The Sun. — London, England, 1848-08-10 00:00:00

.01411 and what were those which it wished to modify. The general subject involved much debateable matter ; but a great deal of that had been cleared away by previous discussions. The amount of force employed in the navy for the present year had, for instance, been decided by a vote of the House, and which was of course the rule of the Ad miralty,- and the Hon. Member for Montrose even would admit that it was of no utility, now that that point had been so decided, to go over the same ground again o n, 5 e present occasion. Under the votes 1, 2, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 18 of the estimates, there was a saving of 200,000/. The reduction on vote 1, was in the wages of seamen and ma rines ; that in No. 2, was in provisions for the navy ; that in No. 3, was in the Admiralty-office ; that under No. 8, was in the wages of men and artificers employed in dockyards; that in No. 10, was on navy contracts for stores ; that in No. 11, was in new works, improvements, and repairs; that in No. 13, was en the miscellaneous items ; and that on Nos. 14, 15, and 16,•was on the half-pay and retired allowance of officers' pensions and allowances; that on No. 18, was freight on ac count of the Home Department- The total amount of reduc tion proposed to be made for the year was 208,0001., which left the estimates in this position. The increase of the pre sent year over the last was 214,6441. on the gross votes. The aunt proposed to be reduced—namely, 208,0004 de ducted from this, brought down the increase of the esti mates this year over the last to 6,644/. If the net votes were taken, however, it would be found that there was a reduc tion of 43,0001. on the estimates of 1848-49, as compared with those of 1847-48. Circumstances, he (Mr. W ) admitted, had changed since these estimates were framed. Parliament had in that time considered the whole subject ; and it was satisfied with the progress that had been made in providing fur the naval defences of the country since 1843. It was the duty of the naval department of the public ser vice to combine economy with efficiency; and that duty he was; he hoped, in a position to prove had been per formed by the Admiralty. The Committee, at page 9of their report, admitted that economy was not dependent on the number of men, and there still remained room for the application of well-considered retrenchments. The first recommendation of the Committee was the re vision , of the force employed on the foreign and home stations. The number of men on the foreign stations was about 7,000, on the :home station about 5,000; but it was impossible to state accurately the number, in consequence of the varying circumstances. Indeed, as the Committee stated, " the expenditure for the effective services of the army, navy, and ordnance, must in a great measure depend tpon the amount of force which the advisers of the Crown nay consider necessary. A satisfactory decision upon this übject could only be formed after a careful and deliberate arvey of the position of the country in regard to its inter alresources, its external interests, the state of its foreign elations, its political obligations, and the maintenance and fulfilment of all the various rights and duties which belong to the extensive and long-established dominion of the Bri tish empire." - The Admiralty concurred in that opinion. They admitted upon the whole the statement of the Com mittee in page 13, though they did not admit all the facts on which, it was founded, when the report alleged " that whatever cause might have led to the increase of force upon any particular station, when once the force had been augmented, there was too frequently some unfortu nate hindrance to its subsequent reduction ;" and that " when the enemy was defeated and hostilities were at an end, other duties were found for the ships em ployed, and the force which was required for the contin gency of a war remained as the permanent establishment in time of peace." There is no doubt that duties for ships of war grew in presence of the means for perform ing them. Every diplomatic agent asked for a ship of war iu case of any disturbance when ships were in his neighbourhood, and it was exceedingly difficult to break through the custom that had obtained of granting the assist ance in such cases required. The principal foreign naval stations were the Pacific, the Indian Seas, and the Cape of Good Hope. On all these stations, however, the amount of the naval foree of the country had been considerably dimi nished this year. For instance, in the East Indies and China, where 'there were in 1843 no less than 36 ships of war, there were now only 25. The number of ships on this station was in 1844 ... 26 ships. 1845 1846 ... 25 1847 ... 28 Of these now afloat in those waters, none were ordered home. In the Pacific, there were in 1845 ••• 1846 1847 ••• 1848 ••• There were at this moment only seven, and two surveying vessels, in that quarter. At the (Jape of Good Hope the num bers were— 1847 ships. 1848 The Rosamond and Devastation were ordered home. The Admiralty, however, saw no objection to the proposal of the Committee for a general and complete revisal of the naval stations abroad, before the vote for the next year was taken on the estimates; and they were perfectly willing to inquire how far it was possible to make any reduction safely and honourably, as regarded the serviee of the country, not alnne in the number, but in the size of the ships on these stations. He ( Mr. W.) would next come to votes No. 1 and 2, lato which the Committee had entered at the greatest length. The first recommendation of the Committee in respect of vote 2 was, that the two bases of that vote should be restored. He (Mr. W.) had explained, in moving the votes for 1846-7, in what way these bases came to be changed, and how the aver age struck on the bases, which had been sufficient for the four or five years preceding, was insufficient for that year, in con sequence of the increased application of steam to naval pur poses. He agreed, however, with the Committee, that it was now desirable to restore these two bases, and to act on the plan laid down by Sir James Graham when he held office in the Admiralty—namely, to take the number of ships in commis sion and their complement of men, and apply that number to the estimates for the ensuing period. This year there would be a difference of 60,0001. on these bases. The Committee stated the difficulty of arriving at any result on this vote, since the money voted this year went in part to the pay ment of men who had entered three or four years since; and throughout the report they dwelt on that excess—in vote 1 especially, where they point to irregularity from that cause in the navy estimates. But it was very difficult to get rid of that irregularity; because ships were constantly put in com mission for particular purposes, while others were as con stantly discharged as circumstances arose to demand it; and it was a thing quite certain that when once an excess was created, it required the labour of years to reduce the amount of the vote. When the present Government entered on office, in July, 1846, he ( Mr. ‘i.) found a number of vessels that had been recently commissioned with 2,531 men on board, the full complement being 3,269. That was an ex cess bequeathed to them by their predecessors. Instead of reducing that excess, however, it became necessary, in con sequence of the circumstances of the times, to commission other vessels—the famine in Ireland, for instance, caused the commissioning of several vessels specially employed in that service, having