The Sun. — London, England, 1835-07-24 00:00:00

~``~--'- I. CORPORATIONS-SOLE. Gross 1. The annual revenue of the con tinuing and Suppressed Saes appears, by the report oft he Eceesiastical Re venue Commissioners, to amoun to (see Ist Report, pages 4', 42)... .£151,n .£l_'B,BoB7 12 4or L: 1 8,808 8 3 N.B. The principal sources of this revenue arise from rents reserved by lease and annual renewal of tines; but the true mount of Episcopal re venue is even greater than is above stated, as it appears, from the Coin. missioners' Report, that there are 213 tenants under the Sees, boding fir terms of 21 years, wficsa annual re newal lines are nit included. 2. The income arising from glebe 1.01.1 s amounts, annually, to ' 92, 0 00 0 0 80,000 0 0 Deducting the reserved rents and expenses of collection. 3. The income arising from minis ters' money, amounts annually to ... 10, t 00 0 0 9,500 0 I 4. The income arising from F.c- deducting r/ el, siastical Tithe Compositions per cent. for i. £535,0. 0 0 0 collection. _ _ of which there belongs to Archbishops and . Bishops, and to corpo rations aggregate, held either in their, own hands or let to tenants at reserved rents '3,218. 5 5 531,781 14 7 505,1!;2 11 10 deducting per cent. for collection. £7e4.909 611 £73,493 . 1 1 11. CORPORATIONS—AGGREGATE. L The income belonging to Deans and Chapters, as a common estate, amount: to 1,042 11 5 928 0 2 2. Ibe income arising from eco ninny estates, and befogging to Deans and Chapters, is 11,055 14 7 10,592 18 In 3. The income arising from estates of Mir.or Canons and Vicars Choral, is 10,5`510 5 9,999 13 6 X 807,513 12. 4 .£744,916 13 7 • The difference between this sum and 45,0001., the gross amount of tithe compositions belonging to these corporations, is Enjoyed at present by their lessees under existing leases. To this account was to be added the item of 5,500/., being the amount of rents received in houses and lands. and of an. nual renewal fines payable to dignitaries and prebendaries as such. Now since that income had been allotted to the uses of the Church, he would inquire, in order to put it to the test of its working—to the test of its utility, and of all on which its desirableness as an establishment was founded, and in which alone it could be justified—what had been the result with reference to the growth of the conforming and the dis senting population? His Noble Friend the Member for Northumberland (Lord Howick) in his most able speech of the previous night, had quoted the proportions which had ob tained at different times between the Catholic and Protestant population throughout Ireland ; he (Lord Morpeth) had those proportions at various periods drawn out in detail, and if the House desired, he would read a statement of them.—(Cries of " Read, read!") The Noble Lord then read the following statement of the proportions of Protestants to Catholics in the several dioceses of the two periods of 1766 and 1834. 1766. 1834. Armagh .. lil-sth.l Derry Down and Connor ... 10 2 2-3 d Drtimore Raphoe 1 1 1-sth Kildate 1 3i Kilmore, Ardagh 1 44 ... 1 6 Cashel • Cork and Ross 1 5 Cloyne Elphin Killaloe 1 9 Killalla Tuam But during the whole period which had ela p sed in the inter val, had the supplies of the Church remained stationary ?—had they languished ?—had there been no " feeders" to it—to use again the term which had so forcibly rivetted itself in the memory of the Right Hon. Baronet from the time that he (Lord Morpeth) had employed it in a speech which he had formerly addressed to the House.—(Hear.) It had been stated, he believed by his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that for Churches built by Par liamentary aid since 1800, the country had paid 415,1851. For those which had been built in the eighteenth century 61,5801. had been paid. Of glebe-houses 480 had been built since 1800 at a cost of 326,881/. ; in the eighteenth century 163 had been built at a cost of 16,775/. Glebe lands had been purchased within 50 years at a cost of 61,487/. ; so that a sum of 920,900/. had been applied in the eighteenth century and since 1800 to the service of the Church, in addition to its annual income. What, then, was the state of things which these facts presented, but that of a constantly increasing Church property, with a progressively diminishing Church population 2—( Loud cheers.) With such a state of things existing, he could hardly dread the title of spoliation as ap plied to him in his attempt to remedy it ; and he must con -fess that he did not consider it as an objection to the mea sure which the Government bad brought forward, that it did effect a great change. Of course, if he did not think that change to be at the same time an improvement, he should not support it, nor recommend it; but the mere cir cumstance of its being a considerable alteration in no way inspired him with any distate towards it.—( Hear, hear.) He knew well how greatly he differed from the Noble Lord, and how greatly the House too differed from the Noble Lord on the general question of appropriation—the resolution of April last spoke for that ; and he confessed that, with all his exalted and unfeigned respect for the very high abilities and the not less high and slitning character of his Noble Friend, after having once heard him declare, in his place in Parlia ment, in so many plain words, and with .a grave face, that if every Protestant were swept from the face of the land, not even in that case was he prepared to depart from his prin-. ciple of non-appropriation—( Loud cheering)—he must own that all hope of realizing that object of his ambition—an agreeinent with his Noble Friend—had departed from him. —(Renewed cheering.) In the Bill before them the seques tration or suspension of parishes was limited to places in which the number of Protestants was under 50 ; but his Noble Friend wished for no such limitation in his suspending machinery. He found by a return laid before that House that one of the eight benefices which had been suspended under the Noble Lord's mensure, Erry Rectory, in the diocese of Cashel and the county of Tipperary, contained no fewer than 53 Protestants. Here, however, he must own that his own return rather failed him, for in that he found the Pro testant population of the benefice of Liicleary, in the county and diocese of Cork, to be set down at thirty. He looked at the return of the Public Instruction Com missioners and found it there set down at 83 ; and he ac cordingly began to suspect that a case of partiality was thus made out against those Commissioners, though in the opposite direction to that in which it is imputed to them by Gentlemen on the other side. Observing, however, that the number of members of the Established Church in Liscleary was returned as amounting to eighty-six in 1831, and to eighty-nine in 1834 • and that this return was confirmed by the statements given of the entire population cf the diocese, that in the return which he now possessed giving the number 1,410, whereas, in the return of 1821, 2,807, and in that of 1834, 2,909 were respectively given ;—he thought that it must be obvious, that the Bishop who forwarded the return referring to the esent period, had computed the number of families in stead of the number of heads in the Protestant population of the parish. At all events, if the return of the Public Instruc tion Commissioners were correct, an appointment to a church had been suspended under the act of his Noble Friend, in a parish containing eighty-three members of the Church Esta blishment. Then as to the 51. stipend, the announcement of which, when first made to the House, was received in sn marked a manner, it now turned out that however well calculated that proposal may have been to excite amusement, it could not lay claim to the charm of novelty.—( Hear.) For it appeared by the same return which announced the suspension of eight be nefices nnder his Noble Friend's Act, that fur one of them, the benefice of Came, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had as signed a stipend of 41. to the incumbent of the neighbouring parish.—( Cheers.) It should be borne in mind, that the Bill before them, offered 51. when there was neither church nor glebe-house, nor flock, nor duty. For Seskenan vicarage, containing from twenty to for ty members of the Established Church, they had assigned Si. as the payment to be given to the neighbouring incumbents; in that of Killtevnan Rectory, where the number of Protestants of the Established Church was fourteen, they had also assigned 51., and the same amount for Dunbyn Rectory, as well as for Erry Rectory, in which the number was 53. There was another instance, not men tioned in the Return, but to be found in the Report of the Public Instruction Commissioners, of a beaefice in the Pro vince of Leinster (we could not catch the name), in which 4/. had been assigned to the rector of an adjoining benefice. Ile now came to the change which the measure effected in Unions—a subject more complicated and difficult. The cir cumstances of these Unions were so very various—were in volved in so much difficulty, in respect both of the number of their population and their existing condition, that be thought it would be impossible to deal justly with the clergy who were to fill the benefices which they composed, with the Pro testant flocks who were to be found within them, and with the public whose interests they were bound to consult, if they did not vest somewhere—(and if they vested it any where, surely they ought to vest in the most high responsible quarter)— that very large discretion of which his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for St. Alban's (Mr. Ward) had in his most impressive speech made some complaint, but which the Right Hon. 13arenet had entirely overlooked. In his opinion the effect of the 77th clause of this Bill must be, in the apprehension of every man who gave it a fair consideration, to leave it at the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant and his Council to take into consideration all the circumstances of the unions, and to deduct from them only such sums as they might think proper—of course, if they thought proper, deducting nothing at all. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that he had before him forty cases illustrating the effect of the measure in reference to unions ; he selected, however, only three, .be (Lord Morpeth) had no doubt that he selected them with his "11 ~31 tact and discretion. The first was the What was the case of this union, and union of Dundalk. . s what the recommendation o. yt- C omm is sioners re . n. , of spectinr , unions of parishes in regard to it. Dundalk consisted only of 171. 16s. Bd., and the value of the glebe land, which the Right lion. Baronet omitted, but which is not material, was reported to be 681. ss. ; the tithes THE SIN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JULY 24 1835 ' , bUlld v e 4 41 11 lebe-houses ; Lut under the present- Bill culd be garged with a tax of Al. per cent.—( Hear, And therefore he was justified in saying that 1 , 1 Bill e ff ectually destroyed the enactments of the Ch urc h ~etnporalit i e s Act. With respect to the first, it would be de tble in the first place to ascertain what was the estimated j ale nlit of the sums to arise from these suspended benefices. ii:; r 4 Grey, in th e i ntro d uct i on o f t h e Ch urc h Temporalities be i nto the H ouse o f Lords, in 1833, stated that there would e rooabout 66 b enefices that would conic under t h e operati , i '! e effect o f t h e suspension clause ; t h e gross revenue of though not stated by Lord Grey, was estimated to "' mo unt to 6,600/. ; and the provisions contemplated by the 'J seat Bill, of carrying the disappropriated tithes of dig tiltics and prebends (of which he would speak hereafter) to ;) e general fund of the Commissioners, would cover any defi- L , Ile !' of income that might arise by carrying the funds of p! suspended benefices, in which there were -less than fifty tonndtestams, to the reserve funds. With respect to the se --the funds arising from tithes, without cure, appro n 4ted t° dignitaries and prebends, these funds would form 14 ° to whatever. of the reserve fund ; neither would the pa c r e i n s t',, ari sing from them, included in the income of the 860 only ' enumerated by him on .a former occasion. That was therea return of the incomes of such parishes, or parts ( tic s as constituted parochial benefices. Now the digni- Ple t :' i d rebends referred to, were, in soe cases, either com -4$ ne P cure s , without any parochial duties annexed to them, a t f or he cas e o f t h e d eaner i es o f D romme Tuam, and Clon fortd, the precentorships of St. Patrick's, St. Canice, tpartl said others ; or these dignities and prebends consisted lUthes parish es w i t h paroc hi a l d ut i es annexe d, and partly of was of other without any parochial duties annexed for exampl e, the parishes,deaneries of Ferns, Limerick, and Kil ., 'He treasurership of Lismore, the prebends of Kilbrogan. ler daleB ge, and many others. Now let them see . w . hat will l ,e operation and effect of the Church Temporalities Act, preb t _ee Act of last Session, in regard to these dignities and lar ,vads, and what the operation and effect of them as re -I:due the present Bill. There could be no doubt but if the ,`" t r ' it Y or prebend were a complete sinecure, it would be corn lotorn,nttifor the Lord Lieutenant and Council to suspend it ta_ee alto gether, and to direct that the funds therefrom arising . be i • "led to the general fund of the Commissioners for the build i?g. and repai r of churches, or the augmentation of small et 'l l n a gs ' as the Commissioners might see fit under the Bill last Session. In the case of the deanery of Dromore, tree iconsists of the rectorial tithes of seven parishes, amount -4 ,4911. 195., without any cure of souls annexed, this being eareplete sinecure, and all others like it, the fruits of them st oners be car r i e d to t h e genera l f un d o f t h e Commis in . And now let them see the effect of these measures r eward to a dignity or prebend, which consisted partly of %Parochial benefice, and partly of rectorial tithes appropria tZ thereto, without any' cure annexed to these rectorial of Take the case of the deanery of Ferns . --th . e corps_ 13 .eonsists of three benefices, and the rectorial tithes of ~glass parish, without cure, the vicarage of Maglass, to r. !Ueh the cure of souls was annexed, forming part of Kil - union ; this being the case, when the deanery becatne I l t V 4ll t, it being a dignity, it would be still competent for I,, f e, Lord Lieutenant and Council to give the rectorial tithes ' ll aglass parish to the vicar of Maglass, under the Church cowedelit Act, if they considered the vicar insufficiently —but if the vicartvie or parish of Maglass should mai ° th CS3 than.so Protestants, and if the appointment to i,: i sicara ge s h ould, on th i s account, b e suspen d e d , then there e been due care an d f ores i g h t exerc i se d i n the framing of e,, P r esent Bill, by enabling the Lord Lieutenant and the .. 41 acil to 'direct that these disappropriated tithes should be eeei ed s i r , to the general fund of the Ecclesiastical Commis "nets, - for the building and repair of Churches and , e ntations of small li v ings ; a power which did not of st "efore—so that instead of the general fund in the hands it : 4 ' C ommissioners hieing at all .diminished or reduced, ' r o d actually be extended and increased . for the very tl e .c f , ° 'e of building Churches and augmenting livings, if 11Peo-s,P'et°urnitnylissioners saw fit. Thirdly, and with regard to the purchase fund, the income arising from it would „o%:ventually, under this Bill, be diverted from any of the pur ;oad' e , to which it was eventually intended it should have been eed it . anlicable, under Lord Grey's Temporalities rated period tonal inducements to realize this fund within a li Posi ng (3f years, were held' out to the tenants, and sup pert:lg the income estimated to arise from the sale of these re a r l a ities should be realized in two years, or the inte teo:' she capital should at all events be realized (because the z ot i g tags, would be all owe d to b orro w money at 34 per cent., and e their estate, paying to the Commissieners 31 per cent. th e Principal was liquidated), what would be the effect of lize(role arrangement ? Why the interest of the monies rea sent ;„ 11 this way would be 42,0001. 'during the lives of the pre with t,ee_zieuatneebeen it t y s of benefices. This 42,000/. would be charged of 28,0001. a•year, to uphold the incomes of P"oisit'xoi3titlg' incumbents to 75/. in every 1001. worth of corn or 4 1 „ a s the difference between the 28,000/. and 42,0001., the e p1? . . 1 ., alear, would be made immediately available to sio4',7, e rat Purposes to which the general fund of the Commis eeists 's 'applicable • and on the expiration of the lives of the h e riling i ncumbents,' the whole of the 42,000/. would remain to aadteedapplicable to the same purposes as originally . Con hy Lord Grey, namely, the augmentation of small b o va gs, and the building and repairing of churches and glebe -4f - s . It was clear, then, that the present Bill did not in- T r rn ere with, much le ' ss repeal, the provisions of the Church li e o — f P, lt ) ralities Bill, as contended for by Sir James Graham. that the great difficulty under which the argument on th , i .s i 'cl a e . of the House laboured, was to answer the questions Qevd been addressed to them, 'as to whether they would' e an availabl e surplus, after supplying all the imaginable lesiastical purposes to which the Church revenues could be "ieeeted. He did not, However, shrink from that difficulty._ (Ilea r, hear. l ) He ad m i tte d at once, that in one point of tile v there were many things which had been advanced by to °Pnosite sid e o f the House, which they might find it hard th o answ er•—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He thought th e m any of the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet and e on. Gentlemen opposite would be i r resistible, if it w ere p o t for the fact that they were legislating for a country, the Znitiers of the Established Church in which ranged between s e ,„ 4 o and 900,000 people, while the numbers of the Dis. 1,, - ,, ; s er s included 7,000,000. (Loud cheerine . .) Remem lioilg the numbers that were ranged on each side —when s awthe zeal—he begged pardon of the Right Hon. 11 0 . „" e s—he ought, perhaps, to say the tolerance of the Gentlemen opposite, and marked the high tone in ti ot `l! they were talking of the . invasion of right§, he could th • "IP Platting -the question .to f fimlf, what would be (NZ f eelings if, by any change—bf the chance of con site t o r ally other accident, they found themselves in a ko Thou in which the doctrine, he would not say of the Ro lithil,easteelics, but of unitarianism, was in the ascendant? . toe, b - Y vere assessed for the support of such doctrines, thel, e 'rig the majority, their complaints would assume a form i,,rYthdiffereitt from those quiet disputes which had taken place the C ourt of Chancery respecting Lady Hewley's estates. endi laughs.) Really Hon. Gentlemen should sometimes , ( e -a c 13ur to place themselves in the situation of other people. di tt ' le ers.) If they did so, lie thought there must e t some l e : t r enee in their conduct.