The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

question;. it Is,y . . as certain) renessary to have judges to decide theian sanction of the •-• • A wise, the pure, and the honest of all ages` .. I ti s it was a matter of opinion —of argument; and their Lord. every thing. shall be abandoned; cheerfully, even the - Alike: awn, had already heard the arguments at the bar, and they manic robes of dignity, provided always that the sacrifice be were now hearing some observations (which, no doubt, must demanded at our hands by a Tory Adminlstration.---(Hear.) be tiresome) in reply to th em. I n anot h er p l ace h e thus ex. From the mwe would receive as a blessing and a boon, what prestos ' himself" I can certify, after considerab'e led atten- from others w o uld appear to us a b ur d en and a curse. Not tive observ a ti on, w i t h out hesitation and without the fear of that we should altogether enjoy our degradation, or revel in Contradiction; that Englishmen greatly prefer a title derived feastless indolenc e .—(A from Kin g laugh.) No, we are aware of the _Aelfeeed Henry or King Richard, and particularly froth King sacrifice we shol u d make ; but this good at least would be or King Edgar, to one originating in a statute of the gained to us that should T have our friends in office, and we are ne . of teenth century. I speak not of the mushroom population cessarily friends of we a y n Ad t r ie in e is t t h r e a r tiop. i " This was the real mean. tired,certain indigenous towns mainly peopled by foreigners, but of the set- lug of the areuments or o title bit to o th in e an of common majority inhabitants of England ; that is to say, of a consistency of purpose, who hoped to ea si r t n e a , vast ,s siod.tyhadsee respect o f hi: t of the persons residing in that part of your Ma- countrymen, could for a moment lend his saection to it. H r e e jteitslteYs dorninions." He then said that Englishmen preferred debt of gratitude to the House for having thus attentively listened to an not Lordships derived from Henry VIII., from whom many of their individual who had no personal claims to their consieeration, and on a fr had titles, but Henry 1., or Richard, and particu- subject, more especially, so dull in itself that he could hardly have ex larl stituYt om Edgar and Alfred. Why, he might just as well in- rated anything like a patient hearing for it ;he could only make the In e u a se e h u is most hearty acknowledgments for their attention—(hear.) _ .. Le comparison between a sphinx and a turkey, or a mer- n si i on, h h . e felt it due to himself to say, that the part which he : na 'el., and a turkey, or a griffin and a horse.—( Hear, and had ta n ke l took in the ntis measure, resulted not only from the deep interest he ii ,,l.lgia ter. ) But where could they find a title derived from ed measure itself, but from the respected attachment which he e l rg Edgar or King Alfred? Surely this individual, who was entertair. for the House of which he was an unworthy member—(hear.) trenaely learned in the law, must know that no . suc i h Lord LYNDHURST said it was not his intention to adopt the ex. title existed in England. • And then he spoke so sneering y ample of his Noble and Learned Friend on this occasion : it was not Or course " mushroom population of certain towns," alluding, his intention to enter into the merits of the Bill of Parliamentary Re. o Urse, to Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, and such form, on which ' his Noble and Learned Friend had made so eloquent Places, where none of the contemporaries of King Edgar air harangue, further, indeed, than to remind that Noble and Learned or Alfred existed —where there were none of the indigenous Lord that some of those valuable rights which had been secured to free inhabitants of the country, but wh ere th e w h o l e popu l a- men by the Parliamentary R e f orm Bill, the Corpo ra ti on R e f orm Bill h ad t !°" had sprung from Normans, Frenchmen, and the va- attempted to deprive them of; nor was it till the last stage of the latter rlo.us foreigners who ma d e i nroa d s on t hi s country o f l ate Bill in the House of Commons, that the attempt was successfully re. I . ears.. --4 Hear, hear, and laughter.) In pages 25 and sisted [hear hear!]. With respect to what the Noble and Learned 23 , this gentleman found fault with the objections taken Lord had said in reference t, ti lt o l n r. t. H t o ri gf e , r or i i r e ,t of the Commissioners-.it made m o hh justificationthe Noble that was not his (Lord Les) inten ) t b iL t s be . Commissioners to " feasting," and applied the Gentleman from the unjust attacks . and Z ri , ll ' monastic" and " ascetic" to these Commissioners, Learned Lord; but he would ask, by whom had that y Gent' N em eh a l n e been ' ee n as e t described them as " legal monks, who did not like appointed to his situation ? Why, precisely by the same x ing, in which wise men had so often gloried."—( Great Learned Lord who, after his statements , that his knowlege, upon and ir laughter.) Again, in another place, he talked "of transplant- cuit and otherwise ,'of Mr. Hogg, induced him to believe that Gentle. - ing freedom, and allowing it to expand in boundless space."— man a proper person for the situation, now came forward and deelaredo2olitinned aughter.) Ile was willing to admit that this Re- that Gentleman's report to be a most absurd one, and that he was alto. Port might deserve praise, on the ground of being marked by gether incompetent to the situation. This, however, was a point which his (Lord L) would leave the Noble and Learned Loid to settle with e m e any a witticisms and Jokes; but he protested against its being those.tiie Noblersentleme d n in question. To proceed to other s lj e " C e s a counterbalance to the plain, sensible information pos " 'n e ts ell o e f a dis e e s us a si n o d nLearned Lord had referred to two LareuPPlled by the Report of the Commissioners. -He had so precedents only, which lie considered decisive of the present question, i.addressed himself to the _question as to the illegality of and as disposing of the motion the Noble . Lord. One of these issuing this Commission, and as te the manner in which it precedents w the Nil for the Abolition of Hereditary juris. Wits conducted; and he was quite ready to ashnit that these diction in Scotland. It was said that here no witnesses were lactsideration.s were quite beside the question ; his only apo- examined after Counsel had been heard. N ow , i n or d er to Bering an act of justice to those who had issued and exe- 63' fur a pplying himself to which was, that he was but ren- make this precedent a ewe is point, Noble Lords would ask, was evidence tendered P—if tend ere d, was it di scusse d ?—if is: cuted the Commission. These Commissioners had been cussed, was it rejected? If thi s poi n t cou ld not b e made out, attack e d v i gorously and powerfully, in a manner which he what became of the precedent ? N o bl e L or d s, h owever, would h ad been surprised to hear that this was quite the reverse of a prece. Lordships parti ; but he had not heard any charge against an 3. Trite, w t 1; 1:3 s wastendered oonly idocumentary withoutthe evidence; but , still it. was evidence, and was as such received . y much for the Noble and impeachment of their Report which did not come Wit ' Within the description of it which he had already , given, Learned Lord's first precedent. The second precedent relied upon was namely racy ~ that there had been a solitary instance of inaccu- the Bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade. Before the Noble and tio y . in the case' of Berwick ; a trifling mistake of risen- Learned Lord had relied upon that case, he should have extended his to rq one particular' member of a family instead of another, inquiries, and ascertained what objections were made to the evidence in the case. It was true that Lord Grenville opposed the reception cf mouth , respect to East ,7etford ; and with regard to Ply mr...th, that they had charae!trlzed as a good system of some evidence in that case, and the House adopted his objection, but on jettedss ciund t s o ttohtealelryiddeinffeeerent because me in n h f os e e taken now. Lord Gienville ob taneipal government a system w.`'..ich was not entitled to so s urged against m n a o t t o e r vi c ti f en th ce. He (Lord thu_cparocr.edit. With respect to the aree..."; t ent Lyndhurst) would read the passage, a t s confirmatory e statement he b y n sir Provisions of the Bill, the principle of the7*- us laid down had made. " Mr. Plummer, the counsel, observed that from the long C. Wetherell, might be divided into heads. It was psried Lord Balcannon had been Governor of Jamaica, be would be contended that mit e_ inn . the Bill took away the power of the King' to able to point out the consequence of this Bill to the. West Indian Pro. 'doom Lord Grenville had hereupon remarked that it was irre it ,e se _ magistrates , because he would be only empowered under t he last the nominees of the council ; and next, that in gular !el examine witnesses at their Lordships' bar who had no facts to o merely appeared to express their views and opinions i n "! i nn section but one it precluded the Crown from grant- state, but sv . ,' th'. Bill.y charter henceforward unless under the provisions of [hear, hear I]. I'sld doubt in this case the Noble Lord was perfectly e as ._ o The King, it was said, had no power whatever to correct in describing such evidence as irregular, for, as the Noble Lord t. 1 . 3. int a single magistrate ; his Majesty could neither con- had said, the House had to decide upon facts not upon prophecies I tillnore remove him ; and that the power of the Great Seal [a laugh ;] and therefore he moved, supported by Lords Eldon and Liverpool, that the next witness be called. So much for the Noble and ea u .P_P r d at the walls of corporate towns, to which it could not t h ` e Now the King would continue under this Bill to have Learned Lord's second precedent [hear, hear a Now if that Noble. man, with all his acknowledged sagacity and accuracy, could not ea , e appointment of recorder and the complete control of the with two or three days' notice find out more substantial precedents than ses '" r t s _gals jurisdiction_ of the towns, and the Crown would pos- these, what conclusion could the House come to as to the justice D era L u t ; theeame powers with respect to cities already incor- and propriety of the case? The slave trade case also called to tin m ' e n a and t. so far from this measure disabling the Crown his recollection that at the time it was brought forward, 1792, the Caller fon ltlg any charters except under its provisions, it only agent fur Barbadoes prayed to be heard viva voce at their Lordships' not Yet ' r t h e interference of the King with respect to towns bar, and his evidence was not only heard, but ordered to be printed.