The Sun. — London, England, 1828-05-12 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PLII3LIC JOURNALS. It has been alleged, we see again in the debates, that the Catholic priesthood in Ireland have an un due and most dangerous irteuence over the people of their communion, admit that it is so; and of oil the grounds on which we rest the salutary pry hey of a law for emancipation, the power now exer cised by the, Popish church and its ministers is be rm' comparison the strongest. It is not many years the priests of Ireland enjoyed no social inter aith any members of their own creed except those of mean condition. The priests themselves - • were of lowly origin, and were kept at a distance by the gentry. At the first establishment of the eatholie Association, the lay leaders acted inde pendently of the priesthood. What is the case , a a w ? As the Orange opposition here and itt Ire land became more stubborn and inexorable., the Ca tholic laity found that such a weapon as priestly in fluence ought not to he • let rust in the scabbard. The church was called in o .'o help forward the cause, of the aristocracy. - Every hour of anti-Catholic provocation has ati:aed cement to the political bond, :and has So toi'ed up the hierarchy with the pro perk' of (ha Catholics, that it will require a great OtOrt of constitutional force to disunite them. Rol* is this to be done ? The league betvvecit taiest and layman, we find, has not grown Dirt of emancipation, but has sprung from the Want of it, and from the struggle to obtain it. t'eur years ago the Irish priesthood were conialaratively aloof front the party politics of their aect. The resistance made to the rights of the laity has, we repeat, conferred, pro hac vice, upon. tie church, whatever it HOW pos sesses of a ehante"rer formidable to the GOvernment. Then,' we say, let the malady suggest thte Shall we continue the same cosine Which has pro "aluL-ed and consolidated this artificial alliance between aim it lest and layman ? No,• but retrace our foot step:4 and So dissolve the league. Offer the Catho !semicolon a partnership in the constitution to in cithoilify him foe his association with the priesthood. 'Rouse. him by a tender. of those high and just re. wards Nvhich animate the Protestant in his pattiotie am. Zaition, Are Protestant Statesmen willing tools of the Established Church in what affects the liberty of the s , alajeet ? - Are Catholic statesmen, even where their sawn church is by law established, blind instruments in • the grasp of their priests? Were the noble Catholics . 4, vho fought .victoriously under the banners of Elizabeth " divided in their allegiance," or dis tracted in their zeal, or told, or treacherous towards s Sovanalign excommunicated by the see of Rome, ;it with the great temporal representativ e and thaunpion of th e Popish faith in. Europe, and h erse lf he head and. front of the offendin g heresy of th at age ? Are the lay Catholics of Gertnany, Or . Swit serlarni, or France,. so enamoured of their respective .priests a as to sacrifice the country at their bidding ? In our inmost conscienceascience we are satisfied, that if danger exists,--nad it does exist, a'nd is imnrinent,---.exclusion i 3 the cause of it, and eman cipation would be the remedy. -Yf then talk of giving power to the Catholic body by Act of Parliament, let, them reflect that the act which give them, and which alone in .Iceland Mild give them real power, was that which rastored to the the right of acquiring property. The law fetich attempts to divide power from property is adverse to the whole spirit and practice of this con stitution, end its effect is against the state of a force which it cannot extinguish. We will be frank on this occasion, and leave rto reproach of ambiguity upon our principles, or of lack of spirit in our ex pression of them,. We deeply and instinctively dis trust, and dislike, and fear the Catholic church. We have always despised the silly affectation of consult ing and nagaeiating with the Irish priesthood, to 116.• tertain on what terms it would condescend, forsooth, te, sanction an act of the Imperial Legislature for admitting lay Catholics to the .Constitution. This has been our invariable lang,uage. Parliament ought., without even glancing at the possibility of a murmur from this reverend corporation, to-re aolve -that none shall dare to exercise the functions of a Bishop in his Majesty's dominions, without lip ing previously appointed or approved by the Crown. To this - extort we go band in hand with Sir Nieho laa Tindal, or any other the most jealous enemy of t Rontiah hierarchy.. We would fix by law a de- Mit provision for these spiritual magistrates of the naidority of the Irish nation, and for their parochial rico- 4 y, that they might not be compelled; on pain . of `starving, to court and subserve the Wayward passions of a multitude, whom it will cost many years to bring within the reins of civilization.' Tying the priest hood thus, neck and heels, and taking the laity into 'cordial partnership with a Protestant and enlightened people, the reasoner of another half cell-, tury would wonder where the parties of the present day had found materials for so' much unmeaning fear of an act so fraught with every principle of effectual pacifitattion.—aTimcs. The great argument of Mr. Peel against entices ..;i•on to the Catholics is, that if by the Constitu t tort we are to understand the King and the Mem hers of the Houses of Lords and Commons, and we j 241114 the Roman' Catholics into the Legislature; we shall make a most important change in that Consti tution, which was established at the Revolution, and which was meant to be perpetual - • • • • Feeling. that in the present relations of the , Roman Catholic and the Protestant religions, the one orthe ether:it/list have the ascendancy, we are desirons that that ascendancy-,-a qualified and moderate ascendancy should belong to the PrOtestant Cl.nucli." We have always understood that Con stitutions and Churches were themselves means, but uleaus for an end, and that that end was the being of the community, If the population . of a ,:ountry can be rendered happy by a Protestant Con ..