The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-13 00:00:00

13ring in the Bill that an opportunity might be afforded to re fer it to the same Committee.—Leave given. BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS—WITNESSES' IN DEMNITY BILL. Mr. W. H. ORD, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to indemnify witnesses giving evidence before Parliamentary Committees in cases of bribery, said that as a Bill for a similar purpose had been lost last year in the other House upon matters of form, and as the present bill contained provisions of the same nature, he hoped that under these circumstances, he would not meet with any oppo sition in bringing in the present bill. In this hope he would not trouble the House farther, but would merely move for leave to bring in the bill.—Leave granted. RATHCORMAC AFFAIR. Mr. DOBBIN, pursuant to notice, begged leave to move that a copy of the proceedings had at an investigation, held at Armagh, of the transactions which took place at Keady, in the county of Armagh, between the Magistrates, the police, and she Orangemen, on the sth November last, with all the docu ments connected therewith, be printed and laid on the table of the House; also a copy of the proceedings of an investigation held also at Armagh, of the transactions which took place at Keady, between the police and the country people, in collect ing the arrear of tithe due to the Rev. James Blacker, wherein one man was killed and several wounded, with a copy of the inquest. Sir H. HARD LNG E said it was not in his power to grant the first of these papers at the present moment, the Crown So licitor having taken those very papers away with him in order to institute proceedings at the Assizes against such persons as in his opinion might have been in error. After a few words from Mr. FINN, Mr. LITTLETON thought the papers asked for should not be refused. Sir H. HARDINGE was not objecting to give the papers at all ; but until the intended trials were over he thought they should not be produced. Besides, as he before said, he had not the papers in his possession at the p7sentmr,ment. Mr. H. GRATTAN spoke with cons!de:dole warmth and at some length against the interference o f the Orange party in Ireland. He held in his hand a l':,:cter from his own agent 4 ,7 1 Ireland, a grave steady char - ,:ter, which gave fearful evidence of the existence of th:s e:,:,1. Sir R. PEEL *:sas almost sorry that the Hon. Gentleman bad not substit: ate d f or some parts of his address, the substance of the eem.inunication he had received from his agent, who, it appeared, was a very grave and steady character; and he had no doubt that what he said would have been more to the pur se than some of the Member's observations.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member who originated this motion moved for two sets of papers—the latter of these papers referred to a case in - which no judicial proceeding had been commenced ; rewards bad been offered by proclamation for the discovery of the de linquents, but without success. Now the paper relating to this transaction his Right Hon. Friend was prepared to give. But on the other motion relating to transactions upon which trials were now pending, he hoped the Hon. Member opposite would postpone that part of his motion for the present, and not press for papers the production of which might frustrate the en4s of justice.—( Hear, hear.) - Mr. ROEBUCK said that though all the papers were moved for to-night, it did not follow that they should all be im mediately produced. Let their production be acquiesced in now, and they could be produced at the proper opportunity. Sir R. PEEL said an order of the House of Commons for papers ought to be immediately complied with. Mr. DOBBIN acquiesced in the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet, and withdrew the first part of his motion. The second part of the motion having been read and put from the Chair, Sir H. HARDINGE said that the Hon. Member would have an opportunity on the production of the papers of proving all his charges, and would see that every step consistent with the preservation of the public peace and the vindication of justice was taken by the Government.—( Hear.) Mr. DOBBIN would consent in that case to withdraw his motion.—( No, no, frees the Irish agitators.) The motion was then agreed to. Mr. DOBBIN-00 moving the third part of his general motion—namely, for a copy of the proceedings had at an inves tigation held at Armagh on the transactions which took place in that town and neighbourhood on the 15th of January last, and the following week, during which period several houses in town were wrecked, and fourteen Catholic houses burned in the neighbourhood by a body of Orange men, together with the several papers connected there with, and that the whole be printed for the information of the Members of that House--said, there were between 1,000 and 1,600 Orangemen marched into the town of Armagh with the banners and signs of their Order, to the dismay of the population, and disorder ensued. The Honourable Member opposite, the Gallant Colonel, was at the time being chaired throughout town. He was ashamed of the proceedings, and he abandoned it. That proceeding of the Orangemen was the ori g in of all the dis turbance that ensued. About one hundred and forty houses of the Catholics were wrecked, and on the next day fourteen houses were burned to the ground.—(" Oh, oh," and loud murmers of dissent from the Ministerial side.) The Hon. Baronet spoke of the cordial union of Catholics and Protes tants in that part of the country as evidence of the exaggera tion of the statements put forth by the friends of Liberal prin ciples on the present occasion. He (Mr. Dobbin) would be happy to concur with him if he could. The Hon. Member then read a letter from a gentleman from Armagh in support of his position. Sir H. HARDING E said every effort of the Irish Go vernment was directed to discountenance those exhibitions of party feeling and party strength—(Loud cries of " Hear") — and what was more, to bring to retributive justice those indi viduals that transgressed the law, and disturbed the public re pose.--( Cheers.) Government instituted an inquiry when the facts were laid before it ; what more could be expected from it ?—( Hear, hear.) He should state, in contradiction to the averments of the Honourable Member, that in place of fourteen houses having been burned, only seven were shown to hale been burned. Was it not sufficient to call for the eno:airy ? What more could be expected at present ? Lord MANDE VILLE next addressed the House. There was no foundation for the accusation. The investigation was about a brawl at a public-house. He (Lord Mandeville) at tended the investigation, and he could assure the House that there was no evidence whatever that the outrage was perpe trated by Orangemen ; on the contrary, there was distinct evidence that the rioters were not Orangemen.—( Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.) The history of these feuds was this :—At races held before this outrage, a party of Catholics had surprised and attacked a body of Orange men who were not prepared for and did not expect any hostility from their opponents.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ano ther race was held in another part of the county soon after, and the Protestants came prepared for their defence. There the Catholics again mustered strong, and having provoked the Protestants there ensued la second fight, in which the Catholics were worsted. Then came the races of Armagh. The Lord-Lieutenant got intimation that a riot was meditated, and issued an order for the suppression of the races. After this the Catholics, animated by a strong feeling of animosity towards the Protestants, absolutely went about marking each obnoxious Protestant for vengeance. One Pro testant and his daughter on going to church were waylaid, and beaten to such an excess that their lives were despaired of. The houses of other Protestants were subsequently at tacked and absolutely wrecked. Then the Protestants took fire, and naturally. This was the origin of the disturbances now complained of. There were as many as six wounded Orangemen, the victims of Catholic outrage. The conse quence was, that the Protestants turned out and burned seven, not fourteen, houses - of the Catholics. After that 400 Ca tholics, all armed, turned out and attacked the Protestants in discriminately. The Protestants, to the number of 300, turned ?out next, and repelled the invasion on their houses, property, and lives. The case was brought before the Irish Government, and an investigation was ordered. The Lord- Lieutenant, whose duty it was to act impartially, summoned only the Magistrates who belonged to one party, the Catholic party.—( Hear, hear.) He absolutely excluded Magistrates who were known to be friendly to the Protestant party.— ( Cheers from the Opposition.) When it was a complicated inquiry, involving the interest of two parties, why, he would ask, should the inquiry be conducted by the partisans on one side only? The Lord Lieutenant's conduct was highly re prehensible. He selected his own Court, formed his own tribunal, selected his own witnesses—for even the witnesses were all chosen from one side, to the utter exclusion of re butting evidence. He did more—he made the investigation a scant and partial one.