The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-18 00:00:00

- , ru sa. uld red 3ill kind, for they could only be consulted on questions of law arising on the proceedings of the House in its legislative or judicial character. As to the fears of the Right Rev. Prelate, he would say that all the 13111 was intended to accomplish was to place the law clearly and undoubtedly on the footing on which the Right Rev. Prelate stated it now rested, and to make it lawful for her Majesty to appoint an ambassador to the Court of Rome should she so think tit, on the advice of her re sponsible Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICLINIOND said he was prepared to vote against the second reaclicg of this Bill, for in his opinion there never had been a time less fitting than the present to make any further concession to the Roman Catholics. This measure would be considered a con cession by the Roman Catholics of Ireland, who, with their priests, had already taught this country the lesson, that the more that was given the more they demanded; the greater the concession the more ungrateful they were for what was done for them He entirely con curred with his Noble Friend who had moved that this Bill be read a second time this day six months; at the same time he asked his Noble Friend not to divide the House on this occasion, because it was clear from the state of the House the Government had a majority pre sent, and a division showing that majority might in crease the alarm throughout the country. lie felt that this measure ought not to pass—he entered his protest against it, and though he was willing to go into Com • mittee for the amendment of the Noble Duke (Duke of Wellington), and for that prohibiting any ecclesiatic being received as an ambassador from the Court of Rome, nothing would induce him to go one step further with the Bili.—(llear. hear.) The Eail of ELI)ON said, as yet he had not beard a single valid reason why this Bill even as amended is the manner proposed should pass into a law. Ile admitted the importance of the measure, but thought, at least, it ought to be postponed until the next session of Par liament, in order that time might be afforded for a distinct surrender by the Pope of the claim made by his predecessors of a right to interfere with the temporal rights of the Sovereign of this realm. This surrender the country had a right to expect to be made, and, with these views, if the question went to a division, he should give his vote against the second reading of the Bill. The Earl of ST. GERMANS thougt the east num bers of Roman Catholics who were to be found in every part of the British dominions certainly did render it most expedient that every facility should be given to the Government to hold communications with the Pope, whom they acknowledged as their head. Ile hesitated not to say, that if such relations as it was the object of this Bill to establish had existed years ago, we should not have heard so much of the violent conduct of certain parties recently in Ireland. It was impossible for cases not to arise in some part of her Majesty's dominions, in reference to Roman Catholics, in which a consultation with the Pope on behalf the British Government would have a meat beneficial effect on the peace and security of these realms. He did not at all participate in the apprehensions of the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley). Those apprehensions, in his opinion, were perfectly idle and chimerical. It was competent to the Pope to send any number of missionaries, Jesuits or others, members of religious orders, to this country at the present time. He knew perfectly well that there were many such in this country at the present time. The agents of Rome were busily engaged in this country, but if the chief agent were regularly appointed an ambassador to the British Court, there would then be less danger than there was at present, because all his acts would be more closely watched and better known.—(Hear, hear.) Other Pro testant countries had long ago taken the step proposed 4. by _this Bill. It should be recollected that this was not • l. to compel her Majesty to hold communication . eeeeie . h Rome ; if at any time it should be found expedient off such communication, it would be perfectly corn . 40 , 44 . to her Majesty to do so on the reasonable repro ,:•.-e,mefailetions, of the British Government.—(Hear, hear.) "fleit::Lordships• might be aware that a gentleman .rfeeeing. the Roman Catholic religion (Mr. More . 1 11 •errall) ,- bad bein ' recently appointed Governor '4' Malta - , and • 'it appeared that some differences existed betWeefi the Roman Catholic Bishop of that and the Government. Now, their Lordships must perceive the great advantage which would arise to her Majesty being allowed to hold direct communica tions with the Pope on the subject of those differences. , 'The Pope, on being appealed to by the British Govern ment, might interfere for the purpose of requiring the subordinate bishop to accede to the wishes of the British Government. —(Hear, hear.) He trusted that their Lordships would not sanction the introduction of the threatened clause with regard to the exclusion of an ecclesiastic from the office of ambassador from the Court of Rome, because the proposition was most mon atrous.—(Hear, hear.) None of the other Courts to which Rome sent a representative required any such Stipulation. With regard to what had fallen from the Noble Earl, as to upholding in all its integrity the su premacy- of her Majesty, he heartily concurred therein, and would be prepared to support any clause that might be deemed necessary for preserving it to the fullest extent.—(Cheers.) Lord REDESDALE did not think it desirable to enter at present into a discussion of the proposed amendment of the Noble Earl as to the exclusion of ecclesiastics. The Pope had claimed supreme authority in this country in temporal as well as spiritual matters, and it behoved their Lordships to watch the efforts of Rome with ex treme jealousy. Before the Bill was allowed to pass this country ought to receive an assurance that the temporal authority to which he alluded was no longer claimed by Rome. For the purpose of abolishing any pretensions of that sort, he had prepared a clause which he should propose in Committee. It was to the following effect:— " Provided always, and be it enacted, that it shall not be lawful fur her Majesty to receive any such Ambas sador, Envoy Extraordinary, Minister Plenipotentiary, or other officer, until the Court of Rome shall have declared that it doth not claim, and distinctly disown, any temporal or civil jurisdiction, power, superiority, or pre-eminence, direct or indirect, within this realM." The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied. With refe rence to what had fallen from the Noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond) he begged to say that this Bill offered no concession to the Pope. It was a concession to expediency, to state necessity ; it would afford facili ties to this country to defend and assert its best inte rests—(Hear, hear)—and that was the ground on which it was recommended to the Legislature. Let it not go forthlto the public that this measure made any conces sion to the Roman Catholics. With regard to the ex pressions of the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) in reference to Lord pinto's mission to Rome, he was also anxious to say that there was not one act connected with that mis sion, no one letter or instruction given to the Earl of Minto, no one act done by the Earl of Minto, which he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was not prepared to defend, and which ho was not prepared to state hid been done for the advantage and interests of the country, and which, if it were to be done again he should not be prepared to do.—(Hear.) That very mission, so dwelt upon by the Noble Lord, to his (the Marquis of Lansdowne's) mind, seemed the best, the strongest, and the most unanswer able that could be selected for illustrating the paramount necessity of this Bill.—(Cheers.) By Earl Mintu's pre- Bence in Switzerland a horrid civil war, which might have agitated the whole of Europe, was prevented. Lord STANLEY—That has nothing to do with this Bishop The Marq u i s o f LANSDOWNE contended that it had referenceioducd. e to the very object for which the Bill had been The Right Rev. Prelate near him (the 4 ' ish °P of Winchester) said the Government were already enabled to do that which they sought to accom plish by this Bill, and therefore the measure was alto• g e ther unnecessary. There .was, however, this important distinction to be drawn, that the Government sought to do in an open and avow,d manner, and by means Which were open to the influence of public opinion, that which was now effected secretly, indirectly, and circuitously.—(Hear, hear.) The mission of Earl kinto had been referred to. That Noble Lord was Ilecredited to Switzerland, he was accredited to Florence an d Was now accredited to Naples. In passing from Florenc e t o N ap l es, h e certa i n l y did, b ut n ot without design, pass some time at Rome, and the necessity of b l l staying there without a distinct mission was one of the strongest reasons fur passing a measure which Would enable us to enter into direct and explicit diplo, r attic communication with the Court of Rome.—(Hear, A ar.) On these grounds, he (the Marquis of Lana " The) hoped their Lordships would consent to the second reading of the Bill. If their Lord-hips should consent to the second reading he should fix to•mor row (Friday) for going into Committee, and he thought after the time that had already been afforded for considering the measure that would not be too early day.