The Sun. — London, England, 1852-05-25 00:00:00

`L, poor-htire Board did " Sras simple to issue to those Parishe s ru l es and regulations for i the relief of the poor, reserving at the same time that power over the local , officers which was necessary to their very ladPl ),, n' deuce, bat n ot venturing to break throush the c nstitsi tio n established under those local nets. It th:. , Pour-law Board Wgis to exempt places under keel Acts from these I ra sad regulation s , un d er w h a t p re t ence c o u ld th a t Beard ba maintained at all for the supervision of the boardsof guardians? ' F or th e reas o ns h e h e d sta ted h e R ai the House would not a s sent to the m ode:, of the no obl ' e Lord, seei ng th at t h e N o bl e L or d h a d ma d e out Sir G. PECHELL said the night Honouree:: fel on J. Trollop e ) h a d a tt emp t e d t o th row d ou bts r the statements of the Noble Lord, and had read f d'om certain disconterred persons, whom he Called the parish," and then he said the' parishes in :I,l,2e!tlorewere demanded to be relieved o:n the control vestry. B u t. th e Ri g h t H on . G era l ema n heti 1 ,1 e0 ,9 to show anything like discontent amen,;amen,;the in- ,taitania of 'those pari s h es w i t h th e ex i s ting mode of G over nment. - The conduct pursued gas Gentleman in reference to this tenestian wan monstrous. plied by the ,Right The Right Hon. Gentlemen had re madee)the Noble Lard just as if the Noble Lord hied poses. b the motion before the House for party .ur could be more unfair then that, for the Noble Lord, r 6 Ll' George Pechell) and those with whom they acted, had been for a length of time pressing upon d tro'rerninents to give boards of guardians that control .' over their expenditure which tey ought to leiye o ; a d ae contended that from 1837 to h March, 1852, wit ohe esee P t ion, no motion had been made in that House in regard to the management of the poor under local Ac ts, With a view merely to embarrass the Government fo r t he I th ial e e k s 3 ; e te ie n t warned the Right Hon. Baronet that if lion of loeslof interference with towns un der the o p er a . Acts was continued, it would cause such an amount of remonstrance, that sooner or latter redress would b ainevitable. It was within his own knowledge that in the parish of Alverstoke, although it had been Show n by the Poor-law Inspectors themselves that it Was exceedi ng l y we ll ma naged, the Poor-law Board had inflicted on that parish such rules and regulations that it required a lawyer and a special pleader to understand the m. • Having called the attention of the House to the various reports on the subject, he trusted that the motion of the Noble Lord would be successful, and he would Only propose to add to it such words as would exemt from the operation of the Commissioners those parishes Which were incorporated by the 22d Geo. 111., c. 33. He trusted that, at least, ho should receive such an amount lof support from Hon. Members ns would induce the llght Hon. th e Ch ance ll or of the Exchequer to stay the ands of the Poor-law Commissioners with respect to these incorporated parishes. Mr. BAINES said that, as he believed the amendment of_ the Noble L or d t h e M em b er for Marylebone to be h stalitially that the House should now declare that henceforth the jurisdiction of the Poor-last Commis• li eeers Should not extend to any parish which was un der the management of a board of guardians formed ga te a local Act, he should feel it his duty to oppose tion. There could be no doubt whatever but that general Poor-law Amendment Act the Legisla e intended that the powers of the Poor-law Commis lifters should extend to parishes governed by local It These powers consisted in the general regulation Management of .workhouses, and in the appointment boar! s nid officers for the better relief of the poor, the i d at the same time possessing the power of direct ag the tenure by whichsuch officers should hold their ee P nee G w-oe, and upon every occasion upon which the Hill had been before Parliament these .-w W s had been preserved to the Commissioners. il s -r e ' ear, hear.) In order to preserve uniformity in e arattosment of workhouses, as well as for the se untY oft he officers, it was absolutely necessary that sae nothing powers should exist. But at the same time there in these powers which could be considered e !nosed to the boards of guardians; on the contrary, ;lieEttibad considered during the whole of the time that he held office,' that his denies were rather to co-ope rate with than to controul the boards of guardians. In m!loy instances, however, he had felted that the corn- Plaints of the poor-law officers had originated in mere the y feuds, or in an attempt to reduce the salaries of officers below the amount which he thought requisite al. Order to secure efficiency. He believed that he had oh several occasions prevented by his interference many Worthy men from losing their situations in consequence of these attempts on the pert of boards of guardians: Miring the time be had held office, he had never inter fered in parishes under local acts, unless at the desire of the guardians themselves, or in cases where he had them to helieve, upon clear and satisfactory evidence, that there were abuses in the management of the Pariah, to which it was his duty to apply such re bted„,, y as the law afforded him the mea ns o f doing. 'tile Member for Brighton threw out against hi m what e deemed a personal imputation. He read to the d ouse e4 a list of places with which, he said, the- [l ouse - h ad not interfered so as to abolish their local control, and he laid special stress on the word "Hull." Now 'what were the facts? He had not been two years in ernac When he was informed that the administratien of the poor-law was essentially defective in Hull; that two deaths had taken place there owing to the want of pro ler precaution. Notwithstanding the representations ;which were made and urged upon him, ho declared his Intention of putting in force the consolidated workhouse Zeal and pe rsevere d i n that i ntent i on — an d w h a t was th c onsequence? Why, th a t a ll parties now agreed at it was the best thing which could have happened for them. —(Hear, hear.) If his administration had nut been honest, h e h a d no cla i m to recommend him,— (Cheers.) The second ground on which he rested his TPp e o sition to the mot i on o f his Noble Friend was th i s. Were re were in En g l an d 375 parishes, whose affairs regulated by directors, under local Acts. the !threat majo r ity o f t h ese parishes had been long and gn at oa cg ago under th e regulation of the Poor law adrd. A very small number still regulated their own affairs. In a great many cases this had been done upon the petition of the guardians themselves. In other oases Parliament had interfered because grave abuses ere brought under the notice of the Poor-law Board. What oti would be the effect then of adopting this resolu , Z ak "That it be an instruction to the Committee . to 44(litit_e roor-law Commission any parish, th Provision for exempting from the jurisdiction of the management 4 04 7 r the poor whereof is regulated by a board of directors efe te, vr guardians, under a local Act or local Acts of Parlia -101,, !lent?" It would be not only to protect parishes from f uture interf erence; but it would be to undo all that has stl: been done, and throw up on t h ese par i s h es th e so l e admi eeollllistration of the -• poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) Another insintreas on why it was impossible he could support this pro olque Position was this: —If these parishes governed by local I Vl,,,:Acts were to b e exempted, he should be glad to k now on d 4 4, 'What grounds Parliament could maintain a jurisdiction sly. : over other boards of guardians? The highest noblemen ca, 1 0 the land acted as chairmen in the sittings of the boards bs'ea of guardians. The Duke of Richmond, the Right Hon. t 'k.a.te l ,‘"2°ntleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies, us 4 4 „ . 7ell as a host of' other distinguished persons, took part !fa the administration of the law in their respective dis - lt lets, and if they did not find it a humiliation to put in force the' consolidated rules, he did n ot se e how the gentlemen of St. Pancras or Marylebone could e omplain.—(Hear, hear,) nee, Captain PECHELL assured the Right Hon. Gentle man that he did not mean any imputation whatever, and if he laid stress upon the word Hull, it was merely to attract his attention, he being Member for that town. He, on the contrary, had endeavoured to pay him the highest compliment, and his regret was that he had not •, remained longer in office. tai t. Mr. L& SLETT thank e d the Noble Lord far having "'gat the subject under the notice of the House. lie had , some experience of the working of the poor law, and he considered that some amendment in the law was ' necessary. Mr. J. A. SMITE' believed that the poor-law had effected great improvements; but at the same time he must express considerable regret at the manner in which •-• the motion of th e Noble Lord the Member for Meryle bona had been received. It appeared to him that the public had a right to understand on what principhs this ` interference complained of took pl ane. In the case of Chichester,the which he represented, , anor-iaw Board interfered; he did not object, nor w as the conduct pf the Board complained plained of. The guardia ns of Chichester had any complaints what . carried on their bu_sinea i r st ith th o s u in t • As this was so, he . Waver being urged aga wanted to principle interference had k a parishes were ; • . did not know o to know why, w h en Place; He Chichester should have been excluded. bore testimony to the abilityadministrationerha4heifi • still exempt , Mr. HUME Win& d the and fairness hichtherenev s, the Right Hon. Gen which cthleawraocnt,eorifsew 'th any complaint. W 1 regard to the parish of Maryle affairs were not in that %t ate he bone, he admitted their ese, could wish them to be; abuseshad crept in, and a b uses correct. With regard to St. Pan eras, Ile understood the took a long time to phor. law board had interfered • ' the g servants. A majority own with the employment of theirltoof the b oar d of uardiansf the parish had come c onclusion that one of the pu bli c servants employed 13 Y -them w as unworthyto b o lding o ffice 9 and he was dis f in London had nli ssed; the general board sitting awe, his re.iosti.. inter fered and applied for a mandamu s _ to co e tut ion; that was. be considered, co ntrary to common ;rte discontent and alarm o and ealcalated to excite the 'L use --e w e ° t h er efore, eghout the coun try. He hoped , d to, and that w ould be agreed the „, ow. this instruction to clause, ex ld introduce a d Alght lion. Gentleman Would of the boar • "'Pang these parishes from the powers Majority of the ratepayers required it of Alver j Sir -TRorzoPE. said neither in tee case ch. ' l ever see '• cone of le ,of St. pelmets of Marylebone, or been e. had the by him; they had • orders been signed " R; eu j ) Yhis predecessor in office. the P — ` l. D. HALLremindedthe House that when oe -er-sa w B ill was last to be renewed t h e greatest por e li on of the Hon. Members who now sat upon the G r of y e e e r maeot benches not only spoke but voted in favou . ' 'n lll.° P4sition that the board should cease and deters Se believed it was the present Judge-Advocate who • Moved that the Bill be read a second time that day three Months. He, therefore, had hoped that this amendment r. WOUld not have been opposed. The board of guardians o f the. St. Pancras union desired to dismiss one of their officers. The general board said they might pay their Officers, but they should not dismiss them without first obtaining their consent; and the board now petitioned • • the House to be excluded from the operation of the ge • • 11 ,.."