The Sun. — London, England, 1816-05-25 00:00:00

ers wished for suet .an appointment, as they tiniuu hey tberaselve . s had t o controul. (wer the principal Wilco-3 of the 1-10useliold. ilow lung Ihe poWer 'ot the .tiew .oflicer wOnhl last he ; knew not, lintliesopposed he ujotthl suon„ only h.e known to the H ou se by his. nouns! applica "ou for MO. and that mutters would go o n as before.. He did no t like these new inOdellings of the Civil List, Ile wished the Crown to 6e supported with all suitable sPlettllonr, but what-. ever stun was allotied .to it ought to be made to 19ffice. The Crown ought 'to live, within the ~' come assigned to it, and ought not, without Stine Very potent reasons, to call On Parliament for extra aids; and in no else till after those funds, : exclusively its Own, had been exhausted. He now clone Co the wain propositiOn which he had to "bmit to the House. lhi object Was to persuade ,the House not to agree to make any provision for fature excesses on the Civil List, till all the means bclonging exclusively to the Crown should be come exhausted. If, for instance, there should be an excess On the expenditure of one hundred thousand pounds, while there was the stint of 100,0001. at 'the - tot - Oman(' of the Sovereign, in , Admiralty Droits, ,he would not consent that one shilling should be advanced from Parliament, tiil the fend just referred to hail, been applied to the service of the Civil List. He.,Meaut utterly to deny the Crown the right ofappitaling tO the li berality of Pat!lament. to discharge Memo brances till it bid availed itself of mall its oWnas,- sets (if {semi& be allowed the expression) for that , purpose, so far as they Nvoultl go. He supnosed ho should be told he ought not to repine at the Oroils ot Admiralty being left at the disposal of` the Crown, as the first use made of them would be to: apply them to the service of the Civil List. — Ile •isould be glad to hear this assertion from ;lie Noble Lord, though he should out be satisfied with it, for he must ever contend this was that Avhich should not be left to the Sovereign, but ought to be determined by Parliament. If a new bargain were to be made with the Crown, new terms might be demanded. The King had under taken early in his reign to meet all the expellees' of the Civil List for the fixed income of 800,0001. and now, after a number of years had - elapsed, be found lie could nut do it Why then, it an ap peal was matte to Parliament, under such cir cumstances, they had a right to make new terms. if, the fixed income grantee; was nut sufficient, he might say, " it I grant you more, when you Cali upon me to assi s t you with ten pounds which yoe may want, you shall give me the six or seven pounds in your own keeping towards mak ing ,ap the MU you demand." To shew the resources of the Crown, he referred to an tiFtier , issued by the Treasury for the sum of 277,0001. prom 110* it appeared, that in pause 'pence of the death of a Mr. Troutback, without heirs, the suns of 80,0001. tell to the Crown. But .for those excesses which caused the Order referred tti, it was •probable nothing would have been beard of this Mr. Trolit hack , or of the eighty thousand pounds whiell iu conseltience became the property of the Crown. Nothing s would have been known of this but for the order issued by thi Lords of the Treasury for selling his Stock. To pay what remained of the suns he had men tioned, 100,0001. had been ordered to be issued out of the Admiralty Molts. The sum of 270;0001. bad thus been supplied, and 70001. remained to be made good. An order for a grant of 20,0001. net ot the Admiralty DrOits bad recently beets metle to defray the expences of bonding it private residence for his Royal Highness the Priuce Re gent ; rind 50,0001. bad been taken front the saute Mimi, not :1416.661)11101m Pavilion at Brighton, bait for furnishing an additional building. But as. stirnlttg-60,0001..ftir furniture might be deducted, the 20,0001. issued for time building, and the 70001. m4,111411;111 Matte up 277,0001. which be had hetore referred to, left at all events a balance of 27,0001. tri be made good by somebody. This, however, was not all. Since he Mid addtessed the House on this subject, time art:1,111os for time quarter, end log April lith, had bream hid before the House. — ..From .this it appeared that to the 27,0001. just Inebtioned, the satin of 141 POI. was to be added; the expentlituoe or-the last : quarter hating exceed ed by that sum time estitnete of the Noble Lord. These together left a sum of 168,0001. to be made good by Parlament. While it was known that sod, a . thirge would be brought before Parlia ment, the Treasury had sa'.ictioned the applica tion of sums.fro,: she Admit - ally Draits for nur,- poses ontoonected with time publieservice,to nearly 111411 the amount. 