The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-02 00:00:00

MORNING EIinTION. ttistinguiihed ;tielf, had entirely. disproved the state mentlwhieb had been made in reference to the low state of thi navy. Assertions bad been made, not only in the House, but out of it, that the navy had degenerated. He well recollected the blame f iat was cast upon the Board of Admiralty. It was . said that they bad neg lected theii" duty, and that in their bands the navy of this country bad dwindled. Against such charges the late-events afforded a much better defence than any which could be made by the Admiralty. He did not chim for them any grace for having seat out one of the roost efficient fleets that had ever come into action ; all be asked was that the House and the country would do theni justice, and acknowledge that they had not been unmindful of their duty. The Hon. Member concluded by rao.,ing that a sum not exceeding 29,6941. be granted to her Majesty for defraying the excess of expenditure lot the year ending March 31, 1840: Sir GEORGE CLERK regretted that he had not paid more attention to the statements of the Right Hon. Gentlemen—( Hear,: hear)—because no more important subject could eorce under the, consideration of the Houser_ and the country than the estimates now before it, snore especially as they were called upon to make novel the deficiency of former estimates, arse when I heal ,. was about t) be submitted to the Committee estimate; cousiderebly exceeding in amount any that bad beanbrought before the House for the last twenty years'--(H ear , Lear)—when they must be considered riot as id a state of peace, hut as if winding up the aohounts atter a state of war.—(Hear, bear.) He r e ropeeed to confine his observations before the Com mittee to the vet: now before it, and one of a precisely sitndar nature which followed it, with regard to a defieieecy in former estimates. He was precluded from going, into any general observations on the esti mates foe the preset.t year, because that must form the sdhieet- of a calculation upon the amount of the naval foren 'which might be required under the circumstances in ,which the country might be placed. He felt it im possible to er.t :r upon this subject in the absence of the 'Ala - lister of the Crown, whoie duty it was to furnish 'them with information. He must confess that when he was called upon, tO vote 43,000 men for the naval ser vice of the ceem.try, he felt some surprise that the Se cretary of Sate for Foreign Affairs was net present to calker an explanation on the subject to the Committee. He felt also another difficulty, the Hon. Member : for Kilkosany having made a Motion for the production of a most important document-, and without it he felt it irepossible to form a very correct estimate as to whether that amount of force called for by the Right Hon. Gentleman was adequate to the service of the country or not. He wished aiso to call their attention to the circumstance of the under-estimates of termer years. That was ti point which tee House should look at with greet caution at ell times, because, if they brought for ward the supplemental et tirnatee, they lost the advan tage of that house heving control over the expenditure. It was a different thing to refuse their assent to the es timate, in wl ich the whole policy of the country might be .cake I into.qesstion, and to refuse the payment den expense already incurred. He was willing 'to admit that it was impossible to estimate every contingency that might accrue in the naval service. ( Hear.) The whole of the naval votes had been, up to last year, sufEe'eat to cover the entire of the expenses,. Ile confessed that I.e was not. sethfied with the explanation which had been given by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Adiniralty, both with regard to the deficiency of the year 1839, and the deficiency for the year 1840. In the first place, he (Sir G. Clerk) Was disposed to think that the deficiency of 1839 was eonsideral ly higher than the sums shown to be taken. The balance stated was 29,600/., for which the vote was now taken ; but the balance of the former year remained unexplained, especially upon the ground.e stated to the Admiralty, namely, that the accounts be longing properly to the year 1839 for the Cape of Good Hope and Trincomalee had not been received. One of 'the ways in which the deficiency was sought to be made up was by making a demand on the Tie isury for the exnenses incurred by the insurrection in Canada. Now, he wished to know on what grounds the naval d pertinent rratie such claims? The first item in these claims was for wages of sea- I men end marines. He was desirous of knotting I for what seamen anJ marines theso demands were made ? The deficeicy the estimates for the year 1839 wae, instsa, lof behig 26,600/. as the vote now place I in the Chairman's hands showed, really above 70,000/. Tim' eat a very important deficiency, and one for which, he confessed, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Ad:niftily had net assiened any suf ficient reason. There was extreme inconvenience in coming forward at to ions times and voting certain sums for the navy at one period, and certain sums et anethrr period. To couple the Naval to the Supple mentary Estiina'es was thg way to make a great de- I ficiency in the estimates for the present year, The only explanation that could be offered by the Naval D •pertenent for brieging them forward in this way was, that the reason for some of the estimates could not heva been foreseen. But he said they must have known it, or, at least, that they ought to have known it—(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp, and laughter)—and to have; seen that the Supplemen tal Estimates they called upon the House t 3 N,te were perfectly adequate to the demands of the service. He (Sir G. Clerk) took occasion when tl:e Chancier of the. Excite quer brought forward his budget on the 15th of May last, to call his attention to the excess of expendituie of the navy at that period, nod to show him that by the account he had laid upon the tall,: of the House, it appeared that the naval de eartrreat b teeen the Ist of Aprd 1839 and Ist of April 1840 had received 300,000/. more than the sum voted for the services of ten years by the House, and he had asked him (the Chancellmr of the Exchequer) for some explanation, which, however, was not given. He (Sir G. Clerk) Lai stated that the consequence must be that sums must have been taken from the estimates vutrd for the current year to provide for the excess of former years, and that the Right Honourable Gentleman would find the sums for the present year would not be suflicieat, and that there would 'be a very large deficiency of revenue as compared with the expemrture. He had moved on the 15th of that month for an account which. showed how that money had been provided. It appeared that in April 1839, there remained a balance of the votes of the former year of no less than 460,204/., the whole of which .sum was no doubt required to discharge expenses previously incurred, and properly belonging to the year in which the money was voted. Tee cavil department had required for their expenses 300,000/. more than had been voted for the purpose. Tee Admiralty seems to have kept the Treasury in the dalt as to the sum they would require, which he thought thi had no right to do ; or else the Chancellor of the Exchequer was wrong in not bringing under the notice of the House the increased excenditure of the navy. It appeared to him that the vicious departments of the State acted as if they were independent of each ether, and that no two were aware of another's proceedings. —(Hear, bean) There had been a gross blunder in the preparation of the estimates of last year. The number of men required to complete' the complement of the ships was 26,000, while the Admiralty proposed a vote for 24,000 only. The Noble Lord the Secre tary for the Colonies had toll them on that occasion, that he did not think any increased number of seamen would be required in consequence of the situation in which the country was placed. He (Sir G. Clerk) had been glad at the time to have heard that announce ment, but he found the House had been misled by it. The Noble Lord must himself Lave known that France had then refused to be a party to the settlement of the Eastern Question. When the supplementary estimates had been brought forward, the Noble Lord, on being asked whether the Govemment intended to send a reinforcement to the Mediterranean, answered that they did not, aid that we were not to have more ships in July than in January. A few weeks after, however, a tale vessel, the Calcutta, was commissioned for the Mediterranean. He thought therefore he was justified in saying that if the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the CiVonia, had been in communication with the Noble LOrd, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, it would have been impossible for him to make the statement which he had matins---(Hears hear.) With regard to. the the vote for 16.1 . ,500/., the Right Hon. I Gentleman, tn Secre tary to the Admiralty, had said that if the for it last et, r, they might hive excited theyhad moved suspicion of foseten Power:. He•thought, howev er, the: ,'f they ac cepted such a justification they would be laying down a very dangerous precedent. The Govern ment mig ht, in that case, bring forward low estimates, and, atter expenses had been incurred, they would have no power to refuse the payment of them.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He thought that was a dangerous principle, af fecting ono of the great privileges of that House, name y, the power of maintaining a control over the Exchequer. He did not think the Right Hon. Gentleman's explanation en that sub j• et had been satisfactory. The sum required might be called an e•fraate, but it was in reality a vote for a sum of money to make good the deficiency of last appeared on the f arce o f the estimates that year .they had It 28.700 amen, whilm there had beets only '27,450 voted. .A great increase would appear to have b d 3 in our navel force in the mont h of October,n me . the Howe t e Howe and Britannia had hem seat to the when ledite r. re tn. But surely our vessels ought at that time to have been at ful, comp enent, and they n.O t then have had es,ooo men. - Time fact was the Admiralty and the. Got ernrrient were afraid of the oppositio n of the Hon. Member for Kilkeeny—(Cheers)---who always objected to every increased expedditure. They ought to been laid the circumstances fully before the House at the time of moving the supplemental estimates of last y ear , but they had then kept out of sight a great part of the expenditure which bad been incurred. He thought they must also have kept the Chancellor of the Exclmequeri n the dark. Ile did not thitiLt L c sums now asked would be sufficie n t to cover the outstanding demands which et present exist e d: .He should ' like to know f rom •th e Ri g h t Hon. Secretary to the' Treasury why the accounts moved for by his Hen • • Friend the Member for Harwich had not yet b een laid on pcetant den:lent in di scussing these estimates. THE SUN: LONDON. TUESDAY, MARCH 2, 1841. s , Mr. R. GORDON.