The Sun. — London, England, 1828-04-18 00:00:00

more it Iva; discussed, the better for the nation at ; large.—(Hear.) Th, petition was ordered to lie on the table. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE in rising to move that the petition be printed, wished to offer a few obser vations; in reply to what had been said by the Honourable Baronet Who had read a lecture upon the antiquated notions held by the country gentlemen in that house, and who had given advice which every Hon. Member had availed himself of by acquainting himself with this subject before it was discussed. He, for one, entertained what the Honourable Baronet was pleased to call antiquated notions; but he was glad to hear that the Hon. Baronet intended to take up the question, upon which he would, no doubt, bring to bear his ac knowledged talents and information. His notions came from parochial observations of the situation of tie country ; and his complaint was, and the com plaint of the petitioners was, against the monopoly enjoyed by the former wool-growers.—The petition was ordered to be printed. • ROMAN CATHOLICS. Mr. H. MAXWELL presented petitions from three parishes in the county of Cavan, praying that i no further concessions might be granted to the Ro man Catholics. The Hon. Member read the petition ~ vhich stated that the emancipation the Catholics ) most required was emancipation from their bigotted and factions priesthood, who made them their tools, and from the seditious Catholic Association, which indulged in the most decided hostility to the Protectant Church, and threatened with one hand - ;,'lnlst it soothed with the other. The petition con-, ciuded by expressing a hope that the Government would sup press the Catholic Association, and adopt a rra hue of policy, which would convince the Catholics ;la they had nothing more to expect in the way of ponces:4cm than they had already obtained. He approved of the pia, er of the pitition, but before lie brought it up, he begged to put a question to the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Depart snent on a very important subject. During the re cess reports had been industriously circulated that, negotiations had actually taken and were now pending, between the English Govern lent and the Court of Rome, for the purpose of ob lining a eon cordat.—(Hear, and a laugh.) Thee reports had created great alarm among all classes o his Majesty's Protestant subjects. He was web aware of the dif ficulty under which he must place I. Majesty's Go vernment in calling- for a direct ansr-er to this ques tion, seeing that if any of its Members had really been engaged in such negotiations, they would thereby have become liable to the penalties of a prentunire.—(A laugh.) it was his duty, however, to propound the question he had alluded to. .He v:ishe'd to know whether these reports were or were no', totally destitute of foundation—whether such communications had taken place, directly or indi redly, by the immediate acts of this Government, or through. its agency—and also whether any other ne gociataons to the smile effect had been pit on foot by other powers, but to which England now was, or hereafter was likely to become a party?—(Hear, hear.) . Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he was much obliged to his Hon. Friend for suggesting the only safe answer which could be given to a question in voicing the penalties of a premunire (a laugh); and nithough he did not exactly feel that his Hon. Friend was entitled to put such a question to him inn mere surmise, yet the sincere respect which he (Mr, Peel) entertained for him, induced him to de-. (lire that he had never even heard of the reports to which his. Hon. Friend had alluded, until the ether day, and then only in the most cursory manner ; and he would only beg to add, that there was not the :lightest foundation whatever for them. Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that on the 13th of May next he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the statute creating the liability to pre munire on account of such communications with the, Court of Rome. The petitions were then brought up, read, and o rc,:erea to be printed. A Message from the Lords announced that their L or d s hir, had passed two Bills--one relative to Offence.4 :igainst the Person; the other respecting the Law .0( Evidenee; and to both of which they (le:iretl the _eoneurrence of the House. The Lords' Messengers having withdrawn, Mr. Secretary PEEL moved that the two Bilk ire q.o%c read a first time, and a second time on Mon day nest. On the occasion of the second reading of she former especially,• he wtkild tale occasion, as being a more convenient opportunity, to explain to the house the important nature of its enactments, and othef matters relative to the consolidation of the laws respecting offences against the person. The two bills were than severally read a first time, and the second reading was fixed for Monday r.ext accordingly, Mr. BURRELL gave notice, that on Menday the 2Stli of May, he Ivould move certain resolutions re lating to the Wool Trade. • ;Hr. LEONARD presented a •Fatition from the Tarisb of Croome, county of Monaghan, in favour of Catholic Emancipation. Mr.KELTH DOUGLAS presented a petition from ,the Ministers and Elders of Arran, against the Test And Corporation Acts. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES RILL. it F. BURDETT presented a petitioß from Storritpoe, county of Chester, against the Bill now• before the Lipase for the regulation of Friendly So- cleties. After a few woos from Sir JOHN NEWPORT, Mr. COURTENAY, Mr. PITMAN, and Mr. BERNAL, the petition was referred to the Committee on the Bill. Sir R. WILSON presented a similar petition tcom the Members of the Atlas Friendly Society, Bermondsey, which wos also referred to the Com mittee on the Bill. Mr, LUMLEY 11130 presente4 a petition front the far ;niers and wool-growers of the Forest a Sherwood, pray or, for an increased dutv on imported foreign wool. Jr. MIME presented six several petitions from r4rious , in the .counties of Che st er and Monm outh against the ..s. s oc ieties' Bill ; and Mr. Francis Baring similar Friend,, t th e towns of Portsmouth and Portsea. petitions fro.. -.wired for certain returns, in continuation Mr. 111- 111 E to the following effect :—/tn the several articles charged of a return made in account of the ~.tities , 41te other four years ending with the duties of racise .I,lu. 5, 1827, s t a ting the rate o notfocifu:B72le: zz ie e t s in , e s a o eh le y v e ie4 ar on each article, the total amount such in each year, and the respective Increase or detNMe oh- Great Britain from - Ire servable therein, distinguis nig Ire land. —Ordered. SINKING FUND. Mr. MABERLY rose to move for soe Whichu and said, that the papers he moved for, and he hoped the House would grant, were intend ed to show the amounts whit, (on ac c ount