The Sun. — London, England, 1828-02-26 00:00:00

mittee for having so report, for had he been on that Committee himself, he thought he should have most likely followed the same course as that which they had adopted. He had to observe, however, that this, al though a local Bill, partookvery.largely of. ,a. public na ture. The. Bill was to enlarge the Dock already in exist ence, and those Docks ans public and. not private property. The trade 0f,.. Liverpool , had materially increased of late years, for when.he had the - honour of being first returned for Liverpool, the returns of the Customs did not amount to 400,0001., while they now actually amounted to four millions. It ave.s absolutely ne cessary to enlarge the docks, arithas it was a public, rather than a private object, whicla Wis sought to be attained, he hoped the House would tigree to dispensewith the standing orders, and allow the Bill to be brought in. • Sir J. YORKE said, that he could not help feeling souse alarm at an application to suspend the standing orders of the House; and, independent of this objection, he thought it impolitic thus to encourage the extending of such an overgrown town as Liverpool. Before they extended the Docks, they should do something to rescue the entrance of the harbour from the difficulties which at present rendered its navigation perilous. There were many parts of the empire, the trade of which had been diminished by the growth of this enormous town, the Docks of which were already five miles in extent.—(Hear.) - Lord ALTHORP said a few words which Were inau dible in the gallery, but we understood him to he,against the motion. Mr. HUSKISSON said that he would not contend against the practical knowledge of the Gallariti OffiCei . S - vho had just spoken ; but the question hefirrethe House was, whether they would enable the trustees to borrow a larger I sum of money, they not having complied with . the , stand ing orders of the House? If their prayer were, ohe re jected on the ground of the standing orders, it would he.tan tamount to putting the Bill off for another session. . It would be for the Souse to consider Whether:it miglit not be expedient, for the sake of a great public good, to enable them to proceed with works which had already cost one m illion sterling. If the House refused to do so, they' would be obliged to dismiss their workmen, in number between two and three thousand, and to suspend :their operations for h whole year for want of the necessary funds. —He would suggest that it would be better to let them borrow enough to finish the portion : of the works which which were in band. Mr. CALCRAFT feared that if they granted the pre sent prayer, they would expose themselves_ to constant ap plications of a similar nature, and thus render nugatory the efforts of the Committee of Standing Orders. On the whole, however, he believed it aould certainly be advisable to allow them to raise money enough to finish what they had begun,-but no more. he felt no jealous) , that other ports should increase rapidly . He, in fact, wish ed that many places would rival Liverpool, and had no doubt that London would still be able to hold its' bead up amongst them. . . The motion was then agreed to without a division.. Sir W. GUISE brought up the report of the Glouces tershire Railway Company.—Laid on the table. Mr. DAWSON brought up the report of the Bill for the Incorporation of the Dublin Steam CorripanY.' CORPORATION AND TEST ACTS. Mr. LITTLETON presented g petition from Chetider; for the repeal of the Test and Corporation . Arts. Lord Althorp presented a similar petition from Wellingborough, Northamptonshire. Similar petitions were presented from Chepatone by Sir C. Morgan. From the county of Brecknock, by Colonel Wood. From Marsley, 'by Sir W. Guise. By Mr. Stanley, from Warrington and other places in the county of Lancaster. By Lord Stanley, from Bampton, Lancashire. Mr. Baker, from Wickham. By Col. Powell, from Upper Grintead, Cardigan. By Mr. Dickinson, from Shepton Mallet and'other places. By Mr. Bright, from eleven Congregations in Bristol. By Mr. Pierce, from Devizes. By Mr. Easthope, flu= _Chippen dorf, Oxfordshire, and Broughton. By Mr. Cnrteis, from Rye, Grimsby, and different places in the county of Sussex. And by Mr. Majoribanks, from Hythe, Kent. SUB-LETTING ACT. 3lr. STANLEY presented a petitiou from Nenagh, county Tipperary, against tlu Sub-letting Act. The Hon. Member said, lie thought it his duty to state to the House, as he had before done to the petitioner , , that he . did not concur with the object of the petition. Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from Nenagh, praying for Catholic Emancipation. THE MALT ACT. Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the Maltsters of Burton-upon-Trent, against the Malt The Hon. Member also moved for a return of the number defaulters under the Malt Act, within the last three years.—Ordered. Mr. PORTMAN presented a petition against the Malt Act, from Sherborne, Dorset. RECEIPT TAX. Mr. M. ANGELO TAYLOR presented a petition from Durham for the repal of the Receipt Stamp Ditty, and concurred with the petititioners that it would be right to do away with stamps for receipts fot all surds under 201. Mr. BRIGHT moved for an Account of the Amount of Revenue received for Receipt Stamps during the years 1825, 1826, and 1827 ; also an Account of the Number of Prosecutions filed by the Collectors of Stamps, and for se veral other Returns connected with the Stamp Receipt Tax. _ . Mr. CALCRAFT said the returns for which the Hon. M em ber moved were extremely voluminous, and would costa consderable sum. He trusted, therefore, the lion. Member had some specific object in moving for each of those returns. 'After a few trords from Mr. BRIGHT, the returns were oreeml. PUBLIC CHARITIES. Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, that the expenses of printing papers were really enormous. This morning he had received the 17th volume of the Report on public Charities, which it would take a man his whote life to read. He thought the subject would be a very proper one for the consideration of the Finance Committee. Mr. HUME said that as the subject of public charities had been mentioned be begged to know whether the sub ject had come under the consideration of the Right Hon. Secretary. There was no good in appointing Committees ,at an enormous expense, unless their suggestions were at tended to. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that if be bad received notice that the Non. Member intended to put the question be had done, he (Mr. Peel) would have made inquiries which would enable him to give a more satisfactory reply. His present impression, however, was that the report of the Committee bad been referred to the Attorney• General to adopt such proceedings as he might advise. SUPPLY. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the order of the day was read for the House's re solving itself into a Committee of Supply. The SPEAKFR then left the Chair, and the House re solved itself into the said Committee. Sir G. CLERK could not conceive that there could b e any objection in any quarter to allow him to take „ account half the sum proposed for defraying the naval expenditure of the year. He should therefore move , that a sum of 2,208,281/. 