The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS, AUGUST 17. (Gintinued from our First Edition of yesterday and which ap peared in a Second Edition last night.) CRUELTY TO ANIMALS BILL. The House then went into Committee on the above Bill, on the motion of Mr. PEASE. Clauses Sup ioliwere agreed to without amendment. The other clauses as amended having been agreed to, the Chair man was about to leave the Chair, when Mr. RUTH VEN rose and said—l rise to move the further con sideration of this Report this day six months.—( Laughter. ) Mr. PRYME (the Chairman)—The Hon. Member cannot propose that motion now, but he will have an opportunity of doing so, if he thinks proper, when the Report is brought up. I now leave the Chair. Mr. RUTHVEN—No, no.—( Laughter. ) Mr. 1 3 41-ME then left the Chair, and the SPEAKEit resumed his seat. Mr. RUTH YEN—The Hon. Member has said that the question is carried when it is not. Ido not think it is quite regular to put the question and he making a joke of it that way.—( Order, order. ) Mr. PRYME (seriously)—Mr. Speaker, I made no joke of it.—( Great laughter.) I did it in the usual form. Sir F. TRENCH had come down to the House for the purpose of making an observation or two upon the Bill brought in by the Hon. Member for Sheffield ( Mr. Buckingham), and he was surpri!ed to find it passed over in silence. Mr. BUCKING HAM informed the Hon. Member that the Bill had been disposed of before his arrival. He intended, however, next Session, to introduce another to the same effect. PUBLIC CHARITIES. Mr. WILK S moved the House go into Committee on the Public Charities Bill. Dr. BOWRING hoped the Bill would not be pressed on. Mr. WARBURTON gave the Hon. Member (Mr. Wilks) notice that he should oppose the motion for the Speaker leaving the Chair. Mr. WILK S hoped the Hon. Member would give some reason for adopting such a course. Mr. WARBURTON said, had the worthy Alderman (Mr. Wood) been present, he should have at once proposed the postponement of the Committee to that day six months, but he thought it would be an uncourteous proceeding in his ab sence. Mr. TOOKE declared that he had heard Mr. Alderman Wood say that he did not wish to press this Bill.—(Hear.) It was understood that the Motion for going into Commit tee was postponed till Thursday. The Prisons Regulation Bill was read a third time and passed. SPECIAL CONSTABLES' BILL. The Special Constables' Bill went through Committee, the Report was brought up by Mr. BERNAL, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. ST. MARGARET'S RECTORY BILL. _ _ On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the St. Mar garet's Rectory Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. CHARITY COMMISSION BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought up the Report on the Charity Commission Bill, which was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. BANKRUPTS' ESTATE BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved that the House agree to the Lords' amendments on this Bill. After some observations from Mr. Tooke, the Solicitor-Ge neral, Mr. Warburton, and Mr. Pryme, Mr. WARBURTON proposed a verbal amendment to the clause, which was then put and agreed to. On the next clause being read, Mr. TOOKE would again repeat the objections he had urged, to giving the power of fine and imprisonment to two additional Commissioners, instead of referring the case of con tempt to the Court of Review, which being a superior Court was not likely to be influenced in its adjudication by the feel ings of those more immediately interested. He should take the sense of the House upon the question, as he thought it an innovation, on the liberty of the subject. Mr. WARBURTON differed from the Hon. Member as to the clause being an innovation on the liberty of the subject, and would support the clause. Mr. Serjeant WILDE thought some misapprehension existed upon what really was a contempt of Court. It would be most improper to limit the power of the Commissioners to what took place in the hearing of the Court. Contempt of Court of a very aggravated nature might occur without the parties being in the immediate neighbourhood of it, and it would be most unwise to limit the power of the Commis sioners in such cases. Mr. WIL KS observed that constructive contempts were growing into an evil, which should be met and suppressed. He thought there was nothing objectionable in the powers granted by the clause. The other clauses were then put and agreed to. TONNAGE ADMEASUREMENT BILL. On the motion of Mr. P. THOMPSON, the Tonnage Ad measurement Bill was read a third time and passed. CUSTOMS ACTS. Mr. BERNAL brought up the Report of the Committee on the Customs Acts Bill. TIMBER DUTIES BILL. On the motion of Mr. P. THOMPSON, this Bill went through Committee, and was read a third time. SPIRIT LICENSES BILL. On the motion of Mr. F. BARING, this Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. CLERK OF THE CROWN BILL. On the motion of Mr. BARING this Bill was committed. INSOLVENT DEBTORS' FUND BILL. On the motion of the same HON. GENTLEMAN this Bill was read a second time ; as was also the Exchequer Bills Bill. FORGERIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE this Bill was read a second time; as was also the Court of Exchequer (Scotland) Bill. LARCENIES (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion that the Report be brought up, Mr. G. F. YOUNG rose and said he wished to put a ques tion to the President of the Board of Trade. He had en deavoured to be in the House when the Tonnage Admeasure ment Bill was read a third time, and had left the York Com mittee several times for that purpose. He had missed it how ever, and he now wished to ask whether the Right Hon. Gen tleman had any objection to laying on the table the Report of the Committee on which this Bill was founded? Mr. P. THOMPSON—The Report w•as already on the table of the House. It had been laid on the table last year, and this Bill was the same as the one that had been postponed last year. Mr. YOUNG—Then will the Right Hon. Gentleman allow it to be printed ? From personal trial, he found it impossible to carry into effect the provisions of the Bill that bad been carried through the House. The Report, we believe, was ordered to be printed, and the Report of the Larcenies (Ireland) Bill was brought up. SHERIFFS' (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. O'LOGHLEN, on moving that the Report be brought up, took occasion to refer to a certain clause in the Bill, giving compensation (as we understood) to the Chief Re membrancer, Mr. Blake. The Hon. and Learned Gentlema .i read a letter; but from the low tone of voice in which he spoke, we found it impossible to catch the meaning of it. We believe, however, it was a letter from Mr. Blake, declining to accept of any compensation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that the letter was in the highest degree creditable to Mr. Blake, and it was gratifying to him to have that opportunity of so expressing his opinion. It got rid of a great difficulty in the way of the Bill, and would prevent inconvenience to the public service. Lord MORPETH said, that the intention expressed by Mr. Blake in this letter was precisely similar to what he had formerly expressed. Mr. JACKSON bore test;nony to the character, capa bilities, and talents of Mr. - Blake. Lord M 0 RPETH bro.,,ght up the Report. CONSTABLIL:tRY FORCE.—IRELAND. The House then went into Committee on the Constabulary Force in Ireland Colonel PE r.IOE VAL could not help rising to express his unqualified approbation at the greater portion of the details of this Bill. [At tills declaration considerable surprise was manifested in the countenances of the Members, both on the Ministerial and Opposition benches. An Hon. Member on the latter re min•led the Speaker of what he had just said.] Colonel PE RC E VA L—(after a pause)—Disapprobation I - meant.—(Laughter.) I have made a very great mistake, and and I do not wonder at the Noble Lord (Morpeth) looking at me so very hard.