The Sun. — London, England, 1835-06-27 00:00:00

concerning that Gentleman precisely in the same way as the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had now done. He (Mr. Shaw) stated that he believed that no such bills of in dictment had been found against Mr. Hudson, and he more over added that bills of indictment had been found against other parties concerned in the election, but not against Mr. }ludson.—( Llear.) The matter, as far as regarded Mr. Hud son, had been dealt with in a spirit of kindess by him, and the House shDuld bear in mind that the Government of the time was in favour of the opposing candidates. There could be, therefore, no anxiety on their parts to proceed against Mr. Hudson, and he (Mr. Shaw) never experienced any. He had been repeatedly requested to bring the matter before the House, and he invariably refused to do so. He repeated that no bills of indictment had been found against Mr. Hudson, though bills had been preferred against the other parties. — (Question.) However, the less the I-lon. and Learned Gen tleman opposite pressed the matter the better it would be for • Mr. Hudson and all parties. He had one more word to say — (Loud cries of " Question," and " Chair.") Sir J. HOBHOUSE rose to order. The House had already granted sufficient indulgence to the Right Hon. Gen tleman; and if he persevered, the consequence would he that the Hon. and Learned Member on his right (Mr. O'Connell) would claim to make a reply, and thus the important motion that was about to be brought on would be interrupted.—( Loud cries of " Lord Morpeth.") Mr. SHAW again rose, but the tremendous cries of " Order," and " Chair," caused him to sit down without being beard. The SPEAKER made a few observations, which were totally inaudible. Colonel PE RC E VAL endeavoured to address the House, but the calls for Lord Morpeth were so loud and general that the Hon. and Gallant Colonel was obliged to resume his seat. TITHE—IRELAND. The order of the day was then read for calling the attention of the House to the Irish Tithe Question—and on the motion of Lord Morpeth, the following resolutions of the 7th of April were read : " That any surplus revenue of the present Church Establish ment in Ireland, not required for the spiritual care of its members, be applied to the moral and religious education of all classes of the people, without distinction of religious persuasion, providing for the resumption of such surplus, or of any such part of it as may be required 'oy an increase in the number of the members of the Esta blished Church. " That it is the opinion of this House that no measure upon tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactory and final adjustment, which does not embody the principle contained in the foregoing resolutions." Lord MORPETH—I hope, Sir, that the temper of the discussion from which we have just emerged, to whichever side of the House the blame may be principally owing, may not be a prelude to the discussion of the subject to which I now invite the attention of the House.—( Hear, hear.) I am sure it will be readily conceded to me, that in rising to bring forward a motion which has for its professed object the set tlement of the question of Irish tithes, and the future regu lation of the Irish Church Establishment, that to bespeak the usual and more than usual indulgence and forbearance of the House is not to use mere words of course, or to preface a speech with mere commonplace. For when I recollected and when the House remembers the inherent difficulties and complexi ties of the subject, the numerous experiments which have been attempted upon it, and the various aspects which it has from time to time assumed—and when we consider further the skill, the perseverence, and the ability which have succes sively, from so many quarters, been brought to bear upon it, but which, great and able as those qualities have been, have all hitherto successively failed in obtaining that which is the main object of all parties—a satisfactory and final adjustment of the question at issue—well may I find my present endea vour arduous, and the prospect it presents to me almost appal ling. I well know that any one who puts himself in the situa tion that I have done—that of taking upon himself the respon sibility of a very important office—puts himself out of a condi tion to plead want of preparation. At the same time I may be permitted to state, that the difficulty of my undertaking has been considerably augmented, and my means of prepara tion rendered very inadequate to deal with a question of such great and difficult state policy, by reason of my never hitherto having taken any very prominent part in the discussion of this question.—(Hear, hear.) There is one consideration alone which tends to lighten the load of difficulty which I gather from a retrospect of the subject, and that is, that it devolves upon me to suggest, for the first time, the solution of the Tithe question, accompanied by a principle placed upon a ground of the most just policy and the most honest concilia tion, and such as I believe to be indispensable to reconcile the parties concerned—that is the nation at large—to that sacrifice and that embarrassment which any settlement of such a question must in some degree entail. At all events I trust that my very abstinence from any former discussion on this subject will entitle my observations to be received with all possible temper; because I flatter myself, that with all its difficulties, I shall be able to approach it without possessing any of its animosities.—(Cheers.) After the best considera tion I have been able to give the subject, and after a consulta tion with those best calculated to give an opinion upon it, I have thought myself warranted in adopting my present course, and in making my motion without going into a previous Com mittee. The measure of which I have given notice embraces two leading heads—the settlement of the Tithe question, and future regulation of the Irish Church Establishment. With =pest to the first—that of the settlement of the Tithe ques tu)a—l think the precedent of the Irish Tithe Composition ket, introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge in 1823, and of the Bill for the Composition of English Tithes, introduced by Lord Spen cer in 1833, being both so introduced without resorting to a Committee, give me sufficient authority on this part of the subject. There are one or two regulations embodied in the Bill I propose to submit to the House, upon which it will be first necessary to obtain the sanction of a Committee before they can be embodied in the Bill. With respect to the proposi tion relating to the future regulation of the Chur c h Establish ment, and the appropriation of its revenues, I cove r my present course by the Resolutions which were moved by my Noble Friend the Secretary for the Home Department, and agreed to by the House on the 7th of April last, and which the Clerk has just read at the table. The whole subject has been so fre quently and so recently before the House, that .a verybrie a f s statement indeed will be sufficient to call the attention of Hon. Members to the position which it at p resent occu p ies ; and I proceed to state the particulars of the measure which I shall have the honour of submitting to the House, it will in some sort be putting them not so much in contrast as in com parison with the two particular measures which ?save lately enga g ed the attention of Parliament—the one introduced by Mr. Littleton, now Lord Hatherton, and which was after wards sent up to the House of Lords ; and the other an nounced by the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite (Sir H. Hardinge), in the present Session of Parliament. And I find, notwithstanding all the warmth of feeling, and all the statements which have arisen upon these occasions, that there is so much real similarity and agreement in all the mea sures that have come before the House, that the chief part of this branch of the subject will be attained by my marking as I go along such prominent parts of difference as they occur. —( Hear.) It will not be necessary to inform any of those who have given attention to this subject, that the compositions for tithe in Ireland, under the Act that goes by the name of Goulburn's Act, were voluntary and temporary ; and which, by the Act of my Noble Friend the Member for North Lanca shire (Lord Stanley), were made compulsory and perpetual. The compositions which by the latest account I have been able to make out, from the returns presented to Parliament, amount to 560,0001. for ecclesiastical tithe, and 100,0001. for lay tithe. Now, the opening proposition of the present measure is that in which both the previous Bills of the two preceding Governments, as well as the opinions of every one who has written, thought, or spoken upon the subject, have uniformly concurred—namely, that the composition for tithes throughout Ireland should at once cease and determine. —( Loud cheers.) Circumstances make this act not so much of expediency as of necessity ; and those parts which are not so obvious in themselves receive illustration not only from all that has been said within these walls, but from all that is said and still doing without them ; so that I feel it superfluous to say more on that subject. But before we approach the sub ject of the Bill, there comes a clause—for we must not over look the chapter of arrears. It will be in the recollection of the House that the liberalit) of a former Parliament voted the sum of one million (subject to an understanding that the, same should be repaid) for the tithes in arrear for the years 1831, 1832, and 1833. Of this sum I understand that 640,000/. have already been advanced. The whole million, however, was proffered only as a temporary relief. Every tithe-owner who chose was entitled to receive his portion, subject to a cer tain prescribed reduction. Those who did not choose to avail themselves of this grant were left to the ordinary methods of recovering their tithes, in aid of which the civil force was never withheld, and in many cases had been applied with very unfor tunate results. By the Bill sent up to the House of Lords in the last Parliament, it was enacted that the residue of the million might be applied to any remaining arrears of tithes for the years 1831, 1332, and 1833 ; but the repayment of the whole million was to be by instalments during five successive years, to be paid by the landlords in addition to certain rent charges, to which by that Bill they would become liable. With what precise provisions the Right lion. and Gallant Officer opposite intended by his Bill of this session to meet the arrears we are not quite acquainted ; and the responsibility for the want of that knowledge rests elsewhere, inasmuch as t hat Ri g ht !ion. and Gallant Officer never had the opportunity to bring in his Bill.