The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-03 00:00:00

r t ist:rter 1., Ow which the Noble Earl 1),(1 r..f.rrecl ro—(lleAr, hear, hear !) The Eol of DARNLEY spoke shortly in expla- I) , * ion Atter a short limber conversation, the Bills were severally read the second time, and com nl.:red for to-morrow, with the Apparent tinder— stanoing of their being the first in the order aiscossion.—Adjourned at tight o'clock. HOUSE' or COMMONS. A Copy of the Resolutions of the East India Coinpany, rel-itive to the'graoting of certain Pen. iions, pursuant to the direction of the House, was oi &red to lie on the table. The Report of the ComMittee of Supply was bronelit up by Mr. BROGDIIN, and its Resolutions. read and agreed to. The Report of the Committee on Stamp Duties brought up, and its Resolutions read, and a Bill ordered . Mr BENNET (of Wiltshire) presented a petition from certaiti Individuals in the City of Bride town, praying for the needful assistance to carry them to Upper Canada, or any other of his Ma. jesrv's Dominions. Mt . Bat 4 NET rose to give notice, that on Thurs day the 9fh inst., he should submit to the House I motion on the State of the Manufacturing Dis tricts of the County of L.4neaster. sEnmoOs MEETING Buz. Lord CASTLEREAGH having moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Seditious .11leelino Bill , Mr. M. A.TAYLoR begged leave to atk•a ques tion of H Noble Lord opposite. whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to propose any alteration or amendment in the Bill, or to allow it to stand in the state it then was; he was poceediog to di , cuqs the -matter, when Toe STESAKER called him to order. - A TAYLOR and observed, that it WAS 11 1 %t lI'S intention to debate . nio the Istthif et betorr. the House, but merely to ask a simple question. L rd CASTLERRAGH was sure that the Hon. Alembc.r too much ex lierl.2nce not to know ,11,,it the Committee was the place for discussing the details. Mr. GRENFELL rose, and was about to state his opiision on the Bill, when Lord CASTLEREAGH put it to the Honourable Gentleman whether it would not he more conve nicot to give his sentiments on the question for the second reading. Mr. GRENFELL acquiescing, the order of the dAy was rva(l. . The SOLICITOR-Gesuttat then got tip to move the sc.-1...d reading of t he Bill, when Mr TlE:itself observed, that if the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) did not intend to commence the debate, it was open to his Honourable Friend tli s ! ,eak. After some further discussion, in which Lord Cot leo cagh, Mr. 'fief ney, llt. Grenfell, the Svt aker, and Mr. Percival. participated, GBRNFELL said, he would detain the House ,ew minutes, in employing that ppportu ni•y a , iptaint them with the opinions he e nter. tain , d, anll the conduct he intended to pursue in eon*equeuce of his °Onions, on the grew subject yvhico at present occupied almost the exclusive at. teat ion of the House. He would briefly suite. • that he had absrain,d, on a former occasion, fruits giving his vote either on the question for an apeudinent, or on the motion at the . Noble Loid (Castlereagh) on Tuesday last, purely from trio- Oyes of a personal nature. Ile hop e d he had not . been guilty of a dereliction of his ditty in so do ing.lo the present instance, however, when the matter cense before him in a public point of view, he could lint allow hit private feelings . to inter ere ; and be rose now for the purpose of staling. in the face of the House, that from the ioforma ,tion h e had derived trom . the paper; at present before it, he should fet I it incumbent on him to support all the measures announced by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) on Monday last, as the in tentiutt of his Majesty's Ministers to introduce, reset vin{,, however, the right of objecting to or supporting any modification or amendment in any one of •he same which might hereafter he pro. posed. For the present he should content himself with moving the second leading of the (Cloesing.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then rose, and said, that however much the measures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers on the present occasion might, at first view, he considered by some Gentlemen inimical to the interests of the country, or ina dequate to the purposes intended by them, he was fully convinced that, after their general character came to he known, and the question more tho - roughly understood, they would not fail of meet ing with the support they deserved. In conse quence of the absence of his Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) he had to claim the indulgence of the House whilst he performed the duty which devolved upon him, of going through the details of the measures about to be submitted to the House. He was convinced that, upon due con sideration of them, they would be found not to go one step beyond the present necessities which gave rise to them. A disposition had been maul tested by she Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House to undervalue the extent of the danger, and it had been attempted to represent to the House that the danger was confined to the Co'in ties of Lancaster and Chester only. To show the fallacy of such notions it would only be necessary to advert to facts of notoriety, which were be fore the public. He could state upon his own responsibility, that the Counties of Northumber land, Cuniberland, Durham, and the vicinity of Glasgow, were in a state of disaffection and open hostility so Government almost approaching to iehellion.