The Sun. — London, England, 1819-02-23 00:00:00

t l e is that note c t the r esi• Inted tare, 01,9 6 )riVY rSIO S ' Vat° 1. )". ,rile And i d lid lie )lic air I eon sill r • e 31 '°n rould induce him to accept . of avy sato oat I (Lo ll i ei `'' the Privy Purse of his Alaj . e i ty l ,-_ , det-„1( - ' lecri ng•)—A s to the functions w oic . a iat, at a - v ed on him, with ell the melancholy eircum. , 'lt" attending it, lie would in any event . he r e PP Y t ° discharge th e duti es which his situation I Lit•l,,!tr.d neeessaiy towards his Royal Father an d . 1 R o yal eai ry. In the decision of this qiiestionjos aff ect . Highness was very anxious that every thing . I,:jectlng himself personally should be laid out o f titl e ,. But as to taking any part of the money 1 , 't of the private property of his Father.—( Heal, 117: 1 ' 3 : h ear !)--he desired it to he staled, that it 3a Measure to which, directly or indirectly, he I‘,lll never consent.— .(Loud cheering;.)— T he t o g u le Lord concluded by moving, as the fit st•Re litt:ti°n, " Th at i n l ieu of 100,0001. directed to trtsited out of th e Ci v i l List for the Maintenance 1 141,4 Windsor Establishment, the sum of 50,0001. . 1 1 , s atied for th e like purpose.'' . ktr• TiERNEY observed, that nothing could he of r e clear or more perspicuous than the statement f ol t he Noble Lord, which lie would endea"'ret,o view. On account of perspicuity, lie wouldi- pl a e his subject into three heads :—lii the first D t - ti e e e e ) lie would consider the estimate of the ex : ti ) sof the Wind sor E sta b l i shment ; iii ii s I,l` l, the paytnent of the Queen's Establishment ; la; B l.l t .!x in t, the constitutional anti 'most impor tan t hi i n of a ll, what emolument ought to he 4, t t ° the D u k e of York ? Ili relation th e to la ) , l) , Q int when he went i nto t h e Committee, he hii"t tha t a great reduction of the expenditure 4r h' consistelitly with pr o p er an d f a i r e oo con t o n. - Vi n h e Proc ure d ; b ut when he found that IS .... 6, 0 001. w 11 he required for Windsor (..,,iP3tie, I: said 1 °",( , , that the country it, li t d ie ,°t• 'the House was not now investip,:at i in : , altsiii'tw of Royalty, of which the House licit I - . i ore. He could not mit tkr.early enough bet Ili, ' a liii regret that the subject came this Wesqt b Wi t h resp:ct to 111, efore the House. seieotof p oint , it was now for the fi rst ! ile Itiat tei vest i,,,, Came before the House, o r i by errnerly all t h e Queen's servants were paid °tr. th e King, and never until the present , 'Asi r , --,, called upon to lay ls' p •-n was the House qii 4 , l 7 a f und for paying the of a deceased Iti te111... Instead of being paid because they were i hn i ,, te ,E. s tablishment, they formerly were lit,Willion to the length of their service. For " For kini: lt. he Could say, that he never stienio t r o e I i ti 's 1- ,asant time t h an that which was dedicated_.different i t 'ali l4e aligati on of the claims of the daft 1. 41 is :,, co nnected with her late Majesty's e.sta atthi-ient, some of whom were of illustrious 1, t ,tli ' ti tt nd many of whom. had been respectabl i e.— ts 4l e ;, 4g use . would recollect that no preeet en 4:l4;jeken brought forward to justify any such ! a s e,l ','Y Parliament. Among the objects pro 'it:' I °l' receiving a share of the fund to be tie- Re •Ittl b . different persons who t t y Parliament,- were ~,li ie k d AdministratiOn, corn kit' eyssa r y to.a pac e , he i , e t persons unconnected and discordant. P aaii i i, ° b.jects of relief were like the young e a % 1 6 01 1 ,: ° which would raise a shilling from . 11 (1.4.- / , 4 %and put it, on their guardian's order, into s; 111 1e et. blit which, ' when they came' into a ues:! ser e pssessed of extraordinary sense, and Itt rl -sl (4 • ilinv their enemies, turned bac . r tti "a ' ', 4ll ,d er d i s is sa lied their own friends. In his opt -e4s l 'a whole salaries of-the Ladies was tme itit 41. 4 • •ntained that they should ha ve 7 1. : r: B l l4 t rl a d s 171 e n i l e a l l igt length of their services . requited. jib t, .of these case s . there were instances of ° l 4 7 In the Committee. He was now come ‘ii nisit • ii rd point, on which he had att,ended v 4 1 t: lee .1 ( ile elegant declamation of the Noble ,iridt:tlle) t t voi l ild,:;by maintaining his proposl - I : l nvi t • hit Ise upon their goodness, and he ( II l e Littirati hadno part ok ? l f l the infamy of which the p e would attach itself to him. 1 1 1 , 41 ;Z e ,e 4 1 alone by love to his Sovereign, and by S l l4. . Ins country, he would endeavour, by using t •T d iscretion, to offer to the house his senti ;" 1 13. 