The Sun. — London, England, 1835-09-01 00:00:00

rty IYad O.IIY, be Ac t() biro tlesti. • on aP" 1.9 ticiple-- lot hem -- ,hi; pro [." should entered tetight .n should now ac - Ld here • insofar be ts stated when ciple 011 'nom the ent ; but nan, and he clause the de n 100 or If Corn • sion 1 do the de wearnble k of such ; thereof , at of the wns, and have not unjust to I to applY preamble unjust-- hat class agtPe• — , ar t of th e E! sons of lie w orse. down, of in future. pion from 11(11 COM' f Fatlia r) V °br e ; use ; !.° 1- ianguage only as w ou ld h ave proved palateable to a majority unju- st of this Ho tha use Nothin g cou ld b e more dangerous or more n to attempt to limit counselln the choice of that , eon ...se, or in the use of those expressions, consider, it for the interest of their cliental() take tir to advance. alley alk; but havine. ~ might, if they which they Might pleased, have refusta to hear counsel at P permitted them to appear at their bar, A held it to h'e indisputable (and in this assertion he ieeas sa tisfied he would be supported by every member ti the profes il3n) that no counsel would exercise the privilege of pleading if interruptions were permitted, or if it were allowed n the tribunal before whom he was suffered to plead, en accusations, too, affecting judicial rig t t hey sh ou ld be bound o hts, to deli nea t e t h e exact course w hi c h pursue.—(Hear, hear.) There had bee; he n ee d scarcely tell the N o bl e L or d, f ormer Periods at whi c h bill s of pains a n d p ena l t i es were b roug h t before the H ouse of Lords, - and at which the NOble Lord m ust admit t h at i t would have been exceedingly difficult to have such a course as that which he had appeared t o recomm en d adopted. It was only consistent with the main lierianee of th at pr i nciple of free discussion which was inter the en, with the p r i v il eges attached to all our institutions, and absence of which was, in point of fact, the establishment of a censorship, that the counsel who were allowed to plead with respect to thi s measure at the bar of the House of Lords should oebe ad mitted a f ree c h oice of the topics which they might think xpedi ent to introduce, and that the language in which they fieereyed their opinions should be as uncontrolled as passible. Hear, h ear.) Let him intreat the Noble Lord, and the ajority of that House, to set against any language which it.poarttheto the counsel might have used, the fact, that in deference m great wishes of the House of Commons, many Members °f the other House of Parliament waived individual objections prinei:sl; and that notwithstanding the amendments with -e SPect to many of the details of the measure, two great control of the Bill were sanctioned, namely, popular Irs.over the council, and their annual jlectionsa.. he•ewatas ) It was hardly' necessary, then, for the Noble °rd. to have made any apologies for the concessions which rwieileliiipligestoof make , when he bore in mind that these two popular control and annual election had 9een confirmed by the House of Lords. d that tue Noble Lord and the House of anionsCo should feel a str a -__ • neer inclination to regard in a favenrable light those amend (theMswic had been made by the Lords, and from which they E. l iottae of Commons) might, abstractedly speaking, be r ",ned to dissent, when they reflected that the Houae or i ° wsa habituated to take a different view of charters-- a remeal cheers from the Ministerial side)—yes, he re. l'eatted, habituated to take a different view of charters uatkind:ested rights, had relinquished those motives by which, _ s . r ordinary circumstances, they were actuated, from a 'de sir ant establish, not only a good system of municipal governthoent, but a system founded on such principles as a Y thought the House of Commons would be likely to -fsP,Tre•—(Hear, hear.) In estimating the amount of con that ' ° . n be could nevr forget that . it was an impossibility that it Houses Houses should agree in every particular, and e t it leas , • notning but intolerance and tyranny to deny prateet her the power of recording a sound and d e li. e judo p o wer on the measures which were v. omitted to „,„ir,eonai deration.—(Hear, hear.) It was but acting in rocaa-kPilahee with the true dictat e s o f wisdom for each House to fiv e such concessions as might be granted without the s.acri. co of principle, and for both ',.0 join in the pursuit of that t 0 a tt s r a se which might lead to 'ale utmost mitigation of evil, and Laeolue attainment of the greatest amount of good.—( Hear, gre a r i ) est If we cannot effect that . obje . ct, we must use our no t l et ~Possible efforts to accomplish it ; but, above all, do be righ t "s act on the presumptuous principle that we must ie to l oro and all others wrong, which was the foundation of . ell ' ciple Ilea--- (Cheers.) So much as to the general prin- L etaa ° the amendments which were made by the House of ill th e There was nothing, he was bound to admit, either vthent et :elle or temper of the Noble Lord's speech or in (nightsobpositions which he laid down, o . r in those which he s uPposed afterwards to submit, which should pre amend e House of Lords from carefully reconsidering the Re aellleats which they had introduced into this measure. 4 40Z: ti lt to assert his own right of private judgment; but I ,houla ' ha " agreed to the amendments of the Lords or not, he f ue eisic as — r eady and willing to consider them as the effect o Pare -51harrived at by a large majority of the other House of Kell as a " t ' He would then proceed to express his opinion as PeSP,I s -„„",! coeld with respect to the more important pro . - deeati a „"ineh the Noble Lord bad submitted for their eons!. whi e C" The first was with reference to the amendment he shoal directed the selection of aldermen for life. He believed alt era ,d most effectually (if he could do' anything towards arrao""an) Promote the possibility of a perfectly honourable d eal t ' g a tnent on this subject by expressing clearly and deci fere il his own opinions on this amendment : As he said be- or le e should with equal boldness express his concurrence in, Noir objections to, the yiewe.which had been taken by the . t ato ._a Lord. On that principle, then, he did not hem d er e) say that he did not consider the introduction of al ahor:e,n for life an improvement to the Bill.—Oluch if n from both sides.) He felt bound further to say that ti that„Proposal were made in the House, strong as his objec aa°,ns were to many parts of the Bill he did not think he could did ° sueported such an amendment.—(Loud cheers.) He lgri not believe that the selection of a certain number of exist . aldermen, to be elected by the existing councillors I.l.; ist ing at least in some cases), and constituting them by woolacieart of the new council, to the amount of one-fourth, it a n uPly a distrust, without conveying any security ; and leotPord'eared to him that ' it would place those aldermen so se veil th fo r life in a permanent minority, and would counter secure'e° advantages of character and station which would 4 fo their return as members of the council, if placed upon ti le °ti ng with the rest of the community, but which, under 144°Posed arrangement, would be more than counterba tile ela nd rendered completely nugatory by the fact . that th e ermen were forced into the corporate body without e ag "nsent of the community whose affairs they were to ma -1.°.-.°7-(Chaera.) It seemed to him also, that the placing anions I Le those aldermen to be selected by the existing councils f eatn °l !gst the new bodies, was an act which was not in con 'eaa l aT t Y with the general provisions of this measure..—( Cheer!. ) the" ' N o b le o Lord did not propose to do away altogether with intended ,h..Zedents made by the House of Lords, but . 3.:0:11, certain number of the council should be elected for six of ah-f-an alteration which, as it coincided with . the principle th e i l Present amendment, was, in his opinion, one which see et "se of Lards ought to agree to.—( Cheers.) . With re- Nobleto the to wn -clerks, the amendment respecting whom the lt k a rd seemed to consider of the greatest importance, he a xer ° , b ;l a tt to p • his disagreement from the opinions . so fa e l . - ; e " IV the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord was obliged th ert ; ,e admit their vested interest in their office as to grant Lord lllp n for the loss of it. s la , `°‘'"' i t HN RUSSELL was understood to say, that the ta 'm L y e a - i e f r r ' o s oi lvere to receive compensation only in case of their Sir R , office , so re ta • r ; ' L EE L resumed—Yes, but was it not infinitely better . to to o 1 - m t e l ' a individual who was able to perform the duties ' a rem ° e a - a, and t blige him to fulfil those duties, than iT t ,, l s l 4 v ai l " e l ni for o th o e purpose of making room for anothe ! a'' u° rai d Sallie amount of salary would in all proobfahbits -81 eatioa wa ' w hile the town-clerk who was deprived of a:tl)l..,:iitisatio'n%granted a considerable sum in the shape the He might refer to y not - -(Hear hear, hear.) tai,llt:nority- ; p ° . aI y of ;he . Noble Lora . but to the unanimous . is poin. ..arliament, in confirmation of his opinion on We an , i ' ,„ .