The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-06 00:00:00

XVENING EDITION number of our frigates should have been increased. A neighbouring c-untry ha i now nineteen frigates build ing, tad s.zinea in dock, making a total ot thirty-five. lie [.,ought, Lao, that we should have trade a grea`er use ot the two power of steam. We had now but six steamers, w hile, France had thirty-three. Admiael ADAM observed, that we could tv(11 dis pense pith an increased number of frigates, so long as we wv ore vvell supplied with seventy-fours, which were much more efficient in battle. With regard to steamers, the British Government had been yearly increasing them, as much as was consistent with a proper cconomy. Seven vessels had been built this year, and six more wer.: on the stocks, and the Government were ent2ring into contracts for engines for six or seven large steamers, and tbo..ilon. Officer might be certain that the subject would not be lost sight of. Captain PECHELL said that in the last war they bad been left a legacy of forty sail of the lire, which might very properly be denominated the forty thieves. His object in replying to the Hon. Gentleman, was with respect to the steam-vessels. Now it was noto rious that the French Minister had complained in the Chamber of Deputies that none of the French vessels were to be compared with those of this country. Fur any one therefore to stand up and say this country was deficient in vessels, showed him that he had overlooked whet bad taken place at Acre, where the vessels had done tho grc atest service. Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished for explanation upon one item in the present vote. When he had the honour of being at the Admiralty, the best relations existed between this country and the United Stater, bat it had always been considered necessary to adopt such a courso as would keep up the su perior character of this country. Now, he saw in this vote an outlay of 20,000/. for the pur i-ose of stetrn vessels for Canada. Now, he wished ta know for what purpose that charge was made, and whether any change was contemplated at the Admiralty different to that which was adopted by him to keep up the naval spirit of the country. Mr. M. O'FEItRALL said there was no change contemplated in the policy to which the light Hon. Baronet had referred. It was not intended that the steamers should be armed ; all that was intznded was to transport troops. Mr. HUME thought that preparations of this de toription excited suspicion. At the present time it was not necessary to lay out such a sum. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the veiscli were intended chiefly to operate on Lake Ontario. Sir J. GRAHAM said that although our amicable r*dations with the United States should be maintained, it was not unimportant to consider that a military de fence was the best that could be adopted. That was the substance of the resolutions adopted by the Go vernment of which he was a member. Mr. WOOD said the House would remember that on one occasion, at Lake Erie, there was great diffi culty in conveying troops from one place to another. Lake Ontario belonged chiefly to this country, but on Lake Erie, where the steam-boats were principally American, the greatest difficulty was experienced. Sir J. GRAHAM said that if the steamers were intended merely to transfer troops, it was quite consis tent with his view. If they were proposed with a view to naval superiority, he objected to the scheme. Lard J. RUSSELL said they were intended to as sist in the coiliaary defence. Sir DE LACY EVANS deprecated the practice of rofierring 8e what any former Government might have decided with regard to the best course to be adopted rot the defence of Canada in any future war. Mr. HUME said it appeared to him very extraordi nary beat three years after the insurrectionary move ment was at an end there should be this proposal to in crease the expenditure. The money of the country was tteelessly expended by keeping the navy in a con dition for war when the country was i❑ a state of peace. His first objection was to the number of men, namely, 43,000 in a time of peace, for the naval establishment, when 14 % 000 was considered rufficient in the time of Mr : Prtt. He was sorry to see this extravagance. The vote was then agrecd to. 2543,760/. were voted for naval yards. A vote of 24,601/. for tnedicines and medical stores was agreed to. t_ 2 404 80.7 1( 88 1 b / e . were utl % , .a t te t d o for miscellaneous naval services. „ . ~.., a S uitos ir T. C es oC on H t, I la t t A s N m E ali b c e op gged to call the attention of the Committee to the importance of altering the times 4 which steam-vessels started from that country to 4,naorica, from once a fortnight to once a week. He understood that each of these vessels took out 1,0001. worth of letters, and if the times of starting were ac celerated the postage-duty would be considerably in creased. He unsiarstood that attempts were making to get up a line of packets from Havre to the United States, and if the Government did not take care the great bulk of the trade and correspondence of the country would be taken out of their hands. Mr, HUME hoped the time would shortly arrive whoa the postage of letters would no longer he con aidered a source of revenue. After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN and Mr. C. WOOD, 1111-. THORNELY said he thought the Govern ment had adapted great improvements with respect to the Cove-caveat packets to North America. He wished to repeat a question that had been put by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, namely, whether the Govern ment proposed to adopt electro-telegraphic communi cation between London and Portsmouth. Mr. M. O'FERRALL said the Admiralty had directed their attention to the subject, but had not yet determined upo❑ it. The rote was then agreed to. On the vote for 728,628/. for half-pay of o ffi cers being put, Captain PECHELL said ho wished to call the at tention of the Government to the claims of Pursers. He thought Pursers, who had served as Admirals' Clerks, should be entitled to a higher rate of pay. He hoped that something would be done to provide better for men who served in confidential situations as secre taries to Admirals, and as pursers, and there was now a gentleman who bad served as purser for 19 years, and as iecretary to Admiral Codtingten for sight years, and who was thrown, after those 27 years of confiden tial service upon his half-pay of ss. a day as purser. Admiral ADAMS said that the regulations now in force had beau adopted, i❑ accordance with the Report of fati Commisisioaers of Naval and Military Inquiry, and hs saw no reason for so soon disturbing them. In reply to an observation from Sir H. HARDINGE Mr. C. WOOD said, that two years ego Capta n N 4V-ex (low fir C. Napier), was re-instated, and ,Plavold R.POR the full pension to which his previous rank ectis.44 Sit H. 1 / 4 -4DINGE hoped, that as this was the case, 4001. alaar would stand opposite to Sir C. Na pier's yoga in the pension list instead of 20-0/. Admiral ADAM said that no man had a higher , esteem thin be bad for Sir Charles Napier, but no in creosote his pensio❑ could be made out of the aecurnu- Lied land until after the death of Admiral Cockburn, an elect arllich be hope I was very remote.—( Hear.) B. r H• HARDINGE thought that rewards for me rituricas services were distributed in the army upo❑ much i more equitable principles than i❑ the navy. N r. C. WOOD said that, with respect to half-pay, lotb " 4 "e'legs were en the same footing. It was a rule in both that no o ffi cer should receive half-pay together with any ei•il emolument. Sir J. DU KE wished to know whether it was intended that a monument should be erected to the late Sir Syd ney Stale). Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to an,wo: 'a thu affirmative. Sir J. DUKE gave notice that, in that case, ho aboald Wove., an a future occasion, that a monument be Also erected to Lord Exmouth, who had eo-operated with Sir Sydney Smith. The vote was then agreed to. The following votes were afterwards passed e 181,7891. for civil pensions wid allowances. d 190,957/. for the freight of ships awl 76"e721. for the conveyance of cow? cis. The House then resumed. ARMY ESTIMATES. ktr. MACAULAY then rose to move the Arm h i e Fts'timstes for the year. The Hon. Gentleman said subject would do so as clearly and concisely as the . would allow. The estimates for the last year had nirrotauted to the sum of 6,163,000/. At the latter end of the. Session, however, he felt it his duty to call ftritta additional sum of 22,0004, for the purpose of c tr- lyicrg iato effect the recommendations of the Milir iry 4knamissioo, so that •the whole estimates for the year exneuatel to 6,185,000/. The estimate which he was stliefut to present for the present year would amount to tk,13t3,0Q0/., showing a decrease of 471001. The whole force borne in the estimate of last year amoun ted to 121,112 men. The whole force in the estimate of the present year was 1 0 1,191 men, showing an increase of only nine men. Of these 29,070 were deployed in India. It would Isejoerceived that th er e was a slight increase in the regifflentil charges throughout almost every department in the service. The ordinary regimental charges of cavalry wh;ch amounted to 17,001/. last year, amounted to 17,0 0 8/. this year. The ordinary regimental charges of batta lions of infantry amounted, last year, to 26,414/., and those charges would amount this year to 2 6,4781. The increase in the cavalry expenses arose from the circum stance tits§ th 9 adjutants had received the advantages recommended by the Naval and Military Commission, and which was due to that very valuable class of offi cers. llis incresse in the infantry expenses had arisen partly flora the same cause, and partly from the fact that 1) . laid thought proper to make some addition t .s. ,,s llll lPmattagast alloosanoes of captains of depot corn- P '"..e_e.:- lee n"lnatead. It had been deemed expedient that gutPtnaaels dmould be kept up as nearly as pos /6141° INO talt7highe t ' hadlseaw se od in tt point, and he at wibkile e military history of the country e • , ee i e 4topt‘eibi , the lumber o f e fr ee • e bad so . nearly ... e Ol4 . u the numberrated tiv s "en: flheoef ,) T he eons in the estimates . lane 4. ''' the depot compe -that policy had 1 it, ` - -cee• .