The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 25. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his seat on the Woolsack at Fire o'clock. ROME. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from the congregation of St. Matthew's, Glasgow, against diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome. THE NAVIGATION LAWS. Th© 14:TriLE DUKE also presente 1 a number of petitions from shipowners and sailors of Liverpool, Montrose, and other places, in favour of these laws. The Noble Duke said he could not conceive how any Minister, in the present state of Europe, could be wild enough to propose any alteration in these laws, because he believed the stability of the country materially depended upon their maintenance. It was unnecessary for him to add that he should vote against any proposition for their abrogation. ROME. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from a place in Devon against diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome. NAVIGATION LAWS. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition, signed by 6,000 of the shipowners, merchants, and sailors of Liverpool against any alteration in these laws. The petitioners hoped at least that no melsure on the subject would be introduced until the fullest inquiry had been made as to the operation of these laws. The Noble Lord also presented a petition to the same effect, signed by 500 persons, from Bideford, as we understood. The Earl of lIARDIVICKE presented a number of petitions to the same effect from London, Shields, Exeter, Scarborough, Belfast, Sunderland, and other places. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES. Lord BEAUMONT and the Marquis Of LANSDOWNE presented petitions from societies of Oddfelbws, in Manchester and other places, praying that the pro visions of the Friendly Societies' Act might be ex tended to them. NAVIGATION LAWS. The Earl of HARDIVICKE then, in pursuance of notiee, proceeded to move for a Committee of Inquiry into the operation of these laws. The Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) had kindly intimated to him that he should not object to the motion for the appointment of the inquiry he proposed, but as the question was so important, he felt that he should not dis charge his duty if he did not enter into some details. These laws were so mixed up with a number of trades, and so much diversity of opinion prevailed upon the matter, that without inquiry it would be utterly impossible to legislate upon them, because they would thereby be enabled to obtain the opinion of competent persons.—(llear.) Much dissatisfaction prevailed out of doors at the opinion of the Government with respect to these laws. As late as the lath of last March, the Ship owners' Society had been informed by the Govern ment that it was not their intention to interfere with the navigation-laws. But a change came over the Government, for on the 23d of November it was first intimated that a change was intended. The intimation was given to the people of this country, though a correspondence that had taken place at the time between the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) and Air. Bancroft, the American Minister. The corre spondence was published in the newspapers; and he asked them if it was right that the people of England should have first received information of the intended change through the columns of a newspaper, and, further, whether the Noble Lord had not violated the laws of the country by the course he had adopted ? Not only had the country been deceived, but the Foreign Minister was pledged to the people of the United States that these laws should be repealed, and he thought that was clearly illegal. Before the Committee of the House of Commons on the subject of the navigation-laws the evidence was one-sided, twenty- five witnesses being ex amined in favour of a repeal of these laws, and only nine against, and the Committee had made no report; and this surely was a reason for the appointment of a Com mittee of their Lordships. There were other circum stances connected with this Committee which rendered it unfair. A distinguished naval officer, on the day he was to have arrived to take a part before the Committee In favour of the continuance of these laws, was sum moned away at the call of duty. A statistical paper on the subject of the navigationelaws had excited much attention and been laid hold of by the free-traders. Mr. Porter had endeavoured to show, in the paper in questioa 4 the great ,advantages of an unprotected trade ; but the stlttementa in that paper were false.—(Hear, hear.) Be gave a list of places under the protected trade, and a list of places which he said were free, and comparing the teturns in 1824 with tho s e in 1846, he made it appear that the increase in the former had been at the rate of 25 per cent.; whilst the latter had been 182 per cent.; but in point of fact, the ships of other states with whom reciprocity treaties existed had no right to transfer the goods of foreign countries to this kingdom; and in truth the whole trade was a protected trade when regarded in this light. This applied to China, Mexico, France. and other plaees put down on the side of free trade, and the calculation was therefore most erroneous. The Noble ierd pointed out other errors in the returns of a similar nature, and stated there was no doubt that the increase of the whole tonnage had been under the protective laws. It had been stated by the Noble Lord opposite that it would be an advantage to the West Indians to make a obange in the navigation-laws; but, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the West Indians scouted the ides. If the freights were reduced, say 2.5 per cent., from the West Indies, they would also be lowered in the same ratio from the East Indies, the Mau ritius, and other places, and the reduction in the rate of freight would produce no sensible alteration in the price of cotton or tea. But the fact was, the Noble Marquis was the driver of a theory which was perilling the best interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Was it not so ? Need he point to the state of our import and ex port trade—to our cotton manufactures—to the West India trade—and to our finances, in proof of the asser• tion9—(Hear, hoar.) From 1842 to 1846 there had been a deficit of 33,000,000/. in our export, as compared with the import trade. Then, as to the cotton trade, taking 16 months at the end of 1845, and comparing that period with the 16 months ending January, 1843, the total loss of cotton eeeports to the manufacturers, who we re so anxious to get cheap sugar, had been about 1,100,0001. I - 1e thought, therefore, there was abundant reason for the appointment of the Committee for which he asked, and that the subject should be put before the country again and again, until they were satisfied of the danger of the policy of free trade to our commercial prospects. The policy pursued from 1700 to this time had raised the shipping from 218,000 to at this moment 3,800,000 tons, and he was convinced that the only safe course was to pursue the system whith had produced such a result.—(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that if the American trade were opened it would ruin our colo nial trade, which at present employed 40,000 seamen. While the smallest benefit would bo gained by this country we were about to give the American commercial navy advantages that would ruin us. We could not compete with America in this respect; they would bring our tea from China, and load back to the United States with cotton. Was there no example? Why, in the South So whale fishery, since the bounty had been taken away in 1824, end t,he reduction of the protecting duty on sperm oil frona:e3o/. to 151. in 1840 (which duty would altogether ceask in the present year) the Americans had beaten us out of the market; and, in fact, the cost of their ships and (heir men enabled them at all times to compete with us to certain advantage. Then, as to our reciprocity trade. If we referred to those countries with which we had reciprocity treaties the result would show thee they had operated greatly to our disadvantage. Another subject to which he wished to direct atten tion, was that if the shipowner were allowed to build where he could do so at the cheapest rate, we should soon lose our private dockyards, which were almost as important (referring to the subject of Rational defences) as the mercantile navy iteelt. With those merchant yards, which had produced a very large proportion of our military shipping in tote last war, we should also lose the numerous artisans whom they employed. It must be expected that our shipowners would hare re course to foreign shipbuilders and foreign yards, where they Gould obtain their vessels at a much cheaper rate. In the United States ships could be built at 17 per cent. less than in this country; in Holland 20 per cent. less, in F a cent, e9 2 2 per cent. less, in D enmar k an d N orway 31 per less, in' Bremen 37 per cent. less, in Prussia 45 p_e_r_ell_t u - e lesl ; _and in Finland 51 per cent. less. If that iwnecr6o:petitionhat withchatnhcous ba d the fo th re e ig ß il ri o t o is u h ntr s i h os ip ? ow A ne o r d s what benefit would it be t 9 t o ho thi s country to find in times of necessity the ya r d s of she relativi?eshipowners dismantled? But this would not be all. e must admit foreign sea as,eforelileownse,rah x re p r enses of British and sea men also. Now, a year, each being supposedforeignships h have the or of officers and the same number of seamen es they had at present i—At t his time a British ship of 500 tons cost 6501, year; an Swede,669l. 3a9sDl.7teahodashipß,re6m4oe/n.;eeassol, Prussian 471/. American ship, m alin; 8854 , i be merchant seamen, remem b ered, were the class fibm which the naval marine of this country was drawn. Abandon the mercantile marine, and we must a b an d on the navy of England , for in time . of war it w ou ld be utterly impossible ever to man it . If theft. Lo r d s hi ps, therefore, were determined to have an effective navy, if they desired to hare a certain way of manning that navy in time of war, and if the