18s. Id. should be granted on account to his Majesty to defray the naval ser vices of the Fear. Sir .1. YORIU conceived that there were items in the present estimates strhich the Committee of Finance ought to treat in a very inquisitorial manner. It was stated the other night by the Secretary to the Ordnance, that his Grace the Duke of Wellington had made con. siderable reductions in that department of the public ser vice, and that by those reductions he had not only in. .:Teased its utility, but had also stimulated the zeal of those who were employed in it. He trusted that similar redac tions would be speedily made in the naval department, with similar benefit to the public service. He should like to know why his Hon. Friend below' biro, who had so often played first fiddle on occasions like the preeent, and the music of whose voice he was happy to bear again from his former Aitnation, had again come forward to propose thee votes instead of his Hen. and Gallant Friend (Sir G. Cockburn), svho Lad been first appointed to propose them. He wanted to hear from his Hon. and Gallant Friend what reductions were meditated at the Admiralty. He wished to ask his Hon. and Gallant Friend what qtian it was determinad to keep in actual force. tity of shipping He saw that there was 800,0001. to lie voted this year for rimber alone. He W 34 sure that that grant might. and ought to be very considerably reduced. w h - h ad, at present, 110 sail of the line building and in ordinary. Di d ( lovetn _ anent intend to keep itp the whole of that force? The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had got the navy estimates for 1792 reprinted. Now, when he looked at the estimates LA. 1792, and then again at the estimates, for 1828, there ap pear to him a mystery which it would be painful to "travel. He did not intend to enter into the difference bets -ett the two estimates, further than related to the ships in - ei.linary. Iu 1792 we had 414 ships of all classes, and in I: •?.8 bad 504. In 1792 the number of officers and ' . t'ePers were 4,224, and in 1828, 2,780. Indeed it w ly irrpos sible to look at these estimates, as compared with .:.ose of 1792, without seeing the wide difference in the ea ; ,-t , e of the men ; 2,78 0 men cost at one time 105,815/., . lids at another 4,224 cost only 93,0001. He earnestly 4.. treated the Committee of Finance to look close at these i I,ings t 4 IQ lock most particularly at the cost of the man..r:(.,ture of shipping. He was not a man to war against authority, and he therefore looked, not to the- LOrd High Admiral, but the council who advisedbitd - ; and if they gave his Royal Highness evil advice in any hour, woe betide the Executive.—(A laugh.)—He was not in the House the other evening wen his Hon. and Gallant Friend, .:than' *horn there never had been a better captain.of a man of .war, had alluded,to the 50,00 Q seamen's jackets which - had been turned up.• These were charged 12s. 6d. to the sea -1 Men, and this lakhig them back left the country minus Lord knows what. In this matter the council had advised his Royal Highness to get rid pf these jackets, and the Navy office had flung the business from their Atlean shoulders Upon the feebler back of the Victualling-board. On these '504000 jaekets, there was, perhaps, 11; -loss of 19s. upon each, which by comparing two and WO i'n the Ordinary ihrtn of arithmetic, not perhaps as cleverly-is the•Chan iellor of the Exchequer- could cast it up, made a rood round sum. But,:," Oh," said his Hon. and Gallant Frithd, " we hate taken the seamen out of the hand of theJetm—the ,. poor tars were previously in the habit of going to these infernal fellows, the Hebrew Jews." I n t o *hose hands, then, - had he put them ? Why, he had taken them from the Jews to deliver them over to the Gentiles—. (a laugh)L—for the Victualling-office was to charge them 245. as well as 129. for these jackets. There was nothing so capricious as this system of clothing. Officers knew not from day to day how far they were safe in the official Pattern of their uniforms. By arithmetic a man might cast up his accounts, and know how he stood, but there was no arithmetic to page the clothing for the circle of a man's person, to regulate the rotundity of an admiral's belly—(a laugh)—as compared with the sparer shape of a inidshipman's. Lately they did away with the whole cut of the naval uniform, and for no purpose upon earth that he could understand. Why, it was only last summer, that at the Very best dinner be had ever sat at, at Mr. Speaker's, he (Sir Joseph) was complimented as the best dressed 'malt in: the room_ in his foil uniform.--(A laugh.) Indeed - he was ; and the compliment, if he remem bered right, came from his Rev. Friend the Speaker's chaplain. For 40 years had he been in his Majesty's naval service, and improvement after improvement, as it had been called, had been made in the pattern tif his coat, till it had been reduced to what they now saw, with hardly a skirt upon it —(Renewed laughter.)—Their coats were now reduced to trumpery jackets of the most extraordinary ap pearance ever manufactured. It might be very convenient for the service to shorten the jackets, because it was not always fine weather; but was it equally convenient for the pocket ?—there was the rub. Well, then, how long was this little jacket to last ? Would his Hon. and Gallant Friend, in the language of the famous Liverpool speech, the most celebrated one that had ever been made at any elec tion for that great commercial town, give him any " gua rantee"--(a laugh)—that this uniform would last a twelve month? Would he say it would not be penal to wear it at the end of the year ? What guarantee, or what pledge, would the Council give to that effect ? Supposing he went to his tailor to have a new uniform made on these principles now, he should like to know how long it was likely they were to- have influence? He had .said enough of the Finance Committee, and he hoped they would look to this his particular grievance, among others, in the Finance Committee. He should reg ret indeed that it was overlooked by the worthy chairman of• the Finance Committee, who was no longer Lord A., but Sir H. P.—(A laugh.)—Let them watch over these things, for it was a great fault in the formation of that Committee, that no professional man who knew the technical details of the service was a member of it. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN did not mean to follow his. Hon. and Gallant .Friend through all the extraneous topics of his speech, hut he must refuse his right of putting words into his (Sir George's) mouth which lie had never tittered. What he had stated respecting the seamen's jackets was this—that a stock of imperfect clothes was found on hand, which had been sold at l Is. or 12s. 6d., and contracted for at 9s. 6d. ; that these had been re placed by the introduction of a much better article for the seamen at the same price, and that a still better (indeed• the best) kind had been provided at 245. for such men as had pay to spare for their purchase—a jacket, indeed, for which from 40s. to 505. were usually paid at the seaport towns. As to the Finance Committee, he could assure the House that every information which the Admiralty could afford was at their service ; he had himself been twice examined before them, and he was ready to go again as often as he was called -upon, and so was every other officer in the public departments.—(Hear, hear.)—As to the present vote, all that was wanted was a grant upon credit, the same as had been given in the navy and the ordinance.