of the Sinking Fund and the Debt gene rally) the nation really borrowed at, and those at which they were really paid. What they came to he would not say ; but he thought that thq s difference would be found . to he as ten to tw en ty. Th e House should also bear in m ind that there wag zi charge for collecting and ma na g ing, which, if taken at eight percent., would ensue to 400,000 L per annum. Ile would not, however, longer detain the H ouse , as the accounts would show what be desired much snore dearly than any statement he could make. Papers uefere t h e House s howed t h at , i n 1815, notwithstand ing the S i nking Fund, the capital of the Debt was 162,000, 0001. ; and by the la s t returns i t appeare d th a t the Debt now was 833,000,0001,. leaving an excess at present of 39,000,000/. of Debt, and besides an excess of annual charge to the amount of 40,000/. , notwithstand ing the reduction of the gross annual charge by the sum of 1,900,000/. from the co nversion of the Four and Five per Gas. He would therefore now move for p a p ers , w i t h a view of, at a future period, or i g inating a measure fur the repeal of the Acts relating to the Sinking Fund. He then moved for— " An Account of the Amount received upon each Loan, from the year 1792 up to the present time, stating the Amount of Nominal Capital created, with the Annuity paid upon each." " An Account of the Actual Sums laid out by the Com missioners of the Sinking Fund, together with the Amount of Three per Cent. Annuities thereby received." Also, " An Account of the Expences incurred by the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund, with those of the National Debt Office." The Hon. Gentleman, ip conclusion,' said that he should in candour remark, that in 1815 there were upwards of 60,000,000/. of Unfunded Debt, which, of course, was in considerable part funded since. The question was then put from the Chair, and agreed to without a division. Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from the Friendly Societies of Greenwich, Deptford, and Lewisham, against the Friendly Societies Bill. CORN LAWS. Mr. IfEATFICOTE presented petitions from farmers (we- believe) in the county of Berks, in favour of the Corn Laws. Mr. PORTMAN would give notice, if no other Hon. Member took the subject up, that he would, in the Com mittee on the Corn Laws, move an increase in the scale from Is. to 2s. as the price of Corn descended in value. The petitions were then read, and ordered to be printed. _ FINANCE COMMITTEE. Colonel DAVIES said, that seeing the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chairman of the Finance Committee in his place, he would take the liberty to ask when a Resort was to be expected from the Finance ComiUittee regarding the expenFes of the country ? Sir H. PARNILL should he most happy to give every informetini in his power. The Committee had already examined the Estimates of the Army, the Navy, and Ord nance Departments ; and, at the last meeting of the Com mittee before the holidays, the outline of a report had been agreed to, and he had instructions to prepare a report ac cording to it. The Committee had still to examine the Estimates for Miscellaneous Services ; but he hoped, in the course of the next week, to be able to produce a report for the approbation of the Committee, but it would be im pocsible for him to state the exact period at which a report would be laid on the table, as there was no judging to what extent discussion on its terms might proceed in the Committee. There was another subject to which he should advert, namely, what he had seen stated as to com plaints being made of the manner in which the Com mittee had couched the orders issued by them. He would observe upon that point, that the Committee had sent for about two hundred accounts, and that be 4n self, by their direction, had drawn out most of the orders for ' the purpose, and that, so far from their being unintelligible, or causing trouble, not one of them had been returned as of that description. As respected orders given by other Members of the Committee, he took care to see that they were framed in the best possible manner (hear, hear, from fit. Hume)—and he was, for that purpose, assisted by gentlemen belonging to the Treasury, in whose department the controul of the accounts required was. He thought that this explanation was due from him, as he wished that the Committee should stand well with the House and with the country. . . . Mr. CROKEIt brought up accounts of the receipt and expenditure of Greenwich Hospital, since the last returns. The dropped Orders of yesterday were then read, and the Report on the Irish Bills of Exchange Bill and others were postponed. The second reading of the Election Laws Consolidation Bill was fixed for te-morrow (this day). POOR LAWS. Mr. SLANEY rose to present a petition, signed by the High Sheriff and 29 Magistrates of the county of Norfolk, praying the House to take into their consideration the present state of the Poor Laws. The petitioners said that they were fully convinced of the demoralization of the lower orders, which would continue so long as the poor looked to the parish for support. The petition was read and ordered to be printed. Mr. SLANEY then rose in pursuance of the notice he had given. The importance of the subject was what no one could doubt ; indeed, as regarded the rich, the immense increase of the poor-rates was a point of alarming magni , tude ; but what weighed even more with that class was, the belief that they entertained that the abuse of those laws caused the depression of the condition of the poor, and destroyed that independence which was considered the boast of the peasantry of England. The present he considered an auspicious time to bring the subject forward, because now, ender the advice of his Majesty's Govern ment, measures were about to be passed to prevent the fluctuation of prices in future, and if, therefore, he showed as he could do, that those fluctuations caused the depres sion of the poor, nn time could be more proper than the'pre sent for :‘onsidering the Poor Laws. Those laws were divided into three parts; the first, the law of rating, which Was extremely complex, and upon which therefore, he did not mean to touch. The second was the Law of Settle • ment, on which a Committee wall at present sitting, and taking every pains in its investigation. The third was the Law of Relief, to which he intended to confine himself.