The Sun. — London, England, 1852-05-04 00:00:00

are keought the rnea d e forth so early, seeing that the Ptllletebad only ben delivered that day. He thought this etiestiote required so much consideration that it was "t Pkts:ii'lls to pass At. in the present session of Parlia• tll eat.' .The Right Hon, Gentleman Ole Gladstone) he thought had gorao rather .too far wire: he said this Measure b 4 a boon to the colony. He (Mr. Stnith)elid not think that wa all they ha , ' to ceusider. With regard to the laud sales they must °lnsider whether the course proposed w )ald not give great dissa tiefaetion Australia. He hoped the Right Han. Gen tleman would understend,•that if they allowed him to !fling in the Bill it was for the purpose te: their exam titir this papers and the Bill, nod that ample time would be given to consider it. th Mr.. FIUME was not satisfied with the statement cif the ighL Hoe. Gentleman. He had expected Government wonld have stated what their policy would be with re gard to all our colonial establissumenis. Whatever they might do with regard to Crown leads, they ought todeal With all - the oolonies - on the same principle. And if they continued to have norninees,in the Legit,' dive Council, would•never rive satisfaction to the colonists. An. otner thing he had expected te heive heard something about wee with regard to the expense of the colonies to : I ",raother co untr y. They had not beard a word about hat. They wire told by Lard Grey, two or three /ban ago, that measures wore in progress by which the colonise were to bear their own expenses; and he was, therefore, much disappointed at nothesring anything on thatsubjece The Right Hon. Gentleman had tithe he w ould reserve something for the civil list. He (Mr. Rome) did not think ho , ought to reserve. anytbiag. The colonists ought to have the general management, end ie was child's play to keep them in the leading strings ill Which. they were norhkepte die thought this was not lheasure that ought to take up the time of the House— that it was not a measure of exigency to be passed this ses s i on. . Sir W. MOLESWORTH said When his llon. wits the Member for Montrone • observed that there w its no urgency with regard to this measure, heshould recollect that the measure of 1846 was a far less liberal Elie, and tha t if thi s measure d id not pass , th e y w o uld that Act tepees an A c t f o r the purpose of suspending Act for another year. Now, to the passiug of such Act he sh ou ld offer all the oppos i t i on i n hi s p owe r. He wan anxious that the settlers in New Zealand should hav e a s sp ee dily , as .possible the manag ement of their lentil affairs, ooth for their own sakes and for the sake of this Country, being firmly convinced that until they ob e tamed it, no stop w ou l d ever be put to t h e i mmense ex penditure of this country for t h e co l on i es .—(H ea r, hear.)e tna ar i ) one respect New- Zeeland was the most re tb:able colony thi s c o un t r y eve r had—in proportion to number of its settlersaud • its existence, it bad cost us -a larger , sum of - money- than any other colony. Within the last eleven years, no less than 1,600,0001. ad gone for the civil, military, and naval expenditure listened with that colony. —( llear, hear.) He had listened with great attention to the speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and although he should , () ,,berry at that moment to give an opinion on the de tails of the measure, he thought it one of the most lateral constitutions that had ever been offered to a colon 3. , —(llear, hear.) He agreed with him that there tCold he on e cen tr a l council; he disagreed with him l.st there s h ou ld b e nominees . He agreed with the tleh Hon. Gentleman that, from the peculiar manner iu • which New Zealand had been colonised, that they th o uld develop as much as possible municipal institu „,... . e 0 „ i that they should divide the colony into six pro-, il beseand that each province should leo° a-provincial eil_hecil with a president; and, in his opinion, the, pre beht ought to be elected by the inhabitants of the pro vince. t h, 1 , 4 ,.r. P. SCOTT said with regard to the observation of Right Hon. Gentleman, that the proposal with re gard to C rown l an d s wou l d create a fe rment i n A us tr a lia, :I • could assure hi m t h at t h e fe rment that already s ,!l!fed th ere on t h at su bj ect cou ld h ar dly b e i nc rea s ed, and it was highly necessary that that question should be settl e d , ee _ ei and the principle rec o mmended by -Government ed in this Parliament. Seeing that it would be "easery if some such Rill as this did not pass to carry e tt , ‘ B ,t l _43ension Act, surely it oug ht t o b e the desire of lnnial reform ers , s i t ti ng on t h e ot h er s id e o f t h e H ouse , that a me asure s h ou ld b e carr i e d wh i ch conferre d on t h e „ '',tleniat s extens i ve powers o f legislation, rather than that '"E'Y should carry a suspension Act. Mr. I'. HOWARD believed that the colonists of New hhtland were roost anxious for repeeseutative iustitu rhs. The great difficulty P ar li ament h ad had to con shnd with was the constitution ef what might be called e upper house el essem bly.- Unless the representative . th , ,cent was infused into the upper assembly, he did not „„`Mtlhey could give permanent eatisfaction. There 1 7 . ght be something said in favour of the retention of eft, eivilliat, but ha thought it desirable that the salaries o f officers: ,should be regulated by those who had seu c " i k uti , New Zealand for their home. Having said thus h o e ". he trusted that nothing would prevent the House. 111 Proceediag with .the Bill during present session.. th ° ° ffered his thanks to the Rtght ' llon. Gentleman for tit ) ° , 4l44 Y and zeal which he had shown on this aces tih,stid he should earnestly enter on a consideration of stn:itoportant subject with a view to give eur fellow ste.rta in that country something: like English repre mum Sir m is. • N. BUXTON said he had listened with great tt ,..1 istioh to the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle „thut with regard to the franchise there should be tl e gut rence between the Bill of the Right Hon. Gen oft 4 k h and that of Earl Grey. He rose ter ehe purpose tts t ,, I b4 the Right Hoe. Gentleman whether he could let e i y w to ha h t , number or proportion of the natives were t o ave votes iu this neer franchise? It acemed s oe l e that the Z ac l fret assist d,m of to New-tllmeasure was a very fair scheme for the Zeiland, and would give happiness 14r. ADDERI , native pepulation.—(Hear, hear.) AY said that almost the only point grated upon his ear throughout the Right Flan. te enter addreks was where he thought it neoes•sary into statistical information with regent to the 2, iner t of the 0 t • „ td pp a inn and commerce of New Iv " titmr"r to persuade the House that the colony' the for representativ e govetoment. • Why, year s a g o I owe, . "1 (1 131,4 " fit for it.—(llear, hear.) This House '° the acknowledgment over and over again, and the t s , Isa t if the Crown had given a broad recognition of that the I . sh e , tear.) And he was astonished to find *Re nee only gentlemen who called in qnestion the ltt eht et dealing with this measure now were the W iet ,""n• Gentl eman (M r. V. .B•Usite), and the Hon. for te yer for Montrose (Mr. Hume): With regard to the hi that Ri.l 3 uitad 0 it Hon. Gentleman must l eave made 'up *ere 0110 the subject long ago, when his friends Par atio ,, he himself in thw and the pro- t° the' Hon.th measure had drawn near its elope. As nesMember for - Montrose, who spoke of its ex li p ' e b o e ti shity of relieving this country from te ch 'Luse on account of the colonies, before 0,1 r• a measure as the present was introduced, he r• Adderley) would tell the lion.. Member frankly ape. faitl !if eon Y that lie s h ou ld do justice before he tniKed 4er om . l °° l 37, and giv e t o th e co l on i sts t h e i r r i g h ts e 4ti no threw u p on them the expense of government. had 4 _ 4 s was the only colony England possessed which it ei 7 . ' l, l ? .. thi . eg like its own rights, and-was, moreover, be ei thc i rved,. the only colony from wh , ch Enkland could to east rew its troops.—(Bear, hear.) Re would not itiepl the details of the measure in its present stage; principle would be discaated on the second reading, e itn „ t lt ro he t details would, of course, be reserved for the h '_ut ss. I tee. But he would take that opportunity of ex in his gratitude, and he was -authorised also to ex presshe gratitude of the colony represented by gen thraen now. in Llndu n , to the Right Hon. Baronet for having so prompti necessity of this me-in taking office, recognised the eorowly to bringi ng 4 ° ' l and addressed' himself so 'cis knew that it was con.iderrard.—(Flear. hear.) He Pon. Gentleman had spared 1:11" task and that the Right pains to master the sub- Jeet ; and though he felt that uPtotineseveral points of de ledt differed widely from the teelißight Honourable iiteletaian, • yet he knew be so strong vs ith regardthe _urgency. in the colony of th e measure, that he wes psrtectly to /Le:Lenity of the n „ litho thhoe was-grateful, tor sh° ° them and more t y in g the 41 ,4eing those differences as to details. en f fettsure proposed, rather then take the tilt, roa l i ,i!,i'ther su s p ens ion of the constitution of N ew z glaa were two points in the B ill, however, to whi c ht tit " anxious of directing the Right Hon. G entleman's ttenton, and the first wee the bemPl 3 eitiou oi L e e tint ir Chamber. - That it should be eocopesed of the Pop of the Crown wan, he t hou g ht, a grout blot i l re the measure, for the system of nomination stunk t he nostrils of the colonists, and the proposed chamber oth b. - of err Hbuse of Lords. oth, r a mere-caricature • the J oi nt Was the very subordinate position in which be placed. The iv eni Vovincial Legislatures would the Central Leeis y . lai n : be wholly under the control of -0, _I • would be' the only legts. itit uFe in tact, that body stitution he il l , in the colony. In so framing the con . " • c art t ight the ht Hon Baronet was putting the G 1 4, .; b ef , ire the might It contemplated viC rl g tubjeets in the hands of the Centre' Legislature tied ould be better under the control of the Provin _ • rtl ieht. 4*3 " la teires; and as an illustratten ,of this he - mention the land fund. In tbie articular the g h t Hdiminished than tope cm. Gentleman had rather _ ,Nuse os like u so ••• 4 provision which formed a statesman in the plan of Earl Grey. What fear there e ea of • • tir• e , vpsiin in the Provincial Legislature . the ma t r" Ment (e a u, their land funds, he (Mr. Adderlay) was qit Y u loss to conceive. The colony Was eaten up h ad rs Inb mismanegement. Six years ago the colonists , lni • ( Meted of the est er , ,Colonial Secretary of that day per fundsw:" build a lighthouse at Port Nicholson; the `jol eotai ' c ,r° ready, and all that was-required was that the Ipte secretary should get an Act passed for the per the the British Parliament. Yet from that day to s°att:e"bh the lighthouse was not built. In the samo thei r 1 1( 4 ( 7 had been unable to gut moorings put down in ttan . tie. He looked forward now, however, to a titr e 6 ? 011 all that , and he could not but express his sa ki (31 ° 11 tha t • tig tett , at the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir. J. Pa ehalln,e ) had not allowed the colonists to suffer from a 4(1 1 7 .°_t Government here at- home, with which they t °thin brie g to do, but that he had deemed it his duty , th e g in a measure conferring constitutional rights on 1 th e 410 hists Nee on behalf of whom, and of the agents of 406. Gentleman In this country, he begged to thank the ltight Vig t , ro ` batman for having placed the subject-with such err ability before the House. re RUss sslte w ow ELL thought the Right Hon. Gentle old t , ‘ e have been justified et merely introducing a tthhad tho constitution for another year; but I , l e wi ts thopaias to prepare a new• constitution, t iet sedue e t tl ion titled to the gratitude of the House for the t et t /cl ot . to the of the present measure.