The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-04 00:00:00

s . -. , , . bait y_on those wlio hatl e calfilled it....—Theejnatifiesetlen of — it - TratremrgeertFelie-Ccuneilesealro - cetrefreranSouth -.:',Toltbh.egainst , - vas to be found in this, that the recovery c ou ld not b e effected the Bill. without incurring worse evils than attended the abandonment Viscount .73 . TRANGFO RD begged to call th e a tt en ti on o f I of it: What did the Hon. Gentleman propo s e ? Did he pro- tboir Lordships to a petition preneeed by the Noble Vieoount peso that the money should be recovered -from the Clergy oppesite; that petition pnrported to be a petition from the the ~selves, from wham it was not in the first instance due--or county of Kent, whereas, upon lcoking at it, it was only the from the landlords, from whom it was not due at the time petition of a single individual. When the original oblieation was incurred—or from the oecu- MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. pying tenant, from whom it was due? He (Lord Morpeth) Lord MELBOURNE, without taking the least notice of would not consent to recover it from the clerg2;mata because the observatioes of the Nettle Viscount, said—Me Lords, he thought that the Bill bore already with sufficient weight I be; leave to move that the Order of the Day be now ' time his stra ig htened circumstances, and because they could pea':. --( Cheers from' the Ministerial, an d cr i es o f " No, ms not cai: noon tidal to advance the money unless they were pre- no ! " from the Opp(:si•tion, side of the House.) . My Lords. pared to bee!: him in a crusade for the recovery of his tithes I move that th , .. Order of the Day be read, and in doing so, against" a resisting and reluctant tenantry. Neither would he I wish to state the reas o ns u p on w hi c h I s h a ll h ave it read.— consent to recover it from the tenantry, because the main ob- ( Cheers.) My Lords, the Order of the Day is, that your ject and scope of the Bill was to place an ultimate barrier, as ) Lordships should resolve Yourselves into a Committee on the far as possible, between the ccccpying tenant and the col Municipal Corporation Bill. lector of tithes.--(}leer, hear, hear.) Neither would he Lord L YND II URS c—As I understand the Order of the consent to the recovery of it f . orn the landlord, who was Day, the Noble Viscount opposite has mis-stated it.—( Cheers not preciously liable for it, because he would not depart from from the Opposition.) 1 • • 1 which landlord's consent had been given Lord M ELBOURNE—WeII, it is to consider the further the principle on the . toths Bill, and because he would not aggravate the new re- debate.—(Cheers.) Th e mot i on i s , t h at t h e O r d er o f t h e spensibility which it threw upon him , in the imposition of the Day be read, what ever it ma y b e .—( Ch eers .) W e a ll k now liability to the rent cl. ege. He at least would run no risk, that the Order of the Day is to take into consideration the by altering the stipulations of the originally proposed con- Municipal R e f orm Bill._- .. (Cries of " N o , no !") i tract, of causing the defeat of a measure which he believed n Lord LI N DM; RST—W e can only know the Order of his conscience to be essential to the subsistence of the clergy the Day by reference to al-e document. The Marquis of WESTMEATH—I thi n k th a t no P eer and the prosperity of theeeinpire. Lord STANLEY was desirous of stating. before the House ought to stand up and argue this question until the Order has came to a decision neon this subject , why , on the one kind, been read.— ( Cheers and laughter.) Lord B II OUG HA M rose to address the House, but in coll ets she motion of the Hon. Member for be could not suep Southwark nor, on the other, concur in the conclusions of sequence of the confusien that pre va il e d it was i m p oss ibl e t o his Noble Friend ( Lord Morpetli.) Strongly as he felt the hear a word the Noble Lord said. argument of the lion. Member for Sout'eneark, that the peo- When order had in some degree b een restored— ple of England ought not to be called. upon to pay a sum of Lord MELBOURNE rose and s a id—C er t a i n ly, a m id s t money which ought to be borne by other parties, yet li could the political differences and dissension s by w hi c h th e coun t r y not agree with him so far as to think, that if under this Bill had been agitated for the last fi v e yea rs , an d w hi c h h e was there was a fair and reasonable prospect of the settlement of afraid still existed—amid those political differences and dis a great and conflicting question, involving within it the peace sensions, it would give him great satisfaction, if, upon the of Ireland, that the people of England would not be willing present occasion he could anticipat e th a t thei r L o rd s hip s arrive in the measure he was about to propose, to make the sacrifice demanded of them. On the other band, would h all agree no difference of opinion would exist upon be the subject.—( Hear, hear.) Hi s o bj ec t was t o reme d y he rested his opposition to his Noble Friend, not on the and t ground of the pecuniary loss to England, which would incurred by the proposed compromise, but on the ground that evils that existed, and the only question was, i n wh a t m anner the agreement which it was sought to carry into effect gave a those evils should be remedied.—(Great cheering.) H e direct discouragement, and inflicted a penalty upon all whove r y was much encouraged in the expectations lie entertained respect to this subject, when he recoll ec t e d th a t obeyed the laws, and offered a direct encouragement and reward with to all who disobeyed them. Therefore it was that lie, feeling the this Bill had been sent up from anoth er pl ace w ith ou t a gross injustice of passing a law of encouragement to law single division upon its principl e —( H ear , an d c h eers )— and when he also recollected it had been di s ti nc tly a d m i tte d breakers, could not give his assent to a measure which seemed to him to have that tendency. He did not think there was any 'll men of eminence in the other House of Parliament— chance of this Bill being a final settlement of the question. men of great weight and authority—that the principle was His Noble Friend would tell him, probably, in reply to his ob- right, he thought that the • was come when jections, that it was found impossible to collect the tithe arrears some_ systematic Munic i pal Government . e should be adopted. in Ireland. What better chance was there that he would be In all these great remedial . measures in which we have been able to collect the tithes to the amount at which his Bill placed engaged of late years, it has been my most anxious wish to them? He was anxious to withdraw the clergymen from (AAR, open them in such a . manner as not to provoke hostility, so sion with the occupying tenant; but he thought the 600.0001. that if- I was not justified in anticipating that there would be. paid to. i the clergy of Ireland ought to be recovered upon the an agreement among your Lordships as to their adoption, I m pnnplebe had explained. He did not care about ts . going should do my utmost to promote a spirit of conciliation—to into the pockets of the people of England, but should be wil- open them in such n a way as not to tend to excite irritation— ling to see it all laid out in public works in Ireland. not to use any topics of an irritating nature, and in my consi- Mr. O'CONNELL bad no objection to the present mea- deration of the subject rather to look forward to the future, sure being regarded as a mere experiment, if gentlemen chose than backward to the past—not to view them so much with r so to consider it, for the pacification of Ireland. Viewing it in reference to their past evils, as to look at them with a view to that light, he was prepared to contend that Parliament ought their future advantages, and thus to avoid as much as possible to adopt it. The Noble Lord who had just spoken had himself introducing anything thfit might tend to inflame the prejudices a advanced 60,0001, formerly to the clergy, and done all in his sad irritate the feelings, and so to obscure the judgments of power, by horse, foot, and artillery, and turning barracks in those who heard me.—(Hear, and cheering.) I repeat, my Lords, that, on all these occasions, my wish has been ra ag ards for corn, to collect that amount. He was, however, h g ther to look forward than backward. In the great measure only able to collect 12,0001., after incurring 20,0001. costs.