—( Loud laughter.) He should like to know on what grounds the Government at tempted to degrade the unpaid and independent niagi , . Ireland by d e p r i v i ng t h em o f t h e power of select , .racy of —a duty for which no men were more cow- he pollee etent betr4, men of property, and interested in the per,-.,e an d e -being of the. country? Why should these me:„ v:t. aside, and thht power transferred to some creatures of the Lord Lieutenant? Ac cording to the present "ssill, they were to have inspectors for each county, and sivr,g, paymasters. He admitted one-half of the expense of that was to be paid out of th e conso lid ate d funhered, but ether half was to be paid by th e county. Again, t to be one inspector, not less than four sub-inspectors, and r...0t less than six chief constables, or more thanl 8. At present tl-,4 h a d only four chief constables, and one inspector who acted AS paymaster. He challenged the Noble Lord to state any ground for this measure, which would have the effect of in :Meting double the present expence on all the counties io Ireland. In his opinion the Bill was absurd throughout i the whole control was given to the Lord-Lieutenant, and hr might exercise the capricious authority that was given him as he chose. There was an oath appended to the which he 'wished to know from the Noble Lord whethr:„.it intended to operate in aid o f that oppression. which had was hitherto been exercised towards OranT:dnen, and whether all men belonging to Orange si l.:aeties were to be called upon to take that oath befe-,c they entered into the police ? H e !wished tom know ;'nether that o a th was intended as a trap t o catch th, - .11 order that they mi g ht b e pun i shed as the men at Ross - 4er , ? I:urd MORPETH t h oug h t w i t h t h e Hon. and Gallant I :iiember, that second thoughts were generally best; but he considered that the Hon. and Gallant Member had taken a most erroneous course when he altered his first impression in lavour of the Bill. The Honourable and Gallant Member had asked whether his Majesty's Government intended by this Bill to pass any slur upon the general body of the magistracy and the police force in Ireland. He begged to assure the Hon. and Gallant Member that his Majesty's Government bad no ,!such intention or mot i ve , nor h a d t h ey brought for ward the Bill with any such design. He admitted the yo lice force of Ireland to be on the whole a valuable institution, contributing largely to the public peace and welfare; but there 1 • teas a general want of control in its rn , ..t.narOm'ent, ai.d there were many imperfections ebeut it Which, it brought un der strict control, would make it much more serviceable. With respect to the Magistrates, his Majesty's Government, in doing wlsat they had done by the present Bill, were only follewiegt an example which in many counties had been set by the Nla,gistrates themselves, who had voluntarily resigned 1 their power. believing that it would be exercised much mot I to the public good by the highett 510 en'Ost responsible quarter—the Government of thf`, eolintry.—( Hear, hear.) It was well known that the constabulary f orce i n I re l an d was divided into fourportions, according to the provinces, with out any head, and all the finance a n d internal arrangements were thrown upon the Under Secretary, who had duties enough otherwise to perform. It was for this reason that the Government proposed to appoint one Inspector General, re siding at Dublin Castle, instead of the four provincial Inspec tors General. Their salaries amounted to 5,432/., while that of the new Inspector General and his Deputy would he only 1.6001. It was also proposed to appoint an inspector for each county, and to entrust the duty of paymaster and store-keeper to a clerk, with a salary of 1001., but these salaries were all subject to the opinion of the House in Com mittee, It was not intended to interfere with the existing police force, and the Lord Lieutenant would have a power of increasing that force when occasion required it. He ' was opposed to any increase, on the burdens of the people ; and it would be seen that the expense of the proposed force would not exceed that of the present one. He estimated it thus. Under the contemplated plan, the salary of the In spector would be 1,0001. —the Sub-Inspector, 6001,—Inspectors of Counties, 11,900/.—Thirty-two Paymasters and Clerks, 3,200/.—Eiglity Sub Inspectors, 7,4001.—Tw0 hundred and fifty-six Chief Constables, 12,500/.—And besides this there would be a subsidiary force, whose pay would amount to about 1,637/. The whole forming a total of 41,2001. ; while the expense of the system as at present constituted was 44,2391. But the largest reduction, and that from which he hoped to derive the most beneficial results, was from the Superannuation Fund that he proposed to introduce.—( Hear, hear.) The Gallant Member (Colonel Perceval) had adverted to the oath proposed to be taken by the police-officers, and from the stress which he laid on the oath, it would appear that it had most excited his anger. It seemed to him (Lord M.) that the very words of the oath signified that it was not to have a retrospective tendency. The officer is to swear that he " does not now belong to, and will not join any secret, or political society whatever." No one, therefore, could complain, as unless he was prepared to take the '.,ath he need not present himself. If any Orangeman ';.as at present an officer, he would have an opportunity . 4 t considering whether he should remain in the police or retire from it, but if he did not choose to leave such secret. societies, he would be debarred from keeping Isis station in the police force.—(Cheers.) And surely when the Noble and Gallant Member told them that there were few recruits for the army or the police that did not belong to secret or political societies, and when he saw the hazard that these societies were to the peace and good-will that ought to prevail in Ireland--( Loud cheers)—surely it was time to look to the state of the Army.— ( Loud cheers. )—The police ought not to have a suspicious cha racter among those whose peace they were to protect, or if they thought--no matter how erroneously—that they were leagued in societies contrary to their interests, and that they existed only to exert an injurious supremacy over them. Respecting the case of New Ross, the police were dismissed from the service be cause they declined to answer questions which were put to them, and not because they belonged to Orange Lodges. They refused to answer questions that were put to them in the course of an enquiry which it was thought by the Govern ment to be incumbent on them to prosecute. He would not offer any further observations on the general character of the Bill, but there were certain points which he would be very ready to discuss at the proper time. Mr. F. SHAW contended that the effect of this Bill would be to vest immense power and patronage in the hands of the Irish Government, and to supersede the Magistracy of the country. lie did not object to there being one Inspector to the whole police force, but he wished to make some observa tions respecting the second clause—that relating to County In spectors, which appeared to him to be a most important clause. They were to have Inspectors for every county, and these were to take forthwith the oath taken by Justices, and, there fore, to become Justices of the Peace. If this were so, and they were to have salaried justices of the peace, theSo inspectors would virtually supersede the unpaid magistracy, and this introduced, in his opinion, a most impolitic principle. There would be no saving of expense, but even if it did, they would be obliged to purchase it at too dear a rate. He thought it a very dangerous and unconstitutional principle respecting the oath proposed to be taken. The Noble Lad had let out what had led to the adoption of that oath, It was to exclude Orangemen.—( Lord Morpetli—" All party men.") He did not think so. The Noble Lord had said that if an Orangeman were to present himself, he must be pre.. pared to leave all secret societies. Respecting the inquiry at New Ross, he thought the proceeding was illegal—it was not only contrary to the constitution but to the law. It seemed to him unconstitutional to oblige the police to clear themselves by what was called a voluntary affidavit. He thought that the system of persecution (for persecution he would call it) car ried on by the Irish Government wou ld not h ave the effect de sired.—( Hear, hear.) There was, be contended, on the part of the Government of Ireland a spirit of persecution carried On by a particular class. The tendency of this would be, and had been, to increase the very body they were endeavouring to put down.