country wished to have the protec tion navy estimates, they must maintain t tion and the monopoly which the British shipowner a. present enjoyed. The Noble Lord concluded by sub mitting his motion. Earl GREY said, as their Lordships were already in formed, it was not the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to oppose this motion. The motion might not be necessary, but, at any rate, it could do no harm, and it was fits belief that the more information their Lordships had the better they would be enabled to deal with any mt o miser% her Majesty' s G overnmen t m i g h t h ave h erea f ter penes°. Haynie said this, ho should be without Justification if he were to follow the Noble Lord through hie various remarks. As there was to be an inquir3 • , and a measure was here a fter to oome bef o r e th em , th ere wits no necessity nowfor a discussion. He was quite willing to leave the s peech of th e N o bl e L ord without a reply. Th ere was n against the Noble Lord' s odneeessity to w arn th e country the abstract, nor d enunciations o f f ree tra d e i n to follow him th rough many of them v ery erroneous, for their considerati on . weelse v i shich he had opened the proper time arrived, they wouldonllZ sAy, that when no doubt, very clearly to demonstrateabk, as he had in terests of the shipowners h ere were not boundth!" thla the protection she Noble Lord had up w i t h advocated. With THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1846. respect to the colonies, however, when the Noble Lord said that protection was necessary to the colonies, he would take leave to observe that on that point the Noble Lord was entirely at issue with the colonists themselves. When the Noble Lord also said that the Government had changed their views upon this subject, he must beg to say that he thought he had brought forward that charge without sufficient evidence. Lord Clarendon had merely informed the deputations to which the Noble Lord alluded, that it was not intended to propose a change to Parliament during the last seon. his pledge did not in any way affect the course to be taken at a fu ture period. Then the Noble Lord had referred to certain correspondence published in America. Now, if that correspondence was rightly read, it would resolve itself into a general expression to the American Minister, to the effect that the Government believed a mutual arrangement with regard to shipping would be of benefit to both countries. That was not a statement which ought to subject them to the Noble Lord's censure. But then the Noble Lord complained of the mode in which a Com mittee appointed in the other House upon this subject had been selected, and the way in which their inquiries had been conducted. Now he must say that he did not think it a convenient course to discuss in that II( use how the House of Commons conducted an inquiry. For his own part, he must say that he believed the inquiry in the Commons had been conducted with strict justice, and with the most scrupulous care.—(oh.) It always happened on inquiries of such a sort, that more witnesses were examined upon one side than upon the other, and nothing could be fairer than the whole arrangements respecting the examinations in the case to which he alluded. Another point on which he must say a word, was the charge made against Mr. Porter, whom the Noble Lord had declared to have made a statement which he said to be " false."—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Now what did that charge of falsehood resolve itself into? Nothing else than an erroneous deduction. Mr. Porter's figures were all correct; but he took a view of them in which the Noble Lord did not agree. Ile had oaly to add that he was perfectly willing the Com mittee should be appointed, and that he was very sanguine indeed in his anticipations that the result would be to afford strong evidence in favour of the measure proposed hereafter to be submitted. The Earl of ELLENBORI)UGII expresszd his gra tification that her Majesty's Government did not object to the Committee. When the Noble Lord, however, said that the present law had been very injurious to the mercantile navy of the country, ho was led to infer the measure the Government would propose would be cal culated greatly to improve that law. If such were the case, he trusted the House would considar no Bill that had not for its object greatly to increase the trade and the importance of our mercantile marine.—(Hear.) lie should come to its consideration with that principle firmly fixed in his mind, and determined to give his sup port to no other measure whatsoever. With respect to the colonists he was not surprised that those who looked merely to the cheapening the carrying trade of the country were disposed to support an alteration of the navigation-laws ; but shipowners had to look at the matter in a different point of view, and it was their view that he should be most desirous to consult. The Noble Lord who brought forward this motion had referred to returns relating to tho amount of tonnage of different nations. Those returns ho (Lord Ellenborough) thought exceedingly fallacious, and he thought it would be necessary to have very diff !rent returns upon this head. There was also some revision required in the present state of our liw with reference to apprentices. He thought the state of our law at present was calcu lated to throw a large number of able-bodied seamen out of employ, by enforcing the employment of too great a number of apprentices. He should be much surprised if inquiries upon these points did not prove that twos ninths of the seamen on whom we at present relied were only apprentices, and a large number of those under 20 years of age. This might be one cause of so large a num ber of cur seamen being at present in the American marine. If the return was correct which gave 112,000 as the number of sailors in American employ, it was shown that of those 112,000 no less than 100,000 were fo• reigners.—(Hear, hear.) How many of these were British subjects he could not tell, but of course a very great proportion, and this was a most formidable con. sideration. In conclusion, he impressed on their Lord ships the great importance of sustaining our mercantile marine, and said that he felt strongly that should a war ever again break out with this country it would be necessary to resort again to impressment. He had read a number of crotchetty pamphlets urging a regis tration of seamen as an efficient measure for manning the navy; but when he recollected that we should want in our fleet one half the entire number of our merchant seamen, he felt sure that nothing but the impressment of seamen would avail. It must be remembered, more over, that our system of warfare, in consequence of the adoption of steam, was now altered; and that whilst we carried our attacks into the ports of the enemy, we must also have a sufficient force to protect ourselves at home from similar attacks. The motion was then agreed to. Their Lordships adjourned at twenty minutes past Seven. DOUSE OF COMMONS. Feb.2s. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. IIIE DUBLIN CORPORATION PARLIA MENTARY FUND. The order for the second reading of this Bill was discharged. LOUGH CORRIB IMPROVEMENT COMPANY. This Bill was also read a second time and passed. LAMBETH WATER-WORKS. Jr. PEARSON presented two petitions in favour and one against the Lambath Water-works Bill. Alderman HUMPIIERY presented a petition also in favour of the Bill. Sir W. MOLESIVORTII presented a petition in favour of the Bill. LANCASTER ELECTION COMMITTEE. Mr. DEEDES, as Chairman of the Lancaster Election Committee, reported that Mr. James Dodson had answered satisfactorily all the questions put to him, and he therefore moved that he be discharged out of tho custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms without payment of fees. Motion agreed to. NATIONAL DEFENCES. Petitions against any increase of the war establish ments of the country were presented by Mr. Redhead Yorke, from York ; by Mr. Evelyn Denison, from Melton; by Mr. Richard Cobden, from Bromsgrove ; and by Mr. G. Thompson. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Petitions against the admission of the Jews into Parliament were presented by Lord G. Manners, from Cambridge; by Mr. Spooner, and by Major Beresford. the table of the House an account of the expenditure of the said loan ; also, whether the 420,0001. of the China money de tained at the Cape, might be taken as a deduction from the 1,100,0001. expended in carrying on the Kafir war. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that the whole amount received as the produce of the loan, had been carried to the Consolidated Fund. Last year he stated that the advances to Ireland had been about 10,000,0001. Up to the present time he found that a sum of about 9,000,0001. had been advanced in the way of loan or grant to Ireland. A balance of 1,000,0001. was, therefore, available for other Irish purposes. With respect to the la ter part of the question he found that the advances from the Commissariat chest had been so heavy that he had not as yet been able to draw anything from it. If the vote hG should propose to-night would be granted he would then be able to draw on the Commissariat for the amount of the China money, which could be made available for the purposes of this year. LOANS (IRELAND). In answer to a question put by Col. CONOLLY, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that the amount of loans made to Ireland was 4,450,0001., and that the grants amounted to 4,270,000/. _ _ In answer to a question put by Mr. E. DEN • NISON, The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said that the 1,000,000/. remaining in hand would be avail able for carrying out the provisions of several Bills passed last session for the purpose of granting loan, for the improvement of land, and for the settlement of some still outstanding accounts in the Commis sariat Department. ing, nothing to do. If all these things were attended o r , e not se, thewithout a duties, for instance, which pressed heavily on the poor might in crease, only but m m a i n g 3 h might taxes—the the income-tax window be removed. On the grounds he had stated he asked b t e a x l , cf and t the House not to agree to one item of the estimates until after the debate of Monday evening. The Hon. Nlenaber concluded by moving, " That it is expedient that the expenditure of the country should be reduced, not only to render an increase of taxation in this session unnecessary, but that the expenditure should be further reduced as speedily as possible, to admit of a reduction of the present large amount of taxation." Mr. 