%1 poor-law. The Strand Union was au in s t an ce o f Government control not having prevented the mu-,t hor rible and disgusting occurrences which could take place eller public establishment. With regard to Maryle ?St .bone, the body was stamped us apolitical body by the act of one of the Members of the Government. It was in this way—there was no returning officer in Maryle 7 bone; the returning officer was the churchwarden; there s „ k Were two chu rc h war d ens; one was eotede by the vestry, the oth er b y .h e Crown. Lor d Portman aura;' tied Lord • Kenyon, and continued in the offioe und-r several Admi nistrations; but the moment the Noble Lord, the pre sent Commissioner of Works, found there was a vacancy, which occurred annually, that moment Lard Portman was summarily &sulissed; no cetninniiiestioo r i a 3 "`P = t to him; Lard Portman was in the eetintry, ait , rt -on his return he found a notice on his had be , r. supers , .ded by the Government; there i;rii ate one word of expl.uistion, and the political partisan of the Gov,re moot in the parish was itvtittited in his stetrd. The parishes complained that they wore not allowed to ma• nage their own affairs, and that msudatnuces were ap plied fur to th,-m. fie thoul:bt, uo,ler the cir cumstances, that the motion of his Noble Friend was a very fair one, and he hoPed he - would press it to a di vision.—(Hear.) Mr. JACOB BELL %indicated the conduct of the parish of Marylebone at some length,. end contended that the aspersions which had been cast upon them had been undwserved. Mr. HENLEY said that thelionse had nothing to do with the management, good or •bad; ot the Marylebone vestry. Tee only quution before Howe was rhethrr the authority of toe Poor law Board oug h t to I . m) oc . l o s s c h t a o l t u: l l l e d e i t b: r e . e p u o i a 2 i no tended to parishes having should, reason why therefore, the e x u te P Lord. and he CX`or t. Mr. WAKLEY raw no relson wley a continuance Act should be new lucrodeeed, ivasenteet as the Poor-law Board would not expire till next year. What, was wanted was a poor-hew court, with a poor-law judge, where applications from different parishes could. be heard and decided in pnblie, and then in a short time you would have a code of laws for your guidance. He trusted that the Government when relinquish this Bill. Mr. W. wiLuAgs hoped that the Right Honour able Baronet oppesito would 'consent to withdraw all in tHerofu'e:n:vtoulwd sift parishes and their etlairs, or that the Stuart). P ii °l.t • the motion of the Noble Lor d (Lord Dudl e y Lord EI3IIINGTON would suggest to the Right Hon. Baronet that he should look very carefully in., the state of the metropolitan workhouses,. in some of which there had been of late a very alarming amount of mor tality. He (Lord Ehrington) would give his support to the Bill. The Marquis of GRANBY was quite tired of hearing the uncontradicted statements of Hon. Members respect ing the universal employment of the lo wer orders.—(oh, oh, and Hear, hoar.) The Hon. Member for Finsbury said that there was less pressure in the workhouses in consequence of the increased employment, but could the same be said of some parts of Ireland, where they were told the assistance of the soldiery was required to main tain order? The Honourable Member fur Montrose had told them the other evening that there were ,thousands of unemployed persons- in Scotland who ought to be sent to Australia, and to-morrow night there -was to be a ball in London in aid of those who were out of em ployment in this city.. With these facts before him, he confessed that he was tired of hearing it asserted that -there were no persons out of employ . ment.--(l.le'ar.) Lord R. GROSVENOR was ono of those who had voted fur tho original Bill. He. should be sorry that all central power should now be withdrawn,. for be thought that the poor would suffer by it.. It.appeared,there was a doubt with regard to the law. This might bean instrur ment of very great torture to the rate payers.. Therefore ho would vote that an amendment should be made. Sir DE LACY EVANS offered a few observations in favour of his amendment-, which, however, could not be moved. He said that to leave the nomination of the officers in the vestry, and the removal of them not in the vestry, would be to take from the vestry all its aetho city together. If subordinate officers in the army could say to their superior that his orders were not It gsl, and that their legality must be shown before they Were com plied with, they eoul ! not.get on. And this Was not all for it the arguments which he opposed were good, the whole of the vestries should be put au end to, god com plete centralization established.. At any rate, it was quite c! , •ar that the two systems could not go together. Lord DUDLEY STUART explained that ho did not mean anything beyond making those parishes which nad local Acts independent of the Poor-law Board. The House thut dtvided, when the numbers were-- ... 112 Mej d'ity ... —79 The House then resolved itself, into a Committee, Mr BERNAL in the chair, Ayes ... Nkns ... On clause 1 being propeed, Lord DUDLEY STUART moved that the blank be fill,d up with the worth °•- fitty-tiaree" instead of fifty four," his übject tieing to limit the duration of the Bill to one year. Mr. SOTHERON thought it Trould be much better to extend the time to . five years, the period for which the original Bill : . was passed, and gave notice of his intention to move : the insertion of words to that effect. After a few words from Mr. Bouverie, Mr. Abel Smith, and Sir J. Trollope, The Committee divided on the proposition that the blank be tilled up with the words " fifty-four." Fur the amendment ... 26 Against it ... ... 72 Mejority for " fifty-four" ... —46 On our return to the gallery, Mr. J. A. SMITH complained of certain new regula tions which had beeu thrust upon the Chichester board of guardians since the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite came into office. Sir JOHN TROLLOPE explained that these regula tions, though sent out by him, had been prepared by his predecessor. • The Bill then went through Committee. Sir BENJAMIN HAUL wished to ask the Hon. Metot:er for Wiltshire whether he intended to take any other opportunity of moving that the Poor-law Bill he continued for five years? Mr. SOI'HERUN took that opportunity of giving nc tice that, on the report being brought up, he would move that the 1301 be continued for five years. Sir BENJ AMIN HALL said he would give such a proposition all the oppo.ition in his power, and hoped the matter would be brought on at a period of the evening when it could be lull discussed. Mr. WALTER also would oppose that proposition. If the Bill was to be continued from time to time the oftener it was brought under revision the better. Tee House then resumed; the report to be brought up on Thursday. The Turnpike Trusts Arrangements Bill passed through Committee The Differential Dues Bill was read a third time and passed. On the question that the Passengers' Act Amendment Bill be farther considered, Mr. CARDWELL reminded the Right Hon. Colonial Secretary that his Hon. Friend the Member for South Lancashire and himself had a clause to bring forward relating to the passenger-fee levied on emigrant vessels. He did not complain of the lateness of the hour (it was now a quarter past one o'cluck), but the debate would occupy some time; however, if tne Right Hon. Gentle mau widied to go on he (Mr. Cardwell) was ready. • Sir JOHN PATEN CT rON thought the debate might 'go on; he did not think it would occupy much time. Mr. WILLIAM BieOWN hoped the consideration of the Bill would be postponed. He expected great.sym pathy from Hon. Members opposite, as his clause would to some extent relieve the shipping interest, but the House was very thin at present, and most of theMensbers he referred to were absent. The Bill was then postponed to Thursday next. The Committee on the Grand Juries (Metropolitan Districts) Bill, was postponed to Friday next, after some remarks from Mr. Stuart Wortley, objecting that the 8.11 wout too far, and suggesting that it would be batter to retain the power of summoning grand juries with limited powers. rho Eeelesiestical Courts (Criminal Jurisdiction) Bill passed through Committee. Tee Inland Revenue Office Bill, the Hereditary Casual Revenues in the Colonies Bill, the Excise Summary Pro ceedings Bill, and the Bishopric of Quebec Bill were severally read a second time and ordered to be com mittpd. The Masters' Act Extension Bill was committed Iwo forma in order to be re-committed on Friday next. The Nisi Prins Officers (Deficiency of Fees, &c.) Bill passed thraieh Committee. • Mr. STAFFORD moved for, and obtained leaVe to bring in a Bill to amend the Act 11 Geo. IV., c. 20. Mr. G. A. HAMILTON . moved for, and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to alter Lind amend ciettain Acts relating to the Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues of the Crown. The. House then adjourned at 20 minutes before Two o'clock. • • _ . HOUSE OF LORDS, /gay 24. Woo' The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat ou the : . sack at Five o'clock. ' - MR. COBBETT'S CASE. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Mr. aesso Ohiti e ld , compla i n i t . g o f the present s t a te of tb . law 'fill regard to actions • i.rought in form Po,up,ef.i.F and writs, of habeas corpus, an d a P re ying for ' some alteration in the • law. Mr. Oldfiarl'stated that he had been a party to the ori guir;ale'Webelbletktnown proceedin va.in. consequence pbisOno:cgteitc.eoutnbe, moved or e a iisal9nB had been committed l ' to the Queen's Bench prison, and that since that time—tho commencement of of - which tdhf9. broughti a) at t it ab l4 sgtye b hav e et: v ninp e se . I c o 0 0 b b y veitt.s and o f ha be as be vasta s corpusnumbly hadof r t gesc h ti i e m iollat b at y ,i,m M e r. ti C le o r b a b iv et e t r , e al e l e i w n forma peed by Mr. Cobbett. also brought against him tt e t t e d r (A e l seiw p w ß o ß rd L s L fr in om ev t ed lte fora ORrDeteC! of ANtCbe number of of writs of banes:; corp us movtd for by Mr. Cobbett since the Ist October', 1839. Tho return -was agr v ee E i T to rr . lONS.. The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented a petition from builders and others in the. metrupoliS, praying for holds, the TT e lf • r 'L e . ll ; e is m h?p to o f f ei C iP A Y CANTERBURY presented a ooth ' , Alt. • • f Lord COLCHESTER, the Stook ta :I.ljodu,,f,,lttinateiiiiiet.-50olutack the fill d • n)t the ni.ya g Z'rile: rl d:ththirirdd b t r ii i im il m g P i l aa i n : d u d p 2P'' ;;; : r . e : P f the same NOBLE LORD die Highway petooitnniottnhhoeegin: t ): : ion o Trtraa•edse BBiill: vi's "" f l ' i- the ort on the On the million , . re Bill, rsuT s d ta ta t itef.iii 'st tot u b ' ni t3 o ci ur ov h .r d ni ' ma : oe on emt e , tiorivv:ioni asst, Lt theyoY N t l ht e ) P h i d d the r „ dress of it :Leanod mittee. He would app r the "'°' Id to CaUurmosm.i.lithitkjt:this BllrietwiatB_o4 w T- • ) i r e a th i er ° , P i P n 's l i a t et, had ' it facilitate its progress. In fret,.,_ , i ! the N b . l „ vt,hbeeythila. had not e dov. .N ii, ae o s b a 1 1 i ts And Li- arntd - Lord on the 1, , 0 It tlie h d y i3 ' co g u ob l e n es d eu. would. long — ago hay., Da:ihvd thYsi eat 'Ito:iv:coo - s e o Thi• Bill itsi,;.lf was o4.lcWnled to In ci) W it number of the public, and would do away with u gr'''''.7 , d e d the techeicalities which at present very much nut''' ' e due administradon of justi ce . Th e Noble and La rned . _.,.. h Lord proceeded to quot e a num b er o f i ns tances 112 WU"' the evids j•W;Fee bm,n defeated by the court bay iPg pushed the technicali..ies of Oho law 0 a raost absurd CRAICWORTH concurrod in the extreme itll• poNao.c9, ofte nutnsure.