The Sun. — London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

TILE SUN, s....._______ ......m......... ar0n0.......... h ate brought the measure forth so early seeing that the was quite justified in introducing the former kind point tl i P s „ rt had only been livered that day. , . He thought council into his constitution. There was another pout no t question requiren so much consideration that it Was upon which he couli not gather what was the phasic() a " Possible to pass it in the present session of Perna- intention of the Wght lion. Gentleman. The question ti ent `, The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) be in this colony been used to was not the mere giving of d a eonstitutiou e ut t tit had gone rather too far when - he said thfs to a number of British subjects who had . . _ . meta wades- be a boon to the colony, lie (Mr. the working of the representative machinery in thus e a :ts) did not think that was all they had to consider. country; but there were 100,000 or more of the native en...`! regard to the land sales they must consider . population; some of - whom were undoubtedly makings e'!,! t her the course proposed would not g ive great dissa- great advances in civilization, but - others of whom ehaetion Il e s, n Australia. lle hoped the Right Hon. Gen- were not teuoh advanced om thc state Gentleman which they t a hso would understand that if they allowed him to orientating were. Now the Right Hon. G native pro-- held. the quelification to lie in the Bill it was for the purpose of their exam- pard d t , li t a t t he wh ß e r r it e is a h settlers; he - should - have the same lie a t _r Papersandhhe Bill; and that ample time would gn t t, :e t, ! .. consider it. . _ right re to vote, and the same franchise, as a British Nt h tete ME was not satisfied with the statement of the settler. That would be a convenient arrangement in a in ' lion; Gentleman. He had expected Government restricted settlement , . but where they had a settlement Boy i ld have stated what their policy would be with re- of considerable limits they would give the franchise .to ts q a t ?, o 4ll- hur colonial establise - cs t ots Whatever they a considerable number , of the native population, who Wi t h fl ;', with regard to Crown lend!, "the ought to deal would be ignorant as to. the mode of carrying - on. an Cott all Colonies on the same principle.. .And it they election; or selecting proper representatives. On the Ul m ," 0 to have nominees in 'the Legislative Conned, other hand, it would be felt a great grievance if any en' would never give satisfaction to the colonists. An. differsnco was placed between fhern and the settlers,' and ao s o r , thing he had expected to have heard semehhing chile' was the great difficulty of 'Sir G. Grey. .Sir. G. !heat was with regard to the expense of the colonies to Grey ,7a, a very OA' mate but he knew that with t h mother country. They had not heard a word about thew 100,000 . natives it ' would have been very d.ffiehilt as The In a s Y were told by Lerd Grey, two b or three to prevent ialprope4 Acts from passing ; mad yet to which the have deprived them of the franchise would have been a t a he To, that measures were in progress by tt ae l_ re vrere to bear their own expense, and be was, very considerable grievance. How the Right Hon. Gen- It st s t o s e much disappointed at not hearing anything on tleman proposed to deal with this matter he did not at Whild eject. The Right lion. Gentleman . had said he present entirely understand. The • pint was, what li e reserve something for the civil list. He (Mr. would u be the limit ofehe General Assembly's jurisdic- T h r ee) did not think he ought to reserve anything. tio ? e cole s e With respect to the measure itself, he should be itd a sts ought to have the ge . neral ma . uheement, happy to afford it every facility in his power. t o ,‘ was child's play to keep them in the leadin;strings . Mr. AGLIONBY was strongly opposed to the 4 • 4l l :n a lch they were now - kept. He thought this was not placing of the lands in the bands of the colonists until ta t e'nre that ought to take up the time of the House— they had paid off the debt. 'The New Zealand Company . it i Tres not a measure of exh-ency to be passed this had a lien upon those lauds, and it had . certainly done %k n :-.. much to entitle it toThe cerisidetation of the loonsh '" 1 Sir le F • , • MOLESWORTH said When his Hon. having purchased all the rights.of the French settlers,. tis nd lei s T , the Member for Montrone observed that there and mede the island an entirely British colony. it.tnes.. ? - 0 ureen, with regard to this measure, be should removed the lands from the Crown, 'sein e h. Y and be entreated . the • ble claim; e a t teat the measure of 1846 was a far leis liberal lose its only statute . hof faith. Reser ehe company would le7 a) Ll l 7d that if this measure did not pass, they would House not to sanction such a brae_ th at ~ ge'l to pass an Act for the purpose of suspending ence had been made to the Crown lands of the Australian is het for another year. Now, to the passing of such colonies, but there was a ales!in the two colonies—inas tje w e t he should offer all the opposition in his power. tween the . royal d , important difference bee. tiw e 48 a nxions that the settlers in New Zealand should much es th New' ` Zealand more than 9-100 as of them ~ as sri.etlil 1 eel _ ... e t- yas p oss ible the management of their. had come into the possession of the . Crown under the itC B " o att irs, both for their own sakes and for the sake of Act of 1847. The only. mode in which they could out Gordian knot would be to give the company a home te eed 'S:trY, being firmly convinced that until they ob hlditur'e no of stole would ever be put to theimmensti ex- the guarantee, instead of its present security. This would be. the cheapest coarse, fur combined with -.proper referine, ear.). ioi o this country for the coloniel.—(Hear, hirkable colonyone respect New Zealand was the most re- they might save it by 10,0001 . or 1 - 5,0001, a year. ' At Ilse number of country ever bad—in proportion to allevents, ho supported this grant of a constitution to settlers and its existence, it had cost the people , of New Zeeland. ll'klitae• lar ger suns of money than any other colony. Mr. GLADSTONE e suggested that the pion referred 15g_one for the civil, le t " the last eleven years no less than 1,600,000/, t. as having been prepared by the late Colonial Gueern military' . and naval expenditure mess: should be laid on the teble • of the House. iiit:eCted with that colonY•—(Hear, 'hear.) He• had Goland THOMPSON begged to offer the Right Hon.., lli e e tie d with great attention to the- speech of the Gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) a, warmer. congratulation h L a s h t .. ll onourable Gentleman,. and although . ho should than any that he had yet heard. Did- the Right Hon. tit i C r e rY at that moment to give an opinion on the de- Gentleman know that he' was proposing a system of e le et the measure, he thought it one of the most colonial policy that would put into our possession as eel ea % constitutions that had ever been offered to a much of the empire of the world as an.honeet man would it s , 3 '" - (liear e hear.) He agreed with him that there wish to acquire? He thought that a few moments tha t Hl one central council; ho disagreed with him might be useiully employed in pointing out the import , hi th ell' e should be nominees. He agreed with the ante of the principle which the Right lion. Gentleman s y It ea euon. Gentleman that, from the peculiar manner has been the fortunate means of bringing forward and th eat i e c t : t i New Zealand had been colonisecl,tha in t u t t h itu ey . putting into execution. The great bang and injury of. our colonial system bad always been the difference of t i,hia a e veloP as much as possible municipal le a , 'at they should divide the colony into six pro- races; but now of that difference 'the Right. Hon. Gen 'he i and that each province should have a provincial tieman was likely to see the end.' We were now in the le ti t with a president; and, in his opinion, the pro • same position towards the natives as that in which lis- 1 4 14 ought to be elected by the inhabitants of the pro- tory informed us the Romans stood to our rude' fore stiir l• • fathers. The Right Honourable Baronet had given them ze ii iv - h ; , Se rr OTT said with regard to the observation of evidence that the native inhabitants of that colony were rld C o s' "hon. Gentleman, that the proposal with re- as nearly as possible in the condition our forefathers t ' 5 , drown lands would create a ferment in Australia, were. He was not sure whether .our forefathers ate he e t (lu ld assure him that the ferment that already hay body, but it was quite . certain . they roasted its rid there on that subject could hardly be increased, them.—(Leughter.) These natives were to . partici.. tattl ed was highly necessary that that question should be pate in the benefits of the constitution of this country; tle sa esnd the principle recommended by Government and he hoped that when the present race of states -44,344 in this Parliament. Seeing that it would be men had long passed from this sublunary scene the t ea TY if some such Bill as this did not pass to carry Right Hun. Baronet would be quoted as having laid th e e tt an l t t e i n r s e io lu n rm A e c i t, e, surely it ought to be the desire of the foundation of an empire more extensive than would t a ._ sitting on the other side of the House, otherwise have fallen to our share. —( hear, hear.) It (et a . "wooers should be carried Which conferred on the had not been stated what was to• be the qualification of thi.„ IB ts extensive power of legislation', rather than that the elected; if it was to be the same - as that of the eke krr'llihild carry a suspension Act tors he sheuld b© quite content. Lie did not approve . of Zitsa h i i • ROVV AHD believed that ' the colonists of New the proposal that 7,0001. should be expended for the ho e s'" were most anxious for representative institu- benefit of the natives. Why should ' they be treated as 'Th e teed' v great difficulty Parliament had had to con- children? j • its 4 „ t e m was the constitution of what might be called Ste O . HN PAKINGTON said that after the cordial tj aa hli r house of assembly. Unless the representative manner in which his proposal had been received, he felt tie t " was infused into the upper assembly, he did not sanguine, with every disposition to meet all fair amend t4ighl T e, could give Permanent satisfaction. There meets, that theilt a ne n i y gh n t bi b e e u c t o in m n o law this reesien. Ho to his measure from the 0 2 5 . something said in favour of the retention of had not anticipated Of a i, " l l list, but he thought it desirable that the salaries such a friend to local sell-government as the Lion. 4 ess e l e ers should ' bu regulated by those who had ) Member fo fi r t o s u t t a r t o e s m e. ent H , a wished to supply an ends hushon the financial part of the , N ew Zealand for their home. Having said thus sion in his B rs a statement in his hand, he found that Il irt te Di d o e trusted that nothing would revert the House question. expenditurey of this country for the govern 'l) stfer eeed.ing with the Bill during the present session , the annual Z- Ind not including the maintenance of ths sl ued his thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman for ment of . New . flea a h , d fluctuated from 20,000/. up to llioa and he and zeal which he had shown on this aces,- the military force, t his' he should earnestly enter on a consideration of 36,0001. a year. In aaddition there was a vote in 1843 of 21 0001., for additional ex an,jeontisertant 'subject with a view to give our fellow- of 54,0001.; I shtar al n that country something like English repro- pauses aboveatuhdeisnumlBssohe had , mentioned: In the esti e l Sir Vi n ' s year he hoped mates of colonial expenditureofotrilhenepxretsent year, this ktisosS N. BUXTON said he had listened with great item would be reduced to 10 h t e, - . - I` lo rt to the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle- it would only be 5,000/.; and after that there was every th a eat with regard to the franchise there should be reason to believe that New h Zealand ar would be altoge .) Ile had beili toked t etss e reu se between the Bill of the Right Hon. Gen- ther self-supporting.