--titution and Protestant Church, then they ought by all weems to have a Protestant Constitution and Protestant Church ; but if a Protestant Constitu- Atoll and a Protestant Church so far from contri buting to the well-b e i ng of a country, arc the cause of .461 itsmt discord, and all the evils which follow in - its train, if we obstinately determine that the Constitution and the .Chuich shall, notwith ltanding, remain unmodified, what is this but saying t h at , a Constitution and 'a Church are not for the „l c 0 1ihe people, but thte people for the sake of the Constitution and the Church ? Mr. Peel did not attempt to spew that the present wretched stat e 1 r Ireland was not the fruit of the attempt to main tain a Protestant Ascendancy; nor did he attempt to pro ve -th a t Ireland could ever be tranq u illi zed so long as it was gover ned according to ttsectid ancy principles. He did, d'd indeed, draw something like an irference from the recen t conduct . Catholi cs , e • • that concession would not satisfy them, which so far - triproved matters that it gave us the prospect of ra a nd wretched pctual and irremediable discord i'ss in Ireland, and o f course a cotruitllllCitt.l?lt In t;in c of the same wretchedness to England. Good 61){1 ! what a libel on the Constitution and Church, snake their existence in this way dependent on maintenance of a state of things, the condition .14 which is irremediable wretchedness in Ireland, -end ultimately,thin to England. If Mr. Peel wishes to' have any pretension to the character of a States titan, he ought to go farther than merely oppose the ~e nessi o n of the Claims of the Catholics. By his . c‘vri Showing, the ruin of the country necessarily results from his vote, if successful. A Statesman Slioultl have SOIIIC end in prospect. W e will con. CL:de . to him, for the sake of argumemt, tied the Ca. tholic religion is irreconcilcable with political liberty. But are we, because the a C tholie religion is ofthi ge b„_ meter, to be saddled with the expellee of controuling the Irish Catholic population, to say nothing o f t h e danger from Aso many ill-affected millions in our near neighbowhood? NiVe are good Protestants, wh o ought to have the benefit of a Protestant Constit u - C. Lion and a Protestant Church. If, therefore, a _ tholics cannot be admitted into the pale of the Con stitution, and will not be satisfied with exclusion, be! prevent us from. deriving any benefit from on: franchises, why then, to be consistent with him . self, Mr. Peel should propose the exterminatio:: , the utter extermination of. the Catholics. TIE mil of Ireland has been so much exhausted, ac cording to the agriculturists, by eXcessive clopping since the importation of grain into this country was allowed, that it has become little better than a caput mortuum, Six millions of Catholic bodies spread over tire surface of the :Coiluti'y would renovate the soil; and, th&efor'e, this re medv would be much better th'ith the submersion of Sir Joseph Yorke, which might give other lan4s the hen'efit of the dead b o di es , M r . Pe e l i s tirf,bablY in sincere, and his understaUding is riot in fault, but his will. Without attributing to him any very extra ordinary rueenfre of intellect, we think he has more than enough to see the inpnsistiy, as far as reason is concerned, of th'e policy he advocates. We have here his ri,otestant Constitution and his Pittestt , Ait thumb, but then he is bound either to sittW that the country can . be tranquillized under such a Constitution and Church, or to sacrifice the Catholics to that great end: Ile did rat even to' show that the atUetidatiCy system had not been one te.aih talise of the misery which prevails in trtlaiiil, or that wbile.that ascendancysystem lasts we can hope to see tranquillity in it. If the Irish ! , as he contends, will not he satisfied With behig placed on a level with the ..#•rdestants certainly they will 'trot P,ltfiAeti With seeing . Aeruselves played hetOth the Protestants. If giving them what thy ask will not satisfy them, giving them nothing will still less satisfy them. If the Catholic' religion produces all these evils—if Protestant liberty and Protestant religion are itt &instant danger frlnn it—if this be as lit hOntends it, iatind if he sincerely believes what he rnahlttiinstheti lie ought to pro scribe the Catholics altogether, to sacrifice them to the Protestants. SUrely the Protestant Constitu tion and Protestant Church arc for the benefit of the Protestants at all events, and not kept up in or der to ruin them by taxation—to keep doN% n Catho lics whdean never be reelaimed, and the nuppdrt of beggary that son never be alleviated, A Statesman should - not halt bet Ween Otirses in this way; he should look 0 tilt ultimate good of his country, and 17.. eat-amend the course likely to accomplish that end. But Mr. Peel is not sincere ; he is an actor, and his arguments are a mere tissue of pretexts to delude the multitude. Ile knows that if there be any danger to the Protestant Constitution and Pro testant Chttrth from time admission of the Catholics into the pale of the Constitution, that danger must every year be greater, because the Catholics are every year beconiitig, with reference. to the Pro testants, proportionally more numerous and power ful. He knows that what he now refuses must ulti- mately be granted, and that if there be danger, every year increases that danger. But he knows also, that so long as a certain Personage is opposed to these claims, and that in the quarter in question, reason has no chance of prevailing, so long it will be profitable to be the organ in Parliament of oppo sition to t maueipation. We do not mean to say, that of those who oppose the Clangs in both Houses some may not.he sincere. When we consider the extent of imbecility in the higher ranks of this country, that many Legislators are absolutely inca pable of anything like a process of reasoning, we arc rady to admit that the understanding may often be in fault as well as the conscience. We do not how ever', believe the understanding of Mr. Peel to be in fault,—but that he kelieves he cannot play a more successful gamethan that which he now plays. He no doubt says to himself—why should I oppose my honesty to the obstinacy against which it would be unavailing to the public, while it would be detrimen tal to me individually? Let us hope that we may rub on for a year or two without any greater national calamity' than an occasional famine, or typhus fever, in Ireland, and when the question can be approached More favOurably, I ran yield to conviction, when it would be useless to hold out any longer.—Morning . , . . After two nights long discussion, the debate on the Catholic Question is to be resumed this even ing; and would probably, if it were not for the na twat and excusable restlessness of those who attend to vote and not to speak, last a whole week longer— so much have practist'd speakers at all times to say which has been said already. Hitherto, however, the merits of the question - itself do not appear to have gained or lost ground upon the occasion, but are left pretty nearly as the different speakers found them. This must generally,be the case with a war •of words. If debating would set a question at rest, this one has received discusSion enough, and ten times more than enough, long ago. Talking is one of the vices of the present age ; and the truth of the jocular idea,. that "great - talkers do the least," is strongly exemplified in the very little actual progress which eternal speechifying has caused in this im portant matter. It cannot be denied, we think, that the:cause has lost both its ablest advocates and op ponents. On the one side Mr.