—( Hear.) But as far as I can collect from the state ment he made on the question, he meant to apply the residue of the million to the payment of the arrears of 1834. Ido not remember his making the least advertence to the tithes for the years 1831, 1832, and 1833. He expressed, indeed, his apprehension, which I believe was too well founded, that even for the arrears for 1834 the sum in question would be greatly inadequate. Now, with the arrears of the years 1831, 1832, and 1833, we do not purpose to meddle. The parties to whom they are due had the option of partaking of the liberality of Parliament, so far as the grant of the million extended ; the legal powers of recovery were also at their disposal ; we there fore think it fair to leave them to the consequence of their own conduct ; but, with equal fairness, we do not think our 'elves warranted to interfere with pending suits, however much we may think it desirable to allay at once all those an cient grounds of irritation of which this subject has been the fruitful source. How, then, is it that we propose to meet the arrears of 1834? We find in mane parts of Ireland. especially in the northern and Protestant parts, that several landlords, under the provisions of the Act of the Noble Lord the Mem ber for North Lancashire ( Lord Stanley), have undertaken to Pay the clergyman his tithes, subject to a bonus of 15 per cent. I believe that about 102,000/. composition has thus been provided for voluntarily by the landlords. These land lords we propose to keep to the observance of the liability they have voluntarily contracted. But it may be said, do we not act unfairly in giving a preference to those who have not chosen to impose on themselves this liability? Undoubtedly WO do mean retrospectively as well as prosp - ectilielv to protect t a pe r uallant o bserve Hudson the late he bl d at th e did ac t ppeared eh arae strati ge I his at le Hon. mission. equenc c iblic pa intance, )luntary he ha d )ause in on the Itlusion, 1' se and Learned the IP as o c i , st cri es 01 ;or 'Ann, rd, 'O s ti a l) .1 Pcr ccv e lf. t o hirn s )ortunitY,of ed a 5.16 ' 1 0 Dub ra o i i t a s tate nt to , r 'e/ d loud ba 'd that '0 :..hargetit tC resPe c pctl cd the the tenant from the payment of tithes ; but we at the same time propose to give a power to the Privy Council to reetiYtr the amount of arrears for the year 1834, f.tlll3eCl to a reduc tion of 25 per cent. from those littialoras who have a perma nent estate in the lanti---that is an estate of inheritance, and upon whom the liability has already by law devolved. There fore, in the case of an occupying tenant, we do connive to a certain extent at the non-fulfilment of certain obligations : yet, in the instance of those who have voluntary undertaken to pay the clergymen, we certainly shall require the fulfilment of their obligations. We therefore, in this case, certainly give a pre ference to the persons who did not choose to take upon them selves that liability, over those who have obeyed, or who have undertaken to obey the, law. In addition to these points, we propose to apply the residue of the million to those landlords who have undertaken to pay the clergymen. We also pro pose to ask leave of a Committee of this House to introduce subsequently into this Bill a clause for remitting the instal ments due for all sums advanced under the Million Act.— ( Hear, hear.) I do not pretend absolutely to defend this measure. I admit that that million was voted under a pro mise of repayment; and I believe that the repayment was sin cerely in the contemplation of those who proposed that vote. But after the rejection of the Tithe Bill of last year—( Hear, hear, hear)—and after the admission which, even before that rejection, was made in the House of Lords by Lord Melbourne, then Prime Minister, as to the improbability there was of ever being able to recover the million and after the distinct an nouncemet of the Right Honourable and Gallant Officer in his place as Secretary for Ireland, that he meant to propose a remission of that debt, I must think that every one must be convinced that this million was gone past recovery.—( Hear.) It is impossible to recover it from those whom I still con sider to be the suffering Clergy of Ireland—(Hear, hear, hear)—as it must inevitably involve them in those means of military interference which would lead to.a repetition of those sanguinary collisions that have already signalized the attempts made to recover tithe arrears ; and which, after all, would most probably terminate as those attempts have hitherto done, in the collection of' a sum of 12,0001. at a cost of 28,0001.—(Great cheering.) I know that many of those who sit on the same side of the House with myself have expressed their opinion on this subject, and have declared their determination not to con sent to so great a free gift, on the part of this empire at large, to relieve the embarrassments of the Irish Clergy, or to prop up the condition of the Irish Church, without such an equiva lent as that of the future disposal of the tithes—as would be consistent with justice, more congenial to the feelings of the people, and more conducive to the real object we all have in view, that of a permanent settlement of this question upon the basis of civil and religious liberty. Well, such a liberal pro vision we propose to engraft upon our Bill, and it is upon the strength of this that we now come forward to appeal to the generosity of the representatives of the empire at large to con firm this Parliamentary grant, in order that we may be able not only to meet the pressing exigencies of the case, but to ad. dress ourselves with more facility and freedom to the terms of the arrangement before us. Having thus disposed of— Lord STANLEY begged pardon for interrupting the No ble Lord ; but he wished to ask what amount of arrears the Noble Lord expected the Privy Council to be able to collect ? —( Order, order.) Lord M 0 RPETH—I will give the Noble Lord the informa tion he requires, as far as I can. The amount of composition which devolves upon the landlords amounts to about 75,0001., but we propose only to recover from those landlords who are in possession of an estate of inheritance, so that the amount likely to be recovered will be between 60,0001. and 70,0001. Having then, thus disposed of what appertains to the past (as to the payment of arrears), I now advert to the provisions proposed to be established for the future. In common with the proposition contained in the Bill of last year, and in that announced by the Right Hon and Gallant Officer this year, we propose to convert the existing tithe composition into an annual rent charge, payable by the owner of the first estate of inheritance, or such other equivalent estate, which rent charge shall be equal to seven-tenths of the amount of the present composition, that is, to 701. out of every 1001. composition. The proposal of the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite was, that the rent-charge should be equal to three-fourths of the composition—that is, to 751. out of the 1001. I need not apologise to the landlords of Ireland for the alteration I now propose to make. In the Bill of last year the amount of the rent charge was proposed to be three-fifths, or 601. in every 1001. ; but then it devolved a charge of 17 per cent. upon the consolidated fund and the perpetuity purchase fund, and no remission was proposed to be made of the million grant. But we do not propose to put the income of the existing Clergyman, who is the incumbent, upon quite 'the same amount at which we hereafter fix the rent charge. The rent charge will make 701., per cent. but we shall charge the cost of collection of all tithes due to tithe owners, staking a further reduction of 6d. in the pound. Thus the actual net income derivable from every 100/. composition will be 681. ss. but we have determined to make a difference not only be tween the existing and the future incumbent Clergyman, but between the Clergyman incumbent and the lay impro priator, inasmuch as the one has no duty to perform, and the other has a duty to discharge exceeding all others in import ance ; and who has from circumstances, during the last few years, been reduced to a state of great privation ; not, I be lieve, in most instances from any fault of his own, or from any demerits of the body to which he belongs.