The Sun. — London, England, 1848-05-16 00:00:00

,THE SUN t , LONDO TUESDAY s EVENING-, MAY 16, 1848. Mr. Bancroft's language to me was—" We are ready to do anything you will do. If you can do but little, we would do b u t li tt l e. If you will do much, we will do much too. If you will do all, we will do all."—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I requested Mr. Bancroft to put his views into shape in a formal communication, and the conse uence was a letter which he addressed to my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which I will take the liberty of reading to the House:— " American Legation, Nov. 3, 1847. " The undersigned, Envoy Extraordinary and Minis ter Plenipotentiary of the United States of America, has the honour to inquire of Viscount Palmerston, her B ritannic Maj es t y ' s P r i nc i pa l S ecretary o f S tate f or Foreign Affairs, if her Majesty's Government is inclined to remove existing restrictions on international cum nlerce. Universal reciprocity, in the widest sense, is held by the American Government as the only thoroughly appropriate basis for intercourse between ! 1, 0 great nations. The prohibition of the indirect trade tag but restrained enterprise; it has done good to neither c ountry. T o abrogate it would at once set free dormant commercial wealth, without injuring any one. Should her Majesty's Government entertain similar views, the undersig ne d o i s prepared, on the part of the Amer i can f 1 'eminent, to propose that British ships may trade !folli any port in the world to any port in the United .ates, and lae received, protected, and in respect to charges and duties treated like American ships; if, re ii.l,,lit°"llY, American ships may in like manner trade Y Port of the world to any port under the domi lon of her Britannic Majesty. The removal ot corn taa.ercial restrictions, while it would be of mutual could to the material interests of both countries, ' a ou,ld not but give openings to still further relations of __ ln ltY between them, and by its influence on the inter cotirse of nations, the world. create new guarantees for the peace of S • . " GEORGE BANCROF. T d ." t Sir I will not read the reply of my Noble Friend sledancroft; suffice it to say, that my Noble Friend on the part of her Majesty's Government, that they did not feel themselves at liberty to enter into nego tiations with the United States of America upon prin ciples o b v i ously subversive of the navigation-laws as they n ow stand, and although they conceded that such a !purse would not be justifiable on the part of the Bri - ;ash Government without the previous sanction of Par lift meat, yet h er Majesty's Government were prepared to make to P ar l iament such recommendations as they T!usred would meet the views expressed by Mr. Bancroft b pa r t of the Government of the United States. Sir, con currently with that warning from Prussia, twalleie whole I be lieve, Prus s i a gave not on l y in t h e name o f hole of Germany, but in the name of ell other countries so restricted, with that warning we had this invitation from America. I think this did constitute an opportunity which I should indeed lament to see thrown sure of f anb although I am quite aware of the pres- f this session, public besiness on the House in the course of . ' lo h. yet I should indeed have lamented if her Majesty' Government had been obliged, by an y cir curastances, to forego the offerlievin givin g this House, at the least, of availing ourselves of this opportunity, be tkat e t g h " I d. 0 , not only that it is of great consequence , navigation-laws should be placed on a sound 1111 Q pro f , that n pe r : ' °n tior4, but also that it is of consequence o time should be lost in availing ourselves of this (3 ‘ ,„ P h P i e e rta iY, and that say hould not follow that course i i , I am sorry to has attended all preceding alterations of our navigation-laws, namely, come some what too late, and not until great practical evils have tibeen entailed on the country. Sir, I have now stated to I e House , in a general manner, what the law is, and . have stated to them my reason for believing that it youldise inc ons i stent with the interests of this country to maintain the law in its present state. I will now proceed to state to the House what are the alteratioils - which, on the part of her Majesty's Government, a ro prepared to make. And, Sir, I will begr h With those parts of our navigation- laws wh i ch J• do not propose to alter. Sir, it is not my intention to recommend to the House to make any material alteration with regard to the coasting trade to this country. It is not that I am unable to say to th e R ouse that I believe that if we threw open the coasting trade foreigners could by no possibility, to any great xtees e -- ea avail themselves of it. On the contrary, .1 ant bound to admit, that if there is any part of our na.vi "i°n-htves that is more protected by nature from foreign Interference than another, it is the coasting trade of this count ••• -- rY• • But Sir, on the other hand, if that is the case, - think it must' be admitted also that throwing open the wasting trade would produce no very great amount of good. But if foreigners are by nature practically eve that ex eluded f rom our coas ting trade, I cannot believe admi tting them by law would produce any very great amount of good. Under these circumstances, Sir, my desir e is not to recommend to the House any alteration Which I thi n k I ca nnot lay a . foundation for in a case of urgent and absolute necessity , and in professing that opinion I shall, tcl;rinckun do more in consonance with prudence and circumspection in dealing with i subject of this magnitude, in which the feelings as Well as the interests of this country are deeply involved—l say, Sir, I shall do more in consonance with that prudence and circumspection, seeing that there Would be no benefit by throwing open the coasting-trade —seeing also that there is no chance that foreigners may imitate us in this respect, believing that it would cause very considerable alarm among the merchants and ship owners, and other classes in this country—alarm which I should not myself share—l confess that on the whole it is a more prudent and convenient course not to ask the H ouse t o i n t e rfer e with th a t case. I will also add, that we should create a difficulty with regard to our re venue, the revenue police of our coast, by the admission of foreigners to the unrestricted privilege of our coasting trade. On this ground her Majesty's Government have come to the determin a ti o n o f n o t r ecommen di ng t o this House to interfere with the navigation laws as they new stand with regard to the c o a sting trade. Sir, for reasons somewhat similar, but I think stronger in degree, I also do not intend to propose to the House to make any alteration in the law which restricts the fisheries to English vessels. I do not propose e to alter th e nav i gat i on l aws w ith regard to th fish er i es of this country. The whale fisheries will be a ffected indi rec tly by th e general alteratio n fisheries we which we Propos e t o ma k e, b u t w ith o ur own do not p ropose any alterat i on. B ut , Sir, having made these two reservations, I confess that I shall propose to this House to deal in a very general manner with the re mainder of the syst e m of o ur navigation-laws. The tr uth is, it a ll h angs toget h er . It is very difficult to se parate one fro m anot h er . Upon the best consideration 't have been ena bl e d to g i ve t o the subject, I believe there would be little practical advantage in doing so. An d moreover, I am bound to say, having looked into "wae?, of the s evera l remain i ng parts —l mean those parts k importation_ - ;"Leh r estr i ct the of goods from the ports of As ia , Afri ca , and America, and from Europe, into this ceu ntry other t h an i n B rit i s h s hip s —l w i ll say that part ° I our navigation•laws which is designed to protect our eharrying trad e , I say I cannot b e li eve th a t this country " anY. real interest in retaining those—at least as far as regards foreign countries that may be disposed to reel s With us in respect to these matters. I therefore tPose, by A ct of Parliament, altogether to strike from .„ e sh tatu te - book the ex i st i ng s y s t em .—(Ch ee rs.) But all advise the House not to deprive the Queen in v a ouneil of that power which she already possesses under s i l ' e ta sh anY statutes, of imposing countervailing duties, if treat -411 8° t hink fit, upon any foreign nation that may this our ships with injustice. I do not propose that p s P e ° Bo w t e h r s t hould be obligatory on the Cro . wn. I do not d f th int erests ;• , where it may not be considere or e hi s 0 thi s eountry—for the mere sake of returning ow for this for Crow n sh the mere sake of retaliation, that the °pant .fould be obliged to impose restrictions on any lions rYI the y should think fit to impose similar restric t would be our navigation. But, Sir, I do not think it of all expedient so completely to strip this country w ort o lVwer, under all possible circumstances, under any f oreig n aggravation or injustice, of retaliating on a whte ett . power, as to deprive the Crown of that power h it already possesses under so many Acts of Par ah:lent Plai n • I do not know whether I have clearly ex s ed to the House the plan which I propose. 14 r k PEEL —With regard to the fisheries? . ' r• L Ram AB OUCLIERE—I mean no alteration with re -n_, . to the fisheries whatever. The privileges which h ive, vessels have on our coasts now they will still n ,`7,,. They rest not more on the navigation laws than tmattne treaties and international rights, and the law of I°ll3 . I do not propose any alteration there. And nowthe 48 to the views of the Government with regard to oth navigation laws, properly so called. But there are of er elaactrnenss, which I adverted to at the beginning es„tn theeech, which it is absolutely necessary I should 2". attention of the House to in conjunction with these alterations. These are the acts which r egulat e t h e character of British vessels—l mean the cminership, building, and manning. Sir, I think in ex- P ° !ing the British shipowner in this manner to the unre strteted competition—it may be with all parts of the atvoorld—l think it is but reasonable that we should afford the i t ni every facility in obtaining his ships at to do aeapest rate.