The Sun. — London, England, 1866-05-04 00:00:00

On) gross total of the increase, I find that the increased growth in the amount of property insured traceable to the reduction of the duty is £30,000,000, or about 5 per cent. of the whole amount. I have no reason to sup pose that there will be any .material variation when we come to have the receipt for the whole of the first year ; but it is possible that the figures for the following year may be higher. Yet, I still hold to the belief—although, of course, without presuming to dogmatise upon the subject— that if the House intend again to deal with this duty at any future period—l think it would be premature to say any thing about it on the present occasion, when the change has not been a year in operation—but if the fire insurance duty is . to be dealt w ith h erea ft er with a view to a further remis sion, I frankly own that I believe it would be necessary to abandon the idea of its being hereafter a considerable source of revenue. In fact, I incline to the view indicated by the terms of the amendment suggested by the hon. member for Buckingham (Mr. Hubbard)—namely, that it is not wise and politic to raise any large revenue from that source — that thiS duty ought to be regarded as a tax upon property, that its remission is a remission-upon property, and that if it is dealt with again it ought to be by property that an equivalent for it should be found, should such equivalent be needed. (H ear. ) Si r, th ere are three other commod i t i es that I would m en ti o n with reference to duties. The re venue from malt has been a very considerable revenue. The receipt bad risen in the year 1864-5 to a point quite unprecedented ; and in estimating it for the year 1865-6 , we were so far cautious that we anticipated a small dimi nution. I believe it is a characteristic of this head of re venue that it runs favourably for two years together. It certainly has been so in the present instance; for we esti mated the revenue from malt at £5,850,000, and it has pro duced no less a sum than £6,410,000; showing an excess of £560,000. I come next to the revenue from spirits ; and the state of that revenue likewise, if we are to con sider an increase of it as satisfactory, is satisfactory. The receipt u p on British spirits, whi ch was estimated at £10,300,000, has produced .£10,450,000 ; the receipts upon colonial and foreign spirits, which was estimated at £3,295,000, h as produced £3,505,000. So that our receipt Upon spirits has been no less than £13,955,000, or, in round numbers, £14,000,000, which, I think, is possibly . the largest sum ever raised in any country or in any period of history ' by a direct tax on one single commodity. (Hear, hear.) That, Sir, is the whole of the review which it is necessary for me now to take of the transactions and experience of the last year, except that I ought to state, in conformity with the usual practice, that the Exchequer balance has been reduced in the course of the year, in consequence of the application of a somewhat unusual amount to the liquidation of debt. I will now give the Committee the esti mate we formed of the revenue and expenditure for the current year of 1866-7. The charges on the funded and un funded debt under the previous law as they now exist, and with a small allowance for the additional charge brought upon it through the conver s i on o f perpetual to terminable annuities, sanctioned by the house, is £26,140,000; Con solidated Fund charges are £1,880,000 ; the army,. £14,095, 000 ; the navy, £10,400,000 ; revenue collection, £5,003,000; the packet service, £821,000 ; and the miscel laneous estimates, £7,886,000, giving a total of £66,225,000. The total of the Estimates of last year was £66,147,000, so that there is an actual increase upon the Estimates of the present year compared with those of last year, though it does not amount to a large sum—viz., £78,000. (Hear , hear.) I oug ht to exp l a i n to t h e C omm ittee how i t is that that increase has arisen ; because, though cer tainly it would have been more satisfactory , had it been practicable, to present both the nominal and the real decrease in the expenditure, yet I do not think it can be said upon a fair examination of the figures that they indicate any real increase in the permanent expenditure ; I should rather say the reverse. (Hear, hear.) The Army Estimates for the year show a decrease of £253,000, but the Indian and other repayments also show a decrease of £246,000. The committee is aware that, as the whole of our Indian service, at least the whole of a large portion of that service, is borne by us in the main tenance of establishments, all arrangements are made in reference to it; but whereas the Indian Government is at liberty, under an arrangement very favourable to it in that respect, to throw back upon us any regiments it pleases without a moment's notice, the effect of that undoubtedly is that a reduction in the Indian establishment, which en tails an instant reduction in the Indian repayments, cannot be followed as rapidly by a reduction in the amounts charged in the estimates for the British army at home. Besides, it is important to call the attention of the house to ' the very heavy charges, and I think they are charges sus tained by sufficient authority, which we are undergoing for works for the navy. In 1865-6 they amounted to £528,000, but for 1866-7 to £893,000. The principal part of that augmentation, however, is due to the great exten sion of dock accommodation which took place on a debate in this house, and with an express, I might also say an eager, sanction from a committee of this house appointed to consider it. The Post-office department has also a large increase in expenditure. Its works last year were esti mated at £70,000, but they are estimated this year at £349,000. I mention that item with more satisfaction in the view that I am now taking, because I think we may regard the Post-office expenditure as partaking of the na ture of reproductive expenditure. (Hear, hear.) The miscellaneous estimates likewise have undergone an in- \ crease of £165,000, rising f rom £829,000 t o £994 , 000 . That increase is due to the circumstance that for several years our building votes have been more or less in arrear, but I do not think that there is anything unwarrantable or excessive in the proposals that are now made. The upshot of this is that the total demand for avosks for the navy, the revenue departments, and miscellaneous esti mates has risen from £1,427,000 to £2,236,000, showing an increase of no less than £809,000. (Hear, hear.) I now come to the estimate of the revenue for the year. We take the Customs at £21,400,000; the Excise, £19,750,000; stamps, £9,450,000 ; and here I may observe that there is hardly any branch of the revenue the growth of which is more satisfactory. Tho estimate for assessed taxes and land taxes is £3,400,000; and for income-tax, £5,700,000. Here I may observe that the income-tax being 4d. in the pound, you have £1,400,000 as the estimate of what a penny in the pound will produce, the additional £lOO,OOO being accounted for principally by taxes in arrear. The Post -office stands at £4,450,000, showing an increase of £200,000 upon the receipts of last year, and overtaking a large portion of the heavy charge that we are about to in cur for Post-office enlargements in London. The miscel laneous receipts, including the China indemnity, will stand at £3,100,000. The miscellaneous receipt is materially affected by the considerable sum of £500,000 which comes into it this year through debentures sent from New Zealand in liquidation of a portion of the debt of the colony to the mother country, which debentures it will be ourduty to ask the house to guarantee, not for its own sake—that is to say, not by way of entering into new engagements towards the colony. On the other hand, the China indemnity is a branch of revenue which is sinking, and must be expected to sink more. I think the estimate of it last year, if I remember right, was £450,000, but this year it is only .£250,000. The total estimated income of the year is £67,575,000 and the estimated charge of the year is £66,225,000, and the pro bable surplus of income over the charge is £1,350,000 There is no cause to be disappointed, I think,—when we consider the circumstances of the country to have been upon the whole favourable,—in the apparent promise of such a surplus as that, because it must be borne in mind that, when I say that the estimated income of the year is £ 67 ,575,000 we have had cut off from that income no less a sum th an £1 ,417,000, which was disposed of by the legis lation of last year, although it only tells upon the fig ures for 1866-7. Of th a t sum £950,000 is on ac co unt of th e in come-tax, £260,000 is owing to the reduction on fire insur ance duties, and £207,000 is attributed to the reduction of duty on tea, coming into operation for the whole 12 months. if we add these sums together it would appear that bu t s for the legislation of last year we s h ould have had t o dispose of a sum of between £2,700,000 and £2,800,000. (laser hear.) We now come to the disposal of thi s money; and ' here I shall have, under several heads, to tresp ass for some time on the attention of the committee. It is aware how important has become the subject of comm ercial treaties i n the view of the commercial cla sses of this country. Th e Chambers of Commerce in all our commercial towns have intimated the greatest anxiety that they should be formed. (Hear, hear.) Those treaties which have been formed of late years have been adjusted in such a man ner astoin volve none of the objections, either in pr i nc i p le o r in Pree - tics, 'which undoubtedly applied to ou r earliest a ttemp ts at the formation of c ommercial treaties. We have no hagg lin g about certain benefits which might be conferred upon our own country but which we will not confer un less the State with which we are dealing will confer certain benefi ts . on its subject s . these The character in which we appear in changes . our negotiations } as far as they have ever involved awn tariff, is simply this—we have become in more than one instance the Government of a