The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-09 00:00:00

Liam that of Mr. G. Knight—(Hear, hear)—who, in support of his arguments in favour of a conciliatory settle ment of this question, adduces proofs, too, which cannot be doubted, being those put, forward by, one who has been himself an eye-witness to all he 'states, and who comes forward with his valuable testimony in support of the rights of our Catholic fellow subjects. What does Mr. linight say ? That in Prussia the Catholic. Portion of the population of that Monarchy amounts to 4,000;000-41e Pro testants, to 6,ooo,ooo—and the remainder of a population of,.eleven millions, (namely, one million) is:made up of Calvinistic Presbyterians. Yet there, in Prbssii;• perfect peace and tranquillity prevail. Now, it is impossible to conceive a state of society more illustrative than this of the blessings resulting f ro m religious toleration. The' King on the throne professes a religion in which, comparatively, very few of his subjects concur with him, aad yet, religious toleration has there produced its uniform and . never•failing and peace. —(H ear , h ear . )-1 consequences —tranquillity. was go i ng , previous to this discussion, to reply to the argu ments, or rather the observations, of the Right Hon. Gent. opposite in his answer to Mr. Canning. The Right Hon. Gentleman on that occasion said, " it is very well to quote France or Germany, where the Catholics form the majo rity of the community —no danger can there be apprehended to the majority by concessions to the Protestants, who form the minority—no apprehension can he apprehended to the Established Church of the Catholics from admitting the minority to the exercise of all their political rights."— The Right Honourable Gentleman continued thus " Now," cal(' he(Mr. Peel), "my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Can ning) must shew me the applicability of these eases to Ireland, where the Catholics are the majority, and the Protestants, that is those of the Established Church, the minority." The Right Honourable Gentleman, much to his honour, declared upon that occasion that be file ,T,ended upon argument for the maintenance of his opi nions, and scorned to avail himself of what had a few years previously been resorted to in resistanc;: of the Catholic Claims —the cry of " No Popery."—(Loud cheers.)—His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) said to hini (Mr. Peel), " You are not afraid of Popery?"--" No," said the Bight Hon. Gentleman, " but the examples, for the rea ssos I have stated, being inapplicable to Ireland, I cannot allow them to have any weight in influencing my view of the qu°.stion•" Now, although out of doors a man would he laughed and sneered at who should confess he was afraid of Popery, yet, to this House, it if; sometimes allowed to him to avow his r ;vprehensions--but he was always called upon to prove his gr.,unds for them. It is, therefore, a great point gained, to find that the Right lion. Gentleman is not afraid of Popery—k laugh)—consequently, not having the fear of the Pope, or .^7f the Pretender, before his eyes—he not being afraid of thugs things which were considered (wrongfully I maintain) to have called for measures to ward off the dangers likely to arise to our establishments from the Pope or his religion—if, I say, the Right Honourable Gentleman . gives up this, lie gives up all apology for continuing those measures of defence.--(hear.)--If any dangers menace the establish ment from concessions, let the Right lion. Gentleman meet them, and provide a security against them, and lam cure the Home will concur in them.—(Hear, hear.)—llut let us not continue those no-securities, which ought to be abandoned, being no longer necessary. Let us return.- 31r. Pitt, at the very period when he proposed to carry the measure f , tr a legislative union of England and Ireland, was an advocate for Catholic Emancipation, and calcula- fed upon it as a result of the union, nay, promised that it thould flow from it. Now, if any danger could be appre• 'headed from concessions,, surely it was to be dreaded a' that period when Ireland possessed an independent legislo ture; and the large majority of the people being, as a regent, Catholic, he must, if such a thing 'night to be feared at any time, then have apprehended somethieg, but he .entertained no such dread ; -and now that the measure of the Union has been carried—now that the Irish Legis lature is no more=-does not the argument of the night Honourable Gentleman, like the elephants of Pyrrhus, which fell hack upon and destroyed his own army, demolish his own ease, and does he net admit that if danger ever existed, (awl the only ground gem' justifi cation of this harsh and exclusive measure was.the ex istence of danger) it must here then existed ? . Yet even he must admit, Abet since the Union, that argil. raetit has been completely removed ; for all have since that period been of the national church. It is Absurd to, talk of the Church of Ireland, when it is the Church of the United Kingdom. If it be so—if there be, indeed a Church of Ireland, then there has been no union, and the Act that has passed was puerile and childish—aggravated by every evil that could be inflicted upon a country. The only argument, therefore, that Las been heard in support of the present system has been founded on the nem-,se:ty for its ; but even the Duke of Wellington him self must see that the whole state of the question is chang ed, and I an; convinced he will consider is in a totally dif ferent point of view from that takeit by the Right Hon. teentleman (Mr. Peel.) I hope that the single, manly vied of the Duke of Wellington will perceive the absurdity esf continuing restridlans—all necessity for them, real .o-r imaginary, having passed away. (Cheers.) Ido not wish to press that Noble Duke-4 do not wish to prose the King's Ministers without cause ; they have already (lops much—(lourt and eOntioned cheering)—they have done that which, in the eyes: of all those who are usually elenominated bigotted Churchmen, was the tvotst that could have been done, and therefore, for all that is to. follow, they no:et have been prepared. (Loud cheers.) .1 consequently trust that the Duke of Wellington will take that enlarged view of the sutrject, of which ,his capacious mind is capable— that he who never found any real danger in the pursuit of victory will not suffer the phantoms of imaginary danger to deter hires from this great and noble consummation of a nation's happiness. (Cheers.) if the Duke of Welling ton shall add this glory to his already transeendant renown, the glory of being the pacificator of Ireland, be will become the equally glorious consolidator of England's eQWfr.— (Cheers).--.4 glory greater than any of those Oiled by Voe in the field of battle—(Cheers) —and he will as the same sisle be making some recompense to the brave Catholics who fell in their co-operation with him in asserting the onlitary prowess of England, and who, in so dying, bound round their own brows a portion of those laurels which they had so often wreathed around his sword. In doing this, he will have done more for himself, morefor his Sovereign, and more tor his country, than it ever before fell to the Ist of man to achieve—even all his own great glories will he absorbed in the grateful recolleetion of the benefits he will thus have conferred upon his Sovereign and on this country.—(Load and long continued cheering.) It is asserted, that the Catholics are inadmissible to those eights which they now claim. When those who make this aseertien are asked for the proof they have to over, they ,ny, like the ttown in the play, that they have an awkwer, hot they forget.---(o. laugh.)