-Canning and Mr. Plunket—on the other, Lord Liverpool and Dr. Duigenan—seem to have left a void in this part of the political drama, similar to that which occurred in the .actual drama when John Kemble and Mrs.. Siddens left the' staffe. For the sake of throwing some novelty into the discussion,. - new and weaker arguments are brought . forward. than heretofore; among the rest the Treaty of Limerick, which, after being rummaged and ransacked for meanings it evidently will .not bear, appears to us to have no inure to do with the general question than the terms of capitulation to any solitary fortress can influence the ultimate arrangements between con tending Powers. Were we to venture an opinion in the midst. of so many, we should be inclined to say that this subject is suffering, as most subjects do, by the extremes into which the advocates on both sides rush. On the one hand Emancipation is made an unqualified demand, and on the other is met by an unqualiflea denial. l' ow, to us this appears to be, in both instances, wrong. We arc at a loss to imagine of what use year after year's debating can be, unless it teaches the Catholics in what way their object is most likely to he effected. If any one thing, to be gathered both from the temper of Parlia ment .and that of the country, be obvious, it is this, that unqualified Emancipation is what the Catholics never will obtain. What, then, would. men, grown wise by long and repeated experience, do under such circumstances ? Not again and again press their. demands in a way in which, it is clear, they never will be complied with ; but set about considering among themselves, and, in the end, offering to the country such securities and guarantees against the main objection, • the influence of external causes, as common sensa, aided by the example of other coun tries, points out. This, and this only, will ever re concile the people of this country to the measure; while the very inclination to withhold those securi ties, throws a degree of suspicion over the deMand, which, in many minds, rivets their objections more Strongly. O n the other hand, the unqualified oppo nents of the question would do well to consider that though. truth is immutable; casuistry is not. One of • their own most fo rmi dable weapons in argument— viz. that Catholic Emancipation would lead to the till more dreaded rep e l of the Test Act—has sunk froM under them, anc l: h °" whi he ch fallacy even tolfrethgereTtoesstt Minds labour. In f act, the whole rooted impressions under itself into one of safety ; anti to question resolves at home and present cx . -isure . ,alety, past experiem , , (lemm a ! abroad, teaches us to de n car ")- -- 741orning Herald. . R-E.—Wellekse.str t n c'e l ' . in w ß li lit ich U this theatre' ita the ruins. The inquest has done all that it possibly could this CK . T ' i s i e E r i e k e . t i et . 1, is still bl oc k aded u do in pronouncing the -verdict on•• the evidence brou g h t before them, and awarding a deodJod,' yet nu person bas come forward to remove the'rnsterials, which are a great annoyance to the inhabitants and the public. A meeting of the commissioners within the precincts of IVellclose, in the liberty of the Tower, consisting of Messrs. LA MLA I', WILLIAMS, HEDGE, HUTCHINSON, WCANN, GIBSON, &HUNCHES-, CARDING, and others, was therefore held on Tuesday last, the 6th instant, Mr. LAIDLAY in the chair ; when, in order to get rid of the nuisance, as well as to pro tect the property, they came to the resolution of putting up the Materials of the Brunswick Theatre in lots for sale, and aft er pay i ng a ll necessary expences , to h o ld t h e pro ceeds of the sale in their hands to meet the claims of the Crown, and of all other parties to who al t he . same may be found to belong. SECOND EDITION. SUN OFFIC:;', &l en o'Cluck. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS. Lord MARYBOROUGH presented a petition front the Roman Catholics of Manchester and Salford; praying for CaOolic.ElOaocitiaikii: Iletari of ELDON presented petitions against grant ing any further concessions to the Catholics, from Glasgow, a parish in Armagh, Killeggan and Newcastle, in Wick low, three parishes in Tyrone, WateringbY, B ears t e d, Bredgar, and E as t P ec kh am , i n Kent. The Noble Earl also, pitrated a petition fr o m Ch a p tioaderS ati4 etiom the ,petition Trade at Tees Ilnrbdiii alt./141st the Tees Navigation Bill. Lard DE DUNSTANVILLE presented a petition from Gadniyu, in Cornwall, against the continuance of slavery in the British Colonies. The Earl of MALMESBURY presented d tittitinti front Woodhridge.sed. HadliY Stitfolit against the importation %.if Foreign Wool. on the motion of the Noble Lord the petitions were re ferred to the Select Committee now enquiring into that subject. A similar petition was presented by the Duke of ATHOL, from the central division of the County of Perth. The Noble Illtke presentbd a petititinfrorn the s ame p l ace against the proptised Sea of Duties in the torn Bill. petitions were presented from Colchester and a hundred in Essex, by Lord Maynard. The Earl of LONSDALE presented a petition from Kirby Lonsdale against the importation of foreign wool. - • Lord GODERICII presesented a petition from Mr. Sergeant Rough, complaining of the manner in which he had been dismissed from his situation of Chief . Jus tice of Demerara, and praying that the House might reconniteitled to his Majesty to grant relief to the peti tioner. The Bishop of CHESTER presented a petition against any further concessions to the Catholics. Lord LORTON presented similar petitions from two pa rishes in Sligo, and from Acklow and another place in Wick low, - The Earl of CARLISLE, in presenting a petition from the parishioners of the Union of St. Mary Ross, com plaining of the hardships which they have endured under the present tithe system ; the petitioners also complained of the conduct of their Rector, the Rev. James Morgan. Mter sonic observations from the Bishop of ORMOND and L mrd CLIFDEN, the petition was laid on the table. Lord SHAFTESBURY moved the third reading of the, Isle of Man Corn Bill. Lord MALMESBURY, before the third reading 466: Bill, begged to observe that within the last three months, not lens than 20,000 sacks of Flour had been imported into England from the Isle of Man, of Wheat that had been carried there to the amount of 30,000 qrs. upon which the duty had not been paid; that the value of this could nut be less Shan 70,0001, to 80,000/. ; and that if the duty consistent with that imposed last year bad been paid, it would have amounted to the sum of 40,0001.,—the whole of this - duty had been evaded, and the present Bill was intended to correct the abuse. The Noble Lord's view of the subject was, that there ought to be on the present oc casion, a prohibition instead of a duty. A prohibition was intended, and if so, a short Act of that nature ought to be passed until the Coin Bill in progres in the other House bad passed into a law. The duty consistent with that im posed last year ought at all events to be I Is. ; and the Noble Lord was quite anxious to know on what grounds this Flour was to be received from the Isle of Man, on paying a duty of ss. His Lordship also thought that this Bill ought to have been passed in March last, because it was notorious at that time that traffic was going on then. On the whole the Noble Lord thought that a prohicitory act should be passed, or a duty equal to last