The Sun. — London, England, 1852-02-17 00:00:00

In the present year not more than 30,000 men would he required, and the expenses altogether would be wider 200,000/. , b ut a larger sure wcu d be taken in order to meet contingeecies. Piects word be exempted where there was a large police force drilled and armed, &ad where volunteer corps had been formed.—(Hear; hear.) In answer to Mr. REYNOLDS, _ Lord J. RUSSELL sa id h e mean t to b r i ng i n one Bill for England and Wales; another Bill would be required for Scotland. He did not mean to raise a local militie iu Ireland. Mr. REYNOLDS did no t k now w h e th e r the exemp tion of Ireland was intended as a boon or a compliment. -- (Laughter.) He could not certainly accept it as a Compliment; and certainly if there were need of a local Militia in England, there was still greater need in Ire land, where the coasts were more exposed to danger. In answer to a question from Sir J. PAKINGTON, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the militia of each county would not be moved from its own county ex cept by its own consent, or in case of a foreign invasion. Mr. HUME had heard the statement of the Noble Lord with great regret. lie saw no reason for any augmentation of the military force, and if there was to be any increase, he thought it would be more advantageous to increase the regular army.—(Hear.) lie thought it would bo morally nod physically injurious to the people, dragging them from their home and em ployment and engendering in them military habits and ideas. The idea was that we were to have a militia in order that the regular troops might be ready to be sent out of the country. But where were they to be sent to? Did any one fancy that a British soldier would ever again be seen on the continent as an aggressor. Certainly not, and he thought that this was ths first step of a return to that system which had plunged the country into an enormous deb.. He should certainly oppose the proposition to every extent in his power, and he would give them notice that at a future stage he should move that every man called out for the militia should ever after be entitled to the suffrage. Colonel THOMPSON could not help thinking that the country would be too glad to see the Government doing anything to be ready, not for what sensible and intelligent men should do, but for the attempts of hot beaded and rash men. He saw by the public journals that the general officers of the French army had re ceived orders to hold themselves, both materiel and per sonnel, ready by the 22d inst. He supposed the order had reference to the present Ruler of France declaring himself Emperor. He might call himself Emperor or Mamamouchi if he chose, but if ho was master of his trade he would go on until he was stopped; and seeing the hostile designs he was said to entertain against Belgium there was enough to couvince the country of the propriety of being prepared for any contingency. Co lonel SIBTHORP said that last year when everybody thought of nothing else but the Great Exhibition— (Laughter) —the Freneh Government and ours were " hail tallow well met," and French visitors to this country, whe ther military or civilian, were allowed to enter and inspect the dockyards, the Tower, and all the arsenals. Nothing was spoken of then but reform and retrenchment; now they were told it was necessary to be prepared for hostilities, and they were to have a force created which was to add to the influence of the Government and heavily increase the taxa tion or the country. From the low tone of voice in which the Noble Lord spoke he had found it impossible to learn the whole of the provisions of the plan, 'and certainly the Manner and tone in which it was brought forward threw great suspicion over the scheme. The old militia might be called out at a less expense, acd would constitute a more efficient force. Sir H. VERNEY bore testimony to the orderly character of disciplined bodies of men generally, and, as an instance, Me ntioned that he knew a regiment ich, at its own ex pense, supported a library of 6,000 or 7,000 _volumes. He could not, however, believe that a force could be made effi cient by a fortnight's or a month's training in the year. He could have wished the Noble Lord had taken the present occasion of considering the military force, so as to make it More attractive to the working classes. He should wish the militia to be made a connecting link between the work ing classes and the army, so as to recruit the latter from the Militia and the militia from the working classes. At all "eats, he believed it necessary to organize a local force, not f or aggression, but for defence, and nothing could be done in that respect more economically than by creating a local Militia. If the Government was remiss on that subject, and If any disaster happened to the country from such remiss ness, the Government would be handed down to posterity with execration. He (Sir H. V.), in conclusion, expressed ale belief that the people of England would not refuse the s e ,?; l3 euse, as an assurance for the maintenance of all prospe "sY--namely, the security of the country. al r. M. O'CONNELL hoped the Noble Lord would re consider the question of extending the measure to Ireland. 4.10 could not see why Ireland should be left unprotectedany More than England. In the county which he represented— /14Tel, peaceful county—the whole coast line from Bantry aY to the Shannon was pierced with harbours, wherein an e nemy might put without hindrance, seeing that there Were only the county constabulary force, and a few coast guard men, some 500 or 600 in number, to resist them. He asked, therefore, that justice should be done to Ireland, more ZP a e cially as the French had twice succeeded in landing in t country on former occasions. , Mr. COBDE said the Hon. Member (Sir H. Verney) . %ad asked whether the people of England would not pay an ineerance for the preservation of all they possessed? He Y r • Cobden) had no hesitation in saying that they would — it was neceseary. The question at issue, however, was not whether an insurance should be paid by the people of Eng • land, bu t whether they had not already paid one ; whether a mply were not insured enough ? It was like a man being 7uPly insured in the Phoenix having it proposed to him to Mstired? insure besides in the Royal Exchange. The question for the People of England to ask was, whether they were not amply He maintained they were. It was the custom to th e n or pretend to ignore the amount of money spent on "le sources of national defence in this country. The ' l l ee l leation was, whether, with the money that had ospent, ample provision had been made againstwas aggression ; whether, in short, a due use made o f th e f orces w hi c h t h e country possesse d ? Thi s brought him (Mr. Cobden) to the amount of the whole vote for the navy since the close of the war—a period of 37 .eare. How much did the House think it was? No less _Tan 250 millions of money. But as that period might be rected to as including too much time, he would take the H ow ten years —ten years being the average life of a ship. r il l did the account stand on this case? This country had of Pring . at time paid, for the wages of artificers in making and re ships of war for the use of the naval service. a sum mat ' 800,00 01.,• it had constructionaidll34ooooa tor the articles and and e.rials used in the and repair of such ships; , o.. it had paid 3,000,0001. more for repairs and improve- Zs in the several dockyards. What would a private ship yearuser say, if after laying out a sum of 23,000,000/. in ten a loud cry was raised at the end of that time that the sfleet was in a s t ate o f i ne fficiency—that there were no ships n.. 10 sue--and that the country should apply to a foreign extraneous service for its defence against possible in- Mau lit He (Mr. Cobden) maintained that England was whosecure as far as the cost went. But what was wile ° with the ships? He heard much talk of invasion; but mein were the fleets? One squadron was up to the present e a ' u nt e n the Tagus—he understood it was now ordered home. waLn Mediterranean, however, how many large vessels of thi n k t° say nothing of the smaller craft—did the House try? were sunning themselves 1,200 miles from this coon- He Would read the list. There were the Albion Guns. Guns. ...... .. 91 Bellerophon 78 on e u e e e T a 'gable 5O Phoenix -yen ..... gean ee it, u t la h l e i :t did not, as he said, include smaller vessels. Was inea s t e ar bre, the conduct of rational people to raise a cry of Whil e t r h i s, accompanied by a demand for a militia force, far tees elf' ships, the natural defence of the country, were so the from home, doing nothing? But to say nothing of th e e s alPa, the number of ships of war in commission, in suffi cient various naval ports and harbours of England, was suffi rto avert any liability to invasions, or at least to prevent rate from being frightened unnecessarily on that point,. re, 84 re were is Sheerness the London, 92 guns; the Water loo e h' 120 ; the Neptune, 120; the Rodney, 102 ; the Man ; the Blenheim, 98, and others. In Chatham Man there re were also several large ships. In Portsmouth there others, e r the Victory and the Excellent. In Devonport there were s ' in cluding the Impregnable; and in Milford Haven there were more. In fact, there were ten line-of battlebours ofsips and four frigates lying in the har boursEngland, rotting in their waters, doing. nothing. This steamers ab le , ~,,h ° , u u trY had paid for a large force of OcteasiOn rea t e sed r n s r " course, would be forthcoming when in the West Indies andller° were line.of-battle ships besides use a line of battle ship in the East Indies; though what atiiticaould be in Jamaica, or what use wag made of a line of b . Cobden) could not tell. e n e d ll e i e P in the East Indies, he (Mr. ,show that for many years a nea,d'of.he challenged any one to bvtle ship in either place Was ever called into reeuisition. b,eard of attacks on the pirates of the hey had of course, all a late aatstern seas, and Par persons alleged to bee occasion for the Influent had paid head-money en taghter of 5,000 s ingle line-of-battle ship employed against - 1 7 . 2a0t been a pirates but there the bloody work t a li — l, a " , To keep line-of-battle shi t tal' a te pirates, and all Os, theretreel done by e -ar bours of Jamaica, of Singapore, or liongieiTeinge,in coerely an idle show and a monstrous waste of money,-'fir untry a f ra id of any attack u p on her colonie s . T h e argument in not tof the p resent demand was t hat inva aie wit in sapper was imminent, because England was so near France; Whe reas the c o l on ies were 4, 000 m iles distant from a bucca neering ea • •Pedition If there were a n y dan g er, cense_ hntlY the fi rs t thing that should qe. be clone was to or d er e ; idle anduseless 'bare those large vessels now lying lf Nvhere they were The Noble Lord put him a_ po. Bitiea oi ant • to his speech at the opening of the agonism latter occasion that th e "•The Noble Lord said on time had taken great new spa Per press of this country that this person had Cliberties with the President of France ; but the news - PaPer wed in England himself, and knowing that licentious, he Irene , Press was free, and might therefore be lice the owed not take it for granted that the opinions of oirsPe.pers were the opinions of the people of • England. He n ee ; Cobden), however, felt bound to say that the move „t made 'on p ath ade by the Noble Lord that night—the proposition the 3' him, was ten times more menacing to France and to t he Person who governed it than all that had been said by thi s ne wsPapers, even though the Noble Lord did not on laecasion speak in the voice of the people of England. t e e Noble Lord • it was true, stated that the force in ques h, 0 would not be employed except in case of invasion. but ba s , e iginatin g an elastic force of 80,000 men, capable of neigeg expanded into 150,000, the Noble Lord did far more Pre eei t E be press, wh;ch he took upon himself to lecture, to cte e ' e the President and to imitate the French people.