The Sun. — London, England, 1828-07-12 00:00:00

amount of the surplus, or three millions a year, he was acting at least equally for the benefit of the public creditor and of every public interest. Now, having stated the Income and Expenditure of the year, and the means by which he proposed to apply a surplus revenue, it only remained for him to call the attention of the House to the state of the Sup plies and of the Ways and Means. The House was aware that they had already voted for the services of the present year—For the Army, 8,049,938/. This was less than the vote of last year by 145,566/. For the present year the House had voted for the - Navy 5,995,965/. This was less than the vote for the same service in the last year by 129,885/. The Ordnance for the present year had been voted at 1,597,1961., being a reduction, when compared with the vote of last year, of 52,7761. The Miscellane ous vote for the year 1828 was 2,184,9611., which was a reduction of 90,0711. when compared with the vote of the miscellaneous service for the last year. The total reduction, therefore, of the present year amounted to 418,299/. To this sum they must add the vote of credit of last year for the service of Portugal, amounting to 500,000/., and which would not be required any longer. This made a total reduction, in favour of the present supplies over those of the preceding year, of 918,299/. The whole vote for the present ye\ar, including the in tercet upon Exchequer Bills, would be 18,628,060/. He would now state to the House how he proposed to provide for these payments, or, in other terms, the Ways and Means by which he intended to meet the Supplies which the House .had voted to his Majesty. In the first place, he was in the pos , session of the surplus of the Ways and Means of the antecedent year. This would be found to amount to %52,0001. The Government were to receive from r!t. East India Company, on account of Half-pay :aal Military Pensions, the - sum of 60,000/. On account of the re-payment of Exchequer Bills, issued e.ith reference to public works, he had to receive -eO,OOO/. The annual duties upon Sugar, for the yeee 1828, he estimated at 3,000,000/. The Trus -,F. of Naval and Military Pensions would pay for the half year, to the sth July, 1827, 2,134,630/. 'i here remain of the Ways and Means, made up by , urplus of the Consolidated Fund, 10,190,000/., end Ways and Means of 1827, remaining to be ap plied to the services of the year 1828, amounted to the sum of 3,012,650/. The total Ways and Means according to the above statement, would amount to 18,869,280/. At the end of the last Session of Par• tiament it was propozed to make up the deficiency of the Sinking Fund, by an addition to the Un tinded Debt, by means of an issue of Exchequer These were to be met by a credit on the Consolidated Fund. If the Consolidated Fund were to be carried up for the necessary period these Ex chequer Bills would have been discharged; but Mr. Canning stated to the House that lie intended to Augment the Unfunded Debt by three millions, the amount of the bills issued. The amount of Exche quer Bills to be voted would now exceed by three millions the amount that was outstanding in the course of the preceding year. The Committee and the - House would see that this was no new creation of debt. These Exchequer Bills had been in the market already, although they were charged on a fund confessedly inadequate to provide for them. They were now to be provided for by being ex changed in the ordinary course of such transactions. The result was, that the total Ways and Means were what he had already stated them, viz. 18,869,2801. This was to meet the expenditure or the supplies of 18,628,0601. Having thus brought before the House the Income of the country for the present Year, the amount of the Supplies, and also the amount of the Ways and Means by • which those supplies were to be met, he did not know that there vas any further necessity for him to addr es s the House. He should certainly forbear from entering into -any particular explanation as to what might be the resources or expenditure of the country in fu ture years. From this he should abstain. He could not, however, content himself with sitting ,iown, without expressing the very great satisfaction which he felt in the general state and appear zrce of the country. He would look, in the first place, at the present condition of trade. - The increase of exports in the present year, as cum pared to the last five years, was calculated to excite astonishment at the exertions of the Ma nufacturing interests of the country. If he re ferred to the shipping interest, the view was equally cheerful. The augmentation of employment in the shipping interest was large, compared with the antecedent year. It fully corresponded with the increased amount of articles exported and. im ported. He observed smiles upon the countenances if some Honourable Members opposite. He knew that the increase and prosperity of the shipping in ;ere at had been controverted, but he thought the argum ,;4its used by a Right Hon'. Gentleman on his atle of the House (Mr. Hiakisson) had sufficiently and effectuai:y proved an augmentation of the ship ping of the country compared with and correspond ing to that of the exports of British manufactures. —(Hear, hear.)e--If he looked to the comforts and prosperity of the people, the view was equally cheer ful and satisfactory. He should say that the Excise revenue afforded a picture -the moat gratifying it was possible to conceive. • Every article which the lower orders were in the habit of consum ing, ail that related to their comforts and -en joyments, had increased in the quantity used to a great, and, he would add, a most satisfactory degree, On candles there had been an increase in the -pre sent year, as compared to the antecedent year, in the nroportion of 4 per cent. (A laugh.) To be sure the did not exactly mean to_ say that candles were not used as much by'tbe rich as by the poor. On paper, an article to be sure AA much, if not more, used by the rich or middle classes than by the poor, there had been an increase over the consumption of last year to the extent of 20/. per cent: Upon printed goods, the inereased consumption was in the proportion of -24 per cent.; upon spirits nine per cent. In short, he could say with equal confidence and satisfaction, that every article nosier the head of Excise had received within the last half yeas a considerable augmentation, varying from 4 to