—(Hear hear.) I therefore propose th e ri : h aY with that restriction which at present limits built % h i '. equally to British registered as to British ... L is ,. I shall be 'entitl A P rn Pse that a ship built abroad to ownerahip, e i te be British registered. With regard There not alteration. propose to make any material law which I 511 0 4 1 4 , r a s ome anomalies in the present to the general p r i ne n'Pose to redress, but with regard do not intend to ni d e e t s t of registering British ships, I registering the manni4Y i ehange ; and with regard to British ships engageti in still to require that se the coasting trade should have crews entirely consplo I do not propose to alter the d °F British seamen ; and crews of British ships engaged itiwiti7et eerieggnatrrdaelten but thn Brit jui.d have two-thirds of still to require that they their crews composed of Ps, e is one n m on a - - nected with the manning of our s t i l l i seamen.irthre before II terial alteration which I propose. I allude proceed, to the question of apprentices. But ith regard to should say that there is one alteratio ort! Britishlhlndi manning which I propose, namely, t h a n seas the Lascars shall have the character p a r m o i a ( i ? n s e - Then, for I think it really is absurd and unjust "a tain a distinction in that case, and therefore wet to place the Lascars on the same footin g as seamen, believing they are entitled to it Britishl,, their excellent conduct, and by the fidelity which theY have shown to the British nation. I propose altogetii,-, to abrogate the necessity which i 3 now imposed on British ships of taking apprentices. I believe that obligation is one of the most burdensome nature, anti I believe it is of no use whatever in increasing the quantity of British sailors, or in manning ou r navy . I believe that i t h as totally failed in that respect, and is a most unjust restriction placed on the British shipowner. At resent, its effect is such that one sixth of the crews of British ships it is calculated consists of boys. But the consequence which this violent disturbance of the labour market of this partinnlar branch naturally produces is to drive the able-bodied 34 amen out of the ships into which 14 egs boys are introduced. Us is obliged to take himself do the Aua • e n °4l % 11117 Y, QV the Swedish nary, or say other navy where he can find employment, because we have overstocked the labour market of our commercial marine by calling these boys into the service, and driving out the able-bodied seaman. My own belief is, that instead of answering the object it was intended to promote, namely, of increasing the nnmber of able-bodied seamen in the British navy, and thus making a nursery for our military marine, it has produced exactly the reverse, without in the slightest degree increasing the number or improving the character of the seamen engaged in our commercial marine. The law now obliges a certain number of apprentices to be taken in proportion to the tonnage of every ship, and I propose to abrogate that, by leaving it perfectly free for every shipowner to em ploy boys and men as he thinks fit. I cannot help on this point reading the evidence giving before the Navi gation-law Committee by Sir Edward Stirling last year : —" It throws the older persons out of employment at times when trade is not very brisk, and leaves them no alternative but to seek employment in foreign service. The law requires that about a sixth part of the whole number of seafaring persons shall at all times be appren tices; but, if too many seamen are made by this process, the hardship falls upon the old sailor, who is thrown out of employment, or is prevented from gettieg full em ployment. It appears to be an arbitrary interference with the labour market; is at all times a hardship upon the shipowner, and at certain times a hardship upon the seaman." Mr. Duncan Dunbar says, "We being compelled to take apprentices entails a very consider able expense, and very considerable inconvenience, If not obliged to send boys, I should send a ship with twenty able-bodied men. I now send her with fourteen able-bodied men and six ordinary men, and six appren tices. The ships could be better manned if we were not compelled to send boys, and there would in that case be more security for the lives of the people on board." Sir, I think I have now stated the outline of the measure which I propose to the House on the part of her Ma jesty's Government. Mr. HERMES here, across the table, in a low tone of voice, requested some furt her explanation. Mr. LABOUCHERE—I will recapitulate the propo sition. I propose to preserve, unaltered, the coasting trade and the fisheries of the mother country, and of the colonial possessions of her Majesty. With regard to the coasting trade of the colonies, there is a modification which I omitted to state, which I will allude to presently. With that exception, I propose absolutely to throw open the whole navigation of this country of every sort and description. But I propose to retain to the Queen is Council the power of appointing such restrictions upon the navigation of foreign countries as she may think proper, if those countries do not us meet on the same terms. We do not render it obligatory on the the Queen in Council to exercise that power, but we enable her to do so, as may seem best for the interests of the country. With regard to the coasting ltrade of the colonies, in the Bill I shall bring in, to preserve it in the same manner as I do the coasting trade of the mother country - but I also propose to allow each co lony, if it shall think fit, to pass an Act throwing its coasting trade open to foreign countries, and that Act; with the consent of the Queen given in the regular way, will enable the colony to deal with its coasting trade ss it shall think best. It was necessary to do this in order to place Canada in a right position. Our object is to give the colonies, as far as possible, the most unlimited power of making their own navigation-laws. If the colonies wish to have their coasting trade thrown open, I should be very sorry to prevent them so doing ; and therefore we propose to enable the legislatures to adopt any measures they please with the consent of the Crown— Mr. GOULBURN—Antigua, for instance. Mr. LABOUCHERE That is the inter-colonial trade. We propose, that by a Bill, the colonies may make their own navigation• laws, but that the Queen 'shall have the power of restriction, as I previously stated. I will now shortly recapitulate my statement with regard to the manning, ownership, and build of vessels. I propose that to entitle a vessel to the cha meter of a British ship it shall not be necessary that she shall be British built, but it shall be necessary that she should be a British-owned ship. I also propose a restriction as to men in the same proportion as now ex ists. The whole crew of a coasting vessel must be British, and a foreign trading vessel must have three fourths— Lord GEORGE BENTINCK—You said two-thirds before. Mr. LABOUCHERE—I made a mistake, I do not propose to alter that regulation . But I propose alto gether to do away with th necessity of having a certain proportion of apprentices. This, Sir, is the outline of Ilse alterations which I have ventured to submit to the consideration of Parliament. I do not disguise from myself that they are of very grave and serious nature—that they go to the founda tion of what we have hitherto considered as the navigation-laws of this country. I can assure the House that it is only after the fullest and most mature consideration, after having come to the complete con viction in my own mind that the course which I propose is really the best for the great interests involved, that I have ventured to propose it to the House. Sir, I cannot but believe that this very competition will really increase the marine of the country. Look at the way in which it has prospered in proportion as restriction has been removed and freedom esta blished. I recollect what was said when Mr. Huh,- kisson introduced his celebrated measure in the year 1826, by which he so greatly threw open the trade of this country to foreign competition. I remember the prognostics which were uttered of the ruin it would bring on the British maritime interest. I beg to re mind the House of what really has been the result of that legislation. In the year 1824 the tonnage of the United Kingdom—the registered tonnage—amounted to 2,348,000 tons, and the colonial to 211,000 tons, making a total or 2,559,000 tons. In the year 1847 the tonnage of the United Kingdom was 3,307,000 tons, and the colonial was 644,000, making a total of 3,952,000 tons, and being an increase of 1,393,000 tons. Now, Sir I think these figures prove there may be an ebb and a flow of prosperity, but taking the two periods of 1824 and 1847, and lookir.g at the immense increase of tonnage at the end of that period, I think it clearly proves that the relaxation then made by Mr. Huskisson has not been pro luctive of that injury which so many persons believed would flow to the navigation and commerce of this country. And, Sir, if I turn from the general commerce of the country to that part of it which has specially been open to the competition of other countries, and compare it with that part of our commerce which has been spe cially protected, I find nothing in the comparison of the effects of the two systems to discourage me from pro ceeding onwards in the course of commercial liberality. Sir, I hold in my hand a return the contents of which were comeaunicAted to the Committee of the navigation laws last year. I mean the statement of the tonnage of British ships which entered the ports of the United Kingdom, and also of fbreign ships each year from 1824 to 1846, distinguishing the tonnage employed in trade to foreign countries and British possessions, and that employed in protected and unprotected trade. Now, I know that a great deal has been said about this return not being a fair return.