on board 738 men, from the 13th of July, 1846, to the 31st March, 1847—making, is March, 1817, 4,007 men in excess. In 1847-8 the number of men paid off was nearly double that of an ordinary period—namely, 15,539 ; the average of the three years preceding being 8,739. And in the present year, from the let of April to the fat of July, 4,738 were discharged, instead of 2,071, the number reduced in the corresponding quarter of the year preceding. Yet still there was an excess of 4,146 men. In June, how ever, that number had been reduced to 3,900, in July to 2,812, and on the 7th of August the excess was 2,477. There were several ships on their way home as out of commission, however, and the men belonging to these—about 2,369 in number—would reduce the excess by the latter end of Oc tober, or the beginning of November, to 488 men. Every endeavour, however, should, he admitted, be made by the Government to keep the number of men strictly within the Parliamentary vote, and he therefore looked upon the alteration proposed by the Committee as legitimate and proper—viz., that the excess of men borne on the books of the navy over that voted should be reported monthly to Parliament, with the estimates presented by the Board of Admiralty. It would be, in his opinion, a salutary check upon the previous practice that obtained in that particular The Committee observed that net only was vote No. 1 affected by this irregularity, but that vote No. 2 was also equally affected in the same degree; and therefore the re port proposed the same.remedy. On the supplementary grant of 30,0001. in vote No. 1, for the purpose of amelio rating the condition of petty officers and able seamen, the report expressed no opinion. The Committee pointed it out to the House, and that was all. But the House would remember how that vote had arisen, and what were the de bates that bad taken place upon the subject; and also the great desire there was on the part of all Hon. Members that some plan should be devised which would have the effect of keeping these gallant fellows is the service of their own country, and preventing them from going elsewhere. The Admiralty had endeavoured to effect that ob ject through this vote; and their plan was to assimi late the system of rewards in the navy to the good-service warrant in the army. He (Mr. Ward) therefore implored the House, for the sake of the public service, not to withhold its consent to this grant. He quite agreed with the Com mittee that no extra clerks should be permitted without the sanction of the Treasury, and that the principle of extra pay, which was even of a more demoralising tendency, should be regulated in the same way. The Admiralty proposed to adopt* the recommendation of the Committee, that the whole of these establishments be revised in conjunction with the Treasury. He did not now attempt to say what the strength was to be ; he only intended to announce that the departments would be revised by the Admiralty in con junction with the Treasury; and that except under an order in Council neither extra clerks nor extra pay were to be allowed, unless with the sanction of the Treasury, on a written statement from that department which applied for these additions. Another item of increase was the salary of the second secretary, Captain Hamilton. After a full investigation of this subject, and a clear under standing that the salary three years ago was fixed under a misappreheasion, the Admiralty had stated the circumstances of the case in a letter to the Treasury, and the Treasury at once sanctioned an addition of 500/. a year to the salary. He would say, in justice to Captain Hamilton, that Captain Hamilton would not take advantage of this grant from the Treasury until it had received the sanction of the House. He conceived the House would feel they had only done their duty in thus doing justice to a deserving public servant. He came next to the vote No. 5, which re ferred to the scientific branch of the public service. There would be found an increase in the permanent and the tem porary service votes. The temporary service increase arose in consequence of the position of the Arctic expedition. When the House recollected the number of gallant men who had been out on this expedition, which had not been heard of for h an long a period, and who were not provisioned for more thasnur years, he was sure no objection would be raised to i vote. Re felt certain the House would unanimously be ofopinlon th a t t h ey h ad on l y consulted the i nterests of sc i ence, humanity,and justice, in making ample provision, through the aid of the country, for the relief of those whose fate was uncertain. Up to the present time the Admiralty had not heard any tidin gs o f the expedition, but he trusted at what ever part of th e coast Sir John Franklin might make his ap pearance, he woald there find that a provi s i on h a d b een ma d e for his relief. Then a s to the permanent provision, the amount expended i n surveys had been 68,000/. for the years 1837 and 1838, and 123,0 Kt or the y ears 1846 an d 1847. There would be a considerable, en etion, however, this year. The Admiralty conceived that the of 70,0004 for the purpose would be ample, a n d if the House prescribed that limit for future years, it was conceivedffithesiei that the service would t f t as ever. Th e be as well performed and made as efficient bmakile should be the Ad ng Committee suggested that some mode e the sa mit-shy charts snore accessible to the p u bli c adopted. This matter was underconsider a tion of the Admiralty. Then with reference to the vote for the railway and harbour department , which was attached to the Board of Admiralty, as the Committee suggested a mode of deal ing with this matter, he would not enter upon it at, that time. He might, however, remark, that it certainly ' 'essive on the public that three inquiries of ter should be pursued by three different de ) Admiralty had, however, communicated 'resident of the Board of Trade, and ar id no doubt be made with the two other ascertain if the three inquiries could not ly blended ; and when this was effected ensuing years would be different from . He came now to two not unimportant and 8, which . comprehended the eidiriee ... 14 ships. ... 15 "I 4-21 ..... 4 . prey "WttSr acte s:t:7 l : l 4 i''' ° "*ltt -P id i ..101 ;Alp, '-, ..ftee a ( .04. - Al.‘ suiX ... 'tan tai 4 sl ° ..766::2463„,..r .u 3 le ...-p.saan;A e. ' - a 1 1%.*. _ NOB., an paid in the dockyards. The importance of properly inves tigating this question could not be overrated, and the Com mittee had given great attention to it. The vote No. 6 commenced with stating the reasons for the re-establishment of Deptford as :a building-yard. Reasons of policy as well as economy required this to be done. The necessity for building steam-ships required that additional facilities for building them should be found. No resources were so immediately available at the time as the re-establish ment of Deptford yard as a building-yard e and this would account for the increase in this department. As to the total number of ships in the dockyards, they were not more than were sufficient for the public service. The question of timber inspectors he would leave for the present. At page 46 the Committee made some remarks with reference to the super intendence of timber received in the dockyards, in every one of which he entirely concurred. Those remarks truly pointed out that everything depended on the vigilance of the super intendent. If that officer did not exert himself, much useless expenditure and enhanced cost of useful works . would take place. It was, as had been