—(Hear, hear, from Colonel Perceval.) Suppose a law was passed to exercise such authority over his Gallant Friend (Colonel Perceval), as to say to him, that if he did not cease to be an Orangeman, he should not have a seat in that House—he was sure that his Gallant Friend had too much spirit to yield to such authority, and he could tell the Noble Lord, that the more he proceeded with persecution against these Societies, the more they would increase. He must, at the same time, say, that he was opposed to these Societies, and he was opposed to this persecution, because it would lead to the establishment of such Societies. It was symptomatic of an unsound state of society. He did not deny that these So cieties ought to be discouraged, but it was not possible to put them down by the means adopted by the Government— ( Hear, hear,) In this case the oath proposed to be taken would not reach those whom it ought to be intended for. The ribbon-men would be able to swear that he no longer be longed to any secret or illegal body, and yet substantially he would still belong to it. These parties had too well learnt the lesson that had been taught them. They knew too well how to evade all tests of this nature. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. O'Connell) had often boasted that he could drive a coach and six through an Act of Parliament, and did the Noble Lord think that these ribbon-men would not find advisers to show them how to evade this Act of Parliament. He did not see how the Bill could be made effective, for the fact was that the Orangemen called their Society a religious Society. It was useless to attempt to legislate for such a state of society as that in Ireland upon general principles. He could not but deprecate this measure, and he must say that since the Noble Lord had administered the affairs of Ireland, he had done very little to obtain the confidence of the Irish gentry, whose Church he had taken away, and now sought to deprive them of their independence. Lord MORPETH, notwithstanding the sweeping denun ciations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, admitted that it would be quite as well to have fewer ex officio Magistrates. Lord CLEMENTS made some observations respecting the mode of paying the Magistrates. Lord MORPETH would ask his Noble Friend how he justified the people of England, Scotland, and Ireland being compelled to pay for the police of the metropolis ? Lord CLEMENTS--I did not justify it : I voted against it. An HoN. Mooch, on the Opposition side, whose name was unknown in the Gallery, opposed the Bill. Mr. R. PLUNKETT did not see any great objections to the Bill--get it into Committee, and then lie had no doubt they would discuss it without any party feeling.—( Hear, hear.) The House then went into Committee upon the Bill. Colonel PE !WE VA L wanted to know whether any of the four Inspectors-General were to be appointed to the new office. Lord AIORPETII did not feel that he should give any pro mise upon the subject. Colonel PERCEVAL—Then the Noble Lord does not care for the expense, for these men must have retiring al. lowanct•s. The first clause was agreed to. On clause 2 being proposed, Lord CL E 11 E NTS objected to the Appointment of a Pay master. The County Inspector might do the duty. He had not much to do now. Lord NIOI , ZP F . T tan much to ti-H found that the Inspectors had i n d ee d and therefore it was that they proposed to have a t.ard working clerk under him, who would also have er . - .,ugh to do—as he would be made storekeeper, and also barrack-master. He moved that the clause be omitted. Mr: WALKER thought that the clause was unnecessary, for he knew that in many cases the Inspectors had not their full time employed. He would have no objettlon to give the Inspector 401. for a clerk, but he must oppose the appoint ment of A. new officer at 1001. He seconded the amendment. Mr. O'BRIEN opposed the Bill, as it would increase the taxation of the country. Mr. SEIA \V thought the Bill would be very useful, but he was afraid it would supersede the other magistracy of the count The salary must be adapted to the office, and he th u Jught not to be higher. M S RICE said in his county the Magistrates found that they could not go on without the assistance of a paid Magis trate nut to supersede them, but to assist and direct them upon r)oints. Mr. FRENCH objected to the increased expense which the Bill would put on the people, which they could ill afford. After some observations from Colonel PERCEVAL and Lord MORPETH, the clause, as amended, was agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 were agreed to. Mr. O'BRIEN objected to the sth clause. After some few observations from Lord MORPETII which were inaudible in the gallery, the clause, with some few verbal amendments, was agreed to. On Clause 6th being read, Lord CLENIENTS did not think it necessary to have so many persons as were provided for in the Clause to be Chief Constables of Police. Mr. WALKER thought some alteration should be made in the Clause. What he (Mr. Walker) would propose was, that the Lord Lieutenant should have the power of appointing any number of second class chief constables, which, when taken with the number of Inspectors, shall not exceed the number of Baronies, or half Baronies in the county—with a proviso, that if the county should be placed under the provisions of the Peace Preservation Act, in such case the Lord Lieutenant may increase the number of Chief Constables pro tempore. Mr. JEPIISON thought even this number would be too great, and the expense would be almost ruinous to some counties. ' Lord MORFETH—The Hon. Gentlemaß seemed to have ut of his view altogether the discretion that was vested, by the Act, in the Lord Lieutenant. He would propose an addition to the clause, to the effect that the salary of every such chief constable shall not exceed 70/. per annum. After a few words from Captain JONF;fi, Lord CLEMENTS wished that the number would be sprtified. Whatever the minimum number was, he should wish it to be inserted. The clause was then agreed to. On clause 7 being read, which empowers the Lord-Lieute nant to appoint any additional number of polka ecnnt!iblel on an application from seven or t , mre Magistrates of any county, Mr. WA.LKER proposed that the words should he inserted " having landed property situate within such county of the yearly value of 3001. or upwards." This qualification would be of very great importance, as it would require the rence of a large landed proprietary before I.lcli an application could be addressed. Mr. O'BRIEN had no objection to a qualification in point of property, but he would suggest, as an amendment, that such application should emanate from a majority of the Magistrates of the County assembled at any General or Special Sessions, such majority not to be less than seven. Captain JONES would press upon the Noble Lord to omit the clause altogether. Mr. O'LOGHLEN begged the House to recollect, that no addition could be made to the number of constables, a public meeting, and those who did not a ttvit,l the Meeting had no right to complain. After a short conversation, h which several Members joined, Mr. RUTH VEN considered that Magistrates under the directions of ab sen t ees , th e most o bj ect i ona b le M ag i strates in Ireland. He believed that a great many of them, in the dischar ge o f th e i r duties, only considered the interest of those who were seldom, if ever, in Ireland. In his opi nion, if the discretion were not left in the Lord Lieutenant, it would be much better not to pass the Bill at all. After some observations from Mr. WALKER and Colonel PERCEVAL, the amendment was withdrawn, and the clause was agreed to with some verbal amendments. On clause 8 being proposed to stand part of the Bill, Mr. F. FRENCH object-A to the clause. Lord MORPETII ',nought the clause would be productive of very great -,„vantages. Lord '_,LEMENTS supported the clause. PERCEVALCoIoneI thought it was hard, when a system was in existence that was so well constructed, and had done so much good for the country, that it should be altered without showing any good cause. He did not see why the House should take away from the Magistrates the power of recom mending those persons they might think proper. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that the magistrates themselves had considered that it was nit right that the appointment should be in themselves, as they felt convinced if it was, a species of favouritism would b.; exercised; they, therefore, at their first meeting placed the appointment in the hands of the Government. The consequence of the new arrangement would be that these men would be much more cautious how they acted. They would feel that they were not appointed by Lord so and so, or Mr. so and so, who would carry them through thick and thin, and protect them in any impropriety of conduct.—( Loud cries of " Hear.") For these reasons he thought no objection could be fairly urged against the clause. Mr. RUTHVEN was of opinion that the more they were removed from local sources of appointment the better. He did not like to hear unqualified praise lavished upon this body, al though he admitted that in some instances they had done their duty properly and fairly. But when removed from the county in which they were brought up, they were always better con ducted. Col. PERCE VAL thought some explanation should be given by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) of the sweeping charge he had made agaiost the police force. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt per fectly justified in the statement he had made relative to the impolicy of local appointments in that body.—( Hear.) Mr. F. FRENCH, in answer to the assertion that the peace preservation force was more respectable than the re gular constabulary, would state that such was by no means the case.--( Hear, hear.) The former had been guilty of many acts of insubordination and misconduct, which could not fairly be charged upon the latter. After a few words from Mr. WALKER and Mr. VESEY, The clause was agreed to, as was also clause 9. On clause 10 being read, which gives the Lord Lieutenant the power of incorporating the peace preservation force with the constabulary, Sir R. FERGUSON (as we understood him) feared that the tendency of this clause would be to throw a very great additional expense upon the counties. Mr. O'BRIEN thought it was one of the most useful clauses in the Bill. Mr. WYSE also approved the clause. Mr. F. FRENCH agreed with the Hon Member for Lon donderry, that the clause would tend to encrease the expense upon the public. Its tendency would be to render the peace preservation force, which was only appointed to meet emer genices, a permanent force. Clauses 10 and 11 were agreed to. On clause 12 being proposed, Lord C LEM E NTs moved an amendment to give the con stables a power of removing nuisances on the public roads. Colonel PERCEVAL hoped the Noble Lord would per severe in his motion. It was a monstrous thing that now when the police constables saw a gross nuisance on the highway they were without the power of removing it. Mr. SPRING RICE opposed the amendment, upon the ground that if you give them such a power, where part of the penalty for a nuisance went to the informer, the police would soon find out that it was a much more profitable matter to seize pigs, &c., than to attempt to preserve the peace. Lord Al ORPETH had no objection to insert a few words directing the rules and regulations to be sent to the Clerk of the Peace for the information of the Magistrates, who would thereby know what was the rule upon such a subject The clause was agreed to as amended by Lord Morpeth. On clause 13 being put, Colonel PERCEVAL wished to know from the Noble Lord what was the animus of this oath. He knew there were many who had been Orangemen now in the army of the police. He wished to know what would be done with those who said they had been Orangemen, but would not act as such while in the service? Lord MO RPE T H—All he proposed was to take care, that when the oath was tendered, the person offering to take it should declare that he did not then belong to, nor would he join or belong to, any secret or political society whatever. Mr. O'LOG HL EN could assure the Hon. and Gallant Member that the gentleman who conducted this inquiry was incapable of doing anything illegal. He challenged the Hon. and Gallant Officer to bring forward any charge against him. Colonel PE RCE VAL accepted the challenge of the Hon. and Learned Member, and gave notice that he would move that a copy of the Report, and the evidence taken on the in quiry, be laid on the table. Mr. RONA YNE thought this the most valuable clause in the Bill. He hoped that a similar oath would be extended to all other species of individuals who held rank or Commission under the Government of Ireland, and to Justices of the Peace also. The clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 14. On clause 15 being put, Mr. VE SE Y rose to move as an amendment, that in line 19 after the word appointed' the following words be inserted, 'as recommended by the Magistrates at the Quarter Sessions.' He thought the recommendation ought to come from the Ma gistrates, as they were chiefly concerned in the preservation of the peace. Lord MOR PET H objected to the amendment for the same reason that he had objected to the previous amendment. Colonel PE RCE VA L thought the Magistrates ought to have the power of approval of men in their own county as they should think fit to be appointed. Lord MO R PET H thought the effect of the clause was not calculated to be injurious, but greatly beneficial to counties. Mr. JACKSON thought the recommendation of the Ma gistrates ought to have great effect. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place, and the or ginal clause was agreed to. SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. S. RICE, it was agreed that the House at its rising should adjourn till to-morrow at twelve o'clock. ORANGE LODGES. Mr. W. H. ORD (we were told) appeared at the Bar of the House with a Report from the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the existence of Orange Lodges in that portion of our army which is in the colonies. The Report stated, that the Committee had summoned before them Colonel Fair man, deputy grand treasurer and deputy secretary of the Loyal Orange Lodge of Great Britain, and required him to produce a:letter-hook which he admitted he had in his possession, containing copies of letters addressed to persons in the colo nies, and answers thereto, having reference to that association, and that he had refused to produce the said letter-book. The Hon. Member having handed in the Report, moved that Co lonel Fairman be ordered to attend at the Bar to-morrow.— Ordered. LETTERS-PATENT BILL. On the motion of Mr. ToOKE, the House went into Com mittee on this Bill. Clauses l to 3 were agreed to without opposition. Clause 4 being proposed, Mr. WA RB URT ON objected to the retention of the clause in the Bill. It lodged the power of renewing patents in the bands of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, where the attorney of the party succeeding had treble costs; but if this power were confined to Parliament, the parties might go before a Committee, which would be most desirable. Mr. TOOK E said that the object of the clause was to pre clude the great expenses which were incurred in going be fore a Committee of the House, and by way of taking a me dium course, he had proposed that the Privy Council should have the direction of this matter, as it was peculiarly adapted to entertain this question. After a few words from Mr. HAwEs and Mr. PEASE, in support of the objection, Mr. WARBURTON urged that the question of renewing a patent was not a judicial one, but one of public policy, and therefore fittest for Parliament to deal with. . _ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL concurred in this view of the question. Mr. TOOKE yielded to the opinion of the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General, and the clause was withdrawn. Clause 5 was agreed to. The remaining.elauses were agreed to after a short discussion. The CHAIRMAN obtained leave to report, and the House resumed. Report ordered to be brought up . to-morrow. TITHES ON TURNIPS BILL. Captain brought up the Report on the Tithes ! on Turnips Bill. The 13i11 was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion that the Report on the Marriage Act I .!ti.64oic!' , . Mr. DIVETT said he had an amendment to propwe co the second clause in the Bill, to the effect that a marriage with the sister of a deceased wife, where there was a child or were children under 12 years of age, should be exempt from the operation of the Bill. There could be no doubt that cases Tl'ig!!t Pceur wlitn't‘ te h"f l4 to the lather and the children that such a marriage should be permitted. Mr. H. TWISS said, that having undertaken the conduct of this Report in the absence of an port. Friend, he could not consent to t! liiti'ditietion Of such an atnendnient. that amendment were admitted, he thou , ht it would endanger the success of the Bill elsewhere.