'WARD said, that as his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had thrown a large portion of blame on the naval estimates, and as he (Mr. Ward) had not had an opportunity of making a statement to the House on be half of the naval department, perhaps he could not take a better one than the present for calling the attention of the House to a few circumstances bearing on the ques tion. What he wished to put to the House was this : There had been great additions to the estimates, no doubt, during the last ten years, without a single divi sion against any increased expenditure —(hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend was in his place when he (Mr. Ward) announced the intention of Government to add 1,500 to the marine force. They were voted last year without e dissentient voice or a division ; and it was only when they came to pay the bill that faults were found with the amount of the naval expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he made every allowance for the altered position of the country, and the distress prevailing in the great mercan tile community, and he knew that great pressure was exercised on such Members of that House as repre sented large constituencies. But he contended that good reasons could be given for the increase in the naval esti mates, and that the country had had good value for the money expended.—(Hear, hear.) Ho was prepared to say that when the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth commenced that large expendi cure which the present Government were only following up, he wts consulting the real interests and safety of the country.—(Hear, hear.) lie would now call the attention of the House to the three principal votes in the naval estimates. For works in 1835, the sum ex pended was 62,4401. That vote had been increasing annually; it was in 1843-44, 214,0001.; in 1844-45, 298,0001.; in 1845-46, 486,0001.; in 1846-47, 527,8101.; and in 1847-48, the present vote, it had increased to 668,0001., showing an apparent addition of 140,0001. lie said an apparent addition, because the whole of the new works were included in one vote instead of being spread over four, as had previously been the practice.—(Hear, hear.) The item of stores had increased in an equal proportion. From 426,0001 in 183.5-36 they had increased to 1,511,0001. during the present year, and dockyard works precisely in the same ratio. The reason of all this was that during the last few years a new power had come into existence, for which this country was bound to provide, not only by substituting steam-vessels for sailing vessels, but by bui'ding clocks and factories where such works could be carried on—those splendid establishments which the Right Hon. Baronet had commenced, and the present Government hail completed with the consent and appro bation of the House of Commons.— (Hear.) The country had paid for steam machinery alone 2,689,0001, which, with stores, accounted for three and a half millions at once. The dockyards, which, in 1833 were in a state of destitution, had been renovated until no more magnifi cent establishments could now be found in any part of the world.—{hear.) We had magnificent steam facto ries, besides steam basins at Portsmouth and Devonport, all of which he maintained were necessary to the existence of such a steam navy as was imperatively required by such a country as this, on the principle that every country should look to its own interest and its own safety. That was what the present Government had clone. It was felt that it would be most perilous to be without a steam navy in the possible contingency of a rupture with any foreign country. Neither could proper places fur repair of crippled vessels be dispensed with, nor had they been complained of, until now that the [louse was called upon to pay the bill.—(Hear, hear.) Now, instead of treating the matter as any railway company would have treated it, that was to say, as en investment of capital, the House merely looked upon it as an increase in the votes. lie contended that it was merely so much money capitalised. Taking out what was necessary for the repairs of dockyards, there was half a million invested in great national establishments. Neither were these confined to this country. We had a large establishment at Malta, where the steamers could be repaired, instead of being sent home for that purpose. This was a measure which would result in great economy of money.—(Hear, hear.) He repeated, then, that this country had received value for the money which had been expended. If it could be shown that these establishments were unnecessrry, that England would have been secure without following the same course as other powers iu substituting a steam for a sailing navy, then there might be good grounds for impeachment. But the fact was, that fur ten years the House had regarded this and similar expenditure as absolutely necessary for the security of the country, and not only that, but there had been constant cries for har bours of refuge and all sorts of demands on the part of Hon. Members. Now, however, when tho bill came to be paid, every one found fault with the expense.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the House whether they had not had value for their money? They had new and splendid works, which, being finished, would cease to be an item of expense; and he hoped the time would soon come when demands for them would cease on the part of the Government. He would for a moment call the attention of the House to the past and present con itgelaimte - r v s e , con dition of our stea m nav y. I n 1835 we had 23 small ss and e ls p r e ( m pe p l o e y d e employed packetsa4s,ls3 horsepower. or a dockyard 1 1841, when the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth came into power, we had 55 steamers of 9,503 horse power; and on the let of January, 1848, we had 134 steam-vessels, some as fine as any in the world, and of 35,565 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) That was a list which he was not ashamed to lay before the House, as a mode of accounting for increased expenditure. The lion. Member for Montrose had first taken the estimates for 1835, and compared them with those of the present year, complaining that an increase was proposed of 7,622,000/. He (Mr. Ward) had analysed them and had endeavoured to arrive at a distinct conclusion respecting them. The fret item he found had not existed in 1835, bat for the sake of the great commer cial interests of the country had been since adopted. Government had organized a complete system of packets, which were included in the Admiralty estimates, although properly the Admiralty had nothing to do with them, being simply administrators of the will of that House.— (Hear.) Tho vote for the contract packets was 611,6621., and the double line of packets to New York had caused an increase of 46,0001.; add to this 61,6981. paid to Queen's vessels employed as packets, and the packets from Holyhead to Dublin, which would soon commence running, and there would be a total of 773,000/. for the contract service. There were besides 181,0001. which, though charged to the navy, properly belonged to the army and ordnance. Then there was for troop ships, wages, &c., 25,5251., and 11,0001. for victualling the convict department, for which his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department was properly responsible.—(Hear, hear.) These, with one or two other items for provisions in other depart ments, would make a deduction of 1,057,000/. from the seven millions and a half. But, besides all that, there was the dead weight over which the Admiralty had no control, and which had been added to repeatedly at the suggestion of the House. They could not resist the appeals of old officers; but, when the sums were put down in the estimates, then fault was found with the Government. So it was, how ever, that with the help of the House the dead weight had amounted to 1,395,0721. Take this, and the vote for works, which ho contended should be looked upon as permanent investments, take off 100,000/. from the vote of the present year for repairs of dockyards, and the vote for permanent works 588,601/., and there would be at once a deduction of 3,041,0001. from the effective naval estimates of the year, leaving a total amount of effective naval expenditure of 4,685,6271., instead of 7,000,000/ — (Hear hear.) There had been in the establishment of the steam navy, much expense incurred in experiments. Mistakes had been committed, and knowledge had been bought by experience. The ntore enthusiasm in science, the more likelihood of making mistakes. It was impos sible to perfect any system without mistakes; and our system was rapidly approaching perfection. Under these circumstances he entreated the House to take a fairer view of the public expenditure, and to think that its increase was for the national benefit.—(hear, hear.) He entreated them to believe that there was something more rational in it than his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had represented; and that for all that had been spent the country had received valuable con sideration.—(Cheers.) Mr. OSMiItNE hoped that the House would not bo led away by the eloquent speech of his lion. Friend the Member for Sheffield to imagine that they were merely engaged in a debate on the naval estimates. The Hon. Member, in his able statement, had rather forestalled the labours of the Select Committee, for if Government was so satisfied with the present enormous expenditure, why refer the matter to a Select Committee at all ? H e was convinced that no other Minister would have conde scended to take such a course. The lion. Member had exulted in the number of our steamers and their great superiority, but he (Mr. Osborne) had been informed by men acquainted with the subject that our steam-vessels were exceedingly ill-constructed and not at all calculated for the purpose intended.