The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-11 00:00:00

trad e t 7: ic us'"+""eiesseessasass. h prevents a t hat tho se who monopoly. I w ill venture to assert themselves i n a s i tuat i on to resort to so discredit a bl e a course . now clamour for the re p ea l o f t h e d uty are Would they for the sake of relieving agriculture, agree to so not the k e. , small maltsters, but the great monopolists.—( Hear, disgraceful a course, if they found it impossible to ovie a 3oal 1,, 3 Do away with the Malt Tax, and then that proper substitute ? I would call the attention of the House f. t h o i s ne e r ,000,0001. is at once taken out of the trade. There what we have been enabled to effect, by preserving good t . for doubt capital would distribute itself equally ; but with the public creditor. We have been able since 1822 to remit Press considerable time,—for some years,—it would the burdens of the country to the amount of 13,250,0001. This or all Trniost heavily upon those who were the enemies has been entirely effected by keeping sacred and inviolate the Z,_ .11. r .onopoly. Now, Sir, what would be the effect of the public faith. And if we continue to pursue the same policy, t i e :peal of the duty on Malt. The law would then be we may expect to be equally fortunate for the future.— al one , er Y 'llan will be able to make his own malt ; and the ( Hear, hear.) You have had the experience of the good st muchtlrable Gentleman argues upon this that there will be effects of honesty, of the advantages of the superior honour sis _ n greater consumption. I have a very strong impres- of England, and if you follow that course you will not only „ cr u n e 4- ?other result. If you permit every man to make his maintain the public faith, but you will be enabled by degrees tillatio 4 t' the result will be an enormous increase to illicit dis- to diminish the public burdens. But if you adopt another mea s il y "- The process of making 3lalt was a tedious one, and course, you will lose those advantages, and that which fair ade, overlooked, but spirits, the malt being ready, are easily play never fails to give to those who adhere to it. The history the Process the Excise have not the same chance of checking of this Malt Tax will itself illustrate the effects of the ss, as they would then not be able to interfere in policy which I have deprecated. It had, since 1816, under constant rtin eof th; malt. Again, if you are to have a gone several alterations, which it was afterwards found neces overloic uspection into the making- of malt, what a constant sary to retract; and I need not especially remind the House eve ry ° f ' ri g of, and interfering with the domestic affairs of of the last famous decision which had taken place respecting he a , ar nilY 1 The Hon. Member will find that there will this tax, and which it was found necessary to re mast folio result —a reduction in the duty on spirits, tract on the following Monday.--( Hear, hear.) It is c onsaa re tiOw, and lam afrdid that there will be no increased better, surely, to avoid a repetition of this conduct.. to-Taiuspotion of the beverage so much talked of. There ought It was for the purpose of preventing the House from seing i i , s ee r. __ (Toe insuperahle objection to the tax, which brought again placed in that predicament that he now appealed to them. ',folone7, cO/. before. you repeal it for the benefit of one interest They were told there was no hope of effectually resisting ar as ( beers, ) This is a resolution of the very worst kind, this attempt on the Malt Tax—that so . man , Honourable .d isrly, f respects trade generally, and the grain trade particu- Members were pledged to its repeal, that it would be carried ; He 4 0e or 5 ..,,, L --se a motion must put a stop to all markets. but I cannot believe that any Hon. Members could have th e , i i s tiot tell what he proposes, but if he can persuade pledged themselves to such a course, without . previously io Lis-Juse to pledg e itself to the principle he lays down taking into consideration all the circumstances affecting the_case. the, r esolution, he will bring in a bill to arrange I feel so confident that with a surplus of 520,000 . this House details.essrsis What would be the first consequence of the would never consent to the precipitant resolution f to care a .ir, l 7 of this resolution? It will depress the price of deficit of 4,600,0001, in the hope hereafter 9 supplying kat _ s Thisee 7 tour or five shillings the quarter. If the House pro- the deficit from other sources, that I would neverlisten . to . !hose th e to take off one half of the duty in October next, and who told me I must despair, and that I must do the injustice to Of tr O a t * !ler half in October, 18 9 6, what would be the state the House of Commons, to believe they would come to a vote so Will trader that time ? The brewers and maltsters rash, and so detrimental . to . public . credit, and . . every interest Whe n the their their operations until after the year 1826, connected with it. Sir, I still retain that opinion.—( Hear.) 4 1 , 04 7 will be subject to no duty.—( Hear, hear.) What I believe that the representatives of the . landed interest, "'annerendiene will not this be to a trade circumstanced in this forseeing the pressure upon other sources of industry, forese9- sepp os g the intermediate time.--( Hear, hear.) But ing the consequences of the property tax,. would . retain them to g the House is disposed to overlook all this—supposing the power of judging for ti - emselves, for thei constituents, under be determined to support a resolution brought forward and their country, whether it would be the wiser course to t o ' uch circumstances, supposing the House is determined retain the Malt Tax as it stands, or to force us into the con -841)1)°rt h' ar e the tis resolution by their vote, what course sequences that may arise from a substitution. Sir, that I believe take one p prepared to pursue ?—( Hear, hear.) We must to be the duty of the House, and I trust that the result of this ether articles of four courses—we must increase the duties on night's division will not show that my confidence in its judg to 4 p taate s . r° P e rtY Tax —w e must trust to a reduction of the esti- But, Sir, whatever may be the determination of the House, I sot --(Loud cheers from Mr. Hume and his party.) of one fact I am perfectly sure, that with my views as alte sos B , t 4 l . tiag the case perfectly correct. lam placing every to the consequences of this tax in the present state of the foot eel" 0 before the House. We must pursue one of those public revenue, I have no alternative but to submit those Malt T ai After having declared that the amount of the views to the consideration of the House, and if the House *it., a " is 4,6 00,0001., I will refer to one of the courses choose to overrule them, to leave them subject to the qeatie reduction of the Estimates. lam sure that any consequences of the responsibility which the . House will thus b een so rla s ", , after the progressive reduction that has incur. The Right Hon. Baronet resumed his seat amidst Year of " - le, and the further reduction in the . present very loud cheering.. a ndth e 'OOOl —after the efforts of the last Government At the conclusion of Sir Robert Peel's speech several Hon. exi st i n exertions of Lord Althorp—must allow that out of the Members rose at the same time, but Mr. Cobbett having been W ould e sti mates it is i m p oss ibl e to make any reduction that called for, he (Mr. C.) proceed e d t o a dd ress some o b servations Possibl e available in th e s li g h test d egree. If it were to the House, not a syllable of which, we regret to state, owing Ni e _ to make any reducti on i n t h e est i mates, we ought to to the low tone, proceeding, as we believe, from hoarseness, is 4 ''' Without reference to any other cause, because it in which the Hon. Gentleman spoke, reached the gallery. 4 kb" 1 1401 1 to support extravagant estimates that they are Lord NOR RE YS, although he had supported the motion for kly Gentle " 4 "t for the malt tax.--( Hear, hear.) But the repeal of the Malt Tax when it was last before the House, the lastmo_ s .O who has watched the course of reduction for could not conscientiously support it now. What were the cir- L4li' lasi t ,c,'ew Years, looking at the present experiment that cumstances in which the question at present stood ? There was 14 - , i "g in the West Indies, and the numerous other de- a new Government just come into office—(Great cheering :ker' t he ttiP °ll us, must see that there can be no reduction and laughter) —he would repeat there was a new Government NrezthsavY Estimates, nor can any one hope we can make a just come into office—( Cheers)—with every disposition to be sa,""tliUg reduction,' consistent with the public honour and friendly to the agricultural interest—( Great cbeering)—and 'vita -`' which would afford a reasonable resource for the Malt the Noble Marquis came down to the Houses_ and aked not thi nk t tner e may be ab out ten H on. Members in the House who for a partial but total repeal of the Malt Tax. (Great Sild t it whatever may have been the reduction hitherto, it cheering.) Now the question with him was, would "it ''' P r ogressive, and that they will find resources by the substituted tax be less burthensome than the Malt re t hit f ,°llO colony after another. 1 have . already stated Tax to the landed interest ?—( Cries of ', Hear.") He s et teel3o there will be a reduction in the estimates for the regretted that the motion should be brought forward at the 1 44 Vp.,. Year of half a million below what they were present moment, for if ever there was a time when there , bar' , but this would not supply the deficiency. should be union among the friends of the Government, a7r'Lls i s ,,,, n ew refer to the other alternative I mentioned, it was the present. If the motion had been postponed , o f r i s eal ing the duty upon other articles, such as spirits, for a few weeks, time would have been given to the Govern "al se e, and others. ' Will any gentleman say, that this ment, to have matured their plans.--( Cheers and laughter.) ti l ; L ssa, Z t i l l a large. and permanent increase of revenue ? Be- He thought . every allowance ought . to made for the diffi he 13 t his relieve the agricultural interests ?—( Cheers.) cult circumstances under which the Government were pro to raise the duty on spirits, how can it be ex- placed.—(Great laughter.) If they were to be thwarted the at at such a tax will benefit the agricultural interest ? in every measure they und9rtook,. it would be impossible L for d n: spir tsda ss made of? If a shilling a gallon be added to them to conduct the public affairs much longer—( ou oi eo to .; .