even 95 per cent. This related -particularly to the ar ticles most consumed by the lower orders. This was most gratifying in every point of view, for it showed a positive good, the pernoval of evils, arid a prospect of increased happiness to the bulk of the people. He was happy to say -that this was the case, not only in this of the IJ - cited Kingdom, which was said to bi a favoured ;Art, but also in the sister country—Treland. — When lie thus contemplated the great and general improve ment of trade, the immense increase of exports, the extension Of manufactures, and the improved cont forts of the people, indicated by the Excise—Whenhe contemplated th e increas e in the Aseeseed Taxes, could he hesitate to say that he had the strongest grounds to anticipate a progressive melioration of the state of the country ? Was he net fully justified in congratulatin g the House upon an augmentation of i'evenue, and upon what appeared to him-was in finitely of greater value--an - improvement in the comforts and prosperity of the people—the -surest harbingers of wealth and stability ? The Right Hon. Gentleman having sat down, The CHAIRMAN put the question, " Ra-solved that it is the opinion of the Committee, that, `towards making good the supplies, there be issued the sum of 3,012,050/. out of the Ways and Meanse in Exche quer Bills, raised for the service of the - year 1827, and now to be applied to the service of the year 1828." Mr. MABERLY expressed his opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman had dealt with the subject fully and fairly. Mr. Canning was the first man to state boldly that the Sinking Fund was created by a system of borrowing, and it was satisfactory to find that we had at length arrived at a plain understand ing of the subject. He (Mr. Maberly) was happy to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite declare that this delusion was not to be continued. From this reason it was fair to anticipate a more beneficial arrangement under his influence. From 1792 to the present, the Sinking Fund had never been ash to it had beeu violated in ;misty ileitauces, and it was therefore a delusion. But the Sinking Fund had not only been a delusion—it had been an actual loss to the country ; he would not state the sum to - which that loss amounted, because upon this point there was a great variety of opinion; he would state, however, that it had operated most injuriously. The loss by annuities had also been very great ; to 1828, there had been annuities granted to the extent of 36,49.5,000/. and the injury to the country from this source had been immense. The Howse ought to have the accounts fairly before them, in order that the system might be exposed so fully as that no Mi nister would be hereafter induced to follow it. From 1816, many unnecessary establishments had been kept up, and we had expended according to the lowest calculation, three millions per annum more than we ought. According, then, to a very just estimate; since 1816 no -less than •65 millions had been unnecessarily squandered. It was, therefore, no wonder, with this unnecessary expenditure of 65 millions, if we were deeply in debt, and if a great burden of taxes were placed upon the people. These were the great errors of our. financial system—a sys tem- which he and his friend had long deprecated without finding much support. • They now, however, found the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, agreeing with them, and although they could never obtain any thing like a majority, by all their talk, they were now likely to obtain a very large one, because the Committee had recommended, and the Minister had taken a more liberal view. With respect to the Finance Committee, he would observe that that Committee had looked narrowly into 'the state of the country, and, in reference to their report, it was to be observed that the House had decided against any reduction in the army, the navy, and the ordnance. The public would thus see at once that the House had no intention to re duce the expenditure; it was therefore right in him to express a hope that next year there would be, from time to time, repeated propositions for the reduction of the taxes. Mr. LEYCESTER was glad to find that the glorious piece of nonsense of paying with one hand what "*as received by the other was to be done awn)' with. Mr. HUME said, it was now five years since he and other Members contended against the system which was now to be done away with. They en joyed the complete triumph of knowing that the Right Hon. Gentleman now admitted the fallacy of that system. He would contend that the Sinking Fund never hadbeen, and never could be, productive of any thing but loss to the country ; and further that no State had ever yet profited by trafficking in its own revenue. The House would, pethaps, recollect that this was no new doctrine with him, for no Budget had ever been introduced, since he had had the honour ofa seat in the House,without his having de • vied the correctness of the views taken by the respec tive Chancellors of the Exchequer, of our income and expenditure, and of the operation and nature of the Sinking Fund. Having, for the purpose of forming a correct view of the subject himself, obtained from the Treasury all the necessary documents from 1816 to the present time, he had availed himself of the assistance of a gentleman eminently qualified for the office (Mr. Marshall), and had laid before the Fi nance Committee the result 'of their labours. (Here the Hon. Gentleman pronounced a warm eulogium on Mr. Marshall.) Notwithstanding the correctness of his statement, would it be credited that his Ma jesty's Ministers refused to enter into his compari sons of the profit and loss in each year, and yet they now came into that House with one of the blindest Reports ever laid on the table of the House of Com mons, purporting to be a financial statement ? He should prove that from 1817, we had had a surplus revenue, and that consequently there had been no necessity for borrowing in the interim a single shil ling. From the Ist January, 1816, to the Ist Ja nuary, 1828, we had had a surplus of 35 millions. By -the . -Finance Report -brought forward by the Right Honourable Gentleman it appeared that upwArds of 29 millions remained unaccounted for, and yet Ministers had refused to go into any inquiry, and without supporting their own statement or defending their refusal by any document whatever. Having, a surplus revenue, what would any Hon. Gentleman think when he should hear that we had sacrificed 106,000,0001., in order to keep up the Sinking Fund? By one single operation alone, he would show- that the -country had lost upwards of 1,000,0001. p©r annum, Wing the interest of a ca pital of 2.5,000,000/., by which sum he would con tend the debt ought to have been reduced. The loss occurred in this way :—ln 1824 and 1825 Go vernment issued 8,000,0001. of Exchequer Bills.