The Sun. — London, England, 1819-05-26 00:00:00

PARI,I 1 'l' . 'HOUSE OF LIM DS, MAY 25. An. Account of ;he Receipt and rixpenditure bf the Orphans' Fund and other Patient, from Hie 'Chamber of London, were presented by Mr. S ent f.—Ordered to lie it in the table. • , On the second remline, of Chace'fi Relief Bill, Mr. Jackson acid .tr. Adarn• were heard as Coun sel for the hays India Company, Petitioner" ►t+e. Bill, a'cd • kVarrett and Mr. l'olll►Ck for the Bill —The Bill was read a second time and committed. TRANSI7BSTANTIAT,ION. -• ...... The Earl curvy I►resentru a 1101 for AhiogiOing the Oath and Dodaratiort trgAiust Transubstantia 7 tint; AllO 't c 111 Vrierif 1011 of . Saints, enacted by.the 25th and 30to Charles 11 Fiji Lordship said, he introduced this Bill turder the curn . riction that this oath and 4chrratiOn merely related to a giror4 dogma, and had no connection whatever with the ( d urst ion of the King's sitprenracy arttl is heirg now on all bands admitted that his Ma je4,ty:,,Roman Catholic subjects ' e ntert”itred no opinions dangerous to the peaceol.socie,y, thought it iocurbbeut upon the _Legislature no long. r to sanction a proceeding yvbieli invulved any such 4:barges against theme. The 11111 't'ai rearra cyst time, and his Lordship ga‘e noti(e of his intention ru move' the second teadities'on Tuesday the Bth Jrine.—Thc Lords to be tuolmoned. CHAPELS IN S!'OTLAND, ` Tie irn viirl of I,AUDE{HLB: tlked.‘vbether any, pleasure was to come up to that llou , e, tor gr-ant sum of money for Building Chapels in Scot land ? j,,,,,! t'iscnu►►t NIELviLLE answered in the af- lillldll'r. ' The Ea 11 of LAUDERDAGE gave. notice, that he &mold oppose any clause in the Bill giving a dis cietioniry power to the Barons of the Exchequer, or the Gfinntis§ioners, to. awar4 Stipends out of the . Revenue. SILVER AND GOLD COINS. The E?iil LAUDEILDA.t.I3 gave notice of a mo tion for: ‘tiednesti3v the 9th of June,, for the at. tendaoce of the Judges, in order to put two ves tin'', t o th e m—first, Whether 'under the 14 h (.4corge 111. respecting ,the coinage, silver was a legal tender by , tale And,' secondly, under the 56th Georc 111. respecting the coinage, which of the coins, silver or go 'd, ~vas the legal tender? lie thought.it of importance to have answers to these,questions previous to the discussion of the momentous- subject which must shortly come be fore the UOUse.—Adjourned till to-morrow (this tidy.) DOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 25. . . Si, J. Ncyrr , a - r presented a petition from Dub- Insolvent Debtors' Act. ,Mr. WESTERN ,presented a petition from several inha bitants of the County of Essex, fur a revision of the indiscri minate severity of the Penal Law. Mr. WESTERN postponed his Motion fur 'more frequent Gaol Deliveries, from Thursday next till Thursday the lath .ItMe, on account of the improbability of a full attendance on the former day. top, EBRINGTON presented a petition from Bideford (Devon). for' rceasores for the more speedy Recovery of Debts, and for an alteration in the Insolvent Law, with a vie w'to tlit'protettion of Creditors. Wile Report of the Land Tax Commis:inners' Bill was agre , .-d to; the Bill to be read a third time on Thursday, June , iml%to he printed. Mr. WALLACE , bronzlit in 'the Salt Excise Amendment LW, which was read a first time ;to be read second time tilts disc forttortit. . • • The Report of Marquess Catnrlee's Telletship Bill was agreed to ; the rim to he read a third time to-morrow. The Seamens''Wagi.s Recovery 'Bill went through a Com. ; mittee,—The•Report ens received, to be taken into further consideration June 4. and to he printed. Mr. LUSHINGTON presented Acco i nnts of Bullioft or Coin seized tinder the Law ag ainst their Exportation. The'llonduras Murders Bill was read a third time and passed. The :Scotland Churches Bill was read a second time ; to be committed to morrow. Col. DAVIES moved for an Account' of the Value of Ex ports from Great Britain. and Iteland to Buenos' Ayres, for the last three years, and of the imports thence.—Ordered. GLASS. • Sir M.W.IIIDLEYatiked whether it was the intention the. Secretary of the Treasury to bring in a Bill for the Continn-, 8n cc of the :Net which expires hi duly, respecting the Glass Duties, zinti whether it was his intention to propoge any al teration in the Duties on Crown or Window Wass ? . L(tIIINGTON said, he should submit a Bill next week to the !loose respecting the Collection of the Dntiee,..