The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 25. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'clock. ROME. The Puke of RICHMOND presented a petition from the congregation of St. Matthew's, Glasgow, against diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome. - TIIE NAVIGATION LAWS. The /ii;n7.E DUKE also presented a number of petitions from shipowners and sailors of Liverpool, Montrose, and other places, in favour of these laws. The Noble Duke said he could not conceive how any Minister, in the present state of Europe, could be wild enough to propose any alteration in these laws, beeause he believed the stability of the country materially depended upon their maintenance. It was unnecessary for him to add that he should vote against any proposition for their abrogation. ROME. Lord STANLEY presented a petition from a place in Devon against diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome. NAVIGATION LAWS. The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition, signed by 6,000 of the shipowners, merchants, and sailors of Liverpool against any alteration in these laws. The petitioners hoped at least that no measure on the subject would be introduced until the fullest inquiry had been made as to the operation of these laws. The Noble Lord also presented a petition to the same effect, signed by SOO persons, from Bideford, a►s we undeastood. The Earl of HARDWICKE presented a number of petitions to the same effect from London, Shields, Exeter, Scarborough, Belfast, Sunderland, and other places. FRIENDLY SOCIETIES. Dad BBAIIILONT and the Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions from societies of Oddfell )ws, in Manchester and other places, praying that the pre visions of the Friendly Societies' Act might be ex- Waded to them. NAVIGATION' LAWS. The Earl of lIARDWICKE then, in pursuance of notice, proceeded to move for a Committee of Inquiry into the operation of these laws. The Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) had kindly intimated to him that he should not object to the motion for the appointment of the inquiry he proposed, but as the question woo so important, be felt that he should not dis charge his duty if he did not enter into some details. These laws were so mixed up with a number of trades, awed so much diversity of opinion prevailed upon. the matter, that without inquiry it wouhl be utterly impossible to legislate upon them, because they would thereby be enabled to obtain the opinion of competent persons.—([leer.) Much dissatisfaction prevailed out of doors at the opinion of the Government with respect to these laws. As late as the 15th of last March, the Ship owners' Society had been informed by the Govern silent that it was not their intention to interfere with the navigation-laws. But a change came over the Government, for on the 23d of November it was first intimated that a change was intended. The intimation was given to the people of this country, though a correspondence that had taken place at the time between the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) and Mr. Bancroft, the American Minister. The corre spondence was published in the newspapers; and he asked them if it was right that the people of England should have first received information of the intended change through the columns of a newspaper, and, further, whether the Noble Lord had not violated the laws of the country by the course he had adopted ? Not only had the county been deceived, but the Foreign Minister was pledged to the people of the United States that these laws shouli be repealed, and he thought that was clearly illegal. Before the Committee of the House of Commons on the subject of the navigation laws the evidence was one-sided, twenty-five witnesses being ex• amined in favour of trrepeal of these laws, and only nine and the Committee had made no report ; an d against,this surely was a reason fur the appointment of a Com mittee of their Lordships. There were other circum stances connected with this Committee which rendered it unfair. A distinguished naval officer, on the day he was to have arrived to take a part before the Committee in favour of the continuance of these laws, was sum moned away at the call of duty. A statistical paper on the subject of the navigation laws had excited much attention and been laid hold of by the free-traders. Mr. Porter hadendeavoured to show, in the paper in questio.a 4 ! the great ,advantages of an unprotected trade ; but the, statements in that paper were false.—(Hear, heat.) lie gjve a list of places under the protected trade, and a list or places which he said were free, and comparing the returns in 1824 with those in 1946, he made it appear that the increase in the former had been at the rate of 25 per cent.; whilst the latter had been 182 per cent.; but in point of faot, the ships of other states with whom reciprocity treaties existed had no right to transfer the goods of foreign countries to this kingdom; and in truth the whole trade was a protected trade when regarded in this light. This applied to China, Mexico, France, and ether places put down on the side of free trade, and the calculation was therefore most erroneous. The Noble Lord pointed out other errors in the. returns of a similar nature, and stated there was no doubt that the increase of the whole tonnage had been under the protective lams. It had been stated by the Noble Lord opposite that it would be an advantage to the West Indians to make a change in the navigation-laws; but, as far as he had been able to ascertain, the West Indians scouted Le ides. If the freights were reduced, say 25 per cent., from the %Vest Indies, they would also be lowered in the same ratio from the East Indies, the Mau ritius, and other places, and the reduction in the rate of freight would produce no sensible alteration in the price of cotton or tea. But the tact was, the Noble Marquis was the driver of a theory which was perilling the best interests of the country.—(llear, hear.) Was it not so ? Need he point to the state of our import and ex port trade—to our cotton manufactures—to the West India trade—and to our finances, in proof of the asser tioa?—(Llear, hear.) From 1842 to 1846 there had beet, a deficit of 35,000,0001. in our export, as compared with the import trade. Then, as to the cotton trade, taking 16 months at the end of 1845, and comparing that period with the 14 months ending January, 1848, the total loss of cotton exports to the manufacturers, who were so anxious to gee cheap sugar, had been about 1,100,0001. Ile thought, therefore, there was abundant reason for the appointment of the Committee for which he asked, and that the subject should be put before the country again and again, until they were satisfied of the danger of the policy of free trade to our commercial prospects. The policy pursued from 1 . 700 to this time had raised the shipping from 216,007 i -to at this moment 3,800,000 tons, and he was convinced that the only safe course was to purses the system width had produced such a result.--(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that if the American trade were opened it would ruin our colo nial trade, which at preseut employed 40,000 'seamen. While the smallest benefit would be gained by this Country we were about to give the American commercial navy advantages that would ruin us. We could not compete with America in this respect; they would bring our tea from Chins, and load buck to the United States with cotebn. Was there no example? Why, in the South See whale fishery, since the bounty had been taken away in 1824, and the reduction of the protecting duty on sperm oil from 301. to 151. in 1830 (which duty would altogether ceark in the present year) the Americans had beaten us out of the market; and, in fact, the cost of their ships and their men enabled them at all times to compete with us to certain advantage. Then, as to our reciprocity trade. If we referred to those countries with which we had reciprocity treaties the result would show lbw/ they had operated greatly to our disadvantage. Anottser subject to which he wished to direct atten tion, was that if the shipowner were allowed to build where he could do so at the cheapest rate, we should soon lose our private dockyiii:ds, which were almost as important (referring to the subject of stational defences) as the mercantile navy itself. With these merchant yards, which had produced a very large proportion of our military shipping in the last war, we should also lose the numerous artisans whom they employed. It must be expected that our shipowners would have re course to. foreign shipbuilders and foreign yards, where they could obtain their vessels at a much cheaper rate In the United ;States ships cou ld be built at 17 per c e nt.. less than its this country; inHolland 20 per cent. less, in France 22 per cent. lolls, in Denmark and Norway 31 per cent. less, in liretneinz7dpseir cent. less,Prussia 43 had Britishcent. - per less, and in F the cent. less. If that were true.. what chance in competition with these of foreign shipowners ga countries? And what benefit would it be to this dismantled? country to find in times of necessity' the yards of those shipowners But this would not be all. We must admi t f ore i gn sea men eels°. Now, the relative expenses of British and foreign ships were as follows, for a y ear, each being supposed to have the sam e number of of ficers and th e same number of seamen as they had at present:—At t hi s time a British ship of 500 tons cost 6,501, a year; an American ship, 6401.; a Pru ss i an 669/ ; ft Dutch ship , ship, 885/.; a Swede, 39 51 .; and a Bremen vessel, 4711. The merchant seamen, be it remembered, were tho class from which the naval marine of this country was drawn. Abandon the mercantile marine, and we must abandon the navy of England, for its time of war it would be utterly impossible ever to man it. If their Lordships, therefore, were determined to have an effective navy, it' th ey desired to have a certain way of manning that nary in time of war, and if the country wished to have clairap navy estimates, they must maintain the protec tions. and the monopoly which the British shipowner at present enjoyed. 