The Sun. — London, England, 1848-05-16 00:00:00

Mr. Bancroft's langua,,ffe to me was—" We are ready to do anything you will do. If you can do but little, we would do but little. If you' will do much, we will do much too. If you will do all, we will do all."—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I requested Mr. Bancroft to put his views into shape in a formal communication, and the conse- Fuence was a l e tt er w hi c h h e a dd resse d to my N o bl e riend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which I will take the liberty of reading to the House:— " American Legation, Nov. 3, 1847. " The undersigned, Envoy Extraordinary arid Minis ter Plenipotentiary of the United States of America, has the honour to inquire of Viscount Palmerston, her Britannic Majesty Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if her Majesty's Government is inclined to remove existing restrictions on international com merce. Universal reciprocity, in the widest sense, is held by the American Government as the only thoroughly appropriate basis for intercourse between two great nations. The prohibition of the indirect trade has but restrained enterprise; it has done good to neither country. To abrogate it would at once set free dormant :commercial wealth, without injuring any one. Should her Majesty's Government entertain similar views, the undersigned is prepared, on the part of the American Governme n t, to propose that British ships may trade from any port in the world to any port in the United States,, and b e rece i ve d , protecte d, an d in respect to charges and dutie s t reate d lik e A m erican ships; if, re- P ; '' l.(p eally, American ships may in like manner trade rora any port of t h e wor ld t o an y p or t under the domi 13ico of her Britannic Majesty. The removal of com mercial restrictions, while it would be of mutual advantage to the material interests of both countries, could not but give openings to still further relations of amity between them, and b y its influence on the inter course of Rati ons , create new guarantees for the peace of the world. " GEORGE BANCROFT." Sir I will not read the reply of my Noble Friend to 111% Bancroft; suffice it to say, that my Noble Friend stated, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that they did not feel themselves at liberty to enter into nego tiations with the United States of America upon prin ciples obviously subversive of the navigation-laws as they now stand, and although they conceded that such a course would not be justifiable on the part of the Bri tish Government without the p re vious sanction of Par liament, yet h er Majesty's Government were prepared to make to Parliament such recommendations as they trusted would meet the views expressed by Mr. Bancroft on the part of the Government of the United States. • Then, Sir, concurrently with that warning from Prussia, which, I believe, the whole of Prussiagave not only in the name of Germany, but in the name of all other c ountries s o restricted, with that warning we had this invitation from America. I think this did constitute an op p a ort unity whi c h I should indeed lament to see thrown • sure y Of and • although I am quite aware of the pres this public bssiness on the House in the course of Majesty's inn d cumstances Yet I should indeed have lamented if her , ze fo en rezotg offer or h iv a i d ng been obliged, by any cir thethis House, at the least, liieving as g ourselves of this opportunitY,..he teat the navigation Ido , only that - it is of great consequence a th n a d_ propeontinliws should be placed on a sound f- s - ...Z, but also that it is of consequence opptornt7intii which, I lo t ; should be lost in availing ourselves of this , and that we should not follow that course am sorry to say, has attended all precedihg alterationsWlattnnlatoef, andou r n n a o v t igation - l a w s , namely, come some• been entailedse,in o a n .the Ilou - until great practical evils have the country. Sir, I have now stated to general manner, what the law is, and I have stated to them my reason for believing that it -w ould be in cons i stent with the interests of this country to maintain the law in its present state. I will now Proceed to *tats to the House what are the alteraticins )- whi ch9 on the p art o f h er M a j esty ' s Government, p 4 ,9 1 _Prepa re d to make. And, Si r, I w ill begin I those p ar t s of b u r - n a v i ga ti o n-laws which do not proose to alter. Sir, it is not my i T• er ition to recommend- -to --the House to mike s - "Y material alteration with regard to the coasting trade to this country. It is not that lam unable to say 1°1 " House that I believe that if we threw open the coasting trade foreigners could by no possibility, to tiny P e at extent, avail themselves of it. On the contrary, I bo und are E „ ,- to admit, that if there is any part of our navi -6440n-laws t h at i s more protecte d b y nature f rom f ore i gn ninterference than another, it is the coasting trade of this count ry- But, Sir, on the other hand, if that is the case, ' think it must be admitted also that throwing open the coasting trade would produce no very great amount of g°°d• But if foreigners are by nature practically ex cluded from our coasting trade, I cannot believe that admitting them by law would produce any very great amount of good. Under these circumstances, Sir, my desire is not to recommend to the House any alteration Which I think I cannot lay a foundation for in a case of urgent and absolute necessity, and in professing that opinion I shall, I think,. do more in consonance with prudence . and circumspection in dealing with in which th©feelings it subject of this magnitude, Well as the interests of this country are deeply involved—l say, Sir , I shall do more in consonance with that prudence and circumspection, seeing that there would be no benefit by . throwing open the coasting-trade —seeing also that there is no chance that foreigners may imitate us in this respect, believing thatit would cause very considerable alarm among the merchants and ship owners, and other classes in this country—alarm which I should not myself share—l confess that on the whole it is a more prudent and convenient course not to ask the House to interfere with that case. I will also add, that we should create a difficulty with regard to our re venue, the revenue police of our coast, by the admission of foreigners to the unrestricted privilege of our coasting trade. On this ground her Majesty's Government have come to the determination of not recommending to this House to interfere with the navigation laws as they now stand with regard to the coasting trade. Sir, for reasons somewhat similar, but I think stronger in degree, I also do not intend to propose to the House to make any alteration in the law which restricts the fisheries to English vessels. I do not propose to alter the navigation laws with regard to the fisheries of this country. The whale fisheries will be affected indirectly by the general alteration which we propose to make, but with our own fisheries we do not propose any alteration. But, Sir, having made these two reservations, I confess that I shall propose to this House to deal in a very general manner with the remainder of the system of our navigation-laws. The truth is, it all hangs together. It is very difficult to separate one from another. Upon the best consideration I have been enabled to give to the subject, I beliere there would be little practical advantage in doing so. And moreover, I am bound to say, having looked into "eh of the several remaining parts—l mean those parts which,, re s t r i ct the importation of goods from the ports of • 'jai Africa, an d America, and from Europe, into this country other than in British ships—l will say that part el our navigation -laws which is designed to protect out Carrying trade, I s a y I cann ot believe that this country se any real i n t erest i n reta i n i ng th ose — a t least as far as ise A ~,,,b'sr u s foreign co un t r i es that may be disposed to reci procate with us in respect to these matters. I therefor& propdse, by Act of Parliament, altogether to strike from the statute-book the existing system.—(Cheers.) But ,-, s hall advis e t h e House not to depr i ve t h e Q ueen i n si ll oumoil of that power which she already possesses untie' isi)lse:acy statutes, of imposing countervailing duties, ii tret cur so think fit, upon any f o r e i gn na ti on t h a t ma y thisa r ships with i n j us ti ce . I d o not propose that ipower sho u ld b e o b l i gatory on the Crown. Ido not , s T ePoerese that, where it m a y not b e cons id ere d f or t h e blow 'ta °f this country—tor the mere s a ke of re t urn i ng f or , Crow, $h I°R' the mere sake of r e t a li a ti on , that the cottntry ie °4l 4 be obliged to impose restrictions on any tient' ; - th ey should fit to impose similar restric- be our Wouldnavigation. But, Sir, Ido not think it of all powerpedien so completely to strip this country sort of a, under all possible circumstances, under any feral ggravation or injustice, of retaliating on a power, a i the Crown of that power 7:_ hi l l it already possesses under so many Acts of Par ,:toisent, I do not know whether I have clearly ex- , eac eed-to the House the plan which I propose. ' • s l. r , R. PEEL —With regard to the fisheries? nr. LABOUCHERE—I mean no alteration with re- VTI;I_IVT. to the fi s h er i es whatever. The privileges which 1 re . v essels have on ou r coas t s now t h ey w ill st i l l th ".,, The rest more on te navigation laws than e treatiy not es and international rights, and the law of „ 44 . 0w tk rts- I d o not propose any alteration there. And as to th e v i ews of the Government with regard to the n avigation laws, properly so called. But there are baserlle etloctraents, which I adverted to at the beginning ,_,;my speech, which it is absolutely necessary I should I the attention of the House to in conjunction Run s re , these,' alterations. These are the acts which j.,‘ ...t , Own;ershiN • g ll 'ato the character of British vessels—l mean the building, and manning. Sir, I think in ex ...`: . n. r a Z a .'og the British shipowner in this manner to the unre world I icted corn • • ' ention—it may be with all parts of the to „. think it is but reasonable that we should afford the mot every facility in obtaining his ships at todenheapeat rate.