The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-01 00:00:00

whom that money was received. The witness athnitted he bad recetvedinoney, hut he refused to say from whom he re-- neived it ; and then came the question—who advised the wit ' pass to - refuse to answer that question. lie had told tbc House • who advised him, before be refused answering. The ques -Sion now -was, with whom be had consulted since. Mr. 'WYNN thought the house had better proceed to con sider, whether the question put by the Committee ought to be answered. It was a question of great eieety. Mr. O'CONNELL rose to order. The question before the flousl was, whether the question put by the Hon. Mem bcr for Lambeth should be answered or not. That questicn was, whether any body else had spoken to the witness upon the subject of his evidence, since he was before the Cernitip.. see? His answer to that question could not pessibly eneno mtahimself with bribery. There was, thereiorci, not the objection to the question being put. Mr. PR AED of jected to the question being put. Tilot4 . ;h anzweii,l , ,, , the question might not d.) any harm' it could no Ps', d and %tom wasting time.—(No, no !) it was assum in g • a most inquisitorial charac.ter. M-. O'CONNELL denied that it was a waste of time. The Hors, Gentleman had used the word inquisitorial, and no improperii so ; far what was the House doing ? Endea vouring to trace to the source the worst epesic3 of crime that mold oossibly be committed—bribery.—(Chttare,) It was the duty e! 'he House to the whole matter to the Leatiotil• Mr. It. WA CON consiilLeed tile question a most material one, as it would ultn7lately eitheet tho decision of the House. Afte a few words trjm fir. 1'3'44 ill . , C. -2 Wyne, Mr. ---:eetZll Scarlett, and Ji O'Connet., Lord J. RCS ELL was oft) to investigate the charge of bribery. Tn.: * was r t ie rsquetstottol n thatfor the Committee to consider. Ile, however, me -o r the the House had decided that the witness ought to ans.. - - question put to him by the Committee. If that was not the case, they had better decide that point first. Mr. HAWES would, in order to facilitate that decision, withdraw his question for the present. Lord J. RUSSEL then moved that it was the opinion of this House that the witness ought to answer the questions put to him by the Committee. Mr. C. WYNN concurred in the motion. Mr. HARDY considered it a mockery to atoll a witness that lie was not bound to answer any question that would tend to criminate himself, and then immediately to determine that the witness was bouad to answer a certain question that was put to him. Mr. O'CONNELL said that the witness had already ad mitted receiving the money ; to say, therefore, from whom be received it could not criminate himself, however it rnight af fect the party who gave it to him. After a few words from Dr. Nicholl, Mr. Praed, and Mr. Wagon, the Ilouse divided. For the motion Against it Majority Prentice was again called to the bar and addressed by The SPEAKER to the following effect have no* to inform you that it is the opinion of the House that you ought to answer the question put to you by the Committee—from whom you received the sum of tool. or 2001. ; and that the House has decided that the question was a proper and cor rect one to be put to you. Having acquainted you with this decision of the House, I have further to add, that this House does now expect, that when you are next called before the Committee, you will be ready to answer that question, on the assurance that this House is desirous that you should be pro tected in giving your evidence, and that you should not answer any question which will criminate yourself. i wish now to know whether you are prepared to go before.the Committee, and, concurring in the determination of this House, to an swer the question when it shall be again repeated to you by that Committee? Prentice—May I have time to consider that question, Sir ? —( Cries of " Oh," and " No, no.") After a short pause- I still adhere to my thrmer determination. • The SPEAKER—You still adhere to your former deter mination ? 119 49 Prentice—Yes. The witness having been directed to withdraw, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—After the answer the wit ness has just given, Sir, it becomes necessary for me to move. " That the witness, in refusing to answer the question put by the Committee, is guilty cf :breach of the privileges of this house."—( Hear, hear.) Sir HENRY H A RDINGE begged to ask whether an in. dividual, who was assured that he would be protected by the Committee and by that House, in giving his evidence, and that he was not desired to criminate himself, ought to be made the subject of such a motion ? Mr. O'CONNELL—It would be much more extraordinary, and abundantly mere absurd, if the House, having decided that the question is not one which would criminate the witness, there were to be an appeal from the decision of the House, to the judgment of the witness.—( Hear, hear.) It would be an excellent scheme of protecting—not the witness, but somebody else.—( Cheers.) It was not the witness that required pro tection ; somebody else was the person to be protected: not the witness.—( Hear, hear.) The House having decided that the witness was bound to answer the question, he thought it was not easily to be concetlei that the witness, after that deci sion, should presume to insist on his refusal.—( Cheers.) The question was then put. Mr. GOULBURN felt bound to admit that the House bad no alternative but to accede to the motion, as the witness still refused to answer the question. Mr. WODEHOUSE was of opinion that no one could view a case of this kind without being strongly impressed with the necessity of some better tribunal than at present existed for dealing with such questions. There was rapidly spreading throughout the country a feeling of dissatisfaction and terror at the proceedings of that House. Mr. D. W. HARVEY -entirely differed from the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. What did the present case amount to? A man crafty and subtle, as the present witness undoubtedly was, admirably well selected for the pur pose of the concealed and deeper villanies of the proceeding,— this man was told, through the organs of daily communication, that the extremest punishment to which he could possibly be exposed, was to be sent to Newgatc for the short remaining period of the Session.—( Hear, hear.) The crime of which he was presumed to be guilty—the crime he protected by his silence—was a direct attact on the dearest interests of the ,people.—(Hear, hear.) In what way was it possible for men of feeble fortunes, but of sincere and honest intentions, to stand up as advocates of the people and their rights, if they were to be assailed by a large and concealed fund, sup plied from the overgrown wealth of the bloated creatures, who dreaded that in the crumbling of corruption they svould be buried beneaol its ruins.—( Loud cheers.) It ap peared to him that one qi;:.'stion more ought to have been put to the witness as a test of Ns sincerity. It was this : " If you are assured of the protectiO of the House by the exercise of that power wideh, as the Suprzsme . Court of Le gislature, it possesses—if the protection of the ik". l .' be thrown around year pure and honest conduct—are you prepeeeed to act an honest part, and state by whom you have been em ployed, from whom you have received the money in question, and for what pureose you applied it ?"—( Cheers.) If the witness stated in reply that lie was anxious to do his duty, but that he dreaded the consequences of the penalties to which he would Le liable, when those who were the foremost to urge him forward in his career of crime, were the first to desert him if he stated that he was ready as a citizen of this country to tell the whole tale of the wrongs complained of—but was deterred by this apprehension—then would be the time to ap peal to the consideration of that House; and he (Mr. Harvey) was quite certain that such an appeal would not be unavail ing.—( Cheers. ) Mr. CHARLES WYNN contended that the House had no power to put such a question to the witness. Mr. PRINGLE repudiated, in the most decided manner, the motives which the lion. and Learned Member for Dub lin, and the lion. and Learned Member for Southwark, had imputed to those v:ho were left in the minority in the division which had just taken place—he meant a disposition to uphold bribery. Mr. WARBURTON thought a very fit occasion hail arisen for making some communication to the House of Lords to consult the Journals of that House, with the view of ascer taiaing in what state toe all for the indemnity of witnesses, Irid been sent up to their Lordships, now was. Mr. 11UME observed that the house had on former occa gees isterfered to stay actions of a much more imeertant na ture against individuals. As he thought it very a6isable that the witness should be called in and asked the question proposed by ins Hon. Friend the Member for Seutie.vark, he hoped the Noble Lord would consent to withdraw his motion for the present.—( No, no.) After a few wore: from Mr. ORD, Mr. Ha :Dv, and Mr. Txcass BARING, the question was put and carried. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I believe I ought now to move that the witness be taken into the custody of the Sergeant at- Arms, in order that he may be examined, from time to time, before ties Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Air. HUME felt much inclined to move that the witness migb'z be called in and asked the question which his Hon. Friend, the Member for Southwark, had proposed. Mr. HARDY wished to know how the witness was to be protected against the consecetences of a confession. Mr. HUME replied that there was no difficulty about that matter, because, if the worst came to the worst, the House could pay any fines that might be imposed upon him.