The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-07 00:00:00

Imber declared that the Irish Members were fre fah ~ .2 a ; obliged to a d dress the House in terms much warmer awe heated than under ordinary circumstances they de 'ea Bet now they were allied to a powerful and influential Party 'whowould e give them th e i r a id w h en th e y s aw they had iseereal g e evance to complain of, and f or th e i rr itation they were pr;l7°brlig,ed. .to display, they should now substitu the moral which they possessed, and he had no doubt it would he suc cessful i n i ts application.—( Hear, hear ) Sir ROBERT PE EL said that the Hon. and Learned Member might be about to substitute some of that moral strength which he possessed for the irritation which, as he himself e obs erve d , he had hitherto displayed. But he ( Sir R. should take leave to say that the Hon. and Learned that night had no justification for the degree of it which he had night exhibited, even in ils mitigated form.---( A laugh, aand he ar.) The Hon. and Learned M em ber took fire much t easily appe are d to hi m to b o il at a very l ow tempo bre, and he thought he should be able to convince him that e ivas with out am justification for the ebullition he had just exhibited. The Hon. Gentleman had observed that he was 7 , i r sustained by a powerful party, and that they should try Ia- strength. And what, he would ask, was the precise futestion upon w hi c h he proposed to snake this trial of strength ? at Hon. an d L earned Member beside him had given notice talai‘aar he m eant to move for the production of certain documents been from certa i n soc i et i es, and the answers w hi c h h ad n ie ee e ri returned to them by the Secretary of State for the Home le part ment—because he imagined upon the production of Seerthese document s h e cou ld f i nd some charge cr i m i natory o f t h e etary of St ate. W ell, h i s Right Hon. Fr i end (the Se wcretsry for th e H ome Department) declared all along that he t o uld agree t o t h e motion of the Hon. and Learned - Member, hi nti? he would produ ce co pi es o f t h e O range a dd resses an d o f ior ,°‘' , 'n answers ; an d h e ( Si r R o b ert P ee l) d ec l are d t h at , his Part, be had no objection that the Honourable and r aised Memb er should be put in possession of these do cuments, which were to be the preliminary to his further ! t ceeedin gs ,_ ( Cheers.) But the Hon. and Learned Ge ntleman had not t h ought proper to adhere to the terms of his noti ce, but moved for copies of Lord Manner's letter—of the o pinions o f t h e Irish law-officers—and of various letters from various bodies —not specified in the notice which the Hon. and . Le arned G ent l eman had given. Such had been the notice, and ou ch had been the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member— f(Hear,) He ask e d them—emphatically asked—the Hon. and arned M em b er opposite to take his division—( Loud cheers t ,O a ti , i the Ministerial benches) ; and he declared to the House he should infinitely prefer being in a minority upon a mo !on of th at kind, than be found amongst the Hon. Member's pe°werful majority"—( R enewe d c he er i ng .) H e con t en d e d at the H on. and Learned Member's notice had misled the for u ,se,—( He ar , h ear) ; an d h av i ng g i ven not i ce o f a mot i on t t he production of certain documents, and having found he at the S ecretary of State consented to their production, a v (Sir Robert Peel) would contend, in the face of ans. majority, that it was not fair without any previous no. liteation tofor the production of the letter of the ch ar ~ move .eellor, written in I 527, and of other documents which ntia nos previously been even referred to.—( Cheers.) It !ak:it be right that these documents should be produced—but Bwas not fair of the Hon. and Learned Member to move for osse walhout having given any previous notice of his inten iatnt Had the Hori. and Learned Meber given notice of his cat on—then it might remain to be rry considered, whether or not there was any ground for objecting to it.—( Hear, hear.) lid what assignable motive could there be for refusing to enniply with the usage in such cases ?a--( Near, hear.) With t ai ef erence to one part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's P °tin n he „should observe, that he had heard, in debates in li arliai nent,Members refuse to receive the opinions of . Iv gl y officers to guide them. " They are nothing to guide us, ttli a e a n lie tenor of the language held. "We are not bound by -- --vve will reason on them with distrust."—( Hear, hear.) g e had known men who claimed for themselves the characters b i n irig defend ers o f th e r i g ht s o f the Constitution, who t lll o' protested aga i ns t rece i v i ng th e opinions of the law He hey protested to direct the judgment of that House.—( Hear, hear.) as :ed the H ouse th en , a t l eas t, to take time to consider I lether or not they were willing to accept the opinions of the n, ° Meet of the for the object for which they were u a--( Hear, hear.) It was a grave question to decide he even after the maturest deliberation, and therefore did ;. 'nPe that the Hon. and Learned Member would go to his s t iv . lsi ntz, and having no moral strength to rely upon, would ""R' the House the physical power upon which he depended. esheers from the Ministerial beaches.) He had con theric n in th e manliness of the Hon. and Learned Member, th at he Would .redeem his pledge, and take his division upon a ih e i question—( l .l%oud cheers)—upon the only question upon 'ell the House was called upon to decide. The Secre thatY for the Home _Department, the House would recollect, team Promis e d to p ro a t ace the addresses and the answers con iitnPlated - in the' origins, l notice of the Hon. and Learned were for Tipperary, a n t ? therefore, the only question they 1 , 1 -et e called upoa to decide rises, should the additional docu tent§ he produced ?—( Hear, :lean.) Upon that question, (p e t a, let the Hon. and Learned Member take his division.- - di et 's.) He would now come to the speech of the Hon. 4 4 1 ,.„ - "earned Member. The object CI . he motion was, not to . 41 - whether the Secretary of Stnte had adopted the b ut 1-t nrin in acknowledging the receipt of ceilain addresses, teat,bether in ma ki ng that acknowledgment he least any n 7 AuTi ll Of countenancing an exclusive society ?—( Hear, hear.) ten Member had said to him, " You know you yourself - th s t -4 -Z ed this society, as you found it necessary to govern aocg,,. their instrumentality."—(We understood the Right e'e,„ -Ir onet to advert to an observation used by Mr. Feargus i m -n11 ;,), 2 r but which did not reach us in the gallery.) steq l% ARGUS O'CONNOR—" I said" (as we under tow; t . te Hon. and Learned Member) "that your opinion t ' a 1 u arnetric-lly opposed to that which you formerly en ertah„d. a' - at ii ii ‘„ ll • PEEL should endeavour to show that he was not t tme an; encourager of this exclusive society. He should 1 1 ,,,, ,to a decla;ation which he had formerly made, and which h a d a un en adverte s t_ to by the Hon. and Learned Member wbo tla st introdu ce d' the motion. But it might be said that eali(liecloli aration was neade after he had changed his opinion on h e . Emancipati o n. No—it was delivered in 1827, when ana 4s , s uPposed to b e aiS encouraeer of the Orange system,t `;'re lie had brought forward the question of Catholic ial a - o n 'Pation. H e s h ou ld read from a speech of his delivered " ( 1„ -47 , a Passage which wouln show that he did not then if oil l en a it necessary to encourage this Society." The Right sect taronet then read from Hanstard's Debates, on the sub sp,etni_f Orang e institutions, the fol;',ewing extract from a e F. 'delivered by him : ‘Vish a ws , t, however, he must be allowed to say, that he heartily th, v e 'a.t these Associations were at an end. He believed that Ili g h t w e t „re dying away • but at the same time he agreed with the it i',"is Q - ",Lion • Baronet, that if the processions were stone away with, es be .better forth • peace, the tranquillity, and the happiness the - s c : a nd. .Any ()pinion therefore, ' which he might hold, any of Fathti°sg ePhoiOns which , he was known to entertain respecting him hc E triane.ipation, could not fairly be supposed to influence i irel a ' Quml l ( rn, the pr e se n t ques ti on . If he were a p riva te gentleman in he decl are d t o G o d th a t h e wo uld, by his influence, by his aN a i' a il , by ev ery means i n hi s power , en d eavour to put down these (-p h as and p r o cess i ons ." 11 reading e r eading of this extract was followed by loud cheers.) ,Si r CH E IL—Tbat is precisely what I quoted. neee s r ,„'" -- PEEL—But I wish to show that I did not deem it at a , - ary at any time to encourage this society—that my opi p,~hj`e'vere not " diametrically opposed" at any time upon this Hear.) s '.". ORE IL — I never sa id t h ey were. froin ir h. ,• Pb;' EL-011 no ; but I wish to put your quotation Ro la -3t §Vee.h of 1827 in opposition to the statement of the R 1 a nd Learn ed Gentleman beside you.—( Hear.) i n th - O'COl'iNOß—Oh, I give you credit for appearing Si r two instinct characters.—( Loud laughter.) PEEL—B,ut I wish to show that I have not ap the two distinct characters.—(hear, hear.) The al tva Honourable Baronet then went on to state that he had Itoci a - j tn ailirested the most earnest desire to discourage these a ndti;: a- (Hear, hear.) That had been his uniform course, rasters re fore he had not "" appeared in the two distinct cha °ten So much for his c onduct in 1827.