The Sun. — London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

)0, Ist " have leronalit the measure forth so early, seeing that the Paper* had only been deli; Tered that d.sy. lie thought this qwettien required so • ouch cousideration thateit was .; not poesiath l ta peas it in the present ses4on of Parlia ment. -Thee Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) he thought had gone rather too for when he said this meathire would be e hooa to the colony. Ho (Mr. Smith) did not think that was all they had to consider. eihtth .regard to the land salee they must consider • ysliether the course proposed would not give great dissa tisfaction in Australia. Ho hoped the Right Hon. Gen elemamreuld understand that if they allowed him to bidet; inehe Bill it was for the purpose ot their exam ining the papers and the Bill, and that ample time would be given to consider it. Mr: nun E was not satisfied with the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Ho had expected Government would have stated what their policy would ho with re gard to all cur colonial establishments. Whatever they might do with regard to Crown lands, they ought to deal with all the colonies on the same principle. And if they continued to have nominees in the Legislative Council, they would never give satisfaction to the colonists. An other thing he had expected to have heard something about was with regard to the expense of the colonies to the Mother country. They had not heard a word about that. They were told by Lord Grey, two or three years ago, that measures were in progress by which the colocies were to bear their own expenses; and he was, therefore, much disappointed at not hearing anything on that subject. The Right lion. Gentleman had said he would reserve something for the civil list. He (Mr. Hume) did not think he ought to reserve anything. The colonists ought to have the general management, and it was child's play to keep them in the leading strings in which they were now kept. He thought this was not a measure that ought to take up the time of the House— that it was not a measure of exigency to be passed this session. Sir W. MOLESWORTH said When his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose observed that there was no urgency with regard to this measure, he should recollect that the measure of 1846 was a far less liberal one, and that if this measure did not pass, they would be obliged to pass an Act for the purpose of suspending that Act for another year. Now, to the passiug of such an Act he should offer all the oopositiou in his power. Ile was anxious that the settlers in New Zealand should have as speedily as possible the munegemont of their this i t oe y, being alcaoffcacitrrs,bethfor their own sakes and for the sake of firmly convinced that until they ch ained it, no stop would ever be put to the immense ex penditure of this country (H .or the Co oill,S.— ear, hear.) In one respect New Zealand was the most re markable c o l ony this country ever had—in proport i on to the number of its settlers and its existence, it had cost us a larger sum of money than any other colony. Within the last eleven years, no less than 1,600,0001 bad gone for the civil, military, and naval expenditure connected with that colony.—(Hear, hear.) Ho bad listened with great attention to the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and although he should be sorry at that moment to give an opinion on the de tails of the measure, he thought it one of the most liberal constitutions that had ever been offered to a colony.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with him that there should be one central council; he disagreed with him that there should be nominees. He agreed with the Righ Hon. Gentleman that, from the peculiar manner in which New Zealand bad been colonised, that they should develop as much as possible municipal institu tions, that they should divide the colony into six pro vinces and that each province should have a provincial council with a president; and, in his opinion, the pre sident ought to be elected by the inhabitants of the pro vince, Mr. F. SCOTT said with regard to the observation of t. the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the pioposal with re gard to Crown lands would create a ferment in Australia, t he could assure him that the ferment that already e existed there on that subject could hardly be increased, • and it was highly necessary that that question should be a settled, and the principle recommended by Government fs• enacted in this Parliament. Seeing that it would be • • necessary if some such Bill as this did not pass to carry a suspension Act, surely it ought to he the desire of • colonial reformers, sitting on the other side of the House, that a measure should be carried which conferred on the colonists extensive powers of legislation, rather than that they should carry a suspension Act. Mr. P. HOWARD believed that the colonists of New Zealand were most anxious for representative institu lions. The great dif f iculty Parliament had had to con tend with was the constitution of what might be called the upper, house of assembly. Unless the representative element was infused into the upper assembly, he did not think they could give permanent satisfaction. There might be something said in favour of the retention of . the civil list, but he thought it desirable that the salaries of the officers should be regulated by those who had • Chosen New Zealand for their home. Having said thus Much, he trusted that nothing would prevent the House from„ proceeding with the Bill during the present session. Ile offered his thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman for • the ability and zeal which he bad shown on this aces lion, and he should earnestly enter on a consideration of this important subject with a view to give our fellow subjects in that country something like English repre sentation. Sir E. N. BUXTON said he bad listened with great satisfaction to the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle 'tan, that with regard to the franchise there should be to difference between the Bill of the Right Hon. Gen tleman and that of Earl Grey. He rose for the purpose of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he could • s tate what number o r p ropor ti on o f t h e na ti ves were likely ly to have votes i n t hi s new franch i se? I t seeme d to oim that the measure was a very fair scheme for the government of New Zealand, and would give happiness and freedom to the native population.—(Hear, hear.) which ADDERLEY said that almost the only point gratednipen his ear throughout the Right Hon. Gentleman's address was whore he thought it necessary to enter into statistical information with regard to the • increase eue of the Population and commerce of New z emend, in order to persuade the House that the colony was tit for representative government. Why, years ago the colony was fit for it.—(Hear, hear.) This House ' e ad ei made th e acknowledgment over and over again, and tsterB of the Crown had given a broad recognition of 6 f aCt•—(Hear, hear.) And he was astonished to find that the only gentlemen who called in question the I P e k neY of dealing with this measure now were the keg" Rona Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith), sad the Hon. ember for Montrose (Mr. Hume). regard to the hre w - , e° r, that Right Hon. Gentleman must have made up were mind on the subject long ago, when his friends e in office, he himself in the Cabinet, and the pre titration of the measure had drawn near its close. As the the Hon. Member for Montrose, who spoke of necessity of relieving this country from its • such a on account of the colonies, before rs'a a measure as the present was introduced, he ( d l r. Adderley) would tell the lion. Member frankly ofd fairly that he should do justice before he talked t)c°llonly, and give to the colonists their rights de before he threw upon them the expense of government. ,h; aide was t h e only colony England possessed which • at", anything like its o wn r i g h ts , an d was, moreover , b e i t o bserved, the only colony f rom w h ic h E ng l an d cou ld withdrawits troops.—(Hear, h ear. ) would not enter upon the details of the measure in its present stage; its principle would be di scusse d on t h e second reading, and the d e t a il s wou ld , of course, be reserved for the Committee. But he would take that opportunity of ex- Pteteing his gratitude, and he was autho r i se d a l s o to express the gratit u d e of the colony represented by gen tlemen now in London, t o th e Ri g h t H on. B aronet f or having so promptly, up on taking office, recognised the necessity gonreoly of this t c h r i i s e m ging measure, and addressed himself so vi it forward .—( Hear , hear.) He knew, that It W4B a considerable task, and that the Right Hon. Gentleman had ared no pains to mas ter the sub ject; and though he felt.spared that upon several points of de tail he differed .w i del Geneleman, yet h a I wish k y r new orn th the Right Honourable to be so strong r a • feeling in the colony of the measure, that he was peegeasrd to the urgency than content—he was Lotsgr ate 7. 0 1. Y content an more merging these differences as detailthe opportunitysi,leand accepting the of e feternaiive of a measure proposed, rather than take t t h i rw .d e o v n er, to which he New Zealand. further suspension of the constitution . Gentleman' There were two points in the Bill was anxious of directing the Right n uttention, and the first was the compositigon reao:f illeoest Upper Chamber. That it shheoultdhobuegehzzased -f: the - nominees of the Crown was, uPatt the measure, for the system of nomieation stunk in the nostrils ; of the colonists, and the proposed ohamber Would be a mere caricature of our House of Lords. The Other point was the very subordinate position in which the Provincial Legislatures would be placed. They ould be wholly under the control of the Central Lea. ; c ure, and, in fact, that body would be the only legt e s 'ature in the colony. In so framing the constitution, he t hought the Right Hon. Baronet was putting " the before the horse."—(Laughter.) It contemplated Which subjects in the hands of t he Central Legislature "'h would be better under the control of the Provin elal Legislatures; and as an illustra tion of this he tett mention -the land fund. In th is p articular the lion. Gentleman had rather diminished than C a Pro h ved the provision which formed a sta tesmanlike D the plan of Earl Grey. What fear there o eeti ba of ve s tin g i n th e P rov incial Legislature the ma ngenlent of their land funds, he (Ur. Adderiey) was l ' ul4ll 3' at acolony was eaten up 1 ,1 0 ,105 s to conceive. The . h a d' °Owe mismanagement. Six years ago the colonists eepteeted of the Colouial Secretary of that day per thisle/ to build a lighthouse at Port Nicholson; t he 6 0 'ta t hirere ready, and all that was reuired was that the e "AM Secretary should get an A c ts passed for the pure rose ia tah the British Parliam en t. Y et from that day to thPrevent the lighthouse was not built. In the same they had been unable to get moorings put down in ch dr . harbour. He looked forward now, however, to a :_°ge of all th a t, and he could not but express his es h ) d 4e tion that the Right Hon. Gentlema n (Si r. J. Pa helugton had not allowed the colonists to suffer from tt ' 4l g° of Government h home , with • n ere at which they to ,r.othing to do, but that he had deemed it his duty th o u do i g in a measure conferring constitutional rights on ` 4lo nists, on behalf of whom, and of the agents of 6 (l i• o d ieny in this country, he begged to thank the Right eientleman for having placed the subject tvi'h h t s • r o__?s,ability before the House. 4 6" sue a7d• RUSSELL thought the Right Hon. Gentle hid have been justified in merely introducin a to suspend the constitution fur another year; g but Z 3 _ he had when the pains to prepare a new constitution, rhe Was entitled to the gratitude of the House for the , estrpeoedutotion of the pre sen t measu re.—(Cheers.) With to the measure itself, he (the Noble Lord) trusted there would not be any considerable opposition to it iu that House, and he hoped he might be able to 5 0Pport it on some of the points on which the Hon. Gen tle t i o lah ri ( i M ie n c A. ou d n d e eh i ley) h a d th reatened i t w i t h opposi hai±tve th e authorityl ag ih e c inted by the Crown was not to it used to possess; but as 'wire was no precedent whatever of the working of an elective council, he thought the Right Elm Gentleman ay lief 30), ties OS° Igo the ill• 0 for ir.) of et 4 0° VI 71 1- -rO R Y~ g ' f,a c i 'u 44: g r 'fir ! 