foreign State to auxiliarie s to enlighten it more eas ily . to overcome the prejudices and to own people by exhibitin g s a the ignorance of its derived from the fulfilment of them the adv an t ag es to be to them, the fulfilment of promises which we hold same time most beneficialse promises being at the _ourselves. (Hear, hear.) Now I will not weary the cot i t t l t i ee on the subject of the French treaty as far as respe c t: portion which has been sufficiently explained on form at ooecas. ions, viz., its effect upon England. Butt should lik e the com mittee will not be sorry to hear, the effecteatteht:aset and treaty has had upon the export trade with Prance, be member the dread, the horror with which that treatvalisare received by considerable and influential portions - of th as e French nation. If ever, however, there was an emphatic disappointment in the best sense of unfavourabl e aug ur i es, it is that which is now presented by the remarkable re sults of the treaty in question. (Hear,hear.) No elaborate demonstration is necessary top rove that if the export trade Of France in French commoditie s has increased, the busi ness of the home market cannot possibly have fallen off. I am in a position to state what are the e xports of France in tissues of all ki n d s o f co tton goods, linen goods, woollen goods, and yarns of all three descriptions, and the general history of the matter—taking the year 1860, the year be • fore the operation of th e treaty, as a standard — I will pre sent to the committ ee . I n t h e year 1861, just as it happened with ourselves, the eff ec t o f the panic was in every in stance to produce a considerable diminution in the exports. In 1862 all began to riao again, and I willnOW give you the figures as compared with leBo ; and I state them in millions of francs. In cotton goods France exported 69,500,000 f. in 1860, and 93,750,0001. in 1864. In linen goods France ea ported 15,500,000 f. in 1860, a nd 24,500,000 f. in 1864 . woollen goods France exported 229,250, 000 f. in 1860, and 356,000,000 f. in 1864. In yarns,France exported 12,500,000 f. in 1860, and 43,000,000 f. in 1864. The total amount of these goods exported from France in 1860, immediately before the treaty, was 327,000,000 f., and after the end of i te nc s re l a 7 s , e o d o , o, H OO pe Of. ssi ( h H le e , a m r, a he s a t r iu .) p f T o h u e r y e e x a e s r t t h e e t e e m o E u n n g t l a r n o d s e more remarkable degree. In order to spare the time of th e house I will not give the details ; but these are the exports with respect to which great alarm prevailed in France. The exports to England of woollens, linens, cottons, yarns, metal goods, earthenware, salt, glass, and fish amounted in value to 58,500,000 f. in 1859, before the treaty ; and in 1864 they rose to 1 4 1,000,000 f. (Hear, hear.) Since the treaty with France we formed, through the energy of the depart ments of the Government and the able assistants which have been employed (1 include, especially, the diplomatic service, as well as the permanent Civil Service of home), an advantageous treaty with Turkey, which admits of a small increase of import duties to a uniform 8 per cent., but stipulates for a liberal reduction of the rate of export duty, and a further reduction of the transit duties. We also formed a treaty with Belgium in 1862, which insures to us all the advantages previously given to France, to gether with a deduction of pilotage, tonnage, and naviga tion dues. The treaty with Italy in 1863 secured to us the reductions given to France by the favoured nation clause, and a similar treaty with the Zollverein in 1864 gave to us the reductions given to France. A treaty of a more notable description has been concluded with Austria. That was of all other countries, perhaps, the most rigid in thepreserva tion of the protective system. I know not whether Russia could compete with herin that respect. Certainly, those two countries might be regarded as the last strongholds of the pure protective system ; but Austria has entirely abandoned her great tenacity for that system. While we own that that abandonment is beneficial to us, we maintain that it is in a far greater degree beneficial to herself. In effecting this result, the Chambers of Commerce in the north-east of tEonegalal;agdhtetr the people active part, and Mr. Alhuson did much sensible how cruPeelloypletheoyf Aust riawere im a p n e d ve t t o ish m tn a g ke them them selves by a rigid system of protection. The able agents of the Foreign -office and the Board of Tiede, Mr. Morier and Mr. Mallet, by the knowledge and skill which they brought to bear on the discussion of the matter, greatly contributed to the settlement of the question (hear, hear); and I am glad to mention a name, which I would more gladly mention if the bearer of it were now present in the house—Mr. Somerset Beaumont—who felt, not a personal but a most keen interest in the prosecution of this subject, and took a very active and beneficial part in promoting the proceedings connected with the Austrian treaty. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. member for Gateshead also laboured with Mr. Beaumont in the same cause, and I congratulate him on the result which has been achieved. The upshot of the Austrian treaty on the Austrian side is that the French standard has been adopted, and the Customs duty in Austria, after an early date, is not to exceed 25 per cent. ad rolorem on any description of British goods. That 25 per cent. in France and elsewhere is still a very serious obstacle, and I think the time has arrived, after the expe rience we have had, when we may begin to ask ourselves whether or not our powerful neighbour France should not ' take a further onward step. (Hear, hear.) I am persuaded that matters will not rest here. We have found the benefit of the reduction of small duties to be quite equivalent to the reduction of great. Therefore, I speak of the 25 per cent. with satisfaction only in reference to what has gone before, and not in reference to what will follow. Here I have to mention two changes which have to be made in our tariff, which we were the more readily induced to make because they greatly assisted the Austrian Govern ment in concluding the important national engagement entered into. We propose to reduce the duty on timber, and to equalise the duty on wine in bottle to the duty of wine in wood. The duty on timber is a very low duty, and that is the best thing that can be stated in its favour. In any other point of view the duty on timber is as bad a duty as can be. It is a protective duty on a raw material of which this country stands in great want, and which is of vast bulk, and the imposition of the duty, which has the effect to accumulate the cost, is the very essence and quintessence of political folly. The consumption of timber in this country is remarkable. In 1811 the consumption of timber amounted to 417,000 loads. At that time the duties were further raised, and in 1814 the consumption fell as low as to 218,000 loads. However, the growing wealth of the country brought about a gradual increase, and I will pass over a long period of years to 1841, from which time, the house will observe, that every reduction of duty has been answered by more than a corresponding increase in the use of this essential material. In 1841 the duty on foreign timber was reduced from 565. 6d. to 31s. 6d., and in colo nial timber from lls. 6d. to is. Consequently, as a rule, the reduction only took effect in October, 1842, but in 1843 the consumption was 1,298,000 loads. In 1850 the duty on foreign timber was further reduced from 15s. 6d. to 7s. 6d., and on deals from 20s. t o 10 s ., an d t h e consequence was that, from a consumption of 1,723,000 loads in 1850, the consumption rose in 1859 to 2,408,000 loads. In 1860 we went to work, and further reduced the duty from 10s. to 25., and from 7s. 6d. to ls. At that time a highly respectable gentleman from the colonies, who represented Launceston, predicted that ruin would come over the timber industry of New Brunswick; but the consumption, which in 1859 was 2,408,000 loads, increased in 1865 to 3,700,000 loads, or to 16 times the consumption of 1814. The whole revenue from timber is as follows for the entire year :—£300,000 from various descriptions of wood goods, and t£7,000 in wood manufactured into the form of ships, being a total of £307,000. I shall reckon the whole of that as loss, because we propose that the repeal shall date back from the Ist of April, 1866. With respect to wines in bottle—the other subject I have to touch on in connection with the Austrian Treaty—the case stands thus,—we charge for wine in wood by one or two rates. Supposing it is real wine, and does not exceed a certain strength—for if it does it is charged as spirits, but if it is under 26 degrees the charge is ls. a gallon. When the alcoholic test is adopted it must be applied in great frequency and to every parcel of goods, and thus great injury is entailed on the ar ticle. Wines imported in bottle being for the most part of a more expensive character, it was thought best, when these duties were fixed a few years ago, to levy a duty of 2s 6d upon all bottled wines, while wines in wood were charged according to their strength. Now, however, we are able to work the system with much greater accuracy, and the alcoholic test is much more rarely applied. Representations have been addressed to us by the Austrian Government, and I am bound to say by the French Government also ; and one piece of evidence, of a kind almost peculiar in history, has been forwarded - a document addressed to myself by a large number of Burgundian winegrowers, a document which I received with very great pleasure, as a sign of the increasing sense that is felt of the common interest of the two countries in matters of this kind—(cheers)—and from these statements we find, and there is no reason to doubt their perfect accuracy, that there is great deal of wine which will import safely in bottle which it is very difficult to import securely in wood. This is the case with many Hungarian, as well as with Burgundian wines ; and there ' fore, according to the request of the