The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-13 00:00:00

INIORNING EDITION. exhibited. If be tried those merits by the brilliancy of 'heir exploits, he could refer to the capture of the fort of Goznee; if he tried them by the general success of the ex. ;sedition, that test also, the general results of the cam. paign, were is favour of Lord Keane and his army. He (Sir t Peel) found that general usage attached peen eiary provisions to the rewards adjudged to the soldier, and he would be exceedingly sorry indeed to make the first f•T.ff:ption to that rule in the case of the exploits performed in Tadia. That would be the last exception he would be desirous of making. Those operations, which it was pro posed to the House to reward, were not carried on under - their eyes ; the places in which they were conducted were not familiar to them, and it was of the more importance therefore that they should convince those men who set such An example in distant countries, that they were not obli vious of their merit, and that they were ready to bestow upon them the same rewards as if those services were per formed under Hon. Members' eyes. He could not help taking that opportunity of expressing the regret he felt at the log, of some gallant officers whose services had been of the otmost importance. It was impossible t, give any public tcstimeny sufficiently worthy of such services. It was impossible to read the account of the sufferings they endured, and the valour they exhibited, without feelings of sympathy and admiration ; and when speaking of the exploits of the Indian army, and vsluen contemplating the be stowal of rewards upon the chief, they should also remem her the gallant soarers of men of inferior rank, by offering some solid tr bute of respect to their memory. Lewd HO WICK said, that as en the one hand he, in cemmon ssith the House, had admire! the exploits of the array usder Lard Keane—(he entirely:disreearded, SS he al reedy sta - ed, ell that had been said in the beginning of the evenirg, and he trusted that that subject was for ever dia. posed ot)—as on the one hand he thought it impossible for any reasonable man to oppose the vote now proposed, so, on the other, Hon. Members ought to prevent their minds from receivicg any natural bias to the other side, and be induced to mark their indignation against the charge, so improperly, as he took it, brought forward in these news papers—:hey should not allow their indignation at that cherge to ceuse them to give a vote which would other wise ho called for but, by good services. He w cald say that on the one bend a natural feeling of admiration at the exploits of the ermy under Lord Keane, end the reluc tance which they must all feel in that House to bring upon theme lees an invidious duty, which would be pain ful to an individu .1, were likely to influence them, he reared, in too great a degree on the present occasion. In a proposition of the present rot tore they (night not to be governed by any feelings of that nature on the one side or the other, but by considerations of the public interest—( Hear, hear)—and of whatever that intereat required. Ile believed that in all the greatest nations of necient or modern times the wisest monarchs and :tilers showed sonic pal sirnony in the distribution cf rewerds. ;'icy knew that was the case vaith respect to their own Ede doetli, who was particularly sparing in the distribution of rewards ; but the consequence of that par simeny—that resers e i using th means of excitieg ecau !ti. n and eagerness in the public service—was, that a :=light reward coming from her carried with it more real distinctien than a far greater one from other rulers; for even a simple expression o' her approbati n was deemed more honourable than a grant of a peerage from her im perious father. With regard to public rewards, they should only be given on v: ry great and high occasions. There was a natural tendency on the part of Government to fall into the opposite error, so strong was the temptation to scriei e popularity by conferring rewards of that nature. Why was it that it was now proposed to grant this great rewnra, the Peerage and a pension for three lives? be else thee. step had been salopted with too great fseility, end vri'hout that reserve which ho thought it became them to exercise in propositions of that kind. Those eerieu-s which cost the country nothing, but which, when properly distributed, produced a very good effect upon the mind of the individual, and were felt to he a very great rewaiel—those honours which cost nothing, by being too lavishly distributed, had conic to ho lightly estimated.— ( dear, hear.) Was it not a remarkable fact, that now at the end of twenty-six years of peace, when, of course, there bsd been no great military or naval services perforrnsd cluriog that time, and no great additional claims therefore acquired beyond those existing at the end of the war—was it not remarkable, he would ask, that, under these circuits starless, they found the numbers of the great Military Orders .f the Bath ea high, be believed Inghcr, than they were at the conclusion of the scar ?—( Hear, hear.) He believed that if a wiser policy had been observed in that respect, if that honour had been properly husbanded and reserved for cases of distinguished services and merit, they would have had a cheap, and, at the same time, a satisfac tory mode of rewarding such services. Every consider ation, therefore, induced him to believe that it was a wise policy not to distribute these rewards too lavishly. And if he came to apply that principle to the case which was then before the House, he was aware ?list it was very difficult to restrain considerations which might influence his own mind ; but he thought, looking risen the whole, he had better not attempt to do so, be cause he felt that it would be impossible to enter into that explanation without wire; words which might be construed possibly, though very much against his wish, into an inten tion to disparage and to diminish the value of the services of L' rd Keane and the exploits of the army. That was a question, therefore, which after all must be left to the mind of the individual, and, w icn he (Lord Howick ) lookod at the nature of the service upon which Lord !Clone was employed and at his achievements, he was bound to ssy that he did not think, upon the whole, that those services were of sufficient importance to justify them in actirg a pecuniary provision, not only for Lord Keane himself, but for his two immediate successors. ( Hear, hear.) He thought that those services would have been justly and properly rewarded by the highest honour which could have been conferred, without calling for a pres'nian of that kind. He thought also that the case Nii,lll,l have scarcely justified an appeal to the liberality of the House in favour of Lord Keane himself. But be for one had the greatest possible reluctance to granting these pensions. not only in possession to the person who had per formed the services, but in reversion to those by whom he should be succeeded ; and though in each individual case the pecuniary reward, when compared with the revenue of this great country, seemed very trifling and inconsiderable, they must remember the great tendency which cases of that kind had to accumulate and run up. They granted a pension for life, which might last for a very great series of years ; in the mean time other demands of the same kind would accumulate until at length the burden would become ex ceedingly heavy. He (Lord Howick) could net be blind to the fact that, already in the form of half-pay and pen sions, and of what was comm on ly ca ll e d d ea d we i g h t i n that Ilsuse, the burden upon the finance of the country vies so great and so heavy, that it had compelled Parlia nweit to postpone many grants for active service, which he thought were very urgently required. The weight of these demands upon them had bean in times past, and was stilt, very severely felt. In his opinion, it was the duty of the House to avoid with the greasest care the accumula tion .of charges of that description. He was perfectly aware that, when he urged these arguments, he was per forming a highly invidious duty, but it was a strong sense of the duty which he owed to those who reposed confidence in bleat which impelled him to this course. He thought that, ia watching over the pecuniary interests of the cot ntrv, they ought not to be influenced by their own feel ings of w hat it would be liberal, and what it would be a pleasure to them to do on behalf of brave and gallant men. They were bound to apportion the rewards which they gave—not upon those principles, but strictly according to what they believed to be necessary in order eo stimulate and encourage merit in the public service in general. That was the only principle upon which, in his opinion, rewards of that kind should be granted. He was well aware that be was liable to this answer—that Lord Keane having been now made a Peer it - would be extremely unjust and cruel to him if the House were to refuse a provision to him and his successors corre sponding to the rank which bad been conferred upon him. lie was not prepared to deny the force of that argument, he confessed that it was a consideration which had weighed greatly with him, and which had considerably increased the difficulty which he had felt in making up his mind to give that vote which he bad determined to ,give in reference to that question. It also made him greatly wish that in these cases when a pension was to accompany a Peerage, the custom were different from wh a t it was, and that in ' stead of granting a Peerage in the first case, and then coning down to that House to ask for a pension, the pen sion was proposed in the first instance and the Peerage were on ly g iven upon the s uccess of that proposal. (Heer, f ear.) He thought that it would-be a far better and a wiser and mere reasonable course of proceeding. But he was quite aware that it had not been the practice— he was quite aware that a different rule had hitherto been _ acted upenw h et —and there ore he did not c omplain of bad beer, done in that case. But as that rule had not been acted upon, he was bound in this caso rot to consider the nardship of refusal upon the individual in consequence of the grant of the Peerage, but to consider whether, if the whole matter were then brought before them for the first time, if the Peerage were not yet granted, he should be prepared on the merits of that case to app rove of the g rant of the pension and Peerage together. That was the groend upon which he felt himself called upon to give ah . opieion. The Crown undoubtedly possessed the right of eonferring honour according to its own discretion, and the Ministers of the Crown were responsible for the ads ice which they might give. —( ) But if it was the clear and undoubted right of the Crown to grant sieee honours, it was equally the clear and undoubted right—nay, more, the incumbent duty—of that House to exercise a free and unfettered discretion, in re gard to every proposition for an increase of the burdens of the people.