The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-14 00:00:00

als ordinary atient as not fence.—( ationee, and • id before, I Lord Lon-. fibers of the rut I want to t ,jebate has of „-hat are TI be bt.ougbt ds it i 3 Oat G overtime 1:1%. 'sure of this: sole charge large of he. ig expressted that the late >ebalf of the termed thenr ia."—( Hear, fy the Noble en t ? WiaYr ember on the ierything his ded to them —I quote the bjects of the vn estimation any Govern , Sir, putting have to say Member for the Noble 'the proceed >e Hansard ' s ,rror of Par- he Mirror of )rk certain ag y edited than !xpressiot?s I °t in a situ t but I Cann ot itary report! I ) judge of ac excitem e nt e re within th Lbers led avay. ecolleetion citements- -b y ch they enter: ike use o f ) y would mileh! !is takes place let upon such De judged? at admitted t rl ' s concerned is inseparab le ask, an unitiv ,rs, e hear. ) P e ike out a c ase the collateral )f Ambassado r : 's authority fo: for is 15,00' tacked to the that sum t here - ie, which, ght the annual he fact may be• I )er's statement. A say he is net would wish tter.) But be Illy allotted to it more than Was it not, in • almerston, hear.) What for Middlesef • to create tio a of the aincue.dt to fill ? ) appointnte nt. F the individttal attack it • 10 the individual ,at of )er f o r Midd le. by the TOO s , t o appoint , to understand correctly indi. lon. Genticinet .oud laughte/ se, if the Wit st the charlotte' say , th at b e t e je 7 favourable ;, Sir, would tee $ adversions of nan as s ufficie at public service., üblic in a p ublic se services as 4, those Honoilv ses, to ruti , whatever fee' the military diP o o one will dee and Illustrioile Affairs. alader ) the public see n defence of am now sp ew' and other Bo!: Oh," says °_" e ar an attack e' id ever eyttaill the absent f7.101' the Ministe Member WI ° 1. Membe r as k him who n ot , but I tv o "' es r.). them. Marquis d 1 A t he 13 he io Dn's staff, ° li e m of that c l o t diplomati c nr itiob nted the rr whence "- oe e fere test. ri a st ep h e cireuto 900. ne for a po e co s under n ut a lloy re r 0 s guilty (3 4 e , ir nircumst alt ,de, t° eannot! e _ s i e t b r ne ss ? :her he fil u t' t fts‘. tour , for tPli s it9 . diplom:t ie r n rei ti o f an t his on,i° ll ' U If fOr gilij to I a Prrl op Le Gent le b a t dmit of weilingto m mi if r that.,deal e i }lon. 11 ` 04 01 )f their a g tnt of his co n hat Mr. of tions Ada Lea sep iereel a-. . iUnCi fl a alille (I ' ol in oils ° e cibi IIY r •ce ;rry eal, c r ece e nna, 0 ' kngOct. r I;iic 'your i' a% - io es gr fa i es ty his M a j esr lisl, b i , ; majel sal t , ani Sa'ef cum) : , ou r j ohs o f tire aPP g r u,; a rk' s y aeries ot of the lots bl° fined t h tviee tt sisting . 00 et l o th` h ' e cevot 14 the • e d 1 Old rVIC f ben b 30n /J , on de t b.„ Lona AI be „ jo g i n %chi' 0 0 4 a p b k that 50 'ota i ` s tie I° 0 eiog esti, ! allot nbe to n t erl 3 " OA" e , .) I a ryll lf , e ers e from g e L O rd Nob le ad s tio 0 .04% ineco , a ffair 9 pre 1 0 ) inter fer fd tb e Of reve nt 'l4o""fer that a t"ediiftlooe ry e a l ) . t' e gusg en o o ol: ed n o 51118 /014 41 0 tuber tb r ba or 0 0 ' 9 rthif t l fo r 1111 Y b er ,,, , t' e ti arger 11 , ° 0 111 1 - 0 0 , ;, h Cr e be one throef iver' n ot , s tiou' ° a fert.ol irlik° per c f l for be ",.......... . ... .... r" -- ..-h at si. e5ee,....„„.„„„........ ,.......„ .., a s i n , 4 was becoming dismembered from nothing so !much • cernal dissension and disunion, nor did he think it de s'l'B'ele to vp_ . guarantee her independence against . her seemingly Irie n ip.._ C h ing fate. The following is the opinion of Lord noble Lords—l hope never to see—God forbid I ever should -f ro ' h a course adopted, for the proposition would be scouted satn! end of England to the other, any attempt thus to defend Tiler: it ailY, Turkey, from the att ac k s o f f ore i gn enemies. as k rke - ' , ..10 argument, then, made in this debate for pr ur es k e s nf r iz a , it em s aid, the wasting and disgusting empire . of the T t e , a "`rinent ; and none of the Powers parties to that treaty, the 1 4 0 1827, will interfere I hope to save the fallen empire of boy from • nun ' 1 w suPpose Sir, from this declaration of Lord Holland th ': t B t s il to gne...... ' he having delivered the opinion just read— of t h p o at Noble Lord was unfit to be admitted into the couuci s passage"overnment, and was to call attention to the particular r eo o f the speech selected as a proof of his unfitness, one Q l y m ent might be drawn by those desirous of eriminating the that elitu ern, that if Lord Holland were to join it, that from (eri eclaration it was their intention to dismember Turkey.— els • e °f " flear, hear.") Such were the kind of party con ,,, Turkey.-- elusions that Hon. Gentleman arrived at when from casual hreetteches they gathered deliberate intentions. It was much Oesetli is j u dging of the speeches of each other that Hon. Non Gentile should not be too critical.—( Hear, hear.) If ~,et'inGentlemen are determined to eslish a precedent this 4 it "gi of calling into question the prerogative of the Crown se q rng its a ppointments, I am sure, Sir, that such pro i.ngs will riot stop here, but will run upon every subject reisotit'eu can Possibly be made , a matter of dispute by a powerful ki lle j ot i t il v. " • MEMBER (whose name we could not hear)--A better R. PEEL —Even if you are a majority, it would be eo,, ett r i a . t once openly to attack the Governmeatt . ,. and not the Cr own ) , . by calling into question the preitgatire of it *sled L u nPly a distrust in the Government. I say. Sir, Na p ,' an infinitely better and more honourable course . to R ,at once to declare, by a vo',.e of the House, an entire 3 of confidence in the 'Minielry. hk Irthj'„C• HOBHOUSL: wished to take the lieerty to it7s4l7oheeateliigdli.t Hon. Gentleman a question, which he et:mi -4 !?ecessay, after the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech Ntts. littep:dT, after question was—whether or not the Right i . as Prime Minister of England, and as such . 44 4 1 1 3 , -L e .or the appointments made by the Crown—% he .l, .-41 intend to persevere in this appointment ? /14 1tei lL PEEL asked whether the Right Hon. Baronet k r the question to be answered now ? Sit,' C ' HORROU SE said he called on the Right Hon. 'orr f e , o -att l: to answe r the question, because he could not ga ietelr.; speech whether he meant to say that the ap , Sir epla„ B to be persisted in or not.—(Cheers ? ) 7 1 , 4 °net ;;Z a l , --Was that a question which the Right Hon. `gear, hear--c'm to have answered at the present moment ? ir j, C Land No, no.) Ili ght la' C. "(AROUSE said he did not desire to press the hniant-°°,,l3aronet for an immediate answer if it were incon htsneci by "hat he meant was, that by the course of argument ?Ithethe,h.the Right Hon. Baronet he could not ascertain_ e t sep t . ., - - nneant to tell the House of Commons that in the ` B e e s "ate Of feeling as regarded this appointment, and after he woo-Plosion of the opinion - that he had heard to-night, which 'ory - ,7 44 not say was the opinion of the majority, but it looked the exp u ch like it, whether, such being the feeling, and such 1 8d er eg sion of opinion, the Right Hon. Gentleman din t 3 h , e -4Pllt:llveY by his speech that he should persevere in Si r int. nes er h °BERT PEEL then observed—This House t t oy oulcl find him disposed to withhold any information 7,1 1 5 t the l, ll „°,use, or any answers to any questions which . might_ tY. t o•• he could answer, consistently with . his course of 'Pes c h 'le did not hesitate to say that—notwithstanding the A ( row: 4 of t o - night--he was ' 'riot prepared to advise the n Is' ter . cancel the appointment of Lord Londonderry.— . ial cheers.) oej . , 1144 of C. HOEHOUSE would take the liberty then, at ;4 14 '.;11t givi ng his very humble, and it might be most t i w ns i i t g- - 4 clitk °Pin kul; but it was one in which he was, n.o the iii e°nfident agreeing as it did, not only with It til , e e t fi ' L t bs . House, but also with that of the Noble Lord c ight ji "r for Lancashire, whose speech he must say the 'll elle,e°•Gentleman had not even touched upon—( Opposi -44try 41--- he must express his decided opinion that the h WoUld s i f ra ore egret much that the Right Hon. Gentleman—. 4ow Manliness than discretion, with more respect for . ~l ' i t l I ;, ° ,_Pinion and that of his colleagues, than for the opi "k4fort- `ue county still persevered in that not only most Lrsiii o ;7e, but mostY improper appointment.—( Hear, he . ar.) atir tk 'Y to offer' g further observations on the subject, ,74,,, 1 - ", House Inwhiaennyhoshould do shortly, because he a 'llt r i t " tnat the question would go into a nutshell—he had Nit e 0° Make, it was this—the Right Hon. Gentleman o t p e - Zeeeh e e gan his speech which was most eloquent,. as h . h . 4 of ~ b i' ei g h t ,:ne Hon. Baronet always were, by declaring that t'''str st ; "on. Gentleman (the Paymaster' of the Forces) re teard f rer of office from the late Government. He never ep"' It • t '' ° tg : Tght Hon. Gentleman having received such an 4, 4 bet c ,'''g tb e , however ; but there was this differ so-"' G ent the late Government having offered the Right k i Z t t i . osl e to - "Wlte . an at app . ointment, and the Right Hon. .Ba the e e he d i r prime Minister having offered . such an appoint ilk:, 4 Yee ts -8 e ,.°01 recollect that the Right Hon. Gentleman pAP .s la b eed h ilt ' yl",!he Forces, ev o e f r accused Earl Grey of haN a great cause for the pur- G en ( ah and. 7ll a the op , .e!ean o....mang head it.