—(Hear, hear.) I therefore propose the r tw h it t y with that restriction which at present limits built g sh , equally to British registered as to British shall be entitled propose that a ship built abroad to ow „ r . bi to be British registered. With regard alteration.PJ do not propose to make any material , . er . law which lah * at'o some anomalies in the present ould . to dotehe general p r i ne nsPose to redress, but with ; regard t intend t o „ au ! es of registering British ships, I registering the o i , oo l n acY change ; and with, regard to British ships eag aged gi 1 , Propose still to require that have crews entirely oo 14 the coasting trade should I - do not propose to cesteProsed of British seamen , and *V , crews of British ships en gaged . the lawt. re and .to the with d • 5.., still to require that t h o ,„ ,In the foreign trade, but Ouitish seamen. But, their crews composed of"Z"° 111 d have two - thirds of .... fleeted with the manning o f ` - `es con terial alteration which I prope r there is one ma onneanaoation with regard to question of apprentices. But ' Sir, I allude to h should say that there is t o eirt:rathat in the Indian alterf°" and cnr of British sea -1 proceed, I manning which I propose, SOILS the Lascars shall have the and therefore ''' % • men, for I think it really is absurd tabs a distinction in that case, unjust t o m ,i n. to place the Lascars on the same footi° we propose seamen, believing they are entitled gtoas British -their excellent conduct, and by the _fidelity they - have shown to the British nation. I propose which al n tt s ,g ee - t - h -e , Y s to abrogate the necessity which is now im British ships of taking apprentices. I believed that obligation is one of the most burdensome nature, ar i d a / e sic : believe it is of no use whatever in increasing the quantity f British sailors, or in manning our navy. I belies , . • et: • that it has totally failed in that respect, and is a mOs e t ..., a t tin se iost restricti on p l ated on the British shipowner. At s . sent its e ff ect is such that one-sixth of the crews of 7„.„.... nosh ships it is calculated consists of boys. But the ~, „, consequence which t hi s violent disturbance of the labour , Ai," r attrkOt of t hi s dare,tx, particular b ranc h naturally produces is to es xj,._ these e .the able-bodi e d seaman out of the ships into which to the Deere are intractsed. Ns i s o bli ge d to ta k e himself Au k e z i ou ali n• " 113 I> ti PVT or s ay other i THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA°Y navy where he can find employment, because we have overstocked the labour market of our commercial maiine by calling these boys into the service, and driving out the able-bodied seaman. My own belief is, that instead of answering the object it was intended to promote, namely, of increasing the nnmber of able-bodied seamen in the British navy, and thus making a nursery for our military marine, it has produced exactly the reverse, without in the slightest degree increasing the number or improving the character of the seamen engaged in our commercial marine. The law now obliges a certain number of apprentices to be taken in proportion to the tonnage of every ship, and I propose to abrogate that, by leaving it perfectly free for every shipowner to em ploy boys and men as he thinks fit. I cannot help on this point reading the evidence giving before the Navi gation-law Committee by Sir Edward Stirling last year : --‘ 1 It throws the older persons out of employment at times when trade is not very brisk, and leaves them no alternative but to seek employment in foreign service. The law requires that about a sixth part of the whole number of seafaring persons shall at all times be appren tices; but, if too many seamen are made by this process, the hardship falls upon the old sailor, who is thrown out of employment, or is prevented from getting full em ployment. It appears to be an arbitrary interference with the labour market; is at all times a hardship upon the shipowner, and at certain times a hardship upon the seaman." Mr. Duncan Dunbar says, "We being compelled to take apprentices entails a very consider able expense, and very considerable inconvenience, It not obliged to send boys, I should send a ship with twenty able-bodied men. I now send her with fourteen able-bodied men and six ordinary men, and six appren tices. The ships could b. better manned if we were not compelled to send boys, and there would in that case be more security for the lives of the people on board." Sir, I think I have now stated the outline of the measure which I propose to the House on the part of her Ma jesty's Government. Mr. HERRIES here. across the table, in a low tone of voice, requested some further explanation. Mr. LABOUCHERE—I will recapitulate the propo sition. I propose to preserve, unaltered, the coasting trade and the fisheries of the mother country, and of the colonial possessions of her Majesty. With regard to the coasting trade of the colonies, there is a modification which I omitted to state, which I will allude to presently. With that exception, I propose absolutely to throw open the whole navigation of this country of every sort and description. But I propose to retain to the Queen in Council the power of appointing such restrictions upon the navigation of foreign countries as she may think proper, if those countries de not us meet on the same terms. We do not render it obligatory on the the Queen in Council to exercise that power, but we enable her to do so, as may seem best for the interests of the country. With regard to the coasting trade of the colonies, in the Bill I shall bring in, to preserve it in the same manner as I do the coasting trade of the mother country ; but I also propose to allow each co lony, if it shall think fit, to pass an Act throwing its coasting trade open to foreign countries, and that Act, With the - consent of the Queen given in the regular way, will enable the colony to deal with its coasting trade as it shall think best. It was necessary to do this in order to place Canada in a right position. Our object is to give the colonies, as far as possible, the most unlimited power of making their own navigation-laws. If the colonies wish to have their coasting trade thrown open, I should be very sorry to prevent them so doing ; and therefore we propose to enable the legislatures to adopt any measures they please with the consent of the Crown— Mr. GOULBURN—Antigua, for instance. Mr. LABOUCHERE That is the inter-colonial trade. We propose, that by a Bill, the colonies may make their own navigation• laws, but that the Queen shall have the power of restriction, as I previously stated. I will now shortly recapitulate my-, statement with regard to the manning, ownership, and - build of vessels. I propose that to entitle a veisel to the cha racter of a British ship it shall not be necessary that ;he shall be British built, but it shall be necessary that she should be a British-owned ship. I also propose a restriction as to men in the same proportion as now ex ists. The whole crew of a coasting vessel must be British, and a foreign trading vessel must have three fourths— Lord GEORGE BENTINCK—You said two-thirds before. Mr. LABOUCHERE—I made a mistake, I do not propose to alter that regulation. But I propose alto gether to do away with the necessity of having a certain proportion of apprentices. This, Sir, is the outline of he alterations which I have ventured to submit to the consideration of Parliament. I do not disguise from myself that they are of very grave and serious nature—that they go to the founda tion of what we have hitherto considered as the navigation-laws of this country. I can assure the House that it is only after the fullest and most mature consideration, after having come to the complete con viction in my own mind that the course which I propose is really the best for the great interests involved, that I have ventured to propose it to the House. Sir, I cannot but believe that this very competition will really increase the marine of the country. Look at the way in which it has prospered in proportion as restriction has been removed and freedom esta blished. I recollect what was said when Mr. Huh kisson introduced his celebrated measure in the year 1826, by which he so greatly threw open the trade of this country to foreign competition. I remember the prognostics which were uttered of the ruin it would bring on the British maritime interest. I beg to re mind the House of what really has been the result of that legislation. In the year 1824 the tonnage of the United Kingdom—the registered tonnage—amounted to 2,348,000 tons, and the colonial to 211,000 tons, making a total of 2,559,000 tons. In the year 1847 the tonnage of the United Kingdom was 3,307,000 tons, and the colonial was 644,000, making a total of 3,952,000 tons, and being an increase of 1,393,000 tons. Now, Sir, I think these figures prove there may be an ebb and a flow of prosperity, but taking the two periods of 1824 and 1847, and looking at the immense increase of tonnage at the end of that period, I think it clearly proves that the relaxation then made by Mr. Huskisson has not been pro luctive of that injury which so many persons believed would flow to the navigation and commerce of this country. And, Sir, if I turn from the general commerce if the country to that part of it which has specially been open to the competition of other countries, and compare it with that part of our commerce which has been spe cially protected, I find nothing in the comparison of the effects of the two systems to discourage me from pro ceeding onwards in the course of commercial liberality. Sir, I hold in my hand a return the contents of which were communicated to the Committee of the navigation laws last year. I mean the statement of the tonnage of British ships which entered the ports of the United Kingdom, and also of foreign ships each year from 1824 to 1846, distinguishing the tonnage employed in trade to foreign countries and British possessions, and that -.mployed in protected and unprotected trade. Now, I know that a great deal has been said about this return not being a fair return.