The Sun. — London, England, 1852-04-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS, April 2. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. The Mutiny Bill and the Marine Mutiny Bill were read a first time. THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHAPTER, The Earl of DERBY spoke to the following effect : —My Lords, I rise, according to the notice placed upon the paper, for thepurpose of moving the appointment of a Select Com mittee to inquire into the operation of the Act 3d and 4th of William IV., chap. 85, for the better government of her Ma jesty's Indian territories, and to report their observations thereon. The motion which I have now to submit to your Lordships is for a Committee to inquire into what, in com pany'sae is called the renewal of the East India Com- Charter. I say "in common parlance," because, not only does that phrase not correctly express the real facts of the case, but because, in reality, it expresses what I may almost say is the reverse of the fact. Up to a comparatively recent period, the East India Company was a commercial besides being a political body, and in the enjoyment of certain rights and privileges as a commercial body. The Act of 1313, however, materially modified those privileges, and a subsequent Act, that of 1833, went still further, and, as I shall have occasion to show, did not only diminish. but altogether took away from the Company the right of exclusive trading, and indeed of trading at all. lam not sure whether, so long as the political powers and authority with which the Company was invested by the Act of 1833 continued, the trading power was not put in abeyance. If, however, your Lordships should now think fit to withdraw their political power, their commercial charter would not be re-established; and if your Lordships decided to continue to the Company the political power which they now enjoy, so far from that being a renewal of the charter, it would be but a renewal of the condition under which that charter remained in abeyance. In bringing forward this motion it is not my intention to weary your Lordships by tracing the rise and progress of this great Company—a career to which I will venture to say history presents no pa rallel, when we look to its humble origin, and when we look to the comparatively short period during which it has established one of the mightest empires under the sun. It is now little more than 200 years since the leaders of this then infant commercial community thought it advisable to refrain from landing a single battalion or from acquiring a single fort on the shores of India, from the fear of exciting the jealousy of the neighbouring sovereigns. I will not attempt to trace the various steps through which this Company, from such an humble beginning, has gradually extended its power, by its negotiations, by its arms, and by the wisdom also of its councillors ; and if, under some of the early cir cumstances of its progress, any signal instances of a large ra pacity and lust for wealth eccurred among its servants. in later times it has been by a wise government and a feeling of enlightened humanity that it has achieved a dominion absolute and uncontrolled, whether by the direct exercise of its authority or by an influence not leas absolute than actual authority, over a district of country extending from Cape Comorin on the south to the borders of 13urmah, of Cash mere, Cauhul, and Affghanittan on the north, and embracing, I think, something like 28 degrees of latitude—(Cheers)—a vast district inhabited by a population which I believe I ant within the mark when I set it down at 150,000,000—exer cising its authority over a population it various races, and of various religious, who have been often in hostility to each other,but who tiow, conquerors and conquered, agree to submit to the jurisdiction of a comparatively smell body of Euro peans—a Company which has secured its power, not so much by the sword as by the wisdom of its councillors, which bay seen succumb to it, one after another, the mightiest mo narchs of India, and which, without any attempt at con quest, without any lust of power—nay, contrary to its wish— has seen the populations of those monarchies gradually fere ing themselves rather than placing themselves under the protection of its authority.—(Cheers.) With this giganiie dominion it is not less extraordinary that although for the maintenance of this vast empire this company possesses an army of 283,000 men, that immense army you rind com posed mainly of natives, and Mahommedans and Hindoos ; every variety of religion and of grade alike vie in loyalty and attachment to their conquerors, and in their service ex hibit as much of interest and devotion as that small but noble army belonging to the mother country with which it is their lot to act.—(Hear.) Sly Lords, when you look to the vast extent and to the great. resources of this em pire, it is no light and unimportant task to which I sun now about; to call your serious consideration.—(hear.) You are calmly and deliberately to investigate the machinery by which the affairs of this great empire is conducted—a ma chinery which, formed for far different purposes, has gradually been diverted from its original intentions, and applied and adapted to the change of circumstances in which it is now placed, an institution and a machinery which would seem at the outset to be almost anomalous, but which has yet operated, I think, most beneficially to the interests of humanity and to the advancement and progress of that mighty empire which it superintends.—(Hear.) I stated that, since 1832 the Committee of the East India Company had ceased alto gether to be a commercial body. In 1813 they possessed, as you are aware, not only the right of trading to India, but the exclusive rights of trading with India and of trading with China. By the Act of 1813, for the first time, a modification was effected in this Company's commercial mo nopoly. Under certain limitations British subjects were permitted to settle in India, and the Indian trade was thrown open to other than the servants of the Company, at the same time not depriving the Company of a participa. tion in that trade. In 1833 we went a step further, and not only took away the exclusive privileges of the Compa ny with regard to India, but took from them altogether the right of trading with India, and also threw open to the public in general the trade with China, which had been up to that time in a close monopoly in the hands of the Com pany. The question of the settlement of Europeans in India, and of their right to occupy land, was also adjusted; but, with regard to commercial affairs, these were the ma terial alterations. Now, by the law of 1533, the Court of Proprietors, the foundation of the: whole machine, ceased in point of fact, to have any interest whatever or any control in the management of the affairs of India • because, by the ar rangement then made, the East India Company were de prived of all their commercial property—not only of the right of trading, but deprived of all their commercial pro perty whatever, which was made over to the Crown, there being at the same time a provision made, thy which the stock of the Company, to the amount of 6,000,0001., or the dividend upon tnat stock, which was a primary charge, upon the revenue of India; and a sum of 2,000,0001. was set aside for the purpose of accumulating, in order, under certain conditions, to buy up, if it were found necessary, that amount of stock. I will here mention, en passant, that the Act of 1833 appears to have contemplated—though the Act expired at the end of twenty years, bat it appears certainly to have contemplated a continuance to the Company of its political powers for a period, not of twenty but of forty years ; inasmuch as the Company, if the political rights which wero accorded to them should be taken away at the end of 20 years, were then entitled to demand the repay ment of their stock at the rate of 2001. sterling for every 100/. of stock—they had a right to require that upon the political power being taken from them their stock should be bought at that amount, and this within a period of three years. New, undoubtedly it is not very probable that, oven if its political powers were taken away, it would make such a demand for the repayment of its stock, for as it is worth, believe, about 2601., it would evidently not be their interest to demand that purchase.—(Wear, hear.) On the other hand, however, you have no power, by the Act of 1833, to pay off that stock at present until 1871 —that is, until the expiration of 40 years—to call on the Company to have that stock paid off. But if the Company's powers should continue up to 1674, the Crown has then the power of in sisting upon ed,an paying off that stock upon the t e r ms I have already mentio giving one year's notice, fi r or the p ur p ose of Ming off- upon that stock the 2,C00,0001. att set aside, and which has nowaccumu lated to between 3,800,000/. and 3,900,0001., was to go accumulating at compound in terest for the purpose of on fund at the Such"ming the necessary expiration of 40 years. were the arrangements of the Act of 1833, which evidently. contemplated. of the question, and of the a reconsideratio n "toe Tin 'T) gove rnment, at the end of 20 years, but whiehPunacel'olactonfory°L'atemplt:ted the continuance of the political powers of the company, with such modifications as might be u years, because till the expiration of for a period of 40 vernment had nu power of extinguishi n g that period the Go the stock. With that Act of 1833 the Court of Proprietor s buys said, to have any control or interest whatever in a s th the affairs of India. The whole business of th e Court of P this moment consists in receiving the dividendrsq rietors-at upon their stock, which is now paying, I think 10 1 / ' p also in electing the members of the Court of cent., Directors Further than that they have no functions whatever to per. form. It is true they may meet and discus s to g ether , o ther r , with regard to the legislation of India, any butuna nimous vote of the whale Court of Proprietors need n ercise the slightest influence over the conduct n ot t f e t z h - e Government. And, indeed, when you look to the present position of the Court of Proprietors, there is some realien why they should not exercise any power over the affairs of India, for they have no interest in it except such as they derive from the payment of dividends, which are made a first charge upon the revenue. The number of proprie tors is, I think, 1,800, the total number of votes being 2,500, of which something like one-fifth are held by native pro prietors. The power which devolves upon these proprietors is in itself a material element in the machinery by which Indian affairs are conducted, but that is the sole power which they possess, with the exception, I believe, of a very insig nificant, though a very proper power, of putting a check upon some-gratuities, to the amount of not more than 6001. a-year, voted by the directors. I have been speaking throughout of the Court of Proprietors; I now come to the Court of Directors, elected by them. That Court consists of twenty-four members, and I believe the only qualification is the possession of a certain amount of stock—l forget pre cisely to what amount; I believe I,oool.—and persons are disqualified if directors of the Bank of England or of the South Sea-house. The directors, generally speaking, are the great majority of them, men whose lives have been spent and whose fortunes have been accumulated in India, and who must therefore be familiarly acquainted with the working of the system, with the country, and the character of the inha bitants, and who are practically, I believe, well qualified to undertake the government. One-fourth of the 24 directors go out of office every four years, but, as they are generally re-elected, the whole body of directors may practically be said to sit for life. Most of these details will probably be very familiar to some of your Lordships, but I did not think upon such an occasion that it was unfitting in me to state, as shortly as I could, what is the nature of the system, and how far its practical working may seem to compensate for some of the anomalies which may be found in it.