The Sun. — London, England, 1841-02-26 00:00:00

rioN. ,e acre `",, r they r House ratove, ,ropert3l — p ( the ,;, Net' because f the suPP ° l r jew ber Iladical ard some se ? Ihe 1 100, r 3 constituernece essions .tail:gi would not N ble of tl'e.r. r . r ° te n* . lacy at Tv T o n. Gev"el:,., It lin o f Fr•t"; !'n Ir. di s fran langaa ch; : *_ , L. Gentlemen 7- a Meinbeovrerie: raasrrergid, tb2,tio ins of Irish T i e. t Englan d , II drit ke r Ina ,A r in 0 irticuo., Var. t°l. ag e:" ;miles." 4 , 0 lien d' e daP con d, . a re 1), he dpr o ld scene- AIORNI NG ED ITI ON. isspence. had the franchise as a burgess; but because a man bad the misfortune to he born in Ireland, he must be an oc cupant to the value of 101. before he obtained the like right. .ihDid they think that all these things did not rankle in the neacrtts. of the I r i s h people? Let there not lay the flattering 44:t u ion I to their sou l s; for they thought both deeply and indig.. orer these matters. What fell from the Learned Re er only t ~•unicipal Bill, Session ? He stated, in the debate on the that " the -" D oer-law came into useful opera !ten—at all events, it would suply a safe criterion for the basis of the fra n chise." Wh did he not whisper to the Noble Lord, when hem the ) endment, that the law was was a safe criterie4 might have been rise t o him, intoposs A fcr basis of the franchise? It fallingand have saved him from error. Again, they complained of the abolition iefitiheAtisga,inran chise. It had been often said that was a compact • zotnarslem•pa, torn. 3 :le disdainfully denied that—they obtatetd Yoshio:RA any compromise. The Learned Mace. hr ,„s Lefroy), and the Learned Sergeant (Jackson), b ad r cad part of the evidence given by hirn, and they 'lls it appear as if that evidence had been given in the 4„,,5ea1,0f di &nen ipstion. They had both mtrsepresented him, c " .4 ar " ad carefully abstained from citing the. paee. He said, f a , Y, because in the first answer fir: House would have snd that he said there were two species of 40s. franchise— 's,'" in perpetuity, as in E ng l an d , and no man would have 'nought of touching it.—(Heas hear.) Then there was the derivative franchise, any, he stated that the master of the o Orange Lodge ia t;ork, a respectable man, could bring 600 Catholic voters led by a most tholi ecta c Ca M agistrate, tht vote just as he pleased. But that was in 1825. It was said at they were disfranchised not for their religion but for their eepn..denee on their landlords. No:hing coutd be more eon tra-y to the fact. They were disfranchised because they were Ca ' re drholles, and. becau se th ey were i ndependent. In 18•25 they weiven an liks live stoc totbe hustings ; but a great change °n t r Place since 182 5 . I n t h at year they came over in the time t .; r " r ° 3 l` erity Robi nson , as C ohbett had so well named him, at the de ri nen they wer e sen di ng 1 6,000,000 of capital to the An ths seek for employment. They came and carried the Bill tir'Jugh that House ; but it was ignominiously thrown out in e House of Lords. Did they think the people of Ireland were dead to all feeling ? What was the consequence? The 40s. freeholders of Ireland took up the quarrel. Dawson was re turned for Louth a ga i nst a ll the power of the Fosters ; in 1826 Villiers Stuart was returned for Waterford against the united strenzth of C l areresfordslB2B the noble 40s. free holders of returned himself to that House. It was th e 4 0 s. freeholders, by their independence, that won tmaneination. and it was followed by their extinction, and yet 'the Noble Lord had come out upon him (he was a bold man, to be sure). Th e N o bl e Lord pi esusned to state that it was accoont tf their dependence the:, they were suppressed, and not 0 h account of their religion. He was astonished that any /*an occupying the station of t he Noble Lord should forget so ' completely every fact of the ease. The House would recollect 6 3 Catholic NoSleme sn and gentlemen, quite as high vrd "" rio urable as the Lear.ied Recorder who hail stated that they 'ere not th e very wealthiest-63 of ' them came to London to .b,"tcl the progress of the BM, and the moment the Bill was in bet heed to disfranchise the 40s. freeholders a meeting was di : at the Thatched House Tavern, and he (Mr. O'Connell) ' up a petition, praying the House, if they were only to be I.._Jkancipated on the terms of dis ranehising the 40s. freeholders, g"' reject the Bill rather than disfranchise them.—( Hear, surprised, therefore, at the mistakes that were "atie by Hen. Memhers, and, above all, by the Noble Lord the M ember f or N ort h Lancashire, who knew well that if they were Protestants asid dependent they would be reiained, but t hat, being CatheAes, and independent the were disfranchised, and that was ulled a settlement of the , que s tion. It was such a settlement as Gil Blas was offered in the cave, when he we., I s ked, "Wh at w i ll you give me if I give you your own ?" tJustice and hum an it y were i n f avour o f 40s. freeholds, and the hote°Ple of Ireland felt th a t i n th e i r di s f ranc hi sement they had een outreged and insulted. I n England the Reform Bill did act pon the the franchise as they had supposed. It was ceatendisig it in their corporate towns, and extending it ;fls° 17, counties, and why had they not granted the same e as'sre of justice in the Irish Reform Bill ? Because the " a mf spirit prevailed then as prevailed at present. He (Mr. O'C. ) taetr3mpanied by Lieutenant Newport, waited upon the Secre skar Y of State for the Home Department (Lord Althorp), and ' 4O 'y left him with a strong impression that the Irish franchise , E i rm old be extended. He would do him the justice to say that did not commit himself. They returned to those who had de:legated them, and so strongly were they impressed with the *Pinion that the Noble Lord was with them that they reported 1 1/1 )e I v orble L or d was w i t h t h em. But the Noble Lord the 1,1 I ,e,trdser for North Lancashire, who brought in his Registration Extinction Bill--took care to secure Lord Althorp. hey were sent for to a second interview, and they found tt ere the Noble Lord opposite and the Noble Lord ss tb e Secretary for the Colonies. They . were not en rated, but they were prevented from urging their claims en rated, by the interference of that Noble Lord. " e y left discomfited a n d d e f eate d , an d i n sp i te of all their best 'lea rvou s the 40s. freeholders were disfranchised.—(Ro p i e r, ‘a s -- s r • W i ere they not refusing the people of Ireland a pror form Bill now ? He had learned from one of the ablest 1 141 , and one of the most pleasing speakers that ever addressed )1d olic assembly, the Hon. and Learned M em b er f or Exeter, . it seemed to him somewhat extraordinary that they should Z e f it t° sweep assay all the 101. franchises. But th e Hon. and , 01 Meml',er did not seem to recollect that if they had a t ° Pe.rtY they must he worth a 51. rate. They had strug ss th ram for their rights and privileges, and for an equal Tote of rep . resentatio n with England. It was what they 1; 4 trued now. He had claimed it last year, and was opposed ta Y . , the Noble Lord (Morpeth), who had been very properly I n u nted with resisting it then, and yielding it now.—( Hear, hear. ) But had the opposite party now yielded it? If le Noble Lord had used a bad argument last year, and found fiat the tinse was come now, the Noble Lord having apparently Zade case fur a registrati o n Bill w hi c h b a d b een carr i e d b y f Q ,, fhti ; .illY,tic majorities, the Irish people had now obtai ne d that it , ay that th e Bill for extending the franchise and making hius el P (trite and certain had been brought in, and, so far. at zc ' they had suciveded. But it was said they had m a d e out p s ' ° ; of and the Noble L or d, w ith hi s exce ll en t mo d e of dis til ' l '; of any thing in the shape of objection, for nobody was " iet ter deb ater , h a d rea d f rom a d ocument on t h e table the ' t/ t. i .te of the franchise in Ireland. Th e N o bl e Lord said 7.°W can you say the franchise is not sufficient rd it I find here the extent of it." The Noble th, u r ras not in that House a s h or t ti me ago w h en :" )11 . Member for Belfast g a ve an explanation of the docu io. e b "", " Now y o u h a v e an amp l e f ranc h ise — t h ere are 17,. the 1 1 0 0 las — " - ulin, and I find there w ere 14,500 on the register at " rd ection." How many had h e (M r . O'C. ) p01t,;,? 3 , 50 1 t i; colleag ue had polled about a dozen less, as ~ ,,t the Hon. Can te on tire other side had polled 3,400, so that there were I s .- ""er 7 ,000 out of a registry of 14,000, and he and his colleague liavtil.rt:ernect:rned by a majority of on 4 80. The actual number 'registered, and voting was not 7,000, and in Dublin, the con was better watched on both sides than any where ro i l l e , - ;( Hear, hear.) Why should he proceed to comment on " • The Noble Lord bad taken a column headed ttentitled to register at the date of this order." . "e found that the date of the order was the 25th of February, 11° that every man who had ever registered appeared upon that Jest every the eight years not having elapsed. All that had died to life, and were on the list—all those whose terms had :c-Ptrd—all those who had changed their residences and had i e- r e gistered—all those who had changed their residence, and liad n ot re -registered, were ther e — a ll t h ose w h o h a d l ost some ti ves o ft of their leases—al those who had parted with a por ,n,, of their franchise—in short, all the dead, extinguished, it° clo p li cates—everythin,,e was there, and when a doubt was - t . r "irn out that the return could not be relied on, the Noble ,I"itetl asked 'why did the Government present such a paper ? , Ili er ar ' and cheers.) The Noble Lord ought to have be en Z 5 to have heard the Hon. Member for Belfast admit with tidour--and candour was not his forte—that it was a fictitious -fietrti,; 1` and vet the Learned Recorder, a lth oug h t o ld i t was f5,,,,,"° : with a power of countenance unequalled h a d quo t e d that document. He would remind the house that that torn ot the only inju s ti ce th a t wou ld b e done there by the Re co,, B ill. Another crying one was, they had remodelled the cs:stituencies and the representation—they had added to tho xx .rity „„Pleefembers he cared not for what object. How did it 44n that i n every county in England, without o ne b e i ng etted, iihich there were 100,000 inhabitants, they had 14„, two to the number of Nl em b ers returned? How did it ad ded that whil e t h ey did so. in no county in Ireland had they ./ si ngle representative? They were governing Ireland, er°, anted her to join England in her battles. 'they wanted at4 e t? sha re i n her burthens to the extent that the poverty ad Jatl cr eated enabled he r t o contribute; and what r e t urn di created received for all that? They were told that there tl i , a o unio n , and should there not be an identificatio n — oug ht out eunot to be an ass i m il at i on? And how could they come ~ ,Pen him, an d te ll hi m that there was an union the t`,.. i ' a rtled the franchise? How did th e y es ti mate Tin t v !Itsh counties, in giving them the additional Members ? stion'ilY estimate property ? No such thing, they took popu it ' I , ---(Loud. cheers.) He would show that they bad taken sta'„,"°re instances than one. The Noble Lord and the k R;;e4 'Recorder had alluded to their having four millions in esti . .` e . of destitution and pauperism hut they had made no t i ns " , at e of wealth or property in England in granting the fran dia they had based it entire yon population.—(Hear._) And t o , .4t,lley think there was not common sense enough in Ireland tha n 'relate the insults to the country and the injustice 'wows ha d been done her ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) He Rho Put Put it to the , good sense of the people of England, latni, notwithstanding the prejudice against the people of Ire l'eople ad , '. he would say, much good sense ; would not the the x„.