—( Cheers.) He was sure If" th ey would be more measured in their language. The said sid Le arne d G entleman w h o l as t a ddressed the House re o p en t ee State was b ound to support i ts re ligion, and that the tb a i e e of th e esta b l i shed religion rested on its truths. Why 44tyofrieneiple i mpose d u p on tose who dissented from t . it the H, crnal opposition to it, and who was . o decide as t — (Cheerine.) Was it from the fallible lipsofhe lip s , a nd Learned Gentleman, or was it from his own fallible 00 that this trial' was to be as' certained ? No, indeed. The a Y 1) intelligible ground of an established religion rested on Ivl l i e r i ng the Opinion of the majority.—(Opposition. Lee . 1 ' were answered by loud cheers from the Ministei Ministerial were of a majority exceeding the numbers of those to _Professed any other form of religion. The . pre§ent it.._ vr tl f Ireland; he admitted—indeed he realer had disguised etTe ct .6 . uld net allow them to carry that principle into ven ted last presc r ipti on an d presen t c i r cumstances pre askedlt• In consequence of that state of things he and • this H ouse to sanct i on what ha d b een fairly Ile e s tlY described as a com p rom i se .—( Hear, hear, hear.) ta a k e nderstood that the Right lion: Baronet was prepared to fr om elijection to the transfer of any admitted superfluities ofa notorious sinecure benefice in the county of Kerry or vork, for the remuneration of a heard working ttnder-paid l l ° in Down or Armagh ; or, to use the words of the Right \\,'". Member for Cambridge, " to transfer the thinness of lti at , ,, rford to th e richness o f Clogher." He understood the e e rt MIL Baronet to consid er t h at i nstea d o f attac hi ng re . °es to the soil to which th e y b e l onge d, i t wou ld b e b etter '1 ) tit they should be assigned to p urposes f or w hi c h th e y m i g ht sr t ,ksnost be needed in that particular district, but for which share might be desirable for th e i r f e ll ow coun t r ymen in tn l %' distri cts . g In that the Right Hon. Baronet consented ,e-dist r ib ute f or the benefit of a sec ti on , " w hil e we ," 4 thee Noble Lord, " seek to re-appropriate for the benefit —(Loud ch eers .) He would conf ess , w h atever m i g h t thy 'e credit whi c h h e s h ou ld gain by th e assert i on, t h at i t was ei,o hi 4 e ls with rel ht uctance thbeat made out against he entered into the extreme ease . 1 1 he houg might the present di and ~,,u a s of the Irish Church. It was useless for the supporters to con v °eates of that Church to put on such a bold front, and ,:ilti,Lttilted forth such loud shouts of defiance both within and with an .. ta ^se walls ; yet it was no matter of surprise to him that nipt was made on the opposite side to defend the ground in ' they took up. They had heard various statements made rever e course of the evening respecting the present amount of ti ro tli t e s t disposable for Church uses in Ireland. It struck tl ntt nothing was more idle and futile than to quarrel on th w P o , Int—i nasmuch as t h ey had it attested on the b e st au to 1 7, en documents that could not err. He was prepared Ni g a ° through the different items, placing the most perfect Ilea_e_c on - the information furnished throughout.—( Hear.) p o ,,Z;auld venture to state the present gross r reynnues dis -1,4-;lie for Church uses in Ireland at 807,J33/.—( Hear, de e r; and the present net income at 744,926 1. He de er,,,seu from that three-tenths of the present amount of tithe ou'llosition, or 166,500/ , and then 'sixpence in the pound • that r educed amount, • or 9,700/. ; for he could not con 41;i's1 to take into account any further loss of thee Clergy of tit s Born' the expenses or t h e resu lt s o f the r ev i s i on the n es•—( Hear, hear.) The expenses, at all events, could 144,1 ! a pply to one year, and starchy the income of thee Church it wo 'een unjustly raised hitherto • he could not suppose that lie ot ,: il d be materially dimlnisleed by any revision—( Hear, 81 , 14 ,; lie had no reason to caleuicZte on a eiti.‘tivirtimaking, then, continued depres- A 0.. 0f the price of corn, for that might rise'. as we ll as, fall. the deductions which he had stti.7 ° ' e or , g every result which attended the revision of the tithe laed" °s itien, the sum at the disposal of the Church in Ire the the t w o then be 568,726/. He would read a statement of with s composing the income, and he would commence Lisho "annual revenue of the continuing and suppressed from P ,c l l "."—( Loud cries of " Hem 1" and ironical cheers e Opposition side followed the word "suppressed.") r e was h:s niistake ?--(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He was giving a statement tf the property to be applied to the uses of the Church ; and he had no reason w exclude the incomes of the sees suppressed by the Church Temporalities Act, because he had not yet understood that his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley, who was among those who had cheered at the word " suppressed") in that mea sure of his had alienated these revenues, or any part of the property of the Church in Ireland. Surely, then, no objection could fairly be taken to his, including the revenues of the suppressed sees in the income of the Church. The Noble Lord then read the following statement of the items of the income of Castletown, with which it is united, , were compounded for 2001. 6s. 5d., and constituted the greater part of the re venue, it was true ; and Dundalk, the county town, did con tain 1,555 Protestants, while Castletown only contained 14. But what did the Commissioners of Union recommend respect ing it ? viz., " that the Lord Primate states that this union will cease on the next avoidance, and that it is not intended to be renewed ; and the Commissioners state that they agree in opi nion with his Grace that a revival of this union is not desir able." And who were the sacrilegious persons who made this recommendation ? They were the Most Reverend the Arch bishop of Armagh the Primate of all Ireland, the Right Rev. the Bishops of Down and Connor, and the Bishop of Cloyne, besides the Lord Lieutenant, the Master of the Rolls, Dr. Radcliffe, and John Henry Foster.—( Hear, bear.) The next Union cited by the Right lion. Baronet was Cullen Union. What, too, did these Commissioners recommend in the case of Cullen Union? Why, the very same Commissioners stated that the continuance of the Union between Cullen and Mos toun appeared necessary, but they considered a partial disso'.u -' tion of the Union practicable and advisable , by se p aratin g the parish of Dromin from the Union, and with this view they recommended a church and glebe-house to be erected in Dro min. The third Union to which the Right Hon. Baronet re ferred was Kilgarriffe Union, which consisted of three parishes. and would according to him be left with only an income of 3571. Sr the support of two Cler g ymen. he ( Lord Morpeth) found on inquiry that these two Clergymen were all the time only one man, who held the two-fold situation of Vicar of the parish, and Prebendary of the pariah of Island, held in union with this vicarage, and whose duty as Preben dary appeared, by the Report of the Commissioners on Deans' and Chapters' property, to be to preach five times in the year in the Cathedral Church. Before ho had heard the state ments of the Right Hon. Baronet, he had himself, wishing to see how far it was proper to vest so largo a discretion in the hands of the Irish Government, taken two cases—and the first two, which he found in the same volume as that containing the Returns relative to the Unions, both of the same class, and one of them being that of an union, all the parishes of which would aonie under the suspending portion of the Bill. Lord • STANLEY here interruptod the Noble Lord by handing across the table to him a ,volume apparently con ttining some Report, and requesting him to read a particular passage. Lord MORPETH proceeded to look at it, amid loud cries of " Order I" from the Ministerial benches, 4nd then said that he should leave it to his Noble Friend to read it.-....(L0nd cheers.) He had not seen anything to disprove what be had stated. His authority, it was true, might have deceived him; but until it was proved to have - done so, he should continue to entertain the most undoubting conviction of the tvutl► of the allegations which he had made.