°ll spirits, what will be its effect on malt ? cheers)--and he viewed the dissolution of the present iita th tl eielo , e b 't imust increase the duty on malt.. As I under- .. Cabinet as the most fatal blow that could be struck Leassteen y °u of barley will make two gallons of spirits— at the landed. interest.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) eisieuput the duty on spirits, it must of course produce He had no hesitation in saying that he should best consult the '% P e nding Wh You ro increase of the duty on malt. In Ire- landed interest giving his vote by in favour of the cour.se.in h_tt werduced the duty on spirits last year, and what tended to be pursued by his Majesty's Government, believing il sc s i l lati h e t he consequences of that reduction ? Thi s that no tax could be proposed in its stead, less burthensome, - ssio s „ °-, this constant recurrence to temporary re- and that if Ministers should resign on account of the vote the k,_e'eleis mischievous and detrimental to the parties House might give, their places would . be filled by those who i it 'Ps ke Y affect.._( Hear, hear, hear.) Such a system had always done every thing in their power to . subvert the a e tas+. 4 capital employed in these transactions landed interest, and advocated . those measures which were '44s:int eul barrassment,_ and, if continued, will have calculated to injure their country.—(Cheers and laughter.) Nis ei - 'eY to p re o lio , 1 . 0 b„ .. , vent men fro m . investing the capital they Mr. BENNETT said it appeared to him that the Right f ro 'alta os "eieSs, in which their prosperity depends on such Hon. Baronet had made a most affecting appeal to the Irish th'e as. b. C onduct. In Ireland spirits was last year reduced and Scottish Members. He told them that they were . is 14 1, 1 48 b e l s to 2 . 3. 4d. a . gallon, and what is the advantage not so highly taxed as the English, and that if they carried d i , . e d. _Li gained by it ? In England, the duty on spirits that motion, greater burdens must be borne by their constitu ti,l"aposti: gallon ;in Ireland, the duty is but 2s. 4(1.--a 'ants. He knew them better—they were not, on so important an d e z to it , ll so great as to hold out the strongest tempta- occasion, to be frightened by such a threat.. He h sa' 4 l h e " u ggling in this country.—( Hear.) Nothing also made a most affecting appeal to the English landholders, 4-ass so a s vrti on. unwise as to do anything to increase this dia_ but he would not catch their support by such means, because Aid a 1 have made enquiries as to the consequences ever since the passing of that Bill, which went bwould he name of e o Ta iai r ` e 'r the reduction of the duty in spirits that took of the Right Hon. Bart--( Cheers)—they net fear d fij*t sed a nd, and I find that, in the four months wheel the a Property Tax, for the greater part of the property had passe of aloe% n eed to 2s. 6d. a gallon, corresponding with the into the hands of the mortgagees—in the hands of those who 011 04 i s that the duty was 3s. 6d. a gallon, one million had authority now to do almost what they liked with the property, 14, 1 e t tiot e xs were brought to charge.—( Hear.) So it will the landlord was now a mere assignee for his cre . ditors, and distill 'how' an d--the revenue will not be increasesd, and as I cared nothing for a property tax. The only equitable mode 11 • •a, th itili Woo _. e agricultural interest will be injured. Illicit of taxation was to proportion it to the property of the country, NOketrhe ttse(iwill be carried on, and instead of grain, molasses which was protected,. and not . to the industry of . the people. of maceel the process. Such is the progstessive improve- That was a question which would force itself upon at'"ea h ie anical knowledge, that the facility for illicit dis- the attention of the House, as it had already done upon that ststseate.ben increased, and in most of Vale large towns it is of the country.--( Cheers.) The Hon. Baronet . had said that tbe 4C a thot-rried on to a very great extesit. I have demon- the duty on malt being repealed, the duty on . spiri . ts . mus . e . tee' is l llti % ll ° bene fi t will be derived fram the removal of this increased ls. which would give rise to great illicit distillation , Y ost u s ! it at the agricultural interest will not be benefit- but he had kept out of view that such reduction would . so much iposed,ad t h en Snail we then resort to a property tax ? facilitate the making of spirits, that it would reduce t Qe lie red uc e surplus revenue of 1,500,000/., and you pro- the cost much more than the one shilling.---( Cheers.) 'er e - ease the Malt Tax duty only one half, to which The tax upon labourers was 2d. a day—that amounted to Is. Il ot kie, ondagreed. Now, you have only 250,0001. surplus a week. Hon. Gentlemen might think that a trifle ; but he Pes es e 'eli wa L Y° l l propose to repeal the whole of that duty. could assure• them that it was, in fact, 18 . per cent. upon lio ou e asti`u, 1,600,000/. there was such a deficiency in the the poor man's wages.—( Hear.) The Right Honourable „NI a Pas e ,iP a „te,d by the reduction of half the duty, that the Baronet had talked much of the ) high price of barley at the Idtz4l „ - "e wit - 'ma resolution, that the repeal of the Malt tax present moment—but the fact was, that the crop this o P f re Perty . "' ic t,ax can only be . supplied by ,a tax on perso- year had not been half of what the former had been. e lea, the m ''''Y prophecy is that when you have got What does this prove? That a man may get a greater *lll,, %eh alt 'Fax you will proceed to tax little arti- quantity of alcohol at a cheaper rate in spirits than koaa -e 'ert t o 48 ,, . tobacco, wine, &c.—( Hear.) Then you he can in beer. This he wished to reverse. Beer topt7totsuinis resolution, and I congratulate you upon the shops, indeed, had lately increased the consumption NI th ti lky ou Stituting a Property Tax in lieu of the Malt Tax, of beer, but that was no advantage, because the poor man, in ks), at yolt tibia come, as you would raise such a storm about stead of laying out his wages in procuring necessaries for his in of th e me o ecn ild not lay a tax upon other articles ;or you family, was tempted to spend them in excessive drinking at those tea co Nal that which is really' valuable—the land shops. The Right Hon. Gentleman spoke of the difficulty of a Y untr do lt' Q-pea s ; Y --- (Hear, hear.) I think you will bit- making malt, and the unprofitableness of the business, which s:t:4 011 4; When you find yourselves compelled to sit he readily laadbomoirteterd;roulßdut makeif the i Manit malt t x inwasrivarete tioe 4ta tst i l li ; ` ti a l y h te with r ) a property An on tax vi, h upon e p a r ea graduated ent the heavy scrtle. m m a o l v t e_ d the h ' ouses. Of all the taxes that ol had plagued the s t N estt, °t ) as c o ?",trY, I think ' will bitterly regret it if you count r y, this was the worst. . It was not for him to point out 074 q,, is t,,,.--,;. impartial jury ought to do, for your the w a y s and means by which this tax was to be removed, 'sti os o "', ll ot forget your own comprehensive view of though that he considered was easy. Some comparison had a' th e the thfsk'-sk Hear.) My Noble Friend made a calcula- been made as to the effects of this duty upon the farmer, and to 4i t 4,dvantages to be derived from the Repeal the landholder ; but the cases were widely different. How ,?.4l;er, 4made- 4bax, and a more extravagant . calculation ever, one thing was quite true, that whatever was injurious tot ‘tel it h 'l any man. My Noble Friend says it will go to the farmer would inevitably injure the landholder.—( Hear.) b._ ,tat in f am h ear en / a arm of 250 acres there will be a saving Lord DARLINGTON next rose, and commenced by say- I, l lall Zalesi 8 • per annum. —(Cries of " Hear, hear.") I ing, that having had the honour to present a petition from t Ns t i:rre, `,1,) per an account of the condition of a the county he represented against this tax, a petition worthy of * " a ' ll a farm of 300 acres, that so much should be attention, both on account of the number and respectability of t4t iti l B dO S t° allo w of such a saving, why I should think the signatures, he felt it his duty to support the motion th e t) r e th an treble. On a farm of 700 or 800 acres, of the Noble Lord. After the able speech of the Right Hon.. ?vialt 10 ,4 o i a ri 500 or 600 gallons of beer is consumed. Bart., he felt that any arguments which might drop from him iteiript •ernatives are the hope of reduced estimates, would come with rather a bad grace, but he felt also that he ) Ik u ll re, ary,l(°, raise a revenue upon other articles of ex- had a public duty to perform.—( Great cheering ; 1 ti s •-(1-a 4 ukl rdly, a property tax. To this we must come Aware that amongst some of his friends lie might be charged he , on, ‘ it , ar.) On this subject, when it was last discussed, with faction on the one hand, and a design to embarrass *41 1 41 1 04 nd Le ar „..., is ,g s , th e is . eu Member for Ireland—(Laughter)—I Ministers on the other, he begged to say he never had given i t ht t e at card " 00 . and Learned Member for Dublin, stated a factious vote, and never would ; and in proof of that NindiP'itsi'le (and and fairness, that' if a Property Tax was assertion, he might refer to his conduct on the late two factious se s i d 9lat it is I have no doubt), it ought to be ap- votes in that House.—( Cries of " Oh, oh," from the % (11 4t 1114 t Ir t l i L :TOY to all his Majesty's subjects—( Hear) Opposition.) He would ask any gentleman to find out tl'sitia7 t o I" should bear its share in it.—( Hear, hear.) a single factious vote which he had ever given.—( Har. ) Sts' ti o il Will b t ell the gentlemen of Ireland that their He was not inclined to do any thing that would tend ( toeem ttlt I r, s ----(0 much worse than the proprietors of the barrass the Government, such confidence was he disposed to st q'sl 4 - ha ' in h e r L e s .. l , 3 f . " Hear, hear.") The amount of the place in the abilities of the Right Hon. Gentleman, ( Sir R. ils lt tty 1 - 11 . .09 In d . 3 Z ,is 2 42,000/., and the relief the people Peel) and is honest and zealous intentions. h He had made that hi t th o -‘pti to c alr would be to that extent, and I need avowal . to . his constituents on the usti9gs, and . he had no he "' t" illstitu .onvinee Hon. Members from that country sitation in repeating the same sentiment in that Huse H ' t i l 'il ti ` t Y t o the non of a property tax, as a countervail- —but he had a duty to perform, and that duty he was tilt Avo m t he ish i i ?"„ s of the revenue occasioned by the re- determined not to shrink from the discharge of.