The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-28 00:00:00

donethis, and leaving formed their opinions upon a careful con sidevatimnof tbeargements of council and the evidence of wit nesses, ' they found thiir judgments overruled by a majority of Noble Lords, the greater part of whom bad not heard any portion of 'that evidence, or a single argument for or against the measure:'He - dill deeply regret to see such ' con• duct ons - the'pert'ef the tiobility of England. The - question was theel put, and the House divided, when there: appeared— - ; For bringing up 'the Report • Ag 'avast it es st . - , :• es - Majority The-Earl of ABERDEsF e N gave notice that to-morrow he should call, the attentionelefitheir Lordships to the terms of a Commission af.lnquiry. which had been lately issued respect ing the state - of the Church : ter Ireland. MUNICIPAL' CORPORATIONS BILL. The Order of the'lia.'y-that the Report on the Municipal Corporations Bill be - no*- reieiVed having been read, Nisceiint 'MELBOURtcIE rose and said—My Lords, in moving 'that this RePort lie'tiov'it received, I beg leave to guard myself riaoSt disibietly ' ifia most explicitly against being sup pose&to give an +T or any approbation whatsoever, to the - amenelrrientsivllich - your 'Lordships have thgught proper to intrOdnee: into 'this Bill ; - - aliriost all of them being, in my opinion, great" deteriorations of the Bill as originally brotaght Uri fi•Oittllie'll t oiise orCOrainons. I think your Lord ships hate beeitiViiita by an unreasonable fear of evils that are mit likeli - tb talcO'plice,,:and.that to these unsubstantial twill ydur tord§hik have 'applied most inefficient remedies. I think your Lordships have departed from the clear, from the "simple": frtiiii'illblitl4f, from the intelligible, and, I be liciVes frein'*?Vaft'end - the secure principle upon which this Bill 'Wes - fbtinefed ; - 'and - that, your Lordships have engaged yoitriehke in `4. 'complexity ,of regulations, and in an intricacy atlit'tt'vatraffbf 'Provisions Whicts.Will pot have the effect which your. LordshiVi - interill; and e . not : having the effect whleh yoilf LordShipl' intend, will have a prejudicial effect upon thole towns Akbeeatia nothing is .more certain than tltat'tbere eintibrbT'a provision of lass which is in itself in different, tut - that'if it does net produce - the benefit anticipated from it, 'int doessildenard against the evil against which it was int6ncletito glialPi i it is certain, to produee, other effects which vithse 'not anfictpited - by' thoee. who introduced it; and itialikeivise - attain that those effects Will be_ of a preju dlciaNtihire:' Ict the same time, considering the great im portan•-of thic:Bill, and the importance to the country that thit'ilkiiiki6r; iltotild be settled, if possible . ; considering, too, the' Weil fed —1 ingS'eiisting in the country upon , this sub jesta4f KiSieVW : tiluCh increeied, allow me to say, by the Added- aigttneille - cted Milliner in which the opposition to this measure has been made, and the alterations which have been introduced in it in your Lordships' House— considering, I say, all these important elements, I am not, for one, disposed, so far as my vote goes, to interpose any obstacle to these amendments receiving the mature and deliberate con sideration of the other House of Parliament. But while I say this, I must beg leave also to say that I cannot answer for any • support being given in that House to these amendments in tote ; or to any one of them ; but viewing as I do all the circum e 1 stances of the case, and considering the great attention which your Lordships have bestowed upon this Bill, I think it is right and proper that the Bill, with your Lordships' amendments, should be submitted to the mature and deliberate consideration of the House of Commons. It is not my intention to trouble your Lordships by going into the various questions arising out of the amendments which have been introduced—questions which have been already fully discussed. But undoubtedly, in bringing up this report, I' shall move to omit from the Bill many of those provisions which have been so introduced, and which I consider to be most objectionable ; in order that the Bill may be left in that form in which it originally stood, when brought up from the other House of Parliament. I shall move to omit the clause saving the rights of the freemen ; a clause which I consider to be peculiarly objectionable, and more particularly that clause which saves the right of freemen to be exempted from the payment of tolls ; an exemption which is felt and known to be a very great grievance in many of the boroughs in this country. I shall also move to omit the clause which provides for the appointment of aldermen for life ; and I shall likewise move to place the qualification clause in the same state in which it wag brought up from the house of Com, mono. This qualification clause is one of those to which I be lieve the few observations I have already made to your Lordships are peculiarly applicable. Ido not believe that the clause which your Lordships have introduced will at all tend to bring about the object which your Lordships have in view. It is unsuitable to the state of the towns to which it is applied. Property is no certain criterion either of talent or of respec tability ; hut, my Lords, I fear that the amendment which your Lordships have introduced, is no certain criterion even of property. It is a criterion of the most advantageous si tuations for trade in the towns—it is a criterion of those who may possess the larger warehouses in the towns—hut it is no criterion of property. It will exclude, as lam given to understand, many persons of property, while it will admit many who are of very different description. Some modi fication to that evil of this qualification has been introduced by an amendment moved by a Noble Friend of mine on the other side (the Earl of Devon). But I cannot pass this over without saying that that is an amendment which is liable to all the objections which exist against any euelitication. It i s an amendment which entirely t,tils in the efil et intended, while it will have other effects of a prejudicial character. It is nut, my Lords, effectual in itself for good, by excluding improper persons. It excludes only the honest and conscien tieus, while it admits those stile are fraudulent, and those who have no scruples to declare themselves to possess prb rerty, which they in fact do not possess. I will not take up your Lordship' time any further. I only wish, to state, that I shall move these an,endre , nt= on b, inging up the Re port ; and thet en taus clause wi.iel, aenoints Aldermen for life, I shall take the sense of the i louse. I now move your Lordships that the Report l br.:.::iit up. • Lord ELLENBOROT - tiil .4:11 that Noble'Lords on his side of the House had Leen tin , eeleast assailed by the repre hension of the Noble Viscount end hit colleagues. They had been told that they were mutilating this Bill, and by doing so were outraging the feelings of the people of England ; and they were further told, that, as the House of Lords, they were committing suicide by their conduct with respect to this Bill. But were they wrong, he asked, in hearing Counsel, in the first instance, against it? They were supported in doing so by a precedent as nearly in point as any precedent could be : be meant the case of hearing Counsel, by the House of Lords. against the Bill for abolishing heritable jurisdictions in Scot land. Counsel were then heard, although it was at a time when men's minds were in a most agitated state—it being soon after the Rebellion. Their Lordships had acted upon the same principle, and for the same reason—namely, because in matters of property it was the custom of their Lordships' House to hear ' Counsel, and it was the right of the subject to be heard. They likewise heard witnesses at the Bar against some cf the provi sions of the Bill. Could their Lordships have acted otherwise ? Did not those provisions materially affect property? By one of the clauses that property—not held in trust by the Corporation, hut which was theirs as much as the property of any individual was his—was taken from the Corporation, and transferred to another party. By another clause, property belonging to the freemen and to their heirs-male for ever was converted into a life-interest. All this was to be done without the consent of the individual, though in any other case their Lordships would require the consent of one-half or more. By...another clause leaseholders under the Corporations, upon lives renewable for ever, were to have their leases converted into leases at rack rents. Under these cumulative circumstances their Lordships were justified in hearing witnesses. They were told that they did so for the purpose of delay. It was not ; but it was for the purposes of justice. Their Lordships then proceeded to consider the Bill, and with much greater advantages than the House of Commons possessed. Many points had been cleared up which to the Commons were unknown. The effect of the evidence taken at the bar had been to do away the injustice in those clauses to which he bad referred; and their Lordships by common consent had struck out of the schedule many places to which it was considered the principles of the Bill ought not to be applied. Their Lordships then went into Committee, and they did right on that occasion also. They said they would not proceed one •tep till they had secured all the proprietory rights of the freemen, and had also secured to them the franchise which was given them by the Reform Bill. .. Where, my Lords, are these poor men to look for support, if they do not receive it here in this House, which is at once a House of Legislature and a great Court of Justice ? We are, in fact, the hereditary tribunal of the poor. It is our duty to look to their cause, especially in all cases affecting their pro perty—and in having secured their rights, we did only that which it was our duty to do." The Noble Lord then adverted to the amendment which took from the King in Council the power to determine the boundaries of the towns, and invested it in Commissioners ; and contended that in this also their Lordships had done well. Their Lordships also did right in empowering the revising - barristers to divide the towns into wards. Their Lordships bad not made any objection to the qualification, of the burgesses, as originally proposed by the Bill. The qualification they first introduced was more flexible perhaps than any other that could be devised, but when objections were taken to it, so anxious were they to avoid all difficulties arising out of that qualification, that they closed with the objection made by the Other side, and made the qualification more popular. It appeared to the Noble Lords by whom the amendments in the Bill had been effected, to be of the utmost importance to avoid the danger of a sud den, violent, and universal transition from one system to an other. These were the principal alterations which had been made in the Bill since it had been brought up to that House. They had likewise, he thought, wisely and correctly dikter mined that the magistrates in corporate towns should be no minated by the Crown, and that the provisions of the Bill affecting charities should be postponed till another 'year. They had not decided positively against any one of those pro visions, but in a wise and prudent spirit had determined to .take time to consider in what manner, and under what re strictions, an alteration of the law should be effected. What was the character of the Bill now that it had been amended? Was it a mutilated Bill ? Was it a Bill that it would not become the House of Commons to accept, and the people to receive with gratitude? They had for the future put an end entirely to the system of self-nomination, which was held to be so highly objectionable. They had removed the painful feel ing of perpetual exclusion from corporate offices, which must have rankled so strongly in the minds of men who knew that whatever their conduct, however meritorious, however de serving of admiration and respect. still dissenting from the Church they were disqualified from enjoying with their fellow citizens an equality of civil rights. They had adopted frankly 41**4 hesitation the constituency originally recommended , es tirtilifspi, op nders of the Bill. They had for the future isiatot, t", itlaceirtbernia tgernent and conduct of the municipal govern ._ • meiitOralk- I CoaDorate towns in the hands of persons who de rived their pow,. from the people. In short, they had adopted - fully and completely the whole principle of the Bill. Their Sr: - amendments bad borne only upon its details, and in every in '^ c s i p stance he thought they had shown good and sufficient reasons •1 -...;- " ( 4 :` . "-?...-,- , :••,,,--- .... • _ .. ..._ . 9.........:\ ( .)... • TH.E SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, AUGUST' 28; 1835. why those amendments should be adopted. In proposing and carrying these amendments they had, he thought, justly, poll tidy, and wisely, refused to give a character of vindictiveness to a measure which was intended to be one of conciliation.— ( Hear.) They had refused to make it a measure of spoliation and persecution. Early in the discussions upon this measure —even before it had been brought up to their Lordships' House —they were told that it must be passed ; and at the same time it viits very significantly intimated that by that House it could notbe passed, because it would destroy the interest of the Con servatives in every one of the towns in which the municipal go- vernment should be reformed. He believed all the apprelien- , , sions upon that point to be greatly exaggerated. When he had asked questions with respect to them, he had never received answers satisfactory to him, or showing that the ap prehensions were well founded. But this he felt sincerely, and with a perfect conviction of its truth, that the strength . . of their party existed in supplying defects where they were proved to 'exist, and in reforming abuses where they were proved to be disadvantageous to the people.—( Hear, hear.) They had no interest distinct from others. Their strength . rested on the establishment of good and quiet government everywhere, and in the satisfaction of the people with that government.—( Hear, bear.) No man could be more anxious than he was, that that House should act in accordance with the prevailing sentiments of the House of Commons. But it was often difficult to do so when measures were proposed to the House of Commons, not because they were in accordance with the feelings of both Houses, but because they were ac ceptable to the feelings of an extreme party in one House.— (Cheers.) When that was done, it was difficult indeed for the House of Lords to do its duty, and at the same time to conform to the wishes of the other branch of the Legislature. —(Hear, hear.) He knew not why the House of Commons should refuse to accept the Bill pis it then stood. It was alto gether in accordance with the principles of the Bill that had been sent up to them. - _ _ Lord HOLLAND said when this Bill was brought from the other House of Parliament, it embodied a simple, plain and intelligible principle, and professed to have a two-fold object—first, to secure quiet and good government to the towns and cities of England and 'Vales; second, to satisfy the inhabitants of those cities and towns that their affairs were henceforward likely to be duly, honestly, and judiciously ad ministered. The means by which it was originally attempted to attain these ends appeared to him to be these—by granting to the inhabitant rate-payers the right of electing those who were to administer their local affairs, and by giving them a responsible instead'of an irresponsible Government. The No ble I4ord who bad just sat down had attempted to give them a description of the principle and details of the fill they had then before them ; but what a change was there between the Bill as it then stood, and the Bill which was brought up to them from the House of Commons ! Look now at the Bill, and see the difference. Every one of the principles originally inrosved in the Bill had either been tampered with or actually subverted and destroyed. It was true that there was one part of it preserved. They had preserved the form and semblance of pcpular representation, but all the advantages that could possibly attend popular representation had been carefully lopped off. The Noble Lord (Ellenborough), begging the question, said that he and his friends, by the course they had taken, had secured the approbation and affection of the inha bitants of the towns to which these amendments applied. He thought that the Noble Lord was mistaken, and that those who were dissatisfied before were more likely to be dissatisfied and discontented now. He (Lord Holland) held the qualifi cation clause, and the clause continuing certain offices for life, to be most objectionable. With respect to the first, he must acknowledge that the evils of the qualification, or rather of the disqualification (as he should presently show it to be) had in some degree been mitigated and corrected by the addi tional amendment which had been appended by the Noble and Leattned Earl. The Noble Lord had himself admitted that all pecnniary qualifications had hitherto proved utterly inefficaci ous. Upon what ground then, did he introduce such a quali fication into the present Bill. Their Lordships must recollect that it was the right of every elector to be himself deemed eligible to fill the office to which he elected another, unless that right were specifically taken away from him by statute. That principle had been distinctly laid down by Lord Thurlow and Mr. Fox, in the case of Mr. Horne Toblte. What was the effect of the clause introduced into this Bill ? To dis qualify five-sixths of the electors in every corporate town in the kingdom. Such a proposition as that had never before beer submitted to a deliberate assembly in that ktugdom. He objected in the next place to those alterations which made aldermen and town-clerks, aldermen and town-clerks for These alterations had completely cltanged the character and principle of the Bill as sent up to them from the House of Commons ; and he was surprised to hear the Noble Lord say that every thing they had done was in strict consistel cy with the principle of the Bill. With the exception of the form of popular elections there was really nothing else left. He (Lord Holland) was anxious, therefore, to protest against what, the Noble Lord called the amendments which had been effet ted by the other side of the House. He did not wish to go through the whole of them, or to take up the gauntlet which the Noble Lord had throes down, with respect to what he called a minor amendment—he meant that relating to the right of Dissenters to vote on