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford (Mr. Ber ries) cheers that statement, and therefore he does not (.nisider this a fair return. Now, this much lam prepared to admit to the Right lion. Gentleman, that the terms used as the heading of this return are not strictly applicable. The word " unprotected" does not strictly describe the return. It should be less protected instead of unprotected. But this I must say in justification of the officer of the Board of Trade who drew up this return, that it was the distinction made before the Committee in the navigation-laws by one of the gentlemen who, I believe, fought most steadily the battle of protection there, Mr. G. F. Young. lie de scribed one class of vessels in that trade as protected, and the other as engaged in the unprotected' trade. therefore I do not think that any blame is to be at tached to the gentleman who drew up the return. But the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite will at least admit to me that there is a broad distinction between these two classes of trade. One of them is strictly and, closely protected, and the other is less protected, and iII which we are exposed to competition with those countries with which we are trading. Now, Sir, the result of this return is this, that the protected trade was, in 1824, of British vessels, 893,000 tons in round !nprnbers. In the year 1846 the tonnage was 1.735,000, being an increase of 184 per cent. Tiien in the less protected trade, as I will call it, b ei ng the more correct expression—the less pr o t ec t e trade amounted in the year 1824 to 904,000 tons, and n 1846 to 2,558,000 tons. I know the Right Hon. Gentleman will say that that includes the rapid voyages of stramers; but that will apply to both sides of the return equally. There is no difference in that respect. In reference to this return, I will call the attention of the House to the comparative effect upon British and foreign snips en gaged in this less protected trade. This is a statement foreigntwa k t h e nthfreoo countries er t t h cr the fiseotßritishigep againstie foreign ttoaf cialnonBcude2rnaltoa increase r eehy e s ii i een g wah n rat ecfshipsrnh9otome4r ,entered year.ons ott2e:treT:etndohus tons. so tri ton nage t o len m 6nd: i n i a i g n e gd o o f el ßr f i r t o i m sh 1846 the tonnage amounted to 2,55588,0,00000; and df in o br l e s ig o n ships, in 1824, the . tonn age was 7 it was 1,883,000. The increase, therefore, of British shipping engaged in this less protected trade, has amounted to 1,654,000 tons, or 182 per cent. in round numbers; and the foreign increase 1,044,000 'tons, or 137 per cent. That shows, therefore, that the shipping in the less protected trade has increased more than that in those trades which are strictly monopolies, and showing, likewise, that in this comparatively, unpro tected state of the British shipping there has actually been a greater increase than in the foreign shipping. Sir, I bare stated my reasons for believing that British commerce and British shipowners will not be injured by the alteration of the law that I have proposed. Sir, I have no apprehension either that the British fail p. builder will be injured by this alteration. When I consider the great national advantages of this co - entry with regard to our manufacture of ships—when I con sideri.ts capital, its abundant supply of iron, of cordage, and of. paint—and that supply of timber, which I be lieve gives , a .greater choice to the British shipbuilder than in any other place in the world he can have at his command—Sir, I cannot believe that there is 5.Y real disadvantage to the shipbuilder, or that he will suffer by being brought into competition wii a liu thei t r h o e f believe, • shipbuilders of foreign countries. I omparingSitrt: that it is a .great.f.fmistatkeartine of fotmhe tails on this s e u cost of ships built in di eren p wood, to look merely at the amount of money expended proved thitttl, quality teadndindaunraybil3t n e : a t k ru ji c e t c ion. We should also consider the belief is -1 ani s hips there built, and their durability. My time tLi : to build ships bnt w yf illing to weary the House with de l:: i ; py u t my tions of ship buildifor ship, considering the belief is that it can be of British ships, we are able at this t stance of cheap g the world. Sir, if the competi. d equal depended a to those rl ownh the! h are cir c c u o m n keg p. nstruotion the B ritish builder would "woe be e 4 "'"" swaY from the market, not 4 by foreigners, tut by that competition to which he is now exposed, without any protection whatever—l mean the competition of our own colonists. The cheapest ships in the world are those which are built in our own British North American colonies. For some purposes they are extremely useful, and, for the same purposes, it is a great advantage to the shipowner to have access to those ships. It might be supposed that this would tell against the ship-building of England ; but it is not so ; for while the colonial ship-building has greatly increased, the trade in ship-building on the English coast has enormously increased also. My belief is, that, in addition to choice of timber and materials, we have also the best and cheapest labour in the world. If we repeal the restrictions of the naviga tion-laws, all foreign materials necessary for the con struction of ships will be brought to England far cheaper than they now are, and in that also the shipowner will derive a considerable advantage. Upon the whole, lam satisfied, that when the House shall come to examine that part of the subject, it will see that it is a matter of justice to the British shipowner to remove those protec tions, to allow him access to foreign-built ships if he so thinks fit, and that by doing so it will run no risk whatever of destroying that valuable and important branch of trade in the hands of our own countrymen. On the contrary, my belief is, that the sort of stimulus thus given to British ship-building will be of the most salutary kind. I can discover no reason why we should! lag in this particular behind any foreign country in the. world. If in some particulars the United States of America appear to excel us in the construction of ships, I am sure it can only be owing to the monopoly which has hitherto existed ; if you remove that, you will give a salutary stimulus to the interests of British trade, and I do not see any reason we should not sustain ourselves under the competition of foreigners. It seems to me that those who maintain that ships cannot be built as cheaply in this country-as in any other part of the world, ought also to maintain that we cannot make any other article of manufacture as cheaply. I cannot conceive any argument of that kind which will not apply, in an infinitely stronger degree, to other great articles of manufacture. I now come to an objec tion which I know has the greatest weight in the minds of many men, and if I believed myself in its truth and validity I confess I should think that all the arguments I have adduced in favour of those changes ought to go for nothing; I mean, that it would be destructive to the military, marine, and naval greatness of this country. That opinion has the sanction of some great names, and among others, of Adam Smith, who says, that "as defence is better than commerce, so the navigation-laws, though in his view injurious to commerce, are wise and salutary." I will not now enter into the inquiry, whether in the days of Adam Smith that distinction existed; though I must express a different opinion with modesty and doubt, my own belief is, that that opinion is one of the few errors to be found in him. But whatever may have been the case in his time, I believe that argument will not apply now. The question is, will the removal of the restrictions of the navigation-laws increase or diminish your maritime commerce?—(Hear, hear.) Ido not agree with those who contend that you can separate maritime commerce from naval power. I do not believe that a great naval power can safely be maintained on any other basis than that of a large commercial marine_ ; _ and if I thought th e measure I mean to propose to th e House were calculated to fritter away and annihilate the commercial marine, of this country, I should be prepared to admit they would be almost destructive to the naval greatness of this country. But it is enough for me to show that the mea sure, so far from diminishing the commercial marina of the country, will in reality increase and enlarge its, e nd if that be the case we need never fear to have ship of war sufficient for the defence of this country.—(llear.) Mr. Huskisson stated the true doctrine on this sub ject when he said that the only true and durable ioundation of a large commercial marine was to be found in the means of affording them beneficial emproymeni; I have stated that I believe no danger is to be appre hended -from this measure to our commercial greatness; I wish I could say that I saw no danger to be appre• hended from any other source ; but in my opinion the true peril to our commercial greatness is that of raising up the jealousies of rivals against us. lam afraid that there are real dangers of this kind, and I must leave it to the House to apply any remedies their wisdom may devise for them. I hope their attention has been directed to a very remarkable correspondence which has been for some time laid on the table, consisting of letters from our consuls abroad in reply to a circular sent to them from the Foreign-office. I think no gentleman can have perused those documenls without feelings of deep regret at the evils prevailing in our commercial marine. Our mercantile navy suffers exceedingly in its competition with those of other countries—not from the want of any protection or restriction from the State, but, I regret to say, from evils inherent in itself, which no amount of protection can cure, but which, on the contrary, I believe the indirect effect of the removal of protection will go a great way to remove. What do we find described by almost every consul who writes from different quarters of the globe ? They state that, whilst the character of the British seaman for what is technically called handling ships remains as high as ever, still unfortunately, owing to the low character of our shipmasters, their want of skill, and I am sorry to say in many cases their defective morality, which produces a very relaxed state of discipline on board of their ships, our vessels are fast lossng their share in the commerce of the world.—(Loud ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Protectionists.) I make that assertion ad visedly; it is much better to look these evils in the face than to attempt to disguise them from ourselves. Mer chants, therefore, in too many instances, prefer to en• trust their cargoes to American, Bremen, or Swedish, rather than to British ships, on account of the injurious effect of the circumstances I have pointed out. It is my firm conviction that these evils have grown up very much in consequence of the system of protection, which leads the British shipowner not to exert himself to im prove the character of his ship; and I believe that the effect of removing protection will be to secure improve ment.