The Sun. — London, England, 1835-08-22 00:00:00

IMPERJ..AL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OP LORDS, Aucusr 21. ROYAL ASSENT. At five o'clock the Earl of Shaftesbury, Viscount Dun- Gannon, and Lord Glenelg, the Commissioners appointed to give the Royal Assent under the Great Seal, having taken their scats on the Woolsack, Sir Augustus Clifford, Yeoman Ush , :r of the Black Rod, was directed to summon the House of Commons to the Bar. Shortly afterwards e Speaker, attended by a large body of Members of the T House of Commons, having made their appearance, the Corn -mission was read, and the Royal Assent given in the usual form to the following Bills :—The Tea Duties' Bill ; the Foreign Post Bill ; the Government Securities ; the Public Roads (Ireland) Bill ; the Assizes Removal ( Ireland) Bill ; the Ecclesiastical Revenues Bill ; the Linen Manufactures (Ireland) Bill ; the Sheriffs' Decla ration Bill ; the Voluntary Enlistment of Seamen's Bill ; the Vexatious Removal of Indictments Bill ; the Loan Socie ties Bill ; the Small Debts (London) Bill ; the Grand Junction Water Works Bill; the Exeter Water Works; Aber aven Railway; Truro Improvement; Bognor Improvement; Oxford Road; Bodmin Road; and several other private Bills. Lord SEGRA VE presented a petition from the borough of Stroud, in favour of the great Western Railway. Messengers from the House of Commons announced that that House agreed to the Bill passed by their Lordships, en titled Malpas's Divorce Bill ; and that they had also passed the Belfast and Cavehill Railway and other Bills, to which they desired the concurrence of their Lordships. MUNICIPAL REFORM. Petitions against the Municipal Reform Bill were presented by Lord DYNEVOR and other Noble Lords ; and by Lord FARNHAM, against the Irish Municipal Bill. And in favour of the Bill, by Viscount DUNCANNON, Lord SHADBROKE, and other Noble Lords. ISLINGTON MARKET BILL. Petitions against the Islington Market Bill were presented by the Duke of RICHMOND from farmers and graziers occupy ing several thousand acres of land in the neighbourhood of the metropolis. IRISH TITHE BILL. Petitions against this Bill were presented from several places in Ireland by Lord Farnham, Lord Wharncliffe, and several other Noble Lords. NEW SOUTH WALES. The Duke of RICHMOND begged to ask the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, whether he had any objection to lay on the table any documents connected with the state of the persons transported to New South Wales? Lord GLE NE LG had no objection to do so. TONNAGE ADMEASCREMENT BILL. On the motion of Lord AUCKLAND, this Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. On the motion of the Earl of DEVON, the Weights and Measures Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com mitted on Monday. MILITIA STAFF. On the motion of Viscount DUNCANNON, the Militia Staff Reduction Bill was read a third time and passed. TITHE ON TURNIPS. The Duke of RICHMOND moved that their Lordships be summoned for Monday next, on the second reading of this Bill. Lord ASHBURTON hoped the Bill would not be pressed this Session, as the principle was of a very objectionable na ture. The Duke of RICHMOND defended the principle of the Bill, as the decision of some of the Courts of Law which were in favour of the clergy men were altered by circumstances of very great hardship to the agriculturists of England. The decisions had excited very considerable alarm, and it was ne cessary the law upon the subject should be set at rest. Lord ROSSL YN objected to the Bill. The Earl of WICKLOW said in Ireland the Courts of Law would not recognise any claim for tithes which was not founded upon custom and usage. The Bill was one of great importance, and he hoped it would be postponed, to give their Lordships time to consider its details. The Earl of DEVON thought the decision of Lord Lynd hurst alluded to was rather extraordinary, but time should be given to look over the Bill. The Duke of RICHMOND would not consent to postpone the Bill to next Session, but if it would suit the convenience of the Noble and Learned Lords opposite, he should take the discussion on Wednesday next. Lord ASHBURTON pointed out at some length the ob jections to the Bill, which he contended would be an in fringement on the rights of private property. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY thought the discussion at this stage was premature, and the conversation dropped. Mr. BERNAL and others from the Commons, brought up the Cessio Bonorum and other Bills, to which the House of Commons desired their Lordships' concurrence. The Bills on the table were advanced a stage, and the House then adjourned to Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Atrausr 21. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock. ORANGE LODGES. The Sergeant -at-Arms appeared at the Bar, and on being called to the table, stated that in pursuance to the SPEAKER'S warrant, he had proceeded to the house of Colonel Fairman, for the purpose of taking him into custody, but had not been able to secure him. He had left two officers at the House who watched alternately, but up to the present mo ment they had been unable to take him into custody. On the motion of Sir J. Y. BULLER, the Tormohan Im provement Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. RUTHVEN presented a petition from Downpatrick complaining of the conduct of several of the magistrates of that part of the country. TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from the parishes of St. Margaret's and St. John's, Westminster, praying for a Repeal of the Taxes on Newspapers. As the Hon. Member for Lincoln had a motion upon the subject for that evening, he should not make any observations upon the prayer of the peti tion. Also a petition from Robert Dawson of Birmingham, complaining of the unequal distribution of land in New South Wales.—Referred to General Darling's Committee. THE FACTORY BILL. Mr. AG L lONBY presented a petition from the operatives of Preston complaining of the working of the present Factory Bill, and praying that the time of labour might be limited to ten hours. The petitioners also complained of statements made by Mr. Richards, one of the Factory Commissioners, which they represented as very exaggerated.' TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE. Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition from an individual, named James Marsh, praying for an alteration in the law of patents. He had also a petition to present from John Cleave, the individual whose type and presses bad been seized for selltng unstaciped papers ; but as the Right lion. the Chan cellor .4f th , ! I .:xchequer was not in his place, he ( Mr. W.) should defer presenting it till Monday next. Mr. T. KEMP presented a petition from 188 respectable inhabitants of Brighton, praying for a Repeal of the Taxes on Knowledge, Sir .1. BECKETT presented a petition from 600 inhabi tants of Leeds, praying that no Bill might pass for the aboli tion of local Ecclesiastical Courts in England. Mr. TOOKE presented a petition from Truro most res pectably and numerously signed, praying that the Municipal Corporation Bill ►night pass in its original shape, and that that House would stay the granting of the remaining supplies until the Bill had received the Royal Assent, as the only means of preventing the most disastrous results.--( Hear.) Mr. WI LK S presented a petition from the Baptist Dis senters of Burton Latimere, complaining of the conduct of the Protestant curate and churchwardens of the parish, in refusing to admit the Dissenting clergyman, the Rev. David Reece, to the churchyard, to perform the funeral ceremony over one of his deceased perishioners. KERRY ELECTION. Mr. SC ARL ETT said he had a most important petition to present from the County of Kerry, complaining of the most extraordinary violation of the freedom of election in that county upon a late occasion—intimidation which was so ex cessive as to preclude the parties from applying for the redress they might have had under the Grenville Act—the intimidation did not consist of open violence, but was worked much more . insidiously by means of the Clergy. They worked upon r a t he was afraid he must call the superstitions of the people, for political purposes. He would proceed to read the petition, R 3 it spoke in more forcible language than he (M: S.) could use. Every one who would vote for the Kni7 l :‘ of Kerry should have a death's head and cross bones pa'.at'etl on his door. Da niel O'Connell, Esq., had rece , Amended exclusive deal ing, and that all who voted for Mr. M. Fitzgerald should be shut out from society: Several priests denied the rites of baptism and hurial to all who should do so, and others denounced them from the altar.