—( Hear, hear.) He was 4- h/ding, when he had received the interruption from his Noble Friend, to two case of Unions, the first which had come un der his notice in the Report. He wished to call the , atten tion of the House to all the parishes comprised in these Unions which came under the suspending clause of the fill as not containing BO members of the Establishment, as well 43 the other parishes belonging to them, the inhabitants of which varied in number. The numbers of the Members of the Es tablished Church in the two unions to which he rtferred, with the numbers of parishes which belonged to them, and the*Pro testants residing in them, were as follow : Members of Tithe First Union. ch. Estab. Comp. . 99 1 1 74 . 61 200 . 10 200 . 12 18Li . 14 325 . 0 34 . 0 0 . 0 Knoektapher Anghavilla Dunnemaggin Kilkeasy Derryraberry Killana Killcreddy Killkervill Protestants 196 1,044 The whole population ..... 7,507 Second Union. Palcroan Portnascully 111ud... 4 150 0 75 0 43 Protestayts 4 270 Population With regard to the latter union, in which the number of Pro testants was four, and the amount of tithe composition 270/., he did not. hesitate to say that such a case should be summarily dealt with ; but with respect to the first of these Unions, in which the total number of Protestants was 196, arid the tithe composition amounted to 1,044/., he thought that it presented quite a fit subject for the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Lord Lieutenant, in order that they might see whether some reasonable arrangement might not be come to, by wnich a due amount of remuneration would still be reserved to those who performed the duties in the unsuspended parishes of Knockto plier and Anghavilla, whilst a mere suitable appropriation might he effected with respect to this union than that by which the sum of 1,0441. was expended for the purposo of providing for the spiritual wants of 196yrotestants.—( Cheers.) A con siderable impreSsion was made upon the House on a previous night by a statement that there were 186 parishes in Ireland, which it was proposed, under the Bill to suspend or sequester ; but although the appointment of clerks to many parishes would be suspended under the provisions of the Bill, yet the appointment of clerks to the 'benefice of which these parishes might at present form part, would net necessarily be thereby suspended, and some painS had been taken to ascertain the effect of the 13111 witl, this view, in regard, not to the parishes, but the benefices, iu the following &sacses, which would be . as much affeete'd—if not more—by the provisions of the Bill, as almost any other diocese, excepting those of Meath and Cashel. The first was the diocese of Waterford, which had been materially re lied on by an Hon. Member who spoke last night. This dio cese at present consisted of 13 benefices, consisting of :12 parishes. The appointment of clerks to six of these benefices might, by the Bill, be suspended ; but of these six benefices one was a complete sinecure, and in two others there were not any Protestants and in the remaining three benefices, one only contained five Protestants, another 14, and another 19 Protestants ; and all these six benefices were, at the present moment, without either Church, glebe-house, or resident mi- nister in one of them. But the appointment of clerks to the remaining seven benefices in this diocese would, not be affected —the income of four of them would remain whole and un touched by the Bill, although that of the remaining three may be modified in part, inasmuch as they consisted of unions of parishes, in some of which it did not appear that there are any Protestants.—(Hear, and.-cheering.) He would next refer to the Lismore diocese. Out of forty-two benefices at present existing in this diocese, consisting of seventy-four parishes, as appears by the Report of the Instruction Com , inissioners, only ten benefices would be left without a se parate and individual minister, in consequence of these benefices being, at the present time, without either a church, glebe-house, or resident minister in any of these benefices, except two, in which a minister resided, to attend to the oc casional duties, although there was neither church nor glebe house in of these two benefices.—( Hear, hear.). And what was the state. of these ten benefices in regard to their Pro testant congregations ? One benefice was without any Pro testants ; four benefices with less than ten ; two benefices with twelve in each ' • and three benefices with Protestant con gregations, varying from twenty- two in the lowest, to thirty. one in the highest.—( Hear, hear.) It was true that the ap pointment of clerks to fifteen more benefices would be suspend ed ; but then in each of these benefices a seperate curate must be established (as there was either a church or a glebe-house in each of them) at an income, if the •Commissioners see fit, of 100/. in tithes, 25/ " in glebe, and the use of the glebe house, if the curate will only keep it in repair ; and what was the state of the Protestant congregation in these 1! benefices, some of them consisting of an union of two or three parishes ? In three of these benefices the Protestant congre gation was less than 20 persons ; in three more less than 30; in three more less than 40 ; and in one less than 50 ; in one less than 60 ; in two less than 70 : in one less than 80 ; and in the last, which is a union of three parishes, the Protestant congregation consisted only of 94 persons.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") So that,-in' the three benefices, which con- , . itiried less than 20 persons, the curate, if he were assigned lOU, would be paid at the rate of 51. a piece for each Pro testant; at the rate of 251. for each family, there being only four Protestant families resident in those benefices.—( Hear. ) The last was Cloyne diocese. Out of 83 benefices' in this diocese, consisting of 120 parishes, only 21 benefices would be left without a separate and individual clergyman; the state of the Protestant congregati6ns in which, was as fol lows :—eight of these 21 benefices were without any Proiest ants; eleven more were without, at this moment, either a church, glebe-house, or resident minister, and in not one of these eleven did the Protestant congregation exceed 27 per sons; in many of them it did not amount to any thing like 27 persona one of these benefices contained only one Pro testant ; and although the appointment of clerks to 13 other benefices in the diocese might be suspended, yet in each of these cases a separate curate must be appointed, as there was in each of them either a church or glebe-house, although in six of these benefices the Protestant congre gation did not exceed 20 persons, in two not more than 30, in three not more than 40, in one 60, and in another it was 78—leaving 49 benefices in the diocese, in which no suspension in the appointment of a deck would take place ; and that too in a diocese which will be as much af fected by the Bill as almost any other.—(Hear, hear.) His Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had dwelt the other night at considerable length on this side of the question—but he (Lord Morpeth) did not hesitate to follow his example, for it was only by the different Members of the Government addressing themselves to the immense mass of details by which this' question was surrounded, that the case could be fairly and adequately presented to the House.— ( Hear.) In the diocese of Cloyne to which he had last re ferred, he found that in itself the following was the number of the Protestants and the amount of tithe composition, in the following parishes of that diocese Members of Tithe Ch. Estab. Comp. X. Killatty Ballybea Templeracarigy ... 27 , 493 Ballyroarney Ardagh ... 14 600, Whitechurch Moogeesla Clonfriest The value of tithe composition in the diocese of Cloyne of 65 parishes. with less than 50 Protestants, was 15,253, and the total of the tithe composition in the same diocese was 43,3691 --(For the cure of a flock, said the Noble Lord, commend no to the pastorship of Clovne.—( Cheers.) The Right lion. Baronet, the Member for taloworth, calculated in the speech : , ..which be introduced his motion to the [louse, the number ... of benetic,cS iri Ireland to be 1,335. Now he admitted tha t I D er e were, in strict legal terms, 1,385 benefices in Ireland ; but what :cal the state of many of these benefices ? There were of sinecure benefices about GO, others of them consisted of prebends or dignities of, or belonging to, cathedral churches, with no other duties annexed but that of preaching five or six times in the year in the cathedral churches, as would appear by the second Report of the Revenue Commissioners relating to deans and chapters—( Hear, hear.) But the number of parochial benefices in Ireland could not be reckoned at more than 1,250. And of the total number of 1,385, there were 264 benefices, in which the appointment of clerk would be suspended by this Bill, and in every instance where there is a church or glebe-house, a separate curate would be appointed for each individual benefice, at an income, it may be, from tithes and glebe of 1251., with the use of the glebe-house, if he only kept it in repair.