The Sun. — London, England, 1841-08-25 00:00:00

7- EVENING SUN mit - to- - their Lordships' consideration, were ques tions some of them • involving the best interests of the country—interests, many of them of such immense importance to the future prosperity and stability of the country, that he feared it would be neces sary for him, in addressing the House on that occasion, to enter more into detail • and argument on those occasions, than he " Would otherwise have done. He would, however, endeavour se' to discharge his duty as to lay himself open to as little objection as pos sible.'• There were Many topics in the Speech which he was quite sure would meet with the concurrence of their LordshipS. He was quite sure he should meet with concurrence in expressing • the satisfaction they must • all . feel at the friendly . communications her, Majesty had received from foreign Powers. He was sure they would all express their satis faction at hearing that a state of peace was preserved in Europe. Iliewas sorry that they could not also con gratulate her Majesty on the favourable termination of the warlike measures we had adopted for our defence in China. That was certainly a point of great difficulty, and one re specting which be was sure their Lordships would unite in the feelings of regret expressed by her Majesty. With respect to other. topics ; respecting the mediation of tier Majesty between Spain and Portugal, he was - :sure, also, of the - unanimous expression of their satisfac flow: With respect to the debt of Canada, it was al ; hided to in such a manner as to be, he apprehended, a subject more proper to be brought forward originally in the. other House.; but lie was sure they *mild concur with her Majesty's recommendation to contribute as far as was consistent with the interests of - this country to complete the union that had taken place between. the two countries.—(Hear, hear, hear.) On this subject he could not avoid expressing his gratification at the ability his Noble Friend the Governor-General, had shown in the conduct of his govertiment.—(Cheers.) It was impossible for him (Lord Spencer), intimately as he had been acquainted with the Noble Lord, not to feel deeply upon this subject. The next topic to which he wished to call their attention, was the effect of the treaty of July. The object of that treaty had been fully attained without involving us in an European war. He confessed that when he was made aware that this country had concluded a treaty to which France was no party—a treaty which involved the necessity of employing force—he con fessed that he feared it could never be carried out without leading us and Europe into war, one of the greatest calamities which could be inflicted upon the world. He did feel great regret when he found that the treaty had been entered into, and that France was ex cluded from it—he regretted that his Noble . Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had abandoned that line of policy ; which, during his a dministration of that offiee, had secured the peace of Europe and of the world. But he must confess that although he did feel that regret, he did not . do so now. When he read the candid avowal of M. Thiers—(Cheers)—of his motives, and when he considered the weakness, much greater than he had imagined, of the Pacha of Egypt— • when he considered the whole course of events, he eonfi that he had been mistaken—(cheers) —and that, the GovernMent had taken the proper and only Conrse:.pecessary for the best interests of the country. (Cheers.) He was perfectly ready to avow that he had been mistaken in his views.. He was most happy that we were now again connected with France in amity, and • were acting with her in our system of European policy. He thought it was the greatest object for the preserva tion of the peace of Europe, for the best interests of both countries that France and England should be united in the closest amity—(Cheers)—in all negocia tions wherever it was found to be possible ; it was of the utmost importance that we should endeavour to keep on friendly terms with each other, and so really and truly maintain the peace of Europe. His firm opinion was that so long as they were united there would be no fear of an European war. — (Cheers.) War he looked upon as one of the greatest of calamities. lie did not fear it, for he believed that this country was as prepared for.war as ever ; but he con sidered war not only as a great calamity, but unless it could be most fully justified he considered it as one of the greatest of crimes. —(Cheers.) He would repeat that he fully believed that this country was not unprepared for war—on the contrary, the state of the country was such, that if the necessity for war should unhappily arise, the state of our resources was such that we could enter upon it quite as well, if not in better, circumstances than formerly. It was true that the debt of the country was greatly in creased—it was true that their engagements with the public creditor were much greater than when they com menced the last war ; but he was sure that, look ing at the state of the country and the resources that were at their command —comparing the present wealth and strength of the country with what it was in 1792—he believed he was justified in saying that the wealth of the country had increased much more in proportion than the amount of the debt, and he did not apprehend that they had any reason to fear a war. But, as he had said before, war was a great crime for any country to be guilty of engag ing i n , and therefore it was with the greatest satisfaction he was'enabled to congratulate them that they were again united in friendly relations with France, and that the peace of Europe was likely to be preserved.—(Hear, hear.) As lie had before said, he believed that the wealth and resources of the country had increased in a greater proportion than the amount of the debt, but, in order to give that wealth its true effect—(Hear, hear) — in order that that wealth might tell, as it ought to tell, upon' the prosperity of the people, and in order that it might tell, as it ought to tell,. on the burdens • that were imposed - upon the people—it was necessary that they should take fully and calmly into consideration the mode in which these taxes were imposed—(Hear, hear)—so that they might, if possible, make them press with less severity upon the • people. With regard to that question it was rather a diffi cult topic to deal with, and one not very agreeable to any assembly, and to their Lordships it could not be more agreeable than any other—namely, a discussion of the general principles of taxation and commerce. But it was the duty of the Legislature to look at these ques tions, in managing the affairs of that great country— ,. it was their duty to look at them fairly and steadily, and to see what were the principles • upon which the commercial prosperity of the country could be best founded, and to consider whether • these principles were carried out by the mode in which the taxation of the country was at present imposed. Their taxation was at present upon the principle of re striction. They had undoubtedly, of late years, to a certain degree, relieved the country from those restric tions ; but they had yet a great deal to do before they Were justified in saying that the taxation of the country, and the mode in which it was levied, was based upon the principles of commercial prosperity--(Cheers.) He believed - no one objected to what were called the general principles of commercial prosperity. They were founded on argu ments so clear and convincing, that it was impossible for any one to resist them. Every one was agreed that the best course to pursue was to give commerce its free course—not to interfere with the distribution of capital, but allow every man to apply his resources in the manner he thought most advantageous.—(Cheers.) This principle had been proved to be the best mode in which the resources of the country could be supplied It had generally been admitted in arguing this question that general principles were best, but he had found that particular interests required particular principles to be applied. He had had the honour of being a member of the Committee on Fo reign Commerce, and in that Committee, although : v . all agreed that general principles were best, yet he had continually to contend with different • sections of the Committee on different subjects. It was admitted that general principles were good, but England, it was said, was so situated that they could not be generally applied.—(Hear, hear.) Now what, he would ask, was the situation of England. It was true it was peculiar in having to pay to the ' public creditor a • great amount ; it was peculiar also in having to pay a large amount of taxes. There was also other peculiarities, but those that he had referred to were the great ones.--(llear, hear.) It was said that England was so situated that it was impossible to compete with foreign countries without protection. If such was the case, was it not, he would ask, most desirable that the burthen of the people should be .lightened.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That might be done better by redeeming the annuity which the country had to pay, or to increase the commerce of the country. Such being the case the Go vernment, under the hope of increasing the wealth ,of the country, and thereby enable it to pay the public creditor with greater ease, had brought forward in the , last Session certain measures : and for hi s o w n part he felt bound to say that the veil- amount of the debt added to the importance of adopting such measures as would increase the means of the country to pay the public creditors.—(Hear, hear.) The country- was n ow in a situation in which it ought to endeavour as fist as it could to apply the true principles of free trade. With t h at view her Majesty had directed the Lords Commissoners to call the attention of the House of Parliam ent t o the subject. In the co urse of the last session her Maje s ty' s Ministers had brought forward seve ral measures for the purpose of taking of the restrictions • on trade, among them was a new arrangement of the Timber Duties. The law with respect - to that subject, caused parties in the country- to use the worst of timber, & e ., may, notwithstanding it had been found even politic to take timber across the A tlantic, fling it back again.--(Cheers.) Was not such a state of . the law absurd ?—(Hear, hear.) Now the measure which had been brought forward by her Majesty's GoV - ernment would, if carried, have the ef fect of. ,giving to the people o f England the power of selecting timber of the best description at a reasonable price.(Hear, hear.) Another measure th a t h a d been brought forward in the last .session was with respect to the Sugar Duties, and the same obser vations: that applied to the Timber Duties applied equally, to the Sugar Duties. The effect of the Present. Sugar Duties was to increase greatly the ex penses of the middle and lower classes, and thereby it in jured the revenue. But it was said if the present restric tion on the introduction of certain sugar was taken off it would have the effect of interfering with that noble • measure which was an honour to this country—he al luded to the abolition of the slave-trade. Now, for his own part, he believed it would have no such effect, and if he thought it would he would be the last person to advocate it. That great measure had done much good ; nut it could. never be carried fully into effect until • the country succeeded in getting other countries to follow its example.—(Hear, hear.) In short, . until . slavery ' • was extinguished over the whole world.—(Hear, hear.) • They must remember that whenever there was a compe tition between• free labour and slave labour, free labour always had the advantage. The next question was that recommended to their attention specifically in the li e speech from the Throne, namely the state of the laws Onsiresgelating the importation of corn. On this subject ~ the most extravagant opinions had been entertained. el/The statements on both sides were many of them incon .ceirable ard impossible. He believed them to be complete and entire exaggerationa.