The Sun. — London, England, 1852-02-10 00:00:00

SUN, and, anthorify—the mer e ! po we r—whi c h it b ad f or - f s ituated the power to exercise, a :nest coercive Matte merle excicised thrr ealtoth i - he esepire. &heti e :melt ' and lied lest him and them in a nositien in whit : el t iris unfortunate ie its bearites upon the interests of was a temptation so sarong to exelcise an kfiae._ the . peeele e The principle of finality once abandoned j grading to the nature 01 the elector arid to hie social eon was given up for ever. No one could new ror the future dition, and which would he liustful se the eonstitulien of take his stand upon our ihetiftr:lons as in eey respect ' the HOUSO and of the ceuntry.—(Hear, hear.) The rinil fixed and field in their eherecier. The Noble Lord con- who was forced to yor e w as ebeut as mach degreded as sidercel that their institutions shonld he censtenily in a the man who was bribed to vote: he 10,3". his self-respect, state of transition—constatitly expanding. Th ere wee and by being temp te d to d'i'e-rod the vete whi c h he had therefore, n o p r i nc i p l e o f stability l e ft i n their cons tit u tion. been compelled to g i ve t h ere was a growing depravity The details dila° present measure effectually destroyed I brought about of his moral feelings. He (The Bright) the character of stability, and next year they might said that the Noble Lord was bound to give the ballot —e all be changed, or, at all events. but a few years might (Meer)—if there was any considerable extension of elapse without an entire modification of them. What the franchise. He would not go into the question of the Would be the natural effect of all this change and un- ballot in any long argument. fits mind was so entirely certainty? Either they would soon render the state a made up on it, both as regarded moral and political complete democratic republic, or, what was more pro- grounds, that he hop e d w h en Vte mceion for the adop bole, th e y wou ld ren d er th a t ouse what it showed lion of the ballot was brought forward by the Hon. every indication of becoming—an assembly utterly un- Member (Mr. Berkeley), and when it was discussed wiih able to carry out those purposes for which it was insti- more attention than it had hitherto received, they would tuted. At the close of every session the constant corn- he able to show that it was due to the employer of Plaint was that nothing had been done. That was in labour as well as to the employed that a clause enacting consequence of the great infusion of the popular element. the ballot should be added to the Bill.—(Bear, hear.) That evil would be aggravated by the change now pro- The next point on which he wished to observe was Posed. To our old Constitution he bad a strong attach- lowering the county franchise from 501. to 201. He tnent—for the able and successful administration of thought the Noble Lord would admit there was no argu the affairs of the country which had been effected under meat in favour of a 201 franchise which did not apply it, and for the practical liberty enjoyed under it—and he with equal force to a franchise of 101—(Hear, hear.) now rendered the Noble Lord responsible for what was The 10/. franchise had been carried in that House no likely before long to befal that ancient Constitution, less than twice by the Hon. Member (Mr. L. King), and shaken as it already was. It was possible that, in the that alone was a reason why they should look very course of years, the people of England might be at last closely into the present proposal. He asked Hon. Gen tired out—that liberty might exist no longer—that some tlemen opposite, was there any reason why they should other form of government might be substituted, and give a vote to a man occupying a 5/. house in a street in such a consummation be attained in England as had Manchester or Birmingham and refuse it to a man living been already attained in a neighbouring country, and by in the country in a house of 18/. or 191 a yeari—(Hear a somewhat similar process. He would not offer any hear.) A man, perhaps retired from business, might opposition to bringing in the Bill. have a most comfortable house in the country with a Mr. H. BERKELEY thought the measure of the rent under 201. a year, and yet he was to be debarred Noble Lord ought to be affirmed. He considered it a from the franchise. Now, be presumed there would great improvement, and that there was something more be a proposition made to substitute a lower franchise, in it than that infinitesimal dose of reform which had and he hoped the House would adopt it for consistency been promised in a well-known political organ. John and justice sake, if no argument could be shown Bull would find there something more than that; but against it. How the Noble Lord could excuse himself he wished the Noble Lord, in turning his attention to for proposing such a franchise, when last year he pro the extension of the franchise, had provided a measure of posed an 8l franchise for Irish counties, which the Protection to the voters at the poll. The country would House of Lords raised to 121., he (Mr. Bright) could not be much disappointed at that omission; but he (Mr. understand. No one could object to the Noble Lord's Berkeley) would endeavour, when the measure was proposal to admit to the franchise every one who paid ender discussion, to give the voter that protection 40s. annually in direct taxes; but he hoped it was not which was so necessary, and which the country so ur- proposed as any great measure. The direct taxes were gently demanded. no t so many that many would be admitted under them Mr. P. HOWARD differed from the Hon. Baronet in addition to those who were otherwise qualified; and opposite (Sir J. Walsh) as to the light in which the he believed it would have no perceptible effect in in proposed measure should be viewed. The country would creasing the number of voters. The Noble Lord had be pleased with it, for the announcement of the extension refused to disiranehise any boroughs—he did not speak of the franchise had been received with exultation. of Sudbury and St. Albans, but of the small boroughs Sir R. H. INGLIS sa id th a t thi s w as one of the most —but proposed to lessen what was called family in important questions which could be submitted for debate, fluenee in such constituencies by adding neighbouring let the four Gentlemen who had spoken since the Noble towns to them. It was impossible to deny that if the iford had introduced the question, and had all taken dif- franchise was lowered from 10/. to Si., and the neigh ferentgrounds, would appear from the silenceof the House homing small towns were added, the constituencies 10 have represented only their own opinions. The last oe- would be increased, and in some cases family ,Jion of the kind in which the Hon. Member for Radnor- influence might be destroyed. Therefore, if it ;T i re (Sir J. Walsh) had called to remembrance was was a question between allowing such a state "erneg in hi s m i n d . T ee occas i on o f 1852 was v e ry of things to remain and accepting this measure, Pifferent from that of 1832, when the subject was first he allowed the change would be some gain, but he could ero ught forw ar d. O n t h e l a tt er occasion every place not agree with the principle ors which it was grounded. Within the House and in the passage was crowded with The Noble Lord had spoke of maintaining the balance of eager listeners to the discussion. At the present time, parties. [Lord J. Russsil—No.] Well, the balance of ac the at the benches when the Noble Lord introduced power, perhaps the balance of interests; but if he ac e! subject, they were certainly tolerably well filled ; cepted the principle of representations at ail, he should _ci.as soon as he had sat down the House relapsed into not seek to have the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) at itr,Klifference, and the attention of Members was propor- one extreme, and him (Mr. Sieger), as it might be eon :;hullably diminished. But the Noble Lord had intro- sidered, perhaps, at the other, but that the proportion of wit . two or three questions not necessarily connected opinion in the House should assimilate to the proportion I reform, but of vital importance to the interests of of opinion in the country, and not that as when the fishco untry—.(Elear)—upon which he wished to say a question of free trade was settled long ago—(lronical s w Words. The Noble Lord had introduced in his cheers and laughter)—and when, he would nut say 9 " f g r es s eh two or three objects which should form tl*matter out of 10, but certainly 3 out of 4of the people of this ebsteparate legislation, and which he would have better country, had long disposed of the' question, Hon. Gen imouinthl from introducing ; but his (Sir R. Inglitt's) tlemen opposite should muster vetes that nearly ? t ent objection was with respect to the great reli- equalled the votes on that side of the House.—(Hear, ?.._ u s question, which was unconnected with Peale,- and laughter.) Why had he mentioned this but to "l e s e r titar Y reform, and not merely to the removal of prove that f r e e trade had no adequate representation in el ude particular words which had hitherto ex- the House, and that the opposite opinions had a far o d, and had been intentionally devised to lager representation than they would have been entitled ' ude—or, at all events, the practice had the to had the representation been ftsirly apportioned over 14 h1 lehest sanction which could be binding upon the country? He supposed the N o bl e L or d wou ld th it a ll ,: a body of our fellow-subjects, as some called maintain what he called the balance of interests , but he a — ts ; hut he regar d e d t h em as strangers who held would fi n d it was no t the balance of interests, ercreed distinct, alien, hostile, and inconsistent with our but the dead lock, under which his Government treeded, and whom the Noble Lord now proposed to in- would be unable to march.--(Hear, hear.) If Hon. d e nee by that very s id e - w ind which he had himself Gentlemen opposit e w ere to come into power to - morrow state on a f ormer occas ion. The Noble Lord they would be pr ec i se ly in the same difficulty; and so el e 4 when he i n t ro d uce d hi s g r e at measure of 1831, long as opinion wa s i n grea ter progression out of doors suet it was not a measure of revolution. They, on the than in the House of Coremens, tio long Government ether side, contended that it was in all its subtantial would be in the position in which it then was—namely, , P :_ r s, a measure directly revolutionary. A very few that they would wish to do that which the House of Noble had:hardly elapsed when a Noble Colleague of the Commons would not allow them to do, and which the rte Lord's declared in so many words the measure of people insisted on having done.—(hear, beer.) If they refor m llottod was a measure of revolution, stating it as such, were to go out, and Hon. Gentlemen opposite were to whi , isapprove of it, but to jestify it by its result, come in, they would find themselves in the very same 13._. e n he declared to have been unmixed prosperity. position, and they would soon be sent to the place from ..,uthe Noble Lord had said that the country was not whence they came.