The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-18 00:00:00

I kind, for they could only be consulted on questions of law arising on the proceedings of the house in its -- legislative or judicial character. As to the fears of the Right Rev. Prelate, he would say that all the , Bill wr.s intended to accomplish was to place the law clearly and undoubtedly on the footing on which the Right Rey. Prelate stated it now rested, and to make it lawful fur her Majesty to appoint an ambassador to the Court of Rome should she so think fit, on the advice of her re sponsible Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND said he was prepared to vote against the second reading of this Bill, for in his opinion there never had been a time less fitting than the present to make any further concession to the Roman Catholics. This measure would be considered a con cession by the Roman Catholics of Ireland, who, with their priests, had already taught this country the lesson, that the more that was given the more they demanded; the greater the concession the more ungrateful they were for what wss done for them He entirely con , curred with his Noble Friend who had moved that this Bill be read a second time thie day six months; nt the same time he asked his Noble Friend not to divide the Rouse on this occasion, because it was clear from the state of the House the Government had a majority pre sent, and a division showing that majority might in crease the alarm throughout the country. lie felt that this measure ought not to pass—he entered his protest against it, and though he was willing to go into Corn mittee for the amendment of the Noble Duke (Duke of Wellington), and for that prohibiting any ecclesiatic being received as an ambassador from the Court of Rome, nothing would induce him to go one step further witk the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of ELDON said, as yet he had not beard a tingle valid reason why this Bill even as amended ha the manner proposed should pass into a law. lie admitted the importance of the measure, but thought, at least, it Ought to be postponed until the next session of Par liament, in order that time might be afforded for a distinct surrender by the Pope of the claim made by his predecessors of a right to interfere with the temporal rights of the Sovereign of this realm. This surrender the country had a right to expect to be made, and, with these views, if the question went to a division, he should give his vote against the second reading of the Bill. The Earl of ST. GERMANS thought the vast num bers of Roman Catholics who were to be found in every part of the British dominions certainly did render it most expedient that every facility should be given to the Government to hold communications with the Pope, whom they acknowledged as their head. He hesitated not to say, that if such relations as it was the object of .• s this Bill to establish had existed years ago, we should not have heard so much of the violent conduct of certain parties recently in Ireland. It was impossible for cases . , not to arise in some part of her Majesty's dominions, in ' e reference to Roman Catholics, hi which a consultation with the Pope on behalf the British Government would have a most beneficial effect on the peace and security of these realms. He did not at all participate in the apprehensions of the Noble Lord (Lord Stank)). Those apprehensions, in his opinion, were perfectly idle and chimerical. It was competent to the Pope to send . attY number of missionaries, Jesuits or others, members of religious orders, to this country at the present time. lie knew perfectly well that there were many such in this Country at the present time, The agents of Rome were e . 2 - busily engaged in this country, but if the chief agent s - • . Were regularly appointed an ambassador to the British • .."Court, there would then be less danger than there was . at present, because all his acts would be more closely . watched and better known.—(Hear, hear.) Other Pro : netestafat countries had long ago taken the step proposed Y,' ' ..by this Bill. It should be recollected that this was not `n l'!no a Bill to compel her Majesty to hold communication ''A'' . l: '''e,'Ovith Rome ; if at any time it should be found expedient es e e_ .I t i. , e e n 'to cut off such communication, it would be perfectly lienl.coin a,tent to her Majesty to do so on the reasonable repro !:',. g.ittistitions of the British Government.—(Hear, hear.) 'n'',---. "Their Lordillipe might be aware that a gentleman ~. professing the Roman Catholic religion (Mr. More ' O'Ferrall) had been recently appointed Governor ' Cf Malta, and it appeared that some differences existed between the Roman Catholic Bishop of that island and the Government. Now, their Lordships , must perceive the great advantage which would arise to . her Majesty being allowed to hold direct communica tions with the Pope on the subject of those differences. . The Pope, on being appealed to by the British Govern meat, might interfere for the purpose of requiring the subordinate bishop to accede to the wishes of the British G overnment. —(Hear, hear.) He trusted that their Lordships would withanction the introduction of tan ecclesiastic clauseregard to the exclusion of an Courtfcclesiaetic from the office of ambassador from the of Rome, because the proposition was most mon strous.—(llear, hear.) None of the other Courts to w hich Rome sent a representative required any such s tipulation. Wi t h regar d to what had fallen from the N oble Earl, as to upholding in all its integrity the su retaaey of her Majesty, he heartily concurred therein, Ind would be prepared to support any clause that mi ght be deemed necessary for preserving it to the fullest extent.—(Cheers.) _ , Lord REDESD A LE did no t thi n k it d es i ra bl e to e nt e r :t r present into a discussion of the proposed amendment lis_ th r.rse Noble Earl as to the exclusion of ecclesiastics. "e ope hadenn esee supreme authority in this country !1.1 t emporal as well as spirituel matters, and it behoved their Lordships to watch the efforts of Rune with ex treme jealousy. Before the Bill was allowed to pass this country ought to receive an assurance that the temporal li ,,U o therity to w hi c h h e a ll u ded was no longer claimed 1.33 r ~ 'be- For the purpose of abolishing any pretensions of that s ort, he had prepared a clause which he should noose in C omm i ttee . I t was t o th e f o ll ow i ng e ff ec t : — , • _Provided al wa y s , an d b e i t enac t e d, th a t it s h a ll no t ar, ab_ .clloawful for h er M a j es ty t o rece i ve an y suc h A m b as - Envooffir,y ce Extraordinary, Minister Plenipotentiary, _t. oth er until the Court of Rome shall have deelared that it doth not claim, and distinctly disown, an Y temporal or civil jurisdiction, power, superiority, or pre-eminence direct or indirect, within this realm.' The Marquis o f LANSI)OWNE replied. With refe rence to what had fallen from the Noble Duke opposite (thee Duke of Ri c hmond) he begged to say that this Bill o ffered no concession to the Pope. It was a concession to expediency, to state necessity ; it would afford facili ties to this country to defend and assert its best inte rests—(heer, hear)—and that was the ground on which it was recommended to the Legislature. Let it not go f orth!to the public that this measure made any conces °ion to the Roman Catholics. With regard to the ex . nressions of the Noble Lord (L or d Stanley) in referenc e to Lord Minto's mission to Rome, he was also anxious to say that there was not one act connected with that mis -B,l'nn, no one letter or i ns t ruct i on g i ven to the Earl of f'finto, no one act done by the Earl of Minto, which he t _ 11 :) Marquis of Lansdowne) was not prepared to defend, an d which he was not prepared to state had been done for th e advantage and interests of the country, and which, c i,.. l t were to be done again he should not be prepared to inen(ilear.) That very mission, so dwelt apon by the tl ble Lord, to his (the Marquis of Lansdowne's) mind, , e "Do med the best, the strongest, and the most unanswer "tueel e that could be selected for illustrating the paramount 411,.. aa11y of this Bill.—(Cheers.) By Earl Minto's pre in;" ill Switzerland a horrid civil war, which might have meted the whole of Europe, was prevented. liked STANLEY—That has nothing to do with this e Ti te Marquis of LANSDOWNE contended that it had . ere nce lotr e d 'to the very object for which the Bill had been 1314 0 n eed. The Right Rev. Prelate near him (the els") o f Winchester) said the Government were pli, h snY enabled to do that which they sought to accorn nethevY this Bill, and therefore the measure was alto di r ueneces Th w s however, this important se uev necessary. ere ; a , do Which 'Qn to be drawn, that the Government sought to Whi c h an open and avowed manner, and by means that which was now effected secretly, indirectly, an rcuitousl —Li ar hear.) The mission of Earl .‘ullt° had been Y. ( e ' Lord ker., referred to. That Noble was • tad red to Switzerland, he was accredited to Florence tlo een ae now accredited to Naples. In passing from deli nn co to N ap l es, he certa i n l y did , b ut no t w ithout hi s :V . , pass some time at Rome, and the necessity of th e cling there w ith ou t a di s ti nc t m i ss io n was one of nfouid strengest reasons for passing a measure which ken, e nable us to enter into direct and explicit diplo hea..,e°rnmunication with the Court of Rome.