The Sun. — London, England, 1848-06-30 00:00:00

3' ears ago there was slave-grown sugar, and that it is within the last year that it has made its appearance, and that the alteration of the law has affected Cuba much more than Brazil; for there was not for the previous 18 months a single slave brought into that island. He did not at all agree with the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) when he stated that there was an apprehension of reaction by this opposition to the Government, for he thought that it was the Government who, by their al teration of free-trade principles, were the party who would create a reaction, if any such thing should arise. and he did not therefore think that the Hon. Gentlemen who brought on this opposition were to blame, but the Government who introduced the alteration. He con sidered that there was a great difference of opinion between the Right Hon. Gentlemeu of the Government (Mr. Hawes and Mr. Labouchere). The first considers that the wages of labourers is not sufficiently high in those colonies, while the other is of a diametrically opposite opinion, because he (Mr. Labouchere) says that we should rely on an increase of consumption. He considered that the cause of ruin to the colonies was the taking off the restrictions, and allowing for the use of breweries an influx into the market of slave-grown sugar. He was astonished that, when the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) referred to the proceedings of the Com mittee, he did not say something of himself and of another Hon. Gentleman on that Committee; and also, wby he did not explain the reason that Government de parted from the resolution laid down by that Committee, in which they stated that the West Indies were in a most pitiful state of distress, and recommended imme diate relief. He should add, that the resolutions of the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) went even be yond those of the Committee. lie (Mr. Labouchere) said that it was essentially necessary for Parliament to afford the colonies relief, which perfectly agreed with the resolution of the House. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he moved that reso lution as the basis of the report. Mr. GOULBURN said that the object of that resolu tion was, that immediate relief be given, particularly to those colonies which were in such direful distress. Another Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hawes) said, that nothing was more unjust than to give this relief indis criminately to all the colonies; but that those colonies which were in distress should be attended to. The ob ject of the resolution was to afford relief for such a length of time, not for two, three, or four years, but until our colonies might be able to compete with foreign colonies.—(Hear.) Between the conflicting opinions of the Government, one being for the improvement of the colonies, while another relied on the wicked doctrines of political economy, that never looks properly to casual and unforeseen circumstances, the condition of the colonies was totally lost sight of, and thus was ruin brought on them. Ho should again refer to a very great cause of the injury sustained by the West Indies as being occasioned by that Act of 1846. It allowed the importation of slave-grown sugar, and consequently when our colonists came to the market with their ar ticles they found it fallen in consequence of such an un fair competition. Now when such distress prevailed, its relief would ask what was the plan of Government for relief ?,,They promise a loan of 500,0001. on the security of the colonies. He thought that there was something ludicrous in such a proposition, when the landed pro perty of the colonies was so low, and when there was scarcely any demand for the articles of produce, and also when the colonies were not able to pay their ex penses. He considered that such an offer amounted to nothing, however the country may think about it. He thought that it was the duty of Government to compen sate those colonies for the losses and ruin they had sus tained by the Act of 1846, and did not believe that the additional shilling of differential duty, on which he could not rely till carried, would be anything commensurate with all the sufferings that the proprietors of these colo vies have hitherto undergone. Sir ROBERT PEEL then rose and said—Mr. Speaker, I should most imperfectly express my real feelings if, in the course of the observations which I am about to make, were I to come to a conclusion, or even utter a word which might appear to others that I was indifferent to the welfare or importance of our trans marine possessions. With the depressed state of the colonies, with the difficulties and embarrassments of the landed proprietors, I fully and deeply sympathise.— _ . (Cheers.) Sir, I should be justly sorry to incur the reproach which has been directed by my Right Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford against some, that they were disposed to prefer mere pecuniary material interests to the higher considerations of public policy which arc interwoven with this great question.—(Cheers.) Sir, it would be utterly incon sistent with the spirit with :which a great empire has been founded—(Hear, hear)—it would be utterly incon sistent with the spirit by which a great empire has been maintained—were we now, in a time of the depression and distress of the colonies, to enter into cold calculations, whether it was for the pecuniary interest of this country to maintain our connexion with them. Sir, I repudiate entirely such views and such considerations. Nor could I entertain them when I remember that these colonies have stood by us in times of national danger and dis aster—(Hear, hear) —when I remember that they stood by us during the great conflict which involved Europe for the last century ; when I recollect that they stood by us during the struggle which ended in the year 1708 by the declaration and concession of independence to many of the provinces of this empire. In that time of difficulty these colonies stood faithful.—(Hear, hear.) Nor can I forget that during the greater conflict which ended in the downfall of Napoleon, and the establish ment of the peace of 1814, these colonies bore the brunt upon many occasions of the struggle, and were the means of averting the tempest of war from the shores of this nation. Sir, I cannot forget that they shared in our failures and our defeats—in our hopes and our despondings—no, I will not do them the injustice to say that they desponded—they were animated with the true feeling of an Englishman, and only saw in failure and defeat but new motives for re newed exertion.—(Loud cheers.) When a recollect all this, I feel that those higher considerations ought to prevail over mere pecuniary and material interests.—(Hear, hear.) I think, independent of all this, there are great social considerations which would require us to extend a fostering hand to our West Indian possessions. And here I must be permitted to say that I utterly reject the doctrine that because 95 per cent. of the population are prosperous, that we therefore can dis regard the welfare of the other five.—(Cheers.) Why, sir, in my opinion the smaller the white population is, the more incumbent is it upon us to cherish them. — (Loud cheers.) I cannot conceive a greater misfortune than the loss of the white population. No matter what may be the prosperity of the negro population, I can not conceive a greater misfortune than their disappear ance, whether you regard it as having reference to the progress of religion, humanity, or civilization. I believe the white population to be a barrier to the spread of bar barism.—(Cheers.) If they should, from any reason, disappear from the colonies, the cause of civilization, humanity, and religion will materially suffer.—(Hear, hear.) It is with these feelings, then, that I approach the discussion of this great question. Sir, their distress is admitted upon all hands, and upon all sides has a sin- cere desire been evinced to provido for it. I shall not op- pose to that remedy any of the ordinary objections which upon other occasions, I might have been disposed to offer, I have always felt that the case of these colonies was peculiar—(Hear, hear)—and that they were ex empted from the regulation of the ordinary principles which should direct your legislation, if it really could be proved that their evils arose from your legislation.—. (Hear, hear.) Not a word shall I say about the con sumer of this country, or the produce of that, because I believe that the interests of the consumer are identified with the interests of the colonists•, that is, if you intend to cherish and maintain them, which I trust you will do. —(Cheers.) In this condition of admitted distress, pro posals are made by her Majesty's Government for the application of remedies to that distress. Those proposals are met by a proceeding justifiable under certain circum stances, but which at the least are of a novel character. — (Hear, hear.) It is proposed by the Honourable Ba ronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pakington), that we should assent to a proposition to refuse a consideration to the plan of her Majesty's Govern ment, to send it back as utterly inefficient—(Hear) —in fact, to say to them, "Take back your plan, it is so worthless that it does not deserve considera tion. We beg you either to come back with a better one, or assent to that which we shall propose." Well, that is a very important statement.—(Hear, hear.) You are not satisfied with remaining as you are. You are not content to be passive.—(Hear, hear.) You all admit that some decisive step must be taken, and that the present law must be altered, but you refuse to enter into any consideration of a plan proposed by the Go vernment.—(Hear, hear.) Recollect the state of the West Indian colonies, recollect that they are in a state of great distress, that they are impatient for a remedy, and that they are anxiously looking to you. The reso lotions of my lion. Friend admit that this distress can be remedied by legislation, if they did not, they would have been of no effect whatsoever. But they do not say that these calamities are beyond the reach of legislation, and that those who suffer must patiently submit.—(Hear, hear.) The amendment of the Hon. Baronet says, the plan proposed is utterly unworthy and inefficient.—(Bear, hear.) Vote for this amend ment and there may be great triumph. The result will be wafted on wings swifter than those of the wind.