The Sun. — London, England, 1848-07-08 00:00:00

The LORI) CHANCELLOR moved that the Usher's report be referred (as we understood) to the Committee on thl proceedings in the case, which was agreed to. The House adjourned at Seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 7. The SPEAKEa took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. Mr. FAGAN presented a petition from a place in Ireland, Complaining of the imperfect state of the har bours of that country. Sir CHARLES BURRELL presented petitions from Sussex in favour of reformatory asylums. Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Kingston, Jamaica, praying for protection. The Hon. Member could not agree with the prayer of the petition. Mr. HOPE presented a petition from Gloucester against the Diplomatic Relations with Rome Bill. Mr. OSBORNE presented several petitions in favour of the ballot. Also petitions from Worcester in favour of the abolition of church- rates. Mr. LOCKHART presented a petition from the West India Association of the city of Glasgow in favour of protection. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented petitions from Rochdale praying for the abolition of the Central Poor-Law Board. Also a petition from the same place praying for the adoption of a system of education in Lancaster supported by public rates. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from a parish in the Tower Hamlets in favour of the Charter. Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition from War wick against the Highways Bill. Mr. G. BERKELEY presented a petition from Glou cester praying for the abolition of the Central Poor-law Board. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. In reply to a question from Mr. OSBORNE, Mr. GREENE stated that it was intended, perhaps next year, but certainly not this, to pull down the tem porary committee-rooms of the House, to facilitate the progress of the new buildings. It was also intended to improve the vaults and eight committee-rooms in the cloisters, but these proceedings would involve no change in Mr. Barry's original plans. METROPOLITAN POLICE. Sir B. HALL, pursuant to notice, asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to state .the rea sons why the Bill for limiting the amount to be raised out of the rates for support of the metropolitan police was withdrawn; and whether it is intended to act up to the understanding conveyed by Mr. Phillips, and by the Police Commissioners, in letters dated December and January last, that the ratepayers shall not be called upon to pay more than they have hitherto done for the support of the police. Sir R. H. INGLIS was also anxious to ask the Right Hon. Baronet a question in reference to this subject, though it was in no way connected with the fiscal part of it. He wished to bear his testimony— The SPEAKER called the Hon. Member to order. Sir R. H. INGLIS apprehended that if he moved the adjournment of the House it would put him in a position to make his statement, but it would save time if the House would allow him to proceed without making that motion. Mr. E. DENISON rose to order. The Hon. Baronet had no right to make a statement which at present was irregular, because he could make such statement by moving the adjournment of the House. The Hon. Baronet ought to be restrained from making his statement until he had moved the adjournment of the House. The SPEAKER intimated that the Hon. Gentleman would not be in order unless he intended to conclude with a motion. Sir R. H. INGLIS did not intend to conclude with a motion. Seeing that the public of this country had ob tained so much advantage from the police force, he merely wished to take advantage of a precedent and — Mr. HUME rose to order.—(Laughter.) Unless the Hon. Baronet intended to conclude with a motion, he would not be in order ; he could, he submitted, bring forward his observations when the adjournment of the House until Monday was moved. Sir GEORGE GREY replied to the questions. The 10th George IV., c. 44, sec. 23, empowered the levying of a rate upon the ratepayers of the metropolis, for the purpose of maintaining the police not exceeding Bd. in the pound. 1 0 , 0001 . for merly applied to the Bow-street patrol out of the public funds was devoted towards paying the cost of the po llee. By a subsequent Act the rate was reduced to 6d. in the pound, and the Government were empowered to devote 60,000/. of the public money to the same pur pose. At present 219,0001. was levied on the metropo litan parishes, and 98,869/. (as we understood) paid out of the public funds. In consequence of representations, the Government introduced a Bill to empower the Commis sioners of Police to levy a less rate than sd. in the pound. The Bill had been withdrawn, but circumstances had recently occurred which rendered an increase of the force necessary, and the whole question at issue was, who was to pay the additional cost. He should be happy at all times to meet deputations on the subject, but the recent report which had appeared in the news papers with regard to a deputation that had waited upon him was altogether incorrect. He did not think there was much reason to complain, seeing the reduction that had taken place in the rate. He hoped to see the equalization of the rates which had taken place in Mid dlesex would extend to neighbouring counties. Mr. HUME hoped the subject would be referred to a Committee. Sir G. GREY had no ebjection to lay upon the table of the House a statement showing the increased duty of the police.—(Hear, hear.) Since the police had been established, no less than 200 miles length of streets had been added to the metropolis.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. H. INGLIS wished to know whether or not an unprecedented resignation had taken place of the per sons in the police force between the 10th of April and the 6th of May last. He was also desirous of knowing to what extent the Government intended to increas e the police, and whether they had entered into any arrange ment with the Electric Telegraph Company to furnish information to the Government. Sir G. GREY said that the increase intended to be made by the Government in the police would bo 500; that the resignations in the police force between the 10th of April and the 6th of May was not more than usual; and that the offer of the Electric Telegraph Company to give information to the Government was under con aideration. COUNTY COURTS. Sir J. DL CIeWORTH wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether or not the Government had decided on the payment of the officers of county courts by salaries instead of fees; and if so, at what time that arrangement was intended to be carried out. Sir GEORGE GREY said the subject had been under the consideration of the Government, and that an Order in Council was now in preparation and would be submitted to her Majesty at the next. Council upon the subject. ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. HERBERT wished to know what course the Government intended to pursue with respect to the Encumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill? Sir G. GREY said that he should propose that the House should sit on Tuesday next at twelve o'clock, in order to resume the debate on the Bill, and that then they should determine when they would next proceed with its consideration. LAW OF MARRIAGE. Mr. S. WORTLEY gave notice that on an early day he should move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law of marriage. DERBY ELECTION. Mr. STAFFORD, pursuant to notice, moved that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, to make out a new writ for the election of two burgesses to serve in this present Parliament for the borough of Derby, in the room of the Right Honourable Edward Stella and the Honourable Frederick Leveson Gower, whose election has been de termined to be void. There were now only two writs left, namely the Derby and the Leicester, but, after what had transpired with reference to the notoriously corrupt borough of Leicester, it was not his inten tion to move the issue of that writ during t the present session . All these cases of bribery might now be inquired into, and he was very glad to hear that the Bill of the Hon. Baronet opposite had been taken up by the Government. Sir J. HANMER said the opinion of the . House w as strongly expressed in favou r of his Bill when it was first under discu:sion ; but at that period, looking to many important questions Government had on hand, it was impossible to expect them to take it up. The Noble Lord, however , since he had got rid of many of those questions had taken up the Bill, and he was glad to say that there was now every prospect of this important subject being fully i n quired into. Mr. FREWEN objected to the issuing of i the writ. It was inconsistent to suspend the writ , and n a few days after to issue it. If a division took place, he should vote against issuing the writ. Mr. HUME suggested that the motion should be with drawn. If it was persevered in he was sure the House would not agree to it. The Honourable Memberfor Northampton had connected his name with the proc e ings at Leicester, which he said were disgraceful. He had nothing to do with Leicester whatever, but he re collected when the Tories in that borough had prac tised most disgraceful conduct; and if there was impro per conduct on the part of the Reformers it must have proceeded from the contamination of the practices of the old Tories. The Hon. Member might throw as much dirt at him as he pleased, but it would not stick, but re bound on himself. Mr. ANSTEY said the issuing of the writ would not impede inquiry any more than a Member occupying his seat during the inquiry into a contested return impeded the inquiry into the merits of the case. Mr. Alderman SIDNEY supported the motion. He was averse to corrupt practices, but a writ should not be suspended. Mr. O'CONNOR would say nothing of the purity of his constituents, but he could prove the case of money having been spent in bribing the electors of London. Thirteen non-electors had been on his committee. A party had sent them 651. for their services, but they re turned it. Captain HARRIS said that bribery was a misde meanour, and could be punished by law. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the House bad already decided five times that these writs should not be issued. He should therefore move as an amendment that the writ should not issue until the 15th of August next. Mr. STAFFORD said, that when he joined the name of the Member of Montrose with the Radicals of Leices ter, he did not mean it in a personal What sense; was he onlyro ad- verted to him in his political vie ws. now p posed to be done by the Noble Lord was what be had frequently asked for—that the parties should be put out of suspense, and that the House should declare whether they would issue the writ or not. He would not, there fore, oppose the amendment. Mr. HENLEY said it was understood that nothing would be done with regard to the issuing of these writs without previous notice. Lord J. RUSSELL said he should then give notice for Monday next. The motion was then withdratvn- SUGAR DUTE%S. On the order oF the day for going into Committee on the Sugar Duties being read, Mr. HUME presented a petition from Kingstown, Ja maica, signed by one thousand proprietors, of distress, and praying relief. complaining don from The Marquis of GRANBY presented a pets Liverpool, praying for inquiry into the condue: f the Colonial-office in withholding dispatches. Mr. BRIGHT called attention to a memorial trans mitted from the Chamber of Commerce of the 30th May, with regard to the sugar duties. He wished to know the views of the Government on the subject of the memorial. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he could not give a reply without referring to the memorial. Mr. ANSTEY wished to know whether it was the in tention of the Government to permit the West India colonies to import slave-grown sugar to make molasses for exportation, and also for the purpose of being refined for exportation? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had not given notice of the question, and he was not pre pared to give a reply. Mr. CARDWELL wished to know whether it was in tended that the House should meet to-morrow, if the Bill went through Committee to-night, in order to re ceive the report? Lord J. RUSSELL said, he could not say then, as it must depend on the state of the business. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to call attention to the dispatch of Lord Harris, of the 21st of February, 1848, and to ascertain whether the statements in that account were his real sentiments. The opinion of Lord Harris clearly established the ,cost of production to be such that the colonists were entitled to the greatest ex tent of relief this country could afford. In Trinidad, in the year 1847, the cost of production reached lls. lid. per cwt., so that the production really cost more than was obtained for the article in the market, leaving no thing for the interest of capital. Lord Harris went on to say that the quality of the sugar grown in the British islands was inferior to that produced by slave labour, and he accounted for this fact by the want of expe rienced labourers which the colonial planters sutler. He had a right to claim Lord Harris as one of the strongest evidences of the difference of the cost of pro duction in free labour and slave-grown countries, and that his testimony should be added to that of almost every other person who had given evidence on the question. He could extract from blue books the essence on the important point of the cost of production. The statements made in the course of the debate by the Hon. Member for Westbury, and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester, struck him as being more remarkable than others he had heard. The Hon. Gentleman estimated the cost of production in Cuba at 15s. 10d. per cwt., while the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Milner Gibson) fixed it at 10s. 4d. in Jamaica. If those statements were correct it was quite clear the House was losing time, and that so far from Jamaica wanting protection, ;it was Cuba that stood in need of it; but the truth was, that two more extraordinary blun ders never had been made. He could produce fifteen witnesses to prove that the cost of production did not exceed from 85. to 12s. per cwt. Indeed it was estab lished by irrefutable evidence that, while in slave-grown countries the cost of producing sugar varied from Bs. to 10s. in British possessions, the expense at the present moment varied from 16s. to 245., or the expense of the latter was to the former as two to one, while the quality and proportion were in the ratio of 98 to 75, or as 6 to 5. In determining the scale of duties those matters ought to be borne in mind. The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House re solved itself into Committee on the sugar-duties resolu tion, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair. The CHAIRMAN having read that portion of the first resolution determining the scale of duty to be charged on colonial Muscovado sugar. Mr. BAGSHAIVE withdrew and Mr. BAILLIE post poned amendments which they had intended proposing. Mr. BARKLY, pursuant to notice, moved that from and after the sth July, 1848, to the sth July, 1854, in clusiw, the duty on British plantation Muscovado sugar should be 14s. per cwt. ; and on foreign Muscovado, 18i. 6d. He explained the grounds on which he made this proposal. His object was to continue the present duties on sugar imported into this country for a period of six years. He did not propose to alter the rates on either foreign or colonial sugar. He merely submitted that the Bill of 1846 should remain in full force for six years, with this alteration, that he proposed to make a change in the standard sample, in comparison with which the duties at the Custom-house were levied on inferior descriptions of sugar. He further proposed that there should be only one class of white clayed sugar, instead of two classes, adopting the proposition of the Govern ment with respect to brown clayed sugar, and of the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Member for the University of Cambridge in reference to brown clayed. The Hon. Gentleman, after some further remarks which were barely audible in the gallery, read the following scale of duties, which he intended moving as amendments to the Government resolutions, and he proposed the portion of the scale directly referring to British plantation and , Colonial sugars : BRITISH PLANTATION. From and after July 5, 1848, to July 5, 1854, inclusive. • s. d. 1 1 0 O 18 8 O 14 0 O 5 3 Double Refined, &c. Single Refined .. Muscovado ... .. Molasses ... .. FOREIGN. From July 5, 1848, From to July 5,,1845. July 5, 1854, a. d. Double Refined, &c.... 1 7 9 Single Refined 1 4 8 Same rates Brown Clayed, or equal as British thereto ... 1 1 7 Plantation. Muscovado ... 0 18 6 Molasses ... 0 6 11 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, as it was the duty on Muscovado sugar which was under the consideration of the Committee, the first di vision must be taken on the question whether that duty should be 13s. or 14s. as proposed in the scheme of the Hon. Member, The Hon. Member proposed, in the first place, to raise the duty on foreign brown clayed sugar to 11. ls. 7d., instead of leaving it at 205., as proposed by the Government. He proposed to main tain that duty for six years, and to main British Mus covado at 14s. for the same period, instead of allowing it to fall 'gradually. But he did not confine his foreig n duty to brown clayed, for he ad ded in his schedue "or equal thereto.' The Honourable Member con tended that the process of classification would be rendered more simple, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) contended that nothing could be plainer than the mode adopted at present. The effect of the first part of the Hon. Member's resolution would be to raise the pricey of sugar ls. 7d. per cwt. to the consumer, and would give less protection to the producer than the Government proposition. Next the Ron. Member pro posed that his duty should continue for six years, and then drop all at once. Surely the effect on trade would be greater by such a proceeding than if the Committee adopted the plan of Government. The third objection was, that the duty on colonial sugars would be 14s. instead of 18s. as proposed by Government; and this, while from every island complaints were eoming that the high duty was one of the greatest evils of which the colonists com plained. (The Right Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from a Jamaica memorial in proof of his assertion.) They (the Government) proposed to give to the con sumer security for permanet classification and gradual reduction in price, while, as they conceived, the colonists would have greater virtual protection. This would in volve a loss to the revenue of 240,0001. in the first in stance, and the question was whether it would be ultimately made up by increased consumption. The beneficial aetion of the low price on the revenue would not be confined to the year in which the reduction took place, but would be permanent, inasmuch as the habit of consuming sugar would be promoted by the power of the people to consume. Taking the average consumption now at 351 b. per head, and giving credit for a reasonable increase consequent upon improved trade and additional employment, of which there was every prospect, he saw no reason why the total consumption should not amount to 305,000 or 310,000 tons in the next year; and should that be the case, and if the chief increase should be in colonial sugar, the loss to the revenue would be much less than had been calcu lated. Perhaps there would be no loss at all. At all events, at the end of the six years, he had every reason to believe the increased consumption would fully make up for the total reduction proposed. But an increase of duty, while it would inflict an injury on the consumer, would in the end occasion a loss to the producer. He did not think that a 14s. duty would give to the colonial grower equal advantages to those which he would derive from the Government plan; and believing that that plan would, without ultimate risk to the revenue, benefit both the consumer and the producer, he must oppose the pro position of the Hoe. Gentleman. Mr. GLADSTONE said, that he should