'n ti •' important subject. With respect ktitl%l.t-iileic).l:ttht.felrisapinlir) f the Noble Lord's speech, gal p part to the determination of his Os 4lghtiess, he was certain that . it was. wastlie ?tob„Dtloposed, and ' the manner in whic h it .s 11. ;;; /e ti, which his Royal Highness disliked a k li .141 a. whate ver Parliament voted, and from Liatitjtvei funds, t he proudest Royal Duke in Eng- N i t) ght think worthy his acceptant*. He "ti t‘• en the deavoor to lay before th e H ouse an ac -1,4- r 1 money belonging to what was called 4 : t a i r t7y Pulse.. In doing which he would have Itii(fie attention ot the House to the , construe -414 ef various Acts of Parliament, and would 144, Keret, by regular steps. What was the h il) iit Y ,, Plt ,e? By an Act of the Ist of Geo. 111. ); 1 0 , e " "An Act for the Settlement of the Royal i'ifi li c , ce ' t °P, and for the better Support of the ; 0 0 , 0 .6 lAgnity in these realms," the sum of Jel ty . 01: was given to his Majesty, upon his Ma illtlst4k ii) g upon him to pity all the..si.ilinsL, ,List Pa n ,'' .what is now called the Ci v i l tittli,ttc'd for ' defraying any private expetuli e Which . his Majesty might choose to make. , 14 e , l t " t n portion of the above sum amount trel'en to 4 53,0001. 'annually, was allowed, L t hiC l Was called the Privy Purse, But in ot o r egala t i on ParlianiEnt did not int er f ere , i t( re h:iug alone, with the assistance of the ed %ti t : 0 1 the Treasury, established it, In the ta, e n ef ,,llis MajeStY's teign this stint was iticreas -14th4,000/.; and it was not until the 39th year I lv ith .l • 4 r e . i gn that Parliament became acquainted been t iCe ptivy purse:—ln that year, a fund had rind teolleeted from the savings of the privy purse, ta kt r om the etnolionents' of the Duchy of Lan- Ca t i o t s Which his ;Majesty _being desirous of dedi- IN g to the erectio n of a Palace at Kew for the M: 4 the Queen during her life, and which would Ele'•ttliards__revert to the heir of the Crown, an 4 ie ri ,Y v aa passed upon that occasion, in which ,rl,,e'ton, was first made of tbo privy purse. His 44 ;1 sty was authorised to dispose by will of i lil at sa j in g of the privy .purse. He contended, t e 4 ,.. 'saved prior to his Majesty's illness might the tiedicated to any ' purpose, and even to tlioseese of the Noble Lord, if his Majesty Ibtant He begged to be understood that he l ott. tithe property authorized by the Law ‘'l t '! - 3916 hod 40th of the King. 1'• yed r • • In the l' °I. his Ma. ' • reign , when great ex etati jesty s ft, "ns we r A,,-rn th e 171 „,. e frn med of his Majesty's recovery , ttr. "iddy which so grievously affilasted htmt ' said it W 43 reasonable that the Privy Purse should be placed. in the, stare in which., it 'was anterior to the attack of the disorder. Would tl►e Noble Lord explain 'why provision was regr►i site it the Privy Poise was to continue, during lite ? If it was to continue, why was the Act ne cessary The L,gislatnre then interfered, and ordered that the Privy Purse should he placed i❑ the state in which he had left it ; and that no other charges should be laid ot► it, than what he him self hail laid. Then 'came the sad tidings of the confirmation of his Majesty's malady, and then Parliament ►vas r•r quir,d to regulate anew the Privy Purse. Then the Act of the 52d Geo. passed, amending and altering the former. Three Commissioners were appointed, it, whose hands his Majesty's property was vested, with which Parlia ment had no ri : •.ht to interfere. Each of these Com missioners took an oath, not to disclose any thing respecting his Majesty's property, but as far as might be required for it.; defence. If even the Speaker or the Chairman were to send a warrant for them and examine than, they were bound to answer, that they could say nothing at all about the matter. This property, under tire Act of the 39tH and 40th, was not amenable to any juris diction. Bin tire privy purse was of a different species. Unit s r one of the Acts, an aoninal . sum of 15.0001. and another of 4,2001, quarterly was regulated to be paid. 