The Sun. — London, England, 1819-12-09 00:00:00

whicil be , of 11)6 ne Yet i ' li ib ex ary lice, II : „ in in - I o f of (bag e Floe ilre the(' s e all d ie lich e f d°t)Woo o r to keel' lways be eci Ay"! and et ost ign; j b e unity of come to creasing reduc e of Or additioo lber to betor c ' vet) to , p l o yeh t p o rts () ,ueb • Luc coo t ; co" %v olt! bolt og atne be. I he g O A t re c ool' mid ft .h olds e rsent posith i A g. Pt f` 4 " le ir Alt e a do key the ally t he , Ne, ' L i 0 01 ; as t he, hoge L .° , re no een 11 r",l Fsoc i;; way t ° , to ti'v v bee° N 8s re• nis de er N ere '- to 0 ": ist i Itit S i f f r)1.11 (1 beat 11 ;1 4 1. ; te (14' V ° eta b e fore "°' solute' OE. bo ,ft SIC : haog 3 pit por.• • 44' io the Marines, 1 - le had long served with bat corits, and knew them to have rendered the •most important services to their country. At the time ot th e - mutiny in the Navy, they had prevented tt:e fleet from being carried to Ireland, and saved ti-e officers from being massacred. On every oc 'casino, from 1770 to the presetx time, their cou rage, zeal, and loyalty, had been conspicuous, and he Must deny that increasing their 'lumbers was nap thing like an augmentation of the army . . Mr. CHOKER thought it would have been better Inr all parties had the present motion beeu defer teei till ibe ordinary and ex , raOrdinary estimates had been laid on the table: Ile would then have i4o t all the documents he wanted, with the excep tion of those t h at were to show what had been the expenditure in 1791, 1792, and 1793, and a lete ion could have been made for these instead of th e general motion now before the House, which .‘votild occasion touch trouble, not only in search lug for the first-mentioned papers, but in produe , itig those which would have been brought forward if no such motion had been made, and which innst have appeared on the face of the estimates for the year. Though the estimees for the years -1791, 1792, 1793, appeared so exceedingly small, 'compared with those of late.years, the Honoora ble Gentleman must k now that at the ...Jul of each of them there had been a large accumulation Of Navy Debt ; which became at length so great that it was found necessary to fund it. The amount of the debt so incurred ought to be added to the *Mount of the estimates for those three years. 'When on this subject, whether they looked to the itze of the ships, which the- Hon. Member bad tot taken into his consideration-- Mr. Hume said he bad distinctly mentioned the rates of the ships. - Mr. CRACIIR knew the Hon. Member had spoken of the rates of the ships, but ne had not looked to the size of them, which had mock in- creased since 1793, and which of course made a rtnsterial difference in the expence. His gallant Pliend bad made no objection to the production of the papers, and theretole lie would say no more bu. that he should be tih!e lo prove, that %Too the whole (o'er ships, taking into considera tion their increased size and durability, were built cheaper now thflo in those happy am! golden times to which the Hon. Member had called the totesition of the [loose, Inotoi,li be differed from his 'Gallant Friend (S;r J Yorke) in what hi: bad advanced that night, be was not sorry -that he hall spoken; as it gave him an opportunity of Paying a well deserved compliment to the tot 'emitting attention which he had paid for so many years, to what might be called the Civil Service of the Navy. Much benefit bad been derived from his exertions.. With respect to the ship-budding now in progress, he would Prov e to' Gallant Friend, that that principle bad not been mwerially - departed from which had been acted upon with his approbation when they Lad . the pleasure to see him , at the Admir a lty, anti not a vessel had been pin on the stocks but in Pursuance of that system, to which he (Sir J. Yorke) had been a party. They all knew that ships would, its he course of time, fall into 41t , day, but that 130 \vere now being built was ,that c tr . whi c h h e was no aware , an d h e cou ld not on ecive where the Hon. Gentleman had obtained Iris information. Jo deciding on what ought to he done in this respect, they had not been led 31 Way by the present naval depression of any fo keign Power; nor, on the other hand, had they &offered themselves to be influenced by the atten tion which any toreigo Power might find itself able to bestow oil its navy ; but they had taken *hat he thought a proper medium, by determin. jug on. the number of ships which it would be