'The Noble Lord concluded by sub- i mi fling his motion. Earl GREY said, as their Lordships were already in foimeed, it was not the intention other Majesty's Govern- Zomata scary, oppose this m o ti on . Th e motion might not be b u t, at any rat e , it could do no harm, and it Wens his b e l ie f that the mot:, infOriniirion their Lordships 'measure her Ntnieyst hack the better tit • would be enabled to deal with any ion if he iwnetr y r ' e s s ? t n h t e lie w r i e t of ho t u e r t fit , f t : s l r low the Nuble Lord through there t was to be an inquiry, his -various remarks. and' measure was ti h o e w rea l t r a lioc,,c,wn before them, there was • no necessity u 7. to i eZ e Lord without a evil . ling to leave the speech of Ile was quite the rep 15. There was no necessity age inst the) Noble Lord's denunciations free country the abstract,• nor to follow 4ien through allreteh,!rade in mr.t.4 of them very errone ous , w hi e r h he hail d u - e p tails ' for Th eir co ns i, 'aeration. lie would on ly say, that when h " the prope r t i me arrived, they would b e a bl e, as he head no doubt, very clearly to demonstrate that the in terests of lowners here were not bound up with protection the tloble Lord had adsiccated. With THE SUN, respect to the colonies, however, when the Noble Lord said that protection was necessary to the colonies, he would take leave to observe that on that point the Noble Lord was entirely at issue with the colonists themselves. When the Noble Lord also said that the Government had changed their views upon this subject, he must beg to say that he thought he had brought forward that charge without sufficient evidence. Lord Clarendon had merely informed the deputations to which the Noble Lord alluded, that it was not intended to propose a change to Parliament during the last session. His pledge did nut in any wig affect the course to be taken at a fu ture period. Then the Noble Lord had referred to certain correspondence published in America. Now, if that correspondence was rightly read, it would resolve itself into a general expression to the American Minister, to the effect that the Government believed a mutual arrangement with regard to shipping would be of benefit to both countries. That was not a statement which ought to subject them to the Noble Lord's censure. But then the Noble Lord complained of the mode in which a Com mittee appointed in the other House upon this subject had been selected, and the way in which their inquiries had been conducted. Now he must say that he did not think it a convenient course to di:cuss in that House how the House of Commons conducted an inquiry. For his own part, he must say that he believed the inquiry in the Commons had been conducted with strict justice, and with the most scrupulous care.—(Oh.) It always happened on inquiries of such a sort, that more witnesses were examined upon one side than upon the other, and nothing could be fairer than the whole arrangements respecting the examinations in the case to which he alluded. Another point on which he must say a word, was the charge made against Mr. Porter, whom the Noble Lord had declared to have made a statement which he said to be " false."—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Now what did that charge of falsehood resolve itself into? Nothing else than an erroneous deduction. Mr. Porter's figures were all correct; but he took a view of them in which the Noble Lord did not agree. He had only to add that he was perfectly willing the Com mittee should he appointed, and that he was very sanguine indeed in his anticipations that the result would be to afford strong evidence in favour of the measure proposed hereafter to be submitted. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH expressed his gra tification that her Majesty's Government did not object to the Committee. When the Noble Lord, however, said that the present law had been very injurious to the mercantile navy of the country, he was led to infer the measure the Government would propose would be cal culated greatly to improve that law. If such were the case, he trusted the House would consider no Bill that had not for its object greatly to increase the trade and the importance of our mercantile marine. —(Hear.) He should come to its consideration with that principle firmly fixed in his mind, and determined to give his sup port to no other measure whatsoever. With respect to the colonists he was not surprised that those who looked merely to the cheapening the carrying trade of the country were disposed to support an alteration of the navigation-laws ; but shipowners had to look at the matter in a different point of view, and it was the it view that he should be most desirous to consult. The Noble Lord who brought forward this motion had referred to returns relating to the amount of tonnage of different nations. Those returns ho (L )rd Ellenborough) thought exceedingly fallacious, and he thought it would be necessary to have very different returns upon this head. There was also some revision required in the present state of our lsw with reference to apprentices. He thought the state of our law at present was calcu lated to throw a large number of able-bodied seamen out of employ, by enforcing the employment of too great a number of apprentices. lie should be much surprised if inquiries upon these points did not prove that two ninths of the seamen on whom we at present relied were only apprentices, and a large number of those under 20 yeas sof age. This might be one cause of so large a num ber u:' our seamen being at present in the American marine. If tile return was correct which gave 112,000 as the nullifier of sailors in American employ, it was shown that of those 112,000 no less than 100,000 were fo reigners.—(Hear, hear.) How many of these were British subjects he could not tell, but of course a very great proportion, and this was a most formidable con sideration. In conclusion, he impressed on their Lord ships the great importance of su,taining our mer c antile marine, and said that he felt strongly that should a war ever again break out with this country it would be necessary to resort again to impressment. He had read a number of crotchetty pamphlets urging a regis tration of seamen as an efficient measure for manning the navy; but when he recollected that we should want in our fleet one half the entire number of our merchant seamen, he felt sure that nothing but the impressment of regimen would avail. It must be remembered, more over, that our system of warfare, in consequence of the adoption of steam. was now altered; and that whilst we carried our attacks into the ports of the enemy, we must also have a sufficient force to protect ourselves at home from similar attacks. The motion waa then agreed to. Their Lord hips adjourned at twenty minutes past Seven. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Feb.2s. The SPRAYER took the Chair at Four o'clock. nit; DUBLIN CORPORATION PARMA- MENTARY FUND. The order for the second reading of this Bill was discharged. LOUGH CORRIB IMPROVEMENT COMPANY. This Bill was also read a second time and passed. LAMBETH WATER-WORKS. Mr. PEARSON presented two petitions in favour and one against the Lamb2th Water-works Bill. .Alderrnan lILIMPHERY presented a petition also in favour of the Bill. Sir W. MOLESIVORTII presented a petition in favour of the Bill. LANCASTER ELECTION COMMITTEE. Mr. DEEDES, as Chairman of the Lancaster Election Committee, reported that Mr. James Dodson had answered satisfactorily all the questions put to him, and he therefore moved that he be discharged out of the custody of the Sergeant-at. Arms without payment of fees. Motion agreed to. the table of the House an account of the expenditure of the said lean ; also, whether the 420,0001. of the China money de- Lined at the Cape, might be taken as a deduction from the 1,100,000/. expended in carrying on the Kafir war. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that the whole amount received as the produce of the loan, had been carried to the Consolidated Fund. Last year he stated that the advances to Ireland had been about 10,000,0001. Up to the present time he found that a sum of about 9,000,0001. had been advauced in the way of loan or grant to Ireland. A balance of 1,000,0001. was, therefore, available for other Irish purposes. IVith respect to the Iry ter part of the question he found that the advances from the Commissariat chest had been so heavy that he had not as yet been able to draw anything from it. If the vote he should propose to-night would be granted he would then be able to draw on the Commissariat for the amount of the China money, which could be made available for the put poses of this year. LOANS (IRELAND). In answer to a question put by Col. CONOLLY, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that the amount of loans made to Ireland was 4,450,0001., and that the grants amounted to 4,270,000/. In answer to a question put by Mr. E. DEN • NISON, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the 1,000,0001. remaining in hand would be avail able for carrying out the provisions of several Bills passed last session for the purpose of granting loans for the improvement of land, and for the settlement of some still outstanding accounts in the Commis • sariat Department. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the House at its rising was ordered to adjourn till Monday next. INSURRECTION IN PARIS. Mr. HINDLET wished to know if the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would have any objection to state to the House the nature of the latest information which he had received respecting the political state of Paris. Lord PALMERSTON said, amid profound silence, the latest intelligence which I have received from Paris is dated half-past 6 o'clock on the evening be fore last—(Laughter.) These dispatches inform me 01 the retirement of M. Guizot, and that M.Mole had been appointed to form a new Government; later than that I have no official information.— (Laughter.) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER for the House going into Committee of Supply for the purpose of taking a vote oi 1,100,0001. for the Kafir war, and 245,410/. 19i. 7d. for the navy excess, Mr. HUME said he was sorry that an imperative , sense of duty called on him to offer an interference with the service of Government, but he would appeal to the House, whether, when it was agreed to advanc, 3,700,0001. on account of the army and navy, it was no distinctly understood that they were not to be called or to vote any further sum until the Select Committee ha: been enabled to meet, and to examine and report upou the expenditure. It was proposed on that occasion to take a vote on a distinct estimate for the excess in the navy expenditure of last year, which was pronounced to be one of the most objectionable votes that could have been proposed, and when that estimate was withdrawn, the vote on account was granted under the arrangemen . to w 11:ch he had referred. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begge( l ro state to the Hon. Member that he had, on being tole 'hat the vote granted last Monday was only on acconn , distinctly said that on that understanding he should brin,s forward the two votes for the navy excess and th. Katie war on the next supply night. Mr. lIUME had no doubt whatever, since the High Hon. Gentleman had asserted it, that the fact was so. But he objected to any estimates being brought forware until the House saw how the matter stood with respec to the expenditure—how far it was necessary to irnpos. new taxes for the purpose of increasing the establish merits of the country. His object, therefore, was t,. pledge the House to grant no additional tax until th, Committee had reported on the expenditure—(flear, hear.) In the year 1835 he had protested against th, additional expenditure which was incurred then.. lb said on that occasion, the time would come wherethe) would all be brought up, to use a common expression. and the time had now arrived. Iu the present state of commercial and manufacturing depression how could th, Noble Lord attempt to impose new taxes ? And yet he spoke of the matter as if he was performing some most creditable task, and that the people had only to listen to him to yield, and to pay any tax he pleased to propose. The Noble Lord stated with great sangfroid, that in the year 1835 the army numbered 130,000 men, and that in 1847 the numbers hard increased to 138,000, without telling them why this increase had been made, or offering any reason for its continuance. The Noble Lord also state,. that the ordnance had been raised from 8,420 men in 1335 to 14,000 men in 1847. , He was not surprised at petitions such as had been read in the House being pre sented against th• income-tax from Liverpool and London, or that the people should endeavour to arrest the Government in their intentions, and stop their ca reer of extravagance. It would be a charity to stop th. Ministry in their downward course.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord ought to have furnished the details of the dockyard battalions, the pensioners, and the polio force, all of whom were armed, amounting to a ferce of 250,000 men, and actually showing that the Govern merit hard converted a peaceful commercial community into a warlike, threatening nation.—(Hear, hear.) He had hoped to hare heard from the Chancellor at the beginning of the session that he was prepared to remove taxes and not to impose new ones. The Government had been asleep—it was time to awaken theta. It had been asserted that the revenue had decreased, and that there must be more taxes imposed to support public credit. How fallacious that statement was he would presently show. lie had always; been a strenuous ad vocals for maintaining the public credit, by keeping faith with the creditor, and though he had seen a prop•sition published with the signature of one of her Majesty's Privy Councillors attached to it for wiping oil i 5 per cent. of the National Debt, he never was for sanctioning such a scheme, and he protested against it at the time. But the way to maintain public credit was by reducing the expenditure within the income. And as the Government was responsible for the imposition of the taxes, so they ought to be made responsible foe their expenditure. From the returns of the income and expenditure between the years 1822 and 1845, it would seem that the latter was exactly the same in both years. It certainly did seem extraordinary that, after so many years of peace, the same amount of expenditure should be required that was called for during the war. When, from year to year, the question was put, why is this enor MOU4 expenditure still kept up, the answer always given, from 1822-25 to 1823 was, that the state of the continent was still unsettled, and that France had not settled down under her monarchy. He had always been opposed tt interineddling in the affairs of foreign nations, for such interference had always produced rancour arid 411-will. —(Hear, hear.) And was it now that, after the downfal of a dynasty of seventeen years' standing, England was to bo so foolish as to suppose that het army had ever tended to settle the differences which existed amoagat the French people ?—(Hear, hear.) So far from this, he thought the very contrary effect was produced; and, if all the accounts he had heard were correct, it was probable that Louis Philippe would soon make his appearance in England. He would toll the Government that it was not in the power of any array to support a monarch on his throne against the wish of his people; arid Louis Philippe now found that, after ex pending 60,000,0001. or 70,000,000/. on his forts round Paris, he was not a bit the nearer securing the perma nence of his dynasty.— (Hear. hear.) What a lesson did not the recent events in Paris offer to Governments? Who were the authors of' what had occurred there ? The middle classes—the same classes on whose behalf he now appealed in that House against the impositions endured by them. Why was it, let him ask, that there were between 80,000 and 40,000 more men in the army now than there were in 1833 ? In the year 1822 he wasted six weeks in trying to reduce the navy and military estimates, and ho took no less than from seventy to eighty divisions on thorn. Ho then moved an address to the Crown, praying that the establish ment of the country should be reduced to the standard of 1792. Mr. Bankes moved an amendment on his motion, making a very trifling alteration in the words, and that was carried. The result was, that the estimates next year wore reduced by 3,000,0001., and the number of men in the army was lessened by 10,000. He said now what he then stated, that it was the duty of the House to compel Ministers to retrace their steps, and to reduce the army and navy establishments. But the House and the country had been told, as an excuse, that the successive additions to the army and navy had been sanctioned ) ear after year by the House of Commons. That the fact was so he admitted ; but he attributed it ' to the corresponding fact that the country had not been represented in the House of Commons. It had likewise been universally asserted that the revenue had de creased. That was not true. During the years 1833, 1834, and 1835, the revenue had always exceeded the expendi ture, and the reason was that the finances were never better managed than during those years. The amount of tka revenue, after deducting drawbacks and expenses of collection was during those three years on an average 50,5 0 4,5451. In the year 1846 what was the net amount of the revenue ? Not less than 57,589,0001., showing an excess of taxation during the latter period over 1833 of 7,064,0001. He, therefore, protested against any Minister asserting that the revenue had decreased. Revenue had not failed, but every increase of receipt had been met by increase of expenditure. The increase had been mainly in the navy, and he should be able to show that in that department one halt' the present ex penditure and one-half the number of ships would be amply sufficient for all useful purposes. It was on these grounds that he had brought forward the present mo tion—a motion which pledged the house nut only iegainst, increased expenditure, but also to an immediate and active course of retrenchment. There were many points in which a Committee might find room for retrenchment. There were, for instance, the enormous brevets, of lute so frequent.—(llear, hear.) But the items were numerous, and, if properly curtailed, the ne cessityforaaenuraitnnaciair g, eased income-tax might be altogether avoided. By a c h eaper mo d e o f col l ect i ng the Customs, genteaa n t o f of s sinecure u r e fundedin comes, and he would unfunded ribinyeakba better m debt, by the estimate of 1846 amply sufficient for all pur poses. Among other things the Irish estimates required revision. In a few years they had increased to the amount of 1801. per cent., and were principally items with which the consolidated fund had, properly speak- NATIONAL DEFENCES. Petitions against any increase of the war establish ments of the country were presented by Mr. Redhead - Yorke, from York; by Mr. Evelyn Denison, from Salton ; by Mr. Richard Cobden, from Bromsgrow ; and by Mr. G. Thompson. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Petitions against the admission of the Jews into Parliament were preLente4 by Lord G. Manners, from Cambridge; by Mr. Spooner, and by Major Berk,k,ford. ATTORNEYS' CERTIFICATE DUTY. Mr. COCKBURN presented petitions from New port and Ryde, praying for a reduction of the annual duty on attorneys' certificates. CATHOLIC * t'HARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. Sir W. MOLESWORTII presented a petition from the Catholics of Southwark against the Chari table Trusts Bill. BOLTON ELECTION COMMITTEE. The members of this Committee were called to the table and sworn. INCREASE OF TIIE INCOME-TAX. Mr. CARDWELL presented a petition from Liverpool, which was agreed to at a public meeting, numerously attended, presided over by the Mayor. The petitioners stated that they viewed with alarm and indignation the proposal of her Majesty's Govern ment ta make any addition to the income-tax ; they con sid,:red that the present revenue was sufficient to an swer all necessary purposes if proper economy were used—(Hear)—and they prayed that if any deficienccy existed, that it might be made up by a tax upon legacies and probates to the succession of real and personal property—(Hear, hear) —and that no addi tion whatever might be made to the existing burdens on the people imposed by the incotne-tax.