'They givea for ilbe private expenditure of the Prince Regent the sum of .70,0001. which might have been reserved to wards toeet ingsthe 168,0001. which remained to be nut,de goost. The 70,0001. wits :toiled to the bur. delve of -the public corsrevieilee of that sum beving.been expended .vhere am ought trot to have been I.mid unit, and this had been sanctioned by Ministers, when they knew there Was a deficiency ot 141,0001. to be laid before she House on the Civil List Estimate, as compared w: h its eXpen. rliture in the last quarter. IL,: estimate of the , Civil List expenditure for the year was 1391)001. The expenditure in the last quarter, ending April amounted .to 41.5,0061. It would be seen runs this, that, taking the last quarter to give the • ,average of rise four quarters of the 'year, instead -of an estpuw..nttre of 1,339,0001, we shoiml f have to meet nne of 1,004,0001. for the service of the 001 List. Excesses, it would be seen,' were . again in progress, tool these he doubted not would 'continue to accumuhne from -time to thne, as 4ieretofore. The Noble Lind, he expected, would enaravour to show that the excess now mentioned ',arose from particular eirthitusta flees; but these par. titular eirentnitances constantly ocourred in every year. Ne did 'not like Ale estimates sof the Noble Lord, as lie knew not by whom they had been ex.' 'utilised. tut be found the new Gentleman who 'was to be appointed to controls% the Civil List, \vas to have powers to send for " persons, papers, 'and records f " isthich powers had several times ;been refused to Committees of that House. lk 2 11 01 no doubt the powers in question were to lie given to the new Officer, because Ministers found u , R ecessary that such -should be entrusted t soi l o to d y If they were of this opinion, let souse 05 'dime Gstutkiugn who had agar'- miserly opposed Isis Motions for giving those lioxcers to Committees, snake out' a case to ;11CW why, as they were given to somebody, thAt.lit).l s e VCR,. to be excluded from 4line some __ lidies., In. an answer to bin, cnr. T.). it, hril bee , ' nrftcd that the dignity or thq Crown vouill not brook the inquily he had , reedinineudeu, ,but now it should .seen, eon! be endul.td, when new or,vr=-41 (kUttlem , lo- ,)v.. of ti,e Michel), (for so he snould he 'caned) .as appointed.. He reinemb , .7 , -ul. the elafter 'foroncrly _made about, a pronqsitb 0. originated hy "2 0 1 . 4- Burke, who had been said to have tkttacke , ; the 'rise same thing was now: lbont to be done ; for this new Gentlempn, wyn i ld have power to examine the King's Tnrnsp'ir if hst , pleased nit twitters touching the Civil The Bin which had been brought in was by no means satisfactory to ; but nevertheless he wished. to melts the best of it4 and would therefore move au atnendmeot to one of its clauses. He then flayed,. to one : pf the clauses of the Bill, which sets forth that the ordinary revenues of the Civil List have been fpr many years iliadiltiate to the charges on it, and declares it expedient to equalhe them, an fittleutP. ment; iu substance providing, that no ,pilditiboal grant should be made in aid of it for the time to come, till it we's shewn that the fends exclusively at the disposal, pf the Crown were exhausted. Lord CASTLEARAGIt thought nothing more ens tellable in argement,;than the assumption that .the 'Growl' ought to be able to meet an miliMited peinliture with a fixed, incoine. ht , was enough to call the attention of the. House to the fact, that the occerrenees of the War, and our,copnections with the Continent, bad caused in ode Steer suelt fluctuations, as had raised the expenditore of one department of the Civil List from ,tt^oo,oool. to 400,0001. How could a Rallied income 'he made 010 to such changes, unless the Crown ,were at some periods notch richer ,then:it .need to, be ? The appointment of the new officer he stated to haye been recommended in the strongest inaimer 4:the Committee appointed to investigate the business.,, They had }fives) it . as their solemn and 'deliberate opinion, that nothing could so effectually remedy the evil complained or, as - an early audit of fife Civil Li3t accounts, and they knew of ,flit, mode in which ;this could so well he accomplished . as ,by the appointment of a new officer. The Right Honourable Gentleman' thought fit to assume that this Officer would cost the country a large sum, and that no benefit would be derived from his appointaent. He (Lord Cas tlereagh) had to state , t,yil-a foundation hid been laid fur an economical arranitethent connected with the new appointment, which he trusted would be satisfactory, to the Hotse. It .was intvtitled to mate it gradital reduction in thOse offices of the Household, that could conveniently be put an end to. His Royal Highness the,Prince RegeUt had been pleased to direct that 12 offices in the de partmeet of the Lord Chamberlain should not be filled up when they again fell vacant, and a stint lar intimation had been given with respect to the Lord Steward's department. A saving %void thus be effected of 3,0001. or 4,0001. In the. one, and of 5,0001. or 6,0001. in the others, and not less than 60 offices in the two'might be considered to 1114%'e been suppressed. .The Right Hoe. Gentle man bad been, pleased to consider the estimate he (Lord Cestlereagli) had. brought forward to have been falsified by the account of the expenditure of the Civil List in the last quarter. '1 he excess in that quarter, he' contended, did not justify sleek an . ietereuce. It arose front particular 'circum stinees connected with the winding np ot the war, which were not likely to again occur, and did not prove, or even maks it probable, that the estimate had been founded in error, He thought the course which the Right Hoe. Gentleman wished to be taken with respect to the Civil List, would place tile Crown less 'under the cOntroul of Parliament than it Won't! he placed by the Bill which he had introduced. The Right Hon. Gentleman had con tended that the House had a right to make new. terms with the Crown, as a new bargain was about to be made with it. The House, however, ought not ' 0 do that which would interfere with the business of the EiecutiveGovernment. The Crown, under the Prize Act, always tnok 'upon itself, hi conjoint operations, to decide on the grants in be made to captors, and the whole of this part of the public: WiltilieSS must necessarily stand still lithe Hotise should adopt ihe proposi tion of the'Right lion. Cieot. He was sure it could not be the wish of the House to do this. I o saying this s itedidnot meant° srgee that the Droitstshould not be made instrumental to - bear the expences of this department of the public service 1111 it hind' hi therto done. The present was not efpiestitin of principle, hot of execution and' provision. He thought the filen of the 'light Hots. Aveut to .give the Crown a power over the public purse. WhiCli lie (Lord Castlereagh) conitinever consent should be given. The Bill brought in did not give the Sovereign any undue power. If any %Willie application should be made to Parliament tinder it, that House would always have the re medy in its own hands, and ' need nut grant a single shilling if a satisfactory case were not made out. It had been in contemplation -to grant a suet on account, but this Ministers would not call for, but upon estimate, and upon their re sponsibility. Upon time whole this WOlll4l give the House a greater practical oontronl over the Civil List than U had heretofore possessed. The casual revel - sues of the Crown would come inure frequently under the jealous eye of Parlia ment than they had ever done before, and foe the whole of the 255,0001. of which it was now proposed to the Civil List, Ministers would be obliged to come to Parliament wit's their Estimatei, when any thing that the Home might think unnecessary could be witbdraWn, and fur these they would he as responoible as for any other grant they might demand. The his , tory of time Droioi lie would *Heinlein, furnish. ' eti mulling that could juttify that jealousy and those reptoaches which the Right Hon. Gentlemen was of upiimiuu it ought to call lerth. lu proof of this assertion lie would state in what way the DroitS had heed diseosed ot, sloce the accession , of his Majesty to aren't-011e, deducting front the account the sums -paid to captors, which ha was satisfied the Hattie would pee with him, ought strut to be 44Veti iii 41uestlutt. Out of the reeidoe, in the disposal of which any abuse that had taken place (if there had been any) must have occurred. There had been extended, ,91 the PO lour Civil pot purposes.. F lit this last mast there bad beta granted W the ign'or .I)rAncles. V3Mily .191,0001. Aw l which sum above 1 . 