-,-(Hear, hear, hear o—Leaving out of consideration all that had taken. place tinder their more immediate observation in London, and laking.the range of country front the West Rid - log of York to the north- of Glasgow, including, perhaps, the Most -active parCof 'the population of the kingdom, actuated by this hostile spirit, be-thought there were sufficieht ground, for mak tlee measures general in their applicatiol:-- .0-fear 1 .)- - He• trusty& these considerAions would Ise accepted as sufficiently answering the objeitiOrt which Lad been made to the measures nut being of S partial nature. The circumstance whieh was most alarming in the operations of the seditious was the unremitting activity they evinced in the purspit of their object, the rapidity with which their pernicious principles were diffused from their head-quarters in Lancashire, which showed not only. the necessity_ of the restrictive. measures about to be proposed, hot of their immediate en ._ forcemeut—(l-lear !)—Weie all the causes which led to the events of the French Revolution to he 1_ 05 t,,,,.0 the House ? Who did not know that it was t:lre metnifacturing districts that first showed theeepitit of rebellion, and that it was to the imeiness of the others that was owing all the fatal consequences that had been so much deplor ed ? The particular points to which the present treasures directed their operation were—training to tile use of arms ; the collecting of arms, for the purpose of carrying into effect designs formed aettinst the Constitution of the country ; and thittily, what was of great importance, the means resorted to in order to intimidate, for the purpose of checking all opposition, and to give clean ragenient to the abettors and partisans of the system.—He would take this opportunity to call to the recollection of the House the incentives which had been held out to assassination, and which bad been publicly and unblusb• inely advocated as a principle by the press He would particularly advert to •a Matiches ter print, which. in terms not to be misconstru ed, openly pointed at an indivilual as all object of hatred, and concluded by asking, if there was '' no unble Brutus ready to raise a dagger against such tyrants !"—(Hear, heat I .)—The next - cir cumstance be should notice a,, one of the means employed with the same design, was the numerous assemblies of large tiumbets collected under pre tence of discussing . Perlianientaty Reform, but in reality for the putpose of showing their strength, in orecr to intimitlete their opponents, and en conrege their partisans.—(Hear !)—Another of the objects contemplated in the measures proposed was the present state of the Press—he meant that part of it, which he should denominete the'eheap, or low press, end which was admitted by the Gentlemen opposite, to be so tmrch in need of re striction. Having finis pointed out the leading features of the measures projected, for the oppo sition of that mischievous system at present in practice, by the enemies of the country, the ques tion to be considered was, whether they were of that wise, discreet, moderate, and constitutional description, which it was desirous they 8/weld be. ,! The first instance to which he should call the at tendon of the House, was what respected' the Li berty of the Press. All that was asked on this head was that there should be some security from the authors of cheap - publications, that ip the teem of their beitte convicteci by a Jury of their country, there should he wherewithal to'pay the flute. They were not left at the - discretion of a Magistrate. No previous censorship was demend ed.—(Hear ! from the Opposition.)—He would ask Gentlemen, if a 'machine of this formidable nature was to be entrusted to persons of such a description as at present wielded it. without any security ? !In order to obviate any difficulties which might arise in defioing the classes of publi cations on - which the tax ,hotild tall, it was pro posed to lay it on alt such as discussed political subjects - in the meatier of newspapers. It was next plopesed that after one coerictien, the offender' should be visited wi , h an increased de gree of punishment ; a principle, which, he thought, could not in candour be objected to, and the more so when it was considered that this was .only at the discretion of the Judges. On the subject of the military training, which was carried to such an alarming excess through out the conotry, it was true that the laws, as they now stood, made' it .high treason for any one who was convicted of training to military exercises for the purposes of overturning the Government ; but as it was obviously 'difficult to bring home to persons their motives and inten tions, it was proposed that no such training be permitted to he carried on without permission. It was also proposed to institute new modes of prosecution against persons charged with misde meanors, with a view to accelerate their trials ; but ample time was in all cases allowed for the preparation