The Sun. — London, England, 1835-09-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. mencement of the Session I should have hailed it as the greatest blessing.—(Repeated cheering.) ROUSE OF L ORD S, S RPTE3f3S2 4 . Lord BROUGHAM—I rise to speak to order.—(G rea t Lord Dolmas took his se a t on t h e W oo l sac k at 5 o ' c l oc k . laughter.) If it had been the commencement of th e Ses sion I should never have taken the objection.---( Cheers. ) Irish Church Bill. Lord FARNHAM p resente d severa l pet i t i ons aga i nst t h e ' It is because it is the end of the session, and that w e h ave no On the moti on o f L or d DUNC ANNON the Grand time for all the business. Before they had very littl e b us i ness Juries (Irel an d) Bill went through Committee, the Report to do, and a great deal of time, but now there was a great to be recei ve d t o - morrow. deal of business, and no time to do it. Th e O r d ers o f t h e Lord BROUGHAM presente d some Returns from House were flexible.—( Cheers and laught er .) the Court o f Ch ancery, w hi ch he sa i d showed the perfect Lord ASHBURTON thought the Bill oug ht no t t o b e working of th e Bill f or regu l at i ng the o pressed forward further during the p resen t S ess i on , as t h e offices in that Court. Already there was a sav i ng o f 51,350 1 . and eventually they parties most interested had had no prop er no ti ce o f t h e Bill. Lord HOLLAND said, that the eff ec t o f th e N o bl e L or d' s would amount to 100,000/. The Returns were orde re d t o b e pr i nte d. vote, if in a majority, would b e , mos t un d ou b te dl y , to perpetuate till the next Session, the state in which LAW INQUIRY. the Dublinpolice were at present. He admitted that no laws The Nohle and Learned Lord then said he had a should be passed, without fair and due notice being given duty to perform towards the Commissioners of Law Inquiry to all his Majesty's subjects.—( Hear, hear.) When this Session, and 42 he hoped it was now near a close, he however he looked at this Bill, he found that it had been trusted their Lordships would hear with him then for a few carried through all its several stages in the usual manner, minutes. That Commission was appointed in 1833, and and he should like to know what right any Corporation had to they had made two most valuable Reports, and he had call upon Parliament to communicate with them. never seen such a delicate and laborious tesk performed with The Earl of HADDINGTON contended that the Corpo such skill and judicious temperance as they had done. They ration of Dublin had a right to state their objections to the Bill. had proceeded to investigate the matter in all its bearin g s, and Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but to consider whether it would be advisable to make a digest, Viscount DUNCANNON would not give their Lordships first of the Criminal Law; secondly, of the Statute Law; the trouble of dividing. and thirdly, whether it would be possible or advisable to make The amendment that the Bill be committed that day six a Digest of the Common or unwritten Law. He was aware months was then put and agreed to. that there was a diversity of opinion upon that The Bill is consequently lost. point amongst the most eminent lawyers, but he would ear- LETTERS PATENT BILL. neatly recommend their Lordships to give these Reports Lord BROUGHAM moved that a message be sent to their most serious consideration.__( Hear, hear.) It had been the Commons to desire a conference on the subject of some said in some place, he w ou ld not say where, that all these amendments made by them in the Letters Patent Bill, and Commissioners had don e , m ight have been done in three from which their Lordships dissented.—Agreed to. weeks—there was no doubt of it, if they did not care how it CHARITIES' COMMISSIONERS BILL. was done; but "if 'twere well when 'tis done, then 'twere The Marquis of LANSDOWNE move d t h at th i s Bill b e well it were done quiekly," as somebody says.—(Laughter.) read a third time. Those Commissioners had given up the wh o l e o f t h e i r t i me, and they could not have made their Rep or t s i n t h ree or four After a few words f rom L or d E LLE NB OROUG H, Lord BROUGHAM said he gave up an objection he had months if they had not. Those Reports were ably drawn up, to one of the provisions of this Bill out of deference to his and if Noble Lords would attend to those Reports, they would rise from the perusal of them with th e same i mpression on Noble Friend, but he mus t protest aga i nst suc h an unheard of and dangerous p rece d ent as t h e C ommons h an di ng over to their minds that they had mad e upon hi s. —( Hear, hear.) the Crown in the l um p, t h e power o f appo i nt i ng forty-four He would abstain from making any mot i on at that moment officers, and fixing the amoun t o f t h e i r sa l ar i es . H e h imself but he begged leave to state th at t h e su bj ect was not new. brought was There was a resolution standin g on t h e i r L ordships ' Journals then sa in a Bill on this id to be too late.subj — ect two months ago, and it him an laugh.) This reminded h in favour of that propositio n; t h ere f ore h e was only asking of the old adage, " That one man m i g h t steal a horse while them to re-affirm what they h a d f ormer l y approved of. He another might not look over a h e d ge . would call the attention of th e H ouse to t hi s most important " —(Laug hter. ) subject, at a very early period nex t sess i on o f Parliament. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE. said th at the power which this Bill gave t o th e C rown was not g i ven now f or DUBLIN POLICE BILL. the first time. A similar power was given by the Ist and Lord DUNCANNON in moving that the House do re- 2d of William IV. solve itself into a Committee on this Bill, stated that he had Lord BROUGHAM did not mean to say that the thing held communications with the Government in Ireland was in itself unprecedented, but he objected to the number on the subject of this Bill, and he was authorized of offices given to the Crown to deal with. to assure their Lordships that the Corporation of Dublin was The Bill was then read a third time. not interested in any way in this Bill, and that no part of their LETTERS PATENT BILL.—CONFERENCE. revenues were taken from them by it.—( Hear, hear.) The Commons having declared themselves ready to hold a He was informed that the present duties of the police were conference with their Lordships on the amendments made in not atttended to in the city of Dublin ; that the Police Force the above-mentioned Bill, the following Noble Lords were ap were inadequate to preserve the peace of that city ; and that pointed the managers of the conference for their Lordships : many of them were feeble old men, who were neither able to The Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Devon, the Earl of protect themselves nor the public.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Shaftesbury, the Bishop of Bristol, Lord Auckland, the Earl This Bill had been approved of by his Majesty's Government Winchelsea, Lord Strafford, and the Marquis of Conyngham. in Ireland, who thought it their duty to propose this Bill with Their Lordships withdrew to meet the Commons, and the a view to preserve the peace of the City of Dublin. If their House adjourned during pleasure. In about a quarter of an Lordships thought this Report sufficient he hoped they would hour they returned, and the Speaker having resumed his seat resolve themselves into a Committee on the Bill. on the Woolsack, business was proceeded with. Lord FARNHAM objected to this Bill being proceeded The Workhouse Property Bill was passed through a Com in at that late period of the Session, and without any commu- mince, and agreed to with amendments. nication with the authorities of Dublin. He, Lord Farn ham,had received a letter from the Lord Mayor of that On the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the city, on Monday, stating that he had never seen the amen dmeuts of this Bill having been moved, Bill until half an hour before he wrote the letter. He The Earl of WICKLOW maintained that the measure was would ask whether it was proper that a measure involving unconstitutional. Earl Gre •in the East Retford case had ob the whole peace of Dublin should be brought to a second jected on principle to the Indemnity Bill which was brought in. reading without the magistracy being made acquainted with it ? The all was founded in injustice, and would encourage per- The Noble Earl concluded by moving that the word " now" jury. It had originated in the inquisitorial inquiries which be loft out, for the purpose of inserting the words " that day had been entered upon in another place, into the circum three months." stances which attended acts of bribery, which it was alleged Earl WICKLOW rose for the purpose of suggesting had been committed in certain boroughs. Those inquiries had to the Noble Viscount the propriety of withdrawing the been proceeded with by Committees of the other House, and Bill for the present session. He did this from a desire it had been asked why this Bill had not passed into a law? He that it should not appear that the House rejected Bills that were really in the mse l ves goo d ; b ut the Bill having with been less it vsas that th ose t o w h om it h a d b een i ntrusted in that brought