The Sun. — London, England, 1848-08-17 00:00:00

- < .;411101i .• • ..• " :~.. of a real patriotism, and fierce with the very recollection of its desecrated heerths. She must meet even more than that Germany. She must meet Russia, at this moment not s o Powierful front her armies as from her moderation, as er l s .wil dem. and her ju s ti c e.—(H ear , h ear .) And how 4:ratece to send out those armies ? flow is she to throw herself in immediate hostility with Germany and with Russia? Why, every secondary power in Europe 'would be prepared, under such circumstances, to meet stye traditionary outlaw of nations—(Hear, hear)—en •t; aged in quarre l w i thout law, just i ce, or necess i ty. — kia ear. hear.) How is France to act in this frantic manner? What is her position at this moment to enable her to send out those mighty hosts to conquer the " whole world in arras?" She has 50,000 men guarding her metropoli s . Sh e h as ac hi eve d a f ree d om u p on p a p e r, and it is secured in her streets by her artillery.—(Hear, he ars) She h as 50,000 men encam p e d a t Ly ons . She has a n paesny pausib' of occupation in every great city, under the ie name of " extraordinary garrisons." Where, he ere those two inv a di ng ho s ts that are to conquer Italy end Ger man y, t o p reven t w h ose a ppearance the 'h'se Lord is going to enter into mock mediations, to incur ~rt'.ficial alliances, factitious understandings, and to sacri ne es the rights °four allies? Why, Sir, if France increases l',er army—rather, if France withdraws her domestic le gions —to invade the world, the whole of her town po laulation will rise to advocate the interests of that "` model republic" which, perhaps, her Majesty's Minis ters aro going to establish in Milan.—(Laughter.) If Franco increases her armies she increases her taxes, and they are already enormous and excessive, and the whole of her provincial population will march upon Paris, in order to prevent the continuance of a system which is as absurd as it is iniquitous. Nor is this all. If France removes the armies she now possesses, she will have the whole of her urban population in revolt. If she increases those armies, the whole of her provincial popula tion will rise against the oppression of the Govern anent. Torn by domestic factions, with an empty ex 'chequer, with a paralyzed credit, and a people without enthusiasm, why are you to suppose that France is going to conquer the world ?—and why, to prevent that, are ye a s going to sacrifice your allies? Sir, the system of m ock mediation is the system which this country °Wet not to encourage. The course which the Noble Lord has to pursue, if ho wishes to secure the peace of tt se world, and the greatness of his country, is one - which I believe the Noble Lord is quite competent to fulfil, and he has the abilities, the knowledge, and the .courage which qualify him to do it. It is not an ad. 'herence to the system of policy which he has pursued before, and which ended only in mortification to himself, and in the destruction of his then ally ; for I believe that the throne of France would never have fallen, had it not been for those forced occasions of mutual co-ope ration which led eventually to mutual distrust and dis icomfiture. The Noble Lord, I say, has one course only before him ; it is a proper one, and the only one which en English Minister should adopt. Let the Noble Lord merely tell the world that, under his counsels, England maintain the principles of national law ; that England will observe the stipulations of existing treaties; that she will not authorise by her sanction any outrage of the •rights of nations ; that she will not counsel any of her allies to yield their legitimate interests, in order t° gratify the morbid van ity o f an ill-r e gulated society. Then the Noble Lord will take a position which will OM for him the confidence of statesmen, the sympathy 4 sovereigns, and the hope and trust of suffering nations. /tut if the Noble Lord takes a contrary course—and I 'am moat unwilling to believe he will take that course— it will be a course, I will not say, fatal to his Govern ment, because that will not bo so great a consideration with the House as it may be in the minds of his imme diate supporters—(A laugh)—though I should be un willing to see that Government disturbed—but it will be a course fatal to his reputation and injurious to his country; and these aro considerations which, I am sure, Must influence him. Sir, it is useless to attempt to act in the management of these affairs with the Jacobin :P a rty- I call them the Jacobin:party, although I was .called to account by the Hon. Member for Montrose, who said that that name had passed away, and he gave us another name to describe the party, and which has often been used to describe their system. Sir, I recognise the same features as of yore—l observe the same character of system. It has the name leaven in it, and I therefore use the same name, It is a sy s t em w hi c h commences w i t h Ira -eraitY, and ends with assassination. It is a system -which begins by preaching universal charity, and con cludes by achieving general spoliation. Sir, I do not Bare , who the indi v id ua l may b e , w h et h er it b e M. L e d ru or whether it be the person who shakes hands with X Ledru R o lli n . —(L aug ht er .) I canno t rec og n ise , r ° Ple Of that kind as the French nation, or as those rersons with whom I would wish my country to be in alliance and cordial understanding. I, Sir, am persuaded that if the Noble Lord pursues this system, it is one that will, very rap idl y, make th i s country of the same op i n i on myself. The Noble Lord may even now act in a manner that will add to his power, and add even to the great ue , se and tne reputation of this country. He may, a ithis craven age, assert the principles of public justice will manner which becomes a British Minister ' • and be find then th a t no b an dit s , w h a t ever maybe their position, will cross any mount a in s o r invad e any towns he y . th, ay know that England is prepared to uphold the ' ef public law. For, Sir, in public as much as tin Private matters, I have seen enough, and I am sure f r om every Honourable Gentleman now present must, ma esty of bs Personal experience, have seen enough to convince that in the long run nothing can withstand the the law, the force of truth, and the inspire of honour. —(Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON.—I certainly do not rise to "I Plain, as the Honourable Gentleman who has Jest sat down seemed to expect that I should, that t his House has, during the present session of Parlia- Ib mt) exhibited any undue desire to impede the march o f her M a j esty ' s Mi n i sters i n regar d t o th e con d uct o f the foreign relations of the country by pressing too " 4 , k it _ rd lY upon them for disclosures of the course which " e 3' mean to pursue, or calling prematurely for ex rianations as to the course which they may have pur :awl duri ng t h e sess i on . I acknowledge, with thank en my own part, and on the part of the Go :erne:tent, the discreet—l must say the judicious— ierbearance which this House has Shown in those mat ,'"--(hear, he a r.) Members of this House have, 4 „. -- a u tlY no doubt, considered that the public interest is ' a'eclueutly best consu lt e d by a llowing to the Govern ment of th e d ay the free exercise of their own discretion as to delicate and important transactions with respect the forei the f countries, reserving to themselves hereafter unction of calling to a strict account, as of right the ': a re entitled, and as in duty they are bound to do, 'Jae whose con d uct may appear to d eserve i nvest i ga - T n or c ensure. —(Hear.) I therefore am far from coin ig ' li nng eithe r of the cuurse which has been pursued 11 former occasions or of the course which on the fariewsent occasion the Hon. Gentleman has thought fit to o f a ' lam perfectly ready to admit, that at the close " ss ien during which events of the utmost im portance have g Europe from one end to the convulsed ether • • a it is a perfectly legitimate exercise of the rights and r' legitimate performance of the duties of a Member of this Hou se to express hi s op i n i ons as the Hon. Gentleman has done, at a moment when, probably, The t ermination of our labours may not be far distant. (Rear, hear.) Si r , I t hi n k the Hon. Gentleman was judged rightly in appending the observations which °.. h " made, in regard t o th e po li cy o f t hi s country 441 respect to Italy, not on the vote pertaining to the particular office held by my Noble Friend the Lord Privy al, but to that office which is responsible for the gene ral conduct of the foreign relations of the country—the I:fiee, namely, which I have the honour to fill.—(Hear, ? e ar.) The Honourable Gentleman seems to be better informed, I think, than he chooses to allow the House to infer from his speech, as to the grounds upon which the mission of my Noble Friend the Earl of Minto took Pace. These grounds were, in some degree, those which ththe Honourable Gentleman has stated. The facts were ese :—Towards the end of the summer, it is well known, in consequence of the altered policy of the then newly-elected head of the Roman Government, prin. eiples of reform and of administrative and constitu tional improvements were spreading fast over the whole surface of Italy. Difficulties were experienced be tween the Governments and the people in regard to the march Which those events and those improvements should take. There was no part of Italy in which those difficuties were more strongly and more urgently felt than in the city of Rome. A communication was made to me, certainly not (as we understood) publicly, but from a most authentic source, conveying to her Ma jesty's Government the anxious desire of the Govern ment of Rome, first that an accredited and official agent might be sent from this Government to the Government of Rome for the purpose of aiding that Government in the difficult and novel task, which was partly imposed upon itself and p art l y pressed upon it by the population; that, in short, we should send them somebody who, re- Presenting the Gover nmen t o f England, might give them friendly counsel and advice in matters in which rre might wish to c onsu l t hi m. It was said that might be legal diffi cu l t i es in complying with that request ; b u t t h at if t h ere were such difficulties, and if those difficulties could not then be removed, we should be [conferring a great obligation on the Go vernment of Rome if some individual could go there w ho, Possessin g th e en ti re con fid ence of her Majesty's Go vernment, and pointed out by hi s attainments and ex- Perienee ace a person informed upon matters of policy, z