The Sun. — London, England, 1819-05-19 00:00:00

1:. t i :;; • " his part, Rhoold, 'Lava tire satisfaction of T, who were the real friends of their country. 'lei motion at all events would have a tendency . ( ! ). ,,, ° ,""d• Though for himself he was not (-(:11-``' fur avour any wild impracticable visionary ` v ,telue of Reform like some of those projects I"ich had be en sug.rested out of doors, he did ;J o u; ittean to oppose himself to every plan of re- Ili ', He thought it absolutely necessary that `.'l ,",'"lting should be done to put the country in ; '. : 11 a '''ate that she might look Europe in the t 'Le ' "d it Ought now to be our policy to se ,'" the blessings of a lout: peace, by proving ' l l the world that we are at atty time prepared °l. w ar. He thanked the Ho+lse for the indol y..,q)ce ,"h which they had listened to hitn, and '.;),e solve telt u l e d b y moving— " That the House should itielt into a C omm i ttee on t h e S ta t e of the ation ~ CASTLEREAGH, thoneh he was not against "",„" n te of th e principles which the Hoc. Gentle .'" had laid down in his speech, was prepared to contend' that whatever had been otir plitt ( 1 t.ne,:inlefey,ectarrst.Liewpolicy of I t'th e the Country, or a nom hatever the difficulties of conduct financial department of an empire like this,able "Jell credit was due to his Right Honour 4fthe He would put it to the generosity R l-10 u. Gentleman, and the feelings Of 11 , I : se, if th,-• history of the Country furnish ed_ an- '3Sta nCe of g reater exert i ons b e i ng made by Y Chancellor of the Exchequer than had been %lad e by his Right Ho n. Frieud ar, hear ! since !he termi -1"" of the War.-0-l e and laughter. r ) tieel n i h e : " might s c off at t h at asse rtion e wool te .( He would c all u pon the House to I, ' - et attention to to their att • '-e s i tuat i on in which lie ttlte Ch ancellor of the Exchequer) had found the ores of the country when he was first called to kidmini si ration after that great calamity, the i ll -411 6 i of Perceval. Lookint! at the situation was Illev then were. exhausteo as the country Gls' a king war. and contemplat'ing the events, •eu had sttse taen place, he seas sure it would ta t se e n th at the period of which lie spoke t eeil " e "f great financial exertion. He and his t a l h ' i gtles were responsibl‘.. for the course ssiiiclt tl;,:een pursu e d b y t h e Ch ance ll or o f the Ex t'leue a resp oils ibili t y front which they were a h t all disp ose d to shrink. They felt that they tot t nt s.°lln d by. their duty to the people of this .i r yto look i ts diffi cu l t i es f a i r ly in the face ; t ne gh' in doi ng s o, he hoped they woul d th e et wi th more vvigorous and steady suppni t than non. Gentleman was likely afford. :IL: 1 - 1 Ito" compl a i n of the conduct of the Right nurab le Gentleman. though certainly he had . ' I ll I tt '111".i torte 0' candour, and an air of plan t taati:e'th'lt so far misled some Members as to •to "tent suppose that his whole hi o_ject those ill t -`4la l'eti the attention of the House to ti: e ' "lint questions nn the discussion of which 1 14 t we re a very few days to enter. , 1- bee q 10r1. G e ;i t i man might think thery had st "lte essary delay, but if he thought_ nufit 'tor their ,places, and that the aerr a -Regent m i g ht pos s ess himself of b e tter Witv l l t ' why had he slept.on his post so long , )n,," ‘14, 1 ', " ( I he not roused himself sooner ? I 1) 03 - t 1 " 1 he have suffered the House to sleep on its th o' : il l they wer e on t h e ver y e ve of entering on i n . 11 t - lII ' , \ gre a t que stions —the Affairs of the Ity the State of the Finances of the Coon dttl `vliY, a f ter t h e course ' t h a t l ie had taken, tio n .ie "ow disturb the Rouse, by raising' a Tie" tt dr, ) "tn " to wh et h er t h e coun try b a d an Adnus tatul.caPali of entering on these two impo.r -e4ll.4"estum t s which were about to undergo Ili tx , 11 : 1 • Could th e House believe, after what • 11 Pr' i "(I witnessed, •that the present motion h bat i ng trout any t hi ng b u t p a rty tact.cs, and ad ghthrnituiit forward till now, because the "• G:ntletnan knew it could nor have zit -stalued had he ventured to make it before. 14,10 wou ld not suffer himself by any taunt that ttlac e , en tilt() wn . out to be dragged into the &s -kit 19i " of those gr ea t questions which' were itiretinw before . the House, but be could as- Ilie s „ I ", Right Honourable Gentleman that on tip - 1 . 1 ' l luisters would be ready to meet their 11 0 1) ii ° -e " l s at their proper time. 