—(llear, hear.) As to the power of the directors, I am not prepared to say that it is greater than it ought to be. They divide them selves into three committees—one the finance committee, another the political and legislative, and the third the home and judicial committee; one of these committees has eight, and the two others seven members each; and these, together with the chairman and deputy-chairman, form the whole governing—if that is not a wrong expression—the whole governing body. In these direetors is vested, both nomi nally and substantially with regard to most of the offices, the power of making the appointments in the civil service of India. The exceptions, which are r eal, are the Governor- General, the; Judges, the bishops, appointments which are reserved to the Crown, and a small n umber of the subordinate appointmen ts , which by custom or b y courtes y (I do not whether by law) are with the President of the Board of Control. The appointments nomi nally Proceed, end many * really, of Directors; but the realpCoowu ewer r t which the Court of Directors p alien substantialfroni know may lead to considerable difference power . . which I which ought to be carefully and deliberately of opinion, and that of recalling each and every considered, is ser t v h a e n i t of the company, from the Governor-General down to with i west clerk, with out any communication or concert the co the Crown. For every appointment they must have us was of the Crown. (Some remark which did not reach uflerwowas interposed that, companyhas the by a Peer.) I believe that is 'so ; the power of recalling any or every servant of in India, and the Company have also a like r er of re calnr, without concert or communication with the Crea m as the Crown has the power without communication 'with the Compaev. There may be occasions—there hav e b een upon which 'that authority may practically lead to some inconvenience. But when we come to the legislative power of the Court of Directors, great as it may appear, and great as undoubtedly is the influence they exercise, their legislative power dwindles down to nothing ; for not only have the Court of Proprietors no power, by a unanimous vote, to issue a single order, but the Court of Directors can issue no order with re gard to the legislation or government of India without the consent of the Crown signified through the President of the Board of Control. They have no power of issuing a single dispatch, and more, no power of refusing the issuing of a single dispatch, which the President of the Board of Control may think it his duty to insist upon their transmit ting. If the President of the Board of Control sends to the Court of Directors a dispatch upon a particular subject, and they refuse to deal with that question, he may then, in one fortnight, compel the transmission of that dispatch ; and the single exception is the very improbable one, in which the orders of the President of the Board of Control may be con trary to law, in which case the Court of Directors hold that they have an appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench, to know whether they ought or not to execute those orders. But, further, supposing, in dealing with one particular question. the Court of Directors should think fit to send particular instructions, and the dispatch bearing those orders and instructions, when submitted to the President of the Board of Control, should be by him disapproved of, not only are they compelled not to send out the dispatch they intended, but the Board of Control exercises the power of altogether modifying and altering the dispatch, so as, if it thought fit, to reverse the whole sense and meaning of the inetructions- and, under the hand of the Board, to give instructions altogether at variance with those which they desire to go out to the authorities as having the fiat of the President of the Beard of Control, in whom, after what I have said, your Lordships will see that, virtually, the admi nistration of the affairs of India in this country is vested.— (Hear, hear.) The constitution of the Board of Control has undergone alterations since it was established in 1784 ; the last, in 1883, at the time of the last Act of Parliament, by which, instead of three paid commissioners and secreta ries, it became what it now is, having a President and two secretaries sitting in Parliament. That has been the consti tution of the Board of Control since 1833, and in that Board, practically speaking, the whole administration of the affairs of India rests.—(Hear, hear.) When looking, then, to the working of this anomalous machine, conducted in the first place, apparently by directors, elected by a body of proprietors who have * little or no interest in the affairs of the country which the directors are to govern—conducted again by those directors under the control of the President of the Board of Control, and thereby reduced to be in fact a subordinate Government board the question naturally suggests itself, to what purpose is it to continue this complex and anomalous machinery? Why not vest the nominal autho rity in the same hands which are now possessed of the real and why not dispense altogether with the unnecessary in tervention of the Board of Directors? That is a very im portant question, and one which the Committee will have carefully and seriously to consider. I think, for my own part, that very valid and strong reasons may be given for not departing from the practical working of that which we find in existence.—(Hear, hear.) But it is undoubtedly a question which will be open to t he consideration and judg ment of the Committee; and they ought to be satisfied, if they recommend the continuance of this system, either that it is one which in itself works well, or else that it works, at ad events, better than any modification or alteration which can be introduced, by giving a more direct power to the Government.—( Hear. hear.) I ought to men tion that, independent of the Court of Proprietors and Court of Directors, there is also the „ Secret Committee," which is charged with all negotiations and aflairs which have to be tracsacted with the native princes, as well as other business which it may be thought expedient to preserve in secrecy. This Secret Committee consists of the chairman and deputy-chairman, with, I think, the senior member of the Court of i irectore, and, in conjunction with the Presi dent of the Board of Control, this Committee administers practically all those affairs which come under the political head to which I have adverted, of negotiations or dealings with foreign princes.—(hear, hear.) Now, I think it may not be a waste of your Lordships' time if we just see how this system has practically operated in India, and what has been the progress made there since 1831; I have spoken hitherto, of course, only of that operation of the machinery which is limited to this country. In India, I think, up to 1833, the three presidencies were distinct and separate. By the Act of 1833 it was contemplated to give to the Presidency of Bengal an overruling and preponderating influence and su preme authority over the other two. I think it was even con templated at that time that the Council of Beugel should be a sort of ambulatory council, sent the different presidencies under their rule for the administration of their affairs: that practically has not been the case. The Governor-General in council has administered the affairs of the Presidency of Bengal.—(Hear.) In 1833 there was also a proposition for the institution of another presidency, of Agra; but that was done away with, and I believe since that time there has been a Lieutenant-Governor for that district.—(Hear.) Now, undoubtedly the Government of India has been, and I think for many years must he, that which has been spoken of in terms of praise by a Noble Friend of mine, whom I do not see in his place (Earl Fitzwilliam)—"a mild despotism." I 'apprehend none of your Lordships would dream that the time has arrived at which popular institu tions can be applied to the government of India—( Hear, hear)—and that, practically speaking, it is necessary that the power of governing these vast dominions, subject to the control of the Government at home, should be vested, as it is at present, in the separate councils, and, more especially, in the supreme authority of the Governor- General in council. In the formation of that council, however, in 1833, there was for the first time introduced a new element, by the addition of a new coun cillor, not in the civil service of the company. Previously to that, I think, it consisted of the Go vernor-General, the Commander of the Forces (not neces sarily, I think), and three other members of the civil ser vice; with them was associated by the Act of 1833 a fourth couuciiler, appointed directly by the Crown, and charged with peculiar functions, but having only the power to at tend the deliberations of that council when they entered upon the discussion of judicial and legislative business.—(Hear.) Now, Ido not lay any stress upon the extent of territory acquired by the Company since 1834, because I am by no means sure that the acquisition of all that territory was by any means an unmixed advantage, and I am sure that the possession of great portions of it was forced upon a very re luctant Government by circumstances over which they ex ercised no control ; but the fact is that since the last time this question came before Parliament there has been added to the territories of the company an area of no less than 165,000 square miles, comprising a population of 8,380,000. In the course of that time it has been necessary, no doubt, mate rially to augment the expenditure and establishment of the Indian service, but I am happy to say that with the ad vance of that establishment, although I confess there has been a certain addition to the annual interest of the debt, the revenue has increased from 18,500,000/. in 1334, in round numbers, to about 25,000,009/. in 1849-50, while the charge has increased from 18,600,000/. (rather in excess of the revenue) to 24,306,0001. in 1849.50 (being rather below the revenue); the estimated charge for 1850-51 is (we under stood) somewhat in excess, arising from circumstances which it is not necessary to detail. But I think it will be gratify ing to your Lordships to learn that, while there has been an increase in the territories of the company, and an increase of revenae equal to the increased charge to be borne, the com mercial prosperity has made rapid and immense strides during that period. I hold in my hand an account—l will not trouble your Lordships except by stating the first and last years of this return—l find the tonnage of British ves sels between this country and India stands thus :—The ar rivals in 1334-33 were 105,000 tons; in 1849-50, 252,000 tons. The departures in 1634-35, 83,776 tons; in 1849-50, 280,897 tons. The imports, in round numbers, had risen from 61,000,000r.-6,000,000/., in 1834-5, to 12,000,000/. in 1848-9, the last year for which there is a return; and •the exports of India have, in the same time, increased from 8,000,000/. to 18,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) In the course of that time it is not only the material and commer cial prosperity of India which has made rapid strides—it is not only that large territory has been added to your do minions, and new nations subjected to your sway, but I am happy to say, that in the arts of peace there has been a great and salutary increase.