The Sun. — London, England, 1841-08-27 00:00:00

MORNING StrN ural population.—(Loud cheers.) And even if they did find employment for the agricultural population, it would be unjust t o fi n d emp l o y men t f or th e m by such a mea sure.—(Cheers.) lie trusted they would have a debate on that question, and would not so far insult the country as to overlook those great interests on the present occa sion. -(Cheers.) People would say that the Right Hon. Baronet had given directions to his party not to say ono word except as to the want of confidence. They would say, that at the political assembly which, according to the Times newspaper, was held at the Right Hon. Baronet's residence on Sunday last, he knew not whether during hours of Divine service—(A laugh)—Hon. Members had employed themselves in devising some scheme to give the country no information whatever on these important subjects, and to keep the great interests of:the country in ignorance as to their future intentions. He stood there as no party man,--(Cheers and laughter from the Tory Benches.) lie repeated he was no party man, and had proved it by his conduct.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) But he would tell Honourable Gentlemen, oppo site that they would be wanting in respect to the country if they did not allude to those great questions of the. Corn-laws, and the commercial tariff by the opeiation of which the commercial classes of the country were pressed cloWn to the earth.—(Loud cheering.) When he looked at llon. Gentlemen oppo site with, many of whom he was acquainted, for many of whom he felt a regard, and many of whom, he knew to be men of honest intentions, he could not but regret to hear the sneers with which last night many of the very important statements of his Iron. Friend the Mem ber for Stockport had been met by Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He regretted to hear the quotations from Scripture which that Hen. Gentleman had introduced into his speech alluded to in the contemptuous manner in which they had been by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side the House. lie for onesthought that Scripture quotations should not be introduced unadvisedly into the discussion of political and financial questions, but a precedent for the introduction of Scripture quotations had been set by the other side of the House. —(Cheers.) What would they say when they heard that the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Dorchester had actually quoted Scripture in support of the Corn laws?—(Loud cheers). At a dinner which that Right Hon. Baronet had given to his constituents at Dorchester, he had actually quoted the Old Testament to show that the sliding scale had a Scripture foundation, because it was as near an approximation as possible to a total pro hibition. The Right Hon. Baronet had told his consti tuents that he could not entertain any doubt but that passage had been written for their instruction.—(Loud cheers.) After that he trusted Hon. Gentlemen oppo site would say no more about the impropriety of quoting Scripture on the subject of the Corn-laws.—(Cheers.) But Hon. Gentlemen opposite were themseves guilty of every crime which they laid to the charge of men on his (Mr. Gibson's) side of the House. They were agitators, Witness the agitation at Exeter Hall—(Cheers)—wit ness their agitation against education—witness the agi tation for church extension carried on under the guidance of his Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Ox ford.—(Cheers.) All 'he regretted was that the agita tion of Gentlemen on his side of the House in favour of commercial reform had not been so successful as the agi tation of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. It had, however, been successful to a considerable extent.—(Ministerial cheers.) The llon. Member for Maidstone had boasted that his party had increased its numbers during the recent elec tions, while that of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had diminished. But if the party of the Noble Lord had diminished, the .Anti-Corn-law party had increased, and so far the dissolution had succeeded ; and all they wanted was time and agitation and the dis • Gemination of the writings of such men as Dr. Chalmers and the Rev. Baptist Noel—(Hear, hear)—all they wants was to spread abroad such writings, and to appeal to the geed sense and feeling of the people, and he was certain that the Corn-laws or the bread-tax, as it was called by his lion. Friend the Member for Stockport, would raise an opposition similar to that which had led to a repeal of nesrio slavery. Hon. Gentlemen opposite bad formerly said that slavery was for the advantage of the negroes, as they now said that a scarcity of food was for the advantage of the consumers of food.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) But he was persuaded that the people of England were not to be deluded by such a fallacy. The Corn-laws, they might depend upon it, must be repealed ; they were inconsistent with the first principles of justice, and they must fail. The Noble Lord the "Wernher for Liverpool had al luded to our trade'swith the Brazils. Now. it should be remembered , that our treaty with the Brazils would soon come to a conclusion ; and at the present moment the Brazilian Government levied a duty of 20 per cent. upon our 'manufactures, while we imposed a duty of 30 per cent. upon their sugar. It could •hardly be expecte - I that our relations with that country could long continue in such a state. The Noble Lord the Member foi• Liverpool must be aware that a very con siderable portion of the revenue was derived from the sugar duties, and thitt the consumption of sugar in this country, per head, was now less than it had been forty years ago. lie must also be aware that while an im mense quantity of Brazilian :stlar was now lying in bond in Liverpool, many manin:cturers engaged in the Brazilian trade were obliged to ceasd ,working, because they could not longer invest their capital in dead stock lying in bonded warehouses. Now, what excuse could there be for keeping sugar in bonded warehouses, while the revenue was declining and our people were suffering from a want of that necessary of life ? Its value Was 2d. per pound, while they placed upon it a duty of 71-d., for the purpose of preventing its being used. They allowed it to be sent out to the blacks of Jamaica and to other ,countries, while they refused to their own popu- Jatton lit pome the ad 46mtweal,r amount . 7' - Their justification would not be found in a desire to consult for the interest of the.negroos, for he ventured to say that it would not be for the disadvantage of the negroes that the cultivation of sugar should cease altogether. The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool had said that the West,lndia Colonists were placed in a very peculiar and unprecedented position in consequence of the passing of the Emancipation Act; and therefore it would not be advisable to tamper with the laws regulat ing our trade with these colonies. But the Noble Lord could merely allege that in consequence of the Emanci pation Act the cost of producing sugar in Jamaica had increased. The proposition, however, of the Govern ment would give a protection to the West India producers far more than equivalent to that increased cost of produc tion. There was an end, therefore, of that objection ; and he was utterly at a loss to know upon what principle the proposition of the Noble Lord could be justified. The Hon. Member then concluded amidst the cheers of the Ministerial party, by thanking the House for the atten tion it had given him. Mr. BORTHWICK said the question before the House wee. not one of corn, timber, or sugar, but who could pro pound those questions with any chance of bringing them to a 'practical issue. If the Government went into the question it would not be able to propose measures to the House with any chance of success. But he should be ' prepared on a future occasion to show that there was no connection whatever between the Corn-laws and the dis tress which existed in the agricultural and manufacturing district s ; th at ,whether the protection afforded to agri culture was that of 4 fixed duty or a sliding scale, in re ality it had no conne'Cl"son whatever with commercial dis tress. The Hon. Membk:7 for Bath had stated that her Majesty's Government had brown unpopular in the coun try because they had not advanced in what he called libe rality. If that were the case, () L eo might have thought that the result of the elections would have been to in crease the extreme section of Liberals; instead of filling the benches on that (the Opposition) side of the House. lie admitted that the first practical result 7thich should follow the decision of the House on the quotions now before it must necessarily be the determining,' of who should in future govern this great country. 1 - te said who, in.reference to the two sides of the House, not in reference to any two sections of individuals in that Pions°. Many complaints issued from Hon. Gentlemen op p osite, because the Right Hon. Baronet , the Member for Tam worth, had not announced to them his purposes, sup , posing that her Majesty called the Right Hon. Gentleman to her councils. It would be, in his opinion, a great in decency on' the part of the Right Hon. Baronet to rise up and offer his services to the Crown, as if setting them up to auction, He would not sit down without saying, in respect to Ireland, that he hoped, whatever Govern ment was formed, it would turn its attention to conciliate the people of that country, and to do justice to all par ties, without distinction of Catholic or Protestant. He had seen in the north of Spain that the Catholic religion was capable of producing the best moral effects, and if in Ireland the priests abused the influence of the sacred office, they ought to be punished in their civil, not in their ecclesiastical character. He would vote for the amend ment, in order that the country might have a Govern ment capable of giving full effect to useful measures. Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the course adopted by Hon. Gentlemen opposite only shows that they felt themselves worsted in the discussion of the important questions re ferred to in the Speech, and were eager to walk into office, upon their votes alone. In the whole of his public life he had never seen a more pitiful course than that which had been pursued by Conservative statesmen for the last three months.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet said he would not give an opinion until he had received his fee. Such an argument might very pro perly be applied to a game at chess ; but he thought that, as a Member of that House, interested in the public welfare, the Hon. Baronet was bound to do all in his power to sustain the. commercial character of this country.