— With respect to the pattern of the naval uniform, he could not give any guarantee to his Hon. and Gallant Friend how long it would last. Sir JOSEPH YORKE must always expect official gentle men to mystify . a.plain subject—but,he must again say, he was quite surprised that the Government, in the manufac ture of the Finance Committee, about which two of the Ministers of the King in the late administration quarrelled, and did such divers acts as would have disgraced any Go vernment, had not put upon it one, or two, or three pro fessional men, connected with the navy, army, and ord nance, who could. unravel the matters connected with their departments with technical dexterity. Upon it there was not a single great gun ; no, not even a pistol, or a patterera exhibited.—(A laugh.)—So that the abstruse details of . the three great services must be blinked, and no adequate and ready opportunity afforded of reducing their very great expenditure. Mr. Alderman 'WAITHMAN protested in the strongest terms against this manner of voting away the public mo ney without proper previous inquiry ; and this, too, at a time when, by the admission of the Government itself, the most profligate and unnecessary expense had for years per vaded their principal departments. It was a matter of sur prise to him, that Hon. Gentlemen should have boasted of the great saving made by the Duke of Wellington in the Ordnance, who had struck off 300,000/. a year, and 240 unnecessary clerks, when it implied so gross a reflection upon themselves for having so long refused to reduce this very branch of the public expenditure. This was a serious and grave charge against them. The Hon. Alderman re ferred to the last 14 years to show how recklessly the pub lic expenditure had been managed, although every speech from the Throne had expressly promised economy and re trenchment. The Finance Committee would, be hoped, do their duty ; but the House ought not to delegate its pri vileges and trust to any committee ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), when he had Censured him the other night for introducing the general state of affairs before a Committee of Supply, ought to have known better; for, as a disciple of Mr. Pitt, he must have known that that and all the \ other great men of his time were in the habit of exactly taking the supply as the properest time to discuss and revert to general grievances. The Hon. Alderman then referred to the financial state of the coun try, and contrasted the reductions made by Lord Castle reagh in 1817, when an alarm of popular insurrection prevailed so widely, with the present lavish items. There was a deficit of ti,000,0001. ; or 13,000,0001., if he cal culated the dead weight. How was that to be made up? Either by a loan, new taxes, or giving up the sinking fund. They must raise money in this manner, or reduce their expenditure; how else could the dividends he paid, or public credit he maintained? If Lord Cas tlereagh's principle of reduction had been carried on up to this time, 65,000,0001. would have been now saved to the cOuntry, besides the compound interest upon it. It was in vain for the public to expect that the Go vernment would cut down the estimates, as long as the House of Commons gave the money as it was called for. He remembered no instance besides that of the property tax, in which they had effectively refused the aid required by Ministers, and then soon the claim was relinquished. As . to the Sinking Fund, it was a great delusion—to bor row at 60' or 70 per cent., and to pay at 80 or 90, was the greatest delusion that had ever been practised upon a community. He strongly and earnestly deprecated these extravagant grants, and implored the House to do its duty towards the country, in resisting their continuance. Sir CHRISTOPHER COLE concurred in the regret that no persons of his profession were members of the Fi nance Committee. But having seen so much stress laid upon the comparison between the estimates of 1792 and later years, he begged to say, that such a reference was evi dently unjust. In 1792 he was himself serving in his Majesty's navy in the East. Indies. The squadron then was of nearly equal force to that at present on the same station, but how different were their services. In 1792 they had only to watch not quite two sides of the penin sida—but see the immense territory which had since been added to the British Indian Empire, or required the at tendance of the British Navy. There were the Straits of Malacca, the Mauritius, the Cape of Good Hope—in fact, the service was five if not tenfold as heavy as in 1792, if they considered the new stations in South America and. the increased force in North America to keep pace with the growth of the marine of the United States. It was evident, then, that what answered in 1792 would not do in this new .state of things. . Ile considered it a great loss that the names of no members in the army or navy were to be found on the list of the Finance Committee. Mr. PEEL could assure his Hon. Friend that,. in the fiirmation of the Finance Committee , nothing was further from his intention than to express or imply the slightest dis respect to the services of the army or navy by omitting the names of Members of either service in the list of that Com mittee. He could likewise assure him, that so f-tr from such a circumstance contributing to prevent the Corurnit tee from turning it, attention to the details of both ..et the fact was, that since its appointment two diiitinguished military officers, and two Members of this House, his Hon. Friend behind him, and his Friend upon die third bench, had been examined before the Committee at great length, and respecting all the points to which reference had just been made. In forming the Committee, it was necessary to select its members from persons connected with England, Scotland, and Ireland, and when the smallness of its num ber was considered, it would be perceived that it was by no means easy to PlLce - upon it all those members who had particularly turned their attention to finance, and whose assistance could scarcely be dispensed with. It was the limitatjon as.;tp numbers Which prevented !he in troduction of any 'members of . the army or navy on the Committee. tilt every military and naval man could atiend there; and lay before 'them 'whatever useful or practiCal information it was in their power to communicate. I-le,(Mr. Peel); before he sat down, begged to assure the worthy Alderman opposite (Waithman), that he was mistaken in susposing that he (Mr. Peel) on th e other night had contested his (Alderman ,Peel) right to enter at large upon the subject of reduction, because a `finance committee had been appointed. What he (Mr. Peel) said of the worthy Alderman's speech then, and which was equally applicable to his speech this night, was, that be could not found upon it any proposition for a reduction of the expenditure of the country. Alderman WAITHMAN explafned. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said the vote on the pre sent occasion was only asked on account. All the details of the expenditure would be examined by the finance com mittee. As the matter had gone before them, he was sure the HouacYwonld not object on the passing of the present vote upon account. Mr. WARBURTON said the formation of the finance committee had given general satisfaction ; but if it should happen, as it had happened in the Government, that the committee should turn out to be a committee not of this House, not of the country, but a committee of parties, then he (Mr, W.)'Wes free to confess that he would expect but little . good as the result from its labours. The resolution was then put and carried. The House having resumed, the resolutions were report ed, and - the report was ordered to be received on Wed neiday. THE YEOMANRY CORPS. On the. :bringing up of the Report- nn the Army E. timateg, - ' • Sir JOHN BRYDGES rose, and in a speech which was throughout almost totally inaudible in the gallery, con demned the late Administration for reducing the yeomanry forces of the country. He did not much envy, he said, the condition of the late Ministry. • It was defunct, how ever, and peace to its manes. He would content himself at present with applying to it the epitaph upon Sir John Vanbrugh— " Lk heavy on him Earth, for he " Laid many a heavy load on thee." _ _ The Hon. Baronet concluded by repeating his disapproba tion of the conduct of the late Administration, for not having made any acknowledgement of its services to a body of men who had been the patriotic protectors of their altars and their homes. Air. S. RICE could answer for the Noble Lord lately at the head of the Home Department, that in reducing the yeomanry corps nothing was further from his intention than to cast the slightest reflection upon any one individual in the land connected with them, or to manifest an indifference to the services which those corps had rendered to the pub lic.—(Hear; hear. )—The Governmtnt felt grateful to the yeomanry forces for its past services, but there was an ex tent beyond which that feeling should net be carried. Would it be said, that because a particular portion of the yeomanry, on a particular occasion, had discharged their duty, therefore the public should be. burdened with the ex pence of the entire body? It was a principle of economy which animated the late Administration in carrying this ' reduction into effect,—a principal to which, judging from his votes, the Hon. Member opposite had seldom given his support. But before the Hon. Member casts his censure so unsparingly upon the late Government on account of this measure, he (Mr. S. Rice) would entreat of him to in-. quire how many members of the present Government, new before him, would be included in that censure.—(Hear, hear. )—Because certain corps had been efficient in certain districts, was that a reason that these corps which were perfectly useless should be maintained at the • public ex pence? For several years the yeomanry corps in the county of Devon had cost annually 14,0004, and during the last ten years thsy were never upon any one occasion required to afford their aid to the civil power. This was a sample of the system which the Honourable Gentleman would support, and these were the forces for. the reduc tion of which lie so freely lavished his censure upon the late,Administration.—(Hear, hear.)—The reduction of .the yeomanry corps was effected by the late Administra tion, because it did not look forward to exist as a govern ment of force—(loud cries of " hear, hear")—because it did not desire to be a government of military strength (hear), but because it depended upan its measures and its regard to the principles of economy, as its claim to the public support. (Cheers.) By the late reduction a saving of two-thirds of the charges for the Yeomanry corps has been made. Those corps which had proved themselves a really efficient and useful force, have not been reduced. He (Mr. Spring Rice) was confident that this reduction would meet with the approbation of the House; and the opinion of the country, with the exception of a few persons who were pleased with the amusements of soldiery, and whose personal vanity was mixed up with the establishment of yeomanry corps, had been already pronounced in favour of the measure, as one of great utility, and from which no de triment could arise to the public service. Sir. J. BRYDGES explained. Mr. LITTLETON expressed his entire approbation of the measure, and he was only astonished that the Govern ment had kept up this useless force so long. In the Com mittee of Finance in 1817, he (Mr. Littleton) proposed the reduction of the Yeomanry corps. He was convinced that the public good was the great leading principle which animated the conduct of the late Secretary for the Home Department. Sir R. HERON was only sorry that the whole of the yeomanry forces had not been abolished. Lord PALMERSTON reminded the House that this subject formed no part of the estimates.—(Hear,) As it had been introduced, he was ready to take his full share of the responsibility of the measure adopted by the late Govern ment. By that measure a swing of 86,000/. a-year had been effected, without the sacrifice of any really useful and efficient force. Lord MORPETH said the Hon Baronet opposite had applied to the late Government the epitaph of Sir John Vanbrugh. Of the late Government it might be said, ai it had been said of Sir John Vanbrugh, that it had " earned the envy of the superficial, the abuse of the ignorant, and had inherited the well-founded admiration of posterity." —(Cheers.) Mr. PEEL said, upon every occasion the yeomanry had distinguished itself for the public good ; it had always me rited and received the approbation of the country ; and the same disposition still pervaded the body at large to con tribute its exertions whenever necessary in future.— One expression which had fallen from the Hon. Member op.. posite (Mr. S. Rice) deserved notice. He said, that the late Government did not wish to be considered a Govern ment of force. The only yeomanry corps which have not been reduced, are those in the manufacturing districts. They were retained there by the late Government under the impression that their services might hereafter be re quired to repress some sudden emotions ; and surely the Hon. Member would not mean to say that in these coun ties the Government should be considered one of foree, or one that manifested a disposition to act against its fellow citizens? The expression no doubt had fallen hastily from the Hon. Member, and was one to which upon mature re flection he would not have given utterance. The Report on the Army Estimates was then brought up, and read. Qn the Resolution, that 91,000 men be kept up as the land-forces for the year, being put, Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose, and moved as an amendment that only 80,000 he voted. Mr. N. CALVERT said, as long as Ireland was kept in its present state, he did not see how they could effect a further reduction in the military force. Let them first pass laws to tranquillize Ireland, and then talk of reducing the army. They were beginning at the wrong end. Lord ALTHORP rose to explain why, upon this occa sion, for the first time he believed, he should vote against the worthy Alderman. They were at present called upon only to vote the estimates for six months, which were abso lutely necessary, and nothing which passed now pledged any man to a particular line of conduct hereafter.— (Hear.)—He trusted that in the Finance Committee they should be able to reduce the military establishment of the country. In the existing state of their foreign relations, he did not think that the force specified in these estimates was too much to be granted to Ministers for a period of six months.