—( Hear. ) )4,1 ice of that -' lax, would be a great hardship to It was not the agricultural interest only that suffered—it was, och at y eoontr Y But Sir you may depend upon no doubt, inured ; but mechanics, artizans, and labour t,„tesstirhe rpearnot sip . ply the ' deficiency Of 5,000,000/., ers, also . were . injured by me —(Hear hear. ) _ This was not N II I a t e a"' th of this tax will occasion, without such a new opinion of his. He voted for the repeal of . the Malt Nit4th• a q . e springs of productive industry as the Tax last year, when the motion was introduced Nis cenilrtesist, or Without imposing a property by Sir William Ingliby, in a spirit of buffoonery and mockery ti, 4t dift eu cY' Ireland, and Scotland.—( Hear, hear. ) thetatha he (Lord D.) strongly deprecated. He was aware that 011 l'a t , °li sc ent will be to apply this tax to Scotland and ppeal of the Right Hon. Baronet would have great weight ro o f (h a unt a the great disproportion between with the House ; especially if, in the event of this motion say „„Par ed --Y from P so Nt the vvith the Malt Tax in these countries succeeding, the public revenue would suffer to the amount Pl e .e att e England.--( Hear.) I will venture of four and a half millions, as he ( Sir R. Peel) had stated it e ' b4 t t l, 4 l)t & will o b ey "'Pt to levy such a tax (although lam sure would. Even were that to be the consequence, he (Lord D.) Zs, as - e tlact the law if it be once enacted) but the wou ld maintain that it was no argument for the continuance s 'i s is a ,lave for this purpose, will be attended of an impolitic and unjust tax. If the present Govern- I t t o44 llor t rt , diffi k 401,, a eft''-e as the attempt ' to impose ment repealed this tax, it would become the most popu- Yapst alt er , lees general consumptien.—( Hear.) la r Government that ever existed, for no tax was 4t4'-' d o alive that has, a b n e d en a s i v a g ug g h es ) ted is to make a in reality more oppressive to the people. He could not sug 11,104„,...niloot.thhiin ~...... 6 (Hear, to do nothing gest any means to supply the deficiency that the abolition of 1 1 1 / 4 , 4 1(4 will cnog--(Great laughter.) I am afraid that this tax would necessarily .. create ; and were he able to do so, X s , ba ss , em irs :lle to the trial will, on the whole, aft er t h e war ning which the Right Honourable Baronet I. 4 th to any o d ther.- 7 ( Hear' , hear, hear.) gave him, he would assuredly refrain from the attempt. k , l,4 NOtl ° l% lt the patro°pnertthe ,Ts,econ . reading of the Increase of He wea ld sepeat ,. that no interest suffered so much from the . 4 ri d', that Y 1 ax Bill, many Honourable Mem- continuance of this tax, as the agricultural interest. It was L htt the se th an °I the e whole' they think it better to they th a t demanded the removal of this tax, and none, he Nt ea . , see s ," to !mpose a property tax, and vote contend e d, were more deserving of relief than they were. But f itoqpitielnallreadng( Hear, hear, and laughter. )* they alone would not be benefited by its . repeal. There was not a ‘ 4 , 11. ; ° l, r. ,1 . 1 e s , gg c s e P s i t ): s t 1: that air appears . already to be laying householder, journeyman, ~44,\ Hon. emight be a small . loan.— country,interestedappirneirtiaticree,moovraFor e t labourer, i ins rlehae the e , a r):, t a l Y clid not the tax could be taken off, calculated to ky i ,5.1.(10,_ lad that the Crown. Member . propose a large sons he maintained who was notthat no \i i i itet : e , ,, e , 'II should . lands might be sold, and give more general relief than that of the Malt Tax. _,' d on' k r not make jobbing leases.--( Hear.) He was fully convinced, notwithstandin g the arguments of the h) 'lot s o low that the Crown has shown itself on Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir. R. Peel, if the Malt Tax I iht il Particularly indulgent landlord.—( Hear, and were removed, pri va t e brewingswould ) be t increased. It was said eittaestly°W,° revert seriously to this last propo- that it was scarc e ly possible for private persons to brew beer, at "°l 3 O that Hon. Members will not place least for labourers. He knew the contrary, and he knew also that '~. ,` ~ ,~„~ THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 11, 1 the saving to the brewer was as nearly as possible one half. The strength at which beer was made was one bushel of Malt to twelve gallons of ale. This ale was sold at sd. per quart, which made, at Is. Bd. the gallon, one pound for the twenty gallons. Now the cost was for the bushel 7s. 7d.; for loss ls. 9d.; and the expence of brewing Is.; making on the whole 10s. 3d., leaving a saving of the difference between this and 20s. With these sentiments he would support the resolution of the Noble Lord. He would not detain the House longer, but would conclude by thanking them for the indulgence they had shown him.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. C. WOOD said he would best consult the taste of the House by abstaining from defending himself, from the im putations of factious motives thrown out by the Noble Lord who had just sat down, but he would be content with resting his de fence upon the vote he meant to give that night, in concurrence with his Majesty's Ministers.—( Cheers from the Ministerial side.) He could assure the House that in giving that vote he was not insensible to the distress that had been described as prevailing among the agricultural interests. De riving whatever income he possessed from land, he was not in sensible to the pressure which he felt, nor was he unwilling to alleviate it. If, then, he came to a different conclusion, and gave his vote against the repeal of this tax, it was not from want of sympathy for the farmers, but because he believed it would be no relief, in competition with the amount of the revenue with which they were called upon to deal. The taxes upon articles of consumption were paid mainly by the consumers. He would refer to the Right Hon. Baronet (Peel) to prove that the consumption of beer had not dimi nished in the country. It was stated the heavy clay lands were in a state of distress. It was notorious that the price of barley was only two-thirds what that of wheat ought to be. Within the last two years, and under the same land lords, whilst there had been a reduction of the rent upon wheat-growing lands, there had been an increase of the rent upon lands growing barley. There were other taxes hich pressed more heavily, which it would be much better to reduce ; for instance the taxes on raw materials, which would give extended means of employment, and thus increase wages. It was a consideration of vital importance, that there should be some substitute for this tax. He did not conceive it pos sible to suppose that a reduction to the amount of four mil lions and a half could be effected in a very short time.._ (Hear, hear.) Then there was a talk of a property tax. To that tax he was decidedly opposed, and when he recol lected the statements that had been made in 1816, he was at a loss to know what popularity the question had since acquired. He attributed it to nothing but this, that those most loud in their call for a Property Tax, (and such a tax as that alluded to by the Right Hon. Baroifet, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he hoped he should never see imposed) —he believed that those most loud in their calls for such a tax, if the proposition for a fair income tax was made, would be the first to object to it. He would not weary the House by stating what his objections to a property tax were ; a tax which could only be made equitable by inquisitorial powers, such as he hoped and was satisfied never would be carried, or if carried, maintained in this country.—( Hear.) Believing, as he did, that the relief to the agricultural interests would be but small—that the benefit to the working classes could be more advantageously extended in another way-- and being convinced that no adequate substitute could be provided for the amount of revenue they would be obliged to forego, he could not give any other vote than that which would be in accordance with the votes he had given on two former occasions. He would call upon Hon. Members, looking at the experience of the two last years, to take warning by the example then set them by an in considerate vote—when he found that out of 162 Members who voted for the motion of Sir William Ingliby, not less than seventy-two, in a short week, refused to con firm that vote, and the House was placed in the disgrace ful situation of being obliged to rescind it.--( Loud cries of " Hear," from the Ministerialists.) He would call upon Honourable Members to take warning by that circumstance and pledged though they might be to their constituents— ( Cheers from the Opposition) —to pause before they proceeded in a similar course, and place the House in a similar predica ment. He was aware that that course was difficult for the Honourable Members on the other side to pursue that night. —( Hear.) He knew that they had given pledges and promises to their constituents which it was no easy matter to forego.— ( Loud cheers.) Even in spite of the example of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, many Honourable Members would find it difficult to show the fallacy of the promises they had held out ; and that they would feel some awkardness in admitting that those Hon. Members who occupied the Treasury benches were the friends of the farmer.--( Cheers from the Treasury benches.) They would probably feel some difficulty in resigning the advantage they had obtained over his (Mr. Wood's) friends at the elections. —(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) They would find it difficult to show to the world that they were wrong. The Hon. Gentleman opposite claimed exclusive attachment to their King and to religion, but this was not for patriotic but for elective purposes. Nevertheless, now that they saw the danger of their situation, would they stand to these pledges—( Hear, hear)—and would they now hesitate to break those pledges to preserve the credit of their country ? As for those who pledged themselves to the repeal of the Malt Tax, aad who had taken office, their situation was, indeed, a sorry one. They must now desert their constituents or their colleagues. Would the Paymaster of the' Forces —the consistent advocate of the agricultural interest—would the President of the Board of Trade now desert their former prin ciples ?—( Hear.) When they looked back to the conduct of those Right Hon. Gentlemen in 1833 on the repeal of the Malt Tax, they might ex p ect t h em to do now as much for their friends as they had then done for:the late Administration; they would now put their principles aside, and be content with what they had got in the scramble.