The Sun. — London, England, 1835-07-22 00:00:00

befOre the in by th e lc it corn n entered provided 3ill where it should yherc the ic 000 V /ince ; but le twenty sion I)4n a tired into Yea rs the Com ord wou!d let us seo ieu of the le present new av e. a averages e parties• average iassing of ► during a been e%; Lverage t taken by ttIE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JULY 22, 1835. --.................- .........-,....... m.r.. m.ar;11114 , ....... --."..... .' ' . would be the result ? There are 2,40 parisheli Ili lieiand. According to the showing of the Noble Ler& there are 860 parishes ,with less than fifty Protestants. Do I admit, then, tho rinciple, th at i t i s right to suspend the nomination of el e4';;ymen to those 860 parishes? Do I c ons id e r tart Course as bein g any other than a blow fatal to the Nsh Church ? I do not. But admitting, for the sake ct argument, that the Noble Lord is right, and I ant wrong, and deducting these 8 60 parishes from the 2,405, there will remain 1,544 p.arithtt in Ireland, each having more than fifty Pretest ant inhabi t p allts• Each o f those p .. ..rishes, according t o th e N o bl e L or d' s rinciple, is entitled co an independent minister performing w s p iri tual hiso f n unctio n: , Th e Noble Lord is bou n d by t h e R eport clueed Commis s i oners , an d b y t h e evidence they have Ad_ ail ; dif h e a d opts t h e course they have piointed out to d u , ort th e average he cannot assign to the minister of each Paris lih in I re l and, having more than fifty Protestants —fer I ar a ri, now speaking of any others—less than 1801. h year.— (1..0ud cheers.) But there arc 961 benefices in Ireland with n.ore than fifty Protestants in each: The Noble Lord was not, perhaps, at first aware of the fact. Yes ; but who entered (Cb'No their resolutions before their own Report was made ? c er'•) Your Report may convict us of a want of fore ysight in objecting to the inquiry ; but your Report will con ct you o f d eliberate error, if you adhere to your resolutions ter h e i o _ in ii possession of th a t Report.—(Loud cheerin g .) i t here are 961 benefi ces i n I re l and with more than one hun. ure d P rotestants in each. I proclaim that fact— 961 bene 4es in Ireland, with more than one hundred Protestants in "ch. There are 1,165 benefices in Ireland with a church in each of them —with two churches in some. There arc 1,383 Nchurches now in Ireland. A ccor di ng to the principle of the Lord, w h ere there is a church he will have a minister, ablewhere there is a minister he will allot an inde - endent stipend to that minister. Now, if the Noble Lor' following out f hi s own principle, will do so, and will P.Viot 220/. a year } : )r the maintenance of each Church ;.'n Ireland, so far from c 4N ntg a surplus to dispose of, he - ,rill have s. deficiency to (1.413'.--(Cheers.) I will talce. the benefices of Ireland now, with a number of Protestants in each, varying in amount. I which amount in number to 860; they are not requisite for "4-Y purpose. lam assuming now, in this branch of my argu toen, that the Noble Lord's principle is correct, and I am :04.!tiopting to show the Noble Lord that, on his owe prin -1% he cannot refuse his acquiescence in my requisition. laden 9 beneficey ryin s g i n i n ire nr nere are 670 benefices in Ireland, with a Protestant popu tio 1 ,000 mbor between 50 and 200. There are and, with Protestants varying from 500 ; there are 242 benefices in Ireland ; with more than ti ' l ° °° Members of the Established Church in each. I take bother lasses of benefices. Observe, lam abandoning alto 'lreland and make no defence of, sinecures in the Church of there I want to continue no inequality of provision. That , wii ,„: ' , tight to be an inequality of provision, varying with the a ' nt Po ulof duty, enablin g hi m w h o has to perform his duty in pous town, to maintain his station in society, and to den pet e with his _equals in rank, none -I apprehend, will 3% I divid e the benefices in Ireland Which contain a po ulatio n exceedi ng 50 into three classes. I take those with betty Frotestants between een 5 00 and 50 and 500, those with P ro t estants bene whicave a num- her ss of Protestantsl in ooo each and exceeding fices 1,000. h h Of the first ,I, , find there arc 670; of the second, 209; and of the saird, 242. Now I see no reason whatever why, in the city 1, 1 bub or in Cork, or in Belfast, there ought not to be th e lli g liti ngs amply provided with the means for the support of Pr rotestant li linister.—(Cheers.) If there be not, if the trtestant minister be not enabled to maintain the independ 4,„ss_,aarl respectability of his station, and to compete with his : 74 1 ' in life, then you are, in my opinion, not merely sacrifi toliht,l,lo man, but inflicting an irreparable injury upon the of titisnahment.--.(Loud cheers.) Supposing—l am speaking I,,hi _'es--supposing I allot 2001. a year to the 670 benefices, a m ot e '! vary from fife :ty to a hundred 'Protestants ; supposing I 500' t 3 „ °° , 1 : a Year only to the 209 benefices, which vary from ' oh] 's 1,000 Protestants; and supposing I allot 4001. a year an s „ Y _ to the benefices which have more than 1,000 Protestants, n lak "niing in number to 242, then the demand which I must l ow e 'Von the revenues of the Irish Church, for that extremely 293:15nod,rnoderate provision for its Ministers, will amount to 4178 1 ,,, ° - ; Whereas you obtain from tithe at present only aisn't7"•--4(Renewed cheering.) But observe that this argu *ssls all tounded upon an assumption of the number of be sisi4 'nand not of parishes.—(Hear, hear.) I• make no pro -I'ooo r urates, although in benefices containing . more than 'oak e Isrotetants, there must be curates to provide for. I " p o , e , no provi s i on for the deducticn occasioned by the tax m o44instUnd i er the Ch urch Temporalities Bill ; but I set off i ha that the revenue that may be derived from glebes, which th 4t v e not taken into account. The Noble Lord has admitted tii,iil lier ever the re i s a c h urch, or wherever there are more to ortY Protestants, there ought to be an independent minis fpisittAhe Est a bli s h ed Church, for the purpose of providing or the consolation for the members of that Church, and ton, th regular performance of sirial duties. whatever bserve, for t h at in My estimate I have map spiritual de no deduction ss se , na e eight hundred and sixty parishes, for providing the . re wre ° , flpirit u al consolation tbr which the Noble Lord will Zi,o oo/ ,believe, on his own showing, .from . 20 000/. to and 1 • in short if you take all the parishes in :Ireland, .1 0 , ' 4 ' l°l ' 190 4 a year for the performance of religious du tuall'o each, oot only will you have no surplus, but you will ac la.t,4ll:naLvewha. deficiency—( Cheers.) Now Sir, what is the Illater . Ich ought to be allotted to an' independent mi ttin , in Ireland ? By what shall that minimum be deter- Chu e s 7 - h , b -,Y what shall we be governed in fixing it ? The eat a'erporalities Bill assumed 2001. a year as the low raerertbthat, could be given, not in the case of a benefice all the'i,,,ut in any parish. I find that opinion confirmed by diseos s i, — P ar tial authorities who spoke on the occasion of the Mr, L• n of that measure. The present Lord Hatherton, then Tithe Lit that who was Irish Secretary, and brought in the 13 ' 11 of last year, entertained this opinion. H e sa id , " I I ° 3 ll . e c a lt r r . in the opini on xpressed by m y Hon. Friend that 2001. of ft, Is not t oo l arge a sum for the support of a clergyman -se Est a bli shed Church."—( Cheers.) " If t h e Protestant eligio n is to be maintained in Ireland at all, its ministers mkt b e placed in the condition of gentlemen."—( Rd e teering.) " From th e representations which have n been i nade to me, I believe that many clergymen of the Esta- Ili shed Church in Ireland, are, at the present moment, re ' t ,,, i ed but a short degree from the necessity of begging for daily subsisstence." I am not, therefore, establishing „ a i- a year as the minimum, on any vague assumption of my 711-, i Always bear in mind that I am assuming your own ,glue. Arid 'co be correct--that I am waiving the assertion of ~.„"v. and showing that upon your on principles you cannot ' ~,-",4t my view of the case.— (Cheers.) Dr. Lushington said-- T: 411 0 higher authority on the subject can be cited—Dr. mama ent a s _ tri , . Itsumilogton said--".I fully recognize the principle that Par win, , y deal with any surplus of Church property which Y exist after the necessities of the Church have been pro ,t,:risloe4dfor ; but the first and most . sacred of . . our duties is, to , s , ;' o for the support of the Christian ministers, and I ap- C e "end that no man who is not prepared to say that the Pro-, '• p ` r sta dit Establi s h ment in Ireland ought to be levelled to the ir*:),l'lld, will stand u p i n t hi s H ouse an d say t h at 2001. per lo ~n l ini ir si s too much."