0 N - W 53 quite justified in introducing the former kind of council into his constitution. Theni.e, was another point upon which he could: not gather what was the precise intention of the 13,7ght Hon. Gentleman. The qiee3tion S n this colony mis, not the mere givitee of a eonst.itniieri to a number of 'Bri;isla subjects who had been used to the working of the aiepresentativn machinery in C l i s country; but there were. 100,000 or more of native population, come of whom were undoubtedly mahing great advances in civilization, but others of whom were not anion advanced from the state in which they orizinally were. Now the Right lion. Gentleman pro posed that where a native held the Qualification re quired at the British settlers, he should have the same right to vote; and the tame franchise, as a British settler. That would be a convenient arrangement in, a• restricted settlement, but where they had a settlement of considerable limits they would give the franchise to a considerable number of the native population, who would be ignorant as to the mode of carrying on en election, or selecting proper representatives. On the other hand, it would be felt a great grievance if any difference was placed between them and the settlers, and this was the great ditE2nlty of Sir G. Grey. Sir. G. Grey -e. - 5; a very able man, but he knew that with these 100,000 native s it would have been very difficult to prevent i ,- epropex Acts from paseinge and yet to have deprived them of the franchise would have been a very considerable grievance. How the Right Hon. Gen tleman proposed to deal with this matter he did not at present entirely understand. The ,peint was, what would be th.: limit of the General Assenahly's jurisdic tien ? With respect to the measure itself; he should be happy to afford it every facility in his power. Mr. AGLIONBY was strongly opposed to the placing of the fends in the hands of the colonists until they had paid off the debt. The Now Zealand Company had a lien upon those lands, and it had certainly done teach to entitle it to the consideration of the louse, in having purchased all the rights of the French settlers, and made the island en entirely British colony. If they removed the lands from the Crown, the company would lose its only statutable claim; and he entreated the House not to sanction such a breach of faith. Refer ence had been made to the Crown lands of the Australian colonies, but there was a most important difference be tween the royal demesnes in the two colonies—inas much as in New Zealand more than 9-10ths of them States about the (Oregon territory. There was a strong pro bability of war, and an increase of 1,000,000/. or 1,200,000/. was, agreed to in the navy estimates. We then formed - what was called a squadron of evolution ; it manceuvrßl near our own shores; the Queen paid a visit to it; and it - way Fail at the time that there was as large a force in that squadron ,as had gained the battles of the Nile or Tra faig47.—(Hear, hoar.) The Oregon dispute was settled; but the squadron was not at all reduced. Then came the dispute with Franca about the Spanish marriages. The dynasty of France had passed away like a dream; and, in stead of coming here as invaders, had been glad to receive our hospitality.—(Clicers.) Still these preparations had con ' tinned, and that on a scale large enough to meet hostili ties_ from a power far more formidable than France ; for there is no doubt the United States is far more powerful; and you have all the force you prepared to meet that power, and also the force you prepared to meet France. This , year we have voted 39,000 seamen and boys, and 5,000 for a reserved force in all 44,000. Ycu have, therefore, all that you ever had during the time I am speaking of. There is no authentic source from which I can ascertain the exact state of our naval forces. No annual report is made of the number of vessels—where they are stationed— how many are in course of construction or in ordinary. We have to hunt through the military or naval periodicals to find this out, and then we do not find the number of men. The only source from which I cart obtain the latest correct account of our naval forces is - from the speech of the late First Lord of the Admiralty in moving the navy estimates for 1850, and he says that we then had 252 ships in corn mi;thion 263 advanced and in ordinary, and 6 ready to be launched. This is, in round numbers, ships built and build ing, 500. I have no doubt our present naval force amounts to very much the same. How is that naval force di nosed of ? Here again I ani just in the same difficulty. I know not where to apply to know•where the vessels are stationed, and what is the.amount of force on each stalon. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary, in introducing this Militia Bill, on the 29th of March, told us the number of vessels at home ready to sail. He said: "Your ships in commission on the home-station at this moment are, 9 vessels of war, 5 frigates, 1 sloop, 9 steamers propelled by screw, and 8 propelled by paddle." And he grounded his Militia Bill on the statement that that was all the force we had to protect our shores. But when the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Navy spoks he said he had to add to hese therfollowing list " Thera were at Woolwich nine vessels with 530 men ; Sheerness, seven, with 1,544 men; Portsmouth, sixteen, with 6,642 men; Devonport, eleven, with 2,822 men; Cork, five, with 363 men; in all, 48 vessels end 11,006 men. To them acid the Hecate (cruising), 160 men ; Pluto, 55 ; An telope, 55; Vulcan, 152; making in all 52 vessels and 12,328 men, exclusive of 4,500 marines on shore, and coast guard and dockyard battalions; in all 29,643 men. In ad dition he had to mention that the Simoom and Vulcan, large screw-steamers, were each capable of moving a regi ment, and there were several small steamers besides." This is a very different statement from the former. What I wish to have is an exact statement, such as I have moved for, of the number of ships aavanced, in commission, and in ordinary. Then comes the important question, how are our ships disposed of on foreign station'? I served twelve months on the Naval Committee of 1848, and I came to the conclusion that there is a great waste of the public money in keeping large ships on distant stations under the plea of protecting our commerce, for which purposes they are never available.—(Hear, hear.) The Secretary for the Admiralty also gave us, in that same speech, the amount of our naval forces on the different foreign stations, which consist of seven —the East Indies and Chin a the Pacific or west coast of America. the south-east coast of America, the west coast of Africa, the Cape of Good Hope, North America and the West Indies. and the Mediterranean. He says that— " The whole of her Majesty's ships in commission were— in the East Indies and China, 19; Cape of Good Hope, 9 ; coast of Africa, 22; on the south-east coast of America the number of ships was 8; west coast of America, 9; North America and West Indies, 13; Mediterranean, 19." On referring to the report of the Naval Committee, I find that in 1837 there were only ten ships on that station, and that we bad been keLping three or four vessels for some years on the coast of New Zealand, in consequence of the aroubles 'there. Now that we propose to give a constitution to New Zealand, and to hand over all the waste lands to the local Legislature, we may partly dispense with two or three of these • one ship will be sufficient to be left there.—(Hear, hear.) I dare say the war in Burmah will be urged against our bringing home more ships from China and the East Indies. But while we have nineteen ships stationed in those seas, the East India Company have also a large fleet for the protection of commerce, and they profess entirely to protect their own shores; therefore whatever force we have sp rp there must de entirely for the protection of our trade to , China, and not to the East Indies. Looking at the amoun t o o t r h t a s t immense China fleetand i t s h the altogether Eastern d i Archipelago, 00rti0 n the ed expense our se to it and to the wants of the case. To place large ships of p e o x f p war to serve as a police, where the only enemies of coin • meree are pirates who keep the shallow waters, in like em ploying a field battery to look after pickpockets in the courts and alleys of the metropolis.— (Cheers and laughter.) You have paid head-money for the slaughter of 10,000 per sons, about 100,0001. in two years. The ships employed have all been small vessels,- and in destroying that amount of pirates you have 'not lost a man; there has not beeen such an amount of resistance as to cost you the life of a single individual. To keep very large vessels in these seas is quite unnecessary. I think our admirals might agree, as our commodores do, to hoist their flag on board a frigate where a line-of-battle ship was proved not to be necessary. —(Hear.) The Pacific, or west coast of America station, was formerly united - with the coast of South America; but in 1833 it was formed into a separate station. The Right Hon. Gentleman tells us we have seventeen ships there— nine on the Pacific, and eight on the Atlantic station. A large increase took place on this station in consequence of the threatened rupture with America on the boundary question, and the dispute going on in Buenos Ayres. Du ring six years we have had an average of -2,000 men and ten ships of war lying in the River Plate, interfering in that dispute; and yet we effected no good whatever. I believe the merchants themselves at last agreed that our interference had done more harm than good, and had retarded the progress of negotiation. Now, General Rosas,like many potentates on this side the Atlantic, has become expatriated, and is in this country; so there isan end to all necessity for interfering in the affairs of the River Flate.—(Hear, hear.) You may safely take away six ships from that station, leaving 11, and then you will have a largei force to protect your commerce than the United States has, though their trade is much greeter since the discovery of the gold of California. On the west coast of Africa the Right Hon. Gentleman tells us there are 22 ships. Tho number there is nearly doubled since 1836. I say, bring home every one of those ships, which you are not compelled to keep there by treaty with other powers—France or America.--(Hear, hear.) I do not know whether any of them have been transferred to Brazil, but if they have they will be far more likely to do harm than good.—(B hear.) I now come to the Cape of Good Han, and where-the H mourable Gentleman said we had nine -vessels. Now, ag ' the Kafir war may be urged as a reason for not removing any of our vessels from that station, I will say not one word in favour of removing a single vessel from that station pending the Kafir war.— (Hear, hear.) I come next to the West Indian and North American station, where we have thirteen ships, and in pro portion to our trade with those places there is no portion of our commerce which required so little protect* as that with North America.—(Hear, hear.) It would be an insult to the United States to say that we required vessels to pro tect our commerce there.—(Hear.) They do not send chips to this country to Protect their commerce here.—(Hear.) And if you attend to your own affairs, and do not meddle in those of others, you have very little occasion for ships in North Ameri c a. —(Hear, hear.) As to the Vest Indies, d, of course, you are trading with your own colonies, o a n n th at coas u t r . se, you don't require any great force of ships th t (Hear, hear.) And here, again I must obsery T e, es andilaon thing is so useless as a line-of-battle ship on the t I coast. I am told that at Kingston the tactile give balls and entertainments on board these ships, but as to the use of a line-of-battle ship to' protect our commerce in the West Indies, it has none wh a t e ver. (Hear, hear.) I would with draw four out of th es e thirteen vessels from the North Ame rican and West Indian station, and I would have them of the larger size. —(Hear, hear.) I now come to the last and seventh station--that of the Mediterranean. We have thin teen vessels on this station. Now it is stated in the evidence of Sir G. Cockburn, that in his opinion six frigates and one line-of-battle ship was as large a force as would be required on this station in time of peace.