—(Hear, hear.) There are other measures con nected with the merchant navy which I think ought to receive the attention of the House,, two -of which I propose to introduce in the course of the present ses sion one affecting the question of light dues, the other for the regulation of the merchant sea men's fund. There are also others which I hoped to be able to introduce in the present session, but which, though withdrawn for the time, I hope Parlia ment will deal with, and that in a manner advantageous to the commerce of the country. I refer to the pilotage question, and to any means which we may be enabled to employ for ensuring a better and more competent in struction of British shipmasters. A measure of this kind would be amongst the most useful which could be devised by Parliament for the improvement of our mer chant navy.—(Hear, hear.) It is perhaps not surprising that some apprehension should be felt by the class ; whom it more particularly affects, with respect to the change I propose; but I believe such apprehensions to be ground less. My conviction is, that in the continuance of pro tection they will find their ruin. —(Hear.) Protection and monopoly will avail them nothing in remedying the evils to which I have adverted; they will only narrow and confine the general commerce of this country. The navi gation of this country must depend on its commerce; and to suppose that anything which in the long run cripples and narrows the commerce and manufactures of this country can be favourable to its navigation, is, I believe, an idle vision. This, and every other class of the com munity, will find their true interest in the long run in being allowed to compete on equal terms with other countries of the world, instead of being encumbered with a system of protection which does them no good, but is deeply injurious to the general interests of the country. —(lean) I have now done—l have gone through, I am afraid, very imperfectly, this great subject—(Hear, hear)—and I beg humbly and respectfully to recommend the proposals I have made to the deliberate and impartial consideration of Parliament. I believe that, if they are adopted, their effect will be greatly beneficial to this country at large, and to no interest of this country more beneficial than that which I value as much as any man can d—ol mean the commercial prosperity and manufae ' turing greatness of the British empire. —(hear.) I be lieve this alteration will produce, instead of jealous rival ries and the irritation of foreign nations—instead of crippled trade and contracted manufactures,freedom, goods will, prosperity, and peace. I believe we shall be placing the prosperity of England upon the best and noblest foundation, if we can connect- it, as in my opinion we can and shall do by this measure, with the general in. terest, the extending trade, the continued peace, advance ment, and prosperity of the whole civilised world. — (Cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by proposing a resolution, "That it is expedient to remove the restrictions which prevent the carriage by sea be tween the United Kingdom and British possessions abroad of goods in foreign vessels, subject only to such control as her Majesty's Government may deem neces sary, and that it is expedient-to amend the laws relating to the registration of ships and seamen." • Mr. ELLIOT asked whether the measure would affect that provision of the navigation-laws requiring four men to be carried for every 100 tons? Mr. LABOUCHERE said his Hon. Friend had fallen into a very common error in believing that to be the law, but it was not so. He believed the law to be that, provided an English ship maintained the proportion of three-fourths English seamen and one fourth foreign, it might carry any proportion of men to the tonnage the owners pleased. It was only when they had more than one-fourth of the seamen on board fo reigners that the other provision was applicable. Prac tically, the restriction did not come into play, because ships never carried more than one-fourth of the crew foreigners. In answer to Mr. FORSTER, Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would ask leave of the House to take the preliminary steps, which would en able him to bring in measures relative to the light dues and merchant -seamen's fund ; but he had not mixed them up in his statement. In answer to Mr. HUME, Mr. LABOUCHERE said that Ceylon would be treated exactly as any other British colony. Mr. GLADSTONE felt that on a measure of so much importance as the present it was better they should ;postpone any discussion until they had the Right Honourable Gentleman's plan before them, and time was allowed for considering it. He rose, therefore, only to put one or two questions on parts of the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement as to which ho was in some doubt. He understood the Right Honourable Gentleman to say that for the Lame reasons which made it expedient to continue the existing restrictions on the coasting trade, he thought it expedient to continue the restrictions on the fisheries. He did not know whether gibe right Honourable Gentleman had in view asive Rights of fishing on certain b an k s and within b thi e n x e c e slain limits enjoyed by British vessels, or the imposed by our commercial laws on th e im portationrestraits: n of fish in foreign vessels. By the Customs Act o f 1845 it was enact e d t h at all fish of foreign taking shall not be imported union itk Tessek which shall but bleu cleared ~,~, ,b 101: g iou regularly with su c h fish op,hetai-d from some foreign port, thus preventing foreign vessels from coming di= reef from the fisheries' with fish on board to a British port. He did not distinctly gather whether it was in tended to continue that restriction, or whether foreign shiitphstewhoiuridcabreg permitt edcargoes from the under fisheries t he l to a Bish port. a w t o c o m r i edi r ectl w This was a question of great importance, not only with respect to the supply of the British markets with fish, but also to the trade in whale oil, which was carried on to so large an extent by American ves sels. It was material they should know whether those vessels would be allowed to come from the South Seas, fer instance, with their oil, or whether it must first be carried to an American port. He also wished to know whether the Right Honourable Gentleman meant to propose to Parliament any mea sures relative to the education of young persons for a seafaring life, and the examination of masters and mates to ascertain their fitness. He could have wished, also, to ha ve h ear d some statement as to the ef f ect o f t h e measure enacted a f ew years ago for the vo l un t a ry exa mination of master s and mates, so as a l so to know whether G overnment h ad determined to g i ve any further extension to the system. The subject of naval educatien appeared to him to be one of such g reat importance, that he would b e g l a d i f it should be found possible to afford aid from the public funds towards the establish. went of schools in the seaports. He wished to knew also whether the Right Honourable Gentleman was in ft condition to give them any further information with re gard to the views and intentions of foreign powers, other than those to whom he had alluded—Prussia and the United States, for instance: whether there were reasons to suppose that the views of two such maritime powers as Sweden and Denmark would be likely to coincide with the general provisions of the measure now announced. Mr. LABOUCHERE would endeavour to answer the Right Hon. G e ntl eman ' s questions. First, w ith respect to the fisherie s , h e apprehended if the House w ere to assent to the mea sure i t was his duty to propose, it would be In th e p ower of a foreign vessel engaged i n the deep sea fish er y t o b r i ng the produce of that fis her y di rect to this count r y. T he alteration propose d would go to that extent ; b u t w i th regard to the coas t and bank fisheries, it w as not proposed to abandon the ancient privileges of thi s country. Our own deep se e fisheries would have a bett er c h ance of competing w i t h foreigners, if allowed to send h ome their produce any vessel, whether native or foreign. With respect to the inten tions of foreign pow ers , ot h er t h an Prussia and the United States, Minister s ? bad not thought i t expe dient to make any overtures or to enter into any com • munications with foreign states, until they knew the views of the House of Commons. He felt the great importance of the other subjects to which the Right Honourable Gentleman adverted—naval education and the examination of shipmasters. A system of voluntary examination had been in operation for some time, which had been adopted to a considerable extent by ship owners, who had availed themselves of this channel. He was disposed to give it a further trial before attempt ing to substittite-any compulsory system, which might be open to objection. With respect to the subject of schools for the instruction of seafaring persons, he should be glad if it were to engage the attention of the House. He had felt, in the ministerial arrangements of the Executive Government, the want of some department whose special business it should be to consider, protect, and promote the interests of the mercantile marine. There was no professional maritime assistant at the Board of Taade, and be had always felt the inconve nience of deciding on such questions without such assist ance. He should therefore propose, in the course of the present session, to constitute a department of the Board of Trade, to be called the department of the mercantile marine, consisting of unpaid officers, which would be superintended by one of the Lords of the Admiralty, thus affording to the Government, without any increase with more advantage than they now - could. of 'expe nse , th'si'meaes- of 'considering suchquestions Mr. G. ROBINSON (who spoke amidst great confu sion from Members leaving the House) was understood to say that nothing could remove from his mind the im pression that the great interests of the country were most seriously menaced by the measures now proposed. The time at which they were brought forward was most inopportune; why not defer them until the evidence taken before the other House had been published? lie saw much in the labours of the Committee to confirm, the views he entertained, namely, that it would be pre judicial to the interests of the country to alter the navi gation-laws. He would not offer any factious opposition to the measure, but he thought he might predict that it would considerably add to the difficulties of the Go vernment. He saw no reason for pressing the measure in the present session. With respect to the representa tions of the colonies for a repeal of these laws, the only inference that could be drawn from them was, that those colonies having been ruined by the free-trade policy, now wished to indemnify themselves at the expense of the shipping interest. He could only say that they would be disappointed in those expectations. He denied that the consumers would derive any benefit from the re peal of the navigation-laws. The difference in the amount of freight in British vessels and foreign vessels was so small that it could not benefit the home consumer. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that all the great authorities were in favour of a repeal of these laws.. He denied that ; for even Mr. Iluskisson himself, the first great commercial reformer, advocated that measure only to the extent of the reciprocity system. The effect of this measure would be to give a stimulus to the naval power of foreign countries. The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the address of the President of the United States, which represented the marine of that country as progressing at such a rate, that if it continued to go on in the same way they would soon be the first maritime country in the world. There was no doubt that the United States was the most formidable power that this country ever met with on the sea. Besides, a great re volution had taken place in a neighbouring country, the effect of which would be to draw closer the ties of sym pathy which existed already between France and Ame rica. Was this a time, then, for them to do anything which would injure the naval power of the country ? He believed that this country would come out of a contest with thdse countries victorious ; but Parliament ought to be cautious before they committed an act which would lessen her power.—(Hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman said that protection was no longer necessary for this country. He (Mr. Robinson) believed that protection was necessary to give employment to the working classes, and if the contrary principle was adopted, the ruin of this country would be the result. 'He did not agree in all the views of Mr. liuskisson with respect to commerce and the navigation laws, but that great man never proposed any measure that was calculated to injure the country. On one occasion Mr. Huskisson said that when the interests of commerce and navigation could not be reconciled. the latter should be preferred to the former. The Right Hon. Gentleman alluded to the letter of Mr. Bancroft. Now, it was a maxim of the executive of the United States never to relax in carrying any point which it thought would be beneficial to that country, and Mr. Ban 'oft, having an American object in view, chose the might appear very present time, with great t act, to wr i te t h e l e tter which had been read. Alth oug h i t liberal on the part of th e U n i te d S tates to offer to reciprocate with them, h e wou ld recom mend'to the House nut to be led away b y t h at c i rcums t a nce, because the fact was, that th e U n i te d States h a d no advan tages to offer to this country if she repealed the navigation-laws, whereas the United States hail very great advantages to obtain from their repeal.—(Hear.) The advantage would, in fact, be all on one side. lie confessed he did not see the advantage of keeping any colonies at all, if their t ra d e was to be given up to foreigners. They would not be able to give employment to the people of the country if they gave up protection. They would be surrounded with a labour question which they would find very difficult of solution. Chartism was put down, but the cause which gave birth to it still existed, and would be aggravated if they passed this measure. lie was ready to support any measures for extending commerce, provid e d t h e y did not trench on the fundamental principle of the navigation-laws. Mr. lIUME said he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the great question the country would be called ou to solve was the labour question; and one of the reasons which induced him to support the repeal of the naviga tion-laws was, that it would unfetter commerce, and thereby open a field of employment to the working man. He did not think much of the exceptions made by the Go ' vernment—and perhaps they acted wisely in leaving the coasting trade untouched. It would, at all events, diminish- the alarm of the shipping interests. He saw interest res to f the ne reason why the shipping interests of this country could emit compete with those of other countries, provided they p ee pi w ng ln he thought,. r q e u d a u l nder terms. iisa T dv t shipping the rates of marine ought to be removed. For instance, _ c m o e u t n t t h ry em la o b n ou e ought to be reduced.— insurance were too high, and . respecting apprentices (Hear, hear.) The restriction s i t b.—(Hear, hear.) That ought also to be done away :tage and he believed that would be a very great advantage, _, e b to leave that point the effect of this measure would not see why the principle entirely voluntary. He co that people themselves were b e st able to manag e th e i r own affairs should not be well adopted with respect t o th e as with regard to all other s . shipping interest asevidence of the American captains, that they considered t It appeared, from the heir na vigation-laws inju r i ous to crippled the freo action of E ng li s h vessels. He thoug ht t them, because they ht much adva n t age wou ld be derived from a re dnOtiOn of the light dues. No less than 400,0001. was no w levied fo (H r ear, light, when 90,00 was 0/. hear.) He would answer the purpose. satisfied that the shipping the interest iteslf would have reason to rejoice that field of competition was thrown open. The introduction of the raw material of their was a great advantage to the manufactures duty fre e measure was the fitting sccom country, and the present -trade policy of late years. The paniment of their free opposite complained that only Hon. and Gallant Captainamined before the Committee. one naval officer was examined before the Committee. He did not know why that was so; bat the officer who He did not know why James Stirling) seemed to be was examined paintedii. with the subject, and he (Mr. thoroughly heardacquainted better evidence in his life than was Hume) never _ lema ,—(Hr hear.) As to man given by that n ge thoughtt it was a mistake to suppose ning the navy he would have an injurious effect. On that this measure. eased the carrying trade of the the contrary, if it increased h Id have much greater that we ou a country, it was clea r number of seamen to re ly upon in time of war than we se nt time. After expre ss i ng a could have at the p re , take hope that her Maj est y s Government would - the ty of stating what they intended to do earliest opportuni with the lighthouse and, d other questions, he concluded should give this h' • measure is cordial by declaring that he support. Lord G. BENTINC K could not thank the Govern menton of this measure; an d h for the introductione must say that in all his experience he had never h eard ll° great a change proposed on grounds s o un tenable and so feeb l y supported. It was not pretended that the country was petitioning for the change; that the people were growing Ma d er tiny Minna by ;ea ' 't • •• Jul ttila ' - 4A;IGZ V`' ttf eth yd xlco dots byano33N t yr taissni EVENING, MAY 16, 1848. son , of the present laws; that rates were too higo,,,or, that freight s were too scarce . Th e on ly r eason ass ig ae a: for this measure was that Prussia, forsooth, was inter fering with our trade. Prussia was the country of which the Right Hon. Baronet below him some time since declared that she " was coming round " —(A laugh) —that she was about to adopt our free trade system, and to adopt to the full all that the advo cates of that system had proposed. The Right, Hon. Gentleman had told them a story about a ship which had gone to the Canary Islands for cochineal , and on which f re i g h ts amounting to 6d. a lb. had been charged. Why, 6d. a lb. was about 561. a ton, and would any one believe that at half such a rate as that plenty of suitable ships could not have been found ready in British ports to go to the Canary Islands for >< freight? Why, even " the marines," for whom the Right Honourable Gen tleman evidently intended that story, could scarcely be expected to believe it.--(Laughter.) Then the Right Honourable Gentleman had referred to the characters of our mercantile marine, and had talked of their im moral and other vicious practices. He was not there to say that among twenty thousand men brought up to an arduous profession there might not be found many of immoral and vi c i ous character; but let them ask the in surance offices what they thought of the character of our seamen, and they would tell them that they insured British ships cheaper than an y others, because of the brave condu c t of our sailor s . Then as to accidents at sea: why all the returns before them proved that a far larger proportion of American vessels were wrecked and e stranded th an t h ose of vessels blungi England. B ut then the state of ong u mercantile ports in was referred to, and Sir Jenses Stirling's r opinions were quoted. Sir J. Stirling's practice, however, was op posed to his principles; for in the Hound, the vessel he commanded, the greater proportion of the men had never been in the navy at all. The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to tell them how it would be proposed to man the navy if the security we possessed was done away w i t h. It was remarkable that no member of the Government had ventured yet to s a y w h at h e ex pected to resul t f rom the operation of these measures . The Hon. G en tl eman opposite said it would be a most beneficial measure to the British trade. How increased competition would benefit that trade he could George Bentinck) could not see; but he cousee that it would be a me asure f or the benefit of p shipping, and f or the great advantage of the com merce of the United S tates. If the e Government knew nothing of the ad vantage it would confer o that country, at least th e U nited States' Ministell. knew it, for to-night he bad attended most carefully t , the debate. A return had been cited of the ships eint ployed and the revenue derived from the protected and unprotected trade of Great Britain. How was that re;- turn made out? Our trade with China was included ai an unprotected trade? as if we wanted protection against junks and bamboo bottoms. Our trade with Mexico was also cited, though Mexico had no marine of her own. If they had looked, however, at other branches of our general trade, they would have found that the theory of this return wail scarcely borne out.. Take the British West India trade, which was one of the least protected of all branches of our trade, and they would find there constant decline and constant disappointment. The returns, in fact, were calculated and meant to de ceive. —(Hear, hear.) And now let him ask what did the Government expect would be the diminution of the cost of freights under this new system? In a newspaper article written by one of the members of the Government, they were told that 2s. 6d. a ton was to be the saving derived by the consumers of this country. The question, therefore, came to this. Was the House, before they saw something more of the working of this free-trade system, prepared to make a sacrifice of at leust a million a year, at present paid to British shipowners ?