Austrian Government, we propose to equalize the duties on wines in bottle with those which are now paid upon wines in wood. That is to say, they shall be charged according totheir strength, 2s 6d per gallon if over 26 degrees of alcohol, and ls. if they do not exceed that standard. The effect of that change would be a total loss of £71,000, without any allowance for re covery ; or, with some allowance for recovery and also for the portion of the year that has passed, a loss of £58,000. This I have to add to the debtor side of the account, to be set against the surplus. I have done with the subject of trea ties for the present ; and there are three changes which I propose to make, apart from any treaty duties. We propose to remove the duty on pepper. (Laughter.) The fate of pep per might well excite the commiseration of any humane man. Theduty, which it is difficult to defend, has often stood to be ab o li s h ed, b ut when it came to the last moment there has always been some more bulky and important neigh bour to thrust it out of the way, and the consideration of the subject has lain over till this year, when there happens to be a moderate surplus, which does not admit of the duty upon malt or any other great subject being satisfactorily entertained. The present, therefore, appears to be a good occasion when, w ith out exciting feelings of jealousy in the agriculturist or any ot h er class of the community, w e can afford to do j us ti ce to pepper. The case is a hard ' one, and n for this reason- all the spices and condiments in which the wealthier classes have an exclusive interest have been long set free from duty. B u t pepper is a condiment common to all classes of the community—and, though I cannot say whether this is so or not, I am t o ld that it is largely con sumed in Ireland. (Much laughter and cheering.) It is a commodity that can well b 4 dispensed with by the wealthy c l a sses, and even by those portions of the labouring com munity that partake largely of animal food, but is really very useful and very necessary to those whose diet consists in a much larger degree of animal food. (Cheers.) Another very strong reason for the abolition of the duty is . that pepper is abominably adulterated. (ear.)anAder and degree, ulterattonof food, I am afraid, is, in a very special H manner an English vice. I doubt that i n any other countryin the world the same amount of adulteration o is violently stimulated whenever th place—(hear)—but the proportion e o r f at t e ha o t f a d d n u t l y te , ration duty on pepper is not less than 200 per cen propor tioned to the short price of the article, is very hi. t is T /a w e is 3 d , 1 3 2 1 4 d, 0 . , o o o r , 8 3 ay d ,. the T i d ie ut r y ev s e too na d e a fr t o 6 m d. t w he he a n rt t ie h l e e p o r f i p ce ep w pe a r s and deducting .£12,000 for the tenth of the financial year, I ao su bjec t rteouroh ed financial deal ,but wh which I with i in that the ne t l oss to be £112,000, which is to be added to the it ems I have already mentioned. Now I come to unwilling time, i t m o e, leave neither theolly s t a un t; which,amat h r esou a rc t es ee n n o c r le o st t v h e and ercons e i ff d e e c r t a u t al considerations enable which, I hope, some day may be brought within our power —I mean a portion of th although I admit that greatantuditaffiriesc uponities would o o c u o l m d o p t: oe present t th (Hear, em hear.) Ido not hesitate to practice —a great d' • that I think in principle—. t i h n e locomotion of luxury and pleasure and that which t se w l e v e e n s distinction should be drawn, be is of necessity. Ido not enter into the question of how far we 04 dietieguieh between them, but to a considerable ex. tent our system does Actually distinguish between them. The house, perhaps, will be surprised to know that the , revenue which we derive from locomotion in all its forms is not less than £1,600,000. Of that sum the moiety, or £852,000, is the portion of assessed taxes which I consider fairly due to locomotion, that is to say, derived from taxes upon horses, taxes upon carriages, and taxes upon the pro portion of men -servants connected with them. With that amount of £852,000, and also with the revenue of £459,000 derivable from railways, I do not propose in any manner to interfere. The first arises from a description of charge that may, I think, fairly be retained on our statute book, _ _ at any rate for the present ; and the revenue derived from railways is, in my judgment, a revenue which Parliament would never think of surrendering, unless it were in con nection with some comprehensive arrangement for secur ing benefits to the public. (Hear, hear.) This, it is quite plain, we are not at present in a condition to entertain. The house is aware that a commission,composed of very able and very distinguished men, was appointed more than a twelve month ago to examine into the general condition of the railway system, and how far it might be possible, by such means as were defined in the instrument appointing the Commission, to improve our railway system in the direc tion of general accommodation of the public, and particu larly of goods traffic. It is plain that we must adjourn any examination of that subject until the Commission has concluded its labours, which I hope, and am given to understand, will be in the course of the present year. There are, however, subjects similar in character which I think may well engage our attention, and upon which such slight remissions of duty as we are in a position to make will be attended with great advantage. We derive from post horses and carriages, including all descriptions of car riages in London and elsewhere, £266,000, and from public conveyance £142,000, including all descriptions, whether stage coaches, waggons supposed to travel under four miles an hour in the country, or omnibuses, which form so conspicuous a feature in the streets of London, andwhich are becoming from year to year instruments of almost in dispensable use to the enormous number not only of the middle and lower middle, but even, in the strictest sense, of the labouring classes of the community. The proposals therefore which I have to make relative to the tax on omnibuses and all public stage carriages relate not only to the comfort and advantage of the labouring classesin great towns, but in another point of view tend to diminish the very injurious effect which the severity of the duty exer cises in restricting rural accommodation—(cheers)—more particularly accommodation in connection with railway stations. (Cheers.) The present tax is estimated to amount tono less than from 9 to 11 per cent. on the gross receipts of the London General Omnibus Company and other companies of a like description. And when one considers the relation which gross receipts bear to net, and what a very large proportion of gloss receipts is swallowed up in payment of necessary expenses, it must be admitted that such a duty imposes a very heavy burden on this description of trade. I do not dwell on what relates to the railway stations, because every gentleman who resides in the country will, I am sure, be familiar with that matter from personal experience. But the manner in which the working classes in the large towns are affected is very much as follows :—A continuous pro cess is going on, unobserved, but steadily from day to day, by which the value of land in the limited areas about the centre of great cities is rising in a proportion hardly credible, though proved by experience. The statistics, if produced, would astonish those who have never attended to the point, and the result is this—a continual transfer of premises in central situations from residential to business purposes. The wealthier class of residents, thus dispos sessed, disappear, for their pleasure, while the labouring class—and that in a considerable proportion—cannot afford to pay the increased rent and go out to live at greater dis tances from town. It is absolutely necessary, however, that their labour should still be performed in town, and ac cordingly it is of the greatest importance that they should have cheap conveyance. (Hear.) Hence the tax on loco motion, considered as a tax on the labouring part of the community, is in the severest and crudest sense a tax on the raw material of industry. For nothing more materially corresponds with a tax on the raw material of industry than a tax affecting the sinews and muscles of the labour ing man; and if he is obliged to spend those sinews and muscles in travelling to and fro, he spends them upon that which brings him in no wages, instead of spending them in reproducing labour. (Hear.) I hope I have satisfied the house that it is right to deal with these questions. (Hear.) We propose to leave the licenses on these carriages as at present. We cannot offer a thoroughly searching solution of the whole question at present, but we think we can re lieve the burdensome part of the duty which is calculated on a mileage. The present duty is id. per mile, and that we propose to reduce to fd. per mile. (Cheers, and " Why not repeal it altogether ?") There would be considerable diffi culty in doing that. The house will please to recollect that though there are, as I have described, strong reasons for modifying this duty, it cannot be separated altogether from other duties—from the duty on hackney carriages for instance, which we are not able consistently with the plans of the Government, to relieve ; it cannot be separated from the consideration that in a very great number of cases these carriages are in direct competition with the short local traffic of railways in the neighbourhood of large towns, on which you levy without compensation a tax of five per cent. on their gross receipts. The total income from this source, with full duty, would be£l3o,ooofor the year. The duty can only be reduced on the 2d of July next, when the arrangements are made for the quarter and licenses are is sued. Thereduction will not in this case take place from the date of the resolutions passed by the house; an Act of Parliament will be necessary for that purpose. I have said that I do not propose to interfere with the hack ney carriage duty, because