The Sun. — London, England, 1841-03-09 00:00:00

MagNING EDITION' it upon them, but he (Mr. O'Conf ancoaueltdonfoiteJfouratibeee present bring hieesell to believe su n would be committed: From Canada . he would take his flight to the East Inures. The soldiers of our army in India were one-half Catholics, and he had had meny letters addressed to lairn•from them complaining bitterly of the total want of religious comfort and instruction. Everybody knew the importance the Catholics attar hed to the offices of their Church—Protestants and Pres byterians were properly provided for ; but there was a total neglect of the Catholic soldiery in India. Almost every Commander bad promised them redress, but it had never arrived, and Sir H. Pane had even refused to forward a petition from the Mb.. Regiment to the Go vernraent. (The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then read some extracts from a Bengal paper on the suldect.) The Hon. Baronet was rather angry with him the other evening for suggesting to him the necessity of altering his policy towards Ireland. There was not a day pass ing that did not convince him that he was right—even the intelligence which had arrived that day would con vince him the more that the Gentleman opposite must see that they would be committing a fatal error in con tinuing an insulting policy towards Ireland. Was it a period like the present, when they might soon have occasion to call for an extreme augmentation of the army that they were to make an enemy of Ireland ? Ought they not rather endeavour to make her a firm ally and friend? The Right Hon. Baronet need not sup pose that he could ever have the cordial support of Ire land unless she was treated with the same fairness as England. Look at the Municipal all—in this coun try not one man who paid one shilling to the poor-rate but was a burgess, while in Ireland, a man before be obtained the same privilege must be rated at 101. It was his duty to .warn them that if another packet arrived front America with such menaces as that of that day it would be necessary for them to conciliate Ireland ; indeed be did not think that in such a case there was one gentleman, however reckless, who would persevere in the present insulting and degrading policy. Sir G. GREY did not mean to enter into the gene ral arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member, but from the position he held he felt bound to say that the courtrmartial upon Captain Reynolds had acted strictly according to their duty. He would go further and say that they had awarded strict justice. They were appointed for a special purpose, and they had no right to inquire into provocations which had been given months or years before. Sir De LACY EVANS had the pleasure of know ing many of the officers who sat on the court-martial, and knew them to be men of personal honour and much judgment, but as the Court was for the ti ial of a captain he thought there ought to have been more officers of his own rank.—(Hear, hear.) On the con trary more than one-half were commanding officers. lie (Sir De Lacy Evans) did not dispute the finding of the Court ; but he thought it was highly inconve nient for any court-martial to assert the abstract prin ciple which had been asserted in this case. The court-martial had said that no provocation whatever could excuse disobedience of orders or insubordination. Although he would be the last to countenance insub ordination, he thought it would have been better not to have laid down the principle, that provocation could in no instance form a padiation or defence. He was rather surprised the other evening to hear the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies say that the great clamour upon this subject was to be attributed to the fact that the Commander of the 11th Regiment was a nobleeaa,n. lie (Sir D .l Lacy Evans) had always cox,- sidered that rank was a great advantage to a commander. He believed it we e much easier for a nobleman to ren der himself agreeable to those who were under his orders, than for any persona of lower rank to do so. There were many instances in support of his view, amongst which were those of Lord Anglesey and the Duke of York. Tnat the Noble Lord should rest his argument on such a point only showed the meagreness of the grounds on which he stood. The Right Hon, Gen! !o men the Secretary - -at-War had stated that it would be unusual to place r officer on half-pay, because lie had Ulan under displeasure. He (Sir Da Lacy Evans) believed it would be found upon inquiry, that there were many instances in which such a course had been purested. There were officers in the army at that eery Ca l e w i l e, through having got into some little difficul ties, had bea7l placed upon halt'-pay. With respect to the propriety of a ffording religious assist ince t) sold:ers of the Catholic laersuas7en in the E sat Indies, which had been alluded to in the deba:.°. it , should be remembered that the principal disorders which. :Iceurred in the army arose from intoxication ; and if in those nottions of our possessions where there were no Catholic e. l ' r gY me i n ' some assistance eouli be given to the soldiery, he thought it might tend to check that evil. Mr. WARBURTON could not but think that there were facts enough before the House and the pub lic, to cll for an inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) In a letter sent by Lord Hill to the officers of the regiment, ad dressed to Lord Cardigan, the commanding officer, it stated that the regiment was in such a condition that it was neither useful for domestic purposes nor to be trusted in the fiald.—( Eh a:, hear.) Was a regiment to be in that state and no inquiry take place as to the cause which led to it ? In the debates the other night, the Gallant Officer, tha Master-General of the Ord nance had sta:ed that there was that, though not in the natter, yet in the mincer, of the commanding officer, which led to these resdte. On the other han +, it had been steted with respect to the officers, that there was a cabal amongst them. Was it not right, under these circumstances, that' an inquiry should take place?— (Hear, hear.) He considered these matters as a reflec tion, not upon Lord Cardigan, or upon the officers of the regiment, but upon the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, who had not instituted a full inquiry into the subject ; for nothing but a fair and candid inquiry could put an end to this state of things. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that with respect to what. had fallen from the Hon. Member for Westmin ster he quite agreed with him, that high rank was rather in favour of the commanding officer than against him ; but what he maintained was that complaints of this na ture were more likely to excite public attention, when the officer was of high rank than when he had been raised in the service, or did not occupy a commanding position. In his opinion, in consequence of the situation of Lord Cardigan, there had been a great deal more made of tile matter in debate than there otherwise would have been ; he did not want to enter into details, but if he were asked what those details were, he should say they were extteinely frivolous in thetnselves.—(Hear.) Tee Eon. Member for Bridport had said that there ought to have been a solemn Court of Inquiry. Now, the opinion of the Commander-in-Chief was the contrary of that ; he thought it much better to send down the Ad jutant-General to the regiment, for the purpose of de claring his opinion of the course that had been pur sued ; and he (Lord J. Russell) thought that the ad monition that was given by the Commander-in-Chief, was far more likely in future to induce the officers to rform their duties effectively, and t 3 live in harmony with each other, than if an inquiry had taken place, and the public mind had bean excited on the subject. With regard to wh a t h a d b ee n stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, he did not wish them to enter into the effeirs of Canada • that Honourable and Learned Member had truly stated that those affairs were matter of history, and to history he would leave them.—(Hear, hear.) n td / . . e s to Seminarythe ordinance . that had been passed valetivehetoe Sulpieeethat ordinance had approved d of by an eminent officer who had served in .1n , and ttte r e y f e. cessive Secretaries of State ; it was hut a a jus tice to an eminent body of men, and a a n m with it would be considered as an interferyenenewriethrentlo ce ordinance, not because it was just aed equitable, but because a benefit was derived from it by the Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) He should think such an interference, considering the state of Canada, most un wise and imprudent. He thought they ought to behave towards the Roman Catholics of that couptrywhi with the e that ch was greatest regard —they ought to hat their due as loyal subj ects of the Cro in Indiaivn.