—(A laugh.) He had expected the l ie u e e t, e tried by a revolution every year; and had the Noble Lord was going to matte some i T e n r ll i t Lord given the country any hope that another ex- specs to the smaller boroughs having each two represen t would not be made in progress with re ,1872 or within a shorter tatives, and he hoped the question was not yet settled period2l The unprescriptible character of the institutions adversely to his (Mr. Bright's) views. He would just of thei r they hadtillWrittela constitution had been destroyed, and quote the cases of Harwich and Thetford. The Noble ome a ei t . e " to deal with a charter eareyk —a written Lord might find country towns or villages to give them and thr"' t 0 be found in a few books on the table, larger constituencies, but was it consistent with the would re "no security that the Noble Lord himself opinions he had expressed that night and during his ev il hot be the first to introduce a change in its pro- whole political lite-to enlarge Harwich and Thetford, wa l ° s• As to universal suffrage, he did not think it and to allow them two members, while each of the power'o much to be dreaded by the possessors of metropolitan boroughs and the constituency of 25,000 e and property as had been hitherto supposed. that he represented had hut each two Members also? The largest experiment which had been made with was it possible an arrangement like that could be per- L r espect t o it had occurred recently in a neighbouring tnanent? No, of course not; and next session the eantry, and they had seen that it was no ecurity to question to transfer one of the Members from some of liberty or property, and that it was the most efficient in- these boroughs would be moved with a force of argue etrument for conferring the largest amount of power meet which he defied any Minister to meet with any- Which modern Europe had seen concentrated in the thing like satisfaction to his own mind and reason, and tt h ands o of one man. There was no security that those in thresame way he would be met with the question of 7e:upported his (Sir R. Inglis's) Noble Friend on this the 20'. tranchise and the vote by ballot. If he believed Zit lion would not bring forward other measures o f a w ith th e Hon. Baronet there was hazard in introducing testecr ger nature. He (Sir R. Inglis) therefore pro- much more of the democratical element into the House; Which against this constant tinkering of the Constitution, and if with such views he was intrusted by the Queen to It t eleserved far more respect than had been shown make a proposition, he would take away such a glaring p ' 0 0 i ! . his Noble Friend.—(Hear ) There was another detect as this from those who would hereafter advocate a shamed point to which he (Sir R. Inglis) was almost change. The Noble Lord had not told them what he as that to refer, after adverting to such a minor subject intended to do with these small boroughs, and he (Mr. ' il Ztt he had just alluded to — namelys the religious Bright) submitted it was his bounden duty to th es _ u nnt by which the Noble Lord proposed to admit withdraw from all these boroughs, which re „u_7 who differed in religion from the bulk of the na- quired an addition to make up the constituency, one Unit and who were almost alien in other respects, to a Member, and to give that Member in each case to large e`je4ll,lll Parliament. This he (Sir H. Inglis) most de- constituencies, or to large towns not now represented. e t ,7 14 3' objected to, and should oppose by every means The Noble Lord bad touched on the question of oaths, ;:t e. t . l s power. After such a subject as that—One so im- at which the Hon. Berunet on the other side hid taken ; I ' , urthut as well as so sacred—he was almost ashamed to great offence. He (Mr. Bright) spoke disinterestedly on Fend to so comparatively low a subject as the pro- that subject, because he was not obliged to take an oath . 1 , qualification proposed to be abolished by his hinaselt, the House admitting, in the cas e o f those cir ,,u° e Friend. But this point was one o f those de- cumstanced like him , a simple declaration; but he was Foneeptic elements which his Noble Friend was so bound t o sa y that he believed such a declaration would u of encoura g ing in this Bill. Th e resu lt o f i ts b e qu it e as binding on the consciencelidscience of any Hon. Mem -11-4Ption would be to throw open the House to any ber as an oath; and ho thought that Parliament should te_tsturer—of whom there were too many always show the world that the gentlemen who met in that (84;3. --by separating power from property. To this he Uouce regarded their word as tantamount for all pun s,t,r, Inglis) would not willingly agree. With respect poses of perpetual obligation as much as most statesmen eet 'ne minor points of the proposed measure he should did an oath. The French revolution of 1848 bad, upon ' tst. t't then dwell u p on th e m , as there would be so many a retrospect of the past sixty years, abolished all oaths Yolsortunities of discussing them in their details; he except that taken by one person; and they now found oe'oeuld not, therefore, longer occupy the House on that to their cost that his was the only obligation that had n se ah ion• Bat he was unw illi n g, w h e n his Noble Friend been broken and disregarded. With regaid to the ge tng introduced a measure, and so extensive in its nature, neral question he (Mr. Bright) regretted that the Noble 1 1t it s h oul d be permitted to pass even t h roug h its first Lord h a d l e ft so many qu a st i ons unsett l e d ; but he ad stage witho u t one vo i ce, at l east, b e i ng ra i se d against m i lte d t h at t h e measure proposed an extens i on o f poli the r eligious portion of th e p ro po s iti o n, which he would tical rights, and h e b e li eve d t h at t h e coun try would be aver was most offensive to the great bulk of the people grateful to the Noble Lord for bringing forward, with ;or England, and which therefore he trusted Parliament out compulsion, a proposition which, it carried, would l ould not stiffer to s tan d on t h e Bill o f hi s N o bl e F r i e nd. leave the representation of the c o untry in a far more sa !tt_reiit knew th ere were those, supporters of his Noble tistactory condition than it was at present.—(Cheers.) -Ltd, who w i s h ed to abolish all oaths whatsoever; but Mr. BAILLIE said the Noble Lord and his Govern -lest s some instance, ancient dared in which civili.sed or modern, couldbe a- m ference to a higher autireiety , existed without any re- pledge given to his supporters at the close of the las t could and elicit truth, he to sanction obligations sessione of Parliament. He (Mr. Baillie) was not, how would consent to the aboulietior ofe Bel and fornever ever, surprised at the speech of the Hon. Member for Which constituted this country a liat form one of words ' Manchester.: ln fact he should have been surprised if l'arliament the Christian Christian country, and those with whom reform was an article of political faith People.—(Hear.) assembly of a Christian did not experience some dieappointrnent at so imperfect t , Mr. BRIGHT said he had been e d d ea eouring a measure being substituted as a satisfactory solution of 'tile h . • portions of the Noble Loll he was s proposition, to weigh the question of reform, by so old and experienced a Re. and former as the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. bound in fairness to admit that-- while there one of those who held reform as an 14 ... ° , 4 ,, e of which he entirely disapproved, and . were Baillie) was not in , - etY far short of what the country expected, which fell article of his political faith, or who , believed fact, othe there wer e r) • but the necessity had been de fectionr Portions which would give some degre e of satis reform to be necessA , ent and Llio first Minis to those outside the House. It Was difficult r- cided by her Majesty'e Government . . of Minis- Sa y how h d • t Would do—not s p ea ki ng ,_ the 0 ter of the Crown had, in the last session Parliament, di e . Mlle goo 1.. in declared it desirable . direction of the Ron. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh), but i n to IDOrease the power of the demo 't eraey of this country. A Minister making such a de esPeet to those who desired the extension of the frau. Ohl cleration however, was to excite great ~,, 66 ; but as it would be all over the country to-nior- ~x _ e wath calculated as it --w t he thought it quite fair for those who di:fared con_ l' have beer and arouse great masses of the people, should atiderably from the Hon. Baronet's views, while they had setisfactionot Prepared with a measure more likely to give he o Pportunity, to make some remarks on the speeches not be said to bea n who, under those circutnstanees,could of thus discontented. Was the measure e who differed from then, which might go to the of the Noble LouredieslY eottntry also. The great and democratic portion of the great body of the Reformers ted to give satisfaction to the trctiosition, was the 51. franchise for boroughs, and he Badlie) maintained that of this country ? He (Mr. peed with the Noble Lord, that the classes to which he would point out Someit was not, and to that end the franchise Was to be given were perfectly competent would prevent it from insuring radical defects which "'C r he dtd not mean every man of them, for that was not core Refoi mars. Assaming,fotrhtehconfidench of all sin a4° even of the present franchise—but taking them as 1 the statement of the Noble Lord l e 4 :ake of argument, o f " 4 1° 10 , to discharge its duties, and in that portion I rent, end that it was desirable therefortesession was cor ona the kingdom in which those classes were the most i power of the democracy of the county to . increase the , ;fte l d nerous th ey might with perfect propriety little remarkable that the first and Le t y ie , t e it b !vas mesa ea __ nonfldenee be entrusted with it.—(Hear .) He now sure to secure that object was altogether Omhious ,_tiowit them performing the duties of voting in their pa- !hie Bill—olio ether ignored—namely, sbert i e tthd from Vi tt " w ith great and un d e ni a ble propriety. He saw duration of Parliaments.. It was generally astniitTencf that the Pen ?ever they elected in the p oor-law un ions ex- 1 the increase of the duration eonf Parliament had been the 'n'led the poor -rates properly and honestly, and that ' • blow ever inflicted democracy iu this coun en these 1 heaviest- e nern classes el e cted m unicipal corporatioea in ' try, i n asmuch as it made the Members tree, and remit ' /4, 11 - . 8 and cities those bodies showed no destructive pr o .. I tea the pros p e ct of being called to account by thei r Con . 44 I l t il tY, but were about as respectable and trustworthy I stituente to too remote a period - to influence their con . eitietl7 bodies that could be elected by any other class of duet. It was well known that Hon. Members held a dif for ells in the country—(Hear, h ear ) — a nd he tools it ferent course at the commencement of a Parliament from hEreanted that they had precisely the same interest in I that which they held towards its close; and if proof were eo as u es g v the good government of the country, and in the I , wanting, it was furnished by the Noble Lord himself. ethat.ation of order, as any one e lse, b e his property I The Noble Lord represented a large and liberal consti tueneeltt might. Therefore. though many might be re- tuency. For the first four years, however, of the present .0 Mr the boroughs who would not be the wisest ' Parliament, thouh the HOD. Member for Montrose an ho" In thee country—and there were many returned from ! neatly brought forward the question of Parliamentary count (Ala Hiles now who were known not to be Scions— i Reform, on every occasion he was firmly—udy, obsti- Th4g w h)—still they would just be as good as before. t nately—oppes e d by the Noble Lord and the members eo__.,easone serious defect in the Bill with regard to the of his Government. The Noble Lord entered into no tetia'at of the borough franchise which he could have , compromise with the Hon, Member on those occasiens; th ti e to see e use removed. It had been charged against but on the contrary, did not spare his sarcasms upon v ote _ se that many of its Members came there through ! him and the party who supported him. Such was the st reed upon the e thad never said 'position of the Noble that _ lecto.s; but he Ployed Lando woers were more inclined to force those em- of reform until the middl e of the last • 'I r rlia pie on their pro 'est their con- meat, that which the i session o a h "'me% than any otherotherwhen eloquence class of the community. In the Hon. Member for Montrose could not effect was accom- Isu ire, there wer e kingdom, in Yorkshire and Lan- plished by the near approach of th e period of dissolution; Pers ons each, a l r e fir ms employing from 500 to 5,000 , and at the close of the session accordin House w ould age Portion -who surprised of whom were men wasgly the to hear that the Noble Lord and his Ca s„,_ be electors under th e ;',inere were besides a Bill of the Noble Lord. binet had been unanimously converted to reform.