The Sun. — London, England, 1835-06-24 00:00:00

not? It seemed to him that if the amendment of his Hon. and Learned Friend were adopted, as soon as the new system was es tablished there would be two distinct sets of persons—the bur gessses by rents, and the freemen by self-election. He would now advert to the question of property. The rights of pro perty at present possessed by freemen were, generally speak ing, mere usurpation ; and the sooner the abuse was put an end to the better. It was thought by his Hon. and Learned Friend that a cruel injustice would be done by the Bill towards the freemen as regarded the Parliamentary franchise. It was no injustice to these who had now that franchise to say that from this time freemen should not possess it. The Reform Bill did not touch that point : it only provided that while free men were allowed to exist they should exercise the elective franchise. But was there any one so insane as to wish to tie up the bands of Parliament on this point for all time to come ? It appeared to him that the clause under consideration was essentially necessary for the purposes of the Bill. Let the Committee consider what the great mass of freemen were. They need not be householders ; they were not required to possess any property ; they were not called upon to pay any rate ; they might pass the greater part of the year in gaols. What was the consequence ? That they were in general in a low and degraded state, and were unable to withstand the temptation of a bribe. In almost all boroughs it was the free men who were notorious for their disposition to bribery. It was said by , his Hon. and Learned Friend that other classes of voters shared in the infamy of that imputation. For him self, he firmly believed that the freemen tainted the whole mass of electors, and that until they were eradicated it would be impossible to expect any thing like purity of election.— ( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It was no doubt true that by the proposed improvement some persons might suffer, but such must be the case with all human improvements. There was scarcely a Bill for the improvement of a highway which might not be protested against by some innkeeper as depriv ing him of the custom which he had enjoyed. Mr. D. W. HARVEY protested against the sweeping con demnation of burgesses in which the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman who had just spoken had indulged. He had charac terized all the burgesses in the kingdom as a class of per sons the like of whom could be found nowhere outside of a gaol. Now he (Mr. Harvey) had the honour during seven teen years to be returned to Parliament for the borough of Colchester ; and he would tell the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman that he found the poorer portion of his constituents were uniformly the most pure and the most virtuous. There was one observation in the able speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter which ought to be matter of grave consideration for those Hon. Members who were friendly to a more extended constituency than that which existed at present. It was, that the effect of the clause before the Committee would at once destroy no inconsider able portion of the constituency, and would eventually de stroy more than half that constituency. The number of per sons enjoying the elective franchise in the borough of Col chester was between eleven and twelve hundred ; of whom about half were of the class which had drawn down the ire of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General. A quarter of these would be immediately extinguished if this clause were passed ; and in the course of twenty years the whole of that class would be destroyed, and the constituency of Colches ter would be reduced to about five hundred. But what would be the case in places in which the entire constituency, including burgesses, at present amounted to only five hundred? Why, that there would be rotten boroughs in abundance. He confessed, however, that he was not unfriendly to the clause, for out of a mass of evil good was sometimes produced. It had been absurdly said at the time of the discussions on the Reform Bill, that that was a final measure. It was impossible, however, now to doubt, that at no very distant period those persons who were called into being by the present Bill to shoose the officers cf corporations, would feel that the same wisdom which directed them in the choice of a mayor and common council might direct them in the choice of a Member of Parliament ; and that in the end the Parliamen tary constituency would be made co-extensive with the muni cipal constituency. The Hon. and Learned Attorney-General had passed very lightly over one or two of the remarks which had been made by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exe ter. He said little or nothing about chartered or endowed schools. The charters of some schools expressly declared that the boys should be the sons of burgesses. No,v, if the clause were agreed to, in five and- twenty years the burgesses would be swept away.- -( " No; freemen.") lint freemen were burgesses. Now, after the pssing of this Bill no person would be admitted on the roll of burgesses. In schools, therefore, the charters of which declared that the boys should be the sons of burgesses, if the burgesses were destroyed the qualification would be destroyed. He did not say that this might not be remedied ; but when there was a race of amity with reference to the Bill, he thought it desirable to throw into the common stock of information whatever suggestion; might occur to him. The Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter had somewhat overstated the case of the charity of Sir Thomas White ; although he (Mr. Harvey) was sure that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had no intention of overstating it.—(The Hon. Member for Southwark here entered into a detail respecting the charity in question, the exact nature of which we were unable to collect.) lie was glad to hear from the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General that the chartered schools were to be thrown open, not only to burgesses but to all others. This would be especially advantageous to Col chester; for at present, although there was a considerable en dowed school there, the master received all the money, and there were no boys in it.—( A laugh.) Sir W. FOLLETT explained. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended that it would be impossible—not merely difficult, but impossible—that any good or any tolerable system could not g o on if the amend ment proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter were adopted. In a few years, what would be the state of most of the corporate towns ? There would be one class of burgesses—the useful and the important—contributing to all the expenses, and performing all the duties ; and they would be surrounded by an aristocratic class, idle and useless. It would be impossible, with reference to the common principles of human nature, that such a system could exist without jea lousies and heart-burnings that must eventually destroy it. To say, as the Learned Gentleman did, fiat the clause deprived a number of innocent persons of their vested rights was begging the whole question. The class of persons called freemen en joyed among other things valuable rights of common ; but it was not because they were freemen that those rights were be stowed upon them, but because they performed certain duties. As soon, therefore, as those duties were thrown upon others, and they ceased to exercise the functions which entitled them to enjoy the rights they did, nothing could be more natural than that they should cease to have the exclusive enjoyment of those rights. With respect to the case of charitable trusts, put by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite, all that the Bill did was to change the trustees ; and should any doubt arise as to the disposal of the funds, the Court of Chancery would solve it, and take care that they went as nearly as possible in the channel intended by the donors. If this reasoning sufficed to deprive the freemen of the control of property, it would be at least equally good for depriving their posterity of the right to vote for Members of Parliament. They had the right of voting for Members of Parliament bestowed upon them, not because they were freemen, but be cause they had other rights and duties to which the right of voting for Members of Parliament appeared naturally to at tach itself. But the moment it was ascertained to be incon sistent with the interests of the country that such a body as the freemen should exist, their privileges as a distinct body natu rally disappeared along with themselves. Mr. C. BARCLAY said that he had alitays considered the continuance of the freemen a great blot in the Reform Bill; but as Parliament had decided that they should retain their right of voting for Members of the national Legislature, he could not consistently deprive them of the power of voting for municipal officers. The objection urged against them that they were constantly guilty of bribery was little of an ob jection in this case, compared with what it was to their voting for Members of Parliament, inasmuch as here the temptation could not be any thing like so strong. Indeed he was satisfied that the abolition of the freemen as a class would introduce the greatest corruption and jobbing into municipal elections. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said he should give his support to the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter, for he thought the freemen were far from deserving, as a body, the obloquy heaped upon them. He could, from his own ex perience, bear testimony to the virtue of the freemen of Co ventry, more of whom had voted for him than for any former Member, and he could safely say that he had not been asked for a farthing by any of them. Besides, the clause would in effect be a great infringement upon the Reform Act, for it would greatly reduce the constituency. In Coventry the constituency would, if this clause were agreed to, be reduced from 3,500 to about 1,500.—( Hear.) Mr. VERNON SMITH thought that this clause would be most beneficial, both in its direct and indirect effects.—( Hear. ) It was indeed one of the main principles of the Bill ; and so far - was he from thinking his Noble Friend had not done suffi cient in the way of preserving the rights of the freemen, that he was tempted to suggest to him that power should be given in the Bill to buy them up at a fixed price, in order that the new system they were establishing might bear no marks upon it of the corruption of the old. With regard to this clause being an infringement of the compact made on the passing of the Reform Bill, he must beg to say that it was no such thing. The other branch of the Legislature desired to make certain alterations in the Reform Bill, to which this House consented, but that was not entering into a compact. The principle on which the system of freemen stood was the corruption of the many for the purpose of supporting the power of the few. The freeman's rights were, with the exception of apprentice ship, acquired in no way entitling the party to honour or re spect. The most frequent method of acquiring those rights, next to apprenticeship, was by birth ; and he must say, that however valuable an hereditary legislature might be, heredi. tart' electorship could have no value at all. He hoped, there fore, that the clause would be allowed to remain as it now stood. Sir J. GRAHAM rose to make a suggestion to the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter, which might shorten the dis suasion, and, at the same time, not cause a departure from justice in decision. He did not wish to laud the purity of the freemen of Coventry with some Honourable Members, to vilify the character of freemen generally with the Attorney- Gene ral—( Cheers)—or to defend the annihilation of an entire class with the Solicitor-General. The amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter went both to preserve the Par liamentary franchise of those who had acquired an inchoate right ihereto, and also their inchoate rights of property. What he would suggest was, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should divide his amendment into two parts, the first of which relating to inchoate electoral rights, applied to this clause, whilst the second, relating to inchoate rights of property, really -- ,- c oncerned the tenth clause. Many gentlemen might be in dined to epee with the Hon. and Learned Member in one -• branch of his amendment, - whilst they would not in the other. " He would now shortly apply himself to another point. He wasbouni to kidmit that it was with reluctance that he, as a ~:~~~ Member of Lord Grey's Government, consented to that change in their original measure of the Reform Bill which extended the right of voting to freemen beyond the lives of those who then enjoyed it • but he differed altogether from the view which had been taken! by the Member of Lord Mel bourne's Administration who had just sat down—that the ar rangement being once made, it was now to be lightly regar ded.—( Hear.) He did not mean to say that the arrangement was to be held permanently binding upon the Legislature ; but when he heard the Hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Har vey) frankly exclaiming, as he had done that evening, " Re formers, be comforted—in this clause I see the seeds of further change in the representation of the people,"—he (Sir James Graham) would say to those who had been colleagues of his in the Government of Earl Grey, " Beware 1 If you are de sirous of resisting further change, adhere to the compact which as Members of Earl Grey's Administration, you readily ac quiesced in"—acquiesced in, he should ever consider, ho nestly, because it smoothed the passage of a great measure which it would otherwise have been difficult, if not impossible, to carry. He called upon them to beware not to set the ex ample of a premature or hasty departure from the provisions of the Reform Bill. He held this clause of the Bill then be- fore them to contain an unnecessary departure from the provi sions of the Reform Act. He had a still stronger objection to it--he considered it not only an unnecessary departure, but there was this which was a damning vice in it, it was an indi rect departure from it.—.( Loud cheers.) If the question were raised at all, let it be raised directly—let it be raised manfully—let it be raised openly and avowedly in the shape of a Bill to amend and correct the measure passed two years since for reforming the representation of the people.— ( Cheering.) If the thing were to be done at all, let it be done openly—let it be done in a manner which should afford to those whose franchise they proposed to destroy, or, as the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General had said, " to an- - _ nihilate," an opportunity to be heard. He ( Sir J. Graham) denied that since the passing of the Reform Bill any material new facts had arisen which could now warrant the introduction of a change which was then resisted. If such facts had arisen, if they were notorious, let them be brought to light • if any convincing reasons existed; let them be brought forward in an avowed shape—let them be introduced in the form of a direct and positive measure. But he ( Sir J. Graham) said , especi ally after the warning which had been held out by the Hon. Member for Southwark, that there were in this clause the seeds of further change in the representation of the people, that he should pause before he consented to the adoption of such a provision as that contained in the clause then under the con sideration of the Committee. If his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Exeter would adopt the suggestion which he ( Sir J. Graham) had ventured to throw out, he should have great pleasure in supporting 'll, amendment.—( Cheers. ) Lord J. RUSSELL thought it necessary at that time, after the warning which his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) had had the goodness to direct to him, and to those who bad had the good fortune of being members of Lord Grey's Ad ministration—he thought it necessary, after that warning, in the first place, to say that he thanked his Right Hon. Friend for his advice ; and, in the second place, to tell him the reason and the motive upon which he was not disposed to act upon that advice.—( Cheers.) He owned he was not the less in disposed to follow that advice because it was not the first time on which he had observed that his Right Hon. Friend, who with him (Lord J. Russell) and with others encountered so boldly the dangers and obstacles which were placed in the way of the Reform Bill—dangers and obstacles as great perhaps as any Government ever encountered—did seem, since that period, he ( Lord J. Russell) knew not why or wherefore, to allow to enter into his mind certain fears and apprehen sions—(great cheering)—which did seem to him (Lord John Russell) rather to betoken that his Right Hon. Friend in con curring with his celleagues in bringing forward the Reform Bill, had not duly, and soberly, and manfully, weighed those consequences which must necessarily and unavoidably result from it.—( Cheers.) He (Lord John Russell) had observed, rather with some degree ot amusement than otherwise, that it was quite sufficient for the Hon. Member for Southwark, or the Hon. Member for Middlesex, or any other Gentleman who carried his opinions much further than he (Lord John Russell) was prepared or disposed to go—it was quite suffi cient, he observed, for any one of those Gentlemen to speak of further and greater reforms—reforms which they considered to be wise in themselves, and which hereafter must irecesa rily be carried into effect—it was sufficient for those Gentle men to mention any one of those subjects at once to fill his Right Honourable Friend's mind with dismay ttrui terro, - , lest everything that was valuable in the Constitution should sud denly and for ever be swept away—(laughter and cheers)— lest they should arrive at that state of perpetual and rapid change against which there would be no security whatever. (Cheers from the Opposition.) He knew not the meaning of that cheer ; his opinions were directly the reverse of the opinions which that cheer was intended to mark ; his opinion was, that the people of this country were indeed bent upon reforms— het there never was a country in which the opinions in favour of Reform were weighed more carefully, in which every step towards Reform was taken with greater care, or in which there was a greater indisposition to precipitate any measure tendi.ig to endanger the institutions of the country, or to impair the security of property. If a measure of that description were introduced, a rebound of public feeling instantly took place against it ; and whilst an opinion prevailed in favour of whole some and even great reforms, he did not believe there was in this country anything like a violent or mad enthusiasm in favour of measures which could in any respect be dangerous to the peace or the ancient institutions of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Then, his Right Hon. Friend said, "If you are dis posed to change, do it not indirectly."— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Now, really, when his Right Hon. Friend spoke in that tone, he (Lord John Russell) might ask him whether he meant to say that his Majesty's Government were not bringing forward their Bill for Municipal Reform honestly and fairly to the purpose.—( Hear, hear.) He might ask his Right Hon. Friend whether he meant to say that all this machinery with respect to Corporations was only mail( to conceal some greater change in the Reform Bill ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) If his Right Hon. Friend did not mean that, he would ask him why he talked of their doing that in directly which ought to be done directly ?—( Cheers.) The clause then under consideration, and to which his Right Hon. Friend had taken so strong an objection, was, as he (Lord J. Russell) would show, a necessary consequence of their adopt ing the new franchise. If that w ere so, then he said that nei ther his Right Hon. Friend, nor any other Member in the House, had a right to say that they were introducing it for the sake of altering the Reform Bill. It was not introduced for such a purpose, but simply for the sake of amending and reforming the different Corporations throughout the kingdom ; in the effort to do which, it certainly did make an alteration, and, he did not deny, a great alteration, in the provisions of the Reform Bill. That, however, was a consequence which it was difficult, if not altogether impossible, to avoid, when they came to consider the right of voting as applied to muni cipal reform. For let the House consider what was the na ture of the proposition submitted by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had thought that the Government were bringing forward a measure which they had not sufficiently considered—if he thought they were bringing forward a Bill the consequences of which they had not sufficiently weighed—he (Lord J. Russell) must say that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had submitted a proposition, by way of amendment, the conse quences of which, as a lawyer and a statesman, he could not have sufficiently regarded. What was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's proposition? He (Lord J. Russell) was inclined to put to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the difficulty which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had put to him ; for it certainly applied much more to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's proposition than it did to his: The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, "If you propose to do away with the freemen—if you think them worthy of punishment—if they have not conducted themselves in a manner to be entitled to the elective franchise, deprive them of it at once; but if you do not mean to do that, preserve to them their privileges." Such was the argument, such the dilemma in which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman at tempted to place the Government. But he (Lord J. Russell) said, with respect to this question, " If these freemen are worthy to exercise the right of freemen, if they are what they pretend to be, burgesses and members of the body corporate, keep them as the body corporate."—(Cheers.) If the freemen were fit to exercise all the privileges attaching to the cha racter of a freeman, why did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman admit the first part of the clause, which deprived them altoge ther of the possibility of being members of the body corporate— which deprived them of any voice in the election of the mayor or town council, and created them into a body for a separate purpose, exercising their rights for separate ends, but with this mark of degradation upon them, that having exercised for many hundred years the rights of freemen for Corporation purposes, they were now to continue the name of freemen, under Corporations from the structure of which, and the ma nagement and controul of which, they were to be wholly ex cluded ?—( Hear, hear.) Then, on the other hand, he said, if in the place of these freemen, they had, by the 6th clause of the Bill, obtained a better body of constituents, to whom should be intrusted the power of electing the governing bodies in all Corporate towns ? For what purpose was it, for what end was it, that they were to preserve a body of men who exist solely by Corporate rights, and who yet exist for purposes totally separate from Corporate rights ?—( Hear, hear.) With that view let the Committee look at the amendment moved by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter. It provided that no thing contained in the Act should extend to prevent admission to the freedom of the town of all such persons as, under the laws now in force, were entitled to be admitted, or in any way to affect the rights, privileges, &c. of such persons. Now he ( Lord J. Russell) imagined that there were two separate ends, for which it was proposed that this right of freedom should be preserved, and for neither of which, he confessed, he thought it ought to be continued.—( Laughter and cheers.) First, the general right which they had long enjoyed, and which was still preserved to them by the Reform Bill, of electing mem bers to serve in Parliament. He (Lord John Russell) was far from saying that the House ought to introduce a special provision, or to pass a special Act for the disfranchisement of the freemen ; but, on the other hand, he said that if the House preserved the franchise of the freemen only for the purpose of electing Members to serve in Parliament, it would be doing a thing calculated to have a very prejudicial effect upon the Parliamentary right, as well as upon the interests of the Municipal Corporations.—( Hear, hear.) He thought it had been well put by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Soli citor-General, that the effect of preserving to the freemen their Parliamentary rights alone, must in a great degree tend to prevent the good government of the corporate towns. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Exeter had quoted the case of Coventry, and although he (Lord John Russell), in consequence of that quotation, felt it necessary for a moment to allude to the case, still, after all that had been said upon it in the course of the debate, he should not think of detaining the House, and giving his opinion at length upon it. It appeared to him that the case of Coventry was one of THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 24, 1835. these very cases which showed the mischief of preserving the rights of freemen for these purposes. There was a charity in that town called the Four Pound Charity, of which it was stated that one of the rights of admission to it was derived from a person's voting in such a way for Members of Parlia ment as was approved by the Corporation ; and that it was a reason for the non-admission of a person if he did not vote in the way that the Corporation approved, or if, to use the local and familiar phrase, he did not bring money into their wel l. —( Hear, hear.) It was stated that out of the 1,273 free men of Coventry, 936 belonged to the Corporation side, and 337 only to the other. Then what did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman propose to do? He proposed to keep up the right of the freemen to vote in municipal elections as well as in elections for Members of Parliament, and at the same time, of course, to keep up their right to the 41. charity, leaving to the Corporation the power of distributing that charity, as it had always hitherto done, for Parliamentary purposes. By this means the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would preserve the briber and the bribee.—( Hear, hear.) But then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's amendment went on to say, that the rights, privileges, and property, to which the freemen were now by law entitled, should not in any way be affected by the present measure. Now many of those rights and privileges were of a description most hurtful to the towns in which they were allowed to exist. To a small body of freemen, for in stance, was given a complete monopoly of trade, and an exemption from all the tolls imposed upon those who had not obtained the freedom of the town. And why were the freemen picked out from among their fellow-citizens for the enjoyment of these exclusive rights and privileges? He did not wish to say any thing disrespectful towards that claw of persons ; but he must say that they were not selected on account of any peculiar merit that they possessed. They were chosen as a small body from out of the rest of the inhabitants, and were vested with mo nopolies and privileges for a certain purpose. These mono polies and privileges it was now proposed to preserve ; and in preserving, they would preserve what ? Not the corporate franchise, which might be of some use—not the corporate rights which they had long enjoyed, but the Parliamentary liVanchise alone ; which Parliamentary franchise, as the House well knew, had given to them a title to the charities of the corporations, and had been one of the greatest temptations to a violation of the proper and legitimate use of their rights and privileges. Therefore he was not much inclined to agree