—Hear, hear.) That being the case, though he greatly regretted the possibility that, if the House were to adopt the opinion which he had himself formed upon the subject, the honour which had been con ferred upon Lord Keane vrould rather be an incumbrance than a reward—greatly as he might regret that circum stance, still be was bound to keep his judgment unbiassed h it, and to deliver his vote upon those great considerations e ; rublic policy to which he had already adverted. He v. nild not add any fu ther remarks in support of the vote which he should give, except once snore to say that he pee that vote with the most unfeigned reluctance, and that it was not inconsistent with his setting a very high value indeed upon the services of Lord Keane and of the ermy It proceeded from the conviction, that if these went; were to pass by as a matter of course—if no indivi -dual would take upon himself the odious and unpleasant d a y of raising his voice against them—if Gentlem en would riot do that, they would gradually increase and me t_ tiply : they would become more and more common, the amount of service would become less and less, and, i n proportion, the higher rewards for still more distinguished services would have to be screwed up and increased, in order to maintain their relative value. It was this strong conviction, and perhaps lie ought to have taken an earlier opportunity of expressing it, but it was these considera tions which imposed upon him the duty, s from which he could not sh r i n k, of declaring hhse._ hia (c d h i e sa e p r p . r ) obation of the measure then b e f ore the House,—(Cheers. Lord JOHN RUSSELL very sorry that his Noble Friend opposite it h opinion'l t Y to fopposei6m was his Noble vote. Being of an Noble Friend, he ob twined as opportunity of stating subject. His Noble Frien g d eu a e p r spoke sentiments upon the o ais e , a a t ul le c o o g m th m o e f uci t c h d o t r b; wards made to the ancient parsimony of the P.omans. But it was to be recollected, that with respect to those times, very different rewards I were to be obtained—a Roman general returned laden with ' spoils.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend had also alluded to the rewards bestowed in the time of Elizabeth: New, even in that time Sir Francis Drake brought home with him such a quantity of silver as would have shocked the people of the present day had they seen it in the case of Sir John Keane. In those days the Crown had the power to reward with lands, privileges, and monopolies, which in these days would not be tolerated ; while even Sir Walter Raleigh had a pension of 3,000/. a-year granted him by Elizabeth—a sum much greater, considering the period, than that now proposed. Then the Crown could confer high offices, or grant large sinecures or pensions, to those who had performed any signal service to the coun try ; but all that was now abolished— the House of Com mons had very properly said that all this power should not remain in the Crown, and where money rewards were to be granted, the House of Commons should be con sulted, in order that it might have an op portunity of showing its gratitude to those per sons who had performed eminent services to wards their country. Was not the case under consider ation, one in which eminent services had been performed ? —( Cheers.) It was a case which admitted•of no doubt, and the services had been duly considered and fully ac know:edged by the House last year. Now, suppose that. the case had been reversed—even suppose that the policy of the Government had been entirely wrong, they de sired the army to cross the Indus. Suppose Sir Jibe Keane tied made object'ons respecting the d•fficultics of the Bolen pass, or cempleined of the smallness of his army, as compared with the force he was ordered against, cr that he had returned from the enterprise unsuccessful, what would have been the dangers to which the empire would have been subjected?—(Cheers.) lied such been, unfortunately, the state of cheernstanc s, the Govern ment must have come doen to the Ilouse, and asked an addition of 5,000 cr 10,000 men, which would have been necessary to restore that moral force which we would have lost, and an expenditure of probably sonic 300,000/. would have been essentially necessary, in order to secure the Indian Empire.—( Cheers ) It was, ir. fact, a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence, after all. They had followed the example set them by the cases of these officers who were promoted after the glorious termination of the war in 1815, and it seemed to him to be the reasenable course to pursue, fir it would be a mockery to offer a Peerage to any deserving general, rithout at the same time giving him the means of supporting the dignity. His Noble Friend said they ought to come to that H 1.130 fur the pension, before they granted the Peerage. That was a doctrine to which he could not Agree it was most uncoestitutienal ; and while he remained a Minister of the Cretan, he would never bring forward any resolation for a grant of money, upon the decision of which de pended the bestowal of a Peerage.—(Cacers.) Were such a doctrine to obtain, it would be a heavy blow even to democracy. What was to become of a younger brother, or a man who had risen from the raniu—of ary poor man who might have performed groat and gall4nt services to the Crown, if the prerogative of the Crown were to be so abridged? Upon all these grounds, and as it was not, and could not be called a political question, as it was to re ward eminent sent iscs rendered to the country, he trusted that the H :use would support the Resolution which was before it. Mr. HUME said that no man ought to be influenced in his vote on this occasion by the charge which bad been made against Lord Keane. lie objected t 3 the grant, on 'he ground that it was an attempt to pension the aristo cracy at the expense of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Ile did not object to the green's creating as many Peers as she liked. She might make Lords and Dukes in shoals.—( A laugh.) The more she made the less value would the possessors of titles put upon their dignities. But did the Noble Lord mean to surround her Majesty with a pauper aristocracy, supported by pensions ? The Noble Lord prop ,sed to continue the pension for two generations. Eut why not carry out his principle to the third? How was the great-grandson of Lord Keene to support the dignity of the peerage without a pension ? He could show in the Pension List mothers and daughters of pauper Peers, and did the Noble Lord think it right to increase the number?—(Hear, hear.) The question was asked, ought not her M,jesty to reward meritorious individuals ? —and allusion was made to the course which he (Mr. Hume) took when he brought the question of sinecure offices before the House. He did not depart from what he said then, that it would be better, if men merited re wards, to come to Parliament for a grant. But why not create life Peerages ?—( Hear, hear.) Those who placed so high a value upon the Peerage, ought not to degrade it by giving it to persons who were not able to maintain its dignity without taking money out of the pockets of the people. It would be more honourable to Lord Keane and to the Government, and safer to the country, to give him a Peerage for life, with sufficient to maintain his dignity so long as he lived, hut not to take his children out of the ranks of the middle classes, in which they could maintain themselves with credit by their own exertions. A second objection to the grant was the state of the finances.— ( Hear, hear.) We were not able to pay the debts we owed already.—( Cheers.) There had been in the last four years an aggregate deficiency of five millions.—(Hear, hear.) The aristocracy were always ready to pension people out of the money of the people, at the same time that they themselves avoided, by all possible means, to contribute their fair share towards bearing the burthens of the country.—( Hear, heare) Sir BUSSE Y VIVIAN, after so long intimacy with Lord Keane, hoped the House would allow him to say a i few words on the present occasion. He did not mean to reply at any length to the arguments of the Hon. Gcn tleman, bat one observaion he must make in answer to the Hon. Member's question, whether the officers of the 1 British army were stimulated by the hope of pensions ? He could inform the Hon. Gentleman that the officers were actuated by as honourable feelings as any body of men in the world. Nine-tenths of them bought their commissions at the full value of their pay, and gave their gratuitous services to their country.—(Cheers.) But it was only right that an officer, who had rendered such distinguished services as Lord Keane, should receive the honour which it was now proposed to confer on him. He would remind his Hon. Friend, that when an officer obtained these high rewards for gallant services, it stimulated and encouraged others to similar deeds of gallantry. It was unnecessary for him to go into the details of the brilliant affair of the taking of Giauznce, but it was an action that had completed the triumph of their arms in that part of India, and bad restored the throne to its rightful possessor. Mr. MUNTZ did not wish to disparage the services of Lord Keane. He had no objection to their giving him an ample and honourable reward, but he did not think that either be or the House had any right to tax those who were yet to be born for such a purpose.—( Hear, hear.) Sir H. H ARDINGE reminded the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, that he had stated, upon the Naval and Military Commission, that he wished all military appointments to be taken away fi otn the Crown, but when a fair case was made out, let Government come down with a fair propo sition and it would be supported. Now when they bad done so the Hon. Member turned round upon theta. He confessed he did not think such conduct quite consietcnt. Mr. BROTH E RTON said they ought rather to confer distinctions on those who bad saved lives, instead of con ferring them on those who had caused so great a destruc tion of human life.—(Hear, and laughter.) He would remind them of Captain Clegg, who had last year saved upwards of a hundred lives, and who had not received the slightest reward. He wished to sac the Government imi tating the example of the King of the French in that respect. Sir R. JENKINS supported the motion. GeneraIJOHNSTONE did not wish to detract from the merits of Lord Keane, but he objected to so wasteful an expenditure of the public money. Colonel SIBTHORP would not be doing his duty to his country if he did not give his decided support to the motion. Lord HO WICK explained. He thought the allusions made to him in the course of the debate wore quite incon sistent with the usages of the House. His Nook Friend the Secretary of State had not done justice to his argu ment. Ile had never intended in all cases to object to the union of Peerages and pensions as the reward of great services, for, as he had before stated, in any great cases of military services he approved of it. But it was only in ruch cases be thought it justifiable, or even customary, and he believed that even the greatest of our naval commanders, Lord Nelson, did not receive the reward of a Peerage and , a pension until so late in his brilliant career as the battle of the Nile. Colonel SALINE Y could not avoid expressing his re gret that her Majesty's Ministers had been so ill advised as to propose the continuance of this grant to the two suc cessors of Lord Keane. With regard to the conduct of Lord Keane he believed it could not be said that there was a more gallant officer in the service, but he must oppose a grant to his two successors, which he considered to be in jurious and erroneous in principle. He must again express his regret that s uc h a grant s h ou ld have bee n proposed by her Majesty ' s Minister s , an d i t was his opinion that the contrast between their professions in that House an d their conduct out of it was mela nc h o l y i n the extreme.