The Sun. — London, England, 1819-05-08 00:00:00

PARLI A ME NT. HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 7. , The oaths were administere►l to Lord HOWARD of Effingham, and Lord MoNTFoRT.. Sou►e Private Bills were brnt►gbt up from the House of Commons by Mr. Lygon, Sir Edward Kiouchboll, Mr. Wodebouse, Sir James Graham, and.otherMeinbers,, and read a first time. PetiHons were pre►entetl against..the Roman ,Catholic Cl,Oms by the Earl of . Westinorland, front the Members of the Trades House of Glas gow.; and by the Earl of Shaftesbury,. from Be verley.-,—Orticred to lie upon the table. The Claims on France Bill was read a third time. and, passe►l. POSTPONEMENT OF THE CATHOLIC (auEs-noN. The Earl GLIFY expressed hiS deep regret at having to communicate to the • House, that the Noble Lord whirl) uI given notice of bringing tor ward,, this day, the ques,tion respecting the Ro man Catholics, was so .cx.trentely ill that he was t ! tiable tu , attend the Boise. lie regretted olio b tlie.disapnolutntemt, not only on account of the great importance of the question, but also font the great public intetes_t_witich it had excited. To f_rt'eni, t:t► tar as possible, Humber disappoint meat, he,proposeel to name 'Monday seionight , f or the discussi;rn.—Ttle Lords wer e efirtkied to be sum- Molted tot Mont;ay se'tinight. REPORT OF THE BANK COMMITPFE, 1-1ARI;ow BY presented the. Report of ter, I eSpertiilg the 1541..1c. Re striction, Bw. said a tew words in a low tone 01 which it could 6.itly be heard that he proposed the Report to.he' :cad short, and. tta ) t i c intimated Iris intention of emoving sotee propositions on the subject on Thursday se'nuight. The Report, he stated, would probably be deli tcrcd on Monday next, and the Appen 7 dices on TneSdaNr. he EAneGuEY urged the propriety of giving more Jine. for the consideration ,of the Report, before bringing forward any proposi. ions On t h e subject, it it were m,rely to pr., serve the linear once of decency ; it heing impossible that a Re port, with the Appendices,, which had taken the Cfrmmit,tee three months to deliberate upon and' arrange, could he folly considered by their Lord ships within the short period allowedby the Noble previous to moving his proposition ; add toihis, the vast importance of the question, ex teinfing, as it did, into so many ramifications of detail, and affecting so Materially the public in terest ; and it was .surely not too much to ask, That more time should be allowed for its consi defatiOn, before being called upon to come to filly decision upon it. The H ouse, besides, might pledge itself with respect to general principles, whilst the House of COMIDOUS, in which any-Le gislative measure upon the subject would doubt- - less 'originate, might come to a different conclu sion, and thus the tiroo Houses might be placed in'the .very embarrassing situatio❑ of bolding con. fiicting opinions upon a question of such great awl general importance. He trusted, therefore,, that the Noble Eirl woold , not object to afford ;more time for the consideration of the Report, before calling upon the House for a decision. Lie suggested also, that it would be a great conve nience if the Noble Earl would communicate to the House the nature of the propositions lie in teutlt•d to move. The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not see any just ground for postponing. the consideration of the Report beyond the flay mentioued by his Noble Friend, on_ he contrary, he thought it of the greatest importance that the earliest possible pe riod should be chosen for bringing on this (pies lion, involving as it did So 'many considerations of :the highest public interest.' With respect to what hail been said by the Noble Earl of there tint being time to undo stand the Report., the fact was, that the question would be best under stood after it had been discussed in that House. As,to the made of bringing on the discussion, he contended, that upon all questions •of groat pub lie importance it was by far the host course to (Es ems the principles which were to form the ground t: ors: of any Legislative, measure respecting- them previous to bringing forward any Legislative en.' actmenti'; - This had been the course adopted, txith regard to the Irish propositions, and with respect also to the renewal of the Charter of th e East India Company, and the, advantages of it we,re, that' all .the bearings of the question could he ascertained with much more clearness and accu racy,by