-- inf e rs hear.) But the Noble Lord, nevertheless, had not Gover n ment the House of anything to show that the French cli ns v e rn ment of the present day was not as peacefully in -. towards England tant as the Noble Leader of the Opposi had rated it to be in the other House of Parliament; nor h enr u e r e atone anything to remove from the public mind the peat fie ° 3 ;on made by the Queen's Speech as regarded such intentions on the part of France—an impression 'en had ratio prono dou btProp ea O they would go down when the Noble Lord's we e it r ) leil should be made public. The Noble Lord Prance and to show why there was more danger from Lord now than there was in l 84e, when the Noble wah ere p w rnPosed to call out the militia, but ultimately 1 .1 °151 e Lordlhat proposition. On that occasion (184 e) the the f act adduced as one reason for the course he proposed pe fteerti , t ha t the IC King of the French, during his long and and to : _ r e.ign, had nearly doubled the number of ships the se ' e e in the Fe s w as n ench navy. On the present occasion Such ws 0 attempt made by the Noble Lord to show that s aw ea the ease ,_ In the French ne • On the contrary, he (Mr. Cobden) ' e we(' to be printed_ On the at least, as were al several ships of the —at there was a talk of laying up te ° _,,uhl be taken for Milnavy Of course that statement _eine, and as certainly w the was worth ; but it was certainly ininsentation. Anothe r e Noble Lord had said nothing of . 14 IS 4 B Wan that r argument d b the Noble Lord lance then use y 00 on foot 2 1 00 , 00 of Na" THE SUN, tional Guards. That argument, however, was of no force now, as the National Guard was dissolved. 'therefore, on the Noble Lord's own showing, this country was mach less liable to moles ation at the present freemen; than it was in 184 S, when he relirepti•lted his owe proposition to tnibody the militia at that period. 11e ( Mr. Cobden) was, how• ever, afraid, from the observations of the Honourable fled Gallant Member for Bradford in respect to Belgium, that this country was on the eve of being dragged into a continental quarrel;—,Hear)—and that calling o ut the militia was preliminary t o sen di ng ou t t h e regu l ar force to fight on the Continent for foreign interests. After the lesson taught to England in the last war, however—after the trea• chary with which she had been repaid for the lavish expen diture of her blood and money upon foreign nations, he (Mr. Cobden) doubted very much whether the people of England would allow any Government whatever, Whig or Tory, to drag the country into another continental war. If they did, then they would richly deserve the catastrophe of national bankruptcy, which would be inevitable in respect of a people so impervious to sense and so forgetful of the lessons of ex - 1 perience. With regard to the proposition before the House, he (Mr. Cobden) had no he s itation in saying that calling out the militia would be highly unpopular with all classes, (spe cially with the poor, who could not afford to pay for substi tutes; and he was satisfied that the Noble Laid would see once again the same public hostility to the measure as he met with in respect to his measure of 18 ;8. A mere traction of the people was proposed to be taken from their homes and placed under martial law for ,no purposes of their own.— (Hear.) If 150,000 soldiers were wunted they should be paid for as such—paid liberally; but to call upon a poor man, who, perhaps, earned 4s per day, to come from his shop, and to leave that labour which barely sufficed for the support of his family, and to place himself under martial law for ls. or Is. 3d. per day, was, in his (Mr. Cobden's) opinion, to commit an act of the most flagrant injustice.— ( Hear.) The navy was the national guardian of England. The Noble Lord had no business to contemplate thepossi bility of invasion if the navy was properly kept up—an in- ' vasion either by a band of brigands or bfa regular army. A Swiss Baron had written about an invasion of England, 'it is true, with 150,000 men ; but that matter had been disposed of by the professional men of this kingdom, who proved that all the ships owned by France would not, suffice for the pur pose. Another plan had, however, been put forward by the Army and Nary Journal—namely, that France might land from 10,000 to 15,000 men on a given portion or portions of the coast, which force, though nut strong enough to occupy the country militarily, or effect any important strategical operations, might nevertheless cause irreparable injury. In this manner it was urged a buccaneering expedition might visit the Thames, and levy a Canton ransom on the me tropolis. This he (Mr. Cobden), however, • looked upon as a libel upon the French army.—(Laughter.) It would be an act of piracy at all events, unless a declaration of war was made. It was said that the French army was anxious to avenge Waterloo. Hanging 10,000 men, which, no doubt, would be the fate of such a body of invaders, would not, however, be a very satisfactory means or avenging Waterloo. It was also said, that such a force would burn the ships in the harbours of Englund. If they did, they would burn at the same time the ships of other na tions—America, Dutch, and others, in °the ports of this country also. That, however, would cause all these maritime state to coalesce, and the nation that performed such an act of piracy would be hunted, if not from the face of the earth, at least from the face of the ocean, by these ueited powers. All that he (Mr. Cobden) asked was, that the ships of war, which cost England nearly 8,000,000/. a-year, should be so disposed of as to satisfy the fears of the timid. As regarded the pre sumed intention of their nearest neighbour, England paid twice as much for her navy as France, anti three times as much as was paid by America, because she was au island and needed ships to defend her shores; but now, the Govern ment, notwithstanding the insular position of England, pro posed to call out the militia to protect the country against invasion. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord would not press his proposition to a division, but would postpone it so as to give time for the country to decide on the question. He (Mr. Cobden) had seen a panic manufactured in 1848, greater even than the present panic, and he had seen it defeated. The Noble Lord regretted the withdrawal of his Bill in 1848. Why did he regret it? The leading organ of public opinion at this moment said, that England was never safer than when France was under the constitu tional government of an Assembly, which she was at that period. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped the good sense of the people, therefore, would as effectually resist any attempt to manufacture a panic now as it did in 184 S. It was a cry got up by certain newspapers, which had nothing else to write about in the Parliamentary recess, and was not the feeling of the country. Viscount PALMERSTON and Mr. F. Manic rose at the same time; but the latter gave way to the cry of the House for the former. The Noble Lord said he concurred with his lion. and Gallant Friend on the same side of the House who had expressed his satisfaction that her Majesty's Government were doing something at last on the subject then under discussion. His (Viscount Palmerston's) satis faction was not, however, founded on any opinion which he entertained that there was immediate or pressing danger; or, in fact, any cause which had not existed at former moments. He trusted that the relations of England with that country from which danger was most apprehended to arise were as friendly as they could be, and that no question ee as likely to spring up which would expose this country to any such danger. But the Noble Lord at the head of the Go vernment knew perfectly well that he (Vicount Palmerston) had taken the liberty of impressing on him several times since the year 1846, upon general principles, that it was necessary for the present safety and lasting interests of this country that some such measures of precaution should be taken as those now proposed by the Noble Lord's Go vernment, and about to be undertaken. He (Viscount Pal merston) had repeatedly renewed his instances, as the Noble Lord would beat him witness; but difficulties had inter vened which prevented their being adopted. He was glad, however, that these difficulties had disappeared at last. and that her Majesty's Government were now about to provide in a more adequate manner for the defence of the country.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken said that England should not provoke a continental war, or mix herself in the quarrels of foreign nations; and, as a general principle, he (Viscount Palmerston) gave that pro position his fnllest approval. But, as the Noble Lord at the head of the Government said, England had engagements of long standing, which might involve her in such dispute, de spite even of her own inclination—political engagements which extended beyond the limits of her own shores.— ( Ilear, hear.) She had also commercial interests scattered widely over the whole globe. There was, in fact, no country iu the world where England had not subjects, property, or commerce.—(Hear, hear. And he (Viscount ) Palmerston) was bound to say that the questions of the slightest appearance were very often the most dangerous as between nations. This was proved in the administration of Sir Robert Peel when a question of that nature came to involve the honour and dignity of a neighbouring country.—(Hear.) Hon. Gentleman talked of the danger of a rupture with France alone, because of her fleet and army; but the House should bear in mind that France was not the only power in Europe which possessed a large fleet and a large army. And if this country was involved in a foreign war, there was no saying how widely the flame would spread, or how far those other countries would take advan tage of the position of England.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said that this country being insular, and possessing for that reason a fieetfor its defence, the natural defence of England was the navy. That very insular position, may, however, in some cases, be the source of danger for this country. Continental states • were accessible only by certain roads which were strongly fortified at the points of entrance by extensive fortresses. The shores of England, however, were open for the entire circumference of the island ; and upon such an immense extent of space it would be impossible to foresee where an invading force might land. Then the Channel was narrow; and, as Lord Howe said, " the sea was a wide place." Three days might bring a consider able force from distant places, and few be the wiser of it.—(Hear.) He (Viscount Palmerston) believed the British navy to be as efficient at this mo ment as at any former period of its history ; in deed, he believed it to be more efficient. There was a great amount of valuable stores in the arsenals of this country, and a great many ships in her dockyards ; but was that any reason that the people of England should not take all necessary .precaution to prevent an enemy from coming into their ports, and burning the one while they destroyed the others, before they could be m anned to offer effective resistance? ' lie (Viscount Palmerston) complained of the exaggeration of his lion. Friend in enu merating the ships in commission in England. The Ex cellent, quoted by his Hon. Friend, w as only for target practice, and the 'Victory was all but a tender —never sent to sea, and perhaps unfit for other service. But efficient as the navy undoubtedly was, it Would be madness to rely solely and entirely upon it as regarded the defence of this country from foreign invasion. It was impossible for any navy, however effective, to prevent the landing of a hostile force altogether, considering the short in terval which separated the shores of this country—he would say from France—while on the other and more dis tant points to which an expedition might be directed— Ireland for instance— it would be much more successful in landing, because those points were necessarily less guarded. Well, then, if it were necessary to have a land force under such circumstances, armed men to resist armed men—for as to fortifications it would be useless to think of fortifying any points except the arsenals and dockyards, there being no fortifications like brave men, such as would always he found, men with strong hearts and sinewy arms Englishmen— if, therefore, a large armed force was needed—he hoped it would not be so, but it always was less so in proportion as a nation was prepared for resistance, nothing Wing so te m p tin g as weakness and incapacity conjoined with great wealth ( Hear)—if it was necessary that this country should have a lik fo e rce capable of defending their homes and altars against an invading army, against the incalculable calamity which even a month's occupation of the country, or any large por tion of it, by an invading army would involve—something peac t e h ru e l , : t o: ce e proposed by the Noble Lord seemed to him (Viscount Palmerston) the only plan available for that T a t rl e nately did C u ll ot ea k r, hear.) It was mighty well for Honourable Gentlemen to talk of the hardships of taking men from their course war, or knew nheew donanotws know what with attention and eta ttt calamitiesee n r t c ie h or teaching g t h t t eh h we e h m i s t t o o r defend e foe of d theirformer f a w m a i r - s country ; but the people of England fortu- Y would not • hesitate a moment at adopting e l any corneae to avert it p u e li r g so h n t s who read their country than i:l the landing of Gentlemen who served abroad of er c e a ; lam an it d ies ev o e f n conception ot of them ; but he (Viscount calamity l a m m e i r t s y t o a n s ) possiblecoul d f h a i s h o m s t i i n l ed forcean g o rester n th the occupy the country, or any e satisfied that the shores of England sufficient to of he country e e n ltv , ho Vr iunl a gd s , " lint of force in time of large portion of it, for an lenth in a time of the regular army sufficient? not hah permitts, the feelings, the m t o and the fina m nc o have an a peace have —why (Hear.) which every country of magnitude and importance h a d al _ ready a force dormant in time of peace, and organized and The United ca lled on to learn the use of arm s to defend in s ip of which we co mp l a i ned that of being di sc i p lined in time of war.