The Sun. — London, England, 1828-06-11 00:00:00

to observe, that scruples might he entertained by his late want of those established relations of society, without Majesty on the .subject of granting further - concessions to .which n o countr y could be great or happy—in the want of the Catholics, •on the ground of the s uppos ed interference la resident respectable gentry. If the people of Ireland with the pronisions of the Corenatlon Oath that would 'were at a loss to discpver the source of theiemiseries, they be thus occasioned. It bad been said that denehts .and 'would receive a complete and conclusive answer in th e w o rd ternples - weie entertained on thisesubjetf; c e rtainly , they Absentees." Feeling as he did for the sufferings of that had been entertained, fey, his tate Majesty; - NOW, if the I country, he would he most happy, if a Committee were question was to be discuised'idati; it was siekessary to look appointed, to take into consideration, early in the ensuing at the Coronation Oath, and See if the objections started by Session, the state of Ireland. There was one question of the'Noble Baron, on this ground, Were welifounded. The. great delicacy brought forward on the, present discussion, effect 4e-the Coronation Oath was shortly this-Lnthe King 1 tend to which he would not have adverted hall it not, been pledged himself, in taking it, to preservenwahee t hinhops introduced into the preseut discussion by others. He el and clergy, and to the church, all their righf aelen . ' l nn e n hided to *the Coronation Oath. -He folly agreed with an !eggs, and to maintain, "to" the, utmost of, hi e - power, the eminent moralist whet natniended that an oath was to be Protestant Church as by law established inthese . realms, received anima irnionnelite, and not anima suscipiente. and the'true profession of the Gospel. [A Noble Lord The question entirely was as to the intention of the oath. encleinaed, l' Hear, bear," with considerable vehemence, Much had been said respecting, the - march of intellect; ; but accompanaing his sheer with one or two emphatic strokes if the distinguished meet _by tvhoni_that oath was framed of his baud on the table, but whether (as was said) the could listen to the debateseof that -House, they would eons Noble Lord was the Earl of Eld on ,. or L or d Colchester, eider that the•hunaaniniellect,lead made very little 'gunnies °or ;situation in the midst of ' the crowd belOw the bar did since their;day. The most mature :end impartial consider not afford tie an opportunity of Observing. After the ice- /dime led him to 'the conclusion that he should bell Alis terruption, which occasioned a good deal of laughter charge his 'duty by opposing, the 'motion of the Noble amoug their Lordship, the Noble Earl proceeded.] If Marquis. . , concessions to the Roman Cetholice were contrary to the The Earl of FALMOUTH agreed with the Noble spirit of the Coronation O a th, concessions to 'the Dissenters Lords whO distinguished between the Catholic Association were equally opposed to it—and the reginut doom-a to the and the Catholic community, but he thought that decided Presbyterian Clergy in the North of Ireland was in this hostility to the Established Church was.comnion to both. sense a violation- of that engagement. But when the Ile.expressed•his strong dissent from the propositions on peace of the country wire in question, it was a little too the subject of the Catholic Claims put forth by Mr. G. much to come to the Coronation Oath, and say that at- Knight and by Mr. Wilmot Horton. The Noble Lord op tempts at it's preservation were infringements upon that polite had failed to • show the analogy for which he con declaration. A more unconstitutional doctrine than this tended, between tire situation of this country and the foreign was never heard of. He thought a more unfortunate States, where Catholics were in .possession of pailitical and blameworthy" doctrine could not be broached pew - er—and Le failed further in deriVing any substantial thah this, With respect to the supposed effect and influence advantage from the case of Holland, where Catholics were of,the -Coronation-Oath to preclude the King from con- admitted to power so lately an 1815. The cases of despotic ceding to Roman Catholics the privileges which they re- Governments bad PO analogy to ours, and rather weakened quire& Lie felt he- had trespassed too long on their Lord- than promoted the cause which the Noble L ord so ug ht to ships' time and attention, hut he was, nevertheless, anxious advance ; ours was a Constitution sui yener;s, and admitted to advert to something that fell from the most Rev. Prelate'' not of being tampered with like the political systems of the (the Archbishop o f Tuam) who last night spoke third in Continent. He regretted greatly the declaration made by order in this debate, and who was now sitting near the a Royal Duke, for the first time, of his concurrence with door. The moot Rev. Prelate alluded to the same unfortu- those who favoured the views of the Catholics. With nate Dr. Doyle, whose name' had been already so fee- their Lordships' -Permission he would read a short extract quently called in question, and proceeded to comment on from *letter which appeared in the Leeds Intelligenser of the conduct of the doctor With; considerable severity-=a se- the 2211 of May—it was as follows : .- verity that seeined to have been dictated by great appre- "In taking this step, the best security possible for the pension of the motives and intentions - of that individual. attainment. of the great object in view, a Constitution 1 'God knew, he had no intention to defend Dr. Doyle ;so far wholly Protestaet, was effected—the title, of the Sovereign ~...- from attempting to do so, he was ready to admit he had and all his'faittire successors, was m a de contingent upon ' done a great deal of mischief ; but at the same that it was their being Protestants—implying, of necessity, that they fair to consider that ' Dr. Doyle was not the only angry weitial, to.preserve a tide depending on. this express and Churchman that ever existed, not a member of the only sole condition, rig idly maintain the exclusive Protestant- . Chuiels in tine world that could -be excited to strong rein. ism of the two H ouses of Parliament, and of all the great gioue animosity by politic a l and theological discussion. It offices of the State.' Impressed with a profound conviction I was possible that some learned and eloquent person might of this constatutianal truth, the Earl of Liverpool, in die have talked of " a religion without a Church, and a Church cussing the Roman .Catholic Question in 1n25, declared to without a religion ;" and it 'was equally possible that the oh- the House of Lords, 'that if they granted the 'present de zervation 'night not have sweetened the temper of Dr. Doyle, manila of the Papists, it'would be impossible, because ab who, perhaps, sat down to revenge himselfon that pungent surd, afterwards to exchide an Heir Apparent to the Throne remark, by a tirade against the Protestant Establislimeut, if he should happen to be a Roman Catholic. And what If Noble Lords wished to take away the sting of such m en is the nature), inference from this position ? That the as Dr. Doyle, they would concede what was now de- Protestautisni of the Monarch being ncelonger requisite, mended. He (the Earl of Haddington) humbly suto the reason e .for withholding the Crown from the nearest mated that the Church of Ireland was not now safe nor heir of the Sttusrts now alive ~is abolished ! ! Am! what secure; on the contrary, it was unsafe and insecure—un- said Sir. Frarieis Burdett in his last speech on the• Roman - safe and insecure merely in crsn'equenee of all these appro. Catholic Question, as quoting an old and acknowledged rent defences and barriers, but actual causes of weakness,. dictum: of. English law? Cessante rations cessit ipsa et with which they had attempted to hedge it in. The Pro- lea! ! ! • testant Church was in danger in Ireland;' anti if the con- " .The principle of danger, or rather of civil war and cession of these claims placed it in no more danger than anarchy thus inherent in conceding tlit claims of the Papists, at . - present, they ought to concede them, and, by their is one which it has always been a priniiry object with British nanceeeion, do an act of justice to millions of their law-givers topers! Against. For instance, in ' the Bill or fellow-eubjects. But if their • Lordships took away the Rights,' the ,comprehensive Act passed in the second Session cause of irritation and contest • now subsisting in Ire- of the first of William mid Mary, and which emphatically land, one half of tire danger and . difficulty would be combines in onelaw. . (declaring their mutual relations and done sway with. Let them act thins, and show the people dependence ou each other,) every motive and purpose of the of Ireland that it was no longer their intention to act Revolution then effected, viz., Ist, the cause of James lld.'s cal the exclusive system—that it should he no longer nc- dethronement, namely, 'that he and his Ministers did en cessary fur the Lendable aspiratican of every talented and deavour to extirpate the Protestaut religion, and the lawi ambitious young matt of the Roman Catholic persuasion to and liberties of this kingdom.' 