—(Hear, hear.) But his object in rising was not to criticise the conduct of the Ad miTalty, but to review, as well as he was able, the whole system of government in this country.—(Laughter.) Ile objected to the course taken by the Government in re ferring the estimates to a Select Committee. He also objected to the increase of the income-tax, which, on its original imposition, was described by Mr. Tierney as a system of indiscriminate rapine.--(Hear.) But it was the common practice of the Whigs to rail at taxes when in opposition, and to double them when theS' got into power.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had made his first exposé of his financial policy in a clear and unsatisfactory speech. There was no mistake about it. But being very badly received, his Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had e.gorne down on the following Monday to make en apo ' He could not, notwithstanding the light Hon. Gentleman's eloquence, consent to send the estimates to a Select Committee. As to the fears of invasion on wh ich r t a h p e i y d y w e a r b e a t f i o n u g n . d d h The, E b a e r l l i e of f e d u t ile hat sm e t h r e o , s fears s e letter had alarmed several old ladies, and their alarm had been increased by seeing the private secretary of the Prime Minister gazetted to a lieutenancy in the Middle sex militia.—(A laugh.) He feared that the whole system of government at present carried on was cal culated unnaturally to increase the national expenditure. The system pursued by the Colonial-office perhaps more than any other required examination. The determination of the people was that there should be cheaper government. It was his opinion that the ex penditure of the country might be reduced at least 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. a year, without impairing the el efficiency of the public establishments. The appoint ment of the proposed Committee, however, was a mere shelving of the question. Ho entreated the Noble Lord to pause before he insisted on pressing his proposition of en increased income-tax. The country had reached the utmost limits of peace taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Let the Government take a lesson from what was passing around them. Let them take warning by what was taking place on the Continent—where the opposition to he popular feeling in the prevention of a dinner had involved the destruction of a dynasty. The best national defences were to be found in the hearts and affections of the middle class, the best mode of obtaining which was not the imposition of a war-tax in time of peace. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was not prepared to admit that there was any necessity for increasing the income.tax, though he considered that a well•regulated property tax was the fairest that could be imposed. It appeared to him an extraordinary course to appoint a Committee to examine into the expenditure of the country, and, pending the inquiry, to propose an increase to the bur. dens of the country, before it was known whether the maintenance of the public establishments rendered sueli increase necessary.—(Hear, hear.) . His opinion was, that a considerable reduction might be made in those establishments without injury to the public service. He concurred with the Honourable Member for Manchester that there was no necessity for keeping a British fleet in the Tagus. Then, with regard to the Kafir war, it was unreasonable to ask the House at once to vote upwards of 1,000,0001. upon the faith of statements only placed in the hands of Honourable Members that day, and which they had had no opportunity of examining. —(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But the expenditure under this head had been going on, it appeared, for two years. Why was not the subject brought under notice during the last session? By a strict exercise of economy in all the public departments, he had no doubt that the estimates might be reduced by three millions, and that there would be no necessity for increased taxation. —(bleer.) Our position with regard to France it ap peered was made a plea for increased expenditure. The true interest of this country was to maintain the best understanding with France. In this respect he believed the policy of the Noble Lord (Palmerston), in 1840 and 1841 had be , m, attended with unfortunate results—it had engendered distrust, and induced France to increase her military establishment, which increase was made the ground for adding to our own military expenditure. It was not only for the mutual interest of the two countries themselves, but of Europe and the world, that England and France should on good terms.—(Hear.) Had there been a good understanding between England and France at the time, it was his conviction that the absorp tion of Cracow by Austria would never have taken place. —(Hear, bear.) The occupation of Circassia by Russia, and the success of the designs of Russia against fork, y, might in the same way have bee* prevented. Though there was no danger of foreign invasion, there was in the discontent of the Irish people, a source of (huger whieh no increase in the estimates could obviate. Give Ire• land her own Parliament. and no foreign power ti,ould dare to put their foot in that country. At this moment the people of Ireland apprehended you (said the Hon. Member) more than they do the French. You have treated theta as enemies, and by your tyranny and bad government you have made them such. Let them look back to the history of the country—England had never been strong unless she had Ireland with her—and it was fear only, and not a sense of justice, that had in duced her to grant any concessions to that country. lle called upon Ministers to say how the poor of Ireland were to be supported during the ensuing spring. The poor-law would be wholly insufficient for the purpose. In many districts it would absorb the whole of the pro. perty. It was the duty of the Government to take measures for preserving the people of Ireland from star vation, and he called upon them to state what measure, if any, they were prepared to propose for that purpose. The lion. Member concluded by declaring that his best assistance should be given to any effort to reduce the expenditure of the country. Lord J. RUSSELL could scarcely understand the purpose of the Hon. G entleman who advocated this motion.—The lion. Member for Montrose thought it a matter of reproach against the Government that they had not, some time ago, appointed a Committee to ex amine into the expenditure of the country. The Hon. Member for Middlesex, on the other hand, thought it a matter of reproach that it should be appointed now, holding it to be an abdication of the functions of the Government. Then, again, the Hon. Member for Limerick had told them that be was prepared to resist any increase of taxation, but called on Government, at the same time, to propose some large grant of money for the purpose of relieving Irish destitution, leaving Ministers to get out of the difficulty as they might. lie was at a loss, therefore, to understand the purpose of the pre sent discussion. Great fault had been found in the course of these debates with the speech with which he had introduced the budget, but it was curious enough that not one of the propositions he had then laid down had been controverted. He had said it was the interest of this country to keep on good terms with France. No one had controverted that proposition, or had disputed that it was to our interest to remain at peace. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex, who had not disputed his figures, hail found fault that ho had stated them with sang froid. lie (Lord J. Russell) was not aware that he had done so. He had stated the figures, and the lion. Member had not denied their accuracy ; but he com plained that he had not made his statement with that amount of passion and enthusiasm which, in the Hon. Member's opinion, should have accompanied it. The Hon. Member wished to know for what purpose the increase in the estimates was made, The Hon. Gentle man should remember that there were many persons in this country who were of a different opinion from himself, and who complained that our establishments had not been sufficiently increased ; that our navy was at too low a scale ; that our army was insufficient to meet any sudden contingencies that might occur ; that the ordnance was not euai ciently cared for, and that altogether our establish ments were not in that state of efficiency in which they ought to be. To meet this charge, he had thought it pro per to show what had been done, and what expendi ture had actually been incurred, to make those esta blishments effective, and to show, also, that it was not necessary to increase them beyond what ho had stated. The Hon. Member for Middlesex, it would seem, was himself one of those who was not long since of opinion that our national defences wire iusufficient, for before ' Christmas he placed a notice on the paper, of a motion to call the attendee of the House to the state of those defences—(Cheers and laughter).—showing that, in his view, some addition was required.—(" No," from Mr. Osborne.) Perhaps the Hon. Member merely intended to make a speech, to prove that enough had been done ; but, if so, the notion was rather an extraordinary one. —(Hear, }lean) And he (Lord .John Russell) had been told that many of the Honourable Gentleman's consti tuents took alarm at that notice, and wrote to him remonstrating against what they thought his project of increasing the armament of the country. — (Mr. Osborne, " No.") The Honourable Member had, however, it appeared, concealed his real purpose till now, and it was found that he had no such intention as that attributed to him.