—(Elear, hear.) Bat at this mothent we have six or seven line-of-battle ships with twelve or thirteen smaller vessels, being the largest collec tion of vessels on an y' s t a ti on ' s ailing under th orders of Admiral Dundas from Malta to Cephalonia and Smyrna. — (Hear, hear.) Now, I want to know if you are really se rious when you say that there'is danget of an invasion, be cause, if you are, your conduct is that either of c hildren or of madmen, to leave your own shores unprotected whilst you have the largest concentration of vessels you possess 1,200 miles distant.—(Hear, hear.) My proposition is that you should bring home ten out of these nineteen vessels, and leave nine, which is three more than Sir G. Cockburn said wouldthe necessary.—(Near, hear.) Bear in mind that I do not propose to bring these vessels home in order to dis mantle them, or to lay them up in ordinary; bat as You say that there is danger of an invasion, and that it is therefore necessary to enrol a militia, I say bring home these vessels —have them in Spithead, or Cork, or Plymouth, instead of the Mediterranean.---(Hear, hear.) But I hear this objec tion—if you bring back the fleet in the Mediterranean, then France, which has made a great diminution of vessels in her northern ports, will bring back her ships into the Chan nel, and then we would be, no better off than we were be fore. Well,. but if this' be so, 'what becomee of all the rea sons which were given for increasing our navy?—(Hear.) I have heard it said that France had no reason to be afraid of our large navy; that this was en island, that we had a large commerce to protect, and that we wanted a large fleet; that we were Rot a great military power, and that our having a large fleet ought not to raise the susceptibility of any other country. But now, when I say, bring your fleet home, I am told, " Oh, it will raise the susceptibility of France, and they will bring-their fleet to the northern ports, and so we must become a military nation."— (Hear, hear.) If this be true, you have obtained the increase of your navy under false pretences.—(Hear, hear.) I say if you apprehend an invasion bring home your fleet from the Mediterranean, and France would have no right to feel jealous so long as she kept up a standing army of 350,000 men, whilst we had only a small army, and which I hope the good sense of the people of this country will not permit, to be increased.—(Hear, hear.) We have this fleet 1,200 miles off, and then the Hon. Gentleman tells us, as he did the other night, that Hull and Dundee, and some other places, were left wholly unprotected.—(Hear, heir.) Surely this was either a joke or an insult to, our understandings.—(Hear, hear.) Why, five of the places which were said to be undefended sent petitions against the Militia Bill.—(Hear, hear.) I have been arguing on the assumption of the advocates of a miiitia that we want -more defences. But I confess I do not seeeeny present danger in any direction—(Hear)—and I havee not beard one fact urged that should excite any appre hension.—(Hear.) W e h av e h a d every assurance that could n be given that no further measures were necessary. Bueit - has been • lion't beeVeth said, we are liable to war at any time. I oned against t,.F . d, the reason that people have peti a militia is that practicablei that we at they don't believe it likely or people would read may have a war at any moment. If what took place • history,. and more especially the . details of and our nearest neighbour to the raptures between this coun trythey would see that ighbour during tholast hundred years, a sudden. Did the d war was not likely to be rushed upon on a sudden? In 1792 we e ee w mtion of war in 1793 take place on when the King was withdrew our ambassador from France put to d the public functions of the French, and we gave notice that this country. But the French Ambassador, Ambassador ceased in re mained here in his private capacityl.o M. Chauvelin, and during that time he made every ,from effort August till February, ties. Many representatives from FrEince lead t o avert hostili had private interviews with Mr. Pitt, and ticiome here, and was almost forced to leave this country. ate ambassador six months after the ambassador had left tlalts not tile countries came into actual hostilities,—(H ea t r, th i e l two Again, after the treaty of Amiens, in 1802— a treaty ea:r. everybody knew would which not last—although there was what was almost tantamount to a declaration of war on the Bth of March, 1603 ; and although Bonaparte went so far as to .I offer a persona 1 insult to our ambassador , Lord Whitworth, d it extrem (DE I yet Lord Whit wo rth founey cult to obtain had como into the possession of the Crown undpr tiro Act of 1847. The only mode in which they could cut the Gordian knot would be to give the company a home . _ guarantee, instead of its present toeurity. woniti bo the cheapest coursc , for combined with proper reforms, they might save it by 10,0001. or 15,000/. a year. At all events, he supported the grant of a constitution to the peoplo of New Zeeland. Mr. GLADSTONE 'suggested that the plan referred t- - ) as having been prepared by the late Colonial Govern ment should be laid on the table of the [tense. Colonel THOMPSON begged to offer the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Pekiegton) a warmer congratulation than any that he had yet been!. Did the Rsiett Hon. Gentleman know that ho was proposing a system of colonial policy that would pet into our possession es eaueh of the empire of the world as an honest man would wish to acquire? He thought that a few moments might be uselully employed in pointing out the import ance of the principle which the Right Hon. Geutletnan has been the fortunate means of bringing forward and putting into execution. The great bane and injury of our colonial system had always been the cliff,rence of races; but now of that difference the Fight. don. Gen tLetnan was likely to see the end. We were now in the same position toward the natives as that in which his tory informed us the Romans stood to our rude fore fathers. The Right Honourable Baronet had given them evidence that the native inhabitants of that colony were as nearly as possible - in the condition our forefathers were. He was not sure whether our forefathers ate anybody, but it was quite certain they roasted them.—(Laughter.) These natives were to partici pate in the betecfis of the cons•itution of this country; end be hoped that when the present race of states men had long passed from this sublunary scene the Right Hon. Baronet would be quoted as having laid the foundation of au emptie more extensive than would otherwise have fallen to our share.—(dear, hear.) It had not been stated what was to be the qualification of the elected; if it was to be the same as that of the elec tors he should be quite content. He did not approve of the proposal that 7,0001. should be expended for the benefit of the natives. Why should they be treated as children? Sir JOHN FAKING TON said that after the cordial manner in which his proposal had been received, ho felt sanguine, with every disposition to meet all fair amend ments, that the Bill might become low this session. He had not anticipated any objecqon to his measure from such a friend to local self-government as the Hon. Member for Montrose. He wistied to supply an Omis sion in his first statement, on the financial part of the question. By a statement in his hand, he found that the animal expenditure of this country for the govern ment of New Zealand, not including the maintenance of the military force, had fluctuated from 20,0001. up to 36,000/. a year. In addition there was a vote in 1843 of 54,0001.; and in 1850 of 21,000/., for additional ex penses above the sums he had mentioned. In the esti mates of colonial expenditure for the present year, this item would be reduced to 10 : 000/.; next year he hoped it would only be 5,0001.; and after that there was every reason to believe that New Zealand would be altoge ther self-supporting.—(Hear, hear.) He had been asked as to the limits to be assigned to the several provinces. Sir George Grey, in his last dispatch, stated that each of tio British settlements had now attracted to it a sur rounding ppulation of the native race; the two races stood to each other in the relation of landlord and tenant and were insensibly forming one community.—(Hear, hear.) These natives were entitled to share the priei lege. of their fellow-citizens. They were 120,000 in number; they varied very much In their degree of civi lizttion; many lived in dietricis which might not be in cluded in the different provinces; and it was to promote their civilization, by schools and other means, that the 7,000/. was proposed to be voted. The Governor would be empowered to prescribe the limits of the dif ferent provinces; and there would no doubt be a very large district which would not he contained in these provinces. Sir George Grey proposed to introduce mu nicipal arraugeatents for the different classes; and be believed the object respecting which the Noble Lord (Russell) had put a question would be attained. But, certainly, the Central Legislature would have a general control over the whole of the islands. He had no objec tion to the plan of Sir George Groy being printed for the tre of the House. Lord J. RUSSELL said that plan had never been duly considered by the Legislature. Leave was then given to introduce the Bill. THE MILITIA BILL. On the motion that the House should go into Committee on this Bill, Mr. COB - DEN rose and spoke as follows : -Mr. Speaker, Had the majority in the division on the second reading of this Bill fairly represented either the population or the wealth of this country, I should not have ventured to offer one word more, either to resist or delay the progress of the measure. But I have the sanction of the highest Minister of the Crown for the course I have taken on this questio,n. I have taken the division lists and analysed them; and, amongst that large majority of 2 to 1 who voted in favour of the Militia Bill, 1 find\ not the representatives of any of the large centres of intelligence, industry, and wealth, of any of our large city populations. In the minority I find the re presentatives of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Birming ham, Westminster, Southwark, Marylebone, Lambeth, Tower Hamlets, Finsbury, Greenwich—the largest of our borough constituencies; also, Newcastle, Hull,Southampton, Oxford, York, Stockport, Worcester, Sheffield, Northamp ton, Huddersfield, Aberdeen, Canterbury, Montrose, Bath, Dundee, Coventry, Leicester, Preston. -The City of London and Liverpool were divided on this question. Leeds and another place were also divided; but the two Members who voted for the militia have declined again to canvass for their seats. Middlesex and West Yorkshire are divided. I can say for myself, knowing what is the state of public opinion in West Yorkshire, that next to free trade there is no one question on which I would more fearlessly go to that constituency for re-election than as an opposer of the Militia Bill.—(Cheers.) In addition to this test we have 800 peti tions against the Bill ; and all the large towns in the king dom are in opposition to it. We have not had one petition nor one meeting in its favour.—(Cheer.) I do not pretend to say that the Government is not competent to proposesuch a Bill ; but these facts afford fair ground, at all events, why I should move a reconsideration of the measure.— (Hear, hear.) I wish there facts to be known, not only in this country but in a neighbouring country. I wish them to know that the great centres of intelligence and population in this country do not join with those gentlemen in this House who call themselves statesmen, forsooth, and who rise in their places— possessing great authority on other ques tions which is evidently lost on this —and tell us that we are in danger from our neighbours, and must be prepared for in vaseion by a horde of savages.