The Sun. — London, England, 1835-05-26 00:00:00

by the pedient cans for iblished to that 0 me et lying a Noble t of di rp, and oppose dishing an Es- Port of it sato-, ;is no - . , hr took place in November, and which were tn renruary k a e s e g .4 ll under the consideration of the House, had not pro th e " "clay, if they had not impeded the course 9f ?eform, as n I the that that Address would Lave been false, and ouit',,`,t e the House ought not to 112,re passed it. But if, on the .r hand, the occurrenc-.s of November have had the effect Ira Peding the ce- Positi o • -arse of safe and useful re . form, thm the whi c h k wk.ch the House is now placed is not a position tr ivet t ue Inajority who voted for that address is at liberty to Itfi t I . te ns• It is t o th ose causes t h at we h ave a r i g ht t o a t otunt positi on .—( Ch eers.) Th e Ri ght Hon. B aronet 14d tnosys that th e i nterva l b etween the month of N ovem b er of L i i a ,e Meeting of Parliament in the month of February, is, P i e Intervals, that which enables the Government to meet tkll"anlent with the best effect. Ido not say that this interval ‘. profitably "er e th spent by the Right Hon. Gentleman, for we th eth en in that anomalous state in which it was doubtful erg ,this country had a responsible Government or not. towel the period to which the Right Hon. Baronet referred, ti, e3 v er, he at least had the advantage of preparing his mea look a nd up to the time when the change of Government iii t. v`ace, he was the responsible person. Sir, the Right L ., Baronet has profited by the concession made by my Not lend who sits near me—a concession applicable t . o a par- It . JO state of things which then existed, but one which the Baronet very ingeniously seemed to consider an Cr *lon on his part that the late Government—that Lord evs • uov ernment—did nothing but l uring forward Incom and ill -di ested measures., Why, Sir, any one who e nd ill g Cre p e e lilght Hon. Baronet, without a previous knowledge % ev :,',,, a et, would have been induced to imagine that Lord Cli,'',4•'‘iovernment had never settled the question of the Bank tik,;tter---that Lord Grey's Government had never settled the Ise tn i ° ll (If the East India Charter—that Lord Grey's Govern ihberd not, through the agency of my Noble Friend who eato w the gang wa y (L or d Stanley) settled the East India The 1.1" --1 10 inc ons id era bl e one i n i tse lf . —( L ou d c h eers. ) Ire „. °ll ° ll rable B aronet hi mse lf w ill not deny—though there !Itoc e - ' e ns not v er y f ar ' f rom hi m w h o will the set teak of the Poor Law question was no inconsiderable ng the g rea t and burdensome measures which that Ad lidelsotflltion undertook ; and Hon. Gentlemen who sit on this "Ic House will at leas t think that the settlement of the I th e ''' a , of Parliamentary Reform was not so unimportant as lelt,adogether excluded from notice or obeervation.—(Re -114,4 cheering.) Well, Sir, in what position do we now find hi? ye s, with respect to the proceedings of the present Ses •bthe cl in the month of May—towards the close of that month •41 1 . 4 -overnment are called upon to propose measures to 4keitlent• Is it wise, or is it just, that they should under to n' t i f a. i would it be wise or just for the House to wish them *lan, ettalte, more than they can reasonably hope to fulfil l 'linl y - ,, t t he Session ?—( Hear, hear.) If we did so, we Fer q, ""Mdd disappoint the just and reasonable expectations ato l l e t Tuttry ; if we did so, then indeed . the taunts of the h hiehßaronet would become applicable to the course Nita "gbtly or wron g ly, h e i m p utes to us , o f b r i ng i ng for ' g re ater number of m easures th an cou ld b e b roug ht t o Isitt"tY withi n t h e S ess i on. If this be blameable in a Govern -1,1 ph„,, d ees he not k now that if in the month of May we were a mge ou rse l ves to the variety of questions on which he ,ed, he would then have us in his power, and that uRa he not complete any on e o f th ose measur e s ; an d s e a not now know that by adopting the course we K e n of selecting two great measures, and proposing s tf : the consideration of Parliament, we have pursued 5t, 00 , 1 -4, the . ut t, and the most satisfactory course ?- 14,,,c cheeringj ) es The Right Hon. Baronet himself can trod a ) % I think, * deny this proposition, because those who in Pit th e sub'ect on his behalf, distinctly stated the prin. set tle that „ 17„„ one question could be more pressing than the • of the question of the Irish Church —(Tremen- L lll4e nr e L r ing• )--It was the first question which the Govern "qt;',,d;t:lc Right Hon. Baronet introduced ; it is the ques -1 "L e n we are now pledged to bring•forvvard ; and lam Nt ewhat surprised that in the great and new-born zeal which 4el,llanifests itself in favour of the Dissenters, we should be • ( 1 1 „P f . e n by the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends,. in ''Y -el le°, to postpone all other claims to theirs. Sir, •(g r e re not the Dissenters' grievances settled long since? and ti t cheering.) Why did not the Right Hon. Baronet, klit it "se concern e d w ith hi m i n th e G overnmen t o f this 01 ,, 1 iY, settl e t h em once and for ever ?—(Renewed Cheers.) i: e ng were they responsible? If they object to us that ~eit ::: Postponed for the present Session the bringing t alse i ;" er ent matters to issue, how will they answer to the , t hat, ',lra for their having postponed during so many e►r"" l e settlement of this question, the adjustment of loud clai ms, and the removal of their grievances ? ki k ' cheers.) Sir, do the Right Honourable Ba lheis a nd those who act with him, think that by tal- s ' ing 'tgl,Zarse they will persuade the Dissew., efs o f ; 11 cee e - ' : that we have not been earn• - . 4 i, in our he )Siw to carry into effect, and work o,'„,t to the utmost, the 04 3 ,. le ciPles of that relief which we—no;, for the first time in 7; 1 _ 18 35, but during the whole period of the organiza bld°v; le Whig party—have felt 'chat the Dissenters of Eng t•ttai were entitled to ? Do tl• e y think that the Dissenters of v e and will be misled or d.,ciaz - led by this new-born zeal? If „,esiculated to prod , iee any impression on their minds for 11 ,,e4 - , ° lnent, I only • 'sh the Dissenters to look back to those h ei r i_ c : a eonf.which hear so much—l mean the records of our '‘ aa, 11:1 - `arY decisions. I say let them do this, and then the tit re ',ttis zeal in their behalf was slumbering at h as ,-;", e that the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts Ire il Loud cheers.) That point upon whi c h we lo t hew all agreed--that point upon which there is now te Perfe ct unanimity of opinion —was then opposed by th s /.e rY individ ua l s who now come forward and tell us, ei theirzealtheir r t. :a r t s t w h h e en D w is e senters, that we are paltering claim s for one postpone the consideration of moment longer.—(Renewed cheering.) there. should be no postponement of the subject, if o bbelieved that during the interval that remains of the ent session we could do more than accomplish the brat obj ects that are before us. It is not because t li k brink from the question—it is not because we are in tjri7nt to th e rights of the Dissenters, that we postpone the iii2"eration o f their claims —it is because we are resolved to 147 1 ;=t• with all due respect for the Right Hon. Baronet, our hi t round of battle.---( Cheers.) We will not accord to ticte 111 be advantag e o f d r i v i ng us from our lines, if we feel it P furtherance o f our pr i nc i p l e, an d more con d uc i ve to (Islet ire interest, that we should fight on our own ground.— tts 4t tw ed cheers.) Sir, we take our stand upon these two de''ell easures. The Right Hon. Baronet knows, I believe, "„, I do, that we could not accomplish more. Perhaps l ' a we might substitute the measure upon which he much stress for one of the measures we have an • -" - -( s Cheers)—Corporation Reform, Sir—( Protracted )---th e question of Corporation Reform—there is our ta• I ° , l contest with the Right Hon. Baronet—there shall be 14 4% 1 of battle —and there we will meet him upon an thbetlanich will be intelligible to the people.—(Tremendous Pa, 1 4 ) boes not that uestion press, or does the Right llosa,....""'M'onet think it might be advantageously postponed? It j?(l n ` - ‘ a ss, Sir, upon certain parties in this country—it presses L *,f,,,r` 4l them ' at the present moment in the shape of inflic- IN Zit which, I trust, our measure will relieve them ; the e s Nly ere sses hard upon others, who would gladly—most Pastpone the discussion, and who, for the purpose th lst, _.antageously acquiring the means of postpone ea.e the Dissenters to the settlement of their claims, 11,'" r e Municipal Reforms. The Right Hon. Baronet o f the Die around him are so perfectly friendly to the claims littleopi -'" isaenters, that really whether it comes a little sooner th;, later, the Dissenters need not be alarmed, because Ilth` t : subject all parties are quite agreed.- . 4 Cheers N a i n u. SI t 6) I hear, however, that on the question of our tote or porations we cannot look for quite so much coinci , 11 , c rab t j f ° Pinion.—( Cheers. ) I believe (said the Right Ho th;e, Gentleman) that in anticipation of the measure I ' L lt /M - y ille s lptd Reform, certain Corporations in the land are Cm ta king' measures to distribute and divide among t7po e r ' % es that which constitutes the common good of the rate s in question, and to divide their lands, in order to t OI, • etit r "'"'s remedial measure, when it does come into opera tts, r-r4 n havin an practical effect.