'Flee Right Ho th,l'ahle Gentleman complained drat the te p 4 a lle ellor o f t h e E xc h equer did not propose to l'io a l , ae his Budget from his general view of the penances of the country. On this subject he tor' s ': (l ,'() reserve himself till a fitter time arrived Il ik e h Maini ng tie principles on which his Royal atgre - : e l s s the Prince Regent's Ministers had acted tailed in their attempt to prevail on the at tlt to bear for some time longer the burdens P r° w ar, and were compelled to give up the ,th e ` ii eri Y T„. Will another question came before lie~hie should reserve those explanations. t hat l i‘j; e had to offer, and which NviJuld prove tl ßey C ni 'te‘ts could only with propriety act as .that Nl ad c d "o• This, however, he might say, ""r' list erct having been defeated, had no re ') e e t to come to Parliament and call upon tr y.14 4 1 e . , to look into the Finances of the Coon " w a , --4 ""g probed the subject to the bottom, Ail ey "Iv tor th e H ouse t o determine whether •th e cw'uld Cottle to a decision now, or hang up 14 4 () er 11l for a y ear , as t h e C at holicQuestion 1/1 ,rintetheen h ultg up. They were to determine ~d t he (present ,policy of the cc ountry ,C ; ,; 01,1 ,,ue d eparted from, or whether England tt'ltielt sill enjoy that character in Europe gthich B he hall hitherto proudly sustained, and koul--was confident, the energies of Britons 4'1111:1111110.nt of eve r be ready to u ph o ld. N o w, having consideration swat in truth could have :11 4 , 4i ll ' i g to do with the question of to-night, the th e 4 ePort, and the state of the Finances of I khe t -- „mrY, it Was for the House to consider, t q „, - .Cr or trot they ought to agree to go into a I ti : h oitt ee on the State of the Nation. The ,4 1ti h t , it o ° ll . Gentleman had said the Bank Com -I,e; e e . Report could be discussed in a Commit -9" the State of the Nation better than ,ti,,,Yo_wlyere else. H e, h owever, was o f °pi ll°, , th at l iAi • usable the moti on o f w hi c h his Right for Friend -(Mr. P ee l) h a d given notice 1O .4 • "day would f urn i s h qu i te as c onvenient -! nel a, its discussio n as cou ld b e o bt a ined in • *h c o l tithe sw ay. It was now too l ate to consider Dab ie e r the Country had an AdMinistration :f entering up.on that important question. 11 4 B °FrY _that any Gentlnan possessed of , ` t uts Which belonged to o the Right 11013, Gentleman should fed such indifference about office as he did. For himself, however, he woni4i say, that he was not so desirous of office as to be content to remain in it one moment longer than while he enjoyed the confidence of his Sovereign, and possessed, iu common with his colleagues, the confidence of that' House. Instead of making a motion like the present, he thought it would be fairer to try Ministers in the course of the mea sures they had adopted. Lie a;.-tree'd with the Iti , ght Hon. Gentleman that it would not be xvell to lull the Country into a belief that it was in such a state that no possible danger - or difficulty conk' arise. H. , the contrary, would maintain with the Right lion. Gentleman, that the only way in which peace could be maintained—peace without subjection and disgrace, was to be al• ways ready to resent insults and injuries,nif in sults and injuries should be offered. But while he stated this he felt justified in adding, that he did not know that at any period of our history the foreign connexions of this country had been more satisfactory than at present, and the nation might flatter itself that it l►ad before it as fair a prospect of pence as it had_ever enjoyed. He would never be silent when taunts' were thrown out like those which had been directed aßainst hose engage ments which had been `entered into by certain (To vernments on the Continent. He denied thgt the object of these had been to degrade, to oppress, or in any way to overlay other powers who were not parties - to the arrangement which had been made. The only object was to preserve that state of things which they had established by their glorious exertions in the most arduous anti eventful stroggie recorded in the annals of • the world. It from tie past being •deeply engraven on their memories in a period of peace, they had endeavoured to guard against a recorrence'of the calamities of war, and had clothed their trea ties in language of a moral and Christian lictracter, in his conscience be believed it was b ecause suc h were their sentiments, and he, therefofe, spurned his taunts as wholly inappli cable. It b a d be t a s insinuated that the object in view was to diminish the power of France. He denied that this country wished or. ever had wished to lower France in a legitimate sense. This country, as well as the four great Powers most intimately connected with her, wished France to fill that large space in Fairope .whiel, le gitimately belonged to her. It was - agtasz Re volutionary France that this country had contend ed through that vast period, during which, front circtimsiances, it was iwpossible to gain one Ally on the Cootinent of Europe; and it was against Revolutionary France that we bad still fought, till assisted by other nations,. who, at length, roused to a sense of their danger, had made com mon cause with us, we succeeded iu ovarthrowing the monster. Against France, should France continue to pursue the career of peace, his-Coun try and its Allies would know no animosity, and would desire no greater trio i mph than to see her prosperOus andhappy, It was said this country had not matte use of the power which it possessed to smite those:comMercial advantages which it ought to have been the object of Ministers to gain. Me wools! not now enter upon this sub ject, but at the proper time he should be prepared to show that the' commercial interests of the country had not .been neglected ; he Would show that at-no period of our history had this country carried on so great a commerce by one-third as site had, carried on during the last four years ; and that the two last years were the greatest commercial years that had ever been 'known. .—(Hear, hear !)