The Sun. — London, England, 1819-07-13 00:00:00

ii: x 34,11 can the 'community rot. Want of means of .avrnt .‘ The CHANCELLOR of the Evenr.huna said, it lras parr of his plan that parishes should be allow led to subscribe for the purpose of conveying . abroad persons out of employment. But nnthing like r(bmpulsory emigration was intended.—(Hear, - hear !) Mr. Alderman WOOD said, that there'were'many thousand acres on the Downs, the properly of his Majesty, which might be advantageously bested. lie was astonished that no attempt was Jnade 'o bestow capital on persons willing to cul tirui, Mr. HuTcsussoN said, the difficulty was, that this plan called upon persons to make a deposit who were not likely to have any money. - The CHANCHLLOR of the EXCHECIU BR said, he wished to be understood that the details of the plan were not yet settled. Mr. kVILLtAms said, he was convinced this coon cry pOssessed ‘within itself the means of aff o rding employment to, every person within it. After few words from Sir J. MAJORIBANKS, the Address was agrevd to. SIR THOMAS IIISLOP. Humv, Wished to know• whether any fur ther information bad been received relative to the conduct of Sir Mr. CANNING replied, that no further informa lion had been received. FINANCIAL RESOLUTIONS. • Sir It l'Att tsiELL said, that in MOVing the Or der of the Day for the adjourned debate on the Finance Resolutions, he •did not think it neces saty to enter into a long detail of the financial s t a i e of the country. At the beginniog of the Session considerable hopes•had been held out of the retrenchments of the public expenditure, _which, however, had not been sufficiently ful filled. The Resolutions which he now intended to move, pointed out various branches on Which reductions might be made. One of the most im pot tant of these was the expence of the collection of the Revenue. It it was redneed from 7 per cent. to 5 per cent., 1,200001. would he an nually saved to the public. He begged, however, to say, that there were some of the Resolutions es to which he could not be quite sure that he AS AS accurate. In staring the number of sea• men, he had made it 19,000, instead of 20,000. The statement as to the War Depart ment was also erroneous. But he did not think that even when the mistakes wet e corrected the Chancellor of the Exchequer had much left to ~ o ast of ; for, in the war department, the expen , tore in this, the fourth year of peace, was 40001. '::.re than in the third year of war. The state of the finances required every possible retrenchment, ?Yid it must be a retrenchment on a new princi na,tl attended with very considerable innova tions. For, on general principles, many retrench ments were practirahle, which on the present sys. tent could not take pl ace. This was particularly true with re•pert to the mode of filling up the in. fe , for offices in the revenue. At present he did not think it necessary to go into the subject more ni'nutely. He concluded by moving. the order of the day for reiuming the adjourned debate on the Finance Itesnlutions. _ _ Mr. LUNG said, as the lion. Baronet had not gone very fully into the subject, he (Mr. Long) was relieved from the necessity of going iuto any deep details. He did not accuse the. Hon. Barn. net of intentionally mis-stating any thing ; but with respect to the accuracy of the lion. Baro net's statements, he must say that the returns which the Hon. Baronet ought to have referred to Were on the table of the House; and had been published in every Newspaper in the kingdom.— A s to w h at the Honourable Baronet had said of the expences of collecting the Revenue, it was to be considered, in comparing the . Customs and Excise, that one of these produCed a much greater revenue than the other. The Honour able Baronet, in his Resolutions, gave a scale to show that the expense of collecting' the Customs Duties had of late years increased ; but it so happened, that the difference of ex- Pence which appeared in the Honourable Ba ronet's scale was occasioned by the abolition of fees. One of the Resolutions relative to auditing the Public Accounts stated, that atifficieilt.hvn ,, fit had not been derived from the Act of 1806, which regulated the auditing of ac counts. 