— i tt en, but the wages gorteaaltl numb er of women and Ail- (Hear, and laugh:ea) The Noble Lord was, however, in , ° _iise, and the head of that there taken to somehod; 's , much mistaken if he believed the present measure would .-te' alUat se then, hOu se w ou ld have to vote. : give satisfaction, unl e ss it was eccompanied with a _ 4 e y, as a large era 1 of his sorry the' Noble Pto would of labour, that he ch-11 60 to shorten the duration of Parliaments. The next ' 418 hands or out of the h Lord had not taken out I question was ono of great importance —one audit of Iwhich the any one similarly ; Noble Lord did not eveu preten to ignore. It was the de- THE LONDON ) • question of small boroughs. The evil was edmit , ed by t Noble Lose in tenses, but 11)0 Nocl Lord del net • apple the adeileete remreiy. Tne existence ot small initiation bereuelis was admitted to bo a disgrace to the eystem of Pwliameetary representatiou. The Re : farm Act of 1332 pi•ofee ied to ex - Anguish the rotten borough v}Btt ID, but it failea to DC00213- , plish that olsj: en A het) wee drawn which F. great ' number of these small boroughs had been re - rained, and the country had by this means the scandal — for it was nothing else—of a great number of Members of Pardee:lent being nominated by Peers. There was ' the borough of Marlborough, the Member of which was nominated by the Marquis of Ailesbury ; the borough of Mahon, by Earl Fitz witliain ; the borough of Richmond, by the Earl of Zeeland; the borough of Ripon, by Earl do Grey ; the borough of Tavistock, by the Duke of Bedford—(No, no)—the borough of Calne, by the Mar cpis of Tavistock. There were many other boroughs nominated in the same way, but he would not go through with them. It was quite obvious that there could be no proper Reform "Bill unless it was one that dealt with this question. The Noble Lord had dealt with it in a very imperfect manner. By joining two or throe toge ther as proposed, you would throw power into the hands of a few persons, and some such practice as oc warred in Scotland would soon take place in those new boroughs, by the parties agreeing alternately to make the return. The only way of dealing with the question was by abolishing these boroughs altogether. q e r u e e sdteioenp deeply n n w t h e i r c e h s t t e h d e , w pe a o s p t l o e w o h f o m I r t e h l e a n p d o and S w rc a ho s °tl t ga o nre b da e wt transferred. In the Reform Bill of 1832 , Scot land and Ireland were unfairly treated. Scotland , with 3 w , i o t o h o 6 o , o o o oo p , o o p o u o l , at h io a n d , h i a o d s o r n e ly pr b es l e m nt e a m tiv b e e s rs ; , w an h d il i e re E l n en g d . laud, with not more than a three times larger popula tion, had five times the number of representatives. The people of Scotland were well able to appreciate the ad vantages they enjoyed under the British constitution, and they had not asked the House to make any change in the representation. They felt it was easier to pull up with evils they had than" to fly to others they knew not of." But when the Prime Minister, with the sanc tion of the Cro ran, brought in a new Reform Bill, and took the responsibility on himself, the Scotch would be wanting in duty to themselves did they not demand a more equitable distribution of the power of Government and tee representative system. He was satisfied the people of Scotland would be unanimous on this point. Scot land was united in feeling and interests; and few though they were comparatively in that House, they had often succeeded in arresting the hand of the Minister, and they would do the same on this occasion. The people of Ire land also would come forward with a demand for equal justice; and, if they did so, he should not despair of mak ing their united voices heard and respected on this ques tion. He would ask the English Members to look at the position in which they would be placed if a Prime Minister was always to have a little Reform Bill to launch before the public in order to create for their own purposes a popular ferment, The House ought to have a pretended Reform Bill which would enable Govern ment to get up an excitement year after year; they must gave final and full reform, not a progressive system of reform. If to maintain themselves in office Government chose to keep up oit system of agitation, on their heads must the consequences that would ensue be solely vi sited,—(Hear.) Mr. ROCHE congratulated the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down upon the liberal speech he had made in favour of reform.—( Hear, hear.) Nobody could doubt the march of intellect and the progress of opinion when we heard sentiments so liberal coming from that . part of the House which used to be called the " Tory camp"—(Hear, and a laugh)—and he confessed he greatly desired to see the mea sure of reform which was apparently to be brought in by lion. Members sitting on the Opposition benches. The people of England and Ireland would, he thought, be greatly satisfied with the success of this debate, as far as regarded the speech made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Baillie), whose views went far beyond those of the Noble Lord on the subject of reform, and the speech of his Hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, showing a qualified approval of the Bill. It was quite evident that a Reform Bill the country must have, because both sides of the House seemed to consider it necessary; and, notwith standing the shortcomings of the Government Bill, he was glad that, as he understood, it was the Noble Lord's inten tion to extend it, in all its integrity, to Ireland. He had understood the Noble Lord to say he intended to extend this Bill in its integrity to Ireland. Now he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that a great injury was done to Scotland by the present apportion ment ot the representation, but a greater injustice to Ireland. Nothing could be more monstrous or unjust than the prin ciple upon which the representation of Ireland was settled by the Reform Bill. If population alone were taken as the basis of representation, Ireland, instead of possessing only 105 representatives, would have 207. But if the represen tation were based upon population and property combined the number of the representatives for Ireland in that House would be 150. The Noble Lord proposed, wherever the number of electors for a borough in England or Scotland fell short of 500, to group other towns with them and to extend the constituency. Would the Noble Lord apply that principle to Ireland? If a borough in Ireland had less than 500 electors would he join that to other towns? (Several Hon. Members: "Yes, yes; he said he would.") There were 24 boroughs in Ireland with less than 500 electors, and, omitting Belfast, there was only one borough out of the remaining 23 which had a constitu ency exceeding 500. There were 16 or 17 boroughs where the constituencies numbered less than 200.—(Hear, hear.) In many other boroughs where the constituencies were re turned as over 200, the actual number of the constituency did not exceed 200. He was informed by his Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Anstey) that the constituency of Youghal, which was returned as 261, did not actually exceed 200. When the repeal agitation was rife, and a great desire existed in Ire land for a legislative separation between the two countries, the Irish Members were asked why they did not attend the House of Commons and state their grievances there? But when they did, they found themselves unjustly outnumbered. The present House of Commons was packed against them by the Reform Bill, and it was useless for them to attend at that time. The same evil still existed. He wished the Noble Lord would take into consideration the propriety of throwing some of the Irish boroughs into the counties. The representation might be taken from some of the boroughs and given to the counties, without altering the balance of conflicting interests in that country. He called upon the Noble Lord (J. Russell) to consider the justice due to Ire land in the matter of the representation, which had been so forcibly brought under his notice by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Ms. Baillie). Mr. NIEWDIGATE wished to be informed when the Noble Lord proposed to take the second reading, because in a Bill of such magnitude sufficient time ought to be given for the consideration of the details. He had not risen with the in tention of entering upon the general question, but he must express his regret that the Noble Lord seemed determined not to add the sanction of Christianity to his measure.— ( Hear, hear.) He regretted that he had added that alien element to his Bill, with the title ot which it had no osten sible connexion. He would express no opinion at present on the first principle of the Bill, which proposed to extend the franchise by lowering the qualification for counties and bo roughs ; but he had great doubts relative to the novel element proposed to be introduced of a floating constituency, con nected with no ties of property or residence, and qualified by the payment of a certain amount of direct taxes. But then they found a Jew Bill tacked on to the end of the Noble Lord's measure, for no purpose, as it seemed, but to conciliate the support of that small section of the community and to offend the House of Commons.—(Hear.) Mr. TRELAWNY thought it unfair in the lion. Member (Mr. Baillie) to call the borough which he (Mr. Trelawny) had the honour to represent (Tavistock) a nomination bo rough, and he trusted the Hon. Gentleman would retract that assertion.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Member, following the tactics of his leader (Mr. Disraeli), who reserved to him self the opportunity to outbid the *sent Government by a further extension of the suffrage, wished to catch the Irish Members, by pointing out the greater proportion of English as compared with Irish Members; and sought probably to defeat the Government by combining two warring ele ments. He (Mr. Trelawny) only wished to caution the Liberal party how they suffered others to introduce division into their camp. The experience of other countries was such as to induce the hope that the institutions of the country would not be perilled by the measure now pro posed by the Noble Lord. It might hereafter be extended, if it were thought desirable to go any further, and he trusted the Liberal party in the House would accept the Bill as it stood at present. He repeated that he trusted the Hon. Member for Inverness-shire would apologize to him and to the borough he reprssented for his presumptuous remark.— (A laugh.) He did not know what the Hon. Gentleman represented—whether his pocket or his brains; but, if the latter, he must have a rather narrow constituency. Sir JOSHUA WALMSLEY thanked the Hon. Member for Inverness-shire for making the proposal he had done with reference to the increase of Scotch and Irish Members. lie might contrast this proposal with some observations that had fallen from Gentlemen calling themselves Liberal Members on that side of the House—(Hear)—and he could not bat feel surprised that those Gentlemen should have ex pressed themselves in favour of a measure, which, in his opinion, deserved anything but that. He was confident it would not meet with approval out of doors.