The Sun. — London, England, 1848-08-11 00:00:00

~~~ le-- of ,t 7 ' Gentleman—charges e ou the most singular t ~tir nony.—(flear, hear.) Mr. HUDSON said that if enrrapt practices had taken place at the Landon &eetion, the Noble L.,rd, and pro bably the chairman of his Committee, v. ould be the last persons ,to know any Mng about them.—((.[ear, hear.) A was generally stated that a large sum of money had been expended, which could not be for any legitimate or proper purpose. He thought the Government would act Wisely by giving up the Bill altogether, which would only create unpleasant and angry feelings in the boroughs to which it was to apply. Mr. HOBHOUSE refused to be bound by the prin ciple on which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General) would include Lincoln in the Bill. He had been returned at the smallest possible cost for the city of Lincoln, and he believed that there never was an election where greater purity and propriety prevailed. That consideration alone should weigh with the House in excluding Lincoln from the schedule, even if Lincoln bad before that been guilty. It was in Lis opinion highly unjust to adopt a retrospective principle in the Bill. There was no objection to the issuing of the writ in the case of Lincoln as in the case of Horsham, and that he considered was a distinction in favour of the former place. If his Hon. and Gallant Colleague divided the House he should divide with him. Mr. BROTHERTON said that the Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had proved too much; for if Lin coln was so pure as he had represented, there could be no fear from any inquiry. If he understood the case of Lincoln, Mr. Seely, the late Member, was unseated for practices which the. Hon. and Gallant Member had prat tised, and said he would continue to practise. On the score of justice, therefore, ho thought that an inquiry should take place. After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, the Committee divided, when there appeared— For retaining Lincoln in the schedule 69 J. Against-it Majority Lincoln was accordingly inserted, as were Leicester, Lyme Regis, and Bewdley. On the motion-that Harwich be inserted, Mr. BAGSHAWE said that he might use every ar gument which had been used in the case of Lincoln, in favour of the borough of Harwich, but he thought he would best consult the - credit of this borough by courting inquiry. —(Near.) On the motion that Aylesbury be inserted, Lord NUGENT said that he was sure he was only representing the cordial wishes of those who elected him in giving his assent to the insertion of Aylesbury. —(Hear, hear.) He could bear testimony to the pure manner in which both the representativ©s of Aylesbury bad been sent to that louse. Mr. NEWDEGATE suggested that as the Noble Lord was so anxious -for inquiry, Aylesbury should be put first in the schedule. Mr. Q. DICK thought inquiry would be of great ser vice, and was sure it would be for the morality of the borough that it should be thoroughly and radically re formed.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DISRAELI was not even aware that Aylesbury Was included in the _schedule, and he was struck with surprise at the two speeches he had just heard from the Members of the town of the county which he repre sented. Snell maudlin sensibility as considered an im peachment a fortunate occurrence he could certainly not understand. His Honourable Friend who spoke last certainly had no reason to make the speech he had deli vered, and he must attribute its delivery to the fact of his oratorical experience being considerably less than his parliamentary.—(A laugh.) As for the electors of Aylesbury he',(Mr. Disraeli) cared very little for them. Being people of very little minds, who were advocates of liberalism and not of liberty, they were generally Opposed to him.—(A laugh.) But Aylesbury was an Old English borough, and he believed, upon his honour as a gentleman, that it was as pure as any borough in the empire, and that a bribe bad never been offered 'Within its extensive bounds.—(Laughter, and cries of "Oh, oh.") He utterly protested against the two speeches just made. They were not justified. They were outrag es against the borough. Did the H o n. M e mbe r behind him consider his speech a re commendation to the hustings en a future occasion? As for the Noble Lord he was the victim of a too pellucid sentimentality.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He protested against the legislation of cant, and he charged the Mem bers for Aylesbury with not doing their duty. Lord NUGENT said he shculd very briefly reply to the not over-weighty charge which had just been brought against him. He scarcely knew whether his sentimen tality was " maudlin" or " pellucid," but certainly it did not arise from the same feeling as the sentimentality of the lion. Gentleman who thought Aylesbury ought to be exempted from the inquiry because it was an, ancient borough. He did not impeach his constituents. He did precisely the reverse. He courted the inquiry, in order to clear his constituents, and he hoped the inquiry into their conduct would be made with the most stringent severity, which was the only way in which such an in vestigation could be useful. Mr. Q. DICK felt the attack made upon him had been quite uncalled for. He was confident that this borough would come clean out of the fire of the investi- - Ration. Mr. NEWDEGATE said this debate was taking an extraordinary turn—nothing less than an imputation on the Committee which unseated the late Member for the borough of Aylesbury. The only object the present Members could have would be to reverse the decision. The question was then put and carried. Cheltenham, Sligo.. and Lancaster were respectively added to the schedule without observation. On the question that Bodmin be added, Mr. WYLD said it was not until the eleventh hour that this borough, in the kindness of her Majesty's Soli citor-General to ono of the supporters of the Govern ment, had been added to the schedule appended to this Bill. For his own part, he had no objection to inquiry; but that Bodmin should be added at the last moment to schedule which had a preamble imputing bribery and corrruptioa to the electors was not to be borne. There Was not an item of evidence to justify such a proceeding, and if a single borough against which a petition was to be presented was exempted from this Bill, then Bodmin ought certainly to be excluded. Never had a pura or quieter election occurred in Bodmin. It took p lace at assize time, and even the judge congratulated the mayor upon the tranquillity that prevailed, and the county ,magistrates and • the bar declared they should not slave known that an election was going forward. There were some gentlemen in that House who appeared in clined to tinker the constitution for their own purposes; but it was sad to reflect that any Minister, in order to shield himself, should sacrifice the interests of such a borough as that be represented. Its electorate was com- Posed of a most intelligent body of men, and he should think they ought rather to be shielded than to have their frailties mapped out for public inspection. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL owned he did not think the ease of Bodmin a very strong one ; but it had been subject to a special report, and wherever such special re- Port was mad e h e had thought it right to put th e rough into the schedule of the Bill. Mr. DISRAELI saw by the discussion which had taken place that there was one object in the Bill— ; ta mely, to decide to which aide of the House the Mem "er for Bodmin belonged.—(Laughter.) Surely, Mr. .-;7.11 So licitor-General ought to be ashamed of himself to in nlude in this Bill a borough 'represented by such a Mem ber. As for the Bill itself it seemed to him to be essen tially a miserable, hypercritical, lying, canting Bill. Such a wretched pretence of purity as he had been wit ness to that night he could not have believed possible— a S olicitor-General getting up and admitting that it Was " a weak case." Why, who doubted it was weak; and there were other things weaker than the 13111.—(A hu es.) What an idea must the country entertain of a Government that could produce - a such a Bill. If the fu ture of tho nation depended upon such legislation as this its hopes must be small indeed. If the Member for Bod min- divid e d, h e s h ou ld di v id e w ith hi m , b u t h e was bound to say that he brought all this upon himself. He went down to Bodmin with his maps.—(Laughter.) No wonder he thought them an intelligent constituency.— (Renewed laughter.) A minister had said, and he was i n a great scrape for it, that " Italy was a geographical na me." The Member for Bodmin looked on Bodmin as geographical iname.—(Laughter.) He took down his aPs and he - triumphed geographically.—(Renewed l aughter.) He gave globes not goblets—and he suc seeded. But he would doubtless profit by his experience to future, and go without his maps. Bodmin was a Cor ljah borough, and Cornish boroughs always had a bad dish name, though the Hon. Member thought it had, on l t e h s i s s o o n c a. casion, profited by his moral and geographical Here, however, was - a Solicitor-General, not knowing what names to put in, selecting a borough merely by chance, and stuffing it into a Bill in which he t hought he bad discovered the great principle of a new Parliamentary reform. Yes that was the Right Hon. G o e ut n iny twt t t i n'a idea. He landed that the feeling of the t would approve a measure which brought repro. mid-Puniehment me su r e gift of a shilling dinner ticket, and that was his measure of parliamentary refor mation. SIBTIIORP said if the Member for Bodmin Z. v ii l _ r _ ed (L ki A e lea s uy h g, o h :y cji divide with him against this dirty he never was more surprised than 1 .!: h , e11., on Friday last, having returned from the sea 'Lni.es where he hactbeen with a rich relation—(Laughter) --he heard that- Bodmirrwss - to be - included in this Bill. return Never was a man who deserved a petition against his less that lie did. What was his connexion with Bodmin? Last year he went down there to a dinner " ' fle eted with a railway. transaction. He was well received, and in May. last he sent a friend down to see how the land ilay. He reported that Mr. Wyld was canvassing with success, and that if he wished to get in h_ must start at , once. Well, he w e nt d own , an d h e g ot, not many promises; he 'admitted, bat a great many people said, " Why, we don't knr!iw who is coming.”