— The produce they handed over to the Commission ers of the Sinking Fund, who applied it to the pur chase of 3 per cent Stock. Those Exchequer Bills bore an interest of 3/. .ss. 6d. per cent.; the conse quence was; that when they came to be funded, Go vernment was obliged to give in lien for every one of their) 1071. in Four per Cent. Stock, thus losing - 18 s. 10d. per annum in every 100/., making on the whole transaction a loss to the public 012,550,0004 in Three per Cent. Stock. He should next come to the 13,000,000/. borrowed of the Bank. At the period when that operation was proposed he had opposed it, and could now show that on 13,000,0001. in the course of the seven years that had elapsed since the bargain had been concluded, the country had incurred a loss of upwards of 1,000,0004 The House would recollect that in 1822 the late Mar quis of Londonderry and Mr. Vansittart had brought forward a plan of borrowing 13,000,000/. for the purpose of keeping up a fund of 5,000,0001., and they effected it in this way ;—They granted to the Bank an annuity of 585,740/. for forty-five years, for which they were to receive, in sixteen regular in stalments, the SUM of 13,089,419/. (Here the Hon. Member proceeded to state the payments that had been made by the Bank pursuant to that agreement; contending that, by it, a loss to the country would accrue, on the 10th of October in the present year, of 1,116,8601.; and that, for every 100/. issued, the public had received only 73/., while with the pro duce, stock had been purchased back at 90per cent.) He had heard that, on the Stock Exchange, the credit, of the country was supposed to rest on the Sinking Fund; but he would maintain that _public credit would be better supported by applying only . the surplus revenue to the reduction of our debt,. without borrowing, or lending, or any other species. of hocus pncus.-4A laugh.)—He would call upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to state what proportion of the 1,500p024 referred to by him was to be up plied' he reduction pr the Funded Debt. On the -51 - 1 of July instant, the state of the Public Treasury was such, that the dividends could not have been paid to the public creditor had not the Bank con sented to advance to Government,B,343,ooo/.. He considered that the connexion of the Government with the Bank was fraught with consequences' ruin ous to the country, and that the whole of theim mepse sums paid to the Bank in the shape of bonuses might have been saved. The Bank held,- at the present momciat, in Exchequer, Bills, 3,000,0004 ; 6y000,000/. they bad purchased ; 11,000,000/. Dead Weight; besides 8,000,0004 they had just advanc ed (as we understood); in all 28,000,0004 of eapi. sal. Capital, did he say ? What had the Bank to meet the demands upon her? The Bank re-issued 21,000,060/. in Bank - notes. They held deposits of priVate individuals ID the amount of 6,500,0001., and of deposits from the public departments - 4,000,000/. more; and of that sum 2,000,000/. were perfectly en gaged, exclusive of 2,000,000/. laid opt on mortgage. I-12 should ask, conseepiently, how could the Bank maintain herself under these circumstances against a run ? He would repeat that all our pecuniary los s in times past, and that might happen to us in future, had arises, and would arise, from the connection of G overnmen t with the Bank. He highly approved of the recommendation of the Finance Committee, that all the real surplus should be applied to the re duction of our debt; but he should prefer its appli cation, to the reduction of ditties on articles neces sary to our manufactures. In a word, he objected to the application of 3,000,000/. to the reduction of our funded or unfunded debt, if it could be applied : to other objects with mote benefit to the country. The Finance Committee had condemned t 4 ing system of expenditure, yet the Government con tinued that system. The entire of the surplus re maining, 500,000/.; was absorbed by the payment of the life annuities, so that the whole revenue of the year was exhausted; and there remained no surplus for the redemption of the debt. Where then was the use of borrowing a million of money for redeem ing the debt ? The delusion which he anticipated last year was now realized; the report of the Fi nance Committee proved his anticipations to be cor rect. Mr. Canning, in his statement of last year, made an error of more than one million. Was this a state of things to be borne ? Ought the House to allow itself to be gulled by such statements from the Treasury ? The Budget of 1826, by Mr. Robinson, was still more defective; though great praise had been bestowed on its supposed accuracy. This he should show another time. Scarcely one Treasury statement of the finances was correct. After a few other words, the Hon. Member eoncluded by apo logising for having trespassed so long on the time of House., Mr. MONCK spoke under the gallery, and was generally inaudible. The Hon. Member was under stood to condemn the Sinking Fund. Mr. WARD said it would net be just in the Go vernment to neglect the interests of the fundholders while the landed proprietors got a Corn Bill so ad vantageous to their interest—equally advantageous to the fundholders was an 'efficient sinking fund. He (Mr. W.) did not wish to embarrass Govern ment, but was anxious to state, on the part of the fundholders, their hopes that the expectations ex cited in them by the professions held out would not be disappointed, and their interests. overlooked in the financial arrangements proposed by the Govern ment. It had been strongly urged by some Hon. Gentlemen, that the country would be in a better situation if no sinking fund existed. He who as serted that, virtually said that it was better the country should be in debt instead of out of debt.