The Sun. — London, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

the general concurrence of this and preceding Pei tel- Inents, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) might be permitted to inter from that circumstance that the measures of which so large majorities ap proved, or in which all concurred, con d nut be qatte 50 far wrong as the Honourable Gentleman would J uggt‘t. He was not disposed to take exception to any of the minor points to which the Hon. Gentleman referred; neither would he allude to the re ference made to local taxation. He did not see that connexion it had with the conclusion to which Hon. Gentleman had come, but thought it would De found that a general increase of local taxation had arisen from the general improve- Meta which, in recent years, had taken place in local ad ministration, the adoption of hotter means of providing for the secondary punishment of criminals, and properly acco mmodating lunatic asylums. The general increase of local taxation was owing to a general improvement ie administration. Addressing himself to the main ques tion, he took no exception to the Hon. Gentleman's re ference to the year 1835. The Hon. Member for Mon tr ose and oth ers h a d constant l y re f erre d to 1792; and there was no reeson why reference s h ou t ( nOt be made to a prior year. But when th s lio nourable Gentleman took that year as the standard to Which eU the House must necessarily revert, it ought to be remarked that there were two conditions ( ;a which any year could be accepted for the purpose; " r at, that in the year selected adequate provision was Made f or t h e pu b lic serv i ce; an d, secon dly, that no sub sequent chang e h a d taken place in the state and t ercum stances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman proposed, by re curring to the expenditure of 1 83 5 on th e naval and military services, to eft ct a re auction of 10,000,000/. He stated truly that in 1848 the total expenditure was 54,185,000/., while it 1835 it W as 44,422000/ ; the difference between them being little sh ort of-10 000,0001. But the whole of that in crease was not to be estimated as an increase in the naval and military expenditure. The Hon. Member himself referred to an extraordinary item of expen diture —the Kafir war, which was entirely unforeseen. Then, ther e were 276,000/, for Irish di stress. The Hon. Member referred also to the increased expen diture for civil purposes. But, besides an increase on the consolidated fund charges, principally for judicial establishments and Irish constabulary, there was ale in crease on the miscellaneous expenditure of 4,092,000/.; leaving the increase on the naval and military 6,015,000/. Were the lion. Gentleman to carry out his reductions by assimilating the expenditure to that of 1835, he could *fleet a saving of only 6,000,000/. It was not consistent with the true and best interests of this country to effect reductions in the naval and military establishments to the extent he proposed. If his proposition were simply to carry out every practicable economy, he (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) did not differ from the Hon. Gentleman; and he hoped to prove that Ministers had not been unmindful of the pledge they had given last y ear, to make every reduction necessary for the public Interest, although they could not anticipate the halcyon d ays to which the Hon. Gentleman looked forward, when a. national quarrel would be settled in a court of arbitra tion, and every sword would be converted into a plough teseoualrde.rio li t nder these circumstances the Hon. M e mb er complain of the manner in which he p ro p ose d ti o l meet his motion. It was desirable that the opinion of T e Rollie should be deliberately expressed u p on th e a t question w h e t ter t h e esta bli s h ments o f t h e country I sh uld be r e d uce d to the scale of 1835. Experience had iB2 4 :a that the provision made for the public service in was inadequate. Fur four years which succeeded sae s !lie h e dt n h i r a a d i t t 3 h , e honour to hold the office of Secretary to respeated attacks, not during that time he was subjected to not for increasing the estimates, but enious disregard of the best interests of the e n i t r U i tt a tr P y ll , rsi T keeping them at too low an amount. The Mates of 1834-35.36 were constantly referred to as a P eer% l e ehi land yet the Hnn. Member had set-cted the ts west estimate of the three years, namely, that of 1835. the Pattern for reduction.—(Hear, hear.) In the ' att ea ci r 183 e we had no naval force in the Channel, ate th e necessity of nisintaioine such a force was e h ""gLY insisted upon in the discussions which took place ben the estimates in the following years. The Hon. Mem sleeta:a mistaken in asserting that the increase of the Il e " ?in 1 836 . was occasioned by the alarm respecting 4 851 °- The ground upon which an increase in the of "al force was proposed in that year was the necessity els e ll e t c l'ng further protection to British subjects trading 18 39 It was not until three years later, namely, in t hat the Hon. Member for Birmingham and the ut i . k g th e d Member for West Kent dilated in that House on d ek a nger to which the British coast was exposed o. a that, f rom Russia. The Hon. Member complained u, although our forces had been augmented upon va ee:, occasions they had never been subsequently re ha.:" ; but when the Hon. Member enumerated the PoZirds to which th e coun t r y h a d b een success i ve ly ex tbee ' S uch as the Chinese war, the dispute with America an Ut Oregon, the dispute with France about Otaheite, ell the r e b ellion in Canada, it did not appear that at lii e Y Period of the time to which he had directed 41eti0.133 serrations could we have reduced our establish to the standard of 1835, without endangering the 't s of our commerce abroad and the safety of our opt ea at home- In 1844 the Right Hon. Gentleman Pe;ir, ite, always evinced a desire to diminish ex te, o l : ,`tit'e Where it was practicable to do so, reduced the ye ar , " of seamen from 43,000 to 36,000; but a single that L s experien ce sat i s fi e d t h e Ri g h t H un . G ent l eman v, r ; l ,ne had carr i ed h i s re d uct i on to a po i nt at wh i ch i t a d d _ ` im sspossile it could be maintained; and in the able w hi t Which he delivered in that house in 1845, and sent %l i w as a perfect text -book on financial matters, he ei _ ti e4 ded upon grounds not arising out of temporary ferreelnstaeces or any particular state of things. but re kee" to general policy, that the number of 110 ,:‘ proposed to be maintained in 1844 wag e0 ; 1 adequate to protect the interests of the u try, and he accordingly increased the number of * 4 , 1 141 ' t , n to the *mount at which it stood in the pre clear mates, namely, 40 000 men. It was, moreover, di( jar that the Government of the Right }Lei. Gentleman th not think t h at even 40 , 030 seamen were sufficient for ic es "vice of the country, for when the present Govern "‘ eatne into office in 1846, they fund the number on and e mployed considerably more than had been voted, W ks a the Ist of January, 1847, the number in excess 1)1 0 - ,t' ° ° 0 , making the total number of seamen then em seti'su 44,0 00 men. 4,000 men were reduced on the 14' 5 11 . 1 ' 43 of 1848, and 3000 more would be reduced in f o SO, making a total reduction of 7,000 below the t o r n Which the 'tight Hon. Gentleman opposite proposed Whi o t i tl atain in 1845. The principal circumstance to j uiti th e Ri ght Hon. Gentleman opposite referred as I, 4 43e et stcry of the policy of maintaining the number of . !it 0 0 4 at 40,000 was, t h at s i nce 1835 a l arge fi e ld o f in th Ytuent fur the British navy had been opened With" e astern hemisphere. In 1835 our trade vneea Ch ina was mainly carried on by the in tik' tittitlity of th e E as t I n di a C ompany . N ow we 'va s qtre por ts open to us in Ch i na, in each of which it lias ilee esaery to maintain a British man of-war. Since Ki t t ? o, New Zeal an d h a d b een a dd e d to our co l on i a l fiv e of lons' and t h en , so f ar from regar.fing the ad ,, p ras tits "r'e trad e as a reason f or re d uc i ng our establish- Pstedi t be extension of commerce which might be abaci bisocia r em that pol cv would give rise to increased de- Pre teet . for protection to British subjects, and that the „S i tlu must be ext, end,-d to them, in whatever part of tippiitu.rlEl they might be placeil. The same argument lees e a, of course, to our military feice. The happy ke its a tented state of Canada, as described by the Hon. tbl,4iite,r, furnished some answer to his allegatunis of t4air `P i sgovernment. A military force was as little keg i n New Zealand as in Canada tor the purpose ;lt~eless,,,Ping down the British population; but it WAS erY to Protect that population against the war heit s t tt ee h e to which it had been exposed during the ) 4407 ° Years. The very letter which the Honourable t o,prov er h ad road from an emigrant was calculated Un tied e that the money was not ill expended that main te ext armed force to protect colonie s w hi c h o p ene d 4111 an field for British enterprise and industry, Atod ° M Which we m i g h t i n f u t ure years d erive the raw Portj d ee for man u f actures w hi c h i n t urn wou ld b e ex them. It was necessary to remark, also, that ilk,y, 7 3 a vast increase had taken place in our steam Ite t c h ; . 1 • 11 1835 we possessed not more than two or three s7essels. In that year no steamer had crossed the i mi le,lt and learned treatises were written to demon terir,',, the impossibility of such an event. Since that halal Navy the application of steam to the purposes of the 'tai l !' Navy had been carried to an immense extent, and et t ,:oW reached a point beyond which it was not ne tetitY to advance. The increase of the steam navy te . :ered necessary an increased charge for stores, but Ike ` t tempt had been made to show that there had been te,/'1 e xtravagance under that head. Upon this point he 144; ea ted the attention of the House to the following a rt:yg e in the report of the Select Committee on the "1%, 119;5 7, and ordnance estimates:— Sete le Vote for stores differs essentially from the other L 'ot , e - a " l lasizuch as it is not an estimate to provide for 4 - „, ll% ntnption of the ensuing year, but has reference 'tide "'re distant period of time. The effects of an eepe l e ) reduction in this vote are not, therefore, per stltilei. until some years after the time when the in ;4lse estimate may have been proposed. In such a - , 11 0111, e 1e obvious that the apparent economy in this vote Postponement of purchases necessary for the eiate,e"plee of the navy and, in fact, relieves the estt ititi,,,(4 e lle year by sling the burden on the votes of A lap :e session." eg etarrt,rbulerease of expenditure had likewise been in .atioe Y the establishment of steam-packet c.ommuni ttee, with hie f trent parts of the world, but that was an p a e r lesi n 4 the representatives of commercial and manu tetnoto%c2rntuunities, whose interests were so much ere w or l d rapid communication with distant parts of heease could not reasonably object to. The in tealtda of els Penditure which had taken place under the 11,,. ° .tnat e e s s t cles. buildings, and packets, since 1835, - not eh ° eg ne Las than 2,310,4001. Our steam navy tit be attained its maximum, a reduction was t e a to the Made under the heads of stores and bulld he 11' a mount of 638,000/. Trusting that the state roafade must have satisfied the Hothe of the t ow ate a making the large reduction in the navy Pre ee mat the lion. Member proposed, he would ti r . 