—(Hear, down ( ' )1 1 these grounds, he (the Marquis of Lana- Beco b .,/ hoped their Lordships would consent to the e nt. n reading of the Bill. If their Lordships should t ,,, r ten t, t to the second reading he should fix to-mor tho `' rri day) forgoing into Compeittee, and he nght a f t or " in !l* the time that had already been afforded a d a .,. daringafter the measure that would not be too early The.). ---(llear.) me at Duke - Duke of NEWCASTLE withdrew his amend oru,r,,anbd the Bill was then read a second time, and nnt,, v t to be committed to-morrow (this day). tt Lordships then adjourned. Th ei I I IOUSE OF COM N MOS, Feb. 17. Poure 0 cock. ?I'EAKER took the Chair a few minutes before Si r J .. MARLOW ELECTION. tiitt e P AKINGTON reported from theCorn certme appoi n t e d to try the merits of the petition of ele c t ors of the borough of Great Marlow 40jost the return of 11 ,.0 lr. Thomas Price Williams th rl i t ti ti e,tritehlesergowoontlioeNmvelo‘.haa ox, that they had decided been duly elected. lti T HE WINDOW DUTIES. _ iteh o petition IA CGREGOR presented a from th! ta sters in Gl asgow, pray i ng for the repeal of I,olvindow duties. to th r d ALFRED PAGET presen t e d a petition I.,',ptne effect from Lichfield. IS rE D EFENCES OF THE COUNTRY. akcai lIROTHERTON presented several petitions Si any in crease i n our war establishments. fro n ,"'„uar petition s were presente d by 111 r. Wyld, by N I 43 0oirnin ; b y D r. Bowring • by Mr. Bouverie ; lead Cobde n , f rom the West Riding of Yorkshire, other places ' • and by M r . O s b orne, f rom S ta i nes. HEALTII OF TOWNS. tur tyo ; LUSFEILD presented a petition from the tll,aad aldermen of Bradford in favour of this JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL. t o ' 110 \VRING presented several petitions in O r ." this Bill. frotxlmilar petitions were presented by Mr. Cowan, castle;balkeith ; by an Hon. Member, from New and b Y another lion. Member, from Portarlington ; by Lord A. Paget (3), from Lichfield. .A.II.I:2,„°RNEYS' CERTIFICATE DUTY.four tolkito 4..LuDG-r-4 1 'S presented a petition from An A s ' Praying. for the real of this duty. In. tr uer of presented a considerable nu .51 de to the same effect, from solicitors I t tv,j),,,3l_eldt ]Sdarliet Drayton,. Hereford, Govor '4"443 1 and other placels. .4_ THE POOR-LAWS. Mr. ROBINSON presented a petition from Toole complaining of the operation of the poor-laws, and praying that the poor might be maintained by .a na tional rate. THE TEA DUTIES. Mr. COWAN presented a petition from the Uham her of Commerce of Edinburgh, praying fair the repeal of those duties. CHURCH-RATES. Captain PRCIIILY: presented a petition from Brighton, praying that Dissenters might be exel opted from the payment of these rates. LOCAL TAXATION (IRELAND). Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that he would, upon an early day, move for leave to bring in a Bill to ex empt small tenements from local taxation. ISLE OF MAN. Dr. BOIVRING moved for tabular ret urns, showing the number of vessels, with the atnou nt of tonnage, that have entere i the ports of the Lite of Man during the years ending the sth day of Jam: ary, 1847 and 1848, distinguishing each port ; shwa :ing the several quantities of goods allowed to be imp() rted into the Isle cif Man under license, the quantitiq s of such and other goods subject to duty car ried into the island, - with the rate of (i uty charged thereon, and the several amounts re ceived, and amounts of revenue received &wing the years ending the sth day of January 1846, 11;47, and 1848 ; also showing the several amounts of public moneys in the late Clerk of the Rolls' hands in the Isle of Man, on the 13th day of March, 1847, with the names of each estate to which they belong, and showing where the said moneys were deposited on the said day ; if in any bank or bankers' hands, in what manner the interest on the said money was appropriated, and by VJ hat authority : and the number and names of the sevt:ral high bailiffs, magistrates, judges, and members of the House of Keys, who preside as judges in the civil or ecclesiastical courts in the Isle of Man, who are pr ac tising attorneys in the said island, and showing the names of the several courts where they preside as judges, and the courts wherein they practise as ad vocates or attorneys.—Motion agreed to. SHANNON NAVIGATION. Dr. BOWRING also moved for copies of the evidei ice taken before the Commissioners in November a,nd December, 1847, for inquiring into the conduct of the Shannon Navigation Commissioners, with copy of their report, and of any report of the audit bon.rd thereon ; and of the first report of the Commissioners appointed to audit and report upon the accounts of t he Commissioner, of Public Works in Ireland, with copy of any report of the audit hoard thereon : also for re turns of the Shannon Navigation Commissioners, and of the persons employed under them, with their sala ries and allowances : and of the Commissioners of the Board of Works in Ireland, and of the persons employed under them, with their salaries and allowances: and. of the Commissioners and others specially employed in arranging and examining the accounts of the moneys advanced by the Board of Works in Ireland, and expended under the Acts 1 Vic., c. 21, 9 Vic., c.l, and 9 and 10 Vic., c. 107, with their salaries and allowances, and incidental expenses; also, the funds out of which the payments have been made, and the authority for payment. Motion agreed to. THE SOLICITORS OF THE COURT OF CHANCERY. Mr. C. ANSTEY moved that the petition of the solicitors of the Court of Chancery, presented on th© 10th of February, be printed with the votes. Motion agreed to. JEWISH DISABILITE S. Mr. BUMF presented a petition from the burgh of Montrose in favour of the removal of Jewish dis• Sir R. INGLIS presented several petitions against the measure for the removal of the Jewish dis abilities. Mr. LAW also presented a petition to the same effect. SUNDAY TRADING. Mr. HUME presented a petition praying the House not to interfere in any manner with Sunday trading. OATH OF SUPREMACY. Mr. LAW presented a petition praying the House not to pass any measure calculated to remove the oath of supremacy, or to allow Romish ecclesiastics to appear in the public thoroughfares in the dress of any of their orders. GAME-LAWS. Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that, this day fortnight, it was his intention to ask leave of the House to in troduce a Bill for the amendment of the game-laws. PETITION S. Lord INGESTRE presented a petition from a place in Staffordshire, in favour of the health of Towns Bill Mr. FORBES presented a petition from a town in Scotland praying for a redeal of the Bank Act of 1844. Mr. lIERRIES presented a petition, signed by 130 of the merchants of Liverpool, praying the House to relax the restricting provisions of the Bank Charter Act. Lord NUGENT presented a petition praying fcr the abolition of capital punishments. ELECTION COMMITTEES. Mr. B. COCHRANE wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chairman of the General Committee of Elections. He wished to know whether it was not the duty of an officer of the Howe to give notice on 'Wednesday, at twelve o'clock, to the several Election Committees that the house was sitting. No such notice was given yesterday to the Committee of which he was a member, and the consequence was that many Hon. Gentlemen who wished to be present during the debate on the motion brought forward by the Hon. Member for Youghal were prevented from being in the House. He thought it a great hardship that Committees should meet on Wednesdays when the House sat on that day. However, he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it was the duty of any officer of the House to intimate to Com mittees that the House was sitting, and whether upon that intimation the Committees had power to adjourn ? Mr. FOX MA.ULE said he did not feel himself called upon to answer the question, but he appre hended Committees had power to adjourn for short intervals. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. G. THONIPSON wished to know from the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford when it was his intention to move for the appointment of a Committee relative to the New Palace at West minster? Sir R. INGLIS said that he should bring forward the motion on Thursday, the 2 , 1 of March. FINANCE. Mr. HEB.RIES then rose to move the following resolution, of which be had given notice :—That, locking to the state of distress which has for some time prevailed among the commercial classes, and to the general feeling of distrust and alarm by which the embarrassments of trade have been aggravated, it is the opinion of this House that her Majesty's Ministers were justified, during the recess of Par liament, in recommending to the Bank of England, for the purpose of restoring confidence, a course of proceeding at variance with the restrictions imposed by the Act 7 and 8 Vic., c. 32. That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House upon the said Act. He proposed further to move in Committee, that it' is expedient that the limitations imposed by the Act 7 and 8 Vic., c 32, upon the Bank of England, and the Act 8 and 9 Vic., c. 46 and 37, in relation to the issue of notes payable on demand, be suspended, subject to such conditions as may be provided by any Act to be passed for that purpose. His motion consisted, in point of fact, of two motions, and it would be the most correct course if he blended the tsvo motions in one. The subject of the motions arose out of the operation of the Bank Act in the last year. The events of last year created more alarm, distress, and pain than had ever been produced within the memory of any person present. Never was there seen such a period of perfect prostration. The fai urea which occurred in the latter end of the year were in point of magnitude andim portance never surpassed. There were no less than 220 failures of considerable amount, of these 85 represented property to the amount of 12,000,0001. The total loss occasioned by the whole of the failures had been estimated at a sum of not less than 30,000,000/. Such events as these ought not to be passed without the most anxioo and serious consideration upon the part of those connected with mercantile affairs—(llea;, hear)—in order to ascertain if possible the causes of such calamitous results, and to endeavour: to find out some remedy to prevent their recurrence in future.—(Hear, hear.) The object of the first part of his resolution was to record the opinion of this House respecting the con duct of her Majesty's Government, in taking steps to stay the desolation and ruin which then swept over the commercial establishments of this country, to record their opinion that the Government in taking that step were well advised, because they found that by taking that step a remedy was really found, and the mischief as erted.