The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-21 00:00:00

'...is eapitel feed frem riele, at interect, in same 6S 1v.13 partieularly situated in respect of these lewe,...- segemerciel concern. Thus, the responsible merchants He wished, thetefok, that the Bill should be circulated would e. - ithdraw from commerce here tee, and leave then in that country before the matter was discussed. nieces to he sepplied by an infelier class, to the injury and Lord ALTHORP differed with the Hon. and Learned el:relate decay of cur commerce.- . Gentleman (Mr. Sugden.) It did not strike him that the . . ':‘ , lrs.-1.4.11.11N-was ftiendly to the [Teal of these Laws. honest man would, according to the propeeal of the Hone " Mr. CRIPPSI . slid not °hied to 0 moderate amendment G e ntlemen, : be placed under any disadvantage—on the ~ ..t• the system, though he did not acquiesce in a ll the ar- contrary, he co'nceivedthat an advantage would be bestowed 1 gumente of ,the able and Hon. Mover ; for iestauee, in the upon the honest Mart, to which the disheinest would not be • caee'of the prodigal - borrower of money,•ba thottette that admitted. t he d' as.. of the penalty prevented a e.e n nres..frequent The SPEAKER then put the question, and leave Wag ' resos ato uetnieus money-lenders. He hoped the proposed given to bring in the Bill. • ' s•nneelnients woulttdo some good, and ho harm. . CIVIL tt St. . ,vie' J. SEBRIGHT thought the lauded interest meet Mr. 11U311,' rose, pttrstrant to noti ce , t o move for.an particulailyinjUred icy the Usury Laws. The! , made money account of the number of pensions on the Civil List. , Fie lenders d eman d •rito ,„ „erhstentseannoitieseenassuaaseof- - - seised f or this actSSunt upon public principles, this the money advanced. on- wort si - ,, ge e: _What differewse was thole House might sec if the Act of Parliemsktl`tad been corn between inoney.ands o th er a ltos,s of trade and barter? plied with, and whether therensele The pike of plenty. as of 9 not sufficient means of thee commodities, would, if l e ft prov idi ng fo r co d e'ans as that which had lately occurred, value ; and it was as absurd by drawing t n i A se u m free, ultimate tin& its S."" - se -ay that the abienee ail' . restriatien on the lending of made- from which allowances might. be '. would leant to Unfair profit's. on the meney part of the: "tint ' iresceittl ti , l . calling on Parliament for •an sthiltioiiel g. Ily the. 17th clause of the Act paseed in Itti2i. it Tender, as ;it would. be to say that the trade on bread 1- ,, irig free, the seller of -bread could take advantage - WO; provided that the Whole stein to be expended ilionid_l; of a hungry redimeed to 90.0 4 . M. tet ' l 2 l et tie-'ottained a return similar man.—(llear, bear.) These 'awe. he should ever op. to that 1 , _S ., ip''' . ayea - for, and-he found the-account of the p o se, as injurious to all e l assee _ b ee • -- e ,mu chief to the Landed penStaSiVe l' o e n " the - diva List amounted . at that time to 92,000 Interest. .. . . The AT roP v r - --NE ...cENERAL, in refeeeetes 4:6 the n itrid odd pounds. It wee not contended then, no r cou ld it former Billh on thst subi ee t ow, that the House had not. a. right to thole returns; for . , , , said that , ttgy proposed a it had been acknowledged by sume .di; the , most eminent interest repeal, We n t to reracee all: retstaidnasnit the rate of men that ever spoke in ' that fltruses that 'thrusters' rwhit, en Money lent o n lanthee, bendis, :hills of 'exchange, accoun t a bl e for .the Manner in vs th e S e 'Pei - melons n•ere ''''' deists. That inea.snee tli nomplete repeal 'was founded granted. NnbAy. epulh pretend eliat the Civil 'List was en 41. e theory that the value of money, as of other 'matters, geraiSted 'that his lilaseety might do what he pleased , with eif trade, would loasa find its natural l e v e l. O n this land- it. The money wa s granted. that individ ua ls,. e mi nen t u theory, the advoc a t es of th e re p ea l h e ld t h at t he re ought ' for ;:itikAie servi ces , might be reward e d out of it - - He was to ' be no pattic ular standard of inter e st. N ow that pat e - ' 'sorry, however, to find, by the return.. made- in- 1820; . esple he toneidered most mischievous, and for that reason that there were few, very few indeed, nrob. the list, he he'd -opposed the metione for a total repeal. The pre- . who had any claim upon it for thell• Pithlic services.— sent motion did not-, hawever, contemplate a total rep ea l of They were generally * ptit thiVe as. an act of greet. and . _ the system, but & partial alteration, for the Hon. Mover favour on the ink Of his Majesty to particular individuals • . -propo . seei to reetiraa legal standardeif interest. Ever op en t o conn ec t e d avitla the Govern men t. W e f oun d u p on it th e sew information, and willing to receive - the benefit of second littnet of Peers, _of- their daughters, nay, .even e! ills . elioughts, he was inclined to give much attention to the Bot: naughters of Dukes, and but few tef. their whose claims Member's proposition. There were two ways otf , en . tr c i ng w ere such as ought to hoe teen allowed. There was tits: rule laid doWn by the Usury Laws for tote 'prevention that of Mr. Husfeise o n for 1,0001. to be suspended as long of illegal interest ; fiett, by exacting the /tenuity ; secondly, as he ehontal Hold any office in his s Blajestees Government by getting the contract cancelled in a Court of Law, , vielai g 0,000/. p er an num. A s h e did no t k now o f a n y . : awhereby the us ur i o u s l en de r l os t b o th principal and his a iieund on which this gentleman•was likely to hove !hen interest: There were various mercantile charge!, ;reel the') placed o n the list, but for greet. public erttieee, he ascribed question; Was, :Whether they were or were not to 'be sane- it to his claims ea that tom . (Hear, hear.) He was tioed.: If the case were a fair one, he ViStlld gladly s e e sorry, however, to My, that that was one of a very few the-laws -vari e d to m ee t that case. It was one thing to exceptions l'A Litt ur of merit. He wanted, therefore, the . . iepeal a fixed legalitandard, aost another to inodify the rentrli i.o be made up from 1820 to the present time, 'in ; .. these •y teWes, so as to prevent that standard- from operate : 'Seeder to see whether there was not room foe any bratnSit 6: ing- indisCriminately ) and e by consequence, Unittetlys ' Ile Mr. Canning'i family to be .placed Oh that lill'ltnitead of Ravi's eicereasepri foe, nprsing such a plan as I.:sight hare the being m a d e a chargeon the ContO'ildated Piled. He would latter obiget'a N.: , 1,, and. if th e Hen. Gentleman could now say a word eelative to th e I r i s h P ens i on Li s t, n ext i n -contrive' tcalseep the. , principle of the Usury Laws un- anniutt to the English. In 1820 he found that list amount a : •teselsed, "*hile he at the same time prevented those laws to /1, 1 30/. per annum. By the Ist Geo. 4th, it was scent pressing inconveniently upon - any class of the coat-1 'provided that no more than 1, 4 00/.. should he grenied snunity, he would .he content. One thing, howevec, he .up to it iu any o ne year, t ill i t cause Slam to 50,0001. un wished to declare, land it was, that as far a t 'lie Hon, 'less that H ouse b y en a'ilthiSS to his Majesty begged that • Gentleman e plan might go. to take awes , the: fixed legal some artivellat individual might be placed upon it. There • standard, so tar did he f ee l at present determined to op. no -hi tiy the same Act to have been a return made of the pose it, and he should not vary his opinion, unless the amount of time pensions every year e_but that had not been Hon..Gentlensan was able when the subject was btobght done. The return lie now begged would the* hith if it formal& for full discus-ion, to throw some revs; end strong lutd been reduced to 50,00.0 4 ,:, - the isiliether room might light upon it. .. - ' - not be found for whit'. branch of Mr. Canning's family. ' . . 