--(Cheers.) With to theree measure itself, he (the Noble Lord) • it in th hhld not be any considerable opposition I t ltnpo et it on 1-1 let and he hoped he might -be able to t•, % blitn od r • ale the Points on which the lion. Gen 04* ThUb Adderley ) had threatened it with oPl3°Bi nyos the outsell appointed by the Crown was not to th anth • e re authority which it need to possess; but as elp tt i tv :lte no precedent what ever of the workne of an e ' 99114 g ark, thought A l s - a I Gentleman . ! . _ was (pito justified in introducing , the former kind of council into• his cenetitution. There was another point upon which he cenid not gather whet was the przeise intention of the Right Hoe. Gentleman. The question in this celony wee not the tnere . givitig of a :oenetitution to a number of British 13 abi Get - 4 who- had been used to the wurkires of the repreteetative machinery 'in .this country; hut there weee.loo,o)o. tenra erthe native , pepu!ationesotne of vieliteu were inelotibtedly malting great advances in ,civilizttian, but others of whom , : ware net inuoh advseced front_ the state in which they origin:illy ware. V 7 the Right lion. Gentletnan.oro p - iced that where it' naive . held the 'qualification re quired et the British: settlers,--he . should have the. same right to vote, and the sameefranithise, .as a -liteitielf settler. , That would be a convenient arrangement in a restricted settlement, but: where they 'Wee settlement of considerelele limits they vvould•give the franchise,to a •considerahle•number of the 'native population, who would beeigeoiont as to the tiode of, carrying on an election, or selecting proper representaiivae. .On the. other held, it would be felt a <great • grievencee if.- any r. cc° was plated between-them and the eetitsseatid,.. this CVII3 the great chili ntity of Sir. Gr. Grey:. t3er. , G. Grey Wai , a very able than; but he, knew. that with these 100,000 natives ir, would. havo:beemwery difikettiv to .prevent lei pi apex. Aete. from .• p aka jag. an :1 yet to. have deprived diem of the francleiee eteeeld . nave very COliSiderbt.,:e grievaece. 'few Abe Right fiene:Clen-, denial] propetsed to deal with this hatter he did not at: present entirely understand. The Ant %as, what would be the liteit of the General As e rubly's.juriethea. then ? Wittereepect to the measure itself, •he Aiould he happy to afford itevery facihtyin his power. Mr. AGLIONBY -• was ,strengly -rippated .to thee placing of' tholencle hands of theerelonists until they had paid off.the debt. The New Z e ulaed - Compaey had a lien upon those lands, and it had certainly elope 'much to entitle it to. the consideration -of the lone!; 41 having purchased all the rights of the French eettlers, and mule the island an entirely British - colony. If thee. removed the lands from the.Crowo, the company-would, lose its only statutahle claim; and he entreated the House not to sanction such a breach of faith. • Re'er- • ence had been madesto the Crovvnlaedeof the Australian colonies, but theirs was a most importantdifferenco be tween the royal demesnes in the two • colonies—inas much as in. New Zealand more than 9-10 the of them had come into the pos%essien of the CtoWn under the • Act of 1847. The only mode in which they could .cut the Gordian: knot would be.to.teivel the company a home guarantee, instead of its presentscauritye This would be the cheapest course, for combined . with proper relarme, • they might save it by 10,000/. or 15,0001. a year. As all events, be supported the grant of a constitution to • the people of Now Zealand. Mr. GLADSTONE suggested that the plan rreferred to as having been prepared by the late Colonial Govern ment should be laid on the table of the House. Colonel THOMPSON begged to offer the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) a warmer congratulation than any-that he had yet hoard. Did the 'Right Hon. Gentleman know that ha was proposing a. system-of colonial policy that -would put int:i our possessiun as much of the empire of the world as au honest man would wish to acquire.? thought that a few.. moments might bo useiully employed in pointing ; out the iniport 7 . mice of the principle which the Right Zion. .Gentleman kiss been the fortunate means of bringing forward: and putting into execution. Tho- great have and. injury of our colonial system had always been the difference of races; but now of that difference the .Right. Hon. Gen tleman.was likely to see the end. We were now.in the saute po,ition towards.the natives as that in which his-. tory itiformed us the .R.imans stood to, our rude. fore-. fathers. The Right Honourable Bironet had given- them evidence that the native inhabitants of . that colony, were as nearly as possible in the-condition our -lorefathers were. .He was net sure whether our forefathers ate anybody, but it was gait° certain they -roasted them.--(L.ughter.) These natives .wt-re to partici pate in the benefits of the eons:Almon of this country; and he hoped that when 'the present race of states men had long. passed fr)m this sublunary scene. the Right Hon. Baronet would ha quoted as having laid the foundation of an empire more eict.nsive'thati would otherwise have fallen to our ahare.—(l.leur, hear.) I , had not been stated what was to be tbe . qualificatiuu of the elected; if it-was to be the.same as that of theelec tors he kb uld be quite content. lie clid riot approve,ef the proposal that 7,000/. should be expended for. the benefit of the nauveb. . Why should :they be treated ee.a children?- . , • , . Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said. that after. the cordiel manner in which his proposal had been receive4hteleltk sanguine, with .eeery - dispositioa to meet all.fuir amend meets, that the Bill migift become livv thin session. .1 - 1(.3 had not anticipated any objection to his measure from • such a friend to local , sett-government•as the Hou. Nlember for Montrose. He wished to supply au omis sion in his first statement, . on the . SeancieLpart ot.the question; By a statement in his hand, he found that toe annual eaten - Altura oithis country fora the govern ul 13 8.4 to. 3 teens of New Z;ttlaud, not including the maintenance of the military ferco, had. fluctuated 0 20 v ,0 43 0 t0 01 i . n 36,0001. a y eitr . Li a edition there ut 54.0001.; and in 1850 of 21,0001., for additional ex penses above the sums he had mentioned. In the esti mates of colonial expenditure for the present year, this item would be reduced to 10 0001.; next year he hoped it would only be 5,0001,; and after that there was every reason to believe that New Zesland would be altoge ther self-supporting.—(livar, - hear.) Lie had been asked as to the limits to be as.igned to the several province s. Sir George Grey, iu his last dispatch, stated that each of the British settlements had now attracted to it a Sur rounding population of the native race; the two races' stood to each other in the relation of landlord end tenant and were insensibly forming 'one community.—(Rear, hear.) These natives were entitled to share the privi logoe of their .felloweitii:pne. They were 120,000 in number; they varied very much in their degree tivie liz;tion; many lived in districts which might not be eluded in the different provinces; and it was to promote their eivillzstion, by eohoole and other means, that the 7,0001. was propoecd to be 'voted. Thte-Governor would be empowered to prencribelhe limits of the dife ferent provinces; 'and there would no doubt ba' a very large district which would'eot be Contained. in •these . provinces. Sir George Grey prhposed . to introduce•mu-• nicipal arrangements for the different classes; /anti' ho believed the object respecting which the • Noble Lord (Russell) held put a goestion would be• attained. But, certainly, the Central Legislature would' have a general control over the whole of the islands. He had no.ohjec• Lion to the plan of Sir George Grey being printed for the use of the. House. • Lord J. RUSSELL said that plan had never been duly considered by the Legislature. Leave was then given to introduce the Bill. THE MILITIA BILL. On the motion that the House should go' into Committee on this Bill, - . - . . , • , Dlr. COBDEN.rose and spoke as follows: - Mr. Speaker, Had the majority •in the division on . the second reading - of this Bill ,fairly represented either . the . population or the wealth of this country, I should net have ventured to offer one word more, either to resist or delay the progress of the measure. But I have 'the sanction of the highest Minh - ter, of the Crown for the course ' I have taken on this question., I have taken the division lists 'and analysed thew and, amongst that large majority of 2 to 1 who votel itt'fa ' S'our of the Militia Bill, I find not the representatives of any of the. large centres of intelligence, industry, and wealth.'a any of our large city populations. In the-minority I find the -re-. presentatives of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Binning.: ham, Westminster, Southwark, . Mary lebone, Lambeth, Tower Hamlets, Finsbury, Greenwich—the largest of our borough constituencies; also, Newcastle, Hull,Southampten„ Oxford, York, S , oskport, Worcester, Sheffield, Northamp tou,'Hudderstield, Aberdeen, Canterbury, Atattrosa. Bath, `l , -undee, Coventry, Leicester, Preston. The City of London and Liverpool were - divided on' this question. Leeds and another' place were also divided', but the two Members who voted for the militia have declined . again to canvass for their saata. , -Middlesex and West Yorkshire are divided. I can say for myself, knowing what is the state of ' public opinion in West Yorkshire, that next to free trade there is no one question. on which I.would snore. fearlessly go to that.. Constituency for fe-election: than as an opposer . ofthe Militia Bill.—(Cheer..) lii addition to this test we have 800 peti tiona against the Bill ; and all the large towns in the king dom are in oppdsitiOntO it. We have not had One petiti n nor one Meeting in its favour. (Cheers.) I do not pretend to say that the Government is not competent t,;-proposesuch a Bill; but these filets afford' fair ground; at all events, why I should move a reconsideration of the measure. - (Hear, , i hear.) . I wish there facts to be known, not only in thia,l country but in. -11 neighbouring country.. .1 wish theist toil know that the great centres of : intelligence and. populatioh bona w hi ch i s 1- - 11 -,,: hi s . country de net join with those gentlemen ihtbia -u- la who cail themselves statesmen, forsooth, and w l l9 - vvatesion by , , ._ rise in their places- possessing great authority on other qties . great mu , of ill evidently lost stn this -and tell us that we are danger from our neighbours, and must be prepared for iris an ex pre Y ss a i ohnoord;l it o_f savages —(Laughter ) ''lt is evident totally disbeliev the security of the intelligent people ' of this ' country' (Cheers.) ' Nor .ie this to be - - taken ‘ atV the that the population are imlifferent - toe cni ottutroca.tiaulase?realtn. 11 w- have the population acted camp, the whole. nation into seeinecteenverced-to an immense ". On a endue, the laud Walter Scott tells us—. • . ~. • 'appeared for a time to be u tter et All peaceful .considerations i o r w ee n aside, mid the voice Calling . ' himself into a Gerieral.,ti,ial. soldiers, and the good old King s co t , rights sounded, not only' in the nation to defend their dearest rd in ilvtuhked to second the tree with the voeiePlaces of doooof .devotion.” • Parliament, and in Ineeti h o ea Public amuse sures of defence, but'tvas necessary. take rece-, ment, and mingled even H oe s is it that the. people out of s - . rou n ci d d re do not do on this for question as on all others, where it i dente of this House?—(Cheers.) Hew is it. that Simply they b ase not believe that there is any g not given us the lead?—(Hoar, hear.) si n , atom of alarm, and because they believe they have alr°%ll3l, because they do made abundant sacrifices out of their resources, sufficigt to meet all the dangers that may impend over the country: - think, after voting fifteen millions of their money . They think, a which would build a Manchester or 'a G-t a a n - ntlallya sum . 'tit in the present • state "of the affairs 2 . - if g o w e v q fy year= that necessity why: they should leave their the , world there is no d turn soldiers in their own defence profitable occupations an I am going to , deaLon at a shilling a day.--(Hear, hear.) • . with with your army, but your,;. the present occaaions inet 1t to Consider the Safeguad navy, which we have been tang i f Id I , ti . tiand" al e s''co od walls o 0 ,I, - e of 4ngLanCh The." lv° eu r l ; r tlle opinion of the country great deal to this countrys an,...t is a . e vote s,500;000 , that they,ought to be'able to protect us : NI . r r) ti , the packets Inc u in), e for our navy and naval establishments, for the Post-offfetsservice; and I 'hie:hide those', Sibatise' in the case of hostilities; t h e ' ve ry brUnt of t Ile ivar wMO be borne by those packsts; which aro larger than-the Govcrd.,, ment steamers; and would be able-to catch anything, Watt away from anything; therefore I sav they are one of the toot e4sential parts of ,the nave. (Hear.) , Going back to 1835, I find • we spent Duly 4,5110,(100/.. on nor navy. We,. have siege increased that expoiditure 2,000,00 0 1. , Why, to meet the very difficultie s an d cow intzehcies . Michyou now,. say yon are making provi , ,i(m for. In 1836, it was said we were going to have war with Russia and' yoni addect 6.600 ' men toyour navy.' There was no war with l' .