The Sun. — London, England, 1852-05-18 00:00:00

;here was the power existing to raise the militia in that country. With regard to the b - ,llotti. , d men the case stood thus: they wz-,re liable by the existing militia law to serve in Ireland, if wanted; whererls the volun teers were not so but came only under the now system. The Hon. Gentleman would then ste that it Was necessary to make the volunteers liable to the same service as the ballotted Mr. BRIGHT s,id he would not give the GRnmittee the trouble of dividing. Mr. M. GIBSON asked if he could have an estimate of the expense that would ho thrown upon the parish and county rates by the proceedings tinier the Bill? The burdens that would be thus thrown upon real property Would be something extensive. Mr. WALPOLE was not able to give the estimate. The clause was then agreed to. - On clause 16, which provides that where men cannot be raised by voluntary enlistment her Majesty in Couu cil may order the ballot, Mr. CHARTER'S opposed the clause. He con tended that the ballot ought not to be had recourse to except where there was en extreme necessity for it—a necessity which in the present case-did not exist. Be. lieving that the popularity of the measure would be in creased by the omission of the principle, he moved that the words " to be raised by ballot" should be omitted. Mr. WALPOLE acid the reasons of his Hon. Friend were very strong fur retaining the clause as it stood. The first object of the Bill was to have a certain number of men; the second to raise them wiih as little disturb ance of relations of life as possible. It they could be obt,ined by the voluntary enlistment means proposed, so much the better; but, as it was primarily necessary to raise these 80,000 men, the power of the billet could not be omitted, as a last alternative. The Bill held out in ducements to volunteer for the bounty, and,in the failure of that motive, to volunteer, lest the operation should compel those who might not otherwise serve. Under these circumstances, he could nut consent to omit the compulsory clauses. Mr. PETO thought the Government would do all hat was necessary if they tried the volunteer system until next session. If it did not succeed by that time, he was of opinion that it would be batter to increase the standing army. ,He bore testimony to the loyalty of the working classes, and stated that on the 10th April, 1848, he had tendered the adhesion of 7,009 men in his own employ ment to the Government in the interest of internal order in the kingdom. Mr. EWART said it would be better to make an ad dition to the regular army than to demoralise the people. He thought the wisest thing would be to in crease the artillery, if an addition to the military force of the country was deemed fleet ssary. If the Govern ment limited the Bill to voluntary enlistment, it would not be so unpopular as it was certain to become with the compulsory clauses. Mr. FOX said, in yielding the compulsory clauses the Government would give up no real power, as they had substantially agreed to confine themselves to the volun teer system until the next year. By insisting on the re tention of those clauses, moreover, they would most ma terially damage the volunteer system, while they would cast apprehension among the working classes in this country. Mr. HUDSON had supported the Bill to the present time, but feeling satisfied that the force necessary would be raised by volunteering, he did not think it necessary to arm the Government with the ballot. His consti tuents were all against the ballot. He did not see the necessity for the Bill at all; but though he should not oppose his own views to the knowledge possessed by the late and the present Governments, he could not support the compulsory clauses. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would not press the ballot. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ssid the Committee had agreed that 80,000 men should be raised, and it was expected that they would be raised by voluntary enlist ment; but he asked the Cominittee, would the means to raise the force in question bo complete if the Govern ment had not the power to enforce the vote of the Com mittee by the ballot? Hon. Members said over and over again that there was nothing so detestable to the country as the ballot; but if voluntary enlistment failed the ballot would be the only alternative. When, there fore, the power to raise these 80,000 men was conceded the measure would be incomplete if a contingency were not provided for—namely, that the men could not be raised by voluntary enlistment. Mr. CARDWELL said the argument of the Attorney- General was, that he would have to put the ballot to a new Parliament in its naked deformity, in case it was rejected from the Bill. The speech of the Honourable Gentleman therefore raised the practical question — should the Queen's subjects, in a time of profound pease, be submitted to compulsory conscription? For the last twenty years the militia law had existed in a state of suspension, the Queen having a power of ap- Plying the ballot in case of necessity. If the clause Was affirmed, the principle would be established that the ballot was necessary in a time of profound peace as a subsidiary to voluntary,enlistment. The Government, by the mere agency of the ballot, were going to compel the professional man and others to pay a tax of 301. in a time of profound peace to provide a substitute. The proposition for rejecting the clause was, therefore, not unnecessary. The votes of the Committee enabled the Government to raise the militia by voluntary means; but as no exigency hal been proved, he could not con sent to vivo them the compulsory clauses demanded. Mr. NEWDEGATE said it was impossible the Go vernment could have a militia without the compulsory clauses. Sir F. BARING did not believe the omission of the clause would deprive the Government of a single man. especially as the operation of the ballot would be post poned until January 1, 1853. Under the present mi litia law, in case of danger, 150,000 men could be raised by the ballot, at present suspended. He would not vote for the amendment to get rid of the ballot, but if the ballot was postponed time would be given to consolidate the militia law. Another point gained would be an im portant one —namely, that the present expensive mode of raising the militia might be altered. The late Go vernment thought the charges should not fall upon the country rates, but upon the general taxation of the country. This Bill, however, charged an indefinite suns on the county rates. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the omission of the compulsory clauses would seriously affect the chances of obtaining a force by voluntary en listment. Men would enlist voluntarily when they saw the eventuality of the ballot in the distance ; otherwise they would not. The effect of the ballot on those districts where volunteers were likely to be ob tained was a strong consideration, and ho could assure the Committee that the chances of voluntary enlistment would be seriously affected if the compulsory clauses Were omitted. Mr. PRICE said that a man who would expect to get 301. or 401. as a substitute, would not enlist volunta r, ily- The ret en ti on o f th e com pulsory clauses would, therefore, prevent voluntary enlistment. Mr. WAICLEY said there was no force in the state ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because the ballot was foregone for this year. The feeling of young !lien out of doors was that if they were drawn by the pallet they would go to gaol rather than serve. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be adopted. ,' Mr. GRACE" represented a constituency which the . pallet would peculiarly affect, and he was also the ems Plover of thousands of workmen. He could therefore speak absolutely of their repugnance to it; and he trusted therefore that the elaw3e would not be perse vered in. He believed there was a strong feeling in the c iuntry egainst the Militia Bill, and he believed, it' more rdetlenee was really necessary, that the people would a leo. have an addition to the standing army. He hoped Government would therefore consent to abandon the clause. Mr. S. HERBERT explained, There were many reasons why, in his judgment, the possible volunteer would not have such u routed horror of the ballot as asserted. Ho feared that the tone of argument used by seine lion. Gentlemen would have the eff..ct of making the people believe that Government had not the power to induce citizens to came forward in defence of the country in case of need. Mr. H. BERKELEY said in the city he represented there was a petition getting up against the ballot. He was satisfied the people were strongly opposed to the ballot. The Committee divided, when there appeared — For the amendment . it o Against it ... 127 Majority for the ballot ••.