4 id eri ed to deal with the question of the army. In e r l3 o3 g, t his question, justice was rarely done to the ti te ° .There was no army on the face of tho . vi e of p'o"s which such hard service was demanded in th:f a p o L e .." -- (1 - 1ear.) With the exception o f . the ser er t ,t ossi4 4 viou o f the French army in Algeria, and of %the tontine am in one or two possessions, the armies 1 4 % 4 io th: e ntal Powers remained always in time_ of Tbtq. w :. ?ountri es to wh i ch they respec t iv ely be_- th e y w ere "a Briti s h troops the case was reversed. It c , tropi cal eLzPosed alteinately to the frosts of Canada, f i g Nee l neat of the West Indies, and the burn. Or li 4 t i t he „ th ratst—year atter year they passed dutybaernue climate to the other, and di i r eor Cruel circumstances.— Loud cheers.) It ,tv e to make the British soldier's service 441 , 0 , 84 5 4:lt...than it was at present.—(Hear, bear.) 4 1 ,44 of f lu slit Hon. Gentleman urged that with the il • orce WL• it 11. A &itch had up t o th at t i me b een main .'" "en found impossible to relieve the eeldier their )olltoll 3r b - they they that Hope could tritice nents. s was 'shire. npton g was nk of great s and here, •, and ter of Itt it icalll mus from Nen Is, or I and of the as S THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 27, 1849. from tor undue st-veriy ot the service rtquired trot him. It was stated to be desirable that the soldier' , service ehould be apportioned thus:—ten years in tie colonies, fifteen years in India, and five years at home No one would mainiant that that was too favourable ae arrangement for the soldier; but the result had bee::, that from 1831 to 1838 the soldier had been at home, or the avernge. only four years and one month, and from 1838 to 1842 four yeas and ten months. The addition which bed been made to the army now enabled the sol dier to pass in this country the full period of five years, which Here essential to the recruiting of his health aftet service in the colonies.— (Hear, hear.) Although fifteen years was the period assigned for the service of troops in India, sonic regiments had beet: obliged to remain there, from want of relief, for nineteen, twenty, and even twenty•five ears.—(Hear hear.) At present there were eleven regiments at borne which had been litre more than five years, vvhilst there was only one in the colonies which had been there more than ten seat s, and only four in India which had served more than ten years. If any attempt should b - made to press more severely upen the British soldier it would before long be discovered that such a thing was anything rather than conducive to ecenemv.—(Hear.) It was the intention of the Government to make such re ductions in the army as, without infringing the rotation of the soldier's service, would consist with the duty of a Government not to, they believed, maintain a larger establishment than in their conscience the in terests of the country required. The Hon. Member in referring to the events ut last year had truly described the great mass of the people of this country as being at tached to the Crown and the Consti , ution. The spectacle which this country exeibited during the past year would form one of the proudest monuments of British history; but it was apparent from the admissions of the Hon. Memb , r himself that there was a risk of the contagious example of the Continent spreading to this country, and, under the circumstances, it was his (the Chancellor ot the Exchequer's) belief that no greater armed force was maintained than was absolutely necessary.—(Hear.) Al though the Hon. Member had spoken that evening in a tone of commendable moderation, the language employed by the Liverpool Financial Association in discussing the same question was not equally temperate. In one of the tracts issued by that associatien it was stated that the army was maintained solely for the purpose of feeding the younger sons of the aristocracy.—(Cheers.) Liver pool certainly was not the place from which such asser tions might have been looked for. Only last year the Government received application after application from Liverpool for additienal troops.—(llear, hear.) Troops were sent and encamped on the outskirts of the town, but the cry still came for mare, and also for the Suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus Act.—(Cheers and laughter.) It was not quite just, nor, indeed, honest, in a town which had benefited so much by the army in time of need, to turn round and say that the army was main tained only to support the younger sons and brothers of the English aristocracy. The persons who would first suffer injury from any tumultuary proceedings in this country would be not those connected with land, but those connected with commerce and manufactures; and it was, therefore, most ungrateful on the part of that portion of the community to cast upon the aristocracy the odious imputation of personal motives.— (Hear.) The next source of expenditure, and no doubt it was a very large one, was the ordnance service. Upon that they proposed no reduction, because it was necessary to maintain that branch of the service in fall vigour. It was most expensive and most difficult so to maintain it, and he thought that it Hon. Gentlemen would only refer to recent events in India, they would agree wit h him that. it was disgraceful to this country that, having such edvan.ages in all the arts of war, as well as in civiliza tion, we hardly ever went into action in India but thee we were overmatched in tha branch. In like marine the principal increase was not in the increase of force, hut from the change of the armament, both as to guns of large as well as small calibre. He did not wish to go into derails, but simply to refer to that which would be brought forward in greater detail when the esti mates were moved, namely, the increase, not only of cannon, but also of small arms. A great change had taken place, and he thought it would be an act of cruelty if we rent our troops into action anywhere witheut putting into their hands the best and most im proved kind ut arms. In the Chinese war a small party of our troops, armed only with the common flint mus kets, were surrounded by 3,000 or 4,000 Chinese ; they bravely defended themselves against that overwhelming force for several hours, but, a shower of rain coming on. their muskets would not go off ; a party of marines, armed with percussion muskets, was marched to their assistance, the Chinese immediately made off, and the soldiers were rescued. There had been a large increase in the expenditure of the ordnance department in conse qeence of that change, but when it was completed he thought they would be able to make a reduction in the amount of the annual estimates. To a great extent the j change had been already accomplished. lie believed, also, that there was a considerable reduction for stores in the ordnance estimates for this year Certainly there was a very prevalent feeling in this country not much more than twelve months ago as to the defenc's of this country not being sufficiently strong. He did ❑ot participate in the -- ext.raordinary alarm that was expressed by some Gentlemen on that (the Ministe rial) side of the House as to the danger of foreign invasion ; but he thought the Government would have neglected their duty if they had not taken fair and adequate means for the protection of our great naval establishments. Again, the great object, and a just ob. ject of that House, had been to improve and raise the moral. con , iition of the British soldier. For that purpose better barracks were required, and that could not be effected without. additional expense.—(Elear, bear.) If we were to have soldiers of a higher and better deserip ,ion, it was only just and right that proper accommoda tion should be afforded, so that that improvement might take plac,—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Gwntleman had alluded very shortly to the increae in the miscellaneous estimates. The increase in that expenditure had almost al aa) s taken place in items that had been pres•ed upon the Government by the House of Commons. Year after year charges had been put to the general expen diture. Government were either called upon to un dertake, or did undertake, duties which previously had been pertorrnt.d locally, and new charges, of an enormous amount, had been put on the miscellaneous estimates. Ho found that, since 1835, charges perfectly new had been put on those estimates to the extent of 600,0001. a year, and that on others there had been, not an ordinary increase, from year to year, but an increase by transfer and other things. Ile found that by the transfer of the county rates, the in creased vote for education, the increased expanses of convictions, and for printing, there had been an increase of nearly 700,000/. He was not professing to deal with minor sums. He was as much in favour of practical economy as the H.tri. Gentlemen himself could be—there was no;;ne in that House who could take such an interest in economy as he who had to find the means of pay ment. But if they were to give that protection to life and prop-Try at borne, and to trade and commerce abroad, which he believed to be necessAry for the deve lopment of our indu trial resources, it would be impos sible to reduce the naval and military expenditure to the extent the Him. Gewleman CO itenied 'or. They had, however, kept that object iu mind, and lie would en _ . _ deavotir to show that they had not been behind in @noting all practical economy. lie was happy to -ay that he very much concurred with the Hop. Genii man in believing that we were in a very different position this year from that in which wo were about, this time list year, when it was necessary to bring 4ward the votes at the time those estimates were 'nmar-d; and be it remembered, ahhough the French revolution had not broken out, thero was a state of feel- ing pervading Europe, and even France, which it might be expected would break out, and which actually did break out into rebellion, and no man could say at that time what the effect of trial effervescence might be. He thought, therefore, the Govertitnent would not have been justified last year in reducing the number of the troops or the number of men for the navy. His Noble Friend