—(Much . cheering.) The Right Hon. 4147%04 t°F ite had been in open and decided and manly Z e b l nany measures—not measures but proposals— lotlnid. acc ount who Yho acted with Lord Grey, and perhaps he ti, G epti ` Tor the offer of an appointment to the Right Is 8 e "'an the Paymaster of the Forces, if that were ipl t hat? a er , }B sPs he might account for that offer by suppos ,,(4lrni in k 3 beeps the Right Hon. Gentleman had assisted \s' i kel at e n u r t of office the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite. r h . p t , and cheering ) L o Sir j . e EE L —So did Lord Londonderry. top t ti he 40; 11°B ROUSE.—The appointment of that Noble flog et of t h e opposed. The Right . Hon. Gentleman the Pay -1,•,, t arn " Fortes certainly did assist in ousting the Right fe e t Aiti e e e. e . t • The occasion was on the question of the . Civil or ti. , st e li 4ght Hon. Baronet, no doubt, recollected it per- Pte, Pte,7Righ----(t Ho ear, and a laugh ) In consequence, then, of yo si d, h ° n• Gentleman's (the Paymaster of the Forces') l llti7 0 th.f e „ b eing at the head of the " section" of the T male the popular party were able to come to ft°4l beta whi h ' gre tt an e . gave them a majority 411 C e d sin, int emperate question which he had always re -1 tie tuae e " 110 alluded to his question to the Right Hon. Ilia -bendsaskin him whether, after the vote just come . to, he es t i we . tie_. N I; ~ re going to resign _? Thus the Right Hon. 41' 11 IM.._ the Paymaster of the Forces, on_ account of his hi N ati . 4eri ce i , as well as intellectual aid--(Laughter)—was 411 4 , tli c 1 4 Person of sufficient importance to have offered to lei: Box ho f Secretary of War in the Whig Administra- I tst ete d by ' the Right Hon. Gentleman happened to be Atril The ~ ' 1 ki s the Premier opposite was what he could that undwears tip (4 t e 'tight Hon. Gentleman insinuated it . 1 .0 4 els e knitter of course for Hon. Gentlemen on the (I:typo: r i d - Ilpl t ione e e , f tile House to object to the appointment of L Wir t -1. Now he was most decidedly opposed to the 30,4°4golatidra,b,l.e Gentleman and his colleagues, yet he never PR` e4 r, he Lfidn when he saw the appointment announced. ktt,.it Ad m). ). h satisfied him that every pretext of the kled onnistration being what some unwise persons kthe ti ,' a coMpletely reforming Administration, would, when -(1 %, ent of the announcement, fail to deceive. He felt ° I . tl, Wileptue appointments of the Right Honourable Ge - aLlp-se.pnb-i!, s?en, theze would be no mistake on the part N I sti on. .c nereafter, as to the character of the Adm . i i - t tii4ot i nt tut there would be no imposture, no fraud t 41 4 a llo P de d by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite him, o ki if he n be any. This certainly did appear to l'eL'eeetite° t4tained some little doubt before, if he had (Ay he : appointment of the President of . the Board of of ugh) "`tgut have thought that a little incongruous 111. 11.1 t4' P --li tlt then, when the appointment of the Paymaster no II: ' 4 n °tee s.. Caine, he was quite sure that there was that op for o ne, Therefore, he begged leave to say, IS P .ta so li fai % and he believed he might say his friends also, stthey We titir,apbeing angry were so far from bemg with C pointment . ihat they were delightee wi t., vv ri- =nee ed happy to ' find that virtue was at last re -1/4;4 toh) all ghter )/; with respect to this appointment tici%saktiliao_in.derry, it appeared ew' to him that the Right Hon. k •-el ipt 1 ' °Y his speech only confirme . d . the previous sus taitt h e that me had confirmed the suspicion of the Noble ZalC he v , 'telnber for South Lancashire. That Noble Lord sti 48 quite sure that the inclinations of the Right Hon. la7 ti. ) 114 A 111 .. u , 5t in fact be against in his Loud 4 t Nts d i 4 Q if ever he did hear in his life a speech . from a ti o ON °pater, and he had had the honour of listening to tr kti 4e ' 4 : g ee e r i t Zl in u i en of Fox from under the gallery of the ki e gitie lent wa y e in n e evr a d did t h r one in which the weakness 41 11 a1 th or the s ore dexterous) avoided ; yet it was im- Ili* 'light Right Hon. Gentleman to make out a case. th e b ad on. Gentleman was himself aware of ;he 4e:elt tlesB of , his -e for he went beating about the t i g -ie ° l , 4 l , -Ine n aving e a as little hit at the economy of the :a''Y .4,,," e ! for Middlesex, then flying off to the Podia 'llC‘t hi l e z 'te; in short, the Right Hon. Gentleman ad tt'vitPer t io sel f to everything but the merits of the case, vi!., titi,l, s sel: ~ vviever respectable the private character of the . in e4.Srli,e4-sv"hi3ebitierti._ man of most decided and pronounced opinions iN tei t l o wh ich I. w tof course occupy the attention of the ,se i ti t e L ue was appointed, was a fit person to be sent Ne t riute Irlua ssY ? He held in his hand the Mirror of 1, 4 by land would read a sentence from a speech y , AN tun Noble Lord, which he thought more de th'st h._, et see,r, r e ,o.onclusive of the impropriety, he might Ya' v‘e them nun to St. Petersburgh, than the sentence -, nq n. r ead by the Honourable Gentleman :—:` If tii tti frala ortue te -"atelY, bye o policy become more alien- Yndl --cse Powerswith 1 i 'll we were formerly 44 1: ' . l' terni s" - -if Austria w and Prussia, "'L as well as Russia, c s, ,e,d with the belief that Great Britain, instead of '4 1 b kiwa_ st-:onservative, that bienfaisant power as before, cdtsopeY exercised her influence in maintaining the peace t ip t z t4,,,leto e 4, I) , i i it idli t ; it rig virushts of of nationsre I lt - Nte t i lf, on the contrary,they now believed her to be revolutionary liberty which . they Al l zp, nit' to their interests and to their safety, it could t‘ tl ia tt th cted that theye would keep up that close alliance t kl °ll, th 1.'40 hshe had exercised so happy an influ ' t P !' t ee of the world, but which, unfortunately, from 11N e k* Zhl his ajestys Government has now taken, it would in n se g a e g r _ , a o ir , " If these were merely \ l o a t i: 444 : ll Y rt. 14esl.fteell'shuetrtetereedx or the excitement of debate i pi o , Sng that ,expressions that had been used . in answer . to 1tt 141 3 of 1., bad been said personally irritating to him (the 11,1"--‘seit,"It4..tlieend°derry)—if they were expressions in contra „.l., • it 4 general tenor of his life and opinions—( Cheers) ton s would would not be attached to them ; but . as ''' were such as showed that the Noble Lord dm- THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 14, 1835. approved of the whole of the foreign policy of the late Go vernment—as they showed that, in his opinion, that policy had alienated from Great Britain the great military monarchies of Europe—that in his opinion, by revolutionary crtisl's at home we had endangered our alliance with other nations--with these opinions, so declared and known by every act (if he might call words acts) of the Noble Lord, could it be said that the Noble Lord was the most proper individual to be selected for such a duty? It would be recollected that the Right Honourable Baronet opposite, in his own mani festo to the electors of Tamworth, and also in the King's speech, and again in his speech explanatory of his policy, gave them to understand that though he did not feel him self called on to give an opinion as the foreign policy of his predecessors, still he would say that he meant gene rally to adhere to it. On what principle, then, could this nobleman be sent as ambassador to St. Petersburgh ? ( Cheers.) Why, if they must send him out ambassador, did they not send him to one of those monarchies of whose friendship he was so chary ?—( Cheers.) Why was he not sent to Vienna? Why send him to that court where it was almost impossible that he should do good, and almost impos sible but he would do harm ? Would not foreign powers be likely to consider this appointment as indicative of the opi nions of the Government of this country ? If there was a court to which the Noble Lord ought not to have been sent, it was the Court of St. Petersburgh. He had expressed him self decidedly of opinion that the Poles had been guilty of re bellion. Surely, then, he was not a fit person to go to the Court of St. Petersburgh, unless it was manifest that such was the opinion on which he ought to act, or which, if he did act upon it, was the opinion of this country ? The Right Honourable Gentlemen seemed to be alarmed for the prerogative of the King; but he would take the liberty of saying, that though an Ambassador was the Ambassador isf the King, it was true, yet he was sent out to act for the interests of the country—(Cheers)—and his appoint ment was as much questionable on this head as that of any Minister of the Crown. He protested solemnly against that hint thrown out by the Right Honour able Gentleman at the conclusion of his speech. He pro tested against this motion being considered as the slightest infringement of the prerogative of the Crown, or any exten sion of the privileges which the representatives of the people had a right to exercise.