—( Hear, hear.) He excluded th public press--there was no official reporter admitted..—the reporters for the press , were excluded—all was done within closed doors, and by the organs of a particular party. The Noble Lord proceeded to make other observations directly contradictory of the statements of some Hon. Members of the Repeal party, which were very indistinctly heard in the Gallery. Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that the Noble Lord had de clared the Catholics were armed, and therefore it was neces sary the Protestants would drive the Catholics into the sea, if they got one good field day.—( Hear, and laughter.) " Words were but wind, While actions spoke the mind." When he saw the defenders of the Orangemen on the Treasury benches he could expect little conciliation, little relief, to the Irish people. The Right Hon. Secretary, Mr. Blackburn, attended the tithe levy, not as a Magistrate, yet he was a Magistrate, and attended a scene where thirty-seven police men were let loose on the people. He had no confidence in the declaration of Government that the gret aim was to put an end to party feeling in Ireland. He had no confidence in the late Government, for their professions were falsified by their acts. They gave him a Commission, and when they put him to the trouble of the inquiry they did nothing.—( Hear and laughter.) The Orangemen were now become too powerful to be interfered with. He had no confidence, there fore, in the present Administration, nor in any Administra tion. His confidence was in the pressure from without.— ( Hear, hear. ) . Mr. C URTE IS said Magistrates should not be employed in the collection of tithes due to themselves. Sir R. PEEL said on the production of the papers in the present case, the determination of the Government as to the attendance of Magistrates on such missions would be explained to the House. It would then appear that the view of Govern ment was that neither Magistrates, interested parties, nor Clergymen should attend tithe levies.—( Hear.) Sir H. HARDINGE wished the time of the House to be spared from those angry discussions between opposite parties. —(Vestr..heat.)l Their conduct was strictly impartial, and, as a g . psteviclence,pf-i , the Noble Lord b e hi n d him (Nlande ville)ituiid theCloier ent had erred on on e s id e , th at was, I" ,\ --byfpurfrping a course of ; he most rigid impartiality.—( Cheers ( 7t from - Elie Ministorial•be es. ) --Dl,-.kUSIIINGIVI thought that on one point at least Ariginitti out of., ft sent discussion there could be no dif 1, klente ini "•' e meant that if the assertions of the 1;;;.5... at) I tio 3 as 'Po— Noble Lord (Mandeville) vrtrt toftect, Lord Gosford was not a fit person to renlaln in the important situation of Lord Lieu tenant of the county Armagh.—( Hear, hear.) He maintained that it was the duty of the Noble Lord, as an upright and honest Magistrate, to represent the conduct of the Noble Earl, whom he accused, to the Government, with a view to its re- ceiving a strict investigation. Honouiably, he could not avoid doing so ; but at all events the House was now bound to inter fere. Justice would be paralysed if any man guilty of one . half of what Lord Gosfora was accused was suffered to retain the post of Lord Lieutenant; but as the subject had been broached incidentally, and without notice being given, so that art answer might be made on the Noble Earl's part, he en treated the House to suspend their judgments upon It until the Noble Lord did that which now he must do—by bringing for ward proof of the truth of his assertions--either to save his own character, or for ever to destroy that of Earl Gosford.—( Hear, hear.) One other point and he had done. It appeared that certain outrages had been committed at Armagh. but hitherto it had been found impossible to discover the perpetrators. This the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland had stated to the House, adding at the same time an earnest desire that Government might be able to bring them to justice. That desire might now be accomplished; for if the Noble Lord's assertions were to be believed it was in his power to identify and bring the parties to justice.—(Hear, hear.) For his part he only hoped the law would be enforced impar tially, for until that was done, Ireland must be a perpetual source of trouble to the Legislature. It was really disgraceful that an assembly should be, as the British House of Commons now was, night after night and day after day having its pre cious time wasted in discussions as to whether this outrage at Rathcormac or that riot at Armagh should undergo incesti. gation, as if there could be a question that every such violation of the law ought not to be inquired into and punished by the Government. It did seem as though the Government were resolved upon giving coun_tnnance to the Orange party to the prejudice of its opponents ; and while that was the case, there never would wanting leaders to incite the multitude to violence, _ _ _ Sir R. BATE SON rose to entreat Hon. Members not to express an opinion until they were better acquainted with the facts than they were likely to be from the speeches of the Hon. Members who had spoken on the other side of the House. They were continually hearing, from the other side of the House, of midnight outrages ; and they were told, that as long as the present Government remained in office, there was safety for neither life nor property in Ireland.—( Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) It was easy to cheer, but doing so did not of itself prove the truth of the assertion.—( Hear, hear.) As to himself, he believed it to be as great a falsehood as could be concocted, and he was happy to say that all the re spectability of that part of the country from which he (Sir R. Bateson) came, fully agreed with him in opinion. All that the gentry and magistrates of Ireland required was even-handed justice. They sought for no partiality—they looked for no favour. He ( Sir R. Bateson) never was a party man, and all he wanted was justice to men of all religious opinions. As to the allegation that his Majesty's Government countenanced a certain party in Ireland, he did not believe it, and was prepared to prove it was not the fact.—( Hear.) Indeed its best refu tation was to be found in the fact, that both extremes of the Irish parties were equally disappointed at the course of policy the Government had adopted. He addressed himself parti cularly to English Members, for he knew it was quite useless to address the few who arrogated to themselves the title of " The Irish Representatives par excellence," and he asked them not to believe what they heard night after night reiterated about Ireland, in speeches only made to keep up that party feeling which it was the wish of every sincere friend of Ireland to put down.—( Hear.) He complained that the Hon. Members for Ireland who were in the habit of speaking from the other side of the House always took the same side of the question, and never allowed their opinions to coincide with those expressed on his side.—( A laugh.) An Hon. MEMBER wished to know when it was the Irish Government intimated to the Clergy in the Commission of the Peace their wishes that they should not interfere in the collection of their own tithes? Sir H. HA RDINGE replied, that immediately on his ar rival in Dublin, he sent round to the Magistracy a circular let ter, requesting that they should not act in their Magisterial capacity in any case where they happened to be interested par ties, and in doing so he availed himself of the opportunity to lay it down as a rule that no clergyman should interfere in the collection of his own tithes. Colonel VERNER (in explanation) entered into some particulars connected with the transactions to which the mo tion referred ; but owing to our pAtion we were unable to collect them. We understood him to ask why the Protestants of Ireland were the only parties prevented from keeping arms. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin told the House last Session, that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were not only armed, but well armed ; and why, he wished to know, should not the Protestants have the same privilege ? Mr. O'CONNELL—What I said was, that the Roman Catholics in the North of Ireland had acquired arms, and that in parts of it they were well armed. Colonel VERNER continued. He wanted to know if the only acknowledged friends of the British connection in Ire land were to be the only persons not allowed to carry arms ? An Hon. MEMBER complained that when the North of Ireland was in a state bordering on civil war, the Secretary for the Home Department should have added fuel to the flame by receiving the addresses of the Orange Lodges. He thought the House was bound to exact a pledge that this error should not be repeated. After a few words in reply from Mr. DOBBIN, and in expla nation from Col. VERNER, Mr. O'CONNELL begged to remind the House that, at the time he stated the Catholics of the North of Ireland were armed he added his regret that such should be the case. He wished that neither party in Ireland should be allowed to retain arms. The motion was then agreed to. DISSOLUTION OF THE LATE CABINET. _ _ HAY,Colonel LEITH in pursuance of notice, moved for a copy of a despatch to the Governor of British Guiana, from the Colonial Office, dated the 29th of November last, an nouncing the dissolution of Lord Melbourne's Cabinet. The Hon. Member stated he moved for this document preparatory to bringing forward a motion relating to the conduct of the Noble Duke the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in assuming to himself, upon the dissolution of the late Cabinet, all the prin cipal offices of the Government. He understood that his pre sent motion was not to be objected to, and therefore would abstain from all observation. Col. EVANS expressed his satisfaction at the prospect of having the opinion of the House upOn the conduct of the Duke of Wellington at the period to which the Hon. and Gallant Member alluded. Had no other Member taken up the subject it was jiis intention to have done so. The motion was then agreed to. CINQUE PORTS. Sir T. TROUBRIDGE rose to move for the return of all appointments made during the last ten years by or under the control of the Lord Warden of the Cinque Posts, specifying the particular duties attached to each and the respective sala ries, fees, and emoluments thereto attached, and from what funds such emoluments are derived. Mr. WILLIAMS (as we understood) in seconding this motion, was desirous of knowing whether it was the intention of the Government to adopt any different system with regard to the appointment of pilots ? He believed that appointments were made at present without reference to the fitness of the in dividuals. Mr. HERRIES said that it had been under contemplation to appoint a Commission of Inquiry to inquire into this most important subject, and that it was the intention of Government shortly to do so. Mr. PRICE said that no improper influence was exercised in the appointment of pilots, they being first subject to an examination as rigorous as those appointed by the Trinity Board. . After a long and desultory conversation, in which Mr. PRICE, Sir H. HARDINGE, Mr. GOULBURN, and others took part, the motion was agreed to. Sir T. TROUBRIDGE then moved for a return of the sums annually expended for ref airs or other incidental charges for the last ten years on IValmer Castle ; also that the papers presented to that House relative to Ramsgate harbour be printed.—Agreed to. EMPLOYMENT OF MILITARY AT ELECTIONS IN IRELAND. Mr. MULLINS moved for copies of any correspondence between the Lord Lieutenants and Magistrates of the several counties of Ireland and the Irish Government previously to and during the late elections, on the subject of such elections, with reference to the distribution and employment of the mi litary force, and to the apprehending obstructions of the free dom of election. Sir H. HARDINGE had no objection to the production of the papers, and when they were produced he took that op portunity of informing the House he should move that all the reports relating to matters occurring previously to and at the elections should be referred to the Committee on bribery and intimidation.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the employment of the military the papers when produced would prove they had never been employed but on grounds perfectly justifiable. Mr. C. O'DWYER read a letter from a Roman Catholic priest, detailing the conduct of the military at some place in Ireland, where the writer stated soldiers had been placed close to the doors of the chapel for two Sundays together, and that the people were afraid to go to mass, believing that their as sembling would be a signal for the troops to fire.—(Loud cries of Oh, oh.) Sir H. HARDINGE thought it very advisable for Hon. Gentlemen to avoid discussion when moving for returns of pa pers. He had endeavoured to do so, but was provoked into reply by statements that were made on the opposite side of the House. He had heard of outrages such as the Hon. Gentle man alluded to at Borris, where it was stated that people were pulled out of their pews, the pews destroyed, and the people dragged into the streets and severely beaten. Similar scenes, it had been asserted, had taken place several times subsequent to the Carlow election, when neither the influence of the priests nor the sanctuary of the temple were any protection. If Hon. Members would favour him with the names of parties engaged in such alleged disturbances, he would promise to in stitute the proper inquiries, and give them satisfactory answers. As far as he was able to judge, the conduct of the military had been on all occasions most exemplary. Depending on the re turns of Sir Hussey Vivian, he was authorized to say so. Mr. F. O'CONNOR at the election alluded to was rather surprised, when about to address the people, to find himself surrounded by drawn swords and fixed bayonets, but he ma naged to keep the soldiers in good temper by talking of the impolicy of flogging in the army--(laughter)--of the evils of unmerited pensions, and the 'propriety of appropriating such pensions to the relief of the widow and the orphan—( Loud laughter, which drowned the continuation of the Hon Mem ber's reply; but in which he was understood not to assent to the remark of the HMI. and Gallant Officer, Sir H. Har dinge, as to the universal good conduct of the military.) Sir H. HARDINGE had seen a letter written by the Hon, TILE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, MARCH 13, 1535. and Learned Member for Dublin to Sir H. Vivian, in which the Hon. and Learned Member praised the conduct of the military at Youghal as having been admirable. As proof, too, of the good effects of employing that force, he begged to call the attention of the House to this fact—that, in 1832, troops were not employed, and in Carlow fourteen men were actually killed ; in 1834 they were employed, and there was only one man killed, and that was in Meath. Mr. O'CONNELL could not complain of the conduct of the military, but their conduct reflected - no credit on the ma gistracy, but on the gentlemen of the army and the good feel ing of the soldiers themselves. In the letter alluded to by the Hon. and Gallant Officer, he did not, as was supposed, ex press so much satisfaction at the conduct of the military in itself, as he did a preference to it when compared with that of the police. It had been stated that, in 1831, murders had taken place, and that, in 1834, there were none— Colonel PE RCEVAL--One only. Mr. O'CONNELL--One only, and that was in the county remarkable for its brotherly love. There were none killed in the southern counties. Sir HENRY HARDINGE was understood to say, that there had been one in Sligo, and two in Dungarvan. The military always acted according to the direction of the Sheriffs and Returning officers ; and the Government, if applied to, were bound to obey the request of civil officers, and supply the troops demanded. Mr. J. O'CONNELL bore testimony to the advantage derived from the presence of the military at elections in Ire land, at the same time that he felt bound on all occasions to object to their introduction, as unconstitutional. Colonel BRUEN, as representative of a large county (Carlow), could not let the opportunity pass of adding his testimony to that already borne to the efficiency and good con duct of the military ; and also to the particular necessity which existed almost always in Ireland for their presence at elections, but more especially at the last election in that king- _ dom.—( Cheers. ) Mr. H. GRATTAN begged also to add his meed of praise to that which had already been bestowed on the military. Their conduct, contrasted with that of the police, was decid edly in their favour. Colonel EVANS said that he had been in Carlow at the late election for that borough, and on that occasion ho had seen a display of military, horse and foot, which would have led him to suppose the town was in danger of destruction. Yet he did not perceive the least appearance of excitement among the people, or even anything like a crowd, to warrant such a display of armed force. In England elections partook of the nature of a solemn civil ceremony. In Ireland, on the con- trary, they appeared to partake of a military character. In Eng. land the military never appeared at elections without the mos absolute necessity existed ; in Ireland they were called out and paraded in all places before any necessity was even thought of. With respect to the question at issue—the conduct of the Ma gistracy—he thought the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had gone beyond his duty in declaring his belief in their inno cence. It was like prejudging the question, and could not but have its effect in prejudicing the course of justice. He trusted, however, that the Committee would give the whole subject the fullest investigation. Sir H. HARDINGE rose to reply. The SPEAKER, however, decided that he was out of or der in speaking twice in the same debate. He could not per mit him to proceed, however anxious he might be to do so, or ha vever important he might deem it, without premising that he did it upon sufferance. This he was compelled to do for fear of establishing a precedent which would be adduced on all future occasions by other Hon. Members. Sir H. HARDINGE bowed to the decision of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which he admitted to be both just and ne cessary. It was, in his opinion, most improper to anticipate a debate on papers granted by the Government, but which had not as yet been produced. Mr. MULLINS replied. Sir H. HARDINGE gave notice that when those papers were laid on the table of the House, he should move that they be referred to the Committee. Mr. BARRON knew of a great many cases where the Magistrates had acted most grossly and unjustly, first in call ing out the military, and then in using them. The motion was then agreed to. ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward his Bill for the better administration of jus tice in the Ecclesiastical Courts, founded upon a report of the Ecclesiastical Commission, which, as we understood him, he meant to follow up with another on reform in Ecclesiastical Discipline. The object he had in view by the Bill for the in troduction of which he begged leave to move, was the con solidation of some three or four hundred various ecclesiastical tribunals, dispersed all over the country, into one Court ; which was to hold its sittings in London or anywhere else his Majesty, in his gracious pleasure, might see fit to appoint. —( Hear, hear.) It was intended to give this consolidated Court a greater degree of ecclesiastical power than was possessed by any of the Ecclesiastical Courts singly at present, in order that its jurisdiction in some things might be extended to a point to which the jurisdiction of none of the existent Courts reached, while it was also intended to remove from its jurisdiction many matters now taken cognizance of by its authority. It was proposed to abolish the Court of Appeal in ecclesiastical causes, and to transfer its jurisdiction to the Privy Council.--( Cries of " Hear, hear.") The effect of these alterations would be to bring into one complete system, and under one distinct arrangement, a variety of most important urisdictiens at present exercised in point of practice by noless than eight or ten superior Courts and three or four hundred inferior tribunals.—( Hear.) Before he should go farther he deemed it right to state to the House the origin of the measure he was about to propose to their consideration, as well as the share he had in their produc tion. In 1830 a Commission was appointed for the purpose of inquiring into and investigating ecclesiastical matters. In July of the same year the Commission was renewed. In two years subsequent they made their report. Never did he in his professional or parliamentary experience peruse a docu ment so fraught with learning and research, or one which con tained a greater number of most valuable facts, or a greater quantity of important information. And it was but justice to add that he believed the principal part of its composition was due to the Honourable and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets.—( Hear.) On the valuable information and sug gestions contained in that report, a Bill had been prepared last year, which Bill had received the sanction of all those in dividuals whose opinions were of importance. Among them was the Honourable and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, who had always expressed his great anxiety for its advancement, notwithstanding he (the Attorney-General) had no hesitation in saying that it might be professionally inju rious to him. On that Bill was the present Bill based ; indeed both were identical. It embraced a great variety of provisions, but lie should only call the attention of the House to two of them. The first was that which related to the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastioal Courts; the second re. lated to the discipline of the Clergy, and in calling the atten tion of the House exclusively to these, he did not wish to be understood that the others were of no importance. On the contrary, every provision in it was important to the commu nity, but he selected these as being of paramount importance. With respect to the consolidation of the present Ecclesiastical Courts, he was sure the House would bear him out when he designated it as an advantage to the country.—( Hear.) It was utterly impossible that in three or four hundred tri bunals there should not be various and contradictory de cisions; and that . Archdeacons acting as judges in one, procters in another, and manorial officers in a third, should not give rise to inextricable confusion in the administration of the law, and in many instances lead to a denial of justice.—(Hear.) His Bill proposed, as he had already said, to consolidate these, and thus to prevent these Courts from entertaining contentious jurisdictions. It proposed to limit the jurisdiction of the new Court to matters purely ecclesiastical, and to transfer, to this effect, matters without that definition to the Law Courts ; or, in case the Law Courts could not entertain them, to leave them to be judged by manners and morals. Testamentary cases would be, continued in the new Court as before, while offences pertaining to clerical discipline would be dealt with by a separate tribunal. A class of cases cognizable at present by the Ecclesiastical Courts would also be taken out of its jurisdiction, such, for instance, as defamation, brawling in a church or church-yard, laying violent hands on the person under certain circumstances, and other cases of that nature, which he felt bound to say rather tended to deface than to recommend their proceedings. Defamation he should propose to leave to the ordinary course of common law, and brawl ing, or laying violent hands on the person in a church or churchyard, might be treated in the Courts of Law as an aggravated assault. The cognizance of all offences except those which created a nullity of marriage was to be removed from the jurisdiction of the new Court. These were the prin cipal objects of the Bill he wished to introduce to the notice of the House. With respect to its other parts there was one to which he would beg to call attention. It was the power which the Bill intended to confer on the Judge of the Court of granting issue on a fact, in order that a disputed question might be tried by the constitutional form peculiar to this country—a Jury. An appeal would lie, as he had before observed, from the judgment of the Court to the Privy Coun cil, which would have the effect of satisfying the public mind. There could be no doubt that a Court of Appeal was neces sary, for unless some mode of revising decisions made in haste or error existed, the public could never be fully satisfied. The Ecclesiastical Courts had to deal with most weighty and im portant subjects; a great portion of the wealth of the kingdom passed through their jurisdiction. Everything connected with testamentary :declarations came under their cognisance. It was therefore necessary that this Court should have the power of employing that important machine, the trial by Jury— ( Hear)—and be likewise purified from all inquiry into these trivial matters which had the effect of deforming its proceed ings, and making ridiculous its decisions. One of the most prominent features of this measure was, that this Court was to be constituted in the future a King's Court ; and not the Court of any Archbishop or Bishop. The Judge would be appointed the same as the other Judges of the land; hold his situation on the same tenure, and have the same rank and pri vileges as the others of his Majesty's Judges. These were the principal points in the Bill which he should humbly move for leave to introduce to the House, in accordance with the spirit of his Majesty's most gracious Speech from the throne at the opening of the present session of Parliament. He (the At torney-General) in pursuance of the duty pointed out to him by the passage he alluded to, had not delayed in preparing the measure, and he now brougLt it under the notice of the House in the fulfilment of that duty. He had availed himself of the labours of the Commission in framing it, which he was sure the House would deem an advantage to the measure. He was at all times ready and willing to support any measure of improvement or R9form, emanate from whatever si,de of the House it might— ( Hear)—and he could conscientiously cay, that there was no Hon. Member in that House, and no individual in the com munity, lay or clerical, who was more anxiotze to further real substantial improvements in the law and institutions of the country.