—( Cheers.) But bee -ee bad been given by a seing—he did not recollect if it had S e whether the song had been sung or not—by the tts'„V : . I \i`Cres. • and the Hon. and Learned Member op- J'e.„ t it a - ha d referred 2 to a correspondence which had taken place tal -e n this gentleman and himself (the Chancellor of the 114,e%ecluer.) True, he had eceived an address from Mr. Iliff r -e a a, and in his reply to float address he stated that he . ., t he e t -e x ',frora the Rev. Gentleman ; for "he (the Chancellor of Reli ef c ia nenuer) did not think it was desirable to repeal the tzflzaii, 'lli, and to fritter away the law which established (I saild `Y ationgst Churchmen, Catholics ; and Dissenters."— eb eeas.—Was this the declaration of a man whose de -I,,isl4:(iins to fost er an d encourage exclusive societies ?—( Con 41ersil; cheers.) " Oh, but" (says the Hon. and Learned ' j ests ° el.) " the constitution of your Government as such as to aoeiati3resall confidence respe c ti ng your conduct towards these SIR . '?,.S I EIL—I did not say so. O aall, es. PEEL—In 1827 came on the discussion An the it e ° ffences, and the person who brought it forward as i light i t Hon. the Member for Montgomeryshire ; and the a elee tea ''ori• the Member for Montgomeryshire has been cheer' " by his Majesty as a Member of his Cabinet.—(Loud desh. e n ,R . .) Did that seem the probable consequence . of a of. thhci encourage an exclusive confederacy ? Was it a part Gaverrtheta which destroyed all confidence," that the Isa,o ha had selected, as one of its advisers, the very map 4 vo ate ad brought forward the Hon. and Learned Member s d. declaration against the Orangemen of Ireland ? oos e cheers.) But the question, after all, was not—the tati oils nlight believe him—the precise legality of these insti -knight possess 1,-"( Hear.) It was quite possible that an association e strictly speaking, conformable to the law, a nd yet oiear, all the evil ingredients of a very mischievous body.— htaltia evil They wou ld no t c ure the ev il by mere ly these societies conform to the law—by preventing 't he; trorn outstepping the limitations of a statute.—( Hear.) 4 ,,, t a r evil consisted, not so much in any direct violation of the of 4 ia the encouragement of angry feeling.—(Loud cries Hear.") This he had always felt, and it was his con sliese a, that though the House 'might succeed in drawing Iscups°cieties within the exact boundaries of the law, they al iee ' e not by that means remove what constituted the great aw . l i3ts to them.—( Hear, hear.) They could not pass a li es Preaet:ting a n Orange association from excluding Catho ta,----( )To be sure they might pass a law rendering st4 t a i t dmini.aterin g of an oath illegal ; but if the society arc e t,. 4 ted a decla rat i on f or t h e oath the princ i ple o f an efk at 'lve confe ieracy still remained with all its mischievous doe r a nd nothilan- was gained by obliging_ this society to aban te ,bee oath, w h en t h e su b stitution of a declaration amounted t 0 th e 5:4111 e thing.—( Hear, hear.) He really thought that ta to , cours e a d opted towards these societies might be traced an a l°l the ev il s which they entailed. They were taunted had bley were menaced—(Cheers)—and the example which lien iit e.n set to th em const i tute d, if not an a p o l og y, at l east a tl ° ll both for their existence and their determination not to yield to the just authority of the laws.—( Cheers.) He never should conceal his opinion on this subject, and it was his con viction their being not amenable to the law was not thegreatest evil of these societies. To these associations he should use language which might possibly have a better effect than the most bitter tauntings from others. His language should be, " You who profess so much loyalty to your Sovereign, do not set an example to any other party to encourage-the continuance of these dangerous associations ; and before all avoid comme morations—by unnecessary commemorations of past events, to exasperate the feelings of those who regard them with diffe rent feelings, who. look upon them with different eyes from what you do."—( General cheers.) With respect to the par ticular motion before the House, he was really surprised that Hon. Members on the other side attached so much impor tance to those addresses, which were, or rather ought to have been, the subject of their discussion that evening. The King's subjects had the privilege—it was their's by their char ter of the Bill of Rights—to petition their Sovereign. Did those who supported the motion of the Honourable and Learned Member mean to curtail that privilege, or to say that before his Majesty received the addresses of any portion of his subjects, he should minutely inquire to what society they belonged ?—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend beside him had showed them that the petition of the Political Union was received.—( Hear, hear.) His Majesty had not informed the Political Union that they had forfeited their rights as subjects, by attaching themselves to an association declared, as his Right Hon. Friend had shown, by proclamation to be illegal.—( Hear, hear.) But, in the present case, had it not been clearly shown that the answers of his Right Honourable Friend were delivered in conformity with the ordinary and established practice, and that he had no intention of pro nouncing on the legality of the institution from which the address proceeded?—( Hear, hear.) He contended that if the House recognised the principle of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's motion, they would be attempting to narrow the rights—to fetter the privilege of the subject to address the Throne.—( Hear.) They might, it was true, be furthering their own opposition to that particular body, but they would be contravening that great principle of the law which gave to every subject the right of entertaining his own opinion and expressing it in addresses to the King or to the Parliament.— ( Hear, hear.) If this body, which had been so often ad verted to, was illegal, why was it not prosecuted ?—( Hear, hear.) Where was the difficulty of prosecuting, supposing it to be illegal ? and of its illegality he was not quite so satis fied.—( Cheers.) If it was not illegal. then the advice, the earnest advice of a sincere friend would be—set an example of forbearance, of peace, and of obedience to the laws.— ( Loud cheers.) That advice he would venture to say would produce at least as much impression as any harsh course that might be dictated by the bitter feelings which one party en tertained towards another.--( Cheers.) Again, I would say (concluded the Right Hon. Baronet) if they be illegal, prose cute them ; if they be not illegal, set them the example your selves of forbearance.—( Hear, hear.) I trust after the frank declaration I have made I shall relieve this House from any im pression that it is my desire or the desire of his Majesty's Go vernment to encourage the existence of societies ) the very constitution of which is at variance with the peace, the hap piness, and the prosperity of the country.--( Loud cheers.) Mr. S HEIL, at the time he gave his original notice, was not aware of the existence of those documents, for the produc tion of which he had subsequently moved. He had only read them that day upon looking over a debate. He felt the justice of the observation, that the House was taken by surprise, and to obviate the objection, would give notice for Thursday night of the motion which he had that evening submitted to the House. After a few words in explanation of some other parts of his speech, the Hon. and Learned Member said he had not challenged a trial of " physical strength." He should leave that to his Hon. and Learned Friend beside him.----( Laughter. ) Sir ROBERT PEEL had no idea of provoking a trial of physical strength" with that Hon. and Learned Member.— ( Continued laughter.) He should have used the word " nu merical" for " physical. "—( Laughter.) Colonel EVANS was glad to hear of the liberality which prompted the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to return to all addresses to the Throne the same answer ; and, by way of commentary, he should only observe, that he had some time since to present an address from his constituents, regretting, it was true, the dismissal of the late, and the appointment of the present Ministry; but he could not recollect that, in the answer he received, he was apprised that his Majesty had received that address in the " most gracious manner."—( Laughter and cheers.) Col. PERCEVAL would avow himself an Orangeman, and go into any Court the Hon. and Lea rn ed Member might think proper to select and bide the issue of a trial as to the legality of this institution.--( Cheers.) Some Hon. Members on the other side had said that the Orange institution was illegal; and the reason they assigned was, " The Member for Dublin told them so."—( Laughter.) In his study in Merrion-square the Member for Dublin might give an opinion on a case laid before him, which he ( Colonel Perceval) was not the person to call in question ; but he could not defer to gratuitous opi nions of this kind given for the furtherance of the Hon. Mem ber's own purpeses.—( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Member was in the habit of giving opinions as a lawyer—on cases not laid before him—and apparently for the purpose of influencing the judgment of country gentlemen like himself. If the Orange Society were one which went to encourage bloodshed, he (Colonel Perceval) would scorn to be a member of any such sti tut ion. Mr. O'CONNELL did not know whether he rightly under stood the Hon. and Gallant Colonel, the Member for Sligo, correctly in the offer which he had made to give him all oaths, tests, or declarations used by the Orange Societies, of which he avowed himself a Member. Had the Gallant Officer said, however, that he would give him (Mr. O'Connell) the test which persons becoming Orangemen gave, in order to get into a lodge— the test, too, by which they ascertained whether a man was an Orangeman or not ? Col. PERCEVAL—Yes, I will. Mr. O'CONNELL—He forgot the declaration and the test I Now he would take upon himself to declare that upon the present terms of the Act of Parliament, it was an illegal in stitution—not in England indeed, because the Act applied to Ireland only ; but in Ireland, he repeated, it was illegal. He would first observe, too, that he had the history of the rise and progress of Orangeism, from its first date—from its commence ment in Armagh down to the present day. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) had stated that political unions were illegal, and yet that their petitions had always been gra ciously received by the Crown. But this was a mis-statement of fact, and he would refer to the instance which had occurred in respect to the Birmingham Union. Then a sort of procla mation appeared in the newspapers, calling for and suggesting a species of organisation of the Union. This document was met by a proclamation from the Government, stating this to be an illegal association. What was the consequence ? Why the Birmingham men abstained at once, and never carried it into effect, and the association, in its intended character, never did exist. The proclamation prevented it, and with reference to the political unions from whom Addresses were received, their meetings were held in the open day, without any test being re quired ; and therefore they were legal assemblies. To be sure the principle which had been laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet might apply perhaps sometimes—namely, that though an association might be legal, it might at the same time be unconstitutional and dangerous in its nature, and no justification was to be found in the mere fact of its being legal • but if a species of society were maintained which was illegal, unconstitutional, end unchristian (and he defied the Right Hon. Gentleman to take any view of the Orange Societies which would not establish their illegality) what was there to justify the giving countenance to such an institution. The Right Honourable Baronet had read the House an excellent lecture upon Christian charity and forbearance, and upon the duties of the different classes of society from one to the other. But the Right Hon. Baronet might as well offer the advice to the idle winds, and especially when he addressed menihers of Orange Societies. He was convinced, indeed, that thee Mteht Hon. Gentleman had al ways adopted the same language, and he rave him credit for sincerity ; but when that Right Hen. Genteeman was in office before, did he not arm the ()ranee yeomanry in the North ? Did not that force consist of 28,600 men, 19,000 of whom were the Orange party of the North ? as there a single fuctionary in the North—was there a Magistrate—a prosecu tor, or a juror, but belonged to some Orange lodge? Had a Roman Catholic, then, the slightest chance of success, by a system similar to that (as we understood) which the present Government had carried into effect.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial side.) He cared not what the Gallant Officer had said ; it was idle for any man—for any poor man particu larly—to expect any—aye, the slightest chance of assistance, whilst the prosecutor had the protection of the Orange fac tion of the country. He had said this was an illegal faction, and he would not address himself to the Gallant Colonel, who did not pretend to be a lawyer ; but then the Right Hon. Ba t ronet could not have received and consulted the statute, be cause he asked where was the use of abolishing an oath, for in place of that, a declaration would be made, and thus the law would be evaded ? But any test or declaration made or taken in any society or lodge, constituted an illegal assembly. The words of the Act were distinctly stated, and therefore it was that he had asked for the test.--(The Hon. and Learned eZentleman here read the words of the statute, which were to t Le effect, that where parties were bound to any con federacy by any oath, such act was illegal; and that any and every such eenciety , assembly, brotherhood, committee, lodge, ct': club, or confe racy, the members whereof should take an active part in, or ass ant to any test or declaration not required by the law, is illegal.) After some further remarks on this point, the Hon. and LeaTened Gentleman proceeded to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman knew as well as he did, that in the Orange Society the members tested each other by se cret tests by which they mighi know whether a man was an Orangemon or not. He (Mr. O'Connell) could not get into an Orange lodge—( A laugh)—nor could any man who was not initiated, or could give the pass word, or mho was unac quainted with the mystery as they called it. No, he must be tested before he could hope to get in. And this was done in the face of the law, by which every member of an Orange lodge was guilty of a crime, of a misdemeanour. These per sons, however, were not prosecuted because the Government did not do their duty—because they desired to promote men in that House who proclaimed themselves to be Orangemen. And yet the Right Hon. Gentleman was astonished that the Go vernment had not had credit given them for discountenancing these associations I Were not their champions chosen by the Government itself? Perhaps he might be condemned for adverting to the relationship which existed between an in dividual and a Noble Peer in the other House—but had not Lord Roden, the head of an Orange party, been offered office under the present Government ? Was he pot to have been a member of the existing Ministry ? Was it by a kindred feeling that the Honourable Member for Montgomery had taken office ? But had they not the Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Kent, to place against him—a most respectable man in society, and entitled to the full benefits of his station; a gentleman who had the full power of asserting his principles, but who, upon the last occasion of the amount of the vote for Maynooth College, when it was opposed by the Hon. Member for Caithness, on the ground that he would not be instrumental in supporting idolatry—that same Right Hon. Gentleman, the Paymaster of the Forces now, voted in the minority of twelve against the grant. Thus, then, he set off the Right Hon. Member for Kent against the Right Honour able Member for Montgomery, leaving the matter perhaps upon a fair balance. Then he came to Ireland I—There they had made Privy Councillors of the Members for the Culver shy. Both of these Gentlemen were most respectable in pri vate life, and both in the same profession ; but the senior of the two was one of the most determined of the opponents of the Roman Catholic Reform Bill. In the year 1829, that Learned Gentleman went as close to rebellion as possible ; he had taken the trouble of going that length, and, in the eyes of the law, not more violent language could have been used ; and upon what ground ? Because the Government of the day had pre sumed to give civil rights to their Roman Catholic brethren ! And this Gentleman had been selected and chosen to be one of the Privy Cmucillors. And then, who was the next ? Mr. Gre gory! Mr. Gregory was chosen for a Privy Councillor. He would appeal to any Gentleman who had been connected with the late Administration, whether it had not been a matter of com plaint among the Roman Catholics of Ireland and the liberal Protestants, that they had not a chance of making any fair representation whilst Mr. Gregory remained at the Castle in Dublin ; and on this account, he presumed, he had been se lected and made a Privy Councillor. And the third gentle man chosen for this capacity was the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, the Recorder for Dublin, Whose respectability and manly candour he was ready at all times to acknowledge, but was there ever a more decided partizan ? In the last session of Parliament, the House had condescended to listen to him (Mr. O'Connell), and a hope was held out for better times for Ireland. A Bill passed the House of Commons, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman well knew how it had been stopped in the other House. The Bill which thus passed the House of Commons, had for it object the taking away two-fifths of the tithes in Ireland, and though the appropriation of tithes was not effected by this, yet there then appeared a prospect of its eventually being achieved. Such was the conviction of the Roman Catholics and of the Repealers in Ireland at the time, and they gave up all agitation. Not a single meeting was held, not an attempt was made to call upon the public to take a part in any question I But what had been the conduct of those gentlemen, who had agitated the country from one end of it to the other ? In what manner had the Corporation of Dublin conducted themselves? Who was their daily orator— their principal speaker at those occasional orgies, honoured as they were by the presence of great folks in that country? But they had sent over to England for a first-rate man, a first-rate orator—they sent for my Lord Winchilsea.