The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-20 00:00:00

, there every day—it was so severe as to be a disgrace to any ~ civilized country. He knew many who' were actually pre - vented from going out to beg from the mere want of clothes.—( Hear.) He knew many who were seen wan dering about in the day time in rags, and who were obliged to trust these rags to another being who had been confined during the day by want of them. Amongst other things be recom mended an extension of the system of public works in Ireland, a measure which he understood had been contemplated by a Noble Duke formerly at the head of the Government. Mr. O'CONNELL rose with great reluctance to oppose the present motion. He was convinced that the best inten tions actuated those Hon. Members who had supported it, but , he found their charitable feelings had led them into an error of judgment rather calculated to mislead the House than to effect the humane object they had at heart. Such a resolution as the - present instead of relieving poverty would tend to per petuate pauperism. .He hoped the House would mit pledge itself to any such resolution. If a Bill had been introduced at once it would not pledge the House so firmly as this resolu tion s for a Bill even after the first and second reading might be so altered and amended in Committee as not to be the same thing in the end. Then there was great indefiniteness in the wording of the resolution. What was the meaning of " help . less?" Why it included every able-bodied man in the country, who, with a large family and a tolerable appetite, had no work and nothing to support himself and his family. Then there • were the " aged" to be included. Now though there was un ' doubtedly great poverty in Ireland, there was this moral feeling existing amongst the poorest of its inhabitants, that no Man would allow it to be said of him that he had neglected his , aged mother or father. That moral feeling would -be broken in upon if the poor law system was to be introduced. The course which the Hon. Member intended to pursue with his project was highly objectionable and tedious. First, there was to be a resolution passed ; then a Bill introduced ; then that ' Bill was to be referred to a Select Committee ; the evidence • was to be had before that Committee ; and so the session would came to a close before any division had been arrived at. There was a Commission already at work, inquiring into the state of the poor in Ireland, and the evidence they had already collected exceeded anything that English Gentlemen could conceive of wretchedness, an proved amongst other matters that the poor were supported almost entirely amongst them selves. The beggar was driven from the rich man's door, but he was always received on applying at the door of the needy cottager. He wished the report of this Commission were on the table of the House, in order that they might see what re lief could be afforded to the Irish poor without destroying that 'integrity and honour which at present existed amongst them. He would entreat the Hon. Member not to press his motion at present. This was a question which should not be brought on or discussed under the influence of party feeling. If poor -la Vis were to be introduced into Ireland at all, it should be under 'the sanction and under the responsibility of Govern ment.--( Hear, hear.) The poor laws had not prospered so well in England, after all; and a most extensive experiment was adopted'in the last session, in the hope of remedying great and long-existing evils which had grown upon them ? 'Why . . could not the House see how this experiment would answer be lore they extended its operation to Ireland ? He should move the previous question by way of amendment. Mr. F. O'CONNOR agreed with the Hon. and Learned . Member for Dublin that there were many objectionable fea tures in the existing system of poor laws ; yet still he thought that, even with those evils they were preferable to no provision at all for the relief of the distressed. He had hoped when he heard the Honourable and Learned Member allude to the dis advantages in the method in which this question had been brought forward that he would at least have suggested some better course, but he had not done so. For his own part he (Mr. O'Connor) would not be content to leave this question in the hands of Government, espeeially after the opposition - which the Right Hon. Baronet opposite bad given to the mo tion of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough the year before last. He (Mr. O'Connor) was one who wished to see the laws respected in Ireland ; but that they could not be whilst the people remained so poverty-stricken. He hoped English Gentlemen would not suffer a motion having this for its object to be swamped in the way the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had attempted. The Hon. Member for Dublin, though powerful on other occasions—and he (Mr. O'Connor) was glad for the interest of Ireland and the cause of liberty and .justice that he was so powerful— ( Hear, hear, from a section of the Opposition, and laughter from the Ministerial benches) —yet with all his power he was quite powerless on this ques tion. That Hon. Member would find himself borne down by the force of public opinion. He trusted for the interests of his country that the Hon. Member would go on with his mo tion and press the consideration of this important question again and again on the attention of the House. The present Bill only proposed to grant relief to the aged, to the infirm, and the helpless young ; but that relief was not enough to settle the present disorganised state of Ireland. He (Mr. ' O'Connor) would go much farther. He would not limit him self to this species of partial relief, to be extended to particu lar portions of the people. He would have a classification of society in Ireland, and without this there could be no good effected for that country. Yet he would take all that he could obtain, though that might not amount to the full demand of justice he was entitled to make. He knew many Irish land lords, who had been before hostile to the introduction of poor laws into Ireland, change their opinions lately, in consequence of the growing necessity for that measure. At present every farmer's house was a poor-house. Let not that House talk of agitation, or social disorganization. The poverty of the Irish —the absence of poor laws—was the fruitful source of both. Neither let them speak of giving wholesome laws, and grant ing measures of legislative liberality, while the people wanted wholesome food.—(Hear ' hear.) While the people were famishing, they would be discontented ; and there would not be found persons wanting to foment this discontent, engen dered by poverty.--(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. O'Connor) in tended to bring in a Bill on this subject, but the Hon. Mem ber had taken it out of his hands ; and he was glad of it, from the superior mode in which the Hon. Member could deal with it. The present misery c ief Ireland was to be traced to the system of giving small farms and subletting, with all their concomitant evils. He hoped Ministers would give some ' pledge that they would take up this question- Mr. P. SCRO PE next addressed the House—Were the people of Ireland happy ? They could not be said to be so. As a question then of policy some provision should be made for the starving poor of that country. Then as to the other question, that of humanity, he would ask should the people be suffered to starve? The distress of the Irish poor led to starvation—periodical famines in that country were so frequent as to become matters of notoriety. The population it was shown had turned yellow from feeding on weeds. Was that a condition for a people to be left in, or for a people to endure? • __( Cheers.) The Hon. Member quoted long extracts from Parliamentary reports, to show the extensive distress to which the Irish poor were occasionally subjected. The starving man would not be content to die in tranquillity ; he would sooner commit outrage to keep up life, and hence much of the po pular disturbance. A great portion of the Irish poor were unemployed most of the year. From this cause originated the Whiteboy system, which was the Irish poor laws—a system which was sanguinary in its nature, and whose officers were assassins. -4 Hear, hear.) When they brought in Bills for the observance of the Sabbath, and the prevention of cab nui sances, and other measures, would they not consider the pre sent subject, which was of far more importance ? Mr. G 0 ULBU RN felt it his duty to vote for the previous question, not from any disinclination to afford the Irish poor relief, but because he did not feel himself competent, like many others, to come to any resolution that would assess the property of the Irish landlords. If Irish property were to be thus taxed it should not be done by a resolution of the House, for the question was of too grave a nature to be decided by 'a resolution. It was better that some positive legislative enact ment should be introduced, when every Member could give his opinion on all the parts of the proposed measure, than thus prejudice the question, and pledge the House to a resolution. It would, he maintained, be most inconsistent in the House to come to the proposed resolution, when the subject to which it referred to was-undergoing the inquiry of a Commiss'on. The House had during the last Session determined upon appoint ing a Commission to examine minutely and accurately into all the details of the question, and unless they were prepared to say that the whole labours of that Commission should be thrown aside, they could not entertain the proposition of the Hon. Member for Clare. It was admitted on all hands that the inquiry had 'been well conducted, and that the report would bring the ,whole bearings of the case well before the House, and under such circumstances could there be a doubt as to the expediency of their waiting until it was before them ? There was reason to expect that very little further delay would inter vene, for he was informed by the Commissioners, that with respect to one branch of the inquiry all the evidence had been collected and was already in the course of printing, and that, within a few days, they expected to conclude their inquiry as to the other branch.. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Gen tleman expressed a hope that the Hen. Member who intro , duced the motion would consent to its postponement until he saw what might be the decision of Government upon the ge neral question, to which decision they cou ld not come unt il the report of the Committee was before them. • Mr. ROCHE trusted the Hon. Member for Clare would act upon the advice of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and post pone his motion until the result of the inquiry, then drawing to a conclusion,' was made known. Mr. RICHARDS said that if the motion was pressed to a division he would vote in its' favour, but as he agreed that pending the inquiry by Commission it was premature to bring the question before the House, he thought the best plan would be to postpone its consideraticin.until the intentions of Govern ment on the subject were made known. Mr. S HEIL suggested that as the word " helpless" in cluded young children, it would be as well to omit it, and con . fine the resolution to persons incapable of obtaining a liveli hood in consequence of malady or old age. •Mis HUME was decidedly opposed to the extension of Poor Laws to Ireland under any shape, and would, there fore, oppose t the present or any future motion having that • measure for its object, no matter in what quarter it might originate. Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I shall abstain from entering into, or endeavouring to confute, the arguments of those Hon. Gen tlemen who have expressed their objection to all Poor Laws— who are rather willing to leave the industriously-inclined poor to their own chance of applying their exertions, than to the more practicable plan o f es t a bl is hi ng a system of relief. But, before Hon. G ent l emen must be aware that the question really the House is, whether they would agree to the resolu tion now before them in its present shape, or whether they , would defer any specific resolution until they had some of those , -- pniliculars before them that would enable them to come to a Icorrect conclusion. Whether, in fact, with all the ae ,..,t'^`, - etun4ed evils and inveterate abuses of the English Poor i ts,... , '; ,. l,.. f air •qtey would transfer , that system to Ireland. Such a '•-s 7 ' poi* , I should think, must at once be negatived. I should 'sir* ino • 0.1 ~y to see the Act of Elizabeth extended to ( . • Ireland, acc om panied with we ll-f oun d e d pract i cable provisions - known Id . against K existing abuses. But the proposition before . i; ' 7 , ;k: ' .. 7 , the House has no such object in view. - It would be a most ungracious task—and I should be extremely sorry if the Hon. Gentleman opposite should force us into it—to give a negative of affirmation ; but as it is not implied that he has any inten tion of submitting a plan for legislating upon the subject I cannot see how—indeed it seems to me impossible—the House can affirm the assumption contained in the motion now before it. He asks the House to affirm that which, if it is in earnest to do, it cannot do until it has an assessment of all the pro perty in Ireland. Instead of this unsatisfactory method of proceeding, I should propose that some such resolution as this should pass the House, " That leave be given for the Hon. Member for Clare to bring in a Bill to improve the state of the poor in Ireland."—( Laughter.) It is not usual to embody the whole conception of a Bill and confine it to one clause. But in this case the House is asked to do something worse. The motion now before us says let the House of Com mons at once and without delay carry certain resolutions re lating to the poor of Ireland into effect. I say, in return, let us 'know the details on which you would found those resolu tions, for all resolutions I presume it will, be admitted must have some details to go upon. The Hon. Gentleman says he would have assessment : now he would ask him what he means by that ? Does he mean that he would assess all the real property in the country, would he assess all the personal property, or does he intend that it shall be a parochial assessment? It has been said by the Hon. Member for Cork,who has been watching his motion with a painful and prentaal anxiety—(vhy, he is not here said the Right Hon. Baronet, looking across the table in a tone and manner that created great laughter)—however, that Hon. Member had said that on a former occasion I got up and pro posed that a Commission should be issued to inquire into the state of the poor laws in every country in Europe. The fact is that I had been listening to a very unprofitable debate, and I did suggest to the then Government that a Commission should be issued to inquire into the subject, and which Commission at my suggestion was issued accordingly. That was two years ago ; and I must say that I did hope we should have been pos sessed of the result of that inquiry long before this time.— ( Hear, hear.) All matters connected with local interests and peculiarities were to be inquired into by the Commissioners ap pointed ; and I must say that instead of forcing resolutions upon the House, instead of complaining generally of delay, it would be more logical and more according to the forms of this House, to move a resolution that the Commissioners do report forthwith. This may be done, or the affair may be left in the hands of the Government, who will lose no time in urging the completion of the necessary report. If the Commissioners were to report now they will have to leave many of the minor details incomplete—such as the number and character of infirmaries and other - establish ments of a charitable nature. If inquiries into the greater branches of the subject were completed, I' see no reason why the report should not be speedily laid before the House, and I have no doubt my Right Hon. Friend the Se cretary for the Home Department would lay before the House any information in his power upon the subject.—( Hear.) But to the present proposition I see every objection. The Hon. Member for Tipperary speaks of the helpless poor. Why, who are the helpless poor? It is a vague phrase. Every child not capable of earning bread by its own labours might be included in that definition. The motion states " that it is expedient to make a provision for the aged, help less, and infirm poor of Ireland." Now really, Sir, I think that nothing can be more unwise than for us to be called upon, to affirm so general a proposition as this. We are called upon to affirm a general proposition, without understanding out of what circumstances that proposition arises. Who are the in firm ? It would be difficult to draw the distinction between infirmity arising from age or deformity, and that which is the result of stinted food. Without defining your exact meaning you open the door, Sir, to every description of imposition, to every degree of poverty; nay, Sir, I fear, to claims for relief from three-fourths of the population of Ireland. Is it not, then, of the utmost primary importance for us to arrive at de tails before we attempt to enter into resolutions. I admit the importance of administering relief to the poor willing to work, but I cannot, on that account, admit the advantage of assessing all the property in Ireland. If that plan were to be adopted without a true regard to all the owners of landed property in Ireland, and without taking into consideration existing incum brances, I should think it nothing less than substituting an Agrarian law for the present existing law of real property. One Hon. Gentleman opposite has pressed this resolution on rather novel grounds, viz., that of teaching the Irish people to eat. I will venture to say that if we can find them with the means of procuring food we may leave unassisted nature to prompt them as to the way to eat it.—( Laughter.) The Hon. Baronet concluded by saying that he trusted, as a Commission had been appointed at a great public expense, and had been in existence now two years, and that he had reason to believe they had collected sufficient facts to enable the House to form a judgment upon the subject, and that, as be thought, to affirm a proposition under such circumstances would be treating the subject with a degree of unbecoming levity, that the Hon. Gentleman opposite would not press his resolution to a division.