—(Hear.) The Duke of NEWCASTLE withdrew his amend ment, and the Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow (this day). Their Lordships then adjourned. our ,„ ROUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 17. -uhe O' PEALSER took the Chair a few minutes before Sir MARLOW ELECTION. Com mittee • PAKINGTON reported from the Com appointed to try the merits of the petition of eert a i u electors of the borongh of Great Marlow against the return of Mr. Thomas Price Williams a nd Colonel Brownlow Knox, that they had decided that both these gentlemen had been duly elected. THE WINDOW DUTIES. Mr. MACGREGOR presented a petition from !Fhoolmasters in Glasgow, praying for the repeal of the Windo w duties. Lord ALF RED PAGET presente d a p e tition to the same effect from Lichfield. THE DEFENCES OF THE COUNTRY. Mr. BROTHERTON presented several petitions against any increase in our war establishments. Similar petition s were presente d b y Ai r. W y ld , front Bedmin ; by Dr. Bowring ; by Mr. Bouverie ; °Y Mr. Cobden, from the West Riding of Yorkshire, and other places; and by Mr. Osborne, from Staines. HEALTH OF TOWNS. BUSFEILD presented a petition from the 11 or and aldermen of Bradford in favour of this 1 JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL. f a Dr' this ° rR B I Bill .G presented several petiti ons i n f r o i milar petiti ons were presented by Mr. Cowan, 1 , balkeith ; b y an Hon. Member, from New -411841,,e; by another Ho n . Member, from Portarlington ; uy Lord A. Paget (3), from Lichfield. MATTORNEYS' CERTIFICATE DUTY. Boli e Tt . lI9 DGES presented a petition from four A Irs, N. Praying for the real o this duty. lo M EMB ER present ep ed a f considerable num- Rucide petiti ons to the same effect, from sol i c i tors i n ply, Au ) andother P Drayton,oes Hereford, Gosport, Iltul 14 THE POOR-LAWS. Mr. ROBINSON presented a petition from Poole complaining of the operation of the poor-laws, anil praying that the poor might be maintained by a nar ticalal rate. THE TEA DUTIES. Mr. COWAN presented a petition from the Cham— ber of Commerce of Edinburgh, praying for the repeal of those duties. CHURCH-RATES. . _ Captain PRCIIILL presented a petition from Brighton, praying that Dissenters might be exempted from the payment of these rates. LOCAL TAXATION (IRELAND). Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice that he would, upoin an early day, move for leave to bring in a Bill to ex empt small tenements from local taxation. ISLE Oh" MAN. Dr. BOW.RING moved for tabular returns., showing the number of vessels, with the amount of tonnage, that have entere I the ports of the Isle of Man during the years ending the sth day of January, 1847 and 1848, distinguishing each port ; showing the several quantities of goods allowed to be imported into the Isle of Man under license, the quantities of such and other goods subject; to duty carried into the island, with the rate of duty charged thereon, and the several amounts re-. ceived, and amounts of revenue received during the years ending the sth day of January 1846, 1847, and 1848 ; also showing the several amounts of public moneys in the late Clerk of the Rolls' hands in the Isle of Man, on the 13th day of March, 1847, with the names of each estate to which they belong, and showing where the said moneys were deposited on the said day ; if in any hank or bankers' hands, in what manner the interest on the said money was appropriated, and by what; authority : and the number and names of the several high bailiffs, magistrates, judges, and members of tho House of Keys, who preside as judges in the civil oi! ecclesiastical courts in the Isle of Man, who are prat:- tising attorneys in the said island, and showing the names of the several courts where they preside an judges, and the courts wherein they practise as ad-• vocates or attorneys.—Motion agreed to. SHANNON NAVIGATION. Dr. BOWRING also moved for copies of the evidence taken before the Commissioners in November and December, 1847, for inquiring into the conduct of the Shannon Navigation Commissioners, with copy' of their report, and of any report of the audit board thereon ; and of the first report of the Commissioners. appointed to audit and report upon the accounts of the, Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, with copy' of any report of the audit board thereon : also for re turns of the Shannon Navigation Commissioners, and of the persons employed under them, with their sala ries and allowances : and of the Commissioners of the Board of Works in Ireland, and of' the persons employed under them, with their salaries and allowances: and, of the Commissioners and others specially employed in arranging and examining the accounts of the moneys advanced by the Board of Works in Ireland, and expended under the Acts 1 Vie., c. 21, 9 Vic., c.l, and 9 and 10 Vic., c. 107, with their salaries and allowances, and incidental expenses; also, the funds out of which the payments have been made, and the authority for payment. Motion agreed to. THE SOLICITORS OF TETE COURT OF CIIANCERY. Ain C. ANSTEY moved that the petition of the solicitors of the Court of Chancery, presented on the 10th of February, be printed with the votes. Motion agreed to. JEWISH DISABILITES. Mr. HUME presented a petition from the burgh of Montrose in favour of the removal of Jewish dis• abilities. Sir R. INGLIS presented several petitions against the measure for the removal of the Jewish dis abilities. Mr. LAW also presented a petition to the same effect. SUNDAY TRADING. Mr. HUME presented a petition praying the House not to interfere in any manner with Sunday trading. OATH OF SUPREMACY. Mr. LAW presented a petition praying the House not to pass any measure calculated to remove the oath of supremacy, or to allow Romish ecclesiastics to appear in the public thoroughfares in the dress of any of their orders. GAME-LAWS. Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that, this day fortnight, it was his intention to ask leave of the House to in troduce a Bill for the amendment of the game-laws. PETITIONS. Lord INGESTRE presented a petition from a place in Stafforthhire, in favour of the health of Towns Bill Mr. FORBES presented a petition from a town in Scotland praying for a redeal of the Bank Act of 1844. Mr. lIERRIES presented a petition, signed by 130 of the merchants of Liverpool, praying the House to relax the restricting provisions of the Bank Charter Act. Lord NUGENT presented a petition praying fcr the abolition of capital punishments. ELECTION COMMITTEES. Mr. B. COCIIRANE wished to put a question to the Eight lion. Gentleman, the Chairman of the General Committee of Elections. lie wished to know whether it was not the duty of an officer of the ilow.e to give notice on Wednesday, at twelve o'clock, to the several Election Committees that the House was sitting. No such notice was given yesterday to the Committee of which he was a member, and the consequence was that many lion. Gentlemen who wished to be present during the debate on the motion brought forward by the Hon. Member for Youghal were prevented from being in the House. He thought it a great hardship that Committees should meet on Wednesdays when the House sat on that day. However, he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it was the duty of any officer of the House to intimate to Com mittees that the House was sitting, and whether upon that intimation the Committees had power to adjourn ? Mr. FOX MAULE said he did not feel himself called upon to answer the question, but he appre hended Committees had power to adjourn for short intervals. NEW TIOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr G. THONIPSON wished to know from the Hon. Mamber for the University of Oxford when it was his intention to move for the appointment of a Committee relative to the New Palace at West minster ? Sir It. INGLIS said that he should bring forward the motion on Thursday, the 2l of March. FINANCE. Mr. HERMES then rose to move the following resolution, of which he had given notice :—Tha , , locking to the state of distress which has for some time prevailed among the commercial classes, and to the general feeling of distrust and alarm by which the embarrassments of t ra d e h ave b een aggrava t e d, itis the opinion of this House that her Majesty's Ministers were justified, during the recess of Par liament, in recommending to the Bank of England, for the purpose of restoring confidence, a course of proceeding at variance with the restrictions imposed by the Act 7 and 8 Vic., c. 32. That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House upon the said Act. He proposed further to move in Committee, that it is expedient that the limitations imposed by the Act 7 and 8 Vic., c 32, upon the Bank of England, and the Act 8 and 9 Vic., c. 46 and 37, in relation to the issue of notes payable on demand, be suspended, subject to such conditions as may he provided by any Act to be passed for that purpose. His motion consisted, in point of fact, of two motions, and it would be the most correct course if he blended the two motions in one. The subject of the motions arose out of the operation of the Bank Act in the last year. The events of last year created more alarm, distress, and pain than had ever been produced within the memory of any person present. Never was there seen such a period of perfect prostration. The fai urea which occurred in the latter end of the year were in point of magnitude and im portance never surpassed. There were no less than 220 failures of considerable amount, of these 85 represented property to the amount of 12,000,000/. The total loss occasioned by the whole of the failures had been estimated at a sum of not less than 30,000,000/. Such events as these ought not to be passed without the most anxious and serious consideration upon the part of those connected with mercantile affairs—(Hear, hear)—in order to ascertain if possible the causes of such calamitous results, and to endeavour to find out some remedy to prevent their recurrence in future.—(hear, hear.) The object of the first part of his resolution was to record the opinion of this !louse respecting the con duct of her Majesty's Government, in taking steps to stay the desolation and ruii: which then swept ov e r the commercial establishments of this country, to record their opinion that the Government in taking that step were well advised, because they found that by taking that step a remedy was really found, and the mischief averted.