-_( Cheers.) But his reverses have been caused by that just retribution which is always involved in a vicious system, and which sooner or later is sure to visit even its most unoffending (Cheers. ) The income, then, that will accrue to the exist ing clerical incumbent will amount to 73/. 55., out of every 100/. composition. This additional charge will certainly not be perpetual, as in the Bill of last year ; and we propose to make a charge of five per cent. only, instead of seventeen and a half per cent., as proposed in a former Bill, upon the perpetuity purchase fund ; which, considering the men to whom relief is to be applied, and the object intended to be obtained by it—namely, a final settlement of this great ques tion—cannot be regarded as an unappropriate or an uneccle siastical distinction. And lam pleased to think that this view of the subject received countenance from the statement made by the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite, for, as I understood the speech with which he opened his plan to the House, he meant that in case of any loss accruing to the present clerical incumbent during the investment of the re demption money, for which the Bill provided, though the provision makes no part of our measures to indemnify the existing clerical incumbent, to the amount of 751. a year, and this indemnification be proposed to charge upon the per petuity purchase fund. The machinery of the present Bill is so similar to that of the Bill of last year, that I shall not feel myself called upon to enter into any details respecting it. It makes the rent charges payable to the tithe, and invests the care of them in his Majesty's Commissioners of Land Re venue. I believe the Right Hon. and Gallant Gentleman proposed that the clergy should recover from the head land lord, and that if they did not receive their due at the proper period, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should levy it for them, having recourse to the tithe process. Now, I cannot but think that this arrangement tended to involve ecclesias tical persons and bodies in a constant recurrence of dispute and altercation, as well as in the merely secular province of the matter, to a far greater extent than I think desirable.— ( Cheers.) This Bill will provide, in addition to the provi sions I have already enumerated, a power of revision and re valuation, under certain circumstances, of the existing tithe composition. I own I should have very much desired to have put an end to the whole subject at once, but the represen tations which were made were so many and so urgent—com ing, too, in a great degree, from those who yielded to none in good will and friendliness to the Church, backed, too, in many cases, by such strong circumstances in corroboration— that we have felt it would be difficult, if not impossible, to effect any settlement of the tithe that would carry with it the probable acceptance of the Irish people, without including some such measure of revision and revaluation.—( Cheers. ) Our care, therefore, has been, on the one hand, to adopt such just and proper precautions as would ensure the absence of real and sound matters of complaint, such as promissory notes given by insolvent parties, adjudications made by tribu nals before whom the parties did not appear, and other in stances of the like nature, while at the same time we secured that power of revision from being groundlessly, frivolously, or vexatiously exercised.—(Loud cheers.) After the amount of the rent-charges has been once fixed, it will be liable to no further variation, except as the compositions arc now varied, according to the price of corn, at certain stated periods. It is likewise proposed to extend the provisions of Lord Tenterden's Act for the limitation of actions in Ireland, in the same manner as was proposed by the Bill of last year. These, Sir, are the principal particulars of the measure, so far as regards the im mediate settlement of the property in tithe, and the interests of the existing incumbents. In recommending them to the favour of the House, I do not do so, assuredly, because they obviate all objections, or steer clear of all difficulty. The na ture of the question itself, and the actual circumstances of the time, render such a conclusion impossible, and make anything we can select but a choice between the conflicting embarrass ments which must beset the question, to do what seems for the utmost practical good of all parties with the least avoidable unfairness to any—(Checrs)—and we incur this disadvantage, too—the disadvantage of running counter to that favourite and specific plan, which every one who gives his attention to so large and important a subject is sure to set his own heart upon. Some persons lay great stress upon a total revaluation, and the imposition of a general land-tax ;to which I think the chief objection is, the unnecessary consumption of time consequent upon the introduction of the new machinery which such a change would require.—( Hear, bear.) Others—and I know these form a large party—are very much wedded to the prin ciple of redemption. Now, I have not to remind the House that the propositions which were laid before it for the redemp tion of tithe were, after much trial and long discussion, re jected by the last Parliament. I did not think they would find favour with the present; and I own I have never been able to sec how they could be carried into effect without very sensible loss, and without a very sensible diminution of the revenues of the Clergy.--( Cheers.) On the whole I prefer to re commend this Bill For the adoption of the House, as in the first place liberal to the Clergy, to whom it remits a mil lion of money which is now due from them, and secures to them for the time to come a certain amount of income, subject, it is true, to certain deductions, but guaranteed be yond the risk of failure, and without any trouble or cost of collection.—(Cheers.) I recommend this Bill as satisfactory to the occupying tenant, from whom it removes all tbe vexa tions incident to the collection, extending even in well-dis posed persons to the resistance of th e obnoxious impost—as conducive to the real interests of the landlord, to whom, in ad dition to all the indirect advantages which must result to him from the comparative tranquillization of the country, it gives, as far as the land of which he is the owner is concerned, a di rect bonus of 30 per cent.—as calculated upon the whole to give satisfaction to, and find acceptance with, the country at large, especially when coupled with that fairer and more equal distribution of ecclesiastical revenues, of which we now hope to lay the foundation, which we hope ultimately to establish, and which I will now proceed very briefly to submit to the SLIN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 27, 1835. consideratldn dr the liotise.—( Loud cheers.) I know that in approaching this part of the subject I run the double risk of shocking what I think the untenable notions of one party, and perhaps of falling short of what I might equally consider the too high-flown expectations of another, inasmuch as while we deny the inviolability of Church property, we are determined to maintain the existence, and, we hope, together with the exist ence the efficiency, of a Church Establishment even in Ire land. We have to deaL I With a edaditinti, pr things which, in the pf66iit state of public opinion, would have pre cluded any sane man from endeavouring to found there, of all things hard to begin afresh, a Protestant Episcopal Church ; but finding it there, with all its long prescription, interwoven as it is with so much of the civil polity of our country, we are not prepared either to uproot its foundations or destroy its frame-work ; and yet so absolutely convinced am I of the anomalous and partial ground upon which, on the clearest evidence, it is now established, that I feel sure you must con sent to modify—if you mean at least that any human power shall preserve it.—( Cheers.) There has been a very strong, and perhaps, to a certain extent, yet unanswerable objection expressed against any precise specification of numbers, espe cially when any result supposed to be very desirable by other parties, particularly in a turbulent and disordered state of so ciety, would be likely to ensue, on the precise numbers falling short of the fixed point. We, therefore, endeavoured to avoid as much as possible, any exact specification of numbers, and in one instance in which we found it necessary to make it—at least if we were prepared to do' anything in earnest towards removing the glaring inconsistency which prevails between the ecclesidstical revenues of Ireland and the duties performed, we happily found that we were enabled to make our reference to numbers retrospective instead of prospective. It is neces sary, I contend, to fix one point below which the presentation to vacant benefices shall be suspended. If we do not do this we shall do nothing; if we do not do this we must be still pre pared to keep up livings without duties, clergymen without flocks, pay without work—in short, all the worst gains of the sinecurist upon the worst plea of the bigot.