The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

sent. The Learned Solicitor-General fer Ireland, whose experience upon such a matter must be very great, because be is one of those who, in his official capacity, has been of late frequently called upon to deal with.those persons who are deecribed, and perhaps justly described, as the dis turbers of 'that country; and he has dealt with them in a manner which reflects on him the highest • c redit—the Learned Solicitor-General, in a very able 'and elaborate speech, expressed his opinions as coincidin& veith those of the Right Hon. the Member for Kerry. Those opinions ?true been also confirmed by the Hon. Member for Louth, who mast be considered a good authority on the sub j ect, and - not only upon this occasion, but during the last year, did "'the Hon. Member for Kerry delhter sentiments of a Si milar character, They have all, very rawly others w ith them, described the condition of Ireland; and what is the condition which they describe ? What is the picture which they pourtray of the state of that country? Sir, it seems by their re presentations, that in Ireland there is a compact and a regularly organised body—e body, however, not re cognised by the Constitution, and disavowed by Parliament ; yet, a body possessed of and exercising considerable autho rity, collecting great resources for the carrying on of any plans, and able to excite or to controul the movements of a much larger body at will. Now, Sir, if such be the case, if there be such a body actually in existence, I care not though the picture may be somewhat overcharged, deduct what you please from it, if any portion of it remain behind, I say that it is fitting in the House, it is imperative on the Howie, to consider the matter without delay. The state of Ireland then, Sir, will teach the Members of this Parlia ment a useful lesson as to the bad effects of a long con tinued system of bad policy—will teach a memorable lesson as to how long the evil- influence of a bad system will sur vive, after the introduction of that system, and after those 'who enacted it, and those who first suffered under it, are go t es—will teach a memorable lesson that so long as a frag ment ethat system remains, so long will the misery to which it iesds testify against those by whom it was intro duced—so long' will the wisdom and the polity of our an moors be arraigned suul convicted. I think there is no gentleman in the House who heard the Right Hon. Mem ber for Kerry—be the prine: l nles of that. gentleman what they may.....wh e can fail to feel gene sorrow of heart at. the miseries created by the mistaken of policy we have hitherto pursued. The Hon.. Baronet has called upon you to consider this subject, and he has proposed the remedy moat likely to answer. ' Now, how has his proposition been met ? In what manner has it been opposed? It is, Sir, said that the Catholics will not be satisfied, grant them what concessions we may=-that they will not be satisfied that they will not he tranquillized. This then, is the principal ground of opposition to the motion now • before son ; and the assertion is founded upon statements of the violent language, the excited tones, the vehement oppo sition, and the increased demands, which they have made, • •or of which they have been guilty. Not contented with what they have had, it is asserted that they want more, and that they are not justified in asking for more, or at least in speaking in strong language when they ask it. Sir, this mode of argument is but a specimen of the way is wiejeb all such claims have been uniformly revealed—the v e ryovila of the laws have been the grounds for maintain ing their perpetuity. To demoralize the people, to depress and check their better feelings, to chill or to deaden their moral sense, to urge tiuma on to acts of evil which arise from despair—has Steen tile plan pursued, and then these are the very grounels put forward why that plan should not be changed. In all well eases, such 1488 been the consequence. When it wait sou eot to abolish the Slave Trade, the very barbarism of the Africa= was alleged 1114 the reason against any alteration. '1;:e system, , it now aiepears is acted upon to a still wider extent, With respect to Ireland. If they are in such a state as I have de. scribed, who hal made them so? You—you have deprived the people of that couutry of natural affection—you have destroyed among then? the beneficial influence of the aris tocracy, and you have pigccd them instead, under the con trout of the democrat or Prieet.—ycU have deranged the whole system—you have revel' ed the natural order of things—you have given drit to property which you have denied to numbers. In consequence of your decrees, the whole course has been irregular—you have,* indeed, given but a part of your glorious Constitution to that' country. What portion of it you have 'given has been given by piece meal. Our Constitution, Sir, depends for its health and fleecy upon its being enjoyed entiree-its very essence is eempoise. By giving but a part of it, you torment and afflict, instead of endear and unite. This you have done..- yea have given a preponderating influence to one party, ' while you have refused a Counteracting influence to another—and yet you complain of a state of things which you have yourselves created, and may destroy—Sir, the mass of the population of Ireland must be iadged of as we have made it. Then we are surprised at the existence of in aseceiatien in that country, when that association is the , offspring of these very laws, and which, so long as they exist, must, in some shape or other, east with them. It is also said that the Catholics will never be satisfied, be came the most violent amongst them bare the ascendancy over them. Such must naturally be the cast. If you re fuse their just demands, you compel them to ask for their rights; and, in such a course, the most skilful and the most daring will naturally be their leaders, while the most Moderate will be inevitably placed in the back ground. But if you are disposed to grant them that for which they fairly and justly ask, then the case will be reversed—the moat moderate will have the ascendancy, and the most violent be compelled to retire into obscurity. There ran be no reason, there can be no grounds, for supposing any other result. But, Sir, we are farther told, that they will ' never be satisfied with any concessions, because satisfies! they have never yet been. We have been told that they have gone on step by step, that demand baa kept pace With concession, and would in so until the Church Este blisboaent itself was gone. The Hon. Member for Ripon has thus put fortvard his argument on this point. About forty or fifty years ago the Catholics were granted certain rights, with which they expressed their satisfaction, over which they abundantly exulted, and for which they ex pressed their warmest gratitude—since which they have been eentinnally increasing in their demands. Such, Sir, is the gist of the arguments of the Hon. Member for Ripon. Now, dies the House know what these rights are—the right on which the Hon., Member has so much dwelt. Sir, they were the rights of property, of marriage, of education, and of a free exercise of religion—were they to be satisfied then with these? With these which awe received as nuesearupled bounties on the part , of England ? But it seems tlie 'CalholieS spoke of these grants in languag,e of high exaltation. Is it fair--is it generous then, for us to tarn round upon and reproach those men for the terms of attachment anal gratitude which , they expressed to wards the British Government? If they expressed their gratitude in unmeasuret: language for the granting ef such right s , l et us j u d ge o f the deep gratitude they would feel if other and greater rights were conceded cto them. Sir, it is in the nature of things, and if we look into the histories of all , nations as well as into the history of our own, We shall see that lig , first relaxa tion of Penal Laws, although previously these bed created only iadifference or torp or , inevitably • leads ia,a swat. of :straggles far greater relaxation, until arrived at that point at which justice is satisfied. Ancient history informs us that this was the case, in reference to the struggles of the Patricians and the Plebeians of Ancient Rome, the latter having long existed ru a state of perfect apathy, feeling the