—(Bear, hear.) What was the position in which this house was now placed ? It was this. Her Majesty had announced to them that she had been advised to adopt a most extraordinary course, which, however, was justified afterwards by the result, and had authorised the violation of a law recently enacted, having for its very object the en forcement of the strictest obedience to its provisions. —(Hear, hear.) Up to this time the House had not expressed any opinion on the subject of that violation, nothing had been done to ascertain or record the opinion of this House upon that violation of the law.—(Hear, hear.) He held that her Majesty's Government were justified for what they had done, but it was necessary that some public record of that opinion should be made.---(Hear.) Why had not THE SION, LONDON, ' this been done before ? He must say that her Ma jesty's Government had not acted, in his opinion, so fairly or frankly to the House as he thought they ought to have done.—(!fear, hear.) There had been an evident desire upon their part to avoid any debate upon the subject.— (Hear, hear.) Upon the very first night of the session the Right Hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a sort of a rush down to the House for the purpose of appointing a Committee to sit upon the question, instead of having a debate upon thelsubject. But still this Committee, though appointed, would not touch the point which he now brought before the House. He felt it his duty, therefore, to bring for ward this subject with a view to its being properly discussed and a deliberate opinion recorded upon it. It was maintained by some Members of that House that the Act of 1844 did not create the difficulties that occurred last year. Well, if that were so, what necessity was there for relaxing its provisions in October ? Upon what other ground could Government justify the policy they then pursued than that the Act had produced the mischief?—(Hear, hear.) But there could hardly be a doubt that the Act brought into existence the mercantile difficulties this country suffered under last year, and he would venture to tell the House that had the relaxation of its provisions been delayed one week longer, the commerce of London would have been stopped. Ihe reduced state of the Bank securities had given rise to the utmost alarm, and those who had money in their possession were exceedingly cautious to whom they advanced it, if, indeed, they would lend or part with it at all. But it was said this state of things was not necessarily the consequence of the Act of 1844, but arose out of the mismanagement of the Bank. Now he thought lie should be able to show that it was no such thing, and that no skill or ability on the part of the Bank directors could have averted the crisis which happened last year. He would give a simple relation of the events that oc curred in 1847. The Act gave rise to dis tinctpanics sit two distinct periods of the year. In the early part of the year the demands made upon the Bank for the purposes of food gave rise to the utmost alarm, and when the coffers of the Bank be came reduced to the lowest point tolerated by the Act, a crisis arose that shook many noble commercial houses in the country.—(Hear.) It had been said that great mismanagement had taken place on the part of the Bank of England ; he had looked most carefully into the subject, and he saw no reason for saying that there was any mismanagement on the part of that establishment. Added to this, he was convinced that the acts of the Bank had not led to the monetary crisis that took place last year. He believed that the inherent vice was in the Act itself, and not in those entrusted with carrying it out, and believing such to be the case, he should move the suspension of that Act. It was probably true that the issue of bank-notes had not conformed itself to the fluctuation of the bullion. The real effects of the operation of the bul lion upon the issue was in direct opposi tion to the theory of the Bill. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth had himself admitted that although there was a considerable reduction in the amount of bullion in the coffers of the Bank, still there was no corresponding diminution of the issues of bank-notes.—( Hear, hear.) The rule was thatfor every million of bullion decreased in the coffers a corresponding restriction of one million in the cir culation should take place. Now the decrease in the bullion at one period of last year was about 9,000,0001. ; there ought therefore to have been a corresponding reduction in the circulation of 9,000,0001. What would have been the effects of such a reduction in the circulation of a country where it was assumed that 20,000,000/. was a sufficient amount to meet all the demands for the circulating medium of the country ? The operation of the Act of 1844 prevented the Bank of England during the late pressure from issuing a single note to relieve the pressure of the crisis, although at that time 8,000,0001. of bullion was lying idle in the coffers of the Bank.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") It had been said that the Bank of England had acted in error in reducing their rate of discount to so low a sum as 2i per cent. It might be that for the interests of the country they had anted erroneously, but the directors were bound to act in the best manner they could for the pro motion of the interests of their constituents.—(Hear, hear.) The framers of the Act had no right to com plain of this conduct. When the Act passed there were 16,000,000/. of bullion in the Bank of England, and although they charged a low rate of discount, still up to the middle of 1845, not only had no diminution taken place in the quantity of bul lion, but it had actually risen to the sum of 16,600.0001.—(llear, hear) —a larger amount than the Bank had ever possessed during the whole period of its history.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time these was no doubt that the Bank of Eng land was in some measure responsible for the undue expansion of commerce, which was consequent upon I the low rate of discount which they chargel—(Hear.) The rate of 2i per cent. discount was, however, continued ashen there was a sensible diminution in the amount of bullion, caused, no doubt, by the failure of one of the staple articles of food in this country. The rate of discount then rose to three and a half per cent. Again the bullion rose in amount to the sum of 16,356,000/., and the discount was again lowered to 3 per cent., which was conti nued from that period to the month of January, 1847. On the 26th of December, 1846, there was more than 15,000,000/. of bullion in :the Bank. But in January, 1847, the pressure upon the metallic resources of the Bank began to be severely felt, for it fell from upwards of 15,000,0001. in December to almost 14,000,0001. The Bank was not wanting in taking precautionary mea sures, for in January, 1847, it raised the rate of interest to 3i- per cent. The next week the drain continued, and the Bank once more raised the rate of interest to 4 per cent., at which they kept it until the diminution of the bullion to 9,867,0001. in September or October, when it was raised to 5 per cent. He thought he had now shown that there had been, at all events, no neglect, no absence of watchfulness, upon the part of the Bank; that, with the rise and fall of their bullion resources, they had diminished or increased the rates of interest; and that, in short, they had sedulously followed in the very foot steps of the Act, which, it could no longer he dis guised, was the real cause of what had occurred.— (Cheers.) But it had been said that if the Act had failed in securing the public against a great monetary derange ment, it had at all events been effective in one respect — securing the convertibility of the paper circulation. Now he (Mr. Herries) would say with great deference, that the Act had done nothing whatever to secure the con vertibility of our paper circulation.—(Hear, hear.) There was a great difference between saying that con vertibility was secure, and saying that the Act had occasioned that security.—([leer, hear.) The Act was passed when there was 18,000,000/. of bullion in the Bank—in its progress that bullion had declined to less than 10,000,0001. Were they to laud this Act for its having prevented a still further decrease?—(Hear, hear.) If they would give it such praise, they were bound to show upon what grounds it was entitled . to that praise.— (Hear, hear.) But in what state was the Bank in October last? Why did the Government send their persuasive or recommendatory letter to the Bank if this Act worked so well? Was there not a want of con filence? Was there not a general want of credit? Was there not an altuost universal fear and distrust? and where then was the security afforded by the Act, amid where was the use of securing money which could not be used?—(Hear, hear.) lie would contend that they were much better off under the old system; and he con tended, with great deference to the high authorities by whom his opinion was opposed, that the country would have been in a much better position if this Act had never been passed.—(Hear, hear.) That was his strong, sin cere, and matured conviction, after the fullest and most careful deliberation upon the subject. He thought it would not be altogether useless to endeavour to show to the House what might have taken place under the old system under similar circumstances. What would the Bank have done under similar circumstances to those which occurred between January and October, 1847, if it had been unfettered by those now regulations and re strictions, and if ii had been at liberty to make use of all its resources for the purpose of discharging all its liabilities ? It would have looked to the circumstances which bad occasioned the drain, to the possible pressure, to Or, causes of the drain, and the probability or im probability of its duration ; it would have considered all its resources, its gold, and notes—its reserve ; and it would have, as on all former occasions, have done its utmost to meet the exigency, and to have provided, not only for its own internal interests, but for those of the public, which, he felt bound to say, the Bank had never neglected.