—(llear, hear.) If he could believe either of them on the one side or the other, al • though•heahad-long been a decided advocate -for-the-re peal of . those laws, he certainly should pause be fore he could consent to it.—(Hear, hear.) , Depending, 'as he (lid, entirely 311 the produce of the land, and having been always closely con nected with those interested in its produce, he might be biassed in his opinions, but he should say that if any thing like what was alleged by those who promoted the repeal • of these laws, or by. those who opposed it could take place, namely, that the price of corn would so fall as to throw thousands of acres out of cultivation —he said that in his opinion nothing could be more disad vantageous to the country.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But he was perfectly satisfied that the Corn-laws were no protection to the agriculturist.—(Cheers and counter cheering.) He did not believe that by the abolition of the Corn-laws the price of corn would be materially altered in this country. He believed there could be no doubt— indeed it was a mere question of common sense—that no article could be materially reduced in price, unless in the course of years the price of cost was greater than that of produce. Therefore, whatever might be the most expensive mode of cultivation necessary to supply the wants of the people it must be at a price that would regulate the price of corn. The price in this country depended on the expense of cultivation of the land, on the cost of production. When it was said that the re peal of the Corn laws would throw land out of culti vation, it was forgotten that the worst • land, if thrown out of cultivation, because a barren waste. If, therefore, from any change, it was found less profitable to grow wheat, the first land that went out of cultiva tion was anything but corn land.—(hear, hear.) He thought it utterly impossible that the price of corn should be diminished in any material degree by the pro posed alterations in the existing laws.—(llear, During the period which the Corn-laws had existed we had imported no less than 11,300,000 quarters of foreign corn, and only 1,300,000 of the whole quantity had been introduced when the duty was above 13s. Bd., that was to say, when the price of wheat in this country was above 695. Their Lordships would see by that calcula tion that from 1815 up to the present time it had never been worth the while • of the foreigner to import corn, unless he was enabled to obtain at least 565. for it free of the duty. These were facts which could not be disputed by any one, although some of their Lordships might contend that they did not contradict any of their favourite theories. But another case was often stated. It was often said that in the Channel Islands, the average price of corn did not ex ceed 41s. No doubt. the fact was so, but they would find that whenever the ports in this country were open the prices in those islands immediately rose, and, when they shut they as immediately fell. Their trade and prices depended on this' country, and he (Earl Spencer) did not believe it was possible that any large quantity of corn could be introduced at any materially reduced price. More corn would undoubtedly be grown, but their Lord ships need be under no apprehension of the result. He felt painfully sensible that his arguments would have but little weight with the majority of their Lordships. He, however, had someconsolation in the fact, that during the greater part of his life he had been one of a minority ; but he had always seen that those measures which had been most strenuously urged by him and his friends had been Successful.—(Hear, hear.) He felt confident that the question of an alteration in the Corn-laws and free dom of trade would yet, and soon, be triumPhant.— (Cheers.) It might be asked of him what great advan tages he expected from an alteration in the Corn-laws, when he did not expect any great reduction in the price? The advantages he contemplated were to be obtained by raising the price of corn on the Continent.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to see the price raised there, in order that their manufacturers might not be able to compete with ours, with such advantages as they now possessed, and that they might not be induced to turn their attention so .exclusively to manufactures. In his opinion the opening of the trade upon a fixed basis would prove of the utmost advantage to all the interests of this country ; it would increase the prosperity of our manufactures and, consequently, although indirectly, increase the prosperity of the agricultural interest, for in a very great degree they did and must depend upon each other.—(Hear,. hear.) But the plan proposed by the Government would directly benefit the agricultural interest, for what had the Corn-laws done ? They ,might prevent prices from falling a little when they were high, but when they were low, the effect was to depress them still further.---(Hear, hear.) Since 1815 there had been no such thing known as any large speculation in English corn. From the uncertainty of the present laws all speculations were confined tp. corn of a foreign growth. If these laws were abolishao,. and the prices on the Continent. were brought upon something like an equality with those in England specu lations would go on in English corn as well as in foreign, and that would tend very, greatly to relieve the farmer in depressed years. He only hoped that if they did not approve of these doc trines at least they would remove them ; and he spoke as a landed proprietor, and as one interested in the cultiva tion of the soil. He hoped they-would relieve them from the unmitigated evil of the Corn-laws.—(Hear.) The law, as it at present stood, by its sudden changes, threw out such temptations to fraud and to forcing up the markets of our country that it was become a serious evil, and he might add hardly bearable. These measures, lie felt confident, would ultimately be carried, but he con fessed he feared that before the country was impressed with the truth of these principles the sufferings of the people would be fearful. The people were at present in a state of suffering, and that the carrying of the present question would be ultimately beneficial to them and to all parties,' lie had not the slightest doubt. (Hear, hear.) He was sure they would prevent the recurrence of.many evils engendered by the late contests in the political world, and that could only be effected by a just and good Go vernment, and by concessions on both sides. But if these measures were delayed too long—if they delayed to give that freedom to the commerce of the country which would enable the persons engaged in it to give employment and to circulate capital, the result would be to drive that capital abroad, and the manufacturing prosperity of the country would be destroyed.—(Loud cheers.) He could hardly conceive anything more cala- • mitous to that country than such an event.—(Loud cheers.) When they considered the vast mass of their population. and the artificial state of society in which they lived—when they considered that such an event must deprive vast numbers of employment--he could hardly conceive anything more disastrous than such an event.—(Loud cheers.) -He hoped and trusted that the time was not far distant when these measures would be carried, fur whenever the capital of the country began to diminish it would go on increasing and eventually put an end to the prosperity of the country. He would regret extremely it' their Lordships and the other House of Parliament should not agree to the re commendations 'contained in the Speech from the throne. Her Majesty's Ministers must stand or fall in conse quence of the course which would be pursued on that subject. 'lt had been his pleasure generally to concur and act with them. When they came into power he had felt the greatest confidence in them, and that confidence had never been shaken. He trusted that he should always be able to entertain the same confidence in them that he had done hitherto. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the Address. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he could assure their Lordships that he felt most deeply the very difficult and disadvantageous position in which he was placed in rising to second the Address, and how much he needed the indulgence of the House. His Noble Friend who had moved that Address had ad duced sufficient reasons for supporting the only parts upon which any difference of opinion was likely to be entertained ; ancl as whatever came from him must come with weight, not only on account of his eloquence and ability, but also on account of the important posi tion which he held in the country, as a Peer, as a landed proprietor, and as a statesman—anything which came from him (the Marquis of Clanricarde) on the same subject must appear tedious to their Lord ships. Still, such was the importance of the topic con tained in the Address, that lie could not help stating some of the principal reasons which induced him to give it his cordial support. Upon a great part of the Address ho apprehended that no difference of opinion was likely to arise. NO one could deny that it was satisfactory to re ceive assurances of pacific inclinations from foreign Powers. It must be gratifying to all that the treaty which was in progress last year had now been virtually ratified. The policy of that treaty had been more than once discussed by, and had received the sanc tion of, •the late Parliament. lie need not, therefore, detain their Lordships at any great length on that sub ject ; but it was satisfactory to know that the difficulties which had occurred in the execution of the treaty had at length been surmounted. It was an act of notoriety that a treaty had been agreed upon between the Four Powers and France in reference to the Dardanelles. The for ' mil ratification of it, however, had not been received. in the last Parliament.. It was now, for the first time, formally announced that the separation of France from the other Powers was completely at an end ; that the dangerous and isolated position in which that country had placed herself had at length been changed, and that they might now reasonably hope that all those doubts, jealousies, and anxieties, which had beg). excited Mahe public mind would quickly subsides' Neither could any difference of feeling exist as to the state of our relations with Persia, the evacuation of Ghorian, and the return of the Consul to Teheran.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In relation to all these subjects there was the beat rea son to expect unanimity. But lie could not disguise from himself that., in touching upon those other portions upon which the Noble Lord had dilated with so much-effect, the sentiments which lie would have to express would differ from those of many of their Lordships, and therefore it was the more necessary that he should claim their indulgence.—(Hear, hear.) These topics were unpleasant for him to approach, and he did net know what arguments to select on a subject, on which so much had been written and said by great authorities who had fairly exhausted the subject. But in maintaining his opinions on the subject, he hoped, if he was not unbiassed, his bias would be found to be on that side on which itmight be least expected. It was usual for persons talking on these subjects to disclaim all personal feelings, but he confessed that it egreatlydistrnsted all such disclaimers. Yet, as one whose property and pros perity were involved in land, he implored their Lordships to accede to the opinions expressed in the Address, and to the' alteration in laws which, in his:opinion, did in juriously affect the landed interests.. He said the land owners had the greatest of all interest in an alteration of these laws because they affected the prosperity of the whole empire, and if there was one class more than another deeply interested in the general prosperity and wealth of the empire it was the landed interest.