—(Hear, hear.) During a very recent period her Majesty's Government and the Times newspaper raised great alarms about the probable rate of freights in bringing over corn; and the navigation-, laws Isad,•in consequence, been , suspended. But-it had now been proved that that measure was unnecessary; and not seeing that any substantial reason had been given for continuing to act upon its principle, he should certainly give the present measure all the opposition possible. He had only one word further to say, and that related to the effect of this measure in our colonies. It was his belief that our colonial trade would, if it passed, be thrown entirely into the hands of the Americans. He predicted the most disastrous consequences to the em pire from this circumstance. Mr. J. L. RICARDO could hardly reconcile some of the statements made by the Noble Lord. What he had said with regard to the, great proportion in the loss of American vessels over English ones, could be easily accounted for. The time to which his Lordship referred was one of great pressure, and when it was found ne cessary to send a large number of vessels upon the service. With regard to what had been said by the Noble Lord respecting the advantages ~which an open trade would give to the United Stated; lie begged entirely to disagree. He did not anticipate that any such effect would take place. It was a fact, that where as the United States' ships were the dearest built and manned of any in the world, by the arrangement which this country now had with them they monopo lised two-thirds of the trade ; and that whereas Prussia, having her ships built and manned more cheaply than any other country, was obliged to give us the whole trade between that country and this. The Noble Lord had stated that the Government had brought forward the measure on feeble grounds, and that the merchants and manufacturers of the country had no grievance to complain of. He (Mr. Ricardo) confessed that when he considered that the Noble Lord himself had begun by pointing out one grievance that he was ready to give up, he (:dr. Ricardo) could not understand how the Noble Lord could maintain the non- existence of grounds of complaint. The Noble Lord baying given up the point respecting the Lascars, how stood the case? Last year there was a great scarcity of raw ma terial and manufactures, and idleness, and consequently distress, ensued. At that very time there was great commercial distress in this country; failures were taking place on every side, and, amongst others, an old-este blished house in Newcastle failed, as they stated in the circuler issued to their creditors, entirely on account of - the state of the East India trade. He wished to point out the fact to them, that while such was the state of affairs in England—while the operatives in the manufacturing districts were starving for want of raw material—while merchants were becoming bankrupt to support the monopoly of ship owners—those very Lascars were manning the vessels of this country to support that very monopoly. He would maintain that if those ships which were ready to bring those commodities, which would have saved the opera tives of this country from starvation and her merchants from bankruptcy, instead of being built of Indian wood and manned by Indian men, had been built in the United States and manned by Americans, the injustice would have been equally great, the oppression equally tyrannical. The evil consisted not in the trade which was injured, but in the trade which was entirely stopped by the restrictions of which he complained. He would take the case of Australia. There were in this country hundreds and thousands of people unemployed, and anxious to go anywhere where they could find employ ment; there were in Australia thousands of acres un cultivated from want of people to -ultivate ; but there was in this country a navigation-law which would not allow them to go there. It was stated to the Com mittee upon that subject that there was a great deal of emigration taking place to Australia. Tho between deck fare to that place by the Bremen ships was ra ther below 121., and the charge from this country varied between 20/. and 25/.; and, moreover, it was stated that if there was any preference to be given to the vessels of either side in point of accommodation, that the difference was in favour of the Bremen ships. After such a contrast as he had shown, he asked where was there the justification for preseving such a law? It was a great grievance for a merchant to know that his com petitor in Germany was enabled to purchase cheaper than himself, while, when he met him in the market with the manufactured article, he was compellefi to sell it on equal terms. Bet the magnitude of the mischief was even greater than it appeared; it was not found out until some change of circumstances forced it upon public attention. There was a beaten track, and whenever it was tried to escape from it then the navieation-laws were heard of. He would take the case of Java. As soon as that House had opened the trade, some of our merchants sent out their English manufactures; the ships were obliged to go away and , bring back other cargoes, being compelled to trust to some other ship to bring back their cargoes from the island. It happened that there were several ships, but no British ships, at the place, so that the cargo could not be brought back ; and the merchants, finding the inconve nience thus entailed on them, abandoned the trade altogether. Such was the case with copper ore. They were obliged to have a particular ship to bring it, or they could not bring it at all. A measure had been passed in that House to let in copper ore free of duty. Now he knew the case of a merchant who had a large amount of that ore at Java which he desired to bring to this country, but in consequence of the law he found that in order to do so he would be obliged to send it back to Chili in the first place. He considered the restriction to involve an unjustifiable sacrifice which, unless some great and sufficient reason was shown for its continuance, was altogether inexcusable. The object which they had in view was expressed. in the title of the Bill," An Act for the encouragement of the commercial marine, with a view to manning the Royal Navy." Surely after 200 years of encouragement the navy of this country must be a model to the navies of other nations.—(gear, hear.) There was a document that had been laid on the table, which was a report from official gentletne appointed by su cc e ss i ve Ad m i n i strat i ons, of n n particular political bias, a n d h av i ng no onbilenc°t is siew but ,to give i n f orma ti on to the Forei It was written from all part s o f t h e world, witt n o - ut any possible means of communi ca ti on on the part of the e spective gentlemen; but, neve r th e l ess, there could not be a more unanimous opinion than was contained in that document—that the two hundred years of encouragementfii to the commercial marine h a d resulted in its superiority over other nations. Th e Noble Lord would forgive him if he said that he would rather trust to the gentlemen who had drawn up the report than to the Noble Lord himself for a tru e op i n i on on the matter. No man recognised more fully tha n h e the importan ce of keeping up the defensive resources of the country, and if the manner of the defensive n avy depended the commercial marine, the sooner its constitution was altered the better, for it leant on a broken reed. Al though these liws might be hallowed by time, yet they ought to examine and investigate them, in s t ea d of taking their beauties on trust, or they might be reduced to the condition of the frogs in the fable to whom Jupiter sent a king, whom they regarded for some time with much admiration on account of the splash he made in the water, but whom on inspection at last they found to be a mere log.—(Hear.) o pposed the propositi on of the R ight Mr. HENLEY Honourable Gentleman. The Hon. Member who spoke last had got up a case of abuse against merchant seamen is general, and be bad rested his "Is mainly on a blue- )94 4 WO 'VAC bsui ; book, in which, at all events, there was a con s iderable ,:number of contradictory statements. He would no more think of estimating the character of an entire people by the language applied by the magistrates of a country to the thieves 'brought before them, than he would of form. ing his opinion of the character and habits of seamen from evidence contained in a blue-book.—(Hear, hear.) What, he would ask, ,was the rate of insurance at Lloyd's for these ships, manned, according to the Honourable Gentleman, with such dissolute crews and such ignorant captains P Why he found that merchants could get their goods insured in_ these ships for less tha n th ey ones.—(Hear, in foreign ones.ear, hear.) Those Gentlemen who cried down the merchant service would do well to hear in mind the source from which the British navy was then manned.—(Hear, hear.) That navy beet everything it encountered, and it was manned principally from the merchant .service.