---e... ~ i . :0 , • _ t.. captains for depot g a t 'llk:swat - Ice which ‘...... had been formerly allotted to them. It had, therefore., been thought proper to make such a❑ addition to the contingent allowances as mig,ht enable them to meet their increased expences. 'lle consequence was that there was a small increase in almost every battalion in our service. The next charge to which he w:.hed to call the attention of the House was in the item entitled tie proportion of men wanted to be completed. Last year the sum amounted to 40,000/., and in the present year it would only amount to 20,0001. The reason was that the number of effectives this year approached more nearly to the establishment than on any former oc casion ; and he had some doubt whether be might not have made a further reduction on that head. He would next come to the good conduct pay, on which he was sure every one would be glad to know there was an in crease. The fact was, however, that that system for which the service was indebted to the Noble Lord who preceded him (Mr. Macaulay), would not be fully developed until the year 1843, as it would not come sooner into full effect. Every soldier who had enlisted since 1836 was entitled for the present to have an op tion between pay and the good conduct pay. Tho barge last year for the good conduct pay amounted to car 8,000/., and it was this year 9,312/., showing an increase of more than 1,300/. Under the head of fo raging, and the money allowances and cantingent ex penses of regimental officers abrcad, there was a con siderable increase. The item amounted last year to 045.000/., and it would be raised this year to 270,000/. He should observe, that the estimates which he was presenting for the year which elapsed, between the 31st of March, 1841, and the 31st of March, 180., were founded on the actual expenditure of tl e year which had elapsed, between the 31st of March, 1839, and the 31st of March, 1840. During that year the expendi ture had been considerably increased, particularly in Canada, in Nova Scotia, in the Australian Colonies, and the Cape of Good Hope. That increase had been caused in Canada and Nova Scotia by a considerable augmentation of forces. In Australia and the Cope of Good Hope it had originated in a great rise in pro-i -sions. In Australia prices were such as could only be produced by a scarcity. It had, therefore, been neces sary to incur additional expenses in these possessions ; but the House would observe with pleasure that there had been a reduction under the aced of Jamaica. They would learn with still greater pleasure, that the reduction arose from a restoration of good feeling, which had induced that Colony to pay the expenses of its Go vernment from its own resources.—(Hear, hear.) Last year he had been obliged to defray his expenses out of the Army Estimates of this country. The next charge to which he wished to called the attention of Parlia ment arose from an innovation, but an innovation Mitch he was incline] to consider very valuable—it was the charge for Savings Banks. In all the cases which had come under the Authorities at the War-office, it ap peared that the formation of these banks had been at tended with the most beneficial effects. Tho system had been introduced by his Noble Friend the late Secretary at War, who on that, as on every other subject, had shown himself a friend to the service. He had to pro pose a vote of 500/. for the interest on deposits` In this country such a system would not henceforward be much required, for there were everywhere banks established of which soldiers could avail themselves as well as any other class. Neither would they be required for such Colonies as Australia, where the system of Savings' Banks was also fully established, and where the interest on money was very high. But these banks would be found a most valuable resource for that part of our army who were scattered over different distant possessions, whore similar institutions did not exist, and in which the soldiers would be induced, without them, to squander their money in frivolous pursuits. They could now lay up their money in those countries in a manner useful to themselves and beneficial to the service. Under the head of regimental contingencies there was no increase, but rather a slight decrease. In the charge for the transport of regiments, in the United Kingdom, there was an increase of 4,000/. or 5,000/., which was almost entirely to bo attribut d to the use of railways on such occasions ; and he was sure that the increase would not be regretted, as it was accompanied with a saving of time which in military movements was more than an equivalent for a saving of money. The next charge which presented any novelty was for a sum of 395/, to the Westminster Ophthalmic Hospital. That sum would not be annually required. It was intended that the annual grant should be only 50/., which would be allowed for rent ; and the sum now required would be for arrears under that head since the Ist of July, 1833. The Hospital had been found to be a most useful insti tution, as it stood on ground which belonged to the Crown, the officers wished that a grant of it might be made to the members of the service. The Government thought it advisable not to accede to that request, but they offered a yearly grant of 50/. as an equivalent. In the recruiting department there was a diminution in the present estimates. The charge under that head amounted to 119,000/. ; and it would this year amount only to 103,000/. The reasons for the reduction wore that the army had been largely recruited list year, and that there was an omission of 8,1371. glace last year, • for the maintenance of recruits and their marching expenses, until they should have joined their regiments. On closer inspection, it had been fouad that the charge was unwarrantable, and that the recruits received pay sqrom the moment they were recruited, and as their marching expenses . were otherwise provided for, they had no claim to any additional grant. He would next come to the vote for the battalion in Canada. 10,0001. had been voted last year under that head, and of that sum nothing had as yet been expended. He proposed an additional sum for that pur pose of 15,000/. which, with the previous 10,000/. would enable him to meet the whole charge. The object of that battalion was to form in Canada a corps of men so sil uated, and of so high a character, that no differences of the high wages and other tempta tions offered by the United Stator, and the facilities presented of passing the border, should induce them to desert. The whole force was to be composed of na tional treops, who had seen fourteen years' service. Ten years' service in the Royal Canadian Regiment was to entitle a man to a pension ; and he had the strongest reason for believing that they would be easily able to fill up the battalion on those terms. Tho only addi tional charge to the country, would be ono penny per day to each soldier. They would each receive fifteen pence a day, as all would be entitled to additional pay for length of service ; for that each man would be en- titled Co one and twopence a day. Every man, rank and file of that battalion, would receive 15d. a day, so that one penny a day per man would be the only additional charge to the country. The whcle of that, however, would not be an additional bunt= to the country, for they would save the expense of having to transfer a battalion every three years from the West Indies to Canada ; and of having every three years to transfer a battalion from Canada to this country. He believed they were forming a corps, which, for respectability of character and of station, would be quite unequalled ; every private soldier in which woul I wear two badges for good conduct, and would be iu the receipt of 151. a day. Great privile ;es would also to allowed this corps in respect of wives and chil Iren. 'l' cvelve women for every 100 men would be allowed rations, instead of six, as was the case with other regiments ; ar.d he thought, when they considered the respectability of the corps, and the great advantages which it would enjoy, that there would be no reason to apprehend desertions from it. He had given the subject his most anxious con ,dderatior. He was aware that objections might be urged against the plan, but he believed that on the whole it would be found to be the hest system that could be devised. He was again under the necessity of proposing a sum 15,000/. for the service at St. Ha. lona. They were not to imagine that he had been inattentive to the subject since last }ear, but the House must be aware that three had been reasons for his in action. Shortly after the matter had been brought forward in that House last year a frigate commanded by a Viench Prince of the lllood, had visited that island on an impartial mission, and of course the House must be aware that it would have bean exceedingly Improper to withdraw any portion of the regular troops during his visit. Since that time other circumstances had occurred to which it would be needless for him to advert, which had rendered it undesirable that any diminution should take place in the military establish ment of that h i o al w an e d ve . r, their i j w o i v rm m o e s e t t, It was wutaketh° th i e uten sa ti h o jnecotf into e serious consideration, and he trusted that next year ho might be able to announce that a reduction had been made. Tae total sum re quired for the effective service last year was 4,503,000/. ; on this year the amount would be reduced to .1,443,000/. from which 93,000/., borne by the East India Company, was to be deducted ; so that the actual amount wo uld be reduced to 3.110,774/. f or t hi s year. Lint year the sum required' amcunted t o 3,111,870 1 ., show in g a decrease this year of nearly and Allowances, for which attent;on was the Stiff Pay vac o f 51,153/. The 10,000/. The next item t , o which he should draw th , it he shoull this year propose , , a ( _ to ~,95 .., 81 so that vote last year had arnoun cI . 5 this year there was a reduction in that item , e, ,ro was an of 0/. 