—" l'ut to us," say they "any question you like, you will find us always prepared"-ehut when premed, nreanswer een they call to mind. It is m erited that the Catholics owe allegiance to the p o pe, They also, it will be admitted, owe equal al egianee to a Catholic as to a Protestaet Sovereign. Now, tiaia being the case, what f ,contend for is, that this divided allegiance is however infinitely more dangeroue to a Catholic than m a Protestant Sovereign,. --(Hear. )--If it be dangeroue at all, it must he dangerous n a great d e gree in a Catholic country—but in our own, a Protestant Governtwor, where no such thing as divided allegiance exists (for the idea rid'it is repudiated by the Catholics, and I agree with tha n ) , t h ere is no countr y in the world where ao little danger cool/lite apprehended from the admission of Catholic; as in this mixed such a 7ernrnent of England—(a Protestan t State) en if thieg es d' hith is ;0 be kept sided allegiance existed. The Catholics ha-e been charged mitt holding the doctrine that on ha e s p pr w ol l hereti:'s ; now, as the whole of then . c ot Inc. • '6 X hope we shall hear that the ratholic9 do keep good fa' , no more ()Obis contindinm—divided g e ' n " s ; ( n t r i ) o In opposition te the Catholic Claims, references t to eo Fa the uninformed peetisans of days now pas f turn—those days wien had and unfeeling men go,. y siert of power—but Would it not he the acme Of vulgar , Teatime) , to visit the crime:'4' such men upon the present " bloody generation ?—(Cheers.) For inntance , w e talk of Q ueen Mar y , " and "the monster Phi* IL ;" but w ould i t not be a monstrous injustice, that because atrocities were perpetrated in their day, that the Catholics of the present eleolld be doomed to stiffer? Equally unjust Would it he ,es to accuse the Roman, of the acts of the monster Nero. .Th e acts of Philip and Alary, and of Bishop Banner, must not, therefore, be attributed to the Catholics of their own day, and surely not revenged upon those of the Feseett tires. There is, 7ispreover, another circumstance respect ing the Catholics of ste4end of that day, whiCh goes a great the stetements made against them ; may towards fals if y in g but here let me exemplify the .I:se made by the opponents of the Catholics in thee our .own .tilnea, of references to f bloody Queen Maly," and " the aggots pf ,Smithfield." I know a certain parish, in which the parson bogy went round to his parlabioners, asking their signatures os a pcq,. lion against the Catholic claims. " Noi" said his pg.. "the won't sigoalor we do not know any thing tad of the Catholics." "Wilet;" replied the parson, e do ? Have you no • you know nothing of bloody Queen Z. d?" Overcome knowledge of the burnings in Smith Eel by this argument, the people put their hands to the peti tion, not against the Catholics, but 'to prevent the recur rence of such times as those of bloody Queen Mary.,- (Hear, hear.) Now, instead of thus seeking to obtain signatures to petitions for the maintenance of those ttstrictivo laws of which the Catholics coxnplain, I contend that it ought to be the desire, the most anxious wish, of the clergy of the Established Church, to get rid of them.—(Cheers.) I was about to state that something very remarkable occurred about the time of Philip and Mary, which would go to acquit the Irish Catholics of any participation in the guilt of the enor mities perpetrated.. in the reign •of Mary. At the very time when those ..fires were lighted in Smithfield, Sir James Ware wrote from Ireland . that which fulls' corrobo rated the statement of Sir John DavieS, that there was no people on earth who more loved indifferent justice than did the Irish. Sir James Ware states, that " when the Protestants,fled away from England, to avoid thebigotry and the persecutions of Bishop Bonner and the fires of Smith field, they took refuge in Ireland, where they were received with all that kindness, all that hospitality, for which the Irish have at all times been rernatkable." Such a religion as that professed by those Irish cannot be a bad one. When the Catholic religion was re -established in England—when the party which had gotten the upper hand were exercising every means of retaliation—what did those whom we have been in the habit of calling the " savage Irish" do? In stead of inflicting similar sufferings upon those who had fled to them for refuge, they, on the contrary, stood con spicuous as their , protectors, permitting them to remain in the undisturbed exercise of their religion. Therefore, as even upon that score the people of Ireland must be held absolved of all the cruelties attributed to them, the House ought, on the other hand, to feel admiration for those poor people of Ireland, against whom no reproach of that de- seription can be made. Mr. Gaily Knight, in his pamph let, seeks to chew that in all countries, and in all religions, religious persecutions have existed. Nothing could be more intolerant than the Calvinists have been, yet cer tainly nothing could be more unjust than to charge upon the Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland of the pre sent day the assassination of Archbishop Sharp, and the other atrocities committed by those lunatics, the Cove nanters—equally unjust as to revenge upon the Catholics the acts of bad men of former days, for which vulgar pre judice would yet hold them accountable.—(Cheers.) —The truth is, that it is not the part of Catholics, or of any other sect or set of religionists, to perform such acts. It is not the religion of a man which influences him to perpe trate such enormities. These things have always been done by bad men, whom religion could not restrain. It was Banner's own bigotted, malignant, and interested passion, which induced him to persecute. lied Bonner lived in these days, lie would have been—what I will not name— so hostile to the spirit of-the time, that it does little credit to those to whom it belongs. (The Honourable Ba ronet here drew a picture of a person, who throughout a long life had held an exalted situation in the State, in which his doubts and hesitation upon all topics con nected with the duties of that situation, had become characteristic of him.) A great legal individual, possessed of great professional acumen, perfectly comne tent to - decide upon points connected with his office—on which, however mischievous as was delay, much more so even than the greatest despatch could have been—he uni formly exercised the utmost degree of caution and hesita tion—yet that upon this iluotion—upon the question of Rel:gioui Liberty—that great, that universal question, which had engaged the minds of all the great men, all the great Statesmen of the preceding century, who had in for mer years advocated in that House, that cause, with their gigantic talents—for (continued the Hon. Bart.), there were giants in those days—they who had prepared the sail —they who had sown the 'seeds of which lie trusted they (the House) were to reap the harvest. In opposition to the conduct and the opinions of all these, the learned per son never hesitated, or doubted for a moment, the course which, on that subject, he should adopt. Among those great 'nen (continue(' the Hon. Bart.) were to be found the the names of Burke, Pitt, Fox, Sheridan, Grattan, Wind ham, Canning—and last of all that great man who, if his physical pony ors had permitted him, would, even now, per sottally support it—l mean • Lord Grenville ;—who has, through all hie life, been the advocate of this cause, and who, if Providence hail allowed him, would still be found foremost in the ranks of its most strenuous supporters. The opinions which lie had first formed upon this tines tion he still retaine-a=opinions inconsistent with any inte rested views—(lfear, 'hear, hear)—on the contrary, they are opinions in opposition to his own interest--opinions • not only neeprnmended by all his wisdom, but also by the purity, and honesty, and integrity, which in this, and in this only, influenced h: g i to agree with come of his distin guished contemporaries—influenced also, I ought to say, by ' a sense of the importance of the subject, and also, by its necessity to ceaure the vital happiness and secueity of the country. (The Hon. Baronet here again reverted to the individual whose portrait he had attempted to draw, and dwelt once more at 'considerable length upon the hesita tion of that individual, upon matters where decision was r«.l.zeraary aud practicable, and his promptness in determin ing upon the Catholic Claims.) It would be idle (conti nued the Hon. Batonet) to contend that at this day there is any value affixed to the Pepe' Bulls. They no longer fight. Like Bottom in the play, they " roar you as gentle as the euclting dove."