year's laid on. The Duke of WELLINGTON could assure his Noble Friend that he had'merely heard of this traffic by accident, and that the moment he beard of it, he requested that a proper measure might be adopted. With respect to the . difference between the ss. and Ile. duty .alluded to by the Noble Lord, this grasn had been in the warehouse for nearly a year, which with the charge of carrying it to the Isle of Man, would make it nearly as much as the duty imposed last year. At all events the Noble Duke thought it would be better to pass this Bill as it was, than send it back to the Commons to have other provisions which would take up considerable additional time. For his own part he was no party to the mistake that had taken place, by which this trade had been permitted to go on. All he could say or knew was, that the moment he . heard of it, Inc desired means to be adopted for a remedy. The Bill, with several others, was then read a third time. Earl FITZWILLIAM presented petitions from the In habitants of Pontefract, Yorkshire, praying for the abolition of lavery. The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions from various parts in Suffolf against the importation of foreign grain. Also, petitions from several parishes near Tuns bridge Wells, atol from the Freeholders and ComMissiOners of Supply in the county of Argylle against the importation of foreign wool. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from Dr. Ramage and the surgical class of the Windmill-street Medical School, WeStminster, praying for the removal of impediments for dissection. Lord CLIFDEN presented a petition from the Roman Catholics of a parish in Yorkshire, praying for tine remo val of their disabilities. • • • - Lord DARNLEY presented a petition signed by about a thousand of the inhabitants of Manchester including most of the bankers, merchants, and respectable people in that town. The petition stated, that the signatures were put to the , petition formerly presented from that Borough praying that their Lordships would not send the Penryn representation to them under a statement made to them ; that they must either petition for or against that represen tation : the present petitioners stated. that they would be happy to receive either the Penryn, or my other representation, - provided it was accompanied by some mea sure to secure them from disturbance at the time of election. Unless additional evidence should hereafter be given calculated to make out the case against Pcnryn, the Noble Lord did not know that it would be necessary to urge the disfranchisement of that borough, but he thought it would be sufficient to pass some measure t? prevent future corruption there. The Marquis of SALISBURY, on some future occasion, would feel it necessary to call tins attention of time House to the enormous expences incurred by this frivolous and vexatious case. The Earl of CARNARVON said that a Bill sent up front the other House could nut justly be considered frivo lots or vexatious. (Left sitting.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER took the Chair this &ay at the usual hour. - Mr. RIDLEY COLBORN presented two petitions from Dissenters in Northmnberland, in favour of the Ca tholic Claitus. Mr. SYKES presented a petition from Doncaster against Negro Slavery, also a petition against the Friendly Societies Bill. Mr. ROBINSON moved for a return of the number of gloves imported since last year. On the motion of Mr. SLANEY, the Labourers Wages Bill was postponed until Monday next. Mr. BELL presented a petition from Tindal, in the county. of Northumberland, against the importation of foreign wool. Mr. TUTE presented a petition horn Castletown Del vile, in.favour of the Catholic Claims. , Sir JAMES GRAHAM presented a petition from Carlisle,. praying Mr a Repeat of the Stamp Tax on Receipts. Mr MORRISON presented a petition • from Macduff; for a bounty on Herrings. Lord CHANDOS presented a petition from Newport, against the importation of Foreign Corn. . On the motion of Mr. W. LAMB, the Malicious Injury to Property Bill cvas read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday next.—The Administration of Justice in Criminal Cases in Ireland, wa3 also ordered . to be read a second time on Friday next. ... Colonel CHICHESTER presented a petition._ from the county of Sussex, praying for a protection nu foreign wool. Sir A CAMPBELL 'presented a•petition from Glas guw against any further (=et's - Jima to the Roman Ca thoties. lIUME said that the petition did nut speak the opinion of one-fifth of the inhabitants of Glasgow. 111 r. W. HORTON presented a petition from the Eng lish inhabitants of Lower Canada to prove that the French inhabitants were not those alone who had cause to complain. Mr. BENETT presented a petition from Plurntree, in Somerset, praying for an alteration of the mode of taking the averages on Corn. On the motion of Mr. HOME DRUMMOND, the, Scotch Licensing Alehouse Bill was or d ered to be referre d to a Select Committee. Mr. TENNYSOpf moved that' the COMmittee on the East Iletfoul Disfrancbizetnent Bill should be poatponed until Friday next. The Committee on tile East Retford Disfranchisement Mill was postponed to Friday next. 'the third reading of the Scotch Salmon Fisheries' Bill was postponed to to-morrow. 'the Scotch Court of Justiciary Bill was read a third time, and passed. The Mad-houses' (Scotland) Bill was i . ad a third time; and passed: The Registry of Hornings (Scotland) was reported to be read a third time on Thursday next. The Crown Solicitor's Bill was read a third time and passed. The douse resolved itself into a Committee on the Stamps Promissory Note Bill, which was passed through the Committee, and the redort was orered to be received on Wednesday. The Report ori the Stamps' Allowances Bill was brought up. Th e Amendments were agreed to. HUME moved as an amendment, that the Distri butors of Stamps should have in lien of the present per centage, a per tentage of t. The Distriputor of Statnpz, Abeideen, received during the last year a per tentage 4)1 .1,638/., and there were many respectable individuals ia that town, who were ready to perform the duty for 250/.' per annum, and to give security to any amount. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, al though 2 ] - 1 1 might be a fair per centege on stamps of a cer• tain description, it would be too little for stamps of ano ther description ; and he. therefore suggested the prapriety of the Hon.lsletnber's • postponing the amendment until a future occasion, when the whole system of the stamp re venue would be revised. Mr. HUME persisted in his amendment„ and said that he should be happy if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give him (Mr. Hume) the patronage of the appoint went of Stamp Distributors, and he would undertake to provide persons to do it for a per ceutage of 2,1. — (Laughter.) _ _ After a few Observations from the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, Mr. Alcxander, Mr. Dawson, Mr. Alderman IVAithman, and Mr.litime, the further consideration of the report was postponed to to-morrow. The further consideration of the report of the Cities and Boroughs Poll Bill was postponed to tomorrow. The CoMMittee on the Pensions Act was postponed till to-morrow. The second reading of the Galway Magistrates Bgl wag postponed to Monday the 19th inst. • The third reading of the Bills of Exchange (Ireland) Bill was postponed to Thursday. The Committees of Supplies and Ways and Means were postpon.A to Wednesday. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. -A Message from the Lords announced that their Lord ships had agreed to the Corn (Isle of Man) Bill, and several Private Bills. ADJOURNED DEBATE. CATHOLIC QUESTION. On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, the order of the day furrestaning the Debate, was read, Mr. C. GRANT assured the House that he should not have presented himself to their notice if he could reconcile it to his sense of duty to give a silent vote. His first vote in Parliament upon this question was in favour of a similar motion, and having watched the progress of the question, the conclusion which he had come to was that the which he had then given and the votes which he had since given upon the various discussions upon this subject, were calculated to promote the best interests of the empire at large, by putting down all religious distinctions hi Irelrnd. If there was any portion of the picture drawn by the Mon. Member for Kerry, of the state of Ireland, accurate as it was, such as ought to call for the attentive cousideration of the House. So long as a fragment of the atrocious penal laws remained in operation, 60 long would there be dissensions in Ireland. The opponents of this motion said, that let whit-concessions would be, granted to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, they would nut be satisfied, and they rested their arguments upon the language held by the Catholics, and thus in fact urged the evils of the sys tem as a ground of continuing it. • The evil of legislation. in Ireland was that you gave to numbers what ought to he given to . property, and that being the case the system must be convulsive—influence was given to numbers, and a counteracting influence was denied to property. It had been said that our Constitution was extended to Ireland, and they wee e not satisfied, he for one did not know .what was maant by extending,,the British Constitntion to Ireland— he did not underst.md giving the British Constitution by piecemeal.—(Cheers.)—The House had-been told that the Catholics followed concessions step by step by demand,, for larger concession. The Hon. Baronet (Sir R. lugliss) had spoken of the concessions of right of private property, and of personal protection as examples of munificent bounty by the English Government, but he (Mr. Charles Grant) could look upon such concessions in no other light than as a restitution of part of those inalienable rights, of which the Roman Catholics had been deprived by an odious system of. penal laws, and he thought that their demands for further concessions never would and never• ought to cease until full and equal justice were done.—(Cheers.)—He would say if this country were to take up any position with respect - to the Catholics they ouglia to take one which was intelligible and not incon sistent, but when a position was taken up by which that influence was given to numbers which was denied to pro perty, there could be no other result expected but disunion and discontent. He was a Member of the Church of England by education and upon principle, and he was therefore anxious to remove from the Church Establishment that odium which the continuance of exclusive laws was calculated to attach to it. Those who opposed the motion upon the ground of their attachment to the Established Church,' whbether they thought they did their duty towards that Church, by holding it up to thr paople of Ireland as an ob ject of hatred and detestation. (Lend cheers.) He thought the real security for the Established Church was the granting the question, but he at the same time was willing to admit that this House had a sight to ask for such secu rities for the Established Church as the Roman Catholics could 'without a violation of their conseiences give— (Cheers)---and he bad no doubt that if such securities were required, they would be granted. He did not think the question of 'securities ought to be matter of negociation between the Legislature and the Roman Catho lics, but it was the duty of the Legislature to im pose securities, and then say to the Roman Catholics, " these arc the terms of our law, bring yourselves within the opertion of it, - if you think fit."—(Cheers.)—We are now - looking at the internal concerns of our country—we have our Finance Committee—we are, if I may use the ex pressit n, trimming our vessel, preparing for whatever dif ficulties may arise—foreign natiors were doing the same, but they were also tranquilizing their subjects at home.— (Clwers.).-We were not following their example—we, notwithstanding all our other efforts, were leaving a large portion of our people discontented. We were publishing to foreign:nations that we had a part of our Empire which was most vulnerable, and which by our con tinued system of oppression was likely 'not to be well affected to this country. I entreat the House to reflect what Ireland was and what this country ought to be. I will not revert to treaty or intentions, but place the claims of the Roman Cat:wiles of England and Ire land, not on the shifting principles of expediency, but on the unalterable and eternal principles of truth and justice. Those. principles nothing can ever shake nor refute. They form the snevitable and undeniable contract hetweon the governor and the governed—the ruler and his people. On this . principle the House of Commons sh ou ld decide ; and through this House, the people of England. Whether it is now or to-morrow that those claims shall be obtained, I know not. I see the prognostics of success in this House and out of this House. I might mention the two Universities. On the present occasion the University w o ( all.