The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-09 00:00:00

some extracts from a Bengal paper on the subject.) The * Hoe , . Beroect was rether angry with him the other evee i i ng for seegering to him the necessity of altering lii s policy towarla ire'and. There wee not a day pen -ling that did act convince him that he was right —even the iatellizosace whiela had arrive I that dey would con. vine° hireelese more thet the Gentleman opposite mug see that they would be committing a feral error iu con , tinuing an insulting policy towards Ireland. Wll3 it a pee'ese like the present, when they might soon have ocraion to call for an extreme augmentation of the :army that they were to make an enemy of Ireland ? Ought they not rather endeavour to make her a firm ally and friend? The Right Hon. Baronet need not sup peso that be could ever have the cordial support of Ire landeunless she was treated with the same fairness as Eagla-id. Look et the Municipal Bill—in this coun try not one man who paid coo Aiding to the poor-rate but was 3 burgess, while in Ireland, a man before he Obtained the same privilege must be rated at 101. It was his duty to warn them that if another packet arrived from America with such menaces as that of that day it would be necessary for them to conciliate Ireland ; indeed be did not think that in such a case there was oce gentleman, however reckless, who would persevere in the present insul:ing and degrading policy. Sir G. GREY did not mean to enter into the gene ral arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member, but from the position ho held he felt bound to say that the courtrmartial upon Captain Reynolds had aetel strictly according to their duty. He would go further and . rny that they had awarded strict justice. They were appoiated for a special purpose, and they had no right to inquire into provocations which had been given mouths or years before. Sir De LACY EVANS had the pleasure of know rag many of the officers who sat on the court-martial, . and knew them to be men of personal honour and eauel}"judgment, but as the Court was for the tlial of e captain he thought there ought to have been more o.'ficers of his own rank.—(Hear, hear.) On the con erary micro than one-half were cosnrnanding officers. (Sir Die Lacy Evans) did not dispute the finding ef the Court # but ho thought it was highly inconve relent for any court-martial to assert the abstract prin ciple which had been asserted in this case. The 4 mut-martial had said that no provocation whateve could excuse disobedience of ciders or insubordination. Although ho would be the last to countenance insub ardination, he thought it would have been better not to have laid down the principle, that provocation could ie no instance form a palliation or defence. He was rather surprised the other evening to bear the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies say that the great clamour upon this subject was to be attributed to the fact that the Commander of the llth Regiment was a n >blemae. He (Sir Do Lacy Evans) had always con sidered that rank was a great advantage to a commander. He believed it was much easier for a nobleman to ren der himself agreeable to those who were under his orders, than for any person of lower rank to do so. There were many instances in support of his view, amongst which we re th ose o f L or d A nglesey and the Duke of York. That the Noble Lord should rest his argumeat an EWA a point only showed the meagreness of the grounds on which he stood. The Right Hon. Gent le man the Seorsteryeat-War had stated that it would be unusual to place an officer on half-pay, because he had fallen nadir displeasure. He (Sir De Lacy Evans) believed It would be found upon inquiry, that there were matey insteuteas in which such a course had been pursued. There were officers in the army at that very time who, through having got into some little difficul ties, lead boon placed upon half-pay. With respect to the propriety of affording religious assistance to soldiers of the Catholic pecsuasion in the East Indies, which had been alluded to in the debate, it should be remembered that the priacipal disorders which occurred in the army arose from intoxication ; and if in those portions of our possessions where there were no Catholic clergymen, some assistance could be given to the soldiery, he thought it might tend to check that evil. .'Mr. WARBURTON could not but think that theneewere facts enough beforejhe House and the pub lics to oill for an inquiry. —(1 - rear, hear.) In a letter scot by Lord Hill to the officers of the regiment, al dressed to Lord Cardigan, the commanding officer, it eteteel that the regiment was in such a condition that it was neither useful for domestic purposes nor to be trusted is the field.—(Hear, hear.) Was a regiment to be in that state and no inquiry take place as to the cause which led to it? In the debates the other night, the Gallant Officer, the Master-General of the Ord nance had stated that there was that, though not in the matter, yet is the manner, of the commanding officer, which led to these r esu lt s . O n t h e other hand, it had been stated with respect to the officers, that there was a cabal amongst them. Was it not right, under these circumstances, that an inquiry should take place ? •c . liear, hear.) He considered these matters as a reflec tion, not upon Lord Cardigan, or upon the officers of tee regiment, but upon the Commander-in-Chief of the 2erney s who had not instituted a full inquiry into the etthject ; fer nothing but a fair and candid inquiry could luran end to this state of things. Lard JOHN RUSSELL said that with respect to eelsett had fallen from the Hon. Member for Westinin :.ter Ise quite agreed with him, that high rank was rather ?event of the commanding officer than against him ; ieut what be maintained was that complaints of this na• :;are were mere likely to excite public attention, when h o (Accr was of high rank than when he had been raised :e the service, or did not occupy a commanding position. In his opinion, in consequeace of the situation of Lord Cardigan, there had been a great deal more ma le of the matter in debate than there otherwise would have been ; he did not want to enter list) details, but if he were asked what those details we-e, be should say they ,veto exttomely frivolous in theinitelves..--( Hear.) Tae Hon. Member for B:idport had said that there ought to have been a solemn Court of Inquiry. Now, the opinion of the Commander-in-Chief was the contrary of that ; he thought it much better to send down the Al jet ant-General to the regiment, for the purpose of de claring his opinion of the course twat had been pur sued ; and he (Lard J. Russell) thought that the ad monition that was given by the Commande:-in-Chief; was far more tikely in future to induce the officers to perform their duties effectively, and to live in harmony with each other, than if an inquiry had taken mace, And the polka mind had been excited on the subject. With regard to what had been stated by the Hon. and Letrnod Metzhee far Dublin, he did not wish them to cater into the effeirs of Canada ; that Honcareble a : 4 ° teemed ZelaaeLer had truly stated that those affairs ware matter of history, and to history he would leave theta.—(Hear, hear.) As to the ordinance that bad basses passed relitive to the Seminary of St. Sulelea, that ordinance had been approved of by an e.unzet (Afloat who la I served in C:nade, and by sue- CCS3:VA Sseretarias of State ; it was but a m ttcr of jus tice era an aesiaeet body of men, and any interference wi,th it would be considered as an interference with tho ordinance, act because it was just and equi!ahle, but because a benefit was derived from it by the Rmnan Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) He should think such an interferesce, considering the state of Canals, must un wise and imprudent. He thought they ought to behave toward s the 11: - .man Catholics of tha. country w;th the gmetaat rega,d--shay ought to bate that which was their due as loyal subjects of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) As to the Roman Catholic soldiers in ledia I.c did not know what would be done by the E ist India Company or the Goyerntment of India, but he thought that eve-) silty should be given to enable Roan C Ith - diers to have th e ass i stance of a taini,t, t . n r of theirtheir religion, and every means should he taken to gite them the assistance. Sir GEORGE GREY said that tL e Hon. Member (us Bridport had not put a righ' comatrucfen upon t h e reoceedinge of the court ma.fal. Sir A: DALRYMPLE felt bound to bear testi. :pony to the excellent state of disciplin e in which the' 11 ids regiment was, after what had been stated by the item Member for Bridport. A better behaved or dis 3ipliaed regiment never existed. , "Sir HARD: NGE said that t.c corps was in an calms la stet) of discipli ie. M. HUME wisi.e 1 to put a question ti the Judge Airesneeefsaexal. He wished to know whether cvi wea at tendered at the court-martial of along :furs of haul.