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford (Mr. Har ries) cheers that statement, and therefore he does not c insider this a fair return. Now, this much lam prepared to admit to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the terms used as the heading of this return are not strictly applicable. The word " unprotected" does not strictly describe the return. It should be less protected instead of unprotected. But this I must say in justification of the officer of the Board of Trade who drew up this return, that it was the distinction made before the Committee in the navigation-laws by one of the gentlemen who, I believe, fought most steadily the battle of protection there, Mr. G. F. Young. He de scribed one class of vessels in that trade as protect' d, arid the other as engaged in the unprotected trade. Therefore I do not think that any blame is to be at tached to the gentleman who drew up the return. But the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite will at least admit to me that there is a broad distinction between these two classes of trade. One of them is strictly and closely protected, and the other is less protected, and in which we are exposed to competition with those countries with which we are trading. Now, Sir, the result of this . . return is this, that the protected trade was, in 1824, of British vessels, 893,000 tons in round numbers. In the year 1846 the tonnage was 1,735,000, being an increase of 184 per cent. Then in the less protected trade, as I will call it, being the more correct expression—the less protected trade amounted in the year 1824 to 904,000 tons, and in 1846 to 2,558,000 tons. I know the Right Hon. Gentleman will say that that includes the rapid voyages of steamers; but that will apply to both sides of the return equally. There is no difference in that respect. In reference to this return, I will call time attention of the House to the comparative effect upon British and foreign ships en gaged in this less protected trade. This is a statement taken from the British and foreign ships entered from foreign countries against each year, from 1824:to 1846, with the per centage of increase in each year. The ton nage of British ships iu 1824 which entered the United Kingdom from foreign countries was 904,000 tons. In 1846 the tonnage amounted to 2,558,000. Of foreign s hips, in 1824, the tonnage was 758,060; and in 1846 it was 1,883,000. The i T n h e thisi ner l e e a s s s e, p t r h o e t r e e e l t o e r d e , tr o a f d ß e, rit h is a h s shipping n amounted to 1,654,000 tons, or 182 per cent. in round numbers; and the foreign increase 1,044.000 tons, or 137 per cent. That shows, therefore, that the shipping in the less protected trade has increased more than that in those trades which are strictly monopolies, anti showing, likewise, that in this comparatively unpro tected state of the British shipping there has actually been a greater increase than in the foreign shipping. Sir, I have stated my reasons for believing that British commerce and British shipowners will not be injured by the alteration of the law that I have proposed. Sir, I have no apprehension either that the British ship. builder will be injured by this alteration. When I ecnsider the great national advantages of this counttry with regard to our manufacture of ships—when I con sider its capital, its abundant supply of iron, of cordage, and of paint--and that supply of timber, which I be lieve gives a greater choice to the British shipbuilder tl 'anin any oth er pl ace i n the world he can have at i e s - "n l34 nd—Sir, I cannot believe that there is b lv e i i t i h eie th e a w n i y il real disadvantage to the shipbuilder, or that he er by being brought into competition shipbuildera of foreign countries. I corn • Sir, that it is a great mistake in cora raring the cost of ships built in different parts of the world, to look in thei• constr i4 erely at the amount of money expended quality lf the s h u ' -. We should also consid e r the belief i5...1 area Ps there built, and their durability. My fence ant durabil tails on th • lb SUbjoet..._b ' ved tiat, takin n it w_ ys i llincr to weary the house with de- Pro h - ut nty belief is that it can be strutted it any part J time to btild ships full' British ships, we are able at this of cheap construction, ship, considering the excel long since hay. bean lions of 4iip building de jp th f: e :u al world. Sir, if the competi. to those which are con. the British builder would merely on the circum stancedriven away from the market, not by foreigners, but by that competition to which he is now exposed, without any protection whatever—l mean the competition of our own colonists. The cheapest ships in the world are those which are built in our own British North American colonies. For some purposes they are extremely useful, and, for the same purposes, it is a great advantage to the shipowner to have access to those ships. It might b e suppose d t h at t hi s wou l d te ll I against the ship-building of England ; but it is not so ; for while the colonial ship-building has greatly increased, the trade in ship-building on the English coast has enormously increased also. My belief is, that, in addition to choice of timber and materials, we have also the best and cheapest labour in the world. If we repeal the restrictions of the naviga tion-laws, all foreign materials necessary for the con struction of ships will be brought to England far cheaper than they now are, and in that also the shipowner will derive a considerable advantage. Upon the whole, I am satisfied, that when the House shall come to examine that part of the subject, it will see that it is a matter of justice to the British shipowner to remove those protec tions, to allow him access to foreign-built ships if he so thinks fit, and that by doing so it will run no risk whatever of destroying that valuable and important branch of trade in the hands of our own countrymen. On the contrary, my belief is, that the sort of stimulus thus given to British ship-building will be of the most salutary kind. I can discover no reason why we should lag in this particular behind any foreign country in the world. If in some particulars the United States of America appear to excel us in the construction of ships, I am sure it can only be owing to the monopoly which has hitherto existed ; if you remove that, you will give a salutary stimulus to the interests of British trade, and I do not see any reason we should not sustain ourselves under the competition of foreigners. It seems to me that those who maintain that ships cannot be built as cheaply in this country as in any other part of the world, ought also to maintain that we cannot make any other article of manufacture as cheaply. I cannot conceive any argument of that kind which will not apply, in an infinitely stronger degree, . to other great articles of manufacture- I now come to an objec tion which I know has the greatest weight in the minds of many men, and if I believed myself in its truth and validity I confess I should think that all the arguments I have adduced in favour of those changes ought to go for nothing; I mean, that it would be destructive to the military, marine, and naval greatness of this country. That opinion has the sanction of some great names, and among others, of Adam Smith, who says, that " as defence is better than commerce, so the navigation-laws, though in his view injurious to commerce, are wise and salutary." I will not now enter into the inquiry, whether in the days of Adam Smith that distinction existed; though I must express a different opinion with modesty and doubt, my own belief is, that that opinion is one of the few errors to be found in him. But whatever may have been the case in his time, I believe that argument will not apply now. The question is, will the removal of the restrictions of the navigation-laws increase or diminish your maritime commerce?—(Hear, hear.) I do not agree with those who contend tent you can separate maritime commerce from naval power. I do not believe that a great naval power can sa'ely be maintained on any other basis than that of a large commercial marine ; and if I thought the measure I mean to propose to the House were calculated to fritter away and annihilate the commercial marine of this country, I should be prepared to admit they would be almost destructive to the naval greatness of this country. But it is enough for me to show that the mea sure, so far from diminishing the commercial marine of the country, will in reality increase and enlarge and if that be the case we need never fear to have ships of war sufficient for the defence of this country.—(Hear.) Mr. Huskisson stated the true doctrine on this sub ject when he said that the only true and durable oundation of a large commercial marine was to be found in the means of affording them beneficial employment. I have stated that I believe no danger is to be appre hended from this measure to our commercial greatness; I wish I could say that I saw no danger to be appre• hended from any other source ; but in my opinion the true peril to our commercial greatness is that of raising up the jealousies of rivals against us. I am afraid that there are real dangers of this kind, and I must leave it to the House to apply any remedies their wisdom may devise for them. I hope their attention has been directed to a very remarkable correspondence which has been for some time laid on the table, consisting of letters from our consuls abroad in reply to a circular sent to them from the Foreign-office. I think no gentleman can have perused those documents without feelings of deep regret at the evils p-evailing in our commercial marine. Our mercantile navy suffers exceedingly in its competition with those of other countries—not from the want of any protection or restriction from the State, but, I regret to say, from evils inherent in itself, which no amount of protection can cure, but which, on the contrary, I believe the indirect effect of the removal of protection will go a great way to remove. What do we find described by almost every consul who writes from different quarters of the globe ? They state that, whilst the character of the British seaman for what is technically called handling ships remains as high as ever, still unfortunately, owing to the low character of our shipmasters, their want of skill, and I am sorry to say in many cases their defective morality, which produces a very relaxed state of discipline on board of their ships, our vessels are fast lossng their share in the commerce of the world.—(Loud ironical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Protectionists.) I make that assertion ad visedly; it is much better to look these evils in the face than to attempt to disguise them from ourselves. Mer chants, therefore, in too many instances, prefer to en trust their cargoes to American, Bremen, or Swedish, rather than to British ships, on account of the injurious effect of the circumstances I have pointed out. It is my firm conviction that these evils have grown up very much in consequence of the system of protection, which leads the British shipowner not to exert himself to im prove the character of his ship; and I believe that the effect of removing protection will be to secure improve reent.