— , The persons who were objects of that law were of two classes ; first, those who were described by the original Act of Elizabeth, the lame, the impotent, the old, the Mind, and these unable to work. That class he would not touch upon; and he believed that, whatever might be the opi nions of some speculative persons upon the impolicy of ever having had recourse to legislative enactments for the sup. port of such objects, the far greater majority of the rich in this country would concede a far greater portion of their property for the relief of such persons as those described in the Statute. Far from straitening this bounty, he wished to extend it by depriving another class of that which they now received, and to which his motion exclusively referred —he meant the second.class, namely, those able to work. It was, lie thought, evident to every one who had paid any attention to the subject that this class also resolved itself into two great divisions—first, artisans, mechanics, and their families, who, at the time of the passing of the law, were com paratively insignificant, but whose numbers have extended in a degree more extraordinary than had ever occurred in any other country. They stood in quite a different relation as to means of subsistence from the other classes, where fare any one who wished for alteration should act with ex treme caution, lest by grasping at too much, he might lose all. The other c)ass was that of agricultural labourers, who stood in a relation altogether different to mechanics as respected the demand for their labour, at the same time that, when a vast body, such as seven hundred thousand spinners and weavers, might, at the will of foreign States anfl Potentates, be left to starve, die thought both bene volence and wisdom should lead them to some mode of providing for themselves. There were at present 900,000 members of Benefit Societies, which were intentle.d, in some degree, to operate in this respect ; and the numbers who partook of a more recent im provement were also enormotta. It appeared, by the re turns of last year, that thesums invested in Savings' Batiks aMounted to no less than 15,000,0001., which, allowing 151. for etch depositor, gave no let , s than a million of de positors. The Hon. Gentleman then resumed the subject of able-badied labourers, and stated the increase in the Poor Rates as follows :-- '700,000 In the three years 1748, 1749, and 1750, they came to 1783, 1784, 1785, they were something less than 9,000,000 1803, 1804, 1805 ~,,,,x,000,000 1815 6,000,000 1818 6,800,000 1821, and which was the largest amount,. om 7,000,000 1925 V 5,700,000 . . 1826 5, 900,000 f•??, , 1827 which was an increase of no less than nine per cent. There was something consolatory, namely, that the ahuse of the Poor Laws prevailed only in one part of the kingdom, the southern counties; and that the places were marked out as with fx line, on one side of which there were good wages and low poor-rates, and on the other low wages and high rates. It was also found that the great inzrease toPk place in manufacturing districts, and that too not from any abuse in the Poor Laws, but from other circumstances, and that t li„ x :icultural counties were not at all concerned. He h m „zver, to ask a question, which was, how it came that in iti 7 4,;rnoreland there was an increase last year of 191. per cent. grA Ei rate. In Lancaster, too, where they were well managed, the ;,.,,Fear t was 471. per cent. ; in the Wee Biding of Yorkshire, 311. jcr pent. ; and iu Chester, ell. Ira Aent. ; and in the whole kingdom )l. per cent. As pemns might suppose that there was a dimiuu tion . now, because less was paid 7!..:.:,r) in 1821, he ryas s o i l . ) he should correct the mistake, as the causi, of the difference was the diminution of the prices of corn in a much groqter proportion. The cost of paupers per head was also 4appa rently Sc. or 4 s. diminished from that of 1812—it b e i ng in that year 75., while in 18t3 it wa a 2, In Sussex it wa s more consid erable, as there the prise ;oat i n 1812, IL 13s. per head, and in 1823 it was 11. ; but if we lc,ok at the prices of corn, we see that the average in 1812 was 128 s. the quarter, while in 1823 it was only 575., less than half of the price in 1612. The Hon. Gentleman then praised special vestries, and referred aii p: rsons wi ,, i , ing for information to an Appendix to the Poor-rate he.. turns in 1825 and 1828. By that paper it appeared that the expenses of the poor doubled in every 20 years, while those of law doubled in every 12, it also appeared that the land paid 5-7th of the whole charge, and rpannfactures only 1-24th, and that the charge on the rack rental of tii,i. whole kingdom was from 2s. 10d. to 3e, Bd. in the pound. Then, as to the number of paupers relieved—in 1801, the population being nine Millions, there were relieved one million and forty thousand, or one in pine.— In 1811, when the population was ten millions, the numbers relieved were 1,340,000, or one in eight of the population. In IS 18,.population 12,000,000, there were 1,500,000. In 1826, 1,700,000 —in 1827, 1,800,000. From this it was no wendtr that (Time and misery should increase. He then referred to the report on Scotland in I May, 1818, from which it appeared, taking the population then as compared with England, at one to six, that there were paupers one in 21 ; and that the amount of Poor's rate was one to 46, and the committals and convictions of criminals were in the same proportion. He called atten tion to the case of Scotland, as one highly applicable to this question. Out of 700 parishes only 400 were as sessed with a compulsory rate. The whole amount of poor rates in 1818 was 43,0001., which was less by 6,0001. than the assessment for Sussex. He implored the Home to set him right if he was wrong in his details; and he begged their continued indulgence whilst he endeavoured to trace the causes of that alarming increase of pauperism which demanded so much consideration. He thought the changes in the currency had something to do with these causes; but not so much as had been attributed to them. Sir Edw. West had written a very sensible pamphlet on the "Wages of Labour." By that work it appeared that the fluc tuations in the price of corn from 1768 to 1793 had been only from 40s. to 625. But in 1793 the price rose to 80s. ; in 1800 it was 110 s. ; and shortly afterwards rose to 150 s. In 1808 it had fallen to 725. ; and in 1809, it was 805. ; 1810, 116 s. ; 1814, 965. ; 1817, 110 e. • and in 1821 it h a d come back to 665. Now, he begged the House to look at the condition of the poor labourer in the midst of fluctua tions, whieh in one year made the price of the quartern loaf double what it was the 'preceding year. How could he shape his ex pences or regulate his establishment? The result of such shiftings in price upon the labouring classes was obvious, and their present depression was easily ac. counted for. This, he believed, was the cause of that abuse of the Poor Laws which led to the payment of part of the labourers' wages out of the Poor Rates. The Re port of the Committee of 1824, drawn up in a most sen sible manner, adverted to this point. But, he regretted to say, the labouring poor of this country had to con tend against the enormous evil of a deluge of Irish la bourers, underselling the English in every market for la bour in the