* th a t h a d been received by the gallant ricer, and whether it was not usual on such occasions note down the evidence tendered, in order that, when 1 1 4$ beonght before the higher tribunal, there might be quo:Lions raved as to wflether that evidence did not ee groani far further inquiry. That ma-le a strong isression on his mind, for they shut out all the pre , ton s acts of oppression and provocation. He was not disposed to deny the doctrine that no previous provoca s;en could warrant an immediate breach of discipline ; but he would put it to the Right Hon. Gentleman how ler it was possible to suppose that officers were not 11$5:), and could bear insult without any means of redress hoingafforded them. On a former evening he had sainhat tie l ee ! blamed Lard Hill even more than Lord Cardi gan, and ha had &no 'Aimed the Right Hon. Gentle man the Secretary at W ar , whose duty it was not only' to Me justice done to Lord Cardigan, but to every officer in the regiment. The whole affdr had been a gross act of injustice towards the officers, and of fa vouritism towards Lord Cardigan. In his opinion, Lord Hill should be removed from the command of the army—(Hoar, bear, and a laugh) — an d ho thought he should never have been allowed to have continued in that command after Lord Grey had assumed the Go vernment. Mr. MACAULAY denied that he had used the wards atteibutnd to him by the Hon. Member. H e maintai ne d w h ere a c l amour w hi c h he thou g ht unjust end ill-tempered was raised against a man, it was only un ,ftdditioo-al.roason why a man of spirit and conscience should Perlbrm his duty freely and impartially. No man respeeted the opinion of his countrymen more than he (Mr. 14 RaIlaY) 4d ; he believed they were always ready to hear both sides, and to give fair play to all parties, and he believed that th e course ta k en on th e persent occasion by her Majesty's Government was the one most consistent with justice, and best calculated to promote the discipline of the army. Now the admoni tion to which the Hon. Mnrnber for Bridport referred was a general one, and merely stated that a tendency to disagreement and dlssens:on must render a corps in efficient ; and although is WAS not his immediate pro vince to look after the discipline of the army, he be lieved that to wh,ite-e: cl.arges Lord Cardigan might ho lial.l-, ho had brought his re,gimeat t) a very high de4re.:3 of efficiency in a very short time after its return from India.—(Hear, hear.) He could not sit down without adverting to anatlyr point, referred t by the Hon. and Learned Membe: for Dublin, with regard to Catholic soldiers serving in India. Whatever they might held with regard to their re'igiouse tiblishments at home, he thought there could be no doubt that if they beat up for recruits in the Catholic counties of Ireland—if they took poor and ignorant men, and put them on ship board, and sent them 15,000 miles from their homes, into the midst of Pagans and Mahome dans, where they were exposed to fever and wounds, and were called nn to fight the batees of their country, they were bound to provide for them the comforts of their religion.—(Loud cries of 6' Hear, hear.") He was quite satisfied that the happiness and morality of the men would be improved by such an arrangement. He had not seen the statements referred to by the Hon. and Learned Member ; but he would make it his business to inquire into the matter. Sir ROBERT PEEL could not help remarking that the Hon Member for Kilkenny had a strong prepossession against Lord Hill, because be had not resigned when Lord Grey entered the Administration, and it appeared to him that the prejudice which he en tertained aiainst Lord Hill bad communicated itself to the case of Lord Cardigan, and swayed his mind to a certain extent. Now, in the case of Lord Cardigan, it would have been manifestly unjust to have dismissed him without a court-martial ; it would have been un wise to replace him on half-pay under the circumstan ces, and it was admitted on all hands that there was not the remotest ground for justifying the appointment of a court-martial in his case—(Hear, hear) in short none of these grounds could have been taken. It was his opinion that the Commander-in Chief was a better authority on that point than the House of Com mons. He could not be!eve that any Court of Inquiry, extending as it probably would over many years, haves tigating offences that might be given by look or man ner, would end in any satisfactory way. He thought a wise discretion was exercised in permitting that case to be decided by a man holding the high station which the Commander-in-Chief of the British Army did, whose public military services entitled him to the highest re spect, and whose private character was exempt from suspicion. There was nothing which he (Sir R. Peel) would deprecate more than that the intentions of the Commander-in-Chief should be influenced by any ex pression of opinion, on a matter of mere uatary disci pline. He was also bound to say that he could not conceive what motive the Secretary-at-War could have in protecting Lord Cardigan. It was quite clear he was not actuated by any political partiality. It was evident also that some temporary popularity might have been acquired by that Right Hon. Gentleman's adopt .. in a contrary course. Whilst he (Sir R. Peel) thought that the rank of Lord Cardigan ought not to be any source of protection to him ; yet he must say that it was inconsistent with justice that a noblemen being the commander of a regiment, and a man of high rank, should be exposed to a punishment from which a man of inferior rank would be exempt. He did trust that the same motives which influenced her Majesty's Government to act with a sense of justice in the first instance would induce them steadily to adhere to the same course. Colonel SAL WEY thought there was great incon sis:eacy in the statements made relative to the present condition of the regiment commanded by Lord Cardi gan. The Right Hon. the Snretary at War had spoken of that corps aq being in a high state of ineffi ciency, whilst on the other side of the House an Hon. and Gallant General (Sir H. Hardinge) had stated that a cabal existed among the officers of that regiment. That was in his (Col. Salwoy's) opinion the most un fortunate expression that could have fallen from any Gal. lint Officer in that House. He never heard it stated that any cabal exited in that regiment. Though he had not the honour of being acquainted with Captain Reynolds—better known as " black-bottle" Captain Reynolds —yet he believed that gentleman would be the last to form any cabal against his commanding officer. He (Colonel Salway) was sorry to hear such an ex pression from the Hon. and Gallant General opposite. Sir H. HARDINGE said that what he had dis tinctly stated was, that the differences in that regiment partook of the nature of a cabal among a few of its I, officers. He was justified in using that expression, because it had been used at the Horse Guards with re- spect to the subject now before the House. He was far from attributing anything like a cabal to the whole of the regiment, for with the exception of three or four of its officers, none bad any misunderstanding with Lord Cardigan. With respect to that nobleman, he (Sir H. H.) did not mean to justify his every action, but he must say that he (Lord Cardigan) had not merited the severe censure which had been passed on him by the press. He was happy also to say that the officers of that regi ment under Lord Cardigan's command conducted themselves in general with propriety, and with a due regard to discipline. An HoN. MEMBER said it was unwise of any mili tary man to say one word in that House as to the rno- fires that actuatei the Commander.in-Chief in his treatment of Lord Cardigan. Lord Hill had sent down the inspector of cavalry to inquire into the merits of the case, and his Lordship acted on the report of the inspcc:or. ARMY ESTIMATES. The House then went into Committer of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in t'le chair. Mr. 'MACAULAY, in proposing the vote for the yeomanry cavalry, said that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny had on the last evening requested him (Mr. Macaulay) to postpone the vote. The whole vote amounted to only 82,2661. for defraying the expenses of the yeomanry cavalry, and when the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) recolleated that the conduct of the ca valry was perfectly irreproachable he (Mr. Macaulay) hoped he would not press his opposition. Mr. HUME had risea actEr tn•elte o'clock the 'other night to prevent the vote being pet, which he consi derel the most objectionable one in the Estimates. He did not think such irregular corps ought to exist. They never came in contact with their fel!ow. citizens without en windering unpleasant fcelings, which were not occasioned by the regular troops. He never reeelleated any corn pl dots being made against the regulars, who always on such occasions performed their unphasant dut;es with the utmost impartiality. There had been no instance of complaint in Ireland against the regular troop!, whilst the employment of volunteer corps in that country had given rise to the most bitter feelings. Toree regiments cf regular troops could be maintained for the sum now proposed for these volunteer corps, and he was convinced that, with the present easy means of communication, three regular regiments would bo found much more efficient than the whole of the yea maary corps. He should certainly d:vido against the grant. Mr. O'CONNELL, in reference to what had fallen from the Hon. Secretary at War, before going into Committee, in relation to Catholic soldiers in India, wiiiied to remind him that precisely the same promise had bee., made by I:i3 prrdecessor. He hoped he would pre-33 the matter at the In lia Hou.e. The ii.formation sought for could he elsily acquired, and he would take care he should be furnished with it. Mr. P. HOWARD hoped the Right Hon. Gentl • man would also direct his attention to the furnishing re ligious instruct oo to the Catholic soldiers from Lan cashire and the aghl.inds who were serving in India. St•angers were ordered to withdraw, and th Com mittee divided, when t!.e:v appeared— Ayes Noes • 14 Majority in favour of the ;rant indsisrtilulys O isi ß eua l ry ) d N , va A nid ti vi C irel E l.Nu E e, n S v,t T lho l t A urt l hi kT , E ri S. t 4 .o d u e out i was very gallery, th en rose to bring q forA y ardt t i l i e e O a r w d l ic ro e m u ti st l i e . mates. It would have afforded him the greatest plea sure ir, like the Hon. Secretary