—(lie ear, tieg and that of Earl Grey.' He rose for the purpose as to the limits to be as.igned to e . the several provinces. state Ill g the Right Hoe. Gentleman whether he could Sir George Grey, in his last dispatch, stated that each 1i4 1y 19154t number or Proportion of the natives were of the British settlements ha d now attracted to it a sar i° I l i a ' s nave v otes in this new franchise? It seemed rounding population of the native race; the two races N ana t hat the measure was a very f a i r sc h eme f or t h e stoo d to ea eh other in the relation of landlord and tenant ta d f f at a NOW Z -gland, and would give happiness and were insensibly forming one community. ti T e ( l E i t , ti fi r . , tlr r' ':,, n to the native pepulation.—(Hear, hear.) hear.) These natives were entitled to share I°l 4 'll-,DERLEY said that almost the only point loes of their fellow-citizens. They were 120,0 . 0 c 0 .v in . ti l - t tl i e g_rate , d upon his ear throe hour the Right Hon number ; . they varied very much in their degree of i . i si n. 'nail 8 address was where he thought it necessary liz Atm) ; many lived in districts which . might not be in itere'er into statistical information with regard to the eluded in the different provinces; and it was to promote i,l 43 e of the population and commerce of New their civilization, by schools and other means, that ite; s ,nd, in order to persuade the Housethe col my the 7,000/. was proposed to . he voted. .The Governor she a)io for representative goverumen:.W thathy years ago would be empowered to prescribe the limits of the &I sm ~ tie was fit for it.—(lelear, hear.) fills House fernnt provinces; and there would no doubt be a very it. hot gli ti i '', the acknowledgment over and over again; and large district which would h not be contained in th, se the aterwa t k e , the Crown had given tx-brohdeveognition of noes. Sir George Grey proposed to introduce mu. provinces. „ t hin t a`; - (licar, hear.) And he was etthnished to find nicipal arrangements . for the different classes; and he netted' tl 'Y gentlemen who called in question the believed the object respecting which the . Noble Lord kttiptlac'nf. Gentleman with ' this measure now were the_ Russell ) bad put a question . would be attained. But, lab. f enti man (Mr. V. Smith) sad the Hon. certainly, the Central Legislature would have a general - fo rmer' er Montrose (Mr. Hume). With regard to the , control over the whole oi the islands. He had no objec• hiti, that Bight }Jon. Gentleman must have made up lion to the plan of' Sir George Grey being printed for Wer e l l irld on the subject long ago, when his friends the use of the [' s ouse. . titre t i n n ti e t f4 ), Ce s he himself inplan had Lord J. RUSSELL said that never been duly the Cabinet, and 'the pre ') le ' the measure had drawn near its close. As considered by tits ' 3 Hon. Member for el spoke of Leave was then the Legislature.. given to introduce the Bill. • 1 he , • Montrose , who h ee sesstty of ,' THE MILITIA BILL. relieving* this country . from ten, ePenditure on account of the colonies , before On the motion that the House should go into Committee. (4, Ad measure as the present was, introduced, he on this Bill, ' I N fat i de rleY) would tell the Hon Member frankly Mr. COBDEN'rose and s . p . ok . follows : - 2 Mr. Spaake o r e °f s -1.1 3 7 that he should do justice . before he talked Had the majority in the division on the second reachng t ber 'sotto - tet e h 111 Y, and 'gi ve t o th e colonists their rights this Bill fairly represented either the population or the ea lgd 0 threw upon them the expense of government, wealth of this country, eitber I should not have ventured to offer 1 44 s: p a s the only colony'. Ea gland ossessed whichhighest Minister oae word more, to resist or . delay progress of the r But I have the sanction of the . It en Ytning like its own rights, and was, moreover, be Witter r i ' s v ed. the only colony from which England , couldanalysed . .I save ° Crown for, the course listsl have taken on this question. I have taken' the division and them; . and, sear upon i t troops.-•-(Elear,' hear%) He' would not amongst that large majority of 2to 1 who . voted in favo f ur th e e f it s pti "Pon the details of the measure in its present stage; the Militia Bill, I tel not the reeresentatives any o of and th liCi P l e would be discussed on tilts second reading, large centres of intelligence, industry,.and . wealth lh , d of th any re. Co nan !' details would, of course, be reserved for the our large city populations. In the minority h te n r Bin e ning- Iste sg It tee. But he would take that opportunity of ex- presentatives of Edinburgh, Glasgow , s ter e , ti g his gratitude,. and he was authorised also to a 11 1 e c b ° e n s e , ' Lambeth, tlea e 2 the gratitude of the colony represented by gee- ham, Westminster, Southsv_a r r e k enwi l l c l N aL Tower Hamlets, Finsbury,. G h Y the largest of our hs e a l " now in London , to th © Right Lion. Baronet for borough fi v e n r l:..ag t e n n e c i i i e p s e , rt, also, Newcastle, Hull,Southatnpton, Worcester, Sheffisld, Northamp heees,Fso Promptly, upon taking office, recognised the u ee sae '"S? of this measure, and addressed himself Si) vi- to l n, ( flu'ddersfield, Aberdeen, Canterbury, Montrose, i. Bath, deh It undee, Coventry, Leicester,' Preston. The City of Ic n ,__ 4 ily to bringiog .it forward.— Year, hear.) He Leeds and Liverpool were divided on this question. 11_7 that it was a considerable task, and that the Right Jest, Gentleman bad'epared noanvass another place were also divided ; but the two t Members pains to master tee sub- who voted for the militia have declined again c Gil . and !hough , he felt that upon several oints of de- for their seats. Middlesex and West . lor b k e sh e i t r e e te are ef d . i p vided. .public q`: , ho differe& widely from the Right - Honourable I can say for myself, knowing what is t tp Il ielnan , Yet he knew the feeling in the colony opinion in West Yorkshire, that next to free trade there is ef l e so , strong with r eg „ 4 to the urvacy it s the measure, that he WUS pot,of the Militia no one question ter en which re-election I wouldt h ahee m e o n r i e ep fe p a e r e l e e r ssly go to that .deletariltsh . e and i ts ' e r • ' . u p r A i n t) g ' tl ( l f e ' 44 Cant , nt—he was grateful' '''eti'Y content and more constituency .cb s Bal.— k a ll t r ging t ' hose differences as to rather than take the altk•rna'ive of a Bill a . d e d n i d tio a n il t t o be th l i e s rg te e st tn w w e u h e a i v h e t B b oo e k a;t g i . - tions against the , it. is a ature proposed,opposition to We have not had one the iither suspension of the constitution of New Z,saland. i lion. Gentleman's . dot are is . I, t4 tlre wpm two points in the Bill, however, to which he , the Government is not competent to proposesuch nor one meeting in its favour.- (Cheers.) I do not pretend ?isathbautt these facts alien' fair ground, at ail events, why lit t : anxious of directing the Right b Mien, and the first was the composition of I should' move a reconsideration of the measure. - (Hear, the hear.) I wish there facts to be known, not only in this ts il a i)s ; r Chamber. That it should be composed of the country but in a neighbouring country. I wish them . to in s -fl ees of the Crown WAS, he thought, a great blot .know that the great centres of intelligence and population l a se the measure, for the system of nun:at/untie stunk t ae in this country do not join with those gentlemen in i W eal e nostrils of the colonists, and theand who proposed chamb er Ilouse who call themselves statesmen, forsooth, _. , - ... 1 4, 1 , oth c : 0 0 a mere caricature of .in . our House of Lards. T he rise in their places- possessing great authority on other gins posittou winch th, ',Point was the very subordinate . _, e t' • , • this d tell us ions which is evidently lost on - a nthat we are tv w t : i r o Vinci I L . a egts atu la danger l res would be placed. The ~,,• f rom our neihbours, and must he prepared for in- Iti - ," he wholly under the control of the Central Legis- " t hoon uy a horde of savages. —(Laughter.) It is evident I tt ' t t'i and • - fthat body would be the only i g s . e ja. ae great mass of the intelligent people of this country te sa ,in act, constitution, he a, s e ieve --( eers. or these the colony. In so framing the 64 t h e exp. essiun of opion that the population are indifferent to 4 "t the Right H . •Beronet rt b ef 0 on. -th was putting . , u security of the realm. Hive oave the It contemplated on other copulation acted "'tin - °re the horse."—(Laughter.) °mash) ?S na ir Walter Scott tells us-- . al Legislature "On Win e i i g . .hubjects in the handa of the -Central a sudde n the land seemed converted to an immense the I'rovin- camp, the whole nation into old etas would be better under the control of a:he himself into a General ' iTldiers, and the l good King hi' h' e fti 1 ' A 'llustration of la° appeared fur a time - 11tht a inures; ano as an i n • lay the in-Chief.considered All peacefu . me to be thrown aside, and the voice calling Ibentiland fund . might a . on the diminished than 11 14 l 'en. Gentleman had rather Parliament, and in meetings convoked f s eyed statesmanlike aurae of defence, but was heard in to second . the mea hsteee the provision which formed a there ment, and mingled even • the places of public amuse "tied - in the plan of Earl Grey. What fear with the voice of devotion." he b s of • 'et s-ht of eel Adderley) was - %it their land funds, he k r. a auestion as on all others, wnere it i - of this 11 us ? (Cis deuce 0 e eera • • s ne,essary, take prece- Mth Y at a 10was eaten up• / How is a that they have )., h o loss to conceive. The colony s the lead ?—(l.l.ea r hear '• had 410 ixj . the colonistsnot believet ha t ' ' b use they do ) Simply and solely ~_ n e smanagement. Six years ago day sea _becauset.believe any groundlor an '' , i stileste . • • Secretary per- in of alarm, and 1 '‘i,in , dof the Colonial of that they they havealready hod s ~,i build lighthouse toe atom abundant sacrifices out of their resource. ir ~.. a at Port Nicholson; ,made . icieet to ea ll ot i ere trial r eady, and all that was required was that the m eet all the dangers that may impend over time ocountry. Po e a ine_ecretary should get an Act passed for the pur- 1 i They thinh,a which would build a Manchester ornaey(lllans: __o4) Presetl British Parliament. Yet from that day to j / amity — a Celli h ar-‘that in the present state of the affairs of twlly th e the lighthouse was not built. In the same 1 gew every Y there is no necessity why they should leave their I "it. h q bad been unable to get moorings put down in the world ehh ,„ her ations and turn soldiers in their own defence il looked f d now, however to a rofitable occup (Hear, hear.) l am going to deal your ~ `o„, e ~. e orwar ne st - ofall that and he could not but express his so 4 i t()% flat ' ' at a shilling a daY• - • with your army, but with your the present occasion, not wi been taught, to consider the safeguard ea tae , at the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Pa- which we have of old England" cost a °1:14,, ") had not allowed the colonists to -suffer from a navy, " wooden walls . . e s lle of , The of England. e it is the opunonuf the country . rt tioth, (eovernment here at home, with which they s 1 to this country ; and t us• tVe vote 6,500,0001 ", dr; " I ng to do, but that he had deemed it his duty great deal be able to protec : 11 ' e g in that they ought to including the packets IS e e 00 ,,,_ . :. m e easure conferring censtitutio i nal rights on.• for our navy and establishments,navae.and I include those,arbewcaeuusbei bein iie c e a sny 'st in n behalf of he pegged and of thankt to agenta hot for, the Post. e effiasethe very brunt of t t h b e en w Si " ' %Int this Country, egg() . the 1 4 the case of hostilities, the Govern heron , °man for having placed the subject with such borne by those packets, which are larger or run t or s 4 bilit would . e able to catch anything, le e-, y before' the House. ' ' - • meta steamers, and of the sac they are,oneb than . ''• RUSSELL thou htherefore 1 g..t the Right Hon. Gentle- . away from anthing; .... back to lla WouldOlean) , Gu'Ug I to have been justified in merely introducing a i most essential s parts of the navy._ 0 „. 