--Happily for this country, she had little need of Commercial Treaties ; had such Treaties been matte, he thought they would rafter have confined than extended our trade, which now knocked at every door, and found its way into every port ;—a trade which might be said to be independent of all the world, anti only governed by laws of its own. Had Ministers taken that course with respect to it which had been recom mended to them, he thought such a line of policy would have been equally fatal to the commerce anti character of the country. It would have been most injurious to our best interests had this country taken the contemptible mode of winding up tier concerns in the bowels of the countries with which she was connected. If, for instance, when we were in the heart of Spain 'and Portu gal, we had been occupied in seeking bargains, and exacting from those we went to assist what they would have regarded as sacrifices, he was sure this country would have come contempti bly out of such negociations, arid its resources would, instead of being benefited, have been im paired. Against acting on such a principle he most enter his strong protest. He was surprised at the want of information which the Right Ho nourable Gentleman had displayed when speaking on the 'subject of the Commercial Treaty with America, and the arrangement made With respect to the trade of Newfoundland. The latter had nothing to do with the former. It was one of the topics which the Treaty of Ghent had left open for future discussion. If a Commercial Treaty were desirable with any country its the world, it was with America. The relations es tablished with that country were of the utmost importance to our trade. When he stated that our commerce with America at present amounted to no less titan 11 or 12,000,0001. per annum, he thought it was not necessary that he should say any more than this, that there was no part of that treaty which might be objected to, on which he was not ready to join issue with the Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends. The state of the Bank and the' finances of the country being put aside, he could S 6 no reason for going into a Committee, on the state of the nation, merely to inquire into the expediency of calling for a change of Ministers. As. the end of the Session was ap proaching, and the 1-louse • had no time to throw away, lie thought it would be better to take a shorter and more compendious way of disposing of them. • The acts of the Government were not so far dead and gone as to make it necessary for the House to go into the records of the events of the last years in order to decide on their merits. The Right Hon. Gentleman had preferred his charges too generally on the subject of the course taken by Ministers respecting their conduct as to the Scotcla Burghs, the Poor Laws, and other topics, that it was a little difficult for them to seize on any pint to . defend themselves. The: Right Honourable Gentleman said the Government ,tcted oti no principle, bnt merely adopted their rnea:;nres front clay to thy. ‘I'' 1 " 1(1 the Right honourable Gentleman allow biw to isk--he did not wean to do it invidionsly7what had been his own principle of action sliwild be sorry, when a change took place in the Go vernment, if the Itight lion. Gentleman were not to take the lead in the new Administration, as he vas not one of the least stars L7l that side of tile !loose. 'With this teelitlg, anti desirilig to know what was likely to be the character of the new Admioist ration, he wished to atli of th,2 night Hon. Gentleman to what part of his life he would refer thew to ascertain what had been tale, he m eant his political principle, of action. He believed it would be found . that he had on every ccev,ion been labouring to bring the debate of the evening' to a close by dexterity of managetnent. It driven to it, he should he inclined to say—but perhaps he might not be a eauTlid and impartial judge—that ti,e only princifle on which the Right lion. Gent. and his friends had acted, was that of pt*.rgevering efforts to thw-Art die Government of tli.• Country, while struggling with unprecedented difficulties, and endeavouring to stern that torrent of desoru,tion which threatened to overwhelm the country. He mitzht safely leave it to the country to deCide on which side of the House most English principle and public spirit had been found. He denied that any indifference to the internal state of the Country had been manifested since the re turn of peace-. ,Every subject bad been brought under consideration. The Finances—the Poor LAws• — the Charities of the Country—the Bank— the Currency—and the Criminal Code, had been successively the subjects of most anxious inquiry and deliberation. Surely then it could not be niain tallied that Ministers had been indifferent to the internal state of the country. Iu bringing forward the present motion, it appeared to him that the Right 1-104. Gentleman was only ani mated by the wish of having -a sort of grand field day, in order to make "iris troops parade before the public.—(A laugh.)—The Right lion. Gen tleman was aware that On another question now on the eve of coming under discussion, there would he some defectiOns, some rebels against his authority ; he therefore wished to bring for Ward some proposition which should unite • all his forces, however opposed to each other in various instances. Such a Mahratta confederacy had perhaps never been seen in that House.