The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-03 00:00:00

add no at Oa t Kt' tbs t t hose rbich it Actor. we of of o b' the ac- set lIP un, Oita as Weil noceo!• (Ind bit . Tha r )tiblicw! Ist yea r , f o ubttux n wore e$ very MiSc i '• Still rere nut inpiate‘: • aS 1114(1 6 it 078 1 rAg:, rhatev e ,: r eatlill the evil tieSti On. ;al 816"° ►u ii ow r col'6i: 'h opinion of Miiiieters) re, the • e 4i ion .of the country. One Noble Lord, on l l i e °Pposit e s id e , i n a s p eec h w hich had done ~:i ' s great honour, had admitted the disaffection A t erg in the country grew out of its distress. eie''ther Noble Lord, in bringing forward the new 1 4 4 " ires, had taken a view not only of what had p • a n sPired in this country, but also of what had : ir sed in others. If he were to indidge the Noble following him through this view, he ssty that he could see nothing but an over -4:.1. of the subjects of other countries with ti ot o , ing armies llisproportioned to their popola tot' hot still more to their means, to establish a le rt of Inquisition against their liberties at The conduct of the Noble Lord seemed (I Co rroborate The report that was abroad, that i l ielt e measures were adoeted with such a view, eotieert with the foreign Poteetates, but this i "'our he had no doeht was as gross a calumny t : '"lil b e uttered. Inquiry into the lite pro tlings w as actually necessary, and he was re that one had been called for by his Noble e e le ,n' l , the Member for Northampton ; and he lest hardly yet believe that the House, in re te7l")g it, meant to content itself with the brief .41 ed and compiled by the Secretary of State to n , lse lfr against whom the very situation of the tntry furnished a prima facie ground of Recta 4e.'". He charged the Government, and as God list his judge, it was without either envy or me te' With having ex asperated the people when t he y (flight have soothed them, and wi•li having, I:: t heir misconduct, aggravated evils which they e t :ght have lessened. With these feelings he : 1 ( 1 not consent to put more soldiers at the dis- e e . 41 of Government, or to give new measures of 1 1 0 . iettoti coercion. He called upon the (l ose t o pause before they did this, and he called 111 : 8 "4 th em i n t h e conv i c ti on that the plans now if"e'l to would not produce the desired effect. a 12 ,000 additional soldiers were given now, ;; i i (1 00 would shortly be wanted, and the miser bll' remeies of the right of petiiinning, about to e left to the merry of churchwardens, would be itil Ottleted. When the day should arrive that lan ee,4e like this should be called tor, and at rive it "14,1 1"1 , it the same course were persileed in, it '''sid then be stool that the glory of the greatest to,i ` l happiest nation of the earth had passed its 'weridian 4 1 .eird LASCELLES.--.AS lie had been referred to Iv 4 ilihing the existing disaffection to distress, sited to explainl had • Iformer wow reSit( on a ter e 'hog. After the last prorogetioo Parlia r"t, tie stated mischievous men to have gone u lt in the conetre, to infleme the minds of the : 4 '!oreta l "rie ex is nisi rt ss had produced • 4 t effect on their minds, that the machinations , Ote diSaff,cted were more successful than they ttititt friiet \%itte have been. This he believed, Kil t had never said that the whole of the d.sal K e ""tion arose from dist nibs. Mr, DAv F. 1.0.0 T would support the measures "ttore the House, because he thought there Dever *t c ." a period when House was Wore impera -40ly ca ll e d upttu to a dopt strong niensto es to t"' dow n the diseffei lion which existed, and 1 : 1 "eii, not, checked time, would destroy the "Oetl e d people themseiees, and subsequently the "el e of the country Advaw age hart been taken "f ; the distress it hick revelled to- ittflione the, , a itt ~ of the poor; het it was not in the districts distress most prevailed that the people had i i " 1 ,11 clamorous. He reprobated the setinious and '"Pbeieoes publications which had lively issued t rout th e p ress , and celled upon the House, by vwtitigi them down, to defend the peace, good aell religion, of the country. Mr. F ezeKettee r Was decidedly of opinion that " ," 114 g mLisures were necessary,-•o put down dis 'llocl-ion. He- however thought, it the danger here but local, the remedy would be the more ' , Orient if made local also. He could wish the to go on that principle, with a provision for t4 teneling the opt ration of