—( Cheers.) Anxious as they ought to be in this House for the honour of England, and that the interests of the country should be properly represented to the more powerful of our allies, they had a right to say that the choice which the Right Hon. Baronet had made, in the ap pointment of one of the country's most influential servants abroad, was such as it could not approve. The Right Hon. Gentlemen charged Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House with a disposition to object to all his appointments. Had they objected to the appointment for Paris—to Lord Cowley ? Had they objected to any diplomatic appointment ? He did not know how many had taken place, but he knew of no ob jections but to this case. Then there were the law appoint ments also ; had any one on his side of the House whispered an objection to them ? The Right Hon. Gentleman must ex cuse him for saying that they were not so blind or besotted, that they were not so forgetful of what they owe to their characters or to the interests of the country, as to object to anything mere ly because it was proposed by the Right Hon. Gent. The Right Hon. Gentleman's memory was a very good one, and they sometimes, in this House, suffered from it.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman would not deny, that not many sessions ago he owed his maintenance in office to the sup port given to him by the Opposition side of the House. But it was unnecessary to carry his memory much further back than to the debate of a few nights ago.—( Hear, hear.) If he knew any thing of himself or his friends, it was not merely be cause a measure was proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the measure was objected to by them.—( Hear, hear.) Certainly not—though, at the same time, he agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that the cant of measures and not men was one of the most mischievous and foolish, and ought surely by this time to have been exploded. He did not know of any thing in particular that could be added to what had been said by the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him as to the opinions entertained by the Noble Lord. They were not flying opi nions, to be collected only 133 one word or by one speech, but opinions known to be concealed by him from none, and for his entertainment of which the Noble Lord stood pre-eminent. This being so, was he a fit man to be sent to the Court of St. Petersburgh? If the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government did persevere in this appointment, the House of Commons would feel it incumbent to take such steps as would express its opinion upon it.—(Loud cheers.) The Right Honourable Baronet deprecated such discussions as the present, in regard to the conduct of his Majesty's Government ; and said, it would be better for some Hon. Gentleman to come forward with a motion expressive of want of confidence, and for their removal, and take the sense of the House upon it. He said, too, that that course would certainly be better. He did not think less of the Ministry because that was not done. The Right Hon. Baronet said, " Remove us ; but do not, by attacking us upon such questions as the present, only damage the power of the Executive." He said it was cruel so to put the Right Hon. Baronet to inconvenience. The Hon. Members for Lancashire (Lord Stanley) and Cum berland ( Sir James Graham) had contrived to play their parts so as to have the Government in their fingers.—(Laughter and cheers.) But the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government said, " Put an end, if you please, to our Govern ment by a vote of want of confidence, but do not let the King's power be injured by attacks upon the appointments of ambas sadors : devise," said he, " some direct mode of ridding your selves of the Government." Some, however, thought that when the House placed you, Mr. Speaker, in that chair, that it had spoken its want of confidence in the present Government ; but it would not do.--( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman showed himself, after that vote, as ready for the fight as ever; and that he was able to do so, no man was more sensible than himself, and he was not sorry to have the pleasure of hearing the Right Hon. Baronet speak. Then there was the amendment on the Address. At one of their secret meetings, when they were concocting the amendment, it had been asked whether he thought the Right Hon. Ba ronet would resign if it were carried ; he had said, " Put in this (alluding to some part of the amendment on the Address) and he must resign."—(Laughter and cheers.) Then at last a friend of his had come forward and said " Put in something about the dissolution, and if carried, no man of honour and feeling can continue longer in office—(Laughter)—the doom of the Right Hon. Gentleman would be sealed." Well—the amendment had been carried—certainly by a smaller majority, from casualties, than the question of the Speaker. Previous opinions of the course of the Right Hon. Baronet would take were justified. He said he would not resign—he would perse vere to the last. But he would ask Hon. Gentlemen when would the last come ?—( Cheers.)— He only mentioned this to show that they had done their best to ture out the Right Hon. Baronet, but he did not know when the " last" would arrive—when the Right Hon. Baronet would admit the day had arrived. Now, to-night, he did not know whether it struck the House how Ministers can longer sit upon their benches. Here was the first diplomatic appointment made— and by whom ? for the question must come. It was made by no less a person than the great man at the head of foreign affairs. Hon. Gentlemen knew that appointment was owing to the accident which put the Right Hon. Baronet abroad at the time when he, with the late Ministry, was put out of office. —( A laugh.) It was the appointment of the Duke of Wel lington as the head of the Foreign Office. But though the Duke of Wellington had originated the appointment, it had been sanctioned by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government ; and being so sanctioned by him, he must be re sponsible. Of the Duke of Wellington —considering his splendid services to his country—it would be presumptuous in him to speak in terms other than those of respect ; but he had made the first appointment—it was the first act of the Noble Duke, and the Right Hon. Baronet came to defend it in that House. But in his opinion it had not been defended at all.— ( Cheers.) Not a word had been said which would justify it ; and from that quarter to which the appointment owed its ex istence came its condemnation. For this appointment the Government suffered itself to be disgraced, and dragged through the mire—an appointment made by the Noble Duke who was the father of the Government, and to whom the country looked as its real head. It was no fault of their's (the Opposition) that the Ministers were not removed. They did what they could to effect it. Hon. Gentlemen had suggested another course last night than the one adopted, and the 'Right lion. Baronet seemed angry at the change of the plan of operation for the night ; but the Right Hon. Baronet had most reason 'to be angry with the present course, for he had no doubt a debate on the question of shortening the Supplies would have been more agreeable to him than the present discussion ; but the votes of that House were ineffectual in removing the Right Hon. Baronet, as, if they were to resolve upon addressing the Crown, the Right Hon. Baronet would persevere. The Right Hon. Ba ronet wished them to take a special mode of expressing their want of confidence without damaging the Ministry by indirect means. Would it be sufficient if they moved an address to the Crown that the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) should not go on the proposed embassy ? Would the Right Hon. Baronet put his .situation and retiring upon that issue ? ( Cheers.) The Right. Hon. Baronet would not do it. But the time must come, when he must retire ; and it only de pended on those gentlemen who occupied a portion or section of the House opposite—(pointing to the benches occupied by Lord Stanley and Sir James Graham). It struck him as sin gular that Ministers of the Crown should continue holding office upon the tenure they held it by.—(Hear.) A word from the Noble Lord ( Stanley) would deprive the Ministers of office, that is, if the Right Hon. Baronet intended to defer to to the expression of the opinion of a majority, or unless he had made up his mind to make another appeal to the people.—( Cheers.) if what he bad taken the liberty of suggesting was really the case, and it was unplea sant to put it to the Right Hon. Baronet in the way he had been obliged to allude to it, he could only say that the Ministry stood in a situation hardly compatible with the dignity of their station. The Right Hon. Baronet trusted too much to party feeling and support. He knew that circumstances would happen which would induce the Noble Lord ( Stanley) and his friends to decide and join their old friends. When that moment came, the Right Hon. Baronet's career would be terminated, and he knew it.— ( Cheers.) He had spoken on topics which were not in imme diate connection with the question, but he had been drawn aside in consequence of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Ba ronet at the head of the Government. He had endeavoured to follow him through those topics at a humble distance ; he had endeavoured to touch upon the various points which had been urged in support of the appointment. He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed his determination to persevere in the appointment of the Noble Marquis (Lon donderry), and he trusted that that House would also perse vere in procuring his rejection.