2d, the subjects' rights. be represeecl—and, acting time, their Lordships might ex.. Sd, the tender to and acceptance of the Crown by 'William Feet to eee the happiest results. There was one other and Mary, hichnling the Oaths of Supremacy and Declarae topic to which it only now remained for him to direct their lion against Popery. 4tin the limitation .of else Crown. Lordstaips' attention. He had heard with pleasure the acute nth, the debarring of Papists from the succession. In this and sensible remarks of the Noble Marquis ,relative to the great Charter, we repeat, of British freedom, the dread of feelings of the Roman Catholic Bishops ; and he had also - permitting ,any ground to dispute the Throne is repressed heard the observations that fell from the Noble Earl, which in these emphatic terms :—. eienmeti to him waif the Noble Lord had a tendency to give " And for preventing all questions and divisions in this way in Isis eopposition to this measure, if eatideti of its. realm, by reasunof any pretended titles to the Crown; and h ae rnkennees. At the same time there was one topic which for preserving a certainty in the aucceseioa thereof, in and tire Noble Lard adverted to, and in doing so, like every upon which the unity, peace, tranquillity, and safety of this e ther Englishman, he appeared to be roused at the notion nation doth, nnder God, wholly consist and depend, the . of acting under the influence of fear or apprehension, and said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Com:nous, do be frankly said he would nut be intimidated. 'Now, if the reed, their Majesties, &c." Noble Lord had taken the distinction-that existed between The Noble Lord, after "a. few farther observations upon physical and political courage and their contraries, he might the necessity of a Protestant succession to the Throne, pro. not have attached so much importance to the effect of ceeded to observe that experiments might with more safety any menuees that might have been resorted to by the Ro- he tried upon commerce or agriculture their upon tire cool man Catholic leaders. The most courageous man in the tial principles of the Constitution. world might act ender tire influence of a fear of a dopti ng a .The Duke -of SUSSEX.—In spite of the warning.] (* rein particular line of policy, from an apprehension of which I have just heard, I shall venture ,to occupy some the ill eonstemences with which it might he attended ; portion of your Lordships' time and attention, and being a aud, on these grounds, he might prefer another course member of the Royal Family, I feel called upon by the not exposed to similar objections. He called on the Noble situations I hold in the country to make a few observations. Lord to gay, whether there had not been times and cir- I beg to state that I-accord fully with what hay been said enenstancee that afforded frequent cause for such fears. by Noble Lords who support the other side of this question Why should the Noble Lord be influenced by the boisterous so far aanprinciple is concerned—all we differ about is the h a rangues of the Catholic Association? The leaders of means by which the objects we pursue in common ought the Catholics attempted to bully their opponents into con- CH be effected. I am particularly anxious, my Lords, not cession—at Least so it had been represented—and the to give a sileut vote upon the motion of my Noble Friend. Noble Lord, on this ground, refused to grant whatwas de- - I am, I confess it, my Lords, most aaxieus to . ' state my mended, thus nernsitiing the Catholic leaders to exercise views of this great question at tire present juncture.' • I an, au influence over hint ~..ts far as his negative upon this anxious to lay' before your Lordships the considerations question was concerned. Let Noble Lords resolve to con- which efterate on try mind, and lead me to 'a conclusion sent to the present propneitien, and there would be no similar to that which governs my Noble Friend in the fear but that they would be able to bring this matter to a motion that he has submitted to the' House: I shall not happy conclusion. take up your Lordship's' time by endeavnuring to prove 'what The Bishop of BATH and WELLS said, there were there can be very little difference" of, opinion, a b o utn_ two' points to b e en e e etained by their Lordisiiiips—tirst, namely, that the 'civil rights of British subjects are inalien whether, or not the Roman Catholics had any just right able—that by the great Charter there is secured to us the or c l a i m to what was now demanded ; and next, if they liberties and free customs of this Realer—that no 'man can had not such a t-,e,ht, whether we were called! upon on any be despoiled of thou without tire consent of his'Peers principle" of justice or cxPeditocy to grant ' tI4 privileges they are in tiiii important record denominate! she birth which th e y sought. There was a manifest difference be- right of Englishmen, and every sanction and authority is tween political and religionsetoleration-nreliginue tolera- given to render them operative and inalienable. . Again, tiod had re f erence to-the intercourse subsisting between' •the when there Was a revival as it were *of the principle's of creature and Ilia creator-'--politie.al toleration respected the the Constitution at the period of the Revolution—when the intercourse between man and man. It Would be a need- Bill of flights was presented to the Prince of Orange—on less waste of their Lordships' time to'attenvt to prove that behalf of the people-it was claimed; demanded, and insisted tine Roman Catholics were in Possession of unqualified on,- that all and singUlar the rights, privileges, and liberties religious toteration--euffice it to say, Roman Catholic of the people of Eugland should remain to them inalienably, places of worship were recognized by the law, andevery and fur ever. In its latter part, after reciting a preceding one was at lib er t y to wors hi p G o d a s his reason and hie portion of the Act, it recognises all and singular tine privi- . 1 conscience might direct. Burt it would be said, why was Ines previously secured by the Great Charter. History n ot political toleration equally conceded with that which relaters me but too well aware that there have been occa had been extended to the exercise of teligion? And why since when tire liberties of the 'subject may be restrained were not the professors of diff eren t religions beliefs equally for the preservation of that Constitution whence they were admissible tin all place+ of civil t r u s t, entelumetrt, and originally derived, but I see nothing in tire principles of dignity in the State? This was the question on tviaich the British Constitution to warrant the assertion, that any their Lordship'' were now c a ll e d to d e lib erate . If class of British suhjects may be proscribed on account of they looked back to le remote period oe our hi s t or y, from their religions. tenets. I know nut any principle in our the first faint dawn Of the Reformation e l, to the g i o _ Constitution which will enable one party to proscribe t rims period of the Re - oointion (a period at which were another body that may happen to be obnoxious to it— established the relieion and liberty of the country, see a still less do I know of any Constitutional principle which foundation w hi c h -he h o n e d Oght- petwe a rOck of Agee), will authorise the retention of penal enactments after the they would find that tine Protestant Church had ever been itesenniey for their continuance had disappe,aeed, F,nact e the parent of liberty , reli g ion, p eace, and hap p iness ; hut, ments of Oat description are from their very nature fein on the contrary, that whenever the natiou lied relapsed poeary ; and in' n country where Civil servitude is un into Popery, civil contention, discord, and anis/m.44, had knoWn, such procklr;eeeions ought to Cease, under altruist ;invariably followed. But it might be said, "tire Rareeri any circumstances in whieh that country might be placed, Catholics of the present day differ exCeeclingly from thine t I,in4 most especially ought they to ,cease, when the cause 5,3 preending times." He wae quite ready to give all the which called Ahem into existence no Larger continues to pi -M e e luxd commendations which they deserved to the hi g h operate. It is a maxim of law, that when the Govern talents and Anquirements of many distinguiebed persons _of m_ ent of any country imposes upon the will of a subject any the Roman Catholic persuasion ; but at the . same time he degree of wanton res t te i n t, men ma tter whether that Governe must express his keit opinion, that the Roman Catholic Anent be tine . Government of a Moriarch, a Nobility, or a Church was tine same now as it had formerly been. Of Po e ptilan Assembly, th e impositioie of thatwanton restraint is sire always re- tl beginniet r n t o! tyranny. In this View I am supported that church, it was cress of the boasts that ti r ,, da!" .o th m o y at ol Pr. Paley.