system relaxed, struggled on till all their rights were fully ac k no wledged by the former. So ix has been in our own woggles took place bet ween t h e hi gher rountr, whenever —.such struggles must al artd the lower grau a es ways be until fair demands are granted. I t i s iustice is accorded, a nd c ontrary to reason and experience, and OPPu'ed. to the re , G m., o f anc i en t hi s tory, to anticipate eny o herresult, to say that you can go so far and no further. It is as idle as t would be, where the tid e encroaches on the ;awl as far as the high-water mark, to so place a wall between trik• mark and its farthest receding point, least by coming far it should spread and inundate the country. Sir, the conduct we hav e pursued towards the Roman Cath°lie's j most , illexplexhie—there are three ptasitions on NOW:. we migh t have taken our stand; the first position is this-sew, gave them neither toleration ner the free exercise of their reli gion; the second is this—we gave them both toleration, but we gave them no privilege of civil eigiste ; and the third might have heel] this—we might have given to thew b o th toleration and civil rights—each of these is aelietiaet maintainable position. The tirst of them occurred during the penal code; we afterwards abandoned that, but we did not take up either of the others. We steered between both, we gave them toleration, and partly admitted them to the enjoyment of civil rights. By r , - very extraordinary acci dee,. we struck out the very course which we oug ht not— for if tie were not disposed.to extend to them all they justly elabled , tve were very unwise extending to them any portion of i t • We are surprised, then, that they cora has been pursued to war d s t h em. plain of the coniNct that But, Sir, my H o n. Friend, the Member for Hip n ex presses his anxious fears that the quantity of tho se c l a i ms would encroach on the Esteblished Church, of these realms. prosperity of th e Sir, I am as anxious as my Non. Friend, or any H on . Member can be, for the welfare and the Established Church--heing, as I am a member of that Church, by conviction nu less than by birth and educa tion. I am warmly attached .to it, gnd 1 feel myself bound to uphold and protect its interests. But 1 ask my Hon. Friend whether the present is re all y a satisfactory state in which to leave the Established Church, whether be con sider: be fulfils his duty to that Church, by leaving it =- founded by the odium 14 which it is now surrotioded,r.: Sir, for ire , own part, I support this question in a great degree, because I am aaxieus for the security of the Esta blished Church, the true interests of which I feel myself bound to defend. I am deeply desirous of upholding that Church, but by upholding it, I mean not its temporalities merely; I do not refer to the defence'of its civil power, or the structure of its outward walls, but I refer to it as IP- SpeCtS its high character, its pure tenets, and its doctrines of peace and good will to all mankind. It is encumbered by laws which degrade and disgrace it in the eyes of the people—if it ceases to be respected by them who do not belong to it—in what will its strength and safety consist? I wish to save it from that danger which must arise from the odium which the laws have cast upon it, and which I believe have always been most injurious to its true interests. Nothing can be more prejudicial to the Established Church, than to make it the bar to civil rights, and from it I wish to remove that dangerous odium. Sir, the safety of the Established Church boasts not in its tern pond power, but in the purity of its doctrines, the exem plary lives of its clergy, and in the Christian liberality of its sentiments, which, if it were not before known, must have been proved by events which have recently taken place—events which have proved, that that liberality exists not in theory but in practice. In' no way can the safety of the Established Church be so effectually insured as by acting up to the principles of its Divine Founder.— But when we are told of securities from the Roman Catho -1 lies, let us consider what is their situation now. Can we I be more unsafe than we are at present? We are told that there is a large, a powerful, and a united body, seeking to overthrow by every 'means which art and cunning can devise, the Established Church of this country. Yet we exasperate that very body by laws of a most irksome and degrading character, and expose the Church to the odium of being the bar to their admission to civil privileges. To me, it seems impossible for you to leave the Established Church in a more unsatisfactory state. I have alluded to the security of the Church, and I know there are many gentlemen sincerely desirous of conceding the claims of the Catholics, provided such concessions could be given in such a way as to secure the interests of the Church. They consider it right and fair that the Catholics should have what they demand ; but they are deterred by sonic vague apprehension of danger, not through the medium of this House, but by the interference of some foreign power.— Sir, I think that the beef security is in the measure itself. At present I know that all is utterly unsafe. Still I con sider that the House is hound to obtain securities in every way that securities can be given, provided such securities are sought as are not opposed to the Roman Catholics.— The pamphlet recently published—and published in good season—by Mr. Knight, is most satisfactory on this point. It proves that a state of things exist in other countries which might, and which undoubtedly would exist here, if a similar course were adopted. When I heard, the other night, the English Solicitor-General, quoting a variety of documents relative to the connection of the Roman Catho lics with foreign powers, I was quite at a loss to guess to what conclusion he would arrive. But when, at his close, to my great surprise, I found my Hon. and Learned Friend contending that if we imposed any securities we pleased on the Roman Catholics, they would submit to them ; this was the very argument on which I was satisfied to rest my cause. I always saw and felt that if the House thought proper to place securities, and if such and such was our law, we ought to say to the Catholics, if you wish to live under this law, you must he satisfied to obey it. But it has been always most difficult to say to what extent you would place these securities—that difficulty is now re moved, for it appears, by various statements made in the House, and it is shown , by the pamphlet of Mr. Knight, how far we can go in demanding securities without inter -1 fering with the consciences of the Reiman Catholics. We UtAy not, perhaps, consider it necessary to go so far, but we are at least aware to what extent we can satisfactorily go. The Hon. Member for Ripon expressed his strong desire to have satisfactory securities—his complaint was, and the usual complaint has been, that suffiuient securities cannot be given to us. Iltit we can now see the point to which we can go ; and we are enabled to say to the Ca tholics, we do not ask whether or not you will give them, because those, and even more, you have given in other countries. And now, Sir, I am pressed to take another view of this subject, as connected with foreign power.— It will ea be denied that since the long and protracted war, which bee for some years terminated, all the nations of Europe hare beep placed in a peculiar situation—that all of them have been induced to examine their internal state, with a view to prepare their resources, and together strength so as to be ready either for war Cr peace, as the event might he. This country Ire been thus engeged.