—( Cheers. ) Sir E. KN ATCHBULL trusted that he should be able, in a few brief words, to exonerate himself from the charges so unfairly and so untruly brought against him. First, as to what passed between him ,and Lord Grey's Administration. When Lord Grey's Government existed, Lord Palmerston, at thee, instane of the lkoble Earl, had waited tsn liirii ( Sir E. Knatchbull) with a proposition to join the Ad ministration, which he declined to do. He, however, stated he wished them well, and expressed a hope that they, in any essential reform which they might introduce, would adhere to the principle of conservation, as far as regarded the ancient institutions of the State. That was all that passed between him and the Noble Lord on the ruhjett. The second charge against him was contained in the allusion to his vote on the question of the malt tax. He was taunted with having voted against his pledges on that occasion. What was the fact ? He had given no pledge whatever on the subject.---( Hear, hear.) And not only did he give no pledge, but when asked his opinion on it in the presence of 7,000 electors, he had declined entering into any explanation of them, stating that the question was one so intimately con nected with other interests that he should reserve himself until it came before the consideration of Parliament.—( Hear.) He had to complain that the most unfair practices had been re sorted to by the opposite side of the House to impugn the cha racter of the Administration, individually as well as generally. Misrepresentation, distortion of opinions, and other objec tionable means were not stopped at. For instance, the Hon. Baronet the Member for the East Riding of Yorkshire was reported to have used the following observation in re ference to both the Government of which he ( Sir E. K.) was a Member and of himself individually. The Hon. Ba ronet, after alluding to the unfitness of the former, went on —Gentlemen, I ask you what are the principles of the pre sent Administration ? How are you to judge of an Adminis tration but by the character of the individuals composing it ? Yet here we have the notorious Sir E. Knatchbull, Secretary at War, who made use of the following expressions in a speech at the election for West Kent.—l am a known and determined Tory—the individual whom Lord Grey asked to join his Government.—(A laugh, and Hear.) I hold every man an enemy to his country who will not join in upholding the institutions of our ancestors, as they have been handed down to us, perfect and unimpaired Now he ( Sir E. K.) could assure the House, and the Right Hon. Baronet who preferred the charge against him, that there was not one word of the quotation true ; for that his sentiments, uttered on that occasion, were of a diametrically opposite character. —( Hear.) He hoped, therefore, that when the lion. Baronet quoted him again, he would take a little more care to be ac curate. The Right lion. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. C. Hob house) had said that he was not a party to the negotiations which had been entered into with him ( Sir R. K.) and the Government of Earl Grey ; and in stating this he only stated the fact. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not then a Mem ber of that Administration, as Lord Grey at that time had no need of hi§ assistance. It was subsequently to it that he was appointed Secretary at War, and rejected by the electors of Westminster. With respect to the appointment of Lord Londonderry he ( Sir E. Knatchbull) begged to say a very few words. He had no acquaintance whatever (so we un derstood him to say) with that Noble Lord, and therefore could not have any personal feelings to influence his opinion of his fitness. But he was bound to conclude, from his know.. ledge of the probity, patriotism, and experience of his Noble and Right Hon. Colleague in office, that the appointment was made on the safest grounds—the competency of the in dividual for the duty he had been selected to perform, and the public good. In all the debate not a single charge had been substantiated against the Noble Marquis; and those that were made were unworthy of credit, inasmuch as they were entirely founded upon reports of the proceedings in another place, and given only in one publication. One word more, and he would have done. An Hon. Member had asked him how he could reconcile it to himself to join the present Admi nistration after his denunciation of their conduct on the Catho lie Question? He should answer him. The Catholic Ques tion had been long settled ; and if a political difference which existed five or six years since were to be always remembered and acted upon, it would for ever exclude men from serving their country by precluding them from taking office with or becoming reconciled to their former opponents on any subject whatever.--( Cheers.) He hoped his explanations were satis factory to the House. Sir J. C. HOB HO USE explained. Sir G. STRICKLAND certainly did select the Right Hon. Baronet as a sample of the present Administration, be cause he was one of the best known and most honourable among the individuals composing it. With respect to the quotation put in the mouth of the Right Hon. Baronet, he had got it in the newspapers, and he thought from all he had heard and seen of him it was likely to be a correct expression of his sentiments. The Right Hon. Baronet had, however, denied its accuracy, and he was bound to believe it did not. His ( Sir G. Strickland's) experience in the House was small, but he had been in it long enough to observe the contention of par ties and to ascertain the sentiments of some individuals. He had been a Member of that Parliament which effected Reform, arid he could not help remembering that every clause, every paragraph, almost every line of the Bill was most strenuously and indefatigably opposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. Sir E. eN A TCHB UL L—l was not in that Parliament at all.—(Laughter, and great cheering.) Sir G. STRICKLAND was fully aware that the Right Hon. Gentleman was not in that Parliament. But every question which related to the great measure of Reform— (Cries of No, no, Order, Oh)—he had always understood that the Right Hon. Baronet was in opposition to every measure of Reform.--( Cries of No, no, and Oh.) The Right Hon. Baronet had opposed the Bill at large, and every part of it; and his sentiments were universally known to be against it. It was not for him ( Sir G. Strickland) to attack the characters of those public men who were longer in Par liament than himself, but if he recollected aright there was no individual in the House at the time Catholic Emancipation wa.F. , passed who opposed it more strongly than the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Cries of Oh, oh.) Under these circumstances he thought he was justified in the mistake he had made in attri buting the report in the newspapers to the Right Hon. Ba ronet as his real sentiments.—( No, no.) He wished to set himself right, however, with the Right Hon. Baronet, for whom personally he had the greatest respect. The expressions " the notorious Sir Edward Knatchbull" were not his. He had never made use of them. Lord E BRING TON did not think that any Gentleman in that House would think that the character of Earl Grey would suffer from what had been said against him.—( Hear.) The character of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite he was ready to acknowledge stood equally clear. The Right Hon. Baronet, however ( Sir Edward Knatchbull) had stated that in declin ing the offer of office made to him by the Noble Earl he wished him success, not only in the formation of his Govern ment, but in the prosecution of his plans.--( Cries of " No, no," from the Treasury Benches, with an explanation by Sir Edward Knatchbull across the table, that was inaudible in the Gallery.) He had understood the Right Hon. Baronet to say that he had wished the Noble Earl success in the prosecu tion of his plan of Reform. Notwithstanding this wish the Right Hon. Baronet had taken his leave of Reform, and had entered that House with an assurance of a determined hos tility against his Noble Friends, as great as that entertained by any Honourable Member on that side of the House. He had felt most anxious that the changes effected in the foreign policy of the late Government should not be changed back again, and he now felt the greatest appre hension as to the effect of the appointment of the Noble Marquis. If, in spite of what had now taken place in that House, his Majesty's Ministers should persevere in this ob noxious and unpopular appointment, he trusted other pro ceedings would be resorted to, and that the Opposition in Parliament would assume a more direct and positive form. Hon. Members opposite had asserted that no specific charge had been made against the Noble Marquis. He had no thing to urge against the private character of that Noble Lord, but he would say that there was not an individual in the country—that there was not a single individual em ployed in the diplomatic service—whose appointment to this embassy could have given such strong and universal dis satisfaction. Lord DUDLEY STUART considered that the appoint ment was most unfortunate and ill-advised. Many persons, both within the walls of Parliament and without, who ap proved of the principles of the present Administration, did in their hearts consider the appointment as the most unfor tunate which the Government had as yet made. If he had wished to turn Ministers out of their places he should have rejoiced at this selection of the Noble Marquis ; but as he had no such wish, and considered it as no part of his duty, he was free to lament the imprudent step they had taken. He was glad that the Right Hon. Baronet had defended the Noble Marquis from using the words that had been attributed to him, for he was well assured that all England felt that the Poles