The Sun. — London, England, 1816-03-05 00:00:00

that economy which you have recommended. You rethiettylltir theory to pract ice, tor tkil-Ricale is wanting to bring your system to perfectinno— Ile would farther say, that to pursue a the reverse of that 'thus recommended; would he to produce a state of things, which inexperience could . not paliiHte on the one hand' nor poverty support on the other. fie tViihed it to be under ouod, that when he voted-fur referring the Army Estimates to a Committee, Itd.haci not given an ipiniott on the Estimates themielves. lle bad merely so vnted, because he thought - it was only lit a Comtnittee that a reductioniwtheir amount ertsibi be effected: Mr. LAMIITON and, Mr. LYTTLETQN condemned the Pronetty 'Vox, .EunLcalled on the Chancellor v t th e ENchequer to abandon it. 'l he Petition wactlien ordered to lie - on the tolls, Petitions against the Property Tax, from Oak. .Jog.hain, from the Word of Lime-street, ;and the iorougli of Tesrkeshitt'y, were presented, read, . and ordered to lie on the table, MILITARY CLUB. Mr. C. FotaY presented a-Petition from Len -minstee against the Property Tax. He briefly deserihed the Petition, which, in noticing the in tended Peace Pestablishment, complained of the sistruce.of the Military Club, winch it repre seetedto be an object of jc..alotoiy and alarm. C. - MotecK applauded the sentiments of the Veiitioners with respect to the Military Club he put it to .the consitkration of the House, if any other Club had ever been formed of a similar »Ater?, coofined to any particular class of melt. fle complained of . the favour shewu to the mili tary on most occasions, and in one instance, by the creation of the Order of Knighthood, heal which the people generally were excluded.. Ile considered the character of the Military to have been efteraterl from that of the rest of the com. sunnily by the introduction of barracks. Mr. dnOCi t thought a more illiberal And unjust attack had never been made on anybody of men slicer that. which had been,made no the army by the mention just made- of 'the Military Club. It was rather severe that Officers who had been so k)ug employed lighting our battles; should thus be treated as traitors to that freedom, and ene r mitts to that Constitution which they had so gala I - Indy fought to preserve. - Mr. C. V. Wystrie protested against the con duct of the Tirol, Gentleman 'who- had just at down, as being directly opposed to all freedom of debate, when an objection was raised to the can- Ya•sing of the institntions of the country in the Mouse of Commons. lie. was ready, to uphold and admire the personal characters of the 'Mein, l'era of , the,Military Club, but be objected to the formation of such a body of men, from whose meeting civilians were excluded. lie was told, tbat , one of the rules of the Club was, that 1)0 po litical dismission should be introduced on any ac count whatever. This was very4cood, but how did he know that some fine t iy,,when a sufficient number were assembled together, this good resolu t inn would not he rescinded. To get itself tolerated, it was easy-to pass a resolution like OW to %%thick htmllre alluded; wit') the intention of subsequently redciodiug it, for he did not supp'ose they would come to Parliament to get adherence to it, made obligatory. He objected to such an institution as the Military Club, which would look up for the countenance of the Crown, and the CrOWII alone. in 1798, when it was in contemplation toittertlase the pay of the Officers in the Army, a Message. seas sent down to Parliament., in the first instance, before any thing was determined upon.; but it) 18'14 . , when a similar incttaseof pay was. thought necessary; it had been done by an Order in Conn, eil,.which Parliament afterwards was invited to sanction. Lord PALSIEFISTOX rote to correct a mistake into which 'the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had fallen, and % . % , bieh had surprised hint a good deal, Considering his great knowledge in eollStitatioDal precedents,. Thellon. Gentleman Said, that the last increase of pay to General Officers had first been ttiatle by, an Order in Council, snit that af terwards Parliament had been called upon to lc• quiesee. Sorely the :Hon. Gentleman *est' know that it is not possible for any regulation as to the army, could he Made by an Order, in Council. With respect to the navy, indeed, the case was