— It was not his intention to propose any alteration in their amount ; but he shank' submit minor regulations as to draw backs. A' message from the Lords requested a copy of the evidence. on the Barnstaple Bribery Bill, which was sent to their Lord ships. OCCUPATION OF PARGA. Sir C. MONCK wished to know what course was to be taken as to the business of the night. If he lost that, veiling for a motion of hiS (respecting the cession of Parga to the Turks.) 'which stood, for this night, he, should Dot be able to. bring it on till thiS day fortnight, unless the Noblc Lord (Castlereagh) would at him to have precedepce to-morrow. His,His - motion was one which wonld least bear-delay Lord CASTI.EREM II said, lie should have no objection to the Holioor'alile Baronet's motion coming on to-mori•os, though if was dunhful whether the [Rinse would .be , inclined, to go into a discussion after two late nieits. After a few words from. Sir C. Nlinick, Mr. Tierney, and Lord Castlereagh, the notice was fixed for, to-morrow. RESUMPTION OF CASH PAYMENTS. The House having resolved itself into the Com mittee, tion. Mt. Alderman IIEYGATE, who was in posfes &ion of the House on the prect-ding night, when the adjournmeut was inured, resumed the discus sion. No man could more lainent the state of our currency than he did, but the remedy suggested in the Report of the Committee was that of which he could not approve. Ile went ov,r t h e history of the Bank Restriction Act—traced its effects up to the present' period, and contended that Bank notes were not no , v, nor had they ever been, de pr,:ciated..l If the Resolutitins byfore the [loose were cartied, it would go to contract our Cur rency, and this would produce great mercantile trIOMITHSSMCIII and distress ; for he contended, thai in the present situation of the country, the same quantity of circ‘dating medium could nitt by possibility serve to transact the business of. the coun t r y Khich te a s found sufficient in 1793. The zr,tements which the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr.. Peel) had made last night in opposition to this assertion was.fallacious, as be bad left out of his consideratiout the issues of the country Banks, which had 'neatly increased bettveen•the years 1793 and 1809. By some it was argued Oat pod bring now three per cent.. above the price of paper, all that was wanted was a reduc flop ot three per cent. on the l , oes of paper to bring every thing eight. Never was any orpiment more fallacious. \This he could show by A refer ence to tarts. The Bank,.in Novemb , r 1817, had notes it, cirrola , ion a mounting to 29,541,0001. Since that period their amount had been diminished bsr 3.000,0001: and the price of -gold, instead of billing tel that redocti.m, had become consi‘er ..ahly_higber than-it _was at that time. He was of opinion, that every argument founded on the price of gold, as analogous to the value of pa per, fell entirely to the ground. He therefore thought it would he most impolitic to regulate the issues of the Wolk, by the price of gold at all times. He refereed to the history of the calami tous year 1816, to show 'the misery and niischief .which most result from a sudden contraction of The circulating mediom. He for one should be glad if gold could he found to supply the place of paper, •bot • from as premature reduction or the number of Bank notes, he anticipated a repetition . of Ana diStleSS' of the year 1816. In the view which be took of the effects of a.ditniputi , yo O f is,sti, ; l; of the Bank- lie, was borne out by the evidence , of Mr. A. Baring, p'art of Which .he read to the House. Under the most favourable en cum. , aocesit Ns-fluid cause great etnharrassptent, Litt supposing the eosoing harvest to prove un favourable, foreign •governments to lie still tie goeiating loans, and the exchanges unfa vourable to this country, he was of opinion such a thlt•e -s tire would produce calamity exceeding - all that had hitherto been known.. 'l'hose .00ly would profit by it who had fix e d incomes, and these would profit in the, increased value of those in comes at the expence of the productive labourer. He proceeded at great length to show the evils which would reselt fIOM the proposed change.