The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-15 00:00:00

after and the in that le most a state .nds for try go. ny that With would ;overn :th they in-is, or 3overn- which duty tiou r ~ d so on trot out, tl.is im not be o think give fr, tic °f hid' he , to that !red the ction la Like that y would r.) He !hs ago► 7 impOr• id since as about The ;35, was ending than 35 ebruarY , had had it, and remain ed posi: ths, had y, 1835• lows that ig to the / of con e sunui induced at this e poor- 1, 1835• list of s. The it actual idoptinf l 2,000/• amount ). The several nt.; and parishes , ory. March. With nforma hat it is Insidera venture . _ more to ad taken to the st which eant the cd froi been a Londorl elves ill- alluded, utry, ? P I q uituur of sayivg country' Gentl e " tories nts, both par tico; iuld b ac more f 3: t r espre s ; Lent, but lent, f Glow ease via 4 • OtTICO rt eas e wa g res we r i e finish issioner, multi . 1 " _ _ CHARITY 11.7,LUSTS. Lord BROUGHAM said, that althoug4: 11 Q agreed gene rally in the principle of the Municipal Refoirdi yet there was one part he should require to be well fenceii and guarded—that was the part relative to the Charity Trusts, He should, therefore, move when that part of the Bill came ntid4 consideration, that the Bill he had introduced should be re committed, and that he should then be . allowed to introduce his Bill, relative to Charity funds—so that if the Bill was not considered to be sufficient further powers might be given. Lord LYNDHURST was by no means satisfied with the provisions of the Bill, as it at present stood, and he should endeavour to amend it. The subject was a very difficult one, considering . the present state of the Session. Lord ELL ENBOROUGH thought the subject well worthy of consideration. Lord BROUGHAM was afraid if the Bill he had brought forward was not passed in the present Session great mischief might be done by trustees. It had been suggested by his Friend ( Earl Radnor) that a clause should be attached to the Corporation Bill, tying up the hands of trustees. This (as we understood) was agreed to; and the Charity Trusts Regulation Bill was read a second time. Lord BRO UGH AM presented several petitions from York shire, Kilmarnock, Cupar, St. Paul Covent-garden, and Arundel, in favour of the Corporation. Bill. Also, similar petitions from Edinburgh, Colchester, Cockermouth, and BNlford. Lord MELBOURNE presented similar petitions from the town of Northampton, Marylebonc, Alnwick, Maidstone, Grantham, Wigtoun, and Neath. REDUCTION OF MILITIA STAFF. On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE the Militia Staff Reductop Bill was read a second time, upon the understand- --- ~,~. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, AUGUST 155 1835. the fair trader in this branch were carried away by smugglers; the heavy duty, whilst it afforded a temptation to the smuggler to corrupt the officers, also destroyed the trade by shutting out capitalists, who did not choose to run the risk of paying so heavy a duty upon property so liable to be destroyed in the cu tting. The duty, therefore, prevented employment, checked production in this article, and almost excluded ex portation by the fair trader. To the reduction of this duty thought he could proceed without any fear of ultimate 'mg. Though there might be some little loss to the revenue in the first year of the reduction, he was of opinion that lowering the duty f rom Gd. to tid, would put down smug gling, improve the article as produced in this country, in crease the consumption at home, and extend the foreign trade, by which means the revenue, so far from losing, would ultimately gain by the remission. With regard to the drawback at present allowed, it would of course be re duced in proportion to the reduction of the duty. The duty at present was about 233,0301., which would be reduced by two-thirds, and this, together with the draw backs, would bring it d ow n to about 100,000/. ; but then he hoped that the increased consumption, even of the first year after the reduction, would increase the duty by 60,0001., or 70,000/. more, and that the income arising from it hereafter would be much more than what it produced before the reduc tion.—(Hear, hear.) There was another small reduction which he felt be could make, but, though small in amount, it would be valuable in its results, as it would be very useful to the poor classes in Ireland. The reduction which he meant referred to stamp duties on awards relating to sums below a certain amount, This measure would encourage references to arbitratio n in Ireland, and tend to do away with the spirit of litigation. The sum thus remitted would be about 5001. It Wa ' s Small, to be sure, but at the same time the reduction was very desirable. To a question from some Hon. Member, as to whether this reduction should not take place in England, T he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that, from the e'rcumstances of Ireland, it was more desirable and more called for in that country than in this ; and, besides, if the reduction were made here, it would be made at a great sacrifice to the revenue. He would trespass upon the House with but a few words mores Though always anxious that the revenue should be in a state to support the public credit, st ill, as regarded the amount of the public burdens, they 6uld not g o b ac k. H e had alienclY shown by comparison much had been 'accomplished, and even the Hon. Member for Middlesex conld not complain that d reduction had not taken place in the amount of money ex Con pe cled in the collec of the taxes since the year 1820. HUM E made some observation, which the' interven '' of the Speaker's chair prevented us from hearing. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he farthe r not contendthat this reduction ought not to be carries: turther than its a amount, namely, 626,362/. ; but even resent b t e ld s, was . below what the Hon. Member for Middlesex himself ail estimated as the amount of reduction which could pro 'ably be calculated on when the Hon. Gentleman made bis za ,ernorable speec h upon re d uct i on i n t h e year 1817. Whil st the thi s part of the subject he would refer to the report of • e Comnittee upon Sinecures to show that beyond existing interests there were no traces of sinecures to be found. The -lght Hon. Gentleman here quoted from the report of the Intnittee to show the amount of reduction in sinecures and pensio ns s i nce 1810 but we could not gather the particulars. H e c __ had n ow gone, through his statement, and thanked the nrirnittee for the attention with which he had been heard. „„ no result would, on the whole, be found satisfactory as re ar t he revenues and resources of the country. So far to re , these resources hav i ng di m i n i s h e d, t h ey wou ld b e f oun d e 7, Ina most fl our i s hi ng con diti o n, and calculated to rasiin- Co 1" its integrity the national honour and faith,--( Cheers.) hi nPared w i th the credit of other countr i es that of ours stood h er now than ever; and, compared with other periods of t own etra history, th e t er ms of the late loan which had been Viated told highly in its favour.—( Cheers.) Hon r.° , II LBURN had heard the statement of the Right admi t Ge ntlema n with the closest attention, and was happy to Part, heft the result was quite satisfactory. For his own ing sh e ~- a ° never for a moment entertained a doubt concern eeeasiowerurces of the country, but, on the contrary, on every that t hat he had the honour to address the House on rti ons 'axe I.3ubject, h e a l wa y s s p o ke in the highest tone as to the whi A which she could make. With regard to the surplus burn' the Hon. Gentleman retained, he (Mr. Goul ) Right Wis e ' would not e nt er into the question, whether or not it was k , en depart from the usual system hitherto adopted by c ert ;.`", admitted talent. The Right Hon. Gentleman had e it ,,Jc'Y not put out of view the necessity of retaining some have 'ss but it was less than what he ( Mr. Goulburn) should aeo n considered advisable to retain. With regard to the allu to which the Right Honourable Gentleman had made as as "ana contracted by former Governments at former times, thoetontrasted with the late loan, and his apparent blame of e A dministrations for not contracting their loans on ter _ wereable annuities, it should be remembered that those loans :ma contracted in periods of difficulty, and during a heavy the iptr.otracted war. Indeed, in another part of his speech, tole ight Hon. Gentleman had furnished the best answer, in there described the difficulty of contracting the late loan look ed Present period of peace and prosperity, when affairs dife eu l so promising, and capital was redundant. If such t emi tY attended the raising of a loan of fifteen millions on m ot n it a bie annuities under such favourable circumstances, and not hare been tenfold greater during a period of war, t hen th e country was placed under such different circum stances With regard to the proposed reductions of his Right th F`rimad, he ( Mr. Goulburn) looked upon them rather in /ro e li ght of trade regulations than reductions of taxation, and, "eed, beii„inz it impossible at present to reduce the reve t„,u;e,B with a due - re,eard to public faith, he was ready to share . util hi s Right Min: - Friend any unpopularity which a refusal t 0 , • r educe the taxes migct subject him to. After the statement tof the Right Hon. Gentleman, no doubt could remain as to in creased prosperity of tiee country, and the only question uieh cou l d arise was as to its extent . Thi s genera l improve ment of the country must, as g matter of course, extend in s ,laie degree to the agricultural inn.arest. But when any di advantaee, or any diminution of the burdens, could be -"orded for any particular class, he hoped the House would a te° with him in thinking that the agricultural interest e Vd be the object of that relief. th HAWK E S congratulated the country on the relief f:_ t , Was premised to the glass trade, which had never been w _fiY treated, in consequence of which three parta of the trade ttuastiecarried on by smugglers. In consequenoe of the heavy iin the w hich pressed upSm it, other countries were rivalling us t e i e o p t: rei;oltdhuection of the article, and the greater part of . our staecrtn trade was in the hands of the smugglers, notecivieuthe vigilance of the Excise. The proposed r f - from th O e u ' d g iv e employment to starving hundreds, and so ar to be i n reve nue being reduced, it would be found eventually C olonel G entle m ill SI -T HORP complained that the Right Hon. an w relatinrr flalluded to the c is to tw o ,e u to make one reservation, viz., that general e ,„ - a gricultural interest, when th s i r i rity, "eluded general which No prosperity would be c . n „arge and valuable class. Hous e litif',u LL ER said he could not congratulate the the manner in which the Chancellor of the Ex be g on e e r roPosed to deal with his surplus. Nothing was to should L 'ut . the agricultural interest • though, to be sure, it ea all demands ' agr iculturists were not e . ~ owed that the of the agricu la rge u s ilY to be satisfied. But there were several other tech and iinPdrtant classes for whom the Chancellor of the fo r i n e q u er did not propose to do anything. He had hoped, siodesatance, that the Right lion. Gentleman would have empire to the loud and universal call from all quarters of the s re, a , and have repealed, at least in part, the tax upon ;__slp pers.—( Laughter and cries of " Oh, oh I") He ex ' eted that I h It had al , aug from the Gentlemen opposite. t a l } n been the policy of the party to which those Gentlemen ee ,"_ ged to prevent the circulation of political knowledge Zu l T2gst the people. He had expected that the present Mi ;l7 after the experience they had bad of the effects of the ;oeirnt monopoly of the public press, would have seen the tvici :Y of opening the channels of public information from s ta r and purer sources, of a reduction of the end duties, instead cf the contemptible reductions on glass t ; spirit licenses, the benefits of which would be blit par '4l,lY felt. h DIVETT :aid that the Chancellor of the Exchequer faitha very small sum SO deal with, and therefore it was hardly to .1 . 1 expect any considerable reduction of taxation from him. ten " was very glad the Rieit Hon. Gentleman had paid at tion to the sub` f e • dI d consented ject o spirit c nsss, an la Partial' two., yto reduce the burdens eehich so onerously, and, he a „ l . !ghts unfairly, pressed upon them. With respect to news -1 stamps, to which the Hon. and Learned Member who th ._‘:Pok e hod alluded, he agreed in a great measure with tit ! . iew s of that Hon. and Learned Member, and : - se believed ttelifothe Chancellor of the Exchequer had tried the Cesueri ve_": f reducing the stamps, say a penny below what th.‘v t...yr at present, he would not have found any inconvenience ` a % it. Si r c B th e b. C. • V PRE said he was sorry to cast any gloom over ai on. l ) ,PY pictur es o f commerc i a l prosper i ty which the Right e.ne Chancellor of the Exchequer had presented to the ti on us h , but th ere really was one class of people whose condi state _ a t. loeg formed an exception to the generally prosperous eeet _t the country ; namely, the agricultural interest. The i s , c „ . 7rs cf land had suffered for .years, and were still suffhr tiZe :Ns:v.ously, particularly under the operation of local taxa t!neli pressed with peculiar severity upon them. He si t i r ` a l . . he Government would take this subject into their con their ,"°n, and devise some means of mitigating the severity of local burthens. matt t' T. F REMANTLE had great pleasure in compliment the vie Right Hon. th e Ch ance ll or o f t h e E xc h equer upon h ad .erY clear, elaborate, and satisfactory manner in which be lis teen J"t explained his financial views to the House. He had ed wi 'entievnath great a tt ent i on to the address of the R i ght Hon. Wi th „ n, and h e must confess that he had also listened h, t u ne greatest satisfaction. At the same time, however, ,? 1 st say, that lie did not thi n k th e revenue was prec i se l y eh Hat b uoyant conditi on w hi c h t h e Chancel l or of the Ex r4tille7ir had contemplated. When Lord Althorp effected the Matt er °" ef the h ouse d ut i es, and those upon spirits and other T or 8 , the Noble Lord calenlated the consequent deficiency resent c urrent year at 736, 000 1 .; upon go i ng through the i t a _e t Chancell or o f t h e Exchequer ' s statement, however ir„.PPeared that the actual deficiency "51 000/ In mak e thi s . was , • calculation, he gave the Right Hon. Gentleman cre og h(itirsa full twelvemonth's loss from the repealed duties up to ha ve es ' Spirits, ece. whereas, in reality, he ought only to year. hoe the loss of three quarters in the present act ual , fle was afraid, therefore, that in subsequent years the Ti reentm l ,° .t s would be yet more considerable. Under these 'quit e ..,: , •,nep he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was .presen e t i e tit in not attempting any great financial reductions at 'of th e This tim e l y prudence on the part of the Chancellor it iii iiis,xchequer gave p rom i se t h at w h enever h e m i g h t h ave Ofect ~,,power to reduce taxation, be would do it wisely and Mr. HUME said he was sorry to hear the Hon. Baronet opposite lavishing praise upon the statement of the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, though be was by no means,strrprised at it. It was just like them (the Opposition party) •it was their maxim to keep up taxation to the highest possible point. With respect to the contemplated reductions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, particularly that of the duty upon glass, he (Mr. Hume) was extremely sorry that he could not give them great praise. He deprecated alto. gether the principle of reducing the amount of a tax, and still keeping up the expense and vexation of collecting it. To reduce a tax, and still keep up the vexatious and irksome machinery of collection, was holding out a hope only to dis appoint it. Taxation by means of excise he considered the most mischievous and tyrannical that could possibly be devised. It was a system of espionage from beginning to end—there was no stage of any manufacture into which it was introduced, which was not thrown open to the inquisitorial proceedings of the Excise Office. Therefore he hoped, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer touched the duty upon glass at all, he would take it off altogether. An Hon. Baronet opposite had drawn the attention of the House to the subject of agricultural dis tress. He (Mr. Hume) agreed that distress existed amongst the agriculturists to a very considerable extent. But this he predicted, that as long as the landed Gentlemen persisted in keeping up the enormous expenses of a standing army, besides the yeomanry and the militia, as long as they concurred in the extravagant expenditure in the various departments of home and colonial government, as long as they persisted in the line of policy which they had hitherto so pertinaciously espoused, so far from their distresses being alleviated they must go on from bad to worse. \Vith regard to what was said of local taxation, he maintained that the agricultural interest had long ago been relieved from every tax which could possibly be be said to press upon them.—( Hear, hear.) Moreover, they were protected by the law in the enjoyment of an extensive monopoly, which did not profit them much to be sure, for he believed that it operated as injuriously upon themselves as upon the commu nity at large. Until the agricultural interest acted honestly they did not deserve any relief. They were acting unjustly in keeping up the monopoly upon corn.— (No, no.) Yes, he maintained that they were acting unjustly to their fellow coun trymen in persisting in that monopoly. Country gentlemen would soon find, to their cost, that they were ruining them selves and the country also. The Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir T. Fremantle) seemed to be under some apprehension as to the future state of the revenue. Now he (Mr. Hume) sin eerelyshoped those anticipations would not be realised. The customs \ were in an improving state, owing to the redifetion upon the spirit duties; so much so that he wished the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had taken courage from the result of that experiment, and reduced the custom duties upon other articles; for instance, tobacco, which, it was noto rious, under the existing duties offered great temptations id - . the smuggler to undersell the fair trader and de franc: the revenue. If the Chancellor of the Exche quer court but reduce his duty upon this article below the figure point of smuggling, he bad no doubt all parties would be gainers, and the fair trader would acknowledge an act of justice in the reduction. He came now to a sore point be tween his Right Hon. Friend and himself, upon which he felt compelled to touch. He was' extremely grieved at finding that his Right lion. Friend had not .condescended so much as to notice the prayers of the tens of thousands of petitioners who had called upon the House to relieve them from the shackles upon knowledge.—( Hear, and Oh, oh.) The people felt that those taxes had been put on for the purpose of keep ing them in ignorance ; that they had been put on in bad times by bad men—be must call them so—who had no desire to promote the interests of the many, and who were anxious to promote the interests of a bad Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman's statement had been cheered by the opposite side of the House. His Hon. Friend should always look with great jealousy upon any approbation which came from that quarter ; he should beware of the cheers of the Tories.— ( Hear, and laughter.) He might be sure he was in the wrong, when they cheered, and he would do well to hesitate, and con sider whether he ought to advance in it a single step further. The tax on newspapers ought to be removed at once, at least the trash Act, as it was called, ought to be repealed. Was it consistent to establish schools to teach the people to read, and then to impose a tax which prevented them having books to read? He hoped the time would come when this shilly-shally ing mode of proceeding would be discontinued, and a more direct course adopted. He called upon the Right Hon. Gen tleman to declare whether he contemplated doing anything to reduce or commute the taxes upon knowledge ? Mr. HANDLE .Y rose to call the attention of the House to the subject of agrieultural distress. He was sorry that he could not concur with the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that all had been done for the relief of the landed interest that could be done. Much sympathy bad been expressed from time to time in the speeches from the Throne for the unhappy condition of the once flourishing class of British yeomanry, but nothing of substantial relief was accorded them, or thought of by the Legislature. He intreated the House to do a tardy act of justice and humanity, and to devise some means of reducing the burdens under which all persons con nected with agricultural matters had so long laboured. Colonel RUSHBR 0 OKE suggested that as the experi ment of reducing the spirit duties had succeeded so well in Ireland it should also be extended to Scotland. Mr. BL AMIRE recommended a reduction of the excise regulations with respect to malt. Mr. 0. GORE said that the agriculturists required no exclusive privileges or exemptions. They merely claimed to be fairly and equally dealt with, in common with the rest of the community, and he, therefore, implored the House to take their present distresses into consideration. Major BE AUCLERK complained that the Hon. Members on the opposite side pressed for a reduction of taxation ; and yet when propositions of independent members for the re duction of expenditurh came before the House they seldom gave them their support. He regretted that Ministers had not endeavoured to reduce those taxes which prevented the dif fusion of knowledge. The Hon. Member also recommended that immense sums of money should not be yearly voted to the colonies, but that the colonists should be left to manage their own affairs. Mr. ROBINSON eulogised the lucid order of the finan cial exposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and joined with him in thinking that the resources of the kingdom were capable of far greater developement than they had ever before undergone. He was bound to admit that, generally speaking, the manufacturing interests were in an improved con dition. Some manufacturing branches were, however, greatly distressed, and it had been undeniably proved that the 'ship ping interests were in a state of lamentable depression. The Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had therefore made a great omission in taking the agricultural classes as the only classes suffering under distress. Still he admitted that he did not see at present in what way the shipping interest could be relieved. The Hon. Member recommended a more judicious system of collection of duties, stating his conviction that up wards of a million would thereby be saved. With respect to {lie reductions made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must say that his Right Hon. Friend had made an excellent selection. Upon the whole the financial statement was very satisfactory. Mr. ROEBUCK said that he was not disappointed at the Budget, considering that those propositions of reduction which he and his Hon, Friends had frequently made had not re ceived the support of the House. The Hon. Member con cluded with an attack upon the landed interests. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a few words in reply. Mr. H. BUL WE R thought that concessions ought to have been made with respect to the taxes on the Press. Several votes being granted the House resumed, and pro ceeded on the Orders of the Day. Mr. A. TREVOR moved the second reading of the Sale of Beer Bill. Mr. WARBURTON objected to the Bill, as it would have the effect of interfering with the existing rights of those who were engaged in the trade. Mr. HU ME moved thot the Bill be read this day six months. The Gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place, the Bill having been withdrawn. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at half-past one o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Atrausr 14. The VICEXHANCELLOR took his seat on the. Woolsack shortly before five o'clock. Lord FITZGERALD and STE SE Y presented several pe titions from St. Katherine's, Dublin, and different parts of Ireland, praying for the protection of the Protestant Church, and against the Tithe Bill. Earl DE GREY presented a petition from Bedford, pray ing their Lordships to introduce such clauses in the Municipal Reform Bill as would protect their rights. Lord E L ENBORO UG H presented a petition from Wor cester against the Municipal Reform Bill. The Marquis of EXETER presented a similar petition f rom Stamford. Lord ;'9LTIMORE presented a petition from Crediton, Devonshire, in favour of the Municipal Reform Bill. The Duke of 1;::(2:HMOND postponed bringing up the the Highways Bill till Monday. Report of the Committee . ing that the Bill was to be debated upon going into Cona- Inaittee. The Bill was ordered to be committed on Monday. Lord FA LMO UTH presented a petition from the Corpo ration of Truro. praying to be heard at the Bar, for the purpose of refuting the accusations that had been brought against them. Lord BROUGHAM had no doubt there would very shortly be presented another petition from Truro, which would give a very different account of the matter. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from Deal and Walmer, against the Corporation Bill. The Marquis of LA NSDOWNE presented a petition in favour of the Bill, from Sherborne. The Tea Duties Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. MUNICIPAL REFORM BILL. • The House then went into Committee on the Corporation Bill. On the reading of the Bth clause, Lord LYNDHLTRST moved the omission of the second proviso in this clause; the effect of which would be, to allow persons, in indifferent circumstances, to be placed on the list of voters. Viscount MELBOURNE was very unwillinr , to offer any factious opposition to the Bitl of the Noble and Learned Loro —( Laughter and cheers)—tint he should prefer retaining the proviso notwithstanding.. Lord LYNDHURST—The Noble Viscount is not quite correct in calling this my Bill, but I am quite certain it is not. his. I beg to move that the proviso be struck out. After a few words from Lord PLUNKETT, The amendment was put and carried, and the clause, as amended, was agreed to. Clause 9 was agreed to. Clause 10. Lord LYNDHURST moved the omission of this clause, which would have the effect of conferring double votes. After a desultory conversation ..the amendment was put and carried, and the clause was omitted. Clause 11. ( A verbal amendment having been introduced by Lord LYNDHURST) was agreed to. Clause 12, on the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, was omitted. Clause 13. Lord LYNDHURST moved the omission of this clause. Lord BROUGHAM suggested the expediency of post poning Vis — count MELBOURNE would take that opportunity of saying, in his own defence, that the observations he had-made with reference to freemen over-estimating the value of some of their rights, were abundantly confirmed by some of the same witnesses as had been produced at their Lordships' bar in op position to the Bill, and whose evidence had been so highly extolled. Mr. Rotherham ,and Mr. Carter, the Mayor and Town-Clerk of Coventry, in their evidence before the Com mittee of the House of Commons, had stated that in their opi nion the privilege of turning out cattle on common-land did more harm than good to those who enjoyed it. The Lammas lands were widely dispersed, some of them being two miles and a half from the town, and some nearer ; and their opinion was, that they were of no benefit. With reference to the present clause, he would consent to expunge it, reserving to himself, however, the right of considering whether another might no; hereafter be substituted in its place. The clause was then negatived without a division. Clauses 14 and - 15 were then agreed to. On the 16th clause being read, Lord LYNDHURST said that he rose with the intention of proposing an amendment to this clause, and that the nature of the objections which he felt to the lause would be best understood by reference to the clause itself. He had formorly stated that it was not his intention, nor, he believed, the iti tention of the Noble Lords round him, to make any objectiim to the burgess qualification proposed by this Bill. It howe , yer appeared, that by the clause now before their Lordships qualification was required for councillors, which, in his opinion, was most inexpedient and unwise.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) As the clause at present stood, any person pay ing even the smallest amount of rate might become a member of the council, and take a part in discharging all the important duties which fell to be performed by persons chosen to that office. He thought that their Lordships would be of opidlon that some qualification for the office of councillor ought to be required.—( Hear, hear.) In the discharge of almost all other important duties, some qualification was required by law. hi the other House of Parliament a qualification was required. A NOBLE LORD made some remark, the purport of which was not heard. Lord LYNDHURST continued : He admitted that there were certain exceptions. There were cases in which no qua lification was required, but he spoke of the general practice. Justices of the peace and magistrates were required to have a qualification, and what was more important to the question immediately before their lordships, in every local Act, those chosen for the performance of the particular duties required by the Act were required to have a qualification, and in most instances a pecuniary qualification to a large amount. It was upon these grounds that he meant to move an amendment to the present clause. Ile did not mean to say that a pecuniary qualificatien always secured the selection of persons of in telligence, of persons of integrity. He did not mean to as sert that that was the effect of a pecuniary qualification, but at least it had a tendency to that effect—( Hear, hear)— and it was the kind of security always required. He there . . fore thought in the present instance a qualification should be required.—( Hear,. hear..) Their_ Lordships would feel bat the subject was one of no inconsiderAre . diffieulty to fix what the species of qualification should be. One species of qualifi cation was the possession of a certain amount of real or per sonal property, but that was liable to objection, because it was too indefinite. Another species of •-qualification was the occupancy of a house of a particular value ; but that was li able to two objections. In the first place the difficulty of ascertaining what was the real value of a house, and in the se cond place, the difference between the class of persons occu pying houses of the same value in different places, as, for instance, a person occupying a house of the value of 201. in one place, was a very different person, and in a very different class of society, from a person occupying a house of the same value in another place. There was a third species of qualification which might be adopted, namely, that of rating.--( Hear, hear.) But that principle was not easy of application. The rating was not always laid on the full value of the property. In some places rates were paid to the full value of the property, in other places to the value of one .half, and in others to the value of only one-fourth. Considering all the difficulties of the case, it had occurred to him that the best qualification which could be adopted, and that which would operate with the greatest equality in all cases, would .be founded upon the amount of the rates paid with reference to each particular bo rough; that is, that those who should be called upon to admi nister the affairs of the borough should be chosen from those who were the highest rate-payers. He proposed that the rate payers should be divided into a certain number of classes, and that from the highest of these classes the persons should be chosen who should be selected to administer the affairs of the borough. Acting upon this principle; he proposed that tile. rate-payers should be divided into six classes, and that the one-sixth of those who paid the highest amount of rate should be those from whom the councillors should be selected. This principle he thought would be more easily applied in all circumstances than any other which he could recommend ; and it was with that view that he recommended it to their Lordships. He hoped that their Lordships would adopt the principle of his amendment, and apply it to all the towns and boroughs which came within the operation of the Bill. For the purpose of carrying this amend ment into effect, it would be necessary that another list besides the burgess list should be prepared by the overseers, and be proposed that that list should be liable to objection in the same manner as the list of burgesses. He had only to add, that the amendment which he - meant to move would apply not only to the clause then under their Lordships' consideration, but to several clauses which followed it. Lord BROUG HAM then rose, and said that it was un doubted that nothing could be more fit and proper than the course adopted by the Noble and Learned Lord in moving his amendment. The Noble and Learned Lord had stated the grounds upon which he wished to found this material alteration in the Bill with that clearness and perspicuity for which ho was distinguished, and had brought forward his amendment at the most convenient period at which it could be brought for ward. As far as regarded his Noble and Learned Friend's pro position, it was by far the most important, and by far the greatest amendment--4 amendment it could be called; for be considered it as no amendment, but the reverse ; but with re gard to his Noble and Learned Friend's proposition, he consi dered it the worst objection that had yet been brought against this Bill, or that could be brought against it during the shun of this Committee. With respect to the question of qualifiea- . tion, his Noble and Learned Friend was quite right in saying, that, generally speaking, a qualification was considered neces sary in this country for the purpose of securing fit and proper magistrates. But his opinion was, that the 100/. qualifleation required from justices of the peace had no good effect.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend had brought the case of the qualification required by Members of the ether House of Parliament as an illustration. In his ( Lora: Brougham's) opinion, the illustration was a singularly infe liCitous one as a recommendation of qualification in the ab stract. Their. Lordships required ne 911ali4eafien, emiepting that of birth, or being ennobled but in the other House it was different, Now, let their Lordships look how the case stood with regard to the ether House. It was true that his - Noble and Learned Friend did not take the same principle for his qualification as that required to entitle a person to be Aeon 4 Me „her of the other House ; and his Noble and Learned FriencPs pf t ipo-sition hail this admita i ia, that it was not so easily evaded. But witn regard to the qualification required for a Member of the House of Commons, he ( Lord Brougham) would say that nothing could be more ridiculous— ( Hear, hear)—nothing could be a greater piece of mummery than that flualigeatiqq.---( /fear, ileac.) 4 qualiticatfen of 600/. teas required from knights of the shire, and of 3001. from burgesses of boroughs. These qualifications were absurd in themselves, in making a difference where no differeire ought to he 1 and were most absurd in t' f ii4, that baying made the difference, beth classes (lir - Member's Should be jumbled together, and a freehold qtalification required from both. But not only was this qualification evaded--not nix voOt 4noingloti§ and absurd, but. yet theist lock will hew it Worked. There was a qualification required in England and in Ireland, but none was required for Scotland ; and the only instance i n which . a qualificati on was not required was that c i f Alemherts her th e two UniverOtie§. Noq: let them attend to, the practical working of this qualifiction.'' 'The Noble and Learned Lord said that the use of a qualification was to se cure Members of a certain stamp of respeetability. Now, it so happeue4 that tliP law at it inky steq4 Wit that in England a man was not fit to be a Member of parliament who had no qualification, while in Scotland a man was 4t ‘ N h o h a d floor. But did the qualification secure to England better or more fitting and respectable Members of the Lecrislature? . < Were the Scotch Members of a lower order ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they, in point of fact, chosen from among the paupers of the country worse than the English were ?—( Hear, hear, and • a laugh.) He would venture to say that there was not one among the 53 Members for Scotland who was not, in point of wealth, more than equal to the average of the English or Irish Members. Yet the English and Irish Members were qualified with 3001. or 6001., while the 53 Scotch Members had no qualification at all. Of what use, then, was the quali fication ?—( Hear, hear.) It did not keep those out who had little or no property that was clear, and did it give security for respectability? Heshould say most unquestionably not— ( Hear.) It was quite true, as was stated by the Noble and Learned Lord, that local Acts 'generally required a qualifica tion—certainly a great number did, although he would under take to point out some which did not ; but he ( Lord Brougham) recollected asking some persons who had an opportunity of knowing if the qualifications required by local Acts secured respectability, and the answer was decidedly not.—(Cheers.) His opinion was, that if there was no pecuniary qualification required, persons would be the more led to inquire into the merits of the different candidates, and to scrutinize more nar rowly as to their having the more necessary qualification of suitableness for the office.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If it were fixed that there should be a pecuniary qualification, persons would be too apt to consider that as the only one required. He would now refer to the very alarming, and to him somewhat astounding_ proposition brought forward by his Noble and Learned Friend. He did not think that their Lordahips were aware of the extent to which that amendment went. He would endeavour to explain it. " You are to look," said the Learned Lord, " in the first place to the electors, and then to the places where the elections take place, and then to the duties to be entrusted to those chosen." Now he (Lord Brougham) would ask any man of common sense, who looked practically to the subject without any reference to theory or speculation, if 'it was likely that the majority of those persons who paid the rates themselves would choose improper persons to a situation in which they would have the power not only of imposing rates, and of managing the affairs and administer ing the property of the town but of regulating tile po lice ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it likely that the majority qt'. the voters would say, " Let us look about us and fled a beg gar, even if he is not worth three-farthings, and choose him for a councillor. Here is a Bill which allows us to choose any man we please ?"—(Hear, hear, hear.) Was it likely that the voters would vote for beggars, and avoid men of respectability ? Yet the argument for a qualifica tion assumed that, if it assumed any thing,--(Hear, hear.) He was morally certain that it would in practice be found _?that none but substantial persons would be chosen, and that not one councillor in five linndred would be selected who was not a men of respectable standing in society.--(Cheers.) It was not the practice of the common people of this country to be regardless of wealth.—( Hear, hear.) He had never any occasion to think that the purse was not considered in this country a test of respectability.—(Hear, hear.) In no place that he had ever been in was there such regard paid to wealth as by the majority of his good countrymen.--( Hear, hear.) He thought that nothing tended to raise persons in the eyes of their neighbours so much as their being in a good way, and nothing sooner deprived them of that good opinion than their falling back in the world, even if there is nothing against their character. He did not think therefore that it was likely the persons chosen as councillors would not be respectable. —( Hear, hear.) Indeed he thought the contrary would more likely be the rock upon which the voters would split. Let them now look at the motion of his Noble and Learned Friend. His Noble Friend said that only those who paid most rates should be eligible for councillors. This was limiting the choice of the burgesses to the smallest limit. It was laying dAn a principle that none but one small and confined class who paid rates should have the administration of the affairs of the town. Be • the poison ever so respectable, be he looked up to as the best burgess of the town, be he ever so noted for his integrity, his sagacity, his powers of mind, his experience in offices of public trust, all, all would be pleaded in vain. He must be excluded. No voter can raise his voice in his favour if he wishes his vote not to go for nothing. He is necessarily excluded by this inexorable rule if he has but one penny less than the numerical fraction of one-sixth to which his Noble and Learned Friend would limit it? Would any of their Lordships say that this was not a most grievous absurdity ?—(Cheers.) And when his Noble and Learned Friend talked of novelties and innovations, was not this one of the greatest novelties and most alarming innovations that ever had been brought before their Lordships? 'He did not believe that in all the political, commercial, or private measures which he had ever known to be brought before Parliament, there was ever such an innovation as this. The principle of taking one-sixth of the rate-payers, and making them only eligible, - was to this time quite unknown. —( Cheers.) In every other case a man might acquire a quali fication. He might acquire a qualification for Member of Parliament; and but for that power the country would have been deprived of the services of many of the most distinguish. ed Members of the other House of Parliament—men who edi feed the world by their wisdom and charmed it by their do quence--( Cheers)—but who would not have had an opportunity of setting a foot in the House of Commons if the rule in that case was inflexible as that proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend. The eligibility in the present case was confined to one limited class, and between that class and all others a bar was laid, across which no man could set his foot.—(Cheers.) The proposition of his Noble and Learned Friend was not only an alarming novelty, but in principle it was neither founded upon reason nor common sense.—( Hear, hear.) It was not founded upon enlarged and li'perahriers - , - -forit was . fortricirti -upon •the principle of exelu , siveness.—( Hear, hear.) It was founded on the worst prin ciple of exclusiveness to the aristocracy or oligarchy of wealth.—(Cheers.) He knew that the adoption of his Noblo and Learned Friend's amendment would be fatal to the work- ing of the Bill.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial BoneWCs.) It would be just as well for their Lordships to say that the Bill should not pass at all.—( Great cheering.) Gracious God! had the people no person to speak for them under the Aristocracy ? Vas only one-sixth to be represented, and were the rest to be stigmatized, as the proposition would stigmatize them only because they were poor ?—( Cheers.) By this, a bachelor who took an extravagant house might become a member of the Council, but if he married, lived prudently, and b ecame a respectable father of a family, he might be excluded front , taking any part in the affaiP of thc town, This was an inno vation tli moat surprising, for it was one which could never havo boon adopted in even the worst of times.--(Hear, hear.) 'The consequences of it 'would be, that the choice of councillors would necessarily be made without regard to integrity, to use fulness, or to the experience which a man had. It might ex clude all those who would be uaeini, witllo it admitted persons by a test which might 4dmit the worst and most improper cha raeters,—( Cheers.) Money was not generally considered as a qualification, but as a test that the person was respectable— ( Hear)—but the qualification now proposed was worse than one taken from property in land, for it depended upon the number of the inhabitants, and the manner in which they might divide by sig.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The amendment ap peared to him to be vague, unsound, ill-advised, and ill-judged It tended to put into the hands of the wealthy the whole right of administering the affairs of towns ; and last and worst of all, it was the first introduction of that principle of exclusiveness Rhich laid down a barrier which no man could cross.—(Loud cheers.) The principle of giving the monopoly w hi c h t hi s would create to the richer class would be as much as if it were said to the poor classes, " They govern you here, and they hafe got money," and the poor were to be as much excluded from the affairs of towns as the Irish Catholics were from the administration of the affairs of the State before passing of the Catholic Relief Bill, or the slaves in the West Indies before the passing of the Slavery Abolition• Act. —( Loud Cheers.) Lord WICKLOW said that the principle was not a new one, as in the Irish Grand Jury Act, which had passed two years ago, it was provided that the jury should be selected from the highest rato-paprs, thereby establishing the prin ciple sought to be established by his Noble and Learned Friend. Ho was therefore surprised to hear the Noble and Learned Lord opposite declare that this was the first time it bad boon heard of. • Lord BROUGHAM said that the Noble Earl might be quite correct. He had not been aware that the qualification had been adopted in that Act; but whether it was qr not, he considered it a very improper one.--( Hear, and a laugh.) His attention had not been before called to it,. But if the Noble Earl wanted - further illustration for his ( Lord Brougham's) having acceded to Bills in which qualifications were required, he could have but little difficulty in finding them.- however, he ( Lord Brougham) would say, that in agreeing to a quali fication in any case, it was against his will and his better judg. ment.—( Hear, hear. ) The Earl of DEVON said, that in the Poor Law Amend. ment Act a qualification was required4nearly analogous to that proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend. The guardians were to be chosen from a oertain olass of rate-payers, and pow %YU given to the Commissioners to direct what a•» qualification should be.—( Hear, hear.) hip " position of his Noble and Learned F" ; per one, ...punt the ,ilought the pro .end a rational and pro- l'h€4 Dukt - "Of RIOHMOND opposed the amendment, be c'Aiso a lualification was not a test of good character. If left . to the free choice of the voters, the most respectable man would naturally be chosen. If thi s amen d ment were carried, the Corporations would do but little good to the people of England ; for although there might not be so much self-election as under the present iaw, yet the choice would be confined to a very limited class. Lord WII A RNCLIFFE supported the amendment. Even in 'London a qualification, and by no means an insig nificant cute, was deemed necessary for those who filled the (Ace of vestrymen. How much more necessary must some qu s alification be for those who were to act as town-council lors ? He admitted the difficulty of" fixing upon an amount of qualification that should operate equally in hll places, but 4,0 n the whole, he was disposed to think that that pro posed by the Noble and Learned Lord was the best that could bi! suggested, He understood that under the Scotch id be r emem b ere d t h at i n S cot l an d t h ere were no Cer t 7,1 - .7t* Pratign Act no qualifi ca ti on was requ i re d ; but it poor -rates. He should give his cordial support to the pro position of the Nc,lllo and Learned Lord. 1-l upon the • (!VCI BROUGHAM, to prevent any misunderstanding Friend, whether, according to his view, supposing the pro point, ju s t w i s h e d t o as k his Noble and Learned position to Lc, adopted, if a person were once elected a eqVlriri ,l l o x; l e could afterwards lose his place as a councillor; beearoe this might happen—.a' man might be in a house this year, which made him one of the selected and chosen sixth ; but nett y et , nnnlo in three or four other persons, who built up larger and better houses, which would have the effect of reducing the first below the pale of the exalted sixth. In that case, th e ru au being no longer qUalificd, was to be dis played?' Lcrd LYN DHURST—If a man be once elected a coun cillor, he'rvill continue to act as a councillor till the period of .his services expires. The Earl of RIPON was disposed to look upon the pro position of the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) as an innovation on the.structure of corporate bodies which it would not be proper to admit. Although a money qualification had been deemed necessary in those who acted as trustees in the administration of funds, no qualification of that kind ha'.3 ever yet been requ i re d in hose who were chosen to discharge municipal functions. But even supposing; a qualification to be necessary, he certainly could not bring himself to think that the qualification proposed. by the Noble and Learned Lord was of a character that it would be right for the Legis lature to recognise. The effect of it, in many instances,, would be to deprive corporate towns of the services of some of their most useful, most efficient, and most independent in habitants. He, for one, therefore, was of opinion that it would be better not to require the qualification which was the ob ject of the amendment.—( Hear. ) Lord PLUNKETT would not apply himself to the argu ment of whether a qualification were or were not necessary. He thought a qualification was not necessary ; but of all the qualifications that could be required, he thought that sug gested by the amendment was the very worst. It would establish a principle of exclusion which every corporate town would , be disposed to regard as an insult instead of a boon. The exemption proposed by the Noble and Learned Lord did so upon the ground that the parties exempted had no qualification, but that others had a better quali fication. Why were the five-sixths excluded? Not because they might not have a very sufficient qualification —not because they had' no property—no experience —no integrity —or 0 , possession of none of the confidence of their fellow-nom` but because the remaining s i x th o f t h e i n h a bi tants ens, qualification. The people o f th e countrx.,w^:.' oad a higher as to be imposed upon by a prop os iti e s• 're not such idi o t s the Noble and Learned L or d h- • of that description. If thing by which the provi-' endeavoured t o d evise any ons of the Bl could e d - into a mockery - ,is . would be impossible il b for him to pursue a better cprse_ Hear, hear. ) Y.,1 1 ° . &hike of BUCCL E UCH said that when Noble Lords argue d as if no qua lifi cat i on were required in the Scotch ourghs, they were completely mistaken ; because, by the Act which ,passed only a short time ago, it was expressly pro vided, that those only should be the electors or councillors who were possessed of the 10/. qualification, in the same manner as those. who were to elect Members of Parliament. —( Hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that a qualification ought to be required for the Council, of the English cor porate towns ; and he knew of no qualification that could be more properly required than that suggested by the Noble and Learned Lord. The Earl of HADDINGTON ber 2 .e,-,ed to confirm what had been stated by the Noble Duke with respect to the qua lification required in the Council of the Scotch burghs. If it were expected that corporate property should be properly administered, and that the interests of the town should be pro perly protected, no one could doubt that some qualification ought to be required in the members of the governing body. The Earl of RADNOR saw no necessity for requiring a qualification. He thought that the inhabitants of the towns would always select those to govern their affairs who were naturally the best qualified. At all events, if any qualification were necessary, such a qualification as that proposed by the Noble and Learned Lord was the very last that should be adopted. The Duke of WELLINGTON thought that persons who Were entrusted with such discretionary powers, and with such an extent of authority 'as must necessarily be conferred on the governing body of every corporate town, ought to possess some certain qualification. It was absolutely necessary that they should give some sort of security fOr the due and proper per formance of the duties which devolved upon them. He was of opinioii that the qualification proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend would act uniformly and successfully, applying equally to all places, whether large or small. Lord GLENELU objected decidedly and in the strongest manner to the proposition of the Noble and Learned Lord. It was a proposition which struck at once at the very principle of the Bill, and if adopted, would be utterly destructive to it. The object of the Bill was to produce a sympathy of interest— a common feeling of good will —an equality of rights amongst all the inhabitants in every corporate town. The effect of the Noble and Learned Lord's proposition would be to establish in every town a separate and exclusive class, from out of which only the corporate officers should be elected. This would at once be fatal to the principle of the Bill. Lord E LLENB ORO UGH was persuaded that the only purpose which his Nohle and Learned Friend had in view was to prevent persons who were not properly qualified from hold ing situations of trust and importance. His reason for voting for his Noble and Learned Friend's proposition was, that - he wished this to be a permanent establishment for the good of. the country. They had often seen that on the occurrence of a single abuse, Parliament had proceeded to overturn an establishment. Now, no man could doubt that as the Bill at present stood, it would be the cause of the grossest abuses.. It was. desirable, therefore, in order to secure the permanency, of the proposed establishm en t, th a t as li tt l e temptations- --io abuse as possible should be afforded. They must islet° with reference not to particular exceptions, but to.‘:,, e enera l rule. He was persu a d e d th at many o f t h e i r. r ordships were not aware of the extent of franchise to vifich the proposition of his Noble and Learned Friend 1 ".7,:fd reach. In Shrews bury there would be still 648 PFP . ons elieible, notwithstanding that proposition ;in Doncase-,r; 400 ; , ; Maidstone 500 in Northampton, 590. -- Lord BROUG- . 14. .. AM said a few words in explanation. The Marlqui7. of L ANSDOWNE was not one of those who, gerl".liily speaking, objected to the principle of qealifica -11011), out be - could net see any 'principle of qualifica'tion in the )resent case which wculd not be objectionable. The proposi tion which the Noble and Learned Lord made with reference to this great popular measure was to disqualify five-sixths of the rate-payers of England, on no account but that of their comparative poverty. The Noble Duke opposite had spoken of the certainty and uniformity of the operation of wealth, He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) readily admitted his wish that wealth should preponderate ; but that its operation should be perfectly certain and uniform was precisely that which he was desirous of avoiding. In the early part of the discussion he heard a Noble Lord talk of the necessity of ex eluding demagogues, by which term he supposed that Noble Lord meant to describe persons who had obtained an influence over many.persons in their own rank of life. Now he did not know anything more certain than if persons who had obtained that kind of influence—which it was by no means easy for any one to obtain except by superior talents and character—were excluded from - associating with the higher ranks of society, they would be found much more dangerous than if they were admitted into that society. In the one case the people would think that their interests were attended to ; in the other case that their interests were neglected. From his experience he was sure that, in the long run, the choice of the people of England, especially with reference to those who were to have the superintendence of money affairs, would fall upon persons of property. And he was also persuaded that, under the ope ration of the proposed clause, persons of wealth would be fre quently excluded. He knew a case of a person who was rated at a low rate, only fora shop, but who was a person of wealth, living out of the town, and who would come under the bar of exclusion contained in the Noble and Learned Lord's clause. He believed that, in general, wealth tinder the Bill would predominate ; but that it would gather about itself (as it ought to do) a limited number of individuals, who, either by their attainments, or by their popularity, would add to the confidence which town-councils ought to possess. Viscount MELBOURNE said, that exhausted as the sub ject was, he was unwilling farther to take up their Lordships' time. But so deeply impressed was he with the importance of the question,'that he could not allow it to go to a decision without saying a few words. The proposition for introducing qualification into the Bill had been considered ; but it had been resolved to bring in the Bill in its present form, on ac count of the difficulty of making any qualification effectual ; any qualification which might not be evaded, and set at nought. In his opinion it would be neither wise nor,prudent to require a qualification of property - on the part of tiThse who were to be elected members of the town-council. It would be contrary to the principle of the Bill. The present evil was the want of a community of feeling between the governing and the go verned body. Not only, therefore would such an introduction as that proposed be contrary to the principle on which t! Le measure was founded, but it would be contrary to the feel ings of Englishmen, and would be productive discontent. The prop ose d mo d e o f qualifie: of general ation was, en tirely a new doctrine. Where 91U1Pric4ti' by law, it was a fi xe d qualification . '' t was now required try was requir e d t o 'have. ided AlO member for a coun -.. 600 L 00/. a year. The a year. A Membe- . property of the value of for a borough was required to have 3 Acts was the qualification prescribed by some Local of 1 000/. But the qualification re quires] possession , oy the proposed clause was, not that the individuals _weld be positively rich, but that they should be the richest persons in the town in which they resided. That would be to introduce a new system, a new principle, a new practice, which he had no doubt would prove more odious to the people than the existing system, however odious that might be. Al though he did not approve of the amendments which had al ready been introduced into the Bill, he was anxious that the Bill should pass and should become the law of the land; but he was convinced that nothing could be more likely to pro duce a contrary result than the adoption of the amendment 'now proposed. He was convinced that if that amendment became law, it would be productive of the most aristocratical and oligarchical feelings; that it would be productive of feel ings alien and hostile to the people at large, and abhorrent to the spirit of the times ; and he believed in his conscience, therefore, that the adoption of it by their Lordships would be 'fatal to the Bill. Lord L YNDHURST said that the object which he had in view in proposing his amendment was the preservation of pro perty. He had shaped it with reference to that purpose, and with reference to obtaining a sound and wholesome sy s t em o f municipal gove rnmen t. He had attentively listened to the ar guments which had been urged against his proposition, but he remained unconvinced. At first it was contended that no qua lifitation whatever was necessary. The Noble Marquess and the Noble Viscount bad, however, abandoned that ground. For his own part he was convinced that if there were no quali fication, the town councils would, in many cases, be unfit to discharge any trust, and more especially that important trust of taxing their fellow townsmen. The Noble and Learned . Lord here referred to several measures, and especially to the Municipal Corporations Bill for Scotland, to show that .the principle of qu a lifi ca ti on h a d b een un if orm l y acte d upon . In the Poor-law Bill the same principle had been re cognised. But, it had been said that it was establishing .a principle 'of exclusion. Why, wherever a principle of qualification was adopted, that principle must, in one point of view, be considered a principle of exclusion. He hat selected the qualification' which he had proposed because he thought it most applicable to a variety of places, and a variety of circumstances; because he thought it the most tlexlie principle. It was not a narrow principle. If he had taken a fourth instead of a sixth, it would have embraced all the 10/. householders in the kingdom? Was that barrow? On the contrary, it was a large and ample principle. Could :t be `` \ it; ( .-! t-AN justly considered as fettering- the choice of the people? it deserve to be stigmatised as it had been stigmatised? It would, however, undoubtedly secure the election of perpons who, so far as property went, would be fit for the situation% which they occupy. No qualification could he conceived which would not bear hard upon some one. He was moss anxious, as anxious as the Noble Viscount, that the Bill should pass into a law. The subject had created great excitortent and agitation. He was anxious therefore that the Bill hhOUld be passed in such a shape that, if it did not meet w ith the f a , your, would at least experience the toleration, of the otlmt House of Parliament. The Marquis of WESTMEATH oliorved, that wit!, re . ferende to the question of qualikatlen, the Irish Tit!,„ C on , position Act provided that persons voting ute;,, t h at A ct should have votes in proportion to their propel Ey . • Loral-LYNDH URSI said that he waP 'so atiXious to meet the wishes of the Noble Lords opposy o.- that he would consent to modify his proposed clause. Lord BROUGHAM o ord better take the 10'. that the Noble and Learned L Lord had LYNDHIJR,97. then we quali nt fication at once. down to the table and read his modiii t a op .use; nature of the m e- but we were unable to coll e ct t he . L 7 4 ,.., 111 fieti UG HAM said he would vctc against the rnodi -4- eudtnent ; m ean i ng th ere by t o ex p ress hi s op i n i on mat any qualification whatever. Lord TE YNIIAM said a few words, which were inaudible in the gallery. The Committee then divided. The numbers were Contents for the amendment Non-contents, against the amendment Majority in favour of the amendment Lord BROUGHAM whiled to know whether his N'-oble and Learned Friend meant to reduce the classification, as ho had intimated he would. • Lord LYNDHURST proposed that the clause should then be added to the Bill, meaning het carter to move the recommit ment of the Bill, in order to consider maturely the queitien put • to him by the Noble and Learned Lord. Lord BROUGHAM begged then, with n o unfriendly spirit or purpose, to submit to their Lordships' consideration the pros , bable effect that would be produced upon the country by leer- mg the clause as it was at present. His Noble and Learned Friend said it was his wish to make the Bill as perfect as he could—to make it work well. Now, in order to its working well, it must be made acceptable to the Country ; and was that likely, so long as the measure contaiited.se _invidious a dis tinction between rich and poor is this clause contained? Ac cording to the argument of his Noble and Learned Friend very little wasgained by this'elause. He (Lord Brougham) thought otherwise as to the effect of it. He thought a great deal was obtained by it. But, assuming that his Noble and Learned Friend was right, and that he was wrong, he would ask was it fitting, was it wise—he would not say was it safe, because he might be misunderstood and misrepresented ; but. was it sound, or even well considered towards themselves, or calculated to secure the well working of the measure, to stamp upon this Bill that most hateful appearance of exclud ing every person who was not of the richest class in the com munity ? By adhering to the provision to which he alluded, wealth would become the criterion of eligibility ; for it would not be confining the qualification to those who possessed a certain amount of property, but it would be excluding ttP who did not belong to the richest class of society: • Would it, be asked, be a good moral result of their labonrs.to establish such a principle in the government of the; ift - airs of this country ? The Earl of DEVON s;id he had lookt4 upon the question in the last clause simply as one of qualification or no qualifica- • tion. It was his intention to trio , : that those who possessed the required amount of proprrry, although not included within the first class, should be elif;ible for civil office. Lord LYNDHURST'said the Noble Earl would have an • opportunity upon a subs.;quent clause of moving the aniead merit he had referred to. The clause was then added to the Bill. Clauses 16, 17, and 18, were that agreed to with verbal amendments. On clause 19 beinr , put The Duke of RICHMOND suggested the propriety of having the amendments of the Noble and Learned Lord ( Lyndhurst) .opposite., printed . . and proceeding to the consi deration of them ~n. Monday. Lord BROUGHAM said they were merely consequential. on the amendments which had been already made. Ho had suggestions to make himstAl. The Duke of ItlefrvlOND—lt was the more important that the-arriendmep,',s of the Noble and Learned Lord should be printed, beea.:ise they were sure to be carried. Lord BIOnJGHAM—There was a still weightier reason in behalf - i,t - his own amendments—because they ought to be "rii o ".l—( Laughter.) clause was agreed to, as were clauses 20, 21, 22, and 23. On clause 24 being proposed, Lord \VHARNCLIFFE rose to move some amendment which he said would occasion considerable debate, and had 'perhaps better be - postponed in consequence. Lord BROUGHAM said the question was, whether, if it were adjourned until-M on d ay , i t wou ld not occasion more dis cussion than if it were taken at once. Lord L YNDiIuRsT could promise, as far as he was con cerned, that the 'could be got through in Committee on Monday and Tuesday: Lord BROUGHAM believed it could, as they had already got through the more difficult portions of the measure. -- The House then resumed.— The - Chairman - reported pro gress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday. Their Lordships then adjourned at half-past eleven. FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS. The following were the Accounts alluded to by the CrrAx- CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER in his Financial SZatetnent of lag. night : (A. I.)—REDUCTION TAXES SINCE 111 E WAR, lirps ' • Nut. 238,517,000 TS - 6,1 1 .L1.0. 0 5,(1i1,854 ALED OR LI.IPOSEI). P , A;. ('.'ros,: N et. 1Z ePeated”.....Z 1,7..t1,0 0 Total Amount lieduclon during last Four Ycui (A.2I—TAXES REPS: 1531. Gross Net Rvpealeil £.3,1a9,0.10 £I,SSS,POO Imposed 62;,U(K) 627,00 Reduction.— 1,7:15,1:0 1,532,ft°' Reduction... 2,561,000 9(50,01;1 I epealed X 754,( 00 X 747,r et I a. posed 44 ,, 00 44,03 1531. Repea1ed....:.£2,145,1100 Imposed.. Reduction... 710,000 7030 0, :eduction... 1,0.16,000 I,Stitl, , oti Gross. Net. Tctal Reduction 16;454,001 £3,i,li l mai (A. 3.- AVER.AUE GRANTS IN SU) PLY, . Four years ending 1£321 .1;15,5P2.,.001 —le2;') IS'.?9 ----.-- 1833 Average of two years, LEM, 1835 1401;,00u (A. 4.)—EXTRAORDINARY CHARGES FOR, PRESENT YEAR. Houses of Parliament (in consequence of fire) ... ........ ....,Et39,70 Dublin Docks (lire) Danish Claims Polish Refugees tievising Barristers, I£V. 5 County Rates British Museum (Antiquities) t Education in" Slave Colonies 25,001 Dominica Hurricane C 136,000 (B. I.)—BALANCE SHEET, .Arint If: X4ti,c87,000 4.i,185,000 1-corn , Expenditure Surplus BALANCE SHEET, JULY 15:33 902,(k.'0 biome Expenditure 4 C 45.5,0(6 4 4,a31,0, 0 Surplus 1,205,000 R. 2.)—ESTIMATED INCOME AND EXPENDITURE FUR YEAR ENDING AUGUST' 5, 1635, INCOME. 1&35. Customs ;C19,183,000 Excise 1:3,t+0,000 Stamps Taxes 4,312,000 Post (Vice Miscellaneous 4 ~eco 1:;,::70,1 JOO 6,9 , 40,000 3,601,0 0 1,504),0oto 200,000 46,087,0j0 EXPENDITURE. Interest on Debt, funded and unfunded ..-C28,540,000 Miter charges on Consolidated Fund 0 Alum d Grants Estimated Income 45,5.50,000 Estimated Expenditure 4.5,550,(P00 Estimated Surplus 83 ) 000 (13.3.) -INTEREST AND MANAGEMENT ON WEST INDI A LOA N. Annual Ckarge. I l 101.,875 h,2:41 Consols . Reduced Annuity Management on ;..0 1. per Minion Charge on 15,000,(00/. 5,000,0. 01. .557,13t1 153,713 Charge on 20,000,c0ni . i ~?~,r3 EXCISE CONSUMPTIuN. • Average of three years eliding 1834. Increase. Aictions .£6,0(19,000 A:7B9 , IINi ...., l2 p2T tent, Bricks No. 1,005,410,(NlO Glass Cwt. 5 . 25,000 Hops lb. 94 ,753;0.0 6,834,000 Licences N 0.507,000 ... 20,000 Malt Bushels 31,613,1W0 1,049A:0 Paper lb. 66, , . ~ 0,10 4,65:j1.00 .........7 - 11Iillboard .....,.('wt. 44,00) - Stained Yards 7,554,003 1,283,000 ......... 17 t.oap, Hard lb. 125,733,6 ) - soft lb. 10,820,000 Dec. 40.000 not 1 per emit. Spirits ............Gallons 21,725,ot,O Tea lbs. 31,:X.3,000 5, 7 ,:,00., .....».. Is Vinegar Gallons 2,8-'2,000 The " Budget" yesterday excited very little interest, judging from the appearance of the Commons' gallery end lobby. In the former some 20 or 30 persons only were assem bled by six o'clock (it was somewhat fuller afterwards), and the latter was deserted, except by some few Members who promenaded there for the benefit of gossip and the air. In former times the gallery was crowded by noon ; sovereigns were given for front places ; and as to the lobby, it was a re gular and boisterous " Stock Exchange" for the evening. MISS MITFORD'S NEW WORK " BELFORD. REGIS."—" Miss Mitford has here put forth more of that strength which, as a dramatist, she was known to possum; wore tragic interest, deeper pathos, and a more sustained de velopement of life and character, than in any of her former works. Sh'e has given us incident, plot, and glimpses of strong conflicting influences—ambition, pride, envy, passion, and af fection, so touched as to demonstrate how they might have , been worked out on a larger scale with pre - eminent effect; and these qualities, combined with the greater earnestness of style in which they are displayed, mark this as h er b est ai mo st deeply-interesting work.' , —Athenceunt. When a Scandinavian Chief fell in battle his body .was always burnt, and wife, domestics, and war-house. were likewise consumed with him, it being right that he gltr Aid en. ter Odin's Hall properly attended, :i - ; ~ K; ~