—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. and Learner?. Member proceeded to say that to this petition were appen , :ted the names of every Protestant free holder of the cour.ty of Kerry, and those of several very re spectable Ronw, l Catholics, as well as the great body of the MagistrE,es. They offered to prove every allegation by the mr'st correct and undoubted evidence, and added that it was not their fault that they had not been proved akesiy, as they entertained a hope that this case would have been taken into consideration by the Intimidation Committee, and they had only lately understood that by a resolution of that Committee they could only examine two witnesses in each case. Two witnesses had been produced, and they had com pletely substantiated several allegations in the petition, parti cularly those which represented the Hon. Member for Dublin to have spoken in the way they had described at a public meeting in Tralee. With these observations he would leave the case in the hands of the House, in the hope that in the next session such a remedy would be proposed, as the nature of the case imperitmsly demanded. The Hon. and Learned Member then 'presented a petition from the Knight of Kerry, to the sam-, eff ect . Mr. ORD said that as reference had been made, something in tbe nature of a compliment, to the Committee of which he was Chairman, he felt called upon to offer some explanation. He felt it due to them, as far as regarded the Committee, that there was at all events no foundation for any complaint of their proceedings. He must, in the first place, refer to the Report of the Committee which was now lying upon the table of the House, in which the Committee had endeavoured to show to the House the nature of the . inquiry that had taken place before them, and to disclaim on their part any intention to make the Committee a means for personal charges. It was rather the object of the Committee to Obtain such evidence as would enable the House to institute some remedy for what had taken place. On taking into consideration the question of bribery, all charges against particular indivi duals were thrown on one side, and only those indivi duals we're selected to c evidence who cc id j oi.ut out general acts of bribery on both sides. With regard to the limitation of the evidence upon the ease of Kerry to two witnesses, it was impossible for the Committee, consistent with the rule they had laid down, to go into the case of Kerry, as long as an inquiry was pending on the subject. The Commit tee postponed taking into consideration many cases with resn ,, ct to different parts of Ireland on that ground. As soon 6it was known the proceedings had dropped, the Committee or dered the attendance of the Inspector of Police; a good deal of the evidence of that individual referred to the county of Kerry ; but in consequence of the witnesses becoming so nu merous, the Committee felt it necessary to limit its enquiry to those who would give them general information on the sub ject. The Knight of Kerry had stated his desire to have all his witnesses heard, but the Committee thought that, consi dering the state of parties, it would be impossible for them to hear all the witnesses. [The SPEAKER was here summoned to the House of Lords, and on his return, enumerated the Bills which had received the Royal assent, for which see our Lords' Report.] Mr. ORD resumed ; the allegation contained in the petition had not only not been proved, but had actually been disproved before the Committee. It was, however, for the House to say whether the petition contained allegations of sufficient importance to send the whole matter before a Committee. He felt that it was strange the parties should state, that in consequence of the intimidation which had pre vailed they had been unable to take advantage of the Gren ville Act, and yet should now offer to give information before a Committee of that House. He moved that the debate be adjourned. Mr. O'CONNELL would only say that a more gross, a more scandalous petition, had never been presented to that House.—[The Hon. Member threw the petition on the table, apparently much excited.] Mr. JACKSON said that he had served upon the Com mittee of which the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ord) was Chairman, and he felt bound to corroborate the statements made by that Hon. Gentleman. It was clear that that Com mittee could not afford any redress. Mr. O'CONNELL rose to order. If the question was to be debated—let it b e so . H e h a d only said one word upon the motion of adjournment. The debate was adjourned till Tuesday next. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House at its rising do adjourn until to-morrow. THE RECORDER OF DUBLIN. Mr. HUME had given notice that he should submit a motion to this House, with a view to obtain a certain letter book respecting Orange Lodges, which was a document of great importance ; but he understood that the person in whose custody that book was said to be, was not to be found. He therefore could not with any effect or propriety proceed with his motion, but could only leave every man to form his own judgement of the case.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He should now proceed to present a petition from the bankers, merchants, and citizens of Dublin, signed by 20,000, complaining of the learned Recorder of that city, who was now in his place in the House ; and although the accusation on which it was founded originated in some alleged speech at a private meeting, which he considered a matter of small importance, yet he could not acquit himself of the duty required of him without laying before the House the statements of the petitioners. In the first place, they agreed to this petition at a most numerous meeting of the inha bitants, and they declared themselves to be what he hoped every man in the country was, anxious for the reform of the institutions of the state. On a late occasion, the Learned Recorder, delivered a speeck at a meeting, which speech was reported by several newspapers friendly to him, and contained words which were worthy of particular atten tion—they were to the following effect:—" Our opponents are not to be despised, because they are active ; they are restless in their conduct, and infidels in their belief, and desirous of nothing but change." He had inquired into the facts represented, and was certain that they would be established clearly at the bar of the House. There was an ',; on . Member present who had designated him and the Mem ber for Bridport as avowed infidels, so that such language was not singular. They stated that the ofieial character of the chief officer rendered such conduct r.ot only dangerous to the liberty of the citizens, but it was contrary to the spirit of the law ; and that judges might always to be impartially just, whether of Orange or Radical, or any other party whatever. The House must see that, if a Judge of the land, before whom Jurors were assembled, designated them as infidels, and gave them all those characters which he so liberally bestowed upon others, would they not appear before him tainted with these allegations? If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would only change places—(Great laughter)—there was no one in that House who could more ably show the impolicy of such con duct.—( Hear, hear.) The petitioners further stated that his sitting in that House was incompatible with his duties as a Judge, and that, therefore, as regarded the due administration, they prayed that the House would institute an inquiry with a view to place them in a si tuation to obtain equal justice.—( Hear, hear.) It was for the Government to consider whether such a state of things was any longer to continue. This was not the first time he had expressed his opinion on this subject, and it was not his fault that the Hon. and Learned Member was now a Member of that House. He had endeavoured to introduce an Act to prevent Judges sitting in that House. The House did not think with him, and he had yielded to the majority ; but he thought that the majority was wrong, as it had been on many other occasions. —(Great cheering from both sides of the House.) The petitioners complained that they were aggrieved by the inefficient, irregular, and unsatis factory manner in which the Recorder performed his duty, and this, they said, was owing to his attendance in Parliament. They did not deny the Hon. and Learned Recorder's capacity or talent, but they complained of his having a seat in the House of Commons, and that whilst he attended that House he could not, as a Judge, administer justice in his Court. As long as he was allowed to sit in that House, and he (Mr. H.) knew from experience how long and how often the Hon. and Learned Recorder did sit—(Hear)—to that extent the course of justice was impeded—the subjects were deprived of what they were entitled to—a regular administration of justice, and in his opinion the Government was to blame for allowing it. They state further that the predecessors of the Hon. Gentleman used to sit regularly every week, but since the Hon. and Learned Gentleman became Recorder, a different course had been adopted...