forward h ast il y , an d w i thout consultation House were ashamed of it. H e was sat i s fi e d t h at the Noble the Corporation of D u bli n , it was impossible th a t it could and Learned Lord was n o t anx i ous t h at t hi s Bill should pass, He therefore receive that tru s ted the Noble delibera tion Viscount in the course would of the presentwihdr Session. otherwise he would have ex p resse d hi s opinion strongly in favour Bill. wi t hdrew the of it. The Noble and L earne d L or d, however, hadabstained from saying anythi ng i n it s d e f ence . Th e N o b le Earl concluded Viscount DUNCANNON did not t hi n k that the Noble Earl had shown a n y reason w h atever for withdrawing the Bill. m o t m .. wiss very defective. ° ovine- that the Bill be read a s econ d t i me t hi s d ay t h ree nths It was acknowledged on a ll h an d s t h at the police of Dublin Lord BROUGHAM observed that a mos t unusua l accu sation had just been brought aga i ns t hi m b y t h e No b le Earl. ls'arl WICKLOW did not w i s h to vote upon the Bill ; but He was oat hitherto aware th a t lie was slow i n s t a ti ng his if he was compelled, h e must vote against it, in order to sentiments to their Lordships, b u t t h oug h t t h at he was open to protect the rights of th e C orporat i on o f D ublin. Lord' PLUNKETT, in su pp ort i ng t h e Bi ll, said that the a charge of a directly o pp os it e c h aracter. He was satisfied police of' Dublin was in th e most s h ame f u l state. In that this 13;11 or one of a simil ar character must be carried ere going to long. The experience of the House of Commons showed the four Courts, it was a thousand to one if a person's pocket that some measure of thi s kind was absolutely neces sar y, was not picked before you go t th ere . Th e manner in which and the other branches o f th e L eg i s la ture were bound to the inquiry had been carried on ren d ere d i t i mposs ib le to sup- act upon tbr.;s opinion. The only mode of preventing bribery pose the Corporation of Dublin must not have been aware of was by a ma nasure of this kind, or by extending the fran what was going on. He did not think the Corporation of Dublin had any feeling upon the subject. chile to a mu eh greater extent than at present. Lord ABLNGE R was satisfied that the passing of this Earl FARNHAM had received a letter from the Lord Bill was the best mode of encouraging corrupt witnesses, Mayor of Dublin, stating that there was the strongest objec- who theiriselv es had been guilty of bribery, to bring accusa tion to the Bill. Lord PLUNKETT had no doubt that the pickpockets of tions against innocent persons. It might, indeed, fairly be Dublin had great objections to the Bill, but what objections termeda Bill for encouraging corrupt witnesses to commit the Corporation of Dublin could have to it he was at a loss to per The amendment was then put and agreed to. The conjecture. - Bill was . c c nsequently lost. The Duke of WELLINGT ON complained that the Cor- SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL. On the motion of the Marquis o f L ANSD 0 WNE , t hi s porO ation of the City o f D u bli n, who were charged with the Bill C management and con d uct o f the Police, had not been con went t hroughommittee. a,ultad upon the m easure . Th e l etter which he(the Duke of W.) TITHE IN ISTALMENT SUSPENSION (IRELA ND) L .dreceived from th e L or d M ayor stated that he had never seen On the mo,ti' on of Viscount MELBOURNE, t hi s Bill was BILL. she Bill until th at morn i ng, and it was impossible in s o s h ort a time to exa m i ne i ts d eta i ls. The Recorder also stated th a t he read a second time. was not in the House when the Bill had been introduced, MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL. and had not seen it until he had arrived in Dublin. Viscount MELBOURNE said that he rose to move that The Noble Duke then read the letter of the Lord Mayor their Lordships,: should take into consideration the amendments which set forth, that in a measure so seriously affecting the of the House o f Commons on the amendments in the Muni rights and privileges of the Corporation, its members had not cipal Corporath ms Bill sent down to that House. In doing so been consulted, and that at so late a period of the session it he did not feel i t necessary to detain their Lordships at any would be impossible to examine its details. Under these cir- great length. They had already discussed the principles on cutnstances, ho (the Duke of Wellington) trusted that the which the measn ire proceeded, as well as the general details of Bill would not be persevered in, it, and also the general bearing of most of the amendments The Earl of RADNOR thought it hard that a Bill which that had been in troduced into it. He would shortly state the was admitted on all hands to be a good one, should be lost on a import of the an tendments ; but before lie proceeded to per mere matter of form, and which appeared to him t o b e an form this task, h e would sho r tly a ll u d e t o anot h er top i c. He idle matte r o f form.—( Hear, hear.) The Recorder of Dub- trusted their Loi dships would allow him to express his earnest lin was in London at the time the Bill was introduced, but the h ope, and indeed his confident expectation, that in that stage Recorder complained that he was net in the House at of the measure, 'what aver might be the differences of opinion the time.—(Hear, hear.) Whether he was in the House as to the motive of the amendments, or whatever heats might or not, he must have seen its published votes, and ha ve occurred in the course of the previous discussions, or in would have informed the Corporation of Dublin that ma intaining particulnir opinions, they would at least approach ench a measure was under discussion. So far as he the Earl the . subject with calmness and moderation, and with an of Radnor, knew no objections had been stated to the measure, an thous desire to. give it a fair and impartial consideration— nor no petitions presented against it.—(Hear, hears) Under ( I lear, hear)— and would also manifest an anxiety to meet the these circumstances, when the state of Dublin was r-1 ouse of Commons in that spirit of conciliation which he such as had been represented by his Noble and Learned co aild not help feeling ,had been so strongly exhibited by Friend below him, (Lord Plunkett), and when it was tb tat branch of the Legislature, and that both Houses would admitted on the other side that the Bill was a good one u nil to their efforts to bring to a successful termination this .—(Cries of " No, no")—the Noble Earl opposite hasi dis- nee; isure, of such great public importance and of such deep tinctly said so—he thought it would be quite unreas 1 ble I put dic interest, and which, he might say, the great majority on the ground that the Corporation had not been consulted, uaa t; of their Lordships admitted was called for by the public reject the Bill, fee ling, as well as by the peculiar situation in which the Lord WHARNCL IFFE complained that no notice had bo dies were placed t o w hi c h t h e s measure app li e d . — ( Hear, been give n to t h e Magistrates and Corporation of Dublin- h( t ar.) He trusted, therefore, they would approach the sub whose interests it affected. It was not to be expected their js set without heat, and wou ld carry i nto e ff ect a measure w hi ch Lorilships would assent to the Bill under suc h circumstances. 'ae trusted a majority of the House only wished to be framed It was not a mere matter of form. The Corporation ought in such a way as appeared to it to be most advantag eous to to hates an oppo r t un i ty o f meeting and considering the Bill the country.—( Hear.) Th e H ouse o f C ommons had ad otherwise it w ou ld b e a matter of injustice. ' mitted all the amendmen.ts introduced by their Lordships as to Lord LIOWARD of EFFINGHAM said the Recorder of the preservation of the rights of freemen, with the exception Dublin was in town on the day after the Bill had been intro- of that exempting therm from tolls : a right which had intro duced, and there was then plenty of time for the Corporation duced and kept up the .greatest animosities and dissensions in to have objected as no doubt he had informed them of the boroughs, and had be en most p re j u di c i a l t o th em , an d at t h e matter. same time was most unfair and unjust. He trusted that this The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said their Lordships Howse would not consider it to be their duty to disagree with i hfs exception to the rights of freemen which the Commons were about to throw out a Bill, not on its merits, for they had 1 gad' introduced into the Bill. The next amendment entirely - not been discussed, but they were goi ng td to throw it out be- , rid Away with the two lists of burgesses introduced by that cause certain parties had not been consul Their Lordships were going to throwe u po n it. Hear. , Ho- use—one list containing the names of those eligible to cha p r ß g e e i;i d i,b w ow i w t a k s_ t a stigma upon the s'er re in the council, and the other the list of the general bur- Corporation, for surely they were not the police which was now one of the worsturE get! ,ses. This point was connected with the question of quali ever, even if they were to report against th u e ro fie; .tion, which he should explain. The House was aware that ps should not pas $ the Bill was sent up from the House of Commons without any that any reason why their Lo was none why t hat 9' the Bill ? Surely at all events itcla i ise requiring a. qualification as to those persons who were should not d: scull its merits. If the p olice was now under , ,i, p,? 