somewhat different - , and these were instances of regulations, affecting that branch of the service having been made, by Orders :from the Privy Council. What . the ,honourable. Gentle-Man probably meant "to state s -was this, that some regulation had been matte for Mertes- - log ,the puy of Officers before the consent of Par liiimcut was obtained. Now fur himself he could only state,- that during the time that .he had filled the office which be now bad the biinottr•of occu, vying, no such thing had taken place ; and he should have thought thathe was transgressimgbis duty if he had made any communication to' the army of an increase of pay until the measure was. eittbmittedto Parliament, and its consent obtained. This had becn done in 1814, when the. last increase r;f pay : 44d. been Wade to, Gen that occasion be had jtiniself brought ;down' the estimates, and laid them on- tbeaeblei prepareteey to opening the proposed measure to the !loamMr. Mr. WY!4NW said, be Might have been ntiltalten in alluding to the case of the increase of pay to Os,. litral Officers. But there was one instance in-which, lie was certain that ,he was perfectly correct; ` , namely. the increasenf pay.to serjeanti..fie was perfectly certain that an Order of Council-had-been vAned;--during the recess of ; Parliament, directing the increase of their pay,' Lm'd Pat.stsarrON-- - -As to theincreaseof ser jeants' pay, he did belieeethe lion.fientlernin.was right'; there had been some slight interference by an Order in Conned, but it was in a very trilling matter; and not by any Means considered as aim., lately decided midi confirmed byrarliamenti- Colonel Waorßeing,une of-the unfortunate :Members of thatlfilitary Clitb,r which bad- been unaccountably made the subject - . of so much dis cussion, wished to set theWon:;Qentlentan (Mr. Dickenson)' right, by Stating the mature of an stitution so muck -111iStepte*Itedor;:iit was :.Cer tsinly trite-that there was-alitreat tuitither of mili-. tary men in the Club, but then there ma: also a great proportion of Gentlemett in the gat See-` vice in the Club‘ as originally :formed,. and "in cousequcuo of trjun9elyst . rfkicb Izs4 4attly-ligem efrec .a t^d with :mother Club, the number Of naval ,meti and been so touch increased as to bear au exact proportion to those who belonged to the Army. But in addition to the junction of these two great ,beanches of the Service (a junction which .he would have thought calenlated to era dicate any disposition to view the Institution with jealousy), there was :anothe r eliss . of Officers,,of Whom the Club ‘vaseomposed, towards whom of all others it would be' aimot impossible to enter :ant any jealous feeling—he me ant Ofileers who had been in the service of th.e lase India Coin pally---who had returned from India with eon sitkrable fortnnes, autl Who, having invested their money 'in this comitry, must be con sidered as - the most .interest.ed in the main tenance of those civil .otahlishitients by which their property was secured. But, besides these, the Chib included others Whose 'habits, disposi rimy+, and principles were such, that they must •he equally incapable of , exciting jealousy. For instance, there , were many 'Militia 4 .)tlicers no less time 36 Colonels of Militia Ilegiments—great of fruiters perhaps by being assueinied with such a Club, but there they were. (A laugh,. and Hear, hear !)—There were Wisp many Lords Lientemons of Comities. The lionoerable Gentleman said, that 'this was the only Ciub from will all per sons who were not of the sante pi alession were excluded. „But this vas finite a mistake ; there bad been 'no kss than tour naval clubs. There were also many other professional clubs ; for inb stance, of Lawyers. And there were, too, clubs of another kiud, very exclusive in their nature,. Nay, the lion. Member w h o presented the Pe tition, was a member of a chtb in which there were not many Gentlemen.—(A trusted the House and the . Hon. Member woold excuse the slip which be had made ; what he meant was, that the club to which he had alltide was composed solely of persons in the habit of voting in opposition to the measures of Govern• mole.-..((;sits of" name it !" train 'the Opposi tiort.)---die did tiot'iVish to n:iine it very particu larly, but perhaps lie Would be 1;i:del - stood When `he mentioned.that its members %vete in the habit olmeeting.at Brookes's.