The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-17 00:00:00

Crown.must suffer by the judgment of the House of Com mons passed upon the appointment. I must, at the same time, say that the appointment was altogether so ill advised, as to render the interference of this House necessary, and to justify the observations of the Honourable and Learned Member for Tipperary, and other Hen. Members.—( Hear. ) But I must say, that in the experiment which we are making —an experiment which the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir Robert Peel) calls a fair trial—we are running a considerable hazard of bringing the most useful prerogatives of the Crown into some discredit. If offices of great trust are confided to persons in whom the House of Commons and the country feel no confidence, the House of Commons are bound to express their opinions upon those appointment:. He felt that in the present case it was most unfortunate that his Majesty's Government had selected a person against whom such strong objections were entertained.—( Cheers. ) He felt that it would greatly diminish the respect in which the Government of this country was viewed by Foreign Courts —(Great cheering)—when they found the notification of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that an Ambassador had been appointed, cancelled, if not by a direct vote, by the implied censure of the House of Commons.—( Great cheering.) He could not help giving expression to these statements, con sidering the Noble Marquis by no means a fit person to be sent out as the Ambassador of this c - anitry to the Court of St. Peters burgh. The blame, rested not with that Nobleman or with the Crown, who had made the appointment, but with the Mi nisters who had advised the Crown to do so.—( Loud cheers.) Sir R. PEEL—Sir, the Noble Lord has assumed that the retirement of the Marquis of Londonderry - took place in con sequence of the course that had been pursued by the House of Commons.—(Great cheering, for several minutes, from the Opposition.) I was not going to deny that it took place in consequence of the discussion in the House of Commons. No. thing would be so unfair and unjust.—( Cheers.) But I wish to remind the Noble Lord that it was a discussion, and not an act or authorised proceeding of the House of Commons, which could be considered in the nature of an address. When the Right Honourable Baronet, the Member for Not tingham, asked me whether it was my intention to advise the Crown to cancel the appointment, I felt it was my duty to state that I should not consider it my duty, as a public man, to tender that advice.—( Great cheering.) Some Hon. Gentlemen may suppose that the act of the Marquis of Londonderry has taken place in consequence of some indirect communication with the Government to those gentlemen. I would say that such is not the case, and that the proceeding is the unsolicited act of the Marquis of Londonderry himself.—( Loud and repeated cheering.) The appointment had no doubt met with the disapprobation of some of the Members of that House who expressed them selves dissatisfied with it in the course of the debate. But if the Noble Marquis requires it, it will be some consolation to know that the same Members who were dissatified with his appoint ment also objected to the re-appointment of Viscount Canter bury to the Chair of the House. If the Noble Lord opposite and those connected with him think that they can form a Government possessing more of the confidence of the country than that to which I am attached—( Cheers )—the proper course for him to pursue will be to give notice of a direct motion, which the Hon. Member for Middlesex has intimated will be given, and then we shall be able to see whether, upon the result of that motion, the House of Commons will be prepared to accede to a motion, the acceding to which will be tantamount to the removal of Ministers.—( Hear, hear. ) In my situation I consider that no slight vexatious, no personal disagreeables, should induce me to relinquish the place which I fill. If the question respecting Government is to be brought to issue, the only way to decide it will be, not by indirect motions, which it is hoped will not be acted upon, but by a direct appeal to the House respecting its opinion of the Go vernment.—( Hear, hear.) The question should be put di rectly to the House, whether a government more fit and more in accordance with its sentiments can be formed ; and no man can be more anxious than myself that the question should be tried. Mr. HUME rose, and was commencing to speak, when Lord Stanley rose to order, observing that there was no ques tion before the House. Mr. HUME continued—He said he considered the Noble Lord's call to order quite unnecessary. The Right Hon. Baronet had, in alluding to Viscount Canterbury, cast a reflection upon him and other Members near him, which the Right Hon. Ba ronet had no right to do. From what had just been said by the Right Hon. Baronet, it was evident that it was not a slight mark of want of confidence which would convince the Right Hon. Baronet arid his colleagues. It was only a direct expression of opinion which would convince them, and he hoped that this would soon come.—( Hear, hear.) The con duct of Lord Londonderry had raised him in his opinion, and proved that he had more discretion than the Right Hon. Ba ronet and his colleagues.--( Hear.) His Lordship had not run counter to the opinions of that House as the Ministers had. —( Hear, hear. )—They said they would proceed notwith standing the opinions of that House.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had said the other night, that his ( Mr. Hume's) eggs had brought forth no chickens—(hear, hear, and loud laughter)—but his egg was good as long as it was left in a good nest. —( Hear and laughter.) The Right Hon. Ba ronet's egg, however, had produced nothing, although he and the Noble Duke had been sitting on it so long.—( Laughter.) He should like to see the letter which had been addressed to the Autocrat of Russia on the appointment of the Noble Marquis. He should also like to see how he would receive (as the Autocrat was not usually consi dered very much in favour of popular measures)—in what manner he would receive the letter certifying their obligation to withdraw. He congratulated the House that such an ap pointment was not to take place as that of Lord Londonderry as Ambassador to Russia. Au Hon. MEMBER congratulated that House, and every lover of liberty, that the Noble Marquis had given up the high office of representing this country in Russia, because he ,had mentioned publicly his opinion of the struggles of the bravest and most able men who had contended for their rights, by calling the Poles " rebels." _ _ Sir - ROBERT INGLIS thought that whatever opinion might be entertained of the debate of Friday, there was no one but must concur in the sentiment expressed therein res pecting the high-minded conduct pursued by Lord London derry.—( Hear, hear.) They could not but concur with the Noble Lord who spoke that evening, that the precedent set on Friday last, in the case of Lord Londonderry, was pregnant with great danger. If an address had formally passed that House, and had produced the present result, however it might diminish the Royal prerogative, would, he thought, be fraught - with less danger than this—that a mere conversation in that House would have the effect of taking the services of any indi vidual, whether wisely or not, from the Crown, was a subject greatly to be regretted—( Hear, hear.) When the , Noble Lord received the thanks of that House he little expected the return that would have been made to him—( Hear, hear, and cries of " Oh, oh !" from the Opposition Members). Sir HENRY HARDING E thought that his Noble Friend would not take any steps which would not be creditable to him. His Noble Friend was bound, as a man of honour and of spirit, to take the step he did.—( Hear, and cheers.) He thought that charges unfounded, charges unjust, and he was bound to say, in some instances, ungenerous, were preferred against his Noble Friend.—( Hear, hear.) But there was not anything stated, which could be said in private life to reflect upon his Noble Friend. There was not anything in that way said with which he could find fault, being so many years inti mately connected with his Noble Friend ; had any such thing been said, he would have felt it his duty to notice it, but he must do lion. Gentlemen the justice to say, that no such ex pression fell from them.---(Hear, hear.) Fault had been found with an expression attributed to his Noble Friend, respecting the Poles. On the very subject of Poland, he was able to say that the sentiments of the Noble Lord were directly the op posite of those ascribed to him. No individual could enter tain a higher opinion of the sentiments of his late brother upon every political subject, than the present Marquis of Lon donderry. Now, the late Lord Londonderry, in his foreign relations, showed the strongest sympathy in favour of the Poles ; and the present Lord Londonderry was most anxious to follow his footsteps in that particular.