—(HLeeard,ildmaere.t) As to the Roman Cath olic soldiers c bow what would be done by the East India om evpaeny y or the Government of India , but he thought that o r l. facility should be given to ena ble Roman Catholic s diers to have the assistance of a minister of their own religion, and every means should be taken to git them that assistance. Sir GEORGE GREY said that the Hon. Member for Bridport had not put a rig's!. construction upon the proceedings of the court martial. Sir A. DALRYMPLE felt bound to bear testi mony to the excellent state of discipline in which the 11th regiment was, after what had been stated by the Hon. I Slernber for Bridport. A better behaved or dis ciplined regiment never existed. Sir H. HARDINGE said that the corps was in an admiratlo state of discipline. Mr. HUME wished to put a question to the Judge Advocate -General. He wished to know whether eri dence was not tendered a t t h e court-martial of a long series of insults that had bean received by the gallant officer, and whether it was not usualonsuc r h occasions in order to note down the e viden ce tendered,that, when it was brought before the higher tribunal, there might be questions raised as to whether that evidence did not give ground for further inquiry. That m a t e a strong impression on his mind, for they shut out all the pre cious acts of oppression and provocation. He was not disposed to deny the doctrine that no previous provoca tion could warrant an immediate breach of discipline , but he would put it to the Right Hon. G entleman how . far it was possible to suppose that officers were not men,and could bear insult without any means of redress being afforded them. On a former evening he had saidlthat belted blamed Lord Hill even more than Lord Cardi gan, and he had also blamed the Right Hon. Gentle man the Secretary at War ' whose duty it was not only to see justice done to Lord Cardigan , but to ever y officer in the one regiment. The whole affair had been a gross act of injustice towards the officers, and of fa vouritism towards Lor in d ov ? w r igs!). Lord Hill should bare army—(Hear, hear, and ala In his opinion, from the command of the w —and he thought he should never have been allo wed that command after Lord Grey had haveassu assumed t t i h nu e edi Go vernment. THE SUN 4 LONDON, TUERDA,Y, MARCH 9, 1811, .amoun te n c u l in t b o e 3 r 7 o 6 f , m an e d n c b olonial stations which e hadi establishmentabieet ofbeen : R 1,. ( i _ e ree v a e l . lastArtiylleearry n The d ' Led bly t t i o e k foreign s t a . wo A rd i s r. al‘ttirAibCatAedULtoAbYimdbeynietdbethHataah.e Member. He used the maintained where a clamour which he thought uai ti n m u e ra can us. He had, hogsve of l een obliged to leer • of the men on soai 'v e er, an additional reason why a man of spirit and conscience C and ill-tempered was raised against a man, it was.o:niclerste lions, and if it she 'old be deemed advisably e r w e nh d e u n e e t the h e up the should perform his duty freely and impartially. N thaninhane present number cif men on the foreign an . d, eel! respected the opinion of his countrymen more. li• should be obliged next sta kee always teens, •year to ask for an in (Mr. Macaulay) did ; believed they to all crease. On the fourth vote there was an increase ready to hear both sides, and to give fair pay the owing to the appointment of a barrack a of 96/ v parties, and he believed that the course taken on m worts ster andat Tor - the q uay. Oa the fifth vote, for Ordnance percent occasion by her Majesty's Government was to pairs in the United Kingdom andthe ' re one most consistent with justice, and best calculated the admoni- keepers, barracks, clerks of works, &c., a great increase promote the discipline of the army. Now f a had taken place, owine e to their being obliged tion to which the Hon. Member for Bridport re erre to crest new barracks and raise new e one, and merely stated that a tenden.ey first Waltham . Ordnance works. The was a general was at Abh•ty a corps in- _ ..„ , to afford an increased to disagreement and dissension must render d. tate pro- means for the making of gunpowder. An efficient ; and although it was not his i m mediate . b b been i r dof 1 0 v ieee to look after the discipline of the army, e ' l e ; h n I, i f i ) 1 0 1, for maellinery. At Birming lieved ,'list to whatever cl.arges Lord Cardiganr miggih '•-, muskets, nl they e w e e e re ob e lie e e r er t was h supplied with new be liable, he had brought his regiment to av . e y h *h A arms could h el o aye e l place in which - 'n a very short time after its return se e AO lepte , which has cost 5,0001. degree of efficieneY ' hear.) He could not sit down —(Hear, hear.) In consequence of a dreadful storm, from India.—(Hear, . referred point, to by the which had occasioned considerable damage to the sea without adverting to anotn. 7r regard for Dublin, with to line at Portsmouth, 6,900/. was required for its re- Hon. and Learned Member .Whatever they pair. At Halifax an additional expenditure of 4,800/. Catholic soldiers serving in India. ' hold with regard to their religious establishments had become necessary. On the Cape frontier an ex at home, he thought there could be no doubt that if penditure of 2,870/., and at Gibraltar the Large sum of they beat up for recruits in the Catholic counties of 22,000/. would be required. The works at Gibraltar on Ireland—if they took poor and ignorant men, and put the sea line had long been complained of as out of re them on ship board, and sent them 15,000 miles from pair. It had been frequently patched up, but the ap their homes, into the midst of Pagans and Mahoine- plieation of steam navigation had create Iso great an dans, where they were exposed to fever and wounds, alteration as to render it the duty of the Government and were called on to fight the bat Ces of their country, to provide especially for the safety of places situated they were bound to provide for them the comforts of like Gibraltar. It was necessary to have a g te o d od sea their religion.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He line. Sir John Jones. who had erece was quite satisfied that th e ha pp iness and morality of works in the Nctherlaals, at the close of the the men would be improved by such an arrangement. last war, had gone out to Gibraltar for thew pure He had not seen the statements referred to by the pose of making plans and estimates of th orks Hon. and Learned Member ; but he would make it his required. He had not yet returned any estimate, business to inquire into the matter. but he had sent home a rough draft, which he thought Sir ROBERT PEEL could not help remarking justified the Government in asking 20,0001. for carrying that the Hon Member for Kiikenny had a strong game preseat yea f r. The barrac nexst i ite m m prepossession against Lord Hill, because he had not f increase was o n the works during the prese:rt year. Tue next item prepossession against Lord Hill, because he had not of increase was an iof 8,857/ or kn t central districts. In the northern district , for 18 years resigned when Lord Grey en tered the Administration, and it appeared to him that the prejudice which he en- troops bad been lodged in temporary barracks. Two years tertained against Lord Hill had communicated itself to ago be thought it his duty to go down and examine the the case of Lord Cardigan, and swayed his mind to a barracks ; he found that the troops were very badly certain extent. Now, in the case of Lord Cardigan, accommodated. In the first instance the barracks had it would have been manifestly unjust to have dismissed been very comfortable, but at Bolton, Bury, and otter him without a court-martial ; it would have been un- places, they wero now far otherwise. He thought it wise to replace him on half-pay under the circumstan- was but justice to the troops to erect barracks in which ces, and it was admitted on all hands that there was they would be comfortable. Again, an increase of nct the remotest ground for justifying the appointment 10,0001. had become necessary for the erection of bar of a court-martial in his case—(Hear, hear)— racks at Brecon. They all knew the circumstances in short none of these grounds could have been taken. which had occurred in South Wales last year. The It was his opinion that the Commander-in Chief was a troops there had at first been stationed at public better authority on that point than the House of Corn- houses, which he considered highly objectionable. 'They mono. He could not believe that any Court of Inquiry, were afterwards placed in buildings, fitted up for thst extending as it probably would over many years, loves purpose ; and if it should be considered necessary to tigating offences that might be given by look or man- keep troops in South Wales, they should erect ner, would end in any satisfactory way. He thought a barracks for their accommodation at Brecon. There wise discretion was exercised in permitting that case to was an increase df 10,000/. for the erection of be decided by a man holding the high station which the fortified barracks at a station the name of which we Commander-in-Chief of the British Army did, whose could not catch, and where at present the troops were Public military services entitled him to the highest r e - residing in old hulks. On the 6th vote there was an spect, and whose private character was exempt from increase of 5,414/, On the 7th vote, items for military suspicion. There was nothing which be (Sir R. Peel) service, there was a great increase. This was a most would deprecate more than that the intentions of the important vote, and the increase arose in a great de. Commander-in-Chief should be influenced by any ex. gree from the giving percussion arms to the troops, It pression of opinion, on a matter of mere mgitary disci- was a subject which had engaged the attention of pline. He was also bound to say that he could not the Board of Ordnance for many years. I t was well conceive what motive the Secretary-at-War could have known that under the Old system of locks a great num in protecting Lord Cardigan. It WAS quite clear he ber of muskets miseed fire, It was well known that the was not actuated by any political partiality. It w a s British solder always did good work with his musket, evident also that some temporary popularity might have but he thought it was but due to him to put as good been acquired by that Right Hon. Gentleman's adopt- arms into his hand as could be procured. The increase in; a contrary course. Whilst he (Sir R. Peal) under this head was 130,000/, When he first became thought that the rank of Lord Cardigan ought Master-General of the Ordnance his attention had been not to be any source of protection to him ; yet he roust directed to the best means of effecting the change say that it was inconsistent with justice