the distribution of Church patronage. Being upon Ids lees, however, he wished to put one riestion to the Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst), in refei cnce to that amendment. He knew the Noble and Learned Lord to be a great artist in these matters, hut, when the - Noble and Learned Lord said, in the clause in ques tion, that no person lend , ' vote for the distribution of the Church patronage vested in the hands of the Corporations ex cept those who were members of the Church of England, be begged to ask the Noble and Learned Lord, who was a member of the Church of England, what was the Noble and Learned Lord's / definition of a member of the Church of England? Was it a man who had signed the 39 Ar ticles? Did the Noble and Learned Lord mean that in every instance before a man voted he should be asked whe ther he had signed the 39 Articles? If that question were put to every layman he believed the boasted number of the members of the Church of England would be found to be very much diminished. It had fallen to his lot to know many very pious and serious members of the Church of Eng land who would not sign the Thirty-nine Articles. It should be remembered that in signing the Thirty-nine Ar ticles a man sign-d not only the Articles themselves, but the Athanasian Creed and the Homilies. Now he had no hesitation in saying, though a sincere member of the Esta blished Church. that neither of those things would he sign ; nor did he think that any lawyer could sign the Homily of Obedience. He contended, therefore, that subscription to the Thi, ty-nine Articles did not accurately define the member of the Established Church. Then how did the Noble and Learned Lord propose to find him out ? What test had he ? If be said that it should consist in attending divine service, then they fell back at once to all the old acts of persecution. He rhould like to hear the Noble and Learned Lord explain himself upon the point. Lord LYNDHURST was extremely desirous, with respect to the clause to which the Noble Baron bad alluded, to fortify himself with an authority for which he conceived the Noble Baron would feel a deep respect. He would first read the words, and then state the authority. " I can state with the greatest certainty that the Dissenters of England do not as pire to any of the patronage of the Church, but are ready to follow the example set them by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and to agree that Church patronage should remain in the hands of those to whom it particularly belonged—the members of the Established Church." On the same occasion another person made use of these words These are livings in the gift of certain Corporations, and under this Bill those livings may be disposed of by the members of a Church to which they are not attached. Now, I belong to a certain per suasion in Ireland, which never had a title to share in the gift of such advowsona ; and of this we do not complain. I think that the power of making these nominations should be given to the members of the Established Church." He thought the Noble Baron would admit that these authorities were entitled to some weight, when he stated that the first was a Dissenter —the Hon. Member for Leeds; and the other, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin. Lord HOLLAND said that the Noble and Learned" Lord had entirely mistaken his question. He did not contend that it wee absolutely right that a man professing one religion should bestow a benefice upon a man professing another ; but he seid that in an act of Parliament in which they laid down the maxim that no man should vote upon a particular subject, except members of the Church of England—the lawyer who laid down that maxim was bound to show that he had some legal means of determining who was a member of the Church of England and who was not. The very mention of the name of Mr. O'Connell seemed to divest the Noble Lords opposite Of all power of understanding. Did the Noble and Learned Lorci suppose that Mr O'Connell, for whose great talents and some of whose virtues, as far as he knew him, he bad a high respect—( Hear, hear )—Noble Lords might cheer, but he could not help saying that the manner in which Mr. - O'Con nell's name was received in that House was calculated to do him very little harm. He still wished the Noble and Learned Lord to answer the question he bad put to him. Tne Earl of HA DDINGTON would not enter, with the Noble Baron who had just sat down, into any disdussion as to the character, the talent, or the virtues of Mr. O'Connell, nor would he attempt to counteract the effect of those pane gyrics which he bad thought fit to pronounce on the great Uitator of Ireland—the great apostle .of the repeal of the nion ; but he felt himself entitled to use the authority of that Honourable and Learned Gentleman, and also of the Honourable Member for Leeds, in support of the 'clause which provided that the church patronage vested in corpora tions should be distributed by members of the Church alone. His Noble Friend thought the clause not sufficiently strin gent. He (Lord Haddington) was satisfied that it was suffi ciently stringent. If an individual who was notoriously a Dissenter offered himself, his notoriety would be sufficient to prevent his voting. If he declared that he was a Dissenter, the clause would prevent his voting. His Noble Friend had asserted that all who paid rates should have votes in the boroughs for members of the town-council. If that were a just proposition, then the Reform Act was still unjust. Their Lordships had left the qualification of voters as it came from the House of Commons. His Noble Friend asserted that the Bill, as it stood, would do nothing. Of what was it that the people complained? That they had no influence in the elec tion of the magistrates, and' that the present system in corpo rate towns was a system of self-election which ought to be put on end to. Now he would confidently ask their Lord ships if the system of self-election in corporate towns was nct as completely put an end to by the Bill as it then stood, as it was by the Bill when it was sent up by the House of Com mons to their Lordships? All rate-payers were to vote. One-third of the town-council was to go out every year, so that ;here Would be an annual and a popular election. But his Noble Friend said, that although they had left popular election, they had taken away everything which could render popular election valuable. His Noble Friend main tained that the members of the to”-council ought not to be required to possess any qualification ; for that those who had a right to vote for the election of others, had a right to be elected themselves. Was that assertion made in Eng- land? V Was not qualification now necessary by law in many cases ? Were not Members of the House of Commons re- quired to be qualified in a particular manner? There was no thing new in the principle of qualification which had been in troduced into the Bill; for it was according to the strictest analogy with the qualifications he had alluded to. His Noble Friend exclaimed, " Don't talk to me about qualification ; this is disqualification." But was not all qualification in that point of view, disqualification? Did it not necessarily exclude per sons who were not qualified? But his Noble Friend was of opinion that their Lordships had neutralised all the benefits which might otherwise have been derived from the Bill; for that a fourth part of the town-council were to retain their si tuations for life. But what were the objects of this provision ? Stability, peace, the preservation of good feelings. A town council entirely and annually elected, by the rate-payers out of the rate-payers, would form a republic so democratical and turbulent, that most injurious consequences must flow from its establishment. Lord DENMAN felt it to be his duty to state, as fully and fairly as circumstances would allow him, bis opinions on the Bill as it came from the House of Commons, and as it now stood. In the first place, however, he must express bis satisfaction that with whatever angry feelings the issuing of a commission to inquire into the Municipal •Corporations had been originally treated, those feelings had subsided ; and it was now generally allowed to be idle to doubt the validity o f that commission. In fact, recollecting that shadier commis sions had frequently been issued during the last century, to say that the commission in question was invalid, or that it ought to be treated with contempt, appeared to him to be so disrespectful towards the Crown, and so obstructive of all useful inquiries, that he felt happy in the conviction that he only repeated the universal opinion when .he said that such sentiments were no longer entertained. He felt happy in this conviction, because he really did think that if encourage ment were given to an opposition to such a commission, the injurious operation that might take place with reference to inquiries that any future Government might find it expe dient to institute, would be lamentable and melancholy. The second topic on which he would touch was the character of the commissioners themselves. And here he must say, that in the situation which he had the honour to hold, and which gave him an opportunity of knowing those gentlemen, the observations which had been made upon them had given him the greatest pain. These observations were entirely un founded. He had the honour of knowing many of those gentlemen