— to amend and improve our Parliamentary representation, it How, then, could the Noble Lord gravely urge the Govern was not my wish so much to look to the existing abuses ment to attempt the recovery of 600,0001. similarly advanced ? of the system, as to the advantages that would follow upon A change of system must be adopted towards Ireland. She must be governed with generosity. They had already strewed the change. Again, with relation to the system of our when . the amendment of the abuses of that system war upon her. Having resolved upon an experiment satisfac- her fields with the slain, and it was now proposed again to make poor-laws, was proposed, it was my study to avoid saying anything of the tory to all parties, he hoped the Government would not be conduct of those with whom many of those abuses had origi persuaded to attempt the recovery of the arrears, merely to nated, but rather to direct attention to the advantages which would arise from the adoption of a new system. That, my Lords, Jeep alive dissension. Mr. SHAW did not wish the Clergy to pay the arrears of' appears to me not only to be the most expedient, but the tithes; but he thought they might be gathered from the most just course of proceeding. To a certain extent, at landlords. least, I agree with the sentiment expressed in the protest Mr. HUME thought it would not tend to pacify Ireland, of Sir Francis Palgrave, that a great deal of evil has arisen from the neglect and inattention of Parliament in treating that those who had not paid tithes for four years, being in the these matters. My Lords, it seems to me, that in consi proportion of two-fifths to three-fifths should b e a ll owe d to daring these cases of general delinquency, there is one cir cumstance greatly encouraging in its nature, but which has satisfied in such a case. The great difficulty was, that it would generally been overlooked ; it is a circumstance applicable be holding out a premium for resisting the 70 per cent. The to crimes against society, to frauds upon individuals, as Noble Lord who introduced the Bill said that a contract had well as to abuses which often creep in upon long-existing been made. If a contract had been made, he begged to ask systems of any sort. It is this—that all these evils are much the Noble Lord with whom it had been made? Let the Noble encouraged by the general neglect and inattention of the per- Lord acquaint him with the parties, and then he should be able sons, possessors of property, who are at last obliged loudly to to judge how far the sacrifice they were then making was likely demand a remedy for them. We often hear the exclamations, to tend to the pacification of Ireland. As at present informed ,i What a dreadful case I" . " What a frightful breach of trust I upon the subject, he should certainly oppose the grant. why, the person gave up all his property to his confidant, and Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat never asked him for an account." My Lords, it is just that down, originally resisted the advance on the ground that which has occasioned the evil—it is that unjust confidence, there was no prospect of a repayment, and now he charged which I will not say palliates the misconduct of the offence, him with having set a bad example in proposing to remit the but which has undoubtedly tended to produce the offence payment, of which there was not the slightest prospect.— (hear, hear, hear.) The courts of justice, I am afraid, are (Cheers.) It was clear that the million was lost to England. not without their share of the blame in this matter; I fear lie admitted that on the subject of Irish tithes or any other that they but too often display a considerable leaning to difficult question, it would be impossible to propose a measure, wards palliating such misconduct; and sure I am, from ex - the &tails-of which would -be free from objection. With perience in the other House of Parliament, neat a similar regard to putting the defaulter and him who had obeyed the fault is committed there when a case of delinquency is brought law upon the same footing, he would willingly agree to este- before the House. In the case of the city of Coventry, for Wish that distinction, if it could be practically carried into instance, and in many other cases of a similar kind, though effect, but he should be inclined to doubt the policy of any proceedings are at first warmly taken up—the length, the attempt to recover the arrears of tithes. To snake the tedium, and the uncertainty of those proceedings, generally landlord liable would be a manifest injustice, as it would produce indifference towards the matter, and little is actually be in many cases impossible for him to recover tithes, many done to check the evil that has been brought under the notice of his tenants perhaps being dead, having quitted their pre- of the House. In pursuance, my Lords, of my intention to mises,_ or being unable to make the p a y men t. R espect i ng lay this subject before you in a calm and dispassionate manner, the advance of million from the English funds, he must I shall throw out of the question all those smaller matters as censure any distinction between the burdens which fell on to abuses originated and kept up for the purposes ofpolitical in different parties. When he was in office, he intended to pro fluence and interest. I shall not allude to cases like those pose a remission of church cess in England, th e amount to mentioned by a Noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) the other be paid out of the public revenues. Ile intended to propose day, where such influence was avowedly kept up, for the pur an advance to Scotland, and, to make the advantages some- pose of securing the return of a Member of Parliament—cases what proportional, he intended to propose that Ireland should • where Hon. Gentlemen and Noble Lords become, for such a be released from any obligation to repay this million. If, purpose, members of country Corporations. I shall make no however, the objection, that one country must not be burdened observations, my Lords, upon such cases, beyond saying sunt to give a slight benefit to another, had been put forward, he vitia temporis, vitia honrinem. lam also about, my Lords, must admit that the arrangement could not have met the ob- to make a much larger deduction from the topics of this de jection, nor indeed would any arrangement of the kind be bite—a deduction, however, of circumstances, which, though even free from it ; but then it was to be considered whether I shall leave out of the statement of the matter, I shall hope a small pecuniary grievance was not counterbalanced by the to take credit with you for not having negligently overlooked ; removal of a great practical es il. With regard to the propo_ for though I shall not state these circumstances, I trust that sition of the Hon. Gentleman, he could net agree to it, as its you will take them into your account in considering what effect would be to render the Clergyman liable to the demand, ought to be the objects provided for by a Bill of the sort and that on all hands was admitted to be unjust. He should, which lam now about to submit to your consideration. My therefore, vote with the Government. If, on the other hand, Lords, I shall leave out all those cases of gross delinquency Government should be enabled to propose an easy and unex- which have often been charged to exist in particular boroughs. pensive machinery to draw a distinction between the defaulter I shall not advert to Ipswich, Norwich, and other such bo and him who had complied with the law, he should cheerfully roughs. These I shall, in my present statement, entirely give it his support. leave out of consideration. Not, my Lords, as abandoning The Committee then divided, them, but from considering that the case which I have to For the clause Against it Majority On our return to the Gallery we found that several clauses valent to a discussion on the second reading, that I should had been agreed to without any discussion. 'rely. Whatever may have been the origin of these Corpo- The remaining clauses, as amended, were then agreed to. rations, it is not my intention to enter upon any antiquarian The House baring resumed, the Chairman reported pro- or historical consideration of them. I believe it is the best grass, opinion that they were in their origin i n f avour o f lib erty , The Report was ordered to be received to-morrow (this ' and advantageous to commerce. But into that argument I day). shall not go. But what I say now is, that these institutions On the motion of Sir J. CAMPBELL the Sheriffs Regulation are too narrow for the times and circumstances in which we Bill was read a third time and passed. are placed, end that they are too narrow and confined for the The Limitation of Polls at Elections Bill was read a third community over which they preside; that they are unfitted time and passed. to discharge satisfactorily the duties they have to perform ; Lord J. RUSSELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to that they are not only unfitted to discharge those c'uties sa provide for 'the further reduction of the militia staffs in Great tisfactorily, but conduce to many other evils, many other Britain and Irel an d. I t was proposed that the militia staffs dangers, and stand in the way of many other benefits ; and should in s ome inst ances b e re d uce d by one-third, by an order that, iii any opinion, instead of forming the bulwarks of inter of Majesty in Council. It was proposed to reduce the whole nal security, they form a source of peril, of hazard, and of staff by one half. The inspeetors of the staff said that the danger.