—(Hear, hear.) He repeated, however, that in what his Noble Friend had done, he, as a man of honour and of spirit, could not have acted otherwise. Sir J. C. HOBHOIT SE could not feel the weight of the arguments used by the Hon. Member for Oxford; but this he would tell the Hon. Member that more frightful evils than he deplored must follow from the Ministers of the Crown endea vouring to govern the country by a minority instead of a ma jority.—( Hear, and cheeers.) If a Minister of the Crown possessed the confidence of that House—if he were able to wield a majority—not a large majority, but one available for the purposes of carrying on the affairs of the country—no such calamity as that which the Hon. Member for Oxford lamented could have occurred ; because the Prime Minister would have known that, let the Opposition talk as long as they pleased, he could come with his majority and settle the point by the votes of that House. The abuse would be nothing, for the votes would do it away. But in consequence of the position —and he must take the liberty of saying, the false position-- in which the Right Hon. Gentleman was placed—trying that which might be called an untried experiment, of governing the country with a minority of Parliament, the present state of things was produced.—( Hear.) He would say, therefore, that if there were anything improper in the precedent re ferred to on that side of the House, he must consider it not so much a personal matter as against the Marquis of Londonderry, as he considered it another proof that the Right Hon. and Hon. Gentlemen opposite were not in the possession of the confidence of the country. It was a condem nation of our foreign policy, if it meant anything—it was a condemnation, if it meant anything, of those politics of which the Noble Marquis was supposed to be the supporter with re ference to the Poles. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland had told them, indeed, that he was aware, from private sources, that the sentiments of the Noble Marquis were not those which had been imputed to him. If that were the case, it was unfortunate that he should not only have formerly condemned ! She conduct of the Poles wholly, b u t h ave t a k en upon hi mse lf to call their proceedings " rebellious." He had done this without coming into a warm debate—he had done this not in the excitement caused by a furious debate—but he had done it in an opening speech ; from which circumstance he could not but regard this as the deliberate opinion of the Noble Marquis. Having said thus much in answer to the ob servations of his Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, he could not, in sitting down, refrain from rendering his tribute to the Noble Marquis, who had taken the obvious course which had been pointed out by the answer. The Right Hon. Gen tleman had told them that the Government had not recom mended the course which had been pursued, and he thought that the Government could not have acted otherwise, for in his own case he would sooner have thrown up office, notwith standing the opinion of the House might be against him. He certainly felt, however, that, under other circumstances, the House would have proposed some Address, upon which they 1 would have come to a definite decision. Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to remind the House that he was placed in a very hard position by debates going on in this manner when he had given his answer—a course of pro ceeding by which he was precluded from making a reference to the remarks which arose.—( Cries of " Go on, go on.") Then he would beg first to thank the Right Hon. Gentleman for the spirit in which he had spoken—a spirit which was wor thy of him as a public man. Supposing he ( Sir Robert Peel) had said, in answer to the Right Hon. Baronet's question, any thing leading to the supposition that he had thought it proper to advise the Marquis of Londonderry to retire---should he not have compromised the situation which he held ? Could any thing have been more unjust than to have robbed the Noble Marquis of the credit of forming his own judgment and acting upon it? He thought the Right Hon. Baronet did justice to his Majesty's Government only in maintaining that they had not abandoned the Noble Marquis. Had he ( Sir Robert Peel) brought forward the declaration of the Government in a manner which was insulting to the House of Commons ? After some further remarks, the Right Hon. Gentleman con demned the course w hi c h had been taken on this subject, by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, which was too important to be met by a discussion on the question that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. He would say, however, with all respect, and without meaning to arraign the course which had been pursued, or the opinions of Honourable Gentlemen, but, in his own vindication, that he never would have thought of dictating to the Noble Marquis of Londonderry, but would al ways have left him to take that line which his own sense of honour and propriety suggested to him ; nor would he ( Sir R. Peel) enter upon those opinions of the Noble Marquis, which the Hon. Gentleman had cited as emanating from him on a former occasion—nor upon those reasons which had induced the Noble Marquis to resign his situation. Ha felt obliged to the House,which bad thought proper to give him the opportunity of noticing these circumstances, and he would not go further than to state that, though he thought it perfectly fair for the Hon. Member for Middlesex to give notice of a motion having for its object the bringing the principles of the Government to the test, he thought, hardly fair towards the House that this should be done at an early period, he should yet shrink from naming the day on which it should be brought forward. On the motion of which that Hon. Gentleman had given notice he ( Sir Robert Peel) was prepared to meet him ; as he thought that, if the House had voted for the limitation of the supplies, it would have been such a denouncement of the Government that no Government could have consented to remain in office. If, in ' deed, the Hon. Gentleman could not find a day for this mo tion, he ( Sir R. Peel) would find one for him, be would faci litate his views. But if the Hon. Member for Middlesex wais not prepared to name a day, it was not fair in him to deal in menaces which he was not prepared also to put in force. Mr. HUME said that with reference to the part which he and others were about to undertake, he thought that they had a perfect right to choose their own time and place. Sir R. PEEL—This was the second time in which the Hon. Gentleman had said he would be prepared to bring the motion forward on an early day, but in consequence of these repeated declarations the House had not come to a vote. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not the right to ask the House to come to a vote at once. He thought that the case upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman stood forward was this, " Though you may not give your implicit confidence, give us a fair trial ; let us bring forward our measures, and then judge of them." If, however, they were brought forward, allowing they had been brought forward under such circumstances, this would (as we understood) be tantamount to a direct vote of confidence, and he put it to the Hon. Gentleman whether this would not pre clude them from being heard afterwards ? However, it would then have been said, " You want to condemn and reject our plans." He (Lord John Russell) would not expose himself to this answer, and he for one was willing to wait for the time when the Right Gentleman should bring forward his measures. Sir ROBERT PEEL observed that the Noble Lord ap peared to think that by pursuing the course which he had re commended, it would be implied that that Noble Lord, and those with whom he acted, were giving their confidence to the present Government. But what were the measures which the Government proposed to bring forward? He meant to bring in a Bill to-morrow with respect to Dissenters' mar riages—next week they proposed to introduce a measure for the Commutation of Tithes in England and Wales—then his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland was going this week to propose a measure to settle that most difficult of all questions (and which it was necessary to decide), namely, that of tithes in Ireland. Now, he would ask the Noble Lord who had last addressed the House, whether, in the case of a defeat in the House of Commons upon an equivocal question, such as that of the Speaker, if he had lightly thrown up the Government, the Noble Lord and others would not have said that this was a cowardly aban donment of