—(llear, hear !) great deal to o much had been said, about the Military Club. It was certainly deSirable thatethe two great branches of the service, tin:Artily - and Navy, should be completely combined + and should have opportunities of social intercoase. A near relit dim Of the lion. Creutleimovopposite (Mr. Wyuite), was One of the Members of_ the Club, "and, was a Than of whom he might safely say, .that wotild Ile the last to joist in any associatioo.fron t which there cools) be any danger to the .Coustitution.— He repeated, that by the very principles of the iostitution every thing political was excluded, and its,tneetings were merely for the sake of convi- e vialitY, • 11Ir. Ross observed, that after all that had liicen said, the House would perhaps be surprised to hear that he was a treither of this formidable Mili tary Cluh—(A laugh, mot hear, hear !) though it was very well known that he was neither a na 7 , val nor a military man ; but he had recaived an invitation becoine a member of it f ront at; Lord of so high a character, as to be at once a sanction for his aceeptanc e of it. It was of course accouot of the official situation which lie held that lie }bid received thik; invltation, by which he felt hirresrle iaigi,ly boiroured. So fats was froth seeing,any*thing objectiotiablein'the lnsti tutiOn„ that he thought it highly commendable. — Thera was nu') novelty in its nature; for Naval Clubs on a similar Alrineiple had long been esta blished. Aml as to saying thatthere was reason to appreheittl tluitsoine inroad rtgainst the Consti- I et ion was intendea by Stich ale eslabllsl,njent, eon siSting of nayal'and military men; if any mischief of this kind were it tentled by a combine tiOn of that class of society, the object might have been equally elteeted by their calliug a meeting, for the express pnrpOse, without prOetedink tt, establish a Club, (ire at inconvenience to lit. pnblic guiViCe had beeu heard to reitilt from Commanding Officers on foreign s;ations not being, personally,acquitint ; 11114 to obviate this, nothing coidd he better calefilated titan this Club. He could not gee 011 irlsait pOsitive grmind any danger to the COn stitinion_wai to be apprehended from the convivial • meetings of persons. comiected with the Artnyend Navy. Times had been iu which the Constitn tiOn had been put in greater danger by clubs of laWyerS, than it could be .by this Institation.--- (Hear, hearl)—lie had heard with sham e and eonaero the att.tch which had been wade upon this, Club. For his owo part lic,thonght it was estalli4hed on an execlieu:a principle—he felt him, self hottoured by being admitted a member of lie felt warmly interested in ils'anrew—and hoped it would long coptinu i e flourish.- r -,Wea r , hear Loul i‘ituro:st, hoteud of finding that : the ob. jections to this glob .Were removed by what had been said, found them increased. , 'the Hon, Captain . W.at,neottavz said, there, was no analogy seliatuier between . the ,Naval Clubs which hal been, so: long instituted, and Ibis Ali tart' Chub, The former generally 'consisted Of . half-payptiicers, writer could scarcely beconsider ed as wider the inguetice of the Crown. General Ascot c: Ni thought that though no,- thiog s.itisfaetory' had yct beers Said itl vindication of the Military Club it would bar initis,power to do away every „weal v rhble impression:that (Mkt-. e t i 'Hipluit ( ligiger.) The establislaticut „.f a military Cl u b ve a s no innovation. " o far back as the war he 4lug ,William's time aclub - o f this 16141 had - beets established, nntter the natoeof . The " Snonatter a ‘ 4 German Club - had been formed. by the Officers wbobad, served in the, campaigns in that .country; and df tatwards an " American Club; inahort,. he ii o , rlit • I , safely say twit there Clubs were fifteen or sixteen of the same 'description -!,-that was to say, otitn,: postalof mint - 44 mt,e, vVho ,assembled to enjoy each other's S o ci e ty, and to talk over' military li ck ; ventures aud.exploits. 4tnong the rest,.moro re- cently, there had been the " Holland Chib a "; and the " Irish Staff Club." Of all these that remained in existence, a jtillClfrall had:„ been ef, faceted, and an arrangement- had been !lade to have the Alemhers dine , togetfier once a month. lint the ehief intentkon of the Esta•! . I bliahment was, that it should be made ua,eful. to nail-pay 04cets, who might :have a dinner,- or what was. -commonly called an ordinar S c A r cheap rate, anti at the same th ug $ place fil e OSirc- ' where they could meet their old friends.