both UotiSc9,l han by coming at once to die consideration of ,Legislative enactments. As to the, propositions, fhe had no doubt his -Noble Friend would, commtmicate the nature of them to - : ,the . , House, previous to i.iinging on the dis• cussion. Ibq E4):1.91 - ,HARRowISY expressed his readiness to ernutoor2lcate, the fiAltit:e of his propositions to the Llon4e,previoto to the discussion, but saw no reason for postponing that discussion beyond the day, he bad already mentioned., Mdr(wess of tANSDOW,NB agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey), as to the vast :import ance of , tiie :subject, but he, at, the Siiine time, agrced with the Noble Earl opposite, that it was right to fix the est liest day possible for going into the discussion. fie was of this opiniin, be cattle the public were so deeply interested in the question that he thought it was doe to them that, no time should be lost in giving to it all the con ' sidiration it 'could receive in that [louse, and at the saute. time imparting Co the public-all that in forMation respicting the subject which must of course be derived front its being . , discussed by their Lordships. It did not however follow that the day-mentioned was to be irrevocably fixed, as it, from any circumstances, it should be found in the interval advisable to postpone it, the Noble Lords on the other side would doubtless not object to that postponement. The Earl of LAUDERDALE considered the time too "short for any thing like a proper understand ing of the Repor't, a Report which had cost the Committee so much labour and trouble, and which, involving as it did propositions alrogether new with reference to the system hitherto acted up,,n this country, and what the wildest Oleo t i.smotight look to with .apprehension, required the t i tio,st 'nature and deliberate consideration. I t was quite its v.e.in, be thought, to come to the discussion or such a subject with ouiy ten days' titre to consider it. Lord RtnesoALE suggested, that the proposi tions tb be'tnoveir by his Noble Frienl'should he upoo the t>ible some iLiys previous to the dis cussion', in order that the House might io the ;1)- terVal be coubled to consider them along with the Report. - The Earl.of Llveßropt, agreed in the expedi ency of this course of proceeding. The 1.±,r1 of 11 a Rttowriv also, AR was understood (his Lordship spoke in a very low tone of voice), agreed to this, but could not coosent to postpone the discussion ; it beine, dibeovered 'however, that the day his Lordship had fixed upon was Ascen sion DAy, commonly called Holy Thursday, when the [louse does nut sit, he namtd Pr day. se'n ufght. _ _ The Earl GREY again objected to the shortness of the time allowed tor the consideration of the Report, and observed that the discussion of it could afford no srs tol information to the public, unles3 their Lord•hips came to 'it with informed minds, - which could not he the case unless a ;ooger petiod was allowed for consideratlon. however, the propositions were ni-rely to be moved on the day named, and the debste on them adjoin-I)rd, he could set no objection to that course Ui ploeteding. The Earl of LIVERPOOL, on the pTirt of his Noble Friend,` disclaimed the intention supposed ,hy the Noble Earl, it being the purpose ot his Noble Friend to btiog on the discussion on the day last' named, communicating to the [louse in the' interval the nature ot the propositions. '[lie Earl GREY repeated his objections to the rhortness ot the time allowed for the considera !ion, of the Report previous to being called upon to discuss it. Atter a tew words again from the Earl of HAR ito w BY, !lie Lords were ordered to be summoned for Frid:ly se'onight. 1 Ise Report, which .was merely read'pro forma, was ordered to be printed.—.—Adjourned till Moo day. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Colonel BAGwEt.t. reported from the Taunton Election, Cotninittee, that Sir Win. Burroughs, Bert: was not duly elected ; that Mr. Collings. ought to have been returned; and that the oppo sition to said petition was neither frivolims nor yekations. Sir C. ROBINSON reported from the Galway Election Committee, that the Sitting Nlember, Valentine ' Blake, Foal. was duly elected ; and that the petition was not frivolous or vexatious. Mr. I,Eq.IE presented a petition from the High Shuriff and Grand Jury of the County of Monaghan, praying fur ati alteration in the - Grand Jury Presentment BlU.—Ordered to lie on the table.