The Sun. — London, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

~...., gs un erior , but on tho to great advan, e was in poses' !s who support they, had made. rded as it was in ecessarily framed amount of sup )--but they had able Gentlemen distinctly that, :;12 they expect 'at were to be .y the speeches of Thaps, more sig m i g ht expect aa r.") He had no agly on the one 'horn it was oh lowed what were rued Gentleman were opposed to reform of all t o the questios he Irish Church if the Govern- Lon of the Noble y, that, therefore Lied that proposi rnme nt, and on v L Church did not at heavy and ire s of that Church, s were nolto be .ofesssed re the difficulties ta l eers.), r Cambridge, bp ), ich there were 0° out of the extent twelve such Pa' the whole ego' )articular circuity e could afford se prove that the, e parishes arose' O of their do ; there was set h the nam e . of always an xious lent, but it wa 6 a revenues. fle f Unions. It 0i. 5 t at he had alto,' !s and be had ia allition of Unions ion. and Learned nxious not to that the the pa rishes Lions, and it was Y parishes were estant pop.ulatio.2 the Union la d. lf, therefore, ; population t$ fib, all into one Faris° parishes were W t e r of the E ;Obi confident, •withos were the tourable Geatla; his argti le ,;il; lealt with ? e t he to the part ow ice a ne,,,,essary o iciest for t he po', arse. was m ere id He nos., rirm all abuse s / 13° ) ear, and clieers.o tld reform ttaa arned Getitleni, which the i te s o aer by -the ~1 . 4 0 . crimes of Pi'lbe Govern meats'-ce• the fir st instsicio'bie ition. 'of th e aid .effectually,vg It are from Eilttjv r'er, in the Yle lc . olo e inciples on sob, acted, to thejltr t did the edm h ? It asses ° , t i l e • reirentl es spiritual porA ition assulartio he dei)e-te ‘‘„ l who had sc o l i o. was a ny . s e ,' er e best interaoe was; not adegt:ir it lr rss to the re now sr . Pr e : h e fund's we°, boLl ▪ Par'iianaea,:f tbd xpec 4 ,:atio es that they rite r` ;ed c ,ut of e eat arse of tr` f tb the elergY,° lt4 has might 11;;egg as. 'the true e: bo It excited!erol 'He had ovs tha t r ‘ti jot, ` .dt,r, And sv as Oe s e tb those who 'l e a f ,t) ngland~ to tlio mistaken its„i;orc,' Protestant fia A Protestants:re ntry. Theb;orcl.4( 'rotestant (idrities eto the doc it b ; ., looked trifrceies' luty and 03 ' 1 "e r 5 1ti : .3 saw is th e vision of tß. e c os, r , tablishme a' - ; hear, hea tol: Wilde)' Cbye nation 0, it h t Connecte d iPtiavo blce es A Lclp emi rs yid itirof Line nt Pti,fiecloi l eJ Q w as sa i oe in the andejatOfrf • vete iewo'otte, x .perty , 11- re for al c: ✓ ty of tbe 4pert_ a ction Of 05 it uP° ° . t hO n t a low agr e ;nte ste i y of the P' VII a es of Ileolle.ooclsco, verned 00'4 hey oug h ' ioliation, w ere $0 1101:1;, a lapse o' e ss, l ,l after sac)! g erty 130t9!))1 ct after? fie t~ihe a u rch hal o of 8 i possessiostioci/ j u st to the Cathot of 0 ,1 argor ecii for e' l'e ,at this P to tj referel Olt f they n the r t iot t i „ mid fie ° the re ct o till when to le ohjeete,,a; venue ealotv C ' V ,r the was orifiaa,„ tort indefintte v,uolool l it, b ; V o l , the invieite e professed e u) , ,f 0 ,, A the p ea ea t 1.1-otn the e r rty 'Tate; c e ,nr lOC inva.' -e a r 0 11 , e 0 idangcr.asp :itch that of Ch i e tls ortion of , ,a 0 wsons was :.,11, proposed, aly,,j, ent had o f ddli• l the Nobl. rid of tb besf'ol Hear, tioSA, an • eseeP ‘','btotie rtn in the to leigyelec ins, or, d'IA ou ld sue "f,tiv nit not. , A g 0 been t age ;try )u ld hay e a IS d ' t h e la . jede clio parlr eft .00iiser • Chur t 0 40 1 5 by 1,1,10 1 author sty e Cb tb •eve n o f • revel' i? it oy tr t' bto that au , s 3i cte s tio• re h of ' 313 ' 4l : c ( tits tl ti ire. Is t oef t 111 e ° l ' e it Les cot mat to y th tr rer 10 aw e fir p y ;pa al' PSONANI su ch a measure as the one now brought forward. But if he heel to select perso ns w h o diff ere d mos t f rom e a ch other in their opi h,, I t,,g w,respecting the appropriation of Church property, he should name ' wara", Gentlemen opposite. The Noble Lord had, in bringing for churehni' proposition, confined his intentions to the mere surplus of and Y e rnPerty, after amply and sufficiently providing for the wants th 2:uci ncy of the Protestant establishment, and had proposed to apply to ' . urplus to the general purposes of education, but he had been fol .t:d_ by the Right Hon. Member for Staffordshire, and the Hon. and th :Zed iv Member for the Tower Hamlets, who had expressed Wh ich the as to tally opposed to the Established Church in Ireland, th e , e had described as a nuisance to be abolished. Could forgeta greed on as they had been told, that the late Government had of that h the appropriation of Church property, and yet a member ni „ o,pt,literthet ti o o o v t e h r e n r m th en an t n ec o e w le t s o ias ld ti t c h al em p that no part of it was to be urposes, until the claims of the Protestant Church had been fully satisfied, and then that surplus was t° he applied to none but the purpose of education? Let them d epend n hear so much of unanimity. But this question did not on such i ns i gn ifi can t circumstances. The main and only tinesti o n was, whether Church property was available to other than tio • et!istical p urposes. Th ey were t o ld th a t th e me re appropria -67 0 2.11 1 1. a limited p ar t o f t h a t pro p er ty w ould pacify and satisfy But would any man who knew the state of that country believe that that if the amount of that property were diminished, • d require the less exertion to collect tithes ? So far from h v t e Government to collect. the tithes in that country, it would only to new give rise to the expectations of farther concessions, and demands, which, not conceded, would but increase dis contenten_ and agitation. This appropriation was, as he conceived, y to moral duty, in direct. variance with its original pur ✓o- dangerous to the State, and hazardous to the welfare and sto w f the Protestant Church in that country. attention POWELL BUXTON should not have trespassed on the blon of th e H ouse if it w ere not for an amendment o t ch h a d to propose. --( H ear hear.) He should have sev _ ght it u nnecessary to a d ver t t o Observations which fell from hose Me rat Members on the other side of the ouse, attributin to ti s with whom he coincided as being acttua H ted by unworthy g mo ve_s% if it we re no t f or some remar k s w hi c h fell from the Hon. m_ ber for Newark with respect to the state of education, and the o maint enance of the Established Church in Ireland. The spread in e ducation his a n d th e ma i ntenance o f th e Established Church, were, impor tant inion, very different things, and involved vast and consequencesimpor whe in their separate adjustment.--(Hear, hear. )- 1 were the questions which were brought before the t h e tt 'e ti . The Nobl e L or d (Lord Stanley) had distinctly told wh a , house what Ireland and its distractions have been, and Its distractions may be. Again they have told us that the t7,afestant Church is at stake, and if you carry this motion Pro nzi,sreit_ent,ti.isvmes will be abandoned in the south of Ireland. With such se eat and important considerations, hecould not consistently listen attributing to him a desire to unseat the present Admi nistration on the party quibbles which were said to actuate some th 2z;,Members. There was no one who felt more then he did for fot e t r i oble Lord who had spoken on the other side of the House, to h. ere was no one who ought to feel more deeply indebted M having formed part of that Administration which uttenght forward and carried a question which he thought no e :'r Ministry would have done. It was a question beyond such ,onsideration that could induce him to offer his opinion in opposi ,nsinveto the Noble Lord. It appeared to him that the question re s.. d itself into three distinct principles. First, was there a ti u n r i enis fund belonging to the Church beyond what its claims re red? Secondly, was there also a surplus fund beyond the nece ssities of th e Irish Church, should that Church much increase ? 'idly, having made a provision as it was, having made a pro- B e vil as it might be, was there any excess still remaining ? roil believed there would still be a surplus. He did not oat "' into any nice calculations on a comparison of the e of the Churches in England and Ireland; yet he was con need the en d owments o f th e Church of Ireland were greater t those of England. It was an important mistake to say that a " 4 rell gathered weight or influence by its wealth or possessions. 1 4`, ,h eers- ) If splendid ag,grandizements and enormous endow me could have rendered it effectual in converting the people, would not have a single Catholic in the country. They had had Neli, they h a d h a d P ro testant ascendancy, and they had the ex- Lerenent and they had seen how it had failed. He should like to the experiment tried by a body of men, who if they entered the n ztrY, did so, not for wealth and honours, but from no other Li,"''"es but th a t o f doing good, and then he should anticipate a t e rent result. He did not think it was in human nature to re j.' the influence of men, who, showing the utmost self - denial , ,; tt in g in private retirement, and who show by their conduct and deportmentxis the visible influence of their divine embassy.— ; ) But then it was said. your example in Ireland would be riZeceent dog Enland. Be it so.—(Cheers. ) He desired l ei l og more than to see this principle of the surplus funds ng take n f rom t h e Cl erg y f or the education of the people.--( Hoar. ) sa far an from being enemy to the Church, or sacrificing anything to the nd prej u di ces o f th ose who were opposed to it, he should think, lq he was confirmed in his impression by what fell from th e I le thou for Newark, that he was promoting its best interests. the Irish thought there would be found to be a surplus of revenue in 4. , Church. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last night of ia Archbi s h op o f A rmag h, t o ld them he was not worth more than ten thousand a-year. Iti _An Hoe. MEMBER—Fourteen thousand. san - 7• F. BUXTON in continuation—Well, then, fourteen thou fool' I think from that, and even from ten thousand, a a l t „"er reduction could take place.— (Hear.) Let it d, be and where the clergy were non-resident and wealthy, .2 1 their incomes should be cut down. He came next to the he qu es ti on . W ou ld the Church, supposing it to increase, as t v had no d ou bt it wou ld, be amply provided for out of the reve !eB?" He thought the Protestant Church in Ireland would in -I,„easo, because the Catholic Church always had an unfair advan- Zge, that o f b e i n g a persecuted religion. There was something in 'e fact o f b e i ng su bj e ct to pains and penalties for the profession of any a nY particular form of belief that made one adhere to its doe and it should be recollected that bribery, though the time Pr otestant • dist an t, was one of the means taken to propagate the r etestant religion in Ireland--the bribery which offered te the son the estate of the father, provided he conformed to the Re formed faith. He honoured the Protesta nt reli g ion, but he dislik e di Protestant ascendancy. There was a broad distinction bet ween a religious establishment and a political faction .