The Sun. — London, England, 1819-07-02 00:00:00

pi' bs the 0- eta Lb ° 165 do' (10. 1.4 fi t detive<l I • from the mode of .vqting by , bal= the ,As to the frequency of the exercise of tit e lective franchise, lfe''inust admit t h at ate trete 'some powerful reasons lit 'favour e el "' Speaking from his own, experience, he s u lt saY that h e reg arded the hustings, with st , i t ' i !e_ jollity n d a buse which pr . evailed at j f i -eleetions as e that hi which he bad been him ' l e i e nneerned as an excellent ordeal for the can -1,,(,,„ test "•—•.(Hear hear, and laughterl)—At the ie . e " time he would be contented with a triennial h e tenee of such s c e nes, and would not wish to s e 4 "uallv mud-b e spattered ; and whets he saw e,,, 131 .'er Hon. Gentl e man, not now a Member of House, but who might at sonic time hereafter e, ""e a seat in it, w h o h a d no t been whOlly free • Nutoch a b uses, h e wou ld b e h app y w i t h hint to 4 11 iSe the people who had bestowed upon him a memento of their denial.—(Hear, hear!)-- . "e two point s be considered as the most on tr ti ain o f t h ose wh i ch ha d b een so o f ten diSess ,all th e su bj ect of Parliamentary Reform. But 't ulle be admitted that they required some reform, mutt gnarl himself against being supposed e b e nuaider reform as a grand panacea for all the s e 4a es in the coundy, like the Honourable Ba *ntl, wh o t h oug h t that a Parliamentary Reform e i ld procure all the benefits, and remove all tl e ,, "Us. in the country ; that it would:bring st " e,uuntry into that desirable state which wonld le e , :, 4 the praise bestowed by Fodesche in his ti be by enabling the people " to wear woollen rh o" and drink no water." At the same dine he 11; I ght that a moderate, rational, and practical th - • 41 : 111 sv'ould do much good. It might check ttukheceatroep7 of sprnirisitclotifecf-onitte`nytnatinitdi ssaptriesatadet Itohlll.owurtihi ', r e a l ' . "-dell to which they hail so long been a ; t i l e rs He found he bad imposed on himself be t - ' Ol task io endeavouring, to draw a line of lie !bor e w ild an d v i s ionary Reformers. But te e i e 'Ped be had done it intelligibly, and that s t l - f"nuse would see that there was between him vo,,,nd those who now stood forward as the most dis ent advocates of Reform a broader line of Qf e tion than subsisted between any other class vri t r 'i ,t '" ti iejans. There was only, one other remark ' 4 3 which be would trouble the House.. What e til ight be the reception which this motion iti wi th —whether it should agree to any plan for• it..... k.°111 which might be proposed, or should t e ject t edi lt dllie must always consider it as the represen the.peeple—as on e of the great branches tegislat ure—and iu discussing topics of t o rt k ind lie might use any strong language ifs de bt. i ng what he conceived to he abuses, at least (14 1 " d not do so from any feeling of disrespect. e ar, hear %re le G N REVELL said be did not often wish to sted 4 ','e the House with any 'of his sentiments, g.brit he did not now mean to follow the Hon. ite,Tliet through his whole speech ; hut as the ~Jet•ettis one which, especially of -late years, et i beeotne of mulch imperance,•and as he had et e " voted u p on it. and bitherio',hed . always e ,, 11 a silent voce upon it, be hoped:he ;Would e i Veused for declaring his opinion upon it. The ate, p le , e t had already been repeatedly so anip!y and ta t '',.,'n'eussed in the House and in various publi -164-tilts! that he did not expect to be able to say new upon it, or to ptit the arguments the better light than they had hitherto been ; but tr o) : 1°11 . Gentleman observed that he was one of k -e who saw in the practical effects of our pre itslratern of representation much radical good. Il bri t i nn " also say that he had no faith in the wisa vuea-t,f teeny of those who called themselves ad set es of P ar li a mentary Reform. In this cen lh eh , l did not by any means wish to include all Iti e t s ~b u cates of reform. Without going out of did a Y to impute improper motives (though be ti et n his consciente believe that improper mo ttotsitnigla be dilly imputed to them), hs could va a ", eI P saying, that if all that they wished teei," ll e, it would only give them an oppore %lel of tryirio their bands on experiments 'ter e ,, e r Ought never to be made, and which th e put to hazard all that was valuable in C ,nuslitution.