country, and actually eating the bread due to the EngliShman and his family. He did not blame the Irish peasant—he was driven to it ; but he did say, that a system which took away the food of the English Libourer to pay the rent of the Irish, was one which demanded serious attention. The means of remedy he would now turn his attention to. He thought the first thing to he done was to deprive of the relief from Poor Rates, idle and able-bodied men. These were the " sturdy beggar," mighty in body and strength, alluded to in the• old statutes. There was a line of territory which em braced sixteen counties in England, which were danger ously tainted by abuses in the administration of the Poer Laws. In the whole of these the wages of labour were paid out of the Poor Rates. There was a regular scale of allowance for all occasions—for sickness, for children, and, in short, for every thing. If a labourer's wife was confined, her husband ran to the overseer, and, announcing the event, demanded so much money. He was sure that no Hon. Member from Sussex, from Hertfordshire, or from Dorsetahire, would contradict him. It was obvious that such a system must he productive of great mischief, in breaking down the distinction between the industrious labourer and the idle profligate. The Hon. 'Member mentioned the case of an orphan brought up by, and entirely dependent upon, the parish funds, who, upon coming of age, thought fit to fall in love with a young pauper of an adjoining parish, and imagining he had a right to a cottage from the parish to house himself and his wife, and a right also to support for himself and his children, insisted on marrying. The overseers opposed the match, but the pauper sent to a Learned Civilian, a Member of that HouSe, for an opinion. His opinion being, that the over seers could not forbid the banns, he supposed now there could be no obstruction to the marriage and all its con sequences. In order to show how the system operated in some of those counties where this practice prevailed, he would give the House an idea from one of the Reports on their table, of the comparative number of labourers receiv ing poor rate relief in three Counties. In Suffolk, it ap peared that out of 2090 labourers, only 670 were estimat ed' as able bodied. In Sussex, out of 3,030, there were but 979 able bodied, being nearly one-third of the whole. In Hertford, out of 2437, there were but 877, which was more than a third of the whole. He was quite sure that this would appear to the House as an alarming evil. As Hertford was a thoroughfare county, it was probable that a number of Irish were included. He was sorry to say that this great evil, tending as it did to degrade the labour- ing population a n d ruin the country, was spreading itself fearfully to the northern counties. In the sixteen coun ties to which he alluded, including the counties of Sussex, Buckingham, Essex, Wilts, Southampton, and Dorset, the average of daily wages in 182-1, was only ed. a.day. In Kent it was ed., hut he had left that county out of his calculation. In the twenty Northern and Welch counties to which he had adverted, not manufactur ing, although he ought to state he included Lan cashire, and where none of those abuses of which he complained prevailed-'—in those counties the aye raze at the same period was one shilling daily. This ought to sliew that these abuses in the expenditure of the Poor "Rates did not in reality benefit the people amongst whom they prevailed. In the counties where the abuses did pre vail, the assessment of Poor Rates was 15s. a-head. In the other, counties it was only Cs. In the former, the as sessment was 4s. in the pound at rack rent ; in the latter, it was only 2s. Gd. If then, it should be practicable to afford relief to the poor, and, at the same time, confer an important benefit upon the, rich, he thought Parliament called upon to apply itself with earnestness to carry any feasible remedy in operation. From the data with which he had furnished himself, and the greater part of which he haft laid before the House, be felt justified in asserting,: that during the last year alone, there might have been effected a saving to the country of 810,0001. But there were higher grounds on which this system required to be amended. A due regard to the morals of the people de manded, for there could scarcely be entertained a doubt by any who reflected seriously on the subject—that the system at present in force was eminently productive of profli gacy. It was worthy of obervation, that whenever wages were high, the rates were lower, and vice versa —thus,' the present system proved a bonus (in low wages. The Hon. Gentleman then made some quotations from the Reports made by Committees of the l'louse on the subject of the Poor Rates, and contended, from the statements which they furnished, that the relation between supply and demand, as respected labour, influenced the rates of wages, and that temporary changes ought to be met by temporary expedients. He then went on to show the inefficacy of an Act of Parliament to effect au increase of the capital of country, and thence inferred the impossibility of producing by a legislative enactment that demand for labour, by which alone the Poor Rates, under the present system, could be kept within reasonable limits. He then entered into several minute details, instancing the case of a single parish, to prove that the imposition of a rate uniformly had the effect_ of producing a proportionate want of em ployment, contending that the case of a parish was per fvotly applicable to a county, and of course to a kingdom. The remedy which he should submit would be twofold — first, to restore the law to its original state; secondly, giving assistance and support to the poor during the un avoidable transitions consequent upon such a change. He begged most distinctly to assure the House that' nothing could be further• from his intentions than to 'proceed in this matter with any degree of haste, the remedy to be at all useful, must be gradual. One of the principal fee titres of this plan would be to produce such an effect as would relieve the country from the necessity of maintain ing the number ofable bodied labourers, with whose support it was at present burdened. These ahls bodied men naturally divided themselves into two, classes; the new applicants for parish relief, and those who might boon be expected to become applicants, on the one hand ; and those, on the other, who probably might not for some time he found in that si tuation. This latter class, he would take fur granted, would be all single men ; then he thought that by g iving them a claim for parish work, leaving a certain fixed pro portion to their previous savings lodged in bank, while in ordinary employmeut—that a considerable improvement wopld be effected. Thus, for every four shillings that they lodged in the Sayings p a ne : , he would confer upon each of them the right of demanding from the overseers a week's perish work. He was not so vain as to expect that his t►n- aided effort could accomplish that which had baffled so many who had gone before him. All that he then purposed was to move, for leave to bring its a Bill—should that he granted, he intended to propose that the Bill be read a first and second time, and then referred to a Select Committee.