—The returns from which the ' account is to be made out have net yet been received. : Sir GEORGE CLERK would, then ask why the paper for which the Hon. Secretary had himself moved on the 3d February, a Return of the Debt of the Navy, had not yet been laid before the House ? He would frankly admit that in former times but little interest had been felt in that document, but it was now one of a most important character, and he • hoped no time would be lost in laying it upon the table. He did not know on what ground they were called upon to make up this deficiency. From the accounts laid on the table, it ap peared that on the 7th January there was a sum of 1,537,516/. to the credit of the Admiralty. Now the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty was bound to show why that sum had not been sufficient to cover the navy expenses that were likely to be incurred. That it would probably be insufficient he would admit, more particularly when he considered the large amount of wages due; bat they ought to have the amount before diem, in order to enable them to form a judgment on the subject ; and they ought to have further information before beim; carted on to vote those sums. He did not offer any opposition to the large amount of estimates for the present year, but be only asked to know the lemon why he was cered upon to vote the deficiencies which ought to have been provided for list year. He hoped ey should net see in the Navy Estimates what had so long been objected to in the Ordnance Estimates, a large and accumulating sum left unprovided for from year to year. The House should watch narrowly to prevent this. They would find that there was a large amount due for seamen's wages, which would have to he provided for when the ships came home. Last year the full amount had been voted, as appeared from the balance sheet, but that vote must have been absorbed under some other head, instead of being appropriated to the pay merit of wages when the ships should come home. It was clear, therefore; that any surplus that might be required to pay off the ships, would increase the diffi culties of the Admiralty. It might be possible that theie was some motive to induce the Admiralty to keep back a portion of the expenditure of the last year ; there might be some motive operating on the minds of her Majesty's Ministers which induced them to call upon the House to vote sums, large though they were, which would not be adequate for the purpose for which they were intended ; they had in fact drawn up such esti mates as they thought they should be able to carry without incurring the severe opposition of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he bad made out a prima facie case against the Admi ralty, of attempting to call upon the House to make good those deficiencies without further informetion. If the Government failed in giving a satisfactory apse er to the Committei', he should move that the two votes to which he had alluded should be postponed till further information was given. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that the Right Hon. Baronet had so mixed up several questions together as to render it difficult to grapple with his statements. He was not going to answer the Hon. Gentleman with re gard to those parts of his speech which related to the mode of keeping the aecoun.s of the navy. His Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, had stated the grounds upon which he asked for the balance of 29,6941. as he could add nothing to what his Hon. Friend hai stated on that subject. The Hon. Gen tleman, however, had gone on to speak of the amount of the balance which they proposed to take to make up the expenditure, and he had not been satisfied with taking that amount, but he had thought proper to discover that the reason why her Majesty's Ministers had adopted the course they had done was because they were afraid of the opposition of the Hon. Member for Kdkenoy. Now with respect to that supposition the Hon. Gentleman was completely mistaken ; it certainly was something like the course adopted by a former Lord " of the Admiralty in 1835, who had asked for estimates has than was necessary for the services of the year, but such were not the motives which actuated her Majesty's present Government. The Hon. Gentleman bad stated Nee/ truly, that at the time the estimates were brought forward last sear the Go vernment did not ask the whole amount required for the ships in commission, or d the reason of that was, be cause some of the ships were on their return home, and it might not be necessary to fit out other ships ;that was the real ease, and not as the Right Hon. Gentleman had supposed. At that time it was not supposed there would be a separation among the Great Powers of Eu rope, but in July the question was very much altered. Ia that month her Majesty's Government had agreed with certain great Powers of Europe to enter into a con s cation for the purpose of settling the affairs of the East ; one of the Great Powers, however, was not a party, but at the same time it was at first doubtful whether that Great Power would think it necessary to arm on account of its being separated from the other Great Powers. Unfortunately, and before the prorogation of Par Lament, it appeared that the French Government were determined to increase their navy, and it ther efore became necessary for her Majesty's Government to consider whetter they should immediately augment the forces, or suspend it t li further proceedings were taken. His impression was—and that impression was generally shared by the Government—that it at a time when there was great exasperation in France, whea there was an undue team; of resentment because this country had separated - front Fiance upon the Eastern question, and the utmost violence was displayed both in the press and generally throughout France in speaking of the conduct of England—if at such a time they had come down to propose to Parlament, without 'being certain that it would be required, a considerable augmentation of force, they could not have asked for it without stating serious reasons for so doing, and there might have been urged against the conduct of Government the hostile language add the alienated feelings of France. Why, if they had done so, he did not doubt that they should have obtained the consent of the House to the necessary augmentation of force. He did not doubt that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if he had chosen to divide the House, would base been in a small minority upon that occasion ; but what he did doubt was, whether if they had come down with such a case to ask for a con siderable augmentation of force, it would not have tended to increase and influence the exasperation then prevailing in France, and whether the increase of armament would not have led to hostilities between the two countries. For these reasons they did not propose any increase of force ; and it was not till alter the prorogation of Parliament, when it clearly appeared that there was a positive increase taking place in the French force, and an active equipment of s hi ps go i ng forward, that her Majesty's Government th ught it ne cessary to add to the naval force of this country. The Hon. Getleman bad said that there was a mistake in the accounts in reference to the time when the increase was made. Tae fact was, that the amount of force in the early part of the year had been so far below the amount which was voted, that the amount of money voted for the number of mew kept up in the early part of the year was sufficient for the payment of the force kept up in the latter end of the year, and, therefore, as regards the question of money—it was different as re gards the question of men—but as regeids the question of money, the wages proposed for there three months was sufficient to pay for the increased augmentation. He did not pretend to deny that in ordinary cases, and as a question of general policy, the Government would not be justified in making such an increase without the consent of Parliament. He agreed with tne Hon. Gentleman opposite, who was formerly so able and convincing in exposing the defects, the negli gence, and the irregularity of the Admiralty which preceded his coming into office, as to the constitutional rule to be observed in such cases. But the main—the real question which the Government had to consider was, how they might best preserve the peace of Eu rope. Whether they should; or should not, make them selves responsible-for the excess of 161:000/., was quite a secondary consideration. They wished to prevent the assembling of seamen on the one side, and the House of Commons of England on the other, from entertaining this question iii a spirit which might pos sibly have led to hostilities, and in pursuing this object they had not shrunk from the responsibility of having to ask Parliament for a suns of money which had not been regularly voted. Fin (Lord John Russell) was happy to say that in the main object they had succeed. . ed.—( Hear.) At that time there remained no diffor ence between France and England with respect to Mehemet Ali.