The Sun. — London, England, 1848-05-06 00:00:00

Government, therefore, thought themselves at liberty to I depart likewise from those bases, and the Noble VIA.. • count found himself outwitted, a circumstance at which be expressed feelings of no slight resentment and mortification. He was not about to pronounce any opinion on that transaction, by which the happiness of the Queen of Spain was sacrificed to the interests of a dynasty. He thought it useless and ungenerous to ad vert to it now, when that dynasty, by a species of retri butive justice, was driven from a throne in which he, in common with all Europe, thought it firmly fixed. lie would, however, take the opportunity of adverting to a tumour which he hoped wan unfounded, that when the Infanta of Spain, the Duchess de Montpensier, arrived here from the country of her adoption, for the purple of returning to her natural home—her native country, that opportunity was seized by her Majesty's Govern ment of showing their resentment to that marriage, and objection was snade to the direct passage of the Infanta, in her peculiar situation, from this country to Spain.— (Hear, hear.) He hoped there was no truth in that rumour. Whatever objections might originally have been entertained to that marriage, circumstances had removed these objections, and on grounds of po licy and prudence he should never cease to think that if indeed any objection did exist, it was an opportunity lost of pursuing a course at once generous and just. However, from the moment of that marriage, although Narvaez was not at that moment Minister of Spain, and even antecedent to that period, there existed the greatest jealousy between the Governments of England and Spain. Truly or falsely, Narvaea and the Spanish Go vernment were supposed to be under the influence and control of France, and the proceedings of the Moderado party were all connected with French influence in the mind of the Foreign-office here, while on the other band, truly or falsely, it was believed by the existing Govern ment of Spain, that the Government here and the repre rentative in Madrid were mixed up and politically con nected with the opponents of the Government, the Pro gressista party, and that they were desirous of over throwing the Spanish Ministry. Be that belief well founded or not, it no doubt existed, and therefore of all persons to give advice with reference to the internal policy of Spain, the Noble Viscount was obviously the last man who should have offered such advice, or could have offered it with the possibility of its being followed. But even bad he been fitted to tender his advice, the Noble Viscount could scarcely have been more unfortunate in his choice of a medium through which to offer it than he was in selecting Mr. Bulwer.—(Hear, hear.) Even if the go vernments of the two countries had been upon the most friendly terms, such a letter could not fail to offend the susceptibilities of the Government and people of Spain. What right had we to dictate as to the forms of govern ment which should be established in Spain. If friendly advice was tendered it should be on the ground of advan tage to the country, and not on the ground of any per sonal danger that might attend the adoptien of a contrary course. But the moment chosen for giving this advice was most inoppOrtune. There was no necessity for offer in a; such advice. At that moment the Queen of Spain and her government were acting in strict accordance with the constitution. That letter was dated the 16th April, and on the 24th of March, stimulated, no doubt, by the successful example of Paris, there was an attempt at in surrection in Madrid, but it was put down, and the danger alluded to by the Noble Viscount had broken out and been subdued. But notwithstanding the altered circum stances of the case, and after the danger which was ad vised to be guarded against had passed away, theßritish Minister took upon himself to express his opinion as to the time when the Cortes should be assembled, and the course to be adopted by the Spanish Govsrnment. What would be the indignation or this country if any foreign government were to take upon itself to inter:ere with e rre our internal concerns or choose th at manner ? Had not ynney• ry country the right to its o w n f o r m o , Was opt that the priociple kt4own and re-cognised in this ceuntre P— (Hear hear.) Supposing similar advice had beers tendered to the King of the French, that he should have dismissed M. Guiz it and called another minister to lcoa councils? If such advice had been i ffered it was plsin where we should hare Aiund ourselves shortly after. The pride and dignity of Spain wire offended. `111,! motives urged by Mr. Bulwer in :he commur ication he forwarded were most objecti ona bl e, namely, that: the Queen of Spain was indebted to the assistance of England for the throne of Spain. It was impolitic, ungenerous, and ill advised to urge such arguments even if they were true. The assistance rendered to Queen Isabella was in aid of a suffering people. He hoped that that offensive communication, made more offensive still by the circum stances under which it was offered, was capable of a satisfactory explanation.—(Hear, hear.) It had been addressed to, perhaps, the proudest and the haughtiest Minister that Spain ever saw. The step was most in. judicious, and likely to prove anything but beneficial to the interests of this country. That dispatch bad pro duced the severest rebuff ever received by any British Minister conducting the foreign affairs of this country. The dispatch was returned unopened, as unworthy of the sender. He knew not what it was the Government intended. He did not believe that the dispatch was ever communicated to any other member of the Government of this country. He did the Government that justice. They had no personal responsibility in this matter. The coincidence attending this communication was also most unfortunate. Her Majesty the Queen of Spain had just conferren a high civil honour on Mr. Bulwer. He be lieved that the interference was unwarrantable. He concluded by moving for the production of copies of correspondence between her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Government of Spain, .dated ...March- 16, 1848, and April 10, 1848; and all subsequent correspondence, The LORD CHANCELLOR having put the question, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose and said—My Lords, I do not mean to follow the Noble Lord through the great variety of topics which he has connected with his motion—l shall confine myself to the subject of the motion exclusively, and shall not enter into any of the details connected with those topics into which I do not consider it necessary to enter at the present moment, inasmuch as I am prepared to lay upon your Lordships' table that very correspondence which has just formed the subject of the Noble Lord's speech.—(Hear, hear.) I shall, therefore—without meaning any disrespect to the Noble Lord or to your Lordships' House—abstain altogether frcm any observations upon the speech of the Noble Lord, contenting my self by re!erring your Lord ships at once to those papers which I am about to lay upon the table, and which will be immediately placed in your Lordships' hands, because I think that these papers will speak fur themselves, and will give the most perfect elucidation of all the Acts to which the Noble Lord had alluded. I feel, however, my Lords, that. I ought not to allow even this evening to pass by without making some observations in respect to what has just fallen from the Noble Lord, and some endeavour to put yOUT Lordships in possession of a correct statement of facts.—(:fear, hear.) First, then, as reglrdi the state of fact% to 4 tley exist, and as the papers fshall now Ia; befi,re you will prove to e xist. My L ,rdi, it is quite trap that a couirounication was made to our repre.enta live in Spain at the particular pe,iod, the date of which the Noble Lord has eorrketly Atated, from my N‘.ble Fri,nd at the heed of the Deptrtment tor Foreign .Aff4l-3 in this ci,untry. It is true this communication was made to Mr. Bahver, the British Minister at ...), ain, having reference to what appeared to be the internal state of that country. But here, in this very House, the Neble Lord, in seeking to giye effect to his statement, has wish great emphas i s stated that this was a d ct, b o , tninunic.stio n w hi c h my N o bl e F r i en d ha d orders be made directly to t h e S pan i s h G overnment. My Lurd4, my answer to this statement is a simple denial. —W This t ear.) T • communicati on was not ordered to be made at once to the Spanish Government. It was a communication made by the head of the depart ment for Foreign Affoir s to tle representative of Great Britain in Spain, instructin g him as to the language which he was to hinoldhiwaitohwr:szct to the internal affairs of that country uuicatio ns with the Spinish Government. Bat how does Noble Friend direct him to hold these communications eIY Lord may be in ignorance, and very naturally, ? The Noble u OI I , Y, no doubt, is in ignorance, on this subject, because reading t o e bably been led to make this statement upon as most pr -version he has seen given of this affairin newspapers. These instructions have undoubtedly public newspapers. published ; but I know now how, nor from whenc k e, nor by what authority, they had appeared in a French w paper.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, had, how n e e v e s ; no other means of obtaining ;the inf ormat i on ' upon which he has made his statement. N o the French newspaper has certainly given these instructions very nearly verbatim, with the exception of a very few words. But it happens that these few words make, after all, the whole difference in the nature of the charge which the Noble Lord has so unjustly made.