at War, who had an nounced a decrease in ptopo s i ng the Army Estimat es , he could have it i n hi s power to 'hat e announ ce d a de crease in the Ordnance Ettintates. He regrett .d, how ever, to say that he fe't himself called on to propose a large increase—an increase to the amount of 186,9u3/, and ha would endeavour as briefly as po ss ibl e to ex: plain under each vote the necessity that exist e d f or the increase. The first 'tote was for the Ordnance civil establishments at the Tower, Woolwich, and the out stations. Under this hen 1 there was a n i ncrease of 0,7571, ; this was owing in a great measure to the in created salaries of their servants, who, a; they grew older, received an increase of salary, and also to the appoint ment of two additional storekeepers at Montreal and Sierra Leone. On the second vote for the Royal Engi neers, Sappers, and M'ners, teem was an increase 0t2.688/. The increase was owing to an application from the Go vernorw o rks of B on a that rmud a s , t for ati sappersotLhad and found miners, thatte conduct the works could be carried on infinitely cheaper by the em ployment of sappers and miners, than by hiring G lahourers, and the re f ore , a t the suggestion of the c vernment, he had applied for this assistance.. Oa the third vote there was a decrease of 1,2121., ari sing from the fact that a large quantity of clothing had been sup plied last year, and that therefore there tea; less re quired this year. No alteration had taken phee in the establishment of Royal Art llery. The number of men which had been aided last year amounted to 576, and enaided him to relieve the foreign and colonial stations when the time came. He had, however, been obliged to reduce the number of the men on some of the foreign sta tions, and it it should be deemed advisable to keep up the present number of men on the foreign and colonial sta tions, he should be obliged next year to ask for an in crease. On the fourth vote there was an increase of 96/., owing to the appointment of a barrack-master at Tor quay. On the fifth vote, for Ordnance works and re pairs in the United Kingdom and the colonies, store keepers, barracks, clerks of works, &c., a great increase had taken place, owing totet Ordnancebeinge,irobligedoCk works, The erect The w now barracks and rain , u EVENING EDITION'. THE SUN, LONDON', TUESDAY, MARCH 9,18 c. first was at Waltham Abbey, to afford an increased means for the making of gunpowdcr. An expe.ise hid been incur red of 11,0001. for m ichiacry. At Birming ham, from whence the army was supplied w:th new muskets, they were obliged to have a place in which the arms could be collected, which has cost 5,030/. —( Hear, hear.) In consequence of a dreadful storm, which had occasioned coaideratile damage to the sea line at Portsmouth, 6,9001. was required for its re pair. At Halifax an additional expenditure of 4,8001. had become necessary. On the Cape frontier an ex penditure of 2,8701., and at Gibraltar the l trge sum of 22,0001. would be required. The works at Gibraltar on the sea lice had long hem complained of as out of re pair. It had been frequently patched up, but the ap plicati en of steam navigation had created so great an alteration as to render it the duty of the Government to provide especially for the safety of places situated like Gibraltar. It was necessary to have a good sca line. Sir John Jones, who had erected the works in the Netherlands, at the close of the I ist war, bad gone out to Gibraltar for the pur pose of makin g pl ans an d est i mates of the works required. He had not yet returned any estimate, but he had sent home a rough draft, which he thought justified the Government in asking 20,000/. for carrying on the works during the present year. Tne next item of increase was an item of 8,8571 for barracks in the central districts. In the northern district, for 18 years troops had been lodged in temporary barracks. Two years ago he thought it his duty to go down and examine the barracks ; he found that the troops were very badly accommodated. In the first instance the barracks had been very comfortable, but at Bolton, Bury, and other places, they were now far otherwise. He thought it was but justice to the troops to erect barracks in which they would be comfortable. Again, an increase of 10,000/. had become necessary for the erection of bar racks at Brecon. They all knew the circumstances which had occurred in South Wales last year. The troops there had at first been stationed at public houses, which he considered highly objectionable. They were afterwards placed in buildings, fitted up for that purpose ; and if it should be considered necessary to keep troops in South Wales, they should erect barracks for their accommodation at Brecon. There was an increase of 10,000/. for the erection of fortified barracks at a station the name of which we could not catch, and where at present tha troops were residing in old hulks. On the Gth vote there was an incresse of 5,414/. On the 7th vote, items for military service, there was a great increase. This was a moss important vote, and the increase arose in a great de gree from the giving percussion arms to the troops. It was a subject which had engaged the attention of the Board of Ordnance for many years. I t was well known that under the old system of locks a great num ber of muskets missed fire. It was well known that the British soldier always did good work with his musket, but he thought it was but due, to him to put as good arms into his hand as could be procured. The increase under this head was 130,000/. When he first became Master-General of the Ordnance his attention had been directed to the best means of effecting the change from the flint to the percussion. He had watched the operation of the flint, and he had seen regularly that one third of the arms missed fire. He felt the necessity of re sorting to some change, more especially when the other European powers were doing the same. He had had pat tern locks made, and submitted them to the inspection of a Committee appointed by Lord Hill, of which the Store-keeper of the Ordnance was a member. He had had patterns of locks for muskets, carbines, and rifled, and had had arms thus fitted up sent out to the regi ments in Canada, India, and Ireland, and he requested Lord Hill to direct the commanders of those regiments to report thereon. Some sixty or seventy regiments had been supplied, and he would read extracts from some of the Reports. Colonel Cathcart, of the King's Dragoons, said that they were better calculated for service than any arms he had ever seen. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer then proceeded to read several other returns, all of which highly approved of the adoption of the percussion arms. With these returns before him he was sure the House would agree with him that the Government had nothing to do but to go on manufacturing these arms, because, if anything should occur which would render it necessary to send out an army to any part of the world, the superiority of the percussion locks would become apparent. He recollected an instance of a re view at Dublin, where the men had the common locks to their guns, and in consequence of a shower of rain coming on, not one of their guns would go off. There was an addition of 15,000/. for stores, and there was also an addition of 10,000/. for the purchase of military stores. In the Commissariat Department there was 36,0001. less this year than last ; the reason of that was, that the Ordnance Department had been taken by the Treasury. Altogether there would be more ex panded this year than last, by 156,915/. He trusted the statement he hal made would he satisfactory to the House, and he would now put it in the hands of the Chairman, for the adoption of the Committee. Upon the vote for 119,631/., for defraying the sala ries of the Civil Establishment for the office of Ordi nance at Woolwich, and on foreign stations being put, Mr. HUME observed that as the House seemed determined to keep up a large naval and military force, it was absolutely necessary to have it efficient, and it anything was more important than another it was that the men forming that force should have the best pos sible arms. It was no economy to have bad ones. In the vete now before the House there was no increase from the last year, and he therefore had no objection to it ; he objected, however, to the enormous amount of stores kept constantly on hand. The vote was then agreed to. A. vote of 315,861/. for defraying the expenses of the Royal Artillery and Horse Artillery was agreed to. A vote of 37,810/. was also agreed to to defray the salaries of Barrack-Masters in the United Kiagdom and on foreign stations. The next vote was 525,021/. for defraying the charge of Ordnance works and repairs. In answer to a question from Sir A. DALRYMPLE, Sir H. VIVIAN said that the Government did not propose to erect any other barracks in South gabs unless it was found to be absolutely necessary. Mr. HODGES wished to ask the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer whether he considered the barracks at Hythe were necessary to be kept up ? Sir H. VIVIAN observed that he was preparod to go and throw away tho-e barracks, selling them fur little or nothing, when, perhaps, in a short time, he should be forced to purchase them at a great expanse. Mr. HUME considered this a very heavy vote, and be was sorry to see the Gallant Officer was adopting a course that had been adopted a few years ago, when a disturbance took place in Lancashire, namely, that of erecting barracks wl:em cmeutes took place. He thought the Government would do well to consider whether, ingte ►d of studding the country over ;itit barracks, they could not adopt some other means of ........ ... putting an end to the di scon t ents t h at existed in .. ti c countr. If they would allow the people to manaec their own affairs, they would not be called upon to liy out large sums in the erection of barracks. S:r H VIVIAN denied that the Government had erected I wracks where the cmcutes had taken place. Mr. lIU ill E hoped that the sums received for show ing the different parts of the 'rower would be applied to coding to the collection there, and also to defray the expense of the new bull ling. He also desired that these collections should be made admis'ible, partly et least, to those who coul3 not pay. Sixpence was a small sum compared with the payments which were formerly taken, but there were numbers of persons who could not afford even sixpence, aid who were therefore entirely excluded from these collections. He thought that ono day in the week might be sot apart for the benefit of such persons. He mentioned the following to show the aivant tge which even the revenue derived from the reducing of the rate of admission. During twelve months, when the demand was 24., 10,300 per sons visitel the armoury, producing a revenue of 1,0301. When it was reduced to'one shiding, there were 41,000, producing. a revenue of 2,0401. WI en the fee was Gd., 80,000 were admitted, producing a revenue of 0 ,0001. In the year ending Feb. 1, 1841, 91,897 were admitted on the same terms, producing a revenue of 2,2971. After a few words from Colonel Thomas, Mr. P. Howard, Sir Hussey Vivian, and Colonel Anson, with respect to the erection of barracks, the vote was agreed to. ORDNANCE SURVEY. On the motion that a sum, not exceeding 186,259/., be applied for the expense of the Ordnance survey, Sir A. DALRYIIPLE said that, in voting money for the proposed survey, the House should see that the object to be carried out was within the powers of the officers who were to be employ ea. He thought that it should not be thrown entirely upon the military depart. merit. The Honourable Member was also understood to elude to the great expense which would attend tliis survey. Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said he thought his Hon. ,Friendm atshlabourings e u d n dz. not a largeri tike ot than a th i s n t hat of u previous year ; an d the proposed survey on the scale of s Lty. six inches to the mile would be carried on in the same manner as the old survey of one inch. He could assure the Gallant. Gentleman that the geological survey was not carried on by the Ordnance officers —it was entirely under the management of M. Delabeche—though he was sometimes assi,tad by the Ordnance engineers. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was the sum of 328,000/. expense of Ordnance stores, Mr. HIJME wished to ask the Gallant General sent out to Syria. if he could tell him what am ount of store s h a d b een Sir H. VIVIAN c ould not say off h an d what the amount was ; he could tell his Hon. Friend, h owever, muskets sent. 0 that there were 15,00 The vote was agreed to, as were 5,5791 for the purchasing of land at Kingston, C inada. 116,5291. for defraying the expensa of surerinua- Cons, half-pay, and pensions of the Ordnance depart ment, And 248..5951. for the Commissariat supplies to the S2:lli, department. The House then resumed—the Report to be received on Wednesday. Tue Report of the Turnpike Act Continuance Bill was braught up, and the Bail ordered to en grossed. The Turnpike Act Continuanec. (Ireland) Bill went through Committee:,_ POOR-LAWS. M r . F. MAULE moved that the House reso've itself into Committee on the Poor-law Amendment all. Mr. 'l'. PARKER did not know what sympathy for the poor would be shown i n t h at H ouse, b ut h e wou ld certainly continue his opposition to it when it. was pro posed to proce.id with it. As the present was merely a profurnuz proceeding, he would not then detain the Mr. F. MAULE would only assure the Hon. Gen tleman that her Majesty's Ministers felt quite as much, and probably more, sympathy for t'ee poor than many who made much noise upon the subject. Captain PECHELL wished to know whether he had correctly understood the Noble Lord—were all local acts to be left untouched, and were Gilbert Cor porafons to be exempted from the operation of the Bill ? Mr. F. MAULE said his motion was merely a pro forma one. When the Bill was printed with the amendments, Hon. Gentlemen would see them. Colonel SIBTHORP said he did not think his Hon. Friend (Mr. T. Parker) had been answered in the most courteous manner by the Hon. Under-Secre tary ; and, as for his boast, there was a very true, af t hough a very trite saying —it was, " The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it."--(A laugh.) Now, he thought the acts of the Ministry had never given any proof of sympathy for the poor. They bad shown an ar e t l l y en ices, and, although they had years' continu a n c e now, rather comeot love v d e o f: o r t o their five than give up their dearly-loved places, they would come to two, or even one•—they would descend to any trick in order to insere them. If no other Member took the sense of the House upon the Bill on a future occasion, he would do so himself. Mr. HINDLEY earnestly pressed upon the Go vernment to adopt the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, and divide the Bill into two. The House then went into Committee—Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Captain PECHELL again inquired whether the Gilbert Incorporations were exempted from the opera tion of the Bill. Mr. F. MAULE—No. Mr. T. DUNCOM BE would warn the House against the insidious provisions of the Bill. Local Acts were not to be touched, but the Commissioners had no thing to do but join a parish having a local Act to another which had not one, and then their board of guardians immediately ruled the union. In that way they had joined Kensington and Chelsea—the utmost confusion had been the result, and they had been compelled, in order to remedy the evil, to bring in a bill of divorce be tween the parishes—(A laugh)—for no other power than Parliament could effect a separation, a union beel ine once been formed by the Poor-law Commissioners. He did not see the Noble Lord the Secretary of State in his place who could give the required explanation, and therefore he moved that the Chairman report pro gress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. FOX MAULE said the Hon. .Gentleman had refused to concede what he bad never known to be re fused in that House, namely, to go into Committee pro forma, for the purpose of amending the Bill. He had never heard such a step refused to any Hon. Member much less to the Leader of the House. His Noble Friend had in the early part of the evening detailed the amendments he proposed to make, but whether the Honourable Member heard him or not he really did not know—he was taking no step in the Bill, but was merely asking to place before the House in more clear and intelligible terms the alterations he proposed to make. Mr. DUNCOMBE said he had been charged with taking an unusual and uncourteous step in objecting to the alterations about to be made, but he must say it was much more unusual and uncourteous, when he asked the Hon. Gentleman with reference to certain amend ments which it was proposed to make, to be toll " you will see that when the Bill is printed."—(Tory cheers.) If I , e had been treated in that manner by any Secretary of State even of the high departments, much less of the lower—(A laugh)—he would say that in any other place it was a somewhat impertinent answer.—(Hear, hear, and cries of " Order.") The Noble Lord had been much more courteous to the House than his sub altern, because he had condescended to explain when asked ; but he considered the answer he bad received from the Hon. Under-Secretary both uncourteous and unusual. Mr. FOX MAULE said his answer had certainly been given in an unusual and irregular manner from his seat, as one friend wouNI give to another on the same side of the House.—(l ear, hear.) He trusted, how. ever, the House would not consent to the unprecedented motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Lord JOHN RUSF,ELL said it was a very frequent 1 course to propose amendment?, in order that the 13111 might g o into Committee in tho state in which the Go vernment wished it to appear. That proposition had been generally agree4l to. Now, because he (Lord John Russell) had done more than was usual—bccauso he had stated the nature of the amendments he intended to propose, the H.on. Member asked for more, and wished to have every item and iota stated. Mr. DUNCOM:BE hoped the N.)ble Lord would not misrepresent hi m, he had merely asked one question. Mr. BERNAL said an observation had escaped the Hon. Member, which he was sure was not meant in the sense in which fit was taken, and which he thought the Hon. Member aught to explain. _ _ Mr. DUNCONEBE said that he had qualified his observation, by adding if it had been made in another place. Colonel WOO]) thought there had been a good deal of warmth about nothing at a ll. H e un d erstoo d __ . the word " impertinent" had escaped the floZCi;;;;, and that requ'red some explanation. Mr. DUNCO MBE said after the explanation of the Hon. Secretary he, of course, withdrew the obJer vation. After a few words from Mr. JOHN JONES, the Bi!1 went through a. Committee pro form, and was or dered to be printed with the amendment,. COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS. Mr. EMMERSON TENNENT, in moving the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Copyright of Desi l .r is Bill, proposed that it be an in struction to the Gommittee to consider all the Acts connected with the copyright of articles of manufac ture, fur the purpose of combining them in one Bill. Mr. SHIM. said he had sugge'ited that when an A. t of Parliament r as about to be brought in effecting alterations in one branch of copyright, that it wou!d be much wiser, there b.cing no less than five Acts on that subject, to include teem all in one general Act. There we!e copyrights upon designs on metal, on glass, and other articles, and he thought it would be much more judicious to have the whole subject considered by the Committee. Tt,e House then went: into Committee, proforma. Mr. I-lINDLEY wiAlled to know whether the Bill would come into operation after the dat , : of registration or that of publ•cation. Mr. E.tENNENT—After the date of registration. After a short emrversation between Mr. Hindley, Mr. Hume, and Mr. shed, the Bill was ordered to be committed on We , .nesday, the 17.11 instant, and Cie House resumed. LEASE AND RELEASE BILL. Mr. EWA RT }sought up the Report on the Lease and Release B P, which was ordered to be read a third CRIMINAL LAW. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he rose to bring in a Bill for the Atrene,;metit of the Criminal Law, The Hon. and Learned Gentleman whom he saw opposite (Mr. F. Kelly) had introducei a Bill in the last Ses. sion of Parliament ern that important subject. It was for the House to consider whether they could now go further than the extent they had hitherto gone in the initlation of capit a l punishment, and, if so, to what ex tent. Tne Hon. and Learne 1 Gentleman stated last year that it was his opinion the capital punishment might be abolished altogether. but that was not the measure which he (Mr. P. Kelly) now proposed to the House, but one which would abolish capital punishment for all offences, with the exception of treason and murder. These were the principles on which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman proceeded very clearly and dis tinctly. He (Lord J o h n R usse ll) was not persuaded that it was expedient t o a b o li s h capital punishment altogether, because he thought it was at times nem sary. But, at the same time, public opinion with re spect to this subject must b e l oo k e d to, and they must see whether the changes already made in the criminal law operated well, and wisether public opinion would go along with them in maireaieing the proposed charges in the law ; because, i n a country w here the decision on that question was by t r i a l b y J ur y—licre the persons who should ulti ma t e l y d ec id e w h e ther the life of a w human being should be taken away or not— are persons selectrA from t h e general body of the country—it must depend very much on the country whether or not capital punish ment should be abolished.—(Hear, hear.) Because if it was the general opinion, however erroneous, that capit.d punishment should be inflicted for certain of fences, although it might be said that punishment was excessive— although it might be said that there was nothing in the offence itself which required that extreme and irrevocable punishment, yet so far as the prevention of crime, the great ohjoa of the criminal law, was con cerned, if the opinions of the country was in favour of the infliction of that punish meat, it woull tend to prevent that crimi ; for instance, not a great m for the crime of sheep-stealing, years ago, on a certai n cir cu it, a J u d ge o f this country, after the ver dict of the; Jury, condemned fourteen persons to death and all those fourteen persons were banged. The punishment at the time was thought an extreme one, but the Judge thought it his duty to inflict it, and the Jury thought it their duty to find 1130 persqe guilty ; and with regard to the crime of sheep stealing, it was effective for a certain time in the prevention of that crime. But if the opinion in that respect was changed, though the law declared that certain crimes should be visited with death, yet if there was such a repugnance on the part of jurors, that although the indictments might be found by the Grand Jury, although the evidence be fore the Petty Jury might be convincing to the mind of any reasonable man, still, if Id e repug nance to inflict capital punishment might be so great in the minds of the Jury that they would find a verdict of not guilty, in spite of the evidence before both the Grand Jury and the Petty Jury, then the Legislature would, in that respect, not attain their object. Crime would not be prevented, because a person who would he likely to commit a crime would have a temptation to commit it. He would not have the punishment of death before his eyes ; because, whatever the declare. lions of the statute law might be, those persons would look to what the law was in operation—what it was by the verdict of a Jury and the sentence of the Judge, and likewise by the recommendation of the Judge to the Crown respecting the sentence—those persons, see ing that one was se'doin executed for such offences, would not be deterred from the commission of them by that law. Omitting all the questions which were raised by runny persons in this country, and the opinions which probably the lion. and Learned Gentleman himself entertained as to the lawfulness of executing the pu nishment of death in any case—looking to that which he (Lord J. Russell) said was the object of society—to prevent crime—it was a question to consider how far the criminal law as at present constituted effected that oh j ct. They had made very great alterations in the criminal law—they bad very much reduced the num ber of offences for which persons were by law punishable with death, and with respect to certain offences there was on the statute book the infliction of that pen ilty commanded, but which was not in practice. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite had taken all these ques tions together, and had proposed them in one Bill. He (Lord J. Russell) did not feel that th e y oug h t to l oo k to the abolition of the punishment of death altogether. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite ought to have proposed a different course to the House. He (Lord J. Russell) would propose a course considering offences separately, with the exception of a certain number ; in regard of which no doubt existed in the mind of any person. The Legislature had abolished the punish ment of death with regard to some verygreat offences— with respect to forgery, &c. The Bill of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in the first place, took cognizance of crimes of that sort. "With respect to embezzlement by the servants of the Bank of England, and bills of the South Sea Company, stamped duties, &c., there Was no doubt whatever that in such cases they ought not to leave on the statute•book the announcement of the pu nishment of death. That announcement also ought, he thought, to be removed in the case of persons return ing from transportation to St. Helena. He therefore brought in his present Bill, which he conceived the Le gislature could have no hesitation in passing into a law. There was another subject on which he (Lord John Russell) had stated a difference of opinion last year, and respecting which he went to the extent of saying, that they ought not to grant the total abolition which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Kelly) desired. It was with respect to the offence of destroying or burning ships in the Queen's dock-yards. He (Lord John Russell) conceived, with respect to that offence, that if it was committed with a view of destroyisg ships of the navy, or of destroying the whole naval stores of the country in the dock-yards belonging to the Crown, it was an offence of a treasonable nature—that it was an offence which, although it might not be really committed, yet Tel when it was attempted with such intent to cripple and destroy the naval forces of this country, and prevent her Majesty from using the forces of the Crown against aggressions made by foreign enemies, was of so serious a nature, partaking so much of the character of treason, that they ought not to take away from it the severest punishment. At the same time, it appeared to him that the Act was drawn up in such a manner as to involve malicious—and, it might be, and wilful intentions, but yet without destroying of naval stores, with others which were not undertaken with a treasonable purpose, or with a view to cripple the naval resources of the country. He proposed, therefore, an amendment of the Act in this respect, and to endeavour to confine the punishment as much as possible to the greater offence.—(Hear, hear.) There was next an offence which cer tainly was one on which the greatest doubt and diffi culty had been entertained, and on which the Govern-;' meat had come to a decision with very considerable difficulty. He alluded to the offence of rape. With regard to that offence, he (Lord John Russell) felt no doubt in saying, that when that offence was an aggra vated offence, that when it was accompanied by circum• stances which showed it to be an offence of violence with aggravation, it was an offence which ought to be punished with the most extreme punishment which coal I be inflicted. But when they considered this offence as it was brought before the Courts of justice in this country, where great doubts and diffi culties arose, when they considered that those charged with this offence were generally charged upon the evi dence of one person, and, that not a person against whose evidence, as in the case of robbery or attempt to murder, no suspicion could arise ; but that they were persons who were, to a certain degree, subject to the doubt and suspicion that they were endeavouring to clear their own character by bringing a serious charge against another.person—when they considered that these doubts much affected the minds of Juries—that questions of that sort that were brought before Juries were sifted, of course, and that very often different statements were made of circumstances statel in evi dence, and with regard to proofs of the life of both parties, and of circumstances that had happened imme diately before—when