The Sun. — London, England, 1848-08-17 00:00:00

or a re ith a ;Lion 10MC hick rrom let !dia ) in nent me- Ilion pro re is hick i tho )lex- ition body ettle e in say- ance Ma- the de nted, elves not does 3 not , un- they from ession nvade s the i to be when asked in the rading to the lother !stion; )n and ?mean :e with )f that but i n the years if it u take aintry, F those rred-- , en the ❑turies s pent nweet ;abech, VOU r of a real patriotism, and fierce with the very recollection of its des ecra t e d h eart h s. Sh e must mee t even more than that Germany. She must meet Russia, at this moment not so powerful from her armies as from her moderation, her wisdom, and her justice.—(hear, hear.) And hole is France to send out those armies ? flow is she to throw herself in immediate hostility with Germarly an with Russia? Why, ever y secon d ar y power in Europe Would be prepared, under such circumstances, to meet the traditionary outlaw of nations—('lsar, hear)—en gaged in quarrel without law, justice, or necessity.-- (Hear, hear.) How is France to act in this frantic manner? What is her position at this moment to enable her to send out those mighty hosts to conquer t .e " whole world in arms?" She has 50,000 men guarding her metropolis. She has achieved a freedom upon paper,e)r' and it is secured in her streets by her artillery.—(Hear, hear.) She has 50,000 men encamped at Lyons. She' bag an army of occupation in every great city;, Where, unde to under thy: Plausible name of " extraordinary garrisons. conquer Italy are those two invading hosts that are Italy and Germany, to prevent whose appearance the Noble Lord i s go i ng to enter into mock mediations artificial alliances, factitious underst anding ; r s,ah a nd mediati ons , ocr incur artificial therights of our allies ? Why, SI •if Trance her army—rather, if France withdraws her domestic legions —to invade the world, the who iht leo e f re h s e t r s o town t t l)t po pulation will rise to advocate the " model republic" which, perhaps i.l her_ll ( l L a Minis ters are going to establish in 11 . 1 an. h j a e u st iht s er ' .) inis ft France increases her armies she increases he r taxes, t t a h x e e they are already enormous andexcessive of her provincial population will march excessive, n P aris , it; order to prevent the continuance of a system whic h is as absurd as it is iniquitous. Nor is this all. If France removes the armies she now possesses , she will have the whole of her urban population in revolt. If she increases those armies, the whole of her provincial popula tion will rise against the oppression of the Govern ment. Torn by domestic factions, with an empty ex chequer, with a paralyzed credit, and a people without enthusiasm, why are you to suppose that France is going to conquer the world?—and why, to prevent that, - are you going to sacrifice your allies? Sir, the system of mock mediation is the system which this country ought not to encourage. The course which the Noble Lord has to pursue, if he wishes to secure the peace of the world, and the greatness of his country, is one which I believe the Noble Lord is quite competent to fulfil, and he has the abilities, the knowledge, and the courage which qualify him to do it. It is not an ad herence to the system of policy which he has pursued before, and which ended only in mortification to himself, and in the destruction of his then ally ; for I believe that the throne of France would never have fallen, had it not been for those forced occasions of mutual co-ope ration which led eventually to mutual distrust and 'dis comfiture. The Noble Lord, I say, has one course only before him ; it is a proper one, and the only one which an English Minister should adopt. Let the Noble Lord merely tell the world that, under his counsels, England Will maintain the principles of national law ; that England will observe the stipulations of existing treaties; that she will not authorise by her sanction any outrage of the rights of nations ; that she will not counsel any of her allies to yield their legitimate interests, in order to gratify the morbid vanity of an ill-regulated society. Then the Noble Lord will take a position which will gain for him the confidence of statesmen, the sympathy of sovereigns, and the hope and trust of su ff ering nations. But if the Noble Lord takes a contrary course—and I am most unwilling to believe he will take that course— it will be a course, I will not say, fatal to his Govern ment, because that will not be so great a consideration ' with the House as it may be in the minds of his imme diate supporters—(A laugh)—though I should be un willing to see that Government disturbed—but it will be a course fatal to his reputation and injurious to his country; and these are considerations which, I am sure, roust influence him. Sir, it is useless to attempt to act in the management of these affairs with the Jacobin Party. I call them the Jacobin:party, although I was called to account by the Hon. Member for Montrose, who said that that name had passed away, and he gave us another. name to describe the party, and which has often been used to describe their system. Sir, I recognise the same features as of yore—l observe the same character of system. It has the same leaven in it, and I therefore use the same name, It is a system which commences with fra ternity, and a n d with assassination. It is a system which begins by preaching universal charity, and con cludes by achieving general spoliation. Sir, I ell not C are who the individual may be, whether it be M. Ledru Rollie, or whether it be the person who shakes hands w ith X Ledru Rollin.—(Laughter.) I cannot recognise people of that kind as the French nation, or as those Persons with whom I would wish my country to be in alliance and cordial understanding. I, Sir, am persuaded that if the Noble Lord pursues this system, it is one that Will, very rapidly, make this country of the same opinion InYself. The Noble Lord may even now act in a M anner that will add to his power, and add even to the greatness and the reputation of this country. He may, in this craven age, assert the principles of public justice will in manner which becomes a British Minister ; and he findlhen that no bandits, whatever may be their in i Position, will cr oss any mounta i ns or i nva d e an y t own s Whentheye know that England is prepared to uphold the . p ti r p of public law, For, Sir, in public as much as 1 that Private m atters, I have seen enough, and I am sure even, TT f ro ,„, Leonourable Gentleman now present must, hinT taajest t P h el l s °,nal experience, have seen enough to convince tioLnoorfc; majesty the long run nothing cm withstand the the law, the force of truth, and the inspira honour•—(Che,rs.) PALMERSTON.—I certainly do not rise to complain, as the Honourable Gentleman who has Just sat down seemed to expect that I should, that this 'louse has, during the present session of Parlia 'tient, exhibited any undue desire to impede the march of her Majesty's Ministers in regard to the conduct of the foreign relations of the country by pressing too hardly upon them for disclosures of the course which th ey mean to pursue, or calling prematurely for ex- Planations as to the course which they may have pur- Su ed durin g the session. I acknowledge , wit h thank -1 f (11/l ess, on my own part, and on the part of the Go vernment, the discreet—l must say the judicious — forbearance which this House has shown in those mat (liear, hear.) Members of this House have, rightly no doubt, considered that the public interest is frequently best consulted by allowing to the Govern ment of the day the free exercise of their own discretion as to delicate and important transactions with respect to foreign countries, reserving to themselves hereafter the function of calling to a strict account, as of right they are entitled , and a s in duty they are bound to do, t los eo rwcheonsseu r cold ( u i conduct may r: appear to deserve investiga tionl therefore am far from coca- Plaining either of the course which has been pursued on former occasions or of the course which on the ,epresent occ asion the H on . G en tl e man h a s th o ught fit to a 4 • lam perfectly rea dy to a d m i t , th a t a t t h e c l ose of a session during which events of the utmost im portance have convulsed Europe from one end to the other, it is a perfectly legitimate exercise of the rights and a legitimate performance of the duties of a Member of this Hou se to express his opinions as the Hon. Gentleman has done, at a moment when, probably, the termination of our labours may not be far distant. :—.(Hear, hear.) Sir, I think the Hon. Gentleman has juded rightly in a pp en di ng th e o b serva ti ons w hi c h he has made, in regard to the policy of this country with respect to Italy, not on the vote pertaining to the particular office held by my Noble Friend the Lord Privy al, but to that office which is responsible for the gene ral conduct of the foreign relations of the country—the Office, namely, which I have the honour to fill.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman seems to be better informed, I think, than he chooses to allow the House to infer from his speech, as to the grounds upon which the mission of my Noble Fri en d th e E ar l o f Minto took place. These grounds were, in some degree, those which the Honourable Gentleman has stated. The facts were these :--Towards the end of the summer, it is well known, in consequence of the altered policy of the then newly-elected head of the Roman Government, prin. ciples of reform and of administrative and constitu tional improvements were spreading fast over the whole surface of Italy. Difficulties were experienced be tween the Governments and the people in regard to the march which those events and those improvements should take. There was no part of Italy in which those diffieuties were more strongly and more urgently felt than in the city of Rome. A communication was made to me, certainly not (as we understood) publicly, but from a most authentic source, conveying to her Ma jesty's Government the anxious desire of the Govern ment of Rome, first that an accredited and official agent Might be sent from this Government to the Government of Rome for the purpose of aiding that Government in the difficult and novel task, which was partly imposed Upon itself and partly pressed upon it by the population; that, iii short, we should send them somebody who, re presenting the Government of England, might give them :friendly counsel and advice in matters in which t hey might wish t o consu l t hi m. It was said that t here might be legal difficulties in complying with that requ es t ; b ut t h at if there were