of the defence, and, es it was postible that individuals might not be' afforded a fair trial in the Courts below, it 'was in their power to re move it to the superior Courts. Magistrates were. to have the power of seizing at ins which were kept for purposes inconsistent with- the public safety. In granting these powers, homever, there was no just apprehension that the liberty of the sulijeet should be encroached upon, as they could not be exercised without evidence having first been laid before the Magistrate that they were kept for soch illegal purpOses, and atter the seizure it would be still open for the owner to come with evidence of the iunoxious purpose; if their restoration should then be refused, he could carry the matter before a higher Court. Hav ing thus dismissed the preliminary hearings of these measures, be would take the present occa sion to advert to the charge which had been thrown out against the Law Officers of the CroWn —that all the evils respecting the Press were owing to them. lie mainly attributed all that growth of libel which had taken place within the last three years to the effect produced by the ac quittal of Hone upon three libel, of a most hiaa phernous and seditious character; . and when it Was known' that individuals were found in the country who had hailed that e acqeittal, and that persons had been found to come forward with sub scriptions which had raised that man to a state of affluence, he thought it was unjust to attribute to the Officers of the Crown the progress which had been made in sedition since that period.. It had been said that it was the - object of the Bill to put down all meetings. 11 would be seen, however, that this was far from being the real character of , it, Meetings would still be held under - the sanction of the Lord Lieutenant of 'tire County, a Certain . number of Magistrates., or the Foremen . of the Grand Jury; and 'if all these -should refuse their countenance to any meeting, it would be evident that its object could not be gOOd. Even in this case, however; -the people . would still retain their poWer of meeting, as they tnight meet iii their own parishes or townships. wduld•not eriter"roore infir , detail at present, as the principle of the Bill was all that we, now Uu• der diseusilon. The permanent character of the Bill had been one of the objections made to it, but he would remind the House, that the spirit it was directed against bad been in course of pro gress during the last three or four years. In spite of all the efforts that bad been made to repress it, as soon as the restric►ive measures bad been taken off, it unfolded itself with the same bitter, the same hostile character as before.—(Hear !)—They had been told to conciliate, but to concede with the Reformers would be to succumb, and to give fresh vigour to their cause, and fresh spirits to their-partisans.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by apologizing to the House for the length of time he had de -1 tallied it. Mr. LYTTLI3ToN hoped be would not be charged with vanity when he declared that he rose with more confidence, on the present occasion, than he had ever done before. He deriVed this confidence from a conviction of the soundness of the princi ples of the measures to which he :i•as about to give his support. He rather regretted the neces sity he was under of dill; ring from those he was in the habit of co-ooet wing with, in considera tion of the recent 'min .:yoked attack "which had been made on them by the Noble Lord opposite. Had the measure been founded on the notoriety of certain facts alone, be would have suppsrted it. and doing this he was sure he should have been justified by nine-tenths of all the anbiassed men in the country. He appealed to the House, if the meetings which had taken place within the last few years had not menaced the peace and tranquiility of the State, and sufficiently proved that those who had been most active in calling them, aimed at nothing les, rlevolution. Several meetings had takto piste since the fast prorogation of Parliament, which was clearly of this description. At the Meet's?. held at Hunslet Moor, though the Hon. Member for Bishop's Castle bad read some of the Resolutions there come to. as it to prove that they had a loyal ten dency, he (Mr. Lyttleon) thought the treasona ble ottenttoos of those by whom they were framed were apparent. He begged to remind the House, that it st as there detjrmined on depot y and district meetings, with a view of noir hie the whole to give a general signal for rising and in surrection. He world ask, whether it was not the ditty of that House to put down such pro ceedings by force. To the Hunslet Moor Meeting succeeded that at Birmingham, at which that most extravagant pi oceeding took place, theeffrontery of \vinch was only exceeded by its constitutional vii- election of a Legislatorial Attorney to sit in that House, hi'the person of Sir C.Wolseley. No papers were necessary to be laid before the House to prove the designs of the Radicals after such a proceeding. - . The Leeds and Manchester Meetings he next noticed. Into the proceedings connected with the latter he thought Ministers, it they did their duty, would institute an inquiry. He entertained an idea that the- Magistrates had acted under circumstances