—(Hear, hear.) It was indeed a small measure, and would be regarded by the country as unworthy of the Noble Lord and his col leagues. The Noble Lord had referred to some fifty or sixty boroughs returning two representatives each, with a smaller constituency than 500. Was the Noble Lord aware that i t n h e e o r l e n e w - e t r a e x 6 t 2 o 7 t l h a e r g a e m t o o n w n n t s i o n f h l i ,300 7 0 ri d n e ti . y , which e e h s s e w d e tothe re to_ r s e u m pp s o in se so th n e nd in e h r a l le v i h ta a n t t w s s o s f those e u a t o n w r t e h n p e s r e w n s e e o n w u t l e d d ß b ; e e t a o s r n a m d t i s d fi ß i e d i d u h t ? o e And yet this would be the case, except such representation as they might find throu g h the county constituencies. He was persuaded that this Bill, or any other, which did not recognise the rights of the tax-paying and industrial classes—the wealth-producing classes—would not, and ought not, to give satisfaction to the country. Another most important point was wanting in this Bill—the ballot.— ( Hear, hear.) He had had some ex perience at various public meetings in this country in the last few years, and he had never attended any where the ballot had not been unanimously supported.—(Hear, hear.) The employers of labour, as well as the employed, concurred that any extension of the franchise without the ballot would acta b aonn e ln:di l ya i oi t hrnr t udi l ecns e ao J.wdnb colleaguesose inconsistencies t tt ; e r n ei than ef tf : r m t o h. c e k s e e r e y o . n — (Hear, . hear.) As this . was merely the introduction of the Bill, he would not enter into its details, but would reserve any remarks on its anomalies called a Refort y n Bill, and totally j u r n e w a o d r in th g y ofirthheeßill Noble w a L s Lord J. RUSSELL • gd :t t s i e i , o n u n s i e g , h t.totally otord- Member (Mr. Ne m wd on e Mr. HERRIES asked when unworthy of' being D v to the question of the Hon. ): 'e s . a l i'd he proposed to take the se inilgUoSnSELL—On Wednesday or Thursday. in the hands of Members? when the Bill would be printed and Lord J. MANNERS thought that a fortnight was not long enough for the consideration of a Bill affecting such vast in terests. The House were called upon t t ht! Nobl e L ord ought to sanction the whole t p o r give nci principle I e t h a e n m d adetailse o r f p e t r h i e o d than Bill, afortnight. and Lord J. RUSSELL — I do not attach great importance to that meek (the 27t se'nnight, h a insnd have no objecti on t o name Friday in t.) Mr. HUME—The sooner the better. Lord H. VANE could not agree with what had been said by the Hon. Member (Sir J. Walmsley) with regard to the shortcomings of the Bill. So far as his experience and in formation went—not derived, he admitted, from Lancashire or Yorkshire, but from other parts of the country—he be lieved that the measure would be considered extremely sa tisfactory. He did not speak of its details, but of its prin ciples. The Noble Lord might have transferred one repre sentative of the small boroughs to some - manufacturing town ; but the arrangement proposed involved as little in terference as possible with hostile influences. Mr. G. ANSTEY—It was not proposed dap Members fa- vonrable to a large extension of the suffrage should make their election b tween the Noble Lord's plan and their own. It was not a compromise that Was proposed to them, but an intalment that was offered. And the Noble Lord dis tinctly pointed to the time when it might be in the power of the MiLi,ter to propose and of the Parliament to agree to a mea:nre of further reform. The measure now brought for ' ; ward was not proposed as a final measure, but as the only measure that the circumstances (:f the country and of the hour warrante,l the Noble Lord in hoping would receive the approbation of Parliament. In agreeing to the present Bill, there was nothing, therefore, to preclude its supporters from giving their votes hereafter to a scheme for triennial Par liaments and household suffrage. The ballot was necessary to protect the voter against intimidation, whether exercised by customers over shopkeepers or by meddling Roman Ca tholic pries*s over members of their flock. The proposed conglomeration of small boroughs in Ireland was a wise measure. It was also properly proposed to undo the compro mise into which the House entered with the House of Lords last year, and by which the franchise for Irish boroughs was fixed at 8/. The Noble Lord's plan, however, was defective as regarded the counties of Ireland. At present those counties possessed no more than a fair number of voters, but when the small towns should be withdrawn from the counties and ag gregated to the boroughs, the constituencies in many counties would be reduced one-half, and thrown more than ever into the hands of proprietors, in whose families the representation was vested and transmitted as a heritage from father to son. Of that part of th e Bill which related not so much to P yforamppraosvteod.theongrtehaet w qu h e o s le ti , on th o e f B re i l l i l g w iou as s support of the f r i ends of Parliamentary libertye ntitl e dm h t e e o n tcao theryd i a r l e l re form, and he was clad to see that the =embers of the country party were disposed to remember the old conditions of that party, and to vie with the Noble Lori in the race of reform. Mr. TRELAWNY rose and begged to vithdraw an ex pression which he had inadvertently used with respect to the Hon. Member for Inverness...shire. Sir J. TYRELL observed, that the friends of reform seemed to find it very difficult to define the principle of the proposed Bill. Now, he ventured to suggest that if it were entitled " a Bill for the, contin uance of Ler M a j e sty's pre sent Ministers in office," it would not be a bad definition of its object at least.—(Hear, and laughter.) If one might judge by the declarations of those who called themselves the friends of reform, the measure was not likely to give general satisfaction. The Hon. Member for Bolton denounced it in toto, whilst the Hon. and Learned Msmber for Youghal was dissatisfied because it did not substitut e the ballot-box for the confession-box. As far as he could form an opinion of the measure from the Noble Lord's statement, it appeared As regarded Essex, in Bill Was a ver y h arm l ess to which b e measurerather ll ainr dw indeed. ee dhm waslk. milk Still, a n water situated, the m a t affair. B eh a s i u r . r e was not likely to give satisfaction to the country generally, he should feel himself at liberty to oppose it. The fact wae, as every one knew, the Noble Lord had brought forward a canvassing measure in order to keep himself in office, and then, doubting its suc cess, at the close of his speech he endeavoured to ingratiate himself with the Manchester school on th e subject of educa tion, by the way of throwing out one anchor to windward in the event of the Government being displaced. Colonel SIBTHORP claimed credit for having suggested the 501. clause, which the Marquis of Chandos subsequently adopted and carried.—(Hear, hear.) He had the honour of I a seat in the House when the Noble Lord brought forward the Reform Bill, which was announced to be a final measure. Now the Noble Lord proposed another Reform Bill, on the principle of " any port in a storm, and the stress he was driven to was evident from the very dirty port in which he I understand, prevails as period of his official exisand hi s had condescended to take refu g e Thefor isthTeehlberiLeferrdemaining colleagues had resorted to every species of trick to keep Lord purposes to move the themselves in office, but they would soon meet their reward. Mr W. 0. STANLEY was understood to express his ap probation of the measure. hto t l h r e . D ti l in Sß e A nt E w L h l second reading of the Bill. I was, unfortunately, not in the House when the Noble Lord referred to this subject, but I understand that the Bill is not ready to be laid upon the ' table. It is customary when a statement of importance, such as that which the Noble Lord has t hi s evening made, rch Se th m e e N o b l e d oubt , is addressed t o th e House , that the Bill on which it pro fesses to be founded should be laid on the table at the same time—(Hear, hear)—but I understand it is th e i ntention of the Noble Lord not to bring in the Bill until Wednesday • next. Lord J. RUSSELL—I will bring in the Bill on Wednes day, or, it may be, Thursday. I will then propose that it be was veryave the no read a second ti me on F r id a y fortnight. Mr. DISRAELI—Th e N o ble Lord's explanation i s not satisfactory.—(H ear , h ea r.) It seems to meimpossibl e c k o a n n s ds. i de r Theth i s Noblequestion r p d r , o a perl to doubt, but, b e f ore com i ng t o a definite opinion on th e su bj ect it is a n ecessary pre li m i nary th a t we should have the Bill before us. Th e t i me to b e a ll o wed for the considerati on of the ques ti on must of course date from the mome n t when the Bill s h a ll b e l a id on the table. I think a fortnight, at this pe r i o d o f t h e sess i on, i s n ot a sufficient time. Sixty seven boroughs are t o b e dealt with, and certain towns are until statement til we have to be co nnecte d w i th them. Th e inhabitants of these towns ought to hav e an opportun ity of making known their views and feelings on t h e su bj ect. I believe that much more cone siderable tim e t h an t h e N o bl e Lord now proposes to grant was given when the first Reform Bill was introduced. When Sir R. Peel introduced the Bill for the repeal of the corn-laws in P , 46, he proposed that more than a fortnight should elapse before the second reading, in order to allow the country to express its opinion on the measure. The House should recollect that not we alone, but the country, should be allowed a full and fair opportunity of becoming acquainted with this impo r t an t measure . In point of detail the Bill for the repe a l o f t h e corn -l aws can bear no comparison with the measure which the Noble Lord has sketched, but which he is not prepared to lay on the table of the House.— (Hear, hear.) Even if the Bill were ready to be produced, I think a month should elapse before the proposal of the second reading. I say again this time is necessary, not for us, but for the country—for those who are to be affected by the Bill. No measure of this kind ever gave content unless it were accompanied with the power of investigation, and it may be of rejection. It is a most unsual thing for a Mi nister to come forward and make a statement of importance, introductory of a Bill, without being able to produce the Bill itself.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") I would object to this course of proceeding, even if I assumed that the Bill was delayed by some mere technicality, and that, after the seven teen or twenty-seven Cabinet Councils which have been held, Ministers have_ really made up their minds on the question. —(A laugh.) But when we know that Ministers continue to meet daily the case assumes a very different aspect. The Bill, when produced, may be invested with a great many details which the Noble Lord has it not in his power to com municate to us.—(Hear, hear.) ~ If when the Bill is laid upon the table we find in it anything which may not agree with, or be additional to the statement we have been fa voured with to-night, that would be a reason for a longer in terval between the first and second reading than the Noble Lord proposes. Considering the importance of the question —considering that the Minister himself has not made up his mind, apparently, to the details of his own measure, I do not, I think, a sk too m uch in demanding a l onger t i me for a consideration. I think it is much bette r th at we should have a month, an d that is not a great deal more than three Parliamen t ary weeks, to enable the country t o make itself acqua i nte d w ith the measure. So far as l am concerned, I sin no t disposed for discussion on the present occasion. I cannot, however, help congratulating the Parliamentary re f orm ers on the con tent with which they se em to have Ic accepted the measure of the Noble Lord.