1,80 In the article of staff' co ntingence!, there in crease this year of 3,000/. Last year the vote had beau qame causes for 53,0001, and this year it amounte d to 56,000/. This increase was owing to precisely the . which had occasioned an increase in the regimental contingencies. It had taken place in the "me Colo nies, and was attributable to precisely analogous causes. The estimates under that head were made up for the next year fi-otn the accounts of the last year. There was an increase on the staff charges of the present year, oc casioned by the increased advantages given to medical officers, in accordance with the recommendations of the Naval and Military Commission. Had it not been for that alteration, the staff charges of this year, as com pared with those of last year, would have exhibited a slight diminution. The vote for the expenses of the Public Departments amounted this year to 79,7141. ; lost year it had amounted only to 60,146/. This in. crease was owing partly to the abolition of fees on mili tary commissions, i n dation of the Navaaelcoardnadneemiwiiiitahrythecorememomismsioenn: and i n which recommendation ho cordially concur- red, The stun formerly reee . o ed from this source amounted to 14,0001. There was a sum of 100/. now reserved for fees, but these were merely small office fees the imposition of which was rendered necessary to pre vent idle inquires being made and unnecessary trouble great increas e i n thi s c h arge was owing given.totlie A alterations in the Post- o ffi ce . I n hi s own being g rtment this increase amounted to to 1,0001., and in the Adjutant-General's to 335/. The increase in his own office was very great, for none of the letters to the War-office being prepaid, of course they were all charged double.—( Hear, heir, and laughter.) In the other expenses of his department the charges would not be greater this year than they had been last ; he ought at the same time, however, to state that he was not sure that if that estimate had been produced for the first time that night ho should not have proposed a small increase in the charges of his own establish ment, and that he should propose such an increase next year. A correspondence had been for some time going on between the War-office and the Trea sury for the purpose of endeavouring to introduce into the War -office a system of book-keeping analagous to that in use at the Admiralty. By the introduction of the Itsl . an system of bookkeeping by double entry at the War-office, the Sscretary-at-War would be enabled each year to exhibit to the House a regular balance -sheet.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think, however, that that change could be effected without the employment of additional clerks in the War office, and therefore it would be necessary for him next year to propose an increase in that depart ment. He should not ask for any vote this year for the Royal Military College, the receipts from that institu tion being sufficient for its support, which was also the case last year. The next item was the Royal Military Asylum. He had last year promised the lion. Mem ber for Kilkenny that he would do his utmost to reduce the expenses of that establishment. Since that time the Governor of the College at Southampton had died, and he had thought it his duty to abolish that estab lishment, and to transfer the children to Chelsea. Last. year the vote for the Royal Military Asylum had been 16,712/. ; this year it would only be 15,148/., so that there was a saving effected under this heed of 1,5641. Since he was on the subject of the Royal Military Asylum, he would advert to in matter connected with that establishment to which the atten tention of the House had last year been drawn by an IlJn. Gentleman, whom he did not see in his place ; he meant the difficulty under which it was all 'ged that the children of Protestant Dissenters and Catholics were placed in attending their religious worship. He had drawn the attention of the authorities of the Asy lum to that subject, and he was happy to say that a plaa bad been devised which completely obviated all objections and was calculated to satisfy persons of every religious persuasion, and he must take that opportunity of acknowledging the valuable assistance he had re ceived from the Bishop of London, who had devoted considerable attention to the subject, and had drawn up a resolution modifying the rule in such a manner as to remove the scruples of all, and yet to preserve the dis cipline of the Asylum, as connected with the Established Church, so that now Catholics and Dissenters could conscientiously receive the benefits of an institution which was, as it ought to be, open to the children of all alike, who had shed their blood in el, fence of their country. The next item was the volunteer corps ; the Government last year had, fortunately, had no occasion for calling on that corps to render as sistance to the civil power. Last year, thevote for the volunteer corps had amounted to 92,933/. This year, it was only 88,266/., showing a diminution of 10,0001. The total effective estimate last year had amounted to 3,853,000/. ; and this year it amounted to 3,846,000/., showing an increase of 9,000/. He now came to the non-effective estimate, in which Gentlemen generally expected to find some reduction. Under the first head, rewards for distinguished service, the estimate would not be found to differ very materially from the one of last year. In Jamaica, the Government had had ap pointments, amounting to 368/., placed at their disposal during the last year. Of that sum 2211. had been ap plied to the awarding of pensions for distinguished ser vices. Altogether 9861. had been placed at the dis posal of her Majesty for rewarding distinguished midi. tale , services. In the garrison offices in the colonies last year, a sum of 15,8151. had been voted ; this year he should propose a sum of 15,8381. He would mention that under this head was included the salary of the General Quartermaster at Malta, amounting to 136/. 171. 6d. That item had formerly ap peared in the Staff Estimates, but as that officer had really no duty to perform, it Lad been thought better to remove it into the present estimate. The charge for the pay of retired general officers had, as might have been ex pected, gone on regularly decreasing. Last year the number of these officers amounted to 198, and the charge was 92,000/. This year the number amounted to 183, and the charge was 85,000/. ; showing a saving of 7,000/. The next charge was for officers and vete rans retired on full pay. Thorn was an increase under this head in consequence of the recommendations of the Naval and Military Commisssion. It had before been considered expedient that no additions should take place under this head until the whole expense should have been reduced to 38,000/. ; but the Naval and Military Commission had recommended that the vete ran corps should be immediately filled up, but that no further appointments to them should take place until the expense had been reduced to 38,000/. Last year the estimates had been 57,300/. ; this year he should propose a vote for. 67,5004 This would go on regu larly decreasing until it was reduced to 38,000/. ; and it was never afterwards to exceed that sum. In the article of half-pay a saving had been effected, although 20 Lieutienant-Colonels had received :00/. a year each, in addition:to their half-pay. The vote last year had been for 505,500/.—this year it was 497,5001. For pensions for wounds last year the vote was 142,9841. — this year it was 141,048/. For pensions for widows last year the vote was 127,3001, and this year it was 124,0001., showing a decrease of 3501. For out pen sioners for Chelsea Hospital ho had last year proposed a vote of 3,300/. ; he should this year propose to increase that vote to 10,000/., making 13,300/. It had been for some time past in the contemplation of the Government to make a change in the manner of paying the Chelsea pensioners, which would, he trusted, be of great advantage to the pen sioners themselves, and to the well-being of society and of the country. Several communications had taken place with the Chelsea Board, and he believed the plan would very soon be adjusted, and as in that case funds would be wanted to set it in motion, he felt justified in asking an additional grant for that purpose, but he did not be lieve that it would lead to any permanent addition to the public charges. The vote for superannuation amounted last year to 42,000/., this year it would amount to 43,0001. This increase was caused by the regular course of things, and one half of it bad Loan owing to the return of Sir Howard Douglas to this country, as during the time that that Gallant Officer was Governor of the lonian Islands he did not receive his superannuation. In bringing forward these estimates he trusted he had done so as briefly and as succinctly as possible.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He had purposely abet tined from all exciting topics, for he believed that genil-man on both sides the House, in discussing the Army Esti mates, were actuated only by a desire to place the esta blishments of the kingdom on that footing which might most conduce to the well-being of the country. Mr. HUME would merely draw the attention of the House to the pledges of peace and economy which the present Government had given on taking office, and yet, notwithstanding these pledges the army was in creased by 43,000 men to what it was in 1822. He would submit, that if economy was one of the pledges given by the Government, it was a pledge that had not been kept. He said this with no hostile feeling to them, only ho protested against imposing on the country a war estal , lishment in time of peace. The necessity for this had been occasioned by their misgovernment of Canada, and by their folly in going to fight windmills in Syria. That had been followed by the alienation of the French nation, and the consequent endangerment of the peso° of Europe. He regarded that alienation as ominous in the highest degree to the future peace of Europe, for as long as the French and English nation agreed the peace of Europe could not be endangered. They might have reduced their establishment to the lowest possible ebb consistent with a case of emer gency, and they might have kept it upon that scale. It remained, therefore, to be seen whether the Govern ment were justified in fallowing the policy they had adopted. He regretted to see that Englishmen, borne down as they were by taxation, ‘tere