'Ale. SMITH thought that if 44e till only went as far as In looking In:Sji• the return of the Irish Pension List, as : the Right 'Hon. the Attortreys.Generai was disposed to give gi`rd'n in 1821, he fouud scarcely any whom he could it„ his saametion, it Might ere well not go any length at atl. consider by their public services entitled to be plaaed The Hun. Baronet %mare the gallery (Sir ILa Htt•orm) had upon it ; several of them, howevee; at the same time •-illisded to a case in which, at it period ealeen the difficulty holding situations of greet einoinment under the Irish Go nf raising money was extreme., ;the friends of the - indivi- vernment.. Ite begged to take this opportunity of saying, duals; in dietteee had omit tb . ..ward to 'their relief with' a that tea had no objection to a provision of 3,000/. per au barge warn, to prevent deem from being compelled to aeteseta ilunt being made for .Mr. Canning's family; but be °b ee the ter ms. et . the usur e r. But he would ti".k Mkt lion. jetted to its being made a further charge upon the natioim - a,i - isnet did lit not consider that there wee still iii this case in its present distressed state. tet It, it . it could, - .glue '• 'even a loos and risk ? .'Theme wie a Its and risk 't o the out of some or, 6.3 cantle provided for such a purpose. . ' friends of the parties. . : ,7 t 'With respect to the aiguthent that might be raieed against :.- Sitsß. HERON rim, to explain. He begged to statu his motion u p on the objectio n t o the p u blic a ti on o f th e • that he neverditi say. any such things What he tll4* , *as names, of the pensionere, lie thought with Mr. Burke, that simply, that at a p ar ti cu l ar p er i o d o f great 'eotentreecial die,- whoever deserved to have his name placed on the Pension ..-. tress the friends off e the Buffeters bad asonet torwasd to - ra v e 'List would not be ashamed of its being there.—(.Hear, thern:fremstha.misforturtee ctnisequent up o n that period ( it heal litear.)—He would now glance at the Scotch Pen : ' distrese ; but _that if . the t.l sut • y L aws h a d b een repealed,' sion List. That was reduced, or rather dir ec t e d t o ,b e se e , tneee s pemetone.would have been leftiOeheit Mier:. lehources. dueed, by the 50th Geo. 111. cap. 111, that was to bay, in 3.L. 5.1111,'H emus - nee!. lie , wase_orryt• e had Mistaken 1.810,_ to 25,0001. it being then 38,000/. That, liowevet, the Hon, Bat•onet,..but lit contenda - that even in his cx - had. not taken place. In looking oveF this list also, he efenation: the Hon. Baronet S., ad only shified the burthen, could not find olio person on it, certainly net ;more than for it was perfectly evident that there were both loss and obe, when if he had had -a t ins in the matter, would ever isle in the transaction.. H 0 cou ld n o t g ee th a t th e slightest have-got there. He found there the conneetiork of Mein 'nJutY,lvOS'lld result-trout:the , modifieatitlnor repeat of these bees of that .House out of number, some of them, too; en . laws. .._. _ . , joying pensions on the -English List. There was ; one I NTi••• sTiVdINSON agreed with the hon. 'Gentl eman imi family, be found, who, in the space of lour years, had at ..'t ` , almost leyery opinionhe had Pinnotinced e and after having different timers allowed them I,t obl. /le did not mean fo t,. ii. t . seess'aCtively -engaged for a period tveeritY years in corn- sad that this Was done through the influence of any con ~rv, ei; iiSaselttl e afaitii, lit 'entilel.trear hint' out in all he ,said re., neutron of . that family in that House. He trusted it was . - 'epreting.:eheSimajetri eu s natures of the' 'Milli , Laeete r 'll'hee .not,;• tmt the. swipieion or itanighe arise in thaste - iyho . were i. ,, e ,,,,,,vc? , 825,9 was, as !the , Heicseentlithe Ile Yi'dalee- eti, atem e ; aware that such thinge were done. He was confident that; ,,.,., .p4iseatesy of these'' effects; a - Lillie. di'd htt hesitate to say. it three millions were planed et the tlesptesal of his Mejesty s .': thet ei.e.Usury Lawe Updated Centetantly and unfavourably Ministers instead of two hthichid thousand pounds, ewes e.: ▪ . freeell.thecoucerus of commercial life. - HE could not inne- sliiilinn of it would be anticipated.—(Hear, - hear.)—lmi ef:,',-I"aineeany thing more Sine.astrone than the 'poition in favour stead, therefore, of continuing in the present course, he --' ' t"' these lawa, 'which, miefect, amounted to thL—that th , , , thought this ta very fit opportunity Ibr reviewing and cum- , a I 87 t.' n ' eti having money its hilt poseeseien, Veliich he Wits willing tailing these lists.—(Hear, hear. )—'flie total of the thin ic),161:i.1, andethe.mati ,in .w,tl- ,)}.. and desiring to borrow lists seas now upwards of two hem died thiresend pounds, „T. ; , i 1 ,4 • "1 1 9 1 V, .ohoubl:ht-pltentefl it oill arranging between whilst it ought to be tedLicell, according to the did - crew ;;'1 : - thenz.a rate- of isact , a,st• v, , hi e l, Would be adValltageoll6 to Acts be had mentioned, to 1'7e!,000/. The English and ,:i ,! ,, ctila , pittiress. : This ttansirctiun sea :.,,- in its tigute, as ihno, IrLii Civil List now granted to hie Majesty, %vas, together, iv:g ee:earl tes e alfy, that e t ..eild- t a k e pla tes bettVtell Dian and roan, I >Q16,000/. , without any distinction of What went to pay e st . 11 1 4 - act' time law, ithpoglid, np'“ it ,th e most enormous, these penrions_and other charges, and what leant , went to . is , zaltY saer -infliete&' under - :limy; eiectunstencee. The pay fertile expenses of his Majesty'e household, tic should 'Hernial able Baronet matter the gellcry '(Sir IL: llet•on) like the Lists made out so that It could be seen at a glance v. ,' e hed,eard that; he heated'the morlificatien of those law how much Went tiir the King's actual personal _expenses, and ' l , !eight have- ate nufaVotiettble effect upon the land e d int e r e st.,.. hew much to the, payment of the - Judges, the Speaker el ', • tut he eoutti not 'brine' hinisclf to imagine that it w o uld. , the House, and other public officers. ' There Was another „ e „,, .In the , present state of affairs it 'Would not b e right i n point to which it would not be unadvieable to direct the at -4e .!,,,,,thetrt il,they ware Vtook to the period at Which those hews tcntion of the House. The Civil List was settled in 1816, I ie, ettereinttoduced, .or . con - Sider the 'eircuunetencee that bad when motley was greatly depreciated, but since that the ,„„ I ptight it the' reign of 'Eliiabeth.• . Itil wished to remark, value of money was so much increased, it behovetl then) to him. , : -gat there was 011 C thing in the proposal of the, lion. review, it, with a view to suiting it to time currency of the ,id e esa lilover, of whichste eirl not 'altogether approve at preeent;. thne.... ,Nothing could inure strongly impress upon. the e e , tiithough he hoped the Him. Gentleman would be . ahle,,when Mouse . the necessity. of closely watching these Pension . . the etueStion-wat discussed, to cone iqee hinithat his appre- Lista than the : consideration that time whole of ties peo er , • heusions swere Unfounded.' If he - understood the lion. sions paid, by the' nations ,including . the Hail-pay List, e a , GentiOrnanla proposal, 'it essas that tiAodje.should be. cum- aniowated to, upwards of six - millions, Dearly one-third of : oelled to payinore than the legal interesi'M'a Court of Law, the twentrinillitms.Government.had at its distessal, after but that there should be no penalty upon demanding umre ; the peynment of the .•interest ef the National Debt , He. Ain] that in the event' Of .'Zin agcement at, a. highererate, thou lit the simple facts ;he had brought before theism en _ . : thieve should: he only an 'lioneueahle obligation to pay this - _titled hint to their support of his motion, : whi t ;b sits, ".that . of presented to his Majesty e prayagg. N higher- rate - of mterest upon the part. the „burrower.. tot , homble.addreas.be: Imo; '. .Thit,;he'fettlsects'iniglit prose a tethPiation to, a_ .that there might helaid . -ba , lor . e_,_that' . .:ll . ° ll + 4 .. rt e tt,rn - s of 'the:: vise . - Pirmstysteesnicle'iic transaction,: to bring', the watter, into - a peneions onthis , Majestyi Civil List in Engtimelorp to the i well s GAM bt-clitSV,'• knilsie iet off. the Obligation, He teiid a he : ..Ist January', :1828i stating the naMe •"of eaeleepermie; the: xa,saftanalUshiti'.....cigtgo::ifie result, hiit,he had, net . sets ~. yet' aMottatOf,pension, the date t.t . 