The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 18. Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. JEWISH DISABILITIES. The Bishop of SALISBURY presented several petitions against the admission of Jews into Parlia ment. Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills. PAUPERS. Lord HATHERTON moved for a return of all paupers who shall be chargeable in any parish or union in Englapd and Wales on the 25th of March, 1848 ; distinguishing adult males and females and children under 16 years of age ; distinguishing also those chargeable to parishes and those chargeable to unions ; and distinguishing further those who are relieved as vagrants, tramps, and wayfarers. The motion was agreed to after a almt discussion. NATIdNAL DEFENCES. Lord HARDWICKE said it was very desirable that the House should know whether it was the in tention of Government to resist the motion of which he had given notice, and he begged to put that ques tion to the Noble Marquis the President of the Council. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not in a position to answer the Noble Lord's question. DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH TIIE COURT OF ROME. The Duke of RICK LClotig presented a petition from Glasgow against the Bill for establishing diplo matic relations with the Court of Rome. On the question being put for going into Commit tee on the a' ova Bill, Earl FITZWILLIAM said he highly approved of the principle of the measure. It was of the utmost mportance that this country should have an accredited agent at the Court of Rome, and he for one thought no man could look at what was at present going on in many parts of Europe without being; convinced of this. A struggle was going on between absolute Governments and free institutions, and when be remembered that the Pope was favourable to the party who supported the latter mode of government, he could not help thinking that it was their bounden duty to give him the support of such a measure as this. But what could be more important to this country than being placed in a position to communicate officially with the Pope of Rome on the subject of his relations with her Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, part;cularly with those who resided in this country, and being, therefore, a supporter of the principle of this Bill, and - ready to vote for going into Committee to consider its provisions, he was anxious to throw out a suggestion that the objections of some of its oponents might be obviated by charging the phraseology in which it was worded. Lord CAMPBELL, in answer to a call from the Noble Earl who had just sat down, could assure the House that there was nothing now on the statute book, or in the common law of the land, to prevent her Majesty from establishing diplomatie relations with the Court of Rome, and he trusted, therefore, that there would be no objc ction to the form of this Bill. Their Lordships then went into Committee. Lord STANLEY suggested that the existing pre• amble should be struck out, and the words following substituted :—" Whereas doubts raving arisen as to the power of her Majesty to establish diplomatic rela tions with the Court ofßome, without :he sanction of an Act of Parliament, be it therefore enacted," !cc. This would probably remove the objection alluded to by the Noble Earl who bad addressed their Lordships before going into Committee. The Marquis of LA.NSDOWNE did not think it advisable to make such an alteration. The Bishop of WINCHESTER objected to the words " Sovereign Pontiff," and wished that some other title should be applied to the Pope. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it might perhaps remove the objection of the Right Rev. Prelate if they inserted the words, the " Sovereign Pontiff of Rome." The Bishop of WINCHESTER said it would not, because the term " Sovereign Pontiff " implied that the sovereign holding that had a supremacy over the sovereigns of other countries than Rome. If the Noble Lord would simply introduce the words " Sovereign of the Roman States" it would meet his objection.—(Hear.) After a few words from the Earl of SHREWS BURY, The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S saw no objection to the words as they stood in the Bill, for the term Sovereign Pontiff did not imply any superiority over the sovereigns or ecclesiastics of other nations. The term "Sovereign Pontiff," was to be found in Hume's " History of England," and many other works of eminent Protestants, and he could see no just reason why it should not be introduced into this Bill. The Bishop of EXETER said, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate, he must still object to the words used in the Bill. Ac cording to, the doctrine of the Protestant Church, there was no Sovereign Pontiff in Christendom, and it was no reason because some Protestant historian had loosely used the term Sovereign Pontiff while speaking of the reign of Henry the Second, that it ought to be introduced into the Bill. Indeed, the great question in dispute between the Bishop of Rome and the Reformed Church was, whether he had a right to adopt the title of Sovereign Pontiff, and although the term might have been used in his tory, he most decidedly objected to its being now for the first time applied to legislative forms. Lord COLCHE STE R warned their Lordships that it might lead to future difficulty, for it might so happen that the Pope of Rome might not be the sovereign of the Roman States. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the term So vereign Pontiff had been applied to the Pope of Rome as a title of courtesy for many centuries, and as it was used in this Bill in the same sense he could not see upon what ground their Lordships could object to it. Still he had no objection to adopt the words " Sovereign of the Roman States." The Duke of WELLINGTON said the Bill had for its object the establishment of diplomatic relations between the Roman States and this country upon political matters ; it appeared to him that the term or title " Sovereign of the Roman States" was prefer able to Sovereign Pontiff. The amendment was then agreed to. Earl of EGLDITON considered that it was ad visable that diplomatic relations should be established with the Court of Rome, but these diplomatic rela tions ought to be strictly of a political character. He should, therefore, move as an amendment to that part of the Bill empowering her Majesty to receive an Ambassador from Rome, that the following words be inserted in page 2, line 26, after the word what soever, " not being in holy orders in the Church of Rome, nor a Jesuit, or member of any other reli gious order, community, or society of the Church of Rome, bound by monastic or religious vows." The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not think it was expedient for their Lordships to dictate to the Court of Rome as to whom they should send to this country as ambassadors; and he must, therefore, resist the introduction o the amendment.—(Hear, hear.) This Bill would only place her Majesty. on a footing at the Court of Rome with other Pro testant sovereigns of Europe, but the Noble Earl Opposite wished that the Pope should be compelled to concede more to her Majesty, and he, for one, could not agree that this country had a right to make such a demand. _ The Earl of ABERDEEN rose to record his vote in favour of the amendment. He had had very consider able experience and he sincerely deprecated the resi dence of a Papal nuncio in this country—(Hear, hear) —not from any anti-Catholic feelings upon his part, fir all his life he was in favour of the removal of Roman Catholic disabilities but his objection proceeded en tirely from the great inconvenience to which the resi dence of a nuncio i n this country must necessarily lead. A nuncio must be an ecclesiastic, and as such he would bo invested with almost unlimited power. He would possess acknowledged spiritual superiority over the w h o l e Roman Catholic peopl e of this tcountry. The appo i n tment of a nuncio was in fact transferring the Vatican to England. If, however ' it must exist, he should mu ch rather see it remai n at Rome than should be transferred to London. — (Dear, hear.) The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the Noble Lord (Eglinton) was out of order. There villa(' be no necessity for the proposed clause if the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) adopted the suggestion made last night, and inserted the words " diplomatic relations ; " it would put an end to the necessity for specifying the classifica. tion or denomination of the particular persons to be ap pointed. He thought it desirab le that the question of the rank and description of the person to be appointed should stand entirely open.—(Hear, hear.) Lord BEAUMONT expressed his regret and surprise at the reasons assined by the Noble Lords opposite for their opposition tot he measure as it was proposal. i considered it not only expedient, but necessary and most important, that there should be a diplomatic con-. flexion established between this country and Rome. If no other advantage was to be reaped from it than to deprive Dr. M`Hale, and other such persons, of the opportunity of making misrepresenta tions respecting the state of Ireland, the measure would be . of tho utmost use an d importance. Dr. APllale, and others of his class, send their accredited agents to Rome, and from thos e p ersons and the representations they thought y the Pope. p roper to make, all knowled ge of I re l an d b was obtained He (Lord Beaumont) and n every enli g h tened ma in e lthis country b e li eve d t h at, circumstanced as Ireland is, it will b e governe d most effectively, through the instrumentality. of Rome. But as far as he knew, the opinion prevalent in Italy was that the less theyd ahaladutgehd.) w4t h li Ireland the better.