intimately, and others from their practice at the bar. They had been described as entertaining extreme opi nions on political subjects. Such an imputation was more applicable to the Noble and Learned person by whom it had been made. For that Noble and Learned Lord he had a great respect ; he was indebted to him personally for a long succession of kindnesses ; if it was a calumny to de clare that he had changed his opinions on such subjects, he (Lord Denman) could only declare that he uttered it with perfect good faith, and that be believed that it was the perfect conviction of all who knew that Noble and Learned Lord. He did not mean to say any thing disparaging of 'that Noble and Learned Lord, but ho must observe that it was very hard upon members of the bar to be so warmly attacked in a quarter in which they had a right to expect protection and favour. The Commissioners were men of learning, they were men of science, they were men of consis tent opinions, they were men of honourable sentiments, who had undertaken the duty entrustedito them for the purpose, and with the determination of performing it honestly, to their King and country ; and who, he in conscience believed, had 'so performed it. He did not wish to trespass longer upon their Lordships, on this part of the subject, or he should be desirous to refer more particularly to some of the individuals of whom the Commission was composed. Many of them he knew to be distinguished by practical good sense ; they were men whose favourable opinion, whether in public, or in private, or professionally, every one who was acquainted with them must be proud to possess. He did not know all the gentlemen in question, but he had every as:ason to believe that a better selection it would have been impossible to make. The only practical objection, that bad been made to them was the danger that their supposed political opinions would warp their judg ments. On their part, he felt justified in repelling the impu tation as totally unfounded. He would proceed to say a few words on the course which had been pursued by their Lord ships in calling counsel to the bar, and afterwards in examining witnesses. He must take the liberty (with the greatest hu mility) to declare that, in his opinion, it was the most unfor tunate precedent that could possibly be set. Where private property was attacked, those who a ere the possessors of that property were entitled to send counsel to the bar in order to defend their rights. But the question here was, was the mea ure under their Lordships' consideration a Bill of Pains and Penalties, or a Bill for the improvement and amendment of important institutions? Convince him that it was the first, and he would stop immediately, and vote for the rejection of the measure. If it were a Bill of Pains and Penalties, their Lordships ought not only to reject the clauses, but to repu diate the principle. If the Report of the Commissioners (minute parts of which had been attacked, although the great body of it remained unassailed) did not justify their Lord ships in adopting the Bill as a measure of national im provement, he called upon them at once to throw it out.— (Hear, hear.) But it was evident that the object . of the Bill was to improve the condition of the people, by reforming ,those local governments which more immediately touched them and their interests. It was not confined to one part of the kingdom ; it extended over the whole. It had refe rence to a state of things so notorious, that even those who did not rely upon the evidence on which the Commission ers founded their Report, still felt it to be their duty to sup port the Bill. And what was the quality of the evidence heard at their Lordship's bar fcr the purpose of weakening the Report? It amounted to an opinion expressed by the town-clerks of the several corporations, that the Commission ers, in their investigations, had paid more attention to those who took one side of the question, than to those who took the other - side of it. 'phis had been repeated so many times, that much valuable time bad been lost, both to their Lordships and to the sailors at their Lordship's bar. He should like to see the essence of the evidence at their Lordship's bar. Let it be recollected that it was all ex parte : and although it was on oath, surely ex parte evidence was not enough. Was it possible-to suppose for a moment that such ea idence as that was a ground on which the House of Lords could proceed to legislate? All that was done was to take particular portions of the Report, and to ask if they were incorrect. But unless their Lordships had called in more witnesses, and bad heard the other side,of the question, all such examination was ut terly worthless. The fact was, and it appeared to him to be clearly demonstrable, that nothing but delay had been the ob ject in view; He would proceed to make one or two observa tions on the alterations which had been made in the Bill since its entrance into their Lordships' House. And first with respect to the rights of freemen. If the preservation of these rights were consistent with the object of the Bill, they ought to be secured. But he confessed that he entertained a strong opinion on that point. When the Reform Bill was brought forward, it was his decided opinion, knowing that, generally speaking, the greatest corruption prevailed among the free men, that they should be disqualified. And he was persuaded that retaining the rights of freemen in the Bill under their Lordships' consideration, would be to create a constant source of irritation and animosity, and bad feeling, in every corporate town in the kingdom. To the alteration in the Bill, with re spect to wards, he decidedly objected. If it were ultimately adopted, at least without the introduction of a minimum as to the number of votes, the elections could not be expected to be pure. One alteration for the better had certainly been intro duced into the Bill. It deprived any one convicted of bribery of the privilege of voting, or of any other privilege in the borough. He wished the principle to be extended further '• he wished it to be enacted that any man who accepted a bribe should be subjaht to similar deprivation in every other borough. With respect to the question of qualification, it had been treated so ably and so fully by his Noble Friend, that it was not neces sary for him to enter upon it. The only argument in favour of the provision respecting it was founded on its inefficiency and imbecility. Indeed, so inefficient and so imbecile was it, that perhaps the friends of the Bill would do well not to reject it, were it not that under any circumstances it was not desirable to esta blish an evil principle in legislation. And what security was there that the required 4ualification would actually exist ? None but the oaths of the parties themselves. Their Lordships had in various cases seen the danger and difficulty of such a prin ciple. It was one also which would open the door to endless quarrel and litigation. Then as to the change which had been made in the Bill, providing that aldermen should be elected for life, and that those who were at present in possession of that office should continue during life to retain it. Why it was asserted by the witnesses who had been called to their Lord ships' bar, that there was no discontent among the inhabitants of the various Corporate towns. Now, if that were the case, the people, who were, of course, the best judges of their own interests, would, if they were satisfied with their existing offi cers, keep them in at every election. The same was the case with reference to the town-clerks. Having stated all these opinions on the alterations _which had been made by their Lordships in this Bill, he would go on to say that, after all, if lie compared the Bill as it now stood, with the existing law, it would be a great improvement on that law. But when it was considered that the measure went to create rights, and to establish principles, it was surely desirable that those rights and principles should be as perfect and as fully acted upon as possible. Their Lordships admitted the principle that, after the first election, all the holders of the offices in question should be liable to quit them. They did not do 'this on any allegation of particular delinquency, but on the ground of the notoriety of the cafe : on the universal conviction that in all the Corporate boroughs of the land it was fit that such a principle should be adopted. Now was it wise, was it prudent on the part of their Lordships —espe cially looking at all the circumstances of the case, looking at the state of public feeling—having . admitted the principle, not to adopt the best means of carrying it into effect, and of rendering it extensively beneficial ? Was it not a melancholy thing that the value of a good principle should be thus lost? That the grace of a boon which would otherwise be received by those upon whom it was conferred with thanks, should be sacrificed to a niggardly and distrustful policy ? He really should be glad to hear the qualification and other clauses made more palatable to the general taste. It had been asserted that they were sacrifices to the extreme party in the other House of Parliament. Now lie believed that there had been but one division in that other House upon the measure ; and that it had been universally admitted in that other House that the principle of the measure was good. He took it for granted that there would be