—( Cheers. ) say, t _ t *,it t ,co th e f Diss g en'er y s—and I believe they mill take the ad st'y -•wrentlemen on this side of the House quite as soon as icit • e r . r„. • ll accept that of gentlemen connected with the late sa ii:lent--that it becomes more important for them, that t its, u" e more important for the maintenance of their into gist.•gent the question of Municipal Reform should be, in liev,,,instanceand without delay, settled.—( Cheers.) I 11 - g i l , t n _ i , B point upon which the feelings of the people p to u are most deeply set ; and that if you were to poll L i arefP l e of this country man by man, they would say that f ~,st e l'ln of the Municipal Corporations was second only—if a titt , It be second to any thing—to the other great measure I, iit M which has been introduced and passed into a law.— Zit wld cheers,) Well, then, Sir, it is upon these grounds ; b 15ah.,.• 411 a view to thepractical execution of two important t •auti t i ; r es, rather than to an ineffectual attempt at the settle searkanY other it is with that view that the two measures . Ott, e ' we wish to direct the special attention of . Podia ,lNto, ere the settlement of the Irish Church, including the °f the appropriation of its revenues, and the settlement hit cith, N lunici al Corporations.—(Loud cheers.) Sir, the - 6 11 9 n. Baronet P may, and very possibly will, taunt us 4 .7 pt i h 'lng taken this resolution—a course which may be t •re:l -Y others, though not with his ability or his power. We iSoi t i t : t he people of England ; we tell them that in May we l l ' a l e to accomplish more than those two great mea- L a ti t ti "e ask •ou do ou wish to see the Irish Church -°ll settled ? ) We ' ask y you, do you wish to see the munici -1 ylnitutions of the country modified. If you do, we think 44!ee )' s t of 'Parliament, we may be enabled to e uppor_ g„'sn ( . 1 these two measures? if we try to effect more in ps o t ' %quell is before us, we fear we shall fail not only in terL l 'oe t „, l 'o, but bathei the proper subjects to which our attention . is not ' tnemseli but by gentlemen who know full well that Ih ev cra rn „ es' in April, and commencing poser Pro - a. , restored to office ce edings at the end of May, is not to atz t ia11 (1 h it does not hypen to be in the same situateon as 1 , • i t a/c been in, if no change had taken place in Novem- Z t o h ill „aY be a fair Parliamentary taunt, but it is no moral t va . i 4 to e- t hat the Right Hon. Baronet has thrown out, if one of * * N o arm the proposition that we stand in the middle c *session In the same position as if no charge had taken place. e t ilb -a t i` ri i . t also our position - as we have already stated ; we t's'r ed forward the two great measures to . which I have o Z i ed n ' It will be for the country to decide whether we % IR i": l e wisely in directing their attention to those great *...ely.4°lll(nt objects, or . whether we should have acted more ta i :N 'nore n benefictally e In adopting to the urse recom 'l those who ar opposed us.— co ( Protracted ,ri wy g•.) Pp. III44 I;iI IL ICS considered th© two measures which Govern -44t-Issinb,' an nounced their intention of bringing forward, most -Antl o ,, iMPortant the one would give peace to Ireland - "nas "11- 'lna a me — asure of Reform, without which the Bill itself would be paralyzed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) h ame wished that the Dissenters' claims bad not c -een postponed—but, deeply impressed with the importance of the other questions, he was content to give them his most ordial sunrort; Mr. Tft EVOR was of opinion that the DisSenters of Eng land would not be satisfied with the announcement made by Majesty's Ministers. Dr. BOWRING said that the Dissenters knew who were their real friends—and expressed his conviction, that they would not press their clainis, when their so doing might re tard the progress of the important measures that had been ad verted to. Mr. POTTER also bore testimony to the willingness of the Dissenters to postpone urging their claims until they could be more advantageously conceded, Mr. EWA RT strongly urged the necessity of Municipal Reform. Since the passing of the Test and Corporation Acts not one Dissenter had been admitted into the Corporation of Liverpool. Mr. M. PHILIPS was desirous to see the Church of Eng land and the Dissenters, united in the bond of peace and concord.---( Hear.) He feared, however, that the adoption of such proceedings as had given rise to the present discussion would only foment and perpetuate differences which they all deplored. Mr. PEA SE said that the Dissenters of the county of Durham, and he believed he might add of England generally, were willing to wait for some well-digested measure from those whom they considered their firm friends. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL contended that the con duct of the churchwardens was. aecording to the present state of the law, illegal as well as oppressive. Before the passing of the Act 53 Geo. 111., the remedy allowed by law in cases of refusal to pay Church-rates, was only to be obtained by pro ceedings in the Ecclesiastical Courts, and the penalty of re fusal was excommunication. nut Lord Stowell brought in the Bill in question, by which it was required that all cases for arrears of Church-rate under 101. should be brought before the Justices, so that to that extent the jurisdiction of the Ec clesiastical Courts in the matter of Church-rates was for ever taken away. But what was the conduct of the Churchwardens in this case ? Instead of bringing the ease before the Jus tices, they took out a writ de contuniace capiendo in the Ec clesiastical Court, thereby acting illegally as well as op pressive. Mr. LAW said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had al leged that the conduct of the Churchwardens had been not only illegal but wilfully oppressive. Now he (Mr. Law) en tirely denied the correctness of that statement. He was in formed that the Churchwardens, before sending Childs to pri son, had offered, rather than proceed against him, to take the seventeen shillings and six-pence simply, and that they would pay the costs out of their own pockets. Now this showed that in what they did the Churchwardens were moved by no other than the most proper motives, namely, the faithful discharge of their duties.—( Hear.) He was disposed to concur with the Hon, and Learned Attorney-General as to the vie* Which he took of the state of the law. -- hear.) He was free to admit that the course which ought to have been pursued was to have summoned the defendant before two magistrates. After a few words from Mr. COBBETT, which were inaudible, Dr. LUSHINGTON would tell the House who was to blame in this case. The Churchwardens in the first place ; and the judge of the Ecclesiastical Court in the second place. —( Hear.) It was the duty of the judge of the Ecclesiastical Court to have read the statute; and it ought to be known, that the judge had sent a man to ll jail because he Was ignorant of the statute-law.---( hear.) e ttusled that the time would soon arrive when the Dissenters would be relieved of these grievances ; but he would be no party to holding out false hopes that the relief could at once be effected, In the large constituency of which he (Dr Lushington) represented, there was perhaps the greatest body , of Dissenters that was to be found among any constituency in the kingdom; and he be lieved that, with scarcely a single exception, they were all his friends and supporters. To those Dissenters he would say, that if he thought the Government was not inclined to do them justice—if he found the Government remiss, and without the desire of consulting the interests and wishes of the dissent ing body—if he observed any symptoms of their falling back in their opinions—if they said now that there were reasons why they should resist the claims of the Dissenters—if he found that they were toying with their former political sentiments—he would state what course he should fctliow in such a case, and he had no doubt but his constituents would believe him when he said so—he would be the first to expose those men to disgrace and reprehension, who had first availed themselves of the assistance of the Dissenters to get into office, and then deserted them.—(Hear, hear.) But if this was his opinion of the feelings and intentions of the pre sent Government, his place would be, not where he then was, but upon the other (the Opposition) side of the House— ( Hear, hear); and nothing that his lungs could utter should be considered too strong in upbraiding them for their decep tion. He was convinced, however, that the Government were sincere in their intentions to give effective relief, and that could not be done by hasty or ill-digested measures.--( Hear, hear.) He had on a former night declared the absolute ne cessity of delay, and he now repeated, that if they wished to grapple with this subject like senators and men of wisdom, they must view it in all its bearings, and consider all the sub jects connected with it, before they effected a reform which was likely to be satisfactory. He would say, that this could not be done this session : but although it could not be done, they could pass a resolution pledging the House at the earliest possible period next session to take the grievances of the Dis senters into consideration, with a view of giving them complete and effectual redress.