'Jut' Act of the 52d, looking, hack to tine 51st, sets apart the annual sum of 8,5001. anda quarterly payment of 4,9001. which, with other regulations, raised it to the sum of 35,0001. per annum. In three regulations the steps of his Majesty were followed. It is now found burdensome to the cotintry, and a contraction of the expellee is required. In the early part of his Majesty's disorder, Physicians wet e requisite, and were in daily attendance, because their pre 'sence might he productive of beneficial results. But was their attendance now required as for merly ? It was required that Parliament should make provision for all these expel - lees, and was it not re,sonahle that they sincuid be paid out of the privy .purse ? The Hon. Member het e read part of the Act et . the year 1812, an commented at great length upon it closely did the Parliament follow this privy purse, as a matter over which it had dominion, that if-the Commissioners should exceed the law respecting the privy purse, they would I►ave been,liable to refund. But, says the Noble Lord, it you look to the last Act on this subject, yOu will see that we have no power over tire privy purse. So tar was this from being so, the Parliament meant, that where a reasonable growl(' exists lot ti►e application of money from 'the privy purse for the benefit of his Majesty, such application should be Made. Lung as would be the remembrance of his Majesty's Virtues, so long should they be anxious to give him all possible means of enjoying Happiness. It was not his ►+ish to applythe Privy Purse to the Windsor Establishment ; but he merely meant to say, that in recompence for the liberality of Pittlianient 4 : he hoped that his MA jest), would not accumulate money for God knows whom. 'When the Act of the 39th and 40th of his Majesty's reign was brought into the House, be thought' it :somewhat unconstitutional, and if the Noble Lord's reasoning respecting the Privy Purse of his Majesty was correct, the second Privy Purse belonged equally to the Prince Regent, be- Caine he acted•. in the .name and on the behalf of. the King. ,What he asked was, that suppose Par shouhl thick fit to vote bis Royal High ness the 10 - ,0001., that it should be provided for from• the Privy Purse.'• The Noble Lord - bad asked whom could we get to be the.custos of his :Majesty's sacred person, it nut the Royal Duke ? To this lie should ; answer, wiry not a Court of Equity ? If we are of opinion that the Privy Purse• of his Majesty should in that case meet the expenses, he had gained his object, and should say no more. He wished to know whether this point was conceded or not ?—As it was not co n c e d e d h e should beg leave to propose, that 50,0001. should be applied for the Establishment of his Majesty's future household at Windsor, anti that the _surplus arising from the Duchy of Lan caster, and also that the_ 60,0001. should, after paying such sums as were fairly chargeable upon it, be appliedTo - the payment' of the further cx pences which ,would be incurred in consequence of appointing a new custos. The character of the new Parliament would be very mina proved by their conduct on this occasion. Where the sum of 10,00014 could be saved to the country it was their duty to-take every just oppTlunity of con solting the burthens of the people . , if he could chew that thisthight fairly be done on ti►e pre sent occasion he would leave others to decide. where the charge of infamy should be retorted. He could well believe that the Noble Lord had never undertaken any buiiness more Iq ; he mint, also think that if be had been , left to the exercise of his own good sound discretion he would never have brought it forward. He might likewise arid, that be thought the Noble Duke, whom he sincerely loved, was to be pitied for the difficulty into which Ministers had brought . him. It was to be recollected that the Royal Duke was almost the only Prince of the Royal Family who had as yet escaped frinn the disgeace attached to the measures which had been brongbt forward by Ministers last year and: at other times respecting them. Did the Noble Lord suppose that the Royal Family Caine out of these contests as easily as the' . movers and promoters of them?— He believed that the Royal Duke would prefer not to accept of any thing, rather than to face the discussion. - Did . the House know what had already been granted ? The savings on the Privy Purse front 1810 amounted to 57,0001. His Royal Highness the Prince Regent had obtained 140,0001. for the payment of his debts, in addi tion to . 62,0001., 40,0001. of which arose from the Ducl►y of Cornwall. Besides these sums, there was Ei surplus of 10,0001. at his disposal. , — He knew that Ire was Warm, but when the Noble Lord came out with his rant, he could not refrain from treating ►he subject as be had done. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by declaring that be believed this to be one of the most interesting questions which had come before the House for a long time. The original motion and amendment having been read, Mr. PEEL said, he was aware of the disadvan tage to which he' exposed himself in following the Right Honourable Gent(than, yet he was anxiotos thus early to address to the I-louse a few observations before their attention was exhausted. Not withstanding the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Peel) still retained the same opinion upon this question with which he had come down to the House. From the time when the Right Hon. Gentleman had given notice of the nature of the proposition which he intended to submit to the House, there was but one opi nion which he could bring himself to entertain et it, so far as concerned the tenure of the property with which it went to interfere. So far as re lated to the right tf property it was a flagrant violation of justice.--(Hear !)—So far as it con cerned the feelings of any Member of .the Royal Family, it s indelicate—(hear, hear !)—and so far as regarded the public interest, it was no More than a monstrons violation of public prin. ciple,iunredeemed and uncompensated by the sor did advantage proposed.—(f-Tear, hear, hear !) In discussing the ques'ion, however, he thought i! unnecessary to inlist on his side of the argu ment that which might be drawn front the rank of the Sovereign, and affectiou to his person. He was prepared, leaving these topics untouched, to treat the question temperately and dispassionately on its own merits, confining himself to that part of the question which went to the appropriation of the surplus of.the privy purse for the expellees of the Custos. The Right lion. Gentleman, All the conduct of his argument, had thought it ma terial to consider what was the Privy Purse. In his recapitulation of the valious Acts of Parii,i nirlit. opon the subject, he understood the Right Hon. Gentlemen to say that the Act of the 39th and 40th of the King was the earliest in which there was any mention of the Privy Purse—that in this Act nothing was sate] as to the amount of the Privy Purse, and that it was not till the Act of the 51st that any mention was made of the precise amount. Now this, lie maintained, was a completely erroneous statement of the facts. Was there not an allocation of the 'S s IITI) for the Privy Purse before the Act of the 39th and 40 ? If there was, and if it had been recog nized by Parliatnent, the Right Honourable Gentleman's argument must fail. If there was a distinct recognition by Parliament of the. right to appropriate 60,00 W. for the Privy Purse before the Act of the 39th and 40th, then that Act must be considered as putting the Crown in full pos session or a right to that sum ; and if so, any at tempt to interfere with it now was a gross vio lation of the right and principles of property. On these premises he founded his argument. Now the tact was, that between the Act of the Ist and the 39th and 40111, an Act was passed in which there was a distinct mention of the Privy Pulse. —lt was an Act which directed that certain esti mates should be made out for the appropriation of the whole sum at the disposal of the Crown, and that when they were so- made out, they should be submitted for the approbation of Par liament. Pursuant to this Act estimates were made out—one was for the sum of 60,0001. as the Privy Purse, and it received the sanction of Par liainvnt ; this was decisive. Therefore, in 1782, there was a direct recognition by Parliament of the amount of the Privy Purse. Mr. Peel then drew the attention of the Committee to Mr. Pitt's Bill in the year 1788 'or 1789, when a •regency was in contemplation. He_made a pat ticular re ference to the clause in which a provision was made for what was considered his Majesty's pri vate property, by an exception iii favour of the renewal of leases, &c. Provision was also made for any surplus which might arise in trust for his Majesty. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had remarked, that if the money arising front the Privy Purse had been diverted from its supposed definitive ohject in one instance, why not in more? —lf the medical attendants were at any time paid out of it, why not apply it to defray the 10,0001. for the Custos ? But the Hon. Gentleman would please to recollect that such a misapplication of it would be the violation of an Act of Parlia ment. If, says the Hon. Gentleman, you charged the Privy Purse sometimes with the medical at tendants prior to the Act of 1812, why not charge it also with the 10,0001. for the Custos in 1819 ? The Hon. Gentleman stated that he had already noticed that such a misapplication of the Privy Purse would he a violation of the Act of Parlia ment. The Hon. Member might as well ask why not have charged the Privy Purse with the 10,0001. grantedlo the Queen in 1812,-when Mr. Perceval brought forward his propositions re specting the Windsor Establishment. He had recommended the appointment of a Secret Com mittee to inquire into the state of the Pr ivy Purse, and to report thereon. 130 t when that question was u n d e r th e cons idera tion of the House, two Gentlemen, then MeMbers of that House (Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Adam), although always voting with Opposition, reprobated the appointment of any such Committee, affirming, that on so delicate' a subject they could not, on their parts, permit any inquiry of the nature then suggested. The one was a Gentleman deservedly esteemed by the Honourable Member (Mr, Tier ney) and his friends ; and the other bad long been the'admiration of every one for the uncommon brilliancy of his talents; and wonderful powers of eloquence. It' was to be hoped, therefore, that the Gentlemen on the opposite side would show their regard for such respectable authorities by voting for the original motion. The Royal Doke (York) was about to be i nveste d w i t h an office of the highest importance, iu addition to that which he now held, and the duties of which he had so laudably discharged. But if Gentlemen were ap prehensive that his Royal Highness would have too great power and authority, i hey ought to remember that Parliament had not left him alone in the exer- cise of his new fouctforis ; they had granted hint a Council, with whom his Royal Highness would always advise. The Privy Purse was plc,- tected as the King's ,private property by several Acts of Parliament. If it had been thought ex pedient to grant the sum of 60,0001. for the Privy Purse, he saw no solid reason for its reduction. If Parliament chose, in its legislative capacity, to order that any surplus of ,the 60,0001. atter de fraying the usual appropriations, should be in vested in the hands of Commissioners, to acco initiate as his Majesty's privoe property, that surely ougl.t to be a sufficient protection f or it ; and any s u rpl us cou ld not be diverted into another chauuel without a violation of the Act of Parliament. In addicion to the 60,0001. there was an equally good authority for the 10,0001. arising from the Duchy of Lancaster. Loth tunds, amounting to 70,0001. were then pri vate property to the King, assigned for his own uncontrouled disposal. It the Gentlemen on the other side assumed to themselves the power of diverting par: of the Privy Purse to purposes foreign to the meaning of the Acts of Parliament, then they might with equal authority order a trans fer of tne money arising from the Duchy of Lan caster to defray the salary i►►tended for the Custos. The Hon. Member, in elucidating the subject of the Duchy of Lancaster, made references as far back as to the time of Edward I V. when it was dis tioguished as belonging to the Ci own. He exposed the absurdity, besides injustice, of the Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. They ad mitted the power of Parliament . to legislate for tl►e protection of private property, but would not allow such a protection for his Ma jesty. 'lt was hard, indeed, that the King should he the only man in his domioions who could not n►aiotain his rights, although assigned to him for his sole use by various Acts of Parliament. It would be a curious anomaly to find it described—. " That whereas his Majesty's faithful Commons, for the purpose of supporting the Royal Dignity, had resolved to grant a certain sum during his Majesty's lire, now think it necessary to reduce the same." God forbid (exclaimed the Hon. Member) that our beloved Sovereign, when re covering from his indisposition, should discover that a proposition of the nature now before tlie House had been agitated in Parliament.