The Sun. — London, England, 1835-04-02 00:00:00

b p used si , ch a m easure as the one now brought forward. But if he pions select persons who differed most from each other in their opi. t he r esPecting the appropriation of Church property, he should name warar'°h!. Gentlemen opposite The Noble Lord had, in bringing for. ch urch ' , Proposition, confined his intentions to the mere surplus of and effie after amply and sufficiently providing for the wants th at _ c ' e nrY Of the Protestant establishment, and had proposed to apply lowed by to the general purposes of education, but he had been fol. r ' t by the Ri g h t Hon. Member for Staffordshire, and the Hon. and :lined Me m b er for the Tower Hamlets, who had expressed Irhie'is,el!es as totally opposed to the Established Church in Ireland, they f t heY had described as a nuisance to be abolished. Could atreeroget, as they had been told, that the late Government had of that 11 the appropriation of Church property, and yet a member Government now told them that no part of it was . to be gP"ed to other than ecclesiastical purposes, until the claims of the wrot!stant Church had been fully satisfied, and then that surplus is sti ‘t t h n e applied to none but the purpose of education? Let . them s iitiepesetoi ' c i o v , hear so much of unanimity. But this question did not on such insignificant circumstances. The main and only eco esi n ;:ras, whether Church property was available to other than do ef a .' s "'el purposes. They were told that the mere appropr . ia- I rei.... a limited part of that property would pacify and satisfy b e li eve But Would any man w h o k new t h e state o f t h at country i t that if the amount of that property were diminished, sa i i st u 'l require th e l ess exert i on to co ll ect t i thes ? S o far from e catia n o g the Government to collect the tithes in that country, it tteolitteez i i d 7 le g a i n s d e s :ise to which, , if not conceded, exctations o farther concessions, and would but increase dis ar and agitati on. Thi s appropr i at i on was, as h e conce i ve d , :j to moral d u t y , i n direct variance with its original pur- V l e a angerous to the State, and hazardous to the welfare and sta of the Protestant Church in that country. ttt ew i FOWELL BUXTON should not have trespassed on the Whi ch ", of the H ouse if it were no t f or an amen d ment thou r h t '? had to propose.—(Hear e hear.) He should have ses e 4 i ,it unnecessary to advert to observations which fell from those". with on the other side of the House, attributing to ti ves, `Yith whom he coincided as being actuated by unworthy mo rit were not for some remarks which fell from the Hon. taa roe for Newark with respect to the state of education, and the of_,nutena.nce of the Established Church hi Ireland. The spread ..1! s cation and the maintenance of the Established Church, were, ktut'coopinion, very . different things, and involved vast and impor- Wh at asequences in their separate adjustment.—( Hear, hear. R oti _ ,were the questions which were brought before the e l , 1. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had distinctly told ith at tr 13 e what Ireland and its distractions have been, and prr,lss distractions may be.' Again they have told us tht the t es irarit Church is at stake, and if you carry this motion Pre treat ' l sm w;11 be abandoned in the south of Ireland. With such to ss a • ud imPortant considerations, he could not consistently listen 14o:tyres attributing to him a desire to unseat the present Admi k,o, on the party quibbles which were said to actuate some 101.7i sT s ) jeinbers. The re was no one w h o f e lt more th en h e did f or oi. "le Lord w h o h a d spo k en on th e o th er s id e o f th e H ouse , to hr r w e , as no one who ought to feel more deeply indebted br oug h t ni having formed part of that Administration which Other forward and carried a question which he thought no r l ‘ lit listi7 would have done. It was a questien . beyond such t e' io us t , i t der ation that could induce him to offer his opinion in opposi sq, c s i : ' the Noble Lord. It appeared to him that the question re itself into three distinct principles. First, was there a ii4:ldl,,fuod belonging to the Church beyond what its claims re- Secondly, was there also a surplus fund beyond the I tssities o f the Irish Church, should that Church much in ? e• • d iY, having made a provision as it was, having made a pro as it mi g h t be, was there any excess still remaining ? fu T l beli eved there would still be a surplus. He did not state into any n i ce ca l cu l a ti ons on a com p ar i s o n o f th e e 4 of th e Ch urches in England and Ireland; yet he was con -11',"(1 the endowments of the Church of Ireland were greater t_hese of England. It was an important mistake to say that a La gathered w e i g ht o r influence by its wealth or possessions. • --"'"•) If splendid aggrandizements and enormous endow thos could h ave rendered it effectual in converting the people, t 5 .2w01 . : 1 (1 not have a single Catholic in the country. They had had p e 7s ,tr th, they . had had Protestant ascendancy, and they had the ex ses.thent, esey had seen how it had failed. He should like to tie r iZ e e xperim L ent tied by a body of men, who if they entered the to i s t .r Y, did so, not foe wealth and honours, but from no other slees but that of doing good, and then he should anticipate a lis t fte , s at result. He did not think it was in human nature to ye livZe influence of men, who, showing the utmost self-denial, tfiQ ot ti private re ti r ement, and who show by their conduct and (Ch u deportment the visible influence of their divine embassy.— s e - ' 11, ) But then it w said your example in Ireland would be Stnieedent for E land as Be it so.—(Cheers.) He desired beisi n g more th an to see this principle of the surplus funds So Wren from the Clergy for the education of the people. —(1 - 1•1r.) to th. " from bein g a n enemy to the Church, or sacrificing anything tholV r eiudices of those who were opposed to it, he should think, es;" was confi ed in his impression by what fell from the r for Newark, that he was promoting its best interests. th e rtlght there would be found to be a surplus of revenue in the :" 41 Churh. The Hon. Gentleman who soke lat night of te n4 4 . -t , e ii h s , a b n is d a hop of ireax. Armagh, told them he was not e worth s more than t t . 4 'Jos -. MEMBER-Fourteen thousand. Ism!' Fr 33UXTON in continuation—Well, then, fourteen thou fle I think from that, and even from ten thousand, a iho e, ' h e ' reduction could take place.— (Hear.) Let it be whe re the clergy were non-resident and wealthy, lee° lid irte, e smes should be cut down. He came next to the he ho,is eies e. e. Would the ChUrch, supposing it to increase, as hue s? (1 0 - ,b ‘ ' . it would, be amply provided for out of the reve ,4,, e m it ujh t the Protestant Church in Ireland would in ec c Catholic Church always had an unfair advan til e i• that f is : e i • t,ff , persecuted religion. There was something in ( a t ': b l einCsuhject to pains and penalties for the profession ' l l4 I ' l 'l it ular fora' of belief that made one adhere to its doc *4 diva should be recollected that bribery, though the time P,„_rr, was one of the means taken to propagate the ; 5 4 ' tr l tal it religion in Ireland--the . bribery which offered he estate of the father, provided he conformed to the tiiktded t ith. He honoured the Protestant religion,. but . he pro testant ascendancy. There was a broad . distinction ___-religious establishment and a political faction.— , Viten the Protestant religion condescended to appeal to 41; 4. • s ‘ d basest passions of their nature, no wonder that the the c e s of its • e friends could not be realized. No wonder that tlie nt - atholi e so turned a deaf ear to a religion which was tendered to th e b y ths • - ee who bore the Scriptures in one hand and the sword !si t . . oth er. In the south of Ireland, he did not think the Catholic t p~ Wa3 any longer a persecuted faith—it was nearer approach :is thtowillraphant one.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) i `ritth, -t Wit whe the people became acquainted with the divine the R n eformed Religion, and when they saw the solid heli ep a hot Is of the Church they would embrace them. He did not t tht re wasin existence a more apostolic, a purer, or a more s 'e '" - s r f , e t t l set of men then those who now formed the ministry of ishsel Church in Ireland.—(Loud cheers from the MI • mai os ) He would do justice to those good men despite fi . 1 4(1 *rt fro . ; the opposite side of the House. On these facts • " hop n the loss of persecution which the Catholic • E t c' lis - tained and on the increased spirituality of the Church We'atig i_• He believed the Church would increase ; at all illat the h.o would give it a fair trial. It was agreed on all hands b sto p inefulne ss of the clergy should be extended. Why should cgl:; 14 there, and why should it be supposed that the Churchof being once inefficient in Ireland would always remain so? t• 4 lir play—relieve it of the disastrous advantages which it. is 'mess, arid he believed honestly that i the established religion •, I.l.° Pti• 91 Irish. So convinced was he that t would, that t when the he le would arrive, he should propose a resolution e make a ila,s t st D r ,c• vision for that increase.—( Hear. ) This, he understood, th at convenient time to make such a resolution, but he hoped, h - mat at time would arrive, the Noble Lord would tell him v, • , e ed in such ' a proposition.—( Hear, hear.) I , l4 l s io ° l ll hc id no 'co w ne c n o rr me to the last point—supposing there would be a i its Send the provision for the Church, how were they to ap -N1 must that he had been greatly gratified by one that 415141 ' "y, h t no s h , ss r „, • ze—namel i y, t a Irish Gentleman had risen to claim ti' o l t s s " us for the rish landlords. He should have felt it his 1, e Pore such a proposition, as it would have been a dese l cra ct lurch property to sec purposes, ove al , )1 4 i 1 1 ,"‘I • 'lrrit .i sg peace to Ireland.-( Hear, from the Irish benches. ) Ott/ w • ss nappy to say, had not been proposed, and yet p the y: t Y 14 ) 4 • 'entleman o site had objected to the Church ro 'ere I a l 1 . 1 shied to any but Ecclesiastical purposes. But Ido not that he objects to application of surplus (if any) to the te' t hi oft he people through the medium of the Church. 004 give him (Mr. F. Buxton) more pleasure or satis t-',Zttt . such a proceeding.—(Ministerial cheers.) He tq ,,4 4 , l "!'at so oh a measure would be a remedy and compensation yt t t , for. the series of persecutions whieh d tha cou rr n o ry had thQ rte` k Ni t ? but t.l le thing was impossible.—(Lou cheerisn so O ,n, • ) The Church in Ireland presented itself d odious Irish-" h. id been so connected with Protestant ascen ancy— W ‘ Y A injuries and insults was so fresh in the minds of the sf l itel l t hat they would not even receive truths from that tame 7, 0 a ) Teaching the people through the medium `-'no cein was, therefore, saying that they would not be al I.