— s tpoyi i ncorporated. But the power given to the Crown of (hear, hear.) This fact put a final answer to his Noble and Learned that case, the provisions of this Act, by incor- Friend's opinion. Having thus disposed of the two " precedents," he Peratjt e g ' In rig w en nu i as s a , Particular place by charter, did not abridge or would proceed to speak as to the merits of the case. The preamble e•l'Presea s ith respect to towns already incorporated appeared the divers ßdillstated, defects." in the charters of divers Corporations there . Now surely this was matter of credence.— rupt • iim was ins non et exclusio alterius. Here some inter- (Zr a , re hear, ) It did not say that all Corporations were so defective, Re sudde , offered to the Noble Lord's address at the bar, but that in * d' of them, ef such ivers ehart i e e r m s, , ,, by reason "of neglect and abuses of the d u d amon n lY Paused, and looking steadfastly at some indivi- privileges of & c. &c., defects had arisen. To enable gst those at the bar, exclaimed, " Nothing so dull the House to judge whether this was the fact evidence Must be heard. as liStenin Lord, ~ th g tO a long speech. " Yes," observed the Noble If such were found to be the case, what should be done ? ins, by and OF! is something still more dull, and that is stand- gulations should be made to meet the case; but a number of indivi. I.4._listening to a seech in which you feel no inte- duals were not to be stripped of what by law they were entitled to, and ,rguinTa(tLeughter. ) The p Noble Lord then resumed : The of which they could not be deprived without being convicted of deg. to presideB advanced by counsel with respect to those directed suite . offences : Surely, however, this was not to be determines on without hearing evidence.. The Report of the Commissioners had been hi re, for. over charitable funds had really startled and alarmed . made i up from the w e h s e edence t ta . k n e ed n before th it ; surely, then, it was but of to substantiatingbeunjust and un. if . they were once admitted they would be the means of oreve re snoee n tlng all reform ; for if it could be shown that any right foundedrm, tt that those fact, shouldm maintained the opportunityatreportany person their h th e reng these charities was granted to any person, either by assertion by evidence. He could not conceiv how a na l , t ru h v yn, the public, or some pious and beneficent indivi- had ever sat in a court' of justice, or was imbued witty any p w rin n e public officer so appointed must be perennial in this ciples of justice, could maintain that a party accused should not d°llownt,l7'--( Hear, hear.) Now suppose any man had en- have the opportunity of establishing his innocence by witnesses. th e c 6'_ . with a pious and benevolent purpose, the six clerks of (Cries of hear, hear, hear.) Even if the Noble and Learned Lord's precedents had been substantiated, he (Lord Lyndhurst) should have tro ne , °Urt of Chancery, with 1001. a-year each, and when he said, look to the principle of the thing—look to the justice of the case; nn_ under forward his measure for Chancery reform, which was but the precedents had been altogether thrown over. Besides the old tl ,7_ a der the consideration of a Committee up stairs, if there charters in cpte,tion were part of the Royal Prerogative granted by the 4 , 11 :_ n LY provision in it for the purpose of abolishing ' the Royal Bounty. Ought not the House, then, to have said, " Let us look Iti Z e t Of the sums paid to these officers, he should be re- wouldto t he defects h in particular _cases, and apply an effective remedy." This tie!, known this Corporation Bill—this only case of perpetua- eonvenie a e v c e e m er e m t t isc e h n ie se f e a ss n i d te ti o ii r the ti case, without leading to public in. Legislature h would this fund to the English law ; and he should be told that o ie p ß rei . e f ared of th e d o „7nst be perpetuated, and in order to meet the views have adopted; but this ' did not e mee 'e t pr t u h d e e v n i e e e w e s l o t f b.? those who ti Main i n t 'ir , that it must not be transferred but suffered to re- this Bill. Why ? simply because this Bill was not one fo heat ) , ri ! hands of six clerks, to the end of time.. _( Hear, of Corporations, but one brought in to consolidate and strengthen a Pa n r r ty m bodi es so,,, ue . fact was, that charities had been left to corporate —(Opposition cheers.) This was a fact which no individual was so se tneti eiettmes as trustees only having a legal interest, and bl.nd as not once to perceive. The real object of bringing, this Bill for. Whet 'rtes a as trustees having a partly beneficial interest. ward at this season was with a view to the next dissolution.—(Hear, niatrati n 8 more usual than altering the trustees for the admi- hear.) Noble Lords were aware of the great struggle which had been made in another House to prevent the division of the larger towns into d ab ,. nof charities? Did not every day's - practice, every more numerous wards, whereby a more mixed return had been effected. Ras authority in the Court of Chancery, prove that nothing t l h t e wa c s o said i t a hrt n thi w s l e , v i a t s h ne a t e a r p er aly e ß n e t or h m a , d bu h t a o d ne th of principle; but rid o f t i l e eornmon, than for misconduct, or a desire to get befored e cnc y the eet , e ,! trust, persons were continually removed ? Whentheto issue for mm dividing . the g eat towns into ward e e M event, s rer of the trustees fell off , or the quorum was deft - Bill had either passed the Lords' House, or received the Royal th em 13 7 Court of Chancery was not always entitled to fill assent, clearly proved that tee whole was a party affair, Let Mr. Joseph fail ed, I!: but when the object of the charity had altogether Parkes, the keen, intelligent, active agent of that party, deny this if he spi:dieattie Court of Chancery had the power of changing the could. By their own words and deeds they were convicted. " The division of these wards," it was recommended, " should be kept Pres . „Wn of the funds, and directing them to purposes si altogether a secret for the present." Was this no party matter ? Ch ?. here were two charities, one of them Michael's 120 ,0 u n to which. funds had been left amounting to —(hear, hear, hear.) Why, the supposed triumph of that party li t , h 0 04 ; and was the talk of all their clubs, where the House of Lords, if it dared 180,000/. in the other case, to redeem Eng_ l orige e r a P tiv es from corsairs. Now, when these pirates no to assert the claims of justice, and to act upon them,. was . attacked with cam e infested the seas—when the object of the charity be- t t i he ep , arsest . calumny an abuse. Yt . •s, .th t e sole object Bill, this Bill was ha ie d a n ,l t rend m ise . me t n l t of .tf the ted I, Whig t r e s r ser hed . ließeform a t i h t was found, flight Co Pletely eetinguished, the sums thus accumulated . object; . so e Municipal the n o, and he believed were, applied to the education of Corporation sn Bill elen Zs ' brought ee la e ) '' - forward. This, if it did not complete the thi s n eeroes • is prin.. in the West Indies. Now it was precisely on party tiiumph, would be followed up by other " Reform" measures ; for b een teen n e l Ple that the Corporetion Bill proceeded. Could se said Isaac Tomkins, Esq., in his new pamphlet called "We Can't n een t a n that the persons to ;eliom charitable funds had Afford It;" and no man could better prop up a bad cause than Isaac tires oc " , would not have approved of the proposed distribu- Tomkins, Gent.—(A laugh.) Isaac Tomkins said " The same may be lik ely . these Was it not saes, of Municipal Reform, a measure of infinite use in furthering our charities ?—{ Hear, hear, hoer.) emancipation from the Tory yoke, and of the next Reform (the lowering ,Ivatah ed th at they would have wished to have !hose funds of the qualification), which must be carried, in order to complete the ''Y th at over by a fairly chosen council, and a mayor elected overthrow w,,rh of our former masters. " . This was the line of argument e 'ttrol "un til which should have a regular and effective properly made use of to authorise a departure . from all the rights of Sto epti over them.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore, the pre law of the country, which had been uniformly ad hered Y. By ' the. " In ellt 0 7 ,11 „ /%4 s, that these funds were left under the manage. to, was an individual holding grants or privileges by charter from the m'ere Corporations, as they existed when these charities Crown consideredas holding them of . the best and securest tenure, ch es granted, us well as to those which might hereafter be and the same rule of law and justice applied with equal force to corpo. that el l- Th it e consequence of this argument of counsel was, rate bodies enjoying grants or privileges under the same sort of charter. tho hat too much; but exactly in a contrary direction If an individual held property subject to a trust, he was of course bound by that trust ; and if a corporation held property by a trust, it ay e '` tl. Which those who had brought it forward would was bound by the trust, in the same manner. So when the property 11 , 'd e. °Tpo l e t at b i e o lie veel ; for it went against leaying any . money to by either individal cr orporation was not eld in trust, both the one seat y ou ns at all. Did it not follow from this argument, party and the other were equally at liberty to deal with it at their ll'll o ne Can never safely leave money to a Corporation •; for own free and uncontrolled pleasure. This was a principle of law eith er a two horns of a dilemma you are sure to fall— generals, acknowledgt d, but which, however, seemed but too little hea r y - o ne thn s , Corporation must stand - still, or the failure understood its the other House of Parliament. In a corporation eeri e he enemy altogether must inevitably ensue.—( Hear, croe in which he had been concerned as Counsel that of Derby— °f th ' e ia a s r ;) The principle of the Court of Chancery, and he had moved that a rate imposed by the Corporation be disallowed, he trustee; that . when funds were impressed with a charity, on the ground that the Corporation had sufficient funds in its pos propert.. ,e _ for its distribution might be appointed. Now, the session to cover the rate, but on that occasion, Lord Ellenborcugh, Ash •C uses It to Corporations was public property, given for with the sanction of the Court, had answered that the Corporation were not bound to apply their funds to this purpose, unless it could s for the good of the community, including the cor titrat.tzs, t e be shown that the terms of the grant which gave these funds, so ernselves—to the inhabitants of the towns over which p r 4 sec re decided. The same . rule which applied to the rights of individuals appointed. When he got that publicity once its,- decided. t equally good in the h c t aseof i } c . irp t orat t ions. He had heard a great deal it beearrrm these funds ; when the objects of them failed, or ta en s t av to , s , e vN up e poLe , not far t instance, hia . t the 113 t publieexpedient to change their administration, they were inhabitantsa. e u exr e ie f ne l y Test A m t % i a n s t slide r were t ts vire te oet. property, and disbursed for the public benefit, by peilient to pay any more tolls to the Du ' ke of Bedford for ICoventex -o.le:r.)t , b E e reform in the constitution of the municipal bodies. Garden-market, although he does own them under a charter of t i l l 'e ePith very . species of vituperative expression and offen- Charles I." The house would hardly sanction this ebullition of" ex. t . 