— ) When the Protestant religion condescended to appeal to e worst and basest passions of their nature, no wonder that the I"'hes of its sincere friends could not be realized. No wonder that 11: Catholics turned a deaf ear to a religion which was tendered to by those who bore the Scriptures in one hand and the sword -n the other. I n the south of Ireland, he did not think the Catholic , e t gion was any longer a persecuted faith—it was nearer approach se !bought when the people became acquainted with the divine t ruths of the Reformed Religion, and when they saw the solid ,eundations of the Church, they would embrace them. He did not !,)eliere there was in existence a more apostolic, a purer, or a more t he set of men then those who now formed the ministry of I `e Established Church in Ireland.—(Loud cheers from the Mi v,4.lstetial Benches.) He would do justice to those good men despite the cheers from the opposite side of the House. On these facts tested his hopes—on the loss of persecution which the Catholic Church sustained, and on the increased spirituality of the Church • taigland. He belive d the Chch would increase • at all -/e nte he would give it a fair trial. ur It was agreed on all hands that the usefulness of the clergy should be extended. Why should tt Stop there, and why should it be supposed that the Churchof ~,ngland b e i ng once inefficient in Ireland would always remain s o ? • it fair play—relieve it of the disastrous advantages which it is to possess, and he believed honestly that the established religion would flourish. So convinced was he that it would, that when the 'e• °Per time would arrive, he should propose a resolution to make a r°Per provision for that increase.—(Hear.) This, he understood, not a convenient time to make such a resolution, but he hoped, am ore that time would arrive, the Noble Lord would tell him t nat he c o n curred in such a proposition.—(Hear, hear.) l ie would now come to the last point--supposing there would be a it rOlus beyond the provision for the Church , how we re the y to ap ply? He must say, that he had been greatly gratified by one enmstance--namely, that no Irish Gentleman had risen to claim nts-et surplus for the Irish landlords. He sh ould have felt it his to opp o se such a proposition, as it would have been a desecra ti 00 of Church property to secular purposes, and, above all, it ; G eld not bring peace to Ireland.—( Bear, from the Irish benches. ) This, he was happy to say, had not been proposed, and yet the Pght 11.0 n. Gentleman opposite had objected to the Church Pro bei.eg applied to any but Ecclesiastical purposes. But I do not Anderstand that he objects to application of surplus (if any) to the I: s n e _ation_ of the people through the medium of the Church. feed s would give him (Mr. F . . Buxton) more pleasure or satis tChnl than such a proceeding.—(Ministerial cheers.) He , ° aglit that such a measure would be a remedy and compensation • Ireland for the series of persecutions which that country had endured, ltiut the thing was impossible.—(Loud cheers from the u Ppositionn ) The Church in Ireland presented itself in so odious r '° ,l ll—it had been so connected with Protestant ascendancy— P r e memory of injuries and insults was so fresh in the minds of the ish p eop l e, t h a t th e y wou ld not even receive truths from that C hurch. —(Hear.) Teaching the people through the medium 4 ' the Church was, therefore, saying that they would not be t a,nght at all.—( Cheers.) He now came to the resolution of the Lord, and he regretted deeply that he had been induced to ' e ave out in his resolution the words " moral and religious," and st thataute " general." The difference might appear to some little I Ito la ins it was great. He thought they were bound to shew the People of England that if they alienated the Church property they Were bound to apply it to moral and religious instruction. He therefore coped the Noble Lord would not object to the re-insertion of t hese words, and if they were introduced he should entirely 4.Pprove of the motion of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) What h istory, had they heard of I r e land last ni g ht ? The Right Hon. ,7n Gallant Member for Launceston had asked them to name any pe 7°d, to take their own time- to go ba ck even to the da y s of Henrylthe " t n—and he would show them that the system pursued in Ireland had been a system of war, bloodshed, and rapine.—( Cheers.) He believed that the only way to make the people of Ireland good sub jects, was to snake them good Protestants, and that he believed etedd only be effected by a general hurtsystem of moral nnd religious ts i nstruction. He meant not to the feelings of any Hon. Mem ers, but it WAS evident that there was error somewhere, either on The one side or the other, and the only way to banish error and t'ltablish t ru th, was to give the people a moral andreligious education. It would, in his opinion, be applying the surplus revenues to the best PurPoses—to make Protestants of the Catholics. It was the only way, In the resent state of Ireland, of removing th e reli g ious animosity which existed there, and which had been the bane of that country which had produced great evils, but none greater or deeper than that of standing in the way of propagating the reli g ion of the .Bible.--(Cheers, and loud cries for Mr. Shaw. ) Mr. 11. TWISS, however, proceeded. He said almost every Member who had yet spoken, had laid great stress upon the vast itnportanee of the question then before the House. If the Mem bers would admit that the question involved the existence, not only of the Irish, but of the English Church, then it was of the utmost im- Ttiance. But considering it only as to the chance of a small surplus e considered it as one of the most trifling of any that had been 'taken that session. The only argument that had been used in the debate was the old one of the hardship imposed upon the Catholic Peasant, by the payment of tithes. But the proposition before the House would not relieve him from any part of that hardship, and he did not belYtve that the Catholic peasant or the small far mer will be induced to pest tithes as a land charge, merely because a small portion of it was to be applied for the purposes of education. The principal supporters of the resolution were those who last session had opposed that of the Hon. Member for St. Albans--he did not wish to pick up a single or stray expression of a n Hon. Member, but when he saw a series of members going dia. metrieally opposed to their recorded opinions upon so important a subject, he must say that it bore all the appearance of faction. The Hon. Member then compared the opinions of Lord John Russell as declared upon Mr. Ward's motion, and those he expressed on open ing the debate, and contended that as there was now no .more information before the House than they were possessed of, fin, and of course the argumen t was as stron g now as then. lon Althorp after stating his plans to the House, said, " I trust they will give satisfaction." Then a cheer followed, and the "unie Lord added, " That cheer assures me of it." His Lordship 'tattered himself that he had effectually succeeded. But did his Hight Hon. Friend and his colleague do their duty by this Bill ? If they did, what was the standard of their demands, now, which they asked in tones of such inveterate complaint ? But they did not do their duty ; with what grace, then, could they now {Urn round. and complain of their successors ?—(Hear. ) It was T proposed to give the surplus revenue to educate the poor, but had he not a right to ask, though there were large' livings, was it not also true that there were some very small ones, too, and if they re reduced the large ones, ought not the small ones to be augmented ?—( Hear, hear.) The Church had a right to enjoy the surplus, if there was any, but what was the total revenue now applicable to the Irish Church ? It would turn out that there was not a larger amount allowed than the exigencies of the Irish Church required. When Lord Althorp made his statement he began with a very remarkable expression, to the effect that on no other subject did such great misapprehension prevail as upon the revenues of the Irish Church. But the Hon. Gentlemen opposite contended that if ten bishoprics could be torn away, something else could also be spared.—( Hear.) Was that the way to look at the question ? The Hon. Member for Halifax said 100,0001. a year might be saved from the Irish Church revenue, but what would be the im mediate relief so boastfully promised? Why it was mummery to call it a question of relief, for amongst the people of Ireland it would amount to just four pence per head. It was a ridicule upon the Irish people to suppose that such a modicum could be any relief to them. What was there to justify the change in opinion of Gentlemen on the other side ?—(Hear, hear.) He would not again rely upon the authority of Lord Brougham, because,notwithstanding his great talents, he was not popular upon this question with the gentlemen on the other side ; but Lord Lansdowne was not open to the same objection, and he said, in his place in the House of Lords, that nothing would induce him to consent to the appropriation of any part of the revenues of the Irish Church to other purposes than those, or some analogous to them, to which they were now by law appropriated.—( Hear, hear.) What was the difference between the course pursued by the Government of Earl Grey and that of the present? He saw none.—(Loud cries of " Question.") The proposition of the Noble Lord meant one thing and professed another—it created circumstances in order to use them.—(Re newed cries of " Question.") He would not trespass longer upon the attention of the House, but would conclude by thanking them or the indulgence they had shewn him. L•rd CLEMENTS, Mr. O'CONNELL, and several other Members then rose together. There were loud cries for Mr. O'Connell, bet the Learned Gentleman gave way to Lord Clements. Lord CLEMENTS then proceeded to say it might be pre sumptuous in him, a plain country gentleman, to come forward after the House had listened to so many learned gentleman for a length of time, but if the House would grant him indulgence for five minutes,he would not trespass on their attention longer. The remarks he should have to make would only have reference to the effect this motion would have in Ireland. He considered, as had been said by the Gallant Officer opposite, that a great deal of the discontent and disturbance in Ireland might be traced to other causes besides that of religious discord. But he would say, that unless they attempted to remove that religious discord, all other endeavours to quiet Ireland would be utterly ineffectual. This measure was a sine qua non to removing religious discord. He would not pretend to deny that Honourable Gentlemen opposite had shewn that by means of certain laws that had lately passed, a great portion of the surplus had been frittered away.—( Hear, hear.) He la mented it, but whose fault was it ? There were two complaints against the Protestant establishment in Ireland; one was, that the revenues of the Church were excessive in proportion to the duties that were to be performed, and that thereby its efficiency was di minished ; the other was, that it did not afford that spiritual instruc tion to the majority of the people, or to the poorer ranks of society that was necessary ; and there were many who, though they admitted there was ground for the first complaint, yet they stated that the Irish population were so anxious to get rid of the Church alto gether, that they were determined to resist all reduction in the revenues of the Establishment. —(" Hear, hear," from Lord Stanley.) He admitted the Catholics of Ireland were anxious to get rid of the Established Church.—(Ministerial cheers.) It was no secret ; but the Protestant Establishment had two objects in view : th onewas, instruction in religion and moral duty, a other was entirely a political object, and one which he should always condemn.