00/ On our nevy. W 4 4 h a nt the' t't tion for another , year• hut 1 1 8 , I , e was ad taken ebtls 1 U , . 35 I find we spent only 4,50 0 , e eOO 000 i, Why, to ' • i have since increased that expenditure eee ee w as e the pains to .prepare anew consittution, .., , 'which you n t o tot rod entitled to the gratitude of the House for the 1 d con , meet the very difficulties an • ingenues . 1 we In 1836, it was said rose us tion of the measure.—(Cheers.) With ' sly you are making provision fur. .. t i , reet to al present and you added b,OOO Noble Lord) est e(' 0 measure itself, he (thewere going to have war with Russia, with Russiaebta the men to your navy. There was no war to i t . Mlare Would not be any considerable opposition , had to 10 ilia additional force was kept up. In 1841 and 1842 you p n „ . t House, and he hoped he might be able to difficulties in China and Syria, and a threatened t te em it 0 rapture lete en ea , n some of the Points on which the Hon. Gen- with, Fr the difficulty ance ; and in - 1842 occurred ~„,,, !ion. „ s k ell% Adderley) had threatened. it with opposi- 1 with America . about.- - the Maine boundary. .vh e 1, 11, ' t he Councilappointed b e th e not to I added to our navy then on account of the war in China there h authority which it used to possess; but a I a and Syria, and the chance of a rupture with the united l ea , was no precedent whatever of the working of an 1 ' - States • Those ' difficulties passed away,but the.. navy aye 0 ,.,..,_ . was never reduced. In 1845, there was a very %emelt, he thought the Right Hon, tae with the States about the Oregon territory. There was a strong pro bability cf war, and an increase of 1,000,0001. or 1,200,000/. wash agreed to itqfheenaysy ,estimates. We then formed what; was called Aa squadron of evolution; it maraca-suer near our own shores ; the Queen - paid a visit to it; and it was said at the time. -that. tliere was 'as large a' fierce in that squadron as had gained the battles of the *Nile or Tra falgar.-(1-lear, hear.) The Oregon dispute was settled; but the squadron was not - at all reduced. Then came the dispute - with France about the Spanish marriages. The dynasty of Fiance • had passed away like a dream ; and, -in stead of coming here as invaders , ha d been glad to receive our hospitalitx.--iChaesSe) -stin these preparations .had QOM. tinued, . and that on a scale large enough to meet hostili ties from , a power far more . formidable than France; for there is no doubt the. United States ie. far more powerful; and yOu have all the, force you Prepared' to meet that power, and also the force eshu prepared to , Meet France. This year we have voted 39.000 seamen and boys, and 5,000 for a reserved force -in all '44,e00. -You have, therefore, all that you ever had during the - time I - arri speaking, of. There is no authentic source from. which I „can ascertain, th ee xact state of our naval forces. No annual report is made of the number of .voesels-where they are stationed•-a, how many are in course of Construction or in ordinary. We have to hunt through' the militarY or naval periodicals to fiird this out, and then We do not find the number of men. The only Source from which I Can obtaiu the latest correct account of our naval forces is from' the speech of the late First Lord of the Admiralty in moving the navy estimates for 1850, and he says that we then had 252 ships in Com mission, 261 advanced and in ordinary, - mid' 6 ready to be launched., This is, in round numbers, ships built and build ing, 500. I have no doubt ow present naval force amounts to very much the same. How is 'that naval.force disposed of ? Here again I am fast in the same - difficulty. I know not where to apply to know where the vessels are stationed, and what is the amount of force on each station. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Borne Secretary, in introducing this Militia Bill, on the 29th of March, told us the number of vessels at home ready to sail. He said: "Your ships in commission on the home station at this moment are, 9 vessels of war, 5 frigates, 1 sloop, 9 steamers propelled by screw, and 8 propelled by paddle." And he grounded his Militia Bill on the statement thatalaat was all the force we had to protect our shores. But when the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Navy spoke he said he had to add to these the following list :- * '' " There were at Woolwich nine vessels with 530 men ; Sheerness, seven, with 1,541 men; ,Portsmouth, sixteet, with 6,642 men ; Devonport, eleven, with 2,822 men ; Cork, five, with' 365 men ; in all, 48 vessels and 11;906 men. To them add the Hecate (cruising), 160 men , Pluto, 55; An telope, 55; Vulcan, 1 52 ; making in all 52 vessels and 12,3.28 men, exclusive of 4,500 marines on shore, and coast guard and dockyard battalions; in all 29,645 men. In ad dition he had to mention that. the Simonet and Vulcan, large ecrew-steamers, were each capable of moving a regi ment, and there were several small steamers besides.", This is a very different stateme nt front the former. 'What I wish to have is an exact statement, such as - I have moved for, of the number.of ships advanced, in commission, and in ordinary. Then comes the important question, how are our ships disposed' of - en- foreign stations? I served twelve months on the Naval Committee' of 1848, and I came to the conclusion that there is a great waste of the public money in keeping large ships ,on distant stations under the plea of protecting our commerce, for which purposes they are never available.-(Hear, hear.) The Secretary , for the Admiralty also gave, us, in that same speech; the - amount of our naval faeces on the different foreign siationse which consist of seven -the East Indies and Chins, the Pacific or west coast of America, the south-east coast of America, the west coast of Africa, the Cape of Good Hope,•NorthAmerica and the West • Indies. and the Mediterranean. ..11e-says that- • "'The whole of her Majesty's ships in commission were in the East Indies and China, 19; Cape - of - Good Hope, 9.; coast of Africa, 22; on the south-east coast of America the number of ships was 8 ; west- coast of America, 9; North America and West Indies, 13; Mediterranean, 19." On referring to the report of the Naval Committee, I find that in 1837 there were only ten 'ships ' on that station, and that we had been keeping three or four vessels for some' years on the coast of New Zealand, iii consequence of the troubles there. Now that we propose to give a constitution to New Zealand, and to hand over all the •waste lands to the l oca l Legislature, we May pa rtl y dispense' with two or three of these; one ship will be sufficient to be left there.-(Hear, hear.) I dare say - the war in Burmah will be urged against . our bringing home more ships from China - and the East Indies. But while we have nineteen ships stationed in those seas, the East India Company have also a large fleet for the protection of commerce, and they profess entirely to protect their own shores ; therefore whatever fort% we have there must de entirely fot the protection of our trade to largsh ip the Ch i na, and not to the East Indies. . Looking at the amount of our exports to China and the Eastern Archipelago, ex p e nse of that imme nse fleet is alto g ether ' dis p ro p ortioned to it and to the wants of the case: To - place war to serve as a police, where the only enemies e of cth orn f tnerce are pirates who keep the shallow waters, in like em ploying a field battery to look after pickpockets in the courts and alleys of the metropolis.-: (Cheers and laughter) You have paid head-moneeefor the slaughter of 10,000 per sons, about 100,0001. in two years. The ships employed have all been small vessels, and in destroying that amount of pirates you have not lost a man ; there has not treeen such an amount of `resistance as to cost you the life of a single individual. To keep very large vessels in these seas is quite unnecessary. I think our admirals might agree, as our commodores do, to hoist their flag .on board a frigate where a' line-of-battle ship was proved'noteto be necessary. ..._( Rear.) The Pacific, or west coast' of • America'station, was formerly united with the coast of South America; but in 1833 it was formed into a separate station. The Right Hon. Gentleman tells us we have seventeen ships there nine on .the Pacific, and eight on the Atlantic station. A large increase took place on'this statioa in consequence of the threatened rupture with America on the boundary question, and the dispute going-on - id - Buenos Ayres. Du ring six years we have had an average of 2,000 men and ten ships of war lying in the River Prate, interfering in that dispute; and vet we effected no good 'whatever. I believe the merchants themselves at last agreed that pur interference had done more harm than gocd, and had retarded the progress of negotiation. Now, General Rosas,like many potentates on this side the Atlantic, has become expatriated, and is in this country; so there tsari end to all necessity for -interfering in the affairs of the River Plate.-(llear, hear.) You may safely take away six ships from that station, leaving 11: and then you will have a larger- force to protect your commerce than the United States hae, though their trade is much greater since the discovery of the gold of California. -On the west coast of Africa the Right none Gentleman tells us there are e 2 ships. The number there is nearly doubled , since 1836. I say, bring home every one of those ships. which you are not compelled to keep there by treaty with to the Cape of other powers-France or America.-(llear, hear.) Ido not • know whether any of theni have been transferred to Brazil, Gentleman said we but if they have they will be far more likely to do harm thou Igiooopde.,--Ls(ndllea,rv,hehreeatr.)e H had nine vessels. Now, as the Kafir war may be urged as a reason for not removing any of our vessels from that station, I will say not one word in • -favour of removing a .l en n o b u w ra c° ble ine: s the Katie war.- single vessel from that station .pendinee (Hear, hear.) I come next to t he West Indian and North American station, where we have thirteen ships, and in pro portion to our trade with those places there is no portion of our commerce which required so little protection as that with North America.-(Hear, hear.) It would be an insult to the United States to say that we required vessels to Pro t to do not send ships tact our commerce there.-(Hear.) --(Hear.) to this country to protect their commerce here • And if you attend to your own affaira, and do no for t mesh ip ddle in in those of others, you have very little occasion s . West Indies, North America.-(Hear, tear.) • As tQ the you are trading with your own colonies, and, of course, you don't require any great force of ships. on that coast.- (Hear, hear.) And here, again .I mu st obserye • that no- thing is so useless as a line-of-battle sh i p on. the West Indian coast. lam told that at Kingston the officers give balls a entertainments on board these ships,-but 15 to the• use of a tine-of-battle ship to protect our commerce in the West - Indies, it has none whatever. --(Hear, hear.) I would with arils four out of these thirteen vessels from the North Ame ricau and West Indian station, and I would have them of the larger size. -(Hear, hear.) I now come .to the last and seventh station-that of the Mediterranean. We have thir teen vessels on this station: Now it is stated in the evidence of Sir G. Cockburn, that in his opinion six frigates and one line-of-battle ship was as large a force- as .would be required on this station iu time of peace.-(llear, hear.) But at teis moment we have six or seven. line-of: battle ships with twelve or thirteen smaller Vessels, being the largest collec tion of vessels on any station sailing under the orders of Admiral Dundee from Malta to Cephalonia and Smyrna.-- (Hear; hear.) Now, I want to know if you are really se rious when you say that there is danger of an invasion, be cause, if you are, your conduct is that either of children or of madmen, to leave your own shores unprotected whilst you hove the largest concentration of vessels you possess 1,200 miles distant.-(Hear, hear.) - My _proposition is that you should bring home ten out of these nineteen vessels, and leave nine, which is three more than Sir G. Cockburn said would be necessary.