ejght be referred to upon occasions on which itshould be wished to consult him ; and that if such a person could eoMbine with those qualifications considerable diplomatic experi e n ce, the Government of Rome would be delighted to r eceive such an i n di v id ua l i n hi s p r i vate capac i ty, and without any official authority. My Noble Frieud, Lord Mint - was at that time upon objects of his own, intend g to pass a short time in Italy ; and I thought that I c ,,, e eid not better comply with the request which had been mad e —that I could not better fulfil those intentions with Which the request had been addressed to us, than by ad slaieg her Majesty to authorise the Earl of Miuto to Proceed to Rome in that unofficial capacity, without any lltploinatic character, but simply as a member of her Majesty's Government, possessing, as the Hon. Gentle ;'an hag said, th e ent i re con fid ence o f h er M a j es t y ' s everoment acting as the eye, the ear, the mind l the Gov ernment, capa b le, from hi s k now l e d ge of the intentions of the Government, to act upon a 4 i 'cltien, on any emergency that might present itself. I tie ought I could not render a better service to those par by urgin g my L s who might wish for our counsel and assistance than tha t • • Noble Friend to proceed, as ho did, upon 4 mission. A similar wish appeared to be enter sata,,,o Dy other Governments of Italy to procure my t•seele Friend's assistance ; he was, therefore, instructed ',? take Turin and Florence on his way to Rome. To the %(: . itirt s of Turin and Florence my Noble Friend carried e et ters, accrediting him upon a special mission, if he found upon his arrival that it was the wish of those Govern- Joelets so to receive him; to Rome, of course '- teed /so o ffi cial chara c t er . The 'Ply- ,-.13 car. WM? cable Gentle. REPT , put 3ta of of the u go- The 3en of Lie re they from 3SBIOII Linde ; the to be when asked 4 the ading to the 'other be ' harm Yes of brced n any THE SUN, man wishes to know what were the objects which my I Noble Friend had to keep in view; what was the purpose for which this uncalled-for interference, as he scorns to imagine it, was to take place. Sir, the interference was not uncalled for; my Noble Friend was to obtrude his advice upon nebody; he was, if wished for, and if asked to do so, to give such counsel as he could, and to endeavour to remove such diffieulties as might he pointed out to bins. Tiest was the purpose for which he went to those courts ; and that ree the purpose which he successfully accomplished. My Noble Friend, on the one hand, pointed out to the Govern ments that they might trust their people, that they need not fear to confer upon them tho se cons tit u ti ona l institu. tions which it was the object of their subjects to receive; he pointed out, on the other hand, to those who were most ardent in desiring reform, that they would best at- Lain those national objects which they legitimately en deavoured to pursue by placing confidence in their Governments, and by not urging them too rapidly to change long-established institutions. At Turin and at Florence my Noble Friend was eminently successful ; and the proof of that is, that great and important changes were made in the institutions of those two states without any convulsion disturbing the public tranquillity, and without any interruption of that harmony between the subject and the Sovereign which we felt that it was so desirable to maintain. My Noble Friend's progress was, I should say, almost an ovation—(Hear, and a laugh)—wherever he went he was received with acclama tions by the inhabitants—at every Court he was received with open arms by the Government. At Rome his labours were directed to the same object ; at Rome his labours were attended with the same success.—(Hear.) My Noble Friend, when he left this country, had no mission to go to the Court of Naples ; we had received no communication from Naples asking for our aid ; we did not presume to offer that which was not solicited. But when my Noble Friend was at Rome, a communi cation was made to me by the Neapolitan Minister at this Court, that the Sovereign of Naples would take it as a compliment if my Noble Friend pursued his journey from Rome to Naples. My answer was, "He will go if he ie invited ; he has no instructions to go there, but if he receives an invitation through the Queen's Charge d'Affairs at Naples, it will be his duty, as it will be his pleasure, to attend to it ;" and, in conse quence, credentials were sent to him, to be made use of it that occasion should occur. During the unfortunate differences which broke out between the King of Napes and his Sicilian subjects, both the King on the one hand, and his Sicilian subjects on the other, asked for the me- diation and intervention of British diplomacy, to endea• your to arrange and settle their disputes ; Lord Minto ' was invited from Rome to go to Naples ; to Naples lie ' accordingly went, and he employed himself with great diligence and with the :utmost zeal in endeavouring to bring about a reconciliation between the King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects, upon conditions which would maintain the Crown of the two countries upon one and the same head. I shall not go now—it would not be fitting that I should—into minute detail of the circum stances which characterised those negotiations, nor shall I advert to more than one event which tended to render them unsuccessful ; but, at the critical period when those negotiations were almost brought to a satisfactory conclusion, there arrived at Palermo the news of the revolution nt Paris ; and I think the House may easily conceive that the announcement of an event of that im portance must have considerable influence upon the minds of men. That led to difficulties on the one side, which were not met by concessions on the other, and the result was, that on the one hand the people of Sicily de clined any longer to acknowledge the King of Naples as their sovereign ; and the King of Naples, on his part, declined to confer the crown of Sicily on one of his sons, to whom that crown was offered. The Hon. Gentleman adverted to the part which her Majesty's Government has taken in the subsequent proceedings of the Sicilians, with a view to elect another prince to be their sove reign ; that choice, made by the Sicilians, was purely and entirely spontaneous ; they:chose the prince to whom an offer has since been made entirely on their own judgment of what would in their opinion be best for the interests of their country. It is imma terial whether that opinion coincided with the opinion of her Majesty's Government or not; at the time when that choice was made it was made entirely from their own impulse, and as the result of their own judgment. Undoubtedly her Majesty's Government, accepting as they do facts and events, have signified that they would be prepared to acknowledge the sovereign whom the Sicilians might choose, when that sovereign should bo actually in possession of the territories to which the voice of the people might call him.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman wants to know what is the intention of her Majesty's Government in regard to the employment of the naval force of this country now stationed in the Mediterranean, in respect to any expedition which the Government of Naples may fit out and send forth. I am sorry I can only follow in the steps of my Noble Friend sitting near me and of my Noble Friend in the other House, and say that it isfnot the practice in this country —nor do I think it would be expedient with re ference to the public interest to establish the practice— to announce what are the intentions of the Government with regard to events which are taking place on the con tinent of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever our course may be, we are prepared to defend and justify it—it will he for the House to determine whether or not we have acted properly. Thus much I think I may state with regard to the policy which the Government pursued in respect to the affairs of Italy, as connected with the mission of my Noble Friend Lord Minto— that that missioe was founded on the most disinter ested motives—that the motives which led to that mission had in them nothing that was sordid, or base, or selfish, or ungenerous, and that the only British interest which could be served by that mission was the interest which England, as a great power, has in persevering peace in other countries, and of assisting, when invited to do so, in forwarding the progress of civilization and improvement, and in promoting the happiness and well being of the world.—(Hear, hoar.) The Hon. Gentle man has adverted to more recent events which have taken place in the north of Italy, and has expressed an opinion that the mediation which this country has en gaged in, with respect to the present state of affairs in that part of Italy, in conjunctionwithFrance, is a media tion savouring of the nature of an impertinent interference, without object and incapable of leading to any result. I can only say that the mediation in question is not the re. sult of any spontaneous and intrusive desire of this country to meddle in matters with which we have no concern, bat, on the contrary, is the result of the earnest en treaties and applications made to us by all the parties directly or indirectly concerned in the transaction,— (Hear, hear.) It is the result of wishes expressed both at the beginning and the end by Austria.