► Mr. DENI"ON .presented petitions from Camberwell and Bermondsey aOilist the Parish Clerks' Bdl.Ordered to lie un ttik table. . 11r. LYT'fELTON presented a petition from the Solicitors tend Attornies of the County of Devon, against unqualified persons being permitted to act as Conreyancers.—Ordered to lie on the table. • STGART WORTLEY presented a petition from the Woolltn Nlannfactitreei 4 ,f the West Riding of Yorkshire, against the rePeal of the law for stamping woolltns.—Ordered to lie on the table. Petitions mere presented from Abingdon, Kendal, St. Mary's, 4'-liitechatiel ; and St. Paul's, Depttoid, against the Poor Settlement Bill.—Ordered to lie on the table. • Mt' FAZAKEIILEY presented a petition from Great Grimsby, againt the . Electors' Oath gill.—Ordered to lie on the table. ‘_ Mr. Z A.KEI,LEY moved for the production of certain Accounts relating to the Proceeds of the Sinking Fund, for the yeArs 1814, 15, 16.--LOrdcred. INSOLVENT DE BTORS. On the motion of Alderman WAITH MAN, there was or dered tube aid before the [Joust., an Account of the Ag gregate Number of Persons discharged n! , der the Insolvent, Act; the gross amount of their Debts; the gross ainimut of the Property received by the As , ignee; the gross amount of Fees paid to the Officers of that Court, specifying the ap plication: 'f l ie into a Committee on Thomas's Divorce Bill, when 'witnesses were examined. BANK REPORT. Mr. PEEL gave notice, that on Monday, the 17th, he should move - the House to resolve itself into a Co mm itt, e of the whole LAotise ho' the purpose of tat %' into eonside rati ,n the Ri:port of the Secret Committee on the Affairs of the Bank, • . . STOREKEEPER-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT. Mr. HUME stated,tliatia utscier to spew the enormous ex. pence incurred in the storekeeper-General's Department, he rose to move that theie be laid before -the House a Return' of the Haltipay,of that Estahli,hnient, stating the previbos Services of the tiffiee'rs so placed, anti the renfons for. su c h disposition ; together w•lth a Return of all the Notingent Ex penre of 'Warehouses,. ike. ,Connected with that Department of the Pu,blicNerrice.,-(irdcred. !Oil the motion of Mr. LUSHINGTON, it was ordered, that thete be laid' before the House an - account of the Aniount of - the Sale of StureS, &c. in the Storekeeper•Geire ral's Department. NORTHERN mourr.• .Mr. M. A. TAYt.Oß'wished to ash the iN'ohle Lord oppo site, if any steps bad_ been taken towards' holding Assizes more frequently on the Northern Circuit ? Lord CASTLEItEAGH was unable to' give a satisfactory answer'at tiresenti but would make inquiry into it. Mr. LONG presented Accounts .of the Atmy Extraordina rries.—Ordeoa to lie 'on'thetable. , Mr. GORDON knew that any motion, directly or indirectly, in favour of Parliamentary Reform, was viewed with great horror on the opposite side of the House,' bat he hoped the petition he had to' present would he received. ' . l t • was from certain inhabitants of the Northern part of Wilt skirc, who complain/al-that they were some -fifty orsixty miles from the place at. which heir Representatives were elected, and were from this circumstance unable to cote. They prayed that power might he given to the Sheriff to. move the Election to the County Town, which would afford them an opportunity of giving their vote. After a few words from Mr. METHUEN, the petition was ordered to lie on the table.. GRAND DUCHY OF BADEN. Mr. SINCLAIR said, that he was desirous on this occasion to put a question to the Noble Lord, which he had been pre vented, by want of a proper opportunity, from asking at an earlier period. It related to a transaction which had excited considerable interest, nut only in , this country, but through out the whole of Europe. A Treaty had been entered into between the Gsurts, of Munich and Vienna, for ,effecting, in behalf of the for Mer, au eventual diimemberment of the Grand Duchy of Baden ; and it was understood that this ar rangement had received the sanction of several other Powers. In order to, avert this calamity _from his subjects, the late Grand Duke of Baden executed a formal deed of settlement, by which he declared his dominions to be indivisible, and called .to the succession a regisiar series of lll's. He (Mr. S.) ,therefore Wished to know from the Noble Lord, whether this solemn act had been considered and recognised by the Congress at Aix-la-Chapelle, and whether the Courts, which had entered into a conspiracy for despoiling a defence