—(Hear.) It was true that no portion of the country could profit so directly by the increased wealth of the country as the landed interest.—(H ear , h eir .) They could set no bounds to the expansion o f the commercial interests of the country, but the land could not increase. Expe-, rience had shown that as the commercial class increased in wealth a portion of their wealth was invested in land, and therefore lend must increase in value in proportion - to the increase of wealth in the-commercial class: But he contended that the landed interest suffered directly i from the operation of these laws. Under them there I must be either regular business of a .steady , regur • ' profit, or there must be fluctuations. • Now he would • I venture to affirm that all reference to the experience of the present law would show that in the fluctuations to I which the trade in corn was more or less subject, the 1 profit had never gone to the British farmer ; while the , loss, when there was loss, had fallen upon him.—(Hear, I hear.) If their Lordships would refer to the tables re- Iturned to Parliament, they would find that of wheat and wheat flour the quantity imported since the passing of this law was nearly thirteen millions of quarters. At the same time the average price of corn had been from 565.. to 575. But their Lordships knew that this was not the steady price of corn, for in 1834 the price of corn was down to 355. to 365. per quarter. If, therefore, the farmer was to gain, he ought to have gained on those prices, but he (Lord Clanricarde) would show their Lordships that the farmer did not gain by the high price, but lust almost all by it. . He. found that in the year 1834 the import of corn was only 11,000 quarters, and if they would turn to 1839, they would find the quantity entered for foreign consumption was 594 quarters. But from the returns he found that, of nearly fifteen millions of .quarters imported since these laws had been in force, ten millions had been im ported at an average duty of 2s. 10111. Now this was what they called the protection of the present law. It was clear from the returns, that when in 1834 the price was as low as he had stated, the British farmer sold all his corn, but when it was at a high rate, foreign corn , came in on a sudden, the averages were worked up pur- 1 posely to let them in (but that was another considera tion), and when the people had been kept in want some time, foreign corn came in, and was sold at a high price, • while that of the British farmer was sold at a low price. He said, therefore, that the British farmer sustained g loss, and that the protection at present was entirely ficti tious. But another view to be taken was that of supply. If they wished to give the British farmer a monopoly to supply the market with corn, they ought to see that the market was supplied by the farmer, and that they were able to derive a sufficient supply from home to meet the wants of the people.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it was notorious that the harvest of 1838 was a deficient one, while that of 1834 was a most productive one. It was clear that the harvest of 1834 - did not pro duce more corn than the people wanted for their con sumption ; and, according to the calculations that had been made, there was a deficiency of no less ' than five millions of quarters in 1838. Now, such being the fact, what was the inference to be drawn from it ? Why, that there was not a sufficiency of corn in the country at that time to feed the people, and that consequently they were starving. The fact was, that this country at the present moment was dependant foi corn upon a foreign supply, and the question was, whether they should still keep up the re strictive system, or by new laws enable the country alwayS to have a sufficiency of wheat for its consump tion. But then it was said that the alteration of the laws might have the effect of ,closing foreign ports. against this country. _, He could not believe that any such result would ensue. Among the many evils of the present existing laws was the derangement which they occasioned to the commerce of the country, and he thought that it would be admitted by all that the.sooner the cause of that derangement was re moved.. How were our manufactures to prosper if the Corn-laws were to be maintained? He agreed with his Noble Friend who preceded him, that even if the propo sitions of the Government were to be carried into effect, the price of corn would not be lowered to such an extent , as many feared; but still if our manufacturers had fair play, by being allowed to trade in corn with the fo reigner, the markets for their productions would be very greatly extended, for. the invariable answer of foreign Governments, when asked to alter their tariffs, was, " Look at the duty you place upon our staple commo dity." The consequence of these laws was, that foreign countries drew from us our best mechanics and artisans. They imported our skill and machinery in order to enable them to make these goods for themselves, which they Would be most happy to take from us ready made if they were allowed to pay for them by their produce. It might be said that might be done. • All the good might be effected by altering, by lowering the sliding scale ; but if they lowered it so far as to be of any use, it would be a mere delusion practised upon the farmer.—(Loud cheers.) He trusted their Lordships would speak out fully and freely. The Ad 'tress before their Lordships spoke frankly, freely, and plainly—more so indeed than any document of a similar nature which had ever come before their Lordships. Let their Lordships imitate it, and if they were determined not to agree to the principles it embodied, let them say so boldly, and carry out their intentions by introducing the word "not" in a few places.—(A laugh.) He called upon their Lordships to take that course, because ; in watching the conduct of the leading men in the political world, he thought that they had treated that most im portant question in i, very unbecoming manner, Such a course would be unworthy of that House; therefore he trusted their Lordships would speak out and tell the people plainly what it was they intended to do. Some ' time ago many predicted that the House of Lords was to be annihilated, and the aristocracy abolished ; he had never participated in those fears, but he would say that if men in high places practised such evasion upon the people, they would give a greater blow to the aristocracy than any which it had yet received. ' The party who sat op posite might say their conduct was well known, and they would continue to give that protection to agricul ture which it required, kit ,that would mean absolutely nothing. It became them, filling such - a high station, to come &ward, and setting aside all subterfuge or evasion to state plainly and without reserve what their intentions were. He was most anxious that they would avoid taking such a course of evasion as had lately been pursued. Let them agree to the Address whether they meant to alter the Corn-laws or not, and if Ministers were to be turned out their Lordships might do so upon a vote of confidence . immediately after.—(Laughter.) All be wanted was, that that House should not equivo cate upon a matter so important ; •that they should speak out openly and plainly, and not take a course which would deceive the agriculturalist; yet at the same time leave it open to them to see whether it would be better for them to please the country or their party.s-- (Cheers.) If the Ministry were to be overthrown, he was glad that it was to be upon so very important a question. When he looked back at what they had done within the last ten years—when he saw they had carried a Reform which, twelve years ago would nave been thought chimerical—when they had rendered a return to the old borough system impossible— when he saw the Municipal Corporations who had much money in their power, and which it was proved they had frequently spent in corruption, fully reformed— when hesaw the manner in which the Tithe question had been settled both in Ireland and England—when he saw the Church in both countries put on a better footing—when he recollected that the Ministry had ef fected all these and other great changes which had been for the benefit of the country—he did feel that they could not finish their Ministerial career in a more credit able or more fitting manner than b) fidling in a struggle against an unnecessary, and therefore unjustifiable and odious monopoly. Therefore it was that lie prayed their Lordships to meet the question at once—to state, if they could, their reasons against the opinions he had ut tered, and by freeing the energies of the people, and enabling them to pay into the Treasury a sufficient revenue in a manner that would not be bur densome, to avoid the necessity for further taxa- 1 tion.—(Hear, hear.) He wished their Lordships would state their opinions and objections to these measur es i n a manly, firm, creditable, and straightforward manner, and not to leave the country in doubt as to their inten tions, if, unfortunately, they should reject the Address. (Loud cheers.) ' The Earl of RIPON agreed in the opinions expressed by the Noble Lords who had moved and seconded that ' there were matters in the Speech delivered by the Lords Commissioners to which it was not at all likely their Lordships would be at all disposed to object, and cer tainly he would have been prepared to follow the ex ample which of late years had been generally fol lowed, of acquiescing in the whole of the Address, except in so far as any particular qualification or re servation of opinion might deem fitting. He confessed he should rather have pursued that course at present than take the course lie was about to take, of objecting to certain portions of the Address, and submitting to their Lordships an amendment upon this. The portions to which his Noble Friend referred as likely to receive the general concurrence of the House were those refer ring to the state of their foreign relations, and un doubtedly lie must say that lie had heard with great satisfaction that these relations which happily fur many years existed between France and other countries, more especially England,had been restored t • ) the State, notwith standing the casual interruptions which had last year taken place. They owed much of that to the prudence, 1 the discretion, and the judgment of his Majesty the King of the French—(cheers) —they owed much to the en lightened Ministry by whom lie was surrounded, who had by their discretion and just appreciation of the po- Sidon) of France with regard to the rest of Europe put an end for a time at least, and he hoped for a long time, to those dangers upon which rasher counsels and less scrupulous minds Would have risked the peace of Europe. —(Cheers.) Therefore he was rejoiced to find that they were relieved from any ground of apprehension on that score, and he should be still more rejoiced if the actual result of the arrangement for what was called the paci fication of the East should turn out to have had that e&ct. But their Lordship's might find that after all the Paella of Egypt was a meat powerful vassal, and the Grand Seignor a most powerless Sovereign, and that the integrity, and the maintenance of peace depended not only upon him,. but essentially on the permanent inter position of the great Powers of Europe. It was not permitted by them to say how long that state of things might last. He was sure it was for the interest of all parties that it should last, and lie believed that all the Powers bound in that league had shown no disposition to part from its provisions. He concurred also in think ing that it was a fortunate circumstance that the relations with Persia appeared to be restored. His Noble Friend seemed to intimate that some matter still remained to be adjusted, and he hoped speedily this would be the case. But he ' attached the more importance to the , settlement of that question, because it had a very great bearing upon another matter 'connected with their his tory, with respect to Which, to his great surprise, the Speech was entirely silent. He meant that extraordinary i war which ‘‘ , ls going on in Afghanestan, the object and results of which were equally obscure.