of great provocation 5 and if they had overstepped the law, as he was in clined to think they had ; it was infinitely better that this should be 'moved ; that all should be known that coolil he proved against them, ratissr than that the calumnies which were tiow abriiad should remain unretuted in ohe - minds. of- the lotsaf. Would any man say of the Manchester Meeting that it ought to have heen tolerated, or that, if it were not contrary to law, it Were not high time that the law should be altered to p, event the re currence ot such meetings ? Several treetingS of an alarming nature had - since takeo place. From the testimony of several persons of undoubted credit he onderstood.,the•Meeting at Birmingham to baYe had every charactet of a rebellious assault before a military force made' its appearaece. On this case he would have advised the Noble Lord to found the measure now betose the House. This would have been better than; giving the papers which had been laid before the House, and then inconsistently (as he . thought), refusing to cOn tient to any inquiry being set on foot that might lead to their verification. The papers, however, in his judi s ment, went to prove that a fatal and extensive conspiracy had been formed. They bad the testimony of the Manchester Magistrates—the declaration of the Magistrates at the Cheshire Quarter Sessions, in which schools where disaffec tion was ownly taught had been mentioned, and the fact offered to be verified. There was a letter • from the Earl of Derby speaking of the arming of the people ; added to this, were depositions that were not anonymous, made on the 10th of Au gust, which went to-corroborate the former state ment, and prior to this they had seen the spirit of disaffection manifested in the assassination of Bitch the constable. The declaration of the Lan caster Grand Jury announced the existence or a conspitacy, not only against Government, but against all private property. This was marked by the extensive circulation of seditious writings, by a system of intimidation being resorted to—by military trainingS, and by a systematic detertni nation to refuse payment - of rent and takes. That men should refuse to pay taxes, being discon tented wilt the Government, and in doubt as to the countenance of its authority, might be one of the ordinary features of disaffection ; but that they should determine on refusing to Tay their rents as well, seemed to prove them to have lost all sense of right. They had before them evi dence which could not be surpassed in point of respectability on the disturbed state of the West of Scotland. Was it trite that the Duke of Hamil ton, wishing to gain signatures on a loyal Ad ' dress, and to form a corps for the preserva tion of the peace, and the protection of pro ' petty, had found both impossible ? If this Were so, the fact, added to the other circum. stances Whitt' he had noticed, and combined with the 'violent proceedings which had taken place at Paisley, .justified' him in maintaining, first, that a measure founded on the principle of that be fore the House, was justified by the notoriety of certain transactions; and 2d, that much had been made out in its favour by the papers laid on the table. -But then caine the question, whether the present laws, if - vigorously enforced, would not he sufficient to repress the evil ? He was not *of this opioibn. He'did not know whether the laws might not have been equal to the task at a former perindl but nOW, after the Course `which had been pursued, - that strong measures were tie , cessary to overwhelm the torrent of blasphemy and sedition which had assailed as, he could n't more doubt than he could that be was at th at moment addressing the Speaker. Though th e spirit of Treason was manifest in many of thu s° papers which had been alluded to, and which it had been a matter of complaint that the Atcore ney-General had omitted to prosecute, he wa 3 f opinion that there was but a poor chance of 0 " taining a conviction in Middlesex, after the a" quittal of Mr. Hone. The defence then set 0 1 ) was ridiculous, as it went on the assumption, 01: because the libel prosecuted was seditious as w e ll as blaephemons, its publisher must be innocelo. Ile believed the acquitted person had found Ili° defence in the motives of Isis prosecutors. ghat acquittal had operated as a license for the pablic iP ! tion of blasphemy and sedition. In the last vest' , things had taken a turn, and it became doubtfu l where prosecutions would not have been no r° successful, as it bad been found that dories were ready to do their duty in the case of that miselei ble wretch and execrable offender, Carlile. he was of opinion that the old laws -were te l sufficient, seeing they had never contempla te d such an abuse of the right of petitioning es lately been witnessed. He believed that it w e ' absolutely necessary that this Bill should p9 O , and be made immediately efficacious. Whateves was necessary for this purpose, he would readil subscribe to. If, as had been contended, the e l , was found to be local, be hoped Ministers Woul d exercise an unbiassed judgment on the questio n, whether the remedy ought not to be local 8 1 °' and confined to the disturbesecounties. Au 1 0 7 Friend had objected to the measure under Vin 6e. Aeration