The Sun. — London, England, 1852-05-25 00:00:00

Po3r-law Board did was simply to linos to those parishes rules and regulations for tho relief of the poor, reserving at the same time that power over the local officers which was necessary to their very indepen dence, but not venturing to break throu*.h the c•oastita tion established under those local acts. If th 3 Poor-law Board was to exempt places under local Acts from their r ules and regulations, under what pretence could that Beard be maintained at all for toe supervision of the board s of guardians? For the reasons he hail stated he tr usted the House would not assent to the motion of the N ehle Lord, seeing that the Noble Lord had made out no case in support of it. air G. PECHELL said the Right Honourable Gen tleman (Sir J. Trollope) had attempted to throw doubts Upon the stat ements o f t h e N o b le Lord, and had rea d letters from certain discontented persons, whom he called the" parish," and then he said the parishes in question were demanded to be relieved from the control of the vestry. But the Ri g ht H on . G ent l eman h a d failed to show anything like discontent among the in habitants of those parishes with the existing mode of Government. The conduct pursued by the .Right H onourable Gentl eman i n re f erence to t hi s question Was The Right Hon. Gentleman had re- Plied to the Noble Lord just as if the Noble Lord had made the motion before the House for party purposes. Nothing could be more unfair than that, for the Noble Lord, I . la (Sir George Pechell) and those with whom they acted, had be en for a length of time pressing upon di ff erent Governments to give boards of guardians that control over their expenditure which they ought to hive; and be contended that from 1837 to March, 1852, with one exception, no motion had been made in that House in regard to the management of the poor under local Acts, With a view merely to embarrass the Government fur the time being. Ho warned the Right lion. Barone t that if theelystem of interference with towns under the opera tion of local Acts was continued, it would cause such an amount of remonstrance, that sooner or latter redress would be inevitable. It was within his own knowledge that in the parish of Alveratoke, although it had been sho wn by the Poor-law Inspectors themselves that it was exceedingly well managed, the Poor-law Beard had inflicted on that pariah such rules and regulations that it required a lawyer and a special pleader to understand them. Having called the attention of the House to the various reports on the subject, he trusted that the motion of the Noble Lord would he successful, and he would only propose to add to it such words as would exempt from the operation of the Commnsioners those parishes Which were incorporated by the 22d Geo. 111., c. 33. He trusted that, at least, he should receive such an amount of support from Hon. Members as would induce the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to stay the hands of the Poor-law Commissioners with respect to these incorporated parishes. Mr. BAINES said that, as he believed the amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Marylebone to be su bstantially that the House should now declare that henceforth the jurisdiction of the Poor-law Commis. stoners should not extend to any parish which was un der the management of a board of guardians formed Un der a loc a l A ct , h e s h ou ld f ee l i t h is d u ty to oppose the motion. There could be no doubt whatever but that to the general Poor-law Amendment Act the Legisla ture intended that the powers of the Poor-law Commis °loners should extend to parishes governed by local . A.cls. T hese powers consisted in the general regulation of paid management of workhouses, and in the appointment "` Paid officers for the better relief of the poor, the bo ard at the same time possessing the power of direct ing the tenure by which such officers should hold th eir office, and u p on ever y occas i on upon which the Poor -law Bill had been before Parliament these P e tra had b een preserve d to t h e C omm i ss i oners . "" s ystear, hear.) I n or d er t o p reserve uniformity in th e management of workhouses, as well as for the se curity of the officers, it was absolutely necessary that Such powers should exist. But at the same time there well n othing in the se p owers w hi c h cou ld be considered °PPosed to the boards of guardians; on the contrary, be had considered during the whole of the time that he had held office, that his duties were rather to co-ope rate with than t o controul the boards of guard i ans. I n many instanc es , h owever, he had found that the com plaints of the poor-law officers had originated in mere party feuds, or in an attempt t o re d uce the salaries of le officers below the amount which he thought requisite to •order to seeure efficiency. He behaved that he had on several occasions prevented by his interference many Worthy men from losing their situations in consequence of these attempts on the part of boards of guardians. Daring the time he had held of f ice, he had never inter fered in parishes under local acts, unless at the desire cf the guardians themselves, or in cases where he had reason to believe, upon clear and satisfactory evidence, that there were abuses in the management of the Parish, to which it was his duty to apply such re. Tedy as the law afforded him the means o f doing. the Member for Brighton threw out against hi m what :) deemed a personal imputation. He read to the I , H ouse a list of pl aces w ith which, he said, th e H ouse had not interfered so as to abolish their local control, and he laid speoial stress on the word " Hull." Now What were the facts? He had not been two years in (Ade when he was informed that the administration of the Poor-l aw was essentially defect i ve i n H u ll ; t h at two „ e4 ha had t a k en p l ace there ow i ng to t h e want o f pro ;;e,r precaution . Not w i t h s t an di n g the representations ' j ell were made and urged upon him, he declared his tb tit i e ntion of p u t t i ng i n force the conso lid ate d wor kh ouse s t and persbv ere d i n t h at i ntent i on — an d w h a t was . e Cot.Bequence? Why, that all parties now agreed ot it was the best thing which could have happened for . e the m. - -(Hear, hear.) It his adnitnistvation lied not iZbooehonest, he had no claim to recommend him.— eee ., . r s-) The second ground on which he rested his There to the telotien of his Noble Friend was this. geeswere in England 375 parishes, whose affairs ..7_t regulated by directors, under local Acts. The coat Majority of these parishes had been long and i ' c ug . ago under the regulation of the Poor law 'onward. A very small number still regulated their LI affairs. In a great many cases this had been done u l Pon the p e titi on of the guardians themselves. In other c w :es Parli ament had interfered because grave abuses What would und er the notice of the Poor-law Board. Iyhet would be the effect then of adopting this resolu tion-11 That it m a ke . . be an instruction to the Committee to the _ provision for exempting from the jurisdiction of ‘.„ Poor - law Commission any pariah , the management e `__ th e poor whereof is reeulated by a board of directors 1-Iguardians, under a local Act or local Acts of Parlia ment?"fe.c It would be not only to protect parishes from a rentercerence; but it would be to undo all that has . bee n ni . e done,. and throw upon these parishes the sole adult coata's anon of the poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) Another b o „,, ° .rt why it was impossible he could support this pro ', l , Liott was this: —If these parishes governed by local VLS were to be exempted, he should be glad to know on Oder other grounds Parliament could maintain a jurisdiction in other boards of guardians? The highest noblemen Gethe land acted as ch a i rmen i n t h e s i tt i ngs of t h e b oar d s n tl uardia... Th e D u k e o f -Richmond, the Right Hon. e rnan the Sec retary o f State for the Colonies, as tras a host of other distinguished persons, took part i age administr a ti on o f t h e law in their respective dis inu-`fe, and if they. did notefind it a humiliation to put theforce the consolidated rules, he did not see how gentlemen of" St. Pancras or Marylebone could hear,) Captain PECHE LL assured the Right Hon. Gentle iftiteti that he did not mean any i mputation whatever, and he laid stress upon the word Hull, it was merely to attract his attention, he being Member for that town. ° !e. On the contrary, had endeavoured to pay him the highest compliment, and his regret was that he had not remained longer in office. Mr. L A.SLETT thanked the Noble Lord for having brought the subject under the notice of the House. He had and he someconside experience of the wor ki ng o f t h e p oor l aw , Lc that some amendment in the l aw was necessary. Mr. J. A. SMITH believed that the poor-law had effected great improvements; but at the same time he Must express considerable regret at the manner in which the monon of the oble Lor Sipe MebI e m er for Al ary bo ne h a d b e en receNived. It ppeared to him that the eight to understand on what principle this public had a I nterference complained of took place. In the case of nor was o t htecon Chichesterd u t(e t hadth e C hichester, Which he represented, the Poor -law Board i nterfered; he did not object, Board complained of. The guardians carried on their basiness without any t them. As thi complaints what - did being urged egains- a wa s go , h e when parishes were what principle interference had takes 'I not know on ere I s 7; 11 , e • He wanted to know why, - "it exempt, Chichester should been t h e a s ve monyto excluded. tthee a lity Mr. HUME w illingly bore ti Uu d fairness which characterised the administration of th the parish of Haryle t: Right Hon. Gentleman, of which there never had been C o Y complaint. With regard to had crept in , and abuses , he admitted their affairs welte not in that state he `ourd wish them to be; abuses h e k "mg time to correct. Wlthh arredgahrclotoinSteartPeraend- Z 4 ' me understood the poor-law 4th the employment of their own o the board of guardians of the Part employed of by that one the ser°•vshanht9a.cl cAomnelatjoortihtye - er n was unworthyof holding office, o had inter tinkled. a public servaannt.s be Wits dis. compel his re-inett feted d t he general. board sitting In Co mmon Uni on. applied for a mandamus to nea t e nse a t alarm and was. he considered, contrary to throu calculated to excite discontent thoot wouldthe Country. He hoped, to, and that the Right this instruction to be agreed a clause, ox therefore, the House ne P t ioi ' tier' Gentleman would introdu ce board of the until a mai() c ? Parishes from the powers Sir J. TZT.. r of the ratepayers required it. 1 , 8 '. 