-- (A laugh.) Mr. HERRIES' said, the Hon. Member for Montrose had accused the late Chancellor of the Exchequer of a great inaccuracy in the estimate he had made last session. The Hon. Member had said that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had misled the House to the extent of 5,000,0004 in his esti mate of the probable amount of the income of the year. But that estimate had proved most accurate for there was only a difference of 50,0001., between what was really raised and what he had anticipated. Mr. Canning, in all these computations began by stating that he excluded all receipts and payments, which had nothing to do with the expenditure of the country. With respect to the Sinking Fund, none were more anxious in the Committee than the Members of the Government belonging to it, to arrive as soon as possible at making a true and real surplus of the condition of its existence. It was with regret that the Finance Committee had pro posed to reduce the Sinking Fund from 5,000,000/. to 3,000,000/. He concurred in that proposal, and if even 3,000,000/. actual surplus could not be raised, he should say, make the Sinking Fund even lower than that—in short, never have the Sinking Fund larger than the actual surplus.—(Hear.)—H e could not agree with the notion which some seemed to entertain, that the Government was pledged to the public creditor to keep up the Sinking Fund. The only point in which that doctrine would hold was with regard to the three and a half per cent. stock, of which the Parliament was pledged to make a reduction of one per cent. With that exception the public creditor had no more claim upon the Government than every other subject had. The Hon. Member for Montrose had brought seve ral weighty charges against the .Finance Committee. He had accused it of being unwilling to receive certain statements from him. He (Mr. Herries), for his part, was always .willing to examine them, but their length and complicated nature rendered it impossible, that, with the little time there was to spare, any definite result could have been come to. Besides, the Hon. Member ought to remember that he himself was unwilling to follow the statements made by others.—(A laugh.)—Nevertheless, any paper he might think proper to produce should be investigated by the proper persons, and hereafter a conclusion might be come to. The Hon. Member supposed that they had lost some undiscoverable sum of 29,000,000/. Now, the bare statement of the sum ought to have been, he thought, a different inducement for the Hon. Member to have looked through his papers. On a former occasion the Hon. Member had made a statement with respect to an unaccounted sum of 36,000,000/., which was not unacompanied with some sly insinuations of its hav ing got into the pocket of Ministers.—(Laughter.) —But these thirty-six millions, on going through the account, were found to be owing to the omis sions of those who prepared the returns on which the Hon. Gentleman had made his calculations; 19,000,000/. of these millions, a pretty large sum in the account, were found to be so many Navy Bills which had been issued, but the return gave no ac count of their expenditure. Another sum the Hon. Gentleman had omitted, was the 4,600,000/., being the British loan to Austria. There were other omis sions discovered, which made up the exact sum sup posed by the Hon. Member to be lost, so that that proved the remainder of his account to be correct, and that he had, in fact, only made a mistake of the amount of 36,000,000/. —(Laughter.) Mr. HUME made the statement six years ago, and this was the first time he had beard any expla nation bf it. Mr. HERRIES replied, that the paper which gave him these facts had been made up some time, but had lain by forgotten till the present similar ex. traordinary statement of the lion. Member made him brush up his memory. With respect to the unfunded debt, he begged to say a few words. Statements had been made on the other side of the House, as if his Right lkin. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had been understood to say, that from this time the surplus revenue, if any, which was to be applied to the extinction of the debt, was to be exclusively applied to the redemption of the unfunded debt. Now, with whatever different views that supposed declaration might have been re ceived, he would venture to say that such was not his Right Hon:Friend's statement : he only stated to the House the recommendation of the Finance. Cortmittee that hereafter the surplus should be applied to the extinction of the unfunded, as well its the funded debt. Circumstances, at one time, might make it advantageous to apply the surplus of revenue to the reduction of the funded debt ; at others to that of the unfunded debt. If he :could feel himself at liberty to . express an opinion oil this subject at the present moment, he should say this was not the time to apply such a fund to the reduction of the unfunded debt. (Hear, hear.) Looking at the Right Hon. Friend,the Ch ance ll or .of present state of our cu rrenc y , wh ich really (as he thoughtcli l etter had sufficiently demonstrated) . was the lix such as should effectually , dispel all fears about the operation of the Small Notes' Bill; it must . be allowed, that 'however favourable its existing condi tion, the public mind was in' that feverish State upon tile question, that it would lie extremely 'unwise to adopt any measure 'Which, 4e that of a su dd en ima extensive reduction in the unfunded' debt, might produce a great altera tion in the a mount and system of the currency. Having given his best attention to all which had fallen from his Right Non. Friend this to apply the surplus or ex cess o f reve evening, he conc luded that his Ri ght Hon, Friend mutative to the reducti on o f t h e f un d e d, n n l e e s a d b i s o p v o e s e e x d p in preference to that of the unfunded debt ; and he (Mr. }Terries) concurred with him on this point..-' The Hon. Gentleman opposite had'exnressed himself strong ly against a Sinking Fund, and for the conver sion of a portion of the permanent annuities. But the Hon. Gentleman should remember that, ter minable annuities were not very favourite stock in the market. For the last thirty years, in various States of Europe, when a Government had: been de sirous of raising a loan, it had granted a greater or less amount of such annuities; but in all cases they had been disposed of to the purchaser on terms ex tremely unprofitable to the Government. Our own Goveriantrit, therefore, had found it more expedient to raise monies upon issues of Three per Cent. Stock, for example, even though they were obliged to do so at a certain degree of loss. As far as the recommendation of the Committee was concerned, and looking to the effect of voluntary bargains entered into by private capital, no doubt, however, much might speedily and safely be effected towards the reduction of the Unfunded Debt. Mr. HUME.