—(Hear.) - • Mr. Alderman WAITHAIAN said, the existence of the Finance Committee had been opposed as an objection to his amendment. In 1817, a reduction of 10,000 men was ef fected, and it was not objected to by Lord Castlereagh, because a Finance Committee had been appointed at the same time. The House was called upon to make every effort to reduce the expenditure of the country. He should not press his amendment to a division. Mr. SYKES' wished to explain his motives for voting for this amendment on a former' night, He did not see any reason why the reduction should be postponed on 'account of the appointment of the Finance Committee. When that Committee should make its report, the Session would probably be near' its close, the Members would be out of town, and under such circumstances, Parliament would be called on to discuss this most important question. ble was unwilling to vote enlarge a number of men as 91,000. Such a force was not required by the country in time of peace. They had not such a force in 1792, nor in 1817, nor ; even in 1793. He could not, for the life of him, see what were the peculiar circumstances of this country which rendered such an enormous force at present necessary. This country was not, he contended, in a situation to bear more burdens than pressed on it at present; and yet fresh taxation was talked of. Looking at the difference between the expenditure of the country and its resources, he felt, himself imperatively called on to vote for the reduction of the army ; and for that reduction he certainly should vote again and again, whenever it was proposed. Lord P ALMERSTON had, on a former occasion, stated, that he was ready then, or at any other time, to explain his reasons for the course he had pursued. He bad not at tempted to pledge the House for the whole establishment for the year. His object only was to introduce such a vote as would form the foundation of the Mutiny Bill; and therefore be wished the general vote to be postponed till the whole of the Army Estimates were before the House. It was said that he had given no time for discus sion ; but he would ask, bow could he bring on a general discussion until the Finance Committee had ex amined into the subject, and reported on it in detail ? Sir J. YORKE thought that the discussion of the finan cial state of the country was at this moment extremely im portant ; and he conceived that the present was as fit a time as any other for entering on it.—(Hear.) He doubt ed very much whether the Finance Committee would bring their labours to a conclusion very speedily. He was a friend to economy, but when the Hon. Alderman suggested that ono-ninth of the military force should be lopped off, he could not view it as a statesmanlike suggestion. If the state-paper which had appeared this day were true, and not a stock-jobbing document,—if the Porte were indeed determin ed to go to work, and to do justice to that which he conceived to be an aggrieved nation, then he could not perceive how the military force of this country could be reduced. The Turks said, "It is no longer a question; whether a parti cular piece of territory shall be retained by us." No: they seemed. to think the point in dispute to be, whether they were, as a nation in Europe, to be sacrificed—whe ther they were to be doomed, with their families, to pass to another country ? In such a case be, as a Member of Par liament, would not support any proposition which, like the present, was calculated to embarrass the Government of a great nation. Sir M. W. RIDLEY observed, that the largest part of their expenditure was that connected with the interest of the national debt; and until they could reduce that, with perfect justice to the public creditor, it was clear that they could not make such a reduction as would satisfy the na tion. Taking this point into consideration, it was, he conceived, very hard to expect from the labours of the Finance Committee that which they could not do. Mr. WARD and Sir J. YORKE said each a few words in explanation. Mr. HUME expressed his regret that some members of that House should entertain any fears with respect to the conduct of the people. After a few words from Mr. N. CALVERT, the amend ment was negatived, and the original resolution was carried. Resolutions for granting 2,000,000/. for defraying the charges of the land forces of Great Britain ; 1,000,0001. for defraying the charges of the out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital ; and 753,5191. on account of the. expenditure in the ordnance department,were agreedto, without observation. Lord PALMERSTON obtained leave to bring in a Bill in conformity with the said resOlutions:_ THE SUB-LETTING ACT. Mr. HUME presented a. petition from certain Catholics of Ireland, 'against the Sub-letting Act. Lord MILTON hoped, that whatever modification the House might think proper to make in the details of the Bill, they would firmly maintain the principle of the measure. Mr. BROWNLOW likewise, e;:pressed his approbation of the principle of the bill. Mr. DAWSON considered the petition as neither more nor less than the petition of the Roman Catholic Associa tion; it was the petition of the middle men of Ireland, whose interest it was intended t.► shake, while it pro tected the occupying tenant from their grinding influence. Mr. NORTH expressed his concurrence in the principle of the Bill. Mr. F. LEWIS thought the best course to be pursued in all cases was to assimilate the laws of Ireland as much as possible with the laws of this country. The best substitute that Ireland could have for a resident gentry was a well educated and industrious tenantry. The great want of Ire land was a connecting link between the orig inal proprietor and the wretched occupier of the soil. The Act, be thought was calculated to diminish that evil by improving the state of the tenantry. _ _ • _ . Mr. R. COLBORNE suggested that the discussion had already gone far enough, as they would soon have an op portunity of discussing the question when it came properly before the House. Mr. PEEL thought, that as his Right Hon. Friend was prepared to submit some propositions at a future day for the anaerulment of the Bill, it would be better to postpone the discussion until then. He would make no observation upon the petition or its object, for he thought the best re venge they could take for any intemperance it contained was to apply themselves as earnestly as possible to the im provement of the Bill. Mr. H. GRATTAN thought they were bound to at tend to the petition if they were desirous of doing their duty. The Act was, Tr! maintained, little better than a fraud. It was a mistake to say that the petition originated in the Catholic Association. Mr. HOME presented a petition from the Catholics of Londonderry, praying for the repeal of the Sub-letting Act. Mr. DAWSON would take that opportunity to repeat that all these petitions came from the manufactory of the Catholic Association. They had printed and circulated, according to their own statement, 1,100 copies of it in different districts in Ireland. _ . Mr. HUME justified the conduct of the Catholic Asso ciation. He protested that if he were an Irishman be should he proud of belonging to the Catholic Association. The petition was then laid upon the table ; as were two similar petitions presented by Mr. H. GRATTAN, from Kilkenny West, and Berris, in the county of Carlow. Mr. FAZAKERLEY laid upon the table a petition from the mayor and other other tradesmen of Lincoln, praying for the repeal of the Receipt Stamp Bill. ENGLISH `CATHOLICS. Lord NUGENT presented a petition, signed by the Duke of Norfolk, by six other Peers, English Roman Catholic Peers, 17 Baronets, five eldest sons of Peers, and also by 5,000 other individuals who professed the Roman Catho lic religion. They prayed not, as was usual in their former petitions, for the repeal of the disabilities which affected themselves, but for the repeal of the Test and Cor poration Acts, and all other Acts which affected the rights and privileges of Protestant Dissenters. He had the best authority for saying, that there had been no communica tion between the Roman Catholics and the Protestant Dis senters on the subject of the petition. The petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. V. FITZGERALD presented a petition from the Catholic inhabitants of Kilmurray and two other parishes in Ireland, praying for Catholic Emancipation, the repeal of the Sub-letting Act, and a grant of funds for the educa tion of the poor in Ireland. Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition from the maltsters of Bridport, for the repeal of the Malt Tax. BOROUGH OF EAST RETFORD. The order of the day for the second reading of the East Retford Disfranchisement Bill being read, Mr. TENNISON called the attention of the House to the Report of the Committee, which stated that it was no torious that .it had been a long continued practice for the voters to receive 20 guineas from each • candidate for his vote, so that when he voted for the two Candidates lie received forty guineas. When he had the honour of introducing 'this Bill to the House, he drew its at• tention to the part of the minutes relating to the ex tent of the fraud, and the outrages occasioned by the inflamed state of the town—riots which made it necessaryto call in a military force to subdue them. — now drawi ng aga i n th e attention of the House to h e demoralized state of East Retford, he begged to observe that it contained about two thousand persons, a moiety of whom were residents, and the other non-reSidentsofthat place. With respectto the main charge, that of receiving 40 guineas for a vote, to which the spe cial report of the Committee related, he satisfied the House of the existence of that abuse, and of its tendency on all occasions to corrupt the choice by which Members were elected. On that occasion the House was as well satisfied of these measures, and of the necessity of introducing a Bill of this sort, as he was himself ; and he believed, as well as he could collect the sense of the House, it would allow him to have completed his measure without further examination. But now these details were forgotten—impressions made were worn off, and therefore, he felt it his duty new to read this Bill a second time, and in going into a Committee upon it, he should move that persons should he examined at the bar, for the purpose of supporting the statements of the petition ; And the clause§ icy the Nil), His is tention was to abstain from observation upon all parts of this Bill, except as it related to the Borough of East Retford. The otherqarts he considered subordinate, and whatever the House might choose to do with respect to them, whatever it might think fit to propose as regulations for future proceedings beyond the borough of East Retford, he should be prepared to give his opinions on such propositions at the proper. time. For the present he thiiught it premature to enter upon such a discussion. In confining himself to the Borough of East Retford, he understood an objection was to be taken to the Bill in limine ; he understood it was to objected that the corrup tions upon which this Bill was founded, were corrup tions not stated to have taken place at the last, but at the antecedent election. This objection was to be started in the first instance, and was founded on a petition, presented on the Bth of February by the Bailiffs, Aldermen, and Burgesses of East Retford. That That petition set forth that the petitioners viewed with ex treme regret the introduction of the present Bill, that they understood it was founded on the evidence taken be fore the Committee respecting the antecedent election, that they would consider it a severe punishment, and that it would operate as a warning to them. Ample time had ben given them, if they had chosen to have taken advantage of it, of denying the charges, the foundation of the present proceeding. Not one of such charges, however, had been denied. —(Hear, hear.)—ln addition to the great body of evidence now laid before the House, the Noble Member thought that the House must take this petition as a tacit confirmation of all the charges that must be brought forward, and could not conceive the House would think it right to limit its punish ment to a warning. So glaring a case of corruption had been made out, that he felt satisfied the House would feel it imperative upon it to take such a step as would prevent a repetition of such outrage. It was stated, that these cor ruptions not occurring at the last election, did not form a sufficient ground for the present application, and that there was no precedent. The Noble Member appre hended that every case must stand en its own merits, and that he was not called upon to bring, forward precedents : if, however, he were, the case of Shoreham would be a sufficient precedent, and the riotous and out rageous conduct at the last Election, would form ample grounds for bringing in the present Bill. But he stood, and meant to stand, on what was stated in the special Report, that receiving money bed been a long continued prac tice. It was notorious that this had been the practice, and every witness to whom the question had been put acknow ledged it, anti that they themselveshad received the money. With respect to the name signed to this petition, they com mence with the name of Mr. ,Lee, a Magistrate ; but the evidence furnished by that petition was stronger than any which could he eftered at that bar, that for years a noto rious and regular system of bribery existed in that borough, and that the regular price paid to each voter, whether there was an opposition or not, was forty guineas. After the evidence afforded by that petition, in addition to the evidence given by all the voters who were examined, it was impossible to doubt that the sys tem of bribery was notorious, and had existed in the bo rough for the last 60 or 70 years. He understood that the ground to be taken by those who opposed the Bill was, that this system of bribery had not been acted upon at the last election ; but he was satisfied that upon the evidence the House would be satisfied the antecedent Bribery had re ference to the late Election, and was employed for the purpose of corrupting the great body of the Electors. In support of his opinion as to the object of the antecedent bribery he should refer the House to the evidence of Thos. Giles, a shoemaker and voter. In that evidence, which was to be found in p. 14, Giles stated that the inducement held out to him and another voter by the Agent of Mr. Wrightson to give their votes to that gentleman, was, " that they would be sure of their money if they voted for Mr. Wrightson, but that as to Sir H. Wilson:_ lie was a mean man, and they, would get nothing if they voted for him," that they asked what sum they were to get, and that the Agent gave forty guineas for each vote. Another witness gave similar evidence, and . another witness, also a shoemaker, for most of the voters appeared to be shoe makers, swore that he received the sum of forty guinea; after the election in 1818, and that Thornton, (Mr. Wrightson's agent) witnesses journeyman, had assured them they were to have forty guineas each if they • voted for Wrightson, bat that 'Sir Thomas Wilson was a poor and shabby man, and