— (Hear, hear, e party who objected to the measure out of doors, the ultra - Protestants, in Ireland, no and the ultra-ttortian Catehpopinicsitepar.rtya theireT h e n ui p e . doubt for opposite —very because they imagined the measure wonidal. poheata -mork e power, and the ultra-Rom a n - oppos e d it because they knew they would lose m uc h of ,their infiueikeelafquired by the means and facilitie n s e n of Afforded tbeni, tO.. make tho grossest misrepresentationsw st,liome. , " 7- ' r • # THE SUN, LONDON, SATU RDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 10, 1846 The Earl of SHREWSBURY opposed the amend ment, which would, in his opinion, render the whole measure nugatory. He wished to see a diplomatic rela tion established between this country and Rome upon principles of perfect reciprocity. A Protestant might be appointed from this country, and why should there be any restriction as to the class or description of the per son to be appointed as the representative of Rome ? In fact there were no persons in Rome except ecclesiastics who were adapted to the discharge of diplomatic duties or had received such an education as would suit them for such an office. The cases of Russia and this country were not parallel cases. But even so, if the Emperor refused to receive a nuncio, the Pope had equally re fused to send a minister either to Russia or Prussia. He would oppose this amendment, because he thought that if the clause proposed was adopted it would not only take away the grace of the measure, but would render it altogether useless. Lord STANLEY said that he spoke for himself and for the people of this country when he expressed his opinion that this amendment was of the greatest im portance, and he considered it of such importance that he should be mainly influenced in his ultimate course by its adoption or rejection by this House. The Noble Earl who had just sat down said that it would not only take away the grace of the measure, but render it en tirely useless. So far as there was any ground of offence on the part of the Popish Court, the Prussian Government were equally open to the charge. In the year 1845, the Russian Government was asked to receive a nuncio from Rome, and what was the an swer? That Russia was ready to stand on the same footing of entire reciprocity, The answer was, " Send us a lay envoy, and we will send one to Rome." The Argument of the Noble Earl would apply, if the British Government proposed to aek Rome to dispatch a Protestant envoy to this country, for then there would be no reciprocity. It was said that the question ought to be left to the discretion of the Crown, which discretion would change from day to day; but he wished to impress upon their Lordships that HOW was the time, when such a Bill was proposed to them, for their Lordships to interfere and lay down the condi tions on which they were to enter into diplomatic rela tion with the Court of Reme. The case of Prussia was compared with that of this country; but their Lordships should recollect that the Sovereign of this country held the Crown under settlement, and under a solemn com pact to support the Protestant religion, and that there was a law in this country which was stronger than the power of the Crown, to the effect that no person in the character of a Roman Catholic Ambassador from Rome should reside in this country. He opposed the rejection of the amendment as injurious to the peace and welfare of the Protestant community of this country, believing that it would be a step towards transferring the Vatican from Rome to London, and introducing new elements of confusion and difficulty in the administration of affairs in this country. Lord CL ANRICARDE complained of the amendment, because it fettered the Crown without fettering any other party. The Duke of RICHMOND said that the Crown was already very much fettered as regarded the Roman Ca tholics, and if this fetter were taken off it would be in future taken as a precedent for removing'the others; and thereby they would be going one step further in giving the Roman Catholics a chance of beating down the Protestant religion in this country. The Earl of lIARROWBY said a few words in sup port of the amendment. George 111. prevented them from investing their funds, amounting to 600,0001. a year, which relieved upwards of 1,000,000 males :and females, under the Friendly Societies Act, and praying for a remedy. LONDON WORXIIOUSES. Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition, complaining of the way in which the casual poor were treated in the London workhouses. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Mr. G. BERKELEY presented a petition from West Gloucestershire in favour of the removal of the Jewish disabilities. POPISH BULLS. _ _ Mr. lIENLEY presented a petition from Oxford against the admission of Popish bulls into this country. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Mr. PLUAIPTRE presented a petition against the admission of persons professing the Jewish religion into the Legislature. Mr. FRENCH presented a petition in favour of their admission. DUTIES ON TEA. Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from the Presi dent of the Chamber of Commerce and 470 mercan tile firms in Manchester, praying kr a large reduction of the duty on tea. NATIONAL DEFENCES. The HON. MEMBER also presented a petition against any increase in the naval and military establishments of the country. Mr. HUDSON presented four petitions from Sun derland against any alteration in the navigation laws, and a petition in favour of the Jewish Dis abilities Bill. Mr. HUME presented a petition from New South Wales complaining of the operation of the navigation laws, and the sconstitution of the Admiralty Courts. On au early day he should move that the petition be printed with the view of founding a motion upon it. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from Glasgow praying for relief to the West India Colonies. Lord LINCOLN presented a petition in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, it was ordered that the House at its rising should adjourn to Mon day next. RIVER STEAWBOATS. Mr. BRIGHT wished to know what powers her Majesty's Government had to control the steam boats of the river. Mr. LABOUCHERE thought that it would pro bably be necessary for him to apply to Parliament for some powers on the subject. SCOTCH ENTAILS. In answer to a question from an Hon. Member, The LORD ADVOCATE said that he hoped to be able to bring forward a Bill on the subject of Scotch entails in a few days. Lord CAMPBELL said that the real question was, whether they were to prevent the Crown from using its usual prerogative and to encroach on the law of nations, which he thought they would do by carrying the amend ment, which, on that ;round, lie opposed. The Duke of WELLINGTON proposed the intro duction of the words "'diplomatic relations," which would remove the necessity for carrying the amend ment. After a few words from the Earl of SIIREWSEURY and Earl FITZWILLIAM, who, though he felt considerable objection to sce an ecclesiastical official from the Church of Rome in this country, yet opposed the amendment, because he thought it would limit to too great a degree the power of the Crown, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he, on the part of the Government, adopted the suggestion of the Noble Duke. Ile had already stated that he was pre pared to adopt the suggestion of the Noble Duke, and he would have done so formally the night before, only he wishtd to know what was the meaning, the precise legal meaning. of the words " diplomatic relations." The Earl of ELLENBOROUO II Wished, befcre their Lordships proceeded to a division, to ask the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) how the proposed alteration of the terms of the Bill, by introducing the words " diplomatie relations," was to have the effect of the clause proposed as an amendment by his Noble Friend (Lord Eglinton). That clause was to have the effect of preventing her Ma jesty from receiving _in this country any ecclesiastic as ambassador from Rome. It was right that the Sove reign of these realms, who for 200 years could not ap point an ambassador at Rome, should now be relieved from any difficulty of diplomatic relations between this country and Rome where deemed expedient ; but then they were not prepared to go so far as to forget the whole interest and spirit of the Protestant legislation of this country ; they would, under no circumstances, re lieve the prerogative of the Crown, so as to enable any Minister to injure the Protestant Established Church. If an ecclesiastic was sent from Rome to this country, it would not only be injurious to the interests of Pro testantism, but a direct offence to every Protestant in the country. The - Marquis of LANSDOWNE assured the Noble Earl that he had never said, or meant to say, that the introduction of the terms suggested by the Noble Duke would have the effect of the clause proposed by the Noble Earl (Eglinton). What he stated was, that he was prepared to adopt the suggestion of the Noble Duke, and that he would have previously stated his de termination to do so, but he _wished first to ascertain the legal meaning of the terms proposed to be intro duced into the Bill.—(" Hear, hear," and " Divide.") Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared— Contents Non- contents Majority for the amendment —3 Lord REDESDALE proposed another amendment, which was in the following terms: " That it shall not be lawful for her Majesty to receive any ambassador, en voy extraordinary, minister plenipotentiary, or other diplomatic agent, until the Court of Rome shall have declared that it doth not claim, but distinctly disavows, any temporal or civil jurisdiction, power, superiority, or pre-eminence, directly or indirectly, within these realms, or any part thereof." The Marquis of LANSDOWNE opposed the amend ment. The Earl of SHREWSBURY said it would be much wiser to leave the Bill as it was, and rely upon the good sense and good feeling of the people of this country. Whenever there was auy intrigue or encroachment by foreign powers, the people of England would be, as they ever had been, able and willing to resist them suc cessfully. The Bishop of SALISBURY said, as he had agreed to the principle of the Bill, their Lordships should not defeat it by a proposition such as that made. He should therefore resist the amendment. After a few words from Lord STANLEY, who re commended the withdrawal of the amendment, Lord REDESDALE accordingly withdrew it. The Duke of RICHMOND proposed a clause pro viding that no ambassador from the Court of Rome should be permitted to do anything which a subject of this country could not do. Lord CAMPBELL said that from the constitution of the Bill such a clause would be quite unnecessary. The Duke of RICHMOND tnen withdrew his clause. Their Lordships then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday next. Their Lordships then adjourned, at twenty minutes past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS', Feb. 18. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. The Dundee and Perth Railway Bill was read a first time. the individual consumer. I will now proceed to refer to a paper which is in the hands of the House—the balance-sheet of this year, presented on the 3d of February. From that balance-sheet it will appear that there is an excess of expenditure over income of 2,956,6831. But in reference to this apparent excess of expenditure, I would impress upon the Committee that among the sums inserted on the side of expenditure, there is a considerable portion of the grant made to relieve Irish distress, amounting to 1,525,000/. ; and I would further explain that among the receipts here is the sum of 440,0001. under the head of China money, which amount, instead of laving been received here, was stopped, on its way to England, at the Cape of Good Hope, and placed in the military chest for the pur poses of the Kafir war. Deducting these two sums from the apparent excess of expenditure, the real excess of expenditure over income would be only 981,683/. I will now advert to the estimates under the different sources of revenue, which were set forth by my Right Honour able Friend in his budget last year, and the same which, as well as we can now calculate, approxi mately, will be received under those heads, taking the whole year up to the sth April next. The revenue estimated by my Right Hon. Friend as to be derived from the Customs was 20,000,0001.; the sum we now estimate to be received from these duties is 19,774,6001. The estimate in relation to the .Excise duties was 13,700,0001; the estimate) we have now formed is 13,340,0001. ; the estimate in relation to the stamps was 7,500,0001.; cur present estimate is 7,150,000/4 the estimate of taxes was 4,270,009/.; we now calculate that the taxes will produce 4,340,000/.; the income-tax, it was thought, would yield 5,300,0001, we now expect from it 5,450,000/ 4 the Post-office receipts we set down at 845,0)0/, the present estimate is 923,0001.; the Crown lands we estimated would produce 120,0001., we now anticipate from this source 60,00C1.; under the head of miscellaneous the estimate was 3,300,0001, our present calculation is 3,250,0001. The whole estimate from these various sources made by my Right Honourable Friend was 52,065,000/. the estimate now formed being only 51,362,065/. This, no doubt, is a considerable apparent falling off in the revenue ; but, at the same time, adverting to those circumstances which I have men tioned, to the dreadful scarcity in Ireland, to the com mercial panic, to the very sudden and extreme changes which have taken place in the course of the year, I must confess that the falling off in the revenue appears to me to be less than might have been expected under the pre sent circumstances —(Hear.) I will now take some of the items in which there has been a falling off, and some of those in which there has been an increase, my state ments in reference to which apply, of course, only to the sth of January last past, while the more general es timates which I have stated refer to the year ending the sth of April next. Of articles from which an increased revenue has been derived there are molasses, on which there has been an increase of 31,431/. ; sugar, on which there has been an increase of 540,0001. ; rum, on which there has been an increase of 64,000 Z ; butter and cheese, on which there has been an increase of 24,000/.; and tobacco, on which there has been an increase of 111,620/. On the other hand, there has been, as of course was to have been expected, a decrease in the duty on corn of 705,890/. ; on timber, of 143,751/. ; and on wines, of 132,3614 With respect to the Excise duties, there has been the large decrease on duties on spirits of 605,000/., and OR malt of 664,000/. —or together, 1,359,000/ But the amount of expendi ture actually voted, together with the sums which I have shown were not included in the budget, was 52,315,709/., whilst the estimated receipts were 51,362,0601., leaving a deficiency of 953,6491. I shall now proceed to state what I calculate will be the pro duce of the different articles which constitute the re venue, during the year commencing in April, 1848, and ending in April, 1849 ; and I take these different items from the usua sources, and calculate their amount in the manner always adopted on these occasions. The following is the estimate which I have formed of the revenue of the ensuing finan cial year ; Customs, 19,750,000/. ; Excise, 13,000,000/ This item I have estimated at a somewhat higher amount than is shown by the returns furnished up to January last, because the consumption of malt and spirits may be expected to increase in the ensuing year. Stage coaches I have estimated at 500,0001.; stamps at 7,200,0001.; taxes at 4,340,000/. The income-tax, which in 1846 was estimated at 5,084,000/., and in 1847 at 5,464,0001., I have taken, during the ensuing year, at 5,200,0001. The Post• office, which, in the year ending April 5, 1848, will have produced 922,000/., is estimated to realise, in 1849, 900,000/. The actual amount paid into the exchequer on account of the Crown in 1847.8 is estimated at 60,000/.; I have set it down at the same amount for the ensuing year. The miscellaneous estimates, in 1847.8, amounted to 325,0001, which includes a sum paid in on account of House of Commons fees ; I have set them down at 300,000/. The whole of these different items con stitute a prospective revenue for the ensuing finan cial year of 51,250,000/. I should state to the House that for several years past there has been a regular decrease in the amount received of China money, and that now there are no hopes of any more being paid.— (Considerable laughter.) Taking the whole amount of the expenditure as voted last year at the estimated sum of 52,315,709/, and the receipts as already enumerated at 51,250,0001., there will be a deficiency between the receipts and expenditure of the ensuing year of 1,065,709/. That is to say, the deficiency which I have stated will exist, supposing the expenditure is the same as last year. But there is also a large sum to be voted for the excess of the navy expenditure during the year 1847, and also the sum of 1,100,0001. required to defray the expenses of the Kafir war. Those two items con stitute a total amount of 1,345,500/, which, added to tho deficiency of 1,065,7001„ which will exist, supposing we maintain our establishments on their present foot ing, will constitute a total deficiency in the revenue of 2,411,2001. Now, Sir, I have wished to lay the foregoing statement of the finances before the House of Commons at this early period, in order that the House may take into its most deep and serious consideration the state of the finances and the circumstances of the country, and from those two elements to come to some resolve with respect to the course which shall seem most befitting to the interests and the credit of the country to pursue. There arcrvarious courses open for us to take. All that I in tend doing to-night is to propose to the House that course which the Government has deemed it best to pursue under the circumstances, leaving it open to the deliberation of the House whether the propo sitions which we bring forward are worthy of adop tion, or, if not, what other course will be most suit able to the circumstances of our financial position, and to the future welfare of the country. And, Sir, it can not but strike every ono who looks into the facts which I have detailed, that there is a groat question involved in the existing state of our finances—namely, that we mast either supply the deficiency which I have pointed out, by increasing our taxation, or else that we must come to a resolution to the effect that we can make very great reductions in our military and naval establishments, whereby we shall be enabled to reduce the expenditure of the country, and thus meet the current demand upon the revenue, without being obliged to have recourse to increased taxation. Those, Sir, are the subjects which I have wished the House to take into its consideration, and it now becomes my duty to state what views the Government entertains upon these questions (Hear, hear.) Sir, there have been, I think, extreme opinions held and expressed out of doors on the subject of our national defences. These opinions comprise on the one hand, as it appears to me, four different propositions. First, that we may at any moment of time be suddenly involved in a war ; second, that we were liable to an invasion ; third, that the foreign powers, and particularly France, had been mak ing great military preparations of late ; and, fourth, that our defences were at the present moment totally in adequate to offer any effectual resistance in the event of any attack or invasion being suddenly made. On the other hand it has been urged that we are at this mo ment in a state of profound peace with the continental powers, and that our relations with France in particular are most friendly, so that an invasion on her part is the most improbable occurrence that could have been suggested.