—(Hear, hear.) But the next returning gale will bear back the question—Why have you re fused this plan? What are the other measures which you are prepared to replace itiwith? To that question y©u must be prepared to give an answer. Now the Noble Lord (turning to Lord G. Bentinck) can give an answer, Sir. I have read the report of that Committee over which he so ably presided, although I was occupied by attendance on several other Committees, but I read that report on apcount of the vast importance of the sub• ject ; and I must state that a new light has been thrown upon the state of the West Indian colonies which would not have been thrown were it not for the assiduity, zeal, intelligence, and knowledge of the Noble (Cheers.) (Lord G. Bentinck acknowledged the com pliment in a marked manner.) The Noble Lord is ready to propose an amendment. I read the resole.- tions and the draft report which he proposed, and I can fully understand the expectations which he raised by them in the minds of the colonies. But Unless you are prepared to do something of this kind, the result of all your proceedings will be only to aggravate their discontent.—(Hear, hear.) I must, there fore, be premitted shortly to review the present position of the West Indian colonies. What is it you can offer to the West Indians by way of relief? Can you go back to the measure of 1845? Can you establish the distinc tion between sugar the produce of slave and sugar the Produce of free labour? Sir, I regret that a further ex periment of the Bill of 1845 was not permitted.—(Hear, hear.) I am not satisfied with the arguments which have been adduced, that the opening of the markets of Great Britain and Ireland was of no advantage to the producer of slave sugar. I am not satisfied that the free-labour sugar which I took from the Continent by the Bill of 1845, to supply these countries, that that vacuum was supplied by slave-grown sugar.— (Hear, hear.) I find evidence to the fact, whatever may be the theoretical opinions of some, that the measure of 1846, which opened these markets, has given encouragement to slave producers in Cuba and Brazil—(Hear, hear)—and that they did consider it a practioal boon, which was of greater advantage than the indirect bounty which they received from the fillina . of the vacuum which arose in the continental supply. If I had to direct the counsels of her Majesty, I would have advised a longer continuance of the measure of 1845.—(Hear, hear.) I assented to the measure of the Noble Lord, proposed in 1846, on the ground of public policy, because public faith was pledged to the mainte nance of the exclusion of the produce of Cuba; I must therefore take upon myself whatever blame may attach, for I do not shrink from the vote which I then gave, and I thought that the removal of duties from other articles would have made the consumer more willing to exclude slave-labour sugar. Besides, her Majesty's Government might have changed, and you could not consistently have passed any other than an annual sugar Bill. The colonists would have dreaded the result of such a proceeding. The Noble Lord offered a permanent sugar Bill, and I believed that it would be better to avoid au annual conflict, which would have been detrimental to the interests of the colonists. Although you might have defeated the Bill of 1846, it would have prevented the application of capital to your colonies. These considerations, added to my unwillingness to dis turb the Government, induced me to support the Bill of the Noble Lord. But can you now revoke that settle ment ? The Hon. Member for Oxford thinks you can. But he is one of a very few who think so.—(Hear.) The Crown has admitted the sugar of Cuba, Venezuela, and the United States. I have endeavoured to give an impartial consideration to every measure which has been proposed. I will take one of them—the reduction of colonial expenditure.' After having read the evidence upon this subject, it has left an impression upon my mind that colonial expenditure can admit of very great reduction.—(Hear and cheers.) Those establishments, founded on considerations of imperial policy, which are part of our imperial institutions—connected as they are with our system, it is impossible that there should not be in our dependencies some servile imitations of them ; and when I see the enormous expenditure of the Man , ritius, of Jamaica, and other colonies, I am prepared to hold out to the colonies the prospect of relief, and that there shall be a most determined attempt to reduce the expenditure within the narrowest limits.— (Loud cheers.) Now there is no necessity in a time of their distress, to keep up this unnecessary ex penditure.—(Cheers.) I wish to see the colonies main tained. I wish to recognise them as subjects of the Queen, entitled to every consideration to which the in habitants of Lancaster are entitled.—(Loud cheers.) I also admit that it is of the greatest importance, for the purposes of defence and national policy, that you should place in the administration of colonial affairs thb very best men. I think that it would be a miserable economy, for;the sake of some 2,0001. a year, to deprive this empire of the abilities of such men as Lord Dalhousie, Lord Harris, and Lord Elgin. I think if you deprived the co lonies of the presence of men of such ability by a shabby economy, it would be very injurious. But I greatly doubt with respect to the salary of the governor whether it would not be prudent that this country should take the payment upon itself.—(Hear, hear.) I think that the governor should be independent of the colonies. I think that he should be enabled to favour the colonies, and that he should be able to offend them, did the discharge of his duty require it, without having his worldly means impaired. But with respect to other salaries, such as a secretary's at 4,0001. —(Hear, hear)—l would make very great reductions in such.—(Hear, hear.) I do not blame the Govern ment for not having done something of this kind ; I am ready to share the blame in not having given the ques tion an earlier attention. But Ido say that if you had these salaries reduced, it would be very likely to please the colonist by placing these positions within his own reach.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not mean that you should exclude ad persons who have no local interest to influ ence them, but some of the salaries attached to the offices appear to admit of reduction. I am only speak ing of the principles generally, and in doing so I must say that every reduction which can be made consis tently with the defence and the special local interests of the colonies themselves, ought to be made, and whatever relief you can afford them from retrenchment, is relief to which the colonies are entitled .—(Hear.) That principle, Sir, I apprehend her Majesty's Government admit. I do not understand that that source of relief was excluded from their plan. Well, then, as to police laws for the prevention of vagrancy and squatting, we are also agreed. Whatever you can do consistently with justice and the real freedom of the negro, that we are all agreed ought to be done. Of course, the question of how it is to be done is one, without local knowledge, of difficult solution. But we shall, lam sure, concur cordially with the colonies in administering what relief can, under that head, be granted to them.—(Hear, hear.) I now, then, come to the grievances alleged by the colonists and their demands for relief. There was a petition presented from the district of Hanover in Jamaica so recently as December, 1847, and in that petition I find that the in habitants of Jamaica—merchants, planters, and others— demand " the removal of the protection which our fel low-subjects in Great Britain enjoy," and then the peti tion goes on to explain the nature of that protection, stating that the English distillers, in addition to other advantages, " enjoyed a protection against our rum of 93. per gallon." Now I understand that amongst the measures of her Majesty's Government is contemplated the reduction of that differential duty from 9d. to 4d. per gallon. I cannot hold out to the colonists any hope of a greater reduction, and 1 apprehend that Govern ment will have serious difficulties in carrying what is cc tually proposed.—(Hear.) Well, the next grievance com plained of is this. The memorialists state " that the British shipowner is protected by the navigation-laws, and compels your petitioners to pay a freight of nearly double the amount which they would pay if they were permitted to ship in other vessels. A large amount of American shipping leaves Jamaica in ballast, and but for the protection of the British shipowners your petitioners would be able to obtain their staves, provisions, and other American commodities at cheaper freights, as well as to enjoy similar advantages in transmitting their sugar to this country." Well, Sir, I think that that is a very reasonable complaint, but tt is disheartening, when we are compelled to admit the complaint to be just, and when a remedy is proposed to be applied, to be told that the removal of the navigation-laws would be of no be nefit to us—that the produce of Cuba and the Brazils would derive greater advantage from the change than we.—(Hear, hear.) That is a considera tion which discourages me from holding out to the West Indies too sanguine prospects of relief—because when I did, so lately as December, 1847, the inhabitants of Jamaica distinctly declare that the remedy propased will be of no avail; for though the statement may be brief, the argument is cogent, and I, for one, am willing to afford a remedy. I say, Sir, looking at all this, it is discouraging to he told, that the remedy which amid great opposition you propose to apply, will be of no avail,—(Hear, hear.) Sir, it is difficult to take any ge • neral view of the position of the West India colonies, and the remedies to be applied to them, because one great element in the consideration is wanting. It is difficult to give an opinion as to what course ought to be adopted with respect to the squadron on the coast of Africa. A Committee is sitting upon that subject—important evi dence is being taken, and I could wish that we knew the result of that evidence, the opinion of the Committee, and the intentions of the Government. A large expense is borne by this country for that squadron. Now sup posing it to be found ineffectual, you still would be:com pelled to maintain a certain force, in consequence of ar rangements with America and France. But, at the same time, if you can convince America and France that you sought relief from that burthen, because the united squa dron was of little avail, I cannot doubt but that they in turn would be influenced by similar motives and would consider some more effectual means of gaining the end in view. I myself give no opinion on'the'matter; I am, indeed, inclined to doubt whether - the sudden withdrawal of the squadron would not increase the evils of the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) But if any material saving could be effected by such a withdrawal, I greatly doubt whether this country would not willingly consent to forego the direct pecuniary advantage, and apply the money saved, or a great deal of it, to the furtherance of other means for suppressing the slave trade.