The Sun. — London, England, 1816-05-24 00:00:00

•, IK-N „ART :4 L 11.1.174 hy , I 2 a" y Ntx • 140 USE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, MA' 23. 11r. BASTARD took the oaths and his seat for Devonshit e. The Bridlington Harbour Bill Report was re reievd, after some conversation bet‘veen Mr. Wortley, Mr. St. Paul, Sir M. W. Ridley, Sir C. Monck, Lord &c. Petitions were presented from, spirit-dealers at Greenock and o,,ltiorgh• The Committee on Irish 'Distillation was enlarged to 28 ilembers". A Petition was received from distillers in Tipperary. A Petition final cotton-manufacturers at Stockport was re ceived, Mr. HALL obtained leavito bring in a Bill to prevent the tlectrnction of sapnoea. Two Petitions were presented from places in Devonshire respecting tithes . , and were referr:d to the Committee. .Mr.lllltCH gave notice of a motion early in June respect- Lig the Trinity Corporation. PAYMENT OF TAXES. Mr. BROUGHAM pi : eSelited ka petition from some imiividual, complaining of the conduct of the In come Tax Commissioners. The SPEAXBRObserved, that it prayed'for a con sideration for a loss of money, which required the assent of the Treasury, which not being given, the petition was. withdrawn. General FERGUSSON adverted to the eircntn stances under which the income Tax was collected' in Scotland, and particularly specified the county of File, where many farmers had been compelled to pay their own tax and the landlord's tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, he understood, on 4otne representation made to him, had said, that nil Scotland was a year in arrears to this tax. He. »ientioned a case of great hardship upon a Gen tleman in Aberdeenshire, who had leased ota a sainiOn fishery at 1000/. a year, but was obliged to take it into his hands, and. for several years had not got aboye 1001. per annum for it ; yet the Commissioners insisted on rating it at 10001. R year he hoped that this mode of exacting tun ney, in the last moments of the existence of this tax, would tend to make its memory, detestable, so as to warn future Ministers against attempting s revival. The CHANCELLOR of the Exertrqusti said, be never made so broad a statement ; but only t ha' 'le believed Scotland was in arrears,and that be vvoukt make infinity into the subject mentioned to lt was never Wended that the operation of the tax 3lioultt be attended with any diSadvanta geous'circumstances in the North different from those in the South ; nor did he know why there was any peculiarity in its operation in Fife. What: ever evil had occurred must have arisen with the Commissioners, who were not appointed by Go vernment, but by act of Parliament. The Local Militia Bill was read a second time. Mr. BROUGHAM. observed, that great anxiety prevailed in the country about the mode in which the remaining port of the Income Tax was to he levied. lie wished to know what relief was in tended in Scotland, where people bad been coin , gelled, to pay with the allowance of only five days.' • The CHANCRLLOR of the txcnactuatt, intimat ed, that be shoultV propose that half should be paid in July, and to give the Condnissioners power to extend the time for paying the other half tilt the sth of January. Mr. BROUGHAM wished for information re. specting the practice of charging an ad valorem duty on carriages exported, which were fregnent ly private carriages, that ought no more to be charged than portmanteaus. The CHANCELLOR Of the Excßenueksaid, that there was a difference between private carriages and those exported as articles of merchandise. Mr. GORDON moved for aft account of the ex,- pence incurred, and .an estimate of the intended Expenditure, in the new Penitentiary-house.— Ordered. . _ copy of Campbell's memorial, praying re mutteratton from government, was presented. SLAVE-REGISTRY. Mr. HART DAVIS presented a Petition from a number of persons at. Bristol interested in the WeSt India Colonies against the Bill for regiitry of slaves. Mr. PROTHEIMS said, that many respectable pevsons who had signed this Petition were as great enertiies to the slave trade as any (3entlemau in that flouse. The Bristol merchants had hononr abv an d vo lu n tarily a bandoned the trade before the vote of the House abolished • Mr.I3ItOUGHM4 thought the conduct of the Bristol merchants very meritotiOns in ,doing this before Parliament made the trade a felony : but they certainly now showed great zeal on the sub jeet, which was rather mysterious. He could not see what immetliate interest they had in the West, India Islands. They might be consignees of 'West India produce,.and yet they came to the house us if they had lOcal interests to he affected by the Bill. lie hoped the discussion of the Bill would >tiut be postponed ninny days longer. Lord• .was desirous of knowing what course the Hon. Member (Mr. Wilberforce) itireoded to pursue, and whether he ihonglit it he quite consistent with his views to make sent' proposition on the subject this year. The fact was, that negociatious Were now carrying on with Foreign Powers which might be affected in various ways by the proposed measure. A regis try might he considered