11 . _et had been lavished on those who had sanctioned this pedicncy." Why then should it sanction the equally unjust cry of ex e epe Anever was there such an instance of ignorance or ty- pediency which was raised on the present occasion ?— ( heae, hears) Nii'tl ever h ale Who had looked at the Bill ? No lawyer The principle was exactly /he same. To some persons, a party in the he to t o l ale seen it. To whom was this language applied ? State, it might perchance seem " expedient" to remove their Lordships hose who supported the Bill in that House ; but the from a share in the . National Council.—(hear, hear, hear.) This "IY t ° Ml' o i r 419 than ich these words might be applied were nothing more was an expediency . which they could never on principle and experi ence adopt ; yet if they would successfully resist it, they must not per- I 'Verj a l the Commons of England—( Hear, hear)—in mit other steps of so-called expediency . to pass. It behoved them, for the teams Parliament assembled, and truly representing the sake of the people of Great Britain, to act as became their characters I44reisi--(1,011d cheers.) Again it was said by their Learned as gentlemen and Noblemen of the land, and altogether to set aside any ke ta er s , " that a Bill was passed, called the Reform Act. eiebi3" not ex a • . —(Cheers.) The e L ctly in what year." " Oh, yes-," continued the Corporations, the Church, the hereditary P eraee t , he were as barriers be. an d I , 0 ord, "you dO know the year well,—( Cheers)—you tween tyrannyon the one side and democracy ' on other: thes , served 1 !!)4 til 2e that instructed you,_ and those that you spoke for, at onceasacheck upon arbitrary power and democraticupon . license. b il i ot il p a u s s s e e t allt y . ou spoke to,. know well . what year it was that ' Two centuries ago they formed an opposition to kingly tyranny : now Bsie, en (Loud cheering.) And if you were to live, they were called upon to oppose a barrier to the democratic movement : , 1 11 p.,„_ , Years, but seventy times seven years, after the let them do their duty; let them consider that if Aldermen were suf. neer ea l e e. a, you will reflect (some of you at least) with a fered to be extinguished with imp unity, Peers might come down next. —(Hear, hear.) He had another objection to this Bill, namely, that it `g til e r ,17!,,t0 the last hour of your existence, on the passing , l° T sselorm Act in the year 1832."--(Great cheering.) transferred the prerogative of creating these Corporations from the King to the . House of . Commons—(Hear, hear)—and that wh:re a Cor. , 11 , 4 4 p, 4 . -ea 'Ned Counsel said, " I 'speak not as an advocate, but perateni experienced inconveniences from the charter conferred upon the we' r vate ge .l aleman I assert that I have not laid before evou it, it was not left competent in the Crown, as heretofore, to make other i 4 a lloeid b s e t p sa arts 0: the , case, on ' the great principle that time provisions for it. Objections were made to the system of self-election / on e v cd."---o.aughter.) 'Now, at the risk of infring- in Corporations; there might be disadvantages attending this system, 04ailet, Lahr great priiejole," I must e allowed to say, that .., u4sei addresses the life of me, no doubt, but every system had some disadvantage ; and if the disad. coceive by what right the Learned vantage :Mending this particular system were felt as very heavy, how te . eti ernaT, your Lordships' have appointed auditors, If, also, corn. in the capacity of a private easy would it have been to tta ettee ey " of e -- - , ( Hear, hear.) That, i taint had been made, though this was not the case, that justice must say, was an inad- P ho d he couldtne Learned Counsel he was ill administered in . . Corporations, how simple would have been was 4, ere as Counsel, Wea or 1 be here only as Counsel.—(Loud el‘eers*) if , the remedy, in determining that in no case should Quarter ees. sions be held where there was no RecorHear, hear, hear.) boa e,. , le had defend not made the best of his case, he, if he : w ere When the Reform Bill passed through the House of Commons n uernnd kgold say, that he would takeany Counsel but - a ' - eini on z en • . him isee was considerable discussion whether the rights of the freemen t tis ,Leg ene , other occasion. But the fact was, that those, li . g . spats, as the Attorney.Gcueral of the present Government t i ti lne ss as u ...e,. Counsel had done their duty. They knew theirtime—should be pre,ervtel. The concession was ' called them at the L a TtS, end r o l l : as any men in the profession—none more se- at bust made, as a conc ili a ti on , ee the Ministers of the Crown themselves Wh ich any tL r , e more astute, and he never knew them to kee stated to their Lordships' Hous • and as ail f r l eh ' lu ng that was either in th • heads their • • " -another measure of a si. . their or briefs the Bill. ']' hey did pass that Bill, and now luelucem nt to them to pass e.,-orn the stated, could benefit their clients. One extract more miler description—a measure of a/ unicipal Reform—was proposed 11i a ti le stot a e del_r n es . s of one of the Learned Counsel—" How they covertly and secretly.—(Cheers.) Was theft' ever a political ma by ri.°llt e ta such things, except in the presence of persons nanceuvre more base than this PHe would use pie, character, and FPOstr4Fot-P ? not a Whig measure iis its very principle, t l tli epe e i ts li-en, or under the influence of faction !. or misled What was the foundation of the pr sent me sure?! Say ex vcred •,', (10 not know." This was stated of speeches (Cheer,,,) ,Pres s i e '-'Y those in the otl 11 ' teis . e of Perlis . Parliament, viewfor what they would upon the subject, torture it as ninell AS they pleased, a .PPPer earl's —was it ` ettreeel a wish to remodel ler 0 h ,„.9.,g them to flue our Institutions, with a of the measure was put it in every possible shape, discuss it as they chose, the fetlinifition the Report of the Commissioners. rhe King's le control of the people.—(Hear " , but hear. e ) a te r It 'WaS said i ii ead y ' to ' on the part of the Corporations, „ S u p r eLch na cr 1833 pointed to the Report as the rerouted-work of the Mea step was taken or attempted until that Report was upon their e • e ndly i f • - a ccent reform rifle Bill itself was taken opt Qf 10. 3 4nd_ .... , a ~ •,, provided it comes to us from a Lordship,' table—the very preamble o ~,,e : i ; . 11 ,,, _aret not are quite ready to sacrifice our - the Report; aid when the Bill was introduced its the other blouse of "el e lee i t ' i n v _ ot a farthing for the property or privileges Parliament. the Noble Lord who proposed it entered at large into '''enjoyed since the days of Edgar and Alfred, by ali the tettle.tattle of the li,eport, and made it the very foundation of 4 THE SUN, _CONDON, TUESDAY, -:4-vg-usT 4, 1835. ' s ar measatie. Now, let him ask their Lordships as legislators,, as men Fit c ja - diedally in their charecteri a:, Peers of the realm, if Ilea r called upon to - deprive men of their franchise, their pro,) rty, and their pecuniary rights, upon the foundation of a R emrt, and upon the evidence collected by them, what it was they ought to require ? Would not their just insp.:Mee naturally be d:rected to the Commissioners themselves ? Would they not say, " Have we seen them in public acting in high stations, so as to enable us to forM a correct judgment of their discretion, their impartiality, their fortune, or their sound judgment ? Now, he asked their Lordships, what individual among them know anything of the Coriemis_ sinners who had made this Report, or whether there was one Noble Lord in twenty who had heard the name of any one of them pronounced, until he saw the Report on thetable.—(Hear, hear.) He himself knew some_ thing of these Commissioners, and the result of his knowledge of them he would soon communicate to their Lordships. He had already said, that in the appointment of commissioners they required that they should be free from all imputation or suspicion of partiality or party motives. If a committee were appointed in the Commons—in the olden time at least—to investigate any trifling matter, it would be matter of reproach to the par'y propesing it, if he did not select a mixed committee, corn. posed fairly of men of both sides of the House. Now let him direct their attention to the Report, and to the Commissioners themselves. Several of these gentlemen he knew, and he begged to say that in the obse rva ti ons he was about to make, he meant not to the slightest degree to reflect on their private character or conduct ; he abutted to them merely as party men. The first name he found on :the list was Sir John Black burn& I need not describe him; every body knows that he is a firm, a determined, uncompromising, and unflinching Whi p. lie is at the head of the Commission, and this is his character—a very respectable man notwithstanding.—(Cheers.) The next was George Long —a very respectable man—went the same circuit with myself—hut a Whig, tio.—(Cheers and laughter.) Then we have Sampson Au gustus Rumbell, a Whig and something more.—(Cheers and laughter.) George Hutton Wilkinson, whom I are less acquainted with ; but a Whig also, and something more. Thomas Jefferson Hogg —my Noble and Learned Friend, I am sure, Will vouch for Mr. Hogg as having al ways been considered at least a Whig.—(Cheers and laughter.) Pere. grine Bingham—Whig again, my Lords, and something more.— (Laughter.) David Jardine—determined Whig. John Elliott Drink water—strongly WhigeL(Renewed laughter.). Thomas Flower Ellis_a follower, I believe, of my Noble Friend: a Whig, I think he will not deny; Idu not say he is more. James Booth—Whig. Henry Roscoe —I have the honour of knowing—honourable man —northern circuit— decidedly Whig.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Charles Austin, able man— but I should say rather mote than a Whig : I know him well, and a eery respectable man he is. Edward Rushtnn—Whig and Snore.— (Cheers and a laugh.) Alexander Edward Cockburn—a Whig, and more. John Buckle—a Whig, and more. Daniel Maude —very re spectable man—goes the northern circuit; but, as my Noble and Learned. Friend knows--strongly, strongly Whig.