—(A lau g h.) It doesee a p pear to me, how ever, that those gentleme n h ave shownthem selves satisfied with very short commons. —(A laugh.) So far as I have been able to form an opi n i on, I must con f e ss that it does appear that the Noble Lord h as, on the w , one occasion laid down in this House. My imp ress i on is, that there is nothing i n the scheme, as it has been exp l ained to-night, which h as a tendency to disturb, I will not say the balance between t h e two great interests of the countrY, but the adjustment that was made at the time of the Reform Bill of 1832.—( Hear , hear.) Ido not use the word b th al e an n ce e ' w. ' because proe think that balance exists ; 1 think there is a preponderance in favour of the town and commercial classes in the ad justment as then made; but I do not think, so far as I can form an opinion from merely listening to the oral serious tendency to disturb and therefor* adjustment; on that ground I feel I 2 -M considerably relieved.—(Hear , statement of the Minister, .that‘‘ he At the same time, I tell the Hon. Member for Blanchester that I cannot at all agree with his dogma that the existing adjustment is at all destroyed by boroughs like I h has any not Thetford returning two Members and cities like Manchester returning on ly two Members. Throu hout the whole of,the argu ments I have heard on this subject from Gentlemen op posite, both here and as reported • m other places, a great fal lacythe subject, b as I shall is observale, and pervades all th a t t h e y b r ing forward on be prop er d e to show at the right time and on the fitting occasion. The Hon. Gentleman has referred to the case of Thetford and Manchester, and it is on .lv because he has done so that I enter upon the w W hen th ect at all no . e th at Gentleman refers to the has sh sub authority of one who -own, no doubt, great intelligence and much industry in ; ; g-v-ng info r • of these illation on many . • ts and then proceeds to found pont , upon that information the fallacy that the population and the property of the great towns ought to be the test as to re presentation I must leave to say that - I do not admit the position.—(Hear, take , Hear, hear) The argument that because a boron two Members therefore Sian' Thetford e gh like re turns hester should return the number of Members proportionate to its population, and property, is an inference altogether ference, indeed, is the other way. It is erroneous. The in- Thetford should not return two Members, that such places as ter should return more.—(Hear, hear ) I4ot that Manches- a paper which has just been brough t i undo hold in my hand refers to the case of a great northern county, Ty notice. It are large manufacturing towns mean theYcjiin which there Cheshire. The population is 21 7,000, and there of North manufacturing towns in the division, macolea tt fi ere are two population of 33,000, and the too celebrated Stockport,eld with a upwards of 80,000, the two towns together hav with tion of 83,000, which, deducted from the whole tug a popula of the northern division of Cheshire, l eavas3 Population the two manufacturing towns, with 83,000 inhabitants,4,ooo. But turn four Members, while the rural popaha re return only two lembers.—(Hear, hear.) But of 134,000 that the figures as laid down by the Hon. Genti admitting right, they would only prove that places like Thetfordthat and Man chester should have more.— (Hear, he.) withregardMan thismy duty to Bill if I thought there was any attempt to establiselialler se the Pr p o nderance of any particular part of the H ouse, I mustbeforere- us.—(Hear, hear.) When I see how the Govern ment propose to deal with 60 or 70 boroughs when I see what those boroughs are, and how they are to be managed under the new arrangement, then I shall know how to give my opinion. eßut I shall sup pose now that the arrangementslshall as Government have been made and accomplished. . . _sum o , that in 1852, subjects whim ta after the experience on these e House has acquired, any of those not very creditable manoeuvres as to the settlement of the bound ar i e s which distinguished the set- Bill will not very tlement of the first Reform easily occur.-- lieve that an (Hear, hear.) I cannot be _... . Y.' Party in this of it, will support a Minister m House, or out ment the object of which i ment of the new boroughs s to support t,......fi1ear, hear.) his own party in Parliatnen both of I have that in the increasedknowledge the House of confidence a s to feel that those , Commons and the . ear. Whether, manoeuvres cannot be repeated,—(Hear, h .. the oble Lord , then, I look sea the Bill as I collect it from , where it ap o os d have a character not pP e to the constitu prs to me to present existing; or whether 1 tional arrangement at that all arrangements respecting the assume, which I do. and execute • new constituencies will be conceived d in a fair spirit, Ido nut find on these two pointsCO grounds of opposi. tion.—_(Hear, hear.) But I reserve the myself House—to the full right --when the subject is fairly before e consider whether, under the circumstances of the ase,. it was a wise on the thing to undertake any measure up subject, the present meas ure is and, it it were a wise thing, whether one so far a ade quately suited to the case. I confess, a I can form an opinion —but indeed Ido not feel.bound, till the Bill is opinion ; in factit 'in my hand, to give any opinion but an impression I give—the BM does not seem to me to be one of very questionable propriety.— TUESDAY EVENING-, FEBRUARY (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord has on several occasions dilated on the wisdom of settling great question% in !Dements of comparative calm and tranquillity. I think, as a general principle, that is a wise course; but care should be taker., in dealing with what may require alteration in the comm onwaalth, to introdube nothing that is calculated to excite the passions of great masses of the community.— ( Hear, hear.) It is in the moment of tracquillity, when passions are not excited and interests are tranquil, that you should come forward and deal with those interests; but you are bound to deal with them in such a manner al will not unnecessarily provoke discussion, so that the settlement may be—l will not say final, for that is not a term to be used in human affairs—but such a one as is calculated to be perma nent.—(Hear. hear.) So far as I can now form a hasty opinion, I cannot say that I think the measure ;brought for ward by the Noble Lord a very statesmanlike measure. The Noble Lord says that the 101. householders are in a certain sense to be disfranchised, and that we are to have 51. householders on the register. What is the great object of the Si. franchise? That you should admit the workiug classes to the exercise of the suffrage. I have always been the advocate of an industrial suffrage • but I am no t satis fied that this 5/. franchise will act in that way. lam not to be persuaded that there was no measure better fitted for this purpose, no arrangement more apposite and more calculated to complete this end, than merely lowering the rating of the rent on which the suffrage de pends.—(Hear, hear.) I have here a paper moved for some years ago by the Hon. Member for Marylebone, which con tains a list of the boroughs, with their populations and con stituencies, in England. I was anxious to find out the sixty seven boroughs, with which the Noble Lord means to deal in this Bill, and I commenced with the list before me. I began with Caine; went through what I supposed must b e th e sixty-seven boroughs, assuming from the smallness of the constituencies that those I selected must be the sixty-seven places which the Noble Lord wishes to disturb. Then, having exhausted the sixty-seven boroughs, I proceeded through the list, taking those that, from the number of their constituencies, I presumed must be exempted from the ope ration of the Noble Lord's Bill—those above 500. The first borough I found on the exempted list was St. Albans.— (Laughter.) I only mention this to show that in settling this question we have a great many details to consider. The merit of a measure like the present depends very much on its details, and that is the reason why, when a Minister makes a proposition of this nature, and is not prepared to lay his Bill on the table —a very strange occurrence cer tainly—l think the country have a right to expect that ample time will be given to consider those details. — (Hear, hear.) I have thus expressed what I really feel on the matter. I feel, so far as the two tests I have referred to go, that I am not prepared on those grounds to oppose the Bill of the Noble Lord. Upon the greater ground I reserve my opinion. I have great hesitation as to the propriety of introducing this measure at all. I have great doubts whether it is a measure deep enough and compre hensive enough' . to deal with a question the Minister has himself voluntarily raised.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord ought well to consider that it is of the utmost importance that questions of this kind should be very maturely consi dered before they are decided upon—that it is of the greatest importance that all measures for the adjustment and ar rangement of the suffrage should be of a permanent cha racter. The Noble Lord is the last Minister who ought to doubt the correctness of that principle. I say very frankly to the Noble Lord that I do not think it is to the credit of this country, of this House, or of himself as a statesman, that every year he should alter the franchise of Ireland. (Hear, and laughter.) I think if the Noble Lord had only pondered on those subjects a little longer he would have hardly been in the singular position of having brought for ward a Reform Bill only twelve months ago for the kingdom of Ireland, and now confessing that that measure is perfectly inadequate to its objects.—(Hear, hear.) I hope it is not ominous of the measure the Noble Lord is now bringing forward. I think it will be just as well if gentlemen on the other side of the House, who exert themselves to the utmost to get a measure brought forward, should thoroughly consider what that measure is. Gentlemen opposite have had experience on this subject. They received with enthusiasm the Bill of 1832. They de nounced everybody who opposed it, and expected that it would in every respect answer the purpose. Bat they have lived to find out their mistake, and they should so far profit from the past, and receive—l will not say with suspicion, but without passion —the present measure of the Minister. —;Hear, hear.) Let them remember we are at the c )m -mencement of the session, and that we have much to do with other measures.—(Hear, bear.) Let not Government allow Parliamentary Reform to divert their attention from other reforms.—(Hear, hear.) Depend upon it that what ever you give with regard to the extension of the franchise, the great body of the people will not be satisfied if the greater part or the session is occupied with Parliamentary reform.--(Hear, hear.) The people out of doors wish to see the whole question of our colonial government entered into. They wish to see the principles on which our system of taxation is established inquired into. The people out of doors have some anxiety to know whether there will be legal reform or not.—( Hear, hear.) These questions will require considerable attention and very laborious amend ment of details, and these are reasons why we should not approach this subject, thrown into our hands so early in the session. We should try to ascertain what the time requires, think carefully whether this change be required by the people, and whether the proposition of the Government is one of that nature that is calculated to satisfy the country when obtained.