—( Hear, and laughter.) They would adopt at least that night the principles of their colleagues. Whether from that side of the House or from the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, he trusted that the Government would obtain that support which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, much to his credit, given to the late Government in 1833, on the subject of the repeal of the Malt Tax. He trusted that the decision of the House would be such as to leave unimpaired the character and national faith of the country.—( Hear.) Sir E. KNATCHBULL deemed that after what had been said, he owed it both - to himself and to his constituents, not to give a silent vote on the subject of the Malt Tax. He would show that his conduct bad been quite consistent, and that his vote of that night would be in perfect accordance with it, notwithstanding what h a d b een asserted by the Hon. Member o pp os i te . H had been asked whether he, who had formerly voted for the repeal of the Malt tax, would now vote against it ? But the Honourable Gentleman would have done well first to have inquired what his conduct had been on former occasions. In 1833 he advocated the repeal of the Malt Tax. He was then, and was still, an advocate for its repeal ; but at that time there was a considerable surplus of revenue.--( Hear and laughter from the Opposition benches.) He heard some Hon. Gentlemen say " No," but he said " Yes,"—there was then a large surplus revenue. Last year, on Sir W. Ingliby's motion, so far from voting for the repeal of the Malt Tax, he had not only not voted, but he did not take any part whatever in the discussion. He maintained, therefore, that his conduct had been, and still was, perfectly consis tent. Every one allowed that somo substitute must be found for this tax on account of its very large produce. He trusted that what he had now said would completely justify his conduct, and that the vote he would give would be perfectly consistent. He must totally object to the substitution of a property tax, and he need only remind that House of the inquisitorial nature of that tax, and of the manner in which it was taken off the very first opportunity, from its very objectionable and vexatious operation. He trusted the House would therefore come to the conclusion, that the Malt Tax could not be repealed, 'without deeply affecting the interests and credit of the country, and rendering necessary the substitution of some other tax, which would be more oppressive and objectionable. Mr. SPRING RICE said that he should not think that he was acting consistently with his former conduct and opi nions, if he hesitated to take the same stand against the repeal of the Malt Tax as he had done before. The Noble Lord and Right Hon. Gentleman opposite might indulge in attri buting factious motives to Honourable Gentlemen on that side of the House—those Noble Lords and Right Honourable Gentlemen who had called them the off-scouring of a party, and the sweepings of public offices. He would refer them to a speech made by the Right Honourable Member for Essex, And to this he would wish to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as he thought it would be useful in refresh ing his memory, and he for his own part was sure he (Mr. R.) should greatly profit by the explanation which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made. He believed he was in possession of his actual words.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, he were not, they dwelt so accurately in his memory, that he would repeat them, that he might have an opportunity of taking them down. If the Right Hon. Gentleman thought it necessary, he would furnish him with an actual copy—(Hear, hear, hear)—for he had made an extract of them. What lie would take the liberty of urgiqg in answer to the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he described the late Government, of which he had the honour to form a part, in their absence, and when they had no op portunity of a reply, as the off-scourings of a party, and the sweeping of offices, should be, that he and his friends should receive their disinterested support. And this it would be. He would also urge on the notice of the Noble Lord when he attri buted to him and his adherents factious motives. This, too, it should be borne in mind was elicited by a reply td a Noble Lord, whose speech, he thought, was characterised by none of those feelings for which he had given him credit ; but, on the contrary, as one of the most forbearing he had ever heard in that House. He thought that they ought to withstand this kind of in. ference, because, if they failed to refute the arguments which had been used on the other side of the House, he thought the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would a good chance of losing some votes.—(Cheers and laughter.) No one could be more interested than he was in a majority on this question; but if he were to be told that, in matters of politics, he was to be precluded on principle from combining his vote with those— with either the men or the party—from whom he differed on other questions, how could he or those with whom he acted come forward in support of a Government in whom they had no confidence?— (Great cheers.) He dissented from this principle, and could as he would on this occasion, honestly vote in support of the King's Ministers' The principle had been admitted on various occasions during the last Parliament; that did not, however, alter its intention in his eyes; because he found, for instance, that one motion made by the Noble Lord the mover on the present occasion, for granting relief to the agricultural interests, that almost all the Hon. Gentlemen whom they now had around them voting against it without a division, ar.d yet, for the purpose of enabling the Noble Lord to call the House factious on this occasion, that principle had Foen resorted to, and those Ho_ nourable Gentlemen were almost accused of treason.—(lllr. Baring made a motion of dissent.)—The Right Honourable Gentleman did not—no, he was aware he did not—and he was not alluding to him when he dealt with these circumstances. The Right Hon. Gentlemen said "he agreed that nothing could be mord painful to him than to vote on that side of the House, from which he dissented, but that he should be wanting in duty to himself if he allowed such a feeli:dg to interfere with his sense of public duty." Such was the principle held by the Right Hon. Gentleman, but against such a doctrine, as he had before said, he was opposed to. He knew that there Was a strong party, who were rather distrustful in giving their votes on this occasion, because those votes would be in favour of a Government of which they disapproved; and if this doctrine were to be enforced, it might be manifested here, but it was fit for nothing in itself. Nothing could be more conclusively argued in an argument which is conclusive in itself; for there was nobody: who could not understand it, for it left nothing to doubt on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) There were a few words in the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman which might have induced him to make some alteration in the vote which he now purposed giving. It was that the Right Hon. Gentleman had placed his plea for a refusal to accede to the subject on temporary grounds, because he had not had time to lay before the House his financial system, and that it might create great embarrassment to the Government. It was because his arguments applied generally, and because they in volved and decided the whole question, that he was prepared to give him his assistance. He did this, not because on former occasions he felt himself, as connected with the Government, bound to take the same course, and therefore that he wished to have an opportunity again in opposition of vindicating his consistency; but because, if he had never voted on this subject before, and if he now approached it for the first time, upon the arguments which the Right Hon. Baronet had brought forward, he could not Consent to sacrifice so large a portion of the public revenue. It would not be safe to do so even if there was a chance of finding and carrying a substitute; but was there a single individual within the walls of Parliament who could earnestly believe the possibility of doing so?—(Hear, hear.) But there was one subject which had not been yet touched upon—(hear, bear)—• and one that he really thought ought to have some weight with Hon. Gentlemen—he meant the connection of the Malt Tax with the present state of the Corn Laws. The attention of the House had been called to this subject by a petition, which prayed for the total abolition of the Malt Tax, and a great increase in the duties on Foreign Corn. The Right Hon. Bart. had touched upon the financial part of the case, and dispelled every thing that could be offered upon this occasion. The Right Hon. Baronet had called the attention of the House to the reduction that had already been effected in the article, but the Right Honourable Baronet had undervalued the extent of his own argument, because he might have carried it much further. He had only compared the present state of the duties payable on malt with the state of the duties previous to the repeal of the Beer Duty, in 1 830.—(Hear, hear.) Now he found that from the year 1804 to 1817 upon the quarter of malt the duty was no less than 31. 6s. 7d., and that for the year 1817, up to the year 1830, after the reduction of the Malt duty, till the Right Hon. Gentleman reduced the Beer Tax, the duty was 21. 12s. 7d., so that there bad already been a reduction of the duty in the year 1830. He would not go further into the argument with respect to the subject of finance. The House was called upon to reduce the taxation upon an article - on which the duty was increasing, and he felt no doubt that those Members who stood by the late Govermnent in the course they had pursued, would be ready to vote now as they did then.—(Cheers from Mr. Cobbett.)—The Hon. Member for Oldham cheered; he was sure if that Gentleman had had an opportunity of speaking, he would have agreed with him.—(Cheers.) He believed the vote was called for by public justice and duty to the country.—(Loud cheering.) The only alarm which he felt was upon the question of pledges given on the hust ings.—(Cheers.) He believed that those pledges might have been hastily and in some instances ignorantly and essentially made.—(Cheers and cries of Oh.") He would repeat that it was very possible that those pledges were given in ignorance, and that the very parties who had given them would, on consideration, recal them.