The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-31 00:00:00

, I i 037,456 0 04 • 0, 0 - 00 • 34 18 £1, 23 376 4 141 dur clergY andresiderit'n-re' 544 fie esidene Ja'Sirt• Lora ' es 0. o o , I I o f the ri hiehl 14' eo untry could boast.—(Hear, hear.) He added to these the ._, names of the Ri g ht H on . G en tl eman th e Member for Cam b_ri.luge, the H on . B aronet t h e M em b er f or D un d e e, and that the late President of tl - e Board of Control, beside those of a host of Irish Members. All these men were practically conversant with Ireland, ar.d all concurred in the views which he (11r. Ward) had, upon the occasion to which he referred, endeavoured to l ay b efore the House. H e wou ld ta k e t h e liberty of reading to the House an extract from a speech of a ~eNoble L or d who was a Member of Lord Grey ' s Government. system, allud e d to Lord Stanley, who, in speak i ng o f t h e t i t h e I s tem, in the y ear 1832, sa id—" Th e res i s t anc e to tithes was the universal i n I re l an d. I t ex t en d e d t o the Protestants in in n orth, as well as to the Catholics in the south. The seeds , been long sown and were deeply rooted. Every symptom Which• . could mar k a d eterm i ne d oppos iti on on th e part of a re Populati on — act i ng as one man aga inst the imposition 13 a legal due—had been developed upon this occasion. NO process could be served—no attorneys would act." Nothing be farther from his intention than to attribute to the Noble Lord (th e M em b er f or L ancas hi re ) an y concur rence in his (Mr. W.' s ) op i n i ons upon t hi s quest i on; b ut h e cou ld no t e vidence id recurri ng to t h e speec h w hi c h h e h a d j us t qu oted, as vridence to show the extent of the evils resulting from the present position of the Church Establishment in Ireland, and ip..order to prove, that whatever might be the abilities of the minister who attempted to sustain that Establishment in its Present shape —however great might be his energies, and towever admitted might be the confidence reposed in him i d the House of Commons (and unbounded was the con v_ence which that House certainly reposed in the Minister of ~,°°M he had spoken),—no man could pretend to carry on the Government in such a manner as to meet the wishes of the i !eoPle and their representatives without resolving to take to consideratio n th e s y s tem itself.—( Cheers.) It was to the system th e L eg i s l ature must l oo k : it was a t the system e Legislatu re must str ik e .—( C on ti nue d cheers.) If they Wished to extricate themselves from the difficult i es i n w hi ch t hey were then involved—if they wished to put an end to a mate of things under which they were continually called on for rants out of the public purse to enable them to enforce a a which they had not the moral courage to repeal, and all fict is without p rocur i ng p eace f or I r eland, or restoring the con e,nee of the pe o pl e i n the Government, but pursuing a course of _ legisl a ti on t h e resu l t o f w hi c h must b e to a dd con t em pt t o h atred o f our L eg i s l ature — a consequence w hi c h mus t inevi ta4 IY follow f rom th e con ti nuance o f a system which must be ZabhorrentL to any c ou ntry possessing a particle of freedom, and Wh ere those measures only which are founded on the ev.trnal principles of justice and truth could be received ith gratitude. If, he repeated, they wished to escape the hesitat e ev il s i n h erent i n t h e ex i st i ng s y s t em , th e y cou ld no t to affirm the principle involved in the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Loud cheers.) He should, perhaps, be told, us t he was begging the question ; he should be told that the Gentlemen on the other side of the House were prepared to rt on the principles of justice and of truth. He should, he f a t ted to say, he reminded that the question of commutation of f l o t r u_e: hying adjusted, the Government would be enabled to en ,„e the law with the occasional assistance of the army. He 01 not believe that any Bill for commutation would be of the ghtest avail in Ireland, unless they changed the appropriation cs the accompaniment of the act.—( Cheers.) They might ex mpt the clergy from actual collision with the people ; but they ly transferred th e o di ous responsibility of the collection from Lue clergy to the landlords.—( Hear, hear, hear.) No one it uld expect that the landlord should make a sacrifice of the ruount of tithes due from the land. He must ultimately come °n the tenant for the payment of the tithes • and his claim Wo uld be resisted on the same grounds as those now urged, il t ir e lY, that the money called for would lee appropriated to (II Maintenance of a Protestant Church Establishment.— "' e ar, and cheers.) They would be obliged to give him the seek support as that which the clergy were now compelled to k from the army, and they might be prepared to see more 4411 . eormac scenes—the landlords instead of the clergy being the i mmediate cause of their enactment.—( Hear.) He did et wish to be considered as referring to Rathcormac with any ih W ri t ty view o r o bj ec t. He did not wish to cast the slightest iPutation on those who were unfortunately implicated in that 7usaction, 0 , and particularly as their conduct was likely to be- Ztle the subject of judicial inquiry ; but he must be allowed, 1 ! man and a Christian, to enter his protest against a system ~, ueh could, by th e re motest possibility, in the 19th century, Lpro duce such results, and couple those results with the name tri ll religio n es t a bli s h e d f or th e purpose of inculcating the doc- H ne , 3 of mercy and of peace.—( Loud and continued cheers.) hHe had, too, referred to the massacre at Rathcormac, in a tl e ttse the Members of which expressed their opinions of Wheneverc of Foreign Powers in no very measured terms our received notions of justice and right. He remembered on p e , Memorable occasion, that a recital of the sufferings of the Which , created a burst of indignation in that House, to allay q u ell, it required the most energetic efforts of several Hon. en:the n , to whom he need not more particularly refer. He °ll id ask them to reverse the case, and to imagine themselves ,i, t° lg in Russia, Prussia, or France — in which countries the ta ost enlightened equality prevailed with respect to religious : 1 0 3 inion, and where no unjust distinctions were drawn on ac llnt of any difference in the tenets of the different classes of °Ha bitants—and to suppose the Hon. Member for Dublin de scantinge upon the grievances to which the Catholics had been subjected for the last three hundred years, in order to to r ? : up and maintain a church opposed to their feelings and r a - ,;, 114)11 a. He might, in his history of the wrongs which Ire hadj„" endured, tell such an assembly as that which he had ,„ c t i mentioned, of the existence and nature of the penal laws ; his this was a topic which required no eloquence to rata it upon the minds of his auditory ; nothing could (61 , to the force of facts in reference to those laws.- -eers. He • rhttell them, also, that a church W as mig simply pI A maintained by the support of seven millions of peo e' f rom the doctrines of which they disstrited, and which alrectly or indirectly was the cause of all the sufferings L t d misery which the people of Ireland endured.—( Cheers. ) 4 t l them be told that, at this day, the laws with respect to 1, 4 es were so rigorously enforced, that upon one occasion nine or man beings were sacrificed by what was termed law, in titk er to enable a Protestant clergyman to collect 4/. 10s. of C e s•--( Cheers.) He might just touch upon the story of widow_her joy when, upon looking at the first of the bodie s the slain, she discovered that it was not that of her so n f '• and the heart-rending account which she gave of her when, upon turning over the second body, she found t hat her suspicions were well founded.—( Hear, hear.) Let the injustic e of other countries, then, be no longer talked of , th en t such damning proofs of the most palpable injustice were to oe found amongs t themselves.--( Hear, hear, and cheers. ) Would this injustice be diminished, by transferring from the i f e rn to the landlord the odium of collecting tithes ? No ; claim would be resisted with as much firmness and Perse verance, as was that of the clergyman at present; Cnd they must support his claim by armed force.—(Loud f r : e rs.) Whilst upon this point, he would read an extract t h" t u Mr. Burke, on the folly of attempting to reconcile e People to grievances, by having recourse to military pow er:—" Where grievances exist, the complaint, or its c auses, o ug h t to b e remove d ; an d w ise and lenient acts should not c ede measures of vigour. These ought to be the ultinia , • the prima, not the tota, ratio of a wise Government. God I torb•d that, on a worthy occasion, authority should want the P e aos of force, or the disposition to use it ! But where a Pr e and enlarged policy does not precede it, and attend it • Where the hearts of the better sort of people do not go Withi the hands of the soldiery—you may call your Constitu den what you will ; in fact, it will consist of three parts (or -I,e,r,s. if you please)—cavalry, infantry, and artillery—and of t i e l 'uolg else, or better l"—( Cheers. ) But he should be told h ave if commutation were to be carried into effect, they would — "Ye th e better portion of the community with the Legislature, je . Lhat the Government might be enabled to compel the and Wishes with the aid of the soldiery, backed by the feelings u pon Wishhieesh asowf the greater portion of the community. Now, d P° ll what authority did that assertion rest? He found a very iff • erent opinion expressed by the Marquis of Anglesea in a generally attributed to him, and which he had no hesitation in referring to, because he believed it had ap rtare in the public prints, and was allowed to be authentic. wa d s in these words : The King's Government will be left in Ireland without any other e tat t, than the King's troops. tt :'The establishment, which at all times far exceeded the wants of rrotestant congregations, has hitherto been upheld by the State, mein! Y on the ground, that it served the temporal use of consolidating re connecti on between the two countries. But this s.rvice it no longer ot'f°r rns. Instead of strengthening the connection, it weakens it. A n 1 „ 1 „ -- r Government henceforth pledged to maintain that establishment, tu n s be brought into constant and permanent collision with public opi it 'and wi t h t h e preju d ices an d p ass ions of the Irish people Again, strong . ruression has been forced up ' on me, that no measure of ad juTh"`rn p ent, how ev er sa tisfactory in other respects, will perfectly meet the 4 " g e ncY, which does not include such a gradual reiuction of super ...Kitts members as shall, finally, bring down the numbers of its dignita and el officiating ministers to a scale commensurate with the religious iwa nts of the Protestant community."