with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Indeed he really did not know how the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's proposition was to be carried into effect. Government proposed certain machinery for the correction of corporate abuses, and by which the mayor and town council were in future to be elected. But how were they to contrive that those freemen who belonged to no corporation, and whose rights only were preserved to give them a title to corporate charities and to the exercise of the Par liamentary franchise—how were they to devise a machinery by which persons possessing such anomalous rights were to have all those rights confirmed, he confessed he was utterly at a loss to conceive. He would ask the Committee would there not be the greatest danger, if on the one side they were to create a municipal body having the rights and privileges which munici pal bodies by this Bill were to possess, and at the same time to place by the side of them another body receiving a monopoly of charities, and enjoying a monopoly of trade? Would there not, he asked, be the greatest danger, if such a state of things were allowed to exist, of exciting a constant rivalry in corpo rate towns, of depriving the corporate goverment of the au thority and influence it ought to possess, and of giving rise to continual struggles between the old corporators and old free men, to set up their influence against the corporate govern merit established under the new law—(Loud cheers)—thus endangering the good order, quiet, and peace of the town, which it ought to be the first object of the House to secure in legislating on a subject of this kind ?--(Cheers.) He would cot now enter into the separate question of how far the pecu nii.ry rights preserved by the tenth clause should be extended; notice of a motion upon that point had been given by an Hon. Gentleman then in the House, and he (Lord John Russell) would reserve his opinion upon it until that motion was brought forward. He would merely state that the wish of the Go vernment was to preserve all existing pecuniary rights. That was the principle of the tenth clause ; but if it could be shown to his conviction that that principle ought to be extended be yond the provisions of that clause, he should be ready to yield to conviction, and should think that instead of injuring he vs a, rather improving that part of the Bill.—( Cheers.) The pre sent, however, was a different proposition ? it was a proposi tion, as he considered it, to maintain— and to maintain for pur poses most injurious—those old freemen whose rights were proposed to be abolished by this Bill. Fur his own part, he acknowledged he should be disposed to say that the proposi tion made by the Hon. Member for N,wcastle in the eat ly part of the debate, to preserve the freemen for corporate purposes, would be the better proposition of the two. He thought the present proposition was one which would mutilate, if not de stroy the efficiency of the Bill ; and he should, therefore, give it his most strenuous opposition. He felt quite sure that if the House were to consent to it, it would afterwards have rea son to repent its not availing itself of so fair an opportunity o, obtaining a full and efficient reform of Corporation abuses.— (Ctieers.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM would not detain the House one moment longer than was positively necessary ; but as his Noble Friend had alluded so pointedly and personally to him, it was absolutely incumbent on him to say a few words. His Noble Friend had rather insinuated that his advice would not be very agreeable to him (Sir James Graham.) He could not return the compliment. He was at all times not only anxious to re ceive advice from his Noble Friend, but he had been so long associated with him, and he esteemed him so sincerely, that even reproof from his Noble Friend would never be received unkindly by him. His Noble Friend said he had observed with surprise his ( Sir J. Graham's) recent conduct, and the view which he had taken of public affairs since the passing of the Reform Bill. He thought his Noble Friend would do him justice, when he said that, to the best of his ability, no col league who sat by his side on the Treasury Bench during that eventful period, supported the measure of Reform more strenuously, more firmly, more constantly than he did. — (Cheers from the Opposition.) He did so on a principle well known to his Noble Friend—a principle avowed by the head of the Government under whom he and his Noble Friend hod served. The principle enunciated by Lord Grey on more than one occasion, was this—that he and his colleagues brought forward the measure of Reform in the representation of the people—extensive as he admitted it to be, great as even the supporters of it admitted it to be beyond their expecta tions—for one reason, and that reason was this, that because it was so extensive he sought to find a resting-place whereon he might resist steadfastly, manfully, and constantly, all further change.--(Loud cheering.) He did not presume to say that that understanding was binding on Parliament.—( Great cheering from the Ministerial side.) He did not presume to say that it was binding on that House ; but on himself as a matter of honour, whilst he continued to take any part in the public affairs, he did consider it as binding as any obligation that a public man could take upon himself in the face of the nation.----( Loud cheers.) Those who had been his colleagues in Lord Grey's Government might take a different view of the subject, , but upon that he had nothing to say. It was enough for him to be the guardian of his own honour and consistency, and thus he had been led to avow, distinctly and plainly, what was his view on the subject. His Noble Friend had also stated that he was astonished at the degree of alarm which he (Sir James Graham) seemed to feel when certain Gentlemen, who were the Noble Lord's opponents as well as his own, rose to express certain opinions. He admiited that when he was a party to the introduction of the large measure of Reform to which he had referred, he did anticipate other changes as a natural consequence of it. For instance, he considered a Reform of the Church as its necessary conse quence ; he still regarded it as such ; but he did not anticipate then, nor would he support now, as a Reform of the Eccle siastical Establishment, the alienation of the property of the Church---( Opposition cheers)—or the separation of the Church Establishment from the State.—(" Questioa" from the Minis terial side, answered by cheering on the Opposition.) So, also, he had anticipated the necessity of Municipal Reform, and in the spirit of that anticipation had supported the second reading of the Bill then under consideration. Indeed he was most anxious to give effect, not only to the principle, but to all the necessary details of that Bill. His Noble Friend had asked him if he considered this to be an indirect measure of Corporate Reform ? He certainly was not so disposed to re gard it. He looked upon it as a direct and complete measure of Municipal Reform, and it was on that ground that he had supported its principle ; but he maintained that there was one passage in it which had an indirect tendency, and that passage was contained in the clause then under consideration. He maintained that that part of the clause was not germane to the Bill, and was not necessarily connected with it ; in fact, that it was unnecessary, tending only to tamper indirectly with the representation of the people, as fixed by the Reform Bill. It was for this reason that he opposed it. The Noble Lord then said, he was rather astonished at his ( Sir J. Graham) timid caution, when he heard the bold propositions made by their common opponents, the Hon. Members for Southwark and Middlesex. He ( Sir J. Graham) must confess, it was not the caution of his Noble Frieed that astonished him, but the bold ness of his Noble Friend , when he saw the measures into which h e was Cheers. hurried, ) not by his opponents, but by his sup porters.—( Sir W. FOLLETT expressed his readiness to acquiesce in the suggestion made by his Right Hon. Friend ( Sir James Graham). Therefore, with the permission of the Committee, he would withdraw the amendment in the terms in which it then stood, for the purpose of introducing another amendment, embodying his Right Hon. Friend's suggestion. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the course which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman now proposed to take, afforded a direct answer to the charge of indirectness which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend.—( Hear.) Lord STANLE Y defended the rights of the freemen, and intended that they were not the poor, wretched, degraded, demoralized set of beings which the Hon. and Learned Attor ney-General had described them, nor were they persons whose rights the same learned authority had asserted to be a usurpation. He should like to know how that could be called a usurpation, the origin of which no lawyer could trace. The Attorney-General had said that freemen were a class of voters who had been constantly guilty of corrupt practices, and that until they were entirely done away, there was no chance of getting rid of such practices. He appealed to any Gentleman in the House, w ho had a constituency of freemen, whether he was prepared to sanction this description of the character of freemen ? He had himself seen something of that class of society, and although he knew that, under very strong temptation, they had been led astray—( Hear, hear)---- yet he also knew that for the three last elections they bad re sisted every species of temptation, and had acted honestly.