the receipts from that tax are of a peculiar character, and may be considered as some compensation made by the metropolis for a great outlay in the matter of its comfort and advantage. But the post horse duty applies all over the country. The duties are now regulated by a scale varying with the number of horses and carriages possessed, and are so framed as to bear hardly on the smaller as compared with the larger proprietors. One horse or one carriage pays per annum £7 10s.; two horses or two carriages just double ; four horses or three carriages, £2O ; eight horses or six carriages, £3O. If you will compare £7 10s. for one horse or one carriage with £3O for eight horses or six carriages, you will see how the scale is framed to bear heavily on the small as compared with the large proprietor. I propose to reduce the rates below the £3O rate so as to correspond as nearly as possible with the higher rates—viz., one horse or one carriage will be charged £5; three horses or two carriages will be charged £lO, and so that the small owner, the man who drives his own fly, will be placed, as nearly as the nature of things will admit, on an equality with the larger capitalist, with whom he competes. The estimated loss from that source (with allpwance of 10 per cent. for increase in traffic) will be £20,000 ; or £16,000 in 1866-7, and £4,000 in 1867-8. The committee will see that we have now disposed of about £562,000 out of £1,350,000. I now pass to a subject of an entirely different description from those on which I have touched—having this only in com mon with them, it would dispose of a large portion of the remainder of the surplus, and it is undoubtedly a very im portant financial arrangement. Before, however, going to that subject, I shouldstate that I shall submit resolutions to give effect to all the changes which I have mentioned; and also for renewing the income tax at 4d. per pound, and for continuing the tea duty. But the proposal I have now to make, and which I hope will receive the sanction of the house, will most conveniently and naturally form the sub ject of a separate measure ; though it is one which I am anxious to prosecute as speedily as possible. The question I am about to call the attention of the house to is connected with an item which I omitted from the retrospective part of my statement. It relates to the condition and move ment of our National Debt. (Hear, hear.) I will first give to the Committee what has actually been done with respect to the reduction of the National Debt in the year. The amount paid off in the year 1865-6 consisted of— 1. Exchequer Bonds £1,000,000, exchanged by reissue. 2. Exchequer Bills paid in for re- venue ... ..£783,000 Purchased with surplus revenue 877,000 £2,555,000 Sent in at the exchan ges 895,000 3. Cancelled by Land-tax ... 4. Stock purchased with surplus re- 59,000 venue .. 5. Capital redeemed in Terminable •.• 1,395,000 ... ... 1,620,000 Annuities Total ... £5,629,000 A sum of £450,000 was raised for fortifications, and there fore the real reduction of the National Debt in 1865-6 was £5,179,000. (Hear, hear.) The next statement I have to make to the Committee relates to the Unfunded Debt. Great changes have taken place with regard to our Unfunded Debt. Part of it consists of Exchequer Bonds, which are not seri ously affected by the extraordinarily rapid and frequent fluctuations which, under the present, I think, wise admi nistration of its affairs by the Bank of England, continually attend the conditions of the money market. But it is quite possible that in a country and at a period where the cur rent rate of interest on commercial paper for short terms with 90 or 120 days to run, or perhaps six months, is run ning up and down two, three, four, or five times a year, from 3 to 8 or 9 per cent., it is almost impossible to make any large portion of these Government securities live in the market, unless you choose to adopt a course which I think unwise—to give a high rate of interest upon them. That would be a very wasteful proceeding, and the alternative adopted is to encourage a gradual absorption of them. The total Unfunded Debt of the United Kingdom in 1815-16 was £44,727,000. Just before the Russian war, on Jan. 5, 1854, it was £16,024,000; on March 31, 1857, it was £27,989,000; in 1859, £18,277,000; but that was by funding, and one object of reduction by a gradual process is to get rid of the necessity of funding, which is a very expensive operation, generally performed at unfavourable periods. In 1866 the Unfunded Debt, which in 1859 was £18,277,000, was re duced to £8,267,000, consisting of about two-thirds, or £5,887,000 in bills, and one-third, or £2,300,000 in bondt. Now, with respect to the grave and serious subject of the National Debt, I hope the committee will not think I take undue liberty in calling their serious attention to it. It is a subject as to which it may be difficult to say why it should be introduced to the notice of the house at one mo ment rather than another; but undoubtedly I am con vinced, with my now long experience of the financial de partment, that the time has come when it is fitting that Par liament should bestow a greater degree of attention than THE SON, LONDON, FRIDAY IiVENING, MAY 4, 1808. has hitherto been bestowed on the question of the state and movement of the National Debt. (Hear, hear.) I entirely concur in the opinion expressed by the hon. member for Westminster, whose absence on this occasion I deeply re gret, arising as it does from severe indisposition; I entirely concur in the doctrine he laid down that the first duty of Parliament 25 years ago was to direct its attention to the thoroughly unsound and rotten state of our fiscal system, and its injurious effect in restrictions on industry and the retardation of the growth of wealth. It would then have been a great mistake if, instead of relieving industry and the springs of commerce, we had applied our resources to the reduction of the National Debt. But now we have got through a great part of that work. There are taxes which still remain, and which we are desirous to reduce; but now that we have advanced so far in the work of reform in our system of taxation, I think the time has come when we ought seriously to consider the state and movement of the National Debt. Besides the speech of my hon. friend there have been other indications, which I for one have noticed with great satisfaction, and which tend, I think, to show that I am not speaking lightly or gratuitously when I sub mit to the committee that the time has arrived for dealing with this question. Why, sir, the condition of the . public credit, as measured by the price of the funds, is in itself a matter which might well attract the attention of Parliament. It is not that the public credit properlyunderstood is weaker than it ever was ; on the contrary, I believe there never was a period when it was stronger; but the rising rates of profit upon money must necessarily raise, and I think have already raised, but moderately, the rate of interest as repre sented by the price of the funds. At the same time, I be lieve it will be wise and politic on the part of Parliament, with a view to exigencies which are not likely or proximate but which are possible, to consider the present state of the public credit measured by the state of the funds, and to con sider what would be our position if, under any overruling circumstances of honour or duty, we are obliged to go to market and borrow. There are several reasons which lead me to think that this is a most propertime to open this ques tion. One is that next year, 1867, we are to receive another large or at least a considerable falling in of Terminable An nuities. Nearly £600,000 of those Annuities will fall in, and I think it well becomes Parliament to consider what substi tute it will provide for that annual change, with the view of furthering the beneficial process of operating on the debt. Nor can I fail to mention that the most powerful organs of opinion, with no possible object, it seems to me, but that of an enlightened zeal for the public good, have been labouring to draw the attention of the public mind to this great sub ject, and have I think materially prepared the way for the Government to submit to Parliament a proposal respecting it. Now, sir, of course the movement of the National Debt can easily be set forth in the most intelligible form to the community. That debt consists of three items, but for the presentpurpose it is not necessary that I should distinguish one from the other, which would only perplex that view of the total to which I wish to fasten the attention of the committee. These three items are—first of all the Funded or Permanent Debt, including the debt to the Bank of England, though that is not precisely a funded debt, and represented by the ca pit a l sum ; secondly, the Unf u n d ed Debt, of which I have already spoken ; and, thirdly, the outstanding capital value involved in Terminable Annuities that may still exist. Placing these three items of debt to gether, the total of the National Debt, which is commonly supposed at the close of the great war to have been £800,000,000, though not including all these items, had turned £900,000,000 of money, the actual figures being £902,264,000. Of course I do not include in that any allow ance for the Sinking Fund, which !exclude altogether, as I speak only of the real obligation of the country. In 1830 that total had been brought down to £842,405,000. A good deal had been done in that interval, as will be seen, forthe reduction of the debt, but little had been done for the libe ration of the industry of the country. A beginning might have been made, but if it was commenced it was a commence ment only. In 1840 the debt had fallen to £837,848,000 or by a very small sum—viz., 41 millions; but it must be recollected that during that interval a loan of 20 millions had been contracted for the emancipation of the negroes in the West Indies. Virtually, therefore, the reduction in that period amounted to nearly 25 millions. The lowest point was reached on the sth of January, 1854. It then stood at £800,515,000. Then came the Russian war, and Parliament resolved to meet the