—(Cheers.) For seven hundred years bad the people of Ireland suffered Under this system ; and not merely laboured under specific trievances but had been exposed to all the evils, the heart nriings, turmoils, and dissentions, which must be the result - art exercise of undue power on the one hand, and upon the t other of hopeless degradation.—(Cheers.) Cheers. ) He did not wish 4. 0 _ arouse any unfriendly feelings between the people of the he countries, but he would not conceal from the House that to wards was ashamed of the injustice with which England had acted :Wards Ireland ; and he would not hesitate to assert that there core many cr i mes p er p e t ra ted by the Governments of this untry which those who succeeded to them would have to Q"Diate•—(Hear, hear.) He alluded to the many faults and ct•iities record e d by history as marking the course of policy Which this country had pursued towards Ireland, not for the li nt in of reviving old animosities, not to open old wounds, in order to show the utter impossibility of the Catho -4s of Ireland being ever reconciled to the Government h Great B r i ta i n , whilst it was inseparably connected in t t e ll' minds with wide-spread suffering and humiliation.— °fud cries of " Hear, hear.") The very introduction the Chur c h Establishment into Ireland was founded that a leg a l fi ct i on : it wa s based upon the supposition at the same relations existed between the Church and the People between the pastors and their flocks—as those which prevailed i n re f erence to t h e Ch urc h o f t hi s coun t r y ; and without w hi c h an esta b l i s h e d Ch urc h must b e rece i ve d, n o t , a bles s i ng, b ut a curse.— ( Ch eers .) " T o su ppose," as ord Bacon says.—( Laughter from the Ministerial Benches.) ; i v he re h e was corroborated by what were upon most ques tions consid ere d hi g h aut h or it ies , i n the opinions which he ve ntured to p ronounce, h e t h oug ht he had, upon such an oc casion as the present, as good a right to refer to the senti ments of th ose f rom w h om h e h a d quo t e d as the Right Hon. Baronet had, when he thought it necessary to support his arguments on the Dissenter's Marriage Bill, by an appeal to several authorities which he considered favourable to his view of th e quest i on.—( Hear, hear. ) H e wou ld th e n, with ue , Permission of the House, refer to the opinions of Bacon : ' To suppose that men should live of the flock they do not serve, is a thing that can hardly receive just defence." If they went back to the earliest period of the history of the Church in Ireland, they would find that the people of that country kept aloof from its ministers, and refused their adhe sion to its doctrines. How different were the circumstances which attended the period of the Reformation in the two countries 1—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The people of England were imbued with the doctrines of the Reformation before the transfer of Church property took place.--( Hear) — In Ireland there was no such preparation to induce a willing concurrence in the tenets and establishment of the Church of England.--( Hear, hear.) In England the performance of the worship of the Church was conducted in a tongue which its members understood : in Ireland the adoption of a foreign language was forced upon the people, in place of that in which their worship was celebrated, which, although it was a foreign one, was nevertheless closely associated with their history and their religion.--( Hear, and cheers.) In England, as would be found by the authority of Archbishop Usher, the tithes were divided for four purposes, amongst which, he need scarcely remind the House, were the building expenses of the churches and the support of the poor. In Ireland the people were obliged to pay for the erection of the churches, and the poor were discarded from the precincts of the church.— ( Hear, hear.) How, then, could a Church which was not submitted to, or joined through the force of reason and argu ment, be considered by the people as anything but a badge of conquest, forced on them by a superior power, which it was but natural they should determine to throw off at the first favourable opportunity?—( Cheers.) It was unnecessary for him to dwell upon the utter inability of the Government, at the present day, to collect tithes. The Right Hon. Baronet had the other night admitted the incompetency of the Government to attain that object. He should say no more, therefore, in reference to that question. In arguing upon this subject last year he had adduced some facts, with respect to which he hoped he might be permitted to say, that all the information which he had since received tended to confirm him in the opinion which he had then expressed.—[The Hon. Gentleman here referred to some papers which he was unable to find.) He regretted that he could not read from the papers which he had collected, but was obliged to depend upon his memory for the facts which he was anxious to bring under their no tice. He had received from the Hon. Member for Kildare returns from the whole of the diocese of Ossory, by which it appeared that there was, on an average, but -OneProtes tant to every nineteen Roman Catholics in that diocese.— ( Hear, hear.) He had been further informed that, in some parts of that diocese, the proportion varied from one in 45 to one in 471 ; and that the whole number of the Protes tant p:pulation was 10,433, and of the Roman Catholics 198,781.—(L0ud cheers.) Was he not justified, then, in asking if there was anything resembling such a system in any other part of the world ?—( Hear.) Take the Protestant States, take Catholic ones, take America or France, take Scotland, or even the North of Ireland itself, and it would be found in every instance, that the remuneration which the clergy received was also proportioned to the religious services which they performed for the people.—( Cheers.) In Ireland alone this relation was departed from ; and never until they established that relation upon its proper footing, until they re verted in fact to the principles of common sense, could they succeed in governing that country with credit or satisfaction. —( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had effected one breach in the Constitution of 1688—a breach in that system under which Ireland had so long groaned and for his conduct upon that occasion, the Right Hon Baronet had his sincere gratitude, aud, he was satisfied, the lasting thanks of his country ; but he would ask whether the reasons by which the Right Hon. Baronet had justified his change of opinion upon the question of Catholic Emancipation were not strictly applicable to the subject of the present discussion.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had before appealed to the authority of the Right Hon. Ba ronet upon the question which he had just named ; but he hoped he might be permitted to call the attention of the House to another extract from one of the Right Hon. Baronet's speeches. It was as follows : " The opinions which he had heretofore expressed, he still enter tained; but he must say that, looking to the position of the Government of the country—looking to the position of the Legislature—hioking to the disunion which had prevailed on this subject in his Majesty's Councils—looking to the disunion which had marked the proceedings of the two branches of the Legislature—and looking to the effect which all these causes had produced upon Ireland—he must say that there appeared to him to he sufficient reasons to accept of almost any alter native, rather than endure their continuance." " That things could not, and ought not, to remain as they were ;" " that no Government could be formed on the principle of permanent resistance;" " that there was not the least chance that such a Govern ment could carry through Parliament those measures, which a rigid adherence to the principle would render necessary ;" and that, if per manent resistance to concession were impossible, there only remained one alternative, namely, a consideration of this important question, with a view to effect such a settlement of it as should be satisfactory to all parties."—(Loud cheering.) How forcible, how strikingly applicable was that language to the present position of affairs.—( Hear, and cheers.) There were one or two other points to which he would then refer. The main argument against his proposition last year was that which was based upon the articles of Union between the two countries. The articles which were first drawn up, were in the following words : " And that the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the said United Church, shall be preserved as now by law established for the Church of England ; saving to the Church of Ireland all the rights, privileges, and jurisdictions th,reunto belonging." " The prosperity of the Church of Ireland never can be permanent, unless it be a part of the Union to leave, as a guard, a power to the United Parliament to make some provision in this respect beyond any act of their own that can now be agreed upon." " To leave Parliament an opportunity of considering what may be fit to be done for his Majesty's Catholic subjects, without seeking at present any rule to govern the Protestant Establishment, or making any provi. sion upon that subject."—Speech, 2d April, 1800. He had, however, been told in the discussion which had taken place in the last year, that the guarantee of protection held out by the articles of Union, regarded not merely the discipline of the Church, but its temporalities also; and by the meaning and intention of that Act, the advocates of the Established Church professed themselves willing to stand or fall. Now, he had since looked more closely into the sub ject, and he found that the ground which he had assumed on the former occasion was perfectly fair and tenable. He would read to them the articles of the Union. The treaty was ulti mately drawn with the omission of the saving clause in the article which referred to the protection of the " doctrines, worship, discipline, and Government" of the Irish Church ; but when it was known that in the address of the two blouses to the King, the following words were found, showing the changes which had been effected with regard to the original proposition :—" With the few alterations and additions which we have found it necessary to suggest, we consider these re solutions as fit to form articles of Union between Great Bri tain and Ireland ; and if those alterations and additions shall be approved by the two Houses of the Parliament of Ireland, we are ready to confirm and ratify these articles, in order that the same may be established for ever, by the mutual consent of both Parliaments"—he was of opinion that he had furnished conclusive proofs, with respect to inter ferences with the Church, of the animus of the parties by whom the Union was proposed.