—(Hear, hear.) It is very easy, as the Noble Lord knows, by the omission or the addition of certain wen's, however few they might be, in a public dispatch, to alter the whole colouring, the essence and character of that dispatch. It is obvious, whoever the person was that had made such alteration—for I am far from be lieving that it was made by the Duke of Sotamayor, for I believe this Nobleman to be wholly incapable of such an act—but whoever was the correspondent of the French newspaper at this time, it is obvious that either he or his colleagues had intended that a certai n im pression sh ou ld be created contrary to what the ori ginal correspondence would have justified. This com munication, it was said, had been made direct to the Spanish Government. N ow , I t e ll your Lordships that sets ou when t you come to s ee it y ou w ill find that it . in the very first sentence with words di recting Mr. Butwer t to use his efforts and to convey his sentiments an opportunity the Spanish Government whenever very supposition tbr doing it; thereby entirely negativin g the be communicatede directly that it was intended to jausresed.- 119 the Noble Lord s to the Spanish Government, Friend beside me (Hear, hear.) My Noble gests to me the fact that it was in a great measure wholly confidential ; but whether it was so or not, the een th r Y e a s t si t o h n s to which I have just alluded obviously imply e communication was not intended to be mad., directly to the Spanish Govern ment. It is clear that it it • ere so intended lanns en w e r would be used. of a totally different character great or small, proud or every Government whether it i '' 'WiTh humble, it is the duty of the Go )e ve g meta of this country, amity with them, to While they maintained relati ons 2 i , nth%rnanner that was address them in terms of respect consistent A ith the nealatenasice of ss relations, and according as the law 01 nations and poi, one , t a- towards another.--(Hear. ZrPresenhee from my L , rds, that these instructip.n:p,wresre wintetttl! a s s a3 ;i Vr. ul I appear on looking at those inteeded, for Mr. Hula er'A own guidat , ee. ' l re, n ta .. _Arsifestly Est onee explains what the Nobl e r ..-e , rd ,„,,ins'lL to think itself requires explanation.—(Hear, h.ar.) Si, tar frtnuattltihniks eemsnunication being- inteedesi by my Noble friend to be made directly to she : , pankh Gov , rnm , nt, they ~ e instructi .na sent solely for the guidance of Mr. Bulwerr*. and evidently received as such by that gent l eman; for ' so for from his commumicisting at once with the Duk e de Sotomayor on the day after he received the dispatch from me Noble Friend, ' he chose himself the moment for addressing theiSpenisli Minister upon the subject. I can not, however, go so far as to say that Mr. Bulwer was instructed to use the language and the expressions which he had used on the occasion. —(Hear.) The Noble Lord will, no doubt, ask why were the expressions communi cated in the precise form of words? Now, on that sub ject I am quite prepared, my Lords, to say—and I think lam also speaking the feel i ng of this country generally —I much lament that Mr. Bulwer had thought it right in the exercise of his judgment to express himself in the manner in which he had done to the Spanish Minister; and I am tar from thinking that he had exercised a sound discretion in the language he had made use of in his communication. lam not, how ever, disposed to judge with great rigour such au act when called upon to weigh the conduct of a most able and meritorious public servant, who was acquainted with the affairs of the country in which he discharged the high and important duties of our representative for a period of four years. I say, my Lords, that under such circum stances I have no wis h . arbitrarily to condemn any such step as that taken by Mr. Bulwer. The expressions used by Mr. Bulwer, though perhaps manifesting a want of judgment at the moment, should not be viewed as the result of any instructions which he had received from my Noble Friend. I, therefore, think that the observations which have been made by the Noble Lord on this part of the case fall to the ground. I now come to another part of the Noble Lord's statement, wherein he charges my Noble Friend with an improper interference with the affairs of Spain, and in respect to this part of the case I beg to call your Lordships' attention to what the nature of that interference was. This interference was nothing more than the expression of general sympathy with the condition of Spain, and an advice to the Spanish Government.—(Hear, hear.) That advice had not been given until it had been repeatedly asked for. We were in the habit of giving advice, and the Spanish Govern ment bad frequently asked for it. Spain wast‘th er . e - fore, undoubtedly in a situation to receive a n y advice i l th a her with the friendly spirit, which which was tendere d to the view to the pacification of the count r y , and lea di ng, as we thought, to the most effectual mean Was this advice given her sta f bility and prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) given in the spirit of hostility to the p S anish Govern merit ? No—it was obviously give n for the p ur p ose of explaining the view entertained in respect to certain transactions by the Government of this country, in order that the Government of Spain might not be taken by surprise hereafter. That a dvice and o p inion so framed, sa id to have created gr ea t though it has been _ of a good understanding betwee n countries,alpain herself had again and aga i n the difficulties two stated to be indispen-able to her internal peace and pros perity.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, Ido conceive th a t the Spanish Government would have had some reason to co m a fter asking fbr our assistan ce — a f ter re questing information if, in respect to the qua d rup l e treaty p 1 i as they had done—we refused or neglected to put them in possession of the sentiments of this country. The Noble Lord no doubt remembers well the terms of that AI wasNL E n Y e t— inl p w a a r s lia a me p n arty t e t t t h o e t t i h m e e thetrip a g rt i u e t t r eaty, for he was himself a party t o it. tre L a o ty r , d b S u T t e en t ar q w e i i t s h of the LA S N pa S e D is o h W G N ov E e — re O m u e r et s w o druple treaty was effected. • ter i fe h r acsaimiedereinly connected with our anxiety to uphold a constitutional Government. When the Noble Lord makes a compari son between the two countries, and se) 5, what would be thought here if her Majesty was advised by the Spa nish Minister to change her Government, or to take c e r tain sups a hich were declared by him to be neces ary for the peace of the country?"—the Noble Lord should recollect that th. re was no such parallel in the case; fur, as regards Spain, we were in the situation of havi n g nut ugly b. en invited, but actually called upon to air. our advice, and it was to that advice that Spain was mainly indebted for the establishment of u free govern. ment —(Hear.) I again say that there is nothing in these instructions showing any thing like a spirit ut direct in terference, or indicating any hostile intentions. On the contrary, it is obvious that the advice there tendered proceeded from an intimate and eincere conviction that the course suggested would be the best fz,r Spain herself to pursue; an advice, however, as appears by the papers, which Spain was at perfect liberty to adopt or reject. There are some points in respect to which I think the Noble Lord might have spared his observations, as they were not directly connected with the subject immedi ately before us. There is, however, one point for re ferring to which I ought to feel indebted to the Noble Lord, inasmuch as it affords me the opportunity of giving to the statement connected with it a distinct denial —I mean the supposition which the Noble Lord scarcely permitted himself to indulge in, that Mr. Bulwer had, previous to his communicating the note in question to the Spanish Government, caused that note, or the sub stance of it, to be printed in a Spanish newspaper. Now, the only fact that can be alleged in support of this supposition is this:—There was a paragraph in the paper in question, intimating to the Spanish Govern ment that the British Government had expressed cer tain opinions in respect to the state of that country. At the time this paragraph appeared the note in ques tion .had not been determined on nor written ; and I am distinctly authorised by a statement of Mr. Bulwer himself to declare that at the time there was no inten tion of writing that note; and that the assertion of the paper was merely one of those assumptions which, whether they be right or wrong, newspapers of all countries occasionally indulge in. —(Hear, hear.) There was no foundation at the time for this statement, which by mere accident anticipated in some respect what actually occurred. There is no doubt if Mr. Bulwer had . acted in the way imputed to him he would have been guilty of the grossest of all improprieties, not so much as regarded the person for whom the note was intended, but in reference to the country which he represented. In justice, then, to Mr. Bulwer, I can assure your Lord ships that he had made no such communication, and I be lieve by this time the Duke de Sotomayor himself is fully convinced of the falsehood of this statement, inas much as I understand Mr. Bulwer bas recently re ceived a letter from him, at-quitting him of any such misconduct. A rumour has, however, undoubetly ex isted, which has reached the ears of the Noble Lord, and has been circulated by the press of this country, as well as elsewhere, giving currency to this charge. In the same way was it a short time ago confidently asserted that two members of an illustrious family, though entitled to more consideration from their misfortunes, had been obliged to leave this country suddenly on account of the expressed wish of the Sovereign of this country, under the a :vice of my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Now I desire to take this oppor tunity of saying, that no such disrespect was ever in tended or expressed—no such disrespect was ever shown. My Noble Friend bad no opportunity, if he were even inclined, to give her Majesty any such advice. Her Majesty, in the exerci-e of her charac teristic generosity of feeling which beiongs to her at all times, of which so many persons illustrious by their position and character have been induced to par take, had manifested to these two illustrious individuals nothing but sentiments of generous feelingand tyoapitali y. —(hear, hear.) It did so happen that the Duke and 1)u hes s d r, who had previously been re siding with her Majesty, and had experienced her kind attentions, did omit a compliat.ce with the etiqu, rte usual on such occasions. and. without any previous no ice to her Majesty of their intention, took