expenses of that war in great part by taxes immediately imposed on the people ; consequently the increase of debt was much less rapid than it would otherwise have been, and much less rapid than it must undoubtedly be if ever unfortunately this country should become involved in a prolonged war. On the 31st of M arc h, 1857, the debt had risen to £831,722,000 ; on 31st of March, 1859, it was £823,934,000 ; and on March 31, 1866, it was £798,909,000. (Cheers.) That is nominally a point somewhat lowerthan it has stood at before ; but it must be remembered that we have can celled two minor sinking fund stocks which formerly formed part of the nominal capital, so that, in fact, we may say with substantial accuracy, for it is not necessary to be par ticular to a million or a million and a half, it has now just reached the point at which we have effaced the results of the Crimean war, and the debt thus stands at the very place which it occupied at the commencement of the year 1854. It is not necessary to observe that there aro several sums not very material in themselves—we are indebted to the savings banks in the sum of about £3,000,000, and on the other hand we have moneys lent on perfectly good se cut ity on bonds to drainage commissioners and other bodies, that amount to about £10,000,000, but that is not an amount that we need take into view in dealing with this enormous accumulation of the national obligations. .G 99,000,000, then, is, in round numbers, the present capital debt. Now, let us observe the rates at which we have operated upon the debt. From 1815 to 1854 there were nearly 40 years of the most profound peace ever known, and that, therefore, was the very period in which it was most desirable for us to deal efficiently with thisdebt, if we were to place ourselves in a position to look at war as a necessity in the face again. Well, sir, I have stated what was then done. The rate of decrease per annum at that period was £2,6o9,ooo—un doubtedly a very trivial sum when we consider the enormous amount of what has to be achieved. In the three years and a quarter from the sth of January, 1854, to the 31st of March, 1857, the rate of increase was nearly £10,000,000 per annum, in exact figures £9,602,000. From 1857 to 1866 the total rate of decrease has been some what better, but still far below what it ought to have been, —viz., £3,646,000. (Hear, hear.) Now, I wish to call the attention of the committee to this, that what we must ex pect is, that whereas two or three millions a year have re presented the average of our operations in time of peace— I do not believe if we take the whole years of peace since 1815 that the average operation would reach three millions —if ever you become involved in any great and protracted war, you must expct, not immediately, but after a year or two of war, to see the debt grow at about ten times the rate at which you reduce it in time of peace. (Hear.) Now, sir, the next question I come to consider is whether that is a satisfactory state of things for the country ; but I cannot proceed further on that subject without asking the com mittee to observe what has taken place in other countries. The chapter of National Debts is assuming, I think, a painful and a baleful prominence as a social and political fact of modern experience. (Hear.) I do not know whether the house is aware to what extent this mischievous and injurious process is going on, but I will refer first to what I do not hesitate to declare I contemplate with the least anxiety, and that is the debt of the United States. The debt of the United States is in itself something wonderful —wonderful as the creation of four years, strictly of four years, and no more, and yet amounting to nearly 3,000 million dollars, or £600,000,000, and the rate of growth of the debt in the last year exceeded, I think, £200,000,000. That is a wonderful debt, and its charge is enormous. It is not possible, in the present state of the financial arrange ments of that country,to ascertain with precision, but I be lieve lam not wrong in saying that the charge of that debt is considerably heavier than ours, though the capital is less. (Hear, hear.) The smallest sum at which I can estimate the charge is 31 or 32 millions sterling ; and if upon the back of that sum wo lay the necessary cost of raising the revenue, which in America is much heavier than it is here, I do not think the effective amount of taxa- tion incumbent upon the nation at this time in consequence of the Northern debt (I do not include one farthing of the Southern debt) cannot be taken at less than nearly 35 mil lions sterling per annum. Well, now, looking at these figures, a man would be struck with something like despair ; but if we look at the position of the country which has to bear the burden I must confess that I think the future of America, as far as finance is concerned—. political emblems are not now in question —will not be attended with any embarrassment. I do not believe that that debt will constitute any difficulty for the American people. (Cheers.) I am confident that if they show with respect to finance any portion of that extraor dinary resolution which on both sides alike they mani fested during the war, and of that equally remarkable reso lution with which, on the return of peace, they have brought their monstrous and gigantic establishments within moderate bounds—(hear, hear)-1 won't say that this debt, according to an expression which was once fashionable in this eountry, will be a fleabite—(a laugh)—but that in a moderate time it will be brought within very small limits, and may, even within the lifetime of persons now living, be effaced altogether. (Hear, hear.) At this moment America is, I believe, paying war taxes, and the amount of the re venue of the United States is not less, I apprehend, than about 80 millions of money, the largest sum ever raised in any country for the purpose of a central Government. The estimated surplus is from 20 to 30 millions sterling a year, and I believe at present only about 10 millions of their taxation are menaced by the natural impatience of the people. with respect to some of the taxes that have been imposed. Mr. M'Culloch, the Finance Minister of that country, strongly urges the policy of reducing the debt, and I am quite certain that from this side of the water we shall send him a hearty expression of good wishes for his success, both on account of our i n t erest i n the well- b e i ng o f a friendly nation, and because it may be hoped that the example of America will react beneficially on this country. (Cheers.) But have gentlemen who sit here paid attention to the stealthy manner in w hi c h b orrowing is becom i ng th e stand ing vice of almost every Government in Europe? I do not speak now with regard to that uneasy state of things in which the Continent is at this moment liable to be in volved.' We hope that neither unrestrained ambition nor neglect of the rules of prudence will deprive Europe of the Inestimable blessings of peace. (Cheers.) But I ash the house to consider how enormously important the prac tice of the Governments of Europe with regard to the con traction of debt is becoming. I have here the National Debts of nine countries in Europe, estimated from the most trustworthy data I could obtain. I find that, with the ex ception of Holland's, there is not one of these that has not been virtually contracted in the last half century, and by far the larger of them has been contracted during the last 20 years—a time of peace ; for if there has been any war expenditure added to them during that time it is insignifi cant in amount. Holland, I find, acts prudently, and re duces her debt, while the finances of Prussia are a model of good administration, for Prussia's debt stands at £43,000,000, and Holland's at £85,000,000. Russia's debt is estimated at £279,000,000, and Austria's at £316,000,000. The debt of France is not a capital debt, and it is difficult to estimate it with accuracy. It is made up of Rentes of 23 years' purchase, and, as nearly as possible, it amounts to £400,000,000. It is the largest of these debts, yet, because of the immense resources of the country, and the energy and wonderful thriftiness of its people, one need, perhaps, feel less anxiety for its future security and strength than for the stability of any other European Government. Italy's debt stands at £152,000,000, and it is increasing with por tentous strides. The debt of Spain amounts to £145,000,000; Portugal's is estimated at £33,000,000; and the debt of Turkey, which I believe to be entirely a modern institution, principally created since the Crimean war, amounts to £51,000,000. The great bulk of these debts, amounting together to 1,500 millions, have accumulated in a time of peace, and have not been thrown upon the several countries during a struggle for life. I will not trouble the Committee with details of their rate of increase; but, omitting Holland, which has decreased its debt, and omitting Prussia, which does not habitually increase it, and omitting Spain also, which keeps its debt nearly at an equilibrium (laughter), we have six of the nine countries who have managed to increase their debts during a time of peace at the annual rate of £61,000,000 sterling. And this isgrowing, for, like other bad habits, debt-making has a tendency to spread. Europe should therefore know the increase, and look at it from the right point of view. It is spending in a time of peace the resources of war ; it is exactly as if in a year of good harvest the country spent the whole of that good har vest, and half another harvest beside ; and it should be re membered that if peace be preserved in Europe for the rest of the century, the debts of these nine countries at the present rates of increase would amount to nearly £4,000,000,000. These are really portentous circumstances. It is not merely the money engagements ; that is comparatively a little matter. It is not only a very great mischief that 60 or 70 millions should be drawn away from useful profitable purposes for what is even worse than unproductive expendi ture, but it is an enormous political and social difficulty which is being gradually stored up by this most