—( Cheers.) I will now refer to a Ro - thheotisel-:tah.tphroitlyie a o u f th;: i r r i . ty given in a different place. I mean Finn. I am . not speaking now, the 41713eallreiestsic:r11, a re n e d ollect, of curates acting under the control of looking forward to a peat rise in the Church 'to t s nuncement to, and reward for, exertion. I . am advert . xlir . e r evision which ought to be made for that independent sti t : l "eZ whom the Noble Lord admits ought to be con sls'4,l in every parish in Ireland where there are a Church +, si It than fifty Protestant inhabitants. Mr. Finn sai l , ed ' is evident that a man to be a curate must be es we d l at ti pped as the rich diocesan. Having been myself educate :: ( I ,oli ri ar n y it o Y f College, I can speak to the fact. I have always a, 8 that it was disgraceful that clergymen should receive only 75/. a-year ; and that the Protestant curates, while do the duty of the superior clergy, are underpaid, “"e the Roman Catholic curates ~re much . better pas ties more ,s e , F comfortable. It is well known that in the coon aant4)-}1 Kilkenny and Carlow, the Conran Catholic pea also • al° actually given relief to the Protestant curates, s se Y °f whom are placed in situations in which they are shr ink 1 k Y obliged to do that which they would otherwise sequence from doing, but which they are compelled to do in con titueenviclueroefh.t„h_e (miserable sum they receive from the Protes t% ?e iden ir.ce_canCheers.) Why, can you have more conclu you have more impartial testimony than, resident as it does, from a Roman Catholic gentleman Nit in ITelatld, who tells you that there is not a sufficient such is for the Protestant clergy in Ireland; yet that their c i'. t he force of sympathy and generous compassion for tarii istres ses, that the Roman Catholic peasantry volun h, 1 s,u'aject themselves to the charge of relieving them, and tfitl'in.ssr contributions removing the scandal of a starving irrit•trY• In order that the Protestant curates may not be t4fpelled to do what they would otherwise shrink from do iS and in order that the Roman Catholic peasantry may be rseved from this unjust charge of contributing from corn -1,7_,10n to the relief of their necessities, I cite this evidence as liorragable and conclusive evidence why we should maintain, 'Cler gy auPerfluous, but a sufficient provision for the Protestant of t h e --(Cheers.) The last authority I will cite on this part se nt e Sect is the most recent—it is the authority of the pre e Attorney -General for Ireland.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. siden!leman, speaking of livings, the incumbents of which re sor„e in this country, and drew the amount of their tithe from to •" ti Parish in Ireland, allowing a salary of onlya-year a gr e individual who really performed the duty, said, and I , Note onith him, " This is an evil which out to be redressed.' emio word have I said, not one word will I say, in vindi aent,n,°f such a system ; I will not only correct it for the pre the but I will correct it for the future, and I will insist upon cei sea rl g,,, h ! i of Parliament to require from any man—who re dati ~- ',II" EI-year, or any other sum, to perform the spiritual th e e l ? °I a parish, no matter on what conditions he accepted f lo _ re n al iv d l i ng s e h E g n e mediat e personal superintendence and the per of his duty.—( Great cheering.) I am, there , not contesting the primary principle of the Honourable ale,l2„tieman,but admitting it to its fullest extent. Now, he' what s ay , °' a , Right Hon. Gentleman further ? " I," says f.roin"t_h; inneootrn ( e ): e of those who would withdraw anything more to f g I would s k the working clergy. On the contrary, ti cs , see • to place those members of that body in a situa their sacred calling, by giving every actualisw incumbent not less than 2001. or 2501. a-year." nPon' have I not proved —not upon vague reasoning, not s, 1 • _ assumption—that my principles sic correct ? Have . s si.,'ot proved, as I said I would, out of your own admi3- 4 hi u s 7, that you ought to allot that provision to those mi ,,. Inc:. )sister of the Church who preside over benefices ,containing 6; i 4te ' e ban fifty Protestants.; and that if you-, execute, our . own sfh„, Iltioas, you ought to allot to every indcpendeut : rnimstpr, r',' h' name you may please to call him, a stipend, the ,:ti"nnisin of which should be 200/. or 250/. a-year.--(Lood ~s po k r l ' ) Why, Sir, we hear the Scotch Church constantly s's y 0 e n af ; adopt the principle of the Scotch Church, if ;, 14 ' 1 will, and-admit at least the inequality of benefices which ev eilk iri that Establishment, although the c o ch Church is lower on the average than the Church either of England or Ireland. Yet the principle of an unecittal distribution of parochial stirendt it ratifilited by that Establishment. I ap ' prehenci that the minister who is required to perform his duties in a populous city—Edinburgh for instance—where his ex• penses woql4 .be necessarily greater than in remote vil. taps, would receive a stipend double Intl ttl a ttlaattl , ittai:lthi. I tipPrehend there are livings in of North Leith ; so I apprehend the ,ikki i tit;ter'z; In Rdinburgh Gla,sereAr tbil In Li'reenock, an Hon. Gentleman near me re in amount to that al -1 Fives and the emoluments of which do not amount to less than 8001. or 1,0001. a-year. In t . 1.:: case or the living of North Leith—papers relative to which were presented the other day, the average reeelptt la' gtatzd td ,be no less than 674,/, 0 .yea...4 - Cheers. ) This is the stiPM of th,c ministtr cannot have, at at all, eVentit WI tfillil tut a year each. In larks, they receive the same ; but I apprehend that, in all these cases, a glebe-house is provided for the clergymen in country parishes. I knevr by the return to which I have already referred, that in the case of North Leith 60/. a year is allotted to the minister, in addition to the 675/., on the ground that there is no glebe-house.--( Cheers ) In all the country parishes of Scotland, the glebe-house of the minister is, I believe, kept' in repair at the parochial expense. Now I contend, that in Ireland, and in every country where the Es tablished religion prevails, you must adopt a corresponding principle. If you take 2001. a year as the minimum in a country parish, it is quite clear that when you come to settle a minister in Belfast, or in Dublin, or in Cork, if you expect him to exercise the natural influence of his station, and to be above the privations, and, I must be permitted to add, the tempta tions of poverty—it will be absolutely necessary to establish the same principle, and to provide for him, not a superfluous, but a sufficient maintenance ; and if you do that—if you adopt the scale I have referred to—if you do adopt 2001. as the mi nimum, and do allot'a respectable maintenance for the minis ters of the Church Establishment in the great cities and towns--again I say the conclusion will press upon you with ir resistible force that, so far from having any surplus to appro priate, you cannot execute your own intentions out of the ex- Jsting revenues of the Church - of Ireland.---( Cheers.) Sir, I shill postpone the consideration of Many portions Of the Bill of the Noble Lord, because I am not now discussing the prin ciple of that measure, so much as attempting to show that it is expedient it should be divided, and that there is at least so much of doubt as to the existence of any surplus to appro priate, that it would be most unwise in you to establish any principle which should lead on that head to extravagant ex pectations, which will most probably be disappointed. I post pone, therefore, any discussion on all those parts of the Noble Lord's Bill which make the clergy stipendiary upon the Woods and Forests. Now, the Noble Lord boasts of having 860 parishes, which he calls the breeders of his reserve. Is the Noble Lord at all aware of the practical injustice he would commit, if he were to execute his intention of abolishing these 860 parishes ?—( Hear.) His calculations hitherto have all been founded on the assumption that these 860 parishes are to be abolished, but I will now proceed to show you what grievous wrong you will inflict by abolishing these 860 parishes.— ( Hear, hear.) Why, Sir, in many parts of the west of Ire land, although there are parishes which each separately and individually considered do not contain 50 Protestants; yet in a great variety of instances they arc united into one benefice. which although it may consist of four parishes, every one of which cannot produce its 50 Protestant establishments, has more than 200 Protestant inhabitants in all. The Church is usually in the centre of the united parishes, within a tolerably accessible distance, I believe, of each individual parish, the joint contributions of which may, in many cases, produce the decent annual stipend of 2501. or 3001. But the Noble Lord meets with a union of this description, and finding that there are not 50 inhabitants in each parish professing the Pro testant religion, he sequesters the whole of the four parishes that constitute the union, because although jointly they may contain more than 200 Protestant inhabitants, they do not contain 50 in each.—( Cheers.) Any one would have thought that you would have rather reprobated the practice of uniting parishes at all. I declare I should have thought that, if your object and intention had been to afford a remedy for the exist ing evil, you would have severed the unions into their com ponent parishes, and allotted a separate and independent minister to each ; instead of which, however, the Noble Lord proposes to sequester the whole.—( Cheers.) Now, to show the injustice of this sequestration of parishes, I will take the case of a benefice composed of a union of three parishes ; the name of the union is Cullen. What is the operation of the Noble Lord's principle in this case ? Cullen parish contains 760 members of the Established Church. Very well. In Mostoun, one of the parishes, there arc only 48 members of the Established Church ; in Dromin there are only 40. Says the Noble Lord, " Here I find a union of three parishes, two of which have less than 50 Protestant inhabitants in each. I will therefore sequester the whole proceeds of those two livings, and leave the minister of Cullen to enjoy himself as he likes, because Cullen has 760 members of the Established Church.