—(Hear.) Lord DUNCAN presented a petition, agreed to at a public meeting held in Bath, against the proposed increase of the income-tax. Captain BERKELEY presented a petition from the city of Gloucester to the same effect. LNCOME-TAX RETURNS. Lord D. STUART gave notice of his intention to move, upon an early day, for a number of returns showing the number of persons paying, and the amount paid by them, as income-tax. Sir WILLIAM. CLAY presented a petition against the income-tax. Mr . NEWDEG-ATE presented a petition against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Sir R. H. INGLIS presented several petitions to the same effect. MURDER OF ENGLISHMEN NEAR CANTON. Dr. BOWRING, seeing the Noble Lord the Se cretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to ask him whether he had received any official informa tion o f certa i n outra g es, ending in murder, which had been comm i tted on several Englishmen in the neigh bourhood of Canton ? Lord P A.LAIERSTON replied that he had re ceived an official account of the unfortunate occur rence, and a steam-vessel had been sent up to the place where it h appened, whose commander had instructions to see that the perpetrators of the crime were brought to justice. Measures had also been taken for securing p ro t ect i on to the property and lives of her Majesty's British subjects residing in the neighbourhood of Canton. THE RATE PAYING CLAUSES. In answer to a question from an Hon. Member Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated t h at i t was 'not the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill this s 551011 to repeal the rate-paying clauses of the Reform Act. INCOME-TAX. Mr. Sheriff HILL appeared at the bar of the House, and presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council against the Go vernment proposal for increasing the income-tax. THE EIGHT MILLIONS LOAN. Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY wished to know from the Chancell o r o f th e E xc h equer , th e loan of eight mil lions of stock having produced in 1847 the sum of 7 , 9 63,6741, whether any and what portion of such o e rry was in th e E xc h equer, or was i n th e Ex lu er on th e I st d ay of January, 1848 • and whether there was any objection to place ' on LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1846. ing, nothing to do. If all these things were attended to, not only might the income-tax be left without in crease, but many taxes—the window tax, and the duties, for instance, which pressed heavily on the poor might be removed. On the grounds he had stated he asked the House not to agree to one item of the estimates until after the debate of Monday evening. The Hon. Member concluded by moving, " That it is expedient that the expenditure of the country should be reduced, not only to render an increase of taxation in this session unnecessary, but that the expenditure should be further reduced as speedily as possible, to admit of a reduction of the present large amount of taxation." Mr. WARD said, that as his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had thrown a large portion of blame on the naval estimates, and as he (Mr. Ward) had not had an opportunity of making a statement to the House on be half of the naval department, perhaps he could not take a better one than the present for calling the attention of the House to a few circumstances bearing on the ques tion. What he wished to put to the House was this : There had been great additions to the estimates; no doubt, during the last ten years, without a single divi sion against any increased expenditure —(Hear, hear.) His lion. Friend was in his place when he (Mr. Ward) announced the intention of Government to add 1,500 to the marine force. They were voted last year without a dissentient voice or a division ; and it was only when they came to pay the bill that faults were found with the amount of the naval expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he made every allowance for the altered position of the country, and the distress prevailing in the great mercan tile community, and he knew that great pressure was exercised on such Members of that House as repre sented large constituencies. But he contended that good reasons could be given for the increase in the naval esti mates, and that the country had had good value for the money expanded.—(Hear, hear.) He was prepared to say that when the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth commenced that large expendi ture which the present Government were only following up, he w is consulting the real interests and safety of the country.—(Hear, hear.) He would now call the attention.of the House to the three principal votes in the naval estimates. For works in 1835, the sum ex pended was 62,440 Z That vote bad been increasing annually; it was in 1843-44, 214,0001.; in 1844.45, 298,0001.; in 1845-46, 486,0001.; in 1846-47, 527,610/.; and in 1847-48, the present vote, it had increased to 668,0001., showing an apparent addition of 140,0001. He said an apparent addition, because the whole of the new works were included in one vote instead of being spread over four, as had previously been the practice.—(Hear, hear.) The item of stores had increased in an equal proportion. From 426,0001 in 1835.36 they bad increased to 1,511,0001. during the present year, and dockyard works precisely in the same ratio. The reason of all this was that during the last few years a new power had come into existence, for which this country was bound to provide, not only by substituting steam-vessels for sailing vessels, but by building docks and factories where such works could be carried on—those splendid establishments which the Right Hon. Baronet had commenced, and the present Government had completed with the consent and appro bation of the House of Commons.— (Hear.) The country had paid for steam machinery alone 2,689,0001., which, with stores, accounted for three and a half millions at once. The dockyards, which, in 1835 were in a state of destitution, had been renovated until no more magnifi cent establishments could now be found in any part of the world.—(Hear.) We had magnificent steam facto ries, besides steam basins at Portsmouth and Devonport, all of which he maintained. were necessary to the existence of such a steam navy as was imperatively required by such a country as this, on the principle that every country should look to its own interest and its own safety. That was what the present Government had done. It was felt that it would be most perilous to be without a steam navy in the possible contingency of a rupture with any foreign country. Neither could proper places for repair of crippled vessels be dispensed with, nor had .they been complained of; until now that thy Heuse was called upon to pay the bill.—(Elear, hear.) Now, instead of treating the matter as any railway company would have treated it, that was to say, as on investment of capital, the House merely !stoked upon it as an increase in the votes. He contended that it was merely so much money capitalised. Taking out what was necessary for the repairs of dockyards, there was half a million invested in great national establishments. Neither were these confined to this country. We had a large establishment at Malta, where the steamers ceuld be repaired, instead of being sent home for that purpose. This was a measure which would result in great economy of money.—(Hear, hear.) He repeated, then, that this country had . reopkved vahie for:the money which had been expend e d. If it could be shown that these establishments were unnecessrry, that England would have been secure without following the same course as other powers in substituting a steam for a sailing navy, then there might be good grounds for impeachment. But the fact was, that for ten years the House had regarded this and similar expenditure as absolutely necessary for the security of the country, and not only that, but there had been constant cries for bar hours of refuge and all sorts of demands on the part of Hon. Members. Now, however, when the bill came to be paid, every one found fault with the expense.—(Hear, hear.) He asked the House whether they had not had value for their money? They had new and splendid works, which, being finished, would cease to be an item of expense; and he hoped the time would soon come when demands for them would cease on the part of the Government. He would for a moment call the attention of the House to the past and present cult dition of our steam navy. In 1635 we had 23 small steam-vessels employed as packets or as dockyard lighters, and propelled by 4,153 horse-power. In 1841, when the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth carne into • power, we had 55 steamers of 9,503 horse power; and on the Ist of January, 1848, we had 134 steam-vessels, some as fine as any in the world, and of 35,565 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) That was a list which he was nut ashamed to-lay before the House, as a mode of accounting for increased expenditure. The Hone Member forsMontrose bad first taken the estimates for 1835,.