The Sun. — London, England, 1852-04-06 00:00:00

THE SUN', - s ... bad employed a military force for the suppression of that i savages into the citizen s of a regularly established state; we rebellion—that he proclaimed martial law; under rn which he bad vainly expected that t heir chiefs would recognise and caused= souse pe rs ons to be put to death and others to be I observe the law of nations; we had, entered into. diplomatic imprisoned. Now, withregard to the twenty-one executions relations with them—appointed a gents to :'reside amongst which had been referred to, they had the authority of Sir 11. them, stipulated that the ch i e fs s hould prevent d e p re - Ward for stating that not a single individual was executed .dations--ahould restore stole proper ty,, or, make compensa- Those stipulations h ad or imprisoned simply ' for having borne arms against her , tion. , the Kafirs. been ill : kept, for Majesty's authority. .• Every one of these individuals were so were—to use the words of their own great chief, Sandiiii—a punished because- they had taken a , .Part in those atrocious nation of. irreclaimabe thieves; a n d . there was no difference the greatest skill and ' nge crimes which marked the progress of the ; insurrection, ouch . between chiefs and fo l lowers. T he c hiefs had been utterly as the murder ' of the Count Mataxa and the burning of his .faithless; they g h t a n d e displayed provisions four servants. ' The , Honourable Member had referred..to , a nuity in *waditre aties. The frontier petition alleged to have been signed by twenty-three priso- farmers had b itte rly __ complained that the British Gover n s. ners in the lonian Islands; who were confined for the, part .ment, which had deprived ,them _of the right of redressing. they took in thft insurrection at Cephalonia. Now, after the their own, wrongs, had not su ffi ciently,. protected; them • statement . he had made, on the authority of Sir H. Ward , and a g ainst the depredations Of the Kafirs. Some of these cern-. seeing that some of those - prisoners whose lives had been plaints had, without doUbt, been well founded. - With regard spared had been sentenced to be imprisoned, some for life and toethershe (Sir. W. Molesworth ) must observe that, when others for twenty years, and that not more than two or three in d i v idu als . had to redress their own wrongs, and when, in years have elapsed, he thought it was rather premature— so doing they had to incur considerable risk and tr ouble, even admitting it to be a constitutional course—for this House. they were apt to overlook minor wrongs , which were not on. worth the risk and trouble of redressing, and - this had , • been. to endeavour ;to procure their deliverance.- The ,H the c ' Gentliniati not 'content with making these charges withi n case under the commando , system. But when, to which the treaty the House , had made is - statement out of doors, system, a Government undertook to . redress 'the , as under he had no Opportunity of giving a contradiction. T he Hon. wrongs of individuals, then every wrong, however trifling, gentleman will recollect . that he had addres sed a le tter h to real, or ime g i nary„ & became, if redressed, the source of grie the Daily . News in the latter part of last y ear, in w hich . 4 vows complai n t aga i ns t th e G o vernment. Thus whenever, stated , that .he had received a letter fro m two prisoners . m , un d er the areaty, eYStena, a sheep had been lost or an ox had Cephalonia i th e c ontents of which he h ad ado p ted b y en- strayed on th e eas t ern f ron ti er of the colony.of the Cape, th e closing'it for publication in the lam a p a pe r. Amongst other , farmer h ad invariably assumed that the ' Ka fi rs i had stolen t,.. , charges containeePin the letter made against Sir . H. Ward, . and that the Government, ought to recover, it. Therefore,, was one to this effect—that Sir H. Ward, on the..occasian of partly on account of that, partly on account of imaginary his second visit last autumn to the island of Cephalonia, had depredations, the Colonial Government had been, constantly . to withdraw thei r some of th e se prisoners signatures. called piton to enfo rce the preiisions of the treaties with the induced to the petition by offering bribes of money to their- wives, savages. . But those treaties could only be more , strictly. and holding out.hopes of•pardon to the prisoners themselves. enforced..by constant recourse to armed. force, , and. that Now; that Waal , - charge of a serious character, and reflecting, would lead to war. Soma Governors rashly engaged in war, gravely upon the conduct of Sir H. Ward.. But Sir H. Ward, others endeavoured to avoid war.. For instance, Sir George had written to him (Mr. F. Peel) on the subject of that Napier, who Shadbeen GoVernor of the Colony of the Cape charge, and he would take leave .to. read the paper re- from 1837 to 1844; had stated in his dispatches, and in his ce i ve d !torn him in reference to it. What was th e authority., - evidence before the Kafir Committee, that he had been re upon which the charge was made? On the authority of two peatedly 'urged to . Make - War upon the. Kafirs, and that there prisoners, one of whom, Lamburnatos, was the second in were many, persons in South Africa who.prOfited l a rg el y b y , command, and directly concerned in the b urn i ng o f C ount Kafir, wars. Sir George Napier. , stated that he . thought it hlataxa and his four servants. This man has . written. a a great folly for a great country like England to be easily paper in modern Greek. and dated fr om C or f u , t h e transitiv e provoked i nto a Kafir war; that he had declined 'for the tion of which he had before him. The subject and purport sake of a few head of cattle to incur the expense of a K.afir. of it was that he bad never signed nor heard of the letters war; and. he had proposed, instead of going to war, to . pay to Mr. Hume; that an imposition. had, therefore; been.prac. in, certain special cases,, compensation oat of the public ; tired upon him,. for that he could not have signed it, because With who had suffered from Kafir 'depredations. it purports to have come from Cephalonia, w h ereas. With regard to this policy.. he (Sir W. Molesworth) mast in reality, -he was all the. time in • the House of , mention a fact well deserving of attention - namely, that the Correction .at , Corfu. Having thus taken the trouble of interest of one-fifth of the , sum which a year .ef Kafir war. ascertaining the truth of .thia charge.made against Sir H. would cost, weuld, more than corer the average annual loss Ward; he trusted that the 'House would agree with him in from Kafir depredations. For Sir George Napier had stated thinking: that- the • source f ron t whence the Hon. Member that durin g . the six years Of his governmegt the average an-. derived his infOrmation. was quite enough of itself to vitiate . nual loss from Kafir clepredatioets had not exceeded 36,0001., every - Other charge and allegation that could be made against a year. ' The Committee knew that a Ka fi r war now, costs Sir H. Ward . - -:( Hear hear.) In respect to the exer c ise of about 1,000,000/. a year, and he (Sir W. Molesworthifound. the high- police ' power under which he imprisoned editors that the statements of ir George. Napier were confirmed by and wiitets bf newspapers,- he (Mt. Peel) could assure the official returns. For the ten years of Sir George Napier's Hon. - GimileMan that Sir if. Ward was as staunch an advo- government there had been .ne Kafir war, Sir, George was cate of a free press as •the Hon. Member himself, and that. ,an old. soldier—he knew the evils and the, coat of war, and. he Wale - correct an appreciation of' what the rights of -the would:not rashly,eegage in it. Ile- thought that neither. pressavereas •any person could have. ' But Sir He Ward felt the honour nor the dignity . of Great Britaiu required it. to . that it Nita only-by this' exercise 'of the high police power treat savage tribes as civilised nations, nor to engage in re-. that he tould punish those slanderous, immoral, and seditious • gular war with Kafire as with a European- community, for Publications, that had disgraced the columns of the lonian violation of treaties and for offences ,against, the law of newspapets ; and he was entitled to credit for so doing. , nations. The policy of Sir George Napier had not been Until hive' or three years • ago-there was a strict censor- lollowed by his successors. In 1846,,5ir ,Peregriee , Maitland , ship of the press, and - Lord Seaton proposed to remove :ievolved us in a Kafir war for the toes of one axe. In 1847 it. Earl Grey ultimately•assented to its removal ,on one , Sir Henry Pottinger renewed that war. for the. loss .of two condition —'namely, that • a law of the press, - punishing goats-Great Britain had about .a couple of millions to• pay, sedition, immorality, libel, and slander—similar 'to the and the consequence was that tha British .money abounded . one in this country--should be passed. Lord Seaton did . in Cape Toivn,, and commerce flourished. The present war proctire • such a law •to be passed, but experience , had -would' be more expensive than the last, for we had now in shown' that that law was utterly futile and ineffectual. South Africa half as .many troops again ,as we had, in the, Sir 11. Ward-' found it impossible to obtain a verdict war of 1846. The present war had been, produced partly by under. it from an lonian jury. It should be borne in mind causes similar to those which had_ produced former Kafir that 'Sir IL Ward had ,showris a great readiness to be re wars—partly by three. special Causes, . Those causes. were-- lieved of this power. , He did propose in the last lonian Par- First, the conduct of 'Sir Harry Smith in making.himself in Bement to divest himself of this power, provided the As- 1847 the Mkori Mkalu, or great chief of British Kafraria ; sembly would substitutelfor it a 'better law for the press. 'Secondly, the frontier policy of Sir .Harry Smith, which had . That proposition was, however, rejected by a majority of 22 consisted in perpetual and vexatious interference with the to 18—a majority that was opposed to the policy of Sir. H, ,affairs of the Kafirs, and in a continued and galling. attempt Ward. H e certainly considered from 1817 to 1848 that the to destroy the authority of their chiefs; thirdly, . the igno, lonian people did not enjoy the full measure of independent ranee of Sir .Harry Smith. of, he feelings which the. Katirs en. and 'constitutiorea 'government which was guaranteed to tertaieed towards him and his frontier policy, lie ( Sir ,W. them "by dheireaty of 1815. They had only the appear- Molesworth) had proved these positions -at length last year. anceof in - electoral 'body, because they were only permitted He would not do - so again, for they had not been .contra to choose one out of two names that were submitted to them. dieted, and, in fact, they had been , admitted in the last dig , in the course of 1849 an adequate reform measure was car- patches of Lord,Grey. - Hethought. that Sir Harry Smith ried, and electoral body was increased from 1,50010 ought never to ,have been appointed governor of the about 6;000, and most - important rights were conferred upon Cape, and ought to have been recalled long ago. ,He spoke them': A people who were now possessed of a constituent only of the civil proceedings of Sir Harry Smith. .He d i d assembly, 'fairly c h osen by themselves, had- the power of . not feel competent to pronounce a decided opinion upon the working ont commerci a l represen t at i on , l ega l, or ot h er re - military proceedings of Sir . Harry Smith. He must, how e , forms , provided -they only showed themselves qualified to ever, say that he could not discover any essential difference exercise and enjoy, in a proper manner, the liberties which between those tactics and those for which Sir Harry .Smith., were conferred by a constitutional government.