stated that he was not prepared to reduce one man in the course of last year, and he thought his Noble Friend was justified by the occurrences that had taken place; but he thought we were in a different position now. It was evident enough in many parts of the continent that those parties who were the leaders of the movement had not seen much reason to congratulate themselves upon it. There, as in this country, they had found that revo lution was a losing concern. —(Hear, hear.) In the neighbouring country of France they had shown a pa cific disposition, by a considerable reduction in the army and navy. Toe Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded— I believe that the conduct pursued by my Noble Friend at the head of the Foreign-office has most materially contributed towards the preservation of the peace of Europe; time has been gained for the passions to cool on both sides, and men have seen the folly of engaging in revolutions; and the chance of maintaining peace is as different from what it was last year as it is p issible to conceive, and there is but small probability, I hope, of our being engaged in any hostilities—(Hear, hear) — and the result is that we have telt ourselves justified in making reductions. I believe that these few incendiaries to whom my Hon. Friend alluded are deterred from act ing by finding how impracticable it would be to excite the population, of this country to any unwise disturb• ance. The mils are now pretty generally at work, and employment general throughout the manufacturing dis tricts, where disturbances may generally be expected to originate in times of distress. They are now not only alive to the folly of engaging in outbreaks, but they have not the inducements of want or distress to do so. There is no prospect of any disturbance of the peace in this country. The Hon. Member, in referring 'to the events of the past year, entirely omitted all reference to the sister country. Perhaps he will say, because there was no great reason to apprehend disturbance there. I belie% e, howevf r, that it was not the fault of the parties themselves tnat disturbances did not take pktee. Mr. COBDEN—I said there were not above one hundred perions in arms. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There are, however, well•authenticated accounts that much larger numbers were assembled, who were only re strained by the convic , ion of the presence of an imposing military force, and it was no lault of the authors or the insurrection that it dial not—l will not say succeed—but come to a h-ad. Even there, however, there is little risk of a recurrence, fcr I believe -Vint oithout some stimulus nothiag of the kind is likely to break out on the part of pea entry themselves; and this House has wisely armed the Government with the means of putting down those who are disposed to promote agitation.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, the Government has kit it to be in their power to propose a considerable reducion, both in the army and navy.—(Hear, hear.) I shalt now refer to the state of affairs in India, where wur has for some time pre vailed. The demand made upon us by this state of things has been met by a reduction if three regiments from this country. These regiments have been taken off from the British establishment, having cea4rd to be employed here. The actual reduction in number is 7,000, while the weight taken from the charge of this country is three regiments.--(Hear, hear.) The army l a d year Amounted to 113 ) 000 men; this has been re- eluced to 103,000, which is tether more than the amount of 1845, but rather less than that of 1846. The number n 1845 was 100,000, that in 1846, was 108,000 men. Legit year wo were enabled to make a considerable reduction in the expense without any reduction of the force. I wish to state the amount of those reductions which we have been thus enabled to accomplish last year, without any reduc tion of the force, and to compare them with the reduc tion to be seen in the estimates upon the table of the House; partly effected by a reduction of the actual ex pense, and pertly by a reduction of the force. The re ductions which were effected last year amounted in the cours eof the session to 828,5004 The reductions in the estimates of this year, as compared, not with the original estimates of last year, but with the reduced estimates effected at the end of the session, were in the navy 730,856/., in the army 378,624/., and in the ordnance 337.8734, being a total reduction in the naval and military establishments of the country to the amount of 1,447.3531.—(Hear.) Sir, I do not anticipate being able re ina'ke any great reduction in the miscellaneous expen diture of the country, from the large increase that has takes-. place in our foreign expenditure. I, however, take the reductions actually made last year, with those As they appear in the estimates now upon the table of the House, to amount to no less a sum than 2,275,853/ —(hear, hear.) I hope the House will take these facts as a proof that we are not insensible to the call of reduc tion that has been made upon us, and that it will be ad mitted we have carried out whatever practical reductions could be at present safely or reasonably made. It is hardly worth while to go into any details in respect to other items in which we have also effected great reduc tions, inasmuch as they must be viewed as inconsiderable when compared with those large sums to which I have already referred. Now the Hon. Gentleman has referred to the charges for the collection of the revenue, and such expe.eses. Sir, I can assure this House that we have not been unmindful of this important subject, nor have we have been induced for the sake of patronage, as it is alleged against my Hon. Friend and his Government, to keep up more offices than we think are absolutely ncces .ary for the general interests of the country. We have since last year consolidated the offices of Paymaster of Exchequer-bills and of Paymaster of Civil Services with the office of Paymaster-General, whereby we effected a :flying to the amount of 16,000/. in these small offices.— (Hear, hear.) We have also consolidated the stamps and taxes and excite. I have taken upon myself the respon sibility of making some of these reductions. And I have relied with great confidence, while taking this course, upon the activity evinced by the Chairman of the Conso lidated Beard. Mr. John Wood, the most active public 1 servant that I have ever had to deal with. We hive been thus enabled already to make further reductions to the amount of 9,000/. or 10,000/., with the prospect of still greater reductions to the amount of 8,000/. or 9,0004 more. En like manner we have appointed Commissioners to in quire into the collection of the customs. I do not, however, anticipate that any large saving will be effected in the collection of the revenue, because such saving can only be made by doing that which I would be unwilling to to, namely, by lessening the accommodation afforded to the commercial part of this kingdom. The Commis sioners of Customs, in their report, suggest reductions to the amount of 50,000/. Now, when the Hon. Member talks of the extravagance manifested in the collection of the revenue of this country, I must state that he is en tirely mistaken in his impressions. We have heard a good deal of the dissatisfaction that it is said is felt in respect to the course pursued by the different boards in the collection of the revenue, and in the keeping of the public accounts. Let me, however, inform my Hon. Friend behind me that the charge of the collection of the revenue here, as compared with a neighbouring foreign country, is very low indeed. In England the charge of the collection of customs was under 6 per cent. ; in France, however, where they had the advantage of more detailed Recounts, the charge was 12 or 13 per cent. Now, the charge of the collection of the whole revenue of this country is only about 7 per cent.; whilst in France it is 1l per cent. In another neighbouring country. too, where the people were in the enjoyment of more democratic institutions than even in France, where they had almost universal suffrage, the expense of the col lection of the revenue is no less than 43 per cent.— (Here some Hon. Members appeared to express dissent.) Now, mind, I am not dealing with any particular items of the revenue—l am taking the whole amount of the collection of the revenue. If I were to do so, I might mention the fact that though the stamps were collected in this country under 3 per cent., the Post. office revenue was collected at a cost of 59 per cent. It is not, how ever, fair to take any one item or another. I take the whole revenue of this country, including the Post office (which is alone an expense of 58 per cent. in the collection), as collected at a charge -of 7 per cent.; while that of France is 11f per cent., and of Bel gium 43 per cent. The Honourable Gentleman has alluded to the pressure of taxation in this country. Now this is a charge which it is very difficult to meet. I doubt not that the Honourable Member would find it as difficult to prove this assertion as it is difficult for me to answer it. But comparing the incomes of individuals of this country with the incomes of indivi duals in France, it is my belief that taxation presses much less in proportion to the incomes in this country than it does in France. I have, Sir, a long statement which may be reasonably referred to on this subject, but at the same time it is not one of those documents which it is possible to quote for the purposes of my argument. I find that in the course of the lust 20 yeurs the people of this country have been relieved from taxation to a moat enormous extent. The taxes from which they have been relieved, too, were principally those which pressed upon articles of consumption and materials of manufacture.—(Hear, hear.) I am at a loss to under stand, then, the grounds for these assertiona which we have heard now for the first time made, although we have been told that they have formed the subject of grave discussions in associations that have been formed through out the country, and have found the strongest expres sions in public opinion. For the last 20 years there have been repealed taxes to the amount of nearly 20,000,0004, whilst during the same period there have been imposed taxes to the extent only of I 800,0001. This country has thus been relieved of burdens within that time to the extent of 10,000,000/—(Hear)—or very nearly 10 per cent. of those taxes which we had to bear previ ously. This change was, however, still more material than simply the mere amount would lead us to suppose, because, while the taxes imposed were those which only effected property, the taxes repealed were those which affected the actual necessaries of life, and the raw mate rial for the manufaetures of the country.—(Hear, hear.) In making these remarks let it not be for one moment supposed that I am finding fault with these changes. So far from it I must say that I entirely approve of them.