- and compared them with those of the present year; complaining , that an increase was proposed of 7,622,0001. g ( llf x . Ward) had analysed them and had endeavoured to arrive at a distinct conclusion respecting them. The 610 item he found bad not existed in 1835, bat for the si,ke of the great commer cial interests of the country had been since adopted. Government had organized a complete system of packets, which- were included in the Adnairaity estimates, although properly thes&eimiralty had nothing to do with them, being simply administrators of the will of that House. — (Hear.) The vote for the contract packets was 611,6624 and the double line of packets to New York had caused - an increase of 46,000/4 add to- this 61,698/. paid to Queen's vessels employed as packets, and the packets from Holyhead to Dublin, which would soon commence running, and there would be a total of 773.0001. for the contract service. There were besides 181,000 L which, though charged to the navy, properly belonged to the army and ordnance. Then there was for troop ships, wages, &c., 25,5251., and 11,000/. for victualling the convict department, for which his Right Hon. Frie.od the Secretary for the Home Department was properly responsible.—(Hear, hear.) These, with one or two other items for provisions in other depart ments, would make a deduction of 1,057,000/. from the seven millions and a. half: - But,-besides all that there was the dead weight over which the Admiralty had no control, and which had been added to repeatedly at the suggestion of the House. They could not resist the appeals of old officers; but, when the sums were put down in the estimates, then fault was found with the Government. So it was, how ever, that with the help of the House the dead weight had amounted to 1,395,072/. Take this, arid the vote for works, which he contended should be looked upon as permanent investments, take off 100,0001. from the rote of the present year for repairs of dockyards, and the vote for permanent works 588,6011, and there would be at once a deduction of 3,041.0001. from the effective naval estimates of the year, leaving a total amount of effective naval expenditure of 4,685,1271., instead of 7,000,000L — (Hear hear.) There had been in the establishment of the steam navy, much expense incurred in experiments. Mistakes had been committed, and knowledge had been bought by experience. The more enthusiasm in science, the more likelihood of making mistakes. It was impos sible to perfect any system without mistakes; and our system was rapidly approaching perfection. Under these circumstances he entreated the House to take a fairer view of the public expenditure, and to think that its increase was for the national benefit.—(Hear, hear.) He entreated them to believe that there was something more rational in it than his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had represented; and that for all that had been spent the country had received valuable con sideration.—(Cheers.) Mr. OSBORNE hoped that the House would net be led away by the eloquent speech of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield to imagine that they were merely engaged in a debate on the naval estimates. The Hon. Member, in his able statement, had rather forestalled the tabours of the Select Committee, for if Government was so satisfied with the present enormous expenditure, why refer the matter to a Select Committee at all ? He was convinced that no other Minister would have conde scended to take such a course. The Hon. Member had exulted in the number of our steamers and their great superiority, but he (Mr. Osborne) had been informed by men acquainted with the subject that our steam-vessels were exceedingly ill-constructed and not at all calculated for the purpose intended.—(Hear, hear.) But his object in rising was not to criticise the conduct of the Ad miralty, but to review, as well as he was able, the whole system of government in this country.—(Laughter.) He ibjected to the course taken by the Government in re ferring the estimates to a Select Committee. He als o objected to the increase of the income-tax, which, on its ariginal imposition, was -described by Mr. Tierney Its a system of indiscriminate rapine. —(Hear.) But it was he common practice of the Whigs to rail at taxes when in opposition, and to double them when they got into power.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the I Government' had made his first exposé of his financial Jolley in a clear and unsatisfactory speech. There was I. no mistake about it. But being very badly received, his -Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had , litne down on the following Monday to make an apo '"gy. He could not, notwithstanding the Right Hon. Gentleman's eloquence, consent to send the estimates to s Select Com m itt ee . As to t he he lie f T e e a d rs th o a f t in th v e a s si e on fee o r n s vhich they w ere f oun d e d, he were rapidly abating. The Earl of Ellesmere's letter sad alarmed several old ladies, and their alarm had been .nereased by seeing the private secretary of the Prime Minist e r gaze tt e d to a lieutenancy in the Middle -ex militia.—(A laugh.) He feared that the whole system of government at present carried on was cal (mlated unnaturally to increase the national expenditure. Che system pursued by the Colonial-office perhaps more than any other required examination. The letermination of the people was that there should be cheaper government. It was his opinion that the ex penditure of the country might be reduced at least 5,000,000 or 6,000,000/ a year, without impairing the fficiency of the public establishments. The appoint ment if the propene Committee, however, etas a mer shelving of the question. lie entreated the Noble Leed to pause before he insisted on pressing his proposition of in increased income-tax. The country had reached the utmost limits of peace taxation.—(Hear. hear.) Let the Government take a lesson from what was passing around them. Let them take warning by what was taking place on the Continent—where the opposition to the popular feeling in the prevention of a dinner had involved the destruction of a dynasty. The best national lefetices were to be found in the hearts and affections of the middle class, the best mode of obtaining which was not the imposition of a war-tax in time of peace. Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was not prepared to admit that there was any necessity for increasing the income-tax, though he considered that a well regulated property tax was the fairest that coal be imposed. It appeared to him an extraordinary course to appoint a Committee to examine into the expenditure of the country, and, pending the inquiry, to propose an increase to the bur dens of the country, before it was known whether the maintenance of the public establishments rendered such increase necessary.—(Hear, hear.) His opinion was, that a considerable reduction might be made in those establishments without injury to tke public service. He concurred with the Honourable Member for Manchester that there was no necessity for keeping a British fleet in the Tagus. Then, with regard to the Kafir war, it was unreasonable to ask the House at once to vote upwards of 1,000,000/. upon the faith of statements only placed in the hands of Honourable Members that day, and which they had had no opportunity of examining. —(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But the expenditure under this head had been going on, it appeared, for two years. Why was not the subject brought under notice during the last session? By a strict exercise of economy in all the public departments, he had no doubt that the estimates might be reduced by three millions, and that there would be no necessity for increased taxation. —(Heir.) Our position with regard to France it ap peared was made a plea for increased expenditure. The true interest of this country was to maintain the best understanding with France. In this respect he believed the policy of the Noble Lord (Palmerston), in 1840 and 1841 had been attended with unfortunate results—it had engendered distrust, and induced France to increase her military establishment, which increase was made the ground for adding to our own military expenditure. It was not only for the mutual interest of the two countries themselves, but of Europe and the world, that England and France should be on good terms.—(Hear.) Had there been a good understanding between England and France at the time, it was his conviction that the absorp tion of Cracow by Austria would never have taken place. —(Hear, bear.) The occupation of Circassia by Russia, and the success of the designs of Russia against Turkey, might in the same way have bees prevented. Though there was no danger of foreign invasion, there was in the discontent of the Irish people, a source of danger which no increase in the estimates could obviate. Give Ire land her own Parliament, and no fbreign power would dare to put their foot in that country. At this moment the people of Ireland apprehended you (said the Hon. Member) more than they do the French. You have treated them as enemies, and by your tyranny and bad government you have made them such. Let them look back to the history of the country—England had never been strong unless she had Ireland with her—and it was fear only, and not a sense of justice, that had in duced her to grant any concessions to that country. He called upon Ministers to say how the poor of Ireland were to be supported during the ensuing spring. The poor-law would be wholly insufficient for the purpose. In many districts it would absorb the whole of the pro perty. It was the duty of the Government to take measures for preserving the people of Ireland from star station, and he called upon them to state what measure, if any, they were prepared to propose for that purpose. The lion. Member concluded by declaring that his best assistance should be given to any effort to reduce the expenditure of the country. Lord J. RUSSELL could scarcely understand the purpose of the Hon. Gentleman who advocated this motion.—The Hon. Member for Montrose thought it a matter of reproach against the Government that they had not, some time ago, appointed . a Committee to ex amine into the expenditure, of the country. The Hon. Member for Middlesex, on the other hand, thought it a matter of reproach that it should be appointed_ now, holding it to be an abdication of the functions of the Government. Then, again, the Hon. Member for Limerick had told them that he was prepared to resist tiny increase of taxation, but called on Government, at the same time, to propose some large grant of money for the purpose of relieving Irish destitution, leaving Ministers to get out of the difficulty as they might. He was at a lose, therefore, to understand the purpose of the pre sent discussion. Great fault had been found in the course of thest - debates with the • speech with which he had introduced the budget, but it was curious enough that not one of the propositions he had then laid down had been controverted. He had said it was the interest of this country to keep on good terms with France. No one had controverted that proposition, or had disputed that it was to our interest to remain at peace. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex, who had not disputed his figures, had found fault that he had stated them with sangfroid. He (Lord J. Russell) was not aware that he had done so. He had stated the figures, and the Hon. Member had not denied their accuracy ; but he com plained that he had not made his statement with that amount of passion and enthusiasm which, in the Hon. Member's opinion, should have accompanied it. The Hon. Member wished to know for what purpose the increase is the estimates was made. The Hon. Gentle man should remember that there were many persons in this country who were of a different opinion from himself, and who complained that our establishments had not been sufficiently increased ; that our navy was at too low a scale ; that our army was insufficient to meet any sudden contingencies that might occur ; that the ordnance was not suffi ciently cared for, and that altogether our establish ments were not in that state of efficiency in which they ought to be. To meet this charge, he had thought it pro per to show what had been done, and what expendi ture had actually been incurred, to make those esta blishments effective, and to show, also, that it was not necessary to increase them beyond what he had stated. The Hon. Member for Middlesex, it would seem, was himself one of those who was not long since of opinion that cur national defences were insufficient, for before Christmas be, placed 'a notice on • the paper, of a motion to call the attention of the House to the state of those defences—(Cheers and laughter)--showing that, in his view, some addition was required.—(" No," from Mr. Osborne.) Perhaps the lion. Member merely intended to make a speech, to prove that enough had been done ; but, if so, the notion was rather an extraordinary ono. —(Hear, hear) And he (Lord John Russell) had been told that many of the Honourable Gentleman's consti tuents took alarm at that notice, and wrote to him remonstrating . aga i nst w h at t h ey t h oug h t hi s pro j ect of increasing the armament of the country. — (Mr. Osborne, " No.") The Honourable Member had, however, it appeared, concealed his real purpose till now, and it was found that he had no such intention as that attributed to him.—(" Hear," and a laugh.) He (Lord John Russell) must say, however, that the ambiguity of the Hon. Member's motion was to some xt.nt the cause o f his considering it necessary to ex piate to the House the means of defence we had, es com pared with those of that country with whom some per sons here, and others abroad, had, without meaning, any offence, thought it possible that a war might ensue. The Hon. Member for Middlesex thought Government pro posed to deleg a t e to a C omm i ttee that respons i b i l i ty which properly rested with the Ministry as to the num ber of men to be voted for the army and navy. In that respect the Hon. Gentleman was mistaken. He believed this Committee, like those which had been appointed from time to time, and formerly were appointed about every ten years to go through the details of expenditure, would be attended with useful results as satisfying the country that that expenditure was actually and properly incurred, and in other respects as eliciting suggestions for future economy. But, as regarded the number of men proposed for the great establishments—the army and navy—the Gouernment was responsible, and he trusted to be able to defend the votes for the army and ordnance as effectually as his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty had defended that for the nary.—(Hear, hear.) At all events, he should not fear to encounter the discussion upon those votes, or to stand by them. The Honourable Member for Limerick had, however, referred to another and a different sub ject. In asking the House to deal with the condition of the people of Ireland, the Honourable Member had re ceived in a very ill spirit that which was, perhaps, the greatest effort ever made by any country on behalf of a part of its population.—(Hear, hear.) That effort was not the doing of the Government—it was not the bene volence or philanthropy of Government—but it was the act of Parliament, and the House of Commons espe cially, who, in the most generous manner, voted the money necessary for averting the consequences of that famine with - which - Ireland was afflicted, which money was spent in what seemed, at the time, to be the most economical and effectual manner, in giving food directly in rations to three millions of people.—(Hear, hear.) And yet the Honourable Member talked of the demo ralising effect of giving this relief to people who might else have starred, and for which he believed the people of Ireland themselves were grateful.—(Hear, hear.) But while this was doing, while England and Scotland were thus coming to the relief of their brethren in Ireland, what was the conduct of the Hon. Gentleman ? ing t—o —([lean, h.) diWstrhuastt w a a n s d h e d i d s doing e t o u n t e a n m d e o a n v g o s u t r fellow-countrymen ?—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Mem ber had asked whether Parliament would interfere to prevent the evils of famine during the spring, alleging that the poor-law was wholly insufficient, and that it would be inoperative. He (Lord J. Rus,!ll) could not agree that a rate of 35., 49., or even ss. in the pound ought to deter the proprietors of property in Ireland from supporting destitution when necessary. But he was aware that the law had not been everywhere fairly er j 'say applied. He was reading that day an extract from an Irish . paper of an exam i nat i on .t h at took place in a court of justice, in which a man was charged with stealing a sheep f rom a f armer, who i t appeared was himself receiving out-door relief, though possessed of twenty sheep, three or four cows, and a good store of barley in his haggard, while the accused, who lived in the same parish, had been refused relief, though he and his family were reduced to such a state of starvation that they were discovered eating the stolen sheep in its raw state. He said while such a state of things existed—while persons who were in comparatively good circumstances were receiving that relief which ought to be given to the destitute, and those who had the means of contributing to the rate re fused to do so, it was most unjust to call upon the people of Middlesex or Berks, who had paid their rates and who provided for their own poor, to pay an additional tax for the relief of Irish - destitution.--(Hear, hear.) The tax for that purpose must bo enforced from the Irish pro prietors themselves, and to that tax Ireland must look ;or the support of its destitute poor.—(Cheers.) It was i•: very cxecptio* , .ubl, ea-es—eve/J(2le the property u the country did not afford the means for the relief of the destitute—that public or private charity could bo called upon to supply its place.—(Hear, hear.) And let him say one thing more. Her Majesty was some time ago advised by a person whose memory he should long regard with reverence, the late Archbishop of Canterbury, as it was expected that much distress would occur in Ireland this year, to issue a Queen's letter for a collection in the several churches in this country. That collection it was well known, had not been so successful as the collec tion of last year, or anything like it. Some 26,0001. had been collected, which was now being divided in various unions in Ireland for the relief of children, for schools, and other relief purposes. But why was not the amount collected greater? Because those who had last year contributed to the extent of 300,0001. or 400,000/ had met with nothing but invective and insult in return, and they were disgusted and disheartened at being held out to the world as hard-hearted and as enemies to the Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) He begged the Hon. Gentleman, and others who had taken the same course, to take some warning—to learn a lesson from these two facts.—(Hear, hear.) From the first, that there was no indisposition on the part of the English people to relieve their Irish fellow-subjects when in distress; and from the second example let him learn that violent invective and passionate harangues, and libels upon the English people, was not the way to improve the relations between the two countries .—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman having raised this question, he (Lord J. Russell) had thought it necessary to say thus much. He could assure the Hon , Gentleman, however, that Government was not unmindful of Ireland—they looked day by day to the condition of that country—there was not a single day in which the reports from Ireland did not attract his attention and that of ids colleagues, and they had shown their readiness to incur some obloquy, by not proposing a tax for Ireland which they thought she was not in a condition to bear, at the same time that she was paying a tax to the ex tent of two millions a year to relieve her poor. But Go vernment did consider that by obliging Ireland, from her property, to support her destitution, by encouraging the people to exert themselves, and the men of property to draw from the soil that increase of produce which might be drawn from it almost without limit—they were doing that which was far better than repeating every year (which was not a year of signal calamity) the large and liberal contribution which they thought had been rightly given last year, though, perhaps, it had not been so well administered as it might have been; and it no similar grant was proposed this year, it was not from indiffer enea to the wants of the people of Ireland, but from a confidence that the course which we were pursuing was that which would tend most to the permanent happiness and welfare of that ceuntry.