give his vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Barkly) in favour of a duty of 14s. on colonial sugar. While he did so, however, he could not help stating to the House, that he did not conceive that any addition to protec tional duties would have the least effect in bettering the present deplorable condition of the colonies. While he confessed that he did not quarrel with the purposes for which the grant now proposed was to be given, namely, that of emigration, he was at the same time of opinion that the most effectual mode of benefiting those colo nies would be to give the holders of the property in them a grant, which w ould enable them to promote and further the purposes of agriculture. Should the money now proposed be given away in that way, he should not be averse to the plan proposed by the Government, but he was certain that if no relief was given to these colo nies, other than ,that which was proposed by the pre sent measure, those colonies would be reduced to the ut most ruin. It was not a protectional duty that would rescue those colonies from the deplorable statehat ihe n which they were were at present. — (Hea r, hear.) W ceived to be the most important p art of the question, was the duty on Muscovado suga r of 145., asproposed by his Hon. Friend. He conceived that the West Indies were entitled to that protection which his Hon. Friend demanded for them, and while the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that the reason why the Government had proposed the present course of a yearly and gradual reduction of the duty on sugar, the produce of these colonies, was that these colonies should be prepared to withstand the competition which would ensue after the expiring of this four years sliding-scale, so far from agreeing with him, he thought that the adoption of such a system would have the worst possible effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the present measure would set the question of sugar at rest; but while the fact was, that no later than yes terday thirty thousand tons of foreign sugar were ad mitted, no doubt to the exclusion of their own colonial sugar, it was not, therefore, likely that any measure such as the present would set the question at rest. He did not conceive it necessary to go at any length into what was said by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer as to the permanency of the duty proposed for six years by his Hon. Friend. He con ceived that duty would be far preferable to that graduated scale proposed by the Government, as it would give par ties an inducement to invest their capital in West Indian property, certain as they must be that such investment would be safe. In regard to the financial portion of the question, it would be most disastrous to the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had himself admitted that, under the scale of duties pro posed, there would be a lost to the revenue during the ' hoe :year these duties came into operation, of no less than 24,000/., while in the third year of their operation, there would be a loss to the revenue of 70,000/. It was said that the reason for this reduction was for the pur pose of benefiting the consumer, but be did not think that a reduction of the extent specified in the resolu tions, while it imposed such a great loss to the amount of the revenue, would be of the least benefit to the pro ducer or to the consumer of sugar. Besides, he thought that nothing was more dangerous, so far as the revenue was concerned, than to introduce any measure which should affect it at a remote period.—(Hear, hear.) No one could tell what would be the circumstances of those colonies a few years hence, and therefore, instead of a measure such as the Government had proposed he would rather accede to the permanent one as contained in the amendment of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Barkly). But whatever might be the increased consumption, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no right to take credit for it again, seeing that the Noble Lord (J. Russell) had already included it in his estimate of the general increase under the head of Customs, when he made his financial statement, and calculated that the revenue from the Customswould be nineteen millions and three-quarters.—(ear hear.) He must, howevet, doubt whether these anticipations of increased consump tion were well founded. They had yesterday had laid upon the table of the House the accounts containing the tables showing the consumption for the first five months of the year, and comparing those aceounts with the tables for the first five months of 1847, he found there was a great falling off in the article of sugar. The con sumption in the first five months of 1847 was 2,473,000 cwt., while, in 1848, it was reduced to 2,455,000 cwt. The last of these five months was the one which most unequivocally proved this real falling off in the con sumption, because the duties were more equalised. Com paring it with the corresponding month of 1847 the de crease amounted to 60,000 cwt. The Right Honourable Gentleman had taken the year 1846 as the basis of his calculation; but he must protest against his doing so. 1846 was a year of unusual energy and enterprise, and expansion of trade. Could any one, looking at the actual state of things in'lB4B, expect equal results? He felt it the more necessary to advert to this topic, because the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken the opportunity of making a new financial statement, of sending forth a word which had been music in the ears of the merchants of this country. He told them that the deficiency in the revenue this year would be only half a million, instead of two millions, as had been anticipated. He must, however, protest against the system of voting away large sums on mere vague assurances like these, and un til it was clearly shown in what way the deficit was to be supplied.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle man spoke of a revival of trade as certain. He confessed he saw no indications of it, although he admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman possessed better sources of information than he did. With respect to the estimated improvement of the revenue, he was prepared to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer credit for the accounts set down for reduction's in the Navy and Ordnance, and to the extent of a million of that estimated improvement, but as to 500,000/. of that estimate, he said it was a prac tical fallacy to send forth a statement which included that sum as increased revenue. It was, in fact, merely taking an amount which would have gone to the dimi nution of the estimates next year to add to the income of this year. He would therefore deduct that half mil lion from the estimate of the Right Honourable Baronet. Then there was 300,0001., which it was admitted the Ministerial measure would cost the revenue next year, and in addition that most anomalous item—which he hoped soon to miss from the estimates—" Navy Ex cess." must be taken into account. That was 300,0001. more. These three items, added to the admitted defici ency of half a million, according to the new statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, made a total deficiency for the year of not less than 1,600,6001.—(Hear.) But a single deficit was a matter of small consequence com pared with its probable result. There was a tendency in one deficit to lead to another, and he had also observed that there was a reluctance on the part of the House to provide means for meeting each deficit as it arose. Last year, in the midst of peace, they had been compelled to have recourse to a loan. This year, instead of making any arrangements to pay off, or otherwise provide for that loan, they had another large defici ency, and so far as he could see from the indications in the commercial world, a similar deficiency might be expected next year.—(Hear, hear.) He would give the House of Commons the credit of saying that he believed that when it refused to grant the increase of the income tax, it was not because it was unwilling to make pro vision for the expenditure of the country, but, as had been truly, though delicately said by the Right Hon- Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Baring), because the House had not confidence in the estimates of the Government, and in their financial policy.—(Heals) Last year was an extraordinary year, and had, no doubt, demanded extraordinary efforts; but that was an addi tional reason for their drawing a broad line between an extraordinary and an ordinary year. They ought in such a year as this, which might financially be called an . ordinary year, to take care to equalise the income and the expenditure. Unless this was done, he feared that the deficit of this year would be fol lowed by another next year. There was no reason, in his opinion, for expecting that the trade and commerce of the country would materially improve. Taking the exports of British manufactures for the years 1846, 1847, and 1848, he found a decided falling off in the latter year. There were roe signs of revival in the first five months of this year,lllEd at all events we should be pre• pared to look the question fairly in the face.—(Hear, hear.) They were bound to do this, especially when they saw that next year the Chancellor of the Exche quer would probably have to state that there was a still further decline, and a still further deficiency, to be met in 1849. If they did not meet the exigency of the case at once the Right Hon. Gentleman would have a plau sible ground for calling upon the House to tolerate another deficiency. He felt strongly that neither the Government nor the House were doing their duty to the country if they did not come to an immediate determi nation to take measures for equalising the income and e xpenditure.—(Hear, hear.) He must protest in the strongest manner against voting away large sums of money in the manner which this plan confessedly did in the first year. He consi dered it a most dangerous and dishonest policy, and the House ought not to be called upon to vote that money until the Government came-forward and told them that they were prepared to submit to the House a plan, and to enforce that plan with all the power at their disposal, for reducing the expenditure of the country, and thus bringing our outlay within its income.