—(Cheers.) Those gentlemen who aspired to the honour of being Members of Parliament had a right to know what the Malt Tax was. It might be true that on their banners the words " No Malt Tax" might be placed, and still they were in igno. ranee of the bearing of that measure.—(Cheers.) The delusion upon this subject had been great throughout the country; and for the purpose of proving that, he would ask the electors of Derby what their opinions were.—(Chesrs.) Circulars had been put forward at the late elections, to the following effect :—" Farmers of England, look to your representatives; recollect that Knatchbull out of office voted for the repeal of the Malt Tax, and when in office he voted for the continuance of it.—(Great Cheering.) Recollect that the Member for Nottingham, out of office, voted for the repeal of the Malt Tax, and when in office he voted for its continuance. Farmers of England, look to your Representatives"; let them act consistently and do as Lord Chandos has done, vote for the repeal of the Malt Tax, whether in favour or against the Ministry." He did not refer to this for the purpose of binding any Honourable Member to these opi. nions ; all he required and wished was that Honourable Members should vote according to what they considered their public duty. He would now quote an authority of a different nature—one, too, that went fde beyond any doctrine that he ever advanced. The language was used in reference to the sinking fund, and was as applicable to the question of the Malt Tax. It stated the opinions which, in 1830,, were entertained by an Hon. Gentleman, in whose judgment on matters of a commercial nature, he (Mr. R.) was willing to place the utmost reliance. The Hon. Gentleman had a petition to present to the House from the city of London, and he hoped that his language on that occasion was still on the records of the Treasury.—(Laughter.) The gentleman he alluded to was then the representative of the borough of Thetford, (Mr. Baring.) He (Mr. R.) hoped that the opinions of the Rigle., Hon. Gentleman had not been put into schedule A, along with the borough he represented —Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. B.) then said, in defence of the sinking fund, that no person but one whose political knowledge was acquired at Penenden Heath, or in the markets of Chelmsford, could hold a contrary doctrine to what he then main tained. He (Mr. R.) hoped that the words which the Hon. Gentleman then used would never be forgotten by him whether on Penenden Heath or in Chelmsford. Hehoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be able to justify his opinions to hisconstituents with hispresenteonduct. He hoped all would act on principle, and that no man, however humble, would be found who would not prefer the performance of his duty to consi derations of office, where questions of national interest and national in tegrity were involved. Mr. A. BARING said he had no intention to speak, but merely to vote, bad he not been so personally alluded to by Hon. Gentlemen op posite. He thought that the whole question was so clearly explained by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert Peel), that he did not intend to say any thing in justification of the vote he meant to give, had he not been so personally alluded to by the two Hon. Gentlemen opposite (Messrs. C. Wood and Rice)—he could not tell why.— (Laughter.) They said that he had thrown his principles overboard. If his conduct, during the long time he had been in the House, did not relieve him from the necessity of making any defence from such a charge, he at all events would not make one.—(Hear, hear.) He would assure the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that he never used the words which were attributed to him—the Hon. Member now for Southwark was in his place, and he (Mr. B.) was sure he would bear him out in his assertion—he would have been ashamed to have used such words against any one, far less against men for whom he had a high respect, not only from a market place in Essex, but from any other place. The expressions attributed to him were "the sweepings and outscourings of office ;" he had never used such words. At the election the question he was arguing was the claims of the late Ministers, exclusively to office% and the question he asked was, because the late Ministers were the promoters of Reform, therefore, they were en. titled to a monopoly of office, and he begged particularly to know how long that monopoly was to last,--was it to last so long as a single sweeper remained in the.Treasury.office, who was there when the Reform Bill was passed?—(Hear, hear, and great laughter.) It was not fair to bring forward such a trumpery charge e i of guilty so course f r :s s h t oal y g s s upon a question of so much importance. Then a s t o th e question of pledges, he had never given a pledge in his life—he never gave a pl e d ge e t it ' nt s, se . H a e n y w d a t ha gt considered him bound to take all care of their interests as h e h a d promised. a i n n pai d fi c his voteepi opinions to en be freely given t n o h thatsc constituents, was charged with being guilty, because some b anners had been exhibited at his election; but he considered that he was no more an. swerable for them than the Lord Lieutenant of Irel an d was for those i i exhibited in any company in which he might happen to be—(Cheers,) He should certainly vote in opposition to the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but there was a great difftrence in the two cases alluded to by the gen. tlemen opposite. The whole amount of the taxation was sufficient to allow of the reduction of the duty on malt, and he could not believe that the total removal of the tax would be of no benefit. If the agricul. tural interest suffered, of course every other interest of the country must uffhear.) It had b een said that the main. ne public credit had en a bl ed them to reduce taxa. tenaseb of the also.— (Hear, tion, and of . . course no one would support taxation without having that end In view —namely, the maiatenance of public credit. The present price of wheat was thirty-seven shillings per quarter, but if the returns were investigated, it woeld be found that, in proportion as barley approached to the price of coffee, foreign barley was brought into the market.—(Cries of" Hear, hear.") His constituents entertained a strong opinion upon the question of the repeal of the Malt Tax—he could not form any judgment as to what they would think of his conduct, but he had given no pledge on this question. Some Honourable Gentlemen had contrasted the votes he had given one year against those of another. All he would say to this was, that he would not value any office or emolument, if it were to be purchased at the sa. crifice in the slightest of his sincere opinion. He must at the same time say, that he came to that House to express his own opinion, not those oj others—to express the opinions of others would be nogratification to him, Mr. C. WOOD explained. Lord ASHLEY denied that he had voted last year for the repeal of the Malt Tax ; on the contrary, being out of town when the repeal was voted, he came to town for the purpose of putting it on again.—(flear, hear.) He had always voted against the repeal of the Malt Tax, and he always would. Mr. S. RICE explained, Mr. POULETT THOMPSON wished to explain on what grounds he should give the vote which he was about to record, and at the same time he must say that however inconvenient it might be to enter into a discussion upon the probable financial state of affairs, still he regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not taken that opportunity of doing that which had been done by his predecessors in office, by making a short statement of what he supposed would be the financial condition of the country.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend the late Chan. cellor of the Exchequer, in February last, and in April of the previous year, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the Home Department, when filling the same office, had occasion to do so; and he (Mr. P. Thompson) thought it would have been an advantage, not only with regard to the present discussion, but also with regard to the public interests generally, if the Right Honourable Gentleman had favoured them with some such statement.—(Hear, hear.) He was aware that such statements could not be made with accuracy at that early period, but it was quite possible and usual to make some approxi mation to them, and be trusted that the Right Honourable Gentleman would not wait till the end of the financial year, but would, pfi some early occasion in the Committee of Supply let the [louse know what the financial statement would be. The Right Honourable Gentleman, following the statement of the :a - We-Lord, had declared that the surplus would not amount to more than 2 50,0001.; he was sorry to hear that such was the case,as he had anticipated that the surplus would have been something greater.— (Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would af ford them an opportunity of ascertaining how that surplus would be laid out. With regard to the particular question before the House, 1 he begged to say that that surplus of 250,0001. only was not necessary to influence his vote. That vote he should give upon the principles laid down by the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(Hear, h ear.) But while he gave that vote upon htli'mes,ehperinciples, and with the Right Hon. Gentleman who sat beside could not entirely coincide with him in the arguments which he had advanced. The late Secretary for the Colonies (Mr. S. Rice) stated that he would have felt considerable difficulty in voting against the repeal of the Malt Tax, had the question been met in any other way than that in which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had met it. He had met the question fairly, and was opposed to the repeal of that tax, and he considered that looking at the amount of taxation which in ith the Right R c ig ou ht ntr H y on fo o r ur i a t b s penditure and e egagements, he did not conceive it could be dia. trdpi repealed eanrt s e ane gt a ea s dxti n it aee could s e Hsas present e a b r p y e, opposite that the present tax was as good as a tax ceand be—(Hear and a laugh)—evil a tax always must be, but he 0- le Ptil) B l a ie ro e n x e; Tax or any other of the tee es . tax that could be found as a substit'ate. h nc whatever which had been p7l4sosed to be He no it e b a ette e r h thai A ran l y t me time to come, that t la measure until circumstances which could 4 with ; he should give his vote for not now be foreseen re" • Right Honourable • -,ight render its repeal quite advisable. The Trade, must, he Gentleman, the President of the Board of the arguments madeasu sure, have heard with infinite pleasure but it struck ' elm P"Th" by the Right Honourable Baronet; have occir; red to him before T ni h p e so ß n) i as h strange that they should not Right Hon. Gentleman had justly stated t with reference to that tax, that the g revenue was increasing with. out. any great addition to aerate. He admitted that the price of barley w as last year lower than now ' but that arose from the larger quan tity coining into consumption and l.therefore would be only tem porarY. The argument which was most Right Honourable Gentle man, Whi o e u h dly was che s e o red ab b l y the same and by his Right Hon. Colleague, was that urged by the Hon. liremellaelpresfoelir permanent done yleaent ee k r n e to e . l wr) agreed r fuo prw, Oldham with respect to the enormous profits of the maltsters. The Right lime, Member seemed struck with the intim:me importance of that argument, Overlooking the fact that there Could not be two rates of profits, and that, ;There there was so much competi tion, these exhorbitant profits could not be kept up.