—(A laugh.) John Gambier—a gentleman who, I believe, did not sign the Re port—strongly Whig. And last of all—though I must not, on refiec. tion, say least either, for there is one other very important personage behind, Sir Francis Palgrave—not a Whig. Nineteen Commissioners who are Whigs, my Lords, and one who is not a Whig, but who has written on'the subject of Corporate Reform, and is a good deal disposed against existing Corporations.—(Cheers.) Last of all, among these gentlemen, comes the Secretary, a friend of my Noble and Learned Friend's again —Mr. Joseph Parkes, Secretary to the Political Union— (Cheers)—Secretary of the Birmingham Union, Secretary to this Corn mission, and Secretary to the divided Commission, giving instructions for the others to proceed upon—Mr. Joseph Parkes.—(Cheers.) Now, I ask your Lordships, would you dispose of the most trifling pecuniary interest, where a,question of party ives concerned, On a tribunal so con stitu: ed ? I would appeal with confidence to my Noble and Learned Friend, if he were not sitting here as a party-man, he would ridicule the idea ;he would laugh it to scorn. Would to God, my Lords, I had my Nieble and Learned Friend's power cf ridicule and sarcasm ! How he would " show up" the twenty ! How Mr. Blackburne would 'figure as the prominent character in the procession, and how admirably would the rear be brought up by his friend, Mr. Joseph Parkes.— (Cheers and laughter.) We have not even the advantage of the joint judgment of the twenty, my Lords, whatever that might be worth, as two Commissioners, or in some instances only one, is sent to make inquiries and collect evidence. His Report is transmitted to the Committee in town, and they, acting on chat Report, make their generel Report —a very extraordinary mode of proceeding, I must say.—(Cheers.) I ask your Lordships if I were sent down to a town divided into two parties —and in what country town are there not two parties ?—lf I, holding the King's seal in my hand, declared that I came down there to receive complaints, do you think I should not in any place, however well regu lated or well governed, have abundance of evidence to take clown, from which I could draw up a plausible report ? But, my Lords, what is it we have here ? We have no evidence.—(cheers.) We have only the conclusions which these gentlemen theik proper to draw from the evi dence, not the conclusions of twenty, but the conclusion of the one or two individuals in each particular place. My Lords, is not this fact in itself sufficient to destroy the Report —(renewed cheers.) I say, my Lords, we have not had the evidencelaid before us. On a former occasion I asked the Noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government, whether he had any objection to lay that evidence upon the table ? The Noble Viscount goes down to the bar to consult his friend Mr. Joseph l'arkes, or somebody else, and immediately returning, says, " No; the evidence is not in a fit state to be produced, and I shall not lay it on the table of the house"—(cheers.) What, my Lords! On the decision of these twenty party-men, appointed for party objects, and receiving their pay from the parties appointing them, sent down to collect evidence and draw their own conclusions therefrom—shall we deprive men of their rights and property, without even seeing the evidence on which they proceeded ?—(cheers.) He remembered a case decided by Sir Samuel Romtlly, the circumstances of which, by analogy, were not inapplicable to the pres.nt case. A boy who had found a diamond ring, took it to a jeweller, and asked him what he would give. him for it ? The jeweller took cut the diamond, and returned the .boy the ring, saying, " It is of no value; I'll give you a shilling for it, if you like." The boy took some legal advice upon the subject, brought an action, and a notice was served on the jeweller to produce the diamond on the trial, in order that evi dence might be given of its value. No; he would not do that. What said the Learned Judge? Why, that the jury must presume the fact; and that, as the jeweller declined to produce the atone, their best rule would be to give as the amount of damages the price of the finest and dearest jewel that could be placed in the empty socket ; and the jury awarded damages accordingly. So it must be with the Noble Viscount. If he refused to produce evidence which he had caused to be taken, and ought to lay before the House, he must be content to have it presumed that its contents were most un fisvou 'able to himself. What had been the practice with reference to other commissions ? His noble and learned friend knew very well that in the case of the Chancery Commission to which he had himself adverted, the evidence was printed, to enable those who had to consider the subject to draw their own conclusions—though that was, perhaps, an instance in which few persons would have objected to the commissioners forming their own. And yet in the present case, here were twenty persons drawing whatever conclusions they pleased, and the House without evidence was called upon to act on the faith of their representations. Was ever anything so monstrous? Was ever such a proposition addressed to an assembly of reasonable men —addressed, too, by a judge of transcendent power, who had held the Great Seal for a series of four years—who administered justice occa. aiona:ly in that place, but on whose judgment on a question of law, when it became a political one, he set little value, much as he might respect it when delivered in a court of justice.—(Cheers.) That which answered the purpose of the Noble Viscount and his Noble and Learned Friend, the Commissioners had produced—that which did not promote their ob_ jest, they had discreetly withheld.—(Here considerable amusement was create by Lord Brougham's referring to a blue volume of most ponde rous appearance.) Oh, the volume his Noble and Learned Friend was so ostentatiously producing, would not answer his purpose. It was a judicious selection, perhaps, given him by his friend Mr. Joseph Parkes. —(Cheers and a laugh.) His Noble and Learned Friend had treated the objection that the Corporation Commission wad illegal as monstrous and absurd; but he had spent half an hour, nevertheless, in combating a case on which he (Lord Lyndhurst) had openly toad him he placed not the slightest reliance whatever. The present Chief Baron gave it as his opinion, that the Commission was illegal. A distinct and separate opi nion to that effect was given to the towti.clerk of Leicester. He aced upon that opinion, and refused to produce another document. The town clerk had a little communication with London. The late Soli. citor-General, Sir William Follett, was consulted, and he gave a similar opinion—namely, that the Commission was illegal. Lord BROUGHA 31—I beg your pardon.—(Cheers, and cries of "Order.") I beg your pardon—that it was not compulsory upon him to attend.—(Gweat cheering.) Lord LYNDHURST-1 hat it was mere waste paper. That was the opinion. I will come to that in a moment. Now, I know that a Noble and Learned Lord, who presided for five and twenty years it l' legal injustice the magistrates - were ae.; nitt s ed— , e s r'ecue to know li unether the by the Com miss I .s ioners them , elves [cheers). He eh ou l it - perversion of the evidence in the case of Alderman Harper was wilf u l or accidental. Ile had seen the evidence; there was .7111. one indivi dual to whom it teal apply;-ha was examined, the 6, - 'dence was taken down by a short-hand writer, and was as clear and dts!ince as possible. The Duke of Newcastle was the individual who procured the place referred to in the evidence; it was alleged, and counsel at the bar was ready to prove it, that Lord Fitzwilliam was the person whose interest was employed on the occasion; end the individual for whom Mr. Harper voted was Mr. Crump. Now, when they found such errors as these, they were -surely entitled to ask for further evidence [hear, hear tj. Could they safely rely on the conclusions of Commissioners who were capable of committing such gross blunders [cheer-I? Then as to Mr. Crump, it was stated that he was in the enjoyment of a pension which he received from the 'Duke of Newcastle. How stood the fact ? Why that he had actually been dead many years, and that his (Lord Lyndhurst's) Noble Friend the Duke of Newcastle had granted the pension in question to him as a charity many years before. The Noble and Leaned Lord then referred to two corporations adverte i to in the Commissioners' Report, the name of the first we could not catch; but the substance of the charge war, that the Commissioners, with reference to it, had examined only e itnerses who had been engaged in a Chancery suit against the corporation, in which they had been defeated, and re fused to take down the replies, explanations, and denials of the deputy steward. The second case was that of Coventry, in which the Commis. sinners had quoted the authority of an anonymous solicitor in diff eren t parts of their Report, as if it had been the testimony of several indiyi. duals instead of one and the same person ; it appearing on inquiry th a t they raided to an individual formerly in the office of the town-clerk wh o had been dismissed from his situation for expressing a wish to see th e churches pulled down, and the fragments broken up to inacad.: :so the roads with. Upon this evidence, then, their LCirelshipe Were to rob men of their" franchise without trial [Opposition chest's]; rob them of their property—not merely corporate pllipsrty, but p roperty belonging to them as individual memb ers of the Corporation. Let their Lordships mark this efthct of this Bill. many freemen had rights of commons for their llves, and for thei r sans, grandsons, and d seendants for all time. It was a quasi foe ; an d t h e only qualificatio n required was, that each in his turn should t a k e up hi s freedom. Now what did this Bill do ? It said to the freemen, " lou shall en j oy it for your life; and your son, if now born, shall en j oy i t after you, but it shall not go any further." Was that an act of justice? .All this wa s argued in the House of Commons in a most maste r ly mariner by Sir William Follett, but it was addresetsd to insensible oars. They were going to reduce these corporetions to mere democracies—to so many re publics—lnstead of having them as rnoilols of the constitution of the country. And for what purpose, my Lords, is this to be done ? Why that they may serve as models for a change in that constitution itself. (Opposition cheers.) My Lords, it will come to that. If you sufFer this Bill to pass in its present shape, you can make no defence for the Church, no defence for your own privileges, but by one step after ano ther all must go.