The Sun. — London, England, 1852-02-10 00:00:00

I *n4 authority—the moral power—which it had ter- 131 , 1 1, ; . _ „'~)~) af - th e Pee rile prioel ,, ie of Llicaflty oitet-1 h as given up for e ver . N o one cou ld n o w fo r t h e f u t u re take his stand upon our inttitunens as in any respect nixed and final in their character. The Noble Lord con aliered that their institution,: should be consf.:liriy in a S tate of transition—con:zatitly expanding. There wa , , therefore no principle of stability left in their constitution. . 4 :he det a il s o f t h e present measure e ff ectua ll y d es t r oyed ttle character of stabiliy, and next year they might all be c h anged , or, at all' events - but a few years, might el apse without an entire modification of them. What Would be the natural effect of all this change and un certaintY? Either they would soon render the state a r°,.Plete democratic republic, or, what was more pro tau", they would render that House what it showed " I ,erY indication of becoming—an assembly utterly un . Sole to carry out those purposes for which it was insti tuted,At the close of every session the constant come Valet was that nothing had been done. That was in That of the great infusion of the popular element. hat evil would be ai arated by the change now pro toiled. To our old Con gg stnudon he had a strong attach ment —for the able and successful administration of tee affairs of the cone try which had been effected under it, and for the practical liberty enjoyed under it—and he flow rendered the Noble Lord responsible for what was likely before long to betal that ancient Constitution, Shaken as it already was. It was possible that, in the ()°ll rse of years, the people of England might be at last tired out—that liberty might exist no longer—that some other form of government might be substituted, and such a consummation be attained in England as had been already attained in a neighbouring country, and by O. somewhat similar process. He would not offer any °PPoaition to bringing in the Bill. Mr, H. BERKELEY thought the measure of the Noble Lord ought to be affirmed. He considered it a great improvement, and that there was something mere in it than that infinitesimal dose of reform which had been promised in a well-known political organ. John still would find there something more than that; but he wished the Noble Lord, in turning his attention to the extension of the franchise, had provided a measure of Protection to the voters at the poll. The country would ' he much disappointed at that omission; but he (Mr. Berkeley) would endeavour, when the rseesure was Under discussion, to give the voter that protection w hich Was so necessary, and which the minify so ur gently demanded. Mr. P. HOWARD differed from the Hon. Baronet ° PPesite (Sir J. Walsh) as to the light in which the P r oposed measure should be viewed. The country would • Pleased with it, for the announcement of the extension of the franchise had been received with exultation. ; S ir R. H. INGLIS said that this was one of the most 413 Portant questions which could be submitted for debate, Yet the four Gentlemen who had spoken since the Noble Lord had i ntro d uce d the question, and had all taken dif eutgroundewould appear from the silence of the House . to have r epresented only their own opinions. The last cc easiec of the kind in which the Hon. Member for Radnor shire (Sir J. Walsh) had called to remembrance was stro ng in his mind. The occasion of 1 852 was very different from that of 1832, when the subject was first ett lthi a wurought forward. On the latter occasion every place the House and in the passage was crowded with loge listeners to the discussion. At the present time, the at the benches when the Noble L trd introduced L subject, they were certainly tolerably well filled ; i v a as soon as he had sat down the House relapsed into tion difference, and the attention of Members was propor tionably ditninished. Bat the Noble Lord had intro ,,yo two or three questions not necessarily connected Leh reform, but of vital importance to the interests of few co untry—(llear)—upon which he wished to say a sp,„„„ W orde. The Noble Lord hud introduced in his f or t . "'" two or three objects which should form the matter abtseParate legislatioc, and which he would have better mou4liata u tain ed from introducing ; but his ( Sir R. Inglis's) objection was with respect to the great eel;- ;it 8 question, which was unconnected with Perna- Crlitttry.reform, and not merely to the removal of elud ed, particular words whieh bad leith'erto ex expieu, and had been intentionally devised to ;1 11 de—or, at all events, the practice had the rarest suction which could be binding upors teem body of our fellow-subjects, as some called .. 113 ; but he regarded them as strangers who held ereed et . eed distinct, alien, hostile, and inconsistent with our trod , and whom the Noble Lord now proposed to in de ice by that very side-wind which he bad himself Precated on a f ormer occas i on . The Noble Lerd stat e d when he introduced his great measure of 1831, pie i t was not a measure of revolution. They, on the par t B ide, contended that it was, in all its subtantial N; e lls, a measure directly revolutionary. A very few o e s had:hardly elapsed when a Noble Colleague of the "9le Lord's declared in so many words the measure of ro om n o , , Was a measure of revolution, stating it as such, ye ttut disapprove of it, but to justify it by its result, etch he declared to have been unmixed prosperity. to l the Noble Lord had said that the country was not ltirsh e t_ tried by a revolution every year; and had the pt " r re Lord given the country any hope that another ex pada:Pit would not be made in 1872 or within a shorter theiroff The unprescriptible character of the institutions they hadunwritten constitution had been destroyed,, and constit ll °w to deal with a charter °aro.* —a written and tilted"' to be found in a few books on the table, would nroat W " no security that the Noble Lord himself ea t : be the first to introduce a change in its pro ,;?°rls. As to universal suffrage, be did not think it as SO much to. be dreaded by the possessors of T he and p ro p erty as had been h i therto suppose d. larg es t exper i ment which had been made with I "Peet to i co _ t had occurred recently in a neighbouring untry, and they had seen that it was Be security to 40 arty or property, and that it was the most efficient in strument for conferring the largest amount of power tt' bl eb modern E uro p e h a d seen concentrate d i n the u t. ,tt o ds of on e man . Th ere was no security t h a t th ose -4 s upported his (Sir R. Inglis' s ) N o ble Friend on this , !101l would not bring f orwar d ot h er measures of a stilt larger nature. He (Sir R. Inglis) therefore pro `°l:l against this constant tinkering of the Constitution, it b y deserved far more respect. than had been shown 3 7 his Noble Friend.—(Hear.) There was another ath nt— en point to whi c h h e (Si r R. Inglis) was almost 41i peed to refer, after adverting to such a minor subject qrn't be had just alluded to—namely, the religious uestion,he by which' the Noble Lord proposed to admit te t 3 t who differed in religion from the bulk of the na ateuto, and who were almost alien in other respects, to a 0. at in Parliament. This he (Sir R. Inglis) most de• i n id . h el 9 objected and should oppose by every means Portent Power. After such a subject as that—one so im• d it ttint as well as so sacred—he was almost ashamed to ti" .. e t elad to so comparatively low a subject as the pro eit'Y qualification proposed to be abolished by his e t ° °le Friend. But this point was one of those de roeeratic el emen t s w hich his Noble Friend wa s so n d of encouraging in this Bill. The result of is ad ltdv °PtiOn wo u l d b e to throw o p en the House to an y e nturer—of whom there were too many always •e a d (si r 3 - --by separating power from property. To this he t 0 jt. Inglis) would not willingly agree. With respect thee minor points of the proposed measure he should 0 14 then dwell upon them, as there would be so 'teeny l i 3 P e rtunities of discussing them in their details; he a ° tad not, therefore, longer occupy the House on that reitsion. But he was unwilling, when his Noble Friend ti B l 4l introduced a measure, and so extensive in its nature, at : it should b e p erm itted to pass even through its first Re without one voice, at least, being raised against th e religion& portion of the proposition, which he would aver w„ most offensive to the great bulk of the people Of Engl an d , and which therefore he trusted Parliament stould not suffer to stand on the Bill of his Noble Friend. e knew t h ere were those, supporters of his Noble Friend, wh o w i s h ed to abolish all oa ths whatsoever; but n nless some instance, a •modern, could be ncient or ad duced in which civaiwct society existed without any re ference to a higher autho • and elicit truth, he could sanction obligations would consent to the abolitionil"counsel, and for one never country of that form of words which constituted this Parliament the Christian assembly Y a Christian country, and People.—(Hear.) of a Christian bir. BRIGHT said be had been ende urine to weigh the u various portions of the Noble Lore ° •-••-•" to admit that Froposition, and ete was bound in fairness expected, there were "elute there were S otlie of which be entirely disapproved, and which tell Sty far short of what the country other , Portions which would give some degree o f „ ta faction Portions to those outside the House. It was difficult to - atY hew much good it would do—not s p eakin g in the direction of the 'lon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh), b ut in respect to those who desired the extension of the trait. ~- " `‘et but as it would be all over the country to-mor ;;°_,w, he thou ht it quite fair for those who differed con while they had Z ie rahly item the lion. B 'twee) views, "7 ° oPportunity, to make some remarks on the speeches he °` those who differed from the eountry also. The great and democratic which might go to t. the portion and hp. P r oposition, was the 51. franchise for boroughs, d a greed with the Noble Lord, that the classes to a which the franchise was to be given were perfectly competent s he did not mean every man of them, for that was not tr ue even of the present franchise—but taking them as a tt whole, to discharge its duties, and in thee portion of the kingdom in which those classes were the most numerous they might with perfect propriety and confidence be entrusted with it.—(Hear.) He now saw them periorming the duties of voting in their pa r that with great and undeniable propriety. He saw ' B 't Whomever they elected in the poor-law unions x t3,llded th e p oor - rates properly and honestly, en d th a t en these c l asses elected municipal corporations in u towns and citi es th ose bodies showed no destructive pro 4:laity, but were about as respectable and trustworthy citizen bodies that could be elected by any other class of' f o tizen s in the country—(Hear, hear) —and he took it h a t t r anted that they had precisely the same interest in tt ln g the good government of the country, and in the 2servation of order, as any one else, be his property t 'nat i t might. Therefore, though many might be re turned for t h e boroughs who woul d not be the wisest e !' in the countr who there were many returned from t he counti es now who were known not to be Solons— (A.1„ gh)—still they would just he as good as before. , t '.e z il t ere Was one serious defect in the Bill with regard to the bel c he of the borough franchise which he ceuld have -ated t th e 0 see removed. It had been charged against v... "'lase that many o f i ts M em b ers came there through t;i'tes. forced upon th e e l ectors; hat he had never said at landowners were more inclined to force those ere a• ri e on th e i r ortCB any Property to vote against their con tl than other cl ass o f th e community. In the era parts of the kingdom , in Yorkshire and Lan "lire, there were P e rsons each, a large firma l o • from 500 to 5,000 om p , prig would be electors ander the Portion of whom were men woo are were besides a g and chit- Z t en, but the wages :lilt Bill of the Noble Lord. number of women ~a , "° llBe , aad the head of that ••-te must say, then, as a lame were taken to somebody's te house would have a ve he . W o r e xtremely sorry the Nubian'ploy Il ia hands or out of the h fief labour, that Lord not taken he hands of any one similarly SUN s;.tuatel the power to exeroi.se a most coercive hM) and them. i.ll it p-n,itiofi a,Ci Si 0• J to ,xe!..3: gradieg to toe nature of elector and to his dition, and which would be hurtful to ;'he con.stitutic:a of the House a-.id of the Country.