— This was changed into, what. had been called a " General Service Club," - aud included Officers of the Navy, Militia Oflieges, and in short, Gentle- MeneonneCted with the Army or ‘Navy.. There' was no reason to, suppose that military men Were more tinder the influence of the Crown 0)0) 4 atiy other. class of men. FOr his flier, part, he denied that there could be any man who gave more on biki-sedattention to the affairs of his constituents 1)a» himself, or who,aeted more independently. It Was a subject on which he would challenge any man—(;l laugh). lie .meant he wouldeballenge atw loan 'to state that this was not The fact. There %viis'nothing in this Club at' all conitecteilwithpo= lines; and consequently not The shadow of foun datiim for what had been said of its endankti the Constitution. ntiouourtm rose amid cries for the ques tion. This Club was not to be considered alone and as u 06111nel:red with the other symptoths of the times. Lie saw in it Part of a gradual pro= gressive attempt to alter the habits of the comp - . try; and indeed (as had been absolutely stated_on the otherside of the House), to make us More - of a military nation. Unwilling us he'was to prolong this conversation (as there would be other oppOr t unities for going into time -subject) he could not sit down Oh hoot noticing, that influence had actually been used' to induce different persons to become memlietiof thisChib.This single tart was quite suf ficient to show a very lively interest was taken In its conestrus, - in some' quarter which did not need to be more particularly.natned. And further, he understood that to the very quarter alluded to' (in Which no doubt a strong interest 'VHS taken in the application which he had Mebtioned, rind . from whieb, no doubt, suggestions or directions were received a to the individiials to whom the appli cations should he addressed)-i-to 0)3- very quar tet, a regular retlll.ll was made of those who gave it) their moues in acceptance of the invitation, us well as of those who refused. lie , eonetadel by enlogizing the Noble Lord at the head Of the Club (bordllynedoch),- whom he Lvould be proud to call hisfriettd, and from whot», last arch men; -] any thing unconstitutional was to he apprehended: Colontl Wool.) begged to-he,allowed to say a feW words beyond mere explanation. There wit's— on of tile Club, he wished -distinctly to state—not one tittle of foundation 7, fdr 'that hues been said the Hon. and Learned Gentlemiu who bath just sat - down, about officers being courted to become' Alenthers,.and 'returns made to'a certain 'high' personage; When any person who was a candiOate for admission, was rejected, or, as it was called bluck•balled, the person so ex cluded', otenurse heard of his rejection. .130 ex rept'this, there was not the slightest foundation for- what . the Hon. and Learned Gentleman bad asserted. Mr. 13ROUG.HAll firmly believed that the fan 'vas' implicitly as he had stated it : he had heard it on such authority; that even after what the Ilan. Colonel had said, he could not dqubt that it was the ham General OAStOTONft said, that neither returns nor communications of any: kind were ritticle to. tity'quarter as to the election of •the . lllcmhers of the Club, excepting the circulars sent-to tie dif ferent 'Members of the old Clubs which .bad becti incOrporateti . with that in question.. Alr. WiIfiTIRRIK thought Out it was inicurnbeni on .the [louse to look w;th jealousy:upon such an institution/which bad the Duke of York, its Coin launder in Chief, at its head--(Cries of, No, 710 !) whi c h was formed during profound peace, and into which Members -of the Administration were • itdinittett. Mr. Goocit wished it to lie understood that be did not wish to cast any impotatiori against those honourable Membc:s on 'the other aide of the BMOC, for. the course they hail -taken on this oc casion. 