The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-02 00:00:00

Country. He (Lord Darnley; endeavoured to obtain from the Government returns of the number of Irish who cam country for the last three years. It was, however, impossible to ascertain the fact ; hut he might at all events take it for granted that the numbers had been rapidly in creasiog. The consequence would be, that in a little time it veould produce what he might call an amalgamation of •misery in the two countries. The Irish peasant would he found either starving at home, or living on the English pootarates. Let nut their Lordships take this on his (Lord T2darnley's) assertion. He was borne out by the report of the emigration committee. (Here the Noble Earl read a passage from the report, arguing that unless relief was afe forded through means of emigration, the consequencewoeld be the ruin of the English and the Scotch labourer, parti cularly since the facilities of travelling had been increased between the two islands by means of the steam navigation.) His Lordship next referred to a clever publication, written by Dr. Elmore, a very intelligent gentleman who had, hr said, established a manufactory in tke south of Ireland, which, however, he had been obliged to withdraw, from the want of security. In this publication, which the writer had done him (the Earl of Darnley) the honour so address to him, were the following observations, which were well worthy of attention---'‘ The irresis tible tide of emigration from Ireland towards these countries has already set in, and has been materially facilitated by steam navigation ; so much so, that the credulity of the most ignorant will coon be convinced that 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 of people ; with all their natural powers, and great energies of mind, will not much longer suffer, without making en effort to find beater quarters." Every year, it is ascertained that inoreasing thousands are coining over ; and in a short time it is to be apprehended, that driven by want, aerti aided, as they now are, by the subscriptions of the tither classes in Irelauti they will coins over in horde;, like the Goths and Vandals of other times, and make a settlement in this country, where they hope their labour will be duly rewarded, and from which no Act of Parliament will be able to dislodge, them. By competition for employment, they will be able se defeat every humane effiirt to keep up the present con dition of the labourers of England; their necceeeities will oblige them to work fur half the usual teeages in this cowl try; the English workman must either work for the same rate, er he will not get employment ; he is thus thrown on the poor -rates for parish alloWance, and in a l it! tvay is the burden of supporting the Irish poor put opon parishes! Such considerations are by no means chimerical, for, to a certain extent it is already actually the case. If this sys tern went on, continued his Lordship, the rents of the Irish landlords would be paid out of the English peer-rates. The Noble Earl here read extracts from tint evidence of Dr. Doyle and others before the Committee, descrip tive of the wretchedness of tire Irish poor, and its effects; although, his Lordellip said, the present tTre halcyon days with the Irish peasantry, for they might exist for three farthings a day, that being the price of a stone of potatoes in the county of Limerick at piteent. He might also sell his pig at a high price; the animal which he told the Englishman, "had the best right to associate with his family, because it was it that paid the rent." The only relief in the power of Government was emigration, and if that were carried into effect, it could only afford partial relief. But it seemed that would be more advantegeesas here than in Ireland. He knew that it had been adopted in some parishes to relieve the poor-rates. A gentleman in the county of Kent told him, that by Means of a sum of money lent by him on security of the poors'-rates, 18 indi viduals had emigrated from that parish, and he was convitte ced that the saving which was thereby effeeted in the posers' rates would repay him in a short time. But when he limed that 1,140,0001. had only defrayed the expenses of the emigration of 96,000 persons in three years, and when he contrasted that number with the populetion of Ireland (eight millions)—supposing only six or even five millions of these unemployed, and supposing that the whole of this sum weve appropriated to Ire lanfl,—it appeared that this teem would only enable one sixtieth or one-fiftieth of the Irish unemployed population to emigrate in three years, in which period the increase of population would more than fill up the gap. The Noble Earl next referred to a publication of Mr. Sedler's, to show that population always increased in the inverse ratio of its density. The more you unpeopled Ireland, therefore, the snore her population would increase. Thus in the province of Ulster, which consisted of 251 square miles, the increase of population from )813 to 1821 was 11 per cent. ; in Leinster, 216 square mike, 16 per cent. ; in Munster, 204 • square miles, 20 per cent. ; and in Connaught, 162 square • miles, and the most thinly inhabited province, 2S pet- cent, But there were other sources also. It was in the power of individuals to something—and he was quite sure that every Noble Lord who had property and influence in Ireland would see the necessity of spending some part of his income, at least in alleviating the misery of that part of the population of. the country who were found upon hie estate. The only way in which this misery could be effectually alleviated was, by giving occasional employment to those unable to procure it for themselves. It wee anticipated by all those who advocated the Union, that the diffusion of capital throughout Ireland would be one of the consequences of that ineasine. Da they hail been disappointed, and why had they been disappointed Because Mr. Pitt had newer been able to carry another measure which there could be no doubt that Minister con eemplated. It was perfectly notorious, though, indeed, lie had heard it contradicted in that House, that Mr. Pitt did contemplate the success of that great measure, and Lord Camden had expressly stated the settlement of the great question of the Catholic claims was one of the plans of those persons who brought about the Union between the two countries. Until all religious distinctions were re moved, and that question for ever set at rest, which had, and which would ever continue to be, the bane of Ireland, property would still be insecure in that country, and her inhabitants would still remain in their present unsettled and discontented state. And what hail been—what must ever be the result ? Clearly this—that no capitalist in hits senses would trust his money in such a country. But he would not anticipate this great question, which must shortly be brought under the serious consideration of their Lordships. Front the very nature of his subject, how ever, he was compelled to advert to it. It had been Mated, and lie heard the statement with the utmost Astonishment, that the rich only were interested in this eilestion. But this statement was nit only unfounded led incorrect, but it had been made in the face of the proofs adduced before a Committee of the House of Commons of the feeling which pervaded the'whole Pop" • lation of Ireland on this question, and of the discontent. and irritation which that question excited in the minds of the, people of that country, whatever their rank or station might be. It was impoesible that the 'Tor must not be more interested