8 , ,t if the Hon. Baronet's plan was fol lowed up; instead of a saving, be verily belieVed it would occasion a very considerable additional. expenee, As 'to the Resolution respecting the Paymaster-General's Department, if this were the proper time, / he could easily show that great im provements had been made in the mode of keep ing the accounts. When the immense increase of the business of the Pay OfficC since 17911 was considered, it must he thought that 4,0001. a year was a very insignificant increase in the expenses in that Department. But he begged to be dis tinctly underst nod not to say that lie thought no saving could be made in c ollecting the Revenue. Lord PALMERSTON the alteration tirilitl was int ended with respect to half•pay.— The oath for half-pay'officers was to be framed so as to state that the officer did not hold any mili tary or civil office tinder Government, except those in the Colonies, which might now be held by half- Pay officers. As to the Resolutions of the • Hon. Baronet, lie was sorry, he had not brought up a list of his errata to be printed. At the same time lie was sure the Honourable Baronet's mistakes were quite unintentional. He could only admit the Honourable Baronet's claims to knowledge on fioancial subjects ; he could only admit them with vet y considerable limitations, for he could rot think that any one who, in such a set of Re• solutions, could fall into so many mistakes, could not be well qualified for giving the House much useful - assistance in such matters. As to what. was stated in them about the Commander-in- Chief comparing the expences of that office now with what they had been in 1793, it was to he observed, that in the latter year there was no such office a's that of Commander-in-Chief. The per eon who, in 1793, filled the office which most newly corresponded with the office of Commander• in-Chief, was Lord Amherst, bat his command did not extend to all the troops on foreign stations, t o that no fair comparison could be made of the espenecs of Lord Amherst's department in 1793 with that of Commander-in-Chief at present.— . . But there Was a more important` mistake . OW) this..: It comparing the expenees of the War De partment now, with . what 'they . 'hail been . in 1796, theee was in the Resolntions . of the Hon. Baronet to the amount rifno lest thin 49,0001'.L-- • (Hear, hear !)—ln stating the expenees of that department in 1796, he omitted, first, the whole sum for contingencies ; 2,1, the foreign troops ; and 3d, the fees, which in all amounted to 49,0001, making the 'whole expences of the departments 57,0001. instead of 8,0001. as stated by the Hon. Baronet in his resolutions ; as to the expences of the e3tablishment for arrear accounts, it had been the means of recovering annually awns much ex ceeding its' expenees. The coosoliations which the resolutions proposed in the department of mi litary accounts would occasion a very heavy ex pellee, and create great confusion. Mr. CALCRAFT said, notwithstanding the cen sures which had been cast upon the Resolutions of the Hon. Baronet, the House and the Country were very much obliged to him for having be stowed his attention on this important subject.— As to the censures, it was a matter of form for the Treasury Bench to be up in arms against any proposal for economy. 13 , it notwithstanding all the criticisms on the little details, the main polio had not been grappled' with—nothing hail been said as to the extravavince in the collection of the revenue which had been set forth. lie ridi ctiled the netts,' criticisms which his lion. Friend's resolutions had undergone froM the Noble Lord (Palmerston). While the Geotlemeo on the opposite side talked of saving hundreds, Ice (Mr. Calcraft) and 'his friends talked of their capa bility of saving millions. Talk of economy 1— 'The office of Commander-in-Chief did not ex ceed an expenditure 'of 20001. a year formerly ; now it exceeds 14,0001. There was in fact an excess of expenditure in all the departments at Government ; but those in power were deter mined to fly in the face of econotny. When you talk of an 'excess of expenditure, those in pow , r exclaim—'! Look at the business we do !" But 1 say—Look at the impoverished state of tile country—look at the finance. In giving the vote which he was now about to give, he was discharging the dictates of his conscience. The country Was highly indebted to the conduct of his Hon. Friend for the•propositions now submitted to the House. Dm the Gentlemen on the other side said—" Have we not given you Resolu tions ?" He, for one, did not like the paper kite, or paper system, of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer ! While they were looking at it with every degree of attention, his tax-gatherers were emptying their pockets !