The Sun. — London, England, 1819-02-02 00:00:00

in,•7" Palatable t o th e P u bli c. It was easy to "e a clamour against such an A c t= —inuch more easy than to fran,- it. He not only entered his w~~e' t a gainst the d oc t r i nes h e ld out by the iy Alderman, but he 'promised his support t° e measure when qualified by the requisite tl 'len : 1111 "ts• The worthy Alderman talked atonal ii i w a erifice Of property to the amount of 15 mil , 'o"sterlin He would be glad to learn if the la Ildilinos tvZid have been saved, had the present 11 ,: t been carried into a law ?. His worthy Friend 4", wandering widely, he was afraid, trom , the t i l a ' state of the question ; and Mr. Broug nani li ° , 64 't it absolutely necessary that his observa %: ). ' s ' however lunch be might regard him, shou ld I,,,liteCsot.forth to the public, without at least his l lt !,4 h! Petition was ordered to lie on the table. t i c : e • Alderman WAITHMAN persisted in his opi )s; and moved, that. there be laid before the f 11 1 14 e an Account of the Number and Names 0 he Persons discharged by the InsolVent Bill, de ft amount the amount of their Debts arid Dividends . v la the latest period.—Ordered. nit WESI`mINSTER HUSTINGS 1311. L. toy ..CouRTENAY presented the Report of the asd fi e rier'- upon the West m in s t er H ust i ngs Bill , Mr, rd that the saute b e rea d to - morrow. bra lititaa hoped that the Hon. Member would tta ve ll .!ess the reading of the Bill, for he co d n e: le q there were sonic circumstances that I) :l ' i ltt r ed i nquiry. • He - expected to have several lies, l . l "s to present Oil the subject, and he be iata..,' be should be enabled to prove that there o tle - v e , a antple funds with which the expellees t thelll,'l.l;it'etions ought to be paid. The nature o f yi blurt now endeavoured to be hurried throu gh triiise ‘,,,,,, hostil e to the principles oft th o, We Constitution, and by which the Cityf ro th t ss 51411snster was rendered totally different . Y oth e ' 1 f t r place in the United Kingdom. Upon ''tat • of three Candidates latit:, occasion, one the . espy ee.ttcharaed 9001. as his proPcnt'n. ~,,e 4 'P' which, according to this Bill, world th,:ii t•o'e imposed ;mon every Candit i l i ate of f i e t a h l e i 1, 4 4 e r, iler for that City. He believed the Z'il . da Pter of Westminster, under whom the i, i e t i , 4 p et ed, mssessed ample funds which shou ld \ r i )a t' l l l• ; ° Ptial l ed to this purpose ; he therett o 7 l s,!te r : t . lost befor e the Bill was passed, it . 7o 1 b Th ". 4 " l to a Conimittee for further inqu iry . a 17;11, The. ", c l• GREY BENNPT said, that in . 161,0 . .. t. "'-a u - ' 4 . 1 1 wits ',lvry on the eve of expiring, hat Ca,;(4,isrled, havin g for . its object to regulate the 1; " of the Election. As for the exp , ... , r i 7 h es t tint 1)0 1 ille l'i the Candidates, it e, Is est . 1 ' S ' ll°- a measure was intended to prevent any k s.;'' ' ' ''fi Zi f ront motives of obstinacy or resei,t -"t did .- e xtend the utmost per iod. ssed poll to the l '' know Dean and Chapter.posse .‘- 11 b, 14 ` t s t h, A; , tlw he aL iliti lit a 1 - cable to soc o purpose, nor was riots 4 ite„s t ". 4 with ~,,,, l aw that imposed the exp_e He 4111;;Itli*Itlie Election uPon'the I-Igb Bailiff. Ilttlve ' 4 , elt 'd that the Act might be renewed for L'ateentils 1 rer ttitlt'iltiottwata o sa n t'd, it was , incumbent upo n the for Elections ; tt), N t C,, ‘ P r ovide a proper place that the expences the 1 1 t, li cnirrary to e ke 'a t. I (l)ciii the l u n s L e ate. He would ask Candidate. ther the doubt that was .41.rpt4)„t'rti til.,tiernaill„'," f unds e tinder the confront 'as -"st, ' "Ptr ''''''' . n ot a Sll ffi Ci , of rea ils - anti Chapter was 41 1 111 ' 44 h ' I ' Imderate delay bhould be ac e4l.'rt l'c 1 a ll t found that no sach funds ter, e 'th e n , should 'e conceived the expences should be o r h(' n Ile of ‘Vestininster. Uri c, th ese Y _ the inhabitants h lzi,4,4,titiciitiostatices,i-i-ee reading of the Bill eLii" l'ilV. It) Pr" i s ss t erved, he thbu g nt it w ' luld usvat:lir:44).r t ht:e l3 x7:n o ce - s to fall on the inhabitants ; , i t C " to bitn, that they should be defrayed 0 14It f..,3nditlateS. qi t el: '. W YN'tIR could not see dat,,l'hces should be any reason wh y . paid either by the Candi -14 ii %-r the High Bailiff; both acted in obedience 5, 1 .'e .aie„, - . „ High Balla' would t iii t i, i h $ writ, and the .1 LI e to a fine, it he did not pay obedience to d tor th e et;tl,oo,ght, a s the expences were inctitire :,.4e,„hcnent of the represented, there should r be • - iti s ' ,, e , - -' tax levied throughout the City of IN est tre,, ' t '''' for that purpose, who, in that case, could Nisa(l?""oatient building for the business. ,. . • ~tl, ,1 degas Il TENNYSON, Member for Grimsby .: 0t0,, i ,i 'ai Candidates for Westminster welt, Ites,ft forward against their consent, the ex kr° should ht, home b y the parties. , . Ititt, :bahatast said, he himself telt the difficulty; tirel,,Peet to the Bill, he confessed himsel f . en- i 44' Ignurant of its provisions, and lie believed L i tlf e o 41 ere few much better informed than him- L l ' lie,: he subject, There was but one partien- Re ~, -last submit to the attention of the House: alst,„4li ignorant of the law on the subject, and it ''' , d r, 1 • • belbl e that, if tile , Al t iti ... . ton quite intxp ~ , I la t , 4,,ft could recover his expenses by an ae* A ct St oil law, what - reason ex i sted for any further The th e e subj ect ? .. 