- I but' the additional fcrce was kept ''l di. lii's a' - up. n N4l and '1342 you bad' difficulties in China and Syria, and a ' threatened rupture with France; . and in 1842 , • with America about the l tic , : fi tt i rred the . difficulty added to our navy then on account Ith boundary. NS e e war, in China and Syria, and the chance of a .rupture with iio the, United States. Those tiifficulties passed away, was never reduced. In, 1845, there was a :he navy . . a_ z very s _ ~. ~ grave and sumo 14141114 01 ' a rupture whit the LI . d A* THE SUN, LONDON, States • about the Oregoa territory. There WAS a strong pro bability of wer, aud nn increase of 1,000,000/. 0rT1,200,000/. was agreed to in the navy estimates. We then, formed what was, called ~ta.sq.aadran, „of evolution.; it enanceavred near-our own shores; the Queen paid a visit to it; and it 53as said : ae,,tee tine' that there was as large a force in that tquadren as hadaindil: the battles of the Nile or' Tra fieger.-;-(He'dr, hear.) - The Oregen dispate was settled; hut thalqarettat tae` notaat 'all - terltteed Thee Caine 'the dispute with Franca about the Spanish - marriages. The dynaatr of , Fratee har' passed away..like a dream ; and; in ' ateal otac:ominganereias invade:A. - had been glad-to receive our l ia4tality.---(Chaarae) fitill these•preparations had con. tineed, and that on a scale large enough to meet hostili ties from a power far more formidable than France; for there ie. no douat the United States' is far more powerful; and yO'n,havo all the -foice you prepared to meet that . powea'athd also the force you prepared to meet France. This year •we' have voted; 39 000 seamen and boys, and 5,000 ' fat a reserved force'- in All 4-f,tltO :Yeti have, therefore, all That yea •aver bad ' during the tithe' I - am speaking of. There ii- nci atrafteniiaa pier - Geo - train .• which I can ascertain the ekafit -stew - of aour,naval 4oreeae • No.'annual report is ,made or ttikt:nolnk:tr:of vesselee-"wheee they are stationed-. tae* inanyee - re in e couree.of constrectiou or in onlinery. We naveto,,nenttneepa,dt the military or_ ariyal periodicals to tied theta oat; and then we do net fuel the numner of men. 1 Tee eal t aaakiace fecal Whiela I caa obaxid the latest correct a.:caant4atile t i aval f, :As IS from the sneech of the late I:aai . . lor ef,tti 0 Al tiiirel fy 'in area - aloathe navy_seemetes air t aso;arrilitalteiliAlai s- f4a•at , We then -tiad -115 g sit/vain' enni mi: said, aal advearieed soil in au:dimity, • and it ready twits 1 aim:bed:a "Fella ita inteearat numbers;' ships boat - amid build la aa aOatett hare no daeht , one-nresent naval force antonnts to- very.aunclatbe,eatime eta, 4sir i 5 test navel. I ace disposed • of 2 lier . o*gain,3, , ao.jas,(„in the earne- difficulty. 1 'mow. not where to a apply, to ktieve MillerB Ole vessels are ,stationed. aril vela. is the aikicier, of torceou rash .stn ' ion. Bat the . Right 11•M..(4414nan, i'e4,'lTOrrie Seeretary, In introducina' a this Militia Billaefi the 29th of 'Mara, teal us the neriibeeof vessels 'a- henna' 'iliiialy'te - aill, - He said: e Yout• ships in comMiasionehthe.hotneatillen'at this Ma:anent are, 9 vessels of sif,:r,:'.6;rrigereae:lll,s,6o; 9a atearnere , 'Orepelled - by siiraw, - - , and 8 propelled by paddle." And he grounded hisaMilitia , , Bill omehe stattailatie.that , that was - all the force: we- had to protect our shoret e "But when the Right Hon. Gentlentan the,SeeeeeratefoelattaaTevaespeke he-eatel lite.hed to add to these the following list :- .'• there were at Woolwich .nine vessels with 530 men ; Sheernes3„ 4 ,Seaen, with 1,544 mena ' Portsinouth, a sixteen, " with 6,642:Men; ,Devempert, eleven, with 2,822. men ; Cork, five, with 363 man eitaalte .48- vessels and 11,a06 men. 'To them add . itegifidate . (Catiising);:lfio '.neen ; Plato, 55 ; ' An telope, 55; Vulcan, 152 ; making in - all 52 vessels and. 12,328 men, exclusive of 4,500-marine's on shore, and coast geseet and dockyard battalions; in all, 29,643 meth In ad antiOn jae,,haaa to MN:klieg , i,that the Simolni and Vulcan; large, screw-steamers, were each capable of moving a eegi ment, and there were several small steamers besides." . This is a very different statement from the former. What I wish 'to have ieisnexact statement, such as I have moved far, of the number of chips "advanced, in commission, and in ordinary. , Thera d& f ereithe important question; how are our ships diapoecal •of 'oti^lcireign stations? ' 'I- served' twelve Months on the Naval Cpmmitteeeof4B4B; and I came to the conclusion that there is a great Waite of the public money in keeping=-large' shiatait)ll , distant , stations under the,plea 'of protecting , ont eeninintake for which purposes they are never availableee-(Neara hear.) Tee Secretary for the Admiralty • also gave us,-in that same. speech, the .amount, of our naval forees QM the ,different foreign siations e whiChconsist of seven -the ESA Wiest end Chins,. the Pecific or west coast of Ainerica, the south-east coast of America, the west coast of Africa, the Cape of Geed MO; North America and the West I tidies. and thoMediterritteate -He says-that- . . . . - "The whole of her Majesty's ships •in arnamission were-a in the East ladies and China, 19; Capeeof Good Hope, 91 coast, of Afrieit 2.;.:ola,the'edietheetist- coast of America , the number of ships was 8; west coast of America, 9; North , .America.andeetelenaiee, 13; .Mediterranean „ 1 9.':.. • . . . . _ W `On referring to the report of the Naval Committee; I. find that in 1837 allea4l rtreatnlY ten ships on, that station, 'and that we 104 04cfp i t eepieptliree or, lour vessels for some years', on coast of'New Zealand, in - Consequence, of the troubles there. Now that we proppse to give a constitution to New Zealand, and to hand over all the waste lands to the local Lirglilatice; dreAtialy parity dispense with two or three of these; -one ship will be suffictent to beleft there.-(Elear,' hear.) I dare say the war m , Barnekli will be urged a g ainst out briatatir heiheanore ships tfrom- China and the 'East Indiee. But Whilowe have nineteen chips stationed in those seas, theaEastalndia„Company have also a large 'fleet for the protection of commerce, ~ and, they profese entirely to their own shores; thereforewhatever force we have there ' ii*i .fie entirely for, the prOtection of our trade to China, and not to the East Indies. ,LOoking at time amount of, our exports . to China andthe'.Eeetern Archipelago, mensp.fleet t eilt4ether clisproportioned to"it tiudto thiekiikieta - 6P the-case. 'To place large ships Of war to :Wave' as 'a 'pollee; *here the only eheinies Of corn nierce are pirates ,who keep the -- shallow waters: in like em--• 0 03 4 0 g, uateldt betterr to ~ took - after ,:pickpockets in the courts and alleys of the metrepolis.e. (Cheers aud laughter.), You havCpaliaateadaaateneyaoe thaeleughter of 10,000' per sone, about 100,0034 in: rave .years. The ,ehips employed have all beep : small eessoll; and in • destroy ing that amount of piratei yon:.l.!•aiVe not lest 'a man; there his not beeen such an dint:Unt of l'eslitanee as to cost you the lifeaffa single individual. To keep very large vessels in these seas is quite unnecessary. 'fathink (mead - MIMS - might agree, - as atir comnodores do, to heist their flagon 'beard a -frigate where ealltiti-efAattlnehip•watalavaied not - to be necessary. -(Hear.) The Pacific, or west coast of America station, was formerly uniteaalwith the toast , • of South Amerlea; but in , 1833 it was formed into a separate station. The. Right Boa. Gentleman tells us we have - seventeen ships there nine on the ?tta.4et end, eight-on the Atlantic station. A ~large increase took place >on this station in eomequence of the threateeed rUpture with America on the boundary qdestion, and the dispute going - on in Buenos Ayres. Du ring six years we have had aneaVerago of 2,000 - men and ten ships of war lying in the River Plate, interfering in that dispute ;`and yetwe effeeted 110 good whatever. I believe the merchants themselves at last agreed that our interference had done more harm than good, and had retarded the progress of negotiation. Now, General Rasae,like many potentates on this side the Atlantic, has' becenie expatriated, and is in this country; so therejs an end to all necessity, for interfering in the affairs of the, River Plate.-( Hear, hear.) You may safely take • away six ships from that aitation, leaving 11, and then yea will have a larger force to proteet your commerce than the United States has, though their trade is much greeter since the'-oie co very'd the gol h d i t California. Oa the weseiolgt i:ir Africa the Right Ilea. Gentlemen'tella us there are 22 ships. The Milliner there is nearly doubled Heat, hear.) Ido not since 11833. I say, bring- hem's every one of those ships. transferred tO Brazil, width yesitt:itaf:. not- - tornpelled tirkeep.there by treaty vial more. likely ao do.barm k: t n u ti o t e ct i r i P w t s t i l t i e3 ; t's ia h e r - .l rtra ' cl ui ti" D e C . t , h w r i l k hl i tli. b i e lte Z: -.-'l i ti(e than .00,11,...ctuar, , h.ea o ., , , t et ese. ape .te . the Cape cif. Good Irape, and, whire,the'Hanourable Gentleman said we lied nine • a e a s er a ` - ,; ,. / a *,',,tte O n e • Kafit.,,War may be urged station, I will say not one woad_ in favour. of removing a aa a rediPia a r ot not oi:inthilig any Of our vessels from that Angle vessel from that 'siti (Hear hea'n) : -I come nhat-0 ''the -West Indian and Norte American ,' stat lona `where-We h av e' thirteen- ships, and in pro- Portion tafouteetriate eeith,thaasOeplad e a there is no portion "Station "lending the Kafir tsar.- our:corn/fierce which required so little ptotection as that with North America.-(Hear e laairSlae It would be an insult to the 'felted States to says that WA.required vessels to pro tect our codunerce there.-41.1ear.) 'Teey, do not send ships to Chia couettY to protect their commerce here.-a( Heaa) : And if you attend to veer" men ffairS,-atil do notyneddle ,in : those 'of - 611146, 'Yea . have V airlittli occasionfbr est 'lnd ehipiies in. Mirth Atritil.:(llear;• hear.) lie to the . , yon are trading with your oWn ,- ecilomese and, of course, 'you dpn'aleteatare any. gtelit Wee - of =ships on that coast.- (Hear t heaiella And heree•egain' lantust observe, that no tiring is so useless as a litre-iitabattle 'ship on the West Indian coast. Ineintolditbat, at laidgstort the officers give balls and .elitertai9nlente.otaheard dress .tillips;but, as line of battle ~ ship to , protect ,our com merce is the Wes t. Indies, it has none vnateVer. -(ll e at, hear.) I Would with to the use of a draw foul tint brtwesa thirteen vessels from the North Ame rican and' We'sf"lieliin station' vessels I'viould have them of thi larger siti.-'( Rear, bean)" '-11-now-tecne to the last 'and, seventh station ~ .t hat of the Mediterranean.' We have thir• 'teen vessels 'ii this station.' NeveitiS stated in. the evidence 'of Sir Ge - Cockatirrie that' in his-apiiiion sea frigates and one line-of-battle ship-was as„ large a . force as•would be required on this statien 'ie. time, of petca.e-(Eiesr, hear.) . But at this moment.: we nave sbc"oe - seven tine-of-battle ships with twelve otathicteekemellereeeseele,.. Wipe, the largest collec tion of vessels a oneat4 station pilling under the ,orders of Admiral - Danaes fre)eaittet to Cephalonia and Smyr na.- ,: (alear, li4te,) Now, .want to knOw if you are really se i tioue when'you ser that there iillenget of an invasion, be came, if . ;.•5 , 6n arc.' yoni, co udnct is that either of childrensor of madmen; Ira l ' eave "jour. own shotee unprotected Whilst' you hate' - the:- Utast '''cilineelitrat hid of Vessels you possess 1,200 inflate' dietante-(llettra- hear.) My proposition is that you should beiug , hoine ten: oat: of. these nineteen vessels, and • leate fling, which is three more than Sir G ",Cockburn said would be necessary..