—(lfeae, hear.) He would leave the Right Hun. Gentleman to reconcile those cont:Za dictions when next he made his appearance in Chelmsford market, where he would certainly be called upon to give such an explanation.—(Hear.) He did not wish to attack those gentleman who, in spite of their pledges, would vote with him. The Bight Hon. Gentleman had mistaken what had been stated by his 'Hon. Friend respecting the profit on barley. The question, in that respect, was not the price of malt to the consumer, but the profit to the farmer on the barley. But would that profit remain with the farmer if the Malt Tax were repealed, and the market for malting thrown open ? It that were the case, would not the landlord take the lion's share ?—(Hear, hear, and " No.") Hon. Gentleman might say no, but he said yes, and he maintained that the Landlords would have a right to do so. It would only be the legi. timate effect of fair competition, and no Landlord would hesitate to take as much rent as he could get—(Hear, hear, hear.) The profit would thus be taken by the Landlord, and the price and con. sumption of barley or malt would be found to have nothing to do with the question. He trusted that they would, on that occasion, lay aside all feelings of party—this he and many of his friends were ready to do, and to vote solely according to the dictates of their conscience and duty—(Loud cries of " Question.") Mr. Hume, and Sir Jemes GRAHAM here rose together, but Mr. Hume gave way. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he ought to apologize for troubling the House upon the present occasion, for his would only be another speech in addition to several unanswerable and unanswered ones which the House had already heard, and if he was anxious to interpose be tween his Right Hon. Friend who had just sat down, and the Right Hon. the President for the Board of Trade, it arose from an earnest desire to call the attention of the House to the matter really under discussion, which appeared to him of paramount importance. He was anxious, having on past vote to explain, to state his reasons for the vote lie was willing to give on the present occasion. He was doubly anxious to do so on account of what had fallen from his Noble Friend, if he might be allowed so to call him, the Member for Lincolnshire, who seconded the motion of the Noble Marquis. He stated the time of pro fession hail gone by on the part of the friends of the agricultural in terest, and that this was the hour of trial of their sincerity. Now, if there was one member of the House more than another, by feeling, by inclination, by habit, by common interest, he would add, by common suffering, more than another, identified with the owners and occupiers o land, that Member was the individual who was then addressing the Housef He had the strongest possible feelling for the sufferings of that. great interest. He had taken a part in the investigations which took place in the Session before last in 1833, into the question of that distress, and he was bound to state to the House that as far as his judgment went, no fact was ever more clearly established than that that distress was general, that it had been of long duration, that it was progressive, and that it required the attention of Govern ment. But he was bound also to state, entertaining the opinion that the agricultural interest was the foundation of the prosperity of the country, admitting the distress and accepting the challenge of his Hon. Friend, conscientiously he was of opinion that the remedy pro. posed was not the remedy which was really applicable to the evil, and that it was a remedy inconsistent with the other interests of the community. He did not wish to detain the House, by entering on the argument, which had already been exhausted by the unanswerable speech —a speech, both for argument and detail, unanswerable—which had been pronounced by the Right Hon. Bart. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). He conceived the argument to have been exhausted by that speech, anti was therefore not anxious to weary the House by attempting to re peat what had been already said in a so much more perfect mantle,. ---Jlear, hear, hear.) He should merely glance at one or two topics which had been most truly stated by Sir Robert Peel. The evidence produced before the committee, went to show that the distress arose chiefly from the peculiar situation in which heavy lands were placed, on which wheat was grown, as contrasted with the light. Now the argument of the Noble Marquis is in favour of a measure, tending directly to raise the price of the low lands which are not the species depressed in price, and to operate alto gether in favour of the light, where the distress is least felt. The Hots. Member for Lincoln had introduced as argument that the heavy lands would be relieved by the fact of wheat being grown on light. He thought his Hon. Friend was under a mistake, and had overlooked its bearing on the subject. He must recollect, if he supposes that au increased con. sumption would take place, that the surplus required has hitherto been supplied from Ireland, and that the price of the best wheat during the last autumn had been from 28s. to 325. a quarter, whilst there is a vast quantity of fine heavy land unbroken, and not brought into cultivation, and that therefore the displaced growth of wheat on the light lands would lead to an increased growth on worn lands must be altogether a misstatement. He should detain the House for a few moments longer, by exposing the fallacy of the Hon. Member for Oldham—namely, that the process of malting led to an in. crease of the barley, and this by its operation on the quan. tity of the crop, caused a rise in the relative value of the lands. He conceived there was this great difficulty—if the House repealed the duty on Malt, the effect would be materially to lower the price, and then the consumer would derive the benefit of it; but if it did not, the value of land would not increase, and the demand not increasing, barley would rise and the property would fall. If, however, that were not so, the fact stated by the President of the Board of Trade was unanswerable._ (Cheers.) He agreed with the statements of the Member for Man chester, except so far as his observations related to tenants of under leases.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If his arguments were effective the profits upon corn would be but short-lived.—(Cheers.) He would not further detain the House, seeing that his Honourable Friend the Member for Middlesex was anxious to address the House.— (Cheers and laughter.) He was, however, anxious to say, that he considered the arguments of Sir Robert Peel unanswerable, with respect to the impossibility of the reduction of 4,500,0001. ; he had no doubt that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, would not go along with that statement, and he was not surprised that he should not do so, when lie recollected the arguments he used in 1823. Ile thought the conduct of all the Governments since 1823 deserving of great praise. By their conduct the expenditure of this country had been reduced to a degree to which even the Honourable Member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) thought it impossible to bring it. They had heard, on the other hand, of a proposed Administration in which Messrs. Grote and Warburton were to form prominent Members. He mentioned the names of those Gentlemen, not out of any disrespect most certainly—both of them he respected most highly as private in. dividuals—with one, the Honourable Member for Bridport (Mr. War. burton) he might say he was on terms of friendship, but he knew their sentiments, which they never attempted to conceal— and he was obliged to say that in those sentiments he could not join.— (Hear.) He saw that the Hon. Member for Middlesex was impatient to address the House.—(Laughter.): Now, in any Government in which those Honourable Gentlemen were connected, that Honourable Member must be a prominent Member—(Cheers)—and by the notice given by him on the other evening the part he was to take was chalked out—he must be the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(Laughter.) Then there was the Honourable Member for Southwark—(Loud cries of Question, question")—who had on one occasion declared that he had taken the measure of public men, and felt that but for one thing he was in no respect their inferior. There was but one particular thing that kept him from taking office—he demanded enquiry.— (Hear, hear.) That enquiry had been had, and so far as that enquiry went, certainly he was now quite ready for taking office.—(Question, question.) He would ask, then, whether the House was of opinion that the repeal of the Malt Tax would lead to a graduated property tax, and that they would entrust it to the Honourable Gentleman he had named.