— ne . contended the sitsaation of the country now, was very different from what it had been at those periods referred to by the Right' Him. Gentleman, fOr then- we had not. a debt of 845,000,0001..n0r a revenue of 5.4,000,0001. This enormous sum did not think it would be possible to raise it !the plan in contemplation were cat riga ioto effect-, which he was confident would have the effect of throwing the poor out of employment and of in creasing the Poor's Rates. Much mischief had already-been done by•the agitation of this noes He called upon the House to look ,at the situation of the country now, and compare with that ini which it was found at the com mencement. of the. present Session- -Then pub lic credit •waa high, and commerce flourished ; but from the moment the Secret Committee was appointed, nothing had' been known but stagnation and distress. This too, he tv,..ulti ob serve, was ,not confined to the city-of London. The evil extended to the remotest poets of the country. This he knew wool] torniso au argu ment- for going on. suffered so mush al ready, it would be said we ought to be content to endure a .little more to obtain the great good de sired. lie should be content to do so, if h e did not feet that it Was not a little more that would do, and was convinced, that if this measure floss ed, gr . eater distress must be expected in tl:e en suing Sum Mer and Autumn than had yet be , tt ex perienced. Unlesi it were modified, he was err lain that no landlord would be able to get hii , . rent, and the . greatest calamities would fill on the country. lie notieed the, arguments of other HOn—Mrtubers . , and contended many of rt ie oi were - fallacious in the extreme. The , Bank of England, i,t the paper which had been laid before the House, interfered wilt the Government in a way which lie could not approve, but ion h e thought this measure would subit•ct that hotly in hardlthips to' which, they ought not, to be expos e d. He, boaever, thought the plan of the Committee, would give them a 'controlling pywer over the' circulating medium which no .private company ought to possess. More time freight to be allowed the Bank to prepare for paying in bullion thin i t • waa'now proposed should be given, and he- could only find one recommendation, in the present plan that was much, calculated upon. Thi s was, that it gave the public additional secu •rity that-cash payments should be resnmed at the period now to be fixed upon. He- was, however, of opinion, that without such seen rity they might be satisfied the Bank would comply with what they knew to he tile will of Ministers rind-of that House. They ought then to place that confidence in them now which their ancestors had always reposed in the Bank, and which the Bank had never forfeited. It it could he proved that they were unworthy of such con fidence, their charter. ought to he abrogated, And a new Bank established, on which they could More securely depend. He thought the public ought 'to be left to pay the interest of their debt, which they were willing to meet under the present sys tem. The Bank, he believed, would have resum eil payments before, had they-been paid what they hail advanced fOr the service of the State. Now lie was of opinion Ministers ought to bind a , great- of the unfunded debt—establish a real sinking fund, and meet the difficulties of the country with vigour and decision. When he looked at the falling price of the. funds, It ap peared to him, that to call on the Bank to pay their notes in gold, at the moment a large lo a n was about to be negociated, was in fact to throw the money of the public away. He knew not what that House could s'ay . to the terms of a load negociated under such 'circionstairces., Ankimisly did he Lope that the evils which he anticipated might not occur ; but he did confidently expect that they would - be severely felt. He theretore called on Ministers to remember the sacrifices which the people had made, and save them from the impending calamity. If thos,c iryluo stiffer from -rite measure now in contemplation had over-traded, to use the fashionable phrase, they stilrdesetved the pity aud protect iou of the . House, and ought to have time allowed them to recover themselves, by introducing the contemplated Change more gradually than was at present proposed. , Sir H. PAIINLML thought many of, the inconve oiences which the last Speaker expected, would .arise 'from the adoption of the plan now under consideration, could only be felt if the Bank, were compelled immediately to resume Cash Payments. The eourse• recommended in the Report- was that which appeared .best calculated, to effect the ob ject in view ; for if the House wet: merely to de clare tam Cash Payments should be resumed at a (nstatit day, be doubted not the price of gold would he kept up as it had hitherto been, so that the Bank would hare as good. a case