improvident course. There is nothing so insidious, at least we know of nothing so insidious, as financial difficulty. It approaches you in the first moment with smiles and caresses. The ex pedient of borrowing appears at the first temptation to be open to no objection whatever. It is like what the poet described in the lines : " Parva metu primo ; mox sese attollit in auras, Ingrediturque solo, et caput inter nubile condit." And it is more like that which one of the Greek tragedies de scribes of the cub of the lioness, which, having been incau tiously taken by the hunter to his home, is reared with his dogs and petted by his children ; it fawns upon every one while it remains a cub, but when it grows to its strength its meekness suddenly forsakes it, and, coming out in its terror, it deluges the whole house with the gore of its victims. It is so with financial difficulties. They begin with the most insinuating address, and grow so gradually that you are wont to put off the evil day of reckoning ; but you will nevertheless have to look it in the face some day, and that may be when the difficulties have become actually insurmountable. (Hear.) So much for other countries, and now let us look at our own. I must ask you to bear with me while I endeavour to point out what I take to be the true state of our own case. I address my request to the whole Committee, and especially to gentlemen op posite, and those who say, and say truly, that they are deeply interested in the land and fixed property of the country ; because I apprehend that if there be any special interest concerned in the subject I am about to consider it is the interest of the landed property. In the first place, then, let it be remembered that we are living in a commer cial era, the prospects of which it is almost impossible to ap preciate, from their magnitude. Every five years the rate of increase is continually shifting, and always shifting up wards. The liberation of industry, the progress of inven tion, the steady investigation of science, the improvement of social habits are all combining together to induce the conclusion that in the days of our childhood, when we thought the commerce of England was a wonderful thing, and that the commerce of the world was wonderful ; and when we had an idea that a century's development had brought about almost a mountain of transformation, the re sult was, in point of fact, nothing but an infant in the cradle. But it was an infant Hercules that has ever since been bursting its bonds; and, depend upon it, great as is the extension to which it has now reached, in all likelihood it will go on extending still more in the future. We are not prophets here ; but it is our duty, although we must refrain from dogmatising, to estimate probabilities as well as wo can, and, like wise men, permit ourselves to be guided by the balance of probability. During the next 20 or 30 years, then, or perhaps more, for I cannot pretend to name a time, we are to look for a still further development and extension of the commerce of this country, which is uow in the aggregate, I apprehend, at least three fold what it was five-and-twenty years ago. Well, tko population has been increasing at a less rate than five-and twenty per cent., while our commerce has been multiplied three times, and this we must fairly presume will go on. Now, the great agents of production are three--first, we have land and fixed capital; secondly, we have movable or transferable capital; and thirdly, we have labour. Let us consider, for it is most important, the relative position of these three agents. A race is going on between nations in industry and enterprise, and no doubt can exist as to what nation is at this moment foremost in the race. The people of the United Kingdom are by far the foremost. Their ex ternal commerce is, I apprehend, as great as that of the two countries which come next in order to it ; the United King dom, with its 30,000,000 people, is as great in commerce as France and America, with their 70,000,000 of people. That is an extraordinary fact. We have undoubtedly got the start in the race, and it behoves us to inquire what has given it to us. Doubtless we have great advantages ; our geographical position is a great advantage, so also is the character of the people. Both our geographical position and the character of our people are the same as they were a century ago ; and England then did not lead the trade of Europe. What, then, has given us the lead? Of course, there is an increasing cause in our accumulating capital, but the chief cause is the possession of our mineral trea , - sures. (Hear, hear.) The fact, not merely of the posses sion of coal, but of the possession of vast stores of coal under such 3ircumstances that we can raise it to the sur face at a lower price than any other country in the world. It is not the quantity of coal, but its production at a low price which has given us the start, and has caused the enormously rapid progress of the country, which from many other points of view might have been expected to make less rapid progress than it has ; because, after all, the very great treasure of nations—namely, their unoccu pied land—is a treasure which we possess, in our three kingdoms, in a much smaller degree than almost every other European country. It is, then, our possession of coal near what depends on coal that has given us this extraordinary pre-eminence in commerce and industry. Well, it has often been a suhject of very interesting dis cussion as to whether we may look upon our stores of coal as being practically inexhaustible ; and in the condition in which our commerce was 20 or 30 years ago it would have been perfectly reasonable to answer that question in the affirmative, and assume that our coal was inex haustible. But circumstances have greatly changed the rate of increase in our production and consumption of coal ; indeed, the consumption has become such that the minds of the greatest among our scientific authorities have been turned to the question, and the inquiry has been raised as to what will be the influence on our supply if our consumption continue to increase, and I venture to express the opinion that it probably will continue. But for the present argument I ask you to consider this :—Assuming for the moment that we shall not be able to continue for many generations to produce coal at prices cheaper than other countries, what will happen ? Is it not enough to say that the expenses incurred in maintaining veatilation, keeping down the temperature, and such matters, will be ecomised by new inventions and contrivances. Those new inventions and contrivances there may be ; but they won't give us a pre-eminenco over other countries, because other countries will be able to make use of them as well as ourselves. (Hear, hear.) In the same way, there is no use in saying that a substitute will be found for coal. No doubt there are men of high authority who think that such a substitute will be found, though the matter is ono on which there is a difference of opinion. But supposing that a substitute will be found, it will not be peculiar to Eng land. I think it is clear that at whatever time—whether 50 or 100 or any other number of years hence—we may cease to be able to raise coal at a lower price than other countries our relative position towards other nations must be lost ; but of the question of coal against coal there can bo no doubt as to how the case stands. There is another country, not only as rich in mineral wealth as ourselves, but with a coal surface 37 times greater than the coal surface of this country—l allude to the United States of America ; and though most of the coal there contains so large an amount of anthracite that it is not fit for steam or for smelting purposes, to domestic purposes it is capable of being adapted. Suppose, then, that pre-emi nence in the cheap production of coal should be carried from us away across the Atlantic, what will happen ? There will be a decline of rents, a decline of profits, a decline of wages. There will be precisely the reverse of what we have all seen taking place within our time—an increase of rents, an increase of profits, an increase of wages. And when rents, profits, and wages decline, what will the owners do ? Those who receive wages, finding that wages are lower here than across the Atlantic, will migrate ; and the holders of movable property, finding that there is a wider and mere profitable field for their capital elsewhere, will send their capital abroad. What will the owners of rents do? It appears to me that they cannot migrate. Personally they may do so, but that from which they derive their income cannot migrate. The upshot will be that the charge of the National Debt, which is now borne in full on property, profits, and rents, will remain as a permanent mortgage on the lands, houses, and works of the country." I wish I could convey to the house the impression which the consideration of this subject makes on my own mind, and I trust 1 take no unworthy view of it. Igo upon the results arrived at by able and skilful statisticians who, by the authority of the Government, have made inquiries into the matter. Mr.Hulmo estimates the quantity of coal in the United Kingdom within 4,000 feet of the surface at 83,000 million tons. He states that in 1854 the consumption was 64,000,000 ; in 1861 it was 86,000,000. Based on these numbers the computed annual rate of growth in the con sumption is 3.7 per cent. Now, not taking it at so much as 3'7, but taking it at 3.5 per cent., this would give the annual consumption in 1961 as 2,607 millions of tons ; and by 1970, 104 years from this time, the consumption will have reached 130,000 million tons, or a greater quantity than all the coal now known to be available in Great Britain within 4,000 feet of the surface. I believe that long before we reach that consumption the causes will be found in operation from which an increase in price will follow. Mr. Jevons, whose statistics my hon. friend the member for Westminster has quoted, has gone very fully and carefully into the facts, and he holds a similar opinion in respect to our coal supply to that which I have just stated. Hon. members remember the statment made two years ago by Sir William Armstrong. Sir John Herschel agreed with Mr. Jevons, as I believe does Dr. Percy also. I myself have have had an opportunity of communicating with my dis tinguished friend Sir Roderick Murchison on the subject. He for years has believed the matter to be one of the very gravest order, and one demanding our most earnest consi deration. In vain would it be to think of stopping the con sumption of coal in this country ; in vain would it be to think of diminishing that consumption by the imposition of a tax; and it would be more vain still to think of prohibit ing the exportation. LAn hon .member expressed dissent.] I only expressed my own opinion ; I shall not enter into that matter now—(hear, hear) —I merely wish to re mark that, even could we limit the consumption of coal, 1 think it is perfectly obvious that we cannot continue to supply coal in unlimited quantities at the present low prices for an unlimited time,—or, say, for one or two centuries. In the face of such a state of things in the future we ought to make preparations for it, and the way to do that is by using moderate and reasonable efforts to rid ourselves of our encumbrances. (Hear, hear.) As those who are to come after us may have to encounter difficulties of which we have no practical knowledge, we ought not to hand down to them in their worst form difficulties which it is in our power to alleviate. (Hear.) Should we not now, in the time of our wealth and prosperity, reduce our great mortgage debt? I will tell the house how I propose we should do that. There are two modes —and, as far as I know, practically, only two—of operating permanently on this great mass of debt. First, you can do it by the appli cation of surplus from year to year, when there is a surplus; but though by the favour of Providence those surpluses have come to us more liberally of late than they had usually done, you cannot depend on them, either in respect of amount or of their existence in a particular year. Another mode of operating on the debt with a view to its reduction is by the conversion of perpetual into terminable annuities. (Hear, hear.) Now, nothing happens with me more fre quently than to receive—sometimes from skilled and com petent persons—recommendations to introduce a scheme of this kind. But the difficulty of such a scheme is this— there are no purchasers of terminable annuities in the market. If you go into the city to sell terminable an nuities you must be prepared to part with them at a low price, or, to say the same thing in different terms, you must pay a large rate of interest. Consequently, as a large waste is involved in that business, no Minister has ever recommended it. (Hear, hear.) But we have resources —resources which we obtain through the medium of the funds we hold in deposit. These it is in our power to manipulate as we please. We at present hold £45,000,000 in all the different deposits, and this amount may be in creased in future years. A sum of £10,000,000 of those deposits has already been dealt with in this manner. There is a sum of £24,000,000 which stands in what is called the State Deposit Account as due to the trustees of the savings banks. Now, what the trustees of the savings banks have to expect from us is payment of every farthing we receive, with interest on it. They have nothing to do with the £24,000,000 as far as any mode of investment is concerned. If we lost every farthing of it we should have to pay them, nevertheless ; and if we made a good investment, that would be our affair, not theirs. In point of fact, the state of the case is this :—The assets of the National Debt Com missioners, who hold this money, are not equal in value to their obligations to the trustees. They fall- short of it to the amount of £3,000,000. Now, by converting the £24,000,000 into cash, we can pay up the £3,000,000 that is wanting and completely square up our account with the savings banks' trustees. If we do so, that amount will no longer be a part of the national obligations. I propose a double application, which I think I shall be able to make intelligible to the house. I will call the two operations A and B, for the purpose of distinguishing them. Operation A is this:—We take the £24,000,000 that stand on the State deposit account, and which now costs us £720,000 a year, as already provided for in the estimate laid upon the table. We convert that into annuities of 1885, thus increas ing the charge from £720,000 to £l,72s,ooo—that is te say, we add in round numbers £1,005,000 to the pre sent charge. That is the first operation, and I will state the financial, assuming it to be adopted by the house. In 1866-7, if the plan be adopted, we should pay one half-year's dividend upon the capital—that is, £360,000, and two quarterly dividends on the annuities, or £862,000, making a total charge, of £1,222,000, in lieu of the present interest of £720,000, thus imposing upon the year 1866-7 an additional charge of £502,000. In 1867-8 we should impose an additional burden, because there would be no interest on stock paid, but all the four quarters would have to be paid upon the dividends of terminable annuities in other years. Then in 1467-8 expires what is called the dead weight annuities, amounting to £586,000 a year, and one-half of that, or £293,000, would immediately become available, so that, in fact, the annual charge upon the year would be insignificant in amount. The total charge under taken by this change in all the years after the present year will, therefore, be £1,005,000. From this £586,000 relief will be deducted, leaving a net augmentation of charge of £119,000. If we are to operate in this way, that is not an immoderate item—(hear, hear) —but then there is the second operation—operation B. Gentlemen will observe that the effect of this plan must be considered upon the savings-banks funds and their commercial use on good banking principles as well as upon the National Debt. The savings-banks would he in receipt of £1,725,000 a year, and the question is, what are they to do with it ? The demands of the trustees have recently been very large, and if it should happen that the price of money should con tinue as high as it is now I have no doubt that these de mands will continue large, and that a very considerable portion of the £1,005,000 which will go annually to tho credit of the National Debt Commissioners will be absorbed in meeting the demands of the trustees. (Hear, hear.) But the demands of the trustees have never yet reached that amount. I do not mean when I say that they have never yet reached that amount to deny that they have done so under the influence of an extraordinary panic, but normally their demands do not reach that rate. It is probable that a por tion may be required for reinvestment, and the second part of the operation I propose is this—with respect to the dividends of the annuities now to be created, so much of these dividends as is not required to meet the demands of the savings-banks shall be reinvested from year to year. The extent of that portion and the amount of burden en tailed by it will differ very much according to the assumption made concerning the demands of the savings banks. For the sake of argument I will assume that they will amount to one-half, but I do so upon the supposition that you adopt the two operations, first the conversion of the £24,000,000, and secondly the reinvestment of spare dividends, and on the assumption, of course, that you will have that one-half to spare. The annual charge which begins at £419,000 would gradually mount until it reaches in 1885 the sum of £1,444,000, and the amount of public debt cancelled by that time would be 49 millions, or in round numbers 50 millions of money. Ido not say that that will be the pre cise effect, but it is more convenient to use the larger figures, which will express the general effect and be more easily understood. I may add, for the information of those who desire to be informed upon the point, that the calcu lation is based on the assumption that the Stock is pur chased at 88. By this means we should, I think, be acting prudently, wisely, and seriously in our treatment of the National Debt, and the obligation which is imposed upon us for its reduction. lam far from saying that this is the only measure which we can employ for reducing the National Debt ; but the reduction is as great, perhaps, as we shoull be justified in making under the circumstances. While completely fulfilling our obligations towards the trustees of the savings-banks, we should be making pro visions which would prevent our having to come into the market as sellers of funds—a thing which would be very undesirable. Independently, too, of surpluses in our revenue, we should be able to come into the market year by year as buyers of stock. I have nothing left me now, sir, but to give the sum of those operations which I have already stated in detail. (Cheers.) The amount of the surplus is £1,350,000. The remissions proposed are its follows: on wood, £307,000 ; on wine, £58,000; on pepper, £112,000; and on stage carriages and post horses, £85,000, giving a total of £562,000. To this has to be added £502,000, applied to the conversion of debt, swelling the total to £1,064,000, and re ducing the surplus to £286,000. The burden imposed by these changes in the year 1867-8 will amount to about a quarter of a million, about which I feel no scruple of con science whatever, because there has been no year in which, however bad the harvest, or however unfavourable the cir cumstances, the natural growth of the revenue has not amounted to a much larger sum. I would propose to pro ceed as follows—to take the resolutions concerning the changes in the duties, if, as I rather sanguinely anticipate, they do not excite objection, on Monday next. I purpose also to take the preliminary resolution relating to the Debt conversion on Monday next, on the assumption that it meets with the approval of the house, and does not tend to a long discussion. If there is a desire for discussion on that preliminary resolution, 1 should not think of going on with it CM Monday. And now, sir, I have to apologiao to vs vsoo. the house for the length of time daring which ! 