—d(hHear.) America did not feel the har and their country. He case of need their homes believed there was a Ger many did not feel the hardship, a there was 1,000,000 of militia Unitediu nd tne inrriissia Sates. Ger n izin the militia the same principle by partially le g of h. • larg e amount of dormant military force.re.o re-organizing had recog nisedeying a defence. These countries had followed our ex . aln . p militia, though we had discontinued the But certainly there was no country having such enormous militia of lateyears. wealth, and so many vast interests at s take, which possessed so little defence agaist invasion. What was wanted were men trained, disciplined, and organized in tim e of peace who were only to be assembled for a short tim e in each year to learn th e practice and movemen ts of the regu lar troops. Without thi s amount of discip an army.—( line, a body of alined men, however large, was a mob , not What the country required was to have a body who, of men, f on the breaking out of war, wou l d b e f oun d under arms ready to defend their country, A regular militia would supply that kind of force. They h a d had a militia for near l y l e two centuries, and be thought, therefore, there could be no difficulty in the way of organizing that force. lie confessed he did not quite understand the difference raised by the LeTphreef Noble e e L fo o r rd lo s c: i l d Noble Lord in reference to the regul ar and the local m ili t i a , and ord t . li the militiarzgaudlavrecmatieli(tliabywtahsefoNrmobelde by ballot or by substitute. The local militia did not allow LONDON, of substitutes except in certain exemptions, but required personal service. The old militia force was the old consti tational Three of the kingdom ; it was trained and officered, and required to do duty each year for twenty-eight days, and was prepared to join the regular army in the defence of the country should war take place. '1 he regular militia of Great Britain and Ireland was liable to serve in any part of the United Kingdom. Now he was really astonished that in any plan for the defence of the realm Ireland should be left entirely without protection. Local militia, as advocated by tho Noble Lord, would be entirely confined to Great Britain. Why was not Ireland provided for? Did Government doubt the loyalty of Ireland ?---(Hear.) He pledged his existence there would not be found a siPgle Irishman, if called out to serve, and who had taken the oath of loyalty to his Sovereign and his country, who would not lose his life in defence of both.—(Cheers.) For his own part, he had the greatest confidence in the Irish militia — they would to a man b 3 found true to their oath and their Sovereign—and as to their courage, that was sufficiently known.—(Loud cheers.) If the country was to have a militia be could not understand why so complicated au arrangement as that devised by the Noble Lord should be preferred. It seemed to him that a simple force, like the regular militia, might be raised at; less personal inconvenience. The regular militia permitted substitutes—the regular was available all over the United Kingdom, whereas the local militia would only be stationed in county by county, and they could not he called into action until too late to do essential service. He would, therefore, respectfully submit to her Majesty's Government the expediency of leaving :out the word " local" in their Bill. He would suggest they should simply leave out the word " local," and bring in a Bill to amend the Acts of 1802, which regulated the regular militia. There were many other things to be considered. The system of ballot might be improved—the infusion of a uumber of half-pay officers acquainted with the practical duties of the service would give an efficient tone to the service. The suggestions if neglected would give the local militia simply the character of an awkward squad. He did not approve of the plan of having men by detachments of ten from one place and twenty from another. They might depend upon it no real discipline could be given to a body of men unless trained by battalions—and unless they were practised in those con certed movements necessary to be taught, and useful in action against an enemy. He was exceedingly glad Govern ment had come forward with a measure for providing for the defence of the country by a force of this character. He was satisfied the militia afforded the best means by which danger could be averted, and the best force to have recourse to in case of invasion ; but he considered the measure before the House was susceptible of improvement, and that the regular militia ought to be the standard by which the pre sent measure should be regulated.—(Cheers.) Mr. F. DIAULE joined beadily in the expressions of applause with which the House had received the speech of the Noble Lord, and he rejoiced to hear his Noble Friend bear testimony to the necessity of the country being pre pared with a militia force for its defence. His Noble Friend ( - Lord Palmerston) thought the proposal of Lord J. Russell would be benefited by substituting a regular, instead of a local, militia. That subject, he could assure the Noble Lord, had undergone mature consideration at the hands of Government; and, for reason which were perfectly convinc ing, it appeared to Government to be the preferable course to confine the measure to a militia of a local character ra ther than to propose a permanent system of militia. The regular militia was composed principally of substitutes. Even in time of peace the very act of allowing individuals to serve by substitute created so much confusion, that should the service of the men be required abroad, it would be quite impossible to make them available. This course had, therefore, been abandonei. The system of regular militia which permitted substitutes would not work well, especially in time of war. In the present measure Government did not profess to go so far as the system of regular militia ; all they wished to do was to enable a force to be mustered which was easy of action whenever the necessity should arrive for having recourse to their service. The local force proposed to be established was, as he thought, the most preferable force. By the old system of the regular militia it would take many weeks before the ballot would be con cluded, and some months before the force could be made available. Government proposed by a local militia not to extend the system so far as under the old Militia Act. The expense and the inconvenience of ballot, and taking married men from their families, would thus be ren dered inconsiderable. One of the advantages of com bining men of twenty or twenty-three years of age was that you got them mustered with far more facility than under the old system. Except in case of invasion, or rumour of invasion, they were not to be called to serve out of their locality. This plan he considered was simple, and easy, and economical, and would produce a force which would be found essential for the purposes for which it might be required. The Hon. Member for Montrose had compared this measure to conscription in France. Now he held it to be the duty of every man in the country to contribute by all means in his power to the preservation of the liberties and interests of his country. The Hon. Member for Montrose, however, attached the odious name of conscription to such duty. He replied that he considered it was the constitu tional obligation of every man to rally round his hearths and altars; and he considered that by that obligation all men were bound.—(Cheers.) The inhabitants of twenty to twenty-three years of age were to be first called upon to serve their country for four years. During that period they were not to be taken out of their own localities, except in case of invasion. They were only to submit to a drill of fourteen, or at most twenty-eight days. This was a light duty, and he for one should be disappointed if such a proposition went to the country to be hooted as unpopular and as a conscription of the people. The Hon. Member for the West Riding said he should prefer the regular army to any other force of the country. The Hon. Member for Montrose would no doubt oppose the vote for an increase of 4,000 for the army, and he suspected the Hon. Member for the West Riding would support him.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding said nothing was so menacing to France as this pro position. He could not understand why there should be any thing menacing to any foreign nation in a proposition for providing means to defend your own country. He could not understand how an act of self•protection should he menacing to any country.—( Hear.) Lie was willing to take his share of the blame tbr not having moved in this direction sooner. He confessed the time had come, and Government certainly were remiss in not having taken the steps which they now took. He anticipated that a foundation was now laid for establishing a home force, which was never to be called into the field until there was an absolute necessity for their services. He could not object to see a portion of the community trained to arms who had something to lose— who would not be mere substitutes for other men—substi tutes drawn from the dregs of the people, and dangerous men to be trained to the use of arms. The force which would now be raised would consist of such men whom it was right to train to arms for the defence of the country. The subject would be further entered into when the Bill was brought forward. The Noble Lord had made some objections to the details. He would say there was an objection that the measure should be referred to the consideration of a select committee upstairs. There was one part to which he would make a few remarks. The Hon. Member for Dublin asked if Ireland was to be included in the Bill? He replied that neither Ireland, nor Scotland formed any por tion of the Bill. It was limited to England, as it was to that part of the United Kingdom it was considered essential to apply the militia system. Ireland was not expected on account of any doubt about the loyalty of Irishmen; for all knew it danger threatened this country or the Crown there was not a single man in Ireland, whatever his religion or po litical opinions, but would fly at once to the defence of his country and rally round his Sovereign.