principle—that he never meant to bring forward any of those measures to which he had pledged himself—that he had basely shrunk from his trial ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL observed that had the Right Hon. Gentleman had his own way, he would have taken the advan tage, and would have obtained many votes. Mr. Cutler Ferguson, an Hon. Member, Mr. Williams (of Coventry), and Mr. Alexander Baring, severally made some observations which did not reach the gallery. In answer to some question put by an Hon. MEMBER which was not audible, Sir ROBERT PEEL had taken the opportunity of look ing into the papers, and with reference to the erection of an official residence of the embassy to Constantinople, at Pera, proposals had been made for achieving this object ; and he had no hesitation in saying that the late Government did not raise a permanent residence with a view to maintain economy, but an engineer officer had been sent over there to see that the estimates were drawn out correctly, but (as we understood) no amount for this object was included in the estimates. Mr. ROEBUCK begged to ask a question with reference to the supplies for Canada, and was understood to refer to the case of a late officer who had paid money without the vote of that House. He wished to know whether it was meant to ex pend money out of the military chest ? Sir ROBERT PEEL said he would give the question further consideration before he could reply. Mr. LAB OUC HE RE wished to call the attention of his Majesty's Government to the fact that an idea had gone abroad that upon the expenditure for the next year for the navy estimates there would be a saving or diminution of charge of not less than 332,0001. Did that sum include the sum of 100,000/. calculated in the estimate of last year under the head of wages to seamen and mariners, to the ordinary and yard craft? In July, last year, an alteration, which was thought a most beneficial one, was made in the mode of paying wages. It was not considered prudent to trust seamen with the large sums of money which they had hitherto been in the habit of receiving, after perhaps three years' service abroad ; and in lieu of this system a grant of 100,0001. was made, or included in the estimates of last year, under the head of monthly allowance, and, consequently, large monthly payments of wages were made to ships, at the time it was necessary to meet these in creasing sums. Now he could not help expressing his regret that the Right Hon. Baronet should have included this amount of 100,000/. in the estimates of last year. He did not mean to say that he intended to practise a delusion, but it had that effect, because it Was believed that there was an actual dimi nution of expenditure of 332,000/. When the Right Hon. Baronet stated the saving on the estimates to be 500,000/., he took it for granted that the 100,0001. was not included, and he should be glad to hear a declaration on the part of the Govern ment to the effect that the diminution of expenditure under the head of navy estimates would be 232,000/. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that what he had stated was, that a saving cf 500,000/. would be effected on the estimates, and he stated expressly that this was as compared with the estimates of last year, but not a saving with regard to the expenditure thereof. The expenditure last year did not amount to the sum voted, and, therefore, he did not take credit for this saving in the navy estimates. Mr. L ABOUCHE RE said that this item of 100,0001. had no more to do with the navy estimates for the ensuing year than the late grant in reference to the men engaged at the battle of Navarin had, and the including this sum in the esti mate of last year was calculated to produce an erroneous idea that there was a deduction of this amount in the present year from the vote for wages. Lord ASHLEY stated that they should have been guilty of an injustice if they had taken credit for'more than the sum of 232,000/. But the Hon. Gentleman would observe that they had separated this item of 100,000/. from others in the estimate, and that it was not included in this abatement. After an observation from Mr. POULETT THOMSON, which was not audible, Captain PECHF,LL said that these errors must occur unless the estimates were made out in a different manner. Mr. FINN was understood to withdraw the motions of which he had given notice ; but in this case, as in several others, from the circumstance of the Hon. Gentleman sitting near the Chair, we could not hear distinctly. Sir E. CODRINGTON put a question respecting the classification in the dock-yards, &c. Lord ASHLEY replied that he was not then prepared to answer. Mr. HUME asked whether any papers would be laid on the table relative to the building of lighthouses, as he under stood that there was an intention, in combination with the United States of America, to erect certain lighthouses ? In which case it was essential that the House should know what expenditure was to be incurred. Lord ASHLEY could not answer the question, but would make it his business to inquire into the matter. Mr. FITZ STEPHEN FRENCH begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet one question. Could it be possible that it was intended to call upon the clergy in Ireland to repay the instalments made to them on the loan of 1,000,000/. two years since. Sir R. PEEL thought it desirable that the discussion upon or reply to this question should be entered into when his Right Hon. Friend would bring on his motion for settling the question of tithes in Ireland. He did not wish to antici pate any part of that discussion. POOR LAW COMMISSION (IRELAND). In answer to a question from an Hon. MEMBER, Mr. Secretary GOULBURN said that with reference to the Commission of Poor Law Inquiry in Ireland a report had been transmitted to him, stating that the Commissioners were still actively employed in the discharge of their duty, and that they had divided their inquiry into two branches ; the first being directed to the best mode by which the present paupers should be relieved, and into the case of those especially who were not able to provide for themselves ; the second branch of the inquiry was directed to the causes of the present pauperism. The first was concluded, and it was not thought satisfactory to send up a general report until the second branch was completed. A message from the Lords announced their Lordships' con currence to sundry Bills. Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord a question. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 17, 1835. When that Noble Lord asked for 26,500 sailors and marines, he had ventured to suggest that the estimates should be so drawn out as to show the number of all classes of officers, pursers, surgeons, &c.—why not pursue the same mode as in the case of the army ? If they had battalions of marines, why could they not specify the number of colonels, majors, &c. ? Then again arose the question as to full and half-pay. By a return laid on the table of the House on the 27th of June, 1834, it appeared that out of 5,300 o ffi cers o f the navy only 461 P or 470 were on full pay, so that there were nearly 5,000 officers on half-pay ! Surely this was a bad arrangement. The course taken was entirely wrong. The estimates, instead of being introduced in the manner they were to that House, should in the first instance be discussed in a Committee up stairs, where they could be deliberately and narrowly ex amined.—( Hear, hear.) That was the cours e taken in every other country. The old system was everywhere else thrown aside. In the United States, when the President had had the public estimates laid before the Representatives of the people, they appointed a committee to ascertain every necessary in formation respecting the several items. Why the same sys tem was not adopted here he could not surmise. The House should take the details of the expenditure into its own hands. Such was the case in Belgium where the public Representa tives of the people, after a proper examination, report on every item. Was it possible that the Commons of England would irrationally refuse to show equal anxiety for the money of the people whom they represented ? He referred to items for the marine service. ° There were ten battalions of marines, to use a sea phrase, all lumped together. The manner of doing business was by an average guess. Why not do it by a regular detail of items, distinguishin g p ro p er ly eac h serv i ce , and spe cifying each rank ? For his part he was unwilling to go through the farce of voting away money without data sufficient to as sure him that the estimates upon which he voted the money were essential and economical. The cost of the marine force was lumped up with that of the general service afloat; it was included in that of 26,500 men, which was set down at 652,3981. The expense of the marine force is not specified except in two lines—(Laughter)—where it is set down at 933,0541. Why were not the number of generals, of colonels, or captains mentioned ? If these were specified in the army and engi neers, why not in the marines ?