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member who had moved the amendment had complained that the Whig Govern ment had not fulfilled the promises given by Lord Grey in 1330, of peace, retrenchment, and reform. He would say one word with respect so economy. Had the reproach on that subject come from the late Hon. Member for Kil kenny, it would have come with weight; but in his opinion it ill became those who had always stimulated the Go vernm ant to an increased expenditure, to come forward with such a charge.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had condemned the conduct pursued with respect to China. It was well known that the policy of the Go vernment with respect to that country had received the approbation of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite.—(Hear, hear.) Then again - with respect to the affair of Mr. M‘Leod, that, which also had been made a subject of reproach, he thought the course pursued by some lion. Members was equally to be regretted. If it were necessary to assert the rights of this country, he (Mr. S. O'Brien) would render as warm support to the Hon. Baronet as to the present Government, but he thought it was greatly to be deplored that an affair of that nature should ever have been viewed in the light of party. With respect t o t h e bl ame t h at ha d b een attac h e d to the Governme n t for not acting up to that which they pro t. k ssfti ?le: %A only to say that since 1835, they had broue-f e 'reward three measures for the purpose of car rying • vle onitathluierise.ct_of appropriation which they had in press his vitartuileMember, he felt that he ought to ex course of policy thethhe present Government for the They had geeeniedY had pursued in Ireland.—(Hear.) that country in the only way in which it could be properly governed—namely, upon an equal footing with England.—(Heare) In all their appointments of the exeentive of that county, they had selected men eminently qualified to fill their stations, and, but for the law, with respect to Chtholics, a most , excellent and worthy man would have now been 'the Chancellor of Ireland. In stating what he had done, he did not wish it to be understood that he coincided in all the details of the policy of the Government, but looking at it generally, he thought it was good.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Corn-laws they had excited the greatest in terest in the country ; there was no question he believed in which so many petitions had been presented to the House, and he felt confident, whatever Ministry was in power, something must be done with respect to them.— (Hear, hear) For his own part he would do all in his power to keep down the prices of corn to a fair and reasonable scale. As to the reforms that the present Government had effected, he thought they had not been dealt frankly with by several Hon. Members. He would ask reasonable man whether any the reforms in the Church, in the tithes and Church rates were not excellent measures. Then there was their plan of education, and the reduction of the postag e, which he looked upon to be the greatest boon that had been conferred upon the people for ages. So also with respect to the union of the Canadas—in short, all their administrative forms had. effected great good, and en titled them to the gratitude of the country. Now, what act, he would ask, had the Conservatives ever done to entitle them to such a distinction ? For his own part he knew of none. lt was true they had introduced the Controverted Elections Bill, and the Irish Registration Bill ; but he did not think that those measures were suf ficient to call for the gratitude of the country to them. With respect to Ireland, that country had always been cast aside by the Tories ; but he felt certain that they must take care how they governed her in future. Whe ther he considered the demerits of the present Govern ment, or the supposed merits of the new Ministry, he felt bound to vote against the amendment. Colonel SIBTHORP considered that he should be unmindful of the position in which the House was placed, and the duty that he owed it, if he gave a silent vote on the present question. He must congratulate the House and the country that the time had nearly arrived when the Right Honourable Baronet, who had sat too long on the Opposition side of the House, would resume his seat on the other side as a Minister of the Crown. He was rejoiced to think that her Majesty's present Minis ters had not resigned voluntarily, as he should now have the pleasure of seeing them drummed out to a tune which the forms of the House would not allow him to name.— (Laughter.) He rejoiced that he had lived to see that day, and right glad should he be to see, before the Right Hon. Baronet took his seat opposite, those benches cleansed from their political filth by having them well washed with Conservative lime, and regenerated with Conserva tive paint, in order that the glandered body that had hither to sat there, might not infect those who would hereafter possess those benches.—(Laughter.) The Whigs, thank God, after that or to-morrow night, would be no longer Ministers of the Crown. They had not been satisfied with the verdict pronounced by the) last House of Com mons, and they appealed to the people, and the result of that appeal would be the placing of his Right Hon. Friend on the benches on the other side of the House.— (Hear, hear.) If the present Ministers had had the political honesty and decency to have resigned, when the last House of Common told them that it had no confidence in them, they would have been saved the verdict that had been pronounced against them by tha country. He was happy to see the great reaction which had taken place in Yorkshire and is Westminster. Oh ! had the Ministers been present at a scene which he had the happiness to see a few days ago—had they been to Drury-lane Theatre—(Laughter)—and seen the assemblage, both male and female—(Loud laughter)— had they seen them enthusiastically pronouncing the deep disgust they felt for them and the hopes which animated them, the delight with which they looked for ward to the sunshine which they expected to burst upon them in a few days—it would have been a strong and impressive lesson for them in all future time. In that most subtle Speech, which her Majesty's Minis ters had so cunningly put into her Majesty's mouth, they heard much of distress amongst the people, and the dif ficulties of the country ; but his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Tamworth, had a mind and a heart which would enable him to surmount all difficulties. Who had brought those difficulties on the country ? Why. the. Government, with their incompetency—their selfishness and greediness of Commissions, and, he might say, omissions ; but the day to talk of them would soon arrive. They had got up the cry of cheap bread, cheap sugar, and cheap timber ' • they were brought forward merely for the purpose of humbugging the people ; but he would tell them, though perhaps they were already aware of it, that old birds were not to be caught by the Chancellor of the Exchequer's chaff. —(Laughter.) The proper time had not arrived for the discussion of these important questions ; but, come when it would, he predicted that it would be found that they would give no relief to the poor. The fact was, the Go vernment were bankrupts ; and when they produced their schedules, where would be the assets to pay their anxious creditor, the country? He could not sit down without adverting to what had taken place since the Commons of England had given the Government warn ing to quit on the 4th of June last.—(Hear, hear, hear.) How many places had been given away ? how many appointments made ? How much money lavished in rigging out and in calling home, and probably a little something to smooth the passage? What was to be said to the appointment of the late Attorney- General?—what about his outfit? Good God, was not the Attorney-G enera of End _ kw , (Laughter)----1r ; or a c chest ? - At a future day - he would turns which might show more—he would then see how many days, he might say hours, nay minutes, he had performed the duties of his office. Whether he had received any salary or not, he did not know, but they would see by and by. He considered it to be one of the most gross and unpardonable jobs that had ever been perpetrated. There had been two Gazettes since then that were rather remarkable. The Ministers were certainly rewarding their friends. He wished to God they were driven out that night, for they knew not how soon another Gazette might appear.—(A laugh.)—But enough had been done, and sufficient for the day was the evil thereof. With those sentiments he would cordially vote for the amendment, and the sooner he gave that vote the better, for the effect of it, he felt certain, would be to give satisfaction to the people at large, security to the country, and prove a blessing and add to the happiness of the country. Mr. POWELL—The Noble Lord the Member for Li verpool had said that the people of England had given a decided verdict against the Government, but it was to be borne in mind that the appeal had also been made to the people of Ireland, and their verdict had been decidedly in favour of the Ministry. He was an ardent friend of free trade, but as so many interests, and important ones, had grown up under the monopoly and protective system, he wished for only a gradual amelioration of our com mercial code. He thought the policy of the Government founded on justice and wisdom. A fixed low duty on corn would give a sufficient protection, while at the same time it would prove a salutary warning to those whose inte rests would be affected. He would warmly support the Address, wishing, as he did, to relieve the people from un warrantable monopolies and unjust taxes. Mr. TURNER—The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had said that in Ireland he would meet with his utmost difficulties in governing the country. Now a dinner was given to celebrate the return of the Members for Kent, at which a Noble Earl (Win chilsea) was stated to have been present, and to have indulged in the use of language that was unbecoming, and if the Report was true, the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir E. Knatchbull) who was present, was answerable for it. He talked of the Roman Catholic Clergy as "Popish factious demagogues," headed by O'Connell, and " led on by the most infu riated and bigoted priesthood that had ever cursed a country."—(Hear.) Now, he would ask, was this lan guage calculated to make the task of the Right Hon. Baronet more easy? On the contrary, would it not add to the difficulty. He would now come to the real ques t:en before the House. With regard to the chief topic that had been discussed in that House, viz., the lan guage they had put into the Queen's Speech, he thought ;f they had not done so, they would have be trayed the country ; and notwithstanding the silence of lion. Mem.tiers on the other side of the House, those Much had been said Ogon the question of wages, on his (Mr. T;:rner's) side, were determined that ' the would tell the House question should go'. fairly before the country.