—(Loud cheers.) But although Cullen has 760 members of the Established Church, it has no income what ever.—( Renewed cheers and a laugh.) The income of Cul len is nothing ; that of Mostoun is 2481.; that of Dromin, 2041. There remain a congregation of 848 members of the Established Church. The amount of the present tithe com position is 4521.; the Noble Lord's blow of three per cent. will reduce it at once to 3171. But instead of leaving this minister in possession of his income, subject to the tax im posed upon it by the Church Temporalities Bill, to perform spiritual duties for 800 Protestants, the Noble Lord actually sequesters the income of the two parishes, and leaves the mi nister of Cullen with nothing at all.—(Renewed Cheers.) There are at least forty instances of a similar description which I might bring under the notice of the House.— ( Hear, hear.) I will take another in the south of Ireland, in the diocese of Ross. It is the union of Kilgarriffe, con sisting of the parishes of Kiliarry, Dysart and Island. There is one church in the three parishes, and that is Kilgariffe : there are two clergymen: the average attend ance of members of the Established Church is 500 ; they are increasing in number; the whole amount of the revenues of that union, which contains above 1,136 persons—the present amount of tithe composition, is 510/. ; reduce it by 1531., which is the amount of the Noble Lord's deduction, and 357/. is the sum which the first part of the Noble Lord's Bill would leave as the gross receipt of the parish Minister of a union in which there are 1,136 Protestants. The Noble Lord, how ever, then separates the other two parishes from it, and de ducts 2951. from the amount of the stipends of the two cler gymen.--(Cheers.) I will take as anotherdlnstance the case of the town of Dundalk. The benefice of Dundalk is a union consisting of the two parishes of Dundalk and Castletown. Dundalk is the county town of Louth, and contains 1,447 Members of the Established Church : Castletown contains only 14 Members of the Established Church, and contributes 200 t. or 210/. a year. The Noble Lord therefore argues, that because he finds only fourteen Protestants in Castletown, he may sequester the 200/. revenue of that parish, and leave the Minister of Dundalk, with 1,430 Protestants, one acre of glebe land, which produces 10/. a year.—( Prolonged cheer ing.) Now, Sir, have I not said enough to establish ground at least for pausing before we give a pledge which we must either hereafter redeem, to the inevitable injury, as it seems to me, of the Established Church, or lay ourselves open to the im putation of exciting hopes which we cannot doubt we shall be un able to fulfil. The Bill professes to consult the true interests of the Established Church. What are the true interests of the Esta blished Church ? It is not the providing . a sum of Si. or 201. in this or that parish, for the performance of spiritual duties on a particular day: in , the true interests of the Established Church arc involved considerations political, moral, and reli gious, as important as any that can possibly influence the consideration of this, or of any other question. The true in terests of the Established Church are not promoted by the defence of sinecures, by the retention of pluralities, or by the existence of gross inequalities in the amount of revenue. I fully admit it, and I am prepared to enter into the considera tion of the means by which the Establishment, without refe rence to political ends, or without respect for personal inte rests—always saving existing ones—may be preserved. I am ready to enter into the consideration of the means by which, looking to no other ends, the permanence of the spiritual estab lishment may be secured.—( Cheers.) I must maintain, how ever, that the interests of the Establishment arc not con sulted by relying either on the extravagant zeal or on the ex travagant and superhuman virtues of those who are to dis charge its functions. You cannot consult the interests of the Establishment without providing a becoming maintenance for each minister of the Church, in every case in which a sepa rate and independent minister is considered necessary. You exact from him great moral duties ; you exact great intellec tual acquirements—you exact a very expensive course of cducatien—you interdict him from other pursuits —you do not rely upon the same principles on which other churches proceed. You tell him he may marry ; you do not encourage celibacy ; you expect him to inculcate, by the practical force of example. those great principles which he is bound to en force by his doctrines. You do not consider that he is a worse member of society ; you do not consider that he is a less efficient Minister of the Establishment, if he found his best claims to the respect and veneration of his parishioners on his setting an example in every relation of social life.— ( Cheers.) And if you require these qualifications—if you do not discourage these unavoidable expenses—if you tell him that marriage is proper—if you encourage it, by calling the example of domestic virtue in aid of his spiritual functions—l say, in that case, according to the principles of your own Church, and according to the principles of common sense, it is not right, it is not decent, where you have the means, to subject that man to the privations and temptations of poverty.— ( Cheers.) It is not right for his own sake, it is not right for your Church—t is not right for the Roman Catholic population, over whom he is attempting to exercise the influence of his sta tion. On the subject of the influence exercised by the Church Establishment, I appeal to another authority. " I will ask (said the authority to which I refer)—l will ask further—and it is the last observation I will trespass on the attention of your Lordships—whether another important effect will not flow from this measure—namely, the effect it will produce upon the Roman Catholic population of Ireland. That was the effect of placing in the benefices of Ireland ministers placed beyond the reach of temptation by the possession of sufficient incomes. " The Roman Catholic population of Ireland, connected as their interests are with the respectability of the Protestant clergy of Ireland—l say, if any improve ment is to be effected in that body, it must be through the instrumentality of the Church—through the resident pa rochial priests. And when I refer to parochial priests, I am happy to inform the Right Rev. Prelate who ad dressed himself to the subject of non -residence; that it is intended to introduce another measure, for the purpose of conferring a further benefit on Ireland, by enforcing the resi dence of the ministers. I consider that a resident Protestant ministry will be most useful in its results. On this point I speak not from personal observation, but on the authority of those who have long and attentively considered this subject, and have followed it up ; and I assure the House that the utility of Protestant parochial ministers in Ireland, even through they will not be ministers of religion to tir3 large numbers of inhabitants in those parishes, will still be very great. The Protestant clergyman will be to his parishioners a minister of peace; for he will, by his station and constant residence, have opportunities of conciliating their good-will by sympathising in their wants and - cares ; by the performance of a variety of good offices, the importance of which it is hardly possible to exaggerate. If we strip the Protestant clergy of Ireland of all those causes of irritation which have existed with resnect to tithe. and relieve the Establishment of the odium that I;as attached to it in consequence of fa, cessif We are able to do this, and do place there men of respectability and indepeildede ag. jiticlts, w e shall establish 114 a ceeßeotiori Viii_a;ea,flie Protes tant eleigY add the C a tholic population of Ireland; which will be found most advantageous to the Established Church, and tend to the welfare and happiness of the country." These were the opinions —these arc the, opinions, I have no doubt, o f a great landed pr o p r i e to r o f freiand—of one wile neat holds a conspicuous station in the Councils of the Crown. 'They are the opinions of Lord Lansdowne—( Cheers)—who thinks with me that the public interests, and the interests of all classes, are promoted by spreading over the face of Ireland a Protestant ministry, and securing to each member of that mi nistry an independent and respectacle stipend—( Loud cheers. ) I do believe these opinions to be proper and correct : I do believe that if you consult the true interests of your Esta blishment, which you admit has a paramount claim upon you, you will correct every abuse in its constitution, and apply the surplus in the mode best suited to the promotion of its effi ciency.—(Cheers.) I regret that I have troubled the House at this length.