—(Hear, hear.) Any view of the matter, however, must as yet be imperfect and premature. Now, Sir, there are only two other suggestions of very considerable importance. The one is, that there shall be a great increase of immi gration, so as to increase the supply of labour ; the other is, that direct assistance shall be given by means of protective duties. Now, as to immigration, the Go vernment have, J think, admitted the principle that this country shall, by way of loan, immediately pro vide the means of increasing the supply of labour. As I understood it, 500,0004 is to be ad vanced for this purpose. Now, I am bound to say that I do not attach the importance which some Hon. Gen tlemen do to an increased supply of labour.—(Hear, hear.) What are the facts? The population of the West Indies is in all about a million. I quote the evi dence of the llon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol (Mr. Miles). Well, he says that be has no great con fidence in the efficacy of immigration. There are a million of inhabitants, and the quantity of sugar pro duced is only about 140,000 hogsheads —a conclusive proof of their being labour enough. Well, but then the question seems to be, how are you to get access to it? It is said, " threaten the negros with the importation of fresh labour. That will operate as a moral check on idleness. When they know that you have access to labour, they will behave themselves." But it requires the utmost tact to apply this consideration.—(Bear.) To pour in upon the colonies tens of thousands of coolies or negroes from the coast of Africa would be a very e ven supposing it to be a very e ff ec t ua l, mo d e clumsy, ompsyejation. But what might be the result? Why this—that you would heve added to the number of labourers, without providing employment for them— (Hear, hear) —that you would have added to the number of strangers unaccustomed to the colony, brought from many thousand miles away; and even should the plan prove successful, and compel the negroes to work, that you would notwithstanding, and by your own acts, still have a superabundant supply of labour on your hands.—(Hear, hear.) No; if' you are to have im migration, I greatly doubt whether it ought not to be left to the speculation of individuals—(Hear, hear)—the State taking every precaution against abuse—determin ing from what part of the African coast Government negroes should be taken—that is to say, what parts are inhabited by free negroes capable of forming a judgment on the subject, and of understanding the nature of a con tract.—(Hear, hear.) Government ought, I think, in addition, to take on themselves the responsibility of en tering into communication with the sovereign and zative chiefs, explaining the object of the immigration, and , offering to become responsible for the good treatment o: the negroes on their arrival in the West Indies. But for the Government to undertake more than this will be for it to undertake schemes which I fear will end in disap pointment. As I said, I should be very much disposed to facilitate the enterprise of individuals whose estates wanted labour, the Government taking every precaution against abuse. But, do what you will, do not subject this country to the imputation of—under any pretence— originating and encouraging a new slave trade.—(Bear, hear.) I trust, however, that her Majesty's advisers will not insist upon applying the 500,000/. to the pur poses of immigration. I believe that there are some other modes by which temporary relief can be given to the West Indies more effectually than by the plan pro posed. I have read the evidence as to the condition of coolies upon their arrival in the West Indies, and that evidence is conclusive as to the sufferings which they must have endured upon the passage. But if Govern ment, on the other hand, be willing to admit the prin ciple of temporary pecuniary relief—and I heard the ad mission with great satisfaction—then I hope that they will consider the most effectual mode of applying that relief. Now, in some of the colonies there are great obstacles in the way of extending drainage and irri gation; but in others the process would be easy, and the benefits to be derived from it, especially in the way of preventing the conse quences of drought —very great. Now, in the most recently-taken evidence, I find that of a British Creole —a great proprietor in Jamaica, I mean Lord Howard de Walden; I have also the evidence of the Hon. Gen tleman who complained of the slumbers of the Noble Lord the Premier—by the way I beg for a moment to interrupt the slumbers of the lion. Gentleman himaelf, but —" hanc veuiam petimusque, damusque vicissim."— (Much laughter, in the midst of which Mr. Bernal who was thus apostrophised, and who had been apparently asleep on a Ministerial bench, awakened up and looked about him, while Sir R. Peel resumed.) Lord Howard de Walden says:—" There is a district between Kings town and Spanish Town, where a great deal of the finest land could bo brought into cultivation, by making a cut from Springhead to the river Coo. The estimated ex pense would be 4,oool.—three estates would be benefited while the expense of the drain weuld be repaid in a, year." Now why have not the planters of Jamaica been reclaiming this magnificent district, and making a drain themselves? The answer would of course be, " We are so much impoverished that we cannot make it; we rely on the British Government." But then we say again, " Why did you not make it in the time of your prosperity?" It was because you relied on pro tection.—(Cheers.) Because you relied on a factitious stimulus, on the factitious aid of protection, you have not made this improvement, which you would have made if you had been subject to the wholesome influ ence of competition. Here is a drain which, being made, would benefit three estates. The estimated expense is 4,000/., and the work will pay at least fifty per cent. on the outlay. In a year or two you will be paid. Why, we are draining in England if the operation pays us only four or five per cent.; but in your case you have the expense repaid in a year or two.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Hon. Member for Rochester told us of estates in Porto Rico. He told us of an estate to which irrigation had been applied, and what was the result? The production of the estate was at first under 100 hogsheads. Well, the pro prietor wants to compete with us; he tries irrigation, and he raises his produce the first year 100 to 200 hogsheads, the next year to 300, the next to 500, and in 1847 he has his estate producing 900 hogsheads.—(Cheers.) This is what can be done by irrigation—by pooviding against drought. Well, if by such simple means such great profits can be derived—if by attending to irrigation such great results can be attained, why should not I trust that when the West Indies recover from their pre , sent depression, the natural result of being forced to make a great exertion will produce a corresponding ad vantage?—(Hear, hear.) But we have evidence of Lord Howard do Walden, which is still more important and striking. He says—" A great deal might be done by draining and irrigation;" and then he goes on to state that a " tramway of eight miles, costing 150,0001., would benefit sixteen estates, and that there is no question but that the proprietors of those estates would pay the ex pense, but that there are difficulties in the state of the law." Here, however, is the case of a tramway, giving increased facilities for communication, costing only 150,000/. Well, let Government, being willing to aid the West Indian body, apply some portion of the 500,000/., not to increase the supply of labourers, who may become a mere population of surplus paupers; but let them take an extended view of the improvements which might be made, and endeavour to benefit the West India body by aiding in their accomplishment. Well, Lord Howard de Walden, as I have said, gives de cisive evidence as to the advantages of draining in many parts of Jamaica. He does not approve of small drains, which may be stopped up by the vegetation and the roots of plants; but large drains, running through dis tricts, which, he says, may be formed with great advan tage. Now, here is shown the necessity of competition. It is only under the influence of competition that you can hope that these improvements—these drains and modes of irrigation—will be had recourse to. Let that competition be applied. There will then be improve ment, there will then be a demand for surplus labour, the cutting of drains and the excavation of reservoirs, salubrious labour, very different from cane planting; and all this being effected, as I believe it can be effected, under the guidance, and by the advice of a paternal Go vernment, the foundations may be laid for great local prosperity. And now I come to the most important con sideration of all—Will I consent to give 10s. protective duty for six years? If I consent to that proposition, I vote for the amendment.—(Hear, hear) Yes, the reason why I differ from my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn, we believe,) is this, that I cannot vote for the last amended resolution of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Droitwich without encouraging belief on the part of the West India body that I am prepared to give them 10s. protective duty.—(Hear, and " Oh.") Yes, I think the very minimum amount you could offer, after voting for this resolution, is 10s. for six years.—(Hear.) Well, Sir, after a full consideration of the case, that is a proposition to which I am not prepared to accede—(Hear, hear) — and I will not accede to it, not only on account of the interest of the consumers here, but from a sincere and conscientious belief that it would not be for th e b ene fit o he West India body themselves.—( Hear.) Now why do I say . that my Hon. Friend's last resol u ti on i m pli es a protective duty of I Os. for six years ? He is not a simple Member of Parliament. He was on the Committee— he was acting with others, and he voted for the 10s. duty. Well, he has proposed three resolutions. The first was, that no remedy could be effectual which did not give 10s. protective duty. The next was, that any remedy proposed which was not i n con f orm i ty with the recommendation of the Commit tee wou ld b e ineffectual—that recommendation being 103. for six years. And then, ultimately, the resol u ti on was changed intoits present form. But I put it to the West India body whether they would not say, " Why, the wording of the resolution was changed for mere party considera tions, with a view to a division; but we consider that it still means 10s. for six years, and if we succeed in de feating the Government plan, that is the amount of protective duty which we shall expect from you."