in tranquillizing Ireland than the rich ; and he absolutely despaired of any important amelioration in the condition of that unfortunate people till this great question was. set at reet. [The Noble Lord here read the evidence of Mr. James Cropper, which was to the effect, that not only was not English capital sent to Ireland, but that Irish capital was constantly transferred to England, in consequence of the insecurity of property in the former country.] The Noble Lord continued. He had been in formed, and he believed that his information might be de pended upon, that Irish capital, amounting to between 5,000,000/. and 9,000,0001., was at this moment invested in the Englielt Funds. Now, Mr. Cropper also stated it to be his opinion, that the distrust arising from the Ca tholic Question was the cause of this insecurity of pro perty in Ireland. Ile ( the Earl o f D arnl ey) had also been informed that very day, that there were millions of English capital ready to be vested in Ireland as soon as that question was set at rest. Were their Lordships then to be told that the poor of Ireland had no interest in the question? tea interest in a questio n which, .fsettled, wo u ld procure them employment and the meads of comfort able subsistence? He trusted that their Lordships would never again be told that the rich alone were interested in this question, and that it was a matter of perfect indif ference to the poor. He would not fatigue their upon their their Lord ships muc h l onger; b ut must en d e avour to fix attention the fact, that in Ireland there was a large pro- . portion o f the population able and willing to work, but iiltugether destitute of eniployineut. He trusted that their' Lordships wou ld not re f uge an i nqu i ry i nto this subject, because surrounded by difficulties.. In a pamphlet lately published, and entitled, "A Report to Marquis Wellesley from Mrs. Fry and Mr. John Joseph Gurney," it was suggested as an expedient for the amelioration of the con dition of the Irish people, that an extension of those esta blislanents which existed more particularly in Dublin, but whose exertions had been cramped by want of funds—he meant the Mendicity Associetiene—might be productive of much good. It was suggested, th at b y esta bli s h ments o f this nature, which should be supported , by v o l un tary sub scriptions, and aided to a certain extent by the Govern inent, the poor would stand some chance of being taken care of in sickness and povera . .. He thought the suggestion worthy of c onsiderat.:it, but th e po i nt which he wished to impress upon their Lord s hi ps was this,—that, at present,there was no provi sion whatever for the poor of Ireland, except t h e bounty of their neighbours, and that there had been numerous instances of these unhappy persons . having p e e rished from actual starvation. The Noble Lord (the Earl of Limerick) shakes his head, and say; that such things have sometimes happened in England; but, though such occurrences might now and then have happened in the sh_rtolew tropelis and in towns, he defied the Noble Lord to him the possibility of it happening in the country, By the evidence of Mr. John Markham Marshall, who had erected large works in Ireland, it appeared that hundreds flocked in to obtain employment, and tuany of them had not tasted food for two days, and some were so weak that he was obliged to feed them for six weeks before he could put them to work. He (the Earl of Darnley) knew, of his own knowledge, of a set of labourers who were put to work by subscriptions last summer; and among them were some in such a state of exhaustion, from want of food, that the overseer was ashamed to set theni to work. It was therefore his wish to see if some means could adopted, by which local cOntributions should be insisted Upod how the landowners, in order to extricate their indigent fellow-creature; from destruction. [The Noble Lord here read some extracts front papers, which he said were the " Annals of a Village" in a part of Ireland which was in comparative prosperity, and froth therti it appeared that many persoiis lid been found dead iii the neighbourhood-, and that there was every reason to be lieve that they died of starvation.] He would again assert his conviction, that at this moment many perished front I actual want. Was it possible, then, that be was speaking in a tivilized and Christian country, when, wit!: these dreadful facts before their eyes, ha was told that he was opening a shop of t - rievances? Why, Ireland had been a bazaar, well stocked with grievances for many years tact. Was lie speaking in an assembly of Christians He had found their Lordships, uti a late occasion, very anxious to call themselves Christians, and would they now see their ftllow-Christians starving? He felt that he had Net', able to give but an imperfect representation of the state of this unhappy people. Did their Lordships believe the representation which he had made? Then let them grant the inonity, as the only means of providing a remedy. Did their Lordships think that he over-stated the case ; teat he had coloured the picture too highly? Let them bring it to the test of an inquiry. In either case he was justified in calling upon their Lordships to agree to his motion. The Noble Duke at the head of the Administra tion had not, he was sure, forgotten the services of that people, to whom he was greatly indebted for the com position of those armies which, as a soldier, he had so often led to victory ; and now that the Noble Duke was Prints Minister of the country, surely he would leave no mans untried to relieve their distress, or hesitate to have recourse to the measure which he (the Earl of Darnley) contended could alone effect permanent good to Ireland. He would detain theta Lordships no longer than to move, that "a Szlect Committee he appointed to inquire into the diStreised state of Ireland, and to report thereon. On the question being put, The Earl of LIMERICK said, the Noble Lord bad moved for a Committee, but upon what grounds? Upon rumour; the most vague. The Noble Lord had, indeed, giren theni the evidence ar,d opinions of . Catholic priests, but he had adduced no facts which could warrant their Lordships in pi oceeding to the appointment of a Com mittee. He really thought that when any Noble Lord gave notice of a motion, involving the peace and tran quillity of a nation, some strong and sufficient grounds ought to he adduced in support of the motion. He was apprehensive that the whole end, the secret purpose, of the Noble Lord, was to introduce the Poor Laws into Ire land ; and he was convinced that, than this, no measure could be more pregnant with danger and mischief. He would appeal to the Noble Lords around him, many of whom were well acquainted with Ireland, whether they recognized any similitude to the original in the highly coloured caricature which the Noble Lord had presented to their view ? The Noble Lord had said at the beginning of his speech that he did not wish to introduce the Poor Laws, in all their rigour, into Ireland. He (the Earl of Limerick) rejoiced to hear this declaration of the Noble Lord's. But it was with the greatest surprise that he had heard the Noble Lord, in the conclusion of his speech, which, like all other things, car ried mischief in its tail, declare that this forced assessment was absolutely necessary. The Noble Lord, whose feelings of humanity were strong with respect to the poor Irish, would debar them from earning to this country in search of what every individual had a right to—the means of sub sistence. Would the Noble Lord say that Irishmen must not come to this country ? Then let him stop them in the attempt. Let him say to them—" Misery and wretchedness are stamped upon your face. It is true that there is an union, hut it is a mere paper union. Go back, you shan't pollute our shore with your footsteps." Would the Noble Lord do this? He (the Earl of Limerick) would not. But, did the Noble Lord mean to say, that it would he satisfactory to Ireland that 7,000,0001. should be paid for poor's rates, as in this country? If such a syatem were introduced, then indeed would the Spencean doctrines be practically felt throughout the country ; then 01l would be equality; and as long as any property existed in the country, the Irish would eat the bread of idleness, and refuse to engage in any labour, ex cept the labour of getting children, and swelling the popu lation to an overwhelming extent.