`" l and feel that state of things ? Notwithstanding stfeto—belyable confusion of the speech delivered by the Hon. ` 4 4t for Wakefield (Mr. Laselles), he would tell them tPassing mberland, with 126,680 inhabitants, had got, on the c_ir,sof the Reform Bill, two additional Members, and now 4 rie rrtt s i ed four. Cork, with 713,716 inhabitants, had two ad diti on before before the Reform Bill, and had not got one in Pul at i They took it by popu l at i on ! Here i was their rabiiantcol for them. N or th um b er l and, with 1 7 9,176 n -337,871 S' got tw o a ddi t i onal Members ; and Down, with su,i mhabitants, had two Members before the Reform Bill. arid D e us got one in addition by that measure. The Hon. t lll e ifift,,d Gentleman proceeded at some length to detail oti,_ er ,' - enees of population in various counties in England, that ef .".', and Ireland, and to show that population was the t tha t the tne franchise, and not property; and proceeded to say het,. rnight tell him there was a union between these .4°10,,, les, but he would as k th, was it such a union as he, oußh e t r Qf liberty , insisting o n ; In ecivality of rights with them, to be content and satisfied n with ? And if he had a right jegrere satisfied with it, would they throw another poisonous lad!Ile e a t rie it,lt,o the cup of discontent, by refusing an extension 'R e . I roe sese m ,se ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said he lo ttl ctto show the injustice done to Ireland by the Vicount in a comparison of the populations of Wales and _d'ulati on Y uf Cork, which latter, he contended, from its Lord (L _ !e really felt some gratitude to the Noble ttr.e. i,,r:ortf.ll, Stanley) opposite, not for his intention—not t i :Ruish but for his not having left the franchise to ex *Out i t self, or rather for net having suffered the landlords ageso su tir But for him the people of Ireland might not (Locerdessc.flly resisted the extinction of the franchise. It tl Ind bot otanley) who summoned them to the field. He _Ocernents ,"etalll the House long by going through all those "nu ht arrvetoasishich. he had alluded. Those which he had read i • N:tecimens of the whole. They would show the nf t , t !i• th en it.,:it:lation of their counties—the enormous extent of iii ei ne—they would show the enormous population * _ , tne and the miserable deficiency that existed mad e "iof these counties. But it was property that YrrMeilve the se test of the right to vote torionth ! Upon what g what pr ig ould a'k, did they disfranchise the boroughs? at,r iple but on th t f Ifo alone U n , di d ti' * a o popuatt •Upo n Of poptdat . ley enfrauchise the boroug'ss. It was on the ()thrl:4l)Ztaior'sd lon al-me. f hey used the same principle to dis en fi anchs , e the boroughs. 'I hey used the principle er rs } now to"ohtTreyer and whenever it suitedtheir purpose ; and 14 ' 111 ; 4 7' ihe'e People of Ireland and said to them " You po„ . t-at was fore, u shall not possess the franchise." NW's it. Iv th e very reason that they ought the more to ikst sill it. IF ' 51 it not the poor man that most wanted every th e e :l, as i o t ` i h t ,! l e could get. Forty-one years had the Union now penrunion, te r e xcuse, in the present the forty-first year of hetthat Bill siretir( Hear ' : h" giving them justice was, that they were too exte ioasehodear, from the Aliniste jail. benches. ) Bede t w Were hee"Med whether he would uelaod, o °l‘l he tuofrrEategland, he would say that readily . and yro okt be eanse t !lse every exertion of his to extend it to "Ms.h l M eat he would claim no right for himself that he •Of ti MN. " , ;I ) t°„. others.— (Ministerial cheers.) Having I .or t i t oues,i„ it 1,0,, entering into the diseession d ittw o rahley ) tro i r",.• t:rain hunk' ratod. '1 he :Noble intha 13ili tu regulate the franchise, and %Attle e to u g t . er. what the fralichise was. Was 7 English good sense to make a machine without knowing for what ? He (Mr. O'Connell) had great respect for the talents of the Hon, end Learned Member for Exeter (Sir William Follett), It was impossible not to feel such respect. There was a fascination about his eloquence that could be derived only from the highest emanations of talent, and, he thought, kindliness of disposition. He (Mr. O'Connell) did not mean to pay any idle compliment to one who differed so decidedly with him in political opinion, but he thought that that Hon. and Learned Gentleman united the qualities of a powerful advocate with judicial determination ; he would make a good Judge, but he (Mr. O'Connell) was greatly sur psi ed to hear him speak of the beneficial interest. He (Mr. O'Connell) retained his old love of profession si far as to trespass on the House to show how clear a case he had against the opinions advanced by the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen. The Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland ( Lord Hetrick) had attributed to him (Mr. O'Connell) opinions on the subject of beneficial interest, which had not been uttered by him, and which he wished to correct. He (Mr. O'Connell) thought that the beneficial interest was that which it was worth to a man after deducting his labour and cultivation. So that his own labour was no more an ingredient in the beneficial interest than if he had got another man to perform that labour, He did not blame the Noble Lord for the statement which he had attributed to him (Mr. O'Connell). It was no doubt owing to mistake. He ( Mr. O'Connell) stated that the freehold fran chi.e of 10. was first created by the Emancipation Act ; by that the franchise was, as he believed, clearly of the value of 101. He would not go on quoting what this man or that man said on the subject.—( Hear.) It was manifest the re porters 64 not understand what he said on the subject. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to compare the clauses respecting franchise in the Emancipation Act and the Reform Bill, and to contend that if they meant the same they would have contained the same words, but that if they meant differently the words would differ, which was the case. He was glad to get out of this subject, but he had felt it right to vindicate the Judges against the attacks made upon them. He would to Heaven he had such a Judge as the Hon. an-1 Learned Member for Exeter. The Learned Recorder had read the opinion of Judge Crampton, who had said there was nothing but a wire-drawn and refined distinction between a meeting of the Judges in the Court of Exchequer and a meet ing in a party in which a brother Judge consults. Was there not this distinction, that in the one case there was a writ of error, and in the other no app ea l ?—( H ear , h ear .) I t was a mockery—with all respect to the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter—was it not a mockery to say all the Judges should be bound by the opinion of the majority ? The statute had givenan appeal to a single Judge ; it had called for the opinion of a single Judge. and he was bound to give it upon oath. Itwas not given to the twelve Judges, and why not ? If they had done so they must have gone further, and have given it to the House of Lords. They could not leave the franchises of the people to the Judges, neither could they give an appeal to the House of ,Lords, because they could not give their franchises to the House of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) He therefore laughed to scorn this species of courtesy to the Judges which frittered away the rights of the subject, and took from them the power of apps al, and he would remind the House that the Stuarts for feited ,he Crown for In vldling with the Judges.—(Hear, hear ) And now he re pectfully appealed to the House to grant them the franchises they demanded. It was the inten tion of the Reform Bill to grant it, and he had the authority of a gentleman would vote against him that it ought to be in creased. He had the authority of common sense and reason, and of every principle of justice, that they ought to be put upon an equality with the Eng lish. He asked them, therefore, to give them justice. He had shown them their grievous cr.m es towards Ireland. They had been told that the Orange party had been making concessions for the last fifty years. But he would tell that party that they had been for more than a century violating the treaty of Limerick.—( The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was here, as throughout the greater part of his speech, heard vet) , indistinctly, and seemed to labour under great illness or great emotion. Scarcely a sentence could be correctly understood in the gallery.) America had been lost to Great Britain, be cause the latter had rejected all terms of conciliation. In 1792, when this country was in a state of apparent security, the petition of the Roman Catholics for emancipation was thrown out upon the motion of Mr. Latouche, the Member for Kildare. But before the year expired, the aspect of affairs was changed, and in the November of that year an Emancipation Act was passed.—( Hear, hear.) They talked to Catholic Ire land of ingratitude, but they forgot that they passed the first Act of Emancipation only after they had lost America. It was (as we understood the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen) one of the splendid errors of Napoleon that he overlooked the con dition of Ireland. It was the infidelity of Franco that secured to Great Britain the Catholic priesthood of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) And he agreed with his Hon. Friend, the Member for Limerick, that if an invasion were to take place to-morrow, that priesthood would be foremost in sending their flocks in arms to oppose the invaders. But let them be told that they were demon-priesthood—(Cheers) —that they were surpliced ruffians—( Cheers, :and some confusion)—let them see the 3PNeiles and Jezebels of Liverpool sending petitions with 27,000 signatures so denouncing them, and let them see the House of Com mons yi e ldi ng to such petitions—( Cheers, amidst which the conclusion of the sentence was lost.) "You tell me " (said the Hen. and Learned Gentleman) " you do not feel. Who ever heard of Englishmen feeling?—(Cheers. ) You have a perseverance in your people of which no other nation can boast ; and I have not the folly to think I can terrify you, but I will advise.—(Cheers.) I ask you, how long wills ou be at peace with France ?"--( Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to refer to the returns laid before the French Chambers to show the state of prepara tion_ for war in which: th a t na ti on h a d p l ace d itself. There was in France an array of 500,000 men, with a reserve of 150,000. The French felt themselves humiliated, and they were watching for the domestic dangers of this country.— ( Hear, hear.) Would it not be wise in such circumstances to have Ireland in a state of conciliation ?—( Hear.) Trhough the national strength of this empire, we might set the whole world in arms at defiance, if the people of the empire were united, with the confidence of equal rights and equal justice. In the kingdoms of Prussia and the Netherlands, it had been attempted to oppress the Roman Catholic portion of the people. In the former it had been deemed wise to make timely concessions ; the integrity of. - Prussia was unimpaired. The King of the Nether l- ..nds had adopted an opposite co urse , an d h e cense quer..cly lost Be'gium.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. O'Connell) 'would not threaten Hon. Members on the other side of the House, but he would tell them they were the real Repealers. —( Cheers.) So much so were they considered by the people of Ireland, that he had been requested to make the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire a member of the Repeal Association.—(Cheers and laughter.) He was sure no one ever deserved it half so well.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that it would be unwise of the people of Ireland to have recourse to violence in their resistance to the measure; and while he (Mr. O'Connell) had influence in that country, and while the Catholic clergy, who were their unpaid magistracy there, could lead the people, they would never again have the pleasure of a rebellion in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) They might have outrages, but they would not have a rebellion. The object of the present measure was to restore the old Orange ascendancy. They taunted the pre sent Government with being the slaves of the Irish party ; and he believed the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, was kind enough to quote him la t night. He wished the Right Hon. Baronet had quoted him more accu rately. He had spoken of the offer made to him (Mr. O'Con nell) of the office of Chief Baron, and said that he was unwilling to pollute justice in his person. He did not know whether the Hon. Baronet used the expression, but if he had he was totally mistaken. Looking at the reports he found that there was a difference in the expressions, but that the substance was the same. What he (Mr. O'Connell) had said was, that he had refused the offer of the Justiceship because he had feared, first, that he would be compelled to manifest a partiality for those who differed with him in politics, for the sake of presery • ing the character of the Bench ; and secondly, . because, lest from an affectation of 01 er-candour, he should not do justice to those who were his political friends. They would have no such refusal from Honourable and Learned Gentlemen on the other side.--( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) They would have no scruples of that kind to contend with. For the motives he had stoted he bad refused the offer made to him, however much he might have desired to enjoy the " otium cum dignitate." But it appears that the people of Ireland were now to be handed over to the Orange party—that Orange party who would not allow a man to travel on their roads. That was the case in civilised Ulster. He had gone to Bel fast—he had a right to go there ; and one Magistrate had ac awed the Government—because they had sent troops to protect his life—t hat they were Repealers, while the windows of the room in which he was were broken by an mob. He did not complain of but he wished to show the spirit which animated the Orange men of Ireland. He found in the Irish newspapers, that when it had been found he had passed unknown through the town of Dromore, a large mob collected there, and h aving fi re d a t hi s (Mr. O' Connell's) effigy—he wished to know whether their arms were registered—afterwards burned it, and, in the midst of party cries, excited a disturbance in the town, and severely injured a Roman Catholic who attempted to remonstrate with them. Those were the men on whose support the party oppo site must rely. Need he remind the House of the assault on a Roman Catholic's house, some years ago, in Armagh. On that occasion an Hon. and Gallant Member opposite—and there did not exist any where a man of a hi g h er charac ter—was a witness of the disturbance • and yet, in that case, the party went wholly unpunished.—( Hear, hear.) Again, an Irish party had fired, a few years ago, on inoffensive children at Molyash, in the county of Monaghan; and but a !ew days ago an inoffensive individual had been assailed at a fair at Fermans gh, and but fur interference he might have been grievously injured. All that had happened in the North, in what was called the flower of Ireland. Let him again return to statistical details. In four counties only in Ireland was there a majority of Protestants. In Ulster itself there was a majority of 116,000 Roman Catholics; while in the other province the numbers were ten to one, and in the county of Clare there were 286,000 Roman Catholics and only 5,000 Protest ants. Could they in their endeavours to suppress the liberties of such a population call out the militia? Could they insult Ireland by so doing? He believed that they could not. All that the Irish people asked was justice and equality ; but they would resist to the last the attempt to extinguish their franchises. Let English Gentlemen recollect the risk they were running, and for what? Why, compared with the risk, it was for no thing.—(Cheers.) He should d ou b t l ess be told that he had threatened—that he had used high language.--( Cheers. ) He had spoken in a tone and temper that became the representa tive of the Irish people.—(Cheers and laughter from the Op position.) He was the representative of the great majority of them—(Cheers)—and he was trusted by them.—( Chee rs . He should be told that he had spoken sedition, but let them recollect that he had spoken it to warn them of something worse than sedition. He would be degrading himself and his country if he were to submit to take any right of franchise less than England.--(Cheers.) If they passed that Bill, they would be depriving him of a great part of his power over the Irish people. He asked them to do so—(Cheers)—he asked them to disarm him of his p o we r , by doing justice to his country—(Cheers.)—but if they refused, they would arm him with ten-fold power, because they would arm him with right._ ( Loud cheers. ) Sir ROBERT PEEL could not accede to the justice of the eulogium which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had passed upon himself, that he had spoken in a tone and temper worthy o the representative of the Irish people.—(Loud cheers.) Any speech delivered in a tone and temper more unworthy of that character he had never heard. —( Vehement cheering. ) He did not complain of the high tone he had assumed, but he did complain of the apparent delight with which he had gloated on the history of the past animosities between the two countries.—(Loud cheers.) He had met with no sympathy however—( Continued cheering)—not because the House was indifferent to fhe welfare of Ireland—( Cheers) — not because they were actuated by a desire of reviving past disputes between England and Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) He would tell the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that there were not ten men in that House who responded to his efforts to rip up and exasperate all the old animosities.—(Loud cheers.) What was the use of dwelling on the history of past differences —of alluding to what the Hon. Gentleman called the oppres sion of seven centuries ?—( Cheers. ) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded to a time when he said that a wolf's head was valued• at the same` price as the head of an Irish Catholic, and•would have it insinuated that the spirit of those days actuated the Legislature of the present. And on that part of the representation of the . Hon. and Learned 'Gentleman, he would ask the Noble Lord opposite, the leader of that House, and the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, if tkey be -1 eyed that that was a correct assertion.— ( Vehement cheering. ) And in the allusion to the parowhicii Ireland might. take in case of the growing difficulties of this country, he would again say that he believed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was holding a language unworthy of thftepresentative of the Irish THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1841. people.—(Loud cheers.) He believed that the Hon. and Leal ned Gentleman was libelling his eountry—( Vthement cheering)—wh en he insinuated that they would not assist us in repelling the attacks of Fratiee or A merie,a ; if by any un fortunate occurrence of circumstances a gnu rel should arise with either of those countries. He had heard with pleasure the more generous, and he believed the more just representa tions of an Irishrepresentative— o f an Irish Roman Catholic, who, indignant at the attacks made upon the fair fame and character of his country last night—in the course of that night's debate said that he did not believe that if a quarrel came his countrymen would separate themselves from the desTinies of this country, but had made it his proud boast that, whatever might be the.r domestic quarrels on the registration, or the extension of the franchise, the Roman Catholic priests would be the first to rally their flocks round the standard of England, and forget all minor differences in their eager support of the common cause.—( Cheers.) Hehoped the Right Hon. the Secre tary at War, the Hight Hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and the Hon. Member for Liskeard, the three who had attempted by menace to extort from the House con cessions, even against their reason and against their conviction, if so it might be—he hoped they bail listened to the speech of the Honourable and Learned Member—he hoped they had well considered what prospect there was of those concessions being made on the same grounds, arguments for the subsequent menaces—he hoped that after the candid avowal of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman they would consider what further concessions the Hon and Learned Gentleman might hereafter demand in the course, perhaps, t f next Session, as the price of the purchase of peace.—( Cheers. ) That was the only part of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman for which he could give him credit. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that if they granted him that coace , sion, it would disarm him of much of his power. But what was the tenor of the who'e of the first part of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman? Did he not tell them that although they had made a sacrifice of one-fourth of the revenues of the Established Church fir the sake of peace earl concilsa tion that that would now be of no advsntaire unless the other three-fourths were sacrificed ?—( hood cheer ing.) What was the spirit of the whole of the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman ? With the expres sions of peace and conciliation on his lips, such a deter mined profession of into'erance he had never heard —(Loud cheers.) Why he had brought it forward as a matter of grave charge against a clergyman of the Church of England that he bad done, what? That he had petitioned the House of Com mons. Why, the lion. and Learned Gentleman ha l begun his own speech by reading a petition to the House of Commons from a Vicar-General of the Roman Catholic Church. If a Roman Catholic Vicar-General might, in s•rong and emphatic langu ge, not immediately connected with his religious func tions, petition the House of Commons—and who _questioned his right to do so—surely the Hon. and Learned Gentleman might extend the same measure of justice to a minister of the Established Church, who, having heard that the sacrifice of a quarter of the revenues of that Church had done nothing for the purchase of peace, but that the re mainder was required, had presented a petition to draw the at ten ion of Parliament. Surely the Lion. Gentleman could not contend that that was inco rect or unreasonable.—(Loud cheering.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had com plained of attacks on the Judges. Certain of the Judges had agreed with him jn opinion, and their opinion had been com mented on ; and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that nothing could be so unwarrantable sir so unworthy as to call the purity of the Judicial Bench in question. But five minutes had not elapsed before the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, find ing that the Chi e f J ust i ce o f t h e Q ueen ' s Bench (Mr. Justice Crampton) differed with him in opinion, attacked that Learned Judge in the most vehement manner, forgetting all he had said of the unworthiness of these attempts at the degradation of the Judicial Bench.—((`beers.) If the extension of the fran chise were just —if it were consistent with past engagements--if it were consistent wish the great leei.lative Act which had given emancipation to the Roman Catholics—if it would con duce to the order and social welfare of Ireland he would en treat the House to forget the inflammatory lanugage of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—to forget the spirit ofhis decla mation, which was so calculated to injure any cause, and to do what was just in spite of the advocacy of the Learned Gentleman. lf, however, they were not satisfied that it was politic to dis turb settlements that now existed—not to disturb but to sub vert them—if they thought it would not procure the social welfare of Ireland, then he would say, don't pass it in the hope that by passing it they would secure the favour of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, or advance the cause of conciliation. —(Cheers.) Why did he say this? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had insinuated that the diminution, or rather the want of an extended representation in Ireland, was a greater injury than no representation at all. The Hon. Gentleman had used these words, that it was not only an injury but an in sult to the people of Ireland to give that country 105 Members. The Hon. Member had also used these words which were appli cable to the Noble Lord opposite, that it was natural that those who were injured and insulted should continue to hate them. Now he ( Sir R Peel) was not the man who had in jured or insulted them. It was the Government who passed the Reform Bill that was responsible.—( Hear, hear.) Would it not be wise, therefore, that they should well consider the whole of the question, not making any partial distinctions ; but if they were to make concessions against their reason and con viction for the sake of peace, they should make the whole con cession that was demanded from them, and not give to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that by which he would extort the rest, without even purchasing a temporary calm.—(Cheering. ) Supposing that the foreign prospects were more cloudy next year than now, and supposing that the Honourable Gen tleman should give his notice for !extended 'representation, and supposing that the Honourable Gentleman had said, If you don't give it to me I s h a ll f orce i t f rom you, would that Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, tell them that they should concede that which was asked, for the parpose of making Ireland available as the right arm of England? The Hon. Member for Liskeard had seemed to dwell with much complacency upon that state of things, when insurrection did not break out, but when he said by the cunnipg device of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman insurrection was ready to break out.— ( Hear.) He had heard with disgust it stated that the present was a question not of votes but cif arming—(Cheers) —would the demand for increased representation be a question of arm ing and not of votes? Would the Honourable and Learned Gentleman promise, if this concession were made, that he would abandon all future schemes of agitation, and de part from those devices by which he keeps a country under the menaces of insurrection.—(Cheers.) He had al: ready disturbed the peace of the country, interrupted its in dustry, and prevented the importation of capital into it— (Cheers)—and would he accept the compliment of the Hon. Member for Liskeard, that he it was who had devised an in strument eminently applicable for the purposes of insurrection? If the present measure was a just one—if it was for the welfare of Ireland, then he trusted that, notwithstanding the state ments of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the House would show its determination to do justice to Ireland. Let those who had public duties to perform claim to themselves the privilege of dispassionately considering whether the measure then under their consideration was a measure perfectly con. sistent with the best interests of Ireland, and whether it was calculated to advance the independence of the electors, and promote the social welfare of the country.