—(" Hear," and a laugh.) lie (Lord John Russell) must say, however, that the ambiguity of the Hon. Member's motion was to some extent the cause of his considering it necessary to ex plain to the House the means of defence we had, es coin pared with those of that country with whom some per sons here, and others abroad, had, without meaning any offence, thought it possible that a war might ensue. The Hon. Member for Middlesex thought Government pro posed to del ega t e to a C omm i ttee t h at respons ibili ty which properly rested with the Ministry as to the num ber of men to be voted for the army and navy. In that respect the Hon. Gentleman was mistaken. He believed this Committee, like those which had been appointed from time to time, and formerly were appointed about every ten years to go through the details of expenditure, would be attended with useful results as satisfying the country that that expenditure was actually and properly incurred, and in other respects as eliciting suggestions for future economy. But, as regarded the number of men proposed for the great establishments—the army and navy—the Gouernment was responsible, and he trusted to be able to defend the votes for the army and ordnance as effectually as his Hon. Friend ' the Secretary for the Admiralty had defended that for the navy.---(Hear, hear.) At all events, he should not fear to encounter the discussion upsn those votes, or to stand by them. The Honourable Member for Limerick had, however, referred to another and a different sub ject. In asking the House to deal with the condition of the people of Ireland, the Honourable Member had re ceived in a very ill spirit that which was, perhaps, the greatest effort ever made by any country on behalf of a part, of its population.—(Bear, hear.) That effort was not the doing of the Government—it was not the bene volence or philanthropy of Government—but it was the act of Parliament, and the House of Commons espe cially, who, in the most generous manner, voted the money necessary for averting the consequences of that famine with which Ireland was afflicted, which money was spent in what seemed, at the time, to be the most economical and effectual manner, in giving food directly in redoes to three millions of people.—(Hear, hear.) And yet the Honourable Member talked of the demo ralising effect of giving this relief to people who might else have starved, and for which he believed the people of Ireland themselves were grateful.—(Hear, hear.) But while this was doing, while England and Scotland were thus coming to the relief of their brethren in Ireland, what was the conduct of the lion. Gentleman ? —(Hear, hear.) What was he doing but endeavouring to disseminate distrust and disaffection , amongst his fellow-countrymen ?—(Lo u d cheers.) The Hon. Mem ber had asked whether Parliament would interfere to prevent the evils of famine during the spring, alleging that she poor-law was wholly insufficient, and that it would be inoperative. He (Lord J. Russell) could not agree that a rate of 3 5., 4 5., or even s s. in the pound iaew was had reading n been en that every day where an fairly extract r ought to deter the proprietors of property in Ireland from supporting destitution when necessary. But h e was from an t l a wr Irish hhlt paper ty a e of an examin a ti on t h at too k place in a court of justice, in which a man was charged w i th stealing a sheep from a farm er , w h o i t appeare d was o as r iptspai applied. himself receiving out• door relief, though possessed of twenty sheep; three or four cows, and a good store of barley in his haggard, while the accused, who lived in the same parish, had been refused relief, though he and his family were reduced to such a state of starvation that they were discovered eating the stolen sheep in its raw state. lie said while such a state of things existed—while persons who were in comparatively good circumstances were receiving that relief which ought to be given to the destitute, and those who had the means of contributing to the rate re fused to do so, it was most unjust to call upon the people of Middlesex or Berks,who had paid their rates and who provided for their own poor, to pay an fulditiona , l , tax for the relief of Irish destitution.—(Bear, hear.) The tax for that purpose must be enforced from the Irish pro• prietors themselves, and to that tax Ireland must look • for the support of its destitute poor.—(Cheers.) It was only in very exceptionable cases—where the property of the country did not afford the means for the relief of Os: destitute—that public or private charity could be called upon to supply its place.—(Hear, hear.) And let him say one thing more. Her Majesty was some time ago advised by a person whose memory he should long regard with reverence, the late Archbishop of Canterbury, as it was expected that much distress would occur in Ireland this year, to issue a Queen's letter for a collection in the several churches in this country. That collection it was well known, had not been so successful as the collec tion of last year, or anything like it. Some 26,000/. had been collected, which was now being divided in various unions in Ireland for the relief of children, for schools, cud other relief purposes. But why was nut the amount collected greater? Because these who bad last year contributed to the extent of 300,0001. or 400,0001. had met with nothing but invective and insult in return, and they were disgusted and disheartened at being held out to the world as hard hearted and as enemies to the Irish people.—(Elear, hear.) He begged the Hon. Gentleman, and others who had taken the same course, to take some warning—to learn a lesson from these two facts.—(Hear, hear.) From the first, that there was no indisposition on the part of the English people to relieve their Irish fellow-subjects when in distress; and from the second example let him learn that violent invective and passionate harangues, and libels upon the English people, was not the way to improve the relations between the two countries.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman having raised this question, he (Lord J. Russell) had thought it necessary to say thus much. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman, however, that Government was not unmindful of Ireland —they looked day by day to the condition of that country—there was not a single day in which the reports from Ireland did not attract his attention and that of his colleagues, and they had shown their readiness to incur some obloquy, by not proposing a tax fur Ireland which they thought she was not in a condition to bear. at the same time that she was paying a tax to the ex tent of two millions a year to relieve her poor. But Go vernment did consider that by obliging Ireland, from her property, to support her destitution, by encouraging the people to exert themselves, and the men of property to draw from the soil that increase of produce which might be drawn from it almost without limit—they were doing that which was far better than repeating every year (which was not a year of signed calamity) the large and liberal contribution which they thought had been rightly given last year, though, perhaps, it had nut been so well administered as it might have been; awl it no similar grant was proposed this year. it was not from indiffer ence to the wants of the people of Ireland, but froM a confidence that the course e hitch we were pursuing was that which would tend most to the permanent happiness and welfare of that country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR condemned the estimates gene rally as excessive. The increased income tax would be the means of uniting, for the first time for many years, the middle end the lower classes against the Govern ment. He objected to the manner in which Ireland was made use of by Irish Members in that House. Telling the Government, as the Hon. Member for Lincoln told them, that if they did justice to Ireland they had only to whistle in order to have 200,000 men in defence of this country, was only part of the system which had debased and destroyed the Irish mini. —(Hear, hear.) He contended that Ireland would not be in the condition she now was, of 'depending upon the begeine letter of the Archbishop, if past Governesents of England had dune their duty towards her. Mr. WAKLEY conceived that the motion of the lion. Member for Montrose, to which he begged to recut the attention of the House, was the most rational and con sistent motion that could he made under existing circumstances ; for if the House were to go on voting money as they had hitherto done, putting no cheek upon expenditure, this country would ve soon be involved in a state of universal ruin. He keenly felt the force of the lecture of the Hon. Secretary of the Admiralty. Upon him (Mr. Wakley) at least that lecture should nut be lost. The Honourable Gentleman had told them that in crease after increase had taken place a ithout any re sistance on the part of the House, and without a single division. But henceforth he (Mr. Wakley) would adopt a course of conduct that would not subject him to such a taunt as that. He was sure that Ministers declined to profit by the generosity of the House, and that the time hid arrived when resistance must be offered to a pro fligate and extravagant expenditure of the public money. He considered that, in the present instance, the Govern ment were much to blame for not having examined more closely into the finances of the country, and proposed those reductions which the circumstances of the people so much required. The Secretary of the Admiralty would not deny that it, was proposed to fix the army, navy, arid ordnance estimates at between 17,000,0001. and 18,000,0001. ; but that was an expenditure which was riot shown to be warranted by any circumstance now existing. The motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose was, therefore, called for by the facts of the case. Insinu ations were often thrown out against the Radical party in that House. But he asked whether the leader of that party (Mr. Hume) had not done more for the people than the whole aristocracy of the country?