The Sun. — London, England, 1848-02-11 00:00:00

. . . We believe that in Leeds and several other large towns, the sectional boards, tenacious of life, oppose. this transfer of their present !Malted powers; but common sense dictates that in Sheffield and all other incorporated towns, the municipal council is the only body to whom these important powers should be entrusted." With regard to a particular pert of Sheffield they say— " The cesspool here is generally full, and the accu mulation of refuse so great that the house adjoining is seldom occupied and scarcely tenantable. It is a re markable fact, that searcely any of the children born in this yard who were attempted to be brought up came to maturity, for out of the tour houses which it contains (one generally empty) no less than thirty children have died within the last forty years." In regard to another place they say— " Sixteen cases of fever and one of death have occurred in the adjoining houses within a few months, and four cases of fever and two deaths in houses whose windows are directly opposite to the point where drainage from this lane escapes into Edward-street. It is worthy of remark that no such cases have occurred in places fur ther removed from this vicinity; the inference in this instance is irresistible." They add— " We would suggest the adoption of the following measures, —namely, better constructed dwellings, both as regards light and ventilation—(Hear, hear)—and a liberal supply of water; the substitution of water-closets for the present open privies, and as many as possible of them in relation to the number of houses; also more spacious and commodious yards well paved and drained, with public washing houses and baths in populous dise tricts; and, above all, places fur proper and rational recreation."—(Hear, tear.) I have now carried you—l had almost said too rapidly —but I feel that I have alresdy trespassed upon your patience too long—(Cheers) —but with reference to the subject and the materiels it might easily have been pur- sued—l say, I have carried you in a rapid and most imperfect survey to some of the towns and cities in this country most distinguished for these prominent charac teristics. I have mentioned the places which supply the greater portion of the fuel which feeds our chimneys and our furnaces, which forge the iron and the steel which first shape and then waft along our countless manufactures; which weave those fabrics, that, even on the barks of the Wolga, enable us to enter into competi• tion with and outsell the finest fabrics of Asia, and to clothe the inhabitants of the furthest tropics. Shall it be said—or if it has been said hitherte, shall it be said any longer—that these vast hives of industry, and the sources of such unlimited supplies to the comforts of civilization and the whole race of mankind—that the homes of the men who do and make these things should be pre-eminent as the seats of filth and disease and de gradation in their worst shapes and forms ?—(Hear, hear)—that toils the most unsparing, that exertions the most successful, should be beset with these enervating and deadening influences ? that these herculean labours which cannot now be said to be in the cradle shall not be able to strangle the noisome reptiles wheel infest them ?—(Hear, hear.) Even here to-night I ask for the labour of Britain and its agents all the advantages and all the appliances which your fostering care and your advancing knowledge can give them. I do not ask you to stifle individual enterprise or local efforts with Government interference, or with too much looking after. I would leave these to their proper action anti their legi timate exercise and development. But' I do ask you to make the imperial knowledge and science and skill of our best heads and most adroit hands available for pointing out to them the true and proper path, and for taking care that they shall not go far astray from it. I beg to move, Sir, for leave to bring in a Bill for this pur pose.—(Cheers.) Colonel SIBTHDRP said, he was inclined to look with a considerable degree of jealousy on this measure in consequence of the exemption of the metropolis from its operation. lie confessed he had cheered the Noble Lord on the present occasion when lie heard him intro duce the word metropolis ; but a friend hinted to him at the moment that he had been too hasty in giving that cheer ; and be found he had been so, for he was greatly disappointed that the Noble Lord still persisted in with holding this great boon from the metropolis when he gave it to other towns which he was sure did not so much require it. The House had been told that a com mission bad been appointed for some time to make a report. Why, then, was their report not on the table ? He would like to kuow, too, what were the salaries of the Commissioners? He was ready to support the Noble Lord in carrying any measure of this kind which should extend to every part of the United Kingdom; not only so, but ho was ready to contribute out of his own pocket to assist the object ; but he called upon the Noble Lord not to be content with a partial measure like the present. Lord DUNCAN hoped it was unnecessary to assure the House that he would be the last person to rise for the purpose of placing any obstacle in the way of a sanitary measure. He had listened with the deepest attention to the speech of the Noble Lord in introducing the present Bill, and he rose merely with the view of directing the Noble Lord's attention to one omission which ke had hoped from the notice he (Lord Duncan) had placed that night on the table would not have occurred. The Noble Lord had remarked that there had been a great deal said and little done with resit -et to sanitary measures. He (Lord Duncan) fully concurred In that assertion. But the Noble Lord had also been pleased to say that he had observed great apathy respecting this measure out of doors. He begged to tell the Noble Lord that there was no apathy about sanitary measures out of doors, and that the working classes were anxiously looking for the interference of the Legislature on the subject. The Noble Lord stated that the object of the measure was to check obvious abuses. Now, he (Lord Duncan) had listened attentively to the Noble Lord's list of obvious abuses. The Noble Lord had mentioned defective sewerage and drainage, but he thought he spoke rather under his breath when he came to the subject of ventila tion, although he remembered that not many years ego the Noble Lord was quite eloquent on that subject, as well as on the window-tax. The Noble Lord, in a speech made by him at Wakefield on the 20th of July, 1846, said— " Amongst other matters, the lodgings of the bulk of our population are far other than what we should wish to see them—(Hear, hear)—and they are capable of almost indefinite improvement by receiving increased facilities for the acquisition of fresh air, of good water, of more space, and of wholesome light." He held in his hand the report of the Committee of the Health of Towns Association, which met to consider Lord Lincoln's Sewerage and Drainage Bill. The Noble Lord (Morpeth) was a member of that Committee, and being at the time in opposition, looked at the Bill with the eye of a ,jealous critic. Lord MORPETH denied that he had ever attended the Committee. Lord DUNCAN said, the Committee had published the report with the Noble Lord's name attached to it. He remembered that in " Gulliver's Travels" the people of Laputa are represented as being so taken up with sublunary matters that they required flappers to refresh their memory. It' the Noble Lord would allow him he would act the part of his flapper—(A laugh)—and read an extract from the report. [The Noble Viscount then proceeded to read the extract, in which the Com mittee, after having discussed Lord Lincoln's Bill clause by clause, said there was one subject so intimately con nected with sanitary improvement that no sanitary mea sure could be complete without it; but it was wholly passed over by the Bill in question, and that was the subject of the window-tax.] He perfectly agreed with that report. The Noble Lord had said very little about the ventilation of dwellings, and no wonder, fur he held in his hand an account of a case that had recently occurred relating to the windoltetax, and which had been referred to that House.—(Hear, hear.) It was the case of an unfortunetes individual-7e a Mr. John Williams, a solicitor at Penryn, who having heard a great deal about the benefit of good ventilation had made a few apertures in his pantry, For those he was charged a large turn for window-tax. The magis trates relieved him from it, but the surveyor appealed, and three Judges of thoQueen'a Bench decided that he was liable to the tax, and, fined him for having actually ventilated his dwelling. He bad no desire to bring on a discussion about the window-tax, but he wished to show the Noble Lord that there was a strong feeling out of doors, that no sanitary measure could be complete which did not embrace the subject of the window-tax. (Hear, hear.) The people of this kingdom were look ing forward to a revision of taxation, and to an appor tionment of it to each man according to his money, and he would tell the Noble Lord that neither this nor any other sanitary measure be could introduce would be popular in this country unless it grappled with a ques tion which might be difficult, but which was to be destroyed by their long illness. There were several persons ill' in two houses of the same terrace, and doubt less from the same cause." He had abstained from making an allusion to the lamentably long list of persons, whose duties as medical men, poor livr officers, or those engaged in the service Of religion, had called them into localities in houses where they received the seeds of maladies which hurried them into the grave. One name, however, prominently headed the list, that of Dr. Jordan Lynch. The other individuals he would not site, but he might be permitted to refer to an extract from a statement which had reached him from Newcastle. " A few short months ago Bishop Riddell, the Rev. J. Standen, and Dr. Charlton, were in communication with the authorities of Newcastle, to represent to them the filthy, overcrowded, and infected cond ition of Sand gate and neighbouring localities. Tht project was then entertained of removing fever patients to a more open and elevate d part of the town, where, in some temporary or other building, their chance of recovery would be greater, while the spread of the infection among the in hebitants would be kept in check. A similar suggestion was made by Mr. Greenhow at the time of the cholera. Dr. Bewring, in the paper which he read at Newcastle, in 1838, at the meeting of the British Association, gave a rem irkable illustration of the success of such a re moval in the case of the plague; but the proposal of June last, in Newcastle, was not adopted; the sanitary condition of the infected district has since undergone little amendment, and the fever has extended its ravages. The Rev. J. Standen is dead—the Right Rev. Dr. Rid dell is dead—martyrs to their self-denying devotion to the cause of suffering humanity?' Ile km w it would be said that all those men died in their vocation; but it ought to be recollected that there had been no provision made by a munificent nation for the widows and orphans left behind them by the class of men to whom he referred.