it to other districts, t hould this he necessary. , Mr. CHONITTOII and Mr. Peat. rose together. Peet gave way. Mr. CeolueTow merely rose for the purpose of lite:leafing the North Riding of Yorkshire. He. )I ,: l it'% . ed there were no grounds for' charging that dart of the minty with disaffection. He had never `"aril of se ditious practices being carried on there. Mr, PI E L rose to give his • opinion on one or ; , tvi () blip gets, which had been so often discussed ` ll that House, that he should tear to offend by the mere repetition, if he did not feel it of some blortance thes he should speak on them, having Lett prevented from doing so by indisposition, t ‘litell had kept him from the House sin=ce the t/i ght oat which it first met, The circumstances • ; 1 1 whi ch lie wou ld o ff er a f ew o b serva ti ons , were com i ected with the meeting at Winchester. : . 'e was an xious to speak on this silbjece, r as he • peculiatly conntcsed with. Lancashire; but hotout to it by many lies, there was no 41"iteg in his cennexioo with it that could [mike t 'nli give other than an impartial Opinion, for I L! bed no relation or person et all near to . t ,'" 111 among the Magistrates of Manchester. iont the means he had of knowing what their l eo uduct had been, with the convict ion he ft rid of the motives wider which they had acted, stir! bearing in mind the danger to which the town t ia`t (seen exposes, and the calamities with which It (lad b een assa il e d, h e should abandon his duty jt he did not offer them the compensation (a Very fit s one , but the only one he could o ff er) of I " ,t !* te st i mon y i n t h e i r favour,--a testimony alike fi ts ioterested and siticere. Any man who had `lreted his opinion on the conduct of the Man- Magistrates, from the statements 4if what t '!'Y did on the 16th of August, took a very ma `'‘v vie w et the question, and incapacitated him t'f from harming a correct judgment on the " e e ,e. 5 of the case. Not only were the proceed -a -I g' , of th a t day, nor those of mouths preceding it, ; I : 4,, fli c i elit to give a correct view of the merits of 111,e ease, but it was necessary that Getitlemen have a knowledge of what had taken place • ititin t h e l ast f ew years , an d o f t h e state. of so ciety iii that part of the country, to enable them l ; . .l e Of the measures which they had taken for 11: ► e preservation ti t property on that day, and of and he would say it, of the success, of exertions. It was perfectly true that the I l 4 rties slid meet avowedly for the purpose of pefi 441'ing Varliameut. It was true that that was the g,tll) and the pi de vtrorts by, the preparations in ieuded to stimulate the naultitude to other p poses . It was perfectly - trite' that - they came into Manchester with a b au d pt a ying " God save the King," and carrying banners in scribed " Order," and " Peace to All." It was also perfectly true that the chief Demagogue ca ll e d upon them to observe order, and avoid ail impropriety of conduct ; but would any matt say that such specious pretences ought to have lulled the Magistrates into security, and induced them to give up the measures which they had pre viously adopted to preserve the peace during the meeting ? He wished the House to look at •the situation of the Magistrates. Fortner meetings, called for a purpose, had taken phice there. These were recorded, anti the record was doubt less in the hands of the Magistrates. lie alluded to a document contained in the Report of the Secret Committee of time House of Lords. That Report would show the sentiments entertaiued of these meetings by that Committee, composed of persons as respectable as could he named to con duct any intpiry. Part of this he would read, hot he most first state that iu 1817, two meetings rook place to petition for a Reform in At the first of these Meetings, which was attended by about 10,000 pto,on., the monstrous resolution was adopted of dividing th , msetvcs into tens, and petitioning the Iltioce Regent by tens. The se cond meeting was of a still more alarming nature. It was such as no man could cootemplate without apprehending a public commotion, or without perceiving that all moral feeling was extirpated in those who concurred in the plans connected wiili it. The object of it was thus descrioad " It was on the night of the 30th of March, that a general insurrection ►ras intended to take place. The Magistrates were to be seized, the pcisoners in the jails liberated, and the soldiers overpowered in their quarters, or premises were to he fired at some distance from theta, with a vie•v of drawing them thither, while the insurgents took possession or their barracks and secured the magazine and their arms. Happily this project was discovered a few days before, and this eir cutnst ance served materially to check the conspi- I With such a document hetore them, would the Magistrates have been justified in not taking measures to guard against wattage ? Sup, pose they had not done this, what a case would then have been made out against them.. If they had not acted as they did, with what po.