00,000 i. h,id bcen grant" vq.wisile that Administrutinn _was in .powvr.,, Uf iyhiph the ',tight 'lnn. Glentletnan wai.a Niember„ tboncit : he (Lon! - castleretjgit) did, not bring,thii forwnrti beiny.at all, discretlitoble to that Go- . . ,rernmen7.:. lie.obleeteti to the plan of Abe fit, ght .I-Imourable Gentleman as tending to transfer the exercise of the fone(ions of the,Sovereigu,to that ,House, by which the whole coitrse of,oprjuris prudence .pontiected with the Adinitalty,.Thoits must .. ., be pnralyed. defended the , expellees incurred ti fitting op a resi.clence far tile Prince*Re gent at Brighton,. and declared,' had t tllis no.t n moth larger sum must, have been expended fitting upsotne oftheptiblicpalaces fur his recep tign!.. Itoyal highness he st flied tohave expend ed lage slims out of, the i/rivy Purse s , to prepare ,for himself a suitable residence, which, had he not Anne, most I,lave been provided for him at the expence of the pnblie,, anti he believed his Royal ,Highness ttie only individual in Carope, in so eitalted'a'aratfon;,wlm lived tylien 41 the coati, - _ , try in a boast of his own. ;(A laugh.) The ,Noble / f ord briefly recapitulated the substance of ,his principal arguments. against, the motion of tbe IU - 0a Hon. Gentleman, and contended the House world have a. greater ,jurlsdietion over the Civil List, 'under the 11i11, as it•at.Present stood, than it would have if the amendment were:tulopted.--;-, If, according to the advice of the, Right Hqn. gentleman, the House had proceeded to new model. the revenue of, .tht Crown, end to Osave *giveu it 1,300,0001. a year. in .the hove been absolutely impracticable. withont de ranging the whole of that part of the constitution. 13itt as to th'ptinciple of the Right HOrt. I.3entle -1111.11, on which Ire professed to ground kis amend,. meat, he could not, bat agree to. it : . hut farther then the mere admission of the principle he conld! not go * . ,He would therefore, upon the whole, give his negative to the aMendment. , • Mr.Ttettt4s 4 t said he never proposed to talte out of the Gt own the whole management of the Droits of. the Admiralty, All the part 'of file Droits which he wished to be applied to the public ser vice ,was what should remain after satisfying the necettnitir private expence of Crota u. Mr. PONSONBY was very much surprisechhat the Noble Lord should have been so far mistaken as to take Ilium himself to say,' that the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend would go to arrest the march (as Atte • Noble Lord expressed it) of the system of political jurisprudence of the country. — The Noble Lord Ares , pleased to Tiring forward opiniona.which be imputed .to his Right Hon. tiend, slid then attempted to prove that those opinions were erroneous. But he would ask what the Opinion of his Right Honourable Friend had to do with the question before the. House. The Simple question was, whether the House should de terhilhe 'nuke the Civil List 61 present of 220,00U1.' and throw the burden of that sum on the publie--- This wt's the whole question, this was the nitut ob itct.ofthe.l44ll now before the !louse. Not with standing all the explanations of the Noble Lord, and all the documents to which he had referred to explain the way in which the ditteren't sums had been expended, he was convinced that there WAS much improptiety in the expenditure of a great. ,past of thy- money. The whole object •ot his' Right Hon. Friend's motion was to get the eon trout of the money into the hands of Parliament, and as the Noble Lord bad said, that he agreed in the principle, he wished the Noble Lard would frame the motion in any way according to this principle, and they woul►i,rea►lily agree to