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Barkly), he supported it on the broad ground, that it was much better to make a reduction of 4s. at once, than to spread it over four years. It would be more immediately felt, and tend to give a stimulus to consumption, than the contrary plan, which he considered opposed to the policy of the soundest financiers. He protested against the plan of the Government, not because he thought th e i ncrease of consumption which it anticipated was impossible, but because if it did come, it had already been taken credit for by the Noble Lord, and could not therefore be counted twice. He proposed also, in the name of the colonies, who had a right to a larger measure of relief than that proposed by the Government, which ought to go further than it had done, and he should feel it to be his duty, in all ulterior stages of the measure, to make every effort to secure justice to the colonists.—(Hear.) Mr. LABOUCHERE said he did not complain that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have directed the attention of the House to the financial position of the Government. It was natural that he should have done so, after the recent statement of his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and also re membering the great attention which the Right Hon. Gentleman had paid to that subject. But what he did complain of 'was the manner in which the Right Eton. Gentleman had spoken of the measure of the Ministry, by characterising it as dishonest. Mr. GLADSTONE—AIIow me to withdraw that word. It was merely used in the heat of debate, and without any intention of imputing personal dishonesty. What I meant was, that it was a dangerous and delusive policy to be anticipating the revenue of future years to meet the expenditure of this. Mr. LABOUCHERE was sure that the word was not used in a personally offensive sense ; but he must ex press his surprise that the Right Honourable Gentle man should speak thus of this measure, having been one of a Government that introduced a measure on the tim ber duties of precisely the same nature. He thought the Right Honourable Gentleman must have a very short memory indeed to forget that fact.—(Hear, hear.) There was another statement that he had heard with great surprise, namely, that this was an ordinary year. Why, if this had not been a most extraordinary year, we should by this time have been in the very spring tide of prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) With reference to the gloomy views of the Right Honourable Gentleman as to the prospects of trade and commerce, he could not concur in them. While the European trade had been almost entirely closed, the trade dependent on our own internal demands had striven with a vigour which was perhaps never surpassed, and which proved conclusively that our resources were undimished, and only waited for more favourable opportunities of exhibiting their full force. The Right Hon. Gentle man had referred to the returns just laid on the table as to the consumption of the first five months of the year, and had shown a falling off in one article, sugar. But if the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken other artic les, which quite as conclusively tested the consuming powers ?f the country as sugar, he would have found an increase instead of a decrease. For instance, tea. In the month of June k 1847, the importation of tea was 339,000 pounds. In June, 1848, it was 419,000 pounds. In the coffee trade there had been a slight falling off; but, looking at the whole of the tables, they showed in a most satisfac tory manner that this country had maintained its ground in the midst of a crisis which had ruined other countries. —(lean) He would not on that occasion interrupt the dabate on the sugar duties, and which he hoped was now drawing tea close, by following the Right Hon. Gentleman in his financial criticism. Other opportuni ties would occur for discussing that question. With re gard to the amendment of the Hon. Member for Leo minster, he must say that he preferred the measure of the Government to that amendment. The plan of the Government reconciled the interests of two great parties in this matter—the West India planters and the con- THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 8, 1848. sumers of the country. Besides, a gradually dropping scale was preferable to a sudden and abrupt reduction, as proposed by the lion. Member. It would cause less embarrassment to trade, and enable all parties gradually to prepare for the new state of things. No doubt a dropping scale had its disadvantages, but upon the whole it best met the difficulties of the case. With re- spect to its effect upon the revenue, he hoped that by spreading the reduction over a period of years, the in crease of consumption would be such as to make up for any present loss. Those who had locked into Oats re turns were aware how sensitive sugar was to any variation of price. The Noble Lord (George Ben tinck) had done great service by preparing a series of tables showing the variations for 25 years, and which strkingly showed this fact. But there was another inference to be drawn from those tables, that was, there was a tendency to increased consumption, whatever the price might be. He considered that the present plan of the Government would greatly tend to the interest of the West India planter, to the consumer and to the revenue of this country—([lear, hear)—and he considered that though it may not go so far as many would wish, yet that it was founded on just principles, and however it may be opposed, would in time to come be approved of by many who are now strongly antago nistic to it. Nor could he agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) who urged that it Would ma terially affect the finances of the country this year, be cause he was fully convinced that the extensive consump tion next year would make up for any deficiency that may be apprehended by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He should say that he certainly regretted that foreign sugar had been brought into the English market, in competi tion to colonial sugar ; but he should say that was not the fault of the Government, but of the Honourable Mem- ber for Stafford, the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), who by their inclination to express their opinions have pro tracted this discussion: therefore, to them, and them only, is the fault attributable. Ho considered that they would have opportunities on other occasions to express their opinions; and, in addition to that, that their re proaches on the Government were most unjustifiable. When the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) charged the Government with inconsistency, did he mean that the people of this country should be subject to morn taxation to relieve the distress of the West India planters? Such a course he would look upon as a most unjust and inconsistent one; though, at the same time, he should say that Government wished to do as much ser vice as was consistent with justice and equity, but should at the same time respect the interests of other classes, and he should add, that he considered that if Govern ment were to comply with the wishes of those in favour of the amendment, that they would totally clog the ener gies of the West Indian planters.—(Hear.) Mr. CAYLEY said that he considered that the ob jection raised was against reducing the wages of West India labourers. New he should say what he had at all times thought, even at the time that he voted for the emancipation of the negroes of the West Indian colonies, that the agriculture of this country contributed most to the revenue of the country, and strange to say, that at the time that free-trade measures were discussed, this proposition, which is now admitted by the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), and others of his party, was then strongly opposed, yet the consummation of the policy of the Act of 1846 will take place in another year, which, together with the removal of duty from copper ore and the navigation-laws, must severely injure the revenue of this country, and he would ask how was this falling off in the revenue to be made up? for his part he was at a loss to knoh.—(Hear.) Upon the question be fore the House, he should support the proposition of the Hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Barkly) because, though the Government had listened to the complaint of the Committee elected to inquire into the condition of our West Indian colonies, yet they opposed their re presentations, even though that Committee had been packed by themselves, and it should also be recollected that when the Act of Emancipation was passed that it was not intended that slave-grown sugar should be brought into the English market in competition with free-labour sugar, yet he regretted to say that such was the case, and thus will there be a serious loss in the revenue of this country, through means of free trade. It should be at the same time understood that he was not at present complaining of that measure, because be thought it right to give it a fair trial. He would say with Mr. Burke, that wherever there was abuse there ought to be clamour; for it was better to be waked by the fire-bell than to be consumed in the flames. So, wherever there was failure, there ought to be reaction. They owed good faith to the West Indian colonies, and because he did not wish this great country to exact the pound of flesh in the spirit of Shylock, because he was fond of freedom, and above all, because, being a Chris tian, he admired the magnificent Chi istiaa principle of doing to others as he wished they should do to him, he felt bound to give his support to the amendment of the Hon. Member for Leominster. Mr. CARDWELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, before he had sat down after addressing the House, seemed to have re covered from the cloud of dissatisfaction which he had manifested at the commencement of his speech, and had arrived at that equable and general state of mind which was his wont. He (Mr. Cardwell) thought the cloud had originated in the painful analysis of the financial state of the country, which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), and the recovery had arisen from the answer the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. La bouchere) had been enabled to give on two points, viz., that in relation to the amount of the delivery of sugars ad the lower rate of duty, and the condition of the revenue as bearing upon the question of the sugar duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the mistake which had arisen was not the fault of Government, for that they had taken care to apprise the House of the consequences which must ensue from delay. Now, what were the circumstances? On the 30th May the Govern• meat had plainly told the House and the country that no change would be made in the Act of 1846, either as to the amount of the duties or in their duration; and on the following day the mail went out to the West Indies, co nveying that intelligence. The fault was attributed by the Right Hon. Gentleman to the Hon. Member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington); but let it not be forgotten that the attention of the Government had been called to the position in which the question would be placed on the very first night upon which the House had been in vited to discuss the Government proposition. And could any man, out of the House, believe it possible that between the 16th June and the sth July the principle of the proposition of the Government —that fairly raised by the Hon. Member for Droitwich—the amendment of the Hon. Member for Manchester, and all the other amendments announced to be moved in Committee—could be dis cussed and disposed of in that short interval ?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cardwell) denied that the analysis of the financial condition of the country which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) was devoid of fairness as had been alleged. His Right Hon. Friend had contrasted the present year with the year of the Irish famine and of the 8,000,0001. loan, and he spoke of this as an ordinary year as compared with those years. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) had him self said that the present was a year in which the country had shown great buoyancy—in which articles of con sumption had kept up wonderfully, and which presented remarkable evidence of the irrepressible energies of this nation. If that were so, how could the Right Hon. Gentleman complain that it had been argued that the present must be taken as an ordinary year ? The Right Hon. Gentleman had himself stated that but for the ex traordinary events which had taken place on the continent of Europe, this country would now have been in the spring-tide of prosperity, and in an extraordinary state of advance. But on the 18th February a deficiency of 2,000,0001. had been predicted, though the events in France did not happen until the 24th of that month. The question of the timber duties bore no parallel to the question now under consideration—they were not parallel cases because his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Glad stone) had contended justly that the Government had no right to come down to the House, having no resources, but standing upon an empty treasury chest, and take credit for a reduction in favour of the consumer, when they knew that in case of a deficiency in the revenue the consumer was the person upon whom the burden of tax ation to supply that deficiency must be placed. He therefore repeated that the descending scale proposed by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) in the duties in favour of Canadian timber had no parallel with the present question. In February, the Government were determined to maintain the law of 1846—a law which, he contended, was more favourable to the revenue than the change in it now proposed by her Majesty's Mi nisters, and from which they might have calculated upon a larger amount to be derived from the sugar duties than would be the case under the proposed change, and yet with the state of the continent affecting the produc tive industry of the country, the Government came down and took comfort in an anticipated increase of revenue from the change. For this there was no basis beyond the hopeful anticipations of the Right Hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, who supposed that because the stocks were large, there would be an increased con sumption. But were the stocks large ? On the con trary, the return made up to the Ist of June last showed that in all the principal ports of the king dom the stocks were smaller than they were at the same period last year ; and with all this there was no tendency in the scheme of the Government to lower the price of the commodity to the consumer. He (Mr- Cardwell) contended that the stocks were not larger, as had been assumed—that the Board of Trade returns, published that morning, established that fact—and that it was, therefore, erroneous to suppose there would be ' any reduction of prices to the consumer. But it had been said that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) had not been clear in the announcement of his remedy for the existing state of things in relation to the West India colonies. In the Select Committee it had been agreed that, for the permanent benefit of the colonies, protection was not necessary ; and the Hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Wilson) had proposed resolution to the effect that the remedy ought to be applied di rectly to the planters themselves, in some other shape than in that of protective duties.—(Hear, hear.) Not withstanding this, the plan of the Government offered the planter no other remedy but protection. His Right Honourable Friend had pointed to other remedies, but their application was matter of great difficulty, owing to the complication of interest s. They involved the state of West India property, the state of the negro o r coloured population, and they involved besides the whole question of immigration from the coast of Africa, as well as that of loans or grant s of public money for the improvement of estates; and, lastly, they involved the whole question of the s lave-trade.. It was impos s ible f o r his Right Hon. Friend to bring forward a scheme with out dealing with all these various points, and being out of office it would have been rash temerity on the part of his Right Hon. Friend to have undertaken that duty. With respect to the proposition brought forward by the Hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Barkly), it did not differ in its operation for the first year from the plan brought forward by her Majesty's Government, but it would not affect the public ievenue at a time when the revenue could not afford to be affected, and, further, it was not open to the objection of a continual recurrence to a descending scale. Before he sat down ho could not avoid referring to ene piece of evidence adduced before the Slave-trade Committee now sitting, by Mr. Moore, the Chairman of the Liverpool Brazilian Association. He (Mr. Cardwell) had asked Mr. Moore this question—" Can you tell the Committee whether the Brazilian merchants in this country ex pected so full a measure of free trade in sugar as was afforded by the Act of 1846?" The answer was, " I should say certainly not." "Do you know whether their general opinion is that the measure of 1846 extended beyond the justice of the case? Answer —At the time the measure was brought forward I was chairman of the Liverpool Brazilian Association, and I can state we never sought for equality with the colonies; on the contrary, we always looked for some differential duties. I frequently came to London on the subject, and we said that if Brazilian sugar was at 175., and West India sugar at 255., there ought to be a differential duty of Bs." Ile (Mr. Cardwell) had pressed the examination a step further and had asked the witness, " In your opi nion was there an injustice done the West India colo nies?" and the answer was, "Yes, I think so." Such was the evidence adduced on the part of the merchants engaged in the cultivation and import of Brazilian sugars; and the other day, in attending with a deputation upon the Government, he (Mr. Cardwell) had urged the hard ship to which the colonies had been exposed. Believing that the plan proposed by the Hon. Member for Leomin ster (Mr. Barkly) would afford the best means of giving effect to those sentiments, he (Mr. Cardwell) should give it his best support.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WILSON said the question before the Com mittee was whether it should adopt the Government proposition of 13-. per cwt. on colonial sugar, or the 14s. per cwt. as moved by the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. Barkly); but, in dealing with that question, it was necessary to take the whole scale of duties as proposed on the one side and the other into consideration. The plan of the Honourable Member would operate bene ficially for the colony (Demerara) in which he was most interested, and which produced the white clayed or higher class sugars, but would sacrifice the sugars pro duced in the other West India colonies, and the effect would be to raise the price for the next year of all sugars but is. per cwt. more than would be the case if the Government proposition received the sanction in preference of the Legislature. Taking into consi deration the consumers' interest on the one hand, and the state and condition of the revenue on the other, he was convinced the Government plan has now proposed would effect a great saving, and operate most beneficially for the country at large. It had been said that by the adoption of the Govern ment plan the loss to the revenue would be 240,0001. in the first year, 480,000/. in the second year, and 960,000/. for the four remaining years. But what would be the ef fect of the plan of the Hon. Member for Leominster? Why, in the first year it would add to the consumer a cost of 435,000/.; in the second year the additional charge to the consumer would be 905,0001.; and in the third year, while there would be a loss to the revenue of 720,000/., there would be an in creased cost