The Sun. — London, England, 1852-03-26 00:00:00

Tr r.v. .9; i .T i TT,I, other t.sfq 911cPvgted by the 1-I,lnourable M - n*cf, courl'A . „ . stand, anti he could never admit the principle ot abstract righteo-(tliear, hear.) The seconder of the motion had ob served that he could mot comprehend on what principle such and such things were 'permitted in' our Constitution. Why, we-had not a cut and drieci Constitution-- (Hear, hear,) -but we tried to perfect it - as much as we could, by means of the existing machinery. Obey co Oil have genetal prin ciple., 11 -wever, althetigh not abstract rie,hts; and nne general principle should to to trust in trio peaph , .-(Rear, hear.) It might-be contended that, either from a want of edunatiim, er.fron" their ehittingebeir residence from, plaCe to place, or from other causes, portions of the community , were unfit to exercise the - franchise; but it would be a mon strous thing to say that thete ought to be only a million and a half of voters in the country.-(Hear,' hear.) The people of Belgium strongly resembled oto- own in two, essential particulars-in their conversance vuth . municipal government, end in their attachment to rel glut). 111 the deep eeligieus tooth et thy' people of Belgium was found the best seelfrity tee order and go,.d governinent.• He njoiced ' 'that the present' , inceseion bad taken place at this nar tieuler moment, althouv,b, on the oilier hand, the, idea that any Bill on t hie Aubjezt could be passed this session - was quite out of the 'questa tte- ( Hear, heap) "In support of ttie...e annual !melons of the Hon. Meonoer for M aor se he had always declined cemmitting himselr to a p rticul r plan ( Hear, hear). -wishing' rd . her to affirm' he geneial pr n iiiple-of reform; but be would vote for this or shy other motion which was likely to lead to an extension .on the franchise. He was ii ,w desirous that the.' Government would state. not on y what they did not like in the shape of re-. form, but what they did like, because a Government mea sure might be cairied, whereas - tin independent motion might fall to the ground. He rejoiced at a past declaration of the • oble Lord the Member for the city of London ou the subject of the franchise, but there was also the declaration in the Speech from the Throne this session; that - the state of the tepreem tetion was not satiefactory -(Hear, hear.) ' He.. did not think, in the teeth of sech d e c larations, that an y Government could long exist which oppesied what appeared to be so essential a measure as reform in the Parliamentary" representation, anti any Gevernmen. which might succeed the present would, he thought, whether they liked' it or not; be compelled to bring in such a measure. If, at the next general election, the people pro nounced for such , reform, he did 'not des pair. getting it at the hands of Hon.' Gentlemen opposite. As yet we did not know how the country would deat•witli the questions of Meynooth,Protection,and Refortn.-[An Hon. llember-" Or with anything eisel-aed, therefote, he still had hope in the Hon. Gentlemen apposite. Without expressing any opinion upon those other measures contemplated in the speech of the Hon. Member for Montrose, he claimed to be allowed a free judgment as to any particular scheme of re form; but he confessed he should be dissatisfied with any ... ,rt - tif no n fei to be interrogated, all :the _aavan- ILEA vvtifft/T,WitilgigkoVial-i. He weuldeerge. for the : Lagee , of the rotten borough system would be reaped without the impossibiiity of carrying such a measure iVrr i nii 2 i-- liament as was contemplated by the Hon. Member fo; the disadvantages. Governments would te emancipated, and the formation of administrations facilitated. . Ile con- Montrose, even were the first reading to be agreed on that ni e ht, it was not his intention to record his vote either f o r fessed, however, that if he followed the profession of aRe or against the present'motien. former, he sh , uldlike to reform the House of Lords-(Hear, heir, from the Liberalts)-which he deemed the weakest part t H i r o e n ly . e a o n n d eu L r Learned butne d I a Gentleman m airaid who jest s e at of do t w h n e p l r e i n e - . Mr. NAPIER-Sir, in much that has fallen from the of the cOnstitulifineand the one which 'required the most ttrat he i s f attention.--(Hear.) The power of this House had increased, was increasing. and ought to be diminished- (Hear, hear)- eiples he has advanced ate:strictly. followed out they must, and he teamed tohteengthen the Lords to withstand i.- la the end, lead to universal suffrage -(Hear, hear.) Since (Hear.) He particularly wished to put an :end to voting by I have had the honour of a seat in this House I nave had proavo-(Hear.) Then, again, he thought that no nobleman an opportunity of hearing these questions discussed at great should have hereditary right to the peerage unless ,the h length dwith y aii - an great ability. I have heard them discussed the means of supporting its dignity, .for-there could not be by the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London,and (.greater misfortune in a country then a pauper nobility.- have felt'ahigh delight an 1 in h ' ' .1 peasure caring from him ( - Heat%) At the same time the Crown ought to have the those sountheonstitutienel expositions which have induceu powse nie creating peers for' life, in order to raise to the him to vote against those motions of the Hon. Member 11 Upper House men who were likely to be useful there, Montrose, ane others stensta'ntially inthe - ' )I. same category although they migh t not have the means of transmitting the . with them.-(Hear, hear ) .1 with agree the H. ,n. and income necessary tor the maintenance of the dignity. - Learne ' d Gentlemen in hie strictures on the despotism which Sir P. WOOD - said :if the Chancellor of the Exchequer prevails in some of the countries of the continent. I abhor had sdtpfed the suggestion thrown out by the noble L-rcl 'rich despotism, and also the liceutieusness and anarchy (Lord J ,Ruseell) of availing himself of Thursday nights which have takeu root elsewhere; mid I fully acquiesce for the purposeod carrying on the business of the Govern- in the ,praise he has bestowed ou the British Cone ment - that 'debt would not bare been censumed with this stitution for the admirable mennerdn which it adapts itself discussion. st'a'r which, bewever (if the House were not to to the imperfections oh .mankind. But I think, Sir, there are be engaged upon the supplies) he could scarcely conceive of other modes by which the franchise might be usefully ex. any more important. Now, he contended that they-were 'ended than by so 'essentiel a change iu the principles iti called upon to en er into the discusvitin Icy the declaratunn 'he • onetieution as is. now asked tor.--e Hear, •hear.) The which had been delivered by the Noble Earl (Ear) Derby) in question to be considered is whether the particular mode pro snother place, that the principle of his Goverum nt would posed, of lowering the property qualification, is consistent b e to oppose a -barrier to the Power of demagogues, and with the principles of the Constitution, with the maiote upheld the Monareby agents , the d enocracy. New what did mince of the Monarchy, and with • the maintenance re that the Nettle Lord mean by that? What did he niPart by so• hereititery raok which we find in our House ot Peers.- contrasting the principles of. his Gevernment with those of ( lie r. hear ) I own it is a difficelt ques!ioo to deal eith ; the Government he had succeeded? Had the late Govern- out Ido not agree with the Hon. aid Learned Gentle:nen no at at all ado need demecraey tn a bad settee? I nc a boot : nat after the lon qualification of tile Reform Btll, the people se se it meant insurrection. And there c , rtainly had beet. were ereclud-d taunt acquiring a further trite hise.-(Hear, two feeble at at insurrection in the country during neer.) He says" we ought to have confidence in the people; the late Adininistration one in Ireland under ....r. S. see ought to rely upon their talents, industry, and virtue." O'Brien, and the other in Eegland under-be would net s i en anurecily every man by the exercise of such qualities say whom.-(A laugh.) And both attempts had been pot may not wily acquire a franchise, but may assist in barna,- down, one by the energy' of Led Clarendon, the other by •4-iing our tree and happy (Ittlistitutiare-( Hear, hear.) It the vigilance of the late Home Secretary, sustained by the t h essertect that in our constitution as it steeds there is mire. good sense mid god feeling ,4 4. larg e masses ef (he peeve. e , e-ruption, and that i , muet be got rid of: If it, is to e go, Democracy , was aezagats word, like " protectioe." (Liberal nd ~t, Ido not think it will be by these extravagant. Ina is cheers.) , It might mean total exclusion of the mune,- h . these mete shifts and contrivances of the ballot . b .x, but chical elm rat of-tha Conetitution, or it might mean merely throegh the tnedium of education.- Hear.) Secrecy is not justice to the people., Now on the continent there weie cut) to the En A lish cbaracter.-(Cheers.) A men may two classes 'of governments- °mining ,cases .of military .e dive his vote one way and pretend that he gave it another. occupation, which, he did not cal l g overnments at e n... i , 1 prevent conflict with his landlord, a tenant might avail , fi t rri,el fof the bell i•• Which these' opposing 'principles' were illustrate]. lii one o , but should we hence have a better state of class -in which was developed the high monarchical or des- franchise thing? Again, do you think that. by lowering the potic pi o ve rlin Austria or Russia, for instance, en here. ,,,, 3ou get into purer atmosphere?-(Hear, hear ) ditary seign, invested with an imaginary perfec ion, t-) l i ce , contrary, you multiply the power of those who tam carried on the Government with such small counsel as . per wish the bad passions ot the people • and then, where he chose to call to his assistance , with what was con- is your appeal to , their confidence?-41,3er, hear.) I ceived to be -a fostering and paternal hand, providing can understand a professional calling being a test of ' for the happiness of his people, who had nothing to do proerty, as also (as was thrown out in a previous de with the Goeernment but to obey, and were not allowed bats) , an investment in a savings bank; but in that to think for themeelves, lest they should discover the case it would pot be an abstract question whether there ought to be an extension imposture and...exercise their power-the policy pursuedension of. the franchise or not, be by the Governments of this class being that which was cause the franchise would be acquired by all: those whose expressed in a single sentence once spoken by the Emperor lot in ustry brought it within their grasp.--( Hear, hear.) That Francis-" Ido not want learned men, but good subjects, some limitation is necessary is evident from the question and any little unpleasantness that might arise being sup- frequently asked, whether ladies are to be excluded from the pressed by military ,force. In the other class of Govern- franchise - (A. laugh)-but the main consideration is, should ments,. to which our .own belonged, there was an hereditary we not derange the constitution by introducing a lower. IWO ualification ?- sovereign, with a representative assembly and an upper netty q (Hear, hear.) I am not saying I chamber, composed of persons, from their position, educe- should be averse to an•adjufstment of the constitution; but Lion : , and property, . best suited for that dignity; andthe 1. dosay, that. by. lowering the property qualification you bulk of the people, instead' of being prevented from thinking would ea extend the influence and the power of corruption or acting for themselves, were encouraged and- trained to 1-i r, hear)-and that you could not check that corruption do'so by the municipal and parochial systems on which they by resorting to secret voting.---(Hear, hear)) . I say, let the had to regulate their local affairs; and thus they were eau- 9s ea ereise of d the franchise be open and independent-(Elear, d for the more important duty of choosing those Whe h lassert, linen rated : qualification you do not shOuld represent them in the Legislature. Now, the prim. - .._ , ~... place the intelligence of the country plc of the former of these cl3s'es of governments he consi- • u 1 a him position, but swamp it by.mere numbers -that you tiered the ptinciple of fear; that of the latter econfileuce.- t pheiapotir wield into the hands of designing persons, and permit (Cheers front the Liberals.) And. on the principle of confi- them ield it to the peril of those instittitious and of that monarchy, which 1 - • ' the - peoPle• he advocated the enlargement of the trust will ever be bound up with the • dance in franchise• He believed that it would be found soon by a ll peeee and prosperity of this country.