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) If you violate corpo rare rights, you must then violate the property of the Church. It is ins. possible for you to stop. I therefore call upon, my Lords, to pause —to consider well.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Do notdo anythinglike an act of injustice, and thcn you are safe. The Noble and Lear ned Lord then adverted to the characters of the electors and the elected in the new corpo. rations. The electors were to be householders. If their Lordships looked at the list, they would find that persons occupying under 101. were twice the number of those above that amount; and that inferior classes of persons were always of the movement party. Thus the inteili. gent and respectable classes would be swamped by the great mass of the lower classes. His Noble and Learned Friend had said that this state of things existed in other countries. True; but then there were coun tervailing impediments. But there was no check provided by this Bill; these persons were to be treated as the absolute council ; for as mem. bees of the council, no qualification was required. Not only so, but one third of these were to go out every year ; they would therefore be com pelled to submit to pledges, and to dictations of every kind by their eiectors. Proofs existed of this system in the case of Members of the House of Commons, where the constituency was of a higher character, and the persons to be operated upon also of a higher character. Vs hat, then, could their Lordships expect from a municipal body so composed ? The same observations applied to the mayor. Was ever such a consti. tuition of a Government formed to administer the affairs of a great peo. pie? He would appeal to the wisdom and discretion of his noble and learned friend (L rd Brougham.) He had seen the Bill prepared by his noble and learne 1 friend, and what did he propose ? The electors were to be ten-pound householders; the council were to have a qualification of a thousand pounds, and the mayor was also to have a similar qualification. That was two years ago ; but mark how they had advanced in the career of reform since that period. In I the Bill of his Noble and Learned Friend he provided for a race of al. dermen to be appointed for life—(great Opposition cheering.) In fact, his Noble and Learned Friend's corporation was formed upon the model of many corporations existing in this kingdom. He would then ape peal to his Noble and Learned Friend, excited as he might be now, but sober as he was then—(Laughter)—and ask him whether he must not agree, at all events, that the present measure should be altered to the extent of making it correspond with his own measure of two years ago ? But again, look at the powers to be given to the town council. They would possess all political influence, and would have the dispensa tion of Church patronage. It was said that Dissenters were members of corporations already. True; but no evil had yet arisen ; but here they were courting evil. The power of granting licenses had been as signed as a source of jobbing with magistrates ; but what jobbing would there not be if this Bill should pass? Then the magistrates were to be nominated. The Noble Viscount had said that the Crown had not any power now to appoint these borough magistrates; but then, by the form of the charters, the matter was so arranged that, of necessity, persons of respectability were alone appointed. The council, too, were to have the whole power and direction of the police; the police were to be under the direction and dictation of the lowest classes ; those upon whom the police were to act were themselves to choose the police. These were great evils. His noble and learned friend well knew the care, caution, and accurate inquiry that took place in the Court of Chancery before new trustees were allowed to be appointed. But who were the trustees to be here appointed ? Persons without any qualifi cation, to be appointed by the town council; giving no security for their conduct, or to satisfy them that they might not be persons of the lowest description. Could anything be so monstrous, so absurd, and unjust ? Then, again, the town council were to have the power to make rates. Never was a thing so monstrous. These are the fea tures of the Bill: Are your Lerdships prepared to pass it without evidence? Do you not see, and agree with-me, that under pretence to pass a Bill to regulate Corporations, it is a party job —(Loud Opposition cheers.) It is brought forward for party purposes, to supply the defi ciencies of the Reform Bill, to destroy the Conservative interest in this and the other House of Parliament, in order, for a shiest time—and, try Lords, it will be but a short time—(Opposition cheers'—that the Whigs may triumph over them.—(Cheers.) My Lords, I agree that we oug it to hear witnesses at the bar, and I shall therefore support ti amendment Lord BROUGHAM rose to explain; but was so much interrupted by cries of " Spoke," that we could not distinctly hear the points to which his Lordship's explanation referred:- One word as to his Bill : he did bring it in; but when he did so, he stated that there were two points upon which he had great doubts ; one was the appointment of aldermen for life; and the other, the qualification of householders. A conversation then took place between Lord LYNDHURST, Lord Mote:nem, and Lord WHARNCLIFFE, but we could not catch the pur port of it. The Earl of RADNOR. thaught that the real question before their Lordships was, whether evidence should be heard at the bar of the House. The speech of the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) clearly w. ,s for throwing the Bill out altogether. But taking the view which he did of the subject, he should not go into a discussion of the provisions of the Bill. Nor would ne enter into a discussion as to th e merits or demerits of the Commissioners, a point on which the Noble and Learned Lord appeared to have more information than himself; but from the credit a hich the Noble and Learned Lord gave to some of those gentlemen, in the latter part of his speech, he could not think their conduct had been altogether so outrageous as it had been described. With respect to the claim that evidence should be heard, it might be all very well-for Counsel to make that claim, but he believed that when they made it they did not expect that it would be complied with, for they must have been aware that on a former night, the general under standing was that evidence should not be taken, and that counsel should be heard at the bar simply on the principle of the Bill, and not in rela tion to the facts alleged by the Report.—(hear, hear!) Much hail been said of the strong allegations of counsel, and of their professions of readiness to prove these allegations by witnesses. Though not a professional man himself, he however knew enough of professional practice not to place the most implicit reliance on these kind of averments made by counsel, who, when they believe d they would net be called on to prove their case, frequeetly made statements which they would find it very difficult, legally, to substantiate. Sir Charles Wetherell and Mr. Knight spoke, as all Counsel speak, from their briefs, and the statements made by them we: not their statements, but the statements of the town clerks, the statements of the parties who were peen Early interested in opposing this me asure. — (H ear, hear.) But it had been urged that that was in itself a reason for caking witnesses, it, order that the house might ascertain whether their averments were true or not—(Opposition cheeers.) For his part, he could not admit the force of that argument, and the reason was obvious. This Bill was not founded upon the Report ; it was not founded upon any of the par. ticular statements at which these town clerks cavilled; but it was founded, as the Bill for reforming the Representation of the people was founded, upon the notoriety of the fact that such a Reform was neses sary.—(llear, hear.) That Corporation Reform was requisite nobody denied. It had been admitted by the Noble Lord who moved the Amendment ; it had been admitted a few nights since, if he remem. bered rightly, by the Noble Duke opposite (Wellington, we believe); it had been admitted by the Noble Earl who spoke from tire lower benches ( Winchilsea) ; it had been admitted by the Noble and Learned Lord who spoke last; and it had finally been admitted even by the Counsel at the bar. Sir C. Wetherell had allowed that, in the instance of Bristol, with which he was connected, some Reeorm was n, cease, y. This, their Lordships would remark, came from this gentleman's own per. sonal knowledge ; he was not then speaking from his brief, and yet he (Lord Radnor) doubted whether the Corporation of Bri-tol would give quite so ready an assent to their Recorder's proposition as that gentle. man might imagine. Mr. Knight had stated, on the part of the Cor. ',orations generally, that he did not believe they wonld object to some reform ; an admission which he (Lord Radnor) attributed, however, not to any love or desire for Reform, but which he rather considered to be forced from them by what they could not but perceive was the general feeling, not only of the public generally, but even of their Lord. ships. Indeed it was now quite surprising to find that everybody was a Corporation Reformer, though it might peilieps be a matter of some curiosity to inquire how it was that, with all this great love for muni cipal reform, not a word on the subject ever escaped the Corporations till this Bill was brought before Parliament. But then the Corpora. tions, though they did not object to Reform, objected to the manner in which this Bill proposed to accomplish it. Any defects in the ex. isting system could, it was said, be remedied by the Crown granting new charters, to contain provisions for ,that purpose. But there were two parties to that bargain. Before the Crown could grant new char ters, they most first of all prevail on 200 or 300 corporations to sur. render their 01,1 ones. What success wound be likely to attend such an attempt as this, needed not be told.—.