— ; (Hear, hear.) True, :there had been a certain flush of success, and it was true • that British arms had placed I upon the throne a miserable degraded puppet, totally I unfit to administer the affairs of the country over which 1 lie ruled. A British arn-y was still maintained there hundreds of miles from their own territory, in no I small danger, and surrounded by partieS who looked 1 with jealousy upon the, puppet they, had placed ' upon the throne What was the state of the Punjaub ? In consequence of a treaty which they had entered into . with Shah Shoojt and their dearly-beloved ally Runjeet Sing,„ they . shad made, war on that territory; ' they had incurred an enormous expense, which lie be- THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 25. 1841. had iveiedhadabso compelled the I l be G d o a v l all r t he spare n m en tt i, atreasureve recourse u o r f s e i t n o d iaag, great loan, not a very respectable position to be placed in. The ' Purdanb was in a state of confusion, and there they were planted, and no man could say how soon they might think it wise to retire, or how difficult they might find it.— (Hear, hear.) Not a word of these matters was men tioned in the 'Speech, or of the great armaments got together to carry on these undertakings, The next matt .- - ,a-was the war in China, and that was a war of a very ' curious kind. It was carried on at a vast expense, under many very great difficulties, and against an enemy who would not fight. They knocked his castles about his ears, they burned his ships, and called on him to sub scribe to terms, • which they said their dignity compelled them to exact—he promised to do so, they be lieved him, and it all came to nothing. They had sent a large force there which took possession of 'an unde fended island. Hundreds of men died there—(Hear. hear)—and the rest were sent away under the impres sion that everything was done. They then went to Canton, and a treaty was made, which ended in ns thing. They were told by her Majesty's Government last year that they had ratified a treaty, and their si tuation was, net that they were at war, but that their negotiations for peace had not succeeded. They were again at war, and her Majesty's Government had not told them what the war was abeut. He knew not why they had failed—whether it was the blundering of the instructions or of those who were .to execute them. Now there were two questions, the war in Afrghanistan and the war in China, which would justify him if they stool alone in moving it vote of want of con fidenee in her Majesty's Government. Thero was an other point, the state of their affairs in the iNlTaliterra nean' about which he would not say one word, as it was calculated to be productive of serious evil. He now came •to that part of the speech (i n which his Noble Friends anticipated that there would not be an unanimous vote, and he was not surprised at the anticipation, as under all the circumstances it was impossible that it could be an unanimous vote. It embraced the revenue, the general trade and commerce of the country, and, according to the views of her Majesty's Ministers, these three questions were linked together. It was said that these measures were pro posed to meet the difficulties of a great financial crisis, and if he thought they were calculated to do so, he should hesitate in proposing any amendment. But it was because he believed that this was the greatest possible mismanagement of the public finances that he called upon their Lordships to say that her Majesty's Government did not possess the confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.) For the la.t four years the re venue hcd been constantly less than the expenditure, and the excess had been less that five millions up to the stla of April last, and it was most singular that the measures taken to meet the exigency were nothing unjustifiable. How had the de ficiency been supplied ? Principally by tampering with the savings' banks, by borrowing money from them, or a process equivalent thereto, and changing the Exchequer Bills into a part of the permanent debt of the coon ry. He admitted it was competent for the Treasury to do so; but to do it without the knowledge of Parliament for a series of years was, in his opinion, an unconstitutional proceeding.—( Hear, hear.) These savings' banks were the places in which the humbler classes placed a portion of their savings, in order to gild the evening of their laborious lives, being induced by the Acts of the Legislature to entrust those savings to the pub lic custody. But if the Government has the power to take them for other purposes, what security had these poor people? He thought such conduct was quite unjustifiable. Another mode adopted by the Government was diminishing the balance in the Exchequer, which he thought a very impro vident mode' of dealing with a deficiency. During the course of the last ten years, an addition had been made to the funded debt of about one million per annum, for which no provision was made. That was first done when there was a positive sur plus ; but for the last four years, when there was none, it had added to the deficiency. If to those measures were added the hasty adoption of the Post-office scheme, it would amount to 2,400,0001., or nearly all that was required to meet the defi ciency in the last Parliament. In all these matters it appeared to him a want of common foresight and precaution.—( Hear, hear.) He had referred to these matters on former occasion, and his Noble Friend opposite had admitted the most of his facts and statements ; and although he had not ad mitted all of them, he hail not refuted any. When he found the finances of the country so mismanaged, he thought he was justified in asking their Lordships for a vote of' want of confi dence.—(Hear.) In 1840 her Majesty's Government pro posed to meet the exigency of the case by a considerable addi tion to the taxes. That had been done in a very clumsy and common-place manner, and it was ultimately admitted that it had not answered the proposed object. There was one circum stance connected with this matter which was announced on the part of the Government, so far as the finances were concerned. lie meant the negotiations for a commercial treaty with France, which were then going ,on. z This announcement took place when the Budget was opened, and there taxes were imposed. Now, if that treaty had been carried into effect he would undertake to say that it would have been absolutely necessary to have called upon Parliament to undo a great part of what they had done ; hut, however, that difficulty did not occur, because the treaty was put aside. He now came to the present year, and acre he found that the deficiency r 'mained the same —no, not the same, for it had accumulated; and then the Government came for ward with a plan which they professed to consider as one which would put the revenue on a sound footing. That plan consisted in an alteration of the duty on the three ar ticles to which his Noble Friend had alluded; and it was stated on the part of the Government that the alteration would have the triple effect of improving the revenue, extending commerce, and benefitting the consumer. It would not be difficult to show that not one of these measures could by possibility have effected these objects.— He would point out, for example, the mode in which it was proposed by the Government to deal with the question of tim ber. They said, and said truly, that the proportion between the duty on foreign timber and Canadian timber was unduly great. He was not disposed, in the abstract, to deny that the duty might require revision —(Ministerial cheers)—but what he questioned, was the policy and prudence of the mode in which the Government proposed to do it. They proposed to increase the duty on Canadian timber from 10s. to 205., and to reduce the duty on Baltic timber from 555. to 50s. Now, his Noble Friend stated what was perfectly true, that although Canadian timber was not fit for certain purposes, there was a great deal that was exceedingly , useful, and in exact proportion as the duty had the effect of causing people to substitute Baltic timber for Canadian timber, would have been the effect of the measure in increasing the revenue ; but it would not increase the interest of the consumer, so far as related to colonial timber. Then, how far would it affect the interest of the consumer of foreign timber? Mr. Macgregor, in his evi dence - before the Import Duties Committee, propounded a scheme for altering the duties, which lie (the Earl of Ripon) believed was the foundation of this Budget. Ile stated that the duty on Baltic timber varied from 50 to 200 per cent. Now take 100 per cent., was there any person why did not know that a reduction of ss. in I 10s. in an article like that might go into the pockets of the builder, but could be of no benefit to the consumer.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore in his opinion, the scheme could never answer the three ends propOsed ; and with respect to the trade, in exact proportion as it increased in this one branch it must diminish in the other Ile therefore called this a complete fallacy as a scheme of finance. The next thing was sugar. He thought in this re spect the Government scheme of finance could never succeed, because it was admitted by the Government that the effect wonld only be to reduce the price of sugar corn , : fraction of a farthing per pound. Now, unless the price of sugar was re• dusted ono penny in the pound, the consumer could gain no advantage. He was not prepared to say that he thought no time could occur in which the duty on foreign grown sugar ought to be reduced, but then there was the question that had been alluded to by his Noble Friend, of slavery and the slave trade; and, although his Noble Friend had told them, that if he thought these would be promoted by the measure, with all his love for 'free trade, he would not consent to it. He (the Earl of Ripon) thought it must have that effect,—at all events, there was great danger of it. The experiment of emancipation had not been fully tried. He be lieved it was working remarkably well, and would entirely succeed ; but he thought it would be unwise, in the greatest possible degree, to risk its success by such a measure at the present moment. He came now to the most important part of this case, namsly, to the alteration in the Corn-laws. The subject was so inclosed in difficulties, that he hardly knew how best to approach it. He thought he should be able to show that the proposed plan was one in which they ought not to ac quiesce. His Noble Friend, who opened the debate, talked of the importance of free trade in everything, but, above all, in corn, and very fairly stated what exaggerations prevail on this sub ject on both sides. But might not he (the Earl of Ripon) ask, was the proposition of the Government a bona fide one, and, if not, what might be the result, and to what might it be intended they should come?—(Cheers.) If the argument of his Noble Friend prevailed, it would come to an abolition of all protection.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) There! , The mystery was unveiled.—(Cheers.) The mover and seconder of the Addrese, 'before they came to the House, must have made observations on the subject, and he there fore must suppose that his Noble Friend at the head of the Government was perfectly aware, when lie selected them for the purpose, that the moter and seconder of the Address walki argue the question on the principles of free trade and no other ; and, therefore, it was not unjust or uncharitable to in fer that that was the end to which this scheme tended.