1 el( .cted members of the town-council. Their Lordships that they were, management of the Corporation, he lust s ay last hands the management of it o ug ht to be continued f• 7 le he .d thought fit to introduce a qualification—namely, that He supported the Bill, because in his ip a in d ipn it would estahli isE r a o e p e e to the c on t' ae town-council should be chosen from one-sixth of a• the freemen who paid the highest rates, and also that a good police in place of one that was sh ,in the larger boroughs a person elected to the town try, and he was certain the very worst in n- I council should prove that he was possessed of 1,0001., that was ground enough for going into Committee N.:lllthdesußrie ly and in the smaller boroughs of 5001. The Commons ad- The Marquis of WESTMEATH:id there were our s rvle,toandregouthi: 11. mitted the principle of qualification. They acceded to the roux Acts in existence, same of recognized, the powers ' of' the Cworpluohratgioa and dsa point n e- general principle, but they altered the nature of the qual- Ts cation which had been sent down to them. They adopted the the police of the City of Dablin. This wards , .re rule that in those boroughs which were divided into four ot the qualification should be 1,000/., or the person elected should of injary, but of insult to the Corporation support it. He admitted the Bill was a good one ,b e would n establish a good system of police, but let prop a e u r d x v i v o u t u i ot occupy a house rated at 30/. ; and that in boroughs under four ld wards the pecuniary qualification should be 5001., or the mem be given, and if a Bill was introduced early next Sess i on, ce her of • - the town-council should occupy a rateable house of the would most wi ll ingly g i ve h is assent to it , he value of 151. a year. He couldon, not help feeling that the qua. The Earl of LIMERICX opposed the Bill, but e lification introduced by the Commons got rid of the invidious inaudible. 'as distinction of having two lists of voters, which all persons Lord HATHERTON did not collect from the letter l ikely ß t y o the Lord Mayor that he disapproved of this Bill. Withref conversant with the state of the boroughsstated of lead to ill feelings, and to engender bi tter ence to the statewasan i mosities. they got rid of the vexatious inquiry into believedthat of the Dublin police he would state af e er- this change, also, would be the result of a pecuniary qualification limit the being subjected to inquiry. He trusted, as their Lordship s In the course•of admitted, that they would the Commander of the For nun found the principle of qualifications impropriety of continuin ees made a representation sc the consider the Commons' arrangement satisfactory, and that there the property of the C g a military detachment to pre amendments. The qua depredations itect would be no objection to adopt their the soldiers to be r The Lord Lieutenant ord t the time of election emoved, and the .ered lification also was not only to be given a depredations were committed result was that i Feat into the town-council, but was to be continuous ; but at the applied to the Lord Lie • The Director of the ( :anal same time guards were introduced to prevent vexatious ques left to depend on the l• Lieutenant, and r f emonstrated against I also disagreed to po ice, and in s pite aeing tinning of the qualification. The Commons of the Commander of the Forces , of the represent ;arson an amendment which preserved justices for life. The House back, and thus the ni . • the d er back, was or deted well knew that a strong feeling prevailed in many places police. illtary were dsbes the duties ( in offic e . met the against continuing any pa e of the old Corporati ons . Lord VVESTMEATII rose taiadreu th 1.1 If therefore the amendnaeul as sent down, was preserved, i t met by loud cries of ‘, order a r /"Question," e ouse, Le an d o si at was would produce the great-0 1 ill feeling. The Bill originally The Noble Marquis persimecl ` 1 " 11 b ier s."..)ok enacted that the to . yroleouncil should only consist of mayor Lord B Lordships had chosen to preserve the R 0 UGHAM rote !, and moved h and burgesses; their order be read against any Menwei itt3efdtine• ore t " s ,ta the dignity of aldermen, and proposed that the aldermen should "—(Tremendous cheering , ore than 0 from tho Opposition Peers, , '"), not only be elected for l ife, but that the first body of aldermen tior should be composed of those who are at continued forsome time.) t: k in each CorFora , Lord WICKOW...if thiffl had been done at th 9 Cf • ,' -• 4 present mem bers of the Corporation. The Com:nons disa ed to this, as well as regarded the aldermen being elected - 05; • THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 1535. for life, as in the first appointed to that office under this Bill being selected from the members of th e p resen t corporate bo dies. Instead of this, they proposed that aldermen should be elected for six years; that one-half should go out at the end of three years ; and that the other half should go out at the end of six years. In pursuance of the principle which had been strongly urged in argument in this House, and in order to give the measure fair play, and produce that degree of sa tisfaction which was so desirable, and to allow it a chance of success in the cities and boroughs to which it was to be ap plied, it was desirable that the whole sytem should begin afresh, and the whole of the ancient Corporations should be removed ; and they therefore disagreed with their Lordships' amendments, that the justices should continue for life. They also disagreed with the amendment that the town-clerks should be elected for life ; but had insisted that they should remain in office only during pleasure. They also disagreed with the amendment to continue the present town-clerks. It was unnecessary for him to go into the reasons, as they had already been repeatedly urged in the discussions which had taken place. Their Lordships had also proposed that the settlement of the boundaries of the boroughs should be left to the revising barristers. The Commons agreed to this, but made an addition to the amendment, namely, that the regulations proposed by the revising barristers should be sanctioned by the King in Council. This was thought necessary, as it was not deemed advisable that so much power should be left in the hands of the revising bar risters without control or appeal, however well they had dis charged the important duties entrusted to them. The Com mons had also disagreed to the amendment which was intro duced into the Bill, which prevented any but members of the Church of England having a voice in the distribution of any Church patronage connected with the corporate towns. He thought the amendment, when it was introduced, was wrong, and went on a false principle, and that it was adopted to meet what appeared to him to be an ideal and chimerical cause of alarm. He did not think that any evil was likely to arise from the distribution of the Church patronage by the town council. One of the arguments of a Right Reverend Prelate, whom he did not in his place, in favour of the amendment, was rather fanciful. He said that Dissenters in the town council might contrive to appoint an inefficient clergyman to any place connected with the Church, in order to give greater weight and influence to the minister of the Dissenters. This certainly was possible, but surely it was not a sufficient reason to justify the violation of the great principle which he was sa tisfied was violated by the amendment. The Commons altoge ther disagreed from this, but they had not made this part of the Bill as it formerly was, but they had adopted a course which had been suggested in one of the debates in that House, which was to compel the sale of all advowsons and other preferments in the gift of the Corporations, and that the proceeds should be invested in the public funds, and the interest should be de voted to the purposes of the borough, and aid the borough fund. This arrangement met the objection which was raised by their Lordships ; and at the same time it was desirable that the patronage of the Church should be taken from the hands of those bodies, which, although fairly composed, were not so well qualified or capable of exercising a sound judgment in the distribution of patronage of this nature, as an individual who acted on his own responsibility and judgment. He confidently anticipated that the House would agree to this alteration in its amendment. There was another amendment to which it was necessary for him to allude. The Bill, as sent up by the Commons, enacted that the town-councils should recommend certain persons as Magistrates to the Crown, out of which number they should always be selected. That House struck this out of the Bill, and placed all the power in , the Crown. The Commons had replaced the original clauses, and he thought they had done so on grounds which entitled them to great weight. He thought that previous to the appointment of justices, it was necessary that there should be some responsi ble persons, instead of emanating from hidden sources, and which would insure na responsibility. The Commons had also made very considerable alterations in the schedules. They had made alterations in the Bill as it had been sent down to them, by which all towns containing less than 9,000 inhabitants were not to be divided into wards. He agreed with them in thinking that it would be highly prejudicial to divide towns containing less than that number of persons into wards. Many towns, therefore, which were included in the schedules which were to be divided into wards would not be so ; and also, the larger towns would be divided into a less number of wards than that House had proposed. He believed that the alteration of the House of Commons in this respect were desirable, and he trusted that Noble Lords would be slow to interfere with it. He recommended these amendments to the House. Most of them were merely restorations of the clauses which originally stood in the Bill ; and those which were not so were adopted on principles in which he entirely agreed. It was therefore unnecessary for him to say that he gave them his .most cordial support. He would not take up longer time, but - would conclude with once more recommending the amendments: to the cool, the careful, the serious, and the impartial consideration of the House.