desirable to possess in case of a new war, and t hey were merely engaged ill Completing that !min tier, and not in building; at random, as had been supposed, or over.manutacturiog men of war, as apprehended by his Gallant Friend. He was-glad to have am opportunity of speaking of the case of Sir Robert Seppings. For that meritorious indi v'irlr;tal, lila G dant Friend could not feel more respect that' was common to the whole Navy tiard. He \.v*oultl state what had been done in t his case. Th e Admiralty bad last year recoil'. tuended to the Prince it eget)t the grant of a son) money in favour of Sir R Sepping. This re commendation had been approved of by iris Royal tiehness, but Of course this circumstance could b i , , °l be expected to reach the ears o f his Gallant before the meeting of Tarliament. He could, however, assiire him, that the subject had 'lever been knit sight of, and a grant of 50001. been resolved upon, in addition to the ho nour, which had been mentioned by his Gallant Sir B. MARTIN would take upon himself to say, rim When the Papcis wer e p ro d uce d, the Hon: 14 vntleman would be tound incorrect in all his poitsts_ The documents could not be produced vvithont gieat difficulty and labour, but what could De done, should be done. Two years ago the ton,„,itice on the Public Expenditure, from a l audable anxiety to effect every possible retrench- Ittent, had kept him (Sir B. Martin) for more than two hours before them, on the subject of an k nhappy clerk whom they thought it might be P r acticable to get rid of. If such Returns were t:t he -culled for, it mu s t no t exc i te surpr i se i t an i ncrea se of the Establishment should be found accessary, Mr, HUME said, it had been denied that his st atements were correct. lie pledged himself (and this he wished to be remembered) that they (I%votiltl mot be denied whe n 11.. e Papers w ere pro ueed. With respect to the difficulties that 1 . • In the way of their p ro d uct i on, h e thought th e ~ to so trifling that for t pounds he would under •'nkC to pay for them himselt . .—(A latigh.)--41e ‘v o , ttrl be a t the expence of producing them hi nt . it 'll', if th e G ent l emen oppos i te would allow him li "vebs t o them. The difficulties started were but fit ' !node in which Mini s t ers t h oug h t i t expe di ent " troother• inquiry. 41 r. Cuottett remarked, on wh a t had just fallen ere `n the .Hott. Ge n tl eman , t h at t h e papers wh i ch I ' 4 ll just called for were to be ranted ;—the gti advice had been g iv en t o hi m as to the.mode 4 , ll ‘‘rhicli he should c a ll for t h em , i n or d er that lie accomplish his object, and this he called ta titteuip t to smother intioiry. He rath e r th ong h t course pursued by himseh and his Honourable 4 4d, might with mote justice be stalled court- ing jut - inky. He retied that the accounts totild be produced as easily as the Hon. Gentleman sup posed. • one paper it would he very difficult to make out, and he doubted whether it could be correctly given at last. Ed-tough, however, would, be,prodoced .to prove that the Honourable Gen tleman . was mist a ke n i n a ll bi g statements) and that the accounts were at present !apt better, and with more economy than formerly. Mr. Hums said, he had not called for the par ticulars, but for the total and aggregate amount. Sir J. Yorme was glad to have received the in formation afforded by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Croker), Without wisLing to make any invidious comparisons, he, could not help remarking, that a short time ago the stun of 50001. had been granted to a Bow -street Magistrate, Mr. Graham. He did not see how the services of an individual, in examining . a criminal, could be compared with those rendered to the country by Sir Robert Sep ping. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exche quer would hive no objection to substitute 10,0001. for 50001. in the intended grant, for the latter sum he thought a very paltry -reward for Sir R. Sepping. The CHANCELLOR of the ExCHEQUER said, the grant of 50001. had-been proposed to the Re gent, with the united sanction of the Admiralty and Treasury. With respect to the comparison which had been made, he had only to remark that Sir R. Sepping, with the honour conferred upon him, would receive the intended grant, retain ing all the emoluments of ins situation, while Mr. Graham, retiring from ill health, received the 50001.