—(Hear, hear.) What he advo cated was equality, and if he were a Catholic he would never sub mit to any thing but equality.—(Hear, hear.) The Roman Ca tholic Religion was established in Ireland as much as any religion could be, and he regretted it, for he wished to see Protestant ascendancy established, so far as the doctrines of Protestantism was concerned, as he believed they were true, and inculcated charity and peace. As it is, unless perfect religious equality was established—by which he meant a diminution of the re venues of the Protestant Ch.irch to_ meet the legitimate wants of the people, and the payment of the Roman Catholic Clergy by the State—no peace could be expected in Ireland. [When the Noble Lord sat down, there were loud cries of " O'Connell, O'Connell," from all parts of the House. ] In the midst of the confusion occasioned by these calls, Mr. BORTHWICK rose to address the House, but such was the uproar that ensued, not a word could be heard from the Hon. Member. For five or six minutes he stood, apparently addressing the House, and making the most violent gesticulations. At every pause he made, the cries of—Question, question—divide, divide, were raised. Having obtained a partial hearing, we understood him to say that it was his intention to have given way, but as the House would not permit him even to state that such was his de termination, he was now determined to stand upon his right. and therefore begged to move, that the resolution of the Noble Lord be read. The SPEAKER accordingly read the resolution. The SPEAKER thought that Hon. Members were pursuing a course that would neither be advantageous to themselves or the THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, APRIL 3, 1835. House. Mr. BORTHWICK again rose amid loud cries of " Question, question," and " Divide, divide." He could assure the House that he would occupy only a few minutes of its time, reserving to himself the right, should the present matter be carried further, to explain his views and feelings upon it more in detail. He was called upon by the Noble Lord opposite to vote for a resolution that the House should go into Committee to determine whether the sur plus revenues (if there were any) of the Irish Church should or should not be devoted to the general education of the people of Ireland.—(Here the cries of " Divide, divide," and " Question, question," resounded from all parts of the House. ) The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to speak amidst so much confu sion, and cries of " question," that he was inaudible for some minutes. He had the deepest respect for the deliberations of the House, and if he had used any improper or disrespectful expres sion, it was not intentional.--(Question.) Was that the hearing which the House granted to these who appealed to its indulgence ? —( Great noise, and cries of Oh, and Question.) He had only intended to speak on the two grounds to which he had alluded, and reserved to himself the right of saying more in the Committee if the question should be referred to one.—(Here the noise and the cries of " Question," and " Divide," became tremendous, and the Hen. Member sat down.) Mr. O'CONNELL—I should not trespass at this late hour of the night, but that I am unwilling to allow so important a discus sion to the interests of Ireland to be passed over without offering a few observations on the subject. I shall endeavour to be as brief as possible, and shall not allow myself to be carried away by the cheers, nor put down by the ridicule of either side of the House. I am an humble individual—(Cheers) --and, as I am, I have a duty to perform which does not fall to every Honourable Mem ber of this House.—(Hear, hear.) You have been four nights— important nights debating on a subject of deep interest to Ireland. To-morrow's post will carry the result of your deliberations 'What is to be done—either that there is a hope of better council and good Government to Ireland, or of deep exasperation. You ought to be aware that for 400 years Ireland has been misgoverned. Who is it that will deny me this ? I never heard any body yet hardy enough to deny so known a fact, and if there was 1 would shout him down, and treat the denial with contempt. The Gallant Officer did not qualify it by denying it, but by saying that it was not on the score of religion. " Religion," says he, " iisnot the cause of it." These are consequences of comparative inferiority. On the one hand, there was the petulant and overstriding spirit of one party, with the domination and the bigotry of another. By the endl of this night's debate we shall know whether there is to be a better system established, and whether we are to hope for a better form of Government to be substituted. I think the value of this decla ration consists in its being an earnest pledge that better days are at hand. It is not who shall be the Ministry, but it ought to go either to a denial of justice—the hundredth thousandth denial, or it ought to be as the first proclamation that a better system was about to be given to that country. Oh, I should be disposed to trespass on the House in stating her grievances. Who is it that denies her capabilities? Who is it that denies her fertility? Who is it that deniesher abundance—or who is it that denies the endowments which nature and Nature's God hath given her. What country has so many opportunities—What country so miserable ? You have produced it. The British Government, I arraign you for this. It has been the system of Government you have adopted towards Ire land that have produced these effects which you now behold.— And why should it be so ? The people of England are protestants. The Church of the people is the Church of the State, and there is that community between the Church and the people, that they both blend. The religion of the people of Scotland is the religion of the State. There is no party feeling exists between them, because this reli gion was made subject to the requirements of the country. But I agree with the Hon. Member for Weymouth. Ido not want to make the religion of the country the religion of the State ; (Cries of " Hear, hear")—for I mean to say that there is nothing so destructive as to make the Church so rich as to be too attentive to the affairs of the State—inattentive to the wants of its dependants. Ireland does not want the religion of the people to be the religion of the State—if the Protestant be the better religion let it succeed, and if it be the better it will succeed. Nay I say more, that it ought to succeed.—(Hear, hear, hear. ) But can you, under the present system, approach the Irish peasant, and ask him to change his faith while you address him in the garb of an oppressor.—(Cheers.) I assure the House I am passing as rapidly over the topics which are passing in my mind as rapidly as I possibly can, and I lay down the position that Ireland has been long and grievously misgoverned.—( Hear, hear.) lam ready to prove it. I can show distinctly that one principle should be extended to the three countries, and I ask you no longer to give all the wealth, and every thing that is raised from the people, to a Church to which they do not belong, and from whose doctrines they con scientiously dissent.—(Loud cheers.) Let me here just say that I cordially concur with my Friend the Member for Wey mouth. If the Protestant religion should increase under the circumstances he has mentioned, the Members of it can fairly and honestly come into this House, and ask for an increase of its revenues. There is not one particle of anything savouring of bigotry or of exclusiveness—not one particle of any thing which calls upon you to act against Protestantism in the resolution, or in the system proposed by the Noble Lord, of which I am now the advocate. Why do you oppose the motion as Protestants and Statesmen? Do you oppose it on the ground of religion or of State policy ? Have you the ground of religious motives ? For three hundred years you have used every instrument to convert the Catholics to Protestantism. No such scenes were ever witnessed in any country as were enacted in that.—( Cheers.) All the power of the State—all the emaciating cruelties of a barbarous Penal Code—were put in force to induce the Irish people to abandon their faith. You gave to the Protestant religion dignity, and state, And worldly honours, and you loaded the professors of the religion of the majority of the people with penalties and disgrace. They had despoiled their altars--they had profaned their tem ples—deprived them of their churches, and threw every ob stacle in the way of the ancient faith. Could that be done in England ? Would it be tolerated in this country ? Would any man be so mad as to think that the two millions of British Catholics would be allowed to make the Catholic religion the religion of the.. State ?—that they could make the people pay the tithes, and oblations and offerings to the clergy, whose services they required not ? If the attempt were made, it is not in Parliament they would then be discussing the question. It would long since have been decided elsewhere. Did not the people of Eng land before di s pute the right of a Monarch who attempted to do violence to their consciences, and sent him a fugitive and a miserable outcast from his kingdom ? The experiment had been tried, but it had not succeeded. I will not detain the House by particular instances, but I will take the county Kerry, which it has been stated, in the year 1731, ac cording to Parliamentary returns, had a population in which the Protestants were to the Catholics as twelve to one. What is the population now ? 1 shall be able to shew the House, that the proportion of the Protestants to the Catholics now is as fifty-two to one.—( Hear.) Have you succeeded there ?—( Cneers. ) Take any other part of the country, and you will find that the re sult has been precisely similar. Sir, I would net have attempted to address the House at all if it had not been contended that as Pretestanis you were bound to defend the present system. If it hail not ix - urged by the Noble Lord hat all they wanted were your , active curates, possessing, above all things, " nerve." —( Chetrs I seghter.) This was a very curious compliment to all the by-e - "men, who, it appears from this, were not very active, sed no " nerve."---(Renewed laughter.) You have heel 300 years at work before you fished up this " nerve," and yet .nen were ever more eulogized than the Pro testant Clergy of Itssand—their merits had been most ovtrageously eulogized.—(Hear, and a laugh.) It had been said that they had nothing but a mere 12,0001. or 14,0001. a year, and out of this they had subscribed some 101. or 121. in beautifying a church, and had been great benefactors to it.—( Cries of "No, no!" from the Mi nisterial benches.) Well, then, they had not been benefactors of the Church.—( Laughter.) The Right Hon. the Member for the University of Cambridge has taken up the story of the Noble Lord, and has remarked upon the advantages that would accrue from having clergymen of " nerve." The Noble Lord has called my town of Cahirciveen a village—l beg he will in future call it a town.