—(Hear.) week, and with th. 7. that country and he what the rate of wages was in 23 quartern loaves. In i in 176 0. ~ kt that period the labourer had ss.a -urlOchs.aspeerownelyek,l t sum he was able to pur chasewas 95., and with 792 the average of wages that the labourer was able to purchase of bread. In 1841 15 quarterns the highest rate of loaves. Talk of money value. Money was only a o nd qu w a i r t t h err i i t the poor man was the repre,SentatiVe of that which kept up their stamina--(A laugh; — and it was a w b a l g e es to was p clear that the labouring man in 1792 was better able to support his family than at present. The fanners had been considerably alarmed by the outcry raised by the landed proprietors of the injury that would be done to their interests, but he thought that the general good should be taken into account, instead of the interest of any particular class. The interest of the landed proprie tors would certainly be affected by the proposed measure to the extent of somewhere about to per cent. Under any circumstances, foreign wheat could not be introduced at less than 603. a quarter. He contended that 565. ought to be the standard price, and the day was not long past since the farmers, until they had been differently schooled, were in the habit of saying that that would be a fair remunerating price. He would ask the landed proprietors, were they prepared, on the score of humanity, and the destitution of the people— to make any sacrifice. He contended that no Go vernment, however strong it might be, could stand unless it made some. sacrifices. - It was the duty of that House in time to make concessions to the people ; and in his opinion they should have brought forward these measures two years ago. He thought, however, the House should have begun with a higher duty, and gradually come down to a low one; he would not say what sum. But they had lost that golden opportunity, and the people were in a state of utter destitution. He now came to that part of her Majesty's Speech which called upon them to consider the laws which regulated the trade in corn, so as to pre vent the fluctuations which had taken place in its price. These statements could not be controverted—they were damning facts, and were established by the returns which were lately placed in the hands of lion. Members. It appeared that since the Bill was passed no less than 11,700,000 qrs. of wheat, and 3,700,000 cwt. of flour had been imported. Out of that 11.000,000 of quarters the House and the country would be astonished to find that 3,900,000 qrs. paid a duty of only ls., and 2,800,000 qrs. paid a duty of only 2s. Bd., so that 6,700,000 quarters, being considerably more than half of the entire quan tity, paid an average duty of only ls. 10d. What then had the farmers to be alarmed at - in the proposition of an Bs. duty. He did not believe the measure would give the country cheap bread.—(Tory cheers.) But he would tell-them what it would give them, it' would give them a regular supply of bread when they wanted it.— (Cheers and laughter.) The eleven millions of quarters of wheat imported produced to the ,Revenue 190,000/. But an Bs. duty would have produced 2,480,0001. to the Exchequer ? Under the one system the corn would come in gradually, while, under thepresent law, it would not be admitted until bread rose to a famine price. His last remark would be as to the derangement of the cur rency which was occasioned by the present system. He contended that it not only deranged the currency, but that it placed in jeopardy the commercial and landed in terests of the country. He trusted that those whose duty it was likely to be to administer the affairs of that great country, would not shut their eyes to the evils which af fected the interest of the manufacturing and working classes, and he prayed that they would endeavour, having a majority in that House, to relieve the poor of that country from digr present sufferings.—(Hear.) Mr. ESCOTT expressed his determination to vote in favour of the amendment. Hon. Members on the other side had, in their addresses, avoided a statement of the real question which that House had to decide, and of course they had avoided all arguments in favour of the amended Address. He thought it very extraordinary that just at the close of the career of a tottering Admi nistration they should bring forward a Budget which, in the opinion of the majority of that House, went to at tack the great vital interests of that country, viz., its ships its colonies, its commerce, and its landed interest. —(Hear,f hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Presi dent of the Board of Trade had stated some reasons why the Budget had been introduced. He had told them that it was in consequence of Members coming to the Go vernment and saying that something of that sort ought to be done; it was, therefore, evidently the pressure from within, and not the pressure from without. The question however, was not one between cotton and corn ; but he asked, was the Parliament of England to deliberate upon such questions at all, while an Administration was in office in defiance of Parliament, and in defiance of the law and the Constitution.—(Cheers.) He wished to say one word with respect to the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, who stood in a very different position from the Government, and who, he admitted, was a man of great ability, having raised himself, by the force of his talents, to the representation of a great city. He had shown an admirable ekample of independence of mind, although in support of principles which, if carries into effect, would only produce the same consternation. &in fusion, and defeat, which must follow the establish ,ent of a Government in their Monarchical Constitution upon democratical and revolutionary principles.—(Cheers.) He had told them that they were all equally wrong, and that he was right, and not himself alone, but the people of England were with him. What was this but the old and often-repeated and exploded fallacy of what was meant by the people of England. If he admitted that the Whigs and Tories; and a majority of the electors of England were against him, did they not form a to lerably good portion of the people of England.—(Hear, hear.) Some of the Hon. and. Learned Member's re marks on the subject of the Poor-laws had given him pain. He stated that addresses were made from the hustings on that subject, in order to influence the votes of electors. If that were so, the epithets of base and sor did men would noi be InisplicAd in designating the parties who had so used them. 13ut the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should consider that his (Mr. Escott's) side of the House had as much right to speak in favour of the old as other Honourable Members had to speak in favour of the New Poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) He had listened with attention to the Hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Cobden), who spoke on the other side, and who seemed actuated by no other feeling than that of implacable dislike to the agricultural interest of the country. He (Mr. Escott) might be mistaken ; but it appeared so to him. That Hon. Member appeared to have some sort of commission from a kind of Conference or Synod which was held at Manchester—a parliamen turn indoctum he could not call it, but a parliamentum theologium—whose discussions went to show, on the au thority of Scripture, that the Corn-laws were the means of oppressing and starving the poor. He (Mr. Escott) did not know why ; but the Hon. Member entered, with out any attack having been made on that side of the House, on the defence of those ministers of religion, for meeting to discuss those difficult questions which now engrossed public attention. Why had the Hon. Mem ber defended them ? Nobody had attacked them. He (Mr. Escott) always looked with suspicion on a gra tuitous defence of that kind. It looked as if the cause defended was a bad one. Was there any suspicion of that kind loitering in the Hon. Member's mind ? He (Mr. Escott) did not attack the ministers of religion for meeting as they did. But were these ministers the same parties who, for years past, had been denouncing the ministers of the Established Church for meddling in public affairs ? Were those the men who said that it was their duty to confine themselves to their spiritual avocations, and to mind their flocks ? He knew not ; but he knew that there were excellent and good men amongst the Dissenting clergy, and excellent and good men belonging to the Church of England, who thought it their duty to take part in the discussion of political questions. They might be both right, but that man was not a good man, be he Church man or Dissenter, who thought it his duty to excite ill- Will among his fellow-men, by throwing on one party the odium and accusation of being starvers of the poor. —(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He would next state what was in his mind the real question which was before the House. That question was not, as was stu diously represented, whether or no Hon. Members of tk n Uen r . itgrial House had a, right to discuss ey had full — l... is —That was not the ques ject ; but the question was, whether the MiniStdrs of the Crown had a right to come down to Parliament and put into their Sovereign's mouth a speech recom mending particular measures on which there was the greatest possible difference of opinion in the country, when they themselves had appealed to the country, and had found its voice against them by a large majority ad verse to them in thitt House. What, he would ask, was the great doctrine of the responsibility of Ministers? Who were they responsible to but to that House ? What were Ministers now doing ? They were making their Sovereign appear in an adverse position to that House— to the people as represented in Parliament. He did not envy them their position. Ministers were not exactly out of office, but their fate was sealed. It was only a question of a day or two till Honourable Members on his (Mr. Escott's) side of the House took their places on the other side. Why was it then they put their Sove reign in that painful position ? Why was it that they made their Sovereign do that which had not been done in this country for 200 years ? Why was it that they forced the House to come to a vote which was extraor dinary and perhaps unprecedented ? It was because their course was extraordinary and unprecedented. It was because the'question was, should the House of Com