— (Hear, heir.) I entirely concur with my lion. Friend in thinking that the absence of taxation up nf every ar ticle of food of lest year was an essential element for maintaining the peace of thi s co un t r y. I am p rou d to say that Ihave borne my part in the passing of those measures which have contributed, in my opinion, in a great degree to relieve the trade and commerce of this country.—(Hear, hear.) But if we really luuk at the great articles from which those duties have been taken off within the last twenty years—when we remember that corn of all descriptions comet in free of duty—that we have meat and cattle free of duty—that the beer-tax his been totally repealed—that the duty upon sugar has been reduced from 275. to 135., more than one- half— that foreign sugar has been reduced from 635. to 205., co!onial coffee from 6d. to 43., and foreign coffee from 203. t ) 6d.—when we, in fact, consider that all the arti cles which the great mass of the population consume have been thus cheapened by the removal of taxation, I think it is hardly fair that we should be met by this new charge of pressure of taxation which is now bursting into life for the first time. Within the last few years we have seen, too, we have been relieved from the heavy taxation which we had formerly to bear in respect to sheep's wool, cotton, flax, hides, glass, and other articles However grievous the existing burdens may be to those who do not like to pay, wo must at all events confess that the taxation upon the sources of industry has been either wholly abolished or consider ably lightened.—(Year, hear.) Before I sit down, I must take the opportunity of referring to the lion. Member for Montrose. I do not agree with that Hon. Gentleman in the propriety of the course which he thinks it right to take upon financial matters. I cer tainly admit, after what has passed last year, that the House has a right, upon some early day this session, to demand a statement from me as to how far the expecta tions which I held out Isot year have been warranted by the course of events since. The Hon, Gentleman may remember that when I asked tho House to renew the income-tax for a period of three years I did express my hope and expectation that at any rate in these three years, if the income-tax were renewed, and certain other taxes were retained, the income of the country would more than equal its expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) This I said somewhere about the early part of the ses• sion, when I think it would be admitted things were so uncertain that no man could answer what a month or six weeks would bring forth.—(Hear, hear.) Towards the close of the session I, however, renewed that as sertion, and with much greater confidence I stated my belief that the t xpenditure would be kept for the future far within the limits of our income. Now, Sir, I am happy to state that the experience we have had since that time has fully borne out my anticipations. Ido not kno et whether Hon. Gentlemen have in their hands the balance sheet up to the sth of January, which is the last authentic document of the revenue and the expenditure of the country. The period which I referred to in my anticipations was that up to the sth April. The period which we have before us goes up to Jan. 5. I stated in August last that I anticipated the ordinary revenue of the country to amount to 51 ,550,000/, the old stores and appropriations in eel to produce 50,000/, the China money 80.000/, making altogether 52,100,0001. The Hon. Gentleman, will, however, see, on referring to the balance-sheet of last year, that what is called or &nary income amounts to 52,422,3381., and what are called miscellaneous receipts, which are the three last items, amount altogether to 118,6564, making the total amount 52,540,994/., instead of 52.100,0004, as I steticipated.—(Hear, hear.) This large sum of China money, which we cannot fairly reckon this year, I estimated at 80,0001. I have, however, re ceived 84,0001. Tnerefore, taking that amount off the account, the income of the year up to January amounts to 52,933,6931. My estimate was only up to April, and was 52,100,0004 There is, therefore, about 800,0001. Inure than I anticipated the revenue of the country up to April would be.—(Hear, hear.) I estimated the ex penditure at 52,422,000/. It his, however, been rather more than this amount ; but we must consider that we were obliged to include in it, the expense of the Kafir war, the naval excess, and the vote for Irish distress, which I could not at Cie time have caculated upon. Excluding then, these three items, which amount to 1.620,0001., the expenditure of the country is 52,563,3484 Therefore, taking the income, after deducting the re ceipts from China, and the expenditure, after deducting these three extraordinary items to which I have re ferred, we find that the income up to January 5, 1849, is 52,933,6934, and the expenditure is 52,562,3481., the difference between the expenditure and the income being, I am happy t) say, a surplus of 370.000/., exceed ing the sum I anticipated.—(Hear, hear.) An Hoes. MEMBER—How much for c,rn? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The amount received from corn is 780,0001. The custom! revenue for the year ending Jan. 5, 1849, exclusive 01 corn, is higher than the income which I expected to re. ceive from the customs for the year ending the sth April, 1849—(Hear, hear)—therefore it is most satisfactory for me to be able to make this statement to the House. I disagree in the principle laid down by the Hon. Mem ber, that I ought to be prepared to make a full financial statement at this period of the session; but I think that the statement I have just made Ought to be most satis factory to the House. I shall, no doubt, lose a small in• come in the course of the year by the cessation of the corn duties. I shall also lose those extraordinary sources of income of which I have availed myself last year— namely, the appropriations in aid and the China money; but, nevertheless, making full allowance for the whole, I still anticipate a surplus. I reckon a loss of 700,000/. from corn. In all probability there will be some re ceipts from this source. Assuming the losses to amount altogether to 1,360,000/, I have yet to remind the House that the proposed reductions in the estimates, comparing this year with last, will amount to 1,447,000/., so that there will still be a balance in my favour between the income and expenhiture.— (Hear, hear.) The income of this year will be better than that of last year. And, unless lam greatly disap pointed. in my expectatidns, the expenditure will be clearly within the income. I cannot, however, with any degree of accuracy state now the actual amount which I anticipated I should have over, but looking to the income, upon which I confidently rely, I feel perfectly assured that it will be fully equal to the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) I can only say that I hope I have now convinced the House of two things—first, that it would not be safe nor wise to reduce the expenditure at once or immedi ately to the amount proposed ; and, second, I hope I have also shown that we are not unmindful of the neces sity of such reductions as are consistent with the real interests and development of all the industrial resources of the country. I hope that the House will express an opinion upon this question, which I trust will be duly submitted to its consideration in the mode it has beet, brought forward. I hope Uit, as far as lam concerned, I have met it fairly. And I hare also to express a hope that the House will pronounce a clear and decided opinion that it is not consistent with the real interests or the country to effect such an amount of reduction as hat. been proposed.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. J. O'CONNELL had waited some minutes after the Right Hon. Gentleman had sat dostin in order that those Hon. Members who took a more immediate in terest in the question might have an opportunity of ad dressing the douse, and of adding anything they could to the very able, lucid, and convincing statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He expressed hie surprise that no more distinct reference had been made to the case 01 Ireland in connexion with this subject, when it was per. fectly clear that Ireland Had muchi to do with the finan cial ;question now exciting such vivid attention in al, quarters. He had no hesitation in declaring his con viction, for instance, that bad anything like justice been done to that country, two-thirds of the enormous outlay there for army, constabulary, and political prosecutions, would have been saved. The army in Ireland, even in ordinary years, cost this country 1,100,0004 per annum, and last ear, of course, very much more. The police expenditure, also, was most heavy ; the cost of political prosecutions extremely onerous. Let Ireland be treated with common fairness, with the barest justice, and the necessity for these classes of expenditure would almost entirely disappear. Hence would accrue at once a most important financial reformation. Again, while England paid to the customs, stamps, and postage de partments of revenue twenty-seven millions a year, Ire land contributed but three millions; yet the rate of taxa tion in both countries was alike, and the population of Ireland was one-third that of England. Why, then, this enormous difference in the amount respectively contri buted to the State? Simply because the lrish people were kept in so impoverished a condition that they had not the means of purchasing customable articles, and had no occasion for the use of stamps in the same way that England had. Let them but bo properly treated; let them but have the opportunity of attaining proportionate prosperity; and in proportion of their numbers they would spend as much as England: with this result, that instead of contributing to the common revenue only three millions, they would contribute nine millions, besides being in a position to bear their fair share of the income tax.