-granted to him in lieu of all the cumin menta accruing to him from the situation he had The motion was then agreed to. Mr. CALLAGHAN trini , ed for an account of the qn.lntity and r-al vtine of all lititis'A goodo im pot ed t,ro Ireland, t•ubject to the ad valorem duty .1 . 10 per mg. under the 6th article of the Act of Union ; and of all woolleirmatitilacrnres imported into Ireland, and known by the name of old and new draperies, together with•the amo un t o f duty paid on th e same by virtne of the said Act in each year, up to the sth January, 1819, Fie also moved for the pronuction of siutil , tr accounts of Irish goons imported into En2lan , t, and for a re turn of the number of stills at work in 1817,1815, and 1819, specifying the contents of • the same, F i nd the duty paid thereon in each )ear. After a few words hom the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr, W. PARNELL, Nlt C HUTCHIN• SON, and Mr. L FORSTER, tie ;oil wa. agreed to.---The papers were then bron 4 ht up and or dered to he printed . . SEDITIOUS MEETINGS PREVENTION BILL. On the motion or Lord CASTEhREAGH, the House.resolved itself into-a Committee on the Seditious Meetings Prevention Bill. Lord ALTHORP objected 10 that part of the seventh clause which went to make a meeting , il-. legal if a person not resident in the parish remain ed there after being ordered to depart, and hoped an amendment would be moved, . . Sir J. MAJoatnANKs suggested an amendment, to make the meeting illegal if it. opno , ed the re moval of the individual ordered to depart. Mr: DENMAN, Lard :MILTON, Lord FOLKE. 811 d Mr„ Condemned the clause as it at present:A:nod, and forcibly poittted, out the eyils,-miscOOCeptions,- and'inctopiistencies that might he 'expected to arise from it. The clause was explained and defended hyLurd CASTLE REAGH. Mr. L. FotisTec, Mr, BATHURST,andthe ATTORNEY-GENERAL, MO it was finally 4tnentted, after much discu s sion, So As to make those meet ings illegal tr-otn,tVhiCh a.persou L who had no right to be present,,x_chtsed to depart,. on being ordered by the Magistrates to retire. Mr. DENMAN Moved to insert a proviso that this provisioushould not extend to County Meetings, and such as were excepted - in the first clause of the Aiter a. words from Lord CASTJ.EREAGU, Lord A. HamILToN, Sir. J. SRBRIGHT, Lord MIL TON, Mr. ELLISON, the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, Mr. DCNMAN, tile ATTORNEY-GENERAL; and Mr. PRIMROSE, Mr. Dentudn's proviso Was negatived, and the original clause was agreed to, as amend. ed, without a division. Mr..; P. GRANT objected to the clause for dig persing meetings in case the removal of a stran ger should be obstructed. If the meeting did not obstruct the removal, and the resistance should be on the part of the stranger, why should the as sembly be dissolved ? Lord CASTLEREAGH and the SOLICITOR-GENE RAL contended that no additional power was given by.the clause to Magistrates ; and that it was so worded, that ibe tib?( ruct ion must be offered by the meeting to authorize its dispetsion. The clause was then agreed to. 011 the clause for indemnifying Magistrates in cases where they should have been compelled to use force to disperse meetings, • Mr. DENMAN wished to know whether Magis trates were to be protected in case lives shotild have been lost in consequence of resistance. If so, this ►.• as a new principle, which was not con tained even in the Riot Act, - for resistance by that Act was only made felony without benefit of clergy, but did not authorize the destruction of lives. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended that the principle was not a new one, and that the exist ing 14w allowed Magistrates to employ force in the dispersion of 111egal meetings. • Mr. DENMAN begged 10 derlyili toto the law of his Hon. and Learned Friend. The ekisting law gave no power to Magistrates to put down lawful meetings by force, as it would be proved by a re ference to Hawking' Pleas of the Crown. Mr. J. P. GRANT bad yet to learn that any Court of Law bad come to a decision on that sub ject. On the contrary, Lord Chief Justice hale, speaking to that quest on, laid dotvn, that it re quired-the force of an Act of Parliament to protect Magistrates againit the eharge of murder who bad. acted on the interpretation of his Hon.and Learned Friend (the Solicitor-General). And was it noe to go to the sem Id, that whenever any assembly met for public discuisian, Magistrates were en titled to let loose troops of horse upon the peop!e ? (Hear !)