•,•. • rarrort thea c.nd the "Bin. vas d,r.cd to be reed a third time on Thursday mat. Pl - I()PERTY-TAX CONTINUANCE BILL. The Earl of DERBY, in moving the second reading of the abevo Bill, spoke as follows:—My Lords, although it has been suggested by a Noble Friend of mine that it would he desirable to read the Property Tax Continuance Bill merely pro forma, with a view of postponing the discussion upon it in going into Committee, I think under the peculiar circumstances in which we are placed es regards public base. rie , s auth a course would be attended with inconvenience to Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House, as well as to Seale on the Ministerial side It is important that thie 13JI should receive the loyal assent with as little delay as. posse:: ble. I therefore submit to your Lordships the propositiPe - that von will now read a second time the Bill, for the Contin uance of the property and income-tax for one year longer. In bringing this subject before your Lordships it will not of course be expected that I should go into ally details as to the state of the revenue and expenditure of the country, or as to the particular reasons which have induced the Government to propose the re , ewal of this tax. Your Lord ships must be well aware that at the commencement of the present session, upon the change of the Goverument, there was a general understanding on the part of this as we ll as the other House of Parliament that with the exception of Such measures as were not likely to lead to serious differences of opinion, no business was to be brought forw rd by her Majesty's Ministers. Her Majesty's Government have even declared that in the present session of Parliament it was not their intention to introduce ally measure that would be . likely to involve any seriolis conflict of opinions, and more especially in regard to questions affecting the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) There was, my Lords, more than this understanding-there was a distinct _declaration that no incasure materially affecting the commercial or fiscal condi tion of the country would be introduced into Parliament this session. The question, then, for the consideration of her Majesty's Government, was not whether any alteration . could be made in the fiscal or commercial policy of the country, or whether they could make such alter tions in the revenue and expenditure of the country as might enable them to dispense with a tax of this character, the objections to which be should .be the last man to undervalue.—(llear, hear.) But, my. Lords, the question was, whether any alteration of the tax itself, whether by any new arrangement of the system under which it was levied, it would be possible for us to dispense with either the whole or any portion of it. Now, I think a single word will satisfy your Lordships, that, even if it had been desired- wholly to. dispense-with this tax, which was levied originally for -a temporary purpose, and which I still hope may be looked upon as temporary, but •is merely continued from year to year to meet the pressing necessity of the case— I think your Lordships will agree with me, that unless we feel ourselves in a position for making some general or final arrangement in respect to the whole . system of taxation, it would be inexpedient to continue the whole or any • portion of the tax, at least for the present.—(Hear, hear.) But practically speak log we had no alternative, placed before us; for though there is a surplus of income over the expenditure of last year —yet as an important alteration in the taxation of the country had taken place, the effect of which did not come . into full operation until the present year—it was difficult to . say what the result of such alteration would be upon the revenue of the country. If the income tax bad been alto gether taken off in the course of this year, we may reason ably calculate .that at the close of the financial year, ittetead of this surplus, there would be a deficiency of income to the amount of 2,500,0( 1 01. And by the loss of the remaining half of the income tax that would fall upon the following year, thetesult of , our not renewing it wouldbe this—that in the year of 1853 we would And ourselves in a .deficiency to the amount of about 5,000,0001.—(Hear.) The statement which my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exche quer submitted to the House of tommons a few.evenings ago went to show that the result of obtaining-the whole tax, supposing that no alteration had been made he the receipts, would be, on the best calculations, to give ato surplus of 450,00 e/• upon the r evenue of this y ear. This ,is a sur p lus which I think is not mor e than - is absolutely necessary meet the probable, exigencies of the State, and the call that may be made on us for increased expenditure.. Nor is it more than is necessary for us to keep as a balance in hand fir the maintenance of public business:—(Hear, hear.) Under these circum-tances, feeling . ourselves bound by the stipulation which we have entered into—not to introduce, in the present.seelion, any material alteration into our financial or fiscal regeilations—and I will-also. fairly admit, not having the opportunity of considering or of proposing to Parliament tiny matured plan'for the: arrangement of our fiscal afleirs, though we should even consider such to b® ultimately expe dient—her Majesty's Government feel that they have no al ternative, while desirous to retain a surplus revenue, and having a due regard to the maintenance e of public faith and public security — they , I say , feel that they have no alternative than to make that proposition which I pow sub mit to your Lordships, namely, tcecontinue without alteration or amendment the existing property •tax for another year, in order to afford us -in the interval the fullest opportunity of considering whether it will be prac ticable to make any alteration in the financial system of the country, and to dispense with the whole or any portion of this tax —(dear, hear.) At the same time I should be de ceiving your Lordships --I should not, I think, be acting a frank or honest part if I were to hold out any very sanguine expectations that this would be the last occasioe.upon which -I should deem it necessary to subenitto this 1:10us3 a propo sition for the renewal of the tax, , While . 1 . say this, my Lords, I cannot but admit the strength •of the arguments that are urged for,the removal or modification. of the tax, because I think, not only that it is one which oughtnot to be resor ted to except for the purposes of war, and should not be , looked upon as part of the ordinary resources of the country, but also because, from, the best considerations that I have been able to give it, and from the considerations given to it by successive Committees of the other House of. Parliament, I believe the difficulties are almost insuperable which stand in the way of diminishing its injustice and inequality. (Hear.) With that impression, I should be.glad if the present state of the revenue, or looking forward for, a year or two, I should, I say, be happy if the revenue were in such a state as would enable me to hold out expectations of the reduction or the abolition of this tax. But I think the course which the Government is taking, of proposing to continue it for the pre sent year, is that which affords to Parliament the fairest and best opportunity of considering the practicability in a future session of Parliament of its entire abolition or reduction ; and I, for one, am willing to rest the proposition for the cone tinuance of the tax for another year simply upon the ones. tion of necessity, for the purpose of maintaining the public credit.—(Hear, hear.) If it can be shown in any future session that the credit of the country can be maintained, and that our finances can be upheld with due consideration for the expenditure of the country,.l shall be the first to rejoice at the abolition of the tax. And if it should fall to the lot of the Government of which I am a member to submit to Par liament a proposition for the repeal, or even for the reduc tion of a tax which in its operation I believe to be not only unpopular, but justly so, no One will be more rejoiced at• having such a duty to discharge. Under the circumstances then ems which we stand —with the under standing that we have a prospect at no distant . peried that the policy of this tax. will be:duly considered, as well as our commercial and financial policy generally,. I trust that your Lordships will.not only. give y our tareconsen t the second reading, but in the position in hich e now placed, you will be also of opinion that the continuance of this tax for a single year is the only course it is possible for her Majesty's Government under the circumstances to take. I have, therefore, to move secondL 0 r dSb time. p tb a t the Property Tax'Continuance The Duke of NEWCASTLE was exremely, sorry to tres passcame to a final decision -upon the question. He was the upon their Lordships for a short time before they more anxious to do so because it was not his intention to o b T e e re 3 a 'o d u a r oppose the second reading; on the contrary, he wieuld giv ite the measure his cordial assent. Nevertheless, he felt desirable, in the present • state of the country, that there should be a 'discussiene -upoa. the . financial affairs of the country. He would remind their Lordships of the circum stances under which this tax .originated, and was continued by successive• Governments. • The Noble Earl would forgive him for referring to a statement which 'he made.last year in respect to this subject. The Noble Earl's statement on the present occasion as to this tax being originally pro posednot the whole truth.- The tax was origina ll y p roposed, not as a temporary measure, was the. truth, but it was only for the purpose of meeting a temporary Ofi cienc Y , but also of enabling- the Government to d eal with the other revenues of the State in such a manner as.would enable them to dispense with it as a permanent tax. . In 1840, the Chan caller of the Exchequer of that day , b ein g in a deficiency, recommended, as an experiment, that 10 p er cent. should be added to the direct taxes of the country , and 5 p er cent. to the indirect taxes. 'What wa's the result? The 10 per cent. brought in the whole amount of the tax contemplated; but the 5 per cent. returned something less than .e. per cent. upon the calculations of• • the Chancellor of the Exche q uer. The fact was thus proved that the taxes u p on , articles of con sumptidn had reached their utmost limits. It was therefore necessary, with a view - to their reduction, that in, the mean while an income-tax should be reimposed. That Was the policy of the late Siteßobert Peel in 1842.' .On the 19th of May, the Noble Earl, in reply to . the • Noble Marquis the then President of the Council, said he was prepared to iote for the abolition of the property-tax, as such a (system 4f, taxation was calculated to bring 'ruin: on the coantry, He (the Noble. Duke) contended that...all the evidence they could obtain went to-shoev. that this system of taxation had conduced considerably to the prosperity,of the coun try. As one of The strongest proofs of. such prosperity, he need only refer to the - late speech. of. the Chancellor of the Exchequer: Within the last ten years there had been a remission of taxation amounting to .about 12,000,0001., not withstanding which the feetenue of the country coal in as prosperous a state as ever it. was before such remission, and the comforts and-happiness of the people had been, consi derably increased. Of coffee, in . 1841, there I were 28,500,0001b5. consumed, ev.hile in the laat,year the quan tity was 32,500,0001 be. Tea, in 1841 ,was 36,500,0001b5., whereas in 1851 it - rose to 54,000,00a1b5. The consump tion of sugar in . 