—(Hear, hear.) The man who was force(i to vote wss about its much degraded as the man who wee bribed to vote: he lo:it his self-respect, arid by being tempted to de.ifEnd the vote which he had beau cotnptilled to give there was a gr o win l , depravity brought about of his moral feelings. He (Mr. Bright) said that the Nubie Lord was bound to give the ballot— (Hear)-.-if there was any considerable extension of the franchise. He would not go into the question of_ the ballot in any long argument. His mind was so entirely made up on it, both as regarded moral and political grounds, that he hoped when the motion for the adop-• (ion of the ballot was brought forward by the Hon. Member (Mr. Berke-1 -y), and when it was discussed with more attention than it had hitherto received, they would be able to show that it was due to th' employer of labour s 4 well as to the employed that a clause enacting . the ballot should be added to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) The of xt point on which he wished to observe was lowering the county franchise from 501. to 201... Ho thought the-Noble Lord would admit there was no argu ment iu favour of a 201, franchise which did not apply with equal force to a franchise Of 101—(Hear, hear.) The 101. franchise had been carried in that House ho less than twice by the Hon. Member (Mr. L. King); and that alone was a reason why they should look very closely into the-present proposal. He asked Hon. Gen tlemen opposite, was there any reason why they should give a vote to a man occupying a 51. house in a street in Manchester or Birmingham and refuse it to a man living in the country in a house of 181, or 191 a year?—(Hear hear.) A men, perhaps retired from business, might: have a must comfortar.ile house in the country with a rent under 201. a year, and yet he was to be debarred from the franchise. Now, he presumed there would be a proposition made to substitute a lower franchise, and he hoped the House would adopt it for consistt,ncy and justice sake, if no argument could be shown against it. How the Noble Lord could excuse himself fur proposing such a tranobise, when last year he pro p.)sEd an 81 franchise for Irish c ,unties, which the House of Lords raised to 121., he (fir. Bright) could not understand. No one could object to the Noble Lord's proposd to admit to the franchise every one who paid 403. unuually in direct taxes; but he hoped it, was not proposed as any great measure. The direct taxes were not so many that many would be admitted under them in addition t , ) those wno were otherwise quaiißed; and he believed it would have no perceptibleetfee: in in creasing the number of voters. The Noble Lord bad refused to distranchise any boroughs—he did not speak of Sudbury and St. Albans, but of the small boroughs —but proposed to lessen what was called family in fluence in such constituencies by adding neighbouring towns to them. It was impossible to deny that if the franchise was lowered from 10/. to 51.. and the neigh- pouring . small towns were added, the censtituencies would be increased, and in some cases family influence might be destroyed. Therefore, if it was a question between showing such a state of things to remain and accepting this measure, he allowed the change would be some gain, but be could not agree with the principle on which it tsas grounded. The Noble Lord had spoke of maintaining tee balance of partif 5. [Lord J. Russ ,11—No.] Wf-11, the . balance of power, perhaps the balance of interests; but if he ac cepted the principle of representations at all, he should nut seek to have the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) at one extreme, and hire (Mr. Bright), as it might be con sidered, perhaps, at the other, but that the proportion of opinion in the House should assimilate to the proportion of opinion in the country, and not that as when the question of free trade was settled long ago—(lronical cheers and laughter)—and when, he would not say 9 out of 10, but certainly 3 out of 4of the people of this country, had long disposed of the question, Hon. Gen tlemen opposite should muster votes that pearl} equalled the votes on that side, of the Houss.—(Hear, and laughter.) Why had he mentioned this but to prove that free trade had no adequate representation in the House, and that the opposite opinions had a far larger representation than they. would have been entitled to had the representation been fairly apportioned over the country? Ile supposed the Noble Lord would maintain what he called the balance of interests, but he would find it was not the balance of interests, but the dead lock, under which his Government would be unable to march.—(hear, heals) If Hoe. Gentlemen opposite were to cones into power to-morrow they would be precisely in the same difficulty; and so long as opinion was in greeter progression out of doors than in the House of Cotrmens, so long Government would be in the position in which it then was—namely, that they would wish to do that e hich the House of Commons would not allow them to de, and which the people insisted on having done.—(teer, hear.) If they were to go out, and tefon. Gentlemen opposite were to come in, they would find themselves in the very same position, and they would soon be sent to the place from whence they came.—(A laugh.) He had expected the Noble Lord was going to make some pregress with re spect to the smaller boroughs having each two represen tatives, and he hoped the question was net yet settled adversely to his (11r. Bright's) views. He would just quote the cases of Harwich and Thetford. The Noble Lord might find country towns or villages to give them larger constituencies, but was it consistent with the opinions he had exprefsed that eight and during his whole political lite to enlarge Harwich and Thetford, and to allow them two members, while etch of the metropolitan boroughs and the constituency of 25,000 that ho represented had but each two Members also? Was it possible an arrangement like that could be per manent? No, of course not; and next session the question to transfer one of the Members from some of these boroughs would be moved with a torte of argu ment which he defied any Minister to meet with any thing like satisfaction to his own mind and reason, and in the same way ho would be met with the question of the 20!. franchise and the vote by ballot. If be believed with the Hon. Baronet there was hazard in introducing much more of the democratical element into the House; and if with such views he was intrusted by the Queen to make a proposition, he would take away such a glaring detect as this from those who would hereafter advocate change. The Noble Lord had not told them what he intended to do with these small boroughs, and he (Mr. Bright) submitted it was his bounden duty to withdraw from all these boroughs, which re quired an addition to make up the constituency, one Member, and to give that Member in each case to large constituencies, or to large towns not now represented. The Noble Lord had touched on the question of oaths,. at which the Hon. Baronet, on the other side had taken great offence. He (Mr. Bright) spoke disinterestedly on that subject; because he was not obliged to take en oath himself, the House admitting, is the ease of those cir cumstanced like him, a simple declaration; but he was bound to say that he believed such a declaration would be quite as binding on the conscience of any Hon. Mem ber as an oath; and he thought that Parliament should show the world that the gentlemen who met in that House regarded their word as tantamount for all pur poses of perpetual obligation as much as most statesmen did tan oath. The French revolution of 1848 bad, upon a retrospect of the past sixty years, abolished all oaths except that taken by one person; and they now found to their cost that his was the only obligation that had been broken and disregarded. With regard to the ge neral question he (Mr. Bright) regretted that the Noble Lord had left so many questions unsettled; but he ad mitted that the measure proposed an extension of poli tical rights, and he believed that the country would be grateful to the Noble Lord fur bringing forward, with out compulsion, a proposition which, if carried, would leave the representation of the country in a far more sa tisfactory condition than it was at present.—(Cheers . ) Mr. BAILLIE Said the Noble Lord and his Govern ment doubtless considered that he had now redeemed the pledge given to his supporters at the close of the las session of Parliament. He (Mr. Baillie) was not, how-. ever, surprised at the speech of the Hon. Member for Manchester. In fact he should have been surprised if those with whom reform was an article of political faith did not experience some disappointment at so imperfect a measure being substituted us a satisfactory solution ot the question of reform, by so old and experienced a Ile former as the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Baillie) was not one of those who held reform as an article of his political faith, or who, in fact, believed reform to be necessary; but the necessity had been de cided by her Majesty's Government and the first Minis ter of the Crown bad, in the last, session of Parliament, declar e d it desirable to increase the power of the demo cracy of this country. A Minister making such a de claration, however, calculated as it was to excite great th,b t l o e expectationu and ' aro u s e great masses of the people , should h ave tisf,, been prepared wine a measure more likely to give sa • etiereto those who, under those circumstances, coul d ofn f•ft besaid Noble great body beunjustly ' discontented. Was the measure of Lord calcul ate d to g ive staisfaction to the n he would . point B ailee) majott,tahined that it was no t, an d to that end the Reformers of this country? lie (Mr. would prevent it fraocrialtinsuring the confidence of all sin ceresome radical defects which the statement of the 41 N a o i t g : re d, and that it was desirable Reformers. for the sake of argument, , Lord last session was tier thetherefore to increase the power of the democracy of it was not a flit le remarkable that the first mea sure to secure that object was and most obvious his Hill —altogether ignored_onzeither omitted from duration of Parliaments. It was generallyyshortn the I the increase of the duration of Parliam ent admittedtha t had been u tb 1 heaviest blo w ever inflicted on d emocracy in this e try, inasmuch as it made the Members tree, and remit tedcon the prospe ct of being called to account by their con stituents to too remote a eroded to influence their con duct. It was well known that Hon. Members held a dif ferent course at the commencement of a Parliament from that which they held towards its close; and if proof were lone, it was wincing, furnished by the N oble L ord himself. The Noble Lord represented a large and liberal consti tuency. For the first tour year`, h o wever, of the present i Parliament, though the Hon. Menair.r for Montrose an nually brought ter ward the qu estion of Parliamentary i 'refin es , on • fire:dyes-nay, obsti nately —opposed every occasion was newly —oppos e d by the Noble Lord and the members PI of hi* Government. The Noble Lord entered into no compromise with the Hon. Member on those occasions; but on the