-- Tl:ere was one important advantage almost certain to ensue from the plan which he meant to propose, namely, that all the able•bodied men would be numbered off from those who could be properly included in that class, and thus such as justly should form objects of his Right Hee. Prie - ,au emigration scheme. He then concluded by mov ing for leave to bring in a Bill to declare and amend the existing laws relating to able-bodied paupers, and also, for the better and more equitable rating of tenements under a certain value. Mt'. N. CALVERT seconded the motion. Mr. PORTMAN entered into a variety of details re specting the operation of the Poor LaWs ; and concllided by saying, that he should not oppose the Hon. Member's proposition, although he did not think that any legislative enactment would have had the effect so proposed. Mr. SLANEY explained; Mr. CRIPPS begged to thank the Hon. Member who had brought the subject forward, although he. must say, that in his opinion he did not think that any practical benefit would accrue from the measure proposed by him. Mr. BURRELL doubted also whether the proposed measure would prove of utility. There was one proposal, however, which would be impossible to carry into effect. He alluded to that by which unmarried men were to lay, or to have laid up for them, a fund saved from their labours when employed, from which they should be pro. portionately supplied when unemployed. Now, it would he impossible for the labourer to lay up money, if, as he feared was the case, he cever at any time got more than enough to keep himself. Indeed, he saw no prospect of relief from the evil which oppressed them except in emi gration.—(Hear.) Mr. W. HORTON admitted the principle of the mea sure ; hut felt by no means confident of success in its adoption, so long as the present superabundant population overwhelmed them. No remedy would be effectual till that superabundance was removed. Yet there were coun try gentlemen who exclaimed against emigration—who called out that people were the wealth of a country, and that to diminish them was to impoverish it. Those who thought so, must be content to give thi) whole of their property to the poor ; if they wished to preserve their property they must discourage this pernicious system. The poor must be made to regulate their marriages by the state of their circumstances, as was done by every class in the community, from the highest down to those who came under the hateful influence of the Poor Rates. Some Gentlemen said that the waste lands ought to he cultiva ted. Now all the effect of that would he to reduce rents. But that would be be a little evil compared with that which was now-suspended over the heads of the Cuuntry Gentlemen ; their very existence as a body was involved in the continuance of the present system of laws. He was astonished at their apathy in not seeking some remedy to the evil with which they were threatened. In his opinion all remedies were futile till the law of England and Ireland were assimulated upon this point. He did not mean to propose the introduction of the English Poor Laws, far from it ; but he should wish that the claims of the poor to relief might he modified in such a manner as to check their marriages. Mr. R. COLBORNE thought much must be left to the good sense and judgment of those who had put the l'oor Laws into execution. Mr. MONCK begged to dissent from one proposition of the Hon. Member's (Mr. Slaney), viz. that of not pro viding for unemployed able-bodied labourers. Now, if the 'able-bodied labourer was refused relief, he Would soon, by want, be rendered infirm, and thus become a much worse burden than if relieved when in health. Perhaps, in this enlightened age, the remedy he should propose would be considered antideluvian, and laughed at; hut really, the only thing, in his opinion, that would be effectual, would be the establishment of a minimum of wages. Then, and then only, they would have a minimum of human misery. Mr. Secretary PEEL agreed in all that had been said with respect to the vast importance of this subject. , Ile agreed also that it was highly desirable that Government should form a decided opinion upon it, but unfortunately it was one of those subjects; which the more it was studied, the more a man was convinced of the difficulty of coming to a positive conclusion.—(Hear.) —He could not think that the want of employment for the people of this country arose from any cessation of productiveness, for within the three last years there had, he would venture to say, been a greater quantity both of agricultural and manufacturing employment than in any other three preceding years in the history of this country.—(Hear.)—How then was it, that the increased rates were to be accounted for ? Did it arise from the operation of the Poor Laws ? If so, how came it that in Ireland, wLere no Poor Laws existed, they were much worse off? In another part of the kingdom, he meant Scotland, there was an intermediate system between that of England and Ireland ; but there also there was dis tress, though not great. His impression was, that is the artificial state of society in which we existed, there was no remedy for the evil. If a new machine were invented, the produce of this country might be in creased, as also the demand for it, and the demand for manual labour might decline. This would produce tem porary distress, but they could only lament it, for prevent it they could not. A remedy could not be devised for the exer cise of ingenuity. He did not, however, mean to throw oh structions in the way of the proposed Bill, on the contrary it should have his cordial support--:but he begged to sug gest one thing to the Hon. Member who had introduced it, viz.