—(A laugh.) "'hey have not ;m ach influence a. 7 ), where, and least of all in •Ireland. It is not many years since the ,Catholics of irelend refused to concur in what ti Pope was willing to coincide. The Pope agreed to certain conditions for the eettiement of this question, whieli the Irish Catholics declared they would not consent to. I will not go through the history of former times, or bring too fully before you the magnanimous example offered us tan this point by Queen Elieabeth, perhaps ORC of the wisest t - ihneereigns that ever sat on the throne of England. I will not lio4 net for your aim what may be thought unattainable. Nevertheless, for an instant, let us glance e.t her eituation and bier conduct when surrounded by dangers which threatened to overwhelm her. - By the greater part of the Catholic world she was considered as an illegitimate child, and, as such, without title to the throne. Site cared little for any title but the only one worth caring for—her Parliamentary title—end that the affection of her subjects secured her—that she considered * ;officient security from the State, the Church, and the Throe. 51w found it her security against Philip H. in oio!I possesfia4 of, and wielding with no weak arm, all the power Of the F4pa-nien Inonarchy—a monarchy then so extensive, that it was the beneS pf Castilian pride that the sun rose and set in the Spanish dominianna and which had just been increased by possessions then considered of more value than they have since been found ; I mean the inexhaustible treasures of the new world—she found it her security against the comhinat;nn of the Catholic Guis world against her.e-elie founi it her pecoriq when the es held the power of r Jaare—wheo the life of henry IV. was taken by an aeseeseinenwhen the streets of Paris flowed with blood on the eve of St, Baralt4entew, and the Dee of Alva tyrannised in the low countrio. in such days f peril, iu a new state , jus t after the Refermation, when at !nisi:one-half of the people were Catholics, Elieeheth heel , too A'Anait magnanimity, as well as wisdom, to listen to the suggcs:tions of persons who wished to fill her with sus pleitone of the Catlinlies. 6 ' No," she replied! te their insi nuations, ts bave not the ,C7astboilo Noblemen and Gentle-- men of England honour, estates, c ,- ;urtesy? Will they, think ye, sacrifice them? Your syspiciops'a74 `e;!rs are vain." , She trusted them, rzaguanimously r:nel wisely trusted them, and they nobly justified the trust she biased ;n them.—(Careers.) —This was when the Duke of parma, the greapist Captain of the day, led the Spanish troops, Bien considered the best in the world, and that he was ex pected to lead them . aga;nset her. It was under all these circumstane,ez drat she etood eloq, relying upon the alle giance of all her subjects, and by this confidence extri edited herself from the slifficnities which etirtonneied her. At that time she hail not, as we are Weaned, more than two thousand troops in Ireland, and it was a . C410:- li linbleman that seas Admiral of the fleets she sent to oPpnae tarns .i.p.yl,lsion of Catholic Europe. Was her confi denee ill planesi? ,Stserounded by dangers, which, at the present time, it wool.el Is,' vain to think possible to arise, was she not faithfully seyYeAl lq Catholics ? Having heard of the dispersal of the Atikerce i.ieet by !tempests, always anxious to relieve the imr(len; pea V,4 a,le sent orders to the Catholic Admiral to (Us t?ent; 4!.1t her Catholic Admiral disobeyed then orders, nnti - beggod tLq, he might be allowed to keep the fleet toaetteor at Ins exrense until the storm was completely past, apprehende d. ,-fait422: danger was to be Thus, with a 4atlidiia'Ada.i - .4 did she o ppose Catholic invaders, and s a ve the'cOWiy from a Catholic invasion. Never had she the slightest reason to doubt elie . eeal and fidelity of the Catholics. The'y fought her battles, and gained her victories, as undistine 'Waterloo and the to 4't t . nnisider the imPetri quished from Protestants as the ratholics who fought side of them 'to other g rea,t F ell s we won durin g i t war. Icy side with til;;lirclfe.lico:n-estlelrjeec.nto the befin:e us. I beg beg and etettvet consider whether it mai' tance of the rpiesia,s At,:v aiotlie jell to say eoniethiug now, at least, with respect to irelead, 1 eat them to consider, whether it may not be well to a tear ,4 cu that country those beneficent principles of religions surest", which have been ibund to produce. peace and hap piness in ail times, in all the Feet of tl ie world. If their s beneficial consequent introduction de not .peedoce 141 tho-e ces which Mr. Pitt thowght,the.y when he proposed the union, which we, if we have any regard fcty name, or respect for his character, ought to nomplete, yet tire; e are, I imagine, few in this House, who will venture to nay that some of the effects he wished would not be broght about. Such a measure may not be a panac ea for all the evils of Ireland. He is a bold man who will say, that any one iceasur wcyld he a panacea for Ireland lent he feriors. is a bolder man, who being able to think at all, will say that this measure is not likely to bring a remedy to • some, and great alleviation to most of the evils which now afflict that country.--(Hear, hear.) I lurie heard it said, "What have the people of. Ireland to do with emancipa tion ?" I wish those persons who have said this to recol lect that it is impossible for people ao alive as a body to any thing that affects a part as. the Trish, not to feel the degraded state to which 'they are reduced. We have so governed them that they have become united against us in a kind of sympathetic opposition. Se that it is imposal_ . ble to touch any thing in Ireland affecting any class, but that, like au electric shock, the stroke is felt through out the chain. Let us then relieve them from a stigma and degradation they find unbearable—let us us-relieve them from one of the greatest moral evils that can befal man. Steep a man iri poverty to the very lips, and his mind may remain unbrOken—but add contumely and insult to his misfortune, and he feels the bitterness of his situation. The greatest of all evils, mental and moral degradation, poverty does not necessarily bring; but con tumely, if it fails to bring it, will rouse the energy of the mind it cannot bend. The sensitive people of Ireland, Hon. Gentlemen may depend it, are more alive to con tumely than any other people whatever. And, Sir,. re) far from being indifferent to emancipation, every.act of the people of Ireland proclaims their desire for it. The asser tion that they are indifferent to it must originate in ignorance of the state of that country.—(Hear, hear.) They have, Sir, the strongest of all feelings; that which, under a wise Legislature, would he made the foundation o f th e i r happiness—a feeling of pride in themselves, a feeling th a t they do not deserve to be a degraded people. It is a f ee t. ing which might serve as a fulcrum on which to m ove the whole nation. If that feeling be satisfied, all other evils, comparativaly small, will be alleviated. The feeling of the people of Ireland is manifest on this subject What greater proof need we seek of the desire of the Catholics for emancipation than the collection of the Catholic Rent? (Hear.) If it was only matter of interest to a few lew yers, who wish, and properly wish, to be able to reach the highest honours their profeseon.. will alloW—or to a few noblemen, who desire to be. placed as they ought to, be placed, in that rank in the Legislature to which their birth entitles them—or to a few . Commoners t who wish, as they ought to wish, to hold seats in the Lower House of Parlia ment—the Catholic Rent would not be what it is. If it were only these learned, noble, and respectable -perscos, who were interested, the poor man would not be anlsious to put by a small portion of the small pittance on which he lives, to receive what he considers a stigma and disgrace. (Cheers.) It is said that Catholic Emancipation cannot make the poor rich. That may he so : but at the -same time I beg Hon. Members to consider whether what they so triumphantly assert goes the whole length they seem to wish. I beg then to call to mind the reasons which Mr. Pitt adduced in support of the Union. One of the chief was, that it would tend to snake the poor rich--,(Cheers) —by producing that state of things in Ireland '.which would make the country habitable to its native proprietors. (Cheers.) That it would 'then become a field for English speculation, and the employment of English capital ;- and that by the force of these united and concurring causes, it would be raised from that abject state of poverty in which she had been so long cast, and give profitable employ ment to that population, which has since, to the de struction of English prosperity, so overflowed its