—(Hear, hear.) It has likewise been stated that all these circumstances were argu ments for the reduction of the expenditure, and that the establishments of the country were not only not upon a low footing, but were, on the contrary, extravagantly high. These, Sir, are the;propositions pro and con which have bean urged out of doors upon the subject of the national defences; and I confess and feel the difficulty, not to say delicacy, which surrounds the subject, and which makes me somewhat diffident in approaching it. But, Sir, so largely and freely have all these topics been discussed out of doors, that I feel I cannot refuse to state to the House what are the views enter tained by the Government upon this question. Let me, in the first place, most carefully guard myself against the supposition that I think in our foreign relations, and especially in respect to France, there is the smallest reason to fear that any rupture of the existing peace is to be anticipated.—(Hear, hear.) No man in this House is more fully persuaded than I am of the advantages to England, to Europe, to the whole world in short, of the continuance of the existing peace, and, above all, of the importance of preserving our pre sent friendly relations with France.—(" Hear," on all sides.) Sir, it is my belief that these tvvoigreat coun tries, both of which possess the advantages of a repre sentative and a constitutional government, both of which have earned glory enough to satisfy the most ardent thirst for military reputation, it is, I repeat my opinion, that on those grounds there exist no reasons why the relations between France and England should not hence forth be of the most amicable nature ; and, Sir, it is my earnest wish that our intercourse may be most intimate in future.—(Hear, hear.) There is, however, another point of view from which the existing relations between France and England have been judged of, and which it is necessary for me to bring under consideration in looking at the present question—l find it stated in a pamphlet, written, I must say, in the most friendly spirit by M. Michel Chevalier, and exclusively devoted to the subject we are now considering, that the Duke of Wellington had thought it necessary to make a sort of pamphleteer ing manifesto in answer to the Prince de Joinville. Now, I will venture to say that nothing could have been further from the intention of the Duko of Wellington than to make any such communication.—(Hear, hear.) I know well that nothing could have caused him greater pain than the publicity which had been given to an opinion which he expressed privately and in a confiden tial manner.--(Hear, hear.) The Duke of Wellington, Sir, bas from time to time communicated to the Go vernment, and does so now, that which he considers ought to be done in respect to the defences of the country, and he has pointed out wherein there exists any deficiencies in those defences. But, in doing so, nothing could have been farther from his intention or his wish than to make any appeal to the country or to inflame the people cf England so as to disturb or endanger our amicable relations with France. Nothing, Sir, can, in my opinion, be purer than the patriotism of the Duke of Wellington—(Hear)--and when I speak of patriotism, I do not mean that instinctive feeling which prompts a man to love his country above al lothers. To the Duke of Wellington's patriotism there has always been joined an opinion which I share most cordially with him, that one of the reasons why it was most desirable the indepen dence of England should be maintained was, because that independence was a guarantee for the independence and civilization of Europe, and of the other countries of the world.—(Hear, hear.) No man, Sir, is justified, or indeed is able to cast blame on the Duke of Wellington, if he expressed his opinion in the way I state it to have been conveyed (Hear, hear)—and I should think it quite unnecessary to defend him, or to refer to the sun ject of his letter, if it had not been that I have the mis fortune, in the first place, to differ from somo of his opinions; in the second place, to have become cognisant of the fact, that not only foreigners, but also many persons in this country have mistaken his views; and, lastly, that however strong his cause zany be, he has always scorned to have recourse to self-defence. Having said thus much respecting the Duke of Wellington's letter, I will now refer to the four different points of view in which I regard it. With respect to the first supposition that has been expressed, that, namely, of the probability of our being involved in a war, which unhappily, notwithstand ing the existing peace, is a contingency that ne one can deny the existence uf; since the great peace of 1815 we have had questions with the United States, Russia, France, and other foreign 'powers, which, if they had not been managed with the utmost forbearance on both sides, might have led to a rupture and to a state of war. Even so late as the year 1844, at a moment when our re lations with France were of the most friendly descrip tion, a question arose of tile most deeply compromising character to those relations. An insult was offered to a civil officer of the British Crown at a distant station, and some hesitation was displayed by France in making a reparation for that insult. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel), who was then First Lord of the Treasury, spoke in this House respecting that trans action in language which was not only justi fiable but necessary ; and yet I have been as sured by French gentlemen of great judgment and poli tical knowledge that the language made use of by the Right Hon. Baronet on that occasion had rendered it difficult for the Government of France to tender the necessary reparation. If that was the case upon the oc casion to which I refer, what circumstances might not daily arise to bring about a similar difficulty, and what a degree of susceptibility does it not show to exist oil the part both of Eugland and France, which, possessing great strength, are acutely alive to any oucurrence which may tarnish their honour? When such slight accidents as these arise to threaten the existence of peace, how little is it in the power of the Executive Government to foresee the moment at which that peace may not be dis tui bed. I cannot, therefore, but admit, that however tranquil the aspect of our foreign relations may be there is always a possibility that a rupture may occur; and when I recollect that Mr. Pitt, wit% all his sagacity. predicted, in the year 1792, a long peace, I cannot discover any reason why England in the present time ought not to be on the look-out for the contingency of a war breaking out, nor is it other than impossible for me to foresee the moment at which such an event may suddenly occur. With regard to the second point which I adverted to—namely the danger of an invasion, although I am not one of those who either dread or anticipate such an event, yet however impro liable it may be deemed, it is one to be guarded against, During the course of three hundred years, as any reader of history will readily recollect, there have been nume rous occasions on which invasions of England have been projected and attempted. The elements on more than one of those occasions have stood our friends, and expe ditions fitted out with the greatest care and equipped most completely have been defeated by adverse winds, and the armaments intended for our destruction have been scattered and destroyed.—(Hear, hear.) But the science and skill v hich have been exer cised of late years, since the general peace of 1815, have enabled our sailors to traverse the sea against the wind and tide, and, in defiance of the elements, to conduct a vessel across the seas. Other nations are possessed of the same advantages; and it is possible that a hostile force may, under such appliances, be conducted into our harbours, or appear on our coasts. With regard to the third point—namely, that prepara tions for war have been made by foreign nations, and by France in particular—it must be recollected that of late years, and since the revolution of 1830, that country has been governed by a King who is, I believe, a sincere lover of peace, notwithstanding that has, during the whole of his reign, maintained an increased and an increasing force. That increase cannot be said, as in our own case, to be necessary for the defence of wide colonial possessions, or to protect an extended commercial navy, scattered over the ocean, and laden with vast riches. Neither the extent of the French colonies, nor the extent of the com merce of that country, require such a large increase in her forces as I find to have taken place within the last few years. In the year 1833 I find that the increase in the naval conscriptions was 101,000 men. In 1847 the conscription for the navy was 134,000 men. Tho effective force of marines in 1833 was 11,000, and in 1847 it had increased to 20,000: The value of the annual consumption of material increased from 640,0001. in 1833 to 820,0002 in 1847. The number of vessels at sea in 1833 amounted to 153, and in 1847 to 216.—(Hear, hear.) Of this number, 66 were steamers at sea; the whole force of steamers in the French navy being 111. The number of seamen increased during the same period from 16,807 to 29,000, and the expenditure from 2,280,0001. to 3,902,3201. The amount of stores now afloat is 3,000,0001., and the amount in the French arsenals, and in preparation, are in proportion. But then, I am told that in the French estimates for the present year there has been a reduction. It is true that in the naval estimates there has been a reduc tion or saving to the amount of 81,000/. in the wages of seamen, but then there has been an increase of 112,0001. in stores for the fortifications and dockyards, making altogether this year an increase of 31,0001., and no diminution of expense.—(Hear, hear.) I have here another statement respecting the navy of :the French, with which it is not worth while troubling the House, but it shows the whole sum voted for the army and navy for the year 1849 to be 3,817,107/. Now Ido not allude—and I am sure the House will bold me right in this respect—to what may be the military forces of foreign powers. I do not allude to what may be ,the number of the standing army of France, or Austria, or Prussia, or any other foreign country; but when I see a great increase in the naval estimates of another coun try, then I think the subject requires attention, and should bo placed within the knowledge of this House and the country.