—(llear, hear.) What was the position in which this House was now placed ? It was this. Her Majesty had announced to them that she had. been advised to adopt a most extraordinary course, which, however, was justified afterwards by the result, and had authorised the violation of a law recently enacted, having for its very object the en forcement of the strictest obedience to its provisions. —(llear, hear.) Up to this time the House had not expressed any opinion.on the subject of that violation, nothing had been done to ascertain or record the opinion of this House upon that violation of the law.—(Hear, hear.) He held that her Majesty's Government were justified for what they had done, but it was necessary that some public record of that opinion should be made.—(Hear.) Why bad not }this been done before ? He must say that her Ma jesty's Government had not acted, in his opinion, so fairly or frankly to the House as he thought they ought to have done.—(llear, hear.) There had been an evident desire upon their part to avoid any debate upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.) Upon the very first night of the session the Right lion. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a sort of a rush down to the House for the purpose of appointing a Committee to sit upon the question, instead of having a debate upon theisubject. But still this Committee, though appointed, would not touch the point which he now brought before the House. Ile felt it his duty, therefore, to bring for ward this subject with a view to its being properly discussed and a deliberate opinion recorded upon it. It was maintained by some Members of that House that the Act of 1844 did not create the difficulties that occurred last year. Well, if that were so, what necessity was there for relaxing its provisions in October ? Upon what other ground could Government justify the policy they then pursued than that the Act had produced the mischief?—(hear, hear.) But there could hardly be a doubt that the Act brought into existence the mercantile difficulties this country suffered under last year, and he would venture to tell the House that had the relaxation of its provisions been delayed one week longer, the commerce of London would have been stopped. Ihe reduced state of the Bank securities had given rise to the utmost alarm, and those who had money in their possession were exceedingly cautious to whom they advanced it, if, indeed, they would lend or part with it at all. But it was said this state of things was not necessarily the consequence of the Act of 1844, but arose out of the mismanagement of the Bank. Now he thought he should be able to show that it was no such thing, and that no skill or ability on the part of the Bank directors could have averted the crisis which happened last year. He would give a simple relation of the events that oc curred in 1847. The Act gave rise to dis tinctpanics at two distinct periods of the year. In the early part of the year the demands made upon the Bank for the purposes of food gave rise to the utmost alarm, and when the coffers of the Bank be came reduced to the lowest point tolerated by the Act, a crisis arose that shook many noble commercial houses in the country.—(Hear.) It had been said that great mismanagement had taken place on the part of the Bank of England ; he had looked most carefully into the subject, and he saw no reason for saying that there was any mismanagement on the part of that establishment. Added to this, he was convinced that the acts of the Bank had not led to the monetary crisis that took place last year. He believed that the inherent vice was in the Act itself, and not in those entrusted with carrying it out, and believing such to be the case, he should move the suspension of that Act. It, was probably true that the issue of bank-notes had not conformed itself to the fluctuation of the bullion. The real effects of the operation of the bul lion upon the issue was in direct opposi tion to the theory of the Bill. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth had himself admitted that although there was a considerable reduction in the amount of bullion in the coffers of the Bank, still there was no corresponding diminution of the issues of bank-notes.—(Hear, hear.) The rule was that for every million of bullion decreased in the coffers a corresponding restriction of one million in the cir culation should take place. Now the decrease in the bullion at one period of last year was about 9,000,000/. ; there ought therefore to have been a corresponding reduction in the circulation of 9,000,0001. What would have been the effects of such a reduction in the circulation of a country where it was assumed that 20,000,0001. was a sufficient amount to meet all the demands for the circulating medium of the country ? The operation of the Act of 1844 prevented the Bank of England during the late pressure from issuing a single note to relieve the pressure of the crisis, although at that time 8,000,0001. of bullion was lying idle in the coffers of the Bank.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") It had been said that the Bank of England had acted in error in reducing their rate of discount to so low a sum as 2i per cent. It might be that for the interests of the country they had acted erroneously, but the directors were bound to act in the best manner they could for the pro motion of the interests of their constituents.—(Hear, hear.) The framers of the Act had no right to corn plain of this conduct. When the Act passed there were 16,000,000/. of bullion in the Bank of England, and although they charged a low rate of discount, still up to the middle of 1845, not only had no diminution taken place in the quantity of bul lion, but it had actually risen to the sum of 16 ,600,0001. (Hear, hear)—a larger amount than the Bank had ever possessed during the whole period of its history.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time there was no doubt that the Bank of Eng land was in some measure responsible for the undue expansion of commerce, which was consequent upon the low rate of discount which they charged.—(Hear.) The rate of 2i per cent. discount was, however, continued when there was a sensible diminution in the amount of bullion, caused, no doubt, by the failure of cne of the staple articles of food in this country. The rate of discount then rose to three and a half per cent. Again the bullion rose in amount to the sum of 16,356,000/., and the discount was again lowered to 3 per cent., which was conti nued from that period to the month of January, 1847. On the 26th of December, 1846, there was more than 15,000,0001, of bullion in ;the Bank. But in January, 1847, the pressure upon the metallic resources of the Bank began to be severely felt, for it fell from upwards of 15,000,0001. in December to almost 14,000,0001. The Bank was not wanting in taking precautionary mea sures, for in January, 1847, it raised the rate of interest to 31 per cent. The next week the drain continued, and the Bank once more raised the rate of interest to 4 per cent., at which they kept it until the diminution of the bullion to 9,867,0001. in September or October, when it was raised to 5 per cent. He thought he had now shown that there had been, at all events, no neglect, no absence of watchfulness, upon the part of the Bank; that, with the rise arid fall of their bullion resources, they had diminished or increased the rates of interest; and that, in short, they had sedulously followed in the very foot steps of the Act, which, it could no longer i.e dis guised, was the real cause of what had occurred.— (Cheers.) But it had been said that if the Act had failed in securing the public against a great monetary derange ment, it had at all events been effective in one respect — securing the convertibilitya the paper circulation. Now he (Mr. Herries) would say with, great deference, that the Act had done nothing whatever to secure the con vertibility of our paper circulation.—(Hear, hear.) There was a great difference between saying that con vertibility was secure, and saying that the Act had occasioned that security.—(Hear, hoar.) The Act was passed when there was 16,000,000/. of bullion in tho Bank—in its progress that bullion had declined to less than 10,000,000/. Were they to laud this Act for its having prevented a still further decrease?—(Hear, hear.) If they would give it such praise, they were bound to show upon what grounds it was entitled to that praise.— (Hear, hear.) But in what state was the Bank in October last? Why did the Government send their persuasive or recommendatory letter to the Bank if this Act worked so well? Was there not a want of con fidence? Was there not a general want of credit? Was there not an almost universal fear and distrust? and where then was the security afforded by the Act, and where was the use of securing money which could not be used?—(Hear, hear.) He would contend that they were much better off under the old system; and he con tended, with great deference to the high authorities by whom his opinion was opposed, that the country would have been in a much better position if this Act had never been passed.—(Hear, hear.) That as his strong, sin cere, and matured conviction, after the fullest and most careful deliberation upon the subject. Ho thought it would not be altogether useless to endeavour to show to the House what might have taken place under the old system under similar circumstances. What would the Bank have done under similar circumstances to those which occurred between January and October, 1847, if it had been unfettered by those new regulations and re strictions, and if it had been at liberty to make use of all its resources for the purpose of discharging all its liabilities ? It would have looked to the circumstances which had occasioned the drain, to the possible pressure, to the causes of the drain, and the probability or im probability of its duration ; it would have considered all its resources, its gold, and notes—its reserve ; and it would have, as on all former occasions, have done its utmost to meet the exigency, and to have provided, not only for its own internal interests, but for those of the public, which, he felt bound to say, the Bank had never neglected.