as. ever, when ti ziit time shoul t l arrive, for csilling on . Far lianst•nt agait to postpot , te the period for the re sumrtion of payments in specie, Ile thought the present measure would only "dimini;ll that part of the currency which was founded on fictitious cre dit. For the practice of over-tr'ading, - ifit - shOntil . be checked. he thought every ftiend to the pros• perity of the country would have reason to re joir..: He did not see any strong reasons to in duce him to think that the'plan recerminended in the Report of the Committee would compel the . Bank materially to diminish the atriOunt of their paper at present in circulation. He ltdt . that the currency Of the country was at length likely to be restored to a sound and healthy state, and for one he, felt grateful to those: who had contributed to effect so desirable an . object., Mr.tioaNEY(of Norwich) said, that in 1797 the amount of the pliblia,debt was 400 . .0,00,004 and it Was the inability of paying theiOterest of this debt in specie that rendered the Bank: Restriction necessary. It was indeed said that a public alarm was the immediate cause of the restriction. Let thisbe . grauted. What was the oat e_of this alarm, but the conviction that we Inol gone so far in.debtthat it would be imposstble - to continue paying the interest of it unless some measure was adopted ? Accordingly the Bank Restriction Act svii'pAse(l; our guineas were all p one , and we ciruld not get theni back.' Tfie feeling was n'ow . , that the plan for removing the restriction would occa , ion such a reduction of price's that it would be impossible to continue paying the interest of the debt anti, iu consf.quence, the national et e- Ititor was alarmed. It now FtppeAteo that of the -25,000.0001. issited by the Bank, 20,000,000/. re pry sented. the debt of the Go‘faiinient; and this 'sum. so long as it circulated in paper, was reCeiiN: ed by the Government. But bow the Govern ment were for taking tlie.e notes to the Bunk, and inOsiing on having Million. On this the Bank very nator ally . -aid to the Government, " You owe us 20,000,0001, ; pay us that stint in gold, and we will then agree to circulate that gold, in stead of our paper" 11,t6ARDo rxplained. Lind F , 4.lisToNii said, it appeared to him that the Bight Hon. Geo., Oil an who brought forward the Resolutions before the Hoirse, bad not stated the case of the Batik quite faitly. It was rot exactly trite, that the merit u .f retorning to the standard of currency wits due to Qteen Eliza beth. because, in fact', she had done no more titan what was determined on by Edward I he. Sixth. As to cilia had been done in the reign°, William 111. it was not ti return to the aecient standard, but. merely fixing it. objection tithe plait of the Chairman of the Secret Commi7tee was trot to its principles, but with the mode in whit t it was in tended to put them into or ration. '1 lie scheme of his Hun. Friend seemed to him better. There could be no doubt that vomiting to the ancient standard would be attended with many ineOnve niericieS.'. But the measure now proposed, and the quarter whence it proceeded, showed must strongly that troll waS sore reltimatdy to pre . .; 7 Vail. Yet although there seemed to be consider able unanimity on the eeueral principle, there was notch difference es to the I►Artirttl , r mode o f returning to a metallic correocy. However Much fie was rejoiced at the change of c , pit t ibn in the Right Hoo.Gentleman and . tree others who had formerly o pposed the kHiiioll Report, it VVas . possible not to feel that the Might Hon. Gentle man might have used someex'pressiens of regret . t h at t h e 'hai n l ot so ' oner' proceeded to , a n inquiry, .and Lhecked the obstinacy of,:the •Mi nistry. But the :nost strange thing Iva's, that the. Ri g h t Hon. Chancti , or of the Exchequer, chile he a - g i• e ed to the present plan, protested that all his' opinions remained unchanged. (loW this could be, considering that the. principles the plan woe diametrically opposite to those opinioos, he could • not , .untlerstand. Whether the Noble Lord opposi te (Lard Castlereagh) wo o l,' say that he had_given up his Old opi nions against the, Bullion Iteport, `lie did not, know ;. but he trusted if ' that . NOble Lord ftivoured the noose with a statement of his opinions this night, lie would enter into the sub ject somewhat more fully than the Chaticellor of the EXcheqner. Part of-the proposed plan was to repay 10,000,0001. of the debt due, by the Go vernment to the Bank, and this stint was