— It has been turning its strict attention to its finance, and to all its ether internal affairs --trimming the vessel, as it were, to prepare her for the storm. which might in time gather around her. We have no; been alone in our move. I went—the exertions and the preparations we have made, have been made by every other European nozion. In safety we have been arranging the state of our finances, utterly forgetful of that fur which we might sacrifice all else—the strengthening of ourselves in another way against the danger that might arise. Sir, I will not dwell upon the dreary anticipation of a war., but if a war should some, I ask bow; considering the state in which Ireland is at present, with what feelings could we enter ieto it—the 'more especially when we recollect by what almost mini:Mona interference we were not long ago reeved from a danger the most imminent. During the war, and before it, we stood in the almost undisputed supremacy of the commercial world. The war (Tested, and channels Were opened to other nations for commercial specula tions, And the wealth that follows them. If we leave the wisdom to eelopt the wisest course—if we have energy enough to act as policy as well as justice calls upon us to act, we may for ages eAt to come retain the power and influence we have so long held. put let no man under value the effect of a united people-elet no man undervalue the importance of union at home. If there he not that union—if in our own country there exist an evil wiakcit impedes PUT resources, drains our treasury, and is con tinually acting, Po as tr.) cheek our intentions, and to ener vate our power. . If there be 4 part of our own dominion, per:a:Early inviting to d foreign Power, ie the event of a war, if it is at all times the nerd upon whielt en Attack is to be made—for be it rerrierniieree! tbat foreign natiepe are no strangers to the templeints which Irjend is continually, and has been continually making. They haVe heard of them long, end they have acted upon them. There Is no power that can at any time he at war with this country, which would not directly fix its eye upon Ireland, as deem ing it the vulnerable part of Great Britain—the quarter upan which an attack would be most likely to be success ful. Are we, then, to go on in the course we have here tofore pursued ? Have any other remedies been proposed ? I have heard of none. We only hear feom our opponents that we are to dismiss the question precisely in the same state in which it was introduced—that we are to leave ergs just as they are, and to be at perfect liberty to re ject ,psis proposition altogether. We have heard, Sir, of plans for improving the condition of Ireland—we have heard of plans fox exploring mines, for giving education, and for the spread of . csspitel in that country. There are many eacellent propositions fox bettering its state, and I heartily wish them success—but without this measure, I firmly believe that none of them can take effect, Not that I pretend, co one does pretend, that this measure of ,Ca. tholic Emancipation can effectually tranquillize Ireland—,. hut, Sir, it is nodeeheally the preliminary condition of succesta to every other measure. All who know Ireland, know well that 40 Jong as her present spirit remains as it is, and has long been, so king will that ;spine counteract every effort for her welfare and improvement—so long 01 then, her irritation be kept utneesei long will Oi s e he seeejbly alive to the most galling recollections, so 1011 g w ill her miseries continue--so long will every means to de her' good he of none avails—so long will her progress in arts, and her adveseesetowards happiness, be checked or prevented. Every one who hee herrn in Ireland knows this w a 2 11--no one who has not been in frelazid can be fully effects, 'e t :f i the truth of this statement. With the ppirit I refer e aital am well actinai • nteri-1 have seen it, I have Ware:h -i : Its ; w h how t h totally exp o'i itt° e'.edite. I know bow deeply it af- Poiso , ell her hopes and prospects— much subtlety it d ...„:7.iptiates itself into all prevents r ile efficacy of h er uncleetakinge, and mars i 4e; n ov i anZ i ge , --how compi.evly it totally it prom y ot o e . s discord, ant i anti to make her prosper—h ow seeds of di4sei.ata;oantcinsues unchanged. Jiteur Sir, are, What course ' . . ler every portion of her sur face.. 1.. S.Ways u y ek th se is ru im y po th r e ta h n o t p a e u o es f ti h a e n r . ; knooow,:chic:sBgtit it eews the a Pl re ° , 9 w Pe e r tt Y an l •to . .are we to adopt i All those discontent are. suspended—the best oarteee4,ourstale bw is desi T h i e u g a lo ggT i rea jor at tedlsniaueeirtr:geiirepsprroogvreemssen:maotn•eg dfit:qrciepdepolt,and. 7.-. r a. s.e the ,„ evil ilero of Vii it whose perpetua l exertions were coneta wa f Acfetted—whotie yirteueus l a hpurs were ever met by a n genius— virtues Petivit, -'-'"— Succe -- saum q de u a ae rira citi n e eg 'v a i t s . lP of this (Cheers,) —This is the .condition of that country, and en these principles, I commit it to the co anside o trationhe actual N House. I entreat of Hon. embers to rePect ft state of Ireland, and also on the state in W hich it P u gh t to be. hear.).--I. have not referred to many topica which have been introduced in the course of this discussion, among which were—the Treaty of Limerick, and the mea sure of Ike Legislative Union. I have abstained from th e s e topics, b ecause I t h ou ghtth em u nn e c e ssary in a case which aught to be decided upon its actual interests; X bas's eA.- deavonred to place the claiins of the English and Irish Roman Catholics not upon any of those foreign grounds, feeling that they are founded on the eternal principles of justice, on obligations of paramount authority, such as no Statesman, no warrior, can shake ; they are founded on that compact which must above all others be observed. On these principles I appeal to the House of Commons, and through the House of Commons to the people of England, and I trust that that appeal will be answered at the close of this debate ; but whether it be answered now or to-mor row, I know it will be successful.—(Cheers.) —I deduce this inference from every thing that I see around me in and out of this House.—(Hear, hear.)—ln justification of this expectation, I might mention the case of the two Universi , ties, which, on all former similar occasions, were amongst the foremast in petitioning against the Catholic Claims, while, in the present instance, we have bad a petition from that of Oxford, but a petition carried by no means unani mously ; and from Cambridge, no petitioa whatever.— (Hear, hear.)—l know there are many Hen. Members in this House, who are quite convinced that this question must at last be carried ; but who are nevertheless deter mined not to vote for it in the preeent instance. I appeal to these Hon. Members, and I ask them whether it be fair or just towards Ireland—whether it be fair or just to their own eonetituents—whether it be fair or just to the people of England--to allow this question to be agitated and brought forward, year after year. If, as they admit, it must eventually be carried, why not now, while ther e i s y e t time, give to an act of justice all the grace of an act of ge neresity.—(Loud cheers.)—Let, therefore, the House of Commons take this subject into its consideration—let the House of Commons till up tke blanks left is the Act of Union—let those Hon. Gentlemen bear in mind those me• morable words of Mr. Pitt, which, when they recur to my own mind, fill me with hope, " paribus se legibus ambat Invietw gentes sterna in feedera mittant." (Cheers.)—Let not foreign nations--let not foreign rulers or statesmen, or warriors, have it in their power to refer to that, which they will deem our weak and vulnerable let them not know our weakness—prove to them, that, if they reckon upon attacking 1151 through Ireland, in , any future war, it is but a delosion.—(Hear, hear.)—Let them see, that, having conquered other nations, we have the magnanimity to conquer ourselves.—(Cheers.)......On these principles it is that I beg of this House to take this subject into its consideration ; and I now, with confidence, leave it to your own impartiality—your own justice.-- (The Right Hon. Gent. sat down amid loud cheering.) Colonel DAVIES, never having ventured since he had bad the honour of a seat in that House to express his opinions on the subject then under discussion, trusted he might be allowed now to trespass on the attention of the House for a few moments. He confessed that he felt at first disposed to give to the motion of his Hon. Friend a decided negative, convinced that the question was not so much connected with the existing evils of Ireland as its supporters had contended; and also that the agitation of it at the present moment, so far from producing benefit, would have a directly contrary effect. He admitted that he had heard much of eloquence during this debate; but must confess that he had beard very little new in argu ment. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had spoken of the indefeasible right of the Catholics of Ireland to enjoy the privileges they sought. To that assertion of the Right Hon. Gentleman he gave his decided negative. Every State had, and ought to have, the power to impose such restrictions upon any portion of its popula tion as should be deemed necessary to the safety of such State. The right contended for by the Right Hon. Gen tleman was founded upon abstract principles; and, if we were to admit abstract principles at all, to what extent might they not he carried? The rights of females might equally be defended Nye abstract principles.—(A laugh.)—Yet who would venture to advocate them? Much stress had been laid upon Treaties, hat he thought that part of the sub ject had been exhausted, and should not, therefore, trouble "the House on it. If the claims of the Catholics rested on no more solid foundation he could see no case made out for conceding them. His Right lion. Friend, the Knight of Kerry, had drawn a formidable picture of the Catholic Asso ciation—that it exercised its power over six millions of men, and that it moved them as a piece of machinery, and as if they were animated with hut one soul. When he heard that, and when he heard the Solicitor-General for Ireland state that Ireland could never be tranquil until the Catholic Claims were 'conceded, he (Colonel Davies) must confess that he felt himself much astonished ; but still he could not go the length of saying what had been asserted by his Hon. Friend, for if we went so far, we must go still farther—indeed, SQ far as to grant emancipation tinconditionally.—(Cries of No, no. )—He understood the meaning pf that cry—it meant that the motion was only for a Committec,-.bnt the resolutions of a Committee were only confirmatory of the opinions of the Wane. The people of England were decidedly adverse to the claims of the Catholics at present—a case of paramount necessity must; therefore, be made out before the measure could be carried. Moreover, when he heard the statements made by other Hon. Chotlemen connected with Ireland, who, instead of advocating concession, called for additional re strictive measures, he was additionally fortiOed in his own objection to the motion. If, indeed, the Hon. Baronet had moved for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of Ireland, and to report whether or not this measure was necessary, in that case he would have supported his Honourable Friend's motion. It was always painful to bins to differ from his Hon. Friends with whom he was in the habit of acting-4ot he could not sacrifice his principles. AU that Ireland required was justice—(Loud cheers from the opposition)—not that spe cies of justice which Hon. Members contended was to be found io the epnceeeion of Catholic Claims, but that jus tice, that protection, which the people ought to receive from the laws, and tenants from their landlords.—(The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to argue against the assertion that all the feelings of the Catholics were engrossed by the subject before the House—drawing a directly contrary in.. ference frogs ;:heirluiescence after the defeat of the ques tion lees year.)---Fer the peesantry the concessions sought would do nothing, but he would admit that when the pea sent was ground down by oppression, and when he was told that Catholic emancipation would remove that oppres sion, the peasant very naturally said, "Then give m e prpancipation ;" hence the number of petitions. The Hon. gentleman said he should not further trespass upon the time of the House. He wished be could have sup ported the motion of his Hop. Friend; bait, for the rea sons he had stated, he felt bound to give to it tt 4ecided negative. Mr. HENRY GRATTAN admitted that he felt strongly on the question before the House, but if he felt strongly for Irish prosperity, lie also felt strongly for English secu rity. The Hon. Member ler Worcester denied that the Irish Catholics had an indefeasible claim tq peliticel eights, , but he eeigbt as well have denied his claim to existence. Every man was entitled to the right conferred upon him I by his God, and could not be deppiyed of them unless he should have forfeited them by his own miecoodna. The Hon. Member had referred to the Treaty of Limerick. He Concurred with Op Hon. Member in viewing the present question not as a questieoe of way tp he determined by any treaty, but as a question of justice, to kg &pilled o n by the common sense, sound understanding, and good and liberal feeling of the House of Commons. The Irish Ca tholkcs had lost their lands and their liberties ; the former were irretrieyably ekienated ? but was it surprising that they should pray that the latter be (stored to tiara? In proof of the respect the Irish people ez,g.erpaiff4 fpF the principles of justice, the Honourable Member here quoted the well.known words of Sir J. Davies, and proceeded to take a review of the state of Ireland during the lot fifty yearn, dwelling upon the fact that, in 178 2 , there were not :?,pop troops in frelepd—the defence of the Aokiptyy resting npon the volunteers, who amounted tp 100,060 41,en, wiPh 300 pieces of cannon. ln eight or ten years afterwards plip volunteers were 44;arrned—wha ' t was the consequence ?—that, I'm, there were 170,000 troops in the country, and a necessity Or cheep ; while, in 1782, as be had already said, when the peoP ia were united and tranquil, there were not 5,000. At the present moment ,th9K, were thirty thousand troops there , independently of five thnusand police, a force that might, in a great measure, be dispensed with, were t - faninillity re stored, and which might be effected by Catholic palfop. pe had in his possession the copy of a communi cation sent by t.ua ktethority of Mr. Pitt to Lord Fingal and Dr. Troy, requesting 'them to keep the Catholics quiet en the subject until a favourable opportunity, and paw • lies accordingly remained silent in 1801; 180% 1801 1804 4 A7,3,il at last, being abandoned by their friend's of the Union, they weery obliged to appeal to the Opposition) and Mr. Fox, to bring forward th.eie claims before the United Parliament. As to the charge against the Catholic clergy, that they exercised their spiritual influence to affect the iiiieg;ekee of the people, if this was the fact, it was hut the result of the 4.1 condition of the laws against the CatholiCs. Clarendon was an autboe4 the Catholics, notwithstanding the'sUperstitions of their religion, atiiierP4 IShi. , •'Elily to the Crown. If a change had t'aken place in the ,Catholic religion pippe that time, the change was effected by the oppressiVe laws affecting th4On l So long ago as the reign of Charles the .ecOnd, the Irish catholfc.s deelavedr k in an addr ess to the K ing , that they disclaimed and beid abominable ti e d oetr i ce of t h e Po p e having power to communicate Kin gs . I t was *0 'aid that the. Pope oe his spiritual authority t o exc i te t h e Ca thol i cs tq discontent and disturbances against the constitut e d aut h or i t i es; tPt this was contradicted by the fact Ait the ?or hinr3flf sd' framed the Catholic Bishops` oath or allegiance ba King, and that the Catholics had in their Church service was p a r s a n y o e r t b fo y r p t h r a e y r e s a I a t h l n a e n d t b welfare of Catholics h i s AiajestY proved bu th t e l ir t attachment to the state, but by paying onerous taxes until they were unable to pay any more, and the National Debt of Ireland amounted to 150 millions; the country was declared bankrupt, and obliged to take the benefit of the Act. But the Irish did not merely pray fur the King, but they fought too for him. They could point to their cam paigns, their victories, their blood, and their scars, suffered in the defence of England. There was not a great battle since the Revolution in which the Irish did not distinguish themselves, at Ramillies, Fontenoy, Cremona, and other places—well may they exclaim with the Trojan Wanderer— ', Qum regio in terris nostri non plena laboris." In the course of years, from the Revolution of 1688, downwards, the number of Irish soldiers in the service of foreign countries was not less than 450,000. After the French Revolution, the English Government, changing their tbirpe Duke of itziames lan,tooklr F ishmen into, and a n a me--non , theirnaserveicen;among was inter here ticus nominandum—General Count Daniel O'Connell ! ! ! The Hon. Member for Westminster had argued for a Select Committee of Inquiry on the Question : but where was the necessity of such an inquiry ? Had they not, in the evidence taken before Committees of the Lords and Com mons, abundant proofs of the necessity of this measure ? proofs that the Catholic Clergy used their influence to keep down insurrections, and preserve the peace ; and that the Catholic Association tended to effect the same laudable objects. Why then should Hon. Members attack these bodies, and charge them with a contrary conduct? Was it just ?