—(Hear.) . had acquired great renown in the. Kafir war of 1835. Those The motion was then agree d to, and the House went into tactics had been to starve the Kafirs into submission, by iri s Cortimittee of Supply. - - vading their fistnesse.s and .sweepitig off their . cattle.. For THR KAFIR WAR. the slimess of those tactics, it - was indispensable to prevent, On the vote for 460,0001. to defray the expenses of the the Kafirs from simultaneously invading .our colony and,- Kafirwar being proposed, sweeping off the cattle of our colonists. For these purposes: Sir W. MOLESWORTH' said he would not at present two armies were indispensable-enamely, an invading army discitstt the causes of the present state of South Africa, nor and a protecting army. ; .Of one of these armies Sir Harry what should be the' future - policy of this country towards Smith had been deprived by the discontent of the Dutch, toad South Af r i ca; .H e s hould confine his observations to the the disaffection of the Hottentots. Therefore, when Sir quest now before -the Committee, namely, - our expendi- Harry Smith invaded the fastnesses of the.Kafirs and swept , tare on account Of South: Africa. He , wished •to call the off the cattle, the Kafirs :turned our flank, invaded the colony, , attention of the -'Committee to the great Anal increasing and carried off the Cattle of `the colonists. And when Sir amount of • that , expenditure.: as shown by returns which Harry Smith: returned from. the fastnesses of the Kafirs, had been lately presented to Parliament. That expenditure bringing 'along with:him • their cattle, the Kafirs returned had - gone on steadily and rapidly increasing for the- last •to - their .fastnesses, bringing along . with them the. twenty years. On the average of the three years ending. cattle :of the colOnists. .Therefore , for the, ill-success 1850, it bad amounte d to halt a million a year, or to about of • Sir Harry Smith's , tactics, those persons were threetimes the average of the three years ending 1836 ; or chiefly to blame who had produced discontent. amongst to about 5/, a head for every European colonist in South the Dutch, and dissatisfaction amongt the Hottentots. Into sAeft ; Or s to about 20s. in the pound upon our exports to the cause of that discontent and disaffection he would not South Africa. Those exports rose and fell pretty much as inquire at present. He must say that when he considered oar Military expenditure increased or decreased, and were the position of ~our gallant troops in South Africa, in the greatest immediately after a Kafir war. The reason was midst of a population one-half of whom were hostile, and ai ple ; our exports to South Africa consisted chiefly of the other half were in about equal proportions discontented, anion merchandise for our troops, with some muskets and ammo- disaffected, and doubtful—when he considered that those jien for the Kafirs ; and daring er immediately after a troops had not suffered one positive.defeat, had not lost one Kafir ..r war there• was abundance of British gold in South single convoy, but had accomplished many gallant feats of ___a.tce,sand commerce flourished . Therefore, if we could arms—he thought that they deserved great credit forahem- W e rtlatir w our troops from South Africa, and as a selves, and reflected credit upon their veteran commander, ii:r nsation for so- doing were to make the colo- whose health had been worn out in the service of his coun act actuall y • present of all our . merchandise which they try.—(Hear.) A high military authority had expressed his The y consumed, w e should make a most excellent bargain. opinion in another place that when the fastnesses of the e greet increase in oar South African military expendi- Kafiri! were stormed by, our troops, they. ought to be de tarebdd arisen chiefly from two causes--namely, from the stroyed, . and roads ought to be mode into them. With the great increase in the extent of our South African dominions, utmost deference to that high authority, he (Sir W. Moles androm the abolition of the old and cheap sYstem 'of self- worth ) doubted , whether those t hings could be doneby any., rot p s action .by the colonists. In the course o f the last ten amount of military force which we could send to,South Africa. y_e sn rs . the British empire in South Africa had been more The - fastnesses of the.Ka fi re were of two kinds—eitber steep than ~ doubled.. In 1842 it covered an area of 110,000 square - mountain , capped with aendatone, resembling ._ vast,, , ,fortifie : 1 7,• Id th e c ou r s e of the next six years 120,000 square - cations, with huge masses of sandstone rising s everal ,feet the" lied 'been added to it, and it was extended to nearly - froth.. the surface of . the ground,; or deep, narrow, gloonlY, _.27th degree of south latitude. If a line were drawn in • ravines, called kloofs. s ., Both .mountains: and ravines were put that latitude right' across South Africa, from the covered with the. peculiar. bush of. South Africa. In that. l ong, do, the Atlantic Ocean, it wou ld be about 1,000 miles bush, and behind. th e masses of sandstofie,. the Kafirs lurked il, and would constitute about the northern boundary of .and skirmished with impunity—retreating as our troops ad, the Brilith &minions in South Africa. The territory lying vanced—advancingas our .troops retreated. Qin troops could , b o ss.. . t he south of that line mi g ht b e ca ll e d British South. Attica, not occupy these fastnesses, for they could-not live in theme ,„', 4 ,11e Ilite•tellths of it were B r itish dominions, the re- To open roads. in theta., over. the mountains and the klooffS : "unlng - tenth ' was the territory inhabited by our Kafir . would be a task of, immense engineering difficulty, and, would tdetnies and w hi c h was now surroun d e d on a ll s id es b u t cost an immense sum of money both in making and, repair--, tke i . n siatide by ` British dominions . 'I he area of British South - big.. And whee •the road s h a d been made, utilise the, bush. the ca Was' aettooo s quar e miles, about 'the s a m e as that of on both sides were destroyed, the roads would be only narr ow ss _ . 'Austrian empire .'' Its population amounted to about defiles, and the Kafir:lurking iii the bush would shoot with ( c‘ilt 00 persons; of these one - seventh, or about 100,000 were impunity. at our passing, troops. But.. to destroy.- the , bush discolir.°Pean, * i glu , and the greater portion of whom were would be a task of herculean labour, for the bush would not l d'ented ; about 150,30(:t were Hottentots and mongrel' burn. It was composed of plants of so juicy a nature that races;and 'generally dieaffected ; about ' 350,000 were Refire flame would, not communicate froM one . plant to another. and kindred tilbeS most of whom were our avowed enemies ; ' An European could not , make a single step in the bush f ah .. tt the remai n in g 10 0,000 were Zoolabs in Natal, of doubt- without cutting, his way, except in,the paths made by wild or allegiance. In the m id s t of thi s di scon t en t e d, traitorous, beasts. But the Kafiri), with wonderful dexterity and e enstile population, we bad about 10,000 British t roo p s , agility,. c re pt through the bottom of the bush like snakes 0 , Silt* and unaided, were, accOrdi s ng to, Sir Harry Smith, and other reptiles, and none but • Hottentots could follow • l : _taing on a war ever an area or twice the Me atticdestroybush tt must, be • cut down. by s tined Kingdom, with tribes as fierce as the Cireassians or the hand of man, and it must be kept down or it would ; 1 8.etines. He' thought, therefore, the state of South Africa 80011 _spring :up again. To • cut , it down an army .of la dirn.4ticalS andsit 'was no wonder that our military expen- boaters would be requited, and whilst. doing it an army The ur e . on account of it had greatly increased of late years. would be , required toprotect the labourers ; and when dime , ( l it. other Cause of the great increase in our 'military expen- the ground would be, so sterile. and arid that it could not be l on a ': eon aceonnt of South Af r ica had been', the abolition - in - applied to any useful purposes. Therefore, he .thought it s eo . of the old, cheap, and effectual' system of self-protection probable that the. bush of South Africa never woutd, nor - OY t h e colonists. With regard to that system he must ob- .ever, could, be destroyed, and would continue tO,afford hidiog , a o e ur rV c e o t i hat it was similar to that which had been used by places for Kafirs as long_ as Kafirs should exist.. He was, Indians. lii in North America in their conflicts with the afraid thatthe present Kafir, war was• not at an end. He • When the 1 South Africa it had originated with the Dutch. , believed, however, that the commencement of the termiea of•thetolo• D utch and Kafirs first met on the eastern frontier :nation had begun. It was a most important question, what. irresistibl nY t ot the Cape, the superior tattle of the Dutch had should be done : to prevent the recurrence of similar wars? - e . warfare K ati enipted the cupidity of the Kafir—a . petty • (Hear, hear.) He should not discus s that question at pre-. former times. e nsued, like that which bad raged in sent, except , to repeat a warning which he had given the Scotland'. T he 4 li the borders between land and- House four years ago—nateety, that if our beta preten 13 'tub called, had combi ne r" , as the frontier -Dutch • were African policy should be adheted to, there would a regular‘ystem of infor mutual assistance, and formed , ' war at,the end .of every flour or: five years; unless ,' indeed, system, When the einegnar defence, called the commando we were to attempt to prevent a Kafir, wars by :keeping. ; his loaded musket, mountell Boer wa s stolen, he seised a large military force ,permaneetly : stationed in South gether, went off in pursuit _ s is horse, called his friends:to- Africa. •He thought that, under the present system, at himself' with - a stron g . - e tto 4 ; e l f l his property, and righted least 7,000 British troops would. be regtiired to be perma touctillie better ; if he did not h : recovered his , property so • neritly stationed in South. Africa to preaerve peace, and order himself. ln these expeditions the B h ad nobody tnblatne but within the . British dominions-4,000 :- men on the eastern , and' marauding savage with the heasotere..classed the prowling frontier of the colony of the Cape, 1,000 at : Natal, 1,000 bid With equ al zes t. the cattle-stealin g lion an dtY; and shot down - Orange, territory, and 1,000 for a garrison and teserved force African savages, who, like . all other Kafir. The South at . Cape Town. Those 7,00 d men. would cost in effective:, brute force, considered leniency to be w a e 'llges, worshipped military expenditure probably half a millien a , year, on the,,' streilgth---who 'were accctietomed to, slain and cruelty , :average of years. , This was not, an extravagant estiniate their chiefs—hid been appalled by th . ',7, s o . e i ra wholesale by , ~ For the seven years ending 1850 our effective military ,exe, of the Boers die • his vigour and prowess , 10 0 k ed energy penditure .on account of South ;Africa had amounted - to e "int as a su - for being,. and feared more one isi' ouunted uPen 3,334,0004 or about 480,0001. a year; and , the average - With his loaded roer than a score of her Majest , ed Boer number of British troops in South Africa during that period Y 8 beSt d' • coalined `troops. By these means the Boers had defends was 4,800. There could be little doubt that, under the pre-„ . ti lernseives as effectually on the eastern frontier of the C ape • sent system, the military expepditure of this country en ac- Gdottlto e•as their descendants' had lately done in the i count of . South Africa, for the next - period of, seven years Orange tergtory and Natal, and now did under the -tropi c I ilanamely , that ending 1857, would be greater than that for of Capric orn , whence 'they had offered to come to our more etiod ending 1850. Because the present war was a.' as sistance.—.(ll h ) The commando system had con- Nat , formidable one than that 1846 and 1847 t because Hear ear. tinned ed in . full vi our up t o , the year 1833, when •it . , was T a r 's and, the Orange sovereignty, which had . been . ac well on the - v• ein the former • abolished. He g •-- • . ha d w or k ed - ewe's' a e .asserted that itnd,becau b od' • to b • pen , were beinning, ecome expene 1 Whole i n of the ' frontier after the te rmination se t.sere could bon g o doubt that immediately i f protecting the lives and property sinners. ' He found th a t un d er that system our military • a view toe _ n of the last war Sir Harry Sreith, with , force in South Af r i ca h a d been ' steadily and gradually di- military fo rce Y had made too large a reduction ,. in the inished,' and consequently military expenditure had I system there •i n South Africa. Under the , • present oleo. been He found , South Africa ; if w ag this dilemma with regard the steadily and gradually diminished. d ' 'nat . force J °4 mad e t in 1816 . our military force in South Africa had ,mu y with n . too large a reduction in our Yeameted to 4 ,500 men • that in almost every subsequent .1 morel vg were ern e" ott i v iew to the sieving of money, - .1 r down to 1833 it ' had b .. • . een regularly dimini e , t sh d till • [ thee they usually did , to disregard their treaties ti 18a3 • 4. . than your savings w .