—( Hear.) He meant, with the view of removing all that mystery, to ask the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, whether he would have any objection to allow the appointment of a Financial Committee, such as was appointed in 1828, in order to ascertain what reductions might be made in those estimates.—( Hear, hear.) In alluding to that question before, he reminded the Right Hon. Baronet, that on a former occasion he had himself proposed a similar Committee. The Right Hon. Baronet, however, denied it. He forgot that on the 15th Feb. 1828- Sir ROBERT PE EL thought the Hon. Member spoke of a Committee to revise the general taxation of the country. The results to trade, from the appointment of such a Commit tee, would render it impossible, on his part, to correct it. But such a Committee as the Hon. Member then spoke of, was appointed in 1817, and also in 1828. Mr. HUME was under a different impression. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet had understood him clearly. But even with respect to the general taxation, it was high time that Parliament should take into consideration a system of taxation imposed when the people had no power in Parlia ment. The present high amount of taxation was not at all necessary. The efficient service did not require 20.000,000/. The Right Hon. Bart. said there were 15,000,000/. disposable. One of the arguments used against the repeal of the Malt Tax was that the 5,000,0001. of which it consisted was one-third of the whole disposable revenue. He was prepared to go into the items, and show that that was not the fact. What he however wanted was, that the House should go into an inquiry. If they did so, an immense saving must be the result. Why, on the stores purchased for ships, since the last war, from 25,000,000/. to 30,000,000/. might have been saved. He was prepared to prove that they could make their establishments more efficient with less money. He had it from officers well conversant with these matters, that the establishments reduced by the Right Hon. Member for Cumberland were more effec tive since the reduction than before.—( Hear, hear.) He should like to know if the Noble Lord (Ashley) could state the quantity of timber necessary for the refit of ships in ordinary, or any other expenditure incidental to their repair ; and if he could not—if he were unacquainted with those matters, how could he call on that House to vote 3,000,000/. or 4,000,000/. for those purposes ? In 1792, no ships were repaired in the docks without an estimate of the entire cost, which was sub mitted to a proper officer. There was no such thing now. On the works at Sheerness—he had given his opinion before on these works-3,500,0001. was thrown away. With respect to provisions, he knew not whether they were supplied by contract. The article of beer, he understood, was excluded from the navy—rum was used instead. He appealed to the Hon. Member for Sheffield if that ought to be in face of the Temperance Societies ?—( Laughter.) He (Mr. Hume) would prefer supplying the navy with wine. The fact was, they could supply wine as cheap as beer. He thought that was a subject of inquiry, most important as affecting the health of the service. The Admiralty Office cost 108,844/. That was the sum paid for directing the affairs of the navy. He staked his existence it would yet be done for 50,000/. The Navy Pay-office cost 22,1831. He had a pledge from the late Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Navy Pay-office would be abolished. The Army Pay-office cost 25,0001.—the Navy Pay-office 22,0001.—the Ordnance Pay-office 10,000/. The cost of the entire ought not to exceed 10,000/. The whole system might, on a proper plan, be considerably economised. The half-pay might be reduced if the principle were followed which was acted on in the marines, that of promoting in regular gra dation according to senio?ity. In the marines interest will not ' affect promotion ; but then the connections of the aristocracy did not enter the marines.—( Laughter, and hear, hear.) He believed that had the system he once recommended been ge nerally adopted of making out no new appointments in this branch of our service, the charge for the half-pay would not exceed 500,000/., instead of its amount, in the present esti mates, stated at 819,000/. That system had been reduced to practice in the marines, where not more than one or two ap pointments had been made in the year ; whilst in the navy the appointments had not been on an average less than from 20 to 30 a year. The marines had been always a hard used service, and nothing had been done to put them on a fair relative foot ing with the sea service. He objected to the House going into Committee, because they were not prepared to do so. But he thought he had laid down grounds for going into the whole of this question in a select Committee. He should therefore move as an amendment that the naval estimates be referred to a Select Committee above stairs, to report there upon to the HOMO. _ _ Sir R. PEEL—From what he ( Sir R. Peel) had said on :he occasion alluded to by the Hon. Member, it was pretty clear that he had never been opposed to ample inquiry being instituted upon all this class of subjects: But there was one thing he would never consent to, and that was to adopt the practice of appointing Committees for the purpose of re lieving the Executive Government, from the due and proper responsibility which it ought never to decline, as the King's Government.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He would not consent to make a Committee above stairs the judges of a question—such, for instance, as the amount of our land or naval force, when it was obvious that that question could only be decided by Government itself, from representations made to it from our diplomatic agents abroad, as to the necessity for a large or a small force on the probabi lity of maintaining peaceable relations with our neighbours. To permit this, would be to transfer the power of the monarchy to a Committee of the House of Commons—( Loud cheering) —a principle in which he never would concur. He would say to the House, " Don't part with this power to any 21 gentle men above stairs." The general fate of questions submitted to such Committee was too well known to require explanation. After being wearied out with the long speeches of some Member—not the Hon. Member--( A laugh )—the Members turned a deaf ear, and determined that it was too full, perhaps, of technicalities for them, and were glad, any how, to get rid of the trouble of deciding it ; and in this way the body of the House never became conversant with the subject, which they might easily have effected, if the subject were debated in the 'House, with the advantage of having a Minister of the Crown to affurd the information necessary for them to make up their minds upon it. Yet the Hon. Member went on exclaiming, " Oh, I wish only the House would but read the reports, and possess themselves of the valuable information they contained." But despite of all his wishes, numbers did not read them, nor never, perhaps, would ; yet the Hon. Member wished to add another volume to this enormously voluminous body of evidence and information. A proof had been given by the Right Hon. Baronet's ( Sir J. Graham) success in enforcing economy in the navy, that if a Government were bent on economy, the Execu tive itself would effect it much more efficaciously than even a Committee of that House. Without at all meaning to wish the House should pledge itself not to appoint a Committee, in the nature of a Finance Committee, to inquire into any of these subjects, he would suggest to the House that it ought to endeavour to make itself master of these subjects. Now h e would ask, as to the marine force, what wish could the Ministry have to decline giving all the information in its power so as to possess them of the whole question, as well as that of the ex tent and grounds of pensions to that corps? If the Hon. Member was dissatisfied with th e mo d es o f prepar i ng t h e esti mates, which were in the same form as they were last year, when he made no objection to them, why not have suggested some new and better mode of preparing them ? He did, for these reasons, hope that the Hon. Member, reserving to him self the right of moving hereafter a reduction of any of the items, would suffer the House to make a further progress in the estimates now, and not press his amendment. Mr. HUME thought he was called on to make this amend ment, in consequence more particularly of the phrase made use of by the Noble Lord, that we were come now to the minimum of the estimates for the navy. That he had not given notice of the intention to pursue this course was to be attributed to his never imagining that the Right Hon. Baronet would have been permitted to go on so far as these estimates with the busi ness as Prime Minister. Sir ROBERT PEEL—Exactly so. What the Hon. Member now confessed, he (Sir Robert Peel) had foreseen all along. The Hon. Member had pursued the prophetic course of one who already conceived himself Minister.