—The Right Hon. Gentleman has not yet answered the observations I offered in respect of the life annuities. Mr. BERRIES thought his Right Honourable Friend had already, by his statement, supplied the answer called for. From that statement it should appear that throughout the papers lately laid upon the table, the life annuities was considered as a part of the charge of the Sinking Fund ; and all that portion of the surplus of revenue above the ex penditure, hitherto been applied to the making up of the Sinking Fund, on its late system, was to be now appropriated to these life annuities. Whether it might not simplify the statement of the matter hereafter, to consider these life annuities as part of the general debt to be provided for, and not calcu late any surplus of revenue until after the charge of them had been deducted from the gross income, might be another question.—(Hear, hear.) —And he was disposed to acquiesce in the propriety of adopting this simplified mode of stating the account. —(Hear, hear.)—Now the surplus calculated for the present year, of 3,000,8001., did undoubtedly include the charge for life annuities, which, being deducted from it, left an actual surplus of about 2,800,000/. This was the surplus of revenue or income, independent of the life annuities' charge.— (Cheers.)—There was no error in this statement; and he was adopting a mode of statement which was the least qualified to mislead, inasmuch as it had been the practice of Parliament for many years to adopt it. Sir H. PARNELL was anxious to bear testimony to the perfect fairness and plainness of the Chancel lor of the Exchequer's statement of this evening— (Hear, hear)—and indeed be thought that the esti mate on which that Right Hon. Gentleman had prepared his Budget was not only quite moderate, but even much below what he might, with fairness, have taken it at.—(Hear, hear.) —He should now address himself to some parts of the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement. If he understood him rightly it was his intention to apply three millions annually to an actual Sinking Fund. Now, it was a great question in the Committee whether a fixed sum of three millions a year should he applied to this purpose, or whatever might be the actual sur plus of revenue beyond expenditure for each year. It was fit the public should understand that the Committee recommended the specific amount in question. It was agreed in the Committee that 3,000,000/. should be the sum at which the Chan cellor of the Exchequer ought to propose his fund to the House; and that the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt should purchase stock throughout the year at this rate. It was further agreed, that if a deficiency should arise in the income of any year to such an extent as not to bear the ap propriation of this sum, the difference should be de ducted from the surplus of preceding years, so that at all events there should be no sort of debt, what ever might be the sum appropriated, whether more or less incurred in carrying into execution this new plan for the reduction of the National Debt. As to what the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had said about the policy of the Sinking Fund, it should be recol lected that they who were most opposed to the Sinking Fund were, like the late Mr. Ricardo, the most anxious for the reduction of the debt. His own feeling on the question was this, that the country wa s already in that state, from excessive taxation, that the taxation of three millions a year necessary to raie this Sinking Fund, would do more harm than an y appropriation of it could do good. It behoved the House to consider how very injuriously some of our taxes must tell upon the energies of the country. By a paper which he had called for in the Finance Committee, it appeared that not less than six mil lions were raised upon articles that formed the very basis of our, industry and manufactures and other wise; commodities, in short, that entered into our manufactures, into building, and so forth. Such taxes must, of necessity, add to the cost of produc tion; and seeing how much our prosperity now de pended upon our ability to compete with foreign industry and capital, it was clear that we were losing by these taxes our foreign markets.—(Hear.) When we saw that foreigners were manufacturing their own machinery, and bringing into market in creased capital and industry, was it not of the highest moment that we should get rid of all those burdens, which Increased so mischievously the cost of production ? some of these taxes were of the most direct kind; and those which might be classed under the head of Excise, and were levied on ar ticles of such extensive consumption as paper, glass, and so on, were of all others the most expensive. This was that class of taxes which gave rise to smuggling; and which smuggling the vain attempt to put down occasioned the country the yearly ex pense of 700,000/. When he and others proposed to repeal the imposts which gave rise to all this smuggling, they wet e answered, that a revenue was raised from them of from one to two millions; and how was this sum to be sacrificed. But looking to the increased consumption which the extinction of these duties would create—to the relief from this charge of 700,000/., and all the expenses attendant upon the chain of barracks, as he might call them, which we were now obliged to maintain all round the toast—would it not be well to give up this one or two Millions of revenue ? (Hear, hear.) Other taxes, like that upon timber, were so absurdly high, that, instead of gaining, the revenue was known to lose by them. He himself had come to this con clusion, that where the question was, whether we should reduce debt or lower taxation, he was for lowering taxation. The first duty of the Govern ment in the first year of the peace ought to have been to have revised the whole system of taxation. If the Government would only give the country a fair chance, by remitting taxes, such was her power of production, and such her capital, that there could be no fear, with such an advantage, of her being able to discharge all the obligations of her debt. As to the arguments—or rather, the assertions, for they are not arguments - ' —of those Hon. Gentlemen who talked about a