—(Hear, hear.) I say it is the result of wishes expressed -by Austria at the outset of the Italian troubles and repeated not three days ago; it is the result of wishes expressed by the Government of Sardinia and by the people of Italy: it is the result of wishes expressed by the Government of France—(Hear, hear) —and I must say, that it; in answer to all these wishes; so expressed, we had obsti nately and doggedly refused our mediation, 1 think we should have deserved the censure which the Honourable Member conceives himself entitled to throw upon us for the course which we have pursued. The Government of Austria at the beginning , as I have said, asked for our good offices, and, as lately at Frankfort, and on the 15 th of A ug ust here, August, as the 9th of that Government renewed the expression of its desire that we should take part in the settlement of these affairs. On the other hand, the Government of Franco was urgently entreated by the opponents of Austria to interpose military assistance in aid of the Italian cause. The Hon. Gentleman says that France has no right to intermeddle in the quarrel. That is the question which, perhaps, it is useless for us to discuss here. Whatever may be the views entertained as to the expediency, po licy, and justice of one country interposing in a war waging between other countries, yet, in point of strict right, I apprehend there can be no question that where two nations are at war it is competent to a third party to take which side he pleases, if he choose to engage in the contest. I will not enter into any discussion as to the circumstances under which the war between Sardinia and Austria began. The lion. Member conceives that it was part of the functions of Lord Minto ;to prevent Austria from attacking Sardinia in the course of last year. That was no part of Lord Minto's mission. It was part of his Lordship's mission to in duce the Sardinian Government to abstain from hostili ties against Austria, which, at that time, the Austrian Government apprehended, although under circumstances totally different from those under which the Sardinian army subsequently took the field. At that time there was no revolt at Milan, and Austria was in undisturbed possession of the whole of her Italian provinces ; but the Austrian Government having professed to entertain apprehensions of the hostile intentions of the King of Sardinia, the British Government did urge that mo narch to abstain from the attempts which he was alleged to have in contemplation. When the late military events took place in the north of Italy, the Government of France was urgently requested to afford instant military aid to the Italian cause. The Hon. Gentleman who maintains that it is, and ought to be, and has been, subject only to partial exceptions, the standing rule for this country to be on a footing of intimate friendship and general co-operation with France—the Hon. Gen tleman, who believes that to be the policy of England, has been rather unfortunate in the manner in which, as far as he is concerned, he endeavoured to give effect to the community of good feeling between the two countries.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I fully admit the soundness of the Honourable Member's . doctrine however I may lament the practice by which he endea vours to carry it into effect—(A laugh)—and therefore I wish myself to forget, and I hope:that the French na tion may forget, if possible, those parts of .the Hon. Gentleman's speech which I think were not calculated to promote union and cordiality between France and this country; for if the Hon. Gentleman had intended, as I am sure he did not, to rouse the bitter jealousy of a great nation, and, by wounding its pride, to dare it to do, and thus to produce the very result which he professes to think injurious to the great interests of Europe and the cause of civilization, he could not have thrown into the cauldron of national animosities more bitter ingre dients, more poisonous drugs, than ho infused into his speech upon this occasion. —(Cheers.) I will not an swercshauarspelly wi t l h l e no s t ha r f u t n w t h h i e uh risk he of ha p s oin i t in detail w h at the Hon. Member has stated, be. a in u g uuh st e i d ll ; more sharply the shaft which he has launched; but the Hon. Gentleman is much mistaken, and those who think with himshare fancy that th ere is anything in the present condition of France w hi c h makes it impossible for her to take part in any hostile operation which the Govern ment and peopl e o f that cou n try may e her legions over the Alps,' determine on nlaeie- ,- - • be desirous of em barking in.—(Cheers.) Th e r e e could not be a more fatal error than to suppose that, and d ee th nt events have dis a rm e d the right hand o f F ranc es sheatshe cannot now pour has done on former occasions, if an unit e d G overn merit and neonl.. , — 1 , ~,~._. _- 1U sposition a hostility t0 ....us ....us any Power beyond those limits.--(Cheers.) Let Inot the House imagine, then, that any vain phantom has created uneasiness and alarm on the part of the Govern- LONDON, ' mew. I confess that we did feel that any interference by arms on the part of France in the affairs of Italy would be pregnant with nil those dangers which the Hon. Gentleman has not shadowed out, but graphically de scribed in all their magnitude ; for instance, the lion. Gentleman said that if France should send an army into Italy she must also send another to the Rhine—that if Germany took the field against France, Russia would follow in lipr footsteps. What would that be but an universal European war—a conflagration extendinglfrom one end of Europe to the other, and involving in its destructive consequences the most disastrous results to humanity and the progress of civilization ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But when the French Govern ment said to us, " We are pressed to interfere by arms in the cause of Italy, but we do not wish to involve our country in a war—we are willing to endeavour to settle matters by mediation if you will assist us—it must be a joint effort; that will remove all ground of jealousy, for no one can suppose that England entertains hostile views with respect to Austria; whatever France and England do in conjunction must be a work of peace; it must have the termination of hostilities for its object —upon these grounds we hope you will interfere con jointly with us, and, at least until we obtain your an swer, we will suspend our decision as to the adoption of other measures;"—l say, that when the British Govern ment was addressed in this manner it would have been most blameable if it had not acted immediately in ac cordance with the suggestion of France. Those are the motives which led us to enter into a joint negotiation with France. The principle upon which we have acted is the principle of maintaining the peace of Europe.— (Hear.) The policy and means by which the end is to be attained resolve themselves into questions of detail which I feel it my duty to refuse to make public at this moment.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman taunted the British Government with the co-operation which has at different times taken place between England and France, and he included within the sweeping range of his artillery, not only our camp, but that of which I see the Right Hon. Leader opposite. The Eon. Gentleman taunted us, in the first place, with our interference in the ease of Belgium and Holland, the result of which, he said, was the despoiling of an allied sovereign of his un doubted rights. Those who have directed their attention to that case know that the principle on which we acted with respect to it was laid down by our predecessors, under whose administration the conferences were already established which we afterwards conducted during a long but ultimately successful negotiation, and our inter ference originally took place at the request of the sove reign whose rights the Hon. Gentleman says were set aside in consequence of that interference. It was at the request of the King of the Netherlands that the Govern ment of the Duke of Wellington, in connexion with the rest of the five European powers, undertook con ferences and negotiations, and established an arnsi slice between the contending parties, which issued in the result alluded to. The Hon. Gentleman says, that the alliance of England and France ought to bo the result of events, and that we ought not to invent occasions and create circumstances for it. I quite agree with him; but when, I ask, were occasions invented, and opportunities unnecessarily created ? Is it at the present moment? Did we create the mighty convulsion which is agitating Europe from one end to the other ? Did we invent the occasion which has led to the common action of England and France? We have acted in this matter in the earnest and anxious hope that the good understanding and action of France and England may prevent the dis turbance of the present time from extending from inter nal conflict to external war,—in the anxious hope that we may continue to preserve that peace which, with the most trifling exceptions, has lasted, I may say, for up wards of thirty years, but which has certainly, during the last fifteen years, been peculiarly maintained by the good understanding which has prevailed between the Governments of England and France.—(Hear, hear.) For this object we shall be happy to combine with the French Government in endeavouring to extinguish the first sparks of war, wherever they may show themselves, and thus to prevent a conflagration spreading through out Europe. Notwithstanding the Hon. Gentleman's sneers, then, I think that this is conduct of which any Government of England may justly feel proud. As to the particular incidents which the Honourable Gentleman passed over in rapid suecession, they are all explicable on the general principle to which I have referred. The Honourable Gentleman is not correct in his history of some of the events to which he alluded—the expedition to Ancona, for instance, which he conceived to be the result of a violent inter ference on the part of the two Governments. The Go vernment of France of that day, at least, was not a Jacobinical Government—it was not the Government which had imported the razzias of Africa into the streets of Paris, but the Government of that Sovereign whose wisdom and moderation the Hon. Gentleman had praised in the highest terms. It is gratifying to find that, in spite of the great events which have disturbed the fabric of society in France—which have altered the Govern ment of that country, and which have brought late power in that country [men wholly different from those who have of late years wielded the powers of Govern ment there—in spite of those events, which might have been expected to produce great changes in the national feeling and policy of France, there still exists on the part of those who govern France, and I am happy to say on the part of the majority of the French nation also, a frank, loyal, honest, and enlightened desire that the policy of France may find itself in unison with the policy of this country.—(Hear, hoar.) I must also say that the events of the last few months show the extraordinary progress which civilization and enlightenment have made in Europe during the last half-century.—(Hear, hear.) The same events which have lately occurred on the continent would, it they had taken place 50 years ago, have involved the whole of Europe in a war of the bitterest nature and of long duration. Now, however, we see, that although in almost every country of Europe events of the most fundamental character have occurred, there still exists in the minds of the majority of men an enlightened and sincere desire for the preservation of external peace. It :is consoling to observe the tone and temper of those who are the organs of the French nation in the present Cabinet. Instead of turning the people loose, as was done at the earlier part of their former re volution, to occupy themselves with the affairs of other countries, they are now bent on restoring and main taining order, and being so occupied, I think they do not deserve the taunting sneers which the Hon. Gentle man has applied to them.