The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 4. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack shortly before Five o'clock. The Bishop of BATH and WELLS took the oaths and his seat. POOR-RATES (IRELAND). The 14darqutis of LANSDO\VNE laid certain papers on the table relative to the poor-rates of Ireland. ODD FELLOWS' SOCIETY. Lord BEAL-MONT presented a petition from the Odd Fellows' Society of Manchester, complaining that notwithstanding they were a charitable society, having a surplus fund of upwards of 600,0001., yet they were considered as an illegal society, such be ing the opinion cf Sir John Campbell, who bore his testimony to the advantages of the society to the public, and also that of Sir F. Pollock. They prayed thataby an extension of the Benefit Societies' Act they might be rendered a legal society, and enabled to enjoy all the privileges enjoyed by other benefit societies. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 4. The SPEAKER took the Chair to-day shortly be fore Pour o'clock. NEW MEMBERS. Mr. Moaals, for Carmarthen, and Lord SONIERTON, Tor Wilton, took the oaths and their seats. NEW WRIT. On the moticai of Mr. 0. GORE, a new writ was ordered for the Northern Division of Salop, in the room of Lord Clive n ow Earl of Powis. PRIVATE BILLS. Mr. BROTLIERTON brought in the Manchester Waterworks Bill, the Dover Pier Bill, and the Wor cester Road Bill, which were severally read a first and ordered to he read a second time. Lord R. GROSVENOR brought in the Brentford Gas Bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. A vast number of Bills were brought up and read a first time. LEICESTER. Mr. Sergeant TALIOURD presented a petition from the sitting Members for Leicester, stating that the petitioners against their return had not entered into the proper recognizances required by law. They had entered into recognizances of 500/. each, instead of joint as well as separate recognizances. ADMISSION OF WS. Sir W. HEA.THCOTE presented petitions from Southampton and another place in Hampshire against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Sir R. INGLIS presented several petitions to the same effect, some of which were from persons styling themselves " loyal Orangemen." Lord ARUNDEL and SURREY presented a pe tition from the Roman Catholics of Great Yarmouth in favour of their admission. Mr. HUME wished to know whether it was regular for any persons to designate themselves in any petition to the House by illegal names ? Sir R. INGLIS expressed his opinion that the persons who styled themselves " loyal" were as much entitled to assume that name as the Hon. Member who had called their character in question. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Petitions in favour of the abolition of the Jewish disabilities were presented by Mr. Divett, from Exe ter ; Captain Berkeley, from Bristcl ; Sir J. Y. Buller, from Devon ; Lord R. Grosvenor, from Westminster; Mr. G. Thompson, from Margate ; Dr. Bowring, from a congregation of Unitarians at Cheltenham ; Mr. Kershaw, from several congregations of Dissenters at Stockport ; Alderman Thompson, Mr. Baring Wall, Mr. B. Osborne, and Mr. Fox Maule, from various inhabitants of Perth. Petitions aoyainst the measure were presented by Sergeant Talfeurd, from Reading ; by Colonel Reid, from New Windsor; by Mr. Frewen, and by Mr. Niles, from various parishes in Sornersetshire. LEGACY DUTY. Mr. Sergeant TALFOLTRD presented a petition, signed by 70 attorneys, praying for the removal of the legacy duty. COMMERCIAL DISTRESS. _ _ Mr. MUNTZ moved that the petition of the Bir mingham Currency Association, presented to the House on the 20th of December last, he referred to the Select Committee on Commercial Distress. NATIONAL POOR•RATES. Sir J. WALMSLEY presented a petition from Leicester, praying that the relief of the poor of the United Kingdom might be made a national charge, and that all real property should be taxed to provide the necessary funds. DUTIES ON TEA. Mr. PARKER presented a petition from Sheffield praying for a reduction of the duty on tea. WEST INDIAN COLONIES. Mr. F. BARING presented a petition, numerously signed by the sugar-growers of Barbadoes, pray ing the House to reduce the amount of duty on colonial produce. Mr. URQUHART presented a petition, praying for the repeal of the window•tax. JEWISH DISABILITIES. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of the borough of Yarmouth, and another from Arbroath, in favour of the Bill for the removal of Jewish disabilities. Mr. PATTISON presented several petitions to the same effect, one of them being from the students of the new college at Battersea. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. FOX MAULE brought up the army esti mates, which were ordered to be printed. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. F. O'CONNOR gave notice of his intention on an early day to move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to benefit societies. Mr. CA.RDWELL gave notice of his intention on a future day to call the attention of the House to the commercial relations existing between this country and France. Dr. BOWRING gave notice of his intention, On Thursday week, to call the attention of the House to the grievances complained of by the inhabitants of the Isle of Man. Mr. MOFFATT gave notice of his intention on a future day to move for leave to bring in a Bill to vacate the seats of insolvent Members. Mr. HUME gave notice that, on Monday, he should move for a return of the total amount of money expended by the Board of Ordnance on public works. RETURNS. On the motion of Dr. BOWRING the following returns were agreed to :—A. tabular return, showing the quantities of sugar of the several sorts imported into the United Kingdom, and the quantities retained for home consumption ; together with the rates of duty charged on the home consumption, and the next revenue accruing therefrom, in each year from 1793 to 1847 inclusive ; followed by a comparative statement of the average prices of British plantation and foreign plantation sugar (ordinary yellow Havana), for the same series of years (in conformity, so far as prac ticable, with the sessional paper No. 290, of 1841). Also a copy of Dr. King's report on the fever at Boa Vista. On the motion of Mr. HUME, the following re turns were order€d:—Returns of the numbers of commissioned and non-commissioned officers and private men in each description of corps in the army, on 'the 25th day of January, in the years 1829, 1835, 1840, and 1847 (in continuation of Return, Appendix 41, of Finance Committee 1828) : of the number of British troops, men and officers, in each colony and foreign garrison ; troops, officers, and men employed in the public service, exclusive of India ; number of men and officers employed in Great Britain ; ditto in Ireland, on the 25th of January, in the years 1829, 1835, 1840, and 1847 (in continuation of Return, Appendix 79, of Finance Committee, 1828) : of the total number of officers and men of the yeo manry in Great Britain, on the Ist day of January, i n the years 1829, 1835, 1840, and 1847 (in continu ation of Return, Appendix 100, of Finance Com mittee, 188) : of the number of officers and men of the yeomanry and armed constables in Ire land, on the Ist day of January, in the years 1829, 1835, 1840, and 1847 (in continuation of Return, Appendix 158, of Finance Committee, 1828). ADJOURNMENT OF TIIE HOUSE. On the motion of Mr. TUF , N i ELL, it w as or dered that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday. NEW ZEALAND BILL. Mr. LABOUCHERE postponed the second read ing of the New Zealand Bill till 'Wednesday next, as he was desirous it should not interfere with the ad journed debate on the West India question. CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate being read, Mr. B. COCHRANE rose, and said be wished to ask a question of the Secretary of State for the Home Department on a subject which, he believed, the House would consider one of the utmost . im portance, as questions of Jutice, as well as the y :haracters e' of many Members of the Majesty's Government whether ent it was . the intention of her ) e v l ernm to bring in any Bill to amend the law with respect to the way in which inquiries into election petitioris were at _present con d uc t e d ? His object in askin g this questioni\ie was on account ) of the hardships to whichmed iers were exposed against, if th e were whose returns were petition allegations contained therein vi be well founded. Notwithstanding e sPurcehvead not to deci s i on might be come to, the person petitioned a liable for the expenses to which he mightralstvnebeen was put. It was true, the Committee had the power to decide that the petitions were " frivolous and vexatious," when the expenses would fall upon the petitioners, but they all knew that they never came to such a decision unless a very vexatious case had been offered. There was another point which he also considered Tilt 8 1 10'N, LONDON, SATURPAY_ RvrNrivq, _,PEBRVAIII 7 8 of great importance. A party going into Com mittee was kept in ignorance of the nature of the charges which were to be brought against him, and therefore it was totally impossible for him to have witnesses at hand who might be able to rebut them. He might have witnesses in town, but those he might require were perhaps absent. He thought that in these tribunals the principle followed in the courts of law should be adopted. Every person brought to trial was informed of the nature of the charge against him, and the witnesses that would be called. Sir G. GREY said it was not the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill to effect the purposes meationed by the Hon. Member. The Committees were invested with a discretion to order costs, and if a person applied for them they might exercise their discretion on the subject. Great danger and difficulty could not fail to arise if the person entitled to costs was to be named. The reason Com mittees Ldid not frequently grant costs was because they were not often applied for, as the parties consenting to withdraw generally made some arrangement on :,the subject. By the pre sent arrangements a list of the objections against voters were given to the Committee of Elections and the statement must be accompanied with the heads of all the objections. The Chairmen of the Committees were empowered to fix rules for the con ducting of the inquiry. RIVER PLATE. In reply to Mr. DISRAELI, Lord PALMERSTON stated that two Commis sioners had been dispatched to the River Plate, one on the part of France, and the other on behalf of this country ; and, pending their negotiations, it would Le disadvantageous to lay the various documents on the table. When they were brought to a termination he should have no objection to lay the correspondence before the house. POOR LAWS (IRELAND). Mr. P. SCROPE wished .to know when any further report from the Poor-law Commissioners of Ireland would be laid upon the table of the House, and whether any proceedings- were being taken by the Government, whether by indictment or otherwise, against those parties who were opposing the proper administration of the poor-laws in that country? Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that no time would be lost in laying the documents referred to before the House. With respect to the second question, if the Hon. Member would name any de finite case and put a notice on the paper, he would take care to give him an answer upon the sub ject. ADJOURNED DEBATE.—SUGAR AND COFFEE PLANTING. Mr. J. WILSON stated that it was his intention to confine his remarks to the subject which the Noble Lord had in view in bringing forward the motion. He would confine his remarks ex clusively to the interests of the cultivators of sugar in the East and West Indies. He was satis fied to place the whole merits of the question upon the interests of the West India planters themselves, and the demands which they were now making for increased protection, and the power of the Govern ment to afford that increased protection. The de mands of the West Indians might be summed up in the language of one of the documents of the West India body itself. Their arguments might be stated as being four in number:—First, they said that as moral considerations compel them to prohibit the introduction of slave produce,so moral considerations compelled them to prohibit slavery; secondly, that slave labour was cheaper than free labour, and to expect them to compete with slave labour, confining them to free labour, wastboth unequal and unjust ; thirdly, that the exclusion of slave-labour sugar would be a pro tection to the British colonial planter; and, fourthly, that the Government had the power of so protecting the colonies by excluding or placing a higher rate of duty upon Brazilian sugar.—(Hear.) It was impossible to deny that in every country the rela tions subsisting between the employer and the em ployed were daily improving. As civilization advanced slavery disappeared. They had a proof of this in the history of their" own country, for he need go no further back than 30 years ago to show that the rela tions which then subsisted between the employer and the employed by no means coincided with the moral sentiments and social feelings of the present day. But he apprehended that those conscientious gentlemen who supported this question in that House, and who were anxious to exclude the produce of Cuba and Brazil, would equally object to the intro duction of the produce from any other coun try where slavery was to be found in one shape or another. He apprehended that the principle upon which those gentlemen took their stand would exclude the produce of Russia from this country, for in that kingdom slavery existed. It would be incum bent upon those gentlemen, if they wished to be thought consistent, to resist the introduction of the produce of Egypt, for there was no severer slavery to be found in any part of the world than existed in Egypt, nor could these gentlemen consistently allow the produce of the United States to be introduced if these principles were good; and the result must be, if they were anxious to observe consistency, they must put a stop to the trade of Russia, Egypt, the United States, and many other countries, if they refused to admit the slave-grown sugar of Cuba and Brazil. The great practical question, however, they had to consider was, the allegation that these ge:tlemen put forward in the first instance, namely, that free labour was dearer than slave labour: Now, in estimating the various qualities of labour it was difficult to tell to what extent the cost of free labour could be reduced. For example, upon the Bristol and Gloucester Railway, locomotive labour, which three years ago cost 2s. 10d. per mile, at the present time did not cost more than one shilling; so that it was utterly impossible to determine to what extent the cost of free labour could be reduced. But he fbund in various letters and pamphlets that had been pub lished in the colonies, it was stated that in Trinidad and the Mauritius the cost of free labour in producing work by the piece was much less than slave labour would have cost during the existence of slavery in the British colonies. In referring to the Mauritius, he found there was this striking fact, showing that at all events, whatever distress they might labour under, they had nothing to complain of from free labour, for it ap peared that by slave labour each man pro duced about three quarters of a ton of sugar per year, while of free-labour they produced one ton. The Noble Lord alluded on the previous night to Colonel Flinter's account of Porto Rico, and said he did not place much confidence in that gentleman's statement with regard to the condition of the labouring population. He (Mr. Wilson) could say, that having referred to a great number of other sources, he had, upon the whole, found that gentleman's statements perfectly correct. In the chief part of the island he stated that the cultivation was nearly all carried on by free labourers; and accord ing to the census taken two years ago, in a population of nearly 500,000, there were 180,000 white persons, 280,000 free coloured, and only 50,000 slaves; and it could not be supposed that these 10 per cent. sufficed for the chief cultivation of the island; so that Colonel Flinter's statement was corroborated. But perhaps the most conclusive evidence of the greater economy of free labour over slave was to be found in the progress of sugar cultivation in the east. Twenty years ago Java, now one of the most considerable markets for the sugar supply of Europe, barely produced as much of that article as its own inhabitants consumed; the whole ex ported product in 1826 did not exceed 1,000 tons. Since then, in open competition with Cuba and Brazil, and with the slave labour of their own Surinam, the production of Java had increased to 75,000 tons last year.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Wilson) did not mean to say the labourers in Java were freemen ' • but, as far as he could learn from Dutch ministers who had resided officially there, they were as free as any other labouring people in the world. Some might call our own colliers not free, who were bound for twelve months at a time; ho should call them free, if, at the end of the year they had the power to change their master.—(Hear.) A change had taken place with respect to the cultivation of sugar, of which few persons were probably aware, The quantity of sugar at present produced on the continent amounted to more than two-thirds of the whole amount produced in our West India islands not longer than twenty years ago. The total quantity of sugar produced on the con tinent at the present time was 100,000 tons, and that production•tooli place not only in competition with slave labour, but under other disadvantageous circumstances. So rapidly did the home manufacture extend that the French colonists were now crying out for protection against the home producer, just as the latter was for merly accustomed to do against the planter. The pro duction of beet-root sugar was rapidly extending in Germany ; within the last twelve months 72 sugar manu factories had b een es t a bli s h e d i n th e Z o ll ve r e in. This as l a arli c ce o hn m tp p r e to t om iti ic o seo n dnt t tr o oo w lb.e hich the West Indian interest were exposed, l• and which it was impossible for PpTerhmeanceonmtpaentidtioitn,watsoora, rapidly one ar vi, increasing. The c ultivation oapis o beet-root formed a new branch of agricultur e i useful in the rotation (n)fcwr Europe,and it was found highly for, l exactly in the same way in which the turnip proved husbandry of Scotland m th p e ord in the most ap thou con tinent served partly for the foog.dro gi e t, bti the e o nt at to wheat manufac turers manufacturetvh o u e f l r fo ttle, and partly he for a fallow crop to prepare the heat crop. It was a remarkable fact that al of bset-root sugar on the eontinent soon r.s it was deprived of the highest rate of prot a e r c ie tin a ; duty, yet under the spur of compet n had recourse to improved modes of manufacture, and the conseq uence was that their business was rapidly extending itself. If t he West Indian interest wo uld only reflect upon the va st increase .whic i li had taken place in the production of sugar w last twenty years, they would not find it t to acc ount for the painful position in which they were now placed. In 1826 the whole amountest of o t f he s c ug a a p r e, pro ducedwas for European consumption, east otily 21,000 ton 3. In 1847 the quantity which Europ e drew from the same quarter was 240,000 tons, a A nd latrgni: quantity increase was the produce of tree l abour. iantity of sugar was also produced now in the United Statea, were, twenty years ago, scarcely any was manufactured_._ It ar w ti a e s e impossible to deny that a rapid sugar,incre me u in st c'lanuYse greatl di f ztu l b en an ezlconsumption, like in the value of pro perty in the old seats of the manufacture. Whether the sugar cultivation was destined to go from the west to the east—to go from slave labour to free labour, as had 1 appened with indigo, it was impossible for him to say ; but at present circumstances would seem to indicate tout such would be the ultimate result. 