contrary, did rot spare his sarcasms upon him and the party who supported him. Such was the position of the Noble Lord with respect to the question of reform until the middle of the last session of Parlia ment, when that which the eloquence and ability of the Hoe. Member for Montrose poled not effect was accom plished by the near approach of the period of dissolution; and at the close of tee session accordingly the House was surprised to hear that the Noble Lord and his Ca binet had been unanimously converted to reform. — (Hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord was, however, much mistaken if he believed the present measure would give satisfaction, un l ess it was accompabied with a eLuse to shorten the duration of Parliaments. The next question was one of great importance —one which the Noble Lord did not even pretend to ignore* It . was the LONDON, question of small boroughs. The evil W " admitted by . vourable to a large extension of the Suffrage should make , :7e ~ ,1 , ~- '- , , ,• • - t \T It T ' i'' '''''''' " t .1. " N ''' .l -' r.iirrl d'r ) ti.,t their election be - tween the Noble Lord's pl an an d their own. ,•, was not a c tupromise that was proposed to them, bat ~ i • ';- r -:- - 1 , ,,, , i:. , 3 tra.svi , c. , o' Lun'l n - It a . n no instalment that was offered. And thr Noble Lord die in il;eti ',li ;:ea ' r:'2;h r s ' wo.i acimitted to be a ti;gia,e ' e i:, the ti tiv pointed to the time when it might be in the power of p, 3 st-tn of Parlut:oen ., ..,ry reprcsente.tion. Toe Re ' the Mini:Act . to propose and of the Parliament to agree to a forna Act of isn2 prof, , ,ed to cx;.inguish the 1 ) measure of further reform. The measure now brought for rotten;ward was not reposed as a final measure, but as the only borongh system, bat it f , iled to accom plish that ot , j'c'. A line was drawn by which a great mea sure that the circumstances of the coun t r y and of the number of these small horruiglas hlti boon retained, hour wa , rantel the Noble Lord in hoping and the country had by this means the seaucial— approbation of Parliament. In agreeing to the present Bill, for it was nothing else—of a great number of Members there was nothing, therefore, to preclude its supporters from of Parliament being nominated by Peers, There was riving their votes hereafter l to a scheme for triennial Par the borough of Marlborough, the &ember of which was ilaments and household suffrage. . The ballot was necessary nominated by the Marquis of Ailesbury ; the borough of Malice, byEerl 'Fifiestifiem ;' the borough of Rich -Mond,would receive the to protect the voter against intimidation, whether exercised -Iry customers over shopkeepers or by meddling Roman Ca b the Earl o Zeiland •, the borough of Ripon; by Earl do Grey ; the borough of Tavistock, by the Duke ofw - e (mkt ee exopose diolie priee's "over _members of- the' - ti T . d measure. It was also properly proposed-to undo the compro conglemeration of small boroughs in Ireland - was • a wise Beriferd—(No, DO—the borough of Caine, by the M:ar - mice into which the House entered with the House of Lords via or Tavistock. There were many ot h er b oroug hs l as t y ea r, and by which the fra nc hi se for Irish boroughs WAS nominated in the same way, hut he would not go through fixed at 8/. The Noble Lord's plan,however, was defective as with them. It was quite 'obvious that there could be no regarded the counties of Ireland. At present those counties , proper Reform Bill unless it was one that dealt with possessed no more b e e n a . fair l number of voters, but when the ' this question. The Noble Lard bad dealt with it in a small to d w t n o shou lds the boroughs,vit t r i c l irawn from the counties and ag- very imperfect manner. By joining two or three toes -6 gr o e tfl a d te be reduced one-half, anedetTstituencies in many counties fiber as proposed, you would throw power into the hands w of proprietors, inwhose thrown more than ever into the families the representation hands of a few persons, and some such practice as oc- was _vested and transmitted as a heritage from father to ourred in Scotl a nd wou ld soon take place in those son . Of that part of the Bill w hi ch related not so much to new boroughs, by the parties agreeing alternately to Parliamentary reform as to the great question of religious make the r e t urn . Th e on l y way of dealing with the liberty he cordially approved. On the whole, the Bill was question was by abolishing these boroughs altogether. entitled to the support of the friends of Parliamentary re lthe great question in whic the people of Ireland and form, and he was glad . to see th a t t h e members of the Scotland were deeply interested, was to whom the power country party were disposed to remember the eld conditions of was to be transferred. In the Reform Bill of 1832, Scot- • that party, and to vie with the Noble Lord in the race of land and Ireland were unfairly treated. Scotland , with reform. Mr. TRELAWNY rose and begged 3,000 000 population, had. only 61 members, and Ireland nression which he had to withdraw an ex with 6,000,000, had 105 representatives; while Eng- Hon. Member for Inverness-shire. inadvertently used with respect . to the laud, with not more than a three times larger popula- Sir J. TYRELL observed, that the friends of reform lion, had five times the number of representatives. The seemed to find it very difficult to define the principle of the people of Scotland ire well able to appreciate the ad- proposed Bill. New, he ventured to suggest that if it were vantages they enjoyed under the British constitution : entitled "a Bill for the, continuance of he r M a j esty ' s pre and they had not asked the House to make any change sent Ministers in office," it would not be a bad definition of in the representation. They felt it was easier to pull its object at least.—(Hear, and laughter.) If one might up with evils they had than" to fly to others they knew judge by the declarations of those who called themselves the not of." But when the Prime Minister, with the sane- friends of reform, the meastirewasnert likely t o g i ve gener al tion of the Crown, brought in a new Reform Bill, and satisfactio n . The Hon. Member for Bolton denounced it in and tote, whilst the Hon. Learned Membe f took the responsibility on himself, the Scotch would be r he or Youghal lb Ras dissatisfied because it did not substitute t wanting in duty to themselves did they not demand a more for the confession-box. As far as he could form an opinion equitable distribution of the power of Government cud of the measure from the Noble Lord's statement, it appeared. toe representative system. He was satisfied the people to be rather a milk and water affair. As regarded Essex, in of Scotland would be unanimous on this point. Soot- which Harwich was situated, the Bill was a very harmless land was united in feeling and interests; and few though measure indeed. Still, if the measure lt was not likely to give they were comparatively in that House, they had often satisfaction to the country gen t era ae y, a he e should feel himself succeeded in arresting the hand of the Minister, and they at liberty to oppose it. het forward V a ' S veone knew,the Noble Lord had brought . would do the same on this occasion. The people of Ire- then, canvassingmeasurein order to keep himself in office, and doubting its sue justice;land also would come forward with a demand fur equal cess at the close of his speech he endeavoured to ingratiate and, if they did so, he should not despair of mak himlielf with the Manchester school on the subject of educe ing their united voices heard and respected on this question, by the way of throwing out one anchor to windward in lion.. He would ask the English Members to look at the event of the Government being displaced. the position iu which they would be placed if a Prime Colonel SIBTHORP claimed credit for having sugges t e d Minister was always to have a little Reform Bill to the 501. clause, which the Marquis of Chandos subsequently launch before the public in order to create for their own adopted and carried.—(Hear, hear.) He had the honour of purposes 3 popular ferment. The House ought to have a seat in the House when the Noble Lord brought forward to be a a pretended Reform Bill which would enable Govern- the Reform Bill, which was announceder final measure. went to get up an excitement year after year; they must Now the Noble Lord proposed anothaußeformtii Bill, on the nave final and fall reform, not a progressive system of principle of " any port in a storm,' d dirtye stress he was reform, If to maintain themselves in office Government driven to was evident from the very for the port_ . in which he had condescended to take refuge for the brief remaining chose to keep.up a system .of agitation, on their heads period of his official existence. The Noble Lord and his g must the consequences that would ensue be solely vi colleagues hadresorted to every species of trick to sited,—(Hear.) themselves in office, but they would soon meet their reward. Mr. ROCHE congratulated the Hon. Gentleman who had Mr. W. 0. STANLEY was understood to express his ap just sat down upon the liberal speech he had made in favour probation of the measure. of reform.—( Hear, hear.) Nobody could doubt the march Mr. DISRAELI_Some doubt, I understand, prevails as of intellect and the progress of opinion when we heard to the time at which the Noble Lord purposes to move the sentiments so liberal coming from that part of the House second reading of the Bill. I was, unfortunately, not in the which used to be called the "Tory camp"—(Hear, and a House when the Noble Lord referred to this subject, but I laugh)—and he confessed be greatly desired to see the mea- understand that the Bill is not ready to be laid upon the sure of reform which was apparently to be brought in by table. It is customary when a statement of importance, Hon. Members sitting on the Opposition benches. The such as that which the Noble Lord has this evening made, people of England and Ireland would, he thought, be greatly is addressed to the House, that the Bill on which it pro satisfied with the success of this debate, as far as regarded f esses to he founded should be laid on the table at the same the speech made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. time-(Hear, hear)—but I understand it is the intention Baillie), whose views went far beyond those of the Noble of the Noble Lord not to bring in the Bill until Wednesday Lord on the subject of reform, and the speech of his Hon. next. Friend the Member for Manchester, showing a qualified Lord J. RUSSELL—I will bring in the Bill on Wednes approval of the Bill. It was quite evident that a Reform day, or, it may be, Thursday. I will then propose that it b e Bill the country must have, because both sides of the read a second time on Friday fortnight. House seemed to consider it necessary; and, notwith- Mr. DI a PAFLI Noble Lord's explanation is not S t , —The standing the shortcomings of the Government Bill, he was satisfactory.