—(Bear, hear.) Between January and April, 1847, the Bank would have carefully looked to the state of the foreign exchanges, and if it had it would have found them favourable—it would have looked to the course of commerce, and would have found that no great falling-off had taken place there ; it would also have considered the failure of one of the principal articles of food, and seen that great exer tions would be made for procuring provisions from abroad—exertions that 'would require a considerable drain of gold. But the Bank, if lett to itself, would not have caused alarm by suddenly raising the rate of inte rest to u high figure—they would have felt perfect con fidence in their own resources—they would have felt perfectly assured that there would he full convertibility, and they would have altogether prevented the demand which unfortunately arose for internal purposes.—(hear, hear.) lie hoped the. Government would not eltoe,ether trust to the Committee which had been appoi n t e d. Ife believed the danger still impended, and that the mone tary affairs of the country were on wrong principles, and that there was no guarantee that what had happened last year might not happen again in the present year, or in the next.—(Hear.) The Government might, perhaps, find it more convenient to wait until the Committee had reported, however tedious that delay might be.—(lleer, hear.) The Government might wish to avoid the responsibility of any interference with the pre sent Currency Laws, and might wish to throw the responsibility upon the Committee ; but immediate legislation upon the subject was necessary. They were, beyond:all dispute, in a position of great dan ger—([fear)—they had, he repeated, hanging over their heads the possible recurrence of that catastrophe which L had occurred last year. It was the duty of the Govern , ment and of that ilowe to do all they could to remove FRIDAY that incubus which still pressed upon the springs of in dustry, and which damaged public confidence and public credit. It was their duty to at least endeavour to restore a better order of things—a system ef management under which the commercial activity and enterprise of this country might be once more edvantageously exercised. —(Hear.) It was not upon this country alone that this pressure had fallen—it had fallen upon Scotland likewise, in which country great depression existed owing to our present monetary regulations. He asked them at pre sent, for the sake of the commerce of the country—for the sake of the industry of the country—for the sake of the manufacturing districts, where the labouring classes were now labouring under great distress—for the sake of the moneyed interests themselves, not of those who had accumulated large fortunes under the operation of the present Act—(llear, hear) but for the sake of the general and industrious monetary interests—he entreated the House to agree to the proposition he now made to them, which would replace those interests in the state of comparative safety—he believed he might say complete safety—which they enjoyed before the passing of this Act. The measure he proposed was a purely reme dial one, and if Parliament in its wisdom should at any future time determine to adopt a now system in place of that which was at present existing, there was nothing in his motion which (meld hind any one either to one opinion or another. Ile hardly thought it right to tres pass iut ther upon the patience of the House with regard to this branch of the motion. Ile was aware he had treated it very imperfectly, but it had been his wish to confine himself throughout to simple argument. On the first part of his motion, however, it might still be neees sary to offer a few observations. He was aware that to this part of his motion it would be objected by many that they were not satisfied with the conduct of lee. Majesty's Government—that they did not wish to ex press any opinion as to the course which Government took in October ltst; but that if they must do so, they thought Government ought to have interfered earlier, and that if they had done so much mis chief would have been prevented. Now, he was undoubtedly of the opinion that if the Act of 1545 had been set aside at an earlier period, it would have been better for the country; but then he looked to the re sponsibility of her Majesty's Government—he was willing to put himself in their position, and consider the monstrous responsibility they incurred by their uncon stitutional act of suspending the Act, which was a step to be taken only at the last extremity—(Hear.) Then some persons might object that there was a Committee already sitting upon this subject, and that the Ileuse ought to wait for their report. Now, if any Hon. Gen tleman thought the Committee which was now sitting was likely to propose any measure that would relieve the present distress—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—of course he could not expect his rote. Then it might also be objected that there was no cause for apprehension, for her Majesty's Government bad already, when the case was urgent, taken a step to relieve commercial distress, and that if the like circumstances were to occur, there could be no doubt they would do so again. To this he would answer, that it was not fair to throw the whole responsibility upon Ministers, and that if Ministers interfered at all, it would only be, as on the last occa sion, at the last extremity. Upon the whole, there fore, he submitted his motion with confidence to the House.—(Cheers.) Mr. HASTIE (Paisley) rose with no ordinary satis faction to second the motion, and ho did so with this strong conviction on his mind, that he had never before heard a more able, clear, and pratical explanation of the question than that to which the House had just listened. It was, he thought, very , clear, that if this Act were per ' witted to remain, whenever there was a short harvest, or a foreign loan, or a disposition on the part of the people generally to hoard money, there would be distress in the country. No rise in the rate of interest would prevent a drain of bullion, when that drain was caused by the purchase of foreign corn or the other causes he had mentioned. If the Act of 1844 were of that utility which some parties would have them believe, there was still no occasion for its remaining, because it had not placed them in any better condition than they were in before. In 1838 there was the sum of 10,000,0001. iu the Bank. The pressure was then not so great as in 1846, because there was no failure in the potato crop, nor was the bad harvest which had occurred in England ge neral over the continent; but if there had been only 10,000,000/. in the Bank in 1847, as there was in 1838, he would ask what their position would have been in that case? The banking department must have stopped pay ment, and he need hardly say that if one department of the Bank stopped, whatever might have been the amount of bullion in another department, it would have been said at once by the general public that the Bank of England had failed. He would further observe that pre vious to 1844 the Bank of England had never allowed discounts below 4 per centS; but on the passing of the Bill they were told they would have nothing to do but to attend to their business as bankers; and believing that, and having a large stock of notes in hand, they naturally turned them to the best account they could, and thus reduced the rate of discount to 2} per cent. The consequence was that bills for short time went to the Bank, while bills for six, nine, and ten months were eagerly sought after by the brokers and bai,kers, with a view to discounts. This it was which had given such ' a stimulus to credit as, in a great measure, to be the cause of the undue speculation that succeeded. Such was not the effect v, hich any measure a this House ouelit to produce, and yet there could be no doubt that the (Got of :lie all of 1844 was, when money was plentiful, to render it more abundant, and when it was scarce to tel'l to the scarcity ; so that in its twofold operation it was dan gerous to the country. It was an extraordinary fact, which the House would do well to bear in mind, that a rise of 1 per cent. on the bills afloat, which were calcu lated at au average rate of 600,000,000/. a year, was a charge of 20,000/. per month upon the commercial in terest. Now the interest upon those Wile had occasion ally been raised as high as 3 or 4 per cent. ; so that the loss must have been enormous. He thought the greatest condemnation of the Bill was to be found in the speech of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the former discussion, when he stated that, not withstanding the many suggestions he had received from so many deputations which ho then received, ho and his colleagues found that nothing would do but a suspension of the Act, and that as soon as the Act was suspended it had the magical effect of restoring confidence, and caus ing even more bullion to enter the Bank than was re moved out of it.—(llear, hear.) lie cordially seconded the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Right lion. Gentleman had truly said, at the outset of his remarks, that though ho would make one speech he would submit two motions. He thought no person who read the resolutions submitted by the Right Hon. Gentleman could entertain a doubt of that. Tho one motion expressed approb at i on o f t h e step w hi c h Go vernment had taken in October last; the other went to pledge the House to an opinion that the Act of 1844 and 1845 ought to be permanently suspended. There could be no doubt that he might be right as to the sus pension of the Act in October, and yet wrong as to the propriety of suspending it now. On the other hand, Gentlemen may be disposed to blame Government for suspending in October, and yet be willing to suspend now. The Right Hon. Gentleman said the Govern ment accorded a discussion on the last occasion. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know what the Right Hon. Gentleman meant by that statement, for he had certainly gone, he feared, at greater length than was a greeable to the House, into the whole ques tion—the discussion lasted for three nights. Twenty two Hon. Gentlemen gave their opinions upon it, and s imply because no other persons appeared disposed to offer their opinions the debate was closed.