to the consumer to the extent of 1,350,0001.; and so on, until, at the end of the six years, there would be an addition of 2,400,0001. more upon the consumer than would be the result of the adop tion of the Government plan. In what position, then, at the expiration of that time, would the West India colonies be placed, when, without protection, there was no increase of consumption? The advantage of a gra dually decreasing duty was, that it produced no very marked effect at any particular time, especially if the alterations were known beforehand; and on this ground the plan of Government was infinitely preferable to that embodied in the amendment. The mode in which re lief was proposed to be given to the planters, namely, by stimulating the consumption, was the most unobjec tionable that could be devised. For years before the alteration in 1845, the consumption of sugar had been almost stationary; in 1830 it was 202,000 tons • in 1843, 203,000; and in no one year of that period had it ex ceeded 206,000 tons. But after the alterations in 1845 the consumption rose at once to 244,000 tons; in 1846, to 261,000; and in 1847 (in consequence of the further reductions of duty in the preceding year), to 290,000 tons. By the amendment proposed the duties would be kept stationary for six years, and the natural consequence would be, to cause the consumption again to become stationary; and how, then, could any increase of revenue be expected? The Government plan, on the other hand, by largely stimulating the consumption, would augment the revenue to such an extent as would pro pably compensate for the reduction of duty. The Honourable Member for Liverpool had dwelt much on the apparent falling off of 3,000 tons in the consumption of sugar is May last, as compared with May, 1847; but had he forgotten that, after the West India Committee had been sitting for months, and reductions of duty were recommended, refiners and dealers would naturally allow their stocks to go low, and thus cause the apparent falling-off alluded to ? He knew,by communications with the refiners themselves, that they had acted in this way, having their eyes fixed on the anticipated reduction of the sth inst.; and he had no doubt the quantity entered in the present month would more than compensate for the past decline. The amount of sugar to be received from the colonies this year was fairly estimated at 230,000 tons ; the imports from the Mauritius and the East Indies might be expected to fall off from 5,000 to 10,000 tons ; the whole supply would probably equal 345,000 tons, being only 45,000 tons less than the supply of last year. The Hon. Member for Liverpool said that stocks were lower this year than last; but this was owing to the fact that the shipments were unusually late ; both in Brasil and Cuba there were large stocks yet unshipped, and whether they came direct to this country or to the continental ports, they would find their way here if they were needed. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite (Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Card well) had dwelt too strongly on the question of revenue though the accounts of the preceding day certainly showed a deficit on the year of 2,400,000/.; but of this no less a sum than 2,200,000/. was in respect of the six months ending in January last as compared with the prosperous half-year ending in January, 1847.—(Hear, hear.) 4 Comparing the last six months with the corre sponding six months of 1847—a much fairer way of judg ing of our present position—it would be seen that, not withstanding the extraordinary curtailment which our commerce had suffered, and notwithstanding the dis turbed condition of the continent, the deficit was only 209,0001. The first six months of 1847 were a period of comparative prosperity; and, if the comparison was confined to the last quarter and the corresponding quarter of 1847, the amount of deficiency bills amounted only to 35,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The proposition of the Hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Barkly), while raising the price of all sugar, was also objectionable on the ground of its giving an unfair advantage to certain colonies, inasmuch as it only imposed a duty of 14s. on colonial Muscovados and white-clayed sugars, and would thereby inflict a hardship on the refiners of this country, who paid a duty of 14s. for the raw material which they wrought up. Mr. BA RKLY disclaimed any interested motive in making the distinction alluded to; and Mr. WILSON said he had not meant to impute any such motive. Sir G. CLERK said he should support the amend ment. The most important part of the plan of the Hon. Member for Leominster was the omission of the dis tinctive duty on white-clayed sugar. In 1847 only 30,000 cwt. had paid the high duty of white-clayed, of which 12,000 was foreign and 16,000 was East India sugar. This distinction then afforded no benefit to the West Indian colonies. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that he would lose 240,000/. at first, if the plan of the Government were adopted, but he expected that it would be made up to that amount by the increased consumption of sugar. He did net think that expectation was likely to be realised, because in the five months ending the sth of June last, the consumption of sugar had fallen off 1,000 toes as compared with the quantity consumed in the corresponding five months of 1847. And this falling off had taken place, although the average price for the 1 as 3 ens H e 1 ey five months of the year 1848 was onl y 245., whilst the months thsofB there was 47 w any tendency to increase the consumptio n of the su g ars.— ( He ar.) It did averagenot thinkpr ice this of the sho fivee showed might be said that this arose from the distressed state of the country in the present year. If that were the cause there ought to be a falling off in the consumption of r e moreover d e t the o a f dm th i e ss ß io o n ar o d f o t f h e T r ß a i d g e h tt that n the . G e n oo tl u e other articles. But that was not so, and they had m th n e r n m t r a y n was in a very buoyant state. Mr. lIAWES—The sugar trade was in an unsettled state. Sir G. CLERK—And that rather gave an induce ment to the loreign growers to take their sugars out of bond, and bring them into the market. The principal difference between the plan of the Government and that of his Hon. Friend was, that his Hon. Friend proposed to retain the differential duty at the same amount for six years. Hon. Gentlemen opposite said that the dropping scale would afford time to the West India planters to prepare for the competition with the foreign growers. That argument surprised him as coming from the authors of the Act of 1846. The dropping scale had this disadvantage, that it produced irregularity in the trade, because merchants always re gulated their transactions according to the gradual fall. In this respect he thought the plan of the Hon. Gentle man was superior to that of the Government. But what appeared to him to be the great advantage of the plan of the Hon. Gentleman was, that it would not diminish the revenue. Giving the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer credit for the improved state of the finances, there would be still, according to his state ment, a deficiency of 1,500,0001., and in such circum stances he did not think it would be wise to give up 240,0001. He admitted, whenever the state of the reve nue could afford it, that no tax could be reduced with so much advantage to the great mass of the people as the tax on sugar, but until the state of the revenue had greatly improved they should not do anything that would still further diminish it. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that he would get 350,0001. beyond what he expected from the malt duty. It should be recollected, however, that the supe rior quality of last year's malt would occasion less sugar to be used in brewing. There were 1,000 or 1,200 tons of sugar used last year in brewing, which would not be used. this year in consequence of the superior saccharine quality of last year's barley, so that even if there were a slight increase in the con sumption of sugar, it would be more than counter balanced by the falling off of the sugar used in brewing. He was also of opinion that the duties received on foreign sugar would be less this year than they were last year, for he found that from 11,000 to 12,000 tons less had been introduced from the Ist of January, 1848, to the sth of June, than had been introduced in the corre sponding months of 1847. Then the Right Hon. Gen tlemen said that he expected to save 300,0001. ou the army, navy, and ordnance estimates, without at all diminishing the efficiency of those services. At the best he believed that a large proportion of this alleged re duction would be merely a postponement of accounts until next year, but how stood the actual fact? Why, thus: that in the past financial year the Government had expended on the naval service 400,0001. beyond the vote which they had obtained under this head, which 400,0001. they must consequently set against the 300,0001., lefty. ing a deficit of 100,0001. in this item instead of a surplus of 300,000/. Nothing could be more mischievous than the mystification of expenditure and income accounts which the Government was too much in the habit of at- ,empting. He should give his cordial support to the amendment. Mr. C. BRUCE said that, if in the present state of our revenues, the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire could show how the finances were not to be severely injured by the reduction of the sugar duties — the weight of which, be it observed, no individual con sumer felt—he would richly merit another 80,0001. at the bands of the public. This was a question upon which depended the ruin or rescue from ruin of our West India colonists; and still more, upon which de pended the abo ition . or the aggravated continuance of the slave trade.