—(Hear, hear.) He would appeal to the landed gentry of England if they were prepared for the consequences that would result from what must be an alterna tive of the repeal of the Malt Tax—he meant a Property Tax. On that subject he would not repeat the arguments advanced by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), but if a Property Tax be not a substitute, what other means were suggested to supply the deficiency that must take place. There must be some other method adopted—theremust be some locus standi ; it was advised that the burden of the County Rates should be removed, but on balancing the whole of the evils that must result from the removal of the Malt Tax—regarding the repeal of it as most fatal to the credit of the country—foreseeing that the consequence of the repeal will be a national evil, and knowing that the national revenue will suffer a re. duction of one.third of its amount, and that a property tax can be the only substitute, he could not hesitate as to the vote he would give. Mr. HUME here rose to address the House. Sir J. GRAHAM said lie was anticipating the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, which he appeared so anxious to make—(Laughter)—but there was a speech made by an Hon. Gentleman on the other side which he would like to hear an explanation of. It was an electioneering Speech, and as he was sometimes in the habit of recording electioneer ing Speeches, he happened to see this one amongst others. It was a Speech made by the Hon. Member for Cricklade (Col. Gordon.) On that occasion, he said such was his zeal for the Repeal of the Malt Tax, that he was known by his colleagues, by a certain mono. syllabic nickname—Malt.—(Loud laughter, and cries of " Question.") He said he had a measure in contemplation for this repeal which was cut short by the dismissal of the Melbourne Administration. He (Sir J. G.) could not see why that occurrence should prevent him from carrying that measure into effect, butt if the plans were matured, so confident was he in the abilities and industry of that Hon. Gentleman, he could not, until he heard his explanation, hesitate to give his vote in fine , other way than that which he intended. Colonel GORDON said, he had been rather unceremoniously celled out by the Hon. Baronet, who, in the outset, declared that he would not indulge in recrimination ; but the whole of his speech was little less than an attack upon one member and another. —(Hear, hear.) He was perfectly- at a loss to know how the ob servations that lionourabte Baronet made could bear upon the repeal of the Malt Tax.—(Hear.) He must confess, that knowing, as that Hon. Baronet must have known, that as he was very much indisposed, he did not expect such an attack.—(Hear and laughter.) He might follow the example of many other Hon. Members, and say that he had not read, and was not responsible for those unauthorized speeches attributed to him in the public papers, but he had no objection to say what he had said to his constituents. He told them that he had uniformly supported the repeal of the Malt Tax, and he had pestered the late Ministry until they were sick. But if he thought proper to cut a joke upon himself, no one else had a right to find fault with it. If he differed from his Noble Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if he might have been so sanguine as to think his projects might have been more favourably received than they were, he was not singular, and could point to many Members on the opposition who were equally unfortunate, where the benches might have been filled by men who would support still greater measures of reform.—(Hear.) Ile regretted that such an attack as this should have been made, and particularly the source from whence it came. Mr, HUME said the House has shown indulgence to my Hon. Friend. I hope they will show the same indulgence to me. The Right Hon. Baronet has joined the Member for Cricklade and others, and has said, that if such an Administration were formed — Sir J. GRAHAM rose to explain. He said that if such an Admi nistration were formed, they must propose a Property Tax and a repeal of the Corn Laws Mr. HUME proceeded—lt does not become the Right lion. Baronet to charge Hon. Members on this side of the:House with a breach of faith, he being himself the individual who proposed a measurC• that robbed the public.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The Right Hon. Baronet may forget that he proposed a measure to cut down the shilling to sixpence. Is he then the man to taunt Hon. Members with a breach of public faith and public honour ? Is he not the man who on a former occasion could not address his former associates without calling them a Babel Opposition, and, in short, holding them up to the country as men who did not deserve the siZnation they held, and were unworthy the attention of the House ? Did not:the Right Hon. Ba ronet propose to clip the King's money and pay half the amount 't— (Loud cheers.) When any Hon. Member made charges in that House, I would advise him to look at home.—(Loud cheers.) The Right Honourable Baronet, who held a high situation in his Majesty's councils committed a breach of public faith and honour. I I will refer to nip Clfr! publications to prove the charge—to the Right Honourable Baronet's pubfiCatiora en the currency question.— (" Oh, oh," froth scni:p Honourable Member near Sir James Graham.") I do net doubt but that sortie Hon. Members desire to hear no more on this subject, but there is a considerable number who are not of the same opinion. I stated in the year 18:22, that a reduction to the amount of eight millions might be made in the estimates. I was then laughed at as a visionary, but j have lived to see every one of the taxes I then desired to be remitiO, taken off.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I believe, Si r , that t wo ' :lions more than I anticipated hi v e been al ready take n off, b u t not 11 by four millions as I; now anticipate.— (A laugh.) I th etero ; So n ' t k- have a right to caim some share of confidence from this h e say that , s turned out as I anticipated. I shall ask of the Ho k o us t e. a" it 1", tair hearing while I point out to it how I m us- eq.!! me a On the late occasion a t i o w di r spose of • I voted for its repe e ar . situation of the t 43s tax, ant not now in to, Hon. Members opposite who have risen to explain their votes upon this question, and have claimed to be considered disinterested. It would perhaps be very unfair to doubt their disinterestedness, but I doubt it.—(Hear, hear.) When they were on that side of the House they were equally unwilling to vote fur its repeal as when they were ois this, but that is no proof to me of their disinterestedness—(Criea " Hear, hear.") The Right Hon. Baronet has regarded this question as if ithad been one in which the fanners and landlords alone were in terested. i pier entirely from the Right Hon. Baronet in the narrow and unstatesmanliko view, and one whi c h I cons i der unworthy of the ta. fonts of that Right Hon. Gentleman, because he see ms t o thi n k th a t t h ere are only two classes, the farm s :.rs and landh o ld ers, for whom we ought to legislate. It is the duty of the House to consider what ciiarges shall fall upon the oommunity at large, and what taxes should be taketo off where it is for the general benefit. The labourer who earns his daily bread is as much interested in this question as the farmer, and I doubt whether the farmer is a bit more interested than simiLtr classes by the repeal of this tax. They arc benefited by it, inasmuch as it renders the article cheaper, and on that ground I am anxious to support it I appeal to the Right Honourable Baronet opposite if I have ever stated anything likely to affect the public credit; or whether in this House or out of it, I have ever uttered a syllable likely to affect the public credit of the country. lam most anxious to support the credit of the country; and if the taking off of five times the amount of this tax was likely to affect our national honour or character, I should be the first to oppose it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) This tax has not been considered as it ought to have been. It has caused great mischief to the population of the coma. try; for I have always remarked, that in the same proportion as the price of beer has increased, and its consumption has diminished, that of spirits has augmented.—(Hear, hear.) The Right H 0... nourable Baronet has taken the consumption of beer two years ago, when it was at the highest; but if he had taken that of the two years ending in 1826, he would have found that no more malt seas then consumed than in 1780, when the population only amounted to six millions. The Right Hon. Baronet must be well aware, that if the Malt Tax were repealed, the result would be very different I consider that we are bound to give relief to the lower and middle classes, and to do every thing in our power for the improvement of their morals whenever we can do so. The reduction which took place in the duty on spirits has, on the contrary, produced the lamentable effects on the morals of the lower classes, which every one now deplores. Are Hon. Members aware that a great part of the large expense of the Excise is occasioned by and kept up for the collection of the malt tax„ and that its repeal would, thereibre, cause a great reduction in the cost of that department ? The expenseof the Excisedepartment was 1,200,0004 and I am satisfied that one-third of this expense might be saved by the repeal of the Malt Tax. This would reduce the deficiency produced by the repeal of the Malt Tax in the revenue, to 4,100,000/.—[Considerable noise here took place, upon which the Hon. Member said that this arose from some new members who were ignorant of the rules of the House] This must be so, or they would not thus misbehave themselves. In July last, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that al though 16,000,000/. of taxes had been taken off, yet the loss to the revenue had only been 3,000,000/. But I, at that time, stated and proved that this loss only amounted in reality to 1,800,0001., and 1 am sure that the effect of the repeal of the Malt Tax will lead to a similar result lam convinced that out of t he 4,100,000/. already Men tioned the actual loss to the revenue would not be wore than 2,e50,000/. It is a well known fact that in repealing one tax you always increase the consumption of some other article. There is not an instance of the repeal of a tax within the last half century in which a similar result has not occurred. Therefore I ask what is the great risk: to the Country—what is the disaster that will happen in the event of taking off this tax 1 The Noble Lord in the preceding year in bringing forward his Budget, although he had not more than 50,000/. surplus repealed taxes, exceeding the whole of that amount, trusted to what lie would get by the increased consumption of other things; and the House will recollect that last year, he stated that the increase of the revenue from other sources had exceeded his most sanguine expectations. Sir, lam bound to take the benefit of that, and to state to the House, that the sum they have to prol vide for on the praseat occasion is only 2,000,0001. But there are pen sions, diplomatic expenses, and other charges, included in the Civil List which ought to be repealed' to-morrow. There are charges for diplo. matic expenses for sending - put such men as Lord Londonderry— (Loud cheers and laughter)—expenses which now exceed 20,0001., and which ought at least to be reduces.' one half---(Hear, hear.) The pen. sions ought to be reduced in the sane manner.