'Whieli • itivis'coirimineed; keJatia °nu: e 'rift iiiia - inalirthillti' the subjeet, ind hoped the_tion. -and whether fm'S life, -or during s?.vsa ''Aleintseenveuhl' he abibio : . ;f)nvince him there was no danger.' return of the Irishend Scotch PenSiOn Lists." di es i . i lre . CALallAFl' Nia::il - ecidedly, opposed' to the repeal . ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. shOuld'iamt ssoi l9l4 thst part. of the lases - which applies to loans of money think, it necessary, either to enter into any explanatione of :!-J e' ki 'l" m w'ttettgii , 'file cases stated by the. Both Member that part of the Hon. Member's speech, in which he stated , ;Were extretnes'aint should be reearded as excePtions, rather the amount of the pensions•paid by the country to be - six than'exaMpleS; but stijl, if that part of ti.oste laws to which million& as he was satisfied that there was not a lember l i e tied a llud e d were r l i4erVed, be saw no objection to the in that House who did not know that in that stun was in provost! of,the'Herf: ivraiii:. • . ' . eluded. the whole half-Pay officer? pensions, - those •of Mr. BARING was i n f soldiers and favour the principle soe . sailors wounded in the service, the whole upon wimiell'his ino tion!v.att'founded, and hoped his H o n e civil , superannuation list, as also every grant made' by . Priem' wt , uld be abreSto.leOneiliate : the Vaxinus ;interests, the Crown, in consequence of' addresses' from that et ol s o succeed in giving . Aleut _ate bop:eyed .state , of the House, to. individuals distinguished for their civil or mili lew. Though he had always voted. for a repeal of the - tar) services. He admitted that they formed large sums, tlinug'nt that t4e,prop o S a l, , foe a m o ditl ea - Usury Laws, he but was sure ehatthe House, having moved the Crovvn ti i m o f d eem was an heiptovement upon., one Aim th e ir- e to eg rant - theme would not :now : begs . tes basin them an , it was well tte,athitt;the legelrate - of :nulledese-(Hear, hear.) , - , -He ,looked upon thine pensions • repeal. He hclieved and that no 1-2iglieititild be • interest ,Is it stood, enforced as Memorials of the. country's glory not , to be abolished. ' ins diiirt of LOW, while no penalty wasi,aflietcd ripon any : .. , ._(Hear, hear.)--eAs little should•ht think-it necessary to transaction carried on e at tVhat waa I %'alled the market prise, :make . any observationsaupen:. what the.. Hon. Gentleman m, leas au improvemeot ellen. a , *SePeali 'be,' had said respecting the..arrangement made letatire to eti : li't thoUghe this e i , i tto imittnat cases of,dia4 . oh, 1110 - ; • , • , TI • H ''- uaile'iV ‘ . as l'ill": 4ble L t" )-.. • a' respect of-axeciders e t ' -''. Civil List on his Majesty coming to b the (f i t:f it:ones e tarn - Sinuet aiiiiSe,: - a . ',' for inste lice, in „ .say that , he, tn a l 'sil id ;that . the price of ' commodities empg .. > - tit,. see ci !ht•eleiitierss ' rie IFUStentoan otate.naigoe .. , ought,_ to annul. the 'present arrangement,: and 'enter into at vari rof • • tor the estate . one se e awe other. The Hon,-Member, in niiikmg that proposal bSen ehhged to'hoeroW money , __ an d. this might • 1 • • • ':the ' • ' :eine y dul.not beat' in: mind principle on which the of iieftarestat . 6,' es , 1 8 4 (4 .!9 P -je t !, which -would „Cant List wag granter{ a " 40 1stiVid , •eits.,,ta et a euusequeut pet too who . T h : - .toethe King at the beginning'. of his ,d '' t " -1 : ' ):', ' ir.fl'Ad. PeriitMa ia the.country, , ..reign ,, : . e.basus on 'which it was then put was, that there • ti l t be thshee should', not. be _constant discussionsand disputes- in the f''',.' lenge lit'ili'e true market prises mib of his ; e repni as -td the amount of the allowance, or rite e tfesk;ir into contieete highly disadvantageous to them; 1 v the necessity '''' ''''nOii ide:Ordimig te'thC pi•opesal of his Hon. Friend, t le, allowance oats made, adepting it. to the times. So that the .s.neel, .itritild . tretsav e d froni the consequences of such contracts. rmanente and nut lt was' to be counted and considered Isfel ork'all these reasons he considered Modification an 7111 • tie necessities of the neot°dis6ussi°n by Parliarnent,"Uniess f , roveinent oil repeal. Ile might also add.another reason; ake application to. itfer wa . should render it'neeessary - to . it was that the iimied s of 'Hon. Gentlemen avonid be quieted 1 11 ' al principles he begged au i ' h ertarit e . ' ' Illstatingthis .. .ai: by m •t who feared'any alteration hi those laws, se far as they . a goner , .. _. . , _. . *remind the Housethat it le was nut one aavocated .by m anl4,tets ftlestsea but' that it . ' had , . ' bore upon Lame nf, money on' mortgages of lands, whi 1 Members ofsthmitin • . . . tie they were willingsupport any modification which would been upheld 'Y s maintenance of the liberties of the ouse,tnOst distinguished h a ve. einmply the effect of doing away with , the •inconye- for their . e people. Having' espect . Of , the ma ' ; • said so much in r „ m t'matl, or 'rather . the Mences on mercantile transautiOns. entle!n incidental part of the lion. u ave'speeidi, ' , he , would - Mr. SITGDEN thought that the meditieation proposed himself to the immediate object of the Hon by the lion. Mover would be infinitely worse than a total now address . That Was, in effetit;-tha:te •• ' ''Usury Laws,. mantles:4 as it would actually. Gentleman's tnotion. ions granted out o e - h e ,.P r(). " repeal of the . upon fraud, eince the dishonest • WI duction of the list of pens _, t _ e t e'teivil' co hold out 'a. bounty „I th e Hou• ben letnan had iseete ee , d , '' always free'iliemselves from the obligation they had incur- 1, List of Eugland, a h could not anticipatewliat44, - . bringing the matter before a Court of. Law, and lit by protesting.tleat e led by ,I to takestosit. ' Mo tto be propose( . , to , placed under a. dieadvantage I fon it .void possibly the lumest would . lie always . . , have but a *et, shOry to repeal all the grose ' be sure. the Hon. Gentleman roost ,• his . ... , —For hiniself, he was well di' posed , .. within ieconettioWN, inconveniences . ' attached to these laws ; but h e h oped th., ' i memory, or it, would have been _ er.. ,.. 0 .. ii ,,,_,._,. _..., ;louse would take time : to consider, and that next Smite, 1 it must be in that of.so mimy other it 1) D lc , m _ int u l lf : int ,. , brought forward. 'en introduced by himself, some well Mettllted plan might be until the , , present) that a similar mon , ,year r two ago, had been Mr. BRIGHT would suspend his opinion ,_ that as:. 1: resisted at.the: time by Mr. Cleaning, in a speech lion had been fully discussed. Goulburn) . Mr. MAX LL wished for some delay--Scotlat.l tinted the ;very grounds upon' which he (Mr. ...., • teal s . .., . . .. .A' • ' • 'l " PPlinie le • I :,..41 1e'1 “ 1 - . •,., It, ~..,1". • t 3.01$ , ,f, .14 V,.1. ,t : . t- . 1 .....,..r..1 rt:t•Eftif ifin'!l areas Iris i letto , ar in. • •• •- ' • . a . ~...,sans _e'en:JO • \ '-' orrtr..:lsllo should feel 4 his duty on the present occasion to resist the Hon. Member fur Montrose's proposition. The Hon. Member now declared that .he called tin this Vcnsion List, in order to ascertain whether some such neweiMditication of it rAight not be aretrttiej,... at oiiid supersede the necessii . e !of that pettsitth, which it had so lately become his (Mr. tioulbitrn's) duty to propound to the Ueuse the.farnil • of Mr. Canning; and the round 4110, tbe, on. M e mb' ee Went On here, a,not`tor: that toe mode he proposed to 'adopt ,‘fei‘• the provision in question, by charging t't 'on the fund he would recommend, would render it matter of no cxpence to the public; whereas, the mede he (Mr, Goulbian) had submitted rendered it a eeetiii-_i apail.:e to them the krst place, the Hon. Member was clearly tvtnTM? !ii this proposition. The expence of this provision, whether charged upon the list in question, Or' upon the Pension Fund, must ultimately be equally borne by the public. The House would be aware that two fund c., ' purposes of this kind, had Nth placed at tht 4141395 a!, siU led only to Certain limitatiOile, 4,.. F sty ; Li s t e!l,siciti was iithitrd; Nth to tin aMoMitalch his 0 . 0.