—(Hear, hear !) While retrenchment was pretended, no ptinciple of sincerity.was adopted so as to produce the de sired effect. On the Ministers there ought to be no reliance. But he hoped they would endeavour to do sonic:thing during the recess to satisfy the people. Sir T. B. MARTIN made an able defence of the management of the Naval Department. He en tered into a minute detail, advancing calculations for the different periods alluded to by the Resolu tions of the Hon. Mover. The increase of the expenditure had arisen from the introduction of new ditties. The Hors. Member then went into a detail of the business of the various offices in several departments of the Nary. One branch of the new duties was a regular correspondence with every connexion of the particular department throughout the kingdoth. The improvements in the different offices of the Treasm y and Navy Pay Offices had beets very beneficial to the community at large. 'The allotnient system also deserved the thanks of the House and the Public. The tiOn. Birnnet then went into the calculations, proving that the cause of the apparent rise of expenditure Was in consequence of the - new plan for the esta hlisliment, by appropriating fixed and limited itilaries, instead of nominal salaries, as tor- Merly. Every 'persOn's name and salary now employed in the various dock-yardt were brought forward in the estimates for the concur ; Consequently the charges appeared considerably increased. But it) fact there was uo excess of expenditure, but ri groat saving to the public by the new plan. All this had' arisen front the recommendation of thd House, thinking that . fixed safaries would be more beneficial to the public than the usual" honlinal - ones, beSides die' feet, .Bte. Now all fees Were ent off , 'snit! the person who 'acted for the rublic llad - nothing but his limited salary. lii' the deParemeut of the Quartermen, who generally made the return of the work done by different men throughout !he various Crock-yards, there had been a great saving. For merly there bad not Only been thousands, but hundreds of thousands, in the course of a year ex pended, now saved by die new plan, namely, the limited salary. Its the novelties of retoim, a timber-office had been' recommended as a plan of economy ; also la measurer's office.. These two plans had been introductory to vast saviugs. In 1706, the establishment of a chief officer consisted of forty only ; now, in consequence of bringing forward to the public eye all the names, &c. the number bad swelled to 1010. The Honourable Baronet had brought forward Resolutions with an inten tion of criminating Government. So far as the Naval Department 4 was concerned, the Honour able Mover was cettainly wrong ; and he had no doubt but that the charges against the other de partments of the State were equally groundless The Honourable Member, then referring to the evidence which he had delivered before a Cam i»ittee on the subject, read some extracts. — There were certain officers in the dock yards who were once allowed to take apprentices, but now reduced to the limited salary of 6501. be cause the right of apprenticing was taken away from Olen], The Hon. Bart,; (said Sir T. B. Martin) had not read and fully weighed the solid contents of the 50 folio reports, or lie never would have brought forward his Resolutions. It was to be hoped dint tie House would negitive them, as * they were fallacioasly founded. The Hon. Mem ber then read a string of Resolationa, which he had once intended to have heen substituted in place of those now before the House. They were a vindication of the present mode of management of the Nara) Department, proving that the intro duction of limited salaries, in lieu of nominal ones. was a vast saving to the public, although the ac count appeared larger from the necessity of every person's business, name, and salary, being now a . Include.l in the Ettituttles. 