'But he meant. to say; that in his opinion the Members o!, the Club were•quite as vrtli able to judge of constitutional principtes,•and perhaps •more likely to -support- them truly, than some of-; :those by whom - they were attacked. Mr. It. WARD desired the • Uouse to observe, that a Member of the Club (Colonel Wood)'had ixpressly contradicted the assertio►t of nu hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, respecting a return being made to any quarter.as to,the eke. Lion or rejection of 'eandittateslor admission the Claim, The Honourable and Learned Gen -1 tertian bud thought-. proper to repeat his as serticrt7,•-anti his honourable • Friend 'was, by the, cities; of debate, precluded 'trout again Ohl) to contradict it. • • After a few wards of. •niutual 'explanation • }lo . ' t wren Mr. Goners and Mr. FOLVE the chnversa lien ended. •The. Petition W. 85 then ordered- to lie on the table. d to Government to info= the utmost econom: from the highest to the lowest in the kingdom— (Loud cries of Hear, hear !)--qind he had no doubt that Ministers would act on this system. — (Hear, hear !) Mr. WysNE expressed his entire con currence all that had been said by the Notle Lord, bat feared Ministers would not act on at. economical system. Mr. PONSONBY wished the House to .hserre what were the Noble Lord's objections to ebe income Tax. The Noble Lord objected to h, first, as it affected tenants ; secondly.. A i" fected landlords ; and 3d l y, as it Oared PI, cornmerciaLinterest. Now, he would ask, class of society would remain to pay the And if loch was the situation of the county;l this tax here imposed by Ministers, vilo; G"' the nation think of such a set of men.. Altera few words from Lord Mitrotir, the_ titian wa s b rou gh t up, read, and ordered to ire o n the table, CIVIL LIST. In answer toe question froM Mr. BEWSED ME CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated' that the delay which had taken place in- the pre' duction of the Papers relating to the Civil Li st ' beyond the time prescribed by the Act, was owing to the necessity of examining a n t h e ' Wools o u f p re tn ni t e lle u s i l r l n te g fi a x il ed ih b e y w t o h r e k A i e n t t o b f e P b st o r i ka i m ng e t n e ry re o ; : col smiler the direction of the Board . of ilq""'" The CHANCE A LL it o HY R o E f ST t I ti M e AT E R: c . own • moved the s Order ur () s o e f , t he p llr D s n a a y n t t tor. the C his no:::::J,titnctgot: of Supply, move that the Cotnmittee should .be'instrunted t o make provision for the support of the Ark my in F r a nce . H e did not t hi n k i t t° trouble the H ouse w i t h an m y If f anerk argumen ts its tAv 4) °,, rOf a measure so, evid ent ly necessary. shoold snake default i n tise paytnent of t he eon: tributions, unl ess the Committee made the r'"",- , sionfnr Whi c h 'h e mov ed ) , there ti , oilicf b e no firlt Means of issuing a firthin g f o r . the support ot, that Army. - Tlme CHANCELLOR of the Exciseauri did net , object to the Motion ; but as his Noble Fritnti in" , tended to mov e i n th e Committee a itesolatied tct the same effect, be thought i t wou ld be unnet o, nary press the motion. The Sr Rattail observed, that by ngreeing , te sg • motion-of the Hon . . Gentleman (Mr. Wynne) 118 House would give a mandatory iustructiors to tI/4 Committee. Mr.W.VNNEsaid,.that this was what IteWlih ed-. Time CHANCELLOR of the Excitenots4 " 1 . 1 meant to say. that the v o t e on t h e su bject %roil' be equally good with or w i t h out t he mot i o n ; bli t t if the lion. Member thought proper to pros it ' he could not disagree to it. WETHEEALL supported th e Motion, .d. took the opportunity of expressing his disupprot hation alike amount of the estimates. The motion was then agreed to. On thr question that the Speaker 'should let s : the Chair, • Mr. PuoTtrenssa slid not rise to oppose die tu'r tion, hot found himself called upon to deliver 1 :': sentiments an so important a subject. 111 ti'6"gd the establishment firoposaa e ...NOpeace of permanency or s ecurity coll . be expected until . the civil sy s t em res „ me d its as!! cenclaricy'dver the military ; and in that ric wti l. .thought it w as i nten d e d to keep up too. gr'e ni " • military force. He was constrained to admit, from the able statement of the Secretary for Re's land,' that .the state of that country required for, the present the maintenance of a large force. A*: to the -.retrenchments that could be made in ,tno 'establishment, the :Noble Lord had stated, th st the reduction of 20,000 . men wou ld on ly prodec° a savins , of 600,000/. lie did not think the 33" jog could be so inconaiderable, He should h i ' ;glad to see Ministers take leave of their establish: =meat, which . they Must:kee l ' ) d o W n if they wishea to stay in their places, Alrilloettisowthought, that