—(Cries of " Order, order.") He had only intended this conversationally, and with the view of inducing the Hon. Gentleman to withdraw his pro- Mr. MUTT' said, he should certainly not withdraw his amendment, nor allow the discussion on any part of the Bill to proceed without first taking the sense of the House upon it, Mr. PO T.' LTN R did hot object to the principle of the OW, but felt to gti LIiStiINGTON was inclined to support the Bill as it now stood. lie considered that the amendment proposed was one of very great importance. and so important as not to ad mit of being sufficiently discussed and considered at this period of the Session. He concurred in the hope, therefore, that the amendment would be withdrawn, and that the Bill would be allowed to proceed as it was; then the Hon. Mem ber might bring forward next Session a short Act upon the subject of his amendment, when there would be ample time fully to discuss the question. An HON. MEMBER then moved that the House be counted. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and there not being 40 Members present, The House adjourned at three quarters past 7 o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, AUGUST 17. The VICE. CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack a few minutes before Five o'clock. ORANGE LODGES. A Message from the House of Commons brought up a Re solution of the Committee on Orange Lodges, summoning the attendance of the Duke of Gordon and Lord Kenyon be fore them, to give evidence on the nature and extent of Orange Lodges in Great Britain and the Colonies. Mr. Sergeant PEREIN and others brought up the Irish Cor poration Reform Bill, Exchequer Courts in Ireland Bill, and several other Bills. The Tea Duties Bill was read a third time and passed. Several private Bills were passed forward a step. The Duke of RICHMOND moved the second reading of the abolition of Unnecessary Oaths Bill, which was ordered to be committed to-morrow. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented petitions from Shaftesbury and Chester in favour of the Corporation Reform Bill, which his Lordship observed was so mutilated now that it was doubtful whether it could reach the other House.—( Hear and laughter from Lord Kenyon and others.) Lord FARNHAM presented several petitions from Dublin and other places in Ireland against the Irish Church Bill. The Marquis of WESTMEATH complained that several Returns which he had moved for, had not been made up and produced. Lord RADNOR brought up the Report of the Limitation of Polls Bill, which is to he read a third time on Thursday. Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from the bo rough of Gateshead, praying that certain rights might be pre served to them. MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL and others brought up the con sent of the House of Commons to certain Amendments of the Bankruptcy Estate Bill. Lord RODEN presented several petitions from Ireland against the Irish Tithe Bill. Lord MELBOURNE presented several petitions in favour of the Corporation Reform Bill. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Oswestry, praying that the Bill might be passed without mutilation, but it was already mangled into ten thousand pieces. Also a petition from Truro, to the same effect. Lord EL L ENBO ROUGH said the property of Oswestry Corporation consisted of 25/. a-year, which was expended on the Constabulary Force. Lord BROUGHAM observed that a good deal might be said on that subject, but at present he would not detain the House. The Earl of DEVON presented a petition from Exeter against the Corporation Reform Bill. The Marquis of WESTMINSTER wished to know whe ther this petition was agreed to at a public or a hole and corner meeting? Lord BROUGHAM said, that if it had been agreed to at a public meeting, it was a great curiosity. The Duke of WELLINGTON rose and said, that he could treat the Noble and Learned Lord to such a petition, for he had one from Hastings agreed to at a public meeting, and against the Hear, and laughter.) Lord BROUGHAM observed that one curiosity sometimes brought forward another, and the Noble Duke, as a collector of curiosities, had been diligent and fortunate enough to find one of this kind ; but he feared the less its character was inquired into the better, for if it were scrutinized, like Cornelius Scriblerus's shield, it would turn out to be nothing but an old candlestick.—( Laughter. ) On the Order of the Day for bring up the Report on the Militia Staff Bill being read, Lord WESTMORELAND protested against the mea sure, and entreated the Noble Viscount (Lord Melbourne) not to press it. The further discussion was postponed until to. morrow. Lord BUTE presented a Petition from Argyle in support of the Church. Lord MELBOURNE brought up the Peace Preservation in Ireland Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday. Lord BROUGHAM gave notice, that he should propose an amendment to give certain powers to the Grand Jury. It was subsequently agreed that the Bill should be read a second time to-morrow. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL. The Order of the Day having been read for going into Committee on the Municipal Corporations Bill, and the 35th clause being proposed, Lord L YND HU RST had some amendments to propose upon the clause, which were consequential on the amendments the House adopted the night before. They had reference to the 96th clause, which empowered the council to recommend persons to the Crown for the office of justices. By the Bill all persons at present holding the office of magistrate were to continue in office until the Ist of May, 1836 ; but if new ma gistrates were to be created, he could not see why the old ma gistrates were not to be continued. He should, therefore, pro pose to strike out the words which limited their duration of office to the Ist of May, 1836. Lord BROUGHAM said that his Noble and Learned Friend had again got the knife in his hand, with which he had so unmercifully butchered the Bill the night before, and he was sorry to see that the same slaughtering process was to be proceeded with again that night. Did his Noble and Learned Friend mean that all magistrates who now held office in cor porate towns were to be continued ? In some boroughs the two senior magistrates only were ma g istrates, in others those only who had passed the chair. Did his Noble and Learned Friend mean to say that because a man happened to be once an alderman, he must be always a magistrate. His Noble and Learned Friend was now placed in a judicial character over the Bill, and he (Lord Brougham) would humbly submit to the Court—( A laugh)—that a different sentence ought to be passed upon it from that which his Lordship had pro nounced.—( Laughter.) _ . _ Lord LYNDHURST said that he had listened with the greatest patience and attention to the arguments of the Learned Advocate--(Laughter)—and he could assure the Learned Advocate, that his only object was to do justice. There were many persons in those corporations who held situations under a charter from the Crown, and he did not see why, in common justice, they should be removed. This was his judgment, but it was open to his Noble and Learned Friend to bring his writ of error in the other House of Par liament.—(Laughter. ) Lord BROUGHAM had seen his Noble and Learned Friend preside and give judgment in another place, but he never decided there without hearing arguments, but now he was giving judgment before he heard Counsel. Something after the manner of one of the judges of a certain place, Rha damanthus, who presided where he hoped his Noble and Learned Friend would never go— (Laughter)—Castigatque auditque, not &dos, for there were no deli in that House.