The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY 'EVENING, FEBRUARY 11, 1848. We believe that in Leeds and several other large towns, the sectional boards, tenacious of life, oppose this transfer of their present limited powers; but common sense dictates that in Sheffield and all other incorporated towns, the municipal council is the only body to whom these important powers should be entrusted." With regard to a particular part of Sheffield they say— " The cesspool here is generally full, and the accu mulation of refuse so great that the house adjoining is seldom occupied and scarcely tenantable. It is a re markable fact, that scarcely any of the children born in this yard who were attempted to be brought up came to maturity, for out of the four houses which i t contains (one generally empty) no less than thirty children have died within the last forty years." In regard to another place they say— " Sixteen cases of fever and one of death have cccurred in the adjoining houses within a few months., end four cases of fever and two deaths in houses whose windows are directly opposite to the point where drainage from this lane escapes into Edward street. It is worthy of remark that no such cases have occurred in places fur ther removed from this vicinity; the inference in this instance is irresistible." They add— " We would suggest the adoption of the following measures,— namely, better constructed dwellings both as regards light and ventilatiou—(Hear, hear)—and a liberal supply of water; the substitution of water-closets for the present open privies, and as many as possible of them in relation to the number of houses; also more spacious and commodious yards well paved and drained, with public washing houses and baths in populous die tricts; and, above all, places fur proper and rational recreation."—(lletir, hear.) I have now carried you—l had almost said too rapidly —but I feel that I have already trespassed upon your patience too long—(Cheers) —but with reference to the subject and the materials it might easily have been pur sued—l say, I have carried you in a rapid and most imperfect survey to some of the towns and cities in this country most distinguished fur these prominent charac teristics. I have mentioned the places which supply the greater portion of the fuel which feeds our chimneys and our furnaces, which forge the iron and the steel which first shape and then waft along our countless manufactures; which weave those fabrics, that, even on the barks of the Volga, enable us to enter into competi tion with and outsell the finest fabrics of Asia, and to clothe the inhabitants of the furthest tropics. Shall it be said—or if it has been said hithert s, shall it be said any longer—that these vast hives of industry, and the sources of such unlimited supplies to the comforts of civilization and the whole race of mankind—thaSethe homes of the men who do and make these things should be pre-eminent as the seats of filth and disease and de gradation in their worst shapes and forms ? (Hear, hear)—that toils the most unsparing, that exertions the most successful, should he beset with these enervating and deadening influences ? that these herculean labours which cannot now be said to be in the cradle shall not be able to strangle the noisome reptiles which infest them ?—(Hear, hear.) Even here to-night I ask for the labour of Britain and ;ts agents all the advantages and all the appliances which your fostering care and your advancing knowledge can give them. I do not ask you to stifle individual enterprise or local efforts with Government interference, or with too much looking after. I would leave these to their proper action and their legi timate exercise and development. But I do ask you to make the imperial knowledge and science and skill of our best heads and most adroit hands available for pointing out to them the true and proper path, and for taking care that they shall not go far astray from it. I beg to move, Sir, fur leave to bring in a Bill for this pur pose.—(Cheers.) Colonel SIBTHDRP said, he was inclined to look with a considerable degree of jealousy on this measure in consequence of the exemption of the metropolis from its operation. He confessed he had cheered the Noble Lord on the present occasion when he heard him intro duce the word metropolis ; but a friend hinted to him at the moment that he had been too hasty in giving that cheer ; and he found he had been so, for he was greatly disappointed that the Noble Lord still persisted in with holding this great boon from the metropolis when he gave it to other towns which he was sure did not so much require it. The House had been told that a com mission had been appointed for some time to make a report. Why, then, was their report not on the table ? Ho would like to know, too, whet were the salaries of the Commissioners? He was ready to support the Noble Lord in carrying any measure of this kind which should extend to every part of the United Kingdom; not only so, but he was ready to contribute out of his own pocket to assist the object ; but he called upon the Noble Lord not to be content with a partial measure like the present. Lord DUNCAN hop, d it was unnecessary to assure the House that he would be the last person to rise fur the purpose of placing any obstacle in the way of a sanitary measure. He had listened with the deepest attention to the speech of the Noble Lord in introducing the prevent Bill, and he roso merely with the view of directing the Noble Lord's attention to one omission which he had hoped from the notice he (Lord Duncan) had placed that night on the table would not have occurred. The Noble Lord had remarked that there had been a great deal said and little done with respect to sanitary measures. He (Lord Duncan) fully contarred in that assertion. But the Noble Lord had also been pleased to say that he had observed great apathy respecting this measure out of doors. Ile begged to tell the Noble Lord that there was no apathy about sanitary measures out of doors, and that the working classes were anxiously looking for the interference of the Legislature on the subject. The Noble Lord stated that the object of the measure was to check obvious abuses. Now, he (Lord Duncan) hail listened attentively to the Noble Lord's list of obvious abuses. The Noble Lord had mentioned defective sewerage and drainage, but he thought he spoke rather tinder his breath when he came to the subject of ventila tion, although he remembered that not many years ago ihe Noble Lord was quite eloquent on that subj , ct, as well as on the window-tax. The Noble Lord, in a speech made by him at Wakefield on the 20th of July, 1846, said— " Amongst other matters, the lodgings of the bulk of our population are far other than what we should wish to see them—(Hear, hear)—and they are capable of almost indefinite improvement by receiving increased facilities for the acquisition of fresh air, of good water, of more space, and of wholesome light." He held in his hand tho report of the Committee of the Health of Towns Association, which met to consider Lord Lincoln's Sewerage and Drainage 13111. The Noble Lord (Morpeth) was a member of _that Committee, and being at the time in opposition, looked at the Bill with the eye of a jealous critic. Lord MORPETH denied that he had ever attended the Committee. Lord DUNCAN said, the Committee had published the report with the Noble Lori's name attached to it. He retnetnbc , red that in " Gulliver's Travels" the people of Laputa are re-presented as being so taken up w ith sublunary matters that they required flappers to refresh their memory. If the Noble Lord would allow him he would act the part of his flapper—(A laugh)—and read an extract from the report. [The Noble Viscount then proceeded to read the extract, in which the Com mittee, after having discussed Lord Lincoln's Bill clause by clause, said there was one subject so intimately con nected with sanitary improvement that no sanitary mea sure could be complete without it; but it was wholly passed over by the Bill in question, and that was the subject of the window-tax.] He perfectly agreed with that report. The Noble Lord had said very little about the ventilation of dwellings, and no wonder, for he held in his hand an account of a case that had recently occurred relating to the window-tax, and which had been referred to that House.—(Hear, hear.) It was the case of an unfortunate individuat— e Mr. John Williams, a solicitor at Penryn, who having heard a great deal about the benefit of good ventilation had made a few apertures in his pantry. For those he was charged a large SUM for window-tax. The magis trates relieved him from it, but the surveyor appealed, and three Judges of the Queen's Bench decided that he was liable to the tax, and fined him for having actually ventilated his dwelling. He had no desire to bring on a discussion about the window-tax, but he wished to show the Noble Lord that there was a strong feeling out !..of doors, that no sanitary measure could be complete which did not embrace the subject of the window-tax. (Hear, hear.) The people of this kingdom were look ing forward to a revision of taxation, and to an appor tionment of it to each man according to his money, and he would tell the Noble Lord that neither this nor any other sanitary measure he could introduce would be popular in this country unless it grappled with a ques tion which might be difficult, but which was to be Overcome. Mr. HORSMAN said, the Noble Lord who had moved for leave to introduce the Bill had manifested all the zeal of a philanthropist with the ability of a states man. The measure was large and comprehensive, and if followed up with 'vigour it could not fail of success. He thought that the number of Commissioners pro posed by the Bill was the best that could have been fixed upon, and as there was no such bad economy as underpaying public servants he trusted that the Noble Lord a ould not be deterred by any taunts of creating patronage from making his commission efficient in that respect; and that whoever the Commissioners might be they would be adequately paid. The annual salary of 1,000/., which was suggested last year, was, in his opi mon, very much too little for the purpose. But it lie adverted to one old grievance, he hoped that the Noble Lord would not doubt that he fully appreciated all the Noble Lord had done. He could not but regret the omission of the question of interments in towns. But as the Noble Lord said he should bring in some supplemental Bills, he hoped that, difficult as the subject might be, it would be provided for in those Bills. Six years ago, when this question . was brought forward by the