--l7 On our re-admission we found Mr. MITCHELL stating he wished that every gen tleman who supported this Bill could be called upon to serve in person. Mr. NV. FOX moved a proviso to the effect that no person shall be liable to compulsory military service whose name is not on the registration list as an elector for some borough, city, or county. He thought there were many circumstances besides population to be con. sidered in such a measure as that now before the House. He considered that property ought to be taken into con sideration quite as much us population. He also con sidered that the habits and oc cupations of the people ought to be taken into account. He claimed for those who had no representation, no rights of citizenship, ex emption from the duties which this B ill proposed to im pose upon th em . Th a t large class, anothe r p l ace, had noth i ng to d o with the was said in the laws but to i obey t h em, and yet those persons compo s ing that class nad merit s and virtues quite e qual to other classes in more favoured positions in our social scheme. The . working ence and unr., resented classes, who had the exist the day P t li o provide for by their labour —who were outlawed, as it were, from the civil and social rights of the wealther clasiies, ought not to be touche d b y this Bill. H e warned the Government to be guided by what had taken place in Ireland when the militia was en rolled. On two occasions outrages and outbreaks fol lowed close upon the heels of the expiration of those enrolments. He did not mean for a moment to assert that there was any indisposition on the part of the unrepresented dames, in case of threatened invasion, to come forward and lend their aid to defend their shores. Such a feeling, he was satisfied, did not exist, for very recently when danger was surmised the labouring people were the first to come forward in defence of their country. If real danger occurred the ballot would not be needed ; the people, as one man, would rise to hurl back any insult and aggression which might be contem plated. The people would, however, naturally feel, if the Legislature called upon them to servo, that the Le gislature ought first to recognise their just claims. He would only allude to ono circumstance more; that in this country there was a largo and a growing body which was conscientiously opposed to military service altogether. Christianity and history from their earliest ages preeented traces of individuals who had a rooted objection on principle to war, and everything that had reference to war. These parties ought not to have their wishes and principles entirely disregarded, nor bo punished, as they would be, on account of their con scientious scruploe. There would always be persons who upheld what were called peace doctrines; those persona fwatid At mint Av t 0, wry 01450! vernment, therefore, could very well affird to Risk?) some r. cognition of the rights of conscience. He trussed the House would listen to the dictates of jestice, and not call upon that individual to do the daty of a soldier to whom it refused the rights of a citizen.—(Hear.) Mr. WALPOLE said the Hon. Gentleman had ad vocated his proviso oa two groirnd,-; the first, that everybody compelled to serve in the militia should have the rigtes of citizenship extended to him, and the se cond that there were certain persons who objected to military service altogether, and who would, therefore, be injured by the operation of this Bill. With regard to the first, whether the rights of citizenship should be conferred on those who were required to serve in the militia, that was too largo a question to be discussed on that Bill. It could only be discussed as part of a large measure which embraced all points connected with the circumstances under which persons should serve—what regulations they should be under—what their occupa tions. and whether having so served they should be en titled to have a vote for the county. But the way in which the Hon. Gentlemen had worded his proviso pat it criito out of the power of the Committee to admit it, e.s if admitted it could only be as part of a more ex tended measure. The effect of such a clause would be to narrow the basis of the militia very materially, and to throw the pressure on particular classes. Tnis was so serious a matter that it could not be entertained for a moment. Then, as to the Honourable Gentleman's second objection—that persons who conscientiously ohjected to servo would decline to serve, and would thereby lose their rights of citizenship. But he appre hended there was a much graver question mooted in the last matter. For if it was to be considered a good ob jection that persons were to be excused who had a re ligious objection to military service—then they ought to be disposed to extend the principle, and say, " We will not contribute our services personally, and we will refuse to pay towards getting others to do that which on con scientious grounds we decline to do." If conscientioua' scruples were to be admitted, they would be equally urged with equal force, whether as respected person or purse. The question was so much larger than was in tended by the proviso, and as the effect of it would be to narrow the basis of the militia to the great injury of the country, he felt convinced the House would refuse to adopt it. Mr. MO WATT was not surprised at the anxiety felt by the Government to shtfile by any means through the Bill.—(Hear, hear, and Ohl) He acquitted the Hon. Gentleman opposite of having originated such a mass of contradictions and absurdities as were contained within the four corners of the Act. He should like Govern ment to explain why Ireland was excluded from the Bill. He could not fancy the reason why the Government had not thought tight to trust the people of Ireland with arms in time of peace; but why Scotland, also, had been excluded, he could not understand. For such a trum pery measure of defence as the present, it was not worth while to incite the popular hatred against the very name of a militia. The only persons who would enrol them selves in the proposed militia would belong to the dan gerous classes, and they would be found good for little or nothing. The Bill was disgraceful not only to the Government bat to the House; and he thought the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department ought to re consider the proposed proviso, if he was sincere in saying that he wished to obtain a class of men on whom de pendence could be placed. The O'GORMAN MAHON said he only rose to pro test against the remark of the Lion. Member with re ference to Ireland. The Hon. Member had only re peated the unfair and illiberal assertion, which had from time to time found its way into some of the newspapers of the country. He could not understand upon what grounds a proposition which had been originated by the last Government, and supported by the present, could be designated as odious and disgraceful. When the lion. Member insinuated that Ireland had been omitted from the measure because her Majesty could not trust the Irish people with arms, he could only say that if her Majesty was under that apprehension it must have arisen from some misinformation from persons having the same opinions as the lion. Member. The English nation would do injustice to Ireland if they believed that every man in Ireland would not rise in arms if' the country was invaded.—(Hear, hear.) He thought they ought all to endeavour to make a measure which had been declared necessary for the common weal as perfect as possible. Mr. MO WATT said the Hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that he had spoken of her Majesty. The O'GORMAN AARON'Her Majesty's Govern ment. Mr. MOWATT said that the Hon. Member ought to have addressed his complaint to the Government, for all that he (Mr. Mowatt) bad stated was a wish that the Government should state why they had thought the people of Ireland could not be trusted with arms. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Hon. Member who had just sat down had stated that the Go vernment were anxious to shuffle through this Bill. If that were so there was no one so determined to disap point them as the lion. Member, for ho had done all he could to prevent the clause being carried. The Hon. Member had also stated that he was ashamed to be found night after night taking part in the' discussion. The remedy for that was so obvious that he was surprised that the Hon. Member had not shown his sense of shame by adopting it.—(A laugh.) With respect to the proviso, he objected to it on the ground that it made a most invidious distinction between different classes of her Mjesty's subjects. Every subject was interested in the defence of the nation, and yet the proviso almost raised the inference that only those persons entitled to vote for Members of Parliament were interested in that defence. That portion of the community entitled to the right of voting wan surely not the least respectable part. According to the Hon. Member for Falmouth, none but the lowest vagabonds would enter the milit e, and yet the proposal of the lion. Member for Oldham would comp:l many of the respectable classes of the community to associate themselves and serve with those vagabonds. He objected, the rAxe, to the proposal on these sufficient grounds. But he had another objection to it. A misapprehension existed with regard to the rights of the subjects of this country. There was a distinction between political and civil rights. With a view to good government, certain classes were entrusted with political rights, not granted to others. All classes, however, were entitled to the same civil rights; therefore all were tipsily interested in the detente of those rights. The objection of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State that the proviso would narrow the basis upon which the defence of the country ought to rest, and that it would limit the number of citizens who might be compelled to serve, was con clusive.—(llear.) He could scarcely understand the reason put for ward by the Hon. Member for Oldham in favour of his proviso on the ground of conscientious scruples. Ho was the last person to object to well founded scruples, but he did not see how the proviso would protect persons who had such scruples from being called on to serve or find a substitute. Mr. FOX explained, with reference to those persons who conscientiously objected to the use of arms, that his motion would so far protect them, for being on the electoral list they might withdraw their name, and thus avoid being c illrd on to serve. The ATTORNEY GENERAL did not think •it would be desirable or reasonable to allow persons to es cape from serving their country in that or any other way. There were many who had conscientious objec tions to paying taxes, and thousands of objections might be taken to the performance of duties which all classes wore bound to fulfil. But, if these objections were to be taken into account, every obligation might be frittered away; and on these grounds he hoped the Committee wooed not entertain the proviso. Mr. HUME thought the proviso open to objection, and suggested to his lion. Friend to alter it so as to pro vide that every person who should be drawn by ballot and should serve in the militia should be entitled to have his name entered on the list of Parliamentary elec tors in the borough cr county in which he resides. . The O'GORMAN MAHON explained. Mr. PACKE objected to the proviso of the Honour able Member for Oldham. The ballot would necessarily be harsh under any circumstances, but that proviso would increase its harshness tenfold. Mr. FOX said he could not accede to the suggestion of his Hun. Friend the Member for Montrose, because he did not think that the fact of a person having been engaged in the military service offered the best ground for an extension of the franchise. He should not press to a division the proviso he had moved after the opi nions which had been expressed on the subject by those Hon. Members to whom he had looked for support. Mr. M. GIBSON said he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Homo Department whether he meant to give the Committee an opportunity of considering his proposed list of ex emptions by bringing that list under their consideration. Gibson) believed that the exemptions contained in be Fo und 42d of George 111., would not in many instances Mr- suitable at the present day. M x era p . 