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. C. PELHAM deprecated discussion upon a subject which might be brought before another tribunal. Mr. PRAED defended the Churchwardens from the charge of having been wilfully oppressive. Mr. PR YME ridiculed the idea of the Churchwardens having, on the plea of fairness and humanity, clapt the un fortunate man into prison rather than bring him before a magistrate, who happened to be a clergyman. By such an excuse they added hypocrisy to the cruelty. Mr. BAINES thought the country was much indebted to Mr. Childs, the petitioner, for the firmness and decision that he had displayed in support of his principles at a critical juncture, and for the petition before the House, which had eli cited the information which had been given, as to the inten tions of the Government, by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Mr. HARDY was not acquainted with either of the two gentlemen who had adopted the proceedings against Mr. Childs, but he thought that a most unfair attack had been made on them. _ _ Mr. C. BULLER never recollected any case of in justice or oppression brought before the House, in which some gentleman did not come forward and assert that the persons against whom that complaint was brought were most humane characters, and were actuated by the purest motives. These persons had adopted a most extraordinary mode of showing their humanity towards Mr. Childs. From the individual question respecting Mr. Childs, the attention of the House had been called to the general question of the injustice of conti nuing the present law respecting Church-rates. His attention, however, had also been directed to another great question, namely—the constitution of the tribunal by which Mr. Childs was subjected to these iniquitous proceedings.—(Hear.) It appeared that Mr. Childs had been illegally brought before this Ecclesiastical Court, for the paltry sum of 17s. 6d. ; and according to the Learned Civilian (Dr. Lushington) than whom there could not be a better authority on the subject, the expenses would amount to at least 161. He asked how long his Majesty's Ministers intended to allow the present system in the Ecclesiastical Courts to be con tinued ? The Government he trusted would at once give some information on this point. He was satisfied that if they did not bring forward some effectual measure of Reform with respect to these Courts, they would lose the confidence of the country. He was the more anxious upon the point, as some of his constituents had been injured by the oppressive conduct of the Ecclesiastical Court—indeed the oppression on this point was very great in the West of England. Lord JOHN RUSSELL answered the question, but, in consequence of the low tone of voice in which he spoke—as well as from the noise made in the side-gallery, by three or four Members—not a word that he said was audible in the gallery. The petition► was then laid on the table. BOROUGH OF TIVERTON—NEW WRIT. Mr. HE ATH COTE moved that a new writ be issued for a Member to serve in the present Parliament for the borough o Tiverton, in the room of J. Kennedy, Esq., who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. LEGAL APPOINTMENTS IN IRELAND. Mr. A. TREVOR wished to put a question to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, which he con sidered of paramount importance at the present moment, and which the public looked to with great interest. He would not allude to the various report. , it circulation beyond —( Cries of " Question I") Reports, however, were in gene ral circulation respecting certain appointments connected with the Government, and these had been strengthened, and partly confirmed, by ail expression used the other night by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He wished to know whe ther the legal appointments connected with the Irish Govern ment had, previously to their being confirmed, been submitted, either directly or indirectly, to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin for his approbation ?—( Great laughter, and ge neral cries from the Ministerial benches of " Don't answer.") No person rose to answer the question. Lord Viscount HO WICK presented a petition from the owners and occupiers of land in Northumberland, respecting agricultural distress, and praying for relief. Similar petitions were presented by Sir Eardley from Warwickshire; by an Hon. Member, whose name we did not know, from various places in Yorkshire ; and by the Mar quis of Chandos, from several places in Buckinghamshire and Bedfordshire.—Laid on the table. . The Earl of DARLINGTON had to present a similar petition from Shropshire, signed by 1,400 farmers. The pe titioners prayed that they might, either by means of drawbacic or license, be allowed to make malt for their own consumption. He trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not oppose so reasonable a request. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was afraid it would be found impracticable to grant any such request. He admitted that the agricultural interest laboured under great depression, and he lamented the situation of the farmer ; and he could assure the Noble Lord that nobody was more anxious than himself to relieve the farmer from the burdens that pressed on him. He repeated that it would be imprac ticable to grant what was demanded ; for the inevitable result would be—a result which he was sure that no friend to the agricultural classes would feel satisfied with—the spread of illicit distilling throughout the country. Mr. SINCLAIR trusted that the Noble Lord would give the House some more specific information than he had hitherto done respecting the Irish Tithe question, and when he was likely to bring it before the House. Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that it was the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to propose a measure on the subject as soon as possible. This measure would be brought under the consideration of the House in a very short time. His Noble Friend, the Secretary ior Ireland would give notice on the subject in the course of a few days. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. An HON. MEmfiEtt as i te ,:, l whether it was intended to lay the whole of the Reports of the Comm;;;;.; brought Corporations forward bef befog o_ners of Municipal they M i N b o e ble r the . hands of Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that a ediitildetofle por tion of the Report had been printed, and was in Members, and the rest was being printed as expeen;:-T d ! p L r o e f irrus to the uicasure being as possible. THE ARCHBISHOP OF DUBLIN. An HON. MEMBER wished to know frotti the Noble Lord whether the Archbishop of Dublin had not intimated to his Majesty's Ministers that he intended to resign his seat at the Education Board; in consequence of the notice which the Noble Lord had given as to the appropriation of any surplus which might arise from the Irish Church ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that the question put to him was not one that he could conveniently answer at any !ength. He would only say, that since he had accepted the office which he at present held, several confidential communica tions had passed between the Archbishop of Dublin and him self on the subject of the appropriation of any surplus fund that might arise from a new arrangement respecting the Irish Church, and that that Right Rev. Prelate almost entirely ac corded in the views entertained by himself on the subject— ( Loud cries of " Hear hear.) ISLE OF MAN. Lord SANDON was anxious to put a question to the Pre sident of the Board of Trade. He wished to know whether his Right Hon. Friend intended, in the course of the present session, to propose any change in the system of trade with that island? Mr. C. P. TH OM SON had already given notice of his intention to introduce a Bill to put the trade of the Isle of Man on a very different footing from what it was at present. Under the circumstances he did not believe that period of the session would admit of their . going into the question generally. He agreed with the Noble Lord that the system of trade at the Isle of Man required alteration, and he should be most happy to give his best assistance to carry into effect such alte rations as would remove the grounds of the complaints now made, . _ (77, / THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 26, 1835. v . farmer, and immediate relief was what he required. Indeed, it was the duty of the House to brave all difficulties, and to go to the root of the evil. It would be found that the contrac tion of the currency was the root of the evil. Lord J. RUSSELL began to address the House in a very low tone. He had always witnessed the Noble Marquis to bring forward his motions respecting agricultural distress, whatever Ministry might be in office, coolly and deliberately, and he had no doubt bona fide, with a view to draw from Government some expression of opinion respecting the burden of taxation under which the farmer laboured. On the present occasion he would not impute to the Noble Marquis any mo -- hut that of a sincere desire to promote the cause he had so _ ably undertake... 