—(Hear, hear.) Whether this were the practice of his predecessors or not was of little importance. The only question he wished to bring be fore the House was, whether it was fit and proper for a gentleman acting as a Juslge to be allowed to absent himself from time to tirn2, so long as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman is known to do. He (Mr. H.) considered this complaint to be perfectly well founded. The peti tioners stated that they were informed and believed that this practice was contrary to the opinions of the most intelligent of the local magistrates. And what were the consequences that arose from this? A delay of justice ; and they further stated, that the most unjustifiable oppression was inflicted upon many innocent persons. They claimed from the House that which was agreeable to the rights of every individual, that no such delay should take place. He ( Mr. Hume) concurred in this prayer. The Hon. and Learned Recorder must concur in it. If he divested himself of the character of judge, and put himself in the place of one who came to be tried, how would he like to be detained for weeks, nay, for months longer than he ought to have been. They further state that several prisoners have been held over from month to month ; that the judicial business had been interrupt e d ; an d they o ff ere d t o p rove t h a t thi s was in consequence of the Recorder taking part in the business of the nation. The office of Recorder was in its nature incompatible with the duties of a Member of Parliament, and in this he entirely concurred. Could anything be a stronger appeal to the House than that? If by any act of the Judge, the very sources of justice were poi soned, nay even open to suspicion, he would not say it did take place, but if it was open to suspicion, the House was bound to administer relief without delay.—( Loud cheers. ) There was now but one point more that he felt it necessary to notice; the petitioner stated that the Judges of the Superior Courts in Ireland, and the Master in Chancery —(he was sorry to say it was not the case in this country)—the i2ominissioners of the Insolvent Court and the Recorders of all towns in Ireland were excluded from having a seat in Parliament.—( Cheers.) If such was the case, it w" -s for the Right Honourable Gentleman to state how it had occurred that his case was an exception.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Hume) thought the subject was one well worthy of consideration.—( Hear.) If the appointment rested with his Majesty's Government, he should say they had no excuse. Unfortunately however the appointment rested with the Cor poration of Dublin, and such a Corporation it was—(Great cheering) —a Corporation in his opinion totally unfit to be the individuals to select a Judge.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) The petitioners further stated that the election being by the Corporation, it afforded strong temptation to men of reckless ambition to pander to the party who bad appointed him, by holding a seat in Parliament. The Right lion. Gentleman was a religious man, and no doubt had often repeated the Lord's prayer. He would, there fore, recollect that part which said, " Lead us not into tempta tion."—( Cries of " Oh, oh," especially from Dr. Nicholl.) Mr. HUME—Does the Hon. and Learned Doctor mean, to deny the justice of that quotation ?—( Cheers.) Dr. NIC HOLL—I mean to deny the necessity of it. Mr. H U3lE—That only showed the difference of opinion. He had thought it right to notice it, and further to state that in the discharge of a public duty, and more especially in the man who was to be the supporter of the purity of virtue, as little temptation as possible should be given. The Hon. Gentle man concluded by stating that the subject was one well worthy the consideration of his Majesty's Government and the House at large. SEIANV said that he had very little to complain of in this petition, as far as he had been able to collect it ; perhaps the House would be surprised to hear that he had never had an opportunity of seeing the petition. Mr. HUME remarked that the petition was printed in every paper in Dublin. Mr. SHAW thought the usual courtesy from one Member to the other had not been shewn to him. Mr. HUME rose amidst loud cries of " Order." Mr. SHAW said the Hon. Member had brought the charge against him with great pomp and solemnity. He had no doubt but that many of the people out of doors-- of whom the Hon. Gentleman was supposed to be the Repre sentative—he had no doubt but that they were much amused at the attacks made upon him, especially as they knew he had formed one of the minority of that House, holding opinions advcrse to those of the majority, who for the last few weeks had been so mercifully administering the judicial func tions of that House.—(Laughter from the Tory side of the House.) The charge against him was that he had made a speech, the objectionable parts of which he denied.—.(A laugh.) The next was that he was Recorder of ard at the same time bad the honour of a seat in that , Douse.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman hid informed the House that the petition was signed by bankers, merchants, ar.d others. He was informed—he had not seen the petition,—but he was informed from Dublin that the manner in whirh were obtained was this; it had been sent roiind tts all the public houses on the Saturday night, where the wages were paid to the labour-en, and they were compelled to sign the petition,--( Hear, hear.) Not contented with that, on the Sunday it w as sen t t o every chapel door, rrtl one was ailowed to enter the chapel, poler.! h either signed the peti tiod, or got som e o ne nto it for him. It reminded him of the petition Got up upon the occasion of the Dublin election, when Emir sixteen to eighteen boys were seen rov,4nd the chapel door, every one of whom signed thefe.k. rtition, and as soon as they had gone through, tht 1 1 ,1'Si one began again, and continued so for severe hours.—(A laugh.) Such was the mode in which names were obtained to these petitions. He would not go int o th e quest i on as to whether or not the prig=ciple was good, that those engaged in the admln,istfatidri justice should not take an active part in velitiVak affairs. With respect to the language imputed CO hilb in the petition, he could only repeat what he fwni stated before, that he did not use the expressions aaaigned to him. He said this in perfect recollection of what he had uttered. He would repeat what he did say. The lion. Member had charged him with stating that all those opposed to him in politics were revolutionists s and infidels in religion. He had before denied to the n 6 ", Gentleman that he had ever said so, and he therefore felt bound to ob serve , t h at t h e con d uct of 'Ail!: Hon. Member was uncandid, and contrary to the COhrse usually pursued in this House. The Hon. Member, however, might not be able to understand the difference between the language which he teally used and that which he (Mr. Hume) imputed to him. What he (Mr. Shaw) really did say was, that the party opposed to good order, the settlement of property, and the permanence of the institutions of' the country, would be always joined by the desperate in condition, the indifferent in religion, and the revolutionary in politics, in the support of some of the measures that had been brought forward.—( Hear, hear.) He had said so a hundred times before, and he continued to think so still; and notwithstanding the fear of the Hon. Member before his eyes, he should continue to think and speak as he had previ ously done.—( Hear, hear.) This was what he had stated, and it had been grossly misrepresented. Mr. HUME— It is the same thing.—( Cries of " Order.") Mr. SHAW was astonished that the Hon. Member did not see the difference.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Shaw) did not charge any one, but allud e d t o w h at was likely to be the union of parties. The Hon. Gentleman, perhaps, did not think that there was an infidel or a revolutionist in the country. If the Hon. Gentleman did not understand the matter when put in a logical form, he would endeavour to put it in another way, so that, if possible, the Hon. Gentleman might comprehena it. He would, therefore, tell the Hon. Member that if there were such a person in the country as an infidel, that he would always be found on the same side in polities as the Hon. Gentleman. —(Hear, hear.) With respect to his being a judicial cha racter, he would not enter into the argument as regarded the principle. If he were called upon to give an opinion on the abstract principle, probably he should give one favourable to the view taken by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He had never on any occasion wade his judicial duties subservient to political or any other considerations.—( Hear hear.) He had faithfully adhered to this.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member said that his ( Mr. S's) Court sat but seldom : now if he (Mr. Hume) had referred to the Irish almanac, he would have seen 12 specific periods, at certain intervals, appointed for the sittings of the court. Any one, by referring to this document, could tell on what day the court sat ; no inconvenience could therefore arise in that respect to any suitor or practitioner in the court. He would add that he had never, on any one occasion, been in his court one hour after that which had been .appointed. When he was app o i nte d R ecorder of Dublin he found a great ar rear of business, notwithstanding his predecessor—who, how had only held the office for a short time—sat every fortnight. This was five years ago, and he had made great exertions in clearing away the arrears, and had at last suc ceeded in doing so. Since that time, not one single case could fairly be said to be in arrear for a sitigle hour, not withstanding the assertions of the Hon. Member.