—.[Here his Royal Highness mained the same—sempee eapn. She was unaltered and by t h e quo ..d t• tte utiliser, hut owing, to the Curfusion which unalterable. Whatever distinguished members of the Ro helot's: the li ar, • Ite 1 man Catholic Challis might feel inclined to do, such Power prevailed . _ did that c h urc h „l a i n , to exerc ise over 01,i,e minds of her which we were place d, all tire word* of the passage were if not au dible ; disciples, that they were frequently unable to naent it, that the appeared to be ae stated above.] it were only supposed to be io opposition to her 4,tf- It strikes me, t , e laws of which tire Catholics now seek rests. He might mention an 4kstaxee that had oe- Or repeal might have abeen very expedient et the time they were enented, and theirnontintrace at th e present day ex curved of this nature. It wets in theta. Tordships' re collection, that during Mr. Pitt's 'Administenenon, per trendy ileanee esary,. , inexped ien t,' and unjust. It has eons were sent abroad to collect the opinieres of the always been my .00nsene , o , , , ; e t st. three penril enactments f ore ign Catholic" Universities, with respect to certain sienelided alto ether nipn dl a n c , w _ :cu . of time. On this Lordships is n o en olyseve, that the • to „ inflec ted with the supposed 1; ;el ; poonc e ..ukience of the p*.aft your Lo pow • a e e • t i re Catholics were passed at a t i me when Pope. 'The answers of the Universities were faeoereble— Acts aga.r. re , e e apprehended from the 'Cad oti indeed, all that a Protestant State could desire. tt would great clanger '%'''' , di, ,s so biodir I _a be also remembered that the most dietinguished RomanCa- eniers ; they were nut hr I;P" 3 There % ig aml it is said tholice came forward with a Protest and d ec h ir n t i on o n the they ail, likely to proye in luting. _ 9 that tnen, per same subject, in which they annotmciel their opinion on hap,' ' enfficlent reason lb; the tealo,u . y existed, e f e, winch are now' !even t ,' :he question, in a manner se clear and satisfactory, as to aidse'very penalties Gf prenr . uni d inn Catholic times i t meet the wishes of all, and set at rest the doubts of th e egairuse the .Catholics, originate en a n d meet as they then STICBt timid. But at this time three Vicars Apostolic were supperted by Cetholic re J . 'Th e with foreign powers. en, .came forward, and said the people had nothing to do with justly were of airy intercour. e have' :loci regulations of the Church, or the power of the Pope, nry Lords, I say, hat ls,wever wise flsotne Acts might i itsul the consequence of this declaration was, that th e pe n_ b een a t th e time, it might have been necessary to prim t tion of the Roman Catholics; previously laid helot, Par- suc h safegoarde agaieet fureign intercpurse, seeing dint tiament, was withdrawn. It had been said, that to grant knowledge was then tire almost exclusive property of tine Roman Catholic Emancipation was the grata remedy for prinnliood, and seeing that the priesthood were for the all the evils of Ireland, but he was afraid thiit such wee most part either r eireieners, 'oe raised 'fienn the very lowest not the case. He was not insensible to the - evils under oitlere of society, iltlt(miglkt, therefore; tun withehatredut mime which Ireland was groaning ; but the sources of three e I show of reason, be. suspected of jealousy .and to- Were to be found in the want of employment...in the , wards their superiors. I think then, riy Lords, it ieper• -- reedy consistent with the view which I take of this sub ject, to admit, that, in the_Acts of which I am speaking, our ancestors took wise and by no means unnecessary pre cautions to prevent intercourse between the petnite of , this country and the Papal Power—for then all that power was at its height, and danger was apprehended from it, as well from the circumstances in which itself then stood, as from the peculiar circumstances and situation of this coun try. There did not exist then the same facilities for in ternal couounication, which we now so fortunately enjoy by means of trade, and through the rapid advancement of society—that trade to which we owe so much,' - Vas in the fieriotis of which I am speaking treated with obloquy, not fo Say dontempt. From the facilities of intercourse which that trade has' created, and froM the new class in society which it has called into existence, safeguards are given to the Constitution, of. whieh•our "etiCOst.ors could inwe had no conception. Put, my Lords, a new power has sprung .0,, of which our ancestors were equally ignorant' I allude to.the Press—that power of which all autho rities stand 'in awe—that power, which is the guardian of the rights of the people .and the dread of tyrants._ Stu•ely when such a power, against encroachments made dui , ing the dark ages by bigotry, has been able once to destroy it in this country, it will be our fault ifits return is allowed, and then we May, see what chance there eyer can be - of the revival of Papal influence in this country. .1 am well aware. that the times haVe peculiarly changed, and so too will your Lordships -he when I am allowed to call your at tention to What I must betleliCate in alluding to before some' Noble Peers--I mean the " march of intellect"—(llear, hear,)—a march which I admire and feel pleasure in, be cause. I ant sure if the instruction and improvement of the • lmVerordersot society he perseVered in, anti that the higher class•Cs ttike care, with the superior opportunities. open to thew, to increase their knowledge in proportion, the facili ties of the present day will tend to their elevation instead of that depression which is apprehended. In returning to former periods it is a melancholy refleCtion that in the times of Edward VI. and Jaws there should have Leen a contention between Christians of different sects, and it is lamentable to think that id the chronicles of our history, Anabaptists and Arians were burned and butchered ter the love of ,Q9d, Since those times, however, great changes have taken place, and it is a satisfaction to know that every nation , on the Continent, with the exception of Spain and Portugal, profess and practice other doctrines, and that the great principle has been secured by the tact great act, upon which congratulate the Noble . - Duke opposite, who was 'a pasty at the Congress where it was achieved, for giving • equal civil and political rights to all classes,withotit distinct-, tion of creed. Are we then-to be the last who were formerly the. first, in this glorious race of liberty —we, who when any individual was persecuted,.atforded him not only a domicile but permitted to hint the use of whatever profession he had been brought up in, to which noble principle Wu are ire- . _ lebted for that trade anti those manufactures which now 'to flourish, and render us the glory and the envy of Europe, and which I do most sincerely believe to be a divine recom pencr bestowed upon tl+:4 ‘.. country for her eonduct.--(Hear.) —I must believe then, thattleur Lordships have a disposi tion to go into that 'inquiry which my Noble Friend pro-. poses. Many Noble persons ask what securities are we to have, and to them I answer, are you . piepared to grant„for if yon are not prepared to grant,"what right have yest to ask for securities ? Those who ask this question may be compared to a man who should ask another " are you pre pared to give me your daughter?"' to which, if I were the man, I shook! reply, " in the first place tell me are you prepared to marry her ?"