'Whatever sympathy the House might entertain for the West Indian interest, it had not the power to grant them any material relief. In a publication devot e d to the interests of the West ! Indian body a doubt had been recently started as to ' whether Java sugar could be introduced into this country at all, and it was truly stated that a large proportion of that sugar was produced under the superintendence of the Government and placed at its disposal. The fact was that out of 1,500,000 cwt. of sugar, about 1,000,000 cwt. were at the disposal of the Government. The Dutch Government were disposed to send their sugar to the English market, and they had done so this year. The Dutch Government sent out orders to Java that some of their largest ships were to be freighted with sugar for England and Holland ; the vessels were di rected to call at Cowes to ascertain if there were any profitable orders for the English market, and if' that should not happen to be the case the cargoes were to be carried to Holland. Three cargoes were consigned to the eminent house of Baring, and sold in London for the benefit of the Dutch Government ; but when other cargoes arrived at Cowes it was found that prices had declined in the English market, and the ships were ac cordingly ordered to proceed to Holland. One of the cargoes was purchased on speculation in May by a sugar importer who believed that prices were then about to rise. The speculator had not money to pay for the cargo, but his broker lent him the sum required upon his bill. That speculation had an important influence in the depreciation of the price of sugar. The sugar was bought at 335. per cwt. ; the panic came, and the whole cargo was sold at 235. per cwt., being a loss of 101. per ton. Circumstances of that nature sufficiently accounted for the unusual depre ciation of the price of sugar during the last three months, without reference to the Sugar Bill of 1846. There was another important point which ought not to be overlooked by those who were interested in the fu ture welfare of the British colonies. We had thought proper to admit refined sugar into this country at the same relative duty as raw sugar ; but it was improbable that either the West Indian interest or the Government were aware, when that alteration of the law was made, what would be its effect upon the questien of protection. Previously to 1845 refined sugar was practically ex cluded by a duty of 81. Bs. per cwt. : it was now admit ted on the terms before stated. The Legislature had likewise declared that all manufactured articles should be imported into this country as the produce of the country in which they might be manufactured. This at once opened our ports for the reception of refilled sugar grown in any part of the world, including the beet-root sugar of France, Belgium, and other parts of the con tinent. Then, again, we had treaties with countries which entitled them to have their produce imported into Great Britain upon the footing of that of the most favoured nations. Under these circum stances it would be impossible to exclude refined sugar, for the process of refining made it the produc tion of the country in which that process took place. According to the common commercial law of England, we could not exclude refined sugar, the growth and pro duce of the country in which it was refined. The whole of the beet- root sugar of the continent was consequently open to us, and as there was a bounty on the export of that sugar in the shape of a drawback equal to the duty first imposed upon it, there was considerable inducement to send it for consumption in this country. We had also treaties with foreign nations, under which we are bound to receive all sugars coming from those countries on the same terms as the sugars of the most favoured nations. The Dutch, therefore, might refine Cuba or other slave-grown sugars in Holland, and send them to us on the most favourable terms. This same thing might take place in the United States. With these circumstances staring the House in the face, what hope could they hold out of excluding by law sugars which were the produce of slave growing countries ? To hold out such an anticipation would only be a snare, causing some people, perhaps, to throw good money after bad, but of no real benefit to the planter. It might then be asked, of what benefit it would be to go into a Committee ? His answer to this was, that there were many questions relating to the West Indies which a Committee of that House might beneficially deal with. In the first place, he believed the social condition of our West India colonies was ex cessively bad. It was bad as compared even with Cuba or l'orto Rico. In the Spanish colonies there were old families, capitalists, and men of enterprise, interested in the soil. Our colonies, on the other hand, were regarded only as the means of providing funds for persons resi dent in this country.—(Hear, hear.) In Porto Rico, wood-roads and bridges were constructed in numbers every year. In our colonies nothing of the kind was to be found. In Cuba there were said to be 800 miles of railroads ; in all our islands there were only 10 or 12 miles.—(Hear, hear.) Some eight or nine years ago, when a proposition was made in Liverpool to make a railway in Jamaica, not a single shilling was subscribed to the project by any one interested in the colony. They must admit, therefore, that there were great and sufficient reasons why sugar should be produced cheaper in Cuba than in our own islands. Only last week ho saw a ship going out to Cuba, fitted with iron tanks, in arder to bring home molasses without that leakage to which casks exposed them. He believed that not a single ship had ever sailed to any one of our own islands so fitted. This was evidence of superior energy and zeal on the part of Cuba merchants.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to other points, he thought that the West Indian colonists had been unnecessarily trammelled as to the matters relating to their labourers. They had not been allowed to take the necessary steps for the repres sion of vagrancy in Trinidad. There were twenty millions of acres of waste grown lands. Why, the strictest regulations ought to have been adopted to pre vent the vagrancy and squatting which had taken place upon these lands.—(Hear, hear.) One of the means by which Porto Rico was reclaimed so rapidly as it was, was by stringent laws against vagrancy. Then, as to immigration. lie thought that the greatest facilities ought to be given to the planters to import such labour as they might require. But it was one thing to open such facilities, and another thing to lend or give them money to carry out such a project.—(Hear, hear.) In the one case there was an assurance that immigration would never take place except when it was wanted ; in the other the probabilities were that the money would be squandered. But look at the extent to which immigra tion must be carried in order to produce any benefit to the West Indies. Why, in order to raise Trinidad even to the same standard of population as Jamaica, no less than 1,079,000 labourers must be imported.—(Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding all that had been said, he did hope and believe that the West Indies were in an im proving condition. His advices from Guiana assured him that a better spirit was springing up between the employers and employed, that they were beginning to feel that they had a mutual interest, and that the crops were considerably increasing. What cause then was there for despair ? If he found, as he did in Mauritius, that the charges of the colony were no less than 61. on each ton of sugar it produced, why of course he con cluded that such charges must come down, if countries that produced cheaper were to be competed with. But this was not a question of protection ; and regarding . the alterations necessary in the colonies as alterations which a Committee would well consider, he, with every hope of future colonial prosperity, should cordially give the motion his support.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. T. BARING commenced by saying that nothing, he thought, could be more distressing to the planters than to hear the contrast which the Hon. Gentleman had just drawn between the prosperity of Cuba, with its eight hundred miles of railroads, and the ruin of our colonies, without a public work progressing within their boundaries ! What a lamentable state of things to re flect upon; what a responsibility for the British Govern ment to encounter ! The Hon. Member had referred to the beet-root sugar, but the growers of beet-root sugar had had to encounter none of those obstacles which had been thrown in the way of the other sugar growers. He repudiated the imputation of reckless expenditure' and wild speculation so generally advanced against our West India planters. The whole course of their specu lations had been directed and regulated by that le gislation at home on which they had so eallaciously relied. He adduced a series of figures to show that while in the price of our sugars there had been a ruinous reduction since the Bill of 1846, in that of the sugars of Cuba and Porto Rico there had been, not merely no fall, but a rise. 