such and if those difficulties could not then be removed, We should be (conferring a great obligation on the Go vernment of Rome if some individual could go there Who, possessing the entire confidence of her Majesty's Government, and pointed out by his attainments and ex perience as a person informed upon ;matters of policy, might be referred to upon occasions on which itshould be wished to consult him ; and that if such a person could combine with those qualifications considerable diplomatic experience, the Government of Rome would be delighted to receive such an individual in his private capacity, and without any official authority. My Noble Friend, Lord Alinto, was at that time upon objects of his own, intend ing to pass a short time in Italy ; and I thought that I could not better comply with the request which had been b lade —that I could not better fulfil those intentions with Which the request had been addressed to us, than by ad 'Wag her Majesty to authorise the Earl of Minto to Proceed to Rome in that unofficial capacity, without any diplomatic character, but simply as a member of her Majesty's Government, possessing, as the Hon. Gentle r_nati has sa id , t h e entire confidence of her M ajesty ' s tiovernment, acting as the eye, the ear, the mind of the Government, capable, from his knowledge of the intentions of the Government, to act upon a !rdden, on any emergency that might present itself'. I thought I could not render a better service to those par ties who might w i s h for our counsel and assistance than i urgii g my Noble Friend to proceed, as be did, upon that mission. A s i m i lar wish appeared to be enter tained by other Govern ments o f I ta l y to procure my Noble Friend's assistance ; he was, therefore, instructed re, - Ctake Turin an d Florence on his way to Rome. To the ourts of Turin and Florence my Noble Friend carried let ters, u accrediting him upon a special mission, if he found J on his ar r i va l t h at i t was the wish of those Govern ments so to receive him; to Rome, of course, he car ried 11° official character, The honourable Gentle- THE SUN, man wishes to know what were the objects which my I Noble Friend had to keep in view; what wes the purpose for which this uncalled-for interference, so he seems to imagine it, was to take plaee. Sir, the interference was not uncalled for; my Noble Friend was to obtrude his advice upon nobody; he was, I if wished for, and if asked to do so, to give such counsel as he could, and to endeavour to remove such difficulties as might be pointed out to him. That was the purpose for which he went to those courts ; and that was the purpose which he successfully accomplished. My Noble Friend, on the one hand, pointed out to the Govern ments that they might trust their people, that they need not fear to confer upon them those constitutional institu tions which it was the object of their subjects to receive; he pointed out, on the other hand, to those who were most ardent in desiring reform, that they would best at tam those national objects which they leeitimately en deavoured to pursue by placing confidence in their Governments, and by not urging them too rapidly to change long-established institutions. At Turin and at Florence my Noble Friend was eminently successful ; and the proof of that is, that great and important changes were made in the institutions of those two states without any convulsion disturbing the public tranquillity, and without any interruption of that harmony between the subject and the Sovereign which we felt that it was so desirable to maintain. My Noble Friend's progress was, I sh ou ld say, almost an ovation—(Hear, and a laugh)—wherever he went he was received with acclama tions by the inhabitants—at every Court he was received with open arms by the Government. At Rome his labours were directed to the same object ; at Rome his labours were attended with the same success.—(Hear.) My Noble Friend, when he left this country, had no mission to go to the Court of Naples ; we had received no communication from Naples asking for our aid ; we (lid not presume to offer that which was nut solicited. But when my Noble Friend was at Rome, a communi cation was made to me by the Neapolitan Minister at this Court, that the Sovereign of Naples would take it as a compliment if my Noble Friend pursued his journey from Rome to Naples. My answer was, " He will go if he is invited ; he has no instructions to go there, but if he receives an invitation through the Queen's Charge d'Affairs at Naples, it will be his duty, as it will be his pleasure, to attend to it ;" and, in conse quence, credentials were sent to him, to be made use of it that occasion should occur. During the unfortunate differences which broke out between the King of Napes and his Sicilian subjects, both the King on the one hand, and his Sicilian subjects on the other, asked for the me diation and intervention of British diplomacy, to endea vour to arrange and settle their disputes ; Lord Minto was invited from Rome to go to Naples ; to Naples he accordingly went, and he employed himself with great diligence and with the :utmost seal in endeavouring to bring about a reconciliation between the King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects, upon conditions which would maintain the Crown of the two countries upon one and j the same head. I shall not go now—it would not be fitting that I should—into minute detail of the circum stances which characterised those negotiations, nor shall j . I advert to more than one event which tended to render them unsuccessful ; but, at the critical period when those negotiations were almost brought to a satisfactory conclusion, there arrived at Palermo the news of the ! revolution at Paris ; and I think the House may easily - conceive that the announcement of an event of that ins portance must have considerable influence upon the minds of men. That led to difficulties on the one side, which were not met by concessions on the other, and the result was, that on the one hand the people of Sicily de clined any longer to acknowledge the King of Naples as their sovereign ; and the King of Naples, on his part, declined to confer the crown of Sicily on one of his sons, to whom that crown was offered. The Hon. Gentleman adverted to the part which her Majesty's Government has taken in the subsequent proceedings of the Sicilians, with a view to elect another prince to be their sove reign ; that choice, made by the Sicilians, was purely and entirely spontaneous ; theychose the prince to whom an offer has since been made entirely on their own judgment of what would in their opinion be best for the interests of their country. It is imma terial whether that opinion coincided with the opinion of her Majesty's Government or not; at the time when that choice was made it was made entirely from their own impulse, and as the result of their own judgment. Undoubtedly her Majesty's Government, accepting as they do facts and events, have signified that they would be prepared to acknowledge tho sovereign whom the Sicilians might choose, when that sovereign should be actually in possession of the territories to which the voice of the people might call him.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman wants to know what is the intention of her Majesty's Government in regard to the employment of the naval force of this country now stationed in the Mediterranean, in respect to any expedition which the Government of Naples may fit out and send forth. I am sorry I can only follow in the steps of my Noble Friend sitting near me and of my Noble Friend in the other House, and say that it is!not the practice in this country—nor do I think it would be expedient with re ference to the public interest to establish the practice— to announce what are the intentions of the Government with regard to events which are taking place on the con tinent of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever our course may be, we are prepared to defend and justify it—it will he for the House to determine whether or not we have acted properly. Thus much I think I may state with regard to the policy which the Government pursued in respect to the affairs of Italy, as connected with the mission of my Noble Friend Lord Minto— that that mission was founded on the most disinter ested motives—that the motives which led to that mission had in them nothing that wits sordid, or base, or selfish, or ungenerous, and that the only British interest which could be served by that mission was the interest which England, as a great power, has in persevering peace in other countries, and of assisting, when invited to do so, in forwarding the progress of civilization and improvement, and in promoting the happiness and well being of the world.—(Hear, hear) The Hon. Gentle man has adverted to more recent events which have taken place in the north of Italy, and has expressed an opinion that the mediation which this country has en gaged in, with respect to the present state of affairs in that part of Italy, in conjunction with France, is a media tion savouring of the nature of un impertinent interference, without object and incapable of leading to any result. I can only say that the mediation in question is not the re sult of any spontaneous and intrusive desire of this country to meddle in, matters with which we have no concern, but, on the contrary, is the result of the earnest en treaties and applications made to us by all the parties directly or indirectly concerned in the transaction, (hear, hear.) It is the result of wishes expressed both at the beginning and the end by Austria.