—( Cheers.) I have endeavoured to fulfil the promise I gave at the commencement of my address : I have attempted to rely upon the force of argument, and upon the force of evidence. I have not borne in mind that the last time this subject was discussed it was made the arena on which great political contests were decided : I have not brought to the consideration of this question any feelings connected with disappointed ambition or personal mortifica tion—(Cheers) -- I have not attempted to mix up with it any peculiar interests or party considerations—l have not attempted to gain strength by any appeal to the passions or prejudices of the House—l have not attempted to decry the religious creed of any other party—( Loud cheers.) I have at tempted to rest this case upon the paramount claim which the Established Church has upon us Renewed cheering. ) You may take one of three courses. You may assert the right of the Establishment, or propose to correct it, but insist upon it that its claims shall be first satisfied, and until you arc satis fied that you have a surplus revenue, that you will not con sent to excite false hopes which you will afterwards find it utterly impossible to realize. You may ray, " Having made every possible reduction from the amount of the revenues of the Church—having thrown the onus upon tho Protestant population—having relieved the people from the church-cess —having relieved the public revenue from any obligation to build churches—having relieved the occupying tenantry from any direct contribution—having given a bonus of 3s. 101, as :ou say, but, as I think I have shown, of nearly ss. 10d. to the landlords, there we will stop, and insist on the application of the whole of the remainder to the interests of the Establish ment—the well-considered interests of the Establishment— feeling, as we do, that our means are not more than abundant, and that the Establishment is not more than sufficient."— (Cheers.) As to your reserved fund, which is to be applied to purposes of education, it is not to arise until every existing interest is provided for. To excite hopes on such a ground as this, would be to set common sense and reason at defiance. Can you expect that the people of Ireland will be such dolts as to lend themselves to so wild a scheme ?—( Cheers.) There is another course you may take—rash, unwise, and improvi dent, but practicable notwithstanding. You may at once de clare that the Roman Catholic ought to be the established religion of Ireland.__( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) You may say, " We cannot struggle against the force of events and the extent of popular feeling. We will go the whole length of an established Roman Catholic religion at the ex pense of Protestantism." Why, this would be speaking out ; this would be an intelligible proposition.—(Loud cheers.) In taking that course, you would be at le a st cons i stent .—( H ear, hear.) There is one other course which you ought to take. it is a course which is intermediate between the two. It is either to recognize the principles of the Roman Catholic reli gion, or to assert the permanent claims and rights of the Pro testant faith.—( Hear, hear.) The course which you arc at present taking does not settle the subject, but sows the seeds of a slow poison, which will eventually lead to much expense in litigation—( Hear, hear)—to continual discord—( Heard)— an d often much bloodshed—(Cheers)--to the ultimate extinction of the Protestant Church.—(Loud cheers.) If you mean to maintain the Established Church—if you are satisfied that that Church has no more surplus revenue than will supply the decent means of supporting the ministers of the religion, affirm that principle—( Cheers), and relieve .the public mind from the suspense in which the present uncertainty keeps it. —(Hear, hear.) The course which you are now pursuing simulates protection to the Established Church, while it shows real alienation; destroys the independence of the ministers of the Protestant religion, by making them stipendiaries upon the Government ; holds the ministers of the Church up to the public as persons who intercept the rights of the people, who crowd the avenues of knowledge, and appropriate to their own uses that property which ought to supply the funds for edu cation.—( Cheers.) This is the position in which the course which you are now taking places the clergy.—( Hear, hear.) You talk of a reversed fund ; but no one can calculate upon the operation of it, The effect, however, of taking that course, is to excite expectations in the Catholic population which I think you must know will ultimately give place to bitter disappointment.—( Hear, hear.) The effect of this course will be, that the ministers of the Church will be placed in such a state of dependence as entirely to neutralize the influence which they ought to have. By exhibiting the ministers of the Church as temporary proprietors of emoluments in which they have only a life interest, and which they claim as their property, whereas they are public funds applicable to other purposes, you exhibit them as at present intercepting the people from the enjoyment of those funds. I say take one course or the other. I think the last course less fatal than that a'hich you are going to take. But against that course I protest, from the deepest conviction—a conviction in which I feel you ought to acquiesce upon the evidence collected through the instrumentality of your own Commissioners, upon your own principles, and upon your ad mission that you had infallibly no surplus to give. The Right Hon. Baronet sat down amidst loud cheering from the Oppo sition which lasted for several minutes. The Right Hon. Baronet's instruction to the Committee having been read from the Chair, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. HUME rose together, but the latter gave way, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thenmoved (amidst loud cries of " Divide," from the Opposition), that the Resolution entered into by the House at the commence ment of the Session on the subject of the appropriation of the surplus funds of the Irish Church, be read by the Clerk of the House. The Resolution having been accord ingly read, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER again rose to address the House, but from the circumstance of his fre quently dropping his voice at the end of his sentences a con siderable portion of his remarks were unfortunately lost. Ho , aid that if the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat down was willing to admit the importance to the public of the sub ject, and the difficulty which he felt in meeting it, it might readily be imagined how much more difficult he (the Chan cellor of the xchequer) felt in following the address of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and he could assure the House thet as to the importance of the measure, no one could be more impre sse d w ith it s i m p ortance t h an he was. He could also assure the Right Hon. Baronet that he heartily joined him in fervent attachment to the Established Church, and that he gave his ready and earliest adoption to many of the principles laid down by the Right lion. Baronet in the course of his speech. He was ready to acknowledge his entire concurrence in many of the arguments and opinions adduced by the Right Hon. Baronet, but at the same time lie was ready to show how he felt justified in differing wholly from the conclusion to which the Right Hon. Baronet had come. He confessed that long as had been his experience in Parliament, he had never recollected hearing such a resolution as that of the Right Hon. Baronet, coupled with such arguments. What was the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet ? The Right Hon. Baronet either resisted the entire principles of the Bill, or else, adopting a portion of the principle, he was ready to proceed to the consideration of the measure in Committee. Now the argument was, that the Right Hon. Baronet adopted at least some portion of the principle of the measure, for he was willing to accompany them to the consideration of its de tails in Committee, and the Bill itself was unopposed on the second reading. Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would say that if he thought the Bill liable to all the objec tions contained in the arguments brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet in opposition to the Bill, he would have died sooner than have acquiesced in the second reading. — (Cheers.) He would not have sought to pick out aay small advantages from it ; but if he entertained the sentiments that it was liable in principle to all the objections urged by the Right Hon. Baronet, he repeated that he would have died in his place rather than have acquiesced in it.—(Cheers.) He would now point out some of the methods which the Right lion. Baronet had taken to rouse the feelings of the House, not only aeainst the Bill itself, but against its framers, and which had for its object the rejection of the Bill altogether. The object of the Right Hon. Baronet was evidently no other than an indirect mode of calling upon the House to rescind their own resolution, by a rejection of the whole measure. In the outset he would beg leave to give an example, not of the whole, but of one of the principal arguments adduced by the Right Honourable Baronet—an argument which appeared to have made the greatest impression upon the House. This example would show that it behoved the House to be careful how they received the statements of the Right Hon. Baronet as valid arguments, until such time as they were answered. Was there any one of the Right lion. Baronet's arguments which made a greater impression, which was more loudly cheered, and which appeared more conclusive, than that which regarded the division of the union of parishes ? The Right Hon. Baronet endeavoured to show that, in the case of the union of Kilkerrick, the result would be contrary to the inten tions of the framers of the Bill, and of those who supported them—for (said the Right Hon. Baronet) the union of Kilkerrick consists of three parishes, one of which contains only forty-eight Protestants, and another only forty-five Pro testants, while the third contained a great number.. Now it so happens that it is the two parishes-which. avethe few Pro teStants which.afford the means of supporting the clergymen, for nothing is derived f r o m t h e parish which has the large number ; so that if you take from the-union the two parishes which have under fifty Protestants, pin will take away from the parish which has the large number the means of obtain ing religious instruction. Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would address himself to those who cheered that statement. The clause in question was the 70th clause; and it would be seen if the Right Hon. Baronet had dealt fairly in stating it, 'The prcivisioa39f the 70th clause were these-, It provided that " in ease of parishes forming parts of unions, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners may, if they think fit, sepa rate such parishes from the union, and deal therewith as sepa rate parishes." Now was . that not different from what the Right Hon. Baronet had .stated ? Did the Right Hon. Baronet even allude to the circumstance of the Ecclesiastical Commis sioners having it in their power, if they thought fit, to make what arrangement they Weased. An Hon. MEMBER. read the 58th and 71st clauses. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would those clauses. He had no wish to conceal any - 1 "^n and Dundalk, it va in the 4 -- to continue certainty 'us.— thing but in the cases or -.‘,... pmyer. df ,f l / 6 o&iiettlatti.sal cs'ommiSsidners therii 11:e Mai'. df Id citattrtike: thet,n; Sir ROBERT PEEL—Are flied tifct rarlshel among the 860, which arc to be sequestered ?—( Cheers from the Opposition.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Oh, that is quite a different thing, The argument is quite different. It was quite true, as stated by tbd flight Ilona Baronet, that in case a union was disunited, the amount of the reserved fund was necessarily diminished, and surely it ought to be so.— (Hear, bear.) No one could suppose that there could be a reserved fund where there was no surplus revenue ; neither could any one suppose that a reserved fund was to be created from the union of Cullen, without allowing the Rector of Cullen in the first place a sufficient income for his decent support.—( Hear; hear.) It was quite true, that by the 71st clause, it was provided that if the union should be main tained, the income of the next incumbent might be subject to such reduction as the Lord Lieutenant should direct, with re gard to the duty in the parishes of the union, not containina more than 50 members of the Established Church. But the Right Hon. Baronet himself did not object to such a power of appeal as was allowed by this clause. As to the difficulties which the Right Hon. Baronet raised to the 58th clause, which provided that on the nest vacancy of the Church of any parish in which there were not more than 50 members of the Estab lished Church, such Church might be sequestered, those dif ficulties were met by other clauses in the Bill. But even if it were supposed that there was a difference of opinion between , the Right lion. Baronet and the Government as to the operation of these clauses, was that. an argument for the re-, jection of the whole Bill? Was it not rather. an argument for their going into Committee, in order that they might have an opportunity of fairly discussing the clauses, and seeing that they operated according to the avowed intentions of the fra mers of the Bill.—( Hear, bear.) Now he maintained that the Right Hon. Baronet had not dealt fairly with that part of the measure.—( Hear, hear.) He had not given a fair de scription of its meaning. He (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) contended that to every one who read the clauses fairly and without prejudice, even if it were assumed that there might be some doubt whether the intentions of the framers of the Bill were carried out by the Bill itself, there could be no doubt as to what those intentions were.—(Hcar, hear. ) He, at all events, could not see see how dividing the Bill could operate in removing the Right Hon. Baronet's objections.— ( Hear, hear.) Indeed, he thought that the real object in endeavouring to divide the Bill was much more in the nature of a desire to divide the House.—( Cheers.) It would have been supposed, from the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, that a general opening was to be given by this Bill to all po litical parties. (The concluding part of the Right Honour able Gentleman's sentence wee lost in the general cheering.) Now, the Right Hon. Baronet had avoided alluding to any thing which could interfere with his argument. He avoided telling the House that the Government had limited actions under this Bill, to the shortest possible time.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He avoided mentioning that no appeal was allowed after the expiry of six weeks.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He avoided mentioning that the strictest rules were pre scribed to all barristers to be employed under the Bill, be yond which he could not possibly travel ; nay, he even avoided stating that in cases where the excess was no more than one-fifth, the decision most always be in favour of the Church.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He did not state that no ap peal could be entertained unless a majority—not a numeri cal majority—but a majority of the property of the parish concurred in the appeal. The Right Hon. Baronet had therefore merely argued against a case which could have no existence.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had stated frankly, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thanked him for that admission, that there ought :to be some power of appeal.—( Hear, hear.) He would state a case that oc curred in the north of ,Ireland, which forcibly showed that necessity. It had been agreed among parties that a cer tain sum, say 500/., should be paid to the clergymin in lieu of tithes ; and on the supposition that the parish con tained a certain number of acres, this sum was al lotted at so much per acre. It was found however, upon measuring the parish, that it contained a considera bly greater number of acres than had been supposed, and the consequence was, that the amount of tithe paid to the clergyman was considerably greater than had been agreed upon. Now that was a case in which the power of appeal was necessary. But how could this or any other objection raised by the Right Hon. Baronet to this Bill be removed by the instruction which he had moved to the Committee ? (Cheers.) How was it that his object could be answered by making two Bills instead of one ?—( Renewed cheering.) The Right Hon. Baronet said that he wished to remove the difficulties which stood in the way of the progress of this Bill, but he believed that the greatest difficulty which the Right Hon. Baronet found, was the resolution which had been come to by the House.—( Loud cheers.) He rejoiced to find that the Right Hon. Baronet had become a convert to their Corn miss!on.—( Loud cheers.) The denunciations with which that Commission was assailed by the Right Hon. Baronet on its being first issued, were scarcely less eloquent, and certainly not less alarming, than those with which he now assailed the present measure—( Hear, hear)—and he (the Chancellor ol the Exchequer) sincerely prayed that they might prove equally untrue.—( Cheers.) They were then told that the Commission would cause the overthrow of all property, and that the Government would be held responsible for its effects.—( Cheers.) They were told that it would lead to• murder and bloodshed.—( Hear, hear I from the Oppo sition.) Was it then true that the Commission had led to murder and bloodshed.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) The Right Hon. Baronet was evidently intent . upon the commission of murder, but it was the murder of this BilL—( Cheers and laughter.) He would ask the House whet was the meaning of the resolution to which the House had come, and what the meaning of the motion which had been brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet that night ? The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of the process of exhaustion. He had spoken of the 30 per cent. as peculiar to this Bill ; but in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) opinion, the Right Hon. Baronet had himself made a pretty good begin ning in the process of exhaustion ; and in as far as the present Government. had gone further than his (Sir R. Peel's) Go vernment had gone, he held them responsible, but no further. —( Hear, hear.) He contended that the clergy were better off under the present Bill that under that introduced by the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite. Would a clergyman not prefer having the amount of his income secured to him as it was secured by this Bill, the Government undertakinm the responsibility of its payment, than any mode which could be eLsvised by which the responsibility of payment should be thrown either upon the landlord or tenant ?—( Hear, hear.) He had no doubt but the payment, as secured by the present Bill, would be considered in the market the better article, and would fetch the better price.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the perpetuity fund, which it had been proposed should be subject to redemption either in land or money, and stated that he had made a calculation, from which he found that in every ease a larger charge was to be provided for than if no redemption had taken plahe. Then, with regard to the Church Temporalities Bill, he was not willing at that time to enter upon the discussion of it at present, but he would say that lie still adhered to its justice and expediency. Sir ROBERT PEEL was understood to ray that he did not impugn that Bill. The . CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Yet that Bill was called the Church Robberies Bill—( Loud Cheers) — and it was prophesied that it would cause the annihilation of the Protestant Church—( Loud cheers)—for they were told that the moment a diocese came under the operation of that Bill, there would be no peace for the Bishops.