—(l-lear, hear !)•—lt was not Wl t -Pln iun hastily adopted which he expressed koe n h ad said that our present representation was tied " save a greater practical degree of liberty hae s : ec ultity both as to person and property than Itt et ; v er been attained in any country in the same 1 4-4 1 °F society. lint having said this, lie must li ce * a wed to express some doubt whether in prac -444Y great cbatlge - in our system would pro aYst g(4 " ) d• At the same time he must admit our e a .i 4 e rn had some blemishes. Time, which bad tt "i t up, lied also brought with it some abuses. it the, . Only „sort of proposition for . Reform' to "eleeti he could listen, was one which should 4 ( 4 . 1 Rhine OM the defect blemish to be.cor ktes: L and plainly show the remedy intended. To fer, th 7 e " Proposition he would be among the most ball 7 1 ,1 " to propose a serious consideration. He • th r 6 °4 4; tho ug h t. th a t the influence of the Crown ife e :l 4i i•ntit , , the country, and especially in this -w,es too great, and that it would he an es '" a: jge'if it'were diminished. , The House • • :2ct the resolutions passed in 1780 on the tots, • bf fir, Donning, afterwards Lord Ashbur trowvniell4et forth that the influence of the to.b... 4llo dinareased, was increasing, and ought lett.'.ol,ritinished. He begged the House to recol hat tied taken lace since the period when Vi b e resolutions were agreed to. The National lioe t . ruad 'increased from 120 millions. to 801) mil teseo, , 17 ith thi s in cr e ase , t h ere h a d b een a cot ' Chf lier nnug increase of taxation and of all the ma eorsesY l l 'eeessnry to enforce it. All this gave a P"ding increase .to the patronage and in tiairv'e of th e C rown. Therefore, if, its 1780, the eeljusie hadtt lt -dnuebt it necessary to pass the re width lie h a d ment i o n e d, - how much chili was th e occas i on for diminish i ng thein ftitili_ of the Crown note . But the Radical Re s tea, es went notch - farther t h an thi s and there te pi . l . lll l remark a bl e i n a l l their plans, that no 4 10 7 -0 f them were agreed upon a plan of general their plaits tots were. I'veroj: ( • 111 ! n g these opinions,, he could not but e (4110 ..otnasent from th e p resent tno: i on, , an d h e t e, ; _ n t do it a better w a y titan by moving tu v. :: lie other orders of the day be now read , " .ill Feat 1 ) the . '.," ti aNEY entered i n t o an hi stor i ca l rev i ew %;unstitution of Parliament, consistiug ode ginally int.Knights,of the Shire-and Burgesses, the Representatives of tenants in burgage tenure, He inferred, that if Representatives were returned to - Parliarnent . by divisions of country,- according to a geographical division, as had been proposed by certain Reformens, the_ consequence would he, that -all the representation would be Vested so far in the landed interest excinsively., He considered there existed abroad very unjust prejudices on the sobject. All these objectioes would, he thought, be deadened, should Parliament provide, that in all cases where places or boroughs should he dis franchised (Or corruntion:the House should direct writs to he issued to one of the large towns, such as Manchester, Birmingham . , or Leeds, so as to invest =them with the franchise dins forfeited. Sir IL XVILSON said, his only. objection to the motion of the Honourable Baronet was the time at which it was brought forward. At so late a period of the Session many persons were absent, not. expecting that so importaet a measure would be now brought forward. The Honourable fiarn net had stated his reason for his delay. He bad allowed those whom he must call the Economists to try their strength. lint the : llouourable Baro net' was certainly right in saying that they had been defeated. The campaign was ended without any success. They had - been beaten on every point—tine Lords ot the Admiralty—the Wei. Office—the Colonial Department,--:hey had been repulsed from them all, without gaining the least advantage.—They bad not bean able even to wrest a single snuff-box front the Noble Lord. As to the necessity of Reform, he observed, that when out of the 6-S0 members of the House, the noun ! hers returned by the Crown and the Nobility were deducted, the tot al number that could he considered as really Representatives of the. peo ple was only 171. On the whole, therefore, he thought the Honourable Baronet had shown the necessity of some Reform, and that this was a seasonable time for undertaking it.