—( ljear.) After a few words from Mr. FINN and Mr. WYSE, Mr. O'BRIEN said that, after the agreeable turn the dis cussion had taken, and the tone adopted by the Right Hon. Baronet, he thought he should prejudice the cause he was desirous of promoting if he were to persevere. He should 'gladly see the whole subject in the hands of the Government, and should, with great pleasure, act upon the suggestion thrown out, more particularly as he was given to understand that the evidence of the Commissioners would be laid on the table of the House. The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn. QUEEN ANNE'S BOUNTY. Mr. D. W. HARVEY was willing to postpone the discus sion on his motion for a Committee to inquire into the reve nues and appropriation of Queen Anne's Bounty, as it would probably be more convenient after another report had been laid upon the table similar to that presented that day from the Ecclesiastical Commission ; but he was desirous of knowing how speedily a second report might be expected, and whether they would in any way relate to the subject of Queen Anne's Bounty ? Sir R. PEEL said that it was quite true that in the course of the evening such a report had been piesented from the Ec clesiastical Commissioners, which referred to matters of con siderable importance, and that there would be a second ; but whether or not there would be more he could not take upon himself to say. Other matters were bow6ver to be proceeded in, and among others the subject of Queen Anne's Bounty would be included.. He thought, therefore, the Hon. Gen tleman would act wisely to postpone his motion until be was in possession of the information upon that subject. Mr. D. :VV. HARVEY withdrew his motion accordingly until the 28th of April, and as he had, on that day given no tice for a motion to inquire into the Pension List, on which' occasion he had intended to move a call of the House, but which he had been given to understand might be inconvenient to Hon. Members, who might not have returned from the country, he should postpone that motion, and the call until the 7th of May. CATHOLIC MARRIAGES. Mr. LYNCH moved for leave to bring in a " Bill to re peal so much of the Act 19 Geo. IL, c. 13 (Irish), as annuls and makes void all marriages celebrated by any Popish Priest. between Protestant and Catholic." Colonel PER CE VAL was aware that it might be consi dered an ungracious act to interpose a strong dissent on the first reading of this Bill, to which he had expressed his disap probation on more occasions than one. He could not consent to give the Roman Catholic Clergymen a privilege not pos sessed by Clergymen of the Church of England. To adopt the provisions of this Bill, would be to issue letters of marque, authorising a Roman Catholic Clergyman to go into a family, having had no publication of bans, nor having obtained a license, to celebrate a marrige without moral or legal respon sibility. He trusted that the day was not far distant when all the laws relating to marriage would be consolidated ; but these piecemeal measures, this system of gaining one bit this session and another bit another, he could not but severely reprehend. 'Sir. J. CAMPBELL would be delighted to see a measure brought in, embracing England, Scotland, and Irelpd, a law uniform for those who belonged to the Establishment, and for those who-dissented from it; but until such a law was brought in the present he thought a step in advance. All over Europe, as had been alluded to the other night, according to the Canon Law, the contract of marriage could be - performed without the intervention of the Priest,•and he should like such a law here. Mr. GOULB URN thought if Hon. Members were to for bear any further discussion, and postpone it, as it had been understood, it would be not only an accommodation to those who were not prepared, but an act of fairness to the Hon. Gentleman who proposed the Bill. After some further conversation between Mr. C. Fergusson, Mr. Goulburn, and Mr. Lynch, the Bill was read a first time. Mr. G OULBURN declared that his consent to this step was not to be considered as an assent to the principle of the measure. Mr. O'LOGHLEN postponed until Thursday, the 26th inst., his motion for leave to bring in a Bill for " the appoint ment of convenient places for the holding of Assizes in Ire land." Mr. SHE IL postponed his motion " for return of anfrules respecting Orange Societies made by the Provost and Senior Fellows of Trinity College, Dublin, and of any means taken for the purpose of suppressing such societies in Trinity Col lege ;" and moved " for copies of the addresses of the Orange Brotherhood Club, and of the Orange Stradbally Lodge, and of the answers thereto ;" which was agreed to. Colonel VERNER, in the absence of Lord Viscount Man deville, obtained leave to postpone his motion "for the chief constable's report of the outrages which were perpetrated at the Armagh races in October last ; the dying declaration. of a man named M'Whinney ; the committals of the persons charged with the assaults on the M'Whinneys ; the various bail bonds, with their several dates, and amount of bail ; the date of M‘Whinney's arrest, and the cause ; copy (if any) of the recog nizance entered into by M‘Whinney previous to admitting the offenders to bail ; copies of any declarations or depositions taken by Mr. Jones, the Stipendiary Magistrate, of men wounded by musket-shots about that time; the numbers, names, and re ligious belief of all men wounded by musket-shots, or other wise, at or about that time ; copy of the reports from the Sti pendiary Magistrate, and of the reply to the Right Hon. Se cretary for Ireland respecting the Portreeve of Charlemont ; a list of the Magistrates summoned by the Lord Lieutenant to the county of Armagh, at the investigation held in the town of Armagh, in February last." The Hon. Member then moved " for a copy of the report of the investigation at Portadown into the conduct of chief constable of police Brennan, in April last, and the result." Mr. G 0 UL BURN had no objection to give the answers as well as the addresses, provided he knew where to find them.— (Laughter.)—Motion agreed to. MISSION TO PERSIA. Mr. HUME moved for a return of the estimate of the ex pense to be incurred by the East India Company and the Bri tish Government for the diplomatic mission to Persia; also an THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, MARCH 20, 1835. estimate of the contingent expenses of the mission. He then, stated that when these returns were laid before the House, it MRS his intention to question the propriety of the course adopted by the British Government with respect to the subject. Mr. .C. FE RGUSSON said that the existence not alone of the British rule in India, but also of the peace of Europe, de pended upon the obstacle which it opposed to the policy of Russia in the Court of Persia. The only question which eould arise on the subject of the mission in his opinion was whether it was sufficiently provided for by the 20,0001.; which he understood was apportioned for it. He thought ,that sum insufficient, and he therefore implored his Majesty's Govern ment to increase it, if it were deemed in the slightest degree necessary. He had much pleasure in stating that through the admirable conduct of the individual at the head of the mission, the English interest, heretofore little consulted at the Persian Court, was now paramount even to that of Russia; that by his mediation the present Khan was firmly established on the throne of his father, and that through / the means of this mission the power of Russia was likely to be greatly checked, if not paralyzed, in that important quarter. Mr. HUME said that one of the objects which he had in, view in moving kr these papers was to question the policy and principle of supplanting the former residents at that Court, British officers long resident in the East, by individuals who had - never been in that quarter during their lives. Mr. SHE IL said that Mr. Ellice, the head of the mission, had been a long while in India, and the East generally, and filled various important stations there, He approved of the selection because he thought that the questions to be dealt with were rather of a civil than a military nature. Motion agreed to. MALT. Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of quarteis of Malt used in distillation in each kingdom, in each year, from the 10th of October, 1832, to the 10th of October, 1834. Also a return of the total quarters of Malt made, and total duty charged thereon, in each kingdom, in the year ending the 10th of October, 1834. Colonel SIBTHORP said—The Hon. Member for Mid dlesex was the almauack as well as the omnibus of the House —( Laughter)—for he bad no less than eighteen motions for returns on the list of the night, many of which were of a very extensive character. He hoped the Hon. Member's consti tuents would find no fault with his mode of economizing the public, time and public money.