—( Hear, hear.) He denied that constantly sitting, or sitting oftuer than lie did, would be for any:good purpose, or for the public convenience. Certainly it would not be so for either grand or petty juries or prosecutors, and the utmost time that a prisoner could remain in custody before trial was a month, but the average time did not exceed a fortnight.• When ever he passed sentence, he always commenced the term of imprisonment from the period before trial at which the pri soner was committed. He would not trouble the House at greater length, nor would he touch upon the general princi ple so much dwelt on by the Hon. Member, but he would only observe, that he trusted that as long as he held the judicial office he now possessed, he should continue to enjoy the same degree of confidence of his fellow-citizens which he now possessed. —( Hear, hear.) He had abstained from attending political meetings, and should continue to do so. Independ ently of his own elections, he had only on one occasion at tended on the hustings at a contested election, and that was when a friend of his, who was a candidate for Dublin, was ill and unable to attend for himself. If the Hon. Member expected that he (Mr. Shaw) would sacrifice his political in dependence, in consequence of the course adopted by the Hon. Gentleman, he was very much mistaken, for as long as he continued in a judicial office, he should act with the same independence that he had hitherto done.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL would not go into the question as to one person exercising judicial and political functions. He agreed that the question should not be made a personal matter, but a general measure, excluding all holding judicial offices from the House. Mr. RUTH VEN supported the prayer of the petition. Mr. JACKSON contended that the character of his Right Hon. Friend stood too high to be affected by such charges as were contained in the petition. It should be borne in mind that the meeting, called upon the written request of the Hon. Member for Dublin, founded its proceedings on the report of a speech which his Hon. and Learned F r iend had repudiated over and over again. The meeting was attended by coal porters, who went armed with bludgeons and bayonets, and who forcibly prevented Protestants from entering. A few who did get in were set upon by these ruffians, and severely beaten and wounded. He had received letters from some of the medical men of Dublin, who informed him of the wounds from which those who were maltreated on that occasion were suffering. Could that be called a free expression of the sen timents of the people of Dublin, which was dictated by the Dublin coal-porters, by paupers, and the very scum of the earth ?—( Hear, hear, and oh 0 He did not assert that there were not som e ver y respecta bl e names attac h e d to t h e peti tion ;it was said there were—he knew nothing of them ; but this he did know, that if there had been anything like free discussion at the meeting, the issue would have been a very different one. Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, that the evil complained of was in the system. All these inquiries tended to show that it was essential the two characters, the judicial and the political, should not be blended.—(Hear, hear.) He should attach no importance to the petition net being signed by the merchants and bankers of Dublin ; but if 20,000 of the coal-porters, and scum of the ear th a ll u d e d to by the Hon. arid Learned Ser geant had signed it, he should say that they were the very persons who h a d a r i g h t to comp l a i n , i nasmuc h as it was of great importance to them who presided over the criminal courts of justice. It was not your merchants who were ar raigned at the criminal bar, nor your bankers ; it was those men whose miseries engendered crime. He did not think the Hon. and Le ar n e d G ent l eman was c h arge d w i t h d e l aying jus tice; but it was said that his attendance in the court and the discharge of his Parliamentary duties were incompatible. Having taken his departure to attend to his judicial business in Ireland—having possessed himself of a place in the mail, and thrown himself into a steam-packet, and arrived in Dublin as hot as the steam itself—(Laughter) —it might be imagined that he called for the calendar, not a little anxious to dis cover its length and see what could be deferred, frowned at the jury for their delay, and at last begged all the parties, for God's sake, to expedite the business, to allow him to re turn to London, and vote in the division which was to take place the day after to-morrow—(Laughter)—otherwise he might lose the place of a judge, or the benefit of making a speech. —( Laughter.) He hoped the rule would be applied generally of not allowing Recorders scats in Parliament. But if they were not to have Recorders in the House of Commons, he thought they ought not to have law judges in the House of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) Did they not find this, that all who had been or who were now judges were the most troublesome of the politicians in the other House ?—( Laughter and cheers. ) He would in the same manner deal with the Bishops ; letthem be called on for their opinions only on matters connected with the Church.—( Cheers.) His belief was, that if they got rid of all the Bishops and all the Law Lords, the gain to the po pular party would be great numerically, and equal to what was necessary.—( Cheers and laughter.) Mr. JACK SON did not mean to describe those who signed the petition as coal-porters and the scum of the earth ; the fact was, he had not read a single signature. This observa tion applied to those who went armed with bludgeons to the meeting.—( Hear, hear.) Sir H. HARDINGE should regret that the principle of ex cluding Judges from Parliament were adopted, because it would deprive them of the advantage of the talents of the lion. and Learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Dr. Lushing ton), who, on great questions of foreign policy, was univer sally admitted to be an eminent authority. Sir. RONA YNE could tell the Hon. and Learned Ser geant, that to his knowledge many of those who had signed the petition were as respectable as he was, or as the Hon. and Learned Recorder. Mr. HUME replied. The lion. and Learned Gentleman opposite had alluded to the mild, merciful, and just majority on his side of the House; but what had that to do with the question? Unfortunately for the country, Hon. Gentlemen opposite had been too long in a tyranical and most overbear.. ing majority. What the petitioners required was, that every week the Criminal Court in Dublin should be open : their complaint was, that once a month was not frequently enough. As to the report of the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman not being correct, he had heard the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's explanation, and he could not help thinking, that if were put upon paper it would appear the same as the report. Mr. O'CONNELL said that he wished to make one or two observations, understanding that it had been stated by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite that he wrote to Dublin to " 1 induce the people to get up this petition. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was totally misinformed ; he never wrote to Dublin on that subject. A meeting was in the first instance fixed to take place at the Corn Exchange ; that meeting was interrupted by a person of the name of John M'Crea, and a band of Orralgemen, who obtained possession of the room two hours befora the time when the meeting was appointed to be held. Tike consequence was, that the meeting could not be held on Coat occasion. He then certainly did write to a gen tlenr:n ivt Dublin to that be couEidered the party NA-611,1 THE SUN ; LONDON, SATtiiibAV, AUGUST 22, 1:35. be for ever diso-raced if they 11 0vc _ such ruffians t o p revent them from h o ldi ng t h e i r Ns:: t•J34.t.TATit) ttil Of' P,.1 DILL This having been s en t doWii from the, Lords with nicetai.. amendments, it was moved that the amendments be . Mr. HUME, Mr. P EASE , ,and , Mr. : , .k ee7s'ecl it Ali their opi e i on t h at ?d he Printed, in order that the !louse might the better judge of them. Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed with the Hon. Gentle men, that it would be the better course to print them, fican They were then ordered I? hA printe!List!riking4: TOPPll . ‘'d THE SUPPLIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the first of the Orders of the Day was the Consolidated Fund Bill, which stood for committal. The Hon. Member for Lin coln ( Mr. E. 1,. Bulwer . ) had Riven miller et a reotimi this evertinot,. on the Orst C,rder o`f the Day being moved. He Ulancellor of the Exchequer) now rose to postpone the first order till Friday next—( Cheers)—therefore the Hon. Gentleman would make his motion on the second a-der being moved. Mr. TOOlO3 said that the lli,g-lit lion. Gentleman having taker, this course, at a time when petitions were coming in from every part of the country, could not fail to give great satisfaction. Mr, HUME said that while the three great and most im portant questions were pending in another place, he thought it would be highly improper in the House to pass any more money clauses.—(Cheers.) He did not wish to ueny to itno , ther place the tree exercise of its powers, but some discre tion WaS required on the part of both.—( Cheers.) He re peated that the Members of the House of Commons, acting on behalf of the people of the country, were called on at the present crisis not to agree to any more votes of money, nor for the appropriation of that already granted.—(Great cheering.) They might at last find themselves placed in a situation such as their constituents had scarcely looked for. He hoped the Right lion. Gentleman would postpone his motion, not till Friday next only, but for any further period that might be ne cessary, to enable them, before they came to its consideration, to see how the public business had got on elsewhere. —( Great cheering.) Mr. O'CONNELL said, that undoubtedly the control of the public funds was a constitutional power belonging to the Commons of England.—( Cheers.) if it was found that the amelioration of the abuses existing in our institutions, and the advancement of the necessary reforms, were to be impeded, the Commons would exercise their constitutional control over the public Exchequer, and would place it in the hands of those who had the confidence of the people, so as to render any per severance in a systematic opposition to the improvements re quired by the people impossible.—( Cheers.) The people of England would be slaves if they submitted to such dictation.— ( Continued cheers.) Would it be submitted to, that 200 or 300 individuals, in no way responsible for what they did, should wield the power of obstructing this correction of abuses and the redress of wrongs ?—( Great cheering.) That would be a miserable period for this country; and he only alluded to it for the purpose of expressing his opinion that the people would be successful in this struggle.--( Cheers.) Mr. GLADSTONE could not hear such a proposition as that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made, without venturing to express his opinion that there could not be a more unconstitutional, a more indecent, or at least indelicate pro ceeding, than that of postponing the appropriation clause, and thus refusing the grant of the Supplies voted to his Majesty, on account of the conduct of a body of individuals with whom his Majesty had no connection. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose amidst tremendous cheering, and said that he knew not what might be the notions of decency or delicacy which the Hon. Gen tleman who had just sat down might entertain for his own go vernment. but those which he himself entertained of both the one and the other would command him to do justice to the conduct of a political opponent, and not without good ground bring against him a charge of proceeding upon unconstitu tional doctrines. He thought that he had sufficiently guarded himself, except indeed to a mind that would willingly misapprehend, against such interpretation of the course which he proposed as that adopted by the Hon. Gen tleman. He had stated that the delay which that Hon. Gentleman had ventured to characterise as indecent and indelicate, had been produced not at all by his Right Hon. Friends, or by that House, but, in point of fact, by the delay which had been given to the Militia Bill by the House of Lords itself.—( Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Gentleman had been a little more conversant with the forms of 'Parliament, or if he had paid a little attention to the statement made, lie could not have resorted to the personal attack which he had ventured to make - he must then have kn own th a t f or th e Minister of the drown to propose the appropriation clause without having had the Militia Estimates voted, would be equivalent to leaving the militia unpaid for the next twelve months, and thus to deprive his Majesty of the services of that part of his forces for that period of time. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not impute any blame to the House of Lords for the delay to which they had subjected that measure, but still it was obvious that before it was passed into a law it would be impracticable for the Government to take that step—the postponement of which was now characte rized as an offence against the constitution.—(Hear, hear.) He had been actually obliged to resort to that postponement. The Hon. Gentleman might say—why extend it till Friday —why not confine it to Monday ? For this reason : the Committee up stairs for the estimate could not be moved till that measure was passed into a law ; and then the Report of that Committee must be made to the House ; the vote of the estimate could not be made until a supply night, and it could only be after the Report of the Committee of Supply that the appropriation clause could be proceeded with. Supposing, then, that the Militia Bill should at once be passed, the earliest day for inserting that clause in the• Consolidated Fund Bill would be that which he had named. On what ground could the Hon. Gentleman ven ture to refer to his Majesty's Government as forgetful of their duty to the Crown, or of that respect which he, for one, should always entertain for a co-ordinate branch of the Legis lature? Observations might have been made, indeed, tending to connect the delay with other causes; but what had he to do with them ? Had he not sufficiently guarded himself, by dis tinctly declaring the impossibility of proceeding more rapidly or taking any further step until the Militia Bill should be passed? The Hon. Gentleman seemed to proceed upon the supposition of a distinction between the interests of the people and the interests of the Crown ; that was the true Tory doc trine, and it might well become the Hon. Gentleman to ad vance it. The Hon. Gentleman might consider that such a distinction was to be made; for his part, be could only say, that in his eves none could exist or be recognised. Mr. GLADSTONE seemed to have misunderstood the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the grounds of the delay in ques tion ; he wished to declare that nothing had been further from his int en ti on t h an to apply any obse rvations in a personal sense to the Right Hon. Gentleman. If he had made use of any language bearing that character, it was not less his pleasure than it was his duty, after the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman, to withdraw it. At the same time he could not forget the remarks which had fallen from the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dub lin, and other Members, and while he withdrew the application of his own observations to the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, he begged to transfer it to those lion. Gentlemen, on account of the interpretation which they had chosen to put upon the delay, and to the doctrines which they had chosen to promulgate in connection with it. Mr. O'CONNELL accepted the transfer, and returned it with extreme contempt. It was a doctrine slavish in the ex treme which had dictated such remarks as those of the lion. Gentleman. Again he would say, that he accepted the trans fer, and returned it with contempt. Mr. HUME, however, did not accept the transfer. He fully admitted the right of both Houses to deal with mea sures which came before them as it seemed fit to them and he trusted that that House would not hesitate to exercise whatever powers belonged to it as the guardian of the pub lic purse. Doubtless the party to which the Hon. Gentle man opposite belonged were anxious again to have the pub lic money at their command; the House well kn ew w h at they had done with it wh en they once before had it under their control ; he indeed had been for some time desirous of an opportunity to expose the many abuses which had been practised by them during their last term of office, and he only regretted that the session had been so short—(Laughtcr)— as not to afford it to him. The fact was that the people were now in danger of being deprived of the fruits of all the labours of the session ; and could it be contended tha _ . millions ought to yield to some 300 individuals.—( Hear.) Let the people of England but speak out, and then the other House might take what course they pleased.