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The next point to which he thought necessary to refer, was the assertion that the people of England had little or no in terest in the settlement of this question. He believed that the conviction was not as general as it ought to be that, in doing justice to Ireland, the people of England were but doing justice to themselves.—( Hear.) An Hon. Gentleman, a friend of his, had asked on the hustings, in the county of Cambridge, " What had we to do with Ireland ?" Now the State of the people of Ireland had a great deal more to do with his constituency than perhaps he or they imagined—setting aside every argument which was based upon the principle of justice, and placing in abeyance any appeal which might with fairness be made to the people of the county of Cambridge, by asking them how they would like to be compelled to pay the ministers of a religion from which they dissented? And if such a system were attempted to be carried into practice amongst them, he was very confident that none would exhibit a more formidable passive resistance to the system than would be displayed on the part of the constituency to whom he had alluded. He would just put it to them whether they had ever reflected on the expensive luxury which this Pro testant Established Church in Ireland was to them? — (Loud cheering.) Did they not know—did it never strike them that if the wealth of the Established Church were reduced, there would be reduced also pari passu the expenses of a standing army.—( Loud cheers, and cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial Benches.) Honourable Mem bers cried " No, no l" but he would ask on what intelligible principle but that which had been mentioned, was an Estab lished Church continued in Ireland? When he looked at the force which was necessary to be kept up in the Colonies, he could not imagine for what object but that to which he had alluded, so large a standing army was continued in Ireland— a country separated from us only by a few leagues of water, and capable, he was convinced, of being united to us by every tic of national community and feeling..---( Loud cheers.) The Following was the DISTRIBUTION OF FORCES, 1835. MEN. Army in Ireland 21,078 Abroad, exclusive of India, but including Colonial Corps 34,614 Army in Ireland last year 23,071 GENERAL AND MEDICAL STAFF. Ireland ... 13,485 Nova Scotia, i. e. Nova Scotia and Canada, with all the difficult and delicate questions pending there The West Indies and the Bermudas, including all the addi tional precautions rendered necessary by negro emanci pation Gibraltar, Malta, and the lonian Islands—the keys of the Mediterranean MEN, Africa, the Cape of Good Hope, the Mauritius, Ceylon, and Au5tra1ia........................................................... 10,210 England, Scotland, and Wales ... 21,415 Ireland (alone) ............................................. ....... 21,078 .. It appeared, therefore, that Ireland required two-thirds as much military force as was necessary in England, Scotland, Wales, and all our colonies. Such was the consequence of the unnatural alliance between the army and the Church.—( Loud cries of " No, no," and " Hear, hear.") He might be wrong; but he sincerely believed that if they did justice to Ireland, if they removed all the into lerable grievances under which the great majority of the people of that country laboured, they would relieve Ire land of those discontents which at present vitiated the whole current of the feelings of the Irish people, and might then with perfect safety reduce the military force to an extent which at present it would be dangerous or imoossible to contem plate. With respect to the three modes in which it was pre posed to apply the surplus of the ecclesiastical revenues in that country—namely, the education of the people, the main tenance of charitable institutions, and a provision for the Ca tholic clergy—the best course which they could now take was to establish the principle of appropriation, and when the exist ing establishment was properly reduced, then, temperately and from time to time, determine in what manner the surplus revenue should be applied.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Such an • / THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 31, 1835. appropriation of Chui ch property would be conformable to the principles which had been acted upon in all the States of Europe. If the Legislature found in process of time, as circumstances changed, that new wants and new claims sprung up, they had not only the right, but it was their bounden duty, to take such measures as might meet those wants and satisfy those claims, so as to leave no class of their fellow-subjects cause for just complaint.—( Hear, hear, hear.) We had most wisely, most justly, and most pru dently consulted the wishes in these respects of the people of Hanover, of Canada, and other places. Surely the right which had been conceded to minor portions of the Empire, we ought not to withhold from six millions of our fellow-subjects in so important a part of the empire as Ireland. Every right but this had, one by one, been restored to the people of Ireland. The Legislature had done them justice in every point but one. Let it, however, be remembered that their power to withhold that one point had diminished in proportion as the other rights of the people of Ireland had been restored to them.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) They had given the Catholics political freedom ; how was it to be expected that they would not exer cise that power for the attainment of religious freedom ? ( Hear, hear, hear.) He was by no means desirous of ren dering the establishment of Ireland Catholic.—( Hear, hear. ) The Catholics themselves preferred the voluntary principle. But what he wished was to see a different application of a large portion of the revenues of the present establishment. It was not a trifling measure that would be sufficient ; all must be done that ought to be done. When once the principle of concession was admitted, there ought to be no limit to concession but that which justice prescribed.-- ( Hear, hear.) But why should he for a moment anticipate that such would not be the case ? Why should he for a mo ment believe that the House of Commons would not do the Irish people the justice to which they were entitled ?—( Hear, hear.) He once more warned those who thought that the re quired concessions would be dangerous to the Church Este- Irlishment of this country, not to fight the battles of the Eng lish Church upon Irish ground.—( Hear, hear.) They had a great deal in their power as respected the Protestant Esta blishment of England. They had not, they never bad, and they never could have, a great deal in their power as respected the Protestant Establishment of Ireland. Four-fifths of the population of Ireland were anxiously expecting justice. He sincerely hoped and believed, that by the decision of that night they would not be disappointed ; on the contrary, he sincerely hoped and believed that the decision of that night would hold out the expectation of measures which not only the welfare but the very existence of the integrity of the empire demanded. The Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering. Mr. LEFROY and Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose together; but the House calling loudly on the latter, Mr. LEFROY sat down. Sir JAMES GRAHAM expressed his concurrence in the opinions expressed on this subject by the" Right Hon. Sec retary at War. He had very peculiar feelings on the ques tion ; connected as it was with religious and conscientious scruples, which, while they bound individuals, ought not in his opinion to be made too much the topic of public discus sion. The Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had told the House that the present was a vital question. To him ( Sir J. Graham) it had been a fatal question.—( A laugh, and cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") He knew from what quarter that sneer proceeded. Was that the answer which he so soon received to his appeal for the candid indulgence of the House?—( Hear, hear.) He repeated that to him this had been a fatal question. It had hurled him from power. But it had done much more. It had severed him from his closest political connections. It had suspended, it had threat ened, but he trusted it would not dissolve, some of his earliest friendships. The declaration might exclude him for ever from public life; but he was convinced, with the Honourable Member for St. Albans, that the question was one of such vital importance, that it would admit of no compromise whatever.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He had, while he had the honour to be a Member of the Ca binet, carried his concessions as far as he could ; he would carry them no farther now.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem ber for St. Albans had characterized the present proceeding as a trial of the confidence which the House reposed in the pre sent Administration. On this point he begged to say, that in his opinion, in the present crisis, no Government could be formed, or could exist on an y basis, but the broad one of per fect agreement as to the course to be pursued with reference to the Church Establishment of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) One of the principal reasons which had influenced him to give Go vernment his support throughout the present Session of Par liament, was mainly founded on the sentiments expressed on the subject of the Protestant Church Establishment in Eng land and Ireland by his Right Honourable Friend at the head of the Government, in his letter to his constituents.—( Hear.) Unquestionably he agreed with the Hon. Member for St. Al bans, that it was most desirable to arrive at a settlement of the question ; but by what mode, was the point at issue. The argument of the Honourable Member for St. Albans was cer tainly very liberal, if not lax. It might be resolved into this, " I am not very particular as to the purpose of the appropria tion. Give it to charitable institutions, give it to education, give it to anything so long as you take it from the Protes tant Church."