— (Shouts of laughter.) .6 W e " don't know," they said, " who is coining; • but we can tell you this, that we are sot_ going to hav e our p resent M em b ers aga i n . O ne (Si r pry) is a foal, and the other(Mr. Gardner) is an im t!"tor.' Well, he (Mr. Lacy) was returned, and what followed? that ho was badgered and bothered out of his life about, this trumpery petition ' which turned simply upon the eircurastance , ot some of his Committee, without his i v wled ge , collecting 20/. to give some of the poorer _eters a treat. Thi s was not a case for i nqu i ry, an d h e (~.11tred th em to proceed further against him in the matter. •tte said "dare,": because he felt strongly on the subject, and that he admitted. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had included all boroughs in the Bill in which there were treating, witlauut reference to the amount. Mr. LACY said tt.o treating at Bodmin was not for corrupt purposes; that was proved before the Com mittee. Mr. ELLIOT said ho really had doubts about this ease- It appeared a very weak one. Mr. BANKES asked if thi s Bill was to b e passe d t o m eet "weak cases." If the Members for Bodmin stood pr thei r b oroug h as they ought he Should vote with a. Was it worth while t o b r i ng in a B i ll to prevent the supply of thew trumpery refreshment tickets? t il LONDON, Mr. G. TURNER also opposNl the intrenu. Bodmin into the schedule. He would never coment introduce any town respecting which the evidence was not before them. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had inclu;led Bodmin and Bolton both, iu consequence of what ap peared to be the &Sire of the House. Mr. HENLEY denied the accuracy of the statement that Bodmin had been included in the schedule at the instance of the opposition side of the House. Dr. BOWRING said that it had been the general opi nion of both sides of the House that any borough against which bribery and corruption had been shov%n should be included in the schedule of this Bill. For his own part, he should be perfectly ready to vote for the insertion of Bolton in the schedule were it shown that Bolton was tainted with corruption. Mr. E. TURNER considered that the Hon. Mem ber for Bodmin was chargeable with no impropriety for having presented maps to the Literary Institution of Bodmin. Colonel SIBTHORP thought it clearly evident that the Noble Lord opposite, and indeed tho Solicitor-Gene ral himself', knew nothing of the evidence taken in the matter before the House. He denounced the Bill as characterised by gross partiality—the measure should be one of general application, and such a measure he would be ready to support. He recommended the Noble Lord to entertain second thoughts on the question, and to abandon the measure altogether. Mr. DISRAELI repudiated the principle that two boroughs having been inserted in a schedule like this were all at once to be quietly omitted from the schedule, just because the sitting Members emphatically reminded the Government of the aid they have given to their measures. ' If these boroughs had been fitly inserted, they should have been retained. After what had occur red, the Government ought to explain its motives for withdrawing Bolton and Bodmin, and the reasons for continuing Lancaster and Sligo in the disfranchising schedule. The strange confessions from the Treasury Bench of that evening ought to induce the Committee to insist upon the Chairman reporting progress, in order to give the Solicitor-General time to mature his mea sure, and for the purpose of affording the Hon. and Learned Member this opportunity he begged leave to move that the Chairman do report progress. The question being put from the cnatr, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he could not but admire the tactics of the opposite side, which were at once new and ingenious. It had formed a ground of complaint on a former evening that there was no recognised leader of the Opposition who might organize and control the movements of Hon. Members on the other side of the House. But a better plan had been devised by them— that of having two leaders taking opposite views of the same question and proposing different plans. One of those leaders in the present instance had asked why Bodmin had not been included in the schedule, as there had been a report of a Committee against it. The sug gestion being adopted, up got the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, who said he was prepared to show that Bodmin had been included in the schedule on light grounds, which the evidence would not justify, and the Honourable Members around him (Mr. G. Bankes) sup ported his assertion. On looking at the report, his Honourable and Learned Friend had found that there was no charge against the sitting Member for Bodmin, or the electors, of bribery, and having admitted that it was too light a case to justify its insertion in the schedule, he withdrew it. Then up got the other leader of the Opposition, who said that the Government was acteated by corrupt motives, for they had only re moved Bolton and Bodmin from the schedule, because the sitting Members voted for them on all occasions. Observe only the admirable tactics of the opposite side in thus dealing with the question ! But the manner of so treating it showed the advantage of having two leaders of the Opposition. The Hon. Member for Buckingham shire had characterised the Bill as the last act of a melo drama, closing the session in a shower of sparks and blue flames. But it would rather seem that the Hon. Mem ber for Dorsetshire and himself had been studying their parts in a comedy, the dialogue of which had been settled in a friendly conversation before the curtain had drawn up that evening. He was quite sure the Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire would be prepared to express his indignation at the omission of the borough of Bodmin, or his surprise at its resto ration to the schedule, according to the preconcerted scheme of the play in which he was to take part.— (Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, on the other hand, was of opinion that the Government ought to have gone through the evidence in all the cases re ported to the House, and, disregarding the reports, have selected such boroughs only as were most culpable. But let the I - louse only conceive what the result of such a course would have been. The Government would have immediately been accused of having made a selection of boroughs for disfranchisement upon party motives, whilst the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, with his character istic ingenuity, would have got a theme to argue upon which would have lasted him a year at the least.— (Cheers and laughter.) If the Government had fallen into the trap prepared for them by the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire, he would have been delighted to have tor mented them, and he would never have let them out. The Government had, however, escaped this snare. They had been guided by the reports of the Committees, and whether the cases of bribery and corruption were great or small, those reports had formed the basis as well of the Bill as in drawing up the schedule, and the suggestions of the various Committees had been carefully followed. Ho had heard nothing during the long discussions which had taken place on the Bill to shake his opinion that the Government was hound to carry it into operation, and, in fact, Parlia ment had to a great degree pledged itself to do so. If the principle embodied in the measure came fairly into operation, Hon. Members on the other side would find in the end that they would derive as much benefit from its provisions as any other party in that House. Mr. HENLEY said that the Government had treated the elective franchise with great levity in consenting to insert Bodmin in the schedule upon the mere sugges tion of an Hon. Member on his side of the House, and without having made any inquiry as to the degree of guilt incurred by that borough. He never before wit nessed such an instance of reckless dealing with the franchise as the Bill presented. The principle adopted by the Solicitor-General was to hang a man first and examine into his guilt or innocence afterwards. His Hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire had taken a very prudent course in moving that the chair man do report progress, and he cordially supported him in so moving. Dr. BOWRING could not consent, particularly after what had just occured, that Bolton should be withdrawn from the Bill.—(A laugh.) lie sincerely and cordially desired that inquiry should take place at Bolton. Colonel THOMPSON was of opinion that the with drawal of these two boroughs from the Bill might here after form the plea that treating was not a thing that House could take cognizance of; and as he and those with whom he acted on that side of the House, and he hoped many on the other side, considered that treating was identical with bribery, he could not consent to their withdrawal. After a few words from Mr. SPOONER, who objected to the motion for reporting progress, and from Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, who supported it with the view of giving the Government time to reconsider the evidence respect ing these two boroughs, Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government would not adopt any other course than they were pursuing that night, and therefore reporting progress could only have the effect of prolonging the session. After a few words from Mr. HEALD in favour of ex cluding Bodmin, The Committee divided, when there appeared— For reporting progress Against it ll6 Majority --81 Mr. DISRAELI repelled the charge that he or his friends were the advocates of corruption, and accused the Government of not knowing their own minds by intro ducing Bodmin into the Bill and then withdrawing it. lle was not the advocate of corruption—he did not owe his position in the House to corruption; but he was the opponent of cant, and, among other kinds of cant, that which complained of the time taken up in discussions like these as the Hon. Member for Stockport had com plained.—(Hear.) What had saved Bodmin but discus sion?