—(Cries of 44 No, no, the debate was adjourned.") That was be cause nobody else seemed willing to address the House. With regard to the resolution expressing approbation of the conduct of Government, of course, he had nothing to say. His own opinion was that he had done right, and if the Homo chose now to express approbation, the Government would receive it with satisfaction ; but as he could not approve of the second part of the motion, and thought it he had no objection if the Right Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the second part, that he should withdraw the first also—(Laughter)—and then the whole motion would be as if it had not been. The Right Hon. Gentleman Dr o p ;std in his second motion to suspend the Acts of 1844 and 1845—that is to say, to suspend the laws by which the issues of hank notes throughout the United Kingdom were now regulated. Whether that suspension was to be per manent or temporary, the Riche Honourable Gen tleman had left them in some little doubt. It did not seem to him that the slightest ease had been made out for a temporary suwension of those laws. The Right Honourable Gentleman stated, and very truly, that the alarm which existed in October last was caused by the low state of the reserve fund in the II ink. He concurred with a great deal that fell from the Right Honourable Gentleman, that in the autumn the alarm which existed originated not in the conduct of the Bank, or through the operation of the Act of 1844, but in causes which were altogether unconnected with them. lie believed there could be little doubt that the alarm was caused by the want of accommodation in the Bank, by which they were usually enabled to discount commercial bills. In the course of the autumn a number of hillsbrokers stopped or suspended payment, and th e consequence was a demand for accommodation from the Bank of England to an extent that was quite unexampled. The discounts applied for at the Bank last year were double the amount of what was asked in th e Oc tober preceding.—(Hear, hear.) They discounted no less than from 6,000,0001. to 7,000,000/. from the increased demand for acco mmodation on t h e part of the public. In so doing they reduced the amount of their reserve to the point that was stated by th e R ight Hon. Gentleman, and there arose an apprehension that the Bank could afford that accommodation no longer, and that was the cause of the panic. No doubt his opinion was that this was originally owing to th e l ow rate of interest that had previously exist ed, and he w as equa ll y clear that the real effect of his letter in O cto b er was to place the Bank in the same position as if it had more money in reserve. Parties were restored to the belief that they could get accommodation with the Bank if they wanted it, which immediately allayed the panic, ta!ten out, a s t h e Ri g h t. the whole amount ,iithequently Hon. Gentleman lad stated, being under 400,000:.___ (Hear, hear.) hear.) What was the state wi I, the Hulk re serve at the present moment ? According t o t h e st to ment in the Gazette of last Friday, there were then of notes and coin in the Bank a sum of 8,185,000/ ; an d h e had seen, just before he came down to the House, the return which the Bank had sent to the Treasury, and which would appear in to-morrow's Gazette, and he found the state of the reserved fund to be-, of Lobes and coin, the sum of 0.686,0001- Mr. PATTISON—And what is it now? The CHANCELLOie of the EXCHEQUER be lieved it was increasing, but be thought it better to refer to statements which were or would be accessible to all the Members. There could not, therefore, now be the slightest apprehension that the Bank was not in a posi tion to afford assistance. lie might alto state that, EVENING, FEBRUARY lB, 1848. I though slowly, the trade and commerce of the country were now gradually reviving; and there was no likeli hood of any public demand which the reserve fund would not be able to meet. If the Right Honourable Gentleman's motion had been brought en in December last, when notice of it was first given, and when Parlia ment was about to separate, perhaps theremight have been some plausibility for it, though even then he should have opposed it. Not the slightest case had been made out for a temporary suspension of the Act of 1844; for the dan ger, against which they were asked to provide, was one of the most problematical kind. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had intimated something more than a temporary suspe ns i on o f t h at A ct; h e propose d to sus pend it until Parliament should otherwise provide; and therefore he might 'as well have asked the House for a repeal of that Measure.—("Hear ' hear,") from Mr. Herries.) Then he lik e d thi ngs t o be called by their right names—(Hear, hear)—and he thought it would have been far better if the Right Hon. Gentleman had directly proposed what he inteeded to effect under the guise of a temporary suspension.—(llear, hear.) But he could not conceive anything that would so com pletely stultify the proceedings o f t h at H ouse as to en tertain this motion now, having before Christmas unani mously appointed a Committee to inquire into the whole subject--(Hear, hear.) That would be to judge first and hear the case afterwards. The Honourable Gen tleman himself might bo satisfied with a suspension of the Act of 1844; but another Honourable Gentle man near him thought that, unless they altered the Act of 1819, they would do no substantial good. The Honourable Member for Birmingham thought that the Act of 1844 was only a necessary consequence of the Act of 1819; and many others were of the same opinion. Then in that conflict of opinon, upon what ground could the House proceed? Therefore the Com mittee had been appointed; gentlemen of various shades of opinion were members of it, and he hoped that much valuable information would be obtained. Of course the Right Hon. Gentleman must follow up his motion by another to rescind that Committee, because it would he perfectly idle for that Committee to coutinne its labours throughout the session, if the House should now, at once (whatever might be the result of those labours), take upon itself to decide the whole matter. On a former occasion the Right Hon. Gentleman had thought it quite essential that they should know the whole state of the Bank of England. Now, the Governor and Deputy-Governor were to be examined before that Comintttee, and he looked to their examination with very groat interest, as likely to afford the fullest in formation on that subject. It seemed to him, therefore, a most premature proceeding—to use no stronger term —to call upon the House to decide before it had ro ceived the information stated to be so necessary.— (Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that he was anxious to avoid a general discussion on the cur ' rency; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) quite agreed in that wish; slid, if they got into the merits of the Act of 1844, ho did not see how they were to avoid the general discussion, and if they could not avoid it, they were embarked on an ocean of which the shore or any haven was very distant. They had now arrived at a period of the session when the public business must be proceeded with. To-morrow his Noble Friend would make his financial statement; the time would soon come when the estimates must be voted, and he did not sup pose that the estimates of the present year would be passed in so peaceable and quiet a way as they had been in former years. He hoped, therefore, the House would not encourage any lengthened debate on the subject; no practical advantage could come of it, and he, at all events, would not set the bad example of embarking on that endless sea of discussion. But there were one or two points to which he wished to advert merely to prevent misapprehension. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the promoters of the Bill of 1844 had thrown blame upon the Bank for reducing their discounts to 2} per cent.; but he did not know who those promoters were. He knew, on the other hand, that several opponents of the Bill had laid down the doctrine that the Bank of England ought always to discount at one uniform rate. —(Hear, hear.) And if, therefore, blame was to be cast upon any one, he hoped the Right Hen. Gentleman would place it on the right shoulders.—(Hear, hear.) Again, the Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the Bill entailed upon the banks the necessity in England, Scot land, and Ireland, of holding bullion to the amount of about 3,000,0001.; but what was the fact? In England it did not entail on the country bankers the necessity of holding one single sovereign, though it gave them an issue of 8,000,0001. In Ireland also, it had not entailed the necessity of holding one sovereign more than before, and, in point of fact, last autumn, when it was said that this measure was so mischievous in its effects—that au tumn, the experience of which was pointed to as fatal to the measures of 1844 and 1845, the circula tion was 1,000,0001. below the authorised circulation. In Scotland the case was rather different; for there the circulation was higher than the authorised circulation by 4 70,000 /. ; so that they were bound to hold gold to the amount of about 500,0001.; and taking all the three countries together, under 500,000/. in gold was all that the Act had required. The Right Hon. Gentleman had also remarked upon a dis crepancy between his statement on a former occasion and that of his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Portstneul (Mr. Baring), and had said that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had stated that there was no great diminution of circulation, whereas his Right lion. Friend had stated that there was a great diminu tion. But the statement of his Right Hon. Friend ap. plied to the interval between August, 1846, and April, 1847; and his statement applied to the period between August and October, 1847. It had been said that the groat distress last autumn was caused by the diminution of the notes with the public, which, since the Act of 1844, was a snuck more correct expression than circula tion; and ho had answered that that could not be so, 1.