—(Hear, hear.)'hear.)''And he had a firm confidence that if war were to commence again, in spits of the unjust imputations lavished on these men 1,3 y the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, these men would again do their duty equally well to their Queen and country. (Cheers.) Mr. MITCHELL cited some casettof the unfair work . ng of the present law, and the injury done to the trading interests by it. These special cases of injury, however, were necessarily few in number, because these laws had existed for more than 200 years, and few per sons indeed would think of bringing over goods to this country in opposition to the course prescribed by them. There was one statement made by the Hon. Member for Oxford, which he could contradict—that goods on foreign vessels were insured at a cheaper rate than if on English bottoms. Now, his conviction . wasi that Eng lish, on Lhe whole, were better than foreign ships. He was satisfied that the first class English vessels, such as those ensured engagedat lower nth r the East than lnd any India and trade, be might ships. The reason was obvious ; for not only, were the ships better, but their captains were educated men, well qualified to guard the interests of the owner, and to protect teteecnttrthusepd tero perty of the merchants who se freights were their care. It happened th at in other vessels the captains brought from before the mast, and were principally men a ship at sea in a who, though well able to managewhen conduct n e. n shore. He sh 0 u o ld e to storm, , a n we re examplewholltyn their be glad to see in the merchant service of . this country on board a merchant the command, or even as mate, them states of Europe, where no man was admitted to not merely in ship until he had passed an examination, of the educe.- of exchanges, and in most of the branches . navigation buein the knowledge of languages,the :rulee t be struck v ti i o si n te o d f haygeeariptlteaminasn.ef.l4l2moeorenheaysn-htosslicpotaintutinugs-.house was, crews Peten w t with the manifest difference between those of the Eng lish and those of fhe foreign mercantile service. He had' himself found that in 200 charter parties which came bef ore him in th e course of a year, t h ere was scarcely one to which the signature of an English captain legible. • red P and his ro these causes the shiwner was Kau the navigation ertrawjesopaanrdlitshevd4plrte nt had iee s b h e i p e n s3 sn s i t d e m th w a w e t w r i e f - abolished, there ythienree would be no means of manning the contended that the sa ane cif e a dl W ln a c r u . difficulty would arise under the present system, for such m was the Now w be h r e o ( f M ia r p . p M re i n tc t h i that there was a surplusa g e of able-bodied seamen, wir entboroutghhet ba ck service. How could were that dr i v surplusen whole, if he could think that -laws, he should a f f r ase of w a rt On tho the changes shipping would changes now sustain the slightest injury from pro posed in the navigation-laws, adopting those changes ; but be Was be very chary in good management would arise fr om the convinced th a t spirit of compe tition which these changes ;would create * bad would be got rid of, and activity and dispatch habits would be inculcated. Captain HARRIS remarked that he had heard' no thing in the course of this discussion to induce him Ito withdraw the notice he had given before the Speaker left the chair, of his intention to move, when the Chairman reported progress, that the Committee should not pit again until the report of the Lords' Committee was laid before the House. He did not wish to interfere unne cessarily, but he must say a word or two in relation; to the question of the commercial marine being the nursery for the service of the royal navy, and therefore for the maintenance of the national defences. On this sukkt —though many naval officers had volunteered to gire their evidence—only one, Sir James Stirling, had been examined before the Select Committee appointed at the instance of the Hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. L. Ricardo). He should be glad to have an explanatio4 of that circumstance, because he took exception to many parts of Sir James Stirling's evidence. That Gallant Officer, for whom he entertained the highest respect, had stated that of the seamen in the royal navy not more than one-tenth had been brought up in the merchant ser vice. This was negatived by returns made by ,the registrar of seamen, which be (Captain Harris) held in his hand ; and which showed a totally different state of facts, not only with regard to the ship Sir James Stir ling himself commanded at the time he gave his evi dence. but with reference to the crews of the Howe, the Leander, and the Amphitrite, all of which had been put into commission within the last year. If a state ment made by Sir J. Stirling were true, namely, that out of 20,000 men in the royal navy, only 1,000 were brought up in the commercial service, there would be at once an end of the whole question, as far as the navi gation-laws were concerned. The only observation he had to make on that statement was, that it was utterly incredible, and could not by possibility be well founded. His own personal experience led him to form a directly opposite conclusion, for recently, on a visit to Spithead, he had found no smaller a proportion than two to one of the seamen on board the Monarch and other ships lying there who had been brought up in the merchant service. —(Hear.) lie entreated Hon. Metnix rs, before voting on these resolutions, to wait for the report of the Lords' Committee on the navigation-laws. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would adjourn the iurther consideration of his resolution till that Commit tee had reported. Mr.LA BOUCHERE said he could not consent to this course, which would be altogether unworthy of this House. If any Hon. Gentleman dissented from the reso lution, be could express that dissent in the usual way. He now proposed to adjourn the further consideration of the resolution till Monday next. A message had been sent to the other House, requesting that when the evi dence of their Committee was reported, it might be com municated to this llouse. Mr. HUDSON wished a postponement for a fortnight, on account of the great importance of the subject. Look ing at the business before the House, the Health of Towns Bill and other measures, it was probable that this would' not occasion greater delay. Only two petitions had been as yet presented in favour of any change in the navigation-laws. Mr. LABOUCHERE—I presented four myself. Mr. HUDSON read from a return which stated that up to the 10th of May only two such petitions had been presented. The Right Honourable Gentle man had strongly abused the mercantile navy of the country. This reminded him of the celebrated instruc tions to a learned counsel—" No case, but 'please to abuse the plaintiff's attorney."—(Loud laughter.) He knew, notwithstanding the Right Hon. Gentleman's abuse, that the mercantile navy lived in the esteem and affections of the people of this country.—(Hear,hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman had admitted that British built ships were the best, and that British sailors were the best sailors ; but this was a question which did not depend on the quality of our ships or the excellence of our sailors. He had, therefore, read with great.regret the disparagement of our shipping by some of the con suls ; perhaps the reason might be that they were largely interested in foreign shipping. He was confident that the borough he represented, one of the largest ports in the kingdom, would strongly deprecate this measure. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that ship-building might be carried on without protection as well as other manufactures, but he seemed to have forgotten that the cotton and other manufactures were protected by 'a duty on foreign products. When the free-trade measures were proposed, two years ago, they were held out as the greatest blessings that could be devised; he should be glad to know what benefits had been derived from them. The further free -trade proposal now made would entail utter ruin on the shipping trade; and though it might be true that the best article was the cheapest in the long run, it was not every one who could afford to buy the best article; and the probability was that ship-building would almost • entirely leave this country. He 'earnestly hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would defer this reso lution for at least a fortnight, which would scateely be sufficient time for the House to dispose of the ponderous Health of Towns Bill. Mr. LABOUCHERE had no wish to press the matter unduly; but a s thi s was on ly a resoluti on on w hi c h a Bill was to be founded, he thought it not unreasonable to ask the House to resume its consideration this day week—anxious, as he was, that the Bill should become law in the present session .—(Hear, hear.) As to the mercantile marine, he had passed no sweeping censure upon it. Admitting the skill, courage, and able sea manship of the men, he had stated, on the authority of unquestionable returns, that the shipmasters were defi cient in the requisite qualifications; and in making this statement he thought himself a much better friend to the mercantile marine than any one who would withdraw at tention from the fact.—(Hear, hear.) 'ln the China and India, and other trades, he believed the qualifica tions of the masters were most unexceptionable; but in other trades, their deficiency in skill, and the conse quent want of discipline, were producing deplorable consequences, which could not too soon be brought under the notice of the House.---(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUDSON said if th e attacks made by these con suls were listened to, no man's character would be"te- Dr. BOWRING m oved that the Chairman shou ld re port progress, and ask leave to sit a gain. Lord INGESTRE said this would be a very incon venient Course. Let the House wait the ,result of other H ous e ; the inquiry b e f ore the Committee o f for the that would be m uch less derogatory to t heir dignity than to hurry on a discussion of this kind. The navigation _ommonweelth, and navigation laws dat e d from the time 0 f the Commonwealth, due deliberation, ought not to- be got rid o f He demanded that time should be given, and should Governm ent would not consent divide the House if the to postpone the matter for fortnight. The motion that the h a C irman do report ' progress and ask sion,then resumed. and the House d Captain HAR RIS then moved that the debate be post p o ned until that day fortnight. The Marquis of Granby supported the amendment, as did Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Wawn, and Mr. W. Miles. Mr. LABOUCHERE felt bound to oppose the amend ment, for he could not consent to any course calculated to prevent the measure from passing into law, if such were the pleasure of the Rouse, during the present session. Mr. HUDSON asked why, if the Government were so earnest to pass the measure this session, they had not introduced it at an earlier p er i o d ? . t 9 , CLUV 91 i m Mr. HENLEY called upon those who were opposed; to the measure to impede its progress by all the means'- which the forms of the House admitted. Colonel SIBTHORP said, that the conduct of the Government in this case was only another example of the principle acted upon by all Governments—of fere.: ing on their measures by every sort of miserable chicanery. The House then divided, when there appeared_vivas For Captain Harris's motien 2B Against it'. ... ... ... 