bounds. Whether or not the measure would have the effect of drawing English capital into Ireland, it would at any rate prevent from' leaving it that capital which is now drawn front it, because it is in such a state that no gentleman, unless connected with the Government, or influenced by very powerful motives, can possibly live in it. It is im posible to say What measure would be a panacea for the evils of Ireland, whether Catholic Emancipation or any other, but I am sure, even if all the good expected from it fail, that it would be well to relieve the people from the eapeCtation of it. Let it be tried, even if it be certain that no beneficial effect will flow from it. Even if all other effects were wanting, that which, in my mind, is worth all the rest would he sure to follow. Every man would consider himself equal to his fellow. No one set of men would be able to look down upon another as their in- Then, in the word, of a modern poet, will " Each subject boast his rights to scan And learn to venerate himself as man." —(Cheers.) —Peace and harmony will then prevail far different from the jealousy and heart-burning now prevalent. Sir, this measure is not taken up with any hostile feeling tewards the Church of England, but quite the reverse. The success of this measure will. not weaken the Church of England, or, perhaps, I ought to say, of the United Empire, but rather strengthen it. I say, that the great enemies of the Church are those who make. it so great an ' evil, that it is impossible to support it except by. an amen.: mutation of penal statutes. Those. Who hold - it up in that point of view are they who wish to undermine it. If it were true that the Church of England is so.weak,. that -it cannot stand without such contingent grievances, as those who oppose Catholic EMancipation on this ground assert, I should say that it ought not to be supported. But, Sir, it is not true, for the Church can etand without these vain props. The Church is weakened by being made the pre tence of oppressing Ireland. It incurs an odium which it is our duty to remove. Let us remove it, and it will be much better established in the hearts of men than now— on vain oppression. Is it right that the Church should he thus held up as the cause of all grievances? I said at the outset, and I say now, that I preferred the Church of Eng land. I prefer it for various reasons. One, which 1 think the best any man can - have for preferring one good religion to another, is, that I consider it to be founded upon th e most liberal, tolereut, and wise principles.—(Cheers.) —Much, Sir, may be said in proof of this assertion ; but I have considereble difficulty iu describing what the Church of England is except by negatives. It is not Catholic, yet it varies not very greatly from the Catholic. I reipember that the Rishop of Rochester said that the Roman Catholics were nearer and dearer to us than any other religious sect differing from the Church of Eegland. It is not Calvinist; yet, at the same time, we have so touch of Celvinism in the Church, as to make the two bear a very close resemblance, It is riot Lutheran ; but still there was something of Lutheranism in it. Aug what was it intended to be? The Church of England was founded on comprehension—(Hear, hear, hear.)-_a comprehension liberal, tolerant, and wise. That which is most obrioninee, ehe moot foreign to its spirit, is, and which, in the end, win be found of the greatest prejudice to it, the principle of exclusion, against which I have this day centendeda—(ik:wo If this principle of religious liberty be promoted in Ireland, those benefits will follow which in other parts of the world have followed it; and in a shunt time England will feel the blessings of a real union between the two countries. The Church, 1 say, will stand more firmly without this miserable protection, which f must call ari ineumbranee. Let the Church get rid of what are ee;led its securities, and it will be perfectly secure. What can be more facile than to talk of a written paper, or a test, as being a security for the Church. Sgeh misel able helps are looked upon jn their proper light be liberal Churchmen in the other House. They asserted the streng` r h of the Church in a manner which became their learning; charity, aril eeal. - Their conduct has done tbem selves and the ('hu,'ch to which they nelong the highest henour;—(fteer4.) They are better bulwarks of the Church than any of these proposed defences that have lately been removed,- e (lleile, hear.) Exclusion, they have proclaimed, except in cases of dire necessity, to be hostile to the interests of the Church. Religious tests were de clared by them to be inimical to religion. To use the e - preF,7ire words of the Liebe') of Chester, religious tests eteh.nger re;igienee sincerity. Doubtless they offer a pre mium to ieligidn; ineiue.eeity. in the enlightened times in which we now live,' a ;51mp,.e anneeetneeeeent of the fact of such tests and disabilities existing, one would tiein le . sufficient to have them removed. They are disabilit ies im posed in times long past, for reasons long since gone.' I say, then, that living in the year 1 A 29, far advanced in the pen. century, one would think it sufficient to announce the fact 'Of !heir cont;nuizer to evist, to gain the assent of every gentleman presint'ah do aveire with 9uela insecuritie s both to the Church and State. 'Die one eat. doubt th“; if tey are an insecurity to one, the Church ana State being interwoven, they are an insecurity to both. The Church is represented as being to the State like the ivy round the oak. If we invigorate the oak, then the ivy—if the Church and State lie con nected iii'itAngaieepieg the State (and what more than this raaaaure van strengthen it) ;we strengehee. the. Church. The tests cannot, in the mind of any pe FP' support to the Church. The declaration we make wh e 4i'w e enter this House, as it matter of form, we think not of ; but whael we do think of it, pain must be the predominan t (Hear, iier,ea) Whenever I think of the decla ration we Make at that tal4 I eenai4ea Pe; 7 pronounce • , a foul calumny against some or-tne meet virtuous' and }era' In with whom I• am acquainted.' - (Cheers.) We are enliq to tepreee sentiments of persons whom we in "tiai 1;44 sadist;} 'O4 esteem, which are as degradi ng t o ourse l ve s as thd MT IP those against whom they are uttered—(Cheerile.--aintaien ta which no man with the common feelings of a gentleman would venture to pronounce in any other place. (Cheers.) Let u: - ; cast off the opprobrium and shame the utterance whirs a "decieration of that sort must draw upon us. I cannot conceive that we shall inn any danger by no doin. Let us remove these old, clumey securities, raised against dangers long since passed. Let us not encumber ourselves with the armour of other days, iptended to ward off wee- pons no longer used. If new dangers arise, we may raise otter defences more suited to the times. If I were ar- going imposed these tests and disabilities were obsolete and null, on that plain maxim of the law, " cessante rations cessat et ipsa lex," and no man can pretend that the reasons for these laws are not altogether past and gone—for ever. (Cheers.) I hope I have said enough to prevail with the House, at least not to retrograde from those sentiments which it for mes* expressed on this subject. There icone other point which I shall mention, more for the consideration if thos:. who differ from me, than from any very great importance which I attach to it myself. It may be observed that I have not said a word about aecurities. My own opinion is that there needs no securities to which a man of sense may turn his attention at this time of day. There wants no security but that which ie derived front subjects hav ing administered to them equal laws. Let equal laws be administered, and the people will be happy; "id est firmissimum imperium quo obedientes gandent." I wish the Irish to rejoice in, and not to lament, as they long have had occasion to do, their connection with this coun try. (Cheers.) So satisfied am I, however, of the feel ings of the Irish towards this country, judging from the past, that though I call upon you to grant what I ask as a long contracted debt, yet it will he received by them as a boon with feelings of gratitude, and with the same goad faith and feelings as they have evinced on all former occa sions to their benefactors. They have never violated their faith