—( Hear, hear,) Lord L YND HURST said that after the course which the discussion on this subject had taken, he was entitled to claim the i asdulgence of the House for a short time. He considered i t as a duty to himself and to the House to make some obs, !mations on the amendments that had been made in this Bill (by the other House—nit was a duty in some respects pleasure .ble to him, and in other respects painful ; but he felt it to be a. duty to address the House on this subject. After all that had been said out of doors as to the conduct of the majority of the House with respect to this Bill, and after what had been said. by the Noble Lords opposite on the same subject, to which hi a did not intend particularly to advert, he could not help ails ing to what had been gained by the dili gent attention oft hie House to this subject, as well as shortly calling the attenti of Noble Lords to those points which re mained for discuss in n. The first question to which he intended to advert involved a n important and beneficial alteration which had been made in th, e Bill in that House. He thought that every principle of jt tstice demanded that they should preserve the rights of fr eeme n. Those rights possessed by freemen would have been enti rely - extinguished by the Bill as introduced into the House cif Cc iminons. He was anxious not to extend the rights of fre met , but to place them on the same footing, and in the same situation, as if the Bill had not passed. He and those with whom he acted, opposed this part of the mea sure, and the r esult of their opposition was successful. They had established : the rights of freemen to the full extent they now existed, and they appealed to the House of Commons on the subject, and fche result of the appeal was, that the House of Commons, in a sl )irit of conciliation, and with a desire to meet the wishes of t hF Lt House, had assented to the amendment.— ( Hear, hear, hens. ) If they had asked nothing more he thought that they had ac, impiished a great deal by obtaining this point; he therefore corveratulated the House on succeeding in esta blishing the rig]] is of f reemen—rights which could not be taken from the possessu rs witl lout committing great injustice.—( Hear, hear.) Another point to which he wished to allude was that one of the right ; of freemen was established, as he thought fairly, after the long, the deliberate, and the painful dis cussions of the l Zeform Act—he meant the right of voting for Members of Parli 'ament. The Bill, as originally introduced, went to the extent of preventing the perpetuity of their rights. The Bill went int •'J Comrnitte e, as he found from the votes of the other House, Ind every e ffort was made to preserve their rights, but the attempt was unsuccessful. The Bill was re- committed, and , ss other unsuccessful attempt was made for the same purpose, at tit was not until the third reading that the promoters of the Bill consented that their right should be continued to the extent allc .wed in the Reform Act. When the Bill came into that Housi he stated that he did not think that it was right i a a Bill for the regulation and improvement of municipal corpo rations to unsettle individual rights which were preserved by the Reforn i Act, which they had been told was a final measure . He th'i .1 proposed that the other rights of freemen should be preser wed, and his proposition met with the greatest oppos . itio n, of • which, however, he did not com plain ; the subject wa s fully discussed, and the House sanc tioned his proposit for 1. Du ring the discussions on this point, allusions had been n Jade to the alleged bad conduct of the freemen at election s, but he did not believe that the assertions made were justified I ay the conduct of the freemen since the passing of the Refa cm Act, whatever it might have been be fore. If the accust ttion was just, it ought to have been made and urged at the time the Reform Bill was in progress through Parliament , but it ought not to be raised now with a view of destroyin g these rights. The Noble Lords oppo site were the great promoters of the Reform Act, and in that measure the right ,s of freemen were admitted to the fullest extent ; therefor e the propositions introduced into this Bill appeared directly at variance with the admissions they made in the form er measure. His first object was to preserve the rights of free men in an equal, valid, and binding form, as they existed whet i the Reform Bill passed. The exertions he had made on this subject had been successful, and the Bill was sent down tra the other House with amendments to that effect. The H a , use of Commons had adopted those amend ments he truste a, from a conviction of the justice of the case, but most sure', y in a spirit of conciliation. This was the great point to which in the first instance he had taken the liberty of callin g the attention of the House. Another point of great import Lime was that of qualification. It appeared to him to be absob rtely necessary, in consequence of the groat extent of the Jecting body, to establish some qualification with regard to those who. were to be elected members of the town-council. He was s urprised, when he stated the reasons why he though t this desirable to the House, that his proposi tion met with s tch violent and energetic opposition from Noble Lords opposite fa I.Te did not expect such a degree of opposi tion, because he thoc ight that he was acting in analogy With the principle adopted in a Bill which had been prepared and laid on the "Able by his Noble and Learned Friend after great considerat:iur i, and which was adopted by the Government ; therefor. ; he was surpr. Ised at the opposition made to his sug gestio'4. But when his I\ Coble and Learned Friend's Bill was be fore the Hroive, they hea rd nothing respecting the aristocracy of wrJalth which the qualifit "ation would introduce. He had then Winded not only to the principle of qualification, but had also adverted to tl to mode of carrying it into effect ; and he was then charged vrith being an innovator. The mode of qualification, however, which he proposed, existed in a mea sure which had been intr educed by Noble Lords opposite, and which was now in opet motion. He had not heard any just grounds of opposition tc • the principle ; and the Noble Lord who was formerly Secret ary for Ireland, who bad made some observations on the subj lect, clearly showed by the tenor of his remarks that he did not understand the question. The measure, thus altered, we at down to the other House. He did not mean to dwell on wit at It passed in the House of Com mons; but the question of qualification was admitted without a division. The only division that took place was on one of the details relative to the qualification ; and it was defeated by a majority of more than seven t.o one. The other House of Par liament had sanctioned ,the F rinciple of qualification. It was true that there was a greet ifference between the description of qualification adopted by the other House, and that adopted by him ; especially in rega .rd to this point, that the qualifica tion adopted by the other . He ills° was considerably more con tracted and more exclusive 1 ti) an that which had been proposed by their Lordships, and which was contained in the Bill when it left their Lordships' House. He had taken great pains to make inquiry into this subject. He had obtained returns for the purpose of showing the average amount at which persons would be rated who should have been admitted into the coun cil under the qualification clause, as it left their Lordships' House, and he had ascertained that it would have been 171. a year.