all these circumstances were weighed together, if they considered the repugnance there was to give a verdict, which might end in taking away the life ; and the general impression there was that nothing but the most certain evidence ought to induce Juries to bring in a verdict of guilty on a capital charge—they might well conceive that verdicts of acquittal were often pronounced upon persons who had committed the offeace, but still against whom there was not the certain evidence which would induce Juries to bring in a edict that might end in the termination of the life of the prisoner. These considerations had no doubt very much affected tae minds of Juries, and he (Lord J. Rus sell) could show by returns that they had been very powerful in producing verdicts of acquittal. NiW, in the administration of our criminal laws, they must con sider that the Judges had the opportunity of observing in their circuits the impression they produced, Erst upon the gentlemen who formed the Grand Juries, next upon the class of persons who formed the petty Juries, next upon the various classes of barristers, officers of the Courts cf Justice, and indifferent persons with whom they came in contact. Therefore the opinion of the Judges in any case, not in one case only, but generally in cases regarding the infliction of any punishment, was entitled to the greatest weight. He (Lord J. Russell) had been unwilling to state any decision of the C.x) vernmsnt on this subject, because he had been anxious to see if the views, first, of individual judges, and after wards of more, should be corroborated by subsequent ex perience. He would state what the result of that fur ther experiment was. When lie had the honour of being Secretary of State for the Home Department, a case of rape occurred, in which thrce parsons had been concerned, and therefore one which was generally considered as an aggravating case, and one in which the punishment of desth might have been inflicted. The Judge before whom that case was brought, informed him (Lord John Russell) that if be could not make any objection as Secretary of State, he should be prepared as the Judge to recommend that life should be spared. Struck by that opi nion, and knowing the intelligence, ability, and !earning of the Judge, and not being averse himself, whenever he possessed the ability, and thought it safe, for the administrators of the law, to spare life—( Hear, hear)—he (Lord John Russel') stated, that if such a recommendation came, he should at once recommend the Crown to adopt it. The recom mendation was made and life was spared. 'Other cases had since occurred, and it had been found that the Judges generally agreed in the opinion he bad just men tioned, and that they thought, with regard to cases in which conviction was obtained for rape, that the capital sentence ought not to be executed. In stating what had been the result, he stated that what, with. out saying that they could deduce inferences from it, they could entirely defend, was still of considerable weight. The general result had been that when there had been executions one year the proportion of convic tions was less the next year. There was certainly a feel ing against the execution of capital sentences, and if these returns were to be relied on, which he would not say, and they were to be taken altogether, it would he found they entirely concurred. In the year 1834 there were fifty-Eve persons acquitted, and eight convicted of capital crimes. Four of the eight were executed, and four transpbrted for life, the pro portion convicted being one in eight. In the next year, 1835, fifty-two were acquitted and only four convicted, and in all these cases the sentence was commuted. The next year, 1836, forty-six were acquitted and nine convicted, that was to say one in six ; but in that year one person was executed. In the next year, 1837, sixty-seven were acquitted and six convicted, the proportion of those convicted being one in twelve ; but all those convicted were trans ported for life, and there was no execution, In the next year, 1838, thi rty-two were acquitted, and seven convicted, being a proportion of those convicted of 1 in 5 1 for th e y ear i mmed i ately following that i n which all were transported for life. In 1839, sixty were acquitted, and seventeen convicted, the propor tion convicted being lin 4i. In 1840, there were thirty-eight acquitted, and eighteen convicted, the pro portion convicted being nearly 1 in 3. The results, therefore, of these returns were (at least it would seem so), that when executions were carried into effect, in the next year a less proportion were convicted, and that since custom and justice had been that such sentences should in all cases be commuted, very principles, sacrificing his own, that he had limited the Bill to thiso offmces on which he was sure a great majority of the people, especially that class out of which Juries were selected, would go along with Lim to the full extent, It cave him great satisfaction to find that the Noble Lord in advan c i ng that reform which h e h a d s o ably introduced in 1 837, was now willing to concur in the abolition of capital punish ment with respect to several offence; to which Isis Bill advered ; but he must express his disappointment that the Noble Lord had stopped shoo, and had expressed his unwillingness to concur in the abolition of the punishment of death for setting fire to ships in the dockyards, The prir i ciple of the Pill introduced by the N o bl e L or d in the proportion of convictions had been greater. Now, he thought if such was the general re sult, and, without too moth relying upon the re turns, if they saw that such was the general tereleeey of these trials, he thought he might say it was more importarat for the prevention of crime, that they should have a law by which a great proportion were convicted, than a law by which a small proportion were convicted. —(Hear, hear.) The great object was, that a person convicted of crime should be punished ; and whether by the punishment of death, or by transportation for life, if there were a certainty, or nearly a certainty, of punishment, they were likely to prevent more crime than if they made it a lottery, and said that one, or a number, ten, twenty, or thirty should be executed, and the rest should go scot-free.—(Hear, heat.) The disposition of the human mind wit, character was to take the chance of acquittal, which was a considerable chance, and run the risk of execution, rether teen incur the probability, the very strong probabi it y, of banish ment or severe imprisonment as the result of the crime. It seemed to him, therefore, with respect to the crime of rape, that they ought now to take away the punish meet of deatie—( Hear, hear.) At the sane. time it was one of those crimes respecting which, if they re garded particular instances of it, if they regarded the atrocity and violence with which it was committed— looking at it as a conviction for a moral offence, there was no offence for which he thought the House, or the country generally, would be more ready to say ex treme punishment ought to be inffeted. But, looking at a question of this kind, with re spect to the effect of the criminal law, they roust consider what the criminal law was to be and what it could be. They could not make the criminal law—they did not pretend to make it reach moral offences, according to the degree of moral guilt, as a divine power affixed to any moral crime the moral penalty which ought to attach to it. That was beyond their power, end if it were in their power, there was not only this offence but others to which they could not affix such penalties. They could not affix such penalties to many offences to which the indignation of our moral feelings would say that they ought to be affixed. They could not, for instance, affix it in the case of slender. In the case of slander, for instance, a young and inno cent woman might have her whole reputation de stroyed, even her life endangered—the peace of her family destroyed—her innocence unjustly tainted—the greatest possible injury, and from the most malicious motives, might have been inflicted on her ; and yet when they appealed to the law, it was merely a case.of slander, to which pecuniary damages only were affixed. Were their moral feelings satisfied by such a verdict ? No. Was the law wrong ? No. But it was one of those cases which was beyond the law and above the law, the punishment of which must be left to the feelings of mankind, to the conscience of the offender, and to the retribution of eternal life. Still he doubted whether there were not certain cases of the offence of rape, which were deserving of the punishment of death. On that question he consulted Commissioners of the Criminal Law, and persons engaged in the administration of the law, how they would mark the distinction, where they woul I draw a line between offences of rape to be punished with death, and those not to be so punished, and he had never been able to obtain a clear definition. It had been supposed that is offences perpetrated by more than one person, when no consent could be supposed, the punishment of death ought to be inflicted. At the same time, when he considered the wide chasm which separated the punish. meet of transportation from the punishment of death, the wide gulf there was between the two, he must own that he was not satisfied with the distinction that bad been made. lie had stated the case as it appeared to him, be. cause there was no subject on which he bad had so much doubt, and it was not until he had obtained the opinions of the Judges, and seen the results of the convictions of the juries, and he considered well all the circumstances which he had stated, that he had come to the decision that the prevention of the crime was more likely to be accom plished by the infliction