after the abundant - discussions which had already taken place, it I .'' been agreed that the House would go into a Coal's, mittee. That method would be mare convenieq:'. and what the two last Hon. Gentlemen had sad . might-as ,well have been spoken in the Committee'' Lord /Nitta e slid not wish to create dell, b" t: ' he owed it to his conscience to state, that onl et ' s some more tirteitOt person should, uddertake the task, he should feel it his dirty to oppose . sti . bringing up. the Report of t h e Committee, tr:l Estimates. were not mater i a ll y altered. c"`"` not see that in a question of exorbitant taxaiioa. on the one hand, and unnecessarily large exP en " diture on the other, it %yds possible to 'sel )B l ll ,.. te them . from each other. Th e H ouse Inu it toosttivs the Income Tax as the price which the country was called upon to pay, and li e 'aid not think that is Standing Army oug h t to h e t h e o bj ect f o r the people. of England should be called upon £o ' J 4 pay such a price. He trusted that the Hot" would look into every item, Of, those Estimate s, and 'not sanction that gewgaw' extravaga— L , L . -7 which tricked out the British army so as to lita'rfr, it appear like an army of millin e i s , and m adelg; British Prince be surrounded by a gang of C 3c !: man Hussars, nutter than trust to the respect Os tt , affection of the people. The motion was then agreed to, and the 8 1"" 4"' left the Chair,.and the House resolved itself into a, Committee. ::Lord PaotensToN stated, that after the amplP discussiqn which the-Army Eitimates had already undergone, he should not enter it second time into their details. it woutd be unnecessarily rrasti n C the time of the House. But h e should he pre* pared to follow any ',lion. Gentleman on that sub" ,acct, sand to give every kind- s ot •explana(lon might be required. He wished,. however, to press HpoH , the Committee, that they were 110 t: consider the. establishment proposes! Its a pea C . establishment, but sts en intermediate arrog7 .meat between a state of wet on the one i"" ( d and a state peace on the other. }l e t ow . also, that although Government had not h;ulti 01 : since the signature of the Treaty, to eartY i n to. effect all the retrenchments which they inten"le" . :in this branch of the public . service, yet it svonl d b fmtud,. by C u l the - Gentlemen who would badalicediheau sitected i although ktiOrf ithastintates With those for the lastye*r, t hi; tr) still Li; Nkr.ll7 K RAT. ° f utile motfoa of Sir, TLICIALVIIARING, a New Writ was ordered to he issued , fur the election of a BurKess to serve in the present Parliament for Borough of Levies, in the room of T. W. KeisiP,lisq; who since his election has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. ..P.ttOPEirry TAX. Other 1104i:ono were isresented from different parts of the Kingdom againit this Tax, namely, from the City Of Chester, lbe Town of tileverit.r, the Parish of , Maide n , firadie, 'in lttittahire ' ;Yarrie ale North of Yorkshire, Gsabo. rough in Yorkshir e . They were. all read, and oriered do lie on the table. On Lord MILTON lioringisroiented a Petitiou'fromecrtai n Inbahitanta of, beds against the Property Tax, Lord Lases.t.t.as .rose and stated, that he sin , durstood that this Petition did lint. by any ntcantY empress the generairsentlinenta.uttbe population of Leeds... As the state. la his, health would present his. attesiliog 411 e very late•dehatts which 'were likely to take placo..ow the subject of this tar, be would, take ;the. libarty.of stating to the House, very shortly, his sentitnenttoponit. lie.-was not to.helunderstood Its iIIAW giving any decided ninu. For or against the continuance of the titx, Rut if it WWI. to be continued,. it ,required many material modifications and alterations toxattite it tolerable—Meer, hear !) Jet, 'relight to he rs, diseed as it affected the tenant; 201 y, it iihouldhe :altered pi it .affected the landlords., because many of &ern had not nominally reduced their rents, . although thay.bed perhaps been the greaten Itif foers ; .3(11y, it required Alter/Ake as the commercial interest. For his utvn, , Pgrt.. as to relieving the'distress throhgbnut the country,. he th o ught it absurd tn.suppose thatany.bpeci the in*. t , sore to ba.adopted by that Bouse,could be eifeC::' toad.' Relief econki only be airorded by jug taxation And fur this puTeett be recomnicst(i