their departure from this country. Under the circumstances of their approaching departure or stay it was natural that upon such an occasion, and on such an interview, she should be accompanied or attended by his Royal Highness Prince Albert, or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, or both, and to my knowledge the Secretary of State was at his own house ready to repair immediately to the palace. Lord STANLEY here interrupted the Noble Mar quis, for the purpose of observing, that in no part of his observations had he adverted in any way to the subject to which the Noble Lord was now reterring. He had alluded to a rumour that objections had bean taken to the Duke and Duchess of Montpensier going directly from this country to Spain, but he had in no way ad• verted to the circumstance the Noble Lord was now re ferringto. The — Marquis of LANSDOWNE was glad to hear the Noble Lord's statement; but the Noble Lord must be aware that the report in question had been very indus triously circulated, and he (Lord Lansdowne) had thought it only right and proper to take the earliest opportunity that a pp eare d to o ff er o f most di st i nct l y and emphatically d ec l ar i ng t h at no disrespect had been intended, and that no disrespect had been shown. With regard to the last allegation referred to by the Nannoedb l D e via L oau o hl r de d s , a n th o a fw t objections believ e dMonpensier going at once to Spain, he that rumour rested on a like authority. e other matter • advert, for one moment only, to a in;nduce ' speech. The Noble L 3 into the Noble Lord's interference pervaded Lord had said that a principle of (Lord Lansdowne the policy of the Government. He but at the same f el t that this was an • ti me h e must unjust charge, where the preservation of th express his opinion that, concerned, it was the dut e peace of the world was from the responsibilities of iynteortf.erenee England not to s h r i n k was sure, that his N o bl e F riend ; and of this he affairs had often been the means or d the head of f ore i gn an end to those disputes, differences a el ;ging and Putting pervaded parts of Europe. lie i, h n wars whi c h now mg t refer to of those Italian sovereigns to whom t h e Noble every One Lord had referred, and who would bear willing testimony to the value of the advice his Noble Friend had given on fre- quent occasions, and to its importance in preveuting out. breaks and disturbances bAween nations having a d verse and conflicting interests. The mediation of England had been frequently offered, and was frequently sought for, end he trusted as long as England maintained her posi tion among nations her influence would be exerted for the promotion of those great principles which she had laid down as her sy stem of policy and action. Beyond the limits of legitimate interference he hoped and be- lieved she woula never go. Lord BROUGHAM rejoiced this motion had been brought forward, became it bad given her Majesty's Government an opportunity of explaining what the facts were. The omission of the wort!s which opened the dispatch gave a perfectly different aspect to the whole affAir, and entirel; concludsti the question, as fur as her Majesty's Government were concerned, and only left thein to regret that Mr. Bulwer had, with singular indis c.j,etion, laid the dispatch bodily before the Duke de ve loranyor, instevd of tekiog an opportunity of con owr_Vne; eatody with lion on the sulject. For his tein i_p teur % l l:t :. , : h a e k, s m ilw tono objecth,n to giving Mealy advice, S 'J ul _ a s Y tultninis , er,d, to a Gore:lament situated as " 1 i but there were times and seasons for all Paptiougs ; and th e words, "if an opp.rtuoity offer." Here Eveii r, i 2; ~, ,, , , t ,t, 4r,e,ricirP:atilea7pii:oy,..f)uul Or sheet i ve k a .,,_ (L,,outg. whitek."—(Laughter.) r . inanby to slt-rili4: evef.t,, 1•, ' ll, 3 :Vested to the Mariluis of Nor sieeeHn'r"" had, before the late urito%ard ceedingt, he rt. ,—o r d k r. nzik' GoVtrnment - ini their pro applauded hira, end - °ur,ham) should have greatly should have cougidered him the friend of peace, of freedom, and above all the friend of France. And if this tniat be done with France how much more reason must there be for giving such advice as respected Spain, a nation with which our relations were so different. With all respect for his friends in the Provisional Government in Paris, he must say he thought that they were highly culpable for permitting the publication of a falsified document. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—It appeared in an opposition paper. Lord BROUGHAM—OhI then that entirely exone rated the Provisional Government. The Noble Lord went on to complain that dispatches appeared in the newspapers before they reached the Gov ernmen t to which they were directed. If their Lordships compared the London newspapers of July, 1846, th e y wou ld fi n d that a most important and confidential communication, on a subject of the most delicate nature, app eare d i n them before they reached the Spanish Government. The dispatch to which he alluded bad never been published in Madrid; and it was clear, therefore, that it was sent from Madrid to London. He thought that such a proceed ing was most improper. With respect to the honour which had been conferred on Mr. Bulwer, he would say nothing because he was aware that it was intended to bestow it before the recent transactions in Sp a i n had occurred. However, if he bad to advise his Noble Friend at the head of Foreign Affairs, he would recom mend to him to separate by a few months the confer ring of that distinction and the commission of one of the greatest diplomatic blunders that ever occurred. He begged also to state that he entirely disapproved of the introduction of such distinctions into the social system of this country. While Spaniards, Frenchmen, Ger mans. and Italians of the l eas t di st i nct i on were desirous of appearing in public with some ribbon or ether deco ration, the absence of such paltry honours was the dis tinction of Englishmen. Lie doubted whether the Pro visional Government would find it as eas y t o p u t d own the desire for such distinctions as they had found it to putdorn themonarchy and the aristocracy. He believed that titles of nobility were, as much in use in France as ever, notwith s t an di ng t h e e ff orts to abolish them. In ajourney of 600 miles, from the Var to the Seine, one of the only two carriages he met with was occupied by General Thiard, the Ambassador of the French Republic to Switzerland, but although the tricolor was waving from the coach window, he was called Count at every station and inn on the road.—(Laughter.) Lord STANLEY withdrew his motion, and The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then laid on the table the papers which had been referred to. JEWS BILL. The discussion on the second reading of this Bill was fixed for Monday, the 22d. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 5. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. THIRD READINGS. _ The following Bills were retLitiTchild time and passed:— Birkenhead Duck Company Bill. East Indian Railway Company Incorporation Bill. Leislaments Estate (Govan Glebe Fening) Bill. Penzance Waterworks Bill. QUEENSFERRY PASSAGE BILL. On the motion for the further consideration of the report upon this Bill, Mr. BERNAL called the .attention of the House to the fact that a manuscript clause, giving most extensive powers, had been inserted in the Bill iii Committee, contrary to the standing orders of the House,eet upon which alt vessels woul coming dhave amionstto theunj bouhstarandur.oppressive e Mr. R. YORKE said tbut, as one of the members of :he Committee, he was nut aware that he was acting contrary to the usual course by allowing the insertion of the clew°. After a few words from the Lord Advocate, Sir W. Heathiote, and Mr. Gibson Craig, the motion was with drawn, and the turther consideration of the report ordered fur Tuesday next. The reports upon the National Monument of Scotland Amendment BM, and the Lambeth Waterworks Bill, were further considered and agreed to. Mr. M LINTZ presented a petition from a Mr. Thomas Adams, tot fuerly a member of the House, in which he stathl that the French Revolutions of 1830 and 1848. were caused almost entirely by the pressure of great distress upon the inhabitants, which dis tress was mainly attributable to the bad and faulty state of the monetary laws, and that Charles X. and Louis Philippe, instead of exa mining into the distress of the people, pursued a despotic and tyrannous policy. He, therefore, warned the House of their danger, and prayed for the adoption of some measures more consistent with the rights and interests of the people than had been adopted for the last thirty years. Petitions were also presented by Mr. WILLIAMS, from the Mayor and Corporotion of the Borough of Macclesfield, against the Health of Towns Bill ; Mr. RUFFORD from Worcester to a similar effect; Sir R. INGLIS from the churchwardens of St. Mary's, Battersea, in favour of some comprehensive measure on the subject of health of towns ; Sir W. HEATHCOTE, from the Mayor and Cor poration of the borough of Basingstoke against that portion of the Public Health Bill establishing a central board of officers for:carrying out the provisionsof the Bill; Mr. FERGUS, from Fife, praying for the repeal of the Game-laws, and for the adoption of some measure to enable Scottish congregations to obtain sites for building churches; Sir E. FILMER, from the Mayor and Corporation of Gravesend against the Public Health Bill; Mr. Alderman SIDNEY, from Stafford, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. Mr. HILDYARD, from Whitehaven, praying the House to restrain or prohibit the sale of intoxicating liquors upon Sundays, and also a petition in favour of the abolition of solicitors' certificate duty; Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD, in favour of the principles embodied in the People's Charter; Sir H. HALFOIM, from seven societies of Oad r ,, 1- . lows, praying that the same protection might be afforded to them as to other benefit societies. Mr. Alderman SIDNEY presented a petition from Rothe, hithe in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. Mr. W. MILES presented a petition from a place in Somersetshire against the Diplomatic Relations with Rome Bill. Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Marsdon, in Yorkshire, nainst the sale of spirits on Sunday. Mr. HUME presented a petition from Forfar against the Law of Eetail (Scotland) Bill. Mr. MACKINNON presented petitions from White chapel, St. Pancras, and Hoxton in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES. I Mr. F. O'CONNOR gave notice of his intentien, on Monday the 15th instant, to move the second reading of the Friendly Societies' Bill. AMERICAN POSTAGE. Mr. HUME gave notice of his intention, on Tuesday next, to move for copies of the correspondence between this country and the United States, with respect to the postage arrangements. GUIANA AND TRINIDAD. On the motion of Mr HUME the following address was egret d tu:—Address for copies or extracts of dis patches from Lord Stanley, Mr. Secretary Gladstone, and Earl Grey, in 1844, and in any subs, quest years, authorising the expenditure of 166.0001. for Coolies and other expenses for Guiana and Trinidad; and also, an estimate of the further expenditure sanctioned by the Colonial-office, for similar services, as stated in Mr. Eldott's letter of the sth day of April, 1848, to C. E. Trevelyan, Esq. Mr. 11U NIE also moved fur a tabular abstract of the totals in each year of the increase and diminution which has taken place in the number of appointments, and in the amount of salaries, in all pablic offices and departments, since the passing of the Act 4 and 5, William IV. c. 24, so as to show the difference in each of these years of increase and of diminution of persons and of salaries, agreeably to the Act.—Agreed to. FREE TRADE IN INDIA. Mr. RICARDO, seeing the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary for the Board of Control in his place, wished to ask him a question with reference to an Act of the Governor-General of India. The House was aware that hitherto all goods introduced in the ports of India in British bottoms stood upon more favourable footing than the commodities brought into India by foreign ships. He understood that the Governor- General of India had passed an Act placing both British and foreign ships upon the same footing, and he wished to know from the Right Honourable Baronet whether this information was correct, and if so whether he had any objection to lay the Act upon the table of the House. Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said, in answer to the ques tion of the Hon. Gentleman, he had to state that the in formation the Hon. Gentleman had received was strictly correct. The Act was passed in accordance with the instructions sent out from the Home Government, and he could have no objection to lay it upon the table of the House. He would take that opportunity of stating that the Governor General had done away with the coast duties, and the reason for his doing so was this:— The duties by land had previously been abolished, andit was therefore thought expedient not to continue the Act of 1839, which imposed duties upon foreign coasting vessels in favour of Britibh bottoms. The Go vernor-General had now abolished all differential duties, and he would take care that the Act by which they were abolished should be laid upon the table of the House. Lord G. BENTINCK said the House would see that tinde r the Act all goods from Singapore would came into India free of duty. The House was, no doubt, aware that Singapore was a free port, and that the Act had been so framed that no exception had been made against the goods landed at Singapore, re-shipped, and then imported into India. An impression consequently prevailed, that anyany Roods port i n 1 landed at rr e S e i f u r g o a m p ore i duties.and re• shippede begged could leena leave, itroheprreefboarieo,ntoonabthketphi jebllticigmhtinHd .o b n e . o ßa b r e on n et whether , this if it be correct, whether any instructionsottocotrhrsetcotef t w h e r n n t ug o h u out rtnome oversight ff a teh n ce d t r s si e g o n u t n t n r r y , , m o i r e t awhether the it parthad arisen Governor-General of India. Sir J. C. HOBIIOUSE said the matter had not es caped his observation, and he had applied to the India Board for information on the subject. He had no doubt, however, that the exception of the port of Singapore in the Act arose from en oversight. Mr. ROBINSON wi-hed to know whether the Act could come into operation without receivin g the sanction of the Home Government. Sir J. C HOBHOUSE reminded th e H onourable inasmuch as it was p assed it I,u . t instruct sen COMMISSION t out by the India B oar d . the er t s i ll pursuance i m , pecaet of that Go , eru i t p &heady rec e iv e d t h e sanction of Sir AUGUSTUS CLIFFORD, the Übhe•r of the Block appeared at the LttOtte, and summoned the Howe to t h e I - loupe 0: Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given by Com• znibiou sever4l On the return of the SPEAKER he enumerated the Bills (n.i. which 'P.. Lords' rep.rt). POOR-LAW UNIONS —AUDI I ING ACCOUN I'S. Mr. BANKES prevented a petition numerously signed by the guardians and officers of several unions in Dorset, stating that the present system of auditing accounts in poor law unions was productive of great expense, delay. and inconvenience, and praying the House to devise a remedy. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. Mr. URQUHART presented a petition against this Bill, but particularly against those clauses which prevent public bodies from managing their own aff drs. Sir W. CLAY presented a petition against this Bill, particularly its centralization principle. Lord MORPETH presented several petitions in favour of the Bill. CEYLON. Mr. HUME gave notice that on Monday he should ask the Right Hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control whether any orders had been sent to Ceylon, like those sent to other parts of India, respecting duties on imports and on shipping. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. PARKER, the House was ordered to adjourn at its rising until Monday. INDIAN MAIL. In answer to a question put by Mr. McGnecon, Mr. WARD said that it was intended to make an alteration in the existing arra , gements, and adopt the route by Marseilles and Alexandria. ALIEN BILL. On the motion of Sir G. GREY, the House went into Committee on the Alien Bill. Upon clause 1 being proposed, Mr. HUME proposed to add the words, " and upon oath." Sir GEORGE GREY said that the adoption of such words would have the effect of embarrassing the Go vernment. Mr. HUME thought it a monstrous thing that the liberties of the people should be thus trifled with, and should most certainly persist in his motion. Lord D. STUART moved the amendment of which he bad given notice, to substitute for" information given in writing the words " from declarations laid before them in writing, under 5 and 6 William Iv., cap. 62." In moving this amendment, he begged it to be understood, that he still entertained the greatest objection to the measure, thinking it most unnecessary. Sir G. GREY could not adopt the amendment of the Noble Lord, but had no objection to consent to the amendment of the Hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Granger). Lord DUDLEY STUART, after a few words from Dr. Bowring, withdrew his amendment, and Mr. GRANGER then moved his amendment to the first clause, to insert the words " by any person sub scribing his or her name and address thereto." The amendment was agreed to, and Mr. HUME proposed to add the words, "upon oath, or by affirmation.' The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected to the addl. tion proposed by Mr. Hume, which was ultimately with drawn. Mr. GRANGER then proposed to insert the follow. ing proviso at the end of clause one:—" Provided always, and be it enacted, that if any person shall knowingly and maliciously give any such information as aforesaid, of and concerning any such alien, which shall be false in some material part thereof, every such person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall, at the discretion of the Court, be liable to be imprisoned for any time not ex. ceeding three months." Mr. HUME moved the insertion of the following words, " provided always, that a copy of every such or• der shall be immediately served on the alien or aliens se ordered to depart, and shall be accompanied by a copy of the information in writing, and the name of the in former." Sir GEORGE GREY said he did not zee any neces sity of inserting these words. Mr. HUME said there was every necessity, and in his opinion the paragraph ought to come before the amendment of Mr. Granger. This Bill as it stood was simply an encouragement of the spy system. It encouraged people to give information in secret that they dare not pdblicly disclose, and he certainly pro posed the insertion of these words to vitiate that prin ciple. Lord DUDLEY STUART supported the motion for the insertion of the words. A man might be commit ting an offence without being aware of it if this motion were not agreed to ; for if an alien had not an opportunity of seeing the Gazette, he might remain in the country and render himself liable to be thrown into prison. Was this to be tolerated in a free country ? He hoped not, and if Government would give the question their dispassionate considera tion, he was sure they would at once accede to the motion of the Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Montrose. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Noble Lord had given an exaggerated version cf this portion of the Bid. He contended that it would be all but impossible for the Government to serve the order upon the parties, as their movements would, in all cases of dangerous conspiracy, be of a private and stealthy nature. Mr. HUME thought that the Bill as it now stood gave powers as monstrous as those possessed by the old French Government under the system of lettres de cachet. Sir G. GREY said that this Bill would not in the least degree interfere with the rights and privileges given to all the people, whether foreigners or not, of this country, by virtue of the Habeas Corpus Act. Mr. HUME said that, under this Act, a person might be taken and expelled from the country in five or six hours; and where then w as t h e use o f the H a b eas Corpus Act? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that a remedy = for that evil would be found in the Bill itself, as if the party alleged any reason why he should not be sent out of the country, be would not be so sent until his case had been fully heard and decided. Muota-co. Iltnern and Ca.aaoza aa rcrally purported the amendment. Sir G. GREY said that if Hon. Members could suppl the Government with lists of the aliens whom it migi be necessary to remove, they should all be served with notice. Mr. HUME said the Right Hon. Baronet's proposition was the most iniquitous he had ever known.—(A laugh.) Everything he (Mr. Hume) had beard confirmed him iu the propriety of pressing his amendment. The Committee divided, when the numbers were— For the amendment 34 Against it Ma Mr. GRANGER jor t i n ty en proposed the following — pro viso:—" Provided always, and be it enacted, that if any knowingly and malici ous ly g i ve any such , of and con cern i ng any suc h alien, which shall be fals e i n some material part thereof; ev e ry such person shall b e gu i lty of a misdemeanour, and i p n e i r o s r on am sthioanll as aforplaid ellie useless. being convicted thereof s h a ll, at t h e di scretion of the Court, be liable to be imp r i sone d f or any t i me nut ex ceeding three months." The l name The AT I'OIiNEY GENERAL opposed the proviso. having l any provision for his punish nformer, n l,ute w ou l d Committee oi e df xn bet the negatived the proposition to p u bl is h the tee divid e d, w h en there appeared— Fur proviso 33 Against it Majority —65 The clause was then agreed to. Clause 2 was agreed to without discussion. On clause 3, Lord 1). SWART thought it hard that aliens should in all cases be sent back to their own country. Hu thought that, leaving the country, they should have per mission to go where they pleased. His Lordship moved the insertion of words to that effect, but subsequently withdrew his amendment. Mr. COCKBURN proposed to add a proviso, re quiring the Lords of the Privy Council to cause to be delivered to the alien in writing a general summary of the matters charged against him and to allow reasonable time for his defence; and that, at his request, they should summon witnesses to be examined on oath in the case. Unless some such provision were made, the appeal given by the 13111 would be wholly inefficacious, and an alien might, without any fault of his own, at the instiga tion of some private enemy, be dompelled to leave toe country. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought such an in quiry as his Honourable and Learned Friend proposed would give the matter the form of a judicial proceeding, which was not the intention of the - Bill. If his Hon. and Learned Friend, however, persisted in the amend ment, he saw no serious objection to it. After a short conversation the proviso was adopted, and the clause, as amended, agreed to. On clause 4, Lord D. STUART moved to substitute " one " for " seven " years as the period within which aliens, having resided in this country, should be liable to the operation of the Bill. Sir G. GREY could not agree to the amendment pro posed; but as Government had no wish to take larger powers than were in their opinion necessary, he was willing to substitute'` three" for "seven" years. Mr. E WART apprehended that the alleged necessity for the Bill arose entirely from the events of the last few months.—(Hear, hear.) If so, where was the use M extending the operation of the Bill to foreigners who bad been in this country more than a year, and whoso residence here could have nothing to do with those events ? _ _ Mr. BRIGHT also remarked that those foreign, rs, whose residence here dated more than *year back could not possibly be persons who had come with any hostile intentions to our Government, or with any view to pro pagate the principles which had lately obtained in some other countries. Lord J. RUSSELL--Bnt there are persons engaged in assassination plots. Mr. BRIGHT cou ld no t understand what the Govern ment meant by th ese m y s terious hints about plots. If they had ot h er reasons to justify this Bill than those they had given they should state them.—(Hear, hear.) In Manchester and Liverpool, and no doubt in other trading towns, there were many foreigners, whose only object was commerce, and whole residence here was ad. vantageous to us. Ile knew not why Parliament should give powers to the Government to compel all such per. sons as bad not been here more than three years to leave the country at t h e i nst i ga tion of any man who, fur purp oses of his own, m ight denounce them.— (Bear, , ar.) It app eare d to him that Government ii were che r i s h ing a suspicion o f f oreig ners unw ort h y o f this count ry.— (Cheeri.4.) , A ir. H. YORKE reminded the Hon. Member for Man_ Chester th at t h e Bi l l woubi not app l y to persons engaged In commerce, but to those only wbote object was to in cite to iuterference with the established institutions of the cwintry and the disturbance or the public peace. _ Mr. bIUNTZ observ e d th a t the Hon. Member for Yolk se emed himself to forget that it was possi b le fur a man to b e d enounced without being criminal. There 19115 DO ground for the Bill at all, and he was almost MA Y 6, 1848. ashamed to call himself an Englishman if it was to be Elv i s se. o s e ; e gtx b:ac;gual succeed in overturning all our institutions unless the Government had power to send them out of the country. The whole proceeding was a disgrace to the Ministers and to the country.—(Cheers.) Mr. HILDYARD said, the fear was not that any number of foreigners residing here could overturn the Government, but the mischief that their machinations might produce to our own fellow -subjects. Englishmen had never had recourse, even in periods of the greatest excitement, to those practices which had di3• graced some other countries, and he hoped they never would. There were, however, parties in these kingdoms now, he was very sorry to say, who would not hesitate to incite the people to the most abominable acts—as throwing vitriol in the faces of the troops— ( Hear)—end it was possible that foreigners who had been engaged in the pratices to which he alluded as having occurred abroad, might come here and endeavour to ir.- duce people to follow their example. Should it happen that, in consequence of a morbid sensibility on the part of the Legislature, the blood of any of the people should have to be shed, he should, as a Member of that Legisla ture, be much more ashamed of himself than he should now be for having voted for this Bill. Mr. HUME said that no foreigner would be permitted, in any public meeting in this country, to raise his voice to advise a disturbance of the peace. If any man ven tured to do so he would assuredly be turned out He feared that under this Bill persons who sought refuge in this country from political psrsecution at home nitwit, at the instigation of their enemies, be compell e d to return to a place where, perhaps, their lives would be forfeited. —(Hear.) The Bill was a disgrace to its authors. He should support the substitution of " one" year for the three proposed by the Home Secretary. Mr. Alderman SIDNEY believed, had the 10th of April passed over previous to the introduction of the measure, they would never have heard of it. He could speak, as a magistrate, that nothing had come to his knowledge to afford the slightest justification for such a Bill. Lord D. STUART said the Noble Lord had that night stated incidentally what had never been stated before, that there were persons in this country plotting assassination.— (No.) Lord J. RUSSELL explained that his observation was in answer to the remark of the Hon. Member for Manchester, that all foreigners who had come here pre vious to the late French revolution had come for the purposes of trade. Mr. BRIGHT—Or as refugees. Lord J. RUSSELL had interrupted the Hon. Mem ber to say that persons were here before that time who had been engaged in assassination plots, and had been compelled to leave their own country in consequence, and that such persons might become dangerous h. re Lord 1). STUART was glad to hear this explanation, for he and others had understood the Noble Lord to say that there were foreigners in this country plotting assassination. He would not press his amendment to a division. The alteration proposed by Sir G. Grey was then made, and the clause as altered passed. The remaining clauses wer e a l so agree d to. Mr. URQUHRT proposed the following clauses, enacting— " That when and so often as the powers given by this Act shall be put into execution there shall be laid before Parliament, without unnecessary delay, a copy or copies of all informations upon which orders shall have been issued in accordance with this Act ; together with a statement of all proceedings which may have been taken in respect to airy alien or aliens against whom the same may have been put in force. " And that, in all cases where naturalisation has the effect of depriving alien friends of any of their civil rights in their own country, this Act shall be inopera• tive, provided that such alien friends, at the time of their residence in England, are engaged in commerce." Sir G. GREY opposed the first, stating that Govern ment would, in all cases, be responsible to Parliament and would produce all the information upon any case required. With regard to the second, he did not under stand what was meant by "alien Mends ; " but as die Bill stood naturalised loreigners would not be included in its operation. Mr. URQUHART explained that he used the word " friends" as distinguished from " enemies." In some cases, as in those of French and American citizens, they could not be naturalised here without forfeitir 6 s all .heir rights of citizenship i n th e i r own country. It was to such parties that this clause was intended to apply. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could not consent to a clause which wonld have the effect of rendering the Bill inoperative in respect to all French or American citizens sa ho might be engaged in commerce, however dangerous their residence here might be. If their resi dence was not dangerous to the peace of the country they - would net be retrieved. After a tew words from Lor I D. STUART in favour of the clauses they were put anti negatived without a division; and the preamble having been agreed to, the House resumed, and the Bill, with amendments, was or dered to be reported. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. On the motion that the Speaker leave the chair, in order to go into Committee on this Bill, Mr. HUME said be should not object to their going into Committee, but would take the sense of the House against the Bill on the report. • Col. SIBTHORP objected to the Bill as wholly un necessary, and because the city of London was ex empted from its operation. There was no part of the country stood more in need of sanitary regulations than the metropolis, and yet it was excluded, through the exercir at City influence with their representa tive, the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. Mr. URQUHART rose to me, pursuant to notice, thattin in the opinion of the House, the existing law provides protection against, and remedies tor, the nui sances which• affect the health ot man, but subse quently withdrew this amendment, and moved that the Bill be committed that day six months. His ob jcciiou to this Bill was, that it suspended the functions of that House, and delegated its authority to tax the people to another body. On that ground alone he thought it would not only prove an abordve attempt to ad vance sanitary reform, but absolutely retard it. It would, of coarse, be ardentl3 advocated by those who expected to partake t.f the benefits expected to accrue from the patronage it created, amounting to a variety of places for medical inspectors, engineers, and others. It was difficult for men with such anticipations to maintain their integrity, and he could not, therelore, refrain from say ing that this Bill came before the House in a most sespi cious guise, as far, at least, as its political and personal aspects were concerned. He objected to it also as estab lishing a new system of centralisation, which would usurp the power of local bodies, take from them the character of citizens and Englishmen, give rise to end less corruption, reduce all to a dull monopoly, and place in the hands of a central government an amount of patronage and power which, in addition to the degrada tion of our character and the deterioration of our cir cumstances, would entail upon us a new and enormous load of taxation. The Noble Lord, in introducing the Bill, never once made reference to the ex:sting sta tutes regulating the powers of municipal bodies, and providing for the prevention or suppression of' nui sances ; and this he locked upon as a most unusual' end culpable omission. Now the common law, as laid down by Blackstone, provided remedies against such nuisance, and any new law on the subject ought at least to make reference to it. The means of executing the common law in respect of nuisances had in the olden time been confided to courts leet; before there had existed the assize of nuisances, but these had been lost, and now they were reduced to seek the ordinary remedy of the law. Apia; it had formerly been the practice to appoint Commissioners under the Crown. These Com missioners had, however, no appointments to give, no profits to make, but were simply sent to inquire into the survey nuisances, and report upon whose defaults they existed. Such a course, he contended, would be useful in the present day. But this Bill was introduced to establish a special Board to sit in London, and to have the management of everything connected with the sub ject. Indeed, the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Morpetb), when he introduced this measure, said he wished the Bill went further, and therefore it was clear that it was only an instalment of the unconstitutional measures which might be expected to follow. The Bill would surrender the authority of the Legislature, the power of raising taxes, to an extrinsic body ; and thi s power the Noble Lord on the introduction of the Bill had expressed his doubts whether Parliament would consent to surrender. He (Mr. Urquhart) hoped those doubts would be realised.—(Hear, hear.) In all the Noble Lord had stated with reference to the Sanitary Commission he (Mr. Urquhart) fully concurred ; and he was sure, that if the Noble Lord had confined himself to remedying evils in that respect, and had abstained from the dangerous course of legislation now under the attention of the House, the Noble Lerd would have de served the meed of praise and the gratitude of his coun try.—(Hear, hear.) But instead ot adopting that course he had claimed this objectionable measure in the name of the people of England, in the name of humanity, in the name of public liberty and of public suffering. On each of these grounds he (Mr. Urquhart) denied his Lordship's plea. There were no Health of Towns Bills in France, America, Spain, and Germany; and why was it that the condition of the people of this country had been reduced to the lowest ebb of degradation? Was it not because the Legislature had passed bad laws affecting the labour and industry of man ? Away, then, with I this mawkish philanthropy, and restore the con dition of the people of Eughted by a recurrence to the principles of equal legislation. As to the Bill itself nothing could be so extraordinary and extravagant as its provisions. Its most material feature was the creation of a board of five commis. sinners (one to be a minister), to whom were to be con fided the most extensive powers ever given to any body of men in this country. This board was to be appointed during her Majesty's pleasure, and hence each commis sioner would become a mere puppet in the hands of the Ministry. This board, with such powers, ought, if at all, to be appointed, lice the judges, during good behaviour, and the local boards under their control ought to be re lieved from Government centralisation. lie was certain if the Bill was passed it would speedily have to be altered on the demand of the people. It had at present taken the country by surprise, itsobjects were almost unknown and yet petitions with twenty thousand signatures had been presented against it, while only five thousand had appeared in its favour. He held a petition, which he had not yet had an opportunity of presenting against the measure, and it Isere the signatures of several medical men who had signed a petition for the measure in ignorance, at the time, of its provisions. Tnis was a proof that the mass of the nation was ignorant of the proposed legislation. Even now deputations had come up from serious towns to protest against the Bill. These would increase—petitions would be laid upon the table, and remonstrances addressed to every individual Member against the measure, if time was afforded ; and he must remark, that if the Noble Lord had thought the Bill so beneficial in its object and so perfect in its character, he ought long since to have fully informed 1,11 notion on the subject. This Liss was uneke previous legislative measure ever introduced into this House—it much more resembled a Russian ukase; and if the Government should be so ill advised and so infa tuated as to press it, he hoped there would arise (and he believed it would arise) such an opposition as would compel them to retrace their steps. Before he con eluded he must complain of a publication emanating from the sub-committee of the Health of Towns Asso ciation, which had been circulated among Members of the House, in order to facilitate the carrying of th. Bill. That publication contained calumnies the meat foul, statements the most unfounded, language the most unseemly, and propositions the most absurd. Almost every local board in the country had been stabbed in the dark by these anonymous traducers (for the names of the sub-committee were not appended to the publication); and he called upon the many philan thropic members of the *association to disclaim the work and to withdraw themselves from it. In the Larne of the constituencies of England he called upon the House not to pass the Bill, but to postpone it for a few weeks, and he pledged himself' to bring in a measure which would meet every object without any objectionable centralising clause. He denied the necessity of any second Somerset house authority. He held that this measure wonld lead to endless jobbing. and would be to the Government a temptation against which their integrity would not b. proof, and would be to the liberties ot the people a blow against which their independence would not bear up. Hi should take every means in his power to obstruct the passage ot the Bill through the House, and with this view he now moved, as an amendment, that the Bill be com mitted this day six months. Mr. BANKES seconded the amendment, on the ground that the preamble contained provisions which actually exempted the whole of the city of London; and,by implies tion, a part of the metropolitan district, from the operation of the Bill. He would not give his consent to a Bill so framed. He was aware that those who had framed this measure knew that it contained objectionable clauses, to which the attention of the Government had been called by the authorities of the city of London; and though he would not impute to the Noble Lord who represented that City an undue partiality to his constituents, yet ht would say the Noble Lord's constituents had no greater right to his especiel attention than hail his (Mr. &alike's, constituents or those of th e H on . M ember who hao brought forward this amendment.—(Hear, hear.) With the Noble Lord all constitaenc;es ought to stand on the same footing.—(bear, hear.) If the Bill was objection able to the citizens of London, it was equally objection able to the towns in the county he (Mr. Bailees) repre sented; and until there should be presented a Biil whtet, would be good for all constituencies, he should refuse t, go into Committee. To du so with the present Bil would be at, idle waste of time. Those who sat oi, his (Mr. Bankes's) side of the House had often beet charged by the Government with wasting the time of the House; but it was the Government that caused it by the form in which they presented and brought forward their measures, to the principles or which both sides agreed. If then they prepared Bills in such a shape, how dared the Government charge him and those who acted with him with delaying the reme dial measures propounded by the Government ? The) themselves created the delay. Look, for instance, at the present Bill. The Government had actually been com pelled to double the letters of the alphabet in order to designate the number of the clauses they themselves thought necessary as amendments to a measure origi nally brought forward fourteen months ago. It wouto be in vain to go into Committee on such a Bill. %% iti, such a preamble the Bill could not possibly pass. It would inevitably be thrown out at last, and then its op. ponents would be taunted with wasting the public time. London and the metropolitan districts required a sand tery provision more than any other part ut the kingdom. Look at the chimneys rising around, overtopping th, towers of the new houses, and destro)ing all vegetatioh in their neighbourhood.