4 °11 e, of s t , p' 4 CIPE said neither in the case Chichester the Ord pa of Marylebone, or of had been S i gned era beeie signed by him; they of.Alver- Si r 137tinta been in office. poor Bill reminded the House that when the tion s of th reatest per - " v Bill Wa Members be renewed the g .ern ment e Hon. who now sat upon the Go _ a e_ benches not only spoke but voted in favour of rF He e 1 0 i Bei: e io d n it th w a a t .s the th b e oard should cease . and determine. moved tlaaLthe present Judge-Advocate who Bill be read a . Months. second time that day three w ould not jahe, therefore , had hoped that this amendment of t h e Q, Pancras been opposed. The board of guardians ()fa n rancras union desired to dismiss one of their officers but s• The general board said they might p Ler their obtaini they should not dismiss them without first etitionecl th e 1 „,,. ng their consent; and the board now p the L e a l:s um to be excluded from the operation of ge- Peor-law. The Strand Union was an instance of vernmentcontrol h • prevented the most hor . not having rible d Dg i e n disgusting occurrences which could take place eoY e Public establishment. With regard to Mary les Se r o,fthe hody was stamped as a political body by the this one of th e M em b ers of t h e G overn ment. It was a Mar le way —there was no returning officer in y : Wer e; the returning officer was the churchwarden; there t t h ere two churchwardens; one was elected by the vestry, or l z .e other by the Crown. Lord Portman succeeded Lord ''':ecYon, and continued in the office under several A m - Matrations; but the moment the Noble Lord, the pre sent Commissi oner of Works, found-there wags vaettlloYl which occurred annually, that moment Lard Portman was summarily di , mitsed; no ceinnalinicati:i3 V 4 ,33 ms , la to him; Levi Portman was in the cauntry, arid on his return be found a notie* , on his table, that he had been superseded by the Government; there was not one word of explanation, and the political partisan of the Govern ment in the perish was instituted in his stead. The parishes complained that they were oat allowed to ma tia.ge their own affairs, and that, mandamuses wore ap plied for to ccerce th,m. He thotht, under th? cir cumstances, that the motion of his Noble Frimld was a very fair one, and he hoped ho would press it to a di vision. —(bear.) Mr. JACOB BELL vindicated the conduct of the parish of Marylebone at some length, and contended that the aspersions which had been cast upon them had been undoserved. Mr. HENLEY said that the House hod nothing to do with the management, good or bad, of the Mary lebone vestry. The only question before the House was whether the authority of the Poor law B, , ard ought to be ex tended to parishes having local Acts. He had heard no reason why the ex9mptions should he continued, and he should, therefore, vote against the proposal of the Noble Lord. Mr. WAKLEY saw no reason why a continuance Act should be now introduced, inasinuoa as the Poor-law Board would not expire till next year. What was wanted was a poor-law court, with a poor-law judPt where applications from different parishes could he heard and decided in public, and then in a short time you would have a code of laws for your guidance. He trusted that the Government would relinquish this Bill. Mr. W. WILLIAMS hop2cl that the Right Honour able Baronet opposite would consent to withdraw all in terference with parishes and their affairs, or that the House would support the motion of the Noble Lord (Lord Dudley Stuart). L or d that Effß I h N e Gs should dlook would lvdesruyg carefully fu to l the y jate Rightthe stHon.ate Baronet of the metropolitan workhous es, in some.. of which u there had been of late a very alarming amount of mor tality. He (Lord Ebrington) would give his support to the Bill. The Marquis of GRANBY was quite tired of hearing the uncontradicted statements of Hon. Members respect ing the universal employment of the lower orders.—(Oh, oh, and Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member fur Finsbury said that there was less pressure in the workhouses is consequence of the increased employment, but could the same be said of some parts of Ireland, where they were told the assistance of the soldiery was required to main tain order? The Honourable Member for Montrose had told them the other evening that there were thousands of unemployed persons in Scotland who ought to be sent to Australia, and to-morrow night there was to be a ball in London in aid of those who were out of em ployment in this city. With these facts before him, be confessed that he was tired of bearing it asserted it there were no persons out of employment.—(Hear.) Lord R. GROSVENOR was one of those who had voted for the original Bill. He should be sorry that all central power should now be-withdrawn, for he thought that the poor would suffer by it. It appeared there was a doubt with regard to the law. This might be an instrur went of very great torture to the rote payers. Therefore he would vote that an amendment should be made. Sir DE LACY EVANS offered a few observations in favour of his amendment, which, however, could not be moved. He said that to leave the nomination of the officers in the vestry, and the removal of them not in the vestry, would be to take from the vestry at! its autho rity together. If subordinate officers in the army could say to their superior that his orders were not legal, and that their legality must be shown before they were com plied with, they coul i not get on. And this was not all for if the argurn.nts which he opposed were good, the whole of the vestries should be put an end to, and com plete centralization established. At any rate, it was quite clear that the two systems could nut go together. Lord DUDLEY STUART explained that he did not mean anything beyond making those parishes which had local Acts independent of the Poor-law Board. The House then divided, when the numbers were— Ayes ... .. 33 Noes ... ... 112 M , ,j,)rity The House then resolved itself into a Committee, Mr BERNAL in the chair. • On clause 1 being proposed, Lori DUDLEY STUART moved that the blank be filled up with the words " fifty-three" instead of fifty four," his object Laing to limit the duration of the Bill to one year. Mr. SOTHERON thought it would be much better to extend the time to five years, the period for which thetriginal Bill was passed, and gave notice of his intention to move the insertion of words to that ,ffeet. After a few words from Mr. Bouverie, Mr. Abel Smith, and Sir J. Trollope, The Committee divided on the p?oposition that the blank be filled up with the words "fifty - -four." For the amendment ... 26 Against it .. BLjority for " fifty-four" ... 72 ... -46 On our return to the'gallery, Mr. J. A. S Yfl ra complained of certain new regula ions which bstd been thrust upon the Chichester board of guardians since the Right Hon, Gmtleman opposite came into office. Sir JOHN TROLLOPE explained that these regula tions, though sent out by him, had been prepared by his predecessor. The Bill then went through C ,mmittee. Sir BENJAMIN HALL wished to ask the lion. Member for Wiltshire whether he iffierided to take any other opportunity of moving that the Poor-law Bill to continued for five years? Mr. SOTHERUN took that opportunity of giving nc tice that, on the report being brought up, ho would move that tho Bill be continued for five yeari. Sir BENJ AMIN HALL said ho would give such a proposition all the opposition in his power, and hopei the matter would be brought on at a period of the evening when it could be fuliy discussed. Mr. %VAL rER also would oppose that proposition. If the Bill was to be continued from time to time the oftener it was brought und e r revision the better. The House then resumed; the report to be brought up on Thursday. The Turnpike Trusts Arrangements Bill pa3std through Committee The Differential Dues Bill was read a third time and passed. On the question that the Passengers' Act Amendment Bill be further considered, Mr. CARDWELL reminded the Right Hon. Colonial Secretary that his Hon. Friend the Member for South Lancashire and himself had a clause to bring forward relating to the passenger-fee levied on emigrant vessels. He did not complai❑ of the lateness of the hour (it was now a quarter past one o'clock), but the debate wou!cl occupy some time; however, if inc Right Hon. Gentle man wished to go on he (Mr. Cardwell) was ready. Sir JOHN FAKING FON thought the debate might go on; he did pot think it would occupy much time. Mr. WILLIAM BROWN hoped the consideration of the Bill would be postponed. He expected great Sym pathy from Hon. Members opposite, as his clause would toisome extent relieve the shipping interest, 'but the House was very thin at present, and most of the Members he referred to were absent. The Bill was then postponed to Thursday next. The Committee on the Grand Juries (Metropolitan Districts) Bill, was postponed to Friday next, after some remarks from Mr. Stuart Wortley, ohjLcting that the B:11 went too far, and suggesting that it would be better_ to retain the power of summoning grand juries with limited powers. The Ecclesiastical Courts (Criminal Jurisdiction) Bill passed through Committee. The Inland Revenue Office. Bill, the Hereditary Casual Revenues in the Colonies Bill, the Excise Summary Pro ceedings Bill, and the Bishopric of Quebec Bill were severally read a second time and ordered to ba com- mitttd. The Masters' Act Extension Bill was committed pro forma in order to ba re-committed on Friday next. The Nisi Prius Officers (Deficiency of Fees, &e.) Bill passed thro,;eh Committee. Mr. STAFFORD moved for, and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act 11 Geo. IV., c. 20. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON moved for, and obtained leave to bring hi a Mt to alter end amend c.rtain Acta relating to the Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues of the Crown. Trio House then adjourned at 20 minutes before Two o'clock. • HOUSE OF LORDS, May 24. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the wOa sack at Five o'clock. Lord Jesse Oldfield MR COBBETT'S CASE. CAMPBELL presented a petition from Mr. pauper is, ooitupltaiuihg of the present state of the law with andregard to actions brought in forma writs of habeas corpus, and praying for Mr. Oldfield statecrlrilealteration in Wu law. gloat well. knownt ut ho had been a party to the ori 111r. Cubbett had e proceedings en in consequence of which prison, and th at since that committed to the Queen's Bench October, 1839—ab ove 100 time—th° commencement of abeas corpus had been moved for by M r . cubizita of h actions brought against Mr.himbyttanB d a vast number of paveris, and at the pres en t time Cobbett, all in forma the re were now pend ing no less than seven actions, also brought against him by Mr. Cobbett. Attor a taw words from th e LORD CHANCELLOR, Lord CA ." P BELL moved for a return of the number of writs of habeas corpus moved for by Mr. Cobbott since ',l3e Ist October, 1839. The return was agreed to. PETITIONS. . ' The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a p e ti t i on from builders and others inth i emetrupolis, prayi ng f or the enfranchisement ot_copyh ds The Ar hbishop Of CANTERBURY presented a .' p e tition agai Dit the Dila) n , ti , - th grant. Oa them , ric e of Lord COLCHEST ER, the Stock in time and paye d. • Trade Bill was read a third NOBLE Lem) the Highway ' of the same On them utton ime and passed. Ewes 1.1111 a , ,s read a third t the report on the i On the motion for the brio in up Comm tii Law Procedure 13111, rumour had gone Lord LYN JHURST said that a Government, abroad that this Bill was distasteful t e ch e f it in Com and that they had retarded the pr ( 'g rB , ° and Learnedra ltt,te. Ho wuuld app=alto the Noble he care, and Lords • oppositewhethtr this was 1 whether, in fact, th e y h a d no t done all they could to facilitate its progress. In fact, had it not been owing to the unfortunate illbe , s of the Noble and Learned Lord on t h e W oo l s ack the Bill would long ago have passed through this House. The Bill itself was calculated t o b e o f great service to the public, and would do awa y with a great number of technicalities which at present very much impeded the duo administration of justice. The Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to quote a number of instances in which t the ends of justice had been defeated by the court hay ' jet?, pnehed the technicalities ef the law to a most absurd I exteetee Lord CHAN WORM concurred in the extreme im portance of the measure. Tire report was then received, and the Bill was or dered to be read a third time on Thursday next. PROPERTY-TAX CONTINUANCE BILL. Tee Earl of DERBY, in moving the second reading of the abeve Bill, * spoke as follows:—My Lords, although it has been suggeited by a Noble Friend of mine that it would be desirable to read the Property Tax Continuance Bill merely pro forma, with a view of postponing the discussion .upon it in going into Committee, I think under the peculiar circumstances in which we are placed as regards public basi ne4s such a course would be attended with inconvenience to Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House, as well as to some on the Ministerial side It is important that this Bill , should receive the Royal assent with as little delay as possi ble. I therefore submit to your Lordships the proposition that you will now read a second time the Bill for the contin uance of the property and income-tax for one year longer. In bringing tbis subject before your Lordships it will not of course be expected that I should go into any details as to the state of the revenue and expenditure of the country, or as to the particular reasons which have induced the Government to propose the re. ewal of this tax. Your Lord ships must be well aware that at the commencement of the eresent session, upon the change of the Government, there was a general understanding on the part of this as well as the other House of Parliament - that with the exception of such measures as were not likely to lead to serious differences of opinion, no business was to be brought forward by her Majesty's Ministers. Her Majesty's Government have even declared that in the present session of Parliament it was not their intention to introduce any measure that would be likely to involve any serious conflict of opinions, and more especially in regard to que-tions affecting the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) There was, my Lords, tore than this understanding—there was a distinct declaration that no measure materially affecting the commercial or fiscal condi tion of the country would be introduced into Parliament this session. The question, then; for the consideration of her al ejestv's Government, was not whether any alteration could 'be made in the fiscal or commercial policy of the country, or whether they could make such alter tions in the revenue and expenditure of the country as might enable them to dispense with a tax of this character, the otjections to which he should be the last man to undervalue.—(Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, the question was, whether any alteration of the tax itself, whether by any new arrangement of the system under which it was levied, it would be possible for us to dispense with either the whole er any portion of it. Now, I think a single word will satisfy your Lordships that, even if it had been desired wholly to dispense with this tax, which was levied originally for a temporary purpose, and which I still hope may be looked upon as temporary, but :is merely continued from year to year to meet the pressing necessity of the case—l think your Lordships will agree with me, that unless we feel ourselves in a position for making some general or final arrangement in respect to the whole system of taxation, it would be inexpedient to continue the whole or any - portion' of the 'tax, at , least for the present.—(Hear, hear.) But practically speak ing we had no alternative placed before us; for though there is a surplus of income over the expenditure of last 3 ear —yet as an important alteration in the taxation of the country had taken place, the effect of which did not come into full operation until the present year—it was difficult to say what the result of such alteration would be upon the revenue of the country. If the income tax had been alto gether taken off in the course of this year, we may reason ably calculate that at the close of the - financial year, instead of this surplus, there would be a deficiency of income to the amount of 2,500,0001. And by the loss of the remaining half of the income tax that would fall npon the following year, the I esult of our not renewing it wouldbe this—that in the year of 1853 we would find ourselves in a deficiency to the amount of about 5,000,000/.—(Hear.) The statement which my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exche quer submitted to the House of Commons a few evenings ago went to show that the result of obtaining the whole tax, supposing that no alteration had been made in the receipts, would be, on the best calculations, to give a surplus of 450,000/. upon the revenue of this year. This is a surplus which I think is not more than is absolutely necessary to meet the probable exigencies of-the State, and the call that may be made on us for increased expenditure. Nor is it more than is necessary for us to keep as a balance in hand for the maintenance of public business.—(Hear, hear.) Under these circum - ta n ces , feeling ourselves bound by the stipulation which we have entered into—not to introduce, in the present session, any material alteration into our financial or fiscal regulations—and I will also fairly admit, not having th e opportunity of considering or of proposing to Parliament any matured plan for the arrangement of our fiscal affairs, though we should even consider such to be ultimately expe dient—her Majesty's Government feel that they have no al ternative, while desirous to retain a surplus revenue, and having a due regard to the maintenance of public faith and public security—they, I say, feel that they have no alternative than to make that proposition which I now sub mit to your Lordships, namely, to continue without alteration or amendment the existing property tax for another year, in order to afford us in the interval the fullest opportunity of considering whether it will be prac ticable to make any alteration in the financial system of the country, and to dispense with the whole or any portion of this tax.— (Hear, hear.) At the same time I should be de ceiving your Lordships--I should not, I thi n k, b e act i ng a frank or honest part if I were to hold out any very sanguine expectations that this would be the last occasion upon which I should deem it necessary to submit to this House a propo sition for the renewal of the tax. While I. say this, my Lords, I cannot but admit the strength of the arguments that are urged for the removal or modification of the tax, because I think, not only that it is one which ought not to b 3 resorted to except for the purposes of war, and should not be looked upon as part of the ordinary resources of the country, bat also because, from the best considerations that I have been able to give it, and from the considerations given to it by successive C , mmittees of the other House of Parliament, I believe the difficulties are almost insuperable which stand in the way of diminishing its injustice and inequality (Hear.) With that impression, I should be glad if the present state of the revenue, or looking forward for a year or two, I should, I say, be happy if the revenue were in such a state as would enable nee to hold out expectations of the reduction or the abolition of this tax. But I think the course which the Government is taking, of proposing to continue it for the pre sent year, is that which affords to Parliament the fairest and best opportunity of considering the practicability in a future session of Parliament of its entire abolition or reduction ; and I, for one, am willing to rest the proposition for the con tinuance of the tax for another year simply upon the ques tion of necessity, for the purpose of maintaining the public credit.— ( Hear, hear.) If it can be shown in any future session that the credit of the country can be maintained, and that our finances can be upheld with due consideration for the expenditure of the country, I shall be the first to rejoice at the abolition of the tax. And if it should fall to the lot of the Government of which I a m a member to submit to Par liament a proposition for the repeal, or even for the reduc tion of a tax which in its operation I believe to be not only unpopular, but justly so, no one rill be more rejoiced at having such a duty to discharge. Under the circumstances then on which we stand—with the under standing that we have a prospect at no distant period that the policy of this tax will be duly considered, as well as our commercial and financial policy generally, I trust that your Lordships will not only give your consent to continuance of placed, you will be also of opin ion that the the second reading, but in the p osition in which we are of this tax for a single year is the only course it is possible for her Majesty's Government under the circumstances to take. I have, therefore, to move your Lordships that the upon the question. The Duke of NEWCASTLE was ex remel y sorry to tres- Property Tax Continuance Bill be read a second time. re Fe was the ass upon their Lordshi for a short time before they came to a final decision more anxious to do so because it was not, his intention to e f elt it oppose the second reading; on the cont rar y ehe would give the measure his cordial assent. Nevert heless, desirable, in the present state of the country, that there should be a discussiou upon the financial affairs of the country. He would remind their Lordships of th e circum stances under which this tax originated, and was continued by successive Governments. .The Noble Earl would forgive him for referring to a statement which he made last year in respect to this subject. The Noble Earl's statement on the present occasion as to this tax being originally pro posed as a temporary measure, was the truth, but it was not the whole truth. The tax was originally p r oposed, not only for the purpose of meeting a temporary deficiency, but also of enabling the Government to deal wi th the other revenues of the State in such a manner as would en able them to dispense with it as a permanent tax. In 1840, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer of that day, being in a deficiency, recommended, as an experiment, that 10 per cent-should be added to the direct taxes of the country, and 5 per cent. to the indirect taxes. What was the result? The 10 per cent.' brought in the whole amount of the tax contemplated; but the 5 per cent. returned something less than 2 per cent. upon the calculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The fact was thus proved that the taxes upon articles of con sumption had reached their utmost limits. It was therefore' necessary, with a view to their reduction, that in the mean while an income-tax should be reimposed. That wainthe policy of the late Sir Robert Peel in 1842. On the 19th of May, the Noble Earl, in reply to. the Noble-Marquis - the then President of the Council, said he•was prepared to vote for the abolition of the property-tax, as such a system of taxation was calculated to bring ruin on the country. He system of taxation (the Noble Duke) conte n d ed that,all the evidence they co uld obtain went to show that this had conduced considerably to the prosperity of the coun try. As one of the strongest .proofs of such prosperity, he need only refer to the late speech - of the Chancellor of the' Exchequer. Within the last ten years there had been a remission of taxation amounting to about 12,000,000/., not withstanding which the revenue of the country was in as prosperous a state as ever it was before such remission, and the comforts and happiness of the people had• been consi derably increased. Of coffee, in 1841 there were 28,500,00 0 1 1 05. consumed, while in' the last year the quan tity was 32,500,0001b5. Tea, in 1841 was 36,500,00101b5., whereas in 1851 it rose to 54,000,00 , a5. The consump tion of sugar in 1841 was 4,000;000 cwts.; in 1851 it was 6,100,000. Cocoa, in 1811, was 2,000,000 cwt.; whereas in 1851 it rose to nearly 3,000,000 cwt. Our exports increased' within the time more than 50 per cent., and our imports more than 70 per cent. What, however, was the case with America? Why, the last speech of the President of the United States contained a paragraph lamenting the large exports of specie, which were gradually leaving the coffers, of the country ; while, on the contrary, the specie in the coffers of this country had increased tremendously within the last few years. It might be said that the discovery of the 'gold mines in California bad led to such a result. Why, this was a face that told altogether against the Noble Lord's argu ments, and rendered a return to protection absolutely impos sible. He had listened to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's admissions as to -the result of their legislation in reference incr e eas e e q i u n al t l h y e app .to sugar with the greatest. pleasure, because it was a increase in flo triumphant proof of the success of such legislation. The advantages wer gained from the repeal of the navigation-laws Europa muproorptcanacned.shipping,ren t. bTudte therer e ha s has not be s o n n a l y correspondingbe en a l a g e number i of seamen employed. Besides that' the transit traCl ' e Some a s e z l - g t r h o e w e fi b u i grownup t •t p o o r a t s p o c f si t t h i oen country,of the g s r u e c a h t e a st s Amethriscae,ffand in spite of the declamation s of had been favourable Hull, would soon become eetrepote of intercourse between to the the repeal of the navigation lawsare now built cheaper and better; " G. F. Young," were well aware. Ano ther interest. Vessels yachting r em than they bad been, as Noble fond ort o a f nt point firas the way in which the Lords and whoa mistwe r e m important agricultural interest had been affected by the repeal or the Let their L g o r r e d a s t h corn-laws. Putting aside the effe u ct p s on upz the landlords and bulk of the m ir k go, not farmers, population what f had the been eou the try ere effect persuaded th a ey n, merely into the markets of market towns on' and converse with those who bought and sold there, market days, amo ng the people; let them follow• the members of Ile a : go House in those domiciliary visits which they would S t o ller h a ve to- pay.