of being made permanent, as the c. 404 of it was said to be transient,—the distress. He would admit that if tie exist' n t distresS could be removed, the evil eeem je . ebritl e to such a size that the present laws (e ight n g able to cope with it ; for he did not belie ° that the people of England, blessed ettsh " c c noblest and best Constitution that had e t been - learned for any country, woule fur 0 n' tt ; ment be disposed to rise against it, hit 4 0111 r 4 the pressure of ealemi:y. But could tee distr ess be suddenly removed ? This was not so be l'` ) ?; ed, and he therefore - thouget, instead of eres'" l ," t the Bill for a few years, it might Is, better it shone d be made local, and being weee •I ' t o would, in fact, be temporal y He agrerd 411 0 the greater part of what bad been said AJRip coercion, amid could only approve of coercive f oe ai sines ter the prevention and f utilisimiettf crimes, which ie no other way could fie V down. He agreed with those who favoured 0 41 l : ciliation, so far as to wish to see mat sort cu' ciliation, which was never to be discovered tII 11'o measures of his Majesty's Ministers.--(tin e hear, bear !)—He wished to conciliate the pie by a system of real economy —(Hear, be i ot hear !)—Bet Ministers, he believed, bed V I , the word conciliation out of their vocabulare together. According to them, the people ` vc e, always - wrong, and were never to he conciliated, From the course they were in the habit of pa s w themeesures nue v about to be placed in ti P le hands seoelsi fuse much of their effect. He "' i l l y . ed see them adopt a system of concilietione o l stead of that of aggravation on which they " t o hitherto acted. Pailiamtie ore Ro ortn was le t i e called for. Inquiry s-n this subject ze thele would produce an effect the opposite M conc tion. This was not his opinion. He had thotert o f after uniting on the present occasion to down the rebellious spirit now in the cou tu re • t er / that they might, without losiny, sight of !hoc ox nity, safely proceed to an inquiry, the rest Toe which would perhaps do away some of t e d ese abuses which at present weakened and deface",ep legislation and administration of the cootrsdeo, Acting on their present system, the new , sures would be more abortive in the boo ° le Ministers than in any other hands. Al / h e :ell said this be by no means wished that those, ' tvo whom he was in the habit of acting slie n)( ,li called to office.. lie should be sorry for ti ' v is it were to happen, as the Noble Lord 0' et high in public estimation, would lose his inflere„e with the people if. promoted by his Sover j e, And he believed whet they (the Whigs) cot it `', coi»plish in office (allowing for the weeklies of human nature).—(A laugh.)--would nor Ist oll such importance to the country as to 0 04 ,, s 0 in wishing for a chenge. Still he could wnt alteration to take place. Authority in the l ' 4 ly l of the Noble Lord at the head of the Heinle ,0 , payment, would but provokecontempt and ti t het tent from the unsparing severity with whiel s w elt knew it would be used. He could tmot bu t ij ee that Ow Noble Lord, much as he reseeel4(e bit in private life, were removed from o ffi ce , 81— ,0 4-1 situation filled, not by one of those at ° h o t now considered the advocates of the pear by one of his own party. ere ea r Ml'. MACDONALD said, had the meas“ r o f $ posed not been , as inflamed as the speec h Hon. and Learned Gentleman, w ho, tr ay s from London to Glasgow, coal discover o° 00 but treason and seditionee the face of ev er ra e he met by the way, lie should have beet s g a rnit come to a vote on a proposition for seie i l, and preventing illegal training, without reser to the confidence he was in the habit of r c a ot o in she present Government, and of giving which at once reconcileable with the proteetin r , l , e e tV„ the peaceable population of what were cad 0 see: disturbed districts bad a right to claim , al/ Cop the permanent interests of the Country an d co f StitUt ion. He, however, could not uPPr °v _ es alo e ' course intended to be pursued, as, afte r th eo 0,0 of all the coercive measures which h ad b ee to ?to sorted to, it was now thought necessary ow e I recourse to further violence. It vev g c f re O t , this, that a tax must be imposed on Ibe r J o e / , ge meet the expellee creates! by main.teialo uo ttl e ' o i additional troops in the bosom of tt4c o the rt ee Hand in band with this measure virile -"- of • I ffiC ers pet down meetings Which the Law O of Crown, and other authorities, wer e ueo o o were already illegal. T i he measure ltuw"hiclie, went to diminish that right, with °l ., t ieg ti le e s‘ House of Commons could have been 31 ;be alnsee the right of petitioning, which wev ereste i. r oe confined within the limits of a Paris h vnettorlo mll fore such a change received their s4 OO osba s ocli House ought to pause mini. reflect W ee , bee past measures of a Government Ile" •Of had thus teeth the aucieat system " . ° l lrl hierii,! N C ntr .011 c, Nlr 4 :t. !nr Mr 144 "Cri W ere *f firie kill P)t tet) 11,l14)41 drJr . litlit, iwart , itk'Rti tw„ l lie n v i llvpo Melt R'h~ E . I w thost . 11 .10; e 411)n tO lll4l 4(1, 4 110 12.4(1. ha `f lie v ~~~esi th ey ;cif 11 411 4i ti ri ety th e , 11,e i'arti, 'luta