obliged to keep up se large a military establishment. In the last five years, the army, navy, and ordnance had in creased three millions and a half; and he believed their establishments this year would amount to four millions and a half more than it did in 1836. This was a mat terd wlmvaai misery- e o rns f yuoseriouswti isemttrhaepneoit day f i t a ,t c ol e nfi no.r t ies o octnek t r l ot i sehn ought n c upg o go u i n otr rtetr poorer aae ll these i i lleceess o t,e f bo t et h nch i a s i tnu h l gs i c the fact was t h at under the present e present system the industry of the co untry was taxed, and the man of fortune felt it not. The country would not be satisfied until a property tax was itup oEe l , b y a which the wealthy would 1 • pelled to coettibuteas large a proportion e rtionof tl ) iei c r o i n n l • come towards the burthens of the country as the poor. He regrt t'ed to see the military establishm en t s an amuch increased ; he had hoped th at b efore this time matters would have been settled between this country and America, but every thing seemed t o h ave g i ven way to the Syrian question , and in consequ ence o f this they had been unab l e to withd raet the la rge f orce they had in America. He was sorry to see that matters did not up a large military estab look very peaceably between that country and England, but he believed that bad resulted from the policy adopted in this country, which would have the effect of t a h t , e t c h o e u e n e t p ry en t s o e k o e f e f p our . or five millions a-year. Irsl f G th E e hHaodnl.isAteineemdbwerithfogrreatatten loi,blisl i l g nir i e n nti g t Kilkenny, proportion to its difficulties in re spectcountry was to be in p tion to th . e l !p A ee ß e p h 'relations, must be considerably and he agreed with him that if the expenditure of the to its foreign that there had been an in crease of . He pe n ngton and his Right lion, Fricnd left off ice in but the exdriteugrreett since the Duke of wLni House had to consider whether the expenditure was necessary or not. He was sorry to differ from the Hon. Member for Kilkenny with respect to: the Army Estimates, but ho thought those estimates this year did not go far enough, because the pressure upon the army in the colonies had been so very great, that if relief was not gis en, they would not be able to carry on any relief at a ll. Considering the situation in which the troops were placed in the Colonies, he was in hopes of seeing a larger estimate for the purpose of relieving them. Now what was the state of the army? Wby, including the troops on passage, the number of battalions abroad was 84, at home 19 ; and how, therefore, was it possible for 19 battalions at home to afford relief for 84 batta lions abroad ? That, however, was not all, for out of the 19 battalions at home, eight of them had only re turned from the Colonies in 1840 ; and the consequence was that out of the 19 only 11 were in a mili tary state of organisation ? Was that a state of things in which the army ought to be placed? And, added to this, out of the 19 battalions there was not one that had been at home four years. The battalion that had been just sent out, had been tea years in Jamaica, ten years in Meturitius, and twenty years in India, and now it was on its return to India again, after being in this country only about three years. Ought such a state of things to exist in the British army ? were the regiments of the line to be condemned to almost perpetual banishment? In fact, the state of the army was such at present, that unless some remedy was applied, a severe blow would be in flicted upon the discipline of the army. He did not state this to encourage the Government to in creased expenditure, but he stated it for the purpose of showing the defects of the system. They must, if they wished to have the army effective, establish a system by which the troops could return to this country, after they had had a sufficient quantity of service abroad. In 1837, when the rebellion broke out in Canada, the peace establishment there was nine battalions, and ten more were very properly sent out upon that occasion. In India the establishment was 20 battalions, and now it was 23 battalions. In the Mediterranean there was an augmentation of two battalions, so that there was an excess of 13 battalions rendered necessary, in consequence of the foreign rela tions of this country ; and if they went to any of the colonies, they would find it impossible to make any alteration in their establishments. (Hear, hear.) If they looked to the state of our affairs in India it was im• possible to say that there could he any reduction ; and, considering the hostile feelings which prevailed on the frontiers of the United States, so far from a reduction, there should, if the Government meant to act with vigour, be an addition to the force in Canada. He did not wish to imitate the conduct of the Members of Congress in making angry speeches.—( Hear, hear.) It was tho less necessary to do so, because the claims of this country were supported by our Minister, Mr. Fox, in the most manly and vigorous manter.—(Hear.) But he thought all par ties must admit that it would be highly imprudent under present circumstance; to reduce our force in that country. —( Hear, hear.) It was not possible, with the present pi ice, that the reliefs should be properly carried on. For the last four years the army had been so situated as to render that impossible. What was the number abroad and the number at home ? The number abroad this year— (ho spoke, of course, of the infantry of the line, for by them it was that the pressure was felt, and not by the cavalry, including the troops on their passage)—;vas 60,000 ; the number at home was 26,400. The estimate only gave an increase of nine men ; but, far all the purposes of Great Britain and the Colonies, there was a diminutim of 1,420 men. He was convinced that if the Noble Lord were to come forward and propose a supplemental vote of 5,000 men, no doubt that proposal would give great satisfaction to the army. He trusted the observations which, as a military man, he had thought it his duty to make, would induce the Noble Lord to take some early step towards remedying the evil of which he bad complained. Lord J. RUSSELL said the objections made to this estimate by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny aad his Hon. Friend were certainly of a very different nature; one com plaining that it was too small, and the other that it was unnecessarily large. He did not agree with either of those objections. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny complained of the increase since 1830, and he asked why it had been made. Without entering into any defence of the foreign policy of this country, he (Lord John Russell) thought the state of our foreign relation;, and especially the state of Canada, was a sufficient justification of the increase. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny had rather a short way of de ciding these questions. He said that they had engaged in a war in Canada because they did not choose to yield the demands of those who were disaffected ; that they required an increase, because they were, through their own misconduct, on bad terms with Ame rica and France. The Hon. Gentleman always presumed thet the Government of his own country must be in the wrong—namely, as compared with the French Govern ment, the United States Government, or with Messrs , . Papincau and Mackenzie.—( Hear, hear.) He (Lord J. Russell) could not accede to this short way of disposing of the question. On a proper occasion he would be prepared to show that the Government had throughout their transactions received the sanction of Parliament, and were justiied therefore in asking for the increase. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that there were now, in. cluling the army, navy, and ordnance, 130,000 men be longing to the regular forces of this country, which was an increase above the estimate of 1822 of 43,000, and of 25,000 above that of 1830. With regard to the estimate of 1830, he (Lord J. Russell) was not disposed to find any fault with that estimate; it was suited to the circum stances of the country at. that time. The circumstances of the country since that period, especially during the last three or four years, had undergone a great change. Per sons were in the habit of saying that it was very extraor dinary that after 25 years of peace it should be thought necessary to have such large establishments. His (Lord John Russell's) observation, looking to the state of the world, and to the establishments proposed in other countries, was that that very long duration of peace was the very circumstance which made men estimate too highly and apprehend too little, the great and almost incalculable evils of war.—(Hear, hoar.) Those who had seen war were best able to estimate the invaluable blessings of peace. After twenty-five years of peace it was far more difficult to preserve peace than it was at the termination of the' i war.—( Hear, hear.) In a neighbouring country there had been lately an immense increase of war establishments. One item only, the construction of naval and military works, amounted to twelve millions sterling, whilst the speeches made at pubic meetings, and even in the. Senate of the United States, called upon the Government of this country to be ou the alert. He might safely rest the proposed increase upon the state of our relations with Foreign Powers. But the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite complained, chiefly on the ground of the unfrcquency of relief, that the proposed increase was not large enough. He (Lord J. Russell) could not be supposed to undervalue the services of the leritish army. He believed there vas no army in the world which made such exertions, not only when they were accompanied by the splendid triumphs of war and the glory of victory, but such continued, perse vering., and perpetual exertions in time of peace, to met it the approbation of their Sovereign and their country, under going the fatigue of distant voyages, and suffering too often from unhealthy climates and long absence from home. But the country often required those sacrifice: and exer t'ons ; and in such cases they were made without the least murmurirr,.