—(Hear, hear.) That question, by the avowal of all parties, was courtly at an end, and there . fore they had the satisfaction of knowing that, although their course was open to objection, it had enabled them to avoid a collision with any of the other Powers of Europe. He would not pretend to answer the Hon. Gentleman upon the various topics which he had gone through, and with which long prac tice had made him intimately acquainted, but he had t h ou ght it necessary to make these remarks in explana tion of the cou rse which had bizdn that tsuthe Noble ed. Lord a dmitted mMrt.e lid the ij Alex traordinary said hew was sg .naturethat eof was the warranted by The Noble L or d c onsidered h . elf that responsibility. He placed, in taking upon nos the peculiar circumstances in which the country was PHouseNoble e Lord groundson t e a e t w po h l i t e it h , hadstated that h he did se. The Noble Lord • .by anddi differed rheed wouldentire I s y t t a f t r e o f rom the o tbe lity the Government _ means of taking upon b ad te themselves ainte I, t e h d i s t r h e a s p opneset peace e of Europe. He (Mr. Hume) d hed tha t t .he alt p og ea e e th e e e r. f. when the Noble Lord entered hit) that convention . o Enuerocpoen.tenEdeudroptheawtastheiny h p a e d rfe dd c i t esnt p ule c r ace at the 'time the t er h l a t 15th of July Th e ; F t r h e e n r c e h w h a ad s not bee the e increasing c re least as sigh eg : o e f : r a dts fleet- for many years, but the object of that was to maintain that position which was consistent with their station amongst the Powers of Europe. But what did the Noble Lord say ? He said—he (Mr. H.) supposed the Noble Lord referred to the Cabinet—they had main tained the peace of Europe at an expense of 160,000/. Why, good God 1 the estimate fer tbe present year was a million, in consequence of the Noble 'Lord's policy, and tea millions would not cover the expenses of that 'rash af fair. 'The Government had no right to enrol more men than were voted by the House, without its consent, and without such grouads as would appear to the country satic factory. Was there anything threatening the peace of England or of her Colonies, or of any part of the British Empire' ? Nothing whatever. It was , an i , oerrneddling in the affair of the Turkish Empire, under the plea of main taining its integrity. Instead, however, of doing that they had perpetuated the disturbances and the w esa of that; . 'Empire. He (Mr. Hume) had warned the Noble Lord again and again in the month of July, and when the veto for an additional number of seamen was called for he had objected to it. He knew what the plans of the Noble Lord were, and he knew his anxiety to intermeddle in the affai-s of the East, and tii , t if he had got the vote it would enable him to embroil himself. The House, howeve-, differed with him (Mr. Hume) and the vote was passed. In Jay it had come to bis knowledge that the treaty had been signed, and believing that it would involv e th e coun t ry i n war, he had asked _ the Noble Lord to state if that were so. The House' would recolleLt his answer. He could get nothing definite, but it amounted to a deuial.— (Hear, hear.) He asked if they were sending out troops, and he was informed that he was mistaken in his informa ti ni—a general answer. —( A laugh.) Now, it turned out that he had been correctly informed. Did the Noble Lord suppose that his conduct at that time would be other wi than offensive to France, and - risk the loss of the friendship and alliance of that country ? He was anxious to have the documents before him, because ho thought they would make out a clear case of neglect. The real truth was that the Noble Lord and the Cabinet knew well that they had determined on hostilities, every dock-yard was full, and muskets and seamen were sending out to stir up disaffection and rebel in the East, and give countenance to the interference of the British Government. On the 24th of July, when they hai determined on bos'i Wee, the House should not have le ea allowed to separate without infirmation on that subject. The Right Hon. Gerelernan spoke of his (Mr. H.'s) opposition, but he saw very well it had but little effect. If Hon. Members on the other side supported him it might have some effect, but when he received sup. port from neither, what hope, what chance was there, but to be laughed at ? He believed the Government were afraid of meeting the House of Commons, and letting the public know that the peace of Europe was about to be disturbed through their interference. Bold as they were, they were not bold enough to stato their case to the coun try at that time. Once Parliament was separated, what check was there that they might not have earolled 50,000 men more than there were voted ; the principle was the same, and they actually did enrol 2,545 men more than were voted. The Noble Lord said they would take the responsibility, but he (Mr. H.) said, make out the case first. He wished to see all the correspondence betwt en this Government and France, and he was satisfied it would fail to make out their case. The vote now before them was contrary to the usual prnc:ice of P.rliatirent, are indeed at the tine no one supposed that such a st^p would be taken without calling Parliament together. He felt himself jus tified, fiend . ..Pe, in moving that the vote b. postponed until they had the corresporiderca on the table—if the case w. re made-out then let the vale be agreed to, and if not, let it be rejected. Until that was done be hoped that House would not allow a vote incurred is such a way to pass. They we r. now called on to support an armed navy of 41,000 (nee; that was an enormous establishment A few ye; rs aga the establishment for the navy amounted to 24,000 and 25,000 nne.i, and the utmost number at any time at the period to which he alluded was 26,000 men, and those est iblish- meets sere considered very large; what then must He nourable Members think of such an armament as 41,000 men ? Honourable Members ouglit not. he insisted, to support a vote for so enormous an establishment without some explanation beieg given for its exigence. Parlia ment had now sat fie e weeks, and there was he c intended sufficient time during that period to make such arrange ments as would enable tie Noble Lord ( Lord John Rus sell) to give the required explanation: He would there fore move that the progress of the vote be postponed- until they should have laid on the t dole of the House the cur respondence which would enable Hon. Members to judge how far Government was warranted in the responsibility which they had taken upon themselves. Mr. C. WOOD seid that the question he understood to be before the House was a vote of 29,0001. to make up the deficiency in the accounts up to the 31st of April 1841. The Honourable Member for Kilkenny had, he apple. hended, mistaken the immediate subject under discussion. Sir J. GRAHAM said it was desirable that they should keep the vote of 29,000/. perfectly distinct from that of 161,0001. He wished to know why it was thet when the supplemental estimate was proposed last Session of Par• liament —when the balance of 29,0001. was ascertained— thet balance was not brought under the cognizance of the House—why it was postponed? Mr. MORE O'FERRALL concurre 1 in what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) as t the necessity of keeping the question of the 29,0001. separate from that of the 161,0001. With respect to the observations of the Right Hon. Member for Stamford (Sir George Clerk) he (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) thought that the Right Her. Baronet would have been the last Member in that House to Speak in such a strain. The Right Honourable Member for Stamford had for merly expressed opinions cf quite an opposite ten dency, and stated that when there was a pressure e f the public business, it was next to an impossibility to keep within the strict limits according to which the estimates hal been fixed. The Right Hon. Genticman had asked why was not the proposal regarding this excess made in July last; he must know perfectly well that that was totally imposs . e. ble ; he must be aware that the accounts were made up is the 31st of March, but ni:t closed till Novembel ; the time intervening being reserved for the rece:pt of the ac counts from the Cape cf Good Hope, and the other colo nies. Those accounts from the colonies had not been re ceived till September 1840, and therefore the excess could not possibly be laid before the Parliament in 'July. When the accounts were closed in November, it was then. for the first gore that the excess of 29,0001. was learned. The Ibght Hon. Baronet when in office took far different visors from those to which he now gave utterance ; but then to some Honourable Members the difficulties which were so ob vious when in office completely vanished from their view when They were out of office.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman thee read an extract from a speech of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sic James Graham) and proceeded. The experieece of the Right Hon. Ba ronet made him viel .t.s his principle within twelve months afrer he had laid it down under no less than thirteen heads cf expels: iture.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) asked, then, how it was possible to say, in a year like the lase, any naval accounts should not exceed the amount voted by 29,0001. ?—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the sum of 5,000/, in the present balance-sheer, the Right Hon. Gentleman had omitted to look at the note in the balance-sheet in his hand, or he would have se m that the object of the Government could. net have been con cealmeet With regard to 42,000/. for Canada, it was reentioted in the sheet as the sum appropriated to the ravel expenditure of that country, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman would look to the balance sheet of last year he would find it accounted for, under every head of eependiture ; 15,000/. was on account of service on the lakes. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he was bound to say he thought the answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. O'Ft rral I) was sst isfactory. —( Hear, hear.) He ( Sir J. Graham) certainly did attach g-eat importance to the fait that when the estimates exceeded the amount voted P. rli iment should receive a reason for it. To that prin ciple he had adhered in 1831, and he still adhered to it. He adnii.ted that, with the greatest care, it was impossi ble to frame the estimates exactly, and so as they should not be exceeded, but the principle was, that when this excess oceurrei, Parliament should be informed of it. He bad forgotten the fact, but after what bad been stated, was ready to admit that Noce.nber was by himself considered as the periad at which the accounts should be made up.