—(Hear,) Mr. NEWDEGATE, after referring to the recent murder of Mr. Burns by Borneo pirates, said he hoped the House would not be misled by gu'dei who had hitherto proved themselves such fallible prophets of peace. He did not wish to take any part in the question relative to the necessity for further defence to our territories. In 1848 he did not think additional defence was required, but after a careful inquiry into the subject from those most competent to give correct advice he was convinced of the necessity of supporting the measure of her Majesty's Government. He did not mean, however, to give his support to all the details. In 1848 he opposed the embodiment of the militia • in 1852 he supported the proposition for the militia. He believed some parts of the present Militia Bill were likely to prove useful, and he considered he was doing his duty in giving the measure his support. Mr. E. B. ROCHE rose to protest against the general tone of argument adopted ' that night. He entirely con curred in the eulogium passed by the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) on the loyalty and courage of the Irish people. But in what they were doing, bringing forward an act fur the further self-defence of the country, would Govern ment allow him to ask whether they were acting quite fairly or prudently towards a people described by the Noble Lord as pre-eminently loyal? It was folly to think the acts of that House would not be canvassed in England, in Ireland, and on the Continent. They might be assured that continental nations would say, "while England is arming herself for defence against hostility, is there not an important portion of the kingdom, either by neglect or design, left undefended?" Let Members speak boldly and plainly. He had seen with pain writings and publications in Irish newspapers tending to invite a French invasion. He bad seen with pain and disgust those publications. He deplored the fact of such things having been written, he deplored the effect and the act ; but he also deplored the conduct of her Majesty's Go vernment in hesitating at arming the Irish people, for such a proceeding added a kind of colouring to the base and wicked attempts and arguments of misguided people. He did not agree with the views of the Hon. Member for the West Riding. He believed the voluntary system was the best, cheapest, and most constitutional mode of defence. If that were so, in what position was Ireland placed? What the Noble Lord said was true—the better defended and prepared a country was, the less was the chance of invasion. But if they took care that Ireland should not be armed, what was that but an advertisement to France," Soldiers my be landed here." Such would be the consequgiaces of excluding Ire land from the Bill. There was n doubt Ireland con tained a fe a disaffected men, but the great majority of the the peo Government. they and peaceful Irish pglerawaaerdeeanswlodcahl th he ca e ll p ed eop u l p e o o n f England. That twas were well affected to her Majesty's loyal England. The Bill excluded hoped, h o wever, like the new Ireland and Scotland. H e c s b a j a e t c r t 3 s , , a t os they ye had them g i t v h e e n s t a o me means of protecting their of Ireland were not d ec l a ration to Europe, that the peop le I t t h e e fo s r a m m ß e i 1 0 l s b , that e If n y w t, e i r t e w t a o al have b s e e p n a e r t a h t e i a ßills h to r t e fl e e f c a t also calumniate the Irish people. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Ho n. Member was wholly t a o be great eat dependedmsta e p o a u s . sltafttetneyend,i dandthipsratchteicyalwlyout c l h d ey o w m o m ul i d t the d people of Ireland. Had Ireland bee n introduced into unwarranttedßill i o n n s a u c p oo p u os n i t ng of th an at y Ireland bad in t b h e e e n l o e y x a c i l t u; e odf the present Bill it would have created great confusion on b ftaot u nl rid t n gt G ah t o ehp v yaa e tr r wt n wo m ouof account of the great number of parishes and unions. The Bill for a local militia was made not to apply to Scotland; Scotland, or that the people were not as loyal as the people Government hdt apply did not mean thereby to imply distrust of teolfonnEp employed lebaden in the decided domv was, e e r t nr metropolis ihts whether hn i d edr this was a local militia Bill, hciauvoet quota t of to o militiabEngland considered—the respective districts, or to be exempted from the theyt o largesbheo towns.ulcontributedd was a fine body of men, The tTh.eheporobellwiicgeaasftoioorennees e and were ready at the call of duty. They numbered b allowed T h e by l g o e the o tso- o of the Militia Act (as we understood.) Irish constabu larywas brought they had always behaved well, consi deration when a Bill was introducedwou f l o d be taken into rlreland. The ques tionor 12,000. This body of police was, whether the present Bill would be ht followed up by other Bills. Certainly if a Bill there would also be a Bill for Ireland; and for Scotland for either had been now introduced, that resultedough no Bill from no want of confidence in the loyalty of the people of those countries. Captain HARRIS said it was perfectly disgraceful to have a panic 'about invasion every two or three y ears . Our commercial relations were larger than those of any other country, and on that account we required a larger navy. If we took our rival, with whom at present we were at peace, it would be found that it had a sufficient line-of-battle force in men and guns to cope with us. lie could not con eider our ships in harbour as efficient ships, and unless men were to be had to mail them he could pot eee where their TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1852 efficiency was. He hoped gentlemen had matured a plan for manning the navy. The present Bill gave them a good op portunity of cousi,Tering the saject. Tl:e reason why he had no: brought r)rward a measure on the subject last ses sion w:-.s bee..iusQ the Hon:;e was so much occupied with the nurcantile marine measure. Sir F. BARING thought he should be, able on an enrly day to bring in a measure on the subject, and hoped the Hon. and Gallant Member would therefore postpone any motion with regard to it. Mr. S. HERBERT bore testimony to the fact stated by the. Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, that the opinion which he had expressed to-night on the subject of the militia was no new opinion, for when he (Mr. Herbert) held the office of Secretary o f War the Noble Lord frequent l y questioned him on th e su bj ect. Those quest i ons h a d not been without effect, for th e l ate G overnmen t b e came so fully persuaded of the nece ss it y of taking some steps i n the mat ter, that at the desire of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, then Secretary for the Home Department, and of the late Sir Robert Peel, he (Mr. Herbert) drew up a Bill for the revisin g o f t h e militia laws, with the view of bringing the subject before Parliament. He was glad the Government had taken the matter in hand. It was most impolitic and ve.y uneconomical to place the country in au alternate state of panic and economy. He quite agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the military service of the country should beorganised, so t h at the greatest e f f iciency should bo had fur the money exp en d ed. In a country like t hi s , an d with the prejudices a n d f eelings that existed on the su bj ec t, t was impossible to h ave a standing ' army so large as might be necessary. Recour se , t h erefore, must be had to some method by which the serv i ces of large masses might b e ob tained without the ne cess i ty of maintaining them a ll t h e year round. It app eare d to him that some inconvenience might arise from the G overnment having dealt with the local rather than with the general militia. The local militia differed from the general militia in many points, but the distinguishing point between them was, that the local could not be moved out of their counties except in cases of invasion or, of an apprehension of invasion. There appeared to him, therefore, this objection, that ex actly at the time when invasion was apprehended, and when negociations were most critical and delicate, it might be wished to move troops down to the coast, which, if done, would look very like a declaration of war. If the militia were embodied on the principle of the regular militia, that need not be done, but as the proposal stood, it would in a case of emergency tend to the inconvenience he had pointed out. He certainly regretted to hear the Right Hon. Gentle man state that the Government were willing to refer the subject to a Select Committee. He thought the question was one which the Government ought to deal with on t h e i r own responsibility, and must pr o t est against mak i ng t h e House of Commons, instead of the Ministry, responsible for the measnre.—( Hear.) Sir G. GREY said that the essential distinction between the local militia and the general militia was that the one was offensive and the other defensive. All that they sought to do by this proposal was to provide for the defence of the country against invasion. During the last war the regular militia was established in order to leave eve ry so l d i er f ree, not f or the purposes of internal defence, but fo r carry i ng on a war on the Continent; and it was well kno wn to a ll th a t th a t militia did duty in the United Kingdom and in Ireland as soldiers, and was also available as a means of recruit ing the regular army. But the present measure was pro posed with no such intention. No foreign war was anti cipated in which this country must take a part. If such a case should recur Parliament would be called upon to take the means necessary to maintain the honour and interests of the country. All that they had at present in view was to provide a defence against fbreign invasion, and the local militia appeared to be a force suitable for that purpose. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the calling out the local militia might .endanger negociations and lead to war. Mr. S. HERBERT—The moving of them down to the coast from one county to another. complain, because it Sir G. GREY asked if the moving of the r egu l ar m iliti a any yt country. the Right Hon. would not have the same effect? The obj ec t the Govern ment had in view was purely defensive, and w as one o f coul dwh L i c o h r d nno P ot Baronet as to a matter of fact. The Right Ho n . B arone t stated that towards the end of last year the reg u l ar m ili t i a Ab Le foreign Au isre used nation tsTo s aggressively c i u s h l d e d j to o againststicyo correct did all the military duty within the kingdom, and enabled the Government to send all the regular troops abroad. Now, the fact was that in January, 1814, there were of regular militia in the United Kingdom 82,000 , and of regular troops 55,000. All the regular troops, therefore, were not sent abroad. Sir G. GREY did not intend to assert that every soldier had been sent abroad at the period referred to ; but it was evident that if they had not had the 82,000 regular militia they must have had as many soldiers to supply their places. Mr. K. SEYMER hoped the Noble Lord would adopt the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Wilts, and not refer so important a matter as the proposal to a Select Committee. He differed entirely from the Hon. Member for the West Riding as to the feeling of the people of England on the subject. He did not allude to the opinions of that portion of them who were members of peace societies, or to their platform orators; but to the great bulk of the people. Mr. OSBORNE felt the inconvenience of discussing a measure not actually before them. He should not have presumed to offer a remark at this stage of the measure if he bad not felt it necessary to express his dissent from some observations made by an Hon. Member for whom he had a great respect, and with whom he frequently voted. With the observations made by the Hon. Member for the West Riding at the commencement of his speech he entirely agreed. If danger was apprehended from a foreign power, the most natural thing to be done was to call home our fleet lying idle in the Tagus. (An Hon. Member—lt has come home.) He (Mr. Osborne) should conclude it was still at the Tagus unless assured to the contrary by some autho rity. But while he agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding on the necessity of bringing home that fleet, and protecting the Channel, he must say that he never found his Hon. Friend so provoking or so aggressive as when he talked of peace.—(A laugh.) He regretted it, because in other things the services he had rendered had been great, but on the subject of peace he seemed to have a most unfortunate monomania.