—( Cries of " Hear.") The other House had, how ever, adopted a different qualification, by which a large por tion would be excluded. He thought he was safe in saying, that one-half of those who were admitted should be' rated at 301. a year. The consequence was, that the alteration made in the other House excluded all between 171. and 301. So that if he (Lord Lyndhurst) had drawn the line within which the choice was to be made too tight, the House of Commons had drawn the line still tighter. His only object in proposing the qualification at all was in order to take care that those managing the affairs of the borough should be chosen from such a class as was likely to ensure the proper discharge of the duties entrusted to them, both as regarded the boroughs and the public. He had been accused of proposing a qualification that was bad in itself, and without precedent, but the reason which induced him to propose it was, that it was more flexible, and more easily accommodated to the circumstances of all bo roughs, than any other which could be devised. He did not complain, however, of the substitute—( Hear)—but, on the contrary, he assented frankly and cheerfully to it.—( Cheers.) The next point to which he would allude was that of the licensing of public houses. This was a point to which Noble Lords on both sides of the House considered of great importance, although they took different views of it. He (Lord Lyndhurst), as well as many Noble Lords who acted with him, concurred in opinion, that placing the power of granting licenses in the hands of the town-council would lead to numberless evils—( Hear, hear)—that it would lead to an infinity of bad jobs and mis chief of all kinds. It was upon that account that he had proposed that the clause should be expunged. It was ex punged, and the retention of it had been contended but feebly or at least not strongly, even by the Noble Lords on the op posite side of the House, and the alteration had passed the other House of Parliament without even one word being said in opposition to it, or for the restitution of the clause. These were important and, in his opinion, most salutary amend ments upon the original Bill, which had been carried by their Lordships at the very time when they were accused out of the House of being in the act of mutilating and destroying the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) There was another change which had been proposed by him, and in which he had the assist ance of his Noble and Learned Friend opposite—he meant that regarding the administration of public charities. As the Bill came from the other House, its provisions in rcrspect to the administration of charities were objectionable in the ex treme. —( Hear, hear, hear.) The guardians of these chari ties, without being called upon for either qualification or se curities, were allowed to have the management of funds to an enormous amount, as well at a large amount of real pro perty. His Noble and Learned Friend cordially co-operated with him in opposing this clause, and they struck it out of the Bill, thereby leaving the administration of the charities for a time in the hands of those who had formerly adminis tered them, and who had administered them generally, he be lieved, in a creditable and satisfactory manner, in order that Parliament might in the meantime arrange seme legislative enactment applicable to those as well as to other public charities. These, he thought their Lordships would see, were great objects gained by their labours.—.( Hear, hear.) There was one other subject to which he would allude, and it was one of great importance. He meant that which regarded the disposition of the Church property now in the possession and under the controul of the corporations. Ile could assure their Lordships that this was a subject which had occupied more of his consideration and thoughts, and more of the thoughts of several other Noble Lords with whom he acted, than any other part of the subject. He was sorry to find that the amendment which had been carried by their Lord ships upon his motion had given rise to such keen debate and warm feelings in the other House ; but he could assure the House that it never was his intention to hurt the feelings of the Dissenters. He knew that it had been said by some Hon. Gentlemen, Members of the other House, who arc supposed to represent the Dissenting body, that it was not the intention of the Dissenters to interfere with the patronage of the Established Church, but he wished to put it out of their power to do so. All he wished was, that the Dissenters should not interfere with the Established Church, more than the members of the Established Church interfered with the Dissenters. The question had been asked him, how he would define a member of the Established Church? He knew the difficulty of answering the question, and the difficulty there might occasionally be in ascertaining whe ther a man was a Dissenter or not. Still, however, he thought some check necessary. As to the amendment which had since been made in the other House, and which was now before their Lordships, he had himself prepared a similar clause—( Hear, hear, and cheers) ; but he knew the difficulty of proposing it. He was aware of the attacks which would be made upon him, if any such proposi tion came from him. He was convinced if he had proposed it that he would have been charged with plundering the Corpo rations of their Ecclesiastical patronage, for the purpose of investing the Right Reverend Prelates with it—(Hear)—and he knew that he would be further told by the Dissenters, that many of the Corporations who now held Ecclesiastical pro perty were composed of Dissenters ; and since none of the evils which were dreaded had occurred during the period when those Corporations administered that property, he would be asked what right he had to force those Corporations now to dispose of it? He knew that those objections would be brought against such a clause as this, if introduced by him ; and he, therefore, had thought of introducing what he con sidered a more vague and general clause, and one not so effectual_( Hear, hear)—trusting, in a great measure, to the honour of those who dissented from the Established Church not to interfere in regard to the Church patronage. Their Lord ships had thus, by their exertions, protected the rights of freemen, they had established the principle of qualification, they had rescued charities from the dangers to which they were exposed, and had established a safe rule regarding Church patronage. These, he would say, were great results from their Lordships' exertions.—( Hear, hear.) He would not say that these results were owing to his exertions, be cause they were not produced by him alone, but also by those who thought with him, and acted in unison with him.—( Hear.) The amendments had only been intro duced to their Lordships' attention by him, but they were the production of many Noble Lords, who had assisted in the la bour. In fact, the amendments were the joint act of all.— ( Cheers.) He now came to a question which had been taken up by himself personally. He meant the alteration made in the other House upon their Lordships amendment regarding the continuance of aldermen in office. By the amendment which he had proposed, and which was acceded to by their Lordships, aldermen were to continue to hold their offices for life ; and the other officers of the corporation were also hold their present appointments for life. He considered, he had always considered, and he still continued to consider, that amendment one of great importance and efficiency. He con sidered that the composition of the common-council, when an nually filled up by popular election, would be liable to be con stantly acted upon by agitators and other violent individuals. He thought that this state of matters would be apt to produce a great uncertainty and inconvenient want of uniformity in the administration of the corporate affairs ; and he thought it, therefore, absolutely necessary that a certain proportion of the council should be, at least, to a certain degree, per manent, and independent of the popular choice. He had, therefore, proposed that one-third of the council should hold their offices for life. He thought at the time that their Lordships had judged wisely in adopting this propo sition, and he had since seen no reason to alter his opi nion. He had found the same principle sanctioned by a Bill introduced by the Noble Lord opposite, to which he had had frequent occasion to allude. He was glad to find that principle for which he contended. The House of Commons had certainly not agreed that any part of the council should be for life, but they consented that they should hold their offices for six years, which rendered them in a great degree in dependent. They had thus adopted the principle, although, in his opinion, they had not gone far enough with it. With regard to the continuance of the present aldermen in their offices, he had felt the greatest anxiety that they should do so, and he could not but regret that the House of Commons had objected to that part of their Lordships' amendments. He looked at the Bill and asked what was the intention of those who were its promoters ? Their object was not to annul the Corporations, it was not to repeal all the powers which they held, but to amend the Corporations.