—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentle man laid his principle down as a general proposition, applica ble not only to the Church of Ireland, but to all corporations ; maintaining that if that principle were not recognised, it would be a bar to all future alterations in such corporotions. It was that statement which filled him ( Sir James Graham) with alarm.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was because if the proposition were adopted there would be no bar to ulterior proceedings with respect to corporations generally, that it was his inten tion to vote with his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary at War, The Hon. Member for St. Albans said that this was the first step, and that he trusted the House would pronounce in its favour. That it was the first step—that it was the commence ment of a course of measures trenching on all local property, and on all the security of the Church Establishment—it was that filled him ( Sir J. Graham) with alarm, and compelled him, as a conscientious man, to oppose it.—( Hear, hear.) Nor did he feel it possible to consider the question apart altogether from the time and circumstances under which it was brought forward. His Noble Friend the Member for Devonshire had declared that he was friendly to the Church of England. But he must be allowed to ask his Noble Friend if he was confi dent that the great body of those who were prepared to support his Noble Friend's motion could with equal truth declare that they were friendly to the Church of England? —( Hear, hear, hear.) He must remind the House that the last Session a motion was made so unfavourable to the Church of England, as even to propose the exclusion of the. Bishops from the House of Lords; and that in favour of that motion one member of the then existing Government voted.— ( Hear, hear.) Had they not repeatedly heard the question mooted in that House, whether what was called the voluntary principle was not preferable to the connection between Church and State ?—( Hear, hear.) He asked the House to look at the occurrences of former times. He asked the House to look at the days when the Bishops . were expelled from the House of Lords ; when the connection between the Church and the State was dissolved ; when the voluntary principle was substituted for that connection. Had the history of those days been written in vain ? What were the terms i n which a' sceptical historian had spoken of them ? " Gaiety and wit were proscribed : human learning despised : free dom of inquiry detested : cant and hypocrisy alone en couraged " After the long prevalence of civil war, anarchy, and bloodshed, the people, finding themselves without hope of tranquillity, made an unconditional surrender of their liberties, and fled to the Throne for shelter and protec t;on. He certainly could not believe that the lesson to be derived from those occurrences would be thrown away. He was bound, however, distinctly to admit that there was a difference between the grounds on which Church property and the grounds on which private property stands. That distinc tion had been ably stated by his Noble Friend the Member for Devonshire, when citing Hallam's opinion on the subject. It was stated by that writer that hereditary property was clothed with a kind of fictitious immortality, and could not be inter fered with by the Legislature ; but that the ultimate destina tion of property in mortmain, with reference to which there was not so intimate a connection between one proprietor and his successor, might be changed by the State. But then he added, " That Church property was, like other property, vested in trustees for certain uses; and, like that property, the des tination of it could be changed only within the limit of those uses." The question then was, what were the uses to which the property of the Church Establishment in Ireland was limited?—( Hear, hear.) The property of the Church Esta blishment was granted to that Establishment for the mainte nance and propagation of the Protestant religion. He had no difficulty in saying that Church Reform i n Ireland, and in Eng land, too, was justifiable under this limitation—that the pro perty was to be re-distributed for the benefit of the Church.— ( Hear.) As long as the re-distribution was for purposes strictly for the benefit of the Protestant Church, Parliament had decidedly the power to reform, and, in his opinion, might use that power advantageously. But what had been done with respect to Church property in Ireland ? It had been stated that the amount of tithes in Ireland was 800,0001. But the Hun. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin had demonstrated, in a speech last Session, which, in his ( Sir James Graham's) opinion, was unanswerable, that 620,000/. was about their actual amoisnt. On this a charge of 70,000/. had been removed from the land to the Church Commission. A tax had been imposed on all benefices, of from three to fif teen per cent. What was the principle of that tax ? It was to meet cases in which the Protestant minister of a p arish might be in the receipt of a large revenue, with few or no Pro testant parishioners. Two years ago it had been determined by Parliament, that were divine service had not been perform ed in any parish between 1830 and 1833, on the next vacancy the Ecclesiastical Commission should suspend the filling up of the living, and should appoint a curate ; and that. after the payment of that curate's stipend, the surplus revenue of the benefice should go to the general purposes of the Commis sion. In consenting to this plan, lie strained his conscience as far as :he could upon the principle of appropriation.—( A laugh from the Opposition, and a elLeer from Lord Stanley.) That concession was made for the sake of union and har mony ; and none of his former colleagues, or of those who left office with him, could say that in .his present resistance to the proposed change of appropriation in Church property, he was acting at variance with the language he had held in private, or with the measures he had agreed to. It was no matter of surprise to him that those who were generally hostile to the Established Church, should make the first as sault on the Irish portion of that Church ; for in Ireland it was the religion of a local minority set up in a country where the great majority of the inhabitants were Catholics. --(Cheers from the Reformers.) He fairly admitted, there fore, that they were wise in selecting a weak point of attack ; and although those who thought with him had to defend it at disadvantage, he was mistaken if was not the key to the po sition of the Church Establishment ; and in his conscience he believed, that if the House allowed of this altered appro priation, not only in a short time would the Protestant re ligion cease to exist as the established religion of Ireland, but incidentally they would introduce a principle fatal to the existence of the Established Church here also.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Alf he wished was to have the Church property dealt with upon the same principle as other pro perty. Let the house, consider then, in what light they should regard such a proposition as this applied to other trust pro perty. The Corporation of Liverpool was possessed of large property which it applied to the improvement of the commerce and the trade of that emporium ; but it had now almost ex hausted the possibility of improving the quays and docks of that great harbour. A year or two ago the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin was exceedingly anxious to have a ship canal made from Dublin to Kingstown. The trade of Dublin was incidentally connected with that of Liverpool— but what would any rational man have said to a proposition for applying the surplus revenues of the Corporation of Live r p ool to the construction of the Dublin ship canal.—( Cries of Oh.) A Commission of which the Hon. and Learned Member was a member, appointed to deal with Corporation property, would no doubt speedily make the Dublin ship canal , and reduce the Liverpool surplus to a deficiency.—( Hear.) But the surplus of the Church of Ireland, with which Honourable Members contemplated dealing, could not exceed one hundred thousand pounds. The extraordinary eagerness manifested upon that subject, could not be for the sake of getting at this small sum, but for the sake of the principle.—(Hear, and loud cheering.) If Honourable Members opposite, had got hold of a surplus, and were to have entirely their own way, what would they do with so pitiful sum ? His firm con viction was, that they wished to take it, not because the State was poor, but because the Church was rich—(Mingled cries of " Hew-, hear," and " No, no")—not that the State might gain, but that the Church might lose.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Admit this, and at once you break down the great doctrine of meum and Inure, the foundation of all property, the object of all Government to maintain, and which if you once relax, you receded from civilization to barbarism.—( Hear, hear.) On the subject of the supposed riches of the Irish clergy, he begged to refer to a document to which his Noble Friend at least would not object, for it was prepared by Mr. Erck under the direction of the Government, of which they were both mem bers in 1832. It appeared from that paper that there were altogether 1,450 livings in Ireland, from 1,123 of which only had returns been received. Of these 570, or one half of those from which returns had been obtained, were under 2501. per annum in value ; 854 of the number were un der 450/. in value, and 948 under 950/. in value ; leaving only 175 above that value. This was before the plan for taxing livings above a certain value was resolved upon ; but supposing taxes averaging 30 per cent. were imposed upon the livings which would come under the operation of the Act of Parliament, four-fifths of all the livings referred to in that return were under 400/. in value. As long as the produce was applied to Protestant purposes, he saw no limit, but the discre tion of Parliament, to this principle of taxing livings. It might be said that all Protestant uses must have been exhausted. He was informed, however, that there were many unions of pa rishes in Ireland, which were not favourable to the maintenance and spread of Protestantism, and as long as there were such union, which might be properly dissolved, there would be Protestant uses for the produce of this species of taxation. But in addition to demands of that nature, he could well con ceive that it might be very properly made a question whether the million loan to the Irish clergy might not be obtained back from this surplus fund.