—(Hear, and laughter.) How had Ireland been reduced to this extremity, but by the oppression of their sorestors ? From the reign of Elizabeth to the year I 753, all was oppression. The great Lord Stafford, writing to a certain Min ster in this countrv, said, that though he allowed the Irish a little trade, he would take care to suppress their rising energy for trade and commerce, and adopt such measures as would prevent Ireland from ever competing with England in any Way whatever. The successors of that nobleman adopted the same line of policy. Ireland must export nothing ; its cattle must not be sent to this country, because they would lower the market. Let the taxes be taken off the people of Ireland, and then they would be found to be an indus trious nation. There was one part of the Noble Lord's speech with which he fully concurred. Let the people of that coun try be placed upon an equal footing, and in a very short time they would hear no more about poverty and distress. The Noble Lord had talked of the Act of Elizabeth; but if the proper course had been adopted then—if they, to whom the revenues of the convents and monasteries were granted, had been made t I support the poor, there would have been no occasion for such an Act. But the Noble Lord was mistaken in saying that there was no provision for the poor in Ireland. It appeared by an authentic statement, which he held in his hand, that the revenues of one poor-house alone amounted to upwards of 1,882/. Whatever might be said to the contrary, the Government had done much. They had employed people in great numbers, as far as lay in their power, and they could not do more. The Noble Earl's proposition for a modified poor-rate could not, he conceived, succeed. It would, in fact, leave the distress of Ireland just in the same state as before. It would inflict a heavy grievance on ens class of persons in the country, but it would not alleviate, much less remove, the extreme distress under which the people were writhing. Though he felt great respect for the opi nions of the Noble Earl, still he deemed it to be his duty to oppose this motion. The Earl of LONGFORD, in opposing the motion, hoped it would not be understood that ha meant, in taking that course, to deny the existence of great distress in Ire land. His reason for opposing the motion arose entirely from his conviction, that the provision which the Noble Earl seemed inclined to propose would not have the effect which he hoped would arise from it. Considering the impracticability of applying to useful purposes such a mea sure as the Noble Earl contemplated, and believing that if general relief were granted, the mischief occasioned by it would he infinitely greater than any good that it was likely to effect, he trusted that their Lordships would not sanction it. The Noble Earl appeared to think, that the misery of Ireland was mainly to be attributed to the failure of the Popery question. This was one of the many nostrums put forth for the tranquillization of Ireland ; but in his opinion, like other boasted specifics, it would not produce the supposed effect, if recourse were had to it. Lord LORTON complained that although the Noble Earl (Darnley) was an excelient landlord, he was only an absentee, and wanted the - practical experience necessary to enable him to arrive at a correct conclusion on this great I subject.. In• much that he had said, however, regarding etiiidee(ranryd beggedoft he Irish peasantry, he (Lord Lorton) coin to add the result of his own actual ex perience ; in doing so be would " nothing extenuate, nor • set down aught in malice." The extreme poverty of the people was the gre a t ev il o f I reland, and many cases m i ght be assigned for thi s ca l am i tous cond i tion of the people. It was not his intention to occupy the time of their Lord ships by a . detail of many var i et i es o f t h ose causes. Nu merous recipes had been proposed, and each as a radical cure, and of one of them something had been already said i.il Y ia e m ar en a t f , t E e ,, r mnd ) a -e na a ci r nipo i an t tg h io ad sno i n h ) : H e i i et i in the course ofatttehnetioviein.o7gP. forced on the went by the erroneo.us title of Catholic would endeavour briefly to ascertain how far such a measure, if carried into effect, would improve the condition of seven millions of fellow-creatures. The more attention he had given to this question, the more he was confirmed in the opinion that if the claims were conceded the mi ser i es of Ire land would be increased , an d the chains of her !slavery rivetted. He requested their Lordships to take only a cursory view of the sw t p ze r n n d t o::,o,enrd iltvihonichofthdeiffsaemreentci,Trrts; of ghts Europe. aver l were enjoyed joyel by all, some of the cantons were Protestant,. and some Ca tholic ; in the former all was industry, comfort, and clean liness—in the latter, every thing presented an appearance . the very reverse. How, then was such an extraordinary circumstance, such a phenomenon, to be accounted for'.' It could not be the effect of the penal laws, which were stated to be so grievous in Ireland, for they did not exist, with the exception of such as popery enacted, and would enact as long as it retained its religious dominion. Proceed ing southward to Italy, the garden of Europe, it was seen that Catholicism there spread its baleful influence; and, under a pure sky, and in a genial climate, languished the poor cultivators of the soil. As they approached the head quarters of the Romish priesthood they would be more for cibly struck with the deplorable aspect of the country—it was the perfect fitc , simiie of Ireland and of Irish cabins. —A similar observation might be made of every country in which the Roman Catholic religion bad full sway.— There was no real patriot, no man who wished to benefit his country. that Ns mild lend himself to a Measure that would reduce this noble and free country td a state of slavery, and which would introduce every calamity that could be in flicted on mankind. Having said so much on the first Tiestion, he should make a few observations upon the second. There was a Parliament regularly sitting in Ireland—it exacted universal obedience, and issued its orders to the high and the low, the tich and the poor. One of the polished geniuses of Popery in that body in ad dressing his deluded countrymen, used this exciting - quo tation,— . _ " Hereditary bondsmen ! know ye not Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." That Parliament must be crushed ; and to crush it would be a positive act of Mercy to the people, whom it kept in real bondage. Tht?. College of Maynouth was a proof of the blind obedience required from the people. Enough wa s known of them to make it worthy of becoming a question, whether they should be permitted to exist? Its priests were dispersed throughout Ireland, and every where arrayed themselves against the system of Parish Schools and of plans of instruction. Their inhence is directed against all who do not submit to them. As an instance of that, he would mention, that an eminent physician, a man of very high talent, was in one of the towns of Ireland denounced by one of the priests, and was in consequence stripped of all his practice. This was only one of a numerous class of cases which sheaved who were the oppressors and who the oppressed. There was, he was, bound to say, a striking contrast between priests who were educated abroad, and those who came from the College of May , nooth.