—(A laugh.) He had anticipated that he should be in his place, and Chan cellor of the Exchequer. But even so, if this Committee were necessary now, the same estimates being before the House, the Committee would have been equally necessary had the Hon. Member been Minister. Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY—It had been said that if that House was called on to decide what should be the number of the naval force of the country, it would be a transfer of the power of the Crown to the House of Commons. Now he would ask if that power did not rest with the Commons, and they were not fit to decide it, was it not a mockery to put it to the vote, in which they reluctantly had acqu i esce d, t h at a f orce should be kept up to the extent of 26,000 men? He thought there were advantages resulting from the appointment of a Committee; one was the facility of examining a multitude of witnesses. He should, if his Hon. Friend pressed n. to a di vision, vote for him. The Hon. F. BERKELEY though he had no confidence in Ministers, he had said before, and he should now repeat it, that he would not offer any factious opposition to his Majesty's Government. Indeed, in the present instance, he would not vote for the amendment without, as he conceived, making a stab at the interests of the profession of which he was a member. Mr. G. F. YOUNG said, the estimates were prepared in nearly the same manner as they were last year, yet it was sin gular there had been no objection then taken to them by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. Sir HENRY PARNELL supported the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, because he thought subjects of such importance, and which related to such a vast proportion of the expenditure of the country should he submitted to men who had some experience in the details. It was quite impos sible that new Members could be competent to judge of the details, and he therefore thought that a rule should be laid down that all questions relating to estimates and keeping ac counts should be referred to a Select Committee. If that principle were adopted the report might be delivered to the House in two days, or, at all events, within a week after the Committee was appointed. That was not a matter of theory, for it had been practised most beneficially by a neighbouring nation, he Meant France. All questions of this kind were re ferred to Sections or Committees. These Sections sometimes amounted to 15, and their report filled 140 quarto pages. They. in fact, entered into all the details of the navy, the num ber of ships of the line, the number of frigates, stores, &c. The report was drawn up in an intelligible shape, and then submitted to the House. He should be glad to see such a plan adopted in this country. Sir JAMES GRAHAM was glad that the Hon. Member had made the motion, though, if he were to speak his senti ments, he considered it the worst motion possible. He was at the same time convinced that the result of the discussion would be most satisfactory to the House. He was no longer a mem ber of his Majesty's Government ; but if he were a member, he would at the same time candidly state that if this job were to be concealed, the most effectual mode of concealing it would be to exclude the public from the discussion, and refer it to a Select Committee up-stairs.—( Hear.) The vote for rum, for instance, or, indeed, for almost any article for the use of the navy, he would ask any two Admirals, or any two Post Captains present was not that a question which it would be most difficult for a Committee up stairs to discuss ? The Right Hon. Baronet, the member for Dundee, had alluded to the practice adopted by the French Chamber, and had eulo gised it. He must be allowed, however, to differ from that Right Hon. Gentleman on that head, and he did so with the more confidence, because he remembered perfectly well that when he brought forward the navy estimates last year, they met with the concurrence of the Hon. Member for Dundee, and what was still more, they gave some slight satisfaction to the Honourable Member for Middlesex.-- (A laugh.) That Honourable Member again and again bad pressed on the House the necessity of reducing the navy to what it was in 1792. Now he could tell that Honourable Member that the number of ships was fewer for the present year than it was in 1792, or had ever been since. Hon. Mem bers ought to bear that in mind, and consider what the conse quence would be if we should be involved in a naval war with out a sufficient navy. While on the subject, he begged to be allowed to say a few words on the great change which had been made in the naval department while he was at the head of the Admiralty, and, though strenuously opposed by some at the time, it was opposed by the Gentlemen now on the Trea sury bench. He would, however, do injustice if he did not mention that he had received from Lord Melville the most de tailed information relative to the establishment, and the reme dies which that Noble Lord proposed, and that be it remem bered, when party spirit ran high. His measures were opposed both in that House and in the House of Lords, but never by Lord Melville ; and if they had any merit, Lord Melville was entitled to a fair share.—( Hear, hear.) Both the Honourable Member for the County of Edinburgh, and Mr. Croker op posed the consolidation of the Boards ; but, notwithstanding the outcry raised, he was confident that the system would work easily, and, upon the whole, be conducive to the public good. The reduction was proposed in 1832, and was strongly opposed by some members in the House of Commons, and also by the Duke of Wellington :n the House of Peers, who made the fol lowing remark with regard to the saving of 400,0001. made in the dock-yards:— " Then came the saving of 400,0001. on the purchases of timber for the navy. Now, the magazines for the supply of the navy must be kept up by an annual expenditure. If they curtailed this annual expenditure one year, they would be compelled to spend more at a future period, and not so advantageously for the country, for it was indispensably necessary that the timber for the navy should be well seasoned, arid to purchase when required would cost at least double what it would do to keep a regular and constant supply. At all events, it was impossible to calculate this saving as being more than temporary. That remark hurt him much at the time, but it was some satis faction to find that, within three months after the present Mi nistry had taken office, they declared that they found not only a sufficient supply, but had been able to make a further reduction of 60,000/.—( Hear. ) Sir HENRY PARNELL explained. Sir IL PEEL, in reply to the allusion made by the Right Hon. Baronet, that the changes had been opposed by those now on the Treasury Benches, could only say that he had not opposed them in any way whatever. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the allusion he made applied to Sir George Clerk, Sir George Cockburn, and Mr. Croker. Dr. BOWRING supported the amendment, and said the same principle was adopted in France, and had been found most effective in diminishing expense. The House then divided, when there were— For the original motion For the amendment Majority The House then went into the Committee. The first vote moved was a sum not exceeding 933,0541. for the wages of the crews of navy transports, yard craft, tank vessels, &c. Mr. HUME wished to know how many officers and seamen were employed on board the yachts ? Sir J. GRAHAM said that the number was the same as las year. 146 66 -80 Mr. HUME wished to know the precise number, but it now seemed to be decided that no information was to be given.