'rho Right Ho nourable Gentleman had referred to the failure of the Barbadoes Bank as accounting for much of the distress there, but, making every allowance for other possible circumstances in relation to the management of the bank, there could be no doubt that the failure of the bank must have been mainly attributable to the deprecia tion of the property of its customers, arising from the injustice they had experienced under the Act of 1846. As to the suggested repeal of the navigation laws, he considered that any such measure could only be bene ficial to our colonies, by making it special to those colo nies, for if you extended the benefit of such repeal to the foreign sugar-growing colonies, our own would be no better off than they were now. The Right. Hon. Baronet had favoured them with many extracts from pamphlets; he would have taken a course far more satisfactory to the House and to the country, if he had produced rather the information derived from the facts and suggestions and remarks contained in the dispatches of the various colonial governors. What the colonies wanted was the observance to them of good faith, the re storation to them of that credit and that capital which the Bill of 1846 had robbed them of, while it had added in a marked manner to the capital and credit of the rival slave-labour colonies. He feared that the Right Hon. Gentleman did not fully appreciate the state of things in our colonies. The Right lion. Gentleman seemed to think that the whole difficulty might he obviated by sending out agents such as Mr. Price. What had been the effect of Mr. Price's agency in 1847? Why, that on the particular estate he managed he expended 18,0001. in the proluction of sugar worth 7,00 E, or at the utmost 8,0001. The want of capital in the colonies arising from the almost entire destruction of credit was such, that it was extremely doubtful whether this year's crop could be realised, and still more doubtful whether the plantations next year could be cultivated at all. The proposition that our planters had been compensated by the grant made to them in 1833 was wholly fallacious. True, the ostensible amount was twenty millions—a sum bespeaking the generous intentions of the people of this country ; but let it be recollected that all the present gene ration paid was the interest upon this money, posterity being left to pay , the capital. It was infinitely worth t t ues whileplanters of the to pay West the Indiahe interest planters o f th this snmd money e t y he on iN c r o a n u d ri i: industry s o t f ry being unshackledres . t)r e restored t y o theth-hteirnaipgndotelseirirkstfieeone interference e exercising of t he m p their l foreign unablere e g g s l n a t t o u .r— planter. a n compete n : r t O e hn r e f e af r nr e ey n et ce which rendered them wholly e i, m vi s tl e i l t v h e e s would equal find termsth wholly nustakea if they based the test of their princi• pies on what they call free trade in sugar, but which was by no means free trade, wanting those elements of re in crocal advantage which themselves had held forth as the L primary feature of the principle. Even the result of cheapness, which they urged as a recommendation of the measure of '46, they could by no means rely upon the permanency of. Refuse to retrieve the ruin of our own planters, throw the market into the hands of the fo reign growers, and how long were we to depend upon the supply of cheap sugar ? But were our own planters to submit, year after year, to this oppression, until at length it utterly prostrated them to the earth ? On what principle were they to be expected to yield unre sistingly to all the diastrous effects of free trade, while the benefits, whatever they might be, of that free trade were felt wholly by the mother country? How long was their allegiance to endure the test of the most monstrous injustice, unalleviated by the least glimpse of reparation? He had no personal interest, not to the I extent of a penny, in any sugar-growing estate, in any colony, but he was earnestly alive, not simply to the permanent interests of his country, but to the preserva tion of its honour and its honesty. Mr. BERNAL said it was his unfortunate position to I disagree with much said on his side, and to agree with what had been said on the other side of the House. lie disclaimed all connexion with any other party re specting the question of the West Indies, but wished to be considered as expressing opinions peculiarly his own, and the responsibility of which lay at his door. He thought that the pictures drawn of the state of Cuba were suicidal, in so far as they tended to make against slavery; for all the great improvements in that island, its railroads, its bridges, its cultivation, were the produce of slave labour. He gave the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn full credit for sincerity in his views; but he must take leave to say that, in his opinion, the proposed Committee would do no good. Who that recollected the two co-existing Committees on the West Indies and the west coast of Africa, which sat at the same time and ancillary as it were to each other, but would admit, from an examination of the blue books, that no result could come from them? If the West Indies were, as he believed, suffering, was this the sort of relief they wished for? He had never been a Pro tectionist; and when he found the British agriculturist was set free, he could not consent to bind the West Indian labourers. He had been very much disappointed by the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had expressed his desire not to say anything harsh to wards the West Indians, but who had ended by collecting all sorts of taunts against them from anonymous and authenticated pamphlets. When his Right Hon. Friend asked why more expenditure in labour and machinery had not been made on the West Indies, he would reply that the most unencumbered estates there could not work them selves at a profit; and how could ho expect improve ments could be made at an increased expenditure, when not one shilling could be borrowed even on the unin cumbered property in the West Indies ? The Right Hon. Gentleman bad neither acted consistently with his principles, nor with justice to the West Indian proprie tors. Sundry taunts had been uttered towards the %Vest Indians, such as the 20,000,000/., and the closing of the account with them. \Vhon the negro was offered increased employment at more wages, he laughed at the idea, for his produce always enabled him to gain as much as he required. If the West Indians put into cul tivation a certain number of acres for producing garden stuff, the negro would not be able to gain so much, and would consequently be obliged to work to make up the difference. But what he wished to ask was, why the producer of sugar at Jamaica and Berbadoes should be obliged to pay a duty any more than a Yorkahireman, who brought his potatoes to the port of London. If ho were told that the West Indies were an expense he would reply, that so were the British and Scottish islands, and therefore, on the principle of free trade, he contended that a man sending his sugar from Jamaica had as much right to send it free as the farmer from Lothian. If the Government for purposes of revenue chose to put a duty on foreign colonial sugars, that was another question; but what he claimed was a freee admission of British 'West India sugars to consumption here in the same way that Irish and Scotch provisions and corn were admitted. The depreciation of West India property at present was such, that properties entirely unincumbered would neither let nor sell. In the islami with which he syss connected a magnificent farming property, formerly producing 1,2001. a year clear, would neither let tor 3401. a year, nor sell for 4,000/. This was the result of the enthusiasm which had carried slave emancipation at a blow. Look at the serfdom of England, was that changed in a day, or even after a battle of 25 years ? No. It was the gradual operation of centuries; and yet the West Indians were now taunted, after seeing their colonies revolutionised by the sudden emanci pation of their serfs or slaves, with not having re sorted to the agricultural improvements. He believed that the result of the present discussion would be, that the packets which took out the news of the appointment of the Committee would also carry letters ordering the abandonment of estates in the West Indies. As to the relief expected from the Colonial office, he must say that he had never gone there, because he knew by experience that nothing was ever got by the %Vest Indians except a polite bow, and some general ad vice that there ought to be a resident proprietary. As for the complaints made, that energy and and experi ment in cultivating the estates were altogether wanting, he could only say that he,in the course of his own experi ence, bad made very considerable efforts by sending out cultivators, amongst whom was a Yorkshireman; and yet, though his estate was not incumbered to the value of a shilling, he had not only not derived any income from it, but had been obliged to make an outlay in order to keep it in cultivation. As to the vaunted superio rity in point of crystallisation of foreign sugars, he defied any colony, slave or otherwise, to produce better sugar than, under favourable circumstances, could be shipped from the West Indies. With respect to the class of labourers to be employed, the various questions as to the relative value of krooinen, coolies, or Chinese, were well worthy of the consideration of the Government; he believed, however, himself that the House of Assembly, at Jamaica, would never consent to grant any money to pay for the expense of immigration to that island of a body of kroomen or Chinamen to compete with the negroes and creoles in the labour market there. Why, the very amount re quired to pay the passage of men from the north coast of China would startle any merchant who should receive an application for a loan for that purpose from a Jamaica planter. If the country, however, did not think the colonies worth the sacrifice demanded in their favour, it was useless fur him to contend one minute longer, or to do more than to relieve his mind by stating his opinions on the subject. Mr. HEYWOOD entered into some details with respect to the statistics of cotton and other exports from this country, quoted by the Noble Lord the Mem ber for Lynn in the course of his speech, in order to show the inaccuracy of those statements. He expressed his ereat anxiety to see the experiment of emancipation succeed. Mr. BAGSHAW said that when he first went out to India, in 1317, the whole of that vast population was clothed by the manufactures of their own country ; but ten years afterwards the influx of British cottons was such as completely to supersede all the native manufac tures. There was no East India sugar then admitted, for a differential duty was levied which prevented them from entering into competition with West India sugars; and this duty of Bs. per cwt. was continued up to 1834-5. Deputation succeeded deputation in praying the Minis ter to equalise the duties, and at last that was done, but it was only granted in consequence of the difficulties under which the East Indians existed. In 1836 the Bill for equalising duties on East and West India sugar passed, and ten years after the East Indians seat to this country no less than 72,000 tons of sugar. He would venture to say that there never was in the world, in such a time, such a develop ment of the resources of a country. But we taxed their produce at the rate of one hundred per cent., while the East Indians took our produce, subject to a duty of three per cent. At present India was in a deplorable state, but it was not from ever-specula tion; it had all been caused by the conduct of the Mau ritius, that model colony, of which Mr. Hawes had fold so much on the last day of last session. The factitious prosperity of that colony had been all created with Indian capital.