—Was it fair ?—He had the authority of Theohald Wolfe Tone, an Irish Emissary, not of the Catholics, but of the Dissenters, who stated in conversation with Hoche and Carnet, in Paris, that the Irish priests could not be expected to aid in his plans of 'rebellion. If the Catholic Clergy of the present day were opposed to England, what made them so? The oppressive nature of the laws. But what was the ,opinion of Abe most eminent Protestant Clergymen on the Catholic Religion and the Catholic Queition? DOctor . Watson,- of the Univerity of Cam bridge, laid it down in bis . book, that no man should be abridged of his natural rights on account of his religion. The Bishop of Landaff said, there was no other way to put en end to heart-burnings in Ire land, but by the concession of the Catholic Claims. The Bishop of St. Asaph (Horsley), held that there was no thing in the Catholic religion inconsistent with it:o , 34y to the Crown, and the Catholics were as good subjects as others. And the Bishop of Norwich declares, that the Catholic and Protestant had one religion—Christianity; and that without safety to the Catholics, there could be no safety for the Church. What was the declaration of the Hon. Member for Louth against these , venerable authori ties The Hon. Gentleman having alluded to "Vestry abuses in Ireland, denied that the Catholic Clergy used in timidation to compel the peasantry to educate their chil dren in the Catholic religion. The Catholic Clergy were also accused of discouraging marriages between Protestants and Catholics; and of that too they were accused by men who could not forget that those same Catholic Clergy of Ireland were liable one hundred years ago to death, and at this very day might be transported beyond seas for marry ing a Catholic and a Protestant. Ile had felt it his duty to argne thus in support of the question, as he was con vinced there could be no peace in Ireland without it. If Irish Gentlemen did not take a part in it, they exposed themselves to calumny and misrepresentations. This tin-' fortunate question excited asperity of feeling in every house in Ireland, from the cottage to the mansion. The discon tent of Irishmen could not be put down by force, but by conciliation. They are animals of a nature not to be tamed down by harshness, for, if persecuted, they would retreat , to their fastnesses, and issue forth again in the destructive character of Ribbonmen or Orangemen. The opponents of this measure were exposing the country to danger. There were Irishmen daily coming over from America, cool, stubborn, and resolute Republicans, enthusiastic with admiration of Washington's glory and Washington's prin ciples, and indignant at the condition of politics of their enslaved country. If the opponents of this measure would not yield, he warned Ministers that their conduct (for be knew of what stuff these Irish Americans were made) would lead to a separation of the two countries. They had lost many opportunities of adjusting this question—in 1805, in 1809, in ISIS, in Ibl7, in 1919. They had lost another noble opportunity also of giving peace to Ire land ; namely, when his Majesty visited Ireland—=that me morable occasion, the most glorious he ever beheld—he beheld Louis the Eighteenth, on his restoration to the throne of France, the day he entered his metropolis, surroundesi by thousands of armed men, and attended by Kings, and Princes and Generals, and the greatest Ca p - . taro of the age, holding the keys of Paris in his hand—he also beheld when his Majesty George the Fourth landed on the shore of Ireland, the harbinger of peace and concilia- tion, not guarded by a military procession of pomp and form, but surrounded by thousands of unarmed Catholic peasants flocking round their Monarch with hearts full of love and loyalty, and welcoming him to their country with shouts of joy, and triumph, and exultation--a sight that abounded with more of the moral sublime than all the military pageants of victorious armies. That glorious op portunity they had for conciliating Ireland—but they letit go, and they would never get such an opportunity again.--- . This question had the authority of the highest names to support it-Locke, and Burlemaqui, and Dr. Johnson, and Pitt, and Burke, and Fox, and Sheridan, and Whitbread; and Sir S. Roma's?, and Canning. It was ridiculous to suppose that, under existing circumstances the country would remain quiet. He called on . that great assembly to extend justice to all his. Majesty's subjects, and he trusted that, while the British lion continued to guard with one arm the King and the Constitution, it would never stretch forth the other to tear in pieces the charter of Irish liberty. Lord ENNISMORE assured the House he was unwill ing to press himself upon their attention at that stage of a protracted debate; but recollecting that he was amongst ' the representatiVes of the people, and feeling that he him. self represented a large body of his Majesty's subjects, he conceived himself called upon to speak their sentiments and hie own in the face of that Assembly and of the coun try at large, in spite of all minor considerations. When he remembered, however, how many great men had gone be fore him in advocating this measure, and bow many speeches had beer delivered that were irradiate with the purest light of genius, it was as foreign to his wish as it was beyond the scope of his abilities, to attempt to enume rate all the arguments that bad been adduced against laws, which were a disgrace to the 'age in which they lived, which were opposed to the spirit and precepts of religion, and were at utter variance with that justice which nature had implanted in the beaft. He would net follow the Hon. Member for Ripon, in his tour through /mat:play ; he would not allude to the Treaty of Limerick ; or to any other obsolete act, or compact ; but he would take his stand on the grounds of expediency, which was in accordance with the seiedem and spirit of the age. When Hon. Mem bers called on the Legiilatnre to renew the disabilities un der which Tiornan Catholics had laboured, he entreated them to consider what was the degree of advantage prat!, ticelly attendant upon the laws as they then existed. He would ask them if the advantage was not at best disputed and problematical, while the evil was certain and growing ; giving to our Government in Ireland a character of blood, and continually operating as a bar to the permanent happiness of the people, to civilization, and 'national it.aproyernents 7 He believed there were men enjoying targe revenues in the Chorcle who argued against the measure, upon principles something selfish, and who said you must not deprive us of our great emoluments, without considering the situation of the Roman Catho lic Clergy without considering that they were oppressed, and that t h ey would not chose to have them come hetween the wind and their nohility- Tint when he saw individuals dietingiiished for their rank and eminent ' for their piety, forgetful of the great . maxim, ‘, Do unto others as you wopid be siOtie by," he felt it would be in vain for a person so humble as himself to address any 'admenition to them. object Ise) ; eci f u r ti o —o u r i n d or a t, s le k ilgi , ri eolnyh as aefire:o, as inrel promoteas ta n point these laws were waspea peace concerned, and goo f d o r t wille AroPr?gaP mop, while in Ireland religion had been made only the sourcil of hitter bigotry and malicious controversy.--. And he needed not to tell the Heine, that where society was distracted, property must be insecure. Such was the state of Ireland, and such must it ever be, though of course Chequere4 With brighter and happier moments, until these baneful lavvs were repealed. And he would now turn to the English Members, and ask them of what use had been these laws to them. Were they not an ever peinful thorn in their side ?