—(ilear hear.) It seems to me impossible to glad that, .as. he understood, it was the Noble Lord's inten- consider this question properly until we have the Bill in our tion to extend it, in all its integrity, to Ireland. He had hands. - The Noble Lord's statement was very interesting, n o understood the Noble Lord to say he intended to extend doubt, but, before " definite opinion on the subject ut, efole coming to a this Bill in its integrity to Ireland. Now he agreed it is a necessa 1' 'ar that we should have the Bill with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that a before us. Threytirtureeitmoin be allowed for the consideration great injury was done to Scotland by the present apportion- of the question must of course date f ro m the moment went of the representation, but a greater injustice to Ireland. when the Bill shall be laid on thetable. I think a fortnight,. Nothing could be more monstrous or unjust than the prin- at this period of the session, is not a sufficient time. Sixty ciple upon which the representation of Ireland was settled seven boroughs are to be dealt with, and certain towns are by the Reform Bill. If population alone were taken as the to be connected • h inhabitants of these towns with them. The basis of representation, Ireland, instead of possessing only ought to have an op ortunit f making known their views y o 105 representatives, would have '207. But if the represen- and feelings on the s P ubject. I believe that much more con tation were based upon population and property combined siderable time than the Noble Lord now proposes to grant the number of the representatives for Ireland in that was given when the first Reform Bill was introduced. When House would be 150. The Noble Lord proposed, wherever Sir R. Peel Bill for the repeal of the corn-laws introduced the the number of electors for a borough in England or in 1 , 46, he proposed that more than a fortnight should Scotland fell short of 500, to group other towns with elapse before the second reading, in order to allow the them and to extend the constituency. Would the Noble country to express its opinion on the measu re. T he House Lord apply that principl e to Ireland? If a borough in s h ou ld recollect that not we alone, but the country, should Ireland had less than 600 electors would he join that to be allowed a f u ll an d f a i r oppor t un ity of becoming acquainted other towns? (S evera l H on . M e mbers: " yes, yes; he with thi s i mportant measure. In point of detail the Bill said he would.") There were 24 boroughs in Ireland with for the repeal of the corn-laws can bear no comparison with less than 500 electors, and, omitting Belfast, there was only the measure which the Noble Lord has sketched, but which one borough out of the remaining 23 which had a constitu- he is not prerared to lay on the table of the House. (Hear, ency exceedii;g 500. There were 16 or 17 boroughs where hear.) Even if the Bill were ready to be produced, I think the constituencies numbered less than 200.—(Hear, hear.) e a month should elapse before the proposal of the second In many other boroughs where the constituencies were re- reading. I say again this time is necessary, not for us, but turned as over 200, the actual number of the constituency for the country—for those who are to be affected by the did not exceed 200. He was informed by his Hon. Friend Bill. No measure of this kind ever gave content unless it (Mr. C. Anstey) that the constituency of Youghal, which were accompanied with the power of investigation, and it was returned as 261, dirt not actually exceed 200. When the may be of rejection. It is a most unsual thing for a Mi repeal agitation was rife, and a great desire existed in Ire- ulster to come forward and make a statement of importance, land for a legislative separation between the two countries, introductory of a Bill, without being able to produce the Bill the Irish Members were asked why they did not attend the itself.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") I would object to this House of Commons and state their grievances there? But course of proceeding, even if I assumed that the Bill was when they did, they found themselves unjustly outnumbered. delayed by some mere technicality, and that, after the seven- The present House of Commons was packed against them by teen or twenty-seven Cabinet Councils which have been held, the Reform Bill, and it was useless for them to attend at Ministers have really made up their minds on the question. that time. The same evil still existed. He wished the _(A laugh.) But when we know that Ministers continue Noble Lord would take into consideration the propriety o f to meet daily the case assumes a very diff e rent aspect. The throwing some of the Irish boroughs into the counties. The Bill, when pro d uce d, may be invested with a great many re presentation might be taken from sonee of the boroughs details which the Noble Lord has it not i n hi s power to oom and given to the counties, without altering the balance of municate to us.—(Hear, hear.) If when the Bill is laid conflicting interests in that country. He called upon the upon the table we find in it anything which may not agree Noble Lord (J. Russell) to consider the justice due to Ire- with, or be additional to the statement we have been fa land in the matter of th e representatio n , which had been so voured with to-night, that would be a reason for a longer in forci6lY bro u g ht unde r his notiee by the Hon. Gentleman terval between the first and second reading than the Noble oppo site (Mr. Baillie). Lord proposes. Considering th e importance of the question Mr. ME Wolke ATE wi s h e d t o b e informed when the Noble —considering that the Minister himself has not Lord proposed to take the second reading; because in a Bill made up his mind, apparently, to 'the details •of of such magnitude sufficient time ought to be given for the his own measure, I do not, I think, ask too consideration of the details. He had not risen with the in- , much in demanding a longer time for a consideration. I tention of entering upon th e ge nera l question, but he must think it is much better that we sho u ld h ave a month, and express his regret th at the Noble Lord seemeddetermined that is not a great deal more th an three P ar li a mentary not to add tne sanction of Christianity to his measure. — wee k s , t o enable the country to make itself acquainted with ( Hear, hear.) He regretted that he had added that alien the measure. So far as lam concerned, lam not dispo sed element to his Bill, with th e ti t l e of w hi c h i t h a d no osten- f or discussion on the present occasion. I cannot, however, sible connexion. He would express no opinion at present on h e lp c ongratulating the Parliamentary reformers on the con the first principle of the Hill, which proposed to extend the tent with which they seem to have acceted the measure of franchise by lowering the qualification for counties and bo- the Noble Lord.—(A laugh.) It does appear to me, how roughs • but he had great doubts relati ve t o the novel element ever, that those gentlemen have sh own t h en i a elves satisfied proposed ' to be introduced of a floating constituency, con- with very short commons. —(A laugh.) So far as 1 have nected with no ties of property or residence, and qualified by been able to form an opinion, I • must confess that it does the payment of a certain amount of di rect taxe s. But then appear that the Noble Lord has, on the whole, observed the they found a Jew Eat tacked on to the end of the Noble rule which he has on more than one occasion laid down Lord's measure, for no purpose, as it s e eme d, b u t to conciliate in this House. My impression is, th at t h ere is nothing in the support of that small section of the community and to the scheme, as it has been explained to nig ht, which has a offend the House of Commons.—(Hear.) tendency to disturb , I will not s ay the balance- between the Mr. TRELAWNY thought it unfair in the Hon. Member two great interests of the country, but the adjustment that (Mr. Baillie) to call ,the borough which he (Mr. Trelawny) was made at the time of the Reform Bill of 1832.—(Hear, had the honour to represent (Tavistock) a nomination bo- hear.) Ido not use the word " balance" because I do not rough, and he trusted the Hon. Gentleman would retract think that balance exists ; I thi nk there is a preponderance that assertion.—(A laugh.)a ,The Hon. Member, following in favou r of the town a nd commerci a l c l ass es in the ad the tactics of his leader ("r• Disraeli), who reserved to him - justment as then made; but I do not think, so far as I self the opportunity to outbid the present Government by a can form an opinion from merely listening to the oral further extension of the suffrage, wished to catch the Irish statement of the Minister, that the new project has any Members, by pointing out the greater proportion of English serious tendency to disturb that adjustment ; and therefore as compared with Irish Members; and sought probably on that ground I feel I am considerably re lieved.—(Hear, to defeat the Government by combining two warring ele- hear.) At the same time, I t ell the Hon. Member for merits. He (Mr. Trelawny) only wished to caution the Manchester that I cannot at all agree with his dogma that Liberal party how they suffered ethers, to introduce division the existing adjustment is at all destroyed by boroughs like into their camp. The experience e of other cenntries was Thetford returning two Members and cities like Manchester such as to induce the hope that the institutions of the returning only two Members. Throughout the whole of .the country would not be perilled by the mea sure now Pro - arguments I have heard on this subjeet from Gentlemen op posed• by the Noble Lord s It might hereafter be extended, posits, both here and as reported in other places, a great fal if it were thougat desirable to go any, e further n ,a e nd se he trusted lacy is observable, and pervades all that they bring forward the Liberal party in the House *mu' " ce p"' -Dill as it on the ribject, as I shall be prepared to show at the right stood at present. He repeated that he trusted the Hon. time and on the fitting occasion., The Hon. Gentleman has Member for Inverness-shire would apologize to him and to referred to the case of Thetford and Manchester, and it is the borough he reprssented for his.presumptuous remark.— only beeause he h as ,__ done so that I ' enter upon the sub (A laugh.) He did not know what the Hon. Gentleman ject at all now. 1) . hen the Hon Gentleman refers to the represented—whether his pocket or his brain s; but , if the authority of one who has shown, no doubt, great intelligence latter, he must have a rather narrow constituency. and much industry in giving informati on on many of these Sir JOSHUA WALMSLEY thanked the ]_lon. Member points, and then peoceeds to found upon that informat i on t h e for Inverness-shire for making the proposal he had done fallacy that the-population and .the property of the great with reference to the increese of Scotch and Irish Members. towns ought to be the test as to representation I must take He might contrast this proposal with some observations leave to say that Ido not admit the positi on .—(Hear, hear.) that had fallen from Gentlemen calling themselves Liberal The argument that because a boron h like Thetford re- Members on that side of the Housc_alleary_and he could man two m e mbers the re f ore Manchgester should return not but feel surprised that those Gentlemen should have ex- the number of Members proportionate to its population, pressed themselves in favour of a measure, which, -in his and property, is an inference altogether erroneous. The in opinion, deserved anything but that. He was confident it ference, indeed, is the other way. It is that such places as would not meet with approval out of doors.—(Hear, heat) Thetford should not return two Me h m ee, not that Manches- It was indeed a small measure, and would be regarded bY ter should return more.—(Hear, hear) I . • the country as unworthy of the Noble Lord and his col• a paper which has just been brought hold in my hand Under my notice. It leagues. 'The Noble Lord had referred to some fifty or sixty refers to the case of a g reat northern cou nty, in which there boroughs returning two represen t at ives each, with a sm al ler are large manu facturin g towns — I mean the division of North constituency than 500. Was the Noble Lord aware that 'Cheshire. The population is 217.--- Ona , and there are two there were 627 large towns in this country assessed to the manufacturing towns in the the division, M acelesfield,with a income-tax to the amount of 15,300,0001., which were to- population of 33,000, and too celebrated_Stock ort, with and did he suppose the inhabitants of upwards of 50,003, the two towns together h a • P , tally unrepresented; so under what was tion of 83,000, which, deducted from the having a popula those towns would be satisfied to remain this whole population would be the termed the might find through the two manufacturing towns, with 83 ote . • • case, except such representation as they ~ 0 'inhabitants, re thethe rural persuaded that this turn four Members, while county constituencies. He was ion of 134,000 rights of the return only two Members.