—( Hear ) Mr. HENRY BULWER thought the question to which the Hon. Member for Middlesex had adverted should be put, as lie, for one, would be very sorry to punish the witness, if lie were only deterred by fear of the consequences from an swering C , e question. • Mr.HARVE Y slid that the House possessed the power of inderarlifving witnesses; it had exercised it on former occa sions, and might do so on the present, if it thought fit. After a few %voids from Lord STORMONT, the question was put. and carried. WITNESSES INDEMNITY BILL. Mr, HUME gave notice of his intention to move that a commttee be appoiatcd to examine the Journals of the House of Lords, with the view of ascertaining what progress had been made in the Witnesses Indemnity Bill, which had passed the House of Conowns. Lord JOHN RUSSELL. suggested that it would be better fur the Hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill in that House, to incyire into its progress before the motion was made. Mr. ORD had confided the Bill to a Noble Lord, he did not know whom, but that he would make the necessary in quiries without delay. - The notice was accordingly withdrawn. CHURCH" OF IRELAND—ECCLESIASTICAL BE- SIEFICES IN ENGLAND AND `VALES--STAF FORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in the absence of his Ri g ht Frictid, the Chancellor of the Exche q uer, postponed the recommittal of the Irish Church Bill until Monday next Na begged to move the first reading of a Pill which bad ~ ~~~. jast been sent down frorn the llou.e of. Lords, re . .ative to do vevenues of the Ecclesiastical Benefices of England and I`r ales, and be s'sould then beg to move the third reading of the Stafford Disl-anchisement Bill. The Ecclesiastical Benefices Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next. The Stafford Disfranchisement Bill was read a third time, and passed NEW WRIT FOR STAFFORD. After scrairt conversation as to the form of proceeding, Mr. I)IVETT gave notice that he would, on Monday next, move that no ne..v writ should issue for the Borough of Stnffortl until within ten days of the next meeting of Par liament. On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the order for the appointment of a joint committee to inquire into the al leged cases of bribery at York and Yarmootli, was discharged, and separate Committees were appointed. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)., Me. Sergeant PE RRIN could not rise to move for lease to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of the Municipal Cor porations of Ireland, without in the outset expressing the vegret he sincerely felt that the task should not have devolved upon an individual more competent to do justice to it. He hoped that the House would extend tewards him that indulgence which, even if he possessed a greater shave of eeporience, he might fairly hope to receive, while he proceeded to develope the geoends on which he founded the motion.—( Hear, hear.) Before be pre e ec,e4ej fprther, they would permit him to express a hope that they itentd not *i.pfuw !iirpsthe liberty lie sought, or object to provide for the better re24iaaxi Nf the klee t eleipal Corporations of Ireland, after they had reformed the 6.orpora t4nris of Scotland, and passed a Bill for the reform of the Mu nicipal (forporatioes, of F i ngland.—( Hear, hear.) He certainly felt considerably relieved In liedeeteleing the task, by the re collection of the ample discussion and full egpeideretimi which ""use had eery TPOolltly bestowed upon the subject of the - --erationso t=high ITCII4PEPti it as unnecessary as Municipal lon e ' to etilaego upoil IPP r~u lilacs on it would be unbecoming, or upon tho acelnitages which a Bill of that sort must ree., - •tnnicipal Corpo which a well-ordered and well.regulateu mected. ration conferred on the district with which it ;VAS 'he The subject to which he wished to call the attention of House was the present ertisting state of the Corporations of Ireland, and the abuses which had crept into those Corpora tions—abuses which he considered rendered it imperative on the Government to bring them under the consideration of the Legislature. It appeared from the Report of the Commis sioners appointed by his Majesty to inquire as t o the existing state of the Corporations of Ireland, that the Commissioners found it to be such as required the immediate attention and interference of the House. It appeared from the Report that the greater number of the Corporations might be generally described as consisting of self-elected , irresponsibl e governing, bodies of twelve or more members, by whom the whole cor porate powers were exercised ; that in many boroughs the existence of freemen was unknown , and e v e n where admitted they were, in most cases, comparatively few in number, and had little, if any, power or influence. Would the House be lieve—yet it appeared by the Commissioners' Report—that in the town of Belfast there were but six freemen now known to be in existence ? It appeared also by the Report that in those corporations, or at least in the generality of them , for he did not speak universally or absolutely, but in the greater part of the corporations, that the commonalty or freemen bad neither directly or indirectly any voice in, or control over, the election of the corporate officers, nor any other effec tive means by which the wishes of the inhabitants could be secured as to the choice of those persons who were to ma nage the corporate business. The modes in which the small share of the popular influence existing in those bodies was exercised, and its practical extent in each varied consi derably ; but they were minutely laid down in the separate local reports or tables of details, with which it would not be necessary that he should detain the House at present, except.- ing while he detailed the state of the Corporations of one or two towns, with the circumstances of which he himself was well acquainted, as a specimen to show the general state of the Corporations in Ireland. The commissioners , in describ ing the present state of the Corporations of Ireland, " It has followed that in many towns there is no recognized commonalty ; that in others, where existing in name, it is entirely disproportioned to the inhabitants , an d consists of a very small portion, of an exclusive character , not comprising the mercantile interest, nor representing the wealth, intelli gence, or respectability of the town. The Corporations are, not without reason, looked upon by the great body of the in habitants of the corporate districts with suspicion and die trust, as having interests distinct from, and adverse to, the general community, whom they studiously exclude from a. participation in the municipal government. Their members frequently consist entirely of the relatives and adherents of particular individuals or families, and the principles of their association, and those which regulate admission or exclusion, have rarely any connection with the common benefit of the district, or the wishes of its inhabitants. In far the greater number of the close Corporations, the persons comprising them are the mere nominees of the 'patron' or 'proprietor' of the borough—(hear, hear)—while in those apparently more en larged, they are admitted and associated in support of some particular political interest, most frequently at variance with the majority of the resident inhabitancy."—( Hear, hear.) But an essential, a fundamental, and most just objection to the pre sent constitution of those corporations was, their exclusive and sectarian character.—( Hear, hear.) He could not illustrate this in better words than those made use of by the Commissioners in their Report, and he would therefore beg leave to read them. The Report stated, " That this system deserves peculiar no tice in reference to your Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects. In one corporation alone, that of Tuam, the majority of the governing body is Roman Catholic, one only of the burgesses being a Protestant. The laws which for a series of years ope rated to exclude those professing the Roman Catholic religion from corporations were repealed in the year 1793, by the sta tute 33 Geo. 111. cap. 21 ; but the Roman Catholics have hitherto derived little practical advantage from the change. In the close boroughs, they are almost universally excluded from all corporate privileges." The report then proceeds to state that even in the corporations where rights to freedom are ac knowledged and conceded, the long operation of the penal code having prevented the acquisition of freedom by the immediate ancestors of the present Roman Catholic population, very few have been enabled, since its repeal, to establish the requisite titles ; and after stating that the admissions which have taken place have, for the most part, been the result either of personal influence with the members of the governing body, or com pliments to individuals of wealth or popularity, it goes on : " Previously to the relaxation of the penal code, the number of opulent Roman Catholics residing in the corporate cities and towns was necessarily limited. But since those changes in the laws, which have enabled them to share in the general diffusion of wealth and in the benefits of unrestricted industry, they have risen and multiplied in the middle and upper classes, so that, in most of the cities and towns, they constitute not only a majority of the whole population, but a large propor tion of the more opulent orders. We feel bound to submit to your Majesty that a system of municipal polity, which ex cludes such a class of your Majesty's subjects from all substan tial :orporate privilege and power, must be essentially defec tive i n its , :sructure. It fails to secure to the different classes of the local eere ,::inity participation in the regulation of their own concerns ; and it op. rates far l nrre widely, aod privilege to chievously, than by the mere ; for inCa p persons possessing perfect equality of th places where the great mass of the population is ...: man tholic, and persons of that persuasion are, for all efficnee. purposes, excluded from corporate privileges, the necessary result is that the municipal magistracy belongs entirely to the other religious persuasion ; and the dispensation of local jus tice, and the selection of juries, being committed to the mem bers of one class exclusively, it is not surprising that such ad ministration of the laws should be regarded with distrust and suspicion by the other and more numerous body.