—( Hear, hear. ) He would now consider what the real nature of the present proposal was. Could they deny that it was a proposal to sub vert the present representative system in Ireland, and to give a new representative system? By the Bill it was proposed, in the place of the present franchise in Ireland, to have a declared franchise, and rating to the extent of 5/. In England they had a declared franchise, independent and beyond all rent and charges. In Ireland they proposed to attach no such condition to the freehold—the mere rating of the freehold was snfficient to give a vote.—( Hear, hear.) The freehold itself might be worse than nothing ; there mig:it be mortgages or other in cumbrances upon it absorbing altogether the profits. In Ireland that would be no disqualification. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") The freeholder, onee rated, was not called upon to give that assurance which the English freeholder must give, that his freehold was above rents a n d c h arges . I n Ireland the freehold franchise was to be entirely free from them. They proposal a lease freehold franchise of fourteen years, for which they required nothing more than a rating to the poor. Of course residence was not required. All that was required was occupancy. That franchise was a more ex tensive one than the household franchise. It was not the rid scot and lot franchise which was abolished, because the scot and lot vo er was dependent ; for it was not necessary for a five pound leaseholder to pay any taxes ;it was not necessary for him to pay the Poor-rates. Nay, it was not necessary that the property which he held should be liable to the Poor. rates. Though his property was chargeable to the Poor-rate, he was under no obligation to pay it. Therefore, in the case of the freehold franchise, as he had said before, it was free from rents and incumbrances. I n th e case o f the leasehold fran chise, it exempted the voter altogether from any obligation to pay the rate in respect of which the franchise was acquired. In the towns they had reduced the franchise arbiti arily from ten pounds to five. Had they assigned any reason for this ? Had they proved that the franchise in towns was diminished?— (Hear, hear.) Had they any suspicion that it was so? Now, he did not intend to enter at all into the details of this ques. tion ; not one word would he say about beneficial interest, not one word about the solvent tenant test. When his Noble Friend's Bill came on he should be ready to discuss the de tails of it; " but I will not permit myself" (addressing the Government benches), "to be diverted from the consideration of the deformities of your measure by being drawn into a discussion upon the clauses of my Noble Friend's. " ( Loud cheers.) The introduction of that Bill was the main argument upon which this measure was made to rest.— Not one word had they heard from Ministers in def ence o f this measure.—(H ear , hear.) They had not said one word to convince them that they were consulting the real interests of the people ; they had not said a word to prove that the mea sure would be for the social welfare of Ireland. The single argument which they brought forward as a justification of this measure was, that his Noble Friend had brought forward some other measure for the amendment of the registration. Now, in order that he might not be misconstrued, he would say at once that he admitted the evils which were so generally complained of arising out of the uncertainty of the franchise, and the necessity that there was for adopting some mode of de fining and determining it. He admitted, too, that these evils _ Upon that occasion he said that, hating forwarded the Reform Bill, he telt himself bound, by the engagements then entered into, and that although the people were not precluded from requiring a reconstruction of the representation—( Hear, hear) —yet he would be ' guilty of a breach of faith and honour towards those with whom he thus acted, if he coulteaeneed such demands. Ho quoted that for the purpose of de.nonstrating, that, although it might be competent for Parliament to revoke and repeal a solemn act like the Reform Bill, although there was no written p edge given, yet there might be circumstances in which public men, having engaged the consent of large masses of the people, having made con cessions on one side and compromises on the other—there might be circumstances wherein, for the public interests, it:was necessary to adhere to the promises and the declarations then made. Now, what were the circumstances under which be brought forward the Emancipation Bill. History was now asserting its rights, and it was hardly necessary for him to preserve that delicacy which must be main taened by , a Minister of the Crown on recent events. It was perfectly well known that in bringing that Bill forward they had to contend with the scruples of the Sovereign. It was brought forward in 18'29, and in the preceding year the House of Lords, by a majority of 44, refused to entertain the question of relief" at alt. He brought forward that measure, and it was perfectly well un iersrool that before it passed the constituent holy in Ireland should, if possible, be made inde pendent—that the 40s. freeholders should be abolielied, and a 101. franchise substituted. He had no doubt it was upon the faith of that condition that the Bill received the assent of many —it was upon that assurance that many gave it a re luctant assent. The Noble Secretary for the Colon'es would not deny that, fir, only a few nights ago, he admitted that that for me d part o f t h e coetract. E ven t h e Noble Secre tary fe. Ireland acted upon a different impression from that vrhieli actuated him now. Ile refused leave even to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin to bring in a Bill for the altee ration of the franchise ; he rested his refused upon the double ground that the measure then proposed was a measure that would subvert the settlement made by the passing of the Catho lic Relief Bill of 1829, and that made by the Reform Bill in 1832. Now he had s a id l ast year , an d w i t h per f ect s i ncer it y , th a t h e was for the fulfilment, in the spirit in which it was brought for ward, of the Reform Bill. He adhered to that declaration, and he thought they were bound to say that the spirit in which it was brought forward should be fulfilled on each side, and that the conditions attached to it should be performed. So far from wishing to restrict the bona fide !Franchise in Ireland by any measure of reg i s t ra ti on , h e c onfess he should .see with great pain (he was sure his Noble Friend entertained the same sentiments), any great diminution of the franchise in Ireland inconsistent with the spirit either of the Relief or the Reform Bill. He should suspend his judgment until he saw the evi dence. He should know the extent to which it prevailed— first he should learn the fact ascertained, next the extent, and next the causes that had led to it. He should see whether it was attributable to the reluctance of the lands°• d to grant leases, or whether it did not arise from the until ingness of the unfortu nate freeholder to be placed in such a position between his landlord and his priest.—(Hear. ) He must know all these things before he could form his prds;ment - as to whether the remedy was'necessary ; and, above all, before he framed a judg ment of the nature of the remedy to be applied. Ho should inquire whether the restriction of the franchise arose from the unwillingness or refusal of the landlord to grant taxes, and if that were to be the plan, there was no remedy whatever. The new franchise in counties depended on the grant of leases, and it might be defeated by the refusal of the landlord. How could he decide upon so important a question, and advise a remedy for the evil alleged to exist, when, for aught he knew, that remedy might be perfectly insufficient ?—( Hear. ) He had said it was made a condition for the Relief Bill that the 40s. freeholders should be abolished. Their object was to establish, if possible, an independent cons' ituency in Ireland— a constituency not independent merely of their landlords, but their intention was to establish, if possible, a constituency that should be free from the influence of the, priest as well as the undue and unjust influence of the land'ord. —(Cheers.) Had they abolished the 40s. freeholder on wanton and arbi trary grounds—was it a mere sacrifice to the caprice of any party that required it? Why there was the most irrefragable proof from the Roman Catholics themselves, that they were a curse to Ireland.—(Renewed cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman denied that he had given such evidence. Let him look at pages 163, 165, and 167 of the Lords' Report.—(Hear, hear.) It was upon the evidence of Roman Catholics that they had abolished the 40s. freeholders The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in his evidence, had made a reservation in favour of fee-simple freeholders. It was quite true he had, but he (Sir R. Peel) would like to know how many bona fide fee-simple 40s. freeholders there were then ex isting? The Hon. and Learned Member's language was, " The system of 40s. freeholders in Ireland was essentially different from that in England. There were, however, some who had a fee-simple estate, and these nobody would meddle with. As re garded those who had a derivative interest there was an immense accumulation of perjury from the mu.tiplicity of oaths, and they were part of the Lye stock of the estate."—(Cheers. ) He was asked, " Do you think you would avoid the evil of paying by raising the franchise ?"—and his answer was, " I do."—( Cheers.) " . .A man who had the 10/. franchise would be known among his neighbours ; he would have a character to preserve." "Do you think the raising of the qualification would be productive of great benefit to Ireland ?" —" I think it would."--( Cheers.) '' In my humble judg ment, it would be no small benefit, if we got rid of any por tion of the perjury, and it is the commencement of what we want much in Ireland, a substantial yeomanry."—(Loud cheers.) Now, let the Hon. and Learned Member account for the evi dence and the denial.—(Renewed cheers.) Yes, it was the evidence of the Hon. and Learned Member, and of the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary—they were the men who had sacrificed the 40s. freeholders.—( Loud cheers.) They had given the evidence that had tended to convince the public mind that, as it existed the franchise was a mockery of in dependence. One instance was given when a gentleman had made 2,000 electors in his estate in Tipperary. The Hon. and Learned Member now argued that, because parties w- re poor, they were not the less entitled to the franchise, and that it was an insult to Ireland to withhold the franchise from ',the poor. That was the Gentleman who held that language in the year 1825, " There were heart-rending scenes following elections, and after all political feelings, it was difficult to reconcile on: - self to those miseries." H. (Mr. O'Connell) was asked the following question :—" Did not that system give a direct pre mium to mismanagement ?" Answer, "It certainly did,land there were - Complaints made even to - the clergy of wretches being compelled to swear that they were forty shilling freeholders when they could not conscientiously have given that oath." if he (Sir R. Peel) supported in a liberal spirit, and not in the mere letter, the constituency which it then was intended to establish—if he asked the ten pound freehold to be constituted as it teas by the Emancipation Act, be was to be told that that was an insult to Ireland. Because he would not add to the system which was proved in the year 1825 to have exhibited "heart rending scenes—to ruin the freeholder who voted against his landlord—to expose wretches to perjury, or swearing that they were forty shilling freeholders when they really were not"—he was told that he insulted the people of Ireland. Did he insult them when he sought to establish that " respectable yeomanry" which had been men tioned. He (Sir R. Peel) wanted to show Hon. Members tkat the sacrifice of the 40s. freeholders was not an arbitrary act of theirs—that the abolition of that system was for the social welfare of Ireland as s h own f rom th e ev id e nce that th e y h a d read, and that they should not now turned upon with a motion f.r the re-establishment of the 40s. freeholders ; that it should not now be said that they intended to injure and insult Ireland, when they only desired to adhere to the compact which had been made—when they wished to prevent that mockery of independence which the 4Us. freeholders exhibited.