suggested, therefore, most impor tant that these offices should not be conferred on men as an honorary reward for past services, but should be reserved for men of competent knowledge and ability. It was the determination of the Admiralty not to confer appointments of this sort henceforward on any one who was not in full possession of his faculties, both of body and mind. An important saving could be effected is this department, but the difficulty would be to find fit men to till these posts, on account of the multifarious and important character of the duties. The report further stated that our public esta blishments were disadvantageously circumstanced in one particular respect, and gave his (Mr. Ward's) authority for this statement. He (Mr. Ward) begged to say that he never gave an opinion as to the expediency of breaking up our establishments, or diminishing them unduly—or substi tuting private contracts for shipbuilding in place of building ships in our dockyards. If one thing was more clearly proved than another, it was that an increased expense would be incurred by transferring shipbuilding from the dockyards to private shipbuilders' yards. He admitted that dockyards were worse in one respect, because they had not the stimulus which existed in private shipbuilding. But the Admiralty had done all they could to remedy this disad vantage. They had given up all the patronage of the dock yards--they had made them a fair field for all—and they had received the best evidence of the good and salutary working of the new system. They had found that the system was doing good every day, and that it was giving a stimulus to the dockyard artificers, which was an equi valent for the stimulus afforded by private enterprise. He believed the system was creating a new set of valuable ar tisans, and creating a race of officers who would do credit to the public establishments, and who would leave little to de sire, as far as the advantages of private establishments were concerned. The Committee justly remarked that the esta blishments of the. country were regulated by the wants of the country. The. Committee made a comparison between the navy of past times and the navy of the present time—a comparison, however, which he hardly thought thee - had curried out to the full extent. The decrease which had taken place in some classes of our ships of war was most ex traordinary. In line-of-battle ships, the number in 1814 was 199 of all classes, while in 1848 the total number was 47. In 1814 the total number was 199 1825 ... ... 117 1835. 9 7 1848 ... 47 This showed the progress of decay in this department of the service. Some had been converted into hulks, some to hos pital ships, some to quarantine ships, and others to other purposes ; but it was true that as line-of-battle ships we had not 50 ships. This was owing to the large addition which we had made to our navy of steam ships. A large expense had beea incurred for building steam-vessels, and must continua for. some time, if Lord Auckland's recom mendation as to building three ships a year for some years to some were adopted. The estimates for the dockyards was fixed in the year 1830 at 6G,000/. a year. This was after the introduction of steam, and at a period when all matters connected with the dockyards were cut down much too low. But as no reference was had to the increase of the steam-navy these estimates did not last a year. Extra lists were introduced, and the wants of these establish ments had gone on growing up to the present time. The Committee recommended that these establishments should be thoroughly revised, and that an inquiry be instituted as to the amoant of building which ought to take place for the next eight or ten years. The inquiry was to be made by a mode fixed by an order in Council. Hired men ought to be got rid of; there should be no extra men employed, except under official sanction. In these recoin mendatiogs he acquiesced. The Admiralty were prepared to revise those establishments, calling to their assistance per sons connected with the dockyards, and the Admiralty then hoped next year to be able to come before Parliament with a revised scheme for these establishments. There were many other remarks in the report on matters of detail, for instance, as to the duties of surveyors, in which there was complete concurrence. The Committee recommended that the steam and surveying departments be so organized as to work toge ther; the Admiralty would carry out the instructions of the Committee for co-operation in• this respect, as the want of co-operation in those two departments must be productive of loss and mischief. The Committee alluded to the large sums which had been expended in adapting steam machinery to old ships of war. The guard-ship, the Renheim, had been so fitted up ; and three days ago a letter had been re ceived from a gallant and experienced officer, Captain Chad; who described the performance of the Blenheim. The Blen heim was attached to Admiral Napier's squadron. She met with very rough weather, but she weathered it equal to the St. Vincent or the Bellerophon, though carrying fifteen tons more water. She was said to be available for either the Me diterranean or the Channel, and would keep a whole fleet of the enemy's steamers at a prudent distance. She was in Cork harbour when a gale was blowing. She steamed out at once, and performed her voyage in a perfectly satisfactory manner. Another portion of the Committee's remarks had reference to the steam factories, and whether it would not be judicious to reduce them. The vote was reduced 65.0001., which the Committee thought was sufficient. The Admiralty agreed with the Committee in thinking that the practica of doing steam work in the yards was objectionable, and that this duty ought to be limited to steam machinery. But he could not agree with the Committee that the manufacture of :team-boilers ought to be discontinued in the dockyards. The rivets and plates of which the boilers were made, were not made in the dockyards. The only work that was done in the dockyards was to put the boilers t %ether. If boilers were built by contract, as suggested, it would not be fol feeefes oat the principle of economy to build them at Bir mingham, and then have to remove such heavy bodies by railway to the dockyards. The Committee then proceeded to rec. mmend a better system of accounts to be kept. It was difficult to bring large establishments into working order all at once when a new system was proposed ; but he should not be satisfied until he saw a system of debtor and creditor accounts, simple and accurate, produced be fore that House. The Committee recommended it to be ascertained if the packet service could not be more efficiently performed by private contract, and referred to the communication between Holyhead and Dublin. The Admiralty would have no objection to listen to any proposal for making this service more efficient, provided it was based on the principle of giving security that the service should be well performed. With reference to the recommendations as as to the extra hands, they should have consideration. The Committee expressed apprehension that the establishment at Malta was too expensive; but he thought the establish ment at Malta a great addition to our security, and it would be found advantageous in point of economy to our steam ar rangements in the Mediterranean. Then, with reference to naval stores, and the great consumption of English oak, as being injudicious and impolitic, M. Creuze, the surveyor of Lloyd's, advised, that by using other kinds of timber we could economise our oak timber. The Admiralty were mak ing experiments in this