—( Hear. ) Mr. WILK S would venture to state that the inhabitants of the British Empire would be more satisfied with the con versation of that night than they would have been with a long debate upon any other subject; they would be highly satisfied with the constitutional tone and language of his Ma jesty's Ministers. Mr. R. PLUNKET believed the Tory doctrines of those who sat upon the same side of the House as himself were, that each branch of the Legislature was independent, and free to deliberate as should seem fit to it upon all questions coming before it, unbiassed by the o pi n i ons o f part i es i n any other branch—and bowing to the majesty of the people only in so far as every man must wish to bow to the real sentiments of the British people.—( Hear, hear.) He certainly should al ways trust that those gentlemen on his side of the House who had before held the helm of State—with honour, at least, to themselves —or any of whose opinions he respected, would not be actuated by the mean desire to have the public purse in their possession for the purpose of obtaining those petty drib blings which were supposed to operate as their inducement, and in return for which they must of course in such case pay the penalty of the sufferings o f a woun d ed conscience. Mr. C. B LLE R thought that if ever there was an occa sion on which the House was called upon to exercise with due deliberation the power which their ancestors had placed in their hands—of deciding whether they would place the public money in the possession of improper persons, and to protect the rights of the people from those by whom they were inso lently invaded—(llear, bear)—it was the present. He re peated that they were called upon to consider well, before they granted money out of the public purse, whether they would place it in the hands of those who would spurn the prayers and wishes of the people.—( Hear.) Th e H on. Gen tleman opposite, with that tender Tory conscience of which he seemed to boast, seemed to say that he despised the possession of the public purse. The true representatives of the people would not despise it, because they knew it to be the safeguard of the people's liberties; and that House would be the traitors of their liberties if they allowed it unadvisedly to leave their hands.—( [lean ) Mr. E WART said, that judging from the petitions presented ;o the House, the people of England must also come in for a share of the " transfer" spoken of. The House was now called upon to use the means which had been placed at their diEpcsal for the protection cf the poeple ; znd in exercising it, they would show themselves the raal friends and steady Miro -of the Crown. It was their first duty i w at i e ' ri s t l o r:h tli e h p x re i r fl er a ' n 'i the miler 0. ~..2;!h of the Legislature of % '3 / 4 41at fetd. lira people the .: ( nnerit they le i aged to do to, lief' abandoned Otelf duty in the, people al ' d i M eat;,1164. j r. TOOO Said, thai the eertiiersallort Whlelt had now taken place' was the most satisfattofy liiiMer that could be given to a petition which he had presented in the early part of the evening—it spoke volumes in a language titit td lie itlittinderstoed, and showed that that House, in the j 'tIII Hi' 110 eteuld riot be ,, tow the public fnls, over which it was the gtuirdia'n, itnEil those ob jects had been obtained which the interests of the cotirilfy loudly called for. He, for one, should withhold his assent to the appropriation of the supplies until the wishes of the people Atibiok:'t Monielpal Reform had been satisfi d. Dr. BOWR VAC, as a Utpreseriftltite of Scotland, wished it to be understood that the people of that country, to far as he was acquainted with their opinions, would not willingly see the money of the ,:enple entrusted to hands in which they had rid emilid:iidi3.--4 [leaf, bear: ) Mr. T. ATT WOOD thought it rite's/ iMportant that the House of Lords should not be deceived as to the opinions and joktiflinaiiting if the people of England, and should fully un derstand that they &AIM fidt trample upon that people. He had but recently come from a macting in the country, which had been attended by ten thousand individuals. Hid felt- sure that it Iscellti not be safe for that House to oppose their feelin g s and opinions. ft eVett liter! oh,erved at that meeting, that under the present march of education and diffusion of know ledge, the time would soon approach when the country would need neither a House of Lords nor a King, and the shout with which that sentiment had been received by those ten thousand men had almost brought the roof under which they were as sembled about his cars. Mr. H. TWISS thought that the Hon. Gentleman formed a wrong estimate of the people of this country, if he deemed those to be their feelings ; the people were not disposed to lend themselves to every revolution which a projector or interested politician might suggest. Lord J. RUSSELL said, it is certainly not my intention to answer the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, because I consider his speech as little else than a second attempt to enter on that debate which the Hon. Member near him (Mr. Plun kett) so indiscreetly and unwisely endeavoured to provoke.— (Cheers.) The simple question, which my Right Hon. Friend stated in terms as plain and distinct as those in which any pro position could be submitted, was, that the House, having only just received the amendments made by the Lords, in the Bill for the Militia, it was unnecessary to bring forward the Militia Estimates ; and until these Estimates were agreed to, it would be impossible that the appropriation of the supplies of the year (the Act for voting which was placed on the notice-book for this evening) could be determined. On that simple statement the Hon. Member thought fit to raise up an accusation against the Ministers of the Crown, and to charge them with conduct which was indecent and indelicate—to charge them with not doing their duty to their Sovereign, and putting off a Bill which ought to be now immediately considered.—(Hear, hear.) It is quite true that these expressions of their opi nions have been withdrawn ; but I am not surprised that when accusations of this kind are made, and when they are followed up by what I think was not withdrawn, a dictation to this. House with regard to the question of Supplies—namely, to tell this House that it was not for them to decide whe ther they ought to be voted, but that the Hon. Gentleman opposite had a right to lay down the certain times and periods at which the Supplies should be made complete—l say, when speeches of this kind are made, comprehending in the first place an accusation which was proved to be totally un founded against the Ministers of the Crown, and which a single minute's attention would have prevented, and when they contain, in the second place, what was very like a rebuke to the House, by declaring when and how the House of Commons should vote the supplies—l repeat, when language of such a description is used, I am not astonished that it should excite not a little of angry discussion.—( Cheers.) For my own part I can only say if there is any course which I have advised this House to take, I have recommended them to do so con sistently both with our duty to the Crown, and with our duty to the people.—( Cheers.) We are the servants of the Crown ; we are at the same time the Representatives of the people._( Renewed cheers.) I think that these interests can be combined, and with that conviction impressed on my mind, I will not listen to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Twiss) whose sentiments respecting the middle classes may be still in the recollection of some who hear me, when he delivers a lecture on the subject of what the people really are, what are the opinions of the people, and as to who are those who misre present the sentiments of the people.—( Cheers.) I hold no other doctrine that this—that I think we are here to represent the people, and to consult the people's interest.—( Cheers.) I do not impute it as a fault to another branch of the Legis lature, that when legislative measures come before them, they have not considered what was their duty with regard to these legislative measures ; but I do say, with respect to these legislative measures, and with respect to the voting the sup plies of money to the Crown, that this House is in full pos session of those powers which any House of Commons ever had.--( Loud cheers.) It is not for them (and I should be very sorry to find them doing so) to enter into any debates or discussions in which the independent rights, either of the Crown or the House of Lords should be impugned ; but on the other hand I am not ready (and I will not submit to do so from any imputation which may be thrown out on the other side) to give up one single iota of the powers which are con sidered the undoubted and indefeasible rights of the House of Commons—to provide such laws as they think are necessary for the redress of grievances, and to vote such supplies as they may think in their consciences are best calculated to maintain the honour of the Crown, and to preserve the great interests of the country.—(Much cheering.) I state my opinions on this subject only ; these opinions are not changed from what they have been.—( Hear, hear.) I have been favourable to measures of reform ; I am still favourable to measures of re form ; but I am not responsible undoubtedly for the opinions of those with whom I may be found in a division.