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY had listened, as he always did, with the deepest attention to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and he must confess he was unable to discover whether he was to be numbered among the sup porters or the opponents of the Bill. From some previous observations it might be implied that he would have been very glad if an extension of the suffrage had been submitted by the Government; and now, when an outline of the pro posed measure had b een given by his Noble Friend, he stated that to the principle laid down by his Noble Friend he did not see any objection. Then he asked for a month's delay, in order that the minute details of the Bill might be consi dered by the country and the House. Now, the details of the measure were questions essentially for the Committee— such, for example, as whether one borough should be joined with another, or not. He hoped, therefore, the House would not consent to the delay proposed by the Honourable Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with him that other subjects of great importance would come under the attention of Paaliament ; and the way to get them before Parliament would be to have no delay in proceeding with the Bill now before the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said it was a very unusual occurrence not to lay a Bill before the House on the night on which leave was given to bring it in ; but he believed he was wholly mistaken as to the precedents in this matter. The Right Hon. Gentle man the Member for Stamford asked a question as to the day fixed for the second reading; and his Noble Friend in reply gave a full fortnight, not between the present time and the second reading, but from the time when the Bill would be in their hands. Such a period he did not think at all unrea sonable. The Hon. Gentleman hinted something about manoeuvres and tricks with reference to the arrangements under the Bill, and founded that suspicion on what he said had notoriously taken place with the Reform Bill of 1832. What the circumstances were to which the Hon. Gentleman referred he knew not ; but, if any steps were taken by Minis ters that could be called in question, ample opportunities would be given of stating objections when they considered the details of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) What he asked was, that if there were objections to the Bill they should be manfully stated by its opponents, and that there should be no attempts to defeat the measure by postponing it till a late period of the session. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman seemed to speak as if the extension of the franchise to 51. would have the effect of disfranchising 101. householders. Mr. DISRAELI—I did not say so. Sir G. GREY understood the Hon. Member to say so, but of course if he disclaimed the statement he would make no remarks upon the subject. The Hon. Gentleman referred to St. Albans, and read from an old return, which did not ap ply to the present state of the constituency of that borough. He believed, however, that the present state of the consti tuency of St. Albans fell within the number which his Noble Friend had stated as the point within which he pro posed boroughs to be dealt with.—(Hear, hear.) In conclu sion, he hoped the House would not grant the delay asked for by the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Sir B. HALL said, in previous sessions the Government had been charged with not bringing forward a measure of reform, and now the Gentlemen opposite came forward a n d said the Noble Lord was too hasty in his proposal, and was about to cause unnecessary excitement among the people. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire called upon the Noble Lord to postpone the Bill for an inde finite time—one of the most monstrous propositions he ever heard.—( Hear.) As the Right Hon. Gentleman had shown, the material points to be considered were matters of detail, and they would naturally fall to be considered in Commit tee. The Hon. Gentleman opposite said the Bill ought to have been laid on the table of the House. The Hon. Gen tleman was not a Member of the House when the first Re form Bill was introduced; but he could tell him that his Noble Friend was now acting in the sams way as he then did. On the 10th of March leave was given to bring in the first Reform Bill, and it was read a first time on the 14th of March.—(Hear.) That was the very course now proposed to be taken. Then, when was it read a second time? It was a measure of much greater importance than the pre sent, and yet only seven days after that Bill was brought into the House the Noble Lord moved that it be read a se cond time.—( Hear.) And now, when they had been calling for reform for years, the Hon. Gentleman opposite got up and asked that it should be postponed for a whole month I —(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had made use of strong language with reference to the boundaries of boroughs. The Hon. Gentleman talked of manoeuvres and proceedings having taken place in fixing the boundaries in 1832, but who was the principal party to those manoeuvres ? Lord Stanley, of whom the Hon. Gentleman was now a follower. That Noble Lord was one of the principal parties concerned in the Reform Bill ; he took a most active part as to the boundaries of the boroughs; and now the Hon. Gentlem . an taunted the Noble Lord at the head of the Government with with regard used discreditable manoeuvres and proceeding s regard to them.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman ought to recollect with whom he was associated before he cast such reflections upon his Noble Friend.—( Hear, and a laugh .) But when he talked of this not being a full and comprehen sivemeasure, he (Sir B. Hall) with him. It was not o in his sense, nor perhaps in that of the Hon. Gentleman, be cause he thought the Hon. Gentleman had been in fav_ourHoef the ballot and triennial Parliaments.—(A l i a )u h wished those questions had been introduced into it. It would b he have made it much fuller and more comprehe ort at of the doubted whether it would have now had the sup, Hon. Gentleman bpposite.—(Hear.)He must,of the Government congratulate his Noble Friend at the head however, on one sign of the times: —that whereas dlB3l— and he was a Member of the Hous e stage of the Bill was fought:—he at n t l h B a 3 t o time—every an division of the House at a quarter past astether—now there was remembered, indeed, a seven in the morning, and they had 16 or 17 divisions a tog to be no division.—(Hear.) Hon. dared not in the face of their constituents opposite tin And when the Hon. en ts vote against thi s Bill being introduced.—(He s Gentle man taunted the Liberal Reformers with voting for this Bill, did he suppose they :w i l d le for? They meant to dod v ote against it becau se i t did not give them all they w nothing of the sort; they would take more.—(Hear, o a r l e.— all they tir, hear,ceoauldge get andmmove amendments and try and g laughter.) He agreed wit h the Noble Lord in one respect, that it would be extremely wrong to continue the very small boroughs. Some papers which he had moved for, and which, he believed, would be before the House in a d ay or two, would ill us trate his objec lions on that point. P ro b a b ly there would be a schedule attached to theßill,ttnd if there were the first borough in the schedule beginning with the letter A should be Arundel, wid u h ni p ty sv o o f uld mo t v h i e n n ge g t i v h t that on. G ent l em en opposite the opp i)r l town should no longer send Members to Parliament. (Some Hon. Member suggested that Abingdon came before Arundel.) Well, whether it wtze Abingdon or Arundel, he would give Hon. ar Gentlemen the ; same opp ortun i ty.—(Hear.) For his own pt, he feared tlaat the sch eme o f t h e N o bl e Lord, in congregating together towns, would place the coun ty constituencies more in the hands of the landlords, and give the landlords more power o ver their tenants than at pre sent; and they might rely on it, that it would come to that which Earl Grey spoke of in the House of Lords, —they must have the ballot to protect the people.—(Hear.) He thought they ought to have a Reform Bill based on the principle of the former one—of enfranehi§ement and disfranchisement, 10, 1852. and when they had miserable little boroughs like those re ferred to by his Hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, they ought to be disfranchised. The flon. Gentleman had taken very good care to show up some of the boroughs repre sented by Hon. Geutelemen on his (Sir B. Hall' s ) side of the h Ouse. But were there none represented by Hon. Gentlemen opposite? Were there not Wilton, Christchurch. Flythe, Buckingham, Helstone, Huntingdon, and Stamford? Ile thought this state of things was disgraceful to the country— ( Hear, hear)—and that the first principle of the Reform Bill ought to be to disfranchise those small boroughs, and then to add protection to the voters. He could not quite understand why the county constituencies should be put on a different footing from those of the boroughs—(hear)— w h y i n a borough there should be a 101. franchise and a 21. franchise, and yet in counties there should only be a 201. franchise? Was - it a compliment to the voters in towns, to show they were so much more intelligent and enlightened, that a man who had a property to the extent of id. a year was qualified to vote, while a farmer who rented property of less than 20/. a year was not qualified to vote? But there was a greater anomaly than that. Was the Irish farmer so much more en lightened a character than the English farmer? And why was the former, with a 12/. holding, to have a vote, when the farmer in this country could only have it for a 20/. hold ing ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought there should be the same qualification in towns as in counties.—(Hear, hear.) It might be said that that would give more influence to the laaJlords; but, as he had said before, then give the people the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with any details, but would thank the Noble Lord for bring ing in the Bill, and hoped he would not admit of any delay ; and, when the Hon. Gentleman opposite spoke of the people being anxious for law reform, for an inquiry into the colo nial system and the taxation of the country, he entirely agreed with him, but would suggest whether the best way of shortening the business of the House would not be by making their speeches as short as they c c e o e u d ld w , iatnhdthtehegnreatht egyuewstoioulalds tohawvheichpltehnetyHoofmtimGeenttolempraon had referred. After a few words from Lord NEWPORT, which were not heard distinctly in the gallery, Lord D. STVART said that out of doors this measure would not be regarded by the people as sufficiently full and comprehensive. The boroughmongers—the proprietors of such boroughs as Gatton and Old Sarum —were trembling, lest they should be deprived of that unrighteous power and influence which they had held so long, and which they still exercised for corrupt purposes, and therefore they had come down in large numbers to that House to defend their boroughs.—(Hear, hear.) He could not say that this mea sure would give to the country great satisfaction. It would not come up to the wishes and desires of the people at large. —(Hear.) It certainly did not satisfy him or agree with his notions; for, in the first place, it was not based on any great principle.—(Hear.) He admitted it would extend the franchise, and so tar would be of benefit, but it was to be an extension only from 101. to 51., drawing an arbitrary line and based upon no principle. The Noble Lord had repu diated the doctrine of the finality of the Reform Bill by bringing in this new measure of reform, and he must have been perfectly conscious that this could not be a final mea sure.—( Hear.) He believed it could only be considered as an instalment. As to the change the Noble Lord proposed to introduce into the constituencies, he thought it would be productive of very small advantage, and would not give the people a true and efficient representation. He feared that those in whose hands the Noble Lord proposed to place the franchise were not likely to be free agents, and that therefore it would only be giving additional power to the landlords. He thought that for a full representation of the people there must be a much larger extension of the fran chise than the Noble Lord proposed, and that there could be none unless the people were efficiently protected in the ex ercise of their rights.