% popriate under it, and as to the .;Att.ii.4tteht amount of any individual pension. Under Mi. Burke's Act, of 1782, the entire amount could hot exceed 93,0001. ; -nor any individual pension the sum of 1,2001. per annum. Now the House would observe of the other period alluded to ) that there had .been ,Paropriated t o his Majesty 'S use &slide:4.l, a pplicable to pensiens mid al vei•Y large suns, in exchange for a large amount 'df profits and patronage which his Majesty had formerly derived from certain sinecure offices so exchanged and sur rendered by the Crown• for this consideration. By this syStem no restraint was imposed upon his Majesty in the grant of such pensions, &c. beyondthe,condition that Ole individual shield t.V . e .ed the twine official 416ity. ' Whichever course had been adopted of providing for the pension to Mr. Canning's family, the public must have defrayed the charge, because it would have been equally granted, by. his Majesty, in tither' e n;,6, out of funds . placed h!, Parliainetit at his di s p osa l. lie (Mr', C - Oiilli6lt) already stated. that he thought such arrangements as this, in respect of the Civil List, between the CrieWn and the Parliament, ought not to be lightly in terfered with ; and it was. because he did consider, that until that Civil List should be in such a state as to Make it necessary for the Criiivt: is apply to this House for its essietttnti, by reason of its having exceeded the limits as signed it by statute—that until this state of things should have arrived the Hon. Gentleman did not possess any right. to inquire into the details of such list— Mr. RU3lE—The right ?—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Per hap the Hoh. Gentlenian would condeScend to hear the remainder of the sentence.—(Cheer2.) It was, because, at least, until it could be shown that the disposal of the Pensions on this list had been so managed as . to constitute an abuse of the powers so confided to the Crown—(an abuse calling for the interfererite bf Parliatheht)—it was becatise until One of these cases could be made out, that the Hon. Gentleman could have no fair ground for his mu tiOn ; that he (Mr. Goulburn) would certainly resist (Hear.) The Hon. Member had 'said that in 1820, this list, upon his motion, was laid before - the House. It was so; but why ? Because, 1820 *as the very year in which Palliaiant Made rsitti his Majesty the new arrangement alluded to, about the' Civil List iieVerine:.- 7 (Heat, hear.) It was before that measure took place, that the Hon. Gen tleman's motion was made, and it being -.Considered very fitting that Parliament should be in full possession of all the details connected with the charges of such list, before it cont aided such arrangement, no sort of objection or dif ficulty was started to the production of the list, agreeably to the motion. No such case, however, existed now.— Nothing had Leen stated by the Hon. Gentletnan himself to justify Parliament's having- recourse at this time to so ex traordinary a proceeding. It was a little extraordinary that the Hoh. Gen tletnan's objection to the list seemed to amount to this—that he knew many meritorious individuals who were put upon it. Mr. HUME---I raid just the contrary. I said who were not. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had taken the Hon. Gentleman's words down, and clearly understood him to say, that if he had had the distribution of the pen sions, lie would leave assigned them to many more worthy individuals whom he knew. Now, because an lion.Mem bet chose to rise in his place, and say that he entertained a different opinion as to the eligibility of particular indivi duals fof such pensions, from that which had been acted on by those whose duty it was, on their own responsibility, to adVise the Crown upon the point, this surely, was no reason to found the call now made upon Parliament to enter into the details of the list moved for. Mr. Burke's Act of 1.782, to which he bad adverted, as founding, the aisurnerit for his motion, did, in fact, furnish irresistible evidence that it was not that Statesman's intention that the Pension List should, in this incidental manner, be laid upon the table of the House.. It was notorious that in I7s2„*hen thy Asst possed,l the amount of the' Pension List slid greatly e,kesed the 141,0001. limited by that Act, Which declaie.il that no more annual pensions - should be granteA by the Crown until such list should be reduced within those bounds. It was true that Mr. Burke said there should be (aid before Parliament, for its infitrmation in the mean time, a copy of the list ; but this was to be done, according to his own express declaration, only Until such time as the Pensions should not have been reduced to the amount he had so fixed upon ; clearly in ferring that when the reduction should have been effected, the list was not to he produced. It was upon this very principle that the distinction had been observed be tween the Civil Pension List of Vugland and that of Ire land. He could not consent to the lion, Gentleinan's motion, or to give tip a principle which had been ac quiesced in, and acted upon by Members - , on both sides of that House, lbr many years; by all, in short, who attached a value to the circumstance of keeping inviolate, conven tions which hail been entered into between Parliament and the Crown ; and were reluctant rashly to interfere in the regulations of the latter, , respect .of the Civil List. To the other part of the lion.' Gentleman's motion, he (Mr. Goulburn) cupid have no objection. His first-proposition he Was most decidedly opposed: to; not. from any personal hostility to the lion. Member, but front a greatindisposi tioo to disturb a system which had been considered by that House essential to the dignity of the crown, the comfort of the Sovereign, and the convenience of Parliament.......: (Loud "cheers.) Lord r ALTHORP bad listened attentively; !it in vain, to the sikeal of. the Right Hon'. Gentleman, in •the ex pectation ,of hearing, some valid' - reason assigned for resist ing the motion of' Ins Friend (Mr., ffutna)l , ifthere' was nothing discreditable about this list, what would be 'the ribjectiOn to show it to the public?—( Hear;)-- He was one - of - thit thiliiihi that every :thing 3 in ;the, dueled-. ininistiatiOn - of the :- GoVertinient i depended ttpufit: the.ire— sportiibility of Nlinisteri : ;l but that responsibility amo t o l t e d, to' nothing, if a ntotion' of this kw 4 Vi4s.te he refused.: , Mr. 'Secretary II VSKISSON : ebservecli that the Act of the 22d of the late King had deteTtninad'what should be the amount of 'this list- 7 tiantely, .9.5;009/. ; 'but at that tune a mueli . greatet amount of pensions existed, and Par liament determined to reduce it, directing, that until that diminution should have' heen effected, the list should be re gularly laid before it. When the . limits were realised, of course the list ceased tet be produced to the House. Did the Noble Lord (Altherp) or the Hon. Member for 'Mon trose, whose speech he (Mr. H.) had heard with astonish ment, really Mean to contend, that throughout this list they could find but one or two individuals to whom those pensions ought to be granted ? (Hear, bear.) ,• Why the lion. Gentleman had done him (Mr. H. ) the honour to say, that he was one'of the two or three individuals on such bit to whom he would concur in a pension ; that, with one or two exceptioni only, he would give none to the others named there. The Right Hon; Secretary went on..to,enforee. thq arguinenti of the' Chancellor of the',Exaequer, to, show.- the impropriety 'and indelicacy of permitting this list to be called for on a motion of this kind,- as long as it was within the limits assigned fo by Parliament; amid on the incon venience of remodelling the pensions . of the great state officers, for example, according to the . altered value of motley,Or' the condition of our.fitiances—(Cheers from the. Opposition) . ---as often as any'Aleinber might think proper to propose such a proceeding on ,the production of the Civil List. The Hon. Gentleman's argument, if good foe any thing, would go to the exient'of showing that Am bassadors and Consuls,Ssrexample, ought not to be paid by the Sovereign, but rather by the immediate order of th e rn Parliaeet - - • .