direction. A great many new kinds of timber had been recently introduced, and experiments were now making with teak, Honduras mahogany, Italian oak, and other sorts of wood, to see how far they would answer the purposes of the dockyard ; but it must be recol lected that these sorts of timber were not in use in mer chants' yards, and therefore no decision as to their value could be yet arrived at. If, however, they were found to be of use, and they could have a fair trial, they would be made to operate towards diminishing the consumption of English oak. The Committee stated that a large expense of timber would be necessary for the creation of our steam navy ; bat they hoped a large reduction would be made on this head. He should not be dealing fairly with the House if he did not say that he did not think any large reduction could be looked for. It must be recollected that Lord Auckland said we ought to build three line-of-battle ships every year. Now, these three line-of-battle ships yearly would require 18,000 loads of Umbel-. That was not a vote, however, in which he could hope to effect any very great saving. The Committee recommended that the establishment of timber ought to be kept up, as well- as those of all the principal articles in store in the dockyard; for, as it observed, economy in such a vote was only postponing a purchase—putting of the evil day, and leaving to a future Parliament the necessity of making a greatly increased vote. The Committee also recommended that, considering the importance of the vote for timber, it should be taken separately instead of being limped with other items. To that no objection could be made, and they also expressed a hope that a large reduction would be made in the item of steam machinery in the course of the ensuing year. That had already been promised by the Government, who had stated that they would effect a reduction of 180,0001., and he did not think that they could go further. Vote No. 11 was the last vote of any importance connected with the navy upon which he should have to make any remarks. It was the vote relating to new words, and it had given rise to long inquiries in the Committee, and occasioned great difference of opinion. The Committee said this was a vote to be judged, not by a comparison with the estimates .of former years, but with reference to the expediency of the works proposed. and it then went on to inquire whether these new works were indispensably necessary ; and whether precautions were taken for due economy in their eLecution. He had no hesitation in saying that all the works 'conducted by the •Admiralty department were most indispensably necessary.. It was impossible to keep the eountry in an efficient and proper. state, with regard to her coast defences, without such works as were then being carried on at Portsmouth, Chatham, Woolwich, &c. Certainly, if more time for reflection and preparation had been taken, if they had been planned ten years since, there would have been more 'system in their operation, and greater economy in their execution' ; but in all future works he would not have the House, in every ca se where alight errors and faults were discovered, suspend them, and refuse the grants for them; thus putting an end to the works, and robbing the country of the benefit of all the money sunk in them. In forming that estimate the Committee approved of the course of leaving all new works under the vote No. 11. The Committee went on to remark upon the minute details of all the various charges made in each separate item; and it laid to the charge of the Govern ment, that for the last ten years it had not given a complete plan of the factories built at Woolwich. That, however, could not have been done; for all the ingenuity of some of the first engineers of the kingdom had been occupied for 14 years in improving it. The factory had increased and grown with the growth of the steam navy of the country, and there were constant demands upon it. There were also suggestions of experiments which had been tried in private yards, and, being found useful to the public, were adopted. With all this he could not attach any blame to the board for not having submitted a plan of the building in its integrity to Parliament, for it could not be done. They had now sufficient experienee of the working of this factory to do so, but ten years ago it could not have been done. The Committee re marked upon the large factory establishments kept up by the Government, but said that it had not been able to ex amine all the details. He admitted at once that there was no subject more worthy of the attention of Parliament, and he proposed to enter into a laborious inquiry into the matter during the recess as to the means of avoiding the augmenta tion of the burdens of large and increasing factory establish ments. Until some such proceeding was adopted, no satis factory result could be obtained. With regard to the sawing establishment, his Noble Friend seemed to think that the public had not had all the benefit of all the reduction which ought to have taken place in manual labour. It was only a few months since these mills had come into operation, and yet they had lat e ly ma d e a l arge re d uc ti on i n the m anu al labour in the dockyard since the commencement of the pre sent Year, and that syste m th e y wer e prep a r e d to carry o u t still further. The next item in the report of the Committee r y e e f a e r r s re a d go to , the but basin einee at Devonport. That was begun ten place th! plan. that time great alterations had taken There wads great clifiefoce of opinion —in THE SiJN, LON . DON, fact a sort of local feud had been created about it—so that it had been found that it was impossible to arrive at the best plan amidst the conflicting allegations which were made. The Government had selected Mr. Rendel to go to Devon port, and they were then expecting from him a plan of the best course to be pursued in completing that basin. With regard to the works at Keyham the report had it in contemplation that the factory and establishment should be on the same scale as that of Woolwich, and the ma chinery of which would be on the same scale as to the cost, 50,000/: The great object would be to build these factories on a scale which would ;permit of. a sudden ex tension of their operation in case of any sudden demand or war. If there were not accommodation for con structing on immediate pressure they would be nearly useless. The Committee then went on to say that there were works then proposed for the first time from which they should re commend Parliament to withhold its sanction ; and they re ferred to the expense already incurred in the construction of the large basin at Portsmouth. They stated that it was not advisable that any further expense should be incurred in this work after a million and a quarter had lately been sunk in a similar one. It would be the height of folly and extrava gance—an extraordinary instance of fascination scarcely ever seen, to allow the 400,0001. already spent to be sunk, without taking measures to render it available. The Committee itself was not far from the same opinion, for so it was impressed with the necessity of continuing these works, that on a division cf its members only two were found to recommend that the 400,0001. should be regarded as thrown away. The Govern ment were quite willing to act upon the report of the Com mittee, so far as to suspend the commencement of any further works in the present year, and up to the present time they had laid before Parliament the full plans and entire costs of works now being built on a deeper and larger scale, and those they submitted to