—(Hear, hear.) I say it is the result of wishes expressed by Austria at the outset of the Italian troubles and repeated not three days Gove r a n g at o e ; n i t t o i f s s t a he rd i r a e t s a u l ant ( d )t b w y m t h h e e s p expressed I t b a y i y : t h i e t is the result of wishes expressed by the Government of France—(Hear, hear) —and I must say, that if, in answer to all these wishes so expressed, we had obsti rwsae should telyand doggedly refused eed the our censure mediation,whtlehthtihnek Honourable Member conceives hi mself entitled to throw upon us for the course which we have pursued. The Government of Austria at the beginning , as I have said, asked for our good offices, and, as lately as the 9th of August, at Frankfort, and on the kith of August here, that Government renewed the expression of its desire that we should take part in the settldment of these affairs. On the other hand, the Government of France was urgently entreated by the opponents of Austria to interpose military assistance in aid of the Italian cause. The Hon. Gentleman says that France has no right to intermeddle in the quarrel. That is the question which, perhaps, it is useless for us to discuss here. Whatever may be the views entertained as to the expediency, po licy, and justice of one country interposing in a war waging between other countries, yet, in point of strict right, I apprehend there can be no question that where two nations are at war it is competent to a third party to take which side he pleases, if he choose to engage in the contest. I will not enter into any discussion as to the circumstances under which the war between Sardinia and Austria began. The Hon. Member conceives that it was part of the functions of Lord Minto to prevent Austria from attacking Sardinia in the course of last year. That was no part of Lord Minto's mission. It was part of his Lordship's mission to in duce the Sardinian Government to abstain from hostili ties against Austria, which, at that time, the Austrian Government apprehended, although under circumstances totally different from those under which the Sardinian army subsequently took the field. At that time there was no revolt at Milan, and Austria was in undisturbed possession of the whole of her Italian provinces ; but the Austrian Government having professed to entertain apprehensions of the hostile intentions of the King of Sardinia, the British Government did urge that mo narch to abstain from the attempts which he was alleged to have in contemplation. When the late military events took place in the north of Italy, the Government of France was urgently requested to afford instant military aid to the Italian cause. The Hon. Gentleman who maintains that it is, and ought to be, and has been, subject only to partial exceptions, the standing rule for this country to be on a footing of intimate friendship and general co-operation with France—the Hon. Gen tleman, who believes that to be the policy of England, has been rather unfortunate in the manner in which, as far as he is Concerned, he endeavoured to give effect to the community of good feeling between the two countries.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I fully admit the soundness of the Honourable Member's doctrine however I may lament the practice by which he endea vours to carry it into effect—(A laugh)—and therefore I wish myself to forget, and I hope - that the French na tion may forget, if possible, those parts of the Hon. Gentleman's speech which I think were not calculated to promote union and cordiality between France and this country; for if the Hon. Gentleman had intended, as I am sure he did not, to rouse the bitter jealousy of a great nation, and, by wounding its pride, to dare it to do, and thus to produce the very result which he professes toh° d think i n j ur i ous to t h e great i nterests o f E urope an d e c a a n u l se r o on f c o iv f i n li s z t a i t o i n on al , h a e ni c m ou os ld itt n es ot rn h o a re ve b t i l t ir te o r wninto the ingre dients, more poisonous drugs, than he infused into his s sp w e e e r ch in u d p e o t n atl th w i h s a o t c t c h a e sio l n io — n (C m h e e m er b s e .) r ha l s w s i t l be cause I will not run the ie h ris . le of pointing !. tt n e o d t , an sharply the h those who thi n k with him still more Hon. Gentleman w is much mistaken, and shaft he has au in s bilsenrcrhoer,di;f they y t fancy that th ere i s of take e F p r a a r race tin w an h y ich m hosti le oper a ti on w hi c h t h e Govern mentanytng in the present condition and peopl e of th ) at coeusntriyt m im a p y o b ss e ib d l e e sir f o o u r her to desirous ofem ak e b r a r r o k r in t g ha i n n. -- to ( s C up h p ee o r s e e . that recent events have disarmed the th her oeoccasions, a right legions sons, hand fova oft eurtuh F ne r i taAendlcpesG, There could not be a more fatal a e t nh s t he cannot now pour Government she uua as an d d one on former determine on placing h er i n a position of h ehostility u 1 d t 0- wards any Power b e y on d t h ose limits.—(C he ers.) Let bus not the House imagine, th en , th at any vain phantom created uneasiness and alarm on the part of tho Govern, ment. I confess that we did feel that any interference by arms on the part of France in the affairs of Italy would be pregnant with all those dangers which the Hon. Gentleman has not shadowed out, but graphically (1- - scribed in all their magnitude ; for instance, the Hon. Gentleman said that if France should send an army into Italy she must also send another to the Rhine—that if Germany took the field against France, Russia would follow in her footsteps. What would that be but an universal European war—a conflagration extendindfrom one end of Europe to the other, and involving in its destructive consequences the most disastrous results to humanity and the progress of civilization ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But when the French Govern ment said to us, " We are pressed to interfere by arms in the cause of Italy, but we do not wish to involve our country in a war—we are willing to endeavour to settle matters by mediation if you will assist us—it must be a, joint effort; that will remove all ground of jealousy, for no one can suppose that England entertains hostile views with respect to Austria; whatever France and England do in conjunction must be a work of peace; it must have the termination of hostilities for its object —upon these grounds we hope you will interfere con jointly with us, and, at least until we obtain your an swer, we will suspend our decision as to the adoption of other measures;"—l say, that when the British Govern ment was addressed in this manner it would have been most blameable if it had not acted immediately in ac cordance with the suggestion of France. Those are the motives which led us to enter into a joint negotiation with France. The principle upon which we have acted is the principle of maintaining the peace of Europe.— (Hear.) The policy and means by which the end is to be attained resolve themselves into questions of detail which I feel it my duty to refuse to snake public at this moment.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman taunted the British Government with the co-operation which has at different times taken place between England and France, and he included within the sweeping range of his artillery, not only our camp, but that of which I see the Right Hon. Leader opposite. The flon. Gentleman taunted us, in the first place, with our interference in the case of Belgium and Holland, the result of which, he said, was the despoiling of an allied sovereign of his un doubted rights. Those who have directed their attention to that case know that the principle on which we acted with respect to it was laid down by our predecessors, under whose administration the conferences were already established which we afterwards conducted during along but ultimately successful negotiation, and our inter ference originally took place at the request of the sove reign whose rights the lion. Gentleman says were set aside in consequence of that interference. It was at the request of the King of the Netherlands that the Govern ment of the Duke of Wellington, in connexion with the rest of the five European powers, undertook con ferences and negotiations, and established an armi stice between the contending parties, which issued in the result alluded to. The Hon. Gentleman says, that the alliance of England and France ought to be the result of events, and that we ought not to invent occasions and create circumstances for it. I quite agree with him; but when, I ask, were occasions invented, and opportunities unnecessarily created ? Is it at the present moment ? Did we create the mighty convulsion which is agitating Europe from one end to the other ? Did we invent the occasion which has led to the common action of England and France? We have acted in this matter in the earnest and anxious hope that the good understanding and action of France and England may prevent the dis turbance of the present time from extending from inter• nal conflict to external war,—in the anxious hope that we may continue to preserve that peace which, with the most trifling exceptions, has lasted, I may say, for up wards of thirty years, but which has certainly, during the last fifteen years, been peculiarly maintained by the good understanding which has prevailed between the Governments of England and France.—(Hear, hear.) For this object we shall be happy to combine with the French Government in endeavouring to extinguish the first sparks of war, wherever they may show themselves, and thus to prevent a conflagration spreading through out Europe. Notwithstanding the Hon. Gentleman's sneers, then, I think that this is conduct of which any Government of England may justly feel proud. As to the particular incidents which the Honourable Gentleman passed over in rapid suecessiou, they are all explicable on the general principle to which I have referred. The Honourable Gentleman is not correct in his history of some of the events to which he alluded—the expedition to Ancona, for instance, which he conceived to be the result of a violent inter ference on the part of the two Governments. The Go vernment of France of that day, at least, was not a Jacobinical Government—it was not the Government which had imported the razrias of Africa into the streets of Paris, but the Government of that Sovereign whose wisdom and moderation the Hon. Gentleman had praised in the highest terms. It is gratifying to find that, in spite of the great events which have disturbed the fabric of society in France—which have altered the Govern ment of that country, and which have brought into power in that country men wholly different from those who have of late years wielded the powers of Govern ment there—in spite of those events, which might have been expected to produce great changes in the national feeling and policy of France, there still exists on the part of those who govern France, and I am happy to say on the part of the majority of the French nation also, a frank, loyal,honest, and enlighteneddesire that the policy of France may find itself in unison with the policy of this country.—(Hear, hear.) I must also say that the events of the last few months show the extraordinary progress which civilization and enlightenment have made in Europe during the last half-century.