—(Cheers.) The French Government is anxiously, wisely, earnestly, and cour rageously employed in establishing order, it is working for the prosperity of the French nation and consolidating kllit t i se e aiotnw l e, i ci b woac e rth r iladoa t c i n:t e ess s vio_oe o gr t l . that country, and I think such a course of conduct does honour to the men who are engaged associations.—(Hear, r, h a b v e e a r . been A t their I. 1. 0 b previous g a s England opinions a b o d r together r willfor the the e preservation fforta w hie h o f they the makepeace b o e l kEt imankind, nnaepurposegni honest, drlk. aeinnffrddro 0, efforts sincere , emspdarnyu F rancear ypb a oe i b pro mot i ng e d seus adapted cfuscotcherhcsneesnwsf lsuhhdfl happiness cup,. th. unite nt tleptheesetartsnylhonourablerslguuaaeesarnitdhedeetennhd to gether f o r fwt ophrouat act i n g ht purposes.— (Hear, tranquillitynt o hev s mef e faoo s . trr — eooat n-11 (Hear, hear.) It is impossible that two nations like pur poses which cannot be avowed in the face of all - man gether is one of that description ; and I trust in he a v en v influence of these two great nations, co-operating for the will be steadily and zealously directed to that end, and whether we succeed or fail, I am de liberate judgment of Parliament and the unanimous opinion of the country will be, that we have acted right in making the endeavour.—(Cheers.) Mr. H. BAILLIE considered that the discussion bad not been in vain if it had been productive of mo other re sult than that of calling attention to the foreign affairs of the country. For the Noble Lord the Foreign Secre tary was, it now appeared, not satisfied with utterly r f a a i n l i g n e g m in en t in a llh t i b s e en in d s e t a a v n o e u e rs of to sp m ai a n ke ab a d sa r ti e s r fa tu e g to a r l, an yar ci rendering the name of England odious from one end of the Peninsula to the other, but he was about to try his hand in the affairs of Italy, and embark England in the h these circumstances the House wa s j ustified in askin g the Noble Lord, as regards Spain , whether the friendl y caearrtoeioc threerasof sea partytt of trouble that existed in that country. Under relations that previously existed betwe en both countries should be renewed; and whether England was still con• sidered to be bound by the quadruple t reat y , which had never answered its purpose, but whic h, on the contrary, had served as a constant pretext for interfe rence on the part of En g l an d and France in the affairs of the Peninsula. Th e N o bl e Lord had told the House that, the object of the Treaty of the Quadruple Alliance was t o ass i s t the establish ment of liberal go vernments i n Sp a i n and Por tugal. But had it accomp li s h e d t h a t o bj e ct? On the contrary, was not th e most v i o l en t, ar bitrary, and illegal Government that ever ex i s t e d es t a blished in those coun tries? Taking th e case o f P or t uga l last year—the state of that country was b roug h t b e f or e Parliament by the Hon. Member for M ontrose , w h en the Queen of that country asked the a ss i s t ance o f E ng l an d under its provi sions against her o wn su bj ects . Th ere was , indeed a new Cortes assembl e d, an d t h e C a b ra li sts were n ominally excluded, but the t oo l s o f t h e C a b ra li sts were th e re, and did tho work o f oppress i on effectually. In S pa i n th er e w aees strongest, nobilityrit pnoiernsEog—g Eng l and , rgs t et, h l a as number i n g adt and a e ni C , atrhi party,l h l e i t s et a t o party,clergy,d ofae mra which no gat the iont da the h t he m nee caload rankstheiv Whig e r y r all, the jdaglo party, , and t h b tl , ptaeertTy th he hp yw majority rural peasantry. H e ass i milated the Carlist party to and the progressist to the radical. The progressist party had for a while been kept in power by the influence and n g l l t an w d a , s butaai said h by e n the p these r w ng e r r e e n w i s i withdrawn d t r h a a w t n G th e e . menlvonednrenrysaindne of England, E . party came i n t o o ffi ce, which they had retained neral Narvaez was a m m er ad e n m e adman;but he had suffi ssto effectual put eh edeokwnthiantsurrec clenn t and method to in n ee h p is in pro gressist party which th e N o b le Lord had takn terference of the British Governme r n a ti y n th th a e n ' under his charge. H e contended that th a h ff a ae d irs eviell of ! Spain had been productive of the es t a bli s h ment there () a more grinding and oppressive tyranny before prevailed there. In reference to the circum stances which led to a cessation of diplomatic inter , course between this country and Spain, he certainly considered that the Spanish Government had acted with very great indiscretion; but on the other hand, the charges which they brought against our Minister at the Court of Madrid, and which our Government had re fused to entertain, were of a most grave character. Sir Henry Bulwer himself did not deny one of' the very gravest of these charges, that of having received into his house the progressist leaders who had b een con spiring against the de facto Golvehmoot of Spain, a course which clearly rendered him liable, under the law of nations, to the expulsion to which he had been sub jected. Suppose the parallel cas e Am bassador here r" - ,fostering, and encouraging -...vcafing, of the Spanish Government have thought itself distinctly 3 English the Spanish Minister so mis -1 tified in at once directing ii ll . Duffy, &c.: would not . t u h e e . that the °v. vice in thin nacoenadsures.tinMgithcihmesbelOf t 'l o ir g i u en it , t i y ~d. . coantr within four-and- twenty hours? He regretted THURSDA I' EVENING, AUGUST 17, 1848. matter had not been laid on the table of the House, so as to place the real facts of the easr , before the country and before Europe, and to cast the blame ou the shoul ders really entitled to bear it. Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Committee report pro4rcss, and ask leave to sit again. The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro gress, and obtained leave to sit again at five o'clock. The House then adjourned, at Half-past Three, until Five o'clock. The SPEAKErt rammed the Chair at Five o'clock. SECULAR EDUCATION. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from a place near Manchester, praying for a general system of secular education, unaccompanied with the embarrassments of public instruction. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Mr. SPOONER, presented a petition from Warwick. against the Charitable Trusts Bill. AR 1Y REGULATIONS. Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to ask the Right lion. the Secretary-at-War whether officers who had distinguished themselves in the army, but who had since sold out, would be allowed to wear their uniforms upon public occasions? Mr. FOX MAULE said the privilege applied only to majors and lieutenant-colones who had received the honour of being made Knights Commanders of the Bath, and its extension to other officers rested entirely with her Maje3ty. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. GROGAN said, about ten years ago a con siderable sum of money was voted by the House for the erection of colleges in Ireland, for the education of the middle classes of that country. These colleges were in a ♦ery forward state, and he believed some of them would be opened early next year. Now it was obvious that any improvement in the social condition of the people would depend upon the education to be given in these colleges, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would readily understnnd the anxiety which prevailed in Ireland to know the nature of the discipline and system of education that would be pursued in these colleges. L,Trd JOHN RUSSELL said it was the opinion of the Government that the object which Parliament had in view in making a grant for those colleges would not be accomplished unless they were open to Roman Ca tholics and Presbyterians, as well as to persons belong ing to the Established Church. At present, the statutes were not considered altogether perfect, but they were now under consideration, and as soon as they were finally settled he should have no objection to lay them before the House. MESSAGE FROM TUE LORDS. The House was informed that their Lordships have agreed to the following Ballots Sus pension —Walsall Improvement (No. 2), without amend went—Great :Western Railway (Loop Line from the Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway through Leamington)—Great Western Railway (Birmingham and Oxford Junction, &c., Railways Purchase)—Man cheater, Buxton, Matlock, and Midlands Junction Rail way (Deviation and Branch), with amendments. SLAVE TRADE. Mr. URQUHART rose to move, " That from the correspondence laid upon the table of this House in re• ference to the suppression of the slave trade in Mus sultnun countries, it appears that her Majesty's servants have adopted proceedings calculated to ag gravate the horrors of the traffic, and to alienate from this country the 'good will of the Governments and nations so interfered with." It was the bounden duty of the Government, to the best of its ability, to put an end to the traffic in slaves. Now, he was prepared to show, in the words of his motion. that " the proceedings of the Government had aggravated the horrors of the traffic." The Hon. Gentleman, amid a buzz of conversation which rendered his observations almost inaudible, was understood to say that he made this motion in consequence of the correspondence which had been laid on the table during the previous week, and he hoped to prove how very injurious and inefficient had been all our diplomatic efforts for the suppression of the slave trade in Turkey, Persia, and other Mussulman countries. We had threatened them with confiscation, and had even entered into discussions with their doctors relative to their laws; and yet, he maintained, that with all these vexatious proceedings the cause of slavery abo lition had not advanced one jot. The Honourable Member proceeded to read lengthy extracts from Lord Ponsonby's dispatches, the purport of which was, that notwithstanding all our negotiations, Turkey had re fused to declare the slave trade piracy. - Also from our diplomatic agent in Persia, to a similar effect. He denied that any pledge had been given or any promise made by Persia on the subject, not withstanding the assertions to the contrary by Colonel Shiel and the Noble Lord, repeated in the dispatches. Slavery was part of the law of Persia and all Mahometan countries, and we had no more right to interfere with it than they had to inter. 