mons give up the rights of the people and succumb to the Ministers of the (frown. He knew not how it was that they had been encouraged to act thus. Had he been asked for a reassn for their so acting he should certainly have said it had arisen from the lenity with which they had been treated by both Houses of Parliament during the last two years. The moderation with which they had been treated, was perhaps the best policy, as was proved by the result of the last election. It was that course which placed the Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, in his present high position. Any Honourable Gentlemen, he was certain, who might defend Ministers would only defend them as the Hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had done. That Hon. Gentleman said " He disliked Ministers and their measures, but -he was obliged to defend them because he disliked those who were opposed to thein more." The unconstitutional course taken by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies surprised him. Nothing in the writings of the. Noble Lord, nor in his previous speeches, led him (Mr. E.) to expect such a course from the Noble Lord. With respect to the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, he believed the ground of his popularity to be that he never made great professions—that he never promised the people to do impossibilities. That was a popularity which had the extraordinary advantage that it did not wane from year to year, nor from Parliament to Parliament. He had endeavoured to state the reasons why he meant to vote for the amended Address ; but the people had, in fact, decided that question. They indeed cared very little about that question.. The one which they really cared for was, the question of cheap bread—the ques tion which was urged on the other side. He could speak on that question from kis own experience. He had heard the cry raised, and that in no contracted sphere, and he self the people disgusted by what they considered to be an attempt to cajole them, and obtain their support. In conclusion, he would express the hope, that if a discussion on the Corn-laws would arise in that House or elsewhere, it would not be conducted without acrimony or party feeling. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, (who spoke so low as to be frequently inaudible) said he could assure the Hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Es- Ott) that he should not follow him in his story respect ing the big and the little loaf, nor was he going to tell the House any story of what might have taken place between himself and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. But he confessed that he had followed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman with all the attention which his speech deserved, and he was not a little astonished, not a little surprised, to hear from him that the House had no right, and did not dare, according to the Constitution and the law, to discuss the question of the Corn-laws.-- (Loud cheers.) "Why, an appeal had been made on that question to the feelings and the senti ments of the country. The country, from one end to the other, had re-rechoed the discussions on that ques tion.—(Opposition cheers.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite told them they came to represent the result of that dis cussion, and yet, on the first debate in that House, when her Majesty, in a Speech, nominally the Speech of her Majesty, but in the eye of the Constitution the Speech of her Ministers—(Opposition cheers)—placed that question before them for discussion, he then heard, for the first time as a Parliamentary doctrine, that that House had no right .to enter into the discussion of the Corn laws.—(Cheers.) He confessed he thought the Hon. and Learned Gentler: piLhad failed in making out his point, and he seemed to doubt before the end of his speech the truth of his own theory ; for, notwith standing h e h a d sa id t h e House wag incapable after discussion, the H on . an d L earne d G ent l eme n could not avoid repeating the story of the " big and little loaf." — (Cheers.) His Noble Friend who opened the debate that evening, complained also that the discussion was not put on a fair footing. He stated that he would not discuss the question of protection—that he would not go into the corn, and sugar, and timber duties. He said also—at which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not surprised—th a t these were not the questions on which he had talked to his constituents. He alluded also to his neighbours, yet there was the Right Hon. B aro net entertaining thel same principles as himself, who did talk of a fixed duty, not as a permanent arrange ment, but as one which would lead to a further reduction TTIE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, AUGUST 27, IS4I. the House to look at the result. In 1831 the revenue was 51,150,0001. ; since that year six millions of taxes were taken off. But in 1839 the revenue had not fallen off to the amount of this six millions, but it had risen to 51,927,0001.—(Cheer5.) One of the taxes which was taken off in the meantime was that upon:newspapers, and when that reduction was proposed, some Gentlemen op posite suggested that before they took off the taxes upon knowledge they ought to take off the tax on soap. But the result of that experiment, in which the Noble Lord opposite concurred, was satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to the question of the post-office, and he approached it with an idea that the moment it was mentioned, he should hear loud cheers and cries of "It had been an entire failure," but that was not the tone which was adopted at the time. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) admitted the great benefit which the reduction would confer upon the country, but he required that an equivalent should be found in other taxes.—(Hear hear.) His Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) satisfied that condition, and found the equivalent in other taxes.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to the financial measures which ho had the honour to propose in the last session. Ile would not go over the ground which had been sufficiently traversed by Hon. Gentlemen upon that (the Liberal) side of the House, and it had been carefully avoided by all those who fol lowed on the other side.—(Cheers.) The time must come when those Hon. Gentlemen must lift the veil, and the mountain would give forth its mouse.—(" Oh," aid laughter.) But although in that House they were told that they had no right to discuss those questions, and that their only duty was to vote on the question of confidence or no confidence—(Tory cheers)—there were places where that prohibition did not extend.—(Cheers.) He confessed he felt surprise to find that it had been stated that the reduction of the timber duties was of no value to the consumers, and that it was a delusion as regarded revenue. The party who made that observation was himself a Member of the Cabinet which proposed that reduction, and he was the Member who suggested it. If that party brought forward a delusive measure—a measure useless to the consumer, destructive to the colonies, bad in itself, and of no profit to the revenue—if that party assented to that measure when it was proposed in the House of Commons by Earl Spencer—he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not avoid expressing his surprise that he should denounce it afterwards in the terms attributed to him.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He was surprised that the same party, had now turned round upon him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and said that the same measure was worse than useless, and delusive—that it was mad.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, that the party to which he alluded could only be regarded as one whose character and opinions should not carry that weight which the public were willing to attach to them. He had next a few observations to make upon that great and important subject the Corn-laws. The Ministerial measure, in relation to those laws, had not been brought forward as a measure of finance, and it had not been framed with reference to the Budget. There was no doubt, however, that they could not look to the revenue without finding the question of course coming constantly under their consideration. There was no doubt but the first question which the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked, when calculating his reveune, was, what was the state of the harvest, as that revenue would depend entirely upon the consuming power of the people.—(Cheers.) If therefore, it was considered merely in that light, it was still a question of the deepest importance. But if they looked upon it in a larger point of view, the revenue sunk into nothing. He would not enter upon the question of corn at that moment ; he believed they would have other opportunities of discussing it. He had, no doubt, that the present scale of duty had not been framed with a view of inflicting hardships upon any class of the com munity ; but he still felt it had been framed with the mistaken though well-meant intention of producing steadiness of price. He believed that in the result it had greatly failed.—(Hear, hear.) - He believed that its failure had been proved by many years of experience ; and they had since learned the very different principle that the less they attempted to interfere with those mat ters the more likely would they be to succeed. He en treated lion. Gentlemen opposite to take the question into their immediate consideration with a view to place it if possible upon a satisfactory and lasting foundation. He trusted that as wise men, reading the signs of the times, they would see that whatever resistance they might offer, some revision of the present duty must take place, and they should substitute in its stead a duty which would, in name, if not in reality, a fixed one. He earnestly entreated the powerful party opposite to be wise in time, and while they had power to exercise that power in a way in which, if they did not exercise it, they would not retain it long ; while they would leave a rankling sore on the vitals of the country, and strike a blow which must ultimately undermine the sources of its prosperity.