the House for its sanction. He would, however, point out to the House that the Government were subject to this difficulty—that they were engaged to con tractors, to a large amount. Mr. Baker had in his posses sion a letter from the Board of Admiralty, written in 1844, pledging themselves to spend 209,000/. in the present year. The Board had succeeded in reducing the amount to be spent to 130,0001. They must, however, pay the contractor for the materials at present on the ground, and during the recess the Board would consider the whole question, and would endeavour, in conjunc tion with the contractors, to spread the items over a large number of years, and at present they would refrain from erecting any factory building at all, except on a very mode rate scale. The report next alluded to the works at Haulbow line. The Admiralty was at present in possession of the land upon which the proposed tank was to be built, but not of the land for the landing-pier; so that they could not give any return for the cost of that. Application had been made to Lord Middleton to transfer the ground for that purpose to the Admiralty, but in consequence of some defect in the title it was not possible to do so. The state of the case was, the Government :had incurred censure for ,having made a good bargain, and it was impossible to say when the landing-pier would be constructed. The Committee next recommended that the sum of 20,0001., proposed in the estimates for the new barracks at Goa port, should not be granted during the present year. That was a decision in which he certainly could not concur, hies mach as the exigency for these barracks was forced upon them by another department, and their removal was required by the public service. It was not of their seeking, but the change gave opportunity for an excellent and advantageous arrangement for the public. The barracks at Portsmouth were in a state to require large and extensive repairs in the course of a few years. The old barracks gave accorno dation to a number of men which the proposed ones would better accommodate, and would certainly be one of the best establishments of the kind which the country had. He impressed on the House the necessity of granting this 20,0001., with the understanding that the estimate for the expenses should not be granted before the estimate had been very c Irefully gone into. The works were already in progress, and great inconvenience would arise from stopping them. There was another recommendabion with regard to Bermuda—that of reducing the sum of 16,500/., to be granted for the construction of works there, to 10,000/. The reduction was recommended on the ground that more con vict labour could be employed. It was not, however, possible s to tor e e m ho p u lo se y s c w o e n r v e ic t t o l h ab av ou e r ir a o lo r n r e o ; ofe a , n, w d hi b e e h sid w e e s re t r h e a a t, dy th to e be sent out. He hoped that no impediment would be thrown in the way of completing these works. Besides c these m p i a t t r e t i e c t u h l a a r t s t t h h e e r A e d w in a i s r a a l t g v e n e h e r o a u l l d r e cnoemv never e i n n dati on future o fenter upon any new work unless they first submitted it to and obtained the approval of the Treasury. That suggestion they were quite ready to adopt. True very nearly com pleted the votes in which the naval service was ex clusively concerned ; but he should make a few observations upon vote No. 13, with reference to the expense incurred in drilling the coast-guard. That item they had reduced from 16,0001. to 5,0001.; and he should remind the House that although this expense had been incurred, that this was an arm of the service which had dis tinguished itself, and had been proved to be in every way most efficient. In the case of the late apprehended outbreak in Ireland, 330 of the coast-guard volunteed their services. These were picked men, and the Government might in case of necessity have obtained double the number. The men were all willing, and they appeared to have no hesitation, with one solitary exception, in returning to their old profes sion. He then came to the question upon which the Commit tee and the Admiralty were deeply and irreparably at issue. This was the question which occurred under vote No. 14, and related to the question of promotions. The Committee had proposed to the Admiralty that the Admirals' list—fixed 20 years ago at 150, should be reduced permanently to 100, and that that reduction should be effected by stopping the promotion through all ranks of the navy by only raising one captain to the captains' list fir every three vacancies, and by stopping promotion in a corresponding degree in all the lower ranks. This decision was come to in the Committee by a bare majority of the Members. There were some curious circumstances connected with it, but of that, per haps, they had no right to speak in that House. He would say that he hoped some of the lion. Members had seen the many difficulties which were caused by this decision, and that they would ultimately give their votes fur some other course. In all the preliminary remarks of the Committee there was great propriety and delicacy, and the considera tion which ought to be maintained in deciding a question of this nature. The Committee stated that it entertained a deep interest and regard for the feelings of those gallant officers engaged in the navy; in fact it was impossible to show more delicacy of feeling than that shown by the committee In consulting on a matter affecting the in• te rests of those gallant officers, but which they thought might be altered with greater advantages to the public. The Government did not contend for the necessity of having an Admiral's list of 150; they would be glad of a list of 100 instead. And it was quite true that the number was not required, as they never had that number employed in their greatest naval wars. It was equally true, however, that the condition on which a man went into the navy was that he should rise to a flag in due course of promotion, and not be cheated out of it; and he had a double right at present to form those expectations, as the whole question of retirement in the navy had been twice under the consideration of the House during the last four years; and it was twice settled, by the assent of two Governments, without a d:vision in the House of Commons. The present system had been proposed and carried for the express purpose of offering an honourable retirement to those captains whose age was too great to enable them to remain in effective service, and to whom their country offered the rank of retired rear-admiral, instead of retain ing them on the active list. The House of ;Commons voted 30,0001. yearly for that purpose ; and what would be the effect of the recommendation of the Committee? It would throw back every man three years, and its opera tion was such that they would- cheat themselves of the very consideration they expected with regard to the 30,0001., for they were bound to pay it for the lives of the men already promoted. By the present system they would in the course of a year have admirals of 55 and 54, instead of men of the age of 70 and upwards ; and he entreated the House to continue the grant, and to pause before it com mitted an act injurious to the serviceand unjust to its officers. It would throw back the hopes of many a gallant fellow who looked to the reward due to many ye w a o r b s r yt ohf dtdeath-vacancies; haet arduous bh..thv service. eapaoln ennai op coulde ns; as . And he would venture to believe that the House would not entertain such a crude and uneconomical proposition. But how was it that