1841 was 4,000,000 cwts.;_ia 1851 it was 6,500,000. Cocoa, in - 1811, was 2,000,000 cwt.; . whereas in 1851 it rose to nearly 3,000,000 cwt.. .oar expOrts increased within the time more than 50 per cent., . and -.our imports more than 70 per cent. , What, however, was the case with- America? Why, the last speech of the President of the, United States contained sti paragraph lamenting the large exports of specie which were gradually leaving .the coffers of 'the country; while; on the contrary, the specie in the doffere of this wintry had increased tremendously within the last few years. t might be said that the discovery of the gdld mines in California 'lte led to such a result. Why, this was a fact that told altogether against the Noble Lord's argu-• ments, and rendered a return to protection absolutely impos sible. Ho had listened to the Chancelloieof the. Exchequer's admissions as to thee result of their legislation in reference to: sugar with the 'greatest pleasure, because it was a triumphant _proof of, the success of such legislation. The advantages gained from the repeal of the navigation-laws were equally apparent. There has not only be e p a lar g e increase in the shipping, butethere has been a corresponding increase in the 'number of seamen employed. Besides that the transit trade had grown up to a position of the greatest importance. Some of the chief ports of the country, such as null, would soon .become entrepots of intercourse between Europe and America, 'and in spite of the declatnatioes of "G. Fe Young ' the effects of the repeal of the navigation laws had been favourable to the shipping interest. ; ,Vessels, ate nbw built cheaper and of d yachtingbes affected better; than they been, as Noble Lords who were importanteeewtidere well aware. Ano ther stead a Most point was the wayin which the' agricultural intere s t ha corn-laws. 'Putting •asidethe by the repeal of the farmers;vaiat had been•she-eeal t ff'ets 'upon the landlords and population of the • country ? ‘c;. ,e upon the great bulk of the , merely into the markets of marketttheie Lordships go, not and converse with those who bought and sold there, but go towns on market days, among the people; let them foll ow i House In those• domiciliary' visits which of tho e aher have to. laugh)— an d he, they would soon wou'd soon find the altered position of th p e ereuaded they iuhebitants: Ile did' Dot - merely speak •of the great bivetoof popula tion, Glasgow and Birmingham, Liverpool , and Zaraster, ' but of county tow ns of 8,000 or 10,000. inhabitanti_euec h as Salisbury or Grantham—or he might mention a place from which a warning voice had that night been heard— Wicdsor. Hon. Members of the other House would aesu redly discover that there had been a great alteration since Coen last-visit in 1847.—(A laugh.) They would find a s inerked,improvAnent, which could only be attributed to a d, crease in the price of provisions. They .- ward 'he told all this by the women.—(Laughter.)- Noble Lords might laugh, but there was no surer indicetian of -- the do mestic condition of the people than the account which the women would give on electi - ,n occasions. And he declared that if two per cent. of the female portion of the population asked for a restoration of the corn laws, or any equivalent, to deprive them of what they called the " cheap loaf," he (the Duke of Newcastle) would surrender the question. He believed that, on the contrary, tales would be heard from the wives and daughters of working men more pathetic in their humble prose than ' he forcible poetry of': Corn-law Rhymes," tales as powerfully proving the folly of restoring the corn laws as those rhymes - showed .the folly of .ree taining them. Why, the importation of corn arnoluated to nearly 10,0e0,000 quarters! Did not the very impertatinft of that quantity prove that it was wanted? Was it net clear that the provision for the labouring clasaes had been:, made a certainty, which before had been matter of specula tion? And was there any ore prepared to take a course which would deprive them of this supply? Even the agri cultural village - 9 showed the improvement. The poor-law returns showed a diminution over the whole area of England 'of 7?-, per cent. ill the number of oatipers relieved. Nor had the improvement been merely in the manufacturing dis tricts; the returns proved...tile reverse. • The few towne in which there had been an increase included some manu facturing towns, such as -Leicester and Nottingham; while among the districts in which there had been the largest decrease in pauperism were Berks, &eke, Devonshire, 'Westmoreland, and the East Riding. The returns proved that in the villages and smaller towns there had -been a decrease of pauperism con , equent upon the increased means of subsistence ,and the augmented means of employment. The case was the same with Scotland.. To support his statements as to England the Noble ',fake referred here to a return of a poor-law inspector for one of the districts, in which it was stated that, out of se population of three millions, only three-seventieths were in the receipt of relief. The period of the return was for three years after 1848. The corn-law had been repealed in 1846, but did not come into operation till 1849. So the returns probed that the diminution of pauperism had been con current with the abolition of protection. In 1843 there Were on the poor-law books in the district referred to 79,000. In 1849 this number had been reduced, in round numbers, to 74 000 ; in 1850, to 69,000 ; and, in 1831, to 65,000. The 'diminution of crime tended to establish similar conclusions. At the last quarter sessions there had been hardly any of those offences which of old were used to occupy several days. Ile contended, then, that these facts showed that they were the true friends of industry who had relieved it of its fetters, and sent the people to work either at the loom or the plough. It was indeed said that there had been great distress in the country. He did not deny it. He -had never denied it. He believed it was to be looked for as the natural result of the transition from one state to another. He had never anticipated that such a a change could be effected without slime severe dis tress. He knew, however, that in some districts rents were he believed this to. be not prejudge what 100 ratherbgijhad dt q o u b e e stioo. reduced, Ho wouldan course' the Noble Earl might pursue next sessi on o n this subject. No one could raise a voice against the p resen t Bill, big);, a iand and landlord's and it was very probable that a similar measure would be brought forward again. He (the Duke of Newcastle) wished such broad hints had not been thrown out on the Part of the Gevernment as to direct taxation being im practicable without exemptions, and with exemptions practically confiscation.—(Hear,. Hear, . bear.) And if the tax were to be abandoned before the revenue had equalised itself with expenditure, and the increase of the amount derived from other taxes now existing, be hoped the Noble Earl 'would not resort to duties on articles of trade, and, above all, the food of the people. He entreated the Noble Earl to abandon the idea aenhimerical. He (the Duke of Newcastle) would not deal in menace to their Lordships, especially in times so quiet and contented. But he was much mistaken if the people of this country, however attached to their. Sovereign and their constitution would suffer any withdrawal of the benefits Oleo had obtained by free trade. H e was persuaded ..- they would not allow any measure by which, directly or indirectly, any increase upon the burdens of the consuming classes should take place. ,He hopO the Parliament about to be returned would resist any reversal or revision of the free-trade policy. • He did not; of course, mean to exclude wise revision of details, but such a revision as was talked of by " free-trade Derbyites" at electiees, who spoke against reversal while reserving to themselves the power of re vision. It was doubtless intended, by these slippery phrases to do that indirectly which could not be done directly ; but he beliebed the resistance of the people would be equally great; and their discontent greater. The Noble Earl had spoken of the Conservative character of his Govern ment, and of his being a barrier against the encroachments of democracy. If there were ever such," encroachments" he (the Duke. of Newcastle) would be a humble follower of the Noble Earl; but he saw no symptoms of such en croachments, and only observed that occasionally an agita tor's speech fell flatly upon the people's eara'a-(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Earl had no right to assume to himself this position until ho had " made a clear breast of it" upon this most important qUestion. A declaration from. the Noble Earl before Parliament was dissolved that he had finally abandoned any intention of restoring the corn-laws would place the Noble Earl in a proud position before the people. But a Conservative policy at this day was a policy of rational, steady, well-considered, and, because steady and well-con sidered, safe and salutary progress.—(Cheers from the Oppo sition.) It was impossible to stand still without danger, and any attempts at that re-actionary policy, of which there had been recently some symptoms, would accelerate the onward progress of that democracy, the advance of which the Noble Earl anticipated and deprecated. He repeated, the proper policy of a Conservative Government was progress; to stand still was peril ; and re-action was revolution.—(Cheers from the Opposition- ) Lord BERNERS, after stating that in some counties the cry was " Free -trade and starvation," referred to certain re turns showing that the expenditure for the relief of the poor in 1850, which was 5,305,000 1 ., was 440,0001. more than for the year 1836—(Hear, hear)—and, though it was less than for the year 1849, it was only one farthing per head on the population less than the average of the seven years when there was the highest price of wheat. It might, perhaps, be supposed that when there was the lowest average price of wheat we sho ild have the lowest amount of expenditure for the poor, but such was-not the fact. The minimum price of wheat in 1e37 was 525. If then, he took the last sixteen years, and took out the eight years when wheat was above 525., and eight when it was below that price, he found a very large proportion in favour of high prices. The expenditure for the last five years was greater by 2,000,000/. than for the five preceding years; and the expenditure for 1850, though less than for 1849, was greater than for any other year since 1836. From another return he .also found that from 1846 there Was a general decrease of the sums deposited. For 1849 there were 20,000 depositors less than for 1846, and 3,206,0001. less year, certainly, deposited in amount, though last there was a little increase. • Lord WODEHOUSE said his observation did not lead him to the same conclusion as the Noble Earl. The years 1818 and 1849 had beenowing to Years ofgreat depression, . causes quite separate from the f free trade. He hardly believed that —at least uestion o in theart of the country with which he was best acquainted the eastern counties —'-it was at all disputed that the condition of thelbouring classes had vastly improved. It - would ' a rise wages seem that the , in which was observable had created some apprehension in the mind of the farmer that - the f the labourer i conditioa o would improve more rapidly tie ' t If the argument of Noble Lords,oppoaite was an his own. the depre-• ciation in the condition of the for anything, would be a continually-in Creasing depreciation.llgricultii•eal body If the farmer was living upon his capital, h e mus more and t every year go more towards the verge of ruin so frequently predicted. He appealed- to e; o hich had been Lords who were ac quainted with the agricultural ble' districts whether, instead of their being in a continual stet e there was not a decidedly improved and healthful d reciation,. occupiers of land. He believed that the ful tone among the., most sanguine hopes were being excited in the breasts 'of the . an d that- they were being aroused to a greater degreefarmers than ever. He could notenergy and industry, of s. terous argument that had be help noticing the very p . repo other House of Parlianae nt r in that, or in the used—not - but out of doors—that, not withstanding the many his and flour annually imported ' red thousand quarters of corn loaf more of bread had bee into this country, not a single show that there was no f earn eaten by the people. Now, to he might state that by the nf land going out of cultivation, no