— ( Cheers.) There could not be the slightest doubt of it, whe ther they regarded this circumstance, or what had been said in a hundred pamphlets, in the newspapers, or in the outpourin gs of the Anti-Corn-law League. If this were indeed a bona fide question of a fixed duty, instead of a graduating scale, was that a question on which to agitate the country to its foundations, and to excite all the worst passions of our nature ?—(Cheers.) How could they settle such a question as this on a fair and reasonable basis, when all parties were maddened respecting it by a violent agitation, which produced disorder and broke up every social feeling. This charge appeared to him to be on the side of those who clamoured for what. they called cheap bread, and never thought of what his Noble Frierel who moved the Address, with all his knowledge and ex perience, had told them--that cheap bread it would not bring. lie dal not think that the institutions of the country were secure when insinuations were spread abroad by persons not without influence respecting the disinterestedness of those to whom was committed the task of framing our laws. Insinua tions of thin kind were contained in the Report to which he hail alluded. It had been stated that the existing laws had entirely failed in producing the objects sought to be obtained by it, but he would show not only that it had not failed, but that it had produced exactly the effect desired.—(Cheers. ) Their Lordships would find on the table, that there was a statement of the weekly averages of corn for a series of years, going down to the end of the last year, a n d in the course of the 12 years inclndcd in those tables, the average pike was 58s. and 3-10ffis. Now that was not at all an extravagant average ; but if that period was divided into two parts, the average of the first six years would be found to have been 595. ld. and the next six 575. 6id. Now from that he thought it might be said that the scheme of the Corn-laws had not failed. If the 12 years were divided in'o three the same result would he found to take place. The Noble Lord opposite had alluded to another argument, and that was with reference to the country be ing dependant upon foreign supply, and he had denied that any danger would result from that. Now he ( Lord Ripon) felt convince that there was danger in such a state of things, and that was the real grounds ' and justification in his mind for supporting any Corn-laws whatever. He could not divest himself of the most grave rip prehension, that if they depended upon importation from abroad for the supply, they would thereby cause the neglect of the growth of corn in this country, and would impose great difficulties, and difficulties that would increase every year ; added to which, he thought it extremely likely, if they admitted foreign corn into this country, and thereby injured the cultiva tion of corn here, the time would come when foreign countries would not have corn to send them. He believed if the mea sures proposed were carried, a great portion of the land of this country would be thrown out of cultivation. Looking at the subject in a mercantile point of view, it was said, if free trade in corn was given, that the manufacturers of the country would flourish in a much greater degree. Now for his own part, he thought there was great reason to doubt that. By far the greater part of the nations of Europe had Corn -laws for their protection, and how was it therefore to be supposed that those countries, if the Corn-laws in this country were repealed, would take the goods of this country at a greater price then they could manufacture them - themselves ? It was said that the Prussian League was the result of the Corn- I laws. He asserted that it was no such thing. It was a great scheme devised for the purpose of nationalising the north of Germany, and it was one of the best guarantees for peace that had existed for ages.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to say that no man w lio had been in Germany would fail to have dscovered that the principle that animated the German people was to protect their own manufactures: they might be wrong in that, and this country might be wrong, but it was a feeling pervading all nations in all times. He believed from all he had heard, that not one of the Governments of Europe would make any relaxation in their restrictive laws, merely because this country had thrown the trade in corn open with them. Much had been said about Russia, but their Lordships must know that the laws of Russia were most restrietive. Great exertions had been made in that country to establish manufac tunes in every part of it., and what reason was there, he would ask, for supposing that merely because this country had granted a free trade in corn, they would unsettle and abandon all these things?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Under all the circumstances of the case, looking to the course that had been taken by her Majesty's Government, and look ing to the fact stated by the two Noble Lords, that they intended to stand or fall by those propositions, and those pro , positions being liable to the doubts he had mentioned, he should move an amendment to the address, expressing a want of con fidence on the part of that House in her Majesty's present Goverment, and he trusted that their Lordships would adopt it. In that amendment he proposed that they should state to her Majesty that they approached her as ber devoted ser vants, and as a body of men who, whilst they respected the pre rogative and dignity of the Crown, and the person of their Sovereign, knew how to appreciate the duties which their station imposed upon them, and how to maintain the rights and liberties of their country. He should wish that they should approach her Majesty with these feelings in their hearts, and the fear of God before their eyes, to assure her that they joined w.th her in her earnest prayer, that all their councils and deliberations might be guided by wisdom, and might con duce to the welfare and happiness of her people. The Noble Earl concluded by moving au amendment to the effect, that their Lordships begged humbly to represent to her Majesty that the public expenditure had for several successive years ex ceeded the income, and begged to assure her that they were deeply sensible of so great an evil, and would do all in their power to remedy it: and that in deciding on the course which it might be desireable to pursue, especially with respect to the laws relating, to the trade in corn, it would be their ardent de sire to consult the interests and promote the welfare of all classes ; but they felt it to be their duty to state to her Majesty, that in doing so it was essential towards arriving at a satisfactory result, that her Majesty's Government should possess the con fidence of that House and of the country, and respectfully to represent that that confidence was not reposed in the present Government ; and that they cordially joined in her Majesty's prayer that all their deliberations might be directed with wis dom, and conduce to the interests of the people. The Marquis of CL ANRICAHDE explained. He was not at present in favour of the total abolition of the Corn-laws. He was in favour of a moderate and low fixed duty ; but he hoped that in a short time they would be altogether abolished. We could not see who seconded the amendment, but it was put into the hands of the Lord Chancellor, who, having read it, put it to the House. Some moments elapsed, when Lord Mel bourne offered to rise, but was stopped by Earl FITZ WILLIAM. who said he had listened with some curiosity to the speech of the Noble Earl. It was excited at the beginning of the speech ; but it was not entirely gratified at the conclusion. lie had hoped the Noble Earl would have stated what measures he would propose to remedy the present circumstances of the country; but, in place of it, he concluded with an amendment, in which he did not point out any one medy, but confined himself to the enunciation of the long well-known fact that the Ministry did not possess the confi lence of that House. There was no important proposition in vol,ed in the amendment. It. said, merely, "We are the strong, you are the weak—we are the many, you are the few ; give us the Government." The Noble Earl was evidently de sirous of concealing the mode in which he would propose to extricate the country from its acknowledged difficulties.- He would not deign to give even a sketch of what measures he thought necessary for that purpose. The Noble Earl ac knowledged the difficulty-- he admitted the deficiency of the revenue, for it was made the very ground-work of his amend ment. The logical conclusion, then, ought to have followed, and their Lordships put in possession of the measures the Noble Earl thought necessary to meet the exigencies of the case. But, nil horum, the Noble Earl contents himself with saying, "We are the many, you are the few," &c. That was not the usual course pursued on. the eve of a change of Administration. He would refer the Noble Lord to what took place ten or eleven years since, when, as now, the Noble Earl was one of the party coming into Power. The Noble Earl formed one of the Cabinet upon that occasion ; but there was no mystery then as to the measures to be proposed. No ; the Government then coming in stated that there were certain principles which they adopted, and certain measure; arising out of them which they intended to carry into effect. So again, in 1807, when Lord Grenville's Administration was overturned, Mr. Perceval stated his principles distinctly, and the manner in which he proposed to carry them out. He said the Government were proposing measures which were danger ous to the Church and State, and against the wishes of the country. But the Noble Earl was a prudent man in his gene ration. He knew and admitted that the country was in difficulty—he knew that some measures must be taken to extricate us from these difficulties, but he keeps Par fitment in profound ignorance of what he would propose those measures to be. Did he intend to sweep away great num bers of the taxes which now pressed most heavily on commerce, and propose a new tax on land, er a property tax, to replace them? Was that any part of the Noble Earl's plan? Let him tell the House yes or no. If their Lordships thought that was to be the proposition, would they be so very anxious to give their confidence to the incoming Government ? They would not see so large a majority, at all events, as they would see be fore the night was past. Well, if it were not to be so, what would the Noble Earl propose? The difficulties were acknow ledged, and great distress in our manufacturing population was admittec, yet the Noble Earl objects to any alteration in the Corn-laws, and he would maintain them because he would not have England dependent on foreign countries for a supply of corn. Now that was a very good topic on which to found a flaming speech in the House, but how stood the facts? Was the country or could the country be independent of foreign supply ?—(blear, hear.) Let the Noble Earl divide the last half century with as many cycles as he pleased, and he would find that our dependance on foreign supply had increased in each.