—(Tremendous cheering.) There is now placed upon the table the Report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction, who, in pursuance of the instructions delivered to them, have presented us with a census of the population of Ireland, and the proportions of the different religious persuasions. Now, I certainly cannot pretend to claim for this work, nor could I for any work of the same nature, especially if it had been concluded in so limited a space of time as the present, the character of per fect and undeviating accuracy ; but I believe that, as far as circumstances would admit, the report of this commission has been framed in a manner which makes it as authentic and accurate, as any document of the kind can pretend to be. —( Hear.) For the House will observe that the basis of the present census was the census of 1831, which census certainly was not framed in any expectations of its ever being used to ascertain the relative proportions of the members of the dif ferent religious denominations. It is therefore in that respect liable to no imputation of partiality. The enumerators who made this census were appointed by the magistrates in each county—a body of men not likely to have wished to have fa voured any particular party, or to have taken any biased or partial view of the subject. They were ordered to commu nicate with all the ministers of all religious persuasions, and the clergy of every denomination were invited to render their assistance. This in many casts was really yielded, and especially, I am happy to say, by the clergy of the Esta blished Church, who in many cases submitted censuses of their own, and in others actually visited every house in their respec tive parishes. The enumerators were directed to leave the list open fourteen whole days for inspection. It wts then verified upon oath ; and after it had remained open for inspec tion during the fourteen days, the Commissioners held a pub lic inquiry, at which all religious ministers of every persuasion were invited to attend to give in their lists, and the evidence of every Commissioner was taken in the face of the whole there assembled. If there were likely to be any very marked inac curacy in the enumeration of numbers, it would certainly be more probable to arise in the statement of places containing a very large population, in which, of course, it is very difficult to ascertain the fixed and precise number of inhabitants. For instance, in the case of Belfast, i where there are 67,000 and odd inhabitants, 17,000 of whom are members of the Established Church, it is much more likely that a mistake would occur than in the enumeration of small parishes where the Protestants were easily counted and few in number. In the latter case how could the Protestant who read the list and perceived himself omitted, forbear from coming forward, stating the fallacy of the return, and disavowing the calumny cast by the enumerators on the parish ? I contend, then, that this report is entitled to be considered as authentic and accu rate as any census of this nature can be. I will not enter into any minute inspection of its contents, because another and a better opportunity will occur for doing so than is afforded by this general statement ; it will, therefore, be sufficient to state the general result.--( Hear.) The population of Ireland is stated to be 7,943,940—we might almost call it 8,000,000, in fact. Of this total the number of members of the Established Church is 852,064 ; of Presbyterians, 642,356 ; of other Pro testant Dissenters, 21,808 ; and of Roman Catholics, 6,427,712 persons.—( Loud cheers.) Putting the calculation in another form, the number of members of the Established Church is 852,064, while the total number of Dissenters from the Established Church is 7,091,876 persons.—(Renewed cheering.) The distribution of the members of the Esta blished Church is nearly as disproportionate as their total amount. It is well known that they are to be found in the greatest numbers in the northern province of Ulster; and not to enumerate other instances of the great disproportion that prevails, I may just mention that taking the superficies of Ire land in acres, according to the authority of a book which I believe is entitled to great respect on this subject—l mean Boate's work on Ireland—the result is, that in the diocese of Dromore there are 264 members of the Established Church to every thousand acres ; in the diocese of Tuam but 8 mem bers of the Established Church to every thousand acres; in the diocese of Clogher the members of the Established Church are as 26 to 1 of the whole population ; while in the diocese of Kilfenora the proportion is less than one.—( Great cheering.) Instances Of the greatest disproportion occur in many other cases. Now with what provision do we propose to meet these glaring instances of disproportion, both in the total amount and in the relative distribution in the members of the Established Church? We shall ask the House to use its authority for the suspension of the presentation or appointment to every benefice in which the number of Protestants does not exceed fifty. Before I go further I may, perhaps, be permitted to touch, for one moment, upon a very important branch of the subject. It may, perhaps, be asked whether in all those pa rishes in which the number of Protestants does not exceed fifty, we leave the members of the Established Church that may be resident there entirely without any means or opportu nities of spiritual instruction or public worship ? I have never abnegated either here or elsewhere, on occasions previous to to-night, my own adherence to the principles of an Established Religion. Therefore, in introducing a measure for the regu lation of the religious Establishment now in existence, and in endeavouring to adapt it to the state of society in which it is found, while I will shrink from contemplating no curtailment of its privileges, or distribution of its revenues, it seems to me to be presented by the justice of the case, and of fairness to wards other bodies—while I will be scared by no such names as confiscation, spoliation, and sacrilege—so long as I consider myself fully justified—yet as a Protestant, as a churchman, I do feel the highest satisfaction when I think I can combine, without prejudice to what is fair and equal towards all parties, any special adherence either to 'the faith which I profess, or to that form of religious establishment to which I belong. I will take now one of the ivorst instances, though not, as I have means of showing, a solitary instance in Ireland. I will take the case of a parish in which there is no glebe-house —no church—no churchman ; and even in this spot, if some member of the Established Church should chance to come to reside there—even if any casual passer by should stand in need of the performance of religious duties—l say, even in this spot, the solitary resident or the casual passer by shall find that the Legislature of his country has provided some one on whotn he may be authorized to call for the ministrations of spiritual comfort, or the consolations of religion. We do not profess, I must candidly promise, to do more than comply with the principle which leaves no foot of the State's dominions without the pale of the State's religion—a principle which I am sorry to say is not carried into effect in all parts of Ireland, some of which do not come within the operations of this Bill. Now in this parish, in which, as I have already said, there is neither church nor churchman, the cure of souls—which I believe, is a correct, though it seems rather a contradictory expression—the cure of souls is to be committed to the care of the neighbouring minister, appointed by the bishop at a stipend of 500/. per annum—( Laughter from the Op position, answered by cheers from the Ministerial benches) — at an additional SOL per annum ; in which case, I think, we indulgently depart from the proper rule, that where there is no duty there shall be no pay.--(Deafening cheers.) I under stand that by the Church Temporalities Bill, introduced by my Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were in certain cases em powered to assign a stipend of 4/. per annum.—(Renewed cheering.) I am not quite sure that this was specified dis tinctly in the Bill ; but I am informed that this stipend has been bone fide assigned; so, Sir, we improve in liberality as we grow older.—(Great cheering.) In any parish in which there are any members of the Established Church, or in which there is any number short of that below which the presentation to the living is suspended, we empower the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, to whom we think the su perintendence of these matters may most properly be confided —subject to the approbation and consent of the Lord Lieu tenant in Council—either to assign the cure of souls in that parish to the care of the neighbouring minister, in the same way as when there is no Protestant in the parish ; or if in their judgment the spiritual wants of the members of the Este ' blished Church in such parish cannot be provided for by this arrangement, with the same consent and approbation, to ap point a separate curate ; and it will be provided that in all cases where there is now a church and a resident minister, a separate curate shall be appointed.