—(A laugh.) His Honourable Friend had actually said, that so great was his confidence in the morale of the French army, he did not believe they would make an attack on this country. Had his Hon. Friend confidence in troops who had so lately made such fusillades on the Boulevards at Paris? Did his Hon. Friend suppose that St. Arnaud, or any of their generals who had taken part in the late scenes, would hesitate to attack this country—they who had not hesitated to break through all law, human, and he might say , divine, and who had placed th e leaders of their own Legislature under arrest ?—(Hear, hear.) If his Hon. Friend had con fidence in such an army, he (Mr. Oaborne) had not. He was neither an alarmist nor an economist, but he looked upon the Government as responsible for the safety of the country. He should not now discuss the question of calling out the militia; but he must say that no foreign power could object to any measure which this country might take if purely of a defensive characte r . His Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding had stated that one of his objections to the proposal was the paying so small a sum as 10d. a day to the militia so called out. Now, on that ground, he did support the proposal ; for he was in favour of the cheapest defence possible. He thought the Noble Lord had completely answered the objections made with respect to Ireland. and he agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Wiltshire, that the measure should not be referred to a Select Committee, but ought to rest on the responsibility of the Government. Mr. COBDEN, in explanation, said be had often observed that if an Hon. Member was at a loss for arguments he often found out one upon mis representations of what another Mem ber had said. His Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex had charged him with having said that the French army had too mach honour Mr. OSBORNE—MoraIe. country. Now, what he Mr. COBDEN—had too muc h morale to invade this Gentlemen had spoken of 1 2,000 d or w 15,000 French troops landing on our shores without d eclaration of war, he had said that that would be buccan eerin g, g and that he did not --When Hon. think of fi cers would be found in t he army to head such an expedition—(Ohs oh) —without be hanged at once. and that if they did, Friend held any roid hshisaareson.invrF Mr. OSBORNE thought hi s • d bad substan tiated lion. Friend what he had stated. Tie knew not whether his Hon. andw,l.l.e„araje--stnitak.othn,ouatsthaetyhdiewsclaration of war, s lice ° who had violated the Co • in r anomt.—an to maintain. Constitution he had sworn --(Hear.) Really hi s Hon. F rie nd 's faculty of logical de duction seemed to fail him when everq u estion of peace or the war was talked of.—(Laughter. Lord J. RUSSELL, i n .) e r n e d n French feel r o e! i n w d a d y e a whier across the table, in answer to the Right Hon. the Me mber for Wilts, was un derstood to say that he only te refer the Bill to a Select Committee, for the pro posed its details Purpose of being con- , sidered ; the principle of course was for the House to discuss. i Mr: TRRLAWNY said a few asw ords _ in support of the Bill, conceiving it to be one whicheven a Radical Reformer might support. Mr. ALCOCK said that considering the present state of France he should aupport the Ai n ! He could not help making use of the present opp ortnn - vurge upon Govern ment the necessity of attending —it' to " to the arms supplied to our soldiers. Ile believed they were to those supplied inferior to the troops of Prussia, France, B e ; India, or Algiers. He would refer Hon. Members to a rticle gium, in the New Quarterly for November, 1841, the yif an v"shed for proof of the inferiority of the muskets of o Idle i rs to the jezails of the Affghans. It was absolutely necessaryur SO that the military authorities should turn their atten t i on the su bject. He to . believed one reason why our arm s w as to be found in the prohibition in favour were so inferior our gun-makers of which existed against the imp ortation of arms of foreign ma nufacture. Mr. HUME felt bound to correct the s tatement of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. H onourable Gentleman The Gentleman had referred to an article written ten years a g o, and seemed to be unaware that in con se quence of the Com mittee which had sat on this subject British service had been changed within the musket of the and that the muskets used by the Afrgba e last dve h yea a rs li been changed. These things ought to be known, army ad and the public ought to be disabused of the opinion th at lown, of the arms the soldiers were now inefficient. Sir 11., Vivian sent commissioned o ffi cer to every country in Europe had on _ to repor t the subject, and bring home specimen s et f the best muskets. Those arms had been brought home and tried, and the Ord nance department had directed the best of them to be selected for the British army- The whole of the flint muskets had been changed for percussion, and a vote of 150,0001. had been granted for the supply of new arrna. The Hon. Gen tleman ought not, therefore, to frighten old women by stat ing that the muskets of our troops would not fire. With re gard to the present panic and the propose I before them, he thought that some of the language which had been held on the subject would almost warrant a fortification of the whole coast, and the building of Martell° to wers, and the diggi n g of entrenchments on every hill. If a militia was necessary let the whole of the militia laws be c onsolidated, and the regular militia called out. He did no t see the justice of throwing the burden on persor-s of twenty-one or twenty-two years of age. Every one between the piers of eighteen and forty-five should ;be balloted for.' f TT , - -enr, hear.) His age would exempt him, but he only . wished he, was again at that age, even with the chance of being drawn for the militia. Captain „r SCOBELL believed that so for as e kept our sea and had ebips of a suf ticiently large size supremacy at the country would be - to protect our shores safe. He was element of Etem f not alarmed at the new , . e r it was of as in defence as in attack . With power which much use thought it almost i • mpossible for a steam would give he hostile force to approac h ou r in _ shores with out being a tt ac k e d. At the same time he con curred the suggestion s which had been thrown out as to th e pru dence of call ing h ome our fl eet. If due precautions were taken with reaper t to our navy, they might rest assured that there w ould n eve r be a hostile force on our shores. It was no easy mat terof any strength lande d like this, with a population double to invade a country what it was in 1803. Our sh i pswereteamers equal in size to those of any other nation, and ou . r . s _ , tl tough susceptible of cope with those of at Ay other power. We improvement, could had, also, the security that t he embarkati on of any force in the ports of France must be a work of days, and would beknown ed to the to our consuls, and comraunicat _ Government here. Dir. ANSThY the reminded il Qll. Gel:Wel:OM that if our population had doubled since 1803, it was one which had not been used to arms, and WAS in that respect unwarlike. He hoped that henceforth the pernicious system of passing an nually the Militia Suspension Bill would cease, and that re course tr,ml,l be had to the constitutional ftn-ce of a militia, a force sufficient to repel all dread of invasion, acd yet not sufficient to inspire the country with a ,, y of that alarm which would arise from a large addition to our standi n g army. He (Mr. Anstey) thought there ought to be no dif ference between our laws and those of the Channel Islands in that respect, where all were bound to serve in self-de fence, and they were thus saved from being subjected . to the expense of maintaining a standing army: Therefore, with ti,view of reducing our standing army, he should like to see a similar system adopted, and he believed the establishment of a good militia was cheaper and safer than any other sort. of force. Such a measure as the present he considered was wanting, and when they came to consider the de tails in Committee, any objections that might be enter tained towards th e p ropos i t i on o f t h e N o bl e Lard might be fully stated. The CHAIRMAN then asked whether it was agreed to that they should move the House for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the present militia laws? Hr. HUME considered it would be better to repeal all the old laws, and bring in a Bill consolidating them in one Act Of Parliament. Ile would ask the Noble Lord whether that would not be the better mode of proceeding? Lord JOHN RUSSELL suggested that it would be more advisable, before entering upon any discussion, to wait until they saw the Bill the Right Ilonourablo Gentleman had spoken of. The House then resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave :o bring i❑ the Bill. SUITORS IN CHANCERY RELIEF BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second reading of the above Bill. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that it was a most important measure. It was one for the abolition of fees to certain officers of the court, and at the same time it gave a power to the Lord Chancellor to issue stamps from the stamp-office to supply the place of those fees. He wished to know from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite what limit was placed to the Lord Chancellor's power in respect of that dis cretion placed in his hands ? It should be remembered that they were thus parting with a power which was one of a most serious character—namely, that of taxing the subject. They knew that the Court of Chancery levied very large sums annually. He also wished to know why it was that one class of officers were to be paid out of fees or stamps, and another out of the Consolidated Fund ? The present was a time when he thought the whole financial system cf the Court of Chancery should be placed on a solid basis. However, it appeared to him that the present Bill would put that system in as complicated a state as it at present stood, so far as raising money was concerned. Up to the present moment the annual expenses of the Court of Chancery were about 200,0001., and therefore, on consider ing a measure like that, he contended that the House was bound to see that the money was raised in the best possible manner. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had endeavoured, in introducing that Bill, to explain, in the best manner he could, the various provisions in it. He thought he had clearly shown that its effect would be materially to simplify and nut complicate the present financial system of that court. There were about 90 officers now, who were paid in 330 payments; and, in lieu of that, it was proposed by the present Bill to have payments made by means of stamps. The Hon. Baronet asked him what limits it was proposed to set to the power of issuing stamps. In reply he had to say that the first object in view was to put an end at once to such a number of small payments, and it was advisable that they should be concentrated at some particular point of each case. That was the reason wby it er si nt ygi osi.nnrbksgr been Henneii 1 inetleuergrahopre doepßhgounoii acrrsl regretted i the a tgodee d t ° fixing was the e t o 0 t g give taxation,th e L Lord the exact the m p w o h w e e n r of tt would be most expedient could only be ascertained by ex perience and practice. It was said that some of the salaries were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, while others were still to be continued out of the stamp duties. He did not think any other arrangement would be a just one, for the reasons he had stated in introducing that Bill to the House. It was manifestly the duty of the Government to provide for whatever expenses might arise from the necessity of ad judicating upon conflicting rights. The judges and officers connected with the court, therefore, were properly paid out of the Consolidated Fund. But there was another branch of the Court of Chancery which was purely administrative, and which did not come under the same reasons. Many persons might wish, for their private convenience, to place their affairs in the Court of Chancery; and it was only right and fair that they should contribute to the expenses which their own convenience or business caused. As he had stated when he introduced the Bill, he believed that about 107,000/. a year would be saved to the suitors by the proposed measure. Sir J. GRAHAM did not rise for the purpose of opposing the second reading of the Bill, having formerly given his ap probation to a similar proposition. On the contrary, he had heard with much satisfaction the statement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who brought it before the House. That was not the moment to enter into the details of the Bill, which should be done in Committee. He merely rose, there fore, to put a question to the Hon. and Learned Attorney- General on the subject before them. The House would re collect that on the 27th of June last they had agreed to an address to her Majesty , praying that two gentlemen not of the legal profession might be added to the Chancery Com mission already appointed. The address further went on to request " that her Majesty would be graciously , pleased to cause instructions to be given to the said Commissioners to direct their attention to the business of the masters in ordi nary of the Court of Chancery, with a view to ascertain whether the expenses of their offices might not be ma terially lessened, if not done away with."