—( Cheers ) That clamour had now been discontinued, hut he would say, that whatever objections might be found with that Bill, there was nothing in it which was not previously to be found in the statute law of the country. As to the Bill then under consi deration, it promoted the payment of the stipends to the clergy, and it provided for those clergymen who were not otherwise-provided for.—( Hear, hear.) And here he would beg to remark, that the Right Hon. Baronet had omitted, in the course of his speech, to mention several other considera tions which were necessary to be remembered in the discus sion of this Bill. Were there no such things as arrears due by the clergy ?—(Cheem ) Was there no such matter as the. million sterling which had been advanced by the people of England, through their representatives ?—( Cheers.) Were these matters so worthless, that the Right lion. Baronet, on taking objections to every clause, and taking objections to every principle involved in it, thought totally unworthy of notice? Were they unworthy of notice; among all the strong arguments which he had made use of, in order to reach so weak a conclusion ?_( Loud cheers.) He excluded all those considerations, and any person hearing the Right lion. Baro net's speech, would be inclined to think that the clergy had nothing further to do with this Bill, than in as far as it affected the payment of their tithes.—( Continued cheering.) They intended to make provision in this Bill—after making adequate provision for the Protestant Church,. and in con formity wi t h t h e terms o f t h e reso l ut i on proposed at the com mencement of the session, and which they were not disposed to abandon, and which he trusted the Hotise would adhere to —that if there appeared to be any surplus, that it should be devoted to the moral and religious education of the great body of the people.—( Hear, hear.) A resolution to that effect had received the repeated sanction of the House, and what had passed since to induce the House to alter it opinion on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) The resolution had not been agreed to without discussion—it had not been adopted with out weighing- well the consequences of the course they had resolved to pursue—and it had not been carelessly opposed by 'the Right lion. Gentleman, or by the great party of witieb he was at ,once the leader and organ: If ever there was a question Weighed in all its censequenees-Leonsidered in all its bearings—or. i narrowly .scrutinized in regard to the facts .on which it rested, it was that resolution introduced by his. Noble Friend in a: Committee of the, whole House; adopted by. that Committee-.-reported to the House—argued and agreed .to by the majority of Members ; and afterwards received in another form the sanction of the liouse:—( Hear; hear.) lie hoped that what he had said would be sufficient on this part-of the argtmnin-i: - . He - woad new put it to the House whether another argument adduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman was quite relevant to the question before the House ? The . Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to a number _of- statements that . bad been made On former occa tsions with respect to the number of Protestants in Ireland, He had referted to Dr. Doyle and other authorities on the subject, who had asserted that there was not more than 240 or 250,000 Protestants in Ireland—(Hear)—and the Hon. Member for Middlesex had stated the number to be about 500,000. The Right Hon. Gontleman had made reference to these assertions in order to show that the number of Protes tants had been greatly underrated, as it appeared from the Report on the table thee there were 850,000 members of the Est iblishment. Dr. Doyle had certainly underrated the num ber of Protestants in Ireland, when he said that there were not more than 250,000, but on the other hand Mr. Leslie Foster repeatedly asserted that the Protestants were one fourth of the whole population. The opinion, however, of Dr. Doyle or Mr. Leslie Foster, or any other polemic, had _ - -le with the question or affected the facts of the crs nothing to of the case. It appeared, from the Now what were the race.. • 852,000 members o f th e terms cif the Report, that there we., - •„ 1.4 •• eeier ! s aed Established ettereir hi Ireland, 660,000 Di ssen ters, making tool :toy Alit 1,500,000.—( Hear, nee:. He stood in the presence of many f." ( atholie gentlemen, whose opinions he had not the slightest wish to Wotited, but he could not help saying that he had rather Mr. Leslie Foster bed been correct, with reepeet to the number of Protestants, than the Report. They tritiefi hmeeeer, tale the correct view of the case, and, doing so, he would ask how were these Protestants distributed over Ireland ? The Bight Honourable Gentleman had excluded this important consideration from his argu ment, but had spoken as if the 850,000 members of the Church were equally distributed over the country, and as if the wants of the several parities, throughout the country were commensurate the one_ with the ether.—(Hear, hear.) Of these 850,000 Protestants, 517,000 belonged to the pro vince of Artnttgh, The Right lion. Gentleman never ad verted to this, but spoke as if they were distributed over the whole face of the country, and argued as if the circum stances were the same in each case. The fact was, that the very large proportion of tie Protestants resided in two of the ecclesiastical provinces--'-namely, Armagh and Dublin. It appeared that the number of members of the Church, in the province of Arniegh, was 517,000, and of Presbyterians, 638,000. The number of members 'of the Church, in the province of Dublin, was 177,0004nd of Presbyterians, 2,517: making -694,000 members of the Established Church, and 640,517 Presbyterians. The whole number of Protestants, therefore, was •1,334,517. In the whole of Ireland there were 852,000 members of the Establishment, and 642,000 Presby terians : making together 1,494,000. By deducting the number of Protestants in the provinces of Armagh and Dublin, there would remain 150,473 for the total number of Protest ants in the provinces of Armagh and Tuam. The number of Catholics in these provinces were—Cashel, 2,220,000 ; Tuam, 1,188,000: together, 3,408,000.—( Loud cheers.) This was another element the Right Hon. Gentleman should have taken into his calculation. He should have calculated on the different circumstances in which two of the provinces were placed from the other two. By the new arrangement and distribution which the Right Hon. Gentleman said that he was prepared to agree to, it might appear that in Tuam and Cashel there might arise an excess. - But than it was argued, if an excess did arise in those two provinces, it mutt be de voted to directly ecclesiastical purposes in connection with the Church in the other two provinces.—( Hear, hear.) Was this the mode of action which was likely to bring peace and repose to Ireland ?—( Cheers.) He was satisfied that by no such arrangement tranquillity could be produced in that dis tracted country.--( Hear.) If they proceeded in the train of argument he had just adverted to, they must retain the Pro- ' testant' Church of Ireland, even if all the people in that country became Catholics ; or by the argument that the Church of England and Church of Ireland were united Churches, they would be justified in drawing any surplus that might arise in the north or south of Ireland, and expend it in England on the portion of the Church in this country.—( Hear, hear.) He contended that if the principle was to be maintained, this re sult might be arrived at by a fair train of argument.—( Cheers ) He put this point to show, that the course the Government had pursued was not so unnatural as the Right Hon. Gen tleman wished to make it appear. He contended that the Right Hon. Gentleman was not justified in taking the whole case and leaving out of consideration the difference of circumstances in which different parts of the country were placed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Again, reverting to the Report, he found that the proportion that the Protestonts of the Established Church bore to the rest of the inhabitants of Ireland was 10 7-10ths per cent. In the province of Ar magh the members of the Church were 16+ per cent., of the population in Dublin 14 9-10ths per cent., in Cashel 4 per •:ent., and in Tuam 3 6-10ths per cent.—( Hear, hear.) The Roman Catholics in Armagh were 624 per cent., in Dublin 35 per cent., in Cashel 95 per cent., and in Tuam 96 per cent. of the whole population. In the diocese of Connor they formed 26 'per cent., of the population, and in Kilfenora not less than 99 1-3rd per cent. If the principle, however con tended for by Gentlemen opposite was to be admitted, they must afford the same measure of church instruction in Tuam, where the members of the Establishment only formed 4 per cent. of the population as in Armagh. where they amounted to 16 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) Whether this was consistent with the principle of common sense he would not detain the House to inquire ; but certainly it ought not to be left out of consideration. The Right Honourable Baronet had not re ferred to one particular diocese as illustrative of his argument, but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would do so. Those who lied heard the Right Hon. Baronet, if they knew nothing else of the measure, might reasonably believe that the supporters of the Bill were anxious to suppress the whole Establishment ; for lie did not 'show how much the circum stances of one part of the country differed from those of others. The diocese to which he intended to refer was a small one, and now annexed to the Archbishopric of Dublin, and afforded a model of the state of the Church in this part of Ireland.. The diocese of Emley contained a population of 98,000, the numbers of the members of the Established Church were 1,246, or 1+ per cent. of the whole population. They have 15 places of worship, and 31 clergymen. There are 42 parishes in the diocese and 17 benefices. In one benefice there is one member of the Establishment; in three dime are less than 20. In only four do they exceed 100, and in only one do they exceed 200. The average amount of tithe composi tions for each parish in this diocese exceeded 2101. The total amount of these 1,246 Protestants exceeded 7,000/.