— (Cheers.) h C ho ,avaruir. that at g tT e r , ethil f ieu o i of Oxford sent only a partial petition ; and the University t r e si:e t a qta n inire t 'es si!t t lir o insa s )" . m o 'tuu t l : se l iti O n r o° ; : ni considern this House, typo i b ia e v c e o a n l s l i considered tl graceas a c o t f i g ( . I .B y ut be l car wo ri u ed ld , and ask these persons whether, if it must. be carried at -last, it would not be fairer to have no delay ? Would it not be fairer to Ireland, and also fairer to our own enstitnents. I asked if the qucetian must be when au act of justice will o ci ti i r Tied‘vb) sure of union with Ireland. If other nations have seen e ls r o os s i e ty e . ou t. ; Let us fill up the urea gth, let them see weakness, nut ie c t r h r e y lgue i na t now, that the spell had vanished, and that as we have conquered other nations, we can conquer ourselves. These are the principles Which the House should take into its considera tion, and which I shall leave it with confidence, assured of a fair and impartial decision. Colonel I)AVIES thought the measure now proposed would do no good to Ireland, and that there was a strong feeling again s t it i n E ngland. li e d en i e d th at t h e R oman ' Catholics had any abstract or indefeasible right to political concessions. If t h e douse has disposed to place much weight on abstract rights upon what principle were females excluded from political influence. There would be no ether right in the Roman Catholics but that which was grounded on the great principle of political expediency. On the whole he recommended a Select Committee to inquire into the question. Any measure recommended by sucha Committ e e, w ou ld necessarily carry great weight. Without the strength of some such recommendation, he did not think it advisable to grant these concessions, and if the measure was carried through this House, it would be stopped elsewhere, which would only - lead to the disappointment of the Catholics. Mr. HENRY GRATTAN conceived that not only the rights of Ireland, but the necessity of England . required that these concessions should be made to the Catholics. All the treaties enteeed into with the people of Ireland were broken, and they were now told that they had no claim to those concessions granted to them at a time when they were in a position to demand them. He attributed the greataniliority exercised by the priests in Ireland to the conduct pursued by the English Government towards that country. It was said that- the priests bad established a sort of spiritual allegiance ; but this was owing to bad laws, and hot to the effect of the C a th o li c re li g i on . They stated that the Catholics were unaccommodating and wished to encourage noting but opposition to the constitu ted authorities—this was thrown out by the other side of the House; but instead of this being so, the Pope went to the very utmost .of his power to imitate, and adopt the religious rule of the established Church of this Country ; he had even introduced into the Catholic form of prayer, a prayer for the health and welfare of King George, and that he might vanquish and overcome all his enemies. If the House looked to the milirary service of the people of Ire land, it would find that 450,000 had been raised out of that - country, all Catholics in the course. of fifteen years. The Hon Member adverted adverted to various pieces of evidence as he considered .hem for the purpose of supporting his side of the debate. In the year 1796 a messenger was sent to France by the Protestants of the North for the purpose Of being examinee respecting the character and influence of the Priests, and from his evidence, as well as from that given by dfferent individualS on various occasions, it ap peared that if the Clergy of Ireland was not then with, it wasnot,against the Constitution of England, and if it' was turned against it now that change had been made by the hoSti!e laws of this Country. A Protestant Bishop two of this country stated eowever in one of his works 4hat his religion and that moreover of his Catholic brethren were one. This was a painful subject to' dWell upon,. and be had neither talent nor eloquence to . enable him to do so in such a manner as the subject deserved; but be could assure the House that until the jarring that took place from day to day throughout the different king doilia was set at rest, the Constitution would never be at peace, nor the country rest in security. Nor were it their wish to be put dOwn by violence ; they might be won by conciliating measures, but in no other way were they to be dealt with. Lord ENNISMORE would say that the Jaws respect ing the Catholics were a disgrace to the age iu which we lived. They were repugnant to jusstice and to every feeling of humanity.—(Dear, hear, hear.)---ln calling the Legislature's attention to these laws, he hoped the heads of the Government would weigh well the prat , tical effects resulting from a continuance of these enact menta. In what respect were the penal laws useful, or likely .to be useful to the country ? They were, in the Noble Lord's notion, calculated only to degrade, both •n!o -rally and politically. Whilst these laws existed, property must be .insecure ; and su far from benefitting England in any whatever which he could conceive, they had been like a ,thorn in her side ever since they were passed. Coercion had been resorted to, but coercion .never would put down the Catholic Association ; it might for a While stifle its voice, but .there was a fire .kindled that never would be quenched until all religious and civil disabilities were removed. Emancipate the Catholics and the children of the Honourable Members of this House, as well as their ehildrens children, would bless the day on which such seer of peace and harmony had been thrown into the Irish soil. Mr. G. I3ANKES was surprised that the President of the Board of Trade, and the other Members connected with his Majesty's Government, who had used such strong language with respect to the state of Ireland, had not also informed the House of the particular manner in which these mischief were to be removed : he ought to have ac companied their description of the evil with some inforMa tion as to the specific remedy which was in their minds to effect a cure. Ile could not agree with the Noble Lord who on a former night said that he would prefer to hear the ,Catholic orators pour forth their violence in that House than in the Catholic Association. He could wit t4get that these were the very same orators who had libelled the dying moments of a late Illustrious Personage, and had used towards him cruel and malignant expressions and language which still remained unpunished, uncancelled, and unanswered. Mr. DENISON (we believe) supported the motion. He was aware that a strong feeling prevailed in many parts of the country against granting any further concession to the Catholics, but that feeling was daily giving way. Mr. NORTH said, that the real question was not whe ther they should grant concession to the Roman Catholics, but how Ireland was to be tranquillized.—(Cheers.)—lt mattered not, in his opinion, what the construction of the Treaty of Limerick was, or what had been the conduct of the Government at the time of the Union. Even sup posing that he should coincide with the views of the Right Bon. Secretary upon these points, he should still feel that his strongest argument remained untouched. The Hon. , and I,earned Gentleman entered into a detail of the anoma lous state of things which had grown up in Ireland under the operation of the present laws, and concluded an eloquent and powerful appeal, by calling on the House to do an act of justice to the country at large, as well as to the Catholics—to grant to the letter their just and long with held rights. Admiral EVANS opposed the motion in a speeh which excited considerable merriment in the House. After a few observations from Mr. CAREW, in supper of the motion, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that he still continued to adhere to his former opinions on this subject. Arguing the puestion as it would be argued in a Court of Law, he would ask whether it was likely that parties who wished to stipulate for political rights would confine .them selves to stipulations to wear a brace of pistols ? He cer tainly did nut think they would, and he therefore thought the Treaty of Limerick must be left out of the question.