—(Opposi tion cheers.) He would take the evidence of a Roman Catholic priest, the Rev. Mr. Tighe ; and that clergyman was asked what would be the effect ot making a 101. freehold as the basis of the franchise ? He replied that he thought it would establish an order of freeholders that, in his opinion, from their intelli gence, would go as moral agents to vote.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The majority of that House—such was the effusion into it—did not well remember the 40s. freehold system. They who were some twenty years in Parliament understood that system. He would give a detail of it to those who did not understand the system. He took it from high authority—from the evidence of county Members, who were not prejudiced in f avour o f t h e C onservat i ve i nterest , as was made clear by Her Majesty's Government—the evidence which he would quote was that of Mr. Dominick Browne, the then Member for Mayo. Here then was a short detail of the 40s. freehold system. That Gentleman said, " Suppose a farm of 100 acres was to be let out, it would be subdivided into 20 or 25 portions—it would be let at a greater rent than the grazier could afford for it, and those persons who occupied the land would register as 40s. freeholders out of these separate holdings, for which they paid a rack rent. He knew upwards of sixty persons on onelease who were joint tenants, and paid a rent of 70/. a year, which he believed to be a rack rent, and every one of them registered." Sixty persons paying a rack rent of 701. a year, and each person registering as a 40s. freeholder 1 The gentleman before quoted (Mr. Browne) knew a place where sixty-six persons were Beim]. upon Bishop's land, which in Ireland did no t crea t e a f ree h o ld.' The object of the landlord was to create a frcehoid for the men living on the Bishop's land, and for that purpose he let them a .barren mountain—part of his estate—at 121. a . year in a joint tenantcy, and every one of 'these sixty-six registered. He also knew of a good num- 1 ber of tenants who had taken leases in 1814, when land ' was exceedingly dear. These persons had been two years re gistered as 40s. freeholders by virtue of their leases ; they received a reduction from their landlords of 50 per cent. to enable them to vote ; but rill he thought the landlord was entitled to enforce the whole rent. But there were further details of the manner in which the landlords secured the dependence of the voter. ' The landlord attached to a small piece of land a 40s. freehold, which freehold, by the operation of the control that he had over the tenant, he secured to himself, and, in doing so secured the dependence of the 40s. freeholder. Now, it was upon such grounds as these—it was to prevent such abuses, and not merely for the purpose of conciliating the Roman Ca tholics, but of doing that which would contribute to the social improvement of Ireland, that they brought forward the measure which was new so much complained of. Did the Noble Lord opposite (Morpeth) consider whether the fran chise which he would now introduce would be li a ble t o j us t the same perversion to which the 40s, freehold system was? Let them put aside, for a short time, all undue influence of party, and inquire whether the franchise proposed may not be perverted to the worst purposes, a n d t o o b struct t h e progress in Ireland of soc i al improvement.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord p r oposed that every landlo r d m i g ht qualify a householder to vote , by giving him a l ease Now t was admitt e d t h ere was great nlreland; a great d es i re to command poli tical land or tenements to be rated at N. provid e d h e h a d h e ld i t the means of vot es . Th e o bj ection to his Noble Friend's Bill was , that it would operate as a restric tion boast of the Nobl e L or d' s Bill was, o politicalv r influencefo r e t x e c e n years. e nti: i through ; the franchise. Could h e (Si r R . Peel) conclusive d proof that there was i n I re l an d a natu htthiaotn,teiat % of more the elf would a e n x c t h e i n se natu ral tli.position by the use of land to increase political influence. Now where would be the difficulty of procuring that influence which the 40s. freeholds gave by means of the N o bl e L or d' s Bill ? By means of the Noble Lord's Bill any man wh o c h ose to di v id e his estate might qualify a certain number of persons and secure their dependence actually by the same means as secured the dependence of the 40s. freeholders. There might be a house and a vote attached to it more valuable than the House itself. The lease need be of no value.—(Cheers.) Let Ho n . Gen tlemen observe the influence operating upo n th e l an dl or d s ; t h e double influence f r g e a p i o n rt of and political powe r ; b ecause it c l ear l y appeared their own C omm i ss i oners t h at sma ll froin the o holdings let at much higher rents than large ones,andthat there was greater competition for a small of quantity of land than far a large quantity. There was evidence that the rent paid yet in the county of Armagh, when it came to the test of value by the rate, was rated at a quarter or one-fifth that being paid. This, then, was a great inducement to divide property into small holdings, the lendlord gaining a great increase; but superadded to that., was another motive—that of political influence. Now, who were the parties who acquired political power by the old system of 40.. freeholders ?—The Right Hon. Baronet then quoted the evidence of Mr. Justice Day, as to the effect of the 40s. freehold suffrage, but no more of the quotation reached us than that it was " a sort of uni versal suffrage.") Mr. Dominick Browne was asked if it was not the custom for attorneys to buy small estates— (Cheers)—and the answer was, " Yes, it is a very common custom." Another was asked whether men did not gain con sideration and influence with the Grand Juries by making 40s. freeholders, and he said " Yes." Another . said it was a recommendation - to the Magistrates to make them. So they would see that under the 40s. freehold system there was great temptation to abuse. Now, he wished to know if were aggravated by the unfortunate differences which existed in Ireland upon the subject. With whom the blame of that difference rested he would not inquire ; but he was bound to respect the motives of the Judicial Bench. It was perfectly unjust, however, to object to the Bill of the Noble Lord be cause he had not suggested a satisfactory mode of defining the franchise. It was not just to say, You shall not cure the ad mitted evils until Parliament can agree to a definition of the franchise. Still more monstrous and unjust was it to say, We will not allow you to cure the imperfections of the Irish registration unles you consent to subvert the Reform Act.—( Cheers.) The lion. Member for the Queen's county had said yesterday that nothing could be more disgusting and demoralizing than the present system of Irish registration, and those evils were admitted, and yet five years were suffered to elapse without the proposal of a re medy. The Member for Carlow had stated that night that the most imperfect and absurd definition of the fi anchise was that adopted in the boroughs. Last year, said the Hon. Baronet, addressing the Ministerial benches, a motion was made on your own side of the House, that there should be an instruc tion to the Committee before they proceeded with the Bill, to define the franchise. Who opposed that? The Noble Lord and lion Gentlemen opposite. They divided against that in struction, and thus decided upon this ground, that the matter required serious comideration, that they had not sufficient evi dence, that they were not in a condition to define the franchise. Now, he would ask, iu what better condition were they then ? What had been the result of their subsequent deliberation? By the Bill they made a complete revolution in the franchise. It destroyed the freehold franchise altogether. It was not only imperfect, but it abolished altogether the test of profit de rivable from the freehold. It would work a complete subver.• sion of the franchise. It was a franchise wove than that of scot and lot. It was more extensive than the household suffrage, and, he would ask, was that consistent with the en gagements entered into at the time of the Catholic Relief Act ? It was true that there was no written engagement entered into at the time. If that Bill was passed without the slightest negotiation with the Roman Catholic party,no compact precluded them from agitating any question of redress which they thought proper. But a compact was entered into' that had all the force of a public engagement, although that com pact was not reduced to writing or embodied in Act of Par liament ; yet the Noble Secretary for the Colonies would not deny that there were compacts made which bound public men, and which Legislatures ought to re spect if they hoped t o ga i n confidence in their decisions. Tie . declarations of L ee d s Althoryt aril Grey, When the Reform Bill was under discussion; had already been quoted. He would therefore pass on to what fell from the Hon. Secretary for the Colonies in 1837. the proposed system was not liable to the same temptations? th e H ouse o f P eers, h a d stated that by making these_ ..- the . Would it be just if, for instance, in the case of the landowner grounds of concession—by giving the- fear of civil war as the neglecting the general improvement of Ireland, he chose to ground of making the ground o f concess i on—they did give sacrifice hi s estate for the purpose of making votes ? great encouragement at all future times to men i n I re l an d to Was it fair th a t po li t i ca l i n fl uence s h ou ld b e attac h e d to suc h form combinations and associations dangerous to the country, improper and corrupt use of land? —(Cheers.) It would be in order to obtain any ulterior objects they might have in view. SO at first. A Alan would make freeholds, who found by so That was the statement of the Noble Lord, who differed doing he could exercise great power in the country. This from him entirely in politics, respecting the support which measure had a tendency in an evil direction—namely, to the the then Government had given the agitators by conceding the subdivision of the land, and to arrest the progress of improve- Catholic claims on those grounds. That had been said, not with ment. He spoke not merely of the moral evil of it, of the respect to her Majesty's present Government, but with respect unjust influence they were conferring upon attorneys and to the Tory Government, one of the chief members of grand juries.—(Hear, hear.) 'He looked to the effect in which now taunted him, with giving encouragement to agita another direction. He asked whether they thought they tion and concession. —(Loud cheering.) He would, however, were advancing the social improvement of Ireland, by giving do the Government of that • day the justice to say that what a new stimulus to the subdivision of land ? He asked them to they didive at that time, they gave it f ran kl y an d can didl y.— read the R e p or t o f t h e i r own C ommissioners before they de- (Cheers.) With respect to the measure for disfranchising the termined upon the subdivision of the land. They had the Re- 40s. freeholder, to which the Right Hon. Baronet alluded, he port of the Commissioners on the subject of the Poor-laws, (Lord J. R usse ll) h a d a l ways f e l t t h e strongest repugnance to who had a d v i se d t h em not the plan. The Government that measure, and he remembered that at that time the pre sent over Mr. Nicholls, and had such confidence in his judg- sent Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (Lord Ebrington) and him ment that they overruled the recommendation of the Commis- self came up to town together for the purpose of opposing sioner, and determined to act on his recommendation. Now it.. But in proposing the change from the 40s. franchise to What evidence did Mr. Nicholls give upon the subject? He the 101. the manner in which that measure was to be carried begged the Noble Lord's attentio n to it. Could he deny the into effect. had been stated in the way most likely to conciliate tendency of this measure to stimulate the subdivision the support of the friends of popular privileges. of land for the purpose of increasing votes ? If The person who claimed it was to go before the Assistant not, let 'him see what would be the results. Mr. Barrister, he was there to claim in reap et of the 101., and if Nicholls said, " Small holdings and minute subdivision of the Assistant-Banister admitted him, he became, for eight land prevailed in the county of Donegal to a greater extent years, possessed of the franchise, but he was rejected if the than in any other part, and the consequent growth of the popu- I3atrister thought he had not made out his claim, but then latiun was so great as to diminish the productive power of the there was an appeal, for the party might .go before soil, and the condition of the people to the lowest point in the a Jury as to facts, and before a. Judge as to the law. social scale, exposing them in the contingency of a bad season, and if he succeeded, he remained eight ears. What was or the failure of the potatoe crop., to the most dr ea df u l pr ii vat i on. " proposed now? He begged the House to recollect that it was No material or lasting improvement of the land could take proposed to take away that power, it was proposed to tax the place while such a system of sub-division existed ; and there voter by continually harrassing him ;it was proposed, instead was no check to the division, except the dread or the actual oc- of granting him the franchise for eight years, that he should currence of famine. Under the present system the possession not have it for three months, and that he should be obliged to of land was not the means of advancing , the individual, but of go to the registry every year. He was now answering the degrading the whole population." Such were the words of charge of a breach of - faith—if there was any breach of faith, it Mr. Nicholls.