—(Hear, hear.) There was a gentleman whose name would be familiar to many agri cultural Members—Mr. Josiah Parkes he meant, who was engaged in some extensive drainage operations, and who thus expressed his sentiments upon this important subject:— "Fewson is here, his mother being dead; she was buried vesterday. She was a nice, clean, hard-working, respectable woman, and, what is very vexing about her death is, that a nasty, filthy town drain, that runs under their house, has been the cause of it. I tell Fewson he should inform Lord ,lorpeth of it. Such deaths are really awful, and of very common occurrence. Fewson is my superinteedent of drainage in the Paccnix Park. Ile writes me that he fears his father will fall a sacrifice also to the satre disease. I find that within a space of 30 yards square there are 16 houses, wherein there have been 18 cases of fever, one of which, Mrs. Fewson, has died; and several others have had a very narrow escape. One medical gentleman, Mr. Boulton, a magistrate, who has attended sixteen out of the eighteen of the above named fever cases, is of the same opinion as myself, that those fever eases are broupht on by the bad state of the drain, which is alongside of the thirty yards square ; in fact, Fewson's house, I believe, is partly built upon it. The drain is a public one, for the use of the east part of the town ; it is arched over about twenty feet beyond the thirty spare yards, but from the yards there are aide drains and grates without cesspoole, and also beyond the thirty feet it is an open drain, the stench from which is at all times very offensive ; it is one of the worst drains we have ; but tne whole drainage of the town ie very bad, very shallow, with little fall, so that they always contain large quantities of stagnant water and filth, which I fear nothing can remove, except your Health of Teens Bill." He (Lord Morpeth) had received a report from Mr. Croskell, of which he would read an extract " I made inquiries of one of the most practical men in Beverley, who is well acquainted with the drainage of the nei g hb our hood, and is now professionally employed in the Bermston drainage, which runs from near Beverley to the sea, and he, while quite admitting how ope n the locality to which your Lordship's attention has been caled is to complaint, yet assures me that there are many worse instances in the town, and that nothing but a general deepening of the drainage can eft': ctually remedy the evil under which the town, in this te sp:ct, labours. This can only be accom plished through some such measure as your Lordship's Health of Towns Bill, and until that has been passed, and it is rendered compulsory on local authorities to deal with these evils, I feel assured your Lordship would not attain any satisfeotory result by interference in an indi vidual case like that which has been pointed out to you at Beverley." And many other communications which he had received on the subject corroborated the statements just read. But were those cases to which Mr. Parkes, Mr. Croskell, and others referred extreme ones ? Was the drain described by the former gentleman as having caused the death of one or more individuals an isolated one ? Did Beverley stand alone in its unhealthiness ? This could not, unfortunately, be asserted. In Suffolk the statis tical and sanitary reports gave results which, if not similar, were very considerably worse. lie would quote from Mr. Glyde's report, which stated that the " Averaga annual deaths in Suffolk (from a calcula tion of seven years), were 1 in 51; in Ipswich, more than lin 42. If iv • assume the population during till. period to have been 25,600, and the rate of mortality to' have been the same as Beverly and Yarmouth, the num ber would have been 512 instead of 603, showing a loss of 728 lives in eight years. (This reference to Beverly shows that it is regarded as a favourable instance of a salubrious town.) Infantine mortality is considered ono of the most important tests that can be applied to p rove the sanitary condition of a town. In Whitby, 26 per cent. in Lancaster, 29; York, 31; Ipswich, 29 per cent. die under 5 years of age. In Ipswich there are 103 streets and lanes,ls of which are without any drainage, 19 with surface drains on one side only, extending only partly through them; and 42 streets and lanes not paved. . . Where there is no drainage dampness is a general complaint. Paper wets on the wall, water rises in the cellar, and things get mouldy in the cup board. Several cases were 10 or 12 houses have privies in common. The purity of the water which comes to the town has been spoken of in high terms, and the ability to afford abundance generally acknowledAed. Yet the water from the pumps is complained of for its impurity, and many of the poorer classes have a great distance to fetch their water. On the head of expense; there were in 1642, 82 deaths above the average of Huddersfield and Beverley. The general expenses of these at 44 10s. each amounted to awns/. Deaths were from consumption 41 above the average of England. Taking the duration of illness at nine months, the expense of sickness at 105. per week, there is a loss from excess of deaths from consumption of 7281. If for every death there aro 20 cases of sick ness, an excess of 82 deaths would give 2,296 cases of unnecessary sickness. Take the average expense of each case of sickness at 103., there is a loss from unnecessary sickness of 1,1481.; excess of funerals, 3 82/ ; deaths from consumption, 7281.; ~.unnecessary sick, 1,1481.; total, 2,245/." But he would not take the House through those de tails as regarded the United Kingdom—be would content himself with laying one or two cases before them, in order to exhibit the condition of the highest and most Wealthy provincial and manufacturing towns. From the 4 m of Newcastle, Dr. Hcadlam wrote thus: — He was sorry to say that streets and suburbs were risin g with the same disadvantages. Streets were built Without sewers, the ground not even levelled, and the soil in the centre saturated with filth.' Mr. Currie, of the Working Men's Association, said, He and other members of the committee were appalled by the scenes they had witnessed. He had never conceived that a locality existed in so miserable a condition as Sandgate. There was not a privy in its whole length or breadth.' Gallee resided in Westgate. The annual value of the property was 25,000/.; little more of' the property there 'valued at 5,000/. Was reserved. Places quite as bad e,b Sandgate.' Dr. White, The statements of Mr. Currie and Mr. Galle were not overcharged. The misery °f Sandgate - could not be conceived; it must be seen to be believed. - In one single room in that locality he had seen 13 cases - of fever.' Mr. Greenlaue--` They were too well aware of the prevalence of fever in Newcastle for some time past ; during the whole of this time,while the gaol was surrounded by fever, there had been even less disease than usual within its walls. To what was this to be attributed? Simply to the adoption within the prison of those salutary regulations which it was their object to extend to the whole community. Dr. Lonadale, in his report on Carlisle, says— , "In th e assurance t a bles of this country the mortality in Carlisle within the last 20 years used to be estimated at 1 in 54 of the inhabitants, being lower than the present average of the 15 healthiest counties in this king dnro• Now, in 1841 it was lin 39 , being actually hig her than that of the average of the 15 unhealthiest counties! If, as is now admitted, the healthy and natural standard of mortality in England and Wales is 2 per cent. per annum, or 1 in 50, it is evident that Carlisle, with its rate of mortality 1 in 39, or more than 24 per cent. per annum, stands greatly in need of sanitary improvement." s „..Se that, if the average mortality of England and !trales ras taken at 2 in 100, the ratio of Carlisle was Per cent., showing that it was more unhealthy than the avera ge of places. The towns of Hull, Wolver hampton, Bradford, Hertford, Ware, and many other Places whence returns had been received by pains-taking persons, gave the same general results, and he would m only quote the report which had reached hi m from ,Sheffield, drawn u p by James Heywood, a chemist, and " Lee, a civil engineer, resident there: — , " We wi s h we could find language suffic ientl y stron g to impress upon the council the absolute necessity for immediate action. The case is desperate, and supineness Would be. criminal. After the first few days' experience In our recent inspection, we were able, with an awful precisi on , not only to detect the unhealthy parts of the town, but the portions of the streets, and the part icular houses in streets and in courts especially liable to febrile and other disease. In hundreds of these we were able at once to d escr ib e t o th e su ff erers all the symptoms of the disorders with which they were afflicted. The re sult of that inspection is a conviction, which nothing can ever remove or weaken, that besides all the instances in which persons ultimately recover from long sickness and consequent distress, 1,000 at least are destroyed every year in this town by diseases which would have no ex istence under complete sanitary arrangements. To rea lize in the aggregate this unnecessary amount of mor tality, and to appreciate the concomitant evils of domestic bereavement and pecuniary embarrassment, struggling poverty and helpless pauperism followin g in its train, must appal the mind of every memb er o f the council, and lead to the most strenuous efforts in the application of remedial measures." They go on to say— . Th a t the water supply, cleansing, and pavingaret:aet present in the hands of three distinct bodies, under h authority of as many distinct Acts of Parliament.