• Mr. HUMS...—And why not? - 1:N Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON replied, siMply beepset as the Repmentative of a Monarchy, it was but fitting that they 'should be known to be paid by the Monarch whom "they represented in foreign - States. The Right Hon. Gen-' '&ll*n-concluded by observing, that if Ministers were re qiiired to produce' this lint; their frequent liability (which must follow) to such_ a'eall, would have a very fatal effect on' 'the Wllide4ome caution and restraint they now acted 'under', in advising the Crown upon the grant of pension!, - froin'the Veiy fent' of exceeding the limitations assigned by the Att'of 1182, and so being obliged to come before Par lianient. If the. Civit List, however, with all its details, ` , Witt - at any time likely . to be made the subject of inVestiga 'l46% by that'Hoilse; of cootie this reluctance to come before 'l"skiitinent .Wotild'be proportiouably weakened. :britUSHII4GTON argtied,for the expediency of corn 161YiblOvit6'llieCinOtion 'of his Hon. Friend, the Member foy Mbritiorte. 'MP. MIME rat' d ariie• t vz, , 43 . , ~! IC arguments of the, Right goo., erzr/, ;~-~-~ Gentleman opposite (Mr. Huskisson) as mere words. In spite of his attempt at derision, he contended that the House ought to have the accounts for Ala ha had moved. Mr. FERGUSSON was meat anxious to support the pre:;tiit and by no means to atinby, thein • with,: needless motions. hie did , litictre.Ver, think that they might grant the presort in ton witliaut datti{ ir!r j tat ta the -Crown, er their' own Character. l 4 has afire theft was tidtNiii to conceal in the . list, and it hid the appearance that there was in refusing it. , lijr.,qAt,CitAFT contended that the Hoilse ought not to move . for thes . e. as outfits Witho s itt sheWiiig at Case of abbe in the distribution of the money. The Civil List bad been settled at its present amount far the life of the King, to avoid the invidious appearance of inquiring into the distri bution of the money by the Crown. He maintained, then, that it would be uncourteous and unconstitutional in the 110:4.4 tO cull fur these d.ceotifits, It would perhaps lie dii relit if die ;,in s were, from distress; to tefid to tilt' Ilckuse fottice . tiniarY aid. . • TAW expressed_ his surpiisb at the dOctrnie of the Hon. Member who had last spoken. Surely that House had a right to inquire into the distribution of public money, by whomsoever distributed. Without this power in the House of Commons, and the production of their ac counts, responsibility was a joke. The lion. Gentleman who. spoke hit Old th6nthat they Ought. not to inquire Until a case of ablise could he made out. But he Should like to know how they were to get to the knowledge of a case of abuse, if the means of knowing the application of the money were denied to them? The House then divided:— For the motion Ag . f.itgt it - • ... Majority I • LAWS OF REAL PROPERTY-INFANTS. Mr. BUMDEti Moved for leave to letitig in Bill which he had introduced into the House, fdt• the alteration of that part of the Law of Real Property, which enabled Trus tees for a Minor to plead the infancy of the vendor against the completion of the conveyance begun by the predecessor. He thought it most desirable, that by a legislative enact ment, there should be some amendment in a regulation which entailed so ninth expense and delay upon the parties. If the contract were commenced by a man who died pend ing the etecution of the deeds, if ..the heir-at-law were a minor, he could not be compelled to execute it by the Lord Chancellor, till having come of age, so that it might stand over for .a considerable time. He proposed also to make an amendment in that part of tla,laNv which required an expensive inquiry to be institutirfo r the discovery of trus tees, in the case of the sale of 'charity lands. He knew an instance wherein the Commiesiouers having ordered a charity rent charge of 7/. only to be sold, an expense of 7001. was incurred. It would have cost no more if the income of the estate had been a million. What he would propose as an amendment was, that a simple petition should be presented to the Lord Chancellor; and two notices inserted in the London Gazette, requiring the parties, if any, to come forward within a month, or any limited period.— Upon , aluture occasion, he would call the attention of the House to another abuse in the practice of the Court, in which he had the honour to practice. It had been said, that the dungeons of the Fleet immured many indiViduals, by order of the Court of Chancery, for years. Now the fact was, that the Lord Chancellor could not refuse to commit any one guilty of contempt; and it frequently hap pened, that a man rather than execute a deed which he thought might injure his property, would remain in gaol fer a long series of years. One man had actually remained in gaol for thirty years. As an amendment for this evil, he should • propose that an officer he appointed by the Court to execute where a party was thus obstinate : he hoped the House would pay attention to this sebject, and thus show that they were seriously disposed to remedy the admitted defects in the practice of the Court of Chancery. Mr. TWISS seconded the motion. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR agreed in what the Hon. Mem ber had commenced, but he did not go far enough, but even the little to be attained by this Bill would. be of value.— He agreed that there was no argument against the Court on account of prisoners being imprisoned for contempt, lbr not executing deeds, as he himself had often occasion to go to the Fleet Prison, and endeavour to prevail upon persons imprisoned on this account to do as they ought. The Hon. Gentleman went en to say that he would, unless further steps were taken to proceed with great reform in the procieedings of the Court of Chancery generally,' still per severe in bringing the subject before the House and the country. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. - CORN LAWS. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER the House went into - a Committee on the Corn Importation Bill. . On the second clause being read, Mr. W. WHITMORE rose to p`ropose the amendment of which lie had given notice. His desire was, that there should be a fixed duty' from the 'period at which corn came to the price of 555. up to 635., during which he proposed that there should be a duty of I Os. a quarter, and that when it was below the former the duty should increase ; while, on coming to the latter, it should decrease until the price rose to 70e, when all duty was to cease. Alter some observations on the prices during different years, the Hon. Member concluded by proposing his resolution, to the effect that, when wheat was bos. and tinder 515., there should be a duty of IL, and that as it rase the duty should decrease by 2s. until the price wassss.„ from which, until it arrived at 655., tie duty was to be 10s., until it rose to 704., when there . was to be dduty of h. : and that, for every shilling wheat fell in price under 50s. the duty should increase by 2s. Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS, although a firm friend to free trade, thought that the Government would have an incorrect sense of their duty if they consented to a scale so linv IN that' proposed by the Hon. Member. The house 'was aware that 50s. was the point at which the duty of 11. .was to be fixed;- and he isked, would they be willing to expose the agriculture' to the danger of importation at so low a standard ? The Hon. Gentleman then showed, that in 1'796 and 1804 duties were raised because the average price had increased at those periods. That was also the ease in 1815;' but it should be recollected that, in the four yeare prior to 1818, the average price had bra:nil:is. 5d., in consequence of which the House, and be.hirnself, 'had agreed to the high duty then imposed. On the same principle, he was opposed to the idea of exposing the try at present to the-experinaent of importation at such a low prier. Under the duty of last Session, there were na less than 115,000 quarters imported ; and even under 'the' scale' of the Corti 14111 of last . year, there, were no, less half it million quarters jqnported.. the, year,. .16 (J - 7! thessfSvere lin y Wel ve r e, oding tsy.o, : Years.art ethirciry t , when there had hviu a : larger ouarnity imported than in the last year. • After some further ohservatinns; the aniendrnent was pub and negatived without a division, and the. original Resolu tion amid. to. On the clause for the appointment of inspectors, and for the appointment of the places where the averages were to be taken, , • Mr. :PORTMAN, although aware. of the difficulty of attracting the attention of the Nouse, still thought it im peratively his duty to impress the necessity of a change with respect to the places where averages were to be taken. The first place named was London, and,that he chiefly ob jected to, because he did not conceive that the averages could be fairly taken there. After ping into the history of the appointment of places'for taking the prices, the Hon. cluitlein.an said that his object was to protect the grower, and. London was the, last. p)alle where that object was likely to be attained. lie would therefore .move that London. be .left.otit of the :14 of places in, which ,averages were to be .4keP!. . • . . Mr. FRANKLAND LEWISit WIS thought would be- uite impossible to, change, , one. . part . _of the, nagmsUre .withoutC*ging others , It was; hoWever, gratifying to find that tinne novelty was . introduced into the debate, for they were never called on to recognise the argument adduced in 1815, that. of giving protection to • the grower merely, without consideringayliat was due to the consumer. The House shoat remember the scarcity of 1800 .and 1801, when 200,000/. sterlingwent from the metropolis, and he there .o hop e d the House twould never legislate without considering ren the consumer. As to London,, it should be considered that it must necessarily have a great weight f+ its-consumption, and if prices rose suddenly, and that they were obliged to wait for the averages of . other towns, which were always a. week later, and Ireland of course still. more so, the consequences might be of the worst hind.. That averages were also important as respected the preven- . tion of frauds, as they Were the only chance against such practices, because from nit beitig from one place only, but from the mass, it Was not possible that deceit could be 'carried on. He contended that the exclusion Of London from the averagee would be attended with effects the most, -unjust,' and would be indeed injurious to the interests of the farmers themselves. Mr, CURTEIS wished to know, whether or not mixed corn was to pay a duty, and also wished to know, whether the Isle of Man was included in the Bill. ' Colonel SIBTHORP supported the motion of the Hon. Member for Dorsetsbire, contending that the course pur sued with regard to the Corn,L4ws, was nothing less than a premeditated war against the best interests of the farmer. The principle upon those averages that was taken appeared in the results to be completely fallacious. In London, tricks were played, vitheorn,.whick)s 4,01 e etreetof raising its . 1 "'"" .tYworcAib n=aunt ni sI;T. nominal price far above that which was reaffy - reeei'vell by the farmers. BE NETT (Wilts) was-against-the -averageA heir , taken in Loudon—for here corn So often changed hand: ihitits real price seldom appet:* His object in wishing to *hide London was, that nothing sales should appear in the returns—nothing but a factitiou2i ai . erage dbtr!iLtrd by taking the prices in London. He was hints& a cottsidel'alilt corn-grower, and he never was able to obtain the prices which the Gazette represented as thiise bt the Market, it was upon these grouud..l he de sired to have hoiin .fidl; averages,, and upon these grounds he Would support the motion of Hon. Member for Dorsetshire. —.-------- Mr. F. LEWIS said in reply to an Hon. Member opikil site, that mixed corn could not be considered British, and that with respect to the Isle of Man was not included. After a few words from Mr. PORTMAN and Mr. Cult tris, the Committee divided. For Mr.' POrtman's Motion r Against it 132 ;Majority On our re-admissid E: WODEHOUSE was con . - eluding the observations with Whieh he initdAced his mo tion for including the following ports of ScAland and Ire land in the number of those from which returns were tube made of all'grain,' with the exception of wheat, namely : EdinbUrgh; Glasgow, Aberdeen, Haddington, Dumfries, and Dundee; Main; Cerk; Waterford, Limerick, Bel fast, Sligo, and Galway. LEWIS observed, that the effect or the Hof. Member's motion would be to give an increased protection to the agricultural interest. He put it to the Committee, whether or not oats required any increased protection be yond what was actually given to them by the measure then under their consideration. The Hon. Member then en tered into some details, to show that the view he took of the subject was foundtd in fact. WODEHOUSE said, that his proposition was to include all grain except wheat; and with respect to oats, he wished the House to recollect, that that was a descrip. tion of grain subject to peculiarities to which the others were not liable. Mr: V CURTEIS expressed his surprise at the silence of the Irish 'Members; they were deeply interest - 0 in the pre, sent discussion. If any thing were said about the Catholic Question, or Maynooth College, or the Education of the Poor, or the Treaty of Limerick, they would, no doubt, be most animated in debate.—(A laugh.) Mr. M. FITZGERALD certainly agreed that on any question relating to oats, the Irish were deeply interested, and had a right' to be considered. There were two' circiun stances, which, if duly estimated, would lead to , the convic tion that'same measure peculiar to oats ought to be adopted. It was alleged that this country was overrun with Irish paupers ; that they depreciated the price of labour, and produced the worst effects upon the eonditionof the labour ing classes in this country. It was well known that iu a greater or less degree, the persons who came f..mi that country to this were producers of oats.' Now• if a steady demand were insured to . them the quality of the grain would improve, the quantity would be influenced by the extent of market, and, upon the whole, the Ultimate effect would be, a reduction of the average price, and a great ser vice in other respects to both countries; and also one of the best practical remedies that could be devised to put a stop to the influx of Irish paupers. Ireland ought to be brought as much as possible within the 'scope of the British market. Ne could not understand upon what principle Parliament could think - of treating Ireland us 'a foreign country:. Why should she be shoved out? It was inconsistent with the Union, and altogether unjust towards Ireland. The question was then put, and negatived without. a division. Mr. CU RTEIS then moved, that whenever the same cern was sold twice in the same week, such sales should,, not be allowed to influence the averages. Mr. FRANKL AND LEWIS could not agree CO a.clause . of so much importance, without an opportunity Of conside« ing its probable effect. ' Mr. CURTEIS ag reed then to withdraw it for the pre sent, giving notice of his intention Co move it on a future occasion. The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. PENSIONS' ACT.-PERSONAL DISPUTES. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, the Order of the Day for the Second Read- ing of the Pensions' Act Amendment Bill Was , read, and., the Right Hon. Gentleman moved the Second Reading 'of .the Bill. Sir RONALD FERGUSSON then ,rose, and, spoke, somewhat as follows; Isut the Hon. Baronet was not at all times thoroughly audible :—The last time that 'this . - Subject was discussed, sonic Objections - were 'made to the measure, and the conversation which had then taken place, had been sent forth to the Public in 'a more.' authentic forme than usual; and in that report ,Motives were'-attributed to the: mincirltj, whi,di they did' nOti•feel; - Mul , theY were treated. very indeearouily:, ( War. Veisori 'can have more respect for:the Hon. Member for -Limerick than I have ;. and if in the observation which I have to make, I should' say anything derogatory to that respect, 1 shall be very sorry. if that Report, which was promulgated not in the common way, proceeded from himself; it will he so much the more authentic ; and I shall be sorry if I cannot dis claim it to this House. The Hon. Member' bas imputed motives to the Minority, attributing to one class of them, what, in his _opinion, is the foolish idea of the finances of the country not allowin , * the grant ; and to the other part of the - Minority,: he - attribute's' mere peraunal motives for their 'opposition. I do not know to which class 'I am disposed to - belong ; but I can say, Sir, candidly, that I gave my vote With a tlear :conscience,' and. with, au honest conviction, which I am prepared to support. It is, in my opinion improper in anybody to attribute motives to Members - ----(hear, hear !) and Gel forbid that I shmild attribute motives to any person, in relation to any vote which he may give here ; but I will say, - that if Tam called upon to give my.rea *sons for my vote, though I wish to make declarations cop-, cerning uo Gentlemen, much less to refer to the character of individuals, which I wish not to seebrOught into ones- Ia l Il i 1. always Like_- respect to dteotiiscoluedlsley.vohttene ... thin, either by me or any one else, I will state those. rea sons openly and honestly. The least thing which I cam wish is to see the dead, treated' with contumely; hut, at the same time, if I am urged on by attacks' made oil my motives), if I am to be taunted into it, I will: take an op.: portunity of -stating why I gave my vote. ' I aid only an humble man, but' I 'can say that .1 gave my vote con_ scientiously. aunt honettly. ,If I had . not been attacked, with: the rest of the minority, When they there not present in, the House—(Cries of No, ' p 0 ! )-1 understood very few n c : thein ; were present,--Ishorild not now have adverted to - 1 Ate,aulajeet.; ~ This, the7.llousb ;wilt redone& ttiolcipllde - al the Wednesdant -, and the attatment tc Whichl allibled .did _pat come befOre tho public tilt Friday ; 'but. forrwhich .1 Jihould not have said otieavMst outthe .insbjee,t.' With res. spect trt-the Hon..Membe foil Aliardeen,Tal Horli"rjead. - 4nd the Noble Lord who had spoken on, this subject with the grant 'to the late Mr), Carining - A very manly and honest feelings,:. and siaid he would support o sfy i 7il d u not a e- reason Hn' A at i . e l Ilyethiershfoourld b b it:it vote i: es ti e vni th;he that,had hint. him, I have a' great respect for Mr...Cunning's talents; but, after the severe remarks made, I found it necessary to vindicate myself;. and I must again assert, that my motives were pure and disinterested for the vote which I gave.--(Cheets• ) Air. SPRING RICE said, if I hesitate in addressing a fewwords to the House, it is because there. are :other Gen tlemen, perhaps not belonging to the class of my Hon, and Gallant Friend, • who may also wish to Make' some Ob servations, and who . may take some objections to what fell from aie ; though I hope I shall be able to - shoSit . that it miscouceptionlas arisen from some tials-statement, or from some m isairpreheosion.. • But before 1 . . reply, it will be _ mere regular' that I:should hear what are these objections, so that I may not reply first to one Gentleman, and then on some other ground to another ; and if so utterly unim portantclaims to 'and e insignificant atte ntio attention of i the a House, asl 1 1 1 o a p n e l ; the ca nHlol have e e will an I hear what I have to say. As it is likely' some. other Gen ' • Gen tlemen may have some observations to make, I shall reserve myself till after those observations are, Made. Mr. LEGH KECK supposed he was one of, the. Gentle men alluded to by the Hon. Member, :and he had a few observations which he thought his duty to himself and the House required him to make. ' Certain suspicions had been thrown on the motives of other Members of Parliament, which he disclaimed. During the long period which he had sat in.the House, and discharged his duties as an indepen dent Member of Parliament, at - no period had lie imputed hie decided admis 1 motive's to individuals,..or said,' with they had given, that - they had acted improperly. - . If' tue o r t e e were any ground for imputation against him for the' v he had given, he was ready to vindicate' that vote ; and he. had never given a vote in that was not prepared' to vindicate. Called on as h . e . had . leer to vindicate himself; he would do so; .for he telt it was a painful—unavoidable duty. He would . preface what he rhadatiottto ofsay ,s l i t r y can declaring ning ; h i a s n u d n h eq e admit that he possessed all : those amiable qualir.ie s his friends assigned him. .. From a very early Perk) :.., of his i political life, and through - a .very long period, he h: i beheld that Statesmen's conduct ,with satisfaction ; 'ancl he felt i as much admiration as any Wan of his splendid e! quence. But as a public inau—and it was : only as a puaiic man ha spoke o f hi m --however much he might hart admired .•..- . . .. . .., :, • unequivocal, re'a.d.y. Mr. Canning's conduct in early life, lie was not able to bestow the S1111f; admiration on its latter part. This he ' , ./ao ready to avosts.ssrfie was astonished that any man ,shoSid say of a Member Of Parliament, acting in the dis charge efifia duty, that he acted from motives which, not only were the assetrion correct, would imply that he was unfit to discharge his duty in that House, but also that he !is,elit to be excluded from the society of gentlemen.— (Hear, hear:)—lle did not know how to explain himself without adverting to the report, and the terms of it, which, as the Honourable and Gallant General who spoke ,fyelOye lion, had justly remarked; seemed to be promulgated by authority.. It was-not for him to refer sir these only iheatis he had of knOwing what had occurred - in that lisins:c ; but it did so happen that lie had not seen the '. statentent alltided to until Saturday. If he were allowed, he would refer to that statement. In the early part of that report, there were only some slight allusions, but the part of which he, spoke was this [here the Hon. Member read the following passage from a More full -re volt of Mr. Spring Race's speech in the ,House of Com mons on Wednesday' evening last, than appeared- in the Morning Paper's of Thursday, and which' was published in the Tunes of last Friday] "Me considered the present likely to lie the - only oppor tunity Elias Would present itself, for he could scarcely ima:' gine, it possible that the opposition, so singular in its cha racter, could be 'conflated ; and lie anticipated that the • Bill in its further : progress would meet the ummimouseps: The opposition to this Bill would have asto nished c p o ro u r n a tr l y o . f the House, es it undoubtedly would that of the hini anywhere ; but in the House of Commons—the thee tie of Mr. Cant itig'e exertions—the field in which his genius displayed itsen and where, during the present Ses sion, men of all parties - hers.' felt the miserable blank wade by his loss ; that in this House tur objection should have been made to a grant like this, was to him a matter of asto eweaer°rnarite nishment, to use no stronger word. But he wished to dis tinguish' the two classes of whom the opponents to tbi a measurehaps thinkco u consisted. themselves v T e s h however deserved, if they considered that the finOc ee .,l 9 h e country would not 'afford such expenditure. In s.:- .., could not concur} for he'could not admit that England rya' in a position in which' the reward of eminent seryiceo In"! be reffieed. Let it not be said, that military glory le a i f i siz in ef r money :in, w a i ig, h . t stf p ait e l r : i death in action were the only events that could call forth and justify national gratitude, Civil worth, -if eminent , belonged to as high a class of exertions, and men tnightd ic ' as Mr. Canning did—for their country, without falling bY the sword. . But, there were economists of another 8 00°1 who objected to this . ,cote —economists of good feeling"; • 'parsons whowished tti` apply retrenchment tosympathY s e !;ratitude, :and who mere:desirous of reducing all gen er°"9 and honourable iitmulseT with them he would hold : " communion, 'and of - them was the minority chiefly eo n ' . posed—discontented agriculturists, who revenged thee!" selves for: the' orn Bill by their vote, and who marked tbr i : disapproval of Mr. Canning's liberal policy by denying Ul4 pittance to his'cliildren." le ice's • [Several passages:of this extract of Mr. Spring e- - speech were cheered, as the Hen. Member read them.] _.,.., Mr. LEGH KE:cli then continued:.