—(hear.) And when the consequences of discus sion had been, as it had been that night, to occasion a change in the opinion of Government, he would protest against any attempt to prevent it. _ Mr.T.:HOMIOUSE—It appeared that the principlo that the inquiry should extend only to those I;orouhs against which special reports had been presented by the Select Committee up stairs was now to be abandoned. He wished to know why Horsham, which had never been convicted of bribery, was to be included in the schedule? He called on the Solicitor- General to state on what principle the schedule was to be based—whether it was proof of bribery, or whether mere treating was to be sufficient? He, as a Member for one of the accused boroughs (Lincoln), was not prepared, like the Hon. Member for Bolton, to throw his constituency overboard. Until the principle on which the Bill was to proceed was distinctly laid down, he objected to proceed further with it. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL hoped he should be excused going into a discussion over and over again, as to the propriety of the withdrawal of Bodmin from the schedule, upon which the House had unanimously decided; and when the Hon. Member for Bucks rose to speak, the Chairman stated that the question was already de cided, and two hours had been since occupied uselessly. He would not take up the time of the House by attempt ing to repel the charges brought aginst him by the Hon. Member for Bucks, but would leave it to the House to say how far by his conduct, since he had been a Mem ber, he had deserved them.—(Hear, bear.) He en treated the House to proceed with the discussion on the Bill, avoiding personal attacks.—(Hear.) Mr. DISRAELI repeated that in this case discussion had been of use, and charged the Solicitor-General with having misrepresented the real facts of the case. After a few words from the Solicitor-General, Colonel Sibthorp, and Dr. Bowring, Mr. HOBHOUSE complained that no answer had been given to his question as to the principle of the Bill. Lord J. RUSSELL had already detailed the principle of the Bill at length—which was that the reports of Committees should be the only thing to be attended to, but that the general substance of those reports should be the guide, and when the substance showed considerable bribery or corruption had prevailed, those boroughs should be included in the schedule. Mr. WYLD wished to say that he had supported the Government not in consequence o f an y co mpact with them, but because he agreed with their general policy. It was not on the ground of hii being a supporter of Government that they had consented to withdraw ,Bod min from the schedule. After an observation from Colonel SIBTHORP, Lord J. RUSSELL said that when he proposed that the Chairman should leave the chair, he did so with a view that the amendments might be brought up and printed. S UT* N, ..ti on 01 _r. HAMILTON asked would there be any objection ' ili:.ert,llotron in ? J. 'RUSSELL did not' mean to insert Bolton; -"ite open to any Hon. Member to move its but it was ( 1 insertion. -d to the Bill as despotic in Captain HARRIS ohj,c., —vert that House into its character, and calculated to c 0... "'Aver(' exceed a judicial tribunal_ lie thought that tnL, .. .. ing their p o we r i n p ass i ng suc h a l aw . ~..1.,43 The borough or Bodmin was then struck out of ~.. schedule. Mr. 111 - ‘KENZIE moved that Bolton be inserted. ' Mr. G. A. HAMILTON seconded the motion. He thought it only just that Bolton should be inserted, as there was a wide distinction between it and Bodmin, in which case no bribery had been proved. The Committee divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it l4 Majority for the motion —.404 Tho borough of Bolton was then irserted, the House resumed, and the report was brought up. The SOLICITOR GENERAL moved that the Bill be re-committid for the purpose of being r eprinted. Mr. 'IN EWI)EGATE asked if Sligo and Lancaster were in-:erted in the Lehedule. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Yes. The Bill was then recommitted, the amendments were agreed to, and the report was ordered to be brought up on Thursday next. SUGAR DUTIES. In answer to Lord G. BENTINCK, Lord J. RUSSELL was inclined to name Wednesday next for the sugar duties. After a conversation, Friday was fixed for the dis cussion. NAVY ESTIMATES. In answer to Colonel SIBTHORP, Lord J. RUSSELL stated that he would take the navy estimates at twelve to-day; and, if they had been gone through, the miscellaneous estimates at five. FEES (COURT OF CHANCERY) BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. GOULBURN opposed the Bill. He put it to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whether it would not be better to adopt the arrangement which had already been carried out in the Irish courts, than to propose an entirely new principle. The Bill gave unheard-of powers to the Lord Chancellor, which usurped the authority of the Treasury, and would lead to the greatest inconvenience. He advised the Hon. and Learned Soli citor-General to withdraw this Bill, and adopt the prin ciple of the measure which had been adopted for the courts in Ireland, and worked beneficially in that rnn n try. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the courts here were in a different position to that in which the courts of Ireland were at the time of the passing the Act referred to. There most of the officers of the court had been paid by fees, and here very few officers were remunerated by fees, but received fixed salaries. He admitted that the plan of this Bill was not matured, but hoped it would be allowed a second reading, and in Committee the measure might be made perfect. Mr. HENLEY would not object to the second reading, but held that the measure required much alteration and modification. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL supported the Bill, the principles of which had, he believed, been approved by the Select Committee on fees in courts of law. Mr. GOULBURN would not further object to the second reading, but reserved to himself the right to take any course he might think proper in the next stage of the Bill. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday next. POOR REMOVAL (No. 2) BILL. Mr. SPOONER moved the second reading of this Bill, Mr. CLEMENTS objected to its being proceeded with at that hour. Mr. SPOONER hoped the second reading would not be objected to, as the Bill was merely intended to remove doubts which had arisen in the construction put on the provisions of the Act of 1846. Mr. CLEMENTS said if the Bill removed all doubts he should not object, but the Bill would not produce that effect. After a few words from Mr. C. Anstey, Mr. Henley, Mr. C. Buller, and Major Blackall, the Bill was read a second time. FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL. On the bringing up the report on this Bill, a variety of verbal alterations and amendments were proposed by Sir W. Somerville, Colonel Dunne, Mr. Frewen, Mr. Monsell, and Mr. Anstey. Some of them gave rise to considerable discussion. Ultimately the report was received. NEW BILLS. Leave was given to introduce the following Bills, which were brought in and read a first time : Ott the motion of Mr. F MAULE, a Bill to amend the Acts for rendering effective the service of the Chelsea and Greenwich out-pensioners, and to extend them to the pensioners of the East India Company. On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, a Bill to amend and continue ,for a limited time an Act to make provision for the treatment of poor persons afflicted with fever in Ireland ; and a Bill for the appointment of additional taxing masters of the High Court of Chan cery in Ireland. The House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, August 10. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at Five o'clock. RUM DUTIES BILL. This Bill was read a third time. LAND-TAX COMMISSIONERS NAMES BILL. This Bill was also read a third time. PAISLEY, BARRIIEAD, AND HURLET RAIL. WAY BILL. On the motion that this Bill be read a third time. Lord BEAUMONT called the attention of their Lord ships to a petition against the Bill from the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway Company, and moved that this Bill be read a third time this day six months. The Earl of DEVON, as Chairman of the Committee which passed the Bill, supported the decision, and ex plained the grounds on which he did so. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. CONFERENCE WITH THE COMMONS. A conference was requested by the Commons with their Lordships on this Bill, which was granted, and held in the Royal Gallery. The Lords appointed were the Earls of Devon, Granville, Strafford, Canning, Redes dale, and Hardwicke. a s et I extent y eTtvephenren p et rs eeasni tvfeht en, er at g d r e . r uu i o wan Earl DEVON, on the return of their Lord s hips, re ported the result of their conference. EMIGRATION TO AUSTRALIA. Earl GREY laid p a p ers , on th e t a bl e w ith res p ec t to emigration to Austr a lia, i n con ti nua ti on o f th ose previously mel cddbose He ttrno o s o a toaf i d f r , maa t e juhe m vcevho i e g y, r apg a tgo t or e i pe e , au n atl eia urt t cip o olee unxr de t t i h ee npnag a - t tt c ht t h a : b a l n o n e 3 : , clothing and provisions, was 201. The average Number who for the last seven years had gone out was 122,000; whilst last year the number had increased to 258,000, the cost of carrying out whom could not be less than 2,500,000/. Ile did not wish to under rate the importance of emigration to Australia, as it afforded an eligible receptacle to those who could not succeed in making a living at home. The colonies provided a great quantity of tallow and other useful.ravv materials, whilst they took a vast quantity of the produce of the mother country; therefore emigration to that part of our dominions should be encouraged to the utmost extent. The Noble Lord then referred to the rapid increase of the prosperity of New South Wales and Tan Diemen's Land, at the present moment, as compared with what it was in the year 1828, when the population, includ ing the Convict inhabitants, was but 53,000: now it was 300,000, or five or sixfold ; in 1828 the exports increased in value but 181,000/., whilst in 1845, the last year for which the returns had been completely made up, their value was 2,189,000/., showing an increase in seventeen years of twelvefold the amount in 1828.