in the smallest degree towards those who have bene- Stted them, as we shall if we do them justice. If, how ever, there are any Honourable Gentlemen who have minds so constituted as not to be satisfied without securities against dangers, which, for my part, I cannot foresee, I say to them, let us get rid of the old securities as we have got rid of the old dangers, and then if you insist upon it, we will devise new remedies for new evils. If you can place faith in an amulet hung round the neck, or in a horse shoe nailed over the door, to prevent the entrance of witches—(A laugh)—if your fears of the imaginary phantom you raise up to yourself can thus be allayed, I am not one of those that would deny you satisfaction. And those whose cause I advocate are willing to yield every thing, save honour and conscience. —(Cheers.) —They ac knowledge duty to their country, but their sours their own. Any security not repugnant to the principles of the religion they profess (the refusal to give which is the greatest of all the securities we can have)—(Cheers) —they are willing to give. I think none necessary, lint I do not, therefore, object to its being given ; for those who fancy the danger way think it a security. Let then any security, with the limitation I have mentioned, be proposed, and it will be given. Any Gentleman then who thinks security neces sary will agree to the motion I am about to make, as the only means of obtaining his object. When we are in Committee, should by possibility such a feeling of the necessity of a security arise in the breast of any man, then will be the time-for him to propose it. The Honourable Baronet concluded by moving—" That the House resolve itself into a Committee, to consider the state of the laws affecting his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ireland, with a view to such conciliatory amendments as may be to the general satisfaction of all parties." The Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud cheers. Mr. BROUGHAM seconded the motion, which having been read, The SOLICITOR-GENERAL rose at nearly the !arise time with Mr. Perceval, for whom they were loud calls, but that gentleman yielded to the Solicitor-General, who after the noise of cheering had subsided, said--s There is one very important point in this question to which I ex pected the Hon. Baronet would have more applied himself than he has done. When we find, that from the Reforma tion downwards, it has been the anxious design of this na tion, by laws passed with the greatest consideration, to strengthen and confirm that Reformation, I did expect to hear some arguments offered in proof that some change had taken place in the opinions of those formerly removed by those laws from the rank which they held in the State. I expected some such arguments, in order to have induced the 'louse to accede to this motirn. The Hon. Baronet's wish is to have no securities or pledge ; and kern all that we can learn, the Catholics themselves are unwilling to give any ; yet are we called upon to grant them privileges that will enable them to injure us. The Hon. Baronet's proposition is to remove the restraints imposed by law for the protection of the Established Church, from 6,000,000 of people completely under the guidance of their Priests and Bishops---(Cheers)--and not only that, but to allow them, if not to be through the priest, under the government of a foreign power, at any rate, much subject to its interposi tion and controul. Ido say that, from the earliest period at which England was a nation, there never his been such a state of things as the measure the Hon. Baronet proposes would introduce. I will endeavour to follow him through the principal portions of his speech, and trust I shall, be able to convince the House that the claim be has set upon the part of the Catholics, has no ground on which to stand. With respect, in the first place, to the Treaty of Limerick, I think I shall chew that both its words anti spirit are in direct opposition to the conclusion he has come to. The Hon. Baronet says that he should like it to be examined in a Court of Justice as the title of any other claim might be. I will deal with him more fairly than he wishes, for in Courts of Justice we construe all contracts to the very letter, but in this I will put the most ample construction the spirit of it will allow. Even then I shall come to a very different conclusion from the Hon. Bart. Now, it appears clear, that throughout this treaty, two sets of persons are contemplated. In the first article, all Ca tholics in general seem to be included ; but the second relates exclusively to those in the city of Limerick, or that were then under the controul of different officers in King James's pay. I am sure, and I say it advisedly, that the Honourable Baronet will agree with me, that this must be the right construction of the treaty, if be will turn his attention to the provisions of an Act passed soon after. The Act to which I allude is the 7th of King William, passed in 1695. It was an Act passed for the general disarming of the Catholics ; but he wil find that the fourth section of it exempts from its opera tion all such persons us were included in the Treaty of Limerick. What can this mean but that no Catholics ex cept those actually in Limerick,were affected by the treaty. If all Catholics were included in it, the Act I have quoted would have been inoperative. This, I think, is a proposition which cannot be controverted. The first article, as I have already stated, applies to all Catholics ; but the question is, whether all Catholics are not merely to be en titled to the free exercise of their religion, which that article provides, hut whether no laws were thereafter to he passed to alter their condition in any manner. Whether, for example, if circumstances were to arise to call for such a measure, they were not to heexcluded from the two Houses of Parliament ? If they meant to have bargained for any such thing, they used words as foreign to the purpose as it was possible for them to have found out._( Hear, hear.) —Sir Toby Butler, whom the Hon. Baronet had jnstly mentioned with great praise, was himself in Limerick at the time, and passed out with the rest of the army with all the h onours of war, jt cannot be supposed that a man of such ability, and to accomplished a scholar, could have been concerned in, or have even known of, such an instrument, so worded to express a meaning so different. With respect to the ninth article, which provides that the oath of allegience shall he the (Italy oath the Catholics shall fake—that cannot be meant to apply to all Patheliee, but merely to those who were then about to submit themselves. —(Heer, hear.)—lndeed, it was impossible that it could apply to ail Catholics, for already they were obliged to take other oaths. All who held ptsblic ofAcee were obliged to take the oath of supremacy.` The 2d of Elizebeth, and the 26th of Charles 11., both imposed oaths. Now, the 'treaty could never have meant to relieve Catholic% generally from taking these oaths, since, even if any of the persona in Limerick had wanted to hold en office of *ate, after- Wards, jt would have been . neceeesery for freem to takO the oath I have mentioned.' Mine, therefore, contend is the true construction of the treaty. But, besides the argument is bail, for it proves ton much. If there is anything in it at all, it applies that King William bound himself, whatever circumstances might arise hereafter, net tq diminish the privileges the Pathelice then enjoyed ; to that, in point th tethOlie be off than the protes. \701114 . tent, for the latter, it cannot be 'Oll6l, might have his situation altered by the Legislature in any rummer cir cumstances might direct. If, for example, a Protestant was disabled front obtaining a seat in that House, unless he had an estate of 300/. per annum in land, a Catholic would be liable to no such disability. Is it a statesman 'tile? view of the su bj ec t to co h ac k to an o ld T rea ty made a hoindrea c'ed chi y re,; , ,rp ago, and to found an argument now on the iffiegetf breaA`of that which wag never before declared to be broken ? And that too without taking into consideration the solemn cOmpicis SubSeqiiently entered into on the occasion of the Union of England with Scot -470 T-eland? Is it, I repeat, a statesman - like way of arguing i 6 piifforward such a • `freitty ? `sileppoe2 the !lodic sliould'; legislating on a subjects rake uP some old Treaty made in the time of the Wars between the Muses Of York and Lancaster, of in the reign of Henry 11., or Mieard I:,:xing on the inhiect of their legi s lation, I ask; 'ought' th e Heine to place tiny reliance oe arguments founded on doeume'ntS of such remote antienity ? Surely not ; but how did the Irish theMselves act in relation to this treaty? They did not consider the Treaty in the same view that the Hon. Baronet looks at it ; for in the Parliament that sat in the o,c . PA)ff fOlowing, not a doubt was expressed intimating a violation of the Treaty.