— (Hear, hear.) Now, I cannot consent to that amount of protective duty, and for these reasons—the West India body is distressed by want of labour. But I am there fore called on to give protection in fiivour of colsnial produce—not the produce of the West Indies alone, but 10s. of protective duty on that of the East Indies and the Mauritius, in both of which British possessions there is no want of labour. They are, in fact, to have the same advantage as the West Indies, without having the same grounds of complaint.—(Eicar, hear.) Then, what is the necessary consequence ? You admit, in these very resolutions, that a very considerable time must elapse before you have any increase in the supply of labour in the West Indies, but the stimulus of protection to the East Indies will be immediate, while the amount of available la bour there is enormous. Why, you have the valley of the Ganges, with, it is said, 500,000 square miles, and labour at the rate of 2d. per day.—(oh, oh.) lam speaking from the evidence—it is not my statement. There is a large track, and there is no deficiency of labour there. There is certainly some impediment on account of the rent of land, but that can be removed ; but yet the East Indies and the Mauritius are to re ceive au encouragement to compete with the West Indies, though not labouring under the same disadvan tages, which competition will be as injurious to the West Indies, in a pecuniary point of view, as foreign competition.—(Hear.) It is admitted by this resolution, that perhaps two years shall pass over before they can in the West Indies procure that supply of labour, but in this interval they are to be incited to competition with other portions of the British colonies which labour under no such want as they endure.—(Hear, hear.) This is to expire at the end of six years, and let us con sider, if we grant this temporary protection, what object it will ensure.—(Hear, hear.) The West Indians will not enjoy it for more than three or four years, for they will not have the supply of labour to enjoy it for a longer period. And what will the Cubans say? . Now, I suppose that you are in earnest in this proposition, and that when you propose " six years," the proposition is not made with the lurking intention of continuing it afterwards.—(Hear, hear.) It is a proposition for pro tection for six years—to come to an abrupt termination at the end of that period—and after six years there is to be unqualified competition with the produce of the whole world, slave labour and free.—(Bear, hear.) Will the Cubans, do you think, relax?—(Hear, hear.) Will they not say that they have a guarantee from the British Parliament that at the end of six years they will have unlimited access to the British market.—(Hear, hear.) How would slavery be discouraged by a proposition of that kind ? You tell them, wait for six years, and you will recover your position ; but what will the West Indian body be doing in the meantime ? I find an ex planation of it in the observation of my Hon. Friend (Mr. Barkly), and I must say that I was not surprised at the clearness with which he spoke on the subject.— (Hear) He spoke with a facility throughout which was the result of great experience and knowledge. He is a witness in favour of a protection of 10s., and what does he say in answer to the questions put to him ? He says, " At the present moment in those colonies we are en gaged in a struggle to reduce the wages, which is the only means of putting the cost of production of sugar on a sound and satisfactory basis.. I think the effect of a differential duty to that extent for so long a period, would be at once to decide the struggle in favour of the negro."—(Hear,' hear.) Well, the last man I think you should have any sympathy for is the negro demand ing extravagant wages.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") I have a sympathy for the West Indians, but the conse quence of giving this temporary protection will be to decide that struggle in favour of the negro. You have decisive evidence of the consequences that will result from this proposition. It will decide the struggle in favour of the negro. I think he would get his own way, and get it, probably, to the amount of the increased price of the produce. In fact, increase of wages will be tantamount to the increase in the price of produce, and therefore the benefit will go into the labourers' I pocket.—(Bear, hear.) Then my Hon. Friend says TILE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 30, 1848. the effect of the 10s. protection would be to raise the price of sugar 4s. a hundred weight in the market. And who would gain by it? You would thus terminate the struggle between the West Indian and the negro in favour of the negro. You raise the price to the extent of 41. a cwt., and you get the save-grower perhaps a better price. If the price of sugar be raised 45., end you tax him 35., that must be the result, and at the same time you subject the West Indian to this disadvantage, that the negro with whom he is struggling for a reduc tion of wages shall have the advantage over him. And recollect he will have that advantage, because you are paying an additional 4s. to give relief to the West Indians.—(Hear, hear.) My Honourable Friend says, "There would be an increase of wages tantamount to the increased price of produce, and therefore the benefit would go into the pocket of the labourer, for though it were coupled with unrestricted intercourse with Africa, it would be some time before that came into play; the inducement to extend cultivation would keep up the wages beyond the effect which the importation of fresh Labourers would have." My Honourable Friend further says, " I have not now been in Jamaica for more than eight years, and the accounts given to me of the island represent it to be in a much worse condition, not only than it was then, but than the rest of the West Indies ; almost in a hopeless state ; therefore I do not wish to damage their chance of obtaining additional protection by anything I may say. I believe that it would be of assistance to the present proprietors of Jamaica if they got such a protection as that, but if it had the effect of increasing the production very largely, and bringing a large quantity of produce from India, the Mauritius, and other colonies, it would not permanently benefit even the island of Jamaica; it might benefit the present pro prietors, who might perhaps get out of their properties with a sacrifice." Now, with all the sympathy I have with the present West Indian proprietors, the object at which I aim is not to put some money into the pockets of those proprietors, but to lay the foundation of national prosperity.— (Hear, hear.) If I aim to pay him a sum of money, ten thousand times would it be to put it into his pocket directly, rather than do it in the way in which you propose to do it by this proposition to raise the price of sugar and enable the l a b ourer to put i t i n t o hi s poc k et. —(Har, hear.) It appears to me that there is an objec tion to this proposition for a 10s. duty for six years on various grounds. It will end the struggle of the pro prietor with the labourer, and decide it against him; it will increase the price of sugar and it will offer no dis couragement to slave sugar.—(Hear, hear.) On this further ground, I cannot consent to the proposal to raise the price of sugar 4s. in the British market to give temporary assistance to Jamaica. It is my belief that the way to benefit the West Indian proprietor is to reduce the cost of cultivation; and - enable him per manently to enter into competition with the foreign producer; and it is because I cannot hold out to him the expectation that I can fulfil the hopes to which I would give rise by voting for the proposal of my Hon. Friend, that I must give to that proposal a negative.— (Hear, hear.) I say nothing now of the immediate pro posal of her Majesty's Government. I leave that for further consideration; but this I say, that I have a sin cere desire to enter into the consideration of their plan without reference to party considerations.—(g ea r, hear.) I am prepared to discuss the details of their measure, and to extract from them as much benefit as we can without loss to the revenue of the country, and with the hope of affording relief to the West Indians.—(Hear, hear.) Our object I think ought to be to encourage the means of future competition, for I see many causes con tributing to the depression of the West Indians at the present moment, fir which, I believe, legislation could provide no remedy.—(Hear, hear.) Of this lam con. vinced. that if by means of protection, you give the monopoly of the British market to your colonial pos sessions, you do not advance a single step towards advancing their permanent prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) My Honourable Friend has referred to the Committee who sat in 1832, to inquire into the cause of the distress that prevailed in 1830. And what was the cause of the distress in 1830? It was over-production ; there was a greater supply than the home market could take, and the report of the Committee in 1832 is well worth the most attentive perusal.—(Hear, hear.) You will find that, for some years before 1832, there was a gradual increase in West Indian production. There was a num ber of hundred weights increase, from four millions to five millions ; and that was more than the British market could take off when it came into competition with foreign sugar in the European market ; and that Committee said the only way of affording the means of effectual re lief was, to enable the British producer to undersell the foreign producer in the British market. Well, they got the monopoly of the home market ; you had not a single hundred of foreign sugar brought in, arid see the inef ficacy of such regulations. In like manner, your ten shilling duty may now increase the supply, and you may impose a protective duty that will exclude foreign sugar, and yet do nothing to ensure per manent relief.—(Hear, hear.) You may increase the supply, you may have more sugar produced than the de mands of this country require, and then we will begin to have signs of depression.—(Hear.) Look, for instance, to what took place under the corn-laws in the year 1836 and in the year 1823. Exactly the state of things I have described took place, there having been a more abundant supply than the market could take off.