—(Cheers.) Mr. GOULBURN 'rose and said, that it had• not been his intention to have offered any observations to the House upon that occasion ; but he was sure the House would feel that, after the unusual allusions which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made to the financial transactions of the country for the last ten years, and after the part which he had borne in contests upon that subject with the Right Hon. Gentleman, it would not be just to those who had not paid attention to statements of the kind—it would not be just, on his part, to the Bight Hon. Gentleman himself—if he (Mr. Goulburn) did not proceed at once to state the reasons why his views upon finance differed entirely from those of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He was sure it would be his fault if he did not satisfy the House in judging between the two opposing statements, that . , th,osq,A'Allg y -IRgitt lion. GenP er "._2.4%."ltiidefrst make a few observations IftWect of that Budget which they were to have isposed of in the last Session of Parliament. The first remark he would make upon the subject was this, that although a prominent feature in the sugar duties was an alteration in those duties—although the party opposite had maintained, upon the debate of last Session, that the supply of sugar which we might in future expect from our colonies would be so limited as to render it necessary for us to have recourse to slave-grown sugar—al though that was the argument which had been used by the Right Honourable Gentleman in proposing his measure—and although a contrary opinion had been expressed by Honourable Members upon his (Mr. Goulburn's) side of the House s the Right Hon. Gen tleman had avoided saying anything upon that part Of his Budget which had been most pressed by him, and which, in point of revenue, was the source from which he expected the greatest profit.—(Hear, hear.) Why that silence? The fact was simply this, that every pre diction on the subject, which had been made upon that (the Opposition) side of the House, had been amply ve rified by subsequent facts. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew as well as he did that the supply of sugar from the East and West Indies had, during the three months which had elapsed since the period at which the subject had been last under discussion in the House, more than realised the expectations of the majority on the occasion, and had exceeded the import during the cor responding period last year.—(Cheers.) And more than that, the Right Hon. Gentlemen was aware that the consumption of the country during the three months had risen to such a point that, if it did not decrease during the remaining nine months, the consumption of the commodity this year would ex ceed the consumption of any preceding one.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had alluded to the consumption of sugar from January to June, and confined himself strictly to those six months, from which he drew an analogy in favour of the argument he had used upon a former occasion. But he (Mr. Goulburn), thinking there was something rather suspicious in the suppres sion of the returns for the period following, had applied to commercial men, from whom lie learned that a great increase in the consumption had taken place during the last three months. So much for the omission, upon the part of the Right Hon. Baronet, of a prominent subject in his Budget. But the Right Hon. Gentleman thought fit to touch upon the subject of timber—a question not brought forward in that House. Tho Right Honourable Gentleman had expressed his disap probation of the statements made upon that subject by a Noble Lord elsewhere ; but as no Member of the Government had contradicted these statements, he (Mr. Goulburn) could only conclude that they did not admit of refutation.—(Hear, hear.) But as the Right Hon. Gentleman had broached the subject of the Timber duties, he (Mr. Goulburn) might be permitted to call the attention of the House to a circumstance which would not probably increase their confidence in the financial ability of the members of her Majesty's Go vernment. Those Members of the House who had sat in the last Parliament might, perhaps, remember that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancel:or of the Ex chequer had brought forward the proposed alteration of the timber duties, with a view to obtain a suns of 600,0001 to meet the expenses of the year. It so hap pened that the Governor-General of Canada bad thought proper, at the request of the House of Assembly, to lay upon the table of that House the letter which he had addressed to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, stating his views with respect to the timber duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read an extract from the letter, the sub stance of which was as follows—" Great alarm is neces sarily felt by those engaged in the timber trade in Canada, as the prospect of any alteration in the duty levied upon timber imported into the United Kingdom might affect the protection hitherto afforded to colonial timber; but the question must of course be resolved by the Government, and Parliament, according to the views they might take of the general condition of the empire. I conceive, however, that in any change which may be determined upon, if it were one which would disturb the proportion of duty paid upon colonial and foreign timber under the existing law, care should be taken to diminish as much as possible the loss to individuals, by rendering the change gradual. Such a course was certainly most just as well as most politic ; but above all, I must express my hope that, whatever al teration is adopted, the recommendations of the Com mittee of 1835, of which I was the Chairman; will be adhered to—namely, that the change will not effect the ' importation of the year, which would be an act of ex treme hardship upon the colonial trade, inasmuch as it can only be carried on by engagements entered into many months before the tune at wich the goods can be shipped." All shipments, therefore, which could be made had been entered into upon the faith of a continuance of the present law—(Hear, hear) — and those shipments could not be countermanded or, stopped.—(Hear, bear.) Was the Government igs norant of that simple fact, that the timber ordered from Canada was ordered a long time h9f,ore it arrived in this country? Or, if they were aware of the fact, how could the Chancellor of the Exchequer come down to the House of Commons and propose a reduction of the duty upon timber as a means of meeting the expenses of the year? The Right Hon. Gentleman had complained of misrepresentations made at the recent election, with re gard to the financial policy of the Government. But whose fault was that ? Not his (Mr. Goulburn's), not that of those with whom lie was associated. lie had taken the precaution, on the announcement of a dissolu- of protection. His Noble Friend said these were not questions to discuss at the present moment, and that the question for discussion was, whether the Government then in power had the confidence of the country. — (Cheers.) He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not complain,of the course which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had taken. He thought they had a perfect right at the earliest opportunity, and he thought it was their duty to afford them that opportunity to bring the ques tion to a practical conclusion. Whether it was expedient or not to have done it or not in the way which the Right Hon. Gentleman had done—whether it was advisable to follow that system of silence with regard to those great qUestions which, for the first time in Parliamentary his tory, were adopted by a large and important party in the state—was another question on which he certainly enter tained a very strong opinion. He believed the mystery in which gentlemen opposite had enveloped the course of their future policy with regard to these great questions, was neither consistent with real- wisdom nor ultimately with good policy.—(Cheers.) He thought that a party who were candidates for power ought to lay before the country as frankly as possible the course they. prepesed to pursue.—(Cheers.) Whether that were so or not — whether it was proposed, as did the 'Noble Lord who opened the debate, and the Hon. Gentleman who moved the amendment, to omit all considerations of those great questions—to per form the play, opitting the part of Hamlet—was a subject for the consideration of that House, but it was one at which the country would be much surprized. The Hon. Gentleman who opened the debate stated that a great party, before they acceded to office, might follow a system of silence, even on those questions which they themselves brought forward, and had chosen as subjects for discussion. The Hon. Gentleman, when he stated this case, preferred an indictment containing three counts against the Government, charging them as unworthy to govern the country. He fairly stated that he was bound to prove his case, and to bring forward the grounds on which he considered they were not entitled to the confi dence of the House. The Hon. Gentleman, who spoke with that ability which he always expected from him, was followed by the Noble Lord (Bruce) who gave great promise in debate of future eminence. —(Hear.) He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had :,ex pected that some great leader of the party—some of those who were accustomed to enter into the discus sions of Parliament—in whom the Conservative party had great confidence--would have given them an oppor tunity of bearing thegrounds on which they were ac cused. He did not wish to underrate the Gentlemen who had addressed that House, but he thought it Would have been a more fair and manly course to have given them an opportunity of hearing those who were their chief accusers, before they were called upon to enter on their defence.—(Hear.) He would now address himself to a few of the charges made by the Hon. Gentleman who opened the debate. The Hon. Gentleman stated that the main grounds on which he considered they had for feited the government of the country were first, that they had departed from the professions of Lord Grey. If that were the case, he begged the House to look a little at some of the accusations which the Hon. Gen tleman made against them, because he certainly saw two of his Right Hon. Friends opposite whom he should take the liberty of placing as criminals at the same bar. The Hon. Gentleman said that the professions of Earl Grey were peace, reform, and economy. He would first deal with the question of peace. He stated that Earl Grey had said that he would always keep the country at peace. But that must be an error, for it would be ridiculous in any man to state that, under any circumstances - , he would keep the country at peace. Well, he said, we went- to war in Antwerp and Por tugal. He said . they were little wars. It might be so, but where, then, were his .two Right Ho nourable Friends ? They had followed as closely as possible in the footsteps of these two great men in their " little wars."—(Cheers.) If they had forfeited the confidence of the country, he begged the Hon. Gen tleman to tell him whether he had transferred his confi dence to his two ,Right Honourable Friends. If that were not enough, he world proceed to the next count, that of Reform. There the Hon. Gentleman stated they had performed more than their pledges ; for instance, with regard to Municipal Corporation Reform, not however, he supposed, from a sense of public duty, but because it might tend to their own Parlia mentary interest. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) apprehended, that if any charge was to be made of that sort, he should, at any rate, share it with his two Right Hon. Friends opposite.—(Cheers.) As regarded tho Municipal Reform Bill, they were as much parties to it as any Gentleman on his side of the House. It was quite true they were not in the Government at the time of the formation of the Bill, yet in all its future stages they were as much engaged as any other person. Then, were they to lose the confidence of the country, to be dismissed, to be considered as utterly unworthy, and to have the meanest motives attributed to them ? While the Hon. Gentleman sat quietly, his two Right Hon. Friends were about to transfer the confidence, of which he said the Government was utterly unworthy, to them.—(Cheers.) He then came to the question of eco nomy, and here he hoped to be permitted to state some new facts and new figures which would disprove those vague statements and erroneous financial details which had prevailed in all parts sf the country. The Noble Lord stated that they had been guilty of a " reckless and profligate expenditure." He (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) had had some returns framed bearing on the question before the House, to some of which he would beg leave to call their attention. He begged to state that in those returns he had shown the whole expenditure of the country, whether as charges on the national debt or other branches of the expeniture. That triode of givin,,_ , P the expenditure appeared to him to theyldai iavectyNgUallest view of the subject- „Whey before them they ought to compare what this " profli gate-expenditure" was compared with that of former years. He thought these figures would be the fairest answer to those vague charges which he had made in the course of, the debate. The whole expenditure of the opposite party, far the five years ending 1830, averaged 54,599,0001, and a fraction a year. The whole expen diture of her Majesty's Government, since their return to office, for the five years ending in 1840, was 52,148,000/. and a fraction : so that the average yearly expenditure of the Whig Government, as compared with that of the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite, was less by the annual sum of 2,450,0001.—(Uheer5.) He had not made these comparisons with the view of ac cusing former Governments of spending more than was necessary ; he had done so in defence of a Government charged by Hon. Gentlemen opposite with " reckless and profligate expendituro."—(Cheers.) He might be told that the Puke of Wellington's Government was new in office, and that the last three years were the only fair years of which to compare the expenditure. He would admit, what he had frequently admitted, that Ho nourable Gentlemen opposite had exercised the op portunity frequently afforded them of considerably reducing the expenditure of the country. Then let him compare their expenditure with that of the last three years of the Duke of Wellington's Government. The average expenditure of that Gvvernment, for the three years ending in 1830, was 53,462,0001. and a fraction. The average expenditure of her Majesty's Government was, as he had stated, 52,148,0001., so that, even as compared with the three last years of the Duke of Wel lington's Government, the average expenditure of her Majesty's present Governmen had been less by 1,313,0001. He would now compare the last year 1840, with the average expenditure of the three last years of the Duke of Wellington Administration, requesting the House to bear in mind that in that year there was an extraor dinary increase of expenditure on account of the affairs in China, in Syria, and in the East Indies. The expen diture, however, of 1841 was 18,0001. less than the ave rage expenditure of the three last of the Wellington Ad ministration.—(Cheers.) With respect to the compara tive state of the debt under the administration preceding Earl Grey, and those which had been in office since 1830, he would read a statement which contained data upon which the House might make a fair comparison. It should be remembered that in the last five years a large amount of debt had been thrown upon the country by the grant of twenty millions to the holders of slaves in the West Indies.—(Hear, hear.) He did not regret it, but when they came to compare matters between the two sets of Ministers, they must take that portion of the debt into account, although it was incurred in a great and noble cause.—(Hear, hear.) In 1831 the total -amount of the national was 838,549,000/. In 1841, including the West India grant, there was no increase of that debt, but, on the country, a diminution of one million.—(Much cheering.) If they had been left with out that additional burthen the debt would have stood isa 1835, at 815,957,0004 and in 1841 a reduction equal to 32,000,000. would have been effected.—(Repeated cheering.) He might here be allowed, as it was a matter of some importance, to observe upon a subject which had been alluded to in a manner calculated to lead the public to suppose that the security of the funds in savings' banks had been endangered---(Bear, hear)—it had come to him through the usual channels of information that a statement to that effect had been made ; but he hoped that the lan guage actually made use of had been improperly re ported.—(Hear, hear.) He would not now discuss the question, whether the course which he adopted was con stitutional or not, but he would assert, that in no respect had the security of those funds been hazarded.—(Hear, hear.) And if the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge did him the honour of replying to him, he hoped that he would bear him out in this, that, in whatever he had done, he had left to the depositors and the savings' banks the same security as, they ever possessed.—(Hear, hear.) In comparing ' the conduct of the present Government with that of its predecessors in re spect to the debt, they should look back to the year 1827. In that year a Finance Committee was appointed, who reported that the supposed Sinking Fund of five millions had never been practically applied. In the years 1826 and 1827, whilst it was held out to the Government that the whole amount of five millions had been so applied, there was really a deficiency upon the whole revenue of 645,000/. in the for mer year, and of 826,000.. in the latter. That Committee recommended, that instead of keeping up the Sinking Fund, any surplus revenue should be applied to redeem the national debt. That recommendation was never car ried into effect, but the surplus- was allowed to accumu late. And, in 1830, it rose to three millions. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goulburn) had the opportunity of following up the recommendation of the Committee, but he had not done so. He left a sur plus, which was stated at 300,000/, but it really amounted to 600, 0 00/.—(Hear.) Since that time, the policy of Lord Spencer h a d been followed, which was, that the formation of a Sinking Fund was not the best means of relieving the people, but the taxation should be reduced as much as possible, and theactual burden of the na tional debt diminished by best enabling the people to bear it, although its nominal amount would be the same. The natural result of that policy was, that in cases of extra ordinary emergency the Government was obliged to come to the country for the means of meeting it by an extraordinary support.--:-(Hear, hear.) If it were sup posed that the financial policy was not wise, he begge tion of the late Parliament, to move for papers which would have shown the real state of the finances of the country ; but though those papers had been moved for in time to be printed and presented to the late Parliament, they had not been laid upon the table of the House until the day before yester day.(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) So far, then, as the ignorance of the electors was concerned, the fault did not lie with them. He would next proceed to certain statements of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and although he had not come forward , to speak upon the subject, he trusted he could show that those statements were in many respects fallacious. The first point to which the Right Honourable Gentleman referred, was the amount of the national expense at cer tain periods, comparing preceding Administrations with his own. The Right lion. Gentleman had taken the average expenditure of five years, including . three years of the administration of the Duke of Wellington, and he stated that the expenditure exceeded that of the last five years. Now, it had been said, that the taking of average was a fallacious mode of judging the effects of the Corn-laws ; and the same remark applied to mat ters of finance. The rate of the expenditure during the five years ending with the Duke of Wellington's adminis tration, was very high during the first of those years, and very low during the last. A decrease, therefore, had been gradually going on during those five years ; while the average had constantly increased during the last five years.—(Opposition cheers.) In his (Mr. Goul burn's) opinion a wise system of financial economy would consist in a gradual seduction of the pub lic expendiure, and he thought, therefore, that the House would see that the averages in question afforded the Right Honourable Gentleman but little ground for triumph.—(Hear.) But his com plaints against the Government had never been confined to mere questions of expenditure. He admitted that there were cases in which an increase of expenditure was inevitable ; but his complaint against the present Ministry was that they had uniformly failed to keep the income of the country on a footiug to meet the na tional wants.—(Hear.) If they increased their expendi ture without at the same time increasing their in come, their system was ruinous, and became a subject . of great reproach.—(Cries of " Hear.") There never had been a budgetbrought forward in which he had not raised his voice against such a course as ne cessarily leading to difficulty, if not to ruin—in which he had not protested against the Government for not pro vidingfor the increase in expenditure by an increase in income. —(Cheers.) Then came the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman respecting the manner in which he had dealt with the debt, and he thought that that statement must have struck every one who heard it as one of the most wonderful instances of financial power ever exhibited. If the Right Hon. Gentlemen were really able to effect the achievements of which he had boasted, so far from wishing to remove him from his sta tion, the House ought to vote that he should be con tinued in his office for ever.