—(bear, hear.) With regard to that which I must look upon as one of the most leading objects, though it is an establishment which has to contend with many obstacles, and work its way gradually through a mass of ienorance and superstition and of conflicting difficulties, which resider its advance blow and almost imperceptible, it is satisfactory to know that, whereas through the whole of the vast territories of India there were only employed in the service of the company 31 chaplains of the Church of Eng land,when the episcopal authority was first intro there were a bishop and 75 clergymen. The n ee n 1183813m3lultiplied the number of bishops, assigning it s Ad ut ee d of bishop to each separatelBlp2, resoirde7nscy.asTilaheliBe3a2, re t n h o re w e , h i i n e s h t e e p a e d iii of 31 chaplains , a s and no less than 130 chaplains of the Church of England,' independent of t he ministers of the Scotch Church —(Hear, hear.) Ot' the great social improvements which have taken I Cannot but mention, in the first place,that which . has place, cautiously and gradually introcluced, s 1834, slavery p asse ain ;11 8 1 3 hoot been the object of the constant and earnest attention of this ;country, viz., the total and entire abolition of roug its dominions ; and, although great difficulties had to be encountered, yet, by an Act ) in India as nc in o minions, slavery wa s t,' the rest of her Majesty's abolished.— (Hear,do hear. in India. In 1 not less gratifying change has taken place with and completely examining into the w hole contemplated to establish, and —the whole system of there was established, a Teas I commission for the purpose of 83 :e i fard to the administration of justice f the system o J generally their opinions withnal and civ il laws altera tions. In India you have regard to the n trri isiplrauwd,e andnc e reporting generally courts and the courts anderthe ,Company. The Crown courts consist a the control of and two puisne to distinguish between the Crown chief for some time consisted of ae judges; I believe, practically,a justi ce have These have very large and extensiv e ustioo and asz hb r eeefa t t introduced presidencies, t hey jurisdiction .n ; re cently, since 1833, there have the control of the Company, ced, I think under if I make any errors in spea — kin must beg pardon with which I have not been have been established minor couvrgts, upon lii a subject ery fa em adjudicatingi thel ia familiar,—there a , l --l n e j o d t u u h g h e t r y e courts in this country, for the purpose in matters of small amount. But, althoughatfh which is rymmissionsent out in 1833 sat for some time, and laboured C ommission indus triously, and produced a most elaborate penal at the present moment, I believe, under the consideration the Governor of India, that Commission, front va e ftt li es o e f cir cumstances, did not enter upon the discussion of th i s ; whole of the extensive subject committed to it; gradually, Hever, it has been permitted to lapse, the vacancies occurring upon it it not being filled up, and the labour has since devolved upon the members of council appointed under the Act of 1833. But there are also courts of justice of various grada tions and ranks authorized to deal with questions of various amounts and moment, with more or less of appellate jurisdic tion. I ought not to waste your Lordships' time by giving you details respecting the Zillah Courts and the Sadder and other courts, and the various gradations of jurisdiction, bat that to which I desire to point your attention is, that in the course of the period which has elapsed since 1833 there has been a very great interest in that which I look upon as a matter of signal importance, viz., the employment of the natives of India themselves in the minor courts, and extending considerably the judicial autho rity conferred upon those courts.— (Hear, hear.) I have said that I think the time is far from being come at which anything like popular institutions should be conferred upon any por tion of India; but of this 1 am quite sure, that this is your bounden duty in the interests of humanity, of benevolence, and of morality and religioa—that as far and as fast as you can do it safely, wisely, and prudently, the inhabitants of India should be gradually entrusted with more and more of the superintendence of their own internal affairs, under the control of British authority, and learning to respect that authority which is vested in the law, and which they see judiciously and British authority, enforced, temperately enforced also, ah by the superior r r i m ti l sh authority, which they may by long habit and practice learn . to imitate, and, I would hope, even And even if that gradual admission of the In to surpass. should have the effect, not of consolidating and cautiously, dian race to te benefits of self-government, slowly and leading a people accustomed to self _ been built up, but of somethingmore ofcontrol over their extending the gre at fabric of British dominion which has government to desire afiaies—.( Hear, hear)—l say political as well as their j udicial that, even if the gigantic power of Britain over India should in the course of years —but centuries must first elapse— fall to the ground - by the operation of their own hands, it would have been an achievement worthy of a nation like this to have rescued the native population from the state of ignorance, superstition, and debasement in which we found a large portion of them sunk, and to have placed them, at the expiration of the period of our dominion, in the capacity of administering the affairs of their own country as an inde pendent nation ; but, under the influence of those laws, those principles, and those sound maxims which they ought ever to entertain gratitude to this country for having with care and pains instilled into their hearts.—(Cheers.) My Lords, I say this is not a work of months, or of years, it may be of centuries; but, though we may not live to see it, that does not absolve us from the duty, while we carefully abstain from placing in the hands of an ignorant population power which they are incapable of wielding for their own benefit— it does not absolve us from the obligation of endeavouring to raise that population in the social scale, and care fully to intrust them with such an amount of the administration of their own local affairs as not to their detriment but to their benefit, they may safely be enabled to carry on.—(Hear, hear.) The whole of the details of the judicial arrangement, and the extent to which the admission of natives - has gone, every detail which Parliament may desire, will freely be laid be fore the Committee, should it be your Lordships' pleasure to appoint one to inquire into the working of the existing system. There will also be laid before you matters of not less importance than those which I have enumerated—the steps that have been taken for promoting the :material pros perity of the country, the improvement of the communica tions, the formation of roads and canals, the clearing of the country, the irrigation of districts which, from the want of it, were subject to all the horrors of periodical famine -these will be set before you, and it will be for you to consider whether the directors of the East India Company, under the control and superintendence of the Government here, and through the administration of the various Governors- General who since 1833 have held the supreme power in the country, have or have not been faithful and efficient stewards of the great interests committed to their charge.—(Hear, hear.) It will then be for you, having inquired into the practical working of the existing system, to consider how far it is wise to continue, either in the whole or in part how far altogether to abrogate— how far to alter or to modify in detail— the system which at present prevails. But, undoubtedly, one principal point which you will have to consider is, whether there be advantage or detriment to the public service in retaining that intervening authority between the Board of Control, or the Government of the day, and the people or Govern ment of India, which now subsists in the Court of Directors. The Court of Directors have little substantial power, but their functions are neither few nor unimportant. They meet weekly for the purpose of considering and replying to the various dispatches which are received from the Go vernor-General of India in council, and from the various committees by which the affairs of government are con ducted in India. They give to her Majesty's Government on all occasions their willing and cordial co-operation and assistance. I believe the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough), and all those who have filled the high situa tion which he lately occupied, will cordially and readily ac knowledge how much advantsge they have derived in the administration of the affairs of India from the talents, abili ties, and experience of those gentlemen with whom they have been brought into contact, and by whose advice they have been iu many respects guided. But, as I said before, the Colart of Directors, if they have no substantial power, have a large amount of patronage. Now, is it desirable, or is it not, that that patronage should rest in the hands which now hold it? I; it desirable that the patronage of an empire like India, extensive as it is, and comprising every variety of employment, should be vested in those who now exercise it, or should be placed in the hands of the servants of the Crown, changing from time to time according to the political changes in this country? In the first place, my Lords, I think that to bestow upon the Government of the day the whole amount of the patronage of India would be to place a very dangerous and unconstitutional amount of power (Hear, hear)—practically in the hands of irresponsible a h n o d wel-e r sincere Ministers. la m q u ite sure that no Minister of the C r o wn, honesthisdesire mi ht t o b be d m his n intentions,ister thatpatronage o however r truethe benefit of India, could administer it with as much know ledge of the circumstances and exigencies of the country as a permanent body, the great majority of whom are inti mately and personally connected, with the affairs of India. —(Hear, hear)—and who have an accurate knowledge of the country, of its legislation, and of its inhabitants.— (Hear, hear.) I have said that the Board of Directors con sists at this time of thirty gentlemen—that is, including the six who went out last year; and the fact is, that of these thirty gentlemen—although there is no necessary qualiflca• tfau except that of being the possessor of a certain amount of stack—of these thirty gentlemen there are no less than twenty-one in office at this moment, who have served the Company with distinction in the various branches of the civil service, and who bring, conse quently to the discussion of Indian affairs the whole of their experience and knowledge with regard to the condi tion and requirements of that country. With regard to an empire like India, it is a matter of infinite importance that the controlling power should, as far as possible, be kept aloof from political squabbles and party quarrels.