--( Cheers.) I will take by way of illustrating this reduction was necessary. He hoped that next year he would opieion, the cases of three corporations only, against one of be able to bring the whole subject before the House at an which a great deal has been alleged, and, it must be con earlier period of the session, in order to render the militia staff rested not altogether unreasonably, that corporation having of the country more effective. certainly laid itself open to suspicion—very likely beyond what Colonel WOOD considered the question a very important is strictly just—by refusing to give any account of its affairs. one, and he hoped the Noble Lord would give them some idea These corporations arc in the capitals of three neighbouring, as to the time when the matter would be fully discussed. and, indeed, contiguous counties. They are all flourishing Lord HO WICK agreed with the Hon. and Gallant Officer towns, and ail of them towns of manufacturing and commer that the subject was one of great importance. Such a Bill cial importance. The mode of selecting the members of the ought not to be read a second time without discussion, but corporations is preny nearly the same in all three ; and with perhaps that dis cuss i on wou ld come on under more favourable respect to the coincidence in the working of these corpora circumstances if it were deferred until the Bill was printed. tions, I, from my knowledge of that part of the country, Colonel SIBTHORPE objected to the introduction of the Bill was struck with the fact long before this commission or at that late period of the session, when so many Hon. Me m b ers this inquiry was thought of. These towns are Notting had left town. It was a most un j ust, iniquitous, and partial ham, Leicester, and Derby ;—their circumstances coinciding measure, and if the Noble Lord peasisted in introducing it h e in many respects, but in many respects placed in very dii would move that the House do now adjourn. .. • ferent .situations. Over. one of these towns the influence o f a . After a few words from Lords J. Russez.r. and Moarirrn leave very powerful family in this country has prevailed to a great was granted, and the Dill was subsequently brought in, and read extent, and where political feelings of what are called the fora first time. Lord J. RUSSELL postponed his motion relative to the case of liberal side ( I use that expression not in an offensive sense, as General Darling un til to - morrow; after which the House ad- implying that those opposed to them are illiberal) have also journed, at Half-past O ne .p r evailed. Th e corpora ti on o f Nottingham has always been a Whig and Dissenting Corporation. The Corporation of Leicester, on the contrary, has always been, to use the lan guage of the day, of Tory and Conservative principles. With respect to Nottingham (says the Report), the elec tors are pretty nearly self-elected :—The political character of the select body, the exclusion of so many persons of re spectability and intelligence, the abuse of the corporate fran chise in the creation of freemen, the lavish and unprofitable expenditure of the corporate revenues, the secrecy of tile financial proceedings, the heavy weight of the local taxation, and the withdrawal of the corporate funds from contributing towards it, are so many causes of well-founded complaint, which have alienated from municipal government, the con fidence and esteem of the inhabitants." I apprehend the filets in that statement are such as cannot well be controverted. Now, let us look at the Corporation of Leicester. The Re port describes the governing body of that Corporation " to be a self-elected, close, and irresponsible body. The results of this system have been highly unsatisfactory, and altogether incompatible with tire legitimate objects of muncipal govern ment. In no Corporation has a more complete system of po litical exclusiveness existed than has prevailed in this. From the Mayor, to the humblest servant of the Corporation, every office has been filled by persons of the Corporation, or, sO called, Tory party, to the total exclusion of all who enter tained different opinions, however wealthy, however intelligent, however respectable. Yet the persons, entertaining different political opinions from the Corporation, constitute, to say the very least, an equal proportion of the ppelence and intelligence of the town, and unquestionably form a nwppriCal Majgrity of the population." Now as to the corporation of DeitY. 1143.2 again, is a town where cliffs:rent politics prevail from those pre vailing in Leicester; the House must allow, therefore, that HOUSE OF LORDS, Acct.-sr 3. The VICE-CHAsert.Loit took his scat on the Woolsack at five o'clock. Petitions against the Corporation Reform Bill were presented by the Earl of Wicklow, from Nfaldon ; the Duke of Wel lington, from York and Henley-on-Thames ; the Duke of Newcastle, from Newark and Barnstaple ; the Marquis of Hastiogß, from Huntingdon ; Lord Wharncliffe, from Liver pool ; Lord Skelsmerdale, from Newport ; the Marquis of Salisbury, praying to be heard by counsel at the bar ; Lord Lyndhurst, from Devizes, Chard, the Magistrates of Cam bridge, and Bridgewater. The Marquis of TA VISTOCK presented a petition from Cambridge, favour of the Bill. Earl SPENCER presented a petition from Northampton in favour of the Bill. Petitions in favour of the Bill were presented by the Earl of Radnor from Tewkesbury; by Lord Duncannon from Lyme Regis; and Lord Melbourne from Boston, King's Lynn, Pres ton, Faversham, and Northampton. Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented a petition from Tewkesbury against the Bill, and from Gloucester, praying that some provision might be made in the Bill to preserve leases granted as they were in Gloucester. Viscount MELBOURNE was aware that there were many persons opposed to the clause alluded to, and he would have no difficulty in agreeing to its being amended, so as to protect all existing leases. The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from Dart mouth, praying that ncne but Churchmen in the Town Coun_ cij might be put upon the Committee for distributing the 'the selectieu of these three CorporatiotWo of them beiig Whig Corporations, and one a Tory Cerporatien—bas die'rn made with strict impartiality. The Report, speaking of DerVi: says r—" The Corporation of Derby has been almost ori fermly composed of persons Laving oae opinion upon political subjects, and the anxiety of the Corporation to maintain the ascendancy of their own optironsbas!ed them to create numerous freemen for political purposes. In the year 1806, 124 honorary freemen were made and sworn. In the year 1819, 132 were admitted and sworn. It was stated that the Corporation, whenever they thought the number of the freemen in their interest getting low,' the mayor, or some other influential member of the Corporation, applied to the• agent of the Ca vendish fantilv, and reque.teel a Est of the names of the per sons to be admitted as honorary freemen. The creation of namerous honorary frermen by the Corporation had the effect which was anticipated, for by this unfair and unjust proceed ing, a body of voters, subservient to the views of the Cor poration, held in check that portion of the inhabitants op posed to• the politics of the Corporation, and thus, for thirty years before the passing of the Reform Bill, there was no contest for the representation of the borough of Derby in Parliament." It is unnecessary for me to read any more of these Reports, because it is perfectly well known that the re sult is as I have stated. Now, my Lords, let me ask your Lordships, what do you think of the working of such a system ? —(Loud cheers)—a system which, in three great towns, ?laced in such different situations, and under such different circumstances, has so entirely produced the same extensive evils, the same bad consequences—that of the exclusion of one-half of the inhabitants of these towns from all partici pation of authority—from all power or control over the funds and local interests of these boroughs.—(Cheers.) I am not very well acquainted with the interior statistics of these towns, but I apprehend that the parties who arc thus excluded from all participation in the local government of them, are not in property, respectability, talents, or means, less qualified to exercise the powers of government than those who exclusively possess those powers. Now this, in my mind, has always struck me as being one of the most conclusive proofs of the necessity of making a consider able change and alteration in the system itself. The manner in which that system works in these three important towns, producing the same results, unmitigated and unchanged, by any variation of circumstances, has always appeared to me a subject that showed there was in the constitution of these Corporations an inherent evil-L-a defect—a curse. which could only be cured by resorting to principles of an opposite charac ter, and extending at least the source from which these Cor porations were to flow and have their rise. I will now, my Lords, go to another town, of which we heard a great deal at the bar of the House the other night—l allude to the city of Coventry. In that city another state of circumstances exist. It is, however, a remarkable fact, that the select body in Coventry is composed of Whigs and Tories, pretty nearly in equal numbers. The system, therefore does not work pre cisely in the same manner there as in other places, but then the consequences and results are not in the least de ;gree of a better description. Everybody knows what Co ventry is, notwithstanding all we heard at the bar the other evening; and notwithstanding the possibility that the Com missioners may be wrong as to the mismanagement of the school. That single fact was alone adduced by the Coun sel at the bar by way of impeaching the accuracy of the Commissioners' Report, although there are in that Report many other