— No, it was reterved for those days p assert thtiteeee(Chcers. —I contend, that all the lawyers, from Lord Coke down wards, declared their opinion that England had a right bind Ireland. In the Parliament that met in 1692, the Catholics were asked to take that oath (of Supremacy) and they must have declined ; for it appears there was but one Catholic Cinimoner in that Parliament—the Repre sentative of the county of the town of Tuam. In fact, a construction has been given to the Treaty of Limerick which was never dreamed of at the time.—ln giving to the Catholics the privileges they enjoyed in the reign of Charles 11., it was never contemplated to admit them into the House of Commons. Sir, there is no stability at all in the argument. But the Hon. Baronet complains that the Catholics have been deprived of inalienable rights; now this is not the case. The lion. Baronet confounds natural rights with political privileges. I agree with him, that every subject of the state has a right to life, liberty, and property ; and that the Government that would invade those rights, would not only violate all law, but would be actin on a principle whose operation must destroy that Government itself; but to deny public offices to persons holding opinions injurious to the state, is quite another thing from the deprivation of natural rights; hut never, since the memory of man, were persons holding opinions detrimental to the state allowed to exercise office in that state. Sir, the idea of such a thing is most absurd. Who would make a Quaker, who holds the doctrine of non resistance, the General of an army? or a German Ana . baptist, who holds that all property should be in common, a Judge? or one of the fanatics of the times of Cromwell, a dignitary of the Church? Sir, the violation of natural rights sounds well ; but the abridgment of political privi leges is not to be confounded with penal laws.—Penal laws are those enactments which inflict punishments on a man for worshipping the Divinity according to the dictates of his conscience : against such laws I shall ever raise my voice; but to exclude from office persons holding opinions detrimental to the state, is not a punishment. It is ab surd to suppose it. Cum ventum ad verum est, senses moresque repugnant, Atque ipsa utilitas, Justi prope mater et 92 qui. Sir, a review of our laws to the remotest period will show the great caution with which our ancestors provided for the safe and indissoluble union of the Church with the State. Looking then at the grounds on which they en acted those laws, and on the circumstances of the present time, is there, I ask, any sufficient new reason that can warrant us in throwing open the door to rash innovations? I will not here detail the feuds and animosities that give rise to those laws.. It is sufficient for me that I find them in existence, and I will not cast such a libel on the wisdom of nur ancestors—(Cheering from the Opposition side) — as to suppose they enacted them without adequate reason. Sir, I contend that these laws were enacted by some of the wisest men that ever lived. At the period of the Refor mation these laws were moulded by men who were the ornaments of their times.—ln the reign of Queen Eliza beth an Act was passed, the preamble of which recited, that the Commons prayed her Majesty to revive those Acts which had been repealed in the preceding reign, con demning, as illegal, those claims usurped by Foreign Powers to exercise dominion within the realm, and uniting all authorities and jurisdictions under the dominion of the Crown ; and it is worth remarking that the Commons in that were claiming no new power, but the restoration of one that had been for a season suspended. Thus the first and second of Philip and Mary were repealed, and the old Acts against foreign power revived. The next legisla tion on this subject was immediately after the Restoration, when Arts were passed, ordering the oaths againit Popery to be taken on entering offices in the State and Corpora- tions. The object of these laws of the reign of Charles was to strengthen the union between the State and the Reformed Church. Then, coming down to the Revolution, no man will say, that the enactments then on this subject were more than a restoring of the laws to that condition in which they had been before the reign of Jamesthe Second. Look at the care with which the Coronation Oath was drawn up—that oath to be taken by the King, by which he promised s' to observe the laws of the land, to respect the laws and Gospel of God, and to maintain the Protestant Reformed Religion." But, on the obligation of this oath, it has been said by one side that they are so strict that they cannot be relaxed, and by those on the other side that they are not binding on the Monarch in his legislative capacity. My own opinion is that the Mocarch cannot, by his Coronation Oath, give his consent to any law which he believes in his conscience to be detrimental to the interests of the Established Church. Nor did the legisla tive enactments on the subject stop here. In 1707, when the Act of Union with Scotland passed, the same care was taken by the legislature to exclude foreign supremacy, and to protect the Reformed Protestant Church—for by that Act all persons taking office were bound to take the oath to support the settlement of the Established Church: A. century after that came the Irish Union, when the same caution was used for the protectiOn of the Church ; in fine, there is not one national compact entered into since the Re formation, in which it has not been expressly provided, that the Established Church should be indissolubly united with the Government. As to the laws declaring the abo lition of the supremacy of the Pope over the affairs of this kingdom, I am aware that the Hon. Baronet holds they went only to the abolition of his spiritual and ecclesiastical supremacy—that the temporal supremacy of the Pope is but a bugbear, and that he claims over the Catholics of these kingdoms only . a spiritual domination. Is it so? No; and any person who will look into the laws will see that more than spiritual power was claimed by that foreign Potentate; and that the objects of all of them was to ex clude all'domination claimed by the Court of Rome. This appears even from a law wrung from a most reluctant King, in which it was recited, that England had been al ways subject to the Kings of England, and that the claims of Rome to exercise power in England were un lawful, and ought not to be submitted to. Would our ancestors have enacted those laws if the power had not been claimed by the Court of Rome, or if his temporal supremacy was a mere bugbear ? Would the act of premunire have biro passed in those times, if thereikad been no reason to dread the power of the Pope? Wry, Sir, even Doctor Doyle himself, one of the titular Bishops of the Roman Catholics, has acknowledged that the Pope enjoys not only spiritual and ecclesiastical power in these kingdoms, but real authority ; and that these formed part of that faith which every Catholic was bound to believe. All persons know that testamentary causes of Catholics were sent to Rome for decision—but what have testa mentary causes to do with the spiritual supremacy of the Pope ? Besides, the Pope gave decisions on questions of the legitimacy of the children of Catholics, and on doing so made appropriations of the hereditary property con nected with the question, and so exercised a domination not merely spiritual, but really temporal. The question then for our consideration is, whether that change of opinion has taken place in the opinions of the Roman Ca tholics which could warrant us in throwing open the d oors of oMee to them without exa c ti ng any test for the security of the Established Church. I shall prove that no such alte ration has taken place, but that their religion' opinions are still