would give them little or nothing. Another witness, William Jackson, said that he voted at three elections, including the last, and that at each of the two former elections he had received 40 guineas, which was the understood price of a vote. That witness beard Thornton address the voters, and say, that if they voted for Dundas and Wrightson, they would get their money, and this Jackson also said, that he received twenty pounds, through his brother, and that he was to receive twenty pounds more to moke up forty guineas, the price of his vote, but that he did not apply for the twenty-two pounds, because there was a petition coming up against the return. The general tendency of the practice was, to induce the whole body to vote for the persons likely to be highest on the poll, and best able to pay the voters. To show that such was the ten deucy of the practice, he should read to the House a letter written by the desire of Thornton, the agent of Mr. Wrightson to one of the voters. The letter was in these terms : " Friend Joseph,—ln answer to your letter, I have most sincerely to advise you to stick to Pandas and Wrightson ; they are sure to be elected, come against them, -who will. They have a hundred and fifty promises, out of a hundred and ninety-seven Freemen with them, and those few Freemen who stand out have already long faces. You may read repentance its their foreheads. You are booked for Wright.son " He now moved the second reading of the Bill, in order that it might be committed, and that in the committee the different clauses might be explained, which would obviate the necessity of entering them into the other provisions of the Bill." Mr. P. CLINTON said that he bad been entrusted by the Corporation of Retford to oppose the Bill then before the House—a Bill which he objected to in principle, for he believed the grounds upon which the present Bill was introduced, had never in any instance justified the disfranchisement of any place whatever. In common justice, therefore, to the Borough of Retford, he felt bound to state the reasons which induced him to refuse his concurrence in voting for the second reading of the Bill. The ground upon which the House had proceeded in the cases of Shoreham and Grampound was totally distinct from the present. In those cases the House had the plain broad and intelligible fact, that the great body of the Electors had been legally convicted of bribery, while in the present case the Committee had acquitted the Electors of bribery at the last election ; but they reverted to former elections, which ought not to have been the legitimate subject of enquiry before them. In the cise of Penryn, there had been reports on reports before the House, a proof of the same system having been continued for seve ral elections, and the House could scarcely help noticing the continual repetition of charges of the same nature ; but the present was the first charge that had ever been before them, against East Retford ; and even this charge had not been made against it, when, if it had been false, its falsehood could be satisfactorily proved.— He called upon the House to look at the hardship of the situation in which the accused were placed ; no act of bribery at the - last election had been proved against them; the Committee had referred to the election of 1820, and therefore the accused could not have the same "means of defence as if the charge had related to the election just passed. There were not above eight or ten witnesses who had deposed to their reoeiving the eight end forty guineas ; and though their evidence raight be very admissible against themselves, he did not see how it could be received as against others. Those who bartered their votes were glad to represent such barter as being a common custom, in order to lessen the odiuib which would otherwise fall exclusively on them, and this was the kind of evidence upon which it was sought to found a charge of corrup tion against the Borough. It was no part of the business of the Committee to enquire as to whether the electors had been guilty of Bribery or not at any other election han the last; and they confined themselves to that the persons before them might have dis proved the charge, but the difficulties were innumerable if they resorted to a period so remote. The evidence came casually and indirectly before the Committee, and those who were interested had no opportunity of rebutting it. If that Bill passed, it would establish a very convenient precedent by which to disfranchise other boroughs. All that had been ;done was to prove that bribery had been used to at any election, however remote, and when proved, to bring in a Bill similar to the present. It was admitted that what passed at last Election, formed no ground for such a Bill as was then before the House, and therefore he hoped that the House would not now act upon what might have taken place at a time so remote as that deposed to- by the witnesses before the Committee. The Honourable Gentleman bad called to his aid a petition signed by certain persons, praying to have the franchise extended to them, and surely when it was recollected that some of those partits had given evidence before the Com mittee the House would pause before they gave implicit credence to their testimony. He felt assured that the House would not, at all events punish the innocent with the guilty, for even allowing that some were guilty, there could be no doubt bat the majority were wholly inno cent. He could Pt 4 1 P viotiog tin wbok 13111 one pregnant with danger, and carrying with it the.starnP of unnecessary severity. Mr. STUART was opposed to the principle of the Bill, and therefore moved, as an amendment, that it be read that day six months. Mr. N. CALVERT said, that the duty of an elector was very similar to that of a Juryman. He acted not for himself, but for the country ; and it was therefore ab surd that they should talk of their disfranchisement, as if it were a serious injury to themselves. Mr. GEORGE BANKES hoped there were other ob jects in desiring to retain the elective franchise besides the wish to render it profitable. He could not admit that the feelings of the parties interested were not to be thought of. Though the franchise was a burthen, -it ought not to be removed, if the parties who supported that ituirthen desired to retain it. He could not assume that the parties were guilty, and only deserving of punish ment. The witnesses produced to support the charge of corruption were not to be credited. Had they been credited, the sitting Members would Wave been unseated. He contended, the witnesses were not to be believed ; but if they were believed, they were not suffi ciently numerous to act upon their testimony. The evidence of 10 or 12 persons was not sufficient to prove that the Borough should be disfranchised. He (Mr. Banks) did not mean to oppose the motion, for he understood the Ho nourable Member (Mr. Fergusson) to pledge himself to produce more witnesses. He admitted it was a fit occasion for the inquiry of the House ; but if there was not further inquiry, the House might decide rashly, and deal unjustly.