'fere with our internal affairs. The British Minister at Persia had stated to the Persian Government that Tur key had made it unlawful to import African slaves, and had made that a ground for demanding the fulfilment of the alleged promise on the part of Persia, whereas, in point of fact, Turkey had made no such law, as was shown in another part of the dispatches. The only re sult he could draw from the papers on the table was that the British Minister had used his best efforts to pick a quarrel with Persia. The whole interference of the Noble Lord was ill-timed, misplaced, injudicious, and absurd, and was characterised by gross ignorance of the internal arrangements and policy of those countries to which he sought to dictate. The result of the Noble Lord's policy was to force a quarrel on Persia, and drive her into the arms of Russia. When the Persian Go vernment found that they could not obtain the friend ship of England, except on the conditioa of permitting England to interfere in their internal institutions, they would accept the quarrel, and seek the friend ship and protection of another country which they could obtain at less cost—that country against which in 1828 we entered into a protective treaty with Persia. Mr. HUME having seconded the amendment, Lord PALMERSTON observed that the difference between himself and the Hon. Member on political mat ters, to which the Hon. Member had so often alluded, was never more strongly marked than on the present oc casion. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the condi tion of domestic slavery in Oriental countries. He (Lord Palmerston) was an enemy to slavery in any form—to field slavery or domestic slavery ; and though there might be a difference between the two as to the treatment and condition of the slaves, the crimes by which they were procured and brought to market were the same in both cases ; and if the motives of humanity which led to the opposition of domestic slavery were not so strong as those which influenced ns in our endeavours to put a stop to field slavery, they were in regard to both sufficient to induce us by every means in our power to put an end to the system. The Government, therefore, thought that it was not an improper application of the moral influence of England to endeavour to induce Mahometan as wallas Christian countries to put an end to the practice of the slave trade. The first country in which they made the attempt, was Tunis, and the Bey of that country, yield ing to that influence, not only abolished the slave trade, but the condition of slavery altogether in his dominion. —(Hear, hear.) In that country at least that result had followed from our interference, which the Hon. Member said we could never hope for in Mahometan countries.—(Cheers.) Then the Government addressed themselves to the Sultan, and endeavoured to induce the Government of Turkey to prevent the slave trade being practised by their subjects, feeling that it was too much to expect that they would put an end to the condition of slavery. And after five months' exertions they did suc ceed in obtaining from the Sultan a firman prohibiting the slave trade as carried on by the subjects of the Porte. Ministers next directed their efforts to the Imaum of Mus cat, who was a great slave-trader, and by whose subjects the slave trade was carried on in the most barbarous manner, and they succeeded so far as to induce that so vereign to prohibit his subjects within certain limits from carrying on that trade. Then they had treaties with many of the Arab chiefs, by which they engaged not to carry on the slave trade. Then came Persia. He was glad the Hon. Member had quoted the dispatches of Colonel Shiel on the subject, because the more those dispatches were read the greater credit would be reflectd on that gentleman, whose ability and seal in the per formance of his duties entitled him to the highest praise. —(Hear, hear.) Colonel Shiel had laboured with great assiduity to persuade the Persian Government to follow the example of the Sultan, the Imaum of Mu sca t, and the Arabian chiefs, and to prohibit the subjects of the Shah from carrying on the slave trade in the Per sian Gulf. The Hon. Member said there was no pro mise on the part of Persia, but the dis patch to which the Hon. Gentleman had refe rred clearl y showed th at there was a distinct promise, and that the Persian Go vernment did make the engagement which Colonel Sheil very properly claimed the performance of.—(ll ear hear.) The Honourable Member said that her Ma jesty's Government had brought matters to that point where there was no alternative left but for Persia to accept the quarrel forced upon her, and throw herself for protection into the hands of Russia. The Hon. Member had built up an excelsa turris tub u l ata, and he would have the undo altior asset cases.—( Hear, h ear. ) But unfortunately for the case of the lion. M em b er, notwithstanding his ingenious and elaborate argument to show how impossible it was for Persia to do that which her Majesty's representative had asked her to do, she had actually done it--(Cheers and laughter)— and if the Hon. Member had only taken the pains to consult the documents produced before the Slave -trade C o mmittee, which were no w, he believed, on the table of the House , he would have seen, since the correspon dence the Hon. Member q uoted fronal, th at t h e Shah had issued a firm= to prohibit his subjects from carry ing, on the slave tr ade.—(Hear, hear.) With reg ar d to that part of the H on. Member s speech which he • in had gone back to the operations against Herat, he would only ask the House to remember the admission the Hon. Member had himself made ,_ t a ha d t an t g h e e r t h Persianreat expedition against He rat was in effect ened against our Indian empire.--(Hear.) That was the ground of the procee din g s of the_ British Govern ment at that time, and he was glad to have th e con firmation of the Hon. Member so far That Government were right in the view they then took. After a few words f ro m Mr. URQUHART, who denied that the Noble Lord had fairly represented him, Mr. HUME, though agreeing that Government were justified in using all legitimate influence to put down the slave trade in other countries, objected to the attempts to effect the object by means such as those employed on the coast of Africa, which, instead of effecting the object in view, only added to the horrors of the traffic. Sir R. 11. INGLIS reminded the Hon. Member that during the fourteen years the African squadron had been kept up, we had taken eighty ships, which, if not cap tured, would have conveyed 190,000 slaves to the Ame rican coast. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the subject to which the Hon. Member for Montrose had adverted had been the subject of inquiry before a Committee, and he would easeaine the evidence to see if it wore possible to adopt other measures better calculated to suppress the trade. What he rose for was, however to express a hope that the House would not now, on the 16th of August, enter into any very long discussions, but that they would allow the Committee of Supply to proceed with the con sideration of the remaining estimates. Lord G. BENTINCK reminded his Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis) that during the fourteen years to which he referred, we had by our interference inflicted the most aggravated sufferings on from 80,000 to 100,000 wretche‘l beings. He gave credit to his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) for being impressed with a most laudable hatred of the slave trade ; but he thought he took an awkward way of showing it when he gave practical encouragement to slavery and the slave trade by the introduction of slave-grown sugar.—(Protectionist cheers.) The amendment was then put and negatived, and the House resolved itself into Committcee. On the vote that 72,5001. be granted for the salaries and expenses of the department for Foreign Affairs, Mr. BANICES renewed the discussion on the subject of foreign affairs, demanding to know if hostile orders had been given to the British fleet towards the Crown of Naples ; and also demanding inquiry as to our present relations with the Court of Spain, but imputing no blame to Sir li. Bulwer, and admitting that ho did not exceed the authority with which he was invested. Mr. MACGREGOR drew attention to the case of Colonel Bristow's expulsion from Spain; and asked for explanation thereon; at the same time he readily ad mitted, with the Noble Lord, the great inconvenience of discussing such matters at that period of the session. Sir D. L. EVANS fully concurred in the last remark, and expressed his regret that the present session should have been so remarkable for such discussions. In fact, two continental powers could not have the least dispute without inducing some Hon. Gentlemen of that House to call upon the Government for intervention, while other Hon. Gentlemen demanded that there should he no intervention. The course now pursued regarding Spain and Portugal was not new, but similar to that adopted by this country for fifty years past. And again he must say that he utterly deprecated discussion on such sub jects pending any negotiation. Mr. HUME said it was true that for the last fifty years our policy had been that of intervention, and that policy he objected to. His opinion was that they ought to adhere to the principle and pledge of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's party as propounded by Lord Grey of non-intervention, peace, economy, reform, and re trenchment. He had waited with great anxiety to see what case had been made out by Sototneyor against Sir 11. Bulwer, and he found that he had made out no case. Sir H. Bulwer had been well supported in this House by the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-office, and he ought to have been as well defended by the Noble Lord's colleagues in the ether House of Parliament, where the attacks of Lord Stanley had been permitted to pass unanswered. Sir D. L. EVANS denied that he had ever recom mended intervention; he had simply stated that inter vention was not a new policy, but one which had been pursued by almost every Administration. Mr. P. HOWARD said it was undeniable that by the intervention of this country last year, a period had been put to a very fierce and bloody civil war in Portugal, and the Constitution of that country had been restored to its legitimate and ordinary form, and ho trusted the . question between Austria and the Pontifical States would not be lost sight of or disregarded in any of those pacific measures of advice and intervention which were mutually adopted between the Government of France and the Crown of England. Mr. URQUHART denied the accuracy of an asser tion which had been made in the course of the present discussion, to the effect that the Duke of Wellington had recommended intervention on the part of this country in the affairs of Spain. Mr. B. OSBORNE contended that the intervention of England in the affairs of Portugal had certainly not given free institutions to that country, but had entailed an expense upon England the items of which figured conspicuously in the estimates. As to the Spanish affair, he did not think the House was now in a position to discuss it. He then referred in terms of eulogium to the very able speech of the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) of whom it might be truly said—Piihil tetigit quod non ornavit.