1 - of the Noble Marquis, and of the , - With regard to this motion, however, it was avowedly, both in the ham.. . must fall heft of af- Noble Lord who seconded it, one fording that relief from distress the farmer -2 'uired: The Noble Marquis stated the farmer was labouring unue': very great distress, and he proposed a relief' of' local taxation. It was not proposed that that should go beyond the amount of surplus revenue stated to have been in hand by the Noble Lord, and afterwards by the Right Hon. Baronet, the two late Chancellors of the Exchequer. The Marquis of C HAN DOS did not bind himself to that. Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that though the Noble Marquis might not in terms have bound himself to that, he must consider, that as neither the mover nor the seconder of the resolution had made any other distinct proposition—as nei ther of them had brought forward either of those two great questions—the commutation of taxation, or the alteration of the currency—he would consider the present discussion limited to the extent he had stated. During Earl Grey's Adminis tration, a Committee was appointed to inquire into the agri cultural distress of the country. That Committee was very fully attended by many gentlemen connected with the landed interest, and the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumber land was Chairman of it. The Committee, after a laborious investigation, made a report, which ended in saying that they reckoned more on the forbearance than on the active interposi tion of Parliament, in order to effect relief to the distressed agriculturists. That certainly was not recommending any very active relief of any very extensive kind. The report made another assertion, the accuracy of which no person could doubt, and which went to the very foundation of agricultural distress, namely, that while the outgoings of the farmer were consi derable, and the price of his produce much diminished, the burs dens, consisting of county rates, and so on, had very much in creased. This undoubtedly was the case. In 1791 the general average of wheat was about 475. ; in the beginning of 1793 it was forty-one shillings. In the years 1833 and 1834, the prices had not been very different ; and he had been informed that the present average price was be low 40s. While the prices had come back to what they were in 1792 or 1793, the present burdens were very much more heavy and oppressive. Instances of this were given in the eport of the committee appointed on this subject last year, some of which the Noble Lord detailed. He would observe, with respect to the report of the sub-committee that was also appointed, that report stated that the expense of the prosecu tions which took place—the prosecutions being of a public na ture—ought to be defrayed, at all events in part, by the public, and recommended that the expense should be the expense of the assizes, and not of the quarter sessions. To that proposi tion there was the objection, that such a system would hold out a direct inducement to commit prisoners to the assizes and not to the quarter sessions, although perhaps an answer to that might be, that it would be necessary and requisite to dis tinguish between offences. There was another question in re lation to this subject of the very highest importance, upon which the recommendation of the committee could not be adopted without the very fullest consideration—he meant the expediency of introducing a public prosecutor into all our trials. From all he himself had heard, L-e was inclined to think that it would much improve the practice of the law if they adopted in some respect that practice. But still it ought not to be adopted and partially, and at once; it should rathe r be introduced g raduall y partially, by way of experiment , a t first. But there was an other reason for not adopting the conclusion of the Select Committee. In considering the proposition made by that Committee, it appeared that they might in another way give a relief greater than that which they had contemplated. For instance, that Committee proposed to relieve counties from the expenses incidental to assize prosecutions, to the amount of 67,000 f. ; from the expenses of convicts, to the amount of 15,006/. ; end with respect to county-rates and expenses at quartet...session' to the extent of 64,0001 . , ma kin g in all 146,0001. INio;:' the proposal which he had to make was to take the half of that whole sum, including the expenses of assizes and quarter-sessions, zrid pay one half of it out of the the course Le general revenues of the State. we understood the Noble •dible tone . in which Lord, but the extremely indistinct and he spoke rendered it frequently impossible for us, of his speech, to catch even the general purport of his bser vations.) With regard to gaols, that question was alreaay before a Committee in the other House of Parliament, and might properly be made the subject of a separate Bill. It was the intention of Government to propose such a measure as would insure uniformity cf discipline, and when that great object had been secured, it would be time to consider whether the expense should in part be borne by the public. Before he left the subject of county-rates and the recommendations of that committee, of which he bad the honour of being a mem ber, he might be permitted to mention that very great and important economical improvement which would result from the appointment of a finance committee of magistrates in every county, by insuring a regular audit and examina tion of accounts, and by taking, when it was necessary, a new valuation. Of this lie would only mention a single instance which had happened within his own personal know ledge, that in the county of Devon the expenses of felons Ind prisoners had been actually reduced three-fourths by the efficient superintendence of such a local finance committee—a measure which could in all cases be carried into effect by cities themselves without the aid or intervention of Parliament. He had now explained the views he entertained with respect to county-rates. The local burdens which pressed peculiarly upon agriculture might be divided into coun t y -rates, tithes, and poor-rates. With respect to the commutat ion of tithes, it had been undoubtedly under tile consideration of Government, and it had indeed been agreed to bring forward some measure on the subject; but great difficulty was found in making a compul sory settlement of the question, dependent as it must be upon the ratio of payment for a certain number of by-gone years. The Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel), for the purpose of ,voiding all the difficulties which enveloped the subject, pro posed to introduce a Bill for the voluntary commutation of tithes. He ( Lord J. Russell) did not, however, think that such a measure could be generally carried into effect, and espe cially in those places where the greatest irritation prevailed. What he should have to propose upon that subject was, that a -,elect Committee should be appointed, embracing various Members from different parts of the country, representing the various interests of those who were liable in particular districts to the payment of tithes, for no compulsory measure could be droperly and finally settled unless it were examined by some I ,ody of men before whom the various claims and interests of the different tithe-payers were fairly heard. There was ano ther topic to which the Noble Lord adverted—poor-rates, from the law in reference to which, that had been passed last Ses ,ion, he did not seem to think much relief had been given. Now upon that subject he very widely differed from the Noble Lord. All the information which he had received was of pre cisely an opposite character and tendency. Although tilt: Peer. Law Amendment Bill was only partially in operation, an would not come into complete and general operation for some ime, yet, so far as averages could be taken, there was a con iderable diminution of the burden of poor-rates, and the re lief which had been afforded was of a kind which he thought must be considered most satisfactory. Ile had some statements upon this subject, which had been drawn up with great atten tion and care, and with all the experience which the commis sisners were possessed of, which tended to show practically the working of the new Poor Law Bill. For instance, there was an average taken of 165 parishes in Berks and Sussex, in which the expense of maintaining the poor for the year ending March, 1834, was 79,4981., and during the same period, till March, 1835, the charge was only 69,4331„ showing a diminution of no less than one eighth. If this great diminution could be reckoned on generally, which he thought, when the Bill was in complete operation, he might fairly expect, there would be a saving of not less than 1,000,000/. to the country. His expectation was, that before long he should be able to state there had been a diminution to that amount, and in that par ticular direction no one could doubt it would be of the very highest value. But what was of more importance than even the amount of money saved was the moral effect which the operation of the Bill had on the character, particularly, of the agricultural labourer. The great evil which had been fully acknowledged by all who had practically studied the question, was the vast quantity of what had been called surplus labour, which the farmers were obliged to give to those half sup ported by the parishes, and whom they would not otherwise have employed. It had been found in many parishes, that no sooner was it proposed that those labourers should, in place of country, being supp orte d b y t h e par i s h , go to t h e wor kh ouse , t h an t h e greaterad not ry, part of th em i mme di a t e ly f oun d e mployment. They h but become wer evagra employed nts by orl lawless e f s a s rm persons conducted them selves th e coi properly, and received increased wages.