less Ally had been induced to renounce this unjustifiable design -Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that if the. Hon.l\jember would wait until the Treaties connected with the territorial hiLrang2ments of Europe were laid iiefore the Liouie, he would then he enabled to form his opinion upon this subject. In the mean time, be emild assure the non. Member, that no communication oft - the nature he 'had mentioned r:•r.s to the Congress of 'Aix-la-Chapelle., EtEcToits' OATH 131 LI.; Wr. WILLIAMs rose to, m the second read ing of the Electors' Oath Bill, After every con sideration that ire had ken enabled-to give the measure, he telt assured that his Bill Brent neither to alter the mode by which Members were seated in that House, to impair the rights of individuals, nor to disturb any species of property. Its object was solely, to make that illegal which was ac knowledged to be prima facie fraudulent, and to extend to boroughs the same principle which" was so salutary in the election of Representatives for counties. It demanded that a legal consideration should have been paid, and that the party voting should have actually the freehold in his possession. The fraudulent practice of split ting freeholds first took place in the reign of Charles the Second, at the period ot, the Po psi' Plot, When the Presbyterians, inflamed with deadly animosities against the Papiltsilotrodoced, for political purposes, that practice. But its in troduction was considered by the highest autho rities of that day as illegal and unconstituujonal ;, .and on a cause tried at Kings , am before the Lord . Chief .I.ustice Pemberton, that Learned Judge de clared it to be a- practice contrary to the.princi pies of the common law, a n d subversive of the purity and dignity of Parliamemmt. Ira - . the reign •of James the 2d the practice was renewed, as a Means to enable that Monarch to'effect his favou rite object of restoring Viipety.:. Thus it was that the Iwo parties, with objects so, opposite, had re-, course to the same fraud to ac complish their -re spective ends. The evil ,had so much noireesed, that in one coonty, on' the eve of an election: 500 fi c titious and fraudulent freeholders were! made. The Act . of Antic elecekrd its progress, and since the passing of the IDth of Gorge the '41,. lie believed there was no instance ut any of these occasions! and fraudulent votes being al lowed at elections for coanties: Why, then, should such a practice be tolerated for lioroughs ? On Is hat principle could a distinction be made % And yet no man Could deny that the practice ex isted in these places to a considerable extent. — It might he said in answer, that it was open to tire party complaining to prOve such votes fraudu lent before a Select Committee of that House.— The Hon. Member theta proceeded to state cit comslances within his . own knowledge some years ago, to prove that such,a mode of redress was inefficient. With the greatest respect for the House of Commons, the guardians of the liberty of the people, he inust say that Election Com- Mittees frequently came to a decision not conso nant to the law of the laud,. Was he wrong in trying to get rid of such practices ? Was he wrong in trying to establish as a principle, that all ectm voted at rlect'ions sho ohf have boon fide votes ? The remedy which he Oroposed - was not new. There was some approach to it in the reign ot Anne, and there were two Acts of . Geo. 2d, which got rid of the evil as far as counties, and towns w hi c h were counties in themselves; were coocerped. His object was to extend the operation of - those Acts to every borough in tire lingdoin. Who would - Say that such a proposi slot) was adverse to the Cou?titutioti, or to the principles of,law ? He knew that there were per , sons who, thonght that there was something pe culiar in what were called burgage tenures, which ought to exempt them from time operation of his He really could not understand why• they should be so, exempted. Why should Members of Parliament he returned in any plaCe by illegal means ? Let the Legislature, however, expressly. declare that,and he should he Satisfied. For hien self, he thought those but - gage tenures the greatest bit:wish in the Constitution, and subversive of time rights of the people. It could not he expect ed, therefore, that with such an opiniou he should introduce the exemption io thei Bill, but it the Bill were allowed to go into a Committee, and the sense of the Committee should appear' to