-a(eleate , hear.) .Bear in mind , that I do out propose to„, being those ..vessels beine ii, arder to din- nruitle there,or ealay tli,ln 'up ia ordinary, bat as you say that, here is danger of au in c ai lyn, and that, It is therefore. tepessaryto eprol a militia, I say biting hot:lee - these vessels -e-liave thein' in Spathead, or Co, or FlynioUth, instead of 'the'Mediterran4an. , -r.(dear , ,beset.) ' But I lieste thisobjec ' tion-if . Yeti bring back ilia fleet hatifia-Meditarransini - then 'Fran e, • which-it/is inade , :a4reat aliiiiination - Of vessels in her northern port-pm/ill , bring back het ehipsinto the - Ohene nel; and then we would be no better off lhaii we were be fore. ' Well.abiet if e thie ho--SQ, .w . bat becomes of all the rea sons which : were given toe inareeeitig anr..navy 2-(:leer.) I have heard, itosid that France had no; season to be Afraid, of • °Pr largeFYlo,i that Oliglvaa en ,island, that we had a, large commerce to protect. and that we, wanted a large:fleet ;. ttiat,we were klot a "great military poWer; anitthat Our baying alarge fl et ought hot to raise time susceptibility Of any other 'curintrsaAliktidea, iriteli"aki'sity, bring year 1 - Vet 'home, I ' ant - tofd;';09111, it 411traiistathe snseeptibility 'of Fritude; and {'},hey ' willlitarigatialtaltiet to thee northern -- poste, and•se 'we 'nnidst he - coiael•a military nationY,":(llear, hear.) : If this be - tree, yorta've: obtainettillto.4heraso of your navy under hike pretedces:-(ilear, hear.) I oar if. you: an • invasion liiiiiiitilknieiTSTr tleetTfrena , the Mediterranean, and France werild„t9A no rightto feel, jealous so long as she kept up a standing army of 350,000 men, whilst, we had only, A small arrhy,iiifvrhh I i,hops the , ‘good sense of the peopleof this cothitri'ari i ktitsirrialt to be tacteased.-(Elear, hear.) We hare , ' this --• en - f 7 lo9 ,, naileg off, And then the 'non.' itaeritletraiaatelfe a;"aoi htaidid the other night; that - Hull , Mil! Dundee, and, some othete 'places ' were left "wholly Ainprotected.- (Hear, hear 4 -".Surely 11118 was either a joke 'or - an ainsalt; e akeenr. understandlege.-(Hear, bear.) Why, five of •tho : -Place.aa*tbiehawere saidato be.. undefended sent petition 3 against, the_ Militia Bill.-(Hear, hear.) i have bOn arguing 94", t h e assumption of the , advocates of a t ilia that we, want Mete, defences But I Confess Ido •Pt'sr , o army firei'eiett - ii - . - 4' . ''' " i" '. ts ~, a ,ger:in- any Pact ott- (Bear) . -'and I have not be hen - sion.-"-(1.4 ' . - he' feat - arged that Should eicite"anYapare theta :: w e-, . ' B a_tt) ''''lkYe 'lava - Ittal ! es,rety assurance that , giveeeta • Bat it-hire -Awe - - at , lurther Anitsureaavere necesaary. don't hatievee elle ' '.nd4 Vitt ..arepliibleeto. war 'at any time. ' 1 tioned agta aat , ne .. qhwareaetstaathatapieiple- here peti- Tretti-haatee,tt,::::ati liethatelheyaleu't.believeitlikely or PaaPle WORN &teed iii s t,:"Y" lol , 44 ( - W a XiA t ':Any. moment.: •If what tocilii i pl p ..a...7eYafra*PrakesPeleiallythe details ot try ail,l ,(04.r3c,re41,y,,, hour _the ruptures between t ahle surf they *mkt eee t t arla w el;44r i iiiii:thialast e huridraa y ears. a stealena-'lofilliaititt4ClarWileit:t4'4!Y';t4-41, I, 4 itia.up6 ' a ini a stibienr4fillb2,6 wiiiiiiit*n '''''. Al " 's ` 3l. akEi Ohne tie e a m e e teedni . , , . on when thielitaglarie - pet to••death,'and le--"-- frOm Vrtine73 the palate- fandtiativ kr.tiPa'aleteriea A''';'„-bevt "'notice te at thi 4 couittrya; BatheFreech Ambassador, i rder Ceased vin in ai I led hereiri haprivate•Cilimity, from An /41a q ' •'-'n'T, re amt. &ripe thet:titrie Up, made' every : d'art to awl -February, t io. higly,Lepl.l9WitatiVei frOAI F otica had comVeerth 1108tiii• h a d private itVer views with Mr. Pitt, and the a _ a‘ ae s ta• and wo .o„94,preed. to leave this. Onetry. It was pot d till ' six montbi'aker the ambassador 'hid left that the t countries"-"canoe" into twaddle• hostilities.-(Year; a e a7 ° .) A ain, after flVie trer.ty of Amien-, in 1802- a treaty wiliest • - would not laste-although there was everybody' knew what ele 1' ti " f - Wes 'alaiost tantarnbuot to a c ant on 0 Isar on the Bth of Murata ;18034 ' and although "Bonaparte went .so far as-to offer- a personal. insult oustto-; ambassador, Lord Whitworth, yet Lard wh i tl , (044 etigEttenaely difacult to obtain y . tomb TUESDAY a passport, and.,his attaché hal to hunt Talleyrand through . ,_ out the provinces of France before h e c o u ld get one; and it was not till the following May- th a t -the two countries came into .collision.-(Hear e beate r ) :Franca could view it as no light matter to be brought into collision with a people so brave, so energetic, and . possessed of such great resources as the people of England.-(Hear, hear.) But then it is said that the present ruler of F ranc e is not to be trusted-that he is a man who wreild disregard all inter national considerations of policy an d justice. • Now, sil t e ever may be said of the present ruler of France, if merit is to be' taken as a test of success-and I am afraid we are all too Much disposed to regard it in that-.light--Louis :,Nape .leon had shown no want of talent. Whatever maybe though of his moral sentiments, he has shown that he was no block! , head. - ("Hear, hear," and laughter.) He had reached the Highest: post• in the state, 'the people Seatried to acquiesce i n hi s role and he obtained a larger civil list than thequeen of Feeland - (Bear, bear.) It Was all coileur dz rose_with him, and yet we' are told that this man istoiag tnderrart ' teem all recognised principles of international action, and that bta•Th going- to invade our sbore-.- (Hoar. ) I have a friend in Frantekehoin name, if I - quoted it, would be ra teived with respect not reify in this House, but everyweere. in Europe. I wrote to him on this- subject, to aetertain it . Le cou'd eive any infarmationto confront the most silly eanfc [hot ever , wae knw ou in this cou n t ry . H ere i s his answer,. e-re e rieeti in two lines.:--•• Louis N.apoleor, it . : ,-lel iintile'Y a rt , ' :lute. e.O it ti:-owls: one of. his gerier a e a lf that general, No eueee „,a„: s e woalcl celipee him;, if he wee no: be woul d ruin hi et. "- (II eer, ilea-.) But underttand that I am not here asking se u to teat the gee d fai o r .h • torbeatanee of allot:oda' (Hear) -but. f 'say that Leuie N'epol.a)h is not , eo . taolish as . re contemplate - anytilim; :. -, 0 erneidal M -a bueCaneeringeatack on our .borer:wouldbe.--(llearahear.):. When we hear that leeis diep A' chiteg the riorth and to the south, anti =that he 'ls everywhere carrying s, uk negotiation4.4.o-ettaeli persons, tot hie interest • - • and eaus was at to_ beeetipteoeea that at thieeverY tim e lie Was going to run hi 3 head into - war with England, andahat he was. going ..to ~iaiveele u s w ith some. 15,000 or, astute diplontatiets te 20,000 men ?- : (Hear, leear.) ' I • have ,heard it said by, the . Noble Lotd, the Member tot Tiverten, that it' was possible for the''preeerit 'ruler of `Frauds to inv a d e t hi s country by . sending 50,000 or 60,000 men from Cherbourg in the night. When I hear such statements as that, it accounts sufficiently for all the old-statesmen sitting on this siee of the House ont of office..-(Liter, hear, and laughter.) And I do not wonder that Lord Derby should hope to .find new "diggine and new veins, and that he . ebould discard the old' "placers."-(Much laughter and cheering.)., Surely it is little less than an insult to the good sense of the country to make th a at pt 6 egi: o ct o i ri eu m e a t : e t u b n aita_ b (Hear, hear.)' Will any y man say 6 brought to Che 1 1 bourg, and landed in this country r- such without our having a [- month's noticeof it?-(Near..) I wish we h ad a Comm i t t ee sitting -on- the national defences, and I sho u ld b e g l a d t o in quire of the Adjutant-General the necessary equipment to send . 60,000 men into a country, and more especially into a country that had a hostile fleet which ruled the seas; and was ready to intercept and cut off all retreat.--( Hear, hear.) I should like to ask what cavalry would beerequired, for I presume that when this army lands here, t hey do not mean to run about and catch borses.-(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I Should like to know what amount' of artillery a n d cemmis sariat stores would be requisite,-(Hear.) Such a statement as the one to' Which I have referred is a mockery of the good sense of , the people of England ; and the people of England, ley.the !public meetings_ which they held on this subject, and the' petitions which they presented to , this House, showed that they did not believe in the possibility of such 'a sudden invasion.-.(Hear, hear.) , But this argument is used, that the application of steam to the pu r p ose of naviga- , tion'expOses us to invasion. I believe I am to be followed by, a gentleman who has, more experience and technical' infer-.. :nation 'in these matters thee I have, and he will tell you how absurd it is to suppote that the appli,catton of steam to nevi - other gatioa has given advantages to the nations of Europe .over us. Why, coal and 'iron, the chief elements in steam 'navigation, we possess in greater abundance, and of finer quality, than alt -the nations of Europe • -put together. In cotton-spinning pr manufactures did . e steem give gr eater ad vantages to other countries than to Itmaland?-(H ear .) .It not why should steam give them greater advantages in its application to navigation ?-(Hear.) But it is said steam boats would enable an enemy to ell* ports at any . time to invade England. But . did not steam enable us also to send. out our steamboats to the ports of France? (Hear, -(Hear, hear) . wind ' that Formerly the , same blew the • French vessels towards our ports , prevented us from meeting - hear.) It was • then impossibl e to' those vessels---( Ilea'',.a . sail a line-of-battleship in the wino s_aye, but now, how_ .vessels to I3oulogue or ever the, winds blows, we can send our. :. to Cherbourg; and, what is more, they can remain before these ports like a rock, thus hermetically sealing up these pints.-- (Haar ' hear.) WrThen Lord Nelson wag eleckadi ng frequently driven avert fo the port' of Boulogne ' he was Y r three weeks together, but that , could not occur now' with The authorities of the steam-vossels e -(Hear, hear.) - have failed Post office can:tell you-bow often their steam-vessels of reaching that port.. Now this g ave 'us a greate r advan tage than any other- country, i b ec ause we had a f ar greater steam force, and I h av e no doubt it ncreased• our, defensive power ten times.-(hear, bear.) A erenhad just been laid or; the table of the House, from w • appears which, it ears that we are' possessed of 1,300 s t eam -boats. This is .a 'ergot number of steam-vessels than is possessed; by all the . nations ' a , - Europe put togithea - (Hear, ' heat.) 'And we are now building . others, which : Would give us double as- many as all the nations of the continent'of Eu ro. -I could not sav the sam e o f pe possessed.-([lsar, hear.) - ,a' sailing vess e l s , b ecause there are a l a rge MUD er of sailing vessels building .in , the Baltic ports, . but there are no means of constructing ,steamers in these ports.--(Hear ,'hear.) I will (met e t o you the evidence of naval men on this tell).- ject. Minkel Berkeley, „ thee 31st of March,lB4s,, before this absutd di sc uMicm .arcese, mays-7" The Executive Go-. vernmentOfEuglatid liaff it in their, power, at little or no expense; to'hava a fleet Of steamers equal not only to 'ranee, - but to thawliole world. Let them look at the ports of Lon don,-Liverpool, Glasgow, and all - our out ports, and they , would see what a vast number of steamships might in a very short time 'be made available for the purposes of a steam war." Admiral Dundan said, on the 26th of July, 1844, that we possessed 1,000 merchant' steamers, 280 of which were large enough to carry 32-peunders-a force which is sufficient to overcome the comb:l:Led fleet of the rest of the world. Tile Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Navy ne der Sir R. Peel's Government (Mr. Corry) .. said that in cae of a war w e were a bl e to command teatimes the force of any country on the continent, and that three months after a declaration of war not one of the merchant vessels could be found at s ea. - -(Hear, hear ) Do you sup pose that:the -French Government-do you 'Suppose that Louis Napoleon;.sylko-resided in this country-are ignorant of chase facts? -(-ilea:,i ' ll ' l o Why, France ;does not pos sess a single ocean steamer, acrd,i n v Hon: Friend the Mne e- • ber for Orkney -says that w e have in our mercantile marine 20-horse power. in steam for every one-horse pewer possessed , by France, and I believe he haa not exaggerated in thaleast. --(Hear, hear.) • We are told. that this seam navigation has made a bridge over the Chaenel, and this p ar r o t cry has been . taken up, and repetted . t r9m e' ne mouth to the other. But I hope that in future we are done for ever with this foolish no tion. well, then, if stelae haS been of such use to : bur ene mies by sea- in much had advante w h ich we share' - &tinily with them-how . raailgway es added to our sense ,_f security ' in a ie e rei n g us increased facilities for the transmission of troops , from one part of th e country to another ?