•(:i lately as the year 1832, subsequently to te th n e . aiy, ref n. rarliament, when a measure for the most ex . nad 4 14: 0 1 'n o in the corporations of Scotland were introduced, iietnlea B°l 'e wa s f g h many of the principles on which t Pres, minded were more extensive than those of the t a nt Bin knowledge of -e ,s, , Yet Probably from a provident .. .. th.. watch eharacter, and the consequent conviction that Perir;!l;zld infinitely prefer paying the existing clerk for s tatt oo Pig the duties of his office, to giving him comaa l n : pl ae _ , for his rem m al from it and putting another . in his . _ th e eiiil%. h 0 should be paid the same salary, Parliament paid_ of 4 s ' and merited compliment to the people of Scotland O w . Pr.essly providing that it would be lawful forthe town ration nho held office at the time the Bill came into ope he'o' , to continue to hold it ad vitant ant culpum.—( Hear, ape r e -a . Ile came . not' to the third point in the Noble Lord's j asti 1, and that \vas with respect to the nomination of the i t , p c .e , s• He considered the amendment of the House of Lords advaln particular part of the Bill,. as one attended with great teens As they sent the Bill from the House of Corn ....eis these justices were Prrvesed to be invested by the foroln %lib certain local j ur isdiction, but that the candidates , 0 the office should be selected and nominated by the Town sai°,lll• It was argued that this practice was in conformity arioeithet. ancient and' continued practice of Corporations, by ta ( 4 he justices were always chose n and appointed ; but 0i ...a . who took this view of the subject forget that by the an ii:nt; practice the magistrates were really es officio, for the o ar rs which constituted the Corporations were granted by ea t Croton, and under these charters they were enabled to fer i a: V i ejo, Ly the appointment of they and by con- Ilia , f on hem judicial functions.—( Hear, hear.) By this Pow eao , w Qver, as it pa.ssed the Commons, the council was em lCsownw to present a certain number of individuals to the i ce . I .i, and to confine the Crown in its selection to the por lett), ,' ' a n]. they had chosen. A most invidious task was thus al i a ir d on the Crown, of rejecting a certain number of those tl i , u ' n 'ted .for appointment. He thought, therefore, that %Pa, •res.tricted choice which was now altswed to the Crown it, that preferable ; and that they might depend upon . al to , a,t where responsibility devolved at all, it was infi rest u better that i t s h ould b e undivided than that it should w s ato "11 tw a o sep arate parties. He must say, then, that it tilo s arse which was more respectful to the Crown, and that ° , l ikely to ensure a judicious selection of magistrates, lie..itntu,e choice should be perfectly free, and not restricted to a er, e , i `q number nominated ba , the town-council.—( Hear.) He a re ; °gyred it quite right that the management of, and controul iah,.; tocal affairs Should be entrusted to those chosen by the anoalottants ; but it did not necessarily follow that justice ei ent n be better administered by those who owed their appoint eaa,, ro the men, on whose rights and property they were ae sta u a la adjudicate. This power was, in his opinion, propery eee s v i ; in the Crown, which was constitutionally and justly tli a i .acted the fountain of all justice. With respect to the p roa s '_° , n of the towns into wards, he saw no objection to the in of caf the Noble Lord on this head, by which the King 111 4 b ar n 'l was empowered to sanction the award of the revis at, t},sri.sters. He considered it truly desirable that in matters te aci i , important nature a power to amend or alter decisions elerl'_ ,I,l_.revising bairisters, who might he frequently young R alnt °:_ , little practical knowledge on such subjects, should be adh e , o n to the King in Council. The Noble Lord proposed to th at )a to the principle of qualification, though by what mode r eser i ee llna ilile should be carried into operation he intended . to of I,ooo7ntil to-morrow, lie apprehended that the qualification °f th e ' large places, and 3001, in small places for members Baca( co uncil, a, . , Wollia be agreed to. With respect to that qua to becorl which was proposed, by making those only eligible TLenbers of the tow:a-cow - leil who holonged to the stTN, LoNDON, tittgDAY, stlfiTEMlltß 1, 181 to rake up more dissatisfaction than by adopting any other course with respect to it which it was possible to conceive. He was satisfied that the Right Hon. Baronet would agree with him, that unless it gave complete satisfaction it wou ld tifeet no etitiflt: If It did tilt dd tlid!; it ttddld b reeeived hot as a boon, but as an instalment ; and the whole question would remain open and undecided. He entreated the Noble Lord, at any rate, not to yield to the House of Lords on the question of qualification. As to the aldermen, he ( Mr. Hume) tared not bs , what mune the members of the governing body Were td be Called. He dill not quarrel with that ; nut he did qttsr, eel hitli the ahnidonnient Of a serious principle. He intreated the Noble Lord, therefore, to tdtriply with the prayer of all the petitions from popular places on this point. tenth ente e r n e t d er l e ii d s s h o i: proposed[ te protest agagar,;;,agar,;;,c9ncrilrrin in the amendment the other House on the subject of qualiticaii,:n lie t in eourse pursued by such a body of fltlions as the House of [leers ; a hotly taut fOliteseibte to any one, utterly regardless of the public feeling, and an anomaly lit Government: If their powers were great, they ought at least to eaaritise them justly, fle hoped, also, that his Majesty's Ciovernment would not re-enact any part of the Test and Cor poration Act. Toleration 1 Toleration was a word that should be excluded from our language. What the country required *as just and equal rights ; nit toleration. Now, could it be Mailed a sloe of just and Meal rights that a member of a town council should be prevented from exercising the privilege s which his brethren enjoyed, because he did not happen to be a member of the Church of England ? Was that equality ? No, It wit§ inequality. It was indispensable that that provi sion in the Dill as it now stood, and the provision respecting qualification, should In resisted. The Bill would then be a beneficial measure. ateuld secure popular elections, it would secure frequent elections, it wont fecure ii due control over the ateclunta of a Corporation, and it would enrililg the in liaHititttts el tt oepoidtd fotii to determine w h o ihould super. intend their affairs. Let the House confider what had tic,;" the effect of efficient Corporation Ilefordi in gcotland. All the discontent and ekeiteffiMit which, prerietisly fa that re form, had existed between the governors and the goiortied i had tensed, There were in England some dozen of Corporations which already possessed the freedom of election to which he had adverted i and ir, those Corporations no dissatisfaction or discontent would be found to exist.--4 Hear, hear.) At any rate, let them not agree to anything contrary to the principle of the Bill ; for that Would be merely to sow the seeds of' Adult contention. It might postpone the matter - for a few months, but it could not prevent the pedfile of England from ultimately enjoying an equality of rights, and a just Control over their property. It was on the ground of the principle: which it Ceitiyelienged that be had hailed with satisfaction the Ititredildtidti of this itidaStife bits the House by his Ma jesty's Ministers. He trusted that they would Vete:teem that they would complete the proposed re f orm i n th e s pi r it in which they had introduced it ; and that having right, jus tice, and public feeling Ott their side, they would not surrender the slightest principle of the gilt. heaf s hears) Mr. GROTE begged to be allowed to say a few; Wdfda. It gave him great pain to say so, but lie could not help de- Oaring that he thought the Noble Lord had conceded more than either the occasion required, or the feeling of the public would justify. Nor, he must confess, had the Noble Lord, in his opinion, done justice to the subject under the conside ration of the House. Whatever he (Mr. Grote) might think of the proceedings of the House of Lords in other respects, lid was bound to acknowledge that they had resolutely adhered to their independent character: Now he thought it would not be artiiss if the House of Commons were to imitate the House of Lords in that particular, and adhere to their lode. pendent character. (Hear, hear, hear.) It would surely ill become the dignity of that House—,the assembled representa tives of the people of gnipand--to field Important principles merely for the purpose of conciliating the other House of Parliament. In so doing they would not consult either their dignity or their honour. When the people of England were fully and justly represented in that House, there ought to be do other power in the state which should be able to stand against them. He thought also that the Noble Lord, in introducing the concessions which he proposed to the House to make with reference to the measure, did not sufficiently treat those concessions as made under protest. Nay, one or two of them the Noble Lord actually vindicated on their own merits ; especially the proposition that a third of the town. cils should be chosen every six years. Now instead of treat ing this and other of the concessions, as bad in themselves, and as made only from motives of expediency, the Noble Lord seemed to speak of them as if they were right and good of themselves. Nevertheless, by these concessions some of the most important features of the Bill were sacrificed. Nor could he (Mr. Cirote) give Big onseot to the concession re specting wards. It might be recoilectdd, that When the pro position on the subject was originally made to the