The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-19 00:00:00

THE SUN; them; and that if they ♦oted the estimates we propostA, some increase of taxation would be necessary. We therefore submit to the House at once, that question which may be the most difficult, and the most unpopular, but which we are bound to look in the face as affecting not only the public purse, but the independence and honour of the country as well. This House has been enabled to take off nearly 40,000.000/. of taxes, of which more than 10,000,0001. pressed upon the comforts and enjoyments of the industrious portion of the community. But while doing that, you were also enabled not only to preserve the empire undiminished, but to extend it. Consistently with that large reduction, you have been enabled, under the guidance of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, to give scope to those principles of commerce of which Adam Smith was the great propounder, and of which William Pitt, in the plenitude of his power, declared himself the disciple. You have been enabled to suppress an insurrection in Canada, to repel an aggression in India, to maintain your colonial :establishment and give protection to your fellow-subjects at the Cape of Good Hope.— subjects of the same sovereign, and inheritors of the same glorious constitution as members of the British empire. I believe that, if you continue in this course, upholding the credit of the country, you will be enabled in future years to give still further relief to the people by a reduction of taxation. I regret it is not in my power honestly to propose such reduction at present; but, consistently with my duty to the country, I cannot do so. I hare taken, lam aware, that which is the odious part of a duty, but which being a duty I cannot shrink Irom. I will conclude by stating my strong conviction to be that, by taking th.s course, you will in time see the commercial credit of the country restored, you will preserve unimpaired the public faith, and run no danger of seeing this great empire insulted or injured by any power whatsoever.—(Loud cheese.) 'The Noble Lord concluded by proposing resolutions, with a view of carrying into effect the plan described in hie speech. The resolutions having been read by the Chairman, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he had proposed the resolutions with a view to laying them before the House; and it was his intention to propose, on Monday ee'linight, that the House go into Committee, in order that the sense of the House might be taken upon them. Mr. HUME had never listened to a Budget with more pain than on the present occasion; and he could assure the Noble Lord that he and his colleagues saw the country in a very different point of view from that which presented itself to him (Mr. Hume). The Noble Lord seemed to think that we were on the eve of a war, and that we should make preparations necessary for such a state of things. If we were so, he believed that but one feeling would exist in the country in reference to the course that House ought to pursue ; but as we were not, he believed that the course proposed by the Noble Lord was calculated to interrupt the peace which at present existed, and to create strife with that country which of all others it was the interest of this to be o❑ terms of amity with—he meant France. On that ac count, if for no other, he deplored the statement of the Noble Lord. He thought it most impolitic fora Minister of tho Crown to call the attention of that House to the forces of any one State, because it was placing it imme diately in view as a State against which ourlforces ought to be directed. The Noble Lord had told them that the great decrease in the revenue had arisen from general poverty, and the depressed state of commerce, and 3et without assigning one single reason he proposed an addition to the taxation of the country. Now he (Mr. Hume) would ask the House not to add one shilling to that taxation, but to make the present amount meet the expenditure. The Noble Lord was acting upon the principle, that in order to maintain peace we should ap• pear in arms. But at the present moment there was nothing to warrant or to call for such a step. The army and navy estimate had been increased since 1835, and when he demanded a decrease, he was told that circum stances connected with South America and the continent of Europe, and other matters, required to settle down first, but that the Government looked with confidence to an ulterior reduction. He did not know that it was the poliey of England to become a military nation. The idea that we were now in a time of peace keeping and maintaining 300,000 men, including the militia, the police force, and all paid adjuncts, was what this country could not and ought not to bear. If the Noble Lord bad said that he would reduce the window-tax, or any other tax that pressed upon the people, and that in lieu thereof he must have 5,000,000/. or 10,000,000/. additional of income-tax, he should have had his (Mr. Hume's) ready support; but this increased load of taxation, without any corresponding reduction, would, he was confident, have the effect of depressing the entire commercial community, masters, manufac turers, and men. He objected to any increase of the regular army, but still more to the enrolment of the militia, by which people would be unfitted for business and for domestic life—more particularly at a time of Peace, and when he saw so much poverty in the country, that even in the comparatively wealthy district of Mary. lebone no less than 15,000 people were receiving assist ance; and when, as he was informed that day, several mills in the manufacturing districts were about to be closed. Mr. BANKES believed that the country at large was not prepared for any such proposition as that of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had taken credit to him self for not having first proposed his estimates and after wards made his statement. But they were not so for getful of their duty in that House as to have admitted the estimates until they had had the explanation ; and having had that explanation, he must say that it was not satisfactory. The estimates relating to our national naval defences were those which were received with the least degree of jealousy ; but then there was an employ ment of the naval service going on at present, which ap peared to him and many others as unnecessary. By a different disposal of our naval forces some reduction, he thought, might be made in the national expenditure. lle alluded particularly to the squadron engaged on the coast of Africa, in a climate destructive of human life, and for a purpose which had totally failed. He conceived that the withdrawal of that squadron, and the cefsation of expenditure consequent thereon, would be attended with no detriment to the public service or to the interests of the country. He might allude also to the unhappy expedition to the Tagus and the squadron sta tioned there, keeping up a feeling of irritation in the mind of a foreign nation.—(An lion. Member : "They are all come home.") Then there was the less reason for increasing the expense by adding to our forces. They ought to have been ordered home long ago, and the Noble Lord and his colleagues owed to the service and the country some explanation of the reasons why they had so long remained there, utterly useless for any political object or purpose, sufferin all the evil effects of ships remaining long in har bour. One of these ships had, he believed, remained upwards of twelve months without having once weighed anchor. He therefore conceived that so far from there being a necessity for even the sToo.llest increase of the naval defences, the country might have had the satisfaction of believing it was in an effective state with regard to the national defences in that point to which all naturally directed their attention. With regard to the army, without at the present moment suggesting that any di minution cf an aggressive force might be proper after what had fallen from the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Bankes) 'night be permittei to state that a different disposition of that force might be made, by which the saving of the additional expenditure of which the Noble Lord bad spoken in reference to an increase of the army might be effected. It was no doubt to be admitted, that for the ordnance service a longer term of training was necessary than for the infantry and other branches of the service; but as related to the infantry they might reasonably look for a diminution, which might be turned to the ordnance department without any increase of expense. The Noble Lord's proposition with reference to the militia wee one which would be highly unpopular throughout the * country, though the Noble Lord had described it as as old constitutional force. That might be so, but it bad only been permitted when there was no standing army in existence. Lord J. RUSSELL—It existed in 1757. BANES—It had originated in the time of Charles 11.; and it was to avoid a standing army that the militia force had been established. Ile believed that the Earl of Chatham, to whom the Noble Lord had alluded, had recommended the militia as a force which prevented the necessity for maintaining a largo standing army. He had not iu his days a force of 60,000 men in this country, and therefore the times of Lord Chatham Were very different from those in which they all now lived. The present proposition, in his (Mr. Bankes) judgment, W:55 peculiarly alarming and well deserving the consideration of those who would come under the Operation of the law, because the Noble Lord had stated that the practice of finding substitutes had in former times been found to be incon venient, and that consequently the persons w ho would be ballotted would be obliged them selves to serve. If so, this would be a conscription in NY sense of the word as odious at that which existed ,La Fra nce un d er N apo l eon . He (Mr. B an kes) had hi mself served in the militia in the years 1810, 1811, and 18 12, and 800 men bad served with him with alacrity and cheerfulness ; but than the danger of an invasion I vas threatening this country. But now such a state of things did not exist, and therefore the proposition of the eNoble Lord would not be received with even patience by the nation. It was the cheerfulness and alacrity with which the people of this country had carried their Muskets which had produced an effect upon Napoleon in e speet to his threatened invasion, and formed the prin. , 'l,aleuotivewhich prevented him from putting his threats 1010 execution at the time he had formed his camp at Boulogne. lie (Mr. Bankes) assured the Noble Lord that the same spirit would not be wanting in this country if an occasion should require it to be exhibited ; and therefore, there was no need for the course he proposed. Such a force as he had spoken of, and in which he had served, could be raised in a few days. His regiment 111 fourteen days after it had been raised was reviewed by experienced officers, who declared them fit to serve with th e line, and that a finer body of men never was seen.