—+,(Cheers.) He now came to the resolution of the 'orii and he regretted deeply that he had been . induce , d o I° 4 tte • 41 Inhis resolut „ ion the words " moral and religious, and " genera). The difference_ might appear to some little k Pla t : St was great. He thoi.ight • they were bound to hew the tthre f England that if they alienated the Church property they_ e „ , fo t 'ad to apply , it to moral and religious instruction. H . e • hoped the Noble Lord would not object to the re-insertion k - k o s ; store s , an d if they were introduced he should entirely s,,,sti a the motion of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) What ti, had they heard of Ireland last night ? The Right Hon. s s , , ant Member for Launceston had asked them to name any pe 'N;, eke their own time-. to go back even to the da of Henry i rthe 4,;• dhe would show them that the system pursued in Ireland j e S'ts, es o* a system of war, bloodshed, and rapine.—( Cheers. ) He • , 'hat the only way' to snake the people of Ireland good sub 'as to make them good Protestants, and that he believed &sr 'lily be effected by a general system of moral and religious ; t ioa. He meant not to hurt the feelings of any Hon. Mem !: op ant it vr.ts evident that there was error somewhere, either on 1 , 4( e side or the other, and the only way to banish error and truth- e wes to give the people a moral and religious education s ol d, in his opinion, be applying the surplus revenues to the best sh, gl en--to make Protestants of the Catholics. It was the only way, • ,e Present state o f I re l an d , o f remov i ng th e re li g i ous an imosity a existed there, and which had been the bane of that country li 7l hich had pro d uce d grea t ev il s , b u t n one greater or deeper than , of standing in the way of propagating the religion of the i t i - .. - ,lCheers, and loud cries for Mr. Shaw. ) • nibn• TWISS, however, proceeded. He said almost every s who had et spoken, had laid great stress upon the vast o ,t i lee of the Y question then before the House. If the Mem sh 'Quid admit that the question involved the existence, not only t Ir ish, but of the English Church, then it was of the utmost im tt t o - „ ee ,,* But considering it only as to the chance of a small surplus s - .uered it as one of the most trifling of any that had been es 4 t e , --a t session. The only argument that had been used in the as til , W as the old one of the hardship imposed upon the Catholic e 4 by the payment of tithes. But the proposition before . % • would not relieve him from any part of that herds '1 e r r id riot believe that the Catholic peasant or the small far- t 8 'gill be induced to ply tithes as a land charge, merely because ea m all portio n o f it was to be applied for the purposes • m4 eatie is. The principal supporters of the resolution were v 'ho 1, ant session had Opposed that of the Hon. Member for St. I :ls—he did not wish to pick up a single or stray expression . of a l et — ,, ; ° ' l . Met g i ber, but when he saw a series of members going (ha ) übreally op posed to their recorded opinions upon so important a niust say that it bore ail the . appearance of faction. The s ,• • member then compared the opinions of Lord John Russell as ; ,clued upon Afr. Ward's motion, and those he expressed on open th e debate, and contended that as there was now no ' e i nformation before the House than they were possessed of, I 411 nd rytrbi ,l; Lill - of course the argument was as strong now as then. tl Althorp, after stating his plans_ to the House„ said, " I trust give satisfaction." Then a cheer followed,. and the °r added, " That cheer assures me of it." His Lordship " i t h t ere s„himself tat he had effectually succeeded . . But did his • aly rs, on. Friend and his colleague do their duty by this If they did, what was the standard of their demands, * inch they asked in tones of such inveterate complaint? But had ? t , ix , of NI .10° they did not do their duty; with what grace, then, could they now turn round and complain of their successors?—( Hear.) It was proposed to give the surplus revenue to educate the poor, but had he not a right to ask, though there were large livings, was it not also true that there were some very small ones, too, and if they re reduced the large ones, ought not the small ones to be augmented ?—( Hear, hear.) The Church had a right to enjoy the surplus, if there was any, but what was the total revenue now applicable to the Irish Church ? It would turn out tht there was not a larger amount allowed than the exigencies of the Irish Church required. When Lord Althorp made his statement he began.with a very remarkable expression, to the effect that on no other subject did such great misapprehension prevail as upon the revenues of the Irish Church. But the Hon. Gentlemen opposite contended that if ten bishoprics could be torn away, something else could also be spared.—( Hear.) Was that the way to look at the question ? The Hon. Member for Halifax said 100,0001. a year might be saved from the Irish Church revenue, but what would be the im mediate relief so boastfully promised? Why it was mummery to call it a question of relief, for amongst the people of Ireland it would amount to just four pence per head. It was a ridicule upon the Irish people to suppose that such a modicum could be any relief to them. What was there to justify the change in opinion of Gentlemen on the otla. side ?—( Hear, hear.) He would not again rely upon the authority of Lord Brougham, because, notwithstanding his great talents, he was not popular upon this question with the gentlemen on the other side ; but Lord Lansdowne was not open to the same objection, and he said, in his place in the House of Lords, that nothing would induce him to consent to the appropriation of any part of the revenues of the Irish Church to other purposes than those, or some analogous to them, to which they Mere now by law appropriated.—( Hear, hear.) What was the difference between the course pursued by the Government of Earl Grey and that of the present? He saw none.—(Loud cries of " Question:") The proposition of the Noble Lord meant one thing and professed another—it created circumstances in order to use them.—(Re newed cries of " Question.") He would not trespass longer upon the attention of the House, but would conclude by thanking them or the indulgence they had shewn him. Lord CLEMENTS, Mr. O'CONNELL, and several other Members then rose together. There were loud cries for Mr. O'Connell, but the Learned Gentleman gave way to Lord Clements. Lord CLEMENTS then proceeded to say it might be pre sumptuous in him, a plain country gentleman, to come forward after the House had listened to so many learned gentleman for a length of time, but if the House would grant him indulgence for five minuies,he would not trespass on their attention longer. The remarks he should have to make would only have reference to the effect this motion would have in Ireland. He considered, as had been said by the Gallant Officer opposite, that a great deal of the discontent and disturbance in Ireland might be traced to other causes besides that of religious discord. But he would say, that unless they attempted to remove that religious discord, all other endeavours to quiet Ireland would be utterly ineffectual. This measure was a sine qua non to removing religious discord. He would not pretend to deny that Honourable Gentlemen opposite had shewn that by means of certain laws that had lately passed, a great portion of the surplus had been frittered away.—( Hear, hear.) He la mented it, but 'whose fault was it? There were two complaints against the Protestant establishment in Ireland; one was, that the revenues of the Church were excessive in proportion to the duties that were to be performed, and that thereby its efficiency was di minished ; the other was, that it did not afford that spiritual instruc tion to the majority of the people, or to the poorer ranks of society that was necessary ; and there were many who, thoughthey admitted there was ground for the first complaint, yet they stated that the Irish population were so anxious to get rid of the Church alto gether, that they were determined to resist all reduction in the revenues of the Establishment. (" Hear, hear," from Lord Stanley.) He admitted the Catholics of Ireland were anxious to get rid of the Established Church.—( Ministerial cheers.) It was no secret; but the Protestant Establishment had two objects in view : one was, instruction in religion and moral duty, and the other was entirely a political object, and one which he should always condemn.—( Hear, hear.) What he advo cated was equality, and if he were a Catholic he would never sub mit to any thing but equality.—(Hear, hear.) The Roman Ca tholic Religion was established in Ireland as much as any religion could be, and he regretted it, for he wished to see Protestant ascendancy established, so far as the doctrines of Protestantism was concerned, as he believed they were true, and inculcated charity and peace. As it is, unless perfect religious equality was established—by which he meant a diminution of the re venues of the Protestant Church to meet the legitimate wants of the people, and the payment of the Roman Catholic Clergy by the State—no peace could be expected in Ireland. [When the Noble Lord sat down, there were loud cries of " O'Connell, O'Connell," from all parts of the House.] In the midst of the confusion occasioned by these calls, Mr. BORTH WICK rose to address the House, but such was the uproar that ensued, not a word could be heard from the Hon. Member. For five or six minutes he stood, apparently addressing the House, and making the most violent gesticulations. At every pause he made, the cries of—Question, question—divide, divide, were raised. Having obtained a partial hearing, we understood him to say that it was his intention to have given way, but as the House would not permit him even. to state that such was his de termination, he was now determined to stand upon his right, and therefore begged to move, that the resolution of the Noble Lord be read. The SPEAKER accordingly read the resolution. The SPEAKER thought that Hon. Members were pursuing a course that would neither be advantageous to themselves or the House Mr. BORTHWICK again rose amid loud cries of " Question, question," and " Divide, divide " He could assure the House that he would occupy only a few minutes of its time, reserving to himself the right, should the present matter be carried further, to explain his views and feelings upon it more in detail. He was called upon by the Noble Lord opposite to vote for a resolution that the House should go into Committee to determine whether the sur plus revenues (if there were any) of the Irish Church should or should not be devoted to the general education of the people of Ireland.—(Here the cries of " Divide, divide," and " Question, question," resounded from all parts of the House.) The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to speak amidst so much confu sion, and cries of " question," that he was inaudible for some minutes. He had the deepest respect for the deliberations of the House, and if he had used any improper or disrespectful expres sion, it was not intentional.