—(Hear.) In 1830, when he first knew anything about these colonies, there was no such scheme existing for the emigration of the labouring classes to New South Wales. The expense of emigration at that time was much larger than could be afforded by a labouring man, so that practically there were no means of emigration for that class of society. In the course of tho year 1830 his Noble Friend Lord Ripon established a system for the sale of land instead of gra tuitous grants in Australia; and at the same time the principle was laid down that the revenue realised by those sales should be applied to carrying out labourers to that colony. A commission was appointed, at the head of which the Duke of Richmond presided, and of which he himself (Earl Grey) was a member. The first measure of that commission was to prevail upon the shipowners to furnish a passage at a cheaper rate. They did so; but the funds applicable to emigration were at that time exceedingly small, and for the first few years the progress of emigration was so slow that no very valuable result was likely to arise from it. But the measure itself being founded on a sound principle, its operation gradually increased, until the results became very important. In 1837 the extent of emigration had so far increased that his Noble Friend, who was then Secretary for the Colonies, appointed a separate commission for the management of that business, and hence the origin of the Land and Emigration Com mission. That Commission adopted measures of incal culable importance, both for the benefit of this country and the colonies. At that time the population of New South Wales was only 77,000, but in the course of ten years the population was almost doubled, emigration having added to it not less than 62,000 persons. Those persons were sent out under the superintendence of the Commissioners, and the greatest possible advantage had resulted from that proceeding. At the same period the Commissioners sent out to South Australia about 10,000 persons ; the New Zealand Company also sent out about 7,000 ; so that altogether in those ten years there were sent out between 90,000 and 100,000 emigrants to these colonies, of whom no less than 80,000 were provided with a passage out of the sums derived from the sale of colonial lands. After this general statement he would now turn for a moment to one or two individual cases by which the result would appear still more remarkable. The great district of Port Philip in Australia and the colony of New Zealand had been the creation of not more than ten years. Ten years ago there were in Port Philip only a few scattered inhabitants of between 2eo and 300 in number. In March, 1846, the population of that district, according to the last census, was 32,800. The town of Melbourne contained between 8,000 and 10,000 inhabitants. The imports into the colony in 1847 amounted to 205,0001., the exports to 343,000/, oless land, than was 70,0001.; the revenue, t a ( n r d ri t t h o e ria g l eneral rev ebnyuethwea sale no making altogether a revenue of 138,000/. collected in a district which only ten or twelve y ears a g o had been occupied by 200 or 300 persons. In South Australia the results were almost equally rema rkable. But he s T 11 FRIDAY EVENING, AUGUST 11, 1848. woul ( d i b n e o f t ot t i r n o (i i trouble their n tilepa pe s he L , r ,rdsh ivp,a u s with dtetioail lays, _casai thethey noli, table. having wa a t s iimrpivoirnctl om ari c tto muni3 observe t, that Port Pe i I i p, without one shilli ng of expense to iad thebeen mother-country; and ; o i e s advance to till encounter,a large and surplus u c s o s r t c , , steadily yu u i t tt h Australia, although it had had tem porarytpai a n n r i u l a e t d e i v v s e e t i e d y i , a considerable i; cen:omuwe em..igrants to which h ha w t a c s ou a t p tr r y o . l) t•Ak.l been realised, whi entirely emerged from those difficulties, and had con tinued success of that colony was owing to the riNateeidthtoertchoeuclodnivtebye which had been discovered there, difficulties wea; of the colony, which were at their gs h bare e iec i d g aa h tuts t hme i li n ttnhe l er B a 4 l o, had in 1843 been completely overcome, and the colony was in a state of advancing prosperity before the mines had been opened to an extent of any importance. It was entirely a mistake to suppose that these colonies had been formed by merely one class of society, or by the emigration of labourers only. So far from that being the case there were to be found settled in those colonies retired officers of the army and navy— gentlemen who had taken high degrees and honours at the universities, and many other persons of education and intelligence. Indeed, both in South Australia and New South Wales there was a very large population of superiorly educated and intelligent men. He must there fore say, that looking at this state of facts, it was impos sible to admit the truth of what had been very confidently asserted—that the art of colonization was lost to the present age. On the contrary, he believed that coloni zation never had, in the history of the world, made such rapid progress as in the instances he had stated to their Lordships .—(Hear, hear.) He would recal their Lord ships' attention for a moment to a very interesting com parison drawn by Mr. Merivale, now Assistant-Secretary of State for the Colonies, between the progress made by the South Australian colonies and the old colonies which now constituted the United States of North America. The progress of the new colonies, as com pared with the old colonies, was really marvellous. The population of Sydney in 1836 was 19,000; in ten years it was actually doubled, and in 1846 was 38,000. Com paring this with the old colony of Boston, its population in 1790 (170 years after its foundation) was 18,000. The population of the city of New York in 1773 (immediately before the breaking out of the war), was only 21,896, being 17,000 less than Sydney at the present day. The population of Philadelphia, in 1780, was 28,528. The population of the old American colonies, in 1773, was about 2,300,000; and the population of the Australian colonies, in 1845, was 283,873. Then with respect to the trade of the two classes of colonies, the imports of the old American colonies, in 1773, amounted to little above 1,000,000/., while the imports of the Australian colonies, in 1845, amounted to 2,070,0001. The exports of the old American colonies, in 1773, were short of 2,000,0001., while the exports of the Australian colonies, in 1845, were 2,185,0001.; or, if a contrast were taken be tween the value of the trade, per head, on the population, it would appear that the imports, per head, for the old American colonies, was Bs. 9d., and for Australian 71. ss. 10d.; and the exporta,per head, for the former, 16s. Bd., and for the latter, 71. 14s. 3d. Such had been the progress of these colonies. He thought their Lord ships would agree that this statement sufficiently refuted the common notion that the art of colonization was a lost one; that the population of this country were less enterprising and adventurous than the population of former days; and that there was less capital employed in carrying on such enterprises with advantage.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, he believed that if their Lord ships contrasted the progress—almost without a check —and the steady and uniform current of prosperity of these colonies with the difficulties and the formidable: calamities which in earlier days were experienced by the old American colonies, the result would indeed be most remarkable. And this result, he begged to repeat, was owing entirely to the enterprising and persevering spirit of the population of this country, aided as they had been by modern science and modern improvements in the art of navigation. When, above all, their Lordships consi dered the great difference in the length of the voyage to the old colonies in America and the Australian colo nies, the result of the comparison became still more striking. But, great as this progress had been, he was far from saying it was not the duty of Parliament and the Government to use all such means as were in their power for giving a still increased impetus to the system of emigration. He wished to show their Lordships that this had not been overlooked. In 1845, for want of funds, emigration to Australia was nearly stopped. In 1846 the Land Emigration Commission was in a position to recommence their labours, and in that year about 2,000 persons were sent to the colonies. Since then the stream of emigration to South Australia had steadily and con stantly been flowing. Last year the Governor of New South Wales reported that the debt which had been charged upon the Crown revenues was nearly paid off, and he believed that he might safely venture to resume promoting emigration to that port. Sir C. Fitzroy sent in support of that opinion a report, in consequence of which he (Earl Grey) directed the Emigration Commis sioners immediately to resume sending emigrants to the port of Sydney, and accordingly towards the close of last year emigration was resumed. Tho first ship sailed about the month of October. Since then ships to New South Wales had been continually going, the funds appli cable to those purposes having more than kept pace with the demand. By a return in his possession it appeared that in the present year there had already sailed to New South Wales 23 emigrant ships, carrying 5,343 emi grants; that there httd sailed 11 ships to South Aus tralia, carrying 2,736 emigrants; making a total of 8,059 emigrants. A great many more ships, estimated as many as 40, were expected to be dispatched before the close of the present year, carrying out no less than 10,000 persons. So that in -the Course of the present year there would be added to the population of those two colonies, New South Wales and South Australia, not less than 18,059 persons, which would be an increase of between eight and nine per cent. upon the whole pre vious population. In South Australia the population at the commencement of 1846 was 22,390. There had since been dispatched by the Land and Emigration Com missioners nearly 8,000 emigrants, or more than one third of the then existing population. In New South Wales, according to a report dated September, 1847, of a Committee of the Legislative Council, the number of hired servants throughout the colony did not exceed 30,000. The number of emigrants to be dispatched in 1848 would be nearly 13,000. So much as to the extent of emigration to be carried on this year. He now wished for a moment to call the attention of their Lord ships to the manner in which this service had been per formed by the Land and