Right Hon. Member for Lincoln, a Committee was appointed and made a report; and in that report Dr. Chambers said he believed that the fever which was called typhus, then prevalent in the neighbourhood of Brook street, was oc casioned by the effluvia arising from the burial grounds. Sir B. Brodie, Dr. Copeland, and other eminent medical men expressed similar op inions. In the history of Par liament never was there such a body of evidence laid upon the table—evidence of horrors such as he had never perused before, and trusted he never should again. Since then various Bills had been proposed, but nothing effec tual had been done. It was evident that there was some difficulty too great for all Governme nts—and that it was a most mysterious one. The Noble Lord said distinctly last year that the clergy were quite willing to give up their interest and render every a ssistance in their power. Twenty years ago Mr. Milman, the rector of the parish of St. Margaret's, Westminster, had declared that the burial ground there could no longer be used without danger to the health of the parish, and it was said there would be no more burials there. But that very morning, as he (Mr. Horsman) was going to the House, he saw a grave opened in that churchyard. He hoped the Noble Lord would believe that he was not censuring him for not introducing the subject into this Bill; but that if the Government felt that they were able to carry out an effiQielit ilisurel the Noble Lord would then intro- destroyed by their long illness. There were several persons ill in two houses of the same terrace, and doubt less from the same cause." Ile had abstained from making an allusion to the lamentably long list of persons, whose duties as medical Men, poor-law officers or those engaged in the service of religion, had called them into localities in houses where they received the seeds of maladies which hurried them into the grave. One name, however, prominently headed the list, that of Dr. Jordan Lynch. The other individuals he would not site, but he might be permitted to refer to an extract from a statement which had reached him from Newcastle. " A few short months ago Bishop Riddell, the Rev. J. Standen, and Dr. Charlton, were in communication with the authorities of Newcastle, to represent to them the filthy, overcrowded, and infected condition of Sand gate and neighbouring localities. Tht project was then entertained of removing fever patients to a more open and elevated part of the town, where, in some temporary or other building, their chance of recovery would be greater, while the spread of the infection among the in habitants would be kept in check. A similar suggestion was male by Mr. Greenhow at the time of the cholera. Dr. Bowring, in the paper which he read at Newcastle, in 1838, at the meeting of the British Association, gave a rem irleable illustration of the success of such a re moval in the case of the plague; but the proposal of June last, in Newcastle, was not adopted; the sanitary condition of the infected dieti ict has since undergone little amendment, and the fever has extended its ravages. The Rev. J. Standen is dead—the Right Rev. Dr. Rid dell is dead—martyrs to their self-denying devotion to the cause of suffering humanity." Ile knew it would be said that all those men died in their vocation; but it ought to be recollected that there had been no provision made by a munificent nation for the widows and orphans left behind them by the class of men to whom he referred.—(Hear, hear.) There was a gentleman whose name would be familiar to many agri cultural-Members—Mr. Josiah Parkes he meant, who was engaged in some extensive drainage operations, and who thus expressed his sentiments upon this important subject:— "Fewson is here, his mother being dead; she was buried yesterday. She was a nice, clean, hard-working, respectable woman, and, what is very vexing about her death is, that a nasty, filthy town drain, that runs under their house, has been the cause of it. I tell Fewson he should inform Lord Morpeth of it. Such deaths are really awful, and of very common occurrence. Fewson is my superintendent of drainage in the Phoenix Park. Ile writes me that he fears his father will fall a sacrifice also to the same disease. I find that within a space of 30 yards square there are 16 houses, wherein there have been 18 cases of fever, one of which, Mrs. Fewson, has died; and several others have had a very narrow escape. One medical gentleman, Mr. Boulton, a magistrate, who has attended sixteen out of the eighteen of the above named fever eases, is of the same opinion as myself, that those fever eases are broupht on by the bad state of the drain, which is alongside of the thirty yards square ; in fact, Fewson's house, I believe, is partly built upon it. The drain is a public one, for the use of the east part of the town ; it is arched over about twenty feet beyond the thirty square yards, but from the yards there are side drains and grates without cesspools, and also beyond the thirty feet, it is an open drain, the stench from which is at all times very offensive ; it is one of the worst drains we h ave ; b ut t h e w hol drainage of the town is very bad, very shallow, with little fall, so that they always contain large quantities of stagnant water and filth, which I fear nothing can remove, except your Health of Towns Bill." He (Lord Alorpeth) had received a report from Mr. Croskell, of which he would read an extract "I made inquiries of one of the most practical men in Beverley, who is well acquainted with the drainage of the neighbourhood, and is now professionally employed in the Barmston drainage, which runs from near Beverley to the sea, and he, while quite admitting how Open the locality to which your Lordship's attention has been called is to complaint, yet assures me that there are many worse instances in the town, and that nothing but a general deepening of the drainage can effectually remedy the evil under which the town, in this respect, labours. This can only be accom• plish e d th roug h some such measure as your Lordship's Health of Towns Bill, and until that has been passed, and it is rendered compulsory on local authorities to deal with these evils, I feel assured your Lordship would not attain any satisfactory result by interference in an indi vidual case like that which has been pointed out to you at Beverley." And many other communications which he had received on the subject corroborated the statements just read. But were those cases to which Mr. Parkes, Mr. Croskell, and others referred extreme ones ? Was the drain described by the former gentleman as having caused the death of one or more individuals an isolated one ? Did Beverley stand alone in its unhealthiness ? This could not, unfortunately, be asserted. In Suffolk the statis tical and sanitary reports gave results which, if not similar, were very considerably worse. He would quote from Mr. Glyde's report, which stated that the " Average annual deaths in Suffolk (from a calcula tion of seven years), were 1 in 51; in Ipswich, more than 1 in 42. If wo assume the population during this period to have been 25,600, and the rate of mortality to have been the same as Beverly and Yarmouth, the num ber would have been 512 instead of 603, showing a loss of 728 lives in eight years. (This reference to Beverly shows that it is regarded as a favourable instance of a salubrious town.) Infantine mortality is considered ono of the most important tests that can be applied to prove the sanitary condition of a town. In Whitby, 26 per eent.4 in Lancaster, 29; York, 31; Ipswich, 39 per cent. die under 5 years of age. In Ipswich there are 103 streets and lanes,ls of which are without any drainage, 19 with surface drains on one side only, extending only partly through them; and 42 streets and lanes not paved. . Where there is no drainage dampness is a general complaint. Paper wets on the wall, water rises - in the cellar, and things get mouldy in the cup board. Several cases were 10 or 12 houses have privies in common. The purity of the water which comes to she town has been spoken of in high terms, and the ability to afford abundance generally.seknowledged. Yet the water from the pumps is complained of for its impurity, and many of the poorer classes have a great distance to fetch their water. On the head of expense, there were in 1642, 82 deaths above the average of Huddersfield and Beverley. The general expenses of these at 41. 10s. each amounted to 3a9,137/. Deaths were from consumption 41 above the average of England. Taking the duration of illness at nine months, the expense of sickness at 10s. per week, there is a loss froth excess of deaths from consumption of 7281. If for every death there are 20 cases of sick ness, an excess of 82 deaths would give 2,296 cases of unnecessary sickness. Take the average expense of each case of sickness at lOs , there is a loss from unnecessary sickness of 1,1481.; excess of funerals, 36 91.; deaths from consumption, 7281.; unnecessary sick, 1,1481.; total, 2,2451." But he would not take the House through these de tails as regarded the United Kingdom—he would content himself with laying one or two cases before them, in order to exhibit the condition of the highest and most Wealthy provincial and manufacturing towns. From the town of Newcastle, Dr. Ileadlam wrote thus:— " Ile was sorry to say that streets and suburbs were rising with the same disadvantages. Streets were built without sewers, the ground not even levelled, and the soil in the cen t re saturated with filth.' Mr. Currie, of the Working Men's Association, said, He and other members of the committee were appalled by the scenes they had witnessed. He had never conc eived that a - "City existed in so miserable a condition as Sandgate. There was not a privy in its whole length or breadth.' Mr. Gallee resided in Westgate. The annual value of the property was 25,0001.; little more of the property there valued at 5,000/. was reserved. Places quite as bad as Sandgate.' Dr. White, The statements of Mr. Carrieaad Mr. Galle were not overcharged. The misery °andgate could not be conceived; it mst be seen to be believed. In one single room in that lo u cality he had "ea 13 cases of fever.' Mr. Greenhue—' They were too i . well aware of the prevalence of fever in Newcastle for some time past ; during the whole of this time,while the gaol was surrounded by fever, there had been even less disease than usual within its walls. To what was this to be attributed? Simply to the adoption within the prison of those salutary regulationsawhieh it was their object to extend to the whole community.' " Dr. Lonsdale, in his report on Carlisle, says— . " In