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Eng land and of Scotland had a right to look for repayment of this sum ; and as it was a strictly ecclesiastical purpose, he saw no objection in principle to its being made a kind of rent-charge on ecclesiastical property. The Honourable Member far St. Albans had alluded to the article of the Union with Ire land which related to this subject. Now, although he did not consider Acts of Parliaments as unalterable, as the laws of the Modes and Persians, and the Act of Union had been at different times trenched upon, he did look upon the article relating to this subject as peculiarly binding. The contract e entered into at the Union was with a Legislature ex clusively Protestant, which would never have consented to the Union but upon this condition. This was a consideration which made him look with jealousy at the first step, as he considered this proposition, to the establishment of the Ca tholic religion as the religion of the State in Ireland, and the dissolution of the union which now existed between the Churches of the two countries.—( Cheers.) The late Lord Minto, in a speech made before the Union with Ireland, uttered some observations which were peculiarly in point on this subject. [The Right Hon. Baronet then read a part of Lord Minto's speech on the Union with Ireland, in con firmation of his view of the importance to be attached to the article relating to the Church.] He knew it would be attempted to be argued, that the introduction of the question of the truth of a religion was inconsistent with religious tole ration. As respected civil rights, religious opinions should be no ground for departing from the most perfect equality ; but as respected the question of establishing a favoured reli gion as the religion of the State, it was impossible to exclude the consideration of its truth. It was said that the proposition before them was intended to produce peace. If, indeed, peace were to be produced, lie could understand a proposition for at once establishing Catholicism in Ireland upon Paley's prin ciple ; but this was a trifling change, dangerous in principle, but too insignificant in effect to be productive of peace, sup posing peace likely to be produced by any such measure as this. Let the Noble Lord choose from how many parishes of Ireland lie would remove the Ministers. Would he withdraw them from a fourth of the parishes of Ireland ? The Noble Lord did not seem to say whether that would satisfy him, but he could not believe that, carrying his principles as far as he desired, he would go beyond that. What then was to become of the peace of the remaining three-fourths of Ireland ? Every thing was to remain in statu quo; Protestant ministers were to remain surrounded by a large proportion of Catholic population, and the amount of tithe was everywhere to be undiminished. This, then, would not be a measure of peace If they were to waive a great prin ciple, then do it for some distinct object. Let it be put to the Repre sentatives of the sister kingdom, whether they think it expedient, with a view to politics or religion, that the union between the Church of En g land and the Church of Ireland should be severed, and that the Catholic religion should be estiblished in the sister country with the view of obtaining peace. That would be intelligible; but he would then ask whether they had not been promised this peace before ? (Cheers). He begged to refer them to the evidence given before the Committee which sat on the state of Ireland by the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, and a Learned Divine, now no more. The Right Hon. Baronet then read extracts from the evidence given by Mr. Shell and Dr. Doyle, with a view to show that those gentlemen were then of opinion, that if Catholic Emancipation were granted, there would be no more agitation there, either on the subject of repeal or of tithes It was now his duty to show how completely those hopes had been falsified, and those promises forgotten. He should proceed to read the sentiments published by another Roman Catholic clergyman in 1833—he alluded to the publication of Dr. INPHaIe, in which the Rev. Gentleman spoke of the effects that would be produced by the mea sure of Catholic Emancipation. In 1833, when the Roman Catholic population were in the enjoyment of a perfect equality of civil rights with their Protestant fellow-countrymen, these were the sentiments expressed by a Roman Catholic prelate :—" Att er a ll th e evils that have been heaped upon this devoted land, it is some consolation to re flect that the legislative axe has been laid to the root of the Established Church. The pruners of the ecclesiastical vineyard have not read the Roman history in vain. The baneful plants which poisoned by their narcotic influence the wholesome vegetation around are laid low ; and this, doubtless, is the prelude to a larger and more extensive prostra tion." He (Sir James G ra h a m) thou g ht that the Reverend G e ntleman spoke that in a spirit of prophecy, intending to allude to the proposition they were then discussing.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He continued:—" With every step of refocus existing abuses will be removed, until it is hoped not a vestige of the mighty nuisance will remain." That, lie imagined, was the removal of the na tional g rievances of which they had heard so much that night ; he (Sir James Graham) was a very sincere Protestant : he believed the hon. and learned member for Dublin to be a very sincere Catholic, and how ever some of that creed might havedeemed it expedient, for the sake of forwarding the views which they entertained, to disguise or conceal those sentiments, he ( Sir. O'Connell) at least had never dissembled his ; but, on the contrary, had declared them deliberately, plainly, and in the strongest and most direct terms that the English language would at:. f or d. He would first read a letter of the Hon. and Learned Member to Mr. Sharman Crawford, now a Member of this House. It was upon the subject of the Tithe Bill introduced during the administration of Lord Melbourne, and was dated from Derrinane Abbey, lOth October, 1834. It was its these terms :—" It was quite true that I demanded, .1 ."--- . gentry, he thought it would not be difficult to prove that the existence of a resident clergy, composed of well-educated men, over whom the prin ciple of restraint was constantly exercised, and whose morals were un. impeached, spending their income amongst their parishioners, and set ting an ( xample of piety aY d virtue, so far from being an evil, was a po_ sitive good.—(Hear, hear.) He found a strong testimony to that fact in a quarter where he should least expect to have found it—he found it iE the evidence of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin himself. —(Hear, hear.) In 1825. when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was examined as to the magistracy of Ireland, this question was put to him —" Is it not necessary at present to have clergymen magistrates in some parts of Ireland, from the want of other fit and proper persons to perform the magisterial functions ?" What was the answer ? "Certainly it is ; the rectors of the Established Church (he, Sir James Graham begged the House to observe this) were generally gentlemen of education, and constituted, as a part of the magistracy, in particular in- , . stances, a most respectable and befitting class."—( Ministerial cheers.) Now, continued the Right lion. Baronet, it will be said that in the line I am on this occasion pursuing, Jam departing from those Whig princi ples which I ever since I entered into public life, and have always en tertained, and to which I flatter myself (vainly it will be said by the other side of the House) I still adhere. What are the doctrines—what the principles of the ‘Vhigs ? lam speaking in the presence of a mem- ber of the illustrious house of Russell— (Hrar, hear) —a house not less distinguished for its love of freedom than for its attachment to the Pro testant religion if in the presence of such a man I may venture to de fine the principles of the Whigs, I should say that they consist in a bold assertion of the utmost freedom both of faith and action in all matters, whether of state or religicn, to the fullest extent consistent with law, order, and constitutional submission.—(Cheers.) No death's head and cross bones denunciations—(Great cheering)—to control the free ex ercise of the elective franchise—no prayer addressed to Heaven—(Hear, hear, hear)—to withhold its mercy from the man bold enough to defy the denunciation— (Cheers)—and to vote as his conscience dictated.—(Cheers.) The principles of the Whigs, if I understand them, consist no less of a love of liberty, than of a jealousy of the Ca tholic religion as an engine of power, whenever it steps forth and arro. gates to itself the right of ascendancy; and, above all, I conceive those principles to consist in a warm and uncompromising attachment to the Protestant religion, as by law established in this land.—(Cheers.) I have but one more topic to allude to :—I have told the House that I have a religious feeling upon the subject ; let me now add, that I think the property set apart by our ancestors, whether in England or Ireland, for the purpose of maintaining in perpetuity the Protestant religion, is sacred, and must be applied to that purpose.—(Ministerial cheers.) More than that, I say that those who administer at the altar have a right to live by the altar.—(Cheers.) I say that that principle is as high as heaven, and you cannot touch it—(Cheers) —it is as strong as the Almighty, and you cannot overturn it—it is as fast as the Eternal, and can never cease to bind you—(Cheers)—it is fixed in you as Chris. tian men, and as Christian legislators can never fail to actuate you. This Is the view that I take of the principle of the question which we are called on to decide, and I for one will declare that no consideration on earth shall induce me to compromise or to destroy it.—(Cheers.) Lord HOWICK had listened with the greatest attention to the whole of the arguments his Right Hon. Friend had that night advanced, and he confessod that, having done so, he was totally at a loss to know how his Right Hon. Friend had arrived at his conclusion when compared with some of the principles which he had laid down.