to be provided by a loan. It was to be considered that the interest of this loan, and the various expenses attending it; woithlamount to the annual .sum of near ly two millions And a half. lie could not see 'any Wayof providing, for this new charge. but by an incre ase of taxes,.and be would put it to the (loose whether the.cOuntry was in such a stat e a s to bear any new taxes. It was a very hard thing to compel the people to, pay the national creditor in speCie the amonnt of interest due on a debt which had been contracted not in specie, but in paper. But hard as this was, it was exactly what would happen in consequence of the resumption of cash payments. If we returned ,to the old standard by such inconveniences, any distress which would be occasioned would be .attributed to. the . scheme 'itself. The plan woald not he perfected for four years, and it was to he consi dered that within that Hine the complaints might grpla to sod; a height as to compel the abandon mem of the plan altogether. This was an 'incon venience Which, by, some alteration of the plan, might be wholly avoided. By the present plan the Parliament was in part recognizino the depre ciation which hitherto they'had all Log , in fully denied. ,There seemed in hint to-be more in this objection than was allowed. Another ot,j(:e jeetion was, that the Bank' would have the same means, of defeating this plan as they had that of the year 1810. At that time the House for a whole . evening were puzzling ihemselves to find out the strongest expression of their opinion that the re iiimption of Cash Payments was absolutely neces sary. The Bank Directors too then gave the most solemn assurances that Cash Paymeots would hr resumed. 'Vet, in spite' of all this, and the Act had passed, the Wank increased their issues of paper to a gt cater Minium than ever, and com menced a variety of operations, which prodeceit such au effect out the price of gold and the rates Of exchange as enabled t hem to come to the I-louse and say, that they would be utterly ruined it they weft Cott - Incited res fti tesue ca l l peythsnte. Vi ll3, ,'" was to pi event the Bank trout resuming saco operations as soon as this plan received the We' tion of Path h»erit, and thus wholly futon-ad:lg if. He must, however, admit that this objection wail erpially - applicable to every plan which could be devised. The Bank had a clear interest in havinK . a fluctuating price Of gold ; and therefore n'h - ci t. ' ever tended to give theta the command of the bill' lion market. ' The Hon. Bank Directors wb ° spoke last night, complained that confidence we' unjustly withheld front the Bank. Is'or his. ow° part, when be recollected how great an interest the Bank bad in the continuance ot the restrictiont he knew not well bow •to have much confidenc e on tie present occasion. Another thing whic k prevented him s tinim having much confidence it them was, that they wished so much to have 6 , large discretion reposed in them. He was lb! more jealous on this subject, from recollectino that some years ago, when he wished to introduc e a clause' into the Act of Parliament, tending td: give a discretion to the Bank, birth the Governor and Deputy Governor (to whorls he was referred • on the subject by the Chancellor of - the Exchee (pier) ; declined having ste b a discretion. Ao o ‘ titer thing which shook iris coofidence in the 13 , 1 111 ' -.vas the recollection of their conduct at the time • when he had ihtrridOcett: a Bill into the' Hottsi some years ago, Ariel( they 'opposed (although' ii did Hot recognize. the doctrine of depreciatiortY ) because it gave them • the po ever of commandirl} the bullion market.. As to the.plan now proposed , be once more begged to be understood as.not oP"' posing its principles. But he thought, that, on considering the various circumstances which 14 had noticed; the House would be inclined to thin it ,more advisable to accommodate the plan entire!? to tile sfepreciated state of the currency. es Mr. Ceihits said, that it seemed to be agreeas on all Itattds that the resumption of Cash l'EtY7 mews Would he attended with a very consider.: able shock, and that means' should he athipted to. make this shock as Ught as possible. - He thott4h e 1 1 it was_not.faiteto accuse the Bank.of itisinceritY l merely because the last ex vriment of gradually returning to Cash Pavan:tits had failed. In hie'. opinion, notliing had been shewn to jarstify the House in withholding its countenance f r om the t Bank. The idea of forced issues was carried a a