--( Hear, hear.) Now this reduced the existing number of parochial benefices from 1,250 to 1,000; and as there were abut 500 benefices in Ireland, consisting of unions of two, three, or more parishes, it certainly would be compel tent to inquire into and ascertain the number of members of the Established Church in each parish of any such union, with , a view to a different distribution of Church property.—( Hear. hear.) Some of these unions were of very great extent ; in deed, Ballinakil, in Tuam diocese, consisting of nine parishes, appeared by tri.ie Report of the Instruction Commissioners, to be fifty miles distant as to the extremo points of the union, and certainly nothing could be more inconvenient to the mem bers of the Established Church resident therein, than to allow such an union to continue ; and it would become the duty of the Commissipners to assign each parish in which there were no less than 50 Protestants, to the minister of the church most conveniently situated to them. It might be said, however, that if a sum of 1251. were allowed to a curate for one of these benefices, it would reduce the amount of that surplus which it was intended shculd be available for the purposes of national education. He thought that a large surplus would still re main if tl i e prilpip)e (pi which the measure was founded was adhered to, and which was that there whore superfluous in come existed, that the wants of the clerical members of the Church %NW lived on the soil, or possessed the requisite num ber of parisitionm, and peal:wined the duties their office, should be amply provided for. It had been argued, too, that in the first statement which he made of the funds which would be applicable to the purposes of national education, he had not cal- oulated nu the effects which would be produced by those ciausea is the iti whlch proviOcel fV the veetietion of the amount to be paid to the rector of' oeFiaiu buolices in which there might not be the prescribed number of Protestants ; and it was added that he had in all such cases provided that the cum 4hc q ul4 not lily)); below 3001. a-year. Now he had not by the hill limited ttic att.iiiot to Awl, ii,:yp4r l 14.0 he contended that the amount of income should be proportiood to the ex tent of . ecelekiastical-duty. , —(l-lear, hear.) That he had, .IiGIVPVOI' ; UM* grugncl fgr e4 lc u l gt h r gg funds which he thought might bn applied to purposes of education, from the operation of the clauses contained in this measure, he felt i.ittidied hp ghe l gd ke able to prove by the retgrns which he held in his hand, 1. Templemore, diocese of Derry---Gross value, 3,240/. ; tithe composition, 3,235/. ; value of glebes, Si. ; Protestant population 6,414 (nearly 11 per head for religious instruction.) Alultalfrafik, dicioeso oX ionukgliCtruzz value, `i,051. ; tithe composition, 851/. ; value of glebes,l,2o4/. ; Protestant population, 3,332 (being 12s. Id. per head.) 3. Kilmore, diocese of Armagh--Gross value, 2,078/. ; tithe composition, 1,213/. ; value of glebes, 865/. ; Protestant popula tion, 4,014 (being 14 711 , per /lea ) 4. Donoeglunore, diocese of Derry—_--Cfruss value, 2,115/, ; tithe composition, - 1,440/. ; value of glebes, 675/. ; Protestant popula tion, 1,677 (being about 1/. ss, per head.) 0. I,niith, dinego .4 Armagh—Qm.i4 y 41441 2 , t457, ; tithe com position, 1,0884 ; value of glebes, 601, ; Protestant population, 201, (being nearly 81. per itekl.) The Second Class consists of Clergymen's Incomes, as above, exceeding 1,5001., compared with the Members of the Established Church in those benefices, Papp !lioPrgt 3 e9f Derr;`—cifeta valne t 1,6007. ; tithe com position, 1,0001. ; value of glebes, 600/. ; Protestant population, 4 .4720 (beitig Ils, 9.1, per head, ) 0, Clonsoagh, dicovo At I.44l,lln—Gross value, 1,500/. ; tithe composition, 1,500/. ; value of glebes, nil. ; Protestant popuation, 2,409 (being nearly 12s, sd. per head.) 3. Dona heady, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,902/. ; tithe aorapooition t 1,101, i yaltie of glebes, 5521. ; Protestant popula tion, 1,633 (being nearly 11, 3s. per head.) 4. Maghera t diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,665/. ; tithe com position, 110141. I value of glebes, 650/. ; Protestant population, 1,142 (being 1/. 9s. per head.) 5. Saughboyne, diocese of liaphoe—Gross value, 1,849/. ; tithe composition, 1,700/. •, value of glebes, 149/. ; Protestant popula tion, 790 (being 2/, 62. per heath) • The Third Class consists of Clergymen's Incomes, as before, exceeding 1,0001. per annum, 2s compared with the Mem bers of the Established Church in their benefices. 1. Termannauguirh, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 1,483/. ; tithe composition, 803/. ; value of glebes, 6801. ; Protestant popu lation, 1,722 (being 17s. per head. ) 2. Loughgilly, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 1,393/. ; tithe composition, 808/. ; value of glebes, 585/. ; Protestant population, 737 (being 11. 7s. 9d. per head. ) 3. ClOiileigh, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,190/. ; tithe com position, 840/. ; value of glebes, 3501. ; Protestant population, 806 (being 1/. 9s. 6d. per head.) 4. Tamlaghfinlagan, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 1,233/. ; tithe composition, 1,0001. ; value of glebes, 235/. ; Protestant pri pula.tion, 817 (being 1/.'los. sd. per head. ) 5. Creggam, diocese .of Armagh—Gross value, 1,3501. ; tithe composition, 1,050/. ; value of glebes, 300/. ; Protestant popula tion, 686 (being nearly 2/. per head.) _ _ The Fl i ntrth Class consists- of Clergymen's Incomes, as before exceyding 5001. per annum, as compared with the Members of tte Established Church in their benefices. 1. Norevagh, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 630/. ; tithe coat- , position, SSII/. - ;"`value of gielies, 50/:`; Protestant population, 546 (being 1/. 3s. per head. ) 2. Clencha, diocese of Derry—Gross value, 703/. ; tithe com position, 5551. ; value of glebes, 1481. ; Protestant population, 423 (being 1/. 13s. per head. ) 3. Dunleer, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 637/. ; tithe com position, 563/. ; value of glebes, 691. ; Protestant population, 239 (being 2/. 4s. per head.) 4. Sermonfeckan, diocese of Armagh—Gross value, 6731.; tithe composition, 620/. ; value of glebes, 53/. ; Protestant population, 165 (being 41. per head.) 5. Clonmany, diocese of Deny—Gross value, 505/. ; tithe com position, 4101. ; value of glebe, 951. ; Protestant population, 505 (being 1/. per head.) The Noble Lord then went on to allude to the correspondence in which the Bishop of Limerick had lately taken a part, and said, that the statements which were inadvertently made by him, coming from one who was unquestionably a man of learning, liberality, and piety, were more illustrative of the anomalous system in Ireland, than if a similar testimony was borne to them in a formal manlier. The Noble Lord then proceeded—lt has been stated in the course of the debate that there was no authority to be found in the Gospel for remov ing a religion which was once established. I have heard the Gospel quoted on both sides of the question, and in support of oda Niew of it. In my humble judgment there is no au thority to be found in the Gospel that should regulate the secural arrangement of benefices, or other matters of a tem poral nature connected with a church ; but it does, in my mind, prescribe that feelings of true religion and good-will to all men should universally prevail, as a debt which is due from man to God.—( Cheers.) But, according to the Con servative reading, the Gospel must be differently interpreted ; for they maintain that we have no right to alienate ecclesi astical revenues, and do not hesitate to avow that the State ought to prescribe what should be the true religion. Thus they are for rendering to Caesar what is God's, and to God what is Csar's.—( Cheers and laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, at the conclusion of his speech—and I assure the House, to whose indulgence I am so deeply indebted, that I am drawing to that of mine—said that of the two alternatives before us, it would have been more manly and independent to establish the Roman Catholic religion alone in Ireland; and I remember the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin also stated that, rattier than consent to the Bill, he would agree to the total demolition of the Church Establishment. Now, fer that alternative we are Rot prepared—( Cheers): we do intend to maintain the Church : we hope to improve it : but of this we are sure, that if you leave it in its present state costly, cumbrous, and disliked, you will have no chance of saving it.