desirable, as giving in , formation' respecting the black population. He would suggest to the Hon. Member, that the ob ject, involving so many questions of importance, conld not be fully accomplished but by the co- Operation of the colonial legislatures. lie en tertained hopes that they would be led to see the wisdom of _some proper plan of registry, which Government meant to recommend strongly to the Local Legislature's. By :the systeM of re gistration now proposed, a great tax would fall on the islands.. The local assemblies, if they 'took tip ti:c business, conld do it at a third of the ex pence, and more effectually.' It was desirable to reserve questions Wilich interfered with the sepa rate rights of Jegisration, and which should be brought forward as rarely as possible. We could only act iii this Mattel' in a StlpelitllVlltlalg MISC. 11r t shMild show a disposition Cr, confide in the Aceinl3lii2.:": - We. Were fl ow negoehiting with Spain, the man inyortitat rower cut:hected with the question, and whose islands were so nmeh in termixed with our own. He had hopes that the Coionial Legislatnres wonid do something, and that the Hon. Member would decline to press his motion this year. He had inirted understood his oleket to be only :6 bring in the Bill this. Session, and get it printed, and then let. it lie over till next year, A delay in bringing it:,on could not be pre- Judicial to the lion. Member's objects. Mr. TATI.Oa recommended. the atloption of the . Noble Lord's suggestion, and stated his opinion that 'the West India Legislatures would be dis posed to do - rehat e ver lay in their power. . Mr. Wit.cer rottc could 'out refrain from oh serving, that he remembered too well, thit 1797, under all the pressing circumstances of the none of the colonial Assemblies, though erged by the most respectable persons in this coon try, and even by Government, adopted a single measure towards the object then desired-'--so little influence could be exerted' among them. The No tile Lord had certainly a right to make this appeal to him, and lie admitted the full force of it for the reasons he had assigned. He had not intended to press for more than the first reading this Session. It rvottid not make notch difference it) his ()bite!, if . he 110 W said that he would- bring it forward early next Session. He was aware, that it the colonial assemblies 'Were so disposed, they could attain • the object more really and substautially. lie would 'tot excite any debate at preient, thou 0i he might - .perhaps think that he c could form no sanguine expectations •fron) the colonial legisla tures. 'l'he circumstance of foreign negociatioos pending had kept him back so long. He was aware that the apprehended evils from bringing the mea sure for Ward might also attend a full discus sion of the subject. There were one or two .considerations respecting a registry that might possibly affect the negociat ions. Ile hoped, how ever,.that discussion on sonic points would be un avoidable. •Probably on that day se'netight, he might move for some papers that might lead •to discussion ; but he did not feel warranted in press ing the matter further this year, as it might iejtire the cause itself. He was 'obliged to say some-, • thing, as gentlemen who had read some pamphlets which had been published, might think him want . log in the common feelings of human beings, if he were to let the question pass by. According to what had been said of himself, he surely must' have some especial providence toanke care of hint, Or he must. have . been banged. before' now. Ile recollected a remark of Mr. Gibbon respecting some misrepresetitat iOns with which be Wes charg ed. He observed that he was not angry about it, for every animal had its note, or howl, or erv,..and its own modes of expression suited co different companies. It was muck the same with men:— . (Hear !) . _ _ The petition was orde're& to lie on the table. FINANCES. The CHANCIMLOR of the .EXCIFEQUER intimated, that on- Monday' he intended to take a review•of the general Ways and Means for the. service of the and mike sonic proposition respect ing advances from the Bank. Mr. GAIINFYLL observed;' that the transactions with the Ratrk would be a bonus of '25 per cent. to . the proprietors. • . EDUCATION.. Mr. I/63a, after some observations on the na tional sehools, moved an instruction to the Edit catiun Committee to consider what was fit to be done with the children of paupers begging in the streets, or carried about by their parents and others. Agreed CO. CIVIL LIST. Zr. TIMNRY hoped it was understood that the Civil List was to be .the first order of the day to morrow: tic intended to make a propusiziott re specting the application of the Dro s its to Le ex isting Debt of the Civit List, ► USURY LAWS. Mr. SerjeanLONst.ow rose, porsuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a pill to repeal the Usury Laws. Until the time 'of Henry VIII. there had been n 9 laws against Usury ; and bi det:id it was to him a matter of surprise how they could ever have been enacted. But it was asto nishing, to what extent the prejudice, agaiost tak ing interest for money lent, bad