Emigration Commissioners. He held in his hand a paper whick'was an enclosure in a recent dispatch, being a report of the Colonial Secre tary in South Australia to the Governor of that colony, with respect to the condition of the emigrants. He said—" The healthy condition in which the immigrants were landed from the several vessels which have arrived in this colony during the past quarter, and the total absence of any complaints, either from the passengers or on the part of those under whose direction they were placed during the voyage, are facts which of the mselves speak most favourably for the arrangements ma de in England in connexion with this service. The emigrants were generally well selected, and suited to the wants of this country. The superintendents appear, without ex ception, faithfully to have discharged the duties en trusted to them; and although some few alterations in the minor details of the arrangement have been recom mended by them in their daily journals, still the circum stances above mentioned, concurring as they do to show the efficiency of the measures adopted to promote t he varied interests at stake, cannot but be satisfactory to the Commissioners, on whom so much responsibil it y is devolved. The vessels employed in the emigration ser vice make quicker passages than those engaged o nl y in the conveyance of merchandise; of those which arri ved in the colony during the last three months, the longest on the voyage was 106, the shortest 89 days, making an average in the whole of 94 1-3 days. It may not be foreign to the present report here to remark , that t he young unmarried females who immigrate to this colony, without friends or relations on board, are on their arrival here at once removed from on board the vessels in which they were brought to a house in Adelaide, where every necessary comfort is in readiness for their reception. They were placed under the immediate control of a ma tron, and a committee of ladies have benevolently under taken to assist them in finding suitable employment." He would now proceed to state some of the measures which had been adopted for increasing and extending emigration to these colonies. In the first place he must remark that the expense must be mainly provided for considerable e h r e a British le by the colonies themselves. The voyage was so muc h longer and co muoh more expansive than the voyage to America, that unless the co lonies p aid a very large portion of the expense the emigrants wo u ld i n a ll pro portion of the expenses actually came fro m pr i vate sources in this country. the voyage to South A ustra li a was about three months , and somewhat l onger to New ccoalsoensie prefer or to to going the United Utoni America, either eith A er to sidt b South Wales, and occasioned' a very expensive outfit, more especially for clothes, the emigrants being exposed to the vicissitudes of the climate. This expense was calculated to cost the emigrant about 51., which. rather exceeded the whole sum for which they could obtain their voyage to America. The instructions which ho (Earl Grey) had given to the Land and Emigration Commissioners on this head were these—that they were to consider themselves as trustees acting for the colonies and to see that the greatest amount of good was ren dered to the colonists by the application of the land fund. They were to watch carefully the demand made for a passage to America and to the colonies, and to raise as much as they could the amount to be contri buted by individuals. Those applications varied very much in number from year to year. About a year ago, the harvest making a great demand for labour, there was some difficulty in obtaining a full number of emi grants from the different parts of the United Ki ng d om for Australia. But now, unfortunately owing to the de pression of trade and the diminution of employment, there was a great demand for passages to the Australian colonies; and the agents of the Commissioners were able to add an additional 1/. to be contributed by the emi grants themselves towards the cost of the voyage, thus making the amount available from the colonies sufficient for carrying out a larger number of emigrants. In some cases larger contributions were raised from individuals owing to peculiar circumstances. When a person ap plied for a passage who was not strictly qualified ac cording to the rules to be an emigrant, as being adapted to the wants of the colonies, the Commissioners were directed, in consideration of some additional payment, to accept such a person as an emigrant who would not otherwise be taken. Ho would mention an instance. In consequence of the recent French revolution a large number of English workmen were compelled to leave France. Those were persons engage d in manufactures and were not used to agricultural , la hour, and therefore not the most eligible class for emigration. But it being doubtful whether they would obtain employment at home, and as they were anxious to proceed to the colonies, he wished to afford them every facility to do so, and after consulting Lord Ashley on the subject it was arranged that if a Private subscrip lion equal to a sit . na of 4/. -a head should be cont r ib u t e d fur ittoth erm from easi ciraen f a r ration we re aware d o m m a n that and iic l largehhe he m an adult, 2/. for each child, th e y s h ou ld b e sent out jto the co l on i es , lie had reason to believe they would g hohad emigrated, sus f especially from prove a most va l ua bl e class of emigrants. There was valuable re su lt s . T hose who had attended to the moneyemi were re mittedUexnpiteeertledSttaatdeseritvoe v th e i r s Y country by persons who Ireland, for the purpose of enabling their friends to go out and join them. This he considered to be emigration rm of the best de scr i pt i on. There were great facilities for making these remitt ances f rom America, butin Australia enteredto the consulate, into it no such faciliti es ex i sted. It was determined to afford them, and accor di ngly an arrangement bad been remitted to a yd whichy i pe t r s was on with h to th have e Treasury it e now in the power o f any em i grant, by paying money in whose favour it was deposited. 'The wages in Australia were higher than those in America, and la bour continued all the year, so that opportunities for accumulation were greater there than in America. He had reason to hope that the working men would club to gether and enable one or more of their friends to emi grate, in the first instance, who should afterwards make remittances to them to assist others to go out to 'join them. He would not at present allude to New Zealand or the Cape, because the papers he had referred only to the Australian colonies., Large emigration this year would lead to larger next, because those who went out as labourers soon became themselves employers of labour. With regard to the North American colonies, it was the anxious intention of her Majesty's Government to devise means which could be adopted to promote emigration to that quarter. The Noble Earl then referred to a speech which had just been received, addressed by Sir C. Fitz roy to the Legislative Council of iNew South Wales, on opening the session on the 24th of March in the present y ear. He said—"lt is consolatory to reflect that, not withstanding the commercial depression which pre vails to so great an extent in the mother country, and the consequent low prices of colonial produce in that market, the chief resources of this colony have continued to increase in a manner alike rapid and surprising. The exports of wool—its main staple— reached in the past year the large quantity of upwards of 22,000,0001 b., of the official value of 1,260,0001., being an increase on the previous year exceeding 5,700,0001 b. in weight, or equal to the whole export of that article in the year 1838. The export of tallow in 1847 was 69,000 cwt., of the official value of 107,0001., being an increase on'the previous year of 49,000 cwt. It is our privilege to continue to enjoy, under the blessing of Divine Provi dence, a great superabundance of 'all the necessaries of life, of the best quality, and procurable at very moderate rates. Although the advanced and still rising price of agricultural and pastoral labour, consequent on its scarcity, has lately pressed so severely on the employers, it has on the other hand been the source of highly re munerative employment to the working classes; but, as no community in the aggregate can long continue to be prosperous where the fair profits of the capitalist are liable to be absorbed in the payment of an excessive or disproportionate rate of wages, I have endeavoured, by seeking fresh supplies of labour from the mother country, to restore that equilibrium, the maintenance of which between the two classes is so essential to the general as well as to their mutual welfare. The anticipations which I entertained in my last opening address to the Council have, I am glad to say, been fully realised. The whole of the Land and Immigration Debentures have been paid off, and the territorial revenue has exhibited so prosperous a state as to have enabled me to request her Majesty's Government to send out to the colony, in addition to the 5,000 statute adults already promised—and of whom the two first shiploads lately arrived in the Hyderabad and Lady Peel—an equal number in the ensuing season. There is every prospect that the whole of this immigration may be effected with out the necessity of incurring any debt. The territorial revenue will thus remain available as a security for rais ing the necessary funds for any additional supply of labour which circumstances may render expedient. The emigrants now in progress of arriving are to be selected equally from the three great divisions of the United Kingdom. They are also to be equally divided between the Sydney and Port Philip districts, and the expense charged accordingly, so that each district will receive the number for which it pays." The Noble Earl con cluded by laying the papers on the table of the House. Lord MONTEAGLE confessed that while he had heard from his Noble Friend much which was consola tory to him as confirming the principles which he had long advocated. he had at the same time heard with a dismay which it was impossible for him to describe the small promise, or rather the no promise at all, which his Noble Friendhad held out with respect to this impor tant subject. He was persuaded that this feeling of dis