—(Hear, hear Bill, .or any other, which did not recognise the tax-paying and in • dustrial classes—the wealth-producingthe figures laid 'n by the Hon.• Huts admitting that asuow Gentleman were satisfaction to the right, they would only prove that places like Thetford and tin in Cheltenham should not have two country. Another most important point was wanting _Members, not that Man thisanomegex- cheater should have more.-- (Hear, hear.) vv• Bill—the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had had some ith regard to in the this second point, as I should feel it my duty perience at various public meetings in this countrytoopose the the Billthought there was any attempt to last few years, and he had never attended any where establish t derance ot any particular part of the he pre ballot had not been unanimously supported.—( ear, hear.) pon ; ;House, I must re- The serve my opinion regarding it till we have employers of labour, as well as the employed, concurred the de • tails before us —Olean hear.) When I see how that any extension of the franchise without the ballot would . the Govern bet propose to deal Kith 60 or 70 boroughs little better than a mockery.—(Hear, heir.) As this was men th boroughs and how ose are,when I see merely the introduction of the Bill, he would not enter into whatthen are to be under the new arrangement, its details, but would reserve any remarks on its anomalies managed my opinion. But'then I shall and inconsistencies for the second reading. The Bill was to- know how to give the arrangements of the I shall sup tally unworthy of that House, totally unworthy of being pose now that d. I shall Government have called a Reform Bill, and totally unworthy of the Noble Lord been made and accomplished. subjects assumewhich b that in 1852, and his colleagues. • after the experience on these creditable the House has Lord J. RUSSELL in 1t•of the Hon acquired, any of those not very Maaceuvres as to rep y to .the ques ion •which Member (Mr. boundaries distinguished Newdegate), said he proposed to take the se- the settlement of the Bill will not very easily the set eond reading on Monday ' • tlement of the first Reform . IT easily occur.— Mr. HERRIES asked se 'might. that t believean in the halide of Members?w hear.) I cannot when the Bill would be printed and (Hear,. . • • - Party in this ll support a Minister in a ny Lord J. RUSSELL —O n w . House, or out of it, tvi hs the object of which • - arrange- Lord J. MANNERS V ' ednesday or Thursday. went of the new boroughs the hear.) is to support enough for the aouht that a fortnight was not long his own party in Parliament. —,Hear knowledgeboth I have that of considerationof a Bill ff ' the increased the House of terests. The House were palled a ecting such vast in confidence in ountry, as to feel that those principle and details of the Bill, upon to sanction the whole Commons and the c sse _., hear.) Whether manoeuvres to give them a longer period than a a npl the Noble Lord ought cannot be repeated.— It althen, I loot: it from the Noble Lord, ' ` J. RUSSELL—I do not attach great ' at the Bill as I collect not 0 1Mosed to where it ap- Lord seght, and have no objection eat Importance to pears to me to have a character existin • the constitu- Mond ay that week (the 27th inst.) to name Friday in tionel arrangement at present g, or whether 1 Mr. M• ng ther. HUE—that all arrangements respecting The sooner the better. assume, whic h I do,conceived and 'es will be in a fair Lord H. VANE could not agree with what had b new constituencies two points grounds "1 saidspirit, I do not find on these . of opposi by the Hon. Member (Sir J. Wahnsley) with regard USthe • hear.) But I reserveto myself the full right tion (flear, shortcomings of th e wile So far as his experience and in- . ' subject is fairly before the House —to consider formation went—not derived, he admitted, from Lancashire —when the dr the circumstances of the case, it was a wise or Yorkshire, but from other parts of the country—he be- whether,h under any measure upon the subject, and, it it lieved that the measure would. be considered extremely an- i weret m to wise thin. g, whether the present measure is one ads tistactory. He did not speak of its details, but of its prin- i utal wis. ted to the case. I confess, so far as I can form i q a e . y . sui I do not feel bound, till the Bill is • l es 'the Noble Lord might have transferred one repre cip • sentative of the small boroughs to some manufacturing' i n m _ y hand, to give any o pinion ; in fact it is not an town; but the arrangement propo sed involved as little in- i opinion but an impression I give—athe Bill snot an terference as possible with hostile influences. - I seem to me to be one of very questionable propriety.— Mr 0. ANSTEY—it was not Proposed that Members fa- . THE TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY lO, 1852. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord has on several occasions dilated on the wisdom of settling great questions in : m eleents of comparative calm and tranquillity. I thi n k, a s a general pri nc i p l e , th a t i s a wise course ; b u t care s h ou ld be team, in sealing with what may require alteration i n the commonwealth, to introdube nothing that is tabulated to excite the passions of great masses of the canrounitv.— ! ( Hear, hear.) It is in the moment of tranquillity, when passions arc not excited and interests are tranquil, that you should come forward and deal with those interests; but s you are bound t o d ea l w i t h t h em i n suc h a manner at w ill not ea r fi. unnecessarily provoke di scuss i on , so th a t th e settlement m a y be will not ha y ) nal, so for that as atislnootana now w m f t o o rta be n used in human affairs—but suc h a one as i s ca l cu l ate d to b e perma nent.—(Hear.opinion, I cannot say that I think the measure brought for ward by the Noble Lord a very statesmanlike measure. The Noble Lord says that the 101. householders aro in a certain sense to be disfranchised, and that we are to have 51. householders on the register. What is the great object of the 51. franchise? -That you should admit the werkiug classes to the exercise of the suffrage. I have always been the advocate of an industrial suffrage; but I am not satin tied that this 51. franchise will act in that way. lam net to be persuaded that there was no measure better fitted for this purpose, no arrangement more apposite and more calculated to complete this end, than merely lowering the rating of the rent on which the suffrage de pends.—(Hear, hear.) I have here a paper moved for some years ago by the Hon. Member for Marylebone, which con tains a list of the boroughs, with their populations and con- ' stituencies, in England. I was anxious to find out the sixty seven boroughs, with which the Noble Lord means to deal in this Bill, and I commenced with the list before me. I began with Caine; went through what I supposed must be the sixty-seven boroughs, assuming from the smallness of the constituencies that those I selected must be the sixty-seven places which the Noble Lord wishes to disturb. Then, having exhausted the sixty-seven boroughs, I proceeded through the list, taking those that, from the number of their constituencies, I presumed must be exempted from the ope ration of the Noble Lord's Bill—those above 500. The first borough I found on the exempted list was St. Albans.— (Laughter.) I only mention this to show that in settling this question we have a great many details to consider. The merit of a measure like the present depends very much on its details, and that is the reason why, when a Minister makes a proposition of this nature, and is not prepared to lay his Bill on the table—a very strange occurrence cer tainly—l think the country have a right to expect that ample time will be given to consider those details. — (Hear, hear.) I have thus expressed what I really feel .on the matter. I feel, so far as the two tests I have referred to go, that I am not prepared on those grounds to oppose the. Bill of the Noble Lord. Upon the greater ground I reserve my opinion. I have great hesitation as to the propriety of introducing this measure at all. I have great doubts whether it is a measure deep enough and compre hensive enough to deal with a question the Minister has himself voluntarily raised.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord ought well to consider that it is of the utmost importance that questions of this kind should be very maturely consi dered before they are decided upon—that it is of the greatest importance that all measures for the adjustment and ar rangement of the suffrage should be of a permanent cha racter. The Noble Lord is the last Minister who ought to doubt the correctness of that principle. I say very frankly to the Noble Lord that I do not think it is to the credit of this country, of this House, or of himself as a statesman, that every year he should alter the franchise of Ireland.— (Hear, and laughter.) I think if the Noble Lord had only pondered on those subjects a little longer he would have hardly been in the singular position of having brought for ward a Reform Bill only twelve months ago for the kingdom of Ireland, and now confessing that that measure is perfectly inadequate to its objects.—(Hear, hear.) I hope it is not ominous of the measure the Noble Lord is now bringing forward. I think it will be just as well if gentlemen on the other side of the House, who exert themselves to the utmost to get a measure brought forward, should thoroughly consider what that measure is. Gentlemen opposite have had experience on this subject. They received with enthusiasm the Bill of 1832. They de nounced everybody who opposed it, and expected that it would in every respect answer the purpose. But they have lived to find out their mistake, and they should so far profit from the past, and receive—l will not say with suspicion, but without passion—the present measure of the Minister. —(Hear, hear.) Let them remember we are at the com mencement of the session, and that we have much to do with other measures.—(Hear, hear.) Let not Government allow Parliamentary Reform to divert their attention from other reforms.—(Hear, hear..) Depend upon it that what ever you give with regard to the extension of the franchise, the great body of the people will not be satisfied if the greater part or the session is occupied with Parliamentary reform.—(Hear, hear.) The people out of doors wish to see the whole question of our colonial government entered into. They wish to see the principles on which our system of taxation is established inquired into. The people out of doors 'have some anxiety to know whether there will be legal reform or not.—(Hear, hear.) These questions will require considerable attention and very laborious amend ment of details, and these are reasons why we should not approach this subject, thrown into our hands so early in the session. We should try to ascertain what the time requires, think carefully whether this change be required by the people, and whether the proposition of the Government is one of that nature that is calculated to satisfy the country when obtained.