-(Cheers.) nations that . - there - was • •no basis on which Governments • `ll.- In EBUCK said that whilst he, adopted the pre- could rest except- that •of confidence in the peeple.-- mites and _conclusion of the argument of his Hon. and (Hear, hear.)___ Not merely in ,their affections, which learned eoh _ Friend .the ..late Solicitor-General. (Sir. W. P. might be influenced by passions and impulses, but in theie '. 4 Y, _Qt.), L - ..e was altogether at a loss to account for his deter educations-their, power tink tg of hi iv and actin, mination not to vote upon this eueetion, the lion. and political ' Learned G - judging for themselves.and their appreciation of thoseentleinan having admitted that the subject ought and to be t • high moral and intellectual qualifications which.ought to s.. _ ethertainee, and that this was the proper time for con tits man for taking-a pare in the government of the nation. lo 0 _ eright. Twenty seas had . elapsed between the passing Now, did the Noble Lard (Derby) mean to depart from this . the first Refotin 'Bill and the proposel of the second of • ' l or to maintain that it ought not to be extended? the Noble Lord' the' alember for London. At the former princip . e, rt t .• nof aovernuieut- Period the country was governed by an oligarchy- Were we to have that mos mons rous .ort . . i. of be used the ' an oligarchical 'de . cieracy, under which one wheal out , t word as more significant than ar 1' fled inen• alone had votes? Such as, stem would T ocracy-bgt under •the reforming band of the Noble five mil to I want of confidence in the people; and no Go- Lord, that power had undergone a very great change. The show a tota 1 , comm it landed interest ,nt could stand malty months which shun , . . . was no longer the predominant interest vtheerniEnnoeet ta•al error committed by one of the greatest men in this country, for by the , Refcrm Bill of 1832 a who ever held pawer-that in at e grin„ was himself against a re- large portiere of, the manufacturing wealth of. this country f tie representation of the people. Our whole career w v a i s admitted to the representation: But the Noble Lord form o n f piogret , s i aod were we to stand still ere, end • 1- t y found that he had - no , done enough by his first 'hveatlealeoi°le? Tile arll- Memb er I . ''' . SarreY said the sop- Betorin iii,i-t hat it Was nth. OnflUent tai dieplacn an oh. f extension uf the suffrage wete 'obliged to admit Irchy--but . that thee were . thousands in , this country porters it e danger in it and that the only resource was w l osintelligence nod morality-not their lands or the that there wasdisposition ett the 'people. But were peop e power-derived loom . wealth-demended consideration at the in the germ tba' pale of the .Constitution than hand . s of the State. Supposing that to be the opinion of more .i withind u rg it er p oue Netv,, the Ilieteureble Gentlemen's illus the Noble Led, be (Mr. Rudick) would say that %abet Ives would have been m tie vaunted was a body of men who represented, first the intelli wiria.X,n of the starving aeitnale before ' reform or repeal gence, an next the good feeling of the country Did any ap applicable some yeare ego, of the .cern laws, as during the disastrous scarcity of hotly pretend to say that the intelligence of the country was • 1847 when bread, now to be wielded by' those who' possessed land-by those whom the 1817, or more recently m . able Noble Lord had ton ed. Was -sold fa- lid ;and when be was(Russell) had represented as the "clay inte the peoote "It is the hand of Gd, and you mint rest?" It certainly was not land_ that represented the Intel to tell bear it patiently," which he could not have said had tne crn- hgence of the peepie laws not, been repealed. Wit h re g ent n, the ballot, tilt he An Hon MEldnEn —As much as any other portion of the need say was the:, Ilk con.tituents wanted it, and that, he cemmunity.-(Elear, hear.) had voted foe it, and should do so again. It wa3 is Mr.SRUEBUCK con , inuing I am sure this interruption said to those who outlawed the extension of the renreeet,- must. come from a persoit representing land, but I still deny tallies system, .6 Look at France!" tie lied looked at France, that t, te represeutatives of land interpret the ; intelligence of and considered that the lesson to be-derived from tae e.t.a. the citatory.men hem he ( Mr. Roebuck) would en. mities of that country was to avoid the errors which had oe.. franthise were those whwcombined whet was called manual caoned them.. Up to the revoitition of 1786 the Gevern- and intellectual labour-instructed artisees; who, although merite of France ha , been of tbee despotic or pate nal cha possessed neither wealth nor power, fulfilled -all the condi. ratter he had described • the people had no psliocai instruc tion 1 ti ms of paid citizens. It Was these very men who were ex fitting t hem for the functions o' gime nment, or the ex. eluded fom al voise in the gitverntnent of the country. , He ercise in the franchise O the n obility were exempted from t e x- confessed he did not understand the doctrine id abstract anion under which the massee ot the .community were op- right.--(Hear, hearer He'did not know what it meant to pre and there arose at last a tremendous insurrection, see , _hat a man had a right to be represented, but of this ?silica which the boutel Thi 'had 'been in a constind state of cbn- he was ceri air, that, unless the intellectual classes were (ARIA Philippe the principle of conk- repiesented..there could. be no good government. For fusion. Even tin ant- i le had not been acted upon ; the couetry ttie object is good government Those . persons ought to the peop oence in _ t. _ .Paris' by ceders sent down to the ne adopted into the constituency. He Would show the was ruled rum 3 revolution, which bed House they were instructed, they were moral ; and lie prefects. : Under the last portentou , pre • his would then ask who would refuse to recognise their claims? 'he was oing to say • placed the . President, on- g . : . i Be.was talking ot instructed artisans. A man of that universe . throne .there was to be general voting or t' held. class did not live in a 11)1. house; he lived in lodgings. tinffr a ,,,,e ; there had nut been a single public . mee meeting t h c This would be found to be the case in London and the great Conceiveof such a change in this.coontry withitut a• pu i 1 manufacturii g cities. He wanted such a man to be a con meeting to conehler it. ..The fact was, however, the people of rtu n lie did not o ant him to be a constituent because . s 1 e . c. . _ France had not been taught how to exercise political power, the man would agree with Lim.-it was ten to one he would and had never known what it was to bow to a menwity- , h. . net-bat he wanted him 'to be a constituent, first, because he (Hear, h . ' ' , ear)-so that dminority found no better resource was who, by hie honest industry, hadgained lc is own than tak*laughter.) This, a . . mg up 'arias.-( Heir hear and , next, because.he was an instructed man; and, then, W. 19 the e x ' - ' deter ua Iran_ Positieni r i le pointed to in order to. me t o third, because he was a Moral man. , On account of these extending the fra a n in us to do so. IL proved I Why, it was rather a warn- three qualities,: be placed him on a line with any other class e how unsafe it was to attempt to ex- , . and he said such a man as he had described dude large classes of the c inutry • And la ' ' such a course wag at v i LT ple from the representation. was as worthy to be a constituent as ,any Hon. Member in Constitution. 'The Relat;inne(l 3 ripti, and likely to destroy, our that House was to be a 41ember. Where was the man to tell - Constitution. the Constitution, and had it heal removed gross abuses h , he Wall noq-e(llear, neer.) Was be to be told by the had it not done- so some of improved its machinery; and_ Lim ssor of thousands of acres that they who made alt that would have been '. awept away by a most ancient landmarks Passe a i s hes England' from every other country in the was said " All is now quiet and calm.Pehtar convulsion. It. ' distie-e they were not to be deemed worthy of sending a lion of the representation?" Why ; because raise ii the quese world, that . Ve townst House? Representatives of lend were the proper period ta do so; and at no other time e at wa s j u st representeta h t not land - to, be found in other coun it be demanded so safely considered. It was a fatal error to withh7l n dte l i demanded -but of wealth were admitted, but was eancipation, until the Government which coneeth, th d .olic tries? Re found eE in , other countries? But that , which was bad to confess that they . did so from fear of the con it . not wealth . , , _ her country in the world except. se- not to be found la any o. ces of longer refusing it; and such would have - America-thatbody f a trained to eedure labels, one quen - ome mischief iu their hands, `been the result Of a longer refusal of reform. The Coustitu- client to the law with all the power of tine ought. to be allowed to go. o t n, and expand, and develops and yet obe •ing law ineplicitly-were they to be excluded? itself: wherever there was lfe there must be progress. It was those 3 persons he i - low pined before that house; he. desire had recently saidthey did not constant thlt d H glit not to be repr se Some persons a e oa. Members whether they ou s result of the action changes. But change was the natural __ had a living principle in a' state. What changes occurred country from all countries, by the present law -by no inten- • within the last twelitY Years-in everything except the re- tion on the part of the Legis(ature, or on the part of those presentative system! The commerce of th d country had who enemosed the law-but by •accident-thie class was been inordinately developed-(lear, hear),- . -an so had ma- excluded from the rePresentation of the country, and,he was i nufactureS.-(1-leare)- ,Whole towns had risen up; and to , rebtegoatig ; too Inc be asking - thellouse •to'bring theta within 1 re urne epresenta oes to that one of the-e Birk-ahead), which had not been in existence I the roll of those 'who •t d R brit;, at the time of the Reform Bill,. inwas propesed tey the lite House. .He had heard a great talk of .demeracy, and Goverunmet to-extend the franchise, of .which St. Alban'a the dangers of democracy. .He had heard the ,Noble was to be depriied.. Railways,•again, had everywhere given Lord'e(Lord John Russell) answer the oth •ni ht to the rise to new towns along their lines. 'And it was not ouly in statetnent made by the Noble Lord at the er g __ ' b ' head ot the tio mat material development ;that changes had occurred, but moral veratnent: that answer had not quite satisfied him. and intellectual eelacaeich had greatly advaececl; and the Da ,cremes, as he t biro understood the ' National Society, wnish some years age.. lied only . 400,000 ectruvalent, if he might use the Letin phrese t n t p eun' . was scholahs, now had upwards of 1,00000. The increase of oPposeil to . plebs' He did not want pl,bs to ' •v o - a- dug he as savings banks and mechanics' iesntutea led to the same cone . did not want aristocracy he did.not want an yee7tirnon as 1 elusion. Why,. then, was everything to pi og , ess except the people to govsra ehe wanted : the populus, which a e cr t e l d e representative sYstem? ' Atathe time of the Chartist attempt more to our word" nation"-he wanted the nation to n r t i be knew a body of workmeri engaged ;about that House, itself.-- e ( Beer, hear.) As for the Noble Lord at the he e ti v d er i f although they had.-promised to defend it, had declined to the Governnient Comte-2 . tOrward and saying he was ' • oppos-d he sworn, not choosing, as they ssid, to act against their to Democracy, what die lie mean? Did he mean that i'l this " order" --an ominous and remarkable expression. And count 9'' the artisans had what were called COnnounist pr* what made them an "order?" Orde , exclusion front the ciples? Not . at ,laall.-(Har he .r.) The naoment a - m i e n ; franchise•-( Hear, hear.) Give th m the franchise, nd they gained an by his own b, he might be depended would be transfused nito the rest of the community. The upon to defend the sacredness of property might hear)-he. Hoe. Member for Surrey had derided the 10/. er n/• qualie would be rue man to come forward and say, "This is mine fibatioos for voting, as having rio principle in them The it is the result of my own honest labour and of my own intel principle, however, -was , not in the exact sum chosen. but lest.