that a noblemen from the flint to the percussion. He had watched the being the commander of a regiment, and a man of high operation of the flint, and he had seen regularly that one rank, should be exposed to a punishment from which a third of the arms missed fire. He felt the necessity of re man of inferior rank would be exempt. He did trust sorting to some change, more especially when the other that the same motives which influenced her Majesty's European powers were doing the same. He had had pat- Government to act with a sense of justice in the first tern locks made, and submitted them to the inspection of instance would induce them steadily to adhere to the a Committee appointed by Lord Hill, of which the sa me course. Store-keeper of the Ordnance was a member. He had Cul mel SAL WEY thought th ere was g reat incon- had patterns of locks for muskets, carbine?, and rifle:, sistency in the statements ma de relative to the present and had had arms thus fitted up sent out to the regi condition of the regiment commanded by Lord Cardi. MentS in Canada, India, and Ireland, and he re nested q gan. The Right Hon. the Secretar y at War bad Lord Hill to direct the commanders of those regiments spoken of that corps as being in a high state of ineffi- to report thereon. Some sixty or seventy regiments ciency, whilst on the other side of the House an Hon. had been supplied, and he would read extracts from and Gallant General (Sir H. Hardinge) had stated some of the Reports. Colonel Cathcart, of the King's that a cabal existed among the officers of that regiment. Dragoons, said that they were better calculated for That was in his (Cul. Salwey's) opinion the most un- service titan any arms he had ever seen. The Right cestunate expression that could have fallen from any Gals Hon. and Gallant Officer then proceeded to read eer in that House. He never heard it stated several other returns, all of which highly approved of lint te,e. , -eland in that regiment. Though he th e ado p tion of the p ercussion arms. With these that any canal e. e h sting acquainted with Captain r eturn s before him he was sure the House would had not the honour or .. " black-bottle" Captain agree with him that the Government had Reynolds—better known as ge „i . ' s synan would be the nothing to do but to go on manufacturing these arms, Reynolds yet he believed that officer. .because, if anything should occur which would render last to form any cabal against his comman,4lng He (Colonel &Away) was sorry to hear such a:: ex- it necessary to send out an army to any part of the pression from the Hon. and Gallant General opposite. wo rld , the superiority of the percussion locks would become apparent. He recollected an instance of a re - Sir H. HARDINGE said that wha t he had dis tinctly stated was, that the differences in tha t regiment view at Dublin, where the men had the common locks to their guns, and in consequence of a shower of ra i n partook of the nature of a cabal among a few of its officers. He was justified in using t hat expression, coming on, not one of their guns would go o ff . Tnete because it had been used at the Horse Gua rds with re- was an addition of 15,000 /. for stores , and there was also an addition of 10,000/. for the purchase of military spect to the subject now before the House. He was far from attributing anything like a cabal to the whole stores. In the Commisseriat Department there was 36,000/. l e ss this year than last ; the reason of that of the regiment, for with the exception o f three or four a as, that the Ordnance Depart ment had been taken of its officers, none had any misunderstand in g with Lord Cardigaa. With respect to that nobleman , he (S ir H. H.) by the Treasury. Altogether there woul d be more ex did not mean to justify his every action, but he must ray pended this year than last, by 156,915/. He trusted that he (Lord Cardigan) had not merited the severe the statement he had made would he satisfactory to the censure which had been passed on him by the press. House, and he would now put it in the hands of the He was happy also to say that the officers of that regi- Chairman, for the adoption of the Committee. ment under Lord C ar digan's command conducted Upon the vote for 119,631/., for defraying the sala themselves in general with propriety, and with a due ries of the Civil Establishment for the office of Ordi regard to discipline. tranc e at Woolwich, and on foreign stations being put, An HoN. MEMBER said it was unwise of any mill- Mr. HUME observed that as the H ou se seemed tary man to say one word in that House as to th e mo- determined to keep up a large naval and militar y force, tives that actuated the Commander-in-Chief in his it was absolutely necessary to have it efficient, and if treatment o f L or d Cardigan. Lord Hill had sent anything was more important than another it was that down the inspector of cavalry to inquire into the merits the men forming that force should have the best pos of the case, and his Lordship acted on the report of the Bible arms. It was no economy to have bad ones. In inspector. t h e vete now before the House the re was no increase from the last year, and he therefore had no objection to it ; he objected, however, to the enormous amount of stores kept constantly on hand. The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 315,861/. for defraying the expenses of the Royal Artillery and Horse Artillery was agreed to. A vote of 37,810/. was also agreed to to defray the salaries of Barrack-Masters in the United Kingdom and on foreign station:. The next vote was 525,0211. for defraying the charge of Ordnance works and repairs. In answer to a question from Sir A. DALItYMPLE, Sir 11. VIVIAN said that the Government did not propose to erect any other barracks in South Wales unless it was found to he absolutely necessary. Mr. HODGES wished to ask the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer whether he considered the barracks at Hythe were necessary to be kept up ? Sir H. VIVIAN observed that he was prepared to go and throw away those- barracks, selling them for little or 'nothing, when, perhaps, 'in a short time, he should be forced to purchase them at a great expense. Mr. HUME considered this a very heavy vote, and he was sorry to see the Gallant Officer was adopting a course that had been adopted a few years ago, when a disturbance took place in Lancashire, namely, that of erecting barracks where mettles took place. He thought the Government would do well to consider whether, instead of studding the country over with barracks, they could not adopt some other means of putting an end to the discontents that existed in the country. If they would allow the people to manage their own affairs, they would not be called upon to lay out large sums in the erection of barracks. • Sr H. VIVIAN denied that the Government hal erected barracks wliel'e - tbe'emeures had taken /Am. Mr. HUME hoped that the sums received for show ing the different parts of the 'rower would be applied to adding to the collection there, and also to defray the expense of the new building. He also desired that these collections should be made admissible, partly at least, to those who could not pay. Sixpence was a small sum compared with the payments which were formerly taken, but there were numbers of persons who could not afford even sixpence, a-rd who were therefore entirely excluded from these collections. He thought that one day in the week might be set apart for the benefit of such persons. He mentioned the following to show the advent ige which even the revenue derived from the reducing of the rate of admission. During twelve a mo n th s , w h en t h e d em a n d was 2 5 ., 10,300 pen aas visited the armoury, produ • clog a revenue of 1,030/. When it was reduced to one shilling, there were 41,000, producing a revenue of 80,000 were 2,0401. WI en the fee was 6 d., admitted, producing a revenue of 2,0001. In the year ending F e b. 1, 1841, 91 , 897 were a dmitted on the same Aft terms, produ c i og a revenue of 2,297/. After a few words from Colonel Thomas, Mr. P. Howard, Sir Hussey Vivian, and Colonel Anson, with respect to the erection of barracks, the vote was agreed to. ARMY ESTIMATES. The House then went into Committee of Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the chair. Mr. MACAULAY, in proposing the vote for the yeomanry cavalry, said that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny had on the last evening requested him (Mr. Macaulay) to postpone the vote. The whole vote amounted to only 8:2 2661. for defraying the expenses of the yeomanry cavalry, and when the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) recollected that the conduct of the ca valry was perfectly irreproachable he (Mr. Macaulay) hoped he would not press his opposition. Mr. HUME had risen after twelve o'clock the other night to prevent the vote being put, which he consi dered the most objectionable one in the Estimates. He did not think such irregular corps ought to exist. They never came in contact with their fel!ow citizens without en gendering unpleasant feelings, which were not occasioned by the regular troops. He never recollected any com p' tints being made against the regulars, who always on such occasions performed their unpleasant clut'es with the utmost impartiality. There had been no instance of complaint in Ireland against the regular troops, whilst the employment of volunteer corps in that country had given rise to the most bitter feelings. Three regiments of regular troops could be maintained for the sum now proposed for these volunteer corps, and he was convinced that, with the present easy means of communication, three regular regiments would be found much more efficient than the whole of the yeo nialry corps. He should certainly divide against the grant. Mr. O'CONNELL, in reference to what had fallen from the Hon. Secretary at War, before going into Committee, in relation to Catholic soldiers in Indle, whised - to remind him that preeiiely the same promise had been made by his predecessor. He hoped he would press the matter at the India House. The information sought for could be easily acquired, and he would take care he should be furnished with it. Mr. P. HOWARD hoped the Right Hon. Gentle■ man would also direct his attention to the furnishing re- ligious instruction to the Catholic soldiers from Lan cashire and the Highlands who were serving in India. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the Coat. mittee divided, when there appeared-- Ayes Noes Majority in favour of the grant 34 ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN, who throughout was very indistinctly heard, and Ir.equently turned away fr the lOrdnance m '- gallery, then rose to brtrg forAa i rc . the Esti mates. It would have afforded the greatest had plan ea- sure if, like the Hon. Secretary. at War, o nou n ce d a decreasein prop osi ng the Army Estimates, he could have it in his power to hat e announceett d h a de cre Ise in the Ordnance Estimates. He regr,:d, ow ever, to say that he felt himself called on to propose a large increase—an increase to the amount 0f186,903/., and ha would endeavour as briefl y as possible t 3 ex plain under each vote the necessity that existed for the increase. The first vote was for the Ordnance civil establishments at the Tower, Woolwich, and the ern- . stations. Under this heal there was an increase .of 2,757/. ; this was owing in a great measure to the in creased salaries of their servants, who, a; they grew older, received an increase of salary, and also to the appoint ment of two additional storekeepers at Mo ntreal and Sierra Leone. On the second vote for the Royal ncers : Sappers, and M•ners, there was an increase of 2,688/. The Increase was ow:ng to an ap?lication from the Go vernor of Bermuda, for sappers and miners, to conduct the works on that station. He had found that those works could be carried on infinitely cheaper by the em ployment of sappers and miners, than by hiring labourers, and th ere f ore, at t h e suggestion of the Go vernment, he had applied for this assistance. On the third vote there was a decrease of 1,212/. ' arising from the fact that a large quantity o f c l o thi ng had heensup plied last year, and that therefore there was less re quired this year. No alteration bad taken place in the ORDNANCE SURVEY. On the motion th e t a L i s e u omt'tlalid ou that, e Ordn ance surve y, I not exceeding 156,2.59/., be applied for the expeos Sir A. DALRY M 1 II voting money for the proposed survelsl,: E the s object to be c arried out wap wi.se should s e e th a t th e : bin the officers who were to b e employel. powers of the should not be thrown entirely n u O He thou g ht th a t it ment. The Honourable endl:er cues M the mitt ar y depart to allude to the g reat expense whi ch would understood d attend this survey. Si r HUSSEY VIVIAN said h e thou 1t his H on . g I Friend was labouring under a mi , take on this subject. any The sum then pr o p osed was not larger than that of P revious year ; a nd the proposed survey on the seal six inches to the mile would be carried on in the sameeof mann er as the old sur ve y of one inch. He could assure the Gallant Gentleman that the geological survey wa s not carried on by the Ordnance officers—it was entirely under the management of M. Delabeche—though he was sometimes assisted by the Ordnance engineers. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was the sum of 328,0001. for„defraying the expense of Ordnance stores. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Gallant General if he could tell him what amount of stores bad been scat out to Syria. Sir H. VIVIAN could not say off hand what the amount was ; he could tell his Hon. Friend, howeve-, that there were 15,000 inuskets sent. The vote was agreed to, a 3 were 5,5791. for the purchasing of land at Kingston, Canada. 116,529/. for defraying the expense of superaoua tions, half-pay, arid pensions of the Ordnance depart ment. And 248,5951. for the Commissariat supplies to the same department. The House then resumed—the Report to be received n Wednesday. Tne Report of the Turnpike Act Cont;nunnee Bill was brougbt up, and the Bill ordeterl to be en grossed. Ti , e 'Turnpike Act Continuance (Ireland) Bill went through Committee.p 00 It.LAWS. Mr. P. MAULE moved that the House resolve itself kto Committee on the Poor-law Amendment all. Mr. 'l'. PARKER did not know what sympathy for the poor would be shown in that House, but he would certainly continue his opposition to it when it was pro posed to proceml with it. As the present was merely a pro forma proceeding, he would not then detain the House. Mr. F. MAULE would only assure the Hon. Gen tleman that her Majesty's Ministers felt quite as much, and probably more, sympathy for the poor than many who made much noise upon the subject. Captain PEC HELL wished to know whether he had correctly understood the Noble Lord—were all local acts to be left untouched, and were Gilbert Cor porations to be exempted from the operation of the Bill ? Mr. F. MAULE said his motion was merely a pro forma one. When the Bill was printed with the amendments, Hon. Gentlemen would see them. Colonel SIBTHORP said he did not think his Hon. Friend (Mr. T. Parker) had been answered in the most courteous manner by the Han. Under-Secre tary ; and, as for his boast, there was a very true, al though a very trite saying—it was, " The proof of the pudding is in the eating of it."—(A laugh.) Now, he thought the acts of the Ministry had never given any proof of sympathy for the poor. They had shown an ardelt love for their places, and, although they had only come down to five years' continuance now, rati er than give up their dearly-loved places, they would come to two, or even one•—they would descend to any trick in order to insare them. If no other Member took the sense of the House upon the Bill on a future occasion, he would do so himself. Mr. HINDLEY earnestly prestel uron the Go vernment to adopt the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, and divide the Bill into two. The House then went into Committee—Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. Caphin PEC HELL again inquired whether de Gilbert Incorporations were exempted from the opera tion of the Bill. Mr, F. MAULE—No. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE would warn the House against the insidious provisions of the Bill. Local Acta were net to he touched, but the Commissioners had uc thing to do but join a parish having a local Act to another which had not one, and then their board of guardians immediately ruled the union. In that way they had joined Kensington and Chelsea—the utmost confusion had been the result, and they had been compelled, i❑ order to remedy the evil, to bring in a bill of divorce be tween the parishes—(A laugh)—for no other power than Parliament could effect a separation, a union hav ing once been formed by the Poor-law Commissioners. He did not see the Noble Lord the Secretary of State in his pl tee who could give the required explanation, and ther, fora he moved that the Chairman report pro• gress arid ask leave to sit again. Mr. FOX MAULE said the Han. .Gentleman bail refused to concede what he had never known to he re- fusel in that House, namely, tn go into Cummittee pro forma, for the purpose of amending the all. He had never heard such a step refused to any Hon. Member much less to the Let(ler of the House. His Nabk Friend had in the early part of the evening detailed tl.e amendments he proposed to make, but whether the Honourable Member heard him or not be realy (lid not know—he was taking no step in the Bill, But was merely asking to place before the House in more el ,ar and intelligible terms the alterations he proposed to make. _ _ . M-. DUNCONIBE sa:d he bad been charged with ,aping an unusua! and uncourteous step in objecting to the aTOratiotis about to be made, but he must say it was much more , unusual and uncourteous, when he asked the Hon. Gentleman with reference to certain amend ments which it was proposed to make, to be tAi " you will see that when the 8.11 is printed."—(Tory cheers.) If Le had been treated in that manner.bi any Secretary of State even of the high departments, much less of the lower—(A laugh),—he would any that in any other place it was a somewhat impertinent answer.-4 Hear, hear, and cries of " Order.") Tile Noble Lord had been much more courteous ti the House than his sub altern, because he had condescended to explain when asked ; but he considered the answer he had received from the Hon. Under-Secretary both uncourtcous and unusual. Mr. FOX MAULE said his answer had certainly bons given in an unusual and irregular manner from his seat, as one friend would give to another on the same side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted, how ever, the House would not consent to the unprecedented motion of the Hon. Gentleman. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was a very frequent course to propose amendment, in order that the Bill might go into Committee in the state in whiles the Go vernment wished it to appear. That proposition had been generally agreed to. Now, because he (Lord John Russell) had done more than was usual—because he had stated the nature of the amendments he intended to propose, the Hon. Member asked for more, and wished to have every item and iota stated. Mr. D UNCO MBE hoped the Noble Lord would excessive— although it might be said that there was nothing in the offence itself which required that extreme and irrevocable punishment, yet so far us the prevention of crime, the grease object of the criminal law, was con cerned, if the opinion of the country was in favour of the inflation of that punishment,it would tend to prevent t hat crime ; for instance, not a great many years ago, on a certain c'rcuit, a Judge of this country, after the ver dict of the; Jury, condemned fourteen persons to death for the crime of sheep-stealing, and all those fourteen persons were banged. The punishment at the time was thought an extreme one, but the Judge thought it his duty to inflict it, and the Jury thought it their duty to find the persons guilty ; and with regard to the crime of sheep stealing, it was effective for a certain time in the prevention of that crime. But if the opinion in that respect was changed, though the law declared that certain crimes should be visited with death, yet if there was such a repugnance on the part of jurors, that although the indictments might be found by the Grand Jury, although the evidence be fore the Petty Jury might be convincing to the mind of any reasonable man, still, if the repug nance to inflict capital punishment might be so great in the minds of the Jury that they would find a verdict of not guilty, in spite of the evidence before both the Grand Jury and the Petty Jury, then the Legislature would, in that respect, not attain their object. Crime would not be prevented, because a person who would be likely to commit a crime would have a temptation to commit it. He would not have the punishment of death before his eyes ; because, whatever the declara tions of the statute law might be, those persons would look to what the law was in operation—what it was by the verdict of a Jury and the sentence of the Judge, and likewise by the recommendation of the Judge to tire Crown reseecting the sentence—those persons, see ing that one was se's:loco executed for such offences, would not be deterred from the commission of them by chat law. Omitting all the questions which were raised by many persons in this country, and the opinions which probably the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself entertained as to the lawfulness of executing the pu nishment of death in any case—looking to that which he (Lord J. Russell) said was the object of society —to prevent crime—it was a question to consider how far the criminal law as at present constituted effected that ob j 'et. They hal made very great alterations in the criminal law—they had very much reduced the num. ber of offences for which persons were by law punishable with death, and with respect to certain offences there was on the statute book the infliction of that penalty commanded, but which was not in practice. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite had taken all these ques tions together, and had proposed them in one Bill. He (Lord J. Russell) did not feel that they ought to look to the abolition of the punishment of death altogether. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite ought to have proposed a different course to the House. He (Lord J. Ressell) would propose a course considering offences separately, with the exception of a certain number ; in regard of which no doubt existed in the mind of any person. The Legislature had abolished the punish- msnt of death with regard to some verygreat offences-- with respect to forgery, &e. The Bill of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in the first place, took cognizance of crimes of that sort. With respect to embezzlement by the servants of the B ink of England, and bills of the South Sea Company, stamped duties, &c., there was no doubt whatever that in such cases they ought not to leave on the statute-book the announcement of the pu nishment of death. That announcement also ought, he thought, to be removed in the case of persons return ing from transportation to St. Helena. He therefore brought in his preseat Bill, which he conceived the Le gislature could have no hesitation in passing into a law. There was another subject on which he (Lord John Russell) had stated a difference of opinion list year, and respecting which he went to the extent of saying, that they ought not to grant the total abolition which the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Kelly) desired. It was with respect to the offence of destroying or burning ships in tire Queen's dock-yards. He (Lord John Russell) conceived, with respect to that offence, that if it was committed with a view of destroy iag ships of the navy, or of destroying the whole naval stores of the country in the dock-yards 1: elonging to the Crown, it was an offence of a treasonable nature—that it was an offence which, although it might not be really committed, yet yet when it was attempted with such intent to cripple and destroy the naval forces of this cowry, and prevent her Majesty from using the forces of the Crown against aggressions made by foreign enemies, was of so serious a nature, partaking so much of the character of treason, that they ought not to take away from it the severest punishment. At the same time, it appeared to him that the Act was drawn up in such a manner as to involve malicious—and, it might be, and wilful intentions, but yet without destroying of naval stores, with others which were not undertaken wilt a treasonable purpose, or with a view to cripple the naval resources of the ceuntry. He proposed, therefore, an amendment of the Act in this respect, and to endeavour to confine the punishment as much as possible to the greater offence.--(Hear, hear.) There was next an offence which cer tainly was one on which the greatest doubt and cliff cultybad been entertained, and on which the Govern ment had come to a decision with very considerable difficulty. He alluded to the offence of rape. With regerd to that offence, he (Lard John Russell) felt no doubt in saying, that when that offence was an aggra vated offence, that when it was accompanied by cireuin• stances which showed it to be an offence of violence with aggravation, it was an offence which ought to be punished with the most extreme punishment which coel I be inflicted. But when they considered this offence as it was brought before the Courts of justice in this country, where great doubts and diffi culties arose, when they considered that those charged with this offence were generally charged upon the evi dence of one person, and, that not a person against whose evidence, as in the case of robbery or attempt to murder, no suspicion could r.rise ; but that they were persons who were, to a certain degree, subject to the doubt and suspicion that they were endeavouring to clear their own character by bringing a serious charge against another person—when they considered that these doubts much affected the minds of Juries—that questions of that sort that were brought before Juries were sifted, of course, and that very often different statements were made of circumstances stated in evi dence, and with regard to proofs of the life of both parties, and of circumstances that had happened imme diately before—when all these circumstances were weighted together, if they considered the repugnance there was to give a verdict, which might end in taking away the life ; and the general impression there was that nothing but the most certain evidence ought to induce Juries to bring in a verdict of guilty on a capital charge—they might. well conceive that verdicts of acquittal were often pronounced upon persons who had committed the offence, but still against whom there was not the certain evidence which would induce Juries to bring in a verdict that might end in the termination of the life of the prisoner. These considerations had no doubt very much affected the minds of Juries, and he (Lord J. Rus sell) could show by returns that they had been very powerful in producing verdicts of acquittal. Now, in the administration of our criminal laws, they must con sider that the Judges had the opportunity of observing in th it circuits the impression they produced, first upon the gentl men who formed the Grand Juries, next upon the chess of persons who formed the petty Juries, next upon the various classes of barristers, officers of the Courts of Justice, and indifferent persons with whom they caine in contact. Therefore the opinion of the Judges in any case, not in one case only, but generally in cases regarding the infliction of any punishment, was entitled to the greatest weight. He (Lord J. Russell) had been unwilling to state any decision of the Go vernment on this subject, because he had been anxious to see if the views, first, of individual judges, and after ea ee or my..., .1...44 is. La it perienee. He would state what the result of that fur ther experiment was. When he had the honour of being Secretary of State for the Home Department, a case of rape occurred, in which three persons had been concerned, and therefore one which was generally considered as an aggravating case, and one in which the punishment of death might have been inflicted. The Judge before whom that case was brought, informed him (Lord John Russell) that if he could not make any objection as Secretary of State, he should be prepared as the Judge to recommend that life should be spared. Struck by that opi nion, and knowing the intelligence, ability, and learning of the Judge, and not being averse himself, whenever he possessed the ability, and thought it safe, for the administration of the law, to spare life—(Hear, hear)—he (Lord John Russell) stated, that if such a recommendation came, he should at once recommend the Crown to adopt it. The recom mendation was made and life was spared. Other cases had since occurred, and it bad been found that the Judges generally agreed in the opinion he had just men tioned, and that they thought, with regard to cases in which conviction was obtained for rape, that the capital sentence ought not to be executed. In stating what had been the result, he stated that what, with out saying that they could deduce inferences from it, they could entirely defend, was still of considerable weight. The general result had been that when