the Committee proposed to a r rive at th e result ? They propose to take off 30 yellow admirals, and to form a separate list, with only 112 remaining, from which also they must strike off 12 in order t o ma k e u p th e reduc tion contemplated. But supposing that to be done, what were they to do with the yellow captai ns w ho were serv ing up to their flags, and were close upo n th e i r ti me ? They must be put upon the same narrow li st. He could say nothing but to recommend t o th e a tt en ti on of the House, that it it assented to thi s propos i t i on i t would assent to one which wo u ld di sgust a ga ll ant service, area break an arrangement t o w hi ch only two years before it had e g i o i s v ew e given were we t s eo a un s ll assent, n n t ei: and e promoted sanctioned y the whilecunop posed posed authority of two Governments, after giving it a grave consideration. The Committe e a l so assumed that the subordinate w r a e r r , man of spirit to enter the service whilst h e h a d a shilling left to live upon. It was proposed to do away w i th b revets, but upon the understanding that there should b e two i n tthheryeeasinsetnht to a eordin p a r r o y m c o o t u io rs n e of of o - promotion; o t t h i r o e n e— ; r o d how stated by the Committee? The Admiralty could not give its consent, and they called on the House to confirm their de cision. The only part of the recommendation in which the Admiralty did concur was the limitation of first entries, They agreed that the limitation of first entries was the key stone to all substantial economy—they not permitting so great a number of cadets in the service. He must also remind the House that the half-pay lists of the army and navy were differently arranged. The navy had not that resource which was possessed by the army of disposing of their commissions by purchase. When a man was once on the halt-pay list of the navy he was there for life, and there 'were no means given to him of changing his condition by dis posing of his commission on terms of advantage to himself; but if they looked at the payments now made to general offi cers and senior captains, they would find in the army that the pay of the general officers and colonels of regiments amounted in the whole to 154,000/. The half-pay of general officers unattached was 76,0004 making together 230,000/. The half-pay to lieutenant-colonels and colonels being l i 83,6001., made a payment_togen_eralsand colonels in the army of 313,600/. The total amount of full and half-pay of admi rals and,flag-officers in the navy' was' 232,504/. ; so that this was not an overpaid profession. 'lt was indeed one in which those few great prizes were looked to by those gallant officers who entered the service. Then another recommendation of. the Committee was the freight of ships for the conveyance of convicts, or the services performed in the packet service that should not appear in the navy estimates, but be made matter of account elsewhere. At present the public saw one million charged in the navy estimates, and it was now considered that that had nothing to do with the naval service. The Government admitted that it would be desirable to adopt this suggestion. He had now gone through the recom mendations of the Committee, which, taking them large and a at s tt ohh m l ftoo m bu2re o eg: i u ihge n avtnn t ei e ddts d tthat t o htehei oeti 3 : 3 nsod . auuvwgt yy O he rt f et theseho edissent had suggestionsreasons w when they at lie l our f v r e o n m g rh e d the Committee. He had now only to state to the House was adequatelyi n a m o most efficient provided for ; thatand at home we had a large force, which, however, was not larger than an ul character s i at v ra a a s e ctee roaf a required.trheeg regarded radlChangeseudeof the ip thea b had been made of a most use n ordinary, they and could d g u c a o rds I iiP and the steam reserve ships. If, i n d ee d , the House wished fors i nsteams in reserve,not have a better proof of how easily available it might be made than what had occurred last week. L as t week there was reason to believe that an additional naval force might be required in Ireland. On the 27th of July ord ers were given at the Admiralty, at one o'clock, for tire immedi a t e equip ment of four vessels of the steam reserve. O n the 28tti of July, at ten o'clock in the morning, two of those vessels were on their way to Spithead, manned, armed, provisioned, and furnished with everything except their gunpowder; they took in their powder at three in the afternoon, they sailed an hour afterwards to Devonportovhere they took in the 35th Regiment, and they landed that regiment on the 30th in Dublin.—(Hear, hear.) That was an i n st a n ce of the manner available, in which our steam rese rve would enable us to brin g the Twhheoloenplyoweeerrtoafinthweaeymopfihreavtoinbgea foarornee constantly particular point. was in the shape of a steam reserve, which he hoped would be THURSDAY EVENING, AUGUST 10, 1849, established at Devonport. The system was begun with the Board to which his Hon. Friend was attached, and it had been carried out by the present Government. The steam reserve would be our great security, if, unhappily, we should be in volved in hostilities with any foreign country. That steam reserve,' the House must understand, cost nothing. The steamers wore in preparation, with an organization under Captain Austin—the whole establishment was not more than 270 men—and yet they could have six of these vessels made available within twelve hours; and six more as soon as they could put men on board of them. He thought that after stating that the Admiralty were ready to adopt 29 out of the 33 recommendations of the Committee, he need not give another pledge of the earnest desire of the Admiralty to carry out legitimate economy; but in stating the desire to pursue economy, he did lot propose, nor did he wish the Committee to imagine, that the Government would do anything to cripple or impair our most legitimate sources of power in case of foreign aggression. The Admiralty wished to be prepared with ample means, not with a view to purposes of hostility to any party, but to resist aggression from whatever quarter it might come. He hoped that the votes which he was about to put would meat with the approbation of the House. The first vote proposed w s a sum of 293,5601. to make up the sum of 1,393,5061. for the wages of seamen and marines. __ _ 3.6.1 1 1UME said he had sat on many Committees, but he must say that he had never sat on any Committee where he more approved of the conduct of the Chairman than he did of the conduct of the Noble Lord who presided over the Committee on the navy estimates, whose continuous and pa tient application under every occurrence that took place de served from him (Mr. Hume), at least, the highest appro bation.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to say of the Committee also, whose conduct had been attacked by a Gallant Ad miral, that, differing in several important points from them, he had never seen a Committee who had more fairly weighed and inquired into the various matters that came under their consideration before coming to a decision than that Com mittee did.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think them liable, therefore, to.the charges which had been made against them on that head.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee had not proceeded to the length which he wished and which he proposed to them; but he had no right to 'complain; he submitted his views to them, and when those were not adopted he yielded to their decision, as he always did when he found himself in a minority.