Hodge, he (Mr. Grote) had stated that in his opinion a population of twelve or fifteen thousand was too small to be so divided; and of course the evil must be enhanced when the number was reduced to nine thousand. He was very much afraid that if this proposition was agreed to, the town-council would in many cases be an instrument for corrupt purposes in the hands of a very few individuals. With regard to the question of qualification, he shared the feelings of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. In conjunction with the other pro- , ositions he was convinced that it would be singu larly unpopular over the whole country, and that it would be especially so in the city of London, where that principle had never been acted upon. He differed most materially from the Noble Lord in his opinion upon the manner in which the prin ciple of qualification had been embodied in the clause intro. duced by the House of Lords, providing that in large places it should be in the possession of property of the value of 1,0001., in small places the possession of property of the value of 500/. Why this difference? Why should the possessor of the value of property of 5001. be considered unworthy of an office of trust, if he happened to reside in a large city instead of a small town? At all events, let there be consistency in the affair ; let the same sum be a qualification everywhere. In his opinion, however, it was impossible that the clause could pass that House. He was sorry to oppose his Majesty's Mi nisters, for he had a great respect for them ; but with refer ence to this point, in conjunction with the other concessions proposed, he could not allow them to pass without recording his opinion of them. He was as anxious as the Noble Lord that the Bill should pass; but he was still more anxious that it should pass in a sound and entire state. Indeed he would much rather wait a certain time in order to get a Bill, of which he should in all respects approve, than barter away the best principles of the measure for the purpose of obtaining the im mediate consent of the other House of Parliament. And after all, it was by no means certain that the propositions of the Noble Lord would be satisfactory to the other House. If not, if they should require still more concession, that House would then regret that they had made so useless a sacrifice of the dignity of the people.—( Hear.) Mr. E WART, owing to the extreme fulness of the House, and time conversation going on among the Members, was very imperfectly heard in the gallery. We, however, distinctly understood the Hon. Gentleman to say that he considered the question of qualification with reference to its justice or in justice ; and that he was so entirely of opinion that it was un just, that he could not conscientiously vote for it. In his opi nion no qualification whatever was necessary. All experience bad shown that qualifications such as that which Was now proposed were not only unjust, but nugatory. If, therefore, he were called upon to vote upon the question, he should cer tainly vote against qualification. As to the rights and privi leges of the people with respect to common lands, the sound clause on that subject of the Right Hoe. Member for Tam worth had been omitted in the Bill by the Right Hon. Baronet's Friends in the other House of Parliament. The mode of appointing justices also had been altered, so as to re turn to that old system under which so much jobbing had taken place. It might be true that this question ought to be decided by conciliatory proceedings ; but it was also true that it ought to be decided in such a manner as should render the measure not only a good, but a permanent one. The House ought to manifest a steady resolution on that point. Although it was certainly desirable that the resistanCe to the amendments proposed by the other House of Par liament should be conducted with a due attention to calm and pacific feelings, yet that House ought to evince a steady resolution not to accede to what they considered unjust ; and for his own part, he could not relinquish one atom of his objection to those amendments. He only wished that the manners and the language of the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had been adopted by the Members of the other House of Parliament, who showed, by their conduct, that even in that respect they had much to learn from that House. The duty which lie had to discharge was a disagree able one, but lie felt that it was due to the people of England to discharge it. He did hope, however, that the Noble Lord would not give up the principle of non-qualification. The amendment made on that point by the other House, Was most absurd and unjust ; and lie had already said that lie put that, and all other questions connected with the measure, on the ground of their justice or injustice ; the only real and sound ground on which legislative proceedings could be founded. Mr. ROEBUCK observed that any stranger who had been in this country a few months would have seen a great and intelligent body, the House of Commons, after making every necessary inquiry, after paying all requisite attention to the subject, frame a large and judicious measure for the re form of some of the most important functions of the govern ment of the country. lie would then have seen this measure checked, impeded, mutilated, and treated with scorn by a small body of persons, time House of Lords, opposed to the people, and to their rights. He would have further seen the forbearance with which this attempt to trample on the rights and privileges of the people had been treated by the people themselves : he would have seen that they aimed solely at the peaceful legal acquisition of their wishes. But there was a point beyond which human forbearance could not be carried. To that point it appeared to him (Mr. Roebuck) that we were fast approaching. If the present were an isolated proceeding on the part of thoir Lordships, that consideration might, check the indignation which it was calculated to ex cite. But it was not a single act. The same spirit animated all the proceedings of the Upper House. The Irish Church Bill, the Irish Constabulary Bill, and in short everythii:,g done in the way of reform during the present session by the Com mons to be callesducht: Lords. Under p c o i circumstances, tales consider House of Commons, bad been rejected by the House or n try to be not, merely b. n y r s c L n a i i i e t n p o o r' s. s f i o b r l b e e a t h r l a n n t c t e h ? o c D o d n ot o o t u b l i d s o l t o h n e g r ( e l f !' e e c s t t l e n d s ( re contilme to go ort upon such a system ? To him it appeared 4 a s l o t ri l s h v i li o a u t s e n o li f ghtb - ' • hthe efficiency or non-effiei- of a question connected with .ency the Municipal Corporations Bill, but a ques tion r AI • to whether the wishes of the people should govern , o r t he will of the House of Lords. For himself, he was a oeniocrat to the uttermost:—(A laugh.) Democracy was ! scorned in the other House of Parliament ; and it appeared that even in that House there were some persons who en- .. tertained a cont em pt f or d emocrac y. Ho was not one °t, those.—(Hear, h ear ..? He was of the people ; he be lon g ed . to the - people; ; ;;.adto appeared that the w...she s the people ought to be paramount. What the people de sired ought to be law; and no Government should exist for a day which did not hold that doctrine. When the Noble Lord brought in his Bill to amend the representation of the npeople in the House of Commons, it was evident that he nelleVcd that there could be two co-existent bodies in the Legislature ; the one representing themselves. After the experience of the last few weeks, that man must be wilfully blind who did not perceive that the Lords were endeavour ing by side winds to regain what they had lost by the Re form Bill. He did not hesitate to say that the interests of the Lords were incompatible with the interests of the people. In the course of it week or two they had rendered null and void all that the Commons had completed after six months pains and labour. He did not concur with the Noble Lord, thereftim in the spirit of conciliation which he had expressed that evening'. it behoved the Commons to be firm—other wise the system and spirit of concession might be looked for *7yeiy year—lnd every autumn would find the representatives of tne peep)? undo'ng at the beck of the Lords all that they had commenced in the spring and completed in the summer. This was a state of things which when fairly and freely re presented the people of England ought never to allow: Already the people of the country bad come to the opinion that the interests of the Lords were incompatible with good Government.—(" Oh," and cheers.) If any one doubted the fact he would say it was folly demonstrated in the state of Ireland. All of good that the Commons had proposed for Ireland had been carefully destroyed by the Lords. If the system at present acted upon by the Lords were persisted in, it would become duty of the representative body to appeal to the people, to awake their sleeping energies, and to rouse them in masses almost to revolution.—( Oh, oh !) Why would this be necessary? Because daily experience showed that there was a body in the state, systematically op posed to good government. He asserted that the Lords at that moment were doing all they could to create something late for Ir e l an d. Th e H on . G E ke , revolution in the country.