--( Hear.) Such were the effects he had expected from the change effected in the poor laws ; those who formerly received money for work which to the farmers was worth abso lutely nothing, many of them being men whom the farmers could not employ, were now really employed, the farmers finding their labour highly beneficial. He would give only one more instance' of a parish (Bledlow, as we un d erstoo d) i n t h e county o f B uc k s , w ith which the Noble L or d was acqua i nte d, w h ere b y or d er o f the commis sioners i t h a d b een propose d t h at a num b er o f paupers then unemployed should go to Manchester, whither they had, in fact, migrated, and were now receiving double their former wages. Twenty more were now anxious to follow their exam ple, and the burdens of the parish had actually been reduced more than one half. Such was the nature of the information he bad to communicate to the House with respect to the workin g of the Poor Law Bill, from which the Noble Lord ( Chandos) seemed to expect but little relief. For his own part, he had felt that the Government of the day, in introducing such a measure, were not certainly adopting so popular a course as if they had taken o ff 2,000,0001. or 3,000,0001. of taxes ; but u lti ma t e ly h e f e lt p ersua d e d a more beneficial effect would b e pro d uce d b y i t t h an b y any su ch reduction, while the val ue o f l a b our wou ld b e mater i a lly augmented, and the condition of the p e a san t mos t e xtensively improved.--( Hear, hear.) Wh en t h e H on. M em b er f or Oldh am br oug ht for ward hi s mot i on on t h e su bj ect , lie should be pre, eared with materials t o l a y b e f ore th e H ouse , by which, on tha evidence of th e Commissioners, he should be able to shew what the actual operation of the Bill had been ; and he believed he shovld then be able to establish that, so far from its befits a Bill, as the Hon. Member chose to represent it, tending to make th e i n d epen d ent l a b ourer li ve on worse an d cea r s er food, it was calculated, on the contrary, to raise the cha racter, and i • mpros e the wages of the labourer, making him feel in its true value and importance that independence AGIRICULTURAL The Marquis of en A fib oSrose for the third time to ad dress the House on the behalf of the English farmer, and he did so on this occasion in the hope of inducing the House to give their assent to a measure which he conceived would afford great relief to the farmer s without interfering with the motion which was to be iritrddtited by another member of the House on a subsequent day. It was impossible for any man to con ceal from himself the desperate position in which the English farmer Wa4 now placed—( Hear, hear) ; and looking at the situation in which lie was plaided in former years, no country gentleman tit least, Who ,Was Continually seeing his old tenants obliged to give up their faring, *tad deny that some measure of relief was absolutely necessary. Under the CireilMstances in which he stood it was difficult for him now to bring forward :Thy iiieastifd of Coti6l&jrable relief to the agriculturist. The plan he had to propose was no definitive iiiealift, it would only give the farmer relief for the present, but he hoped that at a future time, and that no distant period, the House would grant a larger measure atelier to the distressed farmer. The House would re colleht that sittet the time of Oectge 111., the county rates had been greatly increased, and the ftirhierS had teen burdened with the charges of building and repairing bridgeS In the Bounty, and of giving statute labour on the highway. By the way. he would ObserV€, that a eommutation of tithes was expected to have the effect of relieving the farfiltr, but it certainly had been shown to=night ; that it was not the intention of the Go vernment to proceed with any Other measure this session, than those they had already given notice of their intention to bring in. He thought himself that a commutation of tithes Would be a medium of great and considerable relief to the occupiers of the soil, and he therefore earnestly hoped the Noble Lord would pass some measure of this kind during the present ses sion. But he was diverging from his own proposition. He must confine himself to stating to the House his plan for re lieving the farmer from the pressure of local taxation. When they considered the present price of produce—that wheat was now at 45., which last year was at 65., and that the diminu tion in the price was not sudden or temporary, but had for a long period been gradually decreasing, he thought the House would be disposed to admit that they ought to re lieve the land as much as possible from local, as well as gene ral taxation. At the present moment he held in hand a calculation made by Mr. George Sinclair, which showed that, in 1800, the price of wheat was 110 s. ; in 1812, 1225.; in 1833, 555. ; in 1834, 445. : and in 1835, 38s. The House would judge for itself from this regular descending scale, in the remuneration which the farmer had obtained for his produce, whether the time had not at length arrived when some relief must be given to him, if he was any longer to cultivate the land for a subsistence. Even the low price which he did get for his produce was reduced still lower by foreign importations. Looking at the Mark-lane account, he per ceived that there were 515 quarters of foreign wheat, and 33,490 quarters of Irish oats, besides a very large quantity of bonded corn and flour, lately imported. He would suggest to the Government, that they should purchase the foreign corn that came into the market, and bond it under the King's seal, so that a preference might, if possible, be given to the produce of the English farmer. He merely threw out this as a sug gestion ; he knew the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not partial to the plan, but he hoped the Government would take it into their serious consideration. The ground on which he stood on the present occasion was very narrow. His present motion was restricted solely to the relief which the removal of local taxation would afford the farmer, the question of the currency being in the hands of another Member of the House. In the general charge of county-rates, the farmer severely felt the heavy pressure of the maintenance of prisoners in gaol, and out of the same source came the funds for building and repairing the bridges in the county. Added to this he was compelled to perform statute labour on the highway. He begged that the Chancellor would look to the report of the committee on county-rates, and then take these charges off the land—throw the rates on the general charge of the country.—( Hear, hear.) Was it not fair that the pub lic, who passed over bridges constructed at an expense of 100,0001. or 200,0001., should contribute their quota towards defraying their costs ? Again, the prosecution of felons and the maintenance of prisoners in gaol should not be forced up on the farmer ; that also should be a national charge.—( Hear, hear.) The same observations applied to the performance of the statute labour on the highways. He thought it most unfair that the farmer should be obliged t 6 send men, whom he could be profitably employing on his own farm, to make roads for the convenience of the public, who contributed no thing towards the expense of keeping . them in repair. Thus much for the subject of the local taxation of the farmer. With regard to general taxation, he would call the attention of the House to the fact that the Noble Lord the late Chancellor of the Exchequer made some reductions in favour of the farmer, which, though small, were to a certain degree very beneficial. He took off the duty on windows in farmhouses under 200/., and on horses used in husbandry on farms under 5001., and reduced the duty on farm servants under 18 years of age. By the first of these reductions the Noble Lord estimated that the revenue would lose 35,0007., by the second 10,000/., and by the last 20,0001. Now, trifling as this was, and trifling as he (the Marquis of Chandos) thought it to be, he hoped the House would agree to take off the remainder of those taxes. If a farmer went to market in a cart without springs, he was not taxed for it ; but if it should so happen that it had springs or a cushion, he was immediatel3 taxed. This ought not to be. The relief, indeed, would not be great, but still the present law on this subject was an inconvenienco to him. He might, perhaps, be told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the surplus revenue would not permit to accede to his plan, but he had been told by so many Governments, at so many times, that they were unable to give any large measure of relief, that he hoped he should not be met by a negative to this small propo sition. He should have preferred bringing forward the ques tion of the malt tax, but on a recent occasion so large a ma jority of the House had decided against its repeal, that he felt it was quite useless for him to advocate it, and he should be the last person in the world to take up the time of the House in what could not lead to any profitable result. But what he wanted to do was to impress upon the mind of the House the necessity of extending relief to the British farmer. He had but one object in this instance ; this was no party question ; it was not not from party motives that he brought it forward, but to do good to the country at large, and he hoped that Mi nisters would do him the justice to believe that no other object had induced him to come forward.