--( Cheers.) With regard to the payment when the cure of souls is committed to the neighbouring minister—there being on this supposition some members of the Established Church resident in the parish. the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, with the same consent and ap probation of the Lord Lieutenant in Council, may assign any yearly stipend, in the proportion they think the ecclesiastical duties to be performed may require, in no case being less than 101. or more than 501., and where• a separate curate is ap pointed his salary is not to exceed 75/. a-year.—( Loud cheers.) Where' a separate curate is appointed, if he choose to occupy the glebe house, and undertake to keep it in repair, the use of it is to be allowed him, together with as much of the glebe land as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners may think proper, provided it does not exceed in value the yearly amount of 251. In every parish in which the cure of souls is committed to the neighbouring minister, and where his own church is so situated as not to be calculated to afford accommodation for the spiritual wants and public worship of the members of the Established Church, the annexed parish, and also in those parishes in which a separate curate is to be appointed, provision is to be made for the erection of some giiiiible plied of public worship, calculated to accommodate the probable numbers of the congregation, to be built at an expense not exceeding 1001., or to be hired at a cost not exceeding 151. a year.— (Laughter from the Opposition side of the House, answered by cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Little indeed, may be thought of the places of public worship to be provided at this modest Bost.—(Another laugh.) They are not such, I achttit, ttg *ould suit the palmy days of vestry-cess, architec tural churches, arid liddslicpaid organs.—( Cheers.) Let it be recollected, however, that they ;ire My meant for the ac commodation of ten, twenty, or thirty persorig, Attlids« the whole of the surrounding neighbourhood, who dissent from the Establishment, and desire no advantage from it ; let it be re collected that, in their practical effects, they may be as worthy edifices as far more stately buildings, and that they may be found to be—. Such plain roofs as piety can raise ; And only vocal in their Maker's praise. ( Loud cheers.) Whenever provision is to be made for the spiritual wants of the members of the Established Church in any suspended parish, or whenever any appropriation is con templated for the building of or providing suitable places for the performance of public worship, the archbishop of the pro vince and the bishop of the diocese are to be associated with the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as Com Missioners pro hoc vice. In the case which more frequently occurs, where the suspended parishes form part of unions, the Commissioners will either be authorized to dissolve such parish from the union to which it heretofore belonged, or, if they think proper and expe dient, with the consent and approbation of the Lord Lieutenant in Council, to assign tsthe future incumbent of that union such a yearly stipend or salary in consideration of that suspended benefice as would have accrued either - to a neighbouring mi nister or to the separate curate of the parish had formed no part of such union, and had beTeir a distinct parish of itself. It will be provided, also, that no union slialrhenceforth be made without due notice being given to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Further, when it appears in the case of any parish which does not come within the provisions I have now mentioned, and which contains any number of Members of the Established Church, that after the deduction of thirty per cent. and the payment of taxes on Ecclesiastical benefices, the net income exceeds 300/. a year, the Ecclesiastical Commis sioners will be required to report the circumstances, upon the avoidance of the benefice, to the Lord Lieutenant, and he will be empowered to make such reduction as shall seem to him fit ting, after taking due cognizance of the circumstances, and taking into consideration the report of the Ecclesiastical Com missioners, according to the amount of the congregation and probable extent of duty to be performed ; provided that this reduction never reduces the annual net income below the amount of 300/.—( Cheers.) In the case of livings in the gift of the Crown, or of the Bishops, I think the right will be readily conceded to Parliament, if it shall seem to them for the good of the country and of the Church, to act upon the provisions of the Bill which I have briefly stated to the House. With regard to lay advowsons, it is hardly necessary for me to remind the House that they stand on a very different foot ing. How the Hon. Member for St. Andrews (Mr. A. Johnstone) intended to deal with lay advowsons and Church patronage in Scotland, the House were unfortunately pre vented from ascertaining the other night—(a laugh)—but I think it is most desirable, in endeavouring to effect any general settlement of this nature, that we should show as scrupulous and tender a regard as possible to all rights in the nature of pri vate property. Provision will therefore be made for empow ering the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to indemnify the owners of lay advowsons by an indemnification upon the fund collected from the various sources I have already described.—(Cheers.) This fund we propose to call the reserved fund ; it will be ap plicable, in the first instance, to pay all the yearly salaries and stipends of the neighbouring ministers and separate curates to be appointed under the provisions of this Act ; it will be ap plicable, in the next place, to pay all the charges which accrue upon the suspended parishes ; it will then be applicable to pay for the erection or provision of the places of public worship also provided for under this Bill ; and after all these purposes have been satisfied, in just accordance, as it seems to me, with the resolution moved by my Noble Friend, which has been read from the table this night--all the sums which in future accrue from year to year, will be applied by the Commissioners of National Education to the religious and moral education of all classes of the people, without distinction of religious persuasion.—( Loud and protracted cheering.) Now, as to the propriety of divert ing ecclesiastical funds from any but ecclesiastical purposes, and applying them to the general moral and religious educa tion of the people, without distinction of religious persuasion —these are points which I do not think it comes within my province now to touch on—(Cheers) —they have been dis cussed; they have been decided by this House—(Cheers)--- and it is in consequence of that decision, that I now submit this whole measure to their consideration.—(Great cheering.) But I will refer once again, for a moment, to an objection which has been expressed, arising out of the apprehended peril to the existing incumbents which this measure will oc casion. Now I own I cannot apprehend any such terrible results, so dangerous to our safety and to our lives, from such an ardent zeal for education, coupled with such a ruthless propensity to crime as these—in my view—rather morbid apprehensions seem to pre-suppose. But let it be observed, that although in the first place the districts from which the funds in question are drawn will be mainly and properly entitled to receive the benefit arising from them, there is nothing which will render it absolutely necessary to apply them within the actual bounds of such district. We shall be prepared, and' I doubt not any succeeding Go vernment will be prepared also, to apply to the liberality of Parliament not to stint or to stop the objects of national education in Ireland during the inevitable absence of means that must prevail during the infancy of the reserved fund and the lives of the existing incumbents. It may be said that ac cording to the resolutions of my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by which the spiritual wants of the Members of the Established Church are first to be provided for, the funds at present in the hands of the Ec clesiastical Commissioners for ecclesiastical purposes, are con fessedly very deficient.—( Opposition cheers.) Will it be contended that we are not at liberty to apply the funds that will arise under the operation of this Bill to the general pur poses of religious and moral education, the fund for ecclesias tical purposes being still inadequate ? I have no hesitation in saying that it seems to me we are clearly so entitled.—( Pro tracted cheering.) Beyond the bonus of 5L per cent., which it is intended shall be given to the present incumbents, from the perpetuity purchase fund, I believe it will be necessary to trespass upon the funds in the hands of the ecclesiastical Com missioners. I know that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners have at present a large debt, and that it will be a considerable time before they can be relieved of that debt ; but still I feel perfectly confident that they will ultimately have a considerable surplus in their hands. With that surplus it is not the intention of the Government in any manner to meddle. We mean to leave that fund entirely at the disposal of Parliament, just as it would have been done by the late Government, under the Bill introduced by them ; and it is this surplus which we hope that Parliament will be warranted to apply to the purposes of the moral and religious education of the Irish nation. without respect to religious distinctions.