—(Laughter.) It is evident on other occasions? ttohtalTraat mass of the intelligent people of this country y disbelieve it.--(Cheers.) Nor is this to be taken as an expressionfof opion that the population are inlifferent to the security himself into a Genaetrill the realm. Have have the population acted Sudden the land seemed converted to an immense appeared for a time to a "On a Sir Walter Scott tells us— "On the wh a l e n the nation to defend the" into soldiers, and the good old King - i tisChief. All peaceful considerations Parliament, and inthrown aside, and the voice calling idearest rights sounded, not only in of defence, but was meetingsl the voice of devotion." convoked to second the mea suresment, and mingled even with d in the places of public amuse went, is it that the people , Where out of doors do not do on this , w question as on all othe rs dence of this House?—(Ch eers, ) In o ecessary, , take prece not given us the lead ?....(Hear hear because they do not believe that there) is it that t h ey h ave * Simply and solely atom of alarm, and because they believlea they ground for an made abundant sacrifices out of their resources,have already meet all the dangers that may impend over sufficient to the COU ry They think, after voting fifteen millions of their moneynta'n. nually—a suns which would build a Manchester or iC s . year—that in the present state of the affairs l -- go ar every of the 'world there is no necessity why they should leave their occupations and turn soldiers in their own def ence pro fitable (Hear, am going to d ea l on at a shilling a day .— , hear.) I the present occasion, navy, w not with your army, but with your w hich we have been taught to consider the safeguard of England. The "wooden walls of old England" cost a great deal to this country ; and it is the opinion of the country that they ought to be able toprotect us. We vote 6,500,0001. for our navy and naval establishment:, including the packets for the Post-office service ; and I include those , because in the case of hostilities, the very brunt of the war would be borne by those packets, which are larger than th e Govern rnent steamers, and would be able to catch anything, or run sway from anything; therefore I say they arc one of the back , (Hear most essential parts of the navy.— .--- •) Going w to e 1835, I find we s p en t on ly 4,500,0001. on our navy. have since increas e d th a t ex penditure 2,000,0 001 . Why, t o meet the very difficulties and contingencies v hich you n,w sIY you are making provision for. In 1836, it was said we were going to have war with Russia, and you added 5.000 men to your navy. There was no war with Russia, but the additional forceup.ln 8 was kept 1 41 and 1842 you bad difficulties in China and Syria, and a threatened ruptures with France; and in 1842 occurred the difficulty with America about the Maine boundary. W e I added to our navy then on account of the war in China 1 and Syria, and the chance of a rupture with the United States. Those - diffi cu lti es passed away, but the navy I was never reduced. In '1845, there was a very grave and serious alarm of a rupture with the United T 1...1 7::' ";: ` ''' V vE NINO M A NY I could not help express,ing hie surprise at the whole tone of Hthe clehate.—( Hear, hear.) It really seemed to him !het they would ignore England's being a maritime natioa at all.—( Har, hear.) It appeared to him as it it was a Parliament in Poland, meditating in what way an incursion. front Russia was to be resisted. quite forgetting that we had a moat around us called the British Channel.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had talked of 60,000 men coming to Cherbourg and walking from their barracks on board ship, cud landing i n E ng l an d w ith out anything been known about it; bet th e N o bl e L or d wholly omitted one impo r t an t con sideration, that thare, was no railway to Cherbourg, nor was it likely there would he. But still, admitting these 60,000 men were at Cherbourg, there was yet a want. remaining most necessary to facilitate their operations, and that was ships to walk into.--(Hear, hear.) He would try to throw some light upon this mutter. First, then, with regard to those terrible steam bridges on which these Were - to , cross the Channel; he would beg to read to the House a statement of the comparative strength of the English and French steam navy, that respecting the English fleet being taken from the navy estimates of 1818; that of France from their official navy list. In 1818 it appeared that Great Britain had belonging to the royal navy 174 steam vessels of all classes, being an aggregate of 41,480_ horse power; or, deducting packets, tenders, and yachts there were 103 steam-vessels available for purpo-e. of war; namely, 4 line-of-battle ships, 23 frigates, 48 sloops, and 28 gun-vessels, of an aggregfve of 82,327 diorse power. By the Etat Generale Se la Marine, which is the official French navy list, of the year 1849, the steam navy of France consisted of 78 vessels of all classes, of an aggregate of 17,740 horse-power. Bat, de ducting 20 small vessels called avisos, in like manner as is dons from the British steam navy, it will leave for purposes of war a French steam navy of only 58 vessels, namely, 17 frigates, le corvettes or sloops, and 20 avisos of the first class—answering to what we class as gun-vessels— being in all 15,740 horse-power, Sa that at these periods, say about three years since, the British war steam navy was nearly double the number of vessels, and something ; more than double the steam - power, of that of France. He would now make a comparison of the commercial steam navies of the two countries. In the year 1849 an estimate furnished from the Board of Trade gave the whole com mercial steam shipping of France at 3,090 horse-power, aed about 10,000 tons, and he believed no great addition had been since made to it. He (Mr. Anderson) stated recently, when he brought forward the question of rendering part of our commercial steam navy available for the national defence in case of need, that the United Kingdom had about 1,300 steam-vessels, of all clasees, in its commer cial navy, of an aggregate of 300,000 tons, and upwards of 100,000 horse-power. He stated that as an approximate estimate. Since then, a return which he moved for had been printed. It showed that, on the Ist of January last, the registered steam-vessels of the United Kingdom amounted to 1,218 vessels; and as he was aware from private, but ac curate, sources of informatien, that there were at least 100 steam-vessels in advanced states of construction, or since completed, at the various ports of the .kingdom, he con sidered his statement was fully borne out. He had made an analysis of the return alluded to, that is of vessels of 200 tons and upwards, which would stand thus : a passport, and his attaché had to hunt Talleyrand through out the province s o f F rance before he cou ld ge t one; and . it was not till the following May that the two countries came ntrieis came into collision —(Hear, hear-) France could view , as no light matter to be brought into collision with a people so - brave, so energetic, and possessed of such great resources as the people of Englend.—(lrear, hear.) But then it is said that the present tiller of France is not to be trusted—that he i s a man who would d i sregar d a ll , inter national conside ra ti ons of policy and justice. Nov , vc. l - -,, . 3 1. ever may b 3 said o f t h e present ruler of F rance , if inertl . T to be taken as a t es t o f success—and I am a f ra id we are T all N too much dispos e d t o regard it in that lig h t —L ou i s ape leon had shewn no want of talent. Whatever may be thoug k ii:, of his moral s en ti ments, he has shown tha t he was no bl oc • head. -(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) He had reached the highest post in the state, the people seemed to acqTesce in ale role and he obtained a larger civil list than the Queen of Enzland -- (Hear, hear.) It was all couleur ds rose with t him, and vet we are told that this man is going depart Irene all reco gn i se d principles of international act i on , an to and that he is going to invade our shores.—(Hear.) I have a tliend in France whose name, if I quoted it, would be re ceived with respect net only in this House, but everywhere if in Europe. I wrote to him on this subject, to ascerta i n he could give any i n f ormation to confront the most silly panic that ever was known in this country. Here is his answer, comprised in two lines :—" Louis Napoleon, if he made war, urns:: do it through one of his generals. If that general eves successful h e would eclipse him ; if he was nee; he would ruin hirn."—(Hear, hear.) But understand tbat lam not here asking you to tru s t the good faith or f or b earan ce of anybody—(Hear) —but I say that Louis Napoleon is not so foolish as to contemplate anything so suicidal as a buccaneering attack on our shores would be.—( Hear, hear.) When we hear that he is dispatching astute diplomatists to the north and to the south, and that he is everywhere carrying on negotiations to attach persons to his interest and cause, was it, to be supposed teat at this very time he was going to run his head into a war with England, and that he was going to invade us with some 15,000 or 20,000 men ?—( Hear, hear.) 1 have heard it said by the Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, that it was possible for the present ruler of France to invade this country by rending 50,000 or 60,000 men from Cherbourg in the night. When I hear such statements as that, it accounts sufficiently for alt the old statesmen sitting on this si .e of the house out of office.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Audi do not wonder that Lord Derby sh ou ld hope to find new "diggins" end new veins, and that he should discard the old " placers."—(Much laughter and cheering.) Surely it is little less than an insult to the good sense of the country to make such a predicti on as that.—(Hear, hear.) Will any man say that 60,000 men could be brought to Cher bourg, and landed in this country w ith o ut our having a month's notice of it?—(Hear.) I wish we had a Committee sitting on the national defences, and I should be glad to in quire of the Adjutant-General the necessary equipment to send 60,000 men into a country, and more especially into a country that had a hostile fleet which ru l ed the seas, and was ready to intercept and cut off all retreat. —(gear, hear.) I should like to ask what cavalry would be required, for I presume that when this army lands here, they do not mean to run about and catch horses.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.). I should like to know what amount of artillery and commis sariat stores would be requisite.—(Hear.) Such a statement as the one to which I have referred is a mockery of the good sense of the people of England ; and the people of England, by the public meetings which they held on this subject, and the petitions which they presented to this House, showed that they did not believe in the possibility of such a sudden invasion.— (Hear, hear.) But this argument is used, that the application of steam to the purpose of naviga tion exposes us to invasion. I believe lamto be followed by a gentleman who has more expe,ience and technical infor mation in these matters than I have, and he will tell you how absurd it is to suppose that the application of steam to navi gation has given advantages to the other nations of Europe over us. Why, coal and iron, the chief elements in steam navigation, we possess in greater abundance, and of finer quality, than all the nations of Europe put together. In cotton-spinning or manufactures did steam give greater ad vantages to other countries than to England ?—(Hear.) If not why should steam give them greater advantages in its application to navigation ?—(llear. ) B ut i t is said steam boats' would enable an enemy to leave their ports at any ' time to invade England. But did not steam enable us also to send out our steamboats to the ports of France? —(Hear, hear.) Formerly the same wind that blew the French vessels towards our ports, prevented us from meeting those vessels--(Hear, hear.) It was then impossible to sail a line-of-battle ship in the wind's eye; but now, how ever the winds blows, we can send our vessels to Boulogne or to Cherbourg; and, what is more, they can remain before these ports like a rock, thus hermetically sealing up these ports. - (Hear, hear.) When Lord Nelson was blockading the port of Boulogne he was frequently driven away for three weeks together, but that could not occur now with steam-vessels.