___ . : and then if war followed, more • ti, t , ,it amounted to 2,000 men In that year our eoec i .. . we soon 3 e . e Milititry -d" * 0001. Since you limn to enforce treaties Pnt, on the other,hand, if th __ . , expen iture had amounted to 100, and prese p eace , - • en It had gone on steadiland rapidly increasing, both I eonstantly maintaM in South A frica rve you must in 5.....! , periods of peace and in periods r - Of the two 1, and incur almost ass war, expenditure. a s t e arge military force r , o aver. J ikarg.Of peace ending •' that under: the ptent syste , no .ll thought, therelore, p. „ ~.. ti e. with' 1834 our effective military ex - ~ p rudent Coloniesshould, after Secretary of State CaCnt re on• account of South Africa bad been 100,0001. I for - the a-Year; on . ~ dertake to preserve peace and ord er TU of the present with 1846 the average of the three years of peace ending ‘l war s. uu . - , than 7,000 British trot ln British South m li ewithwere might per and lastly, on _the ythree times what it had been in 1833; ‘- haps for a :time. •. , . lucky d t i of his Mee short , might get soma , .an ie ending with' .18, average of the two years - of peace ' term - credit to '380,000/. • a ...,.. rthat expenditure had amounted , economist, but P b . l . h I . in all ince i ity e wall d h ec t oo __. a as an yea i or to it had been in 1833.--- (H ea r , nearly four times What Kafir war to his WA , espy. For instance, ,bittl Lultrau costly Grey not . the beginning of last year,ah to Isriods of • war. . Ther hear.) Next, with regard • returned to.effice at s 0 . 1 his administration would any importance in the - interval There ha d been no war of ' accounts for the last year diminution in our military expendit a u v r " aincelB33 there had been "three Kafir wars; 1819 and 1833 ; 'shown a considerable ~ ~ _ w ould is have e ica • but e bequeathed said to have coat 500,000/. • . tbe _ ee r wars; the first was 'on account of South Aft ' f - the resent Kafir war. Th- ere _ 2 .000,000 L ; and we should b e' lucky se cond had cost nearly to his successors the whole 9 adhere to our present. SOuth the expense of the present one. Forth3'°°o9ooo/. covered', fore,if w e were determined to a , minas to pay annuall our. effective . military expenditure, on. e Year of war 1835. Africau policy, we must-make UP , out , EuropeancolOnlit i n Africa, had been returned at 240,000/. t s count of South about Si. ahead for the defence of every ar. - (Hear.) ' _ the two years of war, 1846 and, 1847, it ha d ayerage of South Africa, or about halt a million aye . system of 86 0d/OOL a year, or more than three times what aamounted to • his opinion a great chaege oughtto be made in our . _ to the colonists of in 1835; and during last year it. must have tt . had been . South African policy. We ought.to give, , . 1 test con -IAOO,OOO/., or fully four times what it had .be enamotuated to South Africa the freest institutions and the comp e T • herefore, .since 1833 our peace expenditure. sl, l 1835 ' . as soon trot over their local affairs.--(Cheers.) We . ought, .circumstances tstpenditure, on account of Smith Africa, had eac h o f war . after the termination . of the present war. as t.ta. inereased fourfold, and our last peace expefidit had would permit, to require those colonists to take uppn 13e, are them olceeded. by _fifty per cent. our former war expenitn—d aelves the defence of their frontier against the native races Therefore the year 1833 constituted an epoch in the historre. (Hear, hear) —and finally to reduce, the, reilitary,ferce in of our South. African expenditure., . From : the peace ap t Y South-Africa to be maintained at the expense of this country that:year, our expenditure had gone 'on gradually .diminiah°- to a garrisonait Cape Town, with a proportionate reduption ing— in that year it reached its minimum; , ' thee- it oar military expenlititie.—(Hear, hear.) - bed. , 511344 it - • sone on 'steadily and rapidlYincreasing, and would - Ur. HUME asked' whether the present .vote was for the ncreaee : ii , the present system were adhered to. -1n183; a _ whole year or only a portion of the year; and whether. any greatehangewas made in our South African r Th Id policy.. icy s eo , - accounts had been received from the Cape to enable the Go °lleaPsandeffectual syste m Vet had b e e of self- protection by the colonists , nment to judge of the probable total expense? , • .• • • for it n abolished; and the Colonial-office had substituted ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It was - an . the system of protecting the f • b y • m ade estimate of the expense of the Kafir 2 - h nit .ravager, and enforced by fr ont ier treat ie s M Marsh. , - treat* Re had tls t . Ore icalty...t British troops. By those "--`'". With regard to future prospects, •it was altogether -Fit4Pfpined the Smith African ' iMpee . aible for hint , to say What they Ivere at , present; he ' -• s .. . - . . . F. . • - s '; :-: i '' t - iS: i'.+ . . . ~ . should - be better able to_da so, however, On the arrival-of the ' -text maiL a , . , . ~ ; Mr. GLADSTONE hoped the Committee would mot rashly infer from 'What the. Chancellor. • of the .Exchequerhad•said a no doubt, in parfect . correctness, that, the , vote now proposed 'of, 480,0994, together w ith therote- a which was taken last year of : 30000a, was anything like the total exp,enditurta .On the contrary, these votes represented only the extra ex" • pease of the, War, ,or rather only, apart of the extra expense Oahe War. ' But• the figures And the military.expenaiture in this matter were not the entire or worst part of the evil, • though, the, figures themselves were almost frightful and in- j 'Credible.. The tales of the frontier. pelicy at:the Cape, and of the loss brought, on this country in connexion with it,. 'would be regarded by those who came after us in future. ages. 'tie most fabulous.—(Hear, hear,)a It , would appear ex traordinary, that . a 'country .like . this should have • gene hunting ` to th at very ends of, the earth, to ; find the means and ppportunities of squandering. the. treasure . and . _the liVes .of ' ats ~subjects„ , . and that for, no conceivable purpose or policy—not to found colonies or ex tend theni with greater effect than it might have done under a different system, but .on the contrary, to deprive them of `the opportunity of learning all the. lessons of freedom, of self-reliance and of iiiaepenclence, which alone could be the basis of their soaial'greatness, and which aloue could assure either the duratio n or the utility of their connexion with , this country. The ' Cotnmittee was indebted to; Sir W. Molesworth on this Oceasiop, as on many former ones, for having laid before it,in a form the most luminaus, and, with a diligence the most praiseworthy, many of the facts which , bore upon this interesting and most painful question- It would he. quite unnecessary, therefore, for him (Mr. Glad etone)an go over ground; which had alreadv been so ably, troddetaby his lion. Friend. ' There was, indeed a at abun a dant scope for ' arithanetical calculations and comparisons, . Whichineoana degree might bring home to the popular mind, of this country the eilermoas_abaurdities that .we were,per- petrating in Southert Africaa-aaafor instance, when we told them that. the Oovernment'of South Africa-7not in one year, or . in tWp, but habititafly and with every. promise of ,'perma- nence—Cost os infinitely more.per head. than the government Or. Great Britait and Ireland, they began. to think it strange. Bat look at the matter' in,. another aspect, And inquire what Were"those .prOyinces in - Sputa . Africa, the _contigaity of which to the laafirs had brought all, this, expense iippn. us; , they would find . that, according to returns which were, then upon the table of the House, 5,500 was athe entire white • population of the provinCe - of Alpert and 'Victoria, and the: tearitoryknown as British..Xefraria.', And if ;they bought up this population _ten times trier, and transported them in . Carriages and four - keen the provinces they ; now, inhabited .to a positfon'af security, the expense of so doing.-would not amount to one-half or aone-fourth . patt of that which they were expending in ,the 'Kafir mar. . And for. what conceivahle'paneet a He was not arguing the pecuniary view of the question, to i n d uce" the Committee,, on account of pe . cutlery losses merely; to forego the con f erring some great benefit upon 'Africa ; ,on the. contrary, the system they were now ptrsuing conferred on Africa no benefit whatever, • for it insured the reentretce of aheaes Itaffir . wars. with a regularity that, antabeemning:abselately, astonishing. What then was the course which the Parliament and the Goverta Ment at home shenild pitraue ? lie feltahat it. was entirely. 'needless on this - occasion. to ,r e v ive oldaquarrels. . They were not discuesitig in' particular, the conduct ,of this or : .that governor, ' or . ,of this . or that minister—ex cept that,' in rustic's . 'to Sir Hairy' Smith a he must say, With his 'Hop. Friend Oir.W, Molesworth), that he was not aware of • any valid grounds of censure upon - his Military - character.777(Oheers.) He .(Mra Gladstone), set aside all retrospect. of :a ,recranivatory nature, but be did hope that `he might be permitted now again to pronounce In this House words siniilar. to those. which he had taken . . the liberty of using on a fernier occasion ; for when the last `aaafir war was, about - being hrought to a termination, and. they bad one of those votes proposed to ,them, he folloWed the atiaht. Hen. Gentle Man the Member for NorthaMptot ( air. V. •'Smith) in beseeching and entreating. Parliament to proceed' , seriously to consider • the ' question ,of our frontier policy, and of _ our colonial, policy. ; it geteral at the Cape, at one. of .thos e golden, opportunities when the public Mind was smarting ,under the sufferings that hid been ',entailed by, O ur past proceeding s , an d . su bj ects , which were connecte d ` with the welfare of .a remote de pendency were no tenger, dry or .uninteresting ,to it. 1 There was one passed' in a dispatch addressed. by the late Secretary.for the .Colonies to the.' Gallant:Officer who had ' gone outao assume the government of the Cape, to which he (Mr. Gladstone) could not help referringat the present moment, because it was a passage which had the character of being eminently prospectrie. He w o uld. no t answer f or precise accuracy in quoting'g . the .terms used ;„ hilt he thought that General Catkin had been instructed in the first instance to address himself to the conclnsion of the war, that he had been instructed to.. expedite the ; . operation of the constitution; and that he had been instructed, lastly, Ito consider filly the qnestion of . the frontier policy, and to make a report upon that question, to be submitted to the British Gavernment , 'and ' Parliament. Now to. him - (Mi. Gladstone) the prospect thus opened was by no means satisfactory. Ile .. was 'perfectly convinced , that. debates in this country between one syst em, pa frontier policy and, .another were, in the main,. idle, 'futile,, and Mischievous in, their results. They would proceed upon the false assumption that the regulation of the relations between our European settlers and those barharens natives of Southern Africa were matters to be settled only by gentlemen sitting here in, London.•. They . alio proceeded on the false principle that the moving power of the operations in our South African policy was in. this country, and not on theasPet, 'and that the respontibility for every 'depreditieaeonaniitted on the- frOntier rested on that abase, and not ` Olathe inhabitants of tee frontier itself. It was not in the present century that that question had to . be'cotaidered for the, first ,time--a(Hear,,hear) 7 ,they;were, :not Witheut the light and teaching of experience, althoagh ; 'they had; unfortunately choSen to re j ec t . them. ' Their co lonists In North America' had had aborigines .to deal with, andhad they troubled the mother country for armaments and votelfor half-millions and millions of money, and for 'the fives and blood of their . gallant men, in order to obtain a defence against the barbarians on their frontier? No; they had known well how to defend themselves and they had at the same time regulated their affairs infinitely better than they could have been regulated by this country, even though we had expended all our national resources in the un dertaking. He wished, therefore, to avail himself of that op portunity of entering - his respectful protest against the funda mental principle of the policy that appeared to him to be in volved in the instructions to General Cathcart. He said that it was not for the Government and the Parliament in this country to devise a new system of frontier policy ; and he was amazed that a . nobleman of great ability, who had had long experience as a Secretary of State; should have stated gravely that he was convinced the time had come to consider the necessity of some change in our frontier policy. why, they had been consid ering little else in our frottier policy tor , the last 25 years; , and . every change seemed only to have :`made Matters Worse than they 'hid been before. They had changed, it already, and they were, prop os i ng t o ' Change it ag a in • just as a skit man in his b e d, wear y o f lying On one side, thought it better to turn on the other, not ; becanais belied any hope of :relief, biit because. the excessive weariness and, disgpst: created by his position rendered him wretched and imaatient. 