—(llear, hear.) The former were well disposed to wards the Protestants; but the others had for their ob ject to drive all those out of the country who would not submit to their violent and arrogant pretensions. If their Lordships wished to perpetuate the miseries of Ireland, let them grant Catholic Emancipation, for then those miseries would be rendered perpetual, confirmed as the power of the Priests would be by this creation of an imperium in imperio. He might be asked what he should propose as a remedy for the miseries of Ireland. He felt no difficulty in giving an answer, and his answer was simply this. " Gire work to all who want it." He might be asked how he proposed to afford employment to those who want ed it ?—(Hear, hear.)—He thought a sufficient fund might be raised for that purpose from a general land and absentee tax, which, under proper regulations, might be employed in the country from which it was raised with the greatest benefit. By this plan they would change the habits of the people,.and render Ireland what, most unfor tunately, it was not now—namely, a desirable place to re side in. He trusted that that country would no longer he de luded with half measures, or what were falsely called measures of conciliation. These had been tried over and over again, and had always failed. Let something he done for the relief of the poor, and without ceremony, let them extinguish the Popish Priests. Then, and not till then, would Ireland be emancipated, in the true sense of the work. In proof of this he would refer them to the contents of a Report, made by the Guild of Merchants in Dublin, on the 22d of February last, in which was a most accurate statement of the present condition of Ireland, and in which it was proved that the respectability, the wealth, and the strength of Ireland were in the Protestants, and not in the Catholics, as the demagogues said. All the Protestants required was to be supported ; and if they were, they would do their duty by the Empire, and every thing would assume a most satisfactory appearance. The Duke of WELLINGTON—I have but a few words to address to your Lordships, and those few words shall be confined to the question immediately before the House. That question is, whether we should establish a Committee to inquire into the circumstances stated, with regard to the condition of Ireland, by the Noble Earl. Before, however, I proceed to the discussion of that point, I may assure him that I am thoroughly convinced there is no part of his Majesty's dominions that require so much the attention of his Majesty's servants as Ireland. The Noble Earl has told us that there are eight millions of people in that country, six millions of whom require employment. He has told us, likewise, that all the wealth of Ireland is not sufficient to give employment to these people. My Lords, I must say, with every respect for the Noble Earl, that I cannot but think that this is an exaggerated statement on his part. It cannot be a fact that there are six millions of people in that country who require employment ; but it is of no use inquiring into that particular part of the subject (though I must say I dispute it), because, in point of fact and he has stated the evidence that the House has before it on this subject, the poor there do suffer a most consi derable degree of distress. It is not true that the distress exists at all times; it is not true that it exists in the same degree in different years ; but it is true that it does happen at particular times, front the casual circumstances of the seasons, and from the particular food on which the people there subsist. The Noble Earl has told us this food is sold at three farthings a stone. Now really that that people should suffer distress, except as I have already stated, from the casual circumstances of the seasons, with provisions at that price, does appear to me a matter that hardly requires any inquiry, except at the time that'the supply of that food does fail from the circumstances of the seasons. No inquiry is necessary to prove that when that event happens, distress must ensue. If we want evidence of that fact, we have it before us in the statements of persons of authority.— There can be no doubt of it. Then I say that that distress has no regard to the want of work among the people. That want of work the Noble Earl does not call on us to relieve, fur to that relief he says that all the wealth of Ireland is in sufficient ; but he requires us to relieve the lame, the im potent, the aged, and the sick. Now, I believe it is true, as the Noble Earl statue, that we may relieve the second branch, but not the other. The gentlemen of Ireland have already contributed largely to the relief of that casual dis tress. It is true, with all that can be done, when there is ge nerd distress arising from the circumstances I have already stated, that all they can do will not relieve all the cases of distress, and that shocking instances of distress will happen; but I must beg leave to say, that if he intends to confine relief solely to the aged, the impotent, time lame, and the sick, it will fall short very far short, of doing away with that distress which arises from a want of employment. It is for those who are in want of employment that relief is required in Ireland, and not for the others. There is another observation I will make, which results from the state of the poor in this country. The Poor Laws of this country are applied, and the great burden which attends that part of the law is, that it requires work shall be furnished to the able bodied. The reason why this system must be pursued in Ireland, if the Poor Laws are once established there, is not merely that these persons require employment and food, but in truth, if work is not furnished, and food given to these able-bodied persons, they will im mediately fall sick ; and I beg your Lordships to look to this, that if this is a burden on the landed property of Ire land, you must suffer it ; for if it is admitted to be neces sary to give food to the sick, while it is refused to the able bodied, the consequence will be, that half the pop - illation will claim it, for nobody will work, and when they fall sick, they will come on the rates. It seems to me that the measure now proposed is not a fit subject for the inquiry of Parliament. It has been said, truly, that one of the great evils of Ireland is want of capital. I beg, however, to remind your Lordships, that capital alone will not necessarily prevent the existence of the evil, and re- move the burden of the poor; and as an evidence of the truth of this assertion, I relay refer to the example of this country, in which there is no want of capital. It has been said, that 95 millions of that capital belong to Ireland alone ; and yet, for the sustenance of the poor of this country seven millions were required in the course of last year.