— (Hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord need not mind the French newspapers, but might depend upon it, if the French nation should unhappily attempt to bully, threaten, or insult this country, tho same spirit would rise up now as hod in the time when the spirit of ag gression had prevailed under the dominion of a tyrant a nd great conqueror. Such a spirit, however, did not exist among their neighbours. the French. This half and half proposition of the Noble Lord would not have the ef fect of deterring the foes of this country from insulting sad rainnying. her; on the other hand, it would add t o Vito heroens tt ' pe ' o , le already suffering under evils // L ilian all h ave long deplored. At a moment when, with cheerfulness, a large portion of the working classes were T ireri " . e; great and unmerited distress, the Legislature s ''ould take every precaution not to give them real groun d for irritation, Tile Legislature had now other , utl esto attend to—they had to devise how to apply z l / 4 " c relles for the distresses which actually exist. The T . 4 .rd fidetitted that the consequence of the pro o p o s it i o n uld be to fix upon the country a considerable Lion of charge, and this he proposed to meet by an addition to the income-tax. The Noble Lord stated that when the income-tax was first proposed in 1842, he voted against it, but the Noble Lord not only voted but spoke against it, and that speech was very memorable with regard to the particular point that now came under the consideration of the Committee, namely, with regard to the national defences. The Noble Lord, speaking of foreigners, and especially the French, then said that they were net aware of the large amount of burdens from which the proposed tax would relieve the population of this country, and be asked what foreigners would think of the condition of England if it would suffer, after many years of peace. the imposi tion of a tax which had always been considered essen tially a war tax. The imposition of such a tax, the Noble Lord had observed, would produce the conviction that this country bad no other security, but was obliged to resort to it as if the nation was making a struggle for its actual existence, and therefore that the country was unprepared for war. Such had been the expressed opinion of the Noble Lord, and yet now the Noble Lord said the object was to assure all the world that England was afraid of none of them, especially those powerful States who might be supposed to look at this country with the greatest jealousy, at this very mo ment the Noble Lord prepared to play the last card in his hand, which being played, foreign nations would say, " We know you have not another."lherefore, if it were only with a view of getting foreign nations to believe that this country had yet a large stake left, he (Mr. Bankes) would reserve this tax for any contingency that might arise; but at all events he urged on the ' Noble Lord how inexpedient it was to ineur this tax, and thereby show the condition in which the country was placed. But the Noble Lord had remarked that he had not played all his cards, for he had another five per cent. The announcement had given the House and the country ' fair warning as to what might be expected, and he (Mr. Bankes) believed that the best defence the Government ' could provide for the nation would be, that they should remain in their present places as short a time as possible. —(Hear, and laughter.) Under all these impressions he had heard with great regret the propositions of the Noble Lord; he wished for a different application of the existing forces of the country, upon whom the unhappy lot of an addition to the income-tax ought to be spared. Mr. B. OSBORNE said, that of all the financial state ments which it had been the duty of a Minister of the Crown to submit to the House, he thought the House would agree that few had been made with greater fair ness and candour than that they had just heard ; but at the same time he thought the manner in which it would be viewed by the country would be oats of great alarm and consternation. He confessed he thought that if there had been any regular organized opposition in the House such a statement would never have been made by any Government, fur it would have signed the death warrant of any Ministry.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had undertaken the impolitic task of adding to the burden of the country. When this fact went forth to the public, the Ministry would be stamped as having made the most unpopular proposition ever known. Some time since, ho (Mr. B. Osborne) had wished to call the attention of the House to the state and condition of the national defences, hut he rejoiced that the subject had been taken out of his hands by the Noble Lord at the head of the the Government ; but at the same time he thought that the efficiency of the national defences might be increased with no more than the present expenditure ; and further, it was his firm conviction that it was possible to cut down the expenditure in such a way as that the country should be well served without the necessity of any in crease in the establishment. The Noble Lord had gone through various items of the enormous load of taxation which was now about to be placed upon the nation. He had told the House that there were to be added 92,000 men from the dockyards and body of pensioners; but he had kept out of view and from his estimate the very important force in Ireland—viz , the police force, which could not be regarded in any other light than as a military force from 10,000 to 12,000 men. The Noble Lord proposed to meet a deficiency of 3,346,5001. by an increased income tax of five per cent. for two years. Was there any man in the country who doubted that if the Government once got on that tax for two years it would last during the course of their natural lives ?—(Hear, hear.) When the in come-tax was proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it was only to continue for three years. Following in the train of the Noble Lord, he (Mr. B. Osborne) had voted against that proposal, be cause he thought a property-tax would be a fairer im post. By the course now taken by the Noble Lord, who ought now to be ashamed of the vote he gave on that occasion, the Right Hon. Baronet was now nobly avenged. He (Mr. B. Osborne) was much mistaken if this country was not on the eve of very gloomy days, for he could not believe that the vigour of the population, or the elasticity of the revenue of which the Noble Lord had spoken, could ever make up a deficiency of three and a half millions. The Noble Lord had taken credit for the Kafir war; but he (Mr. Osborne) must remark that it had arisen out of gross mismanagement, and would never have taken place if Lord Stanley had not inter fered with the treaty effected by Sir Benjamin D'Urban. On the whole, the Noble Lord had shown that the pre sent was not the retrenching and economizing govern ment which the people of this country had expected. On Monday week, when the question came on, he (Mr. B. Osborne) should be prepared to enter fully into it. In the meantime he called upon the Noble Lord to reflect, and not be led away by the admiration of a militia force expressed by Lord Chatham. The people of the present day had not the same sentiments as those which pervaded the population which existed in the times of that states man. If any proposition was made for any increase either in the army or the navy, ho should vote with the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), and he should oppose any addition to the taxation which already op pressed the people of this realm.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of GRANBY reminded those lion. Members who had supported the free-trade measures of 1842 and 1846 of the results which the present budget exhibited of their policy. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had attributed the deficiency of the revenue to the panic which had pervaded this country, and to the want of employment in the manufacturing districts, and therefore he (the Marquis of Granby) was sorry to think that the Noble Lord had not adopted, the previous evening, the precautions calculated to prevent a recurrence of such a panic disturbing the commerce and industry of the country by the adoption of the resolu tion proposed by his (the Marquis of Granby's) Right lion. Friend and colleague (Mr. Herries). The Noble Lord had admitted that it would take some time before tho country could recover from the panic which had pervaded it, and the misery into which it had fallen, but he destroyed the chance of recovery by proposing an increased income-tax for two years, and the continu ance of the present tax for five years longer. He therefore thought the Noble Lord showed that he had no great confidence in the free-trade measures which he had supported in 1842, and again in 1846. Although it was too much to expect the Noble Lord to return to a sounder course of policy, still he might in his statement have alluded to the measures which in his (the Marquis of Granby's) opinion had conduced to the miseries which the country had suffered. The Noble Lord ought not to have taken credit for the increase in the enjoyment of articles of consumption by the poorer classes of the community, when the commencement of his speech, in which ho talked of the number of mills stopped for want of em ployment, afforded a contradiction to his calculations. Much as he regretted that part of the Noble Lord's speech, he had received much gratification from that part of it in which the Noble Lord declared his determi nation to maintain the independence of the country. He rejoiced to have heard the Noble Lord state that while he was an advocate for peace, he thought the best way to secure it was to be prepared for war. He (the Mar quis of Granby) would not attempt now to enter upon the question of the different items of expenditure for the army and navy; he would only observe that he re joiced to hear the Noble Lord utter the patriotic senti ments which he had expressed in reference to that part of the subject. At the same time he must join in the condemnation of the increase of a tax, which only ought to be resorted to in the worst times of war.