—(Hear.) In the twelve years, from 17Th to 1786 inclusive, the general average in port was 179,000 quarter?. In the succeeding cycle, ending in 1798, it amounted to 321,000 quarters ; in the next cycle, ending in 1610, the importation was 693,000, and in the 25 years since 1815 up to 1819 it was 614,000, while the average during the last 11 years of that period was no less than 863,000 quarters, ro that that item in our commercial concerns was totally reversed to the view takers of it by the Noble Earl It was obvious then that the talk of our independence of a foreign supply was a talk of a thing which could have no existence, and, therefore, it was better not to talk about it at all.' The simple question they ought to legislate upon was the terms upon which foreign corn ought to come into this country, whether under a sliding scale or low duty or no duty at all? The increase of the population was going on at a much greater rate than it was possible for them to in crease supplies. The increase in the population was not less than 250,000 a-year. Could they provide so many addi tional quarters of wheat? To do so, they must cultivate the same number of acres of land, in addition to that now under cultivation, and that was perfectly impossible to be continued. The effect of the sliding made was to create at times a great deal of speculation in foreign corn, and to draw that specula tion away from home grown corn. What was the effect of it upon prices ? At the latter stage of the sliding scale an ad dition of Is. to the price of wheat reduced the duty 2s. and ultimately even that small addition led to a reduction of 43. duty. The consequence was that the parties speculating in corn tampered with the averages, and artificially raised the price in the market. In fact a small number of great capitalists had the power to raise the price of food throughout the whole country. He well knew that that was not their object. They wanted to reduce the duty. But the price of food was raised in a manner that was not advantageous either to the revenue or the land holder. Wheat at present was from 755. to 80s. That was partly owing to the bad prospects of the harvest, but also in a great degree to the speculators in foreign corn, who, by ficti tious sales, raised the price. Had many of their Lordships been travelling either from Land's-end or John-o'kiroat's-House, they would have seen that the farmers' stack-yards were nearly empty, so that the advanced price did not go into the pockets of the agriculturists, but into those of the speculators, so that, in fact, the present laws were not beneficial to the agricultural interest, and he doubted whether it was to the advantage of the landed interest, as disconnected with the agricultural interest. He would remind their Lordships that the land valuers had al ways taken the basis of 635. or 645., instead of 565. or 575., and it was upon that higher value that the rents were valued. That was the true explanation of the distress' that had existed in the country, and of the petitions with which that House had been inundated, and which had induced their Lordships to ap point a Committee to inspire into the causes of the distress of the aer:cultural classes.—( Hear, hear.) Who was the cause of that? Not the land valuer, but the Parliament, and there fore it was that he was anxious Parliament should retrace its steps with as little delay as possible, Jr had been said by great authorities elsewhere that the sliding scale would remedy these evils, but nobody had yet said, not even the Noble Earl opposite, where it was to begin or where it was to end.— ( Hear, hear.) He admitted that the sliding-scale might be so adjusted as to free the law from many of the difficulties which at present existed, but upon all these matters the House had been left in the most blessed ignorance by the Noble Earl who had moved the amendment. '1 here was no doubt that an alteration would be made in the Corn laws. He had some recollection of what was called the battles on the Catholic question. They were now battling tinder somewhat similar disadvantages—for commer cial freedom—and he believed the same succe.s would ulti mately attend them.—(Hear.) How soon that testilt might , be he could not say, but even the Noble Earl opposite m us t ad mit that ultimately the Corn-laws must be given up, and he did net doubt that the Noble Earl would himself be a party to the surrender. Much, however, would depend on the courage of the Noble Earl and his friends. It might be found out that there was a short harvest in 1841, and that it would be ne cessary to have a small supply of foreign corn. They might, perhaps, venture upon an Order in Council, but all would de pend upon circumstances. He cared very 1 the for the down fall of a Miiiistry, comparatively.—(Opposition cheers.) II e hoped his Noble Friend would excuse him.—( Hear, hear. ) He cared little, comparatively, for the downfall of a Illi• nistry, and he was .sure his Noble Friend cared equally little—( Hear, hear)—but when questions of such import ance were brought by the Executive Government before the country, he thought they were entitled to its warmest gra titude. However triumphant the Noble Earl and his friends might be that night, the time would come when the country would acknowledge with gratefulness the obligations they were under to that Alinistry which had had the courage to bring these measures forward.—( Hear, hear.) He would re peat the word courage, because it was, well known that by whoever these subjects were mooted, they were sealing their own political suicide. He admitted that the landed interests were always the most powerful in that country, and it was his I wish that they should be so ; but he was anxious that they should exercise their great power with justice towards the rest of the country. They had exhibited their power, but, un fortunately, it had been by placing themselves in collision with the great mass of the people, and he was satisfied that they could not long maintain that power against the other in tcrests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Lord LYTTLETON would give his vote in favour of the Address, in order to show his approbatio a of the measures of commercial policy which had been brought forward by her Majesty's Ministers ; but he wished to make a few remarks to their Lordships, for the purpose of explaining that his could not allow that vote to be considered a vote of general confi dence in the measures of the present Government. If ever a Government was justified in appealing to the country for its approval of any measures, he thought the present Government was justified in subnaitting the measures it had recently brought forward. He did not think, however, that they were justified in calling upon . the country to support them as a Alinistry, after the signal defeats they had sustained upon the most im portant clauses of that most debated and disputed party mea sures that had been brought forward in the last Parliament. On the 25th of April they were defeated by a majority of 21 ; and again on the 29th by a majority of il, when they were forced to give up the Bill. They still retained their position as a Government ; and although they were again defeated on the Sugar Duties on the Bth of May, they retained their places until they were declared unworthy of the c onfidence of the House.—(Hear.) He (Lord Lyttleton) was too much of a Whig to approve of their conduct on these occa sions. He could nut forbear alluding also to an almost de- funct subject, the appropriation clause, which was passed in a Committee of the whole House on the 7th of April, 1835, and which embodied the declaration that any surplus remaining after providing for the wants of th e Ch urc h , s h ou ld b e appliedr to the education of the people. Now, if there were any mean t ing in those words, it was, that coming into office on the adoption of the resolution, nothing would induce them to be a party to the success of any measure which did not embody them.—( Hear, hear.) Upon that resolution they had come into office, an 1 yet they bad abandoned it, and in his opinion, from that moment they had given up their position, and were standing upon ground which did not properly belong to them. Nothing, therefore, would induce him to give his full adherence to a Government that acted in such a manner.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that principles of liberal policy would in the main be followed by any Government that would hereafter take office, and therefore to had no fear on that point ; but the question was, whether the political character of the persons who were likely to form a Government was such as would induce them to concede these principles with honour to them selves.—( Hear, hear.) On these grounds he should give his vote in favour of the Address. Lord MELBOURNE then rose and said—My Lords, the nature of this motion and the circumstances under which it is made—the arguments on which it was supported, and the fair and candid, clear and distinct spirit—(Laughter)—in which they were stated, are such as unquestionably do not make it necessary for me ' notwithstanding its grea t im portanee. to troubl e y our Lordships with many observations •n the subject. I listened with great attention to my noble friend who moved the amendment. I listened with great deference to his ability, to his information, and with great respect for his candour, and I must say, considei ing the superstructure he was about to raise, I never knew a weaker or more slender basis.—( Hear, hear.) My noble friend mat'e a sort of (minium gailterunt speech.—( Laughter.) lie pressed every thing into his service. He brought to gether what was done in the past year and in the present :year, and then brought that forward as the ground and foundation of a motion of such magnitude and importance—a motion, allow me to say, perfectly and entirely new in this House, and which came like a thunder-clap upon me—(Loud cheers and laughter) since I was not aware of the existence of any spirit in this House on which any such motion could be founded.—( Laughter.) There were many factious motions in the last House of Commons— those I was perfectly aware of—continued motions of a want of confidence, but I never had the least notion that any of your Lordships sympathised or agreed with those motions. — (Laughter arid cheers.) There has been nothing to lead me to suppose that your Lordships were not all reposing in tranquil confidence the wisdom of the present Government. (Loud laughter.) And yet, on the sudden, and on such grounds as those stated by the Noble Lord, you come forward unexpectedly, in a manner contrary to your former conduct, belying all the manner in which you had conducted yourselves, with this distinct motion of a want of confidence in her Ma jesty's Government.—( Laughter and cheers.) Then on what grounds does the Noble Lord do this? He states a number ef objections to the Speech ; lie says there are certain omissions in it—that there is no mention of the proceedings in Western India and in Affghanistan. With respect to these omissions I say there have been no events in that quarter of the globe y'oich seemed to call upon her Majesty's advisers to advise her Majesty to make any observations respecting them in her Speech.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But then tne Noble Lord proceeded to a condemnation of our whole policy in that quarter, of all that has been done, and of the grounds on which it has heal done. Now information has already been laid before the House on this subject, and if the Noble Lord disapproved of that policy, he was wanting in his duty not to bring it before the consideration of your Lordships. —( Hear, hear.) And surely it was hardly fair to reserve , them to the present moment, to found on them a motion of this new and unexpected nature ?—(Hear, hear.) Then the Noble f.ord said the Punjaub was in a state of great dis order—that we had formed an alliance with Punjeet Sing that was not very creditable to us, aid that Punjeet Sing had died. Well, we were not responsible for that— (Laughter)—and it is not very unnatural on the death of an Oriental Prince for the country which he governed to fall into disorder. The Noble lord then found fault with the ex pedition to China, though he hardly entirely condemned it— but I believe it was generally admitted on both aides that the circumstances did certainly call upon this country for, and justified such measures as those which have been taken by her Majesty's Government— ( Hear, hear .) It is not fitting on the present occasion to make any observations on the conduct of that expedition. It would be in the highest degree premature to do so; but that it is an expedition of great difficulty every body will admit, and that it is liable to the difficulties which the Noble Lord has pointed out, and nothing therefore is left but to express an anxious hope that this matter may may be brought to a satisfactory termination. Then, my Lords, the Noble Lord finds fault not only with what has taken place, but with what would have taken place. He says that we have not concluded a treaty with France, but that if we had, it would have involved us in great difficulties ; but as the treaty was not concluded, and the difficulties have not arisen, it is unnecessary for me to go into any vindication of a policy which was, in feet, net carried into effect.