--( Oh, oh I and hear, hear.) lie could not agree with th e Noble repeaters :_hat if the Lords went on as th e y ci;;I they would :oncession which he co In de ,:ermination o f •-• the spirit or net lon ( g i l i t t a 4s ve xen t , o concluded by stating that Pbet: 'that occasion, lie thought to: neople had some eLvoierceled en thing more to expect from the &millets% and that House. Mr. ROBINSON had de'rived sincere satisfaction from the calm and temperate tone in which the debate had been conducted by all who had eaken part in it, with the single exception of the Hon. Member who had last spoken.--( Hear, hear.) That Heil; Member must pardon him for saying that it was he, and such as be, tieing language such as he used, who threw impe diments in the way cif wholesome and necessary reforms, greater even than those to whom lf ewas politically opposed. ( /leer. ) It was not his intention to detaih the House by mak ing more flint a few observations. He agreed entirely with the Noble Lord ( ilieneell)ehroughout the whole of his obser vations. He thought the Lefties' amendment with respect to town-clerks so highly objectionable, That the House ought on ntf Setettnt to concede it. As to the question of Dissenters having a voice in the distribution of Church patronage, he should agree with The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) upon the point, that it tnight be objectionable to allow those dissenting from the Church to have anything to do with the patronage of the Church, generally speaking; but when those persons were members of corporate bodice, having Church property in their gift, he thought the Right Hon. Baronet himself meet see that to draw the line between Churchman and Dissentefi wool& in fact, be to revive those old religious distinctions which Of fate years all had been so 'Wilgus to avoid.—( Hear. hear.) He trusted, therefore, that • the Right Hem Baronet would not press the House upon that point. There was Gilt point upon which, he was sorry to say, he was obliged to differ frail 'the Noble Lord, and that was the question of qualification. 'When elle Bill was originally in that House, he opposed the imposition of arty qualification whatever, because he really did not believe any gillifieation to be necessary. He had sufficient confidence in the Intelligence and good sense of the elective body to believe that they would choose for their town -council tieree persons who pos sessed all the requisite qualifications.—( Hear.) But to compel them to elect for, the government of their towns per sons possessing a certain pecuniary qualification, appeared to him to be not only unnecessary, but, on many accounts, highly objectionable. But though he differed from the Noble Lord (Russell) upon that point, so anxious was he to come to art amicable adjustment of the matter, that if the Noble Lord thought it necessary to adopt the quail acetic:in, he for one would not oppose it. He trusted, al though the session was now rapidly drawing to a close, that the House, before it separated, would allow this measure to pass into a law. It cOrittl)of4d, if not all the details that might be deemed desirable, at least the great and leading principles of municipal reform. If the Bill were thrown out altogether, he feared there would be throughout the country, and especially in the larger towns, a spirit of angry debate which would tend to prevent an amicable adjustment of the question in another session of Parliament. He for one, therefore, should heartily co-operate with the Noble Lord (Russell), and he trusted the House would follow the same example. Mr. WARBURTON merely rose to express his decided opposition to the amendment introduced by the other House, requiring a pecuniary qualification for the town-council. Such a qualification would be utterly unjust. There were many boroughs in which large agricultural districts were included within the limits of the borough. In each of these towns the farmers will be the 'highest rate-payers, and consee quently, though wholly unacquainted with municipal affairs, will become the only persons qualified to act as town-council lors. He trusted the Noble Lord would take this point into his earnest consideration. Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY contended that the alterations effected by the Lords had completely changed the character of the Bill, and rendered it unworthy the acceptance of the Com mons. Looking at their Lordships' recent labours, ho thought they might aptly affix upon their doors the homely inscription, " Mangling done here."—( A laugh.) Lefd JOHN RUSSELL said (as well as we could under stand, for his Lordship spoke in a tone of which scarcely a word reached the gallery), that as the debate upon the general question lied now lasted for some time, he would propose that the House should go at once to the consideration of that part of the Bill which related to the aldermen, and that when that point was disposed of, to proceed seriatim with the other amendments, postponing only the clause imposing the qualifi cation for the town-council. inaudible, A A f r r t . er o a O , M. FOLLETT, which were collision between both words from Sir W vhich had hitherto C f NNELL said that tn . ,: Houses had commenced. The discussions taken place had partaken of what was calico constitutional dissension—the discussion in each House hiad founts a termi nation in each House ; but a rebound had now taken piece, and that was what he called collision.--4 Hear.) It was manifest that something must occur to place the British Le gislature in such a situation that instead of going forward, or instead of being met by a series of checks, it should be actually stopped. See what an immense quantity of most useful mat ter had been stopped in the other House during the present session. Take England : What had become of the Executors and Administrators' Bill—a Bill of the utmost importance, do ing away with some of the grossest absurdities of the law ? It was cushioned. What bad become of the Execution of Wills Bill ? Cushioned.—( Hear.) What of the Prisoners' Counsel Bill ? Cushioned.—( Hear.) What of the Abolition of the Punishment of Death Bill ? Cushioned.—( Hear, hear.) What of the Imprisonment for Debt Bill ? Thrown out.—( No, no.) Oh, the same thing then—it was cushioned.—(Laughter and cheers.) Turn next to Ireland. What had become of the Irish Church Reform Bill—( Cheers )--the first honest expe riment to conciliate the people of Ireland by the Government of England? It was treated with indignity—(Hear, hear) — wholesale indignity—(Cheers)—twenty-five clauses annihi lated at one breath—not even the common decency of taking clause by clause—they were struck out by the gross, and wholesale contumely was cast upon Ireland.--( Cheers.) What had become of the Irish Marriage Bill ? It was thrown out ; and what was the result? Why, that in every instance where illegal marriages had been effected the innocent child alone was left to be punished. By the law as it stood the parents were not only held free from guilt, but were even allowed to indulge in licentiousness--the parson was free from punishment —nobody suffered but the helpless child.—( hear, hear.) What had become of the Irish Constabulary Bill? Thrown out on the most frivolous reason ever heard of—a reason so ridiculous as to be unworthy of even the meanest association of legisla tors.—( Hear, hear.) What had become of the Dublin Police Bill? He supposed it was at that moment going through the same process as the others he had mentioned. What had be come of the Irish Registry of Voters Bill ? He believed lie need not boast much of the spirit of prophecy to foretel what would become of that Bill.—( Laughter and cheers.) In short, as regarded England, the other House had evinced a determination to stop every thing that was useful ; and as to Ireland, they treated everything of conciliation or justice with Contumely and contempt.—(Cheers.) He repeated, the colli sion had begun. What, then, was their first duty ? The only magic in policy was to be right.—( Hear, hear.) Men could not always b e comp l ete l y right. The Noble Lord did not feel himself comp l ete l y r i g h t i n a ll hi s concess i ons . —( H ear , hear.) But nex t to b e i ng per f ect ly r i g ht y ourse lf, th e o ther great magic in policy was to make your adversary perfectly wrong.__( Cheers.) What would take place after the conces sions proposed by the Noble Lord? If the Lords should hold out after these concessions, was there any one in the British dominions who would not say that the Lords were perfectly wrong ?—( Hear.) If, after all, the Lords should refuse the B:11, then, indeed, would begin the collision ; and the House of Commons ought to begin it by being as right as it could— wrong only when it conceded too much—and making its enemies perfectly, entirely, and exclusively wrong.—( Hear, hear.) Well, would the Lords take the Bill as it was sent back them ? If they threw it out, then they meant a colli sion, and were determined to try whether, by another fashion, they could not recover all that was takea from them by the Reform Bill. Every body knew that the Lords were dicta torial upon the passing of the Reform Bill—Norwich, Har wich, Ipswich, and many places of the like kind, enabled them to have a majority in the Commons, and the nomi nees of the Lords really legislated for the country. The inform Bill had changed that state of things, and had made the House of Commons an independent body. If re. mained to be seen whether the Lords appreciated the new character of the Commons. This would be proved by the fact of their refusal or acceptance of the Bill when it was brought back to them. Then came the question for the Commons— ,' Is the Bill worth taking with all these concessions ?" He was decidedly of opinion that it was—( Hear, hear)—and he would explain why. In the first place, it swept away all the old leav en of tine old corporations. He thought somebody bad called this the tag-rag and bobtail.