—(Hear, hear.) But with all those facts before was in the proposal of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers.) By modes them, Ministers were superadding to th e ga i n of the landlords of this kind they might most effectually destroy a franchise. by the small division of land, the additional temptation of —( Cheers. ) The Attorney-General had told them some political influence.—(Hear, hear.) He had attempted to time ago that with regard to the Court of Chancery, no man show that this extension of the franchise—this creation of could go into that Court, unless the subject of dispute exceeded something worse than the forty-shilling freeholders, was not 100/. Now he would suppose that a man had a claim for 101. ; compatible with a fair interpretation of the compact if he was told that he must go into the Court of Chancery to entered into upon the Emancipation of the Roman Catholics, obtain it, he would be deprived of his rghts, and that was what and not compatible with the social improvement of Ireland.— was proposed by the Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for ( Hear, hear.) He would now ask, whether if this extension Lancashire. It was the bringing in of the Noble Lord's Bill of the franchise were granted to Ireland they would refuse the t h at made it necessary for him to go into the whole application of the same principle to E ng l an d e—( Cheers.) Let case, and when he proposed to do that, as he the Ministers suppose, that when the same demands were made • thought he was bound to do in faith to the upon them in this country, the party opposed to the Govern- people of Ireland, he thought he was bound to give them as ment had coalesced with the Chartists, and had said—" The good a franchise as was intended for them in IS29.—(Cheers. ) horizon is clouded, and you had better purchase peace by con- That was a proposal made to a people that were disturbed, and cession."—(Cheers.) But they did not say so. Aided by he would not take it away from a people that were in tran them (the Conservatives) the Minist ers h a d b een a bl e to resist quillity.—(Hear, hear. ): 'That was a franchise granted to those the • Chartists so long as they s a id th a t th e R e - who agitated and threatened, and lie would not take it away form Bill was final. (Cheers.) When they from men wto were loyal and obedient.—( Cheers. ) He was made such concessions in Ireland as this, upon such evidence, speaking now of the proposal that was made by the Noble Lord and with such motives, would they be able to resist the demand on the other side of the House, and he affirmed that when the that would be made for the extension of similar institutions to Noble Lord proposed that Bill the people of Ireland were in a England ?—( Cheers.) If it were right that without any alle- state of tranquillity ; they were making progress in peace and gation the franchise in the towns in Ireland should be reduced prosperity; their prosperity was increasing, and the from ten pounds to five, would they be able to say to those who whole cause which had created the tation was the demanded a similar reduction in England, would th e y be introduction of th a t Bill.—(L ou d cheers If, therefore, able to say that Earl Grey and Lord Althorp had declared the that was a Bill to take away the franchise, and to destroy it, he Reform Bill to be a final settlement, and that it was darige - must consider the whol e ques ti on . Th e Government had en rous to disturb it. The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for deavoured last year to see if some Bill could not be introduced Kilkenny, had been indiscreet enough to say that he was in to regulate the franchise, and for doing that they were told Enfavour of the Bill because it would lead to an exte ns i on i n they were defending fraud and perjury, a n d b ecause th e y did gland-- . not choose to enter upon the subject in the way the Noble Mr. HUME—No, Sir, I did not, Lord proposed, they were told that they were promoting per- Sir ROBERT PEEL—The Honourable Gentleman jury. Last night they were told they were defending fraud 'had said, however, that if the definition of the franchise was and perjury. With regard to all questions of this kind upon necessary, why was it not settled in England ?—( Hear, which the present Government held different opinions from the hear.) The Noble Lord, the Secretary fur the Colonies, other side of the House, it was expected, and it was found said that in the present state of parties in England, it in many instances impossible to carry their views into was impossible to define the franchise more exactly than effect, and that being the case it was thought better to wait it stood expressed in the Reform Bill. Yet the Noble some time and proceed with other measures upon which party Lord preceeded with a Bill to amend the registration violence would net be excited. There were questions of great but his Noble Friend, the Member for North Lancashire, was interest regarding the administration of the laws, with respect loaded with every species of calumny because he advanced a to the poor, the administration of justice, and the commercial Registration Bill, without defining the franchise.—(Cheers.) interests of the country—all these questions might be discussed The Noble Lord (John Russell) had placed the finality of the without party feeling, and the more exciting , party question it Irish Reform Bill—and he did not speak of technical finality, was determined should be left to time. 'I he present Govern but of the principle—on the same ground as i n the E ng li s h an d ment had been 'continually reproached with not bringing for- Scotch Bills ; yet on such allegationews were made in support ward measures which they thought right for the extension of of the Bill now before the House, the Noble Lord was pre- popular rights, and it was said that they were losing pared not only to disturb but to destroy th e s y s t em established greund by such conduct. Hi s answer to that was that it in Ireland by the Reform Bill. He hoped the Noble Lord would was thought better to proceed practically with mea be prepared to-night to make a declare ion of his intentions. sures that were of some service, and leave others He, for one—not from any party considerations—but with ato time. In a party point of view, that was an inexpedient view to the peace and tranquillity of those countries, knowing course, but, with a view to the interests of the country, be the demands which would soon be made upon the Noble Lord thought it was a prudent course. But could they pursue it when that precedent would have been established, he did regret longer ? Were they to be accused, day after day, and night the course which the Noble Lord, as a Minister of the Crown, after night, of attempting to screen perjury and fraud, and not had thought proper to persue.—( Loud . cheers from to declare what their opinions were, by introducing measures the Opposition benches.) He had understood from the on the subject? They were then obliged to look Noble Lord that he had meant steadily to adhere to the into the franchise, and to - endeavour to legislate upon it. principles of the Reform Act—that on the minor de- He had been convinced by the statements made last year by tails he might consent to improvement to remove restrictions the Hon. Member for Mallow, that they never could obtain a and vexatious accompaniments on the claim to the franchise ; satisfactory criterion of the franchise, unless they sought for it but he had understood from the Noble Lord that he taught that out of the averment and assertions of the parties themselves. a constantly recurring agitation as to the principles of repro- It was evident if they took the more liberal and extended view, sentation was fraught with perils and with evils to the country, he did not of course mean to give any opinion as to the legal —(Cheers.) He recollected that the Noble Lord had made view of this question, but if they took the more liberal and ex that declaration, and had reprinted it in the letter which he tended view, it was obvious that the man who could loose addressed to the electors of Stroud. The Noble Lord might nothing by gaining a franchise, who was subject to no burthen, have reason for holding a different opinion now. The and who had a very small amount of property, might Noble Lord might have found it necessary for the , et have witnessses who might assist him in putting purpose of conciliating lukewarm supporters—( Hear, yet have witnessses who might assist him in putting purpoe of conciliating lukewarm supporters_( Hear, is claim upon the register, and no other consequence follow hear, hear)—and propping up a falling power to pursue from it than that if he succeeded he would be entitled to vote, the course he had adopted; but if in the hope of gaining the and if he did not succeed he would not be entitled.—( Hear, acsession of those who were unsatisfied with the declarations of hear.) The criterion which they proposed tn take, and which, 1837, and to demand from the Noble Lord, if not an. actual upon t en from seemed to him the best, was some criterion to performance, at least an indefinite promise, as to the progress be taken from the Poor-rate. Last year he had consulted of Referm, the Noble Lord did not fteadily refuse to encou- a high authority upon this subject. That gentleman, Mr. rage all change, he _Sir R. Peel) trusted he would resolve Nicholls, had told him at once that he thought it very desirable on refusing it now. ut he was afraid the power of the Noble that the Poor-rate should be taken as a criterion, and he re- Lord to refuse it would be weakened by the precedent ceived a letter from Inn dated 24th Aug ,in which he said that he had established. ( Hear, hear, hear, and eheers.) upon reflection he had been stilrmore confirmed in that opinion. In the year 1834, the Noble Lord was party to a declaration, lie was very strongly in favour of adopting the Poor-law by which he discountenanced, in the most formal manner, any valuation as a critenon of the elective franchise. Well, then, effort to obtain a repeal of the Legislative Union. In - the Lking that criterion, they proposed to take with it a certain year !SU, the Noble Lord was a party to placing in the mouth tenure by lease—a tenure greater than that of the old 40s. of his Sovereign, this emphatic consideration of the mischievous freeholds, because those freeholds had often depended uon agitation of a repeal of the Union. The King said, in his sp eec h t o p the lives of v er y o ld p eop l e . Th sed ey t proposed to takevalue a term of Parliament, " I have seen, with feelings of deep regret an d j us t , fourteen years, and they proposed inditeation the - continuance of an attempt to excite the people of 5/. They took that rating of the value of 5/. because they , of Ireland to demand a • Repeal of the Legislative Union. To found from all the authorities that the general custom was to the practices which have been used to produce disaffection in undervalue. They found by the Reports submitted to the the State, and mutual distrust and animosity . between the two House that many of the present freeholders who had then the countries, are chiefly to be attributed the spirit of insuberdina- right of voting would be disfranchised by the measure tion, which though for the present controlled by the powers of of his Noble Friend. There were several unions met tinned the law, has been but too perceptible in many instances." That I in which persons who at present had the right ef voting with the was the language addressed in the year 1e34 to the agitators present 101. franchise would be deprived of that right under the for repeal. In the year 1837, at the period when the Noble proposed system. He thought it essential to have a tenure, Lord addressed his letter to his constituents at Stroud, this and also to have a rate ; because when they had the tenure was the language which he addressed to the eager advocates they kept the principle of the county franchise, and w h en they for an extended franchise. He said—" That after this sates they the rating, notwithstanding all that had been stated on ration, any Member of Lord Grey's Cabinet was to propose to that subject, they had a property liable to a burthen. The begin the whole question anew, the obvious remarks would be, Noble Lord in the course of his speech at the commencement you have either so egregiously deceived us, that we cannot trust of that discussion, had shown a great many things, and he to your public engagements, or you have so blindly deceived had certainly shown a great many con(radictory things.