(Henr, hear ) You will find no thimmunist p in the ehoOsing of any = sum as a test ; and the 40s. free-. plea received among the artisene of this country.-(Llear, hold test was almost as old as Parliament itself. At the , hear.) As for the ignorant and benighted labourers of the same time. he should have .ne 9h.lectitm to some of the 1 agricultural claseee, he (Mx. Roebuck) did not knew what ever tion, he (uir J. Via , t.isle) ) recainitten oho to teke into his serious consideration that part of Parliamentary ro • form which he had left out of his Bill—a part which, in his (Sir J. Waltnslev's) opinion, was most important, as any measure that did not include the protection of the ballot Would, as far as he could judge. be lightly esteemed by the People of this country. His first objection to the meastve of the- Noble Lord was founSed on the.disparny between the borough and the county franchise. No goood reason had been alleged, nor did he think that any could be alleged, why the franchise should be 51 in a borough and .201. in a county,sand unless Hen. Gentlemen. were (imposed to admit that the inhabitants of rural districts were less qua lified tor the exercise of political rightsthan those of boroughs, he did trust that they would press torward for an equal mea sure of justice for the agricultural as for the manufacturing districts. The proposition to enfranchise by means or the 403. direct taxation appeared to him to be a step in the right direction, inasmuch as it recognised taxati ,n to 5e the basis of representation— ( Heer, hear)—and he trusted that that principle would be further carried out. But he could not look upon another , ertion of the Bill with the same favour able view. He conceived that the retention of the rate paying claws for the qualification of the voter was ‘n un mitigated evil, and he thought that the Ho ise would allow that such a measure as the ratepaying clause had been a fruitful BOUM° of litigation, chicanery. and fraud, and that it had been an unnecessary restriction to the right of voting-(Hear, hear.) It might not be necessary to increase the number of Members for large towns, but he could not conceive how the Noble Lord could. justify the retention of two Members to a small and insignificant borough, while he refused a Memher to large, populous, arid important districts. Another feature of that Bill to which he ( Sir J. Walmsley) objected was, that -it did not remove nominati el boroughs, which were a , crying evil.—( Bear, bear.) In his opinion, the interes of agriculture, commerce, and manufactures we-e i entical, and d upon this broad view of t he q uestion aught the electoral power to be based. He had reterrsd on a former occa-ion to the numerous demands which had been made by the people at various periods for enfranchsement. and he ha of t d pointedend cut cut the acknowledged loyalty and intelligence e franchised claeses as evidences of their fitness for the exercise sof political rights. He had also adverted to the patience and forbearance which had been shown by the people under what he conceived to be very unnecessary and unjust treatment, and subsequent thought had convinced him that reason united with justice in demanding a recon _ struction of the electoral system. So far from perceiving any cause for apprehension in extending the. basis of the representation, he was persuaded that that was the only. course by which they could remove the existing causes of discontent, and the only means by which any Government could ever obtain the 11111 confidence of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Twenty years had elapsed since the Reform Bill • WiLa iptroduced , and, w ith all its defects, there cou ld beyno _ u WA. ,U 0 remove d many flagrant abuses. While , however, ha fully acknowledged the benefits of that Bill, he could not shut his eyes to its defects. The evils of the nomination boroughs were only very partially removed. It was true that fifty-six rotten boroughs were placed in Schedule A, but nearly an equal number were retained as a sop to the oligarchical party; sued, altogether the Reform Bill of 1833 Was one of the most aristocratic measures offered to the nation. The effects of the Chandos clause, in involving the occupiers of the soil in a political serfdom, d e af re alone, old. . There were 850,060 houses iu England an als a ',arise occupants, although assessed . at between 101, and 501. annual value, were totally excluded from any share in the representation. Surely, then, they might fault' ask for a revision of the system which twenty years' experience had shown to be so ineffective populationclared .object. Within the last twenty years the lof the country bad considerably increased, its commerce had ex panded, popular intelligence had been more widely diffused, and our national literature had progressed. But, in broad , contrast with all this, there had been no advance and no improvement in our representative institutions Five-sixths of the adult male population of these realms continued to be, excluded from all voicfeither in ti analog the laws they had to obey or in the di s tribution of the funds of which they up had to contribute so large a proportion. A paper oe the table of the House two sessions ago, stating the number of electors in the United Kingdom to be 1,050,157 ; beingl in 30 of the population, or lin . of the adult males. That gave an average of 1,60 1 ) vo' es to each of the 656 Mem bers of that House—he said votes rather th anotes electunors, because many e lectors had a plurality of v der different qualifications, and it was supposed that the total number of electors did uot excet d three-quarters of a million. Thus upwards ot six millions of the adult mile population by the existing system were kept without the pile of the Constitution ; and there was a grievous and unjust Monopoly of electoral power in the exclusive hands of a comparatively small minority of the nation He had said that the total number of the electo s would give an aver age of l,eoo to each member of that Heine ; but the real fact was that 3 22 Members, or a clear rnijority, only represented 430 electors each, whilst the minority re presented 2,729 electors each. • Caine with 153 electors had the same power as Stockport' with 2,400 ; and Man chester with 12,000 electors; or Marylebone with 18,0 0, had no more weight in that House than Thetford with 210 electors, or Knaresborough with 230. Tbnfluence ese facts suffi e - ciently demonstrated the way in which the i of th larger boroughs could be neutralise marshallin that g the power of the smaller ones against them d by . He had said our representative system had made no advance, but he believed it had actually retrograded; 184 of our constituen • ties had a less number of electors now than they had at former periods. If be were told that the gross number of electors had increased, he would reply that the increase had taken place in counties where extraordinary exertions had been made for special objects, and in the boroughs which were included in those counties; and that the register for the English counties showed a decrease of 13,600 electors in the year 1849-50, as compared with the numbers in 146-7 on It was said that electoral p ower ought not to be based mere numbers; but in truth at present it was neither based on numbers nor on property, nor on numbers and property • combined and indeed he co uld not tell upon what it was -- based. The statistics given by Mr. Alexander Mackay, in his pamphlet on Parliamentary Reform, and which he had never heard controverted, showed that in the year 1841 the total amount of the poor-rate assessment of the country was 85 millions; and of that sum be steted that 7 millions were represented in that House by 329 Members, and the remain ing 78 millions by 329 Members. What was the practical tendency of such a system? To render that House subser vient to the territorial aristocracy, and, instead •of a real representation of the people, to make- it a representation of the peerage, the army, the navy, the Church, and the Cos 'vernment. The taxation o f the countr y was levied unequally, and tended to restrict the expansion of trade and commerce. Wherever a barren rock was to be found among our colonial possessions, a governor, lieutenant-governor, and a costly staff of useless officials were saddled upon the public purse; pensions and sinecures were distributed with an unsparing hand; and a system of Church patronage was administered, as injurious, he believed, to religion as it was offensive to the consciences of a large portion of the people. To remedy these evils—moral, political, and financial—his Honourable Friend (litr. Hume) had brought forward this measure of Parliamentary Reform ; and, believing it to be safe, practi cable, and constitutional, he should give the motion his humble but earnest support. There might be those who ap prehended dangers and difficulties from a measure which Sought to add five or six millions of the adult male popula tion to the electoral registry of the United Kingdom ; b it e for his part-he saw no such dangers, . nor apprehended any such difficulties. There was indeed a danger; but it arose from a very different source—from the refusal to do justice to men who not only knew their rights. but knew their Power to enforce them The present motion only aimed at correcting abuses whicb time and a vicious system had pro , dueed ; and the present period of comparative pros- Parity and domestic tranquillity appeared to him eminently calculated for the calm consideration and settlement of this important question. The only sounds .that they now heard of the i• justice un der which the pa ple laboured, or believed they laboured, were those of calm re monstrance and enlightened reason; but none might venture to predict how long such a tweet able state • f thicgs might continue. The burdens which tee people now bore might soon become insupportable; the evils that they new endured might ere long assume en aspect which might drive the mass e s to desperation, and they might approach that House in a t em pe r which all must deprecate but none would be able to resist. 'Sh ou ld such a time ever arise— which he pray the wisdom, of that Howe to avert —then they would see when too lets the political folly o f treating with contumely the just demand - o f millions of their fellow -subjects. By timely concession t o t h at just demand they would strengthen th e guarantees for p u bli c order and popular content, because the taxes would then be imp os d and the law s made with t h e co ncurrence and c , o;leutof Mr. H. DRU mmO ND said the excuse u r g ed by the two Hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him for bringing fie ward the present question was that the country was in a state of comparative tranquillity. Hon. Gentlemen were anxious to send the Members o( that House b:ck to their constituents, and yet they occupied a whole nigut in diacussin a measure which could not possibly be passed, N o g . less than six gentles men had brought forward measures for imPeeving toe repre sentation, but he trusted, coming hi that shape, the Gosen repudiatecom i t. committed tr it would not fall into the. rror that had been , differed from all others that ke• its predecessors. but that they would at cted ; but The present measure eo n con tained no principle.. The Noble Lord in •his Bill c the light of voting with a beneficial interest of 10/. there WAS no more connexion between th e right of v o ti ng and 10e than there was between the right of_ votin g and 91. was .atr.getsvheirthabirseugrda,dathed t t h h e e e in x e , a r: . 193. 6d. The system sure contained no real pencip he l ai d this down_ sei - a rule, s Lisa of the elective franchise , ' das the only essential rule, that the exercise an of the f ra nchise should be co-exten sive with di e. rect service to the State. He wou ld include all those classes whose pockets the Chancellor of the Exchequer could r each, all those whom the rate-collector called upon— ' and he would go further and say where a man was too poor to tempt the rateecollector or the Chancellor of. the Exche .• quer, if he had rendered serv i c e to the state—as, for instance, a soldier after his discharge , o r a militia-man, he should sa y Hear. ) he waaentitled to exercise ,the rig ht of voting. ( One point had had an adventitious "importance conferred upon it, although it had r eall y nothin g to do with the clues . tion—he meant the bal'o t. What could it possibly signify ' to them how the electors voted, whether secretly or openly, whether standing upon one leg, or upon both ?