appointment and dismay would be participated in by the great bulk of the population who had turned their atten tion to this question—from the higher class, who viewed it merely as a matter of political or philosophical inte rest, to the poorer class, whose very- existence was in volved in it. He confessed he was disappointed in the Noble Lord's speech on many accounts. He was disap pointed, in the first place, with respect to the Noble Lord himself ; for if ever an individual was pledged to consider this question on a large and comp re h ens i ve scale, his Noble Friend was the individual who stood so pledged. The first act of the Noble Lord's official life was to introduce this - question to the consideration of the other House of Parliament ; and in order to show the views which his Noble Friend then entertained on the subject he would trouble their Lordships with an extract from the speech delivered on that occasion : " Before any measure could be introduced for the perma nent relief of the poor in Ireland it would be absolutely , necessary to relieve that country from- its superabund ance of population. The transfer of a part of our super abundant labourers to the colonies would be equally be neficial to all parties, by diminishing the overwhelming competition under which they now suffer ; to the settler, by affording him the means of cultivating his land ; and both to this country and to the colony, by relieving much of the distress now existing in the former, and by adding to the productive industry of the latter." On Mr. C. Bul ler's motion in 1843 the Noble Lord said :—" His opi nion was strongly fixed that we were, it was true, on the right road, but that we had not made all the progress that was desirable. He thought it of the greatest im portance that emigration should be encouraged to a much greater extent than at present, and he believed it was in the power of her Majesty's Ministers to take measures that would give much greater extension to the s ystem than it now possessed." He appealed to their Lordships whether in the scheme which his Noble Friend had submitted to them on the present occasion there was any approximation to the enlarged and systematic scheme of colonization which was shadowed forth in 'he extracts he had just read? Then how did the Colonial-office stand with respect to this question? On the Ist of June, 1847, an address was moved and carried unanimously, praying that her Majesty would " take into her most gracious consideration the means by which colonization may be made subsidiary to other measures for the im provement of the social condition of Ireland ; and by which, consistently with a full regard to the interests of the colonies themselves, the comfort and prosperity of those who emigrate may be effectually promoted. On that occasion--although no commission was ap pointed, which was the object of the motion —it was distinctly promised by the Government that an inquiry should take place.—(Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's reply to that address was as follows:—" I have taken into my consideration the address of my faithful Commons. I am deeply sensible of the advan tage which may be derived from the adoption of further measures for the promotion of colonization; and I will direct such inquiries to be made as may enable Parlia ment to adopt a course free from those evils which any precipitate legislation on the subject might cause both to the emigrants and the colonies." Such was the engage ment entered into by the Government and the Crown in relation to the address of the Commons. He asked his Noble Friend whether any step had since been taken on the subject?—(" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) Well, he asked his Noble Friend to produce the dispatches re lating to the subject. If he bad taken any step, he had withheld the information which Parliament had a right to require at his hands; but, until he obtained that in formation, he would state in his place in Parliament that the Government entered , into an engagement which was ratified by the Queen, that an inquiry should he made for the purpose of procuring information; that, so far as Parliament was informed, no such inquiry had been made; and that, if it had been made, the information respecting it had been withheld from Parliament, for that up to this moment it had never been produced. This was a very serious charge, and one which ought to be seriously met. The conduct of the Colonial-office on this subject, he conteasad, created great mistrust in his mind, because it showed that speeches and motions might be acquiesced in for' the purpose of avoiding an inconvenient subject, and escaping those obligations which a due consideration of the question could not fail to impose upon them. The Noble Lord had escaped al together from the consideration of the case of British America. The fact was, that his Noble Friend had done something to obstruct and check emigration to North America, to the:great disappointment of all who were interested in the question of emigration, but he had done nothing to promote it. Last year, owing to the unfor tunate calamity which prevailed in Ireland, many of the emigrants who went out from that country were in a state of disease. The colonists naturally- complained that the emigrants who were brought over to them were weak, infirm, and sick, and that they propagated fever in all parts of America. He admitted the fact, and thought it afforded the best answer to the proposal of allowing the system of unaided, undirected emigration to con tinue. But he wished to avoid these evils in future, both for the sake of the colonies and the mother country. Well, at the suggestion of his Noble Friend, a tax was imposed upon the emigrants for the purpose of defraying their hospital expenses and relieving the colonies of that burden; but he found on comparing the tax recommended by his Noble Friend with that imposed by the colonists, that the latter was exactly double that of the former. The United States were equally interested with British North America in guarding against the burden of maintaining the sick emigrants, and they imposed a tax too,—but the tax im posed by the British North American colonists upon their fellow-subjects was actually higher than that im posed by the United States upon foreigners. The effect had been to turn the tide of emigration from the British colonial shores to the United States. In the month of May, 1846, the total emigration was 21,334 ; in 1847, 50,328 ; in 1848, 28,281. The emigration to the United States in May, 1846, was! 13,254 ; in -1847, 18,02 9 ; in 1848, 22,672 ; whereas the emigration to British North America, in May, 1846, was 7, 760 •In 1 847, 31,188 ; and in 1848 it had fallen to 3,866, in e conse quence of the operation of the emigrant Noble Lord, in a dispatch addressed to the Earl of Elgi n, had stated his conviction that an enlarged system of emigration would greatly benefit the North Ameri can colonies. Why, then, did not the Noble Lord to the address the Earl of Elgin with view for discharging discharging the adop tion of some practical schem e discharged, capable of being duty which he admitted was duty discharge? He and. which it was, therefore,his to must deprecate a high maximum price - for land in the colenies. In IS4O a rate of ss. per acre realised :324.000/, though the annual produce when the price was fixed at 11. per stern was only 12,000/, 9,0001, 18,0001, and 27,000/. in different years. In Goulburn the farmers would not grow wheat for want of a market, as appeared from a letter of the Speaker of the New South Wales Legislature, who remarked that they must have labour o f some kind; free labour if they could get it; if' not, then prison labour. Instead, he added, of importing Indian corn, it would be better were the Government to transfer the millions starving at home to a country where Indian corn was a production of the soil, and thereby at once relieve the mother country of a load which was increasing annually, and pressing on her re sources in the most fearful manner. The results of the laissez faire system adopted by the Noble Lord showed its absurdity when contrasted with those of the system which had been applied to the Cape, when, in 1822, 50,0001. were appropriated for the purposes of that colony; the revenue and exports of the Cape had very largely in creased; and such, he believed, was the effect of the ori ginal interposition on the part of the Crown. Did the Noble Lord think the country would be satisfied with so meagre a measure as he had proposed, with a plan which was certainly no statesmanlike plan? Some years ago emigration was often characterised as a plan for clearing away peasants from the estates of landlords in Ireland, and paupers from parishes in England. The question was now better understood, as one which ought to be discussed without reference to selfish interests, but with a view to the well• being of the people themselves, the mother country, and the colonies, as an imperial ques tion. It was matter of deep regret that in the statement of the Noble Lord there was mothing to show that he had considered this question with reference to any prin. ciple of systematic continuous colonization, nothing to lead the people of England to cherish the slightest ex pectation that, through the agency of the Noble Lord in the colonies, any possible relief would be afforded. Earl GREY must crave permission to make a few re marks after the elaborate attack made on him by the Noble Lord in a speech in which the Noble Lord had shown so much ingenuity in putting the worst possible construction on every measure ho had adopted. The Noble Lord charged him with inconsistency in having, when not in office, urged extensive measures of coloni zation very different from what he now supported. But in the very speech he (Earl Grey) had made on Mr. C. Buller's motion in the House of Commons, he defined what he considered to be the real objects to be attained, and what he considered to be the duty of the State with respect to emigration, in nearly the same terms as he had defined them to-night. As a positive means of effecting a reduction of the number of the popula tion, he never believed emigration was of any real value. Any attempt on the part of the State to create a sudden and violent diminution of the numbers of the people by artificial means would necessarily and in evitably be followed by a greater rapidity in the rate of increase of the population, which would more than sup ply the vacuum. It was well known that after pestilence famine, and war, the vacuum was supplied with extraor dinary rapidity. In some parts of the country, especi ally in Ireland, there was a local congestion of popula tion; and, from political as well as economical con siderations, there were practical difficulties which prevented that labour from being applied at home, though it might be with advantage under a system of emigration. The great difference between his Noble Friend and himself seemed to be that his Noble Friend thought some enormous grant, some millions of public money, ought to be applied to emigration purposes. Ile (Earl Grey), on the other hand, greatly doubted whether making such grants out of the taxes, the State undertaking to plant large numbers of people on vacant lands in the colonies, was a more pru dent plan than the other plan of the State, only inter fering to assist and direct, so that the emigration should be spontaneous, rather than artificial. He had shown the progress of the Australian colonies owing to the system which, in a subordinate situation, he had assisted to carry i n t o e ff ect. The rate of 51. per acre for land was as strongly resisted at the time as that of 20s. per acre now. 20s. was the minimum, not the maximum price; the average price of purely agricul tural land at present was not 1/., but 1/. 