—(hear, bear.) The whole mischief had arisen from the de moralising and se lfisli principle of free trade as embodied in the hackneyed maxim of " Buy in the cheapest and sell in the dearest market." He had no wish to see any vote of the House on this question have the effect of producing v. change in the Government of the country at this time. He considered that any such change would be a national misfortune; for, while he greatly disapproved of the conduct of some of the depart ments of that Government—he would not specify which —he regarded with entire satisfaction the energy and ability which had characterised the administration of public affairs by other departments; and he would spo on), as peculiarly able able and energetic the conduct of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home De __ partmeixt.—(Hear, hear.) Whilst the Government was making concessions to the West Indies, they ought to take care to make them effectual, and not to offer such as were inadequate to the purpose. They ought, in order to make the protection effectual, to grant the amount demanded by the West Indians; otherwise they sacrificed their principles of free trade, and sacrificed their money without doing the good which they intended to effect. He should give his vote for the amendment of his Hon. Friend. Mr. BAILLIE said that a duty put on an article of consumption did not always impose a fresh burden on the people who consumed the article so treated. Ile felt this difficulty with respect to the amendment of his Hon. Friend, that if he toted for it he could not bring forward the amendment of which he had given notice. He could not anticipate what the feelings of the Ame ricans would be when they read the speech of the Right _ _ Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose on;; consolation seemed to be in the hope that a revolt amongst the slaves in Cuba and in the southern states of the union would be the most probable remedy for the evils of slavery.—(Cries of " Divide.") The Right Hon. Baronet had not laid down any course which he would pursue with respect to the colonies, nor could any one say whether he was prepared to abandon them or not.—(Divide, divide.) Mr. GODSON said that the choice which it was for the Committee to make at present, was between the plan of the Government and the proposal of the Hon. Member for Leominster. In his opinion the plan of the Government was preferable. There were eight plans be fore the House, of which that proposed by the Hon. Member for Montrose appeared to him to be the best cal culated to meet the case. It was not fair to the West Indian planters to treat the question so entirely as one of revenue. The only way to increase consumption was by lowering the duty; and when it was considered that the war duties were levied on sugars up to so late a pe riod as 1845, there could be no difficulty in tracing the causes of the distress that had existed amongst the planters, for they got very little for their sugars beyond the duty. The Government had promised the planters a loan or a gift of 500,0001., but he would much rather they paid the 1,300,000/. which was due to the colonists, in which case they could promote immigration them selves. For the reasons he had stated, bur, merely as a choice of evils, he felt bound to support the proposition of the Government. Mr. MOW AT T, who was interrupted by loud cries of " Question," " divide," expressed his regret that Go• vernment had departed •from the principle they had themselves laid down in 1846. They heard great com plaints of the interruption of public business arising from lengthened debates—(Hear, hear)—but he thought that the present proposition, if acceded to, would re open the free trade question, and pave the way for endless discussion.—(Hear, hear.) He had no faith in it as a measure of relief to the planters, neither did he approve of the amendment of the Hon. Member for Leo minster. Under these circumstances, he had made up his mind to take no part in the division one way or the other.—(Laughter.) Lord sIEORGE BENTINCK moved the adjournment of the debate. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the House had lately appointed a Committee to consider upon the best means of expediting the public business.—(Hear, and laughter.) He could have no hope of the recommendations of that Committee proving effectual, unless the House, having entered upon a discussion, made a determination to go at once to a conclusion. They were then sitting on Friday night, the 7th July, in continuance of a debate which had begun on the 16th June.—(Hear, hear.) lie could not see why the House should refuse to continue that discussion on the present occasion. It had been discussed in the early part of the evening, when they had not nearly so full an attendance, with great ability, by the Right Hon. Member for Oxford University, the Hon. Member for Liverpool, the Right Hon. Member for Dover, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Presi dent of the Board of Trade, and the Hon. Member for Westbury, and the arguments had, in his opinion, been nearly exhausted by those Gentlemen. They had also heard the views of Gentlemen interested in the West Indies. The Noble Lord who for so many months had attended the West India Committee was fully entitled to be heard, and he had no doubt the House would hear the Noble Lord, no matter what might be the time of night, —(Hear.) He really could not consent to the adjourn ment of the debate until the House had testified its opi nion by a division. Mr. GOULBURN was understood to suggest the propriety of acceding to the wishes of the Noble Lord. The Committee divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment „. SO Against ... 211 Majority ... ss• —l3l On our return to the gallery, Lord J. RUSSELL was consenting to the adjourn ment of the debate until Monday, expressing a hope that the House would then go into Committee of Supply. Mr. HENLEY was glad the debate was adjourned, for it was probable the Noble Lord who moved the adjourn ment would have spoken two or three hours.—(Groans and laughter.) Colonel SIBTHORP said if they were to take votes on account to-night they might overdraw. He im mensely objected to go on with such votes at such an hour. It was a very dangerous proceeding. For his part he did not know what there was iu the Exchequer. There was the Court of Rome Bill upon the paper. Were they going to take that? He wished they would say what they were going to do. Mr. S. CRAWFORD should feel it his duty to object to go into Committee of Supply at that hour. Lord J. RUSSELL asked was it really intended to delay the business of the country in this way? Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he had a notice of motion on the paper to be brought on on going into Committee of Supply, and he objected to proceed at that hour. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday on what day he would go into a Committee of Supply again, and then the Hon. Member could bring forward his motion. BIr.STUART thought theobjection to go into Supply was most unreasonable and ant air, but not near so unfair and unreasonable as the conduct of the Government in trying to prevent the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn from addressing the House.—(Groans, and cries of "Oh.") Lord J. RUSSELL denied that he had endeavoured to prevent the Noble Lord from speaking. His only wish was to prevent the repeated adjournment of these debates. Members often rose to speak at one or two in the morning, and the Noble Lord need not have feared obtaining the attention of the House. Mr. STUART essayed to speak again ; but his voice was drowned amid groans and cries of " Oh." The CHAIRMAN then put the question that he do report progress, and ask leave to sit again, which was agreed to; and he then left the chair. SUPPLY. The House having resumed, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the Speaker do leave the Chair, in order to go into Committee of Supply, whereupon Captain BOLDERO said the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had stated the other night that certain reduc• Lions might be made in the ordnance and other estimates. He wished to have a detailed account of those proposed reductions, showing their character, amount, and the reasons for the reduction. He should also like to know when the navy, army, and ordnance estimates were to be brought forward, and the order in which they would be submitted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the votes of the present session had been taken on ac count. Until the Committee on the army, navy, and ordnance estimates had made their report, the votes would continue to be taken in the same way. Captain BOLDER() said his question had not been answered, whereupon Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the estimates were brought forward he would state the amount of the reductions to be made, and, if necessary, print the par ticulars. As to the " reasons" for these reductions, it was more usual for the Minister to state them than for the Government to put them on paper. The SPEAKER then put the question, when Mr. KEOGH objected to going on, in consequence of having a motion on the paper. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday when the Hon. Member would have an opportunity of bringing forward his motion. Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to call attention to the fact that the Committee up stairs would not be able to report upon the army and ordnance estimates this year. Lord J. RUSSELL said he would consider that point. The House then went into Committee of Supply, when Sir R. PEEL moved a vote of 20,0001, on account of the British Museum. After an observation from Mr. WYLD, the vote was agreed to. Mr. WARD then moved a vote of 400,0001. on ac count of the navy.—Agreed to. Mr. PARKER moved a vote of 30,000?. on account of public buildings. Mr. OSBORNE asked if any part of this vote would be applicable to the Houses of Parliament or Bucking ham Palace ? Mr. PARKER was understood to reply in the nega tive,—Vote agreed to. '1 he next vote was 10,0004 on account of the wcrks at Buckingham Palace. Mr. OSBORNE objected to take that vote. Lord MORPETH said the wages of the labourers de dended on its passing. 2Alr. OSBORNE said he should divide.—(Grcans.) Dr. BOWRING hoped the Hon. Member would not divide. Mr. OSBORNE said if the Hoo. Doctor—(Load laughter)—would be responsible for the rote he would not divide.