—(Hear, hear.) He came then to the question, how far the Committee had conducted their business with advantage to the country or not—and he feared he could not express a very favourable opinion on that point. They had hit a few blots, but they might have proceeded much further than they had done. The Chairman of the Committee stated at the outset that he did Hot wish them to lose time in finding out what mischiefs had taken place from want of system and mismanagement; but that the object they should have in view should be to correct, as far as possible, the evils that existed, and point out how improvement could be effected in future. He there fore could not allow his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward) to take credit for the fact, or allow the country to believe, that no mismanagement was discovered, or could be discovered. He believed, from what had -come to his knowledge, that the waste of public money, in consequence of the waste of ma terial and experiments in the construction of ships during the last fifteen years, had been enernious; and the necessity for a change and for additional checks in respect to these- matters was admitted in every arrangement that was now making. The Hon. Member had concluded his speech by saying that the navy was in a most efficient state. If that was the case —which be did not doubt—he wished to know if it was not in such a state as to afford a reduction of expense? He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the service should not be crippled n or i mpaired; b ut the quest i on was, what was necessary for the service of the country, and whether the aggregate amount of expense was properly proportioned? In the first place, it was important to settle the number of men that was requisite to be maintained—for the whole report proceeded upon the assumption that unless they fixed a limit to the number of men in the first instance, there was no limit to the expense of stores. On the 20th of March last, he proposed that the number of men should be reduced from 43,000 to 36,009—being 11',003 more than at a former time when the navy was declared to be equally efficient; but only 38 Members out of a House of 385 agreed to effect that reduction.—(Hear, hear.) His Honourable Friend said that that question having been decided by the House he did not think it necessary to enter into it ; but had no circumstances occurred in Europe since that period to induce a reduction ? At the present moment when the rest of Europe were occu pied with their own affairs and not seeking to meddle with us, was this a time to increase the expense of the navy ? In the years 1833-4-5 and 6 the average number of men was 27,000 and the expense of supporting them 4,630,6431. In the years 1845-6-7 and 8 the number of men was 40,000, and the expense 7,667,295/. ; while for the years 1818-9 the number of men voted was 43,000, and the es timated expense 7,951,8421., being an excess of 3,517,059/. over the estimates of 1835-6.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had referred to the number and efficiency of the steame rs; b ut s i nce they had so, many steamers why should they not h ave fewer ships? Was no reduction to be made on that s core ? (Hear, hear.) The Government was keeping up a naval establishment much beyond what the purposes of the country required, and it was the duty of the Executive to ascertain what reductions ought to be made. It was not in the power of any Committee to point out the details wherein a saving might be effected, and he at once admitted that there was not a single vote inquired into by the Committee with which they had done more than merely skimmed the surface. The Committee had in one respect done good service in pointing out the principles upon which the naval department should be conducted, at the same time leaving it to the Government to introduce those checks and improvements which would be advantageous to the country. The great increase in the number of men and number of ships—and which had occasioned an expense of 3,500,000!. for this year beyond the average of the esti mates for the years 1814, 1835, and 1836—was not to be accounted for by the external relations of the country, for our colonies had not been attacked, nor our own shores invaded, and the only possible ground for such an in crease appeared to him to be that system of political interfe rence with the affairs of other nations which had been too much pursued by this country. How were our ships sta tioned ? If they went back to the year 1838 they would find Sir G. Cockburn stating that all the force that was required to protect British commerce in the Mediterranean was four chips, one large frigate and three small ones; "but," said that Gallant Admiral, " I do not give that evidence in allusion to the political state of affairs, I speak only of what is necessary to protect our coesmeeeial interests." Now, there was a re turn on the table made up to 1842, which showed that there while the in fin. l ce 79 w 2 h , itchhe the whole o le ov ern. were sr pennants in the Mediterranean, and the number of men employed w num ber of seamen and marines in the British navy amounted only t in o e l r_ 6 t.bst '" o nin'eante Thena at ly persevered in k ee pi ng on t h e western coast Committee esthigaavtiengthis been matter appointed in intedto inquire of Afriat, consisting of no less than 28 s hi ps . Th e Com mittee conse quence re d o i into a d not it s Special They, howev er , went f ar enough to show thoroughly that no good had been done by our interference, but that mischief had arisen from it. lii 1847, no less than 43 ships were expressly employed in a fruitless endeavour to suppress the slave trade ; 28 off the western coast of Africa, 11 at the Cape, and some halt-dozen ships on the southeast coast of America, where they were interfering with other people's affairs. It was by measures such as these that the aggregate expense of our establishment was occasioned, and his Hon. Friend held out no hope that any reductions would be effected in this enormous expenditure. The labour of the Committee, therefore. would be of very little use unless the House should interfere and stop the supplies. There ap peared to him to be no other means by which the Govern ment could be induced to adopt any measures of economy. His Honourable Friend had said that there were only fifty sail of the line, but they ware not manned. The ships could not be brought into ore, and were kept merely to be looked at. Many of our largest ships had never been in the water, but had literally rotted on the slips. His Hon. Friend had, declared that the Government would not agree to the recommendation of the Committee with reference to the half-pay, and to the number of admirals that were at present in the service. Upon that question he (Mr. Hume ) should certainly take the sense of the House. only 13 admirals were actively employed, it was therefore mon strous that so large an establishment as 100 flag officers should be kept up. He altogether disagreed with the reasons which his Honourable Friend had assigned for main taining the establishment at that rate. His Hon. Friend said that there were a great many young mess growing up in the naval service, all of whom were looking anxiously fin-- ward to obtaining a flag. What would be the state of things if the country were called upon to maintain a plura lity of Lord Chancellors, in order that the expectations of all the young barristers who were growing up and aspiring to hold the great seal might not be disappointed?