of the punishment next to death, than by continuing the punishment of death itself. At the same rime, he thought it was an offence that should be visited with no light punishment, and he would propose, as a substitute for the punishment of death, the punishment of transportation for life, or for not a less period than 15 years. He also proposed, instead of the punishment of death, to inflict the same punishment on persons guilty of the other offences mentiened in the same clause of the Act. He believed he had stated the nature of the three Bills which he proposed to bring in. He was not prepared to make any alterations respecting the Act of 1837, the first of Victoria, with regard to attempts at mut der or burglary attended with violence. He did not mean to say that there were not several offences from which it might not be right to take away the punish. merit of death, but he did not intend to do so by the Bill which he proposed bringing in, and he would rather argue those questions on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's Bill than now. He had stated to the House, when for merly speaking on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's 8.11, that it would be expedient that some general view should be taken of the whole subject of our criminal law, more especially of that part of it relating to the punishment of transportation and imprisonment, in the infliction of which there was no method cr uniformity ; but he had found, on looking over the Acts, that they were so compli cated and confused, that it would be imprudent in the Government, without further information, to bring in BTUs on the subject. He proposed at some future period of the Session to bring in Bills for that purpose, not, however, with any intention of passing them doting the present Ses sion, because he thought it better that subjects of that kied should be fully canvassed throughout the country in order to afford those capable of forming an opinion, an opportunity of communiceting with the Govern ment cr Members of Parliament on the subject—( Hear)._ as the utmost deliberation ought to be used in effecting al terations in the laws upon such a subject. Great progress had been made of late years in ameliorating the extreme severity of our laws, and the great evil at present existieg was the uncertainty respecting the punishment to be in flicted. He was of opinion that they ought not to relin quish any one of their chief punishments. He thought they ought to retain the punishment of death for certain and gross offences, and those only when there were no mitigating circumstances. The next great class of pun ishment, transportation, lie thought, ought also to be retained. He had heard of nothing to con-since him why, as fir as regarded England and Ireland, that punishment ought not to be kept up. With regard to the last class of punishments, imprisonment, an experimeat on the subject was in the course of operation, and they had before them the re sult of the experiment from several p'aces. Rsgard ought to be had to another punishment tallith was not now inflicted in common Courts of Law, &though the punishment it self was actually constantly suffered by criminals ; he meant the punishment of hard labour in the dock yards of the country, but to which the punishment of transportation was frequently commuted by the Secretary cf St rte. He thought they ought to maintain that punishment, but they ought not to leave it entirely to the Secretary of State to say what criminals should be transported, and what crimi nals sent to,hard labour in the dock-yards.—(Hear.) lie thought the punishment ought to remain, but it should be a punishment by Act of Parliament, and not a punishment inflicted by the person holding the office of Secretary cf State, sometimes on the recommendation of the Judges, but often by the advice of the Super intendent of the s dock-yard. He would not enter into further a.gument on t'm subject, as the ques tion was not touched by the Bill which he now pro posed to introduce. He should, therefore, m.;ve for !ewe t i bring in a Bill to do away with the punishment of death in certain cases.--(Cheers. ) Mr. KELLY would be doing great injustice to the Noble Lord, and acting in a manlier little consoeant to his own feelings and opinions, if he hesitated to express the great gratification which he felt at the statement of the Noble Lord, and if he was compelled to admit that that gratification was not altogether unmingled with die appointmeat, he meet scarcely set , how much he re gritted bring compelled to make that admission. Still those who thought as he did could not but entertsie great satisfac'i in at the views which had teen taken by the Governmeat on that questien. The Noble Lord in ad verting. to the Bill he had the honeur of introducing into that House suggested matter which he hat listened to with surprise. The Noble Lord had stated that by the BPI he had introduced he went too far; that he had called upon the Legislature to do more than could! e safely attempted ; but when the Noble Lord suggested to the House that he disapproved of t , :e Bill, and called on the House to enter tain doubts upon its propriety, because its author looked to the entire abolition of the punishment of death, that ap peared to him to be an argument alt Tether unworthy of the Noble Lord in aquestion of such imp , ..rtanee. It was true that he, in common with many others, did look forward to the entire abolition of the punishment of death, as one of the greatest benefits that could be conferred by the Le gislnture on the community, and lie had no doubt the time would come when the punishment of death would be Looked forward to with al great horror Es t ;rture was at the preera moment; but while he thus admjtte• - 1 that he looked forward to the abolition of the punishment of death, he felt bound to say than any measure for its par tial abolition ought not to be looked upon with die. approbaion. In introducing tie Bill to that House, whr h had been real a second time, he c upon the Howe to consider it on its rcer:ts ; if the measure was good, he trusted it would be p isacd, but if the provisions of th..t Bill were bad, then he was cmitent that it should be condemned. But he felt he might with confidence appeal to the Noble Lord himself whether in any other dedaitnent of legislation a measure had been discountenanced because those who supported it west further than the party who had brought in the mea sure; if such was to be 'he case, what, he would ask, would have become of that great measure of legisl rtion in which the Noble Lord took so prominent a part ? In some of the remarks of the Noble Lord he begged entirely to concur; he agreed with him when he said that no Act of Parliament, no course of Legislation, no operation t f the law could be of a-1y effect unless the public voice went a'ong with i , and that observation applied particularly to the Criminal Law ; not only would it be imprudent but mischievous, unless the Juries by whom 'hc lam was administered con curred in the expeiiency and wi-dom of the law. Those who were accustomed to the Courts of Justice felt the effect of that even in civil ea3cs, and it was upon those EVEN! 14 61 , ED 11110_11_- li 1C437 was the aboii , ion of the punishment of , in 4:1 cares aff.. cting property, and le, ther(f could 1,;, If why that offence should still be visited wiLit o f it was said it was treaton-Ille to destroy the PrO c ` t) l ed the Quz ea, why was not t h e same system to be nd°P '-' respect to the Qa,en's palace, or the Crown jevol'e; The pariie. , , who illne would be tempted to de't r q fdro at Maj -sty's dockyards, were net lik e l y t o be deterri‘ the crime by an appr e h ens i on o f puuishrn ent . N° , on ,, nab subject, no one but a n em i ssar y from a folciln en ,„ 1 1(1‘ could bare the smallest temptation ; and he ' 6 %7: to, come to this country with th e i n tent to set re'vu ent ships, or in any other way to dam ge the of thin country, must have such an inducerr,lo3 or such a fearlessness of char,x!er, as that to r y a , t' -e punishment of death would hold out no le ' h what,‘ e-, The offence, then, was one, which, th"g r i i partook of the cha actor of high treason, was re-I, fi l of such ocearence th it Iv trusted th' Na bic t. would be induced to exempt it from capital With respect t perjury i relation to stamps alld arid certain matters cohne:_qed wish the Bank of E.g. b n i , in those cases, no objection was entertained to the or ton of eupi:al punishments: and there were two nu c.