— (Hear, hear.) He looked with regret at the hard line that Gentlemen were inclined to draw between different classes in society. He should regret that men should feel that the mere possession of property would entitle them to share in municipal rights. It had always been the practice in this coun try for poor men to enjoy the privilege of municipal freedom. The Poor Law Bill had already been a severe blow on the feel- 1 ings of the p oorer c l asses .—( Hear.) They could not, thore fore help looki ng w ith so me degree of jealousy on the Legisla- , ture withholding from them that right which they had hitherto enjoyed for a long series of years. They would see that this House was becoming more and more the exclusive possession of the middle classes of society, while the rights and feelings of the lower classes would eventually altogether cease being represented in it. It was remarked that the whole stress of the arguments adduced in support of the present clause was, that it would be an improvement of the Reform Bill, and would correct the error formerly committed in prolonging the right of the freemen to vote for Members of Parliament. The clause, therefore, was not proposed merely as being incidental to Corporation Reform, but with a view to destroy the rights which the freemen enjoyed under the Reform Bill. He hoped the House would not be induced to make this first invasion of that measure, which was declared to be a final measure by the very men who were now endeavouring to evade it. The question was again put, when - Mr. ROBINSON rose amidst loud cries of" Divide, di vide I" He was the representative of a large body of those freemen whose interests were attempted to be invaded by this Bill in a manner to which he felt himself_ bound to offer the most decided opposition.—( Hear, hear.) He ventured to as sert that the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Go vernment, would not dare to attempt to do by a direct mea sure, that which he was attempting to do indirectly by a pro position to reform the Municipal Corporations of this couutry. —(Loud Opposition cheers, and loud cries of " Order, order ! bar, bar I) The Noble Lord proposed, in a measure ostensi bly having for its object the reform of Municipal Corporations, to deprive persons of the privilege which they now enjoyed of returning Members to this House. Now he asked the Noble Lord, who was a party to the Parlimentary Reform Bill, which the Government of Lord Grey declared to be a final measure, whether he would venture to come forward, in the face of this House and of the country, to propose a measure for disfranchising existing freemen of the right of voting for Mem bers of Parliament ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to say, in answer to the question put to him by the Hon. Gentle man, that the Hon. Gentleman did not seem to understand the object of this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Its object was not to cll.. prive existing freemen of the right of voting for Members of Parliament.—( Ministerial cheers.) He thought the clause was already sufficiently clear upon this point ; otherwise he would propose the insertion of words that should expressly say that all existing rights of freemen to vote for Members of Parliament should be preserved.—( Cheers.) But according to his con struction of the clause the insertion of any such words would be totally unnecessary. The House would permit him to explain what the nature of the clause really was. The proposal of his Majesty's Ministers was this :—that all corporate bodies should in future consist of burgesses who were we-payers, according to the sixth section of this Bill ; and that there should be nu other burgesses or freemen whatsoever. Therefore, after the existing lives of freemen were extinct, there certainly would not be any freemen in any borough who would have a right to vote for Members of Parliament.—(Laughter and cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. ROBINSON understood the object of the Bill per fectly well. He As not complaining that existing freemen would be deprived of the right of voting for Members of Par liament ; but what he complainod of was, that the descendants of those freemen, having inchoate rights to be freemen, were attempted to be deprived of that right of voting. He consi dered it a most disingenuous course of proceeding on the part of any Minister or any Cabinet whatever to do that which the Noble Lord and his colleagues were now doing. The Noble Lord himself just now admitted that he and his colleagues of Earl Grey's Government assented somewhat reluctantly to the admission of the rights of freemen under the Reform Bill, and that they did so because they considered it would smooth the passage of that Bill through Parliament. We were to understand, then, that the Noble Lord's political morality consisted in this—that a Minister might state that he was willing to consent that certain rights should be preserved in order to get a Bill through both Houses of Parliament, and then, having obtained that obiect, he might. two years aft .1.- w4rds, down t., llou4t. and to hose very rights overboard..---( Loud Orpo,it;on ebt-ers. ) 11 , 2 cared not to what misrepresentations his conduct miglt sub ject him, but he never would be a p-trty to proceedings that were alike disingenuous and dishonourable to any Minister.— ( Renewed Opp ,sition cheers.) He should like to have asked the Learned Attorney-General, if he had been in his place, whether those acts of usurpation, of which he had so loudly complained, were not known at the time of passing the Re form Bill as well as they were now ? He denied altogether the corruption attributed solely to the freemen. He believed it was proved before the Ipswich Committee that the larger portion of persons bribed were 10/. householders, and not freemen. But he should like to ask the Noble Lord upon what principle it was that he was so earnest in preserving the rights of another set of persons, whose claims could not be put in competition with those of the freemen of Corporations moarit the rights of those persons whose names were on the Pension List ?—(Cheers.) How tender were the feelings exhibited by the Noble Lord for the rights of individuals on that occasion.—( Cheers.) In conclusion, he though that this clause would do more to shake public confidence in the pro ceedings of this House than any other measure that had been brought forward since he had had the honour of a seat in Parliament. Mr. CHARLES BULLER then rose, but the cries of " Divide 1" and " Withdraw I" made it impossible to hear more than a few detached sentences of the Hon. and Learned Member's speech. Some gentlemen (he said) had complained that this question was not brought forward in a proper and direct manner; but, for his part, he could not un derstand how there could possibly be any equivocation in the course adopted. Was there any reason why . his Majesty's Ministers should endeavour to carry their object in an indi rect manner ; and even if they desired to do so, what possible hope was there that they would escape the vigilance of those alert advocates whom they now saw so earnestly vindi cating the poor man's rights—rights so justly dear to him ? —( Ceers and laughter.) There could be no motive, then, for Ministers to make such an attempt • and, certainly, the dis cussion. which they had this night heard, proved that such an attempt would have been most monstrous indeed.—( Hear, hear.) These freemen were the worst features of our repre sentative system, and were a curse upon the new con stituency. He could not refrain expressing his surprise at the doctrines which had been advanced by Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen on the other side. He must confess that lie began to feel great alarm for the stability of the monarchical institutions of this country, when he observed the democratic tone which those Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen sometimes took.—( Loud cheering.) He thought that if ever the limited monarchy of this empire should be superseded by a democratic republic, it would be occasioned by the bidding which those Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen seemed so much disposed to make for the sake of a little tem porary popularity.—( Ministerial cheers.) When he heard the Noble Lord (the Member for Liverpool) speaking of the rights of the poor man, he was reminded of the time when he first had the honour of a seat in Parliament. He used then to hear Mr. Hunt (the Member for Preston) advocate the poor man's rights.—( Cheers.) That Hon. Member sat where the Noble Lord was now seated ; and the language which the Noble Lord had this night used, when claiming for these poor men the right to vote, was exactly the language which Mr. Henry Hunt was wont to use in support of universal suffrage. —( Loud cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then stated that freemen were more open to corruption than any other class of voters; and he referred to the evidence taken before the Municipal Corporation Commissioners in support of this proposition. In one borough it had been the usual practice to chalk up the price of a vote on the shutters of the committee-rooms.--(Cries of " Name, name.") In another place the candidates used openly to give 15!. and a pig for a vote ; and the pig was paraded in the streets, decorated with the colours of the candidate who gave it.