—( Laughter. ) The tag-rag and bobtail it would sweep away. Every self-ap pointed, self-elected body would be swept away. It would not cure, but it would cleanse the sore, and take- ont the gan eres72o foe: aldermen fn.): - life, the .jobbing . towe.- - clerks—these it would abolish. It would make a perfectly clear stage. It would get rid of all the old causes of abuse. He maintained, therefore, that if should succeed by these concessions, they would be gaining D ee . great and , n essential advantage. Any step towards populerity was a improvement. The Bill, as it stood, gave them universans; of constituency as far as the rate-payers went. It increrssed the number of those who were called freemen. Nothing was more absurd than what was termed the rights of 'free men. Those rights, as contrasted with the rights of those who were not freemen, were an usurpation. They were rights commenced in wrong and continued in wrung. They established a monopoly, and placed it in the hands of a particular class, who obtained the name of freemen. If they were freemen, then the rest of the community were slaves. When he was told, however, of the rights of freemen, he would ask where were the rights of those upon whom those freemen had encroached? But another advantage which they gained by this Bill was the extension of the basis of repre sentation, by giving every rate-payer a right to vote for the election of the municipal body. That advantage they would have, as well as that of clearing out the members of the old corporations. That advantage was a great one to commence with ; lie said to commence with, because the talking of finality was a mere absurdity. The value of this Corporation Bill, if it should again come down to that House with the intended amendments approved of, would be, that it would give them the machinery of purification, and would enable them to get rid of the incumbrances which Noble Lords might cast upon it for the purpose of the moment. Another advantage to be derived from the Bill was, that all the town council would be periodically elected.—(" No; not the alder men.") Yes ; because whether elected by one process or by another, they would still be an elective body. There would also be an extension of the suffrage ; all distinction would be done away as to the qualification of the electors, except one, which was preserved for other purposes, and from other mo tives. That exception was the difference between the inha bitants and the freemen. And why were these freemen kept up ? The motive was obvious, and be would tell it once. They were kept up that they might be cor „wt.: and bought with two sovereigns each, as at York, or thi z• as at Yarmouth. They were kept up for the purposes of iyiiher; and corruption by the poor man's friends. —(hear, heard who were the hereditary protectors of the poor. —( Ironical ehes.;,•) Why were these hereditary protectors of the poor so anxioui> to keep the rights of the freemen ? Why ? Because their frie2ds and relations might . hate an opportunity to buy their consme.nees. Was it for the love of God that they protected the pooi ? Was it for the working out the salvation of their souls ? 0, Pn. The pretence was plausible, but it had failed. The hypocrisy finally betrayed itself; for these hereditary protectors Of the poor had introduced a qualification clause with respect to Members of the Council, which showed that their only object in keeping up the freemen was, that they might be purchased by men who had the most money. Thus they detected at once their own hypocrisy.—(Cheers.) It was said that those whom Providence wished to destroy it first demented. At the same time that the Lords were so anxious to preserve the rights of freemen, they had introduced a qualification, which disabled those freemen from forming part of the Coun cil. Might not one of these freemen say—" lam a man of j integrity and of good character ; my neighbours love and ' respect me, and are quite ready to appoint me one of the Council—why should I not become one ?" To this very reason able interrogatory the hereditary protectors of the poor make answer, "0, no ; you are not rich enough. What avails your integrity or your good character, unless you possess suf ficient wealth wherewith to purchase the votes and consci ences of your fellow-freemen." Who was it that preached these doctrines ? The friends--the supporters of the poor ! Verily, he was glad that this was the way in which the colli sion had begun ; because it had betrayed the most barefaced hypocricy—the lupocricy of pretending to be the friends of the poor, when it was the wealthy alone that they regarded. It was a friendship for the extremely rich, who could afford to bribe the poor freemen for their votes. The House of Commons was therefore engaging in this collision with the great advantage, that of a total want of moral character in the proceedings of those who withheld the rights of the people. It was a great advantage to be over-forbearing. It was the bu siness of the King's Government to fall short of asserting all their rights ; let them, therefore, make the proposed cot` ' ces sions and then let the House of Lords throw out the Bill ii they dare. Thcre would no doubt be great excitement throughout the country, even at these concessions being made. Some hard words—perhaps some hard blows, at least of the tongue—would be dealt out in consequence of these conces sions; but the indignation of the people would fall doubly on the heads of those who, after these concessions, should refuse to be conciliatory, and to adopt this measure in its altered form. It would then at once be admitted that it was not upon principle the-Lords had acted, but upon a determination to stop every meastn - e for the amelioration of our institutions ; and thus it would be eiomonstrated that they possessed a power which they ought never to have had, and of which, so exer cising it, they ought most certainly to be deprived.—(Cheers.) But in the present stage of the business, what the House had to consider, was, whether in the concessions proposed to be Blade they were not going too far ? He approved of all the concessions that had been made. Not that he thought them right in principle ; but because he thought it right to show that it was not for the sake of an abstract principle, but for practic.il purposes that resistance wits made to the other amendments of the Lords. The thing that displeased him most was the qualification clause.—( Hear, h e str.) As it now stood it was the most iniquitous thing that over was pro posed. It was a most outrageous species of inquisitorial power in a commercial country to enter into a ,star's pri vate circumstances, in order to ascertain his fitness fo' exer cising the franchise of a citizen of the State. The Member for Bridport had shown the absurdity of the qur,:ii• cation as to rates ; but in other respects there was wickedness mixed with absurdity. Every shopkeeper and mercantile man, being a voter himself, might sign a notice and bring any other person before the public in order to investigate how much he owed, and to whom be owed anything. Thus a person might be induced to make an objection against a bur gess being on the list in order that he might obtain an admis sion of a debt of which be had no legal proof. He might be asked, if this be so iniquitous a scheme why consent to it? His answer was, simply and singly, that there might be no excuse for the Lords to reject the remainder of the Bill. He would even consent to it for the very reason which he began by stating, namely, that the enemies of this measure for putting down old abuses might have no excuse at all. To the management of this qualification, however, it was necessary they should direct all their attention. What ought there to be required from the party beyond a de claration of his qualification? Let there be a penalty against the man who made a false declaration.—( Hear, hear.) Put it upon the who challenged the qualification to prove the falsity of the eleche - ation in a criminal court. In that way they might qualify their ci:spositlon to go as far as they could in the am : thus put their enemies so much ti path of concession, the more in the wrong. He feh: a melancholy satisfaction at c ontrasting the conduct of this „AO that of the House of Lords towards of Ireland. At the eomt:'encement of a system of conciliation on the part of the Geyer's. nent towards that country, he saw the other House of Parame;".t attempting to continue the reign of misrule in Ireland. That was the dar flood God ling spot for every abuse and every oppression. sent an was it possible that the people of - England could ..on y longer to be overpowered by a miserable faction ? I,7er!! they not tired of six hundred years of oppression ? Over mail over again be had challenged them to tell him of any one advantiaat.'' that Ireland had derived from her connection with England. Every portion of the page of history had been always stained with the same crimes towards Ireland. At length lie had seen an Administration formed upon the basis, to extend the benefit of British Institutions to that country ; an Administration pre pared to make the experiment whether Ireland could be as well governed by England as she might be by herself; fur Ireland was not a petty country, or a paltry province. She was a nation of eight millions. If you did not give her good government, God forbid she should not seek it for herself ! —( Hear, bear, hear)—but God forbid she should at tempt it, so long as she was likely to get it from you, for her interests were identical with yours ; it was therefore necessary t h at s h e s h„ ;; Id be identified with you, not merely in name, but in all your institutions. But was be to be told, now that they had succeede,2 in having one branch of the Legislature willing to give good government to Ireland, that all their efforts were to be stopped, and that even persona lities, undeserving notice in common conrersat:on, should be come a reason for refusing justice to Ireland r'.