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. GREY had listened, as he always did, with the deepest attention to the speech , of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and he must confess he was unable to discover whether he was to be numbered among the sup porters or the opponents of the Bill. From some previous observations it might be implied that he would have been very glad if an extension of the suffrage had been submitted by the Government; and now,. when an outline of the pro posed measure had been given by his Noble Friend, he stated that to the principle laid dowel by his Noble Friend he did not see any objection. Then he asked for a month's delay, in order that the minute details of the Bill might be consi dered by the country and the Rouse. Now, the details of the measure were questions eat entially for the Committee— such, for example, as whether cane borough should be joined with another, or not. He hope d, therefore, the House would not consent to the delay proposed by the Honourable Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) ;He agreed with him that other subjects of great importance would come under the attention of Paaliament ; and the way to get them before Parliament would be to home no delay in proceeding with the Bill now before the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said it was a , rery unusual occurrence not to lay a Bill before the House on the night on which leave was given to bring it in; but he believed he was wholly mistaken as to the precedents in this matter. The Right Hon. Gentle man the Member for Stamford naked a question as to the day fixed for the second reading; and his Noble Friend in reply gave a full fortnight, not between the present time and the second reading, but from the ti me when the Bill would be in their hands. Such a period h a did not think at all unrea sonable. The Hon. Gentlem an hinted something about manoeuvres and tricks with reference to the arrangements under the Bill, and founded that suspicion on what he said had notoriously taken place with the Reform Bill of 1832. What the circumstances were Ito which the lien. Gentleman referred he knew not ; but, if any steps were taken by Minis ters that could be called in question, ample opportunities would be given of stating obj ections when they considered the details of the measure. —(,Hear, hear.) 'What he asked was, that if there were objections to the Bill they should be manfully stated by its oppone ats, and that there should be no attempts to defeat the mea lure by postponing it till a late period of the session. —(Hear,. hear.) The Hon. Gentleman seemed to speak as if the extension of the franchise to 5/. would have the effect of disfrt inchising 101. householders. Mr. DISRAELI—I did not: say so. Sir G. GREY understood the Hon. Member to say so, but of course if he disclaimed the statement he would make no remarks upon the subject. T fie Hon. Gentleman referred to St. Albans, and read from an old return, which did not ap ply to the present state of the constituency of that borough. He believed, however, that the present state of the consti tuency of St. Albans fell within the number which his Noble Friend had stated as the point within which he pro posed boroughs to be dealt with.—(Hear, hear.) In conclu sion, he hoped the House would not grant the delay asked for by the lion. Gentleman.--(Hear, hear.) Sir B. HALL said, in previous sessions the Government bad been charged with not bringing forward a measure of reform, and now the Gentlemen opposite came forward and said the Noble Lord was too hasty in his proposal, and was about to cause unnecessary e:scitement among the people. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. lallember for Buckinghamshire called upon the Noble Lord to postpone the Bill for an inde finite time—one of the most in onstrous propositions he ever heard.—(Hear.) As the Right Hon. Gentleman had shown, the material points to be considered were matters of detail, and they would naturally fall, to be considered in Commit tee. The Hon. Gentleman opposite said the Bill ought to have been laid on the table of the House. The Hon. Gen tleman was not a Member of the House when the first Re form Bill was introduced ; but he could tell him that his Noble. Friend was now acting in the same way as he then did. On the 10th of March leave was given to bring in the first Reform Bill, and it was read a first time on the 14th of March.—(Hear.) That was the very course now proposed to be taken. Then, when was it read a second time? It Wise a measure of much greater importance than the pre sent, and yet only seven days after that Bill was brought into the House the Noble Lord moved that it be read a se cond time.—(Hear.) And now, when they had been calling for reform for years, the Hon. Gentleman opposite got up and asked that it should be postponed for a whole month ! —(llear.) The Hon. Gentleman had made use of strong language with reference to the boundaries of boroughs. The Hon. Gentleman talked of manceuvres and proceedings having taken -place in fixing the boundaries in 1.32, but who was the principal party 'to those manoeuvres ? Lord Stanley, of whom the Hon. G netleman was now a follower. That Noble Lord was one of the principal parties concerned in the Reform Bill ; he took a most active part as to the boundaries of the boroughs ; and now the Hon. Gentleman taunted the Noble Lord at the head of the Government with vt having used discreditable manoeuvres h't and proceedings ttho regard to them.—(Hear.) Tf to Hon. Gentleman oug recollect with whom he was associated before he cast such h. reflections upon his Noble Friend.—(Hear, and a laugh.) But when he talked of this not being a full and comprehen sive measure, he (Sir B. Hall) ? greed with him. It was not so in his sense, nor perhaps in that of the lion. Gentleman, . be cause he thought the Hon. Gentleman had bee urn in avo A laugh.) He the ballot and triennial Pariliaments.—( wished those questions had been. introduc ed into it. It would bat he have made it much fuller and more comprehensav ort of the d ou bted whether it would have now had the supp however, Gentleman opposite.—(:"clear.) He must,e Government c ongratulate his Noble Friend at the h eado 1830 and 183 1 on one sign of the times : - that -whereas in f th and he was a Member of the House a t that time — eve r y embered, inched, a stage of the Bill was foughte—he seren in the morning, division of the House at a quarter past ther—now there was Hon and they had 16 or 17 divisions altege G en tlemen opposite to be no division. —( Hear.) n dared not in the face of their constituen ts w hen the Hon. vote a g ainst th is Bill being introduced.—(Hear.) .And with for Gentle man taunted the Liberal Re fer niers d v ote against it b voting ecause this it Bill, did he suppose they "avou l ish ed for? They meant to do did not give them all they w wand take all they could get and nothing of the sort; they would take all they could get amid move amendments and try and get more.—(Hear, hear, and move amendments and with a the' Noble Lord in one respect, laughter.) He agreed that it would be extremely wro ng to continue the very sma ll whichers he had moved for, an d boroughs. Some p a l) be before the House , in a day or which, he believed, wou ld eaaections on that point. Probably two, would illustrate his J teed to the Bill, an d if there would be a sch edule atta in the chedul beginningthere with the were the first boro u g h e and he would letter A should be Arundel,then give Hon. opposite the oppor atnity of Gentlemen moving that that send town should no longer d Members to Parliament. TT Member suggeste that Abingdon (Somewhether it came before Arundel.) We" 'ce I mendh wereAbingdon or Arundel, he would give Hon. —ent emn e same opportunity.—(Hear.) For his own part, he f that the scheme of the Noble Lord, in congregating together towns, would place the coun ty constituencies more in the hands of the landlo r ds, and giv give the landlord s more p o wer over their tenants than at pre sent; and they might rely on it that it would come to that which Earl Grey spoke of in the House of Lords, —they must h a ve the ballot to protect the i?eapje._(Hear.) He thought they ought to have a Reform Bill based on the principle of the former one—of enfranchimement and disfranchisement, and when they had miserable little boroughs like those re ferred to by his Hon. Friend the I.\lecalyT for Inverness, th e y ought to be disfranchised. The llon. Gentleman had taken very good care to show up sortie of the boroughs repre sented b 3 Hon. Ciente:men on his (Sir B. llall's)'Side of the House. Bat were there ware represented by Hon. Gentlemen opposite? Were there not Nyilion, Chris'cturch, Buckingham, Helstone, Huntingdon , and Stamford? He ' tiro:iglu this state of things was disgraceful to the countrN ( Hear, hear)---ard that the first principle of the Ilec;rni Bill ought to be to disfranchise those small boroughs, and then to add protection to the voters. lie could nut quite understand why the county constituencies should be put on a different footing from those of the boroughs—(Hear) —why i n a borough there should be a 10/. franchise and a 21. franchise, and yet in counties there should only be a 20/. franchi se ? Was - it a compliment to the voters in towns, to show they were so much more intelligent and enlightened, that a man who had a property to the extent of a year was qualified to vote, while a farmer who rented property of less than 201. a year was not qualified to vote? But there was a greater anomaly than that. Was the Irish farmer so much more en lightened a character than the English farmer? And why was the former, with a 12/. holding, to have a vote, when the farmer in this country could only have it for a 201. hold ing?—(Hear, hear.) He thought there should be the same qualification in towns as in counties.--(Hear, hear.) It might be said that that would give more influence to the landlords; bur, as he had said before, then give the people the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with any details, but would thank the Noble Lord for bring ing in the Bill, and hoped he would not admit of any delay ; and, when the Hon. Gentleman opposite spoke of the people being anxious for law reform, for an inquiry into the colo nial system and the taxation of the country, he entirely agreed with him, but would suggest whether the best way of shortening the business of the House would not be by making their speeches as short as they could, and then they would have plenty of time to pro ceed with the great questions to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred. After a few words from Lord NEWPORT, which were not heard distinctly in the gallery, Lord D. STUART said that out of doors this measure would not be regarded by the peopl e as suff i ciently full and comprehensive. The boroughmongers—the proprietors of such boroughs as Gatton and Old Sarum —were trembling, lest they should be deprived of that unrighteous power and influence which they had held so long, and which they still exercised for corrupt purposes, and therefore they had come down in large numbers to that House to defend their boroughs.—(Hear, hear.) He could not say that this mea sure would give to the country great satisfaction. It would not come up to the wishes and desires of the people at large. —(Hear.) It certainly did not satisfy him or agree with his notions ; for, in the first place, it was not based on any great principle.—(Hear.) He admitted it would extend the franchise, and so tar would be of benefit, but it was to be an extension only from 101. to 51., drawing an arbitrary line and based upon no principle. The Noble Lord had repu diated the doctrine of the finality of the Reform Bill by bringing in this new measure of reform, and he must have been perfectly conscious that this could not be a final mea sure.—( Hear.) He believed it could only be considered as an instalment. As to the change the Noble Lord proposed to introduce into the constituencies, he thought it would be productive of very small advantage, and would not give the people a true and efficient representation. He feared that those in whose hands the Noble Lord proposed to place the franchise were not likely to be free agents, and that therefore it would only be giving additional power to the landlords. He thought that for a full representation of the people there must be a much larger extension of the fran chise) than the Noble Lord proposed, and that there could be none unless the people were efficiently protected in the ex ercise of their rights.