—He certainly felt warm upon the sub ject, for be bad never heard a more monstrous pro position, than that the Elous,c Should becalled upon to legislate that Usigistrates „should be authorised. to disperse a legal assembly by forte, and to com mit impunely the crime of murder !—(Near•, hear, hear !)—No lawyer, he. was sure, had ever beture . expressed such an opinion; he was sorry - that any thing which would countenance it shOulil now be sent forth to the world. It it was so intended, however, let he done openly, and let the (douse at once enact that it was liiwenl for Aiagistrates to disperse legal assemblies,"rind that . if murder ensued they were not to be considered _ - - The ont-ICIToR-GF.IstEriAL stated, alai by' the statute of Henry VII; Magistrates were invest.' ed with the same pms'er of •dispersing unlawful assemblies as in the .case of riots. Jr was clear not only that they had, but that they must have, the power of suppresSiug trulaWful meetings by other means than the apprehension of Offend rug , individnAls. For soppositrg, as had lately been the case, public assemblies to consist of 50.000 persons, how could they apprehend them all or disperse them, if they were not allowed to have recourse to other means ? If they could do it by mere apprehension let them first try that as it was fit ; hut it it did not succeed, they were entitled to use the degree of force requisite for the object, • bot no more, so that they acted tinder a 'cry heavy,. responsibility, for if they employed more force than was necessary, they could be called to ac count for so doing before the tribunals of . the conntry.---The clause was then agreed to. On 'the Clause for regulating places where lec tures are delivered and debates are held, The iVrTORNEY-GENRRAL said, that in 'order. to show thn.necessity. of such a clause, he should read one or two of the questions .whiett had been discussed, for the last three months, at debating places in the Metropolis, where people were ad mitted on paying a shilling at the door. The firit was entitled Jack, Ketch, and consisted of the fol lorviug subject :—" Which of the three following professions has a grater leniency to harden the human • heart, the Gravedigger, 'the - Hangtn,m, or the Tarrson i" He need not add how tke,ques-.. tion had been decided. The next was—" Whe ther Mr Justice Abbott's refusal to stiffer Car. Irle to read t he Scriptures on his trial teas to be attributed to sincere reverence for that work, or to the. fear that its supposed absurdities :sort falsehood should he publicly exposed ?" ‘Vere not such disenssions most pernicious, and deserving to be pot down',? He then read a passage from " The Black Dwarf," en which Mr. ‘Vooler said, that Reformers wanted concentration s that they should•only feel for, Reformers : that there slronld he a communication by (lelegates : that per.... sons of their o,vn description should be employed to attend meetings, and to address the people that they should" have Monthly breakfasts,. and if possible 11 idical reading rooms in evety town. It was to meet this evil, and to prevent sue h /pro ceedings, that the present ci seas introduced. Similar provisions had been 'enacted in 1817 and 1796, and the 36th of the King had been almost copied vetbatim, only extending it to places at wijCh persons publicly read, and empowering Ma gistrates to demand admission to hear' what passed, and if they found that sedition or blasphemy were tats lit, to disperse the,assetnbly. • Sir Howl% [;I a RON inquired whether any pr(Y7e cution had heel) institured against • the persOuS vi?lit.r..had printed the papers and questions to which, : •the Jfioo. and Learned Gentleman had alluded ? The,ATTuaNeY-GENnem. said, that no prose - cation had f)een instituted, but that a tine Bill 'had been found against one of the individuals. - 141 r. J. P. GRANT contended, that > s the clause was worded, it would put down every meeting, of Geritlernen Who paid for the room in which they assembled, or whit took any refreshments. The ATTORNE AL filld LOrdCASTL ERE AGH contended, that it had no such effect, ahil would only put down those debating societies formed for the purpose of raising and collecting money. Atter some ob'ervations from. llr. Denman and 'Mr. Phillips, the clause was agreed to. On the clause flirecting that any action or suit .against magistrates, or peace officers, 'must be commenced three months after the fact commit ted, wliiist suits against individuals for offences agaiosi the Act must be' commenced within six months, Lord FOL.KBSTONR objected that it would thus be put out of t►►e po►ver of individuals