he in favoUr of taking the burgage tenures out of the ooeratian of the trill, he kVOliii! not Oppose Tu «.! oath that he proposed n'aS not a upv one.. y the 25th of th.e King, an oath was pre scribed. of which that which he now proposed was only an alteration. All that Ire trained was, that the' oath should state distinctly in virtue of whist right the individual taking it was abotri• to vote. --At tire pre4nt poi - tient, when the public nriod was so much agitated on the question of Parliamentary Reform, he entreated the House to _ consider what a support and-what a, handle they wOuld give, by, the rejection of such a measure, to those who, under the pretence of Reform, wished to overturn theCenratitution. _ Mr.D,GILBERT complimented the Hon. Member on the bold and manly *manner in which he had treated the subject, and which rendered it, on the first view of the question, difficult to see what objections there could be to the adoption of the Bill. With respect to comities, the objei.t of the Float. Gentleman had been long attained. There ve s re• some other parts of the Bill, to which he (Mr. D. Gilbert ) . .had no objection ; but in at tack!ng the burgage [comes, he was endeavo u ring to annihilate one of the most valuable parts of the Constitution, and one which was indispeosihle to its existence. lie (Mr. Gilhert) had always Coo,- teoded, and always should contend, that time House of CoMmons was an assembly, ,not Bide-- gated by but virtually representing the people.— It contained width' its walls advocates and de tenders of every class of the commtmity ; and it was impossible that it could systematically act against the interests of the people; but it was one of its great merits that it was not a direct delege :tion front the people. It never was.So ; it never ought to he so. If it were so, it could, never, without ihe interference of nAlitary force, co-exist with time other 6ranches of the State. Of that fact he was as firmly convinced as of-any his ima gination could conceive. This had beefs evitmeed in France, where an assemblage so deleeated speedily overturned the Monarchy. Under. our esent Constitot ion the country had long flotirish ed. If he understood from the Hon. Gentleman that.he.would except the burgage tenures from the operation of the Bill in the. Committee, he (Mr,.Gillkert) as a matter of courtesy, would not t, oppose the second reading, although he had otter • . ' obitetions 16 the ineaenre ; Lot ;rthe. lion• fiflew , tleman would not give Stich a pledge, he fOr lithe self bound to take the sense of the 11 ,, n 50 06 motion for the beco nil reading of the Bill. fi t Mr. WILLIAMS, itt'explauation repeateti "" be he had before stated, namely, that, tl" 'ng 35 ' d t o x veC did of bttrgage :enures, it coati no tbai hi should himself exempt. ti3lko fro t h e 6 7,; ratinti of the Bill, but that, if In WCOnonittee ( 1 4 sense of the Mouse should be averse to Ho t 1 1,e of the Bill, they rnight deal with as they thoog proper. Mr. BRAND maintainer!, that the syste nl Nomination was one of the greatest blots 0" ; 'Constitution. He .thought ; the liononr8;11t Mover's proposition perfectly fair. Let the I r , go into a. Ci.miuitt,e,,and then let the floc' o. 'able Member for Bodinin propose to take the mioation Boroughs out Of the operation of Bill. Besides, it should be .considercd, tha t ag • . provisions of the Bill were applicable 'to other .0 script ions. of franchise besides burgage ten ures, :o the correction of the irregularities atreod."t which .he supposed the Honourable 60)Ae3F-jr, opposite bad no Objection. It was, ii! l tt L o pt• nion, the duty of the Muse. to go into a mitiee ► on the 13'01 as a declaration ot getterall'i?e: and it would then be fOr. the H onou r a ble.G ent i iii man to point out what lie thought ought In be exceptions. hv nd Mr. COURTENAY contended, that it was for means, clear that some of the defects exist ed which the Bill professed to futuish a reine"r o f It was adubtfidto , him whether the sYs tell 'i rl sr occasionality was not at present provided ag'it-to by law. TheHotionrable : Gentknoll; wi 4le( ,;/ a provide, that no one should vote in .virW e n freehold, unless lie could prove that he lo a " e he iti possession of it for a certain time. l'''`. l . fi re apprehended, was already the h ; and that on that subject the Bill' was unnecessary re' The question came to this.