it. It was quite monstrous to th►nk whit sums had been granted in aid of the CI% il List. Tiiis was a goes lion. Which _above all affected the honour and nue. grihy of the House : in the eyes of the people. if ever there was a ;salon that required relief, it was the. United gingdoM. Was this then a time-for the Representatives_ of that peopte,•.fur the pnr pose of gratifying the Crown or the Nlittisters, to saddle the people when there was a means of pro viding for the wants of tho Crown otherwise And if the House was persuaded to vote for such as arrangement as OM proposed by the Noble Lord, they would do more to disgr►ce themselves in the eyes of the nation than they could do in any onset way. HusKlSsoN'said, that the Right Hon. (len ticular' had Made nut no cue to the House in anp, port of his amendment,. for , he said not one Word that went to prove, that it would be better not to , leave the disetet:ou respecting the sums in - qties-:: tion in the Crown. Unless the Right lion. Gene tlernan was prepared to argue, that the House of. Commune had given upall its functions, .by grant ing in!niey without inquiry or examination, the -ground which he had taken up hi Ids argument was quite untenable. M to the amount of the sums granted to the CiNil,List, the question was, whether any thinghad been unnecessarily granted —had not . even the tradesineWs, bills seen Itud before the Uouse /."-(flear, hear would wise to call the attention of the House to what the expences in the fourth and titth classes of the I Civil List bad been in: the year ending sth July, 1163. In the fouilb class the amount 111 thin year was '276;0041. , whereat the expellee o>a the same dos, this year, was only 234,0001. - The average of..the 'mount for the same class, for the eight years following 1753, was 234,7521. per annum. The atittiunt Of the sth class tot the eight years following 1753 was 110,0001, per , tinnum, whereas n ow it was proposed :to,fix it tit 125.0001:a.year: During the last year of the reign of his late Ma jesty, the anioant of tbeA.xpeitce of the 4th class was 2.2 . 5.0001, and . of the 6th clan 106,0004. (Hear, hear, hear !) Yet these. being the facti„ the Hon. Gentlemen :opposite endeavOtired to create a most unfounded impression that thee*, -pante* of the Crown had increased, when the fact was that there was a diminution. tHear, bear 1) The arguments of the Mu. Gentlemen opposite were equally unfounded, as applied, to the AMOutit of s-unntrequirett to rpm the epettees of foreign Embassies. On the whole, therefore, he should most decidedly vote against the Amend. meat. Sir P. Ilttantrr said, it was impossible to fol.. low. the Right Hon. (ieniletstati in. tlie details which be had introduced respecting foimer times, units% the House were minutely netittaiiiteti ec ith all the partieithir eireninstanets of those times» As to all ;list hall -tofu huid about eeditorriy., sio• tbittt- further 'than this aced be saki that the result had altrais been (resit demands upon the people. The droits of the Admiralty he thought were %try much Ausett; he nieant the right ustu.med by the t;rovro to,seize the property of feign mid friend ly merchants %yip have been shut out of the Liugdo.m, during pciee, by a most imconstitutionitt proceeding whiclk.was quite contrary to Magna Chatia— M to the Amendment, he thought its ,Only.fault, wAs that it was too moderate; how ever, be woulcl,vote In favour of it. Mr. ,Husatsion and Sir F. BURDETT mutually explained.- Air. C. LONG ,was very much surinised at the nature, e 4 they ameniment moved by his Right Hon. Friend opposite, .It bad often been s tor tone to have conversations Wicli him on the subject of the Civil List, and certainly they generally dif fered very mneh . in their sentiments with respect to,.it. ~But if there waCany One principle with !T -weet to it ob.:which they %reek it certainly was on the principle of; the present Bill. indeed the enactmepis of the Bill now before the House pro vided exactly for . the arrangements . which the .Right. Hon. Gentleman,,Wisted to be adopted. He was, therefore very. much at. aloss.t a know front what.motive.the Right Hon. Gentleman oppond. the 13111, unless, it was from a spirit of oppositio.t so inveterate that .aft soon as the Right Hon. Gen tleman fonmk,those . sentiments adopted which he himself