—(A laugh.)—A better description, however, could hardly be given the force on the opposite side of the House that: that which had lately been given of the Pindarries. They w , s . :*e in a most ex traordinary state of political contusion--they no longer had one leader,- bat as many leaders as there were Gentlemen of talent among thrm.— Now all was order—every one was in his place — all with '' eyes front" looked to the Right Hon. Gentleman. for instructions ready to obey the word of command.—(Langhter.)—Boond on this occasion to acknowledge the infallibility of - their political Pope, they took their places at titre 'o'clock, and hardly left then) to obtain natural refreshment. All this might prove the Right Hon. Gentleman a famous leader, since he bad been able thus to establish passive obedience in the Whig Artny.—( A laugh.)—Those, however, whom he (Lord • Castlereagh) had to address, though some additions had been made on a late Occasion to their numbers, were in the train the same troops who had before drove the opposite party out of the ftaild, and salved their country : he would not believe' that'they had changed their principles he believed that they loved the prin ciples they formerly possessed es well as they ever did, but like many a victoriods army, nursed in the lap of victory, they had perhaps become rather indolent .—(lncessant laughter.)—Bnt he believed them ready to take a hint from the Rt. Hon. Gent. and he should be equally disappointed and stir prised if they did not show him that night, that all his dexterity would not suffice to indtiee men in this country to substitute one set of pi inciples for another. He claimed of them for the Govern ment, and for themselves, that they would not suffer the tactics ill the Right Hon. Gentleman to prevail. T he late divisions of which he had spo ken had not discouraged him. Though in favour of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could see very few indeed with him but his old friends. If the friends of the Government had changed their way of thinking, he hoped they would speak ou t ; a n d if they had a disposition to overthrow the present Administration, let them do it like men.—(blear!) If they disliked the principles on which it acted, let them state their objections, but not doing this, he trusted they would not suffer themselves to be over-run by superior activity. He conclud ed by strongly calling on the House to decide this night whether Ministers or their opponents were best entitled to their coat - Hence and that of the Country.—(Very loud and long-continued cheer ing.) Mr. W. LAMB entered into a view of the finan cial measures of :he last three years, in order to show that little exertion had beets made on the part of Ministers to relieve the country. Though disposed to vote against the Administration col lectively, he most 'warmly panegyrised the indivi dual integrity and great talents of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), of the President of the Board of Controul, - and of others of his Majesty's 'Ministers. Whichever way we looked, the most prominent feature in the political aspect of the country was the unpopularity of the Government. What was the re - aim) why no great measure could be intro duced by the Goverment into the House without a previous Committee to inquire into it, but merely that the Government had not weight . enough, and knew the House had not confidence in them, to give any reasonable chance of their carrying through any important measure without resorting to such means. By this system of de volving all the great duties of the Government on Committees of the House of Commons, a most . serious _attack was made upon the Constitution. All the vigour, all time energy, all the resposibi lity, of Government was gone. In truth the pre sent Administration was discordant and ill united. The Noble Lord said, that on time Opposition side of the Pause all were Well disciplined and %veil united. Would that he could - see sonic of that regular discipline and union thus attributed to the other side of the House prevail among the Mi nistry. Instead of that," there was DO union; no regularity among them. Thiniting thus, be found it his duty to give the motion his iteartromport. LordCersrost spoke i n ,favour of the motion. He entered into some financial statement's. but these, with the other narts of his 'speech, were wholly Mandible. • Mr. MARTIN' (of Galwayrotaid, the Hon. Gen tlemen on the other side ought to step forward into the arena and meet the Noble Lord,— (Laughter.)