—(Hear, hear.) The authorities of the Post office can tell you how often their steam-vessels have failed of reaching that port. Now this gave us a greater advan tage than any other country, because we had a far greater steam force, and I have no doubt it increased our defensive• power ten times.—(Hear,hear.) A retu rn h a d j ust b een laid on the table of the House, from which it appears that we are possessed of 1,300 steam-boats. This is a larger i number of steam-vessels than s possessed by all the together. (Hear, hear.) nations of E u rope put And we are now building others, which would give us double as many as all the nations of the continent of Eu rope possessed.—(Hear, hear.) I could not say th e same o f sailing vessels, because there are a large number of sailing vessels building in the Baltic ports, but there ar e no means of constructing steamers in these ports.— (Hear, hear.) I will quote to you the evidence of naval men on this tub ject. Admiral Berkeley, on the 31st of March, 1845, before this absurd disc uss i on arose, says—" The Executive Go vernment of England had it in their power, at little or no expense, to have a fleet of steamers equal not only to France, but to the whole world. Let them look at the ports of Lon don, Liverpool, Glasgow, and all our out ports, and they would see what a vast number of steamships might in a very short time be made available for the purposes of a steam war." Admiral Dundas said, on the 26th of July, 1844, that we possessed 1,000 merchant steamers, 280 of which were large enough to carry 32-pounders—a force which is sufficient to overcome the combined fleet of the rest of the world. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Navy ueder Sir R. Peel's Government (Mr. Corry) said that in case of a war we were able to command ten times the force of any country on the continent, and that three months after a declaration of war not one of the merchant vessels could b 3 found at sea.—(Hear, hear.) Do you sup pose that the French Government—do you suppose that Louis Napoleon, who resided in this country—are ignorant of these facts ? —(Hear, hear.) Why, France :does not pos sess a single ocean steamer, and my Hon. Friend the Mem ber-for Orkney says that we have in our mercantile marine 20-horse power in stea for every one-h o rse power possessed by France, and I belie m ve he has not exaggerated in the least. —(Hear, hear.) We are told that this steam navigation he's made a bridge over the Channel, and this parrot cry has beets taken up, and repeated from one mouth to the other. But I hope that in future we are done for ever with this foolish no tion. Well, then, if etearn has been of such use to our ene mies by sea—an advantage which we share equally with them—how much had ra i lways added to our sensed security in affording us increased facilities for the transmission of troops from one part of the country to another?—(Hear.) I have here a few lines from the evidence of Sir W. Gor don, the Quartermaster-General, given before the Railway Committee in 1841, in which, he stated that in two years from December 31, 1841, to De women, on this very point, cember 31, 1843, there were 1 30,174 persons—officers, men , women, and children —moved b rallroad under his direc tions in England.. Speaking of r y alve y generally, he said— " I should say that this mode of ra j a a ay s conveyance has en abled the army, comparatively to the w demands made upon it, a very small one, to do the work of a very large one. You send a battalion of 1,000 ter men from London to 1/Undies in nine hours ; th at same battalion marching would take seventeen days ;they and arrive at the as when they start e d.' end of nine hours , just asfresh, or nearly so , that we are enabled well, l o v f e railvaays, to ac complish within the spa„ of Y p here have the fact .inee hours what it tools us seventeen days to effect he the ti n m ul e e of turnpike gates. Fur ther, we are told that we can transport as large a body of troops as we could a ssemble in Scotland from Edinburgh to Dover in twelve ho urs; whereas this was formerly not to be done under tweutv-four days. Is not this an enormous advantage? And does it not give us an I immense control over the army we possess? I am really ashamed to pursue this subject farther, and I cannot be- 1 lieve that there is an intelligence—who placyesn'i any confidence in all this talk we ~at least no man of sense and have had lately about our defenceless condition.—(" Hear, hear," ato nd " ou othat," from the O pposition benches. ) I h ave p su roved ose in yfrom the minds ere is no reason for all this alarm; but I pp of e etne t protectionist some and fears of such oth er sup to ex a Fren ch invasion.—(Laughter.) I commonreall sense have to b phis ardon of the F renc h nat i on, an d o f t h e e " ln trY for even alluding to such of t dangers, though even do so but hypothetically. I myself have uot the smallest idea that .any such exist more now than there did tve A o' e gi , ? 7 1 a le 'ego, and you are 'as strong now as you were than. this and Bill, at all events, first bring —3' at that if you insist on forcing forward Militia home your fleets, a _let. the been already laid out has h as PenPle of the country ascer tain that th r e ly money which been prope expended, and t the French nation see f people h off flland, ba the Execu tive Government 0 e country that it is not the imag i nar y .d d e a r ngrs. T that is thent on re . would beg Honourable been heafking --." moment the great pro serisetnintlgemen to consi _ o . t• one gress that is being made in ofthese days in wealth, manufac tures, and in all the works p ose d a y s ---44 tY and art. I do not believe that all we have the tendency towards peace in this House about I have is anything more than clap-trap and delusion. When on both sides of the House e express their belief in the won derful advance that Is d b m a d ; ea -- -e •ia Most important inves they talk of the great • • tigations—when discoe s of the electric telegraph, the t • ex raord ea h v in t erY meanstheonossess— , communication that we p all events, '' ' saY I believe them ' to be sincere; but I, at have a full conviction that r at the tendency of all these war.. ge r impro vements i , is towards peace, and not towards his country, and'hatise I believe no danger to exist to t uire further defeCuae no proofs have been given thflt we re PI hope, at all ee, I resist the gress of this B p ill • an be willing to with r eventp that though the pro- Government may not aw their Bill, they I am loofa may not refuse the returns n g for, which will people of this country t ' enable the , e n Juslge how far these ad ailed fur.—(Loud cheers.) ditional defences are c an I 's-) The Hon. vinff as Gentleman concluded by me a amendment on the • to Committee on the Militia B• ill,"That motion for going in better to consider to enable this House the the provisions of a of the effective for the Militia Bill, a retur March last be laid 0 ce of the royal navy on the 31st day of . the following particulars, the table of the to contain House ; such return Particulars, viz.: armaments, number uf. creva First. The names, arma 8 and officers 3 then employed h e of all her Majesty's ship , miliccitive service, were employed the stations ou which they em ployed on eacha the length of time each vessel has beens station re.. team-vessels from l all spectively, distinguishing by screws fromirX-vessels, and also steam-vesselspropelle d els,and stating the nominal pro pelled by paddle-wheels, vessel. Secondl horse mes of each ar- The same power of the engines ships, with the ports at which they all reserve or advance which and statement of the periods they are now placed, a to sea in which 'd to send them . . a fit state for would be require that the consideration of the Bill in actual service. And Committee be postponed until, produ c ti on after the of s uc h retuin." Mr. ANDERSON, in rising to second the am en d ment ebe did so from no f actious feel begged to assure the Ho ings or party motives. H.While the Hon. Gentl emen opposite willing to he was quite' support them in any good measure sat on the Treasury benches measures which they mi g ht il propose, while ho was equally prepared to oppose all their o propoeitions. For this reason he had opposed t h e second reading of this Bill, as he should have done th a t o f the late Government, as well as the amendment of the Noble Lord th e Member for Tiverton. The House, moreover, had resolved t o utmost importance of as t consider the Bill, and therefore .it w .most importance that they should have the largest possible , amount o f i n f orma ti on b e fore them, to enable th em to de cide on th e requ i remen t s o f the measure , Fo: that reason,reas' '.he believ e d, t h at the returns mo ved for by his Hon. Friend the Memb er f or the West Ridi ng were highly necessary f or Bill the proper c ons id erat i on o f the in Committee. He Vessels of 200 to 500 tons 264 tonnage 86,416 tons. „ 500 1,000 „ llB „ 78,•161 „ „ 1,000 2,000 34 „ 35,013 „ „ 2,000 3,000 „ 425 vessels; 243,045 tons. The vessels of four companies now employed in the Ocean Mail Contract service, and which were under their con tracts available for warlike operations, were 70 vmsels, amounting, in the aggregate, to 93,421 tons. and 32,500 horse power, being more than double the power of the whole French steam navy in 1849, and more efficient both for speed and capability of armament. After this statement, he trusted the House would not be at all alarmed at the idea of a bridge of French steamers being built across the Channel. This country possessed such an over whelming steam power that not a single French soldier would be able to leave port. There were steamers enough to blockade all the French ports, and to prevent any vessels from leaving them. He felt no hesitation in seconding the amendment. The question having been put, Mr. STAFFORD said the Hon. Seconder of this motion seemed to be animated by a somewhat different spirit from that of the Hon. Gentleman who moved it. While the Hun. Member for the West Riding expressed himself as dissatis fied with the amount of knowledge respecting the navy which was then in possession of the-House, the Lion. Member for the Orkneys, having got a return seemed to have got all he wished for, and, except in the last sentence of his speech, made not the slightest allusion to the motion before the House.—(Laughter.) The House must, he thought, have observed with astonishment the amount of nautical lore in reference not only to the commercial marine, but to ships of war, displayed by the Hon. Member for the West Riding. Where the Hon. Member had studied the subject it was not for him to say; but that a gentleman professing to be with out official information should be able to say that six ships should be taken from one station, nine from another, one from New Zealand, and that a certain number of ships should be left in the Mediterranean, must certainly appear astonishing to those who were not aware how much time the Hon. Gen tleman had given to the study. Now, was this the only as pect of the case? After the Hon Member and his party had voted 44,000 men without a single comment, he now brought before the House a motion whose sole and specific object was delay. He was very much disappointed to find, as the Hon. Gentleman proceeded, that he had no explanation to offer in reference to this change of tactics.—(Hear, hear.) Now he put it to the Hon. Gentleman, what effect these returns could possibly have. Were they to suppose that the towns which the Hon. Gentleman had - named would be influenced by these returns; or that the returns would tend to diminish the amount of support which this measure had received, not merely from places which enlightenment had reached —(Hear, and laughter)—but from places as important and as much deserving of respect as those to which he had on that occasion, as formerly, narrowed his views? - (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) must here protest against the system of explaining away the majorities of that House. Those whom they (the Ministerial Members) represented had as much right to have their opinions and the votes of their representatives respected as the constituencies of the district to which the Honourable Gentleman was in the habit of referring.