an endeavour to compromise the matter ; and that there would be a meeting of a deputation from each House with respect to it. If so, he hoped that every gentleman who might be delegated by the House of Commons would be animated with an eager and sipcere desire to do justice to their Lordships' motives, and to accede to such propositions as might appear to them reasonable. And he implored such of their Lordships as might be appointed to meet the Members of the House of Commons on the subject to cherish a similar spirit ; to look at the great objects contemplated by the measure, and to do what they felt they might in justice do, to forward those objects. It was very easy to conceive that there might he extreme parties on both sides of the question ; and that if those parties were to push thei r diff ere nces to the utmost, that a feeling of animosity might be excited against their Lordships, of which he did not believe that they were at present the ob ject. On the contrary, he believed that they enjoyed the confidence and respect of the great body of the people ; ' although it might be regretted that they had not taken the side of the people on the great popular questions which had for some years been agitated in Parliament. He trusted that all parties would think of nothing but conciliation ; he hoped that they would be inspired with a sincere desire to do all the practical good which it was possible to effect. He trusted also that their Lordships would pardon the perhaps rather strong manner in which he had expressed his wishes— it had arisen simply from the conviction of his own mind, that a course such as that which he had recommended was necessary to the welfare and safety of the State ; and that, so feeling, he should have been trifling with their Lorclkhips if he had not so said.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Lord LYNDHURST began by observing, that he should abstain from entering on any discussion of the principles or details of the measure, having already had full opportunity of delivering his sentiments on these grounds. He now felt him self, however, imperiously called on to address some few ob servations to their Lordships in his justification against the charges which had been pteferred against him by his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Denman.) He was sure that many of those charges would not have been alleged against him by his Noble and Learned Friend, had he been present during the progress of the measure in that House, because he might appeal to their Lordships whether he had not over and over again stated, that as far as the principles and opinions of the members of the Commission were concerned, he made no matter of complaint against them. God forbid that in this country every man should not be at liberty to entertain without reproach those opinions which coincided with, and conformed to, his own judgment. He had repeatedly stated that be made no ground of charge against the Commissioners on this head. He had, when alluding to the commission, taken occa sion to say, that with many of its members ho was personally acquainted, and the result was, that he could bear his testimony to their being, not only men of integrity and.honour, but men of learning in their profession. He appealed to their Lord ships' recollection whether he had not made that statement.— ( Hear.) But he had certainly stated, as a matter of charge against his Majesty's Government, that they had selected, in the formation of that commission, gentlemen of one class of opinions, and one class of opinions only.—( Loud cries of hear.) Again, with regard to another part of the accusation which his Noble and Learned Friend had preferred against him—( Hear)—he had stated that he preferred charges against the Commissioners, not arising out of any general cir cumstances, but for misconduct in the discharge of the duties imposed on them. Now, he begged to say, in answer to that accusation, that he made no charge whatever against the conduct of alsingle Commissioner, except what was founded on the evidence which was taken at their Lordships' bar.— ( Hear.) He defied any Noble Lord or any individual what ever to accuse him justly of having, thrown out any un founded charge—of having made any charge which he was not warranted in making, and which it was not his duty to make, as arising out of the evidence taken before their Lord ships.—( Hear, hear.) They found in the Report of those Commissioners charges of the most serious nature preferred against individuals and public bodies. Then came to their Lordships' bar petitioners complaining of those charges, stating that they had not been guilty of the offences alleged against them—that their conduct was correct, and that they were desi rous of being heard in opposition to those allegations which bad been made concerning them. How were we, then, to proceed ? There was none of the evidence taken by those Commissioners laid before us.—( Hear, hear.) He called on the Noble Viscount (Melbourne) to lay all the evidence upon which the Reports were founded, on the table of the House. He declined doing so, and it was withheld.—( Cheers.) De sirous of knowing whether the evidence really supported the charges, and the conclusions laid down by the Commissioners, as we could not obtain that evidence itself, we thought it righta to hear those persons who were accused in the face of the country of the gravest and most serious offences. Various witnesses were accordingly examined; they exceeded thirty in number he believed; their Lordships heard their evidence, and the manner in which it was given, and he asked whether they did not in every instance, acquit the persons of the charges which were preferred against them ? In any state ment which he had made with reference to the Commissioners, be had uniformly appealed to the evidence given by the wit nesses at their Lordships' bar; and he would have neglected his duty if he had not pointed out the manner in which the charges contained in the Report of the Commissioners were met and overact, although in doing so he might have indirectly reflected on the conduct of the Commissioners, by whom these charges were made.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend had alluded to opinions which he stated were formerly entertained by him, as a matter of accusation against him ; but he had not condescended to adduce a single fact in support of his charge. I have nothing, therefore (continued the Noble and Learned Lord) to meet.—( Hear, hear.) I do recollect, however, that in the other Hens& of 'Parliament my Noble and Learned Friend did, during my absence, bring a charge against me of a somewhat similar nature to that which be has to-night preferred; and (if I can rely on the accu racy of those who report the proceedings of that House) the only fact which he brought forward in confirmation of his statement was, that I supported some opinion of Sir Samuel Romilly. I suppose he alluded (for not being present I cannot assert positively what was his meaning) to my having supported the views of Sir S. Romilly with respect to the amelioration of the criminal code. Now the fact was, I sup ported some of the attempts which that learned individual made to ameliorate the criminal code—l opposed other at tempts of his for the same object. That, however, was the only direct charge which my Noble and Learned Friend then alleged against me with reference to the general accusations which he preferred. When a fact is stated, I know how to meet it : when any particular opinion is imputed, I know how to rebut it ; but whilst my Noble and Learned Friend throws his arrows in the dark, I know not what to combat. ( Hear.) I have been on terms of intimacy with my Noble and Learned Friend for a lorg period; I went the same circuit with him; I have been engaged in conversation with him at different times ; and if he speaks of a period of 20 years past, I can only say that I am unable to recall to my recollection the particular opinions which I might halve en tertained or expressed with reference to political measures; but I can assert that I never belonged to any party or so ciety whatever.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the absence of any specific facts, I am driven to the conjecture that my Noble and Learned Friend alluded to my conduct at the time Lord Sidmouth was at the head of the Government ; during that time I had some connection with some persons in that Govern ment • and my disposition and wish were so far from thwarting (as the Noble and Learned Lord would seem to imply) that I was desirous to support the course of that particular govern ment. I then never embarked in politics ; I did not belong to any society or party ; and I never wrote a political article on either side of any question which might then have been agitated. This was my conduct until I came into the other House of Parliament, now twenty years ago. From that pe riod my life has been before the public ; my course has been direct and straightforward.—( Hear, hear.) I have always belonged to the same party, and I have entertained the same opinions from that time to the present.—( Renewed cheers ) Previously to that time (that of the Noble and Learned Lord's entrance into Parliament) what expressions I uttered on indi vidual measures it is impossible for me to state, but I can un hesitatingly aver that I belonged to no party, and that I was attached neither to the Whigs nor to the Tories, nor, as my Noble and Learned Friend would'insinuate, to the Radicals.