—(Hear, hear.) And in speaking of the rights of the people he could not help noticing an ex pression of the Noble Lord, used by him early in his speech. The Noble Lord said he thought it was time to extend the franchise as a reward to the people. He did not think that was a proper and statesmanlike view of the subject. If it was for the advantage of the country or of its inhabitants that they should have the suffrage they ought to have it for great political reasons; but if it was not for the advantage of the country then it ought to be withheld. The Noble Lord appeared not to he satisfied with the small boroughs as they now existed; but he (Lord D. Stuart) had great doubt of the propriety of the course pursued by the Noble Lord with respect to them. He would warn the House not to suppose, when a borough was either so corrupt or a no minee borough in the hands of some great proprietor, that adding to it some neighbouring town or towns would make it necessarily an open and a free borough. He thought that in some instances the contrary would be the case. He woul refer to one—the borough of Arundel, which he had once the honour of representing. In the Reform Bin it was proposed to add to that borough the neighbouring port cf -Little hampton. The Noble Lord would recollect what had oc curred. A great objection was made to the proposed arrangement by the inhabit ants of Arundel. The proposal was not by any means ono of the discreditable tricks and contrivances alluded to by . the Hon. Member for Bucking hamshire, by which it was attempted to place influence in the hands of the partizans of the Noble Lord at the head (.1 the Government. It. was said that the intention was to con solidate the power of the great proprietor in the neighbour hood—the Duke of Norfolk ; but that proposal was resisted by the inhabitants of Arundel, because they thought it would make Arundel a complete nominee borough in the hands of the Duke, inasmuch as he held very considerable property in the town of Arundel, but had not complete power over it, whilst the whole town of Littlehampton belonged to him, and the borough therefore would have been entirely in his power. He was afraid such things would happen when two or three small towns were taken together, and therefore he could not think that such a plan would have the effect of giving to the people the full and free representation they ought to have. The Noble Lord had omitted to mention one matter which out of doors was considered of great importance—the short ening of the duration of Parliament, a proceeding which was altogether essential to the rendering the representation of the people what it ought to be, by rendering the representa tives earlier responsible to the people. He would repeat that he regarded this measure as far from calculated to satisfy the just expectations of the country. But, inasmuch as it was a step in the right direction, as it destroyed for ever the doctrine of finality, as it recognised that some thing ought to be done for the improvement of the repre sentation, he was ready to accept it as an instalment, with the full purpose in his own mind to obtain still more so soon as practicable• He trusted that the Noble Lord would not listen to the insidious suggestions made to him for delay ing the measure, on the part of men who, had he taken a different course, would themselves have been the first to re proach him with dilatoriness, and with a want of earnestness of purpose—(Hear, hear)—and he trusted, at the same time, that those who supported the Bill would also apply their efforts to make it more practically efficient. Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL would not, on this occa sion, enter into the general character of the measure; but, as an Irish representative and a Roman Catholic, he begged to express his grateful thanks to the Noble Lord for having done away with the present most insulting system of oaths a relief which would be warmly appreciated in Ireland. — (Hear, hear.) He trusted the Noble Lord would carry the new principle beyond the walls of Parliament. He begged to ask the Noble Lord whether there would be a separate Bill for Ireland ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that a separate Bill for Irelaud would be brought forward on Friday. After a few words from Captain HARRIS, Leave was given to bring in the Bill. The House adjourned at Half .past Ten o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 9. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Ealing, Praying for the enfranchisement of copyhold tenure. BRIBERY OATHS. Lord BROUGHAM, seeing his Noble Friend the Presi dent of the Council, whose recent indisposition he greatly lamented, once more in his place, would take the liberty of putting a question to him. The Noble and Learned Lord, who spoke in a tone of voice very indistinctly heard in the gallery, then proceeded to give a summary of the oaths which had recently been proposed by himself and others for the prevention of bribery at elections. They were all in one point or another defective; but much of the evil had been cured by the Evidence Bill, which he had himself introduced into the statute-book ; for now both the sitting Member and the unsuccessful candidate for a seat were both liable to be examined on oath, subject, no doubt, to their refusal to an swer any question which might criminate themselves, and to the consequences criminatory of themselves which might result from their silence. Unquestionably, however, some thing more than the Evidence Bill was wanted to render the law for the prevention of bribery perfect. He, there fore, hoped that her Majesty's Ministers would take the subject under their consideration, as many instances had occurred of late which confirmed rather than created the existence of great bribery at elections. He had a strong notion that a bill might now easily be produced which, with the Evidence Bill, would put a stop to these corrupt Prrte tices. The true course to be taken in order to e l l a ti tu r bribery would be to exact from every Member of P t a , r y h P e im nt . , on his taking his seat, a declaration that he had n u o r b promised self or his agents, directly or indirectly, giyal used or pro money or any other valuable thing to, or h miser! to use any influence to procure a place or pension for, and that he was any voter who had voted at his election, i so ide on his behalf wholly ignorant of any gift or prom wholly dis hy any such person to such voter, a nd that he h b e li e ved that any such thing had b een done on his behalt'; and furthermore to bind himself by a solemn promise not to pay any one thing, or to fulfil any one promise, or to do eha f . payment, he any thinge whatsoever to carry into execution the or the succeerrdd promise, or engagement of h is a g ents in his b same declaration should also be exacted frol e be unsuccess ful candidate at the electi on for the seat, in in ousting the sitting Member. That was a declaration which he thought th at no man wo uld undertake to ° ln In unless he were conv inced that no il legal practices had been committed at his • election. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded without askin g a ny question, if we h eard him correctly. The BLarquis of LANSDOWNE sa i d that it would give him the highest satisfaction it any effectuul remedy could be provided for the corruption now prevalent at elections, for certainly- nothing effectual had yet been done. lie had also high satisfaction in informi ng his Noble and Learned Friend that the subject had already engaged the attention of her Majesty 'k3 Government ; and a notice upon it had either been given already, or would be given that very night, in the other Rouse of Parliament. here was a fixed determina tion on the part of her Majesty's Government to bring these corrupt and demoralizing practices to a speedy end. Lord BROUGHAM had great satisfaction in hearing that a notice of motion on this subject had either been given already or would be given that 'night by her Majesty's Go vename nt. H a d he known of that notice he would no t have Said out word on thi s su bj ect to t h e i r L o rdships. no hoped and trusted that there was sufficient virtue in the other House of Porliament not to evade a sduty on this point. AFFAIRS OF INDIA. In reply to a request from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH postponed till Monday , next the questions which he had intended to ask on this sub ject on Tuesday (this day). STATE OF IRELAND. The Earl of RODEN gave notice that he would, to-mor row, put a question to the Government with reference to the melancholy state of the disturbed districts in the north of Ireland. If the answer Which he might receive should prove unsatisfactory, he should feel it his duty to bring the state of that part of the country under their Lordships' con sideration. REFORM OF THE COMMON L&W. The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to move the second reading of the Common Law Procedure Bill. This was one of the Bills which bad been mentioned in her Majesty's Speech, and was founded on the recommendation of the Com missioners, who bad well considered the reforms which might be introduced into the procedure of the conamon law. Their. Lordships were, doubtless, aware of the distinctions which existed between that branch of the law by whic h rights were determined, and th a t b ranc h which reg ulated the course of procedure by which those rights were pre sented for litigation. The ter branch of the law, and it was addressed to remedy those present Bill belonged to the pr e sented and deficiences which were ner any and with h os e s tice complained of. The present systemge of procedure ori ginated ill a remote period. It was now InAPPrOPriate tO, and inconsistent with the changes of the time ii lived, and it produced conscquencett precVa sit e of those which its origin .:I frame:, interet pally, there was no such thing as written pleadio tiiu"s, but a system of oral pleading then e: party Lrou,.: s lit :An action he cam, into cowl - . case, and then the defendant's counsel either r iectic.n in point of form, or disputed th; merits. The objection, if it were merZt. sees decided instantly, and if the decision the plaintiff, application to amend was diately, and after such amendment was made the dere.. was called upon to answer the case upon its merits. When the defendant had pleaded to the action and the objection of the plaintiff's counsel to that plea, if any were made, had been taken down by the officer of the court, the pleadings were put in a proper shape, and the issue which the jury had to decide upon when the day of trial came was arranged. In later times, when the legal basiness had so increased, it was found impossible any longer to have a form of oral pleading. The declaration accordingly was prepared in w riting, and the defendant had time given him to answer the allegations which it contained. It bad frequently hap pened that when the objections to a declaration were of a mere formal n a t ure, t h at those objections were not argue d and determined upon for six or twelve months after the declaration had been, filed. That was one of the great objections to the present system of procedure, for it fre quently happened that a mere frivolous objection would delay applied cause considerable d e l ay. The observation with regar d to in equally a cause.t('the ulterior pro ceedingsthe which were taken Their Lord ships would perceive how differently • mere formal objec tions were dealt with in times past to what they were at present. In very early times all cases were tried in Westminster Hall, b u t in the.r of Henry I. a took statute was passed by which a c i rcu i t t eign H place once a year; and in the reign of Edward 111. the statute was passed which had reference to the sittings at Nisi P • rins, and the assizes were directed to be held twice a year by that statute. Still, in form, the case was apparently tried in Westminster, be cause the jury who belonged to the