--t Hear.) In some of those opinions they may differ from me ; but I must say, that believing them to be anxious to act in such a way as they think to be their duty to their constituents, I am persuaded that the support which they have given to his Majesty's Minis ters is as independent and honest as any that was ever given , to any Ministry.-- ( Hear, hear.) lam not disposed I repeat, to hold myself answerable for every opinion which may be ex pressed by those Hon. Members in this House, or elsewhere; but, on the other hand, I do not hesitate to accept their support as tendered upon honest and conscientious grounds—a support which could not be bought by corruption—(Cheers)--and I feel convinced that if they do not withhold that support from us for the future, they will not withhold it only because they believe that we are endeavouring to do our best, in this great crisis, to serve the mighty interests of the people.—(Loud and continued cheering.) Mr. TWISS had not interrupted the Noble Lord, though he would have been justified in doing so on the ground of misrepresentation. The mistake into which the Noble Lord had now fallen was the same as that which was committed by Lord Althorp during the discussion on the Reform Bill. The opinions which he expressed upon that occasion with respect to the middle classes were misconceived by the Noble Lord (Lord Althorp,) as he (Mr. Twiss) had proved. He was surprised, therefore, to hear this misrepresentation repeated. Lord J. RUSSELL was extremely sorry to have misre presented the Hon. Gentleman ; but his impression of what had occurred on the occasion alluded to, was such as he had stated. Sir E. COD RINGTON begged to return his Majesty's Ministers thanks for the expression of the constitutional doctrines which they had that night given.—( Hear, hear.) It was be cause he was an ardent admirer of our present form of Go vernment, that he was desirous that the just expectations of the people should be granted, and he was quite sure that if they were not, serious consequences would result to that con stitution—( Hear. ) Dr. BALD WIN took that opportunity of saying that a petition, agreed to at a most numerous and respectable meet ing in the city of Cork, had been presented to the House of Lords, praying that they would pass the Municipal Reform Bill as it was sent up from the Commons, without any altera tion in its main principles. It was well known that Cork was the second city in point of wealth and independence in Ireland, and he had mentioned the fact of such a pe tition having been agreed to in that city, to show that the strongest interest was felt in the fate of this measure amongst the people of Ireland as well as those of England:—( Hear.) He conceived that the sentiments of the Hon. Mbmber for Birmingham had been grossly misrepresented on the other side, for he understood his argument to be, that the people were not inclined to sweep away any branch of the Legisla ture until they found that its preservation was wholly incom patible with the maintenance of their rights and liberties.— (Hear.) He, for one, had no hesitation in declaring that he would not consent to the Appropriation Act being passed, or the supplies being voted to his Majesty's Ministers, until he saw strong grounds for believing that the grievances of the people would be effectually redressed.—( Cheers.) What was the state of things now before him? A Government was in power in whom the people have confidence—a Ministry which had established a further claim to the gratitude of the country by the constitutional doctrines which they had that night pro pounded.—(Hear, hear.) They were opposed by a faction by whom they might, as they were heretofore, be defeated ; but whilst he could not then say where the manifestation of the opinions of that faction were most clearly exhibited, or where their strong hold existed, he could not help expressing his un willingness to vote those supplies which might be diverted from their legitimate objects, and turned to the advantage of that band by whom the people had been plundered and oppressed. —( Cheers.) It was his fixed resolution to remain there to contend for the liberty of the people; and whilst that was in danger, he should never consent to vote the Supplies. TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE. Petitions in favour of these taxes having been presented by Mr. Grote, Mr. Bulwer, Mr. flume, Mr. Wakley, and other Hon. Members, Mr. EDWARD LYTTON BULWER rose and said-- Sir, I can assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that I am ex- ceedingly glad of the delay that has taken place in the bring ing forward of this motion. lam exceedingly rejoiced at the conversation which has just taken place, and which, I am sa tisfied, will be hailed with the greatest pleasure by the coun try. lam also glad that the motion has been delayed until so many and so respectably_signed petitions have been pre sented in favour of it.--( Hear.) The present motion is not a novel one, as on two former occasions a similar one has been brought forward, and therefore I can assure the House that j will not occupy its time for more than a few moments. I am sure the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer will acquit me of the least desire to embarrass the Government. have supported it out of rower humbly, Zel lously, but disintereatediy ; but I support them with 561/ greater pleasure now that they are in power, because hitherto they have nobly justified the grounds on which I de sired their restoration to office, and never, I believe, .-'ore than . by their speeches of this evening.—( Cheers.) That c‘ ,.:_aiderable excitement prevails upon this subject throughout the ta;un try, it is in rain t o d en y. I will anpei!l to the Member of .manufacturing town, and ask hint tf the tie'peal of the Taxes on Knowledge is not one of the nansl i popular demands among his constituents?—( Hear, hear. ) have looked at the Report of the Select Committee on Publie . Petitions, and I find that the number of petitions presented upon this subject, during the present session, greatly exceed the number in favour of ?.lunicipal Reform, and arc double , the number praying for the abolition of tithes. More, rn fact have been presented praying for the repeal of this, than have been presented far the repeal of any other tax.--( Hear. ) The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the other day with great propriety and great eloquence, that he would trot consent to purchase popularity upon false and un real grounds ; but I would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman' one question—What has made the real lasting and merited popularity of the present Government ? Has it not arion from then consistent advocacy of liberty of coinion ? In Catho lie Emancipation—the repeal of the Test an Corporation Acts, and Parliamentary and Municipal Reform Bills ?—( Cheers.) Is it, therefore, on unreal' grounds that I ask of my Righ t Hon. Friend to repeal this tax. The principle of their policy heretofore has had its reward--they have given voice to opi nion. and that voice has supported the power that. created it. All I ask of my Bight Hon. Friend is, to give the same liberty of opinion to writing, which lie and those associated wittt 15 face obtained their influence . and reputation by giving • fr . l " speech and action. The whole expression of public opinion , . in a periodical shape, is at present confined to the narrowest oligarchy that ever disgraced a free country. No man can publish a newspaper—that is, no man can write periodically upon the news of the day, or the debates in Parliament, or any domestic or foreign affairs—without paying fourpence up° every sheet in the shape of a tax.—( Loud cries of hear.): The result is, that the legal market is altogether confined to . . great capitalists, and exclusive monopolists, while a large and cheap market was opened to smugglers. I am aware thet rf you take 'away the whole duty, papers such as the Times Sou still require an immense capital, but still a number of papers, upon a thousand subjects interesting to the great bulk of the po pulation, will be published which will. not require that capital. It is perfectly absurd to see only five or six morning papers for the active, thoughtful, and stirring population of th!iii coun try. This is not the case in America, where a single cf.:strict. supports as many morning and ev en i ng p a p ers as t h e whoa.*of England. But I need only refer to England itself to shod the operation of this tax. In 1792 there were thirteen morn ing and twenty evening papers published in L on d on —(Loud cheers)—although at that time the numerical population mus,t i , have been much less, and the readily, population not one half what it is at present. It was absurd' to talk about the liberty of the Press in England so long as the taxes on knowledge continued as at present—it was absurd to say that "it is the; very air we breathe, and which, if' we have not, we perish,' when the Press was fettered by a tax which renders its condi tion a pecuniary one, and its result a monopoly.