—(Hear, hear.) The same events which have lately occurred on the continent would, it they had taken place 50 years ago, have involved the whole of Europe in a war of the bitterest nature and of long duration. Now, however, we see, that although in almost every country of Europe events of the most fundamental character have occurred, there still exists in the minds of the majority of men an enlightened and sincere desire for the preservation of external peace. It .is consoling to observe the tone and temper of those who are the organs of the French nation in the present Cabinet. Instead of turning the people loose, as was done at the earlier part of their former re volution, to occupy themselves with the affairs of other countries, they are now bent on restoring and main taining order, and being so occupied, I think they do not deserve the taunting sneers which the lion. Gentle man has applied to them.—(Cheers.) The French Government is anxiously, wisely, earnestly, and cour rageously employed in establishing order, it is working for the prosperity of the French nation and consolidating o France anonecsciate,t conduct aisoic nnt sincere, t. does eo_r:(e, it and e h ei adr o r honour aoodhruaertpahtrt the preservation tAo the honourables m the liberties of that country, and I think such a course who are engaged in it, whatever may have been their previous opinions or a g a of f h n lo eu n the h world, so 'long will the efforts which they make be purposes.— (Hear, hear.) It is impossible that two nations like England and France should unite together for any pur poses which cannot be avowed 'in the face of all man kind. The purpose for which they gether is one of that description; and a l re t n ru o s w t a i c n ti h ng to their efforts may be successful. I trust that the heaven n l influence of these two great nations, co-operating for m the purpose of promoting the happiness and tranquillity of mankind, may be successful. At all events, our efforts will he steadily and zealously directed to that end, and w hether we succeed or fail, I am persuaded that the de liberate judgment of Parliament and the unanimous opinion of the country will be, that we have acted right in 'staking the endeavour.—(Cheers.) Mr. H. BAILLIE considered that the discussion had not been in vain if it had been productive of no other re sult than that of calling attention to the foreign affairs of the country. For the Noble Lord the Foreign Secre gelapneadceaodf was, it now appeared; not satisfied with utterly nary rs to make a satisfactory ar rangement in the instance of Spain d r u s ,a , and ions from one end of rendering the name of England o t he was about to try his the Peninsula to the other, hand in the affairs of Italy, and embark England in the chaotic sea of trouble that existed in that country. Under these circumstances the House was justified in asking the Noble Lord, as regards Spain, whether the friendly relations that previously existed between both countries should be renewed; and whether England was still con• sidered to be bound by the quadruple treaty, which had never 'answered its purpose, but which, on the contrary, had served as a constant pretext for interfe rence on the part of England and France in the affairs of the Peninsula. The Noble Lord had told the House that the object of the Treaty of the Quadruple Alliance was to assist the establish ment of liberal governments in Spain and Por tugal. But had it accomplished that object? On the contrary, was not the most violent, arbitrary, and illegal Government that ever existed established in those coun tries? Taking the case of Portugal last year—the state of that country was brought before Parliament by the Hon. Member for Montrose, when the Queen of that country asked the assistance of England under its provi sions against her own subjects. There was, indeed a new Cortes assemhled, and the Cabralists were nominally excluded, but the tools of the Cabralists were there, and did the work of oppression effectually. In Spain there ;ore three parties—the Carlist party, the moderado party, and the progressist party, of which the Carlist party was the strongest, numbering among its ranks the majority of the nobility and all the clergy, and nearly all the rural peasantry. lie assimilated the Carlist party to the Tory party in England, the moderado to the Whig, and the progressist to the radical. The progressist party had for a while been k e pt i n power by the Influence and money of England, but when these were withdrawn the moderado t e moderado party came into office, which they had retained ever since. It was said by the p re • Ge neral Narvaez was a mere madman; but t s he s had that cient method in his madness to Put down adsuffi cient insurrec tion and to keep in effect ua l check thatpro gressist party which the Nobl e L or d had taken under his charge. He contended t h at the in terference of the British Government in th e affairs of Spain had been productive of the establishment there of a more grinding and oppressive tyranny than had ever before prevailed there. In reference to the circums stances which led to a cessation of diplomatic inter course between this country and Spain, he certainly considered that the Spanish Government had acted with very great indiscretion; but on the other hand, the charges which'they brought against our Minister at the Court of Madrid, and which our Government had re fused to entertain, were of, a most grave character. Sir Henry Bulwer himself did not deny one of the very gravest of these charges, that of having received into his house the progressist leaders who had been con spiring against the de facto Government of Spain, a course which clearly rendered him liable, under the law " of nations, to the expulsion to which he had been stab jected. Suppose the parallel case of the Spanish Am bassador here receiving, fostering, and encouraging Messrs. Mitchel, O'Brien, Duffy, &c.: would not the English Government have thought itself distinctly ;, 11s . tified in at once directing the Spanish Minister so sills conducting himself to quit this country within four and twenty lio.urs? Ile regretted that the evidence D. this LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, AUGUST 17, 1848. matter had not been laid on the table of the House, so as to place the real facts of the case before the country and before Europe, and to cast the blame on the shoul ders really entitled to bear it. Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Committee rep in pro;:ress. and leave to sit again. The House then restnud, the Chairman reported pro gress, and obtained leave to sit again at five o'clock. The House then adjourned, at Half-past Three, until Five o'clock. The Srza.xert resumed the Chair at Five o'clock. SECULAR EDUCATION. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from a place near Manchester, praying for a general system of secular education, unaccompanied with the embarrassments of public instruction. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Warwick, against the Charitable Trusts Bill. ARMY REGULATIONS. Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to ask the Right II on. the Secretary-at-War whether officers who had distinguished themselves in the army, but who had since 501;( nut, would he allowed to wear their uniforms upon public occasions? ivlr. FOX MAULE said the privilege applied only to majors and lieutenant-colones who had received the honour of being made Knights Commanders of the Bath, and its extension to other officers rested entirely with her Majesty. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. GROGAN said, about ten years ago a con siderable sum of money was voted by the House for the erection of colleges in Ireland, for the education of the middle classes of that country. These colleges were in a very forward state, and he believed some of them would be opened early next year. Now it was obvious that any improvement in the social condition of the people would depend upon the education to be given in these colleges, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would readily understand the anxiety which prevailed in Ireland to know the nature of the discipline and system of education that would be pursued in these colleges. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was the opinion of the Government that the object which Parliament had in view in making a grant for those colleges would not be accomplished unless they were open to Roman Ca tholics and Presbyterians, as well as to persons belong ing to the Established Church. At present, the statutes were not considered altogether perfect, but they were now under consideration, and as soon as they were finally settled he should have no objection to lay them before the House. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. The House was informed that their Lordships have agreed to the following Bills:—Militia Ballots Sus pension—Walsall Improvement (No. 2), without amend ment—Great :Western Railway (Loop Line from the Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway through Leamington)—Great Western Railway (Birmingham and Oxford Junction, &c., Railways Purchase)—Man cheater, Buxton, Matlock, and Midlands Junction Rail way (Deviation and Branch), with amendments. SLAVE TRADE. Mr. URQUHART rose to move, " That from the correspondence laid upon the table of this House in re ference to the suppression of the slave trade in Mus sulmun countries, it appears that her Majesty's servants have adopted proceedings calculated to ag gravate the horrors of the traffic, and to alienate from this country the (good will of the Governments and nations so interfered with." It was the bounden,duty of the Government, to the best of its ability, to put an end to the traffic in slaves. Now, he was prepared to show, in the words of his motion, that " the proceedings of the Government had aggravated the horrors of the traffic." The Hon. Gentleman, amid a buzz of conversation which rendered his observations almost inaudible, was understood to say that he made this motion in consequence of the correspondence which had been laid on the table during the previous week, and he hoped to prove how very injurious and inefficient had been all our diplomatic efforts for the suppression of' the slave trade in Turkey, Persia, and other Mussulmen countries. We had threatened them with confiscation, and had even entered into discussions with their doc".ors relative to their laws; and yet, he maintained, that with afl these vexatious proceedings the cause of slavery abo lition had not advanced one jot. The Honourable Member proceeded to read lengthy extracts from Lord Ponsonby's dispatches, the purport of which was, that notwithstanding all our negotiations, Turkey had re fused to declare the slave trade piracy. Also from our diplomatic agent in Persia, to a similar effect. He denied that any pledge had been 'given or any promise made by Persia on the subject, not withstanding the assertions to the contrary by Colonel Shiel and the Noble Lord, repeated in the