—(Hear, hear.) But tho Noble bed proceeds further to the conside ration of the state of the question, and of those measures which have been brought under the consideration of the House and the country by her Majesty's Government. He finds very considerable fault with these measures, although he agrees in principle with all of them. He thinks the principle on which the alteration of the timber duties is founded was a correct principle, but doubts about the manner in which it is to be car ried into effect. He doubted the propriety of raising the duty on Canadian timber, but at the same time he admits the gene ral principle.—( Hear, hear.) It was only the principle that was asserted.—(Cheers.) Matters of detail were subject to alteration in Parliament. On the question of sugar, also, the Noble Lord says he only differs from us with respect to time; that he thinks that measure might probably, at some period or other, be adopted, but he likes objections to it at the present moment, because he thinks it will encourage the slave trade. I must freely say, having as great a hatred and detestation of the slave trade as any man in the country, and being as anxious to take measures to destroy, and if possible to eradi cate it, that it is not by means of commercial hostility, of cutting off intercourse with slave growing countries, that the object is to be effected.—( Hear, hear.) Then the Noble Lord says it is unjust to India to interfere with their trade in the sugar of slave growing states. But:my noble friend must recollect that if he admits this objection now, it will prevent him at any future time from adopting this measure, be cause that is an objection that will grow stronger by time, and become stronger in itself, and therefore give great weight to that objection in putting an end to any hope of ever adopting this measure. My Noble Friend then came to that great question, with which your Lordships must deal, and that is the question of the trade in corn. Notwithstanding all the state ments my Noble Friend has made—notwithstanding all the de ductions he draws from fluctuations of the prices in other arti eles—l cannot but feel certain that the adoption of a fixed duty would conduce to the steadiness of that trade.—( Cheers.) It is perfectly self-evident that it must have that effect. I know there must be fluctuations in trade, that it will change and fluctuate, and that there will be a great variation in prices; but that a fixed will produce a greater steadiness in price, and a more regular and equal current of trade, it is impossible for me to doubt. But the great argument which has always weighed with me on this subject, is one which I will st .te very shortly to your Lordships. I certainly have been, on former occasions, for putting off the agitation and discussion of this question, which I know, whenever it comes on, must be attendeA with the circumstanoes which the Noble Lord has described ; but I always knew that that discussion must come —(Cheers)--that it was not to be avoided, that it was entirely a question of time, and I only beg your Lordships' atten tion, while I state shortly what 1 think upon the sub ject. This great system of the Corn-laws is capable of being represented and charged as having been intro duced and supported for the benefit of those who introduced and supported it. It is the work of two Houses of Legislature, one con.istin,s entirely of landowners, and the other consisting chiefly of landowners, and I:tell you that it is not a safe state of things. lam not accustomed to speak the lan guage of warning or dictation, but believe me, my Lords, in the judgment of your country you stand in a situation in which you arc capable of imputations of so plausible a nature— ( Hear, hear) —and I do assure your Lordships thatit is ab solutely necessary to put these laws, some time or other, on a more reasonable and satisfactory founda tion.— (Cheers.) I do nut charge your Lordshii s with what you are generally charged, with in terested feelings or motives, no man more deeply regrets, or more decidedly condemns the generallone and arguments we hear held on this subject. Ido not think these laws are con demned by the Christian religion, or that they are contrary to morality, and ought to be extirpated and eradicated, nor do I think that those by whom they were originated had nothing in view but their own interests and objects. But, feeling sure that they arc not the products of anything base, or mean, os sordid, I entreat your Lordships to free yourselves from the imputation, to relieve yourselves from the possibility of being su charged. There is nothing so foolish as to suffer dis credit for what we don't do.—(Cheers and laughter.) If really free from the imputation yourselves, as no doubt you are, I earnestly entreat sour Lordships to consider whether it would not be wise to attempt to put those laws upon a more satisfactory and reasonable foundation. My Lords, it is a very good argument to say that our arguments lead to a total abo lition, and that we mean total abolition. But that is not so. We know many measures founded on arguments that went much further than the measures themselves, which measures, nevertheless, are found satisfactory. It is on these grounds that 1 vote for an alteration with respect to the duty on corn. I conceive that a fixed duty is the right principle— that it would be safe and tenable, that it would insure suffi cint protection, and at the same time diminish much of the general discontent and suspicion which at the present time prevail.—(Cheers.) Itly Noble Friend brought a great num ber of small things together, but he seemed at the end of his speech to feel that his stilts were tottering under him. He referred to the money derived from the Savings' Banks, i and said that we had done what was legal, but not what was consti t u tional. He also said that we kept t oo sma ll a b a l an ce in the Exchequer, but if no distrust is felt by the proprietors of the Savings Banks. and no inconvenience has resulted from the state of the balances in the Exchequer, I think these are hardly matters to form a ground for such emotion as th is. — (Cheers.) But, w h a t eve r the real meaning of the motion in plateEnlish is, now that we have a msjority in the House of 'ommons, we will turn out the Ministry.—(Loud laughter. We shall see. I will not judg e ) from what they had said on the hustings- When they come to hear arguments in a more satisfa ctory ughter. ) I must. say , mann er, they mayen tertain other opinions.—( Cheers and la I derive some d egreee of consolation and hope f rom th e argu • ments by which this conclusion was supported on the hustings. I t feel certain fainthllaay that such is the sense of honour and just i ce , t h at when vere in op•nions is based shown o t n o t s h u eni i , th a e trill u s m i e l t n s o . t pe n rs u c t : as I said, this is the real meaning of this motion, which cer tainly I did not expect from the previous conduct of this House. My Nobl e Friend on the cross benches (Lord Lyttleton) has given us the benefit of his su pport—(Laughter)—but perhaps we should have been as well without his support; but I think nay Noble Friend a little overstates Whig doctrines, ashen he said that on the last division in the House of Commons on the Irish Registration Bill, we ought to have resigned; and when he made a strong attack upon us on account of the Appropriation Clause. Now the reso:ution we came to was, that no settlement of the tithe question should be adopted by us that did not contain a provision for the appropriatiun of some part of the revenues of this Church to some other purpose, such as education. What was that, but saying that we would do our utmost to miry such a measure?—(Cheers and laughter.) I say no more than that lam sorry that clause was not carried. I believe it would have done much for the stability of the Church if the clause had bet n carried. NVe brought it forward two or three times in the H ous e, and, when we found it impossible to carry it, we aban doned it. The Noble Lord says that was wrong. But what does lie say to the conduct of Sir Robert Walpole on the Excise sc h em e, a scheme much like ours ; at least making the sa me professions. He said that it was necessary for the repeal of the Land -tax, and for the greater improve ment of the commerce of the country, and that it would gene rally facilitate trade. It was impossible to state the advantages of a measure higher than lie stated it. " But.," said he, "if the interested clamour and prejudice of individuals prevail against. me, I will give up the scheme, and not only will I give up this scheme but I will never bring forward another on similar principles, and it will be long enough if I am defeated thus before another al inister will he bold enough to follow my example. I consider this measure beneficial and necessary, but if I am thus overpowered I will give it up, and not only will I give it up, but I will never bring forward a similar mea sure." And this is what a Minister must do. I e ill only EVENING SUN further add that I do not think there ever was a motion of s much magnitude founded on such weak and insufficient argu ments.—( Cheers. ) Lord LYTTELTON explained The Duke of WELLINGTON was happy to think th a t th e Noble Viscount had acquitted th e i r Lordships of the charges that had been brought against them for the ceurso they had thought proper to pursue with respect to the Corn-laws in the course of the last Session. With respect to the amendment moved by his Noble Friend, he wished- to say that there were ;lefts of the Address to which his Noble Friend made no objec tion whatever. The Noble Viscount had been rather severe upon some parts of his Noble Friend's speech, which he thought was totally uncalled for. What was the course his Noble Friend had pursued? Why, he had commented upon some of the statements of the Noble Lord who had preceded him—he had observed that upon some topics no information had been given, and he had commented upon the statements with respect to China. There was some parts of the Speech to which his Noble Frit nd bad thought proper to move an amendment, which amendment the Noble Viscount had stated, was founded upon very trivial grounds. The Noble Viscount had stated truly, that they had not often been caled upon to give opinions upon abstract questions of policy on the part of the Government. Ile (the Duke of Wel lington) had himself, more than once, called upon their Lord ships not to g ive their opinions upon que s ti on s o f p o li cy , unt il! brought before them in the shape of a Legislative measure; and upon other occasions he had gone so far as to support the Government upon them. But upon this occasion there came before their Lordships questions of great importance, not only in their principles, but likewise in their deeails ; and those questions were brought before them in the usual manner of a Speech from the Throne.—( Hear, hear.) It was natural, therefore, that his Noble Friend, who moved the Amend ment, should state to their Lordships the grounds ueon which ke founded it. Those grounds were, in the first instance, the neglect of the finances of the country on the adoption of mea sures, and carrying on the war on a peace establishment, w hen no provision had been made for them by Parliament.