—not to confine his attention to the single point to which it was now directed, but to direct it to the other parts of the system, because one of the worst results of tak ing up a single point was the multiplication of laws, and generally of law-suits. The propositions of the Hon. Member were intimately connected with another which was before the House, he meant that relative to the law of settlement. What had been said by an Hon. Friend near him was perfectly true, a great part of the evils of the Poor Laws arose slut of the law of settlement. The great difficulty in meddling -with the law, or of laying down a general rule on these subjects, was the different states of society in the agricultural and the manufacturing districts. But certainly, unless the Hon. Member took the law of settlement into consideration, it would be impossible for him to put some of his ideas into practice. If, for instance, he refused the able-bodied lahourer relief, they must give him leave to carry his labour where he pleased. As the Bill was intended to he sent for examination into a Commit tee, he trusted that the Hon. Member would then take what he had begged to suggest, into his consideration. He would not pronounce a more decided opinion till the matter hail been more discussed ; but he begged, in com mon with the rest of the House, to return the Hon. Gen tleman thanks for the manner in which he hid brought the subject forward, and begged to assure hint that he had his best wishes for his success. Mr. W. WHITMORE had no doubt that distress existed in some agricultural parishes, and for that distress he thought emigration the best remedy. He knew that plans were now going on for aiding the emigration of the unemployed poor of five parishes in Sussex, and that firm expectations were entertained that the measure would bring relief to all parties. He trusted that the Hob. Gen tleman to whom the House was so much indebted would persevere in his efforts; for be had no doubt that an ade quate remedy for this, as well as for every other evil under which the country s uffered, would ultimately be found. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. EMIGRATION. Air. W. HORTON rose in pursuance to his notice to move for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the emigra tion of paaspers_ to their parishes. It appeared from the Report of the Committee, that one hundred thousand paupers, men, women, and children, could not be lodged, fed, and clothed, for less than an average of N. each per annum. The interest of the money calculated as the cost of sending out that number of emigrants was 60,0001., and they should therefore effect an actual saving of the dif ference 0f240,000/. in the first year. But then it was said that the cost ought not to be defrayed by the country at large, but by those who were relieved from the evil ; and that there would be great difficulty in ascertaining who were the parties that ought to pay it. In England there could he no difficulty, because the Pours' Rate sup plied an index to the parties, who woulk be relieved at once. In Ireland, too, he was ready to prove that a large Poors' Rate was actually paid in one shape or another. lie should not go more at large into this past of the subject then, because it was his intention, during the remaining part of the Session, to bring forward a substantive mea sure for a pecuniary grani to be applied to the purposes of emigration, upon which he should take the sense of the Liouse. He would only repeat his question to his Right Hon. Friend—whether the presence of 100,000 more labourers than there was a demand for did not operate as a tax, and whether their removal would not be a relief to the community at large, provided the vacuum was not filled up ? The Right rion. Gent. having concluded an extract from the Committee's Report, hoped there would be no objection to his present proposal for leave to bring in a Bill to enable parishes in England, under given regu lations, and for a limited period, to mortgage their poor rates for the purpose of assisting voluntary emigration. Mr. WARBURTON bore testimony to the great in dustry and seal of the Right Hon, Gentleman, but could not concur at present ire the reasoning upon which his motion was founded. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN thought that the ?lan was liable to many objections, but that the pet mission to parishes to borrow on their Poor Rates was one of the most reprehensible powers which could, under any circum stances, be given to them. Mr. HUSKISSON expressed Isis perfect readiness and anxiety to enter upon the discussion of his Right Hon. Friend's propositions, for no one could doubt the immense importance of the considerations and the interests which they involved, however he might dissent from some part of the reasons upon which they were founded, or from the conclusions to which he had come. Air. CALCRAFT was of opinion that it was due both to the Right Hon. Mover and the Committee to allow the Bill to be brought in. Mr. A. BARING thought the subject involved in con siderable difficulty, but thought that his Right Honourable Friend ought to have leave to exhibit his Bill, in order to a. proper examination of ice machinery. He strongly ap proved of emigration, but it should be voluntary, and every preparation should be made as to location, &c. be forehand, as well as aid in the way of transport and other facilities, by the Colonial Department. Mr. Seel etary PEEL said that his Right Hon. Friend, TO COMMERCIAL TRAVELLERS AND OTHERS, ALBION HOTEL, HAYMARKET, SHEFFIELD. TRAVIS respectfully informs his nu • morons Friends, Commercial Gentlemen, and the Public in general, that he has lately entered upon that spacious Inn, THE ALBION HOTEL, situate in the Haymarket, Sheffield, so many years known as " Healey's Hotel," where he trusts he shall meet with that encourage ment which, by an unremitting attention to business, it will be his constant study to deserve. The Premises have recently been most elegantly fitted up, and nothing conducive to the comfort of those who !nay honour him with their Patronage will be found wanting. Wines and Spirits at a moderate charge..—Good Beds and Stabling. however they might differ upon some points of detail, was fully entitled to credit for the pains be had bestowed upon this subject, as well as for being the first to draw the at tention of the country to it. He was as desirous of emi gration as any one, but thought it would he productive of much more benefit were it voluatary, than compulsory. He did not think the Bill should be limited in its opera•. tien to the county of Sussex, but should he general, and, at all events, that it was entitled to the consideration of the House. Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN explained. Mr. HUME was opposed to any thing like compulsory emigration, and thought it would be as though four-fifths had the right to bind the other fifth, and compel them to emigrate. Mr. W. NORTON replied. The question was • then put and agreed to without. a division. The other Orden( of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. PRICES OF HUSH STOC :S.—DUBLIN, APRIL 15. Bank Stock —' St. Patrick incur. (per sh.) Consols, 3 percent. Royal Irish Ditto Gov. Stock, 334 per cent.... 91 1 A National Ditto Ditto, New 9 1 1,1 Patriotic Ditto — t per Cent. 1007‘ Hibernian Bank — Gov. Deb. fl} per cent.... 9:1 , 4 I Provincial Ditto Royal Canal Stock ... 4O Royal Irish Mine — Grand Canal Stock Imperial Mine City Deb. 4 per cent 8.5 Miffing Co. of Ireland Ballast Office Deb. 4 e. ct. I Commercial Buildings — HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE TO-MORROW. Morning... 