—(A laugh.) It seemed to him that that was a question that might be fairly left to the constituents. He had himself special rea sons for preferring the vote by ballot, but he. would not now enter upon that question. But they must bear in s mind that when they, added to the electois, as was pro- Posed by the present m easure, they did not add a similar to a similar thing. It was' not the mere addi ion of electors ' of the same kind, but electors of a very different kind. He would give an illustration of . what he lie meanft. be : would take the case of the savielgs banks.found by a return which hi held in his hand that out of 1,000,00,1 ' contributors in the savings banks there were only 2.000 who possessed 2001. and upwards, while there were no less than 677,000 who possessed less than 201. Let them take that as • a guide or an illustration. In p oint of fact, who they had extended the franchise as far as they proposed they would represent the poverty of the country, and the wealth would not be fairly represented, bat actually overborne. Ile had heard other Hon. Members talk of education as the basis of representetion, but .he could not sea any connexion be tween reading, writing, and arithmetic, and the ebctive franchise. Tice argument, however, showed that they had • considered the danger of extending the franchise, and try ing, by indirect means, to correct the evil. Sluch of had been • said of the good old times and of the precticethe Con .. stitution--the practice of that House formerly certa wag m that no • one should sit in it unks s he possessed a aount in land. Land was formerly the only means of possessing property—trade ben g confined to the Jews, and after wards to the Lombardi and the Fleming& Now, however, things were totally changed—the essential' was property, the accident was lawn When. the Honour. able Gentleman brought forward a measure to do away with the property qttalification one of his arguer me Was that that House did not regard the sanctity of their oaths. Thatwas, he thought , a bad syetem.— ( Hear, hear.) They encouraged the violation of oaths —they encouraged juries to break their oaths, and to find men not guilty be- CAW they disapproved of their offeucee being visited with such as had been appoi , :teci in the ces, St. A ba,t , eloction. If they had .a standing .Commission he thought they would soon find out .what Geutlemen were without the,' necessary property qualification. Let there. be. .a go , :d Chancery lawyer and a good common-law lawyer ol the Cominission; and he was bound to 'pay that would make the Gawniscion effective. If they ha& not that eqaality of ~pro- • pory !hey would have eqirdity of power, rim; that vra3 as good. Where there were two animas. one of whom had got something ,whieh the tither had not, they might deriend upon it there would be a battle.—(A laugh.) If here werertwo., men, the one rich and.the other poor, unless the rich man bad something to defend him which the.other hid not, there would be free trade between them prettyquickly —(A laugh.) They must combine property and power together, for ctci- Heal socie y was, constituted on . the principle of . preserg : acquired property. What they were to provide against was not peaceable times. A ship w,is worth nothing that cod d nolv sa Ihe 11, water: They mu-it have a 001,511. tutiou that would stand the storms. always hart been, and there ever would be, 'times when mas,e4' of starving people Were to-he found, and tbey might depend on it the severeSt 'moral •anguish any man could endure was seeing his children starving and himself willim; to work and unable to oboaie it. They_ might rest assured that toe suffe , ings of would not be les kern if inflicted by a constitutional goveroinent t an .hy a Floreni hie desp it. The interests of the - latided and the other classes were arnat• gamating every day. For his part he desired to see the great estates and properties Stihilivided, and the number of small proprietbrs increased There was inherent in the nature of things something mote permanent in land then in manufactures , - Take the ease of a labourer—no m tter whether he earned five . shillings or five guineas a week, h had no regard for - anything beyond the ena of the week —he eat and he , drank the whole of it, .and there was. an end of the matter.—(Laughter.) The manufacturers only looked to. their temporary profit ; but landed proprietors tooked to the permanent val.,e of their property, and were con inuelly laying out something to make that value 'greater—( Hear, hear, and " Oh" from th , OppOsition ) —'though - no dbubt'thei e were exceptions --( Hee, and a laugh, from the Opposition.) There was, at all events, this advantage attached to the system of rotten' boroughs, that they facilitated the return of persons to that House when it was 'advantageous to have them.—(Bear, hear.) The Noble Lord lately at the head of the Government had recently been reproached with the basis ,of his Administra tion, and with some truth. But until Hon. Members had to form a Goverianient they would not know 'the difficulty of doing so, for it was not enough to find the best man for an office, but whether some "enlightened" constituency did tot prefer some empty chatterer. (Hear, and a laugh.) He howti:ver did not want them to recur to the •' rotten borough" system, but to suggest that if Ministers, as the servants of the public, were expected to come ex officio to they might receive, for fhv o - vccre not educated—their edu „,,, .1- , •-•'• tof facturing Lewes, you would find the artisan, who was the , maeefacturer and artisan of his own fortune, would be the ! first to oppose himself to anything like Communist doc trins—(tlear)—ar.d if a man could be depended upon he l could, for the maiatenance of what was called the sacred ness of property.--. Ilear, hear.) Then, where was the objeetio.l to this man? What were the uppesers of the mo tion atreiel Hear, hear) .'There . might he a, sort of personal antipathy to coming in near contact w lh men evno had not hitherto had power; but when we came fairly to eiscu- , s what Was wanted in a constituent Lindy, what was there in the proposal that should , excite Menu? '1 tie real proposition was—as for. the ballot and the other points, they were as dust in the balance as compared to this— that " every man of full age and not iubjec . . to any mentel or legal disability" (but it did not rest there, or it would he,unirersel euffrege), "who shall have been the .resident occupier of a house or ~pert of a house fie- twelve months, and rated le the poor of that parish for, that tim..' ehould be registered as an elector. If it ceuld be wade out that the coeetituency proposed .could, lead to ; mischief, ihere wont' be on end of toe case ; but w hat was there in this to excite alarm ? True, there was a vagibond popu lation in every great coinumenY and labourers who were Ovine, by their labour Item. day to day', and. . /fl eeing about; but they were not iriclueetl, in this prupeei time Where was the danger of giving a vote totole reeideet ioepayer ?—( Ideate : hear.) It would be said, e Oh, but he I must Itaire ali 1. house." The Noble Lord' , (Lord J. Rue- sell's) Reform Bill brought it down. to 5i.; there were very few houees under 5/. His. (Mr. R ,ebueles) term labourere, i • at Os a week, paid 51. a year. by ebould not Si. houee eolders vote? Then, in London amid various towns there were lodgers, and among them there were the most .educaed and intelligent men; why sbou d not they be admitted? What was wanted was not only 'to give an ample represen tation to this country, but at the •same • time n t to excite any jealousy or to deeenyiejostice. _ Now among the intel ,igent artisan- you would find a strong feeling against the peculiar mark which the Legislature thought fit to consii tute a title to. vote. There were thousande—he • was going to say millions—of persons, who, being lodgers, were tie eluded from 'the franchise; but there was not a parish in which you. would not find persons living as lodgers with men who were entitled to vote, and who were of a higher degree of mind and morality and everything else than their landlords.—(Hea-.) He would not go now into the question of the ballot. die .was surprised to hear the Attorney-Ge neral for Ireland (Mr. Napier) propound the exploded fal lacy that the ballot was un•Eeglish. *On-English! Why, did the Right lion. GenCeman ever vote by, ballot at his club I If a Member were proposed for admission who from some social peculiarity was a bore, and whom the Right lion. Gentleman wished to exclude from his club, he would vote in such a case by ballot; and yet he would not allow the same privilege to a man .who was called upon to vote for a Member of ; Parliament, and who, while under the adened....f. a, person who dealt with. him. or of a powerno e,-1-an neigtioour, imps - wean to nave an nide. 1 pendent opinion.—( Hear, hear.) Then the Right lion. Gentleman foisted upon us the wretched argument that the ballot was un-English. He (Mr. Roebuck) thought we h,d done with all that long ago. He would be bound the Right Hon. Gentleman had voted by ballot in his club, and, if so, ,t he begged him to reflect a little, and ask himself achy he had done so, and why he did not say to uimself, won't vote in this un-English way; I don't like it; it is not bold and open enough for me. I must tell Mr. A, whom I think a • bare, that I shan't vote for him, that I shall exclude him from my club; and I won't submit to the degradation of 'secret voting - any longer." -(A laugh.) But the Right :Hon. Gentleman wanted the influence over the electors which open voting gave. If not, let bun say so, and then he (51r. Roebuck) would acknowledge the argument and grapple with it; but don't Jet him deal with the question by a sham. or tell the House about the ballot being un-Engiish. Take a case. He (Mr. Roebuck) was a landlord, and he had en influence over his tenant Now, what was that in fluence? Was it one proceeding from respect? Was it the influence of a highly • instructed over a less instructed mind? No; it was the mere influence of a dominant will over the will of another man. The landlord did not in such a case come to the tenant, and say, " I think you will find that Mr. So- an t-So is not a good representative, because of his opinions," but he seat his agent, who had this message - Tell the tenant that this is me will - if he does not vote as I plea , e he must take the consequence." The Right lion. Gentian n must believe ore of two things—either he neus with to retaiu, by means of open voting, the sort of influence lust d• scribed, or he must suppose that the el: etor ould become detnoralise . by voting in a manner contrary to his expressed intention New this, he suppeed, was e hat was ineeet by un•Eoglise ; the tenant, it was feared, wont promise his landlord one thing, and do another. But wby iid the landlord ask him at all?—(Hear, he ,r.) N bode raked the Right Hoe. Gentleman how he was going to vole at his club, because, in the ti,st place, it was consideren that no one had a right to put such a question, arid becaus in the neat place, the Bight Honourable Gentleman would not answer the question ii it wale put. Take the case of a voter ia a ceuuty. A M-tuber was put up. Suppose h , sees the teuaut, acid the Bight Honourable Gentleman tile landlord, than whom nobody could be more oppesed in poli Lies. Give him the ballot and, he.voied as he liked lit voted against the Member proposed by his Right Hon. Friend ; but take away the ballot, end let him stand exposed to all tne influences which the landlord neild bring to bear, and what was he expected to do? Why, to sacrifice any itidependent feeling ot his own tuind. This it was which -.vas un-English—(bear)—that he should be coerced avains , his will, and compelled to vote against his conscience. As to the Bill of his Hon. Friend the al,ember for Montrose (Mr. ti me), when he recollected that there were small bo roughs, of which he could find a dozen—he might say 50— 'that should hardly have the population of one borough, which were yet net better represented than they, he en tirely agreed with the greeter part .of his . Hon. Friend's propositien. The mind, however, could not help recurring to the lest propo-al for retorm made by 'the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London (Lord J Russell), :and cer minty, of all the mischievous proposals that were ever pro pounded to this House, that which proposed to combine, various small boroughs into one in order that - they should have a voice in this House, thus conducing in every way to immorality and to the improper representation of this country, as the Noble Lord's measure did, was the most mis chievous —(Hear, hear.) What would be the immediate. consequences of it? Why, that every so-called borough would be made proportionate to a small county. You would have in it an electioneering attorney, •a committee, and a canvassing body; and, if the combined boroughs were five, in number, you would haVe five attorneys, five committees, - -" five canvassing bodies,-and five separate estab lishments alto- _ ,gether. That woulde five centres of corruption, of ex pense, and of uneEnglish coercion.