-- , was the Lin 4se l' „ge pared to make that the law respecting' 1 ) 44 ,0 tenures ( , which syls3 the law respecting C0111' N;' 0 1 ; and towns being counties in ihemselves being so prepared, he.objected to the 1 3 ' 11 . 4 i l ) e gether ; for if any alteration were requisite oaths, that might be made the subject se , P 4a rate measure.. On those gronnds lie mot et! Amendment; that the Bill be read a secood that day six months. the Mr. Serjeant ONsLow maintained , tb' t Hon. Mover of the Amendment had been l'ic();:a sistent with himself, having first argued 0 41 ' I rs Bill wits unnecessary, and then admitted that P°„'.. of it might be made the Subjectof a serrioe 11, a 0 sure. He (Mr. Ouslow) supported the $ the ground that it only called on the vot ers give certain criteria, in order to afford the al e of ascertaining whether or not the g eneral ciple of the. law against 'occasiooality bad b violated. . , ft Mr. COURTENAY explained ; a nd atter ho words from a Merober, whose name could out.' learned-, the House divided-- For the Amendment ................ 19-7 4!1 4gaisist it - Majority against the Bill NEW rosT OFFICE. oire (l The CHANCELLOR of (he Excneeto - flt t" . " the Ordei of the Day for the HOuse z esolv i ' r g self into a Committee Of Slipply. of Mr. - R. GORnoti observed, that the sug'i3'oi 2:38,0901. had already been expended in (leafc-; a site for the New Post Office. lie wa s 3 :it that one•third of thiS $11(11 was to be -rep . the City ; but to talk of its being renaitl 1-)) ; ; I c tt c 'ity was a mere farce, as (he only WtO . they colld repay it was (rout the Di t ties °° tend Wine, As to that part of the whici a ) late' 10 the erecting of the building i tse lf' he 'c o. des:rons that it should, be such a s , ivookl i f' , 11 1 ,4 nonn to the metropolis. The Cotmnittee t' N e st subject a few years ago had decided th at 1; way would be to obtain a competition or, F u l : e l: ftom various architects ; but thoogh it 113 : pos i itively prOtitked bY the Chancellor of 11 ';" elieT'ter, that there should be no jobbilig' ' , matter, yet hitherto (here had not, as ht' stood, been any 'competition of plans. V" i t ri lf should propose was, that phns should be "r",„0- exhibited at S , ,mt-rset House, or any oth er „ c till° veoient place. so that the opinion of the might he taken upon them. be e" , Mr. LUSHINGT , ON said, that there 1 14- ,no-johbiug in this case. He admitted th at l'e promised there should be a competition of tects, But the business had not yet plmee „,,eo l s so far, andcoUld not till the interior arra9ges-diete were. completed. As to these arrangements,' p. 14 were many individuals to be consulted, cabl e " • occasioned the loss of time.' lo t/ Mr. Alderman IVOOI3, said, the City of 1 -' ° , 11 ,:t1) 0 was clear 12,009/. a year out of 'locke t t 0; , trectioti of the new Post* Office, and the 9"" pence woold continue till it was concluded. - I , it, 'Sir J. Newpows,..wisiied to' know whetiroaltl was intended by the Treasury that there be a competition of plans? Alta 101;1 MH r. LUSINGTON said, the T reasu ry wou l s ,(1 00 1.. cart to take,the best plan, and that th ere. he a competit s ion. 0 0 1: Mr. LONG lidiculettthe idea of ta king ta"; po opinion on an exhibition of plans; and ashe6•o it would be possible to,,colleet the pub )I lic 01 ,0 e in that way ? %vet Mr. croanoN said, if all the different plo 'o'. exhibited to the public, it might pit:ven t ' III proper pldu from btilig selected, .AII..MY ESTIMA TES. 4e ffc' tj :„ On the motion of Lord PAL:stzusToN, e to then resolved into tl,e COmtnittee of S t , i P P-;t which the Army Estimates were refeiro li , ; „ g to Lord P;Lmstts'ro's then said,' that in " s "" P t be move llerhutions for voting , t he sums on p t Army Estimates, he did not think it "e Ce55B COl O ' encroach at any : on the time of th e ~tee length.niO' tn. mittee, as the Report of thelFinanc e Co: so W 4 relative to ilie Army WaS so Nil, a nd s°) much into detail, that it left lit t l e for bins ?)g old. on the subject. As to that Report, D e sd op only say, (hat he was sure the Howe %vol t ' , o , e sC. cur %s hit him in thinking that it did the g' o ple' credit to the industry An d ability of the i l l p os 4 Lord who had been in the Chair. I,e tetlie confine hirnself to a short comparative s" a 5 of the reduetions'on the Estimat CS of this ye ot is compared with those of the last. II) or`'i" Corn pal of trot tfltini) oil 4 c scripti the be twe et} lead t i 'ro p y ) , •lo,,rcv th e fol ~rAoci th e ' co t ° be bnr ar zre:, s , and ve tee, it, ~'rd~, ; ~`~~~ i r {Sae' (11 ,