—(Hear, bear, and cheers.) If the Right Hon. Baronet will only Icok into the state of the Church question in Ireland, we may withdraw one million ,now expended on military establishments.—(Hear, hear, ;and cheers.) If he will do justice to America, and our Colonies eves - ywhere, he may withdraw 60,000 troops, which would be a saving of ,300,000/. to the country. In the same manner, we may reduce ;our military establish ments—take the militia, for instance, or . take the volunteers, who require about 190,000/., merely for those gentlemen to ride about on fine horses. These ought to be reduced. From those items he had read, composing twenty millions, or with ;Nine diminu. Lion the various sums of which he had admitted, the gross amount be. ing reduced to 14 millions; let 10 per cent. be deducted fra , M it, and then see what an amount that would make. I appeal to those whose objections rest, independent of their seats in this House , . that there is a material ground that these military establishments should be' re. duced. Look alone at the manner in which our military pomp is kept up-- the Staff, for instance. Why, it is extravagant beyond any other country. Take one other department, and for the truth of my state. ment I will stake my existence on the example I shall quote. (Hear, hear.) When the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham) came into office, 1 then referred to the state of our naval establishments. That Right Hon. Gentleman had reduced that department 300,000/., and it is now snore efficient than it ever was be. fore.—(Cheers.) The principal circumstance to which I intend, how. ever, to make allusion was that of the Ordnance. That establishment consists of two branches,—the Engineers and Artillery forms one, and the Stores form another; and in order so keep up the Store-house in Pall-mall, there was 73,000/, expended on this useless incumbrancc. • The expenditure is 11,000/., and in stating that, I behoove I speak within the mark. lam quite satisfied that they might tae reduced 10 a much greater extent. I know there is a great outrage ak,•ainst the reductions made in the Navy by the Right Hon. Gentleman, but I think I shall be able to prove that these deductions are not only judicious but will be productive of the best effects. I have no doubt they might be carried much further, and I call upon every man who wishes to effect reduction of taxation, and economy, to vote for the entire abolition of this tax, in order that Ministers may be obliged to retrench, and by that means save the country. Ido so for two reasons—first, be. cause his Majesty's Ministers and the speech from the Throne have held out no hope that the people shall have a reduction of taxation ; and secondly, because there is no prospect held out of any alteration in the system of taxation. It is absolutely necessary, if I may use the expression, that the industrious capital should be relieved, and that the fixed capital of the country should pay more than it now does.—(Cheers.) If it were necessary to substitute a tax, I could soon find one, but 1 do not think any substitution necessary. (Cheers.) One instance of the inequality of taxation I will refer to-1 don't blame the persons who made the laws—(A laugh"---they made them for their own interests —(Loud laughter)— those who made the laws had large properties, and they made them for their own benefit, without any regard to the million.—(Cheers.) Now, I will put the case to which I have referred. Any man, a shopkeeper for instance, with a family, who leaves, upon his death, 1001. toward' their maintenance, immediately upon his death in comes the tax. gatherer, and demands ten pounds in the shape of taxation ; while such men as the Duke of Sutherland who died the other day, leaving 250,0001. a year landed income, pay nothing. I think such men as the Dukes of Devonshire and Bedford ought to be subject to the same ordeal. I say, Sir, it is gross injustice, and if there is any one here who has been induced to alter his vote, because another tax cannot be pro vided, I say he is bound in justice to his constituents to vote for the abolition of this tax. In 1798 Mr. Pitt introduced a bill taxing :real property by descent—that bill was carried on the third reading by the casting vote of the Speaker —an immediate stop was put to that Bill because Mr. Pitt was told that if he persevered in it he would lose the support of the country gentlemen—then it woo that by the influence of the landed interest thepoor man was obliged to pay an unfair proportion of the taxes. No man ought to sit as Chancellor of the Exchequer, who could be a party to such injustice. I ask the Right lion. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) whether he' thinks there could be any difficulty in reduing the 14,420,000/., when I have given him, upon four items alone, that suns which would reduce the reduc. Lion to less than ten per cent. Seven and a half, we ara promised shall be reduced during the present session, Then, if the House will help me to reduce pensions, sinecures, and diplomatic expenses only one.half--indeed snore—for the diplomatic expenses will allow_much more, that will alonegive 1,900,000/.. and from the collection of the revenue at least 2,500,000/. Looking at these sums, why, every man with a safe conscience may vote for the abolition of this obnoxious tax.— (Loud: cheers.) I pledge myself that the u public credit will rise in proportion, if you relieve the poor and tax the rich.—.(Chen I never was, and never will be a party to rob the public creditor, and therefore, what I have suggested is as capable of being done at the reductions which I proposed and pressed in the Navy Esti mates. On that ground I will support the vote.--(Hear, hear.) There is a number of my friends from whom I differ as to the course that ought to be pursued on this occasion. They, in my opinion, take an erroneous view of the subject; they think it will be preferable to repeal other taxes to supply the deficiency that must be occasioned by the repeal of the Malt Tax. I could myself, had I the liberty, point out other taxes that might be more easily repealed. The Malt Tax is in principle a bad tax, because if falls upon the industry of people who are most unable to near it entreat those gentlemen not to vote against the motion from any hopes thoy May entertain of the Right Hon. Baronet bringing forward meas'urcs of relief to the agricultural interest. A snore erroneous idea could ao: be entertained, for they might not expect any measures of economy f r om that source.—(Louct cries of " Ouestion" followed the conclusion of the Hon. Gentleman's s pe ec h ) Mr. PEASE ,begged to assure the House he would trouble them with a very few words', far he had the conscience left not to do any thing that would tend to iinjure the national credit, which, he believed, would be the consequence at the success of the present motion. He did not consider that the repel. I of the Malt Tax would b e o f no serv i ce whatever to his constituents—he said—whatever; because the habits of his constituents' were such as to preclude them from receiving any advantage fi - o1: 1 the repeal of the Malt Tax.—(Loud laughter.) A more happy, healthy, or better-looking population, he had never seen.—(Laughter.; Under these circumstances, he would not vote for the repeal of this tax, because he was never asked to do so. — (Hear.) lie was always in favour of a property tax. He would not enter then into the merits of the question, nor would he express any sentiments as W the speeches which Hon. Gentlemen made on the hustings ; but he would give his vote against the motion, satisfied that he would best discharge his duty to his constituents, and best consult the interests of the country.—(Question.) Mr. GRO'l said he would detain the House b:it a few minutes, nor would he have troubled the House at all, had 12e not been spe cifically alluded to by the Honourable Gentleman opposite. (Hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman had thought prow to revile a pledge given by the Honourable Member for Derbyshire„lnd to con nect his name with a probable Ministry, which he deeply regretted, as such an association was as much above his ambition, as it was foreign to his feelings and pursuits.—(Hear, hear, hear.) His Honourable rr;end had appointed him to a situation in such a possible minisLry ; but most assuredly such a ministry would not be united on the question of the Malt Tax, for he held a very different opinion fl'om the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and must vote against the motion of the Noble Marquis.—(Hear.) He had given a similar vote before, and he saw no roson to alter it. The repeal of the Malt Tax was not the kind of reductim: he should support, and he was glad to find that the Right Hon. Baronet had grappled with the agricultural fallacies that had been put forth. It was said that the repeal of the Malt Tax would enable the labourers to brew their own beer, or to board at the table of the farmer; but both these phenomena were inconsistent with the present state of society.--( hear, hear, hear.) He thanked the House for hearing those few remarks which he had oftered, and felt it his ditty to signify to the House that he did not agree with the Hon. Member for Middlesex.—(Hear, hear.) Though at the same time he did concur with that Hon. Gentleman in many of his wen. timents and propositions, which he should, at any time he brought them forward, be most happy to support. Mr. H. FLEETWOOD said, one argument against the present motion was, it was brought forward at an improper time, and ought to have been kept back till after the Budget. He thought it as much the duty of the representatives of the people to declare what taxes they wished taken oft: as it was of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state the current expenses of the year. He therefore thought that the proper time to bring forward this motion was before the introduction of the Budget. The Hon: Member made some other observations, which were inaudible from the conflicted cries of " Question" and " Divide." He concluded by saying, that though he felt friendly to the present Administration, he would support the motion of the Noble Lord (Chandos.) Sir ROGER GREISLY said he wished to reply to the observations of the Hon, Member opposite relative to those Members who had * i e .~