—( Hear, hear.) When the whole of the agricultural part of the country was pressing forward for relief, when the pauper population was disturbed, when the poor laws were failing in many instances to prove so successful as had been expected—(Cries of " No, no")—he would repeat that in many instances the poor laws were not proving so successful as had been expected—it was certainly necessary for Government to introduce some mea sure of relief. He should not have another opportunity during the present Session of bringing on this question, and he had now brought it forward in a modified way. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had ample means of protecting the farmer to the extent now sought : and when large quan tities of foreign butter, cheese, and other articles of con sumption, were daily poured into this market, some steps ought to be taken to secure a proper remunerating price to the farmers of this country, who also brought these articles into the market for home consumption. There were besides other articles requiring to be protected, in which the Scotch farmers were more particularly interested, and those were clover and other seeds, of which large importations annually took place. He would again repeat, Government was• in a position to give the trifling relief he now asked on behalf of the farmers, and he trusted there would be no objection to it. In the course of another session Government might rest as sured he would ask for considerably more than he now did. He concluded by moving, " That an humble address be pre sented to his Majesty, expressing the deep regret this House feels at the continuing distressed state of the agricultural in terests of this country, to which the attention of Parliament was called by his Majesty's most gracious speeches from the throne, at the commencement of the preceding and of the pre sent session of Parliament, and humbly to represent the anxious desire of this House that the attention of his Majesty's Government may be directed without delay to this subject, with a view to the immediate removal of some portion of those burdens to which the land is subject, through the pressure of general and local taxation." The Earl of DARLINGTON seconded the motion. From what had been stated by the Right Hon. Baronet who had lately held the office of Prime Minister, an d w h o was not one who was likely to raise hopes that might be disapp o i n t e d, he was sure that if that Right Hon. Baronet had remained in office, something, by this time, would have been done for the effectual relief of the farmers of this country. As to the pour Law Bill, it might he useful hereafter, but he could not see any immediate relief that was likely to flow from it to the z.e which he had formerly in a great degree lost, and obtain bet ter food than in those extremely pauperized districts, where he lived on a most wretched subsistence, having little or no work to perform. He would not go further at present into this subject, but would content himself with alluding to that other point which had been touched on by the Noble Lord—the re duction of public and general taxation. It had always been his opinion that those local burdens of which he had spoken, the poor-rates, tithes, and the county-rate, were those bur dens on which the greatest impression could be made by local economical management, as well as by wise and prudent mea sures introduced into Parliament. But it was not by Acts of Parliament that any such a reduction of general taxation could be effected as would in its present state benefit agriculture. It must be admitted, he thought that substantial relief could not, as regarded general taxation, be afforded to agriculture ; and that being admitted, the Malt Tax not being .to be re pealed, and there being scarcely any other tax that could be -id peculiarly to affect agriculture, he thought they would out a most fallacious and delusive hope, if th e y be hOldn ". l b '""S to give their immediate attention to gene pledged themsei.- P b . agriculture, with a view to its re ral taxation as it affectet. nrop l osed one or two things moval. The Noble Lord ha.. substantial relief ; his which certainly could not afforcfmus, - .! intention being only to convince the farm,: that his distress was really felt by the Legislatare. Now he symp.,:!bi?ed with the farmer most sincerely, and he could not but think that a reduction of rent would be the most effectual of all relief which could be administered to him. He very well remem bered the ridicule with which the Noble Lord had assailed his Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer (now Lord Spencer) when proposing to repeal the tax on shepherd's does—(a laugh)—and he was rather surprised at finding the Noble Lord ( Chandos), in his temporary character of Chan cellos of the Exchequer, following the steps of his Noble Friend so very closely on the present occasion, as to dwell pathetically on the grievance of a farmer's being obliged to go to market in a cart without springs, lest it should be sub ject to duty, as a thing which in its alteration would afford any very substantial relief to agriculture.—( A laugh.) The fact was, no such custom prevailed as farmers going to market in such vehicles, and he was quite surprised at the statement of the Noble Lord. Upon a whole view of the subject, he should beg leave to move, by way of amendment to the Noble Lord's resolution, that all the words be left out after the word " that," for the purpose of inserting the following—" That this House will direct its early attention to the recommenda tions of the Committee which sat last session of Parliament upon the subject of County-rates, with a view to the utmost practicable alleviation of those burdens to which the land is subject through the pressure of local taxation."—( Hear, hear.) The question having been put, Mr. COBBETT said the Noble Lord had referred to the motion of which he (Mr. Cobbett) had given notice with re spect to the Poor Law Amendment Bill, with the view, no doubt, by anticipating, to prejudice that motion and render it, if possible, abortive. And what was the information which he had submitted to the House to illustrate the operation of that measure? From whom had it been derived? Why, from the Commissioners themselves. How often had that House been deluded by the statements of Commissioners? Nothing was so absolutely monstrous. The Commissioners, he dared say, would tell them they were doing a great deal — no doubt. What had they their salaries for ? They were, in fact, pleading for their salaries—they were writing for their salaries, and they gave their evidence for the purpose of making the House and the country believe that they had earned some thing. He maintained that in respect of savings, never would there be so much saved except by acts of sheer cruelty as the amount of the salaries paid to the Commissioners. The re port of those Commissioners in which the Bill had been introduced was full of falsehoods from beginning to end ; it had been contradicted by Magistrates, by country gen tlemen, in pamphlets, and in paragraphs innumerable. There was a union in Sussex of 36 parishes, of which the Duke of Richmond was the chairman. He held in his hand their printed bill of fare •, let any gentleman read that docu ment.—( Cries of " Read, read.") Let them read it them selves—( Loud laughter)—and they would see how the savings were effected. This was the Duke of Richmond's bill of fare.—( Renewed cries of " Read, read.") Why were they so impatient? Here was a boy, and gentlemen would recollect that some of them were only grown boys,—a boy from three to ten years of age, and at the latter age he would eat as much as a man—had on Sunday 12 ounces of bread made of flour which cost ss. a bushel, half-a-pint of milk gruel, 7 ounces of rice, and another half-pint of milk gruel for supper. What was the bill of fare for a man 2—(Cries of " Read, read.") He had seven men at his farmhouse, and there was not one of th . em who did not eat more substantial food for his breakfast or dinner one day than the Duke of Richmond's bill of fare allowed a man for a whole week.