—( Hear, hear.) The unpopular character of the municipal bodies is thee, .in . too many cases, aggravated by their being consi deredmorocal, on the ground of sectarian feelings, to a great majority of the resident population, and they become instru mental to the continuance of the unhappy dissensions which it has so limes been the policy of the Legislature to allay."— (Cheers. ) And accordingly in the conclusion of their Report the Commissioners state "that the early and effectual correc tion of existing evils, and the prevention of future mischief, are anxiously desired and essentially requisite ; and that these be nefits can be obtained only by means of a general and com plete reform of the constitutions of the municipal corporations in Ireland."—( Cheers.) It was not his intention to detain the House by calling its attention to all the local Reports on the different corporations made by the Commissioners, but lie felt that it was material to the understanding of his position that he should briefly advert to some remarkable cases, but he would promise that he would occupy the time of the House as briefly as possible. He would not do so at all if it were not that he was sensible he could not do justice to his case without drawing attention to some particular point of the in quiry. He had already stated that in many of the corpora tions the inhabitants had but a small share in the administra tion of the corporate property. In this he was borne out by the Report of the Commissioners, to a part of whose Report he would now draw attention. He found that in 1833, in the town of Cashel the number of inhabitants was 7,000, while the number of corporators, including mayor, burgesses, and freemen, was only 33. In Clonmel the number of '.ebitants was 15,134, and the number of corporators 178.—( Hear, hear.) In Kilkenny the number of inhabitants was 23,741, and the number of eorporators 469.—( Ilea:, hear.) In Waterfoed the population was 23,821, and the number of corporators 869. In Castlebar the number of inhabitants was 6,373, and the corporators . six.--( Cheers. In mentioning these places he was not giving those in which the disproportion between the inhabitants and Corporation was greatest, but he merely picked them out as the principal towns in the districts. In Ennis the number of inhabitants was 9,568, the number of corporators 13.—(Cheers.) In Galway the number of inha bitants was 33,120, the number of corporators 1,770. In Limerick the number of inhabitants was 66,554, the number o . f corporators 271.—( Cheers.) In Tralce the number of Inhabitants was 9,568, the number of corporators only 14. ( Cheers.) In Athlone the number of inhabitants was 11,406, the number of corporators 243. In Carlow the inhabitants were 9,114, the corporators 33.—( Hear.) In Maryborougli the inhabitants were 5,000, the corporators 9.—( Hear, hear.) In Naas the number of inhabitants was 3;808, the number of corporators 16. In Portarlington the number of inhabitants was 3,091, the e number of corporators 16. In Cork the num ber of inhabitants . was 100,716, the number of corporators 2,665. In Kinsale the number of inhabitants was 8,126, the cbrporators 63. In 'Yougball the number of inhabitants was 11,327, while the number of corporators was 221. In Ar magh the number of inhabitants was 9,470, the corporators 16. In Belfast the inhabitants were 53.287, the corporators 21. In Drogheda the inhabitants were 17,365, the corporators 426 In Dundalk the inhabitants were 10,750, the number of corporators 40 ; and in Dublin, with a population of upwards of 200,000 persons, the corporators only numbered 4,000. ( Hear, bear.) There were Ave towns which bad sent no T SUN, LON DON, SATURDAY, AUG UST 1,183 L returns, but the result of -the whole corporators; with the Laiderrnan, and hisson:in law, the, recorder, were present, and exception of these returned,. and they were not of any parti- ! if speaking what was untrue, could have eor wadictecl him; but -tiler importance, was, th a t tire entire bode of corporators . the fates were never controe e rted. • The a a ent of the petrel' might be safely taken at 13,000 throughout the wh o le of Ire- stated that Mr. Bolton effered 10,000/. for a renewal of the lend, while the population of the boroughs was 900,000 ;so lease. In the discussion of tale e English Corporation Bill a that the whole b o dy whi c h re p resen t e d t h ose 900,000 inhabit- great d ea l 'had been said of th e manner in which the corporate ants of those towns, by whom the puliec of tar s : o wns was go- property should be managed ; but they managed things hewer veined, by whom their cffairs were directed— the body which 1 in Ireland, for there was never any psoperty'left to manag e, greeted all the affairs of that large constituency consisted of and all that discussion might be spared.--( - Hear.) lie would' say that whatever the r a nk o f the person, whether he was mly 13,000 persons. I n huge t owns , an d coun ti es o f c ities and towns, it was to be observed that these corporators who ' Lord or Commoner, or whatever his principles, whether Whig vere so di: proportioned in their number to the inhabitants not or Tory, they all took care that no trouble should be given as wily had the regulation of the police of the town under their to the management of property.—( Hear, hear.) Butre :barge, not merely directed and di s b u r se d th e corporate funds turn—as he had said, a sum of 10,0001 was offered by to Mr. and property—not merely had the selection of the magistrates Bolton for a renewal of his lease. The patron said it was too ,f the borough, and managed the municipal corporation—but little; Mr. Bolton .then said he would give 13,0001., and it :iad the selection of the sheriffs—( Hear, 11e:10—which sheriffs was agreed that - the question should be referred to a notary' ; had the selection of the juries—( Hear, hear)—of the grand but in the meantime th e p a t ron decli ne d renewing the I esase* and petty kirks who tried all the civil as well as the cri- all,. and in 1829 he purchased Mr. BJlton's interest in the re ' minal causes of the country. _(hear, bear.) So that those mainder of th e l ease ( two years ), an d gave 2,500 1. f or i t . sorporaters who lien been shown to he a small sectarian The patron's son was at that One Mayor of the town. The and exclusive body, have the selection of tho grand jury and patron applied for a renewal of the lease, and his son, the the petty jury, which is to sit in jadgment over the lives Mayor, at once rid him of all the citaibrous details of value and property of the whole country. . Could it be wondered and premium, which had so much embarrassed the former ne at that the . administration of justice should bo under sus- goeiation, and the Cou r t w ith ou t h es it at i on p u t th e Corpora picion, when was .pleeed under teeeh leileone-e ?—( Hear.) tion seal to a lease granted to the patron without any premium. But that was not the . only power they had. They had also Now, in the year 173 this land was worth one hundred and the power of hrpos:ng taxation upon those whom they odd pounds a year; but in the year 1830 land it Ireland had governed, entirely at their own discretion, and to any extent so fallen in value, the state of the country was so distracted, they choose. The 100,000 inhabitants of Cork could be that this eacolleut Corporation, who said that they had the full taxed Est diseoptic a m ity the 2,009, self-oleeted god unecine nod absolute dominion of the property of this borough to trolletreornorators.- 7 i timid cheer;.) tiow this small body and for their own use and benefit, free, and discharged from managCd tile corporations might be seen by looking into the any use and trust whatsoever, disposed of these 1,500 acres for Report, but at present it was not his province to enter upon 86/. a year.—( Cheers.) The sequel of the transaction was it. He would ask, however, if it was right, if it wee egreeos , this t--When the inquiry by the Commissioners was going on, ble tq the htiacinlas of the eetwaltotioa Or to reason ;hat env ' it Wad found that the property was then vested in the Mayor, hod) of rittionat men should codere that 13,000 seliheloete'd his father, the patron, having in the meantime died.--( Loud persons should not only take possession of rill the corporate cheers.) And this was one of the persons who said that it was preporty, but eras rnie the destinies and conteol the adminis- very outrageous in the people of Ireland to call for a reform in tratign pf jostler: over 000,000 persons.—(Hear, hear.) their corporations—(Cheers.) He would ask the House if With relpeOt tq the emolier to.Wla t the entire Corporation, in that was a state of things whi c h ou g ht t o c on ti nue ?—( L ou d most instances, did not consist of mare than twelve persons, cheering.