dispatches. Slavery was part of the law of Persia and all Mahometan countries, and we had no more right to interfere with it than they had to inter• fere with our internal affairs. The British Minister at Persia had stated to the Persian Government that Tur key had made it unlawful to import African slaves, and had made that a ground for demanding the fulfilment of the alleged promise on the part of Prsia, whereas, in point of fact, Turkey had made no such law, as was shown in another part of the dispatches. The only re sult he could draw from the papers on the table was that tho British Minister had used his best efforts to pick a quarrel with Persia. The whole interference of the Noble Lord was ill-timed, misplaced, injudicious. and absurd, and was characterised by gross ignorance of the internal arrangements and policy of those countries to which he sought to dictate. The result of the Noble Lord's policy was to force, a quarrel on Persia, and drive her into the arms of Rus,in. When the Persian Go vernment found that they could not obtain the friend. ship of England, except on the condition of permitting England to interfere in their internal institutions, they would accept the quarrel, and seek the friend ship and protection of another country which thee could obtain at less cost—that country against which in 1828 we entered into a protective treaty with Persia. Mr. HUME having seconded the amendment, Lord PALMERSTON observed that the difference between himself and the Hon. Member on political mat ters, to which the Hon. Member had so often alluded. was never more strongly marked than on the present oc casion. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the condi tion of domestic slavery in Oriental countries. He (Lord Palmerston) was an enemy to slavery in any form -- to field slavery or domestic slavery ; and though there might be a difference between the two as to the treatment and condition of the slaves, the crimes by which they were procured and brought to market were the same in both cases ; and if the motives of humanity which led to the opposition of domestic slavery were not so strong as those which influenced us in our endeavours to put a stop to field slavery, they were in regard to both sufficient to induce us by every means in our power to put an end to the system. The Government, therefore, thought that it was not an improper application of the moral influence of England to endeavour to induce Mahometan as well as Christian countries to put an end to the practice of the slave trade. The first country in which they made the attempt was Tunis, and the Bey of that country, yield ing to that influence, not only abolished the slave trade, but the condition of slavery altogether in his dominion. —(Hear, hear.) In that country at least that result had followed from our interference, which the Hon. Member said we could never hope for in Mahometan countries.—(Cheers.) Then the Government addressed themselves to the Sultan, and endeavoured to induce the Government of Turkey to prevent the slave trade being practised by their subjects, feeling that it was too much to expect that they would put an end to the condition of slavery. And after five months' exertions they did suc ceed in obtaining from the Sultan a firman prohibiting the slave trade as carried on by the subjects of the Porte. Ministers next directed their efforts to the Imaum of Mus cat, who was a great slave-trader, and by whose subjects the slave trade was carried on in the most barbarous manner, and they succeeded so far as to induce that so vereign to prohibit his subjects within certain limits from carrying on that trade. Then they had treaties with many of the Arab chiefs, by which they engaged not to carry on the slave trade. Then came Persia. He was glad the Hon. Member had quoted the dispatches of Colonel Sbiel on the subject, because the more those dispatches were read the greater credit would be roflectd on that gentleman, whose ability and zeal in the per formance of his duties entitled him to the highest praise.—(Hear, hear.) Colonel Shiel had laboured with great assiduity to persuade the Persian Government to follow the example of the Sultan, the Imaum of Muscat, and the Arabian chiefs, and to prohibit the subjects of the Shah from carrying on the slave trade in the Per sian Gulf. The Hon. Membe r said there was no pro mise on the part of Persia , ba t the dis patch to which the Hon. Gentleman had referr ed clear ly showed th at there was a distinct promise, and that the Persian Go vernment did make the engagement which Colonel Sheil very properly claimed the performance of.—(Hear hear.) The Honourable Member said that her Ma jesty's Government had brought matters to that point where there was no alternative left but for Persia to accept the quarrel forced upon her, and throw herself for protection into the hands of Russia. The H on . Member had built up an ex celsce turris t abulate, and h e would have the unde altior asset cases.--( g ear hear.) ember But unfortunately for the case of the lion. Memb notwithstanding his ingenious and elaborate argument to show how impossible it was for Persia to do that which her Majesty's representative had asked her to do, she had actually done it—(Cheers and laughter)— and if the Hon. Member had only taken the pains to consult the documents produced before the Slave-trade Committee, which were now, he believed, on the table of the House , he would have seen, since t he correspon hd e a nd i essu the ed a Hon.fim ato prohibit Memberquotedrihithis from, that the Sh a h s ubjects from carry ing on the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) Wi th regard to c r that part of the Ho n. Member the operations against spe ec h i n which he had gone back to Herat, he would only ask the House to remember the admission the Hon. Member had himself made, that the Persian expedition against Herat was in effect a danger threat ened against our Indian empire.—(Hear.) That was the ground of the proceedings of the British Govern ment at that time, amid he was glad to have the con firmation of the Hon. Member so far that Government were right in the view they then took. After a few words from Mr. URQUHART, who denied that the Noble Lord had fairly represented him, Mr. HUME, though agreeing that Government were justified in using all legitimate influence to put down the slave trade in other countries, objected to the attempts to effect the object by means such as those employed on the coast of Atrica, which, instead of effecting the object in view, only added to the horrors of the traffic. Sir R. 11. INGLIS reminded the lion. Member that during the fourteen years the African squadron had been kept up, we had taken eighty ships, which, if not cap tured, would have conveyed 190,000 slaves to the Ame rican coast. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the subject to which the Hou. Member for Montrose had adverted had been the subject of inquiry before a Committee, and he would examine the evidence to see if it were possible to adopt other measures better calculated to suppress the trade. What he rose for was, however to express a hope that the House would not now, on the 16th of August, enter into any very long discussions, but that they would allow the Committee of Supply to proceed with the con sideration of the remaining estimates. Lord G. BENTINCK reminded his Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis) that during the fourteen years to which he referred, we had by our interference inflicted the most aggravated sufferings on from 80,000 to 100,000 wretched beings. He gave credit to his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) for being impressed with a most laudable hatred of the slave trade ; but he thought he took an awkward way of showing it when he gave practical encouragement to slavery and the slave trade by the introduction of slave-grown sugar.—(Protectianist cheers.) The amendment was then put and negatived, and the House resolved itself into Committeee. On the vote that 72,500/. be granted for the salaries and expenses of the department for Foreign Affairs, Mr. BANKES renewed the discussion on the subject of foreign affairs, demanding to know if hostile orders had been given to the British fleet towards the Crown of Naples ; and also demanding inquiry as to our present relations with the Court of Spain, but imputing no blame to Sir 11. Bulwer, and admitting that he did not exceed the authority with which he was invested. Mr. MACGREGOR drew attention to the case of Colonel Bristow's expulsion from Spain; and asked for explanation thereon; at the same time he readily ad mitted, with the Noble Lord, the great inconvenience of discussing such matters at that period of the session. Sir D. L. EVANS fully concurred in the last remark, and expressed his regret that . the present session should have been so remarkable for such discussions. In fact, two continental powers could not have the least dispute eithout inducing some Hon. Gentlemen of that House to call upon the Government for intervention, while other Hon. Gentlemen demanded that there should be no intervention. The course now pursued regarding Spain and Portugal was not new, but similar to that adopted by this country for fifty years past. And again he must say that he utterly deprecated discussion on such sub jects pending any negotiation. Mr. HUME said it was true that for the last fiftyyears our policy had been that of intervention, and that policy he objected to. His opinion was that they ought to adhere to the principle and pledge of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's party as propounded by Lord Grey of non-intervention, peace, economy, reform, and re trenchment. He had waited with great anxiety to see what case had been made out by Sotomayor against Sir H. Bulwer, and he found that he had made out no case. Sir H. Bulwer had been well supported in this House by the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-office, and he ought to have been as well defended by the Noble Lord's colleagues in the other House of Parliament, where the attacks of Lord Stanley had been permitted to pass unanswered. Sir D. L. EVANS denied that he had ever recom mended intervention; he had simply stated that inter vention was not a new policy, but one which had been pursued by almost every Administration. Mr. P. HOWARD said it was undeniable that by the intervention of this country last year, a period had been put to a very fierce and bloody civil war in Portugal, and the Constitution of that country had been restored to its legitimate and ordinary form, and he trusted the question between Austria and the Pontifical States would not be lost sight of or disregarded in any of those pacific measures of advice and intervention which were mutually adopted between the Government of France and the Crown of England. Mr. URQ,UHART denied the accuracy of an asser tion which had been made in the course of the present discussion, to the effect that the Duke of Wellington had recommended intervention on the part of this country in the affairs of Spain. Mr. B. OSBORNE contended that the intervention of England in the affairs of Portugal had certainly not given free institutions to that country, but had entailed an expense upon England the items of which figured conspicuously in the estimates. As to the Spanish affair, he did not think the House was now in a position to discuss it. He then referred in terms of eulogium to the very able speech of the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) of whom it might be truly said—Nihil tetigit quod non ornavit.