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that if they took the amount of the debt of the country in 1830, and the amount of the debt in 1840, and excluded from the ac count the amount of the • West India loan, they would find that during those ten years the amount of the debt was reduced by thirteen millions; and the Right Ho nourable Gentleman went on to say that if the amount of the debt in 1835 were compared with the amount of the debt in 1840, it would be found that of that 13 millions, seven millions had been reduced within the latter period. Now, this certainly exhibited one of the most miraculous efforts of finance on record. The exhibitions of Katterfelto and of the Wizard of the North were nothing equal to it.—(A laugh.) They, indeed, shut up an empty pot, and pulled out a pan cake ; but the Right Hon. Gentlemen shut up an empty chest, and pulled out 13 millions.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the only means of paying off debt must be from the surplus in the revenue ; and during some of those years there was a surplus of 7,400,0001., while during others there was a deficiency of 4,000,000/., leaving a net surplus of 3,400,000/., with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he had paid off 13 millions of debt.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now how did the Right Hon. Gentleman make that out ? When he (Mr. Goulburn) was Chancellor of the Exchequer he had brought into Parliament an Act empowering the Commissioners of the National Debt to cancel a portion of the debt by granting annuities terminable at the end of a term of years. The effect was to create a sinking fund, diminishing the capital while increasing the annual charge. The Hon. Gentleman said he had those an nuities back. Now, suppose those annuities had been granted for 12 years, the Right Hon. Gentleman took the value of the annuities at 12 years' purchase, and put them on his (Mr. Goulburn's) side of the ac count 'and thus increased it by that additional change, while he put two years' purchase only on his own, and having done that, the Right Ho nourable Gentleman exclaimed, see to what an amount I have reduced the national debt ; but if that course were adopted whoever might succeed the Right Hon. Gentleman would be able to boast that he had still further reduced the debt ; or if the Right Hon. Gen tleman himself were to continue in office, and sit still, and do nothing, he would still be able to make the same appeal to the House, and refer to the reduction of the debt by such means as a proof of his wonder ful sagacity.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman next alluded to the savings' banks, and he was glad that had done so, for he (Mr. Goulburn) was as anxious as the Chancellor of the Exchequer could be to disabuse the public mind of any supposition that the operations of the Right Hon. Gentleman were calcu lated ill.4: 3 PitilheOste tA.Z7.4ifeo:ile " ar.) Nothing could be more erroneous than any supposition of that sort, and however much' he might have objected to the operation of the. Right Hon. Gentleman, that had never been the_ ground on which he had objected to them. His objection was to the principle of not keeping the income equal to the expenditure. And the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, having the power by these means of creating permanent debt, without the knowledge or controul of Parliament—(Hear, hear)—he would admit that, as the law stood, the Right Hon. Gentleman had the power of acting as he had done. But it was never the intention of the law to confer that power. The law empowered! the Commissioners of savings' banks to in vest their money in any securities they might deem most eligible. They had the power of selling Exchequer Bills, or of cancelling them, and calling on the Govern ment to give them new stock, and this power had been given them with a view ofmeeting the exigencies of Exche quer Bills falling and being necessary to be funded, but not with a view of enabling the Government arbitrarily to make a loan without the knowledge of Parliament. That was the operation which had taken place, and the saving banks had had new bonded stock in exchange for Exchequer Bills. He objected to that operation as a step taken for obtaining money without the knowledge of Parliament, but was as anxious as the Right Hon. Gentleman to disabuse the public mind as to the possi bility of loss to the depositors. The Financial Com mittee had recommended that Government should al ways endeavour to procure an annual surplus of three millions, and that nothing should be applied towards the redemption of the debt, which was not an actual surplus over expenditure.—(Hear.) The reason of this was, because they felt convinced that if an endeavour was not made to secure a surplus of three millions, no surplus whatever could be realised after the deductions had been made for en unexpected' contingency. During the three years of the Duke of Wellington's Administration, he would admit that the surplus was only eight millions, but during the last five years there had been a deficiency of six millions ; thus showing the contrast between the two systems ; the one realizing the perpetually increasing surplus, and the other a perpetually 'increasing deficiency.—(Hear, hear.) It was perfectly true the year after they had quitted office, the revenue had not realised what he had anticipated when he made that great reduction of taxation in the preceding year. This was :partly owing to the Government having been. broken up before he had had an opportunity of proposing those taxes, on which he had relied for part of his supplies. But in the succeeding year there had been a surplus of 700,000/., which would have gone on in creasing had it not been for the reductions in taxation which it had then been thought fit to make. His ob jection to the Ministry was not that they had increased the expenditure, but that they had neglected to increase the income at the same time—that every time they had increased expenditure they had repeated taxes. He did not think it necessary to enter further into discus sion. If he had made himself intelligible to the House, he had shown, first, that the system of averages, on which the Right Hon. Gentleman founded his claim to the confidence of that House, was not a just one ; secondly, that the claim of the Right lion. Gentleman to have reduced thirteen millions of debt, while he had only three millions of surplus to do it with, was one that was utterly inadmissible ; and, further, that, as regarded the reduction of annuities, the Right Hon. Gentleman was entitled to no credit whatever for that course. If this was all the Right Hon. Gentleman could state as a reason why, at the last moment, the House should repose confidence in him—for let it be recallected that Hon. Gentlemen were not now on their trial,—that had taken place in the last Parliament—(Cheers)—and the jury had found them guilty.—(Hear, and cheers.) . And now they had appealed to the higher Court, the constituency of the country, which had confirmed the verdict. They now: stood there for the judgment which Parliament felt disposed to pass upon them. - -(Cheers.) If this was the only case on which they could rest their appeal for renewed confidence, he would leave it to the House to determine on which side the question should be. decided.—(Cheers.) Mr. WAKLEY said, that after listening to the state ments, the arguments, and the illustrations of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had immediately preceded hut' , any one would suppose that there was no country. so al% governed as England, an d th a t w h ere so mu ch virtue, i s much industry, an d so muc h pat i ence was exhibited n the manageme n t o f public affairs, it was impossible t_te.; an new doctor could b e requ i re d.—(L aug hter.) t however, it appeared that the public accounts v and so in a very strange state, so confused, so involved,uialit I liad Gentleman were they, that while One that there mr were kept Gentleman made it appear from them 11, but a loss that there had been actually no saving at " been a savine• of four millions, another made it appear to the country—(Cheers)—and John, Bull endured alit 2he people were in this with calinness.—(Hear, h e ar.) Ile could not comprehend h ow a state of mi ser y, and Hon. G entlemen cared no t for their sufferines.—(Hear hear.) The p eo p le were hungry, and the 'House cheered. the State a ccoun t s we r e kept, and he trust e d t h at the Right Honourable Baronet, the moment a ff a i rs came into hi s h an d s , wou ld turn his intelli gent eye to those accounts and try to remedy the .anomaly. At all events, it appeared from the manner in which the public accounts were.kept, that they were entitled to no confidence. A vast deal had been said as to the want of confidence in Ministers. They had lost none of his con fidence, for a very simple reason, b ecause t h ey h a d never possessed it. He had taken them as his lion. Friend the Member for Bath' had done, because he could not get a better. He bad supported them* because -a better MORSTIN'G SUN could not be found.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) He trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would show himsel f entitled to the support of the Radical party, although he doubted it.—(Cheers.) He expected there would be but little difference manifested in the management of public affairs by the two parties contending for power. "Strange such a difference should be 'Twixt tweedle dum and tweedle dee." He believed that until the House of Commons should be differently organized, the people would not find a doctor to their liking. The House did not represent the people of the country. The millions who were imploring their aid were not represented in that House. Parties in that House represented their own interest, and that they well understood that, no one could deny. — In such a state of things, it was impossible to expect that any proper remedy could be applied. Palliative expedients would be resorted to, and they would loose the opportu nity of performing the only cure—a radical one. The Address, for which he felt compelled to vote, because he liked it better than the amendment, said the revenue ought to be increased. Now his opinion was that the expenditure ought to be diminished; it was extravagant to a degree of folly ; and the extravagance in every public department, while the people were borne down to the earth by distress, was monstrous,-inhuman, and disgusting.