62 J7T Majoritsi • - —34 Colonel SIBTHORP then moved the adjournment of the debate.. • The House then divided, when there appeared— 'For 'the motion Against i t 3/ . 6j , .„ajoritY 37 Lord G. BENTINCIt.was surprised that the Govern ment persisteditipessing forward so important a ques tion as the preieht without allowing nipple time to the country to express its opinion with regard - 6qt. If the Noble Lord at the head of the Government were in the HoUse, he was sure he would consent to the adjourn ment. Mr. LABOUCHERE consented to the adjournment of the debate till Thursday next, ,when his Noble 'riend at the head of the Government, who had the disposition of the publiq bUsiness, would state - what couree - he-would pursue. - • The debate was then adjourned. LIGHT DUES AND MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND BILL. On the motion of Mr. LABO-UCHERE, resolutions were agreed to for the purpose of enabling_•governisient to bring in Bills on these subjects. • PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. Lord MORPETH moved:the re-committal of this Bill pro for ma. Colonel SIBTHORP thought that when the Bill "was printed time ought to be given to consider it. He should wish to know whetlielitlie number of iverstnewho were to receive salaries had been reduced._ - ` . Mr. DITET? and - Mr. HUDSON expfaitsed the same SI wish. 7) Lord MORPETH said:that the - number-bit:hose who were to receive salaries was siery - much ctf4o W n. g e now proposed that they should proceed with the ' Bill on Thursday; and go on with it till nine o'cloeivoa , :that .f: evening- TlaeSs th e Bill was committed pro - prifrth• amendments inserted, the 13 ill ordered to be rePonted and to be recommitted on Thursday - next. The liouse adjourned at a Quarter to Two. COURT _AciftCULAR. -- itau The baptism of the areal ` ghter of the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland tookapface yesterday morning, in the private chapel of Buckingham Palace, in the presence of the. Queen and Prince Albert, the Lady Carolina Somers Cocks and the Hon. Matilda Paget (the Maids of Honour in Waiting)i the- Duke and - Duchess of Sutherland, • the Duke and Duchess of Bedford, th e Duke and Duchess of Argyll, Lady Rivera, Lady Dover, and Viscount Morpeth. • The Hon. and Rev. elkrkirpitoie Courtenay, her Majesty's domestic chapfati; offi4gisa_ at the ceremony. The sponsors were the Que4TLady Rivers, and the Duke of Bedford. The Queen named the infant " Alexandrine." Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, and the Princess Alice, took airings yes terday in the pleasure grounds of Buckingham Palace. Their ROyal Highnesses Prince Alfred, the Princess Helena, and the Princess Louisa, accompanied by the Dowager Lady Lyttelton, were taken an airing yesterday in an open carriage and four. Her Majesty and Prince Albert left Buckingham Palace at eight o'clock yesterday evening, to honour the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland with their company at di h n e y ne r r o , a a t l ct s u i t e consisted e f ide n res idence, r or din of the w a cu Stafford it iong to s Prince H n o t e us s e , St. James's. o f C h Albert), r 1 l e b m e o r t nt C (Lady Waiting ), Lord Byron (Lord in Waiting), Viscount Colonel th e Hon. Charles Grey (Equerry in Waiting to the Queen, a n d Captain the Ho n . Al exan d er G or d on Highness the in the Waiting to Prince Albert). Her Royal Duchess of K en t a l so honoured the Duke and Duchess of Sutherl a nd evening. Her nerol3a.nald with her comp an y at di nner last Highne ss h n S e i George s ; war sa Cg a tt ended Lady August a B ruce and C olonel nouepder.by Mr. Power, M.P., had an-7----7--zaterviews with Sir G. Grey yesterday. The Earl of Howard had also an interview yesterday with the Right Hon. Baronet, at the Home office. The Bishop of St. David's, the Bishop of St. Asaph, and Sir Thomas Phillips, had an interview with the Lord Lord President of the Council, on Friday, respecting education in the Principality of Wales. The Right Rev. Dr. Davis had an interview with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Colonial-office. Her Royal Highness the Duchess Bernhard of s ax . Weimar, visited her Reyal Highness the Duchess of Kent yesterday, at her residence. Clarence House, SL J ames's. The Hon. Edward Curzon had an interview with Uri Granville yesterday, at the office of the Board of Trade. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. TATTERSALL'S.—YESTERDAY, The Derby betting, quoted in our last, excited no little astonishment, Surplice and Nil Desperandum, who had previously been respectively at 13 and 16 to 1, figuring :it 5 and 6 to 1, and at the head of the list of favourites. They were , all the rage yesterday, the Danebury nag advancing to 11 to 2, and Surplice—after a large outlay at 10 to 3 and 3to I—to sto 2. With regard to the latter, we were publicly requested by Lord Clifden to make it known that, '` as he stood to win a large stake by one of his horses (evidently meaning Loadstone), and nothing by the other, he should entirely consult his own convenience as to which he should start, or which he should declare to win with." This announcement had no influence on the betting, Surplice remaining in immense force to the close. The rise of these new favourites almost paralysed the market, and made it so difficult to get at the prices of the other favourites, that we cannot pledge ourselves for the perfect accuracy of our quota tions; we believe, however, that they are very near the mark:— BONERSETIMIRE /TARTS. 7 to 4 agst Mr. Chamberlayoe's Silver Eel —taken Saddle and Duplicity were declared not to start at ft quarter-past three o'clock, and Bellenden at four o'clock. DERRY. 5 to 2 agst Lord Clifden's Surplice 11 to 2 agst Mr. J. B. Day's Nil Desperandum—tkn 9to 1 agst Mr. Bowes's Springy Jack-12 to 1 laid once 12 to 1 agst Lord Clifden's Loadatone 12 to 1 apt Mr. Payne's Glendower—taken 13 to 1 agst Mr. B. Gmen's Swiss Boy 20 to 1 agst Mr. B. Grobn's Shy lock 22 to 1 agst Lord Eglinton's Eagle's Plume 2522 t t o o a 1 a gt g:t Duke of R Mr. T. par u r t , l i an s d's pon ih g ' e— e ta F i k d e d n l e r 25 to 1 agst Mr. J. Scott's The Stinger 25 to 1 agst Mr. Pedley's Besborough—taken 33 to 1 agst Mr. Lillie's Great Western—taken 1,000 even between Eagle's Plume and The Fiddler OAKS. 6 to 1 agst Mr. Dixon's Do-it-again—taken 9 to 1 agst Mr. Foljambe's Queen of the May 9 to . 1 agst Baron Itothschild'a Sister to Satirist 10 to 1 agst Mr. Pedley's Cymba 13 to 1 agst Colonel Peel's lodine 14 to 1 agst Sir J. Hawley's Vexation—taken Thursday next is comparing day for the Derby and Oaks. APPREHENSION of the SWANSEA MURDERERS. SWANSEA, SATURDIT.—The excitement which has prevailed in this district during the present week was greatly increased on Thursday last by a vehicle being observed to enter the town, guarded by a couple of policemen with drawn swords. It was soon ascertained that the occupants were the murderers. The prisoner Thomas Martin was apprehended under very remark able circumstances. The police, -whilst scouring the country, had their attention directed to a wood by as extraordinary number of crows hovering round one of the trees, at the same time they were making an unusual noise. The officers imagined that probably some ono war concealed in the tree, ancLon_goigg_ to ascertain. whether such was the case or not they - faiiid the man concealed in a bush near the tree. From the state of his clothes it was quite apparent that he had been wash ing them, to remove the marks of blood. Patrick Leary, Michael Leary, William Norris, and John Norris were all apprehended in the-neighbourhood of Cambridge. Patrick Leary, on being identified by a man the police took along with them, said " I suppose you want me; I am willing to go. J am willing to suffer for what I have done." The prisoners, upon being searched at the police station, were found to have mark' of blood upon their clothing. They have all been placed in ci c u u e s e t t o di s , until the C oroner's broughti wliere t t o he a y c w lo i s l e l !amain —The fourbiu—ilt.r . iron, n Tam iv, w Hovritx LI 1 head steam-packets, the' hof tho 0 Y AD STBAM-TACKET LLERILLYI vessel and engines by Messrs. Llewelly n, Co., of Blackwell, was tried Miller, river on Saturday last, at the measured giving the 'tate of 17.8211 dowi 6 mile. She ran the first mile, with the tide. miles ; she performed the in 4 min. 30 sec., or at t‘ k he n ce o o t n r s a d t o e m rit o i na f le ev l ae 3 nr al l h i 3 a 3 in k at no t t h s e , or tic i ie s , i nautical, 2122:1saesctoantduste, statute miles; she mid. the third run with tide, in 3 Min. 25 sec., or at the rate of 17.561 knots, or more than 19i sititute miles; and the fourth run, against tide, in 4 min. 22 sec., er 13.74 knots, or 15i statute miles. The average speed of the four runs, therefore, was 15.614 knots, or 13 1.12 th statute miles an hour. It should be stated that the iron bottom of the Llewellyn was very foul. the vessel not having been docked since she was launched. This circumstance was of course s drawback on her performances. She has since been taken into dock, and her bottom has been cleaned, and on Monday she will proceed down the river on another trial, when the above excellent results, it is expected, will be ex. ceeded.— United Service Gazette. [ADYERTISMIENT.] A Severely Bruised and Wounded Leg Cured by Holloway's Ointment and rills. —Mr. Hugh 111 4 . Neil, of Kincardine, s shipwright, when working on a vessel, struck his leg a most violent blow, which inflicted a severe bruise and wound. The limb immediately turned black from the ankle to the hip; f a applications to it for weeks had no power to heal the wound. The sufferer having heard so much in praise of Holloway's Ointment and Pills, determined on trying them, and fortunatelyihe did, for by their use alone hie leg was cured, and he was able in a month to resume his work. Sold by all Drugists, and at Professor JiloUtv% way's establishment, 244, Strand, London. ~..: a,~