there had been executions one year the proportion of convic tions was less the next year. There was certainly a feel. ing against the execution of capital sentences, and if these returns were to be relied on, which he would not say, and they were to be taken altogether, it would be found they entirely concurred, In the year 1834 there were fifty-five persons acquitted, and eight convicted of capital crimes. Four of the eight were executed, and four transpbrted for life, the pro portion convicted being one in eight. In the next year, 1835, fifty-two were acquitted and only four convicted, and in all these cases the sentence was commuted. The neat year, Tan forty-si* wore acquitted and nine convicted, that was to say one in six ; but in that year one person was executed. In the . next year, 1837, sixty-seven were acquitted and six conyjct e o;, the proportion of those convicted I?cipg, one A , in twelve ; but all those convicted were tract not misrepresent him, he had merely asked one question. Mr. BERNAL said an observation had escaped the lion. Member, which he was sure was not meant in ,the sense in which it was taken, and which he thought the Hon. Member ought to expla'n. Mr. DUNCOM BE said that he had qualified his observation, by adding if it had been made in another place. Colonel WOOD thought there had bean a good deal of warmth about nothing at all. H e un d e rstood the word" impe:tincnt" had escaped the Hon. Member, and Vint required some explanation. Mr. DUNCO MBE said after the explanation of the Hon. Secretiry he, of course, withdrew the obser vaGin. After a few words from Mr. JOHN JONES, the Bid went through a Committee pro form, and wes or dered to be printed with the amendments. COPYRIGHT OF DESIGNS. Mr. ENIMERSON TENNENT, in moving the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Copyright of Designs all, proposed that it be an in struction to the Committee to consider all the Acts connected with the copyright of articles of manufac ture, for the purpose of combining them in one Bill. Mr. SHIEL said be had suggested that when an Act of Parliament was about to be brought in effecting alterations in one branch of copyright, that it would be much wiser, there being no less than five Acts on that subject, to include them all in one general Act. There were copyrights upon designs on metal, on glass, and other articles, and he thought it would be much more judicious to have the whole subject considered by the Committee. The House then went into Committee, proforma. -M t . -- 114.57ted u tbk, 1314 i would come into operation after the data of registration or that of publication. Mr. E.TENNENT—After the date of registration. After a short conversation between Mr. Hindley, Mr. I - lume, and Mr. Shell, the Bill was ordered to be committed on Wednesday, the 17th instant, and the House resumed. LEASE AND RELEASE BILL. Mr. EWA Rr brought up the Report on the Lease and Release Bill, which was ordered to be read a third time. CRIMINAL LAW- Lord J. RUSSELL said that he rose to bring in a Bill for the Amendment of the Criminal Law. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman whom he saw opposite (Mr. F. Kelly) had introduced a Bill in the la,t Ses. sion of Parliament en that important subject. It was for the House to consider whether they could now go further than the extent they bad hitherto gone in the mitigation of capital punishment, a nd, if so, t 3 what ex tent. The Hon. and Learned Gent leman stated last year that it was his opinion the capital p unishment might be abolished altogether, but that was not the measure which he (Mr. F. Kelly) now proposed to the House, dis tinctly. Heea but one which would abolish capi tal p unishment for all offences, with the exception of treason and murder. T uese were the principles o n which the Hon. and Learned G t ( l L em erd an veryjperhoeceitedeeedgeu)was not persuaded clearly and that it was expedient to abolish capital punishment altogether, because he though t it was at times neces sary. But, at the same time, Public o p inion with re spect to this subject must be looked to, and they must see whether the changes already made in the criminal law operated well, and whether public o pinion would go along with them in maintaining the proposed changes in the law ; because, in a country where the decision on that question was by trial by Jury—where the persons who should ultimately decide whether the life of a human being should be taken away or na— me persons selected fr om thp general body of the country—it must depend very much on the country whether or not capital punish ment should be abolished.—(Hear, hear.) Because if it was the general opinion, however erroneous, that capital punishment should be inflicted for cer t a i n of fences, although it might be said that punishment iy" ported for life, aid there was no execution. In the next year, 1838, thirty-two were acquitted, and seven convicted, being a proportion of th3sc convicted of 1 in d for the ye,.r immediate ly folio vine that ie which all we.e transported for life. In 183 d, sixty acre acquitted, and seventeen convicfci, the propor tion convicted being lin CI. In 1840, there were thirty-eight acquitted, and eighteen convicted, tl.e pro portion convicted being nearly lin 3. Tne resul.s. therefore, of these returns were (at least it would seem so), that when executions were carried into effect, ii, the next year a less proportion were convicted, and that since custom and justice had been that such sentences should in all cases be commuted, the proportion of convictions had been greater. Now, he thought if such was the general re sult, and, without too much relying upon the re turns, if they saw that such was the general tendency of these trials, he thought he might say it was more important for the prevention of crime, that they should have a law by which a great proportion were convicted, than a law by which a small proportion were convicted. —(Hear, hear.) The great object was, that a person convicted of crime should be punished ; and whether by the punishment of death, or by transportation for life, if there were a certainty, or nearly a certainty, of punishment, they were likely to prevent more crime than if they made it a lottery, and said that one, or a number, ten, twenty, or thirty should be executed, and the re:t should go scot-free.—(Hear, hear.) The disposition of the human mind and character was to take the chance of acquittal, which was a considerable chance, and run the risk of execution, rather than incur the probability, the very strong probability, of banish ment or severe imprisonment as the result of the crime. It seemed to him, therefore, with respect to the crime of rape, that they ought now to take away the punish went of death.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time it was one of those crimes respecting which, if they re carded particular instances of it, if they regarded the atrocity and violence with which it was committed— looking at it as a conviction for a moral offence, there was no offence for which he thought the House, or the country generally, would be more ready to say ex treme punishment ought to be inflicted. But, looking at a question of this kind, with re spect to the effect of the criminal law, they must consider what the criminal law was be 'and what it could be. They could not make the criminal law—they did not pretend to make it reach moral offences, according to the degree of moral guilt, as a divine power affixed t) any moral crime the moral penalty which ought to attach to it. That was beyond their power, and if it were in their power, there was not only this offence but others to which they could not affix such penaltie,.. They could not affix such penalties to many offences to which the indignation of our moral feelings would say that they ought to 133 affixed. They could not, for instance, affix it in the case of slander. In the case of slander, for instance, a young and inno ceat woman might have her whole reputation de stroyed, even her ire endangered—the peace of her family destroyed—her innocence unjustly tainted—the greatest possible injury, and from the most malicious motives, might have been inflicted on her ; and yet when they appe Jed to the law, it was merely a case of slander, to which pecuniary damages only were affixed. Were their moral feelings satisfied by such a verdict? No. Was the law wrong ? No. But it was one of those cases which was beyond the law and above the law, the punishment of which must be left to the feelings of mankind, to the conscience of the offender, and to the retribution of et , maul life. Still he doubted whether there we. e not certila cases of the offence of rape, which were deserving of the punishment of death. On that question he consulted Commissioners of the Criminal Law, and persons engaged in the administration of the law, how they would mark the distinction, when they would draw a line between offences of rape to be punished with death, and those not to be so punished, and he had never been able to obtain a clear definition. It had been supposed that in offences perpetrated by more thin one parson, when no consent could be supposed, the punishment of death ought to be inflicted. At the same time, when he considered the wide chasm which separated the punish meet of transportation from the punishment of death, the wide gulf there was between the two, he must own that he was not satisfied with the distinction that had been made. He had stated the case as it appeared to him, be cause there was no subject on which he had had so much doubt, and it was not until he had obtair.el the opinions of the Judges, and seen the results of the convictions of the juries, and he considered well all the circumstances which he had stated, that he had conic to the decision teat the prevention of the crime was more likely to be accox plishel by the infliction of the punishment next to death, than by continuing the punishment cf death itself. At the same time, he thought it was an offence that should be visited with no light punishment, end he would propose, as a substitute for the punishment cf death, the punishment of transportation for life, or for not a less period than 16 years. He also proposed, instead of the punishment of death, to inflict the same punishment on persons guilty of the other offences mentioned in the same clime of the Act. He believed he had stated the nature of the three Bills which he proposed t ) bring in. He was not prepared to make any altera ins rest ecting the Act of 1837, the first of Victoria, with regard to attempts at mutter or burglary attended with violence. Ile did not mean t s.ty that there w e:e not several offences from which it ni . g t not be right to take away the punish. meat of death, but he did not intend to do so by the Bill which he proposed bringing in, and ho would rather ergue thce e questions on. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's Bill than now. He had stated to the House, when fn merly speaking on the Hon. and Learned Gent' emotes 13.11,t.h . at it would be expedient th it some general view should be taken of the whole subject of our criminal law, more especially of that °art of it relating to the punishment of transportation and imprisonment, in the infliction of which there was no method or uniformity ; but he had found, on looking over the Acts, that they were so compli cated' and confused, that it would be imprudent in the Government, without further information, to bring in B on the subject. He proposed at sonic future period of the Session to bring in Bills for that purpose, not, however, with any intention of passing them dining the present Ses sion, because he thought it better that subjects Gf that kind should be fully canvassed throughout the country irr order to afford those capable of forming an opinion, an opportunity of communicating witn the Govern ment or Members of Parliament on the subject--( Hear)__. as the utmost deliberation ought to be used in efleeting al terations in the laws upon such a subject. Great progress bad been made of late years in ameliorating the extreme severity of our laws, and the great evil at present existing was the uncertainty respecting the punishment to be in flicted. Ile was of opinion that they ought not to relin quish any one of their chief punishments. He thought they ought to retain the punishment of death for certain and gross offenc2c, and those only when there were no mitigating eircumstanc.w. The next great class of pun ishment, transportation, he thought, ought also to be retained. He had heard of nothing to COO , ince him why, as fir as regarded England and Ireland, that punishment ought not to be kept up. With regard to the last class of punishments, imprisonment, an expel iment on the subject A as in the course of operation, and they had before then the re- suit of the experiment from several places. ird ought tt, be had to another punishment which was not now junta .d in common Courts of Law, a'though the punishment it. self was actually constantly suff:Ted by criminals ; he meant the punishment of hard labour its the dock yards of the country, but to which the punishment of transportation was frequently commuted by the Secretary of St ate. He thought they ought to maintain that punishment, but they ought not to lease it entirely to the Secretary of State to say what criminals should be transpertel, and what crimi nals sent to.hard labour in the dock-yards.—( Hear.) He thought the punishment ought to remain, but it should be a punishment by Act of Parliament, and not a punishment inflicted by the person holding the office of Secretary of State, sometimes on the recommendation of the Judge•, but often by the adv'ce of the Super intendent of the dock-yard. He would not enter into further argument on the subject, as the ques tion was not touched by the Bill which he now pro posed to introduce. He should, therefore, move for leave to bring in a Bill to do away with the punishment of death in ce►tain cases.—(Cheers. ) Mr. KELLY would be doing_ great injustice to the Nhast.:. Lord. and acting in a manner little coeseetost to his own feelings and opinions, if he hesit tted to express the great gratification which he felt at the statement of the Noble Lord, and if he was compelled to admit that that gratification was not altogether unmingled with dis appointment, he need scarcely say how much he re. gretted being compelled to make that admission. Sill those who thought as be did could not but entertain great satisfaction at the views which had been taken by the Government on that question. The Noble Lord in ad. vetting to the Bill he had the honour of introducing into that House suggested matter which he had listened to with surprise. The Noble Lord had stated that by the Bi'l he had introduced he went too far; that he had called upon the Legislature to do more than could he safely attempted ; but when the Noble Lord suggested to the House that he disapproved of the Bill, and called on the House to enter tain doubts upon its propriety, because its author looked to the entire abolition of the punishment of death, that ap peared to him to be an argument altogether unworthy of the Noble Lord in aquestion of such importance. It was true that he, in common with many others, did look forward to the entire abolition of the punishment of death, as one of the greatest benefits that could be conferred by the Le gislature on the community, and he had no doubt the time would come when the punishment of death would he looked forward to with a: great horror rs torture was at the present moment; but while he thus admitted that he looked forward to the abolition of the punishment of death, he felt bound to say than any measure for its par tial abolition ought not to be looked upon with di;- approbation. In introducing the Bill to that House, which had been read a second time, he c illed upon the House to consider it on its Iner'ts ; if the measure was good, he trusted it would be passed, but if the provisions of that Bill were bad, then he was content that it should be condemned. Bat he felt be might with confidence appeal to the Noble Lord himself whether in any other department of legislation a measure bad been discountenanced because those who supine -Led it west further than the party who had brought in the mea. sure; if such was to be the case, what, he would ask, would have become of that great measure of legislation in which the Noble Lord took so prominent a part ? In some of the remarks of the Noble Lord he begged entirely to concur; he agreed with hill when he said that no Act of Parliament, no course of Legislation, no operation cf the law could be of any effect unless the public voice went Wong with and that observation applied parigularly to the Criminal Law ; not only would it be imprudent but mischievous, unless the Juries by whom the law was administered con curred in the expediency and wisdom of tile law. Those Rhv wore iikeetiSto4lo.4 to the Cowls of Justice felt the MORNING EDITtn. effect of that even in civil cases, and it was upon those v'-'y principl e s, seer ifi c i ng hi s own , t h a t he had limi ted the Brll to those offences on which he was sure a grea i t majority of the people, es p ec i a lly th a t c lass out of % hie Juries were selected, wou ld go a l ong with ben to" the full extent. It gave him great satisfactioa to find that the Noble Lord in advancing that reform which he had so ably introduced in 1837, w as now willing to concur in the abolition of capital puuisi.lii ment with respect to several offences to which his f i adverted; but he must express his disappointment that the Noble Lord bad stopped short, and bad expressed lit: unwillingness to concur in the abolition of the punish nl ,g o of death for setting fire to ships in the dockyards. rd .11 principle of the Bill introduced by the Noble Lo 1837 was the abolition of the punishment of death in all cases affecting property, and he, therefore, could not why that offence should still be visited with deed,. 'l, it was said it ; was tr eas on a bl e to d e stroy the property eci the Queen, why was not the same system to be adopte r with respect to the Queen's palace, or the Crovvnjewe lS : The parties, who steno would be tempted to destroy her Majesty'e dockyards, were re t likely to he deterred trout the crime by an apprehension of punishment. No Eng lish subject, no one but an emissary from a foreign encm" could have the smallest temptation ; and he who woo,. come to this country well tie intent to set fi re • t e ships, or in any other nay to damrge the reso urces of this country, must have such an inducement or such a feariessness of character, as that to bim the punishment of death would hold out no terrorist whatever. The offence, then, was one, which, though partook of the character of hi g h t reason, was necessarily of such rare occurrence that he trusted the Noble Ler" would be induced to exempt it from capital punishment' With respect to perjury in relation to stamp! and punishment' - and certain matters connected with the Bank of EDO% in those cases, no objection was cr.tertained to the shea f tioa of capital punishments; and there were two oaf cases to which the Noble Lord had extended the exemf; tion. But the Noble Lord had not adverted to the °gen e of attempting to commit murder, or the offences of bur glary end robb er y a tt en d e d w ith a d egree o f violence w hi e e endangered life. He could only understand from the silence of the Noble Lord that he was &sposed to • tain the system of capital punishments in reference to t. • class of offences. It was with unfeigned regret that h i (Mr. F. Kelly) came to that conclusion, If the Neh Lord would bear in mind the test which he had bimetal( 0 1 )- • plied to try the expediescy of capital punishments; - he would find that there were clearer grounds. WI convincing arguments for the abolition in those cases,)l those offences in which he consented to the abolition. ,s 2 l one of the Acts of th e N o bl e L or d, a modification 0% been introduced with respect to violence, and with W ell to commit grievous bodily h arm . A s soo n as the . 