—(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, there are— of course I need not say so, for every one has heard the statement—there are eleven in number of these French steamers which would carry twelve or fifteen hundred men each, and which might cm— b a e asni p lhei r esl e :e p e a onw r r e rel d ueihanda f No: England, beentransportn occupation dallsudden thist the destroy our danger,e capital, there exposed n to ao has been no adequate naval or military preparation going on on our part. Now I do beg the House to attend to what has been made a matter of reproach by some Hon. Members, and which ought to be a source of consolation to those who are so fearful that our forces can never be made sufficiently great. I shall tell both the increase of i t n he tw c o hancelior particular o force we have m a d e s i nce 1835, or , rat h er, I s h ou ld say, years.the Right Ex l‘ c ly hequ er stated n HonourablelB36,that Friend tt in one b ear there was an increase of 5,000 seamen. The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, when he came into office in 1845, further increased the number by 4,500. The whole increase in seamen, boys, and marines, has been from 15,500 seamen in 1835 to 27,500 in 1448, boys to 18,000, and marines from 9 . ,000 to 13,500, m a ki ng an i ncrease i n a ll f rom 26 . 500 in 1835 to 43,000 in 1848. The army has been increased from 100,991 to 138,769, making an increase of 37,778. The ordnance has been increased from 8,262 men in 1835 to 14,294, being an increase of 6,072. So that the whole of our regular force, army, navy, and ordnance has been increased from 135,742 men in 1835 to 196,063 in 1848, being an increase of 60,321 in that period of time. I have now stated every item of increase. I think that our force was inadequate in 1835, and that therefore those items of increase have been very pro perly voted by this House ; but, at all events, it can not be said that there has been any neglect or unwill ingness on the part of this House to vote what were deemed necessary estimates.—(Hear, hear.) There have been also of late years other kinds of forces which have been drilled and organized, and which, I believe, will be found, in case of the necessity arising, most useful and effectual. Under the late Government 15,000 old soldiers of the line were organised as pensioners. Under the present Government there have been enrolled dock yard battalions, a very efficient force I believe, and amounting to 18,900 men thus composed:—Artillery, 2,843; boat battalions, 2,016; infantry, 3,428; sappers and miners, 586. The number of guns allotted to this force is—field pieces, 168; ship guns, 144; battery guns, 336, worked by the artillery; and 432 worked by the infantry; making in all 1,080 guns. A great part of this force could at any time be sent to another part of the kingdom with their field pieces, supposing that part in which they are stationed not to be threatened. There has likewise been a plan for organizing and drilling the coast guard, and in adding to that force other men who, for a certain small amount of pay attend on certain days for drill, and will make, as I believe, a very efficient force, the coast guard being 2,000 and the supplemental force 6,000 men. I do not think, therefore, that on the ground of the number of men, there has bean any unwillingness on the part of the Governments of the different periods to which I have alluded, or on the part of this House, to make adequate provision for the national defence.—(Hear, hear.) The kniounts voted have increased at least in proportion to the number of men I have stated ; so much so that, con fining myself to the various items of army, navy, and ordnance, the estimates have increased from 11,730,073/. in 1335, to 17,340,096/. in 1848. The question then to which I come is thitn whether we should now m a k e a very great reduction in our forces, whether we should, taking the opposite view, make a very large in crease , or w h e ther we should continue adding from time to time to such parts of that force as may seem to the Govern ment and the country to require increase, resting satisfied with such additions and alterations as may be suited to circumstances. Our view is, that, in the first place, considering the position of this country, considering her immense empire, the number of colonies which have been added to that empire, the various great changes in our military force, the possibility of war, the duty of this country to defend herself, and to maintain our indepen dence, it would not he wise to endeavour to make our ex penditure equal to our income by any large reductions. On the other hand, we are uo less of opinion that there is no reason for sudden alarm or precipitate preparation. Our belief is, that, taking the different forces you have of navy, army, and ordnance, with moderate additions to certain parts of these services, this country will be in a i fit state of defence, and thereby obtain the best security ins shall be most to the advantage of the essuntry.— for peace.---(Hear.) I say security for peace, because I ! (Hear, hear.) I will now state what will be the whole consider that the object of all these armaments is to ob- ' expenditure under the different heads for the year from lain the!, security.—(clear.) Let any one consider , the sth April, 1848, to the sth April, 1849. 2.ire charge what would be the effect, in case there was such an no- ! for the funded debt is 27,778,0001.; unfu .nded debt, cident as I have alluded to in 1844, concurrently with 752,6001 ; making together 28,536,6001. 1 consoli such an unfortunate state of relations between this dated fund charges I take at 2,750,000/.; the expenses we country and a foreign power as existed in 1840. have to pay for the Kafir war, 1,100,0001.; naval excess (Hear, hear.) In every country the people arc in for the year before last, 245,5001.; ch avge for the such cases divided into two parties. One party is for navy for this year, 7,726,6101.; army, 7,162, 9962; ord the maintenance of peace ; while there is another nance, 2,924,835/. ; miscellaneous, 4,006,00 C I.—making for rushing at once into war.—(Hear.) If the party in all, including navy, army, ordnance, and raised which is for war can say, "Look ; 3 our neighbour is laneous, 54,446,5001. I add to this 150,0 00/. for the totally defenceless. Now is the moment for a de- militia, and we have a total of 54,596 .5001.—(11ear, cisive blow, which she will never recover." I say that, hear.) It is evident, therefore, if her JiLajesty's Go under such circumstances, the war party would have a vernment are correct in the view they h; we taken of the great advantage in discussion.—(Hear, hear.) On the necessities of the country—if they are rig at in believing other hand, if the peace party can say, "You are mis- that, looking at those necessities, it is n. zt expedient to taken in that view : look at the preparations she has make large reductions, but that it is exp• :client rather to made, all her forces quite ready. Any attempt by sud- go on maintain:ng and improving the fo tees we have— den surprise to overpower that country must be met by it is obvious that not only must I prop , Ise a renewal of signal defeat." I say that with just foundation for such the income tax, which will expire this 3 'ear, but that it an answer the peace party would gain an immediate will be necessary, supposing the House should approve vctory.—(llear, hear.) Well, then, what is our state ? of our estimates, or anything like the estimates of she So far as regards the navy, we propose in the navy past year—it will be necessary that ad Jitional taxation estimates of this year ati increase of 161,0001. Of t hi s , be imposed.—(Murmurs.) In adverti ag to this quese 94,000/. is for services not strictly naval, leaving lion lam speaking of that which I thin k .are the necese 70,000/. only for the increase of our naval expenses. I sitics of the time to come. It is obvi. tus that a great have in my hand a privateletterof Lord Auckland's writ- portion of the deficiency to which. I alluded at ten to me in consequence of my desire that he should time commencement of my statement, is, do . pendent on a pay every attention both to the estimates he had of the state of the country, afflicted with searoit y, and cense- French navy, and those which were to be laid before the quent commercial and manufacturing Mistress; and House of Commons. Without troubling the House with though it would be idle and presumptuous. - to say that we the early details of his letter, Lord Auckland says : are at once to return to a state of pew perky, yet we [The substance of the letter, which the Noble Lord read may, I think, look forward, within 110 vt iry long course in a low and rapid tone of voice, was a statement of the of years, to an improved condition of tot:amerce and present force of the French navy in commission, censist- manufactures.—(Bear, hear.) It we are blessed with ing (as we understood) of six ships of the line in coin- I bountiful harvests, the effects of that sea rcity of which mission de rade, and four in commission de force. Against I we have had to speak will in time be nod ioubt rtmoved; this it was proposed that we should have eleven ships in and, as regards the income of the count dry, we may, at commission, six with Admiral Parker, arid five with no very distant period, look for improv. tment.—(Hear, Admiral Napier. In addition to thi-; the Bellerophon hear.) And, with respect to the staceme, at I have made would soon be completed, making twelve ships of the as to the expenditure, it must be remem be ed that no line. But by reducing ono we could maintain three less than 1,100,0001. is required for the tun a for defray guardships, in a condition equivalent to the French ing the expenses of the Kafir war, . and the last dise commission de rade. If these latter were required for patches we have from the Cape contain ale tter from Sir sudden service they could be fitted up with marines, and tarry Smith, in which he states that, from the accounts if required for ordinary service they could be fitted up forwarded to him, lie has every reason to believe that the in the usual manner, and sent to a foreign station. The war is at au end. I cannot, however, say ti alit there is' writer further proposed a reserve of steamers, first at consequently, an end of the bill—(A laugh)—but Portsmouth, consisting of 3,386 horse-power; a small I presume the next vote we shall have to take for this squadron at Cork, and another at Sheerness, five at each purpose will be considerably less than the present, and place. As the new steamers were brought into active that the war being ended, we may look t o the speedy service the old ones were to be adapted to harbour de- termination of this source of expense.