0 n A g L P T O h L a E t I s is a t i d comprised that he would Peers read who the were l dis charging i s tof public in in the other House of Parliament; o pe u rs h o a n l s f- s p e a rvi ; n served four years in the officers serving or having other forces of the Crown; officers g eo n ea t " universities; cleprgettycnaeb:nm;ainslpaieetairaisa;ornirnseasildieenentsmedenatboetpareeeacthhe; constables and officers;. articled clerks and ap prentices; seamen and em ployed in the dockyards gunwards of the Ordnance; persons free of the Company atermen, and any poor man who had more than eofch7lmdebriOrnpienrswonesdlock not understand why a and luteteblroanvlcellcieartsaiannlyy Mr. M. GIBSON said he could Peer should not purchase a substitute a t n exemption. other member of the community, Bat w la l take the sense of the Committee against that o It was also proposed that every poor more than one child should be exempted. e had Gibson) wished to know who was to be considered a poor man? Sir C. BIIII,RELL—A day labourer. Mr. M. GIBSON continued—lt appeared that water men were also to be exempted. But watermen had been superseded by the engineersand other persons employ e d in steamers; an d it was to that latter class rather than to watermen that any such favour ought to be granted. There was to be a further exemption on behalf of resident members of the universities. But he could not understand why persons who resided in the universiti should for their own amusement , as sometimes happened, r not be obliged to purchase substitutes. He should also observe that he could not see why that exemption should be confined to members of the universities of Oxford Hon. Cambridge. Ho would sugget to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment the propriety of reconsidering the whole of that subject, and embodying his views with respect to it in a separate clause. Mr. WALPOLE said that any Hon. Member who mi b gh e tohjettothepropos a l of the amGpolve opportunity n o i n ty th: subject of exemption would have f bringing forward any amendment he might think proper. Mr. BRIGHT said, ho did not see why medical men 5149414 act be el"WPteas as be believed thane was no THE SUN, LONDON, class better entitled to the indulgent consideration of the Legislature. Mr. WALPOLE said, that the Government would not a il)j b cc e t u of those o t x o 0 ra g i p v t e i 0 e . i r Butbrs t h c e o r n e s p i d e a t t r e a d ti , o t n h a t t o a t n h y e Hon. Member might bring forward a proposal embody ing his views on the questio n. Colonel THOMPSON said, he thought there ware reasons why the Government ought to great an exemp tion to the members of the Society of Friends. The proviso moved by Mr. FOX was then negatived without a division. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY moved a proviso to the effect that no married man should be drawn by ballot, and no unmarried man, except be was between the ages of 20 and 25. There were in England Wales, according to the last censtv, 8,753,000 males, of whom 800,000 were between the ages of 20 and 25; and of these upwards of 600,000 were unmarried. Now, ho believed that that latter class was a sufficiently large one for the purposes of that Act, and that they were the fittest persons to be brought within its operation. Supposing a married men was drawn by ballot, who was to defray the cost of maintaining his wife and family? He hoped the proviso would receive the consideration of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Homo Department. Mr. HENLEY thought his Hon. Friend should have come prepared with some statement to aid them in as certaining the number of unmarried males between the ages of 20 and 25 years. Some data of that kind should be supplied; otherwise the adoption of the proviso might narrow their margin very inconveniently. The reason why they exempted married men having more than one child was, that in the event of a man with a large family being drawn the burden would fall heavily on the parish. Mr. Vi7AKLEY was opposed to all exemptions, as well in the case of a peer as of the poor man. It they were to have a ballot at all, let it fall equally. Why should unmarried men be visited by a penalty because they were unmarried? Many of them did not marry from provident motives, and if these exemptions were allowed, they were certain to be followed by a vast number of improvident marriages.—(Laughter.) In d, ed, if there was an exemption at all, he would put in a claim for the medical practitioners.—(Hear,and a laugh.) Sir G. STRICKL AND was in favour of exempting married persons; although he should say, strictly speak ing, the peer as well as the peasant should be liable. If persons of the present day had seen the heartrending scenes that he witnessed, arising out of the ballot con scriptions, the alarm would be far greater than at present. Mr. PETO said that, if necessary, ho would prefer an augmentation of the standing army to the ballot con scription. The industrial classes would raise an outcry little expected when the Bill should become Yew. Mr. SANDARS supported the proviso. Mr. MO WATT thought that as only 50,000 men would be required in the next year, there would be no necessity to have recourse to the ballot. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said he found that, of the 8,750,000 of males, there would be about 1,600,000 found between the ages of 20 and 25 years who were not married; and that would leave a sufficiently amp'e margin without calling on the married men. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to recal the consideration:of the House to:the point before it. He thought, with great respect, that the principle which had been laid down by his Hon. Friend (Sir H. Willoughby) was one of a very vicious character. In cur system of taxation nothing had been more produc• tive of annoyance and trouble than these exemptions, and therefore it would be wise and judicious not to ex tend their operation.—(Hear, hear.) If the exemptions which at present existed by law were not adapted to the times in which they lived, he was sure that the Committee would be able to deal with them. In the first instance, they ought to consider that, by thus adding to the list of exemptions, they much diminished the area of service. They were acting, in his opinion, most un justly in pressing these exemptions. Upon these grounds, but principally and chiefly because he was entirely op posed to the principle of exemption, he felt it his duty to oppose the amendment. Mr. V. SMITH was glad to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman say he was opposed to these exemptions. The exemption of married men, he thought, was the worst that could be devised. The Hon. Member for Evesham, by his amendment, would induce unmarried men to make improvident marriages. The limitation of the Act to the age 'of 35 years would of itself exempt a great number of married men. Mr. MOW ATT thought that the exemption proposed was one that would afford real practical relief to society generally. The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment ... 53 Against i r t i ty against the amendment- 159 106 Mr. M. GIBSON then proposed to add a proviso to the clause, exempting all schoolmasters from being liable to serve in the militia. The CHAIRMAN put the question. Mr. WALPOLE said that such a proviso would be better moved at the end of the 18th clause than in the present one. If the Right Hon. Gentleman postponed his proposition until then he would be prepared to state his opinions upon the proposi . i en. Mr. M. GIBSON said, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would agree to submit the list of exemptions he pro posA, so that they could have an opportunity of giving their opinion upon them, and consider whether additions might not be made to them, he would agree to his sug gestion. But otherwise he was disposed to' think this the fitting time for bringing forward his proposition. Lord SEYMOUR said that every exemption was a compromise; and, as they had heard much lately from the head of the Government on the subject of compro miles, he wished to ask whether the Right Hon. Gentle than had a distinct clause of exemptions to propose? Mr. WALPOLE said that all these exemptions were contained in the Act of the 42d Geo. 111., and were in corporated in the present Bill. Lord SEYMOUR asked whether they were to have any compromise here? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that they proposed exactly the same exemptions as were con tained in the Act of Geo. 111. To increasing these ex emptions he was certainly opposed. When, however, a fair opportunity arose for discussing those points, the Government were not indisposed to consider these ex• emptioos of the Act which were revived in the present Bill. He fully agreed in the principle of compromises, for, without them, he believed that nothing could be carried in that House. After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, The Committee again divided, when there appeared— For the proviso ... 86 164 Against it .. •-• ••• ••• Majority against it ... —7B On our return to the gallery we found Mr. GIBSON moving, as a proviso to the clause, " That no peer of this realm shall be exempt from serv ing in the militia raised under this Act, anything in the first-recited Act, or any other Act to the contrary not withstanding."—(Lead 'cheers from the Opp osition.