less than last64.e rert of the Enclosure Com missioners applications had been made to them; of these 161 had been co al report, and of th e ren disp ose d o f b e f o re the last an of land, and the quantity ng 483, 36:4 were for en closuresoil ntit y comprised in the applica tions and - authorised to be enclosed, • e the last general re port, was 46,798 acres. Alth since treated as one of reason and d ough the question withth9re great body of' the people one _.eliberation, it . was Lasthe Government when the Noble B ar i I T st interest. theedeepe , , , Government tiponlits sho had not the responsibility of a alders, and had not succeeded in forming an Admstration ample and deliberate and en ' he had given them a very lie was going to do , but or WI ramme, not of what s tated that he - should have p ro would halite done. He and extension of the ineone e - P t rePoeed a gradual diminution That W es ., duty upon c ax coupled with a moderate ' forth: - -but clearly and policy c di st i ll t 7 not dimly shadowed the Noble Lord would ad opt t c he Y• anunei . egad He wished same course now. I . p was an extraordinary state of things Minister of the Crown making when they had the Finance principres establishing th e , g an elaborate statempet of tree-trade policy of the late Government, and then they had head of the Administration—. the .Noble Earl at the n e Mansion-house making en t In that House, at butthe elaborate mystification of the facts used by his Chancellor On r of the Exchequer. the eve of an approaching ,election,? it was most essential that they should have some explanation of the Po .of the Government—whether it adeemed adv is able. to reverse the policy of the late Sir Robert Peel, do tit in its entirety, and carry it out. There eee or a p re other matters, such as the.navigation - laws , the timber duties, and the tea. duties, ' upon which it would be very desirable some opinion should be pronounced; and he believed other states were anxiously waiting to see whether this country would con tinue:: to pursue tha policy, it hed commenced. d ' lie could assure the s Noble Earl that by th e silence he had adopted he was doing injury to the cause 'of the .4 which great parte, he Ifeaded;' and however much h e Might differ from that party, he did not wish to see it destroyed. The Earl of ALBEMARLE trusted the Noble Earl would give ; the Hplaces aa be was s e wile little Thieling'of his future policy-..1n other p 'chary. of his opinions, for. at the Mansion-house he had indulged in what hi s N o bl e g F r iend -called an elaborate m y stificatio n; and he hoped itiwquld not be said that his policy could only be elicited by turtle and champagne.. The Noble Earl had, there spoken of a large class unconnected with manufactures. Would the Noble , Earl inform them whom he meant ? There were three denoa minations of persons in the agricultural class—the labourer, the tenant-farmer, and the landlord. He would assume at once that it was not the landlord, and he inferred that it could not be the labourer. He feared the House was impa tient.—(Cries of "No," "Go o n.") - Well, then, wallet the Noble Earl inform him of any period when the labouring man _ thanks to the blessings of free trade —enjoyed a larger supply of lireeii, butter, bacon, e ggs, tea, sugar, and collie? (Cheers.) Then there was the poorman's luxury, itobacco ; and he would call their Lordships attention to the increased consumption of that as an evidence of the improved condition of the labouring classes. The calculations of the consumption , of tobacco_ per head , in the five' last decennial periods was, omitting fraitions of ' ounces, in 1821, 11 oz. per head ; 1831 , 12 oz. ; 1841, la oz. •, and 1851, 1 6 0 5. He helieyed that more skill and capital bad. been expended in agricultural pursuits by the tenant farmers since the . passing of the free-trade m easures than period. His Noble Friend at any previous p .had spoken of th e consumption of bones and foreign manures—he found that in the last fi ve years the quantities ireported were, in 1848;-103,00) tens; in 1849, 112 , 0 00 tons; in 1850, 144,000 tons; and in 1851, 274,000 tons, showing an increase of 137 per cent, He admitted that there w as di stress amo ng the' tenantefarmers here and there, but a the present was a transition state, and the improvements going on i n all comma was en evidence that they were recovering from it. He had received a number of letters from various parts of the country corroborating those facts. The first was from Bungay, from a Mr. Scott, a large agriculturist, who stated that the change back to protection could not be made with out creating something like a rebellion in the manufactur ing districts. In a letter from the Rev. George Sandy s, of Trixham, Suffolk, he ,stated that ihe tenant - farmer had suffered grist losi of t oufroth aelght; but he had neve; -knownethe labours of the board of' guardian s , o f w hi c h was chairman, lighter, and had never known the ice house so comparatively free froth able-bodied 'paupers. • - The poor man had had more in his mouth for the la s t th ree years than he had everfrom had before. Another letter the gen tleman who managed his estates in Norfolk, and 'who was a Protectionist in opinions, stated that his observation, which was of no limited time and over no small extent of country, led him to believe that there never was more activity ormore disposition to improve among the agricultural body. Every man who had sufficient. capital to stand the existing -depression was doing evegthieg in his power to Improve his condition, "and that accounted fdr all e the labourers , being eniPlnyed• .He bad • another:letter froni Aire 131 y th, one of the first pgriculturists of the county of Node& in district where all the people depended directly or indi rectly upon agriculture.• The condition of the farrders there was-improved; there were few hands out of employ anent, few applications for relief, and frequent inquiries tor labourers.. Immense exertions were being made to increase the produce of the land by keeping more stock, feeding more cattle, and adopting a more cleanly system of tillage. An other letter, from a gentleman whose name he was not at liberty to mention, said the industry, skill, and capital of the figriceltural,ciasses was materially improved-since he had become connected with West Norfolk, ten years agd. The farmer bought more manure,cultivated higher, and the agricultural mind appeare I tote more active. These were a few,of the opinions of some of the most intelligent farmers of the country. Under these circumstances he iniplored the Noble Earl to declare whether what the world was beginning to think probable was the fact, that conviction was about to dawn upon the Government and produce a great change in their policy. After a raw words in explanation from Lord BERNERS, Earl GRANVILLE said if. any Noble Lord on the oppo- . , site side was about to rise, he would at once retire.—(Bear, and laugh.) He hoped some Noble Lord connected with the Government would give some explanation to the House — let them either confute the facts and 'statements of the Noble Duke (Newcastle), or at once frankly and generously admit they had been in error in having for so long a time opposed the commercial system which had been recently adopted in this country. Let not the' fact go to the country that they were unwilling to admit what had been stated, and tenable. to deny it. He thought such a course would be one of which the House and the country would have some right to complain. The Noble Earl, in the short speech in which he had introduced a most important mea sure to their -Lordships, stated the course the Government meant to take—viz., that during the present session they would only propose and pass such measures as were actually necessary, and that: then they would make an appeal to the country to decide upon the principles and policy . they, should pursue with reference to certain great questions. At the time it appeared to him, although he had no right to ask the Noble Earl to define the peecise measures that Would be brought forward after the general election, that they ,had a right to expect that the Noble Earl should have stated the general principles, tendency, and colour of the policy upon which 'the country would be called upon to decide. But the fact was, that so far frem,giving any hint as to the general principles or policy proposed to be pursued, appeals were made to the con stituencies sometimes by members of the Government, some times by Hon. Gentlemen who were the ordinaty supporters of the Government, and also by speeches of different ten dencies one from the other, so that the electors -were much more in the dark as to the probable policy of the Govern. ment than on the very day when they assumed the reins of epewer,—(Hear, hear.) It was most desirable that the coun try should know whether it was intended to' relieve the: landed interest by an import duty on foreign corn or by some other indirect means, or whether it was intended to carry out the commercial system introduced by the late Sir Robert:Peel. Judging from the speech of the Noble Earl at the beginning of the year, he would infer that the Noble Earl believed the present system was fraught with mischief, and that he was still of opinion that a recurrence to a duty I 'on corn, for purposes of revenue and ptotection, was a mat ter of necessity -- The Earl of DERBY—The Noble Earl is quite wrong in. Supposing that I said a duty on foreign corn was ,a matter ,of ne.eassity. I stated, that for the purpose at once of re lieeing the suffering agricultural interest, and also for the purpose of improving. the revenue, and thereby enabling us to takicff other taxes without injury to the consumer, I thought it might be desirable to impose a moderate fixed duty on foreign corn. I distinctly stated that that was my owe opinion. I did not say that it was a matter of necessity, bat I stated that, whether the relief should be given by the imposition ,of a duty upon foreign corn was a matter which rested upon the judgment of the constituencies, but, that I thought that was a desirable mode of affording relief to the agricultural classes.' I hold to that opinion still ; but I state again, that that is a question which must be left to the con stituencies of the country ; and, moo over, if it give any sa tisfaction to the Noble Earl, and to the Noble Lords oppo site, my opinion is, from what I have since heard and learned, there certainly will not be in favour of the re-imposition of a duty on foreign corn that extensive majority, without which as rstated to your Lordships at the beginning of the session„ it would not be desirable to propose it.—(Lead cheers item the Opposition benches.) Earl GRANVILLE was glad that the' mistake in his mind as to the Noble Earl's expressions had produced a de claration which would be hailed with the greatest satisfac tion by the country, that there was no likelihood of re-im posing a duty upon corn. He was glad to find• that this great question of raising the price of food by the production of an artificial scarcity was at last and for ever given up. There was one other pledge given by the Noble Earl with regard to the navigation-laws. The Noble Earl said that be had no intention of re-enacting the navigation - laws. The present system had, he believed, been found in practice to work most beneficially, and it had already been considerably promoted by other countries. No less than 500 British vessels had within the last year entered the ports of the United States, which, previously to the repeal of the navigation-laws, could not be admitted, and of these no less than about 400 had been cleared out. He really thought, after the declaration of the Noble Earl, so suddenly and unexpectedly made to them, which showed that he had come to the only conclusion which Noble Lords on that side of the House believed the Government could come, that it was unnecessary to trespass further upon the attention of - their Lordships. . The Marquis of CLANRICARDE complained that upon the second reading of one of the most important Bills ever, laid before that House, their Lordships had not been sum moned. The Earl of DERBY should say that he had not come down to the House that evening prepared to go into a de bate on the seecnd reading of the Bill. He thought to have it read a second time pro forma, and to have taken the debate in Committee. Had he any idea that a debate would have been raised on the question, he should have come prepared to meet it ; but their Lordships might perceive by the benches on the Ministerial side of the House, that none of the sup porters of her Majesty's Government were present, which would not be the case were there any expectation that the debate would now be gone into. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that if the Noble Earl opposite (Earl Derby) had intimated to the House at an early period that it was his intention to take the second reading pro forma, there would be no objection whatever.— (Hear, hear.) When the Noble Earl intimated to him (the Duke of Newcastle) his intention of taking the second read ing pro forma, he instantly acquiesced, but at the same time assured the Noble Earl that other Noble Lords would be more or less taken by surprise at the adoption of such a course, understanding that a debate was to ensue on the second reading. He should say if the Noble Earl the First Minister of the Crown were taken by surprise in the matter, it was by his own officials in the other House who failed to give him proper intimation.—(Hear.) The Earl of DERBY said, that, though a matter of con venience, it would not be a matter of absolute necessity that the Bill should - pass before the Whitsuntide holidays. The. Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed that the Bill was accepted by the country only on the grounds of its being a temporary measure. He called on the Noble Earl the First Minister of the Crown to declare at once—as to such declaration he should come next year—that he did not intend to re-impose a burden on any class of the community for the benefit of another.—(Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Earl declare that he would give np protection to agriculture as it had been called, as, by doing so now, it would be more convenient to the country, and advantageous to the Go vern ment.—(Elear, hear. ) The Earl of DERBY made an observation across the table which did not reach the gallery. Earl GREY had heard with great surprise the observa tions of the Noble Earl opposite (Earl of Derby) in the course of the incidental conversation which took place that evening. The income-tax had been for several years the keystone of their fiscal position ; and no Minister of the Crown, in mov ing its continuance or re-imposition, ever failed to explain the motives and reasons that demanded its re-enaetment.— (Haar, hear.) Last year, when his Noble Friend (the Mar quis of Lansdowne) moved the second reading of a similar Bill, he thought it right respectfully to state his views to the House on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) It was at great in convenience that he (Earl Grey) attended there that even ing, as was Also the case with many other Noble Peers at his tide of-the House, , who camefully prepared to hear the sub ject entered into. If the Noble Ear) opposite had intimated previously his intention • of taking the second reading pro forma, no Noble Lord, be was sure, would have objected. But, after coming down to the House at _much inconve nience, and then to be told that the Noble Ear/ had arranged to take the discussion on a later stage, was not, he should say, treating the House with proper or becomingshould respect nsi..der (El ear, hear.) It was rig ht that the House co this matter, as it eves one of deep and vital importance to the country. If Noble Lords opposite were afraid to avow or maintain their former opinions, were Noble Lords on the Opposition side of the House It was th er efore to wmith perit the atter grea tot be slurred over?—(ear , H hear.) pleasure he had heard the speech of the Noble Duke who preceded him (Earl Grey) that evening. He would not repeat the statements of that Noble Duke (the Du k e of Newcastle), but he should observe that on t h e Minis terial side of the House no contradiction ha d been given to the facts stated by his Noble Friend. T hermaladg.heen great reductions of taxation without correspong z d h i _ nutions in the revenue. Trade had been pr.ospuersoues! very d ry spirit of enterprise and activity now distng bct branch of our industry, not even excluding (Hear, to which so much reference had been mad • e agri_culture , hear.) Pauperism had been dinainished.; and, according to the. statement of the Chancellor of t he enEl2l'igchheeerutehr.enthaet present of the country had never theeresult of free trade p—(Hear, hear.) Not one of tho be fatal consequences' predicted by Noble Lords opposite as had come to realization. There was one ilnbject which, from the office he (Earl Grey) latelye had , w th h e i _ e t h ir h o e ur wa to e hold, he felt interested in, and, as r e garde d informed, the Government had ma d e o t up e t e h h e s i h r ih i g ni y n e d a s r_ to effect an alteration in the co i r \ i ,e rs; as that was the case, namely, the article of sugar. interest which he took in the and considering the very dee question, he hoped to be p i_n_pitited to go into a few details.— Duke,who commenced the dia.. (Hear, hear.) The No t b h l er e e .n ogfreeautgincrease which had taken cussion had pointed out ar. He found that in the place in the consump o last year preceding the ;iteration in the duties —April; 1846 —the consumption of sugar w 5,71 consumption4,ooo whilst reached fo d r t h e year ending April, 1852 as , t h e 7,500,000 cwt. In the year ending July , 1814 , the whole quan tity of sugar admitted was 4(1..145,0.00 January last, the quantity amounted to 4,033,00.0 cwt. So that we consumed at present within 100,000 cwt . I/1 half a year of what we for merly consumed in a whole year— (Hear, hear). That was a striking fact, but v ery . easily accounted for.— (Hear, hear.) Before the introduction of foreign sugar, and when there was e th market, he found by returnuthat, looking a monopoly in -- at the prices in bond, foreign sugar wits 345. 9d. per cwt., whilst British sugar was only 21s. 3d. per cwt., making a difference of 13s. 6d. per cwt. to the consumer. In that same year the consumption of sugar reached 4,145,000 cwt., and therefore, in addition to a large revenue, tlis British consumer was taxed to an extent of no less t h an 2,790,0001. But the remit of the reduction of the duty was, that whilst the consumer had benefited enormously, the revenue, instead of suffering, had become greatly the gainer, so that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might well declare that, as regarded sugar, the increase in consumption vas a marvellous example of re ducing duties.—(Bear, hear.) Tao benefits of the measure, as far as this country was concerned, could not be contested ,after that declaration. ,When foreign sugar was first ad enitted;they were told that the effect would be to destroy the cultivation of s ugar in the colonies, as also to give a fresh impulse to slavery. From that statement he (Earl Grey) at the time entirely dissented, and stated ae opinion that the ultimate effect would be to promote the abolition of the slave trade, and to increase, instead of diminish, the cultivation of colonial sugar.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the slave trade, his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) when leaving office was able to con gratulate himself and the country on the practical extinc tion of the slaventrade ; and ho believed there bad no change since then occurred. He was aware that Cuba was now planted by free labour ; and a contract had been entered into for the supply of 80,000 free labourers to the CuLarVeolony. The . itiar - t• point they were. cautieuedeen was the destruction of the centivatien Df sugar, a branch of industry in whiCh any falling-off was certain to: Make' itSelf manifest in a very, brief period. Now, as he had been interested in this matter, he had compared the averages of the three last years of protection - from 1839 to 1841—in the thevEea a s r t a l f i u id i i io es w , h3 W g e s t Indies, and Mauritius, with the three the r t e h s r u e l e t w y a e s a r a s e f - o a l s l t o i vri nc a r g ea s. e e om ii p i le tl t i e e e the complete em a ncipation of the trade, and With res pect to British leuiana, the of that colony, Governor an pr_od ( uced in in a dispatch dat e d t h e 1 aril of mcleaneecitiptayti Hear.) of November last, ,aid that the shr no e , e reasosn ort past; far and ap p situation of the p ropr i etors was better than it had been for o retbhaentedinic a iftvhe.revaecrtseed. T prudently,heaal there wa ge nerally felt with reg ar d to the fall in sugar was not l evit _ re gard to slave-grow n sugar , b ut beetroot sugar; but he (Earl Grey) believed that alarm to be perfectly u even with heavy pr o t ec ti ve duties be•didn Btanfo thinktuhnilse d for ett. skive-growers eras arowirs aware a ve t roet could compete with th e sugar-cane. however, the e rheatasexmtreine much a d l i a s r tr m e P s -d s e aa x P i o s ti ted e, in Tamaica, and that at this moment the pressure was most severe; but Jamaica, considering the value of the soil and climate, and the character of the inhabitants, ought not the other be in a disadvantageous positio n as compared with other colonies. That suffering, howev er , h e believed-to have arisen partly from the ravages of the c h o l era, bat more from the planters havipg listened too much to the advice of Noble Lords opposite, and to a disposition to neglect other means of improving their condition in favour of a visionary attempt to Win back protection. The Legislature of Jamaica, neglecting remedial measures, had fixed their eyes anon protection, and nothifig else. The result was that whilst other colonies were progressing, whilst the production of Mauritius was making a gigantic advance, Jamaica showed little signs of improvement.. Turning to our own country, he believed that the improvement observable in it was the result of our having liberated its industry from the restric tions to which a vicious policy bad formerly subjected it. And yet that great commercial and financial revolution begun in 1846, and almost completed in 1849 by the repeal of the navigation-laws, took place under - circumstances the most disadvantageous. In the first place, the corn-laws were hardly repealed when the potato disease, which .had been partially felt during the preceding &Annie, appe ar ed w i t h tenfold violence. Cbncurrently with this there was a defi ciency of corn throughout the greater part of Europe, and the consequence was that in Ireland, during the whole of 1846 and part of 1847, there was an absolute famine, while in this country the price of food was high, and distress followed. In 1847 every man felt apprehensive as to whe ther the supply of corn would be sufficient to feed the peo ple. At one period e about this time, corn sold in Mark-lane for 100 s. a quarter. A NOBLE PEER-1255. a quarter. Earl GREY believed at upwards of 100 s a quarter. Added to this, 8,000,0001. were borrowed for the relief of Ireland, and the country had to suffer the effects of the re-action of the railway mania and of overtrading in 1845 and 1846, and during the latter part of 1847 it probably went through more disasters than had ever preVieusly befallen it. To complete this combinaiion of adverse circumstances, there was the re volutii•n which occurred in France in the spring of 1848, and which spread itself from one end of the continent to the other. ' But under, and, as he contended, by virtue of the free-trade policy, the country had successfully passed this tremendous trial. The people submitted to privations with patience and resignation, because they knew they were not artificially produced, and they met with a speedy reward. Industry and commerce