— yourselves that we cannot believe in the solidity of your as- (Cries of " Hear, hear.' ) At one time he showed that surances." The Noble Lord said—" The excitement of new there would be a class of persons in the most miserable changes, passions again rising, the House of Commons again state of wretchedness ; but at another time he showed in a furnace to be melted in a new mould, and the people again that they would be possessed of four or five acres of land, very in a temper which burst out in flames at Nottingham and good clothes, and also very good food.—( Hear, hear.) Of Bristol, would go far to shake the stabi'ity of pro- course with respect to the amount of 5/., and with respect to pertv, and make the law the servant of popular the duration of fourteen . years, those were matters to be dis passions ; the happy consummation of the wishes of cussed and decided upon in Committee.—( Hear, hear.) The the labouring classes would be again removed far off; question, then, to be considered was, whether in settling this and the security to be enjoyed in Switzerland and in Ger matter of the future registration of Ireland, the franchise many would remove capital from this country, and transport should be based upon the present definition, or upon some new it there. The deluded might then be roused from their dream, criterion.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) With regard to the but too late." These were manly sentiments.—( Loud cheers.) resent criterion, he certainly was a good deal surprised when The very delivery of which, from a place of high authority, present heard the arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for gave streugth to the person from whose lips they proceeded. Exeter. 'lle proposition of that. Hon. Member was that they The Noble Lord might have since found the new pressure upon should keep a criterion which was in itself doubtful, and upon him to be such that he could not maintain his adherence to those manly declarations. The Noble Lord might h are re- which contrary opinio ns h a d b een h e ld b y persons o f very great that eminence, some g i v i ng so l ax an interpretation, persons ceived significant hints at the commenceme n t o f thi s S ess i on entitled to the not at a who, he must sa y, a p peare d to hi m to be ll that the foreign policy of the Government did n o t. meet w i t h the cordial approbation of his supporters.—(H ear , h ear. ) franchise had obt a i ne d it ; ot h ers g i v i ng so str i ct an i nterpre• tation, that in one union, out of one hundred and thirty The Noble Lord might have found it necessary to use less strong claimants four only were allowed to vote.—(Hear, hear. ) language in denouncing the effort to promote a repeal by agi- Why, this was an immense political question—( Hear, hear) tation. He (sir R. P. ) regretted it—he deeply regretted it— _and how did the N o bl e L or d th e M em b er f or N or th Lan found in the return from Sarre —he mht have found a stool for the interests of the country. Th e N o bl e L or d m i g ht h ave cashire propose to solve it ? He did no t p ro p ose t o so lve it at a ll, indication that the confidence of y this country was lost, and he but he left it to the de c i s i on o f t h e J u d ges . Why, that would g em loss of confidence by renewing the alliance w ith th ose i n that might have found it necessary to s ee k compensa ti on f or t h a t be to leave the matter i n d ou bt. " No, ' said the Hon. M bet for Exeter, " you don't leave the matter in doubt, because House who before appeared ready to withhold from him their you are aware there is a majority of Judges en one side, and a support. He might purchase, by concessi o n o n th a t p o i n t, a minority on the other, and the minority ought to submit to the oin ons the majori• T. " Wh hear a y o temporary support ; but he (Sir R. Peel) cou ld no t h e lp establish of the franchise ?--( Hearoever dof , hear.) Insuch way the firs t t thinking, when he called to mind the declarations of 1834 and place, it was a very great evil that the Judges 1837, that it would abate something of the feeling of satisfaction with which he contemplated his temporary should have to decide upon matters which were strictly connected with politics; but it would be a much greater evil triumph over the pressure of the hour—th a t he should a b ate for the Judges to control the authority of that House.—( Hear, something of the satisfaction with which he might reflect on the small majority which he might call to his aid that hear.) It would also give rise to imputations upon the Judges night.—( Hear, hear.) It would he thought cast a gloom over that then used their influence to obtain a majority for th e i r the festivity with which perhaps he might celebrate the new own party.--( Hear, hear.) He could not con c eive an y thi ng more mischievous than that Judges should he forced t o swerve compact and alliance, if the reflection did cross him that lie fro?' the course of duty their co nsc i ences di c t a t e d, b ecause o f had gained that support by receding from the position which reneetions thrown out against them in that House.—(Hear.) enabled him to arrest the progress of democratic claims by ob- The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as was to be expected structing the progress of social improvement in Ireland, by exciting hopes in that country, by raising passions and creat- from him, spoke in ver y measure d l anguage, but what were ing expectations which the Noble Lord could not reali s e w ith- the comments made upon hi s wor d s b y some o f t h e pu b lic or cut peril, aed which he could not gratify without being the gaga of the party opposite. He had read some that day, fomt ntor of convulsion. (The Right H on . B aronet resumed wherein the Judges in the mino r ity were ca ll e d t h e " O'Con his sert amidst loud and long continued cheering.) sell Judges"—" Judicial minority against the law"— Lord JOHN RUSSELL was ready to meet the objections, " that men were raised to the B enc h i n I re l an d the accusations, and the warning s o f th e Ri g h t H on. G entle- for no other distinction than that for years they had been p man—( Loud cheers)--and in order to do so it wou ld b e neces - Popish olitical partisans," &c. Now, was thi s th e way i n sary for him to recal the atte n ti on o f th e H onse to t h e per i o d which they were to leave the law? Was thi s th e way in which such men as Chief Baron and Baron Richards—men of to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded, to the year high reputation and of great learning, were to be spoken of.— Right 1829, to show the House the circumstances under which the , were they to have their good name taken away, and Justice Honourable Baronet formed the compact, which were degraded in their persons, in order that they (the Opposition) compact he admitted had been made, and to declare to the degraded get a decision in their fa v o ur on th e great po li t i- For that purpose it would not be necessary for him to do, whaHouse his reasons for the fulfilment of it.—(Loud cheers.) cal question o f th e f ranc hi se ?-_(L ou d c h eers. ) I f they t the Right Hon. Baronet had thought proper to do, to refer to chose to tak e awa y th e f ranc hi se, Id t t h em take i t if communications which had passed between his Sovereign and they would or could, b u t d o no t l et t h em use t h e b a l ance o f himself; it would be only necessary for him to refer to public Justice for that pu r pose.—(L ou d c h eers. ) Th ese were the and notorious facts, and to place himself on that ground.— reasons why he thought it necessary i n th e presen t state of (Hear, hear.) Engagements had then made to those who those affairs, the Noble Lord o pp os it e h av i ng persua d e d a ma felt scruples, prejudices, and fears, which scruples, prejudices, lority of the House to re a d hi s Bill a secon d t i me in the last session—these were the reaso ns w hy h e th ou ght it neeessafy , and fears, he had, however, always considered to be unfounded. that the whole question sh ou ld b e cons id er ed, and wheeb .as to the admission of the Roman Catholics to power. It w as right to keep the engagements then entered into with them, thought the Bill of his Noble Friend was founded i fr it o e n Tl t T l Y , and justice.—(Loud cheers.) It would free but, at the same time, the engagements entered into with the people of Ireland ought not to be wantonly violated, which the difficulties of the franchise—amend the present state the bench. Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had attempted the law, and let it be administered without disparaging i d t b Hon. Baro iem of the to do. The circumstances were these :—for a long time the—(Cheers.) But then he was told by net, that if it should be found to be the fac t lig that the Catholic Question had been matter of debate ; men of the tuent body was very much diminished—that if the landlords consti highest talent had taken part in it in that House on both sides, deprive their tenants t° henit would be re but with regard to Ireland so strong had the conflict of opinien used their power in such a manner as of their votes, then a time would c ome he w ar.) But how Fong become on the subject that at length in that country no such ilear had been had to the re thing as Government existed.—(Cheers.) The other day he were they to wait ? Much reference per to consider the question.—( had been reading a statement of what had passed in the House of Lords at the time on the occasion of the appointment of a returns vet, because they had not been ' - laid on turns for 1840. He held in lic h e ands certainly not official Secretary for Ireland. One of the Ministers of the Crown had stated that the appointment of the Chief Secretary for correct; and if so, already . a very large diminution had taken the table ; but he believed they would be found Ireland had been given away without his knowledge and with out consulting him on the subject. The person so appointed new 0 ,462.—( Cheers ) place. The returns for Tippet , a t, r Bs y w f .as or I t' v B- a d t O e r g . _f a , : d e , t h l e , number 6s; . now .of. the constituency at 4,143. 3 1 . was the present Lord Glenelg, and it was obviotply now keeping an appointment made for the purpose of 7C °8. 4 1 .‘, i 1 n Vi 1 e 8 kr0;, 5 :2 7 , 3 3 9 4 0; ; now . 1,550. Longford, 1,971 ; now it hadthese five diminution up that balance of opinion in Ireland which ~ 949. Making alt ogether in counties a These . results were got from statements been their policy to keep up. The circumstances of ' B76 th i e o 9 1tu ti s . e which would soon be l upon that time appeared most alarming. Any one who would . made in from 15 . read an Act of that time would see that there was a vast Association the table, but besides that wasthefact that there was a id gro g in existence enacting laws for its own government, baying a ,unwillingness among the landlords li of Ireland to grant such treasury of its own,- over which it possessed control , g ivin g " d i : leases to their tenants, aswou t enable them to obtain the rections to its own executive, which directions were obeyed, franchise ;that was a . sufficient. cause for a great diminution. d by vast all these facts thewere holding large meetings, having processions, attended by these Yet in the face of told that they might . become numbers, who marched, preceded by their banners. All . wait until the evil hail stilly greater, and then would were circumstances calculated to excite the greatest a l arm. be be the time to consider the question. They might wait The statement of the Duke of Wellington in the debate on ° such a indeed until men were disgusteti with the proper exercise of Catholic Question was, that their meetings existed in ef die a. political power. Hon. Gentlemen on the other side had been manner, although they did not present any features the mi liAd shocked at hundreds of persons not having a qualification lity, yet they were of so formidable a nature that they g the g 71., yet obtaining the 10/. franchise. Now, he con s under which to a civil war. Such was the circumstances tossed he was not so shocked as wasrefolded the other (t ee the rey,eal of the - pon Government of the day had propose side. What he wanted to see was, the people come to the Catholic disabilities. He had always thought poll, and look to the legitimate exercise of their political power was, most just gument for the granting of thee. measure e e that could be as a privilege and a right. If the Bill of the Noble Lordpassed, as it was ' in itself, the most unfortunate landlords might prevent their tenants from registering, but adopted. He would on that subject repeat the statement would they give up politics ? N o . It wou ld d r i v e them into made by a Noble Lord at that time, whose statements were Lord Man fi Id always worthy of the greatest attention.s e ,in combhation.s.wit would teach them to expect that by means of 1% ,o4X MORNING EDITION terror and alarm they might obtainthat enfranchisement which had been taken away when nothing but sound justice and good policy demanded its extension. At that late hour of the night he should not go into other matters with respect to the Irish franchise, on which they had heard so much in the course of the debate, but that the Right Hon. Gentleman as well as. others had made appeals to him as to his opinions upon two. most important questions—in respect to the Repeal of the. Union, and relation to the general permanency of the Reform Bill. With respect to the Repeal of the Union he had nothing to add or retract from the opinions he had already stated. (Hear, hear.) These opinions were read by the Right Ho nourable Gentleman the Member fur Pembroke last. nights and were exactly in comformity with the:opinions stated by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland in the name of himself, and Go vernment in November last. The opinions thus given put by authority in which his Noble Friend the Lord-Lieutenasit declared that the Repeal of the Union would be fraught with calamity, and must lead to the separation of the two countries.. These were his opinions; but hie they were so, the mores he considered it a calamity, the more he dreaded suds a calamity coming on the country the more he cons dered tine just complaints of the people of Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) It he were indifferent to the Union—if he thought that that Union might be di•solved without much harm or inconvenience—if it were merely a secondary question —he should hardly feel so great an interest in opposing the Noble Lord's Bill.