—The .Gentlemen on the other side were no doubt candidates for offiee. But as it W as contended there should be a new Administration, he now called upon those who supported this 'no tion. to give a list of the new Admini•tration whores they would have, and then the House teould he able fairly to judge. But if •the Hon. Gentismen opposite were as patriotic as they pro fessed to be (and as they liossihiv were), they ought to come for Ward and t-.uppert those !mot soles which were for the good of the Coun't'y, or propose those which they thought, were caleiihot d for that purpose. But it was too touch for than to have a nostrum which they wool,' not pro duce, unless they were rewarded with - (Laughter.) Mr. W. I,Vviete thought this a question that could not be agitated io the present cii•cionstances of the country. But he though! it ba(l been more argued with reference to the object of promising a change in the Administration, than to the great objects which it involved. A question of this kind by no means involve',' the fate of the Ministry. During, the Administration of Lord North t wo se veral Committees had been appointed to consider the state of the nation, without deciding any thing as to a change of Ministry, or aff ec t-log their stability. Almost any ques7ion, even lie most trifling, might however he made decisive of the Fate of a Ministry. It was well known that it was in the debate and decision oit the case of the Chippenhatii Election that the Ministry of Sir R. Walpole had lost their p 1 ices. Wnh a view then to the several subjects which had been mentioned in this debate—the Finances, the Poor Laws, and the others, be expressed his opinion decided ly that they would be better discussed separately than hi one Committee. .0n - the whole he op posed the motion. • Lord Joule RusseLL said, that what the Noble Lord had said of the object of the late. war not being to lower France, was ill some degree new to him.. The Noble Lord said, that the ohjeto of the war was merely to crush revolutionary France ; but it this was the case it was rather strange that all those acti denouhced by Mr. Burke had been now more firmly than ever established in France As to the internal affairs of the country, one of the most important _objects of consideration was the Poor Laws. The poor were now falling into a state of, villauage more degrading • than that which had subsisted centuries ago. Yet the Govern ment had not brought forward, or assisted, in any measure to check the e.vilS of the alarming sys em which had grown to such a height. If the object •of his own friends (the Opposition) was power, they already possessed i s —tittl power of the most gratifyii,g kind, For instance, what could be more gratifying to - his Noble Ftiend (Lord A. flemilton), in his motioo relative to the Scotch Burghs. than • to induce the Home -en agree to it against the arguments of the Ministry. On the whole, he gave the motion his hearty support. Mr-SINCLAIR said, that the , Gendemeo on the other side of the. House (the Opposition.) chimed a monopoly of public virtue. Bit it was unfair and ungenerous to decry all the measures of the Government solely because they originated with their rivals in place. Sir F. BURDETT said, the subject now under discussion was so vast in, its extent that the eye conk' hardly take in the whole prospect, and the judgment scarcely select the most important ob jects. In this situation he sho u ld h e i nc li ne d to address the House in the words which a Roman Emperor addressed to the Senate—" Quori scri bal)" rob's, Patres Conscript', vet (pod non scribam," &c.----But if-the subject tia be discussed was, whe ther the present Ministry should continue in of fice, or be succeeded by those Hon. Gentlemen who acknowledged as their Leader the Right Honourable Gentleman whose motion was before the House, he could only say, that it was a mat ter on which be felt very little anxiety. When the Noble Lord talked ironically of the discipline in troduced on his (Sir F. Bordett's) side of the House, he gave uo bad lesson to his own troops, who might well be called the Household troops, or still more appropriate, the Swiss troops. It would always -be - found that these Swiss trooas • were very true to their colours„,and that by this st ed fastness they repelled all the attacks of the vo lunteers who opposed them.. As to _lreland, he contended that it was a country which had been much abused, and much tnismanaged. 'file Irish had erroneously been called a savage people, whereas lie hart found them the most kind, the most hospitable, and lie verily believed the most civilized country on the face of the earth, not even excepting. France. As to Scotland, an allusion bad been made towards effecting a re form in a very itrtportant part of the political system of that, country. This • success hail been hailed as a most favourable omen. For his own part he was willing to receive it as such—occipio• omen, felixfaustunique sit. But he feared it would turn out that the result of the Committee which had been apnointed would not he so favourable to the cause of reform as seemed to be expected. As to tile Poor Laws and the Bank, he slid not expect that any thing effectual was likely to be done ; though as to the latter he thought that cash payments might be safely resumed, and that the country would note suffer fiann a diminished circulation. Alderman HEYGATE spoke very shortly in favour of the motion., Mr. DICKENON . said,, be thought the object of the 1110tiOil was to Cast a censnt:e on the present Ministry,,and that such censure was deserved, for tlAcy had not been able to ,carry oA the public business with'comfort to the Hok.se or with I acvan tage to the country. There wps only one way by which the affairs of the country could be retrieved, and that was by appointing a vie and efficient- Administration. He called upon the House to recollect, that it was a deficient revenue—a fal lacious currency—and a weok Administration, which bad occasioned the FielaCkl I * Ni ),