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask them, and it was natural that he should ask, what were the charges against the present aldermen that they should be removed, or what were the practical defects which could not be remedied without the removal of the present officers ? He had attended to the arguments made use of in their Lordships' House, and he had now read the argu ments made use of in the other House to justify a Reform of the Corporations, and he found that the evils com plained of were principally four. The first was the prin ciple of self-election ; the second, the bad administration of the public funds, and bad superintendence of the corpo rate accounts ; the third, the improper distribution of local patronage; and, fourthly, the bad administration of justice. These were the heads of all the objections brought against Corporations as they at present stood. Now, if Parliament considered it necessary to amend the charters of the Corpo rations, what ought to be considered ? They ought to look to the mischiefs complained of—they ought to take the evils which were known to exist—and be now assured that all those complaints and evils were well founded, and apply a re medy. They were not justified, however, in going further, nor in speculating upon evils which might possibly have existed. Now he would aver that, without removing any one of the officers, all the evils complained of might be removed. Their Lordships had adopted all the provisions made by the Bill for remedying the evils complained of. But why should they go further? And above all, why remove officers who hold their offices by the King's charter—( Hear, hear)—against whom there is no well-founded complaint, but, on the con trary, who, as far as appeared by the evidence which had been heard at their Lordships' bar, appeared to have conducted themselves respectably, and to the satisfaction of the boroughs over which they were placed ?—( Hear, hear.) His opinion, therefore, was, that these aldermen ought to have been conti nued, and he should therefore wish that their Lordships should enforce that part of their amendments. This was his opinion when the subject was formerly under their Lordships' conside ration, and it still continued to be his opinion. Continuing, therefore, to hold his opinion, he felt bound to abide by it, whatever might be the result ; but he did not wish to conceal that several other Noble Lords, who had formerly entertained the same opinion as strongly as he did, had looked into other circumstances connected wish the question, and finding that this clause was opposed not only by the majority of the other House, but by Sir Robert Peel, a gentleman in whom, with great justice, they felt much confidence, both as to his judg ment and experience, did not now feel that they would be jus- tifted unikr the circumstances in insisting upon their amend ment.—( Hear, hear.) Flow these Noble Lords would act he (Lord Lyndhurst) did not know, but he had no doubt that it would be prudently. He must judge for himself, and, in doing so, he felt bound to insist upon their Lordships' amend ment, because he thought it founded upon justice. He consi dered this as by far the most important amendment made by their Lordships, and, if carried, he thought that there was no danger to be apprehended from the working of this Bill. If, however, the Bill was carried as it at present stood, notwith standing the amendments made by their Lordships, he could not conceal that he apprehended danger from it. There was one other point, and that one was very material, to which he wished to allude. He never could agree that the prerogative of his Majesty to choose his own magistrates should be taken from the Crown, or delegated by Act of Parliament to any other parties. He had heard no reasoning, he had heard no arguments, which justified this enactment. It was not enough to say that his Majesty's advisers could not have local know ledge, and, therefore, were not capable of making a proper choice. There were other parties to whom application on this point could be made. In the counties they might refer to the Lord Lieutenant, and in boroughs to the mayor, but he could not consent that the prerogative of the King should be abo lished, and that, by Act of Parliament, his Majesty should not have the power to appoint a single magistrate who had not been first nominated by these town-councils.—( Hear. ) This was a point to which he could never be induced to agree. He owed it not only to his own sense of duty, but he owed it to his Sovereign, that he should stand up for his prerogative. It was material that that prerogative should be supported, es pecially at the present time.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the division of towns into wards, that was a point upon which he would not say anything, as it would become the subject of discussion hereafter. There was one other point, and one only, to which he would beg to direct their Lordships atten tion, namely, that which related to the town-clerks. It was their intention to modify the proposition formerly agreed to by their Lordships, and he hoped that the other House would meet their Lordships, and endeavour to fix some plan for the settlement of this part of the question. The town-clerks were competent, able, and intelligent. Why, then, should they deprived of their offices? Why should they be removed from those duties for which they were so well qualified ? Why not allow them to afford those facilities for the administration of public business to the new Corporations which they had af forded to the old ? He was convinced that their Lordships would not sanction that any injustice should be done to those person„. The town-clerks considered that they had their offices substantially for life, and all that he proposed that they should ask the House of Commons to do was, that they should not violate property. These were the greatest points upon which they had differed with the other House; and, with the exception of that which was the property and prerogative of the Crown, lie might say that none of them was great. These were all the observations he had to make upon the sub ject under their Lordship's consideration. He would now beg leave to say a few words in regard to himself. Their Lord ships were aware how he had been assailed—( Hear, hear) — and personally attacked, both within the walls of Parliament and without, as to the course whiCh lie had thonght it his duty to take in regard to the Bill under their Lordship's considera tion. He begged to be allowed to say that he should not have been ashamed to have been a volunteer in the part which he took. But the truth was that he was not a volunteer.—( Hear, hear.) He had acted in connection and in unison with other Noble Lords, who were better able to have taken care of the Bill than he was. But in consequence of the nature of the inquiry he had been requested to take the management of the Bill. He yielded to that request, and, having yielded, he had discharged his duty to the best of his abilities.—( Cheers. ) He had been charged with having private views and indirect objects of ambition in the opposition \Ouch he gave -to the Bill as brought from the other House. All that he could say was this, that having twice passed that chair, his utmost ambi tion was satisfied. Whatever ambitious views he might have felt in his earlier life, they had been completely gratified. His ambition had been satisfied, and lie had no further wishes.—( Loud cheers.) Lord BROUGHAM then rose, but his first one or two sentences were not distinctly heard. He was understood to say that he did riot wish to interfere with this effect of the temperate, excellent, and • talented speech of his Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down ; but in consequence of the part which he had taken in the discussions upon the Bill, he considered it his duty shortly to state the views which he took of the subject; nor would he feel that he would be doing his duty to the public if he abstained from stating either his satisfaction with the measure as amended by his Noble and Learned Friend; or if he could not state satisfaction, that he should at all events state in what light he viewed the altera tions made by the other House upon the Bill, and their refu sal to adopt a portion of their Lordship's alterations. With regard to the rights of freemen, he need not go back to re mind their Lordships of the great importance which he at tached to that part of the original Bill. He had oposed the adoption of the alteration when proposed by his Noble Friend, and had explained why he considered it a great and marring deterioration of the measure.