—(Loud cries of " Name, name.") He was exceedingly sorry to disap point Hon. Gentlemen by not naming the places ; but he begged to refer them to the four volumes of evidence which were accessible to all.—(" Oh, oh l" " Name, name.") If he were obliged to name the places, he would say that one of them was Nottingham—(Tremendous cheering from the Opposition)—and the other Maidstone.—( Renewed Opposi tion cheering.) But while he mentioned these two names, he begged to say that there were three other instances of corrupt practices, of a much more remarkable character ; he alluded to Norwich, Ipswich, and Oxford.—(Loud Ministerial cheers.) Were these men, he would ask, to be entrusted with the fran chise ?—( Hear, hear.) Could it be said that this House would be infringing on the purity of the Constitution by touching the rights of such voters as these ? He called upon the House to take away this franchise, even on account of the freemen themselves, whom it degraded, demoralized, and impove rished. But it was said that a compact had been made at the p ass ing of the Reform Bill, by which the rights of free men were to be preserved. If any such compact had been a m n a d d a l i e m t t t h h e e r p a b r o t n i e d s . with e t w h t h o e m H i o t u w se as of m L ad o e rd c s, om if e forward the com pact were with them, state that the only condition on which they agreed to the Reform Bill was, that a particular class of 'eaters should be kept up, who could be corrupted by the money of the aristocracy.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side, and cries of " Oh, oh I" from the Opposition.) Yes ; he would repeat, corrupted by the money of the aristocracy. Let not the House suppose that this zeal to preserve the rights of freemen sprung purely out of regard to the poor man's rights.—( Cheers.) No ; this House—the country at large—could perceive that the only reason this cry was raised was, that the aristocracy might preserve the rights of men whose franchise they could purchase.—( Cheers.) Captain BERKELEY was bound to say on behalf of those whom he represented, that if the clause were carried, one half of his constituents would be at once disfranchised—(hear, hear !)----they being too the very class of persons on whom the franchise was conferred only two years ago. He should vote for the amendment for the very reason which had been stated by the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud, Lord John Russell —namely, that these freemen were allowed to retain their franchise under the Reform Bill, for the mere purpose of enabling the then Government to conciliate, and to bring that Reform Bill to a successful termination.—(Cheers.) As this argument was urged when the Reform Bill was intro duced, and as he saw no reason for depriving the very same class of persons of their franchise now, he should support the amendment. Lord STANLEY would not trouble the Committee lite rally for more than five minutes. His Right Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland ( Sir James Graham) had been charged with unfairness, in stating that the clause indirectly accomplished an object which it sought to conceal. He (Lord Stanley) complained of it as an indirect mode of pro ceeding, for this reason, that the Bill now before the House professed to be a measure for the regulation of the municipal Corporations of England and Wales. An Honourable Gentleman who had just now spoken, following tho ex- ample of other Honourable Members of that House, had alumniated, he would venture to say, the great body of the freemen of this country. Now he did not mean to con tend that the freemen, as a class, had been, or perhaps were, either pure or immaculate—( Hear, hear)—but then he be lieved that no body of electors in the world was absolutely so— (Cheers) —and this he would say, that be they as pure as perfection itself, or be they as foul and as base as they were represented to be, even by the Hon. and Learned Attorney- General—(Tremendous cheering from the Opposition)--be they altogether and exclusively fit to exercise electoral func tions, or be they wholly and utterly incapable to exercise even the lowest of those functions, to those functions the present measure did not propose to admit them ; from those functions it did not propose to exclude them.—(Cheers. ) They were now called upon to discuss the propriety of ad mitting them to exercise political functions. The question merely was, their fitness as a municipal body. Then what became of the great and grave objection which had been urged against the class of voters coming under the deno mination of freemen ? Why, the objection, after all, merely amounted to this—that they were unfit to exercise a fran chise which was not sought to be conferred upon them by this Bill for political purposes, but a franchise they were permitted to retain by another Bill for other purposes ; that other measure forming no part of the present discussion. He stood upon the plain and simple ground, that the rights of the freemen were solemnly guaranteed, as his Noble Friend had said, to secure the passing of the Reform Bill. If that measure of reform were now sought to be rescinded, the fair and manly course was to come down to that House, and move its being rescinded by a separate and definite measure ; not for the ostensible purpose of conceding or taking away municipal rights, but avowedly for the purpose of again deal ing with the franchise. His grounds of objection to the clause as it stood, and his reasons for adopting in preference the amendment which had been moved, were simply these—that what his Majesty's Government proposed to do was unneces sary for the object they professed to have in view ; that it was unjust, inasmuch as it was in direct opposition to their own solemn guarantee given two years ago, and if they sought to do away with that guarantee they ought to have done so directly by a political measure—not indirectly and by a muni cipal one.—( Cheers, and loud cries of " Divide.") Colonel SIBTHORP, amid the greatest confusion, ex pressed his opinion that Hon. Gentlemen opposite were afraid to hear the truth : denied with great vehemence that he had the slightest wish to strain his lungs ; and wound up by observing that such a course as the present would never reconcile the people to a Reforming Administration.—(The Hon. and Gal lant Member resumed his seat amidst protracted cheering.) Mr. PRAED was desirous of asking a question of the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud, a question which he should have asked before had he not been prevented from addressing the Committee by a threat of the Hon. Member for Desbyshire (Mr. Gisborne) that he woulkl come forward with a statement relative to the borough he represented and reply upon him. He wished to ask the Noble Lord what he proposed to do with regard to the existing freemen, whose rights he proposed to continue ?—he wished to know whether the Noble Lord pro posed to continue them still on the burgess roll, or to have a separate Act made out expressly for their use. Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that with respect to the existing freemen, it was only ncecessary that their names should be enrolled upon a register, and continued upon it as long as they lived, according to the precedent of the first Re form Act. No new names would be entered on the register, and no difficulty, he imagined, could arise. Mr. PRAED suggested, that in that case the same machi nery which was used with respect to the existing freemen might be applied to more remote rights. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was of opinion that the same machinery could not be applied to them, inasmuch as they could not be so easily ascertained. Mr. GISBO RN E begged to explain the circumstance to which the lion. and Learned Member for Great Yarmouth ( Ms. Praed) had alluded. A petition had been put into his hands from the borough of Great Yarmouth, which he was de sirous of presenting, and accompanying with some observa zio,,s ; and, as A matter of courtesy, he wrote a note to the Mernb , 2r, his intention to present the petition that day, if lie liad at, o pportunity of doing , o, and adding that his mo.s stood in the Speaker's list, and that he was desirous. on presenting the petition, to make some statement relative to certain payments alleged to have been made at the last two elections to the burgesses and freemen of the borough cf Great Yarmouth. He was prevented from presenting that petition by the time at which he rose, and he then stated to the Hon. Gentleman that he would make his statement as a reply when he had risen to, bring forward the motion of which he had given notice for that night, but which he had since handed over to another Hon. Member. Mr. PRAED had not intended to use the word "threat" with any want of courtesy. He had not brought forward the motion to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted, because he did not wish that Hon. Gentleman to reply upon him, and because he certainly should be very sorry to have to reply to the lion. Gentleman. Mr. ARTHUR TREVOR said a few words, which were wholly inaudible in the confusion which prevailed amidst the loud cries of " Divide," which drowned every other sound. Mr. O'CONNELL hoped he might almost express his be lief, without the appearance of egotism, that he was a trne prophet. He had declared his conviction on the preceding night, that so much affection had been expressed for the prin ciple of the Bill as would ultimately very nearly destroy its most valuable provisions ; and he really thought his prophecy would be pretty well accomplished if the amendment were agreed to. He was really astonished at what had fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, and from the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland. Be fore the passing of the Reform Bill there existed two species of franchise ; that arising from property, and that arising , from municipal rights. By the first Reform Bill the fran chise arising from municipal rights was considered so incon sistent with the principles of Reform, that it was entirely abolished. To that first Reform Bill the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet were both parties—( Loud cheering)— and yet these were most valuable rights—most solemn privi leges now ; they had heard talk of disfranchising a consi derable portion of the people of England. Why, what had been the improvement in these freemen since the intro duction of the first Reform Bill ?