—( Question. ) Was that the hearing which the House granted to those who appealed to its indulgence ? —(Great noise, and cries of Oh, and Question.) He had only intended to speak on the two grounds to which he had alluded, and reserved to himself the right of saying more in the Committee if the question should be referred to one.—(Here the noise and the cries of " Question," and " Divide," became tremendous, and the Hen. Member sat down. Mr. O'CONNELL--I should not trespass at this late hour of the night, but that I am unwilling to allow so important a discus sion to the interests of Ireland to be passed over without offering a few observations on the subject. I shall endeavour to be as brief as possible, and shall not allow myself to be carried away by the cheers, nor put down by the ridicule of either side of the House. I am an humble individual—(Cheers)—and, as I am, I have a duty to perform which does not fall to every Honourable Mem ber of this House.—(Hear, hear.) You have been four nights— important nights debating on a subject of deep interest to Ireland. To-morrow's post will carry the result of your deliberations what is to be done—either that there is a hope of better council and good Government to Ireland, or of deep exasperation. You ought to be aware that for 400, years Ireland has been misgoverned. Who is it that will deny me this ? I never heard any body yet hardy enough to deny so known a fact, and if there was I would shout him down, and treat the denial with contempt. The Gallant Officer did not qualify it by denying it, but by saying that it was not on the score of religion. " Religion," says he, "is not the cause of it." These are consequences of comparative inferiority. On the one hand, there was the petulant and overstriding spirit of one party, with the domination and the bigotry of another. By the end of this night's debate we shall know whether there is to be a better system established, and.whether we are to hope for a better form• of Government to be substituted. I think the value of this decla ration consists in its being an earnest pledge that better days are at hand. It is not who shall be the Ministry, but it ought to go either to a denial of justice—the hundredth thousandth denial, or it ought to be as the first proclamation that a better system was about to be given to that country. Oh, I should be disposed to trespass on the House in stating her grievances. Who is it that denies her capabilities? Who is it that denies her fertility? Who is it that deniesher abundance—or who is it that denies the endowments which nature and Nature's God hath given her. What country has so many opportunities—What country so miserable ? You have produced it. The British Government, I arraign you for this. It has been the system of Government you have adopted towards Ire land that have produced these effects which you now behold.— And why should it be so ? The people oft.ngland are protestants. The Church of the people is the Church of the State, and there is that community between the Church and the people, that they both blend. The religion of the people of Scotland is the religion of the State. There is no party feeling exists between them, because this reli gion was made subject to the requirements of the country. But I agree with the Hon. Member for Weymouth. Ido not want to make the religion of the country the religion of the State ; (Cries of " Hear, hear")—for I mean to say that there is nothing so destructive as to make the Church so rich as to be too attentive to the affairs of the State—inattentive to the wants of its dependants. Ireland does not want the religion of the people to be the religion of the State—if the Protestant be the better religion let it succeed, and if it be the better it will succeed. Nay I say more, that it ought to succeed.—(Hear, hear, hear. ) But can you, under the present system, approach the Irish peasant, and ask hire to change his faith while you address him in the garb of an oppressor.—( Cheers.) I assure the House I am passing as rapidly over the topics which are passing in my mind as rapidly as I possibly can, and I lay down the position that Ireland has been long and grievously misgoverned.—( Hear, hear.) lam ready to prove it. I can show distinctly that cue principle should be extended to the three countries, and I ask you no longer to give all the wealth, and every thing that is raised from the people, to a Church to which they do not belong, and from whose doctrines they con scientiously dissent.—(Loud cheers.) Let me here just say that I cordially concur with my Friend the Member for Wey mouth. If the Protestant religion should increase under the circumstances he has mentioned, the Members of it can fairly and honestly come into this House, and ask for an increase of its revenues. There is not one particle of anything savouring of bigotry or of exclusiveness—not one particle of any thing which calls upon you to act against Protestantism in the resolution, or in the system proposed by the Noble Lord, of which I am now the advocate. Why do you oppose the motion as Protestants and Statesmen? Do you oppose it on the ground of religion or of State policy ? Have you the ground of religious motives? For three hundred years you have used every instrument to convert the Catholics to Protestantism. No such scenes were ever witnessed in any country as were enacted in that.—(Cheers.) All the power of the State—all the emaciating cruelties of a barbarous Penal Code—were put in force to induce the Irish people to abandon their faith. You gave to the Protestant religion dignity, and state, and worldly honours, and you loaded the professors of the religion of the majority of the people with penalties and disgrace. They had despoiled their altars—they had profaned their tem ples—deprived them of their churches, and threw every ob stacle in the way of the ancient faith. Could that be done in England ? Would it be tolerated in this country ? Would any man be so mad as to think that the two millions of British Catholics would be allowed to make the Catholic religion the religion of the State ?---that they could make the people pay the tithes, and oblations and offerings to the clergy, whose services they required not ? If the attempt were made, it is not in Parliament they would then be discussing the question. It would long since have been decided elsewhere. Did not the people of England before dispute the right of a Monarch who attempted to do violence to their consciences, and sent him a fugitive and a miserable outcast from his kingdom ? The experiment hod been tried, but it had not succeeded. I will not detain the House by particular instances, but I will take the county Kerry, which it has been stated, in the year 1731, ac cording to Parliamentary returns, had a population in which the Protestants were to the Catholics as twelve to one. What is the population now ? I shall be able to chew the House, that the proportion of the Protestants to the Catholics now is as fifty-two to one.—(Hear. ), Have you succeeded there ?—( Cheers. ) Take any other part of the country, and you will find•that the re sult has been precisely similar. Sir, I would not have attempted to address the House at all if it had net been contended that as ,~ THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, APRIL 2, 1835. Protestants you were bound to defend the present system. If it had not been urged by the Noble Lord opposite that all they wanted were young active curates, possessing, above all things, " nerve." —( Cheers and laughter.) This was a very curious compliment to all the by-gone clergymen, who, it appears from this, were not very active, and possessed no " nerve."—(Renewed laughter.) You have been for 300 years at work before you fished up this " nerve," and yet no men were ever more eulogized than the Pro testant Clergy of Ireland—their merits had been most outrageously eulogized.—(Hear, and a laugh.) It had been said that they had nothing but a mere 12,0001. or 14,0001. a year, and out of this they had subscribed some 101. or 121. in beautifying a church, and had been great benefactors to it.—(Cries of " No, no !" from the Mi nisterial benches.) Well, then, they had not been benefactors of the Church.—( Laughter.) The Right Hon. the Member for the University of Cambridge has taken up the story of the Noble Lord; and has remarked upon the advantages that would accrue from having clergymen of " nerve." The Noble Lord has called my town of Cahirciveen a village—l beg he will in future call it a town.—(Hear and a laugh.) He had stated that some few years ago divine service had ceased to be performed in the Protestant. Church there. I beg to set him right. Divine service has never ceased to be performed there, and the congregation was between 60 and 70, in a population of about 70,000. According to the re turns of 1821 the congregation was 74, so that instead of an in. crease there was a diminution. When I got possession of that property there were only five houses in the town, two Protestant and three Catholics. In the year 1821, the number of houses was 87, and the inhibitants amounted to 205 ; and in the year 1831, there were 189 houses, and 21 more building, and 1,195 inhabi tants; so that in ten years the inhabitants increased from 205 to 1,195, but the number of Protestants had not increased in the same ratio as the population has. But would the clergymen say he had made a single convert since he had been there ? He could not. But I will tell him that one of the heads of a family tnere, who was at that time a Protestant, is at the present time a Catholic, and the clerk to the curate died a Catholic. Such is the history of the way in which you make Protestants. It was true there are more Protestants in the town now than formerly, but it was owing to a relation of his own, a cousin-german, goin g with ten children, all Protestants, to live there.—( Laughter.) This is certainly a young man of nerve.—(Laughter.) He has a ' rectory at Dingle, to which he goes twice a year at shearing time, but the flock never sees him at any other time.—(Laughter. ) He also collects the rents of Sir William Blennerhasset, and the tithes of the clergy, and he is the most busy magistrate in all Kerry ; but he believed he was at present feathering his family on the Continent. This is the way in which you multiply Protes tants.—(Laughter.) It may serve for a moment's sport, but in sober sadness, how does it operate upon the people of Ireland ? I have received a letter respecting a place of which Mr. Man ners is the rector, where there are 4,011 Catholics, and only three Protestants, the income being 1,500/. a year.—( Hear, hear. ) I have this upon the authority of the Rev. Mr. Young, the parish Priest.—(Cries of " Oh" from the Ministerial side, and " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) He enumerated every one of them, and wrote to me saying that there could not be a better man living than Mr. Manners. He never sent the military or the police to enforce the payment of tithes.