't, them not ,again enter on the Tuestion of changing theirfrontieapplicy in a spirit like that. hey lied aleeady . seen that hetevolence, ingenuity,., and ,courage had been exerted it that matter to the, utmost, and had been exerted in vain ; and the result was,,that they had . worse prospects before them' that - at any fornier period, unless they, changed their wbole method if proceeding.; .If he as, right, W it was to the colonists themselves they Should look for the regulation,ef their frontier relatiops.--(Flear.) And he, should clad ; that, in that case, they should look, to the polo-, nista also for the deterMination of whet that frontier was to be"; . they should'; ;n9t. send • ,out gentlemen from .thie ' country,, ; with commissions and with treaties, .to disport. themselaes in the wilds of Africa,,lay adding :; once a week Or once a fortnight some district once or ; twice as large as Great Britain to the domiticins of the Cape.. Whatever Was•doee there . should be done under the responsibility of _. representative institutions; . and they might rely upon. it that if they gave to the colonists the boon. of local liberty—subject; of course', to the maintenance 'of,imperial' unita—withotit • stint or ; limitation, they would 'find no disposition. to , grudge the ' sacrifices and, the, efforts necessary for the , self-defence, of the colonists:aa (Hear, : hear.) He was not so visionary, as to say that they; • could expect at 'once. tcaptit an end to . our Military establish-. tents: on the frontier. What he wanted was to see the. centre of reaponSibility and eaten, Which had been wrongly placed in this country. by . a, modern and vicious' policy, in despite of 'ancient and _better example—what he wanted was to see the centre of responsibility carried back to the place froth whieh it ought never to have been removed.— (Hear, hear.) liatatitei to, see the the colonial community in full recognition ' of the prinCiple that with themselves lay the first ditty anclaespoesibility of their own defence. • .11e was conainced that in. Urging that view lie 'was urging that for whiCh they would tbepaselVes be the most. ready to ctin tend. ' Parliament 'and- the Gpvernmint had only to. give them the freedom which; the Ainerieinti colonists had enjoyed ; Nand With the enjoyment of that - freedom they would, he felt persuaded,cheerfully accept the burden of its responsibilities. What was the duty which the 'British' Government and ; Legislature owed to them? , Their. first 'duty was to protect them against 'those enemies, if there should be such, with . whom ' they could not themselves cope—againat ' civilised 'powers, if any attack, which he did. not see any reason to apprehend, should be direeted'againat them by those powers. say ; would go further, and , that we should not grudge our money in the first instance, „but that Wealiduld coutinue to assist them liberally, ' until they should be . Completely ex tricated , from `a vicious - sYstem.—(Llear a heir.) . lie was cure that - the Hen.' Member ' for Montrose -,Careftil; and justly, careful, as he Was, for the economical" expenditureof the public funds— i would feel that we could not in a moment cure the consequences of a - policy pUrsued duringi long series of years. ' In , his (Mr. Gladstone's) opinion, no Oct betty 'eotild be ,more 'false .; than to put an end suddenly, our Military expenditure' in Southern Africa. What be recommended was a chafige in the ; ,eentre of Teapot inbility. Let' that question: `be Made ; a ealonial Ties : tion a let it be, treated as a local question, anti let it fill within a the sphere of local liberties ' and local re- sponsibilities, . :Surely that was no unreasonable demand. Surely it was not a question of British, or imperial interest whether or not,the, frontier of the Cape coloty should be, at the Great fish" River, or the Orange River, or the Kei. Those Were'rnatters, if ' there were any, which thecolanists should be perniittad to consider for themselvea ; 'and if they weee alldwed to consider`thein, theiaweald glidlY Undertake —and they taid,alrectili I wade many. declarations to that. effect,- to , discharge the duties Which belonged' to the condi tion of freecnen„Xlitarlause .reight rely upon, it that in ,doing everything they could to' foster that spirit of freedom aim,. Self-re fiance, they would, on the one hand, be giving the meat poweafol stimnlus to the growth bathe - colony and , the development 'of its prosperity—a fataindie pOwerful sti mulus than they could give by pouring out their treasures .over the sands of Africa ;. while they would, on:the other hand,he was donvinceda by, contributing , to link with the utmost possible firuiness the bonds of attachment which connected that colony with ,England,--(lleara hear.) . . • . Lind J. RUSSELL said.he. had. listenectattentiiely to the flight Hon: Gentleman, with a hope . that he would have. fur pishad th em With some gelation. of that Ver'ydifficult problem —the government of . Southern Afriect Bat a able and elo tiepposei ' was anent aa the speech of the Right lien. Gentleman undoubt reidale of the . • ;P L Y: w as, he (Lord a. - Resiell), confessed that he had P, c _ala'ad from it no ueiv light with respect to the best :45;3- fir t c u ptuey to be adopted in that etalony,, The question, which.hed net that which the Right Hon. Gentleman ,h:4d g e on l e t oltf ro oqaestion to be discussed' at; present, in the j la R ei d century, was tot such a pestion .as that i. It m oe North America in the aatii.-a(" Heir, bear " tioral her .for. Shifßeld aa :?ack.) .The Hon; and Learned Mein- doubt m Etnisgaita„up:Stiotiothmat country t ut l r e y t first persons who had them lob , k i:it wha tbe e n done in North America. The -sometimes consisting 'of the owners 'vessels, sometimes consisting' : of adventurers' and crews of Merchant . ott With some 'commissio n a ro i a _wild had 'gone . , a aa ,_ the Crown, and sometimes of individuals sugi%eu it expeditione partaking. rather of tore of the 'mt.had buccaneering • or military sOns fouttled the'Y enterprises-' t h os e - per, ,their" own , i of ' the Oast, 'and Settlements' ca some 'par ~,. _ l __ Z , :41 tvap 'or three ' s e, settiement 3 . were. swe p t years . tilt) been 'engaged i n , ahein,hi away, and - those who had t been mardered hy: the savages ino g Thoin 'they a ti ad . " • 't of these transa • fixed '-• their atone reached this abodes. ' But no account . _ , . . ' d ,Of perhaps two or three y - - Country for _p a perm _ , . ht under any ears, and the kno4ladge Of theth inlg i .. or . o, p o t circ umstances haVe few 0 - 4 ' ' 1 b ee ta, ; tottr i ned tq ,a LONDON, . . - this country - had-n o t then en j o y e d its present rapid and .e/ts., - lensive means of communication.' But other adventurers bld g • gone 'out end taken • the' place of those who' had disapperireds Sand the settlers having gradually become atronger, had; at length; -been - ablasnot Only to repel the savages but to exter minate them - . For the races thus destroyed there had been -little; sympathy felt In this country ; and; indeed, their fate was tea generally einknownas the fate of our'own early ad-; venturers: 'There was no; resernblerice between that case and the':case . of Our South African frontier, or even the case of the' present - frontier of- th e Milted' Stites? What' hid' happened during this very - year in the United States? Why; it appears from some of those reports which were presented to Congress. by the different Ministers' Of that country, and more - especially 'from the ' report of the Secretary at War, • that there had been carried on a frontier War against the: barbarous Lichens by the regular troops of the United states; that the expense of 'conveying those troops froth one part et •the frontier had of late been enormouslyincreased, and that the charges,incurred in that way by-the Central Government •of the - :United States had amounted to somewhere abOut .700,000/S' more - than= the charge incurred in the preceding year.—( Hear hear.) That was an expense which fell, not On any individual state, but on the central' GoVernment of the .country,•which would not permit its 'citizens to be overrun .or destroyed by th e I n di ane.—( H ear Africa .the difficulties of our position had, hear.) In South been greatl y aggra vated by the circumstances under-which - nre had undertaken to colonize that country.s , iWe had ehoSett in the year "1819 to say that we would pl ant a settlement i n S out h Africa tar heyondthe metropolis Of t he Coleny; and 'a c onsiderable giant had been mad e b y that House for t h e ' parries ( ' Of carrying out; that project.' ' Nows;that was not our ancient policy in North Am er i c a —if policy th a t cou ld b e c elled ! ' • which: lutdbeen :in reality the neglect • and ' abandonment of '• ,an policy..-(Hear, hear.) If our settlers had been' attacked, on the frontiers of South Africa, and if women and children had been-murdered there,. would it he quite satisfactory' to that House; after we had sent, out the colonists, that they should have been ; left to their 'fate? - 'Different Governinents and different Secretaries of State --Lord Stanley at one time; ; Lord ,Gleneig at another, and Lord Grey ;at -another-e had ' acted on., the belief • that the lives of our own .' citi zens whom we had sent o ut to South , Africa could z oo n t gl . a f a e d r . m_ ' T a her m e a w tt a e a r a of n o t h ' indifferenceevent l .] ic l t h o m t i h g e h t 'Pe h o a p v l e e 6 c o - f - corred ; and that. was, that the colonists might have plun elered or unjustly attacked the natives. But even that would not have been borne by the • people of *this' countrfor by their>representatives. , In the year 1835, when it had been tbought,that some injustice had been !shown to the' abori- . ;glues; that House bad interfered for their;protections.+ - (H ear, hear.),.. They had : thus been led, st e p b y' step , to the adoption, of a system whichhe admitted could not be c e r ried on to its'' present extent—namely,. they had s a id o n th e one handthat they : would-not allow ;British colonists to be murdered , ' while. they, said: on. the other ha n d t h at th e y w o u ld not allow any injustice to be done to the natives — and More thah that, they would not allow the :s ava g es • to- mur der' one - another.- s ( Hear.) .That was, at, all events; a very honour able feeling on the part of this country; and it was eertainly .a. • very different one from that which h a d preiailed a few' centuries ago. But 'the question at - preient erases hove are we to deal with the future government of the colony ?Upon Upon ' that question the Right Hon. Gentleman had laid that it was' ,a great fault on the part'of 'Lord Grey to have told , General Cathcart that he ought to make a report to ' the Government at home. -.But. he (Lord J. Russell) confessed that 'he quite concurred in that proceeding, and before General Cathcart bad left this country.he had had a . long> interview with hint, and -bad told . the ; Gallant General; that in dealing with .the ,policy to be pursued hereafter much might depend' on .the judgment which he would form . s. npou the subject. It was therefore desirable, in his opinion, that General Cath cart should make known the Conclusions at which he - might : have arrived in the mattee. The great difficulty of the- case arose from the fact that we. had in the colony but •a very smalllarge native white p a p p o a p l u a population, tion ' , surrounded by a comparatively ; so 'that there h a d b ee n no i n e an s s such as had existed in. North Ainericarof outnurnbering the natives. The different Governor's of the colony= Sir B. D'Urben, Sir P. Maitland, Sir H.' Pottinger, ' and Sir H. Smith, ; ,- : had endeavoured, one after another, to supply that' . ' - want of an ove-whelming .white : population , by military frontiers and military defences. Bat the establishment of 'a military: ;frontier . shad - necessarily entailed enormous expense, and difficulty, . ;and loss of life; among our troops. With regard - to the future policy to be pursued in the co lony, .we had , a.• problem ; of the utmost difficulty to solve:. He did not ; think it would be satisfactory tothis country on the one ,hand that' we should withdraw ourstroops, and that the colonists should be left without any sufficient protection. He • believed that - such a comae 'would bring dis able presage for the . future maintenance of the British em honour on the British name, and audit would/belt lament' able hear.) But, on the ' other hand, he; thought' that we could not continue to maintainAuf immense frontier, which was, ,in fact, ,no use to this country--( Hear, hear).