— (Hear, hear.) In each year you have had Committees to consider the causes of distress. The markets here were dull, not a single cwt. of foreign corn was intro duced, and each of those Committees came to a conchu. sion that legislation was of no value. The price of wheat was 395. in 1835; there was an abundant supply, and a complete monopoly of the home market; there was no competition with the foreigner, and yet com mercial distress prevailed. And so it will be with sugar, if the factitious stimulus of protection is applied to it.—(Bear, hear.) I feel it important, after what has taken place, not to unduly burden the pur chaser; but, in the case of the West Indies especially, I would not depart to the extent of one fraction from the principle that ordinarily prevails; for I have come to the conclusion that the protection demanded would not be for his benefit.—(llear, hear.) I would not de spair of the result of competition with the foreigner, be cause I think that the man must be blind indeed to the signs of the times who can believe that this system of slave labour can ultimately be maintained.—(Hear, hear.) Now look to what the state of this slave labour is in Cuba. Lord Howard de Walden has lately paid a visit there, and this is his account of the condition of Cuba. He is asked by the Noble Lord the Chairman of the Committee a question with respect to the state of that island, and Lord Howard de Walden, after a recent visit to Cuba, makes the following statement, Being asked if the overseer of an estate was obliged to go armed? ho answered, " Yes, I b e li eve , invariably; the overseer had a cutlass and d agger, and three bloodhounds I at his heels close by hi m , understand it was the custom of the island that no white man belonging to an estate should go wholly unarmed. They would not go (ear, hear.) on foot to any distanc e , b ut even on horse b ac k t h ey h ave always their pistol s a t t h e i r sides. " — When you look to th e U n i ted States, are you sure that can the status of slavery H always be maintained ? Do you believe that the inhabitants of the United States are easy and confident under the maintenance of it ? What is the reason all discussion of it is put down, and the abolition of it is apprehended ? It i s on account of the growing antipathy to slavery ; and my conviction is, that that country cannot be blessed which maintains this cursed slave trade.—(Cheers.) For a considerable time there have been frequent complaints of it, and they have led to its gradual abolition. They must ultimately lead to its total reduction, b ecause there is a bl ot upon t h e land that has slavery on i t .—(C heers) The unhealthy and unwholesome rel a ti on i n w hi ch the propr i etors an d their slaves stood towards each other led to constant complaints ; but now they possess the means of security. —(Hear, hear.) I hope you do not repent of the efforts and of the magnificent determination you evinced in the sight of Europe to put an end to it--(Cheers.) It is true that those men who favour it are pos sessed of great riches ; but I hope we will not have to say that it is in vain we cleansed our hearts and washed our hands of the stain of that crime. —(Hear, hear.) Under no circumstances and at no time can that country feel secure in which the system of slavery is permitted to continue; and I, for o n e, do hope that no Government will give en couragement t o su ch a t ra d e , affording its advocates a hypocritical pretence for de feating free trade, and assisting this cursed traffic.— (Hear, hear.) I hope those who uphold it will be wise ira time, and see the consequences that may ensue from the continuance of it. If I thought that a measure pro posing temporary protection would have the effect of impeding the slave trade, I would vote for it at once; but your temporary protection expiring at the end of six years, and then bringing you into competition with foreign sugar, would be of no avail.—(Hear, hear.) But at no time, under no circumstances was this system of slave trading secure, and have there, I ask, any events occurred which have a tendency to add to that insecurity?—(Hear, hear.) There has been a mighty convulsion in E u rope, and the man would b e considered a mad speculator who, in speaking four months ago of the events in Paris, would prophesy that they would involve Vienna and Berlin in anarchy and con - fusion. He would be thought a very unwise man who said it, but still that has occurred, and the mighty heaving of the convulsion is already felt at the other side of the Atlantic.—(Hear, hear.) Look to the state of Martinique, and remember also that these events are furnishing a lesson which the Governments of Brazil and of Cuba ----aye, and of the United States —should learn, and, in fact, are learning.—(Hear, hear.) My opinion is, that the events which are happening in Eu rope must precipitate the time when there shall be a final extinction both of the slave trade and of the slave.—(Hear, h ear .) This state of things should be met by t i me ly precaution on the part of this country. There will be increased sympathy with the condition of the slave ; and he who traffics in human blond and brings the slave to Cuba and to Brazil from the coast of Africa, may find, notwithstand ing his present prosperity, and the price he sets on sla very, that his prosperity may come to an end.—(Cheers.) It is my hope that it may come to an end, through wise but whether it be brought t o a a and d end providentb by w wise be lievelegislation its doom is sealed.—(Cheers.) I believe that it ftn is d i a p ti rO n vident legislation or not, I cannot lone survive, and that the slave at no remote pa. rind must be emancipated.—(Cheers.) To use the mag nificent language of Curran, which was expressed in words worthy of the aspiration :—" No matter in what language the doom of the slave may have been pro nounced—no matter in what disastrous battle his liberty may have been cloven down—no matter what complexion incompatible with freedom—an Indian or an African sun may have burned upon his brow, the time is fast approaching when his soul shall walk abroad in his na tive majesty — whet] his body shall swell beyond the measure of the chain which bursts from around him, and he shall stand forth redeemed , regenerated, and disenthralled by the genius of universal emancipation." Mr. URQUHART moved the adjournment of the de bate amid loud cries for a division. Mr. ANSTEY seconded the amendment. Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the House would come to a division before they again separated,—(Hear.) Mr. URQUHART, having withdrawn his amend ment, proceeded to s a y th a t he could not assent to the Government proposition. He was no friend to the ge neral principle of protection, but he thought the condi tion of the West Indies presented an exceptional case. —(Flear, hear.) Ho called upon the House, by assent ing to the amendment of the Hon. Baronet to save our West India colonies from the destruction so imminently threatening them. The Marquis of GRANBY denied that the distress of the West India planters arose from the recent com mercial depression. If so, how was it that - the same cause had not operated upon the importations to this u course c o nty r p o o i f n ß te r d a z o i and a l thy Cubathei g Right i s g u ht a i r ? I Hon. on . Baronetf by pursuing the w age the s of the labourer were to be reduced, would the planters be enabled to take advantage of that reduction ? Ile at once said no ; the only mode of benefiting the plan tars was by giving them protection, and encouraging immigration of labourers. His Right Hon. Friend the Member fur Ripon had asked the other night how the West Indies could contend with the slave-grown sugars produced at 15s. 9d. under the 10s. protective duty pro posed by the West Indian party ? If they could not contend with these sugars at such a duty, how much less could the West India planters compete at the diffe rential duty proposed by the Goverament of 7s. They certainly could not do so. Were they to consider the great question before them on party motives ? He protested against entering upon such a course, and before he sat down he must entreat the House to remember that in 1834, when the interests of the colonies and of humanity were antagonistic and opposed to each other the Legislature did not hesitate to indemnify the planter, and now when the interest of the colonies and of huma nity were identical, it was still more incumbent on them to have a regard to those two considerations, and not to expose the West Indies to certain ruin by bringing into competition with them the cheaper produce of slave holding colonies. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the subject before the House was one well worthy of its most serious consi deration. After hearing all the arguments that had been urged during the debate, he had come to the same conclusion that had already been stated in the course of the discussion—namely, that the motion of the Hon. Baronet had only embarrassed the question without affording the House the means of coming to a correct conclusion as to the real subjects at issue. If the Hon. Baronet had moved an amendment on the proposition of the Government to the effect that no adequate relief could be afforded to the West Indians save by the adop tioa of the recommendations of the West India Commit tee, he (Lord J. Russell) was ready to admit that the House would then be on the road towards coming to some conclusion on the question before them. But the Hon. Baronet's amendment merely went the length of con demning the propositions made by her Majesty's Govern ment. If he had even allowed it to be supposed that the present was a party movement for the purpose of unseating the Government, he (Lord J. Russell) could have understood the proceeding. But it had been clearly shown that whilst there were many who were disposed to vote for his amendment, they comprised no inconsi derable number of Hon. Members who altogether disap apnrodvtehdeoreffothree, v a i l e t w h o s n e g n h ter h t e ai m ne ig d h b t y an th ee e ee H d o i n n . d ß es a t r r o o n y e in t g the Government, he would not make any progress to wards giving relief to the West Indians. If the Hon . Baronet's amendment was affirmed, he would find the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford Univer sity and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University both alike ready to oppose his t l hOes Hon.. H p Go r o ac t sn e e c t l t ee i E no In d d u w t o y, and counlsdent informtto declare o hani mdtone it naet to th e be of rt eh mo do usec r t e ßi o t in h g an Right the 14s. duty to 10s. would be dangerous to the