were not rebels, but a gallant people using every justifiable exertion for the reco very of their rights and liberties. Their resistance to Russia was not only their undoubted right, but one of their most imperative duties. He knew not what kind of unfortunate inspiration had seized the Noble Duke when he made this appointment, for. it had been considered as most dis creditable to him throughout the whole country. Could the Noble Duke have found no man but the Noble Marquis for the situation, when his opinions were so well known to be hostile to the unhappy Poles. He had heard the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer say with pleasure, that it was not to be inferred from the appointment of any man that the Government intended to pursue an unjust or illiberal policy. He hoped that the Minister to Russia, whoever he might be, would be instructed to protest in the most energetic manner against the horrible conduct of Russia towards the Poles. The Russians had had the horrible atrocity to disregard all their treaties as well as their amnesty to the Poles, and when a noble Pole who had returned to his country reminded General Pas kewitsch of the Emperor's amnesty, the General's reply was, " The amnesty is for Europe, and Siberia for you." Even now there were advertisements published in Warsaw for tenders to transport the Polish children to Siberia. This was done in contempt of England, and had any smaller power than Russia treated this country in a similar way in a case in which she had by treaty a right to interfere, the conduct of the British Government would have been very different. There had been an opportunity of settling the question without a drop of bloodshed, but that had unfortunately been allowed to pass. Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Government would make the strongest protests in favour of the Poles, and that the House would be put in possession of all the facts re lating to the condu c t o f R uss i a towards Turkey. Colonel E VA NS rose, amidst cries of " Question, question." This appointment was another instance of the violent contrast between the acts and the professions of Ministers. If any part of the speech from the Throne were explicit it was that which professed to follow up the policy of the late Ministers with respect to foreign States. This' policy was intimately ,onnected with the establishment of two of the Governments in the south of Europe, and yet the Noble Lord had denounced as illegitimate all the Sovereigns of the south of Europe with whom England was in alliance. The Noble Lord had de clared their rights to the Throne to be invalid, notwithstanding those rights had been formally recognised by the British Go vernment. The Noble Lord had spoken in decision of the ftigal; lie had declared that the usurper, t e thera traitor, Don of the was fidiTicign Of Spain, and that Queen of Spain W6fB not to be supported, and Mid ought which ri g hts of the Sovereigns of Fance, Belg h unti t , S it pa r in D , o a o n c d a P r o io r ; fleeted so much honotir •oh •• ? It was not much Who did not recollect the Holy Annum... "--1. that t y o e t t h t e lli c s r w ed a i s t t o l f C t n h e a n R w i ;h o t w H a ' o s ti n t e: B l f alt l r e l 0 43 n w A e dt:mpsir i s e ß t r p o a o b t l i e l o c r n y t —H ea r r e . )- T 1 had ever seceded to that Alliance, but he every had latterly seen the necessity Of viittidfaffirtg fretu it; The Quadruple Treaty had afforded him the means of doing so, and file Speech from the Throne had not only professed an adhesion to the Quadruple Treaty, but had taken credit for having formed a supplement to it. This had appeared as a proof that Ministers were not only professing but acting up to their professions, and now they were sending out an Ambassador who had denounced the Quadruple Treaty over and over again. This was tanta mount to a declaration of war against the people, or to an ex posure of an utter infidelity on the part of the Government to their engagements. He hoped that Ministers would not persevere in th appointment. Mr. H. L. BUL WER, amidst cries of " Question," vehe mently denounced the appointment of the Noble Marquis. Mr. E WART said that it was proper on occasions to recol lect the sayings of great men, and he thought that an appro priate opportunity of quoting the text of the Right Hon. Baronet, who laid it down that " not measures but men" was to be the consideration ; and this text the Right Hon. Bart. laid down, even in opposition to the leading article of the Times, which proved its devotion to the cause of freedom by its support of the Right Hon. Baronet's Government. He did not think that it was necessary to make any graver charge against the Noble Marquis who was the subject of that night's discussion than that which had been admitted by the Right Hon. Baronet, namely, his opposition to the rights and inte rests of Poland. He looked upon the letter of General Sebas. tiani to be nothing more than a mere commonplace compli ment, and of no value as to the Noble Marquis's general po litical character, and he felt that the present Parliament would greatly discredit itself in the estimation of the country, if it did not pronounce an unanimous condemnation upon that character. Mr. SHEIL, in order to meet the wishes of the House, as he understood from the Right Hon. Baronet that the appoint ment of the Noble Marquis' had not been as yet completed, and therefore the document for which he had moved was not in a state to be laid before the House, should withdraw his motion, satisfied that after the discussion of that night the Noble Marquis himself would, in compliance with the feeling of the country, resign at once the appointment to which he had been named. NAVY ESTIMATES. On the motion of Lord ASHLEY, the House went into a Committee of Supply. Mr. HUME hoped that the Noble Lord would not, at that late hour (half-past ten o'clock), go into his statement on the Navy estimates, with a House that could not be much disposed to pay the necessary attention to so important a subject after the protracted discussion they had had. Sir R. PEEL--I ask what prospect there can be of getting through the public business if, upon occasions like the present, and at so early an hour, we are to adjourn our proceedings ? This night was fixed for bringing forward the Navy estimates, and is it to be said that because an Hon. Gentleman gets up and makes a motion that occupies the attention of the House for five hours, which has nothing whatever to do with the Navy estimates, that the public business must consequently be de layed ? Why not proceed as far as we can to-night? Surely it must be known to Hon. Members that unless business be proceeded with at the beginning of the Session, there will be the greatest difficulty in getting through it as the period of prorogation approaches ? The only object the Government can have in going on at this hour is to forward the public bu siness, and I am sure that Hon. Gentlemen must see that they will not be promoting the public interest by persisting in an adjournment. Sir J. WROTTESLEY recollected that in the last session the two motions which the Marquis of Chandos brought for ward, were both introduced on a night fixed for going into a Committee of Supply ; so that the motion of that night was only following a bad example. Mr. GOULBURN said, that if any one had a greater right than another to complain of the practice alluded to he had, for he believed he was the first person, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose official statement had been interrupted by motions not connected with the subject. Sir R. PEEL—In answer to what has fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. Wrottesley), I take leave to state that I never did interfere or sanction any interference with the lat.) Chancellor of the Exchequer on any night fixed by him for bringing forward official business, or on going into a Commit tee of Supply. I was no party to the motions to which the Hon. Baronet has alluded, and I ought not therefore to be se lected for an example on this occasion. Sir J. WROTTESLEY could hardly think that those motions were brought on without the concurrence of the Right Hon. Baronet. Mr. HUME considered that the question that had been dis cussed that night had every thing to do with the estimates. It was always the practice to bring before the House any great public grievance that was to be complained of on the occasion of granting a vote of supply. Could any thing be more scandalous than the discussion they had had that evening ? ( Hear and laughter.) The Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department was greatly mistaken if he supposed that the practice of which he complained began when he was Chan cellor of theExchecitler, _ It had a much more ancient origin than his appointment to that office. After a few words from Lord SANDON and Sir S. WHALLEY, Lord ASHLEY rose and said that it had fallen to his lot to bring before the House the Navy Estimates for the present year. It would be satisfactory to the House and to the country to hear that in the present year there would be 232,0001. less asked for than in 1834 ; and in saying this he did not state it as any boast, because he felt assured that had the late Administra tion remained in office the same reductions would have been effected. The plan of reduction upon which the present esti mates were framed, originated with the Duke of Wellington's Administration, and was followed up by his Right Honourable Friend the Member for Cumberland ( Sir James Graham), who introduced the spirit of