at ,pire, tinie approved; ,he' immediately abandoned Om, and thought it necessary that . he should -oppose the measures of Ministers at all events., ; .The Amendment he thought hail been by t►n'nleans,supportetl by argument, and wasitioite unnecessary, as .by the Bill the controul Of ear , . !lament. over the funa' in question was complete. Sir - F.,150 noRT2. explained. After a few words against the Amendment front Mr. STPEUE* BOURNE, and a short explanatitoi from, Mr. TIERNEY, the House divided on the Amendnient• 11C • Noes .. . .... • ' % .30 Majority in revalue' the Dill The Report: -was then agreed to, and the Bill ordered to•be read rs third time. The Report of the Parish Bill %s as brought up Up and agreed to. The Cif ANCEI.L4R:of the Excit itaUtiß postponed the Committee on the Agricultural Hurscs L iil 4tl Th u rstla y Lord Mil'ioN said, that he understood the exemptions on aceonnt of chihlren, matte under the assessed taXta Were to be taken away by a WU which was to be brought into the House. Flo wished 19 know whether this was the ease, tot persons won't! their find,tfiemselvei obliged to pay , mire that! when the rropertY exiSted• • The CiIANCELLOR of the ExcnEtautitt that it was perfeetlytrue that there was welanse iii tbitt Bill on assessed taxes, to . repeal the exactions mute whets the: Property Titic wits paid 3 but perr sonswottlii then only be pin on the same f 00064 us helot e my Property - rto, was laid. The Report of the Jail. Lees Abolition Bill was reevived, anti the Bill ordered to be read a tbila time on Nionday next. The Porter Colouring Bill Was read. a second time, and ordered to becomniitted on :\looday. The Honce . having resolred Ascii into a COta enitree of Supply, The CIIANCELLOR 'Of the Eltcneatita moved, that the sum:of sbc be,grairted to bis M ajesty for Exchequer Bills. MN FITZGRALD Moved, flint n SUM of 22;1001, he eianten for the Royal Conti in i re . hind. The Resolio , ons were agreed to. Report on Monday. The House then went into a Com mittee of Ways and heath. Mr, LUSHINGTON moved the usual Resolution, respecting Lotteries, 'the Resolution was agreed to, and the Report ordered to he reeriVed on Monday. The Farming Stock Bill went through a Com. mittte: Report on Mondiy. The House Went into a Committee on the Salt Acts, when Mr. -Lustitturrow proposed several. Resolutions, which were agreed to. Report on." Monday. ,The House- went into a' Committee on the Acts respecting the National Debt. Report on Mon day, The Criminal Lunatics Bill was read a 3(1 Mr. V. FrriouttaLp obtained leave to bring In it 11111 to continue - the ReStrictious on Cash rayments„ AdjOurned at 'Half-Oast One this Morning... LAW INTELLIGENCE. COWtT OF KENOS ISENCII, tfAv 04. 7"I1S Ii lei, or rostraeT V. T lta Tow t::sI t r Or Wit Writ; This NVI att appeal aping!, lit rate imposed by the Sefsions of the Tmitts.hip of Wreth, uu certi t h 4 pigs of v:ve'd by !Li: Earl of Pomfret iri part eta rot mitre„;.: le'lksetrby hint to Messrs. ,Anderson nod Co, 'Fiji gt (mod of appeal was, that the receiving the rent in a Manufactured, form did not cdristimte such an occupation as sub • jected the rent to the operation of the Poor LAWS* The Court this day gave juriginent in fevour of the appellant, thereby quashing the order of Bt:s -slant tor the rate. , KIN* V. BAVIL Gt)QA• Mr. Justice BAYLEY rtol u the iudgment of ;he Court against .this defendant, who, it will, be recollected, was convicted at the last Warwick shire Assizes, upon two informations for deliver ing out fraudulent tickets for the collection of the House, Window and other Assessed Taxes, to several inhabitants of the City of COVelitry • The Learned Judge, -after eornmeuting upon the cit.• cinustances ot , the cases proved against hint, sett* traced hint upon each conviction to six months' imprisonment In enivotry Gaol ; but on the tug? gentian of the Attorney-General, who stated that the defendant's on was gaoler of that prison, the place of his imprisonment was altered to Derby gaol t and he was accordingly committed to the custody of Marshal of this Court, ill UV:Malt/1i of his sentence. FlRP.—Yestertiay rnoriliog, 4t hee4k day, a fire broke our in the house ut Mr. Pestee, No LI, Everott.street, Brunswick-m(00m. Mach) btiore it Wu i got under, destroyed it plot part of the Liuuso ttud foruitutt.