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that all the exemptions had been adopted atter much consi deration. He could not adopt provisos brought forward in this crude manner, and should therefore oppose the motion of the Right lion. Gentleman. Mr. BRIGHT supported the proviso, and insisted that if the Members of the House of Commons were obliged to serve, there was no reason why peers should not be compelled to servo also.—(Cheers-) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected to the question being brought forward without fair notice. The privilege of exemption from serving in the militia was incidental to the peerage in other circum stances than those which were connected with Paella went. Take, for instance, the exemption of a peer from serv i ng on juries, though Members of the House of Commons were not exempt—(Yes, and No) —at all events when Parliament was not sitting. He contended that this was a question upon which the Right lion. Gentleman ought to have given fair notice. But instead of that he had given no notice at all. He and his friends had loaded the paper with ameadments upon the various dallies of the Bill; but not one was there upon this subject, which had nothing whatever to do with the clause at present before the Committee. Mr. GIBSON would be sorry to take any one by sur prise, but he had made several appeals to the Home Se cretary to submit to the House the list'of exemptions he hest to propose—(Hear, hear)—in order that the sense of the House might be taken upon each separate exemp tion. The Right Hon. Gentleman told him, however, that he would not do so, and that it was for him (Mr. Gibson) to move provisos of exemption. In taking this course, therefore, he was only acting upon the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Lord PALMERSTON said, the only way is which this exemption formed part of the Bill was by reference to the Act 42i Geo. 111. Now the ballot would not take place, at the earliest, until the beginning of next year, and they had been told that in the next session of Parliament a Consolidation Bill was to be introduced. Ile thought, therefore, it would be better to reserve the consideration of these exemptions until then. Mr. V. S MITH—If the objection of. the Government to this proviso rested simply on the ground that notice had not been given, and they wished to take time for its consideration, then he would advise his Right Honourable Friend not to press his motion further at that moment. Mr. EWART urged that that was the right time to press the amendment, unless the Government gave an assurance that there was a chance of their altering the 42d of George 111., which contained the list of ex emptions. Mr. WAKLEY, understanding from the expression which had fallen from the Chaneellor of the Exche quer, that the exemptions should be considered on a future orgd his e occasion—(Cries of "No, no," and loud laughter) Right Hon. Friend to postpone his proviso. Colonel SIBTHORP hoped the - Chancellor of the from Exchequer h o e u r l would aide.not complyytr We have with now,the exclaimed made the o the o . and Gallant Member, the high—the upper hand of Power, and I call u o pon ' him not to give way. The A Co gxE m aia m ilso i t t r t ii e tt e y : divi .. d . ed, when there appeared— For Mr. Gibson 's proviso ... ... 96 gaunt the pro .. v . i. Mr. WAKLEY exempted fro s m o medical men should m b o e ved a ... 162 proviso, to the effect that WALPOLE said that the ' the — operation of o n u o t juries, exemptionsut e n it a n d d eG e o s h ao i the m ß r. ill. m fo e rm re e ly r Act; and already tee ee they a t dn h y a o should then extend those exemptions. Mr. BRIGHT observed that medical m exempted from servile?. resew' why they should not be equally serving in the militia. exempted from Colonel SIBTHORP thought that medical men should net bo treated as a body distinct from the rest of the community. Mr. WYLD said hought that medical men had : v e t ana e b i r ewe n l oeeemudrtl Government t were t h e btgogeo eloicao toe xeniptiou in that matter. TUESDAY r Mr. OSWALD also supported the proviso. The Committee then divided, when there appeared— For Mr. Wakley's proviso 77 Against it 167 Majority against the proviso 90 Mr. PETO moved the addition of a proviso at the end of the clause, that members of the Soci et y of Friends called Quakers should not be liable to serve in the militia. that under the 42d of G e o rge 111., The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said c. 90, the deputy lieu tenants were empower e d t o p r ovide substitutes for Quakers. The Gov ernment h a d co nsidered the subject long before it had been su b m itt e d by the Hon. Gentle man opposite, and they did not see any reason why Quakers should be exempted from the necessity of sup plying substitutes. But at the same time they consi dered that that part of the clause of the Act of George 111 , by which defaulters under it were committed to prison, was not in accordance with the spirit of the pre sent age, and they therefore meant to do away with it, and to free Quakers by means of a proviso inserted in the Bill from the liability of imprisonment. He trusted, therefore, the Hon. Gentleman would not press his amendment. Mr. BRIGHT had prepared a proviso on the subject, which would have had the effect of exempting Quakers from the obnoxious portions of that clause. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that their object was that Quakers should not be placed in a worse position than others. The proviso was not pressed. Mr. M. GIBSON moved the following proviso to this clause:—" Provided always, that notwithstandi n g the first recited Act, or any other Act, no private man cho sen by ballot to serve in the militia shall be compelled to take any oath that he will faithfully serve in the militia for the term of five years, or until he be sooner discharged." He considered it little better than blas phemy to compel a man to take an oath which he might not intend to observe if he could possibly escape from it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the Committee would not be led away into the discus sion of considerations which applied to all oaths, and was not by any means peculiar to the militia oath. Mr. BRIGHT denied that there was any resemblance between the case of a witness in a court ofjustice and a militiaman. This was an infamous measure, violating the first principles of morality.—(oh, ob.) Sir P. WOOD hoped great advances had been made on the subject of oaths since 1802.—(Hear, hear.) Since then four thousand Custom-house oaths had been abo lished, and compulsory oaths altogether had been done away with. If the militiaman could say he w as a Quaker, or Separatist, or had been (although now an Infidel), he need not take the oath; but if he were an Independent, he must take the oath.—(Hear, hear.) A person had been imprisoned four years on account of an objection to take the oath. There were numbers con stantly increasing who objected to oaths. The decla rations required were really ab sur d. Th e Ki ng 's trum peter King's chimney- sweeper h a d b een called upon n a to nd de t c h l e ar declare that they would not use t h e i r offices against the Church of England.—(A. laugh.) The Committee then divided-- For the clause as it stood ... 156 Against it ... 79 Majority ... 77 Mr. WAKLEY said it was admitted the compulsory clauses could not be operaiee this year. He therefore moved that the Chairman should report progress. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the Hon. Gentleman hardly dealt fairly with the House. The clause had been discussed before, and the Com mittee had decided on it. The principle also had been discussed several times. Reiterated appeals were con stantly made from Hon. Gentlemen on the other aide of the House to expedite the business of the country, and under these circumstances he could not help saying that a motion like this almost partook of the character of vexatious.--(Hear.) If the Hon. Member persisted in so unseasonable a motion, therefore, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should divide the Committee. Mr. BRIGHT said the House had not been dis cussing the clause, as the Right Hon. Gentleman stated, but the exemptions. The division was hurried on in the early part of the evening, and there was only a majority of 17. As it was necessary, therefore, to take another division on the ballot, it would be better to take it on that clause. It was not intended to adopt factious pro ceedings—(oh!)—but to take a discussion when the House was fresh. The Committee then divided— For the motion ... 40 Against it ..• ••• ••• 179 Majority ...-139 The announcement was received with cheers. Mr. WILLIAMS begged to appeal once more to the Government not to proceed further. He moved that the Chairman do now leave the chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, after the unmistakeable manner in which the sense of the Committee had been expressed, he confessed he was as tonished at the course pursued by the Hon. Gentleman. If he thought he could defeat the Bill by such a course he was mistaken. He might inconvenience the Govern ment—he might prevent important business being pro secuted, and h e m ight protract the duration of the ses sion, but th e Bill wou ld become law.—(Cheers.) He was always anxious to defer to the wishes of a majority, or any considerable party, but he felt he bad in this case only one duty, and that was to persevere.