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had, how ever, gone far to allay any feelings of alarm and perturbation which might exist in the public mind by a speech in which the elevated views of the philanthropist had been conveyed in the dignified language of the statesman. Parliament would separate with a much better heart after listening to that speech, from the as surances which it held out that peace would be pre served.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Osborne) avowed that it had been his intention to vote that the proposed grant of 2,0001. to Lord Minto be disallowed, but, after hearing the speech of the Noble Lord, his views had been com pletely altered, and if the peace of Europe had been maintained so cheaply, he should offer no opposition. Lord PALMERSTON said he could hardly avoid offer ing a few words in reply to the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for the county of Dorset. In the first place he had to remark that it had always been the policy of the Govern ment of this country in all former times of her history to consider that the interests of Great Britain were deeply concerned in the transactions which took place in other countries, and every Administration had felt it to be its duty to look to those interests and to take such measures as might be necessary to secure their protection either by negotiations —or, if negotiations failed, by other me thods.—(Hear, hear.) In the early part of this debate, the Hon. Members for Inverness and Buckinghamshire had bestowed much argument on answering a speech made by him (Lord Palmerston) a considerable time ago, and in replying also to a dispatch he had written to M. Isturitz, and which had been laid upon the table 9f the House. He, however, should not occupy the time of the House by pointing out the total failure of both Hon. Members in answering either the speech or the dispatch, nut he should be content to leave both to be compared with the speeches this day delivered by the two Hon. Members. But he (Lord Palmerston) felt it due to Sir Henry Bulwer to notice three charges which had been brought forward by the Hon. Member for Inverness shire (Mr. H. Millie) as the grounds which he thought justified the Spanish Government in demanding his recall—and, if not recalled, in sending him away from Madrid. The first charge was that Sir H. Bulwer had permitted conspirators to as semble at his residence. This charge was contrary to fact, was totally unfounded and untrue. Sir H. Bulwer did no such thing—he had denied it in the most distinct and positive terms—there was not even the shadow of a proof adduced to support it, and he (Lord Palmerston) reiterated that the assertion was untrue, and was totally and entirely without the shadow ofi a foundation.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had wholly misunderstood the argument which he (Lord Palmerston) had used in the dispatch bearing upon this question. In that dispatch he had stated that in' a country like Spain, where there had been from thirty to forty changes of government in the space of eight or ten years, it was impossible for any Foreign Minister to avoid personal intercourse with individuals who were opposed to one government or another. A foreign Minister could not shut his door against the individual with whom he had b een i n off i cial communication as a po t the member thaed o nm f ei t xn h ti e s he administration sr: w a io n an i s ah ouo G tf o o v fh er ios nment the day before, Madridso of regulate communication of h is t his because social w o i i t r n h te p o r e c f r os ffi c s e u a c Ti c e d s s i r p - s H i t e i a o r n , hear.) It was i m p oss ibl e that the representative at uo nr a s n se y oapsp o no t so h et e d r t t obneathe o the Govern mentcould of the day. Such was the argument contained in his dispatch.—(Hear, hear.) The other charge made against Sir H. Bulwer was that he had harboured per sons who had conspired against the Spanish Government, and who were in a state of concealment from the pur suit of justi ce . Si r H . Bulwer,to that accusation had stated that acting upon the universal practice of all the ,foreign Ministers at the Court of Madrid, he had received for a temporary refuge an individual who admitted that he had been concerned in the insurrection, or rather in the at tempt at an insurrection, and some others who had been suspected, and as it afterwards appeared unjustly sus pected, of having taken part in those proceedings; but Sir H. Bulwer alleged 'that as the practice was ac knowledged and admitted in Madrid, it would have been disgraceful in him to have refused a temporary asylum to these individuals; and he (Lord Palmers ton) thought that his having done this presented no just ground on which the Spanish Government had a right to ask for his recall or to send him away.— (Hear, hear.) The third and last charge made against Sir H. Bulwer was, that he had given no refutation to the accusation of having contributed money for the purpose of getting up the Madrid insurrection. Why that ridiculous and trumpery charge had been refuted by General Pezuela, who had the command of the Spanish forces at the time; and he (Lord Palmerston) trusted it was not necessary for him to assure the House that there existed not the slightest ground for that ridi culous and absurd imputation.—(Hear, bear.) It had been said that it was a great pity that her Majesty's Government had not allowed Count Mirasol to retract these charges. Count Mirasol preferred no charges, but only came as a witness. But ample time bad been afforded to M. Isturita to retract them, and no attempt was made either to retract or press them. He therefore wholly dismissed that matter. It had, however, been asked, what was the present state of the relations of this country with Spain'? His reply was, that the present state of the relations with Spain stood thus—the diplo matic intercourse between the two countries was sus pended. Further it had been inipired, what means a British merchant resident in Spam, and who had suffered wrong from the Government there had to ob tain a redressal of those wrongs? The reply was, that in every part of Spain this country had consular officers, whose duty it would be to make applications to the Go vernment on behalf of the British merchant, and if those applications were not attended to there were other measures which the Government would adopt to secure attention to representations of the character alluded to. —(Hear, hear.) Another Hon. Member wanted to know how this country stood now with reference to its treaties with Spain. Those treaties were not in any degree affected by the suspension of diplomatic relations be tween the two countries ; and though it was not his (Lord Palmerston's) province to answer hypothetical ques tions, he would not hesitate to state that if any applica tion was made by Spain to this country to carry out the treaties, it would then be for Majesty's G o vernment to consider whether the claim made was good , and to give the Spanish Government an answer accordingly. He would also go as far as to say that the quadruple treaty had been contracted for very particular circ ornatene ss, and that it was not very likely that at p resent any question would arise to which the provisions o f that treatyh could be applied. Again, • t had been asked what good had been mixed itself up in the effected by the Government havinghat benefit had accrued affairs of Spain and Portugal, a_ l 2. l w Why, it must be remem from the quadruple treaty ? W treaty put an end to a bered that the very signing that dreadful civil war in Portugal—led to the surrender of Don Miguel, and to Don Carlos at once consenting to quit Spain. This was all accomplished with any ex pense to this country beyond that of the pea and ink with which the treaty was signed.—(Hear, hear.) As 1 Viscount PALMERSTOI i said that the en mmuri to the transactions last y ea r i n P or t uga l, th e re a civil ' don made from Baron Wesse Iffeerg was in his capacity of ' ea war, which threatened to b e of l ong d ura ti on , had been . Minister of Foreign Affairs f ar the EmperorofAustria, put an end to; and though h e did no t p re t en d t o s ay that 1 and not as acting under the a uthority of the Vicar of the everything there had sinc e gone on exac tly as he r M a - German empire. As to the b econdest forion, the him to House • jesty's Government had a right t o ex p ec t, y e t at all must see that it would be hi; thly improper events peace had been maintain e d i n P ortuga l, w hil e all ' enter into details of the commu mications whi c h had taken • Europe had been convulsed. He was not willing further place between himself and they representatives of other to detain the House on these matters; he had given ' Governments. such answers as he felt himself at liberty to supply, and ! The vote was then agreed to, as were the followin a he hoped the House would think he had don e as much 17,4611. for the salaries and expenses of the Colonial . as was consistent with his duty.