—(A laugh)— and hoewas would soon find the altered position of the inhabitants. Glasgow and Bir min g ham, Liver p ool and Manch ester, He did not m erel y speak of the great laves of our popula t Of 8,000 or 10,000 inhabitants—such as f bu o t n' of COWAY Saliebury or Grantham—or he might ,mention a plate from which a warning voice had that night been heard -Windsor.- - Hon. Members of the - other - House would assu redly discover that there bad been a great alteration since their last visit in 1847.—(A laugh.) They would find a . marked improvement, which could only,be attributed to a decrease in the price of provisions. They would be told all this by the women.—(Laughter.) Noble Lords might laugh, but there was no surer indication of the do mestic condition of the people than the account which the women would give on election occasions. And he declared that if two per cent. of the female portion of the population asked for a restoretion of the corn- laws, or any equivalent, to deprive them of what they called the cheap- loaf," he (the Duke of Newcastle) would surrender the question. He believed that, on the contrary, tales would be heard from the wives and daughters of working men more pathetic in their humble prose than the forcible poetry of" Corn-law Rhymes," tales as powerfully proving the folly of restoring the corn laws as those rhymes showed the folly of re taining them. Why, the importation of corn amounted to nearly 10,000,000 quarters! Did not the very importation of that quantity prove that it was wanted ? Was it not clear that the provision for the labouring classes had been made a certainty, which before had been matter of specula tion ? And was there any ore prepared to take a course which would deprive them of this supply? Even the agri cultural villages showed the improvement. The poor-law returns showed a diminution over the whole area of England of 7 t per cent. in the number of paupers relieved. Nor had the improvement been merely in the manufacturing dis tricts; the returns proved the reverse. The few towns in which there had been an increase included some manu facturing towns, such as Leicester and Nottingham; while among the districts in which there had been the largest decrease in pauperism were Berks, Bucks, Devonshire, Westmoreland, and the East Riding. The returns proved that in the villages and smaller towns there had been a decrease of pauperism consequent upon the increased means of subsistence- and the augmented means of employment. The case was the same with Scotland. To support his statements as to England the Noble Duke referred here to a return of a poor-law inspector for one of the districts, in which it was stated that, out of a population of three millions, only three-seventieths were in the receipt of relief. The period of the return was for three years after 1848. The corn-law had been repealed in 1846, but did not come into operation till 1819. So the returns proved that the diminution of pauperism had been con current with the abolition of protection. In 1843 there were on the poor-law books in the district referred to 79,000. In 1849 this number had been reduced, in round numbers, to 74 090 ; in 1850, to 69,000 ; and, in 1851, to 65,000. The diminution of crime tended to establish similar conclusions. At the last quarter sessions there had been hardly any of those offences which of old were used to occu py several days. He contended, then, that th ese facts showed that they were the true friends of industry who had relieved it of its fetters, and sent the people to work either at the loom or the plough. It was indeed said that there had been great distress in the country. lie did not deny it. He had never denied it. He believed it was to be looked for as the natural result of the transition from one state to another. He had never anticipated that such a a change could be effected without some severe dis tress. He knew, however, that in some districts rents were too high, and had to be reduced, and he believed this to be rather a landlord's question. He would not prejudge what course the Noble Earl might pursue next session on this subject. No one could raise a voice against the present Bill, and it was very probable that a similar measure would be brought forward again. He (the Duke of Newcastle) wished such broad hints had not been thrown out on the part of the Government as to direct taxation being im practicable without exemptions, and with exemptions practically confiscation.—(Hear, hear.) And if the tax were to be abandoned before the revenue had equalised itself with expenditure, and the increase of the amount derived from other taxes now existing, be hoped the Noble Earl would not resort to duties on articles of trade, and, above all, the food of the people. He entreated the N o bl e E arl to much abandon the idea as chimerical. He (the Duke o f N ewcast l e ) would totuhteihrea,:woradsships mistaken if the , especially in times so people of this country, however attached t o t h e i r Sovereign quiet and'dea l contented. i n menace B and their constitution, would suffer any withdrawal of the benefits they had obtained by free trade. He was persuaded they would not allow any measure by which, directly or indirectlyaany increase upon the burdens of the consuming classes should take place. He hoped the Parliament about to be returned would resist any reversal or revision of the free-trade policy. Ile ,did not, of course, mean to exclude wise revision of detaila but such a recision as was talked of by "free-trade Derbyites" at elections, who spoke against reversal while reserving to themselves the power of re vision. It was doubtless intended, by these slippery phrases to do that indirectly which could not be done directly ; but he believed the resistance of the people would be equally great, and their discontent greater. The Noble Earl had spoken of the Conservative character of his Govern ment, and of his being a barrier against the encroachments of democracy. If there were ever such a encroachments" he (the Duke of Newcastle) would be a humble follower of the Noble Earl; but he saw no symptoms of such en croachments, and only observed that occasionally an agita tor's speech fell flatly upon the people's ears.--(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Earl had no right to assume to himself this position until he had " made a clear breast of it" upon this most important question. A declaration from the Noble Earl before Parliament was dissolved that he had finally abandoned any intention of restoring the corn -laws, would place the Noble Earl in a proud position before the 'people. But a Conservative policy at this day was a policy of rational, steady, well-considered, and, because steady and well-con sidered, safe tied salutary feogress--(Cheers from the Oppo sition.) It was impossible to stand still without danger, and any attempts at that re-actionary policy, of which there had been recently some symptoms, would accelerate the onward progress of that democracy, the advance of which the Noble Earl anticipated an d deprecated. He repeated, the proper policy of a Conservative Government was progress; to stand still was peril ; and re-action was revolution.—(Cheers from the Opposition. ) Lord BERNERS, after stating that in some counties the cry was " Free-trade and starvation," referred to certain re turns showing that the expenditure for the relief of the poor in 1850, which was 5,305,0001., was 440.0001. more than for the year 183''—(He ar , hear)—and. though it was less titan for the year 1849, it was only one farthing per bead on the population less than the average of the seven years when there was the highest price of wheat. It might, perhaps, be supposed that wheri there was the lowest average price of wheat we sho Id have the lowest amount of expenditure for the poor, but such was not the fact. The minimum price of wheat in 11;37 was 52a. If then, he took the last sixteen year?, and took out the eight years when wheat was above 525., and eight when it was below that price, he found a very large proportion in favour of high prices. The expenditure for the last five years was greater by '2,000,000/. than for the five preceding years; and the expenditure for 1850, though less than for 1849, was greater than for any other year since 1836 From another return he also found that from 1845 there was a general decrease of the sums deposited. For 1849 there were 20,000 depositors leas than for 1846, and 3,206,0001. less deposited in amount, though last year, certainly, there was a little increase. Lord WODELIOUSE said his him to the same conclusion es t 8 which he was best acquainted, in 1848 and 1849 had been causes quite separate from observation did not lead years ohe Noble Earl. The years hardly believed that—at least i question of free trade. He the of great depression, owing to at all disputed that the condition e eastern counties —] t was vastly improved. It would seem of the labouring classes had which was observable had createdthat the rise in wages mind of the farmer that the part of the country with some apprehension in the would improve more ra in the condition of t of Noble Lords opposite was than his own. If the argument p id ly conditioa of the labourer tu rd for anything, the depre ciationliving upon his capital, he continually-increasing deprecligricultural body would be a predicted. He appealed to must every year go more and ation. more towards the verge of ru i n quainted with the agricultural districts If the farmer was which had been so frequently their being in a continual state tif land. He believed that the optricts whether, instead of a decidedly improved and healthful Lords who were Sc. there was not excited in the breasts of thin:e he llgree of energy and industry f t sanguine hopes were being tone among the occupiers being aroused to a greater d ar nlers, and that they were than ever. He could not terous argument that had been used noticing the very prepos other House of Parliament, 1, 1 ) I n s t' l " -- not in that, or in the withstanding the many hundred - out of doors—that, not and flour annually imported intothousand quarters of corn loaf more of bread had been eaten is country, not a single show that there was no fear of lef Or the people. Now, to he might state that by the last r 11- going out of cultivation, Com missioners no less than 644 applications of the Enclosure them ;of these 161 had been disposed had been made to nual report, and of, the, remaining of before the-last an closures of ,land, anti the quantityneg 483, 364 were for en tions arid authorised to be enclosed-°,nprised in the applica• port, was 46,798 acres. Althou il since the last general rea treated as one of reason and deliberation, question was there great body of the people one of the it was with the when the Noble Earl had dpest interest. Last Governorent upon his shoulders, not the responsibility of a forming an Administration, he and had not succeeded in ample and deliberate aiid open' p 'd given them a very he was going to do, but of what zi l ogras n n , e, not of what stated that he should have propose!, would have done. He and extension of the income-ta x , , a gradual diminution duty noon corn. That was a Coupled with a moderate forth, 'but clearly ,and distinctly L not dimly shadowed the Noble Lord would, adopt the same He wished an extraordinary state - of things when course now. It was Minister of the Crown making an n ei ti leY had the Finance principres establishing the free-trade elaborate statement of Government, and then they had the Policy of the late head of the Administration—not in that Noble Earl at the Mansion-house making an elaborate House, but at the the facts used by his Chancellor of the .