—(Hear, hear.) The aristocracy were extremely active when dealing with the national funds, but had never yet shown a disposition to economise them. A Noble Lord had been appointed Secretary to the Poor-law Commission, but as long as such appointments were made so long must the people be content with extravagant expenditure. He felt great gratitude to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment for his Jewish Disabilities Bill, and other inea sures; but when he saw his Government proposing such extravagant expenditure he could no;longer offer him his support. In fact, he thought that the Radical party in that House ought to establish themselves as a party, and that the lion. Member for Montrose ought that very night to. be installed as leader of it. If a Noble Lord had exhibited the amount of ability and knowledge displayed by his Hon. Friend he would be idolised by his party ; ho therefore trusted that all those who called themselves Radicals would combine and give to his Hon. Friend that support which his new situation would entitle him to, and to whom it could not but be gratifying to know that his labours were fully appreciated, not only in that House, but by the milieus out of it.—(liear, hear.) He trusted his Hon. Friend would persist in the motion he had made that evening, and induce the Ministry to come forward:with a remodelled budget. Ho should like to know what would have been the proposal of the Noble Lord if the country was in a prosperous state, seeing that be had no better than a war expenditure to propose in its present depressed state. But he must say, in justice to the Government, that Hon. Members in that House were infinitely much more to blame for the reckless manner in which they had hitherto voted away the public money. For his part, he would sit there, and oppose vote after vote upon the principles of economy, retrench ment, and peace. Mr. ROBINSON said, it was an absolute delusion to vote for this motion until the means of making good the deficiency in the revenue were pointed out, and he cer tainly would be no party to it.—[While the Hon. Mem ber was speaking, Lord Ebrington handed an evening paper to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, containing intelligence which rapidly spread through the House, and created evident excitement for several minutes.] Mr. FAGAN (Cork) would vote for the motion of the Honourable Member for Montrose, believing. that if the public expenditure were not now reduced, Ireland would soon be subjected to the income-tax. Mr. S. CRAWFORD also declared his intention to support the motion, conceiving that they ought not to vote away the public money until the grounds upon which they were called upon to do so were fully under stood. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, while he concurred in the panegyric bestowed upon the Hon. Member for Montrose, could not agree in the reasons adduced for supporting his motion. It was argued that the estimates about to be submitted entailed great future expenditure, but if the House would consent to go into Committee he should, , ,be able to show that thoy were es timates of money actually spent. He was as anxious as any one in that House to reduce the public expenditure, and he would not submit those estimates to the House if he did not bi-lieve them to be necessary for the public service. They had agreed to refer the whole question of expenditure to two Committees, to see whether any reduction could be made; the Hon. Member for Mon. trose was a member of one of those Committees, and he therefore thought it rather extraordinary that he should prejudge the. decision of that Committee by his present motion. The House divided— For going into Committee Against the Committee 59 Majority —9B On our admission into the gallery we found the House resolved into a Committee of SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ro-e to move a vote of 1,100,0001. to defray the expenses of the Kafir war. The Right lion. Gentleman (as far as he could be heard) took a review of the grounds upon which the hostilities with the Kafir tribes arose in the year 1836, and which were continued until the year 1846. The intelligence which reached the Govern ment did not arrive until the summer of that year, and it was soon after the accession of the present Govern ment into office that the state of aff a i rs a t t h e C ape demanded their immediate attention. The intelligence received was that the Burgher Guard had been dismissed to their own homes. The country was in a state of diffi culty and revolt when Sir 11. Pottiuger arrived, who, as Governor-General, adopted measures which were essen. tial for the peace of the colony, and which were, at the same time, not the mere results of caprice. He (the Chancellor of the Excleenuer) would not on this occasion go into details, but he would observe that he believed that by the proceedings taken, the Chinese coars had been reduced, while those of England had been augmented. On the acquisition of office by the present Government they had telt that the expenses of this war ought to be defrayed out of the colonial treasury. This expectation had unhappily not been realised, though ho believed the first efforts of the new Governor, Sir Henry Pottinger, had been directed to that object. The pre sent vote was asked in order to carry out preceding engagements, and the vote was justified by the docu ments now on the table of the House.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME contended that the House °Light to have had in its possession the entire accounts upon which the vote proposed was founded, and he maintained that the House ought to pause before it acquiesced in the state ments which had been mail° in support of the m o ti on. Whatever might be the tenor of the dispatches of Sir Peregrine Maitland, or any other governor, still ho con tended that the British Legislature had not mere l y t h e right, but the duty, to inquire lute the Oilers o f th e colony by whomsoever those affairs might be adminis tered. Inquiry was necessary in order to . get rid of the imputations which had been cast out. At tl.ll eVeLtS, the House was not supplied with the inf orim ition upon j which the vote could be u6tified ; and he therefore limear •••• should move that the Chairman report progress a l . id ass leave to sit again.—(Hear.) After a few words of explanation between the ( .18a-X• CELLOR of the EXCHERIIER and Mr. HIIXE, Mr. V. SMITH supported the amendment pre caned. on the ground that sufficient information as eo the 'origin of the Kafir vvarlhad not been known to the Legii datuty He highly approved of Earl Grey's instruct'olio to ;Si r H. Pottiuger; they were very valuable for the future, t o which we must now look. Unless the House- -were p re' pared to vote a much larger income-tax than had hi .en propesed, they must take into consideration the .•eductj on of our colonial expenditure.—(Hear.) Mr. BANKES was decidedly of opinion that ti ao vo ought not to be granted at the present moment. . & car teittee was to be nominated before the rising of the [louse to inquire into the navy, army, and O rdrosnee expenditure; and this item might form a very ieroPer subject f,r the inquiries of that Committee. Hew ale, therefore, support the motion of the Honourable J feln" ber for Mont, ose. If the matter did not come et itli in the consideration of the Committee alluded to he hit lase e would move a special Committee for the pur Qo The colony of the Cape of Good Hope was a sour ° enortnousexpense in everydepartment, and brouf;ht et. no return. It might be a question wh u ete was worth retaining it at all, but certainly not ss.U. 50 ° an expense as this.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Bailkee) was nominated on the Committee proposed by tl to WO Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on thee awl' navy, and ordnance estimates; and he would not iiwatt ige the example of the llon.Member for Montrose b, re_plor ing himself beforehand to a certain view, but woe ad- enter the Committee unbiassed, with a desire to effect .redno" ;ion wherever it was practicable.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. W. MILES said ho had understood ft !om th e Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the public service required-this vote to be imr adopted. The country certainly ought to pay its debts. and then let a Committee of Inquiry investag ate th e A matter afterwards, it that were thought desiratelt . lb w the Governor not done all in his power to pm ant the plunder and bloodshed which had been inflicter I on the colonists, he would have been unworthy of the ssituatio rt he held.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced in the opportunity of bearing testimony to the character of the Governor. Never had either a more gallant soldier or is Wore, humane and conscientious man been placed in charge any colony.—(Bear, hear.) The charges -a; ;ainst Sir P. Maitland had arisen nut from his rushing pre rctpitately into the war, but from his unwillingness to in eolve the country in such a contest.—(Hear, hear.) Ur iderstand ing that the public convenience required this ,vote to b ° , granted, he should support it; but its adopwows not preclude further inquiry. We might we 11 begin to reflect how large a portion of the world's act face we had new rendered ourselves responsible-for; we :were keenly reminded of it by the vote now proposed, at to 1,100,000/.; and this sum would probably be followed by others in succeeding years. Looking to the futures he flutel, unless some great change of system could he oeviecd, that we might expect the recurrence .of wars in that remote colony. Sir Y. Maitland had expressed similar belief in one of his dispatches. He feared the change adopted twelve or fourteen years ago had in' creased the cost of the colony to this country; but that change had been adopted from the most philanthroP i° motives. The payment of this money would not be vain it it led the Houee to reflect well on the policy of extending our colonial empire.—(Hear.) ' Mr. E. ELLICE said he would not ()eject to the Ynte , . but would impress on the House the importance of no longer treating these colonial matters lightly.