revenue. How then would the question stand in the event of the amendment being carried ? The Government would thereby have a negative put upon their propositions, and the Hon. Baronet's proposal would meet with a similar reception, and the Right Honourable Gentle man the Member for Oxford University would be ready to bring forward his views, which it might be ad• van tageous to discuss, but which could not then be entered upon. The only result which the Hon. Baronet would arrive at would be that the propositions of the Govern ment being rejected, and none others having been adopted in their stead, the West Indians would find themselves, after so many nights' discussion, landed at the scale of duties which would come into operation on the sth of July. Was that the Hoe. Baronet's mode of coming to their assistance and relief? Having said this much with respect to the probable results of the affirma tion of the amendment, he should take that opportunity course eioiewnhith respect of making a further statement respecting the views en tertained by the Government on the subject under con sideration. The great changes which had taken place in the West Indian colonies—first, in the emancipation of the slaves; subsequently, in the admission of foreign free labour, and then of slave labour sugars into the home market—had made an immense change in the condition of the planters and proprietors of those islands. Those changes —more especially the first— called for corresponding legislative measures on the part of the Government. Those measures bad been projected and brought forward, but they met with every species of obstruction and delay, by which means they were prevented from proving so beneficial as they ought to have been to the West Indian Colonists. He would first allude to the Vagrancy Act, and the means proposed for regulating the employment of labourers in those islands. Having been for soma time Chief Se cretary for the Colonies he was enabled to state from his own knowledge that the difficulties which had been put in the way of passing those laws chiefly referred to the fears that an infringement of the Emancipation Act was contemplated. There was at that time a very strict and zealous supervision exercised over the colonial legisla ture by the anti-slavery party in this country, and this supervision was carried to a very high pitch of jealousy and watchfulness. But that feeling was a very natural , one, resulting, as it did, from the long and arduous struggle that had been made between the party seeking to perpetuate slavery and the emancipation party. But be that as it might, the contest certainly had the effect of preventing the free course of legislation, and the speedy passing of the vagrancy and employment Act; and the constant reports sent home by the stipendiary magistrates respecting the treatment of the labourers in the West Indian islands created and maintained a great degree of irritation. He only referred to those order robdt by r ho et h to c other laws, consideredlsahwosw, r regulating uh complete t in the g th no Emancipation nsltoastse iot f free domw sAtocpticcs i o n uilad which the negro population were to exist. aecomp Anotheraanat accompanied ea same more time twith t he question preceding came o t n o e b . e con sidered Thecoonudtituiopno,nowthiennig,totothceomlapregtee io o nu f r p aed roduction, notwithstanding the i e i sn capitalpw c e i r c e tp a waW d mi v tl a su n tCn ta tlu g nbo e daf s which the latter island possessed over the British West Indian planters. But the great want ex t. h sat wott e ml Ahoee obrxsskr i tetai sehd n neg d todyoe f perienced by the latter was that of continuous labour. Great objections had been raised to the importation of any labourers from Africa, as that, it was feared, would endanger the liberty of the negroes. He had tried to promote immigration into the West Indies from Sierra Leone of liberated or free Africans, but few went. European immigration mt hutelthat utaetttoio,lui others to failed. The Coolie immigration also failed. The want bbiftt o nhueoefcnl that hrtreieegl continuous yttrffshnseceleaetyrthtshijr, eopiawagrnninssddtl ißoann stock oiut)ankgot, beneficial, under heod o ot ttsae u fhtssr r iiteHhamhaoba h motansohtn a t mlauei d . dsrwdrake Baronet arel e vbn x e t enableil s i e t hf e ad hed the h f o ot rh hardlyupwardsceuo thought ohnthi satidst its fito to ae n rrcy u n m e number highlye r tt loef imported 3‘iena b z .r la_ wouldlabourers —a measure s ddbvea appliedn ce o f 50 t 00,00 other t p o u r r t p h o e s e p s u . r Ifpo hs reuse f (Lordoa ortn o f that J. aem w t npocirrrockoup.rl proposed hs ne T doh h taa e advanced the whichi ev g apr planters n a u et Russell) i ep o tdoh n u se , pm a o woino n tner d i ar draining, etoh plan a a had similar ie a un s asked in e at d dor whethertthissuch ou cthh paart ocbpoy a ou s Wr i p owners w e nleading Groat the re eag H yth o ßtt u or s ii e ict ao t ai o nnn. thinkaadnGadef fur rtr t i h eepl a mua t nbad t h o e b :Iv prepared to advance money on loans to the West Indian o t w o f cttrhhe making colonies o e satech,eyeoof 1. wocnoai Member reni wasscas_i s ihn ae a tn l fhwmdoeoro would :tirtdhei tramways m se t havep uolsnnsndii University Indies, sbdtijsotecycfgc objection oevv. l public c h works, ad al i s u o d , e i d f there_ ... h c drainage which would be likely to increase the produce the appropriation of the 500,0001. to such works._ (Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Gentle mans. — attributed the whole of the distress in the to the Act of 1846. It did not appear to hi t that m the Act of 1846 was the principal, though it - might be one, cause of that distress. In stating the probable e, effects of that Bill at the time he introduced it, h 240,000 tons might be introduced from the ° British that sessions, 20,000 tons, the produce of free labour, rtish Pos -20,000 of other foreign sugar, making altogether and 280,000 tons. He did not expect that the produce of possessions would have been increased, but it their Own that their produce last year reached 280 0 happened , 00 tons, and this, together with 48,000 tons, the produce of other increase . o er countries, caused a very great depression of prices The increase of their West Indian colonies alone * by the returns moved for by the Hon. Me ~ as appeared too:11)er for Leo minster, was from 2,000,000 cwt.,200,000, 2,500,000 cwt. 2,800 2,800,000 cwt., and last 2 year it was 3,202,775 cwt. That showed an enormous increase of production, though he admitted to the Right Hon Gen tleman (Mr. Goulburn) that this increase * attributed to the Act of 1846. But it was not to be showed an im mense increase of production; and if that had been con comitant with the high prices which pr l time of monopoly, he believed it would have caused as much distress as prevailed at the re ent time. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford, did not concur in the Proposal ot a 10s. duty, neither was he in favour of the plan I a 7s. duty as pro posed by the Government. He must therefore suppose that the Right Hon. Gentleman was • intermediate scale between 7s. and I°lof f avo , T ha o t f some only make a difference of Is. 6d. or 2s. at the utmost, would and ho owned that ; it might be fairly taken into ' consi deration in Committee. Another Hon. Gentleman was in favour of the 10s. duty, but for three years cause, if the 10s. duty were:to exist for a longer period —for 10 years—it would raise the rate of labour. If the Hon. Gentleman was right as to the effect such a measure would have on the rate of labour, he (Lord J. Russell) did not see why it should not have the same effect, though the duty was to continue but for two or three years. He believed that such a proposition would give rise to fresh speculation and compe tition, and that at the end of the three years the West Indians would come to them with the same com plaints that they did now. In the midst of the various schemes proposed, that of the Government seemed to him to combine every advantage. He did not think, in the face of the distress of the West Indians, that it would be right to allow the Act of 1846 to come into further operation. What they proposed, therefore, was to give immediate protection to the planters by increas tee,nascirtwc,sen n il 0 ea nn ts shouldwl,oa for ing that protection for a time, and to increase that ad vantage still more, and at the same time to benefit the consumer by lowering the duty. He expected that the consumption would be greatly increased by this plan, and he believed the only chance of the planters con. sisted in that great consumption. The recommei,dation of the Committee held out the same advantage, 1);:t at a sacrifice to the revenue of 960,000/. 11 would not then go into the question of the probable increase of consumption, but it was calculated that the revenue would not suffer to the extent of more than 30,0001. or 40,0001., and ultimately it would not be less than it was at present. There remained the objection that the measure would encourage the slave trade. If were now a question proposed for the first time, that no sugar, the produce of slave labour, should be admitted, he w ou ld a d m i t t h at was a fair ground of objection.—(Hear.) But the proposition the House had to deal with was not that of admitting slave labour produce fur the first time. It was a question of increased protection in favour of their own colonies. If the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) would repeal the act of 1846 al together, and totally prohibit slave-grown sugar, he could then admit his argument against the present plan; but his Hon. Friend must be convinced that it would be a vain and fruitless effort. IF his lion. Friend were to succeed in his views, and that sugar became dearer in consequence, it would only occasion a fresh struggle and fresh agitation, which would place the West Indian body in the worst of all positions—namely, in the uncertainty as to the amount of protection that Parliament could afford them.—(Hear.) His belief was, that they adopted a sound system when they said, in the first place, that they would not admit slavery in any British possession, and in the next place, when they said that they would not consider the institution of slavery as a bar against the admission of goods the produce of slave labour. It was said that the Act of 1846 was inconsistent with the Acts for putting an end to slavery; but, in his opinion, the inconsistency was far greater in making a distinction between sugar and other articles which were produced by the labour of slaves, excluding one and admitting the others.