—(Loud cries of " Hear, bear.") Not satisfied with this state of the Church in the diocese, Parliamentary counties had been fastened on it. The Board of First Fruits, in the course of a few years, had expended in this diocese, containing 1,240 Protestants, with an ecclesiastical revenue of upwards of 700,0001. per annum, a sum of not less than 5,6701. on Churches and glebe houses, and had advanced as a loan a fur ler sum of 4,370/.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He would ask whether those facts ought not to be considered in connection with the general case. Again, it appeared from the Report of the Commissioners that there were 41 benefices in which there was not one Protestant. And these benefices, be it recollected, came under the operation of the 116th clause of the Bill of his Noble Friend opposite. The law made pro vision for such parishes as if all the residents were as much Protestants as the inhabitants -of the most Protestant part of England. This surely was not a state of things which any man who wished well to the Protestant Church could desire to see continued. There were 99 benefices, containing from one to twenty Members of the Establishment; 124 containing from 20 to 50; and 160 containing from 50 to 100 Members of the Church. Thus it appeared that there were 124 benefices each containing less than 50 Members of the Establishment, or 424 containing less than 100 Members of the Church. The Government, however, - did not propose to abandon these pa rishes, but they were anxious to make provision for the reli gious instruction of the Protestents. The Right Hon. Baro net had dwelt, at great length, on the hardship of giving five pounds to a Clergyman of a parish, for at tending to the spiritual wants of an adjoining parish, in which there were but few Protestants. Were they then to adhere to the principle that where there were no Protestants in parishes, Protestant clergymen should still be paid ?—( Hear, hear.) \Viten they p-oposed to provide the 51. per annum under the circumstances stated in the Bill, his Right lion. Friend said that it was an insult to the Irish clergy.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.) He trusted that gentlemen would not take his assurance for granted, but would be pleased to attend to an extract he intended to read from the Report of the Commis sioners appointed under the Bill of his Noble Friend opposite. These Commissioners were two Archbishops, two clergymen of the Establishment, and one layman ; and they had carried into effect the principle on which this allowance of five pounds was made, in not less than five benefices :—" With respect to the particulars of information obtained with reference to• these five benefices, all of which were collative, it appeared that the churches in all of them were in ruins, that there was no glebe house in any, and that the only glebe lands in them were ten acres in Carne and four in Ardskeagh ; that there were no Protestants permanently residing in Came or in Ards kcagh, while in Croghan there were only nine, and in Lis cleary and Seskenan about thirty in each--( Hear, hear)—and that the gross income cf the five be.lefices amounted to the total sum of about 405/. 13s. 6d. per annum. In no case did it appear that the spiritual wants of any of these be nefices at present required that a distinct curate or officiating minister should be specially licensed for the performance of the ecclesiastical duties in one particular parish alone, and conse quently the cure of souls, and all and every the occasional duties within the benefices so remaining unfilled, have been committed to the incumbents or officiating ministers of adjoin ing parishes, who have been nominated and appointed by the respective diocesans at stipends varying from 41. to 25/. yearly."—The Report was signed by Richard Dublin, R. Cashel, F. Sadleir, J. C. Erik, and W. C. Quin.—( Loud cheers.) The provision which lie propos:•d to make under this Bill was framed to avoid' difficulties which might other wise arise if the course adoisted by the Commissioners was pur sued. If they had not, however, the authority of this Report how much would.they have been taunted respecting this allow ance of 5/. per annum to a Clergyman for attending to the spiritual wants of an adjoining parish to his own, in which there were but few Protestants. They would not, however, now be taunted on this point, and those who had formerly sneered at the five-pound parson battery, must resort to some other topic, and adopt other arguments titan those formerly used. He would now take the case of ten benefices in Ireland, and show the circumstances in which they were placed. In the first there were four members cf the Establishment, and the amount of tithes paid was 4401. per,ann. ; in the second, therd were three-Protestants, and the tithes were 3351. ; in the third, 14 ProteStants and .600/. tithes; In the fourth, 17' Protestants and 559/. ti t l es ; in the fifth, 20 Protestants and 506/.' tithes ; . in the si x th, 19 Protestants and.. 8091. tithes; in the seventh, 20 ProteStatits and 74/ tithes ; in the eighth, 23 Protestants and 6121. tithes ; in the ninth, 12 Protestants and 4341. tithes ; and in the - tenth_,'there were eight members of the Church and the tithes were 500/. a year. Thus, in the whole of these . ted parishes, there were 144 members of the Establishment, and the annual income of the incumbents of them amount to 5,6291. —( Hear, hear.) Again he found the following resultsrtaken from 50 benefices selected from fifteen dioceses in the four 'provinces. The nuMber of the members of the Church was 525, the riarber of benefices 50; the numbei of resident Clergy, I 1 ; noneresident clergy, 39 ; in 42 benefices; there were churches, and in 8 there were no churches. The amount of tithes collected in these parishes was 13,3001. per animist. —( Loud cheering.) . These were some of the facts which were. not capable of contradiction, and which would induce the House to adhere to the ,solution which had before - been adoated, even for the sake of the Protestants themselves. The argument which he derived frem the facts he had stated, was that the continuance of the present state ef things tended to distract and ultimatzly to destroy the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman came down now and said that he wished to get rid of pluralities, to put a stop to non-residende and that he was against the continuance of any abuses in connection with the Church. • But how did he -show this ?—( Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to discover for the first time that these things existed now.—( Hear.) They eeeSeinly did exist, but not in that aegravated shape in which they were fermerly to be met with.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial t'eseltea. ) He repeated that the disorders of tad C,lturch did not nisi In the same aggravated shape now that they Jl4 in former times—Cheees)- - bat how long was it since the night Hon. Gentleman and those who sat with him had discovered the existence of those grevious complaints.—. flow many years was it since this new light had bromeen on him ; (Cheers.) He had no doubt but that the Right Boil. Gen tleman spoke from a conviction of the truth of what he was saying. There was, however, pleasure in the novelty at hearing such things from those on the other side of the House. They had been taunted with using many arguments for party purposes, but he had no right to say that between party and party one had as much right as the other to appeal to the nation by urging some strong arguments on this question. He would also observe, that between parties in that House Hon. Gentlemen on his side had as much in terest as those on the other, in preserving the Church of Ireland, and promoting the peace of that country. What had been the conduct of lion. Gentlemen opposite when questions had been brought forward which deeply touched on the subject, and affected the peace of Ireland. If there was one question which distract'[ the country more than another, it was the continuance of . the vestry csss, which was justly considered a most unfair tax on the people of Ire land. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew full well that that tax was regarded by the people of Ireland as much more vexatious than tithes. It was regarded by them as most op pressive and unjust, to be compelled to take money frona their. pocketssto _contribute, directly towards the mainte nance of a religion in Which they felt no interest, and which was repugnant to their feelings.—(Hear, hear.) The continuance of this obnoxiour tax occasioned the parish ves try to be made the constant arena of violent party and poli tical discussion ;--( Hear.)—and some of the most powerful political battles contested by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, had been at the vestry meetings of the city he now represented.