—(Hear, hear.) Sir DE LACY EVANS felt it necssary to say a few words, as some professional observations had been made by"the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cobden). He would, in the first place, observe that the Right Hon. Gentleman had pointed out some considerable discrepancies in the statements that had been made with respect to the army, navy, and ordnance—he had shown that 'elati increase had not been 10,000,000/. in the fourteen years since 1835, but 6,000,0001; that, certainly, was a slight flaw in the Hon. Gentleman's budget, although he (Sir De Lacy Evans) was by no means unfavourable to the Hon. Gentleman's exertions in favour of economy. He thought, however, that he had only done his cause some harm by indulging in personal attacks, because he did not see why a reduction of the naval and military departments of the country might not be discussed and reduced to the lowest possible point without the introduc tion of any personal or offensive expressions. He had read in the papers observations made by the lion. Gentleman and his friends in various places by no means flattering to the members of the profession. He would remind the Hun. Member, however, that it was the fault of indivi. dual members of these professions that the expenditure had been increased. It was the fault of that Rouse, and he believed that no army or navy in the world could re• sign itself with greater obedience to the civil orders of the Legislature than the British army and navy. He thought tho Hon. Gentletnan would find it very difficult to prove that the general officers of the array had any thing to do with the rewards and decorations which they received. They had done their duty, and he thought none in that House would deny them their rewards.— (Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the clothing of the army, and had called them a set of tailors.---(Loud laughter.) He did not complain of that on the part of the general offisers, but on ap count of the tailors.—(Renewed laughter.) lie had the honour of representing many hundreds, and they were as loyal subjects and as good supporters of economy as the Hun. Gentleman himself:. And with regard to economy, he would say that ho doubted very much whether any would be obtained by the alteration, of the present system. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken about hired mercenaries, and of marauding ves sels on the coast of Spain. These charges bad been frequently made, and he hal always treated them with t'he' nontempt they merited. The body of troops to which he referred had served under the sanction of th. Government and for the promotion of a policy which was said to be most essential to the interests of then country. He thought they should, under these circum stances, be exempted from these reproachful expres sions. He acknowledged that they had received remu neration, and he thought they had deserved it. He con gratulated the Hon. Gentleman on having received very good remuneration himself.—(tlear.) He did not mean to reproach him with it, because he thought such observations on either side were both contemptible and unworthy.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME was surprised at the introduction by his lion. and Gallant Friend of such subjects into the dis cussion. His Hon. Friend had made no personal reflec tions, and was merely finding fault with the practice of sending British ships at the expense of that country to Spain, and the charge of marauding was not applied to any individual officer connected with that expedition, but to the Government who sanctioned it. He believed no men could have behaved better than the military and the squadron employed on the coast of Spain, and nobody, 'ablest instigated by the most malignant feelings, could suppose his Hon. Friend capable of making persona, attacks. The charge was made against the Government. He had pointed out that the increase of the army and navy had arisen from this system of interference with the affairs of other countries. There was one thing in which he perfectly agreed with his Ho nourable and Gallant Friend, and that was that it was all the fault of the House of Commons and the House of Lords; and he was prepared further to prove that a vast portion of the expenditure authorised by them was perfectly unnecessary. The House was the trustee of the public money, and should take better care of it. He would read to the House an extract from a report of a Committee appointed on the 29th of March, 1817, which was granted on the motion of Lerd.Castle reagh, and he believed there w ere on ly f o hr individual s now in the House who belonged to that Conithittee. No fewer than thirteen reports upon this subject had been made to the House, and in the second of them, which was made in 1817—the Committee was presided over, he believed, by Sir F. Lewis—they called the at tention of the House to the large naval and Military es tablishments of the country when there was every pros pect of a long continuance of peace; and they recommended that those establishments should be reduced in order that the people might be relieved from what they considered to be un due taxation. Why should five or six persons be employed to do one man's work? No person' posses sing common sense would keep six coachmen when one would an swer his purpose as well ; and he main tained that it was the duty of the Government, as pu bli c and paid servants, to employ only that number of per sons whose services were absolutely necessary for the transaction of the business of the country. It must be evident to every person who paid attention to public affairs, that the system of promotion in the army had invariably been kept up by aristocratic influence. Upon a recent occasion ho had referred to official documents in order to show that 1,023 officers had been retained with rank and pay in the army at an annual expense of 127,000/., Solely for the purpose of placing in the hands of the Government the p o wer of granting prom ot i ons. Colonial establishments upon an enormous scale were also kept u p, w i th the same view ; but he wo u ld not, on the present occasion, enter into any details respecting them. He must, however, express his regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not been enabled to bring the public expenditure within the revenue by a smaller amount than 800,0001 during the last year. The deficiency this year was 800,0001., and that on the sth of April, 1848, was upwards of 2,000,0004; b u t, i n hi s opinion, a greater amount might hare been saved if the Government h a d used due and f a i r d i li gence. It had been said th a t a great reduction in ta xation had b een made. True, the people's taxes had been in some degree reduced, but they still had a claim for a further reduc tion of them. They had no right to bo satisfied with the present state of affairs. In 1837 they paid 50,000,000/. for taxes; in 1838, 51,000,000/.; in 1839, 51,000,000/.; in 1840, 52,000,0001.; in 1841, 52,000,0001; in 1842, 5 6,000,0001; in 1843, 56.000,0004 ; in 1844, 58,000,00 a ; in 1845, 57,000,0001. ; and in 1846, 58,000,0001. Thus it would be seen that taxation had been increasing, an d the people had a right to ask relief from its great pressure. Tile House had been told that the people of England were less taxed thau the people - -.of Entice, auci of Bvlgium, but he (Mr. Huine) did not believe it. He considered that no people on the face of the earth were more heavily taxed than the English, especially the middle classes of them. But even if they could bear the burdens that were placed upon them, that was no reason why they sho u ld b e d epr i ve d of h single shilling more than was absolutely necessary. He wished to know under what peculiar circumstances this country was at present placed to require a larger amount of money for keeping up her establishments than she did in 1835 ? In 1835 the national expenditure was only 44,000,0004 and now it was 54,000,0001. He could not trace causes for such an increase, and the matter, he thought, was &- servile.. of inquiry. Hi s H on . F r i en d t h e M em b er for the West i Ruling did not desire to make an immediate reduction in the expenditure; he wished that it might be done gradually. In 1821 an Hon. Member—Mr. Bankes --moved for the appointment of a Committee to con sider the question of the public expenditure, and yet the army establishment of the country was by no means as great then as it was at present. In 1821 the army consisted of 81,240 men ; now it was composed of 113,000. The Committee, in their report, begged to assure his Majesty that they felt deep satisfaction at the desire of the then Government to revise the taxation of he country with the view of relieving the people of the burdens which were pressing upon them. Increased salaries in the public offices was also a question which was prominently alluded to in the report of the Commit tee; and the same matter was likewise strongly observed upon by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Addington in the course of debates in that House in 1803 and 1804. It was then stated that in consequence of the stoppage of cash pay ments in 1797, and an increase in the price of food, it was necessary to raise the salaries of thase who had perhaps 7004 to 1,000/. a year, and those who had 1,000/. a year to 1,0001, but no such causes existed now for raising salaries and keeping up war establishments. It was not, however, of the extent of our military 'orce that he complained. There were other depart ments in connexion with the public service which were equally heavy in proportion. He would mention. for example; the ordnance department. In 1792 the expenses of the ordnance department were 4,848/4 in 1828 the expenses were 151,000/.; and now the expendi ture of that deportment was estimated at 471,0001. for the year. In 1828 a committee, which was appointed to inquire into the subject of taxation, called the attention of the House, in their report, to the enormous increase in the public expenditure, and painted out how, in their opinions, it could be decreased without detrimert to the public service; and the result was that the ordnance force was soon considerably diminished. England was now at peace with the rest of the world, and why could not her military and naval establishments be as safely reduced as they were at that period? With all due deference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must say that be bad heard no answer given to the Honourable Member for the Wtst Riding with respect to his question on the subject of the cause of the enormous increase which bad lately taken place in the public expenditure. In the report of the i Cm i r o ah Committee i e it m e i o g f 18 h th 2 e B i , n i t was hea opinion p a i l n s i o o a o statedf that,the that this country should for some time after the conclusion of the last war keep up a large military establishment, yet they thought that the extent of the force ought to be regulated by the circumstances of the nation. They, moreover, felt it their duty to urge upon the House the expediency of considering the pressure en the finances the country, and the necessity in consequence of re ducing taxation. An urgent appeal of that kind, made after the circumstances were duly weighed, ought to receive consideration and be acted upon.