-- (Rear, hear.) The sewerage, though much has been done during the last few years, is illegitimate. All these must be harmoniously worked together as parts of the "tee system; and we are firmly convinced that this can 0 41 3g be e : en ne t ::y placing them, and a ll other aaniiar y under the control of one public body. overcome. Mr. HOBSMAN said, the Noble Lord who bad moved for leave to introduce the Bill had manifested all the zeal of a philanthropist with the ability of a states man. The measure was large and comprehensive, and if followed up with vigour it could not fail of success. He thought that the number of Commissioners pro posed by the Bill was the best that could have been fixed upon, and as there was no such bad economy as underpaying public servants he trusted that the Noble Lord would not be deterred by any taunts of creating patronage from making his commission efficient in that respect; and that whoever the Commissioners might be they would be adequately paid. The annual salary of I t oool., which was suggested last year, was, in his opi nion, very much too little for the purpose. But it he adverted to one old grievance, he hoped that the Noble Lord would not doubt that he fully appreciated all the Noble Lord bad done. He could not but regret the omission of the question of interments in towns. But as the Noble Lord said he should bring in some supple mental Bills, he hoped that, difficult as the subject might be, it would be provided for in those Bills. Six years ago , whe n this question was brought forward by the Right lion. Member for Lincoln. a. Committee was appointed and made a report; and in that report Dr. Chambers said he believed that the fever which was called typhus, then prevalent in the neighbourhood of Brook street, was oc casioned by the effluvia arising from the burial grounds. Sir B. Brodie, Dr. Copeland, and other eminent medical men expressed similar opinions. In the history of Par liament never was there such a body of evidence laid upon the table—evidence of horrors such as he had never perused before, and trusted ho never should again. Since then various Bills had been proposed, but nothing effec tual had been done. It was evident that there was some difficulty too great for all G ov ernments—and that it was a most mysterious one. The Noble Lord sa i d di.tinctly last year that the clergy wer e q uite will ing to give up their interest and render every a ssistance in their power. Twenty years ago Mr. Milman , t he rector of the par i sh of St. Margaret's, Westminster , bad declared that tne burial ground there could no longer be used without danger to the health of the parish, and it was said there would be no more burials there. But that very morning, as he (Mr. Horsman) was going to the house, he saw a grave opened in that churchyard. Ho hoped the Noble Lord would believe that he was not cc nsuring him for not introducing the subject into this Bill; but that if the Government telt that they were able to carry out an efficient measure, the Noble Lord would then intro- duce it into one of the supplemental Bills, and he was sure that if the Noble Lord did so, the public were pre pared to give him that aid which would overcome all difficulty. If it were a question of money, of clergy men's fees, so strong was the public feeling upon it, that he was sure that if the Chanceller of the Exche quer came forward with a vote upon the eulject they would sooner make that sacrifice than that the nuisance should continue in its present state. Captain PECHELL regretted that the Noble Lord had not given them some information as to the mode of rh cting the local commissioners in towns proposed to be affected by this measure. He - agreed in what had fallen from the Noble Viscount near hint (Duncan) on the subject of the window-tax. That morning he had formed one of a deputation that waited upon the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, and he had done all in his power to extract from the Right Hon. Gentleman what his notion of a window was, but his efforts were unavailing.—(A. laugh.) No measure could be skis factory unless it allowed light and air to be enjoyed without any interference from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. HUME said, that whilst he approved of a large portion of the Noble Lord's measure, yet it behoved the Government and the House to consider whether they were not putting the local community to a great expense for only a partial benefit if they left out of their metuure the removal of the window-tax and the abelition of in , torments in towns. The Government should be com pelled by . the House to find a substitute for the window tax, for it was a mockery to propose a measure of sani tary reform, professing to he comprehensive, without abolishing that tax. He trusted the Noble Lord (Lord Duncan) would bring a motion for reducing the window tax substantively before the House, and that he would take the sense of the Ilouse upon it. Tile Earl of LINCOLN said he should have awaited the second reading of the Bid before offering any re• marks to the House, had not each Hon. Member who had spoken since the Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) sat down commenced with great laudations of the Bill, and finished by dwelling upon the omission of those points which he wi,hed to see in it,—(Hear.) lie protested against these observations, and he would state his con viction that the Noble Lord had acted most wisely in not encumbering the measure with details which would only have impeded its progress. The Noble Lord's Bill was sufficiently comprehensive already, and if it should pass it would be a most valuable contribution towards sanitary reform. It would be, in his opinion, far better to pass this measure now than to add to it the dif ficult and intricate subject of interments in towns. It did not follow, because the Government had omitted that question from the present Bill, that they were not pre pared to take it up hereafter; and ho hoped they would be enabled to deal with it more effectively than their predecessors. In an abstract point of view, it was highly desirable to:remove the wineow-tax, but it might be that the Noble Lord was prevented from doing what he would wish in that respect by his Right Hon. Colleague near him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). That question must also be dealt with by itself, and, although trie window-tax was much and justly complained of, he thought it would be desirable to accept what they could get. lie could point out live or six important branches of sanitary reform, but he did not regret that the Noble Lord had omitted them from his Bill. Without following the Noble Lord through any details, he would simply state, that the measure no .v brought in appeared to him to be considerably improved upon that of last year. The local machinery was more likely to meet with dos ap probation of the country than that in former kills. It adopted a better natural area for drainage, and if it taxed those who were benefitted by it, the Bill gave them an opportunity of voting for the persons who were to ex pend their money. The Noble Lord was also inclined to confine within its legitimate bounds the central au thorit), and there was no more internaeddling with local authorities than was necessary.—(llear, hear.) If it should be found that the measure in these respects was an improved one, he had no doubt it would meet with a more favourable reception than former Bills on this sub ject, and it would pass the House and prove highly beneficial to the coantry.—(bear.) Mr. SLANEY drew the attention of the House to the immense change in the social pursuits of the people which had taken place within the last fifty years. In the year 1790 the proportion of the labouring classes engaged in husbandry was as two to one compared with those employed in manufactures, whereas those propor tions were now exactly reversed. Plenty of inquiries had been made into the social and sanitary condition of the people, and it was upon no light evidence that the necessity of legislation was established. Ile could not mention the name of Mr. Edwin Chadwick, by whom these inquiries were instituted, without paying his tri bute of admiration to that gentleman for the constant ability, industry, and intelligence with which he had directed the powers of his mind to this subject. The labouring classes of the kingdom owed Mr. Chadwick a deep debt of gratitude for his exertions in their behalf, and for having devoted his mind to the improve ment of their sanitary condition.—(Hear, hear.) The reports of the Health of Towns Commissioners abun dantly showed the necessity of the measure now before the Rouse. The Commissioners visittd 50 large towns, and they reported that in not one of them were the arrangements for drainage, cleansing, and the supply of water at all perfect ; while 45 out of the 50 exhibited the most defective sanitary arrangements, so far as they regarded the health of the lower classes of her Majesty's subjects. It had been said the measure now before the House would cause great expense, but he, as one of the Health of Towns Commissioners, said it was a measure of economy, and that it would not only he beneficial to the poor. but a saving to the rich, by les- sening the poor-rates and diminishing crime; while, in the increase of contentment and health among the hum bier classes, it would, he was certain, repay double and treble anything that might be expended in sanitary im provement.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that property should be protected, but he would ask, whether the poor man's property, which was his health, his strength, his sinews, and his power to labour, ought not to be pro tected by the laws and usages of society, as well as the property of the rich? The Commissioners found in their inquiries that the moral condition of the poor was ex actly coincident with their physical condition, and that where they were suffering under defective sanitary ar rangements they became discontented, reckless, andflew to intoxication as a short remedy for the depressing sensations they experienced. Then they were up braided for that which was not in fact their fault, and which might have been prevented. He trusted, how ever, that a new and better system was now about to prevail, and that the amelioration of the working classes would be carried out in a comprehensive - and enlightened able or convenient to the nasty turtle-eating Corporation. --(Laughter,)—Why did not her Msjerty's Ministers resist the soup influence?