—(Hear, hear.) Between January and April, 1847, the Bank would have carefully looked to the state of the foreign exchanges, and if it had it would have found them favourable—it would have looked to the course of commerce, and would have found that no great falling-off had taken place there ; it would also have considered the failure of one of the principal articles of food, and seen that great exer tions would be made for procuring provisions from abroad—exertions that 'would require a considerable drain of gold. But the Bank, if lett to itself, would not have caused alarm by suddenly raising the rate of inte rest to a high figure—they would have felt perfect con fidence in their gown resources—they would have felt perfectly assured that there would be full convertibility, and they would have altogether prevented the demand which unfortunately arose for internal purposes.—(Hear, hear.) Ile hoped the Government would not altogether trust to the Committee which had been appointed. He believed the danger still impended, and that the mone tary affairs of the ccuntry were on wrong principles, and that there was no guarantee that what had happened last year might not happen again in the present year, or in the next.—(Hear.) The Government might, perhaps, find it more convenient to wait until the Committee had reported, however tedious that delay might be.—(Hear, hear.) The Government might wish to avoid the responsibility of any interference with the pre sent Currency Laws, awl might wish to throw th e responsibility upon the Committee ; but immediate legislation upon the subject was necessary. Th e y were, beyond all dispute, in a position of great dan ger—([Tear)—they had, he repeated, hanging over their heads the possible recurrence of that catastrophe which had occurred last year. It was the duty of the Govern peat and of that House to do all they could to remove TIE SUN, LONDON, that incubus which still pressed upon the springs of in dustry, and which damaged public, confidence and public credit. It was their duty to at least endeavour to restore a better order of things —a system of management under which the commercial activity and enterprise of this country might be once more advantageously exercised. —(Hear.) It was not upon this country alone that this pressure had fallen—it had fallen upon Scotland likewise, in which country great depression existed ewing to our present monetary regulations, lie asked them at pre sent, for the sake of the commerce of the country—for the sake of the industry of the country—for the sake of the manufacturing districts, where the labouring classes were now labouring under great distress—for the sake of the moneyed interests themselves, not of those who had accumulated large fortunes under the operation of the present Act—(hear, hear) but for the sake of the general and industrious monetary interests—he entreated the House to agree to the proposition he now =de to them, which would replace those interests in the slate of comparative safety—he believed he might say complete safety—which they enjoyed before the passing of this Act. The measure he proposed was a purely reme dial one, and if Parliament in its wisdom should at any future time determine to adopt a new system in place of that which IT PIS at present existing, there was nothing in his motion which could hind any one either to one opinion or another. lie hardly thought it right to tres pass further upon the patience of the House with regard to this branch of the motion. He was aware be had treated it very imperfectly, but it had been his wish to confine himself throughout to simple argument. On the first part of his motion, however, it might still be neces sary to offer a few observations. lie was aware that to this part of his motion it would be objected by many that they wore not satisfied with the conduct of her Majesty's Government—that they did not wish to ex press any opinion as to the course which Government took in October last; but that if they must do so, they thought Government ought to have interfered earlier, and that if they had done so much mis chief would have been prevented. Now, he was undoubtedly of the opinion that if the Act of 1846 had been set aside at an earlier period, it would have been better for the country; but then he looked to the re sponsibility of her Majesty's Government—ho was willing to put himself in their position, and consider the monstrous responsibility they incurred by their uncon stitutional act of suspending the Act, which was a step to be taken only at the last extremity.—(Hear.) Then some persons might object that there was a Committee already sitting upon this subject, and that the House ought to wait for their report. Now, if any Hon. Gen tleman thought the Committee which was now sitting was likely . to propose any measure that would relieve the present distress—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—of course he could not expect his vote. Then it might also be objected that there was no cause for apprehension, for her Majesty's Government had ulready, when the case was urgent, taken a step to relieve commercial distress, and that if the like circumstances were to occur, there could be no doubt they would do so again. To this he would answer, that it was not fair to throw the whole responsibility upon Ministers, and that if Ministers interfered at all, it would only be, as on the last occa sion, at the last extremity. Upon the whole, there fore, he submitted his motion with confidence to the House.—(C heers.) Mr. HASTIE (Paisley) rate with no ordinary satis faction to second the motion, and ho did so with this strong conviction on his mind, that he had never before heard a more able, clear, and pratical explanation of the question than that to which the House had just listened. It was, he thought, very clear, that if this Act were per mitted to remain, whenever 'here was a short harvest, or a foreign loan, or a disposition on the part of the people generally to hoard money, there would be distress in the country. No rise in the rate of interest would prevent a drain of bullion, when that drain was caused by the purchase of foreign corn or the other causes he had mentioned. If the Act of 1844 were of that utility which some parties would have them believe, there was still no occasion for its remaining, because it had not placed them in any better condition than they were in before. In 1838 there was the sum of 10,000,0001. in the Bank. The pressure was then not so great as in 1846, because there was no failure in the potato crop, nor was the bad harvest which had occurred in England ge neral over the continent; bat if there had been only 10,000,000/. in the Bank in 1847, as there was in 1838, he would ask what their position would have been in that case? The banking department must have stopped pay ment, and he need hardly say that if one department of the Bank stopped, whatever might have been the amount of bullion in another department, it would have been said at once by the general public that the Bank of England had failed. He would further observe that pre vione to 1844 the Bank of England had never allowed discounts below 4 per cent.; but on the passing of the Bill they were told they would have nothing to do but to attend to their business as bankers; and believing that, and having a large stock of notes in hand, they naturally turned them to the beat account they could, and thus reduced the rate of discount to 2f per cent. The consequence was that bills for short time went to the Bank, while bills for six, nine, and ten months were eagerly sought after by the brokers and bankers, with a view to discounts. This it was which had given such a stimulus to credit as, in a great measure, to be the cause of the umiue speculation that succeeded. Such was not the effect which any measure of this [louse ought to produce, and yet there could be no doubt that the effect of the Bill of 1844 was, when money was plentiful, t,) render it more abundant, and when it was scarce to add to the scarcity ; so that in its twofold operation it was dan gerous to the country. It was au extraordinary fact, which the !louse would do well to bear in mind, that a rise of per cent. on the bills afloat, which were calcu lated at an average rate of Go.),00a,000/. a year, was a charge of 20,000/. per month upon the commercial in terest. Now the interest upon these bills had occesion ally been raised as high as 3 or 4 per cent. ; so that the loss must have been enormous. lie thought the greatest condemnation of the Bill was to be found in the speech of the Right lion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the former discussion, when lie stated that, not withstanding the many suggestions; he had received from ao many deputations which he then received, ho and his colleagues found that nothing would do but a suspension of the Act, and that as soon as the Act was suspended it had the magical effect of restoring confidence, and caus ing even more bullion to enter the Bank than was re moved out of it.—(Hear, hoar.) lie cordially seconded the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Right lion. Gentleman had truly said, at the outset of his remarks, that though he would make one speech he would submit two motions. He thought no person who read the resolutions submitted by the Right Hon. Gentleman could entertain a doubt of that. The one motion expressed approbation of the step which Go vernment had taken in October last; the other went to pledge the House to an opinion that the Act of 1844 and 1845 ought to be permanently suspended. There could be no doubt t h at h e might be right as to the sus pension of the Act in October, and yet wrong as to the propriety of susp endin g it now. ( hi the other hand, Gentlemen may be dis posed to blame Government for Right lion. G ent l eman sa i d the Govern ment accorded a discussion on the la s t o ccas ion. He (the Chancellor of the E xchequer) did not know what the Right lion. Gentleman m eant b y that statement, for now. suspending 'e in October, and yet be willing to suspend he had certainly gone, he feared, at greater length than was agreeable to the House, into the whole ques tion—the discussion lasted for three nights. Twenty two Hon. Gentlemen gave their opinions upon it, and simply because no other persons appeared disposed to offer their opinions the debate was closed.