--(Cheers.) He did not think that these observations were uncoseneeted with the subject before the House. The Lords ought In pause and meditate before they proceeded in this way. The 111.2 9, - her for Worcester had blamed the Member for Bath for using language of an extreme description. If what his Hon. Friend the Member for Bath had said was not founded in fact, it was vain as air ; hut if it was founded in truth—if it was justified by the conduct of the Lords—if his speech was one of reason and not of declamation, then the Member for Worcester might call lit mere declamation if he pleased ; but did he think that by his calling it declamation the words of the Hon. Member for Bath would be less appreciated by the people; or that the facts that they unfolded would not give to his words wings of fleetness, and weapons not to be resisted ?—( Loud cheers.) He put it to the Hon. Member did he doubt the truth of the observations of the Hon. Mem ber for Bath ? Let the Hon. Member look at the proceedings of the Lords—Let him look at the paltry ribaldry poured out upon them at the bar of that House.--( Loud cheers.) He had been told, forsooth, that they were not to restrain counsel in their observations, lest they should impair the freedom of speech. But were not appeals made before the House of Lords every day from the Exchequer Chamber, and from the King's Bench, and did ever any counsel or judge in the Lords get up and assail the King's Bench, or impute motives to the judges of that court ? Did they ever hear those judges ac cused of villainy, of robbery, of peculation, of plunder, of the violation of every corporate right, and of the spoliation of every charter ; in short, of crimes so numerously strung to gether that he should not have been able to remember them if lie had heard them, nor could he by any ingenuity have coined and linked such extraordinary phrases together? But all this had happened before the House of Lords. It never happened but once ; and that once was when the House of Commons was assailed for passing this Bill of amelioration, to the principle of which every man of every party in the House had assented.—( Loud cheers.) He was, therefore, right when he affirmed that the collision had at length come ; we bad only now to manage it properly. Let us take care to put our enemies in the wrong. Let us concede everything that it was possible to concede. Nay, let us even go further than what might be strictly deemed right : but when we have done that let us appeal to tho good sense of the British nation.--(Cheers from the Opposition, echoed back by the Mi nisterial benches.) Yes—to the good sense 'of the British nation,..-( Renewed cheering from both sides of the House.) Aad would they be a saalaiblo Im:ion if '-ftkey cemented that two hundred individuals, I care • should have the absolute power, at the for their caprice, or at the suggestion. passions, to control a nation of twenty-fe. a nation to he checked, controlled, and go dred individuals ?--(Tremendous cheering therefore, let us appeal to the good sense , . k ng i a . 7 l. They will understand when their re support. Let us likewise, and I ti deserve the;. - an‘ :ction and confidence to the Monet, great cheering)—to whom, having appeal its all the first step of Reform, it wits reigns over us—( Vey; n to consummate.th' at work great honour of sanctionti nional manner, by be the pride and glory of his : el ; .constitution of this coup_ a peaceable, quiet, and constis: render ing perfect the arrangements of the r pee . e . .e.nt the possibility try, and giving to the public voice, in a2 l the ramifications of that constitution, such power as hall of an unjust and selfish Oligarchy having any longer a control over the unanimous feelings and op inions of the ieeople. Mr. G A SKE LL was at a loss to reconcile the whole te flour of the speeches which be had heard from the opposite ( Ministerial) side, with the slightest regard for the eoostitu tion of the country—consisting of Kings, Lords, and Com mons—which, happily, had not yet been abrogated. Ile was glad, however, that those speeches had been made, bec.'suse it made the tactics of the party to which those Hon. Mem bers belonged no longer doubtful.—( Opposition cheers.) He was induced to address the House, because, if this debate were to be confined to the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen who held such opinions as had been this evening advanced, a most unjust inference would be drawn, not only of the gene ral opinion of the House, but of the people of England.--(Op= position cheers.) The Hon. Member for Bath had talked about the people of England; and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had told them that it was monstrous that 200 persons should control the opinions of 24,000,000. But he would venture to ask them whether it was to be borne that the people of England, who sent a majority of their represen tatives who held opinions directly the reverse of those just ex pressed, were to be slandered and maligned by those geotle men ?—(Great Opposition cheers.) It was in vain to tell the people of England that they had got a reforming Govern ment, who were entitled to the support of a reformed Parlia ment. The people of England knew what a reforming Go vernment was well enough. They knew the zeal which that Government had expressed to serve them; but they knew also that this pretended zeal had not effected anything for them. —( Oh, oh ! and Opposition cheers.) Every measure of sub stantial and practical reform, which would by this time have been the law of the land if the Right Hon. Baronet had con tinued in office, had been prevented, while the reforming Government had originated no Bills, except those which they well knew at the time they had not the power to carry. Was it meant to be said that the other House of Parlia mee! was to have no controul ovor the measures of the Legislature ? If this monstrous doctrine was to be as serted, let it now be openly avowed. Let Hon. Gentle men hasten on a collision. He was not afietid of it. The people of England would have no great difficulty in determin ing the rclatiae merits of those who held such ts n gu a g e, an d of - the men of rank, property, and intelligence of the country. ( Opposition cheers, and ironical cheers from the -Ministerial side.) It was an easy matter to extend the democratic func tions of that House beyond its just and natural boundaries. But, if they did, they would rue the hour; and the people of England would rue the hour when they consented to transfer the power now held by the three co-ordinate branches of .the constitution—King, Lords, and Commons—into the hands - of the agitators of Ireland and the ag itators of England. Mr. CHARLES BULLERdid not wonder that his Hon. Friend should be quite shocked at any intemperate language that might be used ; it was, however, fortunate that there ex isted some temperate and sage men in the House.—( Laughter. ) But he could not understand the extraordinary scruples about one House of Parliament speaking of the other. Three or four years ago the House of Lords spoke of the House of Commons in no measured terms. But God forbid that any one should think of upsetting the House of Lords. All that he wished to do was to call the attention of the House to a subject which had al ready engaged the attention of the people—he meant the ne cessity of a reform of the House of Lords.—(Cheers.) It was well to consider whether it was possible that an unreformed House of Lords could go on with a reformed House cc Commons —(Cheers)—whether it was possible, after having done away with the irresponsibility of this House, they could go on with an irresponsible House of Lords, tempered as it was with very I:ttle respect for this House? A collision had taken piste. It` was not a collision of a moment ; it was a perpetual col lision between two irreconcileable branches of the Govern ment; s and it became wise and constitutional men to set them selves aboOt devising a wise, moderate, and constitutional re medy of a permanent nature for an otherwise permanent evil. With regard to the amendments, it was said that they had left the principle of the Bill intact. They had done so in words, but they ;sad violated the principle in fact. The whole of the amendneents were hostile to the principle of the Bill. The Hon. and ,Learned Gentleman then enumerated the various alterations mace in the Bill by the Lords, which he contended were all detrimental to the original measure as passed by the Commons. The House, therefore could not doubt the animus with which the amendments were made; nor would the House be taken in by the paltry and odious pretext that they were made from a feeling of sympathy to wards the poor ; a pretext which he .never heard but he was sure the man who used it did so for the purpose of making these poor the degraded instruments of the corrupt designs of the rich.