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. F. O'CONNOR condemned the estimates gene rally as excessive. The increased income• tax would be the means of uniting, for the first time for many years, the middle and the lower classes against the Govern ment. He objected to the manner in which Ireland was made use of by Irish Members in that House. Telling the Government, as the Hon. Member for Lincoln told them, that if they did ilistiee to Ireland they had only to whistle in order to have 200,000 men in defence of this country, was only part of the system which had debased and destroyed the Irish mines. —(Hear, hear.) He contended that Ireland would not be in the condition she now was, of depending upon the begging letter of the Archbishop, if past Governments of England had done their duty towards her. Mr. WAKLEY conceived that the motion of the Hon. Member fur Montrose, to which he begged to recal the attention of the House, was the most rational and con sistent motion that could be made under existing circumstances ; for if the House were to go on voting money as they had hitherto done, putting no check upon expenditure, this country would Tory soon be involved in a state of universal ruin. He keenly felt the force of the lecture of the lion. Secretary of the Admiralty. Upon him (Mr. Wakley) at least that lecture should not be lost. The Honourable Gentleman had told them that in• crease after increase had taken place without any re sistance on the part of the House, and without a single division. But henceforth he (Mr. %Valtley) would adopt a course of conduct that would not subject him to such a taunt as that. He was sure that Ministers declined to profit by the generosity of the House, and that the time had arrived when resistance must be offered to a pro fligate and extravagant expenditure of the public money. lie considered that, in the present instance, the Govern ment were much to blame for not having examined more closely into the finances of the country, and proposed those reductions which the circumstances of the people so much required. The Secretary of the Admiralty would not deny that it was proposed to fix the army, navy, and ordnance estimates at between 17,000,0001. and 18,000,0001. ; but that was an expenditure which was not shown to be warranted by any circumstance now existing. The motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose was, therefore, called for by the facts of the case. Insinu ations were often thrown out against the Radical party in that House. But he asked whether the leader of that party (Mr. Hume) had not done more for the people than the whole aristocracy of the country?—(llear, hear.) The aristocracy were extremely active when dealing with the national funds, but had never yet shown a disposition to economise them. A Noble Lord had been appointed Secretary to the Poor-law Commission, but as long as such appointments were made so long must the people be content with extravagant expenditure. He felt great gratitude to the iskple Lord at the head of the Govern. ment for his JeWiiff Disabilities Bill, and other mea sures; but when he saw his Government proposine such extravagant expenditure he could no:longer offer him his support. In fact, he thought that the Radical party in that House ought to establish themselves as a party, and that the Hon.' Member fur Montrose ought that very night to be installed as leader of it. If a Noble Lord had exhibited the amount of ability and knowledge displayed by his Hon. Friend he would be idolised by his party ; he therefore trusted that all those who called themselves Radicals would combine and give to his Hon. Friend that support which his new situation would entitle him to, and to whom it could not but be gratifying to know that his labours were fully appreciated, not only in that House, but by the milliens out of it.— (Hear, hear.) He trusted his Hon. Friend would persist in the motion he had made that evening, and induce the Ministry to come forward:with a remodelled budget. He should like to know what would have been the proposal of the Noble Lord if the country was in a prosperous state, seeing that he had nu better than a war expenditure to propose in its present depressed state. But he must say, in justice to the Government, that Hon. Members in that House were infinitely much more to blame for the reckless manlier in which they had hitherto voted away the public money. For his part, he would sit there, and oppose vote after vote upon the principles of economy, retrench ment, and peace. Mr. ROBINSON said, it was an absolute delusion to vote for this motion until the means of meking good the deficiency in the revenue were pointed out, and he cer tainly would be no party to it.—[ While the Hon. Mem ber was speaking, Lord Ebrington handed an evening paper to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, containing intelligence which rapidly spread through the House, and created evident excitement for several minutes.] Mr. FAGAN (Cprk) would vote for the motion of the Honourable Member for Montrose, believing that if the public expenditure were not now reduced, Ireland would soon be subjected to the income-tax. Mr. S. CRAWFORD also declared his intention to support the motion, conceiving that they ought not to vote away the public money until the grounds upon which they were called upon to do so were fully under stood. Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, while he concurred in the panegyric bestowed upon the Hon. Member for Montrose, could not agree in the reasons adduced for supporting his motion. It w as argue d th a t the estimates about to be submitted entailed great future expenditure, but if the House would consent to go into Committee he shouldibe able to show that they were es timates of money actually spent. He was as anxious as any one in that House to reduce the public expenditure, and he would not submit those estimates to the House if he did not believe them to be necessary for the public service. They had agreed to refer the whole question o f expenditure to two Committees, to see whether any reduction could be made; the Hon. Member for Mon trose was a member of one of those Committees, and he therefore thought it rather extraordinary that he should prejudge the decision of that Committee by his present motion. The house divided— For going into Committee Against the Committee 59 Majority —9B On our admission into the gallery we found the House resolved into a Committee of SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to move a vote of 1,100,0001. to defray the expenses of the Kafir war. The Right Hon. Gentleman (as far as he could be heard) took a review of the grounds upon which the hostilities with the Kafir tribes arose in the year 1836, and which were continued until the s ear 1846. The intelligence which reached the Govern inent did not arrive until the summer of that year, and it was soon after the accession of the preseat Govern ment into office that the state of affairs at the Cape demanded their immediate attention. The intelligence received was that the Burgher Guard had been dismissed to their own homes. The country was in a state of diffi culty and revolt when Sir H. Pottinger arrived, who, as Governor-General, adopted Daeasures which were essen tial for the peace of the colony, and which were, at the same time, not the mere results of caprice. He (the Chancel* of the Exchequer) would not on this occasion go into details, but he would observe that he believed that by the proceedings taken, the Chinese coffers had been reduced, while those of England had been augmented. On the acquisition of office by the present Government they had telt that the expenses of this war ought to be defrayed out of the colonial treasury. This expectation had unhappily not been realised, though he believed the first efforts of the new Governor, Sir Henry Yottinger, had been directed to that object. The pre sent vote was asked in order to curry out preceding engagements, and the vote was justified by the docu ments now on the table of the house.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME contended that the House ought to have had in its possession the entire accounts upon which the vote proposed was founded, and he maintained that the House ought to pause before it acquiesced in the state ments which had been made in support of the motion. Whatever might be the tenor of the dispatches of Sir Peregrine Maitland, or any other governor, still he con tended that the British Legislature had not merely the right, but the duty, to inquire into the affairs of the colony by whomsoever those affairs might be adminis tered. Inquiry was necessary in order to get rid of the imputations which had been cast out. At all events, the House was not supplied with the information upon which the vote could be justified ; and he therefore ' should move that the Chairman report progress and ask leay. , to sit again.—(Hear.) ,ords of explanation betwe(n the atAti- CELLOII of the EXCUERUER and Mr. Hume, Mr. V. SMITH supported the amendment proposed, on the ground that sufficient information as to the origin Hof the Kafir warlhad not been known to the Legislature. He highly approved of Earl Grey's instructions to Sir Li. Pottinger; they were very valuable for the future, to which we must now look. Unless the House were pre pared to vote a much larger income-tax than had been prop.ee. they must take into consideration the reduction of our colonial expenditure.—(He9r.) Mr. BANKES was decidedly of opinion that the vote ought not to be granted at the present moment. A Com mittee was to be nominated before the rising of the House to inquire into the navy, army, and ordnance expenditure; and this item might form a very proper subject Er the inquiries of that Committee. He would, therefore, support the motion of the Honourable Mem ber for Montrose. If the matter did not come within the consideration of the Committee alluded to he himself would move a special Committee for the purpose. The colony of the Cape of Good Hope was a source of enormous expense in every department, and brought little er no return. It might be a question whether it was worth retaining it at all, but certainly not at such an expense as this.