--(Hear and a laugh.) He had stated that some few years ago divine service had ceased to be performed in the Protestant Church there. I beg to set him right. Divine service has never eeased to be performed there, and the congregation was between 60 and 70, in a population of about 70,000. According to the re turns of 18'21 the congregation was 74, so that instead of an in. crease there was a diminution. When I got possession of that property there were only five houses in the town, two Protestant and three Catholics. In the year 1821, the number of houses was 87, and the inhabitants amounted to 205; and in the year 1831, there were 189 houses, and 21 more building, and 1,195 inhabi tants; so that in ten years the inhabitants increased from 205 to 1,195, but the number of Protestants had not increased in the same ratio as the population has. But would the clergymen say he had made a single convert since he had been there He could not. But I will tell him that one of the heads of a family there, who was at that time a Protestant, is at the present time a Catholic, and the clerk to the curate died a Catholic. Such is the history of the way in which you make Protestants. It was true there are more Protestants in the town now than formerly, but it was owing to a relation of his own, a cousin-german, going with ten children, all Protestants, to live there.—( Laughter. ) This is certainly a young man of nerve.--( Laughter.) He has a rectory at Dingle, to which he goes twice a year at shearing time, but the flock never sees him at any other time.—(Laughter. ) He also collects the rents of Sir William Blennerhasset, and the tithes of the clergy, and he is the most busy magistrate in all Kerry ; but he believed - he was at present feathering his family on the Continent. This is the way in which you multiply Protes tants.(Laughter. ) It may serve for a moment's sport, but in sober sadness, how does it operate upon the people of Ireland ? I have received a letter respecting a place of which Mr. Man ners is the rector, where there are 4,011 Catholics, and only three Protestants, the income being 1,5001. wear.—( Hear, hear.) I have this upon the authority of the Rev. . Young, the parish Priest.—(Cries of " Oh" from the Ministerial side, and " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) He enumerated every one of them, and wrote to me saying that there could not be a better man living than Mr. Manners. He never sent the military or the police to enforce the payment of tithes.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But the composition has not been paid him for two years— (Cheers and laughter)—though the gentleman was so well liked, the system is so unpopular that he was not paid one shilling. How are you to mend this ?--( Cheers.) I hope it will be admitted that the Hon. Member for Weymouth was as good a Protestant as any in the House, yet he entirely agrees with my principle—he says that it is vain to suppose that the Irish people were to be Protestanized by the means now taken ; that the people of that country are to be made Christians by the bayonets of policemen or the muskets of the sol diery. The Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary for Ireland, and no man would suspect him of attempting to misrepresent his inten tions--but what signify those intentions when he is surrounded by the Protestant ascendancy party who have religion on their tongues, while their hearts are filled with hate ?—( Groans from the Minis terialists, and cheers from the Opposition.) The History of Ire land proves my position, and now is the time for the administration to consider whether they are to take upend be nursed by that party, or if the poor of Ireland are to have their case at all taken into consi deration. Something must be done for Ireland—the Gallant Ge neral, the Secretary for Ireland, has told you that tithes cannot be collected under th 3 old form, and he calls upon you—upon the people of England—to pay one million, one more million—the people of England are to pay this whole million for the power of misgoverning Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Ex chequer would not give up the million if he had the slightest chance—the slightest hope of ever recovering it. We have heard much of law—let us try . now—will any one Member in the House tell me that the money is not due? Then why is it not called up? The Gallant Officer has told you the reason you could not by any means in your power get it. Though the people of Ireland have not, like their brethren of Scotland, turned out upon the hills with their keen swords by their sides, yet it is confessed by the Govern ment that the feeling is so strong in that country, that it is impossible that the million can ever be recovered.—(Hear.) I hope the Member for Londonde rr y is within hearing. Had the House heard of the determination come to in that country since the landlords had taken upon themselves the payment of tithe ? 1 had the fact from an authority so high, that if I named him, and I should not for a moment hesitate to do so in private, there is not a Gentleman on the other side who would nut admit that my authority is incapable of deceiving me. Thus we have the North equally with the South forming in a resistance to tithe. But what will be the consequence in the South ? I implore Hon. Gentlemen whether they are satisfied that they can make Protes tants by this system, or whether they are satisfied that they should not make Protestants by such a system, to pause before they come to a vote between the hopes of the people of Ireland, and the en deavour to suffocate those hopes by the plan of turning the land lords into tithe agents.—(Loud and continued cheering.) It will only make the case infinitely worse, and the Whiteboyism which assailed tithes before, would now assail rent as well as tithes with equal eagerness and desperation.—( Hear, hear.) Is this system to continue? The Noble Lord (the Member for Devon shire) holds out hopes; which were well re-echoed by the Noble Lord, the Member for Northumberland (Howick. ) I wish the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire (Stanley) would join both of those Noble Lords—(Hear, hear)—and why should he not?— (Loud cheers, and laughter.) He had voted for the 147th clause, and if he has changed, why should he not change back again—( Cheers.) Is perpetual service to be placed in the way of improvement ? We are told that the surplus is small. Yes, but the prinoiple is great—(Loud cheering.) It should be worked out thus—that as Protestantism diminishes it ought to diminish, and if it increases it (the means of the Church we suppose) ought to increase. The Hon. Member for Weymouth said that as Protestantism increased, the revenues ought to increase, and the very moment he said so the reverse -of the proposition occurred to me—(Hear, hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side are afraid of a Catholic ascendancy. This is not a period to be afraid of the establishment of any ascendancy. The time of ascendancies is gone, except in England. This is the only country where the clergymen of all classes, when they differ from the religion of the State, are not paid equally by the State. Go to America, will you find it there?—(Cheers.) In every State of Europe we are become a laughing-stock, and an object of contempt. Talk of the Catholic ascendancy in Ireland! Why the Catholics of Ireland were three times in power since the rebellion, and they never persecuted the Protestants. In the reign of Queen Mary, while she was desolating England by persecution, and persons on scaffolds and stakes were burned in London and Bristol, what was the conduct of the Catholic Corporation of Dublin? Did they persecute? Look at Harris's History of that period, as inimical a writer as ever wrote against the Catholic religion, and there you find that the Catholic Corporation of Dublin, oh, how unlike its successor !- .(hear, hear, and laughter)--actually opened 70 dwelling houses for the English Protestants flying from Bristol, with their families, from the persecution of Catholic Mary, and kept them in security, and nurtured them all free of expense for a year and a half, until death relieved the country from the persecution of that unfortunate Queen.--( Cheers.) You taunt some Hon. Members for introducing the state of Belgium. Are you aware that is a Catholic Parliament, that is, there is no ex clusion of Protestants from the House of Commons, and that the Catholic clergy are as eligible for a seat in the House; and, upon a late occasion when it was proposed to make a grant to a Protestant clergyman in Brussels for the benefit of the English there, it was put to the vote, and was carried by an overwhelming majority, three of the Catholic Clergy having voted for the grant, and only one being found bigotted enough to oppose it—( Hear) —while all over the world the symptoms of charity and benevolence exist. It is only in Ire land that you foster discord.—(Hear, hear.) You come into office, you place their henchmen at the head of the State—you cram the Privy Council with them--(Cheers)—and they, through respect to you, carry on the Government amidst blood and burning.-- (Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the House), reiterated by cheers from the Opposition.) Yes ; blood !---( Cheers. ) But what does the Parliament propose now to do ? Will they rally round the people of Ireland? Will they throw the shield of their protection over her? The remedies that should be applied to the case of Ireland were well described by Johnson years ago. Bos well, in his life of Johnson, is said to have burst forth and asked— " Pray Mr. Dilly"—(Loud laughter.) He (Mr. O'C.) wished that the modern Dillys would act in the same manner.—(Conti nued laughter.) Mr. O'C. then proceeded to read the passage, the substance of which was that in Ireland the majority had long been under the sway of the minority, and that there was no instance in the ten persecutions to equal the oppressions which were inflicted by the Protestants upon the Catholics of Ireland, If they were sold as they were con quered it would be fair, but you cannot sell them, nor can you conquer them. Therefore the best thing you can do, is to do the country justice.—( Cheers.) It may be said that lam disposed to advocate a Repeal of the Union. I am, but how do you propose to reconcile me to a contrary course ? Is it by refusing to do justice to Ireland. We have heard a great deal of cant about good intentions towards Ireland, and on this motion they had seen the rats scuttling across the room—they had every thing but fair declara tions on the subject of this great question. My opinion is in favor of Repeal of the Union. lam ready to give up that question if justice is done to Ireland. lam told that this Parliament will do as much justice to Ireland as that country might expect from an Irish Par liament. Don't tell us that such are your intentions, but shew us some practical proofs of your sincerity. The Right Hon. Bart. (Sir. J. Graham) has quoted a speech of mine that was hastily delivered. My opinions, I admit, are strong, and sometimes car ried to an extreme ; but do I not know, and does not every more Hon. Gentleman know, that no good Government was ever yet formed except on a compromise of opposite opinions, and a recon ciliation of extremes. Robespierre and Marat, with a guillotine at their backs, succeeded, after all, only in establishing a iron despotism than what they desired to abolish.