—(Cries of No, no, the debate was adjourned.") That was be cause nobody else seemed willing to address the House. With t regard to o f the o resolution expressing approbation of of course, he had nothing c to say. His o wn o p inion was that he had done right, and if the Hen s° chose now to express approbation, the theconlu Government would receive it with satisfaction ; but as he could not approve of the second part of the motion, and thought it ill-timed, he had no objection if the Right lion. Gentleman would withdraw the second part, that he should withdraw the first also—(Laughter)—and then the whole motion would he as if it had not been. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed in his second motion to suspend the Acts of 1844 and 1845—that is to say, to su•pend the laws by which the issues of bank notes throughout the United Kingdom were now regulated. Whether that suspension was to be per manent or temporary, the Right Honourable Gen tleman had left them in some little doubt. It did not seem to him that the slightest case had been made out for a temporary suspension of those laws. The Right Honourable Gentleman stated, and very truly, that tho alarm which existed in October last was Caused by y the low state of the reserve fund in the Bank. Ile concurred with a great deal that fell from the Right Honourable Gentleman, that in the autumn the alarm which existed originated not in the conduct of the Bank, or through the operation of the Act of 1844, but in causes which were altogether unconnected with them. He believed there could be little doubt that the alarm was caused by the want of accommodation in the Bank, by which they were usually enabled to discount commercial bills. In the course of the autumn a number of bill-brokers the stopped or suspended payment, and consequence was a demand for accommodation from the Bank of England to an extent that was quite unexampled. The discounts applied for at the Bank last year were double the amount of what was asked i n the Oc tober preceding.—(Hear, hear.) They discounted no less than from 6,000,000/. to 7,000,000/. from the increased demand for accommodation on the part of the public. in so doing they reduced the amount of their reserve to the point that was stated by the Right Ilon. Gentleman, and there arose an apprehension that the 1 Bank could afford that accommodation no longe r and that was the cause of the panic. No doubt his opinion was that this was originally owing to the low rate of interest that had previously existed, arid he was equally clear that the real effect of his letter in October was to place the Bank in the same position as if it had more money in reserve. Parties were restored to the belief that they could get accommodation with the Bank if they wanted it, which immediately allayed the panic, the whole amount subsequently taken out, as the Right. lion. Gentleman had stated, being under 4 00,000 e, , (Hear, hear.) 'What was the state with the Bank re serve at the present moment ? According to the state ment in the Gazette of last Friday, there were then of notes and coin in she Bank a sum of 8,185,0001.; and ho had seen, just before ho came down to the House, th e return which the Bank had sent to the Treasury, an d which would appear in to-morrow'a G azette, and he found the state of the reserved fend to he, of notes and coin, the sum of 9.686,000/. Mr. PATTISON—And what is it now? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER be• lieved it was increasing, but he thought it better to refer to statements which were or would be accessible to all the Members. There could not, therefore, now be the slightest apprehension that the Bank was not in a poss. tiea to afford assistance. lie might also state that, though slowly, the trade and commerce of the country were now gradually reviving; and there was no likeli hood of any public demand which the reserve fund would not be able to meet. If the Right Honourable Gentleman's motion had been brought on in December last, when notice of it was first given, and when Parlia ment was about to separate, perhaps there might have been some plausibility for it, though even then he should have opposed it. Not the slightest case had been made out for a temporary suspension of the Act of 1844; for the dan ger, against which they were asked to provide, was one of the most problematical kind. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had intimated something _more than a temporary suspension of that Act; he proposed to sus pend it until Parliament should otherwise provide; and therefore he might :as well have asked the House for a repeal of that measure.—("Hear, hear,") from Mr. Retries.) Then he liked things to be called by their right names—(Elear, hear)—and ho thought it would have been far better if the Right Hon. Gentleman bad directly proposed what he intended to effect under the guise of a temporary suspension.—(Hear, hear.) But he could not conceive anything that would so com pletely stultify the proceedings of that House as to en tertain this motion now, having before Christmas unani mously appointed a Committee to inquire into the whole subject.—(Hear, hear.) That would be to judge first and hear the case afterw ar d s . The Honourable Gen tleman himself might be satisfied with a suspension of the Act of 1844; but another Honourable Gentle man near him thought that, unless they altered the Act of 1519, they would do no substantial good. The Honourable Member for Birmingham thought that the Act of 1844 was only a necessary consequence of the Act of 1819; and many others were of the same opinion. Then in that conflict of opinon, upon what ground could the House proceed? Therefore the Com mittee had been appointed; gentlemen of various shades of opinion were members of it, and he hoped,that much valuable information would be obtained. Of course the Right Hon. Gentleman must follow up his motion by another to rescind that Committee, because it would be perfectly idle for that Committee to continne its labours throughout the session, if the House should now, at once (whatever might be the result of those labours), take upon itself to decide the whole matter. On a former occasion the Right Hon. Gentleman had thought it quite essential that they should know the whole state of the Bank of England. Now, the Governor and Deputy-Governor were to be examined before that Commtttee, and he looked to their examination with very great interest, as likely to afford the fullest in ' formation on that subject. It seemed to him, therefore. a mo,t premature proceeding—to use no stronger term —to call upon the House to decide before it had re. ceived the information stated to be so necessary.— (Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that he was anxious to avoid a general discussion on the cur rency; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) quite agreed in that wish; still, if they got into the merits of the Act of 1844, ho did not see how they were to avoid the general discussion, and if they could not avoid it, they were embarked on an ocean of which the shore or any haven was very distant. They had now arrived at a period of the session when the public business must be proceeded with. To-morrow his Noble Friend would make his financial statement; the time would soon come when the estimates must be voted, and he did not sup pose that the estimates of the present year would be passed in so peaceable and quiet a way as they had been in former years. He hoped, therefore, the House would not encourage any lengthened debate on the subject; no practical advantage could come of it, and he, at all events, would not set the bad example of embarking on that endless sea of discussion. But there were one or two points to which he wished to advert merely to prevent misapprehension. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that the promoters of the Bill of 1844 had thrown blame upon the Bank for reducing their discounts to 2i per cent.; but ho did not know who those promoters were. He knew, on the other hand, that several opponents of the Bill had laid down the doctrine that the Bank of England ought always to discount at one uniform rate. —(Hear, hear.) And if, therefore, blame was to be cast upon any one, he hoped the Right Hen. Gentleman would place it on the right shoulders.—(Hear, hear.) Again, the Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the Bill entailed upon the banks the necessity in England, Scot land, and 'retard, of holding bullion to the amount of about 3,000,0001.; but what was the fact? In England it did not entail on the country bankers the necessity of holding one single sovereign, though it gave them an issue of 8,000,0001. In Ireland also, it had not entailed the necessity of holding one sovereign more than before, and, in point of fact, last autumn, when it was said that this measure was so mischievous in its effects—that au tumn, the experience of which was pointed to as fatal to the measures of 1844 and 184:5, the circula tion was 1,000,0001. below the authorised circulation. In Scotland the case was rather different; for there the circulation was higher than the authorised circulation by 470,000/. ; so that they were bound to hold gold to the amount of about 500,000/.; and taking all the three countries together, under 500,0001. in gold was all that the Act had required. The Eight Hon. Gentleman had also remarked upon a dis crepancy between his statement on a former occasion and that of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Baring), and had said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had stated that there was no great diminution of circulation, whereas his Right Hon. Friend had stated that there was a great diminu tion. But the statement of his Right Hon. Friend ap plied to the interval between August, 1846, and April, 1847; and his statement applied to the period between August and October, 1847. It had been said that the great distress last autumn was caused by the diminution of the notes with the public, which, since the Act of 1844, was a touch more correct expression than circula tion; and he had answered that that could not be so, because from August to October there had been no great diminution. His Right Hon. Friend, on the other hand, had said that, according to the pkinciple of the Act of 1844, there ought to have been no considerable diminution between August, 1846, and April, 1847; but that there was that diminution. He merely alluded to these points to prevent misapprehension; he - did not wish to set the bad example of entering upon a general dis cussion of the currency; he hoped the House would not do so, and would not now prejudge a question which was undergoing full investigation. Alderman THOMPSON said that he would not en courage a general currency debate, but would confine his observations to the question under consideration. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had rested his opposition to the motion on three grounds; first, that the present position of the Bank, compared with its position in October last, was so much improved, that no danger was now to be apprehended ; the second was, that Parliament was sitting ; and the third, that a Committee had been appointed.—(Hear, hear.) As to the first, ho had the satisfaction of agree ing with the statement of the Chancellor of the Exche quer as to the improved condition of the Bank ; but ho must remind the House what was the state of the Bank this time last year.—(hear, hear.) In January, 1847, the Bank had of bullion 15,000,0001.; and in the reserved banking account 8,000,0001.; in April the bullion was reduced to 5,000,0001., and the reserved account to 6,000,0001.—(llear, hear.) It might be said that the price of corn influenced that diminution ; but he would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he saw perfect secu: ity in the present s'Aite of Italy and France, and whether they might not be involved in such difficul ties as would produce again a great drain of bullion (Hear, hear.) The present position of things wag, there fore, not such as could be safely relied upon.—(Hear.) As to Parliament sitting, ho must beg them to remember how the last (louse of Commons had treated the petition of the merchants of London, pointing out the dangerous position of affairs, arid the remedy which seemed to them hadit int they ye that least ( ap u p o l a ic r a , le h l e e a . r.) Ha A d a tt d ie w y .h u a tte s n e d e t o , d rity to the present House of Commons would pay more attention to their representations than the last ? As to the Com mittee, he would only say that that Committee met on the 4th of February. This was the 17th, and they had examined two witnesses.—(Hear, hear.) .Considering, then, what had been the suffering of the country, did they think that the country would be satisfied to wait for the report of that Committee as to the causes of the lute distress and the proper remedy for it ? He believed that if the country entertained any such hope' it would only end in disappointment.—(Hear, hear.) Those who witnessed the calamities of the past autumn must know that it was utterly impossible for this country to endure again such a financial pressure and its com mercial and manufacturing interest continue to exist. His Right Hon. Friend the Member for Stamford had stated that 180 houses had failed, with obligations amounting to 30,000,0001. ; and he was sure that his Right Hon. Friend did not overstate the case ; they knew those who had fallen, but they did not know all those who had been ruined by that pressure.—(Hear, hear.) The trade between the continent of India and this country was prostrate ; there was neither credit nor capital to convey our manufactures in India ; seven or eight millions of dishonoured bills returned to England ; and without the intervention of the East India Company the produce of the East Indies could not be sent hero ; but he placed full reliance upon that great Company. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the ,Exchequer had said that there was no doubt a great deal of pressure through the failure of bill-brokers ; but that was not all, fur he ventured to say that there was no establish ment (he did not except even bankers of the highest repute) whose credit did not suffer suspicion during that pressure. It was impossible to negotiate hills to any foreign country against shipments of goods ; for, on the continent of Europe they . believed that all London was baukrupt.—(Hear, hear.) What was the state of Newcastle ? Why, but for the inter ference of ,Mr. Grote, the manager of the branch bank there, the most disastrous consequences must have fol lowed, and Mr. Grote did himself immortal honour by the course which he had pursued ; he (Alderman Thompson) maintained even but doubtedfor theif thetim timely assistance peace de r a l could ren h by that gentleman. The same state of things exi sted in the west of England. What was the cause of it all? He was glad to hear now, from the Chancello r of the Exchequer, because on a former occasion lie had ex pressed a different opinion, that he believed th e p anics of rendered been 1847 was not to be attributed either to the management to o f wthheatßwanaks it toaf it':rnmbeThen r the Chancellor of the Exchequer assur ed a dep utati on which waited upon him, that there we re p lent y of b an k attributable or ? to thei the B io Bill notes to be had, and that all the difficult). arose from (2l 23d d f o l f B s t4e. September speculation and miscalculation ; bu t he thou g h t i t might now bo fairly asked, whether he was n et the miscaleu lator— (Hear, hear) —and whether , if he had been aware of the mischief that was to take place before the 23i of October, he would not sooner have written that letter to the Bank, the necessity of which ho fully admitted? Now money was abundant ; it might be had on go o d secur i ty upon easy terms ; and yet now there were two millions less of Bank of England notes with the public than there were on the 25th of October, when every one was complaining of being ruined, on account of the difficulty ` of getting bank-note:. Between the 26th of SeTtembeF and the 30th of October there was an increase of notes to the amount of 2.754,0001., and of gold co i n i ssue d t o I the public of 2,202,000/ a making together 4,956,000/. ; and yet money was not to be had under 17 or 18 per cent. It was that monstrous discount which brought down so many houses. But this was not all ; for, as the value of money increased, the price of prod uce f e ll . —Meal-, hear.) With regard to speculation in the commercial world, if they looked to their imports, with, the exception of sugar, there was not a single article in excess ; and what were the particular circumstances of the case ?—(Hear.) They had just made great altera tions in the duty—(Hear, hear)—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the vastly increased impor tatiou and consumption would help to supply the defi ciency in the revenue. Was not there, then, great inducement held out to merchants to import sugar largely ? As to corn, at the beginning of the year the Government were importing it themselves; and, in con • sequence of the high price, questions were being raked in that House whether the Government had considered the expediency of paying a bounty on its importation? Further, a day of humiliation was appointed on account of the distress with which the country was afflicted; and what was the consequence? All these things made the British merchants ransack the world for corn—(Hear) —and, instead of being abused as they had been, they were entitled to the gratitude of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The average price of wheat in London was in May, 1547, 105 s. per quarter; and in August 51s. Such changes ,baffled all calculation; but ho contended that no man ought to be called a speculator who imported goods for the market, taking his chance of the prices— , that was legitimate enterprise, which British merchants had always followed; but he was a speculator who bought up arti c l es o f necess i t y an d genera l consump tion, and stored them for the purpose of keeping them out of the market, diminishing the supply, and raising the prices. The promot ers o f th e Bill o f 1844 h a d sa id that if it did not prevent, it would mitigate panic. He would take no blame to himself on account of that Bill because he had opp ose d , i t f rom the first, and had yen ' tured to offer his opini on th at i t would produce very mischievous effects. They h a d b een told that as the bullion came in the Bank would issue notes, and as it went out the Bank would contract it s i ssue of notes; but that had been found wholly impracti ca bl e . When the foreign exchanges were favourable it was exceedingly easy to manage the Bank of England, but, in his opinion, when the exchanges were adverse, and discredit prevailing, it was utterly impossible that the Act of 1844 could prove available for the purposes it was intended to sere. told b 1 the promoters of that Bill that the way to prevent an inconvenient demand for bank notes was to raise the rate of interest ; but the fact was that the higher the rate of interest the greater was the demand for bank-notes, because the greater the discredit the more anxious were solvent commercial men to pro vide themselves with bank-notes to an extent exceeding their actual wants. He had already alluded to the feel- ing which existed abroad as to the state of English credit, and as showing the opinion which prevailed in tke United States as to the commercial and financial position of England, he would read an extract from tke New York Herald of the 10th of November. The extract as read by the Hon. Gentleman, was to the effect that the monetary crisis, and the frequent financial . changes which had t a ken pl ace i n E ng l an d, h a d grea tl y diminished her commercial influence, whilst the influence of the United States had been proportionably augmented. The writer went on to describe England's difficulties from the large amount of her national debt, the state of Ireland, and so forth, whil s t h e d ep i cte d t h e g l ow i ng prosperity of the United States, and the rapid advance it was making as a manufacturing country. As showing the state of public credit during the crisis, the Hon. Gentleman referred to the reduction which took place in the price of Consols, and the large discount which had to be submitted to to secure the sale of Exchequer-bills. Was it not essential, he asked, that measures should be adopted to prevent a recurrence of so disastrous a state of matters ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had called upon those Gentlemen who disapproved of the Act of 1844 to tell him what they actually wanted, and not to attempt to do indirectly what they hesitated to do by direct means. For himself, ho did not say that he wished to repeal the entire Bill. He was anxious, how ever, to see that part struck out which limited the issue of the Bank to the extent which it did, and also the limitation placed upon the issues of notes upon the se curity. There never was a greater mistake than this latter limitation.