wrongly accused by Magistrates, and whose trial would not come ou for six months, if they were acquit ted, to bring an action fur dani.l,v-s. Mr. G. LAMB moved an amendment, that the time for commencing an action against is Migis trate be extended to six instead of three mouths. After some conversation betwtcn Mr. BA THURST, Mr. BARHAM, ti►e ATTORNEY-GCNERAL, HMI Mr. J. V. GRANT, the amendment was agreed At the suggestion of Mr: J. P. GR4lsi'r, the clause directing-that persons bringing au action against the Magisirates in Scotland, should pay treble costs i❑ case they failed to establish their charges, was put on the same footing as that for En k land, and it was settled that the costs should only be double, The remaining clauses were agreed to without any observatiou t . Lord CASTLEREAGH then brought in seven ad ditional .clauses. The first provided, that after proclamation was !wide at any meeting for " its dispersing, it should be lawful for any person le gally present to seize and carry befor e a. Nj agis trate or Justice of the Peace .any person illegally attending. littouGHAm supposed ir ,8 lodicrous case; if every legal man seized his radical a i a meer.iiig--:-14y of 1500—of which two-thirds were radicals, then the 500 loyal persons having'paired oil with their captures, thete would still remain 500 . disaffected to earry,on the business. of the assembly. Lord. CAATLERSAGH reproved the Honourable Member, who had just broken up the Committee on account of the lateness of the hour, and now came down to delay it by cutting a joke on the first clause.that was proposed. It was absurd to argue as if it were compulsory on the loyal to, seize each an offender. The Clause was then agreed to, as were the fol lowing 4"-", 2. The Bill not to extend to any meeting holden in any room or apartment, &c. any thing to the contrary not withstanding. 3. Not to extend to any meeting for the'eleetion of a Mem bcr of Parliament for any county, city, stewat try, borough, &c. holden between the issuing of a writ and before its return. 4. Any subdivision of a parish or district to he subject to .thosi l me regulations as the parish.or district itself. 5. ,All flecturiiirY fines; P.4alties, atoberists,•abute Z.lll. may .. .be rei3Overed by'acfion of dehli; with various regulations as to proceedings in English and Scotch CouCis._ ~ 6. Al! pecuniary hues, &c., to he appropriated'one-Alf 10' the Informer'and the other inoiety to the Crown.' - • . -- -• 7. The measure to he in etrect in London -and twenty miles round one day after, and throughout the rest of the kingdom in ten days after the Act passed ; and to be in force for five years, or six week's after the oneeting of :the first en , suing Parliament after the expiry of that period. These clauses being severally agreed to, ivills .only a brief cenversatioo on the .34, whieb Mtr: BARING and Mr. BEOUGIIAM thought would inter fere with canvassing previous tcytheissne of..w,rits for new Members, - and Lord .CAsTLERRAGn de.. tended as , repealing the la w riiiring„ele : ctioits, 4,..a taking away no right p re vi ous l y enjoyeil,., .. . Mr. BARING made :soine obscryations on the.. indecent contests r e l at i ve to ,jail and other fees., , now so ofteti brought into Publiz and disgracefid,... dispute, which he wished some of the Crow n. Lawyers would legally define and - settle.. .- Lord Atm-10RP said,. from the Papers. before the House there appe a red to b e no cause for;alartn- or iosurrectiOn, except in a few .parts of • a few. counties. The'Noble Lord (casticreagit)Jhought : otherwise ; but the question for the Commbtre or) consider was, ‘vbctiter such a measure as now proposed should'or should not be ext,euded over the whole country. - It not necessary in,the..case Of a seizure for amts, it .coold not he in the . case _ oftdoing away the danger of krge mc.....tiugs. T he - effect, however, of the c l ause l ie i nten d e d to pro, ' pose, would be,. not to afford facilities 'tor intrud ers to escape; but to say, the Aligistrates from.,,, danger and the people frosts greater oppressiontis.; than would,otherwise he practised on them. He -, felt the necessity of being as iliel as: passible, hut- the Rill being a 1311 of a restrictive nature, be.., „insinered it should only he applied to those coun ties which were known to. he partially dist urjicri.. In the operation of the clause he intend to pro-. hose, he wonitl include within the me. g ‘ , l the Act the counties of York,(Wesr Ridioo.,ChrHiire, Lancashire, Durbant, Northumberland, CMrine.r -I,tod, , ITarwickshire; Rehire iv, La, ;ilk, and: Der b,, and the town of Nottingham, and all such oilier places.as the Lords Licutenatos of couotofs,,: might conceive Necessary to .be...placed wi:hin ~ns operation. , Mr. CARTWRIGHT thought.the tranquil parts.,6l the country would object to this a-60ff- he-next affected, if the-pleasure were-not general. , i‘Jr...llosity-wooD said, ,his constituents, wilt Wt re as-loyal a.body and as iutleitendext a body -any other •in aingiand, would:feel themselves sorely,aggrieved by the.enactment of.