—(Hear.) Ireland is ready, and I am ready, to enter into a compromise. She is now in the throes of agony at the exhibition of the Orange flag, and would unwillingly, if the Government combined with her, enter into that compromise. You tell her to wait awhile, but if she does wait awhile she may rise in the wild pangs of revenge, and reek her vengeance upon the most innocent. That, Sir, is the state of Ireland. There never was a period so well adapted as the present to do good to Ireland. All we require is justice, and we call upon the House to show that it is disposed to do so. I called upon the House in the last Session to do justice to Ireland —it re sponded to my call, and passed the Tithe Bill ! Our Church re mains unpolluted by the mammon of unrighteousness. It is not less efficacious for its purposes. The voluntary principle has an swered every purpose for us; we therefore call upon you to adopt this motion, which, if you are sincere Protestants, you ought to adopt; for it is a motion to adapt the surplus revenue of the Church to education. You say the Papists are ignorant—give us the money to instruct us, and you put us upon the road to learning. Give us this motion, and let religion have fair play ; refuse it, and you send a proclamation to Ireland that will fill the country with horror and dismay. Great cheering. ) Sir ROBERT PEEL then rose and said—lt is because I take very much the same view of the construction which is to be put on the intention and effects of this motion as those who have preceded me—it is because I believe it will be considered in Ireland as a pro clamation, because 1 believe that false hopes will be excited on be half of the Roman Catholics, and fear inspired into the Protestants, unless you act, on this occasion, with peculiar circumspection and caution—it is, I say, because I believe these things, that lam in duced, on account of the situation which I hold, to overcome that disinclination which every man must have, whatever be his expe rience in addressing public assemblies under similar circumstances that disinclinlation which I must now especially feel, when the attention of the House is exhausted, and when every novel ar. gurnent which could h- has been advaneel with thA greatr•st felicity and po - ,N, say, but my puldic, duty —n,,thing but the official duty of the station which I occupy could make me overcome that disinclination by making a further applica tion for the indulgence and patient attention of the House.— (" Hear, hear," and cheers !") Sir, in a critical period, at a time when Ireland is convulsed, we are called on to decide this great question, what steps shall we take for the purpose of asserting an almost abdicated right to property.—( Hear, hear.) Four years have passed without the assertion—the practical assertion—of that right in many parts of Ireland. The Limo is arriving when Par liament must interfere—when Parliament, I say, must interfere either by its own intrinsic authority or the authority of the law, in recovering the rights, which, if they shall be permitted to remain longer in abeyance, may be lost for ever.--(Cheers.) There are four courses to be pursued ; for I am so impressed with the impor tance of the subject, and the result of this debate, that I pass over all that past of it which consisted in personal sarcasms—all that part of it which consisted in personal allusions—(Cheering.)—in cri minations and recriminations : I have no quotations to make, no scraps of speeches to read ; I have very little confidence in my own infallibility, and very little in the infallibility of others. It would be no gratification to me to divert the attention of the House from this most important practical subject (for it must in its bearings be considered a practical one) by any petty, paltry triumph over a po litieal opponent—by proving from Hansard's Parliamentary Debates, or The Mirror of Parliament, that last year he enter tained different opinions from those which he now professes.— ( Vehement cheering from the Ministerial side.) You are called on to decide a great question of public policy. There are four courses open to you, and four courses which you are competent to take. You may determine upon maintaining the Church of Ireland in the possession of its property—that is the first course. You may assert that property to be excessive, and practically settle the question by determining the amount of the excess : you may discard all false expectations by saying " that is the amount vie have determined to take from you, but the rest shall remain in your possession." That is the se cond course.—(Hear, hear, hear, and Ministerial cheering.) The next course is that which will do that full justice which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin demanded, not in distinct terms, indeed, but to which the whole of his arguments were di rected, and which will destroy the predominance of any favourite religion, by either withholding the establishment from it, or grant ing it to all persuasions ; and that is a final settlement of the ques tion which you have to consider.—( Cheers.) That, then, is the third of the courses of which I have spoken. There is a fourth course which you may take, and by which you may add to religious animosities the danger of settling a question of pecuniary interest to the inhabitants of a country belonging to two professions of faith, by which 3 ou leave nothing settled; by which you throw out tithes to be scrambled for ; by which you establish nothing with respect to a sur plus ; by whicl• you lay down no principle of appropriation, but by which you content yourself with declaring it to be a permanent settlement of the question, to assert an unprofitable right to apply an imaginary surplus to unexplained purposes.—(Loud and long continued cheers from the. Ministerial Benches.) And you may do more (if the wit of man could devise an act of greater confu sion.) You may, I say, do more, and by your arguments support the third course, which tends to destroy the Protestant Establish ment in Ireland, but afterwards shrink from acting on your own principles, and forgetting your arguments, tell us that you took up a position which, notwithstanding those arguments which you used to sustain it, you find to be perfectly untenable.—(Long-con tinued cheering.) These are, indeed, new elements in legis lation. It is bad enough already ; but to tell the people of Ire land " I am not only not determined as to the amount of the excess of the revenues of the Irish Church Establishment, but I will not indicate the rate at which reduction is to be effected—l will leave that dependent on the will, on the views, on the discre tion of judgment of any man who may hereafter have the power of determining the question—l will judge as to the amount of a surplus by a certain definite standard, namely by saying, if Pro testantism increases, than you shall have more—and if Protestantism diminishes, then you shall receive less ; thereby giving to you, the Roman Catholics of that country, a direct interest in preventing the increase of that sect which it ie asserted exercises a tyranny over you. We admit that you, the Roman Catholics, have been wronged ; but we permit that you should be bound by those wrongs to prevent the increase of that party by whose increase your interest in those ecclesiastical funds will be infringed upon :" to assert this is, I say, Sir, to assert an unjust and monstrous proposition.—( Loud and vehement cheers from the Ministerial side.) Sir, as I said before, Ireland is convulsed : There—. 4 Hot, cold, molt, and dry Contend for mastery ; But you threw chaos in." (Continued cheering.) Yes, you who professed yourselves un able to determine this question until you obtained further information upon it ; you who wanted t.o ascertain the bearings of the Church on the religious and moral welfare of the people. But you will not wait until the repo' tof our own Com mission even is completed, or until you can arrange the principles of your own enactments. You thought it convenient to oppose the first measure introduced by Government, and in order to advance your abstract theory. But this resolution is full of practical details, and in its results will reach the remotest parish in Ireland. You chose to submit to those, and I appeal in proof of the assertion to the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman which you have just heard, to those who wish for she destruction of the establishment. Sir, lam prepared to adopt one of the plans to which I have referred. lam prepared to assert the right of the existing law. All I ask is to be permitted calmly to state to the House the grounds on which I come to this decision. Sir, there are other parties equally anxious for the result of our debate ; and who look with equal eagerness for our decision as the Catholics—l mean the Protestants of Ireland. I do not assert that if you chose to come to the resolution and decide in opposition to what I conceive to be the public in terests—if you wish to violate what is established by long prescrip tion—and if you desire to interfere with established law, I do not Mean t.o deny the absolute and abstract right of the Lcgi3latnre to act upon its views. But I assert that you ought to be convinced by argument, efore you come to that conclusion. There are the great measures affecting the condition of the Protestants of Ireland, and of the Catholics also.—(Hear, hear.) There was first the measure of the Union, differing from a law in this respect, that it carried with it the force of a national com pact, and contained within the conditions on which a Legislature resigned its rights. The Catholics were not adverse to it.—(Cries of "Oh ! Oh !" from the Irish Members.) The Protestants were not opposed to it, and in the compact it was expressly pro vided that the rights and privileges of the United Chambers of England and Ireland should continue the same. The Hon. Mem ber for St. Albans attempted to shew by resolutions, and extract from the speeches of Mr. Pitt, that some right was reserved to the Church in the Act of Union with respect to civil disabilities ; but I contend that there was no right reserved to deal with the property of the Church. The Protestant reads these words in the Act of Union, and if their meaning is to be determined by a plain reference to the ordinary sense of these words, can there be a doubt what their intent is 1 The Act provides, " that the maintenance and preservation of the Established Church, as the United Church of England and Ireland, shall be deemed, and taken to be an essential and fundamontal part of the Union. There is a previous stipu lation that the doctrine, discipline, and government of that Church shall be maintained.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Parliament did not let it rest there—it stipulated as a part of the compact that the maintenaece and preservation of that Church should be an essential and fundamental part of the Union. In the year 1829, the Roman Catholic disabilities were removed, and although I might say that that Act has not the force of such a compact as the Act of Union, yet I should say that it is irrevocable, and only to be revoked by some important and eventful circumstance. I con sider it irrevocable as regards the liberties of the Roman Catholics, and it ought to be irrevocable as regards the assurances given to the Government at that period.—( Cheers from the Ministerial side.) By that Act, the Government was led to believe that there would be entertained no intention to subvert the present Church, as established by law, within this realm.