th e assu rance tables of this country the mortality In Carlisle within the last 20 years used to be estimated at 1 in 54 of the inhabitants, being lower than the present average of the 15 bealthiest counties in this king „?re • Now, in 1841 it was 1 in 39, ,being actually higher If, that of the average of the 15 unhealthiest counties! ta as is now admitted, the healthy and natural standard ofa mortality in England and Wales is 2 per cent. per ; l ame, or 1 in 50, it is evident that Carlisle, with its ate of mortality 1 in 39, or more than 2i- per cent. per annum,r. stands greatly in need of sanitary improvement." ?that, if the average mortality of England and Wales2tieper w e r e s n s t t ., ak s e h n ow at in a g in 100, the ratio of Carlisle was that it was more unhealthy than .h average of places. The towns of Hull, Wolver hampton, Bradford, Hertford, Ware, and many other Places whence returns had been received by pains-taking persons, gave th e same gene ral results, and ho would now " 1 3' quote the report which had reached him from Sheffield, drawn up by James Heywood, a chemist, and W. Lee, a civil engineer, resident there:— t 8 ` We wish we cou ld fi n d language sufficiently strong , o impress upon the council the absolute necessity for "_ in tlediate action. The case is desperate, and supinen ess Would be criminal. After the first few days' experience In our recent inspection, we were able, with an awful precision, net only to detect the unhealthy parts of the town, but the portions of the streets, and the particular houses in streets and in courts especially liable to febrile and other disease. In hundreds of these we were able at once to describe to the sufferers all the symptoms of the disord ers w i t h w hi c h t h ey were a ffli cte d. Th e re sult of that inspection is a conviction, which nothing can ever remove or weaken, that besides all the instances in which persons ultimately recover from long sickness and consequent distress, 1,000 at least aro destroyed every Year in this town by diseases which would h ave no ex istence under complete sanitary arrangements. To rea lize in the aggregate this unneces sar y amount of mor tality, and to appreciate the concomitant evils of domestic bereavement and pecuniary embarrassment , struggling, Poverty and helpless pauperism following in its train, must appal the mind of every member of the council,' and lead to she most strenuous efforts in the application of remedial measures." They g o on to say— " That the water supply, cleansing, and paving are at Present in the hands of three distinct bodief, under the authority of as many distinct Acts of Parliament.-- ear, hear.) The sewerage, though much has been done durin g t h e l ast f ew y ea rs, is illegitimate. All these must be h armon i ous l y wor k e d together as parts of the carne li 83. st"m; and we are firmly convinced that this can only be done by placing them, and all other samiary an angernents, under the control of one public body. able or convenient to the nasty turtle-eating Corporation. —(Laughter.)—Why did not her Mejecty's Ministers resist the soup influence?—(hear, hear.) Why should that influence be allowed to prevail rgainet any measure calculated to benefit the community ? Then, with re gard to the important question of intramural inter ments. The Noble Lord was perfectly aware of the poisonous effluvia arising from the metropolitan grace yards—he was equally well aware of its dangerous effects, but ho could not encounter the opposi tion of the Church. The clergy had a vested in terest in the churchyards, and it was not con venient for Government to interfere. Did the Noble Lord believe, would the House believe, that the mascu line mind of the people of England would be content with a measure of this kind, a measure which did a little and then shirked the remainder? The public would be dissatisfied, and they had a right to be dissatisfied. The people in the towns would, more particlarly, be dissatis fied with a measure which fastened on them a new bur den for sanitary improvements, while it did not relieve them from the burden of the window-tax. He would again ask the Noble Lord to reconsider the measure. Let bis Lordship include the whole of the kingdom in one Bill. Let him not be content wit h remedying the miner grievances, but at once strike at the root of the mischief. He would bring to the mind of the Noble Lord what was now going on in the metropolis. The Noble Lord had lately received a deputation from Islington, in the centre of which densely populated district it was proposed to erect a fever hospital. Did the Noble Lord propose to take powers in the Bill to prevent the establishment of such a nuisance? Who was one of the principal promoters of this fever hospital? No less a personage than Dr. Southwood Smith, one of the Health of Towns' Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord did not propose to take powers to prevent this nuisance—he proposed nothing of the kind. The Noble Lord had told the House that he was afraid the accu mulation of filth in the metropolis and large towns would create typhus, and that the typhus might become v• neral; but hero it was proposed to introduce the evil, in its worst form, in the very heart of Islington. The Noble Lord knew that the ground had been purchased, and that the building of this fever hospital was about to be commenced; yet, with that knowledge, the Yoble Lord took no power in the Bill to prevent such an in fliction. What an inefficient, miserable measure it must be! No such a thing could by possibility happen in Paris. There they had a public body always sitting, receiving deputations anti collecting information on the state of public health. Sub-committees were appointed to superintend separate districts. Those sub-committees reported to the committee of public health, and that committee, in its turn, reported to the Minister. II any erection was deemed injurious to public health, it was at once prevented. What would be the feelings of the people of Islington with regard to the measure of .the Noble Lord? When they found that it offered no re medy to them, they would be disappointed and indig nant. He did entreat the Noble Lord to extend the scope of the Bill, to rely upon the good sense and proper feeling of the people. If he were just to them they would be just to him, and give him the best sup port he could desire.—(Cheers.) Mr. Alderman SIDNEY said he stood there in a two fold capacity. 'He was not only the representative of a borough in this kingdom, but he also, as an alderman of the city of London, was one of the Commissioners of Sewers. The Hon. Gentleman had designated him and his colleagues as the nasty turtle-eating Corporation.— (Laughter.) There might be some difference of opinion as to the meaning of the term "nasty," but there could be no mistake as to the turtle-eatin g .—(Laughter.) He would beg, however, to remind the House that the Cor portion of London was the first public body in the king dom that attempted to grapple with the great question of drainage. Every main street, and almost nil the bye lanes were thoroughly sewered.—(Hear, hear.) And it was;bnt justice to the C:ommissieners to say that they were alwaes ready to avail themselves of every known and practical improvement. The city of London would form no obstacle to the sanitary policy of the Govern ment. The Gallant Colonel who recently addressed the House (Colonel Sibthorp) had placed Billingsgate and St. Giles's in the same category. He (Alderman Sidney) was the representative of the ward of Billings gate, and he lately attended a dinner to which about 30 of the inhabitants sat down. Twenty out of the thirty informed him that they had each resided in the ward for more than forty years. Judging from these cases he should be inclined to say that Billingsgate was a remarkably healthy district. As the representative of the borough of Stafford he had been requested to give his support to any great treasure of sanitary improve ment. He told his constituents that if Government thought proper to allow the boroughs and cities to have the patronage in their own hands, he should certainly give such a measure his most hearty support.—(Laugh ter.) He heard from the Noble Lord that the Bill would leave the main superintendence in the hands of the rate-payers, and he should therefore give the mea sure his support, He thought intramural burials a great evil. lie would beseech the Noble Lord to extend the provisions of the Bill to the metropolis. He should like to see the window tax repealed; and if the gaols and markets were removed from the City the conveni ence of the public would be much increased. Mr. WYLD said that the public had already had a specimen of what legislative interference would bo in the proceedings of the Metropolitan Sewers Commission. The Commissioners, at their first meeting, ordered that a block-plan of the metropolis should be prepared, and they calcu lated that the survey and plan would cost 61,0001. It would cost more than five times that sum. If the system pursued in the metropolis were carried out in the country the measure would be enormously expensive.— (Hear, hear.) In his opinion there existed no necessity for a block-plan, inasmuch as the 6 and 7 William IV., c. 96, provided that all towns should be surveyed for the purpose of assessing the poor -rate, and all. the suburban districts had been surveyed under the Tithe Commuta tion Bill, lie hoped some means would be taken to establish a system of medical police—he considered that a most important point. Mr. MONSELL begged to ask the Noble Lord whether it was intended to bring in a similar Bill for Ireland. Lord MORPETII said that as soon as the present measure could be matured he hoped that the Secretary for Ireland would be able ' to supply a similar measure for Ireland. Mr. MONSELL—WiII the measure for Ireland be in troduced during the present session ? Lord MORPETH—I hope so. In answer to Mr. WILLIAMS, Lord MORPETH said the present measure did not exclude the metropolis as regarded the making of duce it into one of the supplemental Bills, and he was sure that if the Noble Lord did so, the public were pre pared to give him that aid which would overcome all difficulty. If it were a question of money, of clergy men's fees, so strong was the public feeling upon it, that he was sure that if the Chancellor of the Exche quer came forward with a vote upon the sulject they would sooner make that sacrifice than that the nuisance should continue in its present state. Captain PECHELL regretted that the Noble Lord had not given them some information as to the mode of electing the local commissioners in towns proposed to be affected by this measure. He agreed in what had fallen from the Noble Viscount near him (Duncan) on the subject of the window-tax. That morning he had formed one of a deputation that waited upon the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, and he had dono all in his power to extract from the Right Hon. Gentleman what his notion of a window was, but his ( fforts were unavailing.