The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-14 00:00:00

/sod voirstitutional authority of this Ilimae "—Agreed to. Mr. Cocavre teal said, it had been stated to him to lie very desirable to determine whether Mr. Holibouse shoold he committed to Newgate or elsewhere. He should therefore move, that lie be taken into custody of the Serjeant at Arms, leav ing it to the House to decide on his future tottiou as it thought fit. Mr. BfinUGHAM, before the motion was put, wished to know if there was any - netessity•for this intermediate step. Ile thongter It bard that Mr. Moblomae should have to pay the fees to the Ser jeant, and encounter the delay to Which - this mea sure would subject him. He thought it quite sufficient that he should be committed to New gate or elseveh4e, to-morrow. He was now per forming the offices of filial piety, and gone to visit his father, who was alarmingly ill, while ;yet it wns in his power. As for the course resolved upon, lie was and ever was of opinion, that it was the only one which the could, eon eis'endy with its dignity pursue, when its ptivi leges were infringed, and he would always pro test ,igainst •their sending their cases to any in feller Court. Mr. CoußTitteAY in explanation, protested that it was quite doe to himself to be permitted to.say a few words. He was surprised and astonished -at the Learned Gentleman's tirade against proposi;ion, especially as he had only adopted it, altering his original "notion, at the request of one of the Learned Gentleman's own friends, who bad come across the House to desire him to sub stitute the more lenient mode of committal for the present to the . Setjenot, to the more regular Course of committal to Netegate. For this con cession he was attacked by the Learned Gentle nolo with an impotation of harshness--(Heat !) End was now left nu abet native but to move, that John Cam Hohhouse be committed to iris sty'. Gaol of. Newgate. This motion was put. Mr. Baotroxam explained, and still thouelit that the previous committal to the Setjeant would be a hardship. Mr. ELLICE said, that in consequence of the warm friendship which he telt for Mr. Hob house, when that Gentleman had determined to avow himself the author of the pamphlet, and foreseeing the probable consequences which might ensue, he, (Mr. Ellice) had been anxious to in epiire into the state of that place, where it was likely his friend might be sent. The information hr bad obtained was, that it would be almost impossible to receive him in Newgate, unless he was sent to share a place with convicted felons.— h was on this account that he had gone over to the Honourable Mover, and requeced him to alter his rt salotion, and therefore if any blame was attached to that step, he was hound to say that ;IS object was to serve Mr. Hobhouse. Mr. WYNNt: noticed some difficulty that °c entred to him in point of regularity with respect to the motions. The only person two could ta k e an offender against the House into custody, was the Seijeant-at-Artos or his Deputy, and there tore unless the first motion was, that Mr. Hob house be taken into custody by the Serjeant, he did not see how his committal could be made out. different from the case of parties at the air who were immediately placed iu custody of titter Oificer, for here the party was at large. The SPEAKER offered a few words on the point of form. It was true that parties were frequently taken into custody by the Serjeant prior to the final determination of punishment, but it was also tute that in other cases a direct order could be given for committing to prison. The reason for the double order, he presumed, to be where the individual was not known, or it was not ascer tained where he could be found, that they might be sure of the execution of their order. Here, however, theie seemed to be no difficulty of that kind. And it should be recollected, that when the direct proceeding was adopted, and the Speaker issued his warrants, there were two, one to the Serjeant to take the party into custody, and another to the Keeper of Newgate to receive the prisoner. There were instances enough to sa tisfy the House as to the regularity of tliis mode of pr oceedin Sir C. BURRELL began some remarks by alleg ing that the Gaoler of Newgate would have no right to take charge of a prisoner without a pro per warrant, and therefore Mr. Hobhouse must deliver himself.—(Cries of No, No ! Mistaken ) The SPEAKER supposed that the Hon. Member had not heard distinctly what he stated ; lie again dsfined the course of proceeding, and remarked, that any refusal of the Gaoler would be hume diately treated as a gross contempt.—(Hear.) Sir C. BURRELL bowed to this, but took an op portunity of reverting to the statement of an Hon. Member relative to the situation of the prison._ It could never be meant to send a Gentleman of Mr. Hobbouse's condition of life into contact with felons; and the House, he was sure, had no desire to punish him with this severity. He put it, therefore, to them, in common kindness, to allow time for considering to what place of con finement he should be sent. SPEAKIIII.