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. C. WOOD, quite agreed with all that had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham), as to the impossibility of extreme accuracy in framing the esti mates. With regard to• the service on the Lakes in the spill - T . of 1839, when he held the situation now held la) hi; Right Hoe. Friend, of er the estimates were framed, in consequence of the dangcraus state of th) frontiers, the Secretary fur the Colonies had intimated the necessity of increasing our nasal establishment on the Lakes, and Le (Mr. C. Wood) had stated that he must move supple. mental estimates hr the purpose of defraying that expen diture, or came to that vote of credit passed in 1838, for the purpose of defraying the expenditure of the insurrec tion in Canada. lle thought the statement of the Hon Gentleman satisfactoriy accounted for the manner in which the excess of expetiOiture had arisen.—( Hear.) Mr. HUME said that he would not oppose the vote, as the paper in his hands gave a satisfactory account of the expenditure. —( Hear. ) After a few observations from Sir G. CLERK, the vote was agreed to. On the vote being proposed that 61,5001. be granted to defray the excess of the expenditure above the grant for the year ending 31st March, 1841, Sir R. PEE., said that the Not.le Lord opposite had stated, in justification of this excess, that the state of irri t,,ton in which France was at the time, rendered it more expedient fer the Government to undertake the expente upnn their own reyousibility than to come to Parliament for a grant, as the latter traceeding would have tended to alarm that power, and to endanger our pacific relations. The Noble Lord had said, however, that the irritation had sub. ided, and that there was no longer any apprehension of hostilities being provoked between the two countries. Now be (Sir R. Peet) wi ,, hed to know whether the Noble Lord was rightly understood to mean that a friendly un derstanding was established with France, or merely that the expulsion of Mehemet Ali from Syr:a had given so different a character to the Eastern question, that a rup ture on that subject was not to be apprehended ? Lord PALMERSTON said that his Noble Friend re ferred at the time to the irritation displayed in the speech of the person who was et the head of the French Govr.rn. n-.ent in July 1840, when the transaction under discussion took place.--.(Hear, bear ) If the Right Hon. Gentle man asked what was the present state of our relations with France, he would c.3rtainly say that he saw nothing con ! net:zed with the affairs of the East, or likely to ari e out of them—( Hear, hear)—which would dis.urb the pacific understanding between the two countries. Sir H. VERNEY defend.d the vote. Mr. G OULBURN. said that the vcte involved an im portant question as to the conduct of the Government. The Noble Lord opposite, and the &en tary for the Ad miralty, stated that a deficient estimate had been moved for because a t ti! statement of the case would lead to unpleasaht cohstquer;ce3, in the irri . .ated state of the FrAich nation at that time. He did not think ti , at was any justification of their conduct in inuring a small esti mate, when they knew that a large expenditure would be required. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to say that at the time the e stim a t e s wet° moved, the additional ex pi a liture was u L not ß Mr. GO n was a complete answer to hi s ( M r Goulbures) StatemLaTßntNicipadtiedd not think th at t h e Noble Lord's explanaii , . ent. The Noble Lord said th a t t h era had at the time a probabili'y of a necessity f or in creased force, 7 e t the Gcvernm , IA had only p rov id e ] partially furr The Government, as it wai , must have excited the thaatnpdrutabsiluitsypicion of foreign Powers; and, on dui whole, he did not think they were justified in coming to the House with an estimate so far short of that which was required. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that the Gavern ment were at first induced to hope that the f,rces they could command, would be sufficient to enable them to carry out the objects of the Treaty of July. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that no one complained of the proceedings of the Admiralty, when the war with France was threatening. On that "cession whether Parliament weresitting or not thcy.would not be - require/ to sacrifice• the interests of the country to strict constitu tional rules. In times of danger it was always the duty of a Government to provide for the great interests of a State. There was no question about that. But the questim was—and it was an important - one—supposing it highly probable that during the recess an increase of force might be necessary—was it not the duty cif the Go vernment to inform Parliament that such an em ur ge ac y sa ly m arisei and to ask f or a di scret i onary au thoritys k ght, for instan ce , as k f ar a vote o f li ;1 y credit, without requiring any particular estimate. He thought at all events they should have taken some pre • caution against the precedent they had adopted being likely to be followed again. The declaratian of the Noble Lord opposite had gone to show that des potic Governments bad some advantage over the constit u tior.al States. There was no doubt inconvenience in being obliged .t bring the State affairs under the notice of Par liament,- and running the risk of publicity. That was an inconvenience which they should submit to. What he feared was that the precedent established by the Govern ment in 'the present instance might be followed on other occasions. Towards the close of the list Session our re lations with foreign Powers might have he:n dangerously affected by any call made in Parliament for an augmenta tion of the national forces, and it might be the inter, st of the cauntry net to excite the alarm which such a circum stance would create. On the w h o l e , t h ere f ore, i t was our should tak e upon i tse lf t h e repon perhaps advisable that the Governm en t, if presse d b y any t extraordinary i n n e g c necessit y, i forces rath er t h an i t should make a communicaion to Parliament on the subject, thereby giving rise to discussion and diminishing the probability ..f an amicable adjustment of the difficultica which might exist.—(Hear, hear.) He would allow that our rata ticna with Franco had been of a most delicate and important nature, and might justify the course which had been taken. The Government, hawever, in order to avoid the danger that such a proceeding could be cited as a precedent bcreafter, might have stated in the Speech from the Throne that there had been an excess of the na tional expenditure, and that they had on their own discre tion increased the force of the country. They would thus base left a record that the case was a special one, and such as could only be' justifiedam there grounds. Future Geverninents m'ght not otherwlie - understand the peculiar difficulties which pressed on the Ministry in the month cf July last; and he woull venture to say that in all future ca - es the precedent would be referred to in cases where perhaps it would not apply, or it would be easy for Ge verretr.ents to persuade themselves that in a particular case they were facilitating an amicable adjustment of a difficult question by assuming fa themselves a discretionary power, and not claiming for t...eir proceedings the im mediate sanction of Pi , rliament. He thought, there fore, 'it was to be regretted—not .that the Go wrnment had increased their forces—but that they did not make some dist net communication to Parliament, •tating that they bad taken to themselves a discretionary poser, but that they had done so under special cii corn stances, and that the case could not be considered as a precedent for future irnitaion. • Lord PALMERSTON said that in the principles laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet he entirely coacurre 1. He did not deny the constitutional doctrine stated by the Right Hun. Barone'. But the question was, whether the ease was one which properly and justly should make an exception to the gsueral rule. He thought. far the reasons stated by his Noble Friend, that they were justified in adopt ng the course they had taken. What was the state of things when Parliament was prorogued ? The Treaty of July had been signed; and at the t.me great irritation, arising out of complete misapprehension, prevailed in the min& of the French people. That irritation arose from this—the French persuaded themselves !hit the alliance of the Four Powers, which h.id b eu intended simply and . spselficelly for settlisg the question of the Levant, was an alianee hostilely directed aga'net France. The French people said that that was al alliance of the Four Powers against their country, and the national feeling was tint it iridi ;toed a determination to take from her territory, or oiheresise diminish her power. Undoubtedly they might then have come down to Parliament and stated that cir cumstances had arisen which created an angry feeling be twesn France and the Four Powers, and that as Parli i ment was about to separate for some months there was no knowing to what results that irritation might kid in the. interval. They might then, in order to provide for all emergencies, althou g h this was the immediate danger, have asked fora vote of credit which would enable thee) to take such measure at a future period, as the necessities of the times might require. .They might have done that, and he could assure the House that the policy of such a step had been •fully cousidered by the Government, and it was not without full deliberation that they had abstained from taking it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) What might have been the consequence if they had pur sued a different course ? Why, the French nation would have said—the British Government is asking for this vote on the grounds of an anticipated war, and they are about t) enter into an alliance against us with the other Powers. They were, it would be said, askirg for' a vote which Would enable them to increase their nasal forces, so as to be prepared to attack those of France.