—(Cheers.) Mr. GRENVILLE BERKELEY said be had throughout opposed the Bill, but he would not be a party to any factious opposition like the presee. The gallery was agiin cleared, but no division took place. . _ _ The clause (16), es amended, was agreed to, and The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob tained leave to sit again on Thursday next- The Ecclesiastical C ourts C r i m i na l Jurisdiction Bill went through Committee pro forma. The Apprehension of Deserters Bill was read a third time. The Further Extension County Courts Bill went through Committee, previous to which some conversa tion occurred between Mr. Walpole and Mr. Fitzroy re lative to a clause which had been inserted and consented to inadvertently by Mr. Walpole, the effect ,of which was said to be to r a i se the salaries of the county court judges from 1,0001. to 1,2001. per annum. Mr. Walpole intimated his intention to oppose the further progress of this clause until assurance had bean obtained of the con sent of the Crown. EVENING, THE PATENT LAW AMENDMENT BILL. To a question, Mr. HINLE)I" objected to send the whole subject to a Committee, because that would be tantamount to post poning legislation for the year. The Bat was the n read a second time. The Public Work s Bi ll was read a secon d t ime. The House adjourned at Half-past One. Government last ni o ,, r h its militia. A triumph THE MIL ITIA. BILL. Unfortunately f it ever be put in nO, the obnoxious t carried, by a division of 127 to own popularity and peace, with a vast amount of° this doubtful character, combined frinciple of conscription for the the po , aibiiity of actill-feeling out of doors, and with for" resistance to the ballot, should than a defeat; for a d efeat can only be regarded as worse the bone of contentioe eat would at least have removed conscription really amounts Anybody who considers what tion thus far in the di °lints to, the fate of the conscrip tion the general seussion of the proposed militia, regular army and !la abandonment of the principle in the why so crazy and iYijAwili be at a loss to understand Government ound a craft as the present The conscriptio is a undoubtedly is chose to run on that rock. than common forms lotteryof slavery , of life, and is so far worse most heavily on the slavery, inasmuch as it falls and most occupied me most b industrious, most responsible, principle in the Prom ers of society. The fate of the before the House is aigrese of the measure or measures the general rule of eificant. The ballot, which was Bill, was subsequently John Russell's first Militia the Militia Bill modified by that Minister. In was degraded from its proposed by his successors, the ballot tional rank, as the last tprosition as the rule, to an excep tional reading of the Bi lTource. In order to secure the source, was postponed tiii , the ballot, even as a last re the new Parliament silo. next year, that is, till after provision of the Bill. The have had time to revise this the secondary place, this e conscription thus reduced to tional mood, was still future tense, and this condi ground as a principle, in the Bill, retaining its to come into practice. What most unlikely ever natural to inquire, was there t peculiar sacredness, it is citizens, in a time of profound te the right of compelling employments and duties, and d Peace, to forsake their uncongenial employment of a a opt what might be the honourable service be injured soldier? Why should an sion, and this measure be hampered the stigma of compul element of unpopularity? se rdered with an additional not to come into force till January that the provision was a useless bravado to insist on leaving I, 1853, it looks like in the Bill. It is difficult indeed to the word " ballot" shall ever again see an Englishmanto imagine that we home against his will to a military dragged from his life, but the mere existence of thisYfor pseudo-military sure robs the service of that voluntaryeature in the mea sure its chief merit, and character which en which it • have been suffered to rest. might safely When George Stephenson, or some gineering Titans, was asked whether other of our en tunnel under the Straits of Dover, h e It were possible to only a question of money. Now, re lire that it was union with France is only a question our underground same may be said of the means of defence of money, the dangerous neighbours. It is only td against our and plenty will offer, especially when r aise - the bounty, one that the service will begin and endlt is a hundred to drills, a few parades, and one annual inspection, with a dozen weather permitting. If 51., or a Penn the period of engagement, will not do, ?Pt; day during the will; and it is go soldiering only fair that they who do not choose to themselves should pay those w ho Willand that at the market price of the work. Th is is the principle on which our army and our navy are recruited; is found to answ er ver y fairl y , the and it rather on the side of the p ublic, which h jection being the cost, than the sol2ier or the sailor, grumbles at w to serve for less th an the pay of an y ind ustrious me- h 0 is ready me chanic. Mr. Walp ole must surel y have f the moment the exi stence of an y othe r forceorgotten for than that night that, described in his br ief, when he ar g ued last inasmuch as 80, 000 m en were to be r aised, it was neces sary to have the pow er of the ballot in order t o secure the certainty of that number of men. More tha n 150,000 men arc found ready to serve her M ; ----nl j esty, no t by a few days' drill once a year, in fine weather merely and at holiday seasons, but every day of the year, for consecutive years, winter and summer, in many frosts and tinder tropical tuns, in stormy seas climes, constantly exposed to all the Canadian miseries, and deadly dan gers that embitter the life of the civilian only by their occasional or possible occurrence;—they are this found to do for what? For pay that any labouring ueighboth9o 9 t .. ____,.. gardener iu the 1 . 41 . 1 _ 14449 P 1914 . Yf %tic; ‘hr o y in MAY 18, the face of the man that offaed it. If this vast amount and dire reality of work is done for pay, why should not pay be even more efficacious for the mere child's play, the game of soldiering, contemplated by the Bill now in the Commons? If counties and pay will an swer the purpose, surely it is a needless exhibition of the ultima ratio to parade before a peaceful and loyal people the terrible apparatus of the conscription. The English man will ofmn do spontaneously what he could never bo forced to do, and it is not at all unlikely that many will refuse to volunteer, merely from the feeling that they might perhaps be made to serve against their will, and that they may very likely have to stand in the same rank with involuntary conscripts, or worse still, with a low class of substitutes. After all, it is a question whether the conscription is any longer possible, and whether the volunteer principle is not the utmost limit of enlistment in these days. How are we to keep hold of the militia conscript in the long in tervals of service? Mr. Cobden possibly makes out our labourers and artisans to be worse than they are, when he says that they will volunteer for the -sake of the bounty, and then invest the money in a passage to the States; but we will not answer for the loyal of men who may conceive themselves the victims of an unjust mea sure. At all events, if a man is drawn for the militia and hates the service, but cannot or will not pay for a substitute, there is nothing whatever to pre vent him from transferring himself, his family, his property, and his allegiance to another Power. No writ ne exeat regno will hover over the heads of the reluctant militiamen during the many months of freedom that must necessarily intervene between the closing inspection in autumn and the first drill in sum mer. In this country we have no such system of sur veillance as there is in France. Here the ballot will be inefficacious unless the conscript is kept under guard the whole year. There is nothing to prevent him returning home the day that he is drawn, selling his furniture by auction, taking solemn leave of his friends, toad departing amid the condolence or the congratulations of his neigh bours, for any part of the wide earth that he may think more eligible than his own country under such circumstances. England is now the easiest place in the whole world for a man to get out of, as is evident from the fact of many thousand Germans and other foreigners coming to England as the most di rect, smoootb, and cheap channel to America or any other transmarine country. Any man, indeed, with 101. in his pocket may make np his mind after breakfast to try the valley of the Mississippi, and by walking to the London Docks may engage a berth, purchase a cem plete equipment from some of the neighbouring out fitters, find himself at the Noro by teatime, and by 12 P.m., if the wind favours, sailing merrily down the Channel. What is to hold a people who are fast beeo. ! ming birds of pasersge, alvrayes oil the vving t ever flitting and fleeting? No legislation is so in j urious as that which aims at a power which the State does not actually possess, and can never acquire; but that is the fault which, as it seems to us, has been deliberately and ob stinately committed in this instance.—Times. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. PORTSMOUTH, MONDAY.—Tbe Queen, 116, Captain Wise, will be ready to come out of dock on Friday, when it is reported she proceeds immediately to Plymouth, to be paid down. The Philomel, 8, Commander Forbes, awaits orders at Spithead. WOOLWWH, MAY 17.—The Herald, 28, Captain Henry M. Denham, is still at Greenhithe, with her tender, the Torch steam-vessel, Lieutenant-Commander Chimmo. The interest taken in the South Sea explor ing expedition has followed it to Grcenhithe, and among the numerous visitors who have gone on board the ves sels since they loft Woolwich were Mr. Augustus Staf ford, M.P.,Secretary to the Admiralty , Mr. Adderle y , M.P., Mr. Robert Stephenson, M.P., and Mr. Ricardo, M.P. The cards of admission to the booths and standing , 1 room under and immediately adjoining the slip from which the Agamemnon, 90, is to be launched on Saturday next, the 22d inst., about three o'clock r.!., have been printed, and the west side of the slip has been reserved for the Boar d of Admiralty, Commodore Henry Eden, and their friends. The booths and standing room on the east side have been placed at the disposal of the heads of the various de partments of the dockyard, and it is calculated they will distribute 800 cards, each to admit one person. The whole of the arrangements for the launch of the Aga memnon appear to be of a better description than any ever witnessed at this dockyard. The woodwork of the booths is not carried higher than 5 feet, and all the seats are under that height, so that thousands of the public who will have standing-room on the parade-ground on the west side and on the east side, and on the gently sloping pavement in front of her bows, may have an excellent sight. The admission of parties having cards to the booths and standing room under the slip will be at the rear of the seats, which which will be a very great improvement over the plan hitherto adopted of passing to the seats betwixt the spectators and the vessel. The Dockyard Battalions will commence their drills this evening, the following having been issued for their guidance:— " BRIGADE ORDERS. "Adjutant's-office, May 12. "The drills for the season will commence on Monday evening next, at half-past six o'clock, with the Artillery and Ist company of the Boat Battalion. " The Infantry and 23 company Boat Battalion on Tuesday evening at the same hoar. " The Artillery to havo their waist-belts without bay onets. "The Boat Brigade vra;st-belts and swords. -- - - - - " The Infantry svith carabines. " Dress—blue cloth with forage caps. " By order of the Colonel-Commandant." DEVONPORT, SUNDAY.