—(Cheers.) The Crown itself was costly. Now was the Crown main tained for the benefit of the people or of a party? — (Cheers.) He felt himself compelled to ask that ques tion after the language held by the Hon. Member for Manchester, that the Ministers were acting in opposition to law and the Constitution by remaining in office ; and after the language which they had just heard from the Hon. Member for the University of Cambridge, who had stated that the Ministers had been condemned in the last House of Parliament, and stood there for judgment, so that that House was to condemn without having heard the evidence.—(Cries of " No, no." Was that denied ? Were they not called on to pass judgment -- they, a new House of Parliament, having nothing in common with the old one?—(Cheers.) For -himself, he had always Oleen an advocate for monarchy, but it ap peared to him that the mode of action adopted by Hen- Gentlemen opposite was in defiance of the monarchical principle. Gentlemen opposite had taunted them wit h being anarchists, republicans, and haters of monarchy He would tell those Hon. Gentlemen that they were de ceived—that they we re en ti re ly m i s t a k en as to the views which were entertained by the constitutional Radica l party in this country.—(Laught er f rom t h e Tory benches.) Surely they would gi ve hi m cre di t f or s tating that which he believed to be tr ue . H e gave t h em c redit for sincerity, and he claimed th e lik e cred i t f or himself. He could state that the cons tit ut i ona l Ra di ca l party in this country was as s t r e nuous ly an d consc i en tiously attached to the Monarchy as an y G en tl eman in that House. It was attached also to th e Ch urc h o f England ~,„! it would sacrifice any institution r a th er th a n see the Church sacrificed.—(Hear, hear.) " Ou r d e sire," 55 " - the Hon. Member, " is exactly the same as yours, t maintain our institutions, but we adopt a different no de of maintaining them.—(Laughter.) You attempt to maintain our institutions by the few ruling the 111aq -- we attempt to maintain them by the many ruling the few. Our object is to strengthen these insti tutions by surrounding them with the affection, love, and regard of the people, and we dread your acting in defiance of the people, because it would be fraught with danger."—(Loud cheers.) Now what had passed en that occasion ? The Queen, in the exercise of her un doubted prerogative, had discharged the late Parliament , and a new one had been returned. Wh we re they to assume, without a single vote, that Ministers had lost the confidence of the House ? It was unpleasant, ha knew, to hear these remarks.—(Hear, hear.) lie w as desirous only of stating the facts, without giving offence to any party. The Queen had made. a speech to the new 'Parliament. What was the answer returned? That they would not receive the Speech as from the pre" sent Ministers. Had a Radical pursued such a course he would have been told that he was treating the (Vett with personal disrespect, that he was acting in defiance of the wishes of the Sovereign, and thereby endangering the Monarchy. When the Right Hon. Baronet met the Parliament in 1834 he acknowledged that there R' _ hat overwhelming majority against him, and with knowledge he met the Parliament. But did the n or u at once say that they would not give him a trial, teu_ they send back the insolent answer, " You have -sent Minister here in whom we have no confidence ; take him back again."—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baron et on that occasion said he felt it to be his first and para a o s a e mount duty to maintain the post which had been e.con fided to him, which he did not seek, but could not d cline, " and," said the Right Hon. Baronet, " I call upon you not to condemn before you have heard—(llear,from the Ministerial Benches)—to listen to all the measures shall propose; to amend them if they shall be defective, to extend them, if they fall short of your expectations , but at least to give me the opportunity of presentingo them, that you yourselves may correct and d is p os e them."—(Hear, hear.) Now that was the precept; but. Y what was the example ? The Right Hon. Baronet con tinued in office for three months longer, and the cir cumstances which attended his continuance presented ° very striking contrast to what was now passing.—( l V, hear.) Was it meet, was it prudent, that an immense o n_,_ of Members should come into the House pledged to _ l t against the Ministry, and against the wishes of the Crgwll' (Ironical cries of " Hear, hear" from the Tory benches.) Was this holding out to the country that kind of mo nition which it was desirable to communicate to a large and fickle people like the English ? Was it prudent not to give the Ministry an opportunity of bringing for ward their measures ?—(Bear, hear--. and laughter.) very. much amused, but ho could clearly perceive that the laugh was not an ao-ree ble one. There was a very unpleasant feeling lurking beneath the smiling face---.(Hear, hear,. from the Mi nisterial benches)—and he did not believe that • when the Honourable Baronet came to reflect , deeply, upon what he- had been forced to do by the • eager expectants of place and office, his own mind would suggest a complete and ample justification of that bourse. The difficulties of the present position of affairs were great. The errors which the Ministers had committed were numerous and enormous.—(Laughter from the Opposition benches.) He (Mr. Wakley) had had an opportunity of witnessing their conduct, and knew what a golden opportunity they had lost of serving therr coun try. They would not listen to his (Mr.W.'s) advice. He had prescribed without a fee in 1837.—(Great laughter.) He did not wait for a fee, for he considered that he was fairly called in to the consultation when his constituents had sent him to Parliament,—(Hear, hear.) He barely • prescribed three small powders. The Right Honourable Baronet had got 326 pills by his side.—(Laughter.) He (Mr. Wakley s) medicine would have rendered the Right Honourable Baronet great service—it was simple and appropriate—(Renewed laughter)—but he feared that the medicine which he had then in his pea session, and which he would be compelled to swallow, would very soon remove him from the seat he occupied. —(Long continued laughter.) He wished the Noble Lord (J. Russell) well out of his difficulties, the more especially as he was now one of tho metropolitan dema gogues.—(Laughter from the Opposition.) Well, it seemed that there was to be a change in the Government —that they were to have new parties in power. If the Right Hon. Baronet came into power, he should have no factious opposition from him (Mr. Wakley). As an humble individual he would give his host consideration to every measure which he should submit to the House, and if he proposed a good measure, it sho uld have as cordial, as warm, and as hearty a support from him as though it came from the sincerest Radical Reforme r in the kingdom.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) The Right Hon. Baronet had undoubted capacity—was a man of vast ability. He (Mr. W.) knew more of the Right Hon. Baronet's ability than some men in the House, for he had made a phrenological survey 41: his head laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman possesse d the intellectual power which was so essential in the min ister . (Loud :--(L of a great country. If he exercised his own judgment without control—(Hear, hear, from the Liberal Benches) —entirely free from the misrepresentations which might be addressed to him,—from the instigations.whieh might be offered to him—he would render enormous benefit to his country. It was in his power, and God grant that it might be exercised ; it was his (Mr. W's.) m ost earnest desire. But if the Right Honourable Bennet should yield to mischievous advisers, and should ncs exercise those abilities with which he was endowed, he (Mr. Wakley) would be ready to form one of a national party whose energies would be exerted for the best interest of the people. The wars in which this country had been engaged :had entailed upon it s an enormous debt. It was not great or magnanimous hand hand down such a debt to posterity. The Govern unless we were engaged in continuenntryl would of England declared, forty or fifty years since, h a f t their estates would be sacrificed, that the d e e still possessed country had not been invaded, amolotoi y_ desolate. This ho w been con be invaded, and they themselves lore ou prietors to do justice t their estates. But a debt f 500,0 t 0; 0 0 the industry of d e traeted, which was to be paid Was. there fromon• Baronet should cam Bat supposing the Right if p th e o o s p e le w . lio ne v4 colleaguesie into P 7such a debt.—(ll e „,. ° N between his the Right, Hon. Gentleman the a e s r it e ed sut t ff h oe e rb l i a ne n g ded and the Right Hon Member for North Member for Dorchester, . Baronet I t it he of finance, or between the Right on the question a o n ffic a e g ' ree w m h e o nt were Baronet and the to the Lancashire relative. g overnment of. Ireland? I not be sensible to what w • • They con as passing Sister Noble Lord Kingdom. There was a demand country for in thatrepeal of the Union. was sorry that such H e Amore disastrous ma d e , A event could not take place. Still h e wished to know what course the Right Hoe. Baronet would pursue. What was the languao of fo u r distinguished statesmen w h en the Catholic Re l ief Bill was before the House? It should be remem bered that to obtain that Bill 300,000 voters were disfranchised. The four statesmen to whom lie referred were the Duke of W Lord e ngton,Lyndhurst 'the Right Hon. .Baronet opposite, and the Noble Lord 9 the Member for North Lancashire. The language of the Duke of Wel lington on the second reading of the Bill was as lo:lows:—" There is no doubt that after this mea sure has been adopted the Roman Catholics can have no separate interests as a separate sect, for I mm sure neither this House nor the other Houso of Parliament will be disposed to look either upon Roman Catholics or on anything which concerns Ireland with eny other feelings than those with which they regard England and Scotland. The Hon. Member then read the statements of Lord Lyndhurst, Sir R. Peel, and Lord J. Russell, and ob served that he hoped what he had referred to would be useful to the Right Hon. Baronet in forming his new Ministry.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He would now trouble the House with a few remarks with reference to what had fallen from. the Hon. Member for Bath. That Hon. Member had praised, with more consistency than discre tion, the Poor-law Amendment Act.—(Bear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Wakley) with consistency, ard, he hoped, with discretion, designated that measure as most objectionable, and he believed that it was more obnoxious to the kindly feelings of the people than aaY law that had been enacted by Parliament. He (Mr. I i ' 1 I , 'J OI Ad the ()I to , Th Ito (ric ti tie t. _.. itrr( all Poli be I to e der, Peck] w as ' Th,