-es to wtt:ch. ;he Noble Loid had extended thi. von. But ti.e Noble Lord had net adverted to the of attemp ing to commit Knurfer, or tie uffenees L:1 141r ,_ an robbery att, tided with a degiee of viohnce ~e eiidange e.l life. He c,,uld only undeistand from the eiidange ci life, lie cooll only uudeistan fro silence of. the Noble Lord that he was d;sposkd punishal.nec twin the system of capital punishments in reference to 10 class of offences. It was with unfeigned regret ib ik t o (Mr. F. Kelly) earre to that conclusion. F the Lord would tear in mind the test which lie bad biaiielfB! plied to try tile expedie. cy of calital he would find that there were clearer grounds, w ° o convincing arguments for the abolition in those case c ' ili those offences in which he consented to the abolition. , j one of the Acts of the Noble Lord, a modification oat been introduced with respect to violence, and with int ril to commit grievous bodily harm. As soon as the came into general practice, counts were brought charg d l a tae offence in both ways, capital and not capitalk_ sP hol no case who-e both counts were charged, as far as he heard from persons in the profession, had the Jury punishmen; victed of the capital offence. In every c ase the Jug cc a victed the party of the mi nor o ff ence . The best mans of securing the conviction an d p revent i ng the acquit ! e i the guilty, was t ) abolish capital punishment. fact , continuing these p un i s h ments , they did, i n , or hold out a tempt a ti on to the commision 0 ' . - ee s der, they induced th e p arty to d es t ro y a ,n t rd whom he otherwise wo u ld not h ave d estroye d. He trui ble that upon consid era ti on o f a ll t h e c i rcumstance s the 14° ,bst Lord would be induced to proceed still further 41 5 ja i course cf legislation which had already been so bee e to the country. He trusted that he would soon see nt l i tat punishments altogether abolished, and a ssti d t t e eri and effectual system of recondary punishments intro"„ re in their stead ; and this he believed would be far coy effectual for th prevention of crime, than that ssllg el o - o . system it had so lo ng , an d, f or t h e i nterests o f the c try, so injuriously maintained. pl Mr. SHAW could not coincide in the proPe'',. ll ; ll be the Noble Lord t o ab o li s h t h e capital purishmeetf, i ce) crime of rape. Wh en t h ere was a clealy prov ed there ought to be no doubt as to the punishment" - 4 in such cases it ou g ht t o he death. He entirely ag ree to the general principles laid down by the Noble Lot"' ar e with respect to this crime he could not coincide in the guments used by him. Sir C. DOUGLAS wou ld h ave much p l eas ure ill °I31) ;, porting the Bill o f hi s H on. and Learned Fr i en d, fat his opinion, the Noble Lord had failed in making °i d to case for opposing it. The country was much indebted him for his strenuous exertions upon so important a s ub i i oo - 0 Mr. E WART begged to congratulate the lin i° „;'ulf the fact of the Government coming forward and P rn r,:oo the abolition of the punishment of death with respec t $l - crimes, and he trusted that but few years would Ø. lowed to pass before capital punishment would be unk n , ° ,,,,h• The Noble Lord, he regretted to find, had not iv! stitutel any punishment for transportation, although -butt bad provided secondary punishments in many coon; e o appeared to him that it was extremely injudicious to prnis so large a discretionary power of commuting punishrfirie the hands of the Secretary of State. He was o n c ba that ere long the people would insist uon ascertainingtr. grounds upon which that discretionary power e-c est cised. The Noble Lord had shown with the g reg't 0 clearness that wh ere t h e pun i shment of an o ffence commuted t something less than death, the 11 „L' 51 7:01 convictions was increas e d i n a very large ratio. " 41 ttat from the returns whi c h h a d b een laid upon the tab le ' since the reduction of cap i ta l punishment from 1,244 i,, ; Tie l as to somewhere ab ou t 10 o ff ences, the number o f convif" ~e • had increased i n th e proport i on of three to one. l'lbad joiced in the en li g h tene d v i ews which the Noble P r " go d propounded in the course of his address to the H° llsei he trusted that he would persevere in his p r aiseworthY g ad humane efforts for the mitigation of the crimin 6 l 111 W the country. Mr. P. HOWARD t h oug h t the No bl e Lord me e a t carried his principl e o f the abolition of capital too far. It appe are d to hi m that rape should been excepted, because, if that was done, it sr. move one of the greatest safeguards of wo maa's n n i ° ll4 He entered his sole mn protest aga i nst t h at part GI I Noble Lord's plan, re Leave was the n g i ven to b r i ng i n the Bills, :We'h w e severally read a first time, am] ordered to be read a n ee° time on Friday next. of The other Ord ers o f t h e D ay were then dispose"' and the House adjourned at Twelve o'Clock. THE MARKETS. PRICE OF BREAD. 4lth fo tb The li!ghes't trie of ~r e 4 d i the 1.1..001is is 9% , . A , —r e Loaf. Good Breld may be had at 730. PIIIJE3 OF SEEDS. Per Cwt. New Engtsh lipti Clover...6os L'Os St. Fein —s —a --s Rye Giass Per Old !Pity) Ditto ooo - J .... 0 4 New Foreign Di.to —s 55s 70s Pacey Grass .... .. ......... —1 os ..' et i o 01.1 Ditto Di to —s —s —s Linseed, for terdiog... - ; CO: , 4 1 , ew White Clover 45s st's (its Dit o, for sowing .......-- 401 . Old Di t., Ditto —s —s —s Ditto, for crushing .. ••_ s _,, 311 , MI New 'l're oil —s fit's 4is Hem. .--- ,s 3 ,-- --S 11 " Old Litto —s oos :Xis Cana ry ... Gc Tr folium - s .11:•!s 70s' Quarter .....: o s: elf: Per BosheL to Os ti a English Carraway —s 508 5 s White Mu5t..rd....i4 1 : 0 % d to r t ,;(1,1 —, 46s 50s Brown Ditto Foreign :Alto od Coriander —s 1441 18s,Tares PRICE OF OIL. ..X45 10 Rape Oil, brown, per t on Ditto, refined .) Linseed Oil f.7 0 I Lins ed Oil Cake at th e Mill (per 1000) 7 • /tate _ ake. per to., - ', M S e O lti A ng P, St tc a r .. l2 . 2 . l .. t . x i i ii 4 l t o , Ditto R0ugh.......... . ....... 0 14 o Graves ......................... ~ fr Good Dregs .................. u AT, per stone of 81b3. ~..;, 10 ['allow 3lelters) ............... fAItKET. St last market day, 29. I , 0 0 f p \Valls/End Hetton ..... ....." t 3 Walls End Lambton ..... .... t o ; Walls End Pemberton.' ..... V p W aiiS:Elld WilitWeh ........ i 9 s Walls .Erd Hartlepool ........ yfi 0 %Valls End Kelloe .... ....... '.2l 0 Wails En4l Barret; ............ 0 Walls:End Gordon ... .... f.l 0 %%ail.; End Seymour Teo ... '•;;.? 0 %Val s End Tees . " ......... Is %Valls End Tees Hetton •••• pi Cowixn ......................... ° a r i ( . :ralgoll .......... . ............. ..: i 5 Hartley ........................ .. PRICE OF TALLOW town Tallow .. £2 11 6 Yellow Russia White ... 0 0 t Soap Ditto 0 0 0 PRICE OF RAW F. Price of Tallow (as stated by the - COAL 111 Ships arrived since 1 8. (1 Adair's Bell, Hobson & Co. Hartley 17 G glay(lon Shin l5 t Iluddlc's West Hartley l9 Idolyweil Sian 2J 0 Orig'nal Windsor's 17 9 Shipeote l5 1 Wylant Walls E. d Peivici.e and 21 Was End Clenuell Walls End th Walls Ent! ..... Walls End H o t spur NValls End Pearelh , 17 0 W, E ,l3 raddyll'eHQttoa • „ !,22 3 AR T Vaj t‘ COUNTRY CORN MARKETS DURING L ---_ - __._.---, c . Wheat. Barley. Oats. Beans. ...... 1 ., 1 - - " . -----' .; Per Quarter. s. to s. s. to s. s. to s. s . to S. S. to/ 4 6 k:arlisle - ..... 56 ['exhort) fr..l IS 02 38 2t 23 „*"; 31 Morpeth 54 66 27 29 21 k. 5 28 ,'" 1 53 '.' 4 ,, Benrith 65 32 "3 , ...- I, Slallield — 60 35 :24 —. 7; 35 :J. Winche.4 r 56 (;6 25 30 ` . O "6 40 '* 5 .d. "411 Per Bushel. s.d. s.d. s.d. s. d. s. d. s.d. s. d• 5 ;;" 0 0 0 t lll Carmarthen I, 0 7 0 0 0 3 8 0 0 2 1 5 6 '' I 0 " 0 0 COWbII Igo._ 100 —0 50 s(i 3(i 4 0 5 0 e,'..f 5 r; 6 78 80 4 0 4 1 24 a 8 5 6 u - i, 6 11 0 Swansea Per 8011. Barnardcastl 16 0 IS 9 80 93 74 8611 0 L i 2 6 n 'e 0 f i a Durham l3 0166 8 0 9 5 9 69 8 0 r, ti... I_ ll ,-; Richmond ll 6 ISO 7 0 9) 5 6 SOl 9 0 ;011l - j 0 :Stockton ll 61:0 9 0 9( 7 0 86 8 0 .‘____:.............._% _ 1a......_ STEEL FIRE-IRONS, with Bronzed f 15s. per S e t, B ronze d Fenders, !s. A 'oriel thy terns and prices, f rom th e above to 30s. at which r e ' oess fenders are parti c ul ar ly h an d some, w i t h sp l en did fer% )ll , e he cur richly intermix e d w ith s t ee l, t h e en d s are stee l, as° r *„.iroollo porters for the fire-i rons b ronze d . P o li s h e d s teal from 4s. per set. tid e ° Catalogues gratis, contai n i ng th e p r i ces o f every : Furnishing Ironmongery. RIPPON and BURTON, Wells-street, Oxford -street. Established 1820. BIRTHS. Lady M argareb On the 7th inst., at B os l ey H ouse, K ent, t h e La Marsham, of a son and heir. the 1011 On the 7th inst., at Askew-villa, Shepherd's Bush, of Thomas Mortimer Cleoburey, Esq., of a son. wilsoat On the 7th ins.., at Stamford hill, the lady of Josi ah Esq.n the 7th of a son. m S. O inst., at Barrusbury-park, Islington, Toms, of a daughter. of Vl ' On the 7th inst., at Upper Woburn-place, the l a- Y Hussey, Esq., of the Midd'e Temple, of a daughter.On the 7th in s t., i n Ch ester-square, t h e lady 01 Shand, Esq., of a daughter. MARRIED. 7 Car On he 4th inst., at St. Mary Stoke Church, Ipswie, of tain Henry Phillipps, son of the late Rev. J . chug Eaton House, Herefordshire, to Lucy Burch, eldest " of J. B. Smyth, Esq., of Stoke Hall:Suffolk. Mr. F. On the 4th inst., at St. Mary's Church, Isling ton ' ter e' , W. Johnson, of Cloud es ley-square, to Sarah, eldest daub I; A. JOrie3, Hemingford-terrace, Islington. fichire, On the 4th inst., at Bishopsteignton Church, De_ A v e s --- -E s q., T. Galabin, Esq., t o M argaret, d aug h ter o f G. of Tappley Cottage, Bishsteignton. wor- On the 4th inst., at Itochford Church, near Te" burY ' c rf eestershire, William Lambert, Esq., to Jane , daughte r W'yld, Esq., of th e Wansworth-road, Surrey. DIED. , Oltl ,e e r firs_t ig of February, at Frankfort, KentucKY,... A lban Alexander Ale-- i.' u s tb. , of Ai , rd b re r e ot H %r us t e o Lthaenarßkieirte lion. Sir w On the 10th of Februar ' , in Widcornbc-cresc ent, Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas Shaw, late of the Hon. Eas; at p . Company's Service, in thiir Bengal establishment, a'red rbter On the 28th ult., at Leiimingtori, Charlotte, second dalig of Colonel Gold, C.B. Oa the 2Sth ult., Richard Burke, Esq., D. , late of hack, ville-s'rcet, Te o, On the sth inst., Anna, voung,ust child of Mr. W of Sutton-couit Lodge, Ciswitked 17. Oa the sth inst., at Hastings, , S ag ussex, Henry Westbrook, Esq., of Heston, Middlesex. d 40 ' On the 2d inst., M. J. Tucker, of IsToble-street , age Ruth On tha inst„ in Chester. street, Grosvenor-el_ae6 Elhu...betli, willow of the late Captain Cuthbert, R.Pi• Basa ld On the 28th ult., at 13arnsbury-terrace, Mackenzie,formerly of New York, aged 67. , we, On the 4th i q nst., Mrs. Mary Palmer, of Alarlbor ou g n_P Walworth, aged 77 o r London: Printed and Published b 1111.711D 0 in No. 11 . 2, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 112, Stratic. the scanty of Middlesex.--Tuesday, March 9, leo. to