—Vote agreed to. The next vote was 30,0001. for expenses connected with the new Houses of Parliament. This sum was objected to by Mr. OSBORNE and Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, as not bearing sufficient margin, the whole vote being 120,000 i. ; 75,C001. of which, it ap peared had, already been expended; and Lord LINCOLN tntimated that before the balance was called for he should inquire how it was that so much as 75,000/. had been expended during the first three months of the year. Ultimately the sum voted on account was reduoed to 15,000/. The following sums, on account, were also voted:-- 4,0001. for salaries of officers of public record. 50,000/. for stationery, &c. 10,000/. Metropolitan Police of Dublin. 3,000/. School of Design. 3,i,00/. Royal Dublin Society. 6,0001. Geological survey of Ireland. 50,0001. consular establishments. 8,000/. House of Industry, Dublin. 3,000/. charitable allowances in Ireland. 12,500/. steam communication to India by the Red Sea. 30,000/. civil contingencies. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, resolutions to be reported on Monday next. The Diplomatic Relations (Rome) Bill was postponed till Monday fortnight. LEASEHOLD TENURES (IRELAND). Sir W. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring in a Bill for converting the renewable temporary tenure of lands in Ireland into a tenure in fee. EXCHEQUEit OFFICES, &o. ' CONSOLIDATION. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, a Bill was ordered to be brought in for consolidating the offices of Paymaster of Exchequer bills and Paymaster of Civil Services with the office of Paymaster-General, and for making other provisions in regard to the consolidated office. The House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock till Monday. MILITARY INTELLIGENCE. CHATHAM, JULY 6. INVALIDS FROM INDIA.— Yes• terday afternoon, detachments of the 4th Regiment (King's Own), consisting of 1 sergeant and 23 privates, with 2 women and 5 children, with Quartermaster Ser geant Ponton, and 9 sergeants and 28 privates, with 15 women and 29 children, of the 51st (King's Own) Light Infantry, and 3 men of the 84th, and 1 man of the 94th, with 1 child, in charge of Lieutenant J. L. M'Andrew with Lieutenant T. P. Roberts, both officers of the 4th Regiment, arrived at the invalid depot, Fort Pitt, from Gravesend, at which place they disembarked from the ship Vernon, Captain Voss, late of the Company's ser vice. These troops sailed from Madras on the 17th of last March. During the voyage, Captain Bishop, a military officer of the Company's service, died, also 4 soldiers belonging to the 51st, and 8 children. The: 51st had been in India ten years. COURT-MARTlAL.—Private John Burrows, of the 22d Regiment, who was tried at this garrison by a general court. martial, on the 26th of February last, for desertion and making away with his regimental neces saries, received his sentence yesterday. The court found him guilty, and owing to his former convictions and general bad character, he was put under stoppages, and sentenced to be marked with the letter D, arid to he transported as a felon for the term of fourteen years. Her Majesty has been, however, pleased to limit the sentence of transportation to seven years. COAL MARK E' ...-YESTEEDAT. Bate's West Hartley... 13s 6dWalker Buddle's W. Hartley.. 14s Odi Eden Main Davison'sWegt Hartley 14s 3d i Lambton Primrose East Adairs Main..... 12s Od Belmont lss Od Hartlepool W. Hartley 14s Od Braddyll's Hetton . 158 6d Ilasting's Hartley l4s (kwdell . 15s Od Holy - well Main ........ 14s Od'Haswell l6s 3d North Pontop ..... ..... 118 Od Hetton New Tantield l 2s 6d L em bt on North Percy Hartley.. 13s 6dlMorrison l4s 3d Ord's Redheugh Tantield Moor Townley l3s OdiStewart's Wylam Wall's End, &c Kelloe l4s 6d Acorn Close Bewicke and Co. Brown's l3s Gases . 15s 9d Gosforth ..... . ......... 14s 3dl West Hetton . 14s 9d Hedley lledworth Killingworth l4s Od Ships at market—.. 93. [ADVERTISEM INT •] —Unprecedented Cure by Hol loway's Pills.—Thomas Symonds, formerly of Chatham Dock) ard, residing in Gravel-lane, Southwa rk, had been unable to do his work for three years. Elis lunge were supposed to be effected, having a dii,tressing cough, with feet and legs swelling, besides 'which he could scarcely ever keep anything on his storm ach, and was generally so weak and ill as to barely have power to stand; yet in three months this poor man acquired almost a new constitution by taking Holloway's Pills, and is now become so strong and well as to be! able to undertake the laborious duties of a carpenter on board a vessel about sailing to New South Wales. l'hese in valuable Pills are sold at Professor Holloway - 's Estab lishment, 244, Strand, London; and by all dealers in medicines. SALE OF A CHOICE COLLECTION OF N WATKE COLOUR DRAWINGS.—A sale of a choice collection of water-colour drawings by English artists took pl lace yes terday at Messrs. Sotheby and Wilkinson's auction rooms, Wellington-street, Strand. The collection con sisted of about 100 drawings, which, although small, were of the highest finish, and fetched remarkatbly high prices. The following were worthy notice :—`.Che Val ley of Guirchino, in Switzerland, by Gastineau; sold for 10/. A small landscape, by De Wint; sold for 41. 10s. " A Fen Mill," by the same artist; sold for 9 guineas. " Walton Bridge," by Barrett; sold for 5/. 12s. .6d. " A View on the Thames," by Girtin; sold for 9 guineas. " Verona," by Prout;one of his finest drawings; sold for 51. A Calm, morning, by Cotman; sold for 54/. l's. 6d. Venice, a fine drawing by Callon; sold for 8 vuineas. " The Page," a small drawing by Cattermole, in .his best manner; sold for 4 guineas. "An interior, Vespers," and the companion, " The Confessional," two fine draw ings by L. Hayne; sold for Si. 4s. "Windermere," a charming little drawing, by D. Cox; sold for 4/. 1.45. 6d. The other drawings by Westall, Pyne Turner, Hunt, Nash, Richardson, &c., were equally interestin;t, and sold well. In additi on t o th e d raw i ngs t h ere were some fine proof engravings sold at good prices. FRAUDS IN THE BAILING TRADE.—A Bill has teen brought into the House of Commons by Mr. Pa ,nkes, Mr. R. Spooner, and Mr. Henley, to provide more effec tually for checking frauds in the sale of bread and other articles of provisions. In future the weight of every loaf of bread is to be marked on the outside undar pain of a 40s. penalty. Bakers selling or exposing fo r sale bread deficient in weight will be fined ss. for every ounce that is found wanting, and so in proportion. map ectors of weights, and constables, may be empowers d by magistrates to enter and search the shops of bake rs and provision dealers, and to seize bread deficient in fiveight or not duly marked. The same penalties will be levied on fraudulent vendors of meat, cheese, butter, ,bacon, pork, &c. The Act will take effect from the Ist of October next. REVENUE LANDS.—The collectors and comptr oilers of the Customs department at the several ports and places throughout the United Kingdom have rtveived directions to prepare and transmit to the Commisaiioners the following account, viz., a return showing the! rents payable to the Customs and Revenue for lands off pre mises of every description within their respective. ports, specifying the periods at which the rents are pays We. ROYAL COLLEGE OF SURGEONS OF ENG LAND, JULY 6. —The annual meeting of the fellows .)f this college was held this day, for the election of three mem bers of council, in the room of Mr. Briggs, Mr. Liston, and Mr. Morgan, who all died during the past year, when Mr. Skey, Mr. Stafford, and Mr. Bransby 0 ioper were elected. Afterwards upwards of one hunth ed of the fellows dined together at the Freemasons' Hall ; Sir Benjamin Brodie, Bart., presided. ill Al I=l.S. On the 3d inst., at Exeter, the wife of the Rev. E. D• Tinling, H. M. Inspector of Schools, of a daughter. On the 3d inst., at Cambridge-street, Edgeware-roan 1, the wife of W. 13rockell, Esq., of a son. On the 3d inst., at Densworth Cottage, near Chichi. ester, the wife of the Rev. H. Smith, of a daughter. On the 4th inst., the lady of the Rev. W. J. Clarke, vicar of Swinderby, Lincolnshire, of a son. On the 4th inst., at Southampton, Mrs. P. Hast, of e daughter. On the 4th inst., at Hermitage Cottage, New Hampton► Mrs. C. L. Webb, of Trinity-square, Southwark, of a sm. On the 4th inst., at Upper Clapton, Airs. Xenophon 13 allip of a son and heir. On the 4th inst., in Davies-street, Berkeley-square, the wife of Dr. Woodfall, of a daughter. On the sth inst., at Radnor-place, Hyde-park, unde r the influence of chloroform, the wife of E. Houndle, Esq., of a 3011 MAARIED. On the Ist inst., at St. George's, Hanover-square, Ca ptsil. H. Joliffe, Coldstream Guards, to Leila, eldest daught el! 0 ' the late Sir T. J. T. Jones, Bart. On the 4th inst., at St. Marylebone Church, H William, eldest son of the late H. Gregg, Esq., of Bedf b rd' square, to Frances Winifred, eldest daughter of the latts 1 1 * Rouse, EN., of Stamford-hill, Middlesex. On the 4th inst., at Hove Church, Brighton, W. S- Norcott, Major in the Rifle Brigade, to Frances Mariau De' eldest daughter of the late G. S. E. Durant, Esq., of To og Castle, Shropshire. DIED. On the Ist inst., at Hasler Hospital, Lieut. H. M. Bak of R.N., aged 28. At Ewell Academy, Surrey, on the 2d inst., John, eld son of Mr. W. R. Monger, aged 21. On the 3d inst., at Brighton T. Raikes, Esq. On the sth inst., at York-place, City-road, Mary, the WI Of of W. 11. Stephens, Esq., aged 44. On the sth inst., at Launceston, Cornwall, CharlOft Augusta, relict of the late C. Harward, Esq., of Hayne H ous e' Devon. On the sth inst., at Upton, Essex, aged 70, Jane, relict ( 'f the late William Jones. On the 4th inst., at Vicarage-place, Camberwell, J1 1 . 1.5 ' Sharpe, relict of R. Sharpe, Esq., Great New-street, Lion s' . square. At Great Quebec-street,Major-General E. Walker, aged 7 , ; 3 ' On the 4th inst., at Brompton, Dorothea, widow of Store, Esq., of Great Munden, Herta, aged 76. London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, No. 112, Strand, Printer, at T ao he Sun Office, No. 1 1 - Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, ha the count! Saturday, July 3, 1848. t t 1 c t 1 , a !I 1 ..._ I