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord had only to submit for one week to the treatment and diet prescribed by the Duke of Richmond's bill of fare, to be for eve,• convinced of the severity and cruelty of the Poor Law . Ansendme.:.t. Bill. The Noble Lord had stated that lie (Mr. Cobbett) had rs. t . seeesented the Poor Law Bill as tending to make the poor live oi, a coarser sort of food ; he had never so represented it ; all he hat, said was that such had been it:- and the barrister who drew tended by those who invented tt, " it up had in his printed instructions tt1.17 It is passage : de sirable so to frame the law, as to cause the ;working people to live on a coarser sort of food." The Noble Lora, then Chan cellor of the Exchequer, denied it, but he (Mr. c o b b ,:_t) had himself seen the document ; he had moved for it in the mgt.:: lag way; let it be produced, and the document would speak for itself. A spaniel dog should be allowed more than was by the system assigned to a man ; the system was monstrous, and it ill became a Noble Duke, drawing 12,0001, a year from the land of the country, to sanction it. Upon the other topics which had been alluded to, he should not lon g detain the House. He saw no prospect of relief to the farmers, even from the proposition of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord was deceived as to the relative amount of what was complained of. In his own case he paid 1601. rent, 28/. tithes, 311. poor rates, 41. county-rates, 3/. los. road-rates, and 270/. wages ; but a small portion of the outgoings of a farmer consisted of road and county-rates, and making them a present of them altogether, they would not be effectually relieved. lie ac knowledged that he could not help feeling much surprised that any Hon. Member should treat tithes as a burden deeply affect ing the landed interest ; it might be expedient to reform the Church, and to make an extensive change in the nature and administration of her revenues, but he desired to learn wherein did the burden of tithes consist ? Agriculture had flourished at many periods since the general collection of tithes came to be established in this country, and if tithes were really such a bur den as had been represented, that could hardly have been the case. Now, it did appear to him much better for the tithe-payer to deal with the parson than with the landlord.—( Hear, hear.) Something had been said about the necessity of relieving the agriculturists from the expense of maintaining the roads in a state of good and sufficient repair, and of relieving them by making the country at large defray the expense. If such a principle were adopted, the rest of the community might very well exclaim, " What I make us pay for maintaining your roads in good condition, for your profit and convenience ?" In his opinion the House might go on for ever discussing topics of this nature, without arriving at any sound or practical conclu sion ; they might go about here and there searching for hid den causes, but he could tell the country that they overlooked, or seemed to overlook, which in effect amounted to the same thing, the real cause of all the agricultural difficulties of ii:ngland—it was neither more nor less than the change which had. taik:T place in the value of money.—( Hear.) Therein lay the true sot,. which of our misfortunes. As to the corn law, respecting which a 0.0....4 deal had been said, he hesitated not to affirm that it afforded no c . rotection whatever to the agri culturist. er occasion, when Lord G. LENNOX said, that on a for... the Hon. Member for Oldham thought proper to btsring charges against his Noble brother, he treated those charges .v.Ol the contempt which they deserved—with the contempt which mi.: - representation and falsehood justly merited. No sooner had a report of the speech to which he was alluding arrived in Sus sex, than a meeting took place of the members of the union, which was attended by several magistrates, and by many indi viduals of great respectability. That meeting unanimously agreed, to a resolution expressive of the disgust with which they viewed the charge brought against his brother. The Hon. Member for Oldham might smile, but the accusations were utterly denied, and could not be proved. Nothing could be farther from the fact than the statement made, that the Duke of Richmond derived an income from the poor, and ho hoped that the House would not be led away by any insinua tions in which the Hon. Member for Oldham might think proper to indulge. If he were to put the character of the Duke of Richmond in comparison —no, he dare not do that — but if any one were to institute a comparison between the ehar&cter of his Noble brother and that of the Hon. Membu• for Oldham, he should have no anxiety as to which might stand higher in the estimation of his fellow-countrymen.— ( Hear, hear.) Mr. COBBETT said, that as to what he had said, how ever, he was perfectly ready to se-state every word—he would not in the least degree recede. Mr. CLAY then rose, and at the same time Lord ARTHUR LENNOX. The cry for the Noble Lord was very general, but the Hon. Gentleman did not give way. He said he should have readily yielded to the Noble Lord had not one speaker been already heard to the question of vindication. The Hon. Member for Oldham, lie proceeded to observe, had adverted to some of his own prophecies—it should be remembered that many of those prophecies Were yet unfulfilled. Amongst the arguments of the Hon. Member was this, that the effect of the Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, was to lower the price of corn. Now, it was remarkable that it should have operated upon only one kind of corn, barley, oats, rye, &c., bore a high price, while wheat alone had sunk in value.--( Cries of oh, oh, and much interruption.) The Hon, Member then appeared to notice the operation of the corn laws upon agricultural distress, but he was inaudible amidst the conversation carried on in all parts of the House. When heard, he was understood to say that, in his opinion, it was perfectly fair to call upon the agriculturists to pay for those roads which did not form part of the great lines of corn munication.—( Cries of " Question.") He concurred with the Noble Lord in thinking that the farmer should be relieved from any burden which in a peculiar degree pressed upon the land, but beyond that the agriculturist could not fairly expect the removal of taxation—so long as lie claimed monopoly, he could not reasonably expect relief. Mr. BENETT did not observe much difference between the proposition and the amendment. The amendment looked more to local taxation, but it did not, in point of fact, pre , elude them from considering the peculiar pressure of general ; taxation. He concurred with those who thought that there must be, to relieve agriculture, some relaxation of the cur volley, and that it would be expedient to consider if it would not be advisable to throw the poor-rates on the general fund c , f the country. Lord A. LENNOX gave his most positive, flat, and un qual'ified contradiction to every charge and insinuation which had been made by the Hon. Member for Oldham upon his Noble t., rother. f y; Mr. COBB ETT said a word or two in explanation, which did not reach us. Sir R. PEEL bore testimony to the high character and ; pure motives of the Noble Duke, and expressed his con viction that the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobbett) must have founded his opinion respecting the conduct of that Noblee Duke upon gross misrepresentation and misconception of his objects. He regretted the desultory debate which had taken place upon the resolution. A number of grave topics had -- been introduced—topics which would require for themselves separately a long period of anxious consideration. One eentleman had dilated upon the poor laws—another heel , recommended a change of the currency. Now these subjects were certainly each worthy of its special debate, and he ex pected that whenever any Honourable Member brought the latter forward, he would be prepared distinctly to state what was in substance his project. Did he wish for a renewal of a paper currency—would he debase the standard, or would . lie promise an adjustment of contracts? He hoped at least he would be ready to suggest some practical measure for their adoption. The Hon. Member behind him, as usual, viewed the question in a light peculiarly his own, and he boasted of his consistency—( A laugh)—yet he remembered that in July that Hon. Member had put it upon record as his opinion, that do what they might with the currency, the national debt should be thrown upon the land.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Thie was one of the Hon. Member's projects for relieving the agri cultural interest.—(Laughter.) As to the Poor Law Bill, he ee eld only say that he felt some such measure was necessary, an d h e was by no means surprised to find that it had occasioned some local ie.:sets and dissatisfaction, and that it had met with, in some instances, considerable opposition. Upon the whole, however, he had not to regret the view he had originally taken of the subject. Next, as to the commutation of tithes, which had also been alluded to, he hoped that the Noble Lord (J. Russell) would not persevere in his intention of handing over the matter to a select committee. After the treble at tempt which had been made—by Lord Altliorp, in 1833, and again last year, in 1834, and lastly, his ( Sir R. Peel's) own at tempt, which was founded on the principle of voluntary comm. tation—he admitted that it would be difficult to legislate ; but he had much rather that the Noble Lord should say he was not pre pared to legislate that session, but that Government would apply their minds zealously to the subject, than that he should transfer into other hands a task which he conceived ought to be re served for the executive government, which could command more information, and make use of more efficient instruments of inquiry, than any body to whom their authority might be partially delegated.—( Hear, hear.) Next, in considering the subject of taxation, which had likewise been referred to, he was bound to remember that there could only be a very limited surplus. And as he had recently been in a position in which it might have been his duty to bring forward what was called a budget, he could not now be a party to raising . any hopes in the breasts of the agriculturists, which as a minister he would. not have felt himself justified in encouraging, and determined in endeavour to realize.