(hear, hear I) Then, as to the bugbear of depriving corporations of the r property, it might be ima gined, from the outcry raised on this point, that the property be. longed to the members of corporations for their own personal, indivi dual benefit; whereas they only he'd the property as trustees for others: they held it, to be applied to certain purposes. The new corpora. tions would, under this Bill, hold the same property; upon the Fame trusts; and the property would be approprieted to the same purposes, and expended in promoting the same object as heretofore. He did not think that these apprehensions were seriously entertained crest by those Who put them forth. If the Noble and Learned Lord opposite had regarded this Bill with so serious an alarm as the earlier part of his speech indicated, he did not think that Noble and Learned Lord would have treated the matter as he afterwards did. Indeed, if the Bill deserved the character which he gave of it, the Noble and Learned Lord, and those who took the same view, were imperatively hound to reject tlsei Bill at once, and absolutely, instead of tam. tiering with well grave dangers, as they were doing by the course they had now adopted. In reference to the statement made by the Noble and Leaned Lord, that the Corporation Commissioners had transcribed the report of the Commissioners of Chat Rice till they came to a compli ment to the Corporation, he believed, though lie had heard the elate. went before, that it was erroneous ; fee hg pt,yll appiled to their Ler& hLaoC:rdm beenhmt4l ships' librarian for the Renert oeilie Chalets , Commissioners in Coventry, rtnd that Gentleman, alter a search, had acquainted him that the e s l s tl ii re n : e fs: r t s r, ,i‘irlet h ecld a st d ti ovoefiiiomtaas White'snrb y p a e ic r st t phe c tl d etrnetli t o ya, n i4latn• C tst o ledc v ilo e : l f i ,toc t i rrynfqttrrhaymet, exclusive y: lc übh heh, been much abused by the corporation for their own prieete benefit, and that statedN Charit y bNoble the eligaity benefit of freemen, bet fbr purposes which were general to the iota. bitants of the city, 'Were the aftleirs of these corporations likely to be better managed by trust.wert4y people elects: by these who had the best I the Court of Chancery, and with whom I conversed upon the subject, expressed his decided opinion to me that the Commission was illegal. You cannot enforce it ; you have no right to enforce it. If I had no other ground on which to rest, I would put my finger on the passage from which my Noble and Learned Friend flinched ; because I marked his reading closely, and when he came to the word " deeds," he omitted it.—(Cheers ) Lord I3ROUGHAM—Because I never read the Commi , sion.— (Lend Cheers, and cries of " Order.") No, nu. I really must be allowed to say that 1 never read the Commission. I merely referred to the Commission of 1830. (Cheers.) Lord LYNDHURST—You compared the one with the other. Lord BROUGHAM—I never--(Loud cheers, and cries of "Order ") I am sure my Noble and Learned Friend does riot wish to misrepresent me. I never read the words of the Commission.—(Cheers.) Lord LYNDHURS T-1f my Noble and Learned Friend says so, I withdraw the observation. Lora BROUGHAM—I assure you I did not. Lord LYNDHURST—Very well, then, I withdraw the observation at once. Of this lam certain, that no person, no individual, no corpo. ration can be bound or compelled by that commission. What are the, terms of the instrument ? It confers upon the commission " Full power and authority to cause all and singular the officers belonging to the said corporations to bring and produce upon oath before you, or any one or more of you, all and singular charters, rolls, records, orders, deeds," and other instruments in their posse..sion. My Lords, the thing cannot be done. The King can give no person full power and autho rity to demand any man, or body of men, to produce the title.deeds belonging to him or them. It cannot be done even by the Court of Chancery, unless a case is made out; a bill must previously be filed, stating that a particular estate is held in trust. This bill the party in possession of the estate answers; and unless he admits, in his answer, that the estate is held in trust he cannot be required to produce the deed If we are told that without any proceeding in a court of justice, the King can confer full power and authority upon a commission to require persons to produce deeds=:.(liere some interruption from Lord Brougham, which did not reach us, occasioned considerable confirsion and loud cries of " Order")—all I can say is, my Lords, that I deny any such right in the Crown. My Noble and Learned Friend has alluded to an instrument which passed the Great Seal when I wax in office. There Is no mention of " deeds" in that instrument. It refers to " all re ceipts, documents, papers, and writings." Lord BROUGHAM—Other writings.—(Order, order.) Lord LYNDHURST—Papers and " other writings." Well, my No ble and Learned Friend full well knows that these words, in legal con. struction, mean papers and other writings of a similar nature and c!ra. racter.—(Cheers.) I entertain the highest respect for my Noble and Learned Friend, and do not mean for one moment to contend that he is in the wrong. He is a man of great learning, and has had full as much experience, and has laboured quite as hard : lam bound to defer to his opinion, but he will at least allow me to retain my own.—(Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to observe that the Commissioners had stated that in a great majority of the towns they visited there existed a feeling of dissatisfaction with the existing Corporations. It afterwards turned out that out of 100 cases, this dfssatisfaction existed in only 30 or 40 : and even in them it was founded upon particular allegations and representations, which, when they came to be investigated, were disco vered to be utterly unfounded.—(clfeers.) So much for the general dis. satisfaction. Then as to the management of their revenues, there was a general charge in the first instance which afterwards dwindled down to three or four cases, and it was rernarkab'e that in the case to which his noble, and learned friend had adverted—the borough of Tiverton —it had a popular corporation—there was greater mismanagement than in almost any other case.—(hear, hear.) It was the same in the corporation of Berwick, with which the noble and learned lord was well acquainted; and it turned out upon inquiry that the c h arg e of p l ip ! .. wepint.did not so much apply to Use close self-elected Corporations as to !hose in tyhich the elpetion of the Corporate Body was especially popular. Then as to the administration e; justice, his NoWp grid yearned Friend had argued with considerable sarcasm that wricp anything wrong or improper connected with the administra. Cop of justice came to light, it yonnrally hat; reference to corporation jcetice and pot to county justice. i,,Tew the result of his (Ford l,ynd horst/g) experience on the bench was that the majority of emnplaints of this nature were against county magistrates, and on looking to the dcetnieretitS bed the Houae, he Pound that In almost every ease of al. is no t ob sued that o had all hey would ch a foe.; 0 answer'• he Cro w' tsals ; be' )f King's it he that possibli But if eir Lord- Allow' Counsel to alloy/ Learned to PlY ?lymouth ,dy . ; and ion to a urpose of rporatioa !et of 01° however , outh Iva! he greas Mon had , port, in ord had tight be jell Wag !position la news- igsby, a wk, bad th soma that he Its, and ared the )gether- circww - 1 sworn issioner fled to , stated ft to :!, S voted IL wa Tas hij tri! interest in seeing that 'they. Properly perfarined their duty, Cr by sef.ele7ted and irresponsible persons - 2' He believed that throughout the metropolis it had been found triat the afrairs of parishes had been much better managed by vestries elected tty the rate.payers of a parish at tare, than by the old select vestries, which were for the most part self elected bodies.. In the Com.i.on Council of the city of London, the elections were annual; and he believed from all that he had had heard, that the affairs of that corporation were extremely well managed. In Bristol there were certain boards which were elected by the rate-payers at large. Agaiet, in Liverpool, the rates were levied by commissioners elected generally by the rate. payers, and no complaints had ever been made as to the made in which these trusts were managed. No qualification, that he had ever heard of, was required in any of these select bodies, and no complaints wc:re ever made. In all the Corporations that he was acquainted with, th. , oifiers were elected annually; if they behaved well, they were slue to be re elected. His Learned Friend S;r Charles Wetherell might, under the r,pration of this Bill, be knocked out of the recordership that he hell, as well probably as himself; but he should not regret it if he were, be cause he did not think that .it was fit that a person not professionally educated should be anowel to serve that office. He believed that he had not given much dissa•isfaction to those interesed ; but he did not think that any person should be alowed to administer justice, and above all, in cases of life and death, who had not received a learned edue:dion. His main object in rising to address their Lordships, was to express his surprise at the language used by the Noble and Learned Lord opiiosite. If the Noble and Learned Lord did entertain such recline. expressed, he should not attoalpt to threw out . 1 . - - calling ovidoace to the bar, taut .. Lord W Li. A R IT `— had as he ha. ...: JAI by a sidewied, ii unce h.tve proposed that it be rejected .... . i.., 1 FFE remarked that the Noble Earl ' •-._. stated that his Noble and Learned Friend wished to de feat the Bill by delay. He, however, denied that any such in tention was entertained by Peers on that'side the House. An that they desired was to see justice done—( Hear, hear)—and that the persons against whom the most serious. charges had been brought, should have an opportunity of defending them selves.—( Hear, hear.) He sincerely believed that the only object of the motion of his Noble la; was to hear whether the evidence to be adduced at the bar would bear out the alle gations contained in the petitions presented in contradiction to the assertions contained in the Reports of the Commis sioners.