„any, general. measure on the subject, • ,_ . • Mr, W.,IAMID3 felt , satisfied it would be necesr ••• • • • nary, tor „the Government to earey..t;jth then'. iii the ..adoption .of their.. ptopOs.ed „measures, the wishes of the sound qud . loyal pli.t..tion of . the peo. , ple. But when he recollected the measures of 1817, antl.',4lre" objections urged,agamoheni, he could.,no,t, help saying.,_that to pply measurts . severity , where•Li,ecreunnesessary would only•,. be. to. excite ir.ritation,.6l4l lead' to no usef.ttl flue pose. The rights of the C. own andth,e_People might be abused, and should in such a. case be li - - Mired ; but when, us in the present case,.the whole rights of the People were to.be inwadfd, it would be nowise to disturb that whiCh was, well, anti to eniElanger,tlte peace - of those who needed no such provisions to' insure their trangoillity. Danger existed in the ma‘nolacturing Counties, but where was the probability that: this would tend to apart of the populatiOn very diffe . iently situated 'He.believed•they could nal be practised in (hose phices with any prospect of success. ritati:;n and discontent %rOuld be excited in the' minds of the people of those counties W h o felt their loyalty, and could only conceive they were wrongfully visited for the errors or the sins of sinful counties. Mr. C. GRANT Pdinilted the necessity of carrying along with those measures as - much of public opi nion as was possible, hut the first object was to carry their purpose into effect. No Viet could be more . plainly fuoved than thttiecessity upon which they were legislating, tie would not now discuss 'he extent of the danger, as Ile might assume teat it VHS admitted by the Hou.4e. roege dan gers did not arise merely from distress ; system had appeared Wife!' was not the creature of distress, though it had availed itself of the advantages supplied from that source% Tile question therefore was, whether, with the con viction that such a spirit was. in existence, with a knowledge of its increasing. activity in making converts, and of the distress which constitutcd its chief aliment, they should. anticipate the danger or leave the country, not to the chance of a small evil, but_ to_the cbances ..of ao.evil growing to that extent which might soon require; not mea sures of prevention, bur measures of suppression and dispersion. Two engines were employed for the propagation Ora sysiciiiiithe'bbjt:ct of which was national and_not.:_local,:those -engine's were public meetings and , Could any one imagine that local Bills would succeed in puttin it doWn---;or Was - 11 Viol mote 'probable' that they Woirld - have to follow the - dis'affeeted with unequal stops into whir counties 3 It was, necessary to destroy their hopes,,arvi_shew. them that l'ailia rtient was determined Ilvertish theit' designs. An lion. Gent. had said,-that ;the system ,could nut b e C a rri e d into other p:iitTs of the country, but he Was iTor willthg"'ied the experiment tried, l,ow mod) poison the — frame 61 the 'country could bear destrpyat4 iyK4 in beltalf of that poptgaiion which be ss.a s s ofliciaPyconuected, anti to whose inte'resTs - fieiitaS !mimic!, Oat he Yetis anxious-dad Bill-should trim! Ili its present Shape. It was said to be a- Bill of4rdetcion ; on the con trary. it was one of protection. It was coercive,. not aitainsi the people, but against the enemies of the people, - whose name was so often usurped by. revolutionary demagogues. lie must sayohat it th , s measote was made local, it would be ail encroachment on the high privileges and liberties of the undisturbed counties, as it would deprive them of that protection- to which they were en titled. T 0 use the words of Chief Justice Holt, it would be " an assault upon tile people of Eng land." It was not the Nobility, or the Commons, that Is ere to be protected by this measure ;it was the honest, the uncontaminated, and industrious peasantry of the count; y, whom they Were to