114 , 4 Oet pied its attention. (Cheers.) It did appear to us that the time had arrived which was naturally and properly asso ciated with the financial arrangements of the year. I hope that I have not been unwittingly led to prophesy, or to do anything more than give such sketches of the future as will appear probable and present a fair and reasonable claim upon the attention of prudent men. Regarding the statements I have made I would not say - more than this: —The facts which I have laid before the house are grave facts, urgent, indeed, within certain limits. Although, Per haps, the proper business on these occasions is to announce the financial proposals for the year, it did seem right to us, actuated as we believed by grave and reasonable causes, to cast our glances into futurity and endeavour in some degree to meet those demands which might justly made upon us, so that when we cease to apply ourselves to our arduous tasks—and when I say " we," I do not mean the Government, but hon. members who now constitute this house—when we have passed away from active life, those who come after us may have reason to confess that in the provisions made for our own sons we have taken some thought of them, and that our conduct has not been such as to excite their regret or condemnation. (Cheers-) The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving certain formal resolutions calculated to give effect to the proposi tions indicated in the financial statement. Mr. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE wished to know whe ther the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to do aur thing with the tax on dogs. Mr. WARNER suggested that the omnibus mileage duty had better be removed entirely, as the farthing a milt, pro posed to be retained would only yield £30,000 a year to t he revenue. Mr. WATKIN pointed out the vexatious and unneces sary delays which were caused to continental travellers the examination of luggage at Dover and Paris. Sir F. KELLY said that as the Chancellor of the chequer had condemned the duty on timber because it I' 7o a charge upon the raw material he was encouraged to he? ) that he might see the expediency of substituting for the tax on malt a duty upon beer. Observations were also made by Mr. Hubbard on the proposed creation of new terminable annuities; and afte r a few remarks from Mr. Samuda, Mr. Henley, and 1 0 Ayrton, on other portions of the Budget, the Chancellor of the Exchequer briefly replied, and the Chairman 11/- ported progress. Some bills having been forwarded a stage, new Alta were ordered for the election of members for Nottingheall Windsor, and Northallerton, and the houso adjourned at twenty-five minutes past twelve o'clock. CO UkV T.ItY MANCHE S TER—THURSDAY. Our market this morning was thinly attended, and abet trade limited. Wheat and flour sold slowly at rece nt figures. Oats and oatmeal ruled firm. Beans and fel s brought an advance of is per quarter upon previous Pri ce°. Indian corn fully as dear. BIRMINGHAM—THURSDAY. At this day's market there was a thin supply of Er*- - ., wheat, and business was firm at a shade over late prlt ; In foreign a li m it e d t ra d e doing Barley firm, and 1 0 2 1: 0 qr advance on best sorts. Oat s little offering, and Prw:, tending upwards. Beans mo re i nqu i re d f or . Peas not quotably cheaper. BRIS T OL—THURSDAY. On our market to-day English wheat was in moderat ° supply, but last week's values were fully su pp or ted. 1 ; ° ;: reign inactive, but nearly the same i n price as of I ° Barley in good demand, and is to is 6d lower. For 0 0 1 which were scarce, there was a fair inq u i r y, at forP 2 values. Maize and beans at last week's values. BURY ST. EDMUND'S—WEDNESDAY. There was a good show of wheat at this market to which was principally taken off by millers at late ra te _ but the trade was inactive. In grinding barley the a fair inquiry, prices remaining with ou t alteration. date. beans, and peas met a dull sale at late rates. White wheat, 54s to 565; old red, 47s to 495; neviL. 64 41s to 45s , grinding barley, 35s to 38s ; P age ' s proliAe ley, 39s to 40s per qr. Averages :—Wheat, 937 qrs, at 42s 8d ; barley, 479 4 1 ' 8 "' at 35s 3d ; oats, 40 qrs, at 26s 9d. EDINBURGH-WEDNESDAY. Wheat on the top, 2s Od up average, Os 5d UP. Barley on the top, is Od up average, Os 4d up• Oats on the top, Os 6d up.... ...... average, Os 161 up .., Beans on the top, Os 6d up average , O s Ud do wn - Total supply and sales. Wheat 839 qrs sold 616 Barley 251 qrs sold 195 Oats 1653 qrs sold 89 5 Beans 209 qrs sold 7 4 Average prices. Wheat, 47s 7d 1 Oats, 29s lid Barley, 3Bs Od 1 Beans 47s 7d Town-made flour sells as follows :—White, 40s 0d ; at° superfine, 38s Od; superfine, 36s 6d; fine, 35s Od. GLASGOW—WEDNESDAY. A fair attendance to-day, but a limited business doing; Wheat firm, and fine qualities realised rec e nt rates. Fl. ° t was in rather b e tt er d eman d. B ar l e y una lt ere d i n Pr'"'" . Beans, peas, and oats were fully as dear. . Foreign Mail Packet List - ~-- MAILS DUE. Australia and New Zealand, via Southampton.„ May 29 , Ditto, via Marseilles May Brazil and Cape Verds, by British packet ...... MaY 4 ' Ditto, by French packet Cape of Goad Elope, Ascension, and St. Helena May 2 :: China. Penang, and Sing a p ore . v i a S out h ampton May ''' Ditto, via Marseill e s. M a y 14 Fmkland Islands Gibraltar, via Southampton BritY 3 ' India (Calcutta), and Ceylon, via Southampton... May 3 Ditto, via Marseilles ....... ......May 14 , India (Bombay), via South ampton MaY l'' Ditto, via Aarseitles Malta, Egypt, and Aden, via Southampton May 3 ' Ditto, via Marseilles MAY 8 1 Mauritius, via Southampt on Ditto, via MarseiLe 3. May 8 Newfoundland Portugal Ditto, by private ship to Lisbon . United States and British North America, by Bri tish packet Ditto. by United States packet, via Southamp ton ...... Ditto, via Cork Ditto, Di- Canadian packet. via Londonderry ..May 4 ',, West Coast of Af r i ca, M ade i ra, and Teneriffe „„ . May 1 ' West Indies and Pacific (except Bahamas and II onduras) ' May 14 Cuba and Mexico Bahamas. via New "York. May 3 ' Bermuda, via Halifax May 9' [ADVERTISEMENT.]—That the fearful annual mortality of 6 ,t 0 young children and delicate persons of all ages maY be arrested, if. instead of flying blindly to pills and medicines' which, though apparently relieving the patient, have ill reality no other tendency than that of increasing debility' and with it the d angor o f li fe, we were simply to study 11_,.A° to inc. - ease the vital force by i m p art i ng new an d p ur e Om': upon which the harmoniou s d eve l o p men t o f th e w h o le KW` depends, has been successfully proved by Du Barry's "I t o lids' and bile : A s ' Fo o d, th e R eva l en t a A ra bi ca, and its thousands of cures annually. It yields three times as La g i r easily assimilated nourishment as the best meat, Lud:f r children it is the best substitute for human milk. Routh, physician to the Samaritan Hospital for Women a !, Children—the best authority on bitch matters —in his adt n " able publication on Food, says—Amongst th e vege table sn b, .. stances, th which comes closest t o m ilk i n it s compo sition is, without doubt, Du Barry's Revalenta Arabica Food, e n % :sluing both phosphoric acid i n a b un d ance an d c hl o ride potassium ; it also includes casein, the same principle Rhiois is found in milk in its constituent parts. No wonder, there fore, that under its influ ence man y c hild ren a ff ec t e d wit h ' atrophy (wasting away of the body', and marked debt i t Y ; have completely recovered. I h ave g i ven it w i t h t h e K reateg: arivantage in such cases ; and ts, far as I may judge froin own experience, practice fully carries out what theory' from a knowledge of its composition, led us to auticipittel b. lu tins, fib, 2s 9d; 21b, 45 6d; 51b, 118; 121 b, 22s 24 ' 105.—Barry Du Barry and Co., No. 77, Regent-street, London; also Phillips, tea dealers, 8, King Wildam-scree: ; at 61, Gracecharch-stre• t; 4, Cheapside ; 49, Bishopsge t f. street Within ; 63, i5O, and 298, Oxford-street ; 330, strap," 54, Upper Baker-street ; 103, ottenham-court-road vv ; Upper-street, Islington, N.; Harvey, Notting-hills Clog Brothers, 65, High-street ; and Stubb s, Q ueen ' s-terrac e, °- John's-wood, London; and all respectable grocers and fie' ;amts.—Beware of snuriousimitations. Births. HOTHAM—On the 2d inst., at the British Consulate, Ca the wife of B. Hotharn, Esq., H.B.M.'s Consul, of a son. KEYL—On the 2d inst., at 33, Carlton-hill, St. Johd°' wood, Mrs. Keyl, of a son. SCOTT—On the Ist inst., at Dudley House, Clapham- Pa ll 4 the wife of Hubert Scott, Esq., of a daughter. TOZER—On the 2d inst., at Morningt,on Villas, Wanste s park, the wife of Edgar Tozer, Esq., of a son. Marriages. GLENNIE —BOND —On the 23 inst., at the parish church cf St. Mary, Stone, near Dartford, Kent, Walter O'Br ie t' fourth son of the Rev. J. D. Glennie, of Green - st ye t: Grosvenor-square, to Laura Henriett a , youngest daug4 ter of the late Lieut.-Colonel Hen r y B on d , o f the l u Hussars. JosEs—Worrox-- On the 3d inst., at All Souls', Langh a l: place, Charles Jones, Es q ., of Orleans Villas, Twick e ham, to Mary, eldest daughter of Henry H. Wotton, of 17, Cavendish-square. Deaths. APPLETON—On the 30th u lt., a t Addi ng t on - squa re, S'l 3 ° 6 ' C. Appleton, of 45, Curzon-street, Mayfair. of ANDERSON —On the 25th ult., G enera l J o h n A n derson, her Majesty's Indian Army, aged 84. BEAN—On the 29th ult., at The Mount, Hampstead, Me the wife of Willi am Bean, Esq., aged 57. BROADLEY—On the Ist inst., at Ealing, the Rev. Clog sn , Broadley, LL.D., formerly of Trinity College, ' 1 bridge, aged 65. DUFF—On the Ist inst., Jane Catherine, w id o w of the Wel James C. Grant Duff, Esq., of Eden, Aberdeenshir e. iri HUNT—On the 25th ult., Fiederick Hunt, late CLIP H.M.'s 29th Regiment, aged 45. l LEEDS—On the Ist inst., at 26, Charlotte-street,a -og? For place, Wm. H. Leeds, Esq, aged 80. ws . .oudon : Printed and Published by WILLIAM ANIJ . ,S of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at Tin dux sitioc, pi Strand, in the, Precinct of th e S avo y .ja the 00 111:1 " They 4;1608.