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend still kept to his opinion that the Bill had been improved by the alteration made in it. He (Lord Brougham) on the contrary, thought the Bill very much bet ter before the alteration, and the success of his Noble and Learned Friend's alteration had therefore given him no man ner of satisfaction. There was the less reason for going minutely into his opinions upon this subject, because, ac cording to the forms of their Lordships' House, he had had an opportunity of recording the reasons upon the journals of the House why he thought that the alterations made upon the Bill, as brought to them originally, were for the worse; but he could not help saying that he lamented that some of them had been adopted by the House of Commons. The next point was as to the qualification ; and here he would say, that he thought the House of Commons had done well, and also that their Lordships would do well to accede to the amendments made upon their Lordships' amendments. He had objected to the principle of the qualification moved by his Noble Friend, that only one-sixth of the highest rate payers should be admitted into the council; but, as soon as another Noble Friend, whom he did not then see in his place (Lord Devon) had moved as an alteration, that all members of the Council should have either the qualification proposed by his Noble and Learned Friend, or a qualification of 1,0001. in large, and 5001. in small boroughs, he was aware that there was an end to the operation of the bad, unprece dented, and pernicious principle which his Noble and Learned Friend wished to adopt. It was like having a chink and two large folding doors in one wall. The chink was diffi cult to pass through, but the folding-doors were easy enough. The chink was, however, of little consequence, either one way or the other, when the folding-doors were opened. He lamented greatly the other qualification which had been adopted by the House of Commons. He thought that that qualification made the doors much narrower than they were when the Bill left their Lordships' House. He did not know that it was the intention, but the effect of the adoption of that principle of qualification was to raise the qualification necessary for the member of the council; and it was more difficult now to enter the council-room than even if the qualification adopted by their Lordships had been retained. It, however, signified less, as there was the alternative of the other qualification. But there was another alteration to which he had still stronger objections. He considered it a most unfortunate alteration which required from the members a continuous qualification. It would lead to endless litigation; and there was nothing in the Bill which could afford a remedy for the evil. Lord L YND H UR ST—You advocated it. Lord BROUGHAM said lie had enforced it against the aldermen, but not against the councilmen : but now it was pro posed to enforce it against the councilmen. He regretted ex ceedingly that this clause had been introduced; and he consi dered that it would have been much better if the Bill had been left as his Noble and Learned Friend had left it. He now came to the point with respect to licensing. His Noble Friend had stated that he felt grateful that the House of Commons had not touched that point. It was not for him to regret that the House of Commons had agreed to any amendment made by their Lordships, but it was not quite correct in his Lord ship to say that the omission of that clause had been feebly sup ported in their Lordships' House. Lord LYNDHURST—Comparatively. Lord BROUGHAM said it had perhaps not been sup ported so strongly as some other points, but still it was opposed. —( Hear, hear.) They had tried the placing of this power in the hands of the magistrates and corporations, but without success. It was always liable to the production of endless dis pute, and endless abuse.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend and he had entirely the same opinion upon the subject. We took the plain course of saying, let those who are interested in the peace of the town be the judges whether it was fit that the license should be granted. If they thought the conduct of the person wanting the license, and of those going to the house, was such as was approved of, if in short, the feeling of the neighbourhood was that the license should be renewed, then it should be done. If not, the person wanting it would be considered as condemned by his peers.—( Hear, hear.) This was the argument in favour of the original clause, and he was rather sorry that the alteration which was no amendment had been acceded to. With regard to charities he heartily rejoiced that no amendment had been made in that respect upon their Lordship's amendment. It was not quite fair in his Noble Friend, however, to treat that part of the original Bill as he had done. His Noble and Learned Friend ought to remember that it was never intended that this Bill should remain as it then stood, as regarded charities : for he (Lord Brougham) had stated that he would have been obliged to ob ject to these clauses, and that it was his intention to bring in another Bill which should pass pari passu with this measare. With regard to the Church patronage, he was not one who thought that his Noble Friend's alterations were of any great consequence to the Dissenter, further than as they tended to throw a stigma upon that body, and because it was contrary to the principles of the Act which repealed the Test and Corporation Acts—an Act which repealed those religious differences which existed in no other part of the world but this. It had been said by a Right Rev. Prelate, in the course of the debate upon that subject, that he would demolish the argument of his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonial Department; but in the course of that demolition, the Right Rev. Prelate had raised doubts in his (Lord Brougham's) mind which he had not previously thought of ; for the Right Rev. Prelate had put the question in the odious light, that the Dissenters would probably put improper persons into the Church, for the purpose of injuring the Established Church. This was so odious a light to put the question in, that it had given him an increased repugnance to the clause. He was glad that the House of Commons had altered the clause, as he preferred the sale of the advowsons ; but he strongly ob jected to the addition which had been made, of giving to the diocesan the intermediate presentations.—( Hear. ) The House of Commons had thought otherwise; but he still main tained that it was unfortunate it had been adopted. The next question was that regarding the aldermen for life. He certainly preferred having the aldermen for six years to having them for life, but still he would rather that they adhered to the original clause. His Noble Friend had stated that he tho u g h t this the best of his amendments ; now he (Lord Brougham) thought it the very worst.—( Hear, hear.) He wished now !,° lay before their Lordships his opinion of the state of the nu' as it was amended ; and he would, in the first place, beg to remind their Lordships that it was not a good thing that anY man should make alterations upon a Bill excepting the frame!: of it, because it was difficult to graft new clauses upon th stock so that they would work. Now in the original Bill there were no aldermen at all. He could understand if the Com mons had left out the clause entirely, but taking a mi d course between the original plan and their Lordships' awe ° ment, he thought pregnant with danger, and he was convi nced it would work ill. He thought, then, that the best thing their Lordships could do was to strike the clause out altogei ther, and thus make the amendment better than the House Commons themselves had made it. If their Lordships to give up the principle of their amendment, let them not both it by halves, but altogether. That he thought would be bo i l the best and the most conciliatory course which they could adopt. Something had been said on the subject of toi clerks. He had argued this matter before, and would merely pleast i . re, repeat, that to convert the of oce during into a holding for life, was quite monstrous. It was veal people so oddly to give them a tool to work with, over wh,i e „ they were to have no power. If it should get blunted, WI were not allowed to sharpen it ; if it should get rusty, they we r h e not allowed to throw it aside. Parties always went on nin, , better together when there was confidence on the one bane wish? and dependence on the other. He should not be taking N awa i l anything from the town-clerks by begging his b and Learned Friend not to persist in his amendment, beean those persons had no salaries, and could not therefore be t. to have property in the office they held. As to the aPP° in a ment of the magistrates, he thought his Noble and Lea rn . e Friend set too great a stress upon the power proposed to b.e. given to the town council. There was no such thing as thru! s.. l ing or forcing upoa the Sovereign any person to be a ni s b ri e trate. Although three persons were to be proposed by the town council, out of whom only could the Crown make choice, yet the Crown was not bound to choose either of thoesl, three. If the Crown rejected them, then three more mu st f„ proposed, till at last, by rejecting them toties quoties, th Crown might obtain indirectly what it now enjoyed directly He thought, however, it was showing not a very becoming, distrust of a body of men who, in other respects were intru st e d with great and important duties, to refuse to them the exerci se of a power which every Lord-Lieutenant possessed—that of recommending a person to the Crown as fit to be appoi nted a magistrate. He and his Noble Friend had enjoyed the i. a; your for many years of the most entire confidence ef t ' Crown, so that both he and his Noble Friend would b e exceedingly averse indeed to lend any support to any niece sure that should trench upon the just prerogatives of the Crown.