—(A laugh.) No measure could be satis factory unless it allowed light and air to be enjoyed without any interference from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. HUME said, that whilst he approved of a large portion of the Noble Lord's measure, yet it behoved the Government and the House to consider whether they were not putting the local community to a great expense for only a partial benefit if they left out of their measure the removal of the window-tax and the abelition of in• ternients in towns. The Government should be com pelled by the Home to find a substitute for the window tax, for it was a mockery to propose a measure of sani tary reform, professing to be comprehensive, without abolishing that tax. He trusted the Noble Lord (Lord Duncan) would bring a motion for reducing the window tax substantively before the House, and that he would take the sense of the House upon it. The Earl of LINCOLN said he should have awaited the .second reading of the Bill before offering any re• marks to the House, had not each Hon. Member who had spoken since the Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) sat down commenced with great laudations of the Bill, and finished by dwelling upon the omission of those points which he wished to see in it,—(Hear.) He protested against these observations, and he would state his con viction that the Noble Lord had acted most wisely in not encumbering the measure with details which would only have impeded its progress. The Noble Lord's Bill was sufficiently comprehensive already, and if it should pass it would be a most valuable contribution towards sanitary reform. It would be, in his opinion, far better to pass this measure now than to add to it the dif ficult and intricate subject of interments in towns. It did not follow, because the Government had omitted that question from the present Bill, that they were not pre pared to take it up hereafter; and he hoped they would be enabled to deal with it more effectively than their predecessors. In an abstract point of view, it was highly desirable to :remove the window-tax, but it might be that the Noble Lord was prevented from doing what he would wish in that respect by his Right Hon. Colleague near him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). That question must also be dealt with by itself, and, although the window-tax was much and justly complained of, he thought it would be desirable to accept what they could get. Ile could point out live or six important branches of sanitary reform, but he did not regret that the Noble Lord had omitted them from his Bill. Without following the Noble Lord through any details, he would simply state, that the measure now brought in appeared to him to be considerably improved upon that of last year. The local machinery was more likely to meet with the ap probation of the country than that in former Bills. It adopted a better natural area for drainage, and if it taxed those who were benefitted by it, the Bill gave them an opportunity of voting for the persons who were to ex pend their money. The Noble Lord was also inclined to confine within its legitimate bounds the central au thoz it), and there was no more intermeddling with local authorities than was necessary.—(Hear, hear.) If it should be found that the measure in these respects was an improved one, he had no doubt it would meet with a more favourable reception than former Bills on this sub ject, and it would pass the House and prove highly beneficial to the country.—(Hear.) Mr. SLANEY drew the attentio❑ of the House to the immense change in the social pursuits of the people which had taken place within the last fifty years. In the year 1790 the proportion of the labouring classes engaged in husbandry was as two to one compared with those employed in manufactures, whereas those propor tions were now exactly reversed. Plenty of inquiries had been made into the social and' sanitary condition of the people, and it was upon no light evidence that the necessity of legislation was established. He could not mention the name of Mr. Edwin Chadwick, by whom these inquiries were instituted, without paying his tri bute of admiration to that gentleman for the constant ability, industry, and intelligence with which he had directed the powers of his mind to this subject. The labouring classes of the kingdom owed Mr. Chadwick a deep debt of gratitude for his exertions in their behalf, and for having devoted his mind to the improve ment of their sanitary condition.—(hear, hear.) The reports of the Health of Towns Commissioners abun dandy showed the necessity of the measure now before the [louse. The Commissioners visited 50 large towns, and they reported that in not one of them were the arrangements for drainage, cleansing, and the supply of water at all perfect ; while 45 out of the 50 exhibited the most defective sanitary arrangements, so far as they regarded the health of the lower classes of her Majesty's subjects. It had been said the measure now before the House would cause great expense, but he, as one of the Health of Towns Commissioners, said it was a measure of economy, and that it would not only be beneficial to the poor. but a saving to the rich, by les sening the poor-rates and diminishing crime; while, in the increase of contentment and health among the hum bler classes, it would, he was certain, repay double and treble anything that might be expended in sanitary im provement.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that property should be protected, but he would ask, whether the poor man's property, which was his health, his strength, his sinews, and his power to labour, ought not to be pro tected by the laws and usages of society, as well as the property of the rich? The Commissioners found in their inquiries that the moral condition of the poor was ex actly coincident with their physical condition, and that where they were suffering under defective sanitary ar rangements they became discontented, reckless, and flew to intoxication as a short remedy for the depressing sensations they experienced. Then they were up braided for that which was not in fact their fault, and which might have been prevented. He trusted, how ever, that a new and better system was now about to prevail, and that the amelioration of the working classes would be carried out in a comprehensive_and enlightened spirit. Mr. WAKLEY said, that he had not had the good fortune to hear the opening statement of the Noble Lord, and could not, therefore, follow him into details. The Noble Lord the Member fur Falkirk had nut, how ever, paid a very high compliment to the Honse•when he iatimated that, if the Noble Lord had brought forward a very good measure, he would have had no chance of passing it. On the contrary, he (Mr. Wakley) thought that the people of England were a straightforward people, and particularly fond of boll and comprehensive measures of legislation. The proposed measure might contain a great deal of good, but, as it stood, it went short of what the public expected; and his conviction was, that, instead of being received with public appro bation, it would be received, in the towns at least., with public disapproval. The great and comprehensive measure which they had been last session led to expect had not been brought forward.—(Hear, hear.) He had been given to understand that the metropolis was excluded. Lord MORPETH—It is reserved for a separate Bill. Mr. WAKLEY—Why should it be excluded from this Bill ? And when was this separate Bill to come forth ? The public had a right to expect that where the greatest nuisances existed there the remedies should be first applied. And where was that ? It was in Lon don, in stinking London—(Laughter)—in filthy London, that sanitary measures should begin.—(Hear.) The Government left untouched the very centre of the dis ease, while the spots and blemie hes on the more distant parts of the body were to be subjected to a Ministerial dressing. It was all very well so long as easy matters only were to be managed, but when courage, energy, and comprehensiveness were required, then the Govern ment flinched. If the Noble Lord had proposed, for ex ample to interfere with the c h u rchyards, then ho knew very well that the Church would be at him, and in that respect the Government had flinched from their duty. Then, with regard to the window-tax, was it not literally preposterous to talk about ,plenty of air and light as necessary to all sanitary improvement, and then to tax both light and air? Could not the common sense of the people out of doors see the humbug that was practised? This question had been worked very much in Somerset house. The Commissioners there had a great desire to give the people plenty of air, but he would give them something to eat as well; for if they once had pure air they would require more sustenance. It was extraordinary to observe how the half and halt measures of the Government were received with grati tude by that gentle assembly; but for his own part he declared, as the representative of a large portion of the community of this metropolis, that the people had just cause to complain of the Government for not having treated this question in a manly and comprehensive seirit. It was monstrous for the Government to pretend to introduce a sanitary measure, and to allow the odious and detestable window-tax to remain unrepealed. What would the large towns say to the measure? They would say " You dare not tax the metropolis, but allow the window-tax to remain, and put additional taxes upon us?' He felt grateful to the Noble Lord for the exertions he had made in the cause of sanitary reform; but what the conntry wanted, and what he had hoped tor, was that the Noble Lerd should stand erect and bid defiance to all interested opposition. He must frankly confess that the Noble Lord had not, in his opinion, given them such a measure as the country had a right to expect. Ile hoped the Noble Lord would re confider the measure, that he would make it more comprehensive; he might rest assured that he would have the people with him. It had long been the character of the Whigs that, when they had succeeded in doing a certain amount of good, and when they had the opportunity and should have done more good, they have uniformly brought discredit on what they have done, by refusing to go forward.