Sinking Fund Whig essential to public credit, what had it in reality to do w i t h public credit at all ? So long as we could p a y the dividends, public credit was perfectlys a fe. If he could once see our taxes put upon a better, footing, and properly revis e d, h e wou l d g i ve hi s support to a much larger plan for the . production ofthheNational Debt than that now proposed by t h e Right Hon. Gentleinan. Af ter taxes had been lightened 'fora year or two, he would 'Supped the i m position of others to be appropriated to the reduc tion of debt, provided only that they did not press u pon our productive industry, to the'amount of five or even six milliOns. If the old system for the re duction of debt were to be persevered in, what would be the consequence in the event. of any future war? We should go on first to p erma nent PropertY T ax, then to new l oans, and, finally, to such a mass of additional taxation to defray the charge of ottr in creasing debt, that we should be brought to a na tional bankruptcy. It was now the time, then, for, the - adoptiOn of a beneficial change of system.. There could be no doubt 'that the country was now far. richer than she was at any time during the war. To show the Committee how much would have been saved'had we not resorted to the system t.f loans, he begged to state that, by a document produced to the Finance Committee, it appeared that the reve nues of the Exchequer, during all the years of the last war, would have sufficed to meet the expenses of the country, with the exception of an amount of 172 millions. This would have been the result had no loan been raised,since 1792 ; whereas the loss occasioned to the country by all the loans raised since that time, amounted to upwards of 600 millions; and the enormous difference between the two sums might, by a better system, have been saved. The lion. Baronet concluded by expressing his sanguine hopes of great benefit to be derived to the nation from the oontinued labours of the Committee, which he hoped would sit next year, and have the benefit of the Right Hon. Gentleman's continued services. Mr. P. THOMSON wished to know of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it were to be understood that it was the intention of the Government in future years- to apply only the actual excess of revenue over expenditure to-the re duction of the debt ? Then ,he wished to know of the Right Hon. Gentleman, if it were intended to adopt this plan during this year ? Again, supposing this to be the intention of Government with respect to this year, he wished to ask, in what way it was intended that the surplus should be invested ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, with respect to the first question of the Honourable Member, would' reply, that it was intended in future years to apply only the excess of income abode expenditure to the reduction' of the debt. At the same time, however, it would be the duty of those who presided over the financial state of the country, to keep up that surplus to the amount of three millions. Then, the Hon. M em b er h a d as k e d hi m , if it were intended to adopt this plan in the present year ? To this he would reply, that it was intended that the operation of the plan should commence from the time at which the Committee came to their de cision. That it should commence at the end of the last half year; and it would be his d u ty th at even ing to move for leave to bring in a Bill to limit the sum applicable to the reduction of the debt to half of three millions in the next half year. The next question of the Hon. Member was as to the nature of the investment. In answer to this question, he had to state, that in the Bill which he intended to introduce, here would be the power of redeeming either the funded or the unfunded debt. Mr. P. THOMSON should not have risen again but for the answer which the Right Hon. Gentleman had given to his second question. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that it was intend ed to comply with the recomMendation of the Finance Committee, and to apply only the excess of income over expenditure this year. But the Right Hon. Gentleman added, that it was intended to ap ply, in the next half year, half of 3,000,0001. to the extinction of debt. Now, that ought not to be done unless it could be shown that the real surplus for that half year amounted to the sum of 1,500,0001. But the statement which the Right Hon. Gentle man had made clearly proved that no such surplus did exist, and if, therefore, extinction of debt to that amount took place, it must be by again recur ring to the practice of borrowing. He had merely risen for the purpose of noticing this, but as the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Master of the Mint) had expressed a strong opinion of the impropriety of applying any surplus to the reduction of the debt due from the Government to the Bank, he felt him self called upon to make a few observations on that part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech. So far from the present being a bad time to reduce that debt, he thought it would be difficult to select a better time. But the Right Hon. Gentleman: Herries) argued that it would be inconvenient to reduce the amount of his debt, and said that if we repaid the Bank 1,500,000/. we should take 'so much from the circulation. Under ordinary circumstances, he would admit this agunsent to be correct; but the present were not ordi nary circumstances. In the relations in which the Government and the Bank now stood, the payment of 1,000,000/. to the Bank—who had still one mil lion pounds to advance on the dead weight—would be merely a book transaction. It would be the pay ment of a million which would never come into cir culation. If therefore a millon of supposed surplus were thus disposed of, there would remain five brill dred thousand to be disposed of. They had been lately told by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, that they had a circulation of 65,000,000/. Was it. possible that withdrawing 500,000/. from such a circulation could be attended with any in convenience ? Besides, this withdrawal would only affect the London circulation, 'and they knew from a late account that there were deposits to the amount of six millions in the Bank, lying idle, because the owners of the money could not find occupation fur it. If therefore 500,000/. were abstracted from the circulation, it would soon be replaced. He would contend that the accident of our having to receive one million from the Bank—coupled with the amount of the deposits in the Bank—wasa complete argument, if argument he could call it, of the-Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries). He was inforMed, that the debt due from Government to the Bank was allowed to remain as it was. The debt stood thus : Advance for the dead weight £11,089,419 Exchequer Bills 6,132,000 Ditto, issued. . .... 