—( Cheers.) These were the arenas where Protestants and Catholics met in hostile array, and where the most bitter and hostile feelings were excited. Attempts had repeatedly been made to put an end to this state of things ; but they had constantly been told that the end would be no thiag less than the destruction of the Irish Church.— ( Hear.) Those connected with him had come forward year after year, demanding that the then system of vestry cess should be got rid of, and that the charge for it should be defrayed from some other source. They had merely de manded that the amount should be paid out of the first fruits; but who, he would ask, bad opposed this.—( Loud cheering. ) He repeated emphatically, who had opposed this proposition ? ( Mr. Jackson repliceieln a loud tone, " Lord Plunkett ;" this excited great laughter, and renewed cheering.) There was a French proverb which said, that the absent were al ways in the wrong); he could only say that his anxious wish was, that his Noble Friend who had just been alluded to had been present, to afford a vindication of his conduct, which be (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew he could give. But who was the Irish Secretary at the time.—(Loud cheer ing?) Who then were in office, and held the helm of power ?—( Renewed cheering.) Was it not those very gen tlemen who had, after a lapse of years, come down to that House, and consented to afford a reluctant relief on this point 7—( Cheering.) They had assented to this relief most re - luctantly, and when they could not well longer withold it, and at a time, too, when the mischief which had been feared had been done.—( Hear.) He had no hesitation in saying that those measures of reluctant reform which had been extorted from Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite were almost evils in themselves.—( Cheering.) Were not many attempts made to improve the state of the Irish Church since the Union, and how until recently had all such attempts been met ?—( Hear, hear.) The Government were now charged with asking too much, but if they delayed to grant what had been demanded, they would soon find that what was now demanded was too little.— (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Attempts had been made shortly after the Union to produce some ameliorations, but they were always unsuccessful. All applications relative to a commutation of tithes were opposed year after year. His Right Hon. Friend the Paymaster of the Forces ( Sir H. Parnell) hall brought forward a motion for several years to take the tithes off potatoes, but his application bad been constantly refused. His Right Hon. Friend had then exerted himself to promote a commutation of tithes, and after several years' exertion, and when it appeared obvious that some change must take place in the system, the Right lion. Member for the University of Cambridge came forward with his Bill for this object, inade quate as it was. Further measures had become necessary, but they had.constantly been delayeduntil they lost half their value and efficacy. He had no doubt, after the sanction the House had given to the resolution proposed by his Hon. Friend, that they would go into Committee on this Bill. He trusted that no economical Member would be entrappel, from fear of the expence that would fall upon the country, in conse quence of not repaying the million advanced to the Irish Clergy. --(Hear, hear, hear.) This was a point which be would not then advert to, but he would remind the House of the large sums expended by Parliament on the Irish Church, independent of its income, for the purpose, as he supposed, of quieting the Irish people. If they referred to the Parliamentary votes for the Irish Church, they would find that; from 1801 to 1807, 4,615/. a year was voted; in 1808 and 1809, 9,2301. a year; in 1810 to 1816, not less than 55,3841. a year ; in 1817 to 1821, 27,692/. a year ; and in the years 1822 and 1823, 9,230/. a year. Thus, in thirty years 593,377/. had been expended on the Irish Church since the year 1800, independent of its income, and taking into account the money that had been advanced in addition, not less than 920,900/. had been granted for this purpose.— ( Cheers.) The people of England could rcercely be ex pected to consent to the non-payment of the money advanced to the Irish clergy unless they saw that the question was likely to be settled in a satisfactory manner.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentlemen had dwelt at very great length on one part of his speech, namely, in, endeavouring to show that there would be no surplus re venue at all. He had endeavoured to prove this iaa stating that if 200!. a year was given to each clergyman e and thiewas multiplied by the number of parishes in the country, such a sum would be required that no surplus could by possibility ac crue. Now, there was this difference between himself and the Right Hon. Gentleman—he was not disposed to give a cler gyman 2001. a year when there was no flock.—(Cheers.) lie was not disposed to establish clergymen with an income of 2001. a year when he had been told by the Commissioners to whom he had alluded, and two of whom were Protestant arch bishops, that there were thirty Protestant clergymen who had been satisfied with getting 251. a year for attending to the spi ritual wants of the Protestants in adjoining parishes to their own.—( Hear, bear.) They had the authority of the Commis sioners to make a moderate allowance to the clergymen of ad joining parishes, and thus they would be enabled to dispence with a resident clergyman in each parish.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, therefore, in assigning an income of 2001. per annum to clergymen, of every parish, did not adopt a course of argument which was consistent with the course which it was proposed to pursue in regard to that Bill. He could net help takleg the liberty of saying that the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, powerful as it was, did not, go, any way to convince him of the expediency of the course proposed by him. He was at a loss to conceive how the Right Hon. Gen tleman could reconcile it to ijmself, or convince any Gentle man that any advantage would be gained by dividing the Bill. (Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to the appropriation clauses time proper time to do so would be in the Committee ; where, if he pleased, he could move their ex pulsion from time The House of Commons, however, had decided, after full debate. that no measure for the settlement of' the question of time Irish Church would be satisfactory which did not involve the principle that it was necessary to make pro vision for applying any surplus revenue that might. arise to ge neral, moral, and religious instruction in Ireland, and he did not think that they would be readily induced to abandon that principle,—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, called upon the llouse to divide the Bill into two parts, and why did be do so ? Was it with the view of evading a material part of the Bill? Did he do so with a view of eva ding time important principle which he had so strongly objected to? Was the Right Hon. Gentleman anxious to pass a Bill for the settlement of the tithe question, and to leave out all those parts of it which related to the appropriation ?—( Loud cheers.) Would it not have been much more decent if the Right Hon. Gentleman had come down at once aatd asked them to rescind the resolution they had sanctioned in go many forms ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) This, however, he had not done, but merely came forward with a proposition to divide the Bill into two parts, that the one part might be disposed of without touching on the other. There was one more extract to which he would take the liberty of calling the attention of the house. The passage itself was so important that it might well warrant him in so doing, without reference to the high au thority from which it was derived. He was referring to Knox s Remains, and the extract was taken from vol. I, p. 48. The date was June, 1816. This writer said—" How arc the two Churches one, except in the arbitrerious, unpractical position of the articles of Union? In political matters, union between the countries being substantiated by effecasve arrangements : in the Ecclesiastical instance, it consists solely :n a gratuitous assertion, to which every circumstance in both chu:ehes gives self-evident contradiction. To lay stress upon this asserted unity, therefore, as a reason for including both churches in all measures of ecclesiastical legislation is worthy of a statesman who thinks that multiplying schools and distributing tracts will cure the long-rooted and long• rankling malady of this myste riously afflicted and miserably ill-managed country."--( Cheers) The argument of the Right Hon. Baronet was equally appli cable to the English asto the Irish Church ; but the condition of the two countries .was .essentially -diffesent ; and because it was so, be dissented from the ergurneat of the Right lion. Ba ronet, add must discuss this 'question with reference to the pe culiar 'condition of. Ireland, not . on,general but on pecull4r principles. - ( [leer, hear, hear.) The [light Hon. Gentle man thus concluded I will say, let those lion. f3entlenaen who wish.to retraceelieir steps support this resolution, .but let those who think that the' farm decision to which t h he House t came ‘A as founded in justice, reiterate their opinion trill t b vi 3 ng pi. t e, hi l t u r i e j s u o g l etthioorin3.3—ceihiFreoll:ns. examining) t 1 1 3.1 e s h o e r h hereafterianlge isth e:tch of the measure, or from iecedring