—(Hear, hear.) Of the 58,000,Q90/. of taxes, 28,000,0001. was perma uently applied to the payment of the interest upon the national debt, but he saw no difficulty in making s reduction of 10,000,009/. in the balance of 30,000,0001. His Hon. Friend had, in his opinion, made out a very -trong case, and he should give his cordial support to the motion. Mr. HERRIES called upon the House to remember Ivhat was the motion which was under their considera tion. It was essential that the nature of the motion hould be understood. The question was that they should go into Committee of Supply upon the estimates ; but before doing so the Hon. Member for the West Riding called upon the House to agree to a reduction of the expenditure of the country to the amount of 10,000,0001. They were called upon to reduce the ex penditure to that amount immediately. And considering he manner in which the motion of the Hon. Member had been hallooed on at public meetings he was surprised to see how little interest was taken in it on the other side of the House. The debate was about to languish !'or'svant of supporters when the Honourable Member For Montrose rose, and he (Mr. Herries) did not think that he had added anything of great importance - or of weight in favour of the motion of the Honourable Member tor the West Riding.—(Hear, hear.) The House, having before a perfect knowledge of the condition of the country—having also heard the explanations of that evening—was now called upon to say whether it was practicable to reduce the expenditure by 10,000,0001. It the motion were that they would use all practicable diligence to reduce the expenditure of the country there was no one on either side of the House who would say nay to it. It was a libel upon the House to say they were not anxious to reduce the expenditure as far as they could with a view to the safety and the welfare of the country. By-the-bye, ho was reminded of the com pliments which the Right Hen. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had p aid to the Hon. Member for the West Riding for the tone and the temper with which he had introduced his notion. No doubt the manner of the Hon. Gentleman was calm, and his tone was fitted to the temperature of that House; but he could not help re membering that chat was not the,first time they had heard the projects of the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Ho could not help remembering that, for the last six months; nothing else had been ringing in the -ars of the people of Liverpool, and Manchester, and ether great towns.—(Cheers.) True, they had heard that night no diatribes against the aristocracy—(Heer, hear)—no insinuations that the army was kept up for he sole benefit of the young men of rank and fashion— ( liear, hear) —had been indulged in there. But if the lion, Gentleman was to speak two languages, he (Mr. (ferries) would infinitely prefer that he would be violent here and decorous out of doors—(Loud cheers)—rather Shan that he should be decorous there and violent where violent language might be productive of bad effects. He, r , ,r one, could not join in the compliments which had been paid to the Hon. Gentleman. And while upon that topic be could not help saying that the conduct of the Government upon the estimates during the last session had very mainly supported the agitation of which they had good reason to complain. The estimates were submitted to a Committee—they were abstracted, ss it were, from the cognizance of the House— withdrawn from that full discussion which, in all proba bility, they would have received, and during which such full explanations might have been elicited as would nave rendered it impossible for the attempt to agitate to succeed. He said the House was not used fairly in re gard to the estimates last year. It was understood in the House that the estimates were referred to the Com asittee unconditionally, yet one of the first resolutions hey came to was, that they would not enter into my consideration of the policy of the estimates. But that was the whole question as fir as the House was concerned.—(Hear.) The secretaries for the vari ous departments came down and very quietly took votes on account, the House believing that such a step was only taken until the Committee re ported. The House had been kept in ignorance of the fact that the Committee would not report upon that subject. therefore he charged the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with, in some measure, having created the agitation, but which he had certainly done good service that night in allaying. They had been told that the revenue and the expendi ture were to be equalised —a gratifying announcement. sad one which rendered it unnecessary for him to say more upon the subject until the estimates were regularly berore the House. Tho Hon. Member for the West Riding had provoked a comparison between the expendi ture of France and of England, and had drawn the com parison as unfavourably for England as possible. He thought that House had enough to do to discuss the affairs of our own country, without affecting to criticise the proceedings of any other.—(bear, hear.) He was sorry to enter upon the subject, but he was provoked to it by the Hon. Member. Neither could he altogether regret the circumstance, because he thought a very im portant lesson might be learned by a comparison of the conduct of the two countries in financial matters. If they would review the finances of France and England for the last twenty-eight years, they would see great reason to applaud the English House of Commons and Government, as compared with those of France. He would show the comparative progress of expenditure and revenue in the two countries which had been brought so prominently under the notice of the House; but he begged the House to remember that he was not a volun teer upon the occasion, but he had been provoked into the comparison. He found that in 1820, a year when our army of occupation had been withdrawn, and France had returned to what he might call her normal state, the expenditure was 38,000,000 L English; 1821, 35,280,000 L; 1822, 38,000,000 k ; 1823, was the single exception to all the years between 1820 and 1830, which was the time• of legitimacy—in that year there was the unad vised expedition into Spain, and the expenditure was 44,000,0001.—the other years ranged a little under or a little over 38,000,0001. In 1830, a considerable change had taken place in France a revolution happened, which was expensive.—(Hear, hear.) All revolutions were expensive, and tbose who promoted them ought to tell the people so.—(Cheers.) In the happy year of revolution the expenditure was 60,000,000/.; 1832 and 183$ it was 44.000.0001—it was then successively 40,000,000 L, 41,840,0001., 38,800,000/.. 40,000,000/., 41 600,000/., 42,400,000/4 until in 1840 it rose to 44.000,0001; 1841, 46,800,0001.; 1842, 54,000,0001.; 1843, 52,400,0001.; 1844,, 55,700,0001.; 1847 it was 60,000,000/., and in 1848—another year of revolution— it had arisen to 72,000,000 L These latter years proved that the pressure from without, instead of being econo mical, was wonderfully expensive. A new dogma had been started amongst the gentlemen of the Man chester school, that the more property was subdivided the great r was the security against war, for every pro prietor know that he must bear the cost. Were not these Gentlemen aware that during the whole period of the increasing expenditure in France that subdivision of property had been going on—did tbey not know that such subdivision of property was partly the cause of the war? Much of the increased expenditure had been caused by the expedition to Algiers, which the hig her and more educated of the French people were m uc ho against; but the pressure from without was too s tr on g trn tha g t for them. Let the Hon. Gentleman is-fleet when he again urged the people on to agi tation.up might choose to give the pre ference to the democ ratic He over the monarchic them that if they preferred the democratic principle they must put principle, but when he next ur g ed on his followers, let him honestly tell their hands in their pockets :: Now , then, look at the Mr. HUME—Look at the expenditure of America. English— Mr. HERRIES contiuued—Re could not compare the American Government with the English, because it was impossible to tell what the expenses of a government were when every independent state had an expenditure of its own to bear. He was not going, however, to de fend extravagance or any unnecessary expenditure; but he was going to show that we had been more careful than our continental neighbours, and that there had been nothing like a sudden passage in our expenditure from 38,000,0004 to 72 ,000,000/, as there had been in France.—(Hear, hear.) He found that the income of this country from 1820 to 1825 was 5 6,000,000/., just about what it was at present, During the next five years, from 1825 to 1830, it was 5 4,000,000/. From 1830 to 1840 it averaged 47,000,000/. The expenditure of these years from 1830 to 1840 was the least from the year 1820 down to the present time ; but it was one of these years which had been chosen by the lion. Gentleman as the standard to which the present expenditure was to be reduced.—(liear.) During the next five years, from 1840 to 1845, the expenditure rose to 49,000,0001; and last year it was 54,100,000/. The re sult of the comparison, then, which he had instituted between France and England for the last twenty-eight years was, that in the latter the expenditure was nearly the same now as it was twenty-tight years ago, namely, 56,000,000/.; whilst in France it has risen from 35,000,000/. in 1820, to 72,000,000/. in 1848.—(Cheers.) In reviewing this period of our history, there was an other topic worthy of consideration, and that was the amount of taxes which had been repealed of late years. —(Hear, hear.) He found that since the year 1814 taxes had been reduced or entirely removed, to the amount of 53,394,000/. Against that, 14,0.)0,000/, of new taxes had been created, so that there was a total diminution in the annual taxation within the last thirty five years of no less thee 3 9,000,0004—(fiear, hear.) This was a result of which England had good reason to be proud, for no other country in the world could exhibit anything like a comparison with such a satisfactory statement. It should operate, moreover, as a lesson upon those out of doors, who were cla morous for a substitute of direct for indirect taxation, and should show to them the advantages of a mixed system of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he must say that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding had been exceedingly ill supported. They had all heard of it long since, and that was to have been the night when the battle was to be fought. HoW had it been fought?—(Cheers and counter cheers.) Why, the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly abandoned, apparently by all his friends.—(Cheers and ironical laughter.) Why, nobody rose to second him.—(Renewed laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had certainly manfully resisted the motion, lie (Mr. Herries) wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had re sisted it more firmly—still he had resisted it, and that was something. The Hon. Member for Montrose did not tackle to the motion at all ; he had not stood by the motion. He (Mr. Herries) was for reduction if you could make it ; he was quite ready to go with the Hon. Member for the West Riding, if he would go step by step, and take precautions, but he could not believe that the Hon. Member was earnest in making this motion.