—(lienr, hear.) Why should that influence be allowed to prevail rgainst any measure calculated to benefit the community? Then, with re gard to the important question of intramural inter. meats. The Noble Lard was perfectly aware of the poisonous effluvia arising from the metropolitan grave yards—he was equally well aware of its dangerous effects, but he could not encounter the opposi tion of the Church. The clergy had a vested in terest in the churchyards, and it was not con venient for Government to interfere. Did the Noble Lord believe, would the House believe, that the mascu line mind of the people of England would be content with a measure of this kind, a measure which did a little and then shirked the remainder? The public would be dissatisfied, and they had a right to be dissatisfied. The people in the towns would, more particlarly, be dissatis fied with a measure which fastened on them a new bur den for sanitary improvements, while it did not relieve them from the burden of the window-tax. He would again ask the Noble Lord to reconsider the measure. Let his Lordship include the whole of the kingdom in one Bill. Let him not be content with remedying the minor grievances, but at once strike at the root of the mischief. lie would bring to the mind of the Noble Lord what was now going on in the metropolis. The Noble Lord had lately received a deputation from Islington, in the c entre of which densely populated district it was proposed to erect a fever hospital. Did the Noble Lord props to to take powers in the Bill to prevent the establishment of such a nuisance? Who was one of the principal promoters of this fever hospital? No less a personage than Dr. Southwood Smith, one of the Health of Towns' Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord did not propose to take powers to prevent this nuisance—he proposed nothing of the kind. The Noble Lord had told the House that he was afraid the accu mulation of filth in the metropolis and large towns would create typhus, and that the typhus might become ge neral; but here it was proposed to introduce the evil, in its worst form, in the very heart of Islington. The Noble Lord knew that the ground had be• n purchased, and that the building of this fever hospital was about to be commenced; yet, with that knowledge, the Noble Lord took no power in the Bill to prevent such an in fiction. What an inefficient, miserable measure it must be! No such a thing could by possibility happen in Paris. There they had a public body always setting. receiving deputations ani collecting information on the state of public health. Sub-committees were apPointed to superintend separate districts. Those sub committees reported to the committee of public health, and that committee, in its turn, reported to the Mini,ter. If any erection was deemed injurious to public health, it was at once prevented. What would be the feelings of the people of Islington with regard to the measure of the Noble Lord? When they found that it offered no re medy to them, they would be disappointed and indig nant. He did entreat the Noble Lord to extend the scope of the Bill, to rely upon the good sense and proper feeling of the people. If he were just to them they would he just to him, and give him the best sup port he could desire.—(Cheers.) Mr. Alderman SIDNEY said he stood there in a two fold capacity. Ile was not only the representative of a borough in this kingdom, but he also, as an alderman of the city of London, was one of th , Commissioners of Sewers. The Hon. Gentleman had d signatod him and his colleagues as the nasty turtlr-eatieg Corporation (Laughter.) There might be some difference of opinion as to the meaning of the term "nasty," but there coell be no mistake as to the turtle-eaf.ng.—(Laughter.) Ile would beg, however, to remind the House that the Cor portion of London was the first public body in the king dom that attempted to grapple with the great question of drainage. Every main street, and almost all the bye lanes were thoroughly sewered.—(Hear, hear.) And it was:but justice to the Commissioners to say that they were always ready to avail themselves of' every known and practical improvement. The city of London would form no obstacle to the sanitary policy of the Govern ment. The Gallant Colonel who recently addressed the House (Colonel Stbthorp) had placed Billingsgate and St. Giles's in the same category. He (Alderman Sidney) was the reprezentative of the ward of Billings gate, and he lately attended a dinner to which about 30 of the inhabitants sat down. Twenty out of the thirty informed him that they had each resided in the ward for more than forty years. Judging from these asses he should be inclined to say that Billingsgate.wss a remarkably healthy district. As the representative of the borough of Stafford he had been requested to give his support to any great treasure of sanitary improve ment. ile told his constituents that if Government thought proper to allow the boroughs and cities to have the patronage in their own hands, he should certainly give such a measure his most hearty support.—(Laugh ter.) He heard from the Noble Lord that the Bill would leave the main superintendence in the hands of the ratepayers, and he should therefore give the mea sure his support, He thought intramural burials a great evil. He would beseech the Noble Lord to extend the provisions of the Bill to the metropolis. He should like to see the window tax repealed; and if the gaols and markets were removed from the City the conveni ence of the public would be much increased. Mr. WYLD said that the public had already had a specimen of what legislative interference would be in the proceedings of the Metropolitan Sewers Commission. The Commissioners, at their first meeting, ordered that a block-plan of the metropolis should be prepared, and they calcu lated that the survey and plan would cost 61,0001. It would cost more than five times that sum. If the system pursued in the metropolis were carried out in the country the measure would be enormously expensive.— (Hear, hear.) In Isis opinion there existed no necessity for a block-plan, inasmuch as the G and 7 William IV., c. 96, provided that all towns should be surveyed for the purpose of asses,ing the poor-rate, and all the suburban districts had been rurveysci under the Tithe Commuta tion Bill. He hoped some means would be taken to establish a system of medical police—lie considered that a most important point. Mr. MONSELL begged to ask the Noble Lord whether it was intended to bring in a similar Bill for Ireland. Lord MORPETH said that as soon as the present measure could be matured he hoped that the Secretary for Ireland would be able to supply a similar measure for Ireland. Mr. MONSELL—WiII the measure for Ireland be in troduced during the present session ? Lord MORPETH—I hope so. In answer to Mr. WILLIAMS,' Lord MORPETII said the present measure did not exclude the metropolis as regarded the making of drains. Mr. OSBORNE begged to ask the Noble Lord when the separate Bill for the metropolis would be brought in? Lord MORPETH—A Bill for extending and consoli dating the Commission of Sewers will be introduced im mediately; and the sanitary Bill for the metropolis will be brought forward as soon as the sanitary Commis sioners make such;representations as the Government can properly act upon. Mr. OSBORNE—That will not be this session. Lord MORPETII—I hope in the course of a few days. Mr. JOHN REYNOLDS approved of the meestire so far as it went; but expressed his sorrow and deep regret that its provisions were not to be made applicable to ail parts of the kingdom. He could not see why it should not be extended to Ireland and Seetland. Weilst giving to her Majesty's Government full credit for good inten tions to Ireland, he wss not disposed to agree with those who imputed to them the habit of giving good mea sures, when they were to be tried, a trial in England first; ,reed .whucharged them with, when bad measures to all their bad measures a trial first in bieretlratigi(Linogud laughter and cheers.) He said he was not disposed to agrenwitli those who brought such charges against the *GovernMent. But still he could not help again expressing his regret that they were not about to give this measure a good trial in Ireland. Ile Would beg leave to direct the attention of the House to the sanitary condition of the city of Dublin,. than which city' there was none to which the Bill might do more important service. He would read some portions of the evidence taken before Mr. Abraham Heywood, of Dublin, the Queen's Counsel, a gentleman well known to many Honourable Members in the House. Mr. Heywood had i i h n t t o h e t hem courseer i o t s f o h f i s a B i n i q l l u i i r n ; , and intended for the benefit amount of inf orma ti on regarding the ede b othr e feo e ttie n laei: appointed eicelicited etdys oaoi some largeep ut t i o hn jen,aihn inquire ew arage, drainage, paving, Sec., of the city, to winch he s (Mr a . r lt ge ey ' nold hi Reynolds) begged to call the attentien of the Noble The f sthh t toe showing t r t a ihm b e IpeoGr defective t e a n n Gentleman lm ecaonn squares,d t a proceeded ondof to read manyth s elftrrlacts(from the report, and a l so f rom th e ev idence of a i A n glre th Ws e o c mi i l t le e i t so , , being wholly destitute of s ewers; and in many others the sewerage so extremely defective as to be almost ; the contraction of consequencescareles ersnewssand filth by the lower orders of the people , th e increase o f useless. hab ta of the Th e m oat iu t fever, the establish ment of malaria, and the nursing Of hosts of diseases of various descriptions in the crowded dirty back streets and bye lanes.) H oe i ng read.these extracts, the lion. Gentleman expressed a hope that the Noble Lend would take into his consideration the propriety of extending the provisions of the Bill to all parts of the kingdom. lie (Mr. Reynolds) was not going to allud e to that colossus of the kingdom, the giant corporatio n of the city of Lon don, nor to the part adopted by that colossus towards the Noble Lord's measure. But he had to allude to the giant's sister, the corporation of Dublin. Standing as he did as sponsor for that body, he beg ge d to assure the Noble Lord that nothing would give them greater satis faction than the introduction of the provisions of the Bill into their city--(Hear, bear)—and ho trusted that the question of their extension to them w ou ld b e ta k en i nto consideration by her Majesty's Cabi net. The quest i on, too, ought to be considered in connexion with that most obnoxious impcst the window-tax ; for he believed no measure for the improvement of the sanitary condition of the people would give general sati s f act i on un l ess i t were accompanied by the abolition of a tax on light and air. —(Hear, hear.) Lord EBRINGTON having for a long time taken a deep arid sincere interest in the cause to which the Bill before the House related, hoped he would be excused for offering a very few observatiens to the House. His Noble Friend (Lord Morpeth) had already said so much on the introduction of the Bill as to render it unneces sary for him (Lord Ebriogton) to go into any defence of its details, but he could not avoid offering some remarks upon the speeches that had been made subsequently to that of his Noble Friend. 