— (Cries of "Nolno !" from the Ministerial benches.) What he meant was that no information was to be given in a Com mittee up stairs. An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, said that the number of men distributed on board the yachts was 15, 16, and 14. Mr. H LIME took it for granted that these 15 were officers of various ranks, from the Captain downwards. Sir J. GRAHAM said that four yachts were kept up, but only two were employed, and these were generally engaged in making communications between the dock yards. Mr. HUME wished to know if the two that were employed had their full complement of men? He would ask why the two others which were not employed at all should still be kept up? Mr. G. F. YOUNG objected to the keeping up of the two yachts, which were not employed, and maintained that four were not necessary for his Majesty's accommodation. An Hon. MEMBER, whose name did not reach us, desired to know if, while the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) was in office, the two yachts to which he had alluded were always employed, and whether the other two were always in attendance? Sir J. GRAHAM replied in the affirmative, and said that one of the yachts formed part of the Royal squadron last year, when her Majesty went abroad. Mr. HUME said that the information he required was as to how many seamen were kept on board the yachts which were not employed, and how much they were paid ? Lord ASHLEY said that the number of officers and men employed in the navy varied at different times, according to circumstances. At some periods the number might be three or even five times greater than as others. The number of offi cers at present employed was nine Admirals, 44 Captains, 54 Commanders, and 333 Lieutenants. Mr. HUME must repeat his question, as the Noble Lord had given 130 answer to it. Lord ASHLEY said that only two boats's crews and two Captains were employed, but he could not state the precise amount of their pay. Sir S. WHALLEY should propose a reduction of two of the yachts, but he could not do so without the necessary in formation as to the amount of the expense incurred in keeping thein up. Sir G. CLERK contended it would be inexpedient to di minish the number, and injurious to the interest of the public service. Mr. G. F. YOUNG gave notice that he would move for an account of the total expense of the unemployed yachts for the last three years, and upon the bringing up of the report move that the amount of such expense be deducted from the estimates. VV ..... Admiral ADAM insisted, that, in a maritime country like this, it would be unjust to the Royal dignity to make the con templated reduction. Mr. A. CHAPMA N said it would be a disgrace to the country, as well as to the House of Commons, to put down an establishment expressly intended for his Majesty's recreation and convenience. Sir E. UODRINGTON and Sir T..TROWBRIDGE said a few words to the same effect, deprecating the proposition of the Hon. Member for Middlesex as totally unworthy the conside ration of the House. Captain PECHELL defended the system of Captain Sy monds, and denied that it had failed on its application in steam-vessels. Mr. HUME if he were to judge of the estimates by this vote should be justified in saying that one-half of the expense of the navy was useless. Sir JOHN BERE SFORD said that these vessels were kept up at much less expense than if they had been laid up in ordinary, and at the same time they were in readiness for his Majesty. Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON would rather see tho Lord Chamberlain and other high officers dismissed than that the system of economy advocated by the Hon. Member for Middlesex should be introduced. Admiral DURHAM approved of the maintenance of the Royal yachts. He thought that for the honour of the Crown and the dignity of the nation these vessels should be kept in commission. Mr. GILL ON held it to be disgraceful to extract one six pence from the public pockets that was not absolutely ne cessary. Mr. CHARLES BULLER contended that this item bad every mark and characteristic of a job.' Captain BERKELEY said that these yachts were deci dedly useful and economical. If the officers who were em ployed in commanding them came and asked for remuneration de;),. f,Jl* * Ot er:it.e.s, Zhapc:,4 money would be expended than was now paid to them. Mr. YOUNG wished to know if there was any objection to a return of the total expense of maintaining the Royal and Admiralty yachts during the last .four years, the amount paid in wages and emoluments, and the amount expended in repairs and equipments ; also, a return of the duty on which each of the Royal yachts had been employed? Mr. HUME asked whether his Majesty's Government had adopted the rule of their predecessors—viz., that there should be one promotion on every three deaths ? Lord ASHLEY was understood to answer the questions of both Hon. Members in the affirmative. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote asked for was 339,8251. to defray the charge of victuals for seamen and marines in ordinary. Mr. H Ul\l E objected to keeping up a large store of provi sions, on account of the loss that was incurred by a consi derable portion of the biscuit becoming maggotty, and the beef putrid. Sir G. CLERK said that it was necessary to have some provisions in store, as in the Spring months it was impossible to procure victuals. After a few words from Admiral CODRINGTON, Dr. A. BOWRING objected to the practice of the Board of Admiralty selling old stores, and carrying the money to the account of the Admiralty, instead of paying it into the Exche quer. The practice he knew was sanctioned by old usage and precedent. and the House had submitted to it ; but he thought it was an infringement on the power of the House with respect to money grants. Lord ASHLEY offered some explanation, which was not audible in the gallery. Mr. HUME should insist upon having a return furnished of the number of ships laid up in ordinary, compared with those in commission, for he believed himself that for every ship in commission there were three laid up in ordinary. A long desultory discussion here ensued, the major part of which was inaudible, after which the motion was agreed to. The next vote was 108,8441. to defray the salaries of the officers and contingent expenses of the Admiralty. office. Dr. BO WRING said that this vote demanded some revi sion. He knew for a fact that a larger number of individuals were employed in the same service and at a much less expense than here : the proportion was 385 clerks in France, where there were 197 in England. Mr. LAB OUC HE RE said that, in justice to the conveni ence of the service, the establishment at Somerset-house ought to be increased instead of diminished. Mr. HUME did not see why the Secretary of the Admi ralty should be paid so much more than any of the Lords of the Board. Lord ASHLEY said that if the Hon. Member knew any thing of the duties of the Secretary to the Admiralty he would not have made that remark. Mr. G. F. YOUNG said that two Sessions ago he had called the attention of the House to the appointment made by the then Government of the Surveyor of the Navy. It was an office of the highest importance, as on the efficient perform ance of its duties depended the condition of the navy. The appointment to which he then and now objected was that of Captain Symonds, who was placed in that situation in order to carry into operation, in building the new ships, a plan which is was alleged was a ne w one , b u t whi c h was known 50 years ago. He now impugned that plan, and was prepared to show that it was (not only in his but in other practical men's opinion) altogether found e d in wrong principles. Yet ships which had been laid down for years, and whose timbers were well seasoned, had been taken up at an immense expense, to be laid down upon this new old-fashioned plan. He could instance the Boa cawen, which was laid down on the plan of the Courageux, the St. Domingo, and others, and which had been taken up to be relaid at an expense of 10,000/. The Royal Frederick was the same, and others. He begged to ask if the Noble Lord had read Sir G. Cockburn's report (amongst many others on this subject), for if he had he must be aware that that expe rienced and distinguished officer had expressed an opinion not at all in favour of this plan. The system of building new ships upon the principle of Captain Symonds, while we had already excellent vessels laid up in the Docks, and of taking the control of the money expended for the navy out of the hands of those who ought to have the supervision and direction of it was unwise and impolitic. He felt it necessary to make these observations, but he did so in the utter absence of any but the most respectful feelings towards the individual to whom they related. Captain PEC HELL said the remarks made by the Hon. Member for Tynemouth would, he was sure, be as satisfactory to the surveyors of the navy as they were to many gentlemen in that House. He did not stand up to defend the expense of building ships on the principle of Captain Symonds, or the appointment of that gentleman. At the same time he should deplore the necessity of altering an appointment made by the late Board of Admiralty, who had disregarded old-established prejudices, and shown a determination to restore the credit of the British navy by building ships not like so many tea boxes. If the late Government had done nothing else than persevered in their determination to resist and overcome the prejudices which existed on this subject, they would have deserved well of their country. Lord ASHLEY had made inquiry, and found that Captain Symonds's ships were highly approved of by competent autho rities. To show the comparative cost of the