— (Cheers.) They had been led to believe that no privileges that Act conferred would be exercised to disturb or weaken the Protes tant religion, or Protestant Government, as by law established, within the realm. They had been told that the removal of the Civil Disabilities of the Roman Catholics would give new security to the Church of Ireland. They had been told that their removal would redress the injustice of which the Hon. and Learned Member complained; but they were not aware that within five years from the passing of that Act the power which it had con ferred would be exercised to subvert that Church Establishment— (Tremendous and reiterated cheers from the Ministerialists)— so far at least as the property of the Church was concerned, and they were not aware that by consenting to the removal of those disabilities they would have been called on to remove the Church which had conceded these privileges. You passed another Act only two years since for the Reform of the Church of Ireland—and you cut off no less than 10 of the Bishops of that Church. You determined, and in my opinion wisely, to review the state of the Church of Ireland. You said, in my opinion wisely, that ecclesiastical sinecures shall follow the same course that has been taken by those of a civil na ture —a power was indeed taken by one clause of the original Bill by which that property of the Church having no interest with the other was to be applied to secular purposes ; but by the subsequent abandonment of that particular clause, you said you would held ecclesiastical property for ecclesiastical purposes.—( Great cheer ing.) Two years only have passed since that time, and notwith standing the Act of Union—notwithstanding the Act by which ten bishoprics were abolished—two years only have elapsed when the Hon. Member for Dublin comes forward and tells you you must issue a new proclamation for Ireland, and establish a new system of Govern ment for that country.—(Cheers, and loud cries of .‘ No, no.") The Hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Alban's tells you, that you having done away with some of the abuses of the Church ; you have dealt with Church property, and set a precedent for the pre sent proposition. The Hon. Member for St . Alban's, notwithstanding the caution of the Noble Lord, had plunged deep and at once into the bog, and attempted to cross it, and because that I, being warned by the example of the Hon. Gentleman, am determined to avoid that fate—l confess I saw with considerable pain the Hon. Mem ber floundering in the middle of the bog—there he stuck ; and he had not passed beyond that point, so long as I heard him. — (Cheers.) The reason no doubt was, that he was entangled with the weight of his own arguments.—(Cheers.) If Hon. Gentle men would prepare themselves with all the knowledge collected from the time of Noah down to his own, lie must expect to be left deep in the Serbonian Bog.—( Great cheering. ) What has been the whole course of the law? What was the prin ciple in respect to first fruits, and the Curate Act, except that for the benefit of the Church you had a right to redress individual abuses ?.e-( Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing can justify the appro priation of Church property to any other than to eccle siastical purposes, and I shall not discuss any other ap appropriation of Church property.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) Why should I be called upon to discuss any contingency, when I am only desirous of touching upon the practical question ? I desire to avoid all superfluous discussion, and therefore I refuse to discuss hypothetical questions. The Noble Lord said the surplus was 791,0001., but I doubt if it amounts to 450,000/.—(Hear, hear. ) Now that is a great difference, and would it not be premature to discuss the application of a surplus, the amount of which was not known. At one time the amount was stated to be 800,000/. It was not 791,000/., it is not more than 450,0001.—(Cheers.) I ask the House whether they will come to a resolution pledging to appropriate this sum ?—( Great Cheering.) I ask the Noble Lord again that question ?—( Hear,) I ask him whether he has made any estimate for the demands for national education ? I ask the House whether it is right to form an opinion respecting the ap plication of a surplus without some estimate? I wish the Noble Lord would answer this question. The Noble Lord assumes the revenue of the Irish Church to be 791,0001., and he proposes to apply the surplus to purposes of education. I ask again what is the estimate for the demand of education? Does any man believe that 100,000/. will be required for this purpose? I will give '200,000/. to be so applied-200,000 1 . a year. I entreat the House, if they are anxious in the cause of education, before they determine to overload education with superfluous wealth, to require some esti mate as to the application of this money. But , supp osin g this de mand to be 200,0001., which is the most that by possibility can be applied to education, still it will leave the Chui oh of Ireland in possession of 591,0001. The resolution itself, allowing 200,000/. for the purposes of education, does not consider the remaining 591,000/. too large an endowment for the Church. — (G reat cheering.) I assert that the Irish Church have not more than 450,000/, I went an answer to thiS argument.—(('beers.) There is this hu e, te•nt deference between us. I have shown that even if the Noble Lord (Russell) is correct in his statement, and if 200,0001. is required for education, and the resolution is limited to this, still it will leave the Irish Church in possession of the surplus.— ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") I have shewn that it will leave the Irish Church in possession of 591,0001., but I assert that the Church has not at the present moment more than 450,0001. — (Great cheering.) Upon what principle could the House legislate respecting an appropriation?—(Great cheering.) I do not ask you to decide the question to-night. I only ask you not to allow the Noble Lord to go into Committee for the purpose of involving ourselves in these errors.—(Cheers.) This is a matter of too much importance to be trifled with.—( Hear.) Have we not a right to insist upon the Noble Lord ( Russell) produ cing some practical plan if it were only to prevent extravagant hopes and discontent? This resolution will not give satisfaction to the people of this country, to the people of Ireland, to the Protes tents of Ireland, aye or to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, if you undertake in this stage of the business, without waiting for the re part, to which Ido not attach much value—if you undertake to pledge the House to a resolution which is - unnecessary for the purpose of effecting its object. You say—and you say with truth— that the Irish Church has not hitherto succeeded in attaining the great object for which it was instituted. I wish to discuss that point. I know there can be. no advantage in concealing what constitutes the real stress of the argument opposed to me. Yoa say the Irish Protestant Establishment has failed in obtaining the object for which it was in stituted, that there are not more than a million of Protestants, that there had been no proof of rapid conversions, that the Roman Catholics, in point of number, still maintain their ascen dancy ; and that as the Protestant Establishment has failed in attaining its object, that you are at liberty to appropriate its reve nues to secular purposes.—(Hear, hear.) Now I say there have been causes in operation which have prevented the growth and extension of Protestantism, but which at this moment have ceased to exist.—(Hear, hear.) If that is the case, if those causes are no longer in operation, then, I say, you are not justified in arguing on the existence of that which is past, and in appropriating a surplus which might not be ne cessary if the past were to endure ; but because the past is not to endure, therefore it is necessary, for the spiritual wants of the people, that no such appropriation should take place. In the first place, you have removed the civil disabilities—you have put the Protestant and Catholic on a footing of equality. Then the main argument you have against the existence of thq,se civil disabilities was this—that while those civil disabilities continue, a pre judice was sure always to be entertained against the Protestant religion—that there was an impediment of pride which you could not overcome ; but that is altogether removed, the impediment is gone, there can be no obstacle of pride to the Pr. etestant, there is perfect equality. You state that there were abuses in the Church— that there was an inequality in the distribution of its revenues—l say those abuses have ceased to exist, and that if they continue, shall cease to exist. The time is come when these abuses must be removed. The time is come when Parliament must interfere. Another case is the surplus wealth of the Clergy of the south of Ire land—you have taken effectual measures to remove that. The wealth of the Clergy of the south of - Ireland ! Talk of the trap pings of luxury and the surplus wealth of those who have been robbed of their incomes for the last four years ! It is possible in the inscrutable ways of Providence, the sufferings they have undergone, and the patience with which they have borne them--it is possible the extremity of their sufferings, and the patience with which they have endured, may conciliate parties towards them, aead make their efforts in the cause of religion more effectual.—(CEeers. ) If the causes which have prevented, in some respects, Protestantism, have been removed, what right have you to depend upon the assumption of circumstances? You are not now, going to determine whether you shall divide among the Church of Ireland a sum of 400,000/. or 500,0001., but whether you shall apply it to other purposes. You eave now 1,100 churches in Ireland—is it the intention of the Noble Lord to put that down? What do you mean to do with the existing state of things—do you mean to encou rage the Protestant landlord to reside upon his prop erty, and do you mean to tell him the first things that will strike his eye will be the dilapidated state of the Church which now exists ?—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I call the attention of the Honourable Mem ber for Weymouth to this part of the ca se. I call his attention to the last report of the Commissioners a eting under the Church Temporalities Bill passed by the late Gem Trnment. I en treat hisitttention, and that of every man who wishes well to the Church to this.—( Cries of " Oh.) Yes, yes, those. who made these exclamations know that there are many who are dissatisfied with the progress of' this night's debate.--(Hear, hear, hear. ) I understand that exclamation perfectly well—l know, I repeat, that many are dissatisfied with the progress which this debate has already made.—( Cheers renewed.) There are many who have not their minds made up, and who, if the debate mew terminated, would not be decided on the principle of the resolution.—( Here some Hon. Gentleman exclaimed—Oh !) lam not, sa dd the Right Hon. Baronet, addressing rayeelf to you, Sir—(Lous; cheers) — I have no hope of your conforming in consequence of any rea soning you may hear. Ido not address myself t o one who has taken so prominent and conspicuous a part as you—but to those who are somewhat less determined as to the course they may pursue.—(Cheers.) I shall now refer to the report made under the late Administration to which I was alluding. The first name on this report was the Archbishop of Dublin. It stated that the Church Commissioners had the satisfaction to report that applications were forced upon them for aid to build additional churches, as the accommodation in the parishes was insufficient for the congregations of persons belonging to the Established Church, and that while the Commissioners were unable to do sr.); the parties expressed their willingness to contribute, some one-fifth, some one half, and others three-fourths of the expense toward: building the churches. The Commissioners expressed their regret that as they had no superfluous funds, there was no prospect of their applica tion being favourably entertained. J now inter ad to address myself to the argument of the Hon. Member for Weyn eoutl_,_i who was de termined to support the Protestant establishment.. :He thinks that the surplus revenues of the church ought to be available to pur poses of education. I, on the contrary, think t ant there exists a necessity now for appropriating these revenu-s to the exietinz.