— (Hear, hear.) lie did not think that the Hon. Member for the West Riding anticipated any success from this motion. Mr. COBDEN—Wait; wait a little. Mr. HERMES—He hoped they would come to the discussion of these estimates in a different spirit; that there would be an earnest desire to effect the utmost possible reduction—(Hear, hear)—that there would be no thought or wish to take one single step that might not be conducive to that end, that might diminish the strength of this empire, or impose on the military ser vants of the country heavier burdens than they now bore, should they be celled on to do the same work with diminished numbers.—(Hear, hear.) With agitation he would not go a single step—agitation, founded on pre tended grievances without reality, and directed in op p )sition to classes who deserved not, either for their conduct past or present, the obloquy and invective which the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and those who acted with him, had too frequently employed.—(Hear, hear.) Let not Hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Minis terial side of the House impute to those who sat on the Opposition any disposition to repudiate economy. With respect to local burdens, he thought the Hon. Member who introduced the present motion had been guilty of exaggeration, for he spoke of the expenditure for the relief of the poor being 8,000,000/. Mr. COBDEN—I said that the money expended for the relief of the poor, including Ireland, amounted to 8,300,0001. Mr. HERRIES—But in making a comparison with the year 1835, it should bo borne in mind that there was no Irish poor-law then. lie was, however, glad to find that the lion. Member was sensible that there ex isted a great pressure from local taxation.—(Hear, hear.) They had been told that the aspect of public affairs now enabled great reductions to be made; but when the last estimates were under discussion, the Noble Lord had adverted to the circumstance that they were made up prior to the convulsions which had disturbed Europe. Such being the case, he was bound to say that the pre sent state of things, though he hoped that affairs might take the most favourable turn, should induce the great est caution before the strength of our forces was reduced. —(Hear, hear.) They had been told in most emphatic language, that in Ireland disaffection was not extin guished, and that there were reasons fur fearing that the present distress in some parts of that country might possibly create disaffection beyond that which now ex isted. Such was the tenor of reports from the Poor-law Commissioners. Therefore he repeated that they should be careful how they diminished the public forces, who might yet, unfortunately, bare duties thrown on them in addition to those which they at present had to perform, and which the night Hen. Secretary for the Home a.partment had described as extremely onerous and severe.—(flear, hear.) Hr. M. GIBSON thought it was not very consolatory to the landed interest to find the financial leader of the agricultural party holding out such slender hopes of any material reduction in the expenditure of the country, etc/muting to discourage those who had plans to offer— (near, hear)—and throwing some censure upon ;he 6o yernmeut fur the efforts avers they were making to reduce that expenditure. ‘Thetever was to be proposed in the nature of relief to the landed interest must have its foun dation upon a reduction of expenditure —(Hear, hear.) It was agreeable enough to give a popular vote for the rope .1 of this or that tax, but no man could give such a vote honestly unless prepared so to follow it up as to leave a surplus revenue to apply to that relief.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Duke had said, in another place, that the malt-tax was doomed ; but no one was justified in holding out any hope of relief to the tenant-carmera unless prepared to reduce the ex penditure in order to put such advantages within their reach. Did Hon. Geatlensen opposite mean to repudiate?—(" Hear," and a laugh.) Were they pre pared to put in jeopardy the public faith?—(Bear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. lierries) had com plained of the lion. Member (Mr. Cobden), for holding language of one kind in that House, and of another kind in public meetings, being decorous in the House, and violent and inflammatory at Manchester; and it must be owned that it was natural for a speaker to sympathise with his audience, and when addressing those who were apathetic upon the question of reducing public burdens he might feel a heavy weig)lt—(A laugh)—while in ad dressing earnest and animated public meetings be might be drawn into some degree of enthusiasm.— (Laughter.) But it was surprising that the Right lion. Gentleman should accuse the Honourable Member of what he termed democratic tendencies—using the word as one of reproach (though there was no reason why it should be so considered.) The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have laid down as a principle. that the fewer out of a people had pro perty the more conservative was the tendency; or, in other words, that the greater the number of paupers and destitute persons in a state in proportion to its popula tion, the safer its institutions were.--(Oh, oh.) That seemed to be the effect of his comment upon the state ment made respecting the division of property in France. —(Oh, oh.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that he did not know why the subject of local burdens was introduced; why, no part of those burdens could be transferred to the State--there could be no aid from the consolidated fund —except by reducing the expendi ture; and the greater the amount of local taxation in a country the stronger the claim to have the general go veratnent carried on at a low rate of expense. lie (Mr. Gibson) firmly believed that England, with the large por tion of the wants of society in it supplied by local taxation, might be the cheapest governed country in Europe, as far as the general expenses of Government went, and ad hering to our existing institutions.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to answer the Hun. Member (Mr. Cobden), to dispute his facts, or to show (the anus probandi being upon the Right Hon. Gentleman) that the augmentation of the expenditure by 10,000,0001. since 1835 was necessary; but he had talked of some discrepancy, and of 6,000,000/. instead of 10,000,000/. But, the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer amounted to this, that to make a re duction of 10 000,0004 would require a less diminution in the armaments than the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) proposed ; and whereas the Hon. Member said, that a great number of the augmentations of our warlike establishments and expenditure had been caused by special occasions which were passed away, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer not disputing that, supplied more of these specialties, and said that, having created a steam navy, the expenditure thereby caused would be brought to a close, and he spoke of f0r2,300,00ti- stores, packet-service, and steam navy, and suchchttlies, racter, more or less of a temporary and special character, ex and not to be continued as a part of perma nent thei e.nteibson) nos extremely of the country. In fact, extremely sanguine that between his Fheri(end (Mr. Cobden) and the Chancellor of the Exchequeritw like that the expenditure should be reduced would be something managed wed time.— 10,000,0004, if the Government w ere (Laughter.) Why it had been done before, a reduction of alb etween 1827, or thereabouts, and 1835. There 10,000,000/ in a few years en din g with 18 35 , when the since then, lowest p >int was reached—reductions brought about by the uneasiness and pressure of the public; but the attention of the public b ei ng withdrawn, the pr o f ess sions had been dictating to the executive Governm ent, anl having their own w ay in additions to th e establish wants. The lion. M e mber (Mr. Cobden) h a d t h erefore precedent and experience to back him, and was only in viting to a campaign which was successful belore. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, to begin with, said that he wet s going to make reductions now to the extent of 1,500,000/.; then there was 1,100,000 E for the Kafir war, which he said would not occur again ; here were 9 ,500,000/. out of the 10,000,000 l.; and he (Mr. Gibson) did not despair at all. He was very sanguine as to re ducing our military establishments much further, espe cially when he saw how very much men of great autho rity and station and experience in public affairs differed as to the amount of force necessary to be kept to secure the safety of the kingdom, for the contrariety gave reason to hope that there was no settled principle, and that it was merely a kind of haphazard yielding to the professions that caused the expenditure to rise till the public complained. The Duke of Wellington wrote a celebrated letter calling for very large additions to our mill ary expenditure ; ho proposed (for everybody seemed to have an inclination to go back to acme stan dard) that the stores should be compared with what there was in 1804, adding--" I have taken 1804 as the standard, as that was the year in which the invasion was threatened; it was previous to the employment of the armies in the Peninsula and North America; in short, as nearly as possible similar to the political circum stances in which we stand at this moment; excepting that we are now at peace with F rance, we were then at war."—(A laugh.) In 1845 the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-office complained that no country in Europe was in such a defenceless state as England; the Right Hon. Gentleman then at the head of the Govern meat thought otherwise. These things almost made one suspect that this was a party question, and thought • good card for gentlemen in opposition to play.—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) But it was perplexing to any one who, having no professional skill, really desired a guide. But with regard to the armaments of 1835, if they wete so inadequate, and the stores reduced so low as was al leged, how was it that Sir Thomas Hardy, one of the most distinguished men ever connected with the British navy, put his hand as Lord of the Admiralty to all those estimates, and was a consenting party to placing the dockyard, in what was now described by the Secretary to the Admiralty as a state of destitution? When the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) left the Admi ralty in 1834, he left (as it was stated in the evidence before last year's Committee) a memorandum as to the amount of force he considered necessary for the safety of the country; and it seemed that he judged half the present naval force sufficient.