3,328,62S £20,b50,047 Deficiency bills, sth July, 1828 8,343,864 . . • £28,893,911 He would not go into the question of the Sinking Fund, as he had merely risento notice the answers of the Right Hon: Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and to call the attention of the House to the state o f t he. Ban k debt. He must, observe, that he perfectly concurred iu the arguments of the lion. Baronet, both i n regar d to however,thenutttre of a sinking fund and of taxation. Mr. MABERLY explained. After a few words from Mr. HERRIES, the reso lution was" agreed to. The next resolution, that the snip .of 6,190,000/. be paid out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain and Ireland, towards raising the supply, was also agreed to, as was also a resolution to the following effect :—" That the sum of 16,046,8001. be raised by Exchequer Bills, for the service of 1 828 ." The House th en resume d , an d t h e re port was or dered to be brou g h t up tomorrow (this day.) - - NATIONAL DEBT ACT. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the House went into a Committee on this Act, when the Right Hon. Gentleman pro posed the following Resolution .That it is the opinion of this Committee, that in lieu of the sum now directed to be raised by the Act of the 4th of Geo. IV., there be issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and - Ireland, towards the reduction of the National Debt, at the receipt of the Exchequer, to the Commis sioners for 'the Reduction of the National Debt, such annual sums as, together with the annual amount of interest of all stock that on the .sth of July, 1828, was stinding'in the name of the Commissioners of the National Debt, 'amounting to the sum of three millions. ....... _ Mr. HUME moved an anieridment—" Provided ' that there be a clea r sur p lus reven ue to that amount." HERRIES, and Mr. HumE was abbut to divide the Hou se , b ut hi s amen d ment was finally negatived without a division, and the ori ginal resolution agreed to. The next Resolution wa s , th at t h e C omm i ss i on ers TheE xc m it ° L i° u the n E was tt and Mr. opposed by th e C HANCELLOR o f for the reduction of the National Debt be empowered to apply the money vested in them to the purchase of Exchequer Bills if they so think fit; and that such Bills be cancelled.--Agreed to. Report was . The House th en resu m e d,' and the R ordered to be re c ei ve d 'to-morrow (this day). EAST Rr.TFORD- Mr. N. CALVERT moved the Ordera the Day for receiving the Report on the East R etftord Dis franchisement Bill. The Report was received, and ordered to be taken into further consideration on Tuesday se'imight. The Hon. MEMBER stated, that it was his inten tion, in the event of the House sitting so long (which he did not anticipate), to postpone the further con sideration to a still farther day. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the East Retford Freemen fill was then read. Mr. N. CALVERT said, he would hereafter move, that the issuing of the writ for East Retford should be postponed to a certain period in the next Session. Mr. PEEL pledged himself to -.o.ipport the mea- sure of the Hon. Gentleman, when he should think proper to proceed with it. , The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed that day three months. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the House wet x into a Committee on the subject of the 'Welland Canal. It was resolved " that a =sum not exceeding .50,0001. be granted (in advance) to, the King, for the purpose of enabling the Presidentand Directors of the Welland Canal Navigation to finish the work of connecting the waters of the Lakes Ontario and Erie. The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow (this day) • Mr. ESTCOURT brought up the report of the Committee of the Police of the Metropolis.--Ordered to be printed. On the Motion of the CHAIATCELLOR of •;the EXCHEQUER, the other ordertkof the day were then disposed Ofyilnd the House ,adjoined at Half-past Twelve o'clock. LIST OF THE ON TILE BILL TO PILE' FUNDS TO EL' MAJORITY ; Ali ENT CORPORATIONS PI :CTIONEP.RING PURPOSI ID MINORITY ?ROM A l I TLYINO THEIR 1E3`24 .JULY 10. Batley, C. H. Benett, John Borradaile, R. Clive, E. B. Cholmeley, Sir M. J. Capel, John Dawson, A. Gilbert, D. Gurney, H. Graham, Sir J. Raise, Hume, Joseph Jephson, C. 0. MAJORITY. Lambert, J. S. I amb, Hon G. Robinson George Sandon, Viscount Smith, W. Seytnour, Horace Talmash, Hon. Thomson, C. P. Wortley, Hon. J. S. Wood, John Villiers, T. H. I...ennard, T. B. :.Ifaberly, J. Martin, J. Monck, J. B. Mackinnon, C. Palmer, C. F. Pendarves, E. W. Protheroe„ Ed. Phillimore ' Dr. Rice, T. S.. Robinson, Sir G. MINORITY. Fyler, T. B. Lowther, Viscount . Lushington Cola Sibthorpe, C. D. :TELLER. qui,. R. 0. Atkins, Alderman Attwood, M. Bankes, G. Cast, Hon. ITrant, W. It Wilson, James TELLS R. Ross, C, OF Fl Atkins, Alderman Attvrood, M. Banker, George SECOND MINORITY IVE ON TRH SAME QUESTION. Cust, Hon: • Titties. Lowther, Viscount Wilson, James Sibthorpe, C; D. LONDON MARKETS. PRICES OF HOPS.-July .;{.QI - 1t 83. to 41. 15. SUESCX Ditto - ' 3/. 10s. 3/. 113 s. to 41. 40 . . Ess®x Ditto lbs. 41. 4s. to 41. 10s. Faruham Ditto, Fl- 0/. 04. 0/. 10s. to 17, 79. 01. Os. 64 'es. to 61. 10s. 3/. 1b k. -31. 15s. to 41. 41. 31, 34. 31. 85. to 31. 12.. 31. 104. 31. 15s. to 41. Os. Old Duty laid at X 170,000. .Second 3 Kent 8ag5.4.., Sussex Ditto Essex Ditto WHITECHAPEL HAY . 51 A1IKIX.—J1tly 10, . Hay its. Od. to 965. Od. ('lover, .00s. Od. to 1158. Od. 325. Od. to 38s. OcL > PRICE OF OM Rape Oil, brown --........... 311. 6s. ReOnes 6 r - iseed Oil 10 10 5 10 Linseed Oil Cake at the Mill, per thonsand !tape Cake, per ton .1.V•WWWW.0.0,04,1, PRICE OF POTATOES.- , July 11. New Ware 3/. N. to 3/. 10s. per ton. Middlings LEATHER. Per lb. Tanned. Horse Hides..,, Spanish Ditto d. to d. 16 p* 22' 26 Per doirin - . --7 -77 ' Cap f Skim. 36 to 401 b, 19 24 Ditto to Mb. 24 28 Ditto 70 to 801 b. 21 24 Small Seals, Oreenland 18 19 .FIIIC . FS OF Per lb. 7 si. tad. ^ 8utt5,—......50 to L61b...., 20 21 . Ditto—,-60 to 661 b.