—(year and laughter.) I.do not tell your Lordships what you 'ought to ask, but if you de vise regulations which the Roman Catholics have the power to agree to, and 'you the right to demand, then I say that they will be wrong to refuse, and also perhaps that you will not be right in demanding securities to the full amount that may be &cum! necessary. But upon this subject, although Ido not perfectly know the quotation, , I will yet refer to the expression made use of by a Right Rev. Pre late on the occasion of the Test and Corporation Acts, namely, that "if securities can be made secure I can see no reason why the Catholics should not be entitled to what they seek." Itrihe Act of 1'793, and this I speak advised ly, an oath was framed for the Roman Catholics by Dr. Duigenan, who was consistent in his hostility to them,' and than whom there was no man more anxious to throw every difficulty in their way. This oath, I say, which is to be taken by the Catholics, is just the same with that declara tion with which we are satisfied on the part of the Dissen- term, the sole distinction being, .that the declaration of the Catholics is qualified by an oath. This, then, is one secu rity ; and if we are not satisfied with thi=s why, the result is, that we cannot believe 'them on their Oaths. • lf, tbsn, we cannot repose confidence in them, why, can they not take that oath with ease, which is imposed by the 30th Charles 11. ? This calls ine . to another part of the subjeet, , to which I beg to draw your Lordships' attention, namely, that in the Act of Union with Scotland;'where th a t G ir is particularly recited, and extends to Scotland, with , a n express reservation, " until Parliament shall otherwise de termine." In the Act of flnion with Ireland it is, I be lieve, different. Before going farther, I would ask whe ther those who paned the, Act of 1705, had any thing to do with the declaration of MSS ? The question is, were there any • Members of the Parliament of 1668 sitting at that period ? and I say there were ; for I looked par ticularly to the subject, and sew that there were. Look ing then to this question, as it bears on the Coronation Oath. I say also that the same reservation is made with . respect to that. 'Harley was then the Sovereign, ' far he was the Sovereign's adviser; and the very insertion of the proviso, until alteration should be made, necessarily implies the power to alter ,• for when it is said,' ‘• until Parliament shall determine upon an alteration," these very words re cognise the power to be vested in them, and that power also recognised by the Sovereign. I therefore say, that this part of the question it nailed here ; hut in arguing in this way, I feel, in my peculiar situation, that I have dif fered front one now no more, for whom I entertained the highest sentiments both of respect and affection. I will not now talk of that affection ; but, great as were my feel ings in this way towards the lamented individual to whom I allude, and much as I reverence his memory, I still cannot close my eyes to the imperfect groundson which he founded the declaration he once made in this House, which lie, I have no doubt, made most conseientionsly ; but this being my impression with respect to his declaration on that ocea sion, I feel that it is my duty to my country, to myself, and to my Maker, openly and explicitly to state my Own opinions and ti..elings on the subject. - I never sought 14 disciples, as • I saw my own way, on'constitutional princi ples, on which alone I have ever wished this question to be argued. I never canvassed any individual, nor ever at tempted to make a proselyte, but went straight forward on my path, without - inducing any other traveller to leaVe his road ; but WI met one going the same way, I think I should be hardly used if I were blamed for greeting him, and en deavouring to.help the traveller on his journey. The time may conic when the .settlement of this question will be ne crssary ; indeed, when it. will he a matter of imperious ne cessity, because, from what we know has occurred, there is no standing still, and we must either go thrd-ard or turn back. To go back will be destruction, and I appeal to Neble Lords who have h i ed experience, whether we have not tried the present system for-26 years since the Union. Yes, dur ing 28 years of Union, but of what kind has that Union been? A Union in name, a constitution -in name, but a discord and anything but a constitution in fact. lam afraid openly to state what 1 think, but I will say, that it' we had fibt 301000 soldiera.and-6,0110. poliee.in Ireland, we could not go on:---and then, indeed, to talk of the British Constitution !---(Cheers.)-1 do not like to shrink from avowing 'my opinions—l wish to tell them fairly and man fully, and not to shy the question, and, therefore, I sin of opinion, that all that has been done lately on this sub ject is merely the trying of experiments; and without meaning the least disrespect to the Noble Duke opposite, I will say that I do not like to see such experiments tried. Then, if the question is to be tried on the old objection of Catholics wishing to recover the properties of their ances tors, I shall merely refer to the answer - given by Mr.' O'Connell on hie. examination ,hefore.tlie • Ctimmittee.--- When he was asked what was the conditiOn of property in Ireland, be said I think it is best where it is ; and his reason when examined on it was, "because I have'botielit some of it myself, and should be very much averse to any measure that would take it away Iron me." •An4ther fear en tertained is, with respect to tithes, but the people know very well that if-tithes are taken away, it will only make their rents so much, the higher, and that they would Only be in the condition of a man who, in renting an estate, will take it at 7001. a-year, if the game is to be preserved, while if it is not to Sie preserved, he Will have to pay 9001. or 10001. I shall, therefore, concur its my-Noble Friend's Fretion ; and I do say, although with the utmost respect, that sontepiing must be done to settle this question. Dis cussion has been alsO objected to, but I cannot agile in the correctness of those who argpe in this way, for I ant enevineed that, far from irritating, it will do a vast deal af good. Indeed, I should rather say, that the Catholics bad too good taste to be displeased with any thing that has occurred in 'this debate, or with any of those who have op posed ie4, th j eti os i, hu e a lc , ce ll it d "p l e s r a it i a ah ps i. on fo e i , e r y e o r u so r na r o, a u l lto brought - .. a oraa,t.ps to tenn i bat with the Virgin Mary. linked I timid: the .Right peverand Bench for the. temper and the discretion -they )lave exhibited,-which hest' been worthy of the dignity of fhe.t,tation they occupy; and MakeS it a merit in any man to pay them that respect to which they have so well en titled themselves in the eyes of the country. I feel I have 1 a Iva y trespassed too long on the patience of your Lord- ships—(Hear, hear, Lear)--list I have been sniferieg under a long indisposition, which may perhaps account for the loose way in which 1 have ennveyed my ideas, and I shall now conclude by expres. , ing my cordial assent to the _ _ motion of my Noble Friend. I His Royal Highness then sat down amidst loud and eon- I fumed cheering . The LORD CHANCELLOR then rose—l feel myself I called on to address the House at this moment, from an apprehension that, should I delay until a later period,.l might not be able precisely and distinctly to state the grounds of my opposition to the motion of the Noble Mar quis. I cordially concur with the Royal Duke who has jest addiessed. the' Himse in his approbation of the tone and temper with which this debate has been conducted, which has been suitable to the dignity of this House, as well as the great importance of the question , now.under: our considera tion. If this were the first time that this subject had come for decision before your Lordships, I should feel rather di-- posed to accede to the proposition of the Noble Marquis. It is true his proposition is one but for inquiry, and iuttv , duced in the most captivating form ; but this, I think, u ilo n t tle m r ,eig tl h ie m iss , e ‘ n v t iti c i i y r , c ) u o n r i L st ( a o u d e s es tipi of . th F is or question,,,,l,ii,,,, re will collect that for the last twenty-five year, the subject has been again and again agitated ~ in Parliament—and how often the powers of the ablest men of the age have bee n directed to its examination—when sse advert to the. mea sures which have, from time to