( Ironi cal cheers from the Opposition.) The House then divided, when there appeare d For the motion ...................... j Against it ..... • ..... • 43 Maj0rity............... DUTY ON RUM. ..... 152 Sir ALEXANDER GRANT presented a petition against the equalization of the duties on East and West !eche Rum. Mr. HA WES presented a petition, signed by the pro. prietors of 150,000 acres in British India, engaged in the pro • ducton of indigo, raw silk, sugar, and tobacco, i n f a . sour of equalization of the duties on the produce of the East and West Indies. On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE the House went into Committee; Mr. BERNAL in the chair. Mr. LABOUCHERE then moved, "That it is expe. dicnt to reduce the duty payable upon rum or rum sh rub, the produce of any British pos session within the limits of the East India Company's Charter." Mr. G 0 UL BURN had certainly expected: the ques tion would have been discussed as to what effect this pro posed measure would have on the system of slavery in In dia before the question was agreed to. It had formerly been the custom, in considering eases of this nature, for the Members of the Government either to investigate the sut*et in the recesses of their offices, and to receive infor mation from all the parties interested to guide their judg ment, and to come to the Howe without any previous an nouneement of their opinion. or to come down to the Ilouse and to propose a Select Committee, before which the different parties interested would have an oppor tunity of urging whatever they might think necessary for the protection of their interests, and that Committee having considered the whole of the evidence, reported thereon to the [louse. In the present instance, however, neither of these courses had been followed. The West In ha interest had been lulled into security by the Govern , ment, who now turned round upon them. The ease was altogethera new one ; and he should be glad to hear from any gentleman connected with the Government on what gr,,urni they rested the arguments for the adoption of the course which they had pursued. He was not now merely plead ing the CMS Of that interest with which by his property he was unfortunately connected, but he was pleading the cause of every honest man who had embarked hiscapital in trade, who had a right to be told why certain measures were adopted, by which he felt his property would be involved in considerable hazard. It would be in the recollection of the House that early in the course of last Session the East India Cempary presented a petition stating va rious grievances under which they considered them selves ►abouring in respect to the differential duties levied on East Indian produce. Nothing could be fairer than that petition. It was suggested to his Hon. Friends the Members for Shrewsbury and B verley, who presented that petition, that it would be better to refer it to a Select Commitee, and that recommendation he believed came from a Member of the Government. in favour of his argument by saying that the present \Vest India trade was an otlious monopoly. It might be very well to give such names to interests we were desirous to abolish, bat ho confessed he had heard with some satisfac tion the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that if be could believe that the measure in question would be injurious to the West Indies he should be the last to propose it, and he (Mr. Goulburn) trusted he had in some degree satisfied him th it these interests would be placed in jeopardy by the course he was about to pursue. But if be had tailed to do this, he asked if the Right Hon. Gentleman was aware of the effect which the mere statement of his intentions had produced ? On the very day on which he stated his intentions, British Rum fell in the market 13 per cent., and if the Hon. Gentleman was not snare of that being the effect, he (Mr. G.) asked if he could not thence estimate what alarm the success of this measure would produce ? Those most interested in it were pretty shrewd estimators of coming events. What then were likely to be the consequences of this measure if the !Luse should ac cede to it ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had given the West India Body to understand that the Government did not intend to affect time existing duties on their produce, being Sensible of the difficulties in which the Colonies were placed; and it he (Mr. Goulburn) had succeeded in show ing. the House, what was impressed upon his own mind, that the measure could not affect East India produce, he theu'Lt he had said enough to satisfy them that they woall have acted more wisely, mo , e consistently, and he might say, more justly, if they had adopted Om resolution of the Com mittee of the House of Lords, and not hastily and at once subjected cur West India interests to sioleet change at a time when they were on the brink of ruin, but have waited till it was decided, as it would speedily be, ,hasher it wan possible for them to weather the storm nods r which they were labouring, and to corn; etc with o th er i nterests. Ile knew, when they considered the enormous population of the East Indies, and the limited population of the West Indies, some persons might be of opinion the latter were comparatively little deserving, of notice. But he never could forget that our West Indian Islands were among the earliest possessions of the British Crown—that it was through the medium of these colonies Great Britain had acquired that strength and interest, and naval power which had made her one of the gteatest powers in the world. It was through them she had been enabled to acquire this empire in India, fur which the Committee WAS non , prepared to sacrifice their interests. The time might come when, through the medium of these colonies, Great Britain might still have the means of rendering herself illustrious in war and wealthy in pence. There might still exist feelings of regard between them, if Great Britain would consent in time to cement those bends of intercourse which were reeessari. for their mutual inte rests. lie apologised to the Coat nittee for so long tree pessing on their attention. flit object had been to insist, on the part of the West Indian body, upon the oeligetions of good faith which the Government were under, and to call upon the Committee not to sanction the principle proposed to it, or to adopt a course which, if pursued, world involve our West Indian possess!ons in immediate difficult v, if not in absolute ruin.--( Hear, hear.) Mr. - LA BO LTC HERE said hi t confessed he had heard the speech just addressed to the Committee by the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Goulburn) with great satisfaction. —( Cheers.) Attaching, as he did, great importance to the motion be had brought forward, both on account of its merits, bet still more on account of the principle which it contained-_(Cheers)—he confessed he rejoiced that he had beard from a gentleman possessed of the ability, in-. formation, and lone experience of the Right Hon. Gentle man, arguments which, unless he geeatly deceived him eelf, had in them so little substance—(Cheers)—that, comparatively speaking, in even a short statement from himself, inferior as be knew himself to be to the Right Hon. Gentleman in every quality, he trusted it would be extremcle easy to convince the House that nothing had been stated which ought to interpose any obstacle to the immediate adoption of this resolution.—(Cheers. ) The Right Hon. Gentleman had begun by complaining of the conduct of the Government, because, having assented to the appointment of a Committee of both Houses, on the subject in the course of last Session, and the Committee of the House of Lords having expressed an opinion not unfavourable to the principie of this measure, hut, on the contrary, assenting to it, but recommended delay before it was adopted, the Government agreed with the House of Lords on the principle, but were Un able to agree in the recommendation that delay should take place.—' eheere.) It was n o t f or hi m t o s p ea k dis respectfully of any recommendation of either House of Parliament, still less of the recommendation of a Commit tee which consisted of Noble Lords of the greatest capa city, and which had given the subject an attentive investi gation. But this he would say, that, in his opinion, no Minis- ter who held the situation he had the honour to hold, had a right to skulk behind the Report of any Committee, either in defending himself, or bmingiug forward a proposition which he did not believe to be just and reasonable ; or, on the other hand, for refusing to bring forward a measure which he believed to be expedient and necessary for the public interest.—(Cheers.) And he would also say, with respect to these general Reports of Committees of both Houses of Parliament, that he thought them invaluable for collecting information, and suggesting general principles; but as to advising the House as to the precise mode and time for carrying any measure into effect, he believed this would be much better done by those who, having excess to official sources of information, were more likely to come to a correct conclusion as to the m mnner of carrying it into effect than any Committee could be. The Right lion. Gentleman had taunted him that two Noble Friends, who were now Mernbere of the Government, had been Members of this Committee of the House of Lords. lie (Mr. Labouchere) acknowledged this to have been the case, but he believed they had attached more importance than they ought to have done to the statement of the West Indians, as to the effect of the alteration ; but he had been able to give his Noble Friends satisfactory rea sons that these statements were incorrect, as he hoped he should be, able to give the Committee. Li truth, the question between the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself lay in a very narrow compass. The Right Hon. Gentle man had just told the House the Weat Indians had no in• defeasible right to a monopoly any more than her Majesty's colonial subjects in any other part of the world. All be Lad said was, that the pecu -1 ar circumstances in which the Nest Indies were placed called fur some important application of a prin ciple which he believed to be abstractedly just. lie (Mr. Labouchere) thought he should be able to show to the House—he did not at all deny the effect of this motion would be important, that of necessity, it must be gradual— that it could produce no sudden effect to the ruin of West Indian interests. Such statements were founded on the most exaggerated views. He trusted that the House would bear with him while he entered into such details of this dry subject as were necessary to make it intelligible. Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had re minded him of it statement he had made with regard to the present condition of time rum trade, when he had first brought the question before the House. He (Mr. Goal burn) had stated, and stated correctly, that at that mo ment these was a greater quantity of rum brought into the the United Kingdom than could be consumed in it—( Hear, hear)—and that in consequence the surplus was exported, and that though time West Indians had no minally and legally a monopoly of the English market, yet they were not able to impose upon the Eng lish market a monopoly of price. That was true ; but it was not true if they altered the duty. They did not sud denly alter the prices of rum as it' they were to let in foreign sugar. He believed it was quite true of the coarse sorts of rum and the rum of the Leeward Islands, but the rum of Jamaica was in a different situation ; its price was nearly double the Leeward Islands rum. Jamaica rum undoubtedly maintained a monopoly of price in the English market, and they anticipated that if the East Indians were allowed to bring rum here they would be able to compete with Jamaica runt and to gradually reduce its price. But was not this a desirable object ? (Cheers.) Was it not fair that the East Indians should , introduce rum and sell it ? But it was o b v i ous th at this Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE—Yes ; from myself. Mr. GOULBURN—In consequence of that recom mendation, the petitions of the East India Company, both to this and the other House of Parliament, were referred to Select Committees of Members of the respective Houses. In the other House of Parliament the Members of the Government took a direct part in that Committee. The first on the list of that Committee was the Noble Lord who presided over the Council, and who, from his position and knowledge, might be considered as fairly representing the feelings of the Government. Another Member of that Committee was the Noble Lord who held the Privy Seal, and who was also now Chancellor of the &achy of Lancaster, and he considered he was paying the Noble Lord no idle compliment when he said he considered that he possessed perhaps greats r power of forming a correct: judgment on such a sub ject than any of his colleaeues ; and that he was mare peculiarly fitted for such . an inquiry from the great diligence and ability with which he had for a long time executed the functions cf a Commissioner of Customs, which afforded him peculiar opportunities of becoming acquainted with the operation of tidihrential duties. That Committee made a Report, from which be would read an ex tract. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the Report of the Lords' Committee. The Committee stated that it would be very gratifying had they deemed themselves justified in recommending that the duty en East and West India Rum should be assimilated, but the circumstances detailed in the evidence rendered the equa lization inexpedient for the present. To thet opinion, expressed after going freely into the evidence, he (Mr. Goulburn) was prepared to give his assent. There were hundreds who, upon the faith of this declaration, had ex pended capital to an enormous amount in maintaining their establishments, in the hope that a time would come when this expenditure would return them some profit. Nor was that all. That Report wes communicated to the House of Commons, and was Mere. the Commit ce of 112,C, House appointed to consider that particular subject— a Committee including within it distinguished Mem bers of the Government.—( Hear. ) 'The Report of the House of Lords, declaring that the time had not arrived for placing the East and Wet Indies upon equal footing was before the Committee of the House of Com mons, and after going fully into the evidence, and sitting for a very considerable period of the Session, what was their ft,-port ? It was as follows :—" That this Commit tee find it impossible to conclude in the present See ion the evidence proposed to be laid before them, and teoy think they shall best perform their duty by confining them. selves to reporting to tee House fee evidence already taken." They thought it best to report the evidence with. out expressing any opinion contrary to that already before the public, and they gave an inoitnation that they should re sume the inquiry in the next Session of ['arliarnent. N )w, he put it to the House whether it would have been ex pected, after whet had'taken place, e hen the evidence had not been long enough in the hands of Members to enable them, by the exercise of ordinary diligence, to go through it, that the first measure of Government in the Session would have been entirely at variance with the decision that had been come to in the House of Lords, and acquiesced in in the Commons, with respect to the equalization of these duties ? It was not the rum of India alone which was sought to be placed upon an equal footing. No man who had attended to the evidence, or consulted those who are most conversant with the opinions which bad been excited in this country, could entertain a doubt that rum was not the only article which was to be affected by the proposed alteration. No man could suppose that it was intended to limit it to the spirit which was produced from the refuse of the sugar-cane. The measure would extend a great deal further in its immediate operation than the state merits and reasoning of the Hon. Gentleman who proposed it would seem to intimate. What necessity, he would ask, was there for deviating from what had been recommended by the House of Lords ? Could they not render the altera tion proposed gradual—could it not be introduced by degrees, so that the fall in the price of commodities, the produce of the West Indies that would necesiarily result from the changes proposed, would not be attended with such sudden foss as it would otherwise be ? They were not in that question called on, as regarded the East Indies, to provide fur a greatly suffering people. There was no representation in the documents to which he referred, that the interest there engaged in the manufacture of rum or the growth of sugar, was suffering any great depression. They were not called on to provide for the security of a large capital which, on the faith of the country, was invested in a peculiar trade there. They were not called on to introduce any prohibition which would have the effect of excluding from existing advantages those who enjoyed them. They were not called on to remove any prohibition fatal to the existence of any branch of internal or external commerce. Quite the contrary. The Com mittee of the:Houso of Lords, and Ministers, told them that it was quite the contrary—that the effect of postponement in the present instance was only to cause for a moment a new source of profit. The Hon. Gentleman here referred to portions of the evidence given before a Committee of the House by rum-producers, which were favourable to the views which be wished to impress on the House, and col tinued to observe that so far was the trade in sugar, the produce of the West Indies, from increasing, that the very contrary was the case. Hon. Members knots from documents laid on the table, and that were in the bands of every man, that the produce of those colonies had hitherto been decreasing. They knew also—at least they might easily calculate—what would be the effect on the civilization and improvement of those colonies if, by a sudden blow, they should cause to be withdrawn the capital now employed in paying the labourers on the several estates. They should remember that the state of society there had within the last few years undergone an entire revolution. The people were not in slavery now as hitherto, and it should be recollected that that very state of slavery un doubtedly increased the production there beyond what the hands employed upon it could reasonably induce Hon. Members to calculate upon. He sincerely rejoiced that that state of slavery had been changed for that of freedom. He never ventured to measure the advantages obtained by individuals against the permanent advantages obtained by the whole body of the people by the enjoyment of freedom. He was ever ready to concur in the measures of Parlia ment, either 'for improving the condition of the slaves, or subsequently conferring freedom ; upon them nor did he, though: suffering in co.nmon with others from the conse quences of that measure, regret its being carried into ope ration. When those measures were first enacted, those who took a real interest in the welfare of the coloni s, and had estates there, betook themselves, in the interval of the apprenticeship, to expend the money they received from Government, in endeavouring to make the system of free dom work well when it would have come to pass. He could instance many persons who having no debts or in cumbrances on their own estates, bad expended the whole of their capital in making preparations on their estates for the abolition of slavery, and for gradually introducing the negroes to freedom. Those individuals who thus stood by the colonies, were plunged }nip ; . difficulties which it was impossible for those who bird tiKperienced them to con ceive. He spoke not onliwriOnOill' own experience, but from that of others. The sudden burst of freedom made every slave wild with joy. It became almost impossible to get airy of them to work, and in consequence the crops were frequently left uncollected. Hon. Gentlemen might not be aware of the disastrous consequences of leaving the flocks uncollected, but they were such as would pre vent the proprietors of estates from obtaining the least return or profit from their properties for a series of years afterwards. Such having been the difficulties in which the holders of estates in those colonies, but espe cially in the island of Jamaica, were plunged by the change which had taken place by the decision of Parlia ment, and employed as they had been since that period, in endeavouring to recover the ground which from that cir. eumstance they bad lost, by continued expenditure on their properties, in the hope of obtaining a return, all he was anxious to ask of the House—and it was no more than what had been recommended by a Committee of the House of Lords—was that they should not at that moment, when capital was being expended, when there had not elapsed time sufficient to allow of such a re-establishment of pro perty, as to admit of the slightest return of any part of the capital expended—all he asked of the House was to adopt the well considered resolution of the House of Lords, and not visit those colonies, so suffering and so injured; with the ruinous consequences in which the equaliza tion of duties would irretrievably involve them. Taking the question as merely one of duty, the difference of the distinctive duties on East and could not be done at once. It wouldi-equiresr;; time to improve th e q uality of Indi an rum , an d w h en he said he did not object to do this, he would remind the House that the price of rum was higher now in England than at any time during the last twenty-five years. He said, therefore, that the British consumer ought not to b . e lost sight of in a quest i on o f t hi s sort . I t wou ld b e an inducement to introduce finer as well as coarse sugar. He thought lie had sufficiently shown the House that he should not inflict a sudden blow en the West Indian interests, or do anything to produce an effect which had been described in such exaggerated language as that of pl a ci ng th e W est Indies in a state of hopeless and irretrievable ruin. He now begged the attention of the Hou s e to w h a t a pp ea r e d to him to be an important branch of the subject, namely, the effect the present system of dis couragement to i m p or t ing East Indian rroduce had on the produce and supply of sugar to this country. He trusted the House would con sider the double operation of the present system. The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the evidence before the Committee, but individuals of the highest respecta iiiity, Mr. Rogers and others, who had embarked large capital in the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies, stated that they found they could no longer find a market for mo lasses unless encouragement were given them to make it into rum, which proved a serious check to the cultivation of sugar. The testimony of Mr Symonds was to the same effset. He (Mr. Labouchere) believed this mono poly restricted the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies, and that the present system of rum duties operated as a serious discouragement to their efforts. He would now turn to the West Indies, and what was the effect produced by these duties there. There was remarkable evidence given by the West Indians themselves. He alluded to a witness whem the Right Hon. Gentleman bad quoted, named Green, who said, " The consequence of the h'gli price of rum in the West ladies, is to divert the ma. nufacture of the produce of the sugar cane from the manufacture of sugar to the manufacture of rum." The proportion was now entirely reversed, and more rum came, and less sugar.