— 22 23 Dressing 141 17 Fine Coach Hides., 17 20 Crop Hides, 35 to 401 b. 14 171 to 501b.:17k .19/ Ditto .. w.n ....r•WWWWIMANVO 181 211 rer :3toße. 5.2. to s. d. Best Heiters& St eers 3 2 3 0 Ord i nary 2 0 2 4 , RAW HIDES P . e Stone. s. d. to s. d. 2. 6 210 Market Calf B.Beach SIIEEY SKINS. O. Oct. to Os. Ott. I Shearlings........ IN. Ott. to Os. Id. Polled 04. Od. to Os. Od. PRICE OF TALLOW, SI Town 'fallow . 40s. Od. Yellow 38s. Od. , Od. Soap Ditto 365. 6d, Melted Stuff. . 3`34. Ditto Rough. Od. , AP, Sze. per 1121b.—July IL Yellow 745. Od• Mottled 904. Oct White Graves_ 20q. Od. Good Od. PRICE OF CANDLES. The price of Store Candles, in the ret llshops, is as follows: Candles, per doz. '7s. Pd. to Os. (Id. I Moulds, per dozen Ss. 6d. PRICE OF RAW FAT, per stone ot 81b.—July ii. PricQ of Tallow (as stated by the Tallow 2d. Walla :fad Newt:larch.. 31s. Ott Ditto ittassell's Ditto Walket 3L 6 Stobarto Eden 30 0 Walls End Hett014...... 36 6 Walls End 34 6 Ditto Stewart's 36 0 RusselPsHetton'sW.E. 36 Cowpeu .29 0 33 0 Hartley - - 3 O 3O 0 Silkstone 29 6 Stone Coal Cox -45 0 Ward's 34 0 Walls End glgui 32 g Peacock 29 0 Walls End small 21 0 Tanfleld Trader 31 6 Sunderland Walls End Pelaw 18 3 ipS sold, ag ....Unsold. 19 COAL MA It. AdMr's • "... to.. 32,1.6 d: Beaumont , 30 6 Dent's Primrose 30 3 Heaton 34 9 Hebburn /Hat :33 0 Holywell.- 31 6 Killingwortli 33 6 Ortes Redhugh 29 0 Pelaw 31 0 Wvlam 31 6 Walt: End Bell and Co. 33 9 Ditto Bell Robson & Co. 34 0 ' Ditto Bewickeand Co—., 35 6 Ditto Carr and......... 30 6 Ditto Clarke and Co. 31 9 Ditto Cramlington.....;.., 30 6 Ditto Ililda 32 0 Ditto notsput «.... 32 0 Ditto Northumberland 33 0 Ditto Perkins and Co. 33 9 Ships at inarket,62l4-Shi COUNTRY CORN MARKEI'S DURING THE WEEK. Wheat. Per Quarter. Ashburn -..-- Basingstoke Bath 52 53 48 67 46 62 48 56 52 :, , f; 52 56 56 LS 44 56 49 • • 61 40 60 58 62 48 54 48 63 17 32 Y 8 33 24 29 21 24 21 28 20 22 16 24 25 28 .23 • 22 29 16 27 21 25 .21 22 20 28 18 31 . , 25 18 311 . 22 25 46 52 35 39 36 44 38 - 40 48 40 48 46 49 47 51 44 49 42 46 Bridgewater —..-- Bristol 32 35 Chesterfield —.,—. Derby Devizes --- Dancaster Dorchester. 26 30 25 • 28 ' 25 29 24 30 26 ' 32 35 30 33 29 31 28 28 30 24 a 26 30 26 28 S. d. s. d. 00 D 0 Glouce,ter7-7 Hungerford Newbury --,--...... liornsey Shaftesbury Shepton Mallet 58 60 38 63 - 41 36 40 44 70 55 58 52 58 52 58 • 54 60 50 56 s. B.d. B 0 86 20 30 22 27 20 24 26 28 a. d. s. d. 50 60 35 40 41 44 40 44 40 4. 9. d. 5.d 00 0 0 Yeovil Per Bushel. Shrewsbury EDINBIF We had a very! ket. On Wheat Oats may he quot 'heat. First s9s Ott Second ats 8d Third COR small suppl Ind Barley A is. lowe Barley. 38s Od 36s Od 29s Od tN MARK oly of Whet' r there is 1 er, Pease al Oats. 28s 6d 245 Od 163 Od El'.—J ul y 9. at at this day's ;par but little variation. nd Beans Is. higher. Pease. Beaus. 38.1 Od 39s Od 32s Od Sts Od 28s Od , gds Od PRICES OF PROVISIONS, Sc. Beef, per 1b.... U. 4d. to Os.7d. Fresh Butter,lb.s. 1041 to Os. Mutton 0 4 0 7 Salt 9 0 0 Veal 0 4 0 6 Ditto, per cu t. 75 6 0 0 Porlc w — 0 5 0 6 Eggs, per doz. • 0 8 0 U Lamb, per qr. I 6 3 0 OatStraw(kpl.) 8 u 9 0 Tallow, cwt.... 33 0 :36 0 Wheat Ditto... 6 0 '7 0 Ouartern Loaf 0 S 0 9 Barley Ditto 0 0 0 0 Potatoes, 141 b. 0 0 1 4 May, per 0, 9 ,0 10 EDINBURGH MEA We had a small supply of which sold heavily at last -wk Per Sack of 2801 b. Imp. First Oatmeal Second ditto 1 15 0 Barleymeal .11'2 0 Peasemeal 1 K 0 Pot Barley,—No. 1, per cwt. 13 .L MARKET. —July 8. Oatmeal at this day's market, cek's priceN. , • Per Stone of Mb. Imp. First Oatmeal £0 2 0 Second ditto I 11) Barleymeal p 2 10 Peasem eat 0 I 0 35.-251, 18r.—Peat 1 245._ MARKET.—JuIy 9. shade lower anti a moderate Oats, per I• 6411). s. d. 3 4 d. Irish l6olold 0 British l6 0 20 ° Beans, ler 2601 b, .... 0 English Scottish Pease, Scottish 4 l7 6 is 6 Oatineal,perl4olb l4 0 16 0 Flour, per2Bolb..; 4h 0 46 0 GLASGOW CORN The prices of Grain are a business doing. Wheat, per 2401 b. s. d. s. d. British, 01(1 ......... 0t032 0 - new ...... 0 28 0 Canada, free ........ 29 0 31 0 Irish .................. 2-1 0 27 0 Barley, per 320 in. English ............... 29 0 29 6 S co ttish ............... 27 0 28 0 Irish .................. 21 0 CI at ß ß lß as T in li pto S. O n the 10th inst.. ke; in Hampshire, the l a dy of J. R. Birni e , E sq ., o f l i - daughter. ' On the 2d inst., at the Rectory, Hatford, Berka, - the lady of the Rev. S. - Paynter, of a daughter, still born. On the 9th inst., at Blackmore Park; Worcester4reo Mrs. E. W. Shewell, of a son. ' E On the 7th i ns t., th e lady of Stephen on, Esq., 0 1 Ketton Hall, in the. county of Rutland, of ajson. MARRIED. On the 10th ios4, at .Carnberwell. c hureb;.lw I+'''W. Gay,. John Robert Payne, Esq., 0f,314 Ordnec e Tower, t n EliTalVaryi . third daughter . ef ihe le e Offic e, James Gay, Esq., a Champion-hill. . ;i d On the sth inst., at the lir_ish __lrtbassa,cor's• • at Paris, George Cornwall Legh; Esq., eldest sin of C ieo Wf John Legh, Esq., of High Legh, in thi County Palatine t l a Cheshire, to Louisa Charlotte, second daughter of Edirof Taylor, Esq., of Bifrons, Kent. , DIED. , h On the Bth inst. in the 60th year of his age,. 1iir.,.,104 a Goddard, of Drury-lane, deeply regretted by his f&unilyo friends. • ' On Tuesday last, aged 49, Mrs. Mary Benton, wife Mr. James Benton, of the White Horse, Ilford, much la' mented by her relatives, and regretted by her numerous friends. Pius nit) and rUKISiIIiD by M. YOUNu, at the SUN OF,FiCii : P Nu, lle, *brand, Lune,l4n, Barley. • Oats. Beans. t TTE ~r 5.. , ' Will lea 0 f August, F AITH, C 4 For Fre HELMER, '............. POSi.tiVel] TILE THI qty Canal, V* to Bresgr JOH] A Cllatteri to 'VAN DIE THE JAN don D oc k. d►tion for 'Will carry The i 3 OH JOH P,DINRUI GERS, THE Bur YORRES Greenwiel Tuesday, 1 Friday, 15 Permitting The Far Cabin, IA Chief Cabi Paeeeng at Newhav ineonvaaie Paeeeng on the eve at the Ha Goods at dilly; DOll Lombard-e Births n further inf Wood, 56, Mr. W. George tx. A ci „,,, ton, Will 1.1 nr Gentle') he Will me advantages references menials fra attainment Terms ; (or if by 1( Strand. 1 "R0 I ". AD PLACE, Guar 4amuel Si The Hon Dundas Henry Go William tar, Es( John Deac The Pr to the Poi Life. Assure! way most Officeni Pereone of as are gnir Berate Rai Prospec obtained a AT . raising a A the fullowi Subs —: Houses, b Messrs. Co., Mess Co., Lon Latouche, Inetire. L Biessrs. I and Co., Faltonet, The Su t. whom No. 50, Chao ; fi N. M. r Regerr, E