— ( Hear, hear.) This is a plain exposition of my political life. My Noble and Learned Friend, alluding to discussions on measures more than twenty years ago, states no fact, no opi nion, or anything in favour of the deductions which he has now drawn. I beg pardon for trespassing on your Lordships' attention for so long a time in a matter purely personal. I adhere to the intention which I expressed at the outset of my observations, of not going into any discussion of this measure or its details, having heretofore fully availed myself of the op portunities which were presented for that purpose.—( Hear. ) Lord DENMAN—If my Noble and Learned Friend has understood me as having alluded to certain opinions which he has been supposed to entertain with a view of conveying a calumny against him, I can only say that it is a calumny which has often been repeated, which I stated, believing it to be true, and which I should now believe to be true, were it not for the assertion of my Noble and Learned Friend. And really I feel somewhat astonished that when the question is as to what really were the political sentiments of my Noble and Learned Friend, he should plead forgetfulness with reference to the opinions which he entertained, twenty years ago undoubtedly, but still when he was of the mature age of thirty.—( Hear, hear.) Up to the period that he came into Parliament, the universal ims pression of those who lived on terms of close intimacy with m y Noble and Learned Friend was, that his opinions were (not with reference to any one particular measure or any one occa sion) generally and unequivocally what would now be called liberal.—( Hear, hear.) Those opinions were not uttered merely in the presence of those who were intimate with him, or in the course of private conversation, but they were avowed rather as if my Noble and Learned Friend felt a pride in en tertaining and avowing them.—( Hear, bear.) And I will take the liberty of telling my Noble and Learned Friend that though his great talents must have ultimately secured to him the rank which he holds, yet that he undoubtedly owed his first ad vancement to his devotion to those who entertained the most liberal opinions in politics.--( Hear, hear.) With re gard to my Noble and Learned Friend's opinions respecting Lord Sidmouth's Administration, it was the conviction, I ven ture to say, amongst those who knew him best, that he was favourable to the sentiments of the Opposition of that period. I beg to be understood as standing corrected in that opinion ; and I shall only therefore remind my Noble and Learned Friend that stronger proof of his being a Whig, or more than a Whig, could be adduced with respect to himself than as to those Commissioners against whom my Noble and Learned Friend has really "scattered his arrows" in the dank.— ( Hear, hear.) Lord LYNDHURST—I don't understand what my Noble and Learned Friend means by the term " liberal opinions," when he gys that I owed my political advancement to those who professed them. Up to the time of my entering Parlia ment I was engaged in my profession, and I had no object out of it. I received a note from Lord Liverpool, asking me to call on him. I went to him, and was quite surprised when he asked me if I had any objection to enter Parliament. I re quired some time to consider, and the result was, that I con , sen ted and went into Parliament. That was my first Mbar- kation upon the stormy sea of politics—one very uncongenial to my feelings—very foreign to my habits, and on which I am engaged on this occasion purely accidentally.—(Hear.) Lord DE N NIAN—If I said that my Noble and Learned Friend owed his advancement in political life to his coinciding with those who entertained liberal opinions, I meant to allude to his professional advancement. My memory, however, de ceives me very much if those who encouraged his rising talents and stimulated his early and constant attention to his profes sional pursuits were not inclined to do so by their impression of his liberal opinions in polities.—( Hear, hear.) Lord L YND HU R ST—I was never engaged but in one political defence. That was on the trial of Watson. On that occasion Sir Charles Wetherell called on me as a com mon law lawyer, and asked me if I would agree to join him in the conduct of that defence. After taking a short time to consider, I answered that I would. Now that is the real his tory of that transaction.—( Hear, and cheers.) Lord RADNOR observed that the Noble and Learned Lord ( Lyndhurst) could not say that he had brought no ac cusation, except what was founded on the evidence taken at their Lordship's bar, against the Commissioners, for be called them the bought accusers of the Corporations. On what was the report of these Commissioners to be condemned ? On ex parte evidence, on which, if the Noble and Learned Lord was sitting in a court of justice, he would not have hanged a cat.—( Hear, and laughter.) Now, he would just give two in stances of that evidence, with a view to show how loth they should be to attach any weight to them. One of the witnesses from Shrewsbury had stated that Dissenters were at that school taught the prayer-book of the Established Church, and obliged to gO to church. Now he bad received a letter from Dr. Butler, stating that there was not the slightest foundation for such an assertion.—( Hear, hear.) It had been stated also that the exhibitions were confined to burgesses. It happened that there were only seven which were confined to burgesses, and there were nine exhibitions, four scholarships, and one fellowship, which were not confined to burgesses.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Earl opposite had de nounced the principle that taxation and representation should be coeval. It was no doubt true that there were some ex . e;ptions to that rule ; but exceptio probat regulant.—( Hear.; Certain-he was that the inhabitants_ of the towns would fee' it to be a monstrous grievance that they were deprived of their fair and legitimate control over the affairs of the place which they inhabited, and where whatever property they might have was deposited.—( Hear, hear.) Lord A S HBURTON could not help observing that the Noble and Learned Lord (Denman) had, without having at tended to the course of their proceedings, introduced a degree of violence and personality into the debate of that evening, of which, since he had the honour of a seat in that House, he had seen no example.—( Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord had directed his attack not only against nothing which was under discussion that night, but against opinions said to have been entertained twenty years ago, and the ground-work of the attack was that his Noble and Learned Friend was se lected by Lord Liverpool (doubtless with democratic inten tions) for a vacancy in Parliament, and that be was associated with that atrocious Radical, Sir Charles Wetherell, in his de fence of Watson.—( Hear, arid laughter.) He deprecated the practice of recurring to one's early life with a view of charging an inconsistency of opinion. He bad himself en tered political life with liberal views, but never with extreme ones ; and if his opinions bad undergone a change of late, it was because he had at the outset of his career much less appre hension of the dangers of democracy than he entertained at pre sent.—( Hear, bear, from the Opposition.) The Noble and Learned Lord said that when this measure came from the Commons it presented itself in " beautiful simplicity." He would not charge the Noble and Learned Lord with en tertaining extreme opinions ; but his assertion respecting this measure, as it came from the Commons was a stronger proof that be entertained extreme opinions than any which he had brought against his Noble and Learned Friend. If it were " simplicity," it was a democratic simplicity, which was calculated to establish as levelling a democracy as ever existed—( Hear)—and one which was totally inconsistent with the monarchical or mixed form of Government in this country.—( Hear.) Though evils belonged to'all systems of Government—monarchy, oligarchy, and democracy—a large share might be assigned to democracy; and the concessions which were made to the latter power under this Bill were ab solutely incompatible with any power on the part of the Crown. The measure as amended was not, on the whole, satisfactory to him, and if the House of Commons did not pass it in that shape, he should feel no disappointment. He admitted fully that a cordial co-operatiott with that House was desirable, and to attain it he should be willing to make considerable sacri fices ; but in reference to the present measure he should not be grieved if they were not to accept it ; and if thus the forma tion of a complete municipal constitution for the country , —a matter which was one of the greatest importance that Par liament.could enter into—were put off for another year. The proposition which ought to be made to Parliament for that purpose should be one of a far more complete and better consi dered nature than that which had been submitted to it. The establishment of new Corporations was a subject which ought to be legislated upon with more precision than the Bill had proposed ; the power, indeed, which it was to give to the Crown to create them at its own discretion was a mon strous one. Moreover, it should be borne in mind that the present Bill in no manner touched the Corporation of London, which possessed more exclusive privileges of an objectionable nature than those other Corporations of small towns which were affected by it. The Bill allowed the greater nuisance —for nuisance it really was—to remain, either because its promoters were afraid to touch that Corporation, or be cause they had been obliged to bring forward their mea sure crude and undigested, in their eager hurry to propound some plan of so-called reform, for the purpose of keeping the movement alive. Lord BROUGHAM said that this subject bad been so often debated by their Lordships, and he had so frequently addressed them upon it, that he did riot now intend to tres pass upon their patience by again entering into it. He should not have risen but for some of the observations of his Noble Friend who had just sat down. His Noble and Learned Friend then upon the Woolsack (Lord Denman) had been brought into some little conflict with another Noble and Learned Friend of his (Lord Lyndhurst), in consequence of some misunderstanding. In that conflict be (Lord Brougham) should have deemed it improper, as it would have been pain ful, to interfere, if his Noble Friend—who had as little to do with it as he himself—had not thought fit to dash in where he had been afraid to tread.