1 41. e i U"n• G BONNET, --Why, because the 11V iiii s hortly expire. 11 41 1 „,' 1-/Etamata eontioned.--If then the Law i 6 It•i ti% "` to expire, that is the strongest argument to lkf -e, and not to proceed ill a hasty manlier ; it , IN ~ , % • " be giving it the effect of an ex post facto vr Th, , the don. G. B ENNET said, be merely proposed 4oe e h ttot tance of th e A ct for one year ; it did )I t e% i r any r er,es emblance to an ex post f acto law; 1 ) ,I "lem if he would refer to the Statute co t ' (bight inform himself of its nature. He did t i„ er ceive any cause for delay ; as to the Yeti sito which an Ho n . M em b er had alluded,lie tt,„beved he should he enabled to give a.satisfac al,,,,4osWer to them, and he felt the more confi -01;i because lie had had an interview with one Lt: Principal Petitioners. 1 1 1 , tv" AeHarateTota proposed, that instead of l itir r i t ()1d '' litetdaY,'' the Bill should be read a tole on Fr: l' • next. A ir u , a 4)• nex 3 ht e (; ' SUMNER asked whether the Honour ' tile „eitletnan would consent to the renewal of 1)111 until the Ist of April, 180 t Ce,; l l e "On. C. BasztauT replied, that the Hon. (14t.tsetusti had selected rather an unfortunate day i ti :e. terminatio n ; he would, however, agree to N'r.n.g it to the 1 5th of May ' e‘,„duChata expressed himself surpr i sed at the 0ta , ,,,, L4 4 the Hot]. Gentleman. Upon other ?Asal c , u3i 3 he was the fi rst to institute inquiry, anti Y 4) contend agaiust the course be had adopted ; for what was the present proceeding but " getting the Bill passed, and inquiring . after wards ?" The Bill was then ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. BANK RESTRICTIONS. Mr. S. WJRTLEY presented a Petition from certain Traders, Manufacturers, and persons re siding in Leeds, stating, they conceived the pre sent was not a convenient season for the resump tion of Cash Payments by the Bank of England ; that such a measure would, be prejudicial to the trade of the country, affect the rates of Pxchange against this country, and praying that its consi deratinn might be postponed until a future period. Mr. TIERNRV wished to be informed whether this Petition was the , result of a public -meeting, because he had received a letter from Leeds com plaining that such a petition had been handed about privately;. and as he understood Bankers were concerned in the matter, it was easy to con ceive that persons who had received accommoda tions might be influenced to sign such petitions. He wished, as be understood some other Peti tions were to be presented, that they would be ontained at the present time, because he would examine whether they were not exact copies of each other. Mr. S, WORTLEY S31(1, the Petitioners were per-- sons of respectability, and the Bankers had no concern whatever in the business. Mr. TIERNEY thought the names of some of the Petitioners were similar to the Bankers of that city ; perhaps the Hon. Gentleman could in form him who those persons were. Mr. S. WORTLEY replied, they are sons of the bankers. Mr. TIERNEY thanked the Hon. Gentleman for communicating more information than he ex pected,—The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. CUTLERY BILL. Mr. S. WoRTLEY brought in a Bill to regulate the Cutlery Trade.—Read a first time, and or dered to be read the second time on Wednesday next. GENERAL GOURGAUD. Mr. DOUGLAS, for the purpose of complaint, wished to be informed of the particulars of the : , rres! of General Gourgaud lately in this country, and the cause of his sudden expulsion to the Con tinent. The General complained that he had been refused a heajn;.-; before the Council as he had earnestly solicited; and that he had experienced the llost ernel usage in respect to his papers, &c. Mr. CLlvr, (Unoer Secretary of State) would no' enter into the minutes of the case, as it would be i;ng up their attention to little purpose. He would merely assure the House, that no appeal los been made 121,e manner represented for a hearing before the Council: Those who had been entrusted with the. arrer &c. were desired - to convl, the foreigner ev-: - v indulgence consistent with the naturt of the Act of Parliament. From the persons vvito had attended on the occasion, he had received information that the person al luded to had never solicited fur a bearing before the Council. He hod only required to be brought befor- Magistrate. His papers had been trans mittd to him act ording to the address given by himself. It haft been illiberally reported, that the seals of the r ape! s been broken open, and other unnecessary indignities exercised. He, however, cwdd assure the House, that there was no truth in such an assertion. The whole pro gress of conveyance of those papers had been carefully traced, and the most satisfactory