—( Mr. Goulbern cheered.) The Right Honourable Gentleman cheered, implying that it was advantageous to the West Indies. But what was its effect here?—(Cheers.) Was it not shown that m this syste checks the production of sugar in the West Indies, by giving the merchant encouragement to send rum instead o f sugar ; an d t h at i n the East Indies it also discouraged the manufacture of sugar, and dur isesbed the supply ? lie must say when these were the r frects—when this was the injuri ous opera ti on o f these duties in :be East and West I idles, he was convinced this inequality was a gross injustice—(Cheers)—ene which rankled in the minds of the Indian commun i t y, a ni which it was their duty to remove. On the other hand, being convinced [het 'liege were no real gr , ut:ds for saying that the removal of this sssilll would be tatal to tilt' prop. my of the West Indies, ne felt, if he had ad; pted a different course, he should have desersed his duty, and broken his faith to those gen tlemen connected with the East ladies whom he promised, not only that these matters should be referred to a Com mittee, but that he would cons id e r their Report , and if convinced that any part of their demand was founded in justice, would lose no time in applying a remedy • 1 1. CVO; at which they cumplain..'i —I fle 3 r: !war.) tt ise gloss,, couch .origcr. lie tv.:s almost ashamed of urging this question again, after it had been IQ much narrowed._( Hear, hear.) When he looked West India products of sugar amounted, as stated in evidence given before the House, and which they had on the table, to 12 per cent. and by means of the measure of emancipation and its consequences, the price of labour had been so raised, that the amount of duty imposed on the produce of the West Indies wsis in effect more than double that sum. The Right Hon. Gentleman next proceeded to show that the relative conditions of the cultivators of the soil in the West and East Indies, were materially different, aad that the producers in the East had advantages in that respect which the West Indian planter did not possess. In the West Indies the labourer might work one day and idle the next, or go to any portion of the colony, and perhaps never be beard of again. That was not the case in the East Indies ; there was a coonection arising from the cir cumstances of society in that country, which bound the whc labourer iihho o more or less to ,the cultivation of the property on happened to reside, and that gave a facility of obtainin g l a b our which it was not possible to possess in the West Indies, and that circumstance alone, he contended, ought to induce Hon. Members to take a favourable view of the present condition of the West Indies, and not to press the present measure. The grower of sugar in the East Indies had other advantages, too, that were inaccessible to the owners of estat es i n t h e W est I n di es . The growers of . sugar in the East Italics had a market of erne hundred Imillions of people in which to di,pose of their produce. ' The sugar cf the E ast I nd i es travel l ed i nto the interior o f Asia, and into those extensive tracts to which the nu;sian merchants trafficked, and from that enormous market of one hundred millions of people the \Vett Indian produeer was more effectually excluded than by any syst em of prohibi tory duties that could be established. He believed the equalization of duties was essential to the prosperity East Indies. He would readily waive, as far as viras euu s istent with the safety of our other possessions, all claims on the part of the body on whose be half he was speaking. But when he saw that th e y h a d unlimited means of extend:ng their produce, short of cx teading the whole of it into this country, he could not per suade himself, after the most candid attention he could give !o suijeet, that by , z there c,,uld be any dvgrei.: of p e ril:anent ur crc,, teityth day injury to their interests. He knew . the RightGFn , demo (Mr. Labouchere) had tried to raise something THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDNY, FEBRUARY 13, 1841. at the situation of India, and remembered that they dretv three millions and a half annually for the cxpenccs of the Government, for which they could give no return, unless it was by means of the proposed meetnre—( Hear, hear) — when he recollected that we had not, he admitted, by ihe effect of our laws, though they had too often been unjust, but by the effect of our machinery, and by the natural advantage, we poeseesed, utterly devroyed her manufac tures; when he recollected that it had been stated by one of the witnesses, that a town which was formerly conside cd the Manchester of India had dwindled down to 30,000 inhabitants, and the jungle and malaria were gaining upon its streets, and there were numerous CIZIFSCS of persons in .that country who, from the prejudices of caste, found it so difficult to obtain employment, that they had been reduced to the lowest state of misery and distress; when he con sidered alfthese things, he thought he had a right to ask the House to accede to the measure which was then under their attention. He would not weary the House with the details of this question, but really there were some facts so remarkable that he could not help referring to them. He held in his hand a return of the quentjties of cottons and muslins of British manufacture which had been exported in the last few yeses, and really the increase was most remarkable. The Hon. Gentleman the❑ pso ceeded to give some returns, showing an is:et - ease from 1814 in the exportation of mveling and cottons. I❑ 1825 the value of yarn sent from England was 16,000/ ; in 1837 it amounted to 602,0001 Ali the evidence which they had received showed that the demand en th- part of India for our manufactures was only limited by our own restrictions. He would not, as he might do, appeal to the feelings, the generosity, and the justice of that blouse; but he would ask those who represented British interests and British manufactures whether they would not be consulting their owii interests by giving encouragement to Indian produce ? —([Tear, hear.) He did not know that, until he heard some further arguments upon the subject, he needed trouYe the House at any greater length. He confessed him - self rejoiced that the lion. Gentleman did not use argu ments which he bad seen calcuhtted in certain papers ; he rejoiced that the Right Hon. Gentleman, though he had fairly stated his views as a West Indian, and bis opinion that the measure should not be adapted on account of the peculiar situation of the West Indies, did not at tempt an unworthy appeal—and he must say it was an appeal as foolish as it was unworthy—to the vague fears of the agricultural interest.---( Hear, hear.) He would have blushed if, en that occasion, he had seen a gen tleman of England come forward, with a protection really at that moment upon British spirit, as compared with co lonial spirit, greater by 181. a gallon. He should have blushed if lie had seen an English genlernan— ."ile. H. GOULBURN—In England? Mr. LAB 0 UCH 14] NE —The diff eronee would be still greater in Ireland and Scotland. 11e imagined no one would suppose that there was the slightest danger in these two countries.--( Hear, bear.) But he really hoped that that argument would not be used, for it ivould not boa cre ditable argument to say that, with this enormous protection, they were af:ai 1 that s...lch was the fc r:ility of India that they were afraid some portions of British spirits might by possibility he displaced by spirits conin g from India, if this 13.11 pased. Ile expected to have had to deal more at large with that argurnerit, but as it had not been advanced by the Hen. Gentleman, he would riot trouble the House with any observations upon it. He would now state, in conclusion, that attaching, as he did, gre.t importance to this question on its own merits, he attached much greater importance to it on accaunt of the principle which it in volved. He was quite sure that in a country like this, possessing a widely-extended colonial empire, there was but one safe as well as rational principle, Lamely, to treat with equal favour and justice, every portion of that empire. —( Hear, hear.) lie therefore hoped that he should re ceive the support of the House upon that occasion. He would not trouble the House any further than to thank them for the indulgence which they had shown him. Mr. ENVAR.T said that the Right Hon. GAitleman opposite, in opposing this measure, had first based his opposition upon the Report of the House of Lords. Upon that he had been fully met by his lion. Friend. He had then taken refuge in the proceedings of the Committee of the House of Commons. That Committee, it was said, made no Report. But why had they not done so? Not because they were not convinced by the arguments in fa vour of the equalization of duty, but because the Commit tee was delayed throughout the whole of its proceedings by the Right Hon. a:ntlernan the Member for the Mauritius, whom be saw opposite to him.—( Laughter. The Hon. Member was understot'd to refer to Mr. Irving.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the East Indian rum found a ready market. Upon that point he would refer to the evidence taken before the Committee. Mr. Trevillian stated that there was no market for East Indian rum, when it could be sold at a profit, except in the Eng lish market. Mr. Rogers, who was himself the owner of a large factory in the interior of Lelia, said, that under the present system there was no effective competition between East and West India rum. He confessed be should have been better pleased if her Majesty's Government had pro posed a more comprehensive measure. He thought they were bound to encourage the importation of the national productions of India—sugar, rum, cotton, tobacco, indigo, and other articles. As they had grimed the reduction of the sugar duties it followed as a matter of course that the equalization of the rum duties should be conceded also. It should be remembered that at the conclusion of 1839, the stock of sugar was calculated at 40,000 tons, and that at the end of 1840 it was 200,000. In 1835 tit:. consumption was 200,000 tons, whilst in 1840 it was only 165,000. The people of England were thus deprived of 35,000 tons,. although the population was increasing.