prevailed: Di• vines had in former times been particularly se vere in their abtise of Usury., one of them having said, that those who rook interest tor money were .dogs,:ntonsters, viper , and devils. (A laugh.) This prejudice evert extended to the Jntlres. who so late as the reign ot James I. had declared that to take interest for money Was infamous and criminal. In later times, My. Locke had given adthority against the Usury Laws . , by stating that it was as inipossible to fix the rate ot interest by law, as to fix the price of any com modity. There was also the authority of Air, Bentham positively against the expediency , nt these laWs. Experience,- too, proved that these. laws were perfectly inefficient. Dr. Adam Smith was of opinion that unless there was borne fixed rate of interest, there would he nothing but pro digals and . projecrors ; but this was completely 'refuted. by Mr. Beuthain. On the whole, he thOught that,the laws were founded- on the re mains of of - superstition—on a .. profound igtiolance of 'political economy.; that they were quite in efficient, as means were found to evade them, and productive of serious evil. He therefore moved forleave to bring in a Ltill,to repeal t hem. Tile CIWWELLOIt of the FAcnitsaueß.—A! Par liament had: horroWctl motley to the extent Pf 150,000,0001., it certainly, would' be a very unsafe experiment to repeal those laws under the opera tion of which these Loans had been effected. 'Tic amount of our public debt was so enormous,, and bad so extensive an infinenee on all the money `transactions in .the kingdoin,' that there was the strongest reason to ttoubt" whether altering: anV .part of the system under which the debt was con- Iraoted'would not have :the worst Consequences. The creditors of the State would certainly. have good reason to colaplain if the course was ,„,, v changed, and there: would he a want of equity and' gnod faith on the part of Parliament if it made such a change. The effect upon time public credit, too,--would be very injurious; not that lie would state this positively, but at leasi it ought not to be risked: It had been truly stated that the laws were evaded ; but Sill!, upon the whole, they served as a rule of direction. As to the hate cd by those laws, there was a ti me wue . ti. money could be obtained below the legal rate ; nor was ' there any reason to suppose that it was not a good medium rate upon the whole. Practically the al teration proposed by the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman would produce no advantage, and it would cause au uncertainty at first, would be very injerions. He therefore found it his duty tN move the previous question. Mr. BARING observed, that, the Chancellor of, the Ext.licqttet had said that the public credit would be affected by the repeal of the Usury Laws, but bad not pointed out how this effect could be produced. For ' his own part he did not see how it was possible that the repe rl should have this effect. It it was supooSed that the ets feet would be to cause some stock-holders to I withdraw their money froin the funds for the pur pose of having it laid out at interest on the secu rity of landed property, he thought such nil effect would he very beneficial. At present the lauded proprietors, not being able to get money at the legal rate, were obliged to have recourse to means to obtain trimmest at the rate of 16 or 12 per cent. He would not take up the time Of the, House-in describing the different modes of evading the law for the purpose of obtaining an exorbitant inte rest ; but be thought it would be proper to appoint a Committee to inquire I the subject. it seemed to be forgot thatGoVerment borrowed money at fi per cant. and at the same time regulated the Money market, while any rate above 5 per cent. was contrary to law. As to the motion now he fore the House, he dill feel some objection to it, an account of the time at which it was brought for ward, as owing; to a 'variety of causes the looney market was now in such a state, and money was so scarce, that mortgagees were calliag in their money. In a year or two he thought it very pro bable, that the circumstances which occasioned mortgage money to he dais called in, would pass away, and then a motion of this kind might be adopted. 'Oim this account he would feel it his duty to vote against the motion, although he agreed in the priu'ciple,- He thought great be . netits would result to commerce from the re peal of the usury laws. As 'a proof of this, he referred to experience, nod from what .was the case in those countries where - there were no usury laws, as Vin them the rate of in terest was lower than the legal rate in this country ; fOr instance, in Holland it was only 4 per cent. As to the present question, he would rather the motion, were favourably received by the House—that is e in such a way that it should not be Absolutely negatived, but rather deferred to some more propel , time. Mr. PRESTON opposed the motion, and reprov ed the infamous system of annuity 'transactions. Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended. that the argu mertts urged against the motion tended 'to prose its propriety. The means of evading the pressure of high rate of interest, which time laws were in tended to prevent, were more grievous than that pressure would prove if those laws did not exist. In a country like this, that hail flourished through commercial enterprize, it .would be sufficiently safe to let. the trader consult his own interest, which would be ',that of the country, without binding him by legislative enactments. Let .him procure money, us any other commodity, on the .. best terms he could, and the'real interests of the community would he consulte.d. It had been Said, would you depart froin the Statute Book ? But, if the Statute Book had never been departed from, by th'e side of the USUry.Lawi regul4tions against , Solerers would still be found in force. The ATTORNIIY-GENERAL said, that the real question was, whether the House should at once, at this period of the Session„ adopt a measure that would' produce such important alterations in Uhl money transactions, or whether, As it was pro. posed on the other side, - it should postpone. the consideration of it to a. time when it could be. properly investigated. It appeared to him that.. all the arguments used, by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, spewed the propriety of taking a due consideration of the subject under all its bearings.. He was not in a proper condition at present to giVe a decislie (volition either for or against the , continuance of the Usury Laws, 'but he should have no difficulty in voting for the previous (ion, in,order to obtain time for investigation. Mr. ARERCEOI4I4IB, supported the, motion. He agreed that in the first instance the measure might produce a great shock, and' perhapi,' even raise the,rate of interest ; hut he was convinced that it would ultimately and permanently ,decrease it. He suggested the propriety of introduciug into the Bill some provision-to protect those who had: al ready borrowed Money, against the first effect 'of the measure. The ATTORKEY-GmNERAL explained. Mr. PONSONBY thought the author of the pro posed measure entitled to the thanks of the com munity. He was convinced that the extravagance of many young men was much more destractive to them at present than if there .were no laws to regulate the rate of interest. Ile did not think it practicable to introduce any proviskon in the Bill, to protect those who Wad aleendy borrowed money, hut the measure itself would provide a remedy, because the mortgagee would have it in his power to give as good security as the mott gager.might hope to procure in any other quar ter. Ile wished the measure, however, not to be pressed on without due time for consideration. Mr. FINLAY supported the motion, but was anxious for inquiry upon the subject. Mr. 13, finnw objected to the Usury Laws, on the'grounri, amongst others, that persons of the best character were liable to violate them through ignorance, and must then sacrifice the money-they had lent, in order to preserve what was far dearer to them than Money ; their, reputation. If Usury Laws were to exist, they ought to-be made so plain that he..who ran might read. He coincided entirely with the sentiments of the Honourable and Learned Geatleman who- had brOught the measure before the House. The ATTOIINEY,GENERAL, and Mr. Sn,w mu tually explained. After Some ohserrat,iona from Mr. MART2N, 1411(1 General THORNTON, Sergeant ONSLoW re plied, and moved for leave to withdraw his tun tlon, giving notice, that at a future period be should bring nn the metoure, when he hoped for unanimity, Tt:e motion Was filen A6tEadrAwn, as Ise Chantellor of the tixcneqw 'well RS that of t for the previous question. PROTESTANTS IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE. Sir S. ItaisalLLY could have wished that the task he had undertaken had devolved upon abler hands; lint as no other Member had taken up the subject, he thoualst it would have been much to be la mented. had the Session been suffered to termi nate without its being brought under the notice of the House: Various reports bad been spread abroad of the cotnmission of acts of cruelty .in the South of France, which had made a deep im pressing upon the 'country. Subicriptions had' accoraiogly been taken Up, and Meetings beets held to consider of the best means of affording relief' to the unhappy sufferers. /t appeared, how ever, afterwards, that these meetings had beets thought improper by Ministers, and a check had been given to them. That had • chiefly been , owing to a letter of the Duke of Wellington, in which it was stated, that every possible stepbad been taken by the French Government, to pre vent and put a stop to the persecutions of the Protestant's, and to secure them in the enjoyment , of their religious rights, and that the public its • this country should not lightly interfere. The. Common Council of London had voted an address" to the Prince Regent on thiS subject, which had' been graciously received, but the answer was, that there was no ground to interfere on the part of this Government. lie did not mean to crimi nate, Ministers, nor did he believe that bad they known the state of the case, and the conduct of the French Government, a conduct so odious and" detestuble, they would have disguised the evcao that lfifil taken place. .VI that he imputed to them was, an over-credulity to the representa tions of the French Government. Ile made that statement from no party motive ; but in, conse quence of . 