abuses pointed out, of a far more serious and grievous nature. But although the Corporation is impartially formed—though it is politically impartial—yet in that city there are perpetual contests between the Corporation and the rest of the inhabitants. There is no city in England that, in fact, has been more disgraced by a system of electing members of Parliament by fraud, corruption, and violence, than the city of Coventry. There is no city which violence and corruption have been carried to a greater extent, or in which greater enormities have been committed. The Commissioner who drew up the Report with reference to Coventry has, it is true, stated that all these matters have been considerably amended of-late years, and that the proceedings at electi o n s there are now much better conducted. But, my Lords, I own that though these matters, to which I have directed your Lord ship's attenti o n, h ave ha d great effect upon my mind, they have not had so great an effect as what I was myself witness to, when I held the seals of the Home Department, with re spect to Bristol. " The feeling that prevails in Bristol (says the Report) with respect to the Corporation, appeared to be of the most violent and exasperating nature." I entirely agree with that statement. The Commissioners also state, " that among all the quarrels and disturbances to which Bristol un unhappily has been exposed, among all the changes of parties, the Corporation has always been the object of attack and animosity;" and they add, "We are of opinion that this feeling cannot permanently endure in any society unless there is something essentially bad in the first prin ciples of its constitution." It is then said, " that mea sures of the most liberal character would not be popular, if they were to originate with the Corporation." Mr. Hogg in his protest, which has been furnished after some difficulty, says, " No good man, no real well-wisher of the par ties themselves, can approve of the extreme hostility which some of the inhabitants of Bristol, it is hoped but few of them, seem to entertain for the Corporation of their ancient and famous City, and for which the printed Report, although not penned in a spirit of kindness, has displayed no adequate cause. It was necessary to hear the evidence given on the trial at bar of the information filed by your Majesty's Attorney-General against Charles Raney._ Eso.,,sometime Mayor of the City of Bristol, and to @nerve the temper with which it was &tvch, its order to estimate correctly the insane malignity by which mis guided persons may sometimes be animated. To understand how it may happen that the inhabitant should be willing his house and goods should be consumed—that the tradesman should be content to see his shop in flames—and that the ci tizen should rejoice to have his whole City wasted, so that the Mayor and Justices might incur blame." This is very strong language—more strong than I should use; but, my Lords, I think it is true. I think there was that feeling in Bristol, though I would not venture to state it. I think there was a feeling of detestation entertained against the Corporation ; that they were unwilling to repress violence—at least, before hand; and I think the language of Mr. Hogg is not stronger than is warranted by the facts. Why, then, my Lords, it is be cause the Corporation has no community of feeling with the public—it is because of its secret character and moue of pro ceeding ; and, above all, because of its exclusive nature and oli garchical character, that these evils are produced which threaten the peace and security of the country.—(Cheers.) Why, good God 1 my Lords, we have passed through troublesome times, have seen a great deal of public excitement and public tumult, but I can only say that I have felt much less fear from Birmingham or 'Manchester, than I have from any town where there was a Corporation, and for that very reason. Great excitement has prevailed in Birmingham and in Man chester; but there was no local odium, no local hatred, no local irritation, which are all far more violent than the hatred and irritation arising from public and political ceases. In places having Corporations, we have not only irritations arising from the agitation of Parliamentary Reform, or the amendment of the Poor-laws to guard against, but we have the Corporations themselves to contend with. There we have a peculiar clement of evil, an additional source of danger—a system of things which, in fact, alienates the great majority of the inhabitants from the King's Govern ment, and mskes them disposed, if not to disturb, at least to wink and connive at the disturbance of the public peace. It is for these reasons that I move your Lordships to go into a Committee upon this Bill. Ido not know how it may appear to your Lordships, but it appears to myself, my Lords, that I have made cut a strong case upon g eneral prin ciples in favour of this Bill.—( Ch eers .) B u t I have left the strongest case belind—and that is, the administration of jus tice. Justice is the air which we breathe, it is the health of our lives ; if that be unjustly administered, or if it be irreme dially suspected, then for that community there is no satisfac tion, there is no peace, there is no happiness whatsoever. The Noble. Lord proceeded to express his belief that justice was not so corrupted even in the Corporation of cities as it was in the small boroughs, which were convulsed with conflicting political feelings. Their Lordships were aware of the strength of those convulsions, and of the violence, hatred, and animo sities which accompanied them. They overturned the under standing, corrupted the feelings, and made men forget every thing that was just and right. Even their Lordships were sometimes carried away by feelings of that nature ; but lie was aristocratic enough, and knew enough of human nature, to know that those feelings were ten thousand times more in tense in the lower classes of society. So strongly did they operate that it was impossible to obtain justice from magistrates its those towns at election times. The only inquiry made was —on what - side was the party accused and accusing ? This decided the matter, and not the prin c ipl e o f j ust i ce . B ut h e would not dwell further upon this. But this, in his opinion, formed one strong ground on which to rest his case, and upon which he called on the House to go into Committee on the Bell. He knew that the Bill was demanded by the inhabitants of all these towns ; lie believed it was asked for by a great ma jority of the people. At least their Lordships should attend to that demand so far as to give it their mature, cool, and at tentive consideration. It was also asked for by the boroughs who had petitioned against it; by the mouth of the Learned Counse` who were heard at the bar, for both those Counsel ended their speeches by stating that they were perfectly sensible that there ought to be a reformation in these boroughs. Of course they were instructed to speak in that manner by their clients. They said that the Corporations ought to be put upon more popular grounds ; that there ought to be an infusion of fresh persons ; that they were perfectly sensible of the evils of the existing system, and that it was desirable to produce a better understanding between the constituents and those who repre sented them. The second Counsel who spoke said his clients desired reform above all things, but they did not wish to take it from his Majesty's Ministers (Hear, hear)— but they wished to receive it from those who had not sworn the de struction of all corporations.—( Hear, hear.) This, he must admit, was zn avowal of political sentiments free enough at all events. But lie trusted their Lordships would not be ac tuated by those feelings, but would look at the measure it self, without considering the persons by whom it was intro duced, but considering only the grounds and reasons upon which it was founded—( Cheers)—and whether it was fit ting it should pass, in consequence of those reasons and grounds. Great eulogiums had been passed upon the protest of Sir Francis Palgrave ; but after all, the gentlemen at the bar did not make any great use of that protest.