— Rum was not the only article upon which the duty was unequal. There was a duty of 9d. upon Mysore coffee, instead of the colonial duty of 6d.. This was a great in justice to the people of India. Mysore vial 'virtually a British possession; it was one of those countries which came under the subsidiary system, and ought not therefore to be treated with such manifest injustice. There were at this moment many . prospects of advantages to the Bri tish capitalist in India. In almost alt parts of India, the transit duties bad been abolished. Though they still existed to a certain extent in Madras, yet they were gra dually disappearing • and this would be a great relief to commerce and manufactures, and greatly encourage capi talists in their undertakings. In the last Session of Par liament he (Mr. Ewart) moved for returns of the existing settlements in India. It was gratifying to know that they were constantly on the increase. He hyped the time would arrive when the settlements of India would be like the German Confederation, which united all the parts of that extensive empire, bound together by a community of interests. They would never be able to call forth its resources whilst it remained in detached portions; its resources would be called out when it formed one vast and comprehensive whole, and he trusted that the small beginning, for small it was, which was then about to be made, would be finally consummated in a far more comprehensive system, and that, commencing with the reduction of duties, they would end in the con solidation and assimilation of them throughout the whole continent of India. Mr. COL QUHOUN looked upon the proposed mea sure as ono which would ultimately tend to the benefit of our West Indian as well as our East Indian colonies. The present state of things, on the cootrary, was injurious to both colonies. He felt that every protection should now be abolished. For the sake of the West Indian interest itself, he desired that there should be introduced into the markets of this country such an amount of sugar from the East Indies its would serve as a safety-valve to the Go vernment against the strong pressure which demanded a reduction on the sugar duties; and he believed that the increased consumption which would follow would be bene ficial to the East Indies, and even to the West Indies themselves. If he looked to the manufacturing interests of the country also, he felt that the reductim was neces sary. Such a measure would bind the East Indies to this country by the strongest tic th it could unite them, an identity of interests. How could they otherwise preserve that mighty empire which contributed so much to the great ness of this country? The Russian and the British em pires in the East were now fast approaching each other, mad would soon, perhaps, have to contend for the mastery there, while it would soon perhaps be a question with a large portion of the inhabitants of Asia to which they should attach themselves ; and, under these cir cumstances, was it nut of the utmost importance to convince the people of the Feist, that while the principles ut Russia were those of commercial monopoly and self. interest, the policy of Great Britain, on the contrary, would be large, liberal, and generous—( Hear, hear)—and that while they introduced into the last the manufactures of England, as it was the interest of both people, they would throw open, on the other hand, to the produce of the East the pole of this country. Such a course mould riot only advance the cause of eiviliza,iou, but would pro mote the best interests of this country. Oa these grounds he would support the motion of the Right Hon. Gentle man ; and he did think that, whatever might be said as to the Right Hon. Gentleman having broken faith with the West Indies, after the Report that had been published, and the evidence taken, the Government were right in the course they had followed.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HAWES said he believed that an undue protection had hitherto been given to the West Indies, and the result was, that the inhabitants of those colonies had neglected the resources which they possessed. They were, therefore, obliged to have constant recourse to the assistance of this country. He believed that if the mono poly had been long since abolished, they would he free from the didieulties which never failed to press upon them. He was confirmed in that opinion when he saw the trade of the East Indies prosper under a contrary system. That increasing prosperity had undoubtedly taken place. In the year 1786, for instance, he found that the East Indies exported to the value of 57,000/. of indigo; in the year 1809, to the value of 1,105,0001. ; in the year 1830, to the value of 2,000,000/., and in the year 1840, the value of the indigo they exported amounted to 2,400,0001. Besides, the high price of sugar was to be considered in the effect it would have on the interests of the public. Under the monopoly and the high price, there was a decline in the consumption, which led to a diminution in the revenue ; and the consequence of that diminution would be that fresh taxation should be imposed upon the people. He did not think, however, that any thing could justify an increase of taxation which nould be caused by a monopoly. lie wished ro call the attention of the House to the rela tion between high prices and a diminished consumption. lie would take for that purpose the concluding months of the years 1839 and 1840, In July 1839, the consumption was 10 000 tons, and in July 1640 it was 9,200 tons, showing a deficiency of nearly 1,000 ; the corresponding prices were 40s. in the one case, and 555. in the other. Ia August 1839, the consumption was 12,200 tons, and in August 1840, it was 7 , 0 00, s h ow i ng a deficiency of more than 5,000; the c orrespon di ng pr i ces were 40 s. an d 57 5 . InSeptemb e r 1830, the consumption was 0,600 tons, and in September 1840, it was 7,200, showing a deficiency of 2,400; the corresponding prices were 38s. and 51s. In November 1839, the consumption was 9,900 tons, and in November 1840, it was 5,800, showing a diminution of more than 4,000; the corresponding prices were 38s.and 575. In December 1839 the consumption was 8 300 tons, and in 1840 it was 5,700, showing a deficiency of 1,600; the corresponding prices were 375. and 535. It was clear from t h at t i,• .I, c diminution of eerenrription arose from the iecreaseU p ice. He had last year piesi.ni,ed from the metropolis complaining of the monopoly, and gating that the high prices which it caused led to adulto. MORNING EDITION*. ration of the article, as well as to a falling off in the reve nue dad an increase of taxation: In these statements be entirely concurred. 14e did not behave that the people of this country would be satisfied with the imposition of fresh taxes while the revenue of the country might be in creased by an honest course of commercial policy.— ( Hear, hear.) However they might be met by the argu ment as to how particular interests might be affected, he believed that the general prosperity of the country would be most promoted by a strict adhere nee to the doctrines of free trade.—(Cheers ) With regard to the argument of the Right Honourable Gentleman, that he had been taken by surprise, be would refer him to the debates which had taken place fifteen years since. Ia 1825, Mr. Hus kis,on, in bringing in the Mauritius Bill, bad stated that where ter the consumption of sugar in this country should equal the production of the West laelica, and verge on exceeding it, that there then would be no legitimate excuse for 'maintaining the m )nopoiy, Ia 1838 the then Chan . cellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Spring Rice, on introducing a measure for the equaYzation of the sugar duties, fold quoted the Noble bed the Member for North Lancashire, and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tainwortb to the same effect. Hew then could the West India interest complain of surprise ? Vear after year for the last fifteen years they hail been warned that they were not to look to the continuance of the =naively, ( Hear, hear.) Would the Right Hon. Gentleman fix a period at ethic's it would be mere convenient for the West India interest that the change should take place then at present?—(Curers.) He would do no such thing, let the protection and the monopoly be continued and the convenient time would never come,—( Cheers. ) He felt obreeed to the House for the attention with which they had heard him, and should not have trespassed on them at such great length, had he not felt it. his duty, representing es he did a large constituency, to impress iipen the House how important it was for the interests of the community that there should be a free competition.—(Cheers.) Sir ALEXANDER GRANT had not yet heard of any method by which it could be ascertained that the rum imported from India was really the produce of the auger. cane. With regard to the certificate of the re venue officer in India, on which the Right Hon. Gen:le man stated he coulJ rely as confidently as on the certifi cate of a revenue officer in this country, it should be re collected that the revenue officers in this country were pp pointed by the Government, and had no interest except to do their duty to their employers. Now, in the East ladies, they were appointed by the Company ; and it was their direct interest to procure the exportation of spirits to this country. There was a great difference between the two cases. He would not go beak to the times of 1792, or to . any times previous to Emanelpation, in ar guing this question on behalf of the West India interests. It should bc recollected el - let-by < the great measure of Emancipation the West ladice had / been placed in a novel situation. He did not iinaMgm „that great measure, but it found himself and others in possession of certain rights, with which it was found impossible to deal without a grant of tuD3ey. He was not going to deny that the grant of twenty millions was en enormous sum, but when it was talked of as compensation, it was far from placing them in the position which they had occupied,, and, continued the Hon. Gentleman, I appeal to you, Mr. Bomal, whether such is not the case."—( Loud laugh ter.) His Right Hon. Friend had told them that what he had received as compensation he had not put into his own pocket, but he had laid it out on the improvement of his estate, and, said the Hon. Baronet," Mr. Bernal, I appeal to you, Sir, referring to the income you received before that period, and the income you have received ever since, whether you consider yourself compensated.