1 10 was glad the Honourable Member for Finsbury bad spoken, because his speech had given an opportunity to the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Reynolds) ta l show that the city he repre sented had no objection, and was not unwilling to have a measure of sanitary reform introduced there. But as the lion. Member for Finsbury had spoken in praise of the superior sanitary condition of Paris, he (Lord Ebring ton) begged to be allowed, as one who had more than once or twice visited that city, to say, that a city which spirit. Mr. WAKLEY said, that he had not had the good fortune to hear the opening statement of the Noble Lord, and could not, therefore, follow him into details. The Noble Lord the Member for Falkirk had not, how ever, paid a very high compliment to the House when he intimated that, if the Noble Lord had brought forward a very good measure, he would have had no chance of passing it. On the contrary, he (Mr. Wakley) thought that the people of England were a straightforward people, and particularly fond of bold and comprehensive measures of legislation. The proposed measure might contain a great deal of good, out, as it stood, it went short of what the public expected; arid his conviction N as, that, instead, of being received with public eppro bation, it would be received, in the towns at least, with public disapproval. The p,reat and comprehensive measure which they had been last session led to expect had not been brought forward.—(Hear, hear.) He had been given to understand that the metropolis was excluded. Lord MORPETH—It is reserved for a separate Bill. Mr. WAKLEY—WIsy should. it be excluded from this Bill ? And when wit this separate Bill to come forth ? The public, had a right to expect that where the greatest nuisanees existed there the remedies should be first applied. And where was that ? It was in Lon don, in stinking London—(Laughter)—in filthy London, that sanitary measures should began.—(Hear.) The Government left untouched the .very centre of the dis ease, while the spots and blemi: bee on the more distant parts of the body were to be subjected to a Ministerial dressing. It was all very well so long as easy matters only were to be managed, bat when courage, energy, and comprehensiveness were required, then the Govern ment flinched. If the Noble Lord had proposed, for ex- 1 ample to interfere with the churchyards, then he knew ' very well that the Church would be at him, and in that respect the Government had flinched from their duty. Then, with regard to the window-tax, was it not literally preposterous to talk about plenty of air and light as necessary to all sanitary improvement, and then to tax both light and air? COuld not the common sense of the people out of doors see the humbug that was practised? This question had been worked very much in Somerset house. The Commissioners there had a great desire to give the people plenty of air, but he would give them something to eat as well; for if they once had pure air they would require more sustenance. It was extraordinary to observe how the half and hall measures of the Government were received with grati tude by that gentle assembly; but for his own part he declared, as the representative of a large portion of the community of this metropolis, that the people had just cause to eemplain of the Government for not having treated this question in a manly and comprehensive spirit. It was monstrous for the Government to pretend to introduce a sanitary measure, and to allow the odious and detestable window-tax to remain unrepealed. What would the large towns say to the measure? They would say " You dare not tax the metropolis, but allow the window-tax to remain; and put additional taxes upon us." He felt grateful to the Noble Lord for the exertions he had made in the cause of sanitary reform; but what the conntry wanted, and what he had hoped tor, was that the Noble Lord should stand erect and bid defiance to all interested opposition. Ho must frankly confess that the Noble Lord had not, in his opinion, given them such a measure as the country had a right to expect. He hoped the Noble Lord would re-coneider the measure, that ho would make it more comprehensive; he might rest assured that he would have the people with him. It had long been the character of the Whigs that, when they had succeeded in doing a certain amount of good, and when they had the opportunity and should have done more good, they have uniformly brought discredit on what they have done, by refusing to go forward.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had lately had representations made to him by gentlemen of the medical profession he signified his full accordance in their views but yet he had not given them the measure they had a right to expect. The medical gentlemen would not re ceive with gratitude the measure now before: the House. The sanitary question was the great question of the day —it was a question intimately connected with the welfare of the people—with their physical condition and moral improvement. It was a question perfectly well under stood by the public. He would a sk why was not the me t ro polis included in the B111? It was because the city of London cou ld not be included, and therefore the metropolitan boroughs must be left out.—(Hear, hear.) It was because the measure was not thought to be agree had hardly any sewers, and until lately scarcely a water-closet,. 'and 'which abounded in cesspools; could hardly be called perfect, and was certainly not exactly to be held up 2S a copy to he followed by us. But, in Fact, the condAion of Paris was vastly worse than that of Ir ndon. As to the suggestion regarding the estab lishment of fever hospitals in the suburbs, there would be great difficulty in dealing with such a proposition. It would be necessary to carry fever patients, in convey ances, provided for them, through the streets and crowded thoroughfares, and great danger might arise irons such an intercourse. With respect to the ob jections made by the Hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Wyld) to the expense of mappin g , from all the estimates that had been laid before the Government, he believed that, far from the alarming sum int taloned by that Hon. Gentleman, about 27,0001. would suffice to cover the whole expense of mapping, exclusive of engraving. Mr. HODGES approved of the Bill, and applauded the conduct of the Noble Lord in excluding the metropo lis from its provisions. Mr. BROTHERTON also approved of the Bill. Lord MORPETH replied. lie expressed great satis faction at the wanner in which the House had received the statement made by him, and hoped it would be ominous of success. Perhaps the only comment upon his statement with which he should be disposed to quarrel would be that which had been made by an Hon. Gentle man, the Hon. Member for Finsbury-, who had not heard him.—(Laughter.) That Hon. Gentleman complained that the measure was deficient in comprehensiveness, and wished that lie (Lord Morpeo) would apply the same principle of legislation to the metropolis which he was about to apply to all other parts of the country. But, after all, taking into account all that was being done in the metropolis, he (Lord Morpeth) believed that London would be, artt r all, the first city in the progress of sanitary reform. and would prove a model of psi fee don in it. With regard to the suggestion of establishing Lover hospitals in the outlets, it would receive the most serious attention from the Government; but the trans terence of fever patients would be certainly attended .vith serious difficulty. But it would hardly have been wise in the Government to have at tempted to introduce into that measure such arrangements as would have opened up the large and extensive question of the establishment of cemeteries—a subject that required great deliberation and caution. But under the new regulation power would be given to the central board to prevent for the future any corpses from being interred nithin the walls of churches, and any fresh interment from taking place within those burial-grounds that were declared injurious to the health of the neighbourhood. No interments could take place in those without the special perini.:,sion of the beard. Power would also bs taken to provide houses for the reception of the dead previously to inter ment, by which those harassing and distressing scenes which had so frequently taken place amongst the poor would be prevented. He admitted that the measure was not and could not be deemed a perfect one, for the Go vernment was amenable to that insuperable law which presented the possibility of everything desirable being done at once.—(Hear, hear.) But if they did not make a beginning by doing some good thing at once, the entire good that was so much desired could never be done at all.—(Hear, hear.) Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, and Lord MORFETH named Lord John Russell, Sir George Grey, and the Attorney-Lieneral, as the Noble and Hon. and Learned Members to whose care it was to be entrusted. The Bkll was subsequently introduced by the Noble Lord, and road a first time, and ordered to be read a • second time on Fridey, the 18th inst. ABINGDON ELECTION. The SPEAKER announced that it was not intended to proceed with the petition against the return of Sir F. Thesiger for the borough of Abingdon. REMOVAL OF TILE POOR. Mr. BAINES useved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the proceedure in respect of orders for the re moval of the poor in -England and Wales, and appeal therefrom. What he proposed was, that instead of the examinations being sent by the removing parishes, there should be sent a statement of the grounds of removal on the one side, and cf appeal on the other; the sessions having the power of amending that statement so that any technical errors might be corrected. COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH CHINA. Mr. CARDWELL rose to bring under the notice of the House the report of the Select Committee appointed in 1847, to take into consideration the present state of our commercial relations with China. The anticipations which had been formed of extended intercourse with the East, and of its affording fresh outlets fur the great and increasing manufacturing power of this country, had not been fulfilled, although, in some respects, our trade with China appeared to justify them. In 1827 our exports to China amounted to nearly 610,0001; in 1843 they had grown to nearly 1,500,0001.; and in 1845 to 2,394,000/. Nevertheless, when, fifteen years ago, the trade of the Eastern empire was opened to competition, we did venture to believe, that, with a population of upwards of 300,000,000, our export trade would hare by this time greatly exceeded 2,400,000/. Our anticipations had not been realised. Such as the trade with China had been, however, a very large portion of it had fallen to Great Britain ; and it was most important to our do mestic interests that we should, as far as possible, en courage and increase its The return of the imports of China in 1845 was 20,000,000 dollars, of which no less than 16,000,000 were imported in British ships, nearly 3.,000,000 in American ships, and the remainder in ships