—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear.") He did not deny the ability of Sir F. Palgrave ; he thought that Learned Gentleman had treated the subject with gre - at talent, but to him (Lord Melbourne) it i.ppeared that the opinions of Sir F. Palgrave were in per fect accordance with the principle of the Bill. :le did not, therefore, care whether the Commissioners' Report, or the protest of Sir F. Palgrave were taken, for they were identi cally the same. Sir F. Palgrave noticed every one of the evils noted by the Commissioners—though he stated them per- Papis in a somewhat more modified and limited manner— licar; froai Apppiition)—and he points precisely at the same remedies. Some obieivatiow had begil 4dp ppnfi that perFa the iii-eainqe of the Bill which stated that there were_ elk:litres in the charters by which the bodies corporate had been constituted e and it was said that if there were any .:lerects in the charters, the Crown could remedy them by granting new charters ; but the Crown could not remedy many of the defects in thtecharte. - s. He would read one line from Sir F. Palgrave.le protest, to show that those who had advanced that argument had not read it—" The Crown can grant the conservancy of the peace spa corporation, but it can not grant the compendious powers of levying rates nod penal ties, and effecting the arrangements by which a town police can alone be maintained and regulated." There were wilily ether acts, which the Crown by its own powers could not de, and which necessarily called for the intervention on this subject of an Act of Parliament. Tile provisions of the Bill had beetle stated by Sir Charles Wetherell with considerable clearness and accuracy; he ( Lord Melbourne) should, therefore, do no more than state the general provisions, and make a few obser vations upon them. Objections had been made by the Coun sel ; but be thought the principal provisions of the Bill met those objections. The Noble Lord then recapitulated the leading provisions of the Bill. With regard to the 'Cons.i tution and powers of the Town Council, the Noble Lord ex pressed his belief that it. was an arrangement which would be found by their Lordships to be the best, the wisest, and most prudent that could be devised. The Counsel at the Bar had objected that there was no qualification ; he (Lord Melbourne) would simply observe, that the idea of a qualification was perfectly new in Corporate bodies. There existed no such thing at present. It was then said that the Corpo rations were to be founded on annual electiohs.—( Hear.) The answer was, all elections in Corporate bodies had always been annual. It might be a wrong, or it might be a wise system, but it was no novelty. It was then said by the Learned Counsel that we were going to esta blish a system of Republics throughout the country. But we found these Republics already established. If a town hav ing a right to settle its own municipal Government, to manage its own local affairs, and regulate its own police, were, indeed, a Republic, then this system of Republics had been already established by the ancient constitution of this country. The only alteration this Bill proposed to make was, that these Re publics should be popular instead of being oligarchical. They were at present nothing but oligarchies, and accompanied by all the evils and miseries that had in all places, and at all times, flowed from that system of Government ; a system which never promoted the welfare of those committed to its charge, but which was always the object of hatred, odium, and 'detestation—a system which generally terminated in tu mult, turmoil, rebellion, and blood. This was the alterati on we proposed to mak e . We were about to give the whole body of the people some interest in the government of their towns,and by that means to give them an interest in the preservation of pub lic peace, and the protection and good management of public property. He should not discuss the clauses of the Bill— though there was one respecting the granting of ale-house licences—a subject which he knew their Lordships very much delighted in —( Laughter)—but he would pass from that to the clause (76) which gave the Town Council powers with respect to the police. This he conceived to be one of the most -important clauses of the Bill. Nobody could look— without feeling considerable apprehension—at the deficient and defective state of the police in the . various great towns of the kingdom. They all knew, from the experience of the late few years, the benefit that had arisen from the in stitution of a well-settled police. Since the period of the establishment of the London police, though they had passed through times likely to produce disturbance of the public peace, yet they had not been obliged to call out a single soldier in quelling riot. This was a great recommendation, especially when their Lordships recollected the period when, on occasion of riots perfectly insignificant in their character, those who opposed them threw the towns into great alarm, and the destruction of property was hazarded by regiments of cavalry being stationed on the inhabitants for several days. All attempts to extend the system into the country had failed; but when the town should have a Representative body which would have the resolution to carry into effect measures neces sary for an effective police, it would remove that inefficiency which had hitherto resulted from a general assembly of the rate-payers, who never could be induced to tax themselves. The Noble Lord denied that the creation of the Magistrates on the nomination of the Town-Council, would be a limita tion of the prerogative of the Crown. This, however, had been stated, as if the Crown had now the power to appoint the Magistrates in the boroughs. The Crown had no such power ; nor had it the slightest power to remove them for misconduct. But this Bill would give the Crown that power which it did not possess before ; it would confer a most useful and advantageous prerogative, which might, and no doubt would, be exercised in a most beneficial manner. He thought this would be one of the most useful reformations that the Bill would introduce. The Noble Lord then briefly adverted to the appointment of Recorders and stipendiary Magistrates, and thought 'their Lordships would rejoice a any measure that gave facility to those objects. Upon a re view of these various provisions, lie conceived the adminis tration of justice in these Corporations to be efficiently se cured. He had thus stated the general grounds on which he thought this Bill was necessary. He had chosen to confine himself to these main features of the Bill. He trusted their Lordships would give the House the opportunity of consider ing in Committee that Bill, whose general principles and pro visions he had stated, and he now confidently moved, that their Lordships do go into Committee on the Bill.—(Cheers.) The Earl of CAR NAR VON said it was because he was anxious that the House should give this ]3ill a fair, cool, and attentive consideration, and that the country might be im pressed with the sense of the justice of their Lordships, that lie rose to move an a men d men t. Th e N o bl e Vi scount had re ferred to the case of Bristol as an argument for having more confidence in towns where there were no Corporations, than in these who possessed them; but the Noble Viscount ought to remember the period when those tumults happened. It was during the period of passing the Reform Bill—(Opposi tion cheers)—when most exciting speeches were made, if not by Ministers themselves, at least by those who supported them. The people were then told they had rights which the people were bound to insist upon, and that rights were enjoyed by their superiors which ought to be resisted. It must be re membered that at that period the people concerned in those tumults, foolishly imagined that they were following a course which was not altogether displeasing to the Government of the day. He did not for a moment mean to say that his Majesty's Ministers were in any way connected with those parties ; but still, that was the impression upon the general mind. He was anxious that no misconstruction should take place with respect to his vote. He was not opposed to a measure of cor porate refurm.—( Opposition cheers.) He was persuaded that great abuses existed, and that they must be remedied ; and that whatever Government might be called upwi to administer the affairs of the country, some measure of corporate reform must be introduced.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) In moving this amendment he was not in the slightest degree desirous to interpose between this Bill and the country ; al though he thought it was not right at this period of the session to proceed with a measure of such magnitude, involving so many complicated rights and requiring such dispassionate con sideration. There ought to be on such a measure a full at tendance of Peers ; but he put it to the House whether in the month it was practicable to obtain that attendance. Private business obliged Noble Lords to be absent. But after con ceding the principle of the Bill, and after counsel had been heard on that principle so very recently, it appeared to him not compatible with any notions of justice or consistency t o say that they wo u ld not hear evidence upon the Bill.—( Opposi tion cheers.) They were bound in justice to all those affected by this Bill to disprove many many of the allegations made against them. The Bill deals with their political rights, and rights of property- which in many instances were as dear to them as their titles and estates were to their Lordships. It was upon these grounds, and from a conviction that if they acted otherwise they would forget their high character for jus tice, and not for the purpose of creating the least delay, he now moved, as an amendment :—" That evidence be taken at the Bar of this House in support of the allegations of the several petitions, praying to be heard ag a i nst t h e Bill , before the House b e p u t i n t o a - Committee of the whole House on the said Bill." Lord WINCHILSEA and Lord BROUGHAM rose to gether. The call for Lord Winchilsea was very loud; but neither of the Noble Lords appeared inclined to give way. The Marquis of WESTMEATH rose, amidst much con fusion, to a point of order. He appealed to their Lordships in favour of the Noble Earl ( Winchilsea). The minutes on their Lordships' table contained a notice given by that Noble . Earl.—(Cries of " No, no," " Hear, hear.") He would move that the clerk read the minutes.