--1139 the Hon. Baronet any Amendment (0 propose ? . Sir C. BURRELL-1 move, as an Amendment, that atter the words " committed to," instead of Lis Majesty's Jail of Newgate, the words " the custody of the Seijeant at Arms" be substituted. Mr. ELLICE seconded the Amendment. COURTENAY said, this put the matter back exactly to where he had it when the Hon. Gen tleman opposite (Mr. BroughAtn) thought fit to attack him. He assured the House that he was actuated by the same feelings as the Hon. Baro net and the Hon. Seconder, and as he wished it to be ascertained whether Newgate was in a proper state to receive the prisoner, he should willingly accede to the Amendment. tiir C. BURRELL said, tat his only object was to (Ford lime to inquire into the accommodation. Mr. CoonTENAY then suggested, in order to preclude the idea that this was the ultimate pu nishment, that instead of being committed to the Serjeant at Arms, the words should be, " taken into custody by the Serjeant." Mr. Alderman Woop•vouched for the unfitness of IN e..ss. ga: c, a; present, for the reception of a Gentleman of Mr. iinhhouse's rai:k There were 300 prisoners tried at the Sessions, and the nc cummadation was wrctebeil. If were allrim ed, however, it might be possible to obtain that aceonimodatk4l in sonic of the apartments signed to the Law Officers-, which could not be !. found'within (be wails. Mr. R. MARTIN said, he was the lAst person living to propose any aggravation of punishment tipoii att individual, but he . been long enough a Member of that House to have seen persons, certainly not more guilty than the subject of their present discussion, committed to the prison of Newgate, without any attempt to qualify the sen tence. He could not understand, because this person was richer and better informed than others who had offended, and been punished before him, howit tonld he contended that they were right in mitigating his punishment in a mariner not thought of in other cases.-- , (llear, hear, bear !)—lf they did so, he was convinced the imputation upon them would be, that they were afraid to deal with him as they ought. If Newgate was in - the state th a t h a d b een riresented, he cvas equally con , - vinced that it •was unfit for the other prisoners whose offrnees . rendered them Halle to be sent thither. They ()tight t►► Make no ►listinctions of persons, but only look to the equality of the law and the equality of crimes. It, after the due ad miUistration of the practice, a petition was pie seoted on the score either Of ill health, or the un wlttult•semeness of the place, he should be as ready as any ratan to "accede to ifs piayer. But he would rather get rid of the present course altogether, by moving for a prosecution by the Attornt-y-Gene ral, titan he tvOuld consent to a partial measure at a crisis like (hr. present. Sir F' BURDEVT rose amid some confusion, which rt ndered the few words with which he com menced inandihk, but we gathered from the cries of order nod interference of the Sneaker, that they were such as could not be listened to in the Huuse. The SPEAKER was sure that a 'little refleetiun would induce the Lion. Bdronet nut to persist in adopting this line of argument. Sir F. littant.pr resumed, and expressed .his opinion that the House hail not sufficiently considered the whole of the pamphlet. How. ever gross the language was in particultir passages (which lie did not mean to detend), he felt assured that it never was the intention of the author to excite to the employment of brute force, as bad been imputed to him. The Hon. Baronet was proceeding to read a portion of the publication to show that it was not libellous, when called to order by Lord CASTLEREAGerI , who observed that it was not open to the Hon. Baronet to take this course and go into the publication to disprove its being of that nature which bad been decided by kvote of the House. The question now before them was the punishment of the offender, not the qua lity of the offence, which they had already de clared. Air. BNOUGHAM agreed so far with the Nuble Lord, that the pamphlet coultl not now be gon e into to prove that it was not a libel ; but he con tended that it might still he referred and urged, as all other matters might be, in extenuation.— They were At liberty to say that it was every thing short of a libel in mitigation of punish ment. Sir F. BuRDETT said, the laws of the Noble Lord were more severe than those - of Rhadaman thus himself. Rhadamanthus punished it was tine, but lie heard afterwards ; - but the House punished and would not hear at all. This roo arose out of a strange and extraordinary trial, and abrupt condemnation, for that which others might do with impunity. To show how breaches of privileges might be committed without even censure, he would read the remarks of a Morn ing Paper upon a discussion in that House, and a more gross contempt, be asserted, never was committed. Lie referred to The Morning Post of Friday. The Hon. Baronet was about to read the animadversions alluded to, when Mr. W. WYNNII rose to order. He asked if it could be possible to affect the decision of the House by