—( Hear, hea , ..) The number of men employed for home and colonial service, in 1830, was 81,164; in 1841-42 it was 91,363, being an i :crew() of 10,000 men.—( Hear.) Since the year 1830 extra ordinary services bad been performed by the army. Fr sm seven to e;ght thousand men had been sent to Canada in consequence of the disturl ances. It must be remembered that the climate of Canada was by no means unhealthy. It was impossible, as the Hon. Gentleman had said, to reduce the force stationed at the Mauritius. An addi tional battalion had been seat to Bermuda and two addi tional regiments to the Me - literre.nean ; but lie trusted that it would not be necessary to keep that additional force in those station!. With respect t' India it should be re marked that the regiments which in the common course of events would have been ordered to return home had not been sent in consequence of the expedition to China. The general establishment for India wee not altered, it fstill consisted of twenty regiments of the line. He believel there was no necessity for making an etc ration in the present cyst :m India. When there were such demands as there had been of late, there were, as the Hon. Gentleman said, a very small number of regiments at home ; the majority were abroad. But whilst there were six companies abroad, there were four at home L and for six oflictrs abroad, four remained at home. The proportion of men was 600 to 200, and of effic , rs six to four. It was not true, thl!ref re, that the whole regiment was abroad. If they wished to have a more frequent relief, the bettc; plan would seem to be to make the depots consi,t of a smaller number. They thus would require a smaller number of regiments abroad, and be able to give more frequent relief. Upon that question his Noble Friend had proposed a plan wh ch was vi ry ably drawn up, and upon which the Government cor.snhelthe Commander-in-Chief, and requested the opinion which Duke the Commander-in-Chief obtained of the of Welliegt m. The military reasons w hich w Weree. g gton lediven by e e llin ha i r 3 d u - t one him of the ad o adopt consequencesthe system w which ar; o t a h t e such men as Lord Hill and the Duke earance ship in reality, and much great-r hardship op f of r dief infrequency ments at home, and the frequency or Canada, there was no Upon the whole, with the exception of d therey r ecommended. ca cing rgreat with respect to the number of regiments abornoatdheantdroooprse.eoref v ry peculiar or extraordinary demand upon very great this country. There always had of any other country. But etre oft wits, de mand--a greater demand than there and engaged beenwho upon te q t I,,ure.ehhi the isf lc tint demand and of these services and ip armies of of ha o d the a r il co t u h n e t t r i i u e a s, lit w i , e h s en °f of our armies that they disciplined armies, it was the characteristic. _ hue of were as efficient in time r f peaccAs i n Too system adapted its Prussia and tew years, and then have tile men in active service for a d something like a allow them to :go home. That otl . er countries was to body of militia, hut the discipline teas, contrary, incomplete. Their service was. on the and he believed it pline forme consequently, very distin guished by its permanency and seven would be found in the end the campaatig.n, There was one other point, namely ilia year, but that thousand men which had been voted acome vote was nut on the ground solely of disturbances home, f n service but to relieve some of the regiments mos t ly a t d i v le an i t n ar e o a u s s e sy o s f te fi m ve . h " number had been and that was why no reduction en in 1832 and increased, for in 1830 it was 81,000 there was a rr 1833 it was 88,000 and 89.000, and then - I 1839 it amounted duetion for some years to 80,000. - ' proposed. Of late years the number certainly certainly had been there had bee n no gr eat i ncrease f or t h e l as t three It would be seen from th at that years, and he trust e d, t 9 01 , 8 3 8 0 , 0 0 .0 0 , in 1840 it rya= 92, 000, and in 1841-2 it was therefore, the Committee would agree to the vote of his Right Hon. Friend* THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 6, 1811 Sir ROBERT PEEL would certainly give his cordial support to the proposition before the Committee, with a firm conviction on his mind that the demand made by the Exe cutive Government did not exceed the exigencies of their foreign service. He should be exceedingly sorry if their proceedings would form a pretext for any foreign powers to increase their forces, and there might he some justice in the remark of the Noble Lord, that the long duration of peace did not necessarily indispose men to the recurrence of war. The present generation were not practically acquainted with the horrors of war, and therefore they ware not so much indisposed to encounter its calamities as those who had bad practical experience of its evils. He thought that those Governments and countries who were unnecessarily increasing their military force-, made a very false estimate of the people whom they govcerned, if they supposed that there were not other evils besides the actual devastation of the country, which were the result of these expensive and unnecessary armaments. That, he had no doubt, would soon be felt by every Government in Europe, and they would find that the enormous taxation by which the se establishments were supported, would so fetter the indus try, and interfere with the tranquillity of these countries, that it would result in something like that of actual colli sion with the people, and thereby convince them of the necessity of preserving the relations of amity and peace.— ( Hear, hear.) Tire present state of their finances might certainly he said to affect the vote they were called upon to give, and no one could contemplate with more regret than himself the growing deficiency in the revenue, which within the last three years amounted to four and a half millions. But that was no reason why they should not take timely precautions, although it might be a good ground for dispensing with superfluities The tuaratist. c tory state of their finances could be no reason for neglect ing those proper precautions which would save them ten fold the expense hereafter.—(Hen-.) He saw nothing in their present state, which would prevent them placing the naval and military force of the country on a proper footing. Ile certainly gave his vote with very imperfect means of information, and he never knew a time when they had such scanty information as to the real position in which the country was p'rened. What knew they of the state of their affairs in Central Asia? What did they know of their prospects on the banks of the Indus? They knew not at what instant they might be called on for an increased mili tary force in that quarter. With regard to the expedition to China, they were in a state of utter ignorance and had no means of forming a judgment as to tho result.—( Hear, hear.) Again, with regard to the United States, there was a strong impression that the state of their relations in that quarter did not admit of their making any reduc tion of their military establishment. He had that impres sion, although he had no means of forming a correct judg ment. Notwithstanding all that, they had heen repeatedly in formed that every state and principality on the face of the ea. th had given them the most unqualified assurances of their desire to preserve their friendly relations with this country ; and yet on the Continent they were raising their military establishments to 400,000 and 500,000 men, and neighbouring Powers were evoking their energies and re sources, to the detriment of commerce, industry, and civilization. He trusted these Governments would learn that they owed a responsibility to the permanent public opinion of the country, which would enable them to resist such a step. If they were now to be involved in a war, they were going to be involved in it upon grounds that would never terminate. It would lead to long and exhausting mutual animosities, without any one intelligible object, and he should be sorry there were any of the glories of war attending such a struggle. He never knew a period in the history of Europe when there was less assignable or rational ground for hostilities than at present.--(Hear.) He trusted that that power of public opinion which was so inseparably connected with civilization and refinement, would put down and overpower the hot and hasty spirits who were so desirous of war.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He said that as an Englishman, because if they were compelled to go to war, then Foreign Powers would see that in this country there would be an utter oblivion of all internal animosities and dissensions-- (Loud cheers)—and that ho (Sir R. Peel) could afford to forget all the councils he had ever given for peace. They would see that Englishmen would stand by their ancient reputation, and prove to the world that the military name and reputation of Great Britain remained as high as ever. --(Loud cheers.) That England and Scotland, aye, and Ireland too—( Loud cheer:)—those three great parts of one United Kingdom—were as ever indomitable—that their ancient prowess had not been lessened, and that they were ready to vindicate the honour and glory of the British name.