—(Hear, hear.) And in speaking of the rights of the people he could not help noticing an ex pression of the Noble Lord, used by him early in his speech. The Noble Lord said he thought it was time to extend the franchise as a reward to the people. He did not think that was a proper and statesmanlike view of the subject. If it was for the advantage of the country or of its inhabitants that they should have the suffrage they ought to have it for great political reasons; but if it was not for the advantage of the country then it ought to be withheld. The Noble Lord appeared not to be satisfied with the small boroughs as they now existed ; but he (Lord D. Stuart) had great doubt of the propriety of the course pursued by the Noble Lord with respect to them. He would warn the House not *to suppose, when a borough was either so corrupt or a no minee borough in the hands of some great proprietor, that adding to it some neighbouring town or towns would make it necessarily an open and a free borough. He thought that in some instances the contrary would be the case. He would refer to one—the borough of Arundel, which he had once the honour of representing. In the Reform Bill it was proposed to add to that borough the neighbouring port of Little hampton. The Noble Lord would recollect what had oc curred. A great objection was made to the proposed arrangement by the inhabitants of Arundel. The proposal was not by any means one of the discreditable tricks and contrivances alluded to by the Hon. Member for Bucking hamshire, by which it was attempted to place influence in the hands of the partizans of the _Noble Lord at the head of the Government. It was said that the intention was to con solidate the power of the great proprietor in the neighbour hood—the Duke of Norfolk ; but that proposal was resisted by the inhabitants of Arundel, because they thought it would make Arundel a complete nominee borough in the hands of the Duke, inasmuch as he held very considerable property in the town of Arundel, but had not complete power over it, whilst the whole town of Littlehampton belonged to him, and the borough therefore would have been entirely in his power. He was afraid such things would happen when two or three small towns were taken together, and therefore he could not think that such a plan would have the effect of giving to the people the full and free representation they ought to have. The Noble Lord had omitted to mention one matter which out of doors was considered of great importance—the short ening of the duration of Parliament, a proceeding which was altogether essential to the rendering the representation of the people what it ought to be, by rendering the representa tives earlier responsible to the people. He would repeat that he regarded this measure as far from calculated to satisfy the just expectations of the country. But, inasmuch as it was a step in the right direction, as it destroyed for ever the doctrine of finality, as it recognised that some thing ought to be done for the improvement of the repre sentation, he was ready to accept it as an instalment, with the full purpose in his own mind to obtain still more so soon as practicable- He trusted that the Noble Lord would not listen to the insidious suggestions made to him for delay ing the measure, on the part of men who, had he taken a different course, would themselves have been the first to re proach him with dilatoriness, and with a want of earnestness of purpose—(Hear, hear)—and he trusted, at the same time, that those who supported the Bill would also apply their efforts to make it more practically efficient. Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL would not, on this occa sion, enter into the general character of the measure; but, as an Irish representative and a Roman Catholic, he begged to express his grateful thanks to the Noble Lord for having done away with the present most insulting system of oaths , a relief which would be warmly appreciated in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) He trusted the Noble Lord would carry the new principle beyond the walls of Parliament. He begged to ask the Noble Lord whether there would be a separate Bill for Ireland ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that a separate Bill for Irelaud would be brought forward on Friday. After a few words from Captain HARRIS, Leave was given to bring in the Bill. The House adjourned at Half•past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 9. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Ealing, praying for the enfranchisement of copyhold tenure. BRIBERY OATHS. Lord BROUGHAM, seeing his Noble Friend the Presi dent of the Council, whose recent indisposition he greatly lamented, once more in his place, would take the liberty of putting a question to him. The Noble and Learned Lord, who spcike in a tone of voice very indistinctly heard in the gallery, then proceeded to give a summary of the oaths which had recently been proposed by himself and others for the prevention of bribery at elections. They were all in one point or another defective; but much of the evil had been cured by the Evidence Bill, which he kad himself introduced into the statute-book; for now both the sitting Member and the unsuccessful candidate for a seat were both liable to be examined on oath, subject, no doubt, to their refusal to an swer any question which might criminate themselves, and to 'the consequences criminatory of themselves which might result from their silence. Unquestionably, however, some thing more than the Evidence Bill was wanted to render the law for the prevention of bribery perfect. He, there fore, hoped that her Majesty's Ministers would take the subject under their consideration, as many instances had occurred of late which confirmed rather than created the existence of great bribery at elections. He bad a strong notion that a hill might now easily be produced which, with the Evidence Bill, would put a stop to these corrupt .prac tices. The true course to be taken in order to extirpate on nribheis takingrywould h b i e s s to oa e t x , a ac d t e f o r l o a m rat e i v on ery th M at e h m a b h e a r d of n P ot l r b lr y amen t , him self or his agents, directly or indirectly, given or promised i a case at. k d e e declaration r rn a t a i o k n o money or any other valuable thing to, or had used or pro mised to use any influence to procure a place or pension for, any voter who had voted at his election, and that he w as wholly ignorant of any gift or promise made on his behalf by auy such person to such voter, and that he wilily dis believed that any such thing had been done on his behalf; and furthermore to bind himself by a solemn promise not to pay any one thing, or to fulfil any one promise, or to do any thing whatsoever to carry into execution the payment, or premise, or engagement of his agents in his behalf. The r same declaration should also be exacted from the unsuccess ful candidate at the election for the xi s n e oe a ba t ia , el parnadctLiceeasrnheadd Lordbeen in ousting the sitting Member. That was he succeeded which he thought that no man would undr question, if we heard him unless he were convinced that no committed at his election. The A . N S askingp 0 _ 1 ,a V n I•T y E said that it would give h c n correctly.inTchlteuh concluded highest irgclhu withoutei satisfactionestefL n fo o r th t i h n e g e c ff or e r o u tu pt a i l o h n now prevalent at elections, for g r i iid s n a eldY tisfaction in informinad) . 7et been done. He had also h p ce r i his Noble and Learned Friend that the subject had already aennogtaicgee! the t a h t taedn tither ofbegeenr other House of Parliament. e given already, or would' b tion on the part of her tlajest r y r given that very night, in the corrupt and demoralizing practih'ceee There was to9tyv Government speedy oe fi nd x yt e te d on db d .r e i t n. e g r n t r h i n o a s e a notice of motion already or would be e g n ive t n iu t s ha s Lord BROUGHAM had . great satisfaction hearing that in Go vernment. Had he known t ub n je ig ct ht ha b d y h ei s t r hek a b jes ee t n y ,g s i G ve o n . of that notice he would not have said one word on this subject to their Lordships. He hoped and tru s t e d that there was sufficient virtue in the other House of Porliament not to evade its duty on this point. AFFAIRS OF INDIA. In reply to a request from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, The Earl of EL LENBOROUGH postponed till Monday next the questions which he had intended to ask on this sub ject on Tuesday (this day). STATE OF IRELAND. The Earl of RODEN gave notice that he would, to-mor row, put a question to the Government with reference to the melancholy state of the disturbed districts in the north of Ireland. If the answer which he might receive should prove unsatisfactory, he should feel it his duty to bring the state of that part of the country under their Lordships' con sideration. REFORM OF THE COMMON LAW. The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to move the second reading of the Common Law Procedure Bill. This was one of the Bills which bad been mentioned in her Majesty 'e Speech, and was founded on the recommendation of the Com missioners, who bad well considered the reforms which might be introduced into the procedure of the common law. Their Lordships were, doubtless, aware of the distinctions which existed between that branch of the law by which rights were determined, and that branch which regulated the course of procedure by which those rights were pre sented for litigation. The present Bill belong ed to the lat ter branch of the l aw, and it was addressed toremwediythu those is. defects and d eficiences which were generally and tics complained of. The presen t system of procedure ori ginated in a re mote per i o d. It was now inappropriate to, S pi Th c • -41) , ; and inconsistent with the changes of the time in whic' lived, and it produced consequences precisely th e oi situ o: those which its original framers intended. 01 'Jelly, there was no such thing as written Pleading in for, r _ times, but a system of oral pleading then existed. wLerA....---,,-,.,it„;mlN parry brought an action he came into come and stared hiM r 4rs v ." " ce.se, and then the defendant's counsel either made an oh jeczion in point of form, or disputed the case upon, its merits. The objection ; if it were mere one of form, was decided instantly, and if the decision went against the plaintiff, application to amend was made imme diately, and after such amendment was made the defendant was called upon to answer the case upon its merits. When the defendant had pleaded to the action and the objection of the plaintiff's counsel to that plea, if any were made, had been taken down by the officer of the court, the pleadings were put in a proper shape, and the issue which the jury had to decide upon when the day of trial came was arranged. In later times, when the legal business had so increased, it was found impossible any longer to have a form of oral pleading. The declaration accordingly was prepared in the allegations a a t n ie d ne th w e b d ie e b fen ir da e n en t thaiandedt.ime It had f h re im que t n o tl a y n b sw ap er . ampneednreedfethat when the objections to a declaration were of a i nn eh ba a tpo l dg objectionseu celnatiayt determinedhp n eta hn a d t ee u dbu r pe e pt , reehenn t sa h et nf a fie t tlrae tdshye.moi system those eemh o r abfjroeic twelvet on s monthswere n not f arguedter the ble delay. The observation applied t c e au cause e con d s e i l d a e y ra equally to frivolous was one procedure, for t e li r fotthe r would greatgofaur pro ceedingsrrdd which were - taken in a cause. Their Lord ships would perceive how ti differently mere formal objec ons were dealt with in ti mes past to what they were at present. In very early times all tried in Westminster Hall, b ut in thefcases were reign o Henry I. a statute was passed by which a circuit took place once a year; and in the reign of