„nlystification of the eve of an approaching election, it was -e , xchequ On that they should have some explanation o most essential Government--whether it was deemed a , v. the policy of the the policy of the late sir Robert Peels: or to reverse entirety, and carry it out. There were other adopt it in its as the navigation-laws, the timber duties, and nutters, such upon which it would be very desirable the tea duties, should be pronounced ; and he believed other r ome opinion anxiously waiting to see whether this count states were tinae, to •pursue the policy it had commenced , would con assure the Noble Earl that by the silence • He could he was doing injury to the cause of the _ re he had adopted he headed; and however much he mightbdilLft party which party, he did not wish to see it destroyed. differ from that The Earl of ALBEMARLE trusted the Noble Earl would give the House some littl e inkling a policy. In his future other places he was not so char y of his o pinions, Mansion-house he had in dul g ed in what his .. forthe oble at A called an elaborate mysti fication ; and he hoped it Friend be said that his policy could only be elicited by would not champagne. The Noble Earl had there spoken o. turtle and class unconnected with manufactures. Would the a large Earl inform them whom he meant? - T here Were three Noble minations of persons in the agricultural class _ the thelabourer, deno the tenant-farmer, and the landlord. He would assume once that it was not the landlord, and he inferred -at .that it could not be the labourer. He feared the House was tient ---c Cries of "No," "Go on.") Well, then, would mp t a- Noble Earl inform him of any period when the labouringhe man-thanks to the blessings of free trade—enjoyed. a lag supply - of breal, bufter, bacon, eggs, tea, sugar, and Coff r ee e ? (Cheers.) Then there was the poor man's luxury, tobacco and he would call their Lordships' attention to th e i ncreased consumption of that as an evidence of the improved condition of the labouring classes. , i'..i , ae Calculations of the consumption of tobacco per Lead in ' the five last decennial periods was, omitting fractions of ounces, in 1821, .; 11 oz. per Lead; 1831, 12 o z. ; 184 1, 13 oz , and 1851, 16 oz. He believe.' that more skill and capit a had been expended in agricultural pursuits bY the tenant farmers since the pass i n g of the free-trade measures than *at any previous period. -His Noble Friend had spoken of the consumption of bones and foreign manures—he found that in the last five years the quantities imported were, in 1848, 103,000 tons ; in 1849, 112,000 tons; in 1850, 144,000 tons; and in 1811, 274,000 tons, showing an increase of 137 per cent, He admitted that there was distress among the tenant-farmers here and there, but the present was a transition state, and the improve ments going on in all quarters was an eyidenee that they Were recovering from it. He had received a number of letters from various 'parts of the country corroborating those facts. The first was from Bungay, from a Mr." Scott, a large agriculturist, who stated that the change back to protection could not be made with out creating something like a rebellion in the manufactur ing districts. In a letter from the Rev. Ge'rge Sandye, rector of Trixham, Suffolk, he stated that the tenant-farmer had suffered great loss from a local blight; but he had never known the labours of the board of guardians, of which he was chairman, lighter, and had never known the work house so comparatively free from able-bodied paupers. The poor man had had more in his mouth for the last three years than he had ever had before. Another letter from the gen tleman who managed his estates in Norfolk, and who was a Protectionist in opinions, stated that his observation, which was of no limi*ed time and over no small extent of country, led him to believe that there never was more activity ormore disposition to improve among the agricultural body. Every man who had sufficient capital to stand the existing depression was doing everything in his power to improve his condition, and that accounted for all the labourers being employed He had another letter from Mr. Blytb, one of the first agriculturists of the county of Norfolk, in a district where all the people depended directly or indi• rectly upon agriculture. The condition of the farmers there was improved ; there were few hands out of employ ment, few applications for relief, and frequent inqux;es for labourers. Immense exertions were being made to increase the produce of the land by keeping more stock, fending more cattle, and adopting a more cleanly syt tern of tillage. An ether letter, from a gentleman whose name he was not at liberty to mention, said the industry, skill, and capital of the agricultural classes was materially improved since he had become connected with West Norfolk, ten years ago. The farmer bought more manure, cultivated higher, and the agricultural mind appeare ito be more active. These were a few of the opinieas of some of the most intelligent farmers of the country. Under these circumstances he implored the Noble Earl to declare whether what the world was beginning to think probable was the fact, that conviction was a out to dawn upon the Government and produce a great change In voirLd saidL e xpl a i f n a a t n i y o n N f r o o b m l e L L o o r d r BEER d I R t N h eop S, p - t h e AE i r at tr p el r o G I a i c ßf y iws w site side was about to rise, he would at once retire.—(Hear, and laugh.) He hoped some Noble Lord connec . ed with the Government would give some explanation to the House— let them either confute the facts and statements of the Noble Duke (Newcastle), or at once frankly and generously admit they had been in error in having for so long a time opposed the commercial system which had been recently adopted in this country. Let not the fact go to the country that they were unwilling to admit what had been stated, and unable to deny it. He thought such a course would be one of which the House and the country would have some right to complain. The Noble Earl, in the short speech in which he had introduced a most important mea sure to their Lordships, stated the course the Government meant to take—viz., that during the present session they would only propose and pass such measures as were actually necessary, and that then they would make an appeal to the country to decide upon the principles and policy they should pursue with reference to certain great questions. At the time it appeared to him, although he had no right to ask the Noble Earl to define the precise measures that would be brought forward after the general election, that they had a right to expect that the Noble Earl should have stated the general principles, tendency, and colour of the policy upon which the country would be called upon to decide. But the fact was, that so far from giving any hint as to the general principles or policy proposed to be pursued, appeals were made to the con stituencies sometimes by members of the Government, some times by Hon. Gentlemen who were the ordinaty supporters of the Government, and also by speeches of different ten • dencies one from the other, so that the electors were much more in the dark as to the probable policy of the Govern. ment than on the very day when they assumed the reins of power.—(Hear, hear.) It was most desirable that the coun try should know whether it was intended to relieve the landed interest by an import duty on foreign corn or by some other indirect means, or whether it was intended to carry out the commercial system introduced by the late Sir Robert Peel. Judging from the speech of the Noble Earl at the beginning of the year, he would infer that the Noble Earl believed the present system was fraught with mischief, and that he was still of opinion that a recurrence to a duty on corn, for purposes of revenue and protection, was a mat- ter of necessity -- The Earl of DERBY—The Noble Earl is quite wrong in supposing that I said a duty on foreign corn was a matter of necessity. I stated, that for the purpose at once of re lieving the suffering agricultural interest, and also for the purpose of improving the revenue, and thereby enabling us to take off other taxes without injury to the consumer, I thought it might be desirable to impose a moderate fixed duty on foreign corn. I distinctly stated that that was my own opinion. I did not say that it was a matter of necessity, but I stated that, whether the relief should be given by the imposition of a dnty upon foreign corn was a matter which rested upon the judgment of the constituencies, but that I thought that was a desirable mode of affording relief to the agricultural classes. I hold to that opinion still; but I state again, that that is a question which must be left to the con stituencies of the country ; and, moreover, if it give any sa tisfaction to the Noble Earl, and to the Noble Lords oppo site, my opinion is, from what I have since heard and learned, there certainly will not be in favour of the re-imposition of a duty on foreign corn that extensive majority, without which as I stated to your Lordships at the beginning of the session. it would not be desirable to propose it.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) - Earl GRANVILLE was glad that the mistake in his mind as to the Noble Earl's expressions had produced a de claration which would be hailed with the greatest satisfac tion by the country, that there was no likelihood of re-im posing a duty upon corn. He was glad to find that this great question of raising the price of food by the production of an artificial scarcity was at last and for ever given up. There was one other pledge given by the Noble Earl with regard to the navigation-laws. The Noble Earl said that he had no intention of re-enacting the navigation-laws. The present system had, he believed, been found in practice to work most beneficially, and it had already been considerably promoted by other countries. No less than 500 British vessels had within the last year entered the ports of the United States, which, previously to the repeal of the navigation-laws, could not be admitted, and of these no less than about 400 had been cleared out. He really thought, after the declaration of the Noble Earl, so suddenly and unexpectedly made to them, which showed that he had come to the only conclusion which Noble Lords on that side of the House believed the Government could come, that it was unnecessary to trespass further upon the attention of their Lordships. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE complained that upon the second reading of one of the most important Bills ever laid before that House, their Lordships had not been sum moned. The Earl of DERBY should say that he had not come * down to the House that evening prepared to go into a de bate on the seecnd reading of the Bill. He thought to have it read a second time pro forma, and to have taken the debate in Committee. Had he any idea that a debate would have been raised on the question, he should have come prepared to meet it; but their Lordships might perceive by the benches on the Ministerial side of the House, that none of the sup porters of her Majesty's Government were present, which would not be the case were there any expectation that the debate would now be gone into: The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that if the Noble Earl I opposite (Earl Derby) had intimated to the House at an early period that it was his intention to take the second reading pro forma, there would be no objection whatever.— (Hear, hear.) When the Noble Earl intimated to him (the Duke of Newcastle) his intention of taking the second read ing pro forma, he instantly acquiesced, but at the same time assured the Noble Earl that other Noble Lords would be more or less taken by surprise at the adoption of such a course, understanding that a debate was to ensue on the second reading. He should say if the Noble Earl the First Minister of the Crown were taken by surprise in the matter, it was by his own officials In the other House who failed to give him proper intimation.—(Hear.) The Earl of DERBY said, that, though a matter of con venience, it would not be a matter of absolute necessity that the Bill should pass before the Whitsuntide holidays. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed that the Bill was accepted by the country only on the grounds of its being a temporary measure. He called on the Noble Earl the First Minister of the Crown to declare at once—as to such declaration he should come next year—that he did not intend to re-impose a burden on any class of the community for the benefit of another.— (Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Earl declare that he would give up protection to agricolture as it had been called, as, by doing so now, it would be more convenient to the country, and advantageous to the Go vern ment.—(llear, hear.) The Earl of DERBY made an observation .across the table which did not reach the gallery. Earl GREY had heard with great surprise the observa tions of the Noble Earl opposite (Earl of Derby) in the course of the incidental conversation which took place that evening. The income-tax had been for several years the keystone of their fiscal position; and no Minister of the Crown, in mov ing its continuance or re-imposition, ever failed to explain the motives and reasons that demanded its re-enaetment.— nquestion,c theual3- namely, s ei ol year.y ' had (Elear; hear.) Last year, when his Noble Friend (the Mar quis of Lansdowne) moved the second reading of a similar Bill, he thought it right respectfully to state his views to the House on the subjecr.—(Hear, hear.) It was at great in convenience that he (Earl Grey) attended there that even ing, as was also the case with many other Noble Peers at his side of the House, who came fully prepared to hear the sub ject entered into. If the Noble Earl opposite had intimated previously his intention of taking the second reading pro forma, no Noble Lord, he was sure, would have objected. But, after coming down to the House at much inconve nience, and then to be told that the Noble Earl had arranged to take the discussion on a later stage, was not, he should say, treating the House with proper or becoming respect. — (Hear, hear.) It was right that the House should consider this matter, as it wee one of deep and vital importance to the country.. If Noble Lords opposite were afraid to avow or maintain their former opinions, were Noble Lords be slurred over?-(Hear, hear.) It was therefore with grea pleasure he had heard the speech of the Noble Duke who on the Opposition side of the House to permit the matter to t ke (the Duke repeat the statements of that Noble Du . . - of Newcastle), but he should observe that on the Minis iven preceded him (Earl Grey) that evening. He would not to side of the House no contradiction had beendgbe la to the facts stated by his Noble Friend. There ha m e . great reductions of taxation without corresponding anddi ig, nutions in the revenue. Trade had been prosperous. 'culture, branch of our industry. not even excluding g _ Hear, to which so much reference had been ma e k .cc—ording to hear.) Pauperism had been diminished ; and, a he uer, the spirit of enterprise and activity now distinguished every the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer , - c equences present.—(Hear, hear.) Not one of thos fats esult of free trade predicted by Noble Lords opposite as the r b'ect which, had come to re o t f il li e s l a g l 3 t ae e lr r as a wrs2 so, prosperity of th a e li c z o a u ti n o t n ry . hTadhenreevweraaboeene: hisiughu.inecirs from the office he (Earl Grey) late rded which, he was hold, he felt interested in, and, as rega up their minds to informed, the Government had made than at f the ensuing year— effect an alteration in the course and considering the very deep. ed to go into a few details.— oa whichth a t was took the i n t case, he commenced the dia. (Hear, hear.) The Noble D k thhee hoped article o of b be sugar.perm permitted Now,te interesto eat increase which had taken of g sugar. He found that in the place in the consumptionti . n the duties - April, 1846 July, ar lB of l.l w , h t a l t ie w w e h f o o l r e . endinge consumption reached 115t,h1714,000 cwt. ; whilst, for hear). That was cwt.; whilst for e ew p nt o d. i i n n pointed A o t out the admittedt,h was r 4,145,00(5 ry last, the the half of the present year , So that ed to 4,033,000 cwt.we consumed —thelqa t s ia t n y t eitayroof precedingsus consumptiona r hear.) (ears ending etae i d n ,fo a . n — u ( a Hear, consumer. In that merely consum a striking fact, but very easily foreign sugar, and when Before the introduction of there was market, he found by returns that, looking a monopoly in the at present 7qUaono;oooity amount bond, foreign sugar was 345. 9d. - per cwt., only 21s. 3d.per whilst British sugar was . cwt,, making a the 'consumption of sugar reached 4,145,000 a t the .e eaf within lie d:s i l 6 o d o a. , r O pwy o a rhOeoaccl:evlytyt.eiaantcroco—h lm therefore, in addition to a large revenue, the British consumer was taxed to an extent of no less than 2,790,001. But the result of t h e A , th e than c. cs s ame differenceeyeas'an a 0 • duty was, that .- whilst the consumer had benefited enormously, the revenue, instead of suffering, had become greatly the gainer, so that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might well declare that, as regarded sugar, the increase in consumption was a marvellous example of re ducing duties.—(Hear, hear.) The benefits of the measure, as far as this country was concerned, could not be contested after that declaration. When foreign sugar was first ad mitted, they were told that the effect would be to destroy the cultivation of sugar in the colonies, as also to give a fresh impulse to slavery. From that statement he (Earl Grey) at the time entirely dissented, and stated as his opinion that the ultimate effsct would be to promote the abolition of the slave trade, and to increase, instead -of diminish, the cultivation of colonial sugar.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the slave trade, his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) when leaving office was able to con gratulate himself and the country on the practical extinc tion of the slave-trade; and be believed there had no change since then occurred. He was aware. that Cuba was now planted by free labour; and a contract had been entered into for the supply of 80,000 free labourers to the Cuban colony. The next point they were cautioned on was the _destruction of the cultivation of sugar,. a branch of industry in which any falling-off was certain to make itself manifest in a very brief period. Now, as he had been interested in this matter, he had compared the averages of the three last years of protection from 1839 to 1841—in the East Indies, West Indies, and Mauritius, with the three years following the complete cm anci.,ation of the trade, and the result w as a vas. increase in the quantity produced in the three years following complete emancipation —(Hear.) With respect to British Guiana, the Governor of that colony, in a dispatch dated the l eth of November last, said that the situation of the proprietors was better than it had been for some years past; and that, if they acted prudently, there was no reason for apprehending a reverse. The alarm ge nerally felt with re gar d t o t h e fall in sugar. was not with re gard to slave-grown sugar, but beetroot sugar; but he (Earl Grey) believed that alarm to be perfectly unfounded ; for even with heavy protective duties he did not thinkthis beet rout could compete with th e sugar cane. On however, the slave-growe rs were as much alarmed as r t ein la t' free-growers. He seas aware th a t extreme distress existed in Jamaica, and that at this moment the pressure was severe; but Jamaica, considering th e va l ue of the soil moat climate, and the character of the i n h a bi tants, ought andnot to be in a disadvantageous position as comp are d with the other colonies. That suffering, however, he believed to have arisen partly from the ravages of the cholera, but more from the planters having listened too much to the advice of Noble Lords opposite, and to a disposition to neglect other means of improving their condition in favour of a visionary attempt to win back protection. The Legislature of Jamaica, neglecting remedial measures, had fixed their eyes upon protection, and nothing else. The result was that whilst other colonies were progressing, whilst the production of Mauritius was making a gigantic advance, Jamaica showed little signs of improvement. Turning to our own country, he believed that the improvement observable in it was the result of our having liberated its industry from the restric tions to which a vicious policy had formerly subjected it. And yet that great commercial and financial revolution begun in 1846, and almost completed in 1819 by the repeal of the navigation-laws, took place under circumstances the most disadvantageous. In the first place, the corn-laws were hardly repealed when the potato disease, which had been partially felt during the preceding autumn, appeared with tenfold violence. Concurrently with this there was a defi ciency of corn throughout the greater part of Europe, and the consequence was that in Ireland, during the whole of 1846 and part of 1847, there was an absolute famine, while in this country the price of food was high, and distress followed. In 1847 every man felt apprehensive as to whe ther the supply of corn would be sufficient to feed the peo ple. At one period, about this time, corn sold in Mark-lane for 100 s. a quarter. A NOBLE Piss-1255. a quarter. Earl GREY believed at upwards of 100 s a quarter. Added to this, 8,000,000/. were borrowed for the relief of Ireland, and the country had to suffer the effects of the re-action of the railway mania and of overtrading in 1845 and 1846, and during the latter part of 1847 it probably went through more disasters than had ever previously befallen it. To complete this combinevion of adverse circumstances, there was the re volution which occurred in France in the spring of IMB, and which spread itself from one end of the continent to the other. But under, and, as he contended, by virtae of the free-trade policy, the country had successfully passed this tremendous trial. The people submitted to privations with patience and resignation, because they knew they were not artificially produced, and they met with a speedy reward. Industry and commerce revived, and all trace of these fear ful calmities was lost in an inconceivably short space of time. And what was the