—(Hear.) Mr. Secretary PEEL said that if the House were this night to decide upon the disfranchisement of East Retford, and to decide whether the innocent should suffer for the errors of the guilty, he (Mr. Peel) should vote against the second reading. But if he understood the Honourable Member rightly, he only intended to have the formal acquiescence of . the_ House that a prima facia case of suspicion had been made out, which called for further inquiry. Me thought a case of suspicion had been made out which justified further inquiry. Upon those grounds he gave his formal assent to the second read ing, to give the Hon. Gent. an opportunity of bringing fur ther evidence to the bar. This was not the proper time to consider where the franchise to be taken from East Ret ford should be transferred. That part of the Bill which he (Mr. Peel) disapproved most of was the transferring the franchise to Birmingham. It would be proper to have decided to what place the transfer should be made, before the. Bill was sent up to the House—(Hear, hear, hear.)—but there certainly was no necessity for coming to that decision on the secoiad reading of the Bill. The House should, - however, first determine whether the franchise should be taken away before there was any consideration as to the place to which it shopld be transferred. If the transfer to Bir mingham had not been mentioned, Hon. Members would come to the consideration of tI4 subject less influenced by local feelings. Notwithstanding this objection, he would give his vote for the second reading on the under standing that further evidence would be adduced; but in doing so he felt some degree of difficulty, because it would be registered in the Journals of the House, that he gave his vote for the second reading of the Bill, under the impression that there was evidence brought to prove that the borough of East Retferd was so corrupt that it ought to be disfranchi4ed, and however formal his assent was, this conclusion must be drawn from it. Mr. LITTLETON was ready, upon the evidence now before the House, to agree to the . Rill, and he trusted that when the guilt was hrotight home to the parties, thiey Would not be alloweil to escape by any jesuitical evasion.- . : Mr. BATLEY opposed the Rill because he did not think that a. sufficient case of corruption had been proved against the East Retford electors. After a few words from Mr. SLANEY, the Bill wa read a second time, and ordered to he committed on Mon , day next. The debate was not concluded till twelve o'clock. • The - House shortly after Adjourned. WAKEFIELD AND FERRYBRIDGE CANAL- TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Ste—The navigation between Wakefield and Ferry bridge is, in a commercial point of view, the most im portant in the kingdom, connecting the ports of Liverpool and Hull, and giving a vent to the manufactures of Lan cashire, as well as those of Yorkshire, to the North Sea; by this navigation also, this peat znannfacturing district is supplied with corn from the agricultural counties. Not withstanding 'this, there has been no other cominunication between Wakefield and Ferrybridge, except by the 'Ayer Calder, I9i miles in length, very circuitous, and subject to floods, with all the consequent delay and danger, made navigable under certain Acts of Parliament - , vesting the sole right to the tonnage in the Aire and Calder Company, who, Since their first establishment, have received from. the public upwards of two millions in tonnage. After re peated demands by the public, the Aire and Calder Com pany,. . propose to shorten this navigation six miles, by making cuts at some of the most circuitous parts of the river, but still leering the length ISi miles, and a great part of the old river navigation remaining. Notwithstanding their proposal to shorten the naviga tion, they have the assurance to introduce clauses into their intended Act of Parliument, enabling them to charge the public for the whole length of 194 miles. This boon even they attempted to withhold for many years, and it is now to be set up as a miserable subterfuge to deprive the public of a safe and entire canal, 121 miles in length only, which the Wakefield and Ferrybridge Canal Company propose to give, charging tonnage only on the length of the canal. Is it to be endured that a body, enriched with the pub.. lie money as the Aire and Calder'is, should be allowed to impose d tonnage to the extent of s i x m il es more t h an their own navigation, and seven more than the canal pro poeed, by the Wakefield and Ferrybridge Company ? The country has only to be informed of this fact, and the public voice will resound with " shame" &ern one end of the kingdom 'to the other. Petitions are pOuriag,,in from all parts., and some of the most patriotic and , distinguished landholders and commercial men in the kingdom are ready to give their utmost support to the undertaking of the Wakefield'and Ferrybridge Cana/. Parliament has only to do its 'duty, and our manufactures will proceed to foreign countries at all seasons, with nearly one-half of the present charge, and the immense population of this great inland manufacturing district be supplied with corn at a like re duction of charge. I am, Sir, &c. A YORK SHIREMAN. NEW CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION. (From the Second Edition of the Dublin Evening Post of Saturday.) J. B. BURKE, Esq. in the Chair. Amount of Rent for this week 3141. 14s. Mr. FrrzstmoN read the Report of the Finance Committee, on the cpplication of the parish of Dun. garyan, for a sum of money to build a Cathofic Chapel. The Report fully recognised the claims of the parishioners of Dungarvan—but stated that it deemed it inexpedient to grant any sums of money for the building of Catholic Churches. Mr. O'GORMAN seconded the motion, and ex plained the reasons which had influenced the Finance Committee in their opinion, the granting under the present circumstances would be highly imprudent, and would bring on numerous applications of - the same nature. Mr. 01hVYER read 'several letters applying for aid towards building Catholic Chapels. Mr. FlTzstmoN said these appli cat i ons were f o ll y answered, by the resolution of the finance committee f t just ; i p assed; app a t t h i they had of cou rse ar i sen f rom t h e no tic e Th e Rev. Mr. FOGARTY, P. P. of Dungariall, said he had made the application, and upon mature co nsideration he withdrew it ; and he knew that the p e ople of Dungarxan would be fully satisfied. with the reasonableness of the refusal. Mr. O'Connell, coppinger, M r . Shi e l, Mr • in w members. rentO!D savnd subscriptions, Yer,andseverl otherand p roposedmembe r s , many handed ife A letter read by Mr. Coppinger, from the North Parish of C or k, enclosed 100 i. and proposed-1h names of Eig h ty ne w members. Mr. O'Coreittx, jun. read several clurchwar..' den's returns : Mr. O'CdrtrlELL had intended tO adjeuitt New Catholic Assotiation, and moved a" Sepio l it e Meeting" to talk a little polities. He foundqtiving b e too late, and moved a Separate Meets:Pr far Wednesday. next. . The Countess BATHUAST has recoratid from her recent, Moos: her Ladyship , took au ,sititst 'on Sdnday, for the first time since the re 4 stablishotteut at htr kvAlth, - . lMr2mm PR Bank Stop Consols, 3 Gov. Stoci Ditto, Net 4 per Cent Gov. Deb. Royal Can Grath' Cai City Ikb. Ot .Irrived. 1.1 I Br; I Bu 1 Da 1 Fla I Fr, u (lo 1 Gu ~~ TIIES ARRI This i 1 town arrival Tinkist manifest it is not address, the Tux of the p The pi happgu decimal igye as ful to b Wet AC ten, 9111 Was tVe tend it. 'We heard elution] vowed Metnbe claimer tained MING, } moiler picious to tak g to the siucTre tened but r iot Noble as any The bosorii of the a striki zeal of Mr. c not The night The cl UFe p friend! honor We eontai Howl fa etiol bands Rev. unifoi to the suspe intro( levity the a hims and' jilt VAC fort e