—(Hear.) Was it not idle, then. to talk of sanitary improvement if' these things wen. overlooked ? Even the very air which they, the sena tors of the kingdom, had to breathe, was tainted in th(- way he had described, and no remedy was proposed for it.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The Honourable Mover of the amendment was net quite correct in stating that this measure was woolly unprecedented. Precedents mieh, be found in the time of the Commonwealth, when every thing was referred to commissions and commissioners; but these were not precedents which ought to be fol lowed in the present day. He would willingly delegate to the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests all the powers he was inclined to take upon himself; but would not consent to the appointment of a host of ir responsible commissioners, of whom the House knew nothing. He had the fullest confidence in the unite peached honour of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) Let all places in„the kingdom be includ e d in this Bill, under one responsible head, and then there would to no dissatisfaction. The kingdom at large never would be, nor ought to be, satisfied with the partial measure now proposed; the commissioners to be appointed under it would become generally unpopular, and before two years had passed the repeal of the Bill would be demanded. The distrust which it implied of local au thority was entirely undeserved; they ought only to be subjected to the imperial supervision of the Govern ment, which would be as effectual in that case as iu tha. of the supervision exercised over the magistracy by th. Right Hon. the Home Secretary—a supervision which was not less effectual from the rare occasions on which it was exercised. 'I he delay now proposed would be an advantage it the Bill was thereby rendered less objec tionable. Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the Hon Member who had last spoken had thought fit to have shown t, the House that a Bill for the purposes of sanitary im provement ought to include the City of London and the whole of the metropolitan districts, the House would have been ready to list, n to any argument on that head. But the Hon. Member had addressed no argument whatever to the House—he had contented himself with an imputation.—(Hear, hear.) It might he wise, ac cording to the preceiletic ‘,e the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Falkirk (Lord Lincoln), t• exempt the metropolis from the operation of such Bill ; or it might be a better plan to introduce a Bill si miler to that of lust year, including the whole of the me. trepulis. The Hon. Gentleman might think one plan better than the other, but he left all such reasons un touched, and thought it quite unnecessary to urge any argument ; relying on the imputation that he (Lord John Russell) bad abused his influence as a Member of the Government in favour of his constituents. Mr. BANKFS—I beg your pardon—l expressly ex eluded you from that charge. Lord J. RUSSELL—The Honourable Gentleman certainly said—" The Noble Lord had no right to see that the representations of his constituents were attended to while those of Members who represented other large cities and towns in the kingdom were disregarded." Mr. BANKES—I beg leave distinctly to state that I did not say any such thing, but I said the contrary. — (Sensation.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Certainly, what struck my ears was, that the representations of my constituents had been attended to; and that the representations of the Honourable Members for the towns iu the county o; Dorset, and of the Honourable Member for Stafford, ought to be equally attended to —(Cheers) lam cer tainly very glad to hear that the Honourable Gentleman meant nothing of the kind.—(Bear. hear.) Mr BANKES (Kith great warmth)—l mean to say that I said nothing of the kind.—(Laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL—If the Honourable Gentleman said nothing o!. the kind, then my ears entirely de ceived me.—(Hear. hear.) There were certain sen• tences, which I imagined I had heard, which it seems have never been uttered.—(Cheers, and laugh ter.) However, although I may have entirely mistaken what my ears conve.i ed to me, I do think I may be justified—having been liable to many attacks in the course of last year to which I never replied—in stalks what is the course I have taken, which has certainly not been a very active one upon this subject. I considered the question i.:enerally with my Noble Friend (Lord Mor petit), last year ; and he said he had come to the deco sion that the whole of the metropolis ought to be included in the Bill. I was quite satisfied with that decision. After the Bill was brou g ht in, some objections were made to that course. My Noble Friend reconsi dered the matter, with the p•rsotis whom he thought were best able to advise him. I desired him —which I am sure he was likely to do—to pay every attention to all parts of the subject, to make the Bill operate the most beneficially. The result was that he made many amend ments in the Bill, and did come to the determination to leave out the metropolis.—(Hear, hear, tied laughter from the Opposition benches) Now, a. very few moments ago I was told that there was no imputation against me. What am Ito understand from that very etnphivie " Hear, hear?"—(Cheers.) Is it meant to be insinuated, when I say that my Noble Friend told me that he had come to the determination to leave out the metropolis, that there must have been some occult in fluence behind—(No, no)—that there must have been some mystery or other ingetting the metropolis left out, in which my constituents must have been concerned? I will state the only communication which I have had with any constituent of mine —certainly a very import ar.t person —upon this subject. Last autumn we had a good deal of consideration, along with the Lord Chan cellor as to what should be done resoecting the metro politan commission of sewers, and we found that the authority of the Crown enabled us to appoint a new commission, comprehendin g a great part of the metro. polis, but that an Act of Parliament stood in the way of our comprehending the City of London. That Act re quire,' that a commission of sew, rs should act for the City of London Only ; and the Lord Chancellor had no authority in that respect. The Lord Mayor (he was the important constituent to whom I alluded just now) desired to see me, and wished to ask whether it was the intention of Government to include the City of London, by bringing in a Bill to repeal the Act referred to, and to include the City of London under the i same commission of sewerage as the rest of the metropo lis ? I said certainly it was the intention of Govern ment to introduce a Bill for that purpose ; end he said " Very well ; if Government have made up their minds to introduce such a Bill, all I can tell you is, that we of the City of Landon shall give it our most strenuous and determined opposition."—(Hear, hear.) That has been the only communication which I have had with my con stituents on the matter ; and if we have not persevered in that plan of comprehending the City of London under the same sewerage commission, I do not think it showed any base subserviency on my part to my constituents.-- (Cheers.) If Hon. Gentlemen think that London and the metropolitan districts ought to be included in this Bill, I hope they will condescend to give the House their reasons for so thinking, rather than to indulge in iropu tatiuns whicn were made din ing two months of the last session, and which have given great amusement and have furnished matter for vociterous ering six weeks of the his session.—(Chvsent, but which ers ) I hope will not be lit peated durin g Mr. HENLEY objected to a central commission, ex cept for the single purpose 9t “rraugiug the districts. It tves meet important thet the rata-payers themselet whether in earizhes, toenseips, or other boundarit should have the power of originating senitaty procee ings under this Act. Th a t p r i nc ipl e had worked e; tremely well in the I nc l osure A c t, an d he had hoped would have been a d o pt e d i n t h e presen t measure. An t ther objectionable point was t h a t p ower should be giv e ' not only to repeal all th e l oca l A c t s , but to revive su c of their provision s as were d es i ra bl e . This power, ii vested in the Privy C ounc il, was mos t uncoustitutir s —(Hear, hear.) A s t h e Bill s t oo d, a ny fifty inhabitat householder s , cith out an y li m i tat i on o f boundary, til e ' origittate proceedings utader the Bill, and might, if tt, thought proper, include the whole kingdom in one di trict. This plan could net work satisfactorily. tim r _ the Noble Lord would in Committee give up that ems! 030114 mass of patronage which the Bill would giTe p: Government, by abandoning the Commissioners , h e oppose th e Bill go i ng into Committee; for he looked wi ll the greate s t je a lo us y on this attempt, after the Go vern went had got b o ld of all the lawyers to extend their p, aronage to the doctors,—(Laughter.) Sir 11. VERNEY concurred in much that bad faller i . rom the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, but he COast , de red that th e p ract i ca l o bj ect i ons to t h e measure quite susceptible of being removed in Committee. 11 _°, certainly it would b e necessary to mo dify the propos e ' centralization to a very materiel extent. e tle; Mr. FITZROY was quite as sensible as any ge roan present of the numerous glaring defects of the apes..g sure, but, at the some t i me, he thought it most cons' tent with his duty to vote for its committal. It was tae nerally admitted th a t some re f orm i n our sa nitary eYe d re , was necessary, and h e t h oug h t t ha t t h e p res ent mess e d greatly amended, no d ou bt m i g h t mee t th e acknowle g want. tin' Mr. DIVETT had so decided an objection to ther P o o ciple of the measure, that he could not sanction its further tea progress. With all due respect for the Noble Letee! s e 00 i head of the Woods and Forests Department, he (bu ses , consider him more especially with his infinite other Or es , ;ions, at all the man who could properly carry out 1 1 . 