-He q uite 4=7 . with that:Gentleman as to the state of our. fiaa na ' . Happily the finances . of- the country were not. so fat r e : . dueed, that the country could not duly reward entine a . ; public services. The Parliament was not only still ena ble ' '' to do so, but the country -required that it should be df' °e ' As to the other. ecele of economy to which allusion "cogs made, he knew not tol:plied made the allegation. 'lle this .not the individual, and he knew not the individuals oP ° were,included in the condemnation of the Hon. Menlo!' He was not one of those who felt themselves aggrieved of this part of the Hon. Member's statements, end' he 'did not apply them to himself. The only gratification he feit at, bringing the subject ; tote the House was derived from hip having that morning r eived a communication from an Hon. Friend Of hi's, to whom it had been communic ated b T e h r o d did o n n o . t Member,ilchrlehi h in e ( fe h l i t r o . s L sn e r g e h d , K i ee n t k o ) n d in ed h i n s o e t t h a in te g by the Hon. M e mber' tin. Limerick, that that Hon. l‘fein nsr but the terms were general, .and he could not sanction goyY sweeping and grievous condemnation, like that of the 1011 ' :bth‘isuei i a g o : l n i o t , Member. : There were ,a, few individuals who, in. the di' - ' charge of their duty, would he precluded by such language': from . sometimes addressing the House. He did not dein, to be `possessed :of the _strongest nerves; but during the number of yezok 'which lie had sat in that Ifou' e '' he bad .witnessed too often, and he thought he . "las: , called on 'by i a. sense . of duty to mention' Members 'were 'deterred from addressing the House, vib_°''.' would otherwise have addressed it with great pfoprieti_T, bY. , 4 '' . the tone Of intimidatimroishich was too frequentlyadO w li L '- i ' (Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member for Limerick Wea - ' i r .. l r . allow him, he wduldiarthat such a tone wail ntitab l "!' prevalent in that aPeech Cof his to which he was alltolinf t''" and there was' ten' riiiieliof that intimidation about It, . which, in 'his opiniOt4 , it 'vas not satisfactory fort' thitiewe • 'to' hear: The Housiessvistrld then allow hirn to etate •the ' : masons why he had kivefi 'his vote on a former' 'evening. 'He had given it becauSe he . did not conceive, from 'tile Parr' - Mr. Canning had latterly taken, that he had s ' u ch - en un - ..' compromising claim ti-bis admiration as at the previn° period of his political life. He regretted this, but it ton: . his sincere opinion.—(Hear, hear.) He was not induce'`";' to give his vote from economy nor from any base a naedises . honest motive. It was due, he thought, in considering th e ' merits of Mr.' Canning, nisi, to consider the circumstanc es 'of the Comitry ; and'einasidering these things, he decitrt d ' - he had dissented frOM the proposition. These were the it, that, IA plain, undisguised 'oPinions, on which he had given his vote. ' He had never concealed the grounds of his decision ; .and however painful it was for him to declare them, under' : the circumstances of the case he was bound to do so. As be had now acted, so-`he should act on another sira i L ar occasion, though if *add he, as on this, with - OW' ea' regret. The Hon: Member concluded by apolOgieink f 7 d r . . addressing the House,' and said, he hoped , he' ' sli °u . • ' iiiiliir never again be called on to address them under's. - circumstances. - - . • , _ , Mr. S. RICE thanked the Hon. Member sliw the e''',77 her in vs , Aich he had ,made his statement, and should, he hoped, satisfactorily reply , to his observations. And first, ' - he must express his regret; that any thing he might have said should have been mixed up with a' s question of this de licacy and personal' interest. He wished that any . o f a n c i,n3 4l Gentleman,' hieing: any: Objection to make to holy: ', he els: made it to himself ahmeoeithout mixing it up with . " discussion of strehu queition as this. If there had be o 70 - 1 'any 'Mame' in . the 'affairy Ht should rest exclusively '4 11 ,4 4 27 „ 5e:1 413, g tirely on- him, anal not , attach to the question trethl:le tu7 ‘„ 16 <l , .Ilimie. :There Might'' . be Some irregularity in : the. In t ", : ,;; Jb ' 4l ` v- i ubh e roee si td ‘ hg :f ht,du il p i sd l t i i:, ;C :fe fli totli r. „,oc g e ;:cit use n nt p; ,t a t i rey n hv e eet d nh , ne htt b hees e o ca tsuiamg u idh s o e ntie,y h va e if-age t i i r 7,, ;; o;d::::::n..:,: isee.dingi whialilluid takeli‘Place on this subject - f-5k, 1161 4 s 'b s vr auti4sl.l • shear)s.-but - iierejOiced - thats the Hon. Gentlemalhar rei ' ' -- i" 6,, krietir the," full athotuit ottlie charge against bins; t :„,d, 1 . 14 ' ' 5. : a1° , 4 4 1"1 - questions which called . _ -forth asperity, to avoids:mir, te r;:7' \ .: :which Could` hurt arlysindialidual, much less any-dal, ~u .- • .. o ; . ',- individuals -in that HMIS& The House would inv` v ""` him to recall to it the circumstances of this case. it '"„„_,,,,. , happened that • on that :night -a Noble Lord bad' Oa t !' ,, ---- , that his objection to the - vote did not arise in any de gree from economical principles, but specifically fil' a ",,, Al his. dislike to -, the principles of Mr. Canning. .: Re (Is ll.- ' I V 2 : Spring Rice) then separated the opposition into two , daises,' and stated that. an objection might be made in' the ;,,,,. vote on the ground of economy, or if it was thou the finances-of the' country, Would not bear such a hardefYlsalids or it might be objected to.upon constitutional geount" -:: tent Many might object to the precedent, without objecting to .n s the end of the grant or to r the: policy of Mr. CatiningH-t .7 .4 ' 'Ake) considered These reasons he' (Mr.lSs. to form a 'Pe - : cific,ground of objection distinct front others. :This was' , . 7 : 1 1 nut imputing motives; but distinguishing the classes o f op- • intment he had felt at what had. occurred' , .."?' position,. that Of the Noble Lord being connected thought i t personal character: Of Mr.- Canning. There had not been :Which he was not ready to re-etatain as - ; is a single word : Xead .. by the Hon. Member, o to n the that e z a d o i i si on ppn i strong a manner. With respect to the second clasp, .Could - , :1 the lion. Member think that he (Mr. S. Rice) threw' out, or intended • to - throwsitit; a reflection upon the .agricul- '' ,, ._7 turalintereat? This was what he (Mr. S. Rice) under stood he implied. .Why; it! was the very class to which he (Mrj S. Rice) belonged, which he respected; 'adenoid .4j; with refe;ethntheacte7 tlal4 have no possible rnotive'evhatever to disparage; arid:if lie l'i had, there never was a time in which that , class Mere - , -3 nobly conducted themselves than on that occasion. He ' appealed to the examole of the Hon. Bart. the Member fur ' Somerset (Sir:T. Lethbridge) who said that although he lo ssi objected to Mr.' Canning's policy, he felt it due to hi esset ,,cf genius and his talents to give his entire concurrence in Hit -,. 1 , ,i, vot e, which was an act of gratitude for the brilliant ser vices of that great man.—(Bear. )_Vas it to be believed ns ,he that 1,,, (Mr. , s . Rice) ill 'the face of• that deeistratinnii s`;:. to so made,. should select that moment to cause irritation by ;ad attack on the agricultural body? He never made any no ,i,n‘. I such thing, and he -was truly sorry that such a misappteetir lo j pension should havearieen. ' -But it might be seid s "If yen AH 1,., did not meam that, what did you mean ?".--(Hear.)—The Hon: Metriber had referred to past debates, and if he did so t00,.-the. fault teas not his; he (Mr. S. Rice) was !la thrown upoir his defence ; and must avail himettlf of every legitimate Means of resistance. He had not heard the t_ • : speech to which he - now alluded when it took place; which saf enabled him to discuss it with more composure. Ile (Bid S. Rice) hid not the honour of being a friend or connftioa POI*I ICW AA,Et ~~~~(f@l !