—(Hear) Ile differed with the Hon. Member for Northampto°,. (Mr. V. Smith) as to th e p o ssibility of t em p or i s i n g wit', the natives; it was essential that wherever we plante d our industry we should protect it, and do it in a manne r worthy the dignity of a great nation. There was anc r ther suggestion he wished to offer. Why had not the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mitten b e knew of this war proceeding, come down to the Jaco b : at an earlier period and asked for a vote? H e oug ilt have made the best estimate he could, and then the coin' plaint would net have arisen that the House was uses pectcdly called on to vote a large sum, of the expey diture of which they had never before heard.—(heart hear.) With regard to the vote before the House., be would not oppose it, because the Government .we ts not accountable for the war, and because the pubw service would suffer if funds were not provided. Mr. G. THOMPSON did not think that they ought to be called on to vote 1,100,0001. without knowiOS anything respecting the origin, progress, policy, or eh*: meter of this war. The House ought to be allows" time to reed the papers that would be put into the hands of Members to-morrow. _ _ Mr. AG LIONBY saw no reason for post?oning the vote. It was the duty of the Government to protect the settlers from the savages and murderers in their colonies. The whole of this war had arisen because the late Government, yielding to a vicious influence in the Colonial-office, had set aside the recommendation . of Sir B. D'Urly.in. In the dispatch which Sir H. Pot' linger sent home ho declared. in answer to the petition of the settlers, that they were blameless in what had occurred. _ Lord DUNCAN thought they should be allowed time to read the papers bt•fore they were called on to vote l 0 large a :um or money. Alderman SIDNEY thought the motion of the BOO' Me tuber for Montrose rational and consistent. Thel should not be called upon to vote money in a matter ei which they knew nothing. Mr. HINDLEY said that he bad been informed its last September, by a gentleman who had come from the Cape, that the war was an excellent thing for the Cape. because it caused the expenditure of a large sum 0 p money. That House ought to have some control over the expenditure of mosey. It was not right to spend money without the sanction of the House, and then come to it and say the money has been expended. and you have nothing to do but to pay. Atter a law words from Mr. HUME, The Committee then divided, when there appeared- - • For the motion Against it Majority for the motion NAVY SUPPLIES. Mr. WARD then moved a vote of 245,410/. 19s. 7c l ; for the navy excess in 1846. The Hon. Gentleman eS i " he had already explained the importance of this TOW' lie said that the Admiralty had made complete sr' rrigetnents whereby no sum would be expended in future that did not come within the estimates for the cuirt•nt year, nor would any works be entered upon le any dockyard without the previous cognizance of th e House. The lion. Gentleman was proceedi ng witk blo details in an inaudible tone, when Mr. ELLIOT rose, and called the Hon. Member for Sunderland to order, as his voice drowned that of the Hon. Secretary f o r the Admiralty. After some further conversation, Mr. HUDSON rose, and repudiated the idea that be had interrupted the lion. Member in his statement. Ile had been most uncourteously interrupted by the Eton. Member, whose name he did not know, and whom be never wished to know. Mr. ELLIOT disclaimed any intention of behaving uncourteously to the Hon. Member, but his voice had, certainly prevented him from h ear i ng t h e statemen t 0' the Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty. Mr. T. F. BARING} said that the vote was a very itn' portant one, and he could not let it pass without solDe observation. Last year there was a naval excess of 165,0001. on a form vote. lie had made some obser vations at the time, but, as all economical observations were in the last House of Commons, it was' , pooh pooh'd."—(A laugh.) This year there was a further excess of 240,000/.; and he thought it a course that should be arrested. He confessed he was rather struck ith the loose mode of transacting business which seemed to prevail in the Admiralty with respect to arrears.—(llenr, hear.) However, after the candid con fession of his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Ado3i° ratty, and his promise that such things should not occur agnin, he did not feel it incumbent on him to make of further observation. The vote was then agreed to, the Chairman reported progress, and the House resumed. LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved the second reading of the Landed Property (Ireland) Bill. The o bj ec t o f th e Dill was to enable landed proprietors in Ireland to borrow money for the improvement of their land from indici du.lls, cn the same terms as the Act of last year a uthor rise(' them to bor.'', it from the public. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not oppose the present stage of the Bill, but reserved hi 6 opinion as to the future stages, until he had received s communication from the Board of Works in Ireland. The Bill was then read a second time. TREATY OF ADRIANOPLE, Sec.—ADJOURNED DE BATE. Mr. ANSTEY said he had received a communication from the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs/ to the effect that he would not be able to fix an ea rlier day for the adjourned debate on his (Mr. .Anstey's) motion than Wednesday next; aLd, although he feared there would be little chance of its conclusion, he woulqo in compliance with the Noble Lord's wish, postpone 1 to that date. The order was then postponed. ELECTION PETITIONS. The SPEAKER informed the House that he had re ceiv.d letters from the agents to the petitions a gainst the returns for Colchester and North Stafford, statioi that it was not their intention to proceed with the ssi petitions. SELECT COMMITTEES ON THE ESTIMATES. The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, post' poned until Tuesday next the nomination of th e cow mittecs on the navy and miscellaneous estimates. LAND-TAX. Mr. WAKLEY moved that the petition of G. L' Hutchinson, relative to the land-tax, be printed with the votes. Messrs. TIIORNELY and BROVIERTON severally Or p ,, sed the printing of the petition, on the ground that the petitioner merely sought to print his views on the land" tax at the expense of the public. Mr. W AKLEY persisted in his motion, and the Hous e divided, when forty Members not being present, th e House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. BIRTHS. On the 24th inst., at Great Ilford, Essex, the wife of B• 11. George, Esq., of a son. O❑ the 24th inst., Mrs. Alexander Chirol, of a son. Oa the 24th inst., at Portland• place, Clapton, Mrs. Lo ci " Worms, of a daughter. DI ED. On the 2d inst., at Palermo, W. A. Home, youngest son of the late Sir E. Home, Bart. On the 15th inst., at Harby l Rectory, Leicestershire, Eliza Georgian 2, the of the Rev. W. E. Hartopp. On the 16th inst., in her 90th year, Mrs. R. 1Vol" , of Hackney•road. London Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, ab •Nu. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 1 12 , Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the costal o f DlidJle.iox, Saturday, February 26, 1848. ATTORNEYS' CERTIFICATE DUTY. Mr. COCKBURN presented petitions from New port and Ityde, praying for a reduction of the annual duty on attorneys' certificates. CATHOLIC CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. Sir W. MOLESWORTII presented a petition from the Catholics of Southwark against the Chari table Trusts Bill. BOLTON ELECTION COMMITTEE. The members of this Committee were called to the table and sworn. INCREASE OF THE INCOME-TAX. Mr. CARDWELL presented a petition from Liverpool, which was agreed to at a public meeting, numerously attended, presided over by the Mayor. The petitioners stated that they viewed with alarm and indignation the proposal of her Majesty's Govern ment to make any addition to the income-tax ; they con sidered that the present revenue was sufficient to an swer all necessary purposes if proper economy were used—(Hear)—and they prayed that if any deficiencey existed, that it might be made up by a tax upon legacies and probates to the succession of real and personal property—(Hear, hear)—and that no addi tion whatever might be made to the existing burdens on the people imposed by the income-tax.—(Hear.) Lord DUNCAN presented a petition, agreed to at a public meeting held in Bath, against the proposed increase of the income-tax. Captain BERKELEY presented a petition from the city of Gloucester to the same effect. INCOME-TAX RETURNS. Lord D. STUART gave notice of his intention to move, upon an early day, for a number of returns showing the number of persons paying, and the amount paid by them, as income-tax. Sir WILLIAM. CLAY present©d a petition against the income-tax. Mr . NEWDEGATE presented a petition against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Sir R. H. INGLIS presented several petitions to the same effect. MURDER OF ENGLISHMEN NEAR CANTON. Dr. BOWRING, seeing the Noble Lord the Se cretary- for Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to ask him whether he had received any official informs• tion of certain outrages, ending in murder, which had been committed on several Englishmen in the neigh bourhood of Canton ? Lord PALMERSTON replied that he had re ceived an official account of the unfortunate occur rence, and a steam-vessel had been sent up to the place where it happened, whose commander had instructions t o see t h at t h e perpetrators of the crime were brought to justice. Measures had also been taken for securing protection to the property and lives of her Majesty's British subjects residing in the neighbourhood of Canton. THE RATE PAYING CLAUSES. In answer to a question from an Hon. Member, Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that it was not the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill this session to repeal the rate-paying clauses of the Reform Act. INCOME-TAX. Mr. Sheriff HILL appeared at the House, le bar o f th e and presented am petition from the Lord Mayor Aldermen, and Common Council against the Go vernment proposal for increasing the income-tax. THE EIGHT MILLIONS LOAN. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the loan of eight mil lions of stock having produced in 1847 the sum of 7,963,5741, whether any and what portion of such money was in the Exchequer, or was in the Ex chequer on the Ist day of January, 1848 ; and whether there was any objection to place on ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the House at its rising was ordered to adjourn till Monday next. INSURRECTION - IN PARIS. Mr. HINDLEY wished to know if the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would have any objection to state to the House the nature of the latest information which he had received respecting the political state of Paris. Lord PALMERSTON said, amid profound silence, the latest intelligence which I hare received from Paris is dated half-past 6 o'clock on the evening be- fore last—(Laugl.ter.) These dispatches inform me of the retirement of M. Guizot, and that M.Mole had been appointed to form a new Government; later than that I have no ()Tidal information.— (Laughter.) COMMITTEE OF UI)?LY: On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER for the House going into Committee of Supply for the purpose of taking a vote of 1,100,0001. fur the Kafir war, and 245,410/. 19s. 7d. for the iavy excess, Mr. HUME said he was sorry that an imperative sense of duty called on him to offer an interference with the service of Government, but he would_appeal to the House, whether, when it was agreed to advance 3,700,000/.. on account of the army and navy, it was no , distinctly understood that they were not to be called on to vote any further sum until the Select Committee hai been enabled to meet, end to examine and report upon the expenditure. It was proposed on that occasion to take a vote on a distinct estimate for the excess in the navy expenditure of last year, which was pronounced to be one of the most objectionable votes that could hay,' been proposed, and when that estimate was withdrawn, the vote on. account was granted under the arrangement to which he had referred. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to state to the Hon. Member that he had, on being toll that the vote granted last Monday was only on account distinctly said that on that understanding he should bring forward the two votes for the navy excess and the Kafir war on the next supply night. Mr. FIUME had no doubt whatever, since the Right lion. Gentlemen had asserted it, that the fact was so. But he objected to any estimates being brought forward until the House saw how the matter stood with respect to the expenditure—how far it was necessary to impose new taxes for the purpose of increasing the establish ments of the country. His object, therefore, was to pledge the House to grant no additional tax until the Committee had reported on the expenditure—(Hear, hear.) In ,the year 1835 ho had protested against the additional expenditure which was incurred then. lie said on that occasion, the time w _mid come when they would all be brought up, to nee a common expression, and the time had now arrived. In the present state of commercial and manufacturing depression how could the Noble Lord attempt to impose new taxes ? And yet he spoke of the matter as if he was performing some most creditable task, and that the people bad only to listen to him to yield, and to pay any tax he pleased to propose. The Noble Lord stated with great sangfroid, that in the year 1835 the army numbered 130,000 men, and that in 1847 the numbers had increased to 138,000, without telling them why this increase had been made, or offering any reason for its continuance. The Noble Lord also stated that the ordnance had been raised from 8,420 men in 1835 to 14,000 men in 1847. He was not surprised at petitions such as had been read in the House being pre sented against tho income-tax from Liverpool and London, or that the people should endeavour to arrest the Government in their intentions, and stop their ca reer of extravagance. It would be a charity to stop the Ministry in their downward course.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord ought to hare furnished the details of the dockyard battalions, the pensioners, and the police force, all of whom were armed, amounting to a fierce of 250,000 men, and actually showing that the Govern ment had converted a peaceful commercial community into a warlike, threatening nation.—(Hear, hear.) He had hoped to have heard from the Chancellor at the beginning of the session that he was prepared to remove taxes and not to impose new ones. The Government had been asleep—it was time to awaken then. It had been asserted that the revenue had decreased, and that there must be more taxes imposed to support public credit. How fallacious that statement was he would presently show. He had always been a strenuous ad vocate for maintaining the public credit, by keeping faith with the creditor, and though he had aeon a proposition published with the signature of one of her Majesty's Privy Councillors attached to it for wiping off 25 per cent. of the National Debt, he never was for sanctioning such a scheme, and he protested against it at the time. But the way to maintain public credit was by reducing the expenditure within the income. And as the Government was responsible for the imposition of the taxes, so they ought to be made responsible for their expenditure. From the returns of the income and expenditure between the years 1822 and 1845, it would seem that the latter was exactly the same in both years. It certainly did seem extraordinary that, after so many years of peace, the same amount of expenditure should be required that was called for during the war. When, from year to year, the question was put, why is this enor mous expenditure still kept up, the answer always given, from 1822-25 to 1826 was, that the state of the continent was still unsettled, and that France had not settled down under her monarchy. He had always been opposed tt, intermeddling in the affairs of foreign nations, for such interference had always produced ranco ur at;tl —(Hear, hear.) And was it now that, after the downfal of a dynasty of seventeen years' standing, England was to be so foolish as to suppose that her army had ever tended to settle the differences which existed amoegst the French people ?—(Hear, hear.) So far from this, he thought the very contrary effect was produced; and, if all the accounts ho had heard were correct, it was probable that Louis Philippe would soon make his appearance in England. He would toll the Government that it was not in the power of any army to support a monarch on his throne against the wish of his people; and Louis Philippe now found that, after ex pending 60,000,0001. or 70,000,0001. on his forts round Paris, ho was not a bit the nearer securing the perma nence of his dynasty.— (Hear. hear.) What a lesson did not the recent events in Paris offer to Governments? Who were the authors of what had occurred there ? The middle classes—the same classes on whose behalf he now appealed in that House against the impositions endured by them. Why was it, let him ask, that there were between 30,000 and 40,000 more men in the army now than there were in 1833 ? In the year 1822 he wasted six weeks in trying to reduce the navy and military estimates, and ho took no less than from seventy to eighty divisions on them. He then moved an address to the Crown, praying that the establish ment of the country should be reduced to the standard of 1792. Mr. Bankes moved an amendment on his motion, making a very trifling alteration in the words, and that was.carried. The result was, that the estimates next year were reduced by 3,000,000/, and the number of men in the army was lessened by 10,000. He said now what ho then stated, that it was the duty of the House to compel Ministers to retrace their steps, and to reduce the army and navy establishments. But the House and the country had been told, as an excuse, that the successive additions to the army and navy had been sanctioned year after year by the House of Commons. That the fact was so he admitted ; but be attributed it to the corresponding fact that the country had not been represented in the House of Commons. It had likewise been universally asserted that the revenue had de creased. That was not true. During the years 1833, 1934, and 1835, the revenue had always exceeded the expendi ture, and the reason was that the finances were never better managed than during those years. The amount of the revenue, after deducting drawbacks and expenses of collection was during those three . years on an average 50,524,5451. In the year 1846 what was the net amount of the revenue ? Not less than 57,589,0001., showing an excess of taxation; during the latter period over 1833 of 7,064,0001. He, therefore, protested against any Minister asserting that the revenue had decreased. Revenue had not failed, but every increase of receipt had been met by increase of expenditure. The increase had been mainly in the navy, and he should be able to show that in that department one half the present ex penditure and one-half the number of ships would be amply sufficient for all useful purposes. It was on these, grounds that he had brought forward the present m(t; tion—a motion which pledged the House not only against increased expenditure, but also to an immediate and active course of retrenchment. There were many points in which a Committee might find room for retrenchment. There were, for instance, the enormous brevets, of fate so frequent.—(llear, hear.) But the items were numerous, end, if properly curtailed, the ne cessity for an increased income-tax might be altogether avoided. By a cheaper mode of collecting the Customs, by a better management of the funded and unfunded debt, by a curtailment of sinecure incomes, ho would make the estimate of 1846 amply sufficient for all pur poses. Among other things the Irish estimates required revision. In a few years they had increased to the amount of 180/. per cent., and were principally items with which the consolidated fund had, properly speak- I 1 I