—( Loud cheering.) But when I talk of parishes in which there are no Protestants, or in which there are only ten or twenty persons who are members of the Established' Church, it must not be thought that we have been hunting after shadows. I call the attention of those who sneer at our giving only 5/. to the neighbouring clergy men for doing the duty in parishes where there are no Protes tants, to the statement of the number of parishes which, will come under the operation of this Bill. I shall not trouble the House by reading the number in each separate diocese in Ireland, as that would take up too much of the time of the House ; but 1 find that in the twenty-six dioceses of Ireland the number of parishes without one single member of the Established Church is no less (as will be seen by the Report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction now upon the table of the House) than 151. The number of parishes con taining less than ten Protestants, exclusive of those which contain no Protestants at all, is 194 ; the number containing less than tivent) Protestants is 198 ; the number containing less than thirty Protestants is 133 • the number containing less than forty Protestants is 107 ; and the number containing less than fity Protestants is 77. The total number of parishes therefore, which will come under the operation of the Bill, is no less than 860. —( Loud cheering, which continued for several minutes.) The following is the detailed account of the provisions of the Bill in regard to the suppression clauses, as applied to parochial benefices in Ireland : _ A • '4 .1;4 6 i".. ei ...- S• = -.4 4 1 1 Number of Parishes, containing, in _. ,P v S DIOCESES. ._ '6 $ Number, Protestants less than ii E . .5...9...4 .....„.ig„. ...... . e. 2., r• * A " ---- ---- 1 g tie, !.! 'A Ten. 'Twenty Thirty. Forty. Fitly. E.., ..........., ..-..... .............. ........... ............. -.................. .......- .............- ........... .......... ..... 1. Cashel ... _ • 14 11 16 8 6 3 53 2. Emly lO 9 9 2 2 '2 34 3. W terford 7 3 5 nil 1 nil 16 4. Lismore 5. Limerick._ 9 12 13 7 5 5 51 6. Ardfert and Aghadoc 7 13 12 7 7 6 52 7. Cork 1 2 1 4 7 2 17 8. Ross 9. Cloyne 10. Killaloe 1 11 11 7 8 4 42 11. Kilfenura 9 2 2 1 nil nil 14 12. Dub!in 13. Kildare 4 7 10 5 7 6 :,9 14. Ferns 7 .8 7 12 5 5 44 15. Leighlin 16. Ossory 17. Tuam 18. Elphin 19. Clontertand ' Kilmaedu?gh 7 6 8 4 3 33 20. Killala and Achonry 2 2 5 2 2 1 14 21. Armagh t 2. Ille4th 2.3. Ardagh nil nil 1 nil nil nil 1 21. Down 14 25. Connor 1 :3 2 4 4 nil , 21. Derry i• --_ --- ------ , 151 i 191 I 198 1 133 107 77 86n The consequence of this will be, that the funds which at pre sent go in these 'wishes to the maintenance of that w hich I must call the^olPrflubus part of the Church Establishment, because it goes to the maintenance of the sinecurists and ab sentees—(Cheers)—will be applied in those districts where there are at present many persons belonging to other persm . - skits now unprovided with religious instruction, and who now share with their fellow countrymen in the benefits of that moral and religious education which a paternal Government ought never to refuse to any class of Christians.--( Cheering.) I have also an account of the gross amount of the reserved fund arising from parishes where the Bill comes into full ope ration. This account does not include the reduction of bene fices to 3001. a year, because upon that I had no data upon which to form a sufficiently exact estimate; neither does it in clude the sums to be derived from the letting of glebe-houses, glebe-lands, &c. I find after making an allowance of 301. per cent. of tithe composition, which will accrue from the sus pended benefices in royal and ecclesitltical patrgpage, that the. 04 ) I" , z • ~ ,,7 7: _-_ --I. i: i , -,,,,,,,, . _ . - - - ......................., ..,,,, \ following will be the amount of the reserved fund arising from coed the worst predictions NI hich had been formed of it.-- `-e:fie parishes fa- (Cheers from the Opposition.) It went bey ond what bad been 14ke) U - . Groto Amount of reserved fund expected from even the worst friends of the stablished e Civeeedity9, athring from parishes. i f, but, as, as he had before said, it would nev -2 - ass infO - A,' l A* , kw/ r .. ,—.—.........4.---.--, Total the Legislature.—( Loud cheering.) O a ; 'y tn Iloyal or E, In Lay Patron. Am B rit of a •' • DIOCESES. Mr. II UM E hoped that the Noble Lord would not,bea elesiastical Pa- age, aftcr ca. Reserved tronatte, after isting interests Fund. alarmed by the predictions of the Right Hon. Baronet:— existing in- and indemnify. (Loud cheers.) It was absurd to say that the Church was not: retests. ing Patrons. --......-- ------ ---- --- to be suited to the wants of the peop le, for whose benefit it X 8. d. X. 5. d. X. i. d. was established.—( Cheers.) In settling in what parishes the i. Cashel Emly 1,760 13 6 5 03 15 5 appointment of a clergyman should be s u s p ended, it was abso 2. a. Waterford ... 521 0 n nil lutely necessary 4. Elsinore 1 11 2 1,603 310 The Government bad attempted to draw that line, but if dis 5. Liinertit , k H. Ardfert, &C.,. ... 7. Cork •• 1,862 19 9 308 IS 0 ples of the measure. But looking at the principles of the 8. Ross O. Cloyne la Killaloc 11. Ki1fen0ra........ 12. Dublin 1,013 4 9 176 12 0 performed, he (Mr. flume) would very willingly join him 13. Kildare l, 14. }erns 925 5 5 nil in striking out that clause.—( Hear , and a lau g h.) But it 15. Leighlin lit. e le. ossory 17. Tuam nd4 o that provision, was not to give 5/. for doing nothing, but that is etehin IX9 8 7 nil the clergymen might be encouraged to give assistance in 19. Clonfert and Kil- ' neighbouring parishes, if such assistance w ere required. He rnacduagh 20. Killala and Achonry SOO 12 10 nil had no fear that the Bill would not pass that House. It el. Arma g h Meath 33 Ardagh Pi 1 4 nil 24. Down 2 -.. Connor ssa 16 5 125 10 5 part of the sentence.) He bogged to address himself to 'the 21. Derry .... ...... I 63 3 1 nil TC" ---- 7s.qs it 7 -------- 10,118 5 — 7 58,076 17 2 that those of the people of England who considered Go - Exclusive or Glebe:. vernments as intended for the happiness of the greatest num- In this case, the very enumeration which I have now made, ber, not for the convenience of the few, all approved of the and the statement of the funds paid in parishes where no duties• present measure. There was only one part which he ( Mr. are perfo?Pned, are better than any declamation Which I could Hume) objected to, and that was that a million of the money make in support of the statement.—( Hear.) No declama- of the people should be given up, while there were funds from tion could come up to the bare arithmetic.—(Loud cheers.) which it might be recovered.—( Hear.) His only ()Eject in The Noble-Lord then proceeded to say, that on the deba;:, e rising was to protest against this surrender of the million, and which had taken place upon the appropriation Clause, they had to correct the mistaken notion which the Right Hon. Baronet heard a great deal said of the increase which was taking place hat; of the manner in which the Bill would be received by the in the members of the Established Church in 'lreland. He county,..—(Hear, hear.) He felt confident that the Bill, in ( Lord Morpeth) was happy to find these statements corrobo- its spirit aeld in its principles (though it might not perhaps he rated by the Report of the Commissioners of Public Instruc- objected to re some of its minor details) would be received by lion. The number of the members of the Established Church every well-wisiker of the Established Church, with grati was on the increase—( Hear)--but the Governm ent had not tude.—( Cheering. ) beeli inattentive to this branch of the subject, for it Was pro- Mr. SHAW could not allow this Bill to be read a first time vided by the Bill that when it appeared to the Commissioners without entering his earaest and warmest protest against it. of Public Instruction that the members of the Established Above all, he protested ;Oust the appropriation of pro- Church had increased to such an extent as made the sum perty of the Church to State purposes. He thought it un allowed to the clergyman wholly inadequate to remunerate just, too, that the class of landholde:s who had been benefited him for the duties which he had to perform, they were re- by Lord Stanley's Bill, should, by this .?ill, be deprived of that (wired to submit to the Lord Lieutenant a statement of that benefit. He would tell the Noble Lord that. nothing he could fact, and at the same time a statement of the amount which say would even make the clergy of Ireland lo - get their duty. they considered adequate in the circumstances. If the Lord They would never consent to accept a Bill, even if it were Lieutenant approved of the statement laid before him by the advantageous to themselves personally, if the prine;ples of it Commissioners, it was then to be laid upon the tables of bot h were the subversion of the Established Church.—(l4ear. ) Houses of Parliament, and at the expiration of six mont h s It would be a most disgraceful thing on the part of the British the recommendations of the Commissioners were to be car- nation if it suffered the Church Establishment in Ireland to tied into effect, provided that Parliament did not object to it. be.destroyed.—(Cheers.) If they admitted the principle laid —( Hear, bear.) The Bill contained, further, only some down as to the withdrawing the clergyman where there was clauses for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of the only a certain number of Protestants in a parish, they would Church Temporalities Bill; but as these clauses were in strict hold out a premium for the destruction of Protestants.