time, been submitted to the Legislature, and that all these ,successive efforts have failed—l do not think that we can accede to the pro position submitted to us, as we cannot believe .it will lead : to any beneficial result. If, my Lords, : inquiry be .k.isti tilted, and the result be unfavourable, it must, have a great tendency to exasperate feelings already highly excited ; and if, without ally hope of a successful result, we adopt that proposition, I know too much of the feelings of the rople of Protestant England, not to be certain that they will feel an alarm of the most fatal description. ; —(Hear, hear.) — Let me then call your Lordships' attention to the progress of this question since the year 181 S; for I wish only to advert to measures which comprised the whole bearing, of ' this subject. A Bill was then submittsd` to the other House of Parliament, with a view to accomplish the ob - - jects.of the Noble Marquis's motion. That Bill Was fram ed by a man of the greatest intelligence—a Man well ac quainted with Ireland, and who had the experience of many years.. He was supported by my late Right Hon. and la mented Friend, who gave all the aid of his great talents and unrivalled powers to. the subject. He also had. the support of the intelligence, knowledge, and legal experience of my ,Noble Friend (Lord Plunkett), now on the cross bench,.and whom lam most happy to see here. He like wise had the assistance of a Roman Catholic adviser, of great legal knowledge and acquirements ; and all those assisted in framing that Bill, which was brougit into the other House for the purpOse of accomplishing the emanci pation of the Catholics. It was there supported by the eloquence of Grattan, by the powers of my lamented Rt. Hon. Friend, and by the trlnseendant eloquence and reasoning of my Noble and Learned Friend, to whom I am now Wind- ing ; and in its progress those eminent individuals ex pressed an opinion as strong as can be conceived or adopted, that if the Mitten Catholics would not adopt the provisions of that Bill, fenced as it was with securities; they would no longer. be justified in supporting their claims. It went through two etages, and was accompanied with securities, mild in their tone, and such as this Protestant kingdom had at least . a right to expect, but it was no sooner known in Ireland, than the Roman Catholic Hierarchy .determin ed to do every thing they could to defeat it. They pro nounced it; as a Right - Rev. Prelate in ' this debate has said, a pernicious and destructive measure, and said that the Clergy ought rather to go to the scaffold than consent to it. Throughout all Ireland 'the•greatest excitement pre veiled, • end one of their advocates declared, if it was car ried, that the result would he a hopeless and bloody insur rection in that muntry. When then I find that. indivi duals of so eminent a description have directed their ta lents and their experience to a particular measure of :re lief, as best adapted for the purpose they had in view, and when they pledged their character, in support of it, and that the result was so received ix Ireland, and when all these efforts ended in total failure, I confess I am led to despair of our ability to carry into event any specific mga. sure which may be meant to be grounded on this motion. The next measure introduced was that by the Noble and Learned Lord (Plunkett) which it may be said was not fully discussed on coming up here, but that I do net think can be fairly urged, for although it did not go into com mittee, yet on the second reading it was particularly sifted *(.l examined. 1 remember well the apeechavhich w then delivered by my Noble and Learned Friend near me, who exposed all the dangers which must result horn it, and ' I theretbre am sore that the candour of my Noble Friend on the cross bench will induce kin to acknowledge that the lull was altogether unsatisfa.ctory. The next measure was that brought forward in 1321, by my late Right lion. Friend, to which another measure was attached to make it more palatable, with reference to the representative system of Ireland. The same individuals assisted the progress - of this measdre," and it teas met by the same spirit on the part of the people—l mean a spirit of indignation as to the first measure I -have alluded to, and when it came to this House it had the form of securities, although if certainly wanted all their substance. Of these three- measures I would say that that of 1813 was one which by'Po4sibilltf the House might accede to : that of 1821, inasmuch as it re ceded from the former, Was inferiOr but that of 1825 was one that it was impossible could be received either by the House or the country—impossible to adopt consistent with any se curity to the Protestant Establishment.—(Cheers. )---This, therefore, .constitutes the difficulty, because. When we find on one side any thing attempted to allay the fears of the Protestants, that is at once rejected in Ireland, and, on the other hdnd, when we disregard those fears, the measure is rejected here, wherefore it is impossible to anticipate that the measure of the Noble Marquis can, in any case, be at tended - with success. lam satisfied that, as I have already stated, _failure would exasperate the Wings of the Irish people, and the • very attempt will excite the utmost alarm and• anxiety in the Protestant part of the empire., •• In consequence of what has been said by the Noble Earl next me, I will advert to the effect of the revolution. of:1688. He has asked why the Reforrna tion sought not to be 'ascribed to an earlier period, andlio: doubt it was introduced earlier, but the Noble Lord also .• knows that the principles of the Catholics were then only. held -in sishjection by those of the Puritans. When the fear of the latter, however,• was done away by the restora tion of Charles 11., who was suspected, and justly, of Popery, then the hopes of the Catholics were aroused, and, in consequence, Acts were pa.sed, I may . say, for forming the Constitution. • Then it was that the law was, passed which excluderl.Catholics from office, and which has' riven rise to considerable discussion this Session—l mean • the Test Acf. Then it was, for the first time, they were ex cluded from. of:lkea, because as to seats in Parliament, they were-practically excluded long before by the operation of other Acts. Fat, from the favour they enjoyed with the Sovereign, they returned to their seats here, and though ,I will not -attempt to justify the ()erasion of it, then it was that the Act *lased for their complete exclusion. The 25th Chaides - 11. excluded them from offices, and the 30th of the tame King confirmed their exclusion from this and the other House of Parliament. Attetnpta were also made to prevent the succession of James 11., but they failed, and he, although a known Papist, came to the Crown, which, as we all know, led to the Revolution, and that to what I am about.to allude. I be e r to call your Lordships' atten tion to the declaration of King William, made on his em barking, ill which be promises that the laws against the Catholics should be carried into execution, and particularly says, that attempts had been made to repeal the Test Laws, and that the great object both of the country, and of his expedition, was to confirm the laws against the Catholics, but particularly the Test Laws, by which the liberty of the country would be established. Accordingly, on his arrival here there waa a meeting of the Lords and Collusions, and Williams took additional measures to carry his declaration into effect. • The Convention met, and they discussed the propriety of those laws; but it is sufficient-for me to show that I hey comidered those laws as an essential and vital part of' the Constitution. They were then, however, im perfect, for although they excluded Catholics fiorn Parlia ment and from offices, they did not extend to the Monarch, and in the Bill of Rights reference is made to the declara tion, and it was agreed that the " Crown should be alone held by Protestants."