—(Shouts of laughter mingled with cries of " Question, question," " Di vide, divide.") He himself had not received any be nefit. The reduction in the production of bis es tates had been great, and be bad to pay high wage=, which be had not had to pay before, and yet the production had diminished materially.-- ( Hear, hear.) Perhaps it might be said he was furrishing an argument against himself, and in favour of increasing the sugar cultivation in the East Indies. No such thing. In former times the production of the West Indies had been more than sufficient for the consumption of England ; but new the stimulus to labour in the %Vest Indies was so small, that the supply of labour was not sufficient for the cultivation. When the supply of labour should be in. creased, he had no doubt but the supply would be again fully equal to the demands of England. The estates were new cultivated at an actual loss ; and, if this state of things continued, they must eventually go out of cultivation— ( Loud cries of " Divide, divide.") With regard to the price • of sugar, it should be recollected that the war duty of 255. was still continued, and that that duty had been still further increased last Session. He would sug gest to the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade a verbal alteration in the resolution, which would do away with the necessity of dividing—it was that the duty should be gradually reduced. Sir S. LUSH[NGTON said that there were three great interests to be considered in discualing this question ; first, the interests of the consumers in this country— ( Cheers) —secondly, the just claims of the inhabitants of our extensive dominions in the East Indies—( Hear, hear)—and, thirdly, the state and position of those holding property in the West Indies. He would begin by observ ing that he heartily concurred in the general principles laid down by his Right Hon. Friend. Neither Great Britain nor any other country had any right to make con quests of exten eve dominions, and keep them in a state of dependence, if those dominions were governed on any other principles than for the benefit and happiness of the people inhabiting t bem.—( Loud cheers.) He had looked at the history ondia with sortow, and sometimes with disgust, however much ho might admire the brilliant ex ploits which our arms had frequently achieved in that country. There were many scenes in the history of our connection with that country over which he would wish to cast a shade; but this only rendered it a more imperative duty on the House and the country to govern India for the benefit of the inhabitants. How that duty had been discharged no man coulddoubt, who looked to the records of the last few years, more particularly to the labours of die Committee of 1835. It was their duty now to do every thing in their power to promote the prosperity of that unfortunate country, and to redress those wrongs and that injustice which had heretofore been inflicted on it. Entertaining , those views, it was impossible that he should not be prepared to offer every encouragement to the inhabitants of Hindostan.—(Hear, hear. ) Looking again to the condition of the consumers of sugar in this country, there could be no doubt that the diminished im portation of that article had operated on them with the utmost severity.—(Hear, hear.) There was, however, a fear that it would be attempted to introduce into this country the produce of slave labour. His Hon. Friend below him had said that free labour could compete successfully with slavery. Now he (Sir S. L.) admitted that under equal circumstances it could do so. But he world say that the British Colonies could not contend with Cuba and Brazil, where every day rich soils were being brought for the first time into cultivation, and thero was a continual and uninterrupted importation of slaves.—( Hear, hear.) This led him to consider the case of the West Indies. The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir A. Grant) had said that the Colonies were in a state of transition, and that time ought to be allowed them to recover.—(Hear.) Now he thought that argument would be overwhelming, if it had the force in the present case which the Hon. Gentleman alleged. It was his firm opinion that this measure coWd not affect their interests. He remembered to have heard Mr. Huskissun state on several occasions that the East Indies could never compete with the West in the production of sugar, and it was very well known that the great increase which had taken place lately in the exportation was occasioned, not by an increase of produc tion, but at the expense of the native consumers, in conse quence of the advance of price in Eurepe.—(Hear, hear.) In considering the appeal of the Hon. .Member for Cam bridge, who had stated his own case so pathetically, let them look to the present state of Jamaica—let them bear in mind that the inferiority of that island to the other colonies less fa vourably circumstanced in all other respects, was owing to want of judgment on the part 4if the Jamaicans themselves. Antigua, with a worn-out soil, had gone on improving. Bar badoes, which was scarcely better off in that respect, was rising to prosperity. He could not doubt, therefore, that the great island of Jamaica would also surmount its difficulties.— (Hoar, hear.) He would not vote for any measure which did not fully provide against the introduction of any slave-grown produce whatever.—(Hear, hear.) If such a provision was not secured the West Indies would have good right to complain —( Hear)—and the people of England would have a right to complain, that after expending twenty millions for the suppres sion of slavery, they were to be again drawn into the encourage ment of it.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask the House to sup port him at a future stage of the Bill in the introduction of a clause to protect this country from the introduction of slave produce.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.") Lord SANDON, who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery, said lie had listened with great attention and interest to the discussion. He thought there was one party whose interest ought to be considered, and who had not been attended to in the debate—not the West India proprietors, but that popula tion of 800,000 lubourers who were now undergoing a great ex periment. He thought it desirable that the capitalists holding property in those colonies should be encouraged to carry that experiment to a successful result. To gratify feelings of our own, we had prevented them from introducing free labourers from other parts of the world, and we ought not to deprive them altogether of our assistance.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that they should have a little time before they were exposed to this new competition, and he , should therefore suggest that the law should not come into operation for two' yeari.—( Hear.) Mr. LABOUCHERE thought that it was not at all ad visable to accede to the proposition of the Noble Lord, who, he believed, spoke rather from the suggestions of the West India proprietors than from his own opinions It was, how ever, a matter of necessity that considerable time should elapse before the Bill came into operation. The rum now under bond would of course not be admitted under this Bill—( Hear) —and as no rum would be admitted without the certificate of identity, which must come from India, the Bill could not come at ell into practieal effect under six months, nor to any extent for several months more.—(Hear, hear.) No deiay in the passing of the measure was necessary, and lie should oppose any amendment having that object.—(Hear, and " Divide.") Mr. HOGG rose amidst loud cries of "Divide." He was only anxious to ask whether there existed any intention to adopt the clause of the Right Hon. Gentleman? He could not allow the observations of the Right Hou. Gentleman to go forth to the public without stating that there was not one pound of sugar made in India by slave labour. He was quite certain that the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman would not satisfy himself—how could they expect to put down slavery by a discriminating duty of 6s. per:gallon ? Sir CHARLES GREY then rose, and was saluted by loud cries of " oh !" and " Divide," Which for a time drowned his voice. We understood him to say that the clause proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets would be quite fallacious; suppose 'it was agreed to, where and by whom was the discovery to be made that certain rums were made from sugars, the produce of free or slave la bour ? It was an impracticable scheme. He had now been eight years from India, but he could state that when he was there, there was an anxious desire on the part of the Govern.. nient to put an end to all slave labour, and that they would carry out these plans at the earliest moment was his firm belief. Sir R. PEEL then rose, and was met with cries of "Divide ; " he said it was all very well to cry " Divide," but it was to b e borre in mind that the question was a very important one, and and that, in fact, that single debate would decide it. He was anxious to state the impression which had been made on his mind by reading the evidence upon the subject, and he cam e to its cousideration with a mind totally unbiassed; he was con nected neither with the East nor the West Indies, and if he had any predilection at all it was in favour of the consumer.— ( Hear, hear.) He felt bound to say that many of the argu ments which had been advanced against the equalization of the duties had made no impression on his mind ; but neither could he admit that the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Dr. Lushington) had any weight; he could not admit that slavery exiAik: in inidia tc, taco l , d,r 3e. a, to them to postpone the equalization of the duties.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable. Member might attempt to destroy slavery in the present Session, he (Sir U. Peel) was afraid that it was so IMO. On"'lC' with caste that he would tind it a much more difficult p ,, tier than be seemed to expect, and if they were to postpone tin equalization of the duties until that desirable end had bee* effected, they would postpone it to a period that vvould be west acceptable to the most ardent friend of the West India i s te t rests.—(Hear, hear.) Ile thought , howeve r, that the We India interests had not had due notice of the change which vt. , now proposed—he thought they ought to have had some inti mation from the Government during the last Session of their intention to make the proposed alteration ; and even now be thought that they ought to commence the reduction inune diately—say that they should reduce the duty 2s. during the present year, 2s. more the next year, and proviee that at the end of the third year the duties should wholly assimilated.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That would be doing justice to all parties—they would thereby recognisethr i principle of equality, and at the same time afford the Westlwt dian interest full notice of the intentions of the Legislatureif That was due to that interest. A vast and most important experiment was now going oa in the West Indiett, and it was very important that it should be meddled with as little as o sible ; it was most important that it should be •successfef ,. order to deprive the slave-holding countries, Fiance and Ame rica, of the opportunity of appealing to our nonS-suecess in fa vour of their system of slavery.