—(Hear, hear.) From the limited amount of the available surplus, be doubted if any consi derable relief could be granted to the agriculturists without detriment to the public service. He believed that Lord Althorp's statement was not far from correct, and that the surplus would not be more than 250,0001. -Under these circumstances, with his knowledge of the facts and his own intentions, he could not make himself a party to the rests tion.—(Hear, hear.) He would not attempt to induce the agriculturists to believe that he had contemplated any great reduction of the burdens of which they complained.—( Hear. ) He had always been an advocate for the maintenonce of public faith.—( Hear, hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that there was a far greater chance of relieving the agriculturists by the maintenance of public credit and confidence than by the direct reduction of any particular burden.—( Hear, hear.) He thought their course should be steadily to reduce the interest of the public debt. This would be beneficial to all interests in the State.--( Hear, hear.) Besides, he really did not see that anything could be pointed out as peculiarly pressing upon agriculture which by its removal could afford any great re lief to that interest, excepting only the malt-tax. His rea sons for dissenting from the repeal of that tax he had al ready stated at length that session.—( Hear, hear.) But even if he were disposed to sacrifice a certain amount of income, and trust to the productiveness of the revenue, he did not know that it would not be a matter of extreme doubt to him whether he might not benefit the agriculturists much more by other means than a reduction of direct taxation. Ile was not prepared, however, to say that there were not I imposts on the general taxation, by the reduction of which the land would be benefited. And he would take that op portunity of throwing them out for the consideration of the Right Hon. Gentlemen, because after he had prepared his Budget it would be too late. He would advise him (Mr. Rice) to consider the operation of the Auction Duty. The amount of revenue was not great, and the agricultural in terest would be materially benefited by the increased facility in the sale of landed property by open competition free from duty. As it was, the duty did not attain its own end. Lands were very frequently advertised, but this was rather for the - purposes of valuation, than with ,the view of a bona fide sale. Some new regulation, too, he suggested should be made about the Land Tax. The law relating to its re duction was, in fact, inoperative : some new plan should be devised. Then there was the question of the increase of seirit license duty. He believed that in effect it had been unjust. That addition had been imposed at a late period of the last Session, when the parties interested had no fair o . 4 ortunity of coming forward.—(Hear, hear.) Next, there „l a r s il se duty on glass, which he recommended to the Ri g b t Ho :. Gentleman's attention. He thought the land would b e ue ,:manently benefited by the reduction of. Sucii a tax, whits, afford the people a better article of use at a cheaper He considered, in a word, that from ose mentid, the n3ight. dealing with such impiseel as th not encoura one the expe lend ctation s :, derive advantage, but he ces: g e of its deriving any great benchfrom the reduction of. dntect : : taxation. Certainly at the.sainee time the. local taxation 44.. bear heavily on the land, yet it not be fait. for,.ihe landed interest to hope for any great advantage frOmarOue,. tion of them. The truth was that gyeaens relief would be afforded the agriculturist by a new vainatioa than from transfer of the particular charges to the public. „The,.., expense of the valuation he knew made the difficulty. In some cases it had been est imated at 40;0001 or 50,0607:, But lie could state that in Laeca , -hire, and he belieeed Yorkshire, there had been a new valuatiOn of the charge for county rates, by which a more equable arrangeenent with respect to the towns had been made, and he believed: no dissatisfaction had been created. There was a relief which he had proposed to give the landed this session, and it was a very material one.—( [leer, hear.) It was his in tention to have relieved it of the Church rate.—( Hear, hear.) Now to this personal property did not contribute fairly. He had calculated on relieving the agriculturist to the extent of 550,0001. As to the ordinary local expendi - - ture, he was net disposed to take it out of the superintendence and control of the country gentlemen. He thought that limits should be placud to the system of centralization. An altera t ion in the present system would eventually tend only to in crease the patronage of the Government, and to swell out the general expenses. But tLere was an item of local taxatiois which he believed might be beneficially transferred. He meant the expenses of criminal justice. It had been proposed by the committee which sat last year to divia!e the cases into those dis posed of at the sessions, and those at ti'sc assizes, the Govern ment to pay the expenses of the latter—the oDunties severally of the former. There was the ineonvenierce in this,.that county magistrates would send all the cases they could to be disposed of at that tribunal which to the district was the least expensive. The Noble Lord proposed to obviate this by throwing the ex penses of both together, and imposing .olie moiety of the gross amount upon the county, the other upon the public. This un doubtedly was an improvement on the report of last year. But he proposed that no difference should be made, that both should be transferred to the public. The whole expense would not, he was ce2vinced, exceed 150,000/. Moreover, he would throw the w h o l e ,!large of prisoners convicted upon the public. This would be a great ;OK and while he relieved a county of perhaos 20,0001. or 30,060/., there would be no similar charge upon ther public. Government, acting upon a great and regular system, would be enabled to manage matters uniformly, and with much more economy than they could be conducted at present. This amount of remission be should have recommended might perhaps have exceeded the surplus of 250,0001., but he should have trusted to the increase of some of the other taxes. Since then, however, he feared some of the sources of the public revenue had been less productive. The reso lution of the Noble Lord did not point to any specific sum as the amount of the remission ; but it encouraged the hope that the attention of the House would be called to the sub ject of local taxation, and to the granting of any practical relief which, consistently with the maintenance of public credit, could be afforded to the agricultural interest. If his Noble Friend would take his (Sir R. Peel's) advice, having succeeded in his object, and obtained an assent to his principle on 'the part of the Crown, lie would let the Chancellor of the Exchequer determine the amount of avail able surplus, and bring forward a plan for the relief of lo cal taxation, reserving to himself hereafter the right of preferring any other specific plans. He trusted his Noble Friend would take this course : if not, he (Sir R. Peel) could not acquiesce in the resolution he had moved, which pledged the House to objects which must excite expectations on the part of the agriculturists, in whose distresses he sym pathized, but which he was not willing to aggravate, as he thought must be the case, by exciting .hopes which, consis tently with public credit, could not be fulfiilled. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed entirely in almost every opinion which had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman.—( Hear.) He assured the Noble Lord that it did not require his motion to induce Go vernment to render any possible relief to the agricultural in terest. Whether this motion had been made or not, the pre sent Government were perfectly disposed to' do all they could to relieve its distresses. The Right Hon. Baronet must be aware that there were several demands on the public revenue which had not been included in the estimate of the surplus. These were the Danish claims, and the claims of the merchants of Dublin for loss by fire, so that he (Mr. S. Rice) might have a less surplus than the Right Hon. Baronet had calculated. He concurred in his observations upon the auction duty, and thought there might be a modification or reduction of the duty on glass. Sufficient credit had not, however, been given to Government for the relief which bad been afforded to agriculture since the cessation of the war. Since that period the amount of relief which the agricultural interest had received in Excise duties alone was 7,384,000/. ;in Customs only . 600,0001. or 700,0001. in Assessed Taxes, 935,0001. ; and in Stamp Duties, con nected with Agriculture, 29,000/. making a total of 8,356,000/. of taxes bearing on Agriculture, which had been remitted since the peace. But supposing that any tax which presses on agriculture were relieved to-morrow, on what - groin would the agriculturists stand when the question -of 'the Corn Laws came to be discussed ? The arguaterrein:tht i ir l'avour on other occasions had been, the unequal pressunif of taxation on agriculture. The agricultural interest - would be deprived of this argument by obtaining a remission of