—( Hear.) . Dr. L SHINGTON said that there was d portlses of the report of the Commissioners which, if not adopted in the Bill of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, or made the subject of a distinct measure, would defeat all that the Bill before the H ouse proposed to do. It was that part of the report which contained the recommendation of the Commissioners to abolish all the sinecure offices so numerous in connection with the Ecclesiastical Courts. Not less than sixty thousand pounds were divided in this way between the proteges of Bishops and Archbishops. Unless that source of patronage was lopped off the measure would give no satisfaction to the country. One of the highest ecclesiastical personages in the kingdom, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had, on his (Dr. Lushington's) proposition as a Member of that Commission, relinquished at once patronage enjoyed by himself and his pre decessors to the extent of 10,0001. a-year, on which occasion he said to him (Dr. Lushington) within the short space of ten minutes from the moment the proposition was made—" It is so proper and just that I cannot hesitate an instant." In the same spirit every individual of the Right Rev. Bench forming a portion of the Commission relinquished his patronage for the public good. He (Dr. Lushington) hoped that the same spirit would actuate the House when they came to consider the details of the Bill, and that they would unhesitatingly remove these overflowing sources of obloquy and public complaint. With respect to the measure of the Attorney-General, he (Dr. Lushington) felt bound to say such was his sense of its impera tive necessity that he was only restrained from introducing one of the same nature by a knowledge of the fact that it would come with greater weight from the Government, and be more operative in its general effects on the Legislature. The pre ceding Government were undoubtedly very anxious about the matter ; but they had not had time to mature it sufficiently. No blame could, therefore, attach to them for having de layed the production of a measure analagous to the present. So long ago as May last he was compelled, without any op tion, to send to gaol an unfortunate individual convicted of defamation. He had no option ; but in the discharge of his duty upon his solemn oath he sent the man there, and there he was et present, and there he might remain, for ho knew not of any law by which he could be released. This was only one of many instances which illustrated the worst species of trials for defamation. He could not but attribute guilt to the legis lature for not having at an earlier period instituted inquiries into this subject, and for not haying relieved Judges of a duty s o odious. The object of the report most especially was, the entire extinction of what used to be called the cri minal jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts; that was to say, that hereafter no Ecclesiastical Court should exercise the power of punishing any person upon a criminal process. Ano ther branch of the jurisdiction of the Court was that exercised over clergymen. This ought likewise to be taken away, and yet it was impossible that such a power of supervision should be extinct, and it therefore ought to be transferred to another jurisdiction, for which a separate bill would provide, accord ing to the recommendation of the Commission. This Court would take cognizance of all offences committed by clergymen in the neglect of the discharge of their duty; but it would not, in the slightest degree, inter fere with the present jurisdiction of the Courts of Com mon Law in any other offences that the Clergy might com mit. The instituting of this new Court would be for the purpose of establishing a fair, impartial, and not expensive tribunal, for the purpose of correcting in time all impro prieties and neglects in the ministers of religion, and of cor recting them, not at a period when public scandal had been so excited, that the Bishops themselves, as had been the case in many instances, had been compelled to take the duty of correction upon them, and at their own expense. The esta blishment of this jurisdiction would confirm more strongly the affections which still remained in the people of this country for the Established Church. All that would remain for the present Ecclesiastical Courts to perform after the present Bill should have passed would be the determination upon matrimo nial and testamentary causes. These were causes unquestion ably of very great importance, and no man who sat in that House, or who was not in that House, could feel but the deepest interest in the reform of the Courts which had to ad minister justice in such cases. Independent of the importance attached to the separation of husband and wife, the question of nullity of marriage involved the question of legitimacy, and the question of legitimacy involved the rights of property to an immense amount. With respect to testamentary causes in his humble judgment if the House did its duty to the public there ought not to remain any difference of law with respect to decisions upon the devising of real and personal property. He never had been satisfied that it was for the interest of the public that the disposing of real and personal property should be tried by a jury in one case, and by another species of tribu nal in another. The expenses of another trial were not jus tified. The measure now introduced, when it came to be duly considered, would make every man of opinion that a more im portant Bill of Reform had never yet been suggested to the House. It was a measure which every Member would find to involve his own interests, and he cordially thanked his Hon. and Learned Friend, his Majesty's Attorney-General, for hav ing availed himself of the earliest opportunity of bringing the measure forward. Sir J. CAMPBELL rose to express his entire concurrence in the views taken of the subject by his Majesty's Attorney- General and by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets. The moment the report of the Corn- Mission had been presented he had read it with the utmost ad miration. The public were deeply indebted to the Hon, and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, and very great cre dit was due to the Right Rev. Prelates the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, and the Bishops of London and Dur ham, and the other members of the Right Rev. Bench, who had concurred upon the Commission in recommending the the Reform of all the abuses which had so disgraced the law of England, and who for this object had voluntarily consented to part with very valuable patronage. All the parts of the bill which he had read met with his concurrence. The crimi nal jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts ought long ago to have been abolished. He was glad that the bill would abolish between three and four hundred Ecclesiastical and Local Courts, for these were courts purely mishievous. They created great expense, and greater confusion. His Hon. and Learned Friend had said that he intended to bring forward a measure for the administration of local justice throughout the country. He would beseech him not to abolish the jurisdiction of the Diocesan Courts. Let all the Peculiar and Manorial Courts be abolished ; but it would facilitate the business of the country if the probate of wills were to be allowed to remain with the Diocesan Courts. It was possible to centralize too much—to bring proceedings too much to London; and there would be an inconsistency in his Learned and Hon. Friend the Attorney-General bringing in two Bills, the one to create local courts for the trial of civil causes, and another for sweeping away all local courts which took cogni zance of ecclesiastical cases. His Hon. and Learned Friend would find that in this particular he would give umbrage to the country solicitors, a very powerful body, who would be sending numerous petitions on the subject to that House, and who would be able to induce many country gentlemen to vote against the reforms altogether. There was a manifest hard ship in compelling persons from distant parts to come to Lon don to prove a will. Another point was, whether the Su preme Courts ought not to have the power of dissolving mar riages ? Dissolutions of marriage ought to be tried before ecclesiastical jurisdictions, and not before the Legislature. It was a disgrace to the House of Commons, and to the House of Lords, and to the whole country, that whilst marriages by the law of the land were indissoluble, they could be dissolved by prerogative. Dr. NIC HOLL was convinced that the country could not be satisfied if the decisions of such important cases as matrimonial divorces should be left to the decision of one single Judge. He would rather that such decisions should be left to a Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which was a very important tribunal.