—(Hear, hear.) His belief was that these distinctions of tariffs were not the mode by which they could attain the abolition of slavery in the world. He rather thought if they relied on the progress of opinion, on the impatience that there would be on the part of the slaves themselves retained in slavery in Cuba and Brazil, when they saw the inhabitants of Jamaica and Trinidad, and in the neighbouring islands, in a state of freedom, that they would go on a better basis than by giving protection to the We'st Indians. Setting aside the questio n of slavery in the United States, of which he was n ot able to see any satisfactory solution, he did ex. pest that slavery in Cuba and Brazil would be abolished —abolished all the sooner if they did not make it a matter of tariffs and regulations—if they said, "We have abolished slavery ourselves—we stand free from any stain of this kind ---We do not inquire into the insti tutions of foreign cou ntries—we wish to see freedom prevail —we leave it to its own strength and security, and we leave t o y ou the time and manner in which you will follow our example. —(gear hear.) Mr. MUNTZ said he had voted for the Bill of 1846, because he understood it was to be a settlement of this question. He would now vote against the proposition of the Government because it was an —(Hear.) He supported the measure unsettlement of it. the 1846 on free trade principles. There was no doubt the qu estion was one whether they would have free trade oislieeriyiloa—r whether they would give up their colonies. jesty's Government proposed a measure which seas no thing in itself. It deranged everything and arraeged nothing.--(Hear.) It was said that it would ito the planters. Th e pl anters would be in the same Position in 1849 as they were now. It was a question of whether they would kill them at once or bleed them to death.—(Laughter.) Because he voted for the amend ment of the Honourable Baronet it did not follow from that that he was going to support any proposition he was going to make. He was going to vote against the pro position of the Government because he considered it futile, peddling, and trivial—(Hear)—and was a depar ture from the Act of 1846.—(Hear.) Mr. ANSTEY rose amidst loud shouts of " Divide," and " Oh, oh." He looked upon the present question as a question of justice. As an Irish Member he protested against the degrading offer made on the part of her Majesty's Government by some agent, that if they sup ported the Government on this question they would not be too firmly bound by the measure before the House.— (Oh, oh.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding must look on this as a question of the dismemberment of the empire, because in a pamphlet called " England, Ireland, and America, by a Manchester Manufacturer," supposed to b e th e H on . G entleman, he says that the colonies are an encumbrance to this country; that it was desirable they should get rid of the colonies; that America had said that; and yet that America was their best friend. Such were the opinions of the free-trade school of Manchester. Honourable Members on that side of the House had prophesied the results of this measure, and now they might be recognised.— (Cries of " Que s ti on .") Th e H on. and Learned Member continued amid much noise to quote from Mr. Cobden's pamphlet, with a view of proving that the policy of the free-trade school tended to the sacrifice of our colonies and the dismemberment of the empire. The impatience of the House increased to such a degree that the Hon. and Learned Member was unable to obtain a hearing, and, in consequence, he moved the adjournment of the House. Mr. FORBES seconded the motion. Colonel DUNNE emphatically denied that any bar gain had been effered by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to the Irish Members, or had been accepted by those gentlemen, respecting the differential duties on rum. Lord J. RUSSELL appealed to the Hon. and Learned Member for Youghai to withdraw hia motion fur ftcyourn meet, and to allow the House to come to a division on the main question. Mr. AgSTEY having complained of the interruption, explained that he had made n o charge against the Irish Members, of which body he was one himself. All he had said was that an imputation of compromise had gone abroad, and he had felt it to be his duty to stand up in his place and repudiate it. H aving withdrawn his mo tion for adjournment, the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman proceeded. With respect to the main question, he conjured the House to pause before they voted for a policy which might involve the destruction of some of the most important of our colonies. It was hard that the West Indies, which for 150 years had been the vic tims of a most rigid restrictive system, should now be cast off and exposed to poverty and ruin, in compliance with the new-fangled doctrines of free-trade policy.— (Loud cries of " Divide.") The House divided, when there appeared-- For the original m0ti0n............ 260 For Sir J. l'akington's amendment...... 245 Majority .................. --15 The announcement of the numbers was received with loud cheers by the Protectionists. The House then went into Committee, Mr. BERNAL in the ohair. A . resolution t o the effect that the d u ty t o b e i m p ose d on foreign sugar from the sth of July, 1843, to the sth of July, 1849, be 19s. 6d. per cwt.; from thence to July 5, 1850, 18s. per cwt.; from thence to July 5, 1851, 16s. 6d. per cwt.; and after that date 15s. per cwt., was then read, and the Chairman immediately reported progress, the Committee to sit again to-morrow (this day), when the resolution will be discussed. Mr. M. GIBSON intimated that Mr. Bright intended to propose his amendment, " That it was not expedient to alter the Sugar Duties Act of 1846" as a substantive motion. Mr. WARD obtained leave to bring in a Bill to regu late, for a time to be limited, the premiums and annuities of the Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society. The Bill was brought in and read the first time. REPRESENTATIVE REFORM—MR. HUME'S MO. Mr. OSBORNE begged to TION ask his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose what he understood was to be done with regard to his motion. A number of gentle men had come u p t o town on purpose to be present during the debate, and being one of them, he wished to know if the motion would positively be brought on on Thursday next. He could assure his Honourable Friend he w as l os i ng his division by thus putting off the motion une day after another.—(Hear.) Mr. lIUME said, if his Hon. Friend had been in the House at five o'clock he would have known he had no alternative but to put off the motion. He could only say, in answer to the question that had been put to him, the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had assured him he would not interfere with Thursday. Mr. MUNTZ did not understand these sort of ar rangements. Last week the Noble Lord gave up to morrow; then he took it back, and now wished to deter the debate till Thursday. A week ago the Hon. Mem ber refused to put off his motion, yet now he postponed it in the face of the Noble Lord's own direct acknow ledgment that he should have to- morrow. Mr. WA WN said they had been sitting for six months, anddonevery little. Mr. MUNTZ wished to put another question to the Hon. Member for Montrose. It was not yet fairly settled when the subject was to come on again. It might be deferred again, supposing it were fixed for Thursday; and he again asked his Hon. Friend whether he had come to a positive understanding with her Majesty's Go vernment that the debate should be resumed next Thurs. day?--(Hear.) Mr. HUME could only say the House had directed the debate to be resumed next Thursday, but whether it would come on then, he could not tell. He should certainly endeavour to bring it on. There was some. thing unreasonable and unfair in the proceedings of his Hon. Friends, because they had stated publicly their impressions just as if he had taken any part in post poning the subject. The fact was, at the commencement of the sitting he had protested against the postpone ment ; and he considered it extremely unfair in his Hon. Friends to argue as if he had agreed to the post ponement. Mr. OSBORNE—You gave up. Mr. HUME—I did not.—(A laugh.) If his Hon. Friend had been in the House at five o'clock, he would have found that the House agreed that public business should go on to-morrow. It was unfair in his lion. Friends to go out of town themselves, and then reproach him for not bringing on the question. lie would tell them, however, he did not want them.—(A laugh.) It appeared to him that they only wanted to hold him up to the country as a traitor; but he was not, and he never would be.--(Laughter.) Mr. BROTHERTON bore testimony to the efforts of his Honourable Friend to bring on the motion, and he added it was unjust for Members who had scarcely been in the:House (once during the session, to assail his Hon. Friend for not b e i ng successful. T he f act was, it was the duty of all Hon. Members to attend in the House constantly, and not come up to town from the country just when they thought a particular motion was coming on.—(Hear.) Mr. HUDSON thought the Honourable Member for Montrose was entitled to the sympathy of the House. —(A laugh.) In his difficult situation as head of a pro visional government, it was a little unfair for his friends to attack him, for he (Mr. Hudson) could bear testimony that he had done everything in his power to bring on the question. The Hon. Gentleman certainly ought to receive the sympathy of th e H ouse i n hi s new and diffi- I cult position; but he (Mr. Hudson) hoped he would here after contrive to keep his friends in better order. The Hon. Member, however, was a little harshly dealt with r by his friends.