— ( Hear, hear. )—Yes, he did hear.— (Laughter.)—The Treaty of Limerick was never thought of until within the last year or two, and he thought his Hon, Friend who had brought it from the Court of Chancery in Ireland, might have as well have left it where it was. The professed object of the Hon. Baronet's motion was to produce union among all His Majesty's subjects, but le (the Attorney- General) was satisfied that that that object could not be at tained. From four Committ ee s of that House , whic h had sat upon this subject no good bad resulted, and if this tver e the first time this questi o n were before the Honse he would r aa say " Go into a Com m itt ee by all Means." — ( Lau ghter.) —He should, therefore, o ppose the motio n, beca u s e expe rience proved that no good could result f rom it. The Ca tholics had always rejected offers of con cession, for in 1813 xtvhasey,arepjercotfeuisi ion (v)fetooa,tiailstlaionudghi in securities, Alr. and n t t 's bill there there ryas also a clanse fur the appointment.of a commission, consisting of a Catholic Bishop, and one of His Majesty's Ministers, and another clause requiring the sanction of His Majesty to all Ecclesiastical Appointments by the Pope, and the Catholics had then authorised Lord Grenville to state their acquies- . cenco in those clauses, but when the matter was comi ng t o a successful issue, the Catholic' s rejected the clauses; and the BishopS with Dr. 'Milner at their head declared that the last drop of their blood before they would consent to the interference of a Protestant King, with the appoint ment of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.—(Hear, hear.) • —The matter, moreover, did not rest here, for in the year 1522, when Mr. Plunkett's Bill in which were the same clauses was introduced, the Catholics said they would not accept the relief offered by that Bill, but Mr. Canning and Mr. Plunkett replied, " We care nut whether they reject it er not—let them do so if they like—let, us do what is right.",(Cheers from the Opposition.)—Gentle men 'eight cheer, and though they might draw one in ferenee front the statement, he must lie less at liberty to draw another and a different inference. He was satisfied the House would not grant a boon to the Catholics with out requiring those securities which Pitt, Grattan, and Plunkett thought • indispensible. He should not trouble the House further upon that point, but he would ask if the Church Establishment was not at the time of the Revolu tion made part and parcel of the Constitution of England. The same principle was recognized by the Act of Seat ; meat which required that the Crown, the Minister s of ,t Crown, the Members of both Houses of Parlia me nt, and the persons holding places of trust should be Protestant.o It was now proposed t o abrogate that principle by a 11 u s. ing Catholics to sit in Parliament and to hold ',lame of trust —to neither of which could he ever a grees A 1\ oble Lord opposite had swirl, the other night, that be was not a friend to Popery, fur he lied a machine to beat it down —the public Press.—(Cheers,) lie begged leave to inform the House, that that machine cut two ways, and there could be no doubt that in wielding that machine the Catholic Priest would be found to be as active as another.— Cheers.) The Protestant Church bad another sscurityy in the Bible Societies; but it should not be forgotten that the Missionaries of those Societies were designated by the Pope as strolling players, who were a plague and p etilenco which ought to be avoided.—(Laughter.) Wha benefit ' could be derived from the printing press if the Po, would not permit the Catholics to read what issued fi.eu (Cheers.) —What . would the Rectoral found( , of •the London University say if his Majesty's Irish subjests-Were• litx )) prevented from reading the hible.--CCheera and Laog i; ' k —..-The letters of J, K, L, (every one k new w h o . 1, ,,bt it was) stated that th e Archbi s h o p o f D u bli n h a d no riaittbc his title. Thi s s t a t emen t s h owe d t h at t h e Roma'. de de lies considered, as intruders in those offices' to W . 1 3, fill Roman Catholi c Bi s h o p s were ent i t l e d , but cOl'ofttC King had conf e rred upon' the Reverend Pa e lateso Established Chur c h. Th e sam e c ontro l ex i ste d in '", s' over - the Church, as ex i s t e d i n 'E ng l an d. The 110 ~ pointed the Prelates, and any one who appealed tots was deemed guilty of hi g h treason . , Il e thoue.e ~ in no Catholic country was such an extent of Po ' to granted to any religion, not being the religion of th, e IP as this bill would give to the C a th o li cs o f Irelaayo coald not agree to a proposition w hi c h wou ld a ole the surrender to the Catholics of th e C orona ti on 01! vio r the surrender of the Bill of Rights, and, ip fact, to t ue v ;p render at every thing that was valuabl e i n th e Cong it iiol4 —(Cheers.)--For these reasons he was opposed 1 0 ~0 1 4 into the Committee. The Protestants of Englasal u ad: never 'consent to Surrender to intimid a ti on th ose 4 1 0', previleges which were to them their most invaluable right. The Right Hon. Gentleman then sat dowO ° lhud cheers. ~ ci Mr. WALLACE said, th a t h e b e li eve d in b"of science that nothing lik e i n ti m id a ti on was use d, as i gument to induce the House to agree to the motioti o , he thought it Was rather unfair to intimidate Hon , ro Remit from using any argtiment they might think 1, I, upon so momontous a question. If the Catholics land w e r e to underst an d th a t th e H ouse, b y refusiogo,,, into a Committee, had made a final determinatieOp this subject, what, he wonld ask, , must be the efkai They would place their reliance no longer in the i'/,',la or justice •of Parlipment,.b u t l oo k t o th emse l ves 0 a : own resources for relief. The Honourable Membes caeded to address the Houie at g r e a t l eng th ; but fo: r r low tone of voice, and frOm the great confusion Ole" 14 vaiAnled, M lie was inaudible in the gallery onourabhaMEMßEß, whose . name we e. oo „f ascertain, and stated himself to h e a reprasen t a tive" Irish county, supported the motion. I,io' l - Mr. Secretary HUSKISON th en rose . He di9fri. any intention of founding his support of the proposed t e , e' , , upon the Treaty of Lim er i c k, w hil s t. he had the locr . urging arguments, and a d vanc i ng lemons deduced fe °a lai, existing state of the country. With respect to the f ita, supposed to have been given to the Catholics at then the Union : he way ready to admit that reports lit'" gone abroad calculated to excite hopes in the Ca ,0 although he was convinced that Mr. Pitt had ns t V any express promise. . There was no pledge—but r i had been a great disappointm en t-- a h e , h a d on,fors'ed 1 casions expressed his sentiments on this question, s "' solemnly declared that he had retired from every disc i l with au increased convi c ti on o f t h e j ust i ce o f thec i' , a put forward by the C a th o li cs , an d w h atever m i g ht l if result of that ni g ht' s di v i s i on , h e s h ou ld retire ori',l firm Lelia* that the settlement of this question could much longer delayed.