the same as ever, and productive of the same mischief —nay more, I say that the Catholics ask now of us more than ever they enjoyed when theirs was the religion of the land—for there was no time, I contend, no period in our history, when the Bishops were not appointed by the Crown; but that they object to the interference of the Crown in the appointment of their Bishops, appears from the conduct and declarations of those among them most interested in the question-a-these Thai:lns—for I find them after the Legislative had intimated a wish to grant their claims on receiving certain securities ; I find that, on the 27th of May, 1813, the Catholic Bishops declared in assembly, that the security demanded was inconsistent with the interests of the Catholic religion. Now what was that security? That no person disallowed by the Crown, should bp appointed Bishops. Nor were the Bishops the only authorities against the concession of that security, they were followed by the Parish Priests of the Diocese of Dublin, who resolved, that to grant the power of ap pointing Catholic Bishops, to . persons not Catholics, was not only inexpedient, hut injurious to the cause of Catholicity. Now, Sir, I contend that they ask more than they ever did before, unless they place in front of their petition the security required in ISO. But, Sir, I shall prove that they ask more than is allowed to catliclics in any state in Europe. And. first, in Austria. it appears from the Report of a Committee, in 1816, that in Austria the Catholic Bishops are appointed by the Emperor ; in Naples, on the very threshold of the Roman dominions no Bull of the Pope is valid until confirmed by the royal exequatur ; in Pran c e the King appoints to all vacancies, and even ll: Spain, the strong hold of Popery, no 1301 l of t h e Pbpe is valid until it has received the consent Evenit of e Icing, who appoints to all ecclesiastical vacaoc• e !' Where the Greek religion is the astablisnen fai t h, as different from the Catholic al the Protestant is, and d no r Bishops are appointed by the Aml n "' to a l n ie (4 rescript of the Pope's is by law alloWe published, where the catholic Religion is only tolerated, the Catholic until referred to the Senate, and sanctioned by the Em peror. In Prussia, where the larger portion of the popu, lotion o and r i i s t . y oufthaelriabne,raland acute the lesser Catholic, we hav e t h a Adams, now Chief Magistrate of th e United States, th en Pleaipo . tentiary to the Qourt a Berlin, who says th a t t h e ap pointment of the Catholic Bishops i n Prussia rests w ith the Icing of Prussia that he has declar e d hi mse lf Head of all the Churche s within his dominions, and the P o p e ac minded mart, ni t . Vicar-General under hira—(a laugh); and that the only appeal from hie Majesty's,deciaio4 lies (not_ to the Pope)o but to a Provincial Synod. Some opposition to thee (his Majesty of Prussia's) claims to ecclesiastical pate were at first made by a Chapter, but the Chapter was ul timately obliged to submit. So I say, if we should insipoo, securities on the Catholics—that is, in case concession o f their claims shall ever be made to them—we shall finU that the Catholics, though they may resist at first, - *ill submit at last.--(Cheering.)—On this grounk • tben. I must declare my opposition to • the claims of the Catholics :—that no alteration has taken place in . the Catholic belief; that they have not advanced one ate? in renouncing their opinions. Nave they been . md by the Church of Rome? If they had . been, the CS' tholics of these kingdoms would have been.glad to publish the fact. Then I say, that up . to this time no ecclesiasti° cal power whatever that exercises authority over ihe tholics, whether Pope, Bishops, or Council, has repounced the mischievous opinions that gave rise to the restrictiY° laws against them. Sir, Ido not allude now to men theological opinions. God forbid, that I should ever s'4l - restrictions on my fellow-subjects on the ground of those high and mysterious points of belief that form the foundation of purely theological opinions. No, I object to them on account of their political opinions—opinions iv jurious to the union of the Church and State. Our an' cestors held the union of the Church and State indispeu' sable to the national good, or as Andrew Martin strongly put it in his book, that the Church and State were indhe so!ubly united, and that one of them could not stand after the other had fallen. Now, the Catholics hold that theis Church is exclusive; that it is the only Church ; the CV tholic Bishop of Killala has deelared that he considers 11 0 Bishop out of the pale of the Catholic Church as a Bishop. Dr. D'Anglade, Professor of Moral Philosophy in the Ca' tholic College of Maynooth, says that if the Pope and a Council should jointly declare the Pope infallible, it would be the duty of the Catholics then to believe in the infalli bility of the Pope. Now, though the Catholics profera not to believe the Pope infallible, may they net, in case should concede their claims, summon a Council the nest, day and declare the infallibility of the Pope an article As' their faith ? When the same ' person is asked by any ce of the Commissioners, whether, if a Cath o li c Council'' should declare a certain opinion to be an article o f 'the- Catholic Faith, he would believe that article, how does he' answer ?—Not candidly—not directly—but thus, that hv does not think it necessary to answer the question as 0 was not likely the case put could ever be realised. Nosh is that the answer of an honest man? Sir, I say it is flot —it is a Jesuitical evasion. Further, this witness, o °' being interrogated on the power of the Pope to -dieptoof with the obligations of en oath, denies that the Pope hi°, the dispensing power, except in cases where the rights c` superiors are concerned. Does not this acknowledgre o. intimate that the power of the Pope, (he being a superior to every Catholic) is one of the excepted cases. Can yon then with safety, admit to office in the State, persons hold' ing that opinion? But when this same witness is askeA whether there is not, in the class-book used by the. Mar nooth student, an opinion different from this last doctritie laid down by him, he answers that there is in the clap book an exception to the effect that the Pope has not the power of allowing a man to dispense with his oath in coo.; where the common good is concerned. But in what part 0 ; the hook does the House think this exception stands; Why, twenty pages before the place where the g enera' rule is laid down—thus, by this precedence, giving tf, the exception the prominent appearance of a getter' rule in the eyes of the Students. Is this mode of pre: seeding, I ask the House, candid or honest ? I belt" then, that this proves the Catholic religion of the Pr e ; sent day to be the same as in times past, or, as one s' their poets said of it, ‘, immortal (by the way, this' WO rather too strong a stretch of fancy) and unchanged." V ag j changed it certainly is. Then look at their aversion v' the diffusion of the Scriptures. Even so lately as let the reading of the Scriptures was denounced by o ne of the; Bishops. I wish, too, to observe, that fr o m th e mome nt at which the Jesuits were suppressed, the Catholics sce lf ,, allowed the enjoyment of greater powers, and we 10 t therefore take the time at which the dissolution of the order took place, as the era from which good feeling trr wards Catholics had its commencement in this country e / _, The House will remember, too, that it is only three four years since the Pope thought proper to re-estnblie" the order of Jesus, stating, in a bull he published of° the occasion, that he had been induced to do so in cos sequence of the daily , representations he had reveiT from the bishops and dignitaries of the Catholic Churc h { offering abundant proof of the utility and excellence the order. It appears accordingly, from various PT / that the spirit of the Catholic Church is unchanged , as ye think that without following the subject further, I t it shown enough to convince the most sceptical of this. •P", before I .it down r wish to remark, that the titst Ot" eireu of the securities offered by the Roman Catholics being &Or niched from 1813 is not an auspicious sign, and that th e tone assumed by the Roman Catholics upon the press ll/ occasion, is not of that respectful nature it was went 0 ,, be.—(Hear, hear.)