—(Hear hear.) Any attempt to unite into one eection the small boroughs of this cometi y, resuscitating that system by destroying which the Noble Lord attained his great renown, was the most mis chievous attempt he had ever heard of. Without going quite so far as his Hon. Friend did in his last proposition, in _ tae proposed proportioning of the representation to property, he would be quite satisfied with a large extension of the constituency of this country, with the ballot as a protection. At present he wanted to know front the Government whe ther they would bring upon the Foii ical stage that portion. of the population for whom he - found it their individual ca pacities they were always expressing the most extraordi nary consern.—(Elear.) lie did not see how those persons were to be excluded from tat representation for any length of time, and he ventured to prophet,' certainly not many yenrs i wou ld not elap that many months. se before some Mi nister of the Crpwn, more prescient thin the rest of his col leagues, would perceive that the peace of this country would be best secured by giving to the intelligent artisans a voice in this House; and that we should find those artisans re presented here by some new Reform Bill, brought in either by the Noble Lord the Meimber for the city ot London, or by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, with, no doubt, the view not only fairly to Secure his own position, but also to give to the constitution that security which could only be given if the intelligence and morality of this country were equitably represented.— (Hear, Divide.) The C dANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER- - Alt ho ug h the subject does not appear to be so interestiug to the House as one might have p itri O g p it o le ,t d —(Ministerial cheers) — I can cot allow the present -unity to p as s without trespass moments for a few moente upon its attention. Aid, Sir. I shall en eavour to do that which, so tar as I have been enabled to observe, has not yet been pursued by ary gentleman wle has preceded me not even by the Hon. Member who brought torward this resolution—for I will keep to the motion Meer , the House.—(Hear, hear.) We h a ve had from the Hen. and Learned Gentleman who h as j u st addre%seit you one o those dissertations which nu one can make more interestito than he can en subjects of a Very abstract cher icier ; and w , have had several speeches from other gentlemenecertattil) on the subject of Parliamentary reform. But, it appeared to me that those speeches w ere m a u l .) , addressed, not to the motion upon the paper, but rather to that still more elaborat. though evanescent proposition, which for a mometet excite,: eo much iti , erect, but which,' with a due regard for the oblt Lord the Member for the city of London (Lord J . , Russell), I think Hon. Members opp os ite s hould have bad the delicacy not to allude to. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Among those who have addressed the House is the Hot, and Learned Gentleman the Member for the city 111 Oxford (Sir W. Page Wood), who delivered himself of a very elaborate speech, which was evidently prepared to eup • Port a Mii.is erial prep site ‘n—(Cheers and laughter) - and one co sequence of the train of his argument, and one con clusion at which he scented inevit ably to arrive, was, with singular inconsid euey, the determination not to: vote at al in favour ot a proposition which for three successive year he hall supported.—(c' Hear," and a laugh.) :Now, Sir. when I look et the motion befOre' the House, I see few propositions - contained in it. With a view to place them succinctly haute the House, I will j us t reca pitulate them- We have a proposition to bring in a Intl which, is to extend the franchise, which is to insure that that franchise, when i' is exercised, should be taken by means of . the ballot, which is to secure a triennial election of Parliaments, and which is to change materially the proportion of repreientatives, so that they shall be made more consistent with the amount of population and property, This was the fourth proposi tion laid down for our adoption: - I understand from the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion (Sir. J. Walmsley ) that the proportion of: representatives which would be deemed • more consistent with the amount of population and of property is, to use the lenguseee Orthat Hon. Gentleman, a redistribution which will diminish what he calls the territorial influence.—(Hear.) I am glad 1 am stating fairly the qnestion before our consideration; and I will - now venture to make a few observations upon this fourth proposition, becnnse it is a more novel topic, and one exciting perhaps the most interest. Well,. I deny the positidn which Is assumed by Hon. Gentle- men opposite I upon that point. — (Hear, hear.) I 'deny that the proportion of representatives is unfairly arranged in fairour of that territorial interest.—(Eiear, hear.) I deny all the positions assumed in that pamphlet which has been lately circulated and submitted to ,Parliamentary Criticism. The Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion referred to some observations I made on a preceding night, when we were frequently told that it was . a monstrous ano maly that a large town should, return only- two Alembers, and that a small and almost depopulated borougli should be repreSented by the same number of Members. t reminded the Rouse on that occasion of the tact that Chem were. agricultural , or , if the. Hon. Gentlem an pre f ers th e word, territorial C o nstituences, vF)3 ith n experienced the sae injus tice, if it be an injustice,, i n regard to that distribution of the representation which Hen. Gentlemen impugn, sold which 'their imp egn because of , peculiar interest an towns. the , " I . put th eir e casefairly. The case _instanced __(Hear,__(Hear,ear, on na previous night ,was one which, as it willref ,ai refer to again, thou g h I have others t o which I am d is py a brief w one, I very es.r , s of calling the attention of th e House Mind, I am giVing no opinion now u p o n the particular .circumstances before us;. I am 'confining y , lf entirely to t he endeavour of laying th e case fairly beforethe is so sa. Yon say that the proportion of representativesarrange the present .systern that the town by population are not fairly represented in our con stitntion and-in this House. I deny the accu racy of the statement. give no opinion upon the expedic incy of any preponderance being g iven to co untry-or to town, i n the_Le gislatUre but confine myse.f now to mere statem en ts of. fact. Let me'Call t he a tension of the House to the case of North Cheshire—alear)---sod I invite Hon. Members, while I (19 59, to WO/ in mind the most advantageolo instances or four hours have so severely criticised the withdrawn which have been brought before our notice on the other side 1 versal suffragi-without which, as far as political justice ! from that unfriendly e. (War.) - a Why theyshould for ° p t. ! . t t e l t i t r : ' , tli ,re il e "l a - te tom of b trl r euc i b n esr ;Da T!W‘fordp. mind, .for _ examtOe, if _trey is concerned, Ido net ace how , in ~;.i. Lec,u ~ It N uu ii ,v , , u4ii.,t, 4 3 , 0 , u can establish the Lallot, _three, Cho hire we have enly two towns ot great manufacturing von commit a greater iejastice L* 1.1 3 /0 a li' f ai" CUnStita'aSY' —I . will . 110 i: imy the a'oandoriel - prepoaition of the late he unenfranehised Minister, Ido not pretend to undermand. Sitting on ,the importance-Macclesfield' and Stockport. The total popu- I Classes; * but if you have ,universal n suffrage you come to esathe side of the house, meeting under the same roof lation of the county is 249,000; the total population of the 1 a new constitution-(Heart-you Heart- ,• , eou have, iii feet, the mom- 1 (Cheers)-corabinirig and counci ling together for the same two towns I have just ea tiled is 92,000. There rein ;ins, ! reiguty of the people, obi& is the • • Mich principle of the • i ote ere -Meer bear -I should t have t. o .ght that all these therefore, as the difference hetweeu the two, 1e6,000. BIM, can eonstitution, no often rereered to and i Amen- ' '-' ' ‘' t ' * ) pauegyrieed ee ; cootie would have prevented the slightest allu.sien to while the two towns, with a population of 92,0e0, return , this House. But' the sovereignty of the People people is not the i the su ject p ated thee tlaey would have byoueht forward their four Members to Parliament, the rural constituency, with. ! constitution of En gland That constitution 156,000, ref , urn only too Members.. - Take the cote of South . modified. but it is still the sovereignty of Oa - et is mitigated t oe a - osmon mithent obtruding them refitcoons on the e d 1 oen mop t „ ~ ~; ice m e u tctoria - tre:sr . o r 1 the Noble Lord, with regard to which we, oa Cheshire, in which there is only one town, that of Chester. , (Cmate. - -s.) "But," saps my Then. Friend, T• e nopulation of the county is 200,000,• -and the populetiun ' ballot ; we will 110 longer hme tine spun arguments nst h e ave the this aide, have always shown the most respectful silence.- of - the town' of Chester 23,000, leaving 178;0e° of the popu- it. We must terminate bribery and corruption.' N g o, inst I (Hen-, hear, and a laugh.) I should have thought that v I gentlemen opposite would have considered the privilege they lation of that county who • are net represented except beg his attention to a paragraph which 'comes from an ' enjoy in having . a high constitutional statesman on the one by the county Members.' The' town of .Chester, with thither that he will respect, because it is a Transatlantic its population of 28,' 00, returns two Members ti authority, and proceeds from a country where the people en- ,hand, and the privile e e they have on the other of bringing OM, ,House, while the rural constituency, of 178,000 - joy universal suffrage and vote by ballot. Now, this is the forward revolutionary recommendations end plans, and that returns the same numberom(CLeert.) I will take the case way in which the Governor of New York on the last occa- they would not have deemed it their duty to enter, during of. South Derbyshire, where there ie only one . censiderable sion addressed tkic. I t egisl mire or that intelligent stet... whole evening, into a criticism of the late Government toraaure,-( Hear and laughter.) We had some alio town, The popotation of Smith Dm-tomire it i MORO, and This woes a "(locum ,nt tt hick. tioubtlete, th y would treat with 1 ''`":s in ide fe a decker Memel the snedict of reform from the that of the tem) , oi e' by 40.1m0 leaving 115, +•0, of the the greatest cumin-ere , ion. for it ems attended with all the rural p_ohuhatieno That Impute! ion .1 40 OW returns two circumstances which excited their respect and admiration. i i n t i r u e s i j e o lit }yeti et the Government ; but I protest against con hlembers,•'and tae rural poeulation of 125.000 returns the Atomics, New York, the ba let-exactly what the H. pa ,e elusions toawit from mere enommetre .petaimaphs in news same nummr. I will now tykee North Dereetn. It t eem !eine rile ter Slieffield wiinted-oilogovernment ; and here; is i dot root consider must my for mytelf and my eelleagues that ere the import mit Miens of Darharri, Gi• esOsal, S ;u•li Shields, the ra inner in which the chief of the veltagoverneft addressed 1 mans with i g -ea t er an extension of the treechise to be sytiony. and Suoiteriand. 'rue eitir e pepultti in et North Dart:rem is the Legieleture of no lees e. state than New York, when heat.) niat tie emtensioa cf democretic powen-o dear, 272,00, including-both the tewit populetion and, the court- it tea assembled,-" The. alarming increase of bribery at ' has Co much moon vaunted R e form Bill, waich no one try populaden ; and this is an interesti g f iet,• that while popular elections deemed= your ee; ious attention "-.-( Cheers for Montle se --:1 1 41e4 with- prehe ai the Hon. Member the pop ;laden of the towns is exactly the same as the tied teughter.) This is at New Yerk, re, select, where the but' for the e • 4t would that Bill have been, I ask, county popul .ti.,n, yet the impute' ion of the great commer- ballot is in force, -( timers ) The heal of the-State declares When I 8 am told that he (Lent plot and energy of a Stetley ?