—(Hear, hear.) He, as an old East Indian merchant, was a free-trader, and he contended that the trade of India and of the tropics should get the same relaxations which had relieved the corn trade in the mother country. What they had done for the land lords of this country they were bound to do for the co lonists, or, if they did not, then destruction must be the result, and consequently the haudiog over of our sugar trade to the slave-growing colonies of other countries. He only asked what it was just to give—namely, such a distinctive duty as would put our free colonists on a par with their slave-growing neighbours, and afford a protection equivalent to that which distance gave to the British farmer. He hoped for no benefit from a Corn. mittee; he had had the misfortune to sit on one for three long years, and he knew that nothing could be more futile or ridiculous than to expect anything from their labours.—(A laugh.) The Committee to which ho al luded was one on the affairs of the Cape; they recom mended many fine measures, but the present state of the colony showed how little had been done.—(Hear.) He did not mean to move any amendment, but if he had done so, it would have been one for a Committee of the whole House to consider the sugar duties. Mr. DISRAELI said he would endeavour to put this question in its true light, and to divest it, as far as pos sible, of all mere secondary considerations. The real political problem which they were called upon to solve was this :—Whether the new commercial system which had so lately been tried upon one great branch of our imperial industry had not been completely and lament ably found wanting ?—(Hear, hear.) They were called upon to adjudicate respecting a great branch of our im perial industry, which was prosperous when we first began to apply to it the principles of our new system, which was now so no longer, and which, when it called out for assistance received no answer but the dry de velopment of a cold abstraction.—(lleac, hear.) There was an interest which, perhaps, in all its relations, re presented no less than two hundred nei'llions of capital. Even the Government, as well as their amateur advo cates, admitted that that capital was in danger. They did not question the peril, but how did they account for it ? They did not attribute it to their free-trade measures, which, if they had been as successful as was anticipated, would have left him a very weak cause indeed to defend. Then he might have heard that if our islands in the Gulf of Mexico were all lost in the waves which surround them, the new system would amply repay us for the loss. But, unfortunately, we were not in a position to justify such an assertion. It could not be pretended that any of the free- trade mea sures had brought about such results as would compen sate for the state of society they had created—a state of suffering he believed unprecedented in ancient or modern history. The present system had been baptised with a name which in his opinion it never deserved. It had been culled a reconstruction of the commercial system of this country on the principle of emancipated trade. 9 They had been told to expect great results. He denied the soundness of the principle on which it was founded ; he denied that they had reconstructed their commercial system on the principles of free trade. The principle upon which they had acted was, that of buying in the cheapest market. That was not the true principle of commerce. Commerce, they were told by th e pelitico economic writers, was barter. How often, during the early years of his attendance in that House, when the fatal principle like a snail was beginning to emerge from its shell, had he been told with scoffing, that commerce was only barter ? How could they reconcile that doc trine with the fatal principle which they were now pur suing—the principle of purchasing in the cheapest mar ket? Why that principle was only fit for retail trade.— (" Oh.") But unfortunately although retail in principle, it was not retail in its effect. Its effects were wholesale, it was not retail—in ruins.—(" Oh, oh.") Nobody would deny the fact that our colonies were in a most perilous position.—(Year, hear.) They were not so in 1846, after all the interference, all the patching up which their affairs had undergone. After their interests had been made the very harridan of party, the energies and capital of Englishmen enabled them to brave the storm, until the I fatal legislation of 1346. He had taken some part in the debates of that year, and he recollected well how great was his surprise and disappoietment to find an ' Honourable Friend of his, the Chairman of the India Company, supporting the measures of Government. He remembered well his Honcrurable Friend saying that the British capitalists who had invested in India were nut in the least afraid of the Govern ment measures ; and that statement had a vast effect on the House. He (Mr. Disraeli) had followed his Hon. Friend, and had told him that he did not mean to question his testimony as to the British capitalists; but he reminded him of the important consideration that the cultivation of India was carried on by two classes; that was to say, English capitalists, who had been induced by our legislation to invest their funds, and also by the ryot population, with whom sugar was the only unrestricted article of cultivation. He had told hls Hon. Friend that cotton and arrack were monopolies, and that sugar wits the only privileged cultivation of the Indian ryots. Ile had had !'ratters sent to him by men of high consideration and authority on Indian affairs—among the rest by Dwarkanath Tagore, which showed that the only hope ful speculation for India was to promote the cultivation of sugar. He had read to the House the correspondence of eminent persons who had since fallen, Imes, Imes, pracipites to show that the cultivation of sugar had sprung up in every district. He had shown also that coincident with the increase of sugar cultivation in India our exports to that country had increased, and that that increase mainly consisted of goods required by the lowest class of the population. Ile had shown that the consumers of our goods were no longer exclusively the wealthy and powerful, but that the humble cultivator took in exchange for his anger turbans and robes of our manufacture, thus increasing our exports to the extent of two millions. He now asked whether the present state of that country had been well considered ?—(llear, hear.) He need not dwell on the condition of the capitalists, for whom the Hon. Member for Beverley had stood bail. Every one knew what had been the termination of their career—that they had disapp , arcd from the commercial world, but surely the condition of the ryots was worthy of some consideration.—(Hear, hear.) They had shown the effects of our policy, by ceasing to be the purchasers of our goods. Again, what had been the effect of our policy on the Mauritius, where the amount of compen sation, 2,600,0001., and the labour of 60,000 labourers had been sunk ? He would not enter into details ; but he held a document in his hand, drawn up by one eecs,nd to none in honour and intelligence on this subject, once a Member of that House, and who, from fatal expe rience. knew the history of the Mauritius, :which would tell in two lines the effect of the policy . of 1846. After the investment of the compensation money, the import, expense, and maintenance of coolies, and additional capital, to the amount in all of 4,600,0001, —after the most unprecedented energy and enterprise, the consequence had been utter and complete ruin. But that was not the worst or the bitterest consequence. A more bitter consequence was, that the men who had for years filled a high position in that House, teen of great practical ability and high honour, were now held up to public scorn and contumely, as men devoid of principle, as rash speculators, whose over-trading had met no more than its just reward—in their ruin ; and that which was the consequence of bad legislation was charged to their own capacity. He recollected they had been told that India had no slaves, and that that the Mauritius had no slaves, and, therefore, those places, at all events, had no cause to c mplain ; but, without giving any opinion as to the \Vest Indies, to the consi deration of whose position he was approaching, he would observe in passing, that of all our mistakes none had been more grievous or more fatal in its consequences than our commercial conduct towards India, and that nothing had been more bitter or heartrending than our treatment of the Mauritius.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the condition of the West Indies, no one doubted the condition to which our policy had reduced those islands. The Hon. Member for Westbury, who had scarcely touched the great question under conside ration, had stated in dulcet tones his conviction that as regarded the West Indies the gain had been all our own—asd added that we must, if necessary, sweeten our tea with beet-root sugar. He remembered when it was said that beet-root sugar was the creature of protection, and that for a nation to depend upon it was to outrage every principle of the political economy club. Now, however, they were told by the oracle of political economy that beet root sugar must if necessary supersede all other sugar, and that even slave•grown sugar must fall before beet-root sugar. Well, the peril to the colonies being admitted, what was the course of the Government?