—(Great cheering.) Though he was perfectly con vinced of the utter impossibility of working with the House of Lords, still he agreed with Mr. O'Connell, that it was their duty, considering the important interests confided to them, to proceed as peaceably and temperately as possible ; and never put themselves in the wrong, but put their opponents in the wrong in the eyes of the country. He would therefore abandon his own, and adopt the concessions of the Noble Lord; but he did so from a paramount motive, and not be cense he did not entertain very strong objections to many of tires.n concessions. bar s BROTH E R.TON offered a few remarks to the !louse, ,'gut they were not audible in the Reporters' Gallery. Mr. N.:712,K S expressed a wish that the House should pro ceedto „, ; • ete ler the Lords' amendments, without any further general discuears'n• Mr. T. ATT POD entered his protest against what he considered a compecenise with the Lords. If his Majesty's Government and this House made themselves the rampants between the House of Los . ds and the public feeling, the con sequence would be that ban the Government and the blouse would be contaminated w i t h nn,' odium that now attached to the House of Lords. The Gov,`lminent would contaminate itself, and this House would contane ; fiats itself.—( A laugh.) 1 n his opinion the House of Lords W01...1d reject every attempt to conciliate them—by adopting their ameodments they would throw out all the amendments made by this House, and com pel us to take all their amendments or none. He therefore would not consent to take the whole of the Amendments. In his opinion, such a course would give the House of Lords such influence, that they would throw out the Bill entirely— they would then throw out his Majesty's Ministers—and then they will throw us out.—(Great laughter and cheers.) They will send us before our constituents with all our blushing honours upon us.----( Great laughter.) I believe that many gentlemen, when they go before their constituents, will rue their votes this night. I believe, in my conscience, that his Majesty's Ministers and the aristocracy know little or nothing of the feelings of the people. They look at the late elec tions, and judge that because there was a nearly equal fight between the Whigs and the Tories—they judged that the people are apathetic, and do not regard tile great question a l " British libert Never were men more deceived,—( Lotad cLeek's7) The people did regard British liberty, and they e„ end always did, but they did not regard the Whigs.— ( Hear, ht.'ir.) Thei:. efforts were dioa2ted against the Whigs as much ae ;Tainst the Tories, and the consequence was, that the great ne'ss of the British people left the fight at the late: election in the hands of the two great parties.—( Hear, hear.) If the Whirrs 111.4 pot contaminated thernselve: with the Irish Coercion Bill- (lwar, hear)—and other measures of a tyran nical and unjust natu..t., in my opinion the late elections would have shorn a very different. result.--( Cheers.) 'Trio mass of the people tvould have been excited, and upon rho stream of their enthusiasm, the freehoiLlers of England wouid have been carried away by the public excitement, and I am sure that if his Majesty's Mini3ters wilt now pull op—( Cheers and laughter)--if they will fight manfully, and insist upon carryieg the Bill ir, al[ its integrity, without any alteration in the sligirt est degree, they will be the most powerful Ministry that ever existed.—( Cheers.) I therefore most respectfully urge the the Noble Lord to send back the Bill to the Lords as we sent it a month ago, and most neglectfully urge them to reconsider their 150 abominable impro, ements or amendments, and to adopt the Bill as we sent it to them a month age.— ' Lurid cheers.) If the Noble Lord will tike this course, I shalt b' very grateful to him, and I will give him every sup port in my flower ; bet if lie persevb.. - es, it will 1.,e very painful to me, but t. mower give him my most decided, but I fear very humble and ineffeettell, opposition.—( Cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSLL then referred to clause E. page 18 of the Bill, which enacts " That the mayor, aldermen, and councillors to be chosen in each borough together shill consti tute the council of the lorourrh," and moved that the weeds " which aldermen shall hold their offices for life," be struck out. The principle involved in tln: amendment was whether aldermen should continue for life et- for a. limited period, and as no Hen. Member on either side or th, , House had :,aid one single word in favour of time continuance* Of aldermen for life, ho expected that he should meet with a g eeeral concurrence in the course which he proposed.—( Hear.) Mr. SC AR L ETT said, that this itmendinetV - would have the effect of abolishing dignities and offices which had been secured by the charters of the boroughs. This he did not consider proper. He thought that aldermen ought he for life. --(Oh, oh.) He thought also that the House of Lords had gone further than they did go.—( A laugh.) The Bill Mg founded upon improper principles from the beginning, and his opinion was that the House of Lords would have been justified in rejecting it altogether. Mr. LA W could not disguise from himself the utter hope lessness of any further struggle upon this subject, after the de claration of the Right Hon. Baronet. He thought the abo lition of the privileges and dignities now existing in cer tain individuals, was the greatest possible injustice to those individuals. It was not to be thought that those privileges were worthless, for lie could assert that they were great and valuable. He only wished to record his opposition to this amendment, and to state that the grossest misrepresentation bad been raised as to the conduct of the persons who at present hold offices under the corporations. Sir ROBERT PEEL said the proposition objected to by his two Hon. Friends who spoke last, was not that to which he had objected, nor would he have been prepared to support such a proposition as they had advocated. Mr. CHARLTON said that if the principle of popular elect ion micro once agreed to. thee was no ;.:aviog where they w:..uld:-.top. The principle of hot amendment might nett 1:0 one-sixth class of rate=payers, who paid the highest amount of rates, he thought it to be one to which, if it stood alone, great et!jeCtion might fairly be taken.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) If these twoqualifieatZms' toWeVer, were joined, it might be thought to ;,„ a eohsideri A hly to the *bore tliqo xlicl,tenkt 12.3 eligible te lye 'eletted to the teiVe-Ctint*ff. If; in Addition to this ehari . s,re, a tianse Were intriielneed lh conformity with the suggestion which lie hail already offered in that House, that the candidates for the council should be required not to SiSlsiergo an examination into their pecuniary affairs before the revising barristers (an ordeal whleli sooner thati litibmit to, they would, he believe& not Wish to bectint t 'iiiin s Pillor§ et all), hut to m a k e s isl e r ed InsieAd of suffering an inquisition into their preperty—if these changes were made, he repeated, they would, he thought, be likely to answer ins views of all parties.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the tolls, the Noble Lord complained that a great set of injustice had been done to the House of Commons lay the ainendnir3iit introduced by the House of Lords If etiy one bad a right to complain of these alteration's it was he ( Sir Robert Peel) for the Noble Lord had read an extract from a speech of his which was very accurate, and which conveyed lib tipiniong in at least as good language as he tetild express them, and the Noble Lord admitted that the principle of the appropriation of tells Was there clearly laid down, and should have been adopted. The House of Lords, IMlVeveri ttefe not tit the same opinion ; and he could contrientionsly say, that the change which they had eireeted hi this part of the measure he did not consider to have cast the slightest reflection upon him,—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He thought it wholly unnecessary to impute, as the Noble Lord had done ) injustice to the House of Lords because they had altered the preamble of the Bill for reasons which they Stated, and in conformity with their views on the subject of tolls, amongst others. He really did not feel so extremely sensitive as to Impute to the Heine of Lords an act of injustice to that House, mid desire for spoliation, because they made alterations le that part of the Bill which the Noble Lord stated to be in perfect keeping with his (Sir It. Peel's) expressed opinions.—( Hear, hear.) " I hope I may be allowed to say (continued the Right Hon. Baronet), in perfect good humour, that I tailliot help enter• taining a slight suspicion that the eohlthetitt of the Noble Lord on this part of the amendments introduced by the House of Lords were made by way of compromise with some of his more ardent supporters, and that he conceived that three or four hard words spoken of Sir Charles Wetherell and of the unjust preamble of the Hottso of Lords, wekild reconcile these Gentlemen to the adoption of the propositions which he laid down when they found the Noble Lord so exceedingly vi *o= roue in his denunciation of the other House of Parliament.' -- (Cheers and laughter.) With roped tti the rights of frees men, the House of Lords ) , ,he found, totili a different from the majority of that MOO, He was perfectly willing to admit, (as he had already said in the speech quoted by the Noble Lard,) that in many instances he should not object to the resumption of property by the Corlinichialty, taking especial care that every legal and vested interest sho4id in the most oaritpulous degree, be protected. He quite agreed, too, with the Noble Lord, that after giving compensation to individual interests, or even by buying up the tolls, if necessary, every member of a trading community should be placed upon a perfect equality in all commercial concerns.