—(Hear, hear.) In accordance with the prayer of that address, the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and himself (Sir J. Graham) had been added to that Commission. In obe dience to the directions of the Commission, they had turned their attention to all the general matters connected there with, but particularly to that point which the House had more especially noticed. The Commission consisted, amongst other individuals, of two vice-chancellors, three members of the Chancery bar, and several of the judges, oesides my Honour abfe Friend behind me (Hr. Henley), and myself. It would appear that the composition of the Commission was some what heterogeneous. Nevertheless, the report to which they had agreed had been signed by all unanimously. They had reported with respect to that particular point to which he had referred, that no additional Masters in Chancery ought to be appointed - (Dear, hear)—that the masters now in office should occupy their time exclusively in the winding up the business at present before them—(Hear, hear)—and that in future the judges in chamber should do the business formerly performed by the masters . - (Hear.) Now he had been delighted to see that in accordance with some of the pare- Ig o r Majesty's He was fully aware of all the circumstances which would ne ghrisaPinhsteonft bino c e e oi s not, thought might however,i oun l y fgo cause thEtnb tgeh aaahntddedetovlhpeha the carrying c adpd it not that he had to state his surprise that the Lord Chan celloranother place his hope that the recommendations with re spect to the masters, in the report of the Commissioners, if it were so, for the recommendation in question he consi dered was the key-atone of all the rest.—(Hear, hear.) And be satisfactory to the people of England more than any other suggestion made.—( Hear.) He rose, therefore, chiefly to ask whether the Lord Chancellor had made up his mind on that part of the report, or whether it this go. expressed x c sh t a l i poi ou i e e n o l sd n s webdwe° woulduegoirl in another or not was approved of by him ? If there were any questions of be considered, he could say that he would be one of the last men in the world to see gentlemen occupying the positions of the Masters in Chancery treated with anything like harsh ness or injustice.—(Hear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it appeared to him that the observations of the Lord Chancellor were misun derstood. That Noble and Learned Lord had been placed in the unusual position of being obliged to make answers to questions which were put to him with respect to the de tails of other measures. That was not regular or usual when a future opportunity would be afforded for discus.. sing those details. If any impressions had gone abroad, caused by the supposed statement of the Noble and Learned Lord, that there had been any delay on the part of the Government in carrying into effect the Bill founded on the instructions of the Committee, he could assure the House that no possible delay beyond the ordinary delay had occurred. He could say that a most erroneous im fnttopii IttnFrhhae scaartheitteeaunnstßvptuhdeiogil h ad a that announcedet subject. im pression, like that he alluded to, had been produced, if any such existed. All that the Noble and Learned Lord in tended to state was, when asked whether he had definitively made up his mind with respect to the whole of the clauses of a Bill not before Parliament, that it was extremely incon venient for him to give his decided opinion on such a matter, and he therefore declined stating whether or not he had made up his mind on any particular point until the Bill was actually before the House. But the Noble and Learned Lord had stated,when the reportwas made, that he was most anxious to carry out the Bill founded on the report of the Committee of the House. It was only four days before the assembling of Parliament that the report of the commission had been placed in the Noble Lord's hands, and immediately after he had given directions to have a Bill drawn in accord ance with that report. He (the Solicitor-General) had been allowed to communicatethe general opinion of the Commis sion before the final resolution had been come to; and when he had told him that the office of the masters was under consideration, he had at first said that he would not recom mend their abolition; but as soon as he was aware what the exact report of the Commissioners was, the Noble and. Learned Lord had given immediate directions for the prepara tion of a Bill in accordance with the recommendations of the report. It was only when they came to frame a Bill that the time had arrived to test its details; and it was to that state of things that the Lord Chancellor's remarks applied. Until he saw the Bill in a certain shape he said he could not state how far the Act would have his approbation or not. That the Bill would carry out all the recommendations of the Co ssmmissioners re ,he had no doubt whatsoever ; and he could au the Right Hon. Baronet that there would be no delay in its preparation. Mr. HENLEY said he had heard with great pleasure the s t a t e ment of the Solicitor - General , su pp osin g he had under if der i - f s t o od the Hon. and Learned G entleman properly.. For he caught the meaning of his w ords ari g ht, it was this — that the statement of the Lord Chan cellor had reference n ot to to th a t particular point of the report of the Commissioners w hich allusion had been made , bu t to some details of a mea sure which might be proposed to carry out the same object. nment were His mind was then so far relieved that q - °ver of the Com determined to carry out the recommendations missioners. at th a head of the Sir G. GREY said his No ble Frien culd do would be Government thought the best thing he p of t h e intention to to give as early a notice as possiblet of the Commission. bring in a Bill founded on the repor hewould say that the With respect to that Comm ission, reales t possible assist legal portion of it had derived the g ance from the other gentlemen who h a d been associated with them.—(Hear.) time, and ordered to be The Bill was then read a second hich tusk i r e e g t e ha w t in c --- - committed. ST. ALBANS DISFRANCISEMENT BILL. Sir GEORGE GREY moved for leave to bring in a Bill, of which he had given notice for the disfranchisement of tli an erg: ueesiorlylte,hcartonwdt Thrown ie p ar r e o t c ha e ew e d aw a y of a c 0 the Borough of St. Alban's. The Right Hon. Baronet said, it would not be necessary that he should state, at any length, the grounds upon which be made this motion. The 11 p c g o lua u ce l ne d c aperfectlytof the e lastonse wo b e s l investigation, it pas.sed an Act in the course of last complete the preamble of which stated, that corruptracti session ' • • the borough of St. Albans. prevailed in By that ces had long Commissioners were appointed, with full pow Act three witnesses and and documents. Of the powers for calling of that Accostand of the Commission appeint4umplet situceza had the m gratifying proof in the book under , they which contained the evidence they had taken,"w before him, their report upon it, and which had been together with ment. The Commissioners stated thatn laid before Parlia their inquiry with a view to ascertain they commenced rupt practices were confined to few whether those cor they were the result of a cases only, or whether system ' which had long prevailed in the b atic course of corruption, it was general, a nd was the orough. They . found that election for the borough memb usual accompaniment of an the Rome with re Ading ext ens ive Members. He would not trouble extracts from their report, I as it had been in the hands of Members for a considerable time, but would merely allude to some of the snore striking facts which they had detailed, and which were abundantly established by the evidence. They stated that the number of electors, consisting of 101. freeholders and scot-add-lot voters, we; 483, of whom 380 vo t e d . Th ey gave th e su m expended upon the election as .17,0001, of which they calculated that at least three-fourths was spent in bribery. Politics, they said, had no influence whatever in these elections, great numbers of the voters being ready to dispose of their votes fur money placed in their hands. The Commissioners, at page 27 of their report, added same other matters, and amongst these they exonerated the gentry and clergy from having partici pated in the corruption. He passed over, however, that portion of the report which related to individuals; as it was in evidence before the Commission, and as the Act of Par liament indemnified them. no proceedings would be t a k en against them on account of their statements. As regarded the practice itself, the Commissioners report states that it had long prevailed in the borough of St. Albans, and that bribery to a great extent bad been systematically carried on. The conviction which must force itself, therefore, on the mind of any one who gave attention to this evidence, and report was, that corruption in this borough had prevailed to an extent almost unprecedented, and fur a considerable length of time. That being so, the only cure they had to propose was the disfranchisement of the borough. This was not a new course. It was the remedy which Parliament had had in contemplation, in the event of the result proving such as it had proved. He, therefore, trusted that there would be no objection to the motion he had to make, viz., for leave to bring in a Bill for the disfranchisement of the borough of St. Albans. He should not at that time take notice of the amendment of his Hon, and Gallant Friend the Blember for Westminster; as he understood that the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman did not intend pressing it. Sir D. L. EVANS believed there were ample grounds for the motion which he had proposed to bring forward, but he was aware that a technical objection would be made to it, that no commission had sat to inquire into the practices of the borough to which his motion referred; but there had been a Committee to inquire into the corruption that had taken place in Harwich, and it was his impression that if a commission were appointed to inquire into the practices that prevailed there, instead of a lesser case than at St. Albans, greater corruption would be found in Harwich, and more ingrained in the constituency. The Committee over which the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield bad pre sided had done all that a commission appointed by the Crown could do, and therefore, instead of proposing as an amendment on that occasion the motion of which he had given notice, he should to-morrow (this day) move that no new writ should be issued for Harwich without ten days' notice, which would afford an opportunity of taking the sense of the House upon the propriety of that borough being disfranchised. Mr. SEYMER said, that the borough of Harwich being unrepresented in that House—(Cries of " No, no")—and he having been the chairman of a Committee that had sat to in quire into the votes given on the election for that borough, he must say that of bribery and corruption there was only a very slight trace—he could not say more—(A laugh)—there was one case in which some thought that the election was influenced by corrupt practices, but that was the only case. He did not say that the Members were immaculate (" Hear," and laughter),--but at all events they were pru dent—(Laughter),—and that prudence ought to serve them in good stead. There was no proof of corruption, and, that being so, he thought that, having no representative in that House, the borough ought to have some considera tion.