— accordance with the principles Of that Bill, and were only hear.) He would recommend the Noble Lord not to indulge intended fur the purpose of carrying out those principles in chimerical plans on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) He did with more effect, he would not trouble the House by going not make the present observations for the purpose of excite into details regarding them. He might, however, be per- ment.—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) He mitted to mention, that the principal provisions of these would tell the Noble Lord, however, instead of pursuing his clauses were, that the property of the minor canons and vi- present course, at once to come forward openly and plainly cars-choral should be vested in the Ecclesiastical Commis- with a measure for the purpose of removing the clergy.— sioners, subject to existing interests and the discharge of actual (Hear, hear.) He would appeal to any impartial person duties. They provided, likewise, that tithes, disappropriated whether the present measure did not hold out a premium from dignities, in case of vicarages or other cures being suf- for the diminution of the number of Protestants in each ficiently endowed, might be carried to the account of the Ec- parish in Ireland to the minimum proposed by the Noble clesiastical Commissioners : and that tenants of bishops, in- Lord.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He doubted, also, stead of paying down the foreclose-money of perpetuities, whether the Noble Lord was justified in pursuing the course might give a mortgage at a reduced interest, payable within he had adopted by bringing in a Bill on this subject. He a limited period.—( Hear.) As was originally provided by had always understood that the course adopted in all matters the Church Temporalities Bill, the funds derived from these having reference to questions connected with religion or the different sources would be placed entirely in the hands of the administration of justice, or in which the prerogatives of the Commissioners. He had now gone through the main provi- crown were involved, was, in the first place, to resolve the sions of the Bill which he had the honour to submit to the House into a Committee, in which resolutions were proposed the House for its adoption. The Bill covered much ground; involving the principles of the measure intended afterwards to it comprised many heads, and involved many most important be introduced. He would appeal to ,the Chair, whether he principles.—( Cheers.) He, therefore, could not but expect was not correct in the view he took of the subject—that be that it would be assailed in many ways, and from many fore leave was moved for to introduce a Bill like that now quarters—(Loud cheers from the Opposition)—but he (Lord proposed, the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Morpeth) was fully convinced that the final settlement of the subject.—( Hear.) He did not suggest this with a view of great question of tithes was as indispensable to the clergy of delaying the subject. He had no intention of meeting the Ireland themselves—(loud cheers)—as he believed that an al- question with delay ; lie intended to pursue a fair course of tered state of the ecclesiastical re venue of Ireland was called opposition to it; but still he thought that they should adopt for, for the security of the Church Establishment itself.—( Loud that course generally acted upon in measures of this nature. cheers.) But while this Bill resolutely and boldly main- Lord, MORPETH observed that he felt justified in the tained the great principle of the appropriation of the course he bud pursued, by the precedents furnished him by surplus funds of the Church to the moral and religious edu- the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge) cation of the people in general, and of whatever persuasion— with roference to the Irish Tithe Bill, and also to the course (Cheers) —while it absolutely forbade all sinecures and ab- adopted when the English Tithe Bill was laid on the table. senteeism, and acted upon the principle that no one should be Mr. WALKER felt bound, as a Protestant landlord, to pro paid who ' did not work, he conscientiously believed that many test against the language used by the Right Hon. Member of its provisions would tend to give to the Protestants of Ire- for the University of Dublin. He was satisfied that a Bill of land, and the Established Church of which they were mem- this kind would produce security to the Irish Church instead bers, sources of permanence and strength, which, for various of destruction to it, as had been prophesied by the Right reasons, had long been dried up ; and it might not be fanciful Hon. Gentleman, and at the same time would satisfy the just to hope, that in parishes where hitherto the presence, or desires of the people of keland.—( Hear, hear.) It would even the existence, of the pastor was not known, except protect the Protestant clergy, and make the Church more when occasionally heard of as an absentee or pluralist, the Christian than it was at present.--(Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen soundof the church-going bell would still be heard.—( Cheers.) opposite arrogated to themselves the claim of representing But desirable and valuable as any such results from the mea- the Irish Protestant Church, but those sitting with him were sure would be, he held that they should be considered as in- just as much attached to the Church as tkose Hon. Members, considerable and of little moment, when compared with the but certainly they did not pretend to represe h nt the factious main object of the measure, which was that of c allin g u p on the Oran g emen of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) If tat measure, or country to ratify and maintain the present Church Establish- one of equal efficiency, were postponed, the collection of tithes meet in Ireland.—(Loud cheering.) In order that that de- in Ireland as well as the Church itself would be gone for sirable object should be attained, it was necessary that they ever.—( Hear, hear.) It had been stated that the plan on should give the Establishment itself such a decent conformity which the Noble Lord proceeded was altogether inapplicable with the extent of the duties to be perfor med b y it, as would to the state of Ireland, but he (Mr. Walker) knew a case in secure to it the affectionate esteem of those who conformed to his own neighbourhood in which the clergyman of one parish it, and the respectful forbearance of those who conscientiously received the sum of 4/. a year (as we understood the Hon. dissented from it, instead of the indignant reproval and angry Gentleman) for doing duty in the next parish in which there resistance to which it was at present exposed, and met with.— was no church. The Hon. Member made some further ob ( Loud cheering.) He could say in his conscience; that if he servations which were not distinctly heard in the gallery, in considered that the tendency of the measure were contrary to consequence of the impatience of the House. the principles of pure and true religion, no one would more Lord STANLEY said, that he would not dedetain the sincerely desire its failure — ( C h e ers ) —but if, as he sincerel y House more than a single Moment, but he felt boun te make believed, the tendency of the Bill would be to promote and one or two observations. He rose in the first place to express extend true religion, he trusted that nothing would occur to a hope, es there was not the slightest inclination to oppose the prevent its passing into a law.--(Cheers.) The Noble Lord introduction of the Bill, that the House would not go into a concluded by moving " For leave to bring in a Bill for the discussion on any of the details of it until it was laid on the commutation of tithes, and the promotion of the moral and re- table. He would, however, at the proper time explain the ligious education of the people of Ireland."—(The cheering, opinions which his Noble Friend knew that he entertained on after the Noble Lord sat down, continued for several minutes.) the subject of appropriation, as well as on other points involved The motion having been read from the Chair, in this measure. As to the subject of the appropriation of the Mr. HUM E then rose and begged to ask the Noble Lord revenues of the Church, lie need not tell his Noble Friend whether there was any provision made in this Bill for the alte- that be should give it his constant opposition. With reference ration or reduction of the Bishops and Chapters in Ireland? to the measure then proposed to be introduced by his Noble Lord MOR PET El was understood to say, that the object of Friend, he could not help saying that in boldness of legisla ! this Bill was different from the subject alluded to by the Hon. tion his Noble Friend, and those who sat with him, had sur. Member, and did not contain any such provisions. passed his (Lord Stanley's) most sanguine expectations.