—Their addresses and petitions are 0 1 written in much stronger language than they have ever bes before.—(Hear, hear.)—And I do entreat the House tf pause on the last general election in Ireland, and I will sa° those Hon. Members who were present at it, whether that extreme dominion exercised over the lower order of Roman Catholics, by their Priests, in opposition to the duties thel owed to those who had invariably treated them with kilo' aeon and consideration, and whom they had been alway s the habit of regarding with the utmost respect and deference' does not know that if the power of these Priests was 0 1 unlimited, it would produce a strong effect in this Hou se For myself, too, I must say that I do not attribute the distr e : 13% in Ireland to the causes so often alleged, and that are under consideration. I believe, that if we give the- Ir r , peasantry education—if we encourage the diffusion o_,.f t it ; light of the Scriptures among them—if we promote MP_ j i of industry, and so succeed in opening their underst s "4 ing, we shall teach them how to deserve the benefits to which they ask, and at last render them capable and etortli of receiving, with proper guards, the gift they so anxio i desire. I have now delivered my opinions fearlessly 111 ,. A openly, but I trust in a manner becoming an individua l 11 " ; humble as myself. I shall be always open to conviction , bou t so long as I conceive I have reason to retain my Pre ° , opinions, so long shall I consider myself bound to opr this motion. ko Mr. SPENCER PERCEVAL then rose and sP° • from under the Gallery , iu a tone of voice that wash r e ! quently inaudible. He said, that from his early yout 114 had imbibed strong prejudices upon th e s u bj e ct then be the House, and that he h a d b een strong l y i l l a rl oppose d to ur claims of the Roman Catholics ; but while he was r." very young Memb er o f t h at H ouse , hi s m i n d h a d begu° o y waver, and he felt disposed to think that the fears an i alarms that many entertained were not founded in fact. s' ij t did then accordingly what he was convinced he sv° ° ,,,' never have reason to regret. He paid that deference to t ":„ opinions of others, which from their talents and emiue°`: they deserved, and he had not the stupid presumption t" set up his own prejudices in opposition to reason and arg ui meat. Having made this statement in justification of 1 0 ° 11 self, and having announced that it was his intention to fil l; port the motion of the Right lion. Baronet, he vl eu say, that lie felt more anxious to declare the ground,' ° which he did not support the question, than those I, which he did. The fact appeared to him to be, that t'", great question, which was the mighty and never fait cause of disunion between parties, stood upon a 'our " r a. principle. For what said Mr. Grattan, and my. P r ° ,, Grenville, and the other celebrated advOcates of the - of tholic cause, but that if they thought that succes°,„ this question would endanger the Protestant Establi; ment, they would not support it ? And what said t" Honourable Gentlemen and Noble Lords who ranged th e Si selves on the contrary side ? Was it not that they 'oii ire accede to the measure , i f they thought it could be pow" 0 safety ? The difference between th e t wo p ar ti es , there W fo , merely in judgment , and as to an untried fact. NoWsspirit which anim a t e d t h e Ch urc h o f Role v. a No, decidedly n o t ; f or h e h e ld i n consfielj himself. he did no t su pport the question because lie argument by whi c h i t was at t em pt e d t o be '` pro e t th l i i l a aa t tngs t ie h ide r . that it was, contained a most mischievous illusioe. f ie lievei that the Roman Cath o li c Religion was a foul p olls tion of the word of God. A n d y e t, feeling this to h e t a b; b case , he would y e t a d vocate the quest i on ; because, th°Z9 he did not admit th at t h e R oman C a th o li c Church If changed in principle, he yet thought she was ma de° controuled by th at which was around her. This ilistiec4 tion might, at present, appear immaterial, but lie was CI vinced that it was not. Fur, if the public mind were ol if induced t o t hi n k t h a t th e Ch uec h was Rome as re l ! fi e chang e d, th e country might feel inclined to si jet° indifference with respect to the dagger o f justly to be apprehended from the spreading tof Popery; but if, on the contrary, they continued e d persuaded that the spirit of the Romish Church reinel ee always the same, but that it was affected by the prsse t b of a Protestant atmosphere, under which scriptural tr.e.if and a spirit of inquiry were diffused, then would no vigilance be still alive to keep up that pressure, so li r ls have her always in the same state of harmlessness in se tor she then was in England. He allowed, that if the o co ' o . porters of the Church of Rome could once sucoeed io the n vincing Abe people of England that she was altered , a s might she again stretch forth her limbs, and occuPPos she had done before, every place with her huge bulk; o f his argument was, that though unchanged in essenc e ' l oo was yet materiallpehanrd by the light of Protest'. that had shone up *mush and amply et the. natuof the- t (continued the Igor foe his own good ai use.. Hi had here sail*rithibl e b as i s light,antorig all nte if rreteataritism eve aintitth e n om „ were not at that stance Could have time .rohen supersti lodgment in the wi and individual preji eustoni,4 holy re of the • Catholic Ch way npivirds, was all appliances and what it had conqur think that they cot ism, unles s th e y su !, incere loVe of relip its suffer in t) t ' B ° other days to 6 , Was there, / y of. its then himself, that there to turn their be rega done for that ni under: consideratio l ed that Ireland w nia llagues, whose Wto awake and pie ell the bad prit --- The *b ole isl °one of discord l; Principled- men. if th ere was any °t their grasp, than 1): man Catholics had .uore Obseiy at i on t ~° ll, t h e subject of tl all be.,prayed the- first 'place !•eitsctenuously in 1 in the second; that h e had done, he w giod t o the feel' tel l gave Phil' , I p i t t arr. M. FITZ( 44`orned Solicitor that were ealculat 110 doubt was wad( eo had brought f e.consideration 0 1,41 en frourthat • H Alit the Treaty t l in his opinior 'lrtett"ithan-like vie Vtiltht of : ferry) teetned Gentlema ~'":4nethad take of th e w h o l e -4k141 * arid Learned N ted i his attent i ol P r i a "t4l be, as it triu constructios i rts _ e ntlet ooo sa id, t 1 I — 's' of Limert th Li tY of Limer - In -anstirc ;_„Nnrable and I ;Lilicle of that T 1 „71, 'L jo ilabitants 01 4i .ors then wi d e: I J°7 all the henef 3'4▪ 14 treaty. Mu if the H on . a • intended Catholics,Cat he won , r Poae • it . was th ,7'ta on those w L e ktable subject el m Learned. Learned. Gent t tatutes, •o ut -411 Of the &eel 1114 the' opp o sit e tkl bY the Hon. a tha b t if the oath 4 b ll he Winild nal '4otaheth was n ? a mt if her enhjec' - "" i f they were n io those days a l/l /be f o ll owe d b b ' e t all these circa 1{ lukeeessary to di r ecollect e d to " b il e of her s p eec h P h t 4 to religio: Whathe and his f they e ntreated ti tht were felt li te fr Is 01 4 end ' Z 111 : 41 .4 mass of c W'"tt learned an stion exceedin 2fter--it was, ir2 connected W kteurities the' Ztal these 2°' hi,7 th erefore oul tleitg, to ha ve coa l he points f j: m ed himself E 1 that was offs Z. Pitt h ad add Nio 1791 he e r e, that he L to atill 1 1 t s e • mit redi touoi o jisyyt y snraaft desirous(i) a nitwhm laule t eetg, b e: nd 1 , 4 f other course c io' oo co untry. i t t4 all, th e motif y 's• s likely Mr twtta, arose from p t P arliaments 14, 4 44 ;; . t il r l it t Y i h r e eed stru firs o e n t 1, 71 19 other the first kit'', Which as alarming o;let,reci thousai 1 1, 4 ,.nrning the "t l 7 under tl tltll 9 ' 4e iteed in t iv,- at first e tt`fe at 01 t i t Were not tc l t t o e 4 t, th af t 4 1 n h li 11; 1 ; 1 et c ee e niyim ea t . y eir t lan ded t r i ° e vent t i t h ave revs to,''eing joined )4, and on tli d rovi.aPetded. .i h this the docu ' t h.lll was still re tt la then ex • No r tio m a l ) itet clangi otit ane oirenee, tith. th at state 1 . 1% , 1 th e so lo , l° extingt /IN t trts of tl effect o * hick ha lrc o 10 'Touch voo,tr. could Ile i • of eo. phich n tt Iva" 14,... w et enl ig '"en gl7. °f the ev to e ( 11 Ir. F ;:!ordingly, In( 0" CNA jai 1111 Nbiect, hO4 la Our • in t Our terdueid 1 which. re: