The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-29 00:00:00

THE SUN LONDON, TUESDAY, EVENING, FEBRUARY 29, 18-18. i t ax. It is quite true that the tax was only proposed for a time ; but, under the cireurnstarces in which it was ti P q r n o_p , ei , sed, I will venture to say that no man could rea t„Tly entertain the idea that it was to be temporary. been such being the state of the case—such having the course of financial legislation—such having been_ en the unanimous acquiescence of the House in the ewal of this tax, I must say that I think it would havev been an extraordinary course to have proposed the ctizersal of the financial legislation which for the last n Years ha s b een so un a n imously sanctioned by the uOuse wad by th e c o un t r y. If we had done this, and rp . osed a renewa l o f t h e i n di rec t taxes u i eon corn and wool, and have raised the duty on sugar and timber, it he ads at once have been said that we were running our , e,. (1 against public opinion, and the express and re ,F,0.,;e4 [minion of this House.—(Elear, hear.) We ac in'uuegly proposed as our first measure to renew the be five for a limited time. Whether that time is to 7 n 7 O or three years is a question for the consideration te the Committee on the 8.11. It does not folloW that if we hvd had recourse to indirect taxation, sup rt.,()_s!og there wa s to be no change, it wouli, in a le - s p 1 4 than fire years, raise the income up to the 5 ; nOO,OOOl we should lose by taking off the income -tax. tut, even with the renewal of the income-tax as it stands, in _found there would be a considerable deficiency in the t rine; and the question comes to be how is that defi thee"). to be m a d e u p? I believe I have stated before , ila ( ? t y y opinion the existence of that deficiency would felt for a time. It was obvious that the large P a yments on ac co unt of the Kafir war and the excess of ri exeeediture would cease to appear. My Hon. hriend (lair. Ward) has stated, and I have repeated to bight,(i_ that 'th e g re a ter portion of the works in our do ckyards will be coenpletely finished in the course of ,f months, or, at most, in two years; and that atter that . " . ele the re wi ll b e no nee d f or any further expenditure ,u,n that h ea d. Th e coun try will have the benefit of `l._lese work s , w hil e it w ill be unnecessary to continue the Pctditure fo r th e m. I think, also, we may look , in a short` time, to other items for a reduction—such, for lotatance, as that from the building of the Houses Parliament. I think, therefore, we are perfectly Justified in considering the increased expenditure as nierely of a t em porary character. how then were e to provide for this temporary increase ? It would hardly have been wise, in my opinion, to impose new t axes and to d erange c ommerce and trade for a temporary ve_4!Pose• We might have proposed a per - centag e on h as isting taxation ; but I do not think the exp eriment succeeded which we made in this way before. — (Hear, hear.) It has been, in fact, a total failure. We :night have imposed it upon the assessed taxes alone ; but, lookin g a t t h e assessed taxes for the last four or five years, I find there has been a considerable falling °l r and we could not therefore depend upon a certain l e crease of revenue from imposing an additional p er. _ , ;entage upon the assessed taxes. There remained then eioesible per-centage on the income-tax, and from this source we were as certain as we can possibly be of anything future that we should derive an increase of revenue without any additional expense to the c ountr y . e knew that the whole amount imposed as an addition 7ould be received into the Exchequer. However painful was to impose this tax, I was, and still am of °Pin ion, that it would be the c hea p est mode of pro viding for the temporary emergency. There were variou s questions raised on former occasions with referenc e to t hi s t ax , one of which the Hon. Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall) proposes to raise on the Present occasion—l mean the extension of the tax to Ireland. Now, in my opini na, if this tax is t o be conti nued beyond the temporary emergency, then Ireland, as ...ell as G reat B r it a i n , oug ht to pay it.—(Loud cheers.) i esrtmember, it was distinctly stated by the la t e Mr. O'Connell, that Ireland could not bear to have su ch a es this imposed upon her. But, whether Ireland could bear such a tax under ordinary circumstances, and 'whether she could bear it as she is at present situated, a re two widely different questions. It may be that Ire land, in ordinary years, is quite able to pay this tax, but Ithink it would be equally inexpedient and un wi s e to attempt to impose it on the present occasion. Nobody Who has attended to recent events iu Ireland can fail to aee that she is still labouring under the effect of a great calami ty . If Honourable Gentlemen have referred to a Paper recently laid on the table of this House , na mel y , the return showing the amount of pcor - rate c ollected during t h e l ast two y ears , they will be aware that there nas been an enormous increase of payment on that s core, and especially during the last two month s. No uoubt they ou ; ,ht to pay for their own poor ; and it is unreasonable to expect that the people of this country , sufferin g as they are themselves, should pay fur leeee—(Hear, hear)—but, at the same time, we cannot but look at the amount of taxation they have to bear in this way ; and my belief is, that if we were to impose the Income-tax upon them at present, it would discourage the exertions which are being made by the landlords and farmers throughout that country fur the employment of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It would discourage that Upon which the future improvement of Ireland depends - -the employment of the people. If Hon. Gentlemen have not looked at that document, they will perhaps allow me to quote a few figures from it, showing the increase of these payments. In 1846, the whole amount of poor-rate paid in Ireland was only 390,0001. ;in 1847 it was increased to 970,0001. ; but if Hon. Gentle men will refer to the last two months, they will see that Whereas in the last two months of 1846 the poor-rates collected amounted to 109,0001., they amounted in the last two months of 1847, to 441,0001., or more than quadruple the former sum.—(Hear, hear.) Since that return was laid upon the table we have received a state ment showing the amount collected in January, 1847, as Compared with January, 1848. In January, 1847, the !mount collected was 52,0001. ; whereas, in Jan., 1848, it was upwards, of 190,0001., or at the rate of 2,000,0001. Per aunum.—(Hear.) I confess, then, that looking at this circumstance, and considering that they must ne cessarily continue to collect the poor-rate for the main tenance of the poor in that country, I do think that it 'would not be politic or wise to attempt to impose any further I confess pa I do men not think it would be t u n them during the wor th present year. while, be cause I believe Honourable Gentlemen would be very tench disappointed in the amount we should probably receive. I was astonished to find that the whole of Scotland yielded only 400,0001.; and I have no reason to believe that we should get as much from Ireland, because we must bear in mind that a large portion of the landed proprietors reside in this country, and neces 'oily pay income-tax already.—(Hear, hear.) The *mount we should derive from Ireland, then, I do not believe would be very large. We proposed, as I have said, to renew the income-tax for a limited time with an increase per cent. for a period of two years, in order to meet the extraordinary expenditute. I have been asked whether I will promise to take it off at the end of two years. I said, and I say again, that it would be exceedingly unwise to make any promise on the subject. -- (Laughter.) Can any one foresee what will be the s tate of this country two years henc e?— ( Hear, hear.) usta any one foresee what it will be in a much shorter Period ?—(Hear, hear.) How long is it since an Hon. Gentleman, recently arrived from France (Mr. Cobden), stateel to this Reuse that there could be no object for a revolution there ?—(Shouts of laughter.) The truth is that the wisest and best of men may be misinformed ; and I believe that not only that Hon. Gentleman, but everybody in this country, and France too, has been • lnu2h surprised at the events which have taken place there during the last ten days. — (Hear , he ar.) I could nut, therefore, undertake to say that the 5 per cent would not be renewed at the end of two years ; but I took occasion to show the House the probability that it could be so taken off. These, then, were the proposals Which we made to the House,—that the country should be called upon, for a limited time, to pay this tax in the 'banner and to the amount which for successive years they had been agreeable to do ; and, further, that they should submit for a still more limited time to an increased amount of the same kind. I cannot say that the proposal which Government made has been well received.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.) I must admit that from all quarters of the House, and from all parts of the country, we have received the most unequivocal demonstrations of the disapproval of the increase of 2 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) We have found, too, that those who on former occasions suppopted the change from indirect to direct taxation were louder in their opposition on this occasion than any others. The Hon. Member for Cocker south has given notice of his intention to propose a motion with a view of render ing the tax more fair and equal in its operation. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. F. Baring) said that the tax was unequal, but that he did not see any practicable remedy ; and I suspect that when the Hon. Member (slr. Horsman) comes to inquire into the mode of operation of the plan he proposes, he will find it as full of grose inequalities as the plan in existence. I don't say that one's first impression is not against the inequality of the tax, as at present imposed ; but I say that, taking up the matter in a perfectly impartial spirit, evils will also be found the other way. I recollect that an Hon. Gentleman, not now a Member of this /louse, but who formerly represented Kendal (Mr. Warburton), used to maintain that the present was a Perfectly just and equal rate of taxation. I mention these thing s to show that the matter, at all events, is not so Clear as to be free from doubt.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Manchester has another proposal. He pro- Poses to meet the existing deficiency by extending the Probate and legacy duty to real property. I believe there is some injustice in the mode in which the probate and legacy duties are at present imp osed; but there are many difficulties in the way of the Hon. Gentleman's Proposal, arid a great deal may be said on the other side. If these duties are to be put on an equal footing, there are other duties which would require to be pissed O n an equal footing also. There is a Bill which we are in the habit of passing annually to exempt stock in, trade; and if gentlemen who own real property were to ask u s to put that on an equal footing, I do not know how we could possibly refuse to do so in the one case as well as in the other.—(Hear, hear.) I do not give an °Pinion either one way or the other. All I wish to s ay is, that it is not quite so simple and easy a matter as Honourable Gentlemen are apt to suppose ; and that if it is to be dealt with satisfactorily we can Only do it after a long and careful inquiry, not into y One duty alone bet into many. But, whatever opinion lion. Gentlemen may entertain upon this subject, there as I have said before, a unanimous concurrence in Objecting to the additional 2 per cent. on the income tax. I still think that the proposal was one which it wculd have been for the benefit of the country to submit to. But I must say, on the part of Government, that if there 4 is one subject upon wh ich the re p resentatives of the people have a right to dictate to the Government, it is upon such an occasion.—(Hear, hear.) I have, there fore, though not without regret, to announce on the part • of the Government, that we do not mean to press the res,:lution which implies an addition to the income-tax. -- (Cheers and laughter.) I repeat that Ido it not without re gret, because I think that in the present circumstances of the country a full Exchequer is a great thing. I be very sorry to draw upon the balances, however la Lg s, which, on former o ccasion, afforded us the m eans „ instantly relieving the distress of Ireland. We pro- pose, however, that the expense of the Kafir war and the naval excess shall be defrayed from the balances of the present year. Supposing the income-tax to be continued at its present rate, this will leave a deficiency of 1,500,000/. or 2,000,000/. No doubt the balance is very high, and might bear, perhaps, to be drawn upon fur the whole amount o f the deficiency in the course of the en suin e year. But if that is to be so, if we are to rely on high balances, and the reduction of those balances in times of adversity—and no doubt it is an advantage that is derived from the existence of those high balances — then we must keep up the ordinary average of the re venue, so that if not in the course of one year, at least on the average of three or four years, the revenue may meet the expenditure. But it evidently will not be so unless the House consents to a renewal of the income tax.—(flear, hear.) I think when the Government make this concession to the popular will, as expressed by the representatives of the people in this House, they will not refuse to renew the income-tax at its present amount fur a period of three years. That I believe will be the time for which it will be necessary, and with such reductions as may be made in future years, anti with such in crease as may be expected in the revenue, we may hope that on an average it may bring the income and expen diture to an equality ; so that, although we may fall upon the balance this year, yet on the average of those three years, we may find a balance. I have in this statement put the case at its worst ; but when I make this statement I will not pledge myself that this is the course the Government will ultimately pursue.—(Hear, hear.) I must leave it open to the Government, if upon consideration they shall think fit to propose some amount of taxation which shall canalise the income and expen diture within the year. Ido not think that Honourable Gentlemen will expect that I should upon the present occasion state what the intentions of the Government may be after a full and fair consideration of the cir cumstances. That must remain for the consideration of the Government at a future time. I will only state that it is the intention of the Government now to abandon the proposed increase of the income-tax, and to ask for its renewal at its present amount for three years.—(Hear, hear.) I am sorry the opinion of the House should have led to this conclusion. I believe it would in many respects have been better that the increased burden should be submitted to; whether the emergency can be met by a diminution of expendi ture or by a change of taxation in some other way, is for the future consideration of the Government; but what I do ask of this house is, that they will consent to the first resolution I shall move in Committee, which is to renew the present income-tax for a further period of three years. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means. Mr. lIUME would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether be thought he had made any communication to the House which would, in any way, alter the opinion that had been formed both by himself (Mr. Hume) and others in that House and out of it, upon the plan pro posed by the Government? The only modification of the original plan was, that instead of proposing five per cent. for two years, the Government would be satisfied with the present tax for three years; but admitting all the inequality and injustice of the tax, the Right lion. Gentleman proposed no other modification. How could he expect that that House would renew a tax so unjust — (Hear, hear) —so unequal in its operations, as had been admitted on all hands—(Hear, hear) —under the idea of its being merely temporary? The Right Honour able Baronet who introduced the tax asked, two years ago, for its renewal. The House thought it right to maintain it in consequence of the change of tax ation; and, upon that ground, he (Mr. Hume) agreed to it. lie did so because an object had been attained of immense importance to the country. It was at first submitted to under the idea of an experiment in pro ceeding from indirect to direct taxation. First one Chancellor of the Exchequer and then another said, " Only agree to this, and by and by you shall have the inequalities adjusted."—(Hear.) He thought the House ought not to concur in renewing the tax at all—(Hear, hear) —he said at all—after the language of the Right lion. Baronet, who said that there was little chance of any redemption of that tax, and that he would not meddle with the votes ; and also after what had been stated by the Noble Lord the other night, when he spoke of the Committees about to be appointed, and placed them on a very different footing from that which he (Hr. Hume) had expected. The Noble Lord told the House that those Committees would not have to consider the votes for the navy, army, and ordnance, as those would rest with her Majesty's Ministers, and that they would be appointed only to ascertain what number of men should be kept; taking it, therefore, out of the power of those Committees to have any effect towards a re duction, and more espectially, when they were told that, out of the 54,000,0001. of taxation, only 18,000,000/ could be touched. There were many items charged upon the consolidated fund that ought to be considered and taken off; they ought to undergo a full revision; and when they were told that there was to be no reduction in the amount of the troops, and when the Noble Lord himself admitted that whilst in 1833, 1834, and 1835, the number of men in the navy, army, and ordnance was sufficient, and that we had nu .r 195,000 men, and 6,000 men coming from India, exclusive of 10,000 pensioners, the dockyard battalions, the coast guard, yeomanry, and .• pooce, making in all nearly 250,000 in the army, to talk of renewing that tax for three years, or even for one year, without expressing any decided determination to reduce and bring down the expenditure, was perfect folly. In the last year, had the Right Hon. Baronet in stituted any inquiry into the expenditure? Twice in the year had he (Mr. Hume) suggested to the Government the propriety of making a strict inquiry into the votes before the House, and if there were anything which more than another he would counsel the Government, it was to make a reduction instanter.—(Elear, hear.) After what had occurred recently in France, from the conduct he believed, of a few, might it not be supposed that if we kept up a large and increased army, it was done in order to be prepared to annoy them? But let them show the French people that they had confidence in them—and after the excellent declaration of the Noble Lord, that the people of France were to be allowed to form their Government as they pleased, and without in terference, let them reduce their army some 40,000 or 50,000 men; that would be the best way of maintaining peace. It was very bad counsel in the Government to think that they were to be allowed to go on in the way they proposed, after the clear and undoubted declara tion that had been made with regard to France.(Hear, hear.) Let them reduce the expenditure—let them equalise the legacy duty upon the commercial and agri cultural interests—and let them lay the burdens fairly and equally upon all. Upon that ground he did not think the House of Commons would pass any such measure as was now proposed, even for one year; and he was sure that if they were to allow the Government to draw on the present occasion from the balance in the Exchequer, which was now 8,500,0001., they would find the public drawn into exactly the same situation they were in when the same Right lion. Gen tlemen were in office before ; at that time they found in the Exchequer a balance of 8,000,0001. or 9,000,0001., and they left, only 1,500,0001. He wanted the Right Hon. Gentleman to believe that the Government would not possess the confidence of the country if they pur sued the course they proposed; and after the declara tion that they had made, he should certainly give a direct negative against the plan, in order that they might propose a budget which was better suited to the state of the country. Mr. OSBORNE said, that as far as his experience or knowledge of the feelings of a very considerable consti tuency went, he did not think they would be inclined to receive the statement that had been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman that evening with the great gra tification which that House had evinced.—(Hear, hear.) It was not so much the additional two per cent. of this income tax that the industrious classes of the country objected to—(Hear, hear)—it was the principle of the tax; and when the Right Hon. Gentleman told the House and the country that he was fortified by the dictum of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was almost impracticable to make this tax equal, he said it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Ministers to endeavour to re-adjust it in some way that should make it less odious a nd more just than it was at that moment.—(Hear, hear.) The tax that was proposed to be imposed was iniquitous, odious, and unjust, and it showed a miserable poverty of invention on the part of any Chancellor of the Exchequer to think that the tax into which the House bad been entrapped by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, who told them that it would be merely for three years, and that what they lost in the tax would be mode up to them by the tariff—(Hear) —could not be more fairly adjusted, when the Right Hon. Gentleman who proposed the tax had offered them inducements to pass it in a somewhat de ceptious manner, but it became that House to consider whether under such circumstances it would agree to it now even for one year. As far as he was concerned, he should take the same course that he took in 1845. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that at that time there was no opposition to the tax. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to be as ig norant on that subject as lie proved himself on the ap appointmect of a Select Committee, for he (Mr. Osborne) found that in the year 1845 he moved that the measure be reed a second time that day six months, and he was on that occasion supported by six Members of the present Government.—(Hear, hear.) At the time that Hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies made one of his most able two hours speeches, and voted against the income-tax. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hawes) said, " The income-tax was injurious to the country, as well to the labouring classes as to those who had to contribute to it."—(Elear, hear.) Mr. C. Buller, Viscount Ebrington, Colonel Anson, and Mr. Sheil, all voted against it, and the latter Hon. Gen tleman even opposed it on the score of religion.—(Hear, hear:) The Right Hon. Baronet, therefore, was bound to have told the House that opposition was made to it in 1845, and he (Mr. Osborne) hoped the same Right Hon. Gentleman would do the same now, upon the score that it would be injurious to the working classes as well as to those by hem it was paid, and that they would resist the preposition for renewing the tax even for one year. He certainly should feel it his duty, as an independent Member of Parliament, to divide the House on the prin ciple of this tax, looking at it, as he did, as one of the most odious taxes a Minister could impose, and to show the country it was a principle to which he was opposed. Mr. CARDWELL hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would not think it necessary to call on the House et that time to express its opinion on this subject.— (Cheers.) When the Noble Lor d made his financial statement, ten days were thought a reasonable period for the House and the country to consider it; and now, after the lapse of that time, the Right Honourable Baronet had made a proposition differing from the former in so many important respects that he (Mr. Cardwell) thought they should have a proper time to consider that also. Considering the manner in which the public feeling had been expressed upon the subject, and the universal interest it had excited, it was due to that House and to the country that they should have --- a sufficient time to give it full consideration, and he trusted the Right Honourable Baronet would accede to that proposal. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in answer to the appeal made by the Honourable Gentle man the Member for Liverpool, the force of which he admitted, he was perfectly willing to postpone the fur ther consideration of this subject to a future day. There were considerations which would justify the Honourable Gentleman in the appeal he made; but he hoped that no long time would be asked for. It was desirable that the House should proceed to the consideration of the ques tion on as early a day as possible; and he would, there fore, propose to adjourn the further discussion until Friday next. Mr. GLADSTONE said he rejoiced that the Right Hon. Gentleman had acceded to the request of the Hon. Member for Liverpool; but a difficulty still remained with him (Mr. Gladstone), and which was, perhaps, shared by some other Hon. Members. He did not clearly understand from the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet what was then actually before the House. The Right Hon. Baronet said, as he understood him, that a largo amount in the balance sheet of the present year had to be provided for out of the balance in the Exche quer; that the votes for the Kafir war and the navy excess were to come out of that balance; and it'ter that, as he understood, there was a deficit of a sum of be tween 1,500,000/. and 2,000,000/.; but he did not under stand the Right Hon. Baronet clearly to explain to the House whether it was his intention to meet the defi ciency from the remaining balance in the Exchequer, or by additional taxation. He asked these questions, because the House would be in a position of difficulty and disadvantage in the consideration of this question of the income-tax, unless they had before them the whole plan of the Government for the finances of the year when they were called upon to vote.—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that with respect to the question whether the Govern ment proposed to defray the vote for the Kafir war and that for naval excess out of the existing balances of the Exchequer, the amount of that balance on the sth of January was 8,400,0001., and, supposing the income of the present quarter to equal the expenditure, there would be on the sth of April a balance of about 7,000,0001.; he had estimated the difference between the ordinary income and expenditure for the present year at 1,500,0001. or 2,000,0001., and had said, that if it were practicable to defray that sum out of the balances of the Exchequer, no new taxation would be required ; and he had observed, that he thought such a course might be possible without diminishing the balances to an inconvenient extent, but, at the same time, that it was a course he was unwilling to adopt, stating his opinion that it was desirable to maintain a full balance in the Exchequer. Here he might state what had been the balances in the Exchequer on the sth of April, dur ing some years past, and the House would then see that when the extraordinary expenses had been defrayed the balance would not be reduced to such an amount as to entail inconvenience. At the same time, he did not say that this was a course he recommended, or one he would pledge himself to follow. The Right Hon. Gentleman here read an account of the balances in the Exchequer as follows: — In 1839, the balance on the sth April was £497,000 1540 ... ..• ... 1,007,000 1841 ... •.. ••• ... ... 874,000 1842 ... ••• ••• ... ... 857,000 1843 ... ••• ••• ... ... 956.000 1844 ..• ••• ... ... ... 2.235,000 1845 ... ••-, ... ... -.. 6,257,000 1846 ..• ••• ... ... ... 6,507,000 1847 ... ••• ... ... ... 5,459,000 Jan. 5, 1848 ... ... ••• ... ... 8,400 000 As he had before said, if the income for this quarter equalled the expenditure, the balance on the sth of April would be about 2 000,0001. ; but supposing a deduction of 1,500,0001. were made from that sum on account of the expenditure, then the balance remaining on the sth of April, 1849, would be about 5,500,0001. But he re peated, ho reserved to the Government full power to come down to the house on a subsequent occasion for the purpose of proposing some other mode of meeting the deficiency. Mr. WAKLEY recommended the Government to withdraw the resolutions altogether. (Hear, hear.) They were founded on the budget of the Noble Lord, and that budget was now a bubble that had burst; it was exploded—gone. For what were the chief propositions of that budget? First, that the expenditure was to be maintained; secondly, that there was to be an increase of it; thirdly, that the income-tax was to be continued for five years; and, fourthly, that it was to be increased to 5 per cent. for the first two of those five years. But it seemed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had been shuffling over his money bags, and had found that, after all, he could really pay the current expenditure of the year.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right, Hon. Gentleman had found sufficient means in some odd corner, and did not require increased taxation. Now the budget was gone, it was assuredly not wise to consider further the resolutions the Noble Lord had proposed. A few years ago he (Mr. Wakley) had thought he had made the discovery that the Whigs were made of materials which admitted of compression, and it appeared that on this occasion, as heretofore, they had yielded—wisely, as he thought —to the public voice. If they had not yielded now, they must at some future day; for the English public had never been more resolved upon anything than they were not to allow the impost proposed by the Ministry. —(Cheers.) He asked the Noble Lord, therefore, to re consider the circum , tances of the country, and what was the condition of the labouring population and taxpaying classes of the country, and to go over the subject again and again, and see if it were really not possible to dis cover such means of reduction as should give to the public real and substantial relief.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted now whether the proposition would be received to continue the property and income-tax for the next three years.—(Hear, hear.) That proposition had been originally submitted to by the House with alacrity and cheerfulness, because it had been believed that by pro posing a certain amount of direct taxation the indus trious classes might be relieved from a most unjus species of impost upon the necessaries of life; but at the same time it had been viewed only in the light of a temporary expedient.—(Hear, hear.) It had not been supposed that at the end of every three years a continuance of the tax would be demanded, or that at the end of six years it would be proposed for five years more, and that with an increase. Tho Noble Lord could not be aware of the condiiion of the people of this country. He assured him that a feeling of impatience was rising and spread ing over the kingdom under what appeared to him to be the bad and unjust legislation of that House. There was growing discontent out of doors which would not be easily controlled unless the House altered their practice. The Government had actually told the House of their encouragement to profligate expenditure; tire Hon. Gen tleman (the Secretary to the Admiralty) had lately taunted them with it, and this very night the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that a great difficulty he had to encounter WAS to combat the extravagance of that House.—(Hear, hear.) It was time, then, to apply such a pressure as would have the effect of most materially reducing the expenditure. The Right Hon. Gentleman had already, it appeared, discovered that some reductions might be made, but was it not strange that the responsibility of a dministration should devolve upon Committees of that House? When had that been done before? —( llear, hear.) After the budget bad been declared, it was to be thrown upon two Committees of the House to decide whether. .or not reduction could be made in the public departments. This was something new to him (Mr. Wakley), and he deemed - it a dangerous course. — (Hear, hear.) The Government would choose their own Committee, and then he supposed that that Com mittee was to gag that House on all that related to the public expenditure. The cry would then be, " Oh, this is the recommendation of your own Committee, who fully and most patiently investigated every branch of the subject up stairs." He for one would be bound by no su ch conditions--(Hear)—and he besought the Noble Lord to withdraw his resolutions altogether, and to post. pone the question to a future day, so that the Government might, upon its own responsibility, reconsider the whole subject, and come down to the House with a budget to which they would adhere, for this state of uncertainty, when a financial scheme was propounded one night and abandoned another, was most injurious to commerce, and created great confusion and inconvenience out of doors.—(Hear, hear.) Before sitting down, he must shortly refer to what the Noble Lord had said daring the early part of the evening in reply to his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had said that it was not the intention of the Goeernmentto in terfere or meddle in any way with what was going on in a sister country.—(Great cheering.) He assured the Noble Lord that whatever the dissatisfaction which had been roused out of doors; by his budget-and proposal to increase the income-tax, his declaration of that night night vreuld be hailed with universal joy.—(Renewed cheering.) He himself had never heard a declaration which had produced stronger or more ardent feelings of gratification in his own. mind, and he was convinced that 1 the satisfaction at what the Noble Lord had said would be universal.—(Cheers.) Sir H. VERNEY suggested that important savings might be effected in certain departments of the military service. For the last thirty years in some towns in the country there were militia officers receiving pay, and there were barrack masters and recruiting officers in many places discharging duties which might be perfectly well performed by one officer. But the evil of the sys tem was that the army, instead of being consolidated under one head, was regulated by different departments —the engineers depending upon one great public officer, and the line or guards upon another. He begged the attention of the Government to the reductions which might be effected in this department. With regard to the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester for tax ing landed property, all be (Sir H. Verney) desired for landed proprietors and farmers—for their interests were identified—was fair play and equal burdens, and he re gretted that the Committee moved for some years ago by the Hon. Gentleman now Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Ward) to inquire into the peculiar burdens affect ' ing land had not been granted, for if it had the result would have been to show that the landed interest was most unjustly taxed. Mr. T. F. BARING would have postponed what he had to say to a future occasion, but after the remarks of the Hon. Member for Finsbury he desired to express his belief that the conduct of the Government would be regarded in a very different light to that suggested by the Hon. Member.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the country would be exceedingly grateful to the Go vernment for the course they had taken, and that they had exercised a wise discretion in giving way.—(llear, hear.) The country ha d a right, with respect to tax ation as to all other subjects, to have an opportunity of expressing an opinion, an d he did not think it was very fair on the part of those Members of the House who were supposed to represent popular opinion to be the first to taunt the Government with giving way to popular opinion.—(Hear, hear.) lie wished his Right lion. Friend would answer a question with respect to these balances in the Exchequer. Taking the c Ise ot the navy excess, for instance, he b lieved it was per fectly fair, there having been a greater expenditure this year, but a large surplus from the balancces of former years, that the differs nee eheuld be paid coat of those balances. It appeared that about 2,5e0,00e/. lia I been added to these b dances, and it would b> hard to say that in a season of distress the excess should not be paid out of those balances. He did not see that it was an improper principle to do so. The Government were quite right iu taking authority from Parliament, but lie apprehended that the money was spent and gene, anal that the only practical cif ct woule be that they would replace the money in the balances, hut that they would not diminish those balances one farthing from what they were at present. With respect t the Kotir war, the same argument applied—that, in reality, that vote would not diminish the balances; that the money was spent, and would bo repaid when the balances were increased. With respect to the attempts to ridicule the a ppointment of a Committee, he must observe that the expenees of the country had largely increased, and he did not be- Here that any system of revenue could go on with ex penditure thus continually increasing.—(hear.) Ile was perfectly convinced that it was a Government only which could make any reduction; a Committee might inves tigate and recommend, but it was in the po w er of the Government alone to Sf..ct any tangible reselt ; and he would therefore earnestly impress upon his Right llon. Friend the importance, before the termination of the session, of setting diligently to work to see in what way and in what direction he could reduce.—(dear, hear.) He would not ask. air he did not wish him to reduce the establishments of the country ; lie wonl i not have suggested anything of that kind at the last time this matter was under discussion ; and the events which had since occurred did net rendee such a course at all more advisable.—(Licar, hear.) There was no d eibt, however, that efficiency might be preserved with some reductions. He did not meal to say there was any job binge or that the Government was at all desirous Hof ex tending its patronage, but a saving might be wade .vith better arrangements, and there were many th'ngi which they might postpone this year, if they did not do away with them altogether. He knew that his objections to diminishing the establishments would not be popular. There was no doubt that the ex penditure was very large, and that the increase was very large ; the increase, in point of fact, this year, in cluding the militia, amounting to 1,000,000/. ; but, at the same time, if his Right lion. Friend, having done his best to reduce the expenditure, found that he was 1,500,0001. short, and thought it necessary, for the secu rity of the finances of the country to propose additional taxation, he (Mr. Baring) would not shrink from giving his support to the Government.—(dear, hear.) It would not be prudent, just now, to leave the finances in any position which would admit of doubt.—(Bear, hear.) With regard to the income-tax ho would only say that he did not think they would ever be able to make it a fair tax —(lcer, hear.) If they taxed income it would be out of their power to tax equitably ; but that belief did not deter him from an attempt to make it as equi table as possible. lie would not refuse his vote for the income-tax, but he did hope they would be able to arrive at some modification of it which would make it a fairer tax than it was at present. They could not do without such an impost ; it was ridiculous to suppose they could otherwise find that a ccommodation of 5,000,000/. which they wanted ; but in in ainatening this system it was their duty to endeavour to glee to it e character of the utmost possible fairness. lie trusted that there would be some such a modification, and he would then be pre ' pared, as in 1845, to vote for the cotsahmance of the tax for three years. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reolicd to the question which had been asked. Ills impression was that the sums to which his Right lion. Friend had referred were not included in the balances, and that, for instance, the expenses of the Kafir war were met, prac tically, by drafts from the Treasury and the Coinunis• sariat. This money was stated as in the whole expendi ture up to this time, and the balance of 8,400,0001. would be diminished by the amount of those sums. Mr. COBDEN said —Although, Sir, I am very glad that her Majesty's Ministers have withdrawn the in creased income-tax, still, as I represent a numerous constituency, with which I have corresponded OR this subject, I think it right to say that I do not think it possible for any Government to maintain permanently an income- tax of 3 per cont., or of any other per centage, if it should be, as it now is, in the shape of a tax on precarious income.—(hear, hear.) I believe that the present proposition has rendered that utterly impossible for the future. The announcement made by her Majesty's Ministers has had the effect of raising this question throughout the country, and of causing it to be discussed in a way which it before escaped ; it has thrown the public mind essentially on the subject of taxation, with a view of devising more equitable means for the future, and I believe the agita tion will end, not merely in the income-tax being altered, but in a complete change in our fiscal system.—(Hear, hear.) I heard to-night, for the first time, from my lion. Friend beside me, the Member for South Lanca shire (Mr. Brown), of a new association which has been formed in Liverpool, for the purpose of enforcing a more equitable mode of raising the revenue, and it seems to me that nothing could be more proper or more legiti mate than the object of this association. But Ido not see that we have got to the end of our difficulties at all. —(Hear, hear.) It does not seem to me that the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has come to us with any substitute for this tax. He proposes in his difficulty to take the money from his reserved - fund, and, if the difficulty were only temporary, he probably might do so without any serious inconvenience. I think, however, I gathered from his statement that we are in a condition of progressive and increasing difficulty. —(hear, hear.) I think he told us that already there is upon this quarter a deficiency of 400,0001., although two months of the period have not yet passed, as compared with the corresponding quarter of last year. I appre hend, therefore, that it is a growing deficiency with which we have now to deal. And this brings me to the point upon which I have declared hefore, that you will have to reduce your expenditure by some means or other to meet your income. —(Hear, hear.) I differ altogether from the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. F. Baring), who tells us that we must confine our retrenchment to the non effective services. The Chancellor of the Excheq ier has told us that the non-effective services amount only to 3,501),000/., and that the effective services amount to 8,530,000/e and if we are only to retrench in the former direction, I will not be a party to such a fraud on the country as to lead them to suppose that there will be any material reduction. Mr. BARING oy arl explained.es establishments. lestablishment;ishinn He had meant to say only that he was opposed to any reduction which would de crease the efficiency of the services. Mre COBDEN continued—l still maintain that y ou must reled eyour I d vv eo ill n h o e t re co al n i fi u n d e e ts. and l to some fmlfatlnoeutche remarks, n appeari ng t tue very ominous, which from several gentlemen who spoke on the subject of what had happened in a neighbouring country. The Noble Lord at the heat of the Government, the other night, adduced the example of Fitt as a justification of the course he was taking. He mentioned, that in 1792 Pitt was so confident of peace that he proposed to reduce our armaments; and that, nevertheless, in 1793, a war broke out. In reply, I said that that was true, but that France passed through a social revolution in 1793 and that she had now no so vial revolution to pass through; that she had now no privi leged classes, no large properties in few hands, no established church, and no gre at mass of property to level or to tax which was ex-mpted from taxation before. But I will candidly confess that when I spoke t hus o f a social revolution I was i ot prepared for the political revo lution whic h has since occurred. I was a no t prepared f or the ins anity of Minister, nor for the madness of a Monarch— (Hear, hear) —whom we lead always supposed to possess great sagacity and great prudence. I mean to say, that if France had been Eng land, and that if our Ministers and Monarch had first corrupted our Parliament, and then denied to English men the right of a free assembly at a public dinner, we should hale had our political revolution too.—(Hear, hear.) Bat, taking_ Franca as we now find it, Ido not go with that Hon. Gentleman in this House who several times said that events there had pointed out to us how necessary it was to be cautious in reducing our establishments, or in allowing our Exchequer to be come impoverished. Why, in ordinary affairs—and I like to bring these matters down to the common-sense maxims of life, and you may be sure we shall never prosper until we do aPPIy such homely maxims to national Government —(Hear, hear)—if we see a neigh bour quarrelling with himself or with his household, we immediately conclude that he is not likely to be in a position to come and quarrel with us.—(Laughter.) In the same way, if you were in a s hi p - o f- war at sea , and you met an enemy's ship, the crew of which were in a state of mutiny, you would no t begreatly alarmed lest they should attack em. —(Laughter.) If the Govern ment in this country is desirous to avo id a collision with France, it is perfectly easy for England. to do so, for I will venture to say that England is the last country in the world that France will think of' attacking.—(liear, hear.) I would add, however, and I make the remark with regret, I do believe that, unless the people of this country take this question into their own hands, there is danger of our being involved in n war with France. I believe that if it be left to a Foreign Minister, or to the clubs and coteries of I.OlldOR, and if the Spirit manifested in this House be to 100 Colthe State of Franca as an excuse for expense, the peop of this Country will be led, step by step, first to alienation, then to a dispute, and ultimately to a collision, and we may then be involved in a war, the fruits of which will be similar to those—viz., debt and heavy taxation—which result e d f rom t h e l ast lengthened hostilities. I therefore take this opportunity, and I do not hesitate to avow what opinion, of ealling on o f what is impending if they do not take the matter into their awn hatless. We are not going to war with France again to maintain despotic powers in any part of the warld.—(Cheer s .) If France came to molest us lam afreid I have not arrived at that point, or that I am so much of a Q.ialter, as to say that I would not resist—(Laug hter) —b ut I say, unless France molests us, and I speak the predominant opinion of England, we must leave France idone.—(Cheers ) I would, to conclude my remarks, only , venture to suggest to the Government, that as untillriday is not a very long time to take the opinion of the country on this amended income-tax, and as me' Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Manchester (Mr. Bright) hag a notice of motion for the equalization of the probate and legacy duties, and my Hon. Friend (the 'Member for Coventry) another motion for securing a distinction in the tax upon fixed and upon varying income, I hope a wee k at least will be granted us for the consideration of the propo sition.—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL. —The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Cardwell) asked if this debate should be adjourned and not proceeded with this evening. My Right lion. Friend immediately acquiesced in the suggestion ; but I must say that it could be fairer if the House did one of two things—;either to adjourn the proposition and not debate it, or to debate it and allow th-' Government to ' c. , me to some positive conclusion.—(Loud cries of "Hear.") I do not think it is vita fair to spend the whole evening i n attaching the measures of the Government and at the same time to say, " We wish to adjourn the debate to i;riday."—(llear, hear.) I should hardly feel called :pen to say a word more, after the observations I made ia an early part of the evening in reply to the Hon. Aletnber for Montroie, were it not for what has just cAllen from the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding. That Honourable Gentleman, after what I remarked to-night—and I believe he must admit that his prophecy was not a very successful one—(Laughter)—has tried to excite a suspicion, and to induce those in this House, and perhaps Close out of (hors, to think that I was not sincere in the declaration I made, and that when I intimated we did not moan to interfere with any disposal of her own insti tutions which France might choose to make, I still meant we were to be led by some "coteries and clubs" to go to war with that nation, because she had adopted some paricular form of government. Now, I can only reiterate what I said before, that it is not the intention of the Gove. nment to interfere, in any way whatever, with the settlement France may think propsr to make with respect to her own Government.—(Cheers.) Our only interest in that settlement is the interest of neighbours and friends, and all we wish is that the institutions France may adopt shall tend as much as possible to her Own prosperity.—(Cheers.) I may, perhaps, be per mitted to add that, of course, I do nut believe England would reuse to perform any of those sacred duties of hospitality which she has performed at all times to the san•quts • •hed—(Cheers) -- whoe ver the y were, whether of extreme Royalist opinions, of moderate opinions, or of .ottreme liberal opinions. Those duties of hospitality have made this country the asylum for the unfortunate ; and I, for one, will never consent that we should neglect them.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. I)ISRAELi said he was not one to carry on a g eerille warfare with the Government after the post ponement which had been conceded by the Right lion. 13 tronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He must, however, observe that the nation lived in an age of revolution, and that while on the other side of the Channel a leading member of the senate had declared his adhesion to the regency, and yet in the same day had declared in favour of a republic; they had in those days a budget promulgated by one official—a second was intimated from another source, and probably a third might be submitted to the consideration of' the Legislature. Seven years ago there had been a deficit of 2,500,000/. in the revenue, but since that time, though abundant sources of revenue had been realised, a simi lar deficit existed. One of the items was that 600,0001. ,eas required in the navy estimates for the packet ser vice. Now be (Mr. Disraeli) wanted to know what was the clear annual revenue derived from the Post- office deperteient. It was said to amount to 900,0001.. but still it was ut.explained. Indeed, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer acknowledged that there was a great and inde fensible expenditure of the revenue of the nation, and he had thrown the whole odium of that lavish expendi ture upon the Commons House of Parliament, instead of upon the Government of which he was a member. The Right Hon. Gentleman who filled the chair of the House ought to vindicate the assembly against such an aspersion.—(llear, hear.) But the Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire had announced a new league—% new combination to obtain a reform of the fiscal regulations of the country. This was a very alarming announcement, especially when it was re membered what the former confederation of which the Hon. Member was the head had accomplished. It could not be forgotten that ho had changed the minds and intentions of the then Ministry, and he (Mr. Dis reel!) could not but think that there was much mischief in the shell with which the country was now threatened. And he could trot help believing that when the electors of the West Riding were appealed to by the Hon. Member who now urged the reform of fiscal regulations they would pause to inquire into the effects of their ''ollowing the previous counsel and advice of the Honourable Gentleman on the subject of commercial re form. Would not this association lead to a fruit lees, barren, and uprofitable agitation ? (Hear, hear.) But when the Legislature was called upon to raise two or three miserable millions of deficiency, let them remember the evidence given before the Import Duties Committee, by one who was the foundation of modern legislation, and who had induced one of their ablest statesmen to take his base as his rule—he alluded to the evidence of the Hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Macgregor), who before that Committee had declared that if the corn and provision laws were repealed there would be an increase of revenue of more than 100,000,000/. This statement would be found at page 68 of the voluminous blue book. And yet, with this promise, there was a deficit of 2,500,0001. now, as before, to be provided for. When the lion. Member for the West Riding declared that he was prepared again to raise the standard of agitation, he wished to know whe ther they were to fall without a struggle, and who would be the enemy to be encountered. The Hon. Member stood as the supporter of a bankrupt Exchequer, aid has appealed to a revolutionary nation. Free trade had proved to be a great exaggeration. These were humili ating circumstances to bear in mind, and ho deeply de plored such a course of proceeding. With regard to the proposed income-tax, it was a war tax, and ought to be touched very delicately by the Commons house of Par liament. Me. MACGREGOR denied that he had been the author of the measures of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, to whom belonged the credit of the commercial reforms which had been carried out. With regard to his (Mr. Macgregor's) evidence before the Import Duties Committee, there was not one word which he wished to blot out. Mr. BRIGHT said ho felt bound to congratulate the Government on the change in their financial policy. It was a very wholesome thing that tho Government did not set themselves in opposition to so strong an expres sion of the public feeling as had been manifested since Friday week —(llear, hear.) Let them bear in mind that the country had differed with them very materially on two points,—as to the increase of the tax, and as to the omission of any discrimination in the way in which it was levied. lie hoped that on Friday the Government would he prepare./ to make some such discrimination. He be lieved there was a great disposition in the country to sub • mit to a considerable portion of the taxes being raised directly; they should not only be direct, but also equal and just. Every one admitte i that the income-tax, as heretofore levied, had not been equal and just ; and hence the dissatisfaction that was felt with it. The /louse must have been amused at seeing a county Mem tel., the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) come forward and reiterate sophiems with respect to revenue and taxation such as the weavers of Lancashire and Yorkshire would be ashamed to utter. —(Hear.) There was a time when that Hon. Member and his party might have sat on the Ministerial benches, if they had chosen ; what would they have done in the last two years ? Would they have suspended the corn law or not ? If they had suspended it, would they have imposed the duties again before the Ist of March next ? —(Hear. hear.) Why, the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn had told the present Government that they had not relaxed the restrictions soon enough, and he actually blamed them for not sending to foreign countries and buying large stores so as to bring in more corn than had been brought in. The effect of the suspension had been an import of 16 millions of quarters of grain in 16 months. Would the Hon. Member for Buckingham shire have kept out that quantity of grain, and thereby caused i. me il h ? is co untrymen to be now uM. DISRAELI—It would ha ve come in. s gin m th:: li i o r n g s ra o graves Mr. BRIGHT—Then the result would have been the same as now. Did the Honourable Member then complain that it had not come in in the right month or week, or in the right ships? The lion. Members opposite had been clearly mistaken in their enormous estimate of the losses the agricultural body would e ustain.—(tiear, hear.) It was notorious that for the last eighteen months the most prosperous part of the community had been the cultivators and possessors of land. It had been alleged that all the gold would leave the country and would go to build manufactories abroad. But the country which had taken the largest portion of our gold, the United States, had taken twice or thrice the quantity of our manufactures that it did be fore. Thus all the prophecies of lion. Gentlemen opposite had proved utterly unsubstantial. Neither the league nor the lion. Member for Tamworth had assumed to regulate the seasons ; but the recent famine had set the seal to the condemnation of the protectionist policy. For any one to stand up now and defend the corn laws was the greatest assurance he had ever known.—(Cheers.) He did not believe that a return to the old policy would ever be demanded, even by the Buckinghamshire far- mers—certainly not by the weavers of Yorkshire and Lancashire.—(Bear, hear.) Such a proposal would raise a greater storm of indignation than the increase of the income-tax or anything else.—(Cheers.) He should postpone his motion referring to the probate and legacy duties until the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer should again propose an addition to the taxation of the country. If the probate and legacy duties were looked into they would be found to involve the grossest injustice ; and though the people might not object to pay the necessary expenses of the Govern ment, the crying injustice with which the taxes had been levied for many years past demanded a speedy remedy. Mr. BANKES dented that the Hon. Member for Manchester bad correctly represented the prophecies of the Protectionists. They had said that the first parties to complain of the free-trade delusions would be the operatives and manufacturers themselves. lied not the prophecy been fulfilled?--(Hear, hear.) He doubted that the prosperity of the agriculturists was so great as that Hon. Member had alleged; for they, in common with other classes, had expressed alarm at the threatened increase of the income-tax. It would be well for the lion. Member for Glasgow to remember, if examined before a Select Committee in futare, that it was an ex tremely serious, matter to give evidence on such subjeuence cts, whereby the acts of the Leg islature might be infld. Now that the budget was to be re-modelled, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had reserved to himself the right of proposing additional taxes if necessary, let the douse reserve to itself the right of not voting the sup plies until they knew what those taxes were. lie should take the opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Gentle man on Friday night what those additional taxes would be, and he hoped the answer would be ready; for hitherto all their discussion had been fruitless. The a pp dntment of the C ommittee was a most unha re ppy cedent; it shifte d the res p onsibility from Ministers; and p before he served on such Committee he should wish to know what the Ministerial plans really were. Mr. F. O'CONNOR was happy to hear that public opinion had operated on the Ministry; but in this shift ing and changing, they had split on the old rock of an empty exchequer. More than once the country had seen the Whigs come into office with •it full exchequer, and leave it with an empty one.—(Hear, hear.) They were looking to a permanent tax to meet an incidental outlay; for all the causes assigned for the increased taxation had been incidental ones. lie did not believe the Govern- ment would have been able to carry the increased income tax. The H moerible Gentleman entered into the (let Ids of some of the items in the budget, and contended that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had over-estimated the charge for the national debt. With a starving population in Ireland, they ought not to listen to any increase of taxation. The Honourable Member for \lauehester had told the Route that the United states had (I , W:ded their demand for our manufac tures; but he should like to know how much the working people had been benefited by that. Re believed that it free trade in corn had Iva been passed, wheat would never have reached eighty shillings a quarter; it would have come in just as fast, being always attracted to the best and richest market. The Chan cellor of the Exchequer could not suppose that he would he abbe to came down to the House again and demand additional taxes. It seemed the income-tax was to be extended to Ireland. He did not pity the Irish landlords in the least, who had been so ready to dip their hands into the purse of England.—(Laughter.) After alluding to his " settlements" in Gloucestershire and Worcester shie, the Hon. Gentleman recommended the Chancellor of the Exchequer to buy up the four millions of Long Annuities terminating in 1859-60, now selling at eight years' purchase, and alleged that a saving of upwards of a million might be effucted. He regretted that they had not more able men on the Treasury benches to look into these things. We lived in new times, and required new men to govern us. While all other sciences were advancing, was the science of legislation to stand still ? Colonel suvraoßP was glad the Ministers had harked back," and he would recommend them to be careful how they put to sea without a compass.— (Laughter.) But he rose merely for the purpose of denying the assertion of his Right Ilon. Relative — (Laughter) —that the prepesition of the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth for the con- tinuance of the income-tax had been universally as rented to by the House. He had given it every opposi. Mr. MUNTZ advised her Majesty's Government no to be led away by the statement of the Right Hon Gen tleman the Member for Portsmouth, that the limitation of the income-tax to 3 per cent. would be received with general satisfaction by the country. He believed that the country was decidedly opposed to the income tax of 3 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) The Government were not safe when they proposed the 5 per cent. tax, and he was not sure that they were quite safe now. There was a strong feeling against the tax, not because it was one on property, but because it was one on income, and because it was unjust, unequal, and inquisitorial. He did not believe the present Government, or any other Govern ment, would he able to perpeteate this tax.—(llear, hear.) He had strongly opposed the continuance of this tax in 1845. Ho very much doubted that trade and commerce would so revive as to justify the expectations of the Right Honourable Gentleman as to an increase of revenue. lie had no right to expect any such increase, because the export trade was daily becoming less. The inference drawn from the year 1845-6 was not founded on sound ground, becaese the trade of those years was a consignment trade of a particular charac ter, and a large portion of it was not paid for, and never would be paid for. With respect to payments out of the balances, what was to be done if there were more demands than the Right Hon. Gentleman contemplated ? The Bank would have to make up the deficiency, or the dividends could not be paid. Coming events were casting their shadows before, and circumstances would become worse if a great change were not made. Mr. MITCHELL did not think the Right Hon. Gen tleman was justified in assuming that trade and com merce would so revive as to make up the deficiency of the revenue. It was undeniable that the events in France would seriously affect the commerce of this country. There was a deficiency which must be pro vided for, but he thought it duo to the country that some Member of the Government should state on Fri- pay next how it was to be made up—whether by a legacy duty on real property, or by taxes on some branches of industry. He hoped they were not going to be satisfied with a continued deficiency which would bring the country into that state approaching to bank ruptcy which existed in 1841. Mr. lIORSMAN signified his intention of moving the resolution on the paper in his name when the House went into Committee. Lord D. STUART said it was the settled determination of the constituency which he represented not to submit to the income-tax. He did not think the proposal of the Government that night would remove their dislike to it, because their objection was not so muoh to the amount as to the injustice and inequality inherent in the tax, and to its inquisitorial nature. It was said that those who opposed the tax ought to propose a substitute for it. He denied that such was the duty of the representatives, that was the duty of the Government; but he thought that it would not be impossible to find some means of taxation in the 26,000,000/. which they had reduced of late years. Sir R. INGLIS would ask the Noble Lord who had just spoken whether he would have the hardihood to go before his constituents and propose to reimpose upon them any ono of those taxes which had been remitted? A tax of 7,000,0001. had been remitted on barley. Would any of the Members representing county con etituencias propose to re-impose that tax? Ile did not think the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln was prepared to name a single source of taxation, if the income-tax was rejected. Colonel SIBTIIORP—I am.—(Laughter.) Sir R. INGLIS congratulated the Right Hon. Gen Ileum the Chancellor of the Exchequer on finding one Member who was ready to propose a substitute. Ile would suggest to the Government the plan adopted by France and Belgium, of putting a stamp duty on foreign bills of exchange, and also on gas. Since the income • tax had first been proposed he had always held the view that it was most desirable to raise as large an income as possible upon a graduated scale, exempting altogether from taxation sums below the minimum amount, from which the tax was to be paid. An arrangement of this kind would be a great blessing to clerks and others, and espe cially to those for whom he might be supposed to feel more particularly interested—the poorer parochial clergy of the country. Mr. BLACKSTONE said, when the income-tax was first proposed he had prophesied it would be a permanent tax, and had opposed it accordingly. Mr. SEELY thought it would be desirable7the House should know, before they went further, what would be the new taxation proposed, and what would be the de ficiency in case the present budget were adopted. It seemed to him, from the revenue tables, that if the budget were adopted we should have, in 1849, some where about six millions additional debt. lie believed this to be so ; but there was some difficulty in making out very clearly how the matter stood, in consequence of the way in which the public accounts were presented, to obviate which difficulty in future he would suggest the great desirability of having, on a certain day in every year, a statement of the assets and liabilities of the nation laid before them in a succinct form.—(Hear.) The Committee was then postponed until Friday next. SLAVE TRADE COMMITTEE. Mr. HUTT moved that Mr. B. Baring be added to the Select Committee on the Slave Trade. Mr. lIINDLEY, by way of amendment, proposed that Sir E. Buxton be added to the committee. 'Die question having been put, Mr. Hu - TT complained of the attempt made to draw a companion between any t wo!Hon. Members of the House, and of being driven to defend the merits of the Hon. Member he proposed. With respect to Sir E. Buxton, he had asked that llon. Baronet to serve on the Com mittee, and had found him in a state of indecision as to whether he would serve or not. Sir E BUN. Pt IN denied that he had been in any such I unenviable condition as that described. He had felt a great anxiety to be on the Committee, and had stated that he would attend as much as he could. Lord HOTHAM asked why both Hon. Gentlemen should not be on the Committee ?—(Hear.) Mr. HUTT said the Committee had originally been limited to fifteen. Sir R. H. INGLIS saw no reason why the number should not be increased. The very name of the lion. Member for Essex was suffieient to render it obviously desirable that he should be appointed to servo. Captain PECIIELL complained that no naval officer was placed on the Committee, and urged the House to assist him iu adding to it the Noble Lord the Member for South Staffordshire. Sir G. GREY said it would be contrary to the rules of the House to increase the number beyond fifteen. He suggested that in the event of any Member not beint , able to attend hereafter , t hen Sir E. Buxton should being added. Mr. lIINDLEY consented to accept this arrange ment; and the amendment being withdrawn, the original motion was agreed to. Captain PECHELL then desired to add the name of Lord Ingestre to the Committee, but The SPEAKER informed him that he could not do so, the Committee having been appointed. NEW war r. On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ was ordered to bo issued for the election of a Member for the borough of Kinsale, in the room of Mr. Guinness, The House adjourned at Eleven o'clock. REMINISCENCES OF TALLETRAND.—Among the distinguished female characters who figure in this inte resting work, we observe, as particularly prominent, Madame Adelaide, Mario Antoinette, Maria Theresa, the Princess Talleyrand, Madame de Stael, Madame Necker, the Duchess D'Orleans, Madame do Krudener, the Princess de Guimene ~ the Countess do la Motte, Madame du Barri, Madame du Deffand, the Queen of Etruria, Madame Geoffrin, &c. &c. Whatever degree of respect may be entertained for Prince Talleyrand, it has always been difficult to withstand the attraction of his incomparable wit, whilst his manners recalled the flowing courtesy of the French nobility in their best times. These qualities were never, perhaps, exhibited to greater advantage than on the present occasion, and particularly in the portraitures above alluded to. GRATUITOUS,-I:NYENTY-COLUMN SUPPLEMENT TO THE " OBSERVER" OF SUNDAY, MARCH s.