—( Cheering for some minutes.) Will you, then, leave the question unsettled? This House may—the other House of Parliament will—throw out the proposed measure ; but when they have done so, and the present outcry ceases, and the excitement is subdued, and the angry invectives are stilled, then, when the arithmetic of this Report of the Com missioners, backed now by the recommendations of the Right I-lon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) works its sure and steady pro gress in the minds of the people of this country, and when they have leisure and opportunity to weigh the proportions, and to digest the facts which it contains, I very much doubt whether, when we meet at the commencement of another ses sion, that the prospects of the Established Church will b^ found to have brightened in the interval—(Loud cheering), and whether we shall not find that the real, though less ex citable well-wishers to the Church, will discover their means of supporting and strengthening it. materially curtailed by the ruinous success of her misjudging friends and sacerdotal allies. (The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst cheers which con tinued for several minutes.) Lord STANLEY rose, but sat down immediately, in con sequence of the confusion and the discordant noises that pro ceeded from the Ministerial benches. Order having been, after an interval of some minutes, restored, the Noble Lord proceeded to address the House, and after the first sentence which he uttered the profoundest quiet reigned throughout it. He said that he would perhaps better consult the feelings and wishes of the House by abstaining from addressing it on that occasion after a discussion of three nights, and after the sub ject had been so fully, so ably, and so zealously discussed on a former occasion during seven nights, for then the principle under consideration he thought nearly similar to the present, though the evils to be apprehended were certainly not of that imposing and exciting nature which the present Bill was well qualified to produce. Yet, notwithstanding the discussions that had taken place, and the complete deve lopement of the tendency, character, and object of the Bill, he, bolding such opinions as he did, and was known to bold, and identifying himself so anxiously with the question of the Church Establishment, would consider it unfair to his own character, and would not perhaps be in accordance with the expectation of many Members of the House, if he should give a silent vote on the proposition submitted by the Right Hon. Baronet, because although there were many schemes Propounded, many suggestions thrown out for Reform in the Church, he considered that proposition was the only safe and dracticabl e proposition for allaying, in the first place, what ...Ter discontent and animosity was entertained against tlic. Established Church, whether that discontent and ant, - , c i ty were the result of the abuses and imperfections of the Esta- Dlishment, or were created by the instrumentality of dolma. ing, adventurous, and selfish enemies to it; anti, in the se cond place, for placing it on that, high and stable ground of utility and permanency that was at once conducive to the cause of religion, morality, and good order.—( Loud cheers.) That proposition he, for one, would cordially support, be cause it was a wise, a beneficial, a statesmanlike proposition-- it was a proposition of peaca and of public benefit, and be cause he was resolved to resist at all hazards what was dan gerous ani ill-judged in the Bill, while he would be satisfied to adopt whatever was sensible, salutary, or useful in it. It was not triumph, it was justice—it was truth—it was the public good he looked to ; this was what' he sought for, not the petty victory of a party, for a season.—( Cheers.) He heard it stated on the other side of the House, particularly by his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we understood), and he heard it with a surprise almost amounting to incredulity, that the speech of the . Right Hon. Baronet evaded the real question—that the question was not fairly dealt with, and that the speech aimed at carrying the audience to a conclusion different from what its words and bearings would warrant--that it meant one thing and stated another. He lamented to witness either this obliquity of in tellectual vision, which could not see a distinct proposition in its . proper light and form, or the sinister tendency of party, that would distort and misrepresent it.—(Loud bursts of applause.) If ever there was a speech delivered within that House or without it, bringing `home the force of demon stration to the mind of even the most sceptical ; beating down every, even the remotest, attempt at refutation ; combining mathematical calculation in its most enlarged scope, yet de cending to the minutest particulars, with the most consummate logical skill and power of rhetorical argumentation, it was that speech—(Cheers)—a speech that travelled in a chain of the most even, consecutive, and best-regulated induction—in a ca tegory of undoubted facts—step by step, to the conclusion, not merely winning, but forcing, conviction, upon the most reluc tant mind, whose invincible obduracy did not close every open ing to conviction, and carrying conscience and judgment along with it, where conscience and judgment were to be found— ( Loud cheering)—a speech that at once showed the mind of a master, throwing off the exuberance of his knowledge, and quelling incredulity itself into reluctant, but tacit—he re . . grettedit was tacit—acquiesconce in his details and his infe rences, his premises and his deductions. —( Renewed cheering. ) It was a speech worthy of the best and brightest days of our senatorial oratory, and was one that showed that statesman ship in its most philosophical, and, at the same time, in its most practical, shape, was' not yet extinct amongst us.—(Checr- ing.) To that speech where wag the answer? There was none, for there eauld to none. It was founded on the rock of truth, and by It the eddies of party acrimony would sweep without harm. It laid down premises which were truisms, and not desired by those whose jaundiced vision saw every thing through a discoloured maw% or whose passions, or prejudices, or ; it tiduht be Interest, would lead them to mis,r6.pmiont, or doubt, or deny—that speech, if there was sincerity or honesty in the House should &Ode the ques tion of appropriation ; for itsproultaa4 WOV no less .ques tionable than were PclfichiPangi just and tr7-c.—( Cheers.) If his A l + 4 ) 7 ' 4 (4Q we i rh ill r ht w is he d t ° "avoid absurdity and in justice, if they wished to their own principles in de fending the churels .., they wished only for reform and not destrUctiOn, they would separate the Bill into two parts.— hoar.) The propositions contained in the Bill were istinot and separate. Why, then, in conitnon fairness and common' justice,.and in respect for the common ggod, which they professed to have so much at heart, should they blend propositions that were inconsistent with each other? When the question'of appropriation was on a former occasion before the House, Lord Althorp and his colleagues had twenty times over declared that the two questions were different. They declared that one part of the Bill was for vindicating the law, and the other for the prospective purpose of securing-the in dependence and integrity of the Church. The Noble Lord, when introducing the Bill to the House, stated that it con- sisted of two distinct parts—one for the regulation of tithe property, the other for the regulation of the Church. He (Lord Stanley) did not introduce this subject to the notice of the House for the purpose of attacking the general policy of the Bill as a whole, but of bringing its proper cha racter, in its two separate forms, before them, and ena bling them to adopt what was good in it, and reject what was bad—that was, reject the appropriation clause. He thought that he had been well acquainted with the nature of the proposition they were called upon to decide. The re solution moved and carried was that any surplus funds should be applied to the purposes of the moral- and religious educa tion of the people of Ireland. If there were one ground more ligitimate than another for adopting the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet he thought it enunciated in that resolu- To that proposition, oil the very principle of its own resolution, he thought the House should come. Had the House heard the speech of his Noble Friend the Member for Northumberland ( Lord Howick), and the speech of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Morpeth), and would it say that, accord ing to those speeches, any surplus revenue would be applied for the benefit of the moral and religious education, of the people of Ireland? When on a previous occasion they had been aruing the abstract principle of appropriation, he had inquired what would be considered a surplus? The only per son competent to give him an answer was the Hon. Mem ber for Tipperary ( Mr. Shell), who obligingly informed him that it was a surperplus. For the life of him, until then, he had not been able to obtain an explanation.—( Loud laugh ter.) That, however, which .he was most anxious to learn was, whether they were to adhere to the principle laid down in the resolution, or whether the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had determined plainly to state that, surplus or no surplus, they would appr4riate.,--CCheers, and a cry of Oh-i" from some Hon. Member.) lie liked that exclamation from the oppo site side of the House. lt induced him to believe that some Hon. Gentlemen yet might be found open. to conviction who had been previously labouring under the amiable delu sion that a surplus existed.