—(Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend had stated explicitly that he agreed with those general views of corporate property expressed by his Noble Friend the Member for Devonshire, and quoted from Hallam upon this ques tion. He stated distinctly that corporate property, made for a certain use, had no resemblance to personal property ; that it was placed upon a different foundation ; and that property being granted for certain uses, it was the buslness of the Legislature to see if it answered those uses. Then said his Right Hon. Friend. " the property of the Church of Ireland was granted for this use, and that use was to maintain the Pro testant 1 hurch in Ireland." He might find some little fault with this definition if he were disposed to do so. He might say that this property was given, not merely for the purpose of propagating, maintaining, and upholding the Protestant religion in Ireland, but it was given for the purpose of bringing the characters and minds of the Irish population under the influence of the high and exalted motives of religion. It was to promote the general welfare, the peace, and the order of the whole community, that this property was set apart for the maintenance of the Church of Ireland. He did not mean to narrow the question, as even he might do, and take it upon the statement of his Right Hon. Friend. His Right Hon. Friend said that the property was given to maintain the Protestant religion in Ireland. He would ask his Right lion. Friend, had it so maintained that Protestant religion ?—(Hear, and cheers.) His Noble Friend the Member for Devonshire had given that night a statement of the progress—the fearfully progressive decline of Protestantism in Ireland under the present system. He remem bered the Right Baronet (Sir R. Peel), in speaking of Catholic emanci pation, asked the same question respecting the penal laws under which the Catholics then laboured—he then asked, had that system succeeded in propagating Protestantism—had those laws which inflicted disabili. ties served it? Ile would say the same of the present system. He would say, " Loak to the statement of his Noble Friend, and then let it be declared whether that system propagated Protestantism in Ire- - - - [and "—(Hear, and cheers.) That should not be deemed by him a mat_ - - • - for the present, but a partial reduction—it was three-tiftlis—of the tithes. Why did I ask fur no more ? Why did I not demand the abs itian of the entire? Because I had no chance" ,and here again we have the Hon. Member for St. Albans using the saute language), " in the first instance of getting the entire abolished ; and you perceive that I was refused the extent which I asked, being three tifihs, and only got from the House of Commons two-fifths. I had, therefore, not the least prospect or possibility of destroying the entire, and because I am one of those who have been always ready to accept of any instalment, however small, of the debt of justice due to the people—the real national debt"—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Did the Hon. Gentleman mean to say that tithes were a debt due to the people of Ireland? But Mr. O'Connell proceeded:—" I have been and am ready to accept of any instahnent of that debt, determined to go on, and look for the remainder as soon as the first instalment should be completely realised. It is totally untrue that I acquiesced in the per petual continuance of the remaining three-fifths of the tithes " These were very ominous words, and after what was read from this same letter by the Right Hon Member for Tamsvorth respecting the character of Lord John Russell, Lord Melbourne, and Lord Duncannon, he (Sir James Graham) was at a loss to know what the Honourable and Learned Gentleman meant by the next paragraph in the let ter, for it was to this effect:—" The honest and reflecting part of the Ministry must perceive that tithes must be abolished— totally, unequivocally abolished—abolished without delay or condi tion." Such was the bold and undisguised declaration of the Hon. and Learned Member in October last. It was obvious taat tithes must be totally extinguished without delay. Nothing iould be more clear — nothing more explicit. Did the Hon. and Learned Member leave them more in the (1,1 - k with respect to the question of appropriation ? Upon that point there appeared to be some difference of opinion between the Hon. and Learned Member and the Hon. Member for St. Albans. At all events the plan of appropriation opened by the Hon Member for St. Albans bore no resemblance to that put forward by the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin. In a letter front Derrinane Abbey, also addressed to Mr. Sharman Crawford, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman expre.scd himself in these terms :—" My plan is, apply the funds derived trom this quarter (meaning the Church) to the relief of the occupiers of the land from Grand Jury cess, and to defray all the expenses of dispen saries, infirmaries, hospitals, asylums, and other charitable in stitutions." Thi.s, according to the Honourable and Learned Mem ber's view, the whole tithes of Ireland were to be granted to the occupiers of the lard, in order to enable them to do that which it was a question whether they were not now bound to do as well by law as by the common dictates of humanity. On the 31st of July, 1834, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman again wrote to Mr. Crawford in these terms :—" It was only last night that the Ministers allowed"—(this was a curious expression, coming front the lion. and Learned Gentleman)— " the House of Commons to strike out Ss. in the pound of Irish tithes. Did the people of England understand whet that meant ? Why should not Ss. be as good in the pockets of the people of England as in the Pockets of Paddy ? Let us go on. he King yielded to the voice of the people before, and why should he not do so again ?—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after some other observations, proceeded as follows :—" The hereditary legislative body ought to be done away with. Both Houses ought to be representatives of the people. Two !louses of Parliament elected by the people were necessary to give fixity to the lit.ertios of the people." If there could be any mistake as to what the lion. and Learned Member intended by those expressions, he did not long leave his correspondent in doubt. He (Sir James Graham) did not know how the Hon. and Learned Member could re concile the principle that he then professed with that professed by his Noble Leader now —(Cheers.) lie did not know whether the leader had adopted the principle of the follower, or the follower had shaped his to that of the leader.--(Laughter and cheers.) At all events, on the Ist of October hut these were the words addressed by the Hon. and La arhea Gentlema , to , his usual correspondent :—" My object is to establish a principle. It is, that every denomination of Christians should support their own sp ritual instructors." Taken negatively, "That no one Christian should be compelled to maintain the spiritual guide of an other." This is our principle, " our great principle."—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) He (Sir James Graham) bad heard the Hon. and Learned Member explain that principle still more distinctly in his place in Parliament. Ile had heard him expoutid it in this way ; that he hoped to see the day in this country, when every clergynrm, should be paid like the lawyer or the physician, by the fee for the ',GI, —(Cheers.) Now he (Sir James Graham' did not wish to allude 'Asti diously to anything that had fallen from the Hon. and Learned mem ber ; but when he saw the manner in which the principles which th e Hon. and Learned Gentleman contended for had worked amougst the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland, he could not abstain fre,m ex pressing a hope that the melancholy day its which such a principle should obtain in England might be long deferred. He wuulr i now se- turn for a moment to the condition of Protestant clergy in Ire_ land. He had already endeavoured to show what that condition really was, atid how much it had sometimes been misrepresented. Now Le contended that if they were to have an established rerigion, and mi nisters of that religion resident in every parish, two, things were ne cessary—first, that the provision for the parson should be placed be. yond the caprice of his parishioners ; and. secondly, that the amount of the provision should be sufficient to maintain him in a station of independence—(llcar, hear)--he would add, sufficient to maintain not only the parson, but the parson's family—for under ti.e Protestant Establishment marriage was encouraged amongst the clergy, and ex. perience proved that an unmarried priesthood was an unholy priest hood.—(Hear, hear.) Placing it thus upon high and religious grounds, he would not condescend to argue the point upon any lower one—he would not discuss it as one of political expediency. But as one of the greatest evils of Ireland was declared to be the absence of the resident ter of surprise. He could not be surprised at the people of Ireland feeling it as a grievance and an insult to them that the large property of the Church should be entirely devoted to the Clergy of a creed which was alien to them. He could not be surprised, he must say, that the people of Ireland were ill-disposed to receive that creed. — (Hear, hear.) But that was not the only cause, as it seemed to him, of the decline of Protestantism. He had only to look to what daily passes in Ireland, and what, he was sorry to say, passed in that house upon the Irish debates. He had only to look to those proceedings, to be convinced that the present state of things in Ireland was not merely calculated to prevent the propagation of the Protestant religion in be. land, but must be most deeply injurious to the true interests of Protes tantism even among Protestants themselves.—(Hear.) He was not the person to say that the manner in which the tax for the support of the Protestant Church was collected was the only thing to be condemned. He confessed that he deeply sympathised with the Irish people in the grievances they had to complain of; but he did say that those grievances had provoked from some amongst them attacks upon the Church, con ducted with more acrimony and much greater violence than the provo cation itself warranted.—(Hear.) But if this were the case with those who attacked the Church, what were they to say in that House of those who were its defenders ? They would see in the Irish newspapers ac counts of great Protestant meetings—speeches were delivered at those meetings—above all, speeches were delivered by Protestant Clergymen at those meetings—speeches in which those Clergyman addressed them selves to their partizans, and endeavoured to increase still more the bit terness of that acrimony with which they were influenced—speeches containing and breathing a spirit the very reverse of the spirit of peace and of the Gospel.