of all the rest of the world. There vile, besides, a very large trade in opium, the greater part of which belonged to depends mice of this country, giving an additional tum of 23,000,000 of dollars ; so that, out of a trade amounting to 43,000,000 dollars, scarcely 4,000,000 be longed to other than this country. In 1843 there was a remarkable increase in our trade with China contrasted with previous years, and in 1845 a still greater. But the Committee stated in the first page of their report, that that increase of trade had been attended with no corresponding benefit to England, inasmuch as it had been carried on at a loss of from 30 to 40 per cent. They found that, notwithstanding that loss, the trade had gone on increasing for three or four years. The ex planation was this: the trade was first iu the hands of thp British merchants, who, not finding it remunerative, abandoned it. Then it was taken up by the British ma nufacturers, in their anxiety to find an outlet for their increased produce. Their attempt being also unsuccess ful, it was taken up by the natives of China themselves, for the purpose of finding a market for their own pro duce, but they too found it unremuneratiee. It there fore followed that unless we were able to proceed in another direction, our trade with China must bo con tracted to those limits only which would prove remune rative. The returns for our merchandise were comprised in the three principal articles of silver, silk, and tea — the annual export of silver being 2,000,000/. The Bri tish Consul, writing in April, 1847, said, " how long the Chinese will be able to sustain this continual drain of 2,000,000/.- of precious metal, it is impossible to say; but it is a well-established fact that the ex port of tea to England cannot be increased under tla present system of duties ; and unless a new opening bs found for a larger amount of Chinese exports to our markets, a gradual reduction must telt." place either in the quantity or the prices of our goods in China. It is beyond calculation to what extent the Chinese would purchase cur woollens and cottons if we would take their produce in return." This was fully confirmed by Sir J. Davis, who said that the import trade of China depended wholly upon their export trade ; that conse quently the increase of their exports would create a corresponding increase in their imports. Now it was owing to the rate cf duties levied by us on tea which prevented our taking a larger quantity of that article — duties amounting on the average to upwards of 200 per cent. upon the cost price. He had been informed of a cheap tea having been purchased in Liverpool, and which ultimately went for the use of a poor-house in C irk, upon which the duty amounted to 1,000 per cent. on the price. But to the consumer it made a still greater difftrence than the mere amount of the duty, because the greater the duty the greater the capital re quired ; and as there must be a profit o ee n srs c e a y p et i ne t ul a l e l i ,u was s ee g t ' ah a ne s S. 2 a d . to w not s urprising tutrepor thatisi ng a duty to of ri 2 d addition to the consumer of 2s. 93. on the price of the teat So that, in a very large proportion of instances, the profit alone upon thaduty would exceed the cost of the tea. Let the House observe who were next to us in the trade—the Americans, who levied no duty upon tea, while we had a duty varying from '2OO to the exceptional cases of 1,000 per cent. 'The lion. Gentleman then quoted the commercial circular of Holmahed and Ketley, of Liverpool, dated Dec. 31, 1847, showing that, while our cotton trade with China bad decreased by about one third between 1837 and 1846, that of the United States had increased, and was still increasing. It was of iraT portance to watch with vigilance how far we could supplY the markets of' China in return for their exports. The Committee stated that the revenue we derived in 1846 of 5,110,0001. could not be permanently relied on, as the trade was not remunerative to the importer. In 1842 it barely exceeded 4,000,0001.; in 1843 it did not reach 4,500,000/.; and in 1847 he had reason to believe that it would barely reach 5,000,000/.; although in 1846 it had been upwards of that amount. Our exports of cotton cloths in 1844 was 1,460,0001.; in 1845, 1,540,000 1 .; and in 1846 they fell to 940,000., and in 1847 to 888,000/. Ho found, with regard to shipments of cotton cloth from Liverpool to China, in the year 1845, they had amounted to 112,000,000 yards; in 1846, they fell to 76,000,000 , yards; and in 1847 they had come down to 56,000,000 yards, being just one-half of what they had been in the year 1845. If such had been the case, it followed that this diminution of exports had led to a diminution of imports, and that consequently the revenue has dimi nished. Therefore it was that while the Committee had reported that so important an item of revenue could not be lightly dealt with, they reported that they had the strongest reason to believe that the then exist ing amount of revenue from this source could not per manently be expected. The Committee then had turned its attention to the consideration of what would be the effect of any change in the amount of duty; and on this point some statistics and calculations, which showel the changes in prices which had been e ffected by an a - teration of the duties in former times, bad been fur nished, and were to be found at p ige 443 of these reports. From these statistics it appeared that in 1782 the duty on tea was at the rate of 56 per cent , and at that time the number of pounds consumed . had been about 6,000,000. In 1784 the duty was reduced to 12/. 10s. per cent., and the quantity consumed rose to 10,000,0001 b. That duty continued up to 1795, when the consumption had risen to 21,000,0001 b. Ile somequoted t o for reason this purpose by a of showing judicious that change ther e existed inh t e existing duty, the cons um p tion would increase and the revenue thereby be kept U. As to the quantities of tea consumed, he found, i n the evidence taken before th e believe tthe that, Committee and annexed to their report, that in families where expense was not an object the average might be taken at 121 b. per head. In the workhouse it was 311 b. per head. To emigrants 41b. 3oz. per head was allowed. In the navy it was 41b. 4oz. per head, besides cocoa. In ,Australia there was reason to believe the consumption was exceedingly large, being at the rate of 81b. or 91b. • venue, it would in the end be made up by an in per head; while in the United Kingdom the average was creased consumption of tea.—(Hear, hear.) This was only about lib lez. per head, being about one half of wasnnot enly true of tea, but of other articles ; the the ordinary allowance granted in the workhouses. Those same argument had been applied to wine, and also to who wiah«l the duty to be reduced had contended that the t 'bacon ; and it was true of all articles on which a reduction ought to be from 25.2,-r e d. to to ls., and they stated high duty was imposed. As to the increased consump that if the same money now spent on tea should he tion of tea diminishing the consumption of spirits, spent when the duty was reduced to Is., that duty on he was not prepared to offer en opinion ; but he must 24,000,0001b5. weuld yield 1,200,000/., which, a dded to say that there was no article of which he would more the existing amount yielded to the revenue, viz , Gladly see the consumption reduced than of spirits, pro -1,200,0001., would give in the first year of the redtnnion vided the revenue was made up from other sources ' • and n 3,500,000/. from the article of a. But th e n if 32,000 isrobkbly an increased consumption of tea might have tons of sugar was taken as the additional supply need,- some influence in that respect. But he feared that if sary for the additional consumption of tea, taking that . any such reduction were made fresh taxes must of neces quantity at a duty of 145., it would yield about 455,0001., city be imposed to make up the immediate deficiency ; thus showing the total revenue to be expected from the for if, in the article of sugar, for instance, the increased tea and sugar to urnount to about 3,962,000/. Another consumption were set cif against the reduction of duty, point had been brought under the notic e o f t he Com - h e feared there would be, for some years, a considerable mittee, which, however, he (Mr. Cardwell) did not take loss. The Hon. Gentleman who had seconded this mo as the basis of any computation, because it would give a lion was in favour of an ad valorem duty on tea; but the result more sanguine than he should venture to en- Committee had recommended a uniform duty of a shil courage. It had, howeqr, been stated in evidence that ling a pound ; and he believed the advantages were in 1844 a change had taken place in the Isle of Man in decidedly on the side of a fixed uniform duty.—(Hear, the mode of collecting the duty there levied on ten, hear, and " Very low.") But it was quite impossible the effect of which had been (as the Committe e were to reduce the duty to anything like the amount recom told) to diminish the cost of that article by Is. 61. per mended by ; the Committee without risking some two lb. In 1844 the consumption there was 75,0001b5., and trillions of revenue ; and that was a risk not very in 1846, it had risen to 138,0001b5. White he (Mr. likely to be incurred just now. The Hon. Member for Cardwell) admitted that it would have been rash on the Liverpool had said that, on a former occasion, the dis part of the Committee to have made this the basis of tressed state of the country had been made the ground their computation of the profitable increase of con. for a considerable reduction of taxation ; but he should gumption in the whole of the United Kingdom, remember that that reduction had been accompanied by yet he was of opinion that he was bound not to close the the imposition of the income-tax. In like manner, if rasa without thus calling attention to the success in the they were now to re peal the window duty, from which operation of a change in the duty on the same article. 1,700,000/. was derived, of any other tax which brought But he might be asked where was the money—where in a considerable revenue, it could only be done by the the resources to come from which the population of this imposition of some other tax, which would yield at least country were to spend in sugar to be used with the in- us great an amount ; and whether the gentlemen who creased cons um pti o n of tea ? llis answer was, that if advocated these reductions would checriully submit to this country imported 24,000,0001h5. additional of ten an addition to the income-tax or to the property-tax he there would be an addition to the exports of 1,000.0001., very much doubted.