- , - by a mere military force. They would be obliged to adopt, a policy between these two courses. He ' thought that such a policy might be established, and he should -say that some 4,000 men might be ; sufficient for many years for the Cape. Undenbtedly the question of self-government in the colony was one of immense - importance: There -had - not been, of late years, any effort made to give thesafree institutions to that colony. He regretted that a misunderstanding arose in which the. late GOvernment thought they were in the right, ,as. doubtless,' ;also did the . representatives of the colonists, : and which misunderstanding prevented' the es tablishment of free - representative , institutions in that -colony yin the year ,1850 or 1851. He' believed that other wise the Cape colonists might now be in possession of these institutions. . Having obtained such,: he be• lieved they would' conduct them in a different spirit' from .that. which they ;heard mentioned' to-night of- the loniens.- , -(Hear, hear.) , He believed the Dutch as well as. the English Colonists-. understood the working of free insti tutious; ; and that when the Constitution was in operation the representatives would- be guided by the 'wishes and opinions of the colonists themselves.—(llear, hear.) ' He (Lord John Russell) could not conclude without saying ;a few words in reference to Sir Harry Smith. , As regarded his high mili tary character and reputation nothing had occurred to im pair it.—(Cries of " Hear, near.) He should be sorry, in ieed, if a reputation so briLs - -stsand confirmed by the repre sentations of his gallant fellowstoldierssehould to /injured by what hail taken place —(gear, hear;} —ant '1.2..0...ranted not Sir Harry Smith enjoyed the favour and confidence of his fellow-countrymen of all classes.—(Hear, hear.) Sir J. PAKINGTO ST had listened to the speeches of the several Hon. Members who had addressed the House on this important subject, not alone because of the-ability of those addresses, but also of the interest whiph . attached to the subject. The Iron s I3aronet the Member for Southwark Hon. Gentleman the 'Alemb: er fO r th e ki n i ver sitY always spoke .With a bili ty on this. subject; and the right had' also delivered a s pe ec h in much of which. he' (Sir J. Pakington) entirely c oncurre d : - However,-he should add that,., after listening to th ese speechess he hacl.heard. nothing : of Oxford to affect the'intebtion:Of the qiiestion raised by Hon. Gen' , tlemen - al to what was to hi ine fitture policy of the Govere pens . with respect to, th e f uture, b oundar i es o f the Cape: That . was a question of great difficulty, which difficulty was much increased by late events; and it - was a question "on:: which it was the first duty of. aGoierninent to exercise the . great*. care and - elidtroti before committing themselves to observe- that, when seeki ng a vote o f supp l y on ac count , of , tphleidsgLorr war, nothing principles of policy:- (Hears hear. ) H e m ight could be more natural than that a discussion of this kind s h ou ld arise. Y et, at t h e same time, he should Say hethought it .was somewhat premature.-- (Heaii hear.,) It had been impresieden her Majesty's fit nisters thet,t4g,,shoilld give free institution to...the Cape, and beStoir on; them freedom, end then to leave them to the control of themselves.' NOw. with regard to .conterring the boon' of freedom on the Cape, he might ob- . serve it had been already dohe, though, in his opinion, some what too tardily.—(Hear.) His - (Sk "J . : - Pakington's) pre decessor bad sent out, to_ the Cape a form ' of constitution which was at present under consideratien at the Cape, and ' since he (Sir J. Paki ngton).eathe into office .he had done all in his power to facilitate the . consideration of_ these . ordi hances with ayiew that no time should be • lost in putting th'em in operation.—(Hear, hear.) But when they caine to consider the future policy which the Government was to ex ercise with regard to the Cape, h e should say the question Was exceedingly complicated. - (Hear, - hear.) No person could deny that great disaffection hid existed in that colony in reference to British rule. 'The slavers' qtiestien was one cause ; the struggle with regard to the admission of convicts was another; and the delay of granting the boon of freedom had been the third cause. It was therefore the duty of Go= verpment to see tbat no danger ehOuld be . incurred by the , too - recipitate arrival at a decision:—(Hean'hear.) lie did not wish to • attribute blame to any quarter; but he.should say that a great extent of t err i tory had been a dd e d by the i late Administration. Neither had he any desire to say, anything urinteourable of Sir • Harry Smith, inas- , much as he had listened with pleasure to' the manner in >which his high militarY ' merits bad been spoken ,of that , night:—(Hear, hear-) The last dispatches received from the. Cape went far to show that Sir H arry S m ith was still sert s iog his ' coUntry with the same vigour as, was displayed by hhn on the'PlainS of India.(Loud cheers)—and he fully ex pected before lolig to.hear that, riot' only were the evils of the war at an end, hitt also, that before his return, Sirflarry. Smith would nayeaeliieved the great object of his command. -(Cheers.)' Indeed he (Sir e ---- rakingtoe) knew of no in- telligence that Would be more' acceptable to him, or, he be- • lieved, to the public in general. But - with all these feelings deep` i n his mind; he could not fail to ' recollect that it had been 'under the Administration of Sir Harry Smith that great and ,rapid accessions had been made to the possessors of Great Britain; end which accessions had been the chief means -of involving this country in the late Kafir war.-(Flear, hear.) Sir Harry Smith arrived at the Cape in December, JBl7, 1 - lo•was not more than a fortnight .there, when he wrote hOme `to say that he had ext e n ded the ' English bouti-' dary by. some 70,000 square miles; and in the following February—three Months from his arrival--he wrote to say he had added also the Orange Liver sovereignty, " It hid been asserted bf the Noble Lord opposite ' - (Lord ' J. RusSell) that, , Sir B.,VUrbatilad also that tendency -o increase territory. Now, in 183, the question of whether or not Kafimria was to be added, to the - British dominions was at issue;_ and on that occasion Lord Glenelg refused to g'ive - his Sanction to the ,project.-(Hear, hear.) lioweve.r, Lord Grey did give his sanction to every one Othe additions made by Harry Saab. The dispatch of Lord.. Glenelg i n 1835 contained the' ollOwing :—" The claint_net. sovereignty over the new ,provinces, beonded ' by the .n. i of and the Kei, must :.be'' renouixed: - The territory 0 the - x .a 6,,„. , .,,. _ n3 . .. ware, is fertile and salubrions, contrip.ted „wi t h''' A a our sterility of position. But the great evil, .!,3 the magnitude, and cense- ' ' ' bouridines, and quent extent of its .. the certainty of our ' • to contact with tribes' ;:being brought in numerous . and war; like"—(Hear, hear.) different no d alefiel 'was the - policy of Lord,' Grey—( Hear, hear)s-Ler , ,g , Also added:—" The ' restitution of invaded' rights would involve injuries more formidable than any they , could rerhsd y. ,, ',I et, - no liter than September - last, Lord . (Trey, notwithatanding his pre . tension, wrote a vious sanction 'of extension, s dispat c h . • • intructing Oran that the 'kingdom of the. _ e range . o overeignty should be . revoked . , and that it should b i e now criaeouencelabandOned —(Hear, hear.) They were hich were awaitin g the arrival of sdispatches from the Cape, .which who, to contain Iv toners, se the report of the Commis, their e' by ' desire of the Government, were addressing. _attention to the subject. . tances that her xr t , , ~-. . It was under these circumstances . jesry s Minis thensselVes ters were called upon to address to this most iin-• of portant - and most difficult task . ~extricating the country which it h -.. front the embarrassments in , , had . been involved.— t• Agreeable to the, present Government if ' It wenlabe mos • s they Ceuld 'non% 'take that . most popilia the Au'ea' course of saying they Were resolved' to' thrthv t h e c'n to the colonists - themselVeS; but he Was ithopes country, world appre-. were more . ' ciate the ceutee that they . .disposed .to uetion of take— namely;'- to say that it was a q a . a .. y extraordinary diffi= cnlty, that they had to repent hSt decision to act, but Would now give all 'the attention in their best attention oP°7r -to the sub ject. ' He could Promise the were bound to wait, her Majesty's Ministers to the subject. He felt they we they .expected, bu not 'only for the information t also for the the result of Completion of that war, and .. those free rem . . . •is they were going to confer;. and , sentative institutions which .. . d • • l' het.' d. • h would be able with Ile care and - • Caution nste t ey and safety othat ' to.bestow the blessings of freedom...i, . ~ n colony withoutln the least impairing ,the di e . gutty , or honour of the Crowia.-(Cheers-) '' that the R* Mr. VOEBUCK begged to say t . e ight Ilon.,Gen- . . House did sot tienian who last addressed the . - understand the question.- (Laughter.) These Wala more, behind_ the curtain, tbaa had been referred to 11112, or by any other Hon. Geri tlelnitli whit 'addressed the 1101180. in. the cou rse o f Pit. i EVENING-v APRIL i 6, 1852. debate, namely, the feeling of this country. It was clear that British co l o ni s ts, by their sunetior Could successfully resist barbarous tribes, Mit for 'that purpose they ' should be alloWed t 6 act for themselves. This country had' not allowed the colonies to act for themselves. There was . a place in this country called "Exeter which repre Stinted a most respectable, but -most • mistaken feeling. Now, Exeter Hall said ", we had no right to take • that territory, because it was contrary to morality to do , so." He tasked the Right ,Hon... Secretary for• the Colonies if, ha.. `Was prepared to maintain ear coloinsts in Africa? If they were to be maintained, it must be against the aborigines, and the best mode of doing so would be by giving the colonistis the power of• Self-government. But they might rest assured, If -they gave the colonists power to maintain their dominion in the countryin which they had been planted, the result would be th,e natives would be exterminated.— (Hear.) It Iva§ a lamentable consequence, no doubt, but it was one from which history showed there' was 'rib escape. The black man would. disappear before tbe white man. There were, however, compensating circumstances. Africa was now to a great extent like America when discovered by Columbus, but Africk colonised by a European race would' becomewhat 'America now was. The first step was a painful one, atid Would be prodective of much cruelty and immorality; but the result would be the planting of a, population far more moral, and far more' capable of spreading civilization and Christianity over the wild regions of South Africa The pecTle of this country ,could not bear that the'colonists should re main in Africa at the expense of. England. This country might defend tLen - against internal foes, but the colonists , must be left . todefend themselves against internal aggression. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that he was about to give the colonists'the power of governing themselves. 'rhe people 'of England must decide whether the colony was to be main tained, but if they decided that it should be retained, they would" Might rest asaured that it be at the expense of the African community, and that no poiver of theirs would pre vent the extermination of the African race., (Hear.) Mr.' ADDERLEY, did not think that any consequence such as that alluded to - by the Hon'. and Learned Member 'for Sheffield would follow the granting of self-Overnmeut to the colonists at the Cape. The . Right Hon. Gentleman bad stated that the question' was one which ought to be dealt with cautiously, and with care, and delay. He admit ted that it should be dealt with cautiohsTy-and with ,care— and with delay also if delay - Were possible. Much would de pend on the dispatch which the Right Hon. Gentleman in tended to send otit, and 'even 'the not sentling-itthe -silence of the right Hon. Gentlemati—_would lead the colonists to form- an opinion of the - futilre policy — of this GOvernthent towards - thein:' 'He was glad to hear the expressions used by the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London with reference to the conduct of Sir'ff. Smith. Those expressions of the opinion'of the 'Noble Lard were,' like himself; noble and generous. Whatever Might hive been the faults of Sir, H. Smith - in his civil government, he' thoUght nothing in his conduct could justify the dispatch Earl Grey 'had sent out to recall hint. The Noble Lord' had- taken-credit to - the late Government fbr conceding a Constitution to the Cape. He believed the- Noble Lord had - done what' he -- could to forward the granting of that Constitution • but he thonght the Noble Lord had not taken,sufficient 'pfecaution to pre vent the measure being .frustrated. 