—( Laughter.) As the question alluded to Malt he (Colonel Sibthorp) should read two let ters to the House which he had received that morning from two practical agriculturists—one paying 3,0001. a year rent—on the subject. The first began, "My dear Colonel," and con gratulated the Hon. and Gallant Member on his vote with the majority, expressing the belief of the writer that the Govern ment look the right course with reference to that tax. The second was to the same general effect ;, but it alio added that the Marquis of Chandos's speech was "great nonsense, and all fudge."—(Much laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Mem ber concluded by.congratulating the House on the division it had come, to on the subject of the Malt tax, and expressing a hope that the Hon. Member for Middlesex would not oppose the return he meant to move for, especially as he had eighteen motions of his own on the paper.—( Laughter. ) Mr. HUME said that the Hon. and Gallant Member was in one respect like Jack Falstaff—(laughter)—for he had ime tamorphosed his ()Mr. Hume's) .seven motions into cighteen. He had only seven altogether.—( Laughter.) Two of these seven motions were designed to prove that the Malt Tax might be repealed without adding a single shilling, to the burd;ns of the country. The Gallant Colonel had, he believed, pledged himself to his constituents on the Malt . Tax ; therefore he thought as lie lived in a glass house he should not throw stones. . Colonel SIBTH ORP denied having given any pledge in his life. Motion agreed to. Mr. HUME then moved for an account of the Advertise. ment Duty, assessed monthly on each paper in Ireland, from January 5, 1834, to January 5, 1835, of the sums paid monthly by each paper, and of the total arrears due on each paper for Advertisement Duty on January 5, 1835 ; for a return of the name of each stamp distributor in Ireland, the balance of cash acknowledged in their weekly and quarterly accounts, the balance in their hands on inspection since July, the amount of their receipts, and the amount of their salaries and emolu ments for the same year ; for an account of the establishment of the Excise of the United Kingdom on the sth of January, 1831, so as to exhibit the particulars of the whole expendi_ ture of 1,212,1611. charged for it in that year, together with an account of the reductions and alterations in the department by which it was reduced in 1833 to 1,078,6021. ; and for h re turn of the salary, fees, and emoluments of the Master of the Faculties, Principal and Deputy Registrars, and Vicar:•General in Doctors' Commons, from the Ist of January, 1834, to the Ist of January, 1835, together with the date and nature Of the appointments of the Principal and Deputy Registrars, and their duties.—All of which were agreed to. Mr. HUME then moved for a return of the gross amount of taxes repealed in 1833 and 1834. (TITHES (IRELAND). Mr. GOULBURN, in the absence of his Hon. and Gat: lant Friend Sir H. Hardinge, moved that so much of his Majesty's Speech as related to the adjustment of tithes in Ire land should be taken into consideration on the sitting of the House to-morrow (this day). --- Mr. HUME inquired whether the plan of Reform in the Irish Church would be entered into at the same time ?. Mr. GOULBURN replied in the affirmative. The sub ject would take precedence of all other public business, and be brought on as soon after five o'clock as possible. EMIGRATION TO NORTH AMERICA. • Mr. GL AD STONE moved for leave to bring in a Bill ko repeal the Act of 9 Geo. IV., chap. 21, for regulating the carriage of passengers in merchant vessels to the Continent and islands of North America, and t- make further provisiim for regulating the same. The Bill he proposed-to introduce asserted no new principle, and merely modified 'the provisions of the one to be repealed by it. The quettion involved' was one of no small importance to the community. In 1831 the number of emigrants from this country to the Canadas and the Islands was 51,000. He needed not, therefore, impress upon the House that anything which affected the comforts of such a yearly average number was worthy of its attention, especially when it was borne in mind that- they were of the poorest condition in the community. In 1828, when the Emi gration Bill was before the House, it was notorious that the Honourable Member for Middlesex, along with other Ho nourable Members, had opposed it ; he trusted, however, that the beneficial results which had arisen from the measure would have the effect of disarming all opposition to the amendment, which was the purpose of his (Mr. Gladstone's) Bill. The provisions of his Bill were comparatively few, and he would give a brief outline of them to die House. In' the first instance, it was found that under the present system the emigrants, during the voyage, and on their-Arrival, were sub jected to a variety -of restrictions and expenses, which, as they generally possessed but small means, were, in most cases, destructive to their future prospects. This was one of the' abuses which his Bill proposed to remedy. The next pro vision of the Bill would make it compulsory on owners an& masters of vessels to retain emigrants; •at their 4ption, forty eight hours on board after their arrival. The reason of this provision was to be found in the expense and inconvenience which these poor people experienced on being thrust out like' the beasts of the field into a strange place without lodging or shelter. It was, therefore, most desirable that they should have the privilege of remaining on board the vessel for a pe riod after their arrival, and this period he thought should in no case be less than forty-eight hours. The third provision of the Bill proposed to alter the rates of passengers, permit ted in proportion to the tonnage of a- vessel. By the exist. ent Act, for every five tons register a vessel was permitted to carry four passengers; and for every four tons, three. The' Bill he proposed to introduce would only give three passen gers for every five tons, a number the result of a medium struck between the extreme terms of opposite statements. A ship registered 300 tons was, by the law as it now stood, em powered to carry 225 passengers ; the Bill proposed to limit the number to 208, that being the mean .between the num bers suggested by Mr. Bonham, our Consul in America, and the London Shipowners' Society. The Bill next proposed to increase the quantity of provisions. Vessels were compelled to carry from fifty pounds of bread per man to seventy pounds.. It also proposed to prohibit all wines and spirits, except for medicinal purposes, to the sailors on board these vessels. He then proposed that every ship carrying over one hundred pas sengers should be provided with a surgeon, and that every craft carrying under that number should be provided with a medi cine chest. Next, that the master should be responsible for the contracts entered into with emigrants by the accredited agents of owners, for the reason that much misery had re cently resulted from a non-fulfilment of these contracts by ' agents in some of the outposts. It was but • justice to these poor people that the owners should be responsible for the acts of their agents, and the master would be the indivi dual most accessible in a foreign country, or even at home. It finally proposed to make the penalties inflicted by the Bill re coverable by summary process before two magistrates in this country, or any of his Majesty's colonies., These were the main features of the Bill, and he hoped the House would per mit hint to bring it in. He should not refer to any documents of which he possessed an abundance, to prove the necessity of ttp t ho h ote e sailAt m i aoc e mnt a s o(; u ui r bBn e ut2 , t 843 a rp t o usri t pn h oc e see r t e oh t fe u r dp n i as s spsroi disproving vgi t n h og e f as )f he t lebshould shouldemigrationrepme a a llr s nee s d u l ey,mafeochr allude i t t hy ee would meet with no op e the arguments then generally adduced against all. legislative interference with the subject : 1828 1829 1830 In 1833 and 1834 there was rather a diminution, - but 'that was entirely attributable to the, improved state of the country. These numbers proved that the liaising of the Act had not decreased, as it was asserted it would, emigration from this country ; but, on the contrary, materially increased it. Mr. HUME said that it was true he had opposed the Bill of 1828, because he believed that all minute legislative inter ference on such subjects were vicious as well as unneces;ary, He thought that there were three duties which it was impera tive upon the Government to perform. The first was to see that the vessels carrying emigrants were trust-worthy, and not what was commonly called coffin ships; the second was to see that the emigrants were protected from imposition by fair con tracts with those that conveyed them ; and the third was to take care that the vessels had on board adequate provisions to the length of the voyage and to the number ofpassengers. i Mr. BARING thought that interferenee 'n such matters was,not desirable except where, from peculiar circumstances, it became indispensable. The principle.of the grievances to be remedied by legislation was the disproportion