-(Chters.) ciai towns I have named are repre onr . . , e ed by six Membere, that bribery is increasing to an alarmieg extent, and de- form, I cermet hut Derby) is opposed to ail re _ remember— .while t the purely agricultural eoputAtion i of 136,090--,the - mania the serious atteminn of the Le-(Heer.) bas mlecee , lednie in the PArr,, Arid the Nub Lord who other Orioiety of Niirth whom are only represented by I will quote some further ext=atte - fieni lee eatne letter it-that it was that L . nteete seat lon ia ce held kaimis tive Members. - (Cteers.') I migh sitl pursue this. I will t orn which I have read thispassage. ' I will notion whichadded Lofty iclual who pri p esed a motion men• one-ninth to th:: c ,, risr , 1- i . Brits.::. take tee important - coun te "of li , itt. Ww Kertt has a the name of the writer, t t .l, ueecy of Great . feceuse am about to quote enly -(Heer, hear.) I repueiate popul ition of 400.000. It- contains four gteat towns- f ,cri Li , to' •• He* ei t,of t • House,m s 1 . i I - the amertion of the Hon: , e pooffne. was once a -.comer tots et t einae am. _es friends, that •w - Chatham: Greenwieh, Maidstone, and Rochester, one of told has filled important situations in the serviu of his Satre- all reform unless we listen Lie i; .e are a party opposed to these towns having ta imputation- of 100,0(10. The popula- reign- and it I were '0 state his name, it would, lam sure, , belt re us. I will tell the T-1 ' ~' r n ( )P '6'i'inns of the kind reef Lion of the towns is 169,000,- and the remaining rural poph. be received by gentlemen on_ both bides with universal te- I opp...std to-we ate adverse to *- iiii 'litien-la ' a W.l" we are Moon is 228,000, yet the urban population' of 169,000 re- !meet. - You now knew that bribery is not prevented by the prop).ah Mended on such erroneous new and unnecessary turns etsven Members tO Parliament, while the 2e8.000 Minot, mid yotr*ilefind that it does ref . :pre - vent something sent.- (Cheers.) I tell him that if: anyceleulations as the pre only return the two ,Members for We'st Kent.-( Loud -Ise. "ledividuelt were not merely be :ten from the polls, any other subject is brought forward, ritiect on this or cheers. O Yes. but year . after year we bave been told that but were knocked down, beaten, and stabb. - d when proceeding fourieled on more accurate data than the onebePe it will be it i s ni.,st unjust to the to tns - that our representative rys- about their urdiusry occupations in op •n day in distant parts (B e an) What we are opposed to is tampering before us.- teen is Memorable to territorial influences, and that it is an of the city.- (Hear, hear.) The police appeared to have positary of political power-to constant sift With the de ng arid change artificial means of 'giving preponderince to the, landed in- been utterly inefficient, and the honored thousand citizen sol- ing ' of the depositary of political power as the most ' terest. We never heard a'single word of , these extraordi- diers, of whom the New York papers boasted so much, were thing to a Couetry that' can be conceived.-(Cheers.) mentions nary circumstances. We have heard a great many contrasts content to remain at borne - (Laughter)-while a few gangs may talk of tampering with a policy,and made between the number of representatives returned by of ruffians commanded all the approaches to the polling- things worse; but that which is worse is, tampering w i t h fen the great towns - in South Lancashire and the smaller booths, and in one' instance destroyed the ballot-box "- the constituency of England.-(Cheers.) f there l i * S - to with be boroughs in the south of England. But nOarlitunentary (Laughter.) I find no fault with my non . F riend and others a change,. let it be a change always called for by clear n T e Reformer has yet condescended to favour the House with the for recommendin g the adoption of a new mode of voting in this ceesity - (Hem-, hear) -and one which is calculated to give more extended views to which I have now alluded , vie ws countr y . This is the laud of free discussion, and every one general-I will not say final-hut general and permanent which I should hope will now be accepted as the result of a is at liberty to recommend what he thinks best, bat it is satisfaction.-(Cheers.) I ask, is the proposition of the mere extensive and temperate experiencemo(Cheers.) I remarkable that in the instance of the ballot, as in that of Hon. Member for Montrose; the whole facts on the statement will now appeal to that favoured region any mention of the proposed new distribution of electoral power, the of which it is founded I have shown to be utterly fallacious, which is so favourably received in this House, and whose, facts on one side only are stated-only a one-sided view is is that a proposition calculated to give such general and fortunes, commercial, Parliamentary, and political, are not brou g ht before us, and only one class of considerations is permanent satisfaction ?-(hear, bear.) The propo ition only the subject of so many dscassions in the m ineste mm emo o dminem onem olo te mem_nmeae.-hemm)- -I- returnee oho- -of the Noble Lord_at the head of the late Government, is that Commons.,beitt whim , is i te mo m m o mm e nmememesto many narrative from the destruction of the ballot-box. Teis last one calculated to give general and permanent satisfaction? leagues, contederatons-(Cheere)-and associations. The outrage upon the freedom - . i of election has very naturally The Noble Lord will confess that, whatever be its merits, it people of , this part of the country . are celebrated caused extreme t calculated • to we that general and permanent sa fer their ' powers of statistical analysis.--(A laugh .) that brutes The g of the must be met by brute force, while the Tribune tasmc ion. sense They . t favour us with the publication -of tracts on, is • among other things, the profits that the colonels who thus trampled upon the highestt 'who will say that if thatproposition had been privilege that a free man one .brought of regiments gain by clothing their soldiers, and they are as can enjoy, should have been shot like dogs by the freemen fairly under discussion , it would have received the concur go:tinted with the most minute details. But they have never whom their hireling souls thus villanonsly insolted."- rence of the House.-(Hear, hear.) Wecannot sanction the called . the attention of the people to these facts. - (Cheers.) (Great laughter and cheering.) Now, I beg my Hon. proposition of the lion. Gentleman or his friends. - And may Here is the case of North Lancashire. There are four consi- Friend to observe that while, by the confession of no less we not flatter ourselves that be will consider these things derable towns in - ;forth Lancashire-Blackburn, Clitheroe, 'a personage than the Governor of the great state of New that he will investigate them, and calmly consider the im- Lancaster, said Preston. -The population of North Lanes- York, the ballot does not prevent bribe r y, it is likewise - portent information from the other side of the Atlantic which shire is upwards of 4e0,000. -These foar towns out of that perfectly inefficient for the prevention of scenes of I • • have given him, and that next year-with a health, only take 143,000, leaving for the rural c institnencies a horrible intimidation, such as we cannot even conceive in spirit, and energy which I hope he will long enjoy population of 316.000. The four -towns return seven Mem- this country, men being beaten and stabbed at the polling- (Cheers) shall find him • - we . coming forward more temperate bars, and the rural constituencies return only two Members booth. - (Hear, hear) My correspondent , for whom I know in his views and more eful in his arguments ?-(Hear). --t Hear, hear.) I will take the case of South Lancashire. my Hon. Friend entertains personally the highest conside- Till we have propositions different character b h . f t of a It has a population of Lbeo,ooo, under the new census. I ration, gives some further inf rmation respecting the ward I shall stand by the settlereeet made in 1831-(Cheers will take all the towns, the noblest seats of modern industry influence of the ballot, and I must confess that what lam and counter cheers)-nut because it was a settlement made -Aston, Bolton, Bury, Liverpool, Blanchester, Oldham. about to quote is really humiliating. "We understand by this party for our ' t Rechdale, Salford, Warrington Wigan. The population of that the Whig committee of the Bth Ward"-I ought, against our interests ; interests-for, on the contrary, it was these boroughs is 1,000,000, being two-thirds -of the whole ' however, in justice to remind the House that the Whig the country has been well governed -(Hear, I am bound to se , that -population of the county, and the remaining third- consists party in America is not identified with the party in this those who find fault with the °N - erned-(llear, hear - aad arrangement, which I o not, of the. rural population. Yet the million of manufac- country of which the Noble Lord opposite is the distinguished are bound to show that under thata turing population in this proud county of South Lance- chief and hereditary ornament-i• We understand that the has been misgoverned.-(Hear, herarrangeTent the country shire are . ' represented by ffiteen e Members, while Whig committee of the Bth Ward and other wards have though many of the laws pained are laws I n my opinion, could not have the rural population, which is half as great, is represented offered 100 dollars to every man who can secure twenty approved, the arrangement has proved satisfactory and the by only two Members. lam sure t h e H use have heard such democratic votes for the Whig tickets on election day."- preponderance of sentiment in the country imthat long, frequent, and repeated complaints of the injust i c e ( Cheers and lau g hter.) "This money has been partially the country has been well governed.-(Cheers.) under done to.towns, and the preference given to , t he a g ricultural raised b y the most shameful extortions from the office holders scarcely one of the great questions agitated in the country is interim, that they will not feel that lam abusing t h ei r p a- of the p art y It is said that every policeman in the ire met, ig which, in this Parliament, has not been and tr tience by these details- ( Cheers , from the Ministerial districts has been taxed fifteen dollars toward s defra y in g theretore when gentlemen come forward with new proposi benches ) I will therefore take the county of E ast Nor- the ex p enses of the election - (Continued laughter.) By tiona, if they cannot show that the present construction of folk, in which their are two great towns. East Norfolk Mile means the Whigs seek to- crush every in ependent this House is calculated o favour misgovernment, and at has a pap 'lemon of 250,0 0. Norwich and Yill mouth has feeling in the voter, and to make him the mere tool of party he same time are unable to place before us any clear and a• population of less than 00,1100. Yet the 99,t 00 persons With the tummy procured in this manner political hacks are coherent scheme that promises a more ameliorative system, I in the manufacturing towns and the seaport are represented sent to buy up the votes ot the poorer, and yet more depot- must uphold the system that exists , though I believe it one eye tour Members, while the agricultural populmicer of East dent classes in those wards. (Cheers and laughter.) This that was conceived in no fri ndly spirit to the Try party.- Norfelk, nearly deuele its amount, are ogle represented by payment of 101 dollars to every man who can procure 20 (Rear, hear.) But it i , one by which reme diet ir fluences awe elembers.-(Gtreers.) I now approa•Ci Yorkshire, and democratic ~ vo:es for t , Weig ticket is certainty intolerab le, have been ex p erienced under th- good sense and support of teat is the has comity I will quete. I will first begin with tied I have been particular in bringing it under the notice of the People. of England, and under wttieh our institutions h ave Eist Yoroehire. The Bast Ridieg has a poptiletion of my Men. Friend, in order that he may empley the great in- flourished-institutions which, I believe, are absolutely ne -2 1,0 0, and co,.taitis two towns, one, Hull, a port of great flume•t he possesses not only in England, but on the other ems ry, not only o the ereatnes.s of this country, but to the in, ortance The town population ot the East Riding s:de of the Atlanic, in preventing democrats electors lkill; treedern of the pe•ple.- (Great cheering.) is 94.000, represented by foar Meeteers. The rural Urito;d to Vote fir anything so bad as the " Whig ticket."