-(Hear, hear.) -Bear. in mind that I do not propose to being these vessels home in ord er to dis mantle them, or to lay them up in ordinary.; 'but as you say that there is danger of an invasion, and that it is therefore necessary to enrol a militia, I say bring home these vessels -have them in Spitheed, or Cork, or Plymouth, instead of the Mediterranean.-(Hear, hear.) But I hear this objec tion-if you bring back the fleet iu the Mediterranean, then France, which has made a great °diminution of vessels in her northern ports, will bring back her ships into the Chan nel, and then we would be no' better-off , than we were be firre. Well, but if this be so, ,what becomes of all the rea sons which were given for increasing our navy ? -(Hear.) I have heard it said that France had no reason to be afraid of our large navy; that this was au island, that we had a large commerce to protect. and that we wanted a large fleet; that we were not a great military. power, and that our having a large fleet ought not to raise the susceptibility of any other country. Bur now, whew I say,. bring your fleet home, I am told, "Oh, it will raise the susceptibility of France, and they will bring their fleet to the northern . ports, and so we must become a military nation." - (llear, hear.) If this be true, you have obtained t he increase of. your navy-under false pretences.-(Hear, hear.) I say if you apprehend an invasion bring home your fleet from the Mediterranean, and France would haveno rightsto feel s jealotis 'so long as she kept up a standing army of 350,000 men, whilst we had only a small army, and which I hope the good sense of the people of this country will not permit to be increased.-(Hear, hear.) We have this ' fleet 1,200 miles off, and then the Hon. Gentleman tells us, as he did the other night, that Hull and Dundee, and some other - places, were left wholly unprotected.- (Hear, hear.) Surely this was either a joke or an insult to our understandings.-( Hear, , hear.) Why, five of the places which were said to ,be undefended sent petitions against the Militia Bill.-(Hoar, hear.) 1 have been arguing on the assumption of the advocates of a mi itia that we 'want more defences.. But I confess I do not see any present danger in any direction--(11ear) -and I have hot beard one fact urged that should excite any appre heneion.-(llear.). We have had :every assurance that could be 'given' th t a no furtheameasures Were necessary. But it been • ..- said we are liable to war at any time.: I don't believe that, pelt tinned against and the . reason, that people .have amiliiii is that they don't. believe it- likely or Practicable that may hate a people would read w l l. war at any moment. .If what took place History; and. more especially the' details of and our nearest, to, the ruptures between this coun tryihey would see that neighbour diirieg the lest hundred years, a sudden. Did the cul t Was not likely to be rushed upon on a sudden? In 1792 we Fatten of war in 1793 take place on when the King withdrew our ambasaa o was put to death,..' sl rfrom France the public functions of the French and we gave notice that this country. But the French.Ab Ambassador Ceased in re trained here in his private capacityua raador, AL ,Chauvelin, and daring that time lie made, everyrom August i till February, ties. Many representatives from 11- an e c t o!t to avert liostili had private interviews with . Mr. Pitt, ea had come here, and Was almost forced to leave this country.nd the It m, ambassador L eg Months after 'the ambassador had left ti as not till countries came into actual- hostilities.-_(!tear, the two Again, after the treaty of Arnim,. in 1802- e r , hear.) everybody knew a treaty which would not last-although there - Win was what was almost tantamount to, a declaration of war on the I 80 March, 1803 ; and although. Bonaparte went so far a: 1 )f offer a'.personel insult to our. ambaesacler,,Lerd.Whitw or tl il W yet L9rd WhitivortO i t extremely nacult to obtain . - . LO a passport, and his attaché had to hunt Talleyrand through out the provinces of France before he could get one ; ',and it was, not till the following May that the two countries came into collision.— (Hear,• hear.) France could view. , it as no light matter to be brought into collision with a people eo brave, so energetic, and possessed of such great resources as the people of England.—(Hear, hear.) But then it is said that the present ruler of France is` not to be trusted—that he is a man who would disregard all inter national - considerations of policy and justice. Now, , what ever may be said of the present ruler of France, if merit is to be taken as a test of success—and I am afraid we are all too much disposed to regard it in that light —Louis Napo leon had shewn no want of talent. Whatever may be thought of his moral sentiments, he has shown that he was no block • head. -(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He had reached the highest. pest. in the state, the people seemed to acquiesce in hie rete and he obtained a larger civil list than the Queen of. Fneland --- (Hear, hear.) It was all couleur d rose with him. and yet we aro told- that this man is going to depart Irene all recognised principles of international action, and that he is, going to invade our ' shore-•.—(Hear) I have a friend in. France whose name, if I quoted it, mould he re ceived with respect not only in this House, but everywhere in Europe. I wrote to him on this subject, to ascertain if he could give any information to confront the Most silly panic that ever was known in this country. Here is his answer, comprised id two linee:—" Louis Napoleon, if he made ware . musr do• it through one of his generals. If that general was successful he would eclipse him • if he was not he would ruin him."—(Hear, hear.) But understand that lam not here asking you to trust the good faith or forbearance of anybody—(Hear)- - but I say. that Louis Napoleon is not so foolish as to contemplate . anything so suicidal as a buccaneering attack on our shores would be.—(Hear, hear.) When we hear that he is dispatching astute diplomatists to the north and to the south, and that he is everywhere carrying on negotiations to attach persons to his interest and cause, was it to be supposed that at this very time 1 he was going to run his head into a war with England, and that he was going to invade us with some 15,000 or 20,000 men ?—( Hear, bear.) . I have heard it said by the , Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, that it was possible for the present ruler of France to invade this country by sending 50,000 or 60,000 men from Cherbourg in the night. When I hear such statements as that, it accounts sufficiently for all the old statesmen sitting on this side of the House out of office.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) And Ido not wonder that Lord Derby should hope to find new a n digg•k 's" and new veins, and that he should discard the old " placers."—(Much laughter and cheering.) Surely it is little less than an 'insult to the good sense of the country to make such a prediction as that.—(R ear, hear.) Will any man say that 60,00 0 men could be b roug h t to Cher bourg, and landed in this country without our having a month's notice of it?—(Hear.) I wish we had a Committee sitting on the national defences, and I should be glad to in quire of the Adjutant-General the necessary equipment to send 60,000 men into a country, and more especially into a country that had a hostile fleet which. ruled the seas, and was ready. to intercept and cut off all retreat.—(Hear, hear.) I should. for I like to ask what cavalry would be required, presume that when this army lands here, they do not mean to run about and catch horses.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I should like to know what amount of artillery and commis sariat stores would be requisite.—(Hear.) Such a statement as the one to which I have referred is a mockery of the good sense of the people of England; and the people of England, by the public meetings which they held on this subject, and the petitions which they presented to this House, showed that they did not,believe in the possibility of such a sudden invasion.— (Hear, hear.) But this argument is used, that the application of steam' to the purpose of naviga tion exposes us to invasion. I believe lamto be followed by a gentleman wliohits more experience and technical infor mation in these mattersthan I have, and he will tell you how absurd it is to suppose that the application of steam to navi gation has given advantages to the other nations of Europe over us. Why, coal and iron, the chief elements in steam navigation, we possess in greater abundance, and of finer quality, than all the nations of Europe put togethen In cotton-spinning'oi manu f ac tures did steam give gre a t er ad vantages to other countries than to En g land?-- (gear.) If . not why should steam give them greater advantages in its application to navigation ?—(Hear. ) But it is said steam boats would enable an enemy to leave their ports at any time to invade. England. But did not steam enable us also to send out our steamboats to the ports of France ? —(Bear, hear.) Formerly the same wind that blew the French versels towards our ports, prevented us from, m eet i ng those vessels--(Hear hear.) It was then impossible to sail a line-of-battle ship in the wind's eye; but now,, hove_ ever the winds blows, we can send oa r vessels to Bou logne or to Cherbourg; and, what is more , the y can remain before these ports like a rock, thus hermetically sealing up these ports.- (Hear, hear.) When Lord Nelson was blockading the port of Boulogne' he was frequently driven away for three weeks together, but that could not occur now with steam-vessels.—( Hear, hear.) The authorities of the Post office can tell you how often their steam-vessels have failed of reaching that port. Now this gave us a greater advan tage than any other country, because we had a far greater steam force, and I have no doubt it increased our defensive power ten times.—(Hear, hear.) A return had just been laid on the table of the House, from which it appears that we are possessed of 1,300 steam-boats. This IS a larger number of steam-vessels 'than is possessed by all the nations of Europe put together. (Hear, hear.) And we are now building others, whicli would give as double as many as all the nations of the continent of Eu rope possessed.—(Hear, hear.) I could not say thesame of sailing vessels, because there are a largo number of sailing vessels building in the Baltic ports, but there are no . means of constructing steamers in these ports.— (Hear, hear.) I will quote to you the evidence of naval men on this sub ject. Admiral Berkeley, on the 31st of March, 1845, before this absurd discussion arose, says—" The Executive Go vernment of England had it in their power, at little or no expense, to have a fleet of steamers equal not only to France, but to the whole world. Let them look at the ports of Lon don, Liverpool, Glasgow, and all our out ports, and they would see what a vast number of steamships might in a very short time be made available for the purposes of a steam war." Admiral Dandas said, on the 26th of July, 1844, that we possessed 1,000 merchant steamers, 280 of which were large enough to carry 32-pounders—a force which is sufficient to overcome the combined fleet of the rest of the world. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Navy under Sir R. Peel's Government (Mr. Corry) said that in case of a war we were able to command ten times the force of any country on the continent, and that three months after a declaration of war not one of the merchant vessels could ba found at sea.—(llear, hear.) Do you sup pose that the French Government—do you suppose that Louis Napoleon, who resided in this country —are ignorant of these facts? —( Hear, hear.) Why, France :does not pos sess a single ocean steamer, and my Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Orkney says that we have in our mercantile marine 20-horse power in steam for every one-horse power possessed by France, and I believe be has not exaggerated in the least. —(Hear, hear.) We are told that this steam navigation has made abridge over the Channel, and this parrot cry has been taken up, and repeated from one mouth to the other. But I hope that in future we are done for ever with this foolish no tion. Well, then, if steam has been of such ene mies by sea—an advantage which we sharech use eq to o our equally ll ywith them—how much had railways added t o our sense cf security in affording us increased facilities for the transmission ' • o f troops from one part of the country t o . a 1 another ?