-- All this is perfectly well known. That fact has been stated in the opinions of Mr. Frankland Lewis and others who have been examined before your Lordships. They have told you that the Poor Laws, as they exist here and in Scotland, are not applicable to Ireland. You have these opinions for your guidance, and I should like to know why you should now have a Committee on this subject to require similar opinions from different persons? A Com mittee on such a subject tends only to excite anticipations in the public mind, which it would be discreet to avoid ; and I therefore think that, unless some plan well attested is submitted to our consideration, we had much better avoid an inquiry that may only lead to disappointment. The Earl of MOONTCASHEL opposed the motion on two grounds, I st, beeause, if they granted relief, it would only enable the people to pay more money to the Catholic Association ; 2d, that it would diminish the rent of the landlords, and if the lands were not cultivated, the country would be depopulated. So long as the people could get a potato, and were not asked for rent, so long would they be satisfied. The Earl of DARNLEY, observing, the feelings of the Noble Duke opposite, and perceiving that they were con curred in by many Noble Lords connected with Leland, ivho must be better acquainted with what was calculated for its happiness, felt th a t b e o ught n o t p er ti nac i ous ly to persist in pressing his motion: He was not more friendly to the Catholic Religion than was the Noble Lord (Lorton): who was so anxious t..) Pi otestantize Ireland ; but mire be was that the constant vituperation of the Catholics, and of their Clergy, was not the best mode of making con verts, or of allaying the animosities, that unfortunately prevailed in that country. Lord Loatox, Lord LIMERICK, and Lord MOUNT CASHEL, severally explained. The question was then put, and the motion was nega tived without a division. Several private Bills were passed through their respec tive stages. PENRYN DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Pen tyn Disfranchisement Bill. Counsel were called in, and witnesses examined in sup port of the Bill. John Spry was examined relative to the canvass of 1824. Witness proved that 51. had been paid to a person named Mallet, to be given by him to a voter of the name of Durn , tan. Mallet was then called in, and proved that he gave 51. to Dunstan to vote, just as he was about to give his vote. Capt. Fellows, R.N. was examined. He had heard of several instances of bribery ; but none came under his own notice. He believed that four-sevenths of the voters re quired to be paid for their votes. The Marquis of SALISBURY observed that if the House went on in this manner, examining witnesses as to facts with which they were unacquainted, the House might go on ad infinitum The further examination of the witnesses was then post poned, and the House adjourned at ELEVEN O'CLOCK. HOUSE OF COMMONS, ➢IAY 1. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock, and the I-7 1 ?vse proceeded to business. Mr. Crafer, from the Treasury, brought up the monthly return of the amount of Bank of England Notes in circu - lation.--Laid on the table. -------- HIBERNIAN JOINT STOCK COMPANY. Mr. DOHERTY presented a petition from Waterford in favour of the Bill for the Dissolution of the Hibernian Joint Stock Company. Lord ENNISMORE presented a petition in favour of the Bill for the dissolution of the Company. Lord ENNISMORE then moved that the order of the day, for the adjourned debate on the Bill for Dissolving the Hibernian Joint stock Company, be read. The SPEAKER said that the original motion was, that the Bill should be read a second time, to which an amend ment was proposed that a select Committee should be ap pointed to inquire into the merits of the petition. Mr. PAULETT THOMPSON who moved the amend ment, obtained leave to withdraw it. The House then divided on the original question, For the second reading 33 Against it The numbers being equal, the speaker gave the casting vote for the second reading of the Bill. The Bill was then ordered to be read a second time. EAST LONDON RAILWAY. Sir E. HARVEY presented a petition from thirty-six individuals, Sugar Bakers of London, in favour of this mea sure. The Hon. Baronet stated it as a curious fact, that every one of the petitioners was worth upwards of 100,0001. Referred to the Committee. - - Mr. GRATTAN presented a petition against the Bill for dissolving the Hibernian Joint Stock Company. He said that two persons belonging to the Stock Exchange had presented a petition to this House as Proprie tors of the Hibernian Joint Stock Company. This petition was presented in 1828 ; but the fact was, that the peti tioners had sold their shares in the Company, in 1825. He proposed that the petition should he referred to the Committee on the Bill. The SPEAKER said, that the Committee on the Bill had nothing to do but to consider the merits of the Bill. The petition was then laid on the table. Mr. W. SMITH brought up the Report of the Com mittee on the Thames Tunnel Bill.—The Bill was ordered to be engrossed. Mr. CALCRAFT presented a petition against the Gravesend Pier Bill. Mr. MARSHALL presented two petitions from Friendly SoCieties in York, against the Friendly Societies Bill. Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from the Master, Warden, and Society of Apothecaries of London, praying that facilities may be given to the study of anatomy. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from seve ral individuals praying the interference of the House in their favour. The petitioners had rented land under the Archbishop of Canterbury on leases, which were renew able every seven years. The land was subsequently pur chased by the Navy Board, and the petitioners were, on that account, unable to renew their leases, and under these circumstances they prayed the interference of the House. ' " ' Sir G. COCKBURN said, that the petitioners had had the benefit of their leases, and bad lost nothing, because land had so far fallen in value, that it was not worth more than what they had been in the habit of paying for it. The petition was then ordered to be laid on the table. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from a Friendly Society at Sittingbourne, against the Friendly Societies Bill. General DUFF presented a petition from Banff, against the present system of classification in gaols. Sir R. W. VAUGHAN presented a petition from the landowners of Merioneth against the importation of fo reign wool. Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from the Surgeons of Edinburgh, praying that facilities might he afforded to the study of anatomy. Mr. DUNDAS also presented a petition from the Synod of Glasgow, against Catholic Emancipation. Mr. HOBHOUSJ moved fur returns of accounts of the money paid or payable for the management of the public debt for the year 1527. Sir WM. INGLEBY presented a petition from the owners of land at Hurnbleby and its neighbourhood, pray ing that further protection might be afforded to the Agri culturist. Mr. DAVENPORT presented a petition from the Silk Weavers of Manchester, praying for periodical meetings to fix the rate of wages. Mr. LAWLEY presented a petition from the Roman Catholics of Coventry, in favour of the Roman Catholic Mr. FITZGIBBON presented three similar petitions, from the Roman Catholics of three parishes in the county of Limerick. Mr. GRATTAN presented a similar petitio❑ from the parish of New Bridge, in the county of Wicklow. Lord F. SOMERSET presented a petition from the in habitants of Truro, against the Small Notes Bill. Lord WM. PAULETT presented apetition from Owners and Occupiers of Land in Stockton, Durham, praying for the