—( Hear.) But everything relied upon the sv°l l " just;" and he was sure that his Majesty knew too we is what was the duty of the chief magistrate, and what were ot , prerogatives, to suppose that by allowing persons to rec o mend to him individuals fit to be appointed magistrates , in the least trenching upon his just prerogative. Their Lo r t e , ships were now arrived at the close of a long debate---s de' bate remarked in some of its stages with angry and fierce e°, t n, tendon, while in all its stre'es it had been a debate of a ng; interesting nature. His Noble Friend at the head of his i"'", jesty's Government had made a most convincing speech b ° o the various amendments introduced by the Commons, and a, humbly hoped their Lordships would give to those amen ments a most candid, and at the the same favourable considers: Lion. His Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) h il ly alluded to one peculiarity in his own situation. He had P lat e , stated that he had come forward not as a volunteer on this casion ; but if he had, it would only, with his opinions , . 0 1 principles, and his honest party connection, have done 1 ° honour. It would have done him honour to have come v otio, tarily forward and taken the lead upon this great occasi ° o which his great talents, his great experience, and his g r weight with their Lordships entitled him to do.—(Che e r s ',' But he had stated that he was not a volunteer, but had c om a forward in consequence of having been solicited so to do' t, solicitation which, if it did credit to him who wanted it 0° : did credit to the judgment of those who made it ; for a beteg, choice could not have been made. The success which had a tended his Noble and Learned Friend's exertions,the great rar e rities by which his amendments were adopted, amply attested soundness of the judgment which made that choice, while it re bt fleeted credit on the talent, as well as demonstrated the v‘jg ie of his Noble and Learned Friend. He differed with his 1"v, and Learned Friend, wide as the poles asunder, upon this mat t f e d and upon many other matters, unfortunately, which distran t a, public attention, and which were occupying men's In lbe both in and out of Parliament, and creating oftentime s ' a , unfortunate splitting of parties, and breaking up of frie l !,, ships ; but no difference of opinion, no opposition of . PI, ciple, would ever make him conceal, suppress, or, in anY st e gree, to please any party or quarter whatsoever, Init i i; o o the expression of the feeling which he had of the admira":„ of talents, when he saw them exerted according to the r ) ciples of him who was endowed with them.—(Great cheerily There was one thing made matter of accusation agains t / e Noble and Learned. Friend, which, least of all, would h a d induced him (Lord Brougham) to suppress the expressi° l !„ t i his highest admiration of the ability which his Noble ` - i ,t Learned Friend had displayed throughout these impor t lif proceedings—he meant the attack which had been uni ° t o made against him, as if he entertained certain ar nbiti° i „, views—views which did not inspire, and which, God It ne it need little to inspire a man who had, by merit, and ree li j j alone, risen to the height his N o bl e a n d L ea rned Fri fat now enjoyed.—( Great cheering.) This attack, so I , from sealing hi s (L or d B roug h am ' s ) li ps upon an ocen a i .,, l° t like the present, would h ave b een th e grea t es t gtirou',o he could have felt to declare his opinion of the rue, talent and ability of his Noble and Leurned Friend. too, had been attacked ; but to him to be attacked when ,„ s e charging his duty, and to be attacked oft en ti me s by whom he was helping by so discharging his duty, was s ci e tural and so familiar, that it was like the air he breath e re sometimes more wholesome than at others, sometimes oppressive, oftentimes tainted with miasma, oftentimes bear i st i• with it infection, and the many other ill s to w hi c h the e ° , 1 , 0 14 tution of the atmosphere is subject, and which he who W'„ to breathe that atmosphere must lay his accou n t o cc asionaiv i d inhale.—( Cheers.) His Noble and L earne d F r i en d had 'bi that lie had reached the pinnacle of his professional; a%) tion, and what had he more to desire ? He (Lord Brougta, said the same in answer to a similar attack made against ", e al —(Cheers.) He did not mean the ridiculous and fa rc „,' explanation which had been attempted to be g iven to his '' ea t tives for so strenuously supporting his Majesty's Govern ,it —a thing so unintelligible in other respects—namely, No ble was an arrangement which had been made between his ''''„ or t Friend (Lord Melbourne) and himself, that he should stlE n r o iti the Government, and that a Noble Kinsman of his s'"flis be Governor of Bengal.—( Cheers and laughter.) be d Noble Friend ( Lord Melbourne) had b een more aston,i g f da at this explanation than any other person, ex ce pt his ;4°sag Kinsman, who knew well that he (Lord Brougham) e r very anxious that he should not go to India, and was get ceedingly anxious that another person should. So n i . oe t for that. But the charge which had been made ag gl as him was, that he was tired of the Great Seal, an d ; v hy anxious to become Prime Minister, that being co nsidere u ld him the only thing worth fighting for. To which he ' l° 'a make answer—if it be the only thing worth fighting w", a ci politics, then his battles were over, his fight was fought: n ab he now turned his political sword and spear into the P°., e y, and the pruning hook. He had no mind to fight in anY "or either in or out of Parliament, for that office—that une l o al ble office which was so ably, and so admirably, but he be ll ii e '. not so very cheerfully, filled by his Noble Friend (Lord e a bourne). Both he and his Noble Friend had need to ° t he that in the political career which now was, as well as i; es' career which both of them had gone through, they lit,' of dured pain and suffering of every kind, and every lu"„; a g, annoyance ; that they were annoyed with pai n a nd suffe-pros which no more ceased when they quitted th e re stless v i rlia , of public station, and retired into private life, than the bad tion of the vessel ceased to harass the brain after You o es quitted it, and landed on the shore; that these annoloat sprung up daily and hourly abo u t th e p a th no t only °, bio who trod the slippery eminence of publi c s t a ti o n, but or t he who quitted office and retired into private life. n ut t hee man who had holden office learned one thing, for he pp discovered what before he never knew, that there vie r % PO tures who would f or gi ve a n i n j ur y f ar more e asily Wi dne s more amply, than other natures would f o rgive a kin to reo conferred. From both the o a e a nd th e o th er o f those nt d i dip he was now happily in his own mind free. He 13 , a 01 charged his duty to his country, he had discharged his the the to his own conscience, and h e c l a i me d with confiden ce be approbation of others.—( Cheers.) But whether or 0 00 0 should have that which m en p r i ze d a b ove a ll o ther posse s , ' ,alO (except what he was going to mention), h e k n ew not, an t bst comparatively careless ; but that which he did know wa s ' a nd he had the approbation of his own he ar t.—(The Nor a ide ° Learned Lord sat down amid s t l ou d c h eer i ng f r om bot h of the House.) ot The Duke of WELLINGTON was mos t anxious n eo n• disturb the temper with which this discussion had beet'nf this ducted, but it was impossible to close the discussion -. re' Bill without adverting to some of the topics to whie h b l y 1114 ferred. He entir e ly agree d i n th e c h aracter given toon`,r Noble and Learn e d F r i en d (L or d L yn dh urst ) o f the It Solent cularly made by their Lordship s t o thi s Bill ; a nd mos t Soleil cularly he agre e d t o th e o b servat i ons ma d e to the ant e inia, relating to the appointment of Aldermen for life. " ° f ab taken great pains to make himself master of the conte nts bieet' the documents laid b e f ore th e i r L or d s hi ps u p o n this aut.:, be and, he must say, that having perused all those docurnenuch to came to the conclusion, that i ns t ea d o f th ere being m be alleged against the ancient Corporations of this lut a nist he was astonished to find how little could be stated ,Ibing them ; and the imp ress i on u p on hi s m i n d wa s, that i _li c u b re" could be alleged against th em , if th ose a ll eg ations tv ° o dor lated to their Parliamentary influence previous to the ratio a, tion of the Reform Bill b a d b een struc k ou t o f consi de b i c h it When he first saw thi s , an d exam i ne d t h e ex tent to W w hich was carried, he thought it was a pressure of ini o naticcarly in ought not to b e adopted. But he certainly felt, very :ble f° l ' the discussion of thi s measure , t h at i t wou ld be pol t t ee their Lordships to entertain the Bill, and to consi der oro ore the principle of putting an end t o self-election in ctoipre tions. At the same time he felt it would be necessary serve existing interests, and that the rights of propertY shouldp -, to orte d be taken care of. It was upon that principle that he 5 n r t ed by both the qualification clause which had been since ad°r eon' the House of Commons, and also the propos;tion ina, de wa a de; tinue the aldermen for life. He felt not only that ' c t ies trofe d ". sirable that the ancient corporations should not be , ode? without care being taken for those who held situations‘hat it those corporati ons f or t h e i r li ves , b ut h e likewise felt teorpo would be exceedingly d es i ra bl e t o esta bli s h in the new nee rations an interest for life, w hi c h s h ou ld be in some of lu of