—k car./ I have here a few lines from the evidence Gof Sir W. or - don, the Quartermaster-General, gi ve Committee in 1844, in which, spe,khin before the Railway he stated that in two years from Deceg i on this very point, De cember 31, 1843, there were 130,174 persons—officers, 31, 1841, to women, and children—moved by railroad under men, lions in England. Speaking of railw under his difec -43'8 generally, he said— " I should say that this mode of railway ' abled the army, comparatively to the d conveyance has en it, a very small one, to do the work ofemands made upon You send a battalion of 1,000 m en from a very large one. London to Mulches** ter in nine hours • that same battalion take seventeen ' slays ; and they arrive at the marching would end of nine hours just as f as when they started." Well, her resh, or nearly 50, that we are enabled 'now, by meanse we have the fact of r ac complish within the Space of nine ho ailways, to seventeen days. o effect in the ti me of t urs what it took us ther, we are told that we can transportpke gates: Far as of largo a body troops as we could assemble in Scotland from Edinburgh to Dover in twelve hours; whereas this to be done under ,twenty-f our a" Is not this was formerly not an enormous advantage? And does i m mense control over the army we it not give us an ashamed to pursue this sabject furrssess? I am really lieve that there is any man —at ie ee aer, and I cannot be intelligence—who places any confidence on man of sense and have 'had lately about our defenceless in all this talk we hear," and " Oh, oh," from the Opposition condition.—(" Hear, proved to yon that there is no reason foron benches.) I have I suppose in the minds r ot some persons all this alarm; but protection and such other superstitionsns who still believe in , there may be found to exist some fears of a French inva sion.—(Laug,hter.) I really have to beg pardon of the French ' common sense of this countr f nation, and of the e ven to such dangers, though I even do so but c h YPother ii alluding I myself have not the smallest idea that an s' lea Y• than there did two years ago, an d , 0. 3 .. ' such exist more now you were then. All I will say is, t " h a a r t e i a f s strong now as forcing forward this Militia Bill, at all eventsou insist . on taint your fleets, and let the people of the first bring country ascer hat the money which has oeen a i re been properly expended, and let the _tdy laid out has • -Nrench nation see that it , is not the people of England , v but the Execu , tive Government of the co . nntry th at 4 re sisting imaginary dang e r s. 1 would is bent on.. beg Honourable. Gentlemen to consider for one rnoinent the 0_ gross that is being made in these d ays in and pr , tures, and in all the works of ingenuity and ;LW, manufac- t ' believe that all we have been hearing i n ti _ .s rt. I do no the tendency towards peace is anything mere House about and delusion. When I have heard Honourable than clap-trap on both sides of the House express their belief Gentlemen derful advance that had been made in in „ t "i na t t in the won tigatioes—when they talk ot the great discovereileortant inves of the electric telegraph, the extraordinary rec_hssof the age, communication that we poseess—why, a say 1 4 of inter to be sincere; but I, at all events, have a full believeconviction them the tendency of all these great improvements is tion that peace, and not towards war. Sir, because / towards danger because believe., no to exist to this country, and n o been given that we require further defence,l proofs have resist thero grass of this Bill;' and I hope, at all events, that though the Government may not be willing to withdraw their Bill, they may not refuse the returns I am looking for , which will enable -the people of this cou ntr y to j ud g e how far these ad ditional defences are called for.—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded, by moving as an amendment on the motion for going into Committee o n the Militi a 13 1 11, " That to enable this House the better to consider the provisi ons of the Militia Bill, a return of the effective force a the royal navy on the 31st day of March last be laid on the table of the ,* House such return to contain the f ollowin g p ar ticular. viz. First. The names, armaments , nu mber of crews and 'of.fieers of all her Majesty's ships then employed in active service, the stations on which they were employed, and the length of time each vessel has Linen employed on each station re_ spectively, distinguishing, steam-vessels from sailing- vessels, and also steam-vessels etropelled by screws from those pro 'pelted 'by paddle-wheels, and stating the nominal horse power of the enginen of each vessel. Secondly. The same theports • e of all eeserVe or advance ships, with . . at which statement of the period they are now 'placed, and a etatei 'would be required to send them to see in . a fit state for actual service. And, that the consideration of the 1341 i n after the production of such Committee bo postponed untie aft return." ' Mr. ANDERSON', in rising "to second the amendment, • e o from no factious feel begged to assure the House he did • . ings or party motives. While the Hon. Gentlemen opp os i te sat on the Treasury benches he was quite willing to support them in any good measures which they might propose, while he was equally prepared to oppose all their obnoxi ous propositions. For this reason he had opposed the seco n d reading pf this Bill, as he should h av e done that of the late Government, as well as the amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton. The House, moreover, had resolved to consider the Bill, and therefore it was of the utmost importance - that they should have the largest possible amount of information before them, to enable them to de cide on tbe'requirernents of the measure. For that reason, he helieVed, that the returns moved for b y his Hon. Friend the Memb er for the West Riding were highly,111111;" necessary for tile Proper consideration of the Dill in "4", H e could not help expressing his surprise at the whole tone of the debate.—( hear, hear.) It really seemed to him that they would ignore - England's. being -a maritime nation at all.—(Hear ; hear.) It 'appeared to him as if it- -was a - Parliament in Poland, meditating- in what way an incursion from Russia was to .be resisted. quite forgetting that we had a moat around us called the British Cbannel.—(Hea r , hear.) The Noble Lord • the Member for Tiverton had talked of .60,000 men coming to Cherbourg and walking from their barracks on beard ship, and landing in England without anything been known about it; .bat the Noble Lord wholly omitted one iniportant con sideration, that there was no railway to Cherbourg, nor was it likely there would be. Bat still, admitting these 60,000 men were at Cherbcurg, there was yit a want remaining most necessary to facilitate their operations, and that was ships to walk into.—(Hear, - hear.) He'would try to throw some light upon this matter. First, then, with regard to those terrible steam.bridges on which these men were to cross the. Channel ; he would beg to read to the House a statement of the comparative strength of the English and French steam navy, that respecting the English 'fleet being taken from the navy estimates of 1818 ; that of France from their official navy list. In 1818 it appeared that Great Britain had belonging to the royal navy 174 steam vessels of all classes, being an aggregete of 44,480- horse power; , or, deducting packets, tenders, and yachts there were 103 steam-vessels available for purpose. of war; • namely, 4 line-of-battle ships, 23 frigates; 48 sloops, and 28 gun.vesseLs, of an aggregate of 32,327 -horse power. By the Etat Generale de la Marine, which is the official French navy list, of the year 1849, the steam navy. of France consisted of 78 vessels of all classes, of an aggregate of 17,740 horse-power. But, de ducting 20 small vessels ' called avisos, in like manner as. is done. from the British steam navy, it will leave for parposes of war a French steam navy of only 58 vessels, namely, 17 frigates, 1 i corvettes or sloops, and 20 avisos of the first class—answering to what we class as gun-vessels— being in all 15,740 horse-power. So that at these periods, say about three years since, the British war steam navy was nearly double the number of vessels, and something more than double the steam power, of that of France. He would now make a comparison of the commercial steam navies of the two countries. In the year 1849 an estimate furnished from the Board of Trade gave the whole corn-. mercial steam shipping of France at 3,000 horse-power, and about 10,000 tons, and he believed no great addition had been since made to it. He (Mr. Anderson) stated recently, when he brought forward the question of rendering a part of our commercial steam navy available for the national de&nce in case of need, that the United Kingdom bad about 1,300 steam-vessels, of all classes, in its commer cial navy, of an aggregate of 300,000 tons, and upwards of 100,000 horse-power. He stated that as an approximate estimate. Since then, a return which he moved forlad been printed. It showed that, on the Ist of January last, the registered steam-vessels of the United 'Kingdom amounted to 1,218 vessels ; and as he was aware from private,'but ac curate, sources of information, that there were at least 100 steam-vessels in advanced states of construction, or since completed, at the various ports of the kingdom, he con sidered his statement was fully borne out. He had made an analysis of the return alluded to, that is of vessels of 200 tons and upwards, which would stand thus:— Vessels of 200 to 500 tons ....•264 tonnage 86,416 tons. ~ 500 1,000 ~1 18 „ 78,461 „ „ 1,000 2,000 „ 34 „ 35,013 „ 2,000 3,000 ~9 „ 23,155 „ 425 vessels; 243,045 tons. The vessels of four companies now employed in 'the Ocean Mail Contract service, and which were under _their con tracts available for warlike operations,. were 70 vessels, amounting, in the aggregate , to 93,421, tons, and 32,500 horse power, being more than double the power of the whole French steam navy, in 1849, and • more efficient both for speed and capability of, armament. After this statement, he trusted the House would not be at all alarmed at the idea of a bridge of French steamers being built across the Channel. This country possessed such an over whelming steam power that not a single French soldier would be able to leave port. There were steamers enough to blockade all the French porta, and to prevent any vessels from leaving them. He felt no hesitation in seconding the amendment. . The question having been put, Mr.. STAFFORD said the Hon. Seconder of this motion seemed to be animated by a somewhat different apirit from that of the Hon. Gentleman who moved it. While the Hon. Member for the West Riding expressed himself as dissatis fied with the amount of knowledge respecting the navy which was then in possession of the House, the Hon. Member for the Orkneys, having got a return seemed to have got all he wished for, and, except in the last sentence of his speech, made not the slightest allusion to the motion before the House.—(Laughter.) The House must, he thought, have observed with astonishment the amount of nautical lore in reference not only to the commercial marine, but to ships of war, displayed by the Hon. Member for the West Riding. Where the Hon. Member had studied the subject it was not for him to say;. but that a gentleman professing to be with out official information should be able to say that six ships should be taken from one station, nine from another, one from New Zealand, and that a certain number of ships should be left in the Mediterranean, must certainly appear astonishing to those who were not aware how much time the Hon. Gen tleman had given to the study. Now, was this the only as pect of the case ? After the Hon Member and his party had voted 44,000 men without a single comment, he now brought before the House a motion whose sole and specific object was delay. He was very much disappointed to find, as the Hon. Gentleman proceeded, that he had no explanation to offer in reference to this change of tactics.