between the number of passengers and the space of accommodation. Last year seventeen vessels had been wrecked, and seven hundred lives of emigrants had been sacrificed, and the accidents had almost all arisen from improvidence and mismanagement. He thought it the duty of the House to interfere in behalf of those that were so helpless. He knew ,that. it was the habit of the captains of these ships to keep a gin shop'on board, so that if I the ship were not-lost by accident arising from intoxication, prop - e'rty of the emigrants was sure to be exhausted before they. arrived at the place of destination. The Right Hon. Member proceeded to describe the wretched state of the Irish emigrants who embarked in these vessels, and concluded by saying that the better way would be to bring in the Bill, and to let the House consider its provisions. Mr. RUTHVEN warmly protested against the descrip tion which the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade had given of the wretched condition of the Irish emigrants. Lord SANDON defended the Right Hon. Gentleman op . posite from the unwarrantable attack of the Hon. Member for Dublin. Sir. R. BATE SON corroborated the statement made by the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade as to the condition of the Irish emigrants, and on the part of the poor of Ireland he returned most corcial thanks to the Hon. Meth ber for introducing the Bill. Mr. P. STEWART thought that the Bill would be use ful in all its branches. He thought the sea-worthiness of the ships ought to be ascertained by Government officers on their responsibility. Mr. BARNARD concurred with the observation of the Hon. Member who had just sat down. Mr. E WART wished that Government could make some arrangement for the reception of the emigrants when they ar • rived at the place of destination. After a few observations from Mr. O'DWYER leave was given to bring in the Bill. PLACES OF WORSHIP IN SCOTLAND. .Mr. WALLACE moved for a return of the number of places of public worship in Scotland distinguishing those of the Established Church from those belonging to Dissenters. POST-OFFICE CHARGES. Mr. HUME complained that, notwithstanding a Bill that had been introduced in the last Parliament to facilitate the transmission of newspapers to and from our colonial settle ments free of postage, there were charges still made at the Post-office for newspapers arriving by vessels from the Cape of Good Hope and other colonies, although from Canada and other settlements they were delivered free. Now he thought that all our colonies should be on the same footing in this re spect. He also compl a i ne d th a t M em b ers o f th a t House were charged postage for all the letters delivered to them on Mon day over the number of fifteen, although amongst those were the letters that arrived on Sunday, there being no delivery on the Sabbath. Now he considered it very hard that, in conse quence of a Post-office regulation, not to have any delivery of letters on a Sunday, Members should be put to the expense of postage for all letters arriving to them in London on that day, but not delivered until Monday. There was a strange anomaly, too, as regarded this matter, because, although a Member could not receive his Sunday letters in London until Monday, and without paying for them, if he chanced to be at Bath, or any other country town, he might not only receive his letters there on the Sunday, but receive them free of post age. The Act of Parliament distinctly stated that Members shall receive their letters daily, and he could not, therefore, see; i why they should be charged for the letters of Sunday any more than those of any other day, although they might be de livered on the Monday. Sir T. FREMANTLE said that he should be happy to give his best assistance to remedy the cause of complaint set forth by the Hon. Member as respected the transmission of newspapers to and from the colonies. The Hon. Member would admit that the Post Office was not to blame, for the Act of Parliament was imperative, and must be strictly adhered to; and whatever might have been intended by the Legislature the Act still sanctioned the charge made. If a Bill should be introduced to remedy the evil, he should give it his best attention. With regard to the non-delivery of letters on Sunday, he did not see that the Hon. Member had much rea son to complain of the anomaly to which he had alluded, be cause although he might receive hiS letters on Sunday, and free of postage, at a country town, he would be charged there for his Tuesday's letters if they exceeded fifteen, for the rea son that no letters were despatched on Sunday. So that it came to the same thing, there being no country delivery on the Monday. All these matters, however, would, no doubt, come under the consideration of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Post Office Department, and the Honour able Member had better state his complaint to those commis sioners. Mr. HUME said that he had no opportunity of laying his complaint before the Commissioners. Sir T. FREMANTLE said that if the Hon. Alember would call at the Treasury; an opportunity should be afforded him of doing so. An lion. MEMBER suggested the propriety of transfer ring the Post Office packet establishment from Falmouth to Portsmouth. Mr. WALLACE said that the post-office regulations were on a most niggardly system. It never was any wish of his that letters should be delivered on the Sunday ; but he had personal reason to charge Sir F. Freeling with the most gross partiality in the charge of postage for letters, and he could call on the Hon. and Learned Member for the Univer sity of Dublin (Mr. Shaw) to confirm what he said. He happened to see that Hon. and Learned Gentleman one Mon day in the library of the House, having before him a huge heap of letters, thirty-two in number, and on his (Mr. Wallace) observing that he must have a pretty sum of money to be paid that day for extra letters, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman told him that he had all the posage remitted to him by Sir Francis Feeling, while on that very day he (Mr. W.) was obliged to pay for every letter he received over fifteen. The Hon. and Learned Member also observed at the same time that the law entitled Members to receive all their regular num ber of Sunday as well as Monday letters free. Now this he (Mr. Wallace) looked upon as a gross partiality. It was also a matter of complaint and great inconvenience that on Sunday there was only one place, namely, the general post office, open to receive letters ; so that servants and others were obliged to be sent with letters to the post-office instead of going to church. It had been said by the Duke of Richmon, when at the head of the post-office, the clerks of the department were too religiously disposed to do any business on Sunday ; but it appeared by the report that there were a number of persons employed all Sunday at the post-office in sorting let ters and other business. It was also a most absurd regulation that no letter could be put into the post-offica after seven o'clock in the evening. Mr. SHAW said that he did not deny the accuracy of what had been stated by the Hon. Member as to what passed in the library respecting the receipt of all his letters postage free on the Monday, but he did mean to deny that there was any favouritism whatever towards him on the part of Sir F. Free ling. He had certainly said then, and he said the same now, that the Sunday letters ought not to be charged, and the com munication he had with Sir F. Freeling on the subject was strictly formal. Personally he did not know Sir F. F:Teling, never, he believed, having seen him in his life. His commu nication was to the effect that as the Sunday letters were put into the post-office on the Friday, as appeared by the post mark, they ought not to be charged to Members any more than the letters of any other day, and upon this representation the postage was remitted. He must, however, entirely acquit Sir F. Freeling of the slightest favouritism in doing so. Mr. WALLACE. in explanation, said that he ton had called the attention of the post-office to the Friday post-mark on the letters for which he was charged, but the postage was not remitted. He must again charge _ Sir F. Freeling with gross partiality, favouritism, and injustice towards him. Dr. B 0 WRING asked a question as to the circulation of newspapers in the colonies. Sir T. FREMANTLE said he would inquire into it. Mr. BARING gavexotice that on Tuesday next he should move certain resolutions on which to found a Bill for regulat ing the trade in corn between this country and the Isle of,Man, and the other channel islands. Mr. HUME inquired if the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to lay on the table any information on which to found his re solutions or his Bill. Mr. BARING said that as the Hon. Member seemed' to think this necessary, he should lay on the table the report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the state of the corn trade. He should also on Tuesday move some resolutions respecting the timber trade, with a view to obviate the round about voyage from the Baltic. An HON. MEMBER having put some questions on the scbject of the timber trade, Mr. BARING said that on Tuesday he should state his views fully upon the subject. Mr. GLADSTONE brought in his 13i11 on the subject of Emigration. In answer to a question from Mr. HUME, Mr. BARING said, that if he had had any report in any shape on the subject of this Bill it should have been laid upon 'the table. Mr. HUME said that he thought the report from the Con sul at New York was important. Mr. PRAED brought up copies of letters and reports con nected with affairs of India. M.. HUME said that he should expect a regular India Budget now every year, so as to have an account of the finan cial state of that country. Perhaps the Hon. Gentleman op posite ( Mr. Praed)could tell what the Board of Controul in tended to do in this respect. If he got no satisfactory answer he should bring the subject under the consideration of the House Mr. PR AED said that he thought the Hon. Member could scarcely have expected an answer from him to such a question. Adjourned at a Quarter to Eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, M4Rcir 19. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at a few minutes past five o'clock. GAOLS. The Duke of RICHMOND gave notice of his intention to move for certain papers relating to the state of the gaols throughout this country, with a view to appoint a Select Com mittee to inquire into their present arrangements. BOROUGH OF STOKE-POGES. The Duke of WELLINGTON moved for copies of the correspondence between the Commissioners of the Poor Laws, and the borough of Stoke-Poges. UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD. The Noble Duke also laid on the table certain papers re lating to the University of Oxford. ESTABLISHED CHURCH. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented the House with a copy of the report made by the Commissioners on the Esta blished Church in this country.—The report was laid on the table. CANADA. Lord BROUGHAM then rose and said, in pursuance of a notice he had given yesterday, he should briefly state to their Lordships the subject matter of this peti tion. The petitioners were a very considerable majority of the Legislative Assembly in the province of Canada. That province, as their Lordships were well awaae, had been in any thing but s a satisfactory state for a number of years. There had been great dissatisfaction, he would not say maladminis tration, but certainly a greater misfortune could not happen to any country, than that the majority of its Representatives . . should disagree with the measures proposed by the Ministers Who governed the mother country.. It was almost the only colony which, during a lone. course of years, had been stead fastly attached to the mother country. It was remarkable for great loyalty during all times ; by that term he meant its devo tion to the parent State. The majority of the disaffected now, however, was very considerable, and it was necessary to remind the House they were divided in the proportion of seventy eight over ten. At all events there was at this time, to use the language of this country, a direct colli s i on b etween t h e Upper and the Lower Houses of Assembly. This was a great misfortune. He did not wish to blame either one party or the other, but it required their Lordships' immediate attention. A great number of Bills had been sent by the Lower to the Upper House, and rejected there. In one instance, no less than twenty-seven Bills had been in fact rejected —at least foUrteen or fifteen had been rejected, and the others so muti lated, that the Lower House would not receive them back again. During the last ten years, no less than one hundred and sixty-seven Bills had been treated in that way. The object of many of those Bills was most wholesome. One was to obtain a better security from the Receiver- General. It had been brought forward in consequence of the state having lost no less a sum than 600,000 dollars by the course he had thought proper to pursue. That bill the Higher House had thought proper to reject, and they had translated the object of it from the office of Re ceiver-General to that of a member of the Legislative Council. Another bill was the census of the population ; another was to secure the vacating of seats by members of the Assembly upon re ceiving offices. Another was for the relief of the Dissenters, and for preventing soldiers from interfering at elections. There were also numberless hills for promoting education in the Colonies. All these bills, most important in their objects, the Higher House of Assembly had thought proper to reject. One Bill he apprehended they had rejected, from the example of his Noble Friend on the Woolsack, viz., the Bill for establishing Local Courts; another Bill was for the better securing the independence of the Judges. He trusted this subject would have the greatest attention of his Majesty's Ministers, as he understood one of the Judges of that country held two civil appointments independent of his Judgeship. He ( Lord Brougham) begged to remind the House that the petition came from the great bady of the House of Commons of Canada, who had the power of im peaching the Judges. It was worthy the consideration of their Lordships. The petitioners complained of the conduct of the Governor with whom there appeared to be a perpetual internal war ; the petitioners charged the Governor with seizing hold of the revenue of the country, and refusing, when there was a great alarm at the ravages of the cholera, and when from ] ,000 to 1,300 people died of it, to advance a sum to erect an hospital, though the Governor knew that such a sum would be repaid, since advances made on previous occasions were honestly re funded. There was another complaint against the Governor for having, after several persons had been killed by the troops in the elections of 1832, shown too great haste in tendering to those troops a vote of thanks. Perhaps the Governor was right, and the troops had done their duty ; but the majority of Parliament thought that they ought not to have received a vote of thanks on the part of the Government. There was also a complaint against him for refusing to issue certain writs, through which there was not a sufficient number of Members returned. Those were some of the different charges—mind, he did not say that they were all well founded, for he knew some of them were not—made by these respectable and powerful petitioners. They prayed for redress of grievances ; they complained of oppression and of the vices of their system of Government. The petition at any rate showed the lament able state of differences between the two branches of the Legis lature, and it showed in what estimation the Executive Govern ment was held by the people of the country. In praying for re lief they considered that some change ought to take place in their Constitution ; that there ought to be a better management of the public funds ; better security for their interest generally, and a reform in the Legislative Council. He would say that a remedy might be found in some Parliamentary reform, and he thought the sooner a household suffrage was given to them the better. His opinion respecting colonies was that they ought not to be established or kept up at any great expense of money—that they ought to be abandoned unless they could contrive to go on smoothly, and defray the fair proportion of the expenses of the military and naval establishments they entailed on the mother country. The Earl of RIPON said that not having the smallest idea that the important petition which the Noble, and Learned Lord had commented on would be presented that evening— (Lord Brougham—l gave notice of it yesterday evening) —he had no opportunity of calling to his recollection the cir cumstances alluded to in it, and the grievances of which it complained. He was not even in the House at the com mencement of the Noble and Learned Lord's comment on the petition, so that he could not be fully aware of all that was said. But it appeared that the Noble and Learned Lord had applied something of censure to the Government under which ne acted, and one of whom fee Noble and Learned Lord was.—( No, no, from Lord Brougham.) If the Noble and Learned Lord knew as much of the petition as he ' did, the Noble and Learned Lord would see that it did not refer to any acts of his ( Lord Ripon) during the time that the Noble and Learned Lord was one of his colleagues. He con sidered that the Noble and Learned Lord ought not to have passed censure on him particularly when no intimation was given to him (Lord Ripon). The present petition embodied ninety-two resolutions, agreed to last year by the House of Assembly of Lower Canada. Anything more unfair, anything more unjust, anything more contrary to truth, he would say never was affirmed by any body of men than the allegations contained in those resolutions.