—(Hear, hear.) Ile was positive that great advantage would have arisen had the Bank been allowed to issue notes upon the security of silver to the full value of that silver. lie was anxious to maintain the convertibility of the bank-note. He was opposed to all doctrines about a domestic currency. In his opinion a domestic currency meant nothing more nor less than a depreciated currency.—(Hear, hear.) Were such a policy adopted, England would soon be in the position of Russia, where,there was a silver and a paper rouble. In England we would have one banknote payable in a fixed amount of gold, and another not© payable in nothing at all. He would allow the Bank of England to issue notes to the full value of silver, because silver was the standard in Europe. When the exchanges were un favourable silver left the country, and when silver was exhausted, gold followed, and, according to this view, silver might be regarded as being available to the pay ment of gold. With regard to the country banks, he did not think that all the threatening% of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would prevent the evasion of the Act which restricted the use of silver, should a deficiency in the ordinary currency require it. Ile would not tres pass longer upon the attention of the House, but would implore Hon. Members to adopt the motion of his R ig,ht lion. Friend, and not allow the character and credit of the commercial and easnulacturing interests of the country to be sullied—interest: which he had n 1 ways looked upon as essential to the prosperity and stability of the country. —(liner, hear.) Mr. W. BROWN, who was very indistincily heard, having adverted to the causes of the late commercial diffi culties, observed that the Bill of 1844 was a dead letter until the panic came, and then, so far from doing what its promoters had promised—prevent fluctuation of prices and secure confidence—it had aggravated the evil. There had been greater oscillation in the price of money under this Bill during the late crisis than in any former period of financial difficulty during the last 25 years. In 1825 the rate of discount was--the lowest the highest 41 ; end in 1832 the lowest was 24, the highest 4 ; in 1837 the lowest was 3f, the highest 5i ; in 1839 the lowest was 31, the highest 6i, being a diffe rence of 21- ; and in 1847 the lowest rate was 2i, and the highest nominally was 6 ; but with commission it was in fact from 15 to 20 per cent„ and even at that rate in numerous instances solvent houses could not obtain advances. The Bill had also occasioned hoarding. In Liverpool alone he believed he could show that a million and a half had been hoarded to meet con tingencies, and to enable merchants to meet their engagements, and to take up such bills as might . come back dishonoured, especially such as might be in the hands of the Bank of England when the protesting of any bill was attended with some discredit upon the h ausos whose names it bore. He was an advocate for freedom in banking, perfect security being tak en for converti bility. The question was not n ow, however, whether they were to maintain or abolish the monopoly of the Bank of England; but be contended that they should make it efficient for the public good. So far as the Act of 1845 carried out the principle of convertibility em bodied in the Act of 1819, and required payments to ' be made in metallic currency, based on a fixed price for gold, he concurred in it. He was aware that many argued that as the national debt was contracted in a paper currency it was unjust to require its repayment in gold; but when the contracts for the loans were entered into it was stipulated by Act of Parliament that six months after the restoration of peace payments in specie should be resumed; and had it been supposed that payment would be made in a depreciated currency, Government would never have obtained the loans on the terms they did--perhaps not at all—and had that been the case this country would now probably be a French colony. He saw no great advan tage that could result from a mixed standard of silver and gold. Silver would always buy gold, and gold was much the more easy and portable medium for commer cial transactions than silver. He thought there was extreme danger in allowing the growing commerce of this country to rest on an issue of 14,000,000!. based on securities. He believed the Bank of England had done what it could to preserve the public credit , and whileit was necessary that a discretionary pow er should rest somewhere, he did not think it could be in better hands than that of the Bank. To show with what attention the Bank of England was regarded, ho cited the case of a merchant in America, who, on being remonstrated with for ovortrading by his English correspondents, said that he was governed in all his operations by the con duct of the Bank of England. Now, if the Bank was thus regarded in foreign parts, it was most necessary that the Government of this country should have the power of putting it on the most stable foundation. But ho know how uninteresting the subject was to the House generally, and ho would only further. lion. express his reg in ret he could not go with the Right Baronet his measure. It would be desirable, he thought, not to amend, but at once to repeal it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUDSON regretted that this subject had not been brought forward at an earlier period. Nothing was more calculated to disappoint the country than the cours e pursued by the Government in referring thi s important question to a Committee. They had been asked if they were prepared to repeal the bill of 1819. That, however, was nut the question at issue. They were told by another speaker that r a il ways cause d t h e di s tressed state of things. But th e f act was, t h at t h e ra ilway calls i n January, 1848, were larger than in January, 1847, and yet mon e y was now on l y at 3 per cent. If railways, then, had anything to do with it, why was not money as much in demand now as it was last year ?—(Hear, he a r.) Th ey were to ld t h ey were consuming the capital of the country; but if they looked at the coffers of the Bank of England now, they found them full even to repletion. The truth was, the importation of corn was entirely the cause of the crisis. —(Hear, hear.) That importation had now ceased, and, therefore, our stock of money remained undrained. No doubt the country had been in a desperate state last October. In Newcastle, for example, if some thing had not been done to prop up the kcal banks, it would have been necessary to introduce mili tary into the town. What they had principally to coin plain of was, that solvency at that time was not pro tected. If the reason of their not affording such pro tection was the operation of this Act, then, he said, repeal, it.—(Cheers.) Who defended the Bill ? What commercial man in that House would get up and argue in its favour ? Common consent condemned it. No member of the Government said that it was necessary. —Ulcer, hear.) He hoped when the Government next wanted money, the Bank would only let them have so much as they could afford in justice to other customers. It was notorious that the Bank let the Chancellor ot the Exchequer sweep away in one day a great part of their reserve, which obliged them to lim i t the amount of their discounts afterwards. This was a very blameable mea sure. I3ut he thought this was about the only act of the Bank to be complained of. The Chancellor of the Ex - chequer, on the other hand, had decidedly made very great mistakes, and it was now quite time that he made up his mind as to what he meant to do, and as to the principles on which he would act in future. For his own part, he (Mr. Hudson) thought the Bank ought to have almost unlimited power of issue, always, of course, pre serving the convertibility of the note. Mr. MACGREGOR, representing a large and most important constituency, felt it to be his duty not to give a silent vote. lie was compelled to consider that the Bank Charter Act of 1844 was not an Act adapted to the wants of a great commercial country. He believed it was as impossible for Parliament to regulate the price of money as to regulate the expansion or contraction of the mercury in the barometer. He knew no parts of the world for which the Act was calculated, except a village in Holland, where the population had not in creased for the last 600 years, and where no young couples married until their fathers and mothers died.— (Laughter.) It was all very well to attribute the panic to over-speculation. But was it possible to carry on the commerce of the country without speculation? He had heard it said that the great houses which failed during the panic were unsound. When he consi,lcred the ra mifications, the engagements, the en t erpr i se of those houses, he lamented to hear such observations made. In his opinion, it was most necessary that Parliament should deliberately, but speedily, settle the subject. He believed the Act of 1844 was one in which the country had no confidence. For some time to come it might be of very little consequence whether the operation of that Act was limited or net; but, at some future time, the measure would be assuredly of the greatest national im portance. So much with regard to England. With respect to Scotland, he thought the operation of the Act f 1844 was universally complained of iu that count r y. L If it had not been for the Scotch banking system, the prosperity of the British Isles would never Lave risen to its present height. flu condemned the alteration in Coto. Mr. MASTERMAN trusted that the House would adopt his Right lion. Friend's motion, He had, in 1844. strongly insisted upon the Government retaining a discretionary power, and experience had since demon strated the necessity of such a provision. Mr. HUME considered it essential that some distinct inquiry should bo made as to the reason why these monetary panics were constantly recurring in this coun try, in a manner quite unknown elsewhere. He had objected to the Government Committee, because he fore saw that Its appointment would be made the excuse for such an answer as that of the Right I-lon. Baronet to such a proposition as that. now before the House.