—( Hear.) Mr. BAGSHAW said that no one doubted that up to 1841 the greatest possible corruption did exist at the elections for the borough of Harwich; but he emphatically denied that anything of the sort had taken place since that time.—(A laugh.) Could anything show it more than the circumstance of Sir J. Hobhouse's having been nominated for the borough, and being returned for it without having ever seen the place ? but, unquestionably, from that time to the present, nothing in the shape of corruption had existed in the borough, and he was delighted to find that the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster would move for a commission to inquire into the corrupt practices alleged to prevail there, as the bad odour and bad character of the borough would be at once ob literated, and it would shine out with greater lustre than before.—(Laugh ter.) Sir J. WILLOUGHBY had himself not long since repre sented Harwich, and he could testify there was, at that time, nothing like the corruption existing in the borough which was imputed to it on the other side of the House. Mr. ROEBUCK wanted to prelude a sham. There could be no doubt that downright corruption existed at Harwich, but the point was, that the House should keep in mind that there was no real difference between the corruption of the poor, and perhaps ignorant voter, who sold his own vote for a SL-note, and the whole sale corruption of the rich proprie tor, who sold his nomination borough for 2,000/.—(Hear, hear)—except, indeed, that the criminality of the latter to wards the country was ti:e far greater of the two. He trusted that this point would not be lost sight of in the pro gress of the new Reform Bill, and that the House would not permit the sham of disfranchisiog a et - irrupt borough, because a couple of hundred men did th ere in small what the rich nobleman or commoner did in large, and on his own sole ac count, in his nomination borough,. and let the nomination boroughs escape.—( Hear, bear.) Lord D. STUART did not conceive that the Hon. Mem ber for Harwich had at all mended the matter on behalf of the nest of corruption which he represented. He heartily concurred in his Hon. and Learned Friend's hope, that the House would get rid of nomination boroughs as well as of simply corrupt boroughs. Mr. BELL rose, and was loudly called upol to proceed, whiih he was about to do, when he sat down again, and said he would reserve what he had to say. Mr. WHITESIDE asked whether the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet had been directed to that part of the St. Albans evidence which stated that Government places had been the reward of persons who had committed corruption on behalf of reform candidates? (Hear.) Sir G. GREY was ignorant of any such rewards having been given by the Government to which he belonged for any such corrupt practices, but the evidence referred sb having been given on oath it was not for him, of course, to question it. Lord C. HAMILTON wanted to know whether Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had such a horror of corruption in relation to all who sat on the benches opposite to them, had ever heard of Mr. Coppock—(Hear, hear)—that remarkably active member of the Reform Club—(Hear, hear)—who, whenever a new writ was moved, was sure to repair by spe cial train to the vacant borough, for purposes which the St. Albans evidence fully developed. - (Hear, hear.) He should be glad to know whether the virtuously indignant members of the Reform Club had ever, individually or collectively, taken any steps to put a atop to the operations which Mr. Coppock had notoriously been engaged in for the last 15 years.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. ROEBUCK begged to inform the Noble Lord that he, for one, had had nothing to do with Mr. Coppock in any of his elections, and that Mr. Coppock would never have dared to come where he was a candidate, pretending to be on his side. He had stood always on his own ground; and, as to his expenses, which in relation to his elections had never gone a farthing beyond the bona fide legitimate expenses, he had, in each case, been distinctly told by those who had elected him that he was in no degree to consider himself called upon to meet them. Lord C. HAMILTON—Is not the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman a Member of the Reform Club ? Mr. ROE BUCK—Yee, I am ; but I never go there. (A laugh.) Mr. SPOONER said, that the question which had been put to the Government merited a fuller and more serious answer. The Right Hon. Gentleman had probably not missed this evidence of Mr. Coppock : "You have told us, which no doubt is the fact, that you have had great experience with regard to contest in dif ferent boroughs upon the Liberal side; have you, as a matter of fact—we do not ask any details or any names — exerted yourself to obtain places for those who have sery you on those occasions, either under Government or elsZr where ?—I have exerted myself on every occasion to serve those to whom I considered myself indebted. But in that particular way of obtaining a place ? Not more in that way than in any other way. Have you in that way ?—I have taken people into my own office ; I have placed them in other people's offices; I have got them situations on rail ways, and I have got them situations anywhere. Have you got them situations under Government in any one case ?—I certainly have been the means of recommending people to situations under Government. And they have obtained them ultimately ?—I have had clerks in my own office who have had situations from Government. That is rather avoiding the question P—Forgive me for saying this; you are putting a question to me upon a subject as to which, you know, there is a positive legal punishment attached to it; you may say that here nothing will attach to it; but, as in connexion with St. Albans I negative it entirely, I really think you should not ask me that question so generally a that; but I will answer it if you choose, The certificate that we shall give you will hold you harmless from all t e ~. con sequences of any sort or kind, civil or criminal_ following question aware of that. [The short-handwriter reads do th e 1 not ask anfory question Have you, as a matter of fact — I details or any names—exerted yourself to .obtain places those who have served you on those occasions either under Government or elsewhere ?']—Certainly I have exerted my. self to serve parties who have served me." If the Government did not re move the impression produced by this evidence the country would believe them to be fore most among the promoters of corruption. Sir G. GREY did not know what other answer he could give than he had already given. Mr. BELL had desired, on various occasions, when this unfortunate a matter—(Laughter)—had been before the House, to take part in the debate, but he had always been dissuaded by some person or other, so that for the last fifteen een months he had an incubus hanging over him, which he had The w s nand. ;stood g , and e ) h had no opportunity of h e a x d pl b a e in e i n ng m a i course he had taken been supposed either indifferent on the matter or unab e l h e a t d o afford a satisfactory explanation of his conduct. Just now, again, when about to offer some remarks to the House, it had been suggested to him to hold his tongue—(A laugh)— and to take his own but he was determined now to act upon his own judgment, course.— (R ear,hear, and a l aug h.) H e h a d admitted the expediesnacyieeettwh h i s il abstaining from address ing the House on the h p e nding, and while a n um b er of other persons judicial h i e n s q i d u e i r e y h w i ea ts self, engaged in this unlucky trau sac ti being compromised ; b ut no on, were capable of such reasons now existed for restraining the explanation which he had so long desired to make to the Rouse. Before he said anything about the borough of St. Albans, ;he events, to clear himself f wished in some degree, at all from the extreme severity of the accusations which had pressed upon him, and from the im putation that it was with his eyes open he had plunged into this aff a i r, and knowing all the circumstances of the case before him.—(A laugh ) lookin g It was all very easy for gen tlemen,for it on ground all the details of which had been by close research mapped out, to point out what s hould have been av o id e d , and where the' difficulties and dangers lay, but he had had no such advantage when be set out in the matter.—(A laugh.) It was perfectly clear that he had committed one grave error, and that was in go in g down to St. Alba ns at all.—(Great laughter.) But bow was he to have known that the belief on which he had been led to act was a fallacy ?—(Laughter.) Was there not ground for him to suppose that in going down he should not be opposed, seeing that the three parties in the borough had each, through its representative, requested him to go down? (Laughter.) In his ignorance of the borough and of the politics of the people there, when he found all three parties saying they were willing to support him, surely it was not for him to suppose that any disputes about secondary mat ters--(Laughter)—would set any of these people against him when he had got down amongst them. (Laughter.) Having once embarked on the battle-field, having pledged himself to go to the poll. having canvassed the electors vigorously in order to secure a position as soon as pos sible—(Great laughter), —it was too late for him tr, retreat; there was no opportunity of retracing his stepo, or of extricating himself from the dilemma in which be found himself. He must confess, he had not been lons in the borough before tome very strong suspicions came !.nto his head —(Laughter)—but then he had not conceived it to be his duty to ferret out all the details of the proceedings (Great laughter.) He understood it was not usual for can didates to dive into every act of every agent who might be employed—( Laughte r )—b ut t h a t it w as simply the busmess of the candidate to canvass the constituency, in order to • sure his election; and thin was tin course which he took.-.. (Laughter.) He had since found himself to have been sadly deceived in various respects. For instance, there were electors who lied questioned him and cross-questianed him for half an hour together, and when the electors so 4ileS: ion jug him bad gone away as his supporters, Le had ir.agined that he had done iz all by his arguments— (Laushter)— whereas it had transpired in evidence that these parties had been corrupted, and had merely interrogated him and argued w:th him in order to keep him in the dark as to their proceeds ings.—(Great hughter.) There was one particular consi deration which had not made him a free agent, though he might have had strong suspicions that something im proper was going on—(Laughter)—that he was in the field and occupying a place which would otherwise have been oc cupied by another individual belonging to his party, to the Liberal party—(Laughter)—and he was told he was respon sible for the principles on which he went down, that was to say, Liberal principles—(Laughter)-end be could not, therefore, back out, even had he been so disposed -- (Laughter.) He might mention that when he spoke of going down to St. Albans on the piincialcs of "a party," he was not alluding to the Government, for the report that he had gone down as the Government candidate had no foundation in fact, and it was right that he should take that opportunity of contradicting it. He fully exonerated the Government from any participation whatever in the transaction, and in feet, it was the Government that had been pursuing him from the period of the election to the present time. More over, it was they who were bringing in a Bill to disfranchise the borough and from that and every other circumstance, he exonerated them from having any participation whatever in his election.