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had, how ever, gone far to allay any feelings of alarm and perturbation which might exist in the public mind by a speech in which ,the elevated views of the philanthropist had been conveyed in the dignified langua g e of the statesman. Parliament would separate with a much better heart after listening to that speech, from the as surances which it held out that peace would be pro ' served.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Osborne) avowed that it had been his intention to vote that the proposed grant of 2,0001. to Lord Minto be disallowed, but, after hearing the speech of the Noble Lord, his views had been com pletely altered, and if the peace of Europe had been maintained so cheaply, he should offer no opposition. Lord PALMERSTON said he could hardly avoid offer ing a few words in reply to the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for the county of Dorset. In the first place he had to remark that it had always been the policy of the Govern ment of this country in all former times of her history to consider that the interests of Great Britain sere deeply concerned in the transactions which took place in other countries, and every Administration had felt it to be its duty to look to those interests and to take such measures as might be necessary to secure their protection either by negotiations —or, if negotiations failed, by other me thods.—(Hear, hear.) In the early part of this debate, the Hon. Members for Inverness and Buckinghamshire had bestowed much argument on answering a speech wade by him (Lord Palmerston) a considerable time ago, and in replying also to a dispatch he had written to Isturitz, arid which had been laid upon the table of the House. He, however, should not occupy the time of the House by pointing out the total failure of both Hon. Members in answering either the speech or the dispatch, but he should be content to leave both to be compared with the speeches this day delivered by the two Hon. Members. But he (Lord Palmerston) felt it due to Sir Henry Bulwer to notice three charges which had been brought forward by the Hon. Member for Inverness-. shire (Mr. H. Baillie) as the grounds which he thought justified the Spanish Government in demanding. his recall—and, if not recalled, in sending him away from Madrid. The first charge was that Sir H. Bulwer had permitted conspirators to as semble at his residence. This charge was contrary to fact, was totally unfounded and untrue. Sir H. Bulwer did no such thing—he had denied it in the most distinct and positive terms—there was not even the shadow of a proof adduced' to support it, and he (Lord Palmerston) reiterated that the assertion was untrue, and was totally and entirely without the shadow of a foundation.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had wholly misunderstood the argument which he (Lord Palmerston) had used in the dispatch bearing upon this question. In that dispatch he had stated that in a country.like Spain, where there had been from thirty to forty changes of government in the space of eight or ten years, it was impossible fur any Foreign Minister to avoid personal intercourse with individuals who were opposed Aii with Minister swt ehr o t o cia o nlh n g could nhoat o d v s e bb r tel n te m nb e i nt or is n door offi h official againstot eo e m r . mt buonAii communication ad f t io ivo r i nedi individual a member of the Spanish Government the day before, because the next he was out of office and in opposition to the administration of his successors.—(Hear, hear.) It was imp oss ibl e t h at the representative at , Madrid of this or of any other nation could s mo o f e r nn e ot g i no u In : a tu t h e ne h e i a s t i s o oc i al day. nswtebh p intercourse werasso nt the eo a ap srpgno argument opposed de to nt tob contained t i b n e t G h e bv h e a r bit ni n his dispatch.—(Hear, hear.) The other charge made against Sir H. Bulwer was that he had harboured per sons who had conspired against the Spanish Government, and who w ere i n a state of concealment from the pur suit of justic e . Si r H . Bulwer,to that accusation had stated that acting upon the universal practice of all the ,foreign Ministers at the Court of Madrid, he had received for a temporary re f uge an i ndividual who admitted that he had been concerned in the insurrection, or rather in the at tempt at an insurrection, and some others who bad been suspected, and as it afterwards appeared unjustly sus pected, of having taken part in those proceedings; but Sir H. Bulwer alleged that as the practice was ac knowledged and admitted in Madrid, it would have been disgraceful in him to have refused a temporary asylum to these individuals; and he (Lord Palmers ton) thought that his having done this presented no just ground on which the Spanish Government had a right to ask for his recall or to send him away.— (Hear, hear.) The third and last charge made against Sir H. Bulwer was, that he had given no refutation to the accusation of having contributed money for the purpose of getting up the Madrid insurrection. Why that ridiculous and trumpery charge had been refuted by General Pezuela, who bad the command of the Spanish forces at the time; and he (Lord Palmerston) trusted it was not necessary for him to assure the House that there existed not the slightest ground for that ridi culous and absurd imputation.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that it was a great pity that her Majesty's Government had not allowed Count Mirasol to retract these charges. Count Mirasol preferred no charges, but only came as a witness. But ample time had been afforded to Me Isturitz to retract them, and no attempt was made either to retract or press them. He therefore wholly dismissed that matter. It had, however, been asked, what was the present state of the relations of this country with Spain? His reply was, that the present state of the relations with Spain stood thus—the diplo matic intercourse between the two countries was sus pended. Further it had been inquired, what means a British merchant resident in Spain, and who had suffered wrong from the Government there had to ob tain a redressal of those wrongs? The reply was, that in every part of Spain this oountry had consular officers, whose duty it would be to make applications to the Go vernment on behalf of the British merchant, and if those applications were not attended to there were other measures which the Government would adopt to secure attention to representations of the character alluded to. —(Hear, hear.) Another Hon. Member wanted to know how this country stood now with reference to its treaties with Spain. Those treaties were not in any degree affected by the suspension of diplomatic relations be tween the two countries ; and though it was not his (Lord Palmerston's) province to answer hypothetical ques tions, ho would not hesitate to state that if any applica tion was made by Spain to this country to carry out the treaties, it would then be for Majesty's Government to consider whether the claim made was good, and to give the Spanish Government an answer accordingly. Ile would also go as far as to say that the quadruple treaty hadbeencontracted for very particular circumstances, and that it was not very likely that at present a n y q uestion would arise to which the provisions of tha t treaty could be applied. Again, it had been asked w hat good had been effected by the Government having mixed itself b affairs of Spain and Portugal, and wha t bene fi must be t from the quadruple treaty ? h y ► i t a tip d a c i c n r u the ed remem bered that the very signing that treaty dreadful civil war in Portuga l —led once to consenting to Don Miguel, and to Don Ca rlos t p h u e t s a u ti rre e n u d d er to o a f at Reuse to this country beyond na quit Spain. This was all aceor.tnpltishoefdtbweitpheonut a a n n d y einxk with which the treaty was signed.—(Hear, hear.) As to the transactions last year in Portugal, there a civil - ,...ar, which threatened to be of long duration, had been put an end to; and though he did not pretend to say that everything there had since gone on exactly as her Ma jc.,ty's Government had a right to expect, yet at all events peace had been maintained in Portugal, v'hile all Europe had been convulsed. He was not willing further to detain the House on these matters; he had given such answers as he felt himself at liberty to supply, and he hoped the House would think he had done as much as was consistent with his duty.—(Hear.) Mr. BANKES thought that one of the Noble Lord's replies furnished one ground against a portion of the vote now before the Committee, for the Noble Lord had shown that this country could go on as well with only consuls to represent her abroad as she could with the more costly representatives—ambassadors. Lord G. BENTINCK said that though this was the 16th day of August he should offer no apology for pre senting a few observations on the foreign policy of this country, especially as the vote under consideration was to defray the expenses of the Foreign-office. He appre hended that no more fitting or constitutional occasion for commenting upon the foreign policy of the nation could be selected. Though the Hon. and Gallant Mem ber for Westminster (Sir D. L. Evans) had read Hon. Members a lecture, and had denounced the discretion of those who ventured observations on foreign policy, he presumed they were not to be restricted to the internal concerns of the country, and forbidden to go beyond the affair of Kennington-common, but had a right to exer cise the special duty of keeping a watch on a department which entailed upon the country so very large an ex penditure.