— He should not anticipate the objections which might be made to the proposal of the Honour able Baronet when its details came to he con sidered. But there were ; two objections which he would now notice. One of these Was, that ours -was a mixed Constitotion, of King, Lords, anti Commons, and not a Commonweelth.— Bet he contended that this was as much as to say, that the Constitution, as settled by our ancestors, .was not that which we nugli - to adopt. Another objection was, that the present House of Com mons was, upon the whole, a good representation of the people:` But he ntutli say, th a n t hose M e m.. bees put into,; the House by Patrons must have distinct views and interests from those of the ge nuine representetives of the people. To this cause the people aseribed the greatest of ell the irresponsibility of Ministers. Another sort of R dormers- were those who resisted every ;pro posal for •Reform, unless a distinct - plan was brought forward. An Hon. 7deinber (Mr..Gren fell) was of this eitss. But that Hon. Member had never supported ,any of the vat ions plans which had been brought forward even in this Session. This class of Petitioners were like a Trustee, who, being bound to keep an edifice in repair, refused to.do so on the complaints of the heir, unless a plans was proposed ; trod yet when a plan was proposed—though by Nash, or Smnrke, or Wyatt-thoogli of the most ueexcep tionable kind, would always oppose it, one being too Grecian, -another too Gothicone too ancient, another too modern.. In short, it was impossible to please such men. They were like the soldier, who, when he was flogged, complained that the drummer struck too high—then that he struck too low--,-and,.'lastly,_ that he struck in 'the middle.— On the whole, he thought that the House, injus tice to a complaining country, could not refuse to accede to , . this propOsal, which - "at least held out the hope of Reform. Mr. WtestoT opposed the motion. He did not think that the Hon. Baronet had, on this occa sion. brought forward the measure in a way that Made - it • less objectionable than formerly. He could not hut connect this motion with the, meet! ings which were held in various parts of the coun try, and which he could not describe as other than seditious. It was when such motions as 'lris were rejected by the House, that at these meetings the House was said to be any thing but a representa tion of the people—that it ,s as the source of all our evils. For himself, he could not but cordially approve of the measures which had been adopted by the House for the punishment of. those who had abused the elective Iranchise by bribery and corrup tion. But it was not any such Reform that the Hon. Baronet wished, and, when it was effected, he re fused to take any part in the work. The Hon. Baronet liked lo go further heck, and say, that,. in the present days, we had degenerated from the constitutional purity of our ancestors. To show that in these ancient times, to which the Hon. Baronet was always appealing, tine liberties of the subject were wholly disregarded, it was only ne cessary to refer to the addreSs of Richard 11. to the villeins of Essex, at the time of tVat Tyler's insurrection, in which it was said, " villeni fuistis —villeni- manebitis, non ut hactenus. set) 'etiam viiieres." As to the degree of Misery which ex ed throughout tit e country,he thought the wisdom of the House would be able to devise a remedy, But hetcould not connect any such. remedy with any project for ;dorm. In tine regulation of the Poor. Laws, a very great step would .he made to wards providing a remedy for this misery. Some thing might' also be done by emigration to British Colonies. 