—( Hear.) He was attached by early prepossessions to the Courts of Doctors' Commons, and he could not bring himself to consider the decision of one single Judge in such cases as satisfactory. With respect to the Diocesan Courts, he was sure the Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets would bear him out in saying that the maintenance of those Courts would be perfectly im practicable if the present Bill were to pass. Mr. PR YME bore testimony to the evils of the present system. He had himself seen in the gaol of Nottingham two women who had been confined there twenty years, because by a mistake, and from conscientious motives, they had had their marriages celebrated not strictly according to law. He con ceived that the present bill went to abolish Courts which ought only to be reformed. Mr. C. FERGUSON having been on the Commission, could bear testimony to the great zeal which the clergy had evinced to reform all abuses, without regard to their own inte rests, or to the loss of their patronage. He conceived the progress of divorce bills through the Houses of Parliament to have been a disgrace to the country. Sir R. PEEL rose, and spoke as follows :—Mr. Speaker, I trust that this House will receive the present measure as the first practical fulfilment of the pledges given in his Ma jesty's Speech from the Throne, that his Majesty's Ministers were desirous of introducing into the administration of the law the most substantial reforms, and of redressing every grievance of which just complaint can be made.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ido hope, at the same time, that the prognosti cation of the nature of this reform will convince the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that it was not necessary to hold over his Majesty's Ministers the menace of limited supplies.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Member will see in the strong and uniform testimony born to the efficacy of this reform, a rg uarantee o o f reforms th e in i t n e n g t e i o n n of e r al. his Sir,Majesty's this ef r M m i n n s t er with the s Ec clesiastical Courts throughout the kingdom is founded on the report of a Commission of Inquiry established upon the advice given by his Grace the Duke of Wellington to the Crown. Nothing, Sir, can be further from my inten tion than to claim for his Majesty's Ministers the exclusive merit of this Reform. Few things are more honourable to party connections in this country than the manifestation on the part of public men of a willingness to co-operate in measures of Reform that are complete and well calculated to promote the public welfare. The Hon. and Learned Member who has spoken last has, with a modesty and forbearance most credita ble to himself, concealed the fact that he was one whose co operation had been of such signal utility to the inquiries of the Commission. The Hon. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, notwithstanding his total alienation from that poli tical party by which this Commission was instituted, was not unwilling to tender his gratuitous and invaluable services to forward all the purposes of the Commission, I do, Sir, say that such conduct redounds much to the honour of the Hon. and Learned Member, and that it redounds generally to the honour of Gentlemen who, notwithstanding all their differences in party politics from the Government of the day, were the first to tender their services to perfect the laws of the country. A grateful testimony has likewise been borne to the dignified Ecclesiastics and to- the Clergy throughout the country, who were willing to sacrifice their private patronage, and to cast aside all personal interests, in order to benefit the country by promoting the objects of the Commission. I find this conduct has been invariable on the part of the Right Reverend Prelates, notwithstanding the attacks that I hate been made on them in other quarters. Yes, Sir, uniformly hate they evinced the same disposition to sacrifice every private consideration, in order to further the progress of useful Reform. As soon as his Majesty's Commission was establithed the first otter made by every member of that Commission, whether Ecclesiastical or lay, was to suspend every appointment to ecclesiastical pre ferments which had not attached to them a cure of souls, until the report of the Commissioners should decide upon the utility or inutility of filling up the places. Such, Sir, has been the conduct of the Archbishop of Canterbury, of the Archbishop of York, of the Bishops of London, of Lincoln, of Gloucester, and of the Lord Chancellor. All signified to the Commis sion that not one of them would make any appointment to any ecclesiastical preferment whatever, till the circumstance of the preferment had undergone the consideration of the Commis sion, and until it had been determined in what manner the preferment could be made most beneficial to t hew n of the Church.—( Hear, hear.) With respect, Sir, to the par ticular measure before the House, I go further—yes, Sir, much further, than some of those Hon. Gentlemen who claim to themselves the title of Reformers. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge advises that the Local Ecclesiastical Courts should be continued in existence, while the whole object of the present Bill is to put an end to these Local Courts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Another Honourable and Learned Member ( Sir J. Campbell) has said that the Dio cesan Courts should be continued, lest the country attorneys might petition the house, and oppose the Bill through the medium of country gentlemen, whom they may be able to influence. Why, Sir, lam a g reater Reformer than even his Majesty's late Attorney-General. If, Sir, the local juris diction be good, maintain it ; if bad, for God's sake, don't let us permit local attorneys, for their private and personal interests, to obstruct the course of Reform. If the . coun try attorneys have any vested rights, any vested interests, in the maintenance of these Courts, let us compensate them ; but if it be useful, if it be for the benefit of the country at large that central Courts shall be established, and that local Courts be abolished, what grounds have country solicitors to obstruct the course of Reform ? I know, Sir, that the country solicitors are a powerful body, but if the present mea sure be right, if centralization be more advantageous to the country than the continuance of local jurisdictions, I see no earthly reason why the power of the country solicitors should impede the progress of Reform. lam one of those who think that the jurisdiction of Parliament ought to be trusted and relied upon. Most undoubtedly no one can witness with any degree of satisfaction the examination of witnesses at the bar of this House on occasions of such a nature ; but still I think that such a proceeding is not without an indirect effect upon the public mind and morals. lam not of opinion that an easy mode of obtaining divorce would be attended with much advantage, nor am I that great admirer of the Scotch system in this re spect that some Hon. Members profess to be. I very much doubt, indeed, that it would be at all for the public benefit that local Courts should have the jurisdiction of granting divorce a mensa a thoro. Such facilities would not be unlikely to lead to much collusion, particularly where females were concerned. The greatest confidence should exist in any tribnnal possessing a jurisdiction of this nature, and too much care cannot be taken in the establishment of such a Court. I should be doing great injustice to Sir John Nichol' and Sir Herbert Jenner if I did not take this occasion to acknowledge the prompt, willing, and efficient assistance I derived from those learned and distinguished civilians, as Members of the Commission, voluntarily tendered immediately on my return from abroad, and my appointment to office. Am I not then justified in saying that where effectual Reform is seen to be necessary, there is no indisposition in the highest authorities of the country to give them both assistance towards so desir able an end.—(Cheers.) I entirely agree, and soon did agree, with those who feel that there never can be a perfect system of law reform established, until all judicial sinecures shall have been destroyed.---(Cheers.) In any measure in tended to be effective, provision must be made to abolish judi cial sinecures.—( Cheers.) I myself introduced a Bill to destroy those abuses, and I believe with no little success and benefit ; but if any still remain uncorrected I will give my support to any Bill, the object of which may be to render as pure as possible every thing connected with the administration of justice.—( Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. PR YME, in explanation, Mr. HUME said that having been personally alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet, he must say a few words upon this occasion. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to imagine that he (Mr. Hume) had altered his determination as to the notice of motion he had given for to-morrow night, in consequence of the measures of reform which the Right Hon. Baronet in tended to bring forward. Now he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that he was not at all influenced by any such consideration. He had always looked upon the Right Hon. Baronet as a plain, straight-forward man, but on the present occasion, in this his first measure of Reform, what had he done? Why, he had only crept into the nest of the old Ad ministration, and was hatching their eggs.