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had lately had representations made to him by gentlemen of the medical profession he signified his full accordance in their views but yet he had not given them the measure they had a right to expect. The medical gentlemen would not re ceive with gratitude the measure now before the House. The sanitary question was the great question of the day —i t was a question intimately connected with the welfare of the people—with their physical condition and moral improvement. It was a question perfectly well under stood by the public. He would ask why was not the metropolis included in the Bill? It was because the city of London could not be included, and therefore the metropolitan boroughs must be left out.—(Hear, hear.) It was because the measure was not thought to be agree. drains. Mr. OSBORNE begged to ask the Noble Lord when the separate Bill for the metropolis would be brought in? Lord MORPETII—A Bill for extending and consoli dating the Commission of Sewers will be introduced im mediately; and the sanitary Bill for the metropolis will be brought forward ita soon as the sanitary Commis sioners make such representations as the Government can properly act upon. , Mr. OSBORN E—That will not be this session. Lord MORPETII—I hope in the course of a few days. Mr. JOHN REYNOLDS approved of the measure so far as it went; but expressed his sorrow and deep regret that its provisions were not to be made applicable to all parts of the kingdom. lie could not see why it should not be extended to Ireland and Scotland. Whilst giving, to her Majesty's Government full credit for good inten tions to Ireland, he was not disposed to agree with those who imputed to them the habit of giving good mea sures, when they were to be tried, a trial in England first; and who charged them with, when bad measures all their bad measures a trial firstw he v;a re hie b , I ° rs notetlrai ne tried, disposedli—g(vli ng to age with Ireland.—(Loud dl au r e gh ter anti those cheers.) h e e o rs .) H said e brought such charges against the Government. But still he could not help again expressing his regret that they were not about to give this measure a good trial in Ireland. He wou ld beg leave to direct the attention of the House to the sanitary condition of the city of Dublin, than which city there was none to which the Bill might do more important service. He would read some portions of the evidence taken before Mr. Abraham Heywood, of Dublin, the Queen's Counsel, a gentleman well known to many Honourable Members in the House. Mr. Heywood had been appointed to inquire into the merits of a Bill in , and i n t en d e d for the benefit ''oalunn in the cou r s e of his inquiry n ed : of info rma ti on regarding the &:c., o f t h e c i ty , to w hi c h he (Mr. Reynolds) begged to call the attention of the Noble soh t r eef o v ,t d e. hal u rei c e ft e icgt d i eet d,ys drainage,ono mi;aeprgtiteibiniiaenn paving, Lord. (The Honourable Gentleman proceeded to read extracts from the report, and also from the evidence of Mr. Willis, showing the defective condition of the sewer age, some of the most important squares, and many streets in the city, being wholly destitute of sewers; and in many others the sewerage so extremely defective as to be almost useless. The consequences were, the contraction of habits of the utmost carelessness and filth by the lower orders of the people, the increase of fever, the establish ment of malaria, and the nursing of hosts of diseases of various descriptions in the crowded dirty back streets and bye lanes.) } wi ng read.these extracts, the Hon. Gentleman expressed is hope that the Noble Lord would take into his consideration the propriety of extending the provisions of the Bill to all parts of the kingdom. lie (Mr. Reynolds) was not going to allude to that colossus of the kingdom. the giant corporation of the city of Lon don, nor to the part adopted by that colossus towards the Noble Lord's measure. But he had to allude to the giant's sister, the corporation of h Dublin. Standing as he did as sponsor for that body, e begged to assure the Noble Lord that nothing would give them greater satis faction than the introduction of the provisions of the Bill into their city—(Hear, hear) — and he trusted that the question of their extension to them would b e t a ken into consideration by her Majesty's Cabinet. The question, too, ought to be considered in connexion with that most obnoxious impost the window - tax ; for he believed no measure for the improvement of the sanitary condition of the people would give general satisfaction unless it were accompanied by the abolition ef a tax on light and air. --(Hear, hear.) Lord EBRINGTON having for a long time taken a deep and sincere interest in the cause to which the Bill before the House related, hoped he would be excused for offering a very few observations to the House. His Noble Friend (Lord Morpetb) had already said so much on the introduction of the Bill as to render it unneerte nary for him (Lord Ebrington) to go into any defence of its details, but he could not avoid off ring some remarks upon the speeches that had been male subsequently to that of his Noble Friend. He was Ll .d the Honourable Member for Finsbury had spoken, because his speech had given an opportunity to the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds) to! show that the city he repro. seated had no objection, and was not unwilling to have a measure of sanitary Worm introduced there. But as the lion. Member for Finsbury had spoken in praise of the superior sanitary condition of Paris, he (Lord Ebring ton) begged to be allowed, as one who had more than once or twice visited that city, to say, that a city which had hardly any sowers, and until lately scarcely a water-closet,' and which abounded in cesspools, could hardly be called perfect, and was certainly not exactly to be held up as a copy to be followed by us. But, in fact, the condition of Paris was vastly worse than that of London. As to the suggestion regarding the estab lishment of fever hospitals in the suburbs, there would be great difficulty ix dealing with such a proposition. It would be necessary to carry fever patients, in convey ances, provided for them, through the streets and crowded thoroughfares, and great danger might arise hem such an intercourse. With respect to the ob jections made by the Hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Wyld) to the expense of mapping, from all the estimates that had been laid before the Government, he believed that, far from the alarming sum mentioned by that Hon. Gentleman, about 27,0001. would suffice to cover the whole expense of mapping, exclusive of engraving. Mr. HODGES approved of the Bill, and applauded the conduct of the Noble Lord in excluding the metropo lfiascfromLord ioMr.l Bao its it (t)hi p rte ro n a s' ai Ttie sinTnoneOrs:Nipnlaile,l,sdholcah the pproved of the Bill. t He express e d House h ad great receivedsa t satis faction the statement made by him, and hoped it would be ominous of success. Perhaps the only comment upon his statement with which he should be disposed to quarrel would be that which had been made by an Hon. Gentle man, the Hon. Member for Finsbury, who had not heard him.—(Laughter.) That Hon. Gentleman complained that the measure was deficient in comprehensiveness, and wished that he (Lord Morpetl ) would apply the same e rinciple of legislation to the metropolis which he was about to apply to all other parts of the country. But, after all, taking into account all that was being done in the metropolis, he (Lord Morpeth) believed that London would be, after all, the first city in the progress of sanitary reform, and would prove a model of peace don in it. With regard to tho suggestion of establishing fever hospitals in the outlets, it would receive the most serious attention from the Government; but the trans ference of fever patients would be certainly attended with serious difficulty. But it would hardly have been wise in the Government to have at tempted to introduce into that measure such arrangements as would have opened up the large and extensive question of the establishment of cemeteries—a subject that required great deliberation and caution. But under the now re gulation power would be given to the central board to prevent for the future any corpses from being interred within the walls of churches, and any fresh interment from taking place within those burial-grounds that wore declared injurious to the health of the neighbourhood. No interments could take place in those without the special permission of the board. Power would also be taken to provide houses for the reception of the dead previously to inter ment, by which those harassing and distressing scenes which had so frequently taken place amongst the poor would be prevented. He admitted that the measure was not and could not be deemed a perfect one, for the Go. vernment was amenable to that insuperable law which prevented the possibility of everything desirable being done at once.—(llear, hear.) But if they did not make a beginning by doing some good thing at once, the entire good that was so much desired could never be done at all.—(Hear, hear.) Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, and Lord MORPETH named Lord John Russell, Sir George Grey, and the Attorney-General, as the Noble and Hon. and Learned Members to whose care it was to be entrusted. The Bill was subsequently introduced by the Noble Lord, and road a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday, the 18th inst. ABINGDON ELECTION. The SPEAKER announced that it was not intended to proceed with the petition against the return of Sir F. Thesiger for the borough of Abingdon. REMOVAL OF THE POOR. Mr. BAINES moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the proceedure in respect of orders for the re moval of the poor in England and Wales, and appeal therefrom. What he proposed was, that instead of the examinations being sent by the removing parishes, there should be sent a statement of the grounds of removal on the one side, and cf appeal on the other; the sessions having the power of amending that statement so that any technical errors might be corrected. COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH CHINA. Mr. CARDWELL rose to bring under the notice of the House the report of the Select Committee appointed in 1847, to take into consideration the present state of our commercial relations with China. The anticipations which had been formed of extended intercourse with the East, and of its affording fresh outlets for the great and increasing manufacturing power of this country, had not been fulfilled, although, in some respects, our trade with China appeared to justify them. In 1827 our exports to China amounted to nearly 610.0001.; in 1843 they had grown to nearly 1,500,000/4 and in 1845 to 2,394,000/. Nevertheless, when, fifteen years ago, the trade of the Eastern empire was opened to competition, we did venture to believe, that, with a population of upwards of 300,000,000, our export trade would have by this time greatly exceeded 2,400,000/. Our anticipations had not been realised. Such as the trade with China had been, however, a very large portion of it had fallen to Great Britain ; and it was most important to our do mestic interests that we should, as far as possible, en courage and increase it. The return of the imports of China in 1845 was 20,000,000 dollars, of which no less than 16,000,000 were imported in British ships, neatly 3,000,000 in American ships, and the remainder in ships of all the rest of the world. There was, besides, a very large trade in opium, the greater part of which belonged to dependencies of this country, giving an additional sum of 23,000,000 of dollars ; so that, out of a trade amounting to 43,000,000 dollars, scarcely 4,000,000 be longed to other than this country. In 1843 there was a remarkable increase in our trade with China contrasted with previous years, and in 1845 a still greater. But the Committee stated in the first page of their report, that that increase of trade had been attended with no corresponding benefit to England, inasmuch as it had been carried on at a loss of from 30 to 40 per cent. They found that, notwithstanding that loss, the trado;had gone on increasing for three or four years. The ex planation was this: the trade was first in the bands of the British merchants, who, not finding it remunerative, abandoned it. Then it was taken up by the British ma nufacturers, in their anxiety to find an outlet for their increased produce. Their attempt being also unsuccess ful, it was taken up by the natives of China themselves, for the purpose of finding a market for their own pro duce, but they too found it unremunerative. It there fore followed that unless we were able to proceed in another direction, our trade with China must be con. tracted to those limits only which would prove remune rative. The returns for our merchandise were comprised in the three principal articles of silver, silk, and tee— the annual export of silver being 2,000,0001. The Bri tish Consul, writing in April, 1847, said, " how long the Chinese will be able to sustain this continual drain of 2,000,000/. of precious metal, it is impossible to say; but it is a wel-established fact that the ex port of tea to England cannot be increased under the present system of duties ; and unless a new opening be found for a larger amount of Chinese exports to our markets, a gradual reduction must take place either in the quantity or the prices of our goods in China. It is beyond calculation to what extent the Chinese would purchase our woollens and cottons if we would take their produce in return." This was fully confirmed by Sir J. Davis, who said that the import trade of China depended wholly upon their export trade ; that conse quently the increase of their exports would create a corresponding increase in their imports. Now it was owing to the rate of duties levied by us on tea which prevented our taking a larger quantity of that article— duties amounting on the average to upwards of 200 per cent. upon the cost price. He had been informed of a cheap tea having been purchased in Liverpool, and which ultimately went for the use of a poor-house in Cork, upon which the duty amounted to 1,000 per cent. on the price. But to the consumer it made a still greater difference than the mere amount of the duty, because the greater the duty the greater the capital re quired ; and as there must be a profit on capital, it was not surprising to fold a witness telling the Committee that a duty of 2s. 2d. to the revenue was an addition to the consumer of 2s. 9d. on the price of the tea. So that, in a very large proportion of instances, the profit alone upon the duty would exceed the cost of the tea. Let the House observe who were next to us in the trade—the Americans, who levied no duty upon tea, while we had a duty varying from 200 to the exceptional cases of 1,000 per cent. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted the commercial circular of Holmshed and Ketley, of Liverpool, dated Dec. 31, 1847, showing that, while our cotton trade with China had decreased by about one thhaidr d i n b n e r t e w a e e d n , 1 a B n 3 d 7 a w a a d s I s B t 4 il 6 l , i n t n li r a e t a s o i f n g t h . e ItUnited o S t t s . portance to watch with vigilance how far we could supply the markets of China in return for their exports. The Committee stated that the revenue we derived in 1846 of 5,110,0001. could not be permanently relied on, as the trade was not remunerative to the importer. In 1842 it barely exceeded 4,000,0001; in 1843 it did not reach 4,500,000/.; and in 1847 he had reason to believe that it would barely reach 5,000,000/.; although in 1846 it had been upwards of that amount. Our exports of cotton cloths in 1844 was 1,460,0001.; in 1845, 1,540,0001.; and in 1846 they fell to 940,0001., and in 1847 to 888,0001. He found, with regard to shipments of cotton cloth from Liverpool to China, in the year 1845, they had amounted to 112,000,000 yards; in 1846, they fill to 76,000,000 yards; and in 1847 they had come dowa to 56,000,0 00 yards, being just one-half of what they bad been in the year 1845. If such had been the case, it followed that this diminution of exports bad led to a diminution of imports, and that consequently the revenue has dimi nished. Therefore it was that while the Committee had reported that so important an item of revenue could not be lightly dealt with, they reported that they bad the strongest reason to believe that the then exist ing amount of revenue from this source could not per manently be expected. The Committee then had turned its attention to the consideration of what would be the times,un dshsca. change ac b no e gn e es n ui nfmuerd- the effect of any change in the - amount of du h t . y, a_ d on this point some statistics and calculations, w ich shored the changes in prices which bad been effected by an page 443 of these . al terationnibe d , andof the we r e duties ien foundib e r at reports. From these statistics it appeared that in 1 82 y ln 1/84 the duty was the duty on tea was at the rate of e 6 per cent , and antadthbaetentimaebnutht 06,0nounoboe.rb reduced to 12/. 10s. per cent., and the quantity consumed rose to 10,000,0001 b. That duty continued up to 1795, quoted this for the purpose of showing . that there existed when the consumption had riscaonfiutol3c2oiloi.,ooo,ooolb. He some reason to believe that, existing duty, the consumption would increase and the revenue thereby be kept up. As to the quantities of tea consumed, be found, in the evidence taken before the Committee and annexed to their report, that in families where expense was not an object the average might be taken at 121 b. per head. In the workhou s e it was 311 b. per head. To emigrants 41b. 3oz. per head was allowed. In the navy it was 41b. 4oz. per head, besides cocoa. In Australia there was reason to believe the consumption was exceedingly large, being at the rate of Sib. or 91h. venue, it would in the end be made up by an in per head; while in the United Kingdom the average was creased consumption of tea.—(Hear, hear.) This was only about lib. loz. per head, being about one half of wesgeot only true of tea, but el other articles ; the the ordinery allowancegranted is the workhouses. Those same argument had been applied to wine, and also to who wishe d the duty to b ‘ reduced had contended that the a...l)sec° ; and it was true of all articles on which a reduction ought to be from 2s. Lad. to to 1 s., sind they stated high duty was imposed. As to the increased consump that if the same money now spent on tea should be tion of tea diminishing the consumption of spirits, spent when the duty was reduced to Is., that duty on he was not prepared to offer an opinion ; but he must 24,000,0001b5. would yield 1,200,000/., which, added to say that there was no article of which he would more the existing amount yielded to the revenue, viz , gladly see the consumption reduced than of spirits, pro -1,200,0001., would give in the first year of the reduction vided the revenue was made up from other sources ; and 3,500,0001. from the article of tea. But then if 32,000 probably an increased consumption of tea might have tens of sugar was taken as the additional supply neces- some influence in that respect. But he feared that if sary for the additional consumption of tea, taking that any such reduction were made fresh taxes must of neces quantity at a duty of 145., it would yield about 45.5,000/., sity be imposed to make up the immediate deficiency ; thus showing the total revenue to be expected from the for if, in the article of sugar, for instance, the increased tea and sugar to umount to about 3,962,000/. Another consumption were set off against the reduction of duty, point had been brought under the notice of the Com- he feared there would be, for some years, a considerable mittee, which, however, he (Mr. Cardwell) did not take loss. The Hon. Gentleman who had seconded this mo ms the basis of any computation, because it would give a don was in favour of an ad valorem duty on tea; but the result more sanguine than he should venture to en- Committee had recommended a uniform duty of a shil courage. It had, however, been stated in • vidence that ling a round ; and he believed the advantages were in 1844 a change had taken place in the Isle of Man in decidedly on the side of a fixed uniform duty.—(hear, the mode of collecting the duty there levied on tea, hear, and " Very low.") But it was quite impossible the effect of which had been (as the Committee were to reduce the duty to anything like the amount recom told) to diminish the cost of that article by Is. 61, per mended by the Committee without risking some two lb. In 1844 the consumption there was 75,0001b5., and trillions of revenue ; and that ens a risk not very in 1546, it had risen to 138,0001b5. Whirs he (Mr. likely to be incurred just now. The lion. Member for Cardwell) admitted that it would have been rash on the Liverpool had said that, on a former occasion, the dis part of the Committee to have mule this the basis of tressed state of the country had been made the ground their computation of the profitable increase ef con• far a considerable reduction of taxation ; but he should sumption in the whole of the United Kingdom, remember that that reduction had been accompanied by yet he was of opinion that he was bound not to close the the imposition of the income-tax. In like manner, if case without thus calling attention to the success in the they were new to repeal the window duty. from which operation of a change is tbc duty on the same article. 