revived, and all trace of these fear ful calmities was lost in an inconceivably short space of time. And what was the result in a financial point of view ? Why, that the country had made provision by more than 974,0001. for the 10,000,000/. borrowed in 1847 and 1848. Such a result was not only a subject of congratulation by those who maintained the free-trade policy which led to it, but by those who paved the way prior to 1846. For himself, he rejoiced to have taken part in the commercial discussions which had preceded and accompanied the measures of free trade. When the success of these free-trade measures had been. so com pletely established, it was natural that the country should feel much anxiety as to whether the powerful party to which the Noble Earl (Derby) belonged intended to tamper with them. The Noble Earl had made an important declaration to-night, but up to this moment the country were as much at a loss to know what the views of her Majesty's Govern ment were as the first day that they took office. The Noble Earl, on entering office, had said he would not attempt the re-imposition of a duty on corn unless he had the powerful concurrence of the country. The Chancellor of the Exche quer, however, had told his constituents on his re-election that the agriculturists were to have relief by a countervailing duty on corn, as he called it, or by some other cheap and simple mode of relief, and that the Government were deter mined to afford that relief. Not long after, the Right Hon. Gentleman made a most able speech in the other House of Parliament on' introducing the very resolution which was the foundation of the present Bill. In that speech the Right Hon. Gentlemen made a most careful and admirable state ment of the advantages of free trade; but unfortunately the Noble Earl opposite, not long afterwards, made what he called a supplemental speech, and to a festive audience de clared that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a most excellent speech, but that he had not touched upon the subject of the advantages of a compromise with the landed interest; and the Noble Earl on that occasion went on to insist upon the necessity of some compromise being entered into with the landed interest on account of the advantages which had been afforded to the consumer. In the course of this somewhat unuml proceeding, the Noble Earl informed the assembled citizens that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was only an imperfect statement of the views of the Government, and that another important part of those views ought not to be lost sight of. Unfortunately this was not all, for after this supplementary speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he had been very much misunderstood —that be had given no opinions in his budget-speech, and that he in tended to act upon all the principles he bad asserted when in opposition. This was a somewhat startling proposition, produced, perhaps, by murmurs in the camp . But this was not all. There had appeared variou s addresses from the adherents of the Government. Even gent l e m e n ho ldin g office had stated in their addresses to constituents very d to contradictory views of the policy suppose Cabinet, the said One Right Honourable Gentleman, not in that he accepted office only in the full conviction that the Noble Earl would reverse the policy of Sir Robert Peel ; and that Right Hon. Gentleman still remained in office. But, thanks to the vigorous application of the screw by his (Earl Grey's) Noble le•en d (Earl Granville ), a statement Government re-impose that it was not the intention of the to b een :r eluctantly extorted. There was a duty on corn had something else, however, the back ground. What it was , the contrivers did not say; but he (Earl Grey) thought he knew something of the nature of it. Tae Chancellor in speaking of this scheme, said it was of the Exchequer, : with which the dui on corn something in comparison would be less costly, less inconvenient, and more simple. If that were so, h e (Earl Grey) said, let them go back to the duty on corn. But he thought there ought to be an d d' - end to this ambiguity an stu led concealment If the Noble Lord and his supporters believed they had been all along wrong, let them say as much— (Hear, hear)—if they believed they had been right, let them discuss the question in a straig htforwar d manner. It was not right that a Go vernment w bia s was to compose reconcile town and country, and for ever heal past differences , should , in order to serve some pitiful electioneering purposes, keep their views concealed. As a straightforward declaration-was the most manly and best for the interests of the country, so it was the best for the strength and stability of the Adminis tration.—(Hear, hear.) This was a question on which the Government had no right to shrink from explanation. By explanation the Noble Earl might incur reproach for having grossly deceived himself or others; or, in the reckles pursuit of party objects, he might have sacrificed what he knew to be the best interests of the country. On the other hand, he mig in ht have erred from blindness or want of judgmatis t..adgln. either case little confidence would be inspired his - meat.. The Noble Earl must choose between two alter To one he tives—want of judgment or want of, candour.ineur th e penalty must submit ; and he would therebyebad pursued Mr due to the erroneous course , the penalty and last six years. From that .p yh e could not escap the longer he attempted t o e diaguise his views t he heavier it would be.. L or ds, I cannot but thank the, The Earl of DERBY—MY . offering' the two tempting hindneSB in Noble Earl for .-- 14 e d (near, hear. and a laugh)—but alternatives he bas nem :7 0 says on behalf of myself and I trust I may be pernien t my colleagues in the other House of my Noble Friends, and nut we shall be driven to accept Parliament, that I do n theM Lords, with due respect to either of them.—(Cheem) T maim tat liberty of repeating the the Noble E4ll ' tof this discussion, and more espe • opinion that a greatpar your Lordshipshave cl ad of the speech ally the greater p heard,-is in a great measure, if not altogether, i rrelevant to question under debate---(Hear, hear) -- that question the . ' • conditi being w h et h er , considering the financialon of the country, we shall renew for a single year an objectionable t a x, or leave the country with a deficiency, this year of 2,000,000/., and, probably, next year of 5,000,000/. ?—(Rear, hear.) my Lords, I say, in a debate on the introduction of such a Bill for such a purpose, I do not think it is relevant ' to enter upon a discussion of the whole commercial policy of the country , the more especially as th e Noble Earl k now s, from the circumstances in which the Government have been placed, and the circum s t ances under whili eln they h a ve taken office, that a f u ll and complete discussion of the subject on their part i s impossible (Heaiscussion greater portion of the spe ec h o f t h e N oble Earl, I r.) The must refers to a power wholly i rre l evant to the say ' question of the continuance of the income-tax—l mean the effects of f trade in Sugar. And, my Lords, whil e on the ree one hand the Noble Earl, with a candour for which I thank him, ad mitted that the great revolution in the commercial policy of the country did not take place at an earlie r period than 1846, and consequently does not r e f er a t a ll to the earlier proposi tions of Sir Robert Peel's policy from 1842 to 1846, he has at the same time asked the question whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Government to pursue or abandon the com mercial policy of Sir Rob er t P ee l ; and he illustrates that question by an elaborate a rgument on the subject of the sugar duties. Now, my Lords, I must remind the Noble Earl and your Lordships that the abolition of differentia l duties on sugar was no part of the poliey of Sir Robert Peel: no part of his propositions ; and it is perfectly well h o° ` re that when the proposition was made by her Majesty's let° Government, Sir Robert Peel with the greatest reluctancet was induced to consent to the change; not he cuuee e „ i d ha to measure was wise, equitable, or just but because be se choose between the adojotion of an unjust and ie cour . of proceeding, and the - ...sleety late expulsion of her rdingly Government from office ; and Sir Robert Peel ace° e, of took the generous course, but I think iniP litic h e rd l o re pting supporting his suc cessors an d opponen ts, garb"- fore do not a policy to whi c h h e was himself opposed: the a bolition of let the Nobl e E ar l and the countr y claim of Sir Robert the differenti a l d ut i es on sugar as a portion bear.) With Peel's free trade or commercial policye—gisrior' sorry to say I regard to the effect of that measu re ' • pprehension when think the Noble Earl is under some s sa mis o a t - the slave trade, he speaks of the almost total cessation tieeentrade. In the first and attributes that cessation to tllndoubtedly, my Lords, place, he is wrong in point of fact• the part of our cruisers by a vigorous and active operation on the . coast of —by the a d opt i on o f coercion ei s ' e l ery much put da Africa and and Brazil, the slave trade has been been aided by the sincere late years our efforts hoe 'KVF_ , exertions of the Brazilian Government. lint tlali liiiisle Earl is in error, when, in speaking of Cuba, he says, either / increase; ar course ; ao t o n f dsd Ray y m o i s n ot ti oo that n . subjects bt ( jne E f oe e a t so , i ,aclhenetabrrae. trade moreo f Th e Cuba bo f sa a e e liy t s i ' ,', .-' that the slave trade is pat down, or that at this moment 's e '' ' . o i i t s n , ai thesndi connected than the effects of free trade in sugar in the West India colonies, and the increase of the slave trade in '" Cuba. At this moment, when, as has been admitted by t he Noble Earl, Jamaica is in a state of deep depression a nd distress, the steam machinery of Jamaica is being transfer stedlin Targequaptities to f Wee, thus .withdrawing it from the cultiltation of free-labour sugar to the cultiiittoti of slave.• labour sugar. I believe there can be no doubt whatever:— the Noble Earlbas admitted—that although in some of the colonies, there has been an increase in the production of sugar, ;,vet that in Jamaica there is a state of deep depression and distress existing, not arising from a diminution of pro duction, but from the unremunerative prices obtained for the Prodnee. The opinion I entertaine d on this subject in 1846 I entertain now; and it is, That in the long run it is nor pos sible for free-grown 'sugar, except in - same very favoured aituations,! to compete . with the slave sugar of Cuba and.. . Brazil ; and although it be quite true that et this moment -there is - nreiaereasiog amount of sugar imported from'British • colonies, yet if the Noble'' - Earl - will look at the Price Currents, .he will see that the increased amount .is., more than compensated by, the fall iu price, • tio. . that the planter has not the alternative of -•• absincloning the trade, and at the same tines he has no ; hope of carrying it on with advantage. But, my Lords, I say that the question of sugar is wholly apart from the ques tion :whether we shall or shall not continuethi income-tar for the present year.—.