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Bsnkes) was nominated on the Committee proposed by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the army, navy, and ordnance estimates; and he would not imitate the example of the lion. Member for Montrose by pledg ing himself beforehand to &certain view, but would enter the Committee unbiassed, with a desire to effect reduc tion wherever it was practicable.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. W. MILES said he had understood from the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the public service required this vote to be immediately adopted. The country certainly ought to pay its debts, and then let a Committee of Inquiry investigate the mutter afterwards, if that were thought desirable. Had the Governor not done all in his power to prevent the plunder and bloodshed which had been inflicted on the colonists, he would have been unworthy of the situation he held.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced in the opportunity of bearing testimony to the character of the Governor. Never had either a more gallant soldier or a more humane and conscientious man been placed in charge of any colony.—( Hear, hear.) The charges against Sir P. Maitland had arisen not from his rushing precipitately into the war, but from his unwillingness to involve the country in such a contest.—(Hear, hear.) Understand ing that the public convenience required this vote to be granted, he should support it; but its adoption would not preclude further inquiry. We might well begin to reflect how large a portion of the world's surface we had now rendered ourselves responsible for; we were keenly reminded of it by the vote now proposed, amounting to 1,100,0001.; and this sum would probably be followed by others in succeeding years. Looking to the fuihre, he feare'l, unless some great change of system could be devised, that we might expect the recurrence of wars'ip that remote colony. Sir P. Maitland had expressed similar belief in one of his dispatches. •He feared the change adopted twelve or fourteen years ago had in creased the cost of the colony to this country; but that change had been adopted from the most philanthropic motives. The payment of this money would not be in vain if it led the House to reflect well on the policy of extending our coloni a l em pi re .—(H ear .) Mr. E. ELLICE said he would not object to the vote, but would impress on the House the importance of not longer treating these colonial matters lightiv.—(Hear.) He differed with the Hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. V. Smith) as to the possibility of temporising with the natives; it was essential that wherever we planted our industry we should protect it, and do it in a manner worthy the dignity of a great nation. There was ano ther suggestion he wished to offer. Why had not the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he knew of this war proceeding, come down to the House at an earlier period and asked for a vote? He ought to have made the best estimate he could, and then the com- Pa lirt would not have arisen th a t th e House was 'unex pectedly called on to vote a large sum, .of the expen diture of which they had nev e r before heard.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the vote before the House, he would not oppose it, because the Government were not accountable for the war, and because the public service would suffer if funds were not provided. Mr. G. THOMPSON did not think that they ought to be called on to vote 1,100,0001. without knowing anything respecting the origin, progress, policy, or cha racter of this war. The House ought to be allowed time to read the papers that would be put into the hands of Members to-morrow. Mr. AGLIONBY'saw no reason for postponing the ♦ote. It was the duty of the Government to protect the settlers from the savages and murderers in their colonies. The whole of this war had arisen because the late Government, yielding to a vicious influence ill the Colonial-office, had set aside the recommendations of Sir B. D'Urban. In the dispatch which Sir H. Pot tinger sent home he declared, in answer to the petition of the settlers, that they were blameless in what had occurred. Lord DUNCAN thought they should be allowed time to read the papers before they were called on to vote so large a sum of money. Alderman SIDNEY thought the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose rational and consistent. They should not be called upon to vote money in a matter of which they knew nothing. Mr. HINDLEY said that he had been informed in last September, by a gentleman who had come from the Cape, that the war was an excellent thing for th e C ape, because it caused the expenditure of a large sum of money. That House ought to have some control over the expenditure of money. It was not right to spend money without the sanction of the House, and then come to it and say the money has base expended, and you have nothing to do but to pay. Atter a few words from Mr. HLTME The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For the motion 262 Against it Majority for the motion NAVY SUPPLIES. Mr. WARD then moved a vote of 245,410 L 19s. td. for the navy excess in 1846. The Hon. Gentleman said he had already explained the importance of this vote. He said that the Admiralty had made complete ar rangements whereby no sum would be expended in future that did not come within the estimates for the current year, nor would any works be entered upon in any dockyard without the previous cognisance of the House. The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding with his details in an inaudible tone, when Mr. ELLIOT rose, and called the Hon. Member for Sunderland to order, as his voic e d rowne d t h at o f t h e Hon. Secretary for thei Admiralty. After some further conversation, Mr. HUDSON rose, and repudiated the idea that he had interrupted the Hon. Member in his statement. He had been most uncourteously interrupted by the Hon. Member, whose name he did - not know, and whom he never wished to know. Mr. ELLIOT disclaimed any intention of behaving uncourteously to the Hon. Member, but his voice had certainly prevented him from hearing the statement of the Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty. Mr. T. F. BARING said that the vote was a very im portant one, and he could not let it pass without some observation. Last year there was a naval excess of 165,000/. on a form vote. He had made some obser vutions at the time, but, as all economical observations were in the last llouse of Commons, it was " pooh pooh'd."—(A laugh.) This year there was a further excess of 240,000/.; and he thought it a course that should be arrested. He confessed he was rather struck with the loose mode of transacting business which seemed to prevail in the Admiralty with respect to arrears.—(Hear, hear.) However, after the candid con fession of his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admi ralty, and his promise that such things should not occur again, he did not feel it incumbent on him to make any further observation. The vote was then agreed to, the Chairman reported progress, and the House resumed. - LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved the second reading of the Landed Property (Ireland) Bill. The object of the Bill was to enable landed proprietors in Ireland to borrow money for the improvement of their land from indivi duals, on the same terms as the Act of last year autho rised them to borrow it from the public. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not oppose the present stage of the Bill, but reserved his opinion as to the future stages, until he had received a communication from tho Board of Works in Ireland. The Bill was then read a second time. TREATY OF ADRIANOPLE, &c.—ADJOURNED DEBATE: Mr. ANSTEY said he had received a communication from the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, to the effect that he would not be able to fix an earlier day for the adjourned debate on his (Mr. Anstey's) motion than Wednesday next; and, although he feared there would be little chance of its conclusion, he would, in compliance with the Noble Lord's wish, postpone it to that date. The order was then postponed. ELECTION PETITIONS. The SPEAKER informed the House that he had. iv ceived letters from the agents to the petitions ak a i nst the returns for Colchester and North Stafford, stating that it was not their intention to proceed with the said petitions. SELECT COMMITTEES ON THE ESTIMATES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER post poned until Tuesday next the nomination of the Com mittees on the navy and miscellaneous estimates. LAND-TAX. Mr. WAKLEY moved that the petition of G. L. Hutchinson, relative to the land-tax, be printed with the votes. Messrs. THORNELY and BROTHERTON severally op posed the printing of the petition, on the ground that the petitioner merely sought to print his views on the land tax at the expense of the public. Mr. WAKLEY persisted in his motion, and the House divided, when forty Members not being present, the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock. BIRTHS. On the 24th inst., at Great Ilford, Essex, the wife of R. 11. George, Esq., of a son. On the 24th inst., Mrs. Alexander Chirol, of a. son. 011 the 24th inst., at Portland-place, Clapton a Mrs. Lewis Worms. of a daughter. DIED. On the 2d inst., at Palermo, W. A. Home, youngest eon of the late Sir E. Home, Bart. On the 15th inst., at Harby Rectory, Leicestershire, Eliza Georgians, the wife of the Rev. W. E. llartopp. On the 16th inst., in her 90th year, Mrs. R. Welch, of Ilackney•road. London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG. 9.1.- No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Oiliee, No. ',12 Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, is the county Gi Middlesex, Satarday, February 26, Is4s. «.~'~~ ~. IN W I I