--(Cheers.)—The Right Hoe' i proceeded to reply to the speeches made in the course ° ea debate on the other side, and declared that nothing ii , in his opinion, establish th e ascen d ancy o f t h e CA C, priesthood in Ireland, but th e s y s t em o f peasec uti° ' therto - pursued. , Mr. BROUGHAM now ruse, anti said that lie ,i,° detain the House but a few minutes, fur he thougb t a i the able apcecnes which had been delivered on his P li question, in the course of the discussion, and particu h , ! after that delivered by the Right Hon. Gentleman TO:, just sat down, he wou ld b e i ntru di ng upon the 1 4 ° l i t he took up much .time in giving his opinion, Ile "0: nut go back to the Treaty of Limerick, the name of Atli was at no pr em i um i n the House,—(a laugh.)--a°°,o 1 they had-nothing•to do with it—but that that thei tr i I superfluous to it. fit\ would enter into no train o' i i soiling, to show that where a treaty betweem a weak ' 4 . , 4 powerful party was .ent ere d i n t o , an d w h en t h e ter l 'd that, Treaty were ambiguous that Treaty should he itM ' strued in tavour of th e weeken patty. I u the wor se 0 arguments, those Gentlemen who were opposed t(1, i d opinions which he supported in th e course of the dis c t asautned that there. as no danger i n ma tt e rs as tb'eeo a present stood.—(Cheers.) But thi s was au assot il / 4 01' nut capable of being sustained by facts. He must sal that the Right Honourable • And Learned Geti t o d (the Attorney-General) had no t arg u e d the - P t/i question in so statesman-lik e .. a .. m atmer 311 ii i. Right Honourable Member for Oxford. , .The Rigbs i l l Gentleman had referred to th e d anger to be effeeWt o t; the Bulls issued by the Vatic an , an d d we lt u pon the " 7, , likely to result if they •wure permitted, as if the POP e .,,e not at present issue those Bulls, and as if th ose Bulls'' not obeyed by the Catholics of Ireland. Could thigg, main as they now were.? No one who had spoken ag'; the motion, asserted th a t th ey cou ld . However o'l'4" men might be to preserv e th e C o n st i tu ti on, no twelve!') in that House would be got to say that things could retn o ol they were. He conceived that passing the Catholic Bill ~, the great security, though he was not unwilling to enter t' t ' i , the consideration of other securities. He rejoiced .d i a the discussion was brought - to a termination "); so much temper ; and he hoped, that at whichever 'til 'success might fall, it would. not be attended with t/ ! l a' coming exultation. It was a fearfully important subiti embracing the peace of one part of the empire, 0 the security of the rest. He hoped before one hour vas' 0, the hopes of the Catholics would be gratified, and tha t a i House would have the consolation of knowing that it il , Contributed to the peace, happiness, and security of empire. —(Cheers.) THIRD EDITION. SUN-OFFICE, Pipet. °l:loc h ' Tile Gallery was then cleared for a Div isic , when there appeared for Sir FRANCIS BIJAP EI'I 27 2 Against it------ 266 6 Majority TATC ERSA L L's rims vAI DEII,I3Y. 1 to i agst Duke of Rutkmd's Cadland 5 to 1 agst Hon. E. Petre's The Colonel S to 1 agst'Lord Exeter's Zinganee (Folly colt) 8 to 1 agst Mr. Nowell's Giraffe (Amy colt) 10 to 1 agst Mr. Champion's Rough Robin 11 to I agst Mr. Houldsworth's Lauubtoniaa 16 to I agst Mr. Thornhill's Merchant 18 to I agst Mr. Payne's Johanna Southcote cult 20 to 1 agst Duke of Grafton's Omen 20 to 1 agst Mr. 1. Sadler's Challenger 30 to 1 agst Sir C. Coote's Oppidan 30 to 1 agst Lord Grosvenor's Navarin OAKS. 3 to 1 agst Mr. Rugers's Zoe to I agst Lord G. IL Cavendish's Ridicule filly 6 to 1 agst Mr. Nowell's Rosalia 8 to 1. agst Lord Jersey's Trampoline. 14 to 1 agst Mr. illytton's Lestelle 15 to 1 agst Mr. Peirse's Sarah, Sister to Swiss 2 to 1 agst Delta DONCASTER ST. LEGER. 5 to 1 apt Mr. Armitage 's Velocipede 8 to 1 avt Colonel King's Bessy Bedlam 11 to 1 agst Mr. l'e tre ' s C olonel 20 to 1 agst Mr. Watt's Conlon —Miss Cum&ld TIIE ARMY. er A dew:lin:lent of the 69th, or So i t uth Lincolnshire tb e went of Foot, marched from Trim for Caotlebar ° ll tl' rN iu-st. %o Truoinrof the 2d, or the Queen's Dragoon 6°l o arr Ou r at Cahir from Dublinor on North the 6th Br tis in. Troop st h Drig -1) marchedof the . 2d, marched front New Ross for Dublin on the 6th in.st' ~ . . Rig stated with great confidence, that by way of re v r nainbuco, ad v i ct s . have been received from Rio de Jaliel of the ti tlt of. March, :.even days later than the last adv il ";:c and that it brings of the Emperor having separated Crown o f P or t uga l from that o f Br az il, an d abdicalo for ever in favour of his daughter, who is betrothed to Don Miguel. if this should prove the case, it so u ' lt ic some of the difficulty which arises from the present 0,05 of affairs between Brazil and Portugal, and in this view P o caused the Bonds of both to rise, the former to 60+ t c t latter to 54,i. It is now stated that every thing was q a' at Lisbon on the 29th ult. This moment, llauiburghpapers of the 6th, are rea l py the steam vessel from thence. They contain a Pft„ r il n ation of t..;ount Wit gens t e i n d a t e d H ea d Quarters, 628, in which he requests the inhabitants of the rri" t be ,ailities of Moldavia and Walachia, ,to .receive e li- Russian army as friends that their laws and r de r gin shall be preserved to them, as they come l av e the unavoidable circum s t an c e of th e difference they . , ioe , with Turkey, and will maintain the most rigid f o r General Barclay de Tolley, has set out from S it on, Petersbnrgh. • FRIG. P4llk Stork Consols, 3 pc Gov. Stock, c tivr Cent Dtt, N e . r; „,,,lioYal Canal .0 Lauf 9.14 Deb. 4 Otlicr NIGH ' nOrni hg •, Eb% MOi! RUS At len NICHoLA tion of 1 CrosScd ti received tl important Petersburg th e 27th Turkish 9 nifesto acc duct desti the two otter alter arms. TI vention ol have been ~tihich on it might It l3 l. al —E u di s p ee was l-lort l Russia rei The .Pox - treacherou War. But has its lin the dignit) tights, and eribe►i to " It is fullCst ekte Peratile ii celitidenee 'lave orde Diviue pry late r the n llations." After en detail, the t heless, is Watts ; eno °bey its c uhited \Nit' " Lastly, I lolls which a July, has not l otions of thc hussia to sac dccideti affrol poses upon founded, t• strictly °fifty ki act in con( ! if London, a' :stvcosnincnd '"hick d o l ion 4, f its situatioi !'f . the Treaty 43 nature and "The Ern] %taiiied the l ' 1 " , them fr( ( 7 1 a pure co c4traordinaz • (C u ,It i qttr,ignc,l ti A l th i Zi ) „ wi! ing n; t J cn ti s "lee ar 4404 e ford • •• °• , loe gtif g tte. Ar t 11c1 • jewsi ty ,t .rut 7 4 , ace th suci Tr: c : .e e 4 Z ee , .kent • afle riti cat !)f t i ler ! Atil t 41 et out tha n tendi n ,, with o ceasiu lobtiiityrvc,t For v