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite said, " You may reform and as he . had before stated they were generally the nominees the English corporations, but you must not touch the Irish of a 4 lades:s l at!, or connected to each other, being parts of one cerperation3, for you will endanger the Protestant establish family. He Wei4l4, in the nrst piaee, call the ettehticot of the toent,—( Hear, hear.) was absurd to say that agitation ha - I House to the state of the borough of Cashel i and he would anything to do with the call for reform. Agitation, however, enlarge the more opea it, pot so ;mach en account of its Im- would continue upon that subject as long as the present system portance, or its peculiar corruption, but because he was con- was allowed to continue.--( Cheers.) lie would dwell no nected with that Wrong'', had examined the facts as stated in longer upon the case of Cashel, but he would beg to bring the Report, and found theist eotlrely ehaah pt, per facto h.ad solder the notice of the House a case which occurred at Naas not only been vouched for by the PAMPetoot 4nd dispassionate during the year 1832, as given by the Commissioners, but at Commissioiteea, hat pad been the silllject of legal proceedings, • the same limo he would suppress carries, as in the former case.. ' and the records of the Courts of Law In Ireland, bettwe which The case, as appeared in the Report of the Commissioners, was most of the facts came, was additional proof of their correct- as follows :—" On the morning of the 20th of September 1832, flees. Ha thought it might, therefore, be fairly stated that Lord law-ageot, at Loedship's house, by the direction the foot,' gloms in the Repel might he safely relied lipgs as 9f the Piecicai'aaaa---;, entered in the corporation book the follow correct ; and, ferther, that the evils Which appeared tag resolutions :—Borough of Naas and county of Kildare, to in one borough might be solid to exist under dif- wit. At an assembly held on the 29th of September 1832, before ferent shapes in all the boroughs and Corporations through- R. .--so-; Esq., sovereign ; and the Hoe. and 11ev. G. and pat Ireland. It appeared from the Report that " the mole. ; J. ERcirg„ pqrtrppcx, i same,ng other resolutions it was tiou of the pity of Cashel in 1831 was 7,009, but incliiding reselved, that a - ce-form grant for one of the several lands the liberties end commerw it might be. near 12,00(1, of and premise, comprised in letters patent of King James the whom, ws were Wormed, that the majority were Itoman Ca- i'irst, bearing date the 2d of May, 1609, 'excepting, how tholics, perhaps in the proportion of 20 to 1. The state of the e i t o •e n r e , o ar,: o therorescegrvipnr,cln 4cr iiight9toctcii; certain ice-fa; ainclali tit d s grant from thisnd premises men town is by no means thriving or prospereos, and there ist groat number of poor persons in a'state of distress. This is o.9eporatiera to the Right Hon. John .Lord Viscount the ascribed partly to the want of sullleient employment fhr the ancestor of the Earl of —,' be executed and perfected poorer classes, and partly its the itillua of persons who have by this Corporation unto the said Earl of —, his heirs been ejected from their farms since the Subletting Act, and , attd essigoe, sobjeet to the yearly rent of VW. sterling."— who generally come into the town in great poverty and dig- "'Resolved, That a fee farnl grant for one of the markets, tress." Thp Report further states, " There is no considerable and several fairs of Naas, including the Tipper fair, with the manufacture here, and there jg very litge omployrnent for the tellg, else:Wine, ko., tae eoceuted and perfected by this Corpo poorer classes, except in aftvaneltore, end eeet this is very un- ration until to the Right Hon. John Earl of —, certain; because, at the sett/oral when labourers aro required, at the yearly rent of 9/. 15s. sd. sterling." These resolutions gf the were passed without opposition, To this the Oomlnissioners there is a considerable influx of them from ether peeta country t" and it adds, " The wages of a labourer, on an added no fine Was to have beep paid for this fee farm grant, average, throughout the mi. ere about Bd.. a day without his which, according to the rental produced by the Corporation diet—( Hear, hear)—and this he selectee* only disaieg the time 10 the evidence of the lion. Robert —, was to convey for he is employed, which is about two thirds of the year.—( [leer , ever 'to Lord _ a property producing 3201. a year*—( Loud hear, hear.) A witness, who is a medical man, was in the cries of " Hear, hear")—exclusive of Mr. —'s rent and of the summer of Stash, Secretary to the Board of Health in Cashel, rent of the barracks, and, according to the statement of the in and it became his duty to visit the habitations of the poor, and habitants, upwards Qf WI. o you're!. a vent of 121. per annum." he stated that on that occasion he ascertained that there were The hone* of kilinallock, it appeared, had property at five hundred families in Cashel without. a blanket to cover one time near the town, of considerable extent, in the whole them.—( Hear, hear.) Now this evidence was given by a above 200 acres, and now producing more than 600/. a year, person called by the Commissioners, but connected with the and a fair in the town with the usual tolls. Of the en- Corporation, and as it Was given in open court, and viva voce, tire property, while in the pcmtsAio,n of tenants under de the corporators had an opportunity, if they did not !show to teal:0; 1 4:111e Iht#tiaat 14ey, in the year 1776, granted a lease for come forward with evidence themselves (which they did, three heels with covenant for perpetual renewal, reserving a and he was happy to say that few Corporations had rent of 82L Bs. and a renewable fine of 51. on 010 fall of' each refused to give evidence), they could at least have cor- life. The gentleman who repeiyed tide lease also returned reetod the evidence of the medical man. So that Members for the borough tq the Irish Parliament, and at the this statement was as likely to be true as as any evidence Union received 14,994 Of compensation. During all this that could be desired. Now it appeared that the inhabitants Pried, from the PNecittion of the lease of 1776, the rent of 82/. of Cashel suffered from the want of a supply of water. The was regularly paid, but as it was considered that after the town had been formerly supplied from the river called Bolton's Union that body would be haeleel, and, therefore, might be river, which was brought into the town about one hundred write satinet, 1 became necessary to consider how the rent years ago by Archbishop Bolton, but had soon after been di- should be disposed of. Accordingly a case was laid before vented into a different course, and en Act of parliament pro- Counsel for direction as to what was to be done, and he advised cured to prevent its being taken away from mills which were that if the Corporation were to become extinct, all property built upon it. It appeared that a supply of water would be a belonging to it would lapse in the Crown, to prevent which it great relief to all classes in Cashel, and particularly to the would be prudent to niche a conveyance of the property to poor, who in summer are frequently cuiposad to eateenth haeon- the lessee, by whom it might be applied as heretofore to the venience from the want of water. It was stated as the, opi, payment of the salaries of the Corporate officers, Which was nien of an eminent engineer, that a sufficient supply of water accordingly done. By this bargain the Corporation gave a for the aceornmodetion of the inhabitants could be procured property worth 844 to tho patron for SOL a year. He would for 500/. ; and that a supply of water for manufacturing pur ask if snob transactions ought to continue ? Could the Le poses, could be brought to Cashel for 2,000/. or :3,000/., which gialatnre permit this self-nominated Government thus to mis if done, would perhaps be the means of promoting the wealth, - manage the affairs of the Corporations ? Would it permit industry, and comfort of the inhabitants. That was the state them thusao neglect their daty—to abandon tho town—to neg of the poor of Cashel ; aod it fusther appeared from the Re- bet the regulation of the peliee_and to misapply the Corpo port that the town was not lighted, and that the streets were rate property ?—(Cheers.) Could a continuance of such a as dirty and in want of repair as any in Ireland.—( Hear.) state of affairs be tolerated by those Who often expressed such Now what was the condition of the Corporation of the town sympathy for the cause of the poor ? Could they be told that which was thus described ? The House would be surprised this was a Jacobinical attempt to upset the established state of when he told it that the Corporation of the town, the condi- things ? He proposed no such innovation. He did not ask tion of the poor of which the Commissioners had described the House to remove power from one party to another, as not merely wanting a full supply of water for the ordinary but lie called on them to release the Corporations from these purposes of life, but being altogether deprived of it for the knots of usurpers, and to restore -it to thoso to whom, and for purposes of manufactures—it would be surprised to hear that whose benefit it was granted by the founders. He proposed that very Corporation was a t this moment in possession of no rash or wild innovation on ancient principles. He pro -2,024 acres of land in the neigbbourhood of the town which posed that they should adhere to the ancient but not anti would let at an average at MI I/. per acre. Now for how quoted principles which had been acknowledged lately by much would the House believe that these 2,024 acres worth the Legislature. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman then.quoted 1/. per acre were let ? They were let on a lease of 2191. several charters granted by James 1., to show that the inha a-year. How could this be ? How could any body of men bitants in general originally had power over the corporate pro venture thus to waste the property entrusted to them ? But perty, and were the electors of the governing body. Accord the right by which they venture to do it appeared plainly from ingly, the provisions of this Bill went only to constitute the the answer which the corporators made to an information filed inhabitant householders voters in the election of the governing against them in 1832, for misappropriating the corporate pro- body.—(Cheers.) He wished the House to recollect that in perty ; for in that answer they state that " they are entitled to Ireland there was no general system of rating as in England, hold the said lands, &c. to and for their own use and benefit, consequently the payment of rates could not be considered the freed and discharged from any use and trust whatever, in abso- proper basis upon which to rest the qualification ; and it was lute dominion and ownership. "._-(Cheers.) It was not neces- on this account that he proposed to give the franchise, not to sary for him to show that, upon every obligation of justice and the rate-payers, but to the householders.—( Hear, hear.) The right, these funds ought to have been applied tower a the good only test or qualification required for the constituency was, of the Corporation.—( Hear.) So flagrant was this case that that they should be householders. In large towns, where the if he had known no other, lie should, updn it alone, have con- population exceeded or amounted tb 20,000, he should propose sidered himself entitled to ask for a Reform in the Municipal that the constituency should consist of the inhabitant house- Corporatione.—( Cheers.) It appears from the Report that holders, as long as they should remain residents or occupiers at the time of the inquiry the governing body of Cashel " con - of "any house , warehouse, counting - house , or s ho p . " That sisting of the Mayor and Aldermell o are said to he the ruling was, they must be constant residents within seven Miles of the body of the Corporation; but, in point of fact, it would ap- town or borough in which the premises were situate on Which pear that for many years the alwolute power, both over the they demand the right to vote. Every such house, warehouse, property and privileges of the Corporation, has been exercised counting-house, or shop, must also he of the full value of 10/. by the head or patron through the Ito: rd of Aldermen. Since a-year, and must have been occupied six months by the person t h e h 1777 the patron of the Corporation seems exclu- demanding the insertion of his name on the burgess-roll. s i vely to enjoyed the power of procuring the election Such was the constituency that he should propose for the large n and of the several officers of the Corpora- towns, and he did not think that it could be said that the qua tion,.d , he elected by the Board of Alder- lificatioa was too low.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted whether °° any man looki- Householders of the large ing ;of procuring the admission of freemen ; and of dinpoe- ~„g to the state of the hous e wh A o ld o e- e rm re '7 said ing of the Corporation body as lie Pleased ; preserving, how- towns in Ireland, could fairly say that it was too high. The by having the orders corporate body so constituted, could not be controlled by any e fo v r er g , r t a i n te tin fo g rm th e of lo c a o n r s p , o t, ra c te l e t t r i a te n rld ett ir tile Corporation books individual or set of individuals; they would form an ietelli as if made by the Board of Aldermen. - The late patron gent constituency, knowing their zigats, and determined to seems also to have had the power of procuring the return of act up to and assert them.—(Cheers.) In the smaller towns, the Members of Parliament for the city. of Cashel, These he intended to propose that the constituency slrsuld be com pewers he is alleged to have exercised for a period of 50 posed of persons occupying even a smaller description of years." The late patron of the horeugh was a gentleman of houses, and residng whine the same distance of seven mil es great consequence and ;maid), and the list of aldermen, and from the town or borough. That was, that in those smaller of the relationship or connection in which they irll Stood to towns any person who had occupied any house, warehouse, him, showed the industry and care with which hi sought to counting-house, or shop, of the annual value of .51. or upwards, confirm and perpetuate his power and influence. He would - should be entitled to have his name placed on the burgess • not mention the names of the parties ; but they stood in the roll, and to vote at the election of the members of the coun following relationship to the patron s—The Mayor was son-in- cil, ty.c.—( Hear, hear.) Some persons might say that this law to the late patron-Ist Alderman, brother pf ditto-2d qualification for the voters was tea low—(bear, hear, frem the Alderman, son of ditto-3d Alderman, son of ditto--4th Al- Oppoeititto benches.) He was not surprised that there should derman, son in-law of ditto--sth Alderman, son-in-law of be a eanzidor4ble cliflizoiice of OpiLloh sehjeet. He ditto-6th Alderman, grandson of ditto—(Hear, hear)-7th did not arrogate to himself a claim of being in the right, or Alderman, nephew of ditto-Bth Alderman, nephew of ditto that Gentlemen who held a contrary opinion might not have —9th Alderman, nephew of ditto-10th Alderman, cousin of arrived at a correct conclusion : but he had stated his opinion ditto-11th Alderman and Recorder, cousin of dltoaolOth fairly, that he thought that the class of persons he proposed Alderman, cousin of ditto-13th Alderman, cousin of ditto— would fort a good cailstitlletley, 411 d ho was prepared to 14th Alderman, married to a nice of ditto—( A laugh)-15th maintain it—not merely by theoretical arguments, or speeu- Alderman, first cousin of dist wife of ditto.—(Cheers, and lative opinions, or by allusions to the state and condition of loud laughter.) Now, were all these Aldermen not under the the towns or boroughs, but by reference to experience and sole rule and direction of one man.— (Cheers.) Thu Com- facts.—(Hear, hear.) He would take the city of Cashel, m i ss i o n er s added—" The patrons influence in all things but which ho had the huontir to represent, and he waa sure tl;at no returning the Member to Parliament, since the Reform Act is person who was acquainted with that place, or any other simi supposed still to exist; and it would seem that it has been laxly circumstanced, oho would say that there would not be generally exercised fur the advantage of tiro patron and his so goed, so extensive, or so efficient a constituent body, if friends, ar,d that little regard has for many years been paid to they took only the occupiers of houses of more than 10/. the interests of the city or the public."—( Continued cheers.) valise, than if they adopted the constituency which he _lle had now stated to the House the condition of the proposed.—(Hear, hear, hear.) This holy had been tried and town of Carlow; but, with regard to its property, he might been found to answer well. A Bill had been brought into say that it was leased out in ten leases, all of which the house in 1829, he did not know by whom (the 9th of were in the hands of the family of the patron. Thare were George IV.), by which provision was made to remedy abuses facts connected with one of the leases, which lie should like and supply defeats an the adminiztratien of certain things in to state.—( Hear, bear.) It would occupy their time for corporate towns. It enabled the inhabitants to i ate themselves some momenta, but he hoped he would be excused, as it would for the purpose of lighting, cleaning, and watering towns in show how they managed those things in Ireland.—(Hear, Ireland, where provision was not then made. The constitu hear, and a laugh.) During the discussion upon the Reform ency which was appointed to elect the Commissioners under Bill, a great deal had been s a id by Hon. Members on the op- this Bill was formed of the oceuptere of lion2e§ of N. ,er op posite side of the House , in regard to the injury which would wards y earl y value. This Bill p rovided that, whenever a be done to the peorer towns of England by being deprived of certain number of the inhabitants of any borough o r mar k e t the freemen. lie hoped that the same feeling which dictated town in Ir eland wished to have it brou g ht into operation in such sentiments—sentiments which he applauded—.would lead such place, that t wenty-one occupiers cloL houses sh ou ld rneme the same Hon. Members now to extend that sympathy to the rialise th e I.ord Peutenant tan the subject. That his Excel_ poor and humbler freemen of I relan d w h ich they had so strongly lency m ight then call upon the inhatsitants to me e t t o cons id er felt for the freemen of England. If they did not, the people the subject, and that all occupiers of houses of 51. yearly of England would soon see frog; what all their sympathies and value or upwards should be entitled to select a certain num. all their professions proceeded. — ( H e ar, bear.) Although her of corptpiasjoners to carry the laill late epot, 411 such this was not an English question. the freemen of England, Trustees or Unlamissioners must lie occupiers of h e - uses o f who were so much cherished, would see that they were the 211, a-year value or rental ; but the constituent b o d y i s only objects for whom the struggle was made, if their pour comprised of the occupiers of si. houses or up war d s . Thi s brethren of Ireland wore to be abandoned by those who so Bill had been brought into operation in Newry, Down powerfully sustained them. The Hon, 4nd I.,earned Gentle. patrick, Armagh, and several other towns, whi c h i t leas man then stated the facts of the case to which he alluded. Itnnecesa4rY 19.1. him to l'aelltiaa. lenew that it he'd In 1732 a devise of 1,648 acres of land had- been made been carried into operation in several towns most b en ., to a Mr. Bolton, on a lease of 9P years, at a rent of ficially, and that the Qommissioners het been elected by 86/. 