- Mr. H. BERKELEY, who teas :emelt wholly inaudible population, 1 V.,000, ere re presented 'by only. half (Laughter.) All this iniquity is practised under the opera- from the buzz of cenvereation in the M ,-, L ,e, g at eve e would a l toet i a . that amount -(lltar, - hear.) The West Ili 'mg re 'jou of that very - system which my Heneurable Filmed nation relative 'o, tit, ballet He stated th h la that and it I were to seek en instance to show - says is the only me ins of preventing br.b is, a;d which serve the more particular expression of his views till a !Inure hat the distribution of representetion is not made with any the Elonouraole Member fir Britoil would, perstoele us ito •lay, when he brougto on win motion on the subject, :mere to promote or retain the preponderance of tee landed adopt assn ittfallible mede of preveetirg itttimidat on.- jected to the ballot, b, , iog ed up with an y other question interest, I shituld reek it in the West Riding, that is so (Cheers.) I MU . StAll'ne one paragraph' more.' beciuse it re- whatever. The Right - Hoe. Gentleman had alluded to a m i the te -ofour diseueions, There are nine pork, to legislarime ant hority. In the 'exeeri•-nce of New disturbance in New Yeak and to the ballombox b e ing rrequent y su jeet considerable towne in the West Riding-Leeds, Sheffield, York, at least, the ballot has been proved ioefficfeitt for the brole-n, but he would give the House another piece of infor- Bradford, Halifax. Hudderefield, Wakefield, and others. purpose ot preventing bribery at elections; and the folio*• matien tram enteric-:, and that was, that in the eouthere, or Tim entire population of the West Riding is 1,300,000. The ing p , eamme and resolution have been presented to the As ,ri-t.....retio States of the Ueion, they were seeking to get town population is 500, 00, and the rural population semuly :-" Whereas the use of money at elections, for the rid o`tte ba lot, I ec.use the friends of the abolition of aOO,OOO. The town population are represented .by sixt -en purpose of influencing and corrupting electors, is an in- ee.very took protectte , under the ballot, and the enemies of Memb ors, although they are only 5000th) in number, wbile creasing slid dangerous evil, and the bestowment. or offer, Abolition bad no means of detecting their votes.-(Bear.) the rural population of 8011,000 are representedt not by sixteen promise or reception of money, or compensation in any fur in, Mr. OSBORNE congratulated the Helms and thtough Members, bat be two.-(Loud cheers fro n the . Ministerial should be made good and sufficient grounds for the challenge th •m the country on this, that whatever evasions or rays denchesn This is a summary of what I have just stated. and rejection of a vote; but, whereas doubts exist as to the laic:ohms might have gene forth (hiring the last week, upon In Smith Lancashire esteem the :borough population every conetitutionelitnof tO lew itisfranchieette an elector, there- one noint the Chanceller of the Exchequer bad been euffi -70,000 perilous have a representative, and every 257,00 e of fore, resolved, 'Teat the Committee on the judiciaty be and ene my exp e e i t ,m( Olean beer.) Treeing in the footsteps - -the rural population have a representative. •In the West are hereby requested to exam ine and re p ort whether, in of the most iiluettioue warder of the age, the Righ Hon. Riding of Yorkshire every 32 , 000 of the pop ulition of the their opinion; a law conformable to the foregoing prea able Gentleman, after much circumlocution, bad formally de- Riding ns have a Member, and every 400,000 of the agricultural would be a violation of any Provision of the Constitution clued the intention of the Government to - abide by the population have a similar advantage.-(Hear, hear.) I know of this State.'" Let not oar countrymen run away with Reform Act of 1831.-(Cheers.) He had announced that it may be said, and it 'will -be --midi unless I answer the idea that corruption is the necessary 'consequence of Her Majesty's Government did not intend to move on witq it by anticipation, "You have made out a very good co- the old mode by which we give our votes in this coun- the spirit of the age --(No, no) - -that they looked upon the lourable case in favour of your views; but you have selected try.-(Hear, hear.) - I believe it to be a growing senti- Reform Bill as a final measure-that the old finality dodge five or six important but partial inst ances." Sir, I have'an- meat in the conviction of Englishmen that corruption is was to be renewed, and that come what might the Govern ticipated that objection, and I have tested. the matter in ano- the consequence of men not being properly brought upe went would give no reform in Parliament.- (Hear, hear.) ther manner, which it must be admitted is a fair mode. -(Hear, hear.) You may pass laws ostensibly to pre- The Right Hon. Gentleman said he would certainly give the Here I have a catalogue of the population of every town in vent , corruption in countries where nothing is secret, country no reform in this Parliament tier in the Parliament England which has a population of not less than 20,000. or in countries where nothing is open; but corruption cannot to come.-(Cries of " No, no," from the back. Ministerial There are 77 towns in this 16t, beginning with Ashton and be stopped by law; it can only be stopped by elevating the benches.). He knew it was the intention of times ardent ending with York, with a population, many of them, much tone of the community, and making men ashamed of the Reformera who cried " no" to give the country a farther exceeding 20,000. They include almost all the seats of cern- thing itself • -(Cheers.) You must seek for an antidote to measure of reform, but unfortunately they were not in the Me me and manufacturing industry, and they include a popu- corruption in that direction and not in new-fangled sys era Cabinet. Let there be no mistake on this point, that the lation of 6,200,C 00 , who are represented by 133 Members. o f e l ec ti on . I sa y, further, that the tone of the community present Cabinet was satisfied with the settlement in 1831- •There• are - several • towns - which do -not possess popu- in which we live is becoming elevated. Every successive (No, n •)-and that they would be no party to give reform a lations of 20,000, but which are considerable places, quarter of a centu r y shows a decrease of corruption. No further trial- The Right Hon. Gentleman had commenced .the seats of commerce, and which ought to he in- man who knows an y thin g of the tone of public life a hundred his speech by attacking the speech of the Hon. Member for serted in any list of the ' kind, although they dp not pos. years ago can hesitate to admit that corruption then ascended the University of Oxford-(No, no, and a laugh)-he sess populations of quite 20,000, suc h as Lowestoft and much higher in soc iety than it does at present. You have b:'gged the Hon. Gentleman's pardon-be (Sire. Wood) had Lynn Regis, I have added abOut 30 of these boroughs to driveu corruption f ro m the higher classes. In Proportion as not descended to that yet- he was the Member of a popular the 77 boroughs, all of which have a population of 20,000, education extends, men become more pure, and when the o nstituency-the Member for the city of Oxfird, and the end some of them a vast and immensely increased pepala- same influences come into operation among the inferior Right Hon. Gentleman said it was a speech to be made don.. The population of these 107 large towne, and strictly classes you may hope to obtain a result which it is for the upon the resolution to be moved by the Noble Lord borohgh COnitittlendee, is more than 6,500,000, represented interest of all classes should be accomplished.-(Cheers.) I (Lord J. Russell); but lee (Mr. Osborne) would leave it .by 187 Members. The result of this analysis is the Mllow- have noticed what I conceive to be ram Hon. Friend's total to the House, it the speech of the Chancellor of the Exche ing :- If these Members represent EMOO,OOO, about half the failure to prove, that the proportion o f r epresentatives is net quer was not also directed to that very motion.-(No, no.) population, taking the population of the count r y at consistent with the different clams o f population. I think I He wcuid not weary the Reuse by heading through the 1,7,000,000, that remaining portion of the community are have shown that nothing can be more erron eous than dreary mass of confused statistics which the Right Hon. represented by Members barely exceeding in number the the opinion 83 prevalent in a portion of this Home Gehtleman had thought it his duty as Chancellor of the E on Members representing this catalogue of towns.-(Hear.) I and thecountrtt that the landed interest possesses an undue chequer to bring before them in order to show that th e find that the population of these boroughs have 35,000 per- preponderince in this House. I think I have also shown, agricultural constituencies were not fairly represented, while sons to every Member of this House, and that the popu- by reference to figures 'bearing official sanction which are boroughs and towns had a greater proportion of represe n t s . lation of the rest of England, the rural populalion, have open to everybody, that it is almost impossible to distribute tires. But he told the Right Hun. Gentleman that, on his 36,000 for every Member.-(Cheers.) So that, 'taking this the electoral power more justly than is done at present own showing, he was bound to bring in a Reform Bill to re_ complete and comprehensive view, when you come to a between he two great classes which represent the town and move the injustice done to what he called the territorial ' in. fair distribution of the representation-between the land and country. I also venture to think that I have offered my terest. But be had no such Slesign ,• he had omitted, too, all the town population, you have only between each a differ - lion. 'Friend some reasons for doubting whether as much mention of Irelan d ; and he ( Mr. Osborne ) f eared that ence of 1,000 in the proportiota of the popalation.-(Hear.). co rruption and intimidation may not prevail under a sys tem was g oin g to legislate for that country on very In both cases, in the case of the urb an and the rural and of secret voting as we have ever experienced under the -principles. - (Oh, oh I) Without bei ng enamoured of the different l an d e d population, you have a less difference in the number systern which exists in this country. - ( Hear , hear.) I hav e mo tion of tam lion. Memeer for Montrese to of persons represented by eac h Member than has been quoted further given' some r easons for su pp osin g that m y Hon. country into districts, he was so far diesatisfitof . map this by Mr. Mackay. Whether you look to the town or country Friend and those about him should he si tate, w i th t heir p re- of 1831, which her Majesty's Governm en t had pronounced the Bill population, they are, therefore, more amply represented in sent constitetional doctrines, to recommend short Parlia- to be final-No !no 1)-that Le would y pronounced it-par this House thau is laid down in the pamphlet that has meats . (Hear, hear.) I next come to the PrOpo , i - ticularly for the latter part of the pro vote for, men alluded to as the proper exemptar and type of represen- thin, that the franchise • ought to be very much ex• proportion of reeresentatives be made l''' s ition , " that the tetion in t his House. Having examined this subject so far, 'tended ; and on this I have one olmervation to make. 'he amount • f population and pro ert rnore consistent with I have arrived at a different conclusion MOM that .of my Viewing this question with perfect impartiality, I trust. Gen.leman said he would makeP 3h" The Right Hon. Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose- I think that his sta- I have been much struck by the great exagge'ration which ee ballot; and had referred a colourable case against tistics, and the statistics of his school, are founded upon pervades the statfirnents made by my Hon. Friend and York. He did not object to the riots in New iartial instances, and supported by fantaBtie c.imbinationS his associates. I remember last session to have heard a dii inail, taking the eme i,f meerica but , g to the Pi ht Hon. Gentle which convey erroneous impressions that do not justify the tinguished Member of this House-one who is in the last of select the American tariff, b , he wished he in the „they that he edvocatee.-(Cheers.) All the doe upon ot addressing it wit' ; great ability, and with sufficient coed - constioitien of ~ te , nu a. but take what was good Was the .vhielt he his relied appear to me completely illusory, dense in his cause and himself-1 mean the Hon_ Membei mbancellor of the Exeee 3 - Lemma cheers) elections .n.l, as the facts to which I have appealed are f.,r M euchre. er ask this gatee ion :-" Is tee sy - tem to do , vas carried On in t me tomer content with the O st. the case :pen to all, and may be tOund in the books in endured in which only one 1: seven of the in popufatfoi. of Harwich, the bet ' t ntre ? led be rememberl t r-General •t imtnechatee si t F 'Jug 1 for which the So im o Ms library, I shall be surpri,ed to find him main- enjeys the Tranchise?"