—(Hear !) Mr. BANKS supported the Amendment. Al, though he confessed himself against the spolia tion of all private property, yet he did not view the question in the same manner as his Noble Friend (Castlereagh), or the Hon. Member %%Thu ha►d just sat down, IVith regard to the appro priation of the privy purse, he saw no difference between the Medical Attendants and the Custos. • It it could be diverted in one instance, why not in another The last Hon. Member thought that he had formed a very triumphant argument when be drew his distinction between the medical at tendants and the Custos ; and alleged, that as the Glace') had the allowance of 10,0001. a year, the Duke of York ought to have the saute, He bestowed many encomiums on her late Mijesty ; but saw no reason why she had such a sum allowed to her. With respect to the question now before them, he declared himself to be of the same opinion wits► the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Tierney) who had moved the Amend, ment. At all events, the sum proposed was too much. • Buc he hoped the vote of that night woul►L put the affair to rest.' These were not times for enlarging our expenditure. The, pressure of the times was too heavy on the people not to render economy necessary in every department of the State. He wished the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) would withdraw his motion. If he (Mr. Banks) rightly recollected, the Noble Lord was of a dit-. terent opinion about a week ago. Mr. PEEL explained. Mr. WZLMOT considered the prevnt not a cries• tion of policy, but a question of common law. It . was not whether we should give the King this or that sum, but whether we should grant to his Royal Highness the Duke of York the same sa lary that was granted to her Majesty when she officiated as Custos. The Hon. M,mher professed his independence; stated that lie belonged to no party, but that he thought it his duty to give his vote in favour of the measure. lie was a stre nuous friend to economy; but while, on the one hand, he was anxious for the relief of the coun- ry, lie was on the other equally anxious that here should be no violation of the faith of Par- Iment: Mr. B. MARTIN (Member for Galway) said, it was his intention to vote for the solid, substan tial' sum of 10,0001. a year.—(A laugh.) —lle was sure there was not one of his Constituents who would not thank him for such a vote. 1( thislnestion was deprived of the radiance whirls PArty lent to it, and were discussed at the West minster hustings, he was sure the voice of the people would be in favour of the Grarit.—(Loud laughter.) Mr. PROTHEROE said, be e ras of opinion that the arguments used on the other side of the House ►sere weak in the extreme, inasmuch as they did not take into consideration the peculiar state of the Country at present. He opposed -the Grant.. Mr, HtTsmssoN said, be bad listened with •the greatest impartiality to every argument that was admiced in opposition to the speech of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Peel), but he bad heard nothing that at all weakened the strength of his position The House were bound to weigh with a peculiar feeling the temporary advantage that might be gained with the hazard of interfering legislatively with the, security of private rights. ‘Vhen the disposition of the classes of the Civil List was settled by Parliament, and the Grant of 60,0001. was made to the Crown, that sum was at the same time well understood to be at his Majesty's own disposal. Were it probable that his Lthjesty should be restored to his health, would any man deny that the Duchy of Lancaster and the Privy Purse must return unembarrassed to his Majesty's sole controul ? The office to which his Royal Highness was appointed was next to that of the Regent ; and it ought to be recollected, that though our venerable Sovereiga was in a state of exclusion, in consequence of his lamented and long-continued indisposition, let Gentlemen consider how' they w ou ld act i n t h e case of private friends, and let them say whether, in a public point of view, they would neglect that duty which they would discharge to a private in dividual.—(Hear, hear, hear !) Mr. Hume spoke in favour of the amendment, amidst repeated calls for the question. Lord COMPTON was a friend to economy, where economy Vt as legal and practicable.. The legality o f eneruaching upon the privy purse, was, at least, doubtful ; and the Howe he was sure would never interfere with their good old Sovereign (whom all admired and loved), about a few ihoustiod pounds. MANSFIELD deemed 'economy indiipensible row Ihe prtssure of 411 e limes, and should theie- ire vote Itir the Amendment. 111 r. WlLioN,though be — would never be in• it , an tear► , it in c ially thou Idl o f h o f nized cor" ;Ma' lance ie b'