—(Hear.) Sir B. HALL said that, in common with the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), he had heard with sincere pain and deep regret the announcement which had to-night been made by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. Though the Noble Lord who had just down had approved of the proposition of the Go vernment in reference to the maintenance of the inde pendence of thiscountry—in which he (Sir B. Hall) con curred—still he thought that, lookiag to the present position of foreign affairs, the Government and Legis lature could well afford to look at the state and con dition of the population at home. He did not think there was anything to apprehend from foreign invasion ; and, therefore, looking at the distress which prevailed throughout the country, he was of opinion that the present was not the time for increasing the expenditure, and consequently the burdens on the people. In taxation not a single reduction was promised, except the miserable reduction in the tax on copper, about which nobody cared anything. It was a fallacy to suppose that the additional income-tax would only continue for the time specified—tn o years; because when it fell in another_ Government would be enabled to make a further increase for a further period. He (Sir B. Hall) was one of those who had voted with the Noble Lord against an income-tax in any shape,and therefore he was surprised that the Noble Lord should come down now and not only propose a continuance, but also an increase of that tax. It was an unpopular im post, and its unpopularity arose from the unfair way in which persons in business were taxed, and the proposi tion to continue it in its present mode would create the most general dissatisfaction.--(Hear, hear.) If it were necessary to continue an income-tax, it ought to be established on an equitable basis, and ought not to be enforced on those who lived by their labour or the ex ercise of their wits and talents.—(Hear, bear.) It was, however, to continue in the same state as now, and the shopkeeper would have to pay as much as the landed proprietor. He would not now enter into details, but when the proposition came legitimately before the House, he should give it the same opposition as when he had jollied the Noble Lord in voting against the tax when originally brought forward; and if it was carried, he should propose that the impost should be extended in its operation to the sister kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. G. R. ROBINSON observed that it was mani fest from the statement of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, that the people of this country had no hope of obtaining any reduction in the national expenditure, and must be prepared to bear additional taxation to make up the existing defi ciency. Nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the statement of to-night. True, there had been since the Peace a considerable remission of taxation, but mean while the condition of the people had retrograded in a greater and more rapid degree than the reduction of their burdens. Hence he csutended that protection was essen tial to the prosperity of the commerce and industry of the land. The people had been deluded, and their best interests betrayed, by the delusive prospects held out to them of the results of free-trade principles. At present LONDON, SATURDAY E_VENING, FEBRUARY 19, 1848. between 7,000 and 8,000 persons were out of employment at Manchester, while others were only partly employed, and then only with inadequate wages for their mainte nance and support. And yet with these facts it had been attempted to persuade the House that they might reasonably look for returning prosperity, for improved commerce, and, as a consequence, a better state of things. But facts and every day's experience proved that the difficulties had arisen from the avoidance of that system of protection which had been so successful for so long a period of years Many of the commercial reforms which had been effected, though perhaps called for by the circumstances of the time, had not benefited this country. On this subject he should, however, reserve himself until a future oc casion. Ho might be ridiculed, but he declared his solemn conviction that by exposing the labouring classes to unrestricted competition with other countries, they must load them with taxation for the public service, and tend to pauperise the whole land. If so the income. tax would become an inadequate source of supply. As to the exemption of Ireland from the income-tax, he knew there were reasons in favour of this. It was most de sirable to improve the condition of that country; but in increasing the income tax at home, it was most unjust that the man 'eh° had an income of 150/. to 2001. a year in this country should be taxed, while the possessor of an income of 20,0001. a year in Ireland was exempt. The prospect of any improvement in our foreign trade was most delusive. He was recently advised that not only in the northern states of America, but in Georgia, the great seat of the cotton plantations, manufacturers were rapidly extending. Not only was this the case in America, but in France, Switzerland, and all over the continent. • The only way for this country to sup port its position was by protecting her agriculture, her native industry, and her shipping interest. By this means the people, instead of being pauperised, would have a sufficiency of employment. He despaired of im pressing the Government with his views ; for, after the conversion of the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth by the Right Hon. Member for West Yorkshire, he feared they could do nothing more than go on as they were, however much he might wish the Legislature to retrace its steps. Colonel SIBTHORP said, whatever pain he might have felt in listening to the statement of the Noble Lord, he had experienced no surprise; nor should he be sur prised at any amount of hypocrisy and tergiversation on the part of Cabinet Ministers and leaders of this House. —(A laugh.) When the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, after professing so much anxiety for the protection of agriculture and so much regard for the Church, and avowing his fixed determination to maintain the interests of both, had displayed such tergi versatien and such unmindfulness of those interests, what surprise could be felt at the course now taken by the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London? In 1842, when out of place, he had said one thing; now he said another. On the introduction of the income tax, he had expressed his his anxiety that it should be equal ; but what equality was there in the ex isting tax, which he now proposed to aug ment ? The fact was, he was now relying en the support of those who had preceded him in office; there was a kind of comfortable understanding between the two parties.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord had thought it policy to act thus, no doubt influenced in some little degree by a regard for the high office he held ; for it was not to be supposed that Ministers were above re ceiving their salaries. He had no faith in the minis terial promises as to the limited duration of the increased tax. There was an old saying, '° Catch a weasel asleep." —(Laughter.) Ho agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken as to the impossibility of our national interests being supported with protection. To such a pitch of liberalism had we now arrived that he understood we were about to send an ambassador to the Court of the Pope ; and this would probably increase our burdens some 4,0001. a year.—(Question.) This was the question, if he was not mistaken ; tor their liberal friends (there never was such a misnomer) were now proposing to make additional demands on the poc kets of the people. Thus, after thirty-three years of peace, we were about to augment a war tax. He believed the invasion-panic was groundless; but the jealousy of foreigners must be excited by our increased preparations for defence, especially at a moment when the country was loudly proclaiming its inability to bear further taxa tion.—(Question, question.) When he had done, the Hon. Gentleman who cried " question" might speak.— (Laughter.) He never had been put down in that House, and never would be.—(Laughter.) What was to be the result of the present proceedings? Were the people to be robbed by an excessive income-tax to patch up the misdeeds of an inefficient Government? The Hon. and Gallant Member then alluded to the army, and said ho did not regret the proposed increase in its efficiency. Were the militia called out he was confident that, in six months, they would be fit for the inspection of any general in the service. But the militia was a consti tutional force, and therefore they did not find favour with many Hon. Members. Convinced that the Noble Lord's proposition must be distasteful to the country, he would meet it with the most direct opposition. Mr. F. T. BARING said he had heard the Noble Lord's statement with considerable pain, not on account of the mode in which it had been made, for, like every thing from the Noble Lord, it was clear and straight forward—(Hear, hear)—but he deeply regretted that, under existing circumstances, in a time of severe distress, the Noble Lord was obliged to state to the House a considerable deficiency, that he felt it his duty to in crease the estimates, and consequently to impose additional taxation. Great part of the excess of expen diture, he understood, had already taken place; and the Noble Lord now felt it his duty in certain points, to add to the establishments of the country. He was not one who thought we could entirely rely on the good feeling of foreign countries, or omit to place ourselves in a state of adequate protection. He should therefore be pre pared to support that part of the proposition, if it were necessary for the security and defence of the country. But while doing so, he should feel it his duty, and he trusted the House would do the same, to look carefully to the amount of expenditure proposed, with a little more reference to economy than had been practised in former years.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that this House, unlike its predecessor, might feel it its duty to investigate the votes proposed by the Government. He should do this with a friendly feeling towards his Right Hon. Friends below him, and with the firmest confidence that they would propose nothing except on the best grounds.—(Hear, hear.) He apprehended there was at present about two and a half millions of actual defi ciency, without any increase whatever. He entirely approved of the manly and proper way of meeting this, either by reducing the expenditure or increasing the taxation.—(Hear, hear.) It was pardonable, last year, under the remarkable circumstances of the case, to meet the deficiency by a loan; but he would bo no party again to any postponement of a permanent defici ency; and he entirely approved of the course pro posed by his Noble Friend, of making the income meet the expenditure fairly and regularly.