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem ber said that 6,500,000 L was spent in our naval defences. It the Honourable Gentleman included the packet service he ought also to include other items which had equally little to do with defences. Did he mean to say that all the scientific branches, which were as neeful to the com mercial marine as to the navy, and the freight of troops, were referable to naval defences? Such representations were a fair sample of the fairness and accuracy which charac terised the Hon. Gentleman's statement. As regarded the precise number of vessels employed on any particular station, the Hon. Gentleman might take an arbitrary figure, but no Board of Admiralty could consider itself tied down to the maintenance of a particular number of vessels in any one month.—(Hear, hear.) It would be guided by the commu nications which it received; and that House would, he be lieved, never require confidential communications on mat ters of the highest interest to be divulged. Take the case of the West coast of Africa. If one vessel or two vessels more were found to be necessary for the end in view, would the Hon. Gentleman say that they should be withheld? The Commander-in-Chief on different stations often stated that they required more ships.--(" Hear, hear," from M r . Bright); and in spite of that cheer, he must say that, in his opinion, such persons, being on the spot, were far better able to judge than the Honourable Gentleman. The Hon. Member for the West Riding quoted the precedent of 1793. The delay of the war at that period arose from the want of preparation ; but let that precedent count for what it might before, the Hon. Gentleman himself de stroyed its weight when he said in a subsequent part of his speech that steam had placed us in a new position, and that our forefathers would not have thought of undertaking what steam would enable us to accomplish with ease.—(Hear, hear.) That was the real state of the case. When the Hon. Gentleman spoke of the facilities with which our own troops might be moved across this island, he appeared entirely to forget that similar facilities existed in a neighbouring coun try, that not only soldiers but crews of vessels might be ra pidly conveyed from the south, to man the twenty-six vessels in the northern ports. The Hon. Gentleman himself could not deny that it was owing to the increase of our fleets that peace had been preserved, and that our preparations had compelled our enemies—if we had any—to respect us (Hear. hear.) The motion submitted to the House was one which had never been granted by any Administration. It had been repeatedly brought forward, but it had always been held that to grant such a return would be highly detrimental to the service. The statement which he ( Mr. Stafford) made in reply to the motion of the Hon. Mem ber for the Orkneys, showed that the Government did not wish to conceal any information which they considered it right to give ; but this motion could not be granted unless the House resolved to constitute itself the Board of Admiralty. In matters of this nature it was necessary to repose confidence in the responsible ad visers of the Crown. Some of the particulars included in the motion had already been laid on the table; but the at tempt to obtain a return of " the names, armaments, number of crews and officers of all her Majesty's ships employed on active service," &c., must be met by the Government with a positive denial. Its immediate effect would be to give more information than the Government ever yet granted; and as to the animus with which the Honourable Gentleman brought it forward, the motion went to overturn and reverse the whole system of naval management—a step which he trusted the House was not prepared to take. —(Hear, hear.) There might be defects in the Admiralty, and he hoped they would be rectified ; but as it had been managed, and he hoped would continue to be ma naged, it had protected the commerce of the country and preserved our shores inviolate; and he asked the House not to declare to the Commanders-in-Chief abroad that this country had no confidence in them, or to show that it was determined to take the executive into its own hands, by demanding information which the responsible servants of her Majesty 'did not consider it consistent with their duty to grant.—(Cheers.) Mr. CORRY concurred with the Hon. Member for the fig hh i te n f o o wa n ts he re - West Riding that, in discussing the question of our national o defences, it was not possible to separate the military frond the naval services ; but he also concurred with the _n o..or. Gentlemen the Secretary for the Admiralty, that t s he t t Riding mation asked for by the Hon. Member for the' ought not to be given by the Admiralty. If .that tion were given, it would throw but very subject, and the country would not be at Nor did he thinkthat through it, unless it were accompanied e naval force that might be opposed to it. Nor the production the consideration ought to be proffered for naval forces, be. of any information on the subject of our littlell the stations of tion of the names, the armaments, an cause the official Navy List contained the ships in commission.— trouble to compare the French and then the House in pea and he thought he should ( b il e eaabrl'ehtenar) subject, with which oglieshhasdatvaykeLnitshtse, session of sufficient information on the nticeship to the he was necessarily incomparably greater than those forces of this country were incom Paalthough our navy was of France—(Hear, hear) —but familiar from hie aPpre Admiralty. The House need not wbehiienhforgmaevde th g a r t ea t t he ad n v a a v n a - 1 greater, there were circumaten o i r n s r i reserved d o taxes to the French navy. geographical position of France, the Thoseeth distrib circumstancesutionof were o tfleetsh the adopted in France, by of the two countries and the 8 ) w of ere th c e dsaYffile.aieetnutrnins feofrmtha while g to man the ships for service.— difficulties in finding w sh h ip ic s h o t f he w y a o r b , obtained mnenEfsorianthde Ntvhheorlee .a'sffaast h ffoo e rr bet foreign 'Win it was ln a thoes,eotof fo t r h e t the FrenchE ng drons in the Mediterranean, but 0 ( fH geographicale service.— (Hear.) r.) Wit h respectpo position, t , o m f e h n e first knownof these that advantages, both eono tri that es retained their largest stifle home, while_ l t i h s a h t i s t e w a immediate being required for • t would take days to send squadron in dispatch from . Paris to Toulon would not require so many m a lts. If the French G overnment service, a telegraphic orders from London to Frenchte station. rran ela navy T 1 sage to ou on, there was no reason .sent a telegraphic mes sage to Toulon, there was no reason why the French fleet sho should not steam to Brest in a fort why the French hours as a most important com ia the Mediterranean, but the steam munication to maintain the Mediterranean was four times as navy of France in as that of England, so that a considerable port night. It was true flee the French had . great ion might be spared. In another respect, Toulon might contri- 4 Aes 2 I di of tr. . - - ------ Te"a --a-a-- bute to the naval 'twee suddenly, available.: ' There were at , and - especial suspiciou of ale present 'ruler of that country. Toulon _seven ships of the line fully manned by 6,006 • men. Now, he did not het that ; bUt, fbr the .Sake of argu supporters of this It woulq be the height of rashness to send those crews round I ment he would' • admit thet y sea, -but they might be conveyed overthatt complete.' By _Bill did believe it. Well, where we! e the grounds sending their m s overland, the whole of the French navy : fi.r. it 7 It, snould be remembered .that there was in reserve inieht lie airectea against our shores. Bat the I elwaye 'a party in this country ; in feho to or ,/ a pan i c _ any matiallhihniee ,was in the difference of the distribution or , sett or a pani c —a n d that a cry of au o r pietti as ag n a l i w n e s y t ._, F r r e a a n d cp the French navy as c oin p are d w ith th a t . o f E ng l a nd. 1 and for consequent military expenditure," ie t 4e - di This country had - meet i m p ortant colonial 'acrd mercantile They should r emem b e r th a t Sir T., Ii sein ga st i uguished interests to protect, while ehose of France were compare- 1 military 'officer, insisted in his evidence before the Come mittee that the Preach had a burning desi re t o come to this tively se all. 1 The conseq uence was; that, t h e greater par t otthe navy ofFranee was on the shores of France. at the, country to revenge W a t er l oo , an d h e , quotedate one of hi s aohainand of her Gbvernment, while t he greater part of ' t h e authorities the Bishop 'of Madagascar.-.-(Hear, hear, and English navy was out of reach. and-Was unable to give us a laugh.) But had thee people of France shown a single any asaistance inecase of attack neon -our ehoreo. - (Hear, , symptom that they were ans l o as t o piele a•cluarrel.veith thi s hear.) On the Ist ,of January, 1851, the dist r ibution of hcoun•ry? Neither in the timeof Louis Philippe, nor under the naval fence' of the . two countries was as follows : I the Provisional Government of Lamareine e nor under th e England h a d 138 sea - g ning blips in cenernission,exclusive of Republic arid National Assembly, nor under the President, - packnta with 33,000 men Afloat. The Freach had 1371ehips ' haa. the people of Franceezbibited the slightest hostility to and 25,000 men. The English ships upon toren!). stations lnegland. If such a feeling bad existed, however, surely were 108. with 21,000 men; while the French had, iecled. ; under all those changes it would have been manifested._ ing the Levant, only 57 ships abroad, with 7,000 • men. 1 (Hear, hear.) It had not , been manifested, and he con- England had •at home, . including the Lisbon squadron, Mended, therefore, that as far as the •people of Franc* were ordered home; 30 . shiesewitii 12,000 m'r, if their. comple- I concerned, there was not one shedow. ; of ground for this mente were . full white. the French had at home, including Bill.—(llear, hear.) Look at the conduct .of our press. H e tee T ou l on diviefori a 7Q ships, with 18, 0 0 0 men. The real did not w i s h the English press to shut its mouth !when any criterien was he, ameuat of actual force, and the proportion thin g was enacte d i n fore i gn na ti ons w hi c h it b e li eved to wa, as 33 1 0 25 between: England and Francee but the pro-' be contrary to freedom; but our press bad for two months portion abroad was as 21 to 7, while in the force at home, it ',Maintained an incessant.daily fire of accusations against the was as 12 t o 18. s o th a t while . the tetal force of Erialana , miter, and too often against the people of France. ' The was one quarter more than that onfalaance, we bad'abread t Frehch press during all that time, though under the control three times as great a force, but only Sw o .thirds a s great a of ,the Presideat, . had never retaliated, or attempted to force at home.—(Hear, hear.) The House would obscene create iii the minde 'of' the French. people a feeling ants that, with - less theft' double the number of ships abroad, gonistic teethe people' of this country. He would admit, for England sen t t h ree tines the number of seamen to foreign ' the sake of argument. that the French President had shown stations. This arose' from our send i ng the greater pert of greed of power, that he was cool, reseryed, calculating, and our large ships, sa ili ng . and stem-vessels;-to foreign stations,, unscrupulous; but it must be remembered th a t he was ap while the French retained the whole of their larger ships and- proved by the majority of tlii, French population; and, if steamers for the home station. The French had . n et a sinle . there were our reason morn th a n another why he was so, i t ship of the li ne , nor a single steam.frigat t , nor even ' a first- . was . because he lest not plunged them into war, He ad class steam corvette abroad. The largest steamev t 1 which united thee, they . did not like tue theory of • his government, France had upon a foreign station was the corvettes, of•which she had only six abroa.l. Enland', smalle es si e cl^ssof but if the Vehicli people, disagreeing in that, yet supported on litm 'because he had given them a . penenacent e or temporary the contraryomaintainad the greater part'of her most poWer i repo . 