—or would they undertake to say that Eng land was sicher or stronger by their means, or that through them she had enjoyed more safety, honour, of repose. For himself, he did•not think that all the advantages that had been anticipated would flow from Catholic Emancipation, but many certainly would. He thought, too, that they would appear only by a .10F, 3114 progressive step, bot eheir utility wou ld not b e on 'that account the less. One mighty advantage would be, that they would digest of their euthority those indiviuuals who now guide and command all the powee mental and physical of Ireland. He slid not agree with the Hon. Member who had spoken before him in hie opinion respeCting the Catholic AssociatioP. He thought, on the contrary, that there was little hesi tation upon the part of that Assembly to revile the best and noblest, or to attack all that was venerable in their country. He was, therefore, decidedly of opinion that the Catholic Association ought to be suppressed, but not with out avail. It was still possible, that for a brief period they might be successful; but there was a fire in existence . toy eoercive measures— st t a h r e t y up had aga bee in n in al 4 re u a o d o. y .... tr ii.a ied 4ttimaiptsieolhnsia..binrti_tesi that never could be extinguished, excepting by allaying discontent throughout the country; and snaking it obvious to every mind that the only desire and object of the Go vernment was to render equal justice unto all. It might be said that the' Parliament could in its omnipotence crumble this unconstitutional power into pieces, or dash it into atoms, but he begged them to recollect that Par- _ liament was wont to employ its wisdom before it resorted li t e o t t would ttobsue lmdstilldestroyomnipotence.ri s tl the Catholic. They Caa tpliiocel i should neix Association frfrom m i its s consider, o wa as n they might, with t h i u t renovated might.—or like the water-serpent, who, though it has once disappeared under the placid surface of .t .ile weight with the House, st ill he waves, t i o s th y ge e rm t an s t u t r o e .lo accede ins`' may so r, le motion of the Ho n our_ um n ble w agsa able lal i fes n ep o ..B t u h al der He a • ne p evt l ke a c o(b e esu , wit i t o * destroy utFthtralaetn netoi o beggeddelay all Burdett) t hat i vi ' l ' i ma th the le ast While it could yet he granted as a boon, and wait till they were called on by a' more impera tive was entreated by the Roman Ca•• t n h o o t li t c o s, tive necessity. He wished to say one word upon the sub ject of securities, and that was, that if his Majesty's Mi. 1 nisters would bring any measure forward, and say what were the securities they would wish, he, for one, would be most happy to pay all possible attention to their pro position. But, he must at the same time take leave to say, that in his opinion all the securities which could be de sired for good order amongst tho people, the stability of the Constitution, and the welfare of the country were in corporated in that measure then under the consideration of , the House. He was convinced that germs of every ad vantage and improvement were to be found in emancipa tion .to the Roman Catholics, and that were it once passed, the germs would be seen successively sprouting forth under the sunshine of national prosperity. He thanked the House for the attention with which be had been heard. He had simply endeavoured to explain his heartfelt sentiments. He was firmly attached as any man could be to the fabric of our liberties, and u the Esta blished Church, but in the same proposition in which he held these, and the others dear in that proposition, was his anxiety to see those stains which intolerance and in. justice had cast upon them, washed away, and to have Ireland at length rendered an available portion of the empire, by being permitted the enjoyment of civil and religious liberty. GEORGE BANKES said, that the pleasure with which he heard the speeches delivered by the Right Hen. the President of the Board of Trade, and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, was accompanied with pain when he reflected on the consequences they were likely to produce. He feared that as coming from individuals of distinguished talent who were connected with his Majesty's Government, they would lead to expectations upon the subject of the pro posed measure, being more generally entertained than they ever bad been at any former period. The Right Hon. Secretary, for Ireland had declared that this measure was not merely the best, but the only measure for Ireland, and he (Mr. George Bankes) thought that when the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke in these terms of a measure which must have been long under his deliberate consideration ; that the House had a right to expect that he would have been able to tell them not only you should do it, but also how it was to be done. He knew that it was customary for Hon. Gentlemen on such occasions to turn round and say, " Go ask the Government—we only lay down the outline—it is for them to complete the desi g n." But, he thought, that when language so decided had been made use of, that he was justified in expressing his regret that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not thought proper to enter into details. His Right Hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, had spoken of fragments of the Constitu tion ; he wished he had been more explicit upon the sub. ject ; but letting that go by, he would observe that he could not divest his mind of considerable alarm at an illustration which had been made use of by hie Right Honourable Friend. He had said look at the Scottish Members in the House of Commons—do they give any dis turbance to our religious establishments—do they attempt to derange that to which we are so justly and naturally at tached ? Well then, he would ask, what did his Right Hon. Friend propose—that Roman Catholics should be admitted into that House on the same principles as the Scottish Members? The Scotch certainly did not attack the Established Church, because their own exists by the same charter, and because the same laws confirm both.— But was it so with the Roman Catholics, or did the Right Hon. Gentleman mean to propose that the Roman Catho lic Church should be also made a superior Church, and so placed on the same footing with those of Scotland and Eng.. land. He thought, too, the illustration was not fortunate, in other respects.. The Scotch Members might not have acted directly against the public weal; but had they never acted in a body against political measures supposed to be for the public weal. It was not necessary to go very far back for an instance in which a measure of this nature had been resisted, and resisted successfully by them ; and their conduct was pointed out as being the result of such a' Union as never did occur before, and never would Again. He wished to • suggest to the Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) who had brought the question forward, that it would be desirable for the House to hear what means be had to offer of obviating the difficulties arising from the Union with Scotland. The security in Scotland was much stronger than any that could be offered for Ire land, for in Scotland each candidate was compelled to make an oath, in which was embodied a test and declaration si milar to that which were taken at that table. It had been argued that similar securities to those in Russia might be adopted ; but it was to be considered that in that country there was no contribution to the Catholic Church. Among the speeches which were delivered, he had directed his at tention chiefly to those of the /tight Hon. Secretary for Ireland, as well from the respect he entertained for their talent, as from the circumstance of their possessing means of collecting the best and most extensive information. His Hon. Friend the Solicitor-General for Ireland had said how can you, considering circumstances, be worn off them ; you are at present, since you have as it is the repre sentation of the Catholic Priesthood—men chosen by them for their vigour—their activity, their eloquence, and per haps even' their violence—you have, in fact, the influence of the Priests in its most noxious shape." Now he (Mr. Bankes) differed from his Hon. Friend, though he admitted the truth of what he stated, for he could fancy a power much more noxious and more violent than any, that had hitherto appeared in the House. A Noble Lord