3s. or 1/. 4s. Contrasting the working of the system adopted in South Australia with that of the system adopted in Port Philip, what was the result? The colony of West Australia was founded some years before that of South Australia. It was formed on the principle of granting land. From that time to this its whole civil establishment had been defrayed by votes of Parliament. It was unable at this moment to pay its own expenses. The popu lation was under 5,000. South Australia, on the other hand, was founded on the principle of selling land, and sending out emigrants ; and, instead of lan guishing like the other, it had been for the last eight years in a state of the most unexampled prosperity. The Noble Earl then proceeded to vindicate the Government from the accusation that nothing whatever had been done consequent upon the address of last year, and as sured his Noble Friend that he was entirely mistaken ; for the Government had been in constant correspond ence with the different colonies upon this important sub ject. He regretted to hear the invidious comparison drawn by his Noble Friend between the conduct of Ca nada and New York in regard to emigration. The truth was that Canada had exerted itself in a most praise worthy manner in the promotion of emigration, and the papers that would be laid upon the table would fully establish that fact. Had his Noble Friend seen those papers he would never have drawn such a distinction. He had always been an advocate of the assisting and guiding emigrants by the Government, and they had been so assisted and guided.; and if the Government were to go further, it would undertake a task beyond its power, and would do more injury than service to emi gration. UNLAWFUL OATHS ACTS (IRELAND) CON TINUANCE AND AMENDMENT BILL. Tho LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second read ing of this Bill, of the objects and purport of which he gave a brief description. The object was to continue the Acts George IV. and 2 and 3 Victoria, with certain amendments. The law as it stood would be sufficient to deal with illegal meetings, without further provisions, if the real character of such meetings could be ascertained, and if it could be discovered what was going on there; but it was impossible, without further enactments, to as certain what was passing at meetings that were secret, and unless a measure could be framed by which the ex tensive conspiracies carried on at clubs and the ramifi cations of societies now extending throughout the country could be suppressed, it was in vain to hope for tranquillity in Ireland.--(Hear, hear.) Their Lordships had seen open war, to some extent, carried on against her Majesty's forces, and this had been ac complished in a great degree by the working of these different societies. The object to be obtained was, ac curate information by which the nature of the societies might be discovered, and the persons guilty of illegal practices at those meetings might be brought before magistrates. This Bill authorised the police to enter the places where meetings were held, and to search for books and papers, which would show their design and character. It had been suggested that the Bill should provide a more immediate remedy against the person; but this was unnecessary, for if the meeting was not secret, and was confined to proper objects, it was legal; but if the books and papers of a society showed that its objects were illegal, then the common law and former Acts armed the Government with sufficient power against persons. So that it was not necessary to alter the provisions of former Acts so far as related to per • sons. The intention of this Bill was to prevent illegal societies from being carried on and holding their meet ings privately. It was true that this Bill sanctioned to some extent an invasion of what was considered the pride and privilege of a British subject; but this was unavoidable, and nothing short of the provisions of this Bill would enable the Government of Ireland to prevent the continuance of societies which had produced so much misery. The Earl of GLENGALL wished that a portion of the Act of 1833 should be inserted in this Bill, which would enable the Government to put down the associa tion at Burgh-quay. Ho had been looking over the Acts 2 and 3 Victoria, and 4 George I V., and it did not ap pear to him that this Bill would have the effect of put ting down clubs the members of which were not " bound by oaths;" he did not know whether they were bound by " other engagements." Perhaps the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Campbell) would afford their Lord ships some explanation upon this point. Lord CAMPBELL said, the Noble Earl seemed to have forgotten that there was such a thing as the com mon lsw. According to the common law of England and Ireland, any meeting for treasonable or seditious pur poses was illegal, and all who attended auol, meeting, were punishable ; but what was wanted was evidence of the fact, and this Bill gave power .to a police officer to enter such meeting, to search the house, and seize books and papers, so as to ascertain what were the objects of the society, and what the meeting was about. Having discovered that, if the Noble Earl at the head of the Irish Government arrested the guilty parties, he (Lord Campbell) would indemnify him against the con sequences without a statute. The Noble Earl (Glen gall) seemed to think that nothing was illegal that was not forbidden by statute; but persons who assembled at treasonable or seditious meetings, though not bound by an illegal oath, if the offence could be proved, were amenable to the law. Lord REDESDALE thought that there was a great objection to au habitual succession of temporary mea sures for the Government of Ireland, and that there was nothing in the 2d and 3d of Victoria which might not be made permanent, after recent experience. However, at that period of the session, ho did not wish to raise any difficulty in respect to the passing of this Bill, but he suggested that it would be expedient to make the Bill run for a longer period than two years. The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be committed on Monday. The Earl of GLENGALL observed, that the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had laid on the table copies of the proclamations issued for the appre hension of certain persons charged with treasonable practices in Ireland. Ho found that ono of those pro clamations offered a reward for the apprehension of Michael Doheny, and he gave notice that on Monday he should put a question to the Government with the view of obtaining information why this Michael Do bony, who had been previously arrested for sedition and sent to Nenagh Gaol, from which ho was bailed out, was not required to appear at the assizes to stand s his trial, no bill being sent up to the grand jury against as that s him? The consequence of this proceedi ng w neither his nor his sureties' recognizan ces were e- I treated. _ The Marquis of CLANRICARDE intimated that the ability of the Government to give an answer to the question on Monday must depend on information on the subject being transmitted from Ireland by that time. PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the reasons given by the Commons for disagreeing with certain amendments made by the Lords to the Public II( nhti 13i11 were ordered to bo printed, The Bill was also or. dered to be reprinted together with the amendments made by the Lords, in order that till. whole matter might be placed before the House in a connected form. The Noble and Learned Lord then gave notice that he should move on Tuesday that the reasons of the Com mons be taken into consideration. The orders of the day on the paper were then dis posed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past Nine o'clock. THE HUSBANDMAN OUGHT TO BE STRONGER THAN THE FARM. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SIR,-My attention has been drawn to an advertise ment for letting two farms, which has appeared in the public journals from Mr. Herbert Prickett, land and es tate agent, Chancery-lane, addressed to tenant farmers, whieh fully bears out the heading of this article, and is conformable to the system adopted by that celebrated farmer Mr. Coke, the late Earl of Leicester. Mr Pricket says--'Application to be made, in the first in stance, by letter from principals only, stating the system of agriculture intended to be observed in the cultivation, stecking, and management of the farm, and the amount of capital per acre the applicant has at his command for that object." Now, when a tenant went to Holkham, to ask for a farm of 1,000 acres, Mr. Coke's first question was, how much capital ho had without borrowing to manage that quantity of land: if the tenant said 5,000/., "then (said the Earl) you shall have 500 instead of 1,000 acres; and as soon as you can raise 10 000/. or 104 per acre, you s h a ll h ave the 1,000 acres; for, no Man ought to take a farm unless he has 10/. per acre to feed plenty of fine oxen and sheep by artificial means in the winter season, and to eat his clover in the summer." The Earl's lands being farmed upon the four-course system, half the farm was always in clover and turnips ; and upon a highly managed farm, where a great deal of the corn grown upon it is converted into beef and mut ton, or oil cake bought to feed the cattle, &c., in lieu of corn, any farmer may make his own guano upon the farm, and thereby avoid adulteration in that ar&cle. A person to keep his cattle and corn to the best advantage, and to buy his cattle at the cheapest rate, requires 101. per acre to start with, to " make the tenant stronger than his farm ;" and this is the sort of tenant Mr. Prickett seems justly to require for his employer. Ho has evidently borrowed a leaf out of the Earl of Leicester's book. The celebrated Mr. Bakewell, of Dishley, the founder of the Leicester sheep, said in his day, that half the land in England was not half farmed from the want of the means to farm it, because there was not half labour enough upon it ; and the beasts, sheep, and horses bred upon it were of the worst kind, because they cost the least in. "No man," said Mr. 8., "ought to breed inferior beasts, sheep, and horses, for they eat as much as the best kinds." To farm land, therefore, as it ought to be, and to stock it as it ought to be with superior kinds of animals, requires a good capital, or the tenant cannot farm it to the best ad vantage. There are many tenants now inquiring for farms who have not above one-third sufficient property to farm and stock them as they ought to be; and such men aro a nuisance upon any Lord's domain. I know a tenant now who is looking out for a farm of 200 acres with a capital only sufficient to manage 50 acres indifferently. Would not such a tenant be a clog upon an estate? Let noble men's stewards guard against such men. In 20 years following 1815, a Noble Lord not 100 miles from Oundle sold three sets of tenants up in one village; the prin cipal part of them never had half capital and ingenuity enough to manage the land. The Noble Lord was of course blamed by many people for selling his needy tenants up, but the fault was not with him. These needy tenants were let into their farms by the blindness of the steward: he required a high rent; they took it, because the rent was not an object to them; they only wanted possession; and good tenants were rejected who did not come up to his mark. It is true, the steward had his remedy against the men of straw by a distress for rent; he came- in first, and swept all away—cattle, corn, goods, &c.—and the butcher, grocer, draper, shoemaker, black smith, and others had only the body of the tenant to sa tisfy their claims! I conceive any steward to act unjustly by taking such tenants in preference to men of property who offer a little less rent per acre. The covetous system of letting lands to pretenders is the entire cause of so much land in England being in such a disgraceful and wretched state. The aristocracy of England must arouse them selves from their lethargy, and look a little more after their own business and interest, or procure stewards who will take better care of their estates, and weigh their tenants before they enter, as the Earl of Leicester did. If they adopted the policy of Mr. Prickett in let ting farms, a great part of England would be farmed and stocked very differently to what it is now. Were noble men to remunerate and handsomely reward the diligent and severely reprimand the slovenly and slothful tenant, and take some of the land from the weak and let it to the strong tenants, who have money sufficient to manage it, a great service would be rendered, not only to themselves as the owners of the soil, but to the community at large, by employing the agricultural labourers, instead of keeping them out of the poor -rates in idleness. From the want of money and labour, more than one-third of Great Britain and Ireland is a wilderness. It has been pub:icly asserted, that the late Earl of Leicester, before a tenant entered upon one of his farms, insisted upon his paying 10/. per acre into the hands of the Earl's banker, to prove that he was worth the money he stated himself to be possessed of. This, of course, placed the Earl upon a very safe and sound footing, and is the cause of the Noble Earl's estates being so ex cessively improved in value by the best of farming. Banbury, August 4, 1848. SAMUEL ARNSBY. THE GERMAN HOSPITAL. DALSTON.—The an milli general meeting of the governors of the above hospital was held yesterday at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate-street. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge was in the chair, supported by his Excel lency Count Kielmansegge, the Hanoverian Minister, B. B. Cabbell, Esq., M.P., and many other friends of the institution. The report of the house committee, read by Dr. Sieveking, stated that the amount collected at' the anniversary dinner and the fancy fair proved how high the institution stood in public favour. In conse quence of the resignation of Dr. Freund, arising out of differences with the committee, a new directing phy sician had to be appointed, and the vacancy had been filled by Dr. Swaine. Amongst the new subscribers to the hospital were his Imperial Highness the Grand Duke Constantine, Prince Waldemar of Prussia, and the Grand Duke of Nassau. The number of in-patients during the year had been 467, and the out-patients 1,918, making a total of 2,385. The year's receipts amounted to 4,1001. 14s. ld., and the expenditure 2,3721. Is. 7d. On the motion of Mr. B. B. Cabbell, M.P., se conded by Mr. Twining, the report was adopted, after which votes of thanks were passed to the several officers of the institution for their past services, and those for tho ensuing year elected. The rules of the hospital were then read through by Mr. Gaedechens, and some slight alterations made. The business concluded with a vote of thanks to his Royal Highness for presiding. MURDER OF TWO CHILDREN. — ROMEORD 7 THURS.. DAY.—A dreadful case of double murder has occurred at Thurrock, a village a few miles to the south of this town, and has occasioned a painful degree of excite ment throughout this part of Essex. The perpetrator of the crime is the wife of a person named Grant, who belongs to the better class of agricultural labourers. Yesterday morning early, the husband being from home, the wife, without any assignable cause, proceeded to carry out the purpose which she appears to have deli berately planned, of murdering the whole of the chil dren. She left her bed, and armed herself with a chopper, or hedge-bill, used by labourers for cutting wood. With this she returned to the chamber, and beginning with the youngest, a girl between two and three years old, laid its neck across the edge of the bedstead and chopped it till the head was almost severed from the body. She then attacked the next, a boy between four and five years of age, in the same way, ID flicti^g dreadful gashes on the back of the neck; but while she was thus engaged, the eldest boy, about eight years of age, escaped from the house, and informed the neighbours, a number of whom rushed to the house, but too late to save either of the two children. The mother was standing over them reeking with blood, and still chopping at them with the bill. She was seized and disarmed, and at orce declared she had murdered the two children, and intended to have murdered the third, if he had not escaped. The only reason she gives for the horrid deed is, that the children were so unruly she could do nothing with them. After she was taken she betrayed some wildness of manner; but the neigh mind. She has been committed on the coroner's war boors state Oast they never coushlerod her of unsound rant to the Essex county gaol. D .Drt N iv o E ß ß T s it . Ll c y n ES W TE e ß d N nes ß da A y l , LW t A h r e with a view to insur e A au N t i' D h li or T E i ti ti E e L s lß O o N f D E O t N N h O e lt:E ' ailway. the safety of the public, issued the following instruc tions to the guards employed on the southern division of t h e li ne :—.‘ Owing to the appointment of , perfectly competent t o t h e schargeeral new of e ngines, n ellg e in g e i r rnn bu e t unacquainted with this line of railway, the upper-guard of the passenger trains on the southern division will, until further orders, ride on the foot-plate of the engine, to assist the engine driver and fireman in keeping a look out for the signals, to inform the driver as he approaches the new laid por tions of the line, and where the regulations of the cam_ pally require the opening of the whistle, as also to make him acquainted with the different gradients as the engine enters upon them. The guard s are enjoined to be watchful and attentive in the performance of this duty, and to apprise the driver th e i nstant the signals come into sight, as also to acquaint him when within a mile of the stations, and remind him whether the train is timed to sa theto p p or t er hat porter r r e v a ba t en o n r ga n n d o a t p . tpaoki T ne t h e c e d h charge of under-guard is to rid e i n rideof the in p t a h r e c e ls, leading ile van of each train, to assist at the st ations • givi ng in down and taking up luggage ; as also to keep a constant look out forward towards the en gine, and the instant the guard upon the engine signals with his hand to have the break applied he is to do so immediately, still keeping his eye upon the guard when to slacken or release it altogether. The guard upon the engine is on the instant he perceives the red signal to signal the porter in the leading van with his hand to apply the break, and by the motion of his hand let this , man know when to slacken or release the break alt-o gether." CGURT OF ALDERMEN.—After the Common Hall was dissolved a Court of Aldermen was held, at which the result of the shrievalty was declared. The City Solicitor gave in the following certificate:—." I have to certify, that in pursuance of the direction of the Court, I made application to Mr. J. R. Mills for payment of 6001. the amount of the fine imposed by the bye-law of the Court for omitting to give bond to take upon himself the office of sheriff, and in consequence of such applica tion I yesterday received the amount, which I shall pay into the hands of the Chamberlain to the account of the City's cash." The Court, after granting several free doms, adjourned. rened Lord low, by to vhich oners ) and was )er to pie !ed . 1. ' t • tLI 9 D ; 1 4f al4