--(Laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet took credit for this incubation, although he had sat but a very short time. Why, the Right Hon. Baronet found this very Bill already prepared by the late Government when he came into office, and all the credit due to him was for not putting an end to it. He really had not before thought that the Right Hon. Baronet was a man who would claim credit for what did not belting to him. The Right Hon. Baronet found this Bill cut and dry when he came into office, and had not the late Government been so suddenly removed from power, this was the very first measure they in tended to propose in the present session. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that the credit of the Commission was dtie to the Duke of Wellington and his Government, but he (Mr. Hume) took all the credit of that Commission to himself.— ( Laughter.) Hon. Members might laugh ; but it was never theless true. When a pension was proposed to be given to the son of the late Speaker, who held an office connected with the Ecclesiastical Courts, he divided the House seven times against it.—( Laughter.) This was what opened the eyes of the Government to the existing abuses, and yet the Right Hon. Baronet took all the credit to the Duke of Wellington and himself. He objected to the principle of centralization. The people of Scotland had good local Courts, and why might not the people of England? Was it not very easy to abolish bad local Courts and establish good ones in their stead ? The Right Hon. Baronet need not flatter himself that it was this or any other measure of his that induced him (Mr. Hume) to change his purpose as to the notice of motion he had given. This was a most barefaced bold assumption of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( A laugh.) He would beg to ask the Right Hon. Baronet if he intended to carry out the plan for the establish ment of local Courts designed by the late Government, so as to bring cheap and speedy justice home to every man's door? Sir R. PE E L.—l have been asked a question, whether I intend to propose any measure for the establishment of local Courts to facilitate the administration of justice? I answer that there will be a Bill introduced for that purpose, and the Hon. Member will then have an opportunity of making any propo sition he pleases as to the jurisdiction of those Courts. I never denied that the present Bill had been prepared by the late Go vernment, but what I said was, that the Commission from which this measure emanated originated with the Duke of Wellington's Government. Surely there can be no great merit in the mere act of drawing out the Bill, and putting into clauses the report of the Commission. The Hon. Gen tleman has alluded to the process of incubation, but there are other persons who have eggs to hatch. The Hon. Gentleman laid an egg the other night, but it now appears that he can neither hatch it himself, nor get any one else to hatch it.—( Im mense laughter.) The egg has been laid a week, and last night the Hon. Gentleman said that he would either hatch it himself or get some friendly hen to do so—( Great laughter) —but it turns out that neither himself nor any one else will undertake the process.—( Laughter.) Now, Ido not think it impossible that in this reluctance to incubation may have arisen a perusal of the Motion Book, and seeing the measures of Reform that are intended to be brought forward.---( Loud cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL thought the Right Hon. Baronet ought not to count his chickens before they were hatched.—( A laugh. ) The Right Hon. Baronet might find the Hon. Member for Middlesex a good fighting cock yet--(Laughter)—but the proper time to crow was when the victory was gained. But to speak seriously, on a measure of so much importance as this, there ought to be no party feeling, or party triumph, or party vapouring on such an occasion. The present Bill, and many other measures of Law Reform, would have become law before this, had it not been for the late dissolution of Parlia ment. It was, therefore, an empty boast of the Right Hon. Baronet to take any credit to himself or his party for this Bill. But they were now told that even the Bishops had become Reformers. What, then, had their predecessors been about all their lives, that they could not see any occasion for Re form ? He should like to know if the Right Hon. Baronet was disposed to abolish ecclesiastical sinecures as well as ju dicial sinecures? He feared not; at least, lie was sure they would exist in Ireland as long as the present Administration lasted. This Bill was calculated to lop off only the branches, while it left the trunk untouched. To simplify the law, and make it effective for its purpose, those Ecclesiastical Courts must be got rid of altogether. With respect to marriage, he was of opinion that that was a tie which ought not to be dis solved at all ; but allowing, for argument's sake, that it was advisable, ought not the facility to be as great for the poor man as for the rich ? And was it not notorious that it was only the rich man who could accomplish such a separation, ' owing to the enormous expense. Why should there not be the same law in this respect here as in Scotland. After a few words in explanation from Dr. NICHOLL and Mr. HUME, Mr. SCARLETT had always understood there were two branches of justice, one judicial and the other Ministerial. The Assizes he looked upon to be the local administration of justice, but to have good judicial justice it never could be cheap. He did not say that this ought to be confined to Lon don. Ile thought that it might be better calculated to afford protection if it were brought nearer to the homes of the parties. Colonel PARRY was delighted to see all parties join with so much unanimity in forwarding measures of Reform for the benefit of the country, and not the least who deserved the thanks and gratitude of their country were the Bishops, for the readiness with which they came forward to give up their patronage. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in reply, said the Court would be presided over by a Bishop, who would be always assisted by a legal assessor, and in all cases after the regular progress of the case through the Court, judgment would be followed by speedy execution. The Commission, as he had before said, issued in 1630, but the report was not made until 1832. He did not blame the Government for the delay in bringing any measure on that report. He was far from cast ing any imputation, for he thought that it mattered little from what side of the House such a measure proceeded, so long as it did proceed, and was it ell and maturely considered.—( Hear, hear.) He was anxious in affording information to the House upon this Bill—to give praise where it was justly due. He was ready to commend the late Government for preparing the Bill, and the present Government for giving instant at tention to it. He distinctly mentioned the fact that it had been prepared last session. He only claimed for himself and for the Government with it'fri.eh he had the honour of acting, a readiness to take up and forward *,ay measure of improvement, from whatever quarter it might conic.. Sir J. CAMPBELL said his Hon. and Learned Friend claimed no praise which did not justly belong to him. The Bill was ready last session, and would have been brought forward, but for the many other important measures that were then before the House. He was taunted last session by the Right Hon, Baronet for the number of Bills he then had be fore the House, without bringing any of them to a conclusion. He feared he might have still further incurred such a censure by adding this to the number. Sir ROBERT PEEL—AII I claimed for the present Government was that no obstruction or delay was thrown in the way of this Bill, and that it was brought forward thus early. Mr. HUME meant no comparison between this Govern ment and the last. All he meant was to pluck a feather Or two from the plume of the Right Hon. Baronet, to which he had no right. There was some pleasure in bringing people He a peg lower—( A laugh)—when they arrogated too muc h. hoped, however, he gave no offence. Dr. LUSHINGTON said the Bill was delayed in conse quence of the time of the House being occupied in discussions upon the question of reform. It was no easy matter to pre' pare it. The task was given up in despair by one gentleman. It was ready last session ; he was consulted upon it in the Easter of that session by Lord Althorp, but as the Tithe ques tion and others of importance were to have been brought on, he despaired of being able to get through with it. Sir R. PEEL-1 believe the late Chief Justice of the Ad miralty was at the greatest pains in preparing the Bills. Dr. LUSHINGTON—He certainly presided at the Com mission, and paid the greatest attention to the subject. Sir J. CAMPBELL said the Bills were certainly prePa rea in his office. In answer to a question from Mr. BULLER, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the second reading would not be later than two or three weeks hence. The Bill was then read a first time. On the motion of Mr. WALLACE, various returns wer ordered of the names, incomes, &c. &c., of postmasters and postmistresses in Great Britain and Ireland during the last five years. On the motion of Mr. SULLIVAN various returns we re ordered, connected with county treasurers in Ireland. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Mr. A. JOHNSON rose to move for returns respecting Natirnal Education`2( Ireland), in pursuance of an order of the 13th May, 1834 ; and, in addition, a list of all such books ee are distributed or used under the direction of the Board, With the full titles thereof ; and a list of the schools in which the whole or any of such books are used as class-books ; also returns of the number of Roman Catholic children, of chil dren of the Church of England and Ireland, and of Protestant children of other denominations in each of the schools under the superintendence of the Board ; and that the Commis' sioners state the amount and particulars of any grants made by them to schools connected with or under the superintenden ce of any nunnery, monastery, or other religious institutions er houses ; and also of any grants to schools kept in Roman Ca tholic chapels, or buildings forming part thereof, or contiguous thereto, or within the precincts of the said chapels, with the places where such schools are situated. He understood that some objection was entertained against the use of the expres sion Roman Catholic in this motion. It was not his wish to disparage any religious persuasion. Some peculiar tau s ' however, must be used to designate each. Mr. BARRON objected to the making of any such dig,' tinction, because it was contrary to the principle upon whic h the system of National Education introduced by the late wi Ge vernment had been founded. In the part of Ireland th,' which he was most nearly connected the greatest benefits 1d arisen from acting upon this principle. In his parish the systen was found to work so well, that out of the fifteen heads of Pre testant families who resided there fourteen of them made 111 1 ° plication for a grant towards the erection of another school. Mr. MAXWELL said, without the return for which his Hon. Friend had moved, it would be quite impossible to es' certain the number of Roman Catholics and Protestants et' tending each school. Mr. S. RICE saw no objection to the return. He sheu la d most sincerely rejoice if the system of education, proposes with the best intentions should prove successful. He Wa anxious that the fullest information as to the working of ten' e system should be communicated, and was glad that the a tion of the Member for St. Andrew's had been called to the subject. He had no doubt the system would upon inquiry r. e t ; commend itself, as it had already, in some instances , to I former antagonists. The subject had been at one time ce ll ; verted into an arena for the exhibition of party an imosity, b u il t he trusted that time had gone by, and that ere long he °l i g" - take the Member for Cavan (Mr. Maxwell) to his h e art.. , s Sir R. BATE SON said his Right Hon. Friend sld;„ 1 was happy to see so many converts to this new principle. his part he was not one of them. His objections to it no"' were as strong as they were before. Mr. BARRON explained. Vele An HON. MEMBER deprecated the use of all language vi -1 1 ,0 might lead to feelings of religious animosity, and expressed approbation of the system of national education in Ireland. Mr. RUT HVEN hoped that nothing would be said or t lOll O l, to occasion acrimonious debates upon this subject.—(Cries " Question.") Mr. FlNCHsaid that the returns had been granted. sle another place, therefore there could be no additional exP enj or trouble to have them laid on the table of that House. The returns were then ordered. SLAVERY ABOLITION. Mr. GLADSTONE then moved to discharge the addrett of yesterday ( Slavery Abolition proceedings) and to subs tute another address in lieu thereof.—Agreed to. Mr. S. RICE begged to put a question to the Hen. Ge; tleman (Mr. Gladstone) which was one of some imp orte e ; and likely to create considerable interest during the Pre s '', Session ; the question related to the state of moral and he ld gious instruction in the West India colonies. When he as, the Seals of the Colonial Department a circular had b een tirit to mitted to the West India Islands, requesting information Om the state of moral and religious instruction m them. Wb ti tl ia r. left office no return had been made in answer to the cire• Now the first question he had to ask the Honourable Geuisr; man was, whether answers had been received to the cite, and the second was, whether in case they had been rece" ja or should be hereafter received, there would be any diffic ult/ laying them on the table of the House? ot the Hon. GLADSTONE said that in an answer m e& of Hon. Member for Weymouth he had stated that papers wit s nature alluded to were in the course of arrival. Th e r e L i •oas moved for by him contained some information on the re"elotl instruction of the West India Colonies. More inforl d was expected, and a tabular summary of the whole ivets certainly laid before the House. HAYLEYBURY COLLGE. Mr. HUME then moved for " An account of the _iliac; pense or charge incurred for the maintenance of the Lie Jcl at Hayleybury in 1833 and 1834, after deducting the sunned at by students, and stating the number of students educe otioe the College in each half year." The object of his ,u 3 was to have information laid before the House , es Li e t hat likely to submit to the House a measure respecting establish C. ment. Mr. FERGUSON said that the return w ould by yen long, and that its utility was extremely questionable. the Mr. PRAED said the matter was at present b a stuF Board of Control, and that it was resolved to give t he a ppo' system a fair trial. However, if the Hon. Gentieueu ri , e dbi! si site brought forward any measure on the subject he agsti—a the that it would receive the most willing consideration ° part of Government. EAST INDIA AFFAIRS. AA'tie °l Mr. HUME then moved for " An account of the annual expense or charge en the revenue of India act°tafbis curred, and to be incurred, by the enactments of the Ac poi present Majesty for the new Government at Agra, tbeotea Commissioners, and other establishments and office.. under that Bill." A int eli t e i. Mr. PRA ED said that they had only just receives- t the y genre of the establishment of the Government, ant i tbe would be some difficulty in giving the details sought f o r. o o Mr. C. FERGUSON thought the sooner the estaboo, er was abolished the better, as it only caused an unnecess pense to the East India Government. taie lti° Mr. HUME heard that despatches had' arrived crl, 0' the opinions of the Government, and that those opin 700 curred with the view he had taken of the subject l est Gove r s Mr. PRAED said the general view taken by th e n lnie a meat was not like that of the Hon. Member, but the "0 r tiro s re of some of the authorities were certainly the salum o t P er ; expressed by the Hon. Member last year. He w as lett e pared to say that there was any objection to laying the s ber ti 4 received on the table of that House. They would be woe laid before the House of Lords, and afterwards tberese. t not be any difficulty in placing them before that guellsoollu Mr. HUME then moved fer certain returns of th erm:4 ,oV of capital of the Poplar Fund of the East Indiew, ' t he (1 - 1 , also an estimate of the expense to be incurred the India Company, and by the British Government, 1° plomatic mission to Persia.--Ordered. s° „ . ° CUSTOMS, EXCISE, STAMPS, AND ac c ount t he On the motion of Sir T. FREMANTLE, an s lo ordered of the total produce of the Duties of Coto? , ' t ett t he years ended sth January 1833, and sth January 18 % _ s in of January 1835, respectively ; showing the variatioine amount thereof which were calculated to be made s nrice_ I the last three years by a lt era ti on in the rates of ciutvo paring the actual produce with such variations; also ' to of the Revenues of Excise, Stamps, and Taxes. etuft'stlP On the motion of an HON. printed,MEMß the gao l r February were ordered to be . AO' On the motion of Mr. BROFIIERTON3 the House at twelve o'clock. f BIRTHS. , the On the 6th i ns t., a t Wi gan th or p e Park, Yorkshire, William Garforth, Esq., of a daughter. so 11 0 e MARRIED. . All p 4.• On the 9th i ns t., a t Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Christ% i l iela , Esq., Cha r lott e - square , t o A nne , daughter of J °ll° High Claremont-place, near Newcastle. . Pt' On the 9th inst., in Little ow ir-street, in his 82d year. D T I E , D. wool garrioll'oei, ~„ rlotte , On the 10th inst., at Woolwich, Frances Charlotte 17• Pr', second daughter of Captain Romer, Royal ArtillerY, 7,,ife ' l . _ On the 6th inst., at the Grove, Hackney, El iza, .. 6 110 " John W. Scott, of the Stock Exchange. o f Wi lli°- . :- - - On the 11th inst., at Homerton, William, son - _____>.---( 4 Esq., in his 31st year. °f - 6. = aeR• • •••••JAMPOOMT, ___...., lIN 6 ; co osti London : Printed and Published by mtnw o YL ;, in tb 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, No. 11% Straw of Middlesex. Pa: taji her rep, lYir Pine !Ir e, 14 0 then , a,AI Cori late No e , With "'al , 'kelt; 86141 ; , a she the k store Ito G ~] 4 sa4l dit ll o tv e • 4ll 411