—( Hear.) The High Sheriff had been guilty of gross misconduct. But he was not a partisan, perhaps ! He had not the right to call exclusive meetings of Roman Catholics one day and of Protestants another. Yet he had called such meetings—meetings where the Orangemen came armed, and where men answered to the cheers which were given by discharging their fire-arms into the air. And yet these scenes of agitation had taken place and had been engendered by the very men who had so often deprecated it. Who were the agitators at the time ? What had been the conduct of the Brunswick Lodge of Orangemen—who talked of agitation whenever it went to ad vocate the cause of civil or religious liberty, and who, there fore, abominated it ? Who was the talented representative of this body ? Why, the Recorder of the city of Dublin. He (Mr. O'Connell) admired his sincerity and his candour, but he could not doubt, nor could any man, that upon that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's mind there must be an im pression that the Roman Catholics, if they did not look for the blood of every Protestant, desired the blood of Protes tantism—and, withal, the Roman Catholics were told to re main masters of their feelinge, and they were told that there was a wish to allay all ill feeling. Oh ! but whom had they selected to do this ? Why, men of, the very political party who had been dominant in Ireland for 600 years ! Yes, the Go vernment thought that they had found out a mode of coercing Ireland. Nay, he had been told by a party, upon whose word he thought he might almost pledge himself (as we understood) that the present Lord Lieutenant bad declared that Ireland could be governed only by Orangeism.—( Hear, hear, from the both sides of the House.) But what cared he whether the Lord-Lieutenant had said so or not ! Did they not know that there was a shout of exultation theoughout Ireland, when a Grand Master of an Orange Lodge was made a Member of the Government, and when the Gallant Officer, who had made a display of his Orangeism in that House, who might be equal, but certainly not superior to those Gentlemen who sat behind him) was appointed to office? When that party found such to be the case, did they not raise the " No Popery" flag in the presence of the Lord-Lieutenant at the theatre ? If any man should raise the flag of " No Protestantism" in the presence of the most paltry meeting, would not that House at once de clare that the Magistrate should be deprived of the Commis sion of the Peace who could sanction such an act ? There was a Lord Mayor of Dublin, the proclaimed head of the Orange faction. Entertainments of that Corporation were given and attended by these parties. But what was this Cor poration ? It resembled in name, as far as its character or designation went, the Corporation of London. But mark I at this very hour, in the City of London, a Roman Catholic was Sheriff I Such, then, was the spirit of Protestants in this country, that Roman Catholics participated in all these offices. So long back as the year 1792, the law had interfered with respect to the Corporation of Dublin, and it enabled the Roman Catholics to obtain the freedom of the City. ( Hear, hear.) This late Statute enabled them to obtain office ; but since the year 1792, not a single Roman Catholic had been admitted. Forty-three years had gone by, and this same Corporation had not admitted a Roman Catholic I Their legal adviser was a Privy Councillor ! And yet Hon. Gentlemen opposite talked to him of discountenancing Orange factions and parties, when at the same time the Government emboldened and gave every countenance to this most unfortu nate, cruel faction ! Was it nothing that there should be a system of exclusion ? Did they think that these were mere tea-drinking assemblies ? There was no spirit of brotherhood in them Oh Ihe would ask, what became of the administra tion of justice when the Roman Catholic had an Orangeman for a Sheriff, an Orange Jury, and an Orangeman his prose cutor ? Let the present faction continue in power—let the majorities or the minorities in that House give the people of Ireland three months longer of such a system—let that preju dice their minds—let that feeling spread through Ireland, and then let them see what a cup of grief they would administer to Ireland. He knew that when he adverted to the present Administration he should be answered by the character of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, because he had voted for the Ro man Catholic Disabilities Removal Bill. How many men were there who voted for the Roman Catholic afterwards, and who were before encouraged to do so? Who had not voted for them at some time or other, except the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department? He was the only consistent man, and they had made him Se cretary of State for the Home Department; and he had told the House that he had always discouraged Orangeism in Ire land ! What ! could it be really imagined that that Right Hon. Gentleman, in anything he had done, could make him self believe this fact ? So with the Right Hon. Gentleman, who also talked of discouraging Orangeism—he, too, who was called its pride and champion—that he should have discou raged the Orangemen before—and that he should now do so, was an astounding anomaly. The Right Hon. Gentleman must have seen the Hon. and Learned Recorder for Dublin more than once since he went to Dublin Castle, arid he must have had oppartunities of knowing what were their views of Government in Ireland I But that country was delivered up to the power of faction. For one four years out of 670 they had had a species of cessation from disturbance. They were not satisfied, because they felt that the Government had had too many of their instruments in their own hands. He, for one, had candidly denounced the selection of the Attorney- General, though he had been told that he had exhibited great liberality. He had reason to know that he did so at the time of Lord Anglesey ; and he was now Attorney-General con sistently with the principles which he had entertained his whole life—principles upon which he had opposed every ad vance made in the cause of civil or religious liberty. Now lie did not see the Hon. Member for Donegal in his place.— ( Hear, hear, from Colonel Conolly on the Ministerial side.) The Gallant Member had said that ho was not an Orangeman, but he approved of their principles. Now he would ask the people of England whether that party had ever supported any one liberal principle? How had they behaved to the Protes tant Dissenters, claiming their just rights ? They had op posed in every stage any advance made to the Protestant Dissenters. What was their authority with the Protestant Dissenters, then ? What had they done with reference to the Reform Bill? Had they not opposed that memaire in all its stages in the most unequivocal manner ? Had they not advocated the mutilation of the Scriptures ? Had they not done this under the feeling that they would thus conciliate the anti-reforming party? And would they sup port this faction after all ? Yes, they would. He had been told that a Noble Lord had said that they got a com mission by delivering Ireland ever to their own power. Now Hon. Gentlemen of course were at liberty to say what the) pleased of him (Mr. O'Connell), but if his objects were continued agitation in Ireland, and keeping the country in alarm, they (the Ministerial side) were just pursuing the very course which would lead to such consequences, and to make him answer "Go on encouraging the Orange faction." But let them go on in their course,—let the Government take more Orangemen into their Councils, though no man ought to jus tify the Orange system. No man could be an Orangeman unless by the test by which Orangemen were known to each other ;--and no man could deny that such societies were ad mitted to be illegal. But let them go on encouraging them, and then make agitation necessary and inevitable—ay, inevit able in all its branches !—( Hear, hear.) The agitation of crime—the agitation of the misguided Whiteboys, the great strength of the domination of that country, because they were abhorred by every thinking man, and must be equally so by those who w o uld, by a Constitutional course of proceeding, obtain redress for their grievances, and prevent those mur ders and massacres which occurred continually, yet scarcely) a Protestant was ever assassinated ; perhaps, two cases out of two hundred ; but these wretched men massacred their Ro man Catholic landlords, and the Roman Catholic Fs eaents or tenants who came into their places. One of the most atrocious cases of attack was that of Thadeus Ryan, of Limerick, a Roman Catholic, who was assaulted on the high road by taye miscreants who fired off blunderbusses— woundedao his horse, and hi s servan t e l se . Thi s gent l ema n was a ..na - of that relationship, had taken an Magistrate, a near refati o ri of his (Mr. o, Ronan coii i neips), nci, Catholic la eetive part in Roman Catholic affairs. u-n. and Learned Gentleman, after some further remarks, proceeded to warn the Right lion. Baronet against giving an efficiency to the Orange party ; he warned him against the consequences of such a line of policy ; and he warned the Right lion. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department against the consequences of giving them the addresses of the Orange lodges arid the answers to them. He would say that if the Right lion. Gentleman had sent answers to those petitions or - - r. 72,/ VIE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 7, 1835. addresses, he had committed a misdemeanour. This he was able to show was the law. Nov any man corresponding with a member of an Orange Society, as such, was guilty of a misdemeanour; and let it be recollected that these addresses were signed by the members of certain lodges in their capacity as such. The Statute declared " that every man who shall maintain any correspondence or intercourse with any such society, division, branch or lodge, or member thereof, shall be guilty of misdemeanour, &c." So that if the Horne Secretary had sent an answer to Ireland, let the anomaly be cleared away, and then as he (Mr. O'Connell) knew the A names, he would try, not the idle offer of the Gallant Officer, but let them have the indictment--(but who would be found to file it ?) but it would go to a Grand Jury selected by the Sheriff of Dublin. The Government might find an indictment against these persons, but the power of the Government would be defied by the Sheriff's Juries, selected as he pleased ; and he would implore the House to reflect whether, at this enlightened period, they were to continue this species of misgovernment in Ireland. He would implore them to consider whether it would be wise to take up that party through whom the misgovernment of Ireland had been perpetuated for a period of more than 600 years; and who now had the audacity to make a line of de marcation between the different classes of his Majesty's sub jects. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then read an ex tract from an opinion given by Lord Gosford, in the year 1797, on the subject of the Orange Lodges in Armagh, in which that Nobleman observed that any Roman Catholic thought himself happy if the Orangemen did not destroy him—that there was no security—that persecution, attended with ferocious crimes, reigned all over the country, neither age nor sex being spared—that persons professing the Ro man Catholic faith were proscribed and persecuted by a law less banditti, wha had constituted themselves the judges, and who aimed at nothing less than their confiscation and banish ment—that the extent of their proscription exceeded any example either in ancient or modern times; more than one half of the population having been deprived of their fortunes ; driven, too, at an inclement season of the year, to seek shelter in more hospitable regions, &c. Yet he (Mr. O'Con nell) had been taunted because he had thought it his duty - to conciliate this faction. He had done so, and he had spent five years in the attempt. The return to power of this faction he prophecied would be more disastrous to Ireland than could be imagined. Mr. F. SHAW proceeded to contend that, with regard to Orange Societies, the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was wrong when he said that every society was illegal where there existed a test.—(A laugh.) There was no illegality in the use of a sign by which the members of a society knew each other. He would not, however, enter into a dry point of law, but ho must state the fact that Orangeism had never yet been pronounced to be illegal. That was a fact which he believed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not deny. Hon. Members of this country did not know the circumstances of of Ireland—they could not know what was the distempered condition of that country.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Oppotition.) He would say that that which would apply to a wholesome state of society might be inconsistent in a distempered state of society, and the cheers of Hon. Gen tlemen opposite came with a bad grace from them. Yes, it was too bad.—( Hear, hear.) Yes, they who were trembling at the idea of exclusive societies, even those who had always been the instigators, the abettors, and the creators of such ex clusive associations.—( No, no, from Mr. O'Connell.) What, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and others said, " No." They had delicate nerves assuredly ; and they reminded him of the tde of the giant who had - fed all his life upon wind mills, and at last died from eating fresh butter. What would be said of the Catholic Association, was that not exclusive ? Mr. O'CONNELL—No ; because there were 1,400 Pro testants enrolled in it. Mr. SHAW would allude to the Hon. Gentleman's late election, where a large body of Orangemen were placed on one side of the porch of the Sessions House. To these par ties the Hon. and Learned Gentleman addressed himself, say ing, what a pity it was that these Englishmen were trying to sow dissension amongst them ;_ they were all of one cou n t r y, and ought not to split upon differences of opinions. He had said, too, that he recollected the time when the Reman Ca tholics used to walk round the statue of King William, when 90 out of 100 felt no offence, and if they (the persons he ad dressed) felt in the same way, the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin added he would take their arm, or walk hand in hand with them wh en they got rid of the Sassenachs. And when the. Hon. and Learned Member made this declaration, he accompanied it by walking round the table, demonstrating how he would walk round the statue of King William. And not three days afterwards he abused these persons in the same newspaper in which he had before lauded them, and called the Orangemen a bloody, brutal, cruel faction. This then, was meant to allay irritation ! On another occasion the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alluded to the toast of d' The glorious memory," though he (Mr. Shaw) thought too much importance was attached to this customary toast • on se. veral occasions he d enounce d t hi s custom as one ca l cu lated to keep up ill will. Yet on an occasion of a'meeting in Drogheda, where persons advocating the repeal of the Union were seated, he laughed to scorn the idea that any toast of the kind could be offensive, and declared he would send even to the river Boyne to drink it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman went to a pub lic breakfast, where every man was called to drink " the glo rious, pious memory of King William." The Hon. and Learned Gentleman found fault with the appointment of the Attorney-General in Ireland, and had spoken of two other legal appointments of the Assistant Barristers. He had passed by one without observation, because he knew he was of the Liberal party. With reference to Mr. Robinson, however, he (Mr. Shaw) must beg to say that he had asked him for his vote, but that gentleman, not wishing to become a partisan, had refused him, and at the same time declared he would not vote at all. But who had not the lion. and Learned Gentle man abused, from the Lord-Lieutenant downwards ? He had abused the Lords-Lieutenants of all parties; and as to the declaration which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had sta ted upon what he considered to be credible authority, had been made by the present Lord-Lieutenant, he really believed the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had somehow or other brought forward the suggestion of his own invention, when he ascribed to that Noble person such a declaration as that he knew Ire land could be governed only upon Orange principle!. He knew, however, that it was at all times hard to compete with a negative, and he knew that when once an imputation of this nature went through the country, an injurious impression was the result. He had been honoured by the Lord-Lieutenant by conferences on the principles upon which the Government should be carried on—( Cheers from the Opposition)—but lie did not pretend to say that he had offered any counsel on the matter ; and unless the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin would take upon himself to say that the Lord Lieutenant was unworthy of being believed upon his word, he (Mr. Shaw) would at once give the contradiction to the assertion which had been made, because he well knew the contrary to be true. But who could escape the censure of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman? Again he had declared that lie (Mr. Shaw) had been all his life a partisan ' • this he deni e d t o h ave b een t h e case. He would class it with the other facts adduced by Hon. Gen tlemen opposite, the character of which he would illustrate by one instance. One fact asserted by an Hon. Gentleman op posite (Mr. O'Dwyer) was that agitation had made him (Mr. Shaw) a Judge, and that agitation had made him a Member of Parliament. He would not quarrel with the opinion which the Hon. Gentleman opposite might entertain of him; but this fact the Hon. Gentleman had stated, that to agitation was be (Mr. Shaw) indebted for his Recordership. On the honour of a gentleman—and upon such an asseveration lie appealed for credit to the other side of the House as well as his own—from the time he was called to the bar until elevated to his present situation, and until the dissolution of Parliament, immediately after which he was first returned to the House, he had never interfered in politics, and with agitation of any description he was as unconnected as the child unborn.—(Hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentleman opposite might, in reply, say that if he (Mr. Shaw) had not himself, his father had established claims which led to his professional and political promotion. The best answer to an observation of that nature would per haps be comprised in one remarkable event—one, indeed, so remarkable as to have shortened his father's Parliamentary career. His father, it was pretty generally known, ceased to be a Member of that House, after sitting in it for twenty two years.