—( Hear, hear.) When the subject was first intro duced, it was met with the objection that the Legislature had not sufficient evidence to proceed upon, and in consequence of this the Commission was issued and evidence was examined, and thus a delay of twelve months was interposed. It was said that the Bill did not rest on the Report of the Commis sioners, but. it even quoted some of the words of the Report. The Noble Lord, however, notwithstanding this, said that they had nothing to do with the Report. If the Bill was not founded on the Report, on what did it rest? If it was not founded on the Report, what had been the use of issuing the Commission ? If it was founded on the Report, why not examine evidence to confirm or contradict the allegations contained in it, and which had been copied into the preamble of the Bill. It was in consequence of an address to the Crown that a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the state of Municipal Corporations, and the Report emanated from the persons appointed as Commissioners. Why was it that the Report was brought down to that House, if they were not to rely upon it? And yet the Noble VisMiit had said that he did not call upon their Lordships to do so. By every prin ciple of consistency they were bound to refer to the labours of these Commissioners, and *hat did they find? The Com missioners brought certain charges against COrporations, and on the assumption of which this measure was founded, and he contended that it was the duty of the House of Lords to I examine witnesses, to see whether the accusations that had I been made were true or false. The Noble Viscount had referred to three instances of mismanagement in the affairs of Corporations —namely, those of Derby, Leicester, and Nottingham; two of them were said to be Liberal bodies, and the other being a Conservative. The result of the Com missioner's inquiry was, that many persons in these towns were discontented, and that therefore the Corporations were corrupt. He contended that they were not justified in as suming the inference until after they had heard evidence at the bar of their Lordships' House. . He did not deny that great discontent might prevail in many of these towns, but this was not necessarily the consequence of the existence of great abuses The Crown possessed the right of giving new charters ; but Parliament was now called upon not only to set aside any particular rights of existing corporations, and to give new privileges, but to revoke all existing charters for these towns, and to put their municipal government on a different footing than had hitherto been acted on.—( Hear, hear.) In point of fact it was interfering with the prerogative of the Crown, and was acting on a revolutionary principle. It was taking away the rights belonging to one branch of the Legis lature, and disposing of them in a different manner.—( Hear.) The Corporations said that the Commissioners accused them of certain offences, and that such charges were unfounded, and they offered to disprove them. He could not believe that the result of the present motion would be a refusal on the part of the House to hear such evidence. It had been said that the statements of lawyers were to be received with hesitation, as they were apt to exaggerate the merits of the case they espoused.. It appeared to him that the Commissioners were open to similar charges that had been brought against the lawyers. They were lawyers, and he believed that their labours would not bear the test of examination ; and, cer tainly, after what had taken place, he looked with great suspi cion at their Reports. No one would deny that nineteen out of twenty of the Commissioners were pattisans.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He believed that at least that number of them were Whigs.—( Hear, bear, hear.) It was well known that the Secretary of the Commissioners had been the Se cretary of the Birmingham Political Union.—L Lord Mel bourne observed across the table that it wa , ... not the case.] He had always understood so, but probably his Noble Friend knew better than himself on the subject. He should like, however, before ho proceeded to legislate, to know how far the chsr ges brought against corporations were founded in truth. He knew that it would be said cut of doors, if their Lordships assented to his motion for hearing evidence at the bar, that they did so for the purpose of interposing delay ; but he denied, as a man of honour, that he supported the motion on any such grond, or that it was founded on fact. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would very shortly state the grounds which induced him to Oppeee Ole motion. He was convinced, whatever might be the intention of Noble Lords opposite, that if it were sanctioned, it would be equivalent to the destruction of the measure under consideration.—( Hear.) He did not mean to contradict the assertions of the Noble Lords as to their intentions, when they stated that they were not unwilling to promote the reform of municipal corpora tions ; but he could not help observing, that in their eagerness to put an end to abuses --that in their anxiety to forward the remedies for the evils they admitted to exist in the present corporations—they were likely to stifle the measure in their embraces.---( Hear, hear.) He was conv i nce d , whatever might be Noble Lords intentions, that if they sanctioned this proposition, they would be guilty of preventing the sue- CCs, of this measure, the object of which was to supply those defects, and remedy those abuses, which were admitted by every one of their Lordships to exist in those Corporations, and which were admitted to exist even by the Learned Gen tlemen who had appeared at the bar.--( Hear, hear, from a Noble Lord.) He was glad that there was only one Member of their Lordships' House who entertained a contrary opinion. He believed that he was justified in stating, that there was a prevailing feeling throughout the country in favour of this measure: And in the other House, where there was an Op position formidable for its talents and the experience of its leaders, as well as for its numbers, what was the conduct pur sued with regard to this Bill, which was to confiscate, as they had been told, the rights and privileges of Corporations ? ( Hear ' hear.) He could not h e l p contrasting the language used by the Noble and Learned Lord, with respect to this Bill, with the conduct manifested elsewhere by the Opposition with respect to it.--( Cheers.) This Bill might be as detestable in its object, and as unconstitutional in its character, as it had bee e described to be; yet it had not been impeded in the: other House on any such ground ; it had not even beer, opposed in its principle in any one stage of its progress through that place. Cheers.) He was glad to hear from the Noble Lord op posite, a declaration that the priuttAe of self-election was the cause of the prevalence of the abuses which existed in Corpo rations. On this principle, then, it appeared they all agreed; and it might almost be assumed that their object in corn. mon was the utter and final extinction of this bad system of election.—( Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord, how ever, with that sign of prudence which was peculiar to him when he addressed the House, took care in no one sentence of his speech which he could tax himself with recollecting, to ad mit that he would consent to see the principle of self-election altered.—( Hear, he ar .) Th e N oble and Learned Lord, with all that caution which was characteristic of a very prudent man, who was not exactly aware of the situation he might be placed in another year, had carefully left to himself a loop hole through which he might creep, and make the admission that such Reform as was now proposed was necessary.— ( Hear, hear.) He challenged any ane to deny that the exa mination of witnesses at the bar of their Lordships' House would be equivalent to defeating the Bill altogether, in any shape, or in all shapes.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord had placed his trust in the valuable principle of self-election. Lord LYNDHURST denied that•ho.bad made use of any such expression. The Noble Marquis, by construction, might draw the inference, but there was no ground for his asserting the expression had been used by him. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had heard the Noble and Learned Lord object to the general principle of the Bill, and had not made the reservation with respect to the principle. Lord LYNDHURST said that, on the contrary, he had objected to the principle of self-election in Corporations ; but he had said that it might be got rid of by other means than by this Bill. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had understood the Noble and Learned Lord to argue in the manner he had stated. Throughout the whole of the Noble Lord's speech there there was manifestly a tone of alarm at the idea of interfering with institutions which he had previously said were founded on the p:inciple of self-election, and the rejection of that po pular suffrage which was in harmony with the constitution of the new municipal bodies to be appointed under this Bill. The Noble and Learned Lord had warned the House on this subject, and had said, God , forbid that their Lordships should place such power at the foot of what he was pleased to call the democracy, because the people and public of this country were to be indulged with the exercise of the right of administering their own, an d to h ave their municipal tins framed so that they m i g h t b e of the great‘nt use, and P romote the benctit of those most deeply interested, He did not quarrel with the use of those institutions in former times, but they did not stand on a suffii:ieAtly broad basis, con sidering sat the extended knowle(tothe pr esent t i mes. It must be admitted that no ton Moving in any society in the metropolis could untef• into discussion in any room who must t io admit the great incre ase o f . k nowledge amongst ail la t sies—not that they were sue'n perfect legislators or lawyers as the Noble and Learned Lord—but who, by practice and oxperieaco, were qualified to judge of their own concerns, and weal as sell able to manage them as the most learned and experienced. He assumed that knowledge and expe rience went together, and perfectly prepared the people for eaoa a ane the management and control off their own affalrs. was a person comparatively, opulent, and he had inot the slightest hesitation in saying that his less wealthy neighbours had introduced such wholesome Reforms into the management of parish affairs 119 had been profitable to hirnielf s as well as to those of the same station as himself. He could tell the ishabe and Learned Lord who had cautioned their Lordships against sanctioning this Bill, as it would lead to the insecurity of property, that his poorer neighbours in any p4a risk in London, would be found to promote the best mariwc a meet of local Affairs ; and in proportion as the elections Wert rendered more popular, so far from the rich losing, and their property being confiscated, that their interests wo ul d Le pro. tected. The interests of the rich and the gentry t7)rocpupirtio; motel and secured by those who were the teebeects of aye, of annual elections, which the Noble and Learned Lord had expressed so much alarm at. The Noble and Learned Lord said, that if this measure were allowed to be carried, political intrigues and cabals wouldltiun;oedieuecteiodn,san..edreevo:iisi every one of the places in which t ed in . He rose chiefly for the tion of his Noble Fe' puee ,05,, of adverting to the observe, Reper; end, that this Bill u.'hs founded rti the enich so many objections Inid been made. He would mey repeat what fell fawn his Noble Friend at the table, that the Report n.ight be laid aside, and they need not assume that the Bill was founded on it. If this were done, they might, as was said by his Noble Friend, take the notoriety of the case, coupled with the Report.