—( Cheers.) His Noble Friend opposite in the course of the evening had not attempted to deny that ecclesiastical purposes might be discovered for the application of the surplus—that churches were in ruin, that glebe houses required building, that there were parishes with out cure of souls attached, and he might have added, that there were thirty-five thousand Protestants without any spiri tual instruction.—( Cheers.) Did he intcni that one single want of the Church should he supplied before they proceeded to deal with this alleged surplus ? On a former occasion, his Noble Friend (Lord Morpeth) had expressed a different opi nion. He wished his Noble Friend would repeat. his own words, but in lieu of those he had his printed speech, sanc tioned by his own authority, and he was happy in being able to produce so indisputable an authority. [The Noble Lord then read the speech in question, which was to the purport ' that the spiritual demands of the Church should first be pro vided for; but that, at present, the funds did not by any means meet the exigencies, and were clearly inadequate.]—( Loud cheers.) And why were they now called upon to vote away a surplus that not long back was asserted not to exist, and the existence of which could not now be established? Why, be cause in the year 1853 the debt would be cleared, and the ec clesiastical funds might then exhibit a surplus. We were to legislate now that at some future time a surplus might accrue. Now he would wish his Noble Friend plainly to state whether, it being proved that there was no surplus—whether, in fact, the abstract resolution of that House was nut rescinded ? The non-existence of the surplus was indisputable, and had been as clearly demonstrated as that -two and two made four. For years to come, according to previously-made admissions, any excess of funds, after supplying the ordinary wants or the Protestant Church, were to have been applied to the erection of glebe houses and the augmentation of small livings. He would not go into figures, alter the accurate statement which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had made the other evening. His Right Hon. Friend opposite ( Mr. S. Rice)—albeit, Chancellor of the Exchequer—felt the pressure of those figures, and declined to answer Ahem.— ( Loud cheers and laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman inquired why they did not oppose the principle of the Bill entirely— why consent to the second reading ? The Hon: Gentleman knew how to fight on his own ground, and so did they._ (Loud) cheers.) He would tell him why they did not oppose the principle. Because they did not wish to throw out the Bill. The Bill contained two principles—one not objectionable if modified in its details, and the other so objectionable that no modification or alteration of any kind could make it even to lerable.—( Loud cheering.) The lion. Gentleman ap peared to rejoice in the dilemma his fancy had created. lie would '° die in his place" rather than have consented to such a measure had he entertained the opinions of the Right lion. Baronet. This was 'no doubt very chivalric, but in that House, as well as in other places, it appeared that discretion was still considered the better part of valour. The principle of the Bill was marked with the approbation of one side of the House, and repudiated by the other. But the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to fight the battle upon the principle, for the fact was that he had no relish foi: the details. It had been shewn that after the deductions ‘vhich had been and would be made, there would be left for the support of the pa- ~ rochial Clergy of Ireland the sum of 288,1601. Now the Right Hon. Gentleman felt that this was not a state of things to justify appropriation. But he did not like to grapple with figures. Like Falstaff, lie could give reasons, but " reasons upon compulsion, nal I" ' No, no. Reasons might be " plenty as blackberries," but not upon compulsion.—( Loud laughter.) It had been said that in cases where there were more than fifty Protestant parishioners an adequate provision should be made ? What was an adequate provision ? An adequate provision, in the opinion of the Hon. Member for Cumberland (Sir J. Graham) and Earl Grey, for a Protest ant Clergyman was 300/. a year. It was the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when last year answering the Learned Recorder for Dublin, that 2001. a year for an incum bent in England or Ireland did not spew a superfluous degree Of wealth. The Noble Lord then proceeded to state that in the Church of England the average income of an incumbent was 263/., while-in Ireland it was 1861. And if it were ad mitted that the Church Establishments of England and Ire ' land were to be - On.a footing of equal respectability and dß ' cieney it was clearly' a converse reason that the stipend of the Clergymen of Ireland wr s too low. It was then said that the stipends of the Clergy should not be reduced, but, according to the new division of parishes, so many Ministers would not be required. To each Protestant parish there was to be a place of worship with one Minister, and he wished -to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would admit 250/. a.year not to 1), - , a surperfluous provision? • Mr. RlCE.—No.—(Cheers from the Ministry.) Lord STANLEY— No I lie had heard a great deal from the other side of the House about the hardships endured by the working Curatlys, and the pampered bloated condition of the superior Clergy, and yet the" were told that an income of 2501. would be considered immoderate. He knew u some it was to the House to enter into tb^ ' • ..,, w weari- ~;'tails of particular _ cases. He had, however. .P - ' show tlig .u l i„„„t , ..:eted a few, and as they would • r ,„.. • .....1e state of the revenues of the Protestant ...trcli ho would, with the permission of the House, mention one other. In the .living he was about to mention the gross amount of the tithes was 1,300/. ; but by the reductions al= ready made, .or proposed to be made, it would amount to 7001. on'y. The living was that of Gra.lara, in the province of Ar. mash. 'I he number of inhabitants were, In Granird 635 Co!umkil .. 33'i.. Drumlomon - - ' Killeshindra, alias S.::rabby Bal!yma - lugh *4,...,692 Making a total of Now, in this union there were five parishes ; each parish had a church and a separate' Curate ; so that out of 700/. a year five parishes were to bs served, and six Clergymen and their families supported.—( Load cheers.) The Noble Lord then mentioned other similar instances, and, among them, one of a benefice in the diocese of Meath, where the Protestant po. pulation amounted to 1,289, and the space occupied by the benefice was twenty-two miles long (Irish), and averaging from five to seven in breadth. The six Clergymen were five Curates, besides the Incumbent, to be supported on is - gross income -of 3851, la another instatice, which the Noble Lord quoted, in the county- of Galway, there wen,. 582 Protestants, and the income was 205/., and. the ex. treme points of the benefice were fifty miles apart, and it was in the wildest part of this the' wildest district of Ire land that the principal parish was situated. If the Govern ment were really anxious to supply' the wants of the Clergy— not in pampered luxury, but decent comfor;:, which was the indefeasible right of eve. 's member of the Established Church —augmentation instt - . , :;t: Ippropriation might have entered their minds fur the re 7 s r omuch poverty, - and par ticularly itt a Bill professing to rcgt.tite eeclesiatical reve nues.—( Cheers.) isserlA loev stater too=t extraordivary misconception of the N, lars Lord ( Lord INK peril). In Kil carry there were t,o2s Hiabisants . , with s.'n income attached to the benefice of 215/., which. would he reduced according to the proposed alteration to ',2v!. There ‘.ve - re two adjoining parishes with an incotae which would be reduced to 260/. These parishs; fornieit tt u!!ion of six miles is len A th and ono toile in !ffeadtli, and becao it was c'all - td a union, without reference to the &wait amount of income, it was to be reduced, lie wpuict ask whether this was not a one-sided mode of proceeding, and nhetbc-r it son 1n! not be a better mode to vote at once a mock surplus ?,—(Lone( Cheers.) He had deviated, however, from the case of Kilcarry. The No ble Lord had stated that hi that place there was only a pre. beudary attacheq, 0 1 0 d u ty consisted in reading prayers •oneo or twice a-yeair. Now, how was - She fact ? The parish contailKa aOO Protestants, and had an incumbent and curate, f :alt resident.—( Loud cheering, in Which Lord Morpeth vo- • eiferously joined.) The Noble Isse‘d cheered ; but he thought it a most extraordinary Cheer in ' answer to a tri umphant counterstatement. Monkstown, and Dr°. mond, were now united parishes, with an income of 150/. —( Hear, hear.) income was derivable from Monks town, but tho duty was performed at Collin, but because thotoondf, s contiguous it is proposed to separate it trorn,the ul"."ott, and this, it is gravely stated, is done for the pufpese of better administering the ecclesiastical revenues. It rettlyr he did consider, passed the powers of any human being to re sist laughter at so preposterous a proceeding.