—(Elear, hear.) Now he put it to the Hon. Gentleman, what effect these returnscould possibly have; Were they to suppose that the towns which the Hon. Gentleman had named would be influenced •by these returns; or that the returns would tend to diminish the amount of support which this measure had received, not merely from places which enlightenment had reached —(Hear, and laughter)--but from places as important and as much deserving of respect as those to which he had on that occasion, as formerly, narrowed his views? - (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) must here protest against the system of explaining away the majorities of that House. Those whom they (the Ministerial Members) represented had as much right to have their opinions and the votes of their representatives respected as the constituencies of the district to which the Honourable Gentleman was in the habit of referring.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem ber said that 6,500,0001. was spent in our naval defences. It the Honourable Gentleman included the packet service I he ought also to include other items which had equally little to do with defences. Did he mean to say that all the scientific 'branches, which were as useful to the com mercial marine as to the navy, and the freight of troops, were referable to naval defences? Such representations were a fair sample of the fairness and accuracy which charac terised the Hon. Gentleman's statement. As regarded the precise number of vessels employed on any particular station, the Hon. Gentleman might take 'an arbitrary figitre, but no Board of Admiralty could consider itself tied Clown to the maintenance of a particular number of vessels in any one month.—(Hear, hear.) It would be guided by the commu nications which it received; and that House would, he be lieved, never require confidential communications o n mat ters of t h e highest interest to be divulged. Take the case of the West coast of Africa. If one vessel or two vessels more were found to be necessary for the end in view, would the Hon. Gentleman say that they should be withheld? The Commander-in -Chief on different stations often stated that they required more ships.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright); and in spite of that cheer, he must say that, in his such persons, being on the spot, were far better able opinion,nto, judge than the Honourable Gentleman. The . Hon. Member for the West Riding quoted the precedent of 1793. The delay of the war at that period arose from the want of preparation; but let that precedent count for what it might before, the Hon. Gentleman himself de stroyed its weight when he said in a subsequent part of his speech that steam had placed us in a new position, and that oar forefathers would not have thought of undertaking what steam would enable us to accomplish with ease.— (Hear, hear.) That was the real state of the case. When the Hon: Gentleman spoke of the facilities with which our own troops might be moved across this island, he appeared entirely to forget that similar facilities existed in a neighbouring coun try, that not only soldiers but crews of vessels might be ra pidly conveyed from the south, to man the twenty-six vessels H in the northern ports. The on. Gentleman himself could not deny that it was owing to the increase of our fleets that peace bad been preserved, and that our preparations had compelled our enemies—if we had any—to respect us.— (Hear, hear.) The motion submitted to the House was one which had never been granted by any Administration. It had been repeatedly brought forward, but it bad always been held that to grant such a return would be highly detrimental to the service. The statement which he ( Mr. Stafford) made in reply to the motion of the Hon. Mem ber for the Orkneys, showed that the Government did . not wish to conceal any information which they considered it right to give ; bat this motion could not be granted unless the House resolved to constitute itself the Board of Admiralty. In matters of this nature it was necessary to repose confidence in the responsible ad visers of the Crown. Some of the particulars included in the motion had already been laid on the table"; but the at tempt to obtain a return of " the names, armaments, number of crews' and officers of all her Majesty's ships employed on active service," &c., must be met by the Government with a' positive denial. Its immediate effect would be to give more information' than the Government ever yet granted ; and as to the animus with which the Honourable Gentleman brought it forward, the motion went to overturn and reverse the whole system of naval management —a step which he trusted the House was not prepared to take. —(.Hear, hear.) There might be defects in the Admiralty, and he hoped they would be rectified; but as it had been managed, and he hoped would continue to be ma naged, 'it had protected the commerce of the country and preserved our shores inviolate; and he asked the House not to declare to the Commanders-in-Chief abroad that this country had no confidence in them, or to show that it was determined to take the executive into its own hands, by demanding information which the responsible servants of her Majesty 'did not consider it consistent with their duty to grant.—(Cheers.) Mr. CORRY concurred with the Hon. Member for the West Riding that, in discussing the question of our national defencea, it was not possible to separate the military from the natal services; but he also concurred with the Hon. Gentlemen the Secretary for the Admiralty, that the infor mation asked for by the Hon. Member for the West Riding ought not to be given by the Admiralty. If that informa tion were given, it would throw but very little light on the subject, and the country would not be at all the wiser through it, unless it were accompanie d b y returns of the , naval force thatemight be opposed to it. Nor did he thinkah oa the consideration ought to be proffer ed for the product Int )8. of any information on the subject of our naval Nye_ tion of the names, the armaments, and the e dttiteen the cause the official Navy List contained suf fi cient uletos:remao-f the ships in commission.—(Hear, hear.) He hasavy Lists, trouble to compare the French and the English pos and he thought he should be able to put the c a session of sufficient information on the subj.eehip to the he was necessarily familiar from his apprentichat the naval the ship t both countries er than those forces of this country were incomparably g Admiralty. The House need not be informedett hreour navY Was of France—(Elear, hear)—but althoug gave great advan greater, there were circumstances which staves were the rages to the French navy. Those circu 'Vieth which of the two countries and the system aa a Jo their reserved which they obtained men for the wh ere I were considerable geographical position of France, the dis . tri b t teiittioinnoFf rtahneeZebtys ships of war, while in England (Hear.) With respect to the first of w difficulties in finding men to man of geographical position, it was 1." the Mediterranean, but ro immediate the Eng retained their largest squadrons the se a i l f a o n r t a se g r es v i , e t e h — a t n ho r m e I the event of the French lish it was a foreign station. , that sea was for the French navy:: I n y t a nd Thu on, squadron in the Mediterranean bei n ispatch g liaris to Toulon would service, a telegraphic o n r o d t e r r e s ci fr u o ir m e so m any the French Government -littniwould take days to send q e :i w ire h d ile fo f there was no reason sent a telegraphic message to a not had to Brest in a fort why the French fleet should n. F on had a most important com night. It was true the, e re t n e I , Mediterranean, but the steam munication to maintain lame Meth that was four times as navy of France is the that a considerable portion great as that of England, so t Toulon • ther resPec might contrz might be`spared. In SW bate to the naval foree suddenly available. There were at Toulon seven ships o± the line fully manned by 6,000 men. It would be the height of rashness to send those crews round by sea, but they might be conveyed overland complete. By sending their crews overland, the whole of -the French navy in reserve might be directed against our shores. But the main advantage was in the difference of the distribution of the French navy as compared with that of England. This country had most important colonial and mercantile interests to protect, while those of France were compara tively small. The consequence was, that the greater part of the navy of France was on the shores of France, at the command of her Government, while the greater part of the English navy was cut of reach, and was unable to give us any assistance in case of attack upon our shores. - (Hear, hear.) On the Ist of January, 1852, the distribution of the naval force of the two countries was as follows: England had 138 sea-going ships in commission, ee:clusive of packets, with 33,000 men afloat. The French had 137 ships and 25,000 men. The English ships upon foreign stations were 108, with 21,000 men; while the French had, incled ing the Levant, only 57 ships abroad, with 7,000 men. England had at home, including the Lisbon squadron, ordered home, 30 shi es , with 12,000 nr-n, if their comple ments were full, while the French had at home, including the Toulon division, 70 ships, with 18,00 J men. The real criterion was the amount of actual force, and the proportion was as 33 to 25 between England and France, but the pro portion abroad was as 21 to 7, while in the force at home it was as 12 to 18. So that while the total force of England was one quarter more than that of France. we had abroad three times as great a force, but only two-thirds as great a force at home.—(Hear, bear.) The House would observe that, with less than double the number of ships abroad, England sent three times the number of seamen to foreign stations. This arose from our sending the greater part of our large ships, sailing and steam-vessels, to foreign stations, while the French retained the whole of their larger ships and steamers for the home statio n . Th e French had not a single ship of the line, nor a single steam-frigate, nor even a first class steam corvette abroad. The largest steam-vessel Which France had upon a foreign station was the smallest class of corvettes, of which she had only si x a b roa d . England,' on the contrary, maintained the greater part of her most power ful steam-frigates and steam-corvettes abroad. France had two steam line-of-battle ships, 11 steam-frigates, and 19 corvettes, making 32 in commission, of which only six cor vettes were abroad. England had three steam line-of battle ships, 12 frigates, and 28 corvettes in commission, of which only 14 were at home, and 29 abroad. Of the lat ter there were one of 800 horse-power, one of 650, four from 500 to 600, seven from 403 to 500, five from 300 to 400, eleven front 200 to, 300 horse-power. Excluding packets, England had in commission 64 steamers of 18,900 horse power, while France had 77 steamers of 17,500 horse-power. Of steamers ready for commission, England had 31 of 10,500 horse-power, while France had 30 steamers of 82,000 horse-power. The total number of ships in commission and ready was, in England, 95, with 29,400 horse-power ; and in France, 107, with 25,700 horse-power. But England had abroad 47 steamers of 13,300 horse-power, while France had only 21 steamers of 3,000 horse-power. England had at home, including the Lisbon squadron, 17 of 5,634 horse-power; while France had no less than 56 of 14,400 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) The merchant steam navy had been spoken of as useful for the defence of the country, but when war broke out, if the Government took a North American, or West Indian, or Mediterra nean steamer, how could a communication be kept up between England and her colonies?—.