—( Hear.) When 4 lie looked to what took place in the other House of Parliament when he saw that those ninety-two resolutions were referred to a Select Committee of the House of Commons—when he saw that the Noble Friend who succeeded him proposed that Committee, and how anxious he was to hear all the details of those per sons who presented a similar petition to the present one— when he knew that they received the fullest consideration— when he reflected on every part of his conduct, and on that of his successor—he was astonished that any blame could be attributed to, them. Besides, when the report of that Committee was made, it was not thought necessary to bring forward the evidence on which it was founded. Since the evidence was not produced he knew not how the charges could be rebutted, and their Lordships must really feel that it would be too much to go through again the numerous and heavy charges contained in the petition. But he would ven ture to say that there was not a single complaint or grievance in the petition which he (Lord Ripon), during the time he last held office, did not write to the Governor of Canada about, and which he did not endeavour to redress.—( Hear, hear.) It was neither his fault, nor that of the Governor or Legislative Council, that his measures failed of success, and if ever they should go into settling the question of finance, no settlement of it would ever be obtained from that body from whom the petition came, and whose charges seem to meet the concur rence of his Noble and Learned Lord. Much had been said about the independence of the Judges, as if the question was not liked by the Government, and as if he had not pressed the Governor to call the attention of the Legislature to their inde pendence. There were two sorts of independence of the - Judggs —the one independence of the Crown, the other independence of the people ; and his object was to render them in the proper degree independent of both. 'Well, a Bill was passed for this purpose, and what did the Legislative Aiiernbly do ? They tacked on a fresh clause, directly at variance with the prin ciples recommended, and provided that the Judges should be paid not out of the funds of the country, but out of the funds of the Crown, over which they had no control. He did not dis tinctly recollect whether the Governor gave his assent to the Bill ; but if the Governor did give his contingent assent, he (Lord Ripon), as his Majesty's Secretary of State, advised his -Majesty not to give his Royal assent to it. Lord BROUGHAM—The petitioners complained that the Legislative Council threw it out. The Earl of RIPON—Yes, they were so charged, but they were obliged to do so, and to this point be had paid the greatest attention. When he looked to all the items of the petition he could not help saying,•that they contained the most unfounded and unjust charges. Lard BROUGHAM—My Noble Friend complains that I gave him no notice respecting the presentation of this petition; but I did give notice of it last night. I read the petition care fully, and I really could not see that it contained any charges against my Noble Friend. His name is not mentioned in it, nor is that of the mother country. The charges are all against the system. The question is, are we, or are we not to retain our privileges with respect to presenting petitions.? Must we keep them in our hands—not open them, nor say a word about them ? I said over and over again—l repeated in a way to weary your Lordships—that I did not know anything as to the truth of the statements of the petition. Indeed, I said that I knew some of them to be false. Upon my own faith I asserted nothing. I said nothing on my own credit and responsibility:__. The 'Earl of RIPON—It is true the petition does not refer personally to me, but it does to serious transactions that have happened under my government. With respect to the inter ference of the military at elections, they ought to be punished if they interfere improperly. The transactions alluded to was an unfortunate one ; but I inquired into the circumstances, and examined the evidence on the Coroner's Inquest, and having done so. I considered myself justified in conveying to the troops his Majesty's approbation of their conduct. Nothing has since occurred--no evidence has come out to cast any slur or impute any misconduct to the persons engaged in this unfor tunate transaction. Lord BR OUG HAM—I said, in alluding to that transac tion, that for aught I knew the troops .were. justified, and upon that point I did not say a word against the Government. The Earl of ABE RDDEN was ready to admit that the people of the provinces of the Canadas were not without some just grounds of complaint.—( Hear.) Whilst he made this ad mission he was also bound to add that the Government of this country for many years had invariably shewn it s w illi ngness to relieve the well-founded grievances of the inhabitants of Ca nada. They sent last year ninety-two resolutions, embodying their grievances, to that and to the other House of Parliament of this country, and those same grievances were enforced by the present petition. He would always meet those grievances in the same spirit. If, instead of being ninety-two they were 900, he would meet them in the same spirit.—( Hear: ) lie would meet them not only in th e s pi r i t o f j us ti ce , bit in that of conciliation and kindness ; and if anything should be omitted by petitioners that would be for the good of the pra vince he would be happy to support it, and propose measures to carry it into effect.----( Cheers.) Therefore, towards the people of Cannda no one could have a better feeling than he had.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord, it must be confessed on all hands, had adopted a most extra ordinary course. The petition the Noble and Learned Lord presented was not a petition having the least refe rence to the subjects detailed to their Lordships, and there fore it could contain nothing that referred to the Noble Earl (the Earl of Ripon) on the cross benches. The petition was directed against the Noble and Learned Lord himself, and against his colleagues, for their conduct since last July. (Loud Cheers.) The petition was framed in December nd L last, ea r whenned Lord still s till petitioners retained supposed p o s s c e a c t i (Loud cries of " Hear.") He did not know whether the e tition was addressed to him as Lord Chancellor, or whethero it was since the Noble and Learned Lord took his seat o . the Bench opposite that the duty of presenting it was. e . , n , otlitthetl;\44 trusted to him.--( Hear, hear.) If the petition had found the Noble and Learned Lord in the occupation of his former se a t on the Woolsack—though even the Noble and Learned Ltoed would have considered it his duty to present the petition toeb% House, he felt strongly inclined to think that then the N 1 , and Learned Lord would have presented it without any 0 ' ooelt ka. those accompanying comments they had heard' that evenint.'; (Loud cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord stated 0 1 one of the grievances the petition contained —only one -had was embodied in the ninety-two resolutions--one which,,h n o been submitted to Parliament last year, and on which practical measure .had been adopted by the late Government to prevent the complaints of the petitioners. It was only the respect to the Legislative Council they complained. Ne w ne , petitioners must complain that their former petition was . 1 . glected, for this last p e titi on wa s drawn up in Decei l l t p i r io last, when the petition ers cou ld no t as yet have known °!. on dissolution of the late Cabinet.—" Hear, hear.) The Pe tit o i therefore must have b een directed against the Noble s and Learned Lord and his colleagues, complaibing of his been their neglecting the petitioners' grievances, which bad no submitted to a Committee of the House of Commons, and e a measure granted or offered relative to them.—(Hear'directed hear.) The petition contained another complaint, ed against the North American Land Company. The Noble.io Learned Lord stated that the petitioners complained of GOvernor having illegally seized on the revenues of the coupe try. Now, how did this occur ? Through the conduct of Legislative Assembly, who deprived every officer under Li°i verement of his appointment by refusing to assent to the , tis t ic e egis e a tbst appropriatien of the rcvenne. By this act of the L Assembly the whole province was thrown into such a stet _ 'Would t ars ac the Government could no longer be carried on. believed that no 11l cer under Government had for two Y it received a single shilling of his appointment ?—( He ar " ) ar• was absolutely necessa r y th a t th e G overnme nt should be y, ried on by some mode or o th er . Wh at was t o be done? ` car , the Noble and Learned Lord and his colleagues advise.- Governor to do—what ?to seize on the revenues of coon. try.