7s. 6d. This lease naturally dropped in 1831. But the the fIeP4OPP of 41' houses. These Ptaraniesieoere were occupier, Mr. Bolton, applied for a renewal of the lease in elected triennially, they held their office for . three years, 1825, or 1826. The facts he w as about to mention were and went out together, and might here-elected, but in the stated in evidence by the agen t o f th e patron on whom the no- measure he now.pronosed one-third part of the Ccouricii floe had been served, and the patron, together with his son, the g o out of °Mee annually. The Bill had worked we ll vvii :"`:` vn had been carried i n t o effect. Ile had never' h ear d an (Nee tion to it, or theft it had led to any thing like sectarian feeling es to who were elected Commissioners. He contended, there fore, that the _principle he prop e s e d t o p rocee d i n had been fairly tried, and had justly and truly answered. In towns in the north and the south of Ireland this 5/. constituency had been tried. The population of these places was composed of persons of various persuasions : in some one class preponde rated, and in others a different denomination was superior, and in many towns the two classes were nearly equal, but he bad never heard any complaint. Ile had never heard that the richer class was opposed by the poorer voters, but that wherever it had been fairly and duly applied it had worked extremely well.—( Hear, bear.) This, then, was the principle on which he proceeded, and in this respect the measure he offered to the House differed from the English Bill. - There Were some other differences also between the Bills, which it would be his duty to mention to the House, but this was the principal and most important difference between the measures for the two countries. At the same time he wished to observe, that he had followed as nearly as pea. sible the provisions of the English Bill. It was svell known that there were no overseers of parishes in Ireland, and, therefore, he proposed that the churchwardens of parishes should make out the list of voters the first year; after which time he proposed that the town-clerk, or that the aldermen of welds, where there were wards in a town, and that the lists of voters should be revised by. the mayor. He did not ask for any revising barristers, for he thought that the mayor might be sufficiently checked and controlled by the provisions of the Bill. • In England they had not a description of courts of . ustice which existed 'in Ireland, he meant the Courts of Assistant Barristers. He proposed that when the mayor of any town or borough should wilfully and corruptly exclude any person from the burgess-roll who was entitled to have his name on it, or should place the name of any per son in the list of voters who may not be qualified, that he should be subject to a penalty not exceeding la, to be reco vered before the Assistant Barristers, and this without any coats to the person prosecuting. No man could complain that a public officer was subject to punishment—not for an error of judgment or a mistake—but for the wilful and corrupt exercise of power entrusted to him for the general good. The sum to be recovered was certainly not too high, nor did he believe that it was too low. Of course he meant that 10/. should be receverod in each individual case It was the impression of his mind that a person in office anxious to exer cise his power corruptly, would be the more deterred in doing so by the instant recovery of penalties before the Assistant Barristers, than by the fear of the shame of exposure before the superior courts or the Revising Barristers.—( Hear, hear, hear.) There would be no difficulty in getting sufficient evidence to convict. If they could prove corruption in the exercise of power in s,uperior cases, surely they could in - these. For instance, they could prove that a man duly qualified to register his vote had applied for enrolment, and he showed that he was entitled from the property held by him, and yet the mayor refused to place his name on the burgess-roll ; if the mayor could not give a satisfactory answer, and justify his refusal, his conduct might fairly be supposed to be influenced by some corrupt motivo, and then ho might be sued by civil bill before the Assistant Barrister or the Recorder's Court in the borough. Prejudices might exist against this mode of proceeding, but at any rate he was at liberty to try the ex periment, and he trusted that no attempt would be made to put a shield before what he proposed, on the plea that the course he. proposed was not a sufficient mode of proceedinz.— ( Hear.) If on trial it should prove to be inadequate, w'hich he did not think would be the case, it would he very easy to adopt some other arrangement.—( HMO He would not trouble the House with going at length into many other pro visions of the Bill, which wore nearly similar to those in the English Bill. lie proposed that the mayor and council should be °looted in the manner proposed in the English Bill, but with this difference, that the mayor should no t b e chosen immediately after the election of the council, but that he should, be . elected at a different period of the yet:. The object of proposing this was not merely beca.Use the custom now existed in Ireland, but he thought tle a t it was desirable on several grounds. - For instance, "were might be two very proper persons for tb' office proposed as councilmen, and each party w i fot be anxious to have one of these persons ( .41 `Z`niel mayor; if the election of this latter officer followed, immediately on the election of councilmen, strong party reel inga might be excited, and great exertions would be made to prevent one or other being chosen councilman. This feeling might often operate to prevent persons admirably qualified to act as members of the council being chosen into that body ; he therefore thought that the elections should take place at different periods.—(Hear, hear.) It was also proposed that towns containing more than 12,000 inhabitants should be divided into two wards ; if above 18,000 inhabitants, four wards ; and that all towns containing more than 24,000 inhabitants should be divided into as many wards as the Lord Lieutenant shall think fit, provided that the number of coun cillors in each ward shall be six or upwards. With respect to the sheriffs of counties, of cities, and towns, he proposed that the councils of those places should elect them. There was, however, one objection to this, namely—the Sh er iffof London derry. There was a peculiarity in this case, for Londonderry was not a city or county in itself, but was united to the county and called the City and County of Londonderry ; and there was one sheriff for both city and county. He proposed, there fore, that the sheriff of Londonderry should be nominated by the Crown, as other sheriffs were. Again, he proposed that the council should. have the power of nominating charitable trustees, and other boards for watching or lighting the bo rough ; and that rates should be made. and levied for these purposes. His Right Hon. Friend opposite knew how many boards now existed in the various towns and boroughs in Ire land whose accounts were never looked at on that side the ' water. There existed now no sufficient power of controlling or checking the expenditure of their boards, or if it existed, it was next to nothing in operation. Ono of the boards in Dublin levied 34,000/. a-year in this way. This board not only had control in the city of Dublin, but in several other towns. In several of the towns in Ireland there were no fixed return ing officers for members to serve in Parliament. This was the case in Newry, which had returned a member to serve in Parliament time out of mind. It was a rich, populous, and flourishing town, and yet there was no mayor or other fixed re turning officer; the person who exercised the functions of that office was the seneschal of a neighbouring manse, who was named by the proprietor of it. This was also the case with Down patrick. [Mr. O'Connell observed that this was also the case with Dungarvon.] He conceived that a town containing a respectable and wealthy population should have the advantage of a fixed returning officer, and also possess the common mu nicipal officers. This was to be the case with the towns of Newry, MalloW, Dune•arvon, Downpatrick, and Lisburne. It was also intended that in all other Boroughs the names of a certain number of persons shouldbe selected by the Council and sent to the Lord Lieutenant, and from this list the jus tices of the peace for the town or borough should be selected. At the same time, however, the Crown should have the power of naming as many other magistrates as it might deem right or fitting for any town or borough. lie proposed that his Ma jesty should have this right or nominating magistrates in their places when necessary, because in Ireland party feeling was often very strong, and might prevail in the choice of magis trates. Thus, the justices of the peace might be named by one party, and their conduct might be influenced towards those who had taken a part against them. This might be the case as well with one party as the other—whichever might be strongest in the place. He also proposed that there should be a power in the Bill, by which it was enacted that nothing in the .Bill should affect the rights of existing freemen. There was'another proviso respecting the property belonging to a borough which would affect many places, and among others Cashel.