—( Hear, hear.) They would thus have given great weight to the argu ments of those who-endeavoured to create feelings of hos tility in the minds of the French people, and they would have been acting in tbdip- meaner bet calculated to avoid war, 'which was the qqat object they had In view. They had, aceordirgly, tatten a different course. But was the Erg ish Government the only one that had done so ? The same line of policy was adept . d by the Gsvernments of the Continent. England would have suffered from a war as would every Power engaged in it; but unquee tionahly its pressure would have been more immediately felt by the nations of Germany, because a war by land is attended with greater calamities than conflicts by sea. Austria and Prussia had abstained from everything that c .uld lead to misapprehee sion of the intentions of the Allied Powers. At a later period, however, her Majesty's Government hat thought it necessary to increase our naval Pores, and the Govern ments of the Continent hal felt it equally necessary to take such precautions as would enable them to resist any attack to which they might be subject. He should say, therefore, that altheuga he agreed its the general principles laid down by the Right Hon. Gentle mar, he thought that under the circumstances it was the duty of the Government to incur. t e responsibility they had done rather than run the risk of disturbing the peace, which it was their first object to n:aintain, and which by the course which was then pursued, they bad fortunaiely succeeded in preserving. htihrrita ion of the French they 'these were the grounds could justify their policy. o people mig'it soon pass away, and that there would be eo nds on which had theyhop hoped dthtohuagt the continua:ion of an angry feeling beta eea France and the ether Governments ot Europe. But on the other hand they bad felt that if these expectations should be disap• pointed, and if in the course of the t:cess they should fled it necessary to augment thsir forces, they need not shrink from such a responsibility. Re war had taken place they should have called Parliament tt gather, and submitted the whole subject to their consieeratieu ; but while measures of peecaution only were to be taken, they had hoped that Par. liarnent would give them credit for those larger views which had influenced their policy. In ee.sceadin g to details be found that this course was not a very extraordinary one. In former times, when the financial year began in January, the Government was obliged to incur expenses for whice they had not previously received a vote from Parliament, but in the present instance the Government had come dawn with this estimate, before the end of the financial year, to which it was to be applied, and therefore they could hardly be said to have departed from the letter of the law. S:r R. PEEL said that the Noble Lord se erred t 3 agree with him in every respect. He (Sir R. Peel) bad not said that tho Government ought to have asked tor a vote of credit last year, as such a vote might have bean open to soa.e objection. Such a vote might certainly be attended wi h st nous consequences, inasmuch as it might have led t)increased suspicion and unsasiness in France. He could c mceive, that, under the spec:al circumstances of the sig nature of the Treaty, assuminc, e , it was possible that the Government would be justified in taking upon themselves a discretionary power of increasing the naval or military forces of the country, rather than provoke discussion and irritation by an appeal to Parliament,--but while he ad mitted that they might nave been justified in departing from the usual constitutional mode of proceeding, he thought they should have made some formal communica tion to Perliemeat e etetingetheseirCurnstances under which they had adopted such a course. ( Hear, Lean hear.) They might, for instance, at the commencement of the Ses sion, in the Speech from the Throne (although it keels then too late to benefit by the suggestion), 'have stated that events had occurr: d which had induced them to increase their forces, but that this increase bad been caused by peculiar eircumstancee, and that they expected Patiia merit would sanction their conduct. He had no doubt that such a course would be approved of by Parliament; and the case could not then have been quoted as a prece. dent in future, unless under such very ext.aordinary cir cumstances. Ho (Sir IL Peel) did not wish that the subject should be allowed to pass over unnoticed, lest the precedent should be hereafter appealed to. He wished to prevent that as much as possible by the observations be had been making, and it was on that account he had given expression to them. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the result of the speech of the Right Hon. Ilaronet was, that they ought to have advised her Majestyto state the irreg ularit y of the course they had taken. They should, in the opinion of the Right lion. Bsronet, have come down to Pa-li ,merit at the beginning of the Session. Teis course they might have taken; but he (Lord John 1208,03) sh , :uld observe, t in that cite they should only have rceitired a general opinion on the suteect. He did not say that the course should not base been taken, but he did net see the advan tage that would hive fullowed from it.• He thought it betier that this question should c me befote the Howe in a Committee of Supply. He admitted ilia t..e Rigin Hoc. Geutletnan was entirely right in the general principles which h stated: He did .not deny that; and the 'Right Honourable Gmitletnan on the other hand did not decry that there might he cases where the e. departure from th a t general prieciple might be advisall He thought that the discussion which had taken Piet: on both sides would be quite ssfficient to prevent this case being brought into a precedent. • Mr. HUME said that as the discussion would not be' entered on the journals there would be no record against• this being drawn i n t o a precedent. The Noble Lord ad mitted that the necessity for the increase had been occa sioned by the policy of the Government. Now, he wanted to know what that policy was, and contended that it would be impossible for them to come to a deeisien upon this vol. , until the Syriac; policy should have been discussed. le after a discuss , n of that sort, v‘h'n '4'l the should have hen laid upon the table, the H ouse should see right to saac tion th e policy of the Noble Lord; he w-uld then offer no fresh opposition to the vote. At pre ser,t, however, conceiving that by voting there estimates ho s:iould be sanct;oning the Syrian policy of the Nob!, Lora, he would certainly propose', to negative the vote and divide againA it, if he divided alone. He con sPered th,t if the Treaty of July had neve - 11yel signed the peace of Europe would not ye hen &stxr'oed, and that the Noble Lord, by sigid• g that treaty, had been the cause of everything that h occurred. If the Noble 1....t:rd at the end of the last Session had come down to the House and explained the grounds on which that treaty had been s'gned, end had stated that its sole object was the restoration of Syria to the Porte. and nothing more ; that nothing whatever hoi he to France was intended, such a declaration made is the face of the British Parliament would have re assured France and calmed her, whereas, by going to work secretly, he gave France cause to apprehend that that treaty was the renewal of an alliance hostile to her. The Noble Lord had resorted to the most unconstitutional mans to fan the Lines of reheliion in Syria. He could rot concur in the expense which had been incurred, and he should Acertainly divide the House against the vote. The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER denied that the concurring in the vote st all implied an approba tion c f the Sy rsa policy. The only practical result of ne grriving the vote would be that they would have no money to go on A laugh.) He could not in that case pay tlle expenses without breaking the Appropriation Act, aird the public service Would be put to the greatest possibL inconvenience. He perfectly agreed that it was only under very special circumstances that a Government was au thorized to spend money without consulting Parliament, but he conceived that these circumstances had been made out in the present case. . _ _ Mr. Gd UL BURN sail that they were all agreed that this was a que;tron of no trifling importance. He was much struck with the argument of the Hon. Member fir K.lkenny, that this discussion would not lead to anything being recorde I on the Journals so as to prevent this being drawn into a precedent. He thought he could suggest the means of obviating the difficulty—it was that the present vote should be withdrawn, and that in the vote to be subsequently brought forward, words should be introduced marking the special circumstances of the case which had led to the de tart ore horn the usual prattce. Ti at would form a sufficient record to prevent its being drawn into a precedent. If words were introduced, stating that the excess had been occasioned by speci II circum stances, which could not have been foreseen at the time of the frorcgation of Parliament, every object would be an swered.—( Hear,hear.) _ _ Captain PEC HELL said the grounds of the objection raised t) the vote by the lion. Baronet, the Member for Stt,mford, differed entirely from those asseited by the last speaker. Ht• shouli certaily support the vote, and he bought the line of policy pursued reflected the highest c•edit WI the Go, calmer t. The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER eon curt el with the Right Hon. Gentleman in opinion that it w, old I e :advisable to prevent this being drawn into a pre '..ent. Ho thought it would be almost better to it,tro duce a special Act c f P.4liament for the purpose. : Sir R. PEEL thought as it was a special case, it had better be met by a special Aet. Mr. HUME—Then Vic vote will be withdrawn. Mr. C. WOOD approved of tic course suggested. lie would remind his Hon. Friend the Member for Kil ke•iny ihlt so far from the vot , being wNidrawn it mu.:t be pas:cl to niske it the g roun d o f the Appropriative Act. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL thought an Appropriative. Act would be necessary to enable him tokply the money. Sir GEORGE CLERK apprehended the vote of the House would be sufficiear. Mr. HUME said the special circumstaqces on which tl-.e Syrian policy drpended otg'nt to be discussed first. He thought it would be better to postpone the voto until after tht discussion. Sir R. PEEL thought the v3ting of the money by no impii:d an approval of Go,eriiment policy. Grant ing that policy to be decidedly wrong, still it was tight to pay the a-my and navy. Lord FRANCIS EGERTON would go further, and sly that if the Government policy were wrong, that n4ht he even a greater reason fir their armament. A t eve of pre:umption had been made out to et.l:l‘l,: him ti do what he was always desirous of doing— su-dr.rt Vie N:vy EstirnateF. Lord CL A UDE HAMILTON disapproved entirely of the Syrian policy of the Gov,rnmeut. France was the protectress, by treity, of the Christians of Syria, and tber, fo c nut urilly viewed wi:h feelings of alarm any mea sure calcul ited to inflict the miseries of wen on Syria. He should veto wi7h the Hon. Member for Klkenny. Colonel SIBTHORP rose to address the House, and immediately of erwards Sir Robert Peel nodded to Sir Gorge Clerk, and the two Right Hon. Baronets walke I slowly out of the House, amidst loud laugiter from the Ministerial benches. When the mirth had somewhat subsided, the Gallant Colonel said he really could not .sec what there was to laugh at in his Right Hon. Friend's -gt jog out to procure some ref esliment.—( Renewed laughter.) He believed the day was not far distant when he should see him occupying the plac.! wkch the Noble Lord now occupied, and acting and doing what th, N ,ble Lord was incapable of doing—something for the he , .efit r f the public and country.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Nook Lord had talked of placing France in a false position—what, he would ask, had France dote? Why, she had assumed a position which the Nublu Lord and his colleagues had been afraid to assume. He should be happy to support the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, if he divided the House upon the vote, but he should be gild to ice all these subjects pieced in the hands of a Select Committee. Mr. HUME could not accede to the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ai•huut givirg up the principles with which he had set out.o He . was sorry to vote against tier Majesty's Government, but he could not oonsi,tently i•h the opinions he en'ertained of the policy they had adopted towards Syria support them in that policy. S r4nee , s were then ordered to withdraw, and the Corn miCee divid d, w en t' ere aprare,i— Rir the vote Against it nijurity in favour of the vote —Bl Oa our re-admission into the Gallery we foun Mr. CORRY on his legs, opposing the next vote which hal been put loon the Chair before our admission jet t the gallery. He thought her taajo-ty's Govtrament were gre lily to blame, for the state of the navy in 1839, and that, throughout, they had been most culpably regard less of the proceedings likely to arise front the r Although the charges which had been made against the Admiralty had been denied, they had not ueetected to profi' by them. Dining the last two years five vessels had been launched, aid eleven were now orlered to be built, and though her Majesty's Government had net it,- creased the number of men nominally, they had done so. vetually, by appointing 900 sueernurneraries Recollect ing that three or four thousand of the preeet . force were employed on the coast of China, and considering the ex traordiraey preparations which were made by other natiom, he almost doubted wtelior the force then pro posed to be added was sufficient for the public service. Lord A. LENNOX wished to take that opportunity of calling the attention of the House to what he c rusidered en improper distinction between the privates and non-carn rniedoned officers of the Royal Marine Corps, and those of the troops of the line. If a soldier of the lice was on foreign service for ten ye he received a pension fur twenty-five years ser,ice ; whereas to a marine the same period was only counted as fifteen years. At Plymouth a marine must serve forty )(Fars, tilting during that time the most responsible situe tien tefore he could obtain a pension. He hoped that the Admiralty would soon remove the invidious distinctions which existed between the two services. If no step were taken towards such a result, he would, after Easter, bring forward a motion in oreer to take th_t sense of the House upon the subject. Captain PECHELL said he regretted the course which had been pursued by several Hon. Gentlemen oppo site; as ne underateod it to be admitted on all sides, that the navy had now proved its efficiency beyond all dispute. It had betn stated in the other House of Parliament, that after twenty-four years of peace, the naval officers of this ci untry were not equal in efficiency to those of France, and that even if they were, there was not that affection aid attachment towards the Government which would induce them, if called upon, to engage in action. He was confident that there was no tame who had any such feeling. The late events had dearly shown tnat whenever they were called upon to te.ve their country, their deeds would be such as had ever distinguished the navy of England. He believed that at no time was the navy in a more prosperous condition, or under be t.r discipline. The attention. which had been bestowed on the naval artillery had greatly increased its efficiency. Ho had himself differed from the Admiralty on maily oreadons as to minor details; but the r general management i.e C.xdially approved. The French, on all occaetuns when tbcy had been in the presence of Engdsh step, hal expressed thrir admiration of the skill and abi lity of our officers and seamen—( Hear, bear)—and this set - Ida - lent was not confined te• that nation, but was com mon all over the world. It bad been asserted that the 1311 aenia and Howe were sent out to take part in the naval eng gemeats on the coast of Syria. He main tained that the Britannia and Howe had merely been sent out as raid ships; and he trusted, in conclusion, the Hon. Gentlemen would be ready to second him when he came down to the House with a motion fora reward to the brave men engaged at the siege of Acre.—(Hear, hear.) Caetain BERKELEY beleved the gunnery of the Bri!:isa navy was in as great a state of perfection as it ever had been, but he believed that it was not as regards the fleet let the Medieeraneav, sufficieetly manned to cope with a French floe , . It was bit doctrine, that no .man of w ar ought to leave the port without her full corn. piement of men, and if that were done, be had no doubt they would be found superior to any naval force in the world. Mr. W. C EI A PM AN was Llways ready to g ye las vote in lavaur ut any grants for the effiei,nt equipment of the t avy„ That navy had done its duty most admirably, and he ..as gra.ified to say with,ut having had recourse to impress.. ent fir their equipment. He heli ted th.2re nev, r was an iostarice in which so large a number f line ttle ship. WtAC sent out from th,.t country without g rat recourse to that distressing °sped:eat of taking IT, - LI truth tie trierehaht Set viVe.—( Hear, hear.) It was the fist duty of the House to keep up the British navy, and the vote shr .old therefore have his support. Laid FRANCIS EGERTON hi d vis ted a French 5h..., Mont.•bello, whet she was I) ing in the Bay of Soirria, and he helievcd she did not throw a heavier broad ..id • than the Princess Charlotte. Now ne had ascer. tined that the number of men in the Montebello was 1,130, and be left it to the Lords of the Admiralty to say how many the Princess Ch:irlotte had.--( Hear, hear.) The C:lntnittce would r eco ll ect t h at at Acre only one broadside oft he ships hid been er gaged, but suppose they had been en gagik.d with an equal number of French ships, how would the case have been? Where would the Admiral have bt co ? Most probably where the victory was at Trafalgar, lying alongside the two heaviest ships of the enemy, and hr, foiled it would hav, Shvoto 'sure t n roold do to come off as Briiiin s..i.ors er o Lad come off, triu On a former ocL he had allud e d to t h e setvicei which two naval efh,c's, Slr Howard Douglas and another, had rendered to the country by their improvements in the gqnnery practice of the navy ; he had since ascertained that he had dont injustice to a third and very able officer, Ca ,t, in George Smith, who had been equally serviceable in this respect, and to whose name he was anxious now to do justice. Captain A'COURT hoped the Government would e no tme in placing all the navy upon its full complement of men. The only proof they could have of the efficient manning of the ships was in the event of a naval engage ment. Mr. C. WOOD did not think that House the best place for discussing matters of detail connected with the service, and it had never led to any satisfactory result. They had last year had Hon. Members impeaching the conduct of the Admiralty, and it turned out that they were entirely rcrong ; and now it was said that the present efficient state of the navy was owing to their attacks. Why, the build ing of ships in 1836 could not have been owing to their attacks in 1838 ; nor could the increase in the number of meat in Ib3B have arisen from their attacks in 1839. He would remind the Committee that the principle of placing the ships on a peace complement, during the time of peace, had been the principle uniformly acted upon by every Admiralty, on the ground ;hat the expense was thereby di mieished, and that men had net the same work to do in peace as is time of war. The Noble Lord (G. Lennox) complained that the marine was not placed on the same footing as the seaman with regard to the period of obtaining his dis charge, because two years' service in barracks was only counted equal to one year's service at sea, but he must protest against making these comparisons between the two branches of the service. The marine received a higher pension than the soldi r and was sooner ertaled to it, and as regarded the seaman it would appear from the return be held in his hand that very few seamen obtained their pen sions or discharge before thirty years' service, including, of course, the various periods when they were paid off and not in active service, and therefore the marine was not in a worse position than the seaman in that respect • Lord GEORGE LENNOX had complained that there had been seventy-six naval officers promoted at Acre, and only three marine officers. If there was no distinction between seamen and marines in other respects, in the name of God let there be no distinction between naval and marine officers.