---(Hear, hear.) Ho could wall remember how in former days the Hon. and Gallant Member had been accustomed to declare against " the despots of the- north of Europe," when ho himself was about to set out on a sort of buccaneering expedition to Spain; but now he would debar others from uttering a word on the subject of the foreign relations of this kingdom. Moore, some twenty years ago, had written, As bees on flowers alighting cease their hum. So, when in places sitting, Whig , grew durrib. . _ . And he (Lord G. Bentinek) thought that the Hon. and Gallant Member sought to realise the poet's stanza.— ' (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But he (Lord G. Bentmck) wanted to know whether the request made by Austria for the mediation of this country had not been made so far back as ten weeks ago, at a time wheh the Austrian Government was in its hour of need and difficulty— when the whole of Europe was in combustion—when the Emperor had been driven from his own capital and forced to Innspruck—when the veteran General Hadetzky had been driven with his troops from Milan? Was not this the precise time when the good offices and mediation of Great Britain were sued for by the Austrian Government, and refused by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Palmerston)? He wanted also to know whether the mediation asked for on that occasion had not been demanded, first by Baron Kohler, and after wards by Count Dietrichstein, who suc ceeded him ; or whether the request had come from the Germanic Diet at Frankfort ? These ques tions he should like to have answered before the vote for the Foreign-office was agreed to. Was the request made before or after the Noble Lord had announced that he had determined to join with France in the mediation ? because if the Noble Lord had refused his friendly offices of mediation in the time of Austria's need and difficulty, the Noble Lord had no right to claim his pri vilege to interfere now that Austria by her own intrinsic efforts had vindicated her rights and her authority, and had driven her rash and saucy invader from Lombardy into his own country. The Emperor of Austria might now truly say to this country, " I have myself vindicated my own rights and authority—l will not now admit you into tho arbitration to which you were invited, but in which ten weeks ago you refused to take part." The King of Sardinia having thought fit to invade the' dominions of the Emperor of Austria, the latter had a tight to chastise the invader, and all the laws of nations and war forbade interference between them. The Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne) had stated that he did not intend to oppose the veto of 2,0001. to defray the expenses of Lord Minto's mission, on the principle that as the Noble Lord had preserved peace he was cheap at any price.—(Laughter.) Now he (Lord G. Bentinck) was totally at a loss to discover of what use Lord Minto had been in preserving peace; on the contrary, it appeared to him that the Noble Lord had done much to provoke the rebellion among the subjects of the King of Sicily.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend the Member for the county of Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) had desired to know what had been the instructions given by her Majesty's Government to the Queen's navy acting in the Mediterranean, and the Noble Lord had refused to answer that question. His Hon. Friend had not in quired as to future instructions, but with reference to past instructions, and what had been the acts done by the authority of the British Government in the dispute be tween the King of the Two Sicilies and his rebellious subjects. This was a question he had a right to ittle and to have answered. It had been commonly reported that while the countries were thrown into confusion by the sudden and unexpected rising of the people, and when the latter succeeded in over powering the King's forces in Sicily—and when the King of Naples, recovering from his astonishment, had pre pared an army of 30,000 men, which would have over powered the insurgents, the British men-of-war, under Sir William Parker, appeared in the Bay of Naples, and a message was sent by the Bulldog steamer to inform the King's forces that if they proceeded, as they had in tended, to bombard Palermo, and to reduce the insur gents to obedience, they would be opposed by the forces of the Queen of England.—(llear, hear.) This was a point upon which he trusted the House and country would receive some clear, distinct, and unequivocal in formation from the Government. He (Lord G. Ben thick) could not refrain from expressing his surprise that a member of a Whig Government, inheriting the powers the Whigs originally obtained upon their professions of non-intervention, reform, and retrench ment, should -take credit to himself for the events which had taken place in Portugal. Why there the constitution . had been superseded—all those who had fought the battle of freedom and the constitu tion in the course of the last year had been excluded altogether from power—which they would have main tained but for the interference of the Whig Govern ment of this country in favour of the Queen of Portugal. —(Hear, hear.) With respect to the relations of this country with France, his lion. Friend (Mr. Disraeli) so far from condemning an alliance with France, had ap pealed to the times of Elizabeth, of Cromwell, and of Walpole, as those in which this country had sought and cherished an alliance with France. He had not repu diated the French alliance, but had maintained that we ought not to pander to the restlessness of any revolu tionary republic, by sacrificing our friends and violating treaties. solely to prevent France from making an un just aggression. Ho (Lord G. Bentinek) admired ;.as much as any one the efforts of France to procure for herself liberty; but it was no insult to tell her that she was impotent for the purposes of aggression, though omnipotent to repel enemies from her own terri tory.—(Hear, hear.) It had been truly stated that her exchequer was in no condition for making foreign war, and could not afford to send 100,000 men to Italy, thereby uniting Russia, Prussia, and Austria against her. Ile hoped the day would never come when this Government might justly be characterised, as it had been by Sotorunyor, as haughty to the humble, and humble to the haughty. He hoped we would in no way discourage the established Governments with which we were friendly, from any fear that France in her restless ' ne,s would disturb the peace of Europe. The way to be friendly with France was to tell her that she would be powerless in a war of aggression, but all-powerful against any assault on her rights, in thedefence of which England would be found ready to unite with her. The CHAIRMAN was about to put the vote, when Mr. URQUHART hoped the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Palmerston) would answer the question which had been put, at an earlier period of the debate, as to the circumstances which had led to the proposed mediation in the north of Italy being undertaken. Viscount PALMERSTON said that when the first overture was made on the part of the British Govern ment, it was merely an offer to mediate, and he hoped the House would not overlook the distinction between the office of an umpire or arbitrator, in which character this mediation had been spokenlof by some Hon. Mem bers, and that of a simple mediator employing his good offices.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen had talked of the arbitration of England, and of England and France acting as umpires; but that was not their character. The first request to this Government to employ its good offices with a view to restore peace in Northern Italy had been made by Baron Hummilauer, who had been sent over by the Austrian Government specially for that purpose. That offer was not declined. There was a difference between the two Govern ments as to the terms on which the British Govern ment thought they could enter into the mediation with a fair prospect of success. An offer was made to mediate upon certain bases which the British Government thought at that time likely to be attended with success, and nothing further ensued in consequence. The last com munication by which the Austrian Government ex pressed their desire to have the good offices of England, not the arbitration but the friendly offices of England, with a view to the restoration of peace in Northern Italy, had been made by Baron Wessellberg, the Austrian Minister for Foreign Affairs; it was dated 9th of August, and had been presented to him (Lord Palmerston) a few days ago, by the Austrian Charg6 d'Affaires in this country. Sir J. WALSH wished for some information as to the instructions which had been given to Sir W. Parker with respect to the course to be taken by the squadron in the Mediterranean. Had the Government thought proper to declare war against any European state, it would have been incumbent on them to come down to the House with a message, stating the fact, and asking for the co-operation of the House incarrying on the war. If instructions had been given to Admiral Parker to interfere in a hostile manner against the King r of Naples, in the ev ent of that S9vore taking any steps t o suppress the revolt in Sicil y , such a course would distinctly amount to an act of war against the Neapolitan State—(Hear, hear)—and Ministers would not be justified in taking such a step, and at the same time declining all information on the subject when asked. At this moment there was no conceivable differ ence between the position of Sicily and Ireland, except that Naples was a weak state, and England a strong one. If it went out to the world that the King of Naples had been precluded, by threats from this country, from ad opt l i - ing a course which ho had a perfect right to take, a great stain would rest on this country.. — Lord G. BENTINCK asked - whether he was to under stand that the Foreign Minister of the Emperor of Aus tria had been authorised by the Emperor, our ally, to treat with Englati'd in this matter, or had he been treat ing on some other authority? Also, whether the reason wby the mediation sought by Austria from England had nut been agreed to, was that En g l an d made it a sine qua non that Austria should resign a large portion of those territories which, by the treaty of Paris, she was entitled to claim? leam•••••,•.. .ilf•••••11 kg U tr Viscount PALMERSTON said that the communicaz - N _,, , s -s I.l_, lion made from Baron Wessellberg w as i n hi s capac i ty of i;; \ ;;\ Minister of Foreign Affairs for the Emp eror o f Austria,. i . .,,,.,1 , ~ ...-tI.AP -- :" and not as acting under the authority of th e ,Vi car of theyf ig ,.,(,*4l` l ' " German empire. As to the second questi on , th e He '''kil - A , must see that it would be highly itupropt,e for hith,i e. , -/?:.-' - -•••- ,- )..--r -, ---,. . i enter into details of the communications which had tames .... -1:5. , place between himself and the representatives of otlier-7-- - " ' Governments. 