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") But the composition has not been paid him for two years— (Cheers and laughter)—though the gentleman was so well liked, the system is so unpopular that he was not paid one shilling. How are you to mend this ?—( Cheers.) I hope it will be admitted that the Hon. Member for Weymouth was as good a Protestant as any in the House, yet he entirely agrees with my principle—he says that it is vain to suppose that the Irish people were to be Protestanized by the means now taken ; that the people of that country are to be made Christians by the bayonets of policemen or the muskets of the sol diery. The Right Hon. and Gallant Secretary for Ireland, and no man would suspect him of attempting to misrepresent his inten tions—but what signify those intentions when he is surrounded by the Protestant ascendancy party who have religion on their tongues, while their hearts are filled with hate ?—( Groans from the Minis terialists, and cheers from the Opposition.) The History of Ire- , land proves my position, and now is the time for the administration to consider whether they are to take up and be nursed by that party, or if the pcior of Ireland are to have their case at all taken into consi deration. Something must be done for Ireland—the Gallant Ge neral, the Secretary for Ireland, has told you that tithes cannot be collected under tho old form, and he calls upon you —upon the people of England—to pay one million, one more million—the people of England are to pay this whole million for the power of misgoverning Ireland.—( Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Ex chequer would not give up the million if he had the slightest chance—the slightest hope of ever recovering it. We have heard much of law—let us try now—will any one Member in the House tell me that the money is not due? Then why is it not called up? The Gallant Officer has told you the reason you could not by any means in your power get it. Though the people of Ireland have not, like their brethren of Scotland, turned out upon the hills with their keen swords by their sides, yet it is confessed by the Govern ment that the feeling is so strong in that country, that it is impossible that the million can ever be recovered.—(Hear. ) I hope the Member for Londonderry is withi n h ear i ng. H a d t h e House heard of the determination come to in that country since the landlords had taken upon themselves the payment of tithe ? I had the fact from an authority so high, that if .I named him, and I should not for a moment hesitate to do so in private, there is not a Gentleman on the other side who would not admit that my authority is incapable of deceiving me. Thus we have the North equally with the South forming in a resistance to tithe. But what will be the consequence in the South ? I implore Hon. Gentlemen whether they are satisfied that they can make Protes tants by this system, or whether they are satisfied that they should not make Protestants by such a system, to pause before they come to a vote between the hopes of the people of Ireland, and the en deavour to suffocate those hopes by the plan of turning the land lords into tithe agents.=(Loud and continued cheering.) It will only make the case infinitely worse, and the Whiteboyism which assailed tithes before, would now assail rent as well as tithes with equal eagerness and desperation.—(Hear, hear.) Is this system to continue? The Noble Lord (the Member for Devon shire) holds out hopes, which were well re-echoed by the Noble Lord, the Member for Northumberland (Howick.) I wish the Noble Lord, the Member for Lancashire (Stanley) would join both of those Noble Lords--(Hear, hear)—and why should he not ? (Loud cheers and laughter.) He had voted for the 147th clause, and if he has changed, why should he not change back again—( Cheers. ) Is perpetual service to be placed in the way of improvement ? We are told that the surplus is small. Yes, but the principle is great—(Loud cheering.) It should be worked out thus—that as Protestantism diminishes it ought to diminish, and if it increases it (the means of the Church we suppose) ought to increase. The Hon. Member for Weymouth said that as Protestantism increased, the revenues ought to increase, and the very moment he said so the reverse of the proposition occurred to me—(Hear, hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side are afraid of a Catholic ascendancy. This is not a period to be afraid of the establishment of any ascendancy. The time of ascendancies is gone, except in England. This is the only country where the clergymen of all classes, when they differ from the religion of the State, are not paid equally by the State. Go to America, will you find it there ?—( Cheers.) In every State of Europe we are become a laughing-stock, and an object of contempt. Talk of the Catholic ascendancy in Ireland ! Why the Catholics of Ireland were three times in power since the rebellion, and they never persecuted the Protestants. In the reign of Queen Mary, while she was desolating England by persecution, and persons on scaffolds and stakes were burned in London and Bristol, what was the conduct of the Catholic Corporation of Dublin? Did they persecute ? Look at Harris's History of that period, as inimical a writer as ever wrote against the Catholic religion, and there you find that the Catholic Corporation of Dublin, oh, how unlike its successor !--(hear, hear, and laughter)—actually opened 70 dwelling houses for the English Protestants flying from Bristol, with their families, from the persecution of Catholic Mary, and kept them in security, and nurtured them all free of expense for a year and a half, until death relieved the country from the persecution of that unfortunate Queen. 7-( Cheers.) You taunt some Hon. Members for introducing the state of Belgium. Are you aware that is a Catholic Parliament, that is, there is no ex clusion of Protestants from the House of Commons, and that the Catholic clergy are as eligible for a seat in the House ; and, upon a late occasion when it was proposed to make a grant to a Protestant clergyman in Brussels for the benefit of the English there, it was put to the vote, and was carried by an overwhelming majority, three of the Catholic Clergy having voted for the grant, and only one being found bigotted enough to oppose it—( Hear)—while all over the world the symptoms of charity and benevolence exist. It is only in Ire land that you foster discord.—(Hear, hear.) You come into office, you place their henchmen at the head of the State—you cram the Privy Council with them—(Cheers) —and they, through respect to you, carry on the Government amidst blood and burning.— (Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the House), reiterated by cheers from the Opposition.) Yes ; blood !—( Cheers. ) But what does the Parliament propose now to do ? Will they rally round the people of Ireland ? Will they throw the shield of their protection over her? The remedies that should be applied to the case of Ireland were well described by Johnson years ago. Bos well, in his life of Johnson, is said to have burst forth and asked— " Pray Mr. Dilly"—(Loud laughter.) He (Mr. O'C.) wished that the modern Dilly's would act in the same manner.—(Conti nued laughter.) Mr. O'C. then proceeded to read the passage, the substance of which was that ,in Ireland the majority had long been under the sway of the minority, and that there was no instance in the ten persecutions to equal the oppressions which were inflicted by the Protestants upon the Catholics of Ireland, If they were sold as they were con quered it would be fair, but you cannot sell them, nor can you conquer them. Therefore the best thing you can do, is to do the country justice.—( Cheers. ) It may be said that I am disposed to advocate a Repeal of the Union. I am, but how do you propose to reconcile me to a contrary course ? Is it by refusing to do justice to Ireland. We have heard a great deal of cant about good intentions towards Ireland, and on this motion they had seen the rats scuttling across the room—they had every thing but fair declara tions on the subject of this great question. My opinion is in favor of i Repeal of the Union. I am ready to give up that question f justice is done to Ireland. I am told that this Parliament will do as much justice to Ireland as that country might expect_from an Irish Par liament. Don't tell us that such are your intentions, but shew us some practical proofs of your sincerity. The Right Hon. Bart. (Sir. J. Graham) has quoted a speech of mine that was hastily delivered. My opinions, I' admit, are strong, and sometimes car ried to an extreme ; but do I not know, and does not every Hon. Gentleman know, that no good Government was ever yet formed except on a compromise of opposite opinions, and a recon ciliation of extremes. Robespierre and Marat, with a guillotine at their backs, succeeded, after all, only in establishing a more iron despotism than what they desired to abolish.—( Hear. ) Ireland is ready, and I am ready, to enter into a compromise. She is now in the throes of agony at the exhibition of the Orange flag, and would unwillingly, if the Government combined with her, enter into that compromise. You tell her to wait awhile, but if she does wait awhile she may rise in the wild pangs of revenge, and reek her vengeance upon the most innocent. That, Sir, is the state of Ireland. There never was a period so well adapted as the present to do good to Ireland. All we require is justice, and we call upon the House to show that it is disposed to do so. I called upon the House in the last Session to do justice to Ireland—it re sponded to my call, and passed the Tithe Bill ! Our Church re mains unpolluted by the mammon of unrightcousness. It is not less efficacious for its purposes. The voluntary principle has an swered everypurpose for us; we therefore call upon you to adopt this motion, which, if you are sincere Protestants, you ought to adopt; for it is a motion to adapt the surplus revenue of the Church to education. You say the Papists are ignorant—give us the money to instruct us, and you put us upon the road to learning. Give us this motion, and let religion have fair play ; refuse it, and you send a proclamation to Ireland that will fill the country with horror and di s may.—( Great cheering. ) Sir ROBERT PEEL rose amidst much cheering, and addressed the House as follows :—Sir, It. is because I take very much the same view of the construction which is to be put upon the intention an I effect of this motion—it is because I believe it will be considered in Ireland as a proclamation—it is because I believe fallacious hopes will be excited in the hearts of the Roman Catholics, and fear inspired in the breasts of the Protestants, unless you act with circumspection --it is because I feel these things that I am induced to overcome the disinclination which every man, whatever may be his experience in addressing public assemblies, must feel when every argument has already been used and enforced with great ability ; and nothing but a sense of duty in the situation I fill would now induce me to make an appeal to the attention of the llcuse.