economy that at present pervaded every department of tecoun Government, try T The s e sole e presentservice e con nected with these estimates, was , that they gave an answer to pdairtt t m hehat of claimed the f l er t the alarm that was raised that on the return of the Conserva tives to office there would also be a return to the worst system of past times. He had divided the estimates for the year into three heads—effective service, non-effective service, and ser vice of other departments of Government. In the effective service there were 2,000 men less to be borne for wages in the present than in the last year; but there was an increase as compared with the last year of one thousand boys ; b u t as a thousand boys are equal only to five hund re d men i n wages, the net reduction, therefore, was equal to one thousand five hundred men in wages. The next point to which he should call the attention of the Committee was the victualling depart ment. Hero there was a general saving on the year's esti mate of 56,7361. Five per cent. per margin at last year. 1830—Value of stock of provisions in hand £422,517 16 6 1834—Value of ditto ditto 255,651 1 3 Diminished capital employed 1830—Vote for provisions, &C. 1835—Vote for ditto ditto In the items of stores and repairs for the present year there was a gross saving . of 6 0 ,2771. There was wanted in 18 3 4 to complete the full establish- ment of stores Inserted in the estimates for that year.. £583,360 450,090 Difference of sum less than the amount required to com- -- plete the establishment Wanted to complete the establishment for 1835 £428,550 Inserted in the estimates for this year Difference of sum less required to complete the establish ment . Timber, 8 per cent. beyond the establishment. In Store Cordage, 53 per cent. beyond the establishment. ent. Spars,He m equal p 133 per fu r o een l l t . establishment beye ndth: in e s ta b s l toe. i s r hm Expenditure per Cent. on Stock for years. 1829 1830 1831 1832 1833 1834 Timber 42 31 20 24 19 17 Cordage and Hemp Canvass ......... Spars l2 12 12 8 5 4 The next point to which he should refer was the saving that had been effected in new works, medical stores, and miscella neous services, and he was glad to be enabled to state to the Committee that the sum required for the present year was less by 28,2691. than that required for the service of last year. Under the great head of non-effective there was also a very material reduction. Less for half-pay in 1835 Less for military pensions 653 Less for civil pensions and allowances.. Actual reduction in the vote for half-pay, including retired pay, since 1828 107,387 He should now ca ll t h e attent i on o f t h e C omm i ttee to the general head of " Service of other Departments," and it would be gratifying to the Committee, as it was to the Government, to find that in every branch of this department it was found possible to make some reduction, although, from the nature of the service, the reductions could not be to any very great extent. The following were the items of saving which the Government had been enabled to effect : Less for Army and Ordnance Departments and Convict Service ,, ,. ,,,,,...£25,475 0 0 Less on Convict Service Transport of Convicts per head in 1830 l2 6 9 Ditto ditto 1834 7 6 2 Saving in last year by victualling Convict ships for six instead of eight months 15,181 0 0 He had already stated to the Committee that the reduction in the number of men in the effective service fcr the year as compared with 1834, would be 1,500, leaving the total number of effective men for the service of the present year to be proved at 36,500. He should now state the compa rative expense of the effective service for three separate periods, namely, 1817, 1823, and 1835, and the Committee would perceive the vast progress that economy had made within that space of time. In 1817 the total number of effective men was only 2294, and the cost of maintaining them was 5, 327,306. In 1823 the number of men was 26,314, and the cost, although great reductions had been made, amounted to 3,992,7351., while in the present year, all that was required to keep up an effective force of 26,500 was the sum of 2,416,300/. So that thus to main tain 22,944 in 1817 required 2,911,006 more than 26,500 men in 1835, and 1,576,434 more to maintain the same num ber in 1823 than in 1835. The next circumstance con nected with the progress that economy had made in all departments of the service to which he should direct atten tion, was a compaison be had made between the estimates and expenditure for 1792, that year that had been so often referred to, and so much lauded for its ebeapn ess in everyt4ing that ap plied to the wants either of the people or the Government, —and the present year, By this comparison he found that the sum demanded for effective service in the present Es timate was less by 426,3831. than the sum expended for the same service in 1792. Expended for effective service in 1792 for 17,360 men £3,016,703 Demanded for effective service, including credits for old stores, for 26,500 men in 1823 2,590,320 - Line less for 26,500 men in 1835, than for 17,360 in Thus m...._ ^f 426,383/. 1792, by the sum's... ' , had increased, and was still in- To sliow how much btisme... -- of letters that were read, creasing, tie' if:Thad state the numne. . Somerset House accompanied with a 'tag of accounts, ah. - "22 not one chiefly :—The estimate in 1834 wag E 34,452; in ... tenth part of that number. Average number of letters received at Whitehall Office an nually : In 1792 In 1833 Letters despatched— In 1792 In 1833 Total of letters in 1834 113,783 Amount of pensions, &c~ in 1792 Ditto ditto in 1835 With proportionate numbers of claimants.. In 1792 payments were made only half-yearly ; in 1835 they were made quar terly, and artificers and labourers' wages paid weekly ; and thus labour was considerably increased. In 1792 the number of clerks employed was 260, and in the present year the num ber did not exceed 210. In 1792, the payments were made half yearly, now they were made quarterly. There were 260 clerks in 1792, now there were not more than 210. In short, there was tenfold the amount of business now that was in 1792, and yet the establishment was in every respect less. He should not detain the House longer, but move the first resolution, that 26,500 men be voted for the service of the present year. Mr. L AI3OUCHE RE said nothing could be fairer than the statement of his Noble Friend. The present reduced state of these estimates was the result of a course of economy pursued by successive Administrations. He was not at all dis posed to detract from the merit of the present Government. The country was certainly indebted to the Duke of Welling ton's Government for many reductions in other public depart ments, but deserved no credit for the economy introduced into the naval service of late. That was entirely owing to his Right Hon. Friend ( Sir James Graham.) The total amount of the navy expenditure was now less by a sum of 1,300,0001. in consequence of his exertions. He did not say this from any party feeling, but in justice to his Right Hon. Fiend, to whom it was solely and entirely owing. During late sessions of Par liament, whenever the navy estimates were brought forward, and the economy of his Right Hon. Friend became the subject of observation, the way in which it had been met by gentlemen opposite was, by saying that the arsenals were neglected, the service rendered inefficient, and that ruin was falling upon the whole naval department. They insisted upon the neces sity of still further increasing it, but now under the head of naval stores they themselves called for 64,0001. less than that proposed last session by his Right Hon. Friend. This was a proof that his Right Hon. Friend did not push economy at the expence of the efficiency of the service. At present he should confine his observations to the vote now proposed, the number of men, and looking at the navies of Russia, of France, and other states, lie should not say that the vote proposed was ex travagant. He did not see how it could be less. The num ber of men was one thousand less than last yT,ar, and for this one thousand men an equal number or boys was t.. be substi tuted. This was a good plan. With respect to the pumber of clerks at the Admiralty and at Somerset-house, he enl2d truly say, from personal experience, that they worked in a man ner which often gave him great pain, and so far from wishing their number diminished, he would not be undisposed to in crease them. Admiral CODRINGTON complained that justice was not done to that meritorious class of men the pursers. Their half-pay was three or four shillings a day, and no increase had lately been made in it, in consequence of an arrangement formerly entered into. They might ultimately derive some advantage from it, but they had none at present. If a war was to break out to-morrow Government would profit to the amount of between 15,0001. and 20,000/. a-year by the num ber of pursers that would get upon the full pay. These useful men ought to have some immediate advantage from the ar rangement entered into. Men who were injured in the naval service were not so well treated as those who suffered in the land service. Would the House believe that if a man lost an eye there was no compensation for him ? He recommended one to the Admiralty under these circumstances. They gave him at first 91., then 41., and the third time that he applied he could obtain nothing. Clerks in the civil departments were better paid than officers, no matter what their length of service. Captain BERKELEY said he never saw an instance of such an application as that alluded to being neglected at the Admiralty. Admiralty CODRINGTON said he had made such appli cation, and was received with rebuke. Mr. HUME could not admit that they had arrived at the minimum of expenditure.