1! :441 The vote was then agreed to, as were the following:- 17,4611. for the salaries and expenses of the Colonial Department. 29,0001. for the salaries and expenses of the department of the Board of Trade. F : " , '. "4 - .4- ii ),, , • - •4, On the next vote, 1,5001. as the probable expenses in the office of the Lord Privy Seal, Mr. OSBORNE asked why the word " probable" was introduced in this estimate and not in any of the others.. The Committee on the Miscellaneous Estimates did not appear to have taken any evidence with respect to this office, which, he suspected, was almost useless. Had the word " probable" been introduced because it was in con templation to abolish the office ? Air. PARKER said the establishment of the privy seal was paid out of the fines received in the office, as far as they went. kr. OSBORNE said he was not speaking of the es tablishment, but of the office itself. Mr. PARKER was understood to say that a Com mittee appointed by the Treasury was now sitting to in quire into the mode of conducting the business of the office. At present a very minute and elaborate series of processes was carried on in that office with respect to patents, by which much time was lost. Great improve ments might be made, and an alteration in the duties of the office was under the consideration of the Committee ; the only difficulty was that there were certain parties who were entitled to fees. Colonel SIBTHORP charged the Government with iniquity in hurrying on the estimates. He would have a report of all the public servants who were at work ; for idle men did no good.—(Laughter.) He should like to have a return of the number of days on which the Lord Privy Seal had attended to his office, where he had been for the last twelve months, and what he had been doing abroad. He was for paying working men and not absentees, and would have the Lord Privy Seal's salary proportionally reduced. Mr. OSBORNE had ao objection to offer to the Lord Privy Seal being abroad, for he thought the Noble Lord had made a most triumphant defence of his conduct. He only wished to know why the wording of the esti mate was different from the others. Mr. PARKER said he only spoke from memory, but he had no doubt the words were the same as had been used on former occasions. Colonel SIBTHORP said a man in office ought to be able to say at once what was the fact; if he could not answer everything he was good for nothing.—(Laughter.) There was a general disposition to smuggle everything through. Lord J. RUSSELL said the estimate was the same as last year, and there was no intention to abolish the office. If the fees did not amount to 3,000/., it would be made up out of the vote. The vote was then agreed to. On the next vote, 15,0001. for the office of Paymaster- General, including the salaries and expenses of the Ex chequer-bill-office. Dr. BOWRING said this office was one of the best conducted of the public departments; all the books were regularly balanced every year. Ile wished to ask whether, after the House had affirmed the principle of having all payments out of the revenue to pass through the House, the Government was prepared to adopt the principle, as the only security for a proper application of the revenue? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he should endeavour gradually to carry out that principle, as far as it could be applied to the public business, though he did net admit what the Hon. Gentleman had stated, that it was the only means of obtaining security for the proper application of the revenue. After a few words from Colonel Sibthorp, Mr. Hume, and Mr. Goulburn, the vote was agreed to. The next vote was 7,3001. for salaries and expenses in the department of Comptroller-General of the Ex chequer. Colonel SIBTHORP said he had moved some time ago for a return of the duties of the Comptroller of the Exchequer, who he imagined had' no control at all.— (Laughter.) This salary of 2,0001. a year was one of the most horrible jobs that existed. He thought it was a toss-up between the Comptroller and the Deputy- Comptroller, whose attendance was pretty nearly on a par. The fact was, the deputy was the working man, and he was most indefatigable and attentive. The comptroller himself was about .six months at his office, but the deputy did all the work. It was his intention to move to bring in a Bill that the Noble Lord (Mos teagle) should be removed from the office of comp troller, and the duties given to the deputy -comptroller, connecting them in some way with the Bank of England. In the present state of the House it was :hopeless to di vide, but he should protest against this as a gross job and a humbug. Dr. BOWRING said that in another session he should move Silo abolition of the Exchequer altogether; for, in the way in which the business was conducted, the Exchequer, instead of exercising any control, was nothing but an incumbranco. The Exchequer merely indorsed what the Treasury recommended, and then drew on the Bank of England for what was required. This was no security whatever to the revenue. On the other hand, when money had to be paid into the Bank to the credit of the revenue, ,the Exchequer required so many documents to be prepared and so many stops to be taken, that it was rendered a most complex matter. This applied to the case of fees , the receiver of which stated that he had th e greatest difficulty in getting the money into the Bank. Unfortunately the salary of the Comptroller of the Exchequer, 2,0001., was not voted by toe House, but was paid out of the consolidated fund. This was an anomaly which ought to be put an end to. Ho implored the Government to take these matters into consideration during the recess. Mr. GOULBURN said he feared that three months experience on the estimates Committee had given some of its members very little insight into the offices into which they had inquired. The practice was this: orders for payment were made by the Treasury, and it was the duty of the Exchequer to see that those orders were in a perfectly legal form. In several instances while he was in office irregularities had been detected. Ho thought it absurd to suppose that these duties might be discharged by the Bank of England. The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of 2,6801. for salaries and expenses of the State Paper-office. Mr. OSBORNE asked what the Committee meant by recommending "a fusion" of this office with the Record office. Did they mean the office should be burnt ? Dr. BOWRING said ho was not responsible for the literary beauties of the report; but the Committee thought that the offices might advantageously be brought together. Sir G. GREY thought it important that a distinction should be kept up between the papers of the State-paper office and those of the Public Record-office, however ad vantageous it might be to place them under the same management. Colonel SIBTIIORPE suggested that the office should be called!" the waste-paper-office."—(Laughter.) Mr. P. HOWARD spoke of the great assistance which persons engaged in literary pursuits derived from the public records. The vote was then agreed to. On the vote of 3,5401., for the expenses of the Eccle siastical Commission. Dr. BOWRING asked if the Government were pre pared to give effect to the recommendations which the Committee had made on this head. Sir G. GREY said that they must take time to con sider, before giving any distinct pledge on this subject. Vote agreed to. On the next vote, 236,0001. for the administration of the poor-laws, Col. SIBTHORP complained that this was an in crease of 26,0001. on last year. Mr. HUME thought that 236,000/. was an enormous sum for the mere administration of the poor-law, mad that it ought to be reduced.—(Hear.) Mr. OSBORNE said the vote showed that the system of centralisation was more expensive than that of local management.—(Hear.) The expense for the adminis tration of the Scotch poor-law only amounted to 3,8607. He should like to know whether the Scotch poor were well looked after? Mr. ELLIOT said they were not so well looked after as they ought to be.—(Hear.) _ Lord J. RUSSELL said that the expenses of the auditors, schoolmasters, schoolmistresses, and medical officers had nothing to do with the general administra tion of the poor-law, though they were included in the vote. It was very unfair to suppose that the increase had been caused by the centralisation. After a few words from Captain PECRELL and . Mr. MIINTZ Lord'EBRINGTON said that it had been made matter of complaint that the medical officers were underpaid; now as only half of that expense was paid by the State, any increase of it must involve a corresponding increase on the part of the guardians. The number of school, masters and schoolmistresses were inadequate to the demand, and consequently it was necessary to pay higher salaries. Mr. BRIGHT complained of the special expense, of inspectors. Mr. C. BULLER said the salary of inspectors was 7001., and they were paid a guinea a day for expen s es. supposition t however,l ie t considering 1 h eyresid etdheinlatoeunr theinspectors - dTohea.tlwt ahadso nh been were e fu put to, that a salary of 1,0001. w as necessary not too large. It app eare d to hi m t o have two scales of sa l ary. Tho snrtw be inspectors ssa r t o were y the t a h p e p or oin e t x e p d en a s t es. reducegreatd sca b l s e e of of o cen o l. central Y a e u a th r9 ori b ty esi w d as eg to keep up a system of inspection over the administration of the law, and establish a f ocus f rom which information could be derived with respect to the law. Mr. BRIGHT said that there were 11 salaries which amoun ted to 11,0001. i nspectors B n u s ti e t et° ap r p s e w ar i e th d that 7,5151. was es . paid l in addition for travelling and inci dental expenses. Th at was a great deal more than a guinea a day. Mr. BULLER sa i d that the usage of the of fi ce was to allow a guinea a day for personal expenses, and the ex i pensos of locomotion besides. lie thought that the sys tem which h a d b een hi t h erto a d opte d was a b a d one, ad all he could do was to establish a new one for the future. After a few words from Mr.OSBORNE, Mr. GLADSTONE said that the Right Hon. Gentle ma had appointed three new inspectors, and ho should like to know whether he allowed them the guinea a day ? Mr. C. BULLER did not wish to propose any altera tion, but he considered that there would be a difficulty in consequence of the arrangements which he had made being too economical.—(Laughter.) lie had proposed that the new inspectors should take office at 5001. a year, A instead of 7001,, and with no allowance of a guinea a ) in nent me- ntin t un y, ,s ISO 113. Eng can- nt in not does i not , un-