—(Cheers;) It has been urged that if the newspapee Press . is rendered cheap, it will become bad and worthless, and that if the market is widened the commodity will be deteriorated. Why, if this ar gument were used in any other article of trade a man would be set down as an idiot. If a dozen persons only were allowed to sell ' spectacles, and a proposition was made to allow every person to sell them, would not the statesman who told you that in that case spectacles would be good for nothing, deserve to be laugh' ed at ?—( Hear and cheers.) The analogy holds good with evert thing—the greater the competition the greater the chance °of . excellence, and the wider the market the better the commodi ty. But this truth obtains more with respect to literaitare than any thing else. Does the history of literature tell you that a man writes well in proportion as he is wealthy, and thriC, the extent of his knowledge or genius is in proportion to his stock in the 3 per cents. ?—( Cheers.) I am afraid you will floe that the reverse is the fact. If a tax of 200 per cent, which it that now imposed upon newspapers, were placed upon all other species of literature, it would long since have put an e:t" tingnisher upon all the best literature of the country. What extinguished the Spectator:?—w as it not the tax of one penny The eloquence of Addison and the wit of Steele, could not make head against a penny tax—( Applause.) How many Spectators in politics equally talented may you not have es tinguished by a tax of four times the amount ?—(Cheers-) I will ask my Right Honourable friend what difference is there between. political periodical writing and any other writing ? Are they not subject to the same laws—call ing forth the same intellect—demanding the same competi tion, and subject to the same regulations? In short, is there any difference but that political, and particularly periodical political writing, is much snore generally useful and unportant than any other description. If . I was a poor man, and that had not read the Rambler, or Spftator, or Skaspeare, or Milton, I do not well see how I would stand a greater c hance , of being imprisoned, or t r an s p or t e d, or h an ged. B u t were , in the same circumstances, and did not read the newspapers- - ; if I did not know what new laws were passed which surrounded me with punishments—if I did not know what was iegal an d what was illegal—l am liable to suffer through ignorance, and this tax of fourpence subjects me to crime," and exposes me to the gallows by' keeping from me the requisite knowledge---- (Hear.) I can compare the system to nothing but shutting men up in a dark room, and. declaring that they will he se-, , verely punished if they stumble against the numerous ob stacles by which they are surrounded. —(Loud cheers.) confess I do not share in the feelings entertained by some Honourable Members against the present newspaP er , Press. Where a grea t p ower ex i sts i t i s sometimes abuse"' but the wonder appears to me to be that its powers have been' so seldom abused.--( Hear.) I hope I have shown that I 811/ above the meanness of flattering or fawning upon this formi dable engine of praise or censure, by having been the first per son' to bring forward a substantive motion for the Repeal of the . existing monopoly; and, therefore, it is, that I think I may b e allowed to bear witness to the talent, respectability, character,- and accomplished education of the great mass of the gentleme n connected with the periodical Press.—( Hear.) I use this, no t as a compliment, but as an argument, in favour of my motion , because it is precisely—because the Press is thus able and . excellent—that we ought to extend its advantages as widely as possible.—( Cheers.) Can any one suppose that these gen tlemen will write worse when they have a larger community to address ?—( Hear.) But it may be said, that if they write for the multitude they must inevitably pander to their base pas" sions. Whoever makes that assertion knows very little about the multitude. Look at the papers which please the great mass of the people, and you will find articles on science, trade, education, the steam-engine, and matters: which would appear tedious to us. They do not desire that their bad passions should be aroused—they seek'to have their minds enlightened. They live by labour and seek t o know how that labour may be best directed. lam afraid it is we--" the idle rich—" the lords of luxury and ease," who requir e a false and meretricious excitement—who alone support the disgraces of the Press—who encourage the slander and scand/0 the venom and frivolity, which were first wrought into sundry libels, not by a radic a l j ourna l, not b y a heartless demagogue print, but by a paper professiog to take gentlemen on the other side of the House under its especial protecticin , and which furnishes the gossip of the Court, and the tittle tattle of the aristocracy.—( Loud laughter and cheers.) If you look at the large Newspapers which circulate among the great mass of the people, you will find in them the most varied information, the most argumentative writing, and a freedom from all private calumny, vulgar slander, and per -, sonal abuse. (Loud cheers.) But it may be If you make the press free, many dangerous and revo... lutionary political doctrines may be published. Doubtless there will be, as nraw, doctrines of all sorts—the good and the bad? But who is decide the question? Who will decid e what is good and what bad? Some Hon. Members on th e other side of the House tell you that the doctrines of the pre' sent Government are revolutionary and dangerous ; w hereas , from what I have heard this very night, if I were asked wha t doctrines were most likely to weaken the just influence o f the Crown, separate the different classes, incense the people, a nd produce and hasten the course of revolution—l should sa y that it was the doctrine of the Conservatives.—( Cheering, and Hear, hear.) Who then shall decide the question as to wh et is good and what is bad--what is useful, and what is revolt? tionary ? None can do so : scarcely time itself can decide it• In the words of an able' writer—" Truth requires no 'inscrip tion to distinguish it from darkness ; and all that Truth wan ts is the liberty of expression."—( Great cheering.) Has not the terror of the propagation of dangerous doctrines been use d against the progress of enlightenment ? Is it not for this that censors hav e b een placed upon books, and inquisitors ui)° e opinions ? Wh a t e ff ect h ave these prosecutions produced ~ The French Court prohibited the works of Voltaire, and Vol taire became at once endowed with the power to shake old p opinion to its cent re . G eneva b urnt the social contract of Rousseau, and out of its ashes arose the phoenix of its influ ence. Tom Paine had not sold ten copies of his notoriou s work, when the English Government thought fit to prosecut him, and within a wee k f rom t h at per i od there were 01" 30,000 copies !—( Hear, hear.) Government never had pre vented, and never could prevent, the propagation of danger ous doctrines by prohibitions, either in the shape of a tax or a law—the only effect of persecution was to render the doe trines more dangerous and the people more eager. If I wa nt a new proof of the truth of this argument, do I not find Rig the very tax I ask you to repeal ? For how ulaL l !, years have yvti Leen endeavouring t o p u t d own t"' - unstamped press, whose doctrines are alleged t o be dan gerous; and for how many years has it enjoyed impuoitY' and deluged every manufacturing town ? The market has been literally overstocked with them, and if you were to repeal t e whole tax to-morrow, there would not be a single new puhb cation of these dangerous, inflammatory doctrines, for dtir ing the la s t seven or e i g h t years every one who wished to Pu,n lish-them has done so with impunity.—( Hear.) By the imnos i " tion of the tax upon the more respectable class, you Yo u prevented a n y re pl y to t h ese d angerous publications. "'- have given up the field to these who have sown it with noxiou s weeds, and prevented the good husbandman from labouring to it. You are now at last embarked in an obstinate war with the unstamped Press—a war in which lam sure you will not sac' ceed—( Hear.) I ask the Right Hon. Gentleman does I : e think for a moment t h at h e can succeed ?—( Hear, hear.) It t impossible, for no one ever did succeed in putting down sronii . ling wh en th e tax was 2 00 per cent upon the article smuggle-. he My Right lion. Friend i s aware b etter than myself, that t only way to dimini s h smugg li ng, w h ere i t had risen to an coon, orrnous height, is to reduce the tax, and that is what I lO W urge upon my Right Hon. Friend.—( Hear.) Ido not ask A t f. tal repeal, b u t on l y a re d uct i on to one penny. By , reduction, I think, a very great advantage . will be ge ar ed. We will materially extend the advantages of know' ledge without in the least diminishing the amount of reven ue. The stamp d u ty a t present produced (after allowing for th.e discount) three F enc e an d a f ract io n upon eac h parer ; endf i; it tin th,