—what were the remedies proposed? The Chancellor of the Exche quer had announced some measures which Ministers proposed for remedying in some degree the condition he deplored, and had announced them at the end of a speech the whole object of which was to prove that no remedial measures would have any effect. The Right lion. Gentleman had stated that he could not flatter himself that his measures would satisfy the West India body. He (Mr. Disraeli) concurred with him, and would not, therefore, dwell on his suggestions, except as the repre sentative of an English constituency, living in an age of economy, and trembling for the budget which had been announced as shortly to make its appearance, to declare his unqualified opposition to the vote of 200,0001., which the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated he meant to propose. If he thought that vote would cure the evils of the colony, he would not offer any objection ; but he had no idea of encouraging that loose habit in public men of extricating themselves from difficulties brought on by their own want of caution by votes of the public money. —(Hear, hear.) But could they spare 200,0001. from the Exchequer at this time? If they could, the business of the House was not to vote it away according to the suggestions of the Minister in distress, bat rather to ascertain in what way they could apply it to the best advantage. If they had that amount in surplus, they might devote it to the pulling down the National Gallery and building a better—(Hear, and a laugh)—but to ex pend it in sending a certain number of negroes to the West India colonies wo u ld be of no effect in rescuing the colonial interest from the peril in which it was placed, and would therefore be a mere useless application of the public funds. The law of 18-16 was proposed as a law of regeneration, the effect of which was to be to throw capital into the colonies, to accumulate labour in those districts in which it was deficient, and to terminate all those questions of colonial distress of which so much had been heard during that period of painful transition through which the colonies were passing. But had the result been such as to inspire confidence in the Minister who brought forward and carried that law, or to show that they had studied the subject, and were so well informed upon it, that they were entitled to be the guides and leaders of the Legislature in respect to it ? His Noble Friend (Lord G. Bentinck) had referred to a speech made at the close of last session by the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, which was valuable as showing the knowledge, the opinions, and the prospects of the Government on the subject at the close of the year 1846. That that Hon. Gentleman was not now a Member of the House no one regretted more sincerely than he slid ; for he knew no man who combined lucid intelligence with practical business habits to a greater extent than Mr Hawes. — (Hear, hoar.) He looked on Mr. ilawes's opinion, therefore, as valuable, not merely as expressing the views of the Government, but as expressing views farmed on the mature consideration of a practical and intelligent mind. His Noble Friend, the Member for Lynn, had presented a petition which called forth from Mr. Hawes the following remarks :—" The Noble Lord had confined his attention to the West India ialands ; but let him turn to the Mauritius, and he would find that there the greatest prosperity was manifest, and that the production of sugar had immensely in creased satisfied that a system of free trade and open competi tion would be most beneficial for all parties concerned ; that it would lead to greater economy of production, be the means of embarking more capital in the growth and manufacture of sugar, and tend to the general prospe rity of the whole population." He quoted this to show what the knowledge of the Government on the subject really was. What was the answer to this ? The fail ure of every firm of importance connected with India or the Mauritius—Cabinet Councils held four times a week, and the Bank Charter virtually repealed,. while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was vomiting forth a protest against his own acts.—(Hear, hear.) He now came to the secret and inuendo remedies suggested, in order to prevent the utter destruction of the colonialin terest. The Chancellor of the Exchequer last night had favoured the House with those remedies. Ten minutes lie had devoted to molasses and emigration, and that happy idea of curing those deep seated evils by a loan less than the Government would propose to expend on one wing of the House of Commons ; and then he de votede have n7t bt ;i t: remember eo(mli f l u rbet l eh l arer l : t o hph u er r eeaNs a re n o.: d bt eao:Lvehoaeasrl with that (said tuheaht t girmere regret), inr explanation ie(oit )no when expres sion enh remedies—and hero they were. The first was concoe ce aaw N ns e o snu b mom l : ale: : L ee w o t irdethlat somethingghsert eea : t ' oe i N First atht in which I l e i csi t at i 4 i ynG s of i t ltt e oho r tasTitint pv t hno h eyr e nt w C t hah r yeo o s w ipesr n a cabto - icu Gen tleman) heard of that before. I well remember the interests(whose which so well becomes him, and which he never a t il t ; influence the country or the assembly he addresses — saying that he had every hope and confidence that the means by which the colonies would be enabled, not to extricate themselves from their difficulties, for they were not then involved in them, but to meet the dangers with which they were threatened—and which wo stated must come—was competition; and it is somewhat sin gular that, whenever the Government are told that great colonies are going to ruin, or that great interests are suffering from our legislation, the Government inva riably come forward with remedies which, when examined, turn out to be not facts but phrases—and if IA4A. . r ,. ~. not phrase's, mere abstract theories. Competition Is the rem qty. But what is meant by competition—whet Wang is it--se what sex—whether it he a god or a derni eod—whether a naiad cr dryad—we know nothing. Competition says one, enterprise says another. Thes are the remedies, and this is the staple of all their speeches.—(Hear. hear.) The shipping interest is le decline, competition will restore it; the colonies are in despair, enterprise will restore them to prosperity ; agriculture is suffering, enterprise is all that is required. —(Hear, hear.) The whole speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman last night, following that of the Prime Mi nister in 1846—couched in the same phrase, and mo delled in the same form—was the same competition. But what we want is for the Government to inform us what they mean by competition. I always understood that competition meant that between the rivals there should be equal circumstances. But are the circum stances equal between an English colony under our present system of legislation, and a Spanish colony under the legislation of that country? The difference between the two the historian might describe thus: that in the Spanish colony there was abundance of labour, for which they paid nothing, and in the English co lony there was a want of labour, for which they paid a great deal. 'Where, then, is the competition, and where the equal circumstances which should be the basis of a just competition 2—(Hear, hear.) But it is always so. The moment you attempt to regulate your conduct by abstract principles, and depart from those abstract principles, you are involved in inextricable confusion. A sage with whom we are all familiar tells us that practice is the b es t p roo f o f t h eory, an d t h at ex perience is always confounding the theories of men. I know of no better proof of the truth of this than the consequences of the competition we have created be tween the English and the Spanish colonies. In the exact proportion in which the l a b our o f t h e S pan i ar d s , for which nothingis paid, is brought into competition with the labour of the Englishman, for which he pays a great deal, you are, in fact, enacting a differential duty in favour of the Spaniard.—(Hear, hear.) You are establishing protection —not for the Englishman, but f it the Spaniard.—(Hear, hear.) The free-trade party and the free trade-Government, after all their wonder ful promises and astounding achievements, terminate their career by establishing protective duties in favour of the Brazils, Cuba, and Porto Rico. This is the con sequence of governing by a phrase, instead of by a fact. Competition as between Lancashire and Wilt shire I can understand ; but as between Cuba and Jamaica, under the circumstances which exist, it is a mere word, invented only for DsWning street and St. Stephen's—(Cheers)—as tulle/reuse for men giving thoughtless votes, which some day they would remember with a bitterness of reminiscence which the hustings only would recal. Sophocles had said that opinion was stranger than truth, but it was only for a short time, and gentlemen who came to that House confident in the power of progress should recollect that upon that sub ject the history of England would not offer an embla zoned page. Indeed, he doubted if the history of any country could show so much injustice to the national in terests at so great a cost as the abolition of slavery by the English people; and he attributed it to their having entered upon such an enterprise without a sufficient knowledge of the subject. It was a topic which was calculated to excite most benevolent feelings of humanity, which ultimately bore parties to political power. It was thought that if these results were achieved the fallacy would never be detected. But the course of time had shown it to be the greatest political blunder of the English people, who, in pandering to the ambition of great men, had not only injured a great peopl e , b at sacr ifi ce d , per h a p s ruined, a noble appendage to the empire, and stimulated, not perpetuated, slavery in every part of the world in which it was known.—(Hear, hear.) But the appeal on behalf of the colonists of this country was met by another class of objections from another class of great men, who came forward, cheered by the school of Man chester, relying urn the energy of their constituents, and fortified with details. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester had often called their at tention to the practical evils of the system, and parti cularly to the danger of our commerce, with what he called the great Brazilian empire. Ile (Mr. Disraeli) reminded him in 1846 (going no further back) that the population of Brazil was not more considerable than halt the population of London, and that the rest consisted of 3,500,000 slaves—a society which certainly could not stand in comparison with English colonies for civilise Lion, or for commerce either. And now he wanted to know from the Right lion. Gentleman, who was the apostle of the principle of buying in the cheap es t mar ket, and who ably represented the capital of commer cial fallacies—(Laughter)—what had been the result of sacrificing our commerce with our English colonies for our commerce with Brazil ? His own opinion on the subject did not rest upon mystical statistics, but was derived from what Dr. Johnson called a bit of truth—time and experience, and it was this, that there was not a third-rate colony belonging to England that would not in the long run have been a better customer; for, although less might have been taken, it would have been better paid for. He wished to know what it was that supported the industry of Manchester? lie observed that day that the home trade was improving, but he heard nothing of great orders from Brazil, or that her 3,500,000 slaves had changed their blue shirts for the trappings of Caciques. There had been n fair trial of commercial enterprise with that colony, stimulated by all the eloquence of the Anti- Corn-law League orators ; but it had signally failed, although it was practically and completely to have ob tained for us the great commerce of the great Brazilian empire. It was nothing more on the part of those orators than to palm on the people of England that they were in favour of free trade, when really they were only attempting to purchase in the cheapest market. And thus, notwithstanding all they had said about competi tion, energy, and enterprise, and notwithstanding that machinery to the value of nearly 1,000,0001. had been exported to these colonies, tho Brazilian trade turned out to be, as told them by an Honourable Gentleman opposite, but a poor trade after all. That England enjoyed cheap . sugar was no doubt a great fact, and although it might not suffice to console a suffering people, it bore the character of a practical result. But would any Member of that House contend that, if our colonies were to be subjected to this great injury, we should have any security for the enjoyment of cheap sugar ? Their colonies , produced 250,000 tons, and surely no one could deny that the total disappearance of that quantity from the markets of the world would have the effect of greatly increasing the price. Suppose we were prepared to encounter that, then was he prompted to ask, if cheap sugar was of such great ne cessity to this country, would we not be obliged to have it produced by slaves in English colonies? But, ad mitting that we could not retrace our steps in that re speet,which he denied, we must then purchase it in those countries which produced it at the cheapest cos' ; and what, he would ask, wonld be the consequence of the sudden investment of our capital in such a purchase? We knew what were the effects of the investment of a few millions in corn, owing to a bad harvest. But what must they be when our colonies ceased i to produce— when the consumption of this country increased —and when the demand for capital throughout the world was for investment in slave-grown sugar? Nobody would ever be compelled to consume slave-grown sugar, but a disturbance would be created in our monetary syst em , producing a convulsion which our descendants would rue, and which they would doubtless trace to the short-sighted and unprincipled legisl a ti on w hi c h had so long distinguished this subject It was a remarkable fact that all the calculations of the advocates of that legislation had resulted in the failure of the merchants and the bankruptcy of the colonies. It they converted the Senate into a counting house, it would not be long before the nation degenerated into a factory. Was it important to keep the colonies? lie could not suppose that if they ceased to be flourish ing customers, this country would be content to main tain them as mere barrack garrisons. It had been said by one lion. Member that this country might part with her colonies for a consideration.—(Bear, hear.) True there had beers countries as proud and powerful as Eng land that had for pecuniary considerations parted with their colonies Sp - sin had in that manner sold the Fleridas, and even the great Napoleon, influenced by the same omnipotent duty which now ruled the occupants of the Government benches, had sold for a consideration the beautiful province—the United States ; and there fore he (elr. Disraeli) thought that if the commerce of the colonies and the blessings of peace could be secured by the same school of economy, this country might do something in the same was with the same effects.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He saw no reason why this might not be the case, though he had been told that a desperate deputation had lately waited upon the Prime Minister of this country, and had asked the Noble Lord whether any objection existed to the colonies changing their allegiance. To this query no answer had been given, but perhaps a Cabinet Council might be ca l led to consider it—(Hear, and a laugh)—and the wretched colony of Trinidad might again belong to the powers which gave to it i ts sacred name—the miserable Mauritius, a flourishing community when belonging to . France,might be retur ne d to its former possessors ; tor it would be worse than the realisation of the fable of the dog and the manger for this country to retain either to their absolute ruin.— (Hear, hear.) Besides, even Jamaica seemed an incum brance—if so, the United States would gladly accept the possession of her, if offered.—(Hear, hear.) lie knew not whether the Hon. Member fur the West Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Cobden) was in the House.—(A voice— " He is below the bar.") He (Mr. Disraeli) was glad to hear that the Hon. Member was present, for he wished to remind the Hon. Member, thealthough the profound peace which he had announced might come within the time of those who heard him, still there was something in the catastrophes of nations scevior arnris—catastrophes from other causes leading to their decay. Happily in those causes the limited experience of the Roman em pire had not included the rapacity of rival industry and the quackery of economic science.—(Hear.) Mr. LABOUCHERE rose, and said that although he felt it to be his duty to ask the House to permit bins to make a few observations before the debate came to a conclusion, he had - no desire to protract his remarks to any length. He felt that the speec h of his Right lion, Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer so clearly and ably defined and explained the views and intentions of the Government, in reference to this subject, asto leave him (Mr. Labouehere) but little to add to his Right Hon. Friend's statements and arguments. Still, how ever, without going over the grounds already so fa m ili ar to the House, he conceived that such was the import ance of the question, and such his official position and connexion with the Government, that it would not be presuming in him to offer some observations upon the debate which had already taken place. It was not his intention to enter into a discussion upon the abstract or general principles of free trade. He assumed that he was addressing a House of Commons prepared to adopt free trade as a principle, that ought to regulate the fu ture commerce of this mighty empire. Ho believed that such was the case, not because the 'louse was pro pared to consider the Interests of the lowest of their constituents, or to betray those whom they were bound in duty to protect, but because they believed that in troth ad interests were identical, and that the principles of free trade were the best, not only for England, but for all other portions of this glorious empire.—(Hear.) If the House was disposed to retrace its steps, it could not take any more fitting occasion for now re-enacting the principle of protection to the West Indies, because he admitted with pain, that if deep and extreme distress could constitute a claim for such a course of legislation. that claim was at present possessed by that portion of the colonial empire. True it was that the cry of distress had proceeded on many former occasions from the West Indian colonies. It had been raised under the operation of slavery—it had been raised since slave emancipation, and, in fact, it had ever since been urged upon the House and the country. He would not enter into the question whether or not the distress was now more severe than it had been on any former occasion. All that it was necessary for him to admit was, that the distress existing was in reality severe, and that it was the duty of the Government without delay to apply remedies of relief which should be beneficial to the colonies themselves,:and at the same time consistent with the general interests of the community.