—( Hear, hear.) Was it agitation, the agitation with which he (Mr. Shelve) was charged, that deprived him of his seat? No. He lost the honour of sitting in that House by voting for Roman Catholic Emancipation.—( Cheers from the opposition benches.) He did say that when Hon. Gentlemen opposite made those bold assertions they were sometimes in the habit of hazarding, they should, he would not say, not misrepresent, but when they ventured on them, should not be totally ignorant of the circumstances.--( Hear.) On that topic he would merely make one more observation. Never, either in or out of the House, did he make any, the slightest, allusion to the Hon. Member for Drogheda. On no occasion did he ever do so, in any way ; and yet the Hon. and Learned Gentleman always bore in mind his having a judi cial situation—his being a Judge, when lie singled him out for a personal attack.—( Hear, hear.) He now begged to re vert to some of the views of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin ( Mr. O'Connell.) The Hon. and Learned Gen tleman had, he believed, divided the Irish into two classes— the Orangemen and the Christians—(" Hear, hear," from Mr, O'Connell.) The Christians were those who meekly and sub missively followed the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen ; and the Orangemen, who were contrasted with them, were those who -resisted his domination ; the Orange Knight of Kerry, for in stance.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") That accompli s h e d and enli g h tene d man—that consistent and able Senator and most useful country gentleman, who had always opposed him self to the enemies of the Catholic claims, in support of those claims, kept himself, for 25 years, excluded from office.— ( Hear, hear.) Why, then, did the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Dublin call him the " Orange Knight of Kerry ;411 He did so, in order to hold out a threat of assassination against those who would support the Knight.--Great confusion, and cries of " Order, order," in the midst of which— Mr. O'CONNELL rose and said—l cannot, Sir, allow an observation of that character to pass, without submitting to you, Sir, whether it be Parliamentary.—( Hear, hear. The 2 P I 4Fsg R made some ebservations, which, from the interposition of the Chair, were inaudible in the Gallery. We understood they were to the effect, that the observations of the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Shaw) were irregular. Mr. SHAW withdrew the observations.—( Hear.) They had, h owever, b een e li c i ted by whet hp lad seen in the Hon. and Learned Gentlernaro Own papers. There he saw the Hon. and Learned Gentleman reported as having said that those who voted for the Orange Knight of Kerry should have a death's head and cross-hones pallitts on their doors,.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Would the Hon. and Learned Gentleman submit the construction of that to any t melee trIP 1 :1? Did he not know how a respected Roman Catholic INObleMan, in his own county, felt and thought upon that subject, a No bleman, whom he (Mr. Shaw) would not implicate further in the transaction, by naming him, or by any other allusion. ( Hear, h ear .) Th e H on . and Learned Gentleman talked, after such language as that, of allaying animosities—and or pouring oil upon the troubled waters. Would this country, he asked, suffer their country, suffer Ireland—to have her peace sacrificed to the ambition of one man ?—( Cheers.) Would she allow him to destroy the prosperity of the country whilst he enriched himself with the contributions of her peasantry?— (Cheers.) Did not the Noble Lord (John Russell) say over and over again, that the distractions and disquietude of Ire land were attributable to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman ? Did not, in fact, the Noble Lord and his colleagues charge him with being the cause of the insu bordination existing in that country ?—( Hear, hear, hea r .) And did not the - Noble Lord call on all - who were well greeted to his Majesty's Government, to disconnect them selves from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and oppose themselves to the course he had taken. Had the Hon. and Learned Gentleman now altered that course ? In the very preliminaries to the present connexion, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman announced the expected alteration in the system of the late Whig Cabinet. " They would," he said, "be once more the good old Whigs, to whom, in their future Adminis tration, he was not unwilling to unite himself."—( Hear, and a laugh.) "But," said the Hon. and Learned Gentle man in his address, "do you think I have given up agitation, or abandoned the darling object of my waking hours—the re peal of the Union ? No. In every step I take that is my aim. When I before suspended its agitation, and advocated: reform, I told you I did so as a means to that one end."—( Hear, hear.) Such was the avowed end of the Hon. and Learned Gentle man, who now gave and received co-operation from some Hon. Gentlemen opposite, whose chief fault, in his eyes, was that they did not go far enough with him.—( Hear, hear.) What had the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said in June last of the Noble Lord and his colleagues? He called them—and cer tainly they were not very modified terms—" base, contemptible Ministry "—( Hear)—" atrocious Whigs "—( Hear, hear)-- " contemptible, drivelling Adminstration"—" the bane of Ire land"--and he called on Ireland to fling them off with scorn and contempt.—( Hear, hear.) Could the Noble Lord pos sibly, after an expression of opinion nowise equivocal in its meaning—could he, enjoying an honourable character and a high station—to attain any object of ambition, or give annoy ance to an opposite party, join himself to any person who so thought and so expressed himself of the Noble Lord's asso ciates, as well as himself ? The Noble Lord, perhaps, was perfectly appeased by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's adhesion, and the strength which the. Noble Lord's party were deriving from the cordial attachment of the Hon. and Learned- Gentleman.—( Hear.) But let not the Noble Lord flatter to deceive himself, he has not had the first proffers— the first wooings—the virginal embrace of the party to wh om he was now weded; the alliance was first offered to his (Mr. Shaw's) side of the House.—(Oh, oh.) Yes, it was—to him hear)—in that House openly, during the last Ses sion. " Now is the time," said the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, " for you, Tories, to join us—(laughter)—and turn out the base Whigs."—(Hear, hear.) Such was the previous opinions entertained of each other by the parties whom he had to 'congratulate on their well -assorted union.—( Hear, hear.) He now returned to the unliappy condition of their country. Was it possible it could be happy, in the unsettled state of the tithe question?—(Loud cries of " hear, hear," from the Op position.) He was anxious, and so were the landlords of Ire- land, for an equitable settlement of that question.—( Hear, hear.) His only desire was, that justice should be impartially administered to all. But if night after night parties were to be dragged before that House, could the angry feeling of par ties be allayed ? He did not seek to palliate the crimes to which all were, perhaps, subject. But if some of the corres pondence between Roman Catholics in Ireland were procured, Hon. Gentlemen at that side would be enabled to judge of the nature and extent of the persecution that was pi actised. This country must look to that, and at once. This was no time to try party tactics.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) He was glad to hear that cheer from Honourable Gentlemen, and he hoped they would put the spirit of what he had said into practice. The question must now be decided whether they were to have in Ireland anarchy or any government at all.—( Hear, hear.) Whether they were to have peace or agitation—secu rity for property, or a general scramble.—( Hear.) Safety for life or liberty-4 Loud cheers from the Opposition), or were to live in hourly apprehension of ass ass i na ti on a t th e hand of the midnight murderer ?—( Cheers.) It had come to that, whe ther in Ireland they were to enjoy the natural rights and liber ties of British freemen--( Loud cheering from the Opposition, echoed back by the Ministerial benches.) When he looked at the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell), he was reminded that the heaviest yoke under which his country could fail was the iron despotism of one single Dictator, who wilfully swayed to his mischievous purposes a deluded and ignorant multitude.— ( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Mr. O'CONNELL said, as the Hon. and Learned Gentle man (Mr. Shaw) had named him (Mr. O'Connell) in connec tion with what he would describe to be disturbances in Kerry, he begged to ask him if he were aware that not a single assault or offence against the law was committed during his (Mr. O'Connell's) canvass, or since ? If he have not heard of any assault or offence !ring committed, he requested him to ask the Hon. Member for Coleraine ( Alderman Copeland) the ex tent of outrage committed, on the other hand, by the Orange men in that part of Ireland.