—what increase of knowledge had they displrYed, or what greater sense of the importance of the function vested in them had they evinced ? They had not done themselves any very great honour, certainly, before Com mittees of that House, and they had in addition the Report of the Corporation Commission, which distinctly charged them with having been guilty of the grossest and vilest corruption. —(Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had said that the ground on which the provisions of the Reform Bill were made so extensive was, that it should not be necessary to in crease or extend those provisions at a future period. When was this declaration made to which the Right Hon. Baronet adverted ? When, but at the time of his opening speech on the first Reform Bill—when, but at the very time when these rights were absolutely annihilated ?—( Cheers. ) Lord STANLEY—It was said by Lord Grey in 1834. .( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Mr. O'CONNELL—It was said in this House in 1831, and the Minister who brought forward the Reform Bill ex pressly stated that the ballot and the shortening the duration of Parliaments were open questions. The Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, had talked in most patriotic and sympa thizing terms of the rights of the poor. Would the Noble Lord who was so anxious to preserve those rights unimpaired con sent to diminish the amount of the elective qualification from 101. to 51. ?--(Loud cheers.) If the Noble Lord would do this, he would be content to give him some credit for sincerity ; hut knowing, as he did, how convenient it was, riot to him, but to others, that freemen should be bought and sold, he could not give him any very great credit otherwise.—( Hear, hear.) But what was this franchise which it was now proposed to create, to be ? Not a municipal one—not one of property, but a nondescript franchise, which he made the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman a present of, by way of per petuating the Reform Bill.—(Cheers.) It was actually beyond the Reform Bill ; it was subverting the constitution of England, this frightful anomaly of keeping up a set of men that might he conveniently bought and sold. He insinuated no motives ; he charged no purposes. Why ? Because it was not necessary for him to do so.—( Cheers and a laugh.) They had heard of a bargain. Bargain 1 With whom ? (Cheers.) Was that bargain made with the other House— was it a bargain with the House of Peers ?—( Continued cheering.) What ought the House of Peers to have done with the representation of the people in that House? Talk to him of preserving the Constitution, and of constitutional principles ; and tell him in the same breath of a bargain made with the House of Peers I They extorted from that House their nomination boroughs, in order to give the people the right of representation ; and what were they told now ? Why, it seemed a bargain had been made with that same House of Peers, that they should retain a portion of their power through the instrumentality of those very freemen ; and the object and effect of the amendment was to give the Peers—not a direct power of nomination—but an indirect power of nomination, by means of the grossest bribery and the worst corruption. The complaint which was urged was, that the present measure was an indirect way of getting rid of these voters. The real com plaint was, that it was a great deal too direct.—(Cheers.) When he was reminded of indirection, too, let him ask, could any thing be more direct than this effort to get rid of one of the most valuable portions of the Bill ?—( Cheers, and loud cries of " No," from the Opposition.) He would repeat it. He asserted that this was an attempt to impair the efficiency of the Bill to weaken its provisions, to degrade it in the eyes of the community, to create a new franchise different from that which existed before, and to convert that which would hare been the harbinger f peace into only another and more fruit ful source of dissension. — ( Loud cheers.) The Committee then divided, when there appeared— Ayes 278 Noes Majority against the amendment --46 The result was received with loud cheering from the Minis terial benches. On our return to the gallery we found Having been re-admitted into the gallery we found Mr. A. TREVOR addressing, amid great confusion, the Committee. The Hon. Gentleman said.that, notwithstanding the discussion that had taken place, he must still call the at tention of the Committee to the clause. He - felt it his duty to take the sense of the Committee on the amendment of which he had given notice.--( Cries of " Oh, oh.") He would never see the rights of any body of men taken unjustly from them without raising his voice against it. The decision of the Committee that night could not fail to have a powerful effect throughout the country.—(lronical cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Honourable Members opposite might cheer, but their cheers would show the country who the true friends of the country were.—( Oh.) The olause was an un fair invasion of the rights of a considerable body of men, and the antiquarian researches of the Hon. and Learned Attorney- General could not prove the contrary,—( Oh, oh, from the Ministerial benches.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite would find that he was not to be deterred by their clamours from doing his duty to those who sent him to that House. lie protested against the mode adopted by Hon. Gentlemen opposite to prevent individuals from expressing their opi nions. —(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Why attack the rights of the freemen by a sidewind : why not at once bring in a Bill beginning with " Whereas divers corrupt practices, &c., were proved against those freemen ?" Why not bring in a direct measure of that sort, and say that they should have no franchise at all ? He had yesterday presented a petition signed in the space of two hours by 256 of his constituency, all of whom deprecated this invasion of their rights.—( Ques tion.) If the present clause passed there would be an end to all security for property; there would be an end to justice and the Constitution—to judges, juries, and executioners.— ( Oh, oh.) If the clause passed it would be as great an act of spoliation and robbery as if the House took from the Noble owners of Woburn Abbey their tithes.--( Ob. ) So far from the interruption proceeding from the opposite side of the House precluding him from going on it would have a contrary effect, and rather make him persevere.—( Cheers and Oh, oh, divide.) The clause was most unjust and nefarious, and if it were allowed to stand part of the Bill it would be positively disgraceful to the senate that allowed it to pass.—( Oh, ob.) If they peimitted it to pass, instead of being the guardians of the property of the public they would be the plunderers of it. —(Hear.) Though he should stand alone he would take the sense of the Committee on the clause, since in so doing he was pleading the cause of justice and of reason, and discharg ing his duty towards his constituency. The Hon. Member concluded by moving that the clause be omitted. Mr. H. HUGHES said that he would be unworthy of his station in that House if he did not protest against the clause, which went to deprive the freemen and their posterity of their undoubted right. • Mr. FE CTOR here rose and moved that the Chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit again. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Committee had discussed the clause for a very considerable time, and a division in a very full House had been come to upon it. He could not see the necessity of any more discussion upon it, and the only ques tion now was that the clause do stand part of the Bill. He therefore felt it his duty to press the Committee to a division, if necessary, upon that question, and would do so that night if the Hon. Member persisted in his motion. Mr. MACLEAN said a few words in vindication of the general character of freemen. Mr. PR AED suggested to the Hon. Member for Durham (Mr. A. Trevor) the propriety of at present postponing his motion, since he would have a better opportunity of pressing it on the bringing up of the Report. After a few words from Mr. ROBINSON and Colonel Sin- THORP, Mr. A. TREVOR was extremely reluctant to withdraw his amendment, and he only did so because he could take the sense of the House on the clause on the bringing up of the Report. In withdrawing his amendment, he would take the liberty of giving notice that on the bringing up of the Report, he should move as an amendment that this clause be expunged. The amendment was then withdrawn, and Mr. Faczoa withdrew his motion. The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill. The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. ISLE OF MAN CORN BILL. This Bill went through the Committee. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of Ecclesiastical Courts. Colonel SIBTHORP said that the Bill was nothing more nor less than a Doctors' Commons job, and it would be ex tremely oppressive to country practitioners. It was brought in in an underhand way by two Attorneya-General ; it was warmed and hatched by one, and brought to light by another. It was a lawyer's job, and their principle always was, " scratch me, and I'll scratch you."—( A laugh.) He protested against such a Bill being brought in at that late hour of the night. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the measure bad been recommended by the Archdeacon of Middlesex, and by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who was Attorney-General when the Gallant Colonel's polio- al associates were in office. He, therefore, hoped that kayo would be given to bring in the Bill. Sir R. INGLIS made an observation which was not under stood in the gallery. Mr. SCARLETT hoped that proper time would be al lowed to consider and discuss the provisions of the Bill. Mr. SHE IL expressed a wish that a Bill of a similar nature should be granted to Ireland. Leave was then granted to bring in the Bill. Mr. WAKLEY moved that the ballot for entering the names of Members having public petitions to resent, do take place half an hour before the time appointed . t Mr. Speaker taking the chair. After a brief conversation the motion was ag ed to. The other Orders of the Day having been d... tosed of, the House adjourned at One SHIPPING INTELLIGE) CE. ADVICES, ARRIVALS, AND DEPAR (HIES AT THE SCOTCH WHARFS.—Jut 22. HORS'S DUNDEE AND PERTH STEAM WHARF -Advice: the Dundee, Perth, and London Shipping Compa , s steam-ship Perth, John Spink commander, arrived at Dw .43 last Friday morning, the totli, at ten O'clock. DOWNS'S WHARF.—No advices or arrive Departure the Portsoy, Alex. Leask master, for Ports( MILL2R'S WHARF.—Advice : the Aberd and London Shipping Company's steam-ship City of berdeen, Alex. Morison commander, arrived at Aberdeen five o'clock last Friday morning, after a passage of forty-nine hours, the latter part of which she encountered a heavy sea, with a strong breeze of wind from the North. Arrival : the Aberdeen and London Shipping Company's smack Superior, John Donald master, from Aberdeen, with a general cargo. No de partures. LEITH AND BERWICK WHARF.—Advices : the London ana,,, Leith Old shipping Company's smack Lord Wellifigo n ' James Nicholson master, sailed from Leith on the 19th in t „s t ' ; and the Berwick Shipping Company's smack Ann, W iL " A ,. .- a in Stevenson master, arrived at Berwick on the 18th inst. "'- rival : the Berwick Shipping Company's smack Commer ce ' William Crow master, from Berwick, with a,general care" - she sailed on the 19th inst. No departures. VESSELS ENTERED INWARDS AT THE CUSTOM HOUSE, JUNE 22. London Merchant, Movvll, from Rotterdam ; Highflyer, Neff ton, Lisbon ; Minerva, Grace, Lisbon ; Swift, Hopper, Lisbon; William, Wilkie, Guernsey ; Prince Coburg', Howell, Guernsey; Sovereign, Turney, Guernsey; Rosaline, Healas• Guernsey ; Sarnia, Dale, Guernsey and Jersey; Friends, Hill, Guernsey; Rapid, Duke, Guernsey; Alert, Helyer, GuernseY; Genie, Robarts, Guernsey; Constance, Brettevillois, Cher bourg ; Bien Venu, Moryson, Ostend ; Lykens Prove, Ae s9l Gothenburg ; Det Gode Hab, Fesker, Aalborg ; Equity, . 1 " .. dan, Aalborg ; Happy Return, Potter, Jersey and GuernseY ; Hoffnung, Schohbohm, Newstadt ; Vrow Dieuwke, Boyer kamp, Workum ; Roseland, Dunston, Lisbon • Vi er Gebroe ders, Fokkema, Workum ; Shannon, Brooks, Zante ; Jamaie e * Johnson, Antigua; George and Mary, Rogers, Oporto; Re hello Primeiro, Baptiste, Oporto ; Haytia, Warman, Halif o; William Metcalf, Philipson, Sydney ; Adelaide, Clark, Syd ney ; Stranger, Miller, Para ; Enchantress, WoodthorPe• Catania and Palermo ; James, Guthrie, Rio Munez ; Robe rts, Wake, Canton ; Jean, Dare, Demerara ; .Ann and Elizabeth, Tatman, Boulogne. ENTERED OUTWARDS FOR LOADING, Jura; 2 2 . The Grant, Sayer, for St. Vincent ; Charles, Simpson , Oporto; Triumph, Green, Madeira and Bombay; Bros bourneburv, Chapman, Cape and Calcutta ; President, Nuocke , Stettin ; Emma, May, Ostend ; Alkman, Heath, Rotterdam Romona, Stranack, Rotterdam ; William Joliffe, Downie , Hamburg. EARED OUTWARDS WITH CARGO, JUNE 22. The Chase, Ritchie, fur Elsinore and Petersburg ; Livec pool, Goodridge, Guernsey and Jersey ; Nonpareil, Williams , Hudson's Bay ; Challenger, Alexander, Constantinople ; Englishman, Sharp, Quebec; Grant, Sayer, St. Vincent. CLEARED OUTWARDS IN BALLAST, JuNa 22. The Twee Gebroeders, Bees, for Workum ; Minerva, Gronner, Baltic ; Felix, Pust, Baltic ; Maria, Kroning, Bal tic ; Regende Jacob, Wiliken, Memel ; Hope, CouienSt Harlingen. _____..... BIRTHS. On the 20th inst., at Brighton, the lady of Chas. Morgan, Esq. , M.P., of a daughter. On the Bth inst., at Rockvale-house, near Mallow, in the c ounty of Cork, the lady of Samuel George Beamish, Esq., of a son. On the 19th inst., at Leighton-hall, Montgomeryshire, the lady of R. M. Bonner Maurice, Esq., of a daughter. On the 19th inst., at Woodlands, Isle of Wight, the lady of Charles Cooch, Esq., of a daughter. On the 20th inst., at Wimbledon, the lady of Gore Currie, Estl. , of a son. _ On the 21st inst., Mrs. Henry Willoughby, of Bedford-square' of a son. On the 19th inst., at Woolwich, the lady of Lieut. E. F. Grant, Royal Horse Artillery, of a daughter. On the 22d inst., in Wilton-crescent, the lady of George Drum' mond, Esq., of a son. MARRIED. On the 18th inst., at Walcot Church, Bath, Captain George Boyd, 2d Grenadier Regiment, Native Infantry, Bombay Esta" blishment, to Amelia Lamont, second daughter of the late William Robertson, Esq., of Demerara and Essequibo. On the 23d inst., at St. Andrew's Church, Sir George Young, Bart., R.N., of Formosa-place, Berkshire, to Susan, only surviving daughter of the late Mr. Sergeant Praed. On the 20th inst., at Rye, Sussex, Mr. J. H. Linton, of Nor wood, Surrey, to Sarah, third daughter of the late Mr. John Chap man, of Lewes, Sussex. On the 23d inst., at Christ Church, Marylebone, the Rev. Ar nold White, to Sarah Cordelia Crow, relict of William Crow, Eel• , of Broomscroft, Wateringbury, Kent. DIED. On the 22d inst., at Hastings, Harriet, wife of the Rev. Thomas Madge, of Essex-street Chapel. On the 21st inst., at Camberwell, in her 23d year, Jane, eldest daughter of Mr. John Smart, late of Red Lion-square. On the 22d inst., at Tottenham, John C ru t c hl ey , E sq ., in his 73d year. On the 23d inst., aged 8 months, Clara Ilust Arden, the infant child of Richard Edward Arden, Esq., of Red Lion-square. On the 23d inst., at the house of her son-in-law, Mr. Baron , Alderson, Caroline, widow o f th e l a t e R ev . Ed war d D re we, 0 ' Broadhembury, Devonshire. On the 20th inst., at Islington, Frederick James Post, aged 16. On the 21st inst., at Boreham, Essex, Mr. Butterfield, in hi s 91st year. London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of No -112, Strand, at The Sun ')1 e, No. 112, Strand, in the oust/ of Middlesex. Posi 'PRE go+ tons stet tairement; built 1826; is copper gine of forty hoi secommodationi nished, and - her No w lying off tl For itwentori WM. W( (U PrHE fin register best teak ; is a With figure-hea ter-galleries, al per-nailed, and with the same Well found in Cl eular attention East and West 111 , Donald, Cot Dock, south sic For inventor Chapman and 4 W3l r At Lloyd's THE g` per ref eoppered ; has Cargo at an ea North Anaerie; stairs, Rateliff. For invent W3l The 'Woodman 5,1 • . R. INI squat Priotor to SEI July 2, at TtN( sidence ; Ole( Yard: the wh fully situate in extensive and and held on le Maybe viev the premises ; Booth-street, shire Stingo, commons ; at Falcon-square FREE PUB I 11 1/ 1 R. IV respe prietor, in con affliction, to S. July 2, at RESIDENC Margaret-st re thirteen butts Month ; toget as a Brewery, Whole held on May be vier the Premises Stingo, Padd Castle- street, SALE 0] T" ING UNITED K do hereby Or at Ten o'cloc PITT UP ford, several and eonsistir. Str a p s , Bolts Boilers, Stov Persons wi perintendent Catalogues Yard. E THE That a GI at their llou July next, at taking into ei Laws, laid b ,tad repeal su The said I az* _now_ prin at this' HOUS4 B 0 Y n At: SOUTH M Notice is .1 the Cominii COUNTRY priority of ch log Settlers I to the Colon' The Gove Will depart a or as 100t1113 Cmpies of the Emigrat 61 , Lincoln' are requeste Will be ham *ion. LINE THE CE horse poser London, on Applicati at London, 83, Regent• From La Front F% Pour-wh Two-whi Home... No ( THE f I'l RE G PACAE 7 Passen, qpini by th ese , 11 luivanta l v 3 and oth( tr powerful flee, leave ROT T I and edneada) The well CHANT a LONDOI AN'TW Sunday an Sunday an able route cheapest. .;.32 hours. aand a mos to Cologn OSTE Bertha rn e ll's, 61 th e Sprea th e 4Comi l For arc tories , r i 'he ( 1, t eg utarly 1 41.1 (- 1 . groin ?nera beta men 5 7 11 ad 3: lin er 1 , she of tr •opie2 ton, :hes, abn mod, o flu he line h tabl 7 ,4 - - tle& r,itt grope, rtie the Q tm Ea sen a'• t fair tr • ,Ter kn • :ceptin, ya r iidia is es of al nergy c et •amps, Ivy pocho del )ility, via • seqta 1 to Titis 4 Cheroiet ;„ - b_p him 4 0xfori- Countr3 Agents.