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack had been charged by his Noble Friend with has ing introduced personality into the discussion, as if he had volunteered a gratuitous attack on his Noble and Learned Friend opposite. His Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack seemed to him to have had one purpose, and one only, in view ; he learned that in his absence a denial of a very peremptory nature had been given to certain statements of facts, having reference to some supposed opinions of his Noble and Learned Friend opposite at a previous period, arid that those statements had been declared to be a calumny—that is to say, not only injurious but false. His Noble and Learned Friend upon the Woolsack had therefore said—acting not upon the offensive but entirely upon the defensive—that be had made those statements, believing them, in his conscience, to be true ; and certainly no man at all acquainted with his Noble and Learned Friend could doubt for one moment that he would have stated anything as true which he did not be lieve. His Noble Friend opposite bad certainly no right to rush in and interfere ; but perhaps he had thought that it might be his turn to be next attacked, as it was called. With reference, now, to the measure itself, his Noble Friend had characterized it as being, in its original state, fraught with the spirit of • pure and levelling democracy—but it had, he said, by the changes introduced into it, been rendered somewhat safer. On the first position he was entirely 'at issuo with his Noble Friend. He denied that it was a measure of pure and levelling democracy. If universal suffrage, without _qualification for the electors or the elected, had been made the groundwork of a new Parliamentary constitution—if the constitution of the Peers had been levelled—if only one House of Parliament, so chosen upon universal suffrage, had been left to remain, then, undoubtedly, he could have seen and la mented that bugbear which scared and terrified the affrighted, and, as he thought, unsound constitution of his Noble Friend. His Noble Friend, however, forgot the extreme difference be tween the case which he fancied and that which was now be. fore the House, namely—the formation of a system for meet ing the question of how best to manage the parish .vestry business of Municipal Corporations.—( Hear, hear, hear.) How the management of the business of actual parish vestries had proceeded upon similar principles to those here proposed, every one here well knew. The pa rish affairs had improved greatly—the amount of money raised had been much reduced; in short the economy of the parish had been consulted almost beyond the most sanguine expecta tions of those by whom the system had been framed. Then, secondly, his Noble Friend said that the evils of that pure and levelling democracy had been remedied by the altera tions introduced into the Bill. Now if there were one part of the measure approaching more nearly to pure and levelling democracy than another, it was that which allowed suffrage without qualification—beyond, at least, the payment of rates. Again, his Noble Friend would say that the amenders of the Bill had provided checks and securities ; and his principal check was one which, he himself admitted, would lose its force from year to year, namely, the retention of the aldermen during the period of transition, as it was called, from the old to the new constitution. By that worst part of all those bad changes, every one of the corporations would have in them a body amounting to one-fourth of their number—wholly irre movable—filled with the old self-elected leaven—and who being tainted with all the habits which the self-electing prac tice had fixed in them, would perpetuate the worst abuses which had arisen from it in the worst times. The Noble arid Learned Lord then alluded to the accusation made against the Commissioners, of having brought charges against corpo rations and individuals connected with them. They had never charged corporations or corporators—neither man nor thing, without calling upon the persons concerned to come forward, and allowing them to hear and examine the witnesses from whom the allegation proceeded.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Would any Noble Lord rise in his place, and give him the name of any corporation or corporator in whose case an accusation had been made, without all the parties affected by it being allowed to be present? That was a large defiance. Lord LYNDHURST rose to reply to the challenge of the Noble and Learned Lord. He begged to instance the case of Sutton Colefield. The Commissioners received evidence against the Corporation, but when the deputy stewards ap peared and offered their evidence, which they did without giving notice, it was refused. -(Opposition cheers.) (There was so much cheering and later occasioned by the rising of Lord Lyndhurst and the Noble Lords who followed him, that we could not hear very distinctly what they said.) .The Duke of WELLINGTON rose amidst laughter and Opposition cheers. He said that an enquiry took place into the Cinque ports, and he was inculpated and charged; he was in the country at the time, and he was not called on to answer the charges made. The Earl of FALMOUTH (and the cheers and laughter were long-continued)—fie said, before he made the observa tion he had to offer to their Lordships, he begged to ask the Noble and Learned Lord whether , in the c hallen g e hew gave, he confined himself merely to those cases in which evidence was given at the bar? ~ Lord BROUGHAM—To be sure I do ; I know of no others. The Earl of FALMOUTH had been about to say that ho was accused in the case of Truro, and received no notice of the proceedings of the Commissioners. He was prepared to put questions to the witnesses, who came to London with a view to answer the charges that had been made ; but that case was not gone into. Lord BROUGHAM thought he might answer the three Noble Lords in one.—( A laugh.) The Noble Duke described himself as charged and accused, but he saw nothing in the Report which made a charge against the Noble Duke, and the Commissioners would no doubt be much more surprised than he was when they heard of the Noble Duke's statement.-- (Cheers.) Was not the Noble Duke aware that such an in quiry was about to take place ?--(Cheers.) It was no very private affair. The inquiries were not carried on in a. corner with closed doors ; no one was prevented from appearing. The Duke of WELLINGTON never heard of it. Lord BROUGHAM said the terms of his defiance were— (Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—for it to bo shown, if possible, that at any place any person or corporation was charged, without being allowed to be present when the charge was made, or witnesses examined.—(Contieued cries of " Hear, bear," from the Opposition.) The population was thirteen or fourteen millions, and did the Noble Lords mean to say that there was to be personal notice in every case (Renewed cries of " Hear" from the Opposition.) Noble Lords knew that he had been accustomed to this sort of inter ruption in the House of Commons for many years.—(Oppo sition murmurs.) They might go on till five o'clock in the morning if they pleased.—(Murmurs continued.) He knees what it was to address a mob.—( Muct. cheering from the Oppo sition.) He had done it in all parts of the country.—( Re newed cheers.) He had addressed various mobs.—( A laugh and cheers.) He hoped and trusted he should continue to ad dress mobs hereafter as heretofore. He thought it was the duty of a public man to meet his fellow-citizens—(Cheers)and he had no objection to meet a mob either in Parliament or out of Parliament. This, however, he must say, that the most irregular of the assemblies he had addressed were not of that kind which went lay the name of the three letters, and which were to be found out of Parliament; for he had met more, and addressed more irregular, intolerant, unlistening's bad hearing, confident, erroneous, easily carried away, easily caught, easily entrapped by a temporary statement, and led astray by a fleeting notion that it would serve their purpose- - (Great laughter)—he had met more and addressed more mobs of this description during the last four years than he had ever met or addressed out of a House of Parliament. Now, per haps, the Noble Lords would allow him to go on.