opposite (Lord F. Gower) had said he would prefer that a certain number of the leading orators of the Catholic Association had the power to vent their malevolence is that House rather than elsewhere. He (Mr. Bankes) thought the Catholic Association was an insult to the Legislature, and ought to be put down ; but if no other means could be devised for doing so, excepting for those of introducing its Mem bers into Parliament, he had rather it continued to exist for ever than that they should be fooled into adopt ing a worse remedy. The orators of that Association had libelled the Duke of York in his dying moments, and a never yet was there so gross a lib el that rema ined unpunish ed. He had beard, with unqu alified pleasure, tbe just tribute of admiration and app lause, whic h had been offered Baronet T with h h imself, i respecttus et, if he did not to another er say that he had re com mentingelfronceved awith sensible regret w h a t had With which this to the Noble Duke at the H ead of th e Government, by the Hun. Gentleman who h ad brou ght the motion forward, , aft g but he would not be io.an sa c.t t e is r. fi ea w it h h lio n . i B e di s tinguished personage used to come to a d ec i s i on i n hi s judicial capacity , expressed his surprise at the ready and r fal ea len t a fr n i u r npoo tb nb a let t h eehlal gravity i d slowness decided way in which he had acted upon a late occasion. But the charge was utterly unfounded. If that Noble and Learned Lord had, after acting on certain public prin ciples for a period of half a century, suddenly turned round and adopted'new ones, then, indeed, there would have been some colour for the accusation so unkindly brought against him by the lion: Baronet. That Noble Lord being no longer in any responsible office, was no !auger Si fit object of attack either in that Assembly, or 'elsewhere. —(fear.)--The feelings he entertained on this subject— feelings which were in no degree changed or altered by that Noble person being or not being in an official situa tion—would, he trusted, excuse his having occupied the attention of the House so long upon this subject. The Hon. Baronet who had opened this debate bad directed thei!• at tention to the qui-Tie offered by the different coun trie s Of Eur Ope and South America. „AO,' ii poa the m to look to what' was 'going on in diff eren t parts ,s pro_ the civilized world. He would adopt the Ho n. Baronet posal. He said, then look to what was d oing in Ital y, i n Spain, and in Portugal.—(Laughter and hear.)—Could the House forget what had passed in the country he had last mentioned since the last discussion they had had upon that subject? jfthey looked to the much boasted libera lity of the New World, with its Constitutions, was the picture offered them o f a brighter bue ? Look at Mexico, for example, with its Constitution. Its Constitution was lauded as that of the Liberal Cortes ; butt what was the Constitution of the Liberal Cortes? It was a C onstitution, one of the fundamental articles of which was, not to admit within the limits of their empire or authority, the exercise of any other religion but their own.—(Cheers.) —ln other parts of South America ; it Wa' true, they had had charters GE of concession and liberty of conscience , in faVollt 01 , t h e friends the English ; but those charters were burnt f to hands of the common hangman. —(Hear. )—Withreir' France, it was said that the bigotry swltich once 'or 'would rove ; like it"- guished her was no more, and a Noble Lord, wt. ;4 pi dressed the House from the opposite side; ha." ~.tr a ti sasis tat when Jesuitism had arisen it was dest- "". we" - I hs,a A laugh)-sswl , ' - 4 1 40' the avenging God like a venomous ser "l ed b h u Y t th h e e Banker) was afraid that it headserpe ‘ n v t as th p e u y sh h pd ad d h a e tr ar n d nin s —o ( ne ?keg (Laughter.)—lt Was of little cones .ese in anote:ars he had an arrow in his vitals es ~quence to him sty referred to the domino-- snot.—(Laughter.)-=PLd on the other aids ..cs to which his Rt. Hon. t , ~,e l f that the 10 ' nad allud e d, an d h a d satisfied nit thls „sin pursued by Prussia could in no degetor country, unless they were prepared to go the : n( 4 length of the Hon. Baronet's proposal, nam e ly, to no securities as trifles, as baubles fit only to amuse eb,''S e S and be the ridicule of men. If they wer e th us to the example of Prussia to the extreme, he was readYl o 4 mit there would be s o me c h an ce of cal m i ng th e 4 1 spirits of . Ireland. But unless they were prepared !el; coed as the Government of Prussia had done, to agree, r e those of a r e li g i on o pp ose d t o th e i r own —t o th ose 01 el ligion which hated theirs—that they should pay nothil i al Pathe maintenanc e o f th e E s t a bli s h e d Ch urc h, (f or , /I the Protestant Church was really the great grieveele which they complained)—unless they were ezeused ":0 the payment of tithes—whatever concessions" migtO made to them—whatever privileges accorded—there SI be no tranquillity. With respect to the privileges 00 , to in th e t re aty which h a d b een ment i one d, t h e reasooll no mention was particularly made in it of ParliMe7,j, privileges was, that at that time, and in all times Pre . r. it t the Roman Catholics had enjoyed those privileg i manner which made it impossible that any stipe' should have been made for them. Let the.Housee consider in what way it was they held their sots is liament. This point was material in two respects :•••••• 11 0 of all, as respected that particular treaty to which be 0 , alluded; and secondly, it was material, because it we' .. l doubted, that if Ireland hadbeen governed by.a Parline composed of Irish Papists, unrestricted by any- ostbfe ire guments might be founded upon the Government ;la land at that period, which might now be applied Woe present question. But let th e House l oo k t o the fo l tory of the Parliament in Ireland, and they wouleUi facts utterly inconsistent with the proposition so 10 150 laid down by the Hon. Member for Dublin. Cat",., t s might sit in the Irish Parliament in the reign of Elixir., but she, aware of the difficulties that would arise frens'lo, testants and Catholics sitting together in the same 1 1 °, the latter unrestrained, in order to provide against to;i i directed writs to be issued to such counties only that t ,l thought likely to return Protestant Members. Thus Il e ' twenty counties only ten sent Members to Parliament re ing her reign. That was the state of the Catholics With ty spect to their privilege of sitting in Parliament during reign of Queen Elizabeth. On the accession of Jamey 4) First to the Throne, the same principle was mainte7 o that had been acted upon i n th e r ei gn of Elizabeth. It b p; true he issued w r it s t o an a dditi ona l num b er o f placeet .s d those were places where he was assured of the sentiee'o of 'those who were to return the Member. It wasise t i the reign of Charles the First, that that principle We It manner given up. Then, in the year 1634, the Pronest) tants and Catholics in the Irish Parliament were nest)equal in numbers, and they would find in a letter of o Strafford's, preserved to our times, that there was cisely that state of things in Ireland which might have le e i expected from such an arrangement. The noble write the letter stated, that in discussions and divisions, no Protestants were all on one side, and the Catholics Jo the other. Lord St ra ff or d a t th e same ti me s tated, ' oe , this arose from n o ill f ee li ng on t h e par t o f th e Cath , t , toward,' the Government, or from a wish to embarrao fot proceeding, but that they adopted this course merelY the sake of showing th e i r p ower , an d f orm i ng fort h e I s selves that predominant i n t eres t w hi c h s h ou ld e nable ti c t o , to regulate the supplies that should be granted tbe, i i i vernment. It had been said upon the strength 0, ye, that the Catholics were as faithful as subjects co rd oa f and that if they were now treated in the same manner , be would be equally faithful. That might be true, ita, would even grant that many of them supported the 0 0 0 rests of the Established Church ' • but when the K s t e then accused of resembling the religion then called leoPf:it came to consider how nearly the Established Church s , the merit claimed for the Catholics on that account, s suffer some degree of diminution. It was not, how e his desire now, or on any occasion, to diminish from" high or pleasurable feelings the descendants at . the SP Catholics of that day must have, and which had bid eloquently described to them, in thioking, of the cat 0 f their ancestors. He concurred in the praise that..