—(At such a time as the present, when Ire land is convulsed, we are called upon to decide great question, and to determine what steps shalt be taken re specting it.. We aee called upon to decide upon a right which had almost lec nue obsolete ; but it is also time for Parliament to as sert its r.ghts, which, if suffered longer to remain in desuetude, may run the danger of being lost alt.Jgether.—( Hear, hear, hear.) S.) deeply impressed am I with 'the importance of this subject the I will pass over a great part of the discussion which has takkn place. I will pass over all personal allusions, all criinina tions and recriminations.—(Hear, hear:) I have little confidence in my own infallibility, and I have no inclination to divert the at tention of the House from the important question before it to I answer any gratification or purpose of my own. In deciding ' this great question there are four courses open to you, and only four. They might a Ihere to the existing law, which was to confine Church property to its present destination. As your first course you may gay that this property is excessive— you may discourage all false expectations ; but this I say is all the amount you may take from us.. The second position you may take cup is that all that shall remain in our own possession ; and the third tourse is this—that we have no ?reference for one religion over ane ther. We will do justice, but we will destroy the predominance of the Established religion. This is the third course ; but there is yet another—there is a fourth course—a course weare about to decide—the appointment of its pecuniary interests, and to those tithes to be scrambled for by an unhappy people. I ask nothing with respect to the public service. I lay down no principle on which it can be defined, but call in an uncertainty to take the untenable position of applying an imaginary right--and for what, but to an unprofitable surplus ?—( Cheers. ) You may do more if we can do more, but you may do less. You may bring your arguments in support of the three courses you have laid down, which tend to the destruction of the Protestant Establishment ; but you may shrink from your own principles, and then invite us to take up your own positions, for your own arguments are untenable.— (Cheers.) I would not only not determine the amount of excep tion, but I will not indicate to you how that test shall be decided. I will leave that to any Government or any man ; 'all that I say is, that if there be a surplus, I will place it to something.—(Cheers. ) If there be more Protestants, the Protestants shall have more. I will give you opportunities of preventing the increase of that dominion which your enemies have endeavoured to exert over you ; but if there should be more Roman Ca tholics, I will give it to those by whom our funds and emoluments have been increased. We wish to have every infor mation, and to ascertain all the bearings of the Church on this estate. But you will not wait until the report of )our own Com mission even is completed, or until you can arrange the principles of your own enactments. You thought it convenient to oppose the first measure introduced by Government, and in order to advance .your abstract theory. But this resolution is full of practical details, and in its results will reach the remotest parish in Ireland. You chose to submit to those, and I appeal in proof of the assertion to the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman which you have just heard, to those who wish for the destruction of the establishment. Sir, I am prepared to adopt one of the plans to which I have referred. lam prepared to assert the right of the existing law. All I ask is to be permitted calmly to state to the House the grounds on which I come to this decision. Sir, there are other parties equally anxious ,for the result of our debate • and who look with equal eagerness for our decision as the datholics—l mean the Protestants of Ireland. I do not assert that if you chose to come to the resolution and decide in opposition to what I conceive to be the public in terests—if you wish to violate what is established by long prescrip tion—and if you desire to interfere with established law, I do not mean to deny the absolute and abstract right of the Legislature to act upon its views. But I assert that you ought to be convinced by argument before you come to that conclusion. There are the great measures affecting the condition of the Protestants of Ireland, and of the Catholics also.—(Hear, hear.) There was first the measure of the Union, differing from a law in this respect, that it carried with it the force of a national com pact, and contained within the conditions on which a Legislature resigned its rights. The Catholics were not, adverse to it.—( Cries of "Oh ! Oh !" from the Irish Members.) The Protestants were not opposed to it, and in the compact it was expressly pro vided that the rights and privileges of the United Chambers of England and Ireland should continue the same. The Hon. Mem ber for St. Albans attempted to shew by resolutions, and extract from the speeches of Mr. Pitt, that some right was reserved to the Church in the Act of Union with respect to civil disabilities ; but I contend that there was no right reserved to deal with the property of the Church. The Protestant reads these words in the Act of Union, and if their meaning is to be determined by a plain reference to the ordinary sense of these words, can there be a doubt what their intent is ? The Act provides, " that the maintenance and preservation of the Established Church, as the United Church of England and Ireland, shall be deemed, and taken to be an essential and fundamental part of the Union." There is a previous stipu lation that the doctrine, disc:; line, and government of that Church shall be maintained.--( Hear, hear, hear.) Parliament did not let it rest there—it stipulated as a part of the compact that the maintenaece and preservation of that Church should be an essential and fundamental part of the Union. In the year 1829, the Roman Catholic disabilities were removed, and although I might say that that Act has not the force of such a compact as the Act of Union, yet I should say that it is irrevocable, and only to be revoked by some important and eventful circumstance. I con sider it irrevocable as regards theliberties of the Roman Catholics, and it ought to be irrevocable as regards the assurances given to the Government at that period.—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.) By that Act, the Government was led to believe _ that there would be entertained no intention to subvert the present Church, as established by law, within this realm.— ( Cheers.) They had been led to believe that no privileges that Act conferred would be exercised to disairo c: weaken the Protes tant religion, or Protestant Government, as by law ee:e2elished, within the realm. They had been told that the removal of the Civil Disabilities of the Roman Catholics would give new security to the Church of Ireland. They had been told that their removal would redress the injustice of which the Hon. and Learned Member complained ; but they were not aware that within five years from the passing of that Act the power which it had con ferred would be exercised to subvert that Church Establishment— (Tremendous and reiterated cheers from the Ministerialists)— so far at least as the property of the Church was concerned, and they were not aware that by consenting to the removal of those disabilities they would have been called on to remove the Church which lad conceded these privileges. You passed another Act only two years since for the Reform of the Church of Ireland—and you cut off no less than 10 of the Bishops of that Church. You determined, and in my opinion wisely, to review the state of the Church of Ireland. You said, in my opinion wisely, that ecclesiastical sinecures shall follow the same course that has been taken by those of a civil na ture—a power was indeed taken by one clause of the original Bill by which that property of the Church having no interest with the other was to be applied to secular purposes ; but by the subsequent abandonment of that particular clause, you said you would hold ecclesiastical property for ecclesiastical purposes.—( Great cheer ing.) Two years only have passed since that time, and notwith standing the Act of Union—notwithstanding the Act by which ten bishoprics were abolished—two years only have elapsed when the Hon. Member for Dublin comes forward and tells you you must issue a new proclamation for Ireland, and establish a new system of Govern ment for that country.—( Cheers, and loud cries of " No, no.") The Hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Alban's tells you, that you having done away with some of the abuses of the Church ; you have dealt with Church property, and set a p rece d en t f or th e pre sent proposition. The Hon. Member for St. Alban's, notwithstanding the caution of the Noble Lord, had plunged deep and at once into the bog, and attempted to cross it, and because that I, being waffled by the example of the Hon. Gentleman, am determined to avoid that fate—l confess I saw with considerable pain the Hon. Mem ber floundering in the middle of the bog—there he stuck ; and he had not passed beyond that point, so long as I heard him. — (Cheers.) The reason no doubt was, that he was entangled with the weight of his own arguments.—(Cheers. lf Hon. Gentle men would prepare themselves with all thenowledge collected from the time of Noah down to his own, he must expect to be left deep in the Serbonian Bog.—( Great cheering. ) What has been the whole course of the law? What was the prin ciple in respect to first fruits, and the Curate Act, except that for the benefit of the Church you had a right to redress individual abuses ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Nothing can justify the appro priation of Church property to any other than to eccle siastical purposes, and I shall not discuss any other ap aropriation of Church property.-4 Cheers from the Opposition.) Wy should I be called upon to discuss any contingency, when I am only desirous of touching upon the practical question ? I desire to avoid all superfluous discussion, and therefore I refuse to discuss hypothetical questions. The Noble Lord said the surplus was 791,000/., but I doubt if it amounts to 450,000/.—(Hear, hear. ) Now that is a &Teat difference, and would it not be premature to discuss the application of a surplus, the amount of which was not known. At one time the amount was stated to be 800,0001. It was not 791,0001., it is not more than 450,0001.-(Cheers.) I ask the House whether they will come to a resolution pledging to appropriate this sum ?—( Great Cheering.) I ask the Noble Lord again that question ?