3 , , the House Might depend upon it that they would not ful steam-frigates and steam-corvetteeabioade ' France had ' rest .; single instant it he should manifest the slightest inten teo steam line-Of-battle Shies, 11 steam-frigates, and 1t tion of sending 'a piratical or marauding expedition against corvettes, making 32 in commission, of which only sin cor- this country. There were no preparations made in France. No eettes were abroad. England had three steam line-of- ,body liedatli, owe that any more ships had bee Decembernaddeei to last.th bet Lie ships, 12 frigates, and 28 corvettes in commission, French navy or troops to the French armysince of which only .14 were at 'home, add 29 abroad. • Of the lat- He was surprised that among the extraordinary . fallacies ter there were one of 800 hotse-power, one of 659, four from which had been stated in the House upon this question, n o 500 to GOO, seven frOM 40 to 500, five fr om 303 to 400, one had ventured to state that Louis Napoleon had done eleven front 200 to 300 horse-power. E xc l u di ng packets, what his renowned uncle was 'said' to have 'done when be •England'had in 'comMission '64 - steamer's of 18,900 horse- propcised to invade England, viz., that he had put up power, while France had 77 stearners - Of 17,500 horse-p ower . fi nger -posts upon all the roads converging towards Boulogne Of steamers ready for commission, England had eel' of 10,500 marked " The way to London," with a hand pointing horse-power, while France had 30 steamers of 82,000 across the Channel. A story of this kind would have horse-power. The total number of _ships in commission and created a panic much m ore success f u ll y th an so me thi ngs ready was, in England, 95. with 29,4(10 horse-power; an d which had, been stated with that object. He recommended in France, 107, with 25,700 horse-power. Bat England had Hon. and Gallant Members to try it the next time they abroad 47 steamers of 13,300 horse-power, while France wished to create a panic. —(Laughter.) liter.) There were two had only 21 steamers of 3,000 horse-p ower . . England supp os iti ons on. which the House was invited to proceed had at home, including the Lisbon squadron, 17 of w ith t hi s measure. , The first was that there would be a de -5,631 horse-power; while France had no less than 56 of claration of war and then an invasion; and the second was 14,403 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) The merchant steam that there would be a piratical and marauding expedition navy had been spoken of as useful for' the defence of the undertaken in th e n i g h t. Now, if there was a declaration country, 'but when war `broke out, if the Government' of war nobody had attempted to deny that, according to the took a North American, or West Indian, or alatiterra- usages of civilized nations—if nations that went .to war de nean steamer, how. could a comm u nic a ti o n b e k e pt u p serve d t o b e called civilized.—(Hea r , h ear )— th e re must b e between England and her colonies?—(Hear, hear.)' The negotiation and delay to ouch an extent as to allow time French also, under their maritime system, could man their for some of that immeasurable force which the lion. Mem navy _with greater facility than we could .man ears, and ber for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) had spoken of being brought had a large reserve of sailors, well trained, available to be into the Channel to defend our shores.--(Hear, hear.) The called upon at any time to serve in the navy. By the last Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had spoken of 50,000 French register,' after deducting 'the men in the navy in men landing in one night. [An Hon. Member-60,000.] the merchant service, there were 45,000 liable to be re- Well, 60,000; the Noble Lord was not particular to a 10000 ; quired of whom about one=half had a l re ady serve d a t erm o f b u t h e (M r . B r i g ht) b e li eve d th a t 60,000 were just as likely tour rears; bat we, with e registry o f 210;000 seamen, found as 50,000, and 70,000 just as likely as 60,000. B u t w h at it difficult to rais e 30,000 men , ant i a ll tintraiiied; whereas'; hl'ould Louis Napoleon gain by adopting that course ?—for the French had_ enough trained to man the whole reserve. • men did not act without motives. He would ask the soldiers Under these circumstances it was obvious that we ought not in that House to say whether they thought that the French to trust our national defence exclusively to our navy, and army were likely to see any glory—he was not saying in a therefore he was anxious to support this Bill. As to our war with England, but in a piratical expedition against this land force, his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Wilts had country? Did they believe that Louis Napoleon would be the other night demolished its supposed efficiency; for it safe in the French Government one single month after he turned out, that instead of having an army of 109.000, or took the step which some Members of that House assumed even 69,000, we had only somewhere about 20,000; and that he was likely to take? Did they not think that Russia, when Hon. Gentlemen talked of the military defence of our' Austria, Prussia, would league themselves against such an shores, and our mercantile marine, they should recollect it attempt on the part of the Government of France ?—for, was impossible fo r merc h ant steamers, our dockyard batta- was it not worth more to the settled Governments of Europe lions, or our Royal Marines, to be in two places at once. that the ancient axed venerable monarchy and the settled in- The dockyard men were very valuable for the local defence stitations of England should be maintained, rather than that of our dockyards; but they could not be removed from the a firebrand, such as Honourable Members wished to make dockyard to the field—(Hear, hear)--and it was the same out the President to be, should rule over the French with the coast-guard. They would he required for the re- nation?—(Hear, hear.) If, then, there was no other motive venue purposes, and, therefo r e, th e s t eamers could not be the motive of self-preservation alone would prevent Louis manned withthene. Thellon.MemberforWestminster claimed Napoleon from taking such a step against the people and the marines as an auxiliary to the army; but if a war took Government of this country. But, - .to return to the state place, so far from the marines going to 'increase the army ' ment of the Noble Lord the Member Tor Tiverton, with re we should have 3,000 less, because they would be required spect to the probability of 60,000 men landing in one night, for our ships. For these reasons he thought we ought to he bed to say that it was an incredible statement for a have a Militia Bill, and he preferred that mo d e, b ecause if statesman of his experience to make. But, assuming that the regular army were increased, after two or three years - this invading force were to escape our fleet, and that our passed over it would be reduced; and, secondly, because, troops were dispersed and unable to meet them, how did the although militiamen might not, in the first instance, be fie Rrght Hon. Gentl eman th e S ecre t ary o f St a t e f or th e H ome to be trusted in the field, they would take off a great deal of Department expect to be able to get the militia to meet garrison duty from the regular troops, .and leave a larger them? Why, with the help of the electric telegraph he ,number, therefore, for actual service. He trusted, however, would be able to get the dispersed soldiers to the coast before that if this incre a se of f et es were agreed to, the Govern- those agricultural labourers, weavers, and mechanics had ment would not relax in their regard for naval defences, got on their clothes.—(Laughter.) In his opinion, no case which must be considered as the most important. Upon whatever had been - made out in favour of the present Bill. that part ,of the question he, to a certain' extent, agreed He protested against the inconsistency of the House. In with the Hon. Member for the West Riding. He thought a his boyhood he remembered that the cry was for reliance upon 'great addition might be made to our home squadron, " the wooden wails of England," and poets made songs read net so much by reducing the number of ships on foreign odes of all kinds on the subject, such as— 'stations as by reducing the force on those stations.—( Hear.) " Britannia needs no bulwarks, . . On some stations steamers of 200-horse power would do as '' . No towers along the steep ; well as those of 800—(Hear)—for it had'happened that in all Her march is o'er mountain wave, our operations since steam was introduced into the navy all Her home is on the deep." the work had been done by small steamers.—(Rear, hear.) But now the wooden walls as well as the military ser- It was a in China; Parana, Burmah, and the other day at vice were forgotten'for the moment for the blundering, miser- Lagos. He thought 'we ought to maintain a large 'squadron able, undisciplined horde which was proposed to be brought en the home station, and that .it was a strange arrangement together by this Militia Bill.— (Hear.) The Hon. and Gal that British interests in all parts of the world should be pro- (ant Member for Chippenham had stated that the army had tected, and those at home neglected. He hoped, therefore, been reduced since 1848. Well, that very fact ought to be the Government would maintain on the home station a re- a warning both to that Hon. Gentleman and the Govern spectable squadron. As to the question of national defence, meat, because the military expenditure at that time was none could be more important. In that respect he was a corn- such—amounting as it did to 17,000,0001., 18,000,000/., or plete Protectionist, and he trusted the Government would not 19,000,000/. a year, that the people were positively alarmed be deterred by any consideration from adopting such measures and horrified at the course which the Government were pur as they might think necessary to secure the defence of our su i ng , and insisted uf on a reduction ; and he warned the shores. present Government that if they either passed the present Mr. CARTER (who, it will be observed, took the oaths Militia Bill, or added to the army without making Out a and his seat in the early part of the evening) said, 'he should b e tt er case th an th e y h a d y e t been able to do, they too not have so soon addressed the House had it not been that would ere long be obliged to yield to the popular demand the session was likely to be so short that he might not have f o r military retrenchment.—( Hear, hear.) His opinion was, many chances of speaking.—(Laughter.)' It seemedato him that if there was anything like a real, thorough, imminent that the speeches of the two Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken danger in the case, there was not a soldier, or a policeman, were no answers to the motion for returns of ournaval forces; or a ma n i n an y wa y c ounected with the military service in and, indeed, went rather to support it, for they went to show the kingdom who might not be made available for the pur that tb e -gr e at e r p ar t of our naval forces were abroad,.and the poses of . defence, for he was sure that in such an event any obvious inference was that they ought to be brought home. c o unty, city, borougb, parish, or ham_ letwould secure its He certainly did not think the mere fact of the Hon. Memberember own peace, and leave the military and police to be placed for the West Riding being a m ember of the Peace Society a at the bands of Goverurneut for the general defence.— bar to his forming a just estimate of the position of our mai- (fu er . , tear.) But the fact was that the present was no tary establishments.' In conclusion, the Hon.' sle m bes s aid t hi ng more nor less thana mere panic, than which th ere he rejoiced that up ,n this, the first occasion of addressing the was no thing, ' ln his opinion, more adverse to genui ne pa - Hous e , h e wa s enabled to lift up his voice in fa vour o f p eace , triot i sm an d true statesmanship. adverse a political and in deprecation of that expensive system of armaments panic,was got up expenditure, wer e w purpose eccle si a s o t t • i e t a r a l d p i n a g n i c upon d it. t r a L d a e s d t for .tile which had so long oppressed the people of this country. on the bishops got up au Captain BOLDERO said that the present motion pre- tended one thing, but really meant another.