1,700,0001. was derived, cr any other tax vdlicli brought But he might be asked where was the money - -e here in a considerable revenue, it could only be done by the the resources to come from which the population of this imposition of some other tax, which would yield at least country were to spend in sugar to be used with the in- as great an amount ; and whether the gentlemen who creased consumption of tea ? His answer was, that if advocated these reductions would cheer:ldly submit to this country imported 24,000,0001105. additional of tea an addition to the income-tax or to the property-tax he there would be an addition to the exports of 1,000.0001., very much doubted.—(Hear, and a laugh.) On this of which two-thirds would be spent in the wages of the subject it would be most improper in him to anticipate artisans of England, and this addition would go to their the statement which the Noble Lord at the head of the other means of purchasing tea and sugar. If, then, such Government would give in ten days' time respecting the a change stimulated industry, it would add to the ins general finances of the country. lie should therefore ports and exports and increase the demand for other best discharge his duty by not saying another word on articles which constitute the comforts of the the part of this question which related to revenue. To working classes, and which contribute to the the motion of the Hon. Gentleman he had not the Treasury a revenue of which the Chancellor of the slightest objection.—(Hear.) Exchequer would feel the advantages. But then the Lord G. BENTINCK said the House had had some Committee had been teld by some of the witnesses who little experience in the mode now proposed of improve had been examined (and the same objection had been ing the revenue, namely, by " removing the burdens frequently raised), that the supply of tea might be ea- from the springs of industry." In 1838 the postage had petted to fall short, and that an increased demand for been reduced to a penny ; and now, after a lapse of ten England might raise the price of the article in China; years, the revenue from the Post-office, then 1,800,0001., and that the result would be that the value being thus was but half that amount.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. made higher here, the public would not have the benefit Member for Liverpool and his friends had taken off the of the reduction of duty. On that point, however, the duties from timber, cotton, core, silk, and brandy, Committee had examined several witnesses at great thereby making a present of so much of our revenue to length, as would be seen by a reference to the report. foreign nations.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord G. Bentinck) They had had the advantage of examining Mr. Parkor,who had recommended, two years ago, that our relations had spent some time in China on a mission of a different with China should be cultivated. In the United States, character, and who was well acquainted with that with their 20,000,000 of inhabitants, only 19,900,000 country; they had also examined the Honourable lbs. of tea were annually consumed, although it was sub- Members for Ashburton, for South Lancashire (Mr. W. *tea to no duty ; and the lion. Member for Liverpool Brown), and for Dartmouth (Mr. %ioffatt), and many was therefore a little sanguine in calculating the in others of great experience, and all these witnesses creased consumption of tea, with a reduction of Is. 2d. stated that they had not the slightest fear that any per lb. in the duty, at 22000,000 of pounds. Two demand made by this country in China for the article }ears ago, when everybody appeared to be free of tea would tend to cause anything like a scarcity trade mad, Mr. Glyn and the directors of the North of supply. On the contrary, the Committee had Western Railway Company were induced to try the ex been told that though the enormous population of China periment of reducing their tariff ; and the consequence were themselves great consumers, and that as they was a reduction in the shareholders' dividends from 10 to would take commodities which this country could fur- 8 per cent. ; while the lion. Gentleman near him (Mr nish, the small additional drain the change would cause Hudson) had strongly resisted the innovation on the could not possibly increase the price of tea, because the Midland line, and their dividends were still undi land was abundant, the facility of cultivation was great. ininished.—(Hear, hear.) He could not support the Hon. Another matter had arisen before the Committee, about Member for Liverpool. which some little was said. On that matter the Com- Mr. MOFFATI' thanked the Hon. Gentleman the mittee had the advantage of the presence of the lion. Member for Liverpool for the able and lucid manner in Member for Sheffield (elle Parker), who watched the which he introduced this subject. He did not think the proceedings with a view to ascertain how far a diminu- Noble Lord who had just spoken had succeeded in tion of the tea duties would injure the revenue, by lead- showing that a loss of revenue must necessarily follow, ing to a diminution in the consumption of spirits. The from a reduction of duty. The Post office revenue was llonourable Member had moved for and obtained within five per cent, of what it was before the reduce. a return, which showed that the population of the don took place, great as that reduction was.—(Hear, United Kingdom, amounting to 26,700,000, con- hear.) He thought that as a matter of justice to the► sumed annually 24,000,000 gallons of spirits; and Chinese, and of expediency towards themselves, a re that in Scotland, in 1845, there were entered for ductiou of the duties on tea ought to be made. He diet home consumption, 6,500,000 gallons of spirits for not think with the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancel+ a population of 2,600,000. In fact, the consump- lor of the Exchequer) that there would be anything like a. tion of spirits in the whole of the United Kingdom, loss of 2,000,0001. in the revenue.—(Hear, hear.) was shown to be 24,000,000 gallons. He (Mr. Card- Mr. W. BROWN said that he had investigated the. well) did not know why the reduction of the tea duties question of the reduction of duties since 1667, and her would diminish the produce to the Exchequer of the found that up to the present time a reduction fof dntr duty on spirits; but with all rmpset for the Exchequer, had been followed by increased consumption. Thai he should certainly be, pleased it, by a reduction of the question , then , w a s, how much the duty ought to be. tea duties, those arising from spirits should fall eff, and reduced, so that the revenue might not suffer? He in such an event lie should be most ready to support the was of opinion that if there was a reduction of revenue Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Committee of Ways from a reduction of tho duty on tea, it could be made and Means in imposing a duty almost upon any other up from other rources. For instance, he could not see commodity, to supply the deficiency in the spirit duties. atm reason why the legacy duty which was paid on —(Flean) Ile begged now to ask whether the House personal property should not be paid likewise on real or the country was satisfied with the existing trade with property.—(dear, hear;) When the Noble Lord spoke China? China had a population of 300,000,000, ar.d df the consutnption of tea in America as being only yet the tra lo of Great Britain with leer had never ex 20,000,0001bm. amongst a population of 20,000,000, he ceeded 2,000,000/. of annual exports. Why was that ? eirget to mention (what was most material) that Was it from the want of any sagacity on the part of 5 000,000 of that population did not consume any tea. the Chinese—was it from any want of commercial lie did nut think that the revenue would ultimately principle among them? On the contrary, the Chinese suffer by a judicious reduction of the duties on tea, and nation was equally distinguished for its industry ant considering the e fleet which such a measure must pro the desire to turn that industry to the best account. duce in a moral point of view, he was of opinion that it Was it then that the Chinaman having strange notions was one which Government ought to adopt.—(Hear.) of civilisation and a peculiar contempt for the foreign Mr. MASTERMAN thought that great credit was barbarian, had raised some obstacles in the way of inter- due to the Hon. Member for Liverpool for bringing this course between the two nations? There had been a day question tinder the notice of the House and the country. when apprehemions of that kind had been seriously lie was aware of the difficulties attending an ad valorem entertained, and fifteen years ago it had been said that system of duties with respect to tea, but ho thought that such practices would prevail, but in 1844 a treaty had if those difficulties could in any way be got over, that been concluded with them, by which British manufac- such a system would effect all that was desirable, namely, tures were imported by them at duties varying from 5 give the people the benefit of cheap tea, without injur to 10 per cent.--ea that the obstacles to intercourse had ing the revenue. But if the Chancellor of the Exchequer not been created by the uncivilised, but by the civilised had any revenue to spare—(Laughter)—he could not —not by the barbarous, but by the refined. By the evi- possibly select a more fitting article than tea on which donee of the British Consul, corroborated by the British to effect a reduction —(hear.) Governor, there existed but one limit to the trade be- Mr. BROTHERTON thought there could be only tween the two nations, and that limit arose from one opinion as to the propriety of reducing the duty, the amount of duty at which this country admitted provided the poor were to get the benefit of such a re- Chinese exports.