two systems, the Noble Lord (who was but indistinctly heard in the gallery) referred to some ships built upon the new principle, which contained 1,013 tons more, and yet cost 14,5171. less than an equal number of vessels built upon the old plan. Mr. YOUNG said that this was no proof that Captain Sy monds's plan was cheaper. The Noble Lord put the case wholly upon tonnage, whereas the alteration of Captain Symonds consisted in a prodigious increase of breadth. He, therefore, only wondered that the difference of expense was not greater. Sir J. GRAHAM willingly held himself responsible for recommending the appointment of Captain Symonds. His works were in progress, and the result of the experiments to be made with them would prove their value. In size the ves sels built by Captain Symonds were, with three or four excep tions, of the lowest class. He had only built one frigate, which was a fourth rate. He believed he was now building two seventy-fours, and one first-rate. All the others were o f a smaller class, and in all it was found that the entire consump tion of materials upon Captain Symonds's principle was smaller than upon any other. The Gallant Admiral who Lad commanded the Vernon, and was practically acquainted with the principle, was expected home shortly, and would be able to give his opinion upon it to the Admiralty. He was satis fied that if he found the principle a good cne, and Captain Symonds deserving of encouragement, he would advise Lord de Grey to continue him, notwithstanding any prejudices which might prevail against him, He was perfectly willing to let the matter rest in that gallant officer'i hands. Of this, at least, he was certain, that Captain Symonds had occasioned no needless expense, for while he (Sir J. Graham) was at the Admiralty, no new ships were built for the purpose of trying experiments which were not wanted. Whatever experiments were made were conducted upon the most economical scale possible, and with the strictest view to spare the public money. As a proof of this he could mention that in the last year that Sir Robert Seppings held the appointment, a vote of 800,000/. was called for, whereas at present the amount was only 358,000/. and yet the naval arsenals never abounded in better materials than at present. Sir E. CODRINGTON bore testimony to the superiority of Captain Symond's principle, and referred to some experi ments, of which he had himself been a witness, in confirma tion of it. One advantage of Captain Symonds's alteration was, that it in a groat measure corrected rolling, which was attended with so much danger. Mr. HUME begged leave to ask whether the Right Hon. Baronet had received reports of the comparative expense of the two plans ? If the allegations of the Hon. Member for Tynemouth were correct, the House ought not to leave the matter without further inquiry. It was notorious that Eng land was behind almost every country in Europe in the appli cation of science to ship-building. It was too much, there fore, of the Right Hon. Baronet to have selected for so im portant a post a naval man who, however great his talent, had no professional science, or knowledge of ship-building to qualify him. He protested against the monopoly established in favour of that gentleman. Last year there were six packets to be built, and instead of two being built upon Captain Symonds's plan, two upon some other, and two more upon a third, as ought to have been done when there was so much difference of opinion, they were all built upon his principle, thus precluding all competition. Let there be a Committee appointed, and let the performance of the ships be examined by scientific men, and the House decide upon their respective merits. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that Sir Thomas Hardy, Sir Wm. Parker, and Sir Josiah Rowley, had already de clared their approbation of Captain Symonds's principle, as well as the Gallant Admiral opposite. As to the Hon. Gen tleman's proposal that a Committee should be formed, and a technical question of this nature judged of by Members of that House, it was so preposterous that he could not accede to it. He conceived that the subject at present rested upon the fairest possible grounds. One of the largest frigates of Captain Symonda' s construct i on was now in the Mediterra mean, and would speedily sail not only with the British squa dron but with foreign vessels. There was scarcely a situation upon which there was not one of Captain Symonds's ships, and in the course of the next year the Admiralty would be in possession of ample means of judging of their performance. He repeated that Sir George Cockburn was about to become the naval adviser of the Admiralty, and he had so much con fidence in his knowledge, integrity, and judgment, that he would rely upon his decision, and was sure he would not let any prejudice be excited in the minds of the Board by partial statements. Let the experiment be fairly tried. In the mean time he did not shrink from the responsibility of having recom mended the appointment. Mr. AARON CHAPMAN had no hesitation in saying that so far as the experiments went, he con s id ere d t h e excel lence of Captain Symonds's principle pre-emi nent , an d h e trusted that no personal consideration would prevent the adop tion of the best principle, but that the interests of the coun try would be studied, and the British navy maintain its supe riority in the world. The vote was then agreed to. The next vote proposed was a sum of 22,1831. for the salaries of officers, and contingent expenses of the Navy Pay-office. Mr. G. F. YOUNG called the attention of the Committee to the item for the expense of sending money to the ports. This antediluvian method of transmitting money, which had cost 1,500/. a year, was now raised to 2,000 7 . He did not see why a less expensive mode might not be adopted. He be lieved this money was only for the payment of artificers, and did not include the wages of seamen. Lord A S FILE Y observed, that though there was an increase of 5001. in one item, there was an decrease of 4001. in another. The money was sent for the purpose of paying off ships. Mr. WARBURTON begged to know why clerks were ••••••.-- „ .:.c'i" 4 i""" ceuiti be 01.).e:1..at • that expense froa, the Branch Bank of England ? Lord ASHLEY said it was done by an arrang ement with Bank. No money was sen t d own but the Bank charged so much per cent for the payment. Mr. YOUNG thought it ought to be done at a cheaper Mr. HUME begged to ask the Right Hon. Bar'enet opr; site if he could give any reason why the late Government 0a" altered their opinion as to the expediency of abolishing the Navy Pay-office. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, on the best reflection be could give the subject, it appeared to hie , that, considering the vast extent of the transactions belonging to that dep!irt ment—and also recollecting that he had abolished some miee r , offices which constituted cheeks upon the management, to would not be safe to another. After some further conversation, in which Dr. Bowring, Low ther Warburton, Sir J. Graham, Mr. Ewart, and Lord L rate , ther took part, the vote was agreed to. The next vote was for 24,5901. to defray the salaries of 016 " cers, &c., of the scientific dep 11of In reply to a question f r o m Mr. S. RICE, wh ich was heard in the gallery, Sir R. PEEL said that h e had not the honour o f a pet- sonal acquaintance with Professor Airey, but he had the big h es d opinion of his abilities in common with n ot only the learn ed of this country, but of Europe.--(Hear, hear.) He had written t to Professor Airey, stating that it would afford him the g reates gratification if he would permit him to place his name before. his Majesty, with a view to placing him on the civil list as as ' pensioner. He stated t o hi m , also, that he thought this w to only an act of justice, for if he had turned his great talents la more lucrative pursuits, there could be no doubt but he wet' have made them more advantageous to himself, and therefore his receiving a pension would be advantageous to the stte° o 4 °' by holding out encouragement to others to devote their e: tion to the interests of science.—( Hear, hear.) He bad 1. 0 ceivecl in reply the permission of Professor Airey to place l name on the Civil List, with a pension of 3001. per a nnum. a Mr. S. RICE said that every Hon. Member of that He% must feel gratified at the communication which had just bee, made by the Right Hon. Baronet. He felt certain that 1 4 . 