—( Hear. ) Mr. SHAW—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has put a question, which I shall answer, by stating that I did hear of an offence, and one in which the Hon. and Learned, gentleman was himself concerned. The Hon. and Learned gentleman I have been informed, went to the house o f a man named Bourke, in the town of Killarney, to ask 'him not to vote for the Knight of Kerry. The man refused, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman told him a cross should be painted on his door. Shortly after a party of men attacked Bourke's house, th, ,, door of which they smashed. Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and advancing towards the centre of the floor, slid—l declare most solemnly, in the presence of that GOD who is to judge me, the whole story is totally false. —( Loud cheering from the Opposition.) Mr. O'DWYER said the distempered state of Ireland being, attributable to agitation, was the mere cant of party. To go vern Ireland properly and effectively, they should discourage both parties, and show favour and approbation alone to those who were the friends of good government. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Shaw) had begun his observations by turn ing that, an Irish topic, into a train of personal remarks and invectives, which he would not undertake to say were very sa tisfactory to the House. He was one who felt little interest in personal invectives., and whatever might be the circum stances to which the Hon. and Learned G en tl eman a ll u d e d as . . having occurred in Dublin or elsewhere, he (Lord John Rus sell) felt that the tone in which the Hon. and Learned Gen- tleman addressed the House, was so hostile to all amity and peace—( Hear, hear)—indicated such violent hatred, such a total want of charity—( Cheers)—and evinced such a dire spirit of partizanship-_( Continued cheering)—that he regretted the Hon. and Learned Gentleman should have been appointed one of his Majesty's advisers in Privy Council.—( Loud and continued cheering.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had asked him whether he was about giving his support to the repeal of the Union ? When that question was discussed in Parliament, he gave to it every opposition.—( Hear, hear.) He was ready now, as he had been then, to oppose, by every means in his power, a repeal of the legislative Union, as tanta mount to a separation of the two countries.--( Cheers.) If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's memory would take him fur ther into the session, he would recollect that after voting against the repeal of the Union, he declared he could not satisfactory reconcile that vote to his conscience, unless justice were done to the complaints of the people of Ireland.— ( Cheers.) Every consideration should be shown to the claims and petitions of the people of Ireland—they should, in fact, receive from him as anxious attention as if he were an Irish Member, and it was only on that ground he could justify to his conscience the opposition he gave the question of repeal. —( Hear, hear.) lie also declared, at the time lie spoke against the repeal of the Union, that on the questions of Irish tithes and the Irish Church—and he had said so distinctly and emphatically—that if the forfeiture of office he then had the honour to hold were to be the consequence, lie woul',l not sit another day as a Minister of the Crown in that Mouse, unless the grievances complained of by the people of Ireland were redressed.—( Cheers.) What, then, did (Lord John Rus sell's) conduct amount to? On the one hand, if the lion. and Learned Gentleman agitate repeal, he, as he had done, should oppose him. On the other, when just causes of com plaint were brought before the House, he would feel it his duty to give them every support.--( Hear, hear.) He thought, then, that he should stand acquitted in the eyes of the House of inconsistency of conduct.--( Hear, hear.) He would al lude to a question which was not immediately before the House, but rather grew out of the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. lie (Lord John Russell) entered the House when the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer was discussing the illegality of the Orange societies. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that such societies might be strictly legal, though their existence, in a constitutional sense, might not be desirable. To that opinion lie ( Lord John Russell) subscribed and cordi a lly assente d. Th e l anguage of the Right Hon. Gentleman in that House was at all times in conformity with the admirable opinions he that night had given. But when he ( Lord J. Russell) looked to the construction of the Right Hon, Gentleman's Government—( Hear, hear)—it was quite obvious that the conduct of that Government would not be regulated by what had been said in that House. If tir; landlords of Ireland see of whom the Government is composed they will regard little the rounded periods o! Rue speeches, for they must be convinced that Orang'e societies will be the objects of that Government's special protection.—( Cheers. ) They had witnessed the result on the instant, in what had fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Colonel opposite (Colonel Perceval). Did ho say, after what had fallen from the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, that he would withdraw from a so ciety so discountenanced ?—( Hear.) On the contrary, the Hon. and Gallant Colonel dwelt on the necessity of keeping up a society, that if it be in the strict sense of the law illegal, was held together by secret bonds. There was also another point on which the people of Ireland would forya their opi nion of the extent of disapproval or protection Orange as sociations were likely to receive from the present Admini stration. It had been announced in the public papers, that one of the very appointments which had been contemplated was that of Lord Roden to his Majesty's Household— ( Hear, hear)-,-,a situation which would have placed the NR1%, 1 4 Lord immediately in attendance on his Majesty's per son, at the opening of Parliament, and on all State occa sions. That Noble Lord was the grand master of the Orange men of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Could any man believe that this Government, after contemplating such an appointment as that, meant to discourage Orange societies in Ireland ?-- ( Cheers.) It might be said that the Government were glad to receive the support of the Orangemen, although they in- Witled to discourage them. Though they may plead that as an excuse, they seem in one breath to discountenance them, while to the people of Ireland, who were the tue..-it concerned, they plainly appeared to take them into the greatest favour.— (Hear, hear.) The next question to which he would allude w4s ono on Which he could refer to the Noble Lord the l~r?~/ Member for Lancashire, who certainly did persevere in spite of the excitement raised against his views, until he established a system of education in Ireland based on the true principles of peace and charity. That question was brought first into the other House, where the present Government was the stronger. It was opposed on the grounds that the system was unscripttiral, and sanctioned a mutilation of the word of God. It was opposed in many places, among others at Exeter Hall, where - a Right Hon. Gentleman, a Privy Councillor, opposite, Mr. Shaw, opposed it in a speech, from which he would give the House an extract :—" The Government," said Mr. Shaw, "might make what regulation it pleased, but he trusted the people knew their duty too well to Submit to its enactments."---( Cheers from the Oppoeition.) Mr. SH A W—l deny any such speech. Mr. SH E IL—lt is a printed report. Mr. SHAW—No matter. I deny that what the Noble Lord is rending ever fell from me. Lord JOHN RUSSELL continued to read. "It might degrade our mitres—it might deprive us of our property—but if the Government dared to lay its hands on our Bible, then we must come to an issue—( Cheers from the Opposition.) We will cover it with our bodies, we will. My friends, will you permit your Christian brethren to cry to you in vain ? In the name of my country and of my country's God, I will appeal from a British House of Commons to a British public. —(Much cheering from the Opposition.) My countrymen would obey the laws so long as they were properly adminis tered; but if it was sought to lay sieri!egious hands on their Bible—to tear that standard of the living God, and raise a mutilated one in its stead ; then it would be no time to halt between two opinions —then in every valley and on every hill would resound the rallying cry of " To your tents, 0 Israel !" —( Loud and continued cheering from the Opposition.) That is a speech, continued thC Noble Lord, extracted from a paper of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's own and which bad been quoted by Lord Radnor in the House of Lords, although there the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had only taken that opportunity of denying it.--( Cheers.) The Orangemen of Ireland did think, and fairly, that when the late Ministry was overturned, they should get rid of the unscriptu ral system of education. It was the fate of the late Govern ment, from the impartial position they had taken, to have had to endure the fire of the two opposite parties. The Orangemen thanked his Majesty for dismissing a Ministry who had established an anti-scriptural system of education by mntilatine the word of God—such was the feeling of that party with respect to that system. Now, if any one principle was immutable it was that, an Act of Parliament, so far from being altered or opposed, while the law of the land—it was to be carried into effect to its fullest letter. How then were the Hon. Gentlemen opposite with the Hon. and Learned Gentle man (Mr. Shaw) to lend their assistance to a system which mutilated the word cf God ?