—(clear, hear.) From recent ae- &teflon. In the year 1815 the consumption of tea counts it appeared the Chinese had become apt on in this country was 19,000,0001b5., which the subject of reciprocal protection, and that although cost 3,500,0001. ; in 184 G, the consumption was they were bound by treaty from charging higher rates 46,000,0001 W., which cost 3,000,0001., that was of duty than those he had stated at any port of import, to say they gave 500,0001. less for 46,000,0001b5. of tea still he believed that the Chinese exporter had been the in 184 G than they gave for 19,000,0001b5. in 1815. That medium of communication between the British tariff and showed a very great increase of consumption; and if the his own Government, and that though they could not duty was reduced Is. he thought it reasonable to expect lay on British goods any increase of duties at the port that the consumption would be doubled. That would of import, they had increased the transit and inland cause a reduction in the consumption of spirits, which ho duties, making them available to their revenues, and he considered to be a great benefit. But if a reduction of feared that if this state of things lor.g continued, the un duty were made, he was afraid it would increase the civilised Chinaman would be found to be an apt scholar price in China, and that the merchant would increase in the school of prohibitory ditties, and that a hostile the pr ice at home, as in the case of coffee, and that the tariff' would be established in China which this country profits would be divided between the Chinese and the would have no p :wer to meet.—(hear. hear.) Looking merchants, leaving the poor little or no benefit from the to the near approach of the financial statement, he (Mr reduction.—(Hear, hear.) If increased imports of tea Cardwell) had felt it clue to the Committee and to their had the effect of =Ling an exportation of British menu- Chairman (Led Sandon, now the Earl of harrow by). ; t enures, that would be an advantage. He was afraid, whose mantle had in some degree fallen upon Idle that however, that this would only increase the import of the report should not be permitted to slumber.— 'Team into China, which could not be too much depre (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, and as a matter of form,rates.—(!lear, hear.) If the poor were to have the he begged to move for a return of the reports hem fit of cheap tea, villy not impose an ad valorem duty and correspondence received on the subject of duties from upon it? the Governor and the Consul in China (Hear, hear.) Dr. 110 WRING said, that if his Honourable Friend Mr. EW AR r seconded the motion, and said he waited had been a member of the Committee on this subject, be with anxiety to 1: arn what course her Maj, sty's Govern would be convinced that the imposition of an ad valorem ment intended to adopt both with the tea and the tobacco duty on teas was altogether impracticable.—(Hear, hear.) duties. The present tea duties grievously oppressed the From the extensive trade which this country almost poor of this country. While the rich maids tea was exclusively carriedi en with China it would derive great about 100 per cent., that on the inferior kinds was about advantage from a reduction of the duty on teas. The 350 per cent. Mr. Pitt had not imposed the tea duties in reason why other countries failed in their operations 1796 with that !view ; by means of an ad - valorem duty with China was, that there was no demand there for he almost exempted the inferior kinds of tea. The duty their home productions. His Honourable Friend was on coffee had been recently reduced from Is. to 4,1. per mistaken in supposing that the opium t rade was paid for pound, and that on cocoa from ls. to 2 d.; the cense - in t ea. On the contrar y , there was no article 1T quence was that the consumption of the former had in - was more readil y p aid for in syeee silve r saying opium. in long period the consumption of tea hail only increased [here was any smuggling ofteale set them by China f 130 per cent. In Guernsey and other places the an n ua l The y ou g ht to follorowt h s e y s e stem m amp of tariffs.—(Hear.) consumption of tea was about four pounds per hea d itself in laddeorpmdenn SIDNEY thought there was a great g a —a proof of how great an increase in t he con- . sumption might be anticipated from a reduction in the tall i cy . in the argument with respect to the expected in duty. The time was come when these duties must be cre ase in l the consumption of tea from a reduction of the considered, and when a comprehensive vi ew ou g ht to be duty. n 1801 the consumption per head was Ilb. 30z., taken of the Excise duties. There should be a general the average price being then 4s, to ss. per lb. In 1846, revision of our whole taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He was when the price of tea was not more than one-third of prepared to throw a larger burden on accumulated pro• what it was in 1801, the consumption per head was only perty, but not on incomes.—(Hear, hear.) The result [lb. 10oz.—(Bear, hear.) In a commercial point of view, of this would be a considerable relief to the trading and he admitted that a reduction of the duty would be a mat manufacturing interests, and the springs of industry ter of good policy. If there was an increase in the con would thus be strongthened. — (Hea r, hear.) sumption of tea to the extent of 24,000,0001b5., the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that quantity consumed per head would be 21bs. 7oz. Now no apology was necessary from the Hon. Gentleman op. ne believed they must live for half a century before the posite for introducing this subject. At the same time he people of this country could be persuaded to consume tea ought not to argue tees strongly on the present depressed to that amount.—(Hear.) state of the trade with C hina ; for his own statements Mr. WILSON said that the increase of' consumption sufficiently accounted for it. On the opening of the was expected to arise from the demands of the poor, and trade, the merchants had eagerly engaged in it, and not from the rich, to whom price was not an object. after carrying it on for a short time had found it a In Ireland particularly a large increase of consumption very losing concern. That was almost universally might be expected. lie believed that a mode might be the case on the opening of any new trade. It list devised for reducing the duty without diminishing the been notoriously time case on die opening of revenue. In 1546 the consumption of tea was the trade with the States of ,South America. The 46,700,0001b5. In 1847, in consequence of manufactur whole mercantile world at once engaged in it, and ing distress, the consumption had fallen to 45,500,0001b5. the South American markets were consequent!} and in 1848 he did not think the Chancellor of the glutted. The same had occurred with China. Many Exchequer could calculate on a greater consumption merchants had consequently found the trade a losing than 44,000,0001b5. This showed that there was 8n conce rn, and had given it up. In the same way the increase or decrease of consumption according to the manufacturers had suffered, and had teen deterred from prosperity of the country. In 1831 the consumption sending more of their fabrics to that market. The fact teas 31 . 000 ,° 001 h5. , the price being io.l. rice there it H e 6d. believed, be mnatedhe was, the Chinese markets had been glutted in the first was last year. Under that reduction of pric o e ib t s e instance with time qu ant it y o f manu f ac t ure d goods sent sin increased consumption of 15,000,00. )ass . o w an it d w h a i s t without a that a from this country; and however lamentable might be seemed that this increase had gone on pa b r believe that a ess r or deairaall the check which the trade had suffered, it was the natu- reduction of price. Now he did not ral result of the excessive exports in the first instance. entire abolition of these duties snec however, ay poor was tol d a He considered that more stress had been laid on an tde in the first instance. atrade diminution of the importations of China in one particu• reduction from 2s. 2kd. to:is. firstmight,ear. lag year than was right, looking at the permanent state any failing off even- in the acquanted ) with of tea sold to the of the trade in that country. In 1843, there was an by those praeticall)' portionlb. If they took 4.5. as a fair average addition of about half a million to the imports, which that the largest had increased from a million sterling in the preceding tea sold at 4s. a lh d . d _w ed ith a fair profit. to it Is. 6d. duty, year, to about a million and a half. In 1844, the' price of this t t e; e in so b ld on a d t , 3 a i n . and added increased to 2,300,000/.; and, in 1845, to nearly the tea a g in tl l i g a h t the b same amount of money would be spent Cal -2,4oo,oooL;—more than double the amount of 1842. 2 in tea under those prices It was hardly likely that all this would be taken ea u that an increasedsale was spent at present, he off at once.; and if, in the subsequent year, there roundßb a revenue of nearly foll o r of millions only• 15, a o on O ud O n , O te oo ha vi l 'o f u t l o l which , was to be added the increased had been a considerable falling di under this 4 received head, it was only what might have ben expected from or the duty on the additional previous experience. With regard to the general trade 'or ear Bill of sugar consumed. lim To the 1846 he thought the reduction of the tea he concurred in almost every position which elsd o l htn; 1 . ~ , tides ought to he considered a necessary complement. Member for Liverpool had laid down.— (Hear.) L i not the least doubt that, by diminishing the duty on tea, Mr. HUDSON was very glad to find that the Chancellor the consumption would be greatly extended, and that, in d' the Exchequer was not to be seduced by this sort of ape culative argument. Ile was glad he had at last found out course of titne, the revenue lost by lowering the dut) the leastdoubt chat a reduction of duty was not always followed by would b© made up, Again, he had t must ent' 1 ' . that the quantity of goods sent to China . entire l 3 :in increased consumption, or a decrease of price. He which could be obtained from was also glad to find the Member for Salford retracting depend on the returns . . tea at that country, and that, by admitting a low rate o: his free trade principles.—("Hear, hear," from the duty, our exports t o China would be considerably ex- c ountry party.) It was a satisfactory indication that i. tended, to the manifest benefit of the consumers, mane these principles were not so popular among the manu facturers, and ship-owners of this country ; also, the , acturers as they were once supposed to be. As that though considerable loss aright be entailed on the re. 4 Lion. Member truly said, the profit arising froth these Afton.. I a