—(Hear.) As to the mode of meeting it new proposed, he regretted he could not concur in it. He had opposed the income tax on its introduction, when the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had stated that it might last for five years, but that he would take it for three:years first. When, at the end of the three years, it was proposed to continue it, he (Mr. Baring) had stated that, though he entertained all his objections to it, yet, as it,had been originally proposed for five years, and as there was a deficiency of revenue to meet, he was not prepared to throw any difficulty in the way. Had tho Noble Loed now come down and proposed its conti nuation, without any addition, he should have had diffi culty in offering any objection to it ; for, much as he had always objected to it, he thought a deficient revenue worse than any tax.—(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord, not content with the income tax as it stood, sought to raise it from three to five per cent. ; he asked for the original tax for five years, and the additional tax for two, though it was almost a joke on the House to speak of its continuance for so short a time.—(hear.) The truth was, the three per cent. was permanent, and the five per cent., in all probability, we should never get rid of.—(Hear, and laughter.) This was a new proposition, he could not concur in making the income tax part of the permanent taxation of this country, and therefore he could not vote for this , addition of two per cent.—(Hear, hear.) He had opposed the income tax at the time, thinking it a bad species of taxation. He considered it a war tax; and now that there was a talk of improving the defences of the country, he deeply regretted that they were throwing away the most powerful weapon in the treasury, which might have been made available on the occasion of the breaking cut of a war.—(Hear.) Three per cent. was a small eum, and left a considerable margin for an increase in cases of difficulty; but when it was raised to five— and he very much doubted whe ther it would stop there—to what taxation could we recur in case of a war? Would it be possible to raise the income tax above tea per cent.? and at a time when, of all others, trade was in difficulty and distress, could they have recourse to the taxes upon customs and excise which had been thrown away so lavishly ?—(Hear, hear.) Again, he was op posed to it because he thought it a dangerous course to accumulate upon a direct tax any very large amount of taxation. At present the income-tax might be popular in certain quarters ; it might be supposed to relieve the poor man, and to press only upon the rich. That opinion was beginning to change ; and he believed the time was not far distant, when, if the tax was raised to five per cent., or perhaps a little higher, and was sent over to Ireland, a very considerable feeling would be ex cited against it. In such a case, in the play of parties, and with the difficulties of Government, the income-tax might slip from under them, and place them in great inconvenience. —(Hear.) He was quite ready to aban don all custom duties that had been imposed for the purpose of protection, but not those imposed for revenue. There was another objection which weighed much on his mind. In times of great difficulty or war it might be very well, in laying on a tax for two or three years, not to be very nice as to whether its pressure was equal on all classes. But when the income-tax was raised to five per cent., and made part of the permanent system of taxation, they were bound to make it more equal and fair.—(Hear, hear.) He alluded, of course, to the different way in which the tax pressed upon income derived from pre• perty and that derived from the exertions of individuals. —(Cheers.) This could not long stand the test of fair reasoning ; if the tax were raised to five per cont. the public opinion would be strongly excit e d aga i ns t i t . They must matte it fair it they could. Ile hardly 'knew how the alteration could be made : he feared it would be. attended with the greate s t imaginable difficulty ; and this of itself was a great objection to the tax, that there was inherent in it an extreme difficulty of making it a fair tax upon different classes. Mr. I)ISRAELI said that a wiser speech, a more prac tical speech, or one more justificatory of the opinions of Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House he had never heard than that which had been delivered by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He could not deny himself the feeling of euegratuiatieg uis oli. Frieutia around hint uputt the imoral drawn by the Right Hon. Gentleman from the present position of the country.—(Hear, hear.) In 1842 there was a deficiency of 3,000,0001., which pro • duced the fall of Noble Lords and Right Hun. on tlemen opposite. He did not wish that the present deficit might be ominous of a similar result, but that they might be able to contend successfully with the almost insuperable difficulties they had to encounter. And they had this advantage, that there was not a party ready to take the government of the country on principles avowedly opposed to theirs, and who professed to raise the country from its low position by a process which he would not then designate. It was enough that that pr ocess was sufficient, that the deficit was made to disappear, and that a large surplus re mained. But the 5,000,000/.: raised by the income-tax disappeared during a time of peace, and then they . were in the same p os i t i o n.—(Hcar, hear.) Was there no moral to be drawn from that result?—(Hear, hear.) Without floating in the atmosphere of theory, had they not the expe r i ence of seven years to gu id e them , and that experience was condemnatory of the new system. They had been t o ld t h at , w i t h t h e i m po s ition of thein come-tax, there would he a simultaneous relaxation in the principles of their commercial system, which, before the period for which it was passed elapsed, would produce benefits which would relieve them from their difficulti es. Where were th ey ?—(ll ear, h ear .) Wh er e were the profits which they had received in consequence of the abrogation of a single duty ?—(Hear, hear.) Where was the 100,000,000/, which it was stated in the evidence of the late Secretary of the Board of Trade before the Im port Duties Committee, and which was the basis of the legislation of the then Minister of the Crown, they were to receive from the abolition of the corn laws?—(Hear, . hear.) Since then a new lease of the income-tax had been taken, and with the incumbranco of a great fine in addition.—(llcar, hear.) And the defi ciency had been amplified into monstrous dimensions. Where was the 25,000,000 L which the more modest Member for Bolton proposed ? It was not to be found. Not ono shilling in the pound had been received, but they had, it seemed, to pay a shilling in the pound, not only to support the credit of the country, but to maintain its independence in consequence of this new economical policy.—(Hear, hear.) Tnis was bad enough after the magnificent destiny that was promised them, but it seemed they wore not to stop here, for it appeared they were not only t o h ave an income-t ax ,- but anin creased income-tax, as a permanent part of their system.—(Hear, hear.) For the sacrifice they were called on to make in 1842, they were promised a rapid and immense harvest ; but the dismal picture now was that they found themselves swimming against the tide with the same deficit hanging around their necks.— (Hear, hear.) He wanted to know what the principle of the income-tax was, and whether it was to be perpetual? The Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) by his cheer intimated that it was. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government ought to speak out his mind on that point—(Hear)—because it was one of the remarkable circumstance of the income-tax that, while one principle was alleged to that House, for its imposi tion, another was given out of the House. The Right Hon. Baronet (the Member for Tamworth) told the House, with his accomplished plausibility, that the in come-tax was a temporary sacrifice for great national purposes; but, shortly after Parliament was prorogued, a letter appeared from the same Minister, containing a reason for the tax totally discordant and totally different, and which remained up to that moment unexplained, and he believed inexplicable.—(Cheers.) If a majority of that House believed that the additional tax would continue for only two years, that assembly was composed, he would not say of most guillible materials—(Laughter) —but was one to whose sympathies the Minister might appeal with more confidence than any that ever existed. Was it more likely that the Noble Lord would take it off than the Right Hon. Gentleman ? They had a right to probe the financial conscience of the Minister to the bottom in this point, for it seemed that prime ministers had revelations to make to the foreigner which they would not communicate to that House. What if, after the Easter recess, they see in the .lournal des Debats or in the National a letter from the Noble Lord to M. Guizot stating that the peace of Europe was secured—that he had an income-tax of five per cent., and that he might defy France. That would not be more marvellous, and the mortification which it might produce would not be greater, than that which must have been felt when, a few months afier the House consented to the first income tax, a Minister declared that the reasons which he alleged to the House of Com• mons for its imposition were not those which influenced him in his own closet.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord load no right to complain, therefore, if they received his proposition with some degree of suspicion. 'With regard to the relation in which this country stood towards other countries, he expressed a hope which amounted to an opinion that there was no prospect or the peace of Europe being disturbed ; yet the Noble Lord came forward to propose a war vote. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord declared that the armaments of Eng land were by no means in that sorry plight that they were represented to be in, and that they had been in creased; and all this notwithstanding the vigilance of the Nestor of finance (Mr. Hume). If this were so, where were all the advantages of a reform in Parliament, which was to produce cheap government, and reduction in the military establishments of the country ? The army was cut down, and the navy cut down, and the guns spiked, but after the hubbub was over, and the dust laid, a reaction took place—you (the Reformers) and your constituents were gulled, and the armaments of the country were increased while you were looking on. —(Hear, hear.) You who got metropolitan constitu encies to elect you because you said that you would cut down the estimates, find, after a long peace, that not only more soldiers, and more sailors, and more artil lerymen, are required, but the country was in a state of alarm ; that it was not sufficiently pro tected and defended. So much for economy, and for attempting to produce effects which it ought to be known were impossible.