—(llear, hoar.) There are other measures con nected with the merchant navy which I think ought to receive the attention of the House, two of which I propose to introduce in the course of the present ses sion one affecting the question of light dues, the other for the regulation of the merchant sea men's fund. There are also others which I hoped to be able to introduce in the present session, but which, though withdrawn for the time, I hope Parlia ment will deal with, and that in a manner advantageous to the commerce of the country. I refer to the pilotage question, and to any means which we may be enabled to employ for ensuring a better and more competent in struction of British shipmasters. A measure of this kind would be amongst the most useful which could be devised by Parliament for the improvement of our mer chant navy.—(Hear, hear.) It is perhaps not surprising that some apprehension should be felt by the class whom it more particularly affects, with respect to the change I propose; but I believe such apprehensions to he ground less. My conviction is, that in the continuance of pro tection they will find their ruin. —(Hear.) Protection and monopoly will avail them nothing in remedying the evils to which I have adverted; they will only narrow and confine the general commerce of this country. The navi gation of this country must depend on its commerce; and to suppose that anything which in the long run cripples and narrows the commerce and manufactures of this country can be favourable to its navigation, is, I believe, an idle vision. This, and every other class of the com munity, will find their true interest in the long run in being allowed to compete on equal terms with other countries of the world, instead of being encumbered with a system of protection which does them no good, but is deeply injurious to the general interests of the country. —(lean) I have now done—l have gone through, I am afraid, very imperfectly, this great subject—{hear, hear)—and I beg humbly and respectfully to recommend e e n t t o . th l e n d e e l l i i e b y e e ra t t n e a a t, nd if im th p ey ar a ti r a e l country at large, and to no interest of this country mo re ca then o consideration s i : 13 f e h ff aP s yti c er t imi w aa i I be greatly beneficial to this n beneficial than that, which I value as much as any man can d—ol mean the commercial prosperity and ofmanufae ltiuerviengogisreaaittnereasstion will p the rßrit ish odce, m instead ire. o ( f i jealous lear.) rival riesl be and the irritation of foreign nations—instead of uep— crippled trade andeontractedmanufactures,freedom,good will, prosperity, and peace. I believe we shall be placing the prosperity of England upon the best and noblest foundation, if we can connect it, as in my opinion we can and shall do by this measure, with the general in terest, the extending trade, the continued peace, advance ment, and prosperity of the whole civilized world. — (Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by proposing a resolution, "That it is expedient to remove the restrictions which prevent the 'carriage by sea be tween the United Kingdom and British possessions abroad of goods in foreign vessels, subject only to such control as her Majesty's Government may deem neces sary, and that it is expedient to amend the laws relating to the registration of ships and seamen." Mr. ELLIOT asked whether the measure would affect that provision of the navigation-laws requiring four men to be carried for every 100 tons? Mr. LABOUCHERE said his Hon. Friend had fallen into a very common error in believing that to be the law, but it was not so. He believed the law to be that, provided au English ship maintained the proportion of three-fourths English seamen and one fourth foreign, it might carry any proportion of men to the tonnage the owners pleased. It was only when they had more than one-fourth of the seamen on board fo reigners that the other provision was applicable. Prac tically, the restriction did not come into play, because ships never carried more than one-fourth of the crew foreigners. In answer to Mr. FORSTER, HnNuIr.LABOUCHERE setota ketnthe p preliminary to s i a n id he would askleave arysteps,whteh wouldof ethno able him to bring in measures relative to the light dues and merchant -seamen's fund ; but he had not mixed them up in his statement. In answer to Mr. HUME, Mr. LABOUCHERE said that Ceylon would be treated exactly as any other British colony. Mr. GL ADSTONE f e l t that on a measure of so Right tniu,g,cuhhl tdpostponeHonourableimportance any a Gentleman's e nt discussion h tl e e mpresent untilan before it w r thern e theyhad , a t n h d e time was allowed for cons id er i ng i t. He rose, therefore, only to put one or two ques ti ons on parts of the Right 'Hon. Gentleman's statem en t as to w hi ch he was in some doubt. He und e r s t oo d th e Ri g h t Honourable Gentleman to say ;hat for th e same reasons which made it expedient to conti nue th e ex i st i ng restrictions on the coasting trade, he thought it e x p e di ent to continue the restrictions on the fisheries. He did not k now whether the ri g ht H on our a ble Gentl eman h a d i n view e was s better they the exclusive Rights of fishing on certain banks and within certain limits enjoyed by British vessels, or the restraints imposed by our commercial laws on the im portation of fish in foreign vessels. By the Customs Act of 1845 it was - enacted that all fish of foreign taking shall not be imported unless in vessels which shall have been cleared out regularly with such fish on board from some foreign port, thus preventing foreign vessels from coming di rect from the fisheries with fish on board to a British port. He did not distinctly gather whether it was in tended to continue that restriction, or whether foreign ships would be permitted under the law to come directly with their cargoes from the fisheries to a Briiish port. This was a question of great importance, not only with respect to the supply of. the Briti s h ma rkets with fish, but also to the trade in whale oil, which was carried on to so large an extent by American ves sels. It was material they should know whether those vessels would be allowed to come from the South Seas, for instance, with their oil, or whether it must first be carried to an American port. He also wished to know Vl hether the Right Honourable Gentleman meant to propose to Parliament any mea sures relative to the education of young persons for a seafaring life, and the examination of masters and mates to ascertain their fitness. He could have wished, also, to have heard some statement as to the effect of the measure enacted a few years ago for the voluntary exa mination of masters and mates, so as also to know whether Government had determined to give any further extension to the system. The subject of naval education appeared to him to be one of such g reat importance , that he would be g l a d if i t s h ould be found possible to afford aid from the public funds towards the establish• went of schools in the seaports. He wished to knew also whether the Right Honourable Gentleman was in a condition to give them any further information with re gard to the views and intentions of foreign powers, other than those to whom he bad alluded—Prussia and the United States, for instance: whether there were reasons to suppose that the views of two such maritime powers as Sweden and Denmark would be likely to coincide with the general provisions of the measure now announced. Mr. LABOUCFIERE would endeavour to answer the Right Hon. Gentleman's questions. First, with respect to the fisheries, he apprehended if the House were to assent to the measur e i t was his duty to propose, it would be in the power o f a f ore i gn vessel engaged in the deep sea fishery to bri ng t h e produce of that fishery di rect to this country. Th e a l terat i on propose d would go to that extent ; but with regard to the coast a nd bank fisheries, it was not p ro p ose d to a b andon t he ancient privileges of this country. O ur own d eep se e fisheries would have a better chance of competing with foreigners, if allowed to send home their produce in any vessel, whether native or foreign. With respect to the inten• tions of foreign powers, other than Prussia and the United States, Ministers ; had not thought it expe dient to make any overtures or to enter into any com• munications with foreign states, until they knew the views of the House of Commons. He felt the great importance of the other subjects to which the Right Honourable Gentleman adverted--11111131 education and the examination of shipmasters. A system of voluntary examination had been in operation for some time, which had been adopted to a considerable extent by ship owners, who had availed themselves of this channel. He was disposed to give it a further trial before attempt. ing to substitute any compulsory system, which might be open to objection. With respect to the subject of schools for the instruction of seafaring persons, he should be glad if it were to engage the attention of the House. He had felt, in the ministerial arrangements of the Executive Government, the want of some department whose special business it should be to consider, protect, and promote the interests of the mercantile marine. I There was no professional maritime assistant at the ' Board of T ee th e and he had always felt the inconve assist- ance. ce oHfedsehcioduilndgtohnerseufochre propose, in the course of thequestions without such assist ' present session, to constitute a department of the Board ' of Trade, to be called the department of the mercantile marine, consisting of unpaid officers, which would be superintended by one of the Lords of the Admiralty, thus affording to the Government, without any increase lof expense, the means of considering such questions with more advantage than they now could. Mr. G. ROBINSON (who spoke amidst great confu sion from Members leaving the House) was understood to say that nothing could remove from his mind the im pression that the great interests of the country were most seriously menaced by the measures now proposed. The time at which they were brought forward was most inopportune ; why not defer them until the evidence taken before the other House had been published? lie saw much in the labours of the Committee to confirm the views he entertained, namely, that it would be pre judicial to the interests of the country to alter the navi gation.laws. He would not offer any factious opposition to the measure, but he thought he might predict that it would considerably add to the difficulties of the Go vernment. He saw no reason for pressing the measure in the present session. With respect to the representa tions of the colonies for a repeal of these laws, the only inference that could be drawn from them was, that those colonies having been ruined by the free-trade policy, now wished to indemnify themselves at the expense of the shipping interest. He could only say that they would be disappointed in those expectations. He denied that the consumers would derive any benefit from the re peal of the navigation-laws. The difference in the amount of freight in British vessels and foreign vessels was so small that it could . not benefit the home consumer. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that all the great authorities were in favour of a repeal of these laws. Ile denied that ; for even Mr. Huskisson himself, the first great commercial reformer, advocated that measure only to the extent of the reciprocity system. The effect of this measure would be to give a stimulus to the naval power , of foreign countries. Th e H on . G ent l eman t h en rea d an I extract from the address of the President of the United States, which represented the marine of that country as progressing at such a rate, that if it continued to go on in the same way they would soon be the first maritime country in the world. There was no doubt that the United States was the most formidable power that this country ever met with on the sea. Besides, a great re volution bad taken place in a neighbouring country, the effect of which would be to draw closer the ties of sym pathy which existed already between France and Ame rica. Was this a time, then, for them to do anything which would injure the naval power of the country ? He believed that this country would come out of a contest with those countries victorious ; but Parliament ought to be cautious before they committed an act which would lessen her power.—(Hear.) The itight Honourable Gentleman said that protection was no longer necessary for this country. He (Mr. Robinson) believed that protection was necessary to give employment to the working classes, and if the contrary principle was adopted, the ruin of this country would be the result. He did not agree in all the views of Mr. Huskisson with respect to commerce and the navigation laws, but that great man never proposed any measure that was calculated to injure the country. On one occasion Mr. Huskisson said that when the interests of commerce and navigation could not be reconciled, the latter should be preferred to the former. The Right lion. Gentleman alluded to the letter of Mr. Bancroft. Now, it was a maxim of the executive of the United States never to relax in carrying any point which it thought would be beneficial to that country, and Mr. Bancroft, having an American object in view, chose the present time, with great tact, to write the letter which had been read. Although it might appear very liberal on the part of the United States to offer to reciprocate with them, he would recommend to the House net to be led away by that circumstance, because the fact was, that the United States had no advan tages to offer to this country if she repealed the navigation-laws, whereas the United States had very great advantages to obtain from their repeal.—(Hear.) The advantage would, in fact, be all on one side. lie confessed he did not see the advantage of keeping any colonies at all, if their trade was to be given up to foreigners. They would not be able to give employment to the people of the country if they gave up protection. They would he surrounded with a labour question which they would find very difficult of solution. Chartism was put down, but the cause which gave birth to it still existed, and would be aggravated if they passed this measure. He was ready to support any measures for extending commerce, provided they did not trench on the fundamental principle of the navigation - laws. Mr. HUME said he agreed with the lion. Gentleman that the great question the country would be called on to solve was the labour question; sod one of the reasons which induced him to support the repeal of the naviga tion-laws was, that it would unfetter commerce, and thereby open a field of employment to the working mart. He did not think much of the exceptions made by the Go vernment—and perhaps they acted wisely in leaving the coasting trade untouched. It would, at all events, diminish the alarm of the shipping interests. He saw last compete with those of other countries, provided they r e n p d r )r u c e d no reason why the shipping interests of this country could country laboured under disadvantages which, he thought, met them on equal terms. The shipping interest marine f aTtri t hic h nea e est insuranceough ought to removed. high, For a instance, t a o t r u o g o h and ho believed that (Hear, hear.) The restrictious b. _ be to leave that point H e str , respectingh enapr ought also to be done away wit the effect of this measure would see why the principle entirely voluntary. He could would be a very great advan a ta ld g not st able to manage their that people themselves were be ted with res ect to own affairs should not be adop , F. the well a s with regard to all others. shipping interest as of the American captains, that appeared, from the evidence . . ~__..,__ their navigation -laws injurious to that they considered d the free action of English them, because they cripple much advantage would vessels. He thought that the light dues. No less be derived from a reduction of f l' ht h or ig 90,000/. than 400,0001. was now levied flear, hear.) He was would answer the purpose. — interest itesif would have satisfied that the shipping; of competition was thrown reason to rejoice that the of the raw material of their open. The introduction a great advantage to the manufactures duty free wastmeasure was the fitting accom panimentcountry, and the present de policy of late years. The of their free-trade site complained that only Hon. and Gallant Captain W° before the Committee. one naval officer was examinedt was so; but the officer who He did not know why that was seemed to be was examined (Sir James acquainted with the subject, and he (Mr. thoroughly heardbetter evidence in his life than was that h© sh.oounldof givethi this Hume) never i ttbsoe rbaet e s .. gentleman.—(ilear, hear.) As to mans given ht it was a mistake to suppose given by that ning the navy he thought if it increased the carrying trade of the the contrary, that we should have , a much greater country, it was clear on in time of war than we that this measure would have an injurious effect. On number of seamen to rely up . Majesty's Government would take the hope that her . 'ty of stating what they intended to do earliest opportunity and other questions, he concluded could have at the present time. After expressing a with the lighthouse by declaringthis measure his cordial support. Lord G. B . - ENTINCK could . not thank the Govern mentmeasure; for the introduction an,,, lie must say that in all his experience be had never heard so great a change proposed Iton grounds so that the country was un tenable and so feebly petitioning for the change; that the people were groiging under any grievance . b y re,. . „ son of the present laws; That rates were too high, or that freights were too scarce. The only reason assigned for this measure was that Prussia, forsooth, was inter fering with our trade. Prussia was the country of which the Right Hon. Baronet below him some time since declared that she " was coming round " —(A laugh)—that she was about to adopt our free trade system, and to adopt to the full all that the advo cates of that system had proposed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them a story about a ship which had gone to the Canary Islands for cochineal , and o n which frei g h ts amounting to 6d. a lb. had been charged. Why, 6d. a lb. was about 561. a ton, and would any one believe that at half such a rate as that plenty of suitable ships could not have been found ready in British ports to go to the Canary Islands for a freight? Why, even " the marines," for whom the Right Honourable Gen tleman evidently intended that story, could scarcely be expected to believe it.—(Laughter.) Then the Right Honourable Gentleman had referred to the characters of our mercantile marine, and had talked of their im moral and other vicious practices. He was not there to say that among twenty thousand men brought up to an arduous profession there might not be found many of immoral and vicious character ; but let them ask the in surance offices what they thought of the character of our seamen, and th e y woul d tell them that they insured British ships cheaper than any others, because of the brave conduct of our sailors. Then as to accidents at sea: why all th e returns before them proved that a far larger proportion of American vessels were wrecked and stranded than those of vessels belonging to ports in England. B u t t h en the state of our navy was referred to, and Sir James Stirling's opinions were quoted. Si r J . S t i rling ' s practice, however, was op posed commanded, the greater proportion of the men had never been in the navy at all. The Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempt e d to te ll them how e it n u woul d be proposed to man the navy if t h e security w done away with. It was remarkable now possessed was er that no a m h emb x of the Government h a d ventured yet to say h pected to result fr om t h e operation of thesew measures. tee The lion. Gentlem an oppos i te said it would be a most sed beneficial measure to th e B r i t i s h trade. How increased competition would b ene fi t t h at trade he (Lord Ge Bentinck) could not se e; b ut he could see thaotrgiet would be a measure for the benefit of Prussian shipping, and for the great advantage of the com merce of the United States. If the Government knew nothing of the advantage it would confer on that country, at least the United States' Minister knew it, for to-night he bad attended most carefully to the debate. A return had been Cited of the ships em ployed and the revenue derived from the protected and unprotected trade of Great Britain. How was that re turn made out? Our trade with China was included as an unprotected trade? as if we wanted protection against junks and bamboo bottoms. Our trade with Mexico was also cited, though Mexico had no marine of her own. If they had looked, however, at other branches of our general trade, they would have found that the theory of this return was scarcely borne out. Take the British West India trade, which was one of the least protected of all branches of our trade , an d th ey would find there constant decline and consta n t disa pp ointment. The returns, in fact, were calculated and meant to de - ceive.