—(Hear, hear.) It happened that the motion now in the hands of the Speaker did not involve the question really to be discussed. The motion was, in fact, for the appoint• ment of a Committee to inquire into the present post lion of the West India islands and the other colonial possessions. With regard to that question, be did not know what course the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck) meant to pursue. Many lion. Members had said that it would be better not to press the motion; but if the Noble Lord thought fit to do so, the Government would lend their aid in the investigation with a view to the general benefit of the whole commu nity employed within the dominions of the Crown. lowever, he must say that the course proposed by the Noble Lord was not one which the Government would have originated, but following prece dents on which inquiry had been granted when any distressed interest, whether the agricultural, the shipping, or the domestic, required it, he should be sorry to refuse it to those representing the interests of the colonial possessions of this country. But although such was the present motion, the real question at issue was, whether or not the principle of protection should be continued in the West Indies as a remedy for their distress. To that question he thought the Government was bound to give an explicit answer, and not to hold language calculated to create any uncertainty; and it was because the Government believed that protection would not really be beneficial, even if it could be granted in such a way as to be secure, that the Government felt bound to declare its opinion. In the first place, trade never could flourish under a system liable to constant changes, and alterations, and uncertainty. The Legis lature having come to a final settlement of the sugar question, it was now asked to prolong protection for some indefinite period, to reverse its decision over and over again expressed, and to involve the colonies in confusion and doubt. Honourable Gentlemen had taken various grounds. Some asked for protection for the producer of British colonial sugar against all foreign grown sugar. The West India body themselves had asked for protection against all slave labour sugar, stating that they could keep their position against foreign free-labour sugar. Now it was curious to observe that in the memorial of the West India pro ducers, in which they stated that they could not culti vate the land except under a protection of 10s. per cwt., they did not eels for a differential duty as a permanent system, but only for such a period as would enable then to become fully supplied with free labour. This request, therefore, assumed that they could successfully compete with Cuba and the Brazils if fair play was given to them, and they could obtain an adequate supply of free labour. He was glad to see this admission coming from such a quarter, as it was valuable as a contra diction to those who bade the West India colonists despair. On the question of protection he (Mr. La bouchere) retained the opinions he had always held, and he maintained that if colonial sugar was protected at all, it was idle to draw a distinction between foreign free-labour sugar and foreign slave-labour sugar, for otherwise slave labour would practically and in effect be encouraged. The Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Disraeli) had adverted to the case of the Mauritius ; and before he (Mr. Labouchere) offered any reply he could not but observe that his observation that the merchants who had been involved in ruin from their connexion with the Mauritius had been spoken of with scorn and con tumely was without foundation. He (Mr. Labouchere) had heard nothing in that House that savoured of that character. He for one could not but regard the calami ties which had befallen them with sympathy and com passion, and he could not think that the remarks of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer bore any other character. Such calamities had often befallen the wisest and most prudent merchants ; but the case of the Mauritius exemplified strongly the evils of a system supported by protection. He believed the Mauritius had been eminently the victim of protection. It could not be said that there was in the Mauritius a want of labour, for labour was there in abundance ; but, attracted by the prospect of high prices only to be expected under a system of protection, the merchant and others there had greatly exceeded the planting in that country. In addition, the rate of wages had been exceedingly high ; poor land had been taken into cultivation, and a most artificial state of things had prevailed ; and he be lieved all the difficulties in the Mauritius were traceable to that system of protection which had now been held out as the panacea for till the ills to which the British colo nies had been exposed. He rejoiced that an Honourable Member connected with the cultivation of sugar in the East Indies had to night addressed the House, because he had shown that the cry of distress was not confined to the West Indies alone, but also was heard in the East Indies. This showed that general and universal causes had brought injury and embarrassment into every part of the commercial system of this country during the past year. He hoped the West Indians would not listen to the advice of those friends who took so much pains to assure them that, under no circumstances, could free labour ever compete in those colonies successfully with slave labour. If that were true, of course the colonists would be justified in abandoning their estates in despair. But, in his opinion, it was any thing but true. Looking only at the broad facts, it was notorious that, in the face of the competition of the slave-grown produce of Cuba and other places, a great export of free-labour sugar had gone on from Java and other islands where free labourers were employed. Some doubt had been thrown on the fact of the labour of these colonies being entirely free ; b u t t h e l ate Par liament had legislated on that supposition, and the late Government had formed their calculations expressly on the ground of the labour in Java being free. And - it was very remarkable that in those countries where sugar was cultivated by slaves so little were they satis fied that the planters were taking measures to intro duce free labour. In Cuba, a society had been recently formed, under the presidency of the Captain-general of the island, the object of which was the general improvement of the cultivation. This society had offered considerable premiums to such planters as should introduce free labourers, and they had also made contracts for their importation from wher ever they could be obtained. Great difficulties had been foued in the way of introducing Europeans ; the Com mittee had accordingly taken measures for introducing Asiatics ; and this was going on with every prospect of success. They had already obtained 600 labourers from Asia ; and it was expected the number would be increased to 8,000. He had seen, in a Spanish news. paper, a letter from a respectable party in Ilavannah, dated 9th December last, giving a favourable account of the Asiatic labourers, and stating that their passage from China cost 501., their clothing 204, and their yearly wages about 404 The Hon. Member for Buck inghamshire had said the result of all this was, that the abolition of slavery was the greatest blunder ever com mitted by this country. He (Mr. L.) admired the in• trepidity of this assertion, but was convinced that it would not find a response in the breast of any other Member of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He did not be lieve that the house or the country had had any reason to regret the step then taken. All the accounts received from the colonies, up to the latest periods, bore tes timony to the perfect good government and general social improvement of the black population. However deep might be the regret of the House—in which he" most sincerely joined—for the distress in which the planters, the possessors of estates, and the merehasts were involved—he hoped only for the present—it must be mat er of rejoicing that, as far as regarded the great body of the population, the intentions of the House had been carried out, and their position at this time pre sented the most advantageous contrast to that which existed during their state of slavery. They were show ing themselves worthy of the boon which had been con ferred on them; they were acquiring habits of order and industry; and that part of the measure, at least, had not turned out a failure; for we should soon see a black population inhabiting those islands in a state of free• dom, able to exercise the rights and perform the duties of freemen, and to fu:fil the obligations of faithful subjects and good citizens.—(Hear, hear.) On one point there was a most material discrepancy of opinion between the West Indians speaking for thens• • selves and speaking through their advocates in that House—he alluded to the question of the navigation laws.—(Hear, hear.) Ministers had been taunted with pretending to understand the affairs of the West Indians better than the West Indians themselves; but he was only anxious that Hon. Gentlemen opposite would allow them to speak for themselves on this question. The House of Assembly of the largest West India island, Jamaica, in their address to the Queen on this subject, besought that their exertions might be wholly unfet tered, and that they might bo permitted to enjoy . free commercial intercourse with all nations. They pointed cut the adiantages possessed by Jamaica for becoming a great commercial depot for the interchange of the products of various countries if the navigation-laws were removed; and they added—" The benefit to .1 .6 " tnaica from such relaxation would be infinite. It is the most desirable boon that our inhabitants could receive from the Government. It would aid Jamaica to rise out of her difficulties; and would be hailed with exulta tion and acknowledged with every sentiment of gratitude and respect. It would be an honourable and generous concession on the part of Great Britain, which would exalt her in the esteem and admira tion of all other nations." (Hear, hear.) Having determined that no preference should be given to our colonies over those of foreign nations, Parliament was bound by every principle of the merest justice to take_ care that our colonists had the unlimited power of freighting the vessels of any other country which they. might think fit to employ.—(Hear, hear.) A somewhat extraordinary proposal had been made by the Nobes Lord opposite (Lord George Bentinck) in reference _te Cuba, for the purpose of putting down the slave trad. e • to the effect that as a large sum of money was due to this country to Spanish bondholders, we should,seize the island of Cuba. in payment of OW debt, and that free trade -- , the Government inva- as J, principle , that ought to regulate the fu- to the effect that as a large sum of money was due remedies which, when ture commerce of this mighty empire. Ho believed this country to Spanish bondholders, we should g seize the :acts but phrases—and if that such was the case, not because the Ileum) was pro- island of Cuba in payment of that debt, and that " 1