—( Gi-eat confusion.) Lord BROUGHAM—You cannot interpose a motion, that is quite clear. Marcpds of WESIMEATH-1 have not done with iny observations— Lord BROUGHAM—It is quite immaterial whether the Noble Lord has done or not. A person more ignorant of order than the Noble Lord I never' heard. It is because I am speaking to order that it does not signify One farthing whether the Noble Lord has or has not done speaking. The Noble and Learned Lord then said, it was the farthest thing in the world from his mind to stand in the way of Lord Wiuchilsca, provided he rose in pursuance of a motion, but it was the first time he had ever heard of one motion inter vening while another motion was before the House. The Earl of WINCHIL SEA said, he was not going to make his motion; but to speak to the question before the House. Lord BROUGHAM then would assure the Noble Lord that no man would more cheerfully give way to him than he ; but he had been taken in by the Noble Marquis—( Laughter), who said it was the Noble Earl's intention to bring in a dis tinct motion. .After an ineffectual effort on the part of the Marquis of \VESTA" E ATH again to address the House, The Earl of WINCHIL SE A thanked the Noble and Learned Lord for his courtesy, and then said that he should not repeat the nuticc he had given, nor divide the House upon it; but would leave it to the Noble Viscount himself to take what course he thought proper. In the few observations which he wished to make on that occasion, he begged to assure their Lordships he should approach the question uninfluenced by any interest of his own ; because there was not in the Bill one sine - ,le clause that could by any p oss ibili ty a ff ect any property of 'his. He could also fairly and honestly state that he ap proached the question uninfluenced by any party feeling ; be oause it so happened that he differed as much with respect to it from many of his Noble Friends who sat on that side of th 4 House as he did from any of the Noble Lords who sat opposite. He was not unfriendly to municipal reform. He did not deny that the altered circumstances of the country might demand very considerable changes in existing institu tions. He did not deny the propriety of instituting an in quiry as to the expediency of extending those rights and pH vileges at present confined to a comparative few in all corpo rate towns. He did not mean to deny that very considerable abuses might in the course of time have crept into the admi• nistration of corporate property. Put there ho took 1)5 stud, --( Hear, bear.) II maintained that the Bill had come up to them upon grounds S 3 unconstitutional as to render it im possible for their Lordships to entertnin it. He maintained that the Commission upon whose Report the Bill was founded was not legal, was not constitutional.—(Crios o; " Hear, hear.") There he took his stand. And he would fa;:dy and honestly ,say, that if every particle of the Re p-en met his full approbation, he would not proceed to correct the abuses which it pointed out, feeling as he did, that the Commission by whom it was made was not leneily or consti tutionally appointed.—( Hear, hear.) It shorn never be for gotten that they were legislating not for th emse l ves, not for their own times alone, but for posterity; He denied the power of the Crown to issue Commissions to conduct in quiries noon questions affecting the rights ad privileges of the steiject. Such Commission, if issued at all, could only be is sued by and with the consent of Parliament. He repeated, then, that the Bill came before them grounded upon the Re fort of the Commissioners who had been unconititutionally appointed. The Noble Viscount ( Melbourne) had called upon their Lordi hips to look upon it as a general measure. But a general measure it was not ;it was a partial measure—a Bill ef pales and penalties, affecting all the boroughs mentioned in the Report of the Commissioners, who were to be visited with confiscation—for what ?—for late abuses. Abuses alleged by whom ? By an authority unknown to the law and the con stitution. The preamble of the Bill ..alleged neglect and abuse of the privileges conferred by charter to the corporate towns of the kingdom. He did not mean to say that an abuse, either of property or of privilege, might not al ways be a ground on which to institute inquiry ; but he never would give his voice in that House in favour of a judicial measure inflicting pains and penalties on his fellow-country men , when he had not had bef o re him a tittl e of evidence on i& such a measure could be justified.— (Hear.) He implored their Lordships to consider for one moment the situation in which the freemen of the country would be placed in case the Bill then before them were to be passed into a law; that point had been most powerfully put by the Noble Earl who had preceded him, and it would, there fore, be superfluous and idle for him, with his humble talent, to dwell for a single moment upon it. This much, how ever, he must say, that the property enjoyed by that class of' individuals must be regarded as private property. The pro perty which they possessed was not the property of the coun try. It was a property originally granted to individuals for services rendered in times of difficulty and danger.—( Hear,. hear.) He was unwilling to trespass upon their Lordslt,, time at greater length. H e mus t, however, obser':e t h at he was surprised to hear so little argument intlv!. speech of the Noble Viscount (Melbourne). The Noble Viscount said that in most of the municipal towns a certain political party pre vailed, in some Whig, in others Tory. Did the Noble Viscount suppose that after that Bill passed all party spirit in those towns would be abolished? The Noble Earl continued to make some further observations, but in a tone of voice that could not be heard. He concluded by stating that when the proper opportunity arrived he should move, as an amendment, that the Bill be negatived; though he should take care so to trame his motion as not to pledge the House not to entertain any measure founded upon constitutional grounds. The reso lution he should move was in these terms.--( Cries of " Not now.") He believed he might read it then, although he was aware he could not move it.—(" No, no," and " Read, read.") After some delay the Noble Lord proceeded to read his Reso lution, which, as well as we could collect it, was in substance as follows :—" That though the House was at all times pre pared to take into its consideration, and to give every support to which it was entitled to any measure founded on constitu tional principles, having for its object the extension of political rights and privileges, &c., yet it felt it its boumden duty to withhold its consent to this measure on account of the uncon stitutional principles on which it was founded, and in the absence of any evidence on which the destruction of the charities of 185 corporate towns could be justified." If he were correct in the opinion he had formed, that this was a Bill of pains and penal ties, affecting the rights, privileges, an d p roperty of his fellow countrymen,-he put it to their Lordships whether they could refuse their assent to his amendment.--( Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM had wished exceedingly to address their Lordships immediately after the Noble Earl on the bench opposite, not merely on account of the great importance of the proposition then before them, and to which he regarded the amendment of the Noble Earl as absolutely fatal, as neither more nor less than positively destructive ; but he was also, he confessed, for an infinitely less important reason, as regarded all mankind, except himself, desirous this evening to present himself to their Lordships. It was no light thing to be charged with having been a party—and from the accidental circumstance of his then situation the principal party to issuing an unconsti tutional commission—it was no light thing to be charged with having fixed the Great Seal of this country to an illegal commission ; for illegal and unconstitutional the commission of' Municipal Inquiry had been denounced to be, bothby the Learned Counsel who had been heard at their Lordships' bar, and by the Noble Earl who had last spoken. He was therefore anxious, in redemption of the pledge he had given to a Noble Duke (whom he no longer saw in his place) on a former occasion, that he would take the earliest oppartunity that he, the Noble Duke, or any other man would afford him in that House, to demonstratt the utter groundlessness of the charge. That was one Yeason that he had for desiring to address their Lordships 'oefore the debate proceeded further, and the desire that hb had previously felt had not been lessened, but strengthened, in its force by what had fallen from the Noble Earl, who grounded his main objection to the Bill on the unconstitutional, and, as he thought, illegal origin of the Commission on whose Report it was grounded. But before he proceeded to that, he must first of all address himself to the amendment which had been made by the Noble Earl (Carnarvon) who spoke first ; for he was infinitely more anxious for the success of the measure to which the Noble Earl's amendment, if successful, would prove ut terly destructive—he was infinitely more anxious for that than he was for the defence of the Commission; the latter, in deed, he looked