5 minutes after 5. I Evening ....30 minutes after 5. NATIONAL SILK WEAVERS' SO -11 CIETY and SCHOOL, 15, Devonshire-square, Bishopsgate. _ Under the Patronage of His Grace the Duke of Lady W. F. Gordon. Grafton. Lady G. Gore. Dowager-Countess of Stan- Lady Norris. hope. Earl Cornwallis. Hon. Mrs. Vernon. Lady Pitham. Lady Anstruther. Lady Waldegrave. Viscount Hampden. i Lady Page Turner, &e. &c. A GENERAL MEETING of the Subscribers, Nobi lity, Gentry, and Public, will be held at the LONDON TAVERN, on WEDNESDAY, April 23, 1828, S. HARRISON, Esq., in the Chair, to consider the best means of raisin(' a further Sum of Money, in addition to the 6,0001. already advanced, for carrying the views of the Society into full effect; giving employment to 400 Opera tive Weavers, and SOO other persons concerned in the Silk Trade. Also enabling them, out of their profits, to Educate 500, and Clothe 200 of their Children. N. B. Loans of I/. or upwards, will be thankfully re ceived at the Establishment, and, after a certain time, returned with 5 per cent. interest. By Order of the Committee, W. G. GARLAND, Sec. The Chair will be taken at Two o'Clock precisely. The Children of the School Sri l be in attendance. tc - A, cildQZ , 4_, 11111t 1/4,ktArkf. LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 18, 1828. The Debate 'last night in the House of Lords was highly interesting, and will repay the careful perusal of all who are concerned in the welfare and tranquillity of the country. The repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts was moved for by Lord HOLLAND, in a speech of great ability, and was se conded by the Archbishop of YORK, who, with the Bishops of LINCOLN, DURHAM, and CHESTER, de serve the thanks of their country, as well as of the Church of England, to which the sentiments con tained in their speeches are calculated to give se curity and endurance to the end of the world. As to the Speech of the Duke of WELLINGTON, we are only afraid that, if he makes many such, we shall lose all character far consistency, by becoming as much an admirer of his political career as of his military glory. It was really replete with argu ment, candor, and liberality. The poor Ultras did not muster very strong, and never attempted a diNision. The venerable Earl of ELDON, as we predicted uplifted his voice against the danger which threatened the Church, by not continuing to prostitute the Holy Sacrament to secular purposes; but it is fair to give the Noble Earl (as all Juries ought to do) the benefit of the doubt, whether he is capable of, separating Church from State even in receiving that solemn ordinance. Having, probably never felt that delicacy on the subject, which Lord GODERICH so creditably avowed, he cannot comprehend how any man should feel difficulty in going through what he finds so very easy, and he consequently lays any hesitation about it to the score of contumacy. In the House of Commons, last night, Mr. SLANEY brought forward the subject of the Poor Laws, in a speech of great ability and research, which drew forth approbation from all quarters. We quite agree, however, with Mr. PEEL that the whole question should be considered together, and that as able-bodied men certainly ought not to be provided for out of the Poor-rates, so, on the other hand, they should not be prevented by tyrannical Laws of Settlement, from bringing their labour to ,the best market which they can find. But let Mr. PEEL himself take up the sub ject if he wishes any good alone, and his own name I immortalised. The arrival of the Gazette de France of Wednes day, yesterday, has anticipated the news w hi c h we should otherwise have to give. ihe Parliamentari Debate, of last night, prevents our giving th e new project of a law for restoring the liberty of the Press in France. The Austrian Observer of the 7th contains the conclusion of the Greek Patriarch's Address to his countrymen, which is couched in the same strain of folly as the preceding part, and equally likely to con vince men who, before they grasped the sword of independence, --- had set their lives upon a cast, And dare to stand the hazard of the die. We shall give the document to-morrow. - Dutck and Brussels Papers to the 17th inst. have been received, this morning, but we have no room for extracts. Their contents are however unimport ant. The Dutch Minister of Finance, died at the age of 61. The Prussian State Gazette, to the 12th inst. contains no news from St. Petersburgh. AMSTERDAM, APRIL 15.—Exchange on London, 1Q 05 Two Months, 12 0. By the Leeward Island Mail letters have received from Laguayra to the end of February ; would appear from their contents tbat.the country was in a very unsettled and disturbed state. BOLI VAR, it is stated, was intriguing to prevent the great National Convention from meeting at Ocana, under the impression that SANTANDER would have a majority of Votes; with this view all the papers which are favourable to the latter have been sup pressed, and a new paper under the political views of BOLIVAR h as been established. In all these measures it appears General PAEZ is a zealous ad vocate, and enters . into all the plans of the PRESI- DmEeNstT. severe e e pi P in o c h i c p e le, re w g i i t il h at s io p n ie s s are innumerable. n°lv lq on the been is impossible for any person, particularly foreigners o go from one town to another without a passport,. and even when arrived at his destination, he has to take out another, for which he has to pay six vols. his stated that no one can have even a visitor in his house, either in the evening or at night, without being subject to the most vexations sus' picion;—and it is observed, that the Police use . the„ most arbitrary acts, s uc h as were never exercise even in France during the reign of NAPOLEON. Ii short, according to these accounts, every thing wear a most gloomy aspect in Colombia, and trade was is a very desponding state. SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE-(THIS DAY, FROM LLOYD'S. - - - DEAL, APRIL 17.—Wind S.S.W. from London, the Byron, Moore, for Hamburgh; Casa , Watt, for Bengal ; William and Henry, Hartwell, for k maica. The Valiant, from the Mauritius, sailed for the River this morning. PLYMOUTH, APRIL 16.—Wind W.S.W.—Arrived tb e Sarah and Ann, Metcalf, from London for Miramichi. FALUOUTH, APRIL 16.—Wind W.S.W.—Off port , the Juno, from the Mediterranean, Ileadras, from P er mute bum, and Mary, from Demerara. Arrived, the Lord Ow hart packet, from St. Thomas's, in 29 days ; the Robert' Fuge, Gordon, Laguna, and the Ceylon, Davidson, froo London, bound to Ceylon. The Navarin, Mathew, was totally wrecked at St. 10 - chael's, on the 29th ult.—Crew and materials saved. MA ROAM, APRIL 16.—Arrived off port, Laconia, Bain , and William Henry, Hartwell, from Jamaica. Doyen., Aran. 17.—Wind S. S.W.—Arrived off port) Brunswick, Kelsey, from St. Michael's. BRISTOL, .APRIL 17.—Wind S.W.