‘ertol e l,,goenee would they not have been attacked as the agents and abettors of the mob, whose out rages (bey had failed to prevent. Now they heard many complaints against Magistrates from those who tumid it easy to blame, whatever might be done. He, for his own part, not only their conduct justified, but. believed it impossible for any man to lay down a better plan than that on elfish they hail acted. Some said the meeting, it I, ft to itstit, would have dis persed peaceably. No man could more sincerely deplore the loss of lives which h.ad occurred at Manchester than he did; but at the comparative calamity,—compating what had occulted u Is is what might hate °relit red—lie did not regret the interference of the Magoitrates. But some said, why not zdey nnertere to prevent the Meeting altogether? He could ~,kb to ask how they would advise that this shimld he done Here were per sons march 11,4 o!li Rochdale and other places in Tao 'ies of 4 of 500 si tong How were the -Magi strates to pr vent the meeting From taking place ? Were they to send two or tin ee constables to ex postulate with the advancing Reformers, to advise them to keep away ? Would not such a step have been to make the civil power „look quite ridiculous ? Would they then have sent a military force to interfere if the civil power were not at tended to ? This they could do. But suppose such an expedient had been ventured on ; and suppose a detachment ef the military to have been overwhelmed by a body of Reformers! %Vhat would have been the moral effect of this ? He would say, that the consequences of such a colli sion must have been fatal. He was bound to say, that Ministers were not only not to blame for giving the thanks of the Prince Regent to the Manches ter Magistrates, but that in this instance, their conduct was most praiseworthy.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—Had they acted differently, they would have proved 'themselves most unfit for their situations, in times like the present. But then it was said, this was done on he Magistrates' own report. He, in reply to this, would ask, if it was not to he assumed that he who was qualified to exercise the (unctions. of a Magistrate, might be depen , ted oil fora faithful report of the proceed ings of that day. Had not the thanks of that House been often given to a General on his own statement of an action ? What would have been thought, it, when the Duke of %Vellington wrote that he had defeated the enemy, Ministers had re plied to him—" We have reason to think that Marshal Victor will give a different .report on this subject to his Government, and that certain Gen tlemen of the Opposition will find fault with your proceedings; and so till these things are cleared up, we cars come to no decision in this business, and the whole of your statement must be sus pected )" Could tiny man suppose that under such a system we could ever hope fur Ge nerals like the Duke of %Irellington, or for Magistrates who would manfully do their du ty ? He would ask those who approve of our general system of police, if they were nut tak ing a course that was extremely well calculated to augment the number Of stipendiary Magistrates, by deelaiming . as• they did against those whose services were voluntarily and gratuitously given. No- lessou was more distinctly traced in letters of blood, than that which should warn Ministers from fearing to commend those who at a time like the present had resolutely performed their duty. It would be fatal to the best.. interests of the coun try, if Government, from . e dread of popular' clamour, shrunk from giving thanks where they were due. From The speech of his Honourable and Learned Frieinl M'Donald), he could hardly believe that he meant to vote against_ the measure now before the House. He bad said that 12,000 men had been called for, but that, • 24,000 would be necessary ; and, upon the whole, he had left a sort of an impression on his mind, that he thought the measures called for were hardly sufficient to 'meet. the danger.