upon as so clear, that he rather doubted whe ther he should be entering upon a superfluous errand, when he undertook to prove its legality, as well as its consistency with the sipirit and usage of the Constitution. He confessed he had seldom been more astonished than at the proposition of the Noble Earl. Astonished in the first place, because after what passed on the first night, when counsel were proposed to be heard—when it was distinctly stated on that (the Minis terial) side of the House by all who agreed to the pro position, that it was adopted on the footing of its tak ing two, or at most three days, to discuss the matter— when it was known that had they been of opinion that it would take more than such a period, there was no extremity of de bate or discussion in that House which they would not wil lingly have preferred to hearing one single counsel make one single statement at the bar ; and when now having heard counsel at no little length, for three long days ; after hearing all that two of the most eminent and the most learned of them could urge ; when, after all that, it was threatened to tender, by way of evidence, that which he would presently show to their Lordships amounted to absolutely nothing ; when, in. stead of proceeding to discuss the principle of the Bill, as had beer, agreed by compact, by compromise—( " No, no," and cheers)—when, instead of taking that course which he main tained had Leen determined upon by special agreement, at the time that the discussion of the principle was deferred upon the second reading ; when, instead of taking that course, it was proposed to hear more Counsel, and to call in witnesses, that proposition coming, to make the thing more wonderful still, from a Noble Earl, who prefaced his statement with an ad mission which; to use a legal phrase—and a legal phrase on an occasion when the legality of a proceeding was questioned, might not be deemed out of place--when the Noble Earl then in legal phrase prefaced his speech with one admis sion which " showed him out of court," and again con cluded his speech by declaring that he desired not to in terpose one hour's delay between the House and the passing of the Bill ; when he found a proposition for the future hearing of counsel and the examination of witnesses come from a Noble Lord who so expressed himself; and when he' remembered the special agreement and compact into which the House had entered when it was just determined that Counsel should be called in, he confessed he could not adequately ex press the astonishment he felt at the course it was now pro posed to pursue. But the Noble Earl's admission at the out set of his speech was in fact utterly destructive of the propo sition •with which he concluded. The Noble Earl began by stating that he candidly and, fairly admitted in the fullest ex tent the absolute necessity of Corporation Reform. All that lie allowed—all that lie stated as a matter which no man could doubt—and the greater part of all that was admitted by the Noble Earl who moved the amendment was admitted also by the Noble Earl ( Winchilsca) who spoke after him, but he Wanted to have evidence to show that abuses existed— that the constitution of the corporate bodies was bad—that the evils which existed in the system were such as to produce evils in practice—in short, admitting the existence of evils and abuses, the Noble Earl, with admirable consistency, re quired that they should be proved. The Noble Earl ad mitted that the evil existed, and that a remedy was wanted; yet, admitting these two facts, he required that proof should be called to their Lordships' bar, and your Lordships' time spent, or mis-spent rather, in hearing evidence upon points upon which no one pretended to entertain a doubt. The Noble Earl commenced by admitting that to hear evidence was utterly useless and unnecessary—(No, no)—because he admitted the very things to prove which evidence alone was required.—( Oh, oh.) But he (Lord Brougham) found that same of their Lordships were already assuming a judicial character, and were even pronouncing a judicial decree against him as he passed along. He heard some Noble Lords pronouncing with authoritative mien and voice " No, no, no !" therefore he must be pardoned if he presumed to show, show, show--( Laughter and cheers)—that the evidence which was about to be called to their Lordships' bar did not in reality lead to the possibility of any one result, except the spending of the valuable time of that House, and the frustra ting the just hopes and expectations of the country---( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl's motion was, that counsel should .be called in for the purpose of examining evidence to prove the statements which they (the counsel) made last week. What were those statements ? He called upon any one who had heard them to show him wherein those statements in the slightest degree affected the principle of the Bill, namely ) that abuses existed—that those abuses required a remedy— and that this Bill was the only species of remedy that could appropriately be applied. The Noble Earl contended, that if it were determined to hear counsel, it followed, as a matter of course, that witnesses must be heard to support their state ments. It had been maintained that the course now proposed to be pursued was utterly at variance with all precedent ; that in every case where counsel were heard, witnesses were also heard. In reply to that argument, ha would only entreat their Lordships' attention to two cases —the measure for the aboli tion of hereditable jurisdictions in 1747, and the proposed mea sure for the abolition of negro slavery in 1807. In each of those cases interests far more important were as deeply, and even more deeply involved, than in the present instance • yet in each of these cases what was th e course pursoecl &tinsel were called in and heard ism the principle ; but when they proposed to support those statements by evidence, they were rnmediately ordered .to withdraw, and in neither case was ft i. gle witness heard. (Th e N o '-,l e an d L ea i ne d L or d clued lion this point at very considerable length, and in a mario-r which elicited the constant &leers of the House, but the pr" sure of the debato com p e l s us to curta il hi s observations-) "! he Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to defend_ tho I gality of the Commission. His Learned Friends (Sir C; Wetherell and Mr. Knight) had referred to the words of:Lord Coke, who said that " no Commission of novel inquiry Was prohibited by statute." But any one who read that passage .0 Lord Coke, would seo at once that that learned and eminent lawyer was speaking of a very different kind of Commission, and of a very different kind of inquiry to any that had take' place in this instance. Lord Coke meant not an inquiry in stituted for the mere purpose of information or curio:sal', but an inquiry in the 'nature of an inqiiisition, i n w hi c h the ..(join rnissioners were to inquire into and to determine something judicially. As soon as the Commission of inquiry p roce eded . to confiscation o r ou tl awry , t h en h e would say that it assumed,. an authority w hi c h did not b e l ong to it. Another instance ot. a Commissio n o f pure i nqu i ry was one instituted in the reign 01 Henry VII., to ascertain whether a son of the widow of Henry V. was d escen d e d f rom Cadwallader, Prince of Wales. The Learned Coun se l w h o h a d been heard at their L or d s hips' Bar had indulged in every license possible; they had commented on Peers who were present, and Peers who were not present; on men and measures of all descriptions ; on' the Bill which was in the House, and on the Bill not in the House ; on the English Municipal Corporation Bill, which it was their pro vince to discuss; and on the Irish Municipal Corporation Bill, which it was not their province to discuss. He did not complain of this : in the first place, because God forbid that he should hamper any counsel in the execution of his duty. and more especially at that bar : and still more especially is a ease respecting which the opinions of men were so greatly divided. Under such circumstances, he should h ave regretted that they s h ou ld h ave had a shadow of a shade of ground for stating that they had not been allowed to go t ee s h e u tmost extent of possible licence. Counsel so free so unfettered, h e never heard. No Noble Lord on either: side was disposed t° take offence, however irregular, ous, however reiterated the P :guments of the learned counsel. His last reason for ) 7. - owever dull, however tedi had been allowed not complaining of the full liberty which them was, that they h a d d ec l a red that they felt th That utmost possible respect fur their Lordships; ":"e T T spect he reciprocated with those learned persons; an a , ~e therefor e cou ld not h elp expressing his astonishment t h at men of such high professional character did not perceive_ how groundless an d i napp li cable were the illustrat i on s which they applied to the forlorn hope of this most tlnt e. nable case. The Learned Counsel who spoke on Satuidal had quoted Hallam and Fox in support of his argument' against the commission. By the way a man learnt something, every day; and h e (L or d B rougham) had never before heard that James IL, though a misguided was a most amiable Tan; But the rese m bl ances between the