-cause from August to October there had been no groat diminution. His Right Hon. Friend, on the other hand, had said that, according to the principle of the Act of 1844, there ought to have been no considerable diminution between August, 1846, and April, 1847; but that there was that diminution, Ho merely alluded to these points to prevent misappreheusioa; ho did not wish to set the bad example of entering upois a general dis cussion of the currency; he hoped the House would not do so, and would not now prejudge a question which was undergoing full investigation. Alderman THOMPSON said that ho would not en courage a general currency debate, but would confine his observations to the question under consideration. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer hail rested his opposition to the motion on three grounds; first, that the present position of the Bank, compared with its position in October last, was so much improved, that no danger was now to bo apprehended ; the second was, that Parliament was sitting ; and the third, that a Committee had been appointed.—(Hear, hear.) As to the first, he had the satisfaction of agree ing with the statement of the Chancellor of the Exche quer as to the improved condition of the Bank ; but he must remind the House what was the state of the Bank this time last year.—(llear, hear.) In January, 1847, the Bank had of bullion 15,000,0001.; and in the reserved banking account 8,000,0001.; in April the bullion was reduced to 5,000,000 L, and the reserved account to 6,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) It might be said that the price of corn influenced that diminution ; but ho would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he saw perfect security in the present state of Italy and France, and whether they might not be involved in such difficul ties as would produce again a great drain of bullion (Hear, hear.) The present position of things was, there fore, not such as could be safely relied upon.—(Hear.) As to Parliament sitting, ho must beg them to remember how the last House of Commons had treated the petition of the merchants of Londoa, pointing out the dangerous position of affairs, and the remedy which seemed to them applicable. Had they attended to it iu the least ? (Hear, hear.) And what security had they that the present House of Commons would pay more attention to their representations than the last ? As to the Com mittee, he would only say that that Committee met on the 4th of February. This was the 17th, and they had examined two witnesses.—(lfear, hear.) Considering, then, what had been the suffering of the country, did they think that the country would be satisfied to wait for the repot t of that Committee as to the causes of the late distress and the proper remedy fur it ? lie believed that if the country entertained any such hope it would oily end in disappointment.—(Hear, hear.) Those who witnessed the calamities of the past autumn must know that it was utterly impossible for this country to endure again such a financial pressure and its coin• merciial and manufacturing interest continue to exist. His Right Hon. Friend the Member for Stamford had stated that ISO houses had failed, with obligations amounting to 30,000,0001. ; and he was sure that his Right Hon. Friend did not overstate the case ; they know those who had fallen, but they did not know all those who had been ruined by that pressure.—(Hear, hear.) The trade between the continent of India and this country was prostrate ; there was neither credit nor capital to convey our manufactures in India ; seven or eight millions of dishonoured bills returned to England ; and without the intervention of the East India Company the produce of the East Indies could not be sent hero ; but he placed full reliance upon that great Company. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the .Exchequer had said that there was no doubt a great deal of pressure through the failure of bill-brokers ; but that was not all, for ho ventured to say that there was no establish ment (he did not except even bankers of the highest repute) whose credit did not suffer suspicion during that pressure. It was impossible to negotiate bills to any foreign country against shipments of goods ; for, on the continent of Europe they believed that all London was baukrupt.—(Hear, hear.) What was the state of Newcastle ? Why, but for the inter ference of Mr. Grote, the manager of the branch bank there, the most disastrous consequences must have fol lowed, and Mr. Grote did himself immortal honour by the course which he had pursued ; he (Alderman Thompson) even doubted if the public peace could have been maintained but for the timely assistance rendered by that gentleman. The same state of things existed in the wont of England. What was the cause of it all? He was glad to hear now, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because on a for near occasion he had ex pressed a different opinion, that he believed the panics of 1847 was not to be attributed either to the management of the Bank of England or to the Bill of 1844. Then to what was it attributable ? On the e3d of September the Chancellor of the Exchequer assurtelleta4e(yti beak which waited upon him , that t h e r e were p notes to be had, and that ad the difficulty ar ose f rom speculation and miscalculation ; but he thought it might now be fairly asked, whether he was not the miecalcu lator—(Hear, hear)—and whether,if he had been aware of the mischief that was to take place before the 23d of October, he would not sooner have written that l e tt e r to the Bank, the necessity of which he fully admitted? Now money was abundant ; it might be had on good security upon easy terms ; and yet now there were two millions less of Bank of England notes with the public than there were on the 25th of October, w h en every one was complaining of being ruined, on account of the difficulty of getting bank-note. 13etweezt the 25th of September and the 30th of October there was an increase of notes to the amount of 2,754,000/, and of gold coin issued to the public of 2,202,0001., making together 4,956,0001. ; and yet money was not to be had under or par cent. IS cent. It was that monstrous discount which bruught down so many houses. But this was not all • for, as the value of money increased, the price of produce fell. —(hear, hear.) With regard to speculation in the commercial world, if they looked to their imports, with the exception of sugar, there was not a single article in excess ; and what were the particular circumstances of the case ?—(lfear.) They had just made great altera tions in the duty—(Hear, hear)—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the vastly increased impore ' tation and consumption would help to supply the defi ciency in the revenue. Was not there, then, great inducement held out to merchants to import sugar largely ? As to corn, at the beginning of the year the Government were importing it themselves; and, in con sequence of the high price, questions were being asked in that house whether the Government had considered the expediency of paying a bounty on its importation? Further, a day of humiliation was appointed on account of the distress with which the country was afflicted; and what was the consequence? All these things made the British merchants ransack the world for corn—(llear) —and, instead of being abused as they had been, they were entitled to the gratitude of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The average price of wheat in London was in May, 1847, 105 s, per quarter; and in August 51s. Such changes baffled all calculation; but he contended that no man ought to be called a speculator who imported goods for the market, taking his chance of the prices— that was legitimate enterprise, which British merchants had always followed; but lie was a speculator who bought up articles of necessity and general consump tion, and stored them for the purpose of keeping them out of the Learket, diminishing the supply, and raising the prices. The promoters of the Bill of 1544 had said that if it did not prevent, it would mitigate panic. Ile would take no blame to himself on account of that Bill, because he had opposed it from the first, and had yen tared to offer his opinion that it would produce very mischievous effects. They had been told that as the bullion came in the Bank would issue notes, and as it went out the Beek would contract its issue of notes; but that had been found wholly impracticable. When the foreign exchanges were favourable it was exceedingly easy to manage the Bank of England, but, in his opinion, when the exchanges were adverse, and discredit prevailing, it was utterly impossible that the Act of 1844 could prove available for the purposes it was intended to serve. We were told by the promoters of that Bill that the way to prevent an inconvenient demand for bank notes wee to raise the rate of interest ; but the fact was that the higher the rate of interest the greater was the demand for bank-notes, because the greater the discredit the more anxious were solvent commercial men to pro vide themselves with bank-notes to an extent exceeding their actual wants. 11. had already alluded to the feel• ing which existed abroad as to the state of English credit, and as showing the opinion which prevailed in the United States as to the commercial and financial position of England, he would read an extract from the New York Herald of the 10th of November. The extract as read by the Hon. Gentleman, was to the effect that the monetary crisis, and the frequent financial changes which had taken place in England, had greatly diminished her commercial influence, whilst the influence of the United States had been proportionably auemented. The writer went on to describe England's difficulties from the large amount of her national debt, the state of Ireland, and so forth, whilst he depicted the glowing prosperity of the United States, and the rapid advance it was making as a manufacturing country. As showing the state of public credit during the crisis, the Hon. Gentleman referred to the reduction which took place in the price of Consols, and the large discount which had to be submitted to to secure the sale of Exchequer-bills. Was it not essential, he asked, that measures should be adopted to prevent a recurrence of so disastrous a state of matters ? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had called upon those Gentlemen who disapproved of the Act of 1844 to tell him what they actually wanted, and not to attempt to do indirectly what they hesitated to do by direct means. For himself, ho did not say that he wished to repeal the entire Bill. He was anxious, how ever, to see that part struck out which limited the issue of the Bank to the extent which it did, and also the limitation placed upon the issues of notes upon the se curity. There never was a greater mistake than this latter limitation.—(Hear, hear.) Ile was positive that great advantage would have arisen had the Bank been allowed to issue notes upon the security of silver to the full value of that silver. He was anxious to maintain the convertibility of the bank-note. Ile was opposed to all doctrines about a domestic currency. In his opinion a domestic currency meant nothing more nor less than a depreciated currency.—(llear. bear.) Were such a policy adopted, England would soon be in the position of Russia, where there was a silver and a paper rouble. In England we would have one bank note payable in a fixed amount of gold, and another note payable in nothing at all. He would allow the Bank of England to issue notes to the full value of silver, because silver was the standard in Europe. When the exchanges were un favourable silver left the country, and when silver was exhausted, gold followed, and, according to this 'view, silver might be regarded as being available to the pay ment of gold. With regard to the country banks, he did not think that all the threatenings of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would prevent the evasion of the Act which restricted the use of silver, should a deficiency in the ordinary currency respire it. Ile would not tres pass longer upon the attention of the House, but would implore Hon. Members to adopt the motion of his Right lion. Friend, and net allow the character and credit of the commercial and maculacsurina interests of the country to be sullied—interests which he bud vlways looked upon us c ssC nti al to the prosperity and stability of the country. —(I [car, hear.) Mr. W. BROWN, who was very indistinctly hemmed, having adverted to the causes of the late commercial diffi culties, observed that the Bill of 1844 was a dead letter until the panic came, and then, so far from doing a het its promoters had promised—prevent fluctuation of prices and secure confidence—it had aggraa eted the evil. There had been greater oscillation in the price of money under this Bill during the late crisis than in any former period of financial difficulty during the last 25 years. In 1825 the rate of discount was--the lowest 3i, the highest 4} ; and in 1832 the lowest was 21, the highest 4 ; in 1837 the lowest was 3i, the highest 5i ; in 1839 the lowest was 31-, the highest 6i, being a diffe rence of 2/ ; and in 1847 the lowest rate was 2:;, and the highest nominally was 6k'; but with commission it was in fact from 15 to 20 per cent„ and even at that rate in numerous instances solvent houses could not obtain advances. The Bill had also occasioned hoarding. In Liverpool alone he believed he could show that a million and a half had been hoarded to meet con tingencies, and to enable merchants to meet their engagements, and to take up such bills as might come back dishonoured, especially such as might be in the hands of the Bank of England when the protesting of any bill was attended with some discredit upon the houses whose names it bore. He was an advocate for freedom in banking, perfect security being taken for converti bility. The question was riot now, however, whether they were to maintain or abolish the monopoly of the Bank of England; but he contended that they should make it efficient for the public good. So far as the Act of 1844 carried out the principle of convertibility em bodied in the Act of 1819, and required payments to be made in metallic currency, based on a fixed price for gold, he concurred in it. Ile was aware that many argued that as the national debt was contracted in a paper currency it was unjust to require its repayment in gold; but when the contracts for the loans were entered into it was stipulated by Act of Parliament that six months after the restoration of peace payments in specie should be resumed; and had it been supposed that payment would be made in a depreciated currency, Government would never have obtained the loans on the terms they did—perhaps not at till—and had that been the case this country would now probably be a French colony. Ile saw no great advan Cage that could result from a mixed standard of silver and gold. Silvor would always buy gold, and gold was much the more easy and portable medium for commere cial transactions than silver. He thought there was extreme danger in allowing the growing commerce of this country to rest on an issue of 14,000,000/. based on securities. He believed the Bank of England had done what it could to preserve the public credit, and while it was necessary that a discretionary power should rest somewhere, he did not think it could be in better hands than that of the Bank. To show with what attention the Bank of England was regarded, he cited the case of a merchant in America, who, on being remonstrated with for overtrading by his English correspondents, said that he was governed in all his operations by the con duct of the Bank of England. Now, if the Bank was thus regarded in foreign parts, it was most necessary that the Government of this country should have the power of putting it on the most stable foundation. But ho knew how uninteresting the subject was to the House generally, and he would only further express his regret that he could not go with the Right lion. Baronet in his measure. It would be desirable, he thought, not to amend, but at once to repeal it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUDSON regretted that this subject had not been brought forward at an earlier period, Nothing was more calculated to disappoint the country than the course pursued by the Government in referring this important question to a Committee. They had been naked if they were prepared to repeal the bill of 1819. That, however, was not the question at issue. They were told by another speaker that railways caused ale distressed state of things. But the fact was, that the railway calls in January, 1848, were larger than in Janutsry, 1847, and yet money was now only at 3 per cent. It' railways, then, had anything to do with it, why was not money as much in demand now as it was last year ?—(llear, hear.) They were told they were consuming the capital of the country; but if they looked at the coffers of the Bank of England now, they found them full even to repletion. The truths was, the importation of corn was entirely the cause of the crisis. —(Hear, hear.) That importation had now ceased, and, therefore, our stock of money remaiued undrained. No doubt the country had been in a desperate state last October. In Newcastle, for example, if some thing had not been done to prop up the local banks, it would have boon necessary to introduce mili tary into the town. 'What they had principally to com plain of was, that solvency at that time was not-pro tected. If the reason of' their not affording each pro- ' tee:ion was the operation of this Act, then , he said, repeal it.—(Cheers.) Who defended the Bill ? «hat commercial man in that House would get up and argue in its favour ? Common consent condemned it. No member of the Government said that it seas necessary. —(Hear, hear.) He hoped when the Government next I wanted money, the Bank would o nl y let them have so much as they could afford in justice to other customers. It was notorious that the Bank let the Chancellor of the Exchequer sweep away in one day a great part of th e i r reserve, which obliged them to limit the amount of their discounts afterwards. This was a very blameable mea sure. But he thought this was about the oialy act of the Bank to be complained of. The Chancellor of the Ex - chequer, on the other band, had decidedly made very great mistakes, and it was now quite time that he made up his wind as to what he meant to do, and as to the principles on which he would act in future. For his own part, he (Mr. Hudson) thought the Bank ought to have almost unlimited power of issue, always, of course, pre serving the convertibility of the note. Mr. MACGREGOR, representing a large and most important constituency, felt it to be his duty not to give a silent vote. He was compelled to consider that the Bank Charter Act of 1544 was not an Act adapted to the wants of a great commercial country. He believed it was as impossible for Parliament to regulate the price of money as to regulate the expansion or contraction of the mercury in the barometer. He knew no parts of the world for which the Act was calculated, except a village in Holland, where the population had not in creased for the last 600 years, and where no young couples married until their fathers and mothers died. — (Laughter.) It was all very well to attribute the panic to over-speculation. But was it possible to carry on the commerce of the country without speculation? He had heard it said that the great houses w hi c h f a i led during the panic were unsounl. When ho consi.lered the ra mifications, the engagements, the enterprise of those houses, he lamented to hear such observations made. In his opinion, it was most necessary that Parliament should deliberately, but speedily, settle the subject. lle 'believed the Act of 1841 was one in which tho country had no confidence. For some time to come it might be of very little consequence whether the operation of that Act was limited or net; but, at some future time, the measure would be assuredly of the greatest national im portance. So much with regard to England. With respect to Scotland, he thought the operation of the Act f 1844 was universally vornplained of in that country. If it had not been for the Scotch bahkii;g system, the prosptty • • of the British Isles could never have risen to its present height. Ho condemned the alteration in foto. Mr. MASTEItMAN trusted that the House would adopt his Right Hon. Friend's motion. lie had, in 1844, strongly insisted upon the Government retaining a discretionary power, and experience had since demon strated the necessity of such a provision. Mr. HUME considered it essential that some distinct inquiry should be made as to the reason why these monetary panics were constantly recurring in this coun try, in a manner quite unknown elsewhere. He had objected to the Government Committee, because he fore saw that its appointment would be made the excuse for such an answer as that of the Right lion. Baronet to such a proposition as that now before the House.