—( Hear ) I ask him whether he has made any estimate for the demands for national education ? I ask the House whether it is right to form an opinion respecting the ap plication of a surplus without some estimate? I wish the Noble Lord would answer this question. The Noble Lord assumes the revenue of the Irish Church to be 791,0001., and he proposes to apply the surplus to purposes of education. I ask again what is the estimate for the demand of education? Does any man believe that 100,000/. will be required for this purpose? I will give 200,000/. to be so applied-200,000/. a year. I entreat the House, if they arc anxious in the cause of education, before they determine to overload education with superfluous wealth, to require some esti mate as to the application of this money. But, supposing this de mand to be 200,000/., which is the mo=t that by possibility can be applied to education, still it will leave the Chut oh of Ireland in possession of 591,000/. The resolution itself, allowing 200,000/. for the purposes of education, does not consider the remaining 591,000/. too large an endowment for the, Church.—( Great cheering.) I assert that the Irish Church have not more than 450,0e0/. I want an answer to this argument.—(Cheers.) There is this im portant difference between us. I have shown that even if the Noble Lord (Russell) is correct is his statement, and if 200,000/. is required for education, and the resolution is limited to this, still it will leave the Irish Church in possession of the surplus.— (Cries of Hear, hear.") I have shown that it will have the Irish Church in possession of 591,0001., but I assert that the Church has not at the present moment more than 450,000/. ( Great cheering.) Upon what principle could the House legislate respecting an appropriation ?—( Great cheering.) I do not ask you to decide the question to-night. I only ask you not to allow the Noble Lord to go into Committee for the purpose of involving ourselves in these errors.—(Cheers.) This is a matter of too much importence to be trifled with.—( Hear.) Have we not a right to insist upon the Noble Lord (Russell) produ ciug some practical plan if it were only to prevent extravagant hopes and discontent. This resolution will not give satisfaction to the people of this •ountry, to the people of Ireland, to the Protes tents of Ireland, aye or to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, if you undertake in this stage of the business, without waiting for the re port, to which I do not attach much value, if you undertake to pledge the House to a resolution which is unnecessary for the purpose of effecting its object. You say—and you say with truth— that the Irish Church has not hitherto succeeded in attaining the _ . great object for which it was instituted. I wish to -discuss that point. I know there can be no advantage in concealing what constitutes the real stress of the argument opposed to me. You say the Irish Protestant Establishment has failed in obtaining the object for which it was in stituted, that there are not more than a million of Protestants, that there had been no proof of rapid conversions, that the Roman . Catholic:,, in print of number, still maintain their ascen lancY ; and that as the Protestant Establishment has failed in attaining its object, that you are at liberty to appropriate its reve nues to secular purposes —( Hear, hear.) Now I say there . have Leon causes in operation which have prevented the growth and extension -cf Protestantism, but which at this moment have ceased to exist.—(Hear, hear.) If that is the case, if those causes are no longer in operation, then, I sly, you are not justified in arguing on the existence of that Wlii‘th is past, and in awrop:iating a strp:us which might not be ne es',.ary if the past were to endure ; but because the past is not to endure, therefore it is necessary, for the spirituel wants of the people, that no such appropriation should take p - a,l•e. In the first place, you have i emoved the civil disabilities—yai have Int the Protestant and Catholic on a footing of equalk. Then the main / Y ~ argument you have against the existence of those civil disabilities was this—that while those civil disabilities continue, a pre judice was sure always to be entertained against the Protestant religion—that there was an impediment of pride which you could not overcame ; but that is altogether removed, the impediment is gone, there can be no obstacle of pride to the Protestant, there is perfect equality. You state that there were abuses in the Church— that there was an inequality in the distribution of its revenues—l say those abuses have ceased to exist, and that if they continue, shall cease to exist. The time is come when these abuses must be removed. The time is come when Parliament must interfere. Another case is the surplus wealth of the Clergy of the south of Ire land—you have taken effectual measures to remove that. The wealth of the Clergy of the south of Ireland ! -Talk of the trap pings of luxury and the surplus wealth of those who have been robbed of their incomes for the last four year's ! It is possible in the inscrutable ways of Providence, the sufferings they have undergone, and the patience with ,which they have borne them—it is possible the extremity of their sufferings, and the patience with which they have endured, may conciliate parties towards them, and make their efforts in the cause of religion more effectual.—( Cheers. ) If the causes which have prevented, in some respects, Protestantism, have been removed, what right have you to depend upon the assumption of circumsthmees? You are not now going to determine whether you shall divide among the Church of Ireland a sum of 400,0001. or 500,00 a, but whether you shall apply it to other purposes. You have now 1,100 churches in Ireland—is it the intention of the Noble Lord to put that down ? What do you mean to do with the existing state of things—do you mean to encou rage the Protestant landlord to reside upon his property, and do you mean to tell him the first things that will strike his eye will be the dilapidated state of the Church which now exists ?—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I call the attention of the Honourable Mem ber for Weymouth to this part of the case. I call his attention to the last report of the Commissioners acting under the Church Temporalities Bill passed by the late Government. I en treat his attention, and that of every man who wishes well to the Church to this. —( Cries of " Oh.) Yes, yes, those who made these exclamations know that there are many who are dissatisfied with the progress of this night's debate.---( Hear, hear, hear. ) I understand that exclamation perfectly well—l know, I repeat, that many are dissatisfied with the progress which this debate has already made.—(Cheers renewed.) There are many who have not their minds made up, and who, if the debate now terminated, would not be decided on the principle of the resolution.—( Here some Hon. Gentleman exclaimed—Oh !) I am not, said the Right , Hon. Gentleman, addressing myself to you, Sir—(Loud cheers)_ I have no hope of your conforming in consequence of any rea soning you may hear. Ido not address myself to one who has taken so prominent and conspicuous a part as you—but to those who are somewhat less determined as to the course they maypumue.—( Cheers.) I shall now refer to the report made under the late Administration to which I was alluding. The first name on this report was the Archbishop of Dublin. It stated that the Church Commissioners had the satisfaction to report that applications were forced upon them for aid to build additional churches, as the accommodation in the parishes was insufficient for the congregations of persons belonging to the Established Church, and that while the Commissioners were unable to do so, the parties expressed their willingness co contribute, some one-fifth, some one half, and others three-fourths of the expense towards building the churches. The Commissioners expressed their regret that as they had no superfluous funds, there was no prospect of their applica tion being favourably entertained. I now intend to address myself to the argument of the Hon. Member far Weymouth, who was de termined to support the Protestant establishment. He thinks that the surplus revenues of the church ought to be available to pur poses of education. I, on the contrary, think that there exists a necessity now for appropriating these revenues to the existing spi ritual wants of the people--( Hear, hear, hbar. ) That Honour able Gentleman proposed to send to Ireland a number of Pro testant clergymen whose zeal would supply the deficiences now complained of by example of industry and piety, and diffuse feelings of confidence and religion through the country. I differ with him as to the policy of such a project, and if I succeed in convincing him that it would not be successful, I hope he will conform to my opi nions. The Noble Lord, as I do, condemned the interference of intemperate zeal in the furtherance of religion. The precepts of a pious clergyman would surely be increased in efficiency by the example of his domestic virtues. It is much better to allot to a clergyman sufficient to maintain himself and his family, that he may, by the exhibition of domestic peace and happiness, make a practical impression on his flock, than to trust to extraordinary vir tue or zeal to produce that effect.—( Hear, hear.) When I look to the deficient system of education in Ireland—to the means possessed by the clergy of influencing the humbler classes, I deprecate the practice of encouraging extraordinary zeal, and of leaving the clergyman in poverty in the midst of his flock. I will ask the Hon. Members opposite, when they reflect on the edu cation and acquirements which are required in a clergyman, and on the general absence of all society in Ireland which an educated man is accustomed to, what sum they consider, necessary for the maintenance of a clergyman and his family? There are 1,400 clergymen in Ireland. Would the Hon. Gentleman opposite re move 200 or 300 from that number ? There were 1,400 clergy men and 600 curates ; and after making what deduction from that number the Hon. Gentleman may think necessary, what income would they allot a clergyman ? But if they will allow that that in come-should amount to 3001., it is not too much to ask that the whole of the Irish Church revenues shall be devoted to eceleSiastical purposes. I cannot pass by the argument of the Hon. Member for Cambridge —it seems to have made a great impression on the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman's argument was this—that by the ordinary endowment of the Irish Church, there was this pecu niary charge on account of religion, that there was no injury done in applying the revenues of the Church to the purposes of educa tion. After ten days debate—after every one who had spoken had had maintained the endowments of the Church to be serviceable to secular purposes, he comes down and tells us he will solve all this. I will prove the education to be for an c,:cks.astical purpose. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) I hold in my hand a report on the principle of education, drawn up by the Hon. Gentleman opposite. It was made so late as the year 1828, and abounds in twenty-two or twenty-three resolutions. It refers to the Act of Henry Bth. There is a specific reference to that Act, but not one word is said cf education being a pecuniary charge on the Church. The Right Hon. Gentleman did not then advocate here gratuitous education. You are going to decide on this subject. I ask you to pause before givingyour decision. I utterly deny that the application of 120,0001. to the purposes of education Would do good. lam fearful it would do more harm than good. There is, as I before stated, in this report a reference to the Act of Henry VIII., it is, as I believe, the plan as adopted by the Noble Lord ; but there is not one syllable about education being chargeable on the Church. One of the resolutions continued, that it is the opinion of this Com mittee that Parliamentary aid should be restricted to the following uses in the relief of parishes, and in the erecting of parochial schools, but with this proviso, that such aid was not to exceed two thirds of the sum required.—(Hear.) The subject was not to save pecuniary charge ; it was to invite local assistance ; th s was, in his opinion, a bad principle to apply this local relief ; you do more harm than good in relieving the resident gen tlemen of that exertion, which was their duty alike with them interest to extend in cases of local demands. Observe what the object of the resolution is. It is confined to the purposes of education. 1 assert, as boldly as the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the object of the Act of Henry VIII. was to establish and confirm the ' power of the Established Church, and I maintain the inference drawn by him as to right is directly at variance with facts. The object of the Act of Henry VIII. was to confirm the power of the Protestant religion by supporting the rights of the Protestant Church. The Act recites that a knowledge of divine truths was essential to education. The Act passed after the annihilation of the power of the Pope, so far as that could be effected by law in temporal matters—many years after the statutes of premunire,_ after Henry had been de clared head of the Church, after he had been declared to possess the full right to the temporal possessions of the Church, and the first provision in the Act was one requiring the Clergyman to teach or cause to be taught a school in which the principles of the Establishment would be inculcated, by placing education under the controul of the Clergyman. I assert that the object of the Act, that the intention of the Statute of Henry the Bth was not pecuniary contribution but superinten dance. I should lilt to argue this question with the Hon. Gen tleman. He has observed that the Act required not superinten tendance, but contribution. I maintain the contrary. :l he Hon. Gentleman contends for the former view of the case, and he there fore justifies the, appropriation of Church revenues to the purposes of education. The Act requires a payment by the clergyman, of 4s. a year towards keeping a school. Is their any analogy between the clergyman to observe the obligations of the statute and the principle laid down by the Right Honourable Gentle man, that we had a right to seize on the revenues of the Church ?—(Hear, hear.) If there be no analogy his argument falls to the ground. The Right Hon. Gentleman may endeavour to show that the report of the Commissioners bears him out in his view—a Commission not appointed by me, and which consists of Mr. F. Lewis, of Mr. Leslie, of Mr. Blake, a Roman Catholic, and of Mr. Grant. All the extracts which the Right Hon. Gen tleman read to the House, tend not in confirmation of his opinions, but to establish the principles laid down in the Act of Henry the Eighth. These Commissioners avow plainly, that the Act of Henry the Eighth was not a provision for a pecuniary con tribution, but a superintendence—( Loud and continued cheer ing)—and that it did impose the latter duty.—( Renewed cheers. ) This Act, after reciting among other things the importance of good instruction in the principles of religion, proceeds after an enactment for the suppression of the Irish language, and enforcing the teach ing of the English, to direct that the Clergyman sha'l keep, or cause to be kept within the parish in which he shall possess any - .benefice or other Church preferment, a school for the cdusation of the people, and shall take care, that the same stipend be paid to the teacher as is accustomed to be paid in such place. —Hear.) Now it is clear from this that it was the duty of the clergyman fo advocate the education ofithe poor— what then became of the argument of the Right Hon. Gent., that the Act of Henry VIII. authorised the appropriation of the cccte siastical revenues to general instruction unconnected with the Church.--(Cheers.) That argument is utterly without toanda tion, and so far from slims ing thnt this Act authorised the appro priation of Church revenues, the object was to connect education with the superintendence of the Church. I beg to refer tlee Righ:h Hon. Gentleman to the Act which was introduced by myself a few years since, for the regulation of Diocesati Schools, which recognised this very principle, and which enabled the Lord-Lieutenant to establish schools in every Diocese; but had I brought in a Bill to tax the Clergymen for the support of these Diocesan schools, with what a burst of laughter would net such a proposition have been received by the other side of the House, and particularly by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, if I had attempted to show that there was any connec tion between the avowed objects of the Act of Henry the Eigth, and the appropriation of a pittance of the ecclesiastical re venues to the support of these schools. With respect to the appropriation of the surplus revenue, I believe that there could not be a more improper mode of disposing of it.—(Hear.) I bring you high authority ; the Commissioners' report showed that there was not a country in which there existed greater means of education than there did in Ireland. The Commissioners re commended that the schools should be founded upon the system of day schools, with the admission of some free scholars ; but the proposition now before you goes directly in the contrary direction ; it says that you should make gratuitous education the principle, while payment should be the exception.—(Cries of No.) You do not—that is what I complain of. You do not give any estimate of the sum you expect as a surplus. I charge you with making a mis take of 250,0001., with 'which you deceive the country. I charge you with pressing on the question—with making a surplus appear when you have no information on the subject, and even if you sanc tion the principle, to which I will never consent : but even if you sanction that principle, sanction it without due consideration, Sir, if the Noble Lord carries his motion, he will in the Committee move a certain resoluttota—the Noble. Lord is not very c'_ear as to the principle by which he is actuated. Ou the Friday, the Noble Lord announced that the surplus was to be appropriated to the mo ral and re . .igious instruction of the peole without any distinction. I say most emphatically that that implied the principle of the en dowment of the Catholic Church.—(Great cheering, and cries of —No, no.) Then why did the Noble Lord alter his resolution to the general system of education ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Of course I cannot dive into the recesses of the Noble Lord's m;nl, but all his arguments went to chew that the Church cnly scale Roman Catholics. If tl.is establishmeet be the nuisance yea ba:c described it, if the church is a charge forced upon then, and cons- -~~ yts d heo e liu r ss_ e re i s a b be y yq tsiihui resolution?rep ep p m e a o i p nn l tg e ss I; a t, s hhta a tt, b e w e d, you hlgyeie:ll,oi they hl e aer o uye n ge q cho u on e mea s i t, how can you deceive your selves thereconcile ur read preeoyspoollueur resolution—(cheers speechese(l acniideacnblsi from the Opposition)--I say they will laugh at your resolution when they find you talk of it as the settlement of the question.— ( Chee:ts from the Ministerial side.) The Member for Devon shire, in introducing this resolution, made use of these words : " I am one of those who are - anxious to maintain religion and pro mote good order, but as the friends of the United Kingdom, I call upon you to observe whether the Church can make the same de fence, and say it has maintained religion and promoted good order." 'But that Church is to be maintained !—(Hear, hear. ) I thought you were going to curtail certain establishments Like the Catholic Bill, which began with " whereas the removal of civil disabilities will tend-to promote the prosperity of the Church—this measure is to commence with " whereas the curtail ment of the Church will tend to promote the prosperity of the Church.—(Hear,) The Right Hon. Member for St. Albans said taking America, France, or Scotland, it was found in every instance the remuneration of the Clergy was always in proportion to the service performed, except in Ireland. The Hon. Member for Halifax (C. Wood) asked " where was there to be found in any country a system of Church Establishment where a rich Church with a small congregation was maintained at the expense of an overwhelming majority belonging to another Church, whose feelings were insulted; and whose property was to red for the maintenance of one Church Establishment to which they did not belong, and for the support of their own." Tho Hon. Member for Shaftesbury (Mr. Poulter) made this observation, " that no length of time nor lapse of ages would induce him to concur in a great national grievarice." I ask those who heard these expressions, who heard the arguments and the resolution—l ask them whether they imply the same? It is most important that a final settlement should be made when you are going to impose this additional charge upon the landlords of Ireland, to be received from the Roman Catholic tenants. Ido not believe that it is necessary to open the eyes of the people to the fallacy attempted to be made. They know well that the arguments of Hon. Gentle men on the other side do not correspond with their sentiments.— Would this resolution tend to the final settlement of the question, or to the ace and tranquillity of Ireland?—(Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") Why, the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin cads it the first instalment.