—(Cheers.) So much for the general principles on which he should support any increase, if it had been pro posed by her Majesty's Government. With respect to the addition to the naval force which had been so wisely made, he entirely approved of it, and little as.his confidence was in their policy, he should, if the interests of the country required it, be prepared to give his ready assent to any vote for an increase of their present establishment. He did hope that the prospects which had cast - a shade over the general tranquillity would shortly vanish. Independently of all these things, their duty towards the army should prevent there pressing too hardly upon then. When he heard that a regiment had been 20 years in India, and only 10 years out of 60 at home, he confessed he could not contempla'e such a state of, things without great regret. It was a great evil to separate soldiers for so long a time from their native country. It was of immense importance, instead of sending them to the Colonies where they mixed in a different state of society, to have them for a longer period at home. He should hail such an arrangement with great satisfaction. When he read the accounts of what had recently occurred in the United States, after orders hai been sent out for the liberation and protection of Mr. M'Leod, and after the burning of the C.roline had been openly avowed by the Government, and when he saw what had since occurred there, while professing the utmost horror of any interruption of their amicable relations, he must say that he did not think it would be for the interest of the country to adopt a dishonourable course by making any unjust concessions. —(Cheers.) He hoped they would never forget the claims which the inhabitants of the North American Colonies had upon the mother country, and while he deprecated a war with that country, still the more the honour and the interests of the country were involved, the higher must be their feelings of indigna tion against injustice, and their determination to stand by the cause of their country, and insist that justice should be done to it.—( Cheers.) Lord HO WICK regretted exceedingly that he had missed the early part of the discussion. In the sentiments expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman he fully concurred, and he was convinced that by whatever power the general peace was first broken, it would be compelled to submit to public opinion. .He trusted that the Government would use their best exertions to promote the great commercial interests of the country, as the best means of averting the calamity of war which was at present impending ; but if the country had no other alternative lett it, ho felt satis fied that that House would not hesitate to come forward and, merging all minor and party differences, take such stops as would best maintain the honour and independence of the British name.—(Cheers.) With regard to the length of service of the regiments abroad, he would re mind the House that in 1838 he had been authorised by the Government, of which he then formed a part, to devise a plan for relieving the pressure upon the:regiments abroad. Since then three years had passed away, and he regretted no steps had been taken to carry that plan into effect. lie did not wish to go into details. He thought there was inconvenience in discussing details of the number of men rcqui ed in particular parts of our domiuions. Per haps he could hardly enter into that discussion without availing himself of the information which be possessed, from having held office recently in the department to which the subject under discussion belonged. He would, therefore, avoid all discussion on the matter. But this plain, bread, and simple fact he would state. It appeared on the face of a public journal, di voted to military matters, that the number of battalions sent abroad com pared with the number at home, instead of augmenting, sine the year 1838, had, on the contrary, been ci minished. He had been referring that afternoon to a Journal which was devoted exclusively to matters cen nected with the two services, and he observed in that Journal returns of the stations of the British army on the Ist of March, and by that it appeared that only twenty comple:e battalions were now abroad. Sir H. HA RDlNGE—Nine:een. Lord HO WICK—It was not of much consequence which. In the year 1838 the number of battalions at home were twenty-eight, and at no period did it fall below twenty-five. That was a very serious alteration with respect to the condition of the soldiers—an increase amounting to near one-fifth of the regiments abroad as compare ito what it was three years ago. With respect to the 27th Regiment, so severe was the pressure of our service, that that regiment, which returned from upwards of ten years' service in Jamaica to this conntry in April, 1837, must now be sent abroad for, probably, twenty years to India. That was a fact that must carry conviction with it to the minds uf Hon. Members of the pressure of the sera vice. His Noble Friond referred to the depot system. He (Lord H.) would not then enter into that question. It was one of some difficulty. Every gentleman who ever considered the subject was of opinion that the system of depots was essential from the nature of our service. Ho (Lord H.) had proved so in spite of the high authority which bad been brought against him, and ho was of opi nion that modifications might be made in that system which would, without at all interfering with the objects of those depots, increase the facilities of making reliefs. If they adhered to the present system of depots all he (Lord H.) could ay was, tint the consequence of it would be that it would keep up the pressure of the troops, but if they did not take that mode EOM other one must be arrived at for relieving the troops. He thought that they ought deliberately to weigh all the reasons for and against the improvement of the depot system, and if they were of opinion that the system ought to remain un altered, it was their duty to provide some other means of relief. His Noble Friend (Lord John Rus sell) was aware that these were his opinions, and that he did not bring forward in that place opinions which he had not advocated in a place of higher authority. His Noble Friend was aware that he (Lurd Howick) agreed to the army estimates in 1839, on condition that sonic mode would be adopted of relieving the pressure on the British a-my. Various measures were in agitation for that purpose. He did not say they were agreed to, but eel tsinly those estimates would never have been moved were it not that he was under the impression that the pres sure of Ow British army would Le relieved. He entirely concurred with the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth in the qieions he expressed of the miserable short- ighted economy evinced in the management of that branch (the infantry) of the British army. No circumstance, be was convinced, more than another tended to render the service of the British army at the present moment so unpopular as it wan, than the fact that the relations of the men who enlisted in regiments of the line, under the present system in the army, considered that they would never aga'n be hold them. It was that feeling, existing in the minds of the relations and friends of those classes which supplied our army with recruits, that rendered our infantry service unpopular, notwithstanding the great pains taken of lat years to do what was possible to ienprove the condition of our troops. He would nut enter further into that question at the present moment. He would only state his great disappointment at finding the army estimates brought far ward three years after the time when those measures of improvement were suggested, without there having been any steps taken to accomplish those measures. He thought it I was the duty of that House to prove to the men who formed their army, and who underwent such severe service in our colonies, that they would endeavour by some arrangement to enable those men to spend a fair proportion of their time of service within this kingdom. Mr. MAC AUL A Y thought that the pressure of ser vice on the troops at the present time was certainly severe, and he concurred with the Noble Lord who had just sat down, that means should be taken to relieve the troops. But he begged at the same time to remi ml his Noble Friend, that the Government were not altogether to flame for the imputations which the Noble Lord had thrown out against them, for not having relieved the troops of the pressure complained of. Subsequently to the time when the Noble Lord gave those promises, to which he ( Lord Howick ) had adveltsd, five thousand additional troops were raised, and f r that measure two reason? were asigned—the dis turbed state of the country, and the necessity of granting some relief to the troops. Happily one of th-se reasons, the disturbed state of the country, now no longer existed; and if they were oily to look to the internal aid supplied for the preserving the peace of the cour4 a ry, they might well spare the additional five thousand men to relieve the troops abroad. With the gene ral principles which were laid down on the sub ject he (Mr. Macaulay) fully agree& But he thought that if the country we.e so tranquil as that they coull spare not oily every soldier but every policeman, it would be irnposible to prevent a pressure on the troops to a greater or less extent. Tlo question fur the Government to consider was whether it was reasonable in the present state of things that the system now in existence should continue or not. Captain BOLD ERO did not think that the number of troops was at all sufficient for the exigencies of the coun try. He would code wour to base a Select Committee appointed to ttkeoffthe warrant which altered the pensions. That warrant was working detrimentally to the service. Lord ARTHUR LENNOX thought the present would be a good opportunity to inquire of the Master- General of Ordnance, whether it was iutenled to issue percussion firelocks to the army, as the old locks were found to be very inefficient. Sir H. VIVIAN said be thought the question would have been more appropriately put when the Ordnance Estimates were Eefore the House; and as he hope] to bring them forward on Monday, he would beg leave to defer answering the question to that dal. With respect to what had just fallen from Hon. Members, t e admitted the pressure on the army, and thought the system of reliefs was a mistaken one, and one which required well looking into, and new arrangement. M. MA CAUL A Y said that during the last year a measure had teat adopted, which, although it did not facili tate the relief corps would greatly facilitate the relief of individual. Sir 11. HARDINGE sail he quite agreed with what had fallen from the Noble Lord (Lord Hoyt ick), and was perfectly satisfied with the result of the debate. He agreed with the Master-General of the Ordnance, that he thought the whale system of reliefs ought to be examined; but he hoped it would not be thought that aay blame attached to the Quartermaster-General, whose particular duty it was to attend to the reliefs. He was sure that no officer in the service had performed his duty more faithfully than the Quartermaster- General. Sir DE LACY EVANS said he differed a little in opinion as to the tone adopted on this subject by the Right Hon. Gentlemen. which, however, ho attributed alto gether to a zeal for the service ; but he did not think it quite consistent wish the existing law to argue the question as if it was a grievance to the army.