—(Hear, hear.) When he spoke thus of those men, he could not help feeling that the worst effects must fall back upon themselves, whatever might be their motives, or whatever injustice they supposed was intended to be committed towards them. He did not mean to blame the individual Clergymen ; he thought it was not the fault of the individual, but of the system. Placed in the situation in which they were, it was hardly possible that they could do otherwise than fall into error. But the Right Honourable Baronet, in arguing what he termed the alienation of Church property, asked would they give a portion of it for making a ship canal from Kingstown to Dublin ? And would that be consistent with justice? He had a right to ask the Bight Hon. Baronet another question. ould he, supposing this_ to . „ be a possible case—that the property of the Corporation of Liverpool was not in the tolls upon the vessels coming into harbour, but in the rates of lands and tithes—he would suppose also that this property was given to the Corporation of Liverpool, for the purpose of removing the impediments to the navigation of the river and harbour—that in course of time, and from natural causes, the navigation of the river became a matter of the greatest difficulty, from the constant accumulation of sands cast up by the sea—would the Right Honourable Gentleman maintain that—under such circumstances—he would oppose the property of the Corporation of Liverpool being applied to any other purpose but the hopeless one of reducing sand-banks, and continually striving to force back the waves of the ocean— (Loud cries of hear, hear)—and this, until Liverpool should be as deserted as the condemed Old Sarum, or like some of the Cinque Ports, to which no ship could now come within three or four miles ? Would the Right Lion. Baronet assert that the Corporation property, its rates and tithes, should only be applied to the purposes for which they were granted? Would he come down with some old charter and tell them that there it was laid down the property was originally given for the harbour of Liverpool, and, no matter how useless might now be its application, he must sanction the principle by his support, and not consent to any alienation from the original purposes ?—(Hear.) His Right Hon. Friend would embark in a contest which was equally hope less and futile ; he would maintain the property in support of the Pro testant Church of Ireland, in spite of the feelings and wishes of nine_ tenths of the population of that country; he would snake the property intended to diffuse the benefits of peace and civilization throughout that country—such a property he would make the means of deluging the whole of the kingdom of Ireland in blood, and rendering it a scene of confusion and disorder from one end to the other.—( Hear, and cheers.) Ilis Right Hon, Friend acknowledged the principle laid down by Paley, that the religion of the State should be the religion of the majority ; but then his Right Hon. Friend said it should be of the majority of the whole of the country. That, be confessed from a Gentleman who came from so near the Scotch borders, was a proposition which not a little astonished him —(Hear, and laughter.) Why, then, as such was the opinion Of his Right Hon. Friend, did he not come down to that House with a Bill recommending and sanctioning that principle and recommence the same project which was so foolishly undertaken by the Stuarts for converting the Scotch Presbyterians into Episcopa lians ?—(Laughter.) On his own principles, his Right Hon. Friend was bound to do this.—(Laughter.) But his Right Hon. Friend said, it might be very well to talk of applying that property if its uses for Pro testantism were exhausted in Ireland. That doctrine sounded to him as very extraordinary. Did his Right Hon. Friend mean that so long as there was a single Protestant in the whole of Ireland (having shown that property was'given for the good of the whole and not of a part)— that so long as that was the case, no application of that property would be made for the benefit of the nation at large ?—(Hear, and cheers.) If that was the doctrine his Right Hon. Friend meant to lay down, he could not comprehend it.—(Hear.) But his Right Hon. Friend had taken up another ground for maintaining the present condition of the Protestant religion as it was established in Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend called upon that House to decide which was the true faith. Ile was not a little astonished to find his Right Hon. Friend venture upon this ground. Did his Right Hon. Friend mean to convert that House into an arena for theological discu,sions ? Did he mean to bring under his arm huge volumes of his Fathers, while he and the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin should contend which was the true faith, the Protestant or the Catholic ?—(Cheers and laughter.) Now it might possibly happen (though his opinion was otherwise), but it might by possibility happen, that the opinion of the House would be ad verse to his Right Hon. Friend.—(Laughter.) And would, then, his Right Hon. Friend be prepared to say, that he would allow the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, if he succeeded in showing the Catholic to be the true Church, that it would be made the established Church in Ire. land?—(Cheers and laughter.) Would his Right Hon. Friend follow out the principle to that result P But he had seen his Right Hon. Friend ///) <u&thp-)Hon,, Nlpmhor. hn the Canada Committee, and he had never heard from him an clij c. tioa against the CrAliolic Church as being the established religion in that coutl►.ry. If Protestantism acre, in his Right Hon. Friend's opinion, the true religion—if he were to adhere to it as the true religion, and as Arch to force it upon others, why should not his Right Hon. Friend have added this cause of vexation (which possibly was wanting in Lower Ca nada) by abolishing the Cathode and establishing the Protestant Church there?—(Cheers.) lie confessed that he was grieved and surprised that any man calling himself a Protestant, should conic down with such lan. guage as they had heard from Lis Right lien. Ft lend. He always thought that one of the greatest services accomplished by the authors ofthe Refbr. !nation was their emancipating the human mind from the fetters it had long groaned under, and establishing conclusively the right of private judg. meat. And yet, after this, was a Protestant to interfere with the private and conscientious opinion of another Is it because they were a ma jority, then, that they had a right to insult the people of Ireland by talking to them of toleration ?—( Hear, hear.) He did say that it was an insult to talk to any man of toleration—(Hear, hear.) For his own part he was a sincere and conscientious Protestant. He not only dl'. seined from the Catholic Church, but he would say (and he was sure the Catholics in that House would not be offendcxl for his saying so) that he owned he was not able by any effort of his mind to ima . iine how men could reconcile themselves to the superstitions of the Catholic creed— it appeanxl to him to be a lamentable corruption of the purity of the Christian faith. Was he to be reproached for intolerance in avowing his opinions He was no less convinced of the propriety of his own opinions than he was of the sincerity of those woo entertained opinions quite opposite, and this would never lead to any difference between them. —(Hear.) For he would. putting aside all ungenerous attempts on the part of one man against the right of another—giving up all attempts at proselytism—looking steadily to those principles which were the foun dation of all Christian faith, he would leave it to time, discussion. and reason, to discover which religion was the true one—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet put his defence upon the ground that the Church of England rested upon its public utility, and the affections of the English people. He was happy to believe that the reform promised by the Right Honouroble Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would increase its utility, and give more force to the hold it had upon the affections of the people of England. But it was only upon its utility and the affections of the people that the Church of England could ever rest. If, unfortunately, those foundations should fail, it would be in vain for the Right Hon. Baronet, or fur any of than, to endeavour, by pi - caching the excellence of its doctrines and the purity of its discipline, to maintain it.•—(l;ear.) His Right Hon. Friend had alluded to some letter written by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin on the sub. ject of tithes. It might be said he concurred in the principles laid down in that letter. He unhesitatingly avowed that he did not. He said, further, that it was because he wished tithe property to be preserved that he supported the proposition of his Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) It was idle to conceal that the real grievance of the Irish people was not the manner in which the tithes were collected—it could not be abated by removing them from the tenant to the landlord.—(Hear, hear.) He had listened with great attention to the speech of the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer, the Secretary for Ireland, in introducing his Resolutions respecting tithes, and he did not rind, in the course f that speech, the assertion made that it was on the ground of the manner of their collection that the people disliked them. —(Hear, hear.) He admitted to his Right Honourable Friend, that there was a considerable mistake on the subject of tithes. He ad mitted that the people regarded them as a tax. He admitted that there would be no benefit to the great body of the people by their remission, as, from the great compt•tition for land, it would be thrown into the hands of the landlord.—(Hear.) But did it follow from th:.t, that there was no real grievance ? He was slow to believe that there was great and permanent discontent for a long series of years amongst a people without any foundation. The people might be deceived as to the real grounds of their grievances; they might be still more easily deceived as to the best remedies for them.—(Hear.) So he believed in respect to the Irish. He believed that the people of Ireland groaned under the griev ance he had already mentioned, that a property intended for the most useful purposes, and to he beneficial to all, had been applied in a manner to be useful to none.—(Cheers.) It was acknowledged to be of no use to the Catholics, and from the reasons which he had taken the liberty to state, it was not conducted nor managed for the real interests of Pro.. test. nts.