(Hear, bear.) The Noble Earl has introduced the question of the sugar duties, not apropos to any. measures proposed by her Majesty's Government, or statement made or announcement given, but because he understands, or has heaid some rumour, that in another sea sisn of Parliament her Majesty's Government intend to re trace past steps with regard to sugar. I apprehend that this is not a question upon which the Government are called at this moment to make a declaration, more especially under the engagement we have entered into—namely, that we are n ot, in t he course of this session, to submit any fiscal or financial measure to the consideration of Parliament. The /louse will, therefore, agree with me that nothing is more irnpoNtic, im prudent, or improper than to suggest or hold out any expec tation of fiscal change, at a time when it was impossible to discuss them, or to decide upon them until another Pafijae relent. The Nobleßarl,who has just tat down said that the speech pf the Chancellor of the E xche q uer in the course of the' presenesession shows that the subject of free trade is neces sarily had connected with the considera tion of the income-tax,, Now, It was the bounden duty of the C hancellor of the Ex _chequer to go into every , d e t a il connected with the revenu e or finances o f th e c ountr y, setting forth, not the merits of Uses or th a t p l an, b ut to s h ow w hat the progress of the re venueur ose of equalising the revenue and the expenditure been, before the House could be exp ected to a g ree to ) 7 measures for the P P of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was consequently impo ssible questions of duties • sugar e and corn, an t he of these articles especially in respect to in the lare articles of consumption — mor e whichezt for him to avoid dealing kith those d the importation largely into the revenue o f country. It was impossib r l the Noble Lord opposite, e cheqUer to overlook these f impossible for the Chancellor of the Lit- . time, and I say so now, it y l h Oh, but recollect that last year you admitted that if yog were to in office you would reduce the whi c h i . , r t e h n o d r e e ri Majesty's Government having eantt to (Hear, hear.) that declaration, her the means of doieg so.— But, subsequent able surplus, thought proper to do command a consider abolition of other taxes, and t he r eby away thought was with it by the hear.) impol iti c Therel p h o e ssi income — tax,-t e ax ar: d g o th n e ot x t e h d in u tioaof im t year art impolitic tax. and now think is an en that the Noble Lord is justified in pointin g tax, alto gether inconsistency on my part because last o pinion favourable to the gradual reduction o f income ten an ten during these times of peace. You have, howee u er de parted from your general financial system , and I howev e r, m that you must now submit to th i s ta x for a single at all events, because you have no surplus upon which you can confidently rely —(Hear.) lam not going to follow the Noble Lords who have spoken from the other side of the .' House Into a general discussion of the abstract measure of free trade, or what is called our commercial policy. To one portion of our commercial policy , I confess I was a wil ling party. I willingly assisted to reduce the amount of our differential duties, because I was desirous of placing the home and the foreign producer upon a footing of a reale not a. nominal—equality—I was desirous •of intro ducipg a boat fide competition, so as to give a fresh stimulus to this as well as to other countries. lam not igno a via, nor dope it take me at all by surprise, when I aid told that so far from diminishing, it had greatly increased, the amount of consumption. Whether the principle upon which this system was founded was introduced by the /ate Sir R. Peel or any Other party—to that principle lAM willing to give my utmost support, provided it inflicts no , • injustice upon any party, nor entails any loss upon the re venue.—(Hear, hear.) It may , no do ubt, be practicable to give the people a • greater command of the comforts and luxuries of life. No doubt, if the reduction of duties wiltdo. this, and not act unjustly to other 'classes, it must be a matter of. rejoicing to any man that the price of thme,ar tides is brought so low as to come within the reach of the Masses of the population. I will not deny bat that there has been a great boon conferred upon the consumers of this country by the diminished price of sugar, consequent upon. measure reauction of the duties. No one doubted but that such a. Measure would give a greater addition to the comforts of the people. But the question which we have to consider is, not singly or simply whether a great advantage has been con ferred upon the class of consumers in this country, but whether that advantage is bought by an act of injustice and spoliation to other parties, and by involving in ruin a large class of those who, upon the faith of your own Act of Parlia ment, embarked their all in the cultivation of the article the duties upon which you have so reduced? - (Hear, hear.) When those things are done, it is difficult to reverse them. But I confess in the face of this great advantage which the people Kaye derived from the importation of slave-grown sugar,'/ would much rather have seen 'a smaller advantage derived by tile improved cultivation and encouragement given to those who have a natural and rightful claim upon its than an increased advantage by an amount of cheapness gained by what I thought, and still thisk, was an act of in justice—an act the tendency of which was' to stimulate and encourage the production of sugar by means of slavery, and by that of increasing the infansons traffic in slaves.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not deny that it is possible that the consarep tion of the comforts and necessaries of life has been increased in consequence of the reduced price of corn; but that such in crease has been in anything like the p %Tor Lions stated by the Noble Lerd opposite, I say is contrary to the fact; and if I had the figures here before me I could ' show that they have been grossly exaggerated. Noble Lords opposite have talked of an increase of 10,000,000 quarters of corn in the consump tion of the people of this country. Now that calculation I believe is taken upon an average of years which includes some years of famine, in which of .course the imports had been considerably larger. The Duke of ARGYLL was here understood to say that the highest amount of corn consumed within the years quoted were 11,000,000 quarters. The Earl of DERBY—But even supposing that all that quantity has been consumed, you are not to suppose that that is a gross increase of the consumable produce of this country. In the first place, the average im portation before the year 1846 was, I think, 3,000,000, or 4,000,000 of quarters, and if I deducted these from the 10,000,0 00 alleged to have bee n consumed, will reduce it to 6,000,000 or 7,e0J,00) of quarters. I say that fromlbese 10,000,000 quarters, assuming this to be the quantity consumed upon the average in the years quoted. you must deduct something b e tween 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 of quarters which were imported the yea r before that i n which the alteration of the to law the amount of was made. That leaves an increase of consumption like like 65,, )00 000 not of w h e aten sour, but of corn of all me Whethr I belie d escr iptions. The Noble L ord asks one out of c ult ivati o n that 800,000 acres o f wheat l a nd had g in the face of the immense enclosures that have taken place. Now, in the first place, a large portion of those' Enclosure Acts's:lid nothing whatever towards adding to the-cultiva tion. They were the enclosure of lands generally which w ere held in common. Bat theyn ration now a s are just as much in culti • they were be fore those Acts were passed. Al t h o uch no doubt 800,000 acres had not gone out of culti vation, does the No ble Lord mean to say that there line been no diminution in - the amount of produce ' received fro m Ireland to this country ? Why, there has' beiti something like a diminution of 300,000 quarters of wheat within - last few' years of what was usually received. Ido the to say that there has been no in creas e • not mean e in the con sumption of corn; but I say that when yo u am n . ii ,...,. such a fact that there has been an additio ' 3- " 1 "'" erg powers of the people to any . . nto the consum tenag like quar ters, that you grossly exaggerate. ant '10,000,000 iocreased consumption purchased? The tit how is this lightly over this part of the Noble Lord passed very well for him, or for th e i ar subiect. It ma y be that we can afford to rec e i ve less ise propriet ors , , t o sa y b i the power of consumin g more— w n order to, aff or d th e mass es incomes. But ther e i s a l e shall still h ave suffi c ient lords and farmers — so that when class who are b o th land also suffer. . one suffers, tlle other must Now, what They are small proprietors is the condition `of that class? whom this loss falls with cultivating their own land, upon of this class have been a double weight. A large number that they so pressed upon by. our recent legis lation,cultiva- tors of the soil in hav e been utterly extinguished as cu- 1 : a refuge in other th is eountry, and, have been driveenseteo:eiet. the greatest satis f acti on I .contofeeee I t , h that the labouring classes , and I biker It abi b e amount of prosperity, and I should al enj "jag aco aer g h t would desire by be the last man e a portion of that any measure to deprive them, of ant' prosperit y. But undoubtedly the prespelitY of the labouring classes is wholly dependant upon the prosperity of the em ployer. If, then, you diminish the means of the employed, the labourer, sooner or later, will fail i n obtainingsmployineet, and on him ultimately the injury will f. 511. T ib i n ' L s g:lsi' no doubt, have not been diminished in proport , ;Wait the e burden reduced is P rice of corn; but that is merely "Y the landlords an d tenants, and at preaent sustained by the shoulders f h ~ o t e labourer. has not yet been cast upon the .. d the consequence is that This I believe to be the fact; an "derabl A the labourers are enjoYinf a alsotrue e aegree of in the perity.--(Hear, hear-) tis . t s stated, that in the three y earnpoth tenant and land course of the last two or lord have made extraortary exertions to improve the T st imulus of cultivation of And necessity has ope . And 40 a certain extent most wholesomely ratedupou t4en i t evertb delta with greet severity, oppres and advantageouslea li And I ha shea r .'and hardship. v47t , very great doubts whether h r in many co o, althoug g e!tt expen ture is undertaken by the great portion of theoutlay is not a loss to those glasses, • and the tenant, although at the present time Use probe advantageous to the labourer. Ido not deny but it in that in the course of the — lsst -- -few years - there has a great increase of ou r " articles of expor tation. been Now, I am not going to enter into the q uestion in reference to the discovery of gold in various places but of this I have no doubt, if it had not been for these great and increasing discoveries, and the large influx of gold into this country with rapidly increasing speed, you would have seen a different state of commercial affairs here than what you see now.—(Hear, hear.) And although it may be quite true that the amount of our imports his largely increased, as well as o ur exports, althougt may be true that the amount of our productions has greatly increased, I very much doubt, if we could look into the balance-sheets of our commercial men, we should see that increased amount of traffic of these exports and imports ac companied with a corresponding profit On the contrary, with the largest amount of trade almostever known, it has been less profitable to them during .the last few.years than in any period within their experience!, except in years of panic. As a proof of the prosperity of the country, the Noble Lords are fond of quoting statistical returns of the reduced amount of pauperism. The Noble Lord opposite commenced with the year 1848, and congratulated the country on the im mense reduction of pauperism since that period. Well, but is it fair to take the year 1848 as a starting calculations? In taking up this part of the argument we have had a vivid declamation from the Noble Earl who has just sat down. But that was a year of a most exceptionab!e character, in which all classes . 'almost were involved in absolut e ru i n. T hat was a year o f famine, so that the amount of pauperism then cann ot be fairly said to be a data upon which you lam a right to calculate .UTCI , _ --....._ 11:4(11f; lAJA itl tA) t I f) ! S :• Z