—( A laugh.) Before long he hoped to see the navy estimates much less. He had not the esti mates of 1792, to which the Noble Lord referred, now by him, but he believed they differed from those quoted by the Noble Lord. He wished to know whether the number of men now proposed to be voted was the same as the number actually upon the books ? Lord ASHLEY said at the close of the year the number upon the books would be the same as that voted. Mr. HUME continued. He should like to know what rea son there was for keeping up a larger number of men now than in 1818 to 1832. In 1822 the number of men was 22,000. Why add 3,000 or 4,000 to that now ? The Gallant Officer examined by the Finance Committee gave it as his opinion that the establishment was too large, and that no greater num ber of men was required than in 1792. The number in that year was 16,471. Why should it be greater now' The Noble Lord had no right to claim any merit for reductions in the pre sent estimates. The only economy he saw in them was a re duction in the stores. If there was any particular reason for an increase of men now beyond 1792, the House ought to be made acquainted with it. Not more than one-half the number of the ships now afloat was necessary. There were not less than •22 on the West India station and Nova Scotia, One third of that number would be quite sufficient to protect the whole of their commerce in that part of the world. There was no chance of a war now. .• Sir R. PEEL did not think the Hon. Gentleman was justi fied in the observations he made. The Hon. Member said that when once a number of men was voted, they could not got them reduced. Mr. HU ME did not make the observation. Sir R. PEEL—lie so understood the lion. Gentleman. The vote now proposed was a sufficient proof that there was no unwillingness to further reduction, if it could be made consistently with what the efficiency of the service required. The lion. Gentleman the Member for Middlesex asked what was the precise number of men required in the present cir cumstances of the country ? Suppose 26,000 to be called for, it would be no easy matter for him, or for any other person, to demonstrate whether or not 1,000 of that number might be cut off without injury to the public service of the country. The best way would he, to appeal to his expe rience upon this point. The disposition of the late First Lord of the Admiralty ( Sir J. Graham) to economy in the department at the head of which he was placed, was ad mitted, and no person was more disposed than himself to give the Right Hon. Baronet credit for it. • He was quite ready to appeal to the Right Hon. Baronet, and to ask him whether he would deem it prudent to reduce this vote by a greater number than 1,000 men ? He might appeal in the same way to the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, and ask whether he, from his knowledge of this branch of the public service, would think it convenient or expedient to propose a further reduction ? But, said the lion. Member (Mr. Hume), why not bring down the number to what it was in 1792, or 1817, and the years immediately succeeding ? lie might, with equal propriety, and with no greater chance of a satisfactory answer, ask the Hon. Member why the number should not be lower now than in 1792 ? Why select that year in particular? What good reason was there for making 1792 the standard to which every branch of the public expenditure was to be referred, and by which it was to be tested? Sup pose the public service had required more than 26,000 men in 1 792, that surely would not be deemed a sufficient reason for their voting a greater number than was now proposed. The argument of the lion. Member would be a good one if the circumstances of 1792 were precisely the same in other respects as those of 1834. But were they the same'? For instance, as respected the West India Colonies, were they similarly circumstanced in both years ? In 1792 there was not, as now, a great moral experiment in progress—(hear, hear)—which in its results might most materially affect the peace and prosperity of these colonies. In 1792 South Ame rica was not divided, as now, into a number of independent states, over which they might not perhaps be • able to exercise the same influence as over older states. If the lion. Member made inquiry into the subject he would find that numerous applications had been made to the British Government for the aid of naval force against the numerous piracies that were con stantly taking place in that part of the world. It was quite impossible to demonstrate by logical reasoning what was the precise number of men that might be necessary if judgment on this head could only be formed from general relations, and from the naval armaments kept up by the other States of Europe. At a time when a naval force was required in the Mediterranean and the West Indies, and while the new States of South America were- not completely settled, would it be prudent to vote a smaller number of men than was now pro posed ?—( Hear, hear.) Mr. 11 U ME—Did the Right Hon. Baronet mean to say that their commerce was unprotected in 1792? In that year they had the same number of men, 2,534, on the West India station, as they had now ; and in the Mediterranean there were more, by 1,100. The commerce of the United States was nearly as great as their own ; their commerce had suffered less indignity, and yet they had not one-tenth the number of ships of war to protect it. With respect to building ships, more money had been spent in that way, since the peace of 1815, than would build two navies. The money was actually rotting away, for many ships—the Nelson, for instance—were rotting in Portsmouth harbour ; and yet, notwithstanding all this, the construction of new ships was going on. lie begged the Right lion. Baronet to look back to 1 79 . 2, when he would find the expenses of building and repairing ships exactly ac counted for. Then every pound that was expended, every ship that was built or repaired, the materials, the wages of the men, all the expenses, in fine, were placed in the estimate of the year. That practice had been discontinued for a long time. lie was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would see the necessity of putting a stop this year to all building of new ships. He did not see, in the present estimate, an account of the new ships that had been built. With regard to the num ber of men, the marines, and the whole establishment, he should like to see them classed, officers and men, as they were in the army estimates. The staff appointments in the ma. rives, he would never cease to mention as a gross outrage. The 26,500 men were placed in one line. He should like to. see them regularly classed. The navy estimates were less clear than any other, and it was impossible to know the number of Admirals and Captains in the service. That was i'ot the case with respect to the army estimates. The Hon. Member concluded, by moving that the vote be reduced to' 20,500 nteu. The question having been put--- Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had some experience of the bench on which the Right Hon. Baronet sat, and he would say, that whoever sat there, would find it extremely difficult to suit the tastes of the different Gentlemen of that House __ ' I His frank opinion was, with respect to the reduction of the f number of men s t ate d in the estimate for the yeat, that none •to take place. He begged to Say, that be should ex- o ff'" --et if any reduction of men took place, and.par tromely re 6,. ticularfy at the pr.... - , -sent luncture.—Hear'..) His own opinion was founded, of course c'on no articularp , u g r iff c e a i o r f s ,t i .b n r fo o rin ug it i: knowledge of tion, but derived from his general sn. the the world, that whether he lookes: to our do:teets thel fo reign policy, no reduction at all ought to take plaee number of effective seamen. First, regarding the questiool Qf domestic policy, he thought that if Honourable Gentlemera would recur to former dates, particularly as related t impressment, they would find, that at no time were the of this country moo anxious that every method should be adopted rather than have recourse to the system of impressment. Keeping up the number of ~effective men would, in the case of a war, preclude, in a great degree the necessity of impressment. Still, looking to the matte as question of domestic policy, if people should not give Astir consent to keep up a proper standing force it would be impos sible in the case of a war arising to collect in a short time the large f?rce that would be necessary on such an ptnergency. The course Ministers had pursued in adding boys to .the ser vice was judicious. As he before stated, boys trained early to the service would be more likely to attach themselves to it, and they would not quit it to enter into the merchant service.. However, if boys were to be maintained it should only be iw a small proportion to the number of men. His opinion was that 2,000 boys ought to be kept up, and marines and men in proportion. It w2.s also of great impoptance that officers and men should undergo a proper previous training, and upon this point he was speaking in the presence of a Gallant Admiral who commanded an evolutionary squadron some few years since.. That Gallant Officer could testify that those evolutionary