(Hear, hear.) The French also, under their maritime system, could man their navy with greater facility than we could man ours, and had a large reserve of sailors, well trained, available to be called upon at any time to serve in the navy. By the last French register, after deducting the men in the navy in the merchant service, there were 45,000 liable to be re quired of whom about one-half had already served a term of tour years ; but we, with a registry of 210,000 seamen, found it difficult to raise 30,000 men, and all untrained; whereas the French had enough trained to man the whole reserve. Under these circumstances it was obvious that we ought not to trust our national defence exclusively to our navy, and therefore he was anxious to support this Bill. As to our land force, his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Wilts had the other night demolished its supposed efficiency; for it turned out, that instead of having an army of 105,000, or even 60,000, we had only somewhere about 20,000 ; and when Hon. Gentlemen talked of the military defence of our shores, and our mercantile marine, they should recollect it was impossible for merchant steamers, our dockyard batta lions, or our Royal Marines, to be in two places at once. The dockyard men were very valuable for the local defence of our dockyards; but they could not be removed from the dockyard to the field—(Hear, hear)—and it was the same with the coast-guard. They would be required for the re venue purposes, and, therefore, the steamers could not be manned with them. The Hon. Member for Westminster claimed the marines as an auxiliary to the army ; but if a war took place, so far from the marines going to increase the army we should have 3,000 less, because they would be required for our ships. For these reasons he thought we ought to have a Militia Bill, and he preferred that mode, because if the regular army were increased, after two or three years passed over it would be reduced; and, secondly, because, although militiamen might not, in the first instance, be fit to be trusted in the field, they would take off a great deal of garrison duty from the regular troops, and leave a larger number, therefore, for actual service. He trusted, however, that if this increase of force were agreed to, the Govern ment would not relax in their regard for naval defences, which must be considered as the most important. Upon that part of the question he, to a certain extent, agreed with the Hon. Member for the West Riding. He thought a great addition might be made to our home squadron, not so much by reducing the number of ships on foreign stations as by reducing the force on those stations.—( Hear.) On some stations steamers of 200-horse power would do as well as those of 800—(Hear)—for it had happened that in all our operations since steam was introduced into the navy all the work had been done by small steamers.—(Hear, hear.) It was s in China, Parana, Burmah, and the other day at Lagos. He thought we ought to maintain a large squadron en the home station, and that it was a strange arrangement that British interests in all parts of the world should be pro tected, and those. at home neglected. He hoped, therefore, the Government would maintain on the home station a re spectable squadron. As to the question of national defence, none could be more important. In that respect he was a com plete Protectionist, and he trusted the Government would not be deterred by any consideration from adopting such measures as they might think necessary to secure the defence of our shores. Mr. CARTER (who, it will be observed, took the oaths and his seat in the early part of the evening) said, he should not have so soon addressed the House had it not been that the session was likely to be so short that he might not have many chances of speaking.—(Laughter.) It seemed to him that the speeches of the two Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken were no answers to the motion for returns of our naval forces ; and, indeed, went rather to support it, for they went to show that the greater part of our naval forces were abroad, and the obvious inference was that they ought to be brought home. He certainly did not think the mere fact of the Hon. Member for the West Riding being a member of the Peace Society a bar to his forming a just estimate of the position of our mili tary establishments. In conclusion, the Hon. Member said he rejoiced that upon this, the first occasion of addressing the House, he was en a bled t o lift up his voice in favour of peace, and in deprecation of that expensive system of armaments which had so long oppressed the people of this country. Captain BOLDERO said that the present motion pre tended one thing, but really meant another.—(Hear, hear.) It was part of the political creed of the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) to oppose all estimates, more particularly those relating to the military defences of the country—(Hear, hear)—and whatever might be the nature of the Militia Bill, that Honourable Member would be found voting against it. That part of the motion which asked for information as to the present state of our defences was wholly superfluous. The Navy List actually supplied all the information that could be desired. Then, what was the real object of the mo tion ? Delay. Even had the Government supplied the required statistics, this motion would have been pressed by Hon. Gentlemen, who, whilst they clamoured for a dissolu tion, lost no opportunity of obstructing public business —(Hear, hear.) Such factious conduct, he thought, came with a peculiarly bad grace from the Manchester school.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) had, the other night, attempted to fix a charge of inconsistency on the Noble Lord the Member for London, inasmuch as that, in 1848, he advo cated an addition to our standing army, and he deprecated a similar proceeding in 1852. But in 1848 we had 15,000 more rank and file than in the beginning of 1852. He (Captain Boldero) should prefer an addition to the army to having recourse to the militia, ,and would adopt the plan suggested by the Honourable and Gallant Officer the Member for Windsor (General Reid) for recruiting in advance. It had been contended that France was making no military pre parations. They had recently learned, however, that the French Government were augmenting the Chasseurs de Vincennes by 7,000 men, and were forming a local corps of 20,000 men in Algeria. With regard to the militia force . b to e thought that by limiting the term of five years' service _, three an advantage would accrue. A bounty of 6 a /- __ .. .1: spread over the latter period would yield about los. week and this would be felt quite a boon by the tha rur t a t l h p or p o u w la aa tio u n o . He agreed with the Manchester School ear, from the Man immediate cause of fear of invasion. (he chester party.) The apprehension that— mexoimsteendt.waAs ud founded hat on the political state of France at . this mdlnbgeaerkeodf was the state of France? An unmitigated dasespeaotis by an army of hirelings. But there Louis Napoleon invading our s If he did, however, and we were only tree to ourselves, he would assuredly not succeed.—(Hear, hear.) Admiralty e h n e ts had h Mr. BRIGHT said, the Secretary taken upon himself to lecture, or s Hon. Member for the West Riding, touching the accurate y t arl ev t liad h oniy h bi o_ en h in e office six information he . had obtained about naval . affairs..—(Hear.) As the Secretary to the Admiralty weeks, never having been previously known be very pro foundly versed in naval sir . 1* as e4 a t i ne Member he West Rid ' seemed in a position to ing, who, at all events, had 'for three years fort ebeen a close at g) h I yT The eo Icon.investigate Gentleman who master had tendant upon the Committee of that House which had made it a special busißeeassrpthhooraoru. the subject.— ba just spoken said that the object of this motion was delay; but be contendedh that it. was to place before the House exist ingwit facts re gard to the means of d e f ence, so that, hav jog them plainly v before them, the Ho use wou l d b e in a better position to discuss the propriety_ of any f ur th er expenditure for military purposes. He maintained that it was one of the propositions I m portant that could be mostsu bmitted to the House, for it involved this striking circu rn"' stance , that it was intended nearly to d ou bl e the num ber o f persons who were connect e d w ith arms, and notwith standing that the preamble o f th e 42d of George 111, set for th that a military force u n d er th e command of officer s possessing landed property within Great Britain w that all I till to the Constitution, he took the liberty o f statingas essen otiou to and be m ilitary establishme n t s b eyon d w h at could be shown absolutely necessary were c on t rar y t o the Constitution to the spirit of representative institutions was . (Hear, he ar .) He maintained that th e measure o f the Government hostile to the indu s t r y o f th e coun t ry, and injuriousw d t o n not e free dom, and that th ere was no i n t erest which prejudiced by the establishment of a militia, unless it could be proved to be absolutely necessary for the safety of the 1 country. He would discuss this question, however, only upon the pri nc ipl es o f expediency_ and policy. ' They were asked to spend 350,0001. more. The 15 ,.0 1 00,000/. already voted left us in a most insecure and position, but add this 350,0001. and we might rest st P v e i 3 r s i fi: j ed u u s t u hr England was sale from invasion. —(A laugh.) interest upon a principal sum of 1 " ) ,000,00 ° 01 , N s v o as tl t ia h t e t , having already invested 1,200,00004/. ofthe ' property of the country, this 12 ,000,000/. was to be add to make us perfectly safe. Before they could ask for this e were bound to show him either that there wasm money y ie new danger, or that there had been discovered some insecurity of which Parliament had been hitherto ignorant. If there were a new danger, where was it? The Noble Lord the Member for London had himself dwelt on our peaceful rela tions with foreign countries, and the Noble Member for Tiverton, and the Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department, had been equally emphatic on the same subject. Where, then, was the new danger? The Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield had repudiated all that, and intimated that th ose distinguished men really did not mean what they sa id —t h at it was a disguise—that the fact a' was, that they had grea t fears of au attach from Frauce , 1,. and especial suspicion of the present ruler of that country. Now, he did not believe that ; but, for the sake of argu ment he would admit that the supporters of this Bill did believe it. Well, where were the grounds for it? It should be remembered that there was always a party in this country in favour of a panic —any sort of a panic —and that a cry of suspicion against France, and for consequent raititary expenditure, was always ready. They should remember that Sir T. Hastings, a distinguished military officer, insisted in his evidence before the Com mittee that the French had a burning desire to come to this country to revenge Waterloo, and he quoted as one of his authorities the Bishop of Madagascar.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But had the people of France shown a single symptom that they were anxious to pick a quarrel with this country ? Neither in the time of Louis Philippe, nor under the Provisional Government of Lamartine, nor under the Republic and National Assembly, nor under the President, had the people of France exhibited the slightest hostility to England. if such a feeling had existed, however, surely under all those changes it would have been manifested.— ( Hear, hear.) It had not been manifested, and he con tended, therefore, that as far as the people of France were concerned, there was not one shadow of ground for this Eill.