—(Hear, heir.) He thought tlte 1,1,n he proposed would be the most prudent cour se ; and i ntiy Gentleman moved accordingly, he would feel bound to vtle with him, but he did not think that his duty compelled to disturb the unanimity of the House by making the pro' position. Li answer to a question from Lcrd SANDON, Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government did not ill" terfele with any emigration from India to the West In dio. where the parties paid their own passage ; but the Governmen t did not think it would Le fair to raise a general tax for sod' a purl ose. The resolution was then put from the Chair and agree° without a division. The House then resumed. On the motion that the House do resolve itself into a Cool, of Ways and Means, Mr. GOULBURN complained that the usual precedents had not been folio Ned in going into Committee of Supply, inasmuch as no substantive vote had been taken, and therefore th e y could not go into a Committee of Ways and Me es till that be dune. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they had no means of taking any thins Lut a nominal vote until the° went into tlie'EAimates. The vote was generally taken on ac count of the Estimates, Lut if the House thought there was eY.. thing unconstitutional in the proceeding, he .could adopt any other the HOuse might suggest. It might be placed in the sam e category as Jelin' Doe and Richard Roe.—(Laughter. ) t Sir R. PEEL thought the explanation given by the !UV, Hon. Gentlemart'*as so very unsatisfactory, that lie though'e it would be ititiOble - to postpone it for a few nights if ther was halitibli6'jitconvenience resulting from it. 'lMllRl;ES'Shggested thu propriety of postponing the vote, so thii' l iti)titeinquiries might be made on the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no ob jection to do so RAILWAYS. Mr. LABOUCHERE moved the second reading of the 141- ways Bill. • Mr. HAWES hoped some postponement would take Pla ce in order that thf parties interested should have time to 0" Sider its provislow. Mr. LA OUCHERE believed there was no objection t° 3 the principle of the Bill, and he had no objection to p estPe l the next stage, the Committee, for a fortnight , in order tit° its details might be considered. hatl Colonel SIBTHORP also wished for some delay, an b e , - several amendments to propose in the Committee. Ile ie '- great objection to all gambling speculations of the kind. Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would not ask the House 0 go into Committee on the Bill until next Friday week. • Sir R. PEEL would not oppose the second reading of the Bill, Travelling by railway was not attended with so molll i danger as sonic seemed to think. By the railroads vdtc which he was concerned—the London and Birmingham, an the Grand Junction—an enormous quantity of traffic was car lied on, and yet but few accidents occurred on these lines. Look to the thousands of passengers who passed between th e extreme points of these lines, and how few the accidents, COn parati.:ely speaking. After all, railway travellinas the lot secure, as it certainly was the most rapid mode. BeH did not e.` - ct to the second reading of the Bill, and he thought that t! e e great security of the public would be in the sense which t h at Companies would have of its being their interest to effect ° security. He hoped the Right Ifon. Gentleman would be ex abled to carry his regulations. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he would endeavouTor, carry his Bill by the support of the Railway CenlPenies hard rectors. In illustration of that he might say that w.-tli re r T g le to tie powers of prosecution given to the Board of •- under the circumstances mentioned in the Bill of last Ye•- 1 4 there had been no occasion at any time 'o bring those into operation. In every instance which called fur a re hole strance with the Companies, the Directors complied with tioeo, remonstrances, and it had not been necessary in a single stance to have recourse to those powers. of Colonel SIBTHORP would suggest to the Chancellor t, ;cereal° of duty - railwa and also adeP the Exhuer an increase .tuty n ./tway, ins some means eq eans of protection for an o oppressed s and unforfuna 6 class of persons, the post-masters. The Bill was then ordered to be read a second tilde' apd committed on next Friday week. D ela. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS . (ENGLAND) m Abe Lord MOUPETH, in the absence of the Noble Lo rd s e Secretary for Colonies, moved the postponement of the conicreading of the Bill fur the Registration of Vo ters (Snr land) to Friday next. REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) BI plug Lord MORPETH announced his intention o f post:l,2a the second reading of the Registration of Voters (Ireland) P" from Friday next (the day fixed) to the Monday followid*. e he The Court of Exchequer ( Ireland) Bill , an d the .111 CompoFitions (Ireland) Bill went through Committee. B"Ito Mr. E. J. STANLEY moved for leave to br i ng M a $ c o ns titute extra-parochial parts of the forest of D ean id % district for the relief of the poor; and to enable her Majestf A , endow a Church at Cinderford, in the said district.--Grary,ri, Mr. FOX MAULE bro via in the County Courts .131'd which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a secblenh time on next Friday week. Also the Bankruptcy BM , o n was read a first time, and ordered to be read a s econd titne the same day. d thtt The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, arl, House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock td-P°"no next, NEWS FROM THE LEVANT' MARMORICE BAY, HER MAJESTY'S SHIP BRITANNIA, JA I4. The The Megmra sails to-morrow morning for Malta. to Britannhay yesterday Howe, and Castor arrived off the ent ra l c , e at , this morning, but having got becalmrb-sir side, were saccessively towed in by the Hydra, Ilb le hipa R. Stopfuru sent out for that purpose. All the foe/ mentioned in your last are here still, except the Benhafe at Beyrout, and the Gorgon and Stromboli, which o f since proceeded, the f.,rmer to Acre, fur the puri" g ; to assisting to bring away the marines who were left therf„ot garrison the fortress, but have suffered most ae verelY d a c sickness, and the latter to Alexandria, with Cornow.., is Sir Charles Napier. Lieutenant-Calonel now left in the chief command of the Royal 31arine s i3 iCo Mediterranean. The rewards for the late arduous s,elvted on the coast of Syria have been most liberally distil° in the shape of promotion. l" All the commanders are made post-captains, 3 senior lieutenants, commanders; five mates o f die, ;11 ship, three of the commodore's, and the two senior er % ri d of the other ships, are made lieutenants; all the sec o r , masters, masters, and five assistant surgeons ar c madC is geons. Captain Arthur Mori,on, of the Royal Marinoeits promoted to the bievet rank of major in the army. f gallantry at the storming of Sidon ; and Captain WhYvicc a the came corps, has received a similar honour; der 0 1 Admiral Walker Pacha is made a Knight Comilla° der the Bath, and arrived here to. day in a . Turkish s'•e' from Constantinople. (From the Malta Chronicle of Jan. 21.) r , irt Her Majesty's troop-ship Sapphire, Cole waste tlie command, having on board the 59th Regiment fr Qra s ey lonian Islands, bailed to one of the West India P ° :her sions, put into Malta on the 13th inst., and will, tqceoll; with the Cornwall transport, J. Young command er gil l " vey to the same destination the bead-quarters ofthe Highlanders, fr,an this garrison, about Saturday The Ottoman fleet will be refitted at Marmorice by the crews of the British ships of war before P ceeding to Constantinople. On its arrival in safe d l o tra, Martnorice, Sir Robert Stopford will, it is said, ru n w oo ni to Malta in the Cyclops steam-frigate, leaving in ce- Sir John Ornmanney, who arrived at Marmorieetba the 7th, in his flag-ship, the Britannia, wilt ba d Howe and Castor in company. The CycloP s „ot; also arrived from Malta. The Benbow was at 13e Y Or icef the Edinburgh is on her way to Malta from Mar°l-1",-ite' and , ill, it is supposed, be shortly followed by th e , rophon, Princess Charlotte, and Implacab'e, all of ai d vessels. it is expected. will be sent to England to ",,j for off. The Asia and Pique will shortly leave Malta left England. The Locust, steam-tender, Lieut. Lu r ' n - i th e for Marmorice with the Lond , n mails for the fleet o f 31st of December and the 411 of January, and de5P,- seo for the Admiral. The Wasp followed on the 154" the Hastings on the 18th. rhe A rumour prevails that the Sultan has decorate their officers of the navy and marines lately promoted f ( " r g elid services on the coast of Syria with a five piastres Ca' medal, and that it is in contemplation by the Ottrna-oleo, vernm ent to grant a year's pay to all the officers, seatioas and marines who have assisted in the late o p era against the Pacha of Egypt ma de TILE DEAF AND DUMB.—SOne i" 2ks we alluded in terms of approbation to an exhibiOrLidrent y Dr, Turnbull with certain deaf and dumb c . c i the Argyll 11,tel—but with all our natural dre°,oo, quacks and quackery, we are free to confess ihatsty taco we had our doubts—not at all of the s t ; purpose of Dr. Turnbull—but of the efficacy 01 ,; 1 , -1 , tempts to make the deaf hear and the dumb to sr,: more than a word or so, in a very inarticulate flia' r ' - d r. c% . ,': terday, however, the Doctor had a more mat °. nti"" ition at hie lodgings in Bath-street, in presence Of,. mop, her of ladies. medical gentlemen, and some of Q ‘ , s , a r influential citizens—among whom we observed t""i3sill" Dr. Brown, Wm. Campbell, Esq. Bailie Lumsden'il, Wilson, Dr. M'Farlane, Dr. Perry, ' Dr. Nl`D °wa , abl c d - Butthanan, Mr. Ord, &c., &c.—and we are 0 0 % ° 0 g ) ; to express our delight and surprise at all we ,, r - : heard ;in short, we never were present at a e ov c„ resting display, and many of those assumbled ar tl' almost to tears, while listening to the correct t he 11: of the children, and the confessions of surpris e hi I , t v : " rents at the improvement which had been made °coot,' little ones by the skill of the Doctor.—G lo 9 ° ,-, W pete r b pd tutional of Wednesday.—[We understand the P°,i es f a°, been most successful in his operations on the b° dumb in the West of Scotland, a nd tbat before his o f t to London he will afford the medical tabsprofes69.nje; University of Edinburgh an opportunity of P 471 - ther they really have the beneficial effects describe iftre many journals.l t THE LATE F. H. STANDISH, — s to - 1) have received a communication from the solicitorti;_iob tae devisees in ttust and executors of the deceased, w ° Tbel i regret we cannot insert entire for want of rO Oll/ i ' o ula t .,,, state that many incorrect reports have been ° fa ! ba' o with respect to the bequests, which, although lib c ' s 'go 1 6 been much exaggerated, and the principal estateoestbet the heir-at-law. It is true that Mr. Standish beg 0 , his valuable collection of pictures to Louis Phl o tri ° never offered them to the Government of this 0 2 _,, e tcP, an inducement for the revival of the extinct hali ip g 0 ' The will by which the pictures were left to th e a „ o ur Or the French was made in 1831, and, according to formants, he never contemplated its revocation.