squadrons did good to the service, by keeping up the number of officers, and the number of men ought to keep pace with that oft officers. Besides, there was another question... There was an immense body of officers on half-pay, and to assimilate the number of men to the number of officers that were liable to serve immeditely in the case of a mar, it was absolutely necessary to keep a large number of men afloat. With respect to the other question, that of our foreign relations, the Executive Go vernment could best answer it. For his own part, looking to the state of foreign affairs, he thought it necessarythat a large fleet should be kept up, and that opinion he considered was fully justified by the remarks made by Hon. Members during the debate that had taken place that evening on the motion of the Honourable and Learned Member for Tipperary. He would put it - to the good sense of the House whether, looking to the affairs of foreign States, and considering their navies, it would not be a great act of impolicy, nay, he would say of danger, to reduce our naval force to the extent proposed by the motion of the :Hon. Member for Middlesex 7—( Hear, hear.) After having given his best consideration to thesub ject the only objection he had to the present estimate of the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley) was, that it was too low. Of course he could never consent to a further reduction, as was me , pd by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. m r ; I,ABOUC HERE thought that better arrangementi m i g h t b e ode with respect to building ships, and the impres sion on Lord'A.uckland was that some i m p rovemen t mi g ht be introduced into thai department. H e h o p e d th a t th e attention of the Board of Adm it;dty would b e ca ll e d t o th e su bj ec t, f o r - if it was, the consequence w ould be in a very few y ears ,a con estimates. siderable reduction in the navy Dr. BOWRING considered tn.:t great improve men t was made in the form of the present estiina:f-', for which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth was to be thanked. Still the estimate was not in such a shape as to enable the House to judge of the whole calculation; in some parts of it: there were sufficient details, in other parts there were none, and in several parts there were so many incongruities that Hon. Gentlemen could not clearly see their way. He knew that a system might be adopted that would put an end to the faults of the present one. He saw capital vices running throtigh the whole of the present estimate ; for instance, the department of expenditure was often made the department of receipt. There was another department of which by the present estimate fin judgment could be formed; he meant the naval stores, &c. was necessary to know the amount of stock of various articles in the stores, in order to be able to form a judgment thereupon. He was aware that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had made every effort to arrive at the real state of things. At that late hour of the night he would not trouble the House with any further observations, but with respect to some parts of the estimates, according as they were submitted to the House, he would with great humility make some remarks, with the view of improving the mode of drawing them up for the future. —( Hear. ) Mr. G. F. YOUNG hoped that the Hon. Member for Middlesex was not serious in moving for a reduction of the es timated number of men. It appeared to him that there were many things connected with the civil service of the navy that could never be well-regulated without a Committee of that House, or without what was preferable, as being most likely to be efficient, a Commission of Inquiry. Sir E. CODRINGTON thought that the number of ma rines should be kept up, and mentioned an action (we believe Navarino) in which they were highly serviceable. The evo lutionary squadron alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet, had been of great use in rendering both officers and men fitter than they would otherwise be for the service. Lord ASHLEY said that Government was continually re ceiving complaints from the officers on foreign stations on ac count of the insufficiency of their crews. It was but the other day the Commodore on the South American station trans mitted a complaint of that nature. Now, as to the objection to building new ships, modern improvements in shipbuilding rendered the practice necessary. Several new ships had been constructed, and he knew that those built under the directions of Captain Symonds had excited universal admiration. An instance occurred not long since of the best sailors in the Portsmouth squadron being completely distanced by an Ame rican vessel of the same construction. If the Government of the country did not adopt the new improvements in shipbuilding what would be the state of our Navy in the event of a war? Mr. G. F. YOUNG was in possession of a drawing or engraving, published fifty-four years ago, which represented a model similar to that after which the Vernon was built. The model alluded to had been submitted to the Board of Ad miralty of the day and was not approved of, so that if this prin ciple of ship construction was good, at any rate it was not new. With respect to the allusion of the success in shipbuilding of Captain Symonds, he heard that gentleman had constructed ships, steam-boats particularly, and among others the Tar- , torus and Blazer, which had totally failed. Before he sat down he wished to know from the Noble Lord why a larger sum was now asked in proportion to the number of men than was voted last year ? Lord A SHLE Y, in replying, said that the number of small ships in commission was greater this year than last. Small ships required a greater number of officers than large, and this it was that occasioned the excess of 10,0001. in the present estimate. Sir S. WH A LLE Y declared that the present estimates were the most monstrous which had ever been laid before Par liament, and he therefore hoped the Hon. Member for Mid dlesex would divide the House upon his motion. _ Mr. E. BULL E R expressed a hope that the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Middlesex would persist in his amendment if only to show that they were in earnest. lie had voted with the lion. Gentleman in the minority of last year, and having voted against the Whig Government he thought it was now only an act of justice to vote against the Tories.— ( Laughter.) Indeed the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Middlesex was bound to show that his present opposition was not the result of party motives. Lord D. STE CART thought that the present situation of the country with regard to Foreign powert required that an increased naval force should be maintained, and if the lion. Gentleman the Member for Middlesex persevered in his motion he must vote against him. Sir .1. GRAHAM—Although he had no official informa tion to go upon, thought it right before the Committee went to . a division to put the matter in the proper point of view. The' lion. Gentleman (Mr. E. Buller) asked why a larger naval force was required now than in any of the years from 1817 to 1822 , and he would answer that question, although, as he said before, he had no official knowledge upon the subject. Let them only look to the.naval establishments kept up by Russia and other foreign Powers. Russia had 37 sail of the line in the Baltic, and 12 in the Black Sea, while the establishment of this country consisted of no more than ten sail of the line. Such a fact he submitted was quite sufficient to justify the present increose. Mr. HUME said that as the estimate before the Committee had not been sufficiently discussed, and as it was now close to one o'clock, an hour too late to proceed with business so im portant, he must move that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.—( General cries of " 'No, no," " Divide, divide.") lion. Gentlemen talked of dividing, but did they recollect that the vote had scarcely been entered upon yet ?—( Cries of " Well, then, go on, go on.") He did not choose to go on.—( Renewed cries of " Divide, divide.") He wished to ask the Noble Lord upon what principle he could call on them to vote money without knowing what it was for? Lord ASHLEY—It is for the service generally—for all classes, from the senior Admiral down to the cook's boy. Mr. HUME—These estimates should be made out as the army estimates were. They did know how the money voted for the army was to be distributed, but in the navy_ estimates all such details were studiously avoided. Really it was not right that they should be called on to vote lumped sums in this we':. The information he desired could be supplied by Monday. Sir R. PEE L—These estimates are prepared in precisely the same manner as those of last year.—(Hear.) If the Hon. Member for Middlesex wished for inforMation he had ample time to move for it, inasmuch as he was in possession of the estimates on Sunday last.---( Hear, hear.) lie admits that it could be got between this and Monday ; and if it were a matter so easy to be procured, why did he not call for this in formation before the estimates were brought forward ? Mr. HUME observed, that without the production of these details the estimate was so unintelligible that they should not be required to vote it. Admiral ADAM fully agreed with his Hon. Friend that the details should be given. The average wages per month was 3/. lls. per man, and it ought to be shown exactly what each man of every class received. Such details 'would . S_ v/it ,z_l2 r r _ vtir 7,e11 1 If. _ - 7 I. J