•-(Hear.) I have here a few lines :from .the evidence of Sir W. Gor don, the Quartermaster-General, given before the Railway Committee e in,lo l ,4l.Whicla . spe..4-: -tame this very point,' he stated that in two Yeara ftoin U ' - ' nu -. oceruber 31 1841, to . ,_ember 30843, there were 130 17 ' - • 'men, - moved , 4 arsons-officers, 'Women, and children- by rallPrOad under his direc- tionsin Eegland. Speaking of railway's generally, he said- I . should say tint 'this mode of rail Way conveyance - has en- • abled the army, comparati ve l y to the demands made' upon it, a very small one, ecoado the work of a ver large one. You send a battalion of 1.000 men from L on d on to Manches ter in nine hours; that same battalion marching would cake seventeen days; and th ey ~ arrive at the eud of nine bours jnst as h as when they started." 'Well, Beres , or nearly so, that we ; are enable- now,. by la . we have the fact means of railways, to ac complish within ehe space of nine hour s what it took us seVenteen days to effect in the tim e of turnpike gates. therwe are told that we can tra naPorashirge a body of Fur troops " we could assemble iti Scotland from Edinburgh to Deafer in - twelve hours ; wheraaa thi3 was formerly not ' to be done under twentv-foue days. Is ' not this an enormous advantage? And does it not give us an iannenee control over the array we povess _ ? I am featly ashamed. to pursue this subj. :. - e- ferther, und I cannot be-. lieve that there is any man -eat least no men of sense and intelligence-who places any confidence in all this talk we have had lately about our, d e f enceless condition.-(" Hear, hear," and" Oh, oh," from the .OPeosition benches.) I have I to you that thernis no reason for all this alarm ; but I suppose ia the mind o s t _ of som e . persons who still believe in protection and such f haeir_ stiperstitions, there may be fouud to exist tome fears'o . i'rench invasioe.-(Lauehter.) I - really have to beg pardon of the French nation, and of the ,conetnon sense of this coountry for . even alluding to such dangers, though I even t d so b u t °h aYpotheticelly. , I myeelf have not . the grnalles idea that arty such exist more now than there did two yee i rs w alfc i e s and you are as strong now as you were then.' Ail 's Militia Bi.IY, is, that if you insist on forcing fer Ward thi e „ ee t , all events, first bring tant let th • home yolir fiee , s, , hich brisq" Pte " ' the country ascer tain that the Money .a and - let the already laid out has been properly expended;' o f- t h e French nation see that it is not- the people Englande but 'the Ekoctie tire- Government of 'the country that is bent • on re sisting Gentlemen to imaginaconry dsider angforers. one 1 would b eg Honourable - Inn -ment the - great pro gress that i 3 being anade in these day s ; a l W 1 h f ea t , menu ac tures, and in all the works of ingenuity and art. I do. not been h • believe that all we have• -etrii9g in this House about - the tendency towards Pnac is laniardinlf more than clap-trap and delusion. When I have theirwlourable Gentlemen - on both iides of the [louse express du in e uel.igf in the won derfal adVance that had been Me la the reat mostdi i FnliOrtant roves-. ofea extraordinarypossess-why, Me ne • of biter _ communication that we e vents, have a say I believe them to .be.sincere.; but I, at all conviction.that. improvements the tendency of, all these great a Sir, because ,is towards peace, and not towards evr• and because e I believe an danger:toexist to this, country, further defence, e n° - at have. beelegiven that we require e, 0 at all events, th rziat the pro gress of this Bill ; and I . h p . - Ili'', to withdraw tha thnli f il t4e Government may not be wi Ig looking am fo;. IT Ell , they may not refuse the returns to judge ho ly ', which, will enable the people of this countr y (Laad'dhders far , these ad ditional defences are called for.- (Loud an' amen . e j The lieh • Gentleman concluded by moving u on the Militia t i nt on the motion for going•into Comnaitte 1 1, " That to consider the . to :enable, this I louse the betterh provisions. of e effective force , the Militia Bill, a return of.,t of the royal 1 t be laid on if of arch , as . the table of the liiiV, on the list day the following particulars, . tiOuse; such return to contain number of crews • tie. ',First. The names, arinamenee, employed in and acti, : 3 Officers 'of all lid I‘lejesty's ship* then employed, and and the service, 'the stations on which they were employed on each Station of time each vessel has been tads from earn - n - apectively, distinguishing steam-Ve ug-vessels, elled by screws ; from those e - ; and alba - steam-vessels prop 4,striting the nominal hors e pelled by e paddl.3-wheels, art vessel. s econdly. The e same oi•,t4e-'eagi4eB of each i k • 3 With.,thS ports et aa ae IPf all reserve oe. adyance A T' o,f the periods which.which the . are ; reow.plaped, and a statementto see in a. 6. .•,. ; , w... . sla t them . e -- .-• stn.a", :for ould . be required to . . siueration of the 13 . 11 . ' . l - . 0 %in actual sfyy...ic ! Am- .that theafter the production of such COMmitteh be pOstpoued until, .„ return." '.' to second the amendninnt lie': AND 7 . * RSON, in rising ~ from no factious feel iii' . ' ifonse be did so 'from , . begged to assure the . h Hon. benttemen opposite • ' ' tive. While t e . ~.. s or party nto - .• . • g quite willing to support h liehes lie Wa Sat on 010T-ref:miry -e , bi c h they might propose them hi any • good measures ..:_,fl ose all their obnoxious white he. was equallypiepared het , t , i r had opposed the second proposition% :For this reason ' reading of,this Bill, as .heshould have done that ,of th e l ate Government, as well as the emendatent of the Noble L or d t h e. over, had resolved to Member for Tiverton. Tile House, nun' , , ~_ . .t, was 01 ,the utene,t consider the Bill, and therefore 1 the largest • ' importance that they should have - ipossible b e t h em to de amount of informatien before them, to enable that cide on the reiptiretnents of the measure: r r eason, he believed, that tl 're t ie urns moved for' by his Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding were ' highly necessary for the propea , conaideratien of the. Bill in .-Committee. He could not help expressing his surprise at the whole tone of the debate.—(Hear, hear.) It really seemed to him that they would ignore England's being a maritime nation at all.—(hear, hear.) It appeared to him as if it was a Parliament in Poland, meditating in what way an incursion from Russia was to he resisted. quite forgetting that we bad a moat around us called the British Channel.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord th e Member for Tive r t on h a d t a lk e d o f 60,000 - men coming to Cherbourg and walking from their barracks on beard ship, and landing in England without anything been known about •ite but the Noble Lord wholly omitted one important con sideration, that there was no railway to Cherbourg, nor was it likely there would be. But still, admitting _these 60,000 men were at Cheebourg:, there was yet a want remaining Matt necessary to facilitate their operations, and that was ships to walk into.e--(Hear, hear.) He would try to throW sCale light upon this meter. First, then, with regard to those terrible steam bridges on which these men were to cross the Channel ; he would beg to read to the House a statement of the comparative strength of the English and French steam navy, that respecting the English fleet being taken from the navy estimates of 1818 ; that of France from their official navy. list. In 1818 it appeared that Great Britain had belonging to the royal navy 174 steam ' vessels of all el ices, being an aggreg:te of . 41,480- horse power; or, deduCting pickets, tenders, end yachts there were 103 eteam-ye.ssels available fur. purpo , e. of war';' namely, line-of-battle ship, 23 frig, tee, -18 sleoPs, and 28 grin •vrisselee of an agerea,re of 32,327 horse power. • By the gent - Generale de la Marine, winch is the official French- navy list, of the year Pelt), the steam navy of France consisted of 78 vessels of all classes, 'of an aggregate of 17,740 horse-poiver. • Bet, de aluctiug 20 smell vessels called avisos, in like manner as is done from the British steam navy, it will leave for purposes of war a - French Steam navy of only 58 .vessels, ;lamely, 17 frigate:, 1 i corvettes or sloops, and.2o avisos or, the first elass—enswering to what we class as gala-vessels-- beingein- all 15,740 hoese-power. Se that at these periods, say about three years since, the British War steam navy was nearly_ double thn• number of vessels, and something more than double the steam power, of that of. Fiance: He Would now make a comparison of the commercial steam navies of..the two countries. In the year 1.84 a an estimate, ' furnished from . the Board of Trade gave the whole com =mercial steam shipping of France at 3,000 horse-power, and about 10,000 tons, and 'he believed no great addition had been since made to it. He (Mr. Anderson) stated recently, when he brought forward the question of rendering a part of our commercial steam navy available for the national defence in case of need, that the United Kingdom had about 1,300 steam-vessels. of all classes, in its commer cial navy, of an aggregate of 300,000 tons, - and upwards of 100,000 horee-power. lie stated that as an approximate estimate. Since then, a • return which he,moved fur had been printed. It showed that, on the Ist of January last, the registered steam-vessels of the United Kingdom amounted to 1,218 vessels; and as he was aware from private, but ac curate, sources of information, that there were at least 100 steam-vessels in advanced states of construction, or since completed, at -the various ports of the kingdom, he con sidered his statement was fully borne out. 11e had made an analysis of the return alluded to, that is of vessels of 200 tens and upwards, which would stand thus : Yesselsof 200 to 500 tons 264.. tonnage 86,416 tons. 500 1 3 000 , „ llB „ 73,461 „ 1,000 2,000 „ 34 „ . 85,013 )9 , 2 000 3,000 a - „ 23,155 ~ ' 425 vessels; 243,045 tons. The vessels of four companies now employed in the .ocean Mail Contract service, and which were under their con tracts available for warlike operations, were 70 vessels, amounting, in the aggregate, to 93,421 tons, and 32,500 horse power, being more than double the power of the whole French steam navy in 1849, and more efficient both for speed and capability of armament. After this statement, he trusted. the House would not be at all alarmed at the idea of a bridge of French steamers being built across the Channel. This country possessed such an over whelming steam power that not a single French soldier would be able to leave port. There were steamers enough to blockade all the French ports, and to prevent any vessels from leaving them. He felt no hesitation in seconding the amendment. The question having been put, Mr. STAFFORD said the Hon. Seconder of this motion seemed to be animated by a somewhat different spirit from that of the Hon. Gentleman who moved it. While the Hon. Member for the West Riding. expressed himself as dissatis fied with the amount of knowledge respecting the navy which was then in possession of the House, the don. Member fur the o:kneys, having got a return seemed to have got all he wished - for, and, except in the last sentence of his speech, made not _the slightest allusion to the motion before the House.