—(Hear, and a laugh ) On this of which two-thirds would be spent in the wages of the subject it would be most improper in him to anticipate artisans of England, and this addition would go to their the statement which the Noble Lord at the head of the other means of purchasing tea and sugar. If, then, such Government would give in ten days' time respecting the a change stimulated industry, it would add to the im- general finances of the country. He should therefore ports and exports and increase the demand for other best discharge his duty by not saying another word on articles which constitute the comforts of th the part of this question which related to revenue. To working classes, and which contribute to the the motion of the Hon. Gentleman he had not the Treasury a revenue of which the Chancellor of the slightest objection.—(Hear.) Exchequer would feel the advantages. But then the Lord G. I3ENTINCK said the House had had some Committee had been teat b y some of the witnesses who little experience in the mode now proposed of improv had been examined (and the same objection had been ing the revenue, namely, by "removing the burdens frequently raised), that the supply of tea might be ex- from the springs of industry." In 1838 the postage had petted to fall short, and that art increased demand for been reduced to a penny ; and now, after a lapse of ten England might raise the price of the article in China ; years, the revenue from the Post.office, then 1,800,000/., and that the result would be that the value bein,g; thus was but half that amount.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. made higher here, the public would not have the benefit Member for Liverpool and his friends had taken off the of the reduction of duty. On that point, however, the duties from timber, cotton, corr, silk, and brandy, Committee had examined several witnesses at great thereby making a present of so much of our revenue to length, as would be seen by a reference to the report. foreign nations.—(Hear, hear.) lie (Lord G. Bentinck) They had had the advantage of examining Mr. Parkerevho had recommended, two years ago, that our relations had spent some time in China on a mission of a different with China should he cultivated. In the United States, character, and who was well acquainted with that with their 20,000,000 of inhabitants, only 19,900,000 country; they had also examined the Honourable las. of tea were annually consumed, although it was sub- Members for Ashburton, for South Lancashire (Mr. W. sect to no duty ; and the lion. Member for Liverpool Brown), and for Dartmouth (Mr. Moffatt), and many was therefore a little sanguine in caleelating the in others of great experience, and all these witnesses creased consumption of tea, with a reduction of Is. 2d. stated that they had not the slightest fear that any per lb. in the duty, at 22000,000 of pounds. two demand made by this country in China for the article 3eats ag,o, when everybody appeared to be free of tea would tend to cause anything like a scarcity trade mad, Mr. Glyn and the directors of the North of supply. O n the contrary, the Committee had Western Railway Company were induced to try the ex been told that though the, enormous population of China peril: cot of reducing their tariff ; and the consequence were themselves great consumers, and that as they was a reduction in the shareholders' dividends from 10 to would take commodities is hich this country could fur- S. per cent. ; while the Hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. rish, the small additional drain the change would cause Hudson) had strongly resisted the innovation on the could not possibly increase the price of tea, because the Midland line, and their dividends were still undi land was abundant, the facility of cultivation was great. inini-hed —(Hear, hear.) He could not support the Hon. Another matter had arisen before the Committee, about Member for Liverpool. which some little was said. On that matter the Corn Mr. MOFFATT thanked the Hon. Gentleman the mittee had the advantage of the presence of the lion. Member for Liverpool for the able and lucid manner in Member for Shefaleld (Mr. Parker), who watched the which he introduced this subject. He did not think the proceedings with a view to ascertain how far a dinainti- Noble Lord who had just spoken had succeeded in tion of the tea duties would injure the revenue, by lead- showing that a loss of revenue must necessarily follow ing to a diminution in the consumption of spirits. The from a reduction of duty. The Post office revenue was Honourable Member had moved for and obtained within five per cent. of what it was before the reduc e return, which showed that the population of the tion took place, great as that reduction was.—(Hear, United Kingdom, amounting to 26,700,000, con- hear.) He thought that as a matter of justice to the sumed annually 24,000,000 gallons cf spirits; and Chinese, and of expediency towards themselves, a re that in Scotland, in 1845, there were entered for .luction of the duties on tea ought to be made. He did home consumption, 6,500,000 gallons of spirits for not think with the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancel a population of 2,600,000. In fact, the consump- lor of the Exchequer) that there would be anything like a Lion of spirits in the e hole of the United Kingdom, toss of 2,000,0001. in the revenue.—(Hear, hear.) was shown to be 21,000,000 gallons. lie (Mr. Card Mr. W. BROWN said that he had investigated the well) did not know why the reduction of the tea duties question of the reduction of duties since 1667, and he would diminish the produce to the Exchequer of the found that up to the present time a reduction ;of duty duty on spirits; but with all respect for the Exchequer, had been followed by increased consumption. Tho he should certainly he pleased it, by a reduction of the vestion, then, was, how much the duty ought to be tea duties, those arising from spirits should fall cif, and reduoed, so that the revenue might not suffer? He in such an event he should be most ready to support the was of opinion that if there was a reduction of revenue Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Committee of Ways from a reduction of the duty on tea, it could be made and Means in imposing a duty almost upon any other up from other sources. For instance, he could not see commodity, to supply the deficiency in the spirit duties. any reason why the legacy duty which was paid on —(hear.) He begged now to ask whether the House personal property should not be paid likewise on real or the country was satisfied with the existing trade with property.—(Bear, hear.) When the Noble Lord spoke China? China had a population of 309,000.000, and of the consumption of tea in America as being only yet the trate of Great Britain with her had never cx 20,000,0001145. amongst a population of 20,000,000, he ceeded 2,000,000/. of annual exports. Why was that ? forgot to mention (what was most material) that Wes; it from the want of any sagacity on the part of 5 000,000 of that population did not consume any tea. the Chinese—was it from any want of commercial lie did not think that the revenue would ultimately principle among them? On the contrary, the Chinese suffer by a judicious reduction of the duties on tea, and nation was equally distinguished for its industry anti considering the effect which such a measure must pro the desire to turn that industry to the best account. lace in a moral point of view, he was of opinion that it Was it then that the Chinaman having strange notions was one which Government ought to adopt.—(Hear.) of civilisation and a peculiar contempt for the foreign Mr. MASTERMAN thought that great credit was barbarian, had raised seem, obstacles in the way of inter- due to the lion. Member for Liverpool for bringing this course between the two nations? Thera had been a day question under the notice of the House and the country. when apprehensions of that kind had been seriously ile was aware of the diflioulties attending an ad valorem entertained, and fif teen years ago it had been said that system of duties with respect to tea, but he thought that such practices would prevail, but in 1844 a treaty had it those difficulties could in any way be got over, that been concluded with them, by which British manufac- such a system would effect all that was desirable, namely, tures were imported by them at duties varying from 5 give the people the benefit of cheap tea, without injur to 10 per cent.--o that the obstacles to intercourse had mg the revenue. But if the Chancellor of the Exchequer not been created by the uncivilised, but by the civilised had any revenue to spare—(Laughter)—he could not —not by the barbarous, but by the retitled. By the evi- possibly select a more fitting article than tea on which dente of the British Cenaul, corroborated by the British to effect a reduction —(lean) Governor, there existed but one limit to the trade be- Mr. BROTHERTON thought there could be only tween the two nations, and that limit arose from ono opinion as to the propriety of reducing the duty, the amount of duty at which this country admitted provided the poor were to get the benefit of such a re- Chinese exports.- - (llear, hear.) From recent ac- duction. In the year 1815 the consumption of tea counts it appeared the Chinese had become apt on in this country was 19,000,0001b5., which the subject of reciprocal protection, and that although cost 0,500,000/. ; in 1846, the consumption was they were bound by treaty from charging higher rates 46,000,0001b5., which cost 3,000,0001., that was of duty than those he had stated at any port of import, to say they gave 500,000/. less for 46,000,0001b5. of tea still he believed that the Chinese exporter had been the in 1846 than they gave for 19,000,00011)s. in 1815. That medium of cotnmunication between the British tariff and showed a very great increase of consumption; and if the his own Government, and that though they could not duty was reduced Is. he thought it reasonable to expect lay on /3ritich goods any increase of duties at the port that the consumption would be doubled. That would of import, they had increased the transit and inland cause a reduction in the consumption of spirits, which he duties, making them available to their revenues, and he considered to be a great benefit. But if a reduction of feared that if this state of things long continued, the un duty were made, he was afraid it would increase the civilised Chinaman would be found to be an apt scholar price ie China, and that the merchant would increase in the school of prohibitory duties, and that a hostile the price at home, as in the case of coffee, and that the tariff would be established in China which this country profits would be divided between the Chinese and the would have no power to meet.—(Bear, hear.) Looking merchants, leaving the poor little or no benefit from the to the near approach of the financial statement, he (Mr re duction.