—No wan was more• 81140111 than It'unsel( for the preservation of papillae rights, bet no oat that seers be mane of them could be better calculated to bring them into ridicule and contempt, than that to which they had lately..been prostituted. The measures now called .for were justified by the letters re ceived from the Earl of Derby, Earl Fitzwilliam, and the Duke of Hamilton. Every men must find in the communications of those Noblemen sufficient grounds to think that the danger of the country was extreme.—(Hear, bear, hear !)—lt appeared from the letter of Lord Fitawilliam, that 17 or IS Resolutions had. been adopted at the Hunslet Moor Meeting. Among these was one stating the National Debt of the country, which God knows was large enough without such additions, to amount to one hundred thousaed millions.-a-(HearS hear, hear !)—This was the way in which the minds of the ignorant were en lightened by itinerant orators. The Resolution which tollowed was atill more tidieulons, but also more dangerons. it stated the system of Saving Banks to be a gross insult on . .the common sense and real understanding of the people, and to have been devised by the lalanse for the purpose. He wool(' defy any mail who should apply his whole life to the subject to guess what those men pretended to think ment had in. contemplation, for the purpose of enabling the Bank of England to pay the fractional pars of the dividends,—(Hear, hear, hear !)-- The Resolutions then concluded by declaring, that as soon as an eligible person should he found willing to accept the representation of Leeds, ano ther Meeting should he called to confer that repre sentadou upon him ! He should ask the House whether this was not a most gross abuse of the right of meeting I But let it not be supposed that ells evil stopped Oleic. Let the House hear what Lord Fitzwilitam said respecting the itinerant demagogues. He stated that be had not vet seen the Resolutions adopted at the Floosie! Moor Meetiug, because the Managers at that Meeting had not diessed them up to their own liking tor piloting, for they did nor scruple to mis-state and misrepresent the actual Resolutions which had been passed. Did not every one see that the danger to popular rights did not proceed from the coercive measures oposed, but trona the ails of !hose men who thus perverted their use ? When lie considered all the perils resulting from such iondoct, he could not conceal the maanitude ut his apprehensions. Gentlemen. might talk of an intention to invade certain rialvs, hut he would ask them whether the Country did not possess other rights than those Which they cooceived to be threatened ? (Hear, hear, hear !)—Let them compare those which Were tse be invaded with those w hick it was intended by that very invasion to preserve— (Hear, hear, hear !)-11e should like to take 'a total stranger, and atter he had seen how our Constitution insured to the - people peace, liberty of opinion and of speech, anti the esjoyment of free rights, to place him on any spoi he pleased near Manchester, or in the disturbed districts, and bin ask him what he thought of the practical effect of those rights, anti whether he tbotight that the British Constitution answersd all the purposes for which it had been established ?—(hear !) Let the case of Murray be examined, a loyal and peaceable man, who, on leaving Manchester and moving on the. King's high raid, found a bot!y of 1,500 men at drill. They•invited him to join them, and-heSreimed. They them chose to take him for a spy, ,pursued him, and compelled Hun to t f,9 on his knees and forswear his allegiance to his Sovereign as the price of his life;--(Hear, hear, hear !)—hiit not of personal protection, for he was treated and wounded iu tile most atrocious manner.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—What was the melancholy appeal that he, a loyal subject, guilty of no offence, made to them ; A For God's sake, treat me as an enemy would if I was their pri soner."—(Hear, hear !)—Woold any man call that the liberty of the subject ?—(Hear, hear !)—lt was one of the objects of the Constitution to guard 'that libeirty, and it it could not guard it effectual ly, it must be made to do so.