—(Hear, hear.) But it seemed that the age of petty criticism had passed away, and that they would no longer tolerate that Gentlemen should get up with that indomitable perseverance, which he always admired in th e H on . M em b er f or M on trose, modified as it was with a naiveté that was charming— (Laughter)—and criticise the conduct of Government with respect to the expenditure of the country. A new era was at hand. A rmaments wou ld no l onger b e re quired—ships no longer necessary—English regiments would be as obsolete as the Roman legions, because there was a new principle of government in action throughout the world —the millennium, so often dreamed of and anticipated in such different shapes, was at length arr ived. It appear e d, h owever, that th i s new principle, whichinflicted 5 per cent. income-tax upon them, was a cos tly compensation as a security for the blessings of perpetual peace.—(Laughter and cheers.) The apostle of that new principle he had never spoken of with disrespect in that House, and he ventured to admire his genius when he was not supported by Prime Ministers.—(Hear.) But the principle now propounded by the Hon. Mem ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) was not se ig as that oth er pr i nciple which he promulgated— the principle of buying in the cheapest markets and selling in the dearest. This principle, which was not no w to the minds of naen—it was not confined to en thusiasts or preachers upon tubs, or solitary monks— for it had before now influenced men of action as it had influenced cabinets. I t had been considered in cabinets and public assemblies, said he need not remind the House of what had been the barren results of those aspirations. A century an d a h a lf e l apse d s i nce i t in fluenced public councils, and they had during that cen tury and a half the longe s t and the bloodiest war that ever existed. —(hear.) Th ere was a man w h o h a d a ll the eloquence of the Hon. Member—though he was not a Member of Parliament —(L aug ht er )—th e Abbe. Ssaint Pierre—and he influenced Minist era a century ago by a plan for perpetual u a ^ peace. -e attended the Congress at U tre tcht, by desire, to explain his views to the repro s ofe ton the Powers, who were extremely inclined g ji: a v t iews. They were the views of a l t i a n t e i d v es toact remarkable man, e n d a they b ecame the more remark able, because they influenced the convictions of Rous seau, who made them p opular throughout Europe. By t h e m the mind and opinions of Robespierre—the dis ciple, or rather the apostle, of the doctrines of univer sal peace—(Laughter)—werei formed, and he was de termined to put them n practice, and develop them when he obtained power. The Ablai, St. Pierre's argu ment was, that Europe was a con f e d erat i on , an d th a t none of the states which composed it could have an in ferest in going to war, because war was opposed to their interests. It was, therefore, necessary that every power should disband its army; but when it was put to him— .. supposing any power it incumbent not consent to the new sys tem?" he replied, that was on the others to enforce those peaceable principles of which he was the great promulgator.—(Laughter.) So that it seemed war was the essential element of his peace. The fal lacy of St. Pierre was the fallacy of the Hon. Gentle man. It was true that it was not t h e interest of those nations which were constituted to go to war. War was not produced by powers that were satisfied, but, as in society, disturbance was created h an individual, who did not find himself in that position whi c h he thought his talents entitled him to.— (Lcud cri es of " hear, hear," froin the Ministerial benches.) e So wits war always produced by nations, races, or princes, who agitated for a position.—(Hear, hear.) Prussia had been often held up in that House by liberal gentle men as a model in the art of government, but sixty years af ter St. Pierre la i d down his doctrine, Prussia did not exist, and a Mar grave of Brandenburg, conscious of great talents, and representing an unknown and rough race, started up, and said he would be king of Prussia, instead of Margrave of Brandenburg , and so produced the seven years' war.—(Loud cheers.) To reason i n f avour of peace fram existing circumstances was to reason on superficial grounds. The Hon. Gentleman took an easy view of the whole continent ; and he had a right to do so, because he had been everywhere well received. He (Mr. Disraeli) was glad of that reception, th oug h per haps he might be disposed to think that the continent did a great deal for him, becaus e he did a great deal for the continent.—(Protectionist cheers.) He did not think that the argument derived from increased commercial intercourse was a sound one. Looking t o th e commer cial relations which existed with France in 1787, when Mr. Eden was suit out to negotiate a treaty, he was not surprised Mr. Pitt should have indulged i n th e that ex pectations to which the Noble Lord had referred. Like the hopes and expectations of the Hon. M em b er, t h ey were founded on the commerce with France, but at that moment they were on the eve of the longest and most in ternecine struggle that ever took place between two nations—longer than the thirty years 3 war in Germany. The increase of commerce did not prevent war then ; why should it prevent war now ? — (Hear, hear.) He believed that by the aid of a wise diplomacy the peace of Europe was never more secure ; he believed that the struggles of former times would be gradually forgotten, but there never was an argument founded on a more flimsy basis than that which offered commercial rela tions as e bond of perpetual peace between nations ; and as long as the universal principles of husaau nature were not repealed by Acts of rarliaraent, he would be lieve in what the truth of history attested, and that nations would continua to be agitated by the pressure which gave rise to war. But it was said that new tendencies hed been introduced by the new system cif commercial policy. The only tendency which he recognised in the new principle was the increase of their taxes.—(liear, hear.) The Gentlemen who represented the Manchester school were not content with relieving themselves, but they must inflict taxes upon their opponents.—(hear, hear.) This new prin ciple was, it seemed, an omnipotent deity, under whose wheels every institution was to fall.—(tlear, hear.) He, however, was not prepared to believe that the commer cial tendency was stronger than the religious tendency, and as the people of Europe professing the same creed for centuries, worshipping the same God and the same Saviour, were not prevented from having recourse to national defences, he did not think that the commercial principle which was only in its swaddline• clothes, would produce results so marvellous. The Hon. Gentleman at the meeting in Manchester, where he promulgated his formal revelation, quoted a flowery speech made at Rouen by M. Grernieux—a speech quite worthy of the purple rhetoric of theAnt'-Corn-law Leagna in its paimiest slays—as his vindication to the people of England. That gentleman also anticipated the millennium, and terminated his tpecch with the words " liberty, equality, fraternity." Why that was the Jacobin banner un ferled !—(Cheers.) What did those words terminate in before ? Not in perpetual peace.—(Hear, hear.) Some men were for liberty, many men were for equality, but as fur fraternity, the only objection he had against it was this, that he always found that every party and .nation who wished to get, or who preached fraternity, were always prepared to perform the part of elder brothers.—(Much laughter and cheering.) That was a rather alarming communication, but it was not all, for when the sun went down " The moon takes up the wondrous tale;" and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Man chester (Mr. Gibson), inspired by " liberty," by " equality," and of course inspired by fraternity— (Laughter)--came forward and told them that was not enough, that the great movement was not to preserve perpetual peace alone, that it must do more—that it must touch the law of land inheritance—remove the anomalies of primogeniture—(Cheers)—and certainly if you inflict a 5 per cent. income-tax this would be the result. Reverting, however, to the subject of debate, he (Mr. Disraeli) reverenced the rude simplicity of the Government.—(lronical cheers.) He only wished their supporters had kept their principles for Covent-garden. —(Renewed cheers.) But what was it the Government asked them to do? The object of their policy was to give the franchise to one class, who throw the burden of taxation upon another. (Hear, hear.) In an age of monopoly let them take care that there was not a monopoly of taxation.—(Renewed cheers.) The Ministry were acting up to the spirit of a class whose principles were, in his opinion, opposed to the permanence of our prosperity. Ile wished the sources of that prosperity to continue, bat he felt that it was impossible to secure the wealth of nations without securing their power. If the principles recerred to succeeded even for a moment, still they were principles opposed to the independence of the country. They might even Ise opposed to the defence of the country ; for on the principle that they thought nothing of a colony, Members opposite might reconcile them ' selves even to consider England a province of France. — (Loud cheers.) But though they on that side of the House were, as they were called, " a broken and dis tracted party," he hoped there was spirit enough left to deal with these principles in a firm tied manly mode. — (Loud opposition cheers.) Weak or strong, they must be prepared to inquire e hat were the principles of the system they were invited to adopt, and be prepared to support at all hazards the ancient and the venerated in stitutions of our realm.—(Great cheering.) Mr. COBDEN then rose and said—l shall be obliged to descend from those regions of imagination into which the Hon. Member ler Buckinghamshire has soared; and although he has apparently paid me the high compli ment of following me with some attention from France to England, from Manchester to Covent garden, and thence over the Continent, yet, whilst we are in a Com mittee of Supply, and while the budget is before us, the Hon. Gentleman must pardon me when I say that I have not found in his speech much that I think it necessary to refer to on this occasion.