— : Sir HENRY HA RD ING E rose and said, that at that late ( Hear, hear, hear.) He protested against the principle of hour of the night he thought he should best consult the wishes appropriation involved in the plan of his Noble Friend, as well t of the House, if, upon this occasion, he followed the example of as against the details connected with it in his measure ; and 7 the Noble Secretary for the Home Department when the also with doing away with service in parishes in which there ; tithe question was lately brought forward by him ( Sir H. were not a certain number of attendants of the Church, as Hardinge.) The Noble Lord then said that he th o ug ht the well as destroying- those commutations for tithes which had best course to follow was, to agree to the resolution a nd allow existed for sevend years, and which could not be done with - the Bill to be introduced; and further said, that be did not out breaches of contracts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He rose, - mean, in not opposing the resolution, in any way to pledge him- however, chiefly for the . purpose of asking two or three 1 self to agree to the principles of the measure to be introduced. q uestions of his Noble Fieend with reference to the collection a He ( Sir H. Hardinge) therefore did not intend (nor did these of the revenues of the clergy. In the first place, whether, :a who thought with him) to give any opposition to the bringing in the sum appropriated for the payment of the clergy, the a in of the present Bill—(Hear) --but he distinctly reserved to State would he made liable, without deduction, for any losses I himself the liberty of opposing it on some future occasion, both that might arise in collection ? a in its principle and its details.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Lord MORPETH replied that it would. t Above all, he wished distinctly to state that he should oppose Lord STANLEY observed, that the next question he had a the principles of the appropriation clause by which the property to ask had reference to the benefit said to be conferred on the - of the Church was to be applied to State purposes.—(Loud landlords for taking upon themselves the collection of tithe. 1 cheers from the Opposition.) His objections to that appro- They had given a premium to the landlord for the collection ' priation were as strong as ever—( Cheers)—and no party feeling of tidies, and he wished to know how, in cases of difficulty, the ; would ever induce him to agree to a measure which lie believed collection was to be enforced ? Ha knew well the practical g to be full of mischief and danger.—( Cheers.) He could not difficulties that would attend a measure of this kind, and there g help saying that the measure, as it appeared from the statement fore was anxious to have a clear and distinct answer from his s o f the Noble Lord, was infinitely worse than lie could have cup- Noble Friend. Was it intended to enforce the payment from I, posed w ould have been brought forward by any Government. the landlord at the head of the estate, and give him the right a- —(Cheers from the Opposition. It was perfectly true, as of recovering or ta kin g it from the landlord immediately above of had been said by the Noble Lord, that his plan would meet the person occupying the property, and so ascending ? This n with many enemies.—( Cheers.) It was true, too, as the Noble question he put, as itawas a natte r of very great importance to Lord had remarked; that the measure had many heads , an d he the persons between the landlord and the occupying tenant, - - ( Sir H. Hardinge) would add, that though it had many and as their interests would be deeply affected by it. The heads it was calculated to please only one tail.—( Loud cheers third question he had to put regarded the parishes which would and laughter from the Opposition.) He believed, and he had be directly operated upon by this measure. His Noble Friend e . : no doubt that the same thing was anticipated by the Noble had stated that 810 parishes would come within elle operation I s himself, that this Bill would never pass this House—( Cheers of this Bill ; for it appeared if there were not fifty Protestants from the Opposition) ; and, at any rate, he wae quite sure in a parish, the Clergyman would be deprived of his income. - it would never become an Act of the Legislature.__-( Loud The Noble Lord bad said parishes, and not benefices ; he did cheers f rom th e some quarter.) He was aware that id seeing not know whether any distinction would arise under his this he was l a yi n g himself open to censure, as the °the: Noble Friend's Bill. Certainly he conceived great difficulty House h a ea re j ec t e a the Bill last year ; but he would appeal ;eight arise, and, above all, as he conceived the operation to to the H ouse w h e th e r the rejection of that Bill be the House be , compulso r y . A case mi g ht, and probably would arise, its of Lord s was no t j us tifi e d by the statement of the Noble Lord which. a Clergyman might be in possession of three livings, himself. By the Bill of last year the landlord was allowed —one, sae instance d of great extent, containing many Pro ed Church, w in adoining a bonus of 40/. per cent., while, by the present Bill, be was testants , who at ten b a u t t ho co u r the n es p . arat T iv i e le ly se fhilee;avrishPreost,the formed estan into ts j and a only to he all o w e d a bonus of 30/. per cent. He maintained parishe s there 11.'re therefore, that if any justification were required for the rejec- large number of 5. nt income for the clergyman from the tion for the Bill of last year, that justification was to be found unions, fu: nishe d a dm,: in the statement of the Noble Lord himself.—( Hear, h ear .) payment of tithes ; but it, appeared to him, as far as he un- He did not intend to follow the Noble Lord through th e diffe- e ete tood the measure of hitalloble Friend, that he..had made rent parts of his elaborate statement, but he could n o t avo id no prov ision for these unions, lant the charge of maintaining expressing a hope that the Noble Lord would omit that mise_ the c l e rgyman would be thrown oil ;he first parish. He wished cable arrang ement by which the clergymen were to receive to have this point explained; for if ::! - Ie principle was acted the pittance of 5/. for doing duty in a neighbouring parish, upon, many Protestant cler gy men would tea\d;,e_pdrtiovedbeoafraanlaregxe. wher e th e re were few or no Protestants. He hoped that the portion of their inc ome. tie should be g respect for the Church, which the Noble Lord had said he planation on this point from his Noble Friend. for it appeared venerated, would induce him to relieve that Church from the to him, if lie understood the subject, that it Weeld lead to ridicule of their granting a neighbouring clergyman 5.?. a year, great injustice. The last point he had to allude to had re fer doing the duty_ei a parish.--( Cheers.) He ( Sir Henry ference to the produce derived from the 840 parishes which his Hardinge) had all the objection now to the appropriation. Noble Friend had proposed to deprive of clergymen. If he clause which he ever had ; but when he heard the Noble understood his Noble Friend correctly, the whole of the pro. e- Lord say, th a t w h er e th e number of Protestants resident in a duce derived from those parishes would be the ,miserable ~...mt I parish was b e l ow fifty, the clergyman in that parish would be of 58,000/.—( Hear, hear, hear): at least that vas the amount nt, discontinued, he could not help stating that he thought that that he understood his Nobha Friend to state ; but he did not :13. arith met i ca l p ro p ort i on an d settlement full of danger.—( Loud believe that his Noble Friend for so small a pittance would ;re cheers.) Would the Noble Lord permit him to ask, if in proceed to act on so hazardous a principle —(Hear, hee . .) u.:- a case where the population was reduced by emig ratio n — He should not g o into the eventuation of the Bill until he Til: (H ear , h ear )—b y removal—( Hear, hear) —by assassination— had seen the whole of its details, but he felt bound to say that sat (Loud chee rs )—or any other cause of the same nature, to the he had never seen so violent a measure introduced in to mild ant number of forty-nine Protestants, would the appo i ntment of a a manner.—(llear, hear.) The speech of his Noble Friend ;-.) clergyman in such parish be on that account suspended. was remarkable for its calmness. lie wished the subject of ed 1 Lord MORPETH said that the case alluded to by the 1 the measure was as grateful to his mind as was the mild. speech 3e- Right Hon. Baronet could not arise, as it was already settled ,of his Noble Friend in introducing it. le- ,by the Report of the Commissioners what parishes would I Lord MO It PETH said he would very briefly answer the ion come under the operation of the Bill. I questions put to him by his Honourable Friend. In -answer in- • Sir HENRY HARDINGE would ask, then, where was to the first question, he 'did not propose a revision of all agree'. les, the justice of the arrangement if it were entirely retrospective? vents with reference to the commutation of tithes, but still per He would say more upon the subject at a proper season, but some cf them were open to revision. lie believed he would .us- not till the. Bill itself appeared. The Bill was, however, now secure the object they had in view without involvieg himself the. known, frog) the statement made by the Noble Lord, to ex. in any of the difficulties anticipated by his Noble Friend. Lit the Lker ;t of ise. not lout lity, it of ) in -3 his ught sing ound most pur were ►inis- entry n and .s for ist be e to a mac le ations ranee which ontri se has dealt istice, )n the ss be e that Hon• L hirn, ressio ibable L with a first viz., 'lll2Cl' Num