—(Cheering.) Taking both together, surely there was sufficient ground to proceed. This was not a Bid of pains and penalties, for if it were, they would not only be obliged to hear all the evidence to be adduced by Sir Charles Wetherell, but, also, counsel and evidence from every Corporation in the empire. The Noble Lord said that he wished to see the evidence, in order that he might apportion the remedy ; now that was pre cisely what lie (the Marquis of Lansdowne) did not wish to do. He did not wish to go into an inquiry as to the different degrees of that which was objectionable in each particular case. —(Hear, hear.) He wished to have a general measure, founded upon the entire of the abuses, and which, while it cured the whole, would do no more injury to the corporations of the country than would the Bill respecting Local Courts, in troduced by his Noble and Learned Friend last year, and which he wished to God had been passed by their Lordships. That Bill had for its object the abolishing of certain useless courts on the ground of public expediency, and the creation of new and efficient ones. Whatever the industry of scone of their Lordships might glean out of the four or five volumes of which the Report consisted, he would say that he saw nothing in them to justify that general sort of imputation in which the Noble ant Learned Lord had indulged, to the effect that this was a party measure, to be used for party purposes.—(Cheers.) What were the Noble Lords opposite admitting if what they stated about this being a party measure were correct ? Were they of opinion that those principles, and that party to which they were attached, stood so low in the opinion of the po pulation of this country, that the mere destruction of the self deated Corporations- was to overthrow their interest ? (Cheers.) Were they of opinion that the mere introduction of the principle of popular election into these bodies would establish that principle which they held so in abhorrence, and which the Noble and Learned Lord would say was the Whirr principle, or something more than Whig?—( laugh and cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord had thought proper to indulge in a course of observations upon the Gentlemen who drew up this Report, for which the siight expression of approbation which accompanied it did not afford a very satisfactory apology.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord said he knew them to be most respectable individuals, of strict honour and integrity in private life ; yet he, on the other h an d, asserte d , that they would lend them selves for party purposes to carry on a quasi judicial inquiry ; and that they would collect evidence, and partially select the facts that came before them, with the intention of misleading the Government and Parliament as to the result of their in quiry. —( Hear.) It was easy to fix a v ague st i gma upon pub lic men—(llear)— an d the Noble and Learned Lord dealt largely in that sort of stigma, his object being to fix a particu lar character upon those gentlemen. He could assure the Noble and Learned Lord, that with their politics lie was him self unacquainted; they might be what the Noble and Learned Lord had described them ; but suppose that the Noble and Learned Lord was quite right in that respect, he did rot know that the circumstance of a man being born a Whig, and something more than Whig, waste, disqualify him from any sort of judi cial feectiees,...(Cheers. ) lie was efraid that if the cir cumstance of an individual having been " a Whig, or some thing more than Whig," were to be a disqualification, it would reach to much higher and more eminent characters—( Great cheering)—than those who had been subject to the Noble and Learned Lord's insinuations.—( Renewed cheers.) He would say, in justice to individuals both in this House and out of it, that he did not believe that the circumstance of having been a Whig, and something more than Whig, unfitted a man fur the exercise of any public function. —(Cheering.) But thought the Noble and Learned Lord endeavoured to cast only vague imputations upon the characters of most of the Com missioners, there was one imputation in which he indulged which was of a specific nature. The Noble and Learned Lord, for the purpose of effect and creating an unfavour able impression against one of the individuals who was not here to defend himself, wound up his list of characters, re peating it again and again, with the remark that Mr. Parkes was the Secretary of the Birmingham Political Union. Now in this single instance, in which the Noble and Learned Lord condescended to name a specific fact, he was mistaken as to that fact.—( A laugh and cheers.) He had received the most distinct assurance that Mr. Parkes never was the Secretary of the Birmingham Political Union—(Cheers, and one or two cries of " No," from the Opposition side.) He was quoting the expression of the Noble and Learned Lord : he imputed again and again that Mr. Parkes was Secretary of the Dir t:nigh= Political Union—( Hear, hear)-:-and lie now told him that he was afraid that that imputation was incor rect. No doubt the Noble and Learned Lord was mistaken ; but finding that he was so, would he not extend a little of the charity to those Commissioners which he was under the ne cessity of claiming for himself Cheers.) He had charged the Commissioners with inaccuracy, to lower they in their individual estimation; but he hoped that the Noble Lord would admit, that with the greatest care, it was not always possible to come to a correct conclusion. lie knew not the mode, indeed, by which they could obtain that mass of evidence which they required on such a subject, without being betrayed into a few mistakes, which industry might bring Out, and that might be used even as those whi c h had been cull e d h a d b een used this night. If their Lordships were prepared to go into a close inquiry as to this subject; if they were determined to have stated to them all the facts and contradictory facts connected with the Bill; if such were to be their course of proceeding, who could guarantee that it would end in a month, or a year, or two years ?—( Cheers.) He contended that they were already in possession of abundant facts upon which the most implicit reliance might be placed. It was notorious that abuse to a great extent had existed ; such abuse existed now, and their Lordships were called upon to apply the remedy. lie could not enforce on them in a better way the extent to which the impression as to the abuses that prevailed in the public mind than by quoting from ono of those commissioners whom the Neble and Learned Lord excepted from his censures, The Noble and Learned Lord had done that gentleman justice, because he had put in a protest. The gentleman to whom he referred was Sir F. Pal grave, whom 'habit) Lords opposite would consider an unex ceptionable witness. He had the honour of knowing that gen tleman hireteeil, and begged to be allowed to say that he much respecter him, and believed him to be greatly in favour of the ailij'quate.d institutions of his country. He would now tell Clem what it was that, with respect to those institutions, this gentleman stated; he did not speak of facts, but as to the general expression. He said, " Upon examination of the evidence afforded by the Reports, it appears that, taking the municipal system as a whole, the ancient efficiency of the corporate institutions of England and Wales is diminished, and in some particular instances nearly destroyed."—( Hear.) Ile went on to say, Whilst every other portion of the po licy of the realm has been gradually adapted to the progress of society, the improvement of municipal law has been wholly neglected, and municipal corporations are la bouring at present under the incumbrance of institu tions which have ceased to harmonize with the general .system of our jurisprudence, and the influence of pri vileges or immunities, which, however injurious they may have become, have, up to the present day, been created, pro tected, and fostered by the law." That was the opinion of the " Tory" Sir F. Paigrave, as the Noble and Learned Lord de scribed him to be. In other parts he pointed out the denial of justice which took place in a great many of the smaller of these Corporations, from the impossibility of' forming juries, thus tainting the very fountain of justice at its source. Was it necessary to read more than this as to the general opinions entertained of these Corporations to justify the adoption of a larger measure for placing the foundation of municipal justice, and the financial administration of every portion of the country upon the basis on which alone it would be rendered, secure, viz., the principle of free election as opposed to the principle of self-election. These were 'the grounds on which he asked their Lordships to proceed without delay into the committee on this Bill, where they would be enabled to consider any amendments that might be proposed, and he admitted that he had heard some suggested that he would be happy to see in corporated in the Bill. He begged pardon for having address ed them at such length, but he felt it his duty t o d o so, b eing deeply impress e d with he paramount importance of the plea sure.-4 Cheers. ) Lord LYNDHURST, in explanation, never intended to slake a charge against the Commissioners—the Oharge he made was against those who appointed them.—(P:ea' r, hear.) He did not intend to say that the Commis":ioners , had not acted according to their best judgment, butearerybody knew that party feelings might give a bias to ram's minds. Amongst some other of the gentlemen he knew Mr. Austin particularly, and greatly respected him. So much for that. There was another point on which lie wished to remark. He felt that the Noble Marquis, in what he bad said of those who wore Whigs, and something more than NYhigs, had conveyed an insinuation aaeainst him. He teener belonged to any party till ho came to the House of 'Ards. Ile had never belonged to any political society he had been in Parliament for sixteen years, and he 7:l;heil the Noble Marquis, if he could, to point out any speech or act of his which would justify his being described as a Whig or something more than Whig. The Duk of NEWCASTLE opposed this Bill on the . ground, that it would be an infringement of the Royal prero gative, and attack the rights of his fellow subjects secured to them by charters from the earliest period. He conceived that the Commission was decidedly illegal—thrA it had been proved to be so by Noble Lords on his side of the House, and the illegality of the Commission ren'Atired the Report irregular. The measure founded on ibis Report was of a most flagitious character, and he presr.med would not be pressed by their Lordships. This being a Bill of pains and penal. ti's, it was impossible that, acting in their judicial charaotett> they could pass it without calling evidence. He confessed be was a Reformer.—(A laugh.) He objected to tbe word Res