—(Elear.) He believed it would be better for the peace and ' • permanent interests of Protestantism that the property should be swept away, rather than it should continue the subject of the strife and struggle which now prevailed in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.: In 1831, they were told by a high authority, the Bishop of Ferns, that it was not the mode in which tithes were paid that were objected to in Ireland, but there should not be any such revenue. In 1832, Mr. Brown low told his Noble Friend, then Secretary for Ireland, when introducing his Bill upon this subject, that he would entirely fail, unless he consented to give up the whole. It was in the hope that the question would be settled, he voted in support of his Noble Friend's Bill. The warning of Mr. Brownlow had proved too well founded. Tithes never since then had been fully collected, and at that moment it was utterly hopeless to do so. A new attempt was now made to preserve the property still re maining. That was the very last attempt to settle it. The difficulties of the question were increased by the colleagues of the Right Hon. Be. ronet opposite, for when they rejected the Bill of last year, they made it utterly impossible to secure that property, unless they were prepared to yield to the just demands of the Irish people.—(Hear.) This was an an. saver to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, which consisted of per. sonalities from the beginning to the end. Upon the Member for St. Albans motion last year the previous question was voted. The resolu tion now proposed was different from that of last year; but even if were specifically the same there would be no inconsistency in his supporting it, for when the Government moved the previous question last year, it had recognised the principle by the appointment of a Com mission. The Right Honourable Baronet comes forward with an opposite principle. It was now necessary to know whether the Irish were to be governed upon the one principle or the other.— (Cheers.) The report of the Commissioners might be necessary for working out the details of that principle; but, in the mean time, they had all the great leading facts to enable them to judge upon the prin . ciple.—Hear.) If they did not adopt that principle, what were they to do ?—(Cheers.) Were they to vote permanently the existence of the Church of Ireland in its present state of luxury—were they to maintain that struggle which was only now commencing P—(Cheers.) No man would be so mad as to incur all the evils of that struggle, even when there was a possibility he might be worsted.—(Hear, and cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet himself had not acted upon this principle with respect to emancipation. After thirty years of disorder and misery, the Right Hon. Baronet was compelled to come down to that House and acknowledge that all theattempts to oppose that measure hail utterly failed.—( Hear, hear.) That great measure was at length carried in a mariner that robbed it of halt' its benefit, and more than half its grace.—(Hear, hear.) That was the point at which it fairly aimed after a struggle of thirty years. At the time it was conceded what was the argument used by the Right Hun. Baronet opposite (Sir It. Peel) ? He first alluded to the impossibility of continuing any longer the effort to carry on a divided Government ; he declared it im. possible to continue a Government that was not unanimous either for or against the concession of the question. The Right Hon. Baronet pro ceeded to say— " Can a Government he formed on the principle of permanent resist ance to Catholic Emancipation ? I would put it to the House whether the principle of continued resistance can be acted upon without endan. gering the local interests of the empire ?—(Hear, hear.) I wish that, in the discussion of this point, the arguments may be put fairly ; for, if it can be shown me, as a Minister of the Crown, that permanent re sistance cannot be made with safety to the State, then, I say, that no other course is open to us than concession on such terms as I have stated. I ask, then, is the Government of this country to be formed on theground of permaaently opposing the claims of the Catholics ? It is very easy to say that it is to be so formed ; but the question here is not as to what is to be said, but what is to be done ?'' Were these circumstances, he would ask, more or less applicable to those of the present period ? At that tme the Right Hon Baronet had been anticipated in his concession by the , xpressed opinion of the House of Commons ; for, in the year IS3S, the year preceding that in which the Right lion. Baronet had spoken what he (Lord Howick) had just quoted, the principle of concession to the Catholics had been carried in the House of Commons by a majority of sixty. What was the state of the present question ? Three fourths of the last House of Commons were opposed to the continuance of the Protestant Establish ment in Ireland on its present footing. The present Ilouse had not yet expressed its opinion, but he hoped it would do so, as unequivocally, and by a still greater majority than its predecessor—which, by a majo. sits' of six, had declared for the principle of appropriation. As to the possibility of carrying on the principle of resistance to ecclesiastical re. form on these broad and equitable terms, the Bight Hon. Baronet had got a pretty significant hint the other night, on the tithe question. Although he (Lord Howick) did not vote, neither did his Right Hon. Friend the late Secretary for Ireland, on that question the Right Hon. Baronet had only a majority of 15. Was it likely, then, the Right Hon. B:ronet could carry through his resistance to the great principle on which so large a portion of that House were united ? The next argu. ment the Right Hon. Baronet adduced at the time of conceding the Catholic claims, was that the difference of opinion would, if a settlement were not effected, produce a collision between the two Houses, most dangerous in its effects. Have, he would ask, events lost their force since 1829, or have recent events seemed less likely to produce colli sion, or were they more free from danger than on the occasion of the Catholic question ? If not, he (Lord Howick) called on the Right Honourable Baronet to concede now, on the very same grounds of policy on which he then made concessions.—(Loud cheers.) But there was one other and still stronger argument used at that time by the Right Hon. Baronet. The main argument on which he relied, and with the greatest effect, in behalf of the concession, was the un happy state of Ireland. He well remembered the feeling eloquence with which the Right Hon. Baronet called on the House to end the de. stractions of that livid d country, and equally well did he (Lord Howick) remember the answer given to that appeal by the Right Hon. Baronet's present colleague, now sitting by his side. " Oh," said that Right lic.n. Gentleman, " this is only the old story with which we have been familiar for the last twenty-five years." The Bight Hon. Baronet replied, " I am told that this is the old story with wl ich we have been familiar fort, e last twenty-five }ears. It is because it is the old story —(Cheers)—•that I desire to put an end to it.—(Continued cheering.) It is because that which so long existed has failed—(Renewed cheering) —that I am tired of maintaining the present system."—aremendous cheering.) The Right Hon. Baronet might well liaxe been tired of it. He (Lord Ilowick) called on him to put forward thesame views to.night. He called on him to change that system, the success of which he certainly could not allege, and the continuance of which would be productive only of disunion and weakness.—(Hear, hear.) He called on the Right Honourable Baronet to follow that very same course which, under similar circumstances, he had formerly taken; and he called on him the more earnestly because they were this night to decide whether they were to maintain the Protestant Establishment in reference to the benefit it was capable of conferring—in fact they were to try it by the test of its comparative utility to the people of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) The question c n which they had to decide, he (Lord Howick) was willing to judge on the same arguments used by the Right Hon. Baronet himself, when he proposed that they should concede. The Right Hon. Baronet, after using the arguments already quoted, went on to state that the public feeling should be gathered from the large constituency whose representatives spoke their wishes in that House; and as evidence of the prevailing desire to concede the Catholic claims, he said that sixty two of the Irish Members were favourable to concession, and only 3'2 were opposed to it. The 6'2 Members in its favour were the Representatives of the most populous districts. He (Lord Howick) believed the numbers expected to divide on the present question would not be much altered. From 00 to 63 of the present Members from Ireland will be in favour of this question, and these representatives of the largest constituencies.—(bear, hear.) "It is," said the Right Honourable Baronet, " impossible to go on. You must do either of two things. You must go back to the penal laws, and again crush the Catholics down to that state from which you have raised them, or you must at once concede to them their claims." Was not such an argument of tenfold greater force in the present instance? Having conceded emancipation, and still further invested the Irish people with power by the Reform Bill, did they hope to govern that country now on other terms than those of the period at which the Right Hon. Baronet had thus spoken ?—(Cheers.) Already, he believed, he had said enough on that view of the question ; he should no longer pursue the parallel between the circumstances attendant on Catholic Emanci. patios and those so remarkably connected with the subject before the House; but he called on the House and on the Right Hon. Baronet to bear in mind what followed from the former struggle being un. wisely, as it was fruitlessly protracted. He would not now say, or un dertake to remind the Right Hon. Baronet, on whom the responsibility rested of preventing the settlement of Catholic Emancipation four or five years earlier than it had taken place; but he (Lord Howick) called on him, ere he repeated the error in judgment, which in so many respects was so productive of such irreparable Injury—he c f, a o l n led t t o h l a i t hi g in uei t ti o on a , va t i h l e hs c m o s n e c lf ,,s o io f n the of e: .h p i e c r h ienc h e e h h e ad der h iv irm ed . R o i f gh ti t me l , loi t i h . eßar settlement onet, an o d f t o t) n e self personally proposed. depended, Lat O h in i i n ' i P°t n h o ei t n c t mmit the fatal mistake o f not o present ceonutrgsereirt question.took conceding in due season a settlement from which no Governmeat E would bear him =