—Arrived the Susan' Penton, from Demerara. DUBLIN, Aram 16.—Wind S.E.—Arrived the Effort' Sullivan, from Trinidad; and Doisboracoes, froo St. Jibes. BELFAST, APRIL 15.—Arrived the Caroline, Karr' from Alicant. LIMERICK, APRIL 15.—Arrived the Jane, Lane, fry' London. TUE FUNDS-(TIES DAY). CITY, TWICLVR o' O,OCr. The brief but pithy speech made by the French Minis' ter, with 1r hich he introduced the project of a law, authors-+f ing the Government to contract a loan for four millions 0 Rentes, avowedly occasioned by the situation of politica' affairs with Turkey, is considered, notwithstandirg th e qualifications and expressions of peace it contains, to hail somewhat alarmed the confidence of people in the City, the effect of which is already apparent in a decline in the Funds. Consols opened at 844, sellers, and have declined to S 4 *, with little business doing. During the morning there have been several repOrts of the contents of the dee' patches the Russian Ambassador received yesterday, being decidedly hostile. There is also a repetition of the rumour that our Government and France have not exactly ag reed on several points ; nay, that matters have assumed a serious cast. India Bonds remain at 96 8, and Exchequer Bin g at 63 4 pin. The Foreign Funds are inactive to-day; the account , ' brought by the Leeward Mail are, however, of a veil gloomy character, as relates to the state of Colombia ; trigue, suspicion, and distrust, were at their height in tha t unhappy country. The Liberator is now suspected to h e working with all his might to prevent the grand convontio s from being held at Ocana ; the price of the Bonds, 231 Mexican, 3.24 31 ; Russian are quoted at 87 ; Danish ' 584 94; Portuguese, 59i 60: 1 ,-, the latter having detline ° a trifle. The only novelty to be mentioned in Shares is that the famous Tlalpuxalma, upon which 270/. have been psi u ', were sold yesterday at the miserable and ruinous price 0 ' IL per share, Three per Cent. Consols, 84 I ; Ditto, for the Ac" count, 84 ; Three and a-half per Cent. Reduced, 90; Four per Cent., 101* ; India Bonds, 96 s pn. ; chequer Bil!g, 63 4 par. TWO O'CLOCK.—Consols, 84 THREE o'CLOCK.—Consols, 84k k. FOUR O'CLOCK.—CLOSING PRICES , Consols 84 _ 1 Danish 59 _ . Do. for Ae• 84Z Greek, 1825 161 Brazilian Bonds Buenos Ayres Chilian Do. Columbian, 1824. Mexican, 1825 :33 Peruvian Russiatt 871 Spanish, 1821 11i THE MARKETS.-(THIS DAY.) CORN EXCHANGE. The supplies reported are moderate of all kinds of Grai n ' There is much dulness in the Wheat trade at present, 00 ., this article scarcely supports Monday's quotations. Bat l 4 is rather scarce, and the late prices are fully maintaiao; Beans and Pease remain as last quoted. There is litt doirg in the Oat trade this week, and the prices of 0 0/ article are unaltered. The Flour trade is heavy. ARRIVALS. I Wheat. I Barley. I Oats. I F10ut..., Engliih 3,700 qrs. 2,700 qrs. 1,409 qrs. 4,4405ae ,r Irish 750 - 9,600 Foreign GENERAL AVERAGE PRICE OF BRITISH CORY' S For the Week ended April 11, 1528, made up from the Retur l l, of the Inspectors in the different Cities and Towns in Englar and Wales, per Imperial Quarter. 0 1 Wheat-- 555. Od. 1 Oats 4,-- 20g. 10d. 365, Barley.--. 315. Od. 1 Rye 31s. '7d. 1 385. 4 " Per Winchester Quarter. 4. Wheat......-51s. 3d. I Oats —........ 20s. 2d. I 8ean5..........355. Barley 30s. Id,' Rye —30 s. Bd. 1 Pease IMPERIAL AGGREGATE AVERAGES of the SIX WEEKS PRECSDI Wheat......— 51s. Od. I Oats 203. 10d. I Beans-- 38s. Off, 8ar1ey......... 30s. 4d. 1 Rye ..... 325. Id 1 Pease...—... 38s. Ds; NEWGATE AND LEAI)ENHALL MARKETS. At per stone, by the Carcass. 4 s. d. to s. d. s. d. to s. i , Beef S 8 4 8 Veal Hutton 3 8 4 8 Pork 4 4 d Lamb......... ss. 6d. to 6s. Bd. Extract of Letter from St. Kitt's, • datea March 11 :—" Last week there were four privaters, of t ; der Buenos Ayrian colou rs , a t St. Eustatia., with thf r. prizes, whose cargoes have been sold at from 80 tr 40,000 dollars. A ship of about four hundred said fifty tor'', laden with co ff ee , h as b een l a t e ly carr i e d i n t o St. Eustal and is now fitting out as a man-of-war brig. A ship, 509 tons, laden with cotton and hides, from PernambO r I to Europe, is now laying under the island of Sabo, a prif Prince LEOPOLD visited his MAJESTY yes l terday at his palace, in St. James's. • The Duke of LEEDS and Sir WM. Cr,ts' TON had audiences yesterday of the KING. The Duchess of GLOUCESTER visited th e Princess AUGUSTA yesterday. Yesterday afternoon at four o'clock, a courie l arrived at Ashburnham-house, Dover-street, (the re p ' dence of Prince LIEvEN, the Russian Ambassador) fro; St. Petersburgh, bringing despatches from the Russ o Government for his Excellency. Prince ESTERIIAZY (the Austrian Amba s ' sador), the Marquis de PALMELIA (the Portuguese Af ll bassador), and Count 'MUNSTER (the Hanoverian Minister); had interviews yesterday with the Earl of DUDLEY, at tb Foreign Office, D o wning-street. A meeting of several of the Cabinet Minister ° and some official gentlemen, took place yesterday mornitt at the office of the Board of Trade, Whitehall. The Dot r of 'WELLINGTON, Mr. Secretary HusEtsSoN, ri te present- PE EL an d M r . S e cretary He C HARLES GRANT, and Mr. ARBUTHNOT, were am O' those m r. Secretary K isSON transacted business yesterday with the Camscsl/ LOR of the EXCHEQUER. Count de MOLTKE, the Danish Minister' transacted business yesterday, at the Colonial Of6 ce ' Downing -str ee t. Despat c h es were rece i ve d y es t er d a y, at tb e Foreign Office, Downing-street, from Viscount GrO lj ' VILLF., ohr Ambassador at Paris. The Duke and Duchess of G Lo uc E so l : honoured th e A rc hbishop of Volts - . with their comparli e t , dinner on Wednesday, at his residence in Grosvenor-se t t —Their Royal Highnesses accompanied his Grace t o o t , concert of ancient music, in the King's Coucert - r o° Hanover-square. His Grace was the Director for t evening. MADEMOISELLE SONTAG.—This uei.r , '' Ad singer made her second appearance last night a . ° i ', Italian Opera, and was received with the same enth osi as before. She improves upon acquaintance, and will , doubt not, be the reigning star of the season. o p CIIANGES.—CoIoneI Wall, from his s e e r Worthy Park, Winchester, Hants, for Worcestershire ;_ st ,i, James Little and John Little, Esq. froi the Berners for Brighton. PRINTED and PUBLISHED by M. YOU-At", SUN OFFICE, No. 112 &land. // ~v f f; .. : N 'l3l lUed 'att ed I , 2„ s i nit '%lta . sau . :7—• " .• , e1 9 71 1 414 r., . "113 •w?.14.) • • Irdei Palms laland • Biaho His Gr Doves hot Hon. Ludy Visa) ' A • TAV :; AR ti •'*bean! the 6, Sociei five tradt . . iCVeC reinn Tb Tb :H alt th '" • " th they the Ai 110 ot MID( to a ll attic] Hz State, age sive 0 will RI , 441 Seve Coll, Yalu B Stor ekes F cad L '•`' ,_ f 1 6fi iut ,14 kY4104.0 likut :±i 111!.4141 ~r;) ~~ , rtt!"-1 1 , ,, *4,34411 !hi), art " 11:14 44p ele be • ' tat 4 J. t.) soon ..___ Gar The p 1