1 Fie Hon. Membtri, convi , ced.of the rectitude of observatiott3, poied theitesnliniOne_4 the Hrin. Baronet, ap prehensive that they. might produce icrtgropet 1111- pressions on the public anind. s DAVIS said, 'that the' increase cif etflendi 7 tore in the Secretary ht War'3 office was almost incredible. . In the year 1797, the salaties of :16 clerks cost the public 19,0001.; the year ,follow : ing produced the increase to the amount of 29,0001. and this present year it was at the. extravagant sum of 47,0001. For bringing up s the accounts in arrears the public was charged 31,0001. This plan was begun 1811, and he believed they had not as yet advanced much further ; at least they had discovered no symptoms of approximating to wards a conclusion. Gentlemen seemed to ridi cule retrenchment and economy. But when the ,standing; army incurred an expeuce ot ten million, a year, it became them to think of : retrenchment. If the Sinking Fond amounted to 20 millions in stead of five millions, he would more.cordially have voted for it. He highly approved of the conduct and motion of the Hon. Baronet, and would conscientiously support' it. Mr. F. DoUGt,As treated, with indifference the pretensions of those who opposed the motion by havrug exposed some mistakes of his Hon. Friend (Sir H. Parnell). But accompanied with those ps e r eio lsd mi s takes, the Hon. Baronet had uttered some bitter facts. It world have been very well in those who treated the recommendations of eco nomy and retrenchment with indifference or ridi cule, if the National Debt were now at 200 mil lions instead of 800 There had been no case made out against his Hon. Friend. I'he worthy Comptrollor of the Navy had stated, that the in crease of expenditure in his department arose .trom the particular systems adopted at different periods. But he had tor; of to notice that the expenses of the Navy and Pay Offices had milieu /rpm 47 or - 49,0001. 115,0001., At the former period we had 100,000 seamen, now only 20,000. The Country must see and feel the extraordinary anomalies in Taxation. The last lion. Member had discovered an increase in one department from 16.0001. to 57,0001. (47,0001.) and the lat ter in a period of peace. The Hon. Member la mented that there were no solid causes for the bsliefasf retrenchment on the part of Government. It. was easy. for them ,to form Committees to sanction their expenditure; but the Country ex pected some solid savings. Mr. ROBERT'WARD supported the Government against the allegations of the Hon. Baronet who had submitted to the House the Resolutions now tinder consideration. Mr. HlrTcniNsoza affirmed, that the retrench meets on the part of Governthent had'heen of a pigmy nature, while time expenditure had been of a'gigantic trod an alarmitik description. He re ' commended retrenchment ir. the• Auditor' s. Office at — Lisbon; He was sorry to see so fe et of his Majesty's Ministers present at the close cif 'the Session. The Hon. Member then eondeinned the lavish expenditure supporting the establishMent of St. Helena : the -expellees he estimated at nearly one million, at least far beyond half 'a million. The Hon. Member was decidedly of opinion against the. policy and inhumanity.of the measure. It was not time duty of his Majesty's Ministers to become, or to appoint, the jailora o f Napoleon, merely for time purpose of gra tifying time wishes of other crowned heads.— it was disgraceful to the country. It theme was any chance of Buor..parte reviving his piths lie commot ions, and consequently disturbing the peace of mankind, lie would be the last man to desire. his liberty ; but when the disposition of France was directed towards title great object; to bectimea'detertnioed gt eat nation—and when all the natiOos of Europe were happily bent on peace, there could be mi hazard in affording some so lacement to the fallen fortunes of a great man tiow our priSoner. He admitted that the question now agitated was one of great importance, but he thought the expenditure of upwards of halt a mil lion for the mere confinement of !het by far too great, w hen out finances were in such an impoverished state.