—(Laughter.) The House must, he thought, have observed with astonishment the amount of nautical lore in reference not only to the commercial marine, but to ships of war, displayed by the lion. Member for the West Riding. Where the Ilan. Member had studied the subject it was not for him to say; but that a gentleman professing to be with out official information should be able to say that six ships should be taken from one station, nine from another, one from New Zealand, and'that a certain number of ships should be left in the •Mediterranean, must certainly appear astonishing to those'who were not aware how much time the Hon. Gen tleman had given to the•studer. Now, was this the only as pect of the case? After the Hon Member and his party bad voted 44.000 men without a, single comment, he now brought before the House a motion whose solo and specific object was delay. lie was very much disappointed to find, 83 the lion. Gentleman proceeded, that he had no explanation to offer in reference to this change of tactics.--(llear, bear.) Now he put it to the Hon. Gentleman, what effect these returns could possibly have. Were they to suppose that the towns which the ,Hon. Gentleman had named would be influenced by these returns; or that the returns would tend to diminish the amount of support which this measure had received, not merely from places which enlightenment had reached —(Hear, and laughter)—but from places as important and as much deserving of respect as those to which he had on that occasion, as formerly, narrowed his views? (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) must here protest against the system of explaining away the majorities of that House. These whom they (the Ministerial Members) represented had as much right to have their opinions and the votes of their representatives respected as the constituencies of the district to which the Honourable Gentleman was in the habit of referring.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem ber said that 6,500,0001. was spent in our naval defences. It the Honourable Gentleman included the packet service he ought also to include other items which had equally little to do with defences. Did he mean to say that all the scientific branches, which were as useful to the corn rnercial marine as to the navy, and the freight of troops, were referable to naval defences? Such representations were a f a ir sample of the fairness a n d accuracy w hi c h charae ,terised the ii(M. Gentleman's statement. As regarded the precise monber of vessels employed on any particular station, the Hon. Gentleman might take an arbitrary figure, but no Board of Admiralty could consider itself tied down to the maintenante of a particular number of vessels in any one month.--(Hear , hear.) It would be guided by the commie nications which it received; and that House would, he be lieved, never require confidential communications on mat 'tors of the highest interest to be divulged. Take the case of the West coast of Africa. If one vessel. or two vessels more were fohud to bi necessary for the end in view, would the Hon. Gentleman say that they should be withheld? The: Commander-in-Chief on different stations often stated that they required more ships.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. .Bright); and In spite of that cheer, he must say that, in bis opipion, each persons, being on the spot, were far better able to judge than the Honourable Gentleman. The lion. Mernber for the West Riding quoted' the precedent of 1793. The delay of the war at that period arose from the want of preparation; but let that precedent count for what it might before, the Hon. Gentleman himself de stroyed its weight when he said in a subsequent part of his speech that steam had placed us in a new position, and that our forefathers would not have thought of undertaking what steam would enable us to accomplish with ease. -(Bear, hear.) That was the real state of the case. When the Hon. Gentleman spoke of the facilities with which our own troops might be moved across this island, he appeared entirely to forget that similar facilities existed in a neighbouring coun try, that not only soldiers but crews of vessels might be ra pidly conveyed from the south, to man the twenty•six vessels in the northern ports. The lion. Gentleman himself could not deny that it was owing to the increase of our fleets that peace had, been preserved, and that our preparations had compelled our enemies—if we had any—to respect us (Hear, hear.) The motion submitted to the House was one which had never been granted by any Administration. It.had been repeatedly brought forward, but it had always been held that to grant such a return would be highly detrimental to the service. The statement which he ( Mr. Stafford) made in reply to the motion of the lion. Mem -1:12r 'for the Orkneys, showed that the Government did not wish to conceal any information which they considered it right to give; but this motion could not be granted unless the House resolved to constitute itself the Board of Admiralty. In matters of this nature it was necessary to repose confidence in the responsible ad visers of the Crown. Some of the particulars included in the motion had already been laid on the table; but the at tempt to obtain a return of " the names, armaments, number of crews and officers of all her Majesty's ships employed on active service," &c , - muitsbe met by the Government with a positive denial. Its immediate effect would be to give more information than the Government ever yet granted ; and as to the animus with which the Honourable Gentleman brought it forward, the motion went to overturn and reverse the whole system of naval management—a step which he trusted the House was not prepared to take. —( Hear, hear.) There might be defects in the Admiralty, and he hoped they would be rectified ; but as it had been managed, and he hoped would continue to be ma naged, it' had protected the commerce of the country and preserved our shores inviolate • and be asked the House not to declare to the Commanders-in-Chief abroad that this country bad no confidence in them, or to show that it was determined to take the executive into its own hinds, by demanding information which the responsible servants of her ' Majesty 'did not consider it consistent with their duty to grant.--(Cheers.) Mr. CORRY concurred with the Hon. Member for the West Riding that, in discussing the question of our national defences, it was not possible to separate , the military _fieo n al the naval services;_ but he also concurred with .the I.l e _o er : Gentlemen the Secretary for the Admiralty, that then illation asked for by the Hon. Member for the WO4 d in g e ought not to, be given by the Admiralty. If thay tion were given, it would throw bat very little light " wiser subject, and the country would not be at all toe „ a fo n t . h e thiongh it, unless it were accompanied did he thinkthat 'naval force that might be opposed to it. Nor he production the consideration ought to be proffered for -A. a returns of the 'of any information pa the subject of our s t informa cause the official Navy List contained ullt d the stations of tion of the names, the armaments, an, naval forces, be. le e had taken the the ships in commission.—(Hear, fish N a vy Lists, trouble to compare the French and the .bng. ct with which and lie thought he should be able to put tne House in pos • • session of sufficient information e prentieeship to the he` was necessarily familiar fronl linfoPrined that the naval Admiralty. The liouse need not be on the au Je bi greeter than those forces of this 'country were incomparably Our nay) . was of , Franca--( Hear, hear) ---but al !s uhS" gave great advan -09 Viliica greater, there were circtunstenc circumstances were the asges to the /french navy. France, by gesgraphkai position of Fran i c ' e l : ° e se e distribution of the fleets of the two countriee eted t whole of their reserved which they obtained men lor d there were considerable ship of war, while in Eng toaninan the ships for service.— . difficulties in finding men first of these advantages, that (Heir.) With respect to the known that both countries of geographical position, it w a s home, while for th e E n in the Mediterranean, but retained their largest sq ua d rons 'that sea was for the Frenehna vv . n the event of the Frencgh lish it was a fotaign statinoo being required for immediate squadron in the Medite7asan dispatch from tooulon would 4 service, a telegraphic it would s take days to send not require so many hoursta. a If the French Government orders from London to M sent a telegraphic messa ge to Toulon , there was no reason hOtlld not steam to Bre s t i n a fort why the French fleet s night. It was true the most F r ench had aimportant com - ation'to maintain in the Mediterranea n , b u t th e steam munic navy of d'erra F rance in the e h at nean was four times as hat of England, so t t a considerable portion great as t • ht be spared. -ju another respect, Toulon might contri . MAY 4, EVENING, 1852. bute to the naval force suddenly available. There were at Toulon seven ships of the line frilly manned by 6,000 men. It would be the height of rashness to send those crews round by sea, but they might be conveyed overland complete. By »ending their crews overland, the whole of the French navy in reserve might be directed against our shores. But the main advantage was in the difference of the distribution of the French navy as compared with that of England. This country had most important colonial and mercantile interests to protect, while those of France were compara tively small. The consequence was, that the greater part of the navy of France was on the shores of France, at the command of her Government, while the greater part of the English navy was out of reach, and was unable to give us any assistance in case of attack upon our shores. (Hear, hear.) _On the Ist of January, 1852, the distribution of the naval force cf the two countries was as follows England had 138 seaegoing ships in commission,exclusive of packets, with 33,000 men afloat. The French had 137 ships and 25,000 men. The English ships upon fbreign stations were 108, with 21,000 men; while the French had, inclod ing the Levant, only 57 ships abroad, with 7,000 men. England, had at home, includ;nz, the Lisbon squadron, ordered home, 30 shi - :s, with 1 9 ,000 men, if their comple ments were full, while. the French bad at home, including the Toulon divhion, 70 ships, with 18,000 men. Toe real criteri,in was the arn 4 unt of actu:el force, and the proportioa was as 33 to 25 betweel England and Franc., but the pro portion abroad was as 21 to 7, while in the force at home it wt as 12 to 18 . So that while the total force of was oss.e-quatter mote than that of P rance , we h a d a b roa d it r la ce i i h t o sue i n ni e te . • - - st te i he T a o t a , , rdeo h st e l tb a h r l e .: three trnies •as gr ea t a f o r ce, but only two-thirds as great a gand member m o b? , rsr, amen s e p t s o ore bro 1 ri th i a m T6° House would observe stations. This arose from our sending the greater part of fign to j f a o 1. 7 foreign n s s h t i a p t s h a ni n s d , o while ' r t g h e e • s F h r i French 1 s sailing; retained a n 1 h s e t eWuhno- easels,of th eir steamers for the hems station. The French had not a siogie 'elriP of the line, nor a Single steam-frigate, nor even a tast eless steam corvette abroad. The largest steam -vessel which France had upon a foreign station was the smallest class of corvettes, of which she had only six abroad. England, on the contrary, maintained the greater part of her most power ' ful steam-frigates and steam -corvettes abroad. France had two steam line-of-battle ships, 11 steam-frigates, and 19 corvettes, making 32 in commission, of which only six cor vettes were abroad. England had three steam line-of battle ships, 12 frigates, and 28 corvettes in commission, of which only 14 were at home, and 29 abroad. Of the lat ter there were one of 800 horse-power, one of 650, four from 500 to 600, seven from 409 to 500, five from 300 to 400, eleven from 200 to 300 horse-power. Excluding packets, England had in commission 64 steamers of 18,900 horse power, while France had 77 steamers of 17,500 horse-power. Of steamers ready for commission, England had 31 of 10,500 horse-power, while France had 30 steamers of 82,000 horse-power. The total number of ships in commission and .ready was, in England, 95, with 29,400 horse-power; and in France, 107, with 25,700 horse-power. But England had abroad 47 steamers of 13,300 horse-power, while France had only 21 steamers of 3,000 horse-power. En ;land had at home, including the Lisbon squadron, 17 of 5,634 horse-power; while France had no less than 56 of 14,400 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) The merchant steam navy had been spoken of as useful for the defence of the country, but when war broke out, if the Government took a North American, or West Indian, or Mediterra nean steamer, how could a communication be kept up between England and her colonies?—.