superadding the proof of one breach of privilege to another I (le-ohjected entirely to any Newspaper being read. It was against the order, and rules of the Nonce, and could not he done in any case without the permission of the House,and then as the ground for a co'tplaint of breach of Sir P. BURDETT contended, that the impunity allowed to other parties, was a strong grount4 of extenuation in favoor ()lan individual selected tor punidiment. As for - himself, he never could agree that writing was a breach of privilege, or a con tempt. ir was merely cons! ructive, and ought not to be considered a positive offence, and he would, as firmly as any other Member, resist an inroad upon their real privileges. The Hon. Ba ronet WAS again about to read from The Morning Post, but • Mr. BANK Cs rose, and objected to s his commit. ting this violation of the rules of the House. Mr. BnotionAst spoke to order, amid cries of Chair. They all knew that they ought to yield to the decisions of ale Chair ; but he would be abdicating his functions as a Member of Parlia ment, if he slid not, before that decision was pro nounced, throw out what struck him as necessary to be stated on the subject. The course wished to be taken by the Hon. Baronet was at all times used to be pursued in mitigation of punishment. It was done in the case of Mr. Reeves, and in the case of The True Briton. No order of the House applied 10 the not reading of Newspapers which du: not evally apply to pamphlets ; yet no one stopped the Hon. Member for Yorkshire (Mr. S. IVortley) when he read those passages which bad led to the business of this evening. No one got up and said to that Hon. Gentleman, " Sit down, Sir, you have no tight to read pamphlets herr" Ile was not interrupted as the Hon. Baronet had been. Yet the order was the same in the one case as in the other, and the irregularity then the same as the irregularity now. Mr. BANKEs in reply, said he "as not more accountable for the lion. Member's not being ,topped, than the Learned Gentleman, or any other Member was. But now, when the atten tion of the Hollse Was distinctly drawn to a point of order, they could not shut their eyes to the cou'Ausion that they must abide by their own roles. The Hon. Member for Yorkshire b a d merely rea d hunt the pamphlet to illustrate the arguments Le was maintaining, and it was not un usual to set Members , do so as parts of their speech. But it could not thence be inferred, that it '.vas competent to state matter, the first words o f which were a breach of plivilege. The SPRAKER said, perhaps the Howe w ou ld at low bits to state what occur red to him on the order of their proceedings. It had been decided that an offence had been committed, and it was therefore too late to go into the pamphlet, or any argument to disprove that fact. When, however, the House were discussing the - award of punishment, he conceived it to be open to any Member to al lege what was suggested to !din in extenuation. The House must he perfectly aware that the pro duction of any paper (he could see no difference between a pamphlet and a newspaper), could only be allowed ia cases of breach of privilege,_and any Hon. Gentleman bringing either under notice, was bound to prefer the complaint. It appeared that the line of condtict taken by the Honourable Baronet would have been widely different had it been adopted before the House decided on the libel from what it was after that decimion. In the former case, the Honourable Baronet might have argued. that this was the grossest breach of ptiri lef:e, and denied the punishment of the %ye:diet-, as this was not visited. But, as that question was now determined, (hey must yilocced on it, and no allegation of another libel was in poiot;— it must be felt, that advancing any quotation as a stronger libel must be 'objectionable on tsv o points ; first, that if this had been adduced, it would not have appeared that it was a libel; and secondly, non conslat, that as it was a libel, and a greater libel than the other, it would not have ex refloated it. With regard to reading from printed papers as parts of speeches, Members would per haps feel it personally incumbent upon thew not to stretch that license which the House gave for convenieney to the injury of justice. Mr. WYNNE said, no Member could read front a !Hinted paper, except by leave from the House, unless it was to bring that paper before them as a breach of privilege. The SPRAKER observed, that the ordinary course of reading extracts was, he conceived, a pr act ice ailowed.for.genetal convenirncy, and the strict order of the [louse was still in operation to pre vent its abuse.—(Hear.) Mr. STUART WORTLEY explained, :hat he had not brought forward tl►e breach of privilege, hot referred to the •pamphlet in support of the argu ment he was using. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, as it was so (lit-B -elli( to (1.0 What he had intended, he should rib.; stain from pressing his slew of the question. After a fer wor►h from Sir C. 13uttattLii, the 'lunge ►divided on the amendment. The Tiestion was, that the words" to his Ma jesty's gaol of Newgate" proposed to he admitted, stand part of the motion. Ayes NOl, MajOritY 198 65 On our ke,adinittance to the 6:dlery, Lord Nu- GENT was 00 his legs, but the noise prevented our bearing what he Rah!. The SPEAKER put the question, That John Cain flobhouse be con►mitte►l to Newgate, and that the Speaker do issue his warrant accordingly.— Agreed to. NEW MEASURES. Air.. BARNHT presented a petision front certain Inl,HhitAnt s , of Rochester, against the passing of the Re,sttictive Measures at present in :heir pro gress through the House, . whi c h Ihey e o ns id er ,d as snbvrtsive of the Constitution. Atter a few wofils from the Ilon. I\ieniber on the subject of its contents, The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and to he printed. Mr. CALVERT presented a petition from the. In habitants of the Borough of Soothwark, expres sive of their reprobation of the Measeres at pre sent in their course through the House, aid of the Seizure of Arms Bill in partic , olar. The Hron. Gentleman observed, that it woodd not appear ex traordinary that he had not hitherto beets able to find an opportunity of stating his sentiments on the momentous questions referred to in the Peti tion he now held in his hand, wnen it was coo sidered that there were six hundred and fitty eight Members in that House, most of them anxious to speak, and some of them not satisfied with speaking once on the same question. The Honourable Gentleman briefly went over the transactions of the 16th of August 1 ist, he said, he viewed with korror. The :new- , ns ployed to disperse the meeting of the people on that occasion were rigorous in the extreme, and unnecessary. He would pot it to any one, who. was of a different opinion, how it was possible to disperse, according to law, upwards of 50,000 persons in the course of a few minutes. He also contended that if Ministers were to go wo tuoch longer in the same course they had followed with regard to this question, they would raise a skirls in the country which the adoption of measures like the present would in vain labour to quell. 09 the goes:ion being put from the Chair— ' That this Petition be now brought up. Sir ROBERT WILSON followed his Hots. Friend in support of the - Petition. He observed, that while his Constituents, in whose behalf this Pe tition was presented, were the firm friends of peace and good order, and determined to d, fend the Constitivion, they were by no nseany inclined to give up the tried and acknowledged maxini, that the people were the source of power. 1 he Petitioners complained that they saw its the Bill for the Seizure of A 11145 it revolutionary mode of governing. They saw in the Libel Bill a deter initiation, not to remove solely all sedition awl blasphemy from, the press,' but to remove indefi nitely nli that should he obnoxious to that system of .despotism which the riders of this contrary were endeavouring to establish, They saw in i! ! ,, whole measures a tendency to abolish the sa cred right of meeting for the purpose sit dis cussing grievances, and of petitioning Patna merit on the same. It had toil hems beer, held that an Etoglishman's house was his castle, aloond which the elements miAt whi•tle, and which they might enter, but which the King might not enter. What load now become of this notio n . The subject was to be exposed to have his bolts broken open; the peace and domestic order of his house interrupted, and to 1 - ,:e exposed to the brutal violence and lust of midnight hived erS. declar e , that if stIC I . IIW : sures were allowed to pass, th e on l y reme dy „ their opinion was, that his Majesty's ,Nlinivers declared unworthy of the Royal confidence, 1 4 that it was hoped and ex p ecte d f i lm they , v ( P'. he dismissed ;---but, if they should still co ntia l in the confidence of th e S overe i gn , t h e y fearea. system of oppression would be persevered I : against the people, which would goad them ° to show that it ..was beyond their power of sutle r ance. The Petition was then brought up, ordered 10 lie on the table, and to be jointed. MESsAGI; FROM THE LORDS. A Areasa ge from rise Loral was received, notmcing that their 14 , trdships had passed a IP:, for the purpose of preventing delays iu the adol l i nistratioo of justice, in case of misdemanors, 11° , 1 desiring the concurrence of the Ll o nse to (a same —On the Motion of Lord CasTeErtEma ° ' this Bill was read a first time, and ordered tot second reading on Wednesday next. SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL. Lortl CASTLRREAUti moved the third reading ° the Seditious Meetings Prevention Bill. do t Lord Attonta-ALb HAMILTON declared, voiing as he -was about to do, in favour Of 1111 ; measure, he gave his vote wi h more regret th i ; ever he did on tiny former occasion, as he '' s e about to differ trout his Honourable Friends ne e hint. No one could resp ec t m ote hi g hl y t h a n l i e did, the rights of his fellow countrymen, but thA freedom of time present times seemed to const s4 ,,, i ; an abose'of those rights, a nd t o b e emp l oye d o°l for the purpos e of t a ki ng awa y t h e • r i g hts r e others. He hoped that iu giving his vote on present occasion, he would not be understood -0 i acquiescing in_the other measures of Ministers that either his duty to his country, or his ciples were compromised by acting thus. b b i g object ,doing so, teas to perform th a t dutYl", more sincerely. He admitted all the object-jai urged against the Bill by his Honourable ;ifien(l9 but lie teas internally convinced, th at th e W t, of the mannfarturiog districts, was such as 1r. .; mantled some measure of that description, 0 144 :: 0 .was that conviction alone that infl , ienced Vote.