—(Laughter.) lie had nothing further to say respecting himself in this matter, but with regard to the borough, he felt in a rather responsible and delicate posi tion—first, as the representative of the borough, and, secondly, as having a case to defend for which it the case, oughtc ase, to was impossible to off e r a d e f ence. —(Renewed laughter .) Bthuet only still, coarse e t , whichbeing h hee he p e t h rs o u u e g h vb e lte that to point out the injustice of carrying to such an extreme a measure with reference to one single borough, when it bad b e en proved before the Commission at St. Albans that the same system generally prevailed in a great many other bo roughs throughout the kingdom. The object of the Com mission had been to investigate the system of corruption and to take means of putting an end to it, and he must say that the Act of Parliament which had been passed for that purpose was the most sensible and efficacious mess - Mai had ever been passed in r eference to bribery and mess ption —(Hear)—and ho believed that if a similar Act were ap plied to every other borough in the kingdom, it would do more towards putting an end to those practices than any thing that had ever been done.—(Hear, hear.) Ile must say, however, if that House, instead of taking that gen era l, fair, and consistent course, were to be content web making St. Albans the scapegoat, and grafting upon it the sins of every Member of that House, upon the suppo sition that by exterminating that one borough the House would be left perfectly pure, that such a course wmild be not only a delusion, but an injustice.—(Hear, hear.) A few days ago he had gone over the House of Correction— (Loud laughter) - and he saw there 150 prisoners. He knew at the same time that there were about 40,000 outside as bad as those who were in, but rather more cunning. Now, if these 40,0J0 were to hold a meeting, and to pass a resolution that, for the sake of making themselves stand well with the public, they should hang those 150 who happened to be in the prison, then, he conceived, that those 40,000 would be taking a course similar to that which the House was taking in disfranchising St. Albans, and leaving all the other boroughs of the kingdom as they were.—(Laughter and cheers.) He considered that under these circumstances, as representative of the borough, and being sure that unless he advocated its cause, other people would not, it was quite proper that he should come forward and oppose the proposed Bill to the best, of his ability, and he put it to the con sciences of other Honourable Members who knew what elections were better than he, whether it were right to single out St. Albans in this manner? He was told that the extravagance which he had indulged in was such as ought to have left no doubt upon his mind of the nature of the transactions that were going on. He begged to say that at the time of the election he was not aware of the amount that was being expended, and even if he had, comparing it with the amounts which he constantly heard spoken of, there was nothing extraordinary in it. He had heard it said, " Here is an lion. Member who has paid 60,000/. for his election," and " Here is another who paid 50,0001.," and another he had himself heard state that his election bad cost him 40,0001., while they all knew that elections costing from 5,0001. to 10,0001. were as plentiful as blackberries. Now, he had had the excitement of an election, the luxury of a petition, and the further indulgence of a commission, and the sum total of his expenses had not exceeded 4,300/.—(Cheers and laughter.) Under these circumstances, he thought it was unfair to charge him with any extraordinary extrava gance; and Hon. Members who knew what elections were ought to know better than to be so exceedingly severe on St. Albans.—(Laughter.) It was true that the system did appear to be exceedingly corrupt when every detail was made clear, but how would it be, if the same principles were applied to cases where 60,000/. had been expended?—(Hear, hear.) He was not desirous of making any personal remarks, but he thought it only fair, having been singled out in this way, in consequence of the inexperience of himself and the imprudence of those who had conducted his election (which constituted the chief distinction between himself and others), that he should represent the circumstances of the case, and do all he could to place it in a fair position. It certainly appeared remarkably corrupt for a person to pay a sum of money for his election, but they found others who, instead of paying a sum down, spread it over seven years, and at the end of that time walked over the course and entered the House perfect patterns of purity. What difference, he asked, was there in principle between these two cases ?—(Hear, hear.) If an agent at an election treated an elector with a mutton chop and a glass of ale, he was liable to a penalty, and the Member might be un seated; but if a Member of Parliament, during the period of the Exhibition, for example, issued cards to all the electors, inviting them to his mansion in town to enjoy his hospitality, even though it were in anticipation of an election, that was perfect purity and perfect hospitality.— (Hear, hear.) lie might mention many other cases where the principles were precisely the same, although they differed in appearance. (Ilear, hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP had been charged with corruption because he had exercised Christian charity towards a Christian people. Ile had been charged with giving away coals. Ile had done so, and he would do it again. —( Hear, h ear .) :tut what was the situation of the Government? He talked el Greenwich. Had the Government had nothing to do with that election ?—(Hear, hear.) Would the Noble Lord say that lie iced not sanctioned many acts which amounted to bribery, and that he had not unduly influenced boroughs and counties—aye, and a city, toe? The fact was, that the Government found fault with humble individuals for acts of charity, and if they would not vote for the Noble Lord's party they soon got a broad hint that they were not wanted.—(A laugh.) Mr. ANSTEY said there were two Members of that House who were connected ;with that borough, the fate of which was to be decided by the Bill. One of them, the junior Member, had been head at considerable length. and he thought it only just that the senior Member, far more experienced in the affairs of e. he borough, should also favour the House with a statement. He believed there were other boroughs in a predicament similar to that of St. Albans, and thought that all might be provided for by a general Bill. Mr. REPTON, in answer to a very ge.neral call from both the House, said that the House ;laving, during the sides of last session , appointe d a commission to inquire into the cir cumstances or St. connected with the last electi oa f Albans, and that c ommission having made its report , he felt that no was open to him but to bow to that re p ort.— ( He ar.) course thought the report perfectly just, and that the Commis sioners had come to a fair and, proper concluoion.—(Hear.) the matter, he had only to say that regarded his own share in , y candidate for the second time to re presentthat in 1847 he became a evernt, and determined to resist byy means la his power. 14e bribery and corruption tr nl ressed by declined it even when s ?eel) his agent. Ha went to the poll, and felt convinced on the day of polling that bri bery was being used in his behalf. The Commissioners put err and he answered frankly that he be lieved bribery heel been practised.—(Hear, hear.) Ten days after the election bills were brought to him, and ells legal adviser told him not to pay them, but believing OA he was bound to pa y them in honour, he discharged them immedi ately, and then declared publicly and privately that he would not again become a candidate for St. Albans.—(Hear, hear-) He had been called upon by the House f or ' a statement • he had now made it, and he had nothi ng f urt h er t ' th at on say, but on the word of a gentleman he had t d s ate the truth. Mr. G. THOMPSON said that it sure Mr. Coppock so severely, whileas hardly fair to cen others who had been engaged in precisely they left out many As a member of the Reform Club,rcisely similar practices. and knowing a great number of its members, he (Mr. Thompson) could say that a very large proportion of those with Mr.. nectedCoppock, and knew nothing of his proceed ines.—(Hear, b eer. ) To the majority of the members of the club, the revelati ensof the St. Albans Commission were en tirely new, but admitting believed there war other associations not very f countenanced notshort he had very dissimilar practices. In been told that it w. es not a very unusual thing for the gen tleman who had been namedito confer with a gentleman holding a similar e sasition to himself in the association to which he had alluded.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared that such a system had pr trailed ever since the passing of the last Reform Bill, and .had been found absolutely necessary. What he was anxious to see was suck a measure originated as should for the future avoid all necessity for ,such instru mentality.—(Hear, heerr.) Leave was then givele to introduce the Bill. Ma. COPPOCK. On the question that the Bill be brought in by Sir G. GREY and the ATTORNE Y..tiENERAL, Mr. ROEBUCK said Jae wished to say a few words upon were this, for the Government effected by it. As:ear as they had evidence upon the subject, this Mr. Coppock was in the immediate confidence of the Government —(Loud cheers, from the Opposition.) lle was informed that the Noble rd C. Hamil ton\ who h adput a question Lord opposite (G o s, to him, had not intended to imply that he (Mr. Roebuck) was at all implicated with Mr. Coppock, or that Mr. CA:P; pock had dared to interfere with him, but m erel y th was a e a conn ec t e d with a club of which Mr. Coppock also was mem b er; and upon that he asked,— "Have you, who are a' was made purist, done anything, after the declaration that by Mr. Coppock , to get rid of him as a member of the Re form that Club?" His answer to that quesuonthe Reform in social life he was a member of twine a-year ; Club. He went there once or perh a P s ein e, or of anything but, of the internal working of that --- a chop_ at the connected with it, beyond taking b e asked Hon. Gen table, he knew nothing; and tlemen present whet her the appeale knew nothing of what w hi c h had been made to him was a f a i r one? 11 put Mr. Cnock to went on there ; but he was nowg oin her. Coppock op said that the test, and the Go‘rernnient also. d Mr. Edwards said that there he was employed by s omebo ys Government employment to be given was an insinuation of a 1r Coppock to be there (pointing to to his son. He wanted 11 • loud cheers from th 0 e pposieion). the bar of the House, at nidst ieisfaction of examining Mr. Copptck. He had not had the s e a _ H taiould like to have that satisfaction if --(Hear, hear.) wouldrant it, for he did not believe in the purity the House (Renewed cheers from the Oennsiticia.) of the Government.—(Were that they were working a sham, aneellifft they He believed et. Albans. a sort of scapegoat to be sent into were making to take off the sins of the Administration. He the wilderness . the _ know if House would support him in bring wented to ock to that bar, in order that they might have i„g mr. CoPP different so . . rt of revelation from that which had been eh a t he Commissioners, capital as that was—(llear)--• cited by but still they might reap some advantage from it. lie wished the House to support him in that amendment, and he felt sure the Government would not oppose it—(lronical cheers) — b e eause, if they did, it might b e i ns i n uated that theykneve themselves to be guilty—(Cheers) —and he was sure that they would not allow such a n i ns i nua tion to pass-( Hear ) He wished to brie:lg Mr. Coppock to the bar, in order to learn from him what his communications with the Go vernment were, and who it was that told him that he had the power to dispense the favours of Government. Mr. Coppock would no d ou bt be able to enlighten them upon those points. Hon. Members were at present in the dark on the subject. Would they allow the House to go into Corn mittee upon gala Bill in the dark?--(Heae, hear.) Would _.-- sted ,hip, tO - she tuty, :k at mtly ad of eater ) the were that rooP" d ad ° bad I bad,. glob COO' e 1 calo r , be a; ... of' og , col 16 0-- )f bet of S I !: 3 1,0 1 w 00 0. 6 in 01 a wh °l ate: ' W il o i ; id C ebb B l ASI mitt:et 6 ,1014 0PC461 0 0 ill ass ,