—(Hear, hear.) always- anxious to increase the military upon it, and this year the military se e r: p ie: a , tu which was It was part of the political creed of the Hon. Member (Mr. trading upon a militaryiPs it had bee,n said that in theenie.—(Hear, hear.) So lo ng Cobden) to oppose all estimates, more particularly those ago as the time of , 'fac tu military science and the military relating to the military defences of the country—(Hear, course of a long peace n a to fall into neglect, pro hear)—and whatever inizht be the nature of the Militia fessioa were apt to be . forgotten a , . . . , and tide disturbance and alarm Bill, that Honourable Member would be found voting against it was to prevent . this that all order that more and more money it. That part of the 'motion which asked f or information as had -been created, and in expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) to the present state of our defences was wholly - superfluous. might be voted. for military" take upon himself to say that The Navy List actually supplied all the information that He: (Mr. Bright) would_ember for Tiverton was the father could be desired: Then, what was the real object of the eno- the Noble Lord the al The Noble Lord was in favour of a Militia tion? Delay. Even had the Government supplied the of this Bill. Hear, hear.) In truth, it was that required statistics, this motion would have been pressed by Bill in 18 tB.—( i . 6 y and the Noble Lord did not deny Hon. Gentlemen, who, whilst they clamoured for a dissolu- Noble Lord's hobby, t ' ll ' at, in the exercise of li . tion, lost no Opportunity of obstructing public business. it. Ile presumedLord the Member for Is great influence —(Hear,_ hear.) Such ' factions conduct, beethouglit, came over the Noble Landon he had dragged Lord into his views of the question.; but what with a peculiarly bad grace front - the Manchester school.— that Noble Lord afraid of ? He (Hear, hear.) he Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for was the Noble an invasion of 50,000 could hardly be serious Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) had, the other night,'attempted in anticin • ating conduct in Decembermen from a ruler whose to fix a charge, of inconsistency on the Noble Lord the extraordinaryt last he had thought it ud. Ile (Mr. B • Member for London, inasmuch as that., in 1848, •he advo- right toa t p l p fe a lloble Lord did right) was not sure that in his cited an addition to our standing army, and he deprecated a dispatchf Euro e would 1, , not say that he thought the similar proceeding in 1852. But in 184 e we had 15,000 more Pf IN ace 'leon tool! ) upon this a made safer by the course Louis rank and file 'than in the beginning of 1852. lle ( --ptnin would aP say at once that _oc,casion.—(Hear, hear.) But he Boldero) should prefer an addition to the army to having 'h h' questions the Noble Lord was no authority suggested wit lin on of this recourse to the militia, and would adopt the plan nature.— (A laugh.) He did for not pretend to set his 'by the; Honourable and Gallant Officer the Member It had house probably opinion againit the Noble Lord's. The Windsor (General Reid) for recruiting in advance.. thought the Noble Lord a much better military pre- authority that he (M 'B • been contended that France was making ne that the Ministerial benches,) a right) was.—(Cheers ' from the -parations. They had recently learned, i however,the Chasseurs de Bard to a • militia The views of the Noble Lord with re- French 'Government were augmenting a local corps of political ache were perfectly corM4terit - • with his Vincennes by 7,000 men, and were to the militia force he would liberateriles* The establishment ~ bf • a militia 20,000 men in Algeria. With regard five years service to 77 The creed o' " thenY . soldiers from foreign service. ' the term of the No ' bleeLotd, so far as he (Mr. Bright) . thought that by limiting would accrue. A bountyof 6/. or •... had observed ' three au advantage 'od would yield about Is. a week, . versa ( , had Always been in favour of uni spread over the latter period i r a boon by the rural population. ; diplomacy and incessant interference with other countries. he and thisvrould be felt h ter School that thera was no He wished always to have the power, as He agreed with the e M enc e es from the invasion. —( Hear , Man- always seemed to have the disposition, of cajolinga or bully immediate cause of fear of that existed was ' founded ins somebody or some foreign country.—(Laughter.) The chester party.) The apprehension rance at this moment. And what • Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, who on the political state of ? F An unmitigated despotism, backed was his great champion two years ago, on one - occasion was the state of France But there was no daner called . the Noble 'Lord '." a lucifer match."—ne (Mr. Louis an army of hirelings. ur shores. If he did, however,e Bright) presumed that this great military force was required Louis Napoleon invading ¢ o _, break succeed.— he would assuredly as an extinguisher in case of any case of incendiarism and we. were only_ true to ourselves, not ; .1) out. I b thought the country succeed.—(Plear, hear . ,g, —( tenewed laughter.) , But e . Mr. BRIGHT said, the Secretary to the had 'already paid enough for some of. the projects of the Admiralty had Noble Lord with regard to Africa, Brazil, and elsewhere.— at all taken upon himself to l!Stor_e• ,) revents to sneer at the (Cries of "Di 'de ' ) The efforts of the Noble Lord to do so Hon. Member for the W . est_ Riding, touching the accurate much for vi . ''abroad, while he did so little for it at . bad obtained about naval affairs . —(gem., freedom information ho a--rs--(Hear.) home, reminded him of one of the characters in the new the Admiralty As the Secretary to . y had only been in office six work of Mr. Dickens, so much so, that he felt disposed to e been previousl k weeks, never Bainyin e _ . s yknown to - be very pro- call him the Mrs. lellaby of etetesmen' — (Laughter.) Be d naval aMurs—(A foundly. e ... laugh) —he scarcely oppo adno case of urgent necessity had seemed the Bill, because in a position to assail the Member for the West Rid_ - '' - - a a een a nee t e at all events, had for been made out ano pro() ing, who, three years been a close at- fl ' ofthiscountry were insufficient. Military tendant upon the Committee of that House which had eets and troops it a special business thoroughly to investigate and made men differed in everything with respeet.to this \Bill exce p t the s ubject.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman master that the Government . plan would be useless for defence. lie' who had wished the House to bear in mind that every -argument just spoken said that the object of this motion was but he contended that it was to place before th e s delay ; which had been used in favour of the present Bill, or for an House e • increase forces, would be just as powerful next session i n g facts with regard to-the means of defence zest- of our . _ . . for po were ing them plainly before them, the House would ,so that, hay- in favour of an additional increase, what they glee impression position to discuss the propriety of any further be in a better missing was not so much a question of fact as of ___,. for military purposes. He maintained expenditure and sentiment.—(Cries of "Divide I") -He should i not that it Wasofthe trouble the House by entering into the details of the Co to most important propositions that could one only the House, for it involved Bill—( Hear hear because he objected not , ti y d be submitted vernment , 2 ,, en b s i e e tt . stance, that it was intended nearl ' t s striking circum- to the present . Bill, but to any increase of force , •!r . e; eltim ety double the num. tion of ,that proposed, there being no 45fa tel o l i the H ome her of persons who were connectedywiteh standing that the preamble of the 42d of arms, and notwith- made out. . There was one thing he won't' • t o , that he could accredit . , th _ George 111. set Secretary, for it was an arguent forth that a military force under the ' s scarce!who had been connected i nt l i / 4 command of officers th . ere . wa y any one possessing landed property within Great • haracter.—(" 0140_ i Britain was essen- militia 50years ago but was ruined in c __ woo had ex. 7 tial to the Constitution, he took the 11 , liberty of t t . sa mg that old enough to military establishments beyond what plained the matter to him, for be was not _ . t so far as weir absolutely necessary were could be shown to be believed the e n connected contrary to the Constitution and remember it himself, but he industrious to the spirit of representative • • avocations concerned, the m .. (Oh . institutions —(Hear, hear.) the service, were injin He maintained that the me • with the militia, on retiring from acts in life.—oh, asare ,of the Government was hostile to the industry of the ' •character , morals, and in their Pre s P - e e was d . country, and injurious to free mil, and that there was no interest which would not be and cries of " No.") When h • a subject of this nation on prejudiced by the establishment of a militia unless it could representatives of a Christian show that further ex be proved to be absolutely necessary for the safetyof the ture—When he was endeavouring ients was unnecessary, h country.. He! would discuss this only penditure for warlike arrn his n arguments would be fairly e upon the principles of expedienc question, . however, y_ and policy. They were s , hould at least, expect that, hear.) lhe Honourable and Learned asked to spend. 350,000/. more. The 15,000,000/. already considered —(Hear, Sheffield on a former occasion took on voted left ne in a most insecure andperilous osition, but Member for b e called the peace art p y—(Hear, add this 350,000/, and we • h P. pEldhmto sneer at what he appeared mg t rest satisfied that +ng an i a e received, as to court eh (Hear, from was sate from invasion. —(A laugh.) -.350,000/. was the hear )— ama he of the House. But the a ' interest upon a principal sum of 12,000,0001., that the opposite st ile so sneers , p the eace party w IdPe peace party could having already invested 1,200,000,000/. of the property of _stand those party—and if they endeavoured ou last longer than the country, this 12 ,000,000/. was to be added to make us ' the w t : r t es Manship and into legislation s to introduce into s perfectly safe. Before they could ask for this money they litv(Laughter)—they could afford to princiP 7. It • were bound to show him either that there was some new nw rg ' s - lamentable thing that, though be Sneered a had danger, or that there had been discovered some insecurity w as we e since those sculptured marbles- 3,000 years _ were first worked of which Parliament had been hitherto ignorant. If there P which so many had • the - seen in the British Museum, yet at were a new - danger, where was it? The Noble Lord that very moment, after 1,800 years of Christianity, they Member for London had himself dwelt our peaceful rela- on ere that night - tiona, with foreign countries, and the Noble Member for w . ..engaged,and not reluctantly on the part of for the many, in precisely the same sort proceeding s of described 011 Tiverton, and the Right lion. Secretary of State those marbles, where horses • n the samewere pictured armed men, _ , Hoine Department , had been equally emphatic o ___ e Hoe. chariots, Processions, battles, and captains-4Langhter)— subject. Where, then, .was the new "repudiateddenger?TD all tnet, and no doubt -there were ' - ,as there were and Learned 'Member for Sheffield had didnot then, who blessed priests too men really offered the arms of the Assyrians, and and intimated that those distinguished . fact di sgu ise—that thethanksgivings to the gods for slaughter. He believed the mean what they said—that it was a di . WU was, that they had great fears of an a ttack from France Bill not to be O n e which gentlemen connecte d w i t h t h e Go-