—( Hear, hear.) Let them not stand by that system, or at once tell the Orangemen of Ireland, and all others opposed to that system of education, we think that system a wise one, and vou must receive it. Let the coun try have one declaration or the other-4 Cheers.) Let not the Government on the one hand promote and protect the mem bers of exclusive and intolerant associations, while on the other, they were assuming credit with a British House of Commons, for - the liberal and comprehensive policy on which it was dis posed to govern Ireland.—( Cheers.) That system he would tell them was not wise, and more than that, it was not honest.— ( Cheers.) He had, he trusted, vindicated satisfactorily the consistency of his own conduct, and having done so, he would ask Hon. 'Gentlemen opposite, on what uniform plan had they determined, on which Ireland was to be governed ?—( Loud cheering. ) Sir HENRY lIARI)INGE had never opposed the plan for national education, nor had his Right Hon. Friend near him ; but, on the contrary, both that Gentleman and himself had supported it. He confessed he was not a little surprised when he saw the Noble leader of the Opposition in that House coalesce in opinion with the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Dublin, when it was generally in the-recollection of Hon. Members that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had from time to time, and even very lately, denounced that Noble Lord and his late colleagues and supporters as fit objects far impeachment and the block.--( Hear.) A coalition with that Hon. and Learned Member was, in his opinion, a highly pro per topic to dwell on, to show the inconsistency of the - Noble Lord and his supporters, whom he had designated (without any qualification) as feeble, base, and contemptible. What would the House think of this coalition, after the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member in February, in Dublin, w h en profes sing his willingness to accept of office suitable to his ambi tion, and that only provided the Noble Lord and his political . friends came again into power, when it was part of that speech thht he wished nothing so much as the repeal of the Union, and hoped to see soon an Irish Parliament sitting in College-green ? After their known sentiments on repeal, - how could the Whig Opposition ever consent to associate itself with the leader of the Radical repeal party within that House, seated on the Opposition benches ? In reply to the observation made as to his Gallant Friend (Colonel Perceval), he begged to state, that a fals;e im pression had been attempted to be created against him, by attributing to him what he did not say. He had, with his • characteristic candour, said that were he convinced an Orange lodge was an illegal assembly, he would immediately cease to be a member of an Orange. lodge.—( Hear, hear.) Having repelled these, which formed the most prominent. points of the attack to-night, and not being able to devote his time to the perusal of Irish party Papers, he could not take upon himself to say how far the threat of affixing to a man's doer a death's head and cross-bores might have justified the Lord Lieutenant of Kerry county in conceiving it was a threat of assassination ; but this he knew, that he had seen a repre sentation from the highest authority—namely, that Noble Lord Lieutenant—that a conviction existed is the minds of almost all that nothing less than such a fearful result was ap prehended by voters, who would fain otherwise have voted ;iv the candidate who did not stand cn the interest of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin; and he also knew that many in that House were prepared to depose on oath that by that sym bol the party was intended to be marked out for assassination.— ( Hear.) In answer to the question of the Noble Lord, he would fearlessly and confidently, of his own knowledge, state it was the intention of the Irish Government to carry on that Government on the fairest and most impartial principles.— ( Loud cheering from the Ministerial benches.) Lord J. Rt SSEL Is remarked upon the absurdity of the inference attempted to be drawn, that from his voting, if ne cessary, to-night with the lion. and Learned Member, it was: an assent on his part to the general principles of the Hon. and, Learned Member for Dublin on other questions. He assured the [louse he had never given his assent to such a coalition sus that alluded to, nor had. he ever been asked to do so. What. was there singular in voting with that Hon. and Learned Mem ber, when it was well known that he and his colleagues in oTtee had voted frequently with him (Mr. O'C onne ll) for about a. year and a half on the reform and other questions? Might they not now vote again together ? Sir H. HARDING E, as easily as the Noble Lord, could change his mind when 'in power, when he had promoted Reform in Parliament—though he had said, in 1827, theee— were he in power with the Whigs—he could not came to the determination to carry the question of Reform, in Par liament. Lord JOHN RUSSELL explained that—in that in stance—sitting' as he did, on the Mi n i s t er i a l s id e o f the House, he had expressed the opinion that he and his friends would not be inclined then to carry the Reform question, be cause he did not feel that the advocates of Reform had urged the question with sufficient zeal and anxiety upon theLegis lature.—(Hear.) Mr. MA URI - CE O'CONNELL contended that the Nol& Lord Lieutenant of the county of Kerry had, though ple:iged to stand neuter in the last election, sought an occasion to break that engagement, and found it in the oft-alluded to raw head-and-bloody -bones. The Honourable. Member quoted a case where, in consequence of a refusal of a voter to tender his vote for t l 7.c 'Knight of Kerry, "the Lord Lieutenant' broke hit I , ll .'.:"o'ge, and in half an hour after impou n d e d t h e voter ' s cows as a distress for the hanging gale of rent. Mr. 'MULLINS contended the Knight of Kerry lost the good wishes of the voters because he had supported the great est oppressors of Ireland when they (the l)uke of Wellington and Sir IL Peel) were in office. It was this distrust lost him the election in 1831, in 1833, and lastly in 1835. The question was then put and carried. without a division, and the addreSs agreed to. Dr. BOWRING, for his Hon. Friend Mr. Hume, moved for a copy of the letter from the Right Hon. the Secretary at War to the Lords of the Treasury, respecting she office of Governor of Guernsey, and the emoluments from tithes of corn, from the King's revenue, and other sources ; also, a statement of the amount of these several emoluments, distin guishing the amount of each branch. Also for a return of the naval and military duties performed by the Right Hon. Lord Carrington as Captain of Deal Castle, and by the Captain and Lieutenant of Sandown Castle, stating whether resident or non-resident, and the amount of salary and emoluments re ceived by each, and from what funds paid. Also for a Select Committee on the preparing and printing the journals and other papers, including Acts of Parliament, printed for the two Houses and for the public. These three motions were agreed to. PRINTED PAPERS. On the motion of Mr. HUME that a Select Committee he appointed to consider the manner in which the Journals, Bills, and Papers, arc prepared and printed for the use -of both Houses of Parliament ; their numbers, expense, distribution, and quantity in store; the number of Acts of Parliament printed for both Houses of Parliament, and for the public service, their expense, and distribution ; also, those for the use of the public, and the prices at which sold ; and the esta. blishments requisite for conducting the same ; to consider whether any and what alteration can be made in the existing system, with benefit to the public; and also for reports from Select Committees on printing, Session 1828 ; on King's Printers' patent, 1831-2 ; Public Documents, 1833 ; House of Commons' officers and fees, 1833-4 ; Private Bill Fees, 1834, it was referred to the following Committee :4dx. Hume, Joseph I3rotherton, J. Sandon, Lord Guest, J. Murray, J A. Gladstone, W. E. 0 Brien C. Talk, Charles A. Lowther; viscount Wrottesley, Sir J. B. Bowring, Dr. Braiwton, T. W. Tooke, W. Rice, T. 8 Plgot, li. . Willis, J. • Fremantle, Sir Divctt, E. Knatchbull, Sir E. Sinclair, G. Littleton, E. J. Inglis, Sir R. 11. Grimston, lion. E. Scholefleld, J. Ashley, Lord Rohe, it. M. Ruthren, E. S. Graham, Sir J. It. G. Pollock, sft. Smith, It. Vernon Elphinstone, IToward • Mr. : , Sergeant O'LOGHLIN moved for the copy of any letter or report addressed to the Chief or Under Secretary for Ireland by any Magistrate, or any inspector or officer of police relative to a meeting of the Protestants of Tyrone, held at Dungannon on the 19th of December last, or the proceedino at that meeting. Sir H. H ARDINGE had not had time to communicate with the office in Ireland, where the documents eves e depo sited, but did not believe;there would be any objection to their production. . The motion was-then deferred until the 20th of this month. Sergeant O'LOGHLIN then moved for the copy of r , -- N ■