--( Hear, hear.) ,He would, however, shortly give Hon. Members an opportunity of recording their opinions, by bringing forward a specific motion or► the subject. Mr. PLUMPTRE understood the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. Wood) to say that he did not consider that cour,- try gentlemen, and those living far in -land, nad a light to express any opinion on the subject of naval affairs, with which they could not be reaaunatly supposed to be very intimately aaguaiptee. Now, he (Mr. Piumptre) thought that use y Oember of that House- ought to enter into that, or any ether' subject, as much as he possibly could. Oa ti e efficiert state of the navy at the present period he would congratulate that House; indeed, the navy was !laver more efficient than is was at the present time. Mr. C. WOOD was not aware how anything which he had said caul I gise rise to what the Hon. Meniter (Air. Piumptre) had attribute 1 to him. He ( Mr. C. Wood) neve, - objected to country gentlemen giving their opinion on naval matters, but what he stated was, that dis cussions such as the present were only likely to give rise to insubordination in the navy, and that gentlemen, not practically experienced in those matters, were not ac qusinted with what number of men, &c., might or might nut he requi,ite. Sir C. ADAM said that it had been the fashion in that House to say that our ships were net in an effective state. The;e were, perhaps, some few instances in which with some degree of fairness that charge might have been made, but one would suppose, that after the experience of the last few months Hon. Members would no longer hear such as sertions made in that House. Let that House and the country only look to what had been done lately in the Me deerranean, and say whtther S r Robert Sropford had not had sufficient means to carry out his platy , . That Gal lant Officer was delighted with the camel-meats of men furs iahed to him. He had evert written home to state his satisfaction at the means which had been placed in his hands to carry on the operattons on the coast of Syria. The fleet was composed of 17 sail of the line with 1,600 men short of their complement, and he, Sir R. Stapfard,) had 1,200 or 1,300 supernurreries to fill up ;heir places. From tie statements made at limes by Honourable Gentlemen in that House, one might he led to suppose that our ships were more ineffi,ient than those of former tia.es. Now, be (Sir C. Adam) had got a return male out of the number of ships under the com mand of Lord Nelson at Trafalgar and the Ni . e, the com plements of men to each ship, and he found that the fleet under the command of Lord Nelson had not a greater complement of men than that at present in the Mediterra acaa. With regard to what had been stated by the Noble Lord behind him (Lord G. Lennox) as to the marines, he (Sir C. Adam) should say that the marines distinguished them: elves as much as any other portion of the men en gaged in the late operations on the coast of Syria. With respect to its being said that our forces in the Mediterranean were not sufficient to cope with ihe French, he should say that our fleet was more than able to cope with the French, who put forward every ship they could supply ; whereas the Bri:ish had 26 line-of battie ships in the Mediterranean, and 15 other line-of baole ships which, when necessary, they could put into active service. The navy of this country was in a state to satisfy any reasonable demands that would be made upon it. Sir T. COCKBURN reprobated the departure from the old system of equipping the navy, which was to have fewer guns and muse mere Captain NIAUNSELL was not in the hal:it of support ing the Gwvornmeat, but felt it his duty to bear testimony to their liberality tow_•rds the marine department, aid to their r..adiness t-) 14t=m to suggestions from that side of the 1-1 , ;11NC. . , After a few words ii explanation, from Capt. Pech , ..ll, Sir G. Cockburn, and Mr. C. Wood, Mr. HUME said, as nu satisfactory explanation had bei n given for the vote, lie should move to reduce it from 43,00/ to 35 000/. Lord PALMERSTON sail it was true the force we had last year was quite sufficient for the accomplishment of all our oFerations in Syria, but if other maritime coun ties increase] their naval force, it was becoming in Eng -1 aid to put hers on a footing of equality with them.—:. ( Hear, bear.) Although there was nothing at present likely to disturb the peace of Europe, he was sure there could be no better course to preserve peace than having our navy in a state of preparation for any contingency. Mr. HUME said he admitted the success of the opera tions in Syria, but it was the arms of the wicked that had triumphed.—( Cheers.) He thought it would be wise not to Lercase, but to diminish our force, at present. Nothing could tend more to bring about a return to relations of amity with France, than our setting the example of re ducing our armaments. He would strongly recommend the Noble Lcrd to be content with the force which he had last year, and which was found sufficient to meet all the emergencies that arose. It would he time enough to in crease our forces when a necessity arose for active hostilities. The queition was then pu►, and the estima'e was carried, Mr. Home and another Hon. Member being the only di.senients. The next estimate of 1,493,7501., f)r wages of :ea men and marines, was r greed to after a few words from Captain P. clieU, The sum of 782,04 i/. for wages of semen and marines in ordinary was next vael The next vote wai for 121,8441., for the salaries of 6tEccri of the Admiralty and dockyards. Colonel SII3THORP objected to proceeding with such important votes in so thin a House, and at so late an hour. Mr. M. O'FERRALL hoped the lion. and Gallant Member would not object to proceed now, when there was only one vote more to he proposed. After a few words front Sir J. GRAHAM and Mr. 111:MR the voge was agreed to. The sum of 2,982/. was then proposed for the salaries and expenses of the office for the Register of Merchant Seamen. Mr. HUME observed that the object for which the re gii:er was established had not been obtained. Sir J. GRAHAM said that the Act bad in its rmlts exceeded his expectations. He had expected only 13,000 apprentices to be regi,t, red in a year, but ti.e fact was that the number had been upwards of 21,000. The vote was then agreed to. The sum of 31,9821. was voted for the salaries of officers, and the contingent expcn:es of several scientific persons in the navy. The sum of 124,5291. was vote] far the salaries of offi cers, and fur the contingent exposes of her Majesty's naval establishment at horns. The sum of 22,152/ was voted f,r the salaries of officeis and the contingent expenses cf . her Majesty's naval este bailment abroad. The vote for wages was postponed. The CHAIRMAN then reported progresr, and ob tained leave to sit again on Friday next. The House having resumed, On the motion of Mr. UUME, for Mr. Wallace, the frllowing Returns were ordered : A Return, in columns, by the Justice of Peace Clerks of the sever al Counties in Scoland, and by their Deputies and Assistants respec tively, of the total amount of Fees levied, and of other emoluments received by them annually, since the Return to this House for the years 1833, 1834, and 1835 respec tively ; specifying, in detail, the amount of Fees le vied under the Small Debt Act, the Barkrupt Act, on Precognitions, and all other fees or emoluments wba•ever ; and also, the amount of the annual ex penses or charges incurred by these Officers for Office.rents, Fees, or Salaries to their Deputies or Assistants ; with the names of these persons, and under what authority and by whom they were appointed. Also, the date of appointment of the Justice of Peace Clerks and their Deputies, the hours of their daily attend. ar,ce at their office, vita the name of any other public office they hold, or employment they are engaged in ; and whether the said Justice of Peace Clerks bola their office for lire, and on what tcrms they and their Deputies hold their appointments. This Return to he dated and signed by the Principal Clerk and his Deputies, if any. Also a Return, in columns (in continuation of that made in 1833), of the salary, tees, and all other emoluments paid to or re etived annually by Procurators Fiscal to the Justices of the Peace in each County of Scotland, since last It ti.rn, and up to the Ist of January, 1841 ; with the num., place of residence, and date of appointment of tt e rail Procurators Fiscal; the Return to show the -urn paid t cli Fi;c,l in each county annually, and also the sum paid by the county or by fees annually, stating the amount received under the name of expenses or costs r.f r • uit, with that chargeable to the county funds respec tively, and the total amount of both. Also, the amount of fines imposed, and of fleas received respectively in each year by each Procurator Fiscal; the Return to state whether the Fiseals keep a book or any record of the sen. tcnces, and a book showing the fines, or, if not, to state how these are recorded; the Returns to be dated and signed b 3 each Procurator Fiscal in each county. On th:, mt,ti,n of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered of tu , expensi-s incurred by GOV( rumen , is preparing for and e 4 nduet log the prozecution of Earl Cardigan in the House (,f Lords; distinguiaing, under separate heads, the MORN LNG EDTTION,,,- amounts paid to the several parties engaged ttereior . 11 , 1 the names of the persons to whom these sums were pro Mr. FOX MAULS gale notice of his inteutionE, more t:-morrow for a Committee to consider of autlT'°!,l;a ing any advance out of the Consolidat , _d Fund of the • be u rc 13 Kingdom of Gr at .itlin and Irelaid, which rr a Y f d after be required for supplyirg arty ecLiency in ti e primarily applicable to the espomes of County CourtF,.