1 - 4CtS he had learned from persons near the scene, and from letters received from that spot. After all the pains he had taken upon this subject, lie could see no danger from a 1110(100 of this na ture, though it had been asserted that mischief might arise from it to the party meant to be yea lieved. But he was unable to sec how it could by possibility be injurious to the suffering partY , however it might he annoying to their persecu tors. The letter of the, Duke of Wellington hall struck the Protestants with consternation, as it tended to deprive them of their last hope. Wretch ed, indeed, must the situation of the sufferers be, if British sympathy was injurious to their cause. But aothing, was so likely to afford them security, and for a short time the manifestation of opinion by theßritish public bad been attended with that effect. It was important to know if the persecution bad been owing to political or religious motives, and if the French Government had afforded protects lion to the sufferers. In the department of La Garde, the most melancholy events bad taken plates though be was far from maintaining:that any ge neral persecution of the Protestants bad taken place throughout France. The situation a that part of France at the restoration of Louis XVIU. had been of a particular nature. That was the , first part where the doctrines of Protestanism hack appeared even prior to the reformation itself,' amidst the mountains of the Cevennes. The fold! 14wers of these opinions had remained unmolest• eft till the time of the reformation; when they ::United with the followers of Luther. The Press* . dent of Aix passed upon them a sentence of con deamation,•their villages were destroyed, and the - first blood was sited at the end of the reign of Francis First. The effects of that persecution spread thethselves over all Fiance, in the wars of the Huguenots, till, by the Edict of Nants, their religious liberty was fully secured. .At Nismes, a majority of the inhabitants at that time were Protestants. In 1685, the Edict d • Nato; was revokes by Louis Fourteenth, ed by his .Mitiister Louvois. The mode or conversion then adopted was by means of fira'„ goons, and it was reported to Louis, that all France was Catholic. Atterwards the Protestants wet c proceeded against, not simply as Protestants , • • but as relapsed heretics. Under the operation of that system, they continued till 1787, two yeah before the revolution, all found in a Protestant meeting being liable to lie sent to the gallies and in a memorial to the French Ministry, it 'watt stated; as a proof of clemency and forbearance's • that only eight Protestant Ministers had been hanged from 1745 to 1770. Government could take away their children, and a child of the age 00 seven years could adopt the Catholic faith. The marriage of Preoestants Were annulled, and the hus band was sent to the gallies. Louis XVI. was de sirous of amelioratingtheirunhappylot, and his Ali nisters were eagerto second his views .but prevented. by the catastrophe, which all must deplore. The first act of theaevolution bad been to relieve tho' Protestants, and a Protestant was elected presia dent of the national assembly. It was natural for them to adhere to a revolution, from which they received such advantages, though all that bad been said as to their, being Buonapartists was tin` founded. When the revolution bad degenerated into acts of tyranny, under the name of Janos': the Protestants no longer approved of it, and no' Protestant bad voted for the death of the Kingt. except with the limitation (which the believem the most likely way to save his life) of an aptle ol to the people. 94it of 130 guillotined at one time by Roberspierre. 100 were Pi otestants. Thep. polittion of Nismes was 45,000, of which 30, 00 were Catholics, and the test Protestants. b May, 1790, some acts. of violence had taket)' place betwixt the adheveats of the two religionts' and in the earlier period of the revolution; but . nothing of the kind had occurred after 1790. - " .. . In the year 1802, Buoneparte pieced the Prod'. tesjanta upon the same tooting with the Car tholics ; that had been telt by them as 'a great bv netit, their gratitude for which could not be blamed, though the persecution against theta seemed to have proceeded a priori, upon the gar position that they must be attached to Buonapart" front the benefit he had f conferred upon them. 1 " tier Protestant had been appointed commandant ac Prefect of a department, and they only tilled sob' ordinate offices. No peculiar favour had Wl' shewn to the Protestioits, as they were, o"it . placed on an equal footing c, itti the Catholic' - In April, 1814, Louis the Eighteenth was r" -.- stored, at which time Buonaparte had hecom* odious to the Protestants at Ntsnr.s, osl l 146 A to in other planers, from. their being' -