- spi ritual wants of the people—(Hear, hear, hear. ) That Honour able Gentleman prsposed to send to Ireland a number of Pro testant clergymen whose zeal would supply f to de Sciences now complained of by example of industry and piety, ar el diffuse feelings of confidence and religion through the country. I differ with him as to the policy of such a project, and if I succeed i convincing him that it would not be successful, I hope he will c o nform to my opi nions. The Noble Lord, as I do, condemned fa e interference of intemperate zeal in the furtherance of religion. ' The precepts of a pious clergyman would surely be increased in efficiency by the example of his domestic virtues. It is much Is e,ter to allot to a clergyman sufficient to maintain himself and hi s family, that he may, by the exhibition of domestic peace and ha ppiness, make a practical impression on his flock, than to trust to • e .xtraord i he n narly vir tue or zeal to produce that effect .— ( Hear, hea x. ), W look to the deficient system of education in Irela ad--to the means possessed by the clergy of influencing the h ambler classes, I deprecate the practice of encouraging extra, irdinary zeal, and of leaving the clergyman in poverty in the mi. Ist of his flock. I will ask the Hon. Members opposite, when they reflect on the edu cation and acquirements which are required in a clergyman, and on the general absence of all society in Ireland swhich an educated man is accustomed to, what sum they conside r necessary for the maintenance of a clergyman and his family ? There are 1,400 clergymen in Ireland. Would the Hon. Gen II eman opposite re move 200 or 300 from that number ? There c sere 1,400 clergy men and 600 curates ; and after making what di cluction from that number the Hon. Gentleman may think necessary, what income would they allot a clergyman ? But if they will . allow that that in come should amount te 3001., it is not too much to ask that the whole of the rish Church revenues shall be devoted to ecel esiastical purposes. I cannot pass by the argument of the Hon. Mere per for Cambridge —it seems to have made a great impression on 'd ie House.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman's argum. .t was this—that by the ordinary endowment of the Irish Church, 'there was this pecu niary charge on account of religion, that then e was no injury done in applying the revenues of the Church to tt se purposes of educa tion. After ten days debate—after every one : who had spoken had had maintained the endowments of the Chur eh to be serviceable to secular purposes, he comes down and tells us he will solve all this. I will prove the education to be for an seclesiastical purpose. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) I hold in my hand a report on the principle of education, drawn up by tl u Hon. Gentleman opposite. It was made so late as the year It 3: 18, and abounds in twenty-two or twenty-three resolutions. It refers to the Act of Henry Bth. There is a specific reference to its at Act, but not one word is said of education being a pecuniary cbas •ge on the Church. The 'Right How- Gentleman did not then . advocate gratuitous education. You are going to decide on this susl jest. I ask you to pease before giving your decision. I utterly deny that the application of 120,0001. to the purposes of education wool. Ido good. lam fearful it would do more harm than good. '!'her, ei .s, as I before stated, in this report a reference to the Act of HenryVlll., it is, as I believe, the plan as adopted by the Noble 1,( a d ; but there is not one syllable about education being chargeable ( a t the Church. One of the resolutions continued, that it is the opi eiion of this Com mittee that Parliamentary aid should be restri tted to the following uses in the relief of parishes, and in the ei 'ecting of parochial schools, but with this proviso, that such aid was : not to exceed two thirds of the sum required.--( Hear. ) The s mbject was not to save pecuniary charge ; it was to invite lo cal assistance ; this was, in his opinion, a bad principle to apply r this local relief ; you do more harm than good in relieving the resident gen tlemen of that exertion, which was their duty alike with them interest to extend in cases of local demar s. Observe what the object of the resolution is. It is confine; 1:to the purposes of education. 1 assert, as boldly as the Right He es. Gentleman, that the object of the Act of Henry VIII. was to esta' plist i and confirm the power of the Established Church, and I maintai sa the inference draws by him as to right is directly at variance with t facts • The object of the Act of Henry VIII. was to confirm the pc ewer o f the Protestant religion by supporting the rights of the Protest an t Ch urch. The Act recites that a knowledge of divine truths was essential to education. The Act passed after the annihilation of the power of the Pope, so far as that could be effected by law in Ca nporal matters—many years after the statutes of premunire , aka • Henry had been de clared head of the Church, after he hari be en declared to possess the full right to the temporal possessiosee eE the Church ; and the first provision in the Act was one requiring • the Clergyman to teach or cause to be taught a school in vilest h the principles of the Establishment would be inculcated, -by placing education under the controul of the Clergyman a I assert that the object of the Act, that the intend( et of - the Statute of Henry the Bth, was not pecuniary cont tit iution but superinten dance. I should like to argue this quest Ws : with the Hon. Gen tleman. He has observed that the Act required not superinten tendance, but contribution. I maintain the contrary. The Hon. Gentleman contends for the former view of the cane, and he there fore justifies the appropriation of Church ire v enues to the purposes of education. The Act requires a payrr, ant by the clergyman, of 4s. a year towards keeping a school. Is, th e i r a uy analogy between the clergyman to observe the obligatioi is of s . Ile statute and the principle laid down by . the Righ t H on , 'aurable Gentle man, that we had a right to semi e on tie? revenues of the Church ?—( Hear, hear.) If there 'es. ' -no analogy' falls to the ground. The Right Ho s .l. Ge ntleman 'ay endeavour amissio ners bears to show that the report of the Cor m his argument hi In out in his view—a Commission not appointe'd b and which con sists of Mr. F. Lewis, of Mr. Leslie, of !Jr. IB lake, a Roman Catholic, and of Mr. Grant. All the (sxtrants vtlai ch the Right Hon. Gen tleman read to the House, tend no t in cut ifirmation of his opin.'ons. but to establish the principles lair downs in the Act of Henry Oc . Eighth. T hese Commissioners avow plainly, that the Act of Henry the Eighth was not a provi sic in for a pecuniary con tribution, but a superintendence—( L At id and cox tinned cheer ing)—and that it did impose the latter e.utv.—( Rene wed cheers.) This Act, after reciting among other th issgs the impor fence of good instruction in the principles of religion, proceeds after an enactment for the suppression of the Irish lan !, and enforoing the teach- Mg of the English, to direct that the Clergyman shall keep, or cause to be kept within the posh' Is in which h e shall possess any benefice or other Church pref trment, a school for the education of the people, and shall trite care. that the same stipend be paid to the teacher to i s ace es t )coed to be paid in such place.—Hear.) Nor it is .dear from this that it was the duty of the clergyman to adv what then became of the arguing - t he Right lion. Gent., that the Act of Henry VIII. authorised th 'e appropriation of the eccle siastical revenues to genersa Al•tneoig. nstruct. Vp te the education o f the p oor—. uncsmaected with the Church.—.(Cheeks.) That argument is utterly without founda tion, and so tar from shooing that this Act authorised the appro priation of Church revenues, the object was to connect education with the superintendence of the Church. I beg to refer the Right Hon. Gentleman to the Act which was introduced by myself a few' years since, for the regulation of Diocesan Schools, whiele recognised this very principle, and which enabled the Lord-Lieutenant to establish schools in every Diocese ; but had I brought in a Bill to tax the Clergynien for the support of these Diocesan schools, with what a buret of laughter would not such a proposition have been received by. the other side of the House, and particularly by the Hon. ;Member, for Middlesex, if I had attempted to show that there was any connec tion between the avowed objects of the Act of Henry the Eighth, and the appropriation of a pittance of the ecclesiastical- re venues to the support of these schools. With respect -to the appropriation of the surplus revenue, I believe that thhre could not be a more improper mode of disposing of it.—(Hear.) I bring you high authority ; the Commissioners' report showed that there was not a country in which there existed greater means of education than there did in Ireland. The Commissioners re commended that the schools should he founded upon the system of day schools, with the admission of some free scholars ; but the proposition now before you goes directly in the contrary direction ; it says that you should make gratuitous education the principle, while payment should be the exception.—(Cries of No.) You do not—that is what I complain of. You do not give any estimate of the sum you expect as a surplus. I charge you with making a mis take of 250,0001., with which you deceive the country. I charge you with pressing on the question—with making a surplus appear when you have no information on the subject, and even if you sanc tion the principle, to which I will never consent : but even if vou sanction that principle, sanction it without due consideration, you if the Noble Lord carries his motion, he will in the Commit-tee move a certain resolution—the Noble Lord is not very dear as to the principle by which he is actuated. On the Friday, the Noble Lord announced that the surplus was to be appropriated to the mo ral and religious instruction of the people, without any distinction. I say most emphatically that that implied the principle of the en dowment of the Catholic Church.—(Great cheering, and cries of —No, no.) Then why did the Noble Lord alter his resolution to the general system of education ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Of course I cannot dive into the recesses of the Noble Lord's mind, but all his arguments went to shew that the Church only made Roman Catholics. If this establishment be the nuisance you have described it, if the Church is a Church forced upon them, and eonai dered by the people as a badge of conquest, how can you deceive your selves by supposing that you will reconcile the people of Ireland by this resolution? Why, when they come to read your speeches end your acquirements, they will laugh at your resolution — (ch eery from the Opposition)—l say they will laugh at your resolution when they find you talk of it as the settlement of the question.