—( Loud cheers.) H e d i d no t bl ame the late G 0 ve.'t ment. He passed no cen sure on th e N o bl e Viscount oPPest:e.,t He did not say that his decision was censurable, thong no t might have been a v er y s t rong step, and an interfer ence con only with the Constituti on o f that country but with th e , stitution of this, which th e N o bl e an d Learned Lord !tau i n ' sinuated might happen here some day or other. It vi a9 ,io deniably a strong me asure , b ut h e did not sa y it was le be justified. But whether justifiable or not it was indisln i tion , that the late Government had directed it to be put into executes, Were these then the complaints, were these the griel.ng which the Noble and Learned Lord had urged as Ca bad for redress ? Grievances, which, if they really were see o f been caused and inflamed by the Noble and Learned Lo himself. He must say, th a t if th e N o bl e an d Learne d had bestowed upon th e p e titi on t h at attent i on it deser v and would have been impossibl e f or hi m to h ave s t o od forwr o re held up those acts as grievances and complaints witch int entitled to redress. Th ese o b servat i ons h e ma de only to Pv-bt out the course which the Noble and Learned Lord bad t h l i4 to fit to pursue. If the N o bl e an d L earne d Lord chy — o re make himself 'le that House the organ of the petitioners,lo questionably he might either promote or retard a settleitievin, much to be desired. By the best, by the most patriotic so lives, the Learned Lord must undoubtedly be actuated. 'die could have no wish b u t a sa ti s f actory adjustment of the putes.—( Hear.) ;„ it Lord BROUGHAM did examine the petition, ands found certain charg e s aga i ns t the Governor, and n° ' ba ying against the Governm en t a t h ome, except that e-iste omitted to inquire sufficiently i nto t h e matter. That the sad Government had done all they could do was his ans wer ' the that the present Government had applied themselves °Lord subject as early as possible was the answer of the Ne! ) ., le !e resr opposite (Lord Aberdeen.) N ow t h e c h arges o f the u ha fitig were of the most serious na t ure . H e was accused ~c' basing publicly thanked the t roo p s f or ill ega ll y con d uct i n g theins tine il at the election in 1832, o f h av i ng m i sapp li e d t h e funds d . ste a for the relief of th e c h o l era pat i ents, an d o f h av i n g ne'lliete improper persons to important official situations.A:atlls charges he had, however, stated were made on the credit petitioners. What was the answer of the Noble Lor a ' Ae lst s ' that charges were made not against the present, but `,.„ 11 0,t . Government. There was no charge against the Gov e Cb In a passage remarkable for a strong expressiori k Wh ic " e the designedly suppressed, a charge was made in referene e e t t ieS' revenue. Of that charge he knew nothing, and he of th e larly stated that it was supporte d on l y b y the aut hority petitioners. He m ere l y a dd e d , t h at t h e a ll ege d int,, e n e v edis t , with the reve n u e m i g h t b e per f ect l y r i ght; that age might be enabled t o j ust if y i t ; an d hi s s i ncere h o pe w" thd s he would be so ena bl e d . H e cou l d not have state d points more fully and distinctly than he did in the outs e ,,t o rt , that t h o e n t t e arl m o t f h o N f lU N L ov G .ent ß b A;CT ra E de w s a p s ate u h nd h e a r d sto b o e d en t o p t r ) ;; osetet and if it had arrived before the sailing of the Decemb e j r ` from Canada, the petition might not have been presTo' The Earl of ABERDEEN was astonished at so c ' t be question, \V' hy , h e e ou l l a d te no G t o h v a e v rn e m b e ee n n t, cinondsreaiowusingoiuP. - fsce p sp la a n tc a h tio in n.the contained in this petition. differ' Lord BROUGHAM said that on that despatch 0 13 1 f his ence of opinion p re v a il e d. H e h a d consu l te d sere re ' o is colleagues who read the paper, and th e y h e ld no Ober - than the one he had stated. The petition was then laid upon the table. Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter past Si%. LAUNCII.—Monday evening, a splendid bfi b ltes rigged, was launch e d f rom th e dock-yard of Messrs• t ' c ifor lll6 Co., of Waterford. Sh e i s a sp l en did mo d e l, i n tone Newfoundland trade. e SOP ALARMING FIRE.—The neighbourhood c . 064 Newington, Hackney-road, was yesterday morni i eg n ' o fusl e j; after five o'clock, i n a s t a t e o f t h e utmost a l arm an a ff 11 7,0 in consequence of a fire breaking out in the shoP ; he Oa t le wholesale and re t a il h os i ery esta bli s h ment . From the 'of of the stock on the premises, and the rapidity with flames ascended, in the course of half an hour the o f tbe si ` the building was one sheet of fire. A great nurnh er a i a rte °- o f division of police assembled on the spot‘ when the, n ortO t ha given, but seeing no chance of saving the slightes` r v iag i :o the stock from destruction, they lost no time in ref goods from the adjoininc, houses to a place of safev.flaelWl past six o'clock th ree o f the London Establishmen t ' o e fa ';fit operation Newington, an d W es t o f E ng l an d engines viittiot; operation on the flames ; an d a ft er th e most unre— ni elerm. tions of the firem en , th e p rogress o f t h e d e vourieb 7 : 14 ; 10 was arrested, after entirely consuming two h o uses , A . =ging a third. A report was prevalent that sale e a 0: were lost in the flames, but they all fortunately ese a P t peji the tops of the houses. How the fire originated is e.° 0.0" but the property destroyed (of considerable value) in the Atlas and Protector Fire Offices. • ____ BIRTHS. of f i' On the 17th inst., in Grosve nor - square , th e Countes . t y of a daughter. On the 16th inst., at Orchard House, Northutoberll94 op Hon. Mrs. Coulson, of a son and heir. A P. ' On the 19th inst., the lady of Edward Buller, Ems'' Or daughter. ,• 5 On the 19th inst., in Wilto n - crescen t, th e l a dy of GI fir'- Welby, Esq., M.P., of a d aug ht er . i lady On the 15th inst., at Hull-pl ace , K en t, the . 4 -+ ° OP Henry Wilson, King's Dragoon Guards, of a son. ...,, tbe. On the 17th inst., in. Charles-street,Berkeley-scl w ' .0 1 ' Mrs. Ferguson, of Pitfour, of a son. O. $' On the 16th inst., in Tavistock-squaro, the 154 ° f . 4 )31 PS' Hams, Esq., of a son. , ;„ .of On the 14th inst., the lady o f M r. George AY'W' . of" of a son. it:i i, O. On the 3d inst., at Fl orence , t h e l a d y o f J o hn 0 " - ' o f sir daughter. ism On On the 14th inst., a t C a lk e Abb ey, near Derby , the job. George Crewe, Bart., M.P., o f a d aug h ter. ,_,. /1 f .. a On the 15th inst., i n U pper Gl oucester - p l a ce, the D I 1 a 1" • Searle,of a (lauhter. e lady On the 14th in q st., at Sal g combe House, Devon, t h jo b Peel Cockburn, Esq., of a d aug ht er . „ h ., * ref' On the 14th inst., at the Deanery, Hereford, ' of a son, who survived only a few hours. ..rille MARRIED. wore , ir'' On the 19th inst., at All Souls' Church. Mary - bell c) " . A k Garen, Esq., of Gordon- square , t o Mi ss J a ne Came l ' 01 ,s tor pole-street. -mare! On the 19th inst., at St. George's, Hanover- 01 '110;w% . daughter Gilbertsonb ertson of,, l E :r s a q n . c , is of ß H ra o m b ab ert :E pl s a g ce , , 0 f E ß at e o ig n ra -so vn u e ar eciii e foo s ur t ir resoo rir ifte .IlarO Pearce,yn, thEe onlys qldB. daughter oh i n i t i e s or t f. of, Brice at rsiet eeßplphueennahrasTm.eh, Thornton, q u io. 7 n - ii ,o , Ef 53q1.0,n oic, fh 333 4 ger ej .11 ( House. 00 1 151 On the Ist of November, at Jubulpoor, Mailabfi l % Cit e t , Ommanney, Esq., of the Hon. East India ComPaSY - e laiiP t i niti C vice, son of Sir Francis Ommanney, to Louisa •r',.' a Coin Lieutenant-Colonel Costley', of the Hon. East Jou' ' Native Infantry, Bengal. titi Joh O n n K th e e m l p 7 e t , h E in sg st . . , , in in h t e h r e 9o N t e h w y Kent-road, DIED. al On the 13th inst., in Kemp-town, - Brighton , Esq. f A. 13I ser t On the 16th inst., Elizabeth the wife °- j. " • sAnn, Wapping. 1 On the 11th inst., in Devonshire-street, Portland-Plo,s ed let Taylor Ottley, Esq., of Caius College, Cambridge, 41 ' e iffr, son of William Young Ottley, Esq. SO ;O ff On the 17th inst., in his 6th year, Alfred; th ird 131 0 ° - -it' Robert Bradfield Sand Sanders, solicitor, az - ' ' bia we square, and New Inn. ct , re, in ad • On the 15th inst. in in Milton-street, Dorse t-- '4 ua d ir a ' $ ..A0 year, Vincent D'Oliveira, Esq.,the Island of M e icy of of Lisbon. Ge °46 as On the 15th inst.,at Admiral,Hants' Sir• ir Hinton Ell ° Tapps, Bart., in his 83d year. n on th 6, On the 16th inst., in Dover-street, aged ir i n-- •t• B.' _.,, Blio • e i ..4. Harriet, second daughter of the Right,Hon. Lar.„ oo ld, f on se On the 13th inst., in Oxford-s.treet, Elizabeth t" _ 40 1,,,a); On the 2d of November,l II in the 1918" 'nfl b e P P at —encoo en, . id duo o n fo t Alexander Hare, Esq., formerly of Malacca, acid the „ n et Willia l'e 0 v in er d n ia m c m o it m o p f an tl y i; la ß te es S id ir en T t haorßasanStamfaosrdm R an a mAi_'en t ' cian r t a e : l g ic h i t9g ter °l-f of th% , # . to t . ' the o l n sl t a h n e d l o 6 f t Borneo, o i r n n s e t o ; jarrn , Benjamin ' • . „„ § elceer t oO t o ? Standring, of the Minories. • -, t ,„fl bv-- her Lately, near Ledbury ed 35, -Airs. Be u+ - • 11 " in her 16th year, a ct sw - Colonel Drummond, who desgtroyed herself by eu bae /1' It is supposed the deceased committed the rash "I" temporary derangement. T NO, _ A sti • - - . - _-f!-a_-_ , ,---_-.r_ . ~ you ;14 London: Printed and Published by Winn"' d ill '- 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, of Middlesex. Jane, fifth NQ, 112, Stroll t 0 th e kend !t. -l ost 10 414 f k:tpt i i i *°4l ti 4 T e I S Nl t '‘ Bl 1 4 ,474 G E. ex t . /1 / 4 1 4 .01 1 Ne tt uY ti I I Th thi s / 13 • rit e ] trgt h , qe , tst 4 i tf e Car lzt Ira Tea 3;4ca G ~~~