4 Professor Airey been passed over without notice, it must 'W e t all wishing to detract from the merit due to the been a source of regret to every lover of science. NV ithau t s t Right blo Baronet for this step, lie f e lt b oun d t o s tate that his I%l° Friend who had been rece n tly a t th e h ea d of the Treasury Board, intended to ha ve ma d e some suc h provision for Frei; w fessor Airey. He held in hi s h an d th e copy of a letter hic he had addressed at the desi r e o f L or d M e lboue to the Pra rn Pro fessor, offering him the situation of Keeper of the Observat at Greenwich. He was rej o i ce d th a t th e pension b ad been h e granted, although the Prof essor wou ld b e a serious loss to t University of Cambridge. The vote was then agreed to. rteti The House then resumed, an d th e CHAIRMAN repo progress. The MASTER of the ROLLS o bt a ined leave to brillgi. in a Bill for investin g in Government Securities a Prti°ll o the cash lying unemployed in the Bank of England s beloa re r . ing to bankrupts' es t a t es , an d app l y i ng t h e interest t he and in discharge of the exp enses o f t h e C ourt o f Bankruptcy, 11, for the relief of the suit ors i n t h e sa id C our t. The 13'11 We brought in and read a fi rs t ti me , an d or d ere d to bo rea ds cond tie on Frida. On the motion of Mr. next E WART, the House adjourned at one o'clock. LONDON MARKETS. PRICE BREAD. lO L The highest price of Bread in thetropolis is &I. for theLl th De loc There are others who sell from a half-penny to three half-pc.'" that rate. PRICE OF S. Per Cwt. BEDS.—March I Per Quarter. St. Foin ...... ........... Rye Grass. Paci,y Grass ................... 4 A 9, 56§. ti,ved, for feeding Ditto, for sowing bo . Y.' Ditto, for crushing 66 6 - Canary B. VA "- 429 ' Hemp • Per Bushel , 041. White Mustard...... 7 5 . u "„,,' I I ( s. 111 ' Brown Ditto ......... 99. uw,„ Tares 7s. .- 4 .1 . t) ;30/. Foreign U. New English Red Clover42s, 555. FOs OU Ditto Ditto New Foreign Ditto —s. —s. —s. Old Ditto Ditto 425. 555. 66 5.. New White Clover 518. hBs. 755. Old Ditto Ditto New Trefoil ISs ‘.!its 225. Did Ditto —s. 14s. 17s Rib Grass 1(1s. Ifis 18s English Carraway —s 625. 665. Foreign Ditto —s. 60s. (Es Coriander —s. 14s, 16s. Rapeseed, biligh,h fine (per Las PRICES OF if It. .rat rockets (per cwt.) Choice ditto Kent Bags Sussex Pockets Superfine ditto lOPS.—March 16. (H ' 41 15s. s*. 12t. toC l. oa 6 O. 71. 06 to 01.51. 4'. 4i. 51. to 1' o'' 1.1, Os. 41. 10s, to 5•• 04 . s'. 53 51. 10. to WHITECH A PEL HAY MARKET.—March Clay JJs. Od. to 105 s t'd J Clover )5i Id. to Straw l:Ss 4'd to 425. Od. PRICE OF OIL I Oil, LILO° . Rape Oil, brown, per ton, 49i 10 a 51i. 08.—Linseec Linseed Oil Cake at the Mill, (10)0 , !I/. 10a —Rape Cake, Pet 1° PRICES Or LEATHER d tol A Per lb d. ! er lb. ;4 0 Crop Hides, 30 to 401 b. eac h 11 d. to 13 ' Horse Hides P , G e rman 4.. 0 jg li —:.-- 11 1 5,1 - Spanish **** i** 14- 50 6) Bull Hides lz 4O 511. ........... ...„ Butts, Vitriol English l4 24 !..--- 70 13...........• 0 ! j a i foreign Foreign Hides Dressing Hidesshaved .... l i2 l l 5 : - ) i n K a ip si s i. .............................. j 9 14 ......... f Best Saddlers Hides .................. .......... I Horse Hide?, English 14 19 . Shoulders ............ 5n ..... •If rounded 20. t o 4d per lb ore. PRICE OF TA 4 I I , s L . 0 0.1 ‘ . V, Ir S e1 0 1o A w P s , o . a 11 p e ............ 1 . 21 b ..., tl4: Town Tallow ......... s. Yellow Russia 'White ............ ----s. ltd . Curd. ........................... • ,6, .. 80:11) D WI ) —s. Od. Graves... ........................ ' t , ea Melting Stud' Ditto Rough l7s. Pd. tb PRICE OF RAW FAT, p er s t one o f Slb. pb- u Price of Tallow (as stated by the Tallow Melters) ***** PRICE OF The price of good Store Candles it Candies, per dozen, Fs. ; it: Sixpence per dozen CANDLES. ' the 'total: Shops is as f oll V ' ifeFior, 6s. od.—Moulds, discount for cash. COAL MARS Per Ton. i d Adair's Holywell lB t i Ditto Reins l5 6 Pon top Windsor l6 0 Pic ton l5 0 South Hartley Tantield West Hartley Willington l9 0 N,N• y I am walls End Bell and Brown Walls End tell, Robson & Co l7 9 Walls End Bewicke and Co 2O 0 Walls End Clark and Co. l7 3 Walls End Hotspur Walls End Heaton l9 9 Walls End Hilda lB 3 Walls End Killitnworth Ships Arrived since] :ET.—March 16. , Per Ton. 19 0 Walls End Newmarch ....... a• Walls End Riddell's ..••••••1 9 6 Wall End snd Waker ............ , Wal s E Hei: l on ........... 0 Walls End Lambton ....... ;.. ~ 14• ) Walls End Russell's Lion '". 6 Wal End Stewart 5,..... la • Dixon's Butterknowl .. '..19 / Walls End Adelaide ...... 9 Walls End Butterknowt .. 19 Walls End South Dur tratn..' . gl ails End Tees .......... 6 Howard's Netherton Main , . ▪ 0 6 Hartley . ..... .16 6 , ilistone Wilson - .......... 14 0 Walls End Prestun Grang e ", 19 6 Killingwortn ........... 15 Ord'a Itedhugh— ................ last market-day. 1 '• _ MEETINGS OF CREDITORS AT THE COI BASINGHALL-STREET, TO-MORR°Wr. - - (From-tire London Gazette) B. Parnham, sallmaker, 1114 l . 1-street, 5hadwe1.............................. J Bates, line—diaper, Bellevue-place, Clapham .................. ' - - - --- THE MERCANTILE SPORTSMAN.-- I heB t7i th story of a gentleman f rom H u ll, Wh o h unts o r did 10 0 - tea/ these hounds, and wh o was a l ways most ca pitally 11 1 ° Iit and always had a se rvan t out w i t h a secon d horse, "jay t had not the v er y b es t nerves f or f ences. C om ing "on e be r n' some slight rails plaeed in a gap, over which a 31 01.1 ,, 5 , the the field had hopped, h e d es i re d hi s groom t o puff $7 8 0 4 top-rail, which bein g e ff ec t e d h e turne d hi s horse rou x ' ; pre' taking him a few yards, prepared as if to charg.e, I ' l ' l oo tbe, viously to d o i ng so as k e d J o h n if t h ere was anyf - eing bit 0i other side. " N o thi ng , Si r ," rep li e d t h e ma n, " b ut „, y t h e a bush." " Well, then," said the master, "P'ol l w ; , bush," whi c h was e ff ec t e d...—. Nothin else ?" sa n g Sir' Nimrod: " you are s ure th ere i s no ,-, T g ?"—" 14 ° thin t replied the man, " a ll c l ear ." S t ill he hesitated. , t bere John, I think you may as we ll b rea k t h e secon d rail; ",. a sste, r " no hurry." J o h n , h a lf as h ame d at h av i ng s uch 3 Fi e cte" was obliged to comply ; when a fair breach being t e an ce the merchant charg e d, exc l a i m i ng to t h e fi r st a,equa l t - t ugly got alongside, "th ere was not hi ng lik e go ing quie- places !"—Kendal Mercury. _...!,--,-- . B 111 TIIS . On the 12th inst., at the Rectory Chilcomb, W-i° c . lie6tfr'ti l ie . lady of the Rev. G. Ch eere , o f a son . ai d Jes 13, On the 15th inst., in Lower Berkeley-street, Mrs. of four, of a daughter. ;Majo r V ie°' , On the 11th inst., a t Templemore, the lady of i b' the 56th Re g i men t, o f a son. , Fitig i On the 12th i ns t., i n Belgrave-square, the Hon. u rj " o f bon,_ of a daughter. a. ° 1541 On the 15th inst., i n P ar k -square, Regent's-Park, OO the Rev. F. On the 9th Finst L , att Hutton, hoe Parsonf a daughtee, Daresbury , s' r. heshir 6 .ag lady of the Rev. Charle s Dodgson, of a daughter. On the 13th inst., Mrs. Joh n Colling. of_Wobion-sclrre' of s% _ ...,1 MARRIED. On the 10th inst., at St. G eorge ' s I 1 'lsle of Man, 40%011, son of Henry Curwen, Esq., of Workington Hall, Ct tink e of 1 P - Dora, eldest surviving dau g ht er o f Lieut.-General Gloldle,r Nunnery, in that island. '_ On the 16th inst., at the house of Mrs. Ross , DED. Regent's-park, Elizabeth, onl dauhter of the late Sir "'- Gunning, Bart., of Horton, Northamptonshire. lunga ilife tl; On the 18th of October last,intht_ulsoorTank Tank, near_•.-i - j a i 7-, drowned, Cornet Arthur Edmund Oa ' kes, doing duty w il '''„ o f h ._: Regiment of Light. Cavalry, in his 18th year, youngest 0 . 7 9 „ 0 IT late Thos. Oakes, Esq., of Upper Seymour-street, Portman o 'ol On the 12th inst., in Conaught-square, William Jac ks° a t'..rc a ' On the 12th inst Mlr. T. E White, St. John's ., r. • . ere - , ot aged 52. : t Barker' On the 13th inst. Fulham, Mrs. Ann frar r i ° ' ~ at Davies-street, Berkeley-square. „ ogn. o. On the 9th inst., at Westport, Robert Patten, Es• I' ll heat , : upwards of 40 years a Magistrate of the county Mayo, a n the firm of R. Patten, S. 'Smth, and Co. 4ll. , kroo, On the 13th inst., Eliza Jackson, ' wife of Edward Ja c • to 27, at their residence, Portland-place, New Kent-road• E A,. li 6 On the 10th inst., at Paris, Susanna, eldest daughter 0 , '''-- II Joseph Bland, Esq., of Mincing-lane. aro 111 3 6: On the 13th inst., in Green-street, Grosvenor-Mel 14 ', 1 0,,, r. youngest child of Wm. Reginald Courtena.y:, Esq., a l ", /r . S. " On the 14th inst., in Wynyatt-street, Clerkenwei.,4t4i, year , ...:, Sustenance, formerly of Piccadilly, bookseller, in his 3 i, 14. 11 0 On the 4th inst., the Rev. Henry Longueville Mana e rs N ot 6 t, Cheer -1,, Rector of Cosgrove, Northamptonshire, and for rnanYluea_,,iaighao . active Magistrate for the counties of Northampton an /26, e i:sal• ; On the 11 th inst., in Queen-square, Bath, Charle N. o bliSr late of the Hon. East India Company's Bengal Medical merit, in his 73d year. 1 ° London: Printed and Published by MURD 0 , th e co 1 12, Strand, at The Sun Office, I\lo. 112, Strand , in of Middlesex. A WAA of e* MARIA ktty b t e 411141 F C , Co t of t tha as