— (Hear, hear.) The Hight Ilon. Baronet had talked of a foolish judge, who first decided and then inquired. It appeared to him that the Government, in the matter of the Bank Act suspension letter, had been precisely this foolish judge, fur it was admitted that it had acted.with out any previous inquiry. lie had said on a former occasion that 150 000,0001. had been lost by the recent operation of the Bank Act; but, in point of fact, the actual less sustained was quite incalculable.— (Hear.) The conduct of the Government in seeking to evade a discussion of its measures in relation to the Act of 1844, by referring the matter to a Select Committe, was most reprehensible.—(hear, hear.) The feeling of the House on the subject, however, seemed pretty clear, Every gentleman who had spoken that night on the subject, with the sole exception of the Right Hon. Baronet, had declared that the measure of 1844 had wholly failed in its professed objects.—(Hear, hoar.) There seemed to be, in the House as well as out of it, a decided convic tion that the Act ought to be repealed. It was out of the question to suppose that the country would submit to continue exposed to such jeopardy as that to which the Act of '44 subjected ia—(Hear.) The result of that measure was only another proof of the fact, that what ever branch of business in this country was protected, fostered and hedged round by monopoly, was always involved in disasters. The East and 'West India inte rests, the shipping interest, the silk trade, were all proofs of the same proposition. Ho attributed the whole of our late distresses—and we had not yet seen the worst, he feared—to the circumstance of the currency having been placed on a false basis of protection and mo nopoly. No paltry attempts merely to palliate the evil would avail. The mischief must wholly be eradicated.—((ries of " Hear, hear.") 'There was one feature in the Act of 1844, of which he approved, that which established a fixed standard ; but alt attempts to restrict the circulation of the country, to shackle the means by which commercial transactions were carried on, must be utter failures.—(Hear, hear.) He wished the Right lion. Gentleman opposite had come forward at once with a motion to repeal the Act; but if the mo tion he proposed were adopted, it would lead to repeal. —(Hear, hear.) The letter of the Government to the Bank directors manifested very cleatly the opinion of the Government that the measure could not stand.— (Hear, hear.) It was on the face of the thing absurd, that with the increasing commerce of this country there should be laws to limit the means by which commerce was conducted.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Act relating to Scotland, he had never heard of any man connected with Scotland who did not denounce it as most mis chievous. What had been the practical effect of the measure upon the immediate circulation in that country ? In 1542 3 the average of gold in the Scottish banks was 428,8431. ; in 1846-7 that average was 1,119,0001., being an increa,e of nearly 800,0001. ; and representing the average amount to which the banks found themselves compelled by the Act to refuse to trade the accommodation essential to its conduct. What was the average of notes in circulation at the same period. ? In the former period, 2,700,0001. in the latter, 0,325,000/. He did not blame the direc tors of the b inks, is ho had a most difficiil; task to per form. The blame lay with those aho imposed these i:pon th"m. Worm! TllWlP:.'so.N.!upperted themotion. The Act if 1844 wit, a inea,ure for fending IT all such demands For aid for traders as should pass beyond a cortaie rule hich Goaernineut e.midered to mare tlio li.nit of dia cretbn. The queat:ou was, whether this rule bud been established as proving the pt., cenceiced discretion, or whether it was a rule which, as being intitscret t, should be set aside. lie had heard it said that the concession made by the Government in October seas a virtual con cession of the fallacy of the Act. He did not adopt this proposition as a necessary consequence, for the Govern ment might have been induced by the cry for assistance. Mr. MUNTZ reminded the House that there had been panics before the one or last year, and that In tilathey,,c.ohuelad not be attributed to the Bank Act of 44 the occurrences of October, 1847, were ascribed to the operations of the Right lion. Baronet's (Sir R. Peel's) Balking Act, these who did so committed a gross blunder. The Government certainly had no right to meddle with banks, either public or private; and as long us that interference existed he feared he should see con tinual crashes in the money market. The whole of the cause, and the only cause, of the monetary panics was that the theory upon which the Chancellor of the Exche quer and the Right Hon. Barouct opposite based their system was wrong. 'The theory to which he referred was that which supposed there was such a thing as a standard of value. There was no such standard; and the sooner that false and erroneous system was abolished the better. If the Bill of 1844 was repealed the evil would still rennin in full force. As long as the standard of value system was adhered to, the country would ex perience panics and be exposed to all the misery result ing fruits such a state of things. lie felt perfectly satis fied he was right upon this subjeci; and the Right Hen. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Herries) must not flatter him self ho would remove the causes of distress by repealing the Act of 1844. It was not that Act which had occa sioned the mischief. It gas the Bill of 1819.—(A laugh.) lie would, however, vote fur the motion before the House, because he deprecated a NIT which was nullified the mo ment it came into operation, as the Bank Act of 1844 had been by the letter addressed by thu Government to the Bank of England in last October. Mr. LABOLTUBERE said that the Right lion. Gen tleman opposite had urged on the House not to allow • itself to be drawn into a general argument upon the subject of his motion, as there was much danger, owing to the nature of the subject, that lion. Members woulai stray (ruin the immediate question before the House. He should endeavour to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman's injunction in ofterieg his reasons to the House for not giving its assent to the proposal. One thing had beets universally admitted by nearly all the speakers— namely, that if the motion were agreed to, the decision would reverse that which appointed a Committee to in quire into the monetary question —(No, no.) He heard it doubted that such would be the virtual effect of the motion being carried, but he must again affirm that the fact had been candidly admitted by all who had spoken on the motion that evening,. By the appoint ment of the Committee the Government had en tered into an agreement with the monetary interests to consider. maturely the laws which affected the whole question, and he was not prepared to say that after the subject had been fully examined the law might not be relaxed. The only effect which the motion would have would be to unsettle the public mind as to the results of the Committee. Some Honourable Member , had said that the law stood condemned by nll, and by the Government in particular, by whom some of its , provisions had been suspended. He must beg to deny the truth of that proposition. lie denied that the sus pension of the Act for a temporary purpose was eon demnatory of the measure. There must exist pi power •of relaxing the laws upon great emergenc i e s, but that did not tend to prove the law to be a bad one. lie did not mean to say that it might not be found necessary to modify the law, but he must affirm that suspending .h it was without n oti outfeeling condemnati on. elinggreat commiseration coec w oul wis d not n s o pea fo k r o t t hos t e wh e late o panic had suffered by it. But the Act of 1844waa not acees sory to that panic.—(Hear , hear.) Something had been said about having over - s p b ec ub u tl ts m t l i ie o e n hmadustb ee observe one svte thatf the principal causes, and UlOll 'attendiug the late upon examin- I t i l e mse sho " u h ld ° mg intouumstuarupercissed rash speculations, which crisis, those engaged in the importing trade ware ac quitted the fseac d c ranchisr c 0 After the length ha muchvngoef entered lag in t t li ' stress, ened discussion of that evening h would not trespass a u d i tt e e l d us o e t a further on the time of the House than to express his hope that they would not reverse their former decision, which a Co • by Committee Was appointed to examine into the monetary etate of the co it• • s. Is might be said that coaenittees were all a farce, hut he reminded the 'House that no great changes had ever been maile in the monetary laws without the previous inquiry and re port of a Committee. —(Cries of" Divide.") Mr. 1 1EII1tIES would only offer a few words in reply to the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. lie had 'laver bafore witnessed a debate, the speakers on which, with some exceptions. were all on one side of the ques tion. Amongst all parties there was a growing feel ing that the Act of 1844 ought to be repealed. The only objection of any weight against his motion was that there was a Committee sitting on the subject up stairs, and that the House ought not to prejudge the question. But there were many topics which were 110 k '6to come wader the consideration a that Comraiike ; ich ID° I it ntS 7