—(As r observation fence, and to be manned with a short complement of was here made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) officers and men. The expense of keeping their boilers My Hight Hon. Friend says truly, that th is 1,100,0001. in order would be considerable, hut nothing like so great is for two years, therefore we must not (a: spent, under as the expense of sea-going steamers.] The Noble any circumstances, a charge of the like ;L mount in the Lord continued—l think that is aiii s e precaution. It estimates of next year. On both these gr.); ands, then— refers to that which must be our first defence in case of first, on the ground of future improvem et it in the re war; and lot it riot be forgotten that if there be edema- venue—though I will not be so sanguine as to estimate Cages in the invention of steam fur the purposes of in the present budget to what extent that • improvement conveying troops rapidly across the sea, there are other may be in the course of the ensuing year , ---and on the advantages attached to the invention for the purposes of ground of diminished expense on account of the Kafir blockade, and of watching ports, of which, with the skill war, we may, I think, fairly hope that onl y a temporary and science of British seamen, this country would not be increase will be required in our esti., mates.—(Hear, slow to take advantage of. -e--(Hear, hear.) I should hear.) In saying on what, in any view ,„ the increase hold, therefore, that with the present votes we should of taxation should be, I shall consider tb ,e present state be fully prepared, so far as naval preparations are of the country, together with the g rant reduction concerned. I do not with to enter more particularly made by the late Government and by lerimer Govern into details, nor do I think it would be de- merits on articles of general consumption. I think any sirable.—(llear, hear.) I should s t a t e , h oweve r, that its attempt to impose a per tentage on those. tax able articles the naval estimates of this year we propose, in confer- would fail in giving you the revenue requir ed.—(Hear, mity with the declaration of last year, to increase the hear.) Any new tax on those articles of c onsumption marines by 3,000, that is to say, to add 1,500 to the wools in my opinion, be very unwise at e.his moment, 1,500 which were voted last year. Then with regard to and much more so if you thought such in crease of tax another point to which I have net keen immediately would not last beyond a short period. s knd for this alluding now, to the estimates of the present year, with reason, that you would have all the difficut ties and em regard to what created a great deal of alarm at one time barrassments consequent upon the prepare Lions for col -namely, the defence of the dockyards and ports, I lectiag and the expense of bringing into co llection a tax should state that that subject attracted the most serious which Wollia be imposed only for a short p !riot]; there attention of the late Government, and was must carefully lore the proposition we have to make is, and I may as examined, and when examined was attended to, a thing well now state it at once—(Hear,hear)—the proposition I must say which had fur some years been greatly we have to make is to renew the press tnt income neglected. looking over what had been :pent during tax from April next, when it would otherwise the last few years since 1844, he found that on Ports- expire, for a period of five years—(Cries: of " Ob, mouth was spent 101,2101. ; Plymouth and Devonpori, oh)—and that the House should vote an in -57,000/.; Penabroke,33,633/.; Sheerness, 70,876/.; making crease of that tax from 7d. to 1s in the a total of 262,7961., of which 54,0001. was for the pound, or from three to five per cerV.s for a _ _ purchase of land. I believe that the fortifications which have been erected were made by skilful ergi• neers. I know that the Commander-in Chief, the Duke of Wellington, and the Master-General of the Ordnance inspected them last 3 . ear, and the Duke of Wellington assured me that he was perfectly satisfied with what was doing. With regard to the army it should be stated that, although we do not propose the increase of a single man in the estimates, and although there apt-ears a diminution, yet the number of men in the United Kingdom will be very materially increased by the number of regiments returning from India. I cannot put down the number that will arrive during the present spring and summer at less than 5,000, and it may pos sibly be more than that. The reduction of the army in India has been accomplished by the care and economy of Sir Henry Hardinge, who, after terminating the conflict by his skill and courage, determined, %hen peace had been restored, to place the finances in such a condition as to secure the credit of the Go- vernment, and he therefore tuck upon himself the unpopular task of retrenchmcut.—(Hear, bear, and cheers.) I may state perhaps in this place, that with all this reduction, the peace of India was never so well secured. We have there, after all these returns, an army of 240,000 men, of whom 28,000 are Europeans; and this, too, after having reduced the expenditure by the amount of a million sterling.—(hear, hear.) The effect of all this will be considerably to increase the number of men in this country during the present year, so that the number of rank and file in the United King dom, being at present 55,000, will be increased, I ex pect, to GO,OOO in the course of the summer. I believe it is a long time since there was so large a force in the United Kingdom, It is not produced by proposing an increased vote, but partly by bringing men home from the colonies,—a regiment from the West Indies, and some others,—and it will, no doubt, be increased by a regiment from the Cape, as Sir Harry Smith has pro mised that the return regiment, which e as lately detained there, should be immediately sent home. The number of men in the United Kingdom has been increased by more than 20,000 since the year I mentioned, 1835. I will not detain the House with details, as on the army estimates the Secretary at War will explain them fully. The amount of increase for the army is 43,0001., but with regard to the ordnance we propose a more consi derable increase. It has appeared to us that with respect to the infantry of an army you may make rapid increase, but that with respect to the artillery and the corps of sappers and miners, they form a description of force which you could hardly make efficient under a training of eighteen months or two years. Taking that view of the question we proposed last year, and we propose again in the present year, an increase in the number of the artillery and the sappers and miners. The increase we propose to make in the first vote is 99,0001., which will give an increase of 400 sappers and miners, and 1,451 royal artillerymen the total increase being 1,90::. We also propose to make an increase, and a consider able one, in the ordnance estimates, under the head of stores. From the statement of the Master- General of the Ordnance, who I desired to lay fully before the House all the particulars of the charges connected with his department, it appears that :an increased supply of small arms, and an additional stuck of gunpowder will be absolutely necessary during the present year—these being articles which, in case of war suddenly breaking out, we could not depend upon ob taining an adequate supply of immediately, and there fore it is necessary we should make provision be:ore hand. The increase in the estimates will be, therefore, in the Ordnance 245.0001.—in the Navy Estimates, for naval purposes, 70,0001., and in the army the increase will be 43,000/.; making a total addition of 358,0001. There is another species of force with respect to which we propose to lay a measure before the House in the course of the present session, and with regard to which I also propose to take a vote for a sum of money in the estimates I am now laying before you. However effi cient that amount of force connected with the three ser vices I have named is, it is to be considered—amongst the chances of a war, the remote chances if you will— but it is always to be considered possible that an enemy might land on our shores, and you would then have to garrison Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the other dock yards, and places of defence on our coasts. It does not appear that your number of 60,000—large as that number is as compared with the force you hare had at your command in former years—would altogether suffice for the purpose of garrisoning those places, and at the same time leave you a sufficient disposable force for the general defence of the eountry.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, the force to which the country has in former times been in the habit of looking in aid of the regular army for the purposes of internal defence—and it . has always been stated to be the constitutional force of this country —(Hear, hear)—and one that has been kep t up in former times in periods of peace—a force, too, which was the favourite one of perhaps the grea test man this cpuntry ever produced—Lord Chatham—(Hear) —is the militia force.