11 came into general practice, counts we-e brought chargi tae offence in both ways, capital and not capital; " d e l a no case where both counts were charged, as far as b e heard from perscns in the pr o f ess i on , had the Jury c°s - of the capital offence. In e very case the Jury eelloi victed the party of the minor offence. The best Tata . convictionsecuring the and preventing the sap-lilt e t the guilty, was t> abolish caeital punishment• continuing these punishments, they did, in .. f t e , hold out a tempt ation to the commision of ,7 - 0 , der, they induced ,the party to destroy a ""°,- whom he otherwise would not have destroyet. He trusif ie that upon consideration of all the circumstances the No e u e , Lord would be induce to procerd still further in 15 / coarse cf legislation which had already been so bench ci t to the country. He trusted that be would soon see cap s tal punishments altogether abolished, and a satisfactory and effectual system of secondary punishments introdut • , in their stead ; and this he believed would be far In nf aire • eff.eatual for the prevention of crime, than that soing ein- e. system it had so long, and, for the interests of the con try, so injuriously maintained. fat Mr. SHAW c mid not coincide in the propositio n the Noble Lord t abolish the capital punishment for tb: crime of rape. Wh en t h ere was a c l a a ly proved t e at l li there ought to lee no doubt as t p the punishmenteeeedie such cases it ought to he de a th. H e ent i r ely agree b e t the general principl-s laid down by the Noble Lord , r , with respect to this crim e he c m id no t co i nc ide in the s guments used by him. Sir C. DOUGLAS would have much pleasure in su r e , porting the Bill of his Hon. and Learned Friend, 31- ' his opinion, the Noble L or d h a d f a il e d i n m aking I to case for opposing it. The c o unt r y w a s muc h iadebthei et. him for his strenuous exerti o n s u p on so i mport ant a s n '' ' n ee Mr. E WART begged to co n g ra t u l ate th e House n e.4 the fact of the Government coming forward and ensP s e so the abolition of the punishm en t o f d eat h w i t h respeet ee " - e le many crimes, and he tru s t e d th at b ut f ew y ears would be e , lowed to pass b e f ore ca pi ta l pun i s h ment would be %toil et :o. , The Noble Lord, he regretted to find, had not Yet : be e stituted any punishment for t r a ns p or t at i on , a l t hough , e ,` t it hart provided secondary pu n i s h men t s i n man y cases 100 apps aged to him that it was extr eme ly i n j u dicious to P so large a discretionary power of commuting punishni!oe the hands of the Secr e ta r y o f St ate . H e was casi n o, that ere long the people would insist upon ascertainingser, grounds upon which that discretionary power wa s e e e test ciscd. The Noble Lend had shown with the g r ,, - st# clearness that where the punishment of an offen ce of commuted is something less than death, the n ie el li "f e eorl coray.ctions was increased in a very large ratio. " e r e t hat from the returns which had been laid upon the WT O O since tee reduction of capital punishment from 1, 24 14 0 0 to somewhere about 10 offences, the number of con H e had increased in the proportion of three to one. I' bad juiced in the enlightened views which the Noble Lord oti propeueeed in the course of his address to the House, saj he trusted th a t h e wou ld persevere i n hi s pra iseworth i c humane efforts for the mitigation of the criminal ti:e country. . Mr. P. HOWARD th oug h t t h e N o ble o pt carried his principle of th e a b o li t i on o f ca pe] punt ba re too far. It appeared to him that rape should ne t id ses been excepted, bec ause , if t h at was d one , it Iro n t on ' move one of the greatest safeguards of wornae 13 °4 tbe He cat red his solemn p ro t es t aga i ns t that part - Nob Lord's plan. Worl Lev was then given to bring in the Bills, whl e- a eor sever ally read a first time, and ordered to be read a time on Friday next. a The other Orders of the Day were then disposedand the House adjourned at Twelve o'Clock. CH I AN ARTFUL AND PRECOCIOUS 0 11 A l y Ott Wednesday, in Paris, a pretty little child, hil rw l e nte years of age, possessing an o p en a nd intelligent s ad Lance, comfortably clad with a gros de Naples cie s een wearing a blue velvet bonnet, under which wet % sla t some I rvely ringlets of light h a i r i n c l u sters on ell- eba ll of her face, was going down the R ue de l'Odeon, etol• tenches' the carrefour near the Rue de Conde, ~1111 denly stopped, and, looking around her, euclaimerLso Dot nurse !my nurse I where is my nurse ?" The n e n e r e son' S making her appearance, th e c hild b egan c rying, " - a bet of the passers-by stopped, and, having questiondoler enCeavoured to console her ; a t l as t, a turniture:e took her into his shop. " Where do you i child ?"—" In the Rue Saint Louis au Mar a ": pew ° " You are a great nay from home." Sir, my nurse had beer, sent to execute a cola°. e job and she took me with her. We have been Waillgrbe ll large garden, which is called the Luxembourg, an d Wl we left to return home. I walked on in front a d roof., nurse followed behind ; but just now, when I tur ne no t I could not see ter. Perhaps she: is - dare t a off. Oh ! no, assuredly not; for she would netl er so re•urn home without m e ." Th e furniture d ell se stin a his w:fe were, highly delighted with the con/e boor of a ct' this lithe ch Id, who, a qu a r t e r of an t b• a terwarde war playing about the shop a nd he or , joining apartment. After an hour had elapsed i d do keeper discovered that the child had Yanillic it l sought after everywhere, behind the furniture, R a s Do positively ascertained that she has left. Ther.etelligen• great harm done, fe r the child was sufficiently le • n g ib to manage to find her way home ; but towards abeeDritesterbs furniture dealer's wife made another discovery b i o tite a which had beer Fauna up in the room, near tbe, c e e d b ee ., piece, was no longer in its place; the sideboard he Flit' opened, and four articles were missing front chest.—et udience. 60 01 THE WII ISK EY TRADE.—We have ta ken r 0 0' paies to a,ce-tain th e actua l sta t e o f the ruarke t eei losP et ; key, chiefly for the government of our count r ijet t he e 4 , dents connected nit a this trade ; and we find a decided improvement in price, owing to the ' e leisili s vance ashi Ai has taken place in corn—for ins t a l / 0 0 01 l '„e lers' oats, which were selling freely at 10e Pe r 6 j.; a- weeks ago, cannot now bs obtained under 12s s Oren; barley has risen the same proportion. Th l oet est e he st ince, together with the fact of one of them for „ sive distilleries in this city having supped " o d e spirin season, have enhanced the value o f all honace-In a • and we believe that " new" cannot be bad under 25. ed. indeed, some of the trade refused to sell unde r uge ee b e e and for old, which is beconriag scaren in e ‘ r ceci t the present trade bell e . lamest ent rely conlineeseeo ort - j holders are asking all prices, from 3.. up CO 1,1 0 to age. The demand, genera lly, i s rather iinP r o reerav we observe by tare day notes that there is aeo I te s export far Scotland. —l r i s h P a pe r , TRADES' UNIONS —At a meeting held jai ,e OO , from the various trades of Sheffield, lately Ott; hie town in consequence of an apprehension that . t t serl o o nell intended to propose some measure to' of the working classes to cambiae, the f. 110 Mn,. were unenimously arced to. Moved b y on e , 95 0., seconded by Mr. Makin—" Tlmst the meetnfol"en to To. restyle rego letr od nion that it was the inherent right of the w er _ t i o n for I d and support Trades' Unions, as the only prot r ee waelle., t ee only property, their labour." Moved by ' netionea seconded by Mr. Tee lor—" That it was the e r r ioe s etl t ee meeting, that it was necessary far the, inclu" ose d l a t e , to watch with vigilance any measur..s for t he p t o Legislature to restrict their right to meet le' ert y, a., t e lion of their labour, generally their only pro i l; e i ng et o e ir , same time they protested against any r esort ACg Of acts of violence, of any kind, for that perPe. se , rell i fr e sor mittee was appointed, and it was resolved tna. es to ros e- senb • the proceedings of the meeting be forwarded jee M.P., requesting him carefully se watch any en„ Tra eyrie which Mr. O'Connell might adopt resPc d pa. ia On Tuesday, Hubbard, the cousin an _ o d e rc ti; Unions, and to inform the Committee of then' es peetl f of the unfortunat'e Eliza Gritnwood, who wat i. 7 use Of ( P c , the Waterloo -road, in 1838, died at th e i i i u bbsro brother in Castle-street, B oro ugh-mark b et aorgi .ipzi_ ele tested his ignorance of the murderer of his 11 0 , ic e c i oi ]alive to the last, and immediately e started up in his bed, exclaiming, If the a rro o to you—l come to you I" and, fall i ng into Sc PP s;ster-in-law, expired. I ools for th . Mr. Gibson, the Inspector of Sc ction sronl o o land, has been in town to receive final instrue_ an ess.eno, Committee of Council, before be commonc_hs be trill o e tour of inspection in Scotland, during walc dead in the ir amine the schools of the Church of S . ee tie , of MA SP ae Pr h e o s o b i y a t . cries, which have invited the Ins P ee ELL S en° • RETIREMENT OF MADEMOIS .001 medal, cOnl el " — of T m h d e n p e r . es m en ar t a 7o th n e th fi w oa il l l r c e lo tr s e e a t t h o e being fixed for the last day of MarftelhatFattr•icrelli-Pan-t al. 11.