—ln order to give the most complete particulars of the French affairs consecutively with the Observer of Feb. 27. (which gave thirteen folio columns of Paris News) a Gratis Supplement will be published next Sunday, of twenty folio columns. Price of the Observer and Sup plement, Sixpence. The Observer ' of Feb. 27, has Le o) reprinted, and copies can be had at the office, Strand. The Festival of the Royal Asylum of the St. Ann's Society, on Thursday next, under the presidency of his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, will be honoured by the presence of his Royal Highness the Conde de Montomolin. We remark that the Testimonial to Mr. Charles Nash, for his successful prosecution of the lii.gage rob beries, and resistance to the gangs, is drawing to a close. We think that every director's name at least ought to be found amongst its subscribers. ,i, 74 DISCOUNT COMPAN 70 THE EDI roil OF Tli A SIR, —I have noticed in your journal some remark; with regard to a discoun .to course of formation. Now, as I was, I i to call attention publicly to the subje 41 claim the indulgence of making a few re In the Liverpool Mail, of November 13 lished t-vo letters siealed " Incognito," callkistilp44loa M.. 410 to the subjcct of bills of exchange, and their importance, with the 1 7causes and effects of their having been thrown out of circulation ; at the same time giving a sketch of a plan for forming a company on the principle of mutual insurance, by which I proposed to attain the following results, with safety to those carrying it out — with immense benefit to the community at large, and to trade generally, and yielding a handsome return fcr the capital employed. It would restore confidence:and insure its continuance; it would protect people in business from the heavy and uneven losses to which they have been liable from the credit system on bills of exchange; it would place busi ness on a firmer and safer footing generally, and check the growth of undue credits; it would provide a safe and available circulating medium at all times, and would make people of business to a great extent independent of bank restrictions and Government disabilities; it would place the controlling power in the bands of those for whose interest and protection it has been established; it would cheek, to a great extent, the heavy fluctuations in the value of money ; and it would guard against, to a certain extent, the undue depreciation and sacrifices of produce and marketable securities. I also sent a few copies for private circulation in Lon don, my object being, in the first instance, to call atten tion to the subject; and, although the plan of the pro posed company, so far as you notice it, agrees in many of its p7incp'es with mine, I think I could furnish work ing details of one which would more fully attain the desired end, and the results of which would be more comprohenaive—or, perhaps, a modification of the two might be advantageous. I would also suggest a very great alteration in the system of business generally, to which I have slightly alluded in one of my letters. The importance of this subject, and the notice which it is beg]nning to attract, must be my excuse for trou t bling you at such length; and, as it may further the object, I give my name, although, for several reasons, I would have preferred preserving my " incognito." JOHN B. BROWN. Liverpool, Feb. 26, 1848. / t ri tA4, - , Itiikr • THE NATIONAL LEAGUE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Sin,—l think I express the sentiments of nearly the whole of the Liberal party in this district, and indeed throughout the kingdom, when I hazard the opinion that we must make another grand and united effort. We have laboured hard and sacrificed much to pro mote universal peace and brotherhood among the nations of the world, to relieve the poor of the land, to open a channel for their industry, and to forward the social pro press of society but it would now appear from the Budget of our so called Liberal Ministry, that those labours are likely to be in a great measure lost to us. The attempted imposition (uncalled for) of an odious and inquisitorial war tax in a time of peace, being almost the only measure proposed by the present Ministry, has elicited a feeliag of the most intense disgust and disaffec tion throughout the whole land ; and any o ne lookin g at the debates in the House of Commons , c annot fail to perceive that instead of "helping us," as Cobden advises, they appear to have aided the aristocrats in trying to bring our free-trade principles into disrepute. Tnere remains, therefore, nothing for us, in my humble judgment, but to procure again the immediate and unmistlkable declaration of public opinion on this subject ; and I would respectfully suggest to the whole body of the free traders the immediate formation of an association, to be called " The National League,"—to tecure " Liberty, Peace, and Freedom of Trade." The commit:ee to be, the Executive Council of the late National Anti-Corn law League. Objects :- 1. To aid in carrying out, to the fullest extent, the principles of free trade. 2. To relieve industry, by procuring the removal of all indirect taxes, and substituting others more rational and just. 3. To procure the abolition of the laws of Entail and Prim ogeniture. 4. To procure a more fair and equitable representa. Lion of the people in the House of Commons, the great majority of whom are mere nominees of our landed aris tocracy. 5. To obtain justice for the people of Ireland. 6 To improve the character of our army and navy, by securing to merit and long service a fair and legiti mate reward or promotion. 7. To guard against our ever again being plunged into a bloody and expensive war, through the dan gerous and unconstitutional tendency of our aristocrats Co interfere in the affairs of other nations, 8. To procure a fund for carrying out the above ob jects in a legitimate and constitutional manner. It is true that Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Leeds, and many other towns, together with nearly the whole public press of the country, are speaking in terms of strong disapprobation of the Government measures, and also that it is proposed in Yorkshire to have a grand West Riding meeting" on the subject; never theless, as our aristocracy, both Whig and Tory, are so firmly yet secretly bound together by the ties of afalse and imaginary self-interest in opposition to us, I see no chance for us but by uniting ourselves again and demanding a fair and honest recognition of our prin- ciples. As merchants and traders in this great kingdom, we do not desire to escape or evade legitimate taxation, but we insist on having it placed on a more fair and equit able and constitutional basis than it is at present. We abhor a system of "indirect robbery" of the poor, and I think the general opinion of all the free-traders will be found to be, that w•e do at once " speak out," and tell our opponents that we arc prepared even yet to make tenfold the sacrifice of time, money, and labour, if it be required, in order to secure our complete emen cipation. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your most obedient servant, Leeds, Feb. 28, 1848. GEORGE WILSON. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. PeratouTn, FEB. 26.—The circumstances of the long quarantine under which it was deemed necessary to place her Majesty's steam sloop Growler at Bermuda has excited some attention here. This steamer was last year sent out by the Lords of the Admiralty to make experimental trips for the purpose of testing the practi cability of conveying free labourers by steam from the coast of Africa to the West Indies. The undertaking was considered at the time to be one of great danger to those engaged in it, and requiring en officer of some energy to conduct it. For that purpose the Admiralty selected Commander Potbury, a skilful seaman, who, unfortunately, last fall, died of the coast fever. It ap pears that his successor, Commander Hall, has had a very dangerous attack of the same disorder, and was slowing recovering when the Persian left on the Bth instant. The Growler will shortly come home, when, in all pro'eability, her crew will undergo a second quarantine. It is rather improbable, with such fatal experience, that their Lordships will send her a second time on such a dangerous expedition. This port and its vicinity for the last 24 hours have been visited by very heavy gales from the southward, veering occasionally to the eastward, bat principally from the westward or south. The sea rose and fell a great height. At high tide it dashed with violence against tho breakwater, and at times enveloped the lighthouse in a thick foam, which ascended above the , antere. No damage occurred in the harbour excepting the removal of a portion of the seaward platform at tached to the Millbay-pier. This platform was injured in October, 1546. It was then repaired, bat as its main tenance is not absolutely necessary, it will most likely not now be replaced. There is zn authenticated rumour of the total loss of a fruit schooner near salcotnbe. WooLwicu, FEB. 28.—A messenger arrived at Wool wich shortly after one o'clock yesterday from the Admi ralty, sith dispatches for Commodore Sir Gordon Bre tner, K.C.B. and K.C.11., who had arrived on the pre vious evening from leave of absence. On the receipt of the dispatches the Monkey steam-vessel, Master-Com mander Bryant, was ordered to get up her steam imme diately, and proceed with the least possible delay to Dover, which she did early in the afternoon. The Black Eagle steam-vessel, Master Commander S. B. Cook, is ordered to be kept in readiness, in case her services should be required. The Triton steam-vessel, under the charge of Captain Austin, C. 8., with Lieutenant Robertson, which was ready for sea this morning to proceed to North Yar mouth to test her funnel, has now been ordered to pro ceed towards the Land's End, instead of North Yar mouth. The greatest dispatch is used to get the Sphynx, the Rattler, and the Driver ready for sea. The Woodlark, tender to the Mastiff, and under the command of Lieut. Thomas, arrived yesterday at Wool wich from the Orkney Islands. The Mastiff surveying-vessel, under the command of Captain Becher, of the llydrographical-office, is to re main in the North Sea on her surveying duties. FUGITIVES FROM THE CONTINENT.--The following passengers were amongst the recent arrAiivaajlosrf-rGomenetrhael Continent:—Mr. Goddard and famil y ; Auchmuty; Mr. and Mrs. Paris; Mr. Winkner; Mr. Foord and servant; Mr. Mugging and servant; the Earl of Essex; Mr. and Mrs. Argoyne; Mr. Knowles and servant; Mr. Matson; Mr. Lamback; Mr. W. Hunter and servant ; Mr. B atworth ; Mr. Vaughan ; M r. and Mrs. Merker; Mr. and Mrs. Gilbert and family; Mr. Wilson and servant; Mr. and Mrs. Cohen and servant; Mr. and Mrs. Morpatt and servant; Mr. and Mrs. Ba restieu and family; Mr.:Roberts; General Sir Alex ander Grant; Mr. Haviland; Mr. Wittox, from Belgian Legation; Lieutenant Rooke; Mr. O'Connor; Monsieur Lebas ; Baron Beust ; Lieutenant Frederick George Leigh and Mrs. Leigh and family; General Gower; Mr. and Mrs. Dalis and family; Mr. and Mrs. Watson; Mr. and Mrs. Walker; Mr. Betts and servant; Mr. and Mrs. Lay and servant; Mr. and Mrs. Gans; Mr. Budd; Mr. Ho.t; Mr. and Mrs. Morgan; Mr. and Mrs. Sargent; Augusta Devette; Mr. Moore; Mr. Kenner ; Mr. Bier; Mr. and Mrs. Valentine and servant; Monsieur Perrier; Mr. Pigne ; Mr. Sisley; Mr. and Mrs. Drury; Marquis du Chastlier and servant; Lady Dennis; Mr. Blake; Mons. Van Cronbrugge ; Mr. Frost ; Mr. King; Mr. Glaenser; Mr. Torrenu; his Excellency the Marquis do Lisboa; his Excellency Mons. Parrede; Mr. Lampert; Mr. A shwell; Mr. and Mrs. Shelgrove.— Dover Chronicle of Saturday. A TWOPENNY INSTEAD or A. PENNY POSTAGE. — A rumour prevails that it is in contemplation to double the rates of postage. The penny rate is to be raised, it is said, to twopence. ,‘04141..._-•? ) . r to . .