— (Cheers from the Ministerial side.) The Member for Devon shire, in introducing this resolution, made use of these words t " I am one of those who are anxious to maintain religion and pro mote good order, but as the friend of the United Kingdom, I call upon you to observe whether the Church can make the same de fence, and say it has maintained religion and promoted good order." But that Church is to be maintained !---(Hear, hear.) I thought you were going to curtail certain.' establishments. Like the Catholic Bill, which began with " whereas the removal of civil disabilities will tend to promote the prosperity of the Church"—this measure is to commence with:" whereas the curtail ment of the Church will tend to promote the prosperity of the Church."—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Member for St. Albans said taking America, France, or Scotland, it was found in every instance the remuneration of the Clergy was always in proportion to the service performed, except in Ireland. The Hon. Member for Halifax (C. Wood) asked " where was there to be found in any country a system of Church Establishment where a rich Church with a small congregation was maintained at the expense of an overwhelming majority belonging to another Church, whose feelings were insulted, and whose property was taxed for the maintenance of one Church Establishment to which they did not belong, and for the support of their own." The Hon. Member for Shaftesbury (Mr. Poulter) made this observation, " that no length of time nor lapse of ages would induce him to concur in a great national grievance." I ask those who heard those expressions, who heard the arguments and the resolution—l ask them whether they imply the same? It is most important that a final settlement should be made when you are going to impose this additional charge upon the landlords of Ireland, to be received from the RoMan Catholic tenants. Ido not believe that it is necessary to open the eyes of the people to the fallacy attempted to be made. They know well that the arguments of Hon. Gentle men on the other side do not correspond with their sentiments. — Would this resolution tend to the final settlement of the question, or to the peace and tranquillity of Ireland?—(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Why, the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin calls it the first instalment.—( Great cheering.) I have been taunted with the course I have pihrsued—l have been taunted with inconsistency—but I can tell lion. Gentlemen that there is a course still more fatal—it is that of being in the rear of one's own argum ents—(Loud cheers) —to shoot an arrow and search for it in the place where it lies. There may be an excuse for being in the rear. That doctrine, that public men are always to anticipate public opi nion—that they are always to be looking out for the first indication of public opinion, and provide against the event that might happen —that doeleine, I have no doubt, is very popelar ; but siepenel upon it, if any public man takes that course, he will unsettle the minds of the people of this country. But you do take up positions which in your hearts you feel are wrong. I see in the smile of the Honourable Member for Middlesex, he is much too shrewd to be united by this resolution,—( Hear, hear, and laughter. ) He may vote for the resolution, knowing the principle of it, but he will find out with me, that it is a mere pretence of applying the surplus revenue to education, and then he will bring forward his resolution of 1824, and will argue where is the use of not enforcing it? lam not looking behind now. lam now looking into the womb of futurity, and I feel as certain of what it wiii produce as lam of what the facts are. I feel as certain as lamof my own existence, that the Hon. Member for Middlesex is too manly to be satisfied with the principle involved in this resolution, if it be meant to be a final settlement of the question. And it is because I know this, because I know that you yourselves have rendered untenable the position which you wish to take in common with you—it is for that reason, as well as for others, for that main andpredominant reason, I will not consent to appropriate this property to purposes other than Ecclesiastical connected with the Protestant Esta blishment.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But I know also that this is a delusive resolution, that sends not peace, but the sword— (Hear) --that it will excite false hopes which you will shrink from disappointing ; it is because I feel that, with the force of the other arguments against it, that I oppose this resolution. I give the Noble Lord fair flotilla of the course I intend to pursue. I mean to oppose his motion for a committee ; and should he succeed in getting a Committee, I mean to oppose the Noble Lord's resolution, and lastly, it is my intention to oppose with all my strength the communication of his resolution to the Crown— (cheers from the Ministerial side)--because it is unprecedented and novel, and the course it proposes unnecessary for the purposes it professes to accomplish. The intention of it was to indicate evidently to the country that they would pass by the House of Lords. If that was the course meant to be adopted, it should have been taken honestly, but it was a fitting course for such a resolution. Why not embody the resolution in an address, and send it to the House of Lords? Had they doubts as to this their mature deliberate plan, which they hesitated to send to the other branch of Legislature ? They must have considered the course worthy of the resolution—(cheers)—when they seek such an un fair and dishonest pretence for passing by the House of Lords. The King will relinquish certain rights by the passing of this Bill, and in doing so he must signify his assent to that measure by that modest kind of intimation wnich his Ministers always com municate. Was the course then respectful to his Majesty, or fair or honest to the country? I trust that the House will never con sent to adopt that principle, but if it should, by whom shall the Re solution be presented ? If the Hon. Member for Middlesex will allow me I will suggest three Hon. Members, the Noble Lord who has proposed the Resolution, the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and the lion. Member for Dublin. Will the Noble Lord thank me for the felicity of the suggestion, an Englishman, an Irishman, and a Scotchman.--(Cheers.) It is not for me to anticipate what the answer will be ; if it were possible to suggest it I think the Noble Lord would spare me the pain and necessity of stating it. Now with respect to the Noble Lord, and his qualifications to present the Address, he advised the Commission of last year, but was not pre pared to legislate ; he demanded further time for consideration ; he adverted to theappropriation, but was not willing to adopt the prin ciples without further inquiry. The Noble Lord who was at that time a Minister of the Crown ought not to be the party to approach the Crown. Well then, the lion. Member for Dublin is to be a party to the communication—he is to be a party to the appropriation of the revenues of the Church, the security of whick was granted by the Act of Union. Who advised the Crown to use these expressions with respect to the Act of Union? I have seen with feelings of concern and regret that attempts have been made in Ire land to excite the people of that country to demand the repeal of the Legislative Union, that bond of our national strength, which I am determined, under the blessing of Divine Providence, to main tain inviolate by all the means in my power.—( Cheers.) Is it fair in so unusual and unprecedented a in inner to present such an ad dress to the Crown? I will candidly tell the House, that I shall think it my duty to give to the Crown the advice to dismiss that address in its unformed and immature shape.—(Hear, hear.) But I hope that the House will pause before admitting such a proposi tion. It has the power to rejec t it, and I trust that it will. I tell you before hand that I will not act upon your proposition.—(Hear. ) I will not be a party to the act of appropriating the property of the Irish Church to any but its legitimate purposes.—( Hear, hear. ) -The Hon. Gentlemen opposite differ from me on thie question, but the Noble Lord prefaced his proposition in such a meaner that we can differ on some points while we agree upon others. I am ready to put the question on any footing which may suit the House. lam ready to postpone the question till after Easter. —(No, no.) But I cannot think that the House will proceed to a decision without full information on the subject, and until they have before them the report of the Church Commission. It behoves them in a matter in which so large an amount is involved, and in which matters of such immense importance are involved, not to come to a hasty decision.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If there was a difference of opinion on a r evenue of 250,0001., it is but jus tice to the Church from which it emanates, to ascertain whe ther these revenues you are about to appropriate according to some 540,000!., -according to others, 791,000/. should be disposed of in the manner which the Noble Lord proposes. By moving one re solution in a Committee, you may have this point satisfactorily as certained; and I do, therefore, ask you to relieve the Noble Lord and myself from a great practical evil. The Noble Lord did net give this notice himself—it was given by an Honourable Gentleman who showed more courage than discretion, and who pressed the Noble Lord into a position that he was compelled to give way. My opinion is that the Noble Lord will see the policy, and that he will withdraw this most imperfect motion, for which he shall have my full permission, and which is likely to embarrass him so much. Let the House then concur in relieving the Noble Lord from this position, and let it not debar him from that happiness he was about to anticipate. He perfectly coincided with an expression delivered by the Ho nourable Member for Weymouth, that where there are so many differences of opinion they ought to be inquired into.—(Hear, hear.) Ido ask you, then, to desist until the report be laid on the table—wait until the result of your own commissioe be known. If you take my advice you will relinquish this attempt for the present, and not defeat the object of your wishes by what might be a hasty decision, nor obstruct its final settlement by this untoward proposition. You may perhaps succeed in it, awl yet pray succeed effectually to the destruction of the Protestant Church. it au may indeed succeed in showing your power here—if you suc ceed, don't act rashly—don't glory in your triumph. Let ins as sume the functions of an office discharged in former times by a. slave, but which may be assumed in the present crisis by a freeman without any derogation to his station. You boast of your superior strength—you are prepared to control the Executive Government. Let me whisper into your ear, that though you arc triumphant here, you cannot fetter the views of the public. You cannot ex tend the excitement which exists within these walls out of them. Yes, in the performance of the functions whirls 1 voluntarily undertook I place before your eyes what may the consequences of your triumph. I call upon you to consider the variation in human affairs and the instability of human calculations. I tell you, you cannot control public opinion.—( Cheers.) We' may be weak here: but this I tell you, that the consequence of your triumph will be to show that there is us this eenntry ,79tY MO vts TOZ ji e)1 asw J. 1,1