°, regulated by any Act to be passed in the rose" Soo° of Par. The other liament Orders of the Day we e than disposed, of. l i t! theiHouse adjourned at a Quarter before Twelve o'Clocs ins TO CONGRATULATORY DINNEF' On g MR. VINCENT UPON HIS RELEA SE CONFINEMENT. Yesterday the Chartists of London entertained Vincent, upon his release from gaol, in the great r°l of the White Conduit-house. The dinner w as sell % about half-past four o'clock, at which time there we r e present upwards of 400 persons, amongst whom ler, several respectably-dressed females. A brass band ors in attendance to amuse the company. The cloth haing been cleared, his ri#' Mr. LOVETT v took the chair, su pported, on - by Messrs. Vincent and Moore, and on the left by Wade and Mr. Cleave. The CHAIRMAN, in rising to propose the first tes;', said they had assembled there that evening for the act P pose of expressing their sympathies for a man w ho 13 . 03 suffered deeply in their cause, and to congratulits But note?: on escaping a prison death.—(Cheers.) so far, they would also take that opportunity of e x p reg lo , their unabated love of justice and truth, and their termination to pursue the straight path of dut.Yl 3 :;. withstanding the suffering and imprisonment which to elusive law-making put it in the power of on e ele d inflict upon another.—(Cheers.) 'Vincent bad suffer..„s two trials—he had been imprisoned twenty mel ltb A s a a yet he was before the assembled Chartists o f L oo to tell them that he stood before them the same 0 ' 81 „- rp the same determined advocate of the People's Ch,Br-fid which would alike protect the interests of ally id secure the happiness of the people upon the ooli 5 °4. basis. He came before them to show that the P, o f ment of the body did not estab:ish the conviction 'PIO the mind.—(Cheers.) He would implore of all e avoid any abatement of the principles of the Charte ot let them pursue their course with determination, 'of let them show to the world that they i,er ere „ o rl opinion that their great cause was best 5e',...;„ beets) by sober, temperate, and prudent conduct—( C and so prove that democra c y was as beneficial in. ,P r o l iji tice as it was just in th e o r y: Most. of t h e social 'of society arose from political cause s. When 00 53 h thet the vast productive power in this country, vc -5 , 11 , 1 saw the five hundred millions of wealth predu r c "„" ° hi nually, they could see no reasonable necessity poverty and degradation of so large a part of the no. lation, caving a most fruitful soil, having more It° I , a t, teget hel o i nical skill than ail the rest of the worn and having the most industrious people on the f s,l. e es earth—they could see no reasonable necessity for foxedflr of them being in rags aud misery, and starving ie„ . , s ) idleness, poverty, ignorance, and mee--0 -lue e -r ils They were agreed that the cause of these cuormetisZio. was exclusive and corrupt legislation ; they were 1 " - a it fore anxious to have a Parliament which would reres'ie, all classes of sociAy, and responsible t 3 the P e l t , ( Any piditical institution that W 43 based upon any th f e e foundation than the will of tile majority was not 3- e re r r institution but a despotic junta, and deserved the c- 0 demnation of all who were excluded. Th e P rese bl: o House of Commons existed in d e fiance of the p a io - will. Upwards of six aelnous of persons were now of this country above the age of 21, while tee Deih her registered lectors was considerably under bac aulouse nay, a majority of the Members of the presant I s were returned by less than 150,000 persons. 11 . 5 ,:„ 8 , - of public opinion had yet been consulted, the DLitinae Chartists greatly exceeded the number of eleetr . ;bB (Cuevas,) Their petition was signed by denh'e "of number of electors in the country. The PrnP erlY itb the labourer—his powers of production either Ivo; head or hands—was never taken into account 13 :o he had no protection ; was that a system whi ch ° to be allowed to continue ?—(Cries of " No, ni;eo Even the middle classes, if they saw their °n o Or et course, ought to join with them, f o r the prerit 5 d, n 9 was annually wasting th e ir cap i t a l, a nd eventua ll Y bt reduce them to the level of the labourer. TueY O- T u e to join the Chartists against the common e nernY• no ld great danger lay in delay, and he trusted they W : 6l soon see their folly and join them, in order to 8 '1 1 ;0 the peace, the happiness, and tile prosperity °` c Orl country. With these prefatory remarks be he ti/ leave to propose the toast, " The people, and tray speedily obtain their political rights." The toast was drunk amidst loud checricg• << Hod TM: CHAIRMAN saki the next, toast was- - ato f Vincent, the eloquent advocate of the reoplo's ri° lot health and prosperity to him.' It was unnecessad him to say a word in favour_of that toast. ii ll3ll 'lle toast was drank eLthusiasticolly with ar e? ' three. :b Pies' Mr. VINCENT sad it Cettsiuly gave him 0 0° ' p„ ea t . sure o to see so many of his friends after an impris°l3best - p t o . s w be healthro uthosn, ( " I "a the h l e lig " h a e ' st h s a p p i l r i i ) . t . s t — o with increased love for their glorious c ause, 1.••• tbheeggietilidtiociitiharneckeptitiieomn they y t ha l:Tr: 1% 0 .10 forhith e ali He j : P ari o si t lock upon the assembly he raw before him ai P a "! ie complimeirt to himself, but as a demonstration ma favour of liberty which h e h a d s t rugg ed. for, au" w o bi bil he stood hefoie hewn to advocate. It had be e • fe or/• fortune or misfortune to take part with h is 11 0 0 r. workmen during a fearful agitation for the seciire plishment of their political liberty, and in his, es ", cucy he had fallen into a snare which b purposely laid for him by the aria :crass who m' s 'a t o• the country, with the view of stopping him Fro m a tie eating those principles which were embodied i° bad People's Chatter, but he pledged himself tb e Y at totally deceived themselves. He had bun t the bar at Monmouth—brought before a Jul , b ut ibe a Jury of his Peers, as in the case of Cardig j k ias other day—he was not tried by a Jury of O r ba d men, but a Jury of men whose prejudices tr, been excited by the paltering and insidious Itbloth merts which had been constantly appearing in -biol Whig and Tory newspapers ; they foam. t die guilty upon garbled evidence, and sent him o wee county gag'. He was not before them to wil d .b ° o ot his sufferings like a puling chill ; he was ne t ,l,,hialf to tell them of the rot-gut skilly and theLsPAkeyt - bread, for thanks to a good constitution be n a " : a ft his word in outliving his persecutions trod !aug h t er his persecutors ; but he would just tell them e e ; 00 0 two anecdotes of the manner in which thenui."'lrr. parson_ of the prison attempted to break b" ', l e be. They were told tnat the gaol was too full, en and Edwards, and Dickenson were put in th e llo dunned cells. This was too good for the parso gibed was afraid they might not know it, and he aske d were they aware that they were in the roe s:l 2l. o l4' which persons were takeu to Le hung.--( ° " - „, - g ke From these cells they were taken in orde' 7 1 - 0 :r room for John Frost and his companions a fter ci s o illegal trial. Weil, after having been in goal forme d "1 to trauruhs, he was tried again for an offence al le e‘' . have been committed in the same co unty- -thel hodyr petted to have sun him broken in spirit, wea k j a tril t y and pis in the face ; but, on the co a they found him courageous, h a l e and heart,' ; io: nee d was however again found gu ilty, and s e t c ted* to further imprisonment, a thin g a l mo st unpre ce t - he In consequence of the a g i t a t e d sta t e o f the coo rY ,' o r was removed to the Penitcetiary, where he wa : fined in an airy stone-room of tour feet 14 t 9go ~ deli' half, and where they attempted to teach him th e tw o cite art of tailoring. He had only been there he. 1° months when he was removed to Oakham , s'f, he r a ad was allowed the litnrty of purcha-ing his owe ° , 1 ,, re' again he lived like a Christ'ari. Now, what Was '-‘-toarl suit of all this ; he went to prism) a detnoerat, be there the same mar, and if he hdd not been London siace his release, it was not because he b e ht he come lukewarm in the cause, but because be th e , a . g- tioo was entitled to at least a few weeks' reralose after an imprisonment of twenty mo nths- „ c oo , ever, he was again before them to vuh-epree the right of the wot king-classes to be r— tbs sented in thl House of Commons. That'wy ip a .O - o a el r ; cause of their meeting, for he would hold so political contempt who could forget that gre at Pr°3 &bait out of compliment to himself. lie contended 'O,O every man should have a share in making la" b ; the • salted upon to obey ; that was the principle °fullest Charter, and he would for ever advocate i t to 0100' extent, and he would denounce any ono a 6 , 6 ,„ P g rest‘ eaemy who would compromise any one of thef,/logill principes it contained. After going at considerabl e int , ) the five great points of the Cbarter;the ° o n ; denied that he had ever been a pike and (lage r the' he had always been prepared to go along adopt' people in any course they thought it proper to but he had always been of opinion, and bad pewee'alwaJ. vocated that no other means should be used do ° t bei " le" :ttes d ful ones. They would never obtain their e nd became a sober and a moral people. Let them r to their domestic duties—let them look to tie Sir sriP, families-4orsake the gin palace, and so show tutrtoci, toeracy that they were a people worthy to beenfthey with the power they claimed. If they did 11 °,_ t--1 pu blic' continued to frequent the beer-shop and I" s thef house, they would be unworthy of the privilege. trit e' sought. After earnestly impressing ou the Gbell s obat rerally to enjoy the blessings of temperance, ° r , a ld would not do of teetotalism, without which temperance` never attain their Charter, he pledged himself to . 1 .; for tinue in the course he had hitherto purstista,;vl although experience had sobered him, it had 1,10 that ardent love of liberty which filled his was immensely cheered throughout. mayM irt. speedily y E tbheeznompreoptobseedia‘w' ohiethPeeolapnle'd.l.,Cbgaaret::loo. urged upon all the friends of the Charter to gio l _,.„r t he pot and the pipe, which formed a dead weight p eople working man in this country. No friend to the le o ught • h ° Charter would spend that upon poison, wh ic h • to devote to the regeneration of his country. The eauici Mr, F , 04, Liop r i sc (ion." Were In havin g counsel th e 0 I fri en ,i allege I have sa near sent t, tamed Lt w3s st ood wi s h es. her & I , Th e n dr ank tntnks, tefor oin rts it t 'lit, i n _Major OP p I, ~. 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