—. (Laughter.) Lord LYNDHURST had read the papers, as his Noble and Learned Friend used to do ; had listened to the argu ments ; and then pronounced judgment. Viscount MELBOURNE said that the evident effect and purpose of the various amendments which the Noble and Learned Lord had brought forward, were to preserve every thing and every person belonging to the old system, which the present Bill was intended to correct and improve. No mode could possibly be adopted better calculated to prevent all be nefit from the Bill than the course which the Noble and Learned Lord was pursuing. His amendments went to pre serve so much of the abuses of the old system as to render the Bill entirely insufficient, and prevent its answering the objects for which it was framed. He did not mean to offer any strong opposition to the course which the Noble and Learned Lord was pursuing in the present state of the House ; but when it should be seen the state in which their Lordships had left the Bill, it would be matter for the most serious consi deration of the Government whether they should proceed with it any further in its mutilated state. The Marquis of NORTHAMPTON thought it would contribute greatly to the efficiency of the new magistrates that they should have the assistance of the old, and he should, therefore, support the amendment. The Duke of RICHMOND said that there were several Corporations, the charters of which did not appoint magis trates, and here at least the new magistrates could not have the assistance of any old ones: The amendment was then put and agreed to. The clause as amended was then passed. On clause 36 being read, which provides for the division of boroughs into wards, Lord E LL ENBOROUGH had an amendment of some importance to propose upon this cl ause . H e h a d cons id era bl e objection to the king in Council having the power of appoint ing the limits of the wards. The House had already deter mined that the limits of the Parliamentary boroughs should remain as they we re a t present until Parliament should other wise determine, and there was no information before their Lordships as to those that were not Parliamentary. He was unwilling to say anything harsh of any set of men who had been engaged in the fulfilment et A,„i,7r,...,14t dvity, r,s those Commissioners had ; but still he must say that it;e: t . '/v!dtret of the Commissioners did not appear to him to be at all satisfat,'-: Lary, aid he. had a great objection . to the King in Council ttieir 46p'Oft.. The. Commissioners would have the fisw krrotktb. into wards, but also power 01 no - `t, • - of allotting the office of eodot'Ortiiin *t . 4 ttri7 . party they thought proper. Now, he was of opinion that such d pv,ri2r as this, ought only to be placed in hands free from all suspicion, and he th,ontfht 000 lit, above all others, to be given to the present menibcrs Yft.P:Octfo,ttetictri!, Ile should propose to have this authority vested in the the adjoining district. He objected also to that part of the eltit.44 doh says that no bo. rough towns shall be divided into wards tthh. 4 .F; it bits apopula t)er ,of 19,090 - inhabitants. Now, the object of dividing into wards Wiis ci fla - F iiitscsts of the town repr , sentell, and therefore he was desiroii !..:'trrOrui the system of warns as far as he possibly could. He would, toi :t.,!0 reason, assi o rrn wards to towns with a population of 6,000 and upWar6..v. He would give two wards to each town with a population of feam (1,000 to 9,000; three ll'ar& to towns with from 9,000 to 16,000 and so on, in the same pi'OpOnion, so that a popula tion of from ab,noo to 70,000 would have eight wards. The question then was, how were the councilmen to be apportioned --Whether with regard to property or to number, or to both. He thought it ought fn have regard both to property and numbers, as it was in ManeheiteF, was divided into 14 wards. It would be highly desirable tO rithipt this principle, of uniting property and numbers, if it was wished to make the measure permanent and useful. Those who returned Mem bers to Parliament ought not to he overriden, the more parti cularly as they were also the persons who paid loG;il taxes. He, therefore, moved that this clause be omitted altogether, for the purpose of substituting the amendment he should propose. Viscount MELBOURNE was by no means surprised at the Noble Baron's want of confidence in his Majesty's Minis ters, but he was at a loss to know why the Noble Lord wanted confidence in the Commissioners. He could sec no reason for it. The instructions which the Commissioners received were to divide the wards as closely as possible in equal proportions of rich and poor. They could not be better mixed than this. Each ward in fact was a small town in itself. The object was to combine, in an equal ratio, property and numbers, and this had been properly provided for by the instructions to the Commissioners, as far as it was practicable. The powers which the Noble Baron was not disposed to confide to the King in Council he was very willing to give to district Ma gistrates. This he (Viscount Melbourne) did not think was wise or discreet. He did not think that powers of so delicate, important, and difficult a nature, to be exercised impartially, ought to be placed in the hands of persons who could scarcely fail to be mixed up with the local politics of the town. He thought it would be much more prudent to vest such powers in the Commissioners than in the Magistrates of the districts. The Noble Baron also wished to have towns of a less popula tion than 12,000 divided into wards, but he (Viscount Mel bourne) could not see any good purpose that would be an swered by subdividing small communities. He confessed he did not understand the Noble Baron's mode of apportioning Councilmen, except that the object appeared to be to give the Bill a still more aristocratic character. He, viewed the proposition of the Noble Baron with doubt and suspicion§ The Earl of WINCHILSE A supported the. amendment, and said that the country was heartily sick of agitation, and wished for peace and tranquillity. The Earl of RIPON thought that 12,000 was a population too great to be made the minimum, and 6,000 he thought too low. But as too what the Noble Baron proposed, of giving to the district magistrates the power which the Bill gave to the King in Council, he did not at all approve of it. He thought that 10,000 would be a proper point to start from, as to population, and to a town with this number of inhabitants, he would give two wards. Lord ELLENBOROUGH—That would exclude fifty boroughs. The Earl of RIPON thought 6,000 too small. Lord ELLENBOROUGH, in explanation, said that if the Noble Earl would suggest any other hands in which he thought the power of dividing into wards would be better placed than in those of the magistrates, he (Lord Ellen borough) would give up his own proposition. The Duke of RICHMOND hoped that the Noble Lord would withdraw these clauses, which would interfere with the administration of justice ; and that he would not attempt, merely to get out of a difficulty, to adopt a course which would attach to the magistrates anything like political bias. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that the Noble Duke seemed to have forgotten that he was a member of the Go vernment which introduced the Reform Bill, which empowered the magistrates at the quarter sessions to divide the counties into districts. Lord BROUGHAM must really protest against this mode of proceeding. The Bill now before the House was a great legislative measure ; but a principle had been repeatedly re cognized by the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, whose amendments he considered as absolutely fatal to the Bill, to which he should call the attention of the House. That prin ciple was, that their Lordships were to stand stock still, that they were never to benefit by experience, and that they never were to depart from a principle which they had once recog nized. This was most absurd—even ridiculous. Undoubt edly in the case to which the Noble Baron referred there was great difficulty. The provision was agreed to under a pres sure. He (Lord Brougham) was exceedingly against the provision which gave to the Judges the appointment of the Revising Barristers, and he since had had reason to believe that those Learned Judges had not exercised their patronage in this respect as they ought to have done. If wards were multiplied, the effect would he, as any body conversant with elections would know, to split votes, and a house list would have