- Ile had read printed a oco o lae os, which, it well founded, were injurious to our charac'er as a nation, by the coot - torment of that illusttions Prisoner. He condemeed the cruelty cif Government in withdrawing Irotm him his fa‘ourite medical attendant, when he was ad - rhinit , tering his prolsesional Rid.. He hoped that during the recess, Ministers would exert them selves to diminish the expenditure of this Cala bfishment, exceeding 500,0001. sterling. Sir. 1. CoFFIN had no doubt 1),;t every endea vour would be used to produce the desired sys tem of retrenchment in every department. The CHANCeLLOR of the EXCHEQUER admit ted that the Gentlethan who had spoken last but uoc had produced some novelty of observation by. a reference to the case of Bounaparte.— (Hear, hear, hear !)--The expenditure of that establishment did not amount to any thing like a fourth of what had been mentioned by the Honourable Member.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—At first the expenditure was defrayed by the East India Compay, who made their charges to Go verutnent. Instead of more than 500,0001. a-year, the whole expence of the last three years had not exceeded 3'or 400,0001.—(Hear, hear, hear 1)- 7 . With regard to the Resolutions now submitted to the House, they were totally erroneous. and lie hoped that the House would not agree to them. He confirmed the observations of the Honourable Baronet (Sir T. B. Martin), that the apparent in crease of the accounts arose from the adoption of limited salaries, and the abolition of all tees, &c. The Right Honourable Member concluded by moving, that the present question be adjourned to thiS day three mouths. , _ Mr.GottooN thought it en illiberal way of con cluding, that if his tlon. Friend (Sir H. Parnell) was wrong lo thousands, he might also be wrong; In millions. The Gentlemen, therefore, on the I opposite side triumphed on the occasion. " Bui it is their business to support profligacy !" General Nitres,. we believe, spoke to order, •nd said, that if such imputations were applied to him. he would not allow them to pass in silence. Mr. Goer:iota meant no offence to any one. He only'meant good homotiredly to notice ludicrously the pretended cause of It iumph of those ie power. In the beighth of his jocelarity, he commended the affability and good humour of the Chattesllor a 4 .-. • arid, of the Exchetirter, who,- three or tour yea rs had come forward with very grave assurrtnetiltil,44C be . had passed a very .unpleasant (Laugh.)- 7 --Bp ' t he hoped that the recess,. :Whitt lie Wai now about to enjoy, would be p ea" agreeable and-pleasant to him.—(Littglij there Sir wasHENaanY ied. ney. All that he (Sir Henry) had said wasb°rd el: A t r il a t4 v% L. a L ti r t e 1 111' 1 of e h e in p s t i t s b i l e iC i 011 : n . °1111 . out . by the' Committee of Finance. He bad 'lanced nothing intentionally erroneous. He perfectly convinced of the propriety of the i "'"; solutions, that *he should renew tie subject qty Session of Parliament. • Lord PALMitas - roN explained. lie meant " ( i offence to the Honourable Baronet in any exrreg('i sions which he had used. If th e one si de the Home thought themselves tothpetent t° ,. 9 l ti attack, those with whom he had the honour tow., might also think themselves comp -, -tent tv tbOr d defence. The War -Estimates had fOrmerly [ge e too low. The consequence was, that the numb % of additional Clerks to make up - the accou nt ' s • arrear had produced the additional- expendit u ' It was not true that they had no - - advancedheYl, I the year 1811 ; the accounts, of 1818 'vel a coa t irlete, and ready for examination. His Lordsb'c denied that the Secretary at War had any either in the cumber or salaries of the 0 043 --, the War Office. lie could only make a repre Sel.