—(Hear, hear.) That object, as is well known, is practically obtained by the system which now prevails; for, although undoubtedly there may be, and there are, influences connected with the patron age of that depatment which may connect it in a certain way with political considerations, yet it is notorious that, although the politics of the Directors, some of whom have seats in the Legislature, are of various shades, there is no political bear ing whatever influencing their conduct with respect to the affairs of India. But is there no further advantage with re gard to the selection of those who are to form the civil ser vice of India? The civil service of India is a service alto- gether apart. Be it the civil service or the military service of India, it is a profession taken up at the earliest age; and, to become qualified for that profession, to rise in that pro fession, to receive the honours of that profession, is the first and early ambition of the youngest cadet or writer who goes out to India. Now, there surely is a great advantage in this respect with regard to India. I know, with regard to the colonial administration, with which I was long familiar, how great is the disadvantage arisingtfrom the impossibility, within the limited scale of each colony, of finding persons in the colony, or connected with it, properly acquainted with the colony, and able satisfactorily to assist in conducting its affairs. But the small: ecale of each of these colonies—the small scale, com paratively speaking, even of the Colonial Department alto gether—independently of the widely different interests of different colonies, precludes the possibility of setting aside such a school for colonial service as is wisely and moat bene ficially set aside by existing arrangements with regard to the Indian service. Nor do I think it is a matter of any complaint, a matter of any grievance, a matter to be de plored, much less condemned—nay, on the contrary, I think it is the subject of congratulation and rejoicing—if we find a man who, at the age of 15 or 16, has entered the East India Company's service, who has been himself edu cated for the special service of that company in establish ments maintained, and most liberally maintained—at the expense of the company itself, whose fitness to enter upon his duties has been tested by an examination, the strictness of which has been much increased, before he was even per mitted to go out to the scene of his future life, who had spent the best years of his life in India, who takes a deep interest in the affairs of that country—though, like all Eng lishmen, he has always looked forward to the period when he might return to this land, which he never ceases to con sider as his home,—who, upon his return, brings with him Indian recollections and Indian interests, and can apply to the administration of the affairs of India the knowledge and experience which be has there acquired, while, at the same time, he obtains personal distinction and reward for his past at. , ices by a seat in the direction,—l consider that, so far from its being cause of regret, it is a subject of congratula tion that there are the means of bringing forward within this country a body of men so formed and constituted to advise and assist the Government.—(Hear,, hear.) It is also a matter of congratulation and rejoicing that, at the close of his life, each of the old and faithful servants of the company has, by the exercise of his patronage, the means of introducing to the same honourable career, and launching upon the same creditable course, his own son, or nephew, or grandson, in whom may be instilled, from their earliest years, a love for and an interest in India, and who may be prepared to run the course which he who gives the appoint ment has honourably and creditably run before. There must be, and always are, wherever you vast patronage, in dividual cases of its abuse. But this I believe, that it' by holding out a premium—a most cheap premium —for the in , valuable services of tte men who serve you, I had almost said, without any other reward, for I believe their service is almost gratuitous—if you can obtain such advantages by living to those best qualified, from their knowledge of ndia, to exercise patronage, the advantage of that patron age, it is for the service of this country and for the benefit of India; and if those gentlemen do apply such patronage, in some instances, to place in the Indian service those in whom they have near and personal interest, I say that it is not a corrupt exercise of patronage— (Hear, hear)—it is not an exercise of patronage which ought to be deplored and condemned, but, on the contrary, it is an exercise of patron age, as I believe, beat calculated to promote the welfare and advantage of India. This subject, however, is one which your Lordships must consider, if von consent to the appointment of this Committee. You will have to consider whether any modification should be introduced in the existing system, and upon the part of her Majesty's Government there will be no indisposition to lay before the Committee, in the fullest detail, all the infor mation they may desire with regard to the working of the existing machinery, whether in the political, in the judicial, or in the social system of India, in order that your Lordships ma' have the means of coming to a deliberate and impartial decision upon that vast and momentous question—namely, by what means, and by what instrumentality (remembering that this is no party, no political question—it is a question of empire), the great and important interests of that over whelming empire of India can beat be promoted and most steadily advanced. I will not further detain your Lordships with any further expression of opinion on my own part, be cause I concur with the Noble Earl opposite in the caution which he gave both to me and to my Right Hon. Friend at sho n u r ld ser t l h e as er t t il a i n p l l y ed e g n e . en tertain a the head ourselves ofw with h e regerd department , to any that sp we e ci fie en • strong opinion as to the course of policy which it may be desirablee hands of p forParliaermlumiut. B Parliament t e op pursue, , the but reports of h thatquest t ion e w ill rest in the CommitteesMaje,sty's Governe and to those Committees must be deputed ofthims e a n n t d a t r h e e r o e t a n d e y r te H b o e us g e ni o d f ed P i a n rli t a h m e en c t ou h re e e r they task ' of considering how the affairs of India the important best conducted.—(Cheers.) shall hereafter be OROUGH observed, that his Noble Earl of ELLENB The Ear d with very general correctness the able Friend had described with of India was at present con will pursue tem upon which the government y e ncem generale nt er or error r his f con ducted, The Noble speech, had taken occasion the East India Company's h the question now before Parlia mentcommon parlance, by which of the "renewal" of was described as being a question had done afterwards with his Noble Friend, entering as he E'aornLtoat correct t he commencement i ve m r between the Court very great correctness into the relations not also avoided of Directors and the Board of Control, had charter. He was surprised that the very general error in comm on parlance, by w hich the Company was d escr ib e d as governing India. The Company might nominally reign, but the Comp an y did not govern India. —r 11 For about seventy years t he Court ofDi rectors had, i n p o i nt of fact, been no more than t he council of the Board o f C ontrol; and what Parliament ha d now to con sider was, wh e th er it was expedient still to continu e that Par liamentary fi c ti on, or whether it might not be bet ter to adopt a more direct course for the government of India. He did not know whether his Noble Friend, who had spoken of the psirtojogrnmin wwhhiicchhltnhdaita had made during the last twenty ' years, had taken into his consideration the very peculiar po sition ot that power they the Seikh power had alto ether changed the position of India. r Before the destruction t rival, country now stood. The destruction of and there was every reason to expect, at no distant day, a most serious conflict for supremacy in India. That rival, however, was now destroyed, and they stood in the position had a great in which Rome stood after the destruction of Carthage, when, all fear of rivalry in the field having b een removed, those evils began to ope ra t e which led to t h e destruction of public liberty, to the ruin of th e commonwealth, and to the ultimate annihilation of the empire. Th e h a d now arrived , In o at a position when they could not with s a fety go beyond I their present territorial limits. Indeed, • his f in opinion they had already in some quarters passed those limits. It was with much regret that he looked to the possession of Peshawar and of any country on the right bank of the Indus, above Kalabagh, where the navigation of the Indus from the sea ceased. He looked also with regret upon most of the annexations obtained 20 years ago from the Court of Ave, with the exception of the annexation of Arracan ; but of this he was quite sure, that beyond their present terri torial limits it would be the last proof of political insanity to pass. The danger, in a military empire such as India was and must ever remain, was greater far in the sta tionary than in the progressive state. His apprehensions now arose from the insolence of office, which even in his time had led to one insurrection, from disregard of military duties, from the absence of due consideration for the native officers and troops, and, above all, from the forgetfulness of that great principle by which their Indian empire had been acquired—respect for the religious prejudices and for the social happiness of the people.—(Hear.) These were the dangers of a stationary state, and were, in his opinion, greater far than any danger they had encountered in the progressive state of the ample dominions which they now possessed in India. When he came to consider what they should do under these circumstances, and what alterations, it any, they should make in the present system of the government of India, he assumed with his Noble Friend one point as absolutely settled seventy years ago namely, that the patronage of India was severed for ever from the Crown. He willingly acquiesced in that as a settled point, because he believed it was equally conducive to the advantage of this country and of India; but, at the same time, he was of opinion that much might be done by Parliament for the purpose of improving the admi nistration of patronage. He would at once distinctly declare that in his opinion there was no object Parliament could have in view so important as that of sending to India the very best persons both for the military and the civil departments, for their character was practically the Government of India. He was willing to admit another principle, though he did so with very considerable reluctance—namely, that it was ne cessary to continue the system of double government. He did not approve of that system ; he saw all its mischiefs ; he saw how directly it led to delay in the transa c ti on o f busi ness, occasionally to very great embar rassment, and neces sarilytb great tdregart disregard of absenceeconomy; of but, above all that, it involved practically aall real responsibility on the part of the home authorities. He would only at the present moment touch upon those organic chan ges which it seemed to him expedient to introduce for the purpose of leading to the improved government of India. He admitted that in the course of the last twenty y ears muc h h a d been done. It would be hard indeed if I n di a a l on e should not have shared in the universal progress bhtobweedvbebr,e by ye the improvements he would touched upon the organic of the world. But much remained to b e d one , an d h e thought suggest. much B changes he would desire to see introduced, h e wou ld s hortly state those alterations in the present law w hi c h it would be e x p e dient to introduce, even if they w ere prepare d t o ;main tain the Court of Directors and the B oar d o f Control as elomre might they now were, and to conduct the Government precisely upon the principles upon which it now rested. Ile would first suggest that it would be highly expedient that the Board ca Control should have the same power over the home treasury es they had over the treasury in India. At present the Board had no such power. Whatever information the Board of Control might have with respect to any intended misappropriation of the public revenue of hells, they were powerless for the purpose of preventing it. He believed that if the Court of Directors were to give an order to the Bank to divide among them the whole of the balance the Com pany might have there, the Board of Control had no power whatever to prevent such a division. He would ask their Lordships to look at the establishment of the East India House, and compare it with the establishments of the Crown, either with regard to numbers or emoluments. He believed the number of persons employed at this moment at the East India House was equal to the number employed in all the departments of all the Secretaries of State. If, however, they only looked at the emoluments these persons received, he apprehended it woull be found that there was a very wide space for economical reductions. Such was the extrava gance of thesesemolumsnts, that he recollected being told, more than 20 years ago, when he first went to the Board of Control, that a gentleman, whose only recommendation was that he had written some ver y bad novels, which had failed, but who bad a sort of knack for writing, had been employed by the court, at a salary of 2,0001. a year, to write the controversial letters the court might have to ad dress to the Board of Control. For his (Lord Ellen borough's) part, he was charmed with the correspondence; for, such were the literary abilities of this gentleman, that his letters, especially when altered and amended by 24 other gentlemen, did not interpose very great die cuities in the way of the person who was called upon to answer them.