—(Great cheering.) I have been taunted with the course. I have pursued—l have been taunted with inconsistency—but I can tell Hon. Gentlemen that there is a course still more fatal—it is that of being in the rear of one's own arguments—(Loud cheers)—to shoot an arrow and search for it in the pace where it lies. There may be an excuse for being in the rear. That doctrine, that public men are always to anticipate public opi nion--that they are always to be looking out for the first indication of public opinion, and provide against the event that might happen —that doct .:ne, I have no doubt, is very popular ; but depei d upon it, if any public man takes that course, he will unsettle the minds of the people of this country. But you do take up positions which in your hearts you feel are wrong. I see in the senile of the Honourable Member for Middlesex, he is much too shrewd to be united by this resolution,—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He may vote for the resolution, knowing the principle of it, but he will find out with me, that it is a mere pretence of applying the surplus revenue to education, and then he will bring forward his resolution of 1824, and will argue where is the use of not enforcing it? lam not looking behind now. lam now looking into the womb of futurity, and I feel as certain of what it will produce as lam of what the facts are. I feel as certain as lamof my own existence, that the Hon. Member for Middlesex is too manly to be satisfied with the principle involved in this resolution, if it be meant to be a final settlement of the question. And it is because I know this, because I know that you yourselves have rendered untenable the position which you wish to take in common with you—it is for that reason, as well as for others, for that main and predominant reason, I will not consent to appropriate this property to purposes other than Ecclesiastical connected with the Protestant Esta blishment.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But I know also that this is a delusive resolution that sends not peace, but the sword— ( Hear)—that it will excite fallacies which you will shrink from disappointing ; it is because I feel that. will the force of the other arguments against it, that I oppose this reslution. I give the N able Lord fair notice of the course I intend to pursue, I mean to oppose his motion for a committee ; and should he succeed in getting a Committee, I mean to oppose the Noble Lord's resolution, and lastly, it is my intention to oppose with all my strength the communication of his resolution to the Crown— (cheers from the Ministerial side)—because it is unprecedented and novel, and the course it proposes unnecessary for the purposes it professes to accomplish. The intention of it was to indicate evidently to the country that they would pass by the House of Lords. If that was the course meant to be adopted, it should have been taken honestly, but it was a fitting course for such a resolution. Why not embody the resolution in an address, and send it to the House of Lords? Had they doubts as to this their matuee deliberate plan, which they hesitated to send to the other branch of Legislature ? They must have considered the course worthy of the resolution—(cheers)—when they seek such an un fair and dishonest pretence for passing by the House of Lords. The King will relinquish certain rights by the passing of this Bill, and in doing so he must signify his assent to that measure by thrt modest kind of intimation weigh his Ministers always com municate. Was the course then respectful to his Majesty, or fair or honest to the country ? I trust that the House will never con sent to adopt that principle, bui if it should, by whom shall the Re solution be presented ? If the Hon. Member for Middlesee will allow me I will suggest three Hon. Members, the Noble Lord who has proposod the Resolution, the Hon. Member fir Middlesex, and the Hon. Member for Dublin. Will the Noble Lord thank me for the felicity of the suggestion, an Englishman, an Irishman, and a Scotehman.—(Cheers.) it is not for me to anticipate what the answer will be, if it were possible to suggest it I think the Noble Lord would spare me the pain and necessity of stating it. Now with respect to the Noble Lord, and his qualifications to present the Address, he advised the Commission of last year, but was not pre pared to legislate, he demanded further time for consideration; he adverted to the appropriation but was not willing to adopt the prin cipled without further inquiry, the Noble Lord who was at that time a Minister of the Crown ought not to be the party to approach the Crown. Well then, the Hon. Member for Dublin is to be a party to the communication—he is to be a party to the appropriation of the revenues of the Church, the security of which was granted by the Act of Union. Who advised the Crown to use these expressions with respect to the Act of Union. •I have seen with feelings of concern and regret that attempts have &en made in Ire land to excite the people of that country to demand the repeal of the Legislative Union, that bond of our national strength, which I _ am determined, under the blessing of Divine Providence, to main tain inviolate by all the means in my power.'—(Cheers.) Is it fair in so unusual and unprecedented a manner to present such an ad dress to the Crown ? I will candidly tell the House, that I shall think it my duty to give to the Crown the advice to dismiss that address in its unformed and immature shape.—(Hear, hear.) But I hope that the House will pause before admitting such a proposi tion. It has the power to reject it, and I trust that it will. I, hear. tell you before hand that I will not act upon your propo ition.—( Hea r . ) I will not be a party to the act of appropriating the property of the Irish Church to any but its legitimate purposes.—( Freer, h The Hon. Gentlemen opposite differ from me on this question, but the Noble Lord :prefaced his proposition in such a manner that we can differ on some points while we agree upon others. I am ready to put the question en any footing which may snit the House. lam ready to postpone the question till after Easter. —(No, no.) But I cannot think that the House will proceed to a decision without full information on the subject, and until they have before them :the report of the Church Commission. It behoves them in a matter in which so large an amount is involved, and in which matters of such immense importance are involved, not to come to a hasty decision.—Cries of " Hear, hear.': If there was a difference of opinion on arevenue of 250,000/., it is but jus tice to the Church from which it emanates, to ascertain whe ther the serevenues you are about to appropriateaccording to/ some 540,0001., according to others, 791,000/. should be disposed of in the manner which the Noble Lord proposes. By moving one re solution in a Committee, you may have this point satisfactorily as certained; and I do, therefore ; ask you to relieve the Noble Lord and myself from a great practical evil. The Noble Lord did not give this notice himself, it was given by an Honourable Gentleman who showed more courage than discretion, and who pressed the Noble Lord into a position that he was compelled to give way. My opinion is the Noble Lord will see the policy, and that he will withdraw this most tmperfeet motion, for which he shall have my full permission, and which is likely to embarrass him so much. Let the House then concur in relieving the Noble Lord from this position, and let it not debar him from that happiness he was about to anticipate. He perfectly coincided with an expression delivered by the Ho nourable Member for Weymouth, that where there are so many differences of opinion they ought to be inquired into.—(Hear, hear.) Ido ask you, then, to desist until the report be laid on the table, wait until the result of your own commission be known. If you take my advice you will relinquish this attempt for the present, and not defeat the object of your wishes by what might be a hasty decision, nor obstruct its final settlement by this untoward proposition. You may perhaps succeed in it, and you may succeed effectually to the destruction of the Protestant Church. You may indeed succeed in showing your power here—if you suc ceed, don't act rashly—don't glory in your triumph. Let me as sume the functions of an office discharged in former times by a slave, but which may be assumed in the present crisis by a freeman without any derogation to his station. You boast of your superior streuath—you are prepared to control the Executive Government. Let me-whisper into your ear, that though you are triumphant here, you cannot fetter the views of the public. You cannot ex tend the excitement which exists within these walls out of them. Yes, in the performance of the functions which I voluntarily undertook I place before your eyes what may the consequences of your triumph. I call upon you to consider the variation in human affairs and the instability of human calculations. I tell you, you cannot control public opinion.—(Cheers.) We may be weak here : but this I - tell you, that the consequence of your triumph will be to show that there is in this country a public opinion, which cannot be controlled by the votes of this House, and independent of them.—( Hear.) I never was more convinced of the truth of any proposition than this, that public opinion will not sanction your proceeding. It may bow with apparent submission, but not with approbation—your attempt to throw impediments in the way of the Executive Go vernment. It will nut sanction your vote of want of confidence, if such is meant to be implied by your proceedings.—(Hear, hear,) Why not declare that your object is net to throw out the present Government, but to make the Government in which you have no confidence undertake those measures. Are you confident in your own thought? You say you have a majority ; and if so, are yes prepared to assume the executive Government ?—( Cheers.) That is a question which I think should be asked. If you feel that you can count upon the support of the people and upon a majority of this House, why not at once take that course which will decide the question, and assume that responsibility ? I avow that Ica :dot undertake to enforce tbs proposition—l differ from you, and I give you this fair advice, I intend to object to the Committee—l intend to object to the resolution—l intend to object to the communica tion of that resolution to his Majesty.—(Ministerial cheers.) If, after that, you persevere in this resolution, and that you intend to object to the progress of that measure—(hear, hear)—the principle of _ which, I admit, I am bound to believe is necessary to the settlement of the tithe question—if you perse vere in a principle which I cannot concur in, then I shall admit (the intention being clearly intimated) that it will be my duty to declare that it will be impossible for use to remain in the situation which I have at present the honour is fill.—(The R:glit lion. Baronet sat down amid loud andlong continued cheering from the Minis terial Benches.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose to reply. He felt it neces sary, althougli he had detained the House too long at the corn meiesement of the debate, to take some notice of what had trans pired during the debate, but mere especially of the attacks which had been made upon him and his motives, and of those with whom he acted. A Right Hon. Gentleman had charged him with bring leg forward that question upon which the puce of Ireland depended—a question in which the principle of Church Establishment in some degree depended, fur no other purpose then a wish to . embarrass the Cove nment.—(Cheers.) lie thought it necessary, therefore, to offer some explanat ion to • House with regard to his conduct upon tha t matte'. With retard to what had fallen from the Righ t Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham). the With regard to the Church Temporalities Bill, in justice to him self, Le was obliged to state what took place upon its introductic na