—(Bear, hear !) Let the House look at Lord Derby's letters ; and see what facts he stated respecting the degree of intimidation which prevailetl. He could not melt den his Lordship's name without expressing his strong approbation of the manner in which he • (Lord Derby), opposed as he was in political opinion, to his Majesty's Ministers, had concili ated the feelings of every loyal man iu his county. —(Hear, hear, hear !)—His Lordship first stated, that troops were insufficient, and that it was ne cessary to foto) orated associations. He wrote to the Secretary of State, and proposed a plan to that effect. But saute time past he held corn munications with the local authorities, and what was the result ? That io a third letter he stated be had much difficulty its finding a sufficient !somber of officers. He had, however, procur a et) enough for one battalion, but it was impose sible to provide any men—(Hear, hear, hear !) Should such a state of things he allowed to con thole, when the disaffected were regularly trained anti (billed, and the loyal so intimidaied as not to dare to come forward ?—(Hear, hear!)—The Duke of Hamilton and Brandon .stated that he had no "doubt of the loyalty of the people in his comity, but that he loom, it impossible to indtice any of thens to sign their names to p•declara.ion that they were reaq to come forward in defence of the public peace, in consequence of the dation tinder which they laboured. Was this li berty? Let. the House consider the inevitable con sequences of such intimidation. He did not speak of the first class of society, who had the .means of acting in a manner independent of the times. But what was the condition of people of a isiore neo a iterate rank and tortoise With what difficia ties,and temptations were they not surrounded, if the House should not afford them prOtec tion? Wotild Parliament stand on human firmness and virtue to stem the torrent ?—(lltar, hear !) As a seditious demagogoes had perverted the right of meeting and petitioning, and the freedom of speech, to the wont purposes; it became the House - tOstake-case a that the -_greatest -blessing which could .be bestowed on the people, should not be converted into the greatest of 'evils.— (Hear, hear, hear !)—Feeling the necessity of the measurei- - --feeling that if it was limited to Weal dis tricts, it :might transfer the seat of the disorders into othen,sand wishing to guard those that were loyal and peaceable, against the introduction .... • ... of such practites and c:lnmities, tie conecive(t that the House had only a ct.oice between two evils--the farther resiriction of sortie valuable prim vileges, or general anarchy and confusion, and the communication of the curses un d er which the manufacturing districts laboured. to those that were agricultural and commercial —(Hear Mr. SMYTH (of Canih• idgc) admicted the exist• ence of considerahle . danger, and should assent to any moderate measure for its repression. But he considered the remedy now proposed ten thou• sand times worse than the evils which it was In tended to remote. He concluded by recommend lug a system of conciliation, without which the evils wi►►ch all must deplore and wish to repress, would go on increasing froth day to day . _ Mr. ABEriceoktßre declared that he Was one of those who thought it necessary that something should he done, but cone, ived that it o,,ght not to he either general or permanent .—(llear, bear, hear !)—He contended that all theargeturnts used by the Hon. Member for the University of Ox. Lord (Mr. Peel) established the tact that the dis °rails were heed, and that , he measures adopted should bear the saint character. It. would be Ilse most monstrous injustice, especially consider. Mg the precipitation with which the Bills were introduced and pressed, to place the whole coun try under permanent restraints and disabilities, on account of a few counties. Nothing was wore unwise and unjust than to legisla e under the pressure of a temporary alarm.-.!(Hear, hear !)--- He then described the ground. on wtiiell he ad. twitted the existence ot great danger, and of the necessity of me sires of repression. He should, however, object to going iwo a Com4ti tee ' , it 'he present, it some limit were not affixed to i,s dura. tion.