— (A laugh.) He would further suggest that the audit of the accounts of the East India Company should not be entiuely dependent upon themselves, but that an independent audi tor should be appointed by the Crown. He saw no reason why the officer who held such an im portant situation Should not be a s independent as the Noble Lord who was auditor of the Treasury. He thought the duty of the auditor should be not merely to see that there was authority for every payment, but that every payment was, according to the strict appropriati ei in the Act of Parliament, for the service of the government of India. He did not hesitate to say that payments had been made which were inconsistent with that appropriation, and which, from his understanding of the Act of Parliament, were illegal. Another alteration which he thought would be productive of very great public advantage would be to give to the Crown the absolute power of nominating the Commanders-in-Chief of the army in India, and not merely of the army of India, but of the armies of both the presi dencies. He would give the Crown the power of appointing the Commanders-in-Chief of both the royal and the native armies, and would suggest that they should (as we under stood) be ex-officio members of the Council. He knew of one occasion—and there might be many—in which the East India Company had prevented the appointment of the officer who had been thought most fit in the judgment of the Crown to command the army, and that was a power they ought not to have. He thought it a great scandal and a great abuse. He recollected, too, that on anothor occasion the most extraordinary—he might say, indeed, with out any imputation of using language too strong, the most impudent—representations had been made against the appointment of the late Earl of Dalhousie to the command of the army, because, forsooth, the Chair man of the Court of Directors, Mr. Astell, took a different view of the Noble Lord's conduct when Governor of Lower Canada from that which had been taken of it by Mr. Hus kisson, the Colonial Secretary. Now, he conceived that those were representations which the Court of Directors ought not to have power to make. Again, he remembered another occasion on which representations had been made to him against the appointment of a most pliant officer, on the ground that he was addicted to habits of drunkenness. These representations were investigated, and proved to be utterly false, and yet he (Lord Ellenborough) had, as repre sentative of the Crown, to make answer in reference to these charges to the Board of Control. Such things, in his opinion, ought not to be. And further, he thought it ab solutely necessary, especially under the present circum stances of India, which demanded, in order to insure its safety, a very large increase of European troops, and a very great diminution of the native forces, and that there should be substitued for the civil police, which was ut terly inefficient, a military police, IV h 0 would perform many of the duties now executed by the native soldier — he said it was absolutely necessary that the Crown should possess without any control on th e par t of the Board of Directors the unrestricted power of sending out as many of the regular troops as was thought fit. At present the Crown could not send oat more than 20,000 without the consent of the board, which was co n t r ary to reason and to public policy, inasmuch as the Crown was re sponsible for the safety of India, and on the Crown should rest the decision of the number of troops to be maintained there. He thought, also, it would be very expedient that the Crown should possess the power of giving a negative in the appoint ment of members of the council. He was far from saying those gentlemen had not been properly appointed, but in the new circumstances and position of the country it was most expedient and necessary, in isis judgment, that every mem ber of the militia as well as of the civil service should look to the Crown as the source of honour and authority.— (Hear, bear.) He did not propose any alteration should take place in the mode of appointment of the Governor- General. There were practical advantages in the present arrangement, and under all the circumstances it secured the best appointments. No doubt there had been occasions on which the Government had been inconveniently pressed by the request of one of their own friends, whom they would not wish to disoblige, while, at the same time, they would be re luctant to trust the government of India into his hands. lie knew that there had been an occasion in which the intervention of the Court of Directors had been found convenient to Go vernment in this respect, and, seeing no practical inconve nience whatever in the present system, he ahould certainly propose no alteration. But be expressed his opinion, and to it he undoubtedly adhered, that the appointment not only of the Governor-General, but of the governors of subordi nate provinces, and their continuance in office, s h ou ld depend upon the Crown. They might,; with great advantage to the country and to the service, improve the position of the Governor-General, and increase his means of usefulness, by placing him on such a footing that he should not be depend ent on two masters—that he should be no longer left in a condition in which he was liable to be accused by the one, and be recalled by the other. They might also greatly im prove his public usefulness, by improving the composition of the council with which he acted. At present there was no member of the Bombay or Madras services on the council ; and yet Acts were sent fume Bombay and Madras to the Governor and Council, which alone had legislative power and many measures were prepared by them with respect to which the Government of India was practically iu darkness, having no means of obtaining information about them. He thought it would greatly conduce to the improvement of legislation, and much assist the Governor-General in respect to questions of this nature, if he had re p resen tatives of each of those provinces in his council. He did not know that it would be advisable to make any alteration in the law, or in the practice by whic h th e Governor-General of India was nominated Governor of Bengal at the same time; but he thought it would be high; --Y conducive to the due dis charge of his public duties that the governor should divest himself of the government of Bengal; and vest it in one of his council. He really had not time no matter what labours he might take upon himself, to disc'harge all the duties that devolved upon him. His Noble Friend had spoken of the provision of the Act of 1833, by which an extraordinary member of the council was appointed. It had always ap peared to him that a great practical improvement might be made in the selection of that individual. Hitherto he had been on all occasions a member of the legal profession, and as such the gentleman appointed considered himself to be sent out as the legislator of India , and from the day of his arrival to the day of his departure he used all his efforts to alter the law, and to change the legislation of a great empire. Now, even the most enlightened- British lawyer suddenly thrown into the midst of Calcutta was not the man most qualified to devise those laws by which the people of India were to be governed. But by using that p r ovision of 1833 in a different manner they mi g ht give great assistance to the Go vernor-General. He thought the selection of a gentleman from that grade out of which gentlem en wer e mostly taken for the office of Under-Secretary of State would be the greatest as sistance to the Governor and Council. Such a person would be able to direct his fresh English mind to subjects pressed upon the G overnor-General by individuals with Indian prejudices, and, having a person of European reputa tion to consult with, it would be to the mind of the Governor-Geaeral the greatest possible relief. He could assure their Lordships there was nothing in India which pressed so heavily on the Governor-General as having no other mind to which he could have recourse, and being obliged to do everything from his own thought ' and will, without the opportunity of obtaining any aid whatever, in the formation of hia projects. The Governor- General might obtain facts, but be could not get opinions; and there really was nothing more calculated to unnerve a man than this constant pressure upon his mental powers. Enlarged as the council would be by the addition of the members from Bombay and Madras, it would on that ac count, if not on general grounds, be extremely desirable that there should be no ambiguity with respect to the privileges of the Governor-General, who overruled the opinions of the council. lie believed that by a somewhat strained interpretation of the law, which it was alone for the Governor-General to make, he might now perhaps over rule the decisions of the mina, but that was a matter which should not be left in any doubt whatever, and the Governor-General should be enabled on all occasions to exercise that power, because he alone was responsible for his opinion and for the result of his conduct. There was also another matter which should be left without the smallest ambiguity, and that was the power of the Governor- Ganeral to leave his council and to proceed into the interior. Under the law of 1833, that had been done by resolution of the council, but in his opinion it was still in the power of the Governor-General to leave his council and act in the pro vinces by virtue of the authority he had by the law previous to 1833, as had been done by Lord Wellesley and others; but the question was one of such extreme importance that it should not be left till it was settled beyond all doubt. Per haps it might be advisable that he should say a word with regard to a question which was much agitated in India, and had been discussed at home—the change in the seat of Go vernment. He recollected very well in 1823 and 1830, when it had been his duty to consider what measures should be taken in that direction, having communicated with the Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington), then at the head of the Go vernment, on the subject, and he considered the reasoning of the Noble Duke for continuing the seat of Government at Calcutta at that time perfectly unanswerable. He had been asked, "Could not the Government be conducted from Simla?" " Yea," he had answered," just as the Government of Rome was conducted from Carthage, and with the same results." The Noble Lord (the Earl of Derby) had left him nothing to add in his description of the Court of Proprie tors. The 1,800 gentlemen who had votes in the Court re presented each their 1,000/. stock, and nothing else. They had no other connexion with India, and had no more to do with it than the proprietors of Bank or any other stock. He saw from an inspection of the East India Register the Noble Earl had somewhat overrated the number of native proprie tors in the Court. Omitting 335 with the letters " W. S." after their names—which meant " widow" and " spinster"— ( Laughter) -ard many gentlemen of the Jewish persuasion, some of whom having purchased stock to a considerable ex tent had four votes each, he had endeavoured to see what the proportion oi persons really connected with India was to the number of proprietors; and he feared that if he estimated them at 300, or one-sixth of