result in a financial point of view? Why that the country had made provision by more than 974,000/. for the 10,000,0001. borrowed in 1847 and 1848. Such a result was net only a subject of congratulation by those who maintained the free-trade policy which led to it, but by those who paved the way prior to 1816. For himself, he rejoiced to have taken part in the commercial discussions which had preceded and accompanied the measures of free trade. When the success of these free-trade measures had been so com pletely established, it was natural that the country should feel much anxiety as to whether the powerful party to which the Noble Earl (Derby) belonged intended to tamper with them. The Noble Earl had made an important declaration to-night, but up to this moment the country were as much at a loss to know what the views of her Majesty's Govern ment were as the first day that they took office. The Noble Earl, on entering office, had said he would not attempt the re-imposition of a duty on corn unless he had the powerful concurrence of the country. The Chancellor of the Exche quer, however, had told his constituents on his re-election that the agriculturists were to have relief by a countervailing duty on corn, as he called it, or by some other cheap and simple mode of relief, and that the Government were deter mined to afford that relief. Not long after, the Right Hon. Gentleman made a most able speech in the other House of Parliament on introducing the very resolution which was the foundation of the present Bill. In that speech the Right Hon. Gentlemen made a most careful and admirable state ment of the advantages of free trade; but unfortunately the Noble Earl opposite, not long afterwards, made what he called a supplemental speech, and to a festive audience de clared that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a most excellent speech, but that he had not touched upon the subject of the advantages of a compromise with the landed interest; and the Noble Earl on that occasion vmut on to insist u pen the necessity of acme compromise being entered into with the landed interest on account of the advantages which had been afforded to the consumer. In the course of this somewhat enure proceeding, the Noble Earl informed the assembled citizens that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was only an imperfect statement of the views of the Government, and that another important part of those views ought not to be lost sight of. Unfortunately this was not all, for after this supplementary speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he had been very much misunderstood —that he had given no opinions in his budget-speech, and that he in tended to act upon all the principles he had asserted when in opposition. This was a somewhat startling proposition, , produced, perhaps, by murmurs in the camp. But th is was not all. '1 here had appeared various addresses from the adherents of the Government. Even gentlemen holding office had stated in their addresses to constituents very contradictory views of the policy supposed to be held. One Right Ho nour able Gentleman , not in the Cabinet, said that he accepted office only in the full conviction that the Noble Earl would reverse the policy of Sir Robert Peel; and that Right Hon. Gentleman still remained in office. But, thanks to the vigorous application of the screw by his (Earl Grey's) Noble Friend (Earl Granville), a statement that it was not the intention of the Government to re-impose a duty on corn had been reluctantly extorted. There was something else, however, in the back ground. What it was the contrivers did not say ; but he (Earl Grey) thought he knew something of the nature of it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in speaking of this scheme, said it was something in comparison with which the duty on corn would be less costly, less inconvenient, and more simple. If that were so, he (Earl Grey) said, let them go back to the duty on corn. But he thought there ought to be an end to this ambiguity and studied concealment. If the Noble Lord and his supporters believed they had been all along wrong, let them say as much— (Hear, hear)—if they believed they had been right, let them discuss the question in a straightforward manner. It was not right that a Go vernment which was to compose reconcile town and country, and for ever heal past differences, should, in order to serve some pitiful electioneering purposes, keep their views concealed. As a straightforward declaration was the most manly and best for the interests of the country, so it was the best for the strength and stability of the Adminis tration.—(Hear, hear.) This was a question on which the Government had no right to shrink from explanation. By explanation the Noble Earl might incur reproach for having grossly deceived himself or others; or, in the reckles Pursuit of party objects, he might have sacrificed what he knew to be the best interests of the country. On the . u d g ment- ud o th er hand, , he judgment might have erred from blindness or want of n either case little confidence would b e inspire d i n his jg mente The Noble Earl must choose alterna tives—want of judgment or want oe candour.een two T one he e ; must submit ; had pursued for the i and he would therebybe incur the penalty due to the erroneous cenrseensity h e could not escape, and 1 last six years. From that p ise his views the heavier it the longer he attempted to ---egu would be. r d e , can not but thank the The Earl of DERBY — MY Iso. Noble Earl (Hear, hear, and a laugh)—but for his kindness in offering the two tempting laltterurustattivesmahysbheaspeunnamitedted—tO say, on behalf of myself and my Noble Friends, and my colleaues in the other House of Bey Lor . ds, with due ll be driven respect to P ar liament, that I do net Chink we aha to accept either of them.—(Cheera) the Noble Earl, I must take the liberty of repeati ng t h e o pi n ion that a great part of this discussion, and more especi ally the greater part of the sp eech y our L ordships have just heard, i s i n a great measure, if not altogether, irreleva n t t o the question under debate.—(Hear, hear)—that question b e i ng whether, con sidering the financi a l con di tion of the cou ntry, we shall renew fora single year an o bj ectionable tax, or l eave the country with a defi c i ency, this year of 2,000,000!., and, probably, rent year of 5,0e0,000/.? —(H ear , hear.) My Lords, I say, in a debate on the introduction of su ch a Bill for such a purpose, I do no t thi n k i t is relevant to enter upon a discussion of the whole commercial policy o f the country , the more especially as th e Noble Earl knows, from the circumstances in which the Govesnin h av e been placed, and the cir cums t ances under which they have taken office, that a full and complete discussion of the subject on their pa r t i s i mposs ib le.— n say,the gr eater portion of the s p eec h of the Noble Earl, I must" The refers to a power wholly irrelevant to the question of continuance of the inco me -t ax— l mean the effects of free trade in sugar. And, my Lords, while on the one hand the Noble Earl, with a candour for which I thank him, ad mitted. that the great revo l u ti on i n the commercial policy of the country did not take place at an earlier period than 1846, and consequently d oes no t re f er at all to the earlier proposi tions of Sir Robert Peel's policy from 1842 to 1846, he has at the same time asked the question whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Government to pursue . and abandon the com mercial policy of Si r Robert P elhe illustrates that question by an elabo ra t e argument on the subject of the must sugar duties. N ow , my L ords, I remind the Noble Earl and your Lordships that the abolition of differential duties on sugar was no part of the policy of Sir Robert Peel, no part of his propositions; and it is p er f ect l y we ll known that when the proposition was made by her Majesty's late Government, Sir Robe r t P ee l with the greatest reluctanc e was induced to conset t to the change; not because that measure was wise, equitable, or just, but because h a d to choose between the a d opt i on of an unjust ,he and impolitic course of proceeding, an d the late expulsion of her Ma j es ty Government from office ; a n d Si r R o b er t Peel accordi n gq took the generous course, but I think impolitic course,. of supporting his successors and opponents, a policy to which he was himself opposed. Therefore do not let the Noble Earlandclaim the abolition of the countr although adopting the differential duties Peel's free trade or commercial policy--(liear, hear.) regard to the effect of that measure, on sugar sa s s portion of Sir_ Robert vvith I am sorry. g when the Nobl e E arl is under some in isapprehe slave s trade, he speaks of th e almost total cessa ti o n of the and attributes that cessation to free trade. I n the first fcrui place, he is wrong in point of f ac t. Undoubtedly oar y Lor sers operationds, by a vigo rous and active on the part o —by the adoption of coercion on nch put dawn ; and the co ast of Africa and Brazil, the s l ave t ra d e h as been very In - late years our efforts have b een aided by the sincere .......m..................x...ra, -- ........ - 4 - .9iri 1 exertions of the Brazilian Government s But the Nobba' '' 'se' Earl is in error, when, in speaking of C u b a , he elthBe - '-: - that the slave trade is put down, or that ati Liais e m ult , e --- - Jell it is in course of diminution.—(ilea-, n ear .) e Th e laati l in . en• - f el is, and I regret to say so, that the alave trauelsintuiti on the increase; and no two subjects can b e more- , connected than the effects of free trade i n sugar. J, West India colonies, and the increase of the slave trach fn Cubs. At this moment, when, as has been admitted by the Noble Earl, Jamaica is in a state of deep depression and distress, the steam machinery of Jamaica is being transfer red in large quantities to Cuba, thus withdrawing it from the cultivation of free-labour sugar to the cultivation of slave labour sugar. I believe there can be no doubt whatever— the Noble Earl has admitted—that although in some of the colonies there has been an increase in the production of sugar yet that in Jamaica there is a state of deep depressionand distress existing, not arising from a diminution of pro duction, but from the unremunerative prices obtained for the produce. The opinion I entertained on this subject in 1846 I entertain now; and it is, that in the long run it is not pos sible for free-grown sugar, except in some very favoured situations, to compete with the slave sugar of Cuba and Brazil; and although it be quite true that at this moment there is an increasing amount of sugar imp° , teinfrom B itish colonies, yet if the Noble Earl will look at the Price . Currents, he will see that the increa sed amount is more than compensated by the fall i i price, so that the planter has not the alternative of abandoning the trade, and at tee sate tima he has no hope of carrying it en with advantage. But. my Lords, I say that the question of sugar is wholly Levert from the ques tion whether we shall or shall not continue the income-tax for the present year.