—(Hear, bear !) Lord A. HAMILTON. whO spoke in so low a tone as to lie scarcely audible in toe Gallery, was understood to object to the permanency of the measure proposed, but to express ots ihtt• t on to give it his sopport on account of the ocolar de monstration which he had nail of its necessity. .. (IJear, hear, hear 1) MI. COKE ( o f Norfolk) kvas unwilling to in crease the power Of Lends Li, torment, and con). plained of the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Norfolk, who had lefused to pot some Gentlemen oft the Commission of the Peace. He (Mr. C.) had, however, applied to the Lorti Chancellor, by whom they had intinediately and politely been put ou the Commission. He be lieved Ministers had encouraged all the Meetings that had taken place, in order to be able the more easily to carry the present measures. It Gentlemen could not see this they could see not ping.—(Hear ! and laughter ) Lot d FoLsseoNe regretted that his Noble Friend, and his Hon. and Learned Friend below, should seem disposed to vote for the Bill, its the hope that the provision that tended io make it permanent might he altered in the Committee.— How could they entertain such a hope after what had fallen front the Solicitor-General and the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, who had both expressed their conviction that it sitas neces sat 7 to give permanency to the measure I He thought its duration ought to be limited, and its operation to be [wide local. Ile therefore thought a temporary measure, even for three ,months, should be tried, and time given for in ves'igation. A Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) had said, it was better that the blood which was shed at Manchester, on the 16th, should be lied, than that the meeting should meet'and se parate quietly. How strange must that disease lv, which io the view of a Statesman, as the Right Honourable Gentleman was, should reViee such a remedy as this ? Its his opiniOn, die avowal of the Right Honourable Gentleman, .consbinel with Mr. Hay's letter, thowed that the object of Government was to produce the result which had taken place, and that if they bad wished it, they could have prevented the meeting of the 16th as they did that of the 9th. But such was not their purpose; for a gentleman that went down in the Manchester mail on the 13th, stated at Buxton that the orators were to be seized at the meeting by orders from the Secret. tary of State. He was convinced that by passing these Bills, they would be pulling down the main pillars of the Constitution, and he could not as. sent to them, though to put an end to the state of anarchy described at once, he was willing to agree to even stronger local and temporary mea sures. Bttt the Bill would involve the innocent with the guilty, and the quiet with the unquiet, and therefore he could not give his vote for its second reading. Mr. PEEL, in explanation, said, that however mistaken by the Noble Lord, lie thought he had qualified his expressions respecting the meeting at Manchester sufficiently to guard himself from the suspiciou of not feeling as deeply as any Hon. Gentleman could for the calaniny of that day. lie never under-rated the evil, and the Only reason why he thought it better than if; it had taken another course,. was that then another meeting would, have taken place, and a collision between the military a nd the people, io which much more blond would have been sited. He was anxious to state that such was his sense of the transaction, lest by his expressions being taken in another way, 1 he might be misrepresented as ungenerous and in human—(Hear, hear I) FOLKhTON dlsc la imed the idea of wish. *tog to ifiii)ote any such motives to the Hight lion. Geoileinao, and was glad he had given hint an opporto, ify of expkii.ing hintseit more distinctly. WILNIOT supported the Bill at eousiderable length., as calculated not to eradicate but to limit popular rigiit in a ''ay to promote the true li betties of the suh,lect. He ridiculed the presump ti.m of the Nutdc Lord (lolkstone), that so col.. rupt a comblhation of Lords Lieutenant, Sheriffs, and Gland Juries, as lie had surposed could exist to d,!eat the wishes of the people. A great con• spiracy existed against the safety of the State, and it was absolutely necessary to provide means for its detest. he Honourable Memb,:r, after taking a view of the dangerous treasons of local, and of the causes which rendered the multi tude so prone to be deluded, proceeded to animad. vent on the baseness and infamy of their leaders. They Vr ere meu who came under the description 01 those defined by Burke, against whom quiet times was s sentence of obscurity ; and that one of LLCM who bad done wore mischief than all :he