the whole, he would go to the utmost possible extent. Now, let them consider not only the composition of the Court of Proprietors, but the manner in which the persons composing it were, distributed, and how they were under the influence of certain families and certain firms. They would see the result was that certain families and firms could practically decide the election of the direc tors ; and, as the constituency was so very numerous and scattered, no person desiring to be a director could gain ad mission to the board without having gone through the most elaborate and most disagreeable canvass, extending in general over a period of seven or eight years, and with out sustaining one defeat, or more. He remembered asking a friend of his why he took so much trouble to be a director, and the reply showed him the whole secret of the matter. "Why," said he, "my friends have been supporting me so long, they now expect me to go on that I may do some thing for them in consequence of their long adherence to me." In that answer their Lordships saw what was really the whole working of the system. And what were the results? He wished he could think they were what his Noble Friend stated. His Noble Friend said that twenty-one out of the thirty directors were of distinction in the service of India. Now, he (Lord Ellenborough) had bean ac quainted with the Indian service ever since 1823—his eye had never been off it—and he had given more attention to the names and persons engaged in it than most of their Lordships, and probably than most other persons; but, on referring to the list, he found there were only four out of the thirty directors who had any Indian reputation. He did not mean to say there were nut many respectable persons who, having been many years on the direction, had ob tained in England a certain knowledge of Indian affairs, but not one of them had been fit, when first appointed, and, whatever their knowledge now, it gave them no weight in India. They might have made one voyage to India, or have seen the country in a dauk journey, but, prac tically, they knew nothing of India; no one could have any confidence in their advice, and, when they adopted resolu tions, they had not that weight in India which would be given to them if the ccurt were really composed of Indians. He ventured to propose to his Lordship that he should con sider whether it might not be expedient very materially to extend the constituency by which the court was elected; and he thought he could show the representative body would be greatly improved by his suggestion. The directors of the East India company—a commercial company in a state of suspeuded animation—had no necessary connexion what ever with the government of India. He would willingly leave to the present proprietors of East India Stock, with the power of giving proxies and their other privileges, the right to vote for the election of directors. He would take every precaution for the due transmission to England of the necessary funds to pay interest on the stock and bonds, but the payment might be made by the Bank, just as well as the payment of the Three per Cents. He thought, however, it would be advisable and expelient that Indian experience should intervene in the election of the persons charged with the direction of Indian affairs • and, with that object, he proposed that, in a ddi t i on to the pro prietors of stock, all officers, civil or military, who h a d served in the native or European services, or the civil ser vice and courts of law for 10 years, should have votes for the election of the directors. All the relations between the Court of Directors and the Council of India would remain the same as now, and no alteration would take place be tween the Court of Directors and the Board of Control, but the Court itself would be elected by an enlarged constituency. The addition thus made would be equal to the present num ber of the constituents, and, considering the number of retired officers, and the persons on furlough, the elective body would just be doubled. The constituency would be greatly improved, as he thought, by receiving a thoroughly Indian character, and by its being extended so much that personal canvass would become impossible, and that persons desi rous of becoming, directors might be elect e d, not after a tedious delay, and on various grounds, but on the score of services, and at once, while their recollections of India were fresh, and their faculties vigorous and unimpaired. Another alteration he would suggest was, that the number of members constituting the Court of Directors should be reduced—from 24 to 12; not that he meant to say that no Cabinet Council consisting of 24 persons could by possibi lity transact business; or that no body of men exceeding 12 could with convenience transact business of a highly im portant, confidential, and political character. But he looked in this alteration for that which he thought should be the foundation, of all their improvements —an improvement in the administration of patronage. If the patronage were divided among twelve, instead of being distributed among twenty-four, what would be the consequence? Their Lord ships might recollect what was said by Lord Bacon —that charity, when dispersed, hardly watered the ground where it had first been a pool ;" so patronage, wheu dispersed, would hardly water the ground where it had first been a poo • 1 In this case there must be filled, not one pool only, but thirty pools, before there could be an overflow of patronage to be distributed among those who were deserving of it for the services they had rendered. Some of those pools were large indeed. He recollected looking over a list of persons on whom patronage had been bestowed, and he saw the names of fourteen gentlemen who all rejoiced in the same surname, and which was exactly the same name as that of one of the directors; and he bad not the slightest doubt that every one of them was a member of the same family. It was not only that those persons who were entitled to have this patronage exercised in their favour did not obtain it, but by the present system on which it was dispensed the relations of the 24 directors were scattered over the whole face of India, which most materially interfered with the due exercise of authority there. It was to enable those 12 per sons, with this much larger amount of patronage, to be dis tributed among those who deserved it, that he, among other reasons, proposed the reduction of the number of the Court of Directors. He had sometimes read in the newspapers accounts of the extraordinary liberality with which Mr. This or Mr. That had given his patronage to the son of this or that deserving officer. Now, he had seen a great deal of those officers, and had often heard their com plaints, and the expression of their utter hopelesseess of obtaining the least favour from the directors for the benefit of their families. He had known them leave India in a most desponding state of mind, because no provision was made for their children. He recollected a most striking case. It was that of an officer who had most ably di s ti ngu i shed himself in General Sir George Pollock 's army. H e was an officer on whom he (the Earl of Ellenborough) h ad felt it not only his duty but his privilege, as the Governor-General of India, to confer honour. He recollected that officer coming to him and saying to him,—"l cannot get a cadet ship for my only son ; all my desire is to get him into the service; I have made applications to the directors, but every one of them has been in vain ; and my son will now soon be of that age in which he will hardly be able to get a regiment in the Royal army." Such was the case of this meritorious officer. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had placed the case of this young man before his Noble Friend the Noble Duke ; and thus the case of the son of one of the most deserving officers in the company's service was at pre sent under the consideration of the Noble Duke, simply for the purpose of being permitted to purchase a commissio n in her Majesty's service, he having been unable to obtain an appointment from any of the directorsof the East India Com pany I What were the feelings of the father of that youth? His desire was to send his son to the scene in which he him self had acted so long and so meritorious a part ; but this he was debarred from doing by the present system of the dis tribution of patronage. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) trusted that the alteration which he proposed would obviate that evil. Again, he could see no reason whatever why a pro portion of the cadetships, and a proportion of the writerships, should not be saleable like commissions in her Majesty'a army at a fixed price. He could not understand why a practice should exist by which the whole of the aristocracy of Eng land, almost without exception—he did not mean their Lerdahips only, but all persons of the highest rank and for tune in the country, who did not happen to be acquainted with a directsr of the East India Company —that they and their sons should for ever be excluded from the most dis tinguished service to which any young man could aspire to belong. It seemed to him,to be a public wrong, and calcu lated to do great public mischief. But, happen what might, he thought it most desirable that at least one-fourth of the cadetships and writerships should be exposed to sale at a fixed sum. Let him not omit to say that he thought it not only highly expedient, but absolutely necessary, _that the Governor-General should have the power, or assigning his reasons, of taking officers from military service and placing them in the civil service of the Company. The total number of all the civil servants in India was about 800. Those gentlemen were generally the immediate relations and friends of the directors of the East India Company. They went to India to rise in succession, and at last to exercise the highest functions, whatever their fitness, in the govern ment of an empire containing, as kis Noble Friend had stated, 150,000,000 of people. It was contrary to reason that those 800 young men so selected should be capable of exe cuting those important duties. He held with Lord Wil liam Bentinck, who said that 800 angels could not per form the functions of Government in India under such cir cumstances. It was preposterous. But if the Governor- General had the power of selecting officers from the army to become civil servants, he would be able to avail himself not only of the services of those 800 persons, but of the services of more than 5,000, every one of whom would be competent to perform the duties required of him by the Government, he having been destined for such an office. In point of fact, the best administrators of Government in India had been mi litary men who bad risen in that country by means of having had intrusted to them the administration of con quered or ceded territories. He did not agree with those who thought that a portion of the cadetships and writer. ships should be offered as a rew ar d t o th e most distinguished. scholars in the schools belon g i ng t o t h e company. He said so on this ground, that the knowledge acquired fro was of no use in India. The giving of great user in the different schools might be of great to troops but it would be of greet disservice to Ina' the schools, If they had to select a boy to lead their ja.