—(Hear, hear.) And now let him ask what did the Government expect would be the diminution of the cost of freights under this new system? In_ a newspaper article written by one of the members of the Government, they were told that 2-I. 6d. a ton was to be the saving derived by the consumers of this country. The question, therefore , came to t his. Was the House, before they saw something more of the working of this free-trade system, prepared to make a sacrifice of at leust a million a year, at present paid to British shipowners ?—(Hear, hear.) During a very recent period her Majesty's Government and the Times newspaper raised great alarms about the probable rate of freights in bringing over corn; and the navigation laws had, in consequence, been suspended. But it had now been proved that that measure was unnecessary; and not seeing that any substantial reason had been given for continuing to act upon its principle, he should certainly give the present measure all the opposition possible. He had only one word further to say, and that related to the effect of this measure in our colonies. It was his belief that our colonial trade would, if it passed, be thrown entirely into the heeds of the Americans. He predicted the most disastrous consequences to the em pire from this circumstance. Mr. J. L. RICARDO could hardly reconcile some of the statements made by the Noble Lord. What he had said with regard to the great proportion in the loss of American vessels over English ones, could be easily accounted for. The time to which his Lordship referred was one of great pressure, and when it was found ne cessary to send a large number of vessels upon the service. With regard to what had been said by the Noble Lord respecting the advantages which an open trade would give to the United States, he begged entirely to disagree. He did not anticipate that any such effect would take place. It was a fact, that where as the United States' ships were the dearest built and manned of any in the world, by the - arrangement which this country now had with them they monopo lised two-thirds of the trade ; and that whereas Prussia, having her ships built and manned more cheaply than any other country, was obliged to give us the whole trade between that country and this. The Noble Lord had stated that the Government had brought forward the measure on feeble grounds, and that the merchants and manufacturers of the country had no grievance to complain of. He (Mr. Ricardo) confessed that when he considered that the Noble Lord himself had begun by pointing out one grievance that he was ready to give up, he (.4r. Ricardo) could not understand how the Noble Lord could maintain the non existence of grounds of complaint. The Noble Lord having given up the point respecting the Lascars, how stood the case? Last year there was a great scarcity of raw ma terial and manufactures, and idleness, and consequently distress, ensued. At that very time there was great commercial distress in this country; failures were taking place on every side, and, amongst others, an old-esta blished house in Newcastle failed, as they stated in the circuler issued to their creditors, entirely on account of the state of the East India trade. Ho wished to point out the fact to them , that while such was the state of affairs in England—while the operatives in the manufacturing districts were starving for want of raw material—while merchants were becoming bankrupt to support the monopoly of ship owners—those very Lascars were manning the vessels of this country to support that very monopoly. He would maintain that if those ships which were ready to bring those commodities, which would have saved the opera tives of this country from starvation and her merchants from bankruptcy, instead of being built of Indian wood and manned by Indian men, had been built in the United States and manned by Americans, the injustice would have been equally great, the oppression equally tyrannical. The evil consisted not in the trade which was injured, but in the trade which was entirely stopped by the restrictions of which he complained. He would take the case of Australia. There were in this country hundreds and thousands of people unemployed, and anxious to go anywhere where they could find employ ment; there were in Australia thousands of acres un cultivated from want of people to •ultivate; but there was in 'this country a navigation-law which would not allow them to go there. It was stated to the Com mittee upon that subject that there was a great deal of emigration taking place to Australia. The between deck fare to that place by the Bremen ships was ra ther below 121., and the charge from this countr y varied between 201. a n d 251 .; and, moreover, it wa. stated that if there was any preference to be given to the vessels of either side in point of accommodation, that the difference was in favour of the Bremen ships. After such a contrast as h e h a d s h own, he asked ere was there the justification for preseving such a law? It was a great grievance for a merchant to know that his in petitor in G ermany was enabled to purchase cheaper than himself; w hil e, when he met him in the market with the manufactured article, he was compelled it on eq ua l terms. But the magnitude of the mischief was even greater than it appeared; it was not found out until some change of circumstances forced it upon p ublic attention. Th ere was a b eaten track, and whenever it was tried to escape from it then the naviention-laws were heard of. He would take the case of Java. As soon as that House had opened the trade, some of our merchants sent out their English manufactures; the ships were obliged to go away and bring back other cargoes, being compelled to trust to some other ship to bring ba c k th e i r cargoes from the island. It happened that there were severa l s hi ps, but no British ships, at the place, so th a t t h e cargo could not be brought back ; and the merchants, finding the inconve nience thus entailed on them, abandoned the trade altogether. Such was the case with copper ore. They were obliged to have a particular ship to bring it, or they could not bring it at all. A measure had been passed in that House to let in copper ore free of duty. Now he knew the case of a merchant who had a large ainoant of that ore at Java which ho desired to bring to this country, but in consequence of the law he found that in order to do so he would be obliged to send it back to Chili in the first place. He considered the restriction to involve an unjustifiable sacrifice which, unless some great and sufficient reason was shown for its continuance, was altogether inexcusable. The object which they had in view was expressed in the title of the Bill," An Act for the encouragement of the commercial marine, with a view to manning the Royal Navy." Surely after 200 years of encouragement the navy of this country must be a model to the navies of other nations.--(Rear, bear.) There was a document that had been laid on the table, which was a report from official gentlemen appointed by successive Administrations, of particular political bi as , an d h ating no object-- ix eiew but to give i n f ormat i on to the Foreign-office, It was written from all p ar t s o f t h e world, without Y any possible means of comm un i cat i on on the part of theare spective gentlemen; but, nevertheless, there could not be a more unanimous opinion th an was contained in document—that the two hundred years of encouragement to the commercial marine h a d resulted in its infinite superiority over other nations. The Noble Lord would forgive him if he said that he would rather trust to the gentlemen who had drawn up the report than to the Noble Lord himself for a true opinion on the matter. No man recognised more fully tha n h e t h e importance of . keeping up the defensive resources of the country, and if the manner of the defensive navy depended on the commercial marine, the sooner its constitution was altered the betters for it leant on a broken reed. Al though these laws might be hallowed by time, yet they ought to examine and investigate them, instead of taking their beauties on trust, or they might be reduced to the condition of the frogs in the table to whom Jupiter sent a king, whom they regarded for some time with much admiration on account of the splash he made in the water, but whom on inspection at last th ey found to be a mere log.—(Hear.) Mr. HENLEY opposed the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentleman. The Hon. Member who spoke last had got up a case of abuse against merchant s eamen ' in general, and ha ha d rested his ca s e mainly o n Is blue. 1341 i, in 'which, at all events, there was a considerable - number of contradictory statements. He would no more think of estimating the character of an entire people by the language applied by the magistrates of a country to the thieves brought before them, than he would of form. ing his opinion of the character and habits of seamen from evidence contained in a blue-book.--(Hear, hear.) What, he would ask, was the rate of insurance at Lloyd's for these ships, manned, according to the Honourable Gentleman, with such dissolute crews and such ignorant captains ? Why he found that merchants could get their goods insured in these ships for' less than they could in foreign ones.—(Hear, hear.)'' Those Gentlemia i who cried down the merchant service would do ,s!ell to: hear in mind the source from which the British navy' was then manned.—(Hear, hear.) That navy beat' everything it encountered, and it was manned principally from the merchant service.