—(Hear.) , Department. Mr. BANKES thought that one of the Noble Lord's 1 29,000/. for the salaries and expenses of the department replies furnished one ground against a portion of the 1 of the Board of Trade. vote now before the Committee, for the Noble Lord had ! On the next vote, 1,500/. as the probable expenses in shown that this country could go on as well with only i the office of the Lord Privy Seal, consuls to represent her abroad as she could with the I Mr. OSBORNE asked why the word "probable" was more costly representatives—ambassadors. introduced in this estimate and not in any of the others. Lord G. BENTINCK said that though this was the The C omm itt ee on th e Miscellaneous Estimates did not 16th day of August he should offer no apology for pre- a pp ear t o h ave ta k en an y ev id ence w ith r es p ec t t o thi s stinting a few observations on the forei gn policy of this office, which, he suspected, was almost useless. Bad the I n country, especially as the vote under consideration was word " probable"introduced e? because it . ;as in con to defray the expenses of the Foreign-office. He appre- I tern plation to abolish the office hentled that no more fitting or constitutional occasion I Mr. PARKER said the establishment of the privy seal for commenting upon the foreign policy of the nation was paid out of th e fi nes rece i ve d i n t h e office, as far as could be selected. Though the Hon. and Gallant Mem- they went. her for Westminster (Sir D. L. Evans) had read Hon. Mr. OSBORNE said he was not speaking of the es- Members a lecture, and had denounced the discretion of tablishment, but of the office itself. those who ventured observations on foreign policy, he '.‘lr. PARKER was understood to say that a Com 7 presumed they were not to be restricted to the internal mittee appointed by the Treasury was now sitting to in concerns of the country, and forbidden to go beyond the e q i i ii ii e r e e . in A ii t t mode of conducting the business of the affair of Kennington-common, but had a right to exer- present a very minute and elaborate series of processes wascirried muchon. in that office with respect to cise the special duty of keeping a watch on a department tr a e h was lost. Great improve which entailed upon the country so very large an ex- atenis, by which pergliture.—(Hear, hear.) He could well remember how p meats might be mad in former days the lion, and Gallant Member had been alteration in the duties of the office under made, e an consideration of the Committee ; accustomed to declare against" the despots of the north the only difficulty was that there were cert a i n p art i es of Europe," when he himself was about to set out on a w h o were entitledtofees. sort of buccaneering expedition to Spain; but now he Colonel SIBTHORP charged the Government with would debar others from uttering a word on the subject iniquity in hurrying on the estimates. He would have. of the foreign relations of this kingdom. Moore, some a report of all the public servants who were at work ;- twenty years ago, had written, for idle men did no good.—(Laughter.) He should like As bees on flowers alighting cease their hum. to have a return of the number of days on whi c h th e So, when in places sitting, Whigs grew dumb. Lord P And he (Lord G. Bentinck) thought that the Hon. and rivy Seal had attended to his office, where he had Gallant Member sought to realise the poet's stanza.— been for the last twelve months, and what he had been (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But he (Lord G. Bentinck) doing abroad. He was for paying working men and not wanted to know whether the request made by Austria absentees, and would have the Lord Privy Seal's s a l ar y for the mediation of this country had not been made so proportionally reduced. far back as ten weeks ago, at a time when the Austrian Mr. OSBORNE had ao objection to offer to the Lord riv Seal nar Noe L Government was in its hour of need and difficulty— h P made made a bei mo g st b tr o iumphant ad, for he defence thought the bl nd of his couct ord . when the whole of Europe was in combustion—when He only wished to know why the wording of the esti the Emperor had been driven from his own capital and forced to Innspruck—when the veteran General mate was different from the others. Radetzky had been driven with his troops from Milan? Mr. PARKER said he only spoke from memory, but Was not this the precise time when the good offices and he had no doubt the words were the same as had been mediation of Great Britain were sued for by the used on former occasions. Austrian Government, and refused by the Noble Colonel SIBTHORP said a man in office ought to be Lord opposite (Lord Palmerston)? He wanted also able to say at once what was the fact; if he could not Co know whether the mediation asked for on that answer everything he was good for nothing.—(Laughter.) There was a general disposition to smuggle everything occasion had not been demanded, first by Baron Kohler , and afterwards by Count Dietrichstein, who suc - through. ceeded him ; or whether the request had come Lord J. RUSSELL said the estimate was the same as t y there office. from the Germanic Diet at Frankfort ? These ques - last ear, lf fees and did not was no inten amount to 3, tion to it abolish the oool., would be made tions he should like to have answered before the vote for up out of the vote. the Foreign-office was agreed to. Was the request made The vote was than agreed to. before or after the Noble Lord had announced that he On the next vote, 15,0001. for the office of Paymaster had determined to join with France in the mediation ? G, idi because if the Noble Lord had refused his friendly cheq eneraluer-bll including the salaries and expenses of the Ex -office. offices of mediation in the time of Austria's need and Dr. BOWRING said this office was one of the best difficulty, the Noble Lord had no right to claim his pre- conducted of the public departments; all the books vilege to interfere now that Austria by her own intrinsic were regularly balanced every year. He wished to ask efforts had vindicated her rights and her authority, and whether, after the House had affirmed the principle of had driven her rash and saucy invader from Lombardy having all payments out of the revenue to pass through into his own country. The Emperor of Austria might now truly say to this country, " I have myself vindicated the House, the Government was prepared to adopt the my own rights and authority—l will not now admit you principle, as the only security for a proper application of into the arbitration to w hi c h y ou were i nv it e d, b u t in the revenue? which ten weeks ago you refused to take part." The The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he King of Sardinia having thought fit to invade the should endeavour gradually to carry out that principle, dominions of the Emperor of Austria, the latter had as far as it could be applied to the public business, a right to chastise the invader, and all the laws of though he did net admit what the Hon. Gentleman had nations and war forbade interference between them. The stated, that it was the only means of obtaining security Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne) had stated for the proper application of the revenue. that he did not intend to oppose the vote of 2,0001. to After a few words from Colonel Sibthorp, Mr. Hume, defray the expenses of Lord Minto's mission, on the and Mr. Goulburn, the vote was agreed to. principle that as the Noble Lord had preserved peace he The next vote was 7,3001. for salaries and expenses was cheap at any price.—(Laughter.) Now he (Lord in the department of Comptroller-General of the Ex- G. Bentinck) was totally at a loss to discover of what chequer. use Lord Minto had bees in preserving peace; on the Colonel SIBTHORP said he had moved some time contrary, it appeared to him that the Noble Lord had ago for a return of the duties of the Comptroller of the done much to provoke the rebellion among the subjects Exchequer, who he imagined had no control at all.— of the King of Sicily.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend (Laughter.) This salary of 2,000/. a year was one of the Member for the county of Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) had the most horrible jobs that existed. He thought it was desired to know what had been the instructions given by a toss-up between the Comptroller and the Deputy her Majesty's Government to the Queen's navy acting Comptroller, whose attendance was pretty nearly on a in the Mediterranean, and the Noble Lord had refused to par. The fact was, the deputy was the working man, answer that question. His Hon. Friend had not in- and he was most indefatigable and attentive. The quired as to future instructions, but with reference to comptroller himself was about .six months at hi s o ffi ce, past instructions, and what had been the acts done by the but the deputy did all the work. It was his int en ti on authority of the British Government in the dispute be- to move to bring in a Bill that the Noble Lord (Mon tween the King of the Two Sicilics and his rebellious teagle) should be removed from the office of comp subjects. This was a question he had a right to troller, and the duties given to the deputy-comptr o ll er , connecting them in some way with the Bank of England. ask and to have answered. It had been commonly In the present state of the House it was :hopeless to di reported that while the countries were thrown vide, but he should protest against this as a gross job into confusion by the sudden and unexpected rising and a humbug. of the people, and when the latter succeeded in over powering the King's forces in Sicily—and when the King Dr. BOWRING said that in another session he of Naples, recovering from his astonishment, had pre- should move the abolition of the Exchequer altogether; pared an army of 30,000 men, which would have over- for, io the way in which the business was conducted, powered the insurgents, the British men-of-war, under the Exchequer, instead of exercising any control, was Sir William Parker, appeared in the Bay of Naples, arri nothing but an incutnbrance. The Exchequer merely a message was sent by the Bulldog steamer to inform the indorsed what the Treasury recommended, and then King's forces that if they proceeded, as they had in- drew on the Bank of England for what was required. T tended, to bombard Palermo, and to reduce the imur his wits no security whatever to the revenue. On the gents to obedience, they would be opposed by the forces i ther hand, when money had to be paid into the Bank of the Queen of England.