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had stated what was perfectly true, thae, instead of coming forward to Par liament to propose the Ways and Means, the Government had adopted an irregular and unconstitutional mode of finding the means to pay those charges; in same instsnees resorting to the Savings' Bank, and in others to the funding, of Exche quer Bills. Beside s these expenses the Government had thought proper to repeal a large sum of taxes, by which they reduced the revenue to such an amount as absolutely to leave a deficiency to the extent of nearly two millions and a half, besides the large debt incurred. lie (the Duke ef Welling ton) thought that all these circumstances which had been stated by his Noble Friend were surely a sufficient mean to justify the vote he thought it right to come to on the resent occasion. The Noble Viscount had taunted his Noble Friend for having Lund fault with the course adopted b the Govern ment with respect to the French trearve-,Now he thought his Noble Friend was justly entitled to advert to that circumstance, as showing the want of fores , ght on the part of the Noble Lords opposite. His Noble Friend had stated what he considered a sufficient reason for the amend ment that he ha s' proposed. But be (the Duke of Wellington) must evilest that he had other reasons fur recommending their Lordships to come to this vote—reasons which lie sh mid sub• mit to their Lord,hips with great pain, but which lie, never theless, considered it his duty to submit to their Lordships. In the course of the months of :Clay and June last, her Majesty's Government found themselves under the necessity of intimat ing that it was their intention to dissolve Parliament. That announcement was most unfortunate, considering the state to which the country was brought by the discussion which had taken place with respect to the Corn-laws ; and, considering what bad passed upan the subject of the Budget and the Corn laws in the House of Commons in the montbssel May and June, he (the Duke of Wal ngton) could not but - thief; that it would have been most advisable on the part of the Noble Viscount to have avoided recommending her Majesty to intro duce ws r.ls into her Speech delivered from the Throne in June last, calculated certainly to excite animosity in the country, because it was calculated to convey to the public that her Ma jesty had st rong feelingson the subject of these laws. He (the Duke of Wellington) was astonished at the words that had been put into the speech. Viscount MELBOURNE.—They are the words used by George the Third in dissolving the Parliament in 17c4. The Duke of WELLINGTON believed that the case of dissolving the Parliament by George the Third was entirely within doors. It was a dispute in the House of Commons of prerogative on the one hand, and privilege on the other —not a question in which every man coesidered he had an in• terest. There was another circumstance to which he must advert, and which he did with great concern, and that was that the Noble Viscount should have permitted himself to advise her Majesty to make the speech that had been read that day. He (the Mike of Wellington) had always con sidered the Noble Viscount as having rendered the greatest possible service tJ her Majesty. He had reason to know, that her Majesty herself was of opinion that that Noble Viscount had rendered her the greatest pos s sible services, in making her acquainted with the laws, the policy, and the customs of the Government, of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) It is (exclaimed the Noble Duke) the right of her Majesty to preside over this country, andeGod protect her in doing so, but he thought that the Noble Viscount ought not to have embarrassed her Majesty, in sanctioning such a Speech as that which was made in June, and that which had been deli vered by the Lords Commissioners that. day. He thought that the most invidious terms were made use of in she speech. He would take leave to say that the Noble Viscount had no right to lead the country to suppose that those who were opposed to an alteration of the Corn-laws were opposed to her Majesty—it was unjust.—(Rear.) Only 14 months ago he recollected hearing the Noble Viscount use the strongest lan guage against even the consideration of these laws_( Cheers) —he appealed to God that a man must be mad who wished it. —(Loud cheers.) He granted that the Noble Viscount had a right to change his opinion as he pleased—he was sure lie had good grounds for the change—indeed he had read the Report which had changed the opinion of the Noble Viscount ; but before those opposed to the Address were charged with op posing the Queen—before her Majesty was placed in the situation she was now in—all the information which was its his possession ought to have been laid before Parliam;nt. had seen many changes—he was in this countsy when an alte ration was mace in the currency, also when the China trade was thrown open, but those questions originated in Committees con sisting of the first Members in both Houses—of seen cal able of judging on aty question upon which they inquired. It was by the kuowledge imparted by emit inquiries that men could judge of the consequences of such &alters. But what was done here—what inquiry had been had? Why, none whatever by the Government. A Gentle man in the House of Commons obtained a Committee, he be lieved, on the suggestion of the Anti-Corn-lair League, as it was called. When it was moved for, a Noble Friend of his iss that House complained of its comprehensive nature, and asked whet The i h t e t ee i3 ow,errde of fo Trade said into t o h e ohono t a i g o di r n n s a rt : le : lay : h l e sr r es tl id le en C t u o m f m t ed answer the question, as it was not easy to see to what poiets the Committee might limit itself—he, however, there would be net inquiry into the Corn-laws, but that the Committee would classify the information obtained as to the duties levied on commodities imported into the United Rives. dom, and he thought the Committee would be very usefully employed in so doing. That was the answer of the Minister upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.► It was to be borne in mind that it was wholly an ex-parte Csmmittee—(Cheers)—en the Report of which no measure whatever ought to have been foutided; nd what ; e comet tined of was. that bcitre he began the Noble iscou, t put Luse wores in the Speech of her Me jesty. Belore he pus that House in a hostile position to her Majesty he ought to have given Parlisment all the information he possessed, and let them judge of its worth. For those reasons he felt bound to recommend their Lordships to come to the vote of no confidence in the NobleVisconut. lie wished 7o say a word or two on the Budget. With respect to the timber duties he could not help feeling that, before the Noble Lord attempt ed to renew his prose sition, he ought to have considered the situation in which the. Government of North America was placed at that moment. He ought to have inquired whether, even since the ymposition had been made, the Government in America had not sold a large tract of land covered with tim bsr. Then, with respect to the sugar duties, had the planters any information that two years after they had volunterily.given up the awe iticeship system, they were to be deprived of the protection imeured to them by Act of Parliament. He -did not know whether, in the event of the measure bring raveled, they would no. have a just chins for compens item. Anreher class also had a right to be he aed upon the question. 'llse le gislation for two years had been such as to lead to the belief that Ministers were desirous of encouraging, the production of sugar, molasses, and ru n in the East Indies. With respect to the Cure-laws, he would not then enter into any argunleut, but he would be quite ready to discuss them whenever the nitcus sion was brought forward by a Government which posens , •es the confidence of her Majesty and the country.—( Laughter,. and cries of " Oh, oh.") He ear nes tly recommended the amendment of his Noble Friend to their Lordships fer the sake of the people—(Continued laughter)—yes, f o o f r e th ui e tiv s a a t k io e n_ of ( e cr ee i n es th of e lowest classes, let them not lend themselves to m easures w hi c h wou ld l ea d 10-the situation was most singer. taut, and s o was t h e encoura;cOmh oh")--it :ntoC t lnc had passed his life in forei gn countr i es an d i n eiffercut parts of the world, and this was the on ly coun t ry if he were only sober and industrious, would be certain of can ing competency.—(oh, ob• r l i a c t i e le r s t , ha li n e l i a la st d l o v e ee v k er , s s v e l e w o re a i n n y a . where he Lai over seen a poor man, Why, we had instances of ft poorethv every g ym of'al o i ee t n i e ls' r eo country, as d he warned their a n y t .hh had dt There kari,da s te, w da a ni s iyn Lordships never to lose the recollection of the fact. Let them not injure the c ultivation of the country, for he had seen co in had never seen m iser y e q ual to that which then p revailed. H is tries wherein the habit of cultivation had been lost, an d h e strenuousd therefore, to their Lordships was carefully t o a s e c :ures which would lead to a similar resu lt. vovii.coui, those a hi.i t measures MELBOURNE grea t fault with the Speech which had that day been delivered as from her Majesty, and the Noble D u ke had al so t o t a ll y m i s • ta ken what, had fallen front him, for he (Lord M e lb ourne ) was totally unaware of ever having said that those who opposed the measures proposed by her Majesty's Goveri.ment opposed her Majesty. Of course the present Speech, like all previous ones, were to be taken on the reseensibility of the Aliiiister, .and it had been framed according to the precedent set by the Speech deLveied by George 111. in 1704—( Hear, hear)—and upon the settle, when the Speech was drawn up, he thought it was in a milder form than the one then _recummended by Mr. Pitt--( Hear, hear.) The (16161111 km was upon those measures. file Government went to the country with them, believing them to be more favourable to commerce than any others which could be proposed. He did not. think, there fore that. the Speech, because it contained allusions to those measures, was open to the animadversion cf the Noble Duke. Ore statement had fallen from the Noble Duke which be must indignantly repudiate. Ile had learned nothing from the Re port of the Committee on Import Duties. Every thing it con tained was known to him before. He must, therefore, indig nantly deny that any thing it contained had caused the change in his opinion. The Noble Duke had also alluded to his (Lord Melbourne's) charge of opinion on this subject. Undoubtedly lie had done so, but the fact was that almost every one hid changed their opinions. Ile had not the slightest doubt that these laws were founded in error, hut although he was not in Parliament, he approved of there at the time Mr. Huskis - on wrongly 'approved of them ; indeed it was a subject on which there had (teen a greater pro gress of opinion, if he might use the expression, than any other. Ile had reason to change his opinion, but the Noble Duke hat voted him incorrectly last year When be inae!e the allusion to insanity ; it was a referenre to a total repeal of all protection duties. lie had always opposed the mo tions -.Odell were brought forward in that House for the total repeal of the Corn-laws upon temporary grounds. He dwell knew that the agitation of the question ne st come. H e knew that all agi , atton and violence of speech were evens, but they were ireeparable from our constitution; they were the priee which we must necessarily pay for ail Treat changes. Atter a few words from the Duke of WELLINGTON in ex planation, The Dole of RICHMOND, who was 1 eidiy called for, said 'lie felt, after the support he had so lung given to his Noble o ught net to come to a deliberate vote of want of cUorlifidde, he ne ' e, without stating to their Lordships shortly the u gro nds on which he had come to that conclusion. He was Sure his Noble Frend would admit that he had acted, as h e al - - teays would act, its ass open and manly way. He felt that the question of the Corn-laws was one of paramount importance to the best interests of the country, and he was astonished to hear from his Noble Friend (Earl Spencer) who was se dis tinguished as a grazier—( A laugh)—thatif the law was altered the poor land would not eo out of cultivation, but the better dee scription of land, for the purpose of being turned into graziag linit.—(llePr.) Now, what - was the fact--it was that the