—(llear, hear.) I must confess that I did not hear with surprise the disastrous report which has been made to us by the Noble Premier with reference to the state of our finances. His budget has been but a counterpart of the balance sheet of all the industrial interests of the country; but what has surprised me very much has been to find that, unlike individuals who unfortunately have a balance on the wrong side of the account, the Government, instead of making some effort to diminish the expenditure so as to render it equal to the receipts, seems apparently to have only ono thought—that of raising the receipts to equal the expenditure.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Now, this is precisely the opposite policy to that which is pursued by individual concerns throughout the country. I venture to say that at this moment in every manufacturing and mercantile concern in the kingdom, the greatest pains are taken, and the utmost care and anxiety are devoted to the task of making the two ends meet in the balance sheet; and if they can contrive to keep themselves from a loss in striking the balance I believe they are very well satisfied. I am not only exceed ingly pained at the defalcations of our revenue, but I am, if possible, more pained at the tone in which the Noble Premier has alluded to the necessity of an in crease in our expenditure with reference to the army. I must say—and I say it with the greatest regret—that I believe there has not been a speech made by a Prime Minister in this House since the peace so calculated to do mischief as the speech of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) Why, Sir, it I, an irresponsible private indi vidual, had alluded in such terms to France in the Free trade Hall iu Manchester, it might have been passed over; but when a Noble Lord, holding the position of Prime Minister of this country, draws attention to the state of France, and adduces the pre parations of that country for war as a motive fur our augmenting our armament, what is it but a menace? (Cries of No, no," and " Hear, hear")—an Act cal culated to irritate and exasperate?—(No, no, and cheers.) 1 am anxious to give you, the representatives of England, the opportunity of disclaiming any such feeling in the remarks which have fallen from the Pre mier; but we know we have a sensitive nation to deal with, and I think there could not possibly have been too much reserve exercised by the Noble Lord in dealing with a topic of this nature. Now, I ask myself, " What is the occasion of all this? Why have we heard lately of the necessity of an increase of our armaments? What leave beea the indications of a warlike tendency towards us from France or elsewhere?" We were told in the Speech from the Throne, that her Majesty had the assurance from all foreign States of sentiments of amity. Now, I wish to ask this question— for it is time that wo should come to honest straight forward feeling and speaking—" Does the language of the Sovereign speak the truth ?" If so, how can this armament be necessary ? Are we justified in arming in this country wnen we have declared, through our Sovereign, that a feeling of perfect confidence exists that peace will be maintained ? Where thee is our danger? Has France been arming against us? There is no evidence of the kind. I know there have been facts and figures brought forward to show that France lies been augmenting her navy. Yes, and when this question comes substantively before the House, as it will do—for if the Hun. Member for Mon trose (Mr. Hume) had not told me that it was his inten tion to propose a special motion on this subject I would have done it myself, but I bow to him with all deference, and shall be happy at all times to follow him his career of economy—l will be prepared to show you from the speeches in the French papers that your augmentation of your navy has been the standing plea and excuse for the increase of the French force .—(llear, hear.) The Noble Lord has himself told us that our navy is as near as possible double that of the French. Ought not that to have satisfied us? Who's afraid?—(A laugh.) Yes, who's afraid of being invaded?—(Hear.) Where are the people that have petitioned fur your protection? Why, I have the honour to represent the largest and most important constituency of the empire; there is a population probably of a million, and I believe there is not one town in West Yorkshire in which there has not been a public meeting to disclaim all desire of the sort, to disclaim all fear, and to pray that you will not augment your army. I represent 36,000 electors, and I challenge any one to contradict use, when I say that the vast majority of that important constituency is opposed to this measure of the Government.—(Cheers.) I men tion this with the greater satisfaction, that it may go forth, and go to France and to Europe, alongside of the speech and the proposal that have come from the Prime Minister.—(llear, hear.) And at what time is this pro posal made?—(llear, hear.) I should have been sorry at any time to see such a proposal; but at a time sucleas the present ought there not to be the most cogent reasons why you should put us to this expense?—(Hear.) And what are the reasons? I listened attentively, and I beard not one fact alleged by the Noble Lord to call for these armaments. Ile said that, in 1792, Mr. Pitt had great confidence in peace, and he proposed, I believe, a partial disarmament ; but there was war in 1793. It is true ; but we were in different circumstances then in England, as they were also in France. I believed that if Mr. Pitt had had the power he would never have gone to war to put doe n the French Revolution. I believe if Mr. Pitt had had then what the Noble Lord has now — an intelligent middle class in the kingdom, governing the kingdom—and a more instructed working class averse to war—he never would have embarked in that war— (Hear, hear)—but he was carried into it by the aristoc racy of this kingdom and the obstinacy of the monarch wielding the power of the aristocracy for the purpose. —(Hear, hear.) But we have the lesson of the war which followed—we have the debt which followed as a i bond of peace. And !how is it in Franc e ? What is the motive now in Franco for going t hrou g h such a re volution as in 1793 ? Why France has g one thro ug h its social revolution—it has effected its social revolution, and I know of no motive now why France should seek such a revolution as that of 1793. 'They have no pri vileged order ; theyjibare no established church— (lronical cheers from the Opposition)—they h ave no great inequalities of condition ; there is a very minute subdivision of property ; and I ask what possible motive of the kind can there be i n France being(l a r , hear.) Then, I say, these f ac t s evidences that we should new arm , are insteadof proofs that we are no longer in the same daeger.— (Hoar, hear.) The Noble Lord has alluded to our narrow escape in the affair of Mr. Pritchard. Why, I take that as another proof that we are not going to war for any such trifling things in these days.—(Hear, hear.) We aro told of secret councils in the Foreign-office between our Minister and the Minister of France, and of the great danger of war. Well, I venture to say, that if those two gentlemen had ever come to that point of obstinicy or er recklessness, that they had proposed to involve 60,000 of men, their fellow subjects, in a bloody war, the result would have been that they would both harp been turned out of office.—(Bear.) But what does the Noble Lord come to ? Why, ho tells us that we are not arming against a probability, but that it is necessary to arm against an improbability—" that it is sometimes necessary to take precautions against an improbability." —(A laugh.) Now, I ask, is not that treating the country with some degree of levity and with some degree of disrespect ?—(Hear, hear.) Im poverished as the people are, not only by the burdens of the State, but also by local burdens pressing heavily upon them, is it not too bad to propose to in crease our army against the expressed wish of the people of our large towns, and to have no better argument for it than that it is desirable to take precautions against an improbability?—(Hear, hear.) Let me ask the gentle men connected with the war service a question. Is it not possible to make the present amount do?—(Hear, and a laugh.) I ask the lion. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward), the Secretary to the Admiralty, just to consider the point. He is going, we will say, to get the same amount as he did last year; has he ever thought whether the same mount will not go a great deal further now than it did twi lee or eighteen months since? —(Dear, hear.) I ask any gentleman connected with railroads, any gentleman connected with Birmingham or with any of the iron districts, will not 17,000,0001. go a greet deal further in the purchase of commodities now than they would last year?—(Hear.) But I will not say 17,000,000/., because my Hon. Friend will tell me that a vast deal of that sum goes in fixed payments, but I will say 2,000,000/. or 3,000,000/., and I state that commodities are 25 per, cent. cheaper than they were iast year; and it' he can get the same amount now as he did then, let him make himself comfortable.— ; (A laugh.) There are very few of his constituents in Slit ffield that will get the same amount as they did last year.—(Bear, hear.) I see no reason at all why we should augment our forces, and 'when the time conies I will oppose its being done ; and by not one shilling will I consent to augment the army, nary, cr ordnance this year.—(Hear, hear.) Now, as to this income-tax that is proposed to be put on. I have no objection to such a tax. The Hon. Member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) has been attacking me for that tax. I want to know what taxes are fairer than property and income-tax.—(Hear.) We raise 54,000,000/., and a large proportion of it comes from tea, coffee, and sugar ; I ask the Hon. Member for Bucks, does not he think that the poor wretches of peasants that have to go and buy threepennyworth of tea or twopennyworth of sugar on a Saturday night, and pay a large per centage upon that little orttlay for taxation, find it quite as grievous to them as the pro perty-tax is to the landowners ?—(Hear, hear.) I do not think an income-tax quite so fair—(Hear, hear)--eny great objection is its inquisitorial character, from which men of property escape. But when you propose an in come and property-tax to spare the Government effecting some little economy in your excise department and your dockyards and your Government offices, then I object to it.