county in which the action was to be tried were summoned as if to attend in Westminster Hall; but they did not attend, and were only actually summoned when the judge went the circuit. In the year 1846 there had been 146,000 writs issued; 2 per cent. of the whole were tried, 5 per cent. went as far as the declaration, and 7 per cent. never reached even that stage; so that in one-half of the cases in which writs were issued the dispute was settled before the time arrived for entering an appearance to a declaration. The vast majority of cases in which writs were issued were for undisputed debts. The present Bill sought to diminish the expense connected with the earlier stage of a cause. The present Bill travelled through every stage of the suit. It provided that when a writ was issued it should be endorsed, which endorsement should state how much was claimed for the debt and how much for costs, thereby giving the defendant notice in an early part of the proceedings what was the amount the pay ment of which he had to object to. If the defendant did not appear to the action judgment was to be signed upon the writ without the expense of a declaration, or of an in terlocutory judgment, or a final judgment, according to the nature of the action. By the present state of things the declaration gave a defendant no material information, and its abolition in these cases would be no loss, but a great benefit. The present Bill also did away with technical ob jections, which their Lordships were aware were not connected in any way with the material points in the case. There were numerous other objections, called special demurrers, which consisted of objections taken at an earlier stage of the case. There was a statute which had been passed which required that technical objections should be stated in the form of special demurrer, and should be kept separate from any demurrer which applied to the real merits of the case. By the present system special demurrers remained for many months on the paper before they were disposed of. There were also many steps in the proceeding which did not form the subject of a special demurrer, and which might not be noticed until the defendant either moved in arrest of judg ment or for a writ of error, and in those cases he could stop the whole proceedings at the time when the plaintiff thought that he should get justice done him. The present Bill would allow no writ of error unless the objection were taken in an early stage of the cause. It was not to be expected that a Bill of this extent could be framed so as to be free from all objections. The motive of its introduction was to remove much of that odium which belonged to the present system of the procedure at common law, and he believed it would go far to secure that object. Lord LYNDHURST said that no reasonable person could object to the Bill being read a second time. The Bill was the result of many months of labour and assiduity on the part of those who had it in their power to make it as perfect as possible. The objection he entertained to the measure related to points of detail, which could be amended in Com mittee. There was, however, one question to which he would wish to have a satisfactory reply. The county courts had been established for some years. He was told that since the jurisdiction was extended to 50/. no less than 5,000 causes of between 201. and 50/. had been tried in five months, being at the rate of 12,000 causes a year, and the decisions in each case had given satisfaction. Now, he could not understand why the simple machinery of the county courts could not be applied to the superior courts of common law in ordinary cases, where the superior judges could decide them. Lord BROUGHAM said he entirely concurred with his Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down, that the proper course to take would be to give the Bill a second read ing, and to reserve all matter of detail for the Committee. He agreed in the eulogium which the Noble Lord who bad just spoke had passed upon the county courts; but with re spect to the question of still further extending their jurisdic tion, that was a subject on which he was not prepared to pro nounce an opinion. Lord LYNDHURST said the Noble and Learned Lord had entirely mistaken his meaning. He had not said that he de sired to see the jurisdiction of the county courts extended to large sums; but what he said was, that he could not under stand why the simple machinery of the county courts could not be applied in the superior courts to the same class of actions.—(Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM apologised to the Noble and Learned Lord, but he had understood him to intimate an opinion that the jurisdiction of the county courts might advan tageously be extended to causes of 2001. and 3001. The present was a period when extensive reforms of the law were required by the country. He thought those reforms might be made extensively and with advantage to the public. He could not express his feelings on the subject more appropriately than by reading the language of Lord Denman, who, on being referred to for his opinion on the law reforms now proposed, replied as follows :—" The present crisis cannot fail to suggest considerations of the highest im portance. There are the appearances of an attempt to esta blish order en absolute power, and to teach mankind the les son that the will of one may be most safely intrusted with the interests of all. But if there be any truth in moral reasoning, or in long experience, all know that without the basis of law no solid fabric of order can possibly be reared or any security given for the rights which even the best-minded man and the best-designed decrees may pretend to confer, It appears to be the peculiar vocation of England to exhibit to the nations of the world a steady Government and peaceable, because contented, people; and that content must not be looked for, since it cannot and ought not to exist where the p r ess is ree and the people but moderately enlightened. whilst a single grievance is wilfully retained after exposure." The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was not aware of the course of proceeding in the county courts after the declara tion had been filed, but he was certain that any recommenda tions or suggestions which might fall from the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Lyndhurst) would be received with re spect and consideration by the public. IN e had perused ENGLAND. Lord SFlsome ,ORRAENIGGFNoR REFUGEESsaid that h do cuments which had been pub lished, and which .contai ned the remonstrances of some foreign Governments against the manner in which certain refugees had been received in this country. The first of t these remonstrances was from the President of the French Republic, and was dated on the 29th day of last October, which was shortly before the late Se cretary for Foreign Affairs quitted to doffice. A l ong t i me had wished elapsed since the n, and he ask the Noble Lord who had succeeded Lord Palmerston whether any answer was returned by Lord Palmerston to those remonstrances ; and if so. what the nature of the reply was ? in him to _go at any length into the subject. Earl GRANVILLE said, having so lately succeeded the Noble Viscount (Palmerston) he thought it would not be given any entrrgance be could not state, but it he had remained the Noble Viscount had answertothe he had no doubt it would hr t ‘ . eva e m e vh o eoe m nt a hsi ccorded with the one which he (Earl Granville) had in office, and had sent a reply, given.ie The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH wished to know whether the late Secretary for Foreign Affsirs had given him any ex planation with respectin t w o h t i la ch e conversati on w hi c h b e h a d h a d Earl GRANVILLE said w ith M. Walewski ot c le o oa n nt v ? er w s h at e i n on Lhoerdhapd Palmerston quitted office, he had given of the conduct of Louisouis Na statement with respect to ou v r e r n ela h ti i but he had ma d e no mention of his relations a n scw m o intoivis conversation t e igon r n caownodint with r lucid ,ime a Walewski. THE CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL AND THE PA- Lord LYNDIIU RST eaid he wished TENT LAW AMEN, M to call the attention ENT. of the House to th e s t ate o f t h e b us i ness w hi c h was now before it. I n the House of Commons there were sev en or eight imnortant BUN, which no doubt would become law during the present session ; whilst; with the exception of the Bill relating to the amendment of the patent law, which had been read a second time that evening, there was not a single Bill before the House. Some people thought that the House of Lords was a sort of House of revision of the Bills passed in the House of Commons, but that was quite a mistake. He was surprised that the Charitable Trusts Bill, which was brought forward last session, had not been re introduced. There was also another important Bill which was introduced last session, viz., the Patent Law Amend ment Bill, which went down to the House of Com mons and nearly became the law of the land. It was thought that from the nature of the Bill it was better that it, should be introduced first in the other House, but after some consi 'eration that proposal wcs rejected. Some forty or fifty amendments had been made in the Reuse of Com mons to that Bill; one of which wes to do away with t he affixing the great seal to patents, a proposition which ex cited the displeasure of his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. Owing to the number of amendments to the Bill, it had only been returned to their Lordships' House the day before Parliament was prorogued, and consequently was lost for the session, there hei,,g no time to consider the amend ments which had been made. They had now now to go over the details of the Bills which were lost last session again. Such would be the case with the Charitable Trusts Bill, and the;l3ill for the amendment of the patent law. He begged to ask, therefore, whether his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack could not introduce the Charitable Trusts Bill, and some Noble Lord on the other side of the House the Patent Law Amendment Bill, into their Lordships' House to prevent further loss of time ? e an a i d n dition The LORD CHANCgEhLtL right, g l :ht t t h h e restrain li'lai infringing Patent L e aw proceedingsAmend mentiune. he of suggested law to grantth to ,red w i t h great care, and when the Bill had been prep Bill was brought under hisan.ocotiacret of one clause, authorising injunc tion when it was thou of parties who might be charged'to their Lordships , rli2gin g a patent. The Bill was brought in House as early as it could be; but, after it went down to the other House, it was so entirely altered that, at the late period at which it ossible th it was imp at it could be re-consi was returned. ession. In some communications he had had wi h de r last on the esubect he had is colleagus l Bills which had proposed to bring into th a t house al in the o previous session of Co t h e House mons but • passed not their Lordships' r introduce i h House, an- - n t-e House of Commons such Bills a s might have nassed their Lordships' House but not t h e other House of Parliament ; and dun er that arrange ment the Patent Bill was intended to have been brought into their Lordship,' 'Luse. A communication, how ever, had been made to the Government, w hich led them to strenuously su ppose that the Bill would b e opposed is the ether House, unless * a Committee were pointed to inquire generally into the subject. Some very influential members of the House of Commons, who were extremely competent to give their judgment upon the ques tion, desired to have this Committee; and no time would be lost in forwarding the Bill. The Charitable Trusts Bill had passed that House last session, and had been fully discussed both upstairs and down, and it was therefore deemed ex„ .1171 ••• • ; 1, .5,, . 5ha f ". :41 ;4 44 1 5f - '/ I fs kgi : * :t` rn 73.1, -- OP Ara.