(Hear, hear.) The French also, under their maritime system, could man their navy with greater facility than we could man ours, and had a large reserve of sailors, well trained, available to be called upon at any time to serve in the navy. By the last French register, after deducting the men in the navy in the merchant service, there were 45,000 liable to be re quired of whom about one-half had already served a term of four years; but we, with a registry of 210.000 seamen, found it difficult to raise 30,000 men, and all untrained; whereas the French had enough trained to man the whole reserve. Under these circumstances it was obvious that we ought not to trust our national defence exclusively to our navy, and therefore he was anxious to support this Bill. As to our land force, his Right Hen. Friend the Member for Wilts had the other night demolished its supposed efficiency; for it turned out, that instead of having an army of 103,000, or even 60,000, we had only somewhere about 20,000 ; and when Hon. Gentlemen talked of the military defence of our shores, and our mercantile marine, they should recollect it was impossible for merchant steamers, our dockyard batta lions, or our Royal Marines, to be in two places at once. The dockyard men were very valuable for the local defence of our dockyards; but they could not be removed from the dockyard to the field—(Hear, hear)—and it was the same with the coast-guard. They would be required for the re venue purposes, and, therefore, the steamers cou ld not b e manned with them. The Hon. Member for Westminster claimed the marines as an auxiliary to the army; but if a war took place, so far from the marines going to increase the army we should have 3,000 less, because they would be required for our ships. For these reasons he thought we ought to have a Militia Bill, and he preferred that mode, because if the regular army were increased, after two or three years passed over it would be reduced; and, secondly, because, although militiamen might not, in the first instance, he fit to be trusted in the field, they would take off a great deal of garrison duty from the regular troops, and leave a larger number, therefore, for actual service. He trusted, however, that if this increase of force were agreed to, the Govern ment would not relax in their regard for naval defences, which must be considered as the most important. Upon that part of the question he, to a certain extent, agreed with the Hon. Member for the West Riding. lie thought a great addition might be made to our home squadron, not so much by reducing the number of ships on foreign stations as by r e d uc i n g th force on those stations.—( Hear.) On some stations steamers of 100 horse power would do as well as those of 800—( Hear)—for it had happened that in all our operations since steam was introduced into the navy all the work had been done by small steamers —(Hear, hear.) It was s in China, Parana, Burmah, and the other day at Lagos. He thought we ought to maintain a large squadron on the home station, and that it was a strange arrangement that British interests in all parts of the world should be pro tected, and those at home neglected. lie hoped, therefore, the Government would maintain on the home station a re spectable squadron. As to the question of national defence, none could be more important. In that respect he was a com plete Protectionist, and he trusted the Government would not be deterred by any consideration from adopting such measures as they might think necessary to secure the defence of our shores. Mr. CARTER (who, it will be observed, took the oaths and his seat in the early part of the evening) said, he should not have so soon addressed the House had it not been that the session was likely to be so short that he might not have many chances of speaking.—(LaughNr.) It seemed to him that the speeches of the two Hon. Gentlemen who had spoken were no answers to the motion for returns of our naval forces ; and, indeed, went rather to support it, for they went to show that the greater part of our naval forces were abroad, and the obvious inference was that they ought to be brought home. He certainly did not think the mere fact of the Hon. Member for the West Riding being a member of the Peace Society a bar to his forming a just estimate of the position of our mili tary establishments. In conclusion, the lion. Member said he rejoiced that up 'll this, the first occasion of a dd ress i ng th e House, he Was enabled to, lift up his voice in favour of peace, and in deprecation of that expensive system of armaments which had se long oppressed the people of this country. Captain BOLDERO said that the present motion pre. tended one thing, but really meant another.—(Hear, hear.) It was part of the political creed of the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) to oppose all estimates, more particularly those relating to the military defences of the country--(Hear, hear)—and whatever might be the nature of the Militia Bill, that Honourable Member would be found voting against it. That part of the motion which asked for information as to the present state of our defences was wholly superfluous. The Navy List actually supplied all the information that could be desired. Then, what was the real object of the mo tion? Delay. Even had the Government supplied the required statistics, this motion would have been pressed by Hon. Gentlemen, who, whilst they clamoured for a dissolue tion, lost no. opportunity of obstructing public business —(Hear, hear.) Such factious conduct, he thought, came with a peculiarly bad grace from the Manchester school. — (Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman the Member for bianchester. (Mr. M. Gibson) had, the other night, attempted to fix a charge of inconsistency on the Noble Lord the Member for London, inasmuch as that, in 1848, he advo cated an addition to our standing army, and he deprecated a similar proceeding in 1852. But in 1848 we had 15,000 more rank and file than in the b eg i nn i ng o f 1852. He (Captain Boldero) should prefer an addition to the army to having recourse to the militia, and would adopt the plan suggeste d , or by the Honourable a nd G a ll an t Officer the Member Windsor (General Reid) for recruiting in advance!. It for Windsor been contended that France was making no mibta_rY pr.e parations They had 'recently learned, however, French Government were augmenting . the chasstebuarts the d e Vincennes by to the militi a ervice to thought that by limiting the term' of force he 7,0 00 men , an d were, forming a local corps o f 20,000 men in Algona. With regard fi ve years' three an advantage would accrnse. A bounty of 61. or 7 1 . spread over the latter period would 'yield iel and this would be felt q a boonuite yhytdhe aboutrural population. n a la w ti e o a n k . , He agreed with the. hianchesterSch(oHolearth, afrtotnihetrheewuasanno. immediate cause of fear of invasion.--( chester party.) The appr e h ens ion that existed was founded on the political state. of France at this moment. And what was the state cif France? A n un mitigated despotism, ba c k e d by an army of hirelings. B a t there was no dan ger o f . Louis Napoleon invading our _shores.e would oa he did, ly notdeiede,urheodwever, and we were only true to ourselves, he succeed.—(Hear, hear.){ Mr. BRIGHT said, the Secretary to the Admiralty had taken upon himself felLetr,Roirdiantg, all events the st osnee e r ec a u t r t e h t e e information h lion. Member , for the we obtained about nav a l a ff airs. —(Hear.) As the S e cretary to the Admiralty had on l y b een in office six been_ previously_ known to be v er y pro -1 veveersrebdal:inmg naval affairs—(A laugh) —he scarcely seemed n. & position to assail the Me m b er for the West Rill' seem ed 'a Rid ing, who, at all events, had for three yea rs b een a close at tendant upont . h e Committee of that. House which h a d made it a speci al business thoroughly t o i nvest i gate and master the su bj e oe—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had just sp a wn sa id that th e o bj ect of this motion was delay; but be contended that it was to place before the House exist ing facts with regard to th e means of defence, so that, hay.. i n g them plainly before them, the House would be in a better position to discuss the propriety of any further expenditure for military purposes. He maintained that it was one of th e most important p ro p os i t i ons that could be submitted to the House, for it involved this striking circum stance, that it was i n t en d e d near l y to double the num ber of persons who were connected with arms, and notwith standing that the p ream bl e o f t h e 42d of forth that a milit ar y f orce un d er the eorge 111. set command of officers possessing landed property w ithi n Great tain was essen tial to the Constitution, he took the liberty of stating that all military establishments beyo n d what could be shown to be absolutely necessary were contrary to the Constitution h and to the spirit o f re p resen t at i ve institutio He maintained that the the Gove measure of Lear, hear.) hostile to the industry o f th e country,and rnment was st whic i h nju w ri o ou l s d to n free doin, and that there w as no interest prejudiced by the est a bli s h ment of a militia, unless u it not t uld be proved to be absolutely necessary for the safety of the country. He would di scuss t h is question, however, only upon, the principles of expediency and policy. asked to spend 350,000/. more. They were The 15,000,0001. already voted loft us in a most insecure and perilous position, but add this 350,000/. and we might rest satisfied that England was safe from invasion. —(A laugh.) 353,000/. wee the interest upon a principal sum of 12,000,0001., so that , having already invested 1,200,009,000/. of the property of the country, this le,oooooo/. was to be added to make us perfectly safe Before they could ask for this money they were bound to show biro either that there was souse now danger, or that there load been discovered some insecurity of which Parliament had been hitherto ignorant. If there were a new danger, where was it? The Noble Lord the Member for London had himself dwelt on our peaceful rela tions with foreign countries, and the Noble Member the Tiverton, and the Right lion. Secretary of State_ f e or sam h Home Department, had been equally emphatic on t h e Hon, and Where, then, was the new all that, and Learned Member for Sheffield had repudiatedreally did not danger? The n and intimated that those distinguished men mean what they said—that it was a disguis e— that the fact ' woe, th at they -had- great - fears of an - attackfrora France, and especial suspi c i on of the p resen t ruler of' tha, I Now, he did not believe that ; but, for the sake ment he weuld admit that the supporters i Bill did believe it. Well, where were the for it? It should be remembered that t' always a party in this country in favour of a p; ' sort of a panic —and that a cry of suspicion agaius, and for consequent military expenditure, was alway Thee should remember that Sir T. Hastings, a distinguished military officer, insisted in his evidence before the Com mittee that the French had a burning desire to come to this country to revenge Waterloo, and he quoted as one of his authorities the Bishop of Madagascar.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But had the people of France shown a single symptom that they were anxious to pick a quarrel with this ' 1 country? Neither in the time of Louis Philippe, nor under Ithe Provisional Government of Lamarrine, nor under the Republic and National Assembly, ner under the President, I had the people of France exhibited the slightest hostility to England. If such a feeling had existed, however, surely 1 under all those changes it would have been manifested.— ! (Hear, hear.) It had not been manifested, and he con ! tended, therefore, that as tar as the people of France were e , 3nccrned, there was not one saadow cf ground for this (:ill.