—(Hear, hear.) If the stores were so unduly reduced, how was it that the first estimate of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and the Duke of Wellington in 1835 proposed 1,000 men less for the navy than were left by Sir James Graham, and a less vote for stores by nearly 100,000/.?—(Hear.) A Gallant Admiral (Bowles) stated in his evidence that even our present. naval force was not adequate, and that every man whose opinion was worth anything knew it was nothing like what it ought to be. The Right Hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty asked him —and there was a great deal sometimes in a question— " Did you ever know a time when the profession was satisfied with the existing force?" —(Laughter.) He should like to ask what, supposing their force was doubled, they should do with it? What did they do with the large force they now had? He found, from a return laid be.ore the Committee, that last year there were 31 ships, with 8,337 men, in the Mediterranean Sea; and he wanted to know what object connected with our interests was effected by that armament?—(Hear, hear.) Did the knowledge that we had so many line-of-battle ships in the Mediterranean enable our merchant ships to enter any foreign port in better condition than the ships of other countries?—(Hear, hear.) Did they enter any port of Italy or France in better condition than the ships of Ham burgh, or Sweden, or Bremen, or the United States of America?—(Hear, hear.) Did this parade of armaments in the Mediterranean Sea protect our ships from piracy? Were there, in point of tact, any pirates there? He believed not--(Hear, hear)--but, supposing there were, our great line-of-battle ships were wholly incapable of going into all th e cree k s and crannies to which pirates had resort, and would not be of the slightest advantage to the small class of shipping ex posed to the attacks of pirates.—(Hear, hear.) Now, was it true, or not, that the existence of this large fleet in the Medit erranean S ea was the cause of the in crease in the French navy, and did goad on the French to increased exertion to put their naval force on a more effective footing?—(Hear, bear.) In the Pacific, and on the south- east coast of America, which, though formerly divided, now formed one station, there were 26 ships, and upwards of 4,200 men; but what were they kept there for? The late First Lord of the Admiralty stated in his evidence before the Committee that if the Mexican war was over, and if this question and that other question were settled, he did not see why the force in the Pacific could not be reduced to what it was in 1835.—(Hear.) That was just the proposition, to e cer tain extent, of the Hon. Member for the West Riding. The late First Lord of the Admiralty said that when the circumstances which caused the increase bad passed away, the armaments should be reduced. So said the Hon. Member for the West Riding; and, so far as he could judge, so said common sense.—(Hear, hear.) What circumstances, he asked, were likely to occur to endanger British trade and British interests in that part of the world? Was Chili or Peru going to make , war upon them?—(hear, hear.) Ile did not know of any country in the world that had a force equal to that possessed by this country in those seas.—[Admiral Dun das here made an observation that was inaudible in the gallery.] Ile knew nothing about the French force now, but ho knew that last year there was no foreign force adequate to our own in those seas. Even, how ever, had it been otherwise, he would not be of opinion that this country ought to keep up a costly armament because France or some other nation had done so.— (Hear.) When they found their trade interfered with, or threatened, it was time enough to send a squadron in its defence; but do not die from fear of death—(Hear, hear) —do not in a time of peace keep up an expendi ture as disastrous as if war itself were experienced.-- (Hear, hear.) They had heard a great deal about regu lating their force by foreign nations, and that they should keep up as large an amount of men and ships as France and other countries did. There were some specu lative apprehensions lest foreign armaments should be used for the purpose of some sudden attacks, and it was said we ought to be prepared to meet them. Now, just compare the number of our officers with those of France and America, the two countries they were so often called upon to copy. He found from the French navy list that they had onc,tulladmiraloshile in England there were 31; i n France there were 10 vice -admirals, in England 45; in France 26 rear-admirals, in England 72; in France 160 captains, in England 554; in France 200 eom menders, in Eeslanet 87G; in France 600 lieutenants, in England 2,353 : so that there were 931 officers to take' care of the navy, while in England they had 3,931. Then, as r garded the United States, he found that they did not keep a single admiral—(hear, hear)—while England had 150, besides those on the retired list; and there were in America only 67 captains, 47 commanders, arid 327 lieutenants.—(Hear, bear.) He must say he was perfectly at a loss to understand why the Govern ment, when they were making reductions, should confine themselves exclusively to the reduction of men.—(Hear, hear.) lle did not see why they should not keep what forces they had in good plight, and why regiments and ships that were retained should not be perfect of their kind.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see the necessity for having the same number of ships in commission, or the same number of regiments that they now had. He thought that, by getting quit of some of these, they might greatly reduce their expenditure ; but this could not be effected to anything like the same extent by merely reducing the number of men.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Herties) had taunted his side of the House with backward ness in supporting the proposal of his Bon. Friend the Altrnher for the West Riding ; but he felt bound to tell him that he supported his Hon. Friend's motion most cordially, and that he did not re gard it as wild and visionary. He did not expect to carry his object to-day, or this year.—(A laugh.) His Hon. Friend had not asked them to do so.—("Oh, oh!' But he had asked them to declare that their present expenditure was excessive, that the amount of taxation impeded the operations of agriculture and commerce, and that they ought to reduce the annual expenditure as soon as practicable.—(A laugh.) He believed that the present financial condition of the country, in refer ence to its safety from foreign dangers, was one that re quired the deepest consideration, and he asked, if at any lbrmer period, when they were called upon to make a great national effort, they could have done so with an annual expenditure of 60 ,000,000/. ?—(llear.) In 1793, when i: was found necessary, the country did make an effort; but were they sure, now that the Reform Bill was passed, that the people of this country would provide them with an addition to the great amount of taxation they now paid, in order to make one of those great national efforts ?—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the commer cial strength of the country was more important to its safety than the mere strength of its armaments.— (Hear, hear.) He believed that the knowledge on the part of foreign countries that our finances were in a prosperous condition, and that our taxation was not wound up to the highest pitch, would do more to prevent them from invading our territories or interfering with our colonies and trade than any mere demonstration of the number cf ships in commission or of the number of regiments on service. —(Hear, hear.) When foreigners saw so many ships and regiments, they were apt to say, " Never m in d ; t h ey are taxed so heavily that l i b: . „ can bear no mor e; th ey can ' t fight, it's all a mere s har e. " — s our posi tion.—(Oh, (Hear, hear, an d " Oh , oh I") That was, in f act, c the feeling tion.--(Oh, oh !) li e b e li e ved such t o b N o , a nd cheers.) throughout Europe at this moment.—(No, Would Hen. Gentlemen say that .ny Henn.ofGBe,notOteoD,OatOttO was nothing?—(Hear.) Would l as a t b— y u e r( :: an addition of -tax was univ ersal ly refused-- ay2 per cent. to the Conservative and Protectionist Members say, with the recollection that e, and by Conseur.v_ the L , dpeople of this country Wo u ld a t i on t ? n —(l. I formere ar, hear) ti m e,. They were too—that h me p t as . and, it be nsuebrminit the pockets ofthe 'loved them to husband their resources in time of peace —to leave more mon b _ c a m nd erchant sailors to man future navies— tthoei s p a c e r increased taxation ?—( Hear, n so doin y g produce more merchant (flea*, hear)—to leave money in people's pockets that snd th in -r , e r , more manufactures and more steam-engines ships fructi fy dgive te e the coantry.—(llear, hear.) If they exhausted the means and energies of the people in time of peace they prevented them in time of war from being able to give that assistance which otherwise they would be so well able to confer. Much was said of dockyards, and what they could do for us; but they never heard of what could be done by private manufacturers towards making a great national effort.—(Hear, hear.) He so mush relied upon what could be done by means of private nsanufac• turers, that if he wanted a steam-frigate for speedy ser vice he would rather have it built in a private manufac tory than in any of the dockyards.—(Hear, hear.) In stead, however, of depending upon private enterpriee, they had g ene on b u ilding war- s t eamers far beyond what existed in any foreign country, and at this moment they had a greater number, largo and small, than was pos sessed by at y other country in the world. Not only so, bat they had at the same time kept up the number of their sailing ships. He called upon the House then. before they treated lightly the proposition of his Hon. Friend, so recollect that all measures taken up on a large a nd comprehensive scale were generally met in the first in stance as visionary. He hoped, connected as he was with the agr i cu l tural party—(A. laugh)—that they would not tur n t h e i r b acks on the proposal, h u t that they would regard it as one which would ultimate l y lead to th e common welfare of all classes of the com. munity.—(Cheers.) Ha Mr. G. BERKELEY sa id Si r hardy was not in the Admiralty in 1835, as h a d been stated r by the ge m Gentleman. Mr. GIBSON had stated that Sir T. Hardy was in the Admiralty when Sir J. Graham was there; that-he left it in 1834, and was privy to all time reductions (1'73 „ cl y ( s 4w, 11•14%:'...,..'0. were them there. roops were Bruin. wirig ) It iglish that pro were total Leulty ea to 1 Ire- Ha most s last panic night able ; and t on Ilion. arms pra m' at im- there In in- there Eche ice of lying were Dents ►hich that ec'ed ;uine nciud munt 'rope ation ulate men eeli 3ut, Ilse, ban lion ion 4 . . 1 A 7 '~ #:1