—(A laugh.) Mr. MUNTZ had made no attack upon the Hon. Member for Montrose; but he must say this, that if he (Mr. Aluntz) had received a note from the Prime Minister, fixing a certain night for the discussion, the Prime Minister would have found considerable difficulty in persuading him to depart from the arrangement. Mr. HENLEY said the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) seemed to him to have done all in his power to please all his colleagues or subjects by bringing on the measure, but that did not appear to suit them. They seemed to press the Hon. Member to say—" I will not bring it on, because you want to go out of town." After a few words from Mr. Wawn, Sir G. Grey, Mr. Osborne, and Mr. Aglionby, the subject dropped. The House adjourned at Two o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. From the Yotes and Proceedings of the House of Copunous.) THURSDAY, JUNE 29. SUGAR DUTIES. --- Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to be made to Question (June 19) " That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair;" and which Amendment was to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " this House, consider. ing the evidence taken during the present Session before the Select Committee on Sugar and Coffee Planting, is of opinion, that the remedies proposed by her Majesty's Minis ters for the great distress in the Sugar-growing Possessions of the British Crown, which that Committee has unani mously declared to require an immediate application of relief, will neither effect that object, nor check the stimulus to the Slave Trade, which a diminution in the production of Sugar in those Possessions must inevitably occasion," instead thereof,:— Question again proposed, "That the words pro posed to be left out stand part of the Question." Debate resumed :—Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The House divided ; MAJORITY—AYES, 260. Abdy, T. N. Freestnn, Colonel Ogle, S. C. Adair,lllugh E. French, F. Ord, W. Adair, R. Shafto Frewen, C. H. Owen, Sir J. Aglionby, H. A. Gibson, T. M. Paget, Lord A. Alcock, Thomas Glyn, George Carr Paget, Lord Clarence Anderson, Arthur Grace, 0. 1). Paget, Lord G. Anson, Colonel Graham, Sir James Palmer, Roundell Anson, Viscount Grenfell, C. Pascoe Palmerston, Vit. Armstrong, Sir A. Grenfel , Charles W. Parker, John Arundel, Earl oc Grey, Sir George Pearson, Charles BagshawlJoLut Grey, R. W. Pechell, Captain Baines, M. T. Grosvenor, Lord R. Peel, Sir Robert Baring, Henry Guest, Sir J. Perfect, Robert Baring, Sir F. T. Hall, Sir B. Peto, Samuel K. Barnard, E. G. Hallyburton, Lord Philips, Sir G. R. Bellew, R. M. Hanmer, Sir J. Pigott, Francis Berkeley, Captain Harcourt, G. Pilkington, James Berkeley, H. F. Hardcastie, J. A. Price, Sir R. Bernal, Ralph Haste, Alexander Pugh, David Blake, M. J. Matte, Archibald Pusey, P. Bolling, William Hawes, Benjamin Rapkael, Alexander Bouverie, - E. P. Hay, Lord J. Reynolds, John Bowring, Dr. Hayter, W. G. Ricardo, J. L. Boyd, John Headlam, T. E. Ricardo, Osman Boyle, Colonel Heathcoat, John Rice, E. R. Brand, Thomas Heathcote, G. J. Robartes, T. J. Brocklehurst, John Heneage, G. H. W. Roch e , E. B . Brotherton, J. Heneage, Edward Romilly,;Sir John Brown, W. Henry, Alexander Russell, Lord John Buller, Charles Heywood, James Hassell, Edward S. Butler, P. S.: Hindley, C. Russell, F. C: H. Callaghan, D. llobhouse, Sir John Rutherford, A. Campbell, W. F. llobhouse, T. B. Salwey, Colonel Carter, John B. Hodges, T. L. Scholefield, William Caulfield, Colonel Hodges, T. Twisden Scrope, G. P. Cavendish, C. C. liollond, Robert Seymour, Sir[H. Cavendish, G. 11. Howard, C. W. Seymour, Lord Cavendish, W.G. Howard, E. G. Shafto, R. D. Childers, J. W. Howard, Sir R. Shell, R. L. C helineley, Sir M. Hughes, W. B. Shelburne, Earl of Clay. Jam es liumphery, Ald. Sherid an , R . B, Clay, sir W. Jervis, Sir John Simeon, John Cle obements, Ch ar l es Kershaw, James Slaney, Robert A. Cdn, Richard Kildare, Marquis Smith, R. V. Cockburn, Alex. Coke, Edw ard p c. King, Peter John Smith; John A. Colebrooke, Sir T. Labouchere, Henry Smith, J. Benjamin Collins, Iv. Lacy, Henry C. Somerville. Sir W. Cowper, W. F. Langston, J. H. Spearman, H. J. Lascelles, W. S. Stanfield, W. R. C. Craig, W. G. L emon. Sir CharleS Stanton, W. H. Cubitt, William Leonard, T. B. Strickland, Sir G. Currie, ltaikes Lewis, sir T. Stuart, Lord D. Dalrymple,:Captain Lewis, G. C. Dashwood, G. H. Littleton, E. R. Stuart, Lord J. 3 L i o a c c h m , n.inaomne:w...A. T e a n lbo ne t n , t, C. ii ß . . J. Davie, Sir Henry T hompson T ick p n s eze , Dawson, T. V. Locke, Joseph Talfourd, Sergeant Denison, W. J. M'Cullagli, W. T. Tancred, H. W. , R. A. Denison, J. E. Thvett, E. M'Gregor, John M'Taggart, Sir J. Thompson Colonel Douglas, Sir C. Douro, Marquis of Maher, N. , George Thornely, Thomas Duff', G. S. Maitland,;Thomas Tollemache . Duke, Sir James Marshall, J. IG. Towneley, J oh n ) Duncan, Lord Marshall, W. Townley, E.G.: Duncan, George Martin, John Townshend, Captain Duncuft, John Martinr. W. Traill,lGeorge Duudas, Admiral Martin, Samuel Trelawny, J. S. Dundas, Sir D. Matheson, A. Turner. E. Ebrington, Viscount Matheson, James Vane, Lord H. Ellice, E., jun. Matheson, Colonel Verney, Sir H. Elliot, J. E. Maule, Fox 'Villiers, Charles Enfield, Lord Melgund, Viscount Vivian, J. H. Estcourt, J. B. B. Milner, W. M. Wall, C. B. Evans, Sir De Lacy Milnes, R. M. 0 Ward, H. G. Evans, John Milton, Viscount Watkins, Colonel Evans, William Mitchell, A. T. Westhead, J. P. Ewart, William Molesworth, Sir W. Willcox, Brodie Fergus, John . Morpeth, Viscount Williams, John Ferguson, Col. Morison, Sir W. Wilson, James - Ferguson, Sir R. Morris, David Wilson, Matthew Fitzpatrick, JW. Mostyn, E. Wood, Sir Charles Fitzwilliam, G. W. Mulgrave, Earl Wrightson, W. B. Foley, J. H. Noel, Gerald J. Wyld, James Fordyce, A. D. tiorreys, Lord Young, Sir John Forster, M. Norreys, Sir D. Fortescue, Chichester O'Brien, Jolla' TIMM. Fortescue, J. W. O'Brien, Timothy Tufhell, Henry Fox, W. J. O'Connell, M. J. Hill, Lord Marcus Acland, Sir T. D. Adare, Viscount Adderley, C. B. Anstey, Thomas C. Archdall, Captain Bagge, William Bagot, William Bailey, Joseph, jun. Baillie, H. J. Baldock, E. H. Baldwin, Barry Bankes, G. Barkly, Henry Baring, Thomas Barrington, Viscount Bateson, T. Beckett, W. Benbow,!John ilenett, J. Bennet, Philip Bentinck, Lord G. Bentinck, Lord H. Beresford, William Berkeley, Grantley Birch, Sir Thomas Blackall, S. W. Bourke, Richard S. Bowles, Admiral Bramston, T. W. Bremridge, Richard Broadley Henry MINORITY—NOES, 245. Fagan, William Napier,. Joseph Farnham, E. Nee ld, John Ferrer, James Neeld, Joseph Fellowes, E. Newdegate, N. Filmier, Sir E. Newport, Visct. Fitzroy, Henry Nugent, Lord Floyer, John Oltrien,Sir Lucius Forbes, William O'Connor, Feargus Forester, G. C. Ossulton, Lord Fox, S. L. Oswald, A. Fuller, A. E. Packe, C. W. Galway, Viscount Palmer, Robert Oaskell, J. M. Pattison, James Gladstone, W. E. Peel, Colonel Godson,lß. Pennant, Colonel Gooch, E. S. Pigot, Sir R. Gordon, Admiral Plowden, W. H. Gore, W. 0. Powell, Col. Goring, Charles Powlett, Lord W. Goulburn, Henry Reid. Colonel 4 Granby, Marquis of Rendlesham, Lord Greene, John Renton, John C. Greene, Thomas Repton, G. W. Grogan, E. Richards. Richard : Gwyn, How el Robinson. George Ilaggitt, F. H. Rolleston, Colonel Hale, R. B. Rufford, Francis Halford, Sir 11. Rushout, Captain Hall, Colonel Sadloir, John _ Halsey, T. P. Sanders, George Hamilton, G. A. Scott, F. Ilamilton, J. H. Scully Francis Hamilton, Lord C. Seaham, Viscount Harris, Captain Seymer, Henry Ker Hayes, Sir E. Shirley, E. J. Henley, J. W. Sibthorp, Colonel Herbert, Sydney Sidney, Alderman lierries, J. C. Smyth, John G. Hervey, Lord A. Smythe, George lilldyard, It. C. Smollett, A. Hildyard, T. B. Somerset, Captain Hodgson, W. N. Somerton, Viscount Hood, Sir A. Sotheron, T. H. S. Hope, H. T. t Spooner, Richard Hornby, John Stafford, Augustus Hotham, Lord Stuart, Henry Hudson, George Stuart, J. Hume, Joseph Slut, 11. G. Ingestre, Viscount Sullivan, Michael Inglis, Sinit. Sutton, H. M. Jocelyn, Viscount Taylor, T. E. Johnstone, Sir J. Thesiger, Sir F. Jolliffe, Sir W. H. Thompson, Alderman Jones, Captain Thornhill, G. Keogh, William Tollemache, Jobil Knightley, Sir C. Trevor, G. R. Knox, Colonel Trollope, Sir J. Lasccllcs, E. Turner, G. J. Legh, G. C. Urquhart, David Lennox, Lord HG. Verner, Sir W. Lincoln, Earl of Vesey, T. Lindsay, Colonel Villiers, Viscount Lockhart, A. E. 'Villiers, F. W. Lockhart, W. Vivian, J. E. Lowther, Henry Vyse, H. Mackenzie, W. F. Waddington. David M'Naghten, Sir E. Waddington, H. S. Mallon, Lord Walpole, S. H. Mandeville, Viscount Walsh, Sir J. B. Mangles, R. D. Walter, John Manners, Lord C. Wawn, J T. Manners, Lord G. Welby, G. E. March, Earl of Williams, T. P. Masterman, John Williamson, Sir H. Maxwell, J. I'. Willoughby, Sir 11. Meux, Sir' Henry Wodehouse,E. Miles, P. W. S. Worcester, Marquis Monsell, William Wortley, J. S. Moore, George H. Wyvill, M. Morgan, 0. Mailings, J. B. TELLERS. Muntz, G F. Pakington, Sir J. S. Mure, Colonel Buxton, Sir E. Brooke, Lord Bruce, Lord E. Bruce, C. L. Bruen, Colonel Buck, L. W. Buller, Sir J. Y. Bunbury, W. Burghley, Lord Burrell, Sir C. Cabbell, B. B. Cardwell, Edward Carew, W. P. Charterls, Francis Chichester, Lord J. Christopher, R. Christy, Samuel Clerk Sir:G. Clive, It. H. Clive, Henry B. Cochrane, A. Cocks, Thomas S. Codrington, Sir W. Cole, H. A. Coles, 11. B. Compton, H. C. Conolly, Col. Copeland, Alderman Corry, H. Cotton, W. 11. Oonrtenay, Lord Currie, Henry Darner, Colonel Davies, D. A. S. Devereux, J. T. Disraeli, B. Dod, J. W. Dodd, George Drag, J. S. W. Drumlanrig, Vis. Drummond, Homo Duckworth, Sir J. Duncombe, A. Duncombe, 0. Dundas, George Dunne, Francis P. The Pre, C. G. East, Sir:J. B. Edwards, Henry Egerton, Sir P. Egerton, W. T. Emlyn, Viscount Euston, Earl CHELTENHAM ELECTION. - - - - CHELTENHAM, THURSDAY EVENING.—The polling commenced at eight o'clock this morning. The Hon. C. F. Berkeley kept the lead all day, and at the close the numbers were as follows Hon. C. F. Berkeley Mr. Gardner .... Majority for Mr. Berkeley 76 A good deal of excitement prevailed throughout the day. HORSIIAM ELECTION. _ - - - The polling for this borough took place yesterday. At four o'clock the Under-Sheriff declared the result to be as follows : Mr. Fitzgerald Lord E. Howard Mr. Fitzgerald having been declared duly elected,, thanked the electors for the honour conferred on him. Lord E. Howard likewise thanked his supporters, who, with only two or three exceptions, had recorded their votes in his favour uncanvassed and unasked. FORGING OPERA ORDERS.--W e have been re quested by Mr. Grogan, of the firm of Grogan and Scott, Strand, and of the Lyceum Theatre, to state that Alfred Grogan, who was committed from Bow-street the day before yesterday on a charge of forging orders for her Majesty's Theatre (an account of whose examina tion appeared in The Sun of yesterday), is in no way connected with the business in the Strand, or with the Lyceum Theatre. [ADVERTISEMENT.)—Cured by Holloway's oint ment and Pills Wounds in a Leg after more than Three Years' Suffering.—The wife of Mr. James P. Springle, schoolmaster, of the town of St. Patrick, Grenada, had been suffering with an ulcerated leg for more than three years, which was so bad that it baffled the skill of all the professional practitioners in the island, who could not possibly Beal it; after every other remedy had failed, Holloway's Ointment and Pills were resorted to, and, by their powerful efficacy, the wounds were soon headed, and a perfectly sound cure effected. These medicines excel all others in the cure of Scrofula, King's evil, Glandular or other unnatural swellings. Sold by all Druggists, and at Professor Holloway's Establisbmsent 244, Strand, London.