Edward 111. the statute was passed which had reference to the sittings at Nisi Prins, and the assizes were directed to be held twice a year by that statute. Still, in form, the case was apparently tried in Westminster, be cause the jury who belonged to the county in which the action was to be tried were summoned as if to attend in Westminster Hall ; but they did not attend, and were only actually summoned when the judge went the circuit. In the year 1846 there had been 146,000 writs issued; 2 per cent. of the whole were tried, 5 per cent. went as far as the declaration, and 7 per cent. never reached even that stage ; so that in one-half of the cases in which writs were i ssue d the dispute was settled before the time arrived for entering an appearance to a declaration. The vast majority of cases in which writs were issued were for undisputed debts. The Present Bill sought to diminish the expense connected with the earlier stage of a cause. The present Bill travelled through every stage of the suit. It provided that when a writ was issued it should be endorsed, which endorsement should state how much was claimed for the debt and how much for costs, thereby giving the defendant notice in an early part of the proceedings what was the amount the pay ment of which he had to object to. If the defendant did not appear to the action judgment was to be signed upon the writ without the expense of a declaration, or of an in terlocutory judgment, or a final judgment, according to the nature of the action. By the present state of things the declaration gave a defendant no material information, and its abolition in these cases would be no loss, but a great benefit. The present Bill also did away with technical ob jections, which their Lordships were aware were not connected in any way with the material points in the case. There were numerous other objections, called special demurrers, which consisted of objections taken at an earlier stage of the case. There was a statute which had been passed which required that technical objections should be stated in the form of special demurrer, and should be kept separate from any demurrer which applied to the real merits of the case. By the present system special demurrers remained for many months on the paper before they were disposed of. There were also many steps in the proceeding which did not form the subject of a special demurrer, and which might not be noticed until the defendant either moved in arrest of judg ment or for a writ of error, and in those case s h e cou ld stop the whole proceedi ngs at the time when the plaintiff thought that he should get justice done him. The present Bill would allow no writ of error unless the objection were taken in an early stage of the cause. It was not to be expected that a Bill of this extent could be framed so as to be free from all objections. The motive of its introduction was to remove much of that odium which belonged to the present system of the procedure at common law, and he believed it would go far to secure that object. Lord LYNDHURST said that no reasonable person could object to the Bill being read a second time. The Bill was the result of many months of labour and assiduity on the part of those who had it in their power to make it as perfect as possible. The objection he entertained to the measure related to points of detail, which could be amended in Com mittee. There was, however, one question to which be would wish to have a satisfactory reply. The county courts had been established for some years. He was told that since the jurisdiction was extended to 50/. no less than 5,000 causes of between 20/ and 50/. had been tried in five months, being at the rate of 12,000 causes a year, and the decisions in each case had giv en satisfaction. Now, he could not understand why the simple machinery of the county courts could not be applied to the superior courts of common law in ordinary cases, where the superior judges could decide them. Lord BROUGHAM said he entirely concurred with his Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down, that the proper course to take would be to give the Bill a second read ing, and to reserve all matter of detail for the Committee. He agreed in the eulogium which the Noble Lord who had just spoke had passed upon the county courts; but with re spect to the question of still further extending their jurisdic tion, that was a subject on which he was not prepared to pro nounce an opinion. Lord LYNDHURST said the Noble and Learned Lord had entirely mistaken his meaning. He had not said that he de sired to see the jurisdiction of the county courts extended to large sums ; but what he said was, that he could not under stand why the simple machinery of the county courts could not be applied in the superior courts to the same class of actions.—(Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM apologised to the Noble and Learned Lord, but he had understood him to intimate an opinion that the jurisdiction of the county courts might advan tageously be extended to causes of 200/. 'and 3001. The present was a period when extensive reforms of the law were required by the country. He thought those reforms might be made extensively and with advantage to the public. He could not express his feelings on the subject more appropriately than by reading the language of Lord Denman, who, on being referred to for his opinion on the law reforms now proposed, replied as follows :—" The present crisis cannot fail to suggest considerations of the highest im portance. There are .the appearances of an attempt to esta blish order on absolute power, and to teach mankind the les son that the will of one may be most safely intrusted with the interests of all. But if there be any truth in moral reason ing, or in long experience, all know that without the basis of law no solid fabric of order can possibly be reared or any security given for the rights which eve* the best-minded man and the best-designed decrees may pretend to confer. It appears to be the peculiar vocation of England t o ex hibi t to the nations of the world a steady Government and peaceable, , because contented, people; and that content m us t no t b e looked for, since it cannot and ought not to exist where the press is free and the people but moderately enlightened, whilst a single grievance is wilfully retained after exposure." The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was not aware of the course of proceeding in the county courts after the declara tion had been filed, but he was certain that any recommenda tions or suggestions which might fall from the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Lyndhurst) would be received with re spect and consideration by the pu FOREIGN REFUGEES IN ENGLAND. Lord STRANGFORD said that he had perused some do cuments which had been published, and which contained the remonstrances of souse foreign Governments against the manner in which certain refugees had been received in this country. The first cf [these remonstrances was f rom the Republic, and P r esident of the French _was dated_on th e 29 t h day of last October , which was shortly before the late Se cretary for Foreign Affairs quitted office. A long time had elapsed since then, and he wished t o as k the Noble Lord who h a d succeeded Lord Palmerston whether any answer was returned by Lord Palmerston to those remonstrances and • ; if so, what the nature of the reply was ? Earl GRANVILLE said, having so lately succeeded the Noble Viscount (Palmerston) e thought h it wo u ld not be becoming in him to go at any length into the subject. Whether the Noble Vis count had • re monstrance he could not state en any ans wer t o th e but if he had remained in office, and had sent a reply, he had no d ou bt i t wou ld h a ve accorded with th e one which he (Earl Granville) had given. The Earl of ELLENBOROUG the late Secret ary f orForeig II wished to k now w h e th e r n Affairs had g i ven hi m any ex planation with r espect to the conversation w hi c h h e h a d h a d of the conduct of Loui N ch conv ersat i on h e had approve d Earl GRANVILLE ss apoleon ? aid that when Lord Palmerston quitted office he had given him a most clear and lucid statement with respect but he hadcountries, but to our relations with foreign made no mention of his conversation with M. Walewski. THE CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL AND THE PA TEN sad he Lord LYNDHURST said he M wished to call the attention of the House to the state of the business which was now before it. In the House of Commons there were seven or eight important Bills, which no doubt would become law during the present session; whilst, with the exception of the Bill relating to the amendment of the patent law, which had been read a second time that evening, there was not a single Bill before the House. Some people thought that the House of Lords was a sort of House of revision of the Bills passed in the House of Commons, but that was quite a mistake. He was surprised that the Charitable Trusts Bill, which was brought forward last session, had not been re introduced. There was also another important Bill which was introduced last session, viz., the Patent Law Amend ment Bill, which went down to the House of Com mons and nearly became the law of the land. It was thought that from the nature of the Bill it was better that it should be introduced first in the other House, but , after some consideration that proposal was rejected. Some forty or fifty amendments had been made in the House of Com mons to that Bill; one of which was to do away with the affixing the great seal to patents, a proposition which ex cited the displeasure of his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. Owing to the number of amendments to the Bill, it had only been returned to their Lordships' House the day before Parliament was prorogued, and consequently was lost tor the session, there being no time to consider the amend ments which had been made. They had now now to go over the details of the Bills which were lost last session again. Such would be the case with the Charitable Trusts Bill, and the:Bill for the amendment of the patent law. He begged to as k, therefbre, w h e ther his Noble an d Learned Friend on the Woolsack could not introduce the Charitable Trusts Bill, and som e Nob le Lord on the other side of the House the Patent Law Amend ment Bill, into their Lordships' House to !stthe Patent Law 2 prevent further loss of timei • The LORD CHANCELLOR r d t Amend ment Bill had been prep ared with great ea care, and when the under his notice he suggested the addition Bill was brought a court of law to of one clause, authorising r g grant an injunc tion,es i ht, to restra . when it was tlioug be charged with infringingin the proceedings a patent. of parties who mightbrought into their Lordships' The Bill was fter it went down House as early as it could be; but, a that, to the other House, it entirely altered at the late period at which it was as dit was impossible that was returne it could be reconsi dered last session. communications he had had weh his colleagu eson the subject he had proposed to bring into that H ous e all Bills which had in the previous session passe d the House of Commons b ut not their Lordships' and to introduce House, Bills as might have passed their Lordships' House but not the other House of Parliament , under and that arrange ment the Patent Bill was intended to have been brought into their Lordships' Douse. A communication, how ever, had been made to the Government, which led them to suppose that the Bill would be strenuously opposed in the other House, unless a Committee were pointed to inquire ss esenerally into the subject. Some very influential members of the House of Commons, who were extremely competent to give their judgment upon the ques tion, desired to have this Committee; and no time would be lost in forwarding the Bill. The Charitable Trusts Bill had passed that House last session, and bad been fully discussed both upstairs and doyen, and it was therefore deemed ex- `~`~~;r ~'