# tation to the Treasury. Colonel DAVIE's explained. After a few words from Sir G. Co L ßuat; lot a Mr. HuTcHtNsoN, theft sr Itosolor ion nasse,o, and the que3tioil put on the Amendment, that / 114 debate be adjonroed to this day three m onth" which was ;weed to without a division. STOREKEEPER GENERAL. Ott the motion of Mr. liuma, the adjonrnell debate on the Storekeeper-General's Department was resuinctl. Mr. Hung was entering into exttnsive details' when Sir JOHN MARJORIBANKS ECM/irked that the re were no forty Members present. Mr. 11 a hoped that as be had given way ", Public Business, the Flan. Baronet would ou* press his objection , out of delicacy. Sir J. MARJOEIBANKS Said, that the (resa t '," ought, to have come on eight days ago. He 5 3 '" tto indelicacy in the course which he was pal' suing, but much in bringing forward Resolutio nd like the present; at a time when it was impossilad they should be fairly discussed. He therefo re moved that the- House be counted. The Howe was then counted, and only thirty' one Members being present, an Adjournment t o ` : 14 place till to-morrow. .10NDON MA It ECT EIS: PRICE OF 1111.EAD 'PHIS WEEK. rbe highest price of the best Wheaten Bread throaglo tic J. the Nletropolis is stated by the principal Bakers to be 113 i the Qua' tern Loaf—Soule Bakers sell the Quartera lA"' from one penny to two-pence lower. IU. uz. (3 I• 113. 0 _,;' Peck Loll to weigh ..' 17 Quartern Loaf to weigh 4 Half ditto.. ditto .... 811 "Half Quartern ditto .- ‘1 PRICE OF HOPS, per Cwt. Jots 10. Islvw Bags. New Pockets. r ; Kent —.51 10s tool Os a 61 105 I Kent.. 61 tis a 61 ISi to 7 1 ' 5 ,, tillsSCX.. Si 5s aolOs a 61 t Sussex 31 las 61 '6, to 61 1 „*; * Essex..... 03 to 01 Os Essex: 61 Us 01 Os to 7 1 " Farnham, seennil, 71 74 - to 81 Ets—tine,"9l' as tol 01 Os - Foreign Pockets, 54 . , , s to 1309—s.—Duty, 11040001. NEWGATE AND LEADENHALL MAti.KETS. By the , Carcase. Beef 3s 3cl to- 4s 6..! Veal 4 Mutton 4s 6d to 5s "4' Pork 4s ff o , u i l l t t. 6 6 : c C fl a Lamb, 53 44 to 6s Od. ST.• AMES'S IL AY MARKET, JULY 10. Hay Oj 61 Cs od to 71 Os Od---Avvrag.e, 61 104 , Straw Clovcr 7l lOs Ott to Ot Os Oil-Average, 04 0 , '• WHITECHAPEL HAY MARKET. Hay Oj 51 lis Od to 61 16s od-Average, 61 43 A N:w ditto Straw 2l Ito% Or: to 81 6s 0,1-Averagr, 31 9^ (I . t i Clovvr 7l 7s Cid to 81 Bi, Okl--Averaic, 71 17 6 , .....--- ' RAW HIDES. Best Heifers & Steers, per st. Ordinary ..,..c2s od t o es 4 4s i s ba to ss Ot! Market Calf .. each .. 85 d 4 Nliddliogs 2s 44 to 2s CO Eng. Horse Os Od to 0 5 "n- SHEEP SKINS. Polled Os Od to Os 0,1 1 Shenrlings.... 12,1 to OS °4 Downs. Os OLI to Os o,li Lanins is _ PRICE OF LEATHER. • . . Botts, 50 to 561T)s each per lb I Sil s o 91 3 Ditto, s(i to Willis each . Dressing Hides 15d to 1 - ,'LL . Pin e Coach Hides 1 7 41 to I 9 Crop liiee-s, .;;'i to 401bs for cutting • 1514 to 17 , 1, Ditto 45 to 501bs Calf Skins..3o to 401bs lid to 2sia Ditto 5O to 70)bs Z e d to 354 Ditto 7O to tiOlbs es,l to-33 4 - Snail Seals (Greenland)... ............. 2ml to .24 ,1 Large ditto per dozen ..60d to so Tanned Horse 'Hides ' led - to :9 3. Spanish Horse Hides l6d to e__:41....,1 PRICE OF RAW FAT, per Stone of siII.—JULY 9. .46• sta led by the Tall. Alelter.s. St. James's Nlarliet .. 3s 10All Nhitechapel Market 3s 101f.1 A vezage _els stated by the Ilatchers . i . St..laines's Market Ss 1041 Whiteellapel Market 3s 10 , 1' Clare Marl:et Os 04 . , Neargatte Market —Os °"' skVel'age SOAP, &c. per 1121 b. Yellow Soap l‘ lot tied.. Cord . • 1 0 1i: Graves Good Dregs PRICES OF TALLOW Toren Tan. 67s tii; VcHOW Russia 67s Ori —s Od ‘Vllite ditto .. Soap ditto.... Os Oil Od Nlultiltg Stott 5 , 1 s ud —s Oil Ditto Rough.. —s utt ais Od PRICE OF CANDLE`;, fr , Price of Candles, per dozen, t do;wit allowed I oin Tallow Cltatllers' c.2s . Ott—Moulds, - 139 6d—Gd Pe t or rea.tly money. COAL NIAIiKET, JULY 11. Ships at Nlarlict. Ships ,old. al I Newcastlo to 40s S j, 12 Sunderland . T .. 31s. 9d. to 399. au' On the ?ith inst. the „Lady of John Clementson, Esq., of Great Queen-street, Westminster, of a stilt-horn daughter._ MARRIED.. - - (to Saturday last, at Ctainlderwell Church, Mr. John Earl' Of tlie Keot-road, y114114)0-and glazier, to Caroline, sre" (htt4liter of the late Chavies Ilarioer, Esq. of Wine-Oth er ' court, Fleet-street, Solicitor. DIED. ' ' - At his house in Stozne-street, Chelsea, on the 10th ing t ; .I,lmrs flay, fvrokerly Sp,aker of th e Hoch House ' l4 Aisernbly of tL. Island of Grenada. LONDON: Printed hy J. B. CAP,STAIRS, of No.p, Gre Orrom:-.3trvet, Qoecri-squarel and putillsln.d4, SCRIPPS, .of No. 7, South • ',loltors•-street,. at 'THE. tit O; No, it, Strand ; where - Adreztisements, W ert . Letius, Ace, (punt-paid) must be addr‘ssed. r