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl has introduced the question of the sugar duties, not apropos to any measures proposed by her Majesty's Government, or statement made or announcement given, but beceuee he understands, or has heard some rumour, that in another ses si n of Parliament her Majesty's Government intend to re trace past steps with regard to sugar. I apprehend that this is not a question upon which the Government are called at this moment to make a' declaration, more especially ander ties engagement we have entered into—namely, that we are not, in the course of this session, to submit any fiscal or financial measure to the consideration of Parliament. The House will, therefore, agree with me that nothing is more impolitic, im prudent, or improper than to suggest or hold out any expec tation of fiscal change, at a time when it was impossible to discuss them, or to decide upon them until another Parlia ment. The Noble Earl who has just sat down said that the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of the present session shows that the subject of free trade is neces sarily connected with the consideration of the income-tax. or finances Now, it was the bounden duty of the Chancellor of the Ex chequerto go into every detail connected with the revenue finances of the conutry, setting forth, not the merits of this or that had Plan, but to show what the progress of the re venueand the expenditure of the bees, before the House could be expected to agree to any measures for the purpose country e . f — sq ( u H a e l a is r in h g ea t r h . e ) consequently impossible for him ' ' • • revenue l a to avoid dealing with those questions of duties in the large articles of consumption—more especially in respect to su gar of those articles which enter and corn, and the importation largelyfthe Chancellor of the into the revenue of the country. I - . was impossible or Ex chequer to overlook th ese f acts. the Noble Lord opposite, " Oh, (gem,) recollect (gem,)But, then, says that last year you admitted that if y ou were in office income-tax." I am ready to admit you would r educe the time, and I say so now, if I had t that I said so at that (Hear, hear.) But, subse quen t tee means of doing so.— Majesty's Government having at their that declarati o n, h e r command consider able surplus, thought proper to do away a abolition of other taxes, and thereby renderingaith it by the then of the income-tax, which I then thoughtthe redac tion impolitic tax, and now think is an impoliti c tax, was alto gether impossible.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore I do not think that the Noble Lord is justified in pointing to any aPparen inconsistency on my part because last year I expressed an opinion favourable to the gradual reduction of the income tax during these times of peace. You have, however, de parted from your general financial system, and I submit that you must now submit to this tax for a single year at all events, because you have no surplus upon which you can confidently rely.—(Hear.) lam not going to follow the Noble Lords who have spoken from the other side of the House into a general discussion of the abstract measure of free trade, or what is called our commercial pplicy. To one portion of our commercial policy I confess I was a wil ling party. I willingly assisted to reduce the amount of our differential duties, because I was desirous of placing the home and the foreign producer upon a footing of a real— not a nominal—equality I was desirous of intro ducing a bond fide competition, so as to give a fresh stimulus to this as well as to other countries. lam not igno rant, nor does it take me at all by surprise, when I am told that so far from diminishing, it had greatly increased, the amount of consumption. Whether the principle upon which this system was founded was introduced by the late Sir R. Peel or any other party—to that principle I am willing to give my utmost support, provided it inflicts no injustice upon any party, nor entai's any loss upon the re venue.—(Hear, hear.) It may, no doubt, be practicable to give the people a greater command of the comforts and luxuries of life. No doubt, if the reduction of duties will do this, and not act unjustly to other classes, it must be a matter of rejoicing to any man that the price of these ar ticles is brought so low as to come within the reach of the masses of the population. I will not deny but that there has been a great boon conferred upon the consumers of this country by the diminished price of sugar, consequent upon the reouction of the duties. No one doubted but that such a measure would give a greater addition to the comforts of tha people. But the question which we have to consider is, not singly or simply whether a great advantage has been con ferred upon the class of consumers in this country, but whether that advantage is bought by an act of injustice and spoliation to ether parties, and by involving in ruin a large class of those who, upon the faith of your own Act of Parlia ment, embarked their all in the cultivation of the article the duties upon which you hare so reduced? - (Hear, hear.) When those things are done, it is difficult to ieverse them. But I confess in the face of this great advantage which the people have derived from the importation of save-grown sugar, I would much rather have seen a smaller advantage derived by the improved cultivation and encouragement given to those who have a natural and rightful claim upon us than an increased advantag by an amount of cheapness gained by what I the - oven, and still think, wits an act of in juatie, —an act the ten•!tncy of which so, a to stimulate and encourage the production of sugar by means of s l av ery, an d lay that of increasing the infa le.ous traffic in slaves.—(tlear, hear.) Ido not deny that it is possible that the consump tion of the comforts and necessaries of life has been increased in con-equence of the reduced price of corn; but that such in c -ease has been in anything like tee p - por.ions stead by the Noble Lord opposite, I say is contrary to the fact ; and if I bad the figures here before me I could show that they have been grossly exaggerated. Noble Lords opposite have talked of an increase of 10,000,000 quarters of corn in the consump tion of the people of this country. Now that calculation I believe is taken upon an average of years which includes some years of famine, in which of course the imports had been considerably larger. The Duke of ARGYLL was here understood to say that the highest amount of corn consumed within the years quoted were 11,000,000 quarters. The Earl of DERBY—But even supposing that all that quantity lass been consumed, you are not t o s u ppose that that is a gross increase of the consumable produce of this country. In the first place, the average in"• portation b e f o re the year 1846 was , I thi nk, 3,000,000, or 4,000,000 of quarters, and if I deducted these from the 10,000,000 alleged to have been consumed, will reduce it to 6,000,000 or 7,003,00 3 of quarters. I say that from these 10,000,000 quarters, assuming this to be the quantity the average in the years quoted, you must consu med upon 4,000 00 of d e d u ct something between 3,000,000 qu arters which were imported the yea and d r e bef ' h ore tu o n t i Tat tear which the alteration of he law was an increase of consumption to the amount of h something like 6,,, 000 000 not of wheaten flour, but of corn of all I believe descriptions. The Noble Lord asks me whether that 800,000 acres of wh eat land had gone out of cultivation in the face of the immen se enclosures that have taken place. Now, in the first place, a large portion of those Enclosure Acts did nothing whatever towards adding to the cultiva tion. They were the enclosure of lands generally which were held in common. But they are just as much in culti vation now as they were before those Acts were passed Althoug h no doubt 800,000 acres had not gone out Of c ulti. - ration, does the Noble Lord mean to say that there has been no diminution in th e amount of produce received from Ireland to this co untry? s V by, there has been lake a diminution of 300,000 darters of wheat something Within the last few years of what was usually receiv d mean Co say that there has been no increasee • Ido not con sumption of corn; but I say that when in the such a fact that there has been an additionyou argue upon ing powers of the people to an to the consum quartere, that you grossly exaggerate.ything like 10,000,000 increased consumption purchased? But how is this lightly over this part ofthe The Noble Lord passed very well for him, or for the subject. It may be that we can afford to receive 1 large proprietors, to say the power of consuming less in order to afford the masses incomes. But there ' more — we shall still have sufficient is a and farmers—so that large class who are ban land lordsalso suffer. Now, when one suffers, the other must They are small , what is the condition of that class? whom this loss fpalrsliprietors, cultivating their wit l ana ',„ li t r a of this class have been so a double weight. Alargel lu—- that they have been pressed upon by !ear recent legis lation, utterly cultiva tors of the soil in this extin g lughe d d rieren to seek a refuge in other co n senntrY, and have.e I confess I see with tries. — the greatest satisfaction (H believe it to be true, that and . I the labouring classes ar u e n, ping a considerable amount Of prosperity, and I should be the last man that would desire by any measure to deprive them of say P,T i t i j e ol l , °f 1 ! lat prosperity. But undoubtedly the prospeeitY ott" auouring classes is wholly dependant upon the pros per]. y of_ the ern of the employed, the ployer. If, then, you diminish the m eans 1 labourer, sooner or later, will fail i n obtaining employment, and on him ultimately the injury will fain/ The wages, t no doubt, have not been diminished is pro portion _ o the reduced price of corn; but that is merely to s e ay d th t at the burden is at present sustained by the landis he tenants, and shoulders of the labourer. has not yet been cast upon the d the This I believe to be the fact; " *derablconsequence is that a corm e degree of the labourers are enjoYiy pros t is also true, as stated, that in the perity.—(Hear, hear.) three three years both tenant and land course of the last two lord have made extraordinary' .e xertions to improve the land. The stimulus of necessity has ope ratedcultivation of the an d to a certain extent most wholesomely upon them, pe nevertheless with great severity, oppres and advantageone . , , , . And have very great doubts whether sion, and hardsh p ii I althoug great expenditure is undertaken by in many cases, the great portion of the outlay is not a loss to those class es. * advantageoushe tenant, althouh at the present time the proprietor to the labordo not deny but it may be ofren I . has the course the last few years there that i n of exportation. tom a great increase of our articles I am not going to enter into the question Now, in reference to the discovery of gold i n various places b u t of this' I have no doubt, if it had not been for these influx of grea t and increasing discoveries, and the large . gold into this countr y with ra p idl y increasing speed, you would hare seen a different state of commercial affairs her . e than what you see now.—(llear, hear.) And although it be quite true that the amount of our imports has may largely increased, as w,ll as our exports, although it may be true that the amount of our productions has greatly increased, I very much doubt, if we could look into the balance-sheets of our commercial men, we should see that increased amount of traffic of these exports and imports ac companied with a corresponding pr,fit. On the contrary, with the largest amount of trade almost aver known, it has been less profitable to them during the last f o y. :years than in any period ce ithin [heir experience, except in years of panic. As a proof of the prosperity of the country, the Noble Lords are fond of quoting statistical returns of the reduced amount of pauperism. The Noble Lord opposite commenced with the year 1848, and congratulated the count' y on the im mense reduction of pauperism since that period. Well, but is it fair to take the year 1848 as a starting post for these calculations? In taking up thi s part of the argument We have had a vivid declamation from the Noble Earl who has just sat down. But thatof a most exceptionable character, inwhich was a year classes almost all were involved in absolute • ruin. That was a year of famine, SD that the amount ofpauperism then cannot be fairly said to be a data upon Which cal c ulate f" you have a right to THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 25, 1852, 1. x'~