—(11"1.0 `itchlaeyr, notthe difficulties, would they take the best under most solitary bockworm the school, or wouldBC rather choose the boy who was moswthretuarkable for his in fluence over Iris schoolfellowe, and manage them ? There was notbi s that o h i t eew best how to which could be learned from bookng, - 0 would repeat it, man for a situation in India. That ashicheo wasu ld qualify India, besides a kno eledee of lrequiredaniyn dustry and au aptitude tor a T a i, g „ es :,, l% , ras , v a ti n untiring in were practically found to Jet' tow awn . Possess; but, required, was that which Id could not be gathered from books decision of character , m or al Raote mor. courage, fi r mness in the face of the public, and a determination, happen what might to himself, t o d o hi s d u t y a t once t o the c ou nt r y of his ' birth and also to the country of his adoption. Those were the qualities they wanted in India, but they were not to be met with merely among those w h o mos t distinguished themselves at school. H e confesse d h e f e lt a ver y deepin terest in the question then before their Lordships. He had made India the subject of his earliest thoughts, and that now for 21 years. He might, indeed, say that his whole public life had practically been devoted to India. He would tell them again that India had arrived at the most critical period of its history—at one of those periods in the history of a state in which it was absolutely necessary carefully to look back and carefully to l oo k f orward, in order to as certain whether those measures and that policy which had assisted, or at least had not impeded their progress, were likely to be equally efficacious for the purpose of preventing their fall. He felt satisfied that it was wholly on the spirit in which the government of India was conducted, on the temper in which its power was administered, on the consi deration with which they treated, not the native army only, but the whole of the native population, that it was on their perseverance in, and adherence to, those principles, and on their attention to the religion, and the prejudies, and the social habits of the people, by which hitherto their Govern ment in India had been permitted to exist,--and it was on these feelings and this conduct alone that that perilous em pire could be preserved. Perilous it was called by Lord Wellesley at a very early period of his acquaintance with India; much more perilous was it now. It was net one which had its roots in the affections of the people. It had not its roots in the perfection of its institutions. It exhibited nothing to the people which they could un derstand, or admire, or love. He was made deeply sensible of this even under the most favourable circum stances in which that Government could be presented to the natives of India. Ile did, therefore, entreat his Noble Friend. and he entreated their Lordships and the Parliament. when considering what should be done in this great emergency, and what constitution should be given to India for the pur pose of forming it, if they could, into an integral part of the British empire (for he could not bear to consider it possible that England should ever be separated from that country ; it was not yet separated, and never could be, if the same ability was used for preserving it as was used for obtaining it)— but he entreated their Lordship, when considering this great question, not to allow the mere matter of conve nience in carrying the measure through Parliament, or any consideration of matters which ought to be below the notice of high-minded statesmen when dealing with the future happiness of a great people,—he entreated them not to allow any considerations or feelings of that kind to pre vent them from doing that which was just by the people of India, that which was just by the people of England, and that which might make their name memorable tor ever in India, and establish their empire in the gratitude and affections of the people of that country for real blessings conferred. The motion was then agreed to; and On the motion of the Earl of DERBY, the following Noble Lords were nominated to the Committee, viz. :—The Lord Privy Seal, the Marquis of Lansdowne, the Marquis of Normanby, the Marquis of Tweeddale, the Duke of Mon. trose, the Earl of Derby, E ar l G rey , the Earl of Harrow by, the Earl of Ellenborough, Earl Stradbruke, Earl Delaware, the Earl of Powis, the Earl of Mansfield, the Earl of Carlisle, the Earl of Albemarle, Viscount Hardioge, Viscount Gough, Viscount Canning, the Bishop of Oxford, Lord Colchester, Lord Broughton, the Duke of Argyll, Lord Ashburton, Lord Colville, Lord Elphinstone, Lord Glenelg, Lord Stanley of Alderley, Lord Wodehouse, Lord Monteagle, the Marquis of Sligo, and Lord Monteagle of Brandon. On the motion of the Earl of LONSDALE, the Indemnity Bill was read a second time. GRANT TO THE COLLEGE OF MAYNOOTII. The Earl of ALBEMARLE rose to ask the Noble Earl the First Lord of the Treasury, whether her Majesty's Go vernment contemplated any change of policy with regard to the maintenance of the College of Maynooth. The grant to Maynooth College rested upon an annual vote in the miscel• laneous estimates of about 8,000/. or 9,000/. until 1845, when the vote was converted by Act of Parliament into a perma nent charge upon the consolidated fund. This measure ori ginated with a Government of which the Noble Earl (Derby) was one of the most distinguished members. The subject was very maturely and very deliberately considered. It oc cupied fourteen nights' debate iu the House of Commons, and five nights' debate in their Lordships' House. On the third night in that House the last speaker was the Noble Earl now at the head of her Majesty's Government. The late Earl Charleville had, i n th e course of the debate, said that the Government should not abuse his confidence, and he reminded the Noble Earl that he (the Earl of Charle ville) was one of those who bad p l aced him in 'power. The Noble Earl, at that time sitting under another title in that House, expressed the regret h er Majesty's Ministers would feel in losing the confidence of those who had called that Government to power, but that those considerations would not weigh so much on the minds of the Government as the still higher duty which they owed to their country and their God. The Noble Earl closed that speech —a speech which occupied ten pages of Hansard—by calling upon the House, as statesmen and as Christians, to pass that measure. He had mentioned this to show the deep interest which was at that time felt by the Noble Earl on the subject of the Maynooth grant. Under other circumstances he should have considered the question of which he (the Earl of Albemarle) had given notice to have been one of superero gation, if it had not been fur the suspicion which appeared to have been conveyed to the public mind, and for the distrust and uncertainty which prevailed concerning almost all the measures contemplated by the present Government. Her Majesty's Ministers seemed to want a fixity of purpose and of principle. There seemed a tendency on their parts to shift off the responsibility from their own shoulders, and to leave all questions to be carried by agitation out of doors. It was for this reason that he came forward to ask the question of the Noble Earl. But perhaps it would have ben unnecessary for him to put the question, but from the ambiguous and unsatisfactory answer which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given to a Similar question in the other House of Parliament. What he (the Earl of Albemarle) wished to elicit from the Noble Earl was some distinct acknowledgment of his policy; because it appeared to him that the question of the Maynooth grant came under the same category as that of free trade in corn.—(Laughter.) He considered they were both placed up to a public bidding, and were to bo knocked down to the highest bidder. In the case of corn the question was put to the Protectionists and Free-traders of this country ; and as to the grant to Maynooth, it was put to the Catholics and Procestdnts of Ireland. The one wag an appeal to the En glish constituency, the other an appeal to the Irish consti tuency. But her Maje s ty' s G overnment would have some difficulties to encounter on both questions. What said the Secretary to the Treasury to his supporters? The report stated that the speaker (meaning the Secretary to the Trea sury) then referred t o hi s votes on the Maynooth grant, and stated his determination i n f uture to give his unqualfied op position to any grant to the Romish Church that might be proposed in any mode whatever, whenever, and by whom soever. He would ask the Noble Earl at the head of the Government whether that was the language of a subordinate or an insubordinate officer ?—(Laughter. ) The Noble Earl concluded by putting his question. The Earl of DERBY —The Noble Earl will excuse me if I do not think it necessary to follow him in the reasons which he has given for patting this question to me. I shall confine myself simply to answering that question. I beg to state to the Noble Earl that her Majesty's Government has no present intention of proposing to Parliament any interference with the Act which was passed to grant an endowment to the College of Maynooth in the year 1845. The Noble Earl must allow me to add, and I do it with great regret—that the highly objectionable course which has been pursued by a large body of the Roman Catholic cl ergy i n Ireland, and the aggressive attitude which they of late years have taken, have added materially to the difficulty of defending an en dowment which was intended for the purpose of maintaining peace and goodwill, for the purpose of binding the clergy of the Church of Rome to the State by ties of gratitude for material assistance afforded them; g rat i tude fur the good will shown towards them ; in short, f or t h e purpose of bind ing them by the ties of loyalty, contentment, and peace fulness.—(Hear, hear.) Their Lordships then adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, April 2. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS. Tho two following Bills were read a third time and passed:— Barnsley Gas Bill. Bristol and Liter Railway (Yeovil Branch) Bill. The following Bills were considered and ordered to be engrossed:— British Empire Mutual Life Assurance Company Bill. Derby Gas Bill. Lancaster Waterworks Cemetery and Gas Bill. Medina River Navigation Bill. METROPOLIS WATER BIL Viscount EBRINGTON moved that L the petition of members of the Metropolitan Sanitary Asso ciation, being water consumers and ratepayers within the metropolis, be referred to the Committee on the Metropolis Water. Supply Bill; and that it be an instruction to the said Committee to hear the parties who have signed the said petition, in pursuance of the prayer thereof; and that the said petitioners be exempted from the payment of fees. That the following Members be added to the Committee on the said Bill:—Lord John Manners, Sir J.Johnstone, Sir W. Clay, Mr. Mowatt, Mr. Lushington, Mr. Cochrane, and Viscount Ebrington, The Noble Lord slid if he consulted his own conveni ence he should take no further trouble in this matter, but it was for the interest of the public that this motion should be made; and with the consent of his colleagues in the former Commission of Sewers he now brought the subject again before the House. Mr. MO WATT seconded the motion. Mr. WILSON PATTEN resisted it, and declared that the motion o ug ht t o h ave b een made last year, before the subject was r e f erre d to the consideration whetheritttheeeB: of a Select Committ ee . Thi s mot i on, in fact, came too late, and he, theref o r e , h o p e d t h e House would not e; ueothideer c con sent to upset all th a t h a d yet b een done intoholisuT.att It ty was,tl ie Committe ehowever, f for rf tthe use to do Selection o and took a different vie w t o t h e C ommittee of Sol if the Noble L or d p ersevered with the m ' Selectio n ) , and certainly divide up on it. motion he should Lord SEYMOUR was also of opinion 1' whi h that the moti on was intended to r e - open a question year and he sh ou ld t h erefore onn -°••• Wlie settled la s t Mr. MO WATT sa id , all the r e " it. was to report against the Goeer -oromittce did last year broke up before it had Closed meet scheme, and as it termination of the session h its labours, owing to the, stand why the motionsh ' e was at a loss to under in his opinion, was onid be opposed. 'The 'notion, a perfectly reasonable proposition, and until hey was some stronger reasons against it than had yet lPen Mr. B. D E mTc , urged he sho u ld g i ve it his.sapport. Oared that thede. house would be guilty of an act of great injustice if they agreed to it. Lord J, MANNERS hoped the resolution would not be Persevered with, and then the House would have a chance of receiving an excellent and conclusive report upon this water question before the close of the session. After a few words from Viscount EBRINGTON the motion was negatived without a division. PETITIONS. Sir J. HOPE presented a petition against the May. nootb grant. Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition. from Lincoln College, to be exempted f r o m th e operation of L9rd MELGUND pre sen t e d a pet i t i on from Glasgow the ol Cegnea'r praying itabl ' r rusts Bill. in favour of sPeular education. Mr. B. SMITH presented a petition in favour of ()van p'nnv postage, Mr. REY:\ OLDS oresentA t wo pr,titions from ~ ,anty, in favour of th, T. night Bill. Mr. J. CLAY p resente d a petition from Hull against the Charitable Trusts Act. STAFFORD presented a petition from a place io Northamptonshire complaining of agricultural distret. and prayiez for relief. Mr. SLANEY presented a large numbs,.' of Petitio 09 from various parts of the country in favour oft hei legalising industrial partnerships; also, a pet. '"in c (n the inhabitants of Brentfold, p r aying for a r. the law rplating to the transfer and mortgage of " 1110 . Mr. MILES presented a paition against the Maj grant. _ . Mr. LIE ADL AM presented a petition from the lot prated Law Society, praying for the repeal of tto attorneys' cPitificate duty (Ili we understood). Alr. MO W A.TT presented a petition from Fslmot tth against tie Militia Bill. Mr. lIUME presented a petition from St. Andre WS against the Bill for reducing the number of councill re in Scotch boroughs. Lord JOtiN RUSSELL presented several petition 16 fiom Essex in favour of the repeal of the malt-tax. Mr. NEWDEG ATE presented a petition from th Protestant Association, against the Maynooth grant, am similar petitions from various places in Warwickshire. Lord HARRY VANE presented two petitions from Stockton, one against the Militia Bill, and the other in favour of ocean penny postage. Lord DUDLEY STUART presented a petition from Marylobone, praying fur the repeal of all taxes on knowledge. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that on Monday ho should put a question to the Chancellor of the Exche quer on the subject of our relations with Brazil and the free navigation of the River Plate. Mr. HUME gave notice, that in the event of Mr. Spooner's motion against the continuance of the May nooth grant being carried, he would move for a return of the moneys paid out of the Consolidated Fund for the education of all religious sects in Ireland, and also the income of the Established Church in that cotintry since 'B5O, and the number of persons belonging to it. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. In answc , r to a question by Mr. MOORE, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said be would fix the Charitable Trusts Bill for the first day on which Parlia ment would reassemble after the holidays. THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Ur. REYNOLDS inquired of the Chancellor of the Exchequ. , r when he intended to make his ;al uncial statetr.vnt. His reason for asking the question Iva s. that the great majority of the Irish ktrmbPrs were not likely to be in attendanne until four or five days sift er the Hou,e ie-issemblcd aqer Easter. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was his intention, as soon as possible, Co malt a that financial statement, and when the House met cig. ;in he should probably be able to fix a day; but he wou it i take care that fair notice was given to the Members Ire laud, in urder that they might be present on the• (ma* sion.—(A laugh.) THE MILITIA BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL shed the Secretary for the:Some Department when the Militia Bill would be deliver x d to Members, and when the Government intended to pr a.aeed with the ,eeond readi , g? Mr. WALPOLE said he had brought down the Bill, and tie proposed to read it a first time to-night, at ti 10 appoint the second reading for the 19th, the first day after the rtcess. SUPPLY. In reply to another question from the NOBLE LORI ), The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER s aid he propos( dat present to go into Committee of S. IP ply ou Menday next, when he would move t he vote for the Kafir war. His Right Hon. Friend had stat that on the 19,h, the day of meeting, they propesed to t.ko the second reading of the Militia Bill.—(Chee is anti Hear ) They did that for the purpose of facilittuit g public toeiness, but when they attemwed to faciltta public business they always met with opposition. AGRARIAN OUTRAGE IN CAVAN. Sir W. YOUNG read a threatening letter, which ha d been received by a person in the county of Cavan, sign( d " Molly Maeguire," and inquired whether the Govern - ment had received any information from tho police o such threatening notices being served on parties, anti 1 also of the spread of the ribbon system in Cavan? Mr. NAPIER said he had made inquiry into the mat- • ter, and he found that information was received every day from Ireland, but it was not forwarded to bim ex cept there was some special matter which required his attention. He had no doubt a system of threatening was spreading widely in Ireland, and that chore, was a determination to establish a reign of terror is th. country, so as to int*.rcept the rights of property; be .t the attention of the Government was directed to tb subject, and there were no resources at their comrade d which they would not speedily use to put an end t 0 such a state of things.—(Cheers.) OFFICIAL SALARIES. Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that on Monday he ghoul, ask if the recommendation of the halaries Committe 9 had been carried out in reference to the Chief Secretarl for Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER coul I answer the question now. All the recommendations ha , been carried out, and particularly in reference to the in . stance to which the Hon. Member referred. NAGE. Mr. E WART wished CO to I i nquire of the Chancellor of? the Exchequer whether there was a prospect of the coin , called the florin (of 23. value) being re-issued, espe-. cially as a means of approximating to a decimal system of coinage? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said her Majesty had approved of the new florin, and en Order in Council for its coinage was agreed to on the 4th ultimo, and it was hoped that in about two months, 200,000 florins would be ready for issue to the public. ORKNEYS. Mr. ANDEUSON asked me o...etai I of eh. Tract sury why a return relative to the management of the Crown estate in Orkney (ordered by a resolution of the House on the 31st of July last year) had not yet been made, and when it would be presented. Mr. HAIIILTON apologised for the delay which had taken place in making the return, but it was of a com plicated and expensive character, and would take some little time longer to prepare it. RAMSGATE HARBOUR. Sir GEORGE PECHELL wished to ask the Hon. Member fur the city of London, who had charge of the Ramsgate Harbour Bill, whether it was intended to retain the clauses imposing a toll on vessels passing by the harbour, Mr. MASTERMAN said it was the intention of the Commissioners to retain their powers . LORD DERBY AND MR. COBDEN. On the motion that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday, Mr. COBDEN rose and said he wished to make an explanation to the House on a subject of a rather . personal character. He had received a letter from Lord Derby complaining of a statement which he (Mr. Cobden) made the other night when the ballot was under discussion, to the effect that in 1835 the Noble Lord declared that if the ballot should be carried he, as a landlord, should not be satisfied unless he saw his tenant put his ticket into the box at the election. The statement was taken from Hansard, but the Noble Lord said the Mir ror of Parliament contained a more authentic report of the speech which he made in the House in 1835, and on referring to that publication, he (Mr. Cobden) found that what the Noble Lord really said was, that if the ballot were carried there might be some landlords who would not be satisfied unless they saw their servants place the ticket in the ballot-b,ie," and believing the Mirror, of whose existence at so remote a date he was ignorant until the Noble Lord called his attention to it, to be more accurate than Hansard, he begged to withdraw the statement which he made the other ni ght — (Cheers)—and also the strictures which he felt called upon to found upon it.—(Cheers.) It would appear that when the Noble Lord made the speech reported in the Mirror, he a d not himself b ut some i maginary landlord in vi h ew, and, therefor e , i n w i thdrawing the strictures which he passed the other night upon the Noble Lord, he wished it to be understood that he did so for the purpose of transfering them from the Noble Lord to the ima ginary landlords which the Noble Lord had in his mind's very Mr. handsomeW A LPO e L x E p i took a na ti o t n h e t% libertya s very eye, when he made the speech in 1835.—(A laugh,) ( G e o h v e e e r r n s m .) ent ilo a w s he was atshesurr: mistake.would be to the House.— were known, he was sure the character of the al fac ts of ff satis f actory sta i i a ilg pa pardo nable d h o ta n t a tt b hh l ee e Noble Lord at the remain untarnished me a d f the Government would as before.--(Chee r), a 0 his reputation as unblemished The subject then dropped. miu ild BILL. Mr. GIBSON Wished know when it was proposed to move th e s eeond reading of the Militia Bill? The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said when he he th e a dj ourn ment of the House f or t h e holidays he Would state to the House what arrangem en t s Government proposed to make with regard to the dis patch of private business, and of course in making those arr angements the convenience of the House would not be lost sight of.—(Dear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT thought the day milt to be fixed now. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said then he would fix it for Friday, the 23d of April. VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE. Mr. W YLD wished to ask the Hon. Baronet the Mem ber for the University of Oxford and Chairman of the Ventilation Committee, if the Committee had received a report from Mr. Gurney on the subject of ventilating the House, and whether anything would be done dur ing the recess to improve the state of the House a —(fiear.) Sir R. 11. INGLIS said the lion. Member bad made an extraordinary mistake. Ho was not a member of the Committee, let alone the chairman.—(Laughter.) Lord PALMERSTON said ho was on the Committee, and he would take care that the question was communi cated to the Chairman. —(Hear, hear.) THE DISSOLUTION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was highly desirable that the business of the House should be expedited in the present state of affairs, but he could have no ob jection to the postponement of the Militia Bill, though when it was read a second time he hoped it (Hwould be pressed forward as hastily as possible.-- ear, I ear.) He was averse, because he felt the inconvenience of such a course, to referring to conversations which had passed elsewhere, but tbo House must be aware that on a former oc casein he induced his friends to t h row no obstacles in the way of voting the supplies, upon the understanding t h at when the pressing business of the country was disposed of her Majesty's present Ministers w ould be prepared to advise an immediate dissolution. From wh at occurred, however, the other night else where, t app eare d that he and his friends had been mis tskeu in that understandin Lr; and es no Ip.s than 14 of.lo 000/, of the public ay..: oy in.d b. en Ir•Jid , iti:uut o:,i _l,it 0, z. ! ;:m o.e fa , ,Th ~f that un derstanding, ne begged io give notice that before they again went into Committee of Supply on Monday Boma satisfactory explanation would be required 011 this 1 iutittori.s-(Chests.) 1 THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 3, 1852,