'ale was firmly con vinced that if the colonists obtasned self-government they Would not give up one inch of their territories, - and that the' result would be the formation of 'a British colony in those territories. With regard to the present vote, the only fault he found with it was that it was too stnall. It was impossi ble tfor any one, to' suppose 'that 480,0001 • rep res e n t e d th e whole expense incurred during the last year for the Kafir War. -Whatever the expense might amount tOthis country must ray lit, and he saw no reason why th e rea l amount ' . should not be stated. She - amount, whatever it might be had been incurred by our own Minister.' It was the penalty we, had to pay for one — an d he feared it wet not the only one f Lord Grey's' e x pe r iments in colonial rule.—(Hear.) The great question for consideration was how to preyent the recurrence of so expensive a war. •• He had great con fidence inthe present Administration ; - and he had reason to believe, from what he had heard, that the Ri g ht Hon: Secretary for the Colonies would give satisfaction to the colonists, A 3 he had given satisfaction to those interested in. the - colony at home, - if lie immediately p rom ulgated the promised constitution. He'_ trusted by the time the next ' news arrived from the Cape that the war would be over. He hoped it would not be the sham submission of'which they had received information by the last mail, because they had had , experience that those submissions were only temporary, and were the result of successes by the 'British forces. Sir Harry Smith had now, for the first time, a snfficient force with him, and he felt satisfied that that able and gallant officer would not fall under the unjust 'censures that had' been cast upon him. The. Hon. Gentleman, then referred to the account given of the termination of a former Kafir war, in 1835, to show that the submissionof the chiefs could not be relied upon, but which was by no means a real settleme n t of the differ ences between the Kafirs and the colonists. The great difficulty was, to know how to make such' arrangeinents for the protection of the frontier and 'the future amicable rela tions with the chiefs as would ensure permanent peace to the colonists. .If the matter was. left tO the inhabitants of the Cape, they were both ready and willing to undertake the maintenance of their own territory. He was satisfied if that Was dope they would have as strong, add 'as permanent, and as, peaceful a colony as England possessedin any part of the world. • Colonel THOMPSON said that the great question, which appeared to have been lost sight of, was how had this war begun P. Did it begin by - a bull or two goats ?- Did it- not rather commence with such conduct al had brought forward a Gesler, and had lost Austria some of herfairest provinces,? ' 'Was it not a fact that it rose from an English ruler desiring literally to set his foot upon the neck-of a Kafir chief ? It was more than human nature could endure, and he was not Surprised that some of their own countrymen actually prayed for defeat upon their country's arms. He believed the Anglo-Saxons thought they had a right to tyrannise over and oppress all other nations. What nation was there that did not hate them.—(Laughter.) •The lonians hated them— the Kafirs hated them—and why? Because the depository of power in the colony chose to set up these differences of race against which: the Kafirs revolted. For this miscon duct—for this , injustice, they were now, in addition to large sums previously voted, called upon to pay 400,0001., . together with the loss of oonfidoneo and popularity among the natives. He thought they were bound to mark their sense of votes like the present by voting against them. Mr. F. PEEL was not desirous of prolonging the debate, but he felt that he owed it to the Noble Lord (Earl Grey), under, whom he had the homer to serve, to make a few observations in reference to what had fallen from the Honourable Member for Staf fordshire. The House would remember that that lion. Member had placed a notice upon the paper reflecting severely upon the conduct of Lord Grey. and imputing to him everything that was mean, and base, and injurious; alleging that he was desirous of shuffling from himself to the . officers employed the responsibility of the situation of affairs at the Cape, which he alleged resulted from. the mismanagement and mal-administration of that Noble Lord. It might7aleo be remembered that public papers and elsewhere, where no answer could be given, those attacks and misrepresentations were , perseveringly indulged in. Whenever the affairs of the Cape were introduced the name of Lord Grey was always brought forward, - and no pains spared to• exhibit his conduct in the most unfavourable light. He begged to say that in any place where the op portunity could -be afforded him, if the Hon. Member fur Staffordshire. or any other. Ron. Member brought forward a motion on the subject) he (Ur. Peel) should be prepared to defend it, and particularly, with reference to that dispatch to which so much allusion had been made, and he trusted he should be able to substantiate every word and every statement contained in it. But he understood the object of this discussion was different. It was said that so long as Parliament undertook the management of the affairs at the Cape so long would they have a return of those harassing and devastating wars, tea costly and so inglorious to the Bri tish arms. Now that there was a prospect of its termination it was suggested that they ought to transfer to the colonists the management of their own affairs. He thought it was quite premature to lay down, any course of policy, and con tended that the course adopted by the late Government was that which was the most advisable. .They had sent out as sistant commissioners, and it was.intended to have submitted their rePort and suggestions to-. the consideration of Parlia ment. He admitted that largelracts of country had been added to the Cape, and the most of those additions had been, made during the administration of Earl Grey. lie was pre pared to show that these acquisitions were made in the in terests of the colonists; and as to their policy on the eastern frontier, that it was undertaken for the protection of the lives of the colonists.: With regard to the statement as' to political ghanges, by the establishment of a new Parliament, he believed Lord Grey and the late Government were zea lously desirous of, establishing a representative government at the Cape, but these delays had arisen from that party of which the lion.,Gentleman opposite was a member, who had timed their opposition so well as to prevent the good inten tentions of Lord Grey from being carried into effect. Mr. DRUMMOND regretted the Hon. Gentleinan oppo site had not brought forward his motion, of • which he had given notice., He did not think the change in Go vernment was . a fair reason , why that motion should he postponed. He rose to do a - signal act of justice towards Sir H. Smith. If the Noble Lord (Lord •Grey) had chosen to object to Sir H. Smith's - policy, It was open to the 'Noble Lord to recal him • but when , the Noble Lord went beyond that, and pretended ,to censure Sir IL. Smith's military--ope rations—(No,_no)—he asserted that Lord Grey's dispatch did• censure Sir fi. Smith's military operations—who, he asked, was that gentleman who presumed • to offer those comments on Sir H. Smith? _where was - hie experience, his military education ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers .) And hen, in contradiction to this, be had the opinion of the Duke of Wellington in favour of Sir IL Smith and in censure of the dispatch, he thought that was a sufficient vindication of Sir H. Smith's military.reputation. lie pronounced the dispatch of Lord Grey a shame.—(Hear, , hear.) He had never given a factious vote. When he recollected the dirty Ceylon busi , - ness he felt convinced had Sir H. Smith been a Lord of the Bedchamber, or the relation of a Cabinet Minister, the dis patch of' Lord Grey would never have been written—•(Hear, hear) --and what was - more, the unmanly act of -throwing down the dispatch on the table of that House beforethe chit- Xacter of Sir H. Smith could be vindicated, would not have occurred. He looked upon it as a very dirty job.—(Heilf.)__ Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, after what has just fallen frnM the Hon. Member for Surrey, .I cannot avoid gaginh at !_r_ words. .. The lion. Member expressed his regret in(), ln i : Hon. Member had not brought , on the debate on the th e ' of which he had given notice. I will take my 0_ is that Lerd responsibility of this . matter .. My own opinion lthorigh he had Grey was reluctant to recal" Sir 'IL Smith, had bead of the be been for ..some time convinced,. and I: had whet .• Sir a matter of doubt of b.. en. for SOMB time of opinion, that it was . _ . view is own H. Smith . did not take a too sangui e nclined to - indulge in operations, and whether he was not • in opinion government anticipations too favourable. 7 -11 m have every Op. WAS anxious that Sir 11. Smith shouldto. a dose. At War ' '• portunity of bringing .the. . from which it as s. length accounts were receive: no reason to expect the evident Government could hex' an ti c ipated• in Sir Har r y speedy termination of the war Smith's letters and dispatches. . It was then L ord 'Grey that Sir. IL-Smith should be re proposed to the. Cabine t: nou sly , agreed in that opini on. called,-and the Cabinet u y My belief is that Lord Gre ca me with pain to th a t deci . aina, and I am ' quite- s u re it was from no want of upright wish of throwing blameno which ness or generosity—fromothers. he had him Self incurred. on Such a course formB no 'character. Then the Noble Friend a . . .Honourable part of my says--repeating 'an insinuation I did not expect Gentleman v H. Smith had b hear from him—if Sir to Cabinet Minister,been like Lord .orringtn, the relation of a no such a dispatch would not have been w f ritlen.but Sir,e did doubt Lord Torrington is a distant relation 0 mine, . __ not owe to,that re lationship the appointment of Governor of Ceylon. I men tioned three or four persons to Lord Grey who I thought 0. t. . I believe were fit to hold t he appintmen Lord Grey pre ferred at first some other, but atterwarde he informed me tie' had' received a suggestion, I know not from whom, that Lord lit ,person to. entrust ' Torrington was a y , c _ es with the Government of CeyTon. I gave my a Aui cence, but the suggestion did not originate with me. Y own °Pinion is, that Lord Tor rington; in stead of being treated with favo ur , un d er went ari and that partly on unfair o rdeal, .account of being unfortu nately me, related to unmerited blame attached ' to him,• and repeated faults ttribut wire . a ed to him. B ut I' say'that Lord - Torrington's administration was successful—whatever dila , ,oulties he bad to encounter he overcame! whatever disturb- ances occurred he suppressed,.and he left the colony in a far better state than h'e found it.—(Hear.) 'Mr. HUMS said if 'the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Peel) could defend Lord Grey's policy, he was the only Member who could do so.—(Laughter and hear.) He had never heard any one, in or out of the House (except the Hon. Gentleman), Who attempted to defend Lord Grey and hig dispatch to Sir Harry .Smith. He advised Government to ' let the colony govern itself, and not to allow Doweing.street to interfere in their local affairs. Never was a man more ill-treated than Lord Torrington, who rather deserved ap proval than censure. Unfortunately, however, he failed to preserve harmOnfamong the members of his Government, and so was recalled., But when the Hon. Member said Lord Grey favoured one. man because he was a connexion of a Cabinet Minister, and did wrong to another who had no such advantags, the Hon. Member did a gross injustice to Lord Grey. Mr. HINDLE"! was surprised that the Hon. Member for Leominster (Sir F. Peel) had not vindicited the sanction of Lord- Grey to the "vast accession of territory which had taken place. He believed that our real policy was that of Lord Glenelg, and ,that we ought not to have passed beyond the Fish River. , The vote was agreed to, and the House resumed. EXCHEQUER , BILES. The EXchequer Bills Bill passed a second reading. The Inventions Protection Bill was read a third time. CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL. T o h e e th H e ou 6t s h e tehlaeuns‘ev,ent. into Committee on this Bill. • Mr. WALPOLE moved an amendment, in order to pre clude the extension of the inquiry into practices at elections which had taken place some time before the last election. Lord J. RUSSELL said he thought it would be material to empower the Commissioners to institute inquiries into elections that had , occurred 20 years ago. Mr. ANSTEY strongly opposed the amendment, saving that the Bill was of little use now, and if the amendment was iritroduced, the Bill would become a mockery and a sham. Sir F. THESIGER said, some limit surely should be irn posed,:upon the Commissioners—(Hear, hear)—but to fix a term of Sears alone would be difficult. He suggested, there fore a; period often years, or threo elections: BOUVERIE said,Ahe Bill as it had stood followed the' precedent ofthe St. Alban's Bill Mr. REPTON said that Bid gave very large powers, and inquiries had taken place into elections in 1846 and 1841. Mr. HUDSON said, since his friends had come into offiee he had received from his constituents numerous applications 'for the patronage of the 6ovcrntnent. Now until the party opposite satisfied the country that this system of dispensing patronage would be abolished, no Bill of this kind could be . thought honest.