imposition of a duty on Foreign Wool. Mr. THOMPSON opposed the prayer of the petition, and trusted that the resolutions which would have the effect of putting a atop to those petitions, would be brought for ward on Monday next. _ _ . Mr. ROBINSON said if the object of his Majesty's Go vernment was the extension of the manufactures of this country, encouragement ought to be given to those peti tions which complained of a free trade in Wool. The con sequence of acceding to their prayer would be to destroy competition between the Britith and Foreign manufacturer. Mr. V. ST UART presented petitions from several parishes in the county of Waterford, in favour of the Roman Citho- lic Claims. - Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH presented two petitions from 90,000 inhabitants of Lower Canada, complaining of grievances and praying for redress. As the subject of the two Canadas was to be brought that night under the con sideration of the House by the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies, he (Sir J. M.) should reserve his observa tions for that opportunity, lest he might induce a prema ture discussion. NEW SOUTH WALES. Sir J. MACKINTOSH moved that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be pleased to direct that there be laid before the House a copy of the report from Alajor-General M'Quarrie, late Governor of the Colony of New South Wales, to Lord Bathurst, dated Bth of July, 1822 ; and also a copy of the letter, dated October, 1822, from Major-General M'Quarrie to Lord Bathurst, in answer to certain parts of the Report of Commissioner Byng, relative to that Colony. Lord F. GOWER said, that there could be no objection to granting the papers required by the first part of the motion, but with respect to the second part of it, he should certainly reluctantly comply, as the letter of Ort. 1822, contained some passages which might give offence to Mr. Byng, a gentleman at present absent from this country on his 111.kjesty's service, and as he (Llrd F. G.) felt satis fied that the Right Hon. Mover had no wish to hurt the feelings of any gentleman, and that the object of that Right Hon. Gentleman was to obtain such information as would forward his views, he should move that in the latter part of the motion the word " Extracts" should be substituted for the word " Copy," He could assure the Right Hon Gentleman that these 4 xtracts should contain Al the in formation contained in the letter respecting the colony of New South Wales. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said he should not oppose the amendment; as he believed the promise of the Noble Lord that the " L'tracts" would contain every' thing, ne cessary for his (Sir J. M's.) purpose. The motion, as amended, was then agreed to. Mr. WELLS presented a petition from a parish - in Kent, against any further concession to the Roman Catholics. Mr. LEG II KECK presented a similar petition from Lutterworth, county of Leicester. Mr. A. DAWSON presented a petition from Dundalk, against the rate for watching, lighting, and paving towns Corporate in Ireland. Mr. HUME presented a petition sigi:ed by 8000 inha bitants of Upper Canada, Dissenters from the Established Church, complaining of grievances, and praying for redress. Sir J. SHELLY presented a petition from the Con gregation of a Chapel in Sussex against any further con cession to the Catholics. A message was brought from the Lords, requesting a copy of the evidence taken before a Committee of the House of Commons on the Galway Election. Mr. 11. GRATTAN presented a petition from the mil lers, cornfactors, and merchants of Dublin, praying that an Act might be passed to prevent the smuggling of foreign Corn into the Isle of Man. Mr. MOORE spoke in favour of the petition, which was ordered to be printed. SILK TRADE. Mr. Alderma❑ WAITHMAN presented a petition hum the Mayor, Aldermen, Sheriffs, and Corporation, and a number of Individuals interested in the Silk Trade of Nor wich, complaining of the grievances resulting from the re • duced state of wages in that city, and suggesting as a remedy the appointment of a Committee, composed of masters anti workmen, for the purpose of fixing an estab lished rate of wages. As far as the statement s ofgrievances went, he completely concurred in the statement of the petitioners ; but with respect to the remedy which they proposed, it was his decided opinion that uotbing could be more mischievous. In the course of his observations, the Hon. Alderman adverted to the following statement : " Raw, waste, and thrown silk, imported in the last five years, ending January 5, each year : Raw and Waste. Thrown. Total. 1824 2,085,9721bs 346,3141bs 9 ,432,2861b5. 1825 3,510,910 452,469 3,993,379 1826 3,040,621 548,777 3,589,398 1827 1,963,337 ..... ......280,990 2,444,367 1828 3,759,138 450,119 4,209,257 It appears that i❑ 1824-5-6, exceeds, on the average, the years 1827-8. Raw, Waste, and thrown silk, imported from and ex ported to France last year:— Imported. Exported. Excess imported. Raw and waste 1,133,2061b5. 2,88411e5. 1,130,3221b5. Ditto Thrown 443,208 F'oreignl,9l6 441,992 1 576,1141b5. 4,8001b5. 1,572,3141h5. It appears that not an ounce of British thrown was ex ported. Amount of silk manufactured, imported from, and ex ported to France, in the year 1827 : Imported from, 420,000/. ; exported to, 5,120/. ; ex cess of imports, 414,8801. Official amount of the whole of the imports from, and exports to France, in the year 1827 : Imports from France, 1,225,7041. ; Exports in British and Irish produce, and manufactures, 426,195/. ; in foreign and colonial produce, 656,077/. Gross 1,082,2721. It appears that there is an excess in the gross amount of imports of 143,4321., and over the amount of British and Irish produce, and manufactures exported, of '799,509/. It appears also by official accounts, that the whole amount of British manufactured silks, exported to all parts of the world, were—ln 1825, 95,0151. ; 1826, 57,483/. ; 1827, 53,016/. ; 1828, 72,786/. ; 20,000/. only above the former year, and 22,000/. less than 1824. And the amount of manufactured silks exported to all the States of Europe last year, was only 12,193/. ; and to all other parts, 60,5311." Mr. WODEHOUSE had a similar petition to present; and he trusted the House would pay the attention which was due to so important a subject. Mr. BERN AL had also a petition to present to the House on the subject. The present state of things de manded the most serious attention of Parliament. He strongly urged the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject. Mr. FYLER also had petitions of a similar nature to present from Coventry and Spitalfields. He deprecated the pressing of abstract principles of policy in cases in which the general interests of whole cla-ses were concerned. What the petitioners wished for was not any legislative standard or regulation of wages; but that a Committee ahould be farmed of masters and men, to meet from time to time, and arrange what appeared to them the proper rate. If by granting that request the persons now com plaining were pacified, a great step would be gained. Mr. W. SMITH, while sensible of the grievances under which the petitioners laboured, was quite as adverse to the proposed remedy as as the Hon. Alderman by whom the petition was presented. Mr. C. GRANT thought that the present was not a fit opportunity for the discussion of the subject, though he could not refrain from acknowledging that he felt a lively interest in the fate of the petitioners, to whose character and conduct he was willing to bear the tribute of his praise. He thought the House ought to look at the peti tion with essay favourable feeling, though he could not support the doctrines advanced, nor could he altogether agree that the petitioners were in so distressed a condition as some had represented. Since the year 1803 several Committees had sat upon the subject, and they had all agreed upon the impracticability of settling a minimum of wages by any legislative enactment. Every Committee had unitOrmly agreed that this measure was not only im practicable, but that, were it practicable, a recourse to it would be attended with the worst possible consequences. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read various extracts front the Reports of Committees, in order to support his previous assertion , . lie felt convinced that, had Parlia ment formerly fixed, or attempted to fix, a minimum price of the wages of weavers, the cotto❑ manufactures of the country could never have been carried to their present condition. Mr. FYLER explained. Mr. MONCK was of opinion that it was the duty of Parliament to interfere iu all such cases of distress and op pression as that pointed out in the petition. Parliament ought to be studious to keep the people at the highest stan dard of existence, and that could be effected only by high wages. Where wages were high, the revenue might be great, and the people would be more moral and happy.-- Ireland and Scotland were proofs of the truth of his posi tion. Ireland, with a population of between six and seven millions, paid but little more of revenue than Scotland, the population of which was only two millions. This was, because in Ireland wages were reduced to their nummt7n. —lf the manufacturers Of England were to compete with those of the Continent, it would be impossible for the la bourers to get much higher wages than were paid in other countries. But it was desirable that the price of labour should be raised as high as possible without injuring trade, or bringing the goods of this country into a dis advantageous competition with those of other nations.— He was of opinion that the present Corn Bill was a most ruinous measure to the manufacturers ; and he might add, • that nothing could be ruinous to i the manufacturing in pon th e wages o f terests that did not prove equally injurious to the agricul tural classes. He thought the immense weight of the National Debt ought to be made to fall more equ a lly u p on the shoulders of the different classes of the community. i T ab h o e u t r axes tzn at ui p ,o r n es t e l i: e t i f ,, e , l! d, m o o r re upotthe , heavilyie profits of trade. Mr. J. WOOD thought that a Committee ought to be appointed, in order that its report might be used to clear up the delusions under which the manufacturing poor laboured with respect to fixing a minhnum of watts by law. The petition was then brought up, and ordered to lie upon the table, and be printed. Mr. Alderman WAITIIMAN presented a similar peti tion from certain Weavers of Norwich ; and petitions of the same description were presented from the Weavers of Kidderminster, by Mr. Bernal ; from the Silk Weavers of Coventry, by Mr. Fyler ; from the Silk Weavers of Spitalfields, by the same gentleman ; anal from certain Weavers of —, in Norfolk, by Mr. Nlrodehouse. ANATOMICAL DISSECTION. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition from the Surgeon• and Members of the Hunterian Society, pray ing for the Removal of the Impediments in procuring Sub jects for Anatomical Dissection.--Referred to the Select Committee on the said Bill. The Hon. Member then presented a petition from a Friendly Society in Church-street, Bethnal-green„ against the Bill pending for the Regulation of Benefit Societies. CUSTOM AND EXCISE LAWS. Mr. D. W. HARVEY in rising to make the motion of which he had given a previous notice, could not avoid expressing his extreme regret at a circumstance unknown to him until within the last hour—he meant the intention of Ministers to oppose the propositions which he was about to submit to the House. He the more regretted this determination, because he felt it incumbent upon him to present to the House facts and details which might warrant Honourable Members to give their sanction to the Resolutions which he intended to move. He should now state to the House the positions he sought to establish, as the Attorney-General, he believed, would make some remarks upon the resolutions he was about to move. In the first place, he should contend that the re sources of the country were most indiscreetly applied, o' l that costs to an enormous amount were improperly Cl' pended in Excise and Custom-house prosecutions. His next proposition was, that the power invested in certain lao' officers of Government was exercised most oppressively to' wards unintentional offenders, and that the cause of the evil was the absence of persons of established responsibi lity. 'floe effect of this absence was the profit arising frets the arbitrary application of Lows, which, in their mildes t folio, were peculiarly repulsive to the feelings of the people; Within the last five years, the number of informations filed at the instance of the Attorney-General (he did not allude to any individual, as the course of lass , required the in' formations to be tiled in the name of that officer) W ere 1,851. Nine' hundred and forty of these were for the recovery of penalties moiler the Custom Laws, and 91 1 were for the recovery under those of the Excise. Th e object of these 1,851 prosecutions was the recovery of 'O O amounting to 1,038,709/. This sum of one million Jo el thirty-eight thousand seven hundred and nine pounds, ws ° , distributed in equal portions in the two departments 01 Customs and Excise. Many of those prosecutions had te r their object the profits of particular persons ; and of Die ° hundred and eleven prosecutions filed at the instance of the officers of Excise, six hundred and twenty-four were alone successful ; and of nine hundred and forty information ° filed at the instance of the officers of the Customs, only two hundred and eight had been productive of any pee's' niary advantage to the country. He begged the House to understand that the informations load not been defeated 1' verdicts of Juries—it was not by any legal impediment s that they had produced no pecuniary benefit to the Crown' Seven hundred and thirty-two of the informations filed 0 the instance of the officers of the Customs were not ea; cessful, and two hundred and eighty-seven of those file" at the instance of the Excise shared the same fate ; malsiog in all, one thousand and nineteen failures out of 1851 ; or; in other terms, more than one-half of the cases prosecute d produced no benefit whatever to the country, though they yielded an enormous profit to the individual officers wh ° instituted them.—(Hear, hear.) He would now beg leave ( to state to the House what load been the pecuniary result." these informations. Of the 1,038,7091., the aggregate so° sought to be recovered, the total sum received was only cue hundred and thirty-seven thousand eight hundred an d twenty-six pounds, being, as would appear on calculation' little more than one half-crown in the pound.