to be made out by the election clerk. He objected to the principle of the magistrates apportioning out of the num ber of councillors. Such a power would create jealousy and discontent. He did not see the defects of the present Go vernment, which struck Noble Lords opposite so forcibly, but he thought his Majesty's Ministers were at least worthy of having this power entrusted to them. Lord SK ELMERSD AL E would suggest to the House that the Magistrates at the Petty Sessions should be spe cially called on to make the allotment, and that they might proceed or not, as they chose ; but that those who acted should make a report to the King in Council, who might or might not act upon their recommendation. Lord SEGR AVE thought that the principle of the Re form Act, which had been alluded to, was not at all similar to that on which these clauses were founded. Lord HAT HERTON knew that differences existed in many counties with respect to the operation of this clause of the Reform Act, but he thought that it had no analogy to the present subject under discussion. The Duke 'of RICHMOND said the suggestion of his Noble Friend appeared to be worthy of consideration. He only suggested that the Commissioners should report to the King in Council, and that the Report for the first election should be valid, but not hereafter until it should have been sanctioned by an Act of Parliament. Lord ELL ENBOROUG H said that the first election would be more important than all the others, for of three parts of the Council only one-third would annually go out. Lord FE VE RSII AM thought that the suggestion of his Noble Friend below him (Lord Skelmersdale) was worthy of the consideration of the Noble Baron. After an observation from Lord ELLENBOROUG H, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought the Magistrates would rather withdraw themselves from the responsibility which the amendment would fix upon them ; but, at the same time, he thought there was no foundation for the imputation that they would be influenced by political considerations. County Magistrates were always indisposed to interfere with the concerns of a neighbouring town, for they knew that such interference always created suspicion and animosity. The Marquis of BUTE was understood to oppose the amendments. The amendments were then put and agreed to, without a division. The clauses from 42 to 52 were read summarily ; and, after a miscellaneous conversation across the table, of which no thing could be heard in the Gallery, we understood that they were postponed, on the understanding that Lord Lyndhurst was to propose an amendment in a future stage of the .Bill relative to providing a compensation to town clerks for the losses they might suffer under the present measure. The succeeding clauses of the Bill were postponed until the Chairman arrived at.clause 65, which affects the licensing of public-houses. Lord WHARNCLIFFE thought that the present practice of licensing public-houses was so preferable to transferring the power to town councils that he should move the total exclusion of the clause. Viscount MELBOURNE said that the existing system of licensing had been found objectionable in every respect, and that the system proposed by this Bill was preferable. Lord WHARNCLIFFE explained. Lord BROUGHAM said that the House was so adverse to the Bill that any Noble Lord on the other side of it was sure of carrying any motion for the expulsion of any clause, or for any amendment that vitiated it. He would not therefore divide tho House. He would as soon think of taking the whole House on his back and carrying it with all the Members in it to the other side of the street.—(A laugh.) Lord ASHBURTON acknowledged that the system of licensing public-houses at present was objectionable, but if Noble Lords should set their wits to work to disarrange the state of society in small towns they could never produce a more effective plan than the adoption of the clause before them. The Earl of RADNOR supported the clause. The Earl of WINCHILSE A supported the amendment. Lord WHARNCLIFFE would stand up for the old law, and oppose the proposed new one on the ground that the former was more efficient than the latter. A NOBLE LORD, whose name we could not learn, supported he amendment. The amendment was agreed to without a division. On clause 67, Lord LYNDHURST said it was quite necessary that Par liament should come to some arrangement respecting charitable trusts. What he (Lord Lyndhurst) should propose in the clause before the House was, that as the Bill made the trusts in the hands of the present possessors terminable on the Ist of January, 1836, that date should be altered to the Ist of August of the same year. Lord BROUGHAM pledged himself, should the House adopt the amendment of his Noble and Learned Friend, to bring the subject forward in the next Session of Parliament. Tile amendment was agreed to. Clauses 68 to 72 were struck out of the Bill. Clauses 73 to 76 were ordered to stand part of the Bill ; the latter with a proviso added thereto by Lord ELLENBOROUGH, to the effect that, in reference to the rights of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, no majority of the local trustees included in the clause could have power to transfer any rights appertaining to these bodies with . - out the consent of the Chancellors, Vice-Chancellor s , and - Masters of the several Colleges. On clause 77, The Duke of R ICHMOND wished to know why map s trates and constables of boroughs were to have jurisdiction and authority in counties—at least, within seven miles of the borough ? Viscount MELBOURNE—To keep the peace. The Duke of RICHMOND had no objection to it; but he thought it would be only fair if the Bill gave the county magis trates an equal power in the boroughs.. The Marquis of SALISBUi:Y said it was essential that there should be a r...eiprocity of power and jurisdiction be tween counties and boroughs. After a few words from Lord L YND HUR ST the discus sion on the subject was underst..n to be postponed, and the clause ag.ecd io. Clauses 78 to 85 were agrocd to O. clause 85, Lord ELLENBOROUGII ,roposed a proviso to this clause, to the effect that, in boroughs where no fund was s ct .wart for the purpose o f p o li ce , 1 ; ?k , Watch Committee should • 1..11(0, from time to time, to the Secretary of State far the Ho= 61).;rtment every matter etting to the peace of their district. The proviso was h!lopted.. Clauses 86 to 92 wb.re then agreed to, as was also clause 93, with an amendment, Clauses 94 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, to 100 were agreed to. On clause 101 being proposed, Lord LYNDHURST moved, as an amendment, that re corders of five years' standing as barristers should be exempted from the operation of this Bill. After a short conversation this amendment was agreed to• The clauses to 133 were then passed. On clause 134 being proposed, Lord L YNDH UR ST had an objection to this wholesale i s sui n g of charters to these boroughs newly-enfranchised by' the power of the Crown. Charters were not trifles to be dealt with tet lightly. There should be good reason for giving these charters. Lord BROUGHAM—Do you object to all or to any? Lord I. YNDIIURST said in certain cases he would not object to the charters, but he did to the extent proposed. The charter should give the Council the power of appointing a po lice, and where the power was not given the charter should not be granted. Lord BROUGHAM said it might so happen that in some cases the population might be adverse to the appoint ment of a police force. A majority at a public meeting might be got up against it ; then why extend a charter to such a town ? Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought the Noble Lord right if a meeting could be got up by the application of strong Radical stimulants, to resist the introduction, of a force among them to defend property and keep order. The very party who would have the majority against the introduction of the police would have a majority in the election of the Common Councilmen, who would take care to obey the man" date, and refuse to have any police at all ; then why charter these little democracies of the Noble Lord ?—( Hear.) Lord LYNDHURST would suggest that the charters to be granted by the Bill should have the same effect as all charters granted by the Crown heretofore. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would beg at this star of the Bill to make a remark or two. The Noble Lord, ut the amendments that he had carried, proposed a certain qu a " lification of property for the exercise of the franchise. Noir he wished to ask the Noble Lord what he meant? Did b e mean that this qualification should be general, and should 11 3- ply to the life tenant corporators, whom he would protect L . ° Was the new authorities, that were to be periodically el e cted? ° the privilege of retention of office to be conceded in the 0 0 case, even without the possession of the qualification; and b°:( denied in the other, with this possession ? Was it to be an extensive or partial qualification? Lord LYNDHURST said the clause was general inv its al ) ; plication, that there should be a qualification for the propose" councillors. It did not trench on the modes of applicatiOn_.,l the details might be reserved for another time. TNe r : would be an opportunity of revising the clause at anotilei time. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was glad to hear the clause would be revised, which would have the effect of dis qualifying one-sixth of the governing body of the town if theY did not possess property to a certain extent. Lord LYNDHURST meant to re-consider the provisions and application of the clause. There was nothing said at ths time the princiiple of the qualification was established of its bearings in ind vidual cases. It was open to further colt' deration. On the re-committment of the Bill those distil and specific questions would lead to other and long discussion s * and they were at the present time premature. At the proper stage of the Bill, and after due consideration, they would he s .tisfactorily answered. Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble Friend's qualifies' Lions ought to be extended to existing Corporations as well as to the proposed councilmen. By tau present principle of till Bill if a man happened to be a pper, and took the benen" of the Insolvent Act, cheating his fellow-townsmen, or if n et " cheating them beforehand, incapable or un w illi ng to rende r them sustantial service after, should he happen to have been elected to the council, would go out in three years, or one year, as it might be, and if his fellow-townsmen did not r e- ' spect or trust him he would be disqualified from exercising authority over them again. But the clause proposed by Ws Noble Friend would saddle the town with pauper Aldermen and Councilmen f o r lif e . P er h a p s hi s N o bl e Friend would provide against this latter evil,—(Hear.) He would beg t°' remind his Noble Friend of a correspondence from Glasgoe4, which his Noble Friend read the other night, to show the bi l l' materials of which the Council there was composed, and a. this as an argument against the establishment of simil ar „ bodies under the Bill. He told his Friend that before Friday'he could procure full contradiction of this averment. 1. 1 1.- day (Tuesday) he received a letter from a well-known in vidual in Glasgow. He would mention his name, fir' Douglas, a member of the town council of Glasgow, a sae ) ; tor of great practice, who had formerly been a candidate f° the representation of Glasgow, and had obtained 100 votes. The letter stated that there never was a more unfounded state', mentthan that made by the Noble and Learned Lord's cornea" pondent--that paupers were appointed members of the town council, men who were not rated to the poor rates, and 0 1 ) ° were bankrupts. There was one member of the town coun c ,,: a man of highly respectable character, who had been a !)an' rupt ; but the letter stated— The Marquis of WE STAIEATH rose to order. Ile 048 travelling entirely out of the proper and legitimate line of dis cussion ; the Glasgow correspondence was not the subject be fore their Lordships. He respected the Noble Lord's talents' though he lamented their lamentable perversion. He not on l y introduced irrevelant matter in the debates of the House, h )t1 1 . usurped the unwarrantable privilege of dictating to thei a Lordships what course of argument they should pursue, al l when they were to speak, and what. His Lordship's eon" duct was a check and burlesque on their discussions , '" (" Order," and " Hear.") Lord BROUGHAM said the Noble Marquis could not ea! ! him to order, as he was about to move that the House reps , " progress. The Noble Marquis had unnecessarily called h i ' to order twenty times in the course of the session. The Marquis of CL ANR IC A R.DE begged to call the I• lo ,_b i ,: . Marquis himself to order. He was eternally calling Nou' a Lords to order which he was himself violating. He had calle r his Noble Friend to order at least forty times._ce Hear' from the Ministerial benches.) The CH A IRM A N thought the Noble Marquis was not.P 3r tified in his interruption. Lord BROUGHAM—" Well, you see the Chairman gai t you were out of order, and that I was in order. I was abo ut to conclude until you needlessly interrupted me." He had al ready ready stated that notwithstanding the use of the plural numb% by his Noble and Learned Friend's correspondent, there 08 ., but c,e member of the town council of Glasgow who had bee; a bankruct. The individual who was alleged not to be ra te : was not rates because he was a member of a firm, and it W B l thought better to rate the firm There was a third individna referred to, who was said to be a pauper. Now, he had a sa, la)/ of 600/. a year. Having got into difficulties he was offe re ; 300/. a year by the count,:il, which he refused, and such a coati could not be thought a paup,sr. The Marquis of WESTMi:ATH repeated that hem crclYt interrupted the Noble Lord, for whose talents he had gr:_a e. respect, though he could not appr.ave of his dictatorial t - and manner, because he thought he was about to read a ec'r respondence from Glasgow. Lord DEL A WARR (as we understood) said that Douglas was a notorious Radical, the head of that 005 msking- the most inflammatory speeches. On one oc casion, a meeting he hoisted the red cap of liberty on the top 01 pole.—( Hear.) Lord BRO IJG HAM said that as to the Noble Marquis had great respect for him. He might say anything of (Lord Brougham), to him, or about him, he pleased. "0 would not mind it, but would still take his own course, e ither forgive him or disobey him.—( Hear.) As to Mr. Doug a i' he did not care what he s a id or did, he only looked to l'_s reputed respectability. G e ntlemen should he very cautiou_ in using their privileges as Legislators in attacking the c, 11 '.: 0 ratter of a man who was. as respectable as any Noble L ora that House. ed, After some conversation across the table the Home revue and Thee th Chairman reorted progress. Bill, with am p endments, was then ordered to be fc' printed. PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) 811-J4Ol On the motion ofthe Marquis of LANSDOWNE this ''' was read a second time. Adjourned at 12 o'clock. (ADVERTISEMENT.) —T. COX SAVORY, Goldsn' l e o &c., 47, Cornhill, London, informs the Public, that he „offs SILVER WATCHES, on the celebrated PATENT 1.5 co n CONSTRUCTION, (the most accurate on which a watch jar be made) for SIX GUINEAS EACH, with all the latest p g, provements, e. the detached escapement, jewelled in four Win,. capped, hand to mark the seconds, hard enamelled dial, and Ina taining power to continue going while winding up. Old N.B. If in Hunting Cases, 10s. 6d. extra.—S e c ond ' h Watches purchased in exchange. B 11 8. On the 18th inst., in Audley-square, Mrs. Baillie, of a o . n :f the On the 16th inst., in Park-crescent, Worthing, the la d ) Rev. Charles Griffith, M.A., of a daughter. MARRIED. On the 18th inst., at Marylebone Church, Sir Waltcr Stirling, Bart., of Faskine, to the Hon. Caroline Frances P.'iece youngest daughter of Lieutenant-General Lord Stratford, and of George Byng, Esq., 11I.P. for _ _ DIED. •fr Of On the 18th inst., in Upper Harley-street, Jemin - ia, lb AV' - ° Sir Joseph de Courey Laffan, Bart 1,4 C London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOU NG , n y 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No 112, Strand, in the c— ot Middlesex. ONE the R e i Esq., Six i n the 29f Exceller (By altt At the Au gu , ?rop e , Lot 1. Tyv— A er „j tables, Q./ AN( This 4r ot , the 41. e . erne t 1361.7m0r THE SUN ) LONDON, WEDNIegIiA.V, AUd-UST 19, 183 P.: C T'