an 7 swers had been received. Communications bad been made front Cuxhaven and other places, and the same satisfactory answers received. It was (idly ascertained that the port-folio of the fo reigner had been delivered, to himself personally, with the seals unopened. Mr. DOUGLAS wished to know if any impro prieties had been taken at the Foreign Office ? Mr. Guys knew of no improprieties—unless, for the better security, an additional cover to the Papers could be construed into such an act. The business was then dropped. OXFORD PETITION. The Order of the Day tor resuming the adjourn ed debate respecting the Oxford Petition having been read on Mr. Wynne's Motion, .Sir A. Ploorr stated, that the Petition having been printed, all must be acquainted with its na ture ; considering himself in the saute situation as if he were called upon to deliver a judicial opi nion, he should not hesitate to declare that, he re garded it as an Election Petition, for it com plained of an improper and corrupt interference in the return of a Membur. This Petition. was now in the possession of the House, and - the House had no discretion whatever on the subject, but must act as the law required. The 10th of his Majesty prescribed the mode to be adopted on such occasions, and from that .mode it was impos sible to depart. To allow the form of the Peti tion to be altered, and to admit that it was re presented with vario intuitu, would be a great evasion of that Act, highly to be depreciated. He did not mean to deny to the House the power of punishing offenders and yindi'eating its privileges, either by its own acts, or by instituting suits at law ;- but the present Petition fell under a parti cular Act, according to the provisions of which its merits tnuSt be tried. It mould therefore be impossible for the House to agree with the pre sent motion, which was, that the Petition lie on the table; but should that motion be withdrawn, as he trusted it would, then the regular order would be made as usual in cases of Petitions com plaining of undue returns. Mr. s IjENMAN concurred in considering the pre sent as an Election petition. He had thought that it might have been allowed to be withdrawn, in order to be presented in a different shape. He should have no objection, however, to withdraw the motion, that it lie on the table. BANKES conceived that no doubt could be entertained of the present petition being an Elec tion petition. The SPEAKER observed, that the Act of Parlia ment said, that when an Election petition had been presented, an order should be made for its consideration on some particular• day, and the parties prohibited trunk withdrawing it. As no ()icier of the kind had yet hzen made out, the pe tition might still be withdrawn, and another sewed before next Thursday. Mi. C. WYNNE contended, that the petition Was an Election Petition in point of substance, for the -facts statel, if established, would prove the agency o f the Noble Duke in effecting the return. He ..hould be sorry to see it,withdrawn in order to bring *mother forward in its stead, which should be of a different nature, as the subject would then he referred to a jorLdietion where witnesses would not be examined tiro) oath. Mr. C. TENNYSON contended that the petition seas not an Election Petition, but merely called on the House to vindicate its own privileges.— The facts asset ted could not affect the return of the Honourable Member for Oxford, unless a connexion was proved between him and the Noble Duke, so as to show that the latter had been his agent. He was convinced thfit the lan guage of the petition was so framed as to avoid bringing the return into question. If that was the intention of the petitioners, to refer the petie lion to a Select Committee would make it fall to he ground, as they would not enter into the r•e cognizatrces re►luired. He thought it therefore desirable that it should be referred to a Commit tee of Privileges. An Election Committee would not be bound to make any report ; and in a case like the present, be thought that it was of import ance that a report should be produced. Mr. BATHURST concurred with what had ap peared to be the general sense of the House. The Petition was clearly an Election Petition: If the facts asserted were proved, the Noble Duke must certainly be viewed in the light of an agent; and if it were shewed that the return had been obtained by bribery, the Select Committee would report it void. As there appeared no doubt of the nature of the Petition, the House had no other course to take-than that determined by the Act, and the Petition roust go to the Tribunal fixed for its consideration. 'The question that the Petition lie on the table was then put from the Chair and negatived. The SPRAKER then suggested the propriety of entering a Resolution upon the Journals, before recording the- decision of tire House, to state the motion which had been made, the adjournment of the debate, and that it had appeared to the House that the Petition was an Election Petition. Mt.BAtitus immediately moved a Resolution:to the effect, that tl►e Oxford Petition did appear to be a Petition complaining of an ►endue return for the said city, which was agreed to ; and on ace. cond moti►►n by the same Hon. Member, the Pe tition was or:lered to he taken into consideration on the 9th of March next. CARE OF HIS MAJESTY'S PERSON. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR Of the Ex- CHEQUER, the second reading of the Bill provid ing for the care of his Majesty's Person was fixed for next Thursday. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.—Agreed to.-14e then moved that the Army and Navy Estimates, and the Exchequer Bilk, be referred to the said -Committee ; which was also agreed to. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. NAVY ESTIMATES. Sir G. WARRRNDER should only state, in moving . tbe Estimates for the Navy, that the number of seamen would be the same as last year ; yet a con siderable saving bad taken. place in that branch of the public expenditurei and that saving had been effected by placing the whole of the Naval Force kept up in a state of activity. which supplied the deficiency of numbers and rendered their increase unnecessary. • lie then moved, that a force not exceeding 20,000 men, including 6,000 marines, be employed in his Majesty's sea service' for thir teen lunar months, commencing on the Ist of January, 1819. Mr. ROBART3 did not mean' to oppose the Re solution, hut should take this opportunity of in quiring whether any measure was in contempla tion to diminish, if not remove altogether, the evils of impressment ? He considered the present period most propitious fot.sneh an improvement. Sir G. WARRENDBR admitted that the' question was one of great importance, but it also teas one on, which the lion. Member could not expect him to give any other answer, than that it was a point on which Government were willing to do all in their power, but without encouraging the least expectation that it was possible to dispense with an ancient system, the benefits of which suffi ciently overbalsnced its evils.' Effective measures, however, had been taken to ameliorate the condi tion of the sailors, and Among the rest a registry of seamen had been adopted, which gave the means of easily assembling a better kind of force than formerly. - He then proposed the following 'grants, which were agr i eed to : For wages for 20,000 men for a year, at 21. 3s. 6d. a month,' prr man For , vietunlling the said force for the same period, at 21. 3s. 4d. a month per man • . L. 410,000 For clothing and wear and tear, and 91,0001. for ordnance on buardthe ships kept on actual service L. 532,000 ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMRRSTON intended to apply at pre sent for only' one million on account of the Army Estimates, the whole of which would probably be found not much to exceed, if they did at all, the sum of three millions. . lic then proposed a grant of 1,000,000/. on account, for defraying the charge of the land service at home and abroad, With the exceptions of the regiments serving in the Mediterranean anil the East Indies. Mr. CALCRAFT would not oppose the grant, but would be glad to - know how the Noble Lord had proceeded when his vote wa3 exhausted, which must have been on the 25th of December last, and how be had been enabled to continue to pay the army without the aid of Parliimcnt ? The vote ended nn the 25th of December 1818, and we were now in February 1819 ; so that more than a month had elapsed since the last grant must have become exhausted. The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER rose to answer the Honourable Gentleman, as his question applied to every other brt.neh of the public service, as well as to the payment of the Army. Although the year for which the grant had been made had expired, yet the whole of the money had not then been expended; and as long as any of the sups granted, whether for the army, the navy, or the ordnance, or any other department, were not entirely applied, the Executive Government took upon itself to apply them to the particular services fur which ti,cy had been voted, till fresh supplies had,,been oh. tained. In fact, most of the services were Paid, not prospectively, but retrospectively, so that at the end of the year there were various surphissee applicable to their respective departments. Thus, the grant for 1818 had commenced in December, but had not begun to be issued till the middle of February. He'could see - no irregulatity in the course pursued.—The grant was then agreed. to. EXCHEQUER BILLS AND THE BANK. The CHANCELLOR of thC.'- EXCHEQUER moved that a sum not exceeding 24,924,3001. be granted to his Majesty to pay off and discharge the Ex chequer Bills issued under two Acts of the . last Parliament, authorisin,.; the emission 'of 11,000,0001, and 34,000,0001. in Exchequer Bills. Mr. GRENFELL should seize this opportunity of inquiring whether the Right lion. Gentleman bad entered into any arrangement with the Bank te specting the loan of three millions without jute- , rest, made by the Batik in former years to the Government, in consideration of the balances of public money which remained in their 'hands.— This was a fact known of all. lie believed that that arrangement had ceased last April, so that instead of deriving any advantage' from the accumulation of public Money in ithe bands of the Bank, the Country paid to that establishment tour per cent. interest on those three millions, or 120,0001. per annum, whilst the Bank held an enormous mass of public property, totally unproductive to the public, but not so to its holders ! He should ,take another occasion of calling the attention of the House to so important a subject, unless the Rittht lion. Gentleman should be able to state that some ar rangement %vas now neguciating betw6en the Bank and . the Government to remove so just a ground of complaint. . _ _ The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHEOnER had not thought it nrcessary to enter into an explanation on this point, as the period when the transactions of the Government with the Bank were to conic before the House was so close at hand. With respect to the three millions advanced by the Bank, and _continued since last April by Act of Parliament at 41 per cent. interest, anti the ba lances of publie money, both had been a subject of discussion between his Majesty's Government and the Sank. Propositions had been made for applying the whole of the latter to the public ser vice. But those balances themselves had been greatly diminished by the reduction of the pub lic expenditure and other causes. They (lid not amount last year to more than one halt what they had been at periods to which the Hon. Gen tleman had alluded. As to the three millions in question, no interest had yet been paid upon them, and whether some arrangement could be made of a retrospective nature remained to be ascertained. He should now repeat the answer which he had given to the Hon. Gentleman who had put him in mind of the sepayment of the eight millions due to the Bank, as that answer seemed not to have been correctly understood in some of the public prints. lilhat he had sated was, that out of the eight millions five hail already been paid,,and three remained, but provision had been made for those by Parliament on the revenue of the year. GRENFELL expressed his satisfaction at the intelligence given by the Right Hon. G'entlernan 'Tie CHANCELLOR Of the ESCHEQUER 'MCI al ways expressed his.readiness to take up the sub ject of the balances of public money, but he could Dot do it without the concurrence of the Bank, who, on the present occasion, he was happy to be able to state, had volunteered their aid. Mr. GRENFELL was OA that his object bad been ttaincti• any how. Mr. P. MoOtte repeated his former argument, that the three millions -lent by the Bank without interest were taken out of-the public money, since they were lent on condition that the balances of public money, amounting to no less than eleven millions, should he lett in the hands of the Bank. The Chancellor of the .Exchequer had now shown what use could be.made of those ha- • lances. He had shewn that what was deficient in one department was paid out of the surplus of another.—(No, no, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and various parts of the Honse.)— But.instead of issuing five millions for the service of the Army, why did he not take them front those balances ? He was glad, however, that his Ma jesty's Exchequer seemed to have at last come to their senses, and to have commenced to make a proper and economical use of the grants made by the House, always liberally, and often profusely. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to correct a misapprehension which the Hon. Gentle man seemed to have made. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had never said that the surplus of one department had been applied to the service of another. However proper or economical such a plan might be, it would not be authorised, and he should therefore consider it a breach of his . duty. All that the Executive Government had considered itself at liberty to do, was to apply any part of the sums granted by Parliament for any service, and which might remain unexhaested, to that partieular service, beyond the time for which it had been voted. 'Tie House Resolution was then agreed to. The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. Mr. Mannox was understood to postpone his motion relative to the Game Laws in Wales till to•morrow. FERRETS AND MENAGERIES. LAwSON rose, pnrsuant to his notice, to ask leave to bring in a Bill for the protection tat ferrets, and other animals generally considertd ,wild. Honourable Gentlemen opposite might perhaps ask him why he advocated this neglected class of creatures, and say that it was titiono,b a sort cf fellow-feeling, and that he wasferce nature himself. His object was not to increase the provi. sin u s of our penal code, and he would briefly state the case relating to ferrets. A man had been tried for stealing several ferrets from a hutch ; and as the Jury were doubtful whether those animals could ho considered as private pro perty or not, the point had been reserved for the twelve Judges. These, though of the sante num her, were not starved into unanimity as a Jury, and decided that the ferrets were not private property. Now, he contended that a ferret