much greater extent than it might. A restrictii': int issue could he nothing else than an absolate . refusal to discount certain bills at certain d a tes , In all agricultoral districts it was well - k n osvii - that the amount of discounts varied in exact pro"' portion to the price of at e tricultural produce. It I was a very general opiniou that a.. retuan to tree 1 tallic currency would be very desirable ; if it coalel I I be accomplished without distressing the connuer" 1 dal interests, At the same time, be did nut t hink. ! that the distress which now prevailed was sari' : butable to the institution (0 the inquiries by pare , i liament. On the edntraty, he was inclined ft' I think that the distress was occasioned by the ex" peered depressiou in the pi ice of corn. As toll)* Resolutions before the House, he was rather . . i dined to support the Resolutions of the HAP. ' Mernher for Coventry (yir. Ellice) ; hut, if he . I were in order, he would propose as an am end" 1 thew, to erase the 4th and sth of the Resolutions Which that Moo. Member had moved. 'file tea' I son ally he would erase then, wa s , that he thought the House ought not to, dictate to the Charcellhe of the Exchequer as to what proportions and in wbiti - Modes he shoald repay the debt One to the Bark. .He, was inclined to use every possiblo - Means to allay the present ferment. Mr. I.3soopva, (the Chairman) said, that this best course for the Honourahle Gentleman (Mrs Cripps) to pursue, 'with respect, to his ,ameadment , as there was already an amendment heore the , Committee, would he to Vote against the 4tlt and , sth Resolutions of the amendment, when tho Iquestion was nut upon - theme ~ Mr. sLiHN ShliTH said, that the subject Bo ( 1 under discussihb was one on , which he felt thll greatest anxiety, front an impression of' its ease imptntance. As to • what had been said of the confidence to be reposed in. the Bank, he c oold. Inn forget the eminent services which that esta. lishment hail rendered to the country. He could not go so far as to ,say that the Bank of 'England ha'd saved the &mutt)? ; but, he must sassthat it I hail rendered the country great set vices, lie . 'Wished to he allowed to say a few words as to t he iodividnal Conduct of the Bank Directot s, because be thought.a ,very unfair impression prevailed as ; to, their conduct. What was the most remark- . able feature in the conduct of those Gentlemen was their absence of all selfish feelings. This was evinced in various circumstances ; antis amongst others, int their having restricted thew . sek es to holding too more Bank stock (oot wish.. standing the great profit derived from it) than was in;cessary to truslifythemsts Directors. IVhth respect , 1 to the resumption ot Cash Payments, he was ot opie - '. .. • 'thin that it, wattle! he sufficient to fix a rime %elicit •Cash Pay - tnents should be renewed definitively, , and to allow the Batik to make of thems, Ives Ike: . necessary prepat at ions. As to the alarm which novo prevailed, it - was perfectly unfounded. Hee did -. not know witat it meant. It the !Attu prtniosed . . , was to cause a Considerable diminution of - tile --; , circulating meditml, he would take alarni as soon _. as: any one. Anti he believed that an unfounded apprehension int this subject:was the cause of the alarm. No such diminution was intended; a r i a the• plan could have no such .effect. But at the same time hehnost coniess that there was a sub.; ject on which' he felt some - -alarm, though litre , hoped it would be alispellt 0 by =‘llitt.' he should hear this night from some of elm Gentlemen of the , Bank. What alarmed , him, was. this-- s lest the e . BOik, supposing that at tins 6 ate mentioned ,i!} 'the r Report they would be obliguri - to. pay in bullion at 31. 173. 10-1.1,, wotild gn into the • inaiket to buy hp COIL; tinder .this appreheme sht, and thus cause trite very thing which , I 1 hey dre tiled.' H e trusted that this wobld not , I take'place. , :snot ,cc subject to Which he wished . to call the particular attention' of the House was, ; fist grelt amount of the sum to he tepaid by Go rernment to the :lank. The 13tAuk Directors ought not to complain , Itat they pdssess not the poiver. ; 'I hey have the non er, `hut they will not use it. If . tett mlllions he r4aid to them, as the greater part . of the debt due by. G,,,,,,,,,,,,, ti.e v; ...,0, 0,4 to 'be, iA any dilemma. 114 objected to the • amendment, as inefficient. Lie did nut approve.; the 1 !%wftl tone they cemi, vi ri ~~, i (,e~ 11 1 4 -ot