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord proposed to alter the clause which confined the power of appointment to benefices under the control of the Corporation to members of the Estab lished Church. There he totally differed from the Noble Lord--( Cheers from the Opposition)--and while he consented to the adoption of the principle that no distinction in point of religion should be made where any secular office was in guess tints, or where civil rights, or rights of trading, or any thing In the nature of ci v il employment Or emolument were con cerned, vet when the qualification of the ministers of the Church of England is the matter to be determined, if the right was to continue in Corporations it was only proper and just to re serve it to the members of the Church of England who be longed to that body.--(Opposition cheers.) And he could not, for the life of him, see the slightest reflection on the Dis senters in disqualifying them for deciding on the capabilities of a minister of the Established Church.—(Renewed cheers.) A cry of want of toleration was raised against this principle ; but really there ought to be toleration towards the Church of England as much as to the Dissenters.---( Cheers again.) He could not help expressing that it was his belief that this toleration was unilateral, and he ventured to say, that if certain chapels belonging to Presbyterians, Unitarians, or Independents, were endowed in this co u n try, a nd th a t it was proposed that the choice of their ministers should be vested in them, it would be denounced as a proposition of the grossest intolerance, and it would be most justly and fairly charged against him that he had no right whatever to appoint Ministers of whose qualifications he could not possibly be a competent judge.—( Continued cheering.) This was an amend ment which when proposed by him in that House, even the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin assented to. The Noble Lord too, who he believed took an active part in those discussions respecting the veto, must recollect those passages in Burke in which he referred to the members of one church deciding on the qualifications of the Ministers of another, and of the control over the Greek Bishops ex isting at Constantinople, and the general principle which he laid down was, that dissentients from that church could not have the same interest in securing good 'Ministers ; that they had not the same means of judging of their requisite qualifications ; but above all that their appointments would never challenge the respect or win the affection of the great mass of the members of the Church over which such a power was exercised.—( Cheers.) He believed he had now referred to most of the important points in the Noble Lord's speech, and he should not have felt justified in taking up the time of the House on matters of detail, particularly when there would be in all probability a separate discussion on each amendment, if the Noble Lord had not taken a collective view of the whole of them : a course which he felt compelled to follow. He could not conclude without expressing an anxious hope that the perfect independence which they claimed for them selves would be willingly extended to others, and that all ' being at perfect liberty to consider these amendments, they might arrive at the desired conclusion, that in the present session of Parliament this question should be finally settled.— ( Cheers.) He believed it to be the prevailing and unanimous wish of the country, so wearied by political discussions and dissensions, that this measure should pass as to be law. They might depend upon it, that in supporting another branch of the Legislature in its independent character they would best pre serve their own character for dignity. The points on which they were at variance were comparatively immaterial; the great principles of popular control and annual election were approved of by both branches of the Legislature.—( Cheers.) After the Bill having been sent down by the House of Lords, if this question were not now settled, it must be settled in the course of the next year, and in his conscience he believed that the measure would prove the more satisfactory to the inhabitants of the whole kingdom if it were asserted now, and thus prevent that excitement and those party differences in every town in which it was intended that a new municipal body should be established.—( Cheers.) There was an additional reason for the settlement of this question There were many clauses in the Bill which, perhaps unnecessarily introduced, led many of the existing corporate bodies to believe that a serious eneroachment on their rights would be attempted ; and the consequence was, that an opinion prevailed—which he considered to be one of great injustice to these bodies— that they would oppose any aggression upon their rights and privileges. This impression, though he had no doubt unfor tunate, was an additional reason why this settlement should be made. Under these circumstances, his first wish on that occasion was, that they should uphold the perfect independence of the House of Lords, with the same zeal as they would de fend and protect their own privileges ; and, if his second hope, that he might be somewhat instrumental in promoting an ami- • cable settlement of this question, were realized, and if he should effect that object, he should certainly not regret his presence at their deliberations that night.—( Loud cheering for some minutes. ) Mr. HUMS, after complimenting the Right Hon. Baronet on the concessions which he had made in his speech, said that there was one principle on which he should join issue with him, and that was with respect to the right of Dissenters to nomi nate Ministers of the Established Church to the benefices un der the control of the Corporations. He could never consent to the Bill while it contained this provision, for it was but re newing the Test and Corporation Acts after they had been long abolished.—( Cheers.) Was it not monstrous that Dis senters should be excluded from the power of nomination to such benefices, when it was notorious that a Dissenter might purchase an advowson, and nominate whom he pleased to it ? ( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He, for one, was for throwing out this Bill with the amendments which had been introduced into it, because he considered these amendments to be made in utter defiance of that House, and from a determination to resist the wishes of the people.--( Loud cheers.) The people must eventually have full satisfaction given to them on this subject. If the Noble Lord wishes to give them satisfaction in the present instance, let him restore the clause in the Bill which declared that there should be no qualifi cation. It was not with him (Mr. Hume) a question between one kind of qualification and another. He was convinced that there was no mode of qualification whatever which would not be open to insuperable objections. What did his Majesty say in his speech from the throne ? Did he not, ad dressing both Houses, express his hope that such measures of reform would be adopted as would give satisfaction to the peo ple ? Now did any one suppose that this measure, such as it was proposed to make it, would give satisfaction to the people ? He told the Right lion. Baronet that it would not; and he greatly regretted, therefore, that the Noble Lord had gone so far with his concessions. He was especially opposed, how ever to the qualification, and he hoped that the original clause in the Bill'would be carried by a large majority. They who were desirous that the Bill should be effective, should not stop until they had rendered it so. Why were a body of irresponsible persons like the House of Peers to oppose the just rights of the people ? What qualifications had they? Was it property, or what? If they had no qualifications themselves, why did they throw obstacles in the way of the present measure, by insisting on qualifications in others ? The Peers seemed determined to tread on the rights of mil. lions who were anxious to maintain what the Right Hon. Ba ronet had called a mixed and balanced Government. For the present was only one of the instances in which they had shewn their hostility to the rights and privileges of the people. If every measure of reform were to be treated in this measure, and thrown out by the House of Lords, he begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet what opinion the House of Lords could expect the people to entertain towards them ? If such a course were persevered in, it would not be long before the people would demand a reform of the other House of Parliament. Were the House of Commons to reform themselves, and was the other House of Parliament to remain entirely unreformed ? He had supported his Majesty's Government as long as Iv could, consistently with his sense of duty to the people ; if they r es i ste d the rights of the people—if they resist out pular reform —what could they expect from him? ' r ' 4d pass in its p resen t nnitilated and impaired st- }pi the ll': would. be . _ :x~ ~' - N