—(Hear, hear.) Corruption at head-quarters was greater than that which ever prevailed among the Poor electors.—(Hear, hear.) Sir A. COCKBURN hop e d th e amen d men t wou ld rot b e ' agreed to, as it would make the Bill inefficient. Judging by the last election (Newport), where scenes of tumult and . debauchery" had • taken place whim ougnt to mae us ashamed, there was greater necessity than ever for such a lneasuie. • - - Mr. BELL (amidst cries of" ,Oh, oh") said the stringency of these laws prevented their operation, and that the Com missioners ought nbt to have the power of making fish of one person and flesh of another.—(Laughter.) The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment ... 99 Against it ,„, 116 Majority ... • —l7 The ansendment was therefore lost. Mr. MULLINGS then moved, after " election," to add, " and whether or not all or any of such corrupt practices were committed or done by the fraud or contrivance, or at the instance of any.and What person or persons in particular, and fOr what object, or under what circumstances!' ' - Sir A. COCKBURN argued that the addition proposed was superfluous. • A simil a r c a se h a d not happened twice within the last .twenty years. The Commissioners had not to determine the disfranchisement of any borough; that was to be determined by Parliament. Mr. WALPOLE had no doubt the Commissioners would make a proper report to th e H ouse . Mrs AVULLINGS would not press his amendment. Mr. J. STUART sa i d no one doubted that the dockyard boroughe were the most corrupt in the kingdom. The Bill was founded on the most hypocritical pretences. Sir A. COCKBURN said' when the Hon. Gentleman charged him with hypocrisy he made a most unjust and unfounded charge. Mr. ANSTEY was also of opinion that it was hypocritical to attack the recipient of the bribe and not the briber. The arnendment was then withdrawn. Mr. ADDERL EY moved a proviso, having for its object the "legalisation of necessary refreshments at elections." At present, it was impossible to give any refreshments without coming within the definition of treating, and this he re garded as an anomaly. It had already been proposed to issue a certain number of refreshment tickets by the sheriff, the general expense to be borne by the candidates; but he was anxious to have the principle of reasonable refreshment ratified in the present Bill. Lord J. RUSSELL did not think this proviso could fairly be introduced into the present Bill, but it would be compe tent to affirm the principle in a separate measure. Mr. ADDERLEY reminded the Noble Lord that treating was mentioned in the Bill'before the House. Sir A. COCKBURN said the Bill did not attempt' to define treating. • Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL did not think this proviso could fairly be dealt with in the present Bill. was M likely to h DER e L i E et Y red a u s e k e eL when any measure on the subj ect " he L r od e r lied J. fe ß r U th S e S t E i L li L vir s a a s id th t e ha the n Hon. en. M Ho em . h Aem elrfeber n rE o seex w ; h h om et it would be competent for the Hon. Member (Mr. Adderley) to bring in the Bill himself. • Mr. J. S. WOR [LEY said the present measure applied principally to boroughs, and it was in counties that the prac tice complained of principally prevailed. After a few words from Mr. C. FORESTER, Mr. ADDERLEY promised himself to introduce a Bill on the subject. After some conversation, clauses up to 9 were agreed to. On clause 10 being proposed, Mr. HUDSON wished to ask the Noble Lord lately at the head of the Goyerament to state candidly whether he had not dispensed his patronage, for the many years he was in office, on political grounds, rather than in reference to pnblic advantage?—(Laughter.) Unless there was some clause introduced into this Bill requiring the Government to dis pense their patronage without favour and affection, it could not confer any benefit on the country. The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to, the House resumed, and The CHAIR lI AN reported the Bill with amendments. The Law of Wills' Amendment Bill was read a second time.' The Sheep; &c., Contagious Disorders' Prevention Bill p a , s i s , h e e d through h e(Scotland) t Commit. ia tee n d Bill passed through Committee. The following Bills were read a second time :—The Com mons Enclosure Acts Extension Bill, the Linen, &c., Manu factures (Ireland) Bill, the Dif f erential Dues Bill, the Eccle siastical Courts (Criminal Jurisdiction) Bill, and the Poor Relief Act Continuance Bill. The Proclamation of Parliament Bill was brought down from the House-of Lords, and read a first time. Thetloase adjourned at Half-past One o'clock. 'HOUSE OF LORDS, April 5. Lord REDESDALE took his seat on the Woolsack, in the absence of the Lord Chancellor, at - Five o'clock. EXPULSION OF SCOTCH MINISTERS FROII HUNGARY. The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented a peti tion from the Free Church, Presbytery of Glasgow, complaining of the recent expulsion of the Free Church ministers from Hungary. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. The Earl of DERBY gave notice that he should to morrow move the adjournment of the House until Mon day, the 19th inst. COLONIAL BISHOPS. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY introduced a ,Bill for enabling colonial and other bishops to perform certain functions under the commission of Bishops of England and Ireland. WAR WITH AVA. The Earl of ELLENBOII6UG H 7 spi;ke to the following effect:. —My Lords, I trust that I may now speak without any iecorreetness of expression of the war with Ava. As yet there has been no declaration of war on our part, and ; it is not customary for princes in the East to issue any succhti declaration, and therefore it canno t be expected that su in a monarch as the King of Ava will make any cb"%be such a matter. We are however, at war with r.' AT clu'ng to Government of India a ppears, however, to bave and yet it the last to a hope that war- would not take place. foreseen has made requisitions on Ave which it mt i tl is :77 g i under-' without a war would would ultimate terminate in war, taken- any of those preparations which s and also in this, h ot' necessity-regain. In that eountrv• hat ga ye o d f b two . part:ie!', appears that we may cling to the hope t hat we may have as That, however , is much or as little of war as we please. not the case. War is a and we cannot deal with the dumm ' Ava in this y in the play, war as if he were altogether a . game Just as we please. or of great in order to - conduct the 0 _ provinces game If he ' should decide on a s s ailing itta ur gnn of Tennas- • swim, or of Arracan, or oft in Indiagioo of Assa m ,• h 6 will :subject our Governrn:n will have the em barrassment indeed; '" 1.1 line of advantage of act ing - on what is ealleclan interior tyou, as operations. Allow me, my Lords, to t *ta ° with our last war • shortly as I can, the cir cumstances connecte d in Ave, for it is ne cessarynitude of the crisis • to see the mag nitude my • as it now stands. There were PY. ein sg i° tnan 40.000 Lords , me in the last war with Ave, a force of not . I% li lately sent to All —a force as large as that which the Free jr, with him for the giers, and as that which Bonaparte t° ' conquest of Egypt ; 30,000 :.,„ troops and nearly 7,000 E na t i''' --- he European uropeon bayonets formed that force., °f' t he -left troops, two regiments. the 13th and the aet , Calcutta in April, 1824, 1 800 and in Januar y , 1 826, th had • strong, eynot 500 men le f t fit for - service , in the fie ld • that the mortality in the other E , and - I believe not inferior. I doubt much whether uropean • regiments-WU war 10,000 men out of the at the end of that 411,3 field. The whole a whole 40,000 were fit for duty in away, and was unable army in Arracaa was utterly wasted forces. On the 11th give any co-operation to the other not able to move n M ay it landed at Rangoon, and was following. , jt,,w from that place till the Ilth of the February aa detained h t ete for 11 months, having 'been surrounded by a large Burmese army, an d no t b e i ng able to move forwar d. d. Dtro6 lived uring that time the European troops entirely mink provisions.' No fresh provisions wereto.be bad in the•coutit rY•And when. bullocks ware sent them,. every bullock .sent from : India - cost in freight - 10/. ...otwitlistanding the great 'am oun t o f th e f orce sent t o Ava, I believe that the General, in advancing on the capital of that country, had never more than 5,500 men under arms, and I'kno* that On 'the'24th of February, 1826, he had with him only 4,000 Men. To that small force had our grandarmy dwindled -away. We have undoubtedly now some advantages which we did not then. possess, but the climate of • the country continues the same, as also the same impracticability of moving in.it for nine months of the . year. We , :have. also undoubtedly now great ad vantages in the rapidity of steam navigation; but we must not overestimate them. We can convey troops and munitions of war to that country more rapidly than we could then ; but I doubt whether we can convey them at less expense. Time is most valuable in military operations, but I' doubt Whether,' in point of cheapness, the moving of troops - i's less expansive than before. Moreover, our large steam-vessels draw too much water to move Much further down the river than Rangoon. Smaller steam-vessels, how ever, .by :towing gunboats, will much facilitate the opera tions of the army. But, at the same time, it mast be remembered that at the moment the army leaves the ban k s _ of the river— an d no body knows this better th an 'p o t Noble, Duke ( Wellington) at the table -- 4 such it can aer move . without animals, and aniiiials lin • for , arnlY, oumstances must be ' a great expense to an 'the,' cannot though these smaller steamers may convey 5 a nt?,__,..,,... wh i ch convey animals. There is also anethero_,aw/. The we shall have'now, but which we hadontthrer . m ops under climate of Arracan, - then so fatal . t __ wwin ence of the General,Morriston, is now improved , rr e" ~,: is always a great dif land having.beencleared. ' But the -- e ,... e . ere d, al they now lento iii the health 'of trove we ' are, and in that of troops exposed as our troops would be in ~..