'lt was certainly very strange that no Member could be found exactly to agree with .the Hon. Baronet. If any plan was really brought forward, then the House might be able to decide upon it. He concluded by quoting a passage from a speech 'by Mr. Fox, which he thought a decisive authority against this motion. Mr. Alderman WooD, said -the argument against taking away the elective franchise from rotten bo roughs, was that it would be taking, away the rights of certain personi. -But be could not think there was any force in this reason, because it was not desired•to take away the rights of those per sons,. but only to admit others.to share in them. And b,e could . not .think that the value of those rights was diminished by extending them. For himself, as,a•Member of the City of London,• he had 1.2,000 constjtuents,, and 'he was sure they would not think theiCrights lesi valuable if - 12 - ,000 more of the-people were admitted to share in thew, Some 00Jeciiorks ha 4 been trade as to the time when this motion :was. brought forward, and lie could not hut feel sorry that it - _had not been sooner brought forward. Ile had lioped that some of the 1 - lon,Mernbers on his siie of the 11 ouse would !rare brought forward a motion for reform at an earlier period of the Session ; knowing that there were so many of,his Lio - nourable Friends of greater ability than himself, he bad not brought forward any proposition himself, though lie was one of the ‘varmest friends' of reform. Mr". WILLIAtus said, it must be admitted that in the present state of things.Nve enjoyed many advantages and blessings. But the 'question was not whether we did not enjoy many blessings,but whether we might not enj,,y a still greater degree of th,)se blessings. With this \ - iew, the Hon. Member, after various remarks on the necessity of reform, concluded by expressing his issent. to the motion. Mr. Alderman WeiTumee, after some general remarks, and dwelling on, as he couteived, the present state of the Constitution, affirmed that tine time predicted by Hume was nearly arrived, when by the pressure of taxes we would not he enabled to pay the interest of the National Debt. The Government of the Country would then 'be in the most imminent danger. Whet would save us from that menaced ruin ?—Nothing but a 'Perna mentery Reform. Gentlemen were afraid to begin this laudable work ; abuses were so numerous that they knew not where to tottch them without endangering the whole system of corrupt ion . Gentlemen talked of great authorities : all the great authorities recommended roost earnestly Parliamentary Reform, as the only salvation for our Government and the Constitution. Look at all the great authorities, from Locke down to Fox, ail urging, with the tone of patriotic ri valry, Parliamentary Reform. Mr. Fox, on.every occasion, was uncommonly solici - ous for that sa lutary measure. He was anxiously .prominent on the subject, that he might he called the Cham pion of Reform. Mr. 'Burke, will that ex traordinary penetration which he possessed., foresaw. the most serious 'mischief without a Parliemeroary Reform. In the finest passages of his works, he speaks of Reformation as our vital principle for salvation. These could not be said to be small or trifling authorities. Better any excess le some other . way eleara . theeoetien7 ante of the, persent corrupt system. - In -these days, it was thought a fine thing, indeed, if the House of Commons granted a - Committee of In quiry into Economy and Abuses. Silt what 'fol lowed ? The Report. of that Committee would state, efeainst truth and justice; ;hat Retrench ment would speedily he adopted,but that after due investieation they had found that there were no abuses ! The House" of Commons ought to e st.ct ' With more consistency and' hontsur: 4-e- 7 .Vas the great ()eviler between the privileges of the taco, pie and - the prerogative. ofelie Crown. If Mem- bets of Parliament did not pay -more attention to the wishes of their ConStiteents, to the voice of the people, the latter would. lose their respect far the former. Gentlemen ought to take an active part in support of the liberties of the peo ple. The great Work was not to be accomplished by long speeches !—(Hear, hear T. and loud lenteliter . , in 'allusion to the length of the worthy Alderman's speech.)--Recovering himself from the embarrassment of the interruption, the lion. Member expressed himself very gratefel fie` the pause produced by the ludicrous interference of the' House, , It was . u great relief to hint. But while .he acknowledged the kind indulgence of the HOuse in favouring him with' So much of their time; 'he was apprehensive 'that he might have encroechett too mach upon their patienceee--(Hear, hear.)