„'" been bestowed on them by the Hon. Baronet. He r_ fectly agreed in what had been stated, that throughout n whole history jealousy existed on the part of the Catbei with respect to the a uth or ity o f th e P o p e , b ut h e thout o the Hon. Member for Knaresborough had not treated Noble and Learned Friend fairly in his allusion to statement made by him. His Learned Friend he und! h stood to mean, when he had alluded to the struggles wh; took place bet Ween our RoMan Catholic ancestry 104 , e Pope, that in spite of their opposition of his powers 6 'o tinual innovations were made by him. It was the feat d his power and encroachments that procured the patel l a the statute of premunire, a statute which made tber.'' t that passed it so odious to the Pope, that he gave his 11- r , dom over to another. At the same time that be o i ly tamed the opinions he had thus expressed, he b,_se„ s e utmost respect for those from whom he differed in ret: o l points, as also for those who now urged their claims, c l a d which were now urged more strongly than ever they 101 l been before. This was the reason, perhaps, why, b e t y felt himself called upon to speak more strongly CP O °. la question, than he otherwise should have done; b e trusted that in speaking thus strongly, he should a"`. construed as meaning any disrespect towards any P e lla whatever, but least of all towards his fellow-subjeet''' English Catholics._( Hear, hear.) vit ° Mr. J. T. DENISON said, the Hen. Gentlemall c a thos o had just addressed the House had asked how Emancipation was to be carried into execution ? W fni tr , be carried into execution by going into the proposed „,s ' ear, w h a e s ar.) mittee.—(Hear, hear.)-110 admitted that there seas,,.:o( great disinclination to the concession of the esu" sas Claims in many parts of England, but -imperious ne`l o l city had forced them on the consideration of men, an d t • o e gradually wearing the disincliast' 011RTH—I was anxious, Sir, to have s poke° i°l to the Hon. Member for Code Cs iiti ; for few speeches I have ever heard have given ate v3 . 4) he l I real satisfaction than that pronounced this night by '. o s ma considera tion weAad fryi a.e Nly(in repl y Hon. Member, differing as I do altogether in the sone, l lo to which h e h as come . Si r , I h a il th e course whic h Hon. Member has taken in that speech, and feel haPP,?`„, the progr es s h e ma d e i n th e li ne o f argumen t he to nip I rejoice ; for he endeavoured, and seemed conteate", . obtain a triumph—over what?—Over a parallel-sav o r comparison, an allusion. He quarrelled, net with to talent*, but with similes. He thought it not beneath b p to deal with metaphors—he disdained not to devote_.o strength to the overthrow of an illustration, and his rri t os to the condemnation of an allusion. Me did not tre' ser to grapple with one single argument on which the tion will have to be ultimately decided.—(Hear, beaf') Does that Hon. and Learned Msmber; when he asks are ready to point out the manner in which we are t e t io rive at Catholic Emancipation--does he imagine the "1 puts the question really before the House? In Po is/ form, and appearance, the question is, whether o f s h a ll emanc ip a t e our Catholic fellow-countrylflel las e not ?—bnt, in reality , the practical question We a at to decide is, whether we are to tranquillise Itelsn sot? When the Hon. Member asks me whether I s aci ready to point out the manner in which Catholic Sn' of pation is to be effected , I ask him, in return, is be reisi, to point out the manner in which Ireland is to be ! :s ed quillised ?—(Hear, hear. )—What scheme has he icas,,7 o should schem e prepared—for the House in its I" - ye should go on from year to ear as we have 'tithed ( ' q t , on —(itear)— I and his plan are, th at and Session after Session, but, never decide—(Chee re na i to what adopt ban m h t a b. s ly: h t e whies that we should continue to strive with a balanced , 0 ; de a liberate night after at., vernment and a balanced Legislature, every mats 1 194 14 back and rendering the national wisdom neptlak any r o la give on a subject, and in a conjanctere, in ivtich it s _, P i ° be displayed in the most striking manner, and 11 " ;is pest resources brought forward with the most energ e m decision. Sir, we must not concral from ourselves question is not here either of the Treaty of LiWe r :io or what took place at the Union, or of any even' history which bay been referred to,—but that its ii what is the actual state of things ?—(Hear.) itz a ' %he actual state of things that is pressing upon us, forcing us to a decision, if indeed we are to yield to s ati eurnstances at all. I rejoice that the questions raised t e e the Treaty of Limerick and upon the Union have Pile/ entirely put out of this debate.—l am sorry thae bess a were ever introduced i n t o i t , an d regret t e d when feet the Hon. Baronet who brought forward this motiollso, so much of his argument upon these two points. d e. pose I was to yi e ld t o th e argumen t s o f the Right o:ajj, Secretary, that the Treaty of Limerick is of no r 11tp that no right can be claimed upon it—that I furthe r re Cr persuaded that at the tim e o f th e Union no pledgesr • a s /Ls 'eauads on w 1 ?rpm wider us ; • foritizt nseasu Hon. Member to have !about be disposed to It is that 'of conferring of 1 Gracioo God us not lahoti7 sad contract t firoW up beyon ow e its eiisten, 48.-- -(Cheers.) their industry, *sir unani mit) ire to deal wi , and regulate, h' to destroy.—(( areltber alarms twenty highly ciPled Catholic not alarmed u t he lowest of tl the Executive (Cheers.) H' btiag cot.trol lr tasks it our frie t 0 dread—it i s 4 itn not mistake 4 Yinptom not the the disease is tit %eked, and the ea pored with it yi '." it will soon he %one, Session foster beyo n d 41 1 trace the anti the steps 01 ti, an Irish "Mott when th ittQudly held the Potrer ; but wh are they now, I Ziaost active, the confederation to but the other 4. literfered not i. rights of their tl settled themselv "-What, Sir, i d;cl not theirse , c their arsesal thought it possil this was dr. ward in the con in its first trial, Perin:tent to try of th e Prote‘a `. 4 1, estates, all] With the dust, holders to trim . "1 mighty en 4 Y how far its t holic s themselv, the power they iharp.sighted Sep with this I d egree its force, Without concilia meteor of time "jtise.—(Cheer, But, Si r , t h e I ifiing, scarcely 114 . House, if t t4 tice ss i on s have it eat body of tl this, but ce Well-regulate dt s.s their 1 Pr incipally coot' "tending to th tl e3 follow the I 1° his odes---ax 42 14.1 class e s of s , tieal fanners ‘ llL lizissa is poli cebeersi)—N° . (114 'e state of th It d oes n ot of i oilfusion, but b t 0 them that we 44 0, Session af : 111 1 bear with 'l'll Sir, I shoe Nations; and 1, 14 c , 4 * upon whi i a this debat ) 4 . , the questioi Gentlema `itholi c Cl ergy, t L re llizad : t.7lsti.ses—(Che( - "Y Protestant fe :1,: (concurrent }! o c t i expect ic b f e le h i ine re i . l ' il dinlprove the L 7ti a l to the mai t -th tim e th at w : i t'e their Willi! "XI works. barrier wh ctestant and t }. tgat extending the other. I n ° l ;terv a si ons pro; tha see; a t li s e we re ed Indulgenc e aa e nno o : m . i m i • soy such aml speech whit 6 Pa Hon. the Bch I will 1 ;1 11 111.ns and i 4 t lain these wz Y duty, us ai 'tare resided in Z A Lled the to a !le Wishes ar ~4 14 j 1 ect—t o sub' eiculars in re 444 • without bei Zes'on a l feelings t :ohgerv e upon ,kiber f or 11 }match I find it said, that th Ith• 'en the cones ,Lthe Roman e is my c 1 / 4 7: 7 1 : 'l‘ :4-Ytl ;l ure Mt tl, tl tratl'vtP: veh::t°l°larniffilutooeiiflttnrPiroilni:tat f at as a mea,n. t. rtie at grad ere ' but a perm q l / 4t ke and error ruth t o t 'h such a ci t , * horn it has oacebeen so ear Puraceit 1 e 1 : Nn e v * r a ga. ji v e; c p e o , leas ,?0 : 11 ,(1.1 11 41 itlestion to ow e ( sk 'good God, to 1 144 11 h, and th e considero Pr 4 i l oPport Ih ti ! 4 of the R %Professionl izi n t t i?ti at once thti r : si irraa) w hy t e d the feon i Y meal that ir ireiatv arliatn P rot s g ta frona ti Was o t , 14 ' all did cured, if ht,