—( Hear. ) But it was because he liked—because he was attached to, and bcsause he wished to maintain the Union, that he felt himself bound as an English Mamber of Parliament as well as a Mi ni ter of the Crown, to see that the people were not wronged by such a measure. —( Cheers.) Again, with regard to the I Reform Bill, his opinions were the same as he had declared in his latter to the electors of Stroud, in which he had placed thews on record. With regard to its being a permanent measure, his opinions were unchanged, as they were also with regard to the inexpediency and danger of reconstructing the epresenta tion of the country. But with such a case as was then made out to the 110115 C—with such a case, with regard to the fran chise in Ireland, as had been stated to them,—when it was shown, on the one side, that the measure would lead to the establishment of almost any kind of vote, while, on the other hand, it was contended that it would extinguish the franchise, he thought such case justified him in interfering with the Irish Reform Bill. He did not shut his eyes to the danger of encroaching on that measure, and for that reason he should have been reluctant and unwilling to interfere at all with the Irish Reform Act, until it was made absolutely necessary ; it was now made necessary, not only by the introduction of the. Bill of the Noble Lord, but by the votes of the House during the past Session. With respect to the franchise they propose to give, he considered that there would be no ground or precedent for claiming such a franchise for England. He h a d given the number of free holders in five counties in Ireland, and he should read the num ber in two counties in England, one of which the Noble Lord opposite represented, and the other being represented by his Noble Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland. In Lan cashire the total number of freeholders was 16,875, and the total number in the registry was 27,79 6 i; in York the number was 26,022, and the total on the registry was 49,529. Thus in these two English countries alone there was a total of 67,325, and when such was the franchise in England, when it extended to so many, and when the franchise in Ireland was so restricted, was there not a danger that the extreme disparity might make the Irish discontented?—(Loud cheers.) With respect to the whole of the question, he was not a believer in the notioa that the Irish people would be so exasperated by the proceedings of that House as that they would transfer their allegiance to any foreign power ; he had no apprehension of that.. But the matter was nevertheless of grave importance.. With regard to foreign nations, was it nothing when they had a treaty with any great Foreign Powers, or with America— was it nothing that those communications should come from the Minister of a Queen who reigned over a kingdom united in. hearts and affections ? All that could be said was that there• was discontent in a third part of the empire—that a portion C‘ it was subjected to tumult and convulsion. He would put it no further than that. As far as that they all felt the value of main taining the people of this country fully united. With respect to the Ivople o: Ireland he begged to say he h o p e d t h ey wou ld not be led away by those representations, which he had no doubt the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin himself sincerely be lieved, but he thought that that Hon. and Learned Gentleman was under a misapprehension with regard to the people of England—he hoped that the people of Ireland would not be led away by the representation that the people of England, or any great portion of the people of England, entertained any hatred towards the Irish people. There had been many re ligious prejudices in existence of old, no doubt—there had been many instances of cruelty exercised, but he did not: think that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman derived any benefit from those old recollections:—" Utinam meliorem debit Deus bis quoque finem." He entreated him to disbelieve there was any such disinclination to do justice to the people of Ire land. He believed that the course pursued had constantly been to lay before that House all the grounds for and against any measure, either for lessening or in creasing the franchise of the people of Ireland.—( Hear. ) The measure for increasing might be met with indifference on the part of many, but his belief was, if it were urged in a spirit of good sense anti reason, lie would say not without vehemence, because he thought that vehemence might be properly used in a just cause; but without any undue intemperance ur unjust reflections on the people of England, that people would be ready, and anxious, and gratified to do any ac i t that they would thnk for the benefit o f I re l an d. Th e people,i,:of Ireland had suffered many disqualifications, their corporations were exclu sive monopolies. These evils were felt by the great body of the people, but in the end they had been get rid of ; and h. believed this, that the inestimable benefits •of the Consti tution would confer on the people, of Ireland the ample advantages it was calculated to give. Justice might be thwarted, but in the end it would prevail.—( Tremendous cheering.) And in the security of that coetiction he fear lessly relied on the result of a division. The House then divided, when the numbers were For the second reading For the amendment Majority for Ministers The announcement of the majority was received with loud cheers from the Ministerial benches. Lord J. RUSSELL then announced that the Bill would be committed pro forma on Monday night, when his Noble Friend (Lord 11Iorpeth) would give notice of the evening when it should be proceeded with. The other Orders of the Day were thendisposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter before Three .'Clock. 299 294 COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL.—At the meet ing of the Court ye.terday, Mr. Wire moved a vote of thanks to Sir'RJbert Stopford, Sir Charles Napier, Sir Charles Smith, and to the several Captains, Officers, Sea men, and Royal Marines, for the zeal and bravery di,•- playcd by them during the late operations on the coast of Syria, and also that the Court should present a sword to each of the three gallant Commanders. A counter-motion was proposed by Mr. Peacock, to the effect that a vote of thanks should to given to these distinguished Officers, and be communicated to them is boxes made of the heart of cak, as more congenial to the characters of the givers as well as the receivers. The amendment was carried by , a great majority ; and the thanks will, therefore, to pre sented in splendid boxes made of oak. ARMY AND NAVY.—The March Number of the United Service Journal, and Naval and Military Magazine, contains, among other imp°, taut papers—The Fir ifications of Paris examined practically (with a Plan) —Mil!ta-y Mathematics—The British Colonies consi dered as Military Posts, by Lieu•.-Col. land's Wooden Walls ; The Sybille—Narrative of Lieut. Fred. J. White, R. M., of his Capture and Imprisonment by the Cat-lists—Voyages of the Adventure and Beagle—The Mids of Other Days, by. Jonathan Oldjunk, Esq., R.N., No. 2—Personal Adventures and Excursions in Georgia, Circassia, and Russia, by Lieut.- Col. G. Potaitt Cameron, K.T.S., &c.—Lines on the Loss of H. M. S. Fairy—Notices of Steam Navigation—. Our Naval Preparations—Stations of the British Army and Royal Navy in Commission on Ist of March, 1841, &c.—With all the Naval and Military Intelligence of the Month. EDITED BY THEODORE HOOK, ESQ.—The March Number of Colburn's " New Monthly Magazine and Humorist,"contains—Fathers and SonF,by the Editor—The Friend in Need, an Extravagimaaltfter Sterne, by Tho mas Hood, Esq.—Might ag 'nit Right, a Rom ance o f t h e Tyrol, by the Hon. E. P ps—Maria Louisa as Duchess of Parma— Foreign S !ling, by Nimrod—Morals and Manners of the 16tfi and 17th Centuries—The Life and Adventures of Chirles Chesterfield, the Youth of Genius, by Mrs. Trollop—Pellets for Proaers—Anti-Pacification, by Laman Blanchard, Esq.—A Winter and Summer is Canada, by Frederick Tolfrey, Esq.—The French Press ---Don't you wish you may get it ?—Literature of the Month. THE BOOK WITHOUT A NAME.—The work announced as " The Book Without a Name," by Sir Char es and Lady Morgan, has already excttsd consi derable curiosity. We have heard it is composed of most amusing sketches of society, from the fashionable coteries of May Fair, to the equally exclusive circles of the little great people of Pimlico and the parts adjacent, exhibiting their prevailing (oilier in a manne ar r ac a t s faithful, targ e t s at as entertaining, andyourtraying ce wit t h aj a nh resemblance e"- spicuous features; eso that cannot fail to be eadily recognised. Besides which, v e are told, these clever writers have treated a variety of 0 in the same pleasant style • other popular subjects Cookery, antiquarianism, physic, and even .... picture, some things available, are set up by then La ANIORE, arrows of the' • - which they direct the a v it so eiLctually, apparently less attractive of the reason. that the work is expected to be one of the most - ' KING'S COUNTY ELECTION, T MONDAY EVENING. —The polling commenced this •aid from the start Mr. Armstrong led mg, morn the way hour ly increasing o his majority. Th e Bill f Lo rd ' peth has raised the enthusiasm of the M nr _ people to the hi li pitch, as they now see they ha ve something to hope g eat to struggle for, At the c l ose on Monday g and were declared as follows : the numbers Armstrong ........................ 204 Bernard ........................... 129 Majority eve: the .. Stanleyites... 75 We were shown, a few days since, some writing paper, with maker'; name, and dated 1842. Persons drawing up documents of importance should be careful not to use any post-dated paper, 113 it may lead to unplea sant mistakes in future. We remember an instance within our knowledge, where a man went to prove a debt of 601. under a bankrurcv, but was unable to do so, in conse quence of the paper bearing date subsequent to the alleged transaction.— Cheltenham Examiner. On the I Ith of February, 1840, three English. men were walking on a beaten path across the sand-hills in Capeetne to gain the sca-side. One of them said bonjour to a man who saw them approaching, and who retuined the civility. No sooner had they cross e d, th an he ran u p an d demanded their name , . Two refused to g.ve them ; one, knowing that he had done no harm, gave his arnc,and this man wh turned out to be the guaruian, makes out a proces-verbal against the party for tresra.,sing on the Etabiissement s du Port de houl9gr.e, which i. duly forwarded to the l'refet of the Department, who fines the party, without hearing a word in his defence, in the sum of francs ! Of thii be gets notice on the 23th of January of this year, and is very politely requested to . pay it at the Bureau des Domaines to avoid expenses. How i s A foreigner to know which sand-hill is opcnf or his walks, which is not ? For ourselves, we have 19: en here off and on for 11 years, but we had no idea it was defendued to walk upon the Capecure sand-hills.—Boulogne Gazette, Mr. Sheridan Knowles has, it is said, consented to write a new play, for the purpose of introducing Mr. Charles Ken in an criginal part, whenever be entered into an engagement at Covent-garden a market. Z 7 ' ) kr./ ~, have a . the Hay- , 1 ~.i6:' .47