---He beteged, however, to assure them, that he would ClaiM their attention for a very sew minutes longer.' Towards the immediate com mencement of Reform;the Members should begin to reform themselves. Such a happy change would be the most sincere pledge to the people. All candidates at elections' matte semeterfel pro fessions to the people 3 but these professions tht y generally forgot as soon as renamed to Parlia ment. They professed strong attachment to the Constitution. The best proof would be to put heart and hand to, the laudable mea sure of Parliamentary Reform. It is a chief part of the Coestitlition to have a free repre sentation in Parliament. How could the repre sentation be said to be. free, when it seas en der the control of the GovernMent or of the great landed proprietors. Ayelornefrom men of this description was not very likely to take place. But better consent to e Reform than pet every ,thing to the hazard. Some, however, would save 0, it you sutler the people to dictate to their ile preSentatiVese-a you 'indulge them in their fa vourite measure of Reform, you will overthrow the Government amid destroy the Constitution ! Such a Constitution lie would despise, as a thing unworthy of his regard. That was not the Con stitotion for which our ancestors freight and bledl The Hoe. Member concluded by .again most earnestly recommending eetorm within doors before the people began it without. As he did not, by a negative to eefortri, wish to put 'every thiug dear to us to the hazard, be should vote for the motion of the Hon. Baronet. GRRNFRLL and Mr. Wfiesiof severally ex plained. :Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) opposed the motion,. but would not discuss the subject. Helm Worthy Alderman (Wood) could procure for laito an au-. (Hence from the 12,000 electors of •the City` of London, he had no doubt hut he. could she w them very clearly that they were, very wrong, in their wishes far ParliamenCary Reform. Hen, Mem bers could 'not employ their time better than by attending Meetings convened for the purpose of discussing this subject, and there . point out to the people their errors reed the delusions that were attempted to- be practised upon them. By th is means•they•would Soon beat the Reformers Out of the field, aed be raised in triumph on the people's shoulderit Mr-Iltites said, his constituents were friendly, like all the people of Secitland, to a moderate Reforms); He would therefore support the *potion, as it pledged ehellotise to no precise measure. Mr. Beatip,,(we believe) . said, that ,althongh a friend to 'Parliamentary Reform, he was very far from 'entertaining those' wild' notiOns which had thrown discredit do ante - subject. He remarked, that Mr. Pitt. was favnnrable to a Reform - in the mode of representing the people—that Statesman's plan was to set aside a sum of money, for the purpose of accumulating, until it amounted 'to so large a sum as to induce the proprietors of bo roughs to consent to this disfranchisement. The present question was one which he thought might safely be enterta;ned ; be therefore should vote for it.. Mr. PETER MoottE would also vote for the mo tion, thinking it requisite for the Preservatitm of tranquillity • among Itte people. He telt much obliged to the Hon: Baronet for 'bringing it for ward, and hoped that the same motion would be continued to be submitted every Session; until Ministers were compelled to take some step upon the subject. M. tENNYSON did not concur 'with those who thought the representation of the people in the best •possible condition, but apprehended much dangsr . fiorn general reform, He was, however, on tbat.account more,anxious to take advantage of incidfortal opportnnities, and thought the House would have pursued a mote constitutional and effi cient course, if Boroughs w ich proved ro be cur rtipt were disfranchised, and the right transferred to the Counties or • large unrepresented Towns. Mr. Pitt, in 1733, b•itl suggestid this course, 'but failed in consequence of nis burin! , mixed up something objectionable with his proposal. With bis .(Mr. rs.) moderate and limited views on the subject, he could not accede to the present tun tion, which waf.z plainly designed to ph clg , the House to some measure of general reform—but he 21!OUld sit all times, anxiously support the due and most effectual application of .all means of t*ortn---castialiy occurring, and w! , ich though partial in immediate opera,ion, might gradually tend to a complete renovation of the Constitution. Lord J. RusseLt. was frien•lly, he said, to a transfer of the elective .franchise from those Bo- Hroughs in which corruption %vas !