- Thus the system was confirmed, and, as my Noble and Learned Friend stated, was time Protestant Constitution completed. The Protestant Church and Pro testant State were thus formed by the Revolution,which was never the case prior to the Revolution. I may also advert to the Coronation Oath, not that I mean to contend that to be binding under all circumstances, but merely to chew the view with which it was received, and the object oldie men who framed it. Then it was. that the Coronation Oath was altered, and declared that the King war to support the • Protestant Church as by law established at that period, arid with reference to the exigencies of the country. And who were the.pereens who framed this Oath? Men who bad experienced the evils resulting from the attempts to iutroduce Popery into the country—ruen who were not bigots, but some of the greatest Statesmen, the greatest lawyers, and the greatest men, that the country has ever produced at any period. This is the system which they introduced, and this is the system under which we have lived, long, happily, and illustriously. And although I will not say that, under no circumstances, is au alteration of that system to be permitted, I also say that we boa! he satisfia*witirihe clearness and feline-es of demon stration of the propriety of any change. Ido not speak of one period only, because the same system was acted on twelve years after, when the new ,Act of Settlement was passed for excluding , theitiettee;erf . .?amen'. the Second ; and that poetesses the same character, and is governed by the saute Teeliegs; with the measure a 1698 ; and. I believe that, at the period of the Union, another compact to the same effect was entered into with the utmost possible deliberation and solemnity. Thus I have attempted to give an answer to the question of the Noble Earl, which, however, I think was much better answered by my Noble Friend. near tile; - who truly said, that it was to the Revnlutio, alone we owed the confirmation of the reformation, and the first existence of our Protestant Church and State:— We ought net to hazard lightly the great good, - the wane -- ecendant blessings eve-have so long -anti so much to our ad vantage and prosperity enjoyed.' My Lords, we are told that the:eranyfillitrof -Ireland requires us to yield, to the claims of the Catholics, and change, away that from which we Lave derived so initCh beriett.* put r ask, my Lords, what chatig'is - it that the tranquillity of Ireland requires? What is it th a t weean de to tranquillize Ireland, when I see that ti.m la itia t i l eLson ( s that will havetio t suffer i to c e, and endea voured to inform my mind upon 'the sultject, and the only conclusion I can eome to is, that there are agitators in Ireland, occupying a particular.'situation, esercisitlS sway and dominion over the people of that country, who telLuq that - they will nut allow it to' be tranquil until we consent •to the alterations they wish. This ques tion has been so repeatedly before us, and has been so fully diskussed in all • its bearings, that it is. im possible for us to shed our eyes to what they really want. They want; my Lords, to be admitted to - this and the other House of Parliament—they want to have equal participation with Protestants to all the offices in the State, with One or two exceptions. It is in this view, that we must now discuss the question. 'With respect to this House of Parliament, at present a Prottstatit'Houtte of Peers, they demand that Protestant and Catholic Nobles should be admitted on emeal termse No longer, then, would it be a Protestant House olPeers. With respect to the other Houte of Parliament, now a Protestant House of Vommons, they demand to he admitted on an equal footing with Protestants. No longer, then, would it be a Pro testant House of Parliament. They detnsnd to be admitted' to all the offices of the State. No longer, then, would it be a Protestant Government as settled at the Revolution. Weare then called upon to make a change, which I tun not prepared to say ought, under no circumstances, to be made, Inttewe are called upon to alter the Protestant frame of the Government in every particular, so that it would be no longer a Protestant, but a mixed Government. I do room berwhen, iu the early period of these discuseiont, these con cessions were asked as ahem ; it was said, " they will only admit a few Peers into the House of Lords, and, I believe it , was Burke said it, " some three or four Members• into the House of Commons." But, my Lords, the times and cir cumstances then have changed in a most extraordinary manner.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)—From whatever quarter those cheers may come, I thank the ' Noble Lords for therm It was said then that three or four Members would be returned to the House ofCom mons, but we are now told by those who know most of the state of 'that country, Ireland I mean, that the whole representation is in the power of the Catholics. This, my Lords, is a made a boast, and I could read, passage after passage, front proceedings, not of the Catholic Association merely, hut of different bodies assembled in different parte of Ireland, in which it is boasted ;—but I may be asked, do I place implicit reliance on the boasts of persons 'at such meetings as I have alluded to? I answer no, that I did not when I first beard of them, but when I recollect what took place after the last diesOlution of Parliament, I was confirmed in the truth of a great part of what I had pre vionsly heard. It is then, my Lords, no longer a feather in the scale that we are called upon to yield, but substan tial. power—a full participation in the Constitution. Let us, for a moment, consider by whom this power is. directed-L— -let us look, for a moment, in what manner it is swayed. It is supposed that the influence which directs that power, if what is called Catholic Emancipation were granted, would be at an end. Ido not profess to say that it would not—but I think there are reasons sufficient arising out of the present situation of things to lead me to conclude that the influence no w exerted by the Catholic Hierarchy in Ire land would not be less effective when backed by the ad mission of this sect to power than it is now. think lam justified in.coneluding that their influence-would be ex erted with much more effect. Look, my Lords, for an in shiny at the state of things iw that country,•and see whe ther lam without reason in myeanchision. Look, my Lords, at what I c taken place there within the last six that uncolitrattliable ' influence which the Catholic priest hoodor seven years. You will see the arrival at maturity of exercise over Ireland, acquired in a great degree from the measure alluded to, but greatly assiste4.by the elective franchise bestowed upon the people. 'Their influence is with the lower , chow of the population, and by theist they overhear every thing else that takes place in Ireland. No man there dares standup against them.' O'Connell, sup posed to' be the ruling demagogue,! directing • ,every thing by!his'ivill—if be in the slightest degree offends—rres_ paws aver so little upon the wishes or inclinations of the priesthood—you see him in a moment compelled to sub mit, to prostrate himself before them, and sign his recan tation. -My Lords, as long as Ireland remains in the state it,now. is with , respect to the obedience of the people to the clergy--as long as the religion of Ireland combines Catholic—fretned as it now is—l am satisfied that we shall never succeed in abolishing that influence. And so far from our doing what is now proposed to us having that effect, it will be giving to that influence substantial power. ' My Lords, contemplate for an instant the picture that would be presented to our view, were this measure car ried. Here is, a Government withee people like that of Ireland—active, zealous, enterprising—under the sway of persons possessing the political power which this measure would give them. These persons •too, be it remembered, so possessing power, being in no respect connected with, or. dependent on the State. This is a state of things tin ' exampled in history. It is a great evil, out of which eve must endeavour, some time or other, to extricate - our eeleeSe..—.