—( A laugh) Very possibly the Noble Duke did not receive notice of the meetings of the Commissioners ; but would the Noble Duke show him that their arguments were ever conducted with closed doors, or that permission was ever refused to any person to be present. The Noble Lord opposite had expressed a wish that the House of Commons should meet the majority in this House half way ; but he feared the Noble Lord really meant that the House of Commons should meet their Lordships the whole way—that they should concede everything—that the, should come and bow down before them.—(Cries of " Oh r and " Hear.") The Noble 'Lord said if the House of Com mons were but half as well disposed to concede and conciliate as their Lordships were, then the happiest results might be expected. Whether the happy result the Noble Lord antici pated would be the consequence of his conditions being ful filled, might admit of a question ; hut if the degree of con cession and conciliation exhibited by their Lordships in the last fortnight or three weeks towards the House of Commons; and the favourite measure of the people, was what was to he halved by the other House, it would not be very easy for that House to meet their Lordships in the course Lisp) , had taken- Any line of conduct more extraordinary to panegyrise had never come under his observation. 'That in certain quarters of this House there should be great delight that this Dill had met with undivided unmitigated hostility to its principle, a nd that it had been ruined by the alterations which their Lordships; had made in it, he could understand ; but the ground taker, by the Noble Lord opposite was not that—he talked of conci liation, of a wish that their Lordships should be met half waY by the House of Commons, as if they had themselves mad e some great sacrifices for the purposes of conciliation. Now h e wished to know how they could have done less in that respec t than they had done ?—(Cheers.) He wished to know how they could have taken any course which would have retained less of the Bill, or would have made more changes in the Bill, an d which would not have had the same effect as if they had alto gether thrown it out ? They had adopted the elective fran chise, but that was the whole ; and if they-bad not, they s hah' have thrown it out on the second reading, which, as it was, he, contended would have been the more intelligible, as it wool° have been the more manly course.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord then professed a wish to consult certain classes of t,b! people. Yes, but what classes? The people who were sot' him—the corporation classes. That was what was mean t ' The Noble Lord described this House as the hereditary tri bune of the poor. He had heard'it called a grasping and usurpiog and encroaching oligarchy, but that it was an hereditary try . bune of the people and the poor he never, in the wildest dreams of any man's fancy, had heard it called. No doubt their Lordships stood out for the rights of their fellow citisens —( Opposition cheers)—for the rights of their fellow mayors; of their fellow town-clerks, and of their fellow recorders, they would stand out.—(Laughter and cheers.) The interests c; these people their Lordships would stand by as if they %le r ( their own. The Noble Lord had declared the readiness 0, their Lordships to correct abuses directly they dis covere° them, and no doubt this was true; but unfortuna tely e there was this great difference between the vision °l4 their Lordships and that of the. House *of Comm° —the one was nearly as blind as the molt, and the other , sharp-eyed as the eagle.— (Cheers.) Their Lordships coere see no danger till it struck the very ball of their eye, ell% the more prudent Reformer cast his eye abroad and met the coming storm with timely and. effective reforms. The ir Lore.. J ships said that they gave reform to England and Ireland, an y. , what harvest did it bring—in the seed-time there were ne s ., discontents, and new demands for change. Let them re fore ' in time, and they would have no seed-time to dread.-; (Cheers.) Their great mistake was, that they would not Pir,, their sickle in the harvest in the proper season, but allowed to fall and rot upon the ground, after which it was o f cours ol in vain that they attempted to garner it up to any purpose es , 7 supply to a reasonable demand. Their error was , t hat ,tO O4 would not reform till it was too late ; they would not do g o d, till they were compelled by necessity to do it ; they would,• nothing voluntarily—nothing with the grace of concessiciiia What they did they deferred till all the grace which sv° ° „ o have attached to it was lost. Their reform came not only teit late to satisfy the people, but owing to the manner in whie b _, to was conferred made them perhaps despised rather than belove‘,ll This.was a most mistaken policy; for their Lordships woo have found that by timely concessions they might have giv.:.o less, but more would be demanded when they refused to in time that which was just. There was no greater folly might say insanity, than delaying that which they knew tn o l o could not postpone except for a while. Their Lordships, doubt, did not like to be admonished and warned; if they wee,b warned, they complained that they were admonished; eria fore, he would neither admonish nor warn them ; but he w i l l° , say what he considered it most expedient that they sh otllu He knew that they would despise and scoff at his opinion, ato tell him that it was ridiculous for him to utter it ; they w° tell him so, by means of the majority which gave them s u c - e , great support, and which so intoxicated them with confideo that it made them deaf and blind to all that was pan ill O t t i e every corner of the world. Nevertheless, he would give t to them as his opinion, that they would find it more expedie n fo l give up the sixth qualification—that having excited tloiveso distrust and aversion. He would ask them to give up the 51 o f qualification, and the substance as well as the appearaeceid, continuing the Aldermen and continuing the Town - Cler, Or if the continuing of the Aldermen was limited to oe c Y,. es ps hateful as it would be to the country, and odious in itsels,coe thought the people might, after deliberate reflection, reeon_oo, their minds to it. But to keep the clause as it stood, col tinning the Aldermen for life of the old Corporations, wonot be to impregnate the whole with the worst taint of the 0 0 , provisions of the rotten system, and would be so great an fa e rage on the people as to excite the deepest disgust, and P o ss. the fate of thii Bill in the other House of Parliament in W o ol than jeopardy. That the other House would delibera te ., hi respectfully consider this measure as sent down to the li s ? their Lordships he believed, but its rejection appeared tee, to be inevitable. That a conference would be holden wit! ) , oig Lordships, in which both parties would be induced to glf s omewhat, was the best hope he had for this measure. st The Earl of WINCHILSE A rose apparently nu de!' 96 excitement. His sentences were so hurried, and 105 . 0 the varied so frequently from the highest reach of the voice t ssa merest whisper, that it was impossible to understand r n°r §oh li i a few words of what he uttered. He complained of the t. . og o and Learned Loid, that he had used language in spen'i ster' their Lordships which was of a most unjustifiable chafe ,fli? He could not sit still under such imputations.—( Chee rs. ) 0 ,0 1 Noble and Learned Lord had debased not only their ° ne er° characters as Members of this House, but also thei r cheS dos ° in other capacities. The Noble and Learned Lord ha os idl everything he could to degrade their Lordships—( OPP w oo l s cheers)—and he had said that in the House which I , l c nrc ier, not have dared to say out of it.—(Loud cries o f , A and much cheering.) A `aid an"' The Marquis of CLANRICAR DE rose to order; so re a he hoped his doing so would give the Noble Earl 6 1 '1. ch ,t collect himself.—( Cheers.) He was sure the Noble,l feel for the character of this House, and the Noble rd ° J o el feel that the words he bad uttered could not tend t0 .. , 111 b i, afr o its character. The Noble Earl had charged the i' ° cie gra u ., Learned Lord with having done all in his pelves to bo l° e, this House. Under these circumstances he fel t it tb°reiste duty to move that the Order of their Lordships , Whic beir to the use of personal expressions in- the course of t tha t bates, be read at the table by the clerk. He m ust saY id 0 0 _7 this language was to be held in this House there wc' u o tioll, be an end to all argument, and to all legislative and . Stal l' proceedings. He moved, then, that the 15th o f OW de mg Orders be read. , t i [The Order was read accordingly by the Ciera• no us°, dared that Noble Lords should remark on the argil° so e s to_ft a p er in debate, and should not extend their observa tions pressions of Members ; and it prohibited all rem arks _ , t sonal, insulting, or offensive description.] toa- s s s Lord BRO UG HAM observed, that it was eeidc w bat Noble Earl laboured under a misapprehension as to , fallen from him. The Noble Earl laboured under st...reaseors citement, and had made use of language which h° f~~ I I I W I