—(Hear, hear.) If increased imports of tea Cardwell) had felt it due to the Committee and to their had the effect of cawing an exportation of British menu- Chairman (Lord Sandon, now the Earl of Harrowby), factures, that would be an advantage. He was afraid, whose mantle had in some degree fallen upon him, that however, that this would only increase the import of the report should not be permitted to slumber.— opium into China, which could not be too much depre (lleer, hear.) In conclusion, and as a matter of form, cated.—(llear, hear.) If the poor were to have the he begged to move for a return of the reports benefit of cheap tea, w hy not impose an ad valorem duty and correspondence received on the subject of duties from upon it ? the Governor and the Consul in China.—(hear, hear.) Dr. BOWRING said, that if his Honourable Friend Mr. EIVART seconded the motion, and said he waited had been a member of the Committee on this subject, ho with anxiety to learn what course her Majesty's Govern would be convinced that the imposition of an ad valorem utent intended to adopt both with the tea and the tobacco duty on teas was altogether impracticable.—(Hear, hear.) duties. The present tea duties grievously oppressed the Ft cm the extensive trade which this country almost poor of this country. While the rich man's tea was exclusively carried; on with China it would derive great about 100 per cent., that on the inferior kinds was ahem! idvantage from it reduction of the duty on teas. The 350 per cent. Mr. Pitt had not imposed the tea duties in reason why other countries failed in their operations 1796 with that Iview ; by means of an ad yalorem duty with China was, that there was no demand there for he almost exempted the inferior kinds of tea. The duty their home productions. His Honourable Friend was on coffee had been recently reduced from Is. to 4,1. per mistaken in supposing that the opium trade was paid for pound, and that on cocoa from Is. to 2(1.; the conse- in tea. On the contrary, there was no article which quence wits that the consumption of the former had in- was more readily paid for in sycve silver than opium. creased 500, of the latter 1,000 per cent.; while for a The Noble Lord was entirel y in error in saying that long period the consumption of tea had only increased there was any smuggling of tea from the Isle of Dian. 130 per cent. In Guernsey and other places the annual T h ey ou g ht to follow the example set thene_bay ina consumption of tea was abut four pounds per head itself in adopting a l ow s y stem of tariffs.—(ll e a n) great —a proof of how great an increase in the con- Mr. Alderman SIDNEY thong h e t t t t o h e tl r i e e e w x as pected in gumption might be anticipated from a reduction in the fal l acy in the argument with re.. sp duty. The time was come when these duties must be crea se in the consumption of te a f e rom areduction of the considered, and when a comprehensive view ought to be duty. In 1801 t h e c onsumption per head was lib. 3 0z., taken of the Excise duties. There should ho a general the average priceprice of tea was was not more than one-third of being then 4s. to ss. per lb. In 1846, revision of our whole taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He was h in isol, the consumption per head was only prepared to throw a larger burden on accumula ted p ro- Ic‘lhb.aeltTlOindustryitct)z".e'as —(Hear, hear.) Li a commercial point of a party, but not on incomes.—(Hear, hear.) The result visa, m I t e e xt eat o an 2 in 4 increasewouldthere was oO in lb th s. e , eo th n e w ould thus be strengthened.—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that quantity consumed per head would be 21bs. 7oz. Now lass,apology was necessary from the Hon. Gentleman op. nc believed they must live for half a century before the a peeite for introducing this subject. At the same time he people of this country could be persuaded to consume tea r ought not to argue too strongly on the present depressed to that amount.----(llear.) state of the trade with China ; for his own statements Mr. WILSON said that the increase of consumption sufficiently accounted for it. On the opening of the was expected to arise from the demands of the peer, and trade, the merchants had eagerly engaged in it, and not from the rich, to whom price was not an object. after carrying it on for a short time had found it a In Ireland particularly a large increase of consumption very losing concern. That was almost universally might be expected. lie believed that a mode might be the case on the opening of any new trade. It hat devised fur reducing the duty without diminishing the been notoriously the case on the opening of revenue. In 1846 the consumption of tea was the trade with the States of ,South America. The 46,700,0001b5. In 1847, in consequence of ma.nufacture whole mercantile world at once engaged in it, a n d ing distress, the consumption had fallen to 45 , 500 , 0001 b5. the South Am erican markets were consequently and in 1848 he did not think the Chancellor of the glutted. The same had occurred with China. Many Exchequer could calculate on a greater consumption merchants had consequently found the trade a. losing than 44,000,000ib5. This showed that there was an concern, and had given it up. In the same way the increase or decrease of consumption according to the manufacturers had suffered, and had Lean deterred from prosperity of the country. In 1831 the consumption sendirg more of their fabrics to that market. The fact was 31,000,00011 m, the price being 10d. higher than it was, the Chinese markets had been glutted in the first was last year. Under that reduction of price there was instance with the quantity of manufactured goods sent an increased consumption of 15,000,0001b5e and it from this country; and however lamentable might be seemed that this increase had gone on paripassu with a the check which the trade had suffered, it was the natu- reduction of price. Now he did not believe that . an ral result of the excessive exports in the first instance. en'ire abolition of these duties was necessary or , esira- He considered that more stress had been laid on the ble in the first instance. He believed, howevfr, that a diminution et the importations of China in one particu- reduction from 2s. 20. toes. 6d. might be m_aecle without lar year than was right, looking at the permanent state any falling profit. ve e off even in th g e first d ”s„r ith Liast.ihrewa tr ad e average of the trade in that country. In 1843, there was an by those practically s t :o;d 4a. tu ' as th a e f poor was a addition of about half a million to the imports, which thist the largest portion cf ae "t u e an a tadedwe with to f i a t ir l had increased from a million sterling in the preceding ea sold at 4s. a lb. If they tools 6d. duty, year, to about a million and a half. In 1844, they price of this tea in bond, an increased to 2,300,0001.; and, in 1845, to nearly the tea might be sold at 3s. a lb. i p y e spent at o omoo present, w o o h u e 2,400,000 e ; _ more t h an d ou bl e the amount of 1842. culating that the same. amount a of money would be spent prices s sale s w of as OD S It was hardly likely that all this would be taken in tea under those off at once; and if, in the subsequent year, there found that an inc f re n a e s d l increased l amount received had b een a considerable falling ff under this give a revenue beo adch a d r nearly four millions and a half, to head, it was only what might have been expected from tehhre Bill"d au was to on the additio e na sugar consumed. To the previous experience. With regard to the general trade nor es . f . 1846 he thought the reduction of the tea he concurred in almost every position which the Hon. a SUga ought to be considered a necessary complement. Member for Liverpool had laid down.—(llcar.) He bud duties HDSON Mr. a was very glad to find that the Chancellor net the leastdoubt that, by diminishing the duty on te.a, of the the consumption would be greatly extended, and that, in Exchequer was not to be seduced by this sort of spe• course of time,' the revenue lost by lowering, the duty culative argument, He was glad he had at last found out would be made up. Again, he had n ot the least d ou bt that a reducti on o f d ut y wa s not always followed by that the quantity of goods sent to C hina must entirely an incr( ased consumption, or a decrease .. of price. He depend on the returns which co uld be obtained from w•as also glad to find the Member for Salford retracting b y a d m i tt ing tea at , a . low rate of his free trade principles.—("Hear, hear," from the that country, and that, duty, our exports to China would be as- country party.) It was a satisfactory indication that considerably principles were not so popular among the tended, to the manifest benefit of the c onsumers, manu manu facturers, and ship-owners of this country ; also, that lecturers as they were once supposed to be. As that be entailed 011 the re- lion. Member truly said, the profit arising from these though considerable loss Might 1 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111.111.111111.1.111111111111111111111111.1111.111111.1.1.11.11111111111.1111111.111111111m"."11111111.11". T 11E SUN - LONDON FRIDAY EVENING FEBRUARY 11, 1848, - • . 9 % . . destroyed by th e ir l ong illness. There were several We believe that in Leeds and several other forge towns, duce it into one of the supplemental Bills, and he was able or convenient to the nastY turtle-eating Ccrporation. •had hardly any Sowers, tend until lately sca r ce ly a w a s ' excee di ng l y persons t wo h ous es of the same terrace, and doubt- the sectional boards, tenacious of life, opposo thig Mire that if the Noble Lord did so, the public were Pre- —(Laugbter.)—Why did not her Mojerty's atir-closet, • 'which abounded in ces s pools; could p er h en d ; . whi l e less from the same cause." transfer of their present linalted powers; but common pared to give hi m t h at a id w hi c h wou ld overcome all resist the soup influence?—(lleor, hear.) Why should hardly be called perfect, and was certainly not exactly only about Ilb I . He h.; n bstained from making an allusion to the sense dictates that in Sheffield and all other incorporatetl difficulty. If it were a evestion of money, of clergy that influence be allowed to prevail rgainst any measure to be held up 2s a copy to be followed by us. But, in the ordin t ry t w o , • - - - t h r , only b o dy to whom men's fees, so strong was the public feeling upon it, calculated to benefit the community? Then, with re- Feet, radon condAion of Paris was vastly worse than that who wish( d th e d r-ee. e T"-- - - ~gra trt the important question of intramural inter. ofl4' :. As to the sur , estion regarding the estab- reductionoughtt, .1.1 ei,.. ;e 1