—(Hear.) He perhaps should best make himself understood, by reading the clause : —" Whereas many o f the said Municipal Corporations in Ireland have been, and now arc, seised and possessed of dieers lands, tene ments, and hereditaments,_and the same have been granted to them, and ought io be vetted in them 'for - the pub lic good and benefit of the said boroughs respectively ; and it is expedient to make further provision than now by law exists for preventing the abuse, usurpation, waste, and misapplication of such property, and to secure the preservation and due and faithful application of all such property, and of all other pro perty, which may hereafter be so given, or granted to, or acquired by Municipal Corporations, for municipal purposes ; be it enacted, that in any case of abuse, usurpation, waste, or misapplication of any such property, or of any breach of trust in respect thereof, or wherever the direction, decree, or order of a Court of Equity shall be deemed necessary for the due administration and application of any such property, it shall be lawful for his Majesty's Attorney-General for Ireland, or for any two or more burgesses of borough, to present a petition to the Court of Chancery or to the Court of Exchequer in Iceland, stating such complaint, and praying such relief as the nature of the ease may require ; and it shalt be lawful for the Lord Chancellor, Lord Keeper or Lords Commissioners of the Great Seal, or the Master of the Rolls for the time being, and for the Court of Exchequer, and they are hereby required to hear such petition in a summary way, anti upon such other evidence as shall be produced upon such hearing to determine the same, and to give such relief and make such order therein, with respect to the costs of such application, and to enforce the same by injunction or otherwise, as to him or them shall seem just, and such order shall be final and ecnclusive, un less the party or parties who shall think himself or them selves aggrieved thereby, shall, within two years from the time when such order shall have been passed and entered by the proper officer, have preferred an appeal from such decision to the House of Lords, to whom (it is hereby de clared and enacted) an appeal shall lie from such order." This provision, he was satisfied would be found to be extremely useful in Ireland, considering the state of things that pre vailed there. In many places the means of the people were so small that it would be impossible for them to enter into a contest with a Municipal Corporation. There was also a precodeat for what he proposed in an Act that passed in 1813, and which had been found to work extremely well. The great object was to shot ten as much as possible litigation, and to lessen the expense of it, (14 this ground he proposed that the berg-semi of a borough should be allowed to proceed by Petition instead of filing a bill.. This was in peiat of fact doing nothing more than restoring the old system which ee. isted in the Court of Chancery. There yaw: also provision made for the ressuleticie ss - f the Local Courts for the recovery of debts—arrangements were made and pointed out in various clauses by which debts might be recovered. Debts not c, ceeding 20/. might be recovered in the Court ce; Ikreord of the town or borough by the eld eearee of nii - nmon law, and such actions shall pea i a recoverable by certiorari cr other proccas save saiit'ef error after judgment. This proceaa was very simple, and the proceedings before the trib t n - ial syenial he readily conducted, 4a4 thg ollelatlon of these Courts bu repo ' dered henef i nial, -tAetriin. it 174§ propeaed t o M • Courts or Conscience fur the rberwA— ...-guiate the Courts of Request, as tam .e e y of small debts, or now exi°' ---n e were called in this country. They —et. in several parts of Ireland, and .were found to be Very .useful, and whe re th ey did not now ex i st , it wa s intended in cstAblish them. There were four classes regulating the !nee of proceeding. in- those Courts, bat it ,vas unnecessary fir him then to c;plaia the details. There were sevi ral =Mel not alluded to in this Bill which were to be found iu. that re lating to the English corporations ; but this arose is conse quence of the state of circumstances in England differing front; those in Ireland. Such was the general outline of the provi sions of the measure which he hoped to be able to lay on the table. lie believed these provisions, if fairly carried into effect,' would enable them to establish a fair and adequate municipal government in those towns aid boroughs where it was most - wanted. The Bill provided for the local government of those places. Due provision was made for the establishment of new police force, and, at the same time, for the resident magite.. tracy. With the exception of Londonderry, there were few towns where there were resident magistrates connected with the corporation. Generally speaking, the magistrates and al dermen of a corporate . town in Ireland did not now reside within the boundary of the borough. But, by this Bill, the constant residence el a good magistracy would he provided for. —( Hear, Itsar.) Such were the details and objects of the Bill which he had to propose, which, if fairly carried into effect, he had no doubt would prove eminently successful.—(Cheers.) lie concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill to regu late Municipal Corporations in Ireland. Me. SHAW could not persuade himself that it was in tended to do more at that period of the session than lay the Bill on the table.—(Loud cries of " No, no.") It a pp e ared to him to be most extraordinary that such a mearere should be introduced within a few hours of the let of August. It was obvious that it was utterly imyossible to ck, justice to it at this late period of the session. He was sr.:prised that the Learned Gentleman should have said so truth res;:ecting the b or ough of Cashel. He (Mr. Shawl thought that as the Learned Gentleman had been so loosg opposed to the corporation of that town, he would have eoetained from alluding so pointedly to it. His Right Hon. and Learned Friend must know that even if Cashel waaeihat he described is to be, all the Corporations in Ireland al.ld not resemble it. There was an essential difference betwten the cases of England and Ireland as regarded this q'estion. If there were abuses in the Irish corporations, he would consent to remove them. He could not consent to a com plete change in the system. Might they not devise other means of giving additional force to the means of improvement which now existed in these corporations, without resorting_ to extreme measures. The truth was, th a t man y o f those boroughs were instituted for the purpose of protecting and upholding the Pro testant religion in Ireland.—(Cries of " 'Oh," and " Hear.") He did not say that this was the case in every instance, but there was no doubt it was so as regarded many places. Ho was also satisfied that the preservation of the present corporate boroughs in Ireland was most important as tending to keep up and perpetuate the connection new existing between England and Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) By this measure power would be given to those who were exerting themselves to procure a separation of the two countries. He did not feel called upon to go into .the provisions of the Bill at the present time; he would, however, shortly allude to a few of them. He was satisfied that the penalty of 101. to be imposed on the Mayor in case of wilful abuse of the power entrusted to him would prove altogether inadequate. The case would never be pro secuted before the Assistant Barrister's Court, or if it was, a conviction would never take place. If the person who was to fill the office of Mayor was to be of respectability, they would impose higher penalties, to be recovered in the supe rior Courts. He would rather that the appointment of the sheriff's should in all cases be vested in the Crown. The se lection would be much better than if they were to be elected by the tccwn councils. He expected that he could, not then go into all the details of the measure at that stege ; b u t he trusted that it would be postponed until next 'session. Lord J. RUSSELL trusted that the state of the House would be such on the discussions on thi"l3ill, although it was such a late period of the session, as 'co enable them to go on with it to a satisfactory conclusioe e ,—( Hear, hear.) To any proposition which went to.the., extent that the great principle of the English measure ` - enould not be applied in a measure for the reform of the Trish Municipal Corporations, he would give his unequivoeeil and decided negative.—.(Cheers.) Ho thought that tie House could not, consistently with justice, say that e7faat was good for England, and applicable here, was not s l ; as regarded Ireland, but that self-elected Corporations a:ta irresponsible power in Ireland was good, and should be continued.---(Loud cheers). He trusted that his Hon. and Learned Friend would not only introduce the Bill, but that there would be ample time, during the present session, fully to discuss it, and that it would become the law. He trusted that the English Corporation Bill would survive the very heavy fire which it had been exposed to for a few nights else where—( Cheers and laughter)—and that •it would ere long receive the sanction of the Legislature unimpaired. If this Bill was or was not to sustain a similar fire from some Irish lawyers, he knew not.