—(Hear, hear.) Thi s was a to the credit of the revenue, the Exchequer required point upon which he trusted the House and country so many documents to be prepared and su many steps would receive some clear, distinct, and unequivocal in- to be taken, that it was rendered a most complex formation from the Government. He (Lord G. Ben- matter. This applied to the case of fees, the receiver of thick) could nut refrain from expressing his surprise which stated that he had the greatest difficulty in getting that a member of a Whig Government, inheriting the money into the. Bank. Unfortunately the salary of the powers the Whigs originally obtained upon their the Comptroller of the Exchequer, 2,0001., was not professions of non-intervention, reform, and retrench- voted by the House, but was paid out of the consolidated tuent, should take credit to himself for the events fund. This was an anomaly which ought to be put an which had taken place in Portugal. Why there the end to. He implored the Government to take these constitution had been superseded—all these who matters into consideration during the recess. had fought the battle of freedom and the constitu- Mr. GOULBURN said he feared that three months tion in the course of the last year had been excluded experience on the estimates Committee had given some altogether from power—which they would have main- of its members very little insight into the offices into tamed but for the interference of the Whig Govern- which they had inquired. The practice was this: orders ment of this country in favour of the Queen of Portugal. for payment were made by the Treasury, and it was the --(Hear, hear.) With respect to the relations of this duty of the Exchequer to see that those orders were in a country with France, his Hon. Friend (Mr. Disraeli) perfectly legal form. In several instances while he was so far from condemning an alliance with France, had ap- in Once irregularities had been detected. lie thought it pealed to the times of Elizabeth, of Cromwell, and of absurd to suppose that these duties might be discharged Walpole, as those in which this country had sought and by the Bank of England. cherished an alliance with France. lie had not repu- The vote was then agreed to. dieted the French alliance, but had maintained that we On the vote of 2,6801. for salaries and expenses of the ought not to pander to the restlessness of any revolu- State Paper-office. tionary republic, by sacrificing our friends and violating Mr. OSBORNE asked,what the Committee meant by treaties. solely to prevent France from making an un- recommending "a fusion" of this office with the Record just aggression. He (Lord G. Bentinck) admired ias office. Did they mean the office should be burnt ? much as any one the efforts of France to procure for Dr. BO WRING said he was not responsible for the herself liberty; but it was no insult to tell her that she literary beauties of the report; but the Committee thought was impotent for the purposes of aggression, though that the offices might advantageously be brought together. omnipotent to repel enemies from her own tern- Sir G. GREY thought it important that a distinction tory.—(Hear, hear.) It had been truly stated that should be kept up between the papers of the State-paper her exchequer was in no condition for making foreign office and those of the Public Record-office, however ad war, and could not afford to send 100,000 men to vantaeeous it might be to place them under the same Italy, thereby uniting Russia, Prussia, and Austria management. against her. He hoped the day would never come when Colonel SIBTHORPE suggested that the office should this Government might justly be characterised, as it be calledi" the waste-paper-office."—(Laughter.) had been by Sotomayor, us haughty to the humble, and Mr. P. HOWARD spoke of the great assistance humble to the haughty. He hoped we would in no way which persons engaged in literary pursuits derived from discourage the established Governments with which we the public records. were friendly, from any fear that France in her restless- The vote was then agreed to. ness would disturb the peace of Europe. The way to On the vote of 3,5401., for the expenses of the Ecele be friendly with France was to tell her that she would s i a stical Commission. be powerless in a war of aggression, but all-powerful Dr. BOWRING asked if the Government were pre against any assault on her rights, in the defence of which pared to give effect to the recom mendations which the England would be found ready to unite with her. Committee had made on this head. The CHAIRMAN was about to put the vote, when take thiseti h m s e a to subject. (Lord URQUHART hoped the Noble Lord opposite Sider, before G. G givinsaidgthat anydi h s ti t ne ey must tpledge on (Lord Palmerston) would answer the question which had Vote agreed to. been put, at an earlier period of the debate, as to the On the next vote, 236,000/. for the administration of circumstaiices which had led to the proposed mediation the poor-laws, in the north of Italy being undertaken. Col. SIBTHORP complained that this was an in- Viscount PALMERSTON said that when the first crease of 2C,0001. on last year. overture was made on the part of the British Govern- Mr. HUME thought that 236,0001. was an enormous ment, it was merely an offer to mediate, and he hoped sum for the mere administration of the poor-law, and the House would not overlook the distinction between that it ought to be reduced.—(Hear.) the office of an umpire or arbitrator, in which character Mr. OSBORNE said the vote showed that the sygtem this mediation had been spoken of by some Hon. Mem- of centralisation was more expensive than that of local bers, and that of a simple mediator employing his good management.—(Hear.) The expense for the adminis offices.--(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen had talked of tration of the Scotch poor-law only amounted to 3,e60/. the arbitration of England, and of England and' France He should like to know whether the Scotch poor were acting as umpires; but that was not their character. well looked after? The first request to this Government to employ its good Mr. ELLIOT said they were not so well looked after offices with a view to restore peace in Northern Italy as t h ey had been made by Baron llumm ilauer, who had ought to be.—(Bear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that the expenses of the been sent over by the Austrian Government specially auditors, schoolmasters, schoolmistresses, and medical for that purpose. That offer was not declined. officers had nothing to do wit h the g eneral administra- There was a difference between th e two Govern- tion of the poor-law, thoug h the y were included in the ments as to the terms on which the British Govern- Note. It was very unfair to suppose that the increase ment thought they could enter into the mediation with had been caused by the centralisation. a fair prospect of success. An offer was made to mediate After u few words from Captain PECIIELL and Mr. upon certain bases which the British Government thought ek ai nNTZ, at that time likely to be attended with s u ccess, and Lord EBRINGTON said that it had been made matter nothing further ensued in consequence. The last corn- o f complaint that the medical officers were underpaid; munication by which the Austrian Government ex- now as only half of that expense was paid by the State, pressed their desire to have the good offices any increase of i t must involve a correspondin g increase of England, not the arbitration but the friendly offices of England, en the part of the guardians. The number of school. with a view to the restoration of peace in Northern toasters and schoolmistresses were inadequate to the Italy, had been made by Baron W essellber g , the demand, and consequent l y it was necessar y to pay higher Austrian Minister for Foreign Affairs; it was dated eth salaries. of August, and had been prese nted to him (Lord Mr. BRIGHT complained of the special expenses of Palmerston) a few days ago, by the Austrian Charge inspectors. Mr. C. BULLER said the salary of inspectors was d'Affaires in this country. ,001., and they were paid a guinea a day for expenses. Parker Sir J. WALSH wished for some information as to the - however, considering the labour instructions which had been given to Sir W. That was on the supposition that they resided in Lon withdon. It had been found, respect to the course to be taken by the squadron the inspectors were put to, that a salary of 1,0001. was in the Mediterranean. Had the Government state, it proper to declare war against them not too large. It appeared to him to be necessary to and asking would have been incumbent on to fact,e p ome down to have two scales of salary. The IIPW inspectors were appointed at the reducedscale of . in carrying on the the House with a message, stating the 5001. a ear besides their expenses. for the co-operation of the House The great use of central ) ' . andestahlis i h ns a pe rt e x ti a o a n f l i er w th h e ic a n dm in in te i r s m t - ra at ti i o e n a authority was war. If instructions had been given to Admiral Parker to keep u i a system of . of the law l , to interfere in a hostile manner against the King could he derived with respect to the law. Mr. BRIG) : ' ... of Naples, in the event of that Sovereign . taking any in Sicily, such a steps to suppress the revolt I. r said that there were 11 inspectors with course would distinctly amount to an act of war against State—(Hear, hear)—and Ministers salaries which amounted to 11.000/. But it appeared the Neapolitan , would not be justified in taking such a s t e p, an d at the the.'. 7,515/. was paid in addition for travelling and inci i guinea a day. dental expenses. That was a great deal more than a same time declining all information on the subject when asked. At this moment there was no conceivable differ once between the position of Sicily and Ireland, except Mr. BULLER said that the usage of the office was to that Naples was a weak state, and England a strong one. allow a guinea a day for personal expenses, and the ex- If it went out to the world that the King of Naples had , Panees of locomotion beeid: s. He thought that the sys been precluded, by threats from this country, frorn adopt- . tent which had been hitherto adopted was a bad one, and, ing a course which he had a perfect right to take, a great all lie could do was to establish a new one for.the future. stain would rest on this country. Atter a few words from Mr. OS BORNE, . Lord G. BENTINCK asked whether he was to under- Mr. GLADSI ONE said that the Right Hon. Gentle stand that the Foreign Minister of the Emperor of Aus our ally, to man had appointed three new inspectors, and he should tria had been authorised by the Emperor,day 7 to know whether he allowed them the guinea a treat with England in this matter, or had he been ing on some other authority? Also, whether the treat- Mr. C. BULLER did not wish to propose any altera why the mediation sought by Austria from Englandt e rahsoand lion, but he considered that there would be a difficulty not been agreed to, was that England made it in consequence of the arrangements which he had made a s in e qua being too economical.—(Laug,liter.) Ile had proposed non that Austria should resign a large ~ that the new inspectors should take office at 5001. a year, trritories which, by the treaty 01 Pari s, she was entitled I • t o claim? t instead of 7001., and with no allowance of a guinea a *IR • ~