—(Hear Mr. HUTOHINSoN believed, in his soul, (hart ° ? Lord (Castlereagh) had no appreiteni ° : respecting the state of the country, limber t' that it !lie people were allowed to continue to oe ( the right of petition as they had hitherto doll t ' he would be compelled to abandon the sYstew nd which he had founded his dearest hopes and pee , ations. In the event of this -Buil (icing O f ; .rind, lie should propose a chose for [Le pe a of exempting held WI horn it's. operation. le could not conceive upon what grounds the :\1 09 ,, Lord could defend his haviog extended t hi s 13;11 ( i Ireland. Hehad himself said, ire opening to House the nature of the measures w.i.e.t e 1 ) ° I since proposed, in alluding to that part ot tile BO,„ Sperch which adverts to the state of the manufl i tilting dist! icts,tion he had k [town Iteiand i n a oli tc 1( worse state, and at the saute time admittej all the symptoms which had evinced t h em seil l . 4 o ill that country had now entirely subsided. this statement mn y Irish Members had it borne testimony, amongst %si t c om was the Ri,: Honourable the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. '; Grant.) He must say that it appeared ° mint'', to the happiness of Irrlied to sec 70 Dish ;\te- li o hers swelling the ranks of the Atlntins!r4tiolt ‘l/, this occasion. Was it in vengeance to their cd li ) try that they did this ? or how did it tally the representation which had been made on 3 titer evenitsg by one of thr athat they had left homes in the hour of danger, for the po d rpose`; feuding their cause in lion House? News-had received that day from the capital of Irelaml, stated the general feeling of alarm which pet ° ,o ed the cou n try, on hearing of thi s i nte utioo the part of Ministers. It was in consetuiroc c .i, the Reform tool Manofacturing Meetings wiO k .‘ had taken place in this country that the rest' measures were introduced. It had not thought necessary, when the Habeas Corptts' i , had been suspended, in 1816, to extend its 9° , 1 pension. to Ireland and since the Union, reli c ,, that Act was suspended in Ireland, an d the 4oll, : , try put under milit ar y l aw , t h e tame r eso! lions had Dot been appli!li to G reat , iirto lif j Here, then, wet e two precedents for lut: 131 :, being exenipted front the operation of the (n e w sores now thought necessary for En g land. 1 1 was aware that Geollemen who Were cottite ct‘ pt with those parts of Grt at Britain which ‘vc' e kl a state of tranquillity, -would say, that it be unfair to apply the.oper . ation of these meato' r „ to those districts, and exempt Ireland. Io 11 %, however, he would answer, that ther e wa 4 I , l o e rural counexion bet Weer, these counties alld most remote counties in the island ; %vitt reas s'itch etinnexion existed with regard to Irelan j ii le This country was sea•gitt. The llono" 14 : 0 Gentleman concluded by appealing to all Members in that House, whether for %Vales, 0 1 . 1 be i3t country a c ( trn S tr e ; 1n t13 r::1 (i, to r i t: t)s I ; h it i' i,ot o ltin ; " t c h ‘ o li s f e j sister g presslve measures. fe ta Mr. FosTFit contended that h a d it not J- 1 , for what had fallen from the Hottour:lt)N , Gr eil i e: man who had just sat down, IV! people ot, ' t r i t e land would probably never h ave k n ovrn or 'o ex ktrove of that measure—(Citeerin , Iran ' l j t , Opposition and Ministerial lienclie.t.)—H e not mean to say that the Hon. Gcntleol'ilp, speech was calculated to give them %yarning (it * but had it not b een f or t h at , t h e y would t not ' t , ./ , been ptacticaPy acquainted with it --(Hea r All meetings in Ireland - ate held under corer,rajct th e r e for e thi s Bill could not practically n e t pt them. 11, 7 ;th respect to the tranqillitY of 1e emntry, he would observe that, 119 it had lice 1 1,1 cider! that it should not he a local Bid , t h a t wo' l4 , not hold oc au organelle for its cxrthpii""' Hey' did not know if the lion. Gentlentan was s ' . l . e l titan Ambassad ors h a d actually been sent to land trona Manchester, and were now oo fi t er per , ollbulations its !hat country ; and it wo 4 " °- 0 t lO be supposed that they wo u ld o mit any thing c ciii.itvd to excite the people to open ~C(5 O f diS og fection. He ically believed that this neto ore of a.; dtis - alde a one for Ireland a s for ell P art Great Britain. ec tlY Mr. PLUNKFT T said, he b a d b ee n 9() , ( '" r r hir' ° called t , :on by the Hon. NlCtllher 11 " -- son), that, however much be mii;llt 1"11 -1 ; • tl, a bis e, ‘ V t:,