-(Tutnultuouhs ea•rhe”erft r s o g m th e 0 • s ' Kelly) was a carld . raining his pothion that - in the distribution of the rer tel owed this appeal; ami • '' ' } h ear d t e ll; sentiment them nut n iated. because the r the hustings as electors catned a tv '' immentation the, town population is not justly . teemed in Mom) Ay; I say so. 1“u c eere that - I ' ne adult in ' 1 ti'' heir perquisites -, and it oterieas that riots bap retpect to a comparison with the country PoPol -diem - you cheer it now. Is . it trueon y.. • a e ~ ~ ,,,e n i n t I seta. . e wes net . e, i ... lion ? 60 far tratmteme? Here are th figures, let us ex- 1 °I Ltiolariti duttim al ie° (Cheers ) It appears to nit, Sir, that this is a postmen that seven enjoys the telt as 184 aMr was prepared before the puttlica. o ee eC r rti teeobtairicd by. t . fence can no linger' be supp itted..-(Cheers. ) Going to the next amine them'. Thie p i t ieffi Id ha I , the- exis of toopoeititre, my Mote Friend as us to • teaks a heel) yet e. .ieve compared with the elect() e! u P l O -in • and nomiiiie ha- -on Gentleman that east the duration of Parliament ought. not to exceed Ahem ceu,us of 1841, which 1 1 T the evil. lint a'could 11 tee Right H • years. Sir, I have no inveterate prejudice to shorter Par- lists of Great Britain fur 1'42-3. he prop rtfionB Inuit eel- Ise , ut e e felt have ballot. Both sides Ottumwa' I have often said in this Hottee that triennial dently be niush ahour the satne as they would have been h I . people were &lei-miled to and be confessed that he be- Parliainents were always supported by the Tory Party , had availed ins sell of the census of i 8 t 1 for the purpose e - ...ere to ha blamed for this. • ry were to be traced back stem of Pub , that statement has been received with scoffine by Hon. Gen- comparison. The electors' for 'meet Britain in 18 i 2 O wore , eveti, if this 6 Y At '' - id t o found to Mein with the Wbig i Lateen opposite, who do not condescend to pay much regard 941,782,. and the adult males were, in 1341, 5,96 I eme, .fe its soLree, it v" o u! Int on e , who were obliged to re to any other history than that in which they form such dise - which' gives, instead of 1 voter in 7, 1 voter in 5, omit itch pr - yin the time 'it m eans of oi. po the iiAlueticets tinguished charactersem(Cheers and, laughter.) But there fractione. - ( Hear.) But from the 4,9a1.045 adult 111.1: 'rttoit as the h o e a rn e . 3 . l (Criee Ili .‘ Hear, bean") The fact is no doubt that the change in our manners, whi‘h . has ;in- some deductions must' be made. For the tomy - atm ' \ u 'aring ° g ains" : was tinc(re in the deeire of putting down meased the busineis of the Reuse of Commons, is an ele• abroad and in Ireland, and (or the navy and merchantnuv. Nas, f,either,,l),6_?; had ,‘ h beau Sincere th - e Would have edomed Merit that must be taken into consideration when you wish men afloat I deduct )0,650, which leaves • the adult soh- e iberY, ballot t e. e 0 e, oh) ,to protect the people, tiet Only ro ascertain the proper duration of Parliaments. Bet, popatetion at 4,791,39 n Then I deduct 35.0:0 f ,the male mi te by, . , and corruption o but from intimieation, which lest at home 111 0 , 9 for the nay and r army tom bribe e re membering, what has happened here during the e ~ . e merchant Beam ,,, ~. ,.„., r ife than those. The Member for the University f e rtnight. lam filled with astonishment to hear the . 74 Re- _ _,149 for airnemome, p ens i oners , mee ammo eras In" . paupers, BSc, rapier)made the stereotypedobjection eon e r. old lunatics arm ,t Da • . formers and Liberals come forward in favour of triennial prisoners, and 161,354 for domestic th t't l lo r b What tesvente, ,wh a t. . 0 t his asietron a i You eneariger the Monarc y. from Parliaments. What have they told ns this year? One ways excepted any scheme of refortn. (M e : are ead endangered the Monarchy in France? Wee it not that a, member of the Government is very anxious to bring forward Then I deduct the re lens of the r, heani + o n of 31°00,000 had only 230,000 electors? And here Population °, - , 26, and na,. a measure which be considers of the utmost importance for reduce the adult population to little mote ' . 4' r 3' 29 566. he mutt express his semprise to hear the Chancellor of the the security and geed government of ' the realm. Bet what Thus, instead of lin7, it is, by the fie than 4,1 . Eo n-mitter ftefine the Sovereignty of the country to be in table in • - ~ - Why, you are bringing forward a measure official retinae, only lin 4. -cu e er, ,ores on ou l r moat go Queen Victoria ; and had the Right Hon. Gentleman been are we told? Parliament Cheers and laughter.) further. Those bold statetnents , hear.) But . -• on that (the Opposition) side of the House, he would, in the last year of a . ( .i-(A. of-I 11 not call them sitting You would legislate in a condemned. Parhament the demagogues, - after what we have heard from 7" the motoßlem- no doubt have defined the Stvereignty as consisting in idligh:y It. can't be heard of. You ought . to counsel ber for Montrose-but the bold t Hn Gentlemen Queen, Lords, and Commons.- (Oh, oh.) Thu Right Sovereign to prorogue and dissolve the - Path . , ament as some as having dwindled do " temeflts of o . Elul Honourable Gentleman had objected to the aecresy of. the wn to tine that I have no an possible." But if in the last year of a Parliament so much population of 4,129,566, to u ' I tore! body , ballot. ,He ought to have been the last man in the is lost, should have, if my Hon• Friend's proposition gives lin 4 1 ItUral House to have done so, considering he was a member of time we - ask what am Ito do with the agrien h --and if thet yet heard a Government which was shrouded in secrecy The were adopted, duennial Parliaments-(A laugh)--and, ) , . and urban labourers?...in ) I have no t old and favourite scheme of, annual Parliaments were again that the Hon. Gentleman ear, hear.friends, while they motet Mayncoth cry was to be used es a claptrap to go put forward and' adopted, Meta dmuld. h Ave . annual Parlia- plain that •only lin and his exercise of the franchise, to the hustings-(Hear, hear) - and her Majesty's Govern laincondemned Parhaments-(A laugh) - 7 have the give a vote to the uncut would not speak their minds upon it, but he' could meats; that is to say, • have any wish,under system, to and the Commons of England could never presume to legis- 1,435,412 e any is country.-(Hear, hear.) tell them it would become a very serious question for them, would cease to late, because they would be dissolved, and ~ I' oever heard 0 P asantty spread over t 5 is that kind. Well, then, -(Qaestion, question.) The Hon. Member for Deblin bold assertion of exist In the very year they met. The third! proposition if I deduct lie f oro 4,129,566, I have remaining University knew nothing of the efficacy of the ballot-he of my Honourable Friend is the recommendation of the only 2,6e0 these labourers from the electoral body, is had no poor men to deal with who might be swayedby some ,154, which as su or nearly lin 3.-(Hear, hear.) attorney, or by some one who could put the screw on him, vote by ballot. Now, it is always the case that the man. lin 2 and - nor of taking the votes can never be considered as an B ut - a fraction of 86, the statements we have always but the representatives of popular constituencea knew what abstract question. You must . necessarily look at the heard - what a difference .t ..../flear, lime e e What a difference hose h e were.-(Divide, divide I) Wh- , tes you have to take.. If you have to take a very large from on this subsc 1 l y had they made at Manchester and at Leetle I not seen it stated in all the papers that at a late election the Ott - the statements number of rotes; or if you bare, .on. the contrary, a v ery Fassociations .at LiVerpool or any- agents wrote to say that if the tenants did tot vote for Mr. small number, the method by which you will recommend From those of reform . onee a d i fference from the statements enede Frewen they mast not expect the lendlords to deduct from them to be taken necessarily assumes a different character. mhere else! • m h I-(Bear, Bear.)_ e What a difference from their rents ?He could have wished that the motion h o e been With a limited constituency the ballot. may, be a very con- in PeelP T'enttss'of those erratic orators who, during the iong put in a Letter form, but he would vote for it now, as he stitutioeal measure; but are. Hon, e:Gentlemen prepared to the batestatements astounded all - the world!-Hear,( b ear .) In_ had vo t e d for similar motions before. If the Noble Lord t the ballot on this condemn ?. Well, 1 will vacation, Boweabsolutely-little more and his party, who said they toek offi. barriers to demo accept assumestead a one in . . , c Jo n includtng 1,5 ,000 cf labourers, who cracy, instead of taleino that they. are not prepared se to accept it, and. that they - ' a l y, eye of t ereeelves as barriers- Oat e ou - would not recommend vote by.hallot with the panent con- .NT one o f yon have unequivocally p r oposed to en franei i. e t w ore sometimes swept away by the waves of democracy stifuency.-(A. • cry of " ties") .You are not?-(Cees no(tCbeers.) It appears to me, then, that the propositions tee would join Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House " Yes," from the Opposition benches.) I h heard I ' of -th House ate crude, that they do not bring with them (Ironical cheers and lot; titer malting a channel for the have tc- fore e facts, and democratic w - night oligarchy, but I never heard of an A , ..,, h1; .,, ,, of a more canning prod' of investigation, are not in accordance with has , SA e, very sure was he that, so far from weaken and successful " ev i e c ' s to "1-7," au oligarchy than to 'nve tdo ndi. indicate that degree of research which the House ing Queen, Lords, and Commons, the Noble Lord, if he pro a limited number °I persons -IX" the suffrage - and to 1 a right to expect in all matters of this kind. (Hear, he r.) ,party treated and r r 1 , -Operiy trusted the people, would 10 them from inspection, from criticism, and control a on guardthe part rt, appears' to me that they are based on statistical errors strengilwring both this and the other House of Parliament. of the untith' en e hised millions ab out whom We here beard L.O mere flagrant than their political blunders, and that we Lord J • RU S'SELL -- Sir, I heat so often addressed you much -(Loud cheers from the Ministerial be No, I cannot, whatever may be our opinion of the policy rem m- on the subject of the motion now before the House, that I do not believe from the speeches of m Hon. Friend the mended, approve of it, founded as it is on such e n.°l2ec!us shall not think it hecess , ry , ne i t her would it be agreeable to Member for Montrose end other parties on that.side of the and imperfect data. - (Hear, hear.) - I am not. one of' those the House , to go at any length into the several propositions House, that they sincerely desire to see the' - P-esint coasts - who think, that because I disapprove of a proposition which my ao monourable Friend has introduced. It appears tuency vote by 'ballot • They always say that an • extension brought forward in this immature manner, lam bound to ' Bille, Sir, the si ' mple question is, whether the adoption of a of the franchise is a necessary concomitant of the vote by oppose every proposition.brought forward to remedy griev- founded on the principles contained in my Hooottrable ballon-( Hear,' hear). But where do they draw the vances connected with the representation of the people.- Friend's propositions would conduce to the good government line ?-(Rear. ) Where is the line to be drawn, if they . (Hear, hear.) There has been yery free criticism on the ,of the country, and on that proposition I have come most admit that the franchise is a right? If you, say that other side by the new supporters of the Noble Lord of the clearly to the opinion that it would not conduce to the good yen do not want to draw the' line, and tel us " I measure which he proposed when he was a Minister of the government of the country.-(Loud cheers.) I believe that have submitted to these restrictions in deference to the Crown.- (Hear, hear.) I think a sense of decency, if it you had a different distribution-which, however, bas prejudices of Other persons -if You •vf ial to have aui - nothing else, ettoold hate led those gentleme n to I ° 4 ;ga - not been chalked out by De/ tl9ll9lllAble ..reiendeebne Bun THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 26, 1852.