(Hear. )- 1 --13tit quite sure lam, nay Lords, that thiS is not to be accomplished by any measure such as has been hitherto proposed. Every body mustaihnit, that if this state ment be correct, the situation of things in Ireland would be most alarming. In that case you would say, if we make any concessions which may be attended with the conse quences I have adverted to—namely,. a sway exercised over the population of .Ireland, backed by great political power, by a body of men unconnected with aturindepen dent of the Government—your Lordships would say, be - fore we make this experiment, which, in its results, may be fatal to our interests if nut well guarded, give us, at any rate, some security that the power we bestow may not be abused ; we must have something in the shape of security to guard that most dear of our goods, the Protestant Con stitution, under which we have so long lived. My Lords, at the outset of these discussions, the Catholics told us, in terms, that they were willing to give whatever s ecur it y they conscientiously could ; but now they plainly gi ve us to understand that no securities will be given by them,— They, were - willing at first, in promise at least, to do so ; but now, as documents I ant in possession of prove, they refuse to do so. I would read some of these documents, but.l conceive the fact to he so notorious as to render it needless for rue to do so. They now tell us thet they will receive nothing but absolute, unconditional, unfettered ematicipation. (Hear.) I am now r epeating, my Lords, not the language of the Catholic Association merely, but of the notes and resolutions of bodies of different descriptions as sembled;if clergytlie Clergy. and 1 a i ty lt h is av t e h p e r l e a , n id g e e t a i, g a e n o d f i, : w meetings hik, . in every part of Ireland — not bodies of the laity whichin merely, both the most inflammatory speeches have been made by mem bers of the Church. I say this without fear of contradic tion, and, do not think it necessary to advert to the docu meats which authorise me in making the assertion I have made. Those documents, I repeat, state that the Roman Catholics say that they will give no securities, but that they must have unqualified emancipation. They will have no compromise, for every thing is in Abeir power. Ido not remember the precise words used by Mr. O'Connell, but his language is much stronger than this—" in our bumble fortunes we held a far different situation front what we now do ; our friends wished us to accept the terms offered us ; we were on the point of yielding, but we have mole an effectual resistance, and now occupy our better station. Was it from the.moderation of our manner, the softness of tone in our language, that we have succeeded in ereiviug the there ? No; it was the boldness of our designs: , C it a , t a h t ol a i n cs y threats we held out, the language and tone we assumed, that placed us on the vantage ground on present stand." This, my Lords, i s t h e language of Mr. O'Connell. Now, my Lords, I will ask, what right have 'men like the Catholicteof Ireland to demand a participation in our Protestant Constitution, when they tell us distinctly which ac! _at they will give no security for its preservation. What right have men to demand this, but to demand it, I will not say a right, but to extort -it not as a boon as they did at first , rate by threats cetustitution—to admit thene to a to take place in the event of our going to a dmit ti P t e your Lordships disposed to yield to such threats as these? f w orf° a z i vi e l y 'ua i s ih iis a f i l t ni y koet l l lo a e t i gh s wor d's 10 e ?- • ( Hear, hear, hear.) Are wi Ar t e hi Lot the il p is a po le s . ci f l : h o e seat in this liouse, for the purpose of making laws for on these terms, this Protestant country? By the spirit of our Protestant Constitntion, every Member of this Trout* is tehelfles an adviser of the Crown, and all are bound to give the ° advice upon'ills:miatisii brOughti tsi•fli're it; in such. WAY will best tend to preserve the Protestant Church in it present state. - I repeat, that every Member of tide Hou',', is betnd,,to give . such advi c e is he m a y think best oda' l a ted tee, uphold the Protestant Church of this county NoW, can we, my Lords, expect that that would he: by. the Roman Catholic Peers we are called upon to adf into, the House? In the same manner, the Alembars the Piivy Council are bound to give such advice as . v best, maintain the Protestant Religion and Constitut' This was the reason that my Right Hon. Friend, to .wl I have already alluded, in the Bill 'of 1813, was -' of excepting the office of Privy Councillor, mid it was by a considerable majority. We have been told, my Loi that, all the great Authorities are against us—that we go' have. to contend with all the great talents 'that ever vocated the Catholic Claims. Talents as great, el°' quence as spleudid end powerful, as ever were conabint 4 fur the accomplishment of any political purpose, ha' beeu combined on. this question. Not content with tO talents and powers now . ranged against_ us, iefereod is had to the past.• The names of all the great -12 3 A who have spoken on this subject have been brought agai B l ' , us. Will you, it has been said, set up your judgment agiiiall that of Pitt, of Fox, and of all the other great luminerie which have spread lustre on the English c haracter.: and raised it to its present high consideration in forth! countries? But, my Lords, I say that the authority 6 these. illustrious names is, in the present state and poetur •of things, entirely in our favour.—(Hear, hear, hear. )- Every thing now turns upon the word " security." Satief, me that there is no danger to the Constinttion—to tit Protestant religion in this country—to, the Protestant Go vernment, by the admission of Roman Catholics, and I tv; l admit that no Member of a free Government ought to re fuse their admission. But when we find that security refused—which, in my opinion,. 1 think I have clan I, shown that it is, when the Roman Catholics want to le admitted to power without restriction--I say that we else the opinion and authority of all the illustrious indiviaals whose names have been reeved against us, in our favor.--, (Hear, hear, hear.)—They are not against us; but fe us.' —(Cheers.)—lt has been said that Mr. Pitt was an Ivo cate for Catholic Emancipation. Ile was so, I emit ; btit, in all his speeches made en that subject, in all bile' written, he had argued in favour of CatholicEinanciplais but with such securities and such guards for the Peoteant Establishment and Government, as would place themout of all chance of danger from the abuse of the power this Catholics would be entrusted with. In making this suer tiou, my Lords, I do not depend on the authority of s ported speeches, but am hot ne emit in it by a recent pa? livation, to which allusion has been already made 4 1 ' the course of the debate on this subject. I have reaso e m believe that this publieation - WAS made mainly for't? purpose of making known the letter of Mr. Pitt whit it contains. Mr. Pitt in that letter states in se mar.` Words, that care must be taken that the Catholics did n't abuse the powers with which they were to be investeei that the Clergy must be under the superintendence act oontroul of the Goverment. Now, my Louis, the Catholie s renounce and repodiate both these conditions; they wil l , not submit to anything of the kind, If then the object or thiremeasure is tranquillity, even if it be passed it is clear' the object will not be attained, for the iufluential perso o ' in Ireland will-not allow it to be tranquil except on their own terms.—(Cheers.) Mr. Pitt, it, the letter to whicl! I have referred, says, that the Clergy must be support ed by the Governmeut—they must have a pecuniary allowance. ,--I do not recollect his precise words, but I think he. says they Must have a pecuniary allowance under modal"' tions and restrictions. Now the Catholics are ready to re ceive pecuniaey grants ; but only in such a form and taw n ner as would render them entirely independent of the 60 " ye/enient. That WAS certainly not 'Mr. Pitt's intentiBT He could not have meant that the grant should be so mo d ,' fled and restricted as to make the Clergy the mere , IN , and slaves of. the Government; but it is idle teeamief B) : 4 that he meant tn make them so totally iudttendent of the Governnient, 'as to take them entirely front under its o °' troul. I say, then, my Lords, that I am justified in nil i aelertion, that, according to the present position of th iv e it Mr. Pitt, so far from being against us, is wholly for u se'i, (Hear, hear.) My Lords, in a mariner still more enle ba* ' tie than Mr, Pitt, did not my Right lion. Friend, the 'at Mr. Canning urge this point. I cannot mention hisl l B' ° ‘ without expressing the great regard I had for him. Fr ° " l , the first moment I formed a connection with 'line with o,°, exception of a short interval, arising from an eeeimlesitel mistake we were bound by the ties of the closest imietidal,l/11 ee-In.every transaction I had wialsehina. he pursued th B `, straight-forward and meanly course which marked his -clw ,1 'eider. The terms in, iThicli Mr. Cannistgeareeeeis chi!' opinion of Mr. Pitt were atill . aaore explicit and copion ° than these -of the letter Statesman. Ile said distinctlP that he would grant the Catholics nothing, unless with' the isiost ample securities, I do not speak of the terou; in which he expreaSed himself in the debate on the 1111 ' of 1825, but of those which he used ir. 1810. The se"' tiroents he then expressed were repeated by him still Mor e strongly in ISIS, and were reiterated in Wit in terms s ° , distinct as to ledee it impossible for any person to miitiAr his meaning. I state this with the more confidence, 1 : 1 ',, cause, in the other House of Parliament; on time eceal"'" of a discussion on 'this question, I referred to these sAn tl 'i merits formerly expressed 'by him. I was not coneradi"l!.) by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and therefore I consider; him as acquiescing in the statement I made, and any N° l ',, , Lord may satisfy himself of the correctness of it by o w ? ence to the debates of the period I have mentioned. ''';', Canning then is also, under the present circumstance' , 8 , authority in our favour. Again, Mr. Grattan, in talki ° ,', . of the provisions of the Bill of 1810, said that seculiti's were absolutely necessary. If, also, Ide not nmisinterpr,,,,g what was said by my Noble and Learned Friend 0 11 °I Cross bench (Lord Plunkett, we believe), he, althoug h 0 : 9 so strongly as that gentleman, yet expressed 1 1 4 . 