•rove‘ to exist.--- He was friendly also- to triennial Parliaments, but be would not support the r resent motion, because it would pledge the House • to .enquire next Ses sion•into the general state of the Representation, and thereby tend to throw a slur itpon the whole Representative system of-Ole-country.. lithe Ho nottrable Baronet (Sir.F..BOrdett) did not know, as he stated, what was meant - by visionary' and npvel schemes, he would refer.hiin tti - lituse per sons for an explanation, who advised hitrt,to come flown lasi Sessi66, and make a motion for Annual • Parliaments and Universal Suffrage., Mr. fitiroutxsoN supported the motion, hbit he. would not pledge hi:nself to any particular plan oißeform. conviction was, that the people were not honestly., fairly, ni7r fully terwtMed. •• Mr. BY SG would not. 1),C.; deterred from sup porting the 'question, abbongh it had been pro posed by an Hon. Baronet who had done till cause much injury by separating himself from_ the aristocracy, for• wit hoot the assistance of the Gen tlemen of the country, .no great question could be expected to meet with success. .'Sli.r.l3t/RDET - r replied. If be could have sly posed that the mischievous consequences mei:- tionetrby the Noble Lard would arise from the motion which he proposed, he would not' Irmg it forty td: ' but, confident. as he felt that lie dim would-meet with the concurrence, at no distai:t. period, of the great portion of the inhabitants of thi'S Cothitiy, he trusted that the division of the House would stew what its feelings were= oh that . important subject. It was in vain to attempt to hide the subject, it was too prominent, all were aware of the- Means which were made•use of to obtain seats in the House by‘many Members. The practicability of. his motion had been spoken of.: he would therefore observe, that what he desired was a Reform, so as to have a representation of the people sufticier,t to restrain- 111 e Minislyst when an unconstitutional .measure should be prof posed. The House divided on the amendment, that the other Orders.Ot the Day•be'then read— Ayes 153 Noe's 53 Majority - , . -95. The third reading of the Welch Game Bill was postponed till to-morrow. The third reading of the New Forest Bill was a l s o postponed till to.morrow. • The Slave Registry Bill . was read a third time, and passed. The Newlerest Bill was read a third time, and passed. DISSENTERS' MARRIAGE BILL. On the gneition that the Dissenters' Marriage Bill be coniniit'ted, IiOId.CASTLBREAG I N said, that if it was only in. tended to till up the blanks, he would not object to going into the Committee ; but irthe 13111 was to be passed to its completiou, he should feel disposed to follow a different course. The measure was of great -importance, and had been introduced at so late a pet iod, that he wished its f►►rther considera tion shOtild be postponed to the next Session. Mr. W. Smilli explained anew ,the - nature of his Bill. fie had not intended merely to fill up the blanks in the CoMmittee, but to forward tli meastire. lie shonld, hciivever, adopt the sug gestion of. the Noble Lord, and waive the Bill for the present,, .with the view of renewing it next Session. After a few remarks from Dr. PiIILLIMOER and Sir J. MACKINTOSH, the Bill was ordered to be committed this.dav three weeks. The Irish Still Fines Bill was read a third time and passed. The King's Personal Property, and the Annual. Accotu Bills. w: re read.a third time and passed. Mr. WILBERFORCE moved for Copies or Ex tracts of such Acconnts'as had been received front the West India ettionies since 1807, showing:thq increase and decrease of Slaves, and of the .free population.—Ordered. The other. Orders of the Day were then pro. ceeded in, li`nd at Twelve o'Clock the' House ad. ! journed. LAW.—Nothing interesting occurred yester. day.---41,4 the. Wettminster beSSIICUIS, some cases of pssault.were none, of (been were at all important. A- respectable .Gentletnan in Ayr .has jitst,ye ceiven informa►ion that his brother in,Jatuaica hat lately the -singli'llar felicity- to entertain fotty-onc Gentlemen at dinner, .in celebration of the ft/nit:at year of their residence on the island.