-_( Cheers,.) Al lusion had been made to the unfortunate Church Temporali ties Bill. If any Hon. Gentleman was under the delusion that, in supporting that Bill, he supported a principle similar to that now introduced,, he would soon set hint right. The " Church Temporalities Bill made it competent for certain Ec clesiastical Commissioners to suspend, incumbents from their benefices on Certain conditions. But a Curate was to he pro vided, and after the payment of his stipend, the residue was to go to the building of a glebe house. If there were Iv, Protest ants at all in the parish, the funds were to be appropriated for more effectually maintaining the Church in other quarters. If such," said the Noble Lord, " is the principle of the Bill now - before the House, I at once withdraw my opposition." It the superfluity when discovered was so to be appropriated, he would give up at once any further attempt to impede the measure. But the fact was that the sole dis cretion was left in the present instance to any person—to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—or to any one rather than to art Ecclesiastical Commissioner, and was in all respects as distinct frsim the Church Temporalities Bill as light from darkness.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord then proceeded to point out some more of the absurdities which he considered would arise from the system of • dividing the parishes. There were two livings which, of all others, were the worst paid; one received only 1551. per annum ; but they both ap peared to bear very ominous namesi for one of them was called Castle Ennis, and the other Chapel Russell,__ Msaughter.) To be serious, these livings did not enter Into the proposals of his Noble Friend. \acre there was much duty and little pay his Noble Friend proposed to make no addition ; but where there was little duty and much pay, there appropriation was to take place. He complained of the cou fusion which his Noble Friend had made between benefiees and parishes. English Gentlemen who listened to the sub ject were in the habit of saying "nothing could be more mon strous than that there should be so many parishes with so few Protestants in them," and they asked, " Could any man object to taking away such livings ?" But these parishes were often united into benefices, and although the parishes singly had few Protestants,_ yet, united into b ene fi ces , th e Protestants were many ; and yet these benefices were tra be dealt with' SS single parishes, and because there were not fifty Protestants -qtr.-each they were to be annihilated. Ho hoped that Hon. Members would not be misled by terms, for the benefiCes were, in fact, one undivided parish. The church was not the church of the parish but of the benefice ; the Clergyman was not of the parish but of the benefice; and in the days when the vestry cesa was collected it was as sessed-• en: the-benefsets;: -, and the churchwardens were not elected for the parish but for the benefice ; and, he asked, upon what ground could his Noble Friend, when he found the income of a benefice l large, be ready to reduce it ? and when he came to consider the amount of duty to be per formed he stated not the duty of the benefice, but the duty of each parish ?—(Cheers.) Could any man conceive that his Noble Friend would have drawn such distinctions between parishes of 400 Protestant inhabitants merely because one was-divided and the other not ? The report contained the number of benefices which possessed less than ten, less than forty, and less than a hundred Protestants, and so on. The Commissioners told the House that the Ecclesiastical parishes were not coterminal with the civil parishes, and yet his Noble Friend confounded them, and such was the way by •whelt be got at his surplus. His Noble Friend had lo o ked a t t h e re- terns, and foiind that if he took the number of ber.eficcs there would be no chance of his obtaining a surplus. He said that there were 860 parishes with under t)t) Protestant inhabit ants : but, supposing his Noble Friend had taken the bene fices, he would have found thei there were only forty-one in all Irelind that did not contain a Protestant inhabitant.— ( Hear, hear.) And•what was the total income of these forty one benefices ? Why, the total income amounted to only 2,2351. per annum. After all that had been said of the Church of Ireland, of the neglect of duties on the part of the Clergy, and of sinecure Clergymen, it appeared that only 2,235/. per annum was paid to Protestant Ministers who with in their benefices had no Protestant communicants. Surely his Noble Friend could find ample means of applying this 2,2351, to the benefit of districts in which no provision was made for the spiritual wants of the Protestant population. It might be applied in augmenting small incomes, and in dimi nishing enormous unions in other parts of the country.— There were 1,545 places of Protestant worship, 1,383 bene ficed Clergymen, and 752 Curates to be maintained, the incomes of which .beneficed Clergymen amounted, upon an average, to only 2201. a year, whilst the average con gregation of each was • 616 persons.—( Hear, hear, hear.) 'ln the case of the Church of Scotland it had.been deemed by the old fathers of the Church that no Minis ter should have the care of a larger number of souls than 1,000. Ile did not mean to say that one, two, or three thou sand might not be provided for by one minister, but on the other band. in Ireland, where the districts were so extensive, it was impossible for one man to take charge of so many ; and yet the Noble Lord's plan went •to add . tracts of country to what was already too large. But the Noble Lord was deter mined to hate a surplus, and he therefore took only one side of the question, deducting where there was a superfluity, and never adding where there was a deficiency. The Noble Lord had said that he cared not whether the service of the Church was adequately performed, or whether a parish had few Church men or no Churchmen, but the revenues of the national Church should be applied to the general purposes of the population dissenting from the Church. This was a question of Roman Catholic use or of Protestant use, and not a quest-ion of sur plus.—( Cheers). His Noble Friend had admitted the necessity of a national Establishment, he admitted the importance of religion, and acknowledged that religion could not be main tained without human means, and that the best of all means to maintain religion was an-Establishment, and if the national Establishment were only for the benefit of a small portion of the population, then he had a right to apply its revenues to the Roman Catholic population. because the object of a na tional Establishment was to teach the great truths of Christi anity in which the people were agreed. But the purposes of a Pro testant - Establishment were no such thing. Its object was to see that the service of the national religion should be duly adminis tered, without any mixture of errors with what it held to be the truth. He dissented from the doctrines of his Noble Friend, and he would tell him—lie would tell that House—he would tell the people of England—that his Noble Friend's argument led irresistibly to the appropriation of Protestant revenues to Roman Catholic purposes.—(Cheers.) The feelings of the country never would allow the Noble Loid to carry such a Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He would rather see the Protestant revenues appropriated to Catholic pnrposes than the half-and half mode of proceeding which was the object 'of the pre sent Bill. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had told Mi nisters that on their own principle they Never could succeed. Ministers had said that they would 'hot appropriate the sur plus revenues of one part of . Kland to the deficiencies of any other parts. He would wish . to see this done.—( Hear, hear.) • But if his ri oble Friend protested against this doctrine, he asked him what security was there in the present Bill for the local application of the funds raised by the confiscation of Church revenues ? The funds were not to be applied locally within the parish, but they were to be applied at the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant for the purpose of religioes education, without any distinction of •sects, The Bill contained no tecurity whatever for the application of the funds, and it would be absurd if it did. Out of this dilemma the House could not get. if the surplus were to lv applied without the parish, it was a perfect matter of liilfference to the parish ioners whether it was applietenty miles or a hundred miles off. He would ask hr - ",soble Friend whether in his conscience he b elieved- 11 7.: - ;ttis Bill really stood upon any fixed principle, 411 " - , •feether . it could be a final or peaceable settlement cf 1 Ireland. His Noble Friend himself had acknowledged the reverse, for ha had designated the measure not as a fina l set tlement, but as a temporary comprordise. • - We here understood Lord John Russell to say "'No." Lord STANLEY then continued. Did his Noble Friend believe it permanent? Ile knew that ha did not. use t hire ho take the votes of the gentlemen on his a i l /I v: e t l meet him (Lord rested upon this as a final measure, ti 1 it , ;y:a F\ r,E' ~.r.- ,~, ~,~. `' r ;a ed art Ig ert ich Ely, Ar- .s. ) be :le- ;cd 1- Ise. he va3 ■ . ~ e ' ;ri