—(Hear, hear.) And he had a firm confidence that if war were to commence again, in spite of the unjust imputations lavished on these men by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, these men would again do their duty equally well to their Queen and country. (Cheers.) - - - Mr. MITCHELL cited some cases of the unfair work ing of the present law, and the injury done to the trading interests by it. These special cases of injury, however, were necessarily few in number, because these laws had existed for more than 200 years, and few per sons indeed would think of bringing over goods to this country in opposition to the course prescribed by them. There was one statement made by the Hon. Member for Oxford, which he could contradict—that goods on foreign vessels were insured at a cheaper rate than if on English bottoms. Now, his conviction was that Eng lish, on the whole, were better than foreign ships. He was satisfied that the first class English vessels. sunh as those engaged in the East India and China trade, might be ensured at lower terms than any foreign ships. The reason was obvious ; for not only were the ships better,' but their captains were educated men, well qualified to guard the interests of the owner, and to protect the pro perty of the merchants whose freights were entrusted to their care. It happened that in other vessels the captains were principally men brought from before the mast, and who, though well able to manage a ship at sea in a storm, were wholly incompetent to conduct business, or to set an example to their crews when on shore. He should be glad to see in the merchant service of this country the system adopted which was practised in the nor thern states of Europe, where no man was admitted to the command, or even as mate, on board a merchant ship until he had passed an examination, not merely in of but in the knowledge of languages, the :rules vi ° s l i l te o d f a t ) i exchanges, and in most of the branches of the educe the gentleman . manifest with by captains of merchant ships must be struck differencenehwhose counting-house was lish and those of the h se of the Eng lish those _ foreign mercantile service. He had himself found that in 200 charter parties which came one to which thee course of a ear, there was scarcely legible. From signature of en English captain was and his propertythesejeopardised . causes the shipowner was injured the navigation lailvsopaanrddised. It had been said that if abolished, th ere would the apprenti ces hip s y s t e m were Royal navy in Case of be n o means o f mann i ng th e contended that the ittro :7var. Now he (Mr. Mitchell) present system, for such difficulty would arise under the that there was a surplu was the number fi o apprenticos were driven into the s_ae of able-bodied seamen, who that surplus be brought back kriican service. How could whole, if he could think thlslitall case of war e On two sustain the slightest injury from threitish shipping would posed in the navigation-laws, he should be now pro adopting those changes ; but he was be very chary in good management would arise from the convinced that tition which these changes would create t p of comp ee ' would be got rid of, and activity and dispatch bad habit s would be inculcated. Captain HARRIS remarked that he had heard no thing in the course o f this discussion to in duce him to withdraw the notice he ha d g iven before the Speaker left the chair, of his intention to move, when the Chairman reported progress, that the Committee should not sit again until the report of the Lords' Committee was laid before the House. He did not wish to interfere unne cessarily, but he must say a word or two in relation to the question of the commercial marine being the nursery for the service of the royal navy, and therefore for the maintenance of the national defences. On this subj,ct —though many naval officers had volunteered to give their evidence—only one, Sir James Stirling, had been examined before the Select Committee appointed at the instance of the Hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. L. Ricardo). lie should be glad to have an explanation of that circumstance, because he took exception to many parts of Sir James Stirling's evidence. That Gallant Officer,for whom he entertained the highest respect, had stated that of the seamen in the royal navy not more than one-tenth had been brought up in the merchant ser vice. This was negatived by returt.s made by the registrar of seamen, which he (Captain Harris) held in his hand ; and which showed a totally different state of facts, not only with regard to the ship Sir James Stir ling himself commanded at the time he gave his evi dence, but with reference to the crews of the Howe, the Leander, and the Amphitrite, all of which had been put into commission within the last year. If a state ment made by Sir J. Stirling were true, namely, that out of 20,000 men in the royal navy, only 1,000 were brought up in the commercial service, there would be at once an end of the whole question, as far as the navi gation laws were concerned. The only observation he had to make on that statement was, that it was utterly incredible, and could not by possibility be well founded. His own personal experience led him to form a directly opposite conclusion, for recently, on a visit to Spithead, he had found no smaller a proportion than two to one of the seamen on board the Mona ch and other ships lying there who had been brought up in the merchant service. —(Hear.) He entreated lion. Members, before voting on these resolutions, to wait for the report of the Lords ' Committee on the navigation laws. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would adjourn the further consideration of his resolution till that Commit tee had reported. Mr. LA BOUCHERE said he could not consent to this course, which would be altogether unworthy of this House. If any Hon. Gentleman dissented from the reso lution, he could express that dissent in the usual way. He now proposed to adjourn the further consideration of the resolution till Monday next: A message had been sent to the other House, requesting that when the evi dence of their Committee was reported, it might be com municated to this House. Mr. HUDSON wished a postponement for a fortnight, on account of the great importance of the subject. Look ing at the business before the House, the Health of Towns Bill and other measures, it was probable that this would not oecasion greater delay. Only two petitions had been as yet presented in favour of any change in the navigation laws. LABOUCHERE—I presented four myself. Mr. HUDSON read from a return which stated that up to the 10th of May only two such petitions had been presented. The Right Honourable Gentle• man had strongly abused the mercantile navy of the country. This reminded him of the celebrated instrac .. tions to a learned counsel—" No case, but please to abuse the plaintiff's attorney."—(Loud laughter.) He knew, notwithstanding the Right Hon. Gentleman's abuse, that the mercantile navy lived in the esteem and affections of the people of this country.—(hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman had admitted that British built ships were the best, and that British sailors were the best sailors ; but this was a question which did not depend on the quality of our ships or the excellence of our sailors. Ile had, therefore, read with great regret the disparagement of our shipping by some of the con suls ; perhaps the reason might be that they were largely interested in foreign shipping. He was confident that the borough he represented, one of the, largest ports in the kingdom, would strongly deprecate this measure. The Right lion. Gentleman had said that ship-building might be carried on without protection as well as other manufactures, but he seemed to have forgotten that the cotton and other manufactures were protected by a duty on foreign products. When the free•trade measures were proposed, two years ago, they were held out as the greatest blessings that could be devised; he should beglad to know what benefits had been derived from them. The further free-trade proposal now made would entail utter ruin on the shipping trade; and though it mi l ht be true that the best article was the cheapest in the long run, it was not every one who could afford to buy the best article; and the probability was that ship-building would almost entirely leave this country. He earnestly hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would defer this reso lution for at least a fortnight, which would scarcely be sufficient time for the House to dispose of the ponderous Health of Towns Bill. Mr. LABOUCHERE had no wish to press the matter unduly; but as this was only a resolution on which a Bill was to be founded, he thought it not unreasonable to ask the House to resume its consideration this day week—anxious, as he was, that the Bill should become law in the present session.—(llear, hear.) As to the mercantile marine, he had passed no sweeping censure upon it. Admitting the skill, courage, and able sea manship of the men, he had stated, on the authority of unquestionable returns, that the shipmasters were defi cient in the requisite qualifications; and in making this statement he thou 4 ht himself a much better friend to the mercantile marine than env one who would withdraw attention from the tact.—(Hear, hear.) In the China and ludia, and other trades, he believed the qualifica tions of the masters were most unexceptionable; but in other trades, their deficiency in skill, and the conse quent want of discipline, were producing deplorable consequences, which could not too soon be brought under the notice of the House.--(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUDSON said if the attacks made by thesbee safe. Dr. were listened to, no man's character Dr. BO WRING moved that the Chairmwarali re port progress, and ask leave to sit a gain. ry incon be a ve_, should Lord INGESTRE said this w ould . venient course. Let the House other House; Committee of the h w ait for the reanit of the inquiry before the that would be much less derogatory' to d. t h i e .. i h r e d i l i g a n v i i t g y at t io a n n . to hurry on a discussion of this kind' Commonwealth, and laws dated from the time o f of withoutbe gidvueen,daelnidbersahtoliumld. ought not to be got rid He demanded that time should divide the House if the Governm ent would not con sen t to postpone the matter fora Chairman fortnight. do report p rogress Th e motion that th e and ask leave to sit again was agreed to without a divi sion, and the House then resumed. Captain HARRIS t hen moved that th e d e b ate be postponed until that day fortnight. The Marquis of Granby supported the amendment, as did Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. \Yawn, and Mr. W. Miles. Mr. LABOUCHERE felt bound to oppose the amend ment, for he could nut consent to any course calculated to prevent the measure from passing Into a law, if such were the pleasure of the House, during the present session. Mr. HUDSON asked why, if the Government were so earnest to pass the measure this session, they had not introduced it at an earli er per i od ? A ed 3 Mr. HENLEY called upon those who were opp ose d to the measure to impede its progress by a ll t h e means which the forms of the House admitted. Colonel SIBTIIORP said, that the conduct of the Government in this case was only another example of the principle acted upon by all Governments—of fore- ing on their measures by every sort of miserable chicanery. The House then divided, when the tppeared— For Captain Harris's motieO tr . 