` - s z•- - , el t",....... to h lsa wi a s with compared aaa the op en fi e ld f or m ilit ar y operations. •I feel confidenteNe*, ,- - '''', howeve r , th at the health of the troops would not be Bab! ?effete -77 • ---- -- e •• olactceaswio to u a n r . . i ß ta u sn t g t a Rangoon present... e n re lv a s e "v 4 e t thar bi circumstances c y ietr t yw h the s former h disadvantageousrmtere attacked by surprise, and not more than 17,000 Burmese were then in Arracan. Rangoon was attacked by 10,000 ' men, and was captured without lose. We then proceeded to fortify our position and to occupy the great Pagoda, which at once protected and was the key to it. What is the case now? By our operations, untoward as they are, we have indicated the point of attack. We have had a col lision with the Burmese on that point, and, without finding any fault with the officers in command, we have twice most unfortunately retired, after a collision, Irons the conflict. Now the mere circumstance of our retiring under such cir cumstances must give encouragement to the Burmese. The town of Rangoon, which we occupied before, is now de stroyed, and another town, four miles from the river, is built beyond the reach of our steamers, and the whole of the Pagoda to which I have before :Chided, with terraces of brick each rising 15 feet above the other, now rises to a height of 200 . feet above the level of the river, and com mands all the ground in the neighbourhood—a position which is now fortified and stockaded in every direc tion, and defended by 100 guns. It is impossible not to ex pect that great loss will be incurred in taking it; and it is to be attacked, not by 10,000 men as formerly, but by only 7,000 Moreover, the circumstances are particularly un fortunate under which we are called on to carry our army there. The Punjaub is not yet so settled as to enable ns to withdraw any considerable force from it, and, without drawing troops from Bengal, we have not three regiments available to be sent there with safety. I regret, my Lords, to find that one regiment hss been sent from Fort William — for there is only one regiment left to supply its place, and that another has been sent from Fort St. David, which is left without European troops at the very moment when we may be about to engage in another war ; so that in the front of the Nepaulese we are withdrawing the only regi ment which we have to defend Calcutta. There is also ano ther circumstance to be considered, which I take to be one of a very serious nature. In the last war all the operations in Ava were carried on by the,Madras army, and a number of the soldiers who compesed it were brought from that presi dency owing, as I firmly believe, to the great personal 'influ ence and the great personal ability of Sir Thomas Mann. ' Without his influence I think that the Government would not have been able to withdraw from that pr esidency 23,000 men. [A Noble Lord said—" 28,000 men. "] Yes, 28,000 . men, including Europeans. I remember, with regret, car tsin passages in the recent history of the Madras army , which make me doubt whether we can dispatch a large • force of it from that presidency on service beyond the sea; e The •Bengal soldier is accustomed to leave his wife and - family in his native village when called into active service, but the soldiee- of the Madras army take their wives and eunoren with them into the eseiet, -' 50 sum, wnen tney go beyond the sea, all their families form a village, which is left without means of support. When I arrived, some years ago, at Madras. I found two regiments there—l will not say in a state of mutiny, but so disinclined to proceed to China that it became a matter of deep anxiety and appre hension to the Government; and the cause of this disincli nation was the terrible state of misery and distress in which the wives and children of the - men of the regiments which had already sailed for China were left. I see, my Lords, no alteration in the regulations of the service which can relieve these persons from the distress which they suffer: when their husbands and fathers proceed beyond the sea Notwithstanding allthis, I will assume, for I doubt it not, - that we have enure success in the war. What will be the consequence of that success? The result will be the en.' tire dissolution of the Burmese empire, and then it will be for our Government in India to consider what it will do under such circumstances. I know, my Lords, that the Governor-General will be placed in circumstances under which a great pressure will be brought to bear on him' at.. to the policy. ,which he ought to adopt. First, - there are certain enteprising British merchants, who having exhausted all the forests on one bank of the- river and its tri butaries, are very desirous of possessing the teak fere.sts on the other side, for the purpose of carrying on and extending their trade by Rangoon ; and they are in concert and cone nexion with the press of Calcutta, the movements of which I view with anxiety and distrust. They say that in conse quence of our occupying the whole Burmese empire an over land intercourse with China may be established, and that great advantage would accrue to our trade from its extension along that Burmese frontier. That is a feeling which actuates the press of Calcutta. I hope that my Right Honourable Friend the Governor-General of India will treat that press with the disregard which it deserves. But, my Lords, there is also another serious pressure which my Right Honourable Friend ought to disregard, and which it will be more difficult I am afraid for him to resist; that is the pressure of a part of the civil and of the whole military service. They have before their eyes the occupation of Affghanistan, which produced a complete revolution in the army of Bengal. That will always be the case where a great territory is to be occupied even for a time, and still more where a new territory is to be annexed to, and brought under our dominion. Young officers are then placed in com mand of districts—others are placed in political employ ments, where they actually direct the operations of troops under the command of their superiors. Great rewards and distinctions are obtained—great talents exhibited; and every man, with a natural ambition, looks forward to the promo tion he may attain ; and thus the idea of a new war, likely to terminate is new conquests, is dear to that army—an army full of enterprise, and of those feelings which naturally excite military men , to great actions. Under each circum stances, I view with great alarm the annexation to our em pire of a large portion—ay, or even of any portion—of the Burmese territory. It is essentially a false position. My Lords, you must have seen before now that, with great ability on the part of our generals, with great courage on the part of our soldiers, and with the most perfect equip ment on the part of our army, it is very difficult to retain an eminently false position. A false position is as danger ous to an empire as it is to an army, and always ultimately vindicates its power over those who sin against the first principles of true policy. I feel, my Lords, perfectly satis fied that the annexation of Ave, drawing in that direction a I.. g t, purtiuu or um vast resources of tee British empire in India, will naturally impair both its civil and military strength. It is because I entertain these apprehensions of the consequences of the military occupation of Ava, and of the fatal effects of our most complete success, that I request you, my Lords, to call on her Majesty's Ministers to produce such papers on this subject as can be produced without detri ment to the public service, for the purpose of making us acquainted with the causes of this war. I have not heard that any trustworthy military officer on the part of the Go vernment has been sent to Rangoon to ascertain the facts out of e hich it has aria-n. They rest entirely on the authority of persons who went with Colonel Ogle to that country. What value is to be auribuied to their statements we know net; for it is stated, with a degree of con fidence almtst inclining ns to treat it as a certain-y, that the total amount of the indemnity which we require from the Government of Ave is only 9001. ' • and yet to obtain that sum all these pub lic dan gers which I have recounted are to be encountered. Now, my Lords, when I look at the cha racter of the trade carried on at Rangoon, I cannot help looking with suspicion at the statements made. One of the most considerable traders at Rangoon is a person of That man, as soon as he knew of the name of Crisp. war, freighted a schooner with arms the probability o f and sold it to the Governor at Rangoon. When the Gover nor refused paymen t Commodore for them he went toLam bert and complained o f the injury inflicted upon him, and requested him to put it down in the bill to be paid by the Burmese Governor of Rangoon offered in e Burmese Government. The ,o this mans head, and I confess, for one , that 1001. for deeply grieved if he had that I should not have been got it.— Dais is a descriptionof ("Hear," and a laugh.) one of the t b o e and I persons for w hom this a . great war matter is of grea anger undertaken t d ' ' therefore, look to it as . If our reputation and honour be at stake, no m a tt er how how- e ver small the injury , war must be , submitted to, and we mas t endure it; but if there sity for our i n t er ference at present, for th e reasons I have ' stated, .I think w e . oug ht not to interfere. The services o f the Madras a rmy, we neard several months ago, were likely to be engage d in a different affair with the Nizam. W e b e ard that the Indian Government, as a creditor of the 1 Nizem , bad required him to pay a certain sum of money, and that if he did not pay it by a certain day his territory was to be occupied and Lis troops put down. I think that the G o vernor-General should not have made such a demand without having a certainty that he had the Madras army in hand; for the town of Hyderabad is in the hands of the Arabs, and so are all the for in • forts the neighbourhood. They will defend them with bravery, and, unless we postpone the demand for that payment, it will be difficult for the Madras army to carry into effect two distinct and distant operations at the same time. I hope, my Lords, that my Noble Friend opposite will not think it inconsistent with his duty to lay the papers to which I have referred on the table, in order that we may know on what grounds the British Govern ment is proceeding in this war. The Earl of DERBY—With regard to all military opera tions in India, my Noble Friend speaks with a knowledge that gives him great advantage over us. Whatever may be the difficulties attending the operations now going on in Ava —which I am afraid I must agree with my Noble Friend in characterising as a war—l am sure my Noble Friend would be the last man to desire, if protection were required by her Majesty's subjects, that war should not be engaged in if may ne cessary for that object.—(Hear, hear.) Whate ver the pressure of the Calcutta press, or of any portion of those ius of fresh enterprising merchants, or of that army nee laurels, I am sure that the Noble Earl himself is not more anxious than the GovernoreGeneral is to avoid any accession of territory.—(Hear.) I agree with the Noble Earl in alluded to, so far thinking that such an accession as that from being an advantage, w ould be a disadvantage. To a certain extent I shall be able to produce the papers required by the Noble. Earl; and when they are produced, I hope he will be satisfied that, as on the one side there has been no desire to incur the hazards of a war, but, on the contrary, a unanimous desire to try all means to avoid it; so, on the other hind, the measures taken by the Governor-General have been so prompt and effective as to lead to the very reasonable conclusion that no protracted hostilities will take place with the Burmese empire ; and that no such consequence as the disruption of the Burmese empire is • likely to follow from what the Noble Earl calls the complete success—but which, in that case might be con sidered the lamentable, success—of our forces employed. There is no doubt we were justified in making our claims. I am not in a position to enter into a discussion of the, merits. of those Claims. But the justice of thein was repeate dly pressed upon the King of Ava by former GovernophepA_w__ u°';° King of Ave. not only accpli o esced in the justice o f Z claims, but he admitted the justice of them by ° wrehatever one Governor and substitutiug another. So that case may be the policy of the matter, here is a p rima not unrecog to prove that our claims of 9,000 rupees wer e commodore nised nor unfounded. About the 6th of Ja nuary o proceeded up Lambert, in the execution of his instructt w ith the new ng the river for the purpose of comm umcau unia tions were not of Govern of Rangoon. These comm a deputation from an unfrieddly character, and he r ecei ved though t he p a rties were the Governor on board his vesse l , ra .C o mmander Fi s hb ourne not of high rank. He then se y comliance the . O deman d to the Governor, formall c t emi nasder Fish p bourne , and the - terms sent to werehi su bjected to insult s an d in officer with him •• b officer acting under the no Buns r ord ers dignities, wh ich. could submit to. Whether these of his Sovereigrirom a m istaken sense of dignity on the indignities arose of Rangoon I Willn ot Governor say, but the part of th e Br i t i s h officers were kept waiting outs i de the village and were subjecte . dto lean i s and indignities Q which - ' than lee, could be taken in n o other sense as premeditated. A ref usa l wa s ~ , give m munic to t • as h nto the ith t d w offi-ers e effect that th e y cou ld no t b e • co ate he Governor was asleep. The whole of the communications from the Burmese were those e e a s uperior to an inferior; the language in which the , communications were couched altogether claimed supe riority for the Burmese, though I sensi tive as to dignity and forms than t he B ur mese. On re ceiving a lette r o f i nst ructions, Commodore Lambert, in re taliation for the insults from the Burmese, took upon him self—without, however, having rece i ve d precise instructions —to seiz e on a vessel belongin g to th e King of Ava, which him. While engaged in he carried w ith - • this proceeding, the commodore's ship was fired at from a stockade, and as violent hostilities had commenced on the part of the Btu-raw it Tfltil the imperatiTe duty of Commodore Lambert AM - ' •