present comm i ss i on .ane the commission to which Hallam and Fox alluded, were as dig.' similar as those of which Horace spoke in the Ars Poetics; Undoubtedly there were two words, " commission " and " regulate," which were common to them all. 6. There is river in Macedon, look you ; and there is a river in Wales. But the commissions of James 11. were to confiscate at once , without coming to Parliament; the commission on which the present Bill was founded was merely to inquire. Thedu" ference was so striking that it was astonishing their resew blance should have been insisted on. Mr. Fox asked,. why send to judges, why not go to Parliament ? Sir Charles Wetherell asked, why not send to judges ? and eschewed Parliament. The gravamen of the charge of the former Wa" that resort was not had to Parliament; the gravamen o f the charge of the latter was that resort was had to Parliament. He (Lord Brougham) was prepared to show their Lordships that all practice and all principle were in consonance with the course which had been pursued on the present occasion. An°, first for th e pr i nc i p l e. It was contended by the Learned Counsel that the Crown had not power to authorise the meat' hers of such a Commission to receive evidence on oath. the Crown had power to authorise persons to administer oaths judicially : which was a much stronger case. No one would: deny that the Crown had the power of appointing a common law court, in which the judge, the jury, and the witnessq were all sworn. It would be a strange anomaly indeed i t the Crown, p ossess i ng t h e larger, did not possess the smalle r , power. No w , w i t h respect to the practice, it had occurred in a multitude of 'cases since the revolution ; in no fevrel; than 57 since 1715. He would mention only a few, of them. There was the Chancery Commission. The odes' of the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of a borough wer e primarily public ; although to those offices incidentallY , remotely, contingently, private emolument occasionally be; longed. B ut was not private emolument connected wit" the offices inqui re d i nto under Lord Eldon's Commission , Had they not been frequently told that the judicial sinecure s which were the subjects of that Commission were privateyr° - perty, and that to trench upon them was to trench upon tre, e : holds? Now, however, it se eme d that Commissioners might attack judi".. : .al sinecure s w ith i mpun i ty ; . b at that they must not inn& the hallowed precincts of the rights of _the None? Of a Corporation. The Irish Ecclesiastical Commission, in 1830, directed an inquiry to be made whether the salaries or dered by law to b e p a id b y t h e rectors of parishes to then' curates were actually paid. How jacobinical ! To call till, every clergyma n o f a par i s h to declare whether or not he pa! " his curate the sum prescribed by law ! There was nothing the present C omm i ss i on w hi ch could by any perversity 0! reasoning be shown to be at all like that. But it had been asked, was ever Sovereign so ill treated that the Lord Chan" cellor should affix the Great Seal to a Commission,' the pow era of which every little attorney in the country might defy • It had been said with emphasis, that those who had issued the • Commission did not dare to go into the Court of King' s Bench and indict persons who refused to obey it. I n the first place, it was not desirable to take -political matters int° the Court of King's Bench, more especially if all that Wa s wanted was got without. Why, because out of numeroul cases there were seven or eight of refusal, should they tak e such a step merely to avoid being told in solemn and sonorous tones that they did not dare do so? For his-part he would rather have his ears pierced with this vehement "dare," than go to the Court of King's Bench uselessly.--( Hear, hear.) What if out of the two thousand Irish parsons who had bee n subjected to the inquiry of the Ecclesiastical Commissieq , fifty had refused, leaving nineteen hundred and fifty free an swerers, so that the object of the Commission was not oh' structed? He knew the Noble Duke who had issued that Commission, and the Noble and Learned Lord who had af fixed the Great Seal to it, too well to suppose that they won't' have dared to go to the Court of King's Bench on such a foal" errand as to indict those parsons who had refused to answer. In all such cases, doubts existed as to the power of the Crovea, to enforce its authority. He had known many refusals ; bo never knew one of these brought into the Court of King' s Bench. With respect to the Commission, it might he tha t among the twenty mom b ers o f i t, one or two might possibly, not have acted with perfect prudence and propriety. But t i the Commission had never issued, the Bills tinder their Lord ships' consideration would stand on their own merits. ing, therefore, every tittle of what the Learned Connie' had said against the Commission would not be to alley any thing against the measure. It was said by the Learned Counsel that two •of the Commissioners had gone to Ply! mouth, and pronounced a panegyric upon the Plymoutlk Corporation, as a per f ect specimen of a municipal b o d y; and yet that it appeared that they had sold a presentation to a living, and neg l ecte d to repair the church, for the purpose °', building a theatre and an hotel. Now that Corporation was eledted by the freemen ; which it was the object o f the present Bill hendeforth to prevent. It turned out, however, that the whol e o f t h e C orporat i on property of Plymouth was in the hands of four hundred and odd freemen, th e great bulk cf whom were non-residents. A great sensation had been produced by reading a passage from the report, in which it was stated that an alderman of East Retford had been found collaring in a culprit who had been brought be fore him, and rolling with him on the floor, which wag denied. Now he had seen a copy of the actual deposition before the Commissioners as it appeared in a provincial news paper, in which it was stated that Mr. Thomas Rigsby, a respectable solicitor an d partner to the late town-clerk, bad sworn that he was present when a person, charged with some offence, was brought before Mr. Alderman Swaney, that ite, (Mr. Rigsby) h a pp ene d to go out for a few moments, an d that on his return he found that the alderman had collared the culprit, and that they were rolling on the floor together- This, certainly, was not perfectly decorous. The wenn?" stance might, or might not, be true--but it had been sworn to; and he tad mentioned it to exculpate the Commissioner (Mr. Rushton) from the imputation of having listened t° • mere gossip. In another part of the Report, it was stated that a Noble Duke, having given an office in his gift to a worthy and respectable man, he had always afterwards voted for the Duke. That was no charge against the Duke; it was a charge against the voter. The Duke of NEWCASTLE observe(' that it was his grandfather who was alluded to. • Lord BROUGHAM said that it was a matter of perfect indifference whether the ease was true or not. He came nosy to speak of some of the members of the Commission. Two 0f them (Mr. Bl ac kb urne and Sir P. Pal grave ) were C en ts" , Commissioners.—[[lere the Noble and Learned Lord coot' plained of the loud conversation which was going on below tho bar. He was persuaded that the heat there must be very great; and he hoped the persons there assembled would be please' to take his advice, and retire for a little fresh air.] Of the two Commissioners whom he had named, one protested against the Report; the other signed it. Of the remaining sixteen e t seventeen one, certainly not the least able, had entered a Pr o : test against the Report in the most decided and vehenee.°' language. This Gentleman's friends —those who knew best —could not, and did not, he was informed, believe that he was serious in most of the observation's contained in his Re port. That Mr. Hogg should have, with the sentiment s which he (Lord Brougham) knew him to entertain,,put his name to such a document, really filled him with astonishment' He could only account for it by a reference to the tempera ment of Me. Hogg ; for he had known him many years on the northern circuit, and a more witty and humorous pers eal was nowhere to be found ; and he could not look on his ge"' port but i n the light of a st r i ng o f j o k es. I n one part Of his Report h e thus expressed hi mse lf :.--" As one of hi s Majesty's Commissioners, I can certify, without hesitation, and for rea sons which shall hereafter appear, that county magistrates ar e more satisfactory than borough magistrates," Why, gracio° God ! nothing was more universally known ; the fact was, s commonly understood, that when any act of irregularity wa s committed, in the administration of justice, it was said to be done by a "chartered justice." In another part he said, " Re form must extend to every root, summit, or extremity; pene trating and invigorating every part ; Complete, yet temper and judicious." He (Lord Brougham) desired no grea te A concession; if the reform of the Corporations at . e. :. and invigorated every part " of them, for it must be a thorough reform of them.—( Hear , he np it was all be. wentee; The only question was—ls this measure a thorough reforrie,?. did require witnesses or evidence to be gnat/led to answer thas 1.1,11. ;1