1 °.,, 5t sure of this kind, and he was quite as convinceous, the country at large would not submit to an arblf: s " r. %patens of centralisation placed in the hands of these Chadwick.—(Hear, hear.) It was his opinion dis t Li se was quite as much danger of jobbing under centre:o, :ender local administration. The brothers, sons. neP h h e ea . .1;d what not, of Cabinet Ministers had shown e f .elves quite as disposed as other men to that er el oe i iebbing which consisted in getting hold of as much ot ) is possible for as little labour as possible.—(ll'44 h the tie denied that any genuine popularity attached tL b i e dill.—(Hear.) I t was quite manifest that the re(! sof Viscount evinced n o aptitude for thi s particular businurb, st all eve nts , f ur a f ter w i th d raw i ng one Bill oa the awed lee% by reason of the general outcry against it, b e re introduced another which exhibtted no sort of iteP ra went in prciple, end little, if any, in detail.there° • Viscount EBRINGTON contended that s e o a general demen t ! f or t h e measure, and, in part i c ular, the part of Exeter and other large towns. Mr. H. DRUMMOND c h aracter i sed the w h o le of the '•e case, got up by int ereste d p art i es aga i nst t h e Lo ce-H ood seas throughout the country, as full of the grossest exT e f rations. lie had an entire o bj ect i on to t h a t eYei„„, a eot centralisation which was so popu l ar w i t h the Pieced Government, and which, i n hi s op i n i on , h a d Prus — die much of the evil whi c h h a d man if este d it s elf in , or e administration o f th e new poor -l aw. The gra nd fe 9 : n i, u the measur e , i n t h e eyes o f gentlemen oa the some erial benches, was its proposed appointment assert mill doze n comm i ss i oners, with secretaries, naa ," - pet secretaries, an d i nspectors i nfinite, with in d e finite e el 'tit of the co uso lid ate d fund, and with unlimited ever cities (London). with cautious judgment exe s e Pl le ya (Hear)—tow ns an d count i es, streets, squares, and a a nd souses and cottages, chapels and churches, rst es e dele esyments of all sorts, with powers, in a word, to to e l and make with ever y t hi ng an d evert body, uncheels Ley one but th e N o bl e Viscount opposite and Mr,' 8 C 0 eiek— an exce ll ent protection for the countrys 13 ,,,,s of ended that all that w a s nee d e d was t h e a ppolatn 3 " o of e single effi c i en t comm i ss i oner, un d er the direeti° t ee Lhe Home Secretary, for the purpose of visiting 4 e various towns throughout the country, and enfordee sxeeution of their duties by the local boards. iot a Viscount MORPETH. hoped the House would go o Committee on the Bill. He should be quite ree o bjer sake into his consideration every practical or real qui eev ion that might be suggested. He would, for in e e` pe te admit that he was by no means indisposed to ell e Bore the discussion of the question propounded bY L a u don of Member as to the propriety of limiting the t r s o f the the commission. He was also quite conk o f anis many difficulties that surrounded the qu esti°ll he ha il tary legislation ; an d h e h a d a d opte d , se ft. as h a d beep neen able to do so, the various suggestiOns tun' u ntrYs forwarded to him from different parts .of the e° th o He must take the present opportunity of denYing. oo o , he powers which were sought ler the comeol"' sttr i , were of that arbi.rary character which had been s i s s r d 'wed to them. As to the powers given to the D e e e of Privy Ceuneil with reterende to the control of, local boards, they wero no more thanwhat hat 7, 1 o 'd ready been sanctioned in respect to the 10C131 acts. of t; House that he I! already been made a ware of t he fact that a tat lio Bill proposed by her Majesty's Government, The N n l o u r n e i o c v i p r a r to Corporation able tre the Bill. o au o , i t Hehad the sattsfactle Indy of the clergy had given their approbation to Im Member for Stafford opposed the Bill ; b ut h e belie ltd hat the Hon: Member's feelings were not particinektis in by his constituents. He (Lord Morpeth) heldin 'tand a petition from the inhabitants; of Stafford", e4O ll plaining of the wretched sauitury state of that' teitf°' ; g ee praying for legislative interterence. This petition signed by all the clergy, all the medical professitita e g o •pt one, and all the members of the cor l )ropoz,ed this B i ll, h owever, not as one sil ener t— „ e or oct ors or cl ergymen, b ut as being essentially th e ref eau's Bill.—(Hoar, hear.) He wished to say' a 'oe• words Row on the met-vexed q uest i on o f cen tralise n o s .ted here he would say that there was not in tbati l f s esi a greater fzientl to a well -arranged municipal lOU , s elf 4overnment than WI was. H e k new h o w in tiu !iiliti he principle o f l oca l government and responel 001 were interwoven with our English notions co ol tanners, and he had, therefore, always in favour of motions for the extension of; 0 1 0 1 eipal institutions. But this Bill went to exte nd , fie powers not to destr o y t h em . I t wou ld g i ve powe rs 0. d D o ing, draining, and c l eansing to 92 towns, w hich ha 151,,, such powers, at pres en t, an d wou ld secure thou' 10 O f which now had only divided or restricted powers' 296 towns which bad now no local Acts, and l sB „;nfer which had only restricted powers, this Bill woul,°Lisilot'' ;ull and complete means of sewage, cleansing, " 1 . 0 ifr and draining. But some central control was el• t his ,ended. He had already explained his notions ° l2 head, and had thought he had satisfied the Hous e ; fat , ence then, he had been a ssa il e d i n many quarte ; r ie of I ; :tempting, as was alleged, to carry the prirl ivo eentratizanon too far. He had accordingly te'r e tione' nits counsels men well acq ua i nte d w i th local gar-five* and had determined on c en t ra l control to th i s ex peel ;fewer of revising the bound aries o f d istr i cts , an %ate in cases of difference, and a power of auditing °cage; ehere disputes should ar i se. However, if in „trot inittee objection should b e ta k en to the limite d ee- the le proposed, he should be prepared to Pay the } cost respectful attention to an segestione . 00 0 ;night be made. All us i on h ad been made to a d t ' cil i'lle } emanating tram the Health of Towns Commission. ,bet imminent was anonymous, and he did not wish,. f e ll i r ti of o allude to it. His obja et was to advance the o e- g , t igh• r,he people, not to fling foul water on those who A ;WO differ with him in opinion. A great deal was Wu; core the rights of Englishmen, but let them take som e the of the lives of Englishmen.—(ll-ar, hear.) l'. e t her douse recollect that while they were legislating , re ot sands were dying under the influence of our Poe 0 , , wretched sewage a nd d ra i nages and let them OP"O J 13111 which he con fid ent l y asserted might be Called ;-0 tor promoting the health, the comfort, and the 00- of the people of England.—(Cheers.) P eter Mr. BUCK asserted that the inhabitants of be te had spent 100,0001. on d ra i nage, an d were n ot, ; t ot' tore, to be stigmatised w i t h h av i ng neglecte d the 100 1 tary condition of their town. He thought th e k t ,s the questions should be l e f t to l oca l control, and bat expenses of the c o u n t ry s h ou l d not b e increase d V ef f e et missions which, jud g i ng b y exper i ence, coul d 001Y„jec5' waste and contusion. He should di v id e on e very P' tor the appointment of commissions. h igbli Mr. H. BERKELEY said that the Bill WO 'el nns plet popular with his constituents, and the only eesetes was that the city of London was excluded from "'ota ration.—(Hear, hear.) According to the evidene ° o it before the Sanitary Commission ther e was no t°" .. c olt the kingdom in a worse state than the metroeoli,l sa v ier!, He thought the House had a right to know w ua- ey the plans proposed for the improvement of the a b l e London. In his opinion London ought not t° „ s tste enlisted from the Act. Nut only was its saaitar-l e , bad, but is moral position also. He should Y°l - into Committee. 1, la P I Lord LINCOLN (amid cries of " Divide") e-- (3 . _, a kef i s have made an observation but for the last sr - OM' reference to the metropolis. He was bound, in l a OP; and fairness, to state that he was one of those we.,„ a s ens vised the exclusion of the metropolis from the er a s ure 13;11 with a view to another and a more cotnnre he- iisr till - measure. With reference to the question of cen non ho should not go into it now, for it did o°t s upon this stage, but he should be prepared to de 11 % % for it on a future Occasion. A t present he should going into Committee. There was one other poi L o.) (Shouts of Oh," amid w h ic h t h e Noble Lor d sat ote, Mr. SI'OONER moved the adjournment of the d e The Heuse divided, when their appeared-- Ayes Noes Majority 229175 de do Colonel SIBTHORP then mov e d th a t the 111 °' now adjourn. 00 Lord J. RUSSELL had hoped when the Er° es h e a s De decided by a l arge ma j ority to proceed with Bill. tw-oeet's further objection would be offered. As, 'leer some Honourabl e G entlemen opposite awpeared. OO mined to force the House to division after divine the question of a dj ornment, rather than occu py the tise of the H ouse b y dividing he would consent to adi°ll'. debate. The debate was accordingly adjourned. TOBAGO RELIEF AND IMMIGRATION BRITISH GUIANA AND TRINIDAD - A tot The report of the Committee thereon was egrw and leave to bring in a Bill on the subject was giO n. _ 4O The House adj“urned at One o'clock DIE. l e ' On the 30th ult., Mrs. Chapp e ll, of the Alinories, a c ed yoig 0,1 the 30th ult., at G ree n-park, Bath, Octavia , th e of William Taswell, sq. are el l On the 30th ult., at Cranbourne Lodge Turnhaul,;`,looo - Mary, relict of the late Lieutenan t " Daniel. at -------- London: Printed and Published by MURDO lO uIN I+ a iNo. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Offie% ou utf Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, ifl Alidtileaex, Saturday, May 6, IE4B.