—Rochester, lighter, Savage master, sailed on Saturday, with stores for Plymouth. Sprightly tender arrived to-day with supernumeraries from Portsmouth and the Marine Artillery for the Buzzard. Sanspareil steamer will be taken out for the trial of her engines on Tuesday or Wednesday next, manned from the Impregnable and St. George, with some extra riggers from the dockyard. The Basilisk came into harbour on Sunday evening. FIRE IN PORTSMOUTH DOCKYARD PORTSMOUTH, MONDAY.--About eight o'clock this morning a fire broke out in one of the departments of this dockyard, which, but for its Wifely discovery and theimmense exertions promptly made to extinguish it , might have resulted in the destruction of an incalcu lable amount of national property, and crippled for a long time the efficiency of Portsmouth as a naval depot. From information we have gathered on the spot on per sonal inspection, it appears that while the process of boiling the tar for tarring ropeyarns was going on i n th e tarring-house (which is one section of a large building forming the white-yarn and tarred-yard store in the centre of the dockyard), the bottom of ono of the two copper tar boilers gave way, and the contents ran into the fire, giving out an immense volume of flame. Four ropemakers, a boy, and one stoker were in the tarring house at the time; these instantly rushed out and gave an alarm; the fire bell was rung, the police were called, the engines manned and run up to the scene of the disaster; and such is the system and order under which these matters are managed in this dockyard, thet within three minutes after the alarm was given one of the ropemakers' four engines (which were the first at the fire) was got into play. About 40 en gines, altogether, were soon at work, and there being a good supply of water and thousands of hands, within the hour (from eight to nine) the flames were extin guished and the damage ascertained. Nothing could exceed the praiseworthy exertions of all the parties en gaged in this work; it was suprising, as well as in the highest degree admirable—every officer and man was at his post, and plied the means at his command with a vigour perfectly indescribable. The result was the saving of,a most important section, if not the greater por tion, of the dockyard. The building containing the offices before enumerated is about 40 feet high, as many in width, the partitions being of brick, with iron-bars to the windows. In this building at the time of the fire were about 1,500 tons of tarred yarn, 14 or 15 cwt. of yarn in the tarring house (the seat of the fire), which was destroyed, and in an adjoining store of the same edifice were several tar barrels, and three full on es, besi d e s the stock in use at the time of the accid ent. Had this im mense inflammable mass ignited, there is no doubt but that the Dockyard would hav e been ono wide-spread scene of devestating flame , on one side of the tarring house being a long range of roperies, extending nearly the entire depth of the yard, with low wooden i sheds within a dozen feet of the tarring-house, timber in m mense loads strewn about and stacked around, and on the other a long range of offices, police store, armoury, &c. How such a building as one in which tar . seems h to be constantly boiling could have been . allowed . such a central position seems perfectly unintelligibleh.. Th boilers in which the tar is heated are of copper, otldiensgee about five buckets each, and it was the ofirw . est . w h .ch vessels which burst. The part of the building ihn The they were is gutted, and the roof burnt throng . The preservation of the other sections . of the building . - seems truly providential. Admiral Sir Thomas Bhriggs Cora mander-in-Chief, was among .the givingfirst on! e spot, and most prompt and energetic.who was Rear - Admiral Superintendent Pre.sccoi. t h t is commands. confined to his bedroom be! disposition, ca h u a se s ordered a court of inquiry . to investiat LB of the disaster. The Court will report the Admiral r the of p the e r - Superintendent the result of their exhlamination which we believe will fully exonerate far:: Aamneumalbel sons employed in . the tarring - house. seamen of the ships in dock . under refit u i e n e n th ) were a rd most pecially those of her Mdajesty's ship under their respective promptly on the spot , an they'.mortant service by their officers, rendered. eminently of the burnin adjoining agility in scaling the roofs , 9) cdiments o a ths free flood buildings, breaking assistance. The police of water, and rendering similar force, too, under their . director, t L h i e ou o t e e c n a e s n io t n Ha T ll, h ß e . f N 01 .., performed essential service on blished • lowing " orders" have been e Victory, in Portsmouth u Harbour, May 17,1852. " General Memo—The best thanks of myself and Rear-Admiral Superintendent Prescott, C. 8., are here with tendered to the officers and men of her Majesty's *p an d vessels at this port who were present assisting Bahtithaextinguishment ot the . fire in the . dockyard this morning for their energetic efforts, which were happily crowned with success. " THOUS BRIGGS, "Admiral and Commandor•in-Chief.' " To the respective Captains and Commanders, &c." "Portsmouth Dockyard, May 17. if Mem o,--The Admiral Superintendent has received w i t h the greatest satisfaction reports of the energetic an d excellent conduct of all classes—officers, subordinate officers, police, artificers, and labourers belonging to the dockyard on the occarion of the fire this morning. The i r exertions were happily crowned with prompt mow , ( ind the fire, which first threatened serious 0911- 1862. sequences, was extinguished without doing material injury. " The Admiral Superintendent will not fail to make known to the L girds Commissioners of the Admiralty his sense of the praiseworthy behaviour of those under his command, _ _ _ " PRESCOTT, Admiral Superintendent." We are happy to say no accident of moment occurred at this fire. A man named Tyler fell whilst at work aloft upon the building, but we believe is not seriously injured. Such a building as the one gutted, if permitted in futuro in so thickly surrounded a snot, should be of iron or otherwise fireproof. THE BOOKSELLERS' ASSOCIATION. Yesterday, according to appointment, the discussion of the rules of the Booksellers' Association was resumed, at Stratbeden House, before Lord Campbell, Mr. Grote, and the Dean of St. Paul's. On this occasion the undersellers attended, or were represented by Mr. Griffin, Mr. Perrin, Mr. Chapman, Mr. Bickers, and Mr. Bush. The arbitrators having taken their seats at one o'cicck precisely, Lord Campbell called on the complainants to begin. Mr. Bickers commenced and went over, for about twenty minutes, the usual common-places about free trade,•exploded systems, monopolies, and the like. He was followed by Mr. Chapman and Mr. Bush, both of whom gave in stances of the " coercion " practiced by the publishers to put down underselling. Mr. Griffin endeavoured to show that the association was an illegal combination, but was stopped by Lord Campbell. a n Mn e h a e s c t h e e r s Manchester, booksellersstated that several soenvleyr joinedal (si x M e i r g . 4 P o e o r r f i n t , h f e r o m m or the association from compulsion. Mr. LONGMAN, on the part of the booksellers, showed that the association had b een f ormed at a meeting,?pub licly announced and adverti se d, at which allthe trade was invited to be present. At th at pu b lic meeting the rules of the association were u nan i mous l y adopted, and the committee nominated. Mr. Longman then pro ceeded to animadvert on the recent speech of Mr. Glad stone in the House of Commons. Admitting, as he was bound to do, Mr. Gladstone's talents and general infor mation, he was surprised and grieved at the numerous inaccuracies which deformed that speech. Scarcely a single fact was correctly stated. It was represented that by " monopoly and combination" prices had been so unnaturally raised that " the sale of books had been reduced to its minimum." Now, in point of fact, the whole current had been running, for past years, in a totally opposite direction. Forty, or even thirty, years ago, every important book was first issued in quarto, at the price of two or three guineas. Now, quartos were never seen. The most celebrated works were now content to appear in octavo, and their own house (Longmans') and Mr. Murray, provided for the public, " Read ing for the Rail," and " Home and Colonial Libraries," at a cheap rate. The whole tendency had long been to greater and greater cheapness. The reason why new works did not instantly circulate in large numbers was, that people had not time to read, or shelves to hold, the multiplicity of now works that were perpetually pouring forth. As to the colonies, to which Mr. Gladstone had referred, it had long been a particular object with the leading publishers to provide supplies for the colonies at the cheapest possible rate. Mr. Longman then adverted to the taunt, that there was no one in the bookselling trade who bad now the spirit to bring out a " Johnson's Dictionary." He observed that he and Mr. Murray had long been in search of an author who could produce a new edition of Dr. Johnson's great work, but no such person could be found. - Mr. MURRAY followed Mr. Longman, and observed that however successful one underseller at the present or any other time might be, it had been found, as the result of a long experience, that underselling, generally, only ended in insolvency and ruin to all parties