—(llear, hear.) But the Hon. Member for Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) will excuse me if I tell him that what he has said is rather calculated, unintentionally I am sure, to create a misapprehension in Bucks as Ito what we have been doing in the progress of our commercial re form. Ile talks of the great deficit. Yes; it is easy to have a great deficit if you are always voting increased expenses.—(Hear, hear.) But who votes those increased ; expenses? Has the Hon. Member for Bucks ever been found voting for economy ? Will he now join in re sisting this profligate expenditure of the public money? —(hear, hear.) Now, let the Hon. Member look well to it. I will engage for it that th oug h h e ra il s at t h e expenditure, thoug he denounces the income-tax and abuses the free-traders for it, he will vote for the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) But don't let him charge the free-traders with it. It is nit free trade that does it ; it is the constant expenditure. Sine 1835 you have increased the expenditure by 7,000,000/ , and that upon the small item which is variable, and which comprised the charge ;for the army and navy and ord nance; buttwho has done that ? Why, the Hon. Mem ber for Bucks and those who have acted with him.— (Hear, hear.) There would have been no necessity for an income-tax if the expenses had not been augmented ; it is your extravagance that causes it.—(Hear, hear.) Why, if you had kept the armaments at what they were in 1835, you might now have stood in the same relation to France—for France, as I will prove to you, only armed'in self-defence and because you did ; and you might have taken off the duty on tea, or the window , tax, or both together.—(Hear, hear.) You might have had relief equal to the whole amount of your poor-rates. You arc actually paying in this increased expenditure a sum as large as your poor-rates ; it is tantamount to doubling the pauperism of the country.—(Hear.) Then I say, cut down your expenditure. Help us. Now, I will give,you a reason why you should help us. I will talk to the Hon. Protectionists now as men of sense.—(A laugh.) Give up the idea of forming a party upon pro tection.—(Hear.) You see your leaders drop away ; and why do leaders drop away ? Because you have really no party, aed you have no principle.—(Laughter.) It is a sham and a fudge.—(Renewed laughter and cheers.) Talk of restoring protection! You might as well think of exthroning the Stuarts again.—(Cheers.) You might as well talk of restoring the year 1846 to the calendar as of restoring protection.-- (Renewed cheers.) The thing is dead and gone and disposed of.—(Cheers.) Then what is the next question for you? You cannot in demnify yourselves against a moderate price of corn by coming upon the public purse; that I guarantee—that you shall never have a corn-law again, do or say what you will.—(Cheers.) What then? Why, diminish the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Bucks usually favours the House with a great deal of historical knowledge, and perhaps he will excuse me for calling his attention to an historical fact which oc curred net more than 30 years ago. If the Honourable Member will take the prices of corn in one hand and the statements of the public expenditure in the other, he will hind that in the years in which the prices of corn were lowest the Parliament always cut down the expenditure. Let us begin with 1822. After the conclusion of the war the Honourable Member for Montrose was always endeavouring to persuade the House to bring down the establishments to a peace footing, but he could never get the county Mem bers to listen to him till 1822. In that year wheat fell to 445. a price unheard of for fifty years previously, and then the county Members came up cn masse to support the economical propositions of the Hon. Member for Montrose; they struck off 20,000 men from the services, and effected reductions in the expenditure to the extent of 2,800,000/. The Hon. Member for Montrose, econo mist as lie was, felt a little alarmed at the slashing re trenchments of the country gentlemen.—(A laugh.) In 1826 the price of corn was fifty per cent. higher, and at once the establishments were augmented and the expen diture was carried to the point at which it stood in 1821. Then came that terrible year 1835, when wheat went down to 335. 4d. on the average, and, immediately the army, navy, and ordnance estimates were cut down to 11,500,000/. Now you are going to vote 19,000,0001. for those estimates.—(hear, hear.) I tell the Protec tionists that they are going to have moderate prices for corn. During the lust twelve months we have had an exceptional state of things altogether. Every body knows that the future normal state of the corn market will be one of moderate prices.—(Hear, hear.) Bear in mind that when wheat comes to a moderate price it cannot be got up again by any contrivance. There can now be no rebound—no reaction by means of the sliding scale. The corn-laws are repealed. The merchants, manufacturers, and traders arc satisfied with the result. Suffering as they were, the manufacturers had not exhibited the slightest symptom of wavering on that point. Do you suppose that the manufacturers of the north and the workmen of the metropolis, when corn comes down to 405., will listen to the syren notes of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and consent to have the corn-laws re•imposed?,—(" Hear," and laughter.) I can tell the Protectionists that there is not a chance of restoring the corn-laws. It is all moon shine to tell the electors of counties about protection.— (" Question, question.") I think I am rather too close to the question.—(" Hear," and laughter.) I say that the only chance for you and your constituencies is to help the free-traders in their endeavours to reduce the expenditure of the country. It will not be possible much longer to amuse the county constituencies with the cry of protection. They begin to perceive that it is a phantom and for their interest and your own you will be com pelled to advocate measures of peaceful economy. I hope, too, that you will induce the Foreign Secretary to hold out the olive branch to the French nation, ia stead of seeking for the means of irritating it and keeping it in a constant fever of excitement. If free trade can effect that, it will have done something to carry out the principle about which the lion. Member for Buck inghamshire had eo much declaimed. I never said that free trade would bring the millennium. I am not one of the enthusiasts whom the Hon. Member compared to St. Pierre. I certainly have said that the interchange of commodities would knit nations together in the bonds of peace; but in that I was only echoing what I conceived to be the best sentiments in the speeches of the Right Hon. Members for Tamworth and the Noble Lord the Member for the city of London. I never heard those eminent persons speak on the subject of free trade with out their descanting on its tendency to unite nations by the ties of mutual interest. Though I am no enthusiast, and do not look for the millennium as a consequence of free trade, I do believe that that system will be the means of closely uniting France and England. We have repealed the corn-laws more by accident than anything else ; for the spirit of free trade does not pervade this assem bly, nor the Goveintnent.—(Hear, hear.) If it did, Ministere would not have introduced into this House the question of war taxation in a spirit which might have been tolerated 50 years ago, but which was totally re pugnant to the temper of the present age. Since, how ever, the corn-laws ere repealed, whether by accident or otherwise, you will be obliged to economize by the re duction of the army and other warlike establishments. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I think it would have been better to have postponed any discussion on the topics introduced in the speech of my Noble Friend until Monday week, for we have been led into a debate upon this occasion which has been truly described as being of a very desultory character. It appears to me that the speech of the Hon. Member who has just addressed the House, as well as that of the Fon Member for Montrose, must have been prepared under the idea that the Government intended to propose this evening an enormous increase in the a mount of our establishments.—(Hear, hear.) The phrases " war taxes" and " war budget" raust have beento con cocted in the belief that my Noble Friend was about 000 propose an addition of 10,000 men to thearmy,oo, ordnance.— to the navy, and God knows what to the e e f fact? The (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Yet what is th addition to the estimates is somewhere about 3,000 men,_ and the increase of cost 300,0001. It surprises me that the Honourable Member for Yorkshire should have re presented the speech of my Noble Friend as T calculated to excite an angry feeling in France. My I\ oble Friend distinctly stated that, as far as depended upon us, we were determined to maintain peace with France, and he expressed his desire that we should continue not only on friendly but very intimate terms with that country.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member , condemned my Noble Friend for haying, as he said, referred to the military force of France ; but the fact is, that my Noble Friend expressly declared that he would not allude to the French army. My Noble Friend confined his observations to the French navy, and in that inference he is justified by the general course of precedent, for the estimates have seldom been brought forward in this House without some direct reference being made to the marine of France. I re member that when I represented the navy department in. this House, the Government was annually censured for not making that branch of the service more efficient, and the naval force of France was constantly referred to in justification of those remonstrances. The Hon. Member must have wonderfully misunderstood what fell from my Noble Friend when he could represent him to have said that our naval estimates were twice as great as those of France. My Noble Friend said no such thing. On the contrary, he referred to the number of seamen voted for the French navy as being as great as those required for our navel service, and he argued, from that circumstance, that our naval establishment—taking into consideration the great extent of our trade and colonial possessions beyond those of France—could not be deemed extravagant. The number of seamen voted for the French navy was, 20,000 ; about the number required in our estimates of the present year. As regards men, therefore, the ser vices of the two countries are on a par. An Hon. Member opposite read us a lecture upon the disregard of economy during the last few years; but I believe that my predecessors in office will concur with me in stating that the increase of expenditure was not forced on the House by the Government, but on the Government by the House.