2B d IT7 Against it Majerft - —34 Colonel SIBTHORP then_ in — oved:lre adjournment — . of the debate. The House then divided, when there appeared— , For the motion Against Majority ."---37 Lord G. BENTINCK was surprised that the Govern ment persisted in pressing forward so important a quiet; Lion as the present without allowing ample time to-the country to express its opinion with regard to it. If the Noble Lord at the head of the Government were in the House, he was sure he would consent to the adjourn ment. Mr. LABOUCHERE consented to the adjournment of the debate till Thursday next, when his Noble Friend at the head of the Government, who had the disposition of the public business, would state what course he would pursue. The debate was then adjourned. ,7"" • LIGHT DUES AND MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND BILL. On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE, resolutions were agreed to for the purpose of enabling Government • to bring in Bills on these subjects: _ . - • PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. Lord MORPETH moved the re-committal of this Bill pro forma. Colonel SIBTHORP thought that when the Bill was printed time ought to be given to consider it. He should wish to know whether the number of persons who were to receive salaries had been deduced. Mr. DITErr and Mr. HUDSON expressed Oys !lArise wish. . r Lord MORPETH saidithat the number of those who were to receive salaries was very much cut don. He now proposed that they should proceed with the Bilk on Thursday, and go on with it till nine o'clocitkartiii evening. The SPEIiER - then left the chair, and the Bill—was - committed pro forma, the amendments inserted, the Bill ordered to be reprinted and to be recommitted on. Thursday next. The House adjourned at a Quarter to rw0.141.1 -t-rf.:rt; COURT CIRCULAR. Aubrut The baptism of the infant daughter of the Duke Xtid Duchess of Sutherland took place yesterday morning, in the private chapel of Buckingham Palace, in the presence ,f the Queen and Prince Albert, the Lady Caroline Somers Cocks and the Hon. Matilda Paget (the Maids of Honour in Waiting), the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland, the Duke and Duchess of Bedford, the Duke and Duchess of Argyll, Lady Rivers, Lady Dover, and Viscount Morpeth. The Hon. and Rev. Charles Leslie Courtenay, h er Majesty's domestic chaplain, officiated at the ceremony. The sponsors were the Queen, Lady Rivers, and the Duke of Bedford. The Queen named the infant " Alexandrine." - Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, the Princess Royal, and the Princess Alice, took airings yes terday in the pleasure grounds of Buckingham Palace. ' Their Royal Highnesses Prince Alfred, the Princess Helena, and the Princess Louisa, accompanied by the Dowager Lady Lyttelton, were taken an airing yesterday dinner, and n in an open carriage and four. PalaceYer Majesty and Prince Albert left Buckingham (Lady in Waiting), Lord Byron D at eight o'clock yesterday evening, to honour the royal their suite consisted f S Stafford o Countessr d House , f S c t. he J r zchess of Sutherland with their company at Colonel the lion. Charles The a l e m m e o s n ' a t . the Queen), and Ca p tain Waiting to Prince Albert). (Equerry in Waitin Viscount Clifden (Lord in . Grey (Equerry in Waiting t• t the Hon. Alexander Gordon (Lord in Waiting), Highness the DucheslofoliPerin and Duchess of SutherlandPri nce Albert). Her Royal t also honoured the Duke Highness was attended by with her company at dinner last evening. Her Roy al Lady Augusta Bruce an Colonel Sir George Coupee. ye A st i e r r . d P ay o . wer T , k 9 l l e .P E . ,:r l l ia o d f an interviews rview s with Si had also an i nterview yesterday with the Right H on . B aronet, at th r e G H . G o m r e . y . office. The Bishop of St. David's, the Bishop of St. Asaph, and Sir Thomas Phillips, had an interview with the Lord Lord President of the Council, on Friday, respecting education in the Principality of Wales. The Right Rev. Dr. Davis had an interview with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Colonial•office. Her Rod al Highness the Duchess Bernhard of Sara Weimar, visited her Reyal Highness the Duchess of Kent yesterday, at her residence. Clarence House, St. James's. The Hon. Edward Curzon had an interview widi Earl Granville yesterday. at the office of the Board of Trade. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. TATTERSALL'S.-YESTERDAY. The Derby betting, quoted in our last, excited no little astonishment, Surplice and Nil Desperandum, who had previously been respectively at 13 and 18 to I, figuring 5 and 6 to 1, and at the head of the list of favourites. They were till the rage yesterday, the Danebury nag advancing to 11 to 2, and Surplice—after a large outlay at lo to 3 and 3to I—to sto 2. With regard to the hatter, we were publicly requested by Lord (3/lichen to make it known that, "as he stud to win a large stake by one—oehis horses (evidently meanin g Loac/stone), and nothing by the other, he should entirely consult his own convenience as to which he should start, or which he should oeclare to win with." This announcement had no influence on the betting. Surplice remaining in immense force to the close. The rise of these new favourites almost paralysed the market, and made it so difficult to get at the prices of the other favourites, that we cannot pledge ourselves for the perfect accuracy of our quota tions; we believe, however, that they are very near the mark:— SOMERSETSHIRE STAKES. 7 to 4 apt Mr. Chamberlayne's Silver Eel—taken Saddle and Duplicity were declared not to start at a, quarter-past three o'clock, and Bellenden at four o'clock. DERBY. 5 to 2 agst Lord Clifden's Surplice 11 to 2 agst Mr. J. B. Day's Nil Desperandum—tkn 9 to 1 agst Mr. Bowes's Springy Jack-12 to 1 laid once 12 to ragst Lord Clifden's Loadstont 12 to 1 agst Mr. Payne's Glendower—taken 13 to 1 agst Mr. B. Green's Swiss Boy 20 to 1 agst Mr. B. Green's SI lock 22 to 1 agst L Ord Eglinton's Eagle's Plume 22 to 1 agst Duke of Rutland's The Fiddler 25 to 1 agst Mr. T. Parr's Sponge—taken 25 to 1 agst Mr. J. Scott's The Stinger 25 to 1 agst Mr. Pedley's Besborough—taken 33 to 1 agst I.lr. Lillie's Great Western—taken ~000 even between Eagle's Plume and The Fiddler 6 to 1 agst Mr. Dixon's Do-it-again—taken 9 to 1 apt Mr. Foljambe's Queen of the May 9 to 1 agst Baron Rothschild's Sister to Satirist 10 to 1 agst Mr. Pedley's Cymba 13 to 1 agst Colonel Peel's lodine 14 to 1 agst Sir J. Hawley's Vexation—taken Thursday next is comparing day for the Derby and Oaks. APPREHENSION of the SWANSEA MURDERERS.SATURDAY.—The e ANSEA, the p resent which has Sw prevailed in this district during th x greatly increased on Thursday last aveh. w cl e e ek b was observed to enter the taiiinv guarded ' by a I coupl e ein o g policemen with drawn swords. It was soon a sne ri ascer tained me that the occupants were the murderers. The prisoner Thomas Martin was apprebendiCd under very remark able circumstances. The police, whilst scouting the country, had their attention directed to a wood by as extraordinary number of crows hovering round one of the trees, at the same time they were making an unusual noise,. The officers imagined that probably some on• was concealed in the tree, and - on going-, to_ ascertain whether such was the case or not they found the man concealed in a bush near the tree. From the state of his clothes it was quite apparent that he had been wash ing them, to remove the marks of blood. Patrick Leary, Michael Leary., William Norris, and John Norris were all apprehended in the neighbourhood of Cambridge. Patrick Leary, on being identified by a man the police took along with them, said " I suppose you want me; I am willing to go. I am willing to suffer for what I have done." The prisoners, upon being searched at the police station, were found to have marks of blood upon their clothing. They have all been placed in custody, where they will remain until the Coroner's inquest is brought to a close. Tue NEw HoLTHEAD STEAM-FACKET LLIWILLYN Holyhead steam-packets, th e four th of the —The b u ilt of iron, vessel and engines by Messrs. m l i e ll w e e r, down the r iver on S aturday last, at th e measured nautical mil e. She ran the first mil e , w i t h t h e tide, i n 3 minutes 2 2 seconds, giving the rat e o f 17.822 knots, or nearly 20 1 statute miles ; she p er f orme d t h e secon d mile, against the tide, i n 4 m i n. 30 se c., or at Llewellyn,, a the rate of 13.333 knots, or 15i s t atute m i les; she made venshill and Co., o f Blackwell, was tr i e d the third run with tide, in 3 min. 25 sec., or at the rate of 17.561 knots, or more than 19i statute miles; and the fourth run, against tide, in 4 min. 22 sec., or 13.74 knots, or 15i statute miles. The average speed of the tour runs, therefore, was 15.614 knots, or 19 1.12 th statute miles an hour. It should be stated that the iron bottom of the Llewellyn was very foul, the vessel not having been docked since she was launched. This circumstance was of course a drawback on her performances. She has since been taken into dock, and her bottom has been cleaned, and on Monday she will proceed down the river on another trial, when the above excellent results, it is expected, will be ex ceeded.— United Service Gazette. - - [ADVERTISEMENT.] A Severely Bruised and Wounded Leg Cured by Holloway's Ointment and Pills. —Mr. Hugh M'Neil, of Kincardine, a shipwright, when working on a vessel, struck his leg a most violent blow, which inflicted a severe bruise and wound. The limb immediately turned black from the ankle to the hip; all applications to it for weeks had no power to heal the wound. The sufferer having beard so much in praise of Holloway's Ointment and Pills, determined on trying them, and fortunately he did, for by their use alone his leg was cured, and he was able in a month to resume his work. Sold by all Drogists, and at Professor Iloilo -1 Way's establishment, 244, Strand, London, D 91115