—( Laughter.) This, however, he would say, that as he had no doubt the English Bill would survive the attacks he had alluded to, so likewise the Irish Bill would be triumphant over any assaults of the same nature.—( Hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said the time had come when there must be an end of these corrupt corporations. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, begged for delay, and prayed that they might be allowed to survive another winter..—(dear, hear.) The time, however, had now arrived, when the power they had hitherto usurped must be taken from them. Do not let it longer be said that 13,000 of these corporators—selfclected and irresponsible—should manage the affairs of 930,000, (Hear, hear.) But, according to the Right Hon. Recorder, the large body were to have no relief because they were Ca tholics. He said that the Irish Corporations should continue in their present state, because they had been created for the protection of the Protestants. This might be the case in some small towns; but in several instances—by far the larger ma jority of cases—the Corporations had been formed for ages b=- fore the Reformation.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Then the Cor porations were framed to uphold and secure the connection between the two countries. The Corporation of Limer'ick, however, existed several years before any English perso n was in Ireland. This was also the case with Cork. Thee. it was said that the reform of these Corporations would tend to sever the British connection. Where, howeeer, was Bri tish connection when the Corporation of Limerick was founded? it was notorious that there was a Corporation in Limerick when the Danes invaded the country. Where, then, was the 13,000, who arrogated to themselves the au thority which should be possessed by the 930,000. He trusted the time had at length arrived when they should have the ad•• vantage of having British institutions. Was not the Learned Recorder fully aware that small penalties were snore easily re covered than those of large amount ? When the penalties were high, and the question went to a Jury, it was extremely' difficult to obtain a conviction. By the plan proposed the pe nalty would be easily recovered, and would certainly be en forced. The Learned Recorder said there would be no con victions ; certainly there would not if they did not by the cases, but otherwise there would be no difficulty. If it could be shown that the Mayor had refused to place a Catholic in the list of voters when he admitted a Protestant under the same circumstances, there would be a good ground of action and a sufficient reason for enforcing the penalty. It was said that these cases should not be tried at the Assistant Barrister's Court ; then let the parties have their choice of trying the ac tion in . a superior Court, or in that proposed in the Bill, lie would not, however, go into details, but he could not refrain from expressing his gratification at the measure ; it was the first time that they had.admitted the people of Ireland to Bri tish institutions.—( Cheers.). He had then no wish to pro nounce the epitaph on the now almost defunct Corporations Of Ireland. Almost all were exclusive ; Tuam was one of the exceptions. In that town a majority of the Council was com posed of Catholics ; but in other places they were excluded, and a religious distinction was kept up. Most of these Cor-; porato towns had fallen away and were decaying ; Tuam, however, was a prosperous town, and increasing in wealth, and no sectarian feeling existed there. In this town there were 4 01.500 Protestants and 17,000 Catholics. The Commis sioners, in their Report, say, " In one Corporation alone, that of Tuam, the majority of the governing body is Roman Ca tholic, one only of the burgesses being a Protestant." The laws which, for a series of years, operated to exclude those professing the Roman Catholic religion from C or p ora tions, were repealed in the year 1793, byrthe statute 33:1 Geo. 111., c. 21. But the Roman Catholics have hitherto derived little practical advantage from the change. In the close boroughs, they are almost universally excluded from all corporate privi leges. In the more considerable towns, they have rarely been admitted even as freemen ; and, with few exceptions, they are altogether excluded from the governing bodies. The Dublin Report had not yet been , presented, because there were so many abuses in that place, that they could not be got together in a shorter space of time. A grea t deal lied been brought out on the subject before a Committee up stairs; and there was now, on the 15th Report of the Commissioners, a judicial in quiry. He recommended them to the Learned Recorder for his perusal. There was no sacrifice which the party opposite were not disposed to make to maintain the existing system. They would, no doubt, endeavour to raise a religious cry in its defence ; but let them beware how they appealed for such a purpose to that feeling which ought to be kept the most free from the reproach of evil association. lie hailed this Bill 'A an earnest of better days for Ireland—she had never had jts tice done to her yet. From the first period of her coesiexion with England, the system pursued towards her was e'eat o f ex clusion. That principle was most cruelly eilfired till 1608. In 1607, it was no offence for an Englishman' co' kill an Irish man.—(e Hear, hear.) It was a justification of a murder if the individual murdered was an Irishman, and, indeed, it was so pleaded : as late as 1607 that state of Wiles existed.—( Hear, hear.) Of course at that period no British protection was extended to Ireland ; since then they bad got it nominally, but there was unfortunately a distinction still to be removed -There remained corporate monopoly, which lie was hapry to say was now the only barrier against their being on a perfect equality with respect t o c i v il r i g h ts . —( Hear, hear.) ''bat last grievance the Government called en the Legislater c now to redress. The measure could not fell to pass this House.-- ( Hear, hear.) It was wise, it was, equitable, it was Christian, and he was sure it would pews this ficuse.—( Cheers.) Was there anywhere else whom the rights of Irishmen and Their liberties were to lie withstood ?—was there anywhere else where they were held to be of secondary importance ?-11: 14 the anywhere else where they would turn a deaf car to claims like these, though they would listen from hour to hour to some buffoon, who amused hituaelf by garnishing everything sacred with a, sliszeirUng ribaldiv ?—( Hear, hear.) Talk of the lieeetelty for supporting rani: and station, indeed !_ewlre was there ever a meeting of au trade that would tele rate for a single minute . vets ',rash as he had a dv ee r e d to. —(Cheers) ? Was cutctv in such a state that men would allow one indisideel s'f a body to drag the others through the Or? by the use a every species of vituperatieen and buffoonery , 4 : 41115i u sound constitutional measure, -He was not afraid wilt this House would not carry alfee Bill with a triumph:tn! majority ; it would then be taken elsewhere, and lie truste d e that a majority wou l d greet it there also. The . v o ice England would be heard ; . if- they rejected the measures, 001 them be, all the consequences. Mr. GOULBURN regretted that the Hon. and Leareed , Gentleman had indulged' in personal attacks, Unicrstandin N i N t ..teh abuses prc ,:srk % N ; l a tri s i.e n \ o Gy t io r yi e l ci s. t: Ic 4rillPt'allllllitat''i.altl3:l';:eiauing‘a:.Y-Mt°dnAilli4anitv‘rn'uttt'llaegsl:::ebtv'g.dth.,.rt;o:. bei ngi aa' i'd'ino i sceitleiBLui've:Larluobp i rt' l Saua t r'sinT v eulid'.l nfeotel'rEunsPehodirl 'iP:Ll:7'cdArdauaruetliiritc°naile'eltt'sPis°lll:bnsdi(Rnaa.st:laaollaeNanly):dorre.etEni°stndtnen'tisr:ditit'.l'll:ljlll t l 1 ° Corporation r d guar,- . - ---, h a l a r that theeee:Peorattti : e b rs, he conceive persist heist in aitributi rest chose to wits uttere-d!ay, HegPre,arvoteht heneallic to have al: ial, and t h ; shortlylne in the „ in th ee arguncyt table of of this Sc t op; n i of the i-iou le as to th e aht : o l:l . e e : : ci r nr e l e tn r e i r n i:lo.w'l e l s i fi d at i: P o w CaeL e i r : et ti f l oea l t Nter i a e n t ti: l ( l ' tlttilt tell Inizreaceciec_( jeydreo2apoi , e rrfint.orop q oonitp,,lei, , i mep l ter a looipli l ovbfito : hda y leresetnsos f ott r fLnsru e ntugo e . eon .heri,: t s l i l sted o f 3 7 Rom, L e Le arned G „ M el l ten r ea a 4 a ut t tr s ie l‘lii rst si e o iear norr ttai . C. . i n n- ie, gPni3C s. a rb d b ic Uß E, P y . te s ß , N l E e s ieL t e ni lK v il v t eN l eos e ECe in c ta,, j be Mr. RUT' 7 wi shed to "I of the Noble 4 1t Itni t tbesiiiihe.Bn i l_ r,..e,idte f nidswe t h h dta e hfspoa p aart a brtt r lshh t ie y al lty of C Colonel resistin, ,(itherthHan,,t of the i .., e . -.se o f p a ° l4 1 Sle : t 1 1 14 : . g deodn t il I that i lte e eP irHe(r;COlelloeldSsltb' Colonel Y t i 3,nli late et : lel ; and after e en w a.s u a n d e dressia;, n'. traii , oeoaw a viee:eri _ ce:rito:.f o r i Lm t e a ish m eoa i rr n na a ntli t i 11, - 7,ns and n r il e , e d , eII t ' l t ' ain e d . Wl] km p the liberti t't t il: h tr : m a eo- 'PA n:t141:101:°ts-tdehntprdnielolvnlie—tyntl'o,Givitto'rone.eeencin"comuairsPrriliri-11,' any i t nation. Th e L nill. Wi ,shottoltrLjOHN R "act* -- "e f 1 Lo CASE 4 4 11 4 A I p , , r ur :r ndi 0 NjVllBll2ll.4NLia of, the " o not town,"lnt u . ted the " °l4 the 1 me 11 the 4 uable 13 subject of th a. 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