— ( Hear, hear.) Everybody admitted the advantage of a good system of relief ; but he did not think either officers or mea Felt the inconvenience of the present sys tem in the degree intimated by the tone adopted in the House ; and if it were so he would suggest the propriety of not adopting such a tone. He merely wished to throw it out as a suggestion. Sir H. HARDINGE said ho was surprised that the Gallant Officer should censure him for interference when he rose as a Member of that House to discharge what he conceived to be his duty to the service. He was not aware that there was anything objectionable in the tone he had adopted, and as he considered it to be a calm and proper one, he hoped, whenever he should again choose to exercise his right as an independent Member, it would be in the same tone as the. he had used on the present occasion. Sir DE LACY EVANS said, the Right Hon. Gen tleman had entirely mistaken him. He (Sir De Lacy Evans) was not aware that he had said one word about the interference of the Gallant Officer in the affairs of the army.—( [leer, hear.) He had merely said, that he be lieved the Gallant Officer was actuated by zeal for the service, and good motives, but that he (Sir De L. Evans) objected, as he had a right to do, to the tone which he had adopted, which he thought was not calculated to excite good feeling in the army. He might have been in error, but that was his opinion.—( Hear, hear.) After a few words from Sir H. VERNEY, which were not heard in the gallery, Mr. FIUME said, he wished to offer a little advice to the Secretary at War as to the mode of remedying these complaints, which he thought he could convince the House were owing to mismanagement, and not to be reme died by increasing our forces. Our army consisted of 92,000 men, 46,000 of whom were at home. There were quite sufficient for relief, if all had their regular turns of service, which he thought it was but fair and proper they should have. After a few words from Mr. H AWES, Colonel RAWDON took the opportunity of noticing the great diminution of force in Ireland. There were now 8,000 men less in that country than in the year 1830. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote was for a sum of 3,510,7741., for the pay ment of the land forces of the United Kingdom. Mr. HUME asked if the sum of 10,7951., which ap peared in the estimate, under tho head of postage, was for postage alone ? Mr. MACAUL AY said that it included the expense of stationary and other charges. The vote was then agreed - to. On the motion that 167,4491. be granted for the payw, staff officers on foreign stations. Mr. H UME said that, as no one had thought proper to bring before the House the conduct of Lord Hill in re spect to the 11th Dragoons, which had caused great ex citement, and given great scandal throughout the country, he thought that was the proper opportunity for calling the attention of the House to the subject. Although the matter had not been alluded to in the House, public opinion had been strongly expressed upon it. The Press on all sides had done its duty. He thought it right to declare his opinion that the conduct of the Secretary at War had been highly culpable, seeing how public feeling had been out raged and irritated : and what had been the conduct of the Commander-in-Chief towards Lord Cardigan, who had commanded his regiment in such a way that no man, having the feelings of a gentleman, could serve under him. He ( Mr. 11.) blamed Lord Hill more than Lord Cardigan—( Hear and a laugh)--for his laxity in some cases, and his severity in others.—( Hear.) He should like to see a return laid on the table of the House of how many officers had left the regiment in consequence of Lord Car digan's conduct, and how many had got leave of absence, rather than they should be allowed to sell out or throw up their commissions, which would bring additional odi am upon the corps.—(Hear, hear.) Conduct more likely tir injure the service of the country ha had neve r seen in a long life of attention to public affairs, and it was his conviction that no officer could enter the regiment under Lord Cardigan, without writing the word " slave " upon his forehead. ( Hear, hear.) He had brought to a court-martial an officer of twenty six years' standing, who bad received the appro bation and commendation of every superior under who.n he had served, ura:l lie came into contact with Lord Car digan. There had been a court-martial upon another officer, and he would ask any honest man who attended to the proceedings whether he did not anticipate a different result?—( Hear, hear.) He thought the whole conduct of the Commander-in- Chief was unjust and injurious to her Majesty's service ; but he did not so much blame that Noble Lord as the Secretary at War, at whose door he thought all tha blame should bo laid.—( Hear and a laugh. ) Mr. M ACAUL Y regretted that a subject which bad excited so much irritation throughout the country should be brought ft r ard under present circumstance. —(llear, hear.) He had not now an op portunity of entering into the matter fully. But he would endeavour, without g'ving offence to any one, to state the principles which governed her Majesty's Ministers in the course they had pursued, and which, he had no doubt, would be approved of as soon as the irritation upon tic subject should subside. In the first place he would a.k the lion. Member for Kilkenny, whether there was any thing in the whole matter whereupon to raise an imputation against her Majesty's Government ?—( Hear, hear.) Was Lord Cardigan a partisan of the Government? —( Hear, hear.) Miniatars could not be accused of party f,vour to that officer.—( Hear, hear.) But wer .! they to be c`sargeil with cowardice ?—( Hear, hear.) Why ? There was no difference of opinion amongst the press. Was there any difference of opinion amongst the public generally ? ( Hear, heir.) Could Lord Cardigan go on a railway train without being hissed by the rassengers ?—( Hear.) Could he go into a theatre without having the whole audi once sot upon him?—( Hear, hear.) Could Probart, after the murder, or Hare, after the trial at Edinburgh, be more hunted down ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it cowardly of the Government not to take adven t age of that unpopularity of a political opponent ? ( Hear, hear)—especially when the matter had been de termined by a General who had led tha British armies in many a field, and had filled the office of Commander-in- Chief under several administrations of different political parties.—( Hear, hear.) That distinguished General was decidedly of opinion that there was no case before him for instititiiting a court-martial upon Lord Cardigan. Was the Government then to put him upon half-pay, or to dis miss him without any court-martial ?—( Hear, hear, heir ) Were they to put him upon half-pay as a punishment ? ( Cheers. ) He ( Mr. M.) would never agree to the prin ciple that half-pay was to be a punishmeet —( Cheers) —because half-pay was intended partly as a reward for past and partly as an earnest for future services.—( Loud cheers.) The alternative then was dismissal from the service or a court-martial : and it was the opinion of Lord Hill that there was no ground for a court-martial.—( Hear, hear.) The Crown had, and in his opinion, ought to have, the prerogative of dismissal from the service without giving a reason. But it was a prerogative which ought not to he lightly exercised. lie would venture to say that this was the first time in the history of this count-y in which the Minister of the Crown had not dismissed f om the service of the Crown an unpopular Nobleman who always voted against them. He would give no judgment on Lord Cardigan's conduct; all he contended for wa', that the Government had been throughout actuated by the purest motives, and he was sure before many months should have elapsed that those who were now the loudest in their condemnation would admit the justice of their conduct.---( Cheers.) Mr. HUME had not blamed the Governmeat for not dismissing Lord Cardigan without a court- mart i a l. H e had again and again declared his opini on t h at no effiei-e. ought to be dismissed without a court- martial; but was there no alternative? Could they not have instituted a Court of Inquiry to ascertain if those complaints EVENING EDITION. were well or ill founded ? An inquiry would r. have satisfied the public mind. Cardigan was one of the ari:tecracy—one uf that body who were, as the people believed, always shielded by those in power of whatever acts they might be gu;lty. is mitted that the Press had in relavon to this affair been ht many instances ridiculously extravagant ; but the Rig t Hon, Gentleman was mi taken if he thought he could se public opinion at defiance. Had he been some subaltern officer, an inquiry or a di,missal would have been tile sequence. He complained of tint! Government for n• ot having instituted a Court of Inquiry. d of But tat yard Lord JOHN RUSSELL would only say one wor to the Court of Inquiry. Each one of the facts had bee n inquired into by Lord Hill as they had arisen. Evil ° li n a c must believe the Lord Hill had acted inpartially, r after each case had been inquired into by him, any fart the inquiry would have been contrary to the rules a , t ai army. did not believe that Lord Cardigan r derived any advantage from his rink or coucectioor; On the contrary, he bel'evel that conduct such ' i t! would have been passed over by t.:e press and the Pu t ' le i with rcry little notice in a mere simple Lieutenant-Colonca of a Dragoon regiment—(Cheers)—who did not haPP n e o to be a Peer of the realm, and from attacking wh f a r great degree cf notoriety could have accrued. from his rank having shielded him, he thought it had contributed to increase the pub'ic excitement againEt; rrai and to give weight and gniorde to many cha'br lci: whieh, in any other case, would have been th ou g ht volous.—(Che nat. ) • fat Lord HO WICK had not anticipated that that Ro e _ f I subj,...et would hare been brought under the attent:on er the II mse that eveni H ! did not think the ans eje t of his Noble Fread altogether sai-feetorv. H e ° r e ,: no strictures on Lord Hill, for in such a case the ,s' t ,`" - mande--in-Ch'ef had douttle:s consulted with ala "`„; guided by the Gov,..rnme at, and therefore they eel) . 