concerned. Mr. J. H. PARKER and Mr. BIELBY followed on the same side. Mr. SEELEY observed that one of the opponents had spoken in scorn of the Booksellers' Association, and had asked, if it had succeeded, why were we all here? He replied that the present meeting was a proof that the association had succeeded. Other attempts in former years had failed, and little had been heard of them. But in the course of the last two years the present asso ciation had proved its efficiency. It had so hampered the undersellers that Mr. Bickers was fain to write to Mr. Gladstone and to Mr. Macaulay, and to Lord Camp bell, complaining of " persecution," and talking of being " starved." This was the proof of the efficiency of the association. It was this that brought them all there to day. And let the association go on quietly in its course for another year or two, and even Mr. Bickers himself would be fain to join it. Next, it was represented that the undersellers were the advocates of free trade—of " commercial freedom." He denied it. The cause of free trade was represented by the booksellers, not by the undersellers. They, the booksellers, were really contending for commercial freedom. Let this be closely looked at. He observed that a writer on the other side said, " That which is purchased is the property of the purchaser, who has surely as mach right to sell it at a small profit as to give it away." Who denied this? Who questioned it? Not the Booksellers' Association. The truth was, that those who wanted to infringe on other people's liberty were the undersellers, not the booksellers. For thus stood the case:—A publisher brought out a new book, selling at 21s. Ho sold it to all the trade, without re serve. Among others (he was now supposing the case as :it stood three years back) he soli some to Mr. Bickers. But Mr. Bickers chose to ticket them up at 17s. Tee consequence of this was that Mr. Bickers soon sold all his copies, but none of the other booksell, rs around him could sell any. But did any ono contest Mr. B.'s right to sell them at 175., or at 103. if he pleased, or to give them away? Did any one want to prosecute him, or to visit him with fine or imprisonment? Nob had dreamed of such a thing. But presently, Mr. B. having disposed of the first supply, comes back to the publisher for some more. The publisher says, " Yuu are spoiling the sale of this book; all the trade tell me that they cannot se l l i t; you are damaging - me, the character of the book, and the trade at large ; I shall not sell you any more." Now is not the publisher at liberty to take this course? May he not have his share of " commercial freedom?" Are not his books his own to do as he pleases with? Mr. Bickers says that they are not; for when the publisher says, "I will not sell to you," Mr. B. answers, " But I will make you. I will go and com plain to Lord Campbell, to Mr. Macaulay, and to Mr. Gladstone, and I'll soon force yon to sell to me." And this is done in the name of " free trade!" Mr. S. next observed on the delusion sometimes attempted to be practised by representing this as a contest for high prices and for dear books. The two questions had no relation to each other. Books were being rapidly cheapened, by the fair competition of publisher with publisher; and this cheapening no one wished to stop. But all the cheapening proposed in the present case was that of selling a book at 263. in lieu of 293.—a cheapen ing which could have no sensible influence on the sale of books, though it might ruin,many retailers. For the re maining few minutes, however, Mr. S. said he would con fine himself to the tract which be held in his hand, and which contained the letters of nearly 100 authors, ad dressed to Mr. Parker on this question. This publication was an absolute triumph to the Booksellers' Association. He was quite willing to rest the whole case upon these letters. It might be said, " What! do you claim that as a triumph, when there are 80 authors cut of 90 who declare that you are wrong?" Yes, he still claimed it as a triumph of the most decided character. For, let it be closely looked at, and the replies would range them selves under three heads. First, those authors who t answer, generally, without reasons. The question pu t had been—Shall I sell your books to unders ellers? s lei l l o a w n Mary sale, of and hese they gentlemen The answer authors ,yes; O se ok ll s m o y f no reason or motive was a very natural one; but having answered were e t once, the t e "Oh, books to anybody who will buy h than fifty letters of this character. contro versy. There were more d of eight gentlemen, who re plied,but a selfish one, it could have no weight in this The second class consisted the right. and convincing. They letters were argumentative in the main, that the association was in They were written by Dr. Bernays, Mr. Bush nan, Mr. Coleridge, Mr. Melville, Dr. Latham, M r. Merivale, Mr. Scott, and Mr. Walcott. A single p assage assigned with from Mr. Coleridge 's letter may suffice as a sp ec i men. He says—" I think the avowal of a retailer that h e intends to sell at a low rate of profit is a good and tl s. who su ffi c ient reason for any publisher refusing to deal 2eo writes, r s at iot the e lsd him on trade terms." But there w as a third class, profit M r . from Braylf do double f decided against the association, and reasons. And these reasons showed the real tendency n l d t ere competitione 1 l era 'movement.re dao:the For retailers' per cent ., h a lf mus t re ti re, and t T he ti o s t w he il r l ha of course tend to of booksellers b in sm a ll btorven of s men that the num wortbk. the annihilation ilDatoinoabldosfontbseayosi—as ' s s r.Ki employed ngsl ey i in says,shopwork that he should ld b diniinished." And Mr. W ard says that "th by e " all means buyers are paying f o r some 800 or 900 e London book more than are ne e d e d." And the establishm en t s e remedy " to reduce th e num b er of ,the retail establishments." he proposes is He adds, also, th a t h e would extell tablishments." the " to retail tr a d e o f every kind ;" same principle " in London a l one several millions ashe considers that pro bably wasted on d up li cate retail e t per annum are s a nearly all who opp ose an d blishment s ." Tb us condemn the Booksellers' Association, and assign reasons desire tck get rid of —to exterminate,do so with a d ec lared in fact, foutefiftlis or seven-eighths of the present scriptions. Follow ou t M. w retail tradesmen of all de - B ard's plan, an d y ou would reduce London to the s i ze o f ristol, and Bristol to the size of Bedford; and ship off seven-e th pre sent traders to Van Dienaen' Land. hths of But it was time ne t conclude; and he wou ld do this by s i m ply reading a pro mise, or a hope, held out inThurs day evening journal of tact. In that journal it an Lord Camp bell, Mr. Grote, and the was said that to , hole Dean of St. Pease,' the wh ole matter might be safely committed for satisfactory settle ment and disposal." Il e trusted that this would be the case. He trusted that nothingunsettled, but wou ld be that the whole matter would now be "satisfactorily disposed of." And in this trust he left the question with confidence in their hands. Lord C AMPBELL then consulted with the other arbi trators, and announced that their opinion would be pro nounced on Wednesday next, at two o'clock. [AnyEp ---_ ..TISEmENT.] —Bells Life in London, on Sanda Y next, M a y the % and ' with 23d, will con tain —Epsom Anticipa- Con a glance of the proba ble winners of the Derby Oaks, by Pegasus—A programme of the country som Meeting es e latest state of the odds in toHors —The arrived, an d en route f or Epsom — Laces, and all the exciting turf news of the period—Cricket The All England and other' interesting matches —Aquatics : A few words about the forthcoming match for the Cham pionship, between R. Coombes and T. Cole—Pedestrianism — Pigeon-shooting—The Ring, and all the Sporting intelli gence of the week. o.Mces, 170, Strand. Price pf Bell's Life if , &lido, CO, • . COURT CIRCULAR: Her Majesty and his Royal Highness Prince Albert went at half-past nine o'clock yesterday morning, to Marlborough Heine, Pall-mall, attended by the Ho nourable Mary Seymour, Lard Charles Fitzroy, and Lieutenant-Colonel Hon. A. Gordon. The Queen and Prince inspected the Exhibition of the Department of Practicsl Art and School oe Design, and also viewed the Vernon Gallery. The Rajah of Coorg, accompanied by his daughter and an attendant, was presented to the Queen at an audience yesterday, at Buckingham Palace, by the Right Iron. J. C. Ilerr'es, President of the Board of Control for the Affairs of India. The Duchess d'Orleans visited her Majesty yesterday. His Royal Highness Prince Albert went, yesterday afternoon, to the Royal Institution, Albemarle-street, attended by Lieutenant Colonel Hon. A. Gordon. Her Majesty had a dinner parts last evening at Buck ingham Pnlaee. The company included her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, the Duke and Duchess of Buccleuch, the Marquis of Lansdowne, Lady Fanny [Toward, the Baroness de Speth, Viscountess Melbourne, Viscount llardingo, Viscount Mandeville, Lord and Lady Burghley, and Lieutenant-General Sir Charles and Lady Napier. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge honoured Lord Adolphus Fitzclarence with his company at dinner yesterday, at his residence in St. James's Palace. The party to meet his Royal Highness included the Earl of Maln3eahury, the Earl of Bessborough, the Earl St. Germans, Lord Elcho, Sir George Wombwell, Lord Fre derick Fitzclarence, Major Harvey, and Mr. Tomline. A deputation on the subject of the Charitable Trusts Bill, consisting of Sir Robert H. Inglis, Bart., Mr. Wiu. Tootie (treasurer), Mr. Michael Smith (chairman of the board of management of the Middlesex Hospital), Mr. James Nisbett, and Mr. Alexander Shedden (s e cr e tary), had an interview with Mr. Secretary Walpole yesterday, at the Home-office. Captain Cramer Roberts (Assistant Inspector-General of Constabulary), and Captain Stanley Carr (Chairman of the Committee of Australian Colonists), had an in. terview with Sir John Pakington yesterday, at the Co lonial-office. Dr. Paris had an interview with Mr. Secretary Wal pole ye s t er d a y a t th e Home-office, to present the annual report of the N a tional Vaccine Board. Mr. H orsman, M . P ., an d M r . West, M.P., bad inter- Walpole. views yesterday,at the Home-office, with Mr. Secretary Dispatches were received at the Colonial-office yester day from the Governor of St. Miens, and from the Go vernor of Vancouver's Island. SURREY ZOOLOGICAL GARDENS. anything but propitious for theoccasionw, The Surrey Z )ological G ard ens opened for the season, many pleasure -grounds that and although the weather was are certainly as popular and never exceedingly te fa vr i thatnt o of he e h the shouldpubli c enjoy wt h a ttractive as numerous. Among r o hea tch A a aetymteeti majority nt n la e oj g dr ro ad r n t t a i h h c t y y e e e extensiveand liberality, it is am but us feamirethes which we are rejoiced to know is conti patronage upon him. During the winter many nually bestowed improvementssuggested which the experience of former seasons ha s been carried out. New parterres have a lle e n sted d h d ave grottos formed, and walks laid out; while the whole added, whole of the grounds are trimmed and kept in a state of scrupu lous neatness and good order. The menagerie has also received some valuable additions, among which are two very fine lion cubs from South Africa. They are both about the size of large mastiffs, and the mane of the lion, which is just growing, gives him a peculiarly rough and " seedy" appearance, very unbecoming in a king cf beasts. The principal feature of the attractions of this year consists in the colossal panoramic view of Mount Etna, which has added another laurel to the many already gained by Mr. Denson, the artist. In spite of the many specimens we have seen at these gardens of Mr. Danson's artistic skill and ingenuity, it is quite surprising how, with the limited space at his command, he has been able to convey such an excellent idc a o f great extent and fine perspective as he has done in this picture. The foreground, which is bold and rugged, is occupied by the mountain caves of Vulcan and the Cy clops, which appear almost to stand out from the can vas, while stretching backwards into the distance is the snow-capped height of Etna. The whole of the colours in this picture are harmoniously blended, and with an ad mirable view to effect. The slumbering volcano pit, with its mimic forests and villages, and surmounted by a rugged crater, form altogether one of the best panoramic views which these gardens have put forward for some seasons. In the early part of the evening the orchestra performed some of the most popular musical compositions of the day, while at intervals the elephants and other tame quadrupeds went through a variety of tricks under the direction of the keeper, which afforded infinite amuse ment to the juvenile portion of the company, for whose en joyment these delightful gardens are peculiarly adapted: At dusk there was an eruption of Mount Etna, which faithfully exhibited on a smaller scale the horrors of its vast original. The fire-works at the end were remark ably beautiful, and the appearance of the mountain, with huge streams of burning lava pouring down its sides, was very well managed, and elicited much ap plause. We strongly recommend those of our friends who are partial to outdoor recreations—and who is there that is not?—to place this charming retreat for a sum mer's evening upon their list of amusements. THE CRYSTAL PALACE COMPANY. Among our advertisements this day will be found the first announcement of the Crystal Palace Company. The scheme for the removal of this enormous building to an appropriate sit , in the immediate neighbourhood of the metropolis w;11 there ba found explained at length. Sydenhatn, a station on the Brighton Railway, has been fixed upon as the spot on which the Crystal Palace is once more to display its graceful proportions. It is to be placed in the midst of a park of 150 acres, which is to be planted with specimens of every tree which can be grown out of doors in England. The Palace itself is to contain a winter garden of eighteen acres in ex tent, filled with the choicest plants and flowers. Withiu its walls flower-shows are to he held, which will put to shame the exhibition of Chiswick' or the Regent's-spark. There are to be sculptures by the chief living artists, and casts of the most celebrated works of antiquity. Geology and mineralogy will receive their appropriate illustrations, while specimens of the most striking costumes and manufactures of the various nations will be laid out as at the time of the Great Exhibition. Not the least in teresting part of this splendid spectacle will consist of sam pl es of machinery, such as those which pgl w a e ci r tes e d e s lif e .n en at g work last year in the n orthern section of the buildin g when it stood in its fu ll g lor y in H y de- p ark. In a w ord ', as far as it may be p ossible, no effort will be s p ared to make the Crystal Palac e what it was last y ear, arid will the sshumowethtiongmuh more besides . advantage ides.The b w u h i e ld n in midst of a large ope n s p ace, filled with sh rubs and t rees , than on its' old site in Hyde park, w h ere t h e immediate proxim i ty of the Kensington hou ses spoiled the Effec t, as seen from the sou th. Nor, as far as the arrang ements for p assin g to and fro are con cerned, will ther e be much reason for regret. Thesituation in which the building is to be O oze d • of epproach for the preater .propertion of theis as easy inhabi tants of London as the forairr site. It • of a few minutes to p3SS from the L is but an affair Sydenham station. There are to b ondon-bridge to the from Waterloo, Vauxhall, and the Bricklayers' also extra lines so that the inhabitants of any e Bricklayers' Arms, may have the opportunity portion of the metropoli s of • with a tolerable (It greeofvisiting the Exhibition facility well hope that the and comfort. We may possessionof and instructive recreation such means of rational to nobler habits of • will tend to educate the people eriin tue elevated thourrhts T • nt, to purer desires, and more b ---.-- - Ernes. THE NATl o O f ti s u A e L biy ---7-- .----7.-'--'.—"n—.--°--- E a • nxat Englisht i ti rea l , l is , s r l T sy s ti from Cotk, w r i tten who is a com petentfor the Exhibition there are feels confident that t i e lla ex tended scheme of M judge 0 NgenAtTlemCaonßß.—A letter the to Ireland. g 0 i u on ltoeduso admirably credit, ta t , h h e ra p na r eintpdeatrcharate credit, h n i t s : anaging committee announce that an scale, by tours has been organized, on a ve_ry liberal Raiiwa , spirited directors of the Chester and Holyhead Company, in conjunction with the different Irish , classes' he tickets rail way companies ' are also in commencing this day and terminatin g on the 30th of Octobe r . A rran gements for exc ursion trains on a most mod erate sca l e for the operative of organi za ti on by the same company. T issued will be available for one month from the date of issue, and will enable the holder to visit Cork, Killarney, Glenga riff, the Gi an t' s C ause way, Stc,., as well as ma n y et the most remarkable localities in Ireland. The necessity of providing ample accommodation for the large influx of visitors expected in Cork has not been overlooked. A local committee has been formed, and a register of lodgings is kept under their superintendence and control. FIVE YEARS AT NErAUL. By Captain Thomas Smith, 2 vols.—Few Englishmen posssess any acquaintance with the characteristics of Nepaul, its people, its resources, topography, fac. To snpply this deficiency Captain Smith, who commanded the escort of the political resident at Khat mandoo, and acted as his assistant, has written these volumes. The greatest praise is due to Captain Smith for Nd one . need go elsewhere for infbrmation the pains he has taken to put together the results of his dili tresisreaorcaubi; he will find it all arranged in this intelligent work, with perspicuity and completeness. It g : c anbe k tin b t e e n r c e e e f t o ia rt g h be the standard work on Nepaul. Captain S m ith's narrative of his personal adventures is m ost exciting. Not less a ttractive is hi s account of the w ild s p orts of Nepaul i n which he was a distinguished actor. Th e work also in eludes a full account of the embassy of Jung Bahadoor down to his return to Nepaul.— United Service Gazette,. MUSEUM OF ORNAMENTAL MANUFACTURES, — yesterday morning, soon after nine o'clock, her Majesty the Queen and Prince Albert visited the Museum of Ornamen tal Manufactures, and the display of th e works of the stu dents of the Department of Practical Art, at Marlborough House, the private view of which tak es place to-day. The Queen examined minutely the whole collection, but particu larly the series of drawings and paintings illustrating the course of education followed in the schools. The Queen re marked the absence of specimens of fine lace, the only m room,e thermeily example being that of part of Marie Antoinette's bed, lent by Mrs. Henley ; and in the course of the day her Majesty i caused e several purpose specimens e s e t i u m d eyn by y o f th l e ac s e tu o d f en g ts reat F b r e o a m ut t y b t e o m b u e s s e e t n in t voitsimtoarsri=gtiol Douse, and a l u ec a tu e r x e a . the the kitchen Royal pre parations making by Mr. Owen Jones for his tures on false a , d right principles of taste.course of lec tures President of the Board of Trade, with Mr. Henley, the superintend ents and secretary of the department, and the Prince. attended her Majesty [ADVERTISEMENT.] -- Holloway's Ointment and Pills a certain Cure for Bad Breasts —Extra c t of a letter from Mr. F. Turner, grocer, o f P e ~ To Professor Holloway. Penshurst, d a t e d Dec. 13, leso: waY• Sir,—lt is with pleasure that I acquaint you of the wonderful cure effected by the use of your invaluable Ointm en t and than six months d Pills. My wife suffered for more from a dreadfully breast, and sore which her medical attendant found impossible to heal. She then tried your medicines which, i n littl e more than a month , eff ected a perfect and radical cure, to the astonishment of the many per sons who sa w in what an awfull bad state it had been.— Sold by all dru gg i sts, and at Profes s or klolloway'a Eltablisiument -, 244 , *tr4 l 4( l l London.