—(Hear, hear.) Look at the conduct of our press. He did not wish the English press to shut its mouth when any thing was enacted in foreign nations which it believed to be contrary to freedom; but our press had for two months maintained an incessant daily fire of accusations against the ruler, and too often against the people of France. The French press during all that time, though under the control of the President, had never retaliated, or attempted to create in the minds of the French people a feeling anta gonistic to the people of this country. He would admit, for the sake of argument, that the French President had shown greed of power, that he was cool, reserved, calculating, and unscrupulous; but it must be remembered that he was ep prcved by the majority of the French population; and, if there were ens reason more than another why he was so, it was because he had not plunged them into war. He ad mitted that they did not like the theory of his government, but if the French people, disagreeing in that, yet supported him because he had given them a permanent or temporary repose, the House might depend upon it that they would not rest a single instant if he should manifest the slightest inten tion of sending a piratical or marauding expedition against this country_ There were no preparations made in France. No body had shown that any more ships had been added to the French navy or troops to the French army since December last. He was surprised that among the extraordinary fallacies which had been ,stated in the House upon this question, no one had ve n t ur ed to state that Louis Napoleon had done what his renowned uncle was said to have done when he proposed to invaie England, viz., that he had put up finger -posts upon all the roads converging towards Boulogne marked " The weer to London," with a hand pointing across the Channel. A story of this kind would have created a panic much: more successfully than some things which had been stated with that object. He recommended Hon. and Gallant Members to try it the next time they wished to create a pan ic.—( Laughter.) There were two suppositions on which e.'ae House was invited to proceed sv war r ande. T t h h n e n. . U n l i t was a t s o a n t ; t there and t w h o e u s ld e e b e n e d a w d a s e - c w l t r h a t i t o h n i s o m f that there would be a pi rat i ca l an d maraud i ng exped i t i on ad i te f inoyns there tthhnat w t, ,u u fs n aw d g e ae r rs t a no k fn e he n invd i in yl t zh l e t ad e d night. an attei 1 "waceconatr wg l a a r t r a n t de served o he n e. nations — N e f l w t o n ' da to e cn served to be called civilized—(Hear, hear)—there must be negotiation and delay to such an extent as to allow time for some of that immeasurable foi 'cc which the Hon. Mem ber for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) had spoken of being brought into the Channel to defend our shores.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had spoken of 50,000 men landing in one night. [An Lion. Member-60,000.] Well, 60,000 ; the Noble Lord was not particular to a 10,000 ; but he ( Mr. Bright) believed that 60,00'9 were just as likely as 50,000, and 70,000 just as likely as 60,000. But what would Louis Napoleon gain by adopting that course?—for men did not act without motives. He would ask the soldiers in that House to say whether they thought that the French army were likely to see any glory—he was not saying in a war with England, but in a piratical expediOon against this country ? Did they believe that Louis Napoleon would be safe in the French Government one single month after he took the step which some Members of that Hoer.se assumed that he was likely to take? Did they not think iehat Russia, Austria, Prussia, would league themselves against such an attempt on the part of the Government of France?—for, was it not worth more to the settled Governments of Europe that the ancient and venerable monarchy and the settled in stitutions of England should be maintained, rather then that a firebrand, such as Honourable Members wished to make out the President to be, should rule over the rrench nation?—(Hear, hear.) If, then, there was no other motive the motive of self-preservation alone would prevent Louis Napoleon from taking such a step against the people avid Government of this country. But, to return to the state ment of the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, with re spect to the probability of 60,000 men landing in one night, he begged to say that it was an incredible statement for a' statesman of his experience to make. But, assuming that this invading force were to escape our fleet, and that our troops were dispersed and unable to meet them, how did the R:ght Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department expect to be able to get the militia to meet them? Why, with the help of the electric telegraph he would be able to get the dispersed soldiers to the coast before those agricultural labourers, weavers, and mechanics had got on their clothes.—(Laughter.) In his opinion, no case whatever had been made out in favour of the present Bill. He protested against the inconsistency of the House. In his boyhood he remembered that the cry was for reliance upon " the wooden walls of England," and poets made songs and odes of all kinds on the subject, such as— " Britannia needs no bulwarks, No towers along the steep ; Her march is o'er mountain wave, Her home is on the deep." But now the wooden walls as well as the military ser vice were forgotten for the moment for the blundering, miser able, undisciplined horde which was proposed to be brought together by this Militia Bill.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Gal lant Member for Chippenham had stated that the army had been reduced since 1848. Well, that very fact ought to be a warning both to that lion. Gentleman and the Govern ment, because the military expendifure at that time was such—amounting as it did to 17,000,0002., 18,000,0001., or 19,000,000/. a year, that the people were positively alarmed and horrified at the course which the Government were pur suing, and insisted upon a reduction ; and he warned the present Government that if they either passed the present Militia Bill, or added to the army without making out a better case than they had yet been able to do, they too would ere long be obliged to yield to the popular demand for military retrenchment.—(Hear, hear.) His opinion was, that if there was anything like a real, thorough, imminent danger in the case, there was not a soldier, or a policeman, or a man in any way connected with the military service in the kingdom who might not be made available for the pur poses of defence, for he was sure that in such an event any county, city, borough, parish, or hamlet would secure its own peace, and leave the military and police to be placed at the hands of Government for the general defence.— (Hear, hear.) But the fact was that the present was no thing more nor less than a mere panic, than which there was nothing, in his opinion, more adverse to genuine pa triotism and true statesmanship. Sometimes a ,political panic was got up for the purpose of trading upon it. Last year the bishops got up an eccle s iastical panic and. traded military service, which was upon it, and this year the .. the military expenditure, were always anxious to increase Hear, hear.) So long trading upon a railitaryt panic.—( ithad been said that in the ago as the time if Ta9 . ue science and the military pro course of a long peace military se and to fall ' into neglect, and pro fession were apt to be forgotten it was to prevent this th at all this disturbance and alarm more and money had been created, and in order that expenditure. — ( Hea more r, hear.) might be voted for military e He (Mr. Bright) would t ake upon himself to say that the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton was the father favour of a Militia of this Bill. The Noble Lo rd was in favo it was that Bill in 1848.—(Hear, hear.) I n truth, Lord did not deny Noble Lord's hobby, and the Noble it. He presumed that in the exercise fo r of his great influence over the Noble Lord the Member L o ndon ha had dragged h e uestion that Noble Lord into his v iews of t was the Noble Lord afra id of? He could hardly;bbut e serious what in anticipating an invasion of 50, 000 men from a ruler whose ht) last he had thought it extraordinary conduct in Dec r e i was not _sure that in his right to applaud. He (Mr.. B g not say that dispatch the Noble Lord did r by he thought the peace of Europe would be mad th sa e e course Louis Napoleon took upon. this occasion.— Hear ( , hear.) But he wo uld say at once that the Noble Lord was no auth or it y w ith him on questions of . this nature.— (A l aug h . ) He did no t pretend to Set his opinion against the Noble Lord's. The House probably thought the Noble Lord a much be tt authority that he (Mr. Bright) was.—(Cheers from er Min i ster i a l benches.) The views of th e N o bl e Lord wthe re gard to a militia were perfectly consistent political schemes. The establishmentof with is would liberate so many soldiers from a militia The creed of the Noble Lord, so foreign service had observed, had always b far as he (Mr. Brighty uni versal diplomacy and incessantbeen in favour of countries. He wished always interference with other always seemed to have the to have the power, as he ing somebody or some disposition, of cajoling or bully- Hon. and Learned foreign country.—(Laughter.) The was his great champion Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, who called the Noble Lord two years ago, on one occasion Bright) presumed thatth " a lucifer match."—He (Mr• as an extinguisher in is great military force was required case of any case of incendiarism break ing out.—(Renewedl had already paid laughter.) But be thought the counteY Noble Lord withenough for some of the projects of Lao (Cries of regard , to Africa, Brazil, and elsewhee " ') The efforts of the Noble Lord to do so much for freedom abroad, while he did so little for it at home, remi n d e d hi m of one of the characters in the new work of Mr. Dickens, so mach so, that he felt disposed to call him the Mrs. Jellaby of statesmen--(Laug hter.) He opposed the Bill, because no case of urgent necessity had been made out, and no proof had been adduced that the fleets and troops of this country were insufficient. Military men differed in everything with respect to this Bill except that the Government plan would be useless for defence. He wished the House. to bear in mind that every argument which had been used inifavour of the present Bill, or for an increase of our , forces, would be just as powerful next session in favour of an additional increase, for what they were dia. , cussing was not so mach a question of fact as of impression and sentiment.—(Cries of "Divide!") He should not trouble the House by entering into the details of the Go vernment Bill—( Hear, hear)—because he objected not only to the present Bill, but to any increase of force in substitu tion of ,that pibposed, there being no case of necessity made out. There was one thing he would tell the Home Secretary, for it was an argument he could appreciate, that there was scarcely any one who had been connected with the militia 50 y ears ago but was ruined in character.—(" Oh, oh I") He was stating the experience of the very men who had ex plained the matter to him , for he was not old enough to remember it himself, but he 'believed that so far as tne°ff i n d us t r i o us avocations were concerned, the men eeneVre with the militia, on retiring from the service , were intatea, c h arac ter, morals, and in their prospects in life.—(m ° Christien and cries of " No.") When he was addresein t g of this reesentatives of a Christian nation on a further na ture—whenshe he was endeavouring to show that ueeecessary, h e penditure for warlike armaments was t would be fairly ehould, at least, expect that his argumenasbie and Learned onour c ousidered.—(Hear, hear.) The 1 - 1 casion took on former oc Member for Sheffield on a pe ace party—(Hear, him to sneer at what he called threedlo court,tcheers from hear)—and he received, as he a ee "etut the peace party could the opposite side of the House. rt would last longer than ' stand those sneers ; the peace P - a endeavoured y to introduce d if they . the war party—an legislation some principles of into into statesmanship and they could afford to be sneered at. It morality— (Laughter)hing that, though 3,000 years had was a lamentablet sculptured marbles were first worked passed since those had seen in the British Mt w hi c h so manyiseum, yet at eengaged, 1,800 years of Christianq eY that very mo and not reluctantly ere that night son the part of w ma py, in precisely the same sort of proceedings described We m arbles, where were pictured those armed men, horses, chariots , processions, battles, and captains—(Laughter) — and no doubt there were priests too now, as there were then, who blessed the arms of the Assyrians, and offered thanksgivings to the gods for slaughter. He believed the Bin not to be one which gentlpm —um connecked with the GO*