— (Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet had talked of a foolish judge, who first decided and then inquired. It appeared to him that the Government, in the matter of the Bank Act suspension letter, bad been precisely this foolish judge, fur it was admitted that it had acted with out any previous inquiry. He had said on a former occasion that 150,000,000/. had been lost by the recent operation of the Bauk Act; but, in point of fact, the actual loss sustained was quite incalculable.— (Hear.) The conduct of the Government in seeking to mule a discussion of its measures in relation to the Act of 1844, by referring the matter to a Select Committe, was most reprehensible.—(Hear, hear.) The feeling of the Ilouse on the subject, however, seemed pretty clear. Every gentleman who had spoken that night on the subject, with the sole exception of the Right Hon. Baronet, had declared that the measure of 1844 had wholly failed in its professed objects.—(Hear, hear.) There seemed to be, in the House as well as out of it, a decided convic tion that the Act ought to be repealed. It was out of the question to suppose that the country would submit to continue exposed to such jeopardy as that to which the Act of '44 subjected it.—(hear.) The result of that measure was only another proof of the fact, that what ever branch of business in this country was protected, fostered and hedged round by monopoly, was always involved in disasters. The East and West India inte rests, the shipping interest, the silk trade, were all proofs of the same proposition. He attributed the whole of our late distresses—and we had nut yet seen the worst, he feared—to the circumstance of the currency having been placed on a false basis of protection and mo nopoly. No paltry attempts merely to palliate the evil would avail. The mischief must wholly be eradicated.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") There was one feature in the Act of 1844, of which he approved, that which established a fixed standard ; but all attempts to restrict the circulation of the country, to shackle the means by which commercial transactions were carried on, must be utter failures.—(hear, hear.) He wished the Right lion. Gentleman opposite had come forward at once with a motion to repeal the Act; but if the mo tion he proposed were adopted, it would lead to repeal. —(Hear, hear.) The letter of the Government to tho Bank directors manifested very clearly the opinion of the Government that the measure could not stand.— (Hear, hear.) It was on the face of the thing absurd, that with the increasing commerce of this country there should be laws to limit the means by which commerce was conducted.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Act relating to Scotland, he had never heard of any man connected with Scotland who did not denounce it as most mis chievous. What had been the practical effect of the measure upon the immediate circulation in that country ? In 18.42 3 the average of gold in the Scottish banks was 428,6431. ; in 1846-7 that average was 1,119,000/., being an increase of nearly 800,0'.)01 ; and representing the average amount to which the banks found themselves compelled by the Act to refuse to trade the accommodatiou essential to its conduct. What was the average of notes in circulation at the s-snse period-? In the former period, 2,700,000/. in the I itter, 3,325,0001. 11.2 dhl not blame the direc tors of the banks, who had a most diffialli, task to per form. Tl.e blame lay with those ho imposed these difficu!ti,-s upon then.. Colonel TtIO3IP6ON supported the trio•fon. The Act of 1844 was u measure for fending oil' all such demands for aid for traders as should pass beyond a certain rule NI Inch Government con.idered to mar: the limit of dis cretion. The question was, a hether this rule had been established as proving the preconceived discretion, or whether it was a rule which, as being indiscreet, should be set aside, lie had heard it said that the coact scion made by the Government in October . .vas a virtual con cession of the fallacy of the Act. lie did not adopt this proposition as a necessary consequence, for the Govern ment might have been induced by the cry for assistance. Mr. MUNTZ reminded the House that there had been panics before the one of last year, and that they could not be attributed to the Bank Act of 1844. In fact, when the occurrences of October, 1847, were ascribed to the operations of the Right lion. Baronet's (Sir R. Peel's) Banking Act, those who did so committed a gross blunder. The Government certaiuly had no right to meddle with banks, either public or private; and as long as that interference existed he feared he should see con tinual crashes in the money market. The whole of the cause, and the only cause, of the monetary panics was that the theory upon which the Chancellor of the Exche quer and the Right lion. Baronet opposite based their system was wrong. The theory to which he referred was that which supposed there was such a thing as a standard of value. There was no such standard; and the sooner that false and erroneous system was abolished the better. If the Bill of 1844 was repealed the evil would still remain in full force. As long as the standard of value system eas adhered to, the country would ex perience panics and be exposed to all the misery result ing from such a state of things. He felt perfectly satis fied he was right upon this sul.jec:; and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. 'Terries) must not flatter him self he would remove the causes of distress by repealing the Act of 1844. It was nut that Act which had occa sioned the mischief. It was the Bill of 1819.—(A laugh.) He would, however, vote for the motion before the House, because he deprecated a liar Which was nullified the mo ment it came into operation, as the Bank Act of 1844 had been by the letter addressed by the Government to the Bank of England in last October. Mr. LABOLTUIIIiIIE said that the Right Hon. Gen tleman opposite had urged on the House not to allow itself to be drawn into a general argument upon the subject of his motion, as there was much danger, owing to the nature of the subject, that lion. Members would stray (ruin the immediat, question before the House. lie should endeavour to follow the Right lion. Gentleman's injunction in ()tiering his reasons to the House for not giving its assent to the proposal. One thing had been universally admitted by nearly all the speakers— namely, that if the motion were agreed to, the decision would reverse that which appointed a Committee to in quire into the monetary question —(No, no.) He heard it doubted that such would be the virtual effect of the motion being carried, but he must again affirm that the fact had been candidly admitted by all who had spoken on the motion that evening. By the appoint ment of the Committee the Government had en tered into an agreement with the monetary interests to consider maturely the laws which affected the whole question, and he was not prepared to say that atter the subject had been fully examined the law might not be relaxed. The only effect which the motion would have would be to unsettle the public mind as to the results of the Committee. Some Honourable Member had said that the law stood condemned by all, and by the Government in particular, by whom some of its provisions had been suspended. He must beg to deny the truth of that proposition. he denied that the sus pension of the Act for a temporary purpose was con demnatory of the measure. There must exist la power of relaxing the laws upon great emergencies, but that did nut tend to prove the law to be a bad one. He did not mean to say that it might not be found necessary tot modify the law, but ho must affirm that suspending late panic nut condemnation. He could not speak o f the o panic without feeling great commiseration fortoseh had suffered by it. But the Act of 1844 was n ethirr,had acces sory to that panic. —(hear, hear.) Something been said about over-speculation b the principal causes, and blame had a" n beencast mbeen o n upon m t u t; st up o o la o ser e v x e itm th in at . t h h e ose sheu who id feel l d t o t c; surprised, r i h s e e d ing into the circums tances attendin g the late crisis, those engaged in the importing trade were ac quitted of having entered into rash speculations, which had c itieed much of the Isle distress, After the length ened discussion of that evening he would not trespass further on the time of the House than to express his hope that they would not reverse their former decision, by which a Committee was appointed to extmine into the monetary state of the country. It might be said that Committees were all a farce, but he reminded the House that no great changes h a d ever been made is the monetary laws althout the previous inquiry and re port of a Committee.---(Cries of " Divide. ') Mr. HERRIES would only offer a few words in reply to the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He had Lever before witnessed a debate, the speakers on which, with some exceptiens. were ell on one side of the ques tion. Amongst all parties there was a growing feel ing that the Act of 1544 ought to bo repealed. The only objection of any weight against his motion was that there was a Committee sitting on the subject up stairs, and that the House ought not to prejudge the question. But there were many topics which were not to come wider the consideration of that Committee 3 . 10,4 4 • 42_1