---(Cheers.) I am aware that ditlicultiesattach to this subject now w hich did not formerly exist. The habits of the country are so changed that in dealing with this question you find yourselves placed between these two difficulties. If you take substitutes, such are the migratory habits of the lower classes that y ou cou ld not depend upon having them when wanted, w hil e , on t h e o ther hand, it you refused substitutes you would be im posing on the people a hardship in respect to military service to which they have n ever b sen accustome d, and which would be galling and distasteful to them.— (Hear.) Such are the difficulties with which this ques tion is beset. We shall propose such a measure, How er!, as appears to us to be b es t calculated to meet these ffi diculties ; and I am most anxious that that measure should be considered by the House, and, should it be approve d of on :the second reading, that its provisions should be fully discussed in Committee as to whether the measure is one which is in every way fitted for the pre sent circumstances of the country. It will be for the House to decide whether a militia force is one that can and ought to be raised under their present circumstances. It you can make it practicable, I believe it is correct In principle, as it is, I know, useful in a national point of view, to have a portion of the people trained to the use of arms, who, in case of hostilities, might be brought together, and marched at once to any s p ot that might be threatened. i And, though there are many reasons in favour of such a force, still, should the House nut at once conclude that it would be desirable now t o establish a militia force, that measure might, nevertheless, afford the means next year, or in future years, of providing such an ex tension of the regular military force of the country a s should ensure us at all times a sufficient force to oppose against any enemy who threatened to invade us.—(Hear, hear.) I propose, therefore, to take a vote of 130,000/. in the estimates of the present year for the purpose o f hiying the foundation of this military force. I have stated what are the difficulties of the case, and I have only to add that I shall be most happy to have the I assistance of the House in coming to such a conclusion - period of two years.— (Murmurs of dissont from various puts of the House.) And now, Sir, It will state, without going into the argument on the s adject, that considering the very great distress which f,or the last two years has prevailed in Ireland—considerin g too, that you did not originally in 1842 impose this tax upon Ireland—taking into account also the very gr eat strug gles now making in order to adapt the social condition of Ireland to the great changes which have is ken place in that country, and that all classes—lancilm . ds in the improvement of land, and farmers in the pa yment of wages—arc required to take part in that great; change-- taking these things into,consideration, we thin k--though fully admitting in the abstract the justice of imposing this tax upon Ireland, as well as upon Englan d—(Hear, hear)-1 say, though fully admitting the justice of that proposition—(Bear, hear) —we consider that t his is not the moment for extending the income-tax to that country.—(Cheers from the Irish Members, and cries of " Oh, oh," from other parts of the H:ouse.) I must beg Gentlemen, when they come to that argu went, a little to consider that we have not only . to delicerate ou what may be abstractedly fair and just with regard to the imposition of taxes in England and Ireland, but that we have likewise to take into account the fact that the prosperity of the whole of the United Kingdom is bound up together, and that if you check the exertions Ireland is making to place hernelf in a state of future prosperity, you in fact place a check upon the prosperity of the United Kingdom gencrally.— (Hear, hear.) But if, on the other hand, you refrain from imposing upon Ireland burdens which she might at the moment be unable to meet, reserving them until she is more equal to bear them—(Laughter)—you do provide for the prosperity of England and Scot.- land, as well as Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) We propose, therefore, to take the income-tax exactly . as it has been imposed in past years ; on the same prin ciple on which it was originally proposed and defended by Mr. Pitt ' • on the same principle on which it was afterwards increased by Lord Grenville and by Lord Lansdowne—(Cheers and laughter)—and on the same principle on which it was again imposed and defended by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir IL Peel).—(Derisive cheers.) I am aware that I voted against that tax when it was proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman—(lmmense cheering)—and I hold that I was perfectly right in so doing.—(Hear, and a laugh.) I know, too, that I voted for it in 1845—(Hear, hear) — and I neither regret the vote I gave in 1842, nor that which I afterwards gave in 1845.—(Hear, hear.) My Right Hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. F. T. Baring) said, in the discussion upon the question in 1845, " The question in 1842 was, whether you would continue other taxes—whether you would diminish protective duties, or impose an income-tax. You have taken your course, and now, in 1845, it would be, I think, inexpedient to repeal that tax, or allow it to fall, for the purpose of imposing other taxes." I think my Right Honourable Friend was right in that view, and that was the principle on which I supported the measure of 1845, and on which I now bring forward the present proposition. On looking at this question, may I esk for a short time the attention of the House to the great reductions which have been made Irons time to time in the duties on such articles as come into the consumption of the great body of the people. Adam Smith said there were three or four taxes on the necessaries of life, and he mentioned candles, leather, coals, and soap; the duties on these four articles have been taken off. lie stated also that the taxes on malt and beer were equal to about twenty-five or twenty-six per cent. on the malt. That that tax has beenconsiderably reduced is well known. The tax on salt amounted yearly to 1,490,0001.; on candles, 482,0004; coals (brought coast wise), 958,0001.; leather, 600,0001; beer and cyder, 3,080,0001.; glass, :647,0004; sugar, 2,300,0001.; butter and cheese, 112,000/.; and you may add, taking the average of the last five years, the duties on grain and meal, which will be taken off next February, 862,0001.; the whole amounting to 10,543,0004 of yearly taxes removed from articles entering into consumption by the great body of the people. In addition to this, it must not be forgotton that there are very many articles now admitted which were formerly prohibited, and which I have omitted. I have, therefore, in this estimate understated the amount. The whole amount of taxes taken off since the peace, deducting the income-tax and all other taxes which have been imposed during that time, are equal to a reduction of taxation of not less than 39,705,341/. a year. I do not think, therefore, when such has been the diminution of taxation, that we are now asking too much of the House when we call upon them for a temporary increase of the present di rect taxation, in the face of the circumstances of almost unparalleled difficulty which have occurred during the past year, and with a view of keeping up our establish ments, I trust not extravagantly, not inordinately, but with a view to the permanent maintenance and defence of the country. The result would be an expenditure as I have stated, of 54,596,500/., and an income of 51,250,0004 increased by the income-tax, which I take at an amount less than I might take it if there had not been so much commercial distress, namely, at 3,500,0004, so as to make the total income 54,750,000/. There is one tax which presses very severely upon one species of industry, which sins against those principles you have of late years adopted, and which might be taken off without that great diminution of revenue which the reduction of the duty on tea, or the removal of the window-tax, eould inflict. I allude to the tax upon copper ore lell• posed in 1842 upon the ground that it was to be ad mitted at a small duty, instead of smelting in bond, and that that duty would not produce any serious effect. Now although the duty was considered small, the effect of it, or if not the effect of it, the concomitant effect, had been that smelting has been performed in Chid, where it had not been used before, and the smelting establishments in this country have in consequence greatly suffered. I do not think that the towners of copper mines would be injured if we took off this small duty, while by doing so we would remove those ob stacles whicn impede the prospects of smelting from resuming their favourable aspect. Repealing that tax, which I take at 41,0001., the amount it was last year, we should have 54,750,000/. of revenue and 54,637,0001. as the expenditure, leaving a surplus of 113,000/. That surplus, I must again observe, would be considerably larger but for the extraordinary expenditure of 1,100,0001, and 'would have enabled us to take off other taxes which press heavily on the people. Although I stated that I should confine myself to an outline, I have been obliged to enter considerably into detail both as regards the diminution of revenue, and the estimates we propose for meeting it. I have done so with the view of laying those estimates fairly before the House, that the House might make up its mind calmly and deliberately upon the subject. We might have asked for the navy and army estimates, showing a small increase, and postponed our statement at a later period; butt think it is due to the House of Commons that they should know fully what is the question before SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time : Barrow Harbour; Battle-bridge and Holloway-road Act Repeal ; Brighton Gas-light and Coke Company; Bristol Docks Transfer; Clerkenwell Improvement; Dundalk, Castle Blayney, and Carrickmacross-roads; Lambeth Waterworks; Leeds Improvement Act Amendment; Low's Patent; Middle Level Drainage Acts Amendment ; Payne's Patents (Improvements in preserving Vegetable Matters) ; Sufferance Wharves (Southwark) ; and Worcester New Gas-light Company (additional Capital and Amendment). Tw• new Members took the oaths and their seats. GLASGOW WATERWORKS. Mr. M(GREGOR presented a petition against this Bill. HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL. Mr. THORNELY presented a petition in favour of this Bill ; as also did Mr. GRANGER. JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL. Petitions in favour of this Bill were presented by Mr. Thornley, Mr. G. Thompson, Sergeant Tal fourd, an Hon. Member from Essex, and Mr. Adair, from Ipswich. - NAVIGATION LAWS. Sir T. BIRCH presented a petition, signed by 7,500 of the merchants of Liverpool, in favour of these laws. THE PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Mr. GEORGE THOMPSON presented a petition from the Tower Hamlets in favour of the repeal of the punishment of deatb ; as also from the Society of Friends in Reading. THE DEFENCES OF THE COUNTRY. Petitions against any additio n to the defences of the country were presented by Mr. C o bd en , M r. G . Thompson, and Mr. Williams. REPEAL OF TIIE WINDOW -TAX. Mr. WILLIAMS and Mr. WAxLET presented peti tionsHE CHARTER. in favour of the repeal of this tax. Mr. ADAIR presented a petition from the wor ki n classes of Ipswich in favour of the Charter. g THE TEA DUTIES. Mr. PILKINGTOIN presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Blackburn in favour of the repeal of these duties. EDUCATION. Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition against the Government scheme of education. THE ODD FELLOWS. Mr. C. LUSHINGTON presented three petitions from three societies of Odd Fellows, one of which called themsel ves " Jclly Buffers, " an announcement which excited naWI laughter, c om pl a i n i ng th a t th e 29th of CHESTER, AND HOLYHEAD RAILWAY. Mr. OSBORNE wished to know what steps had been taken by the Government with respect to a re cent accident on the Chester and Holyhead Railway, by the giving way of one of the bridges upon that line of railway ? Mr. LABOUCHERE said that inquiries had been instituted upon the subject, the result of which would be laid upon the table of the House in a few days. THE BUDGET. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER, the house thin went into a Committee of Supply. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having then, pro forma, moved a vote of eight millions, Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to make the annual fi nancial statement. He said—l feel my strength so unequal to perform adequately the important task I have undertaken, that I believe I shall best discharge that duty by laying before the House an outline of the finan cial policy of the country, leaving to future discussion the greater part of the arguments which may be required to enforce that policy, and to recommend the conclusions which I shall propose to the Committee to adopt. I shall, therefore, proceed at once by reminding the Com mittee that the year which has passed over our heads, or I should perhaps rather say the last eighteen months, have been a period which, except in cases of foreign war and domestic insurrection, have been without a parallel I think I may say in the history of this country.—(Hear, hear.) The changes, the vicissitudes of prices, the difficul ties of commerce, the panic which more than once has pre• vailed, the extreme physical distress of one portion of the United Kingdom, and the extraordinary efforts made to relieve that distress, have altogether affected the condi tion of this country to a degree wholly unprecedented in its annals. (Hear.) To give merely a notion of these vicissitudes I will refer to the changes in prices of wheat, to the changes in the rate of commercial discount at the Bank of England, and to the changes in the amount of bullion held by that establishment. In the first week of September, 1846, the average price of wheat was 493.; in January, 1847, the average price was 705.; in the week ending May 29, 1847, it was 1035.3 d.; on the Bth of September following, it had fallen to 495. Gd., being only sixpence difference between it and the average price in the previous September, but more than one, hundred per cent. difference from the price which ruled in the preceding May. The rate of dis count—the lowest allowed at the Bank—was in No vember, 1846, 3 per cent.; in April, 1847, it was raised to 5 per cent.; in October, 1847, the lowest rate of in terest charged by the Bank was 8 per cent. ; and in January, 1818, it was again 4 per cent. The amount of bullion held by the Bank on the 10th of October, 1846, was 15,787,3501. ; in October, 1847, it was only 7,865,4451., and again on sth February, 1848, it was 13,821,8542 Now, lam referring to these changes, not with the view, at present, of speaking either of the causes which may have produced them, or of the reme dies which, from time to time, have been proposed in Parliament for some of the more aggravated symptoms of these calamities; I refer to them merely for the pur pose of showing to the House how great the changes in our position have been, and how much such changes mast have affected the revenue of the country. It is obvious, in the first place, that there could not have been such great vicissitudes in the price of corn, without very much affecting the consumption of exciseable goods, both by the agricultural and by the commercial classes.—(Hear, hear.) This, likewise, is shown by another return, exhibiting the number of hands em ployed at Manchester, at full time and at short time, and unemployed, at the different periods to which I have referred. On the 16th of February, 1847, the number of hands employed, full time, was 21,698 ; on the 2d of November, the number had fallen to 14,861; on the Bth of February, 1848, the number had risen to 32,146. The number of bands employed short time was, on the 16th of February, 1847, 13,404 •, on the second of November, 1847, 16,578 ; on the Bth of February, 1848, 4,901. The number of hands unemployed was, on the 16th of February, 5,600 ; on 2d November it had risen to the enormous extent of 11,616 ; on the Bth of February, 1848, it had fallen to 7,500. I think the House will be of opinion that it was impossible for such changes to take place, for such dis tress to be felt, and for the revenue from excise duties not to be very much affected by such a state of things.— (Hear, hear.) The commercial vicissitudes to which I have referred must: also have affected the customs' re ceipts to a very considerable extent. When in April, and again in October, 1847, there was so wide-spread and so great discredit—a discredit amounting to panic —that no man was sure what bills he could take up, and the greatest commercial houses, even though not in actual danger of stopping, were at least compelled to undergo the greatest privations, it was inevitable that there must be most extreme embarrass ments in trade, and that merchants would countermand, as they did countermand, orders they had given to foreign merchants, and would require payment to be made to them in bullion, or other shape, other than goods; and the equally inevitable result of this would be that the trade of the country would be materially paralyzed, and that the revenue would suffer severely, as it had suffered.—(Hear, hear.) I will allude here to ' a statement of Mr. Huskisson, in July, 1617, after the country had suffered from the misfortune of a defi cient harvest, and there had been a consequent defi ciency in the revenue. " The falling off of 10 per cent. in a revenue of fifty millions," said the Right Hon. Gentleman, "is not to be wondered at, when we con sider the scarcity of provisions and the want of full employment for the people;" so that the Right Hon. Gentleman regarded a deficiency of 10 per cent. in a revenue of fifty millions as a deficiency at which no man could be surprised, under the circumstances. Having thus stated this general case, to the details of which I will not further allude, because every Hon. Gentleman in the House must have fully in his memory the state of alarm which at different times prevailed, and the discussions which have already taken place here on the subject, having, I say, stated thus mach, I will now go on to state that which I think is due to the present Government to state, especially after the gross misapprehensions which have been spread abroad. The Right Hon. Gentleman who held the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer in the late administration, made, be fore he went out of office, a statement marked by the ability and plainness which usually characterised his financial explanations, a statement of course, applying only to the year of which he was speaking, the Ei g h t Hon. Gentleman manifestly not taking into his estimate for that year the sums which would naturally fall under the next year, which sums happened tolbe very consider. able. In the first place, with reference to some of the military estimates, the Right Hon. Gentleman only took three-fourths of the year, owing to certain changes in the mode of keeping the particular accounts ; and, in the next place, there were several sums voted which were considered as compensations for the change in• the corn-laws, and of which the burden did not fall on that year. In the following 'year—that is, last year, there was an increase in the estimates, as compared with the year 1846-7, of 93 2,7001. ; but then the services unprovided for in 1846 7, and which fell upon 1847-8, involved a charge of 6 28,5001., so that the actual increase in the estimates of last year was not 932,7001., but only 304,2001. The ab p le r t e een s r e a n at veryo n Government, in gtr heeats u increasegi,r in d ut t i h ei e ns ythtehaeer revenue resultb efore elast,derived hv m ei cd a hd from rh a a md n those sugar duties. In 1845, the revenue derived from the sugar dutie s was 3,574,000/ ; in 1846, 3,E73,000/. ; and in 1847, 4 ,414,0001., exhibiting an increase, as com pared with 1845, of, in round numbers, 840,0004 and, comp un a d r e r r e t d h e w h i e t a n d 0 18 f 4 the 6 , sugar fg6a4r duties,l ,78 0/.— d i ( d H t c h e e r, r , e hear.) in Tas c h r u e s se concurrently with a diminished impost upon 1 I ~.