7, - 0, reTonsible. H 3 agreed that it would be the 8 1 ; 1 3 injustice to dismiss an cfficer without a court-marts`' n o also that nothing could be more improper than to pl'e a offic ron half-pay as a punishment. In a former nuid happy transaction relating to Lord Cardigan , he.C),ang• not but think a great error hid been cominittad l' c os him upon t!:e balf-oay list, from the consequenura of which they were at the i present moment in some m'r, oos suffering. He thought that had been a most injud,l,c' determination that hid been come to in the case of ualiv, Wathen to place Lnrd Cardigan on half-pay without adc ing given him an opportunity of being heard in h°. en fence. He did not think his Noble Fiend bad e r r any reason for the non-appointment of a Court of I n q uird .b . • a such Nothing was more common than the institution ens a Court, in cases in which the state of a rngio ent b t u , unsatisfactory, in which the officers did not live in d i t , mony together, and in which the discipline able to the regiment. He did not doubt but tha: 'w e b Hill had adjudicet-d rightly in each of the cas es t hose had been submitte I to him, but the frequency 0 ' ▪ of disputes rendered some inquiry int.) the general sP t ,,;:ber the regiment re, ensary in order to ascertain w" ; a nt those frequent quarrels bad been occasioned by a n Y - diog of temper or discretion on the part of the Comic° t he Officer. He could not forget the court-martial, igloo case of Captain Wathen ; and the subsequent re'` Qta r die of Lord Cardigan to full-pay and the command of a „ s o , ment made it necessary that an inur should he 1 ;c u ll tuted in order that the public might beaconvinced th a ` t i J . and ample justice has been done to all r r ot e l ia was not erf,ora Further than thin, it was notorious that when ' 3 l ' be Reynolds was brought b-fire the c ourt-mar lsa loca pleaded in extenuation great provocation. HI ( A cted Hoick) thought that the court-martial had t he properly in excluding the evidence with respect Tor provocation. If there had been a violation o f diil tu p on the part of an officer which no provocation cool toed' tify, that might have been a ground for the Crown e t - L ir . t• ing its mercy, but it was no part of the duty . a th e -cis tae martial to inquire into it. He thought, lookiog,a bas high character of all the officers in the regimen t ' I hre ll impossible that what had taken place should ha u v c passed over without investigation.—( Cries of n e otell He thought the cause that had been 11,1"'itilb was highly unfortunate for the interests of th e - acre army—(Hear)—and if Lord Cardigan's conduct bad 010 such as he was willing to believe it was, he had beeeared seri - msly ill used by withholding the inquir. that such an inquiry would have been moat satisfactorY, it the army and the nation at large. For these t his appeared to him, the course that had been pursued irls case was not satisfactory, and was not calculated to mote the real interests of the British army. Sir H. VIVAN had beard the speech of . Lord Sir Noble) 1,1‘1,1 who had just rat down with regret, The Noble L e 1 6.0. blamed Lord Hill for not bringing the case of L ord Lo rd dig-an before a Court of Inquiry. He thought that'' and Hill had acted in the only manner he could have annes'etri he believed that Lord Cardigan could hardly h al f olio otherwise than he had done. He had a high op at; t his Lord Cardigan as an officer, and at the very time teat matter was going on, he had placed a son of his '" 0 the very regiment, and that alone he thought would Prn t; feeling he entertained towards Lord Cardigan- ` • itleh• l ° sorry to hear what had been stated that night by th e Lord. , bee ° , Mr. HAWES regretted that the subject had no t brought forward by a military Man. It was said thatng were no means of inquiry in that House. Acen tcl ; i rcgt that, officer after officer might be driven from h' s , ato meat, and no redress be obtained. He believed t i3 n ;ere o not the commanding-officer possessed some othe r 1 . - 1 bay'' but that which attached to his office, the result woo' 00 0 been different. There was one way of treating th e a r o os l l who had suffered under Lord Cardigan which he 0e • had boon omitted.alll Hregretted that the constituleerS the army had not admitted of giving redress to the 3 serving under Lord Cardig an . hindc sai4 li Sir H. HARDING E conc urre d i n w hat had hi by the Noble Lord the Se cre t ar y f or t h e Colonies' 0$ the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at W 7 ,,, a r t i ra the, t accusation in the present case was against Lord 11 "; 00 4 11 ` than against Lord Cardigan. He thought the ata' t , ( l.' regarding Lord Cardigan was very exagg er t a • eve; (" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp.) Le r ; there had been a cabal in the regiment. "" -- 01 ea t " Cardigan joined the regiment in India, the first Ite a after his arrival he was assailed by the public p re icy bs Gallant Officer then referred to an attack wiji°,tated' been made in one of the Evening Papers, enoor' that upon Sir Henry Fane complaining to the e": - ft , " admitted that the attack proceeded from an ottue` "00 11th Dragoons. fie could show by var ious oth ee d 10 A did time permit, that Lord Cardigan was trot' r th ° manner equally questionable. •g ° I Lord HO WICK said that if proof were wantle ore, necessity for inquiry, it was furnished by what h a bor• d i stated by the Hon. and Gallant General,—(Hear' 't as With regard to the form of instituting an G in e tt n u t ' i r e / co ' ca l o o t o i ° , not been denied either by the Right Hon. Secretary of War, or by the Master-General of t . t. h d hire, mince. In the former tribunal the same mistake had an made as in the recent one, the matter was hushed la , • put an end to without being thoroughly sifted. sar' Sir DE LACY EVANS said no one 0 0 ' U ' r o.l° ' prised, when they considered how delicate the rne t ljete e ; that no miitary man had brought it before the tooled The allusion to what had taken place in India' ken greatly to strengthen the view which had been ta , a the the Noble Lord the Member for Northumberland, as not necessity for inqui d ry. Mr. HUME i I not blame Lord Cardigan at (440 he blamed the conduct of the officers of the Horse and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay). The vote was then agreed to. ced t°: The following votes were then proposed and NO 79,7151. for the payment of officers. 15,1.181. for defraying the expenses of the ".°).s t i y r A sylum. s for dir 15,839/. for defraying the charges of allowance tinguished services. 83,00('l. for the payment of general officer'• to' re ' 67,000/. for defraying the charges of allo waacelt dated and retired officers. 60.608/. for defraying half-pay allowances. 142,000/. fir pensions to officers' widows. . _ e c r ;ag al ' A vote of 42,0001. for super'annuattons an d ' d lowances was then agreed to. lea T ve he to C s r t A a l g ß a M i AN ron th N e io n nd reporteda3. progress , and ot.ai se uld 0 f Lord J. RUSSELL sa id th a t on Mond a y ho ffl i , tee ° I move the Order o f the Day fo r going into a Cuelijo'Or''. , Supply, when he hoped the Master-General of . e a. „ nance would be able to move the Ordnance E'ttilclarlif • Col. SIBTHORP inquired of the Uncle" - pol sG for the Home Department whether a get-Atoll° , Vizard was appointed Solicitor for the Hom e -office' Mr. F. MA ULE answered in the affirrnatiie. Apr, Colonel SIBTHORP then gave notice that oevarrsi!t day he would move for a retura •., f a copy of tat ' of' A i° for Mr. Vizard's appointment—of the al'"tha t of. salary—and the allowances made or payable to vidual. , ro ta rti Mr. FOX MAULE said he would bring uP -14 on Tuesday. yfe o4sl Colonel SIBTHORP gav:. notice ' t h a t Ou o rict% he should move for a return of the num ber of c°,oortc'' distinguishing the age and sex, who had beca tres3:iolBr beyond the seas during tle l a st s e ven years;_ alio 3 cou rtri' return of those who h a d not been sent out of the made up to the l a test possible period. ( J O' The Lease and Release 8.11 then pas sed throuli olalit mittee, and was erdeted to be read a third time 0 11 d o f, a' The other Orders of the Day were then diq": c nex t ' tFe House a:reoe ...:..__ _____ . _... , djou dat On 'CI •Ic until Mo______ o3 - , j3 , ro r i REGISTER STOVES, 3 ft. wido , -,; i . 01: Poles for Window Curtains, Is. 3d. per foot. Re 13 ,,,,' r stof e „, 8(1. per inch; elliptic stoves, 4d. per inch; reg'''',ome e . with bright fronts, bright and black - bars, bronzed ordioeteros Ioos. ; brass poles for window curtains, li- iveh 3 f eet ls. 3d. per foot ; 2 inches, Is. Sd. ; a 2 inch •le , for 1 1 9 ' .. 0 inches long, with ends, ring-, and b rackets, cool) etc' ti e-e i Catalogues; mfrs, contait;ing the price of eve*. . ar , iroo ß na li q ,o y N . _ - --- BIRTHS. 1 -. Ede r ' On the 27th ult., at Eton- 1 M• C. • p ace, Mrs . ••• at daughter. lis ter, On the 2d inst., the wife of W. Ilodg,es , Esq' bal and BURTON, d-strce.- a son. Wells-street, Oxfor Godfrey, Esq., MARRIED. 0. 1 ir. On the 9th ult., at St. George's, Ilanover-luare Or genus, Parsons-street, Itatelitr-highway •to Elizabeth sopa' (of the firm of Graves, Godfrey, and (11,:rtiet' youngest daughter of S. GNV '1 I (," Es q., solicitor, Gr° terrace, Camberwell. 3 11 ' q" DIED. terr ace' On the 3d instant, at his residence, Clarem o nt , , 54 Pentonville, Mr. Thomas John Smith, aged 49. ,t, boot t q l e Drowned, on the Ist July last, by the upsetti of Zealand' oh' the Ka'para River, on the west coast of New the ship " Anna Watson" lay there wind-bound on her4l . ol l ° from Sydney to tho. Bay of Islands, the 1 1n the Or*" M'Ritchie, late minister of Clunie, Perthshire , in , i .se p, •• sixth year of his age. On the 2d inst., 'at. Chester-place, Kennington,,,, , Esq., late of lwr Majesty's Customs, London, aged "':,,;, I"" On the 26th ult , in the Commercill-road, Ant°' Esq., aged 91. ,-, -- 10 ""'""--__—_ --- .„ r 4 v, • London: Printed and Published by MURDO Y % j o! 1/1 Nu. 112, Strand, at The Sun Office t No., l l, l2 lg4l the county of Xliddlesex.—Saturdap AlAren """ t .