—(Hear, hear.) Look at the conduct of our press. tie I eel not wish the Engli:;h press to shut its mouth when any ! thing was eitacted in foreign nations which it believed to b 3 contrary to freed...on ; but our press had for two months maintained an incessant daily lire of accusations against the r , ',e,., ,imt too often aga!n , t the peop!e ce . Frail e. The I . :curb press during a:1 that time, though under the control of the Presider.;, had never retaliated, or attempted to create in the minds ca' the French people a feeling ants ; palistic to the pecple of this country. He would admit, for ' the sake of argument ; that tne French President had shown greed of power, that he was cool, reserved, calculating, and unscrupulous; but it must be remembered that he was ap proved by the majority of the French population ; and, if 1 there were ow, reason more than another why he was so, it ' was because he had not plunged them into war. He ad mitted that they did not like the theory of his government, but if the French people, disagreeing in that, y e t supporte d him because he had given _them a permanent or temporary repose, the House might depend upon it that they would not rest a single instant if he should manifest the slightest inten tion of sending a piratical or marauding expedition against this country. There were no preparations made in France. No body had shown that any more ships had been added to the French navy or troops to the French army since December last. He was surprised that among the extraordinary fallacies his t which had be en s t ate d i n the H ouse upon t hi s ques ti on , no one had v entured to state that Louis Napoleon had done what renownedo invade u n i c ,: l u e g w l s a n s dr v said i z t . ,o that te he eone had p whenut up proposed the CThhaenu es s. y t A o story L on d o n o , f " finger -posts u p on all the roads converging towards Boulogne marked " wthiitsh kind d han w d ou po ld inting across have created a panic muc h more successfully than some things which had be en s t ate d with that object. He recommended Hon. and Gallant Members to try it the ntime neat they wished to create a panic.—(L h aug ter.) There were two suppositions on which the House was that invited to proceed with this measu r e. Th e fi rst was there would be a de claration of war and then • • an invasion • and the second was that there would be a piratical and n; undertaken in the night. Now, if there a ra w u e d s inf expedition of war nobody bad attempted to deny that, according o t t ir e usages of civilized nations—if nations that went to fear de served to be called civilized—( Hear, hear)—there must he negotiation and delay to such an extent as to allow time for some of that immeasurable force which the Hon. Mem ber for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) had spoken of being brought into the Channel to defend our shores.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had spoken of 50,000 men landing in one night. [An Hon. Member--60,000.] Well, 60,000; the Noble Lord was not particular to a 10,000 ; but he (Mr. Bright) believed that 60,000 were just as likely as 50,000, and 70,000 just as likely as 60,000. But what would Louis Napoleon gain by adopting that course ?—for men did not act without motives. He would ask the soldiers in that House to say whether they thought that the French army were likely to see any glory—he was not saying in a war with England, but in a piratical expedition against this country ? Did they believe that Louis Napoleon would be safe in the French Government one single month after he took the step which some Members of that House assumed that he was likely to take? Did they not think that Russia, Austria, Prussia, would league themselves against such an attempt on the part of the Government of France ?—for, was it not worth more to the settled Governments of Europe that the ancient and venerable monarchy and the settled in stitutions of England should be maintained, rather than that a firebrand, such as Honourable Members wished to make out the President to be, should rule over the French nation ?—(Hear, hear.) If, then, there was no other motive the motive of self-preservation alone would prevent Louis Napoleon from taking such a step against the people and Government of this country. But, to return to the state ment of the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, with re spect to the probability of 60,000 men landing in one night, he begged to say that it was an incredible statement for a statesman of his experience to make. But, assuming that this invading force were to escape our fleet, and that our troops were dispersed and unable to meet them, how did the R'ght Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department expect to be able to get the militia to meet them? Why, with the help of the electric telegraph he would be able to get the dispersed soldiers to the coast before those agricultural labourers, weavers, and mechanics had got on their clothes.--(Laughter.) In his opinion, no case whatever had been made nut in favour of the present Bill. Ile protested against the inconsistency of the House. In his boyhood he remembered that the cry was for reliance upon " the wooden wails of England," and poets made songs and odes of all kinds on the subject, such as— " Britannia needs no bulwarks, No towers along the steep ; Her march is o'er mountain wave, Her home is on the deep." But now the wooden walls as well as the military ser vice were forgotten for the moment for the blundering, miser able, undisciplined horde which was proposed to be brought together by this Id ilitia Bill.—(hear.) The Hon. and Gal lant Member for Chippenharn had stated that the army had been reduced since I e4B. Well, that very fact ought to be a warning both to that lien. Gentleman and the Govern ment, because the military expenditure at that time was such—amounting as it did to 17,000,0001., 18,000,0001., or 19,000,000/. a year, that the people were positively alarmed and horrified at the course which the Government were pur suing, and insisted it; on a reduction; and he warned the present G ivernnient that if they either passed the present Militia Bill, or added to the army without making out a better case than they lead yet been able to do, they too would ere long be obliged to yield to the popular demand for military retrenchment.--( (fear, hear.) His opinion was, that if there was anything like a real, thorough, imminent danger in the case, there was not a soldier, or a policeman, or a man in any way connected with . the military service in the kingdom who mig be made available for the ht not . such A pur poses of defence, for he was sure that in , t e event any county, city, borough; parish, cr l a m: d ec oke would to its own peace, and leave the military f the P reneral def P ence.— at the hands of Government or 6 ) But the fact WAS that the pr , s e ent was no (Hear, hear. thing more nor less there Ithan a mere panic, than which was nothing, in his opine,' . n more adverse to genuine statesmanship.pa triotism Sometimes a political panic was got up for and truethe purpose of trading upon it. Last year the bishops got up an ecc lesiastical panic and traded upon it, and this year th e military service, which wad • s to increase the military expenditure, were always anxious panic.—(Hear,hear.) o long S trading upon a military p into neglect, and had been said that in the ago as the time of Tacitus it and the military pro ace military science course of a long peace and to fall fession were apt to be forgotten a disturbance and alar m t this that all this it was to prevent had been created, and in order th a t more and more mo ue y might be voted for military e xPe nditure.—(Hear, h ear. ) He (Mr. Bright) would take u p on himself to say t h at the Noble Lord the Member . ber for Tiverton was th e f a th er - e Lord was in favour of a Militia of this Bill. The Noble In it 158.--(Hear,hear.)truth, Was that Bill in and the Noble Lord did Noble Lord's hobby, it. II presumed that in the exercise of his great influence e ble Lord the Member over the No .had dragged that Noble Lord into his views of for London he the qu es ti on _ ; but what was the Noble Lord afraid of ? He could h ar dl y b e serious i n a nticipating an invasion of 50,000 men from a raler whose extraordinary conduct in December last he had thought it right to applaud. He (Mr. Bright) was not sure that in his dispatch the .Noble Lord did not say that he thought the peace of Europe would be made safer by the coarse L o u is Napoleon took upon this occasion.—(l.leir, ,hear.) But he would say at once that the Noble Lord was no authority w ith him on questions of this nature.— A not pretend to set his opinion against h( laugh.) He did t House probably th oug h t the Noblee Noble Lord's. The authority that h e (Mr. Bright) Lord a much better Ministerial benches.) The views of the Noble Lord with re gard to a militi a w political schemes. T,re perfectly consi s t en t w ith his The 'establishment of a militia would liberate so many soldiers fro m f ore i gn service. The creed o f the Noble Lord, so far as he (Mr. Bright) had observed, had always been in favour of uni versal rdiplomac y and incessant interference with other countries. lie wished h always to have the power, as e always seemed to have the disposition, of cajoling or bully ing somebody or some foreign • (Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleaiatlel n l t e r m Y b — er for Sheffield, who was his great champion two years ago, on one occasion called the N o bl e Lord "a Lucifer ago, on (Mae Bright) presumed that this great military force was required as an exti ngu i s h er in case of any case of incendiarism break ing out.—( Renewed laughter.) But be thought the country had already paid enough for some of the p ro j ects of the Noble L or d with regard to Africa, Brazil, and elsewhere.— (Cries of " Divide.") The efforts of the Noble Lord to do so much for freedom abroad, while he did SD little for it at home, reminded hint of one of the characters in the new work of Mr. Dickens, so much so, that he felt disposed to call him the Mrs. Jellaby of statesmen.—(Laughter.) He opposed the Bill, because no case of urgent necessity had been made out, and no proof had been adduced that the fleets and troops of this country were insufficient. Military men differed in everything with respect to this Bill except that the Government plan would be useless for defence. He wished the House to bear in mind that every argument which had been used in favour of the present Bill, or for sa increase of our forces, would be just as powerful next session in favour of an additional increase, for what they were dis cussing was not so much a question of fact as of impression and sentiment.—(Cries of "Divide!") He should not trouble the House by entering into the details of the Go vernment Bill—( Hear, hear)—because he objected not only to the present Bill, but to any increase of force in subtild: tion of ,that proposed, there being no case of , ece s ,. S Z made out. There was one thing he would tell the D th .7 t , o$ Secretary, for it was an argument he could apprecaaa a the there was scarcely any one who had been conne ct w it ° ,oh I") militia 50 y ears ago but was ruined in character.--(h had ex _ H e was stating the experience of the very mellold enough to plained the matter to him, for he wasnot that SO far as their remember it himself, but he (believed the m en connected industrious avocations were concerneds were injured in with the militia, on retiring from the service , ts ._ re.... _ it (Oh, oh, character, morals, and in their prospsec lu a addressing Christian and cries of " No.") When hotiown on a subject of this Da representatives of a Christian n ' I'l 3o ' to show that further ex lure—when he was endea voitlitroineni 5 was unnecessary, he penditure for thatwarlikerr:i his arguments would he fairly shonld, at least, e xpect ) The Honourable and Learned considered.—(Bear. hear. e el on a former occasion took on Member for Slieni t Pe called the p e ace party--(Hear him to sneer at whs ved, es lie appeared to court,ashe hear)—and herec 7 the'Hou„. But the ers from o pposite s id e o • peace party could the oPP° -1 • thepeace party would d those seem , , stand party—and if they endeavoured to introduce t h e war hip and into legislati into statesmanship , .. on some principles of morality--(Laughter)—they could afford to be sneered at. It was a lamentable thing that, though 3,000 years had passed since those sculptured marbles were first worked which so many had seen in the British Museum, yet at that very moment, after 1,800 y ears of Christianity, they, were that night engaged, and of not reluctantly on the part many, in precisely the same sort of proceedings described on those marbles, where were pictured armed men, horses, chariots, processions, battles, and captains—(Laughter) . and no doubt there were priests too now, as there were then, who blessed the arms of the Assyrians, and oflere d thanksgivings to the gods for slaughter. He believed the Bill not to be one yf 11101 gentlemen connected with the k'• 1 11 1 at •(' e u ' s ' lei•!** ,0/ 1 ) an i c 1%-% A Fra tys ready. .(31).' inguished '1