0 01 1 j, coinciding in the opinion Mr. Grattan had. The N°.',., Earl who sits near use, too, expressed himself of a *Aur" opinion. The illustrious and distinguished relatiVe °,, Noble Lord on my left, Mr. Fox, entertained the sauce °Pi pion. All these great authorities, then, are in favo"L ° our view of the question. I will now, my Lords, u, leave to direct yenr attention to another topic. Alu° l4 , the other means which have been taken to i n fluence .e * even our national prejudices have b een appealed te. " you not, we have been asked, do that whichie done ie ot h 'i States of Europe? Will, you be shamed by Russia. a n Prussia? The 'example of those and other States ha s beef, Pointed out ; but their case bears no similarity to 00 , 4. --(near; hear, hear.)—There is not the slightest, not I most remote, connection b e t ween th e c i rcu mstances ° Is ecfilEibeste:rie:: this country ' and of those M whicb antlsiou has be r , made. No one can doubt for a MOinent that po we r may not be safely entrusted to Roman Catholic r i l e ; in - Russia, for the Monarch has only to Infer a w°,,e and every one of them would be swept from the face i : o the earth.--(Hear, hear.)--But, my Lords, ewes 10. t • s .10' state no per Son is allowed to enter into the reds* 1 e" tical state, or assume ;Loy Mei-whited dignity, eeitholii the previously expressed approbation ef the. Soveigigp• ap , is the veto which makes the distinction between this c ° ,...4 a try and that, for we are told that if the veto were insf s r e upon for the Sovereign of this country, it wOuld,crea t : it bloody insurrection throng,honalreland. How then i , . 1 0 possible for the advocates of the Roman Catholics,,,°o this fact before thein, to urge the example of Russia m e et us turn then to Prussia, which has also been pivot' 1 4 to us? Here, my Lords, I find the Catholics so suree o ;:a with restrictions of an ari p ii r t i i v •a i l l • e y ge n s at l ti vh re i , ch tli t a h t ey it ai it . X i c f; l 4. hie for them to abuse the to enjoy. Were the Roman Catholics of Ireland tit '''' ‘ t restricted, they might be entrusted with the poseeB4 °° l o.l any authority . they desire. Not, a Iliehop is appg'' tee there, not a parish Clergyman can officiate, without , iir sanction of the King - . It is the same in Canada. po i I visions against the Catholic civilians are astrine - ent , ;oo` may be allowed the use of time word, there, as in any 7 sic States' to which I have adverted. Besides, the C at.m , s ( l s ‘ ii v fi i a i i r s st t , a lle Catholics, as far from considering it e ars population in America has nothing to gain by a slraq,:e esstruoinfixotitlievesgiiii)vrectlit!azthyencif, t i ia: 4j would exert them sufficiently i s ffi , e e l c n v i e e t s i l ti t e o: r tl. e / P e r Cl e tt h ill l i o l k eo u n p s ' ll for that purpose. They now claim privileges for t h a ei ee e er it as a duty to exert their endeaf - 0 . have the power, they, y toleration to the Protestants. I am not influesemd 1 4 ;:yr feeling of illiberality in whit I say. I should be sorlosi one expression of that kind to escape my lips, bit I sBl ear it a ditty to take adeaptage or ey r t ee circumstanc e th a t would aid them in esttblefld °l e es supremacy of their Church. In conseqaence 01 . ..e feelings th e y i m bibe in early life they think c° sal :,e fire too great to accomplish that object. lint we e - o f told that the Catholic religion has lilidegOnF a gf „J change since these opinions prevailed. Are stS l 80 s. „'y of this, so- satisfied of it,—(llear, hear,)—as t " ul- r d the certainty of our opinion a ground on which to legiserlailie Let us look to what has been passing in Ireland (1 11,1 " o e a last eight, ten, or fifteen years—let us examine the s .l ) ; e e which prevails there with respect to the Protestant Chore, —let us for an instant hear the language they bold wit n h eili e gird to this country—but first let us look to th e en ", e y of the Catholics of that country at the last period rthBey were possessed of power. In the reign of James 11 ' e itY for a short period possessed absolute power and autlee 0 in that country. Let me m.lll to the recollectio n of a House how that power was exercised. Never w as then of 1 to ,woo dear( 10 4 , Idg, 11 ad; Parseention an arbi against the Protv but on mere r u mor of estate and edoca country --were inc tion. Their pro] obliged to _Ay for ,t the t,rnpea in wh it if the opportuni men tion it,nierely A of power. when i leiniteraie fwirit new, va,bich seems t country,' I think tl fiu. Ritually, for (I , i possession of por,we (Hear, hear.) "° religion is consider Continent ? Io th who are the greate , have the best mel theta movements " Piej , 4l _% Does not tl ceeu with the great titat Couatitution t Yieltrtts securities h wittits Ary Loids Palest,' called the C tys Association, h tie/tares for this, esl th ur t ^' eers.) t hese p aeon like tl e t p, the object it k 4 . 14 Pruposition of 1 arty beneficial re I hot endeavour e(1 toie to your Lortl,l istiriet, and n „ 1 s ubject, to state t ee ede t o the Pn` t4inly think that w (LAW ch{ieni front C4a feki I (10 uot se( say it witbuu !It'lt we are not lib 4,t4g 'to the Pr°P° near.) At,. Lord: , laltat which mtl.l and a P2l."` liiugdoto. D o yo IH) seceded to, trait tilit the object of I ' re atop short in onl %ranted, c an we tail , ia fallibly deman t " f the sp i rit of th 'a , ° tlting but If w to agi tir e h, e Ittillizine Ireland, tLing else from give us Inert 1 -1 ° Penal Laws w( of but the gi Witt, whi c h s h e wi o e of a iht:ll:44:jft-:'.:24444'4'444llihtli:l64::atekt7e'r44lll4;l7tiPint :'(l'4l6eQrflierontiticeineo()DrfateerAnhti be f or e t he se thenialeaßoeeetie :Inst)'tnonrftrtnhittuefii:ftvwttetwit:hhditrsulfp,ll:'eoie'oeitaietertt-tstelY:ietti • ► ° I . the real sentitne °Ntsidered J)r. Rentitnents, u 44 0u1d pay b ut 1 Li% su pported by 1%44 up to as 0. 11'614e , body of that 4 ' ,....1 444 the sentiu 41 Loa), an the 'a wain languagl (hutch Establislin 144 t alth oug h runt itdad as the road 44 ud truly to bit' 4a , th at the only ` h s6 et tant Eatablishm Church is in t It es/ the Protestor ht the such t l °l4 le of speerit is D:,, 444 1. Then, i:.an.....-make the' - sv -he cup agree to • ,'lt there will b e ILh,ed u "4 ek rch of s 'l4 Church. i ta nce , ssion, a" 1 -N tdisitin en t woi Aitt i k II Ire land. an end Ipu',: t h t o see 1.. e t ry d s c'p mediate(eb: 4 : 4 ) 11 I Iro t o ' au k e r; : it yt iee,u n ed il g u , : o r e A t l e :tiri a it n eaE ; )t i t r i fs e i i t git rl FlLte )o uu b t ree p tS e tr i 1) out of th e dil t! aika,s4, won base v those diffiel Lord PLUNK lee sentences. t,6 anxiou s , n ) y Woo fa in 114.16,1 thi friend night, stated ofraf‘ttl';'-- Ireland taibe granter ‘l i k t stated by p. ‘,,,,a,':'ll.lYl:lattitrryl'.....eL ()inn:lost:flit Gtr of I'arliamen ;. 11 con ,/Y deep and on: I°fl be set a' (7tatiro, rb?rp p oil'tY for that coot : I „ h ip concha:PP v„ y ) can t: ~ ti 4, 011 C p of frei' t notion o f ti t my' t U nless h e d o a ' , I(, ;ut ~t/ t atte ntioi! to ~,tI I Y Noble am] 14,;41, Y ulv a rt o f it was , under a re E to nt ,,,jne a secret I ''''Noble a n d L ea 4 - k uud the sea • • , ola e to 44941 tv4i r a Parts o f t h e all ‘it tined me w 4t4 " with t4t hol. ds 1111;it'llit:tth°0?1:1)13tb e h l t: u ulep s wld ' u i p o aeb n srltirie: (fror,4 '4;}' (4thank sides, ' d '4: hear (21ireli of Irelan (,(4uPorti•tit pa rt o Ittevoltition; rim"mi(if lk the llctio t e Catholic Ch in it ° roe Most