—(hear, hear.) Whatever increase of ex penditure has occurred has taken place with the almost unanimous assent of the representatives of the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the events of the last year, and the prospect of increased taxation, may work a change in the tone of feeling in this House ? but I }tope that Hon. Members will not rush from one extreme to the other, and in their anxiety for economy be induced to /forget what is due to the honour and interests of the country. I am disposed to deal as fairly and frankly with the House as Hon. Gentlemen can wish ; and I will held out no expectation which I think there is no prospect of realising. With regard to the deficiency of 2,500,0004 to which the Hon. Member for Portsmouth has alluded, and for which it will be necessary to provide, it includes the expense of the Kafir war, which was caused by events that took place within the colony itself ; the coat of that war for the past two years was, in fact, money already gone from the military chest ; to the extent of 2,500,0001., there was a deficiency over which the Go vernment had no control whatever. I have a strong objection to providing for a peace expenditure by a. loan. It is true that, to meet tho expenses caused by the famine, and under the peculiar circumstances of last year, the emergency was met by a loan ; but, except under such extraordinary circumstaneea, I should not be disposed to resort to one. With regard to the income-tax, as it at present stands, it is quite true I have indirectly expressed an (opinion that there was no prospect of its being taken off; I did consider the three per cent. as a permanent part of the taxation of the country.—(llear, hear.) I know it was not imposed as a, permanent tax; but when it was voted in 184 a, Ido not believe any man really thought there was any prospect of its being taken off.—(" Oh," and laughter.) I for one voted for it, with e perfect conviction it would never be taken off—(Hear, hear)—and I do not think any ono was sanguine enough to hope it. I think it right to de clare that I do not see any chance of that part of our taxation, amounting to 5,000,000 L, being taken off. This applies to the three per cent.; with respect to the addi tion of two per cent. now proposed, for a period of two years only, I will make no promise, as Ido not wish to he taunted with it hereafter. The power is left to the House of Commons of deciding on the question of its continuance; but when my Hon. Friend (Mr. F. Baring) says there is no chance or probability of this addition being taken off, I think he rather underrates the pos sible amount of our future revenue, and miscalculates our probable expenditure. Taking the revenue at the end of last April it was 53,789,0001.; the ordinary expenditure to be voted for this year, omitting only the provision for past expenditure, would be 53,101,0001. Deducting the ordinary expenditure of this year from the ordinary revenue of the last, there will be a surplus of 688,0001. ; if we deduct from this last amount the expense of the militia aid the loss by the remission of the duty on copper ore, there will be still a surplus of 497,0001. What I have said shows that the discontinu ance of the added duty is not beyond the region of pro bability ; but, as I said before, I will make no promise on the subject. With regard to the prospects of an im provement in the revenue, it ought to be borne in mind that the effect of such a calamity as a famine on the resources of the country does not end with the cessa tion of the calamity itself. In the first half of 1846 there was an increasing revenue ; that improvement con tinued up to the end of July ; it was not till after that month the revenue began to fall off. Even meaning the state of things to be returning to the prosperity of that year, still we cannot expect that the revenue will improve till some time shall have elapsed after the calamity; even if trade does improve, it will not produce a favourable effect on the revenue at so early a period as could be wished. The Hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Robinson) has expatiated largely on the extraordinary falling off in our exportts during the past year. I think the Hon. Gentleman cannot have seen a paper that has been laid on the table of the House this morning. It gives a comparative statement of the ex ports of the past year compared with the year preceding, and, with the single exception of cotton goods, for which the high price of cotton is sufficient to account, there is not an item of our export trade on which there has not been an increase. On our linen and woollen goods, in hardware, on our silk manufactures, there has been an increase during last year compared with the year before. lam quite at a loss to understand how the Honourable Gentleman could have spoken of an extraordinary falling off in our manufactures. I are not aware of any other observation to which it is necessary that I should refer. With regard to all these questions of income and expenditure, they will be much more properly discussed when the estimates come before the House. The army and navy estimates will be sub mitted to the House in the course of next week, and a fitter occasion will then be afforded for the discussion of those matters. I can only remind the House now that over the greater part of the expenditure wo have no con troul whatever, and I think that the House will agree with me that we ought nut to get over the difficulty in which we find ourselves placed by borrowing. we have no other alternative, therefore, than to propose ad ditional taxation. With regard to the mode in which we propose to raise the taxation, I think it will be better to defer the debate upon it till Monday weeltAwhen I think we shall be able to show that the plan which we have pro posed will occasion less disturbance and inconvenience to commerce and to agriculture than any other mode of taxation that can be suggested. Sir R. INGLIS had tried on several occasions to catch the Chairman's eye, as he wished to introduce something like novelty into the debate. There was not, with the exception of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, any Member who had addressed the Committee who had given even a qualified assent to the proposition of the Noble Lord—(Hear, and laughter)—and upon that ground he wished, as an independent Member, to state in a very few words the view which ho took of the sub ject under consideration. Passing by the able and effec tive speech of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, he would advert to the speech delivered by the Right Hon. Member for Portsmouth, who was willing to con tinue an income-tax of three per cent., though a war tax, but whose prejudices rose strong against it, and compelled him to vote against his friends and succces sors, when, under pressing necessities, they were obliged to raise it two per cent. But surely, if it was objec tionable in point of principle to impose an income-tax in a time of profound peace, an income-tax of five per cent. was not more objectionable, as far as principle was concerned, than an income tax of three per cent. Ho did not understand, therefore, the distinction made by the Right Honourable Gentleman the former Chan cellor of the Exchequer. Now came the great ques tiea of all—Did we want the money? No man had a morbid love for paying taxes, or anything else, though, perhaps, an honest man might like to pay his butcher's bill—(Laughter) —and not even the ingenuity of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, or of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or of any former Chancellor of the Exchequer, could produce money without corresponding taxation. That must be either in the shape of an in creased property-tax, or of a tax that had never ap peared before. Did any of the Liberals propose to revise old taxes—such as the house tax? It should be borne in mind, that we had been spared for a longer period in the history of Europe than had ever before occurred, from any approach to war between any of the great European powers. What right had we to expect 1 that another interval of half that duration would pass without war? We believed that, through the mercy of God, this country had been saved for centuries from a personal knowledge of the horrors of war. How long it might please Providence so to direct the elements as to baffle the attempts of our enemies at invasion ho of coursh ly,sg,Oiarairn,g wh ich would could not foresee. Three centuries ago a storm scattered the invading fleet of the most powerful Sovereign in Europe, and it was on that occasion that v e o u u s r aili Qi a le v e it a , struck the medal bearing this inscription, " itstworams clear also a dissipontur." On a subsequent occasNioonwa prevented an invasion of this country. mensely larger through that ' i r t a ,l n . c a e s than that the our army of o b f ut } of aggression. kind of discipline taught render it more formidable for the purpose discipline for the Frenc h wan by conti nually actual notonly n Minister imo k re n ne T t gt t h h ce a h t rdaenax danger cg n i e4 o r t t: f feel very army; Algiers was a school of and could oar English his duty e d he t o ll • le on the subject, in which it was shown how able erne small the increased amount of taxation would be remembered reading in t compared with the increased premiums for insurance upon property. Believing that there was an utter fa ll ac y in all thoso principles which assume that commerce would unite that which Christianity had failed to keep together—believing that as long as human passions continued, as long as rapacity on the one hand might be provoked by possession on the o ther, so long it was the p ar t of civil wisdom to be prepared to resist a possible, though, perhaps, scarcely a probable enemy—ho believed that in public, as in private life, the best security that a nation, as an in dividual, could possess against attack was to be pre• pared for it, even from a professed friend. Under such circumstances, ho desired to express his ge neral concurrence in the proposition of her Majesty's Government, though he should take another opportu nity of calling their attention to a subject which he had already endeavoured to impress upon their prede cessors—to the principle upon which a property-tax ought to he levied, or rather to the point at which it ought to commence. He believed that a largo portion of the population were utterly unable to pay the increased tax; and he considered it to bo the duty of the GOA Yerlllilellt SO to apportion the impost 1p to make tti 4 1' I' I'. r f c I -. i I I II 11 I G 1 1 C I 1