—(Hea rt hear.) So touch for the discretion of those public efficen' e who instituted such fruitless proceedings. The cases e` prosecution, under the Custom Laws, were just as bade' The amount sued for was 538,709/, and the sum rece vered was only 23,5351. Perhaps the House was O S prepared to hear the statement he was about to make wi n ' ,. respect to the amount of the Crown prosecutions in the Exchequer. Of these prosecutions the public had t r pay ° deficiency of 28,414/., whether the suit was gained or lust. The costs of the Excise prosecutions . alone amounted n; 52,270/. ; sea that out of 157,8261., being the total e the Excise and Customs prosecutions, there was a sum of 45,8971. paid to informers, a tribe of wretches wh ° , swarmed and infested all parts of the country. It was o° ' his intention to occupy the House with details which were not capable of proof, and therefore he wished to state that any Hon. Member who wished to inquire into the subjee t would find the whole of the items to which he alluded se'; tooth in. the accounts. Ile would state further, that 0 ` sixty-three causes, in the disposal of which a sum r , 9,577/. was incurred in costs, the cases did not exceed P e ' nalties of 50/. each ; the total sum recovered was 3 1 78 14 and that sum was recovered at the expense of 9,577/. - ' (Hear, hear.) He wished to call the attention of the House to another point connected with this question ; in doing so, he felt relieved from any thing like an indnq genre in conjecture, because he should confine hino e ' to the Returns which had been laid on the table. It s' peered from those Returns, that in 22 causes which we re specified, the expenses in each cause amounted to 172/o" It appeared from this, that no penalty, however e mail: when prosecuted for by information, could be inflict , ' without an expence of 172/. to the country. He bad lie fore him two or three items, to which he begged the at" tention of 'Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, as he was sa l they only existed because they were not known to tloo e who were presumed to be acquainted with the general fora' of that Court; and when they were once known, be S° sure his Majesty's Law Officers would exert themselves is remedying the evil. The first item in the Bill before hi °, was one of every day occurrence—he meant the costs C` the clerks in Court. Now in the Exchequer, there ever , six or eight of these clerks—the offices might be said to t>e sinecures, for one of them, who died only a few days had not visited the office for three or four years, so that if "07 not perfectly a sinecure, it was a duty easily discharged I proxy. There was another singular item, which he 11 sure would surprise many lion. Members. It appeared the for the decision of 22 causes, 307 jurors had been MOO , making 144 jurors fur each cause to be tried. There wes a time when an Exchequer juror received 40s. when a ver.' diet was given for the Crown, but in the event of an ad' verse verdict, he was curtailed in the sum of 20s. He we glad, however, to observe that this relation, though coati' nued until lately, was at present done away with. The Juries thus summoned and sworn were regularly rat although no more than twelve men could be impannelled to try each cause. The lion. and Learned Gentleman over the way might, perhaps, be able to explain this when lie c mine to address the House ; but, to prevent any thing a mistake, he would refer to the Bill. In the case of the Attorney-General against Brazer, there was an item, " Jurymen paid 24/. 3," There were other cases in which Ciere had been sworn and paid twenty Jurymen, another eighteen, another fifteen, another fifteen, another eighteens another thirteen, another sixteen, another nineteen, another seventeen, and so on. This, he conceived was a lo ot serious hardship upon the suitor, and ought to be remed ied " There was yet another point to which he begged to d irect the attention of the House—he alluded to the fees of Ba r ' risters. In all Exchequer cases there was arrayed againstthe defendant an army of lawyers, who had only to loo k t° their own interests, aial secure their fees. It might be that they took these fees front a disinterested wish to discha r g e their duty ; but those who knew the profession must be a ware that there was no stimulus to that eloquence,of which th e Der appeared to be the almost exclusive monopolist, equal to a fee. In several of the cases before him, he found the fee on the Crown side to amount to 52 /. in each case. This he conceived a most oppressive tax upon the suitors , and °tie which called for revision. One bill which he had before hem spewed, that the law officers of the Crown were , gon e ' times, paid not so much for their services as for stay in g a way—that they were paid for many briefs which th a t ne ver read, and many causes which they never attende d ; in a word, that they receiv e d f ees where the Crown Was . party without any l a b our . I n a ll causes , however trivia l i no less than fo ur C ounse l were em pl o y e d o n the part the Crown. I n th e Bill b e f o re him they were stated a ° follows :—" The Attorney-General 10 guineas, the Soli, eitor- General 10 guineas, Mr. Clarke 8 guineas, M r ' Clarke 4/. 6s. Od." Before that period it was usual t° employ five Counsel, but now four were considered suffi cient to persuade a Jury to give a verdict for the Crown' The bill of costs which he had just mentioned was in a case where the briefs of the four Counsel for the Crown eV• tended only to eight sheets; while Mr. Jervis (a gentle' man whose talents must be duly appreciated by all Who knew him), who was engaged on the other side, an whose brief amounted to 19 sheets, received only fv° I guineas. —(Hear, hear. )--Having touched upon two on' terial points —the Clerks' Fees, and the Fees of C 01112 01 ." he wished to say a word or two as to the-Expence of wr i t nesses. When witnesses resided at a distance, they m i r y with great propriety, be examined at the County Mei° where the act had arisen ; but no , this would not do , the witnesses must be brought to London, no matter at what expence. There was one Exchequer case brought up fre r° Newcastle, where the expence of the witnesses alo ne amounted to 386/. ; whereas, if the case had been tried a t house, it would have been at a much less expence. a word or two with respect to the severity of these prcee cutions. He found that in five cases execution had bee' 61. was r.sierclea;:.:bfllyuvvf 151!., oarhttsrehhreee1 issued as follows I —ln the first case, for 106/., where orilY where 31. execution for that deer, s te a ,ho, l ff e e:eci oret recovered d.y t ; h u e ,Laa defendant'sest,ihe. fourth,Houseweaits case p i r al o wo p roo e ek l i tY farot i where the amount receive' 1 r was e leven guineas ; the third was thr a sum of 52 51 " a m oment at the effect of these proceedings. They had u pon their table a petition, in which it was stated, that 8 0 Exchequer process had been issued, and a man's property sold for 12/., and t ha t i the ; He now cam e to another point—he meant the necessity °I appointing Emeion,iitconsotraocuotioro'svberilltahmesoeunptedroctoeedlinn' ,giu4o:de Ile wa s aware t h ey wou ld b e t o ld th at no procee ding co be filed by the Solicitor of the Exchequer, until the whol' question load been laid before the Board of Excise or Ca r r toms, and that all proceedings must he instituted u nder their direction, and proceeded in under their superrisia!: Now this proved one of two things—either that there so; a culpable negligence on the part of the Commissioners , f ° ,. else the powers vested in them were insufficient, ! °,, w o uld any one venture to assert that an efficient supervi s t e i was exercised in Exchequer prosecutions at prolee° Would any one venture to assert that the solicitor who S Ve 4 u nsuccessful in half the cases he undertook, had a righ t t s i - , in a private case to turn upon his client, and demand P e expences for a case of his own instituting. He had bef o c; him a case of peculiar severity ; it was that of C. 1 10 8 , 15. Bryant, who commanded a vessel in the Surinam traa`