ' e culated to endanger the peace of the country, aligrottili the Right Hon. Gentleman asked for delay, °I th e n e rolgt that he would bring forward no measure of tie,„'„fittr i ,": , of which he was not fully satisfied, he (t . '",bset t io must say, however painful it was to make let, in h . Lion, that he (Sir R. Peel) was the last in t ; House who ought to ask for delay on such gr ° ,;i it n ing ' 1 ,41 cause if there was an instance of a statesman c i , - ; o 13 11 „ ° ; - 4 ,16 ward to propose:measures, to the principles of "'l i t he previously offered the most violent opposition) 001; Hon. Baronet was that statesman.—(Che er %ireib t e t) had been engendered of commercial and fiita tjC which had been blighted by the Right `';. t he opposite. The Right Hon. the Chancellor 0 ' della' e el chequer had not thought fit to refer to former , so t In those debates the Right Hon. Gentleman hui!,o.ll; that he could easily refute certain statements wlli c ot , (Mr. Hawes) had made. 'The Right Hon., 0 1 ' however, had not thought fit to do so, and liaoty; Hawes) should Le glad to meet the Right Hoo..., lo iit r , man on that ground. The Budget of the late had been misrepresented. The late Chancellqctiuc, Exchequer, in bringing it forward, had al'ores given the House the option of two alte rn :f ft< either to increase the revenue by the adoption sures of commercial reform, or to fall back 14 )0 % P'g crease of taxation. The Right Hon. Gentl ewil atag e t never stated that he expected t o rea li se a ll the ad vA d .te ig of his proposals within o ne y ear, an d h a had sta te ni I 'o if he did reap all the adr an t ages h e expected f° :) o r 0 1 ' scheme he should hi mse lf propose f res h taxat n i 0- e l e t tle' - oe issue of Exchequer Bills. The Right lien opposite had suceeded in defeating that scherne, he fell back upon the clumsiest of all ,contrivance 1117, of raising money by loans ; for, disguise i i t ;e i l t . would, it was a loan, and the first act of the-' 7, P i ' Gentleman's Administration was to increas e 0 05 „" t o: debt—(Hear, hear)—and it surely was not u n r:taa 't", ; e 6 when such a proposal was made, to ask how I" „roP ti l l o posed to pay the interest of the debt thus at r irg . to be incurred. If he were simply s t , t , int e r' own opinion the Right Hon. Gentlemen oPP°sfitteail by say that from their station they were betterbut l i e f si d he was to judge of the propriety of dela) , w en ;Ytti c authorities to wl.ich the Right Hon. Gen t c ,,, e fote"_ 4 jei deference, Mr. Deacon Hume had stated ; the du ct ', Import. Committee that he considere u tt as b t o on food tended to undermine the nianufaet ` tV;IS O country, and that their continuance would Ij' der a the manufacturing prosperity of the countsQ;erc.,l7loo: gave it as his opinion, that those dude source,SAoo, Mining the p ublic revenue. by drying the _ opia: which it was derived. In 1835, before ,l' Weavers' Committee, Mr. Gardiner Ill os r t te' if we lost a market one year we . • -tvp! ., 0 0, f together ; and, -therefore, it was n i et 05e ,0 1 .# 4 ; trifle with trade even for a , year. t-l c ; S it e he called upon Right .Hon. Gentlemen 0 1 3 1 ) no t r • what they meant to do.--(Cheers.) He d iel specific details, but at least he had a rigidLan -It ' Of, what principle they intended to treat the, reform) $1,1( what measures of 'commercial or financial _ t 04, 0 11 t country was to expect, or if it were to exPec,toptt°,ive; 3,4J - tight Hon. Gentleman eon l i g lak i ply s.nar.. had increased. He believed the e ncl ,P 4 o r Gentleman was mistaken, and - that a t -the 'in f year it would be 'baud that the cousin:oo' res tit cliff Wh like !pre Abe test °tit It ten Co 31( ' J;i of par tric da3 the 130' pre Ce 3 anc 3ne iha cin ata arr. Gel WAS jest sun Vas effi( (1 - li poi; Con bili vhi qui the the Ile 1 pen tha' the 211 Ni p 1 li. tc ag 1c I IA