—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Or why not (as an Honourable Friend behind him had suggested) make provision that every clergyman who entered the Church should ultimately become a Bishop ? —(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) It would be just as reasonable as to adopt the system supported by his Hon. Friend. A comparison had been drawn by his Hon. Friend between the army and the navy. A similar comparison was drawn by the Committee of 1840; and if anything more than another ought to induce the Govern ment to make a change in the system of promotion in the was the result which that comparison presented. Friend had compared the number of admirals in n n a i v s y h i o t n. w the navy with the number of generals in the army, but had be allowed for the fact that there were four times the number of soldiers than there were of sailors? To make the comparison , a fair one, the number of Jag officers, and the expense of paying th em , ought to be multiplied by four. He almitted that the increase of generals and sniff-officers in the army was far beyond what the service of the country required as was the number of admirals ; and if the Govern ment acted on a sonnd principle they would put an end to the system. He therefore in that respect differed from the Committee in retaining 100 admirals, and proposed that the number should 75.--(Heer.) What bad been the services of the-naval be only officers.? He bad, in anticipation of some such comparison bei n g psade as that which had been instituted by his Hon. Fri end, extracted a passage from the Commissioners' report in 1840 relatin g to that sub j ect, and he was sorry to say it presente d a ver y p oor p icture of their ser vices. There were many of those'officers, no doubt, who were anxious to be on active service, but who were unable to ob tain appointments.' They were laid on the shelf, and at last became old men and unfit for service. He found by a com parison of the services of the naval and military officers, as lowing results reported by the Commissione rs for in q uir y in 1840, the fol- NAVY . . Yrs. Mths. Wks. 83 Flag Officers, - promoted by three brevets.—Average service l7 4 0 Average half-pay 683 Captains.—Average service ... ..... Average half. pay 318 captains had never served a day as captains, and had been promoted and then laid on the shelf, and 68 had served less than one year. Yrs. Mths. Wks. 807 Commanders.—Average service... Average half-pay 2,879 Lieutenants —Average service Average half-pay The average service as commanders only was less than three Years; 492 had never served as commanders. and 102 less than one year. Bit all this had"nothing to do with the war promotions. These hal been promoted since. At the close of the war 1,000 midshipmen and mates were promoted in order to wind up and close the service. That was to be a fuel and complete settlement'of the late war. But there had been a great deal more promotion since then than during the war. ARMY. Yrs. Mths. Wks. 123 Major-Generals. —Average service 27 0 .. 16 5-13th. 0 Average half-pay 11 0 0 254 Lieut. -Colonels.—Average service ... 28 6 0 rank in the army 1,089 Captains.—Avera g e Average half- pay 2 0 0 an ha d lf e l s o ; r 226 Majors.—Average service ... .. 24 3 0 P it a3 a l p .. p . eared .. t . h at I the generals 9 had o Thus, on comparing the services of o ffi cers of corresponding lAtuNt-lernaagvey half-pay served ten years longer on full pay than the flag officers; the ze A ra v g er e a l g ia e lf s - ervice lieutenant-colonels had served 18 years and a half longer (or nearly three times the period) on full pay than the (navy) majors a ca b p o t v a e in t s hr ; e t e h t e imes lon li g a e d r served sixteen s p i a x y te t e h n a y n e t a h rs o and coin ma the captains had served 12 years (or four times the period on full pay) longer than the (navy) lieutenants; and yet the majority of the above military officers purchased their com missions, which the officers in the sister service did not. Now, the country ought only to pay for services performed. here should be no system of promotion which allowed men to be put upon half-pay after three or four years' service. Why not adopt the French system ? In their navy the same rule applied to the officers as attached to the privates. They had quarters, thirds, half-pay, and full pay, applying both to officers and men ; and why should it be otherwise in this coun try? He took his Hon. Friend's observations in the spirit in which they were. intended, and which, no doubt, were meant for the benefit of the service; but what he wished was, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government should consider the aggregate amount of the charge on the public, and whether the Noble Lord was not exaggerating the necessity of keeping up so large an establishment as they had been maintaining for the last few years. He would not trouble the House with any remark upon his old and favourite topic—the public establishments of the year 1792—(Laughter)—but it was satisfactory for him to observe that the Committees of 1816, 1817, 1219, and 1838 all referred to that year as a standard of comparison with regard to the permanent expenses of the different de partments in the state. One cause for the increase of the estimates beyond their amount in 1792 was the great rise which took place in the price of provisions, particularly in the year 1800. That indeed was the only reason why the salaries of public men were increased. At that period it was urged that by reason of the corn-laws provisions were dear, and it was necessary to make proportionate allowances in the public charges;' but he might remind the Committee that the', corn-laws were now about to terminate, and he thought the time would soon come when it would become the duty of the Minister to review the salaries of all persons receiving money from the public purse—from the highest to the lowest officers in the State, in order that he might reduce them proportionately to the ,reduced price of provisions, and of almost every article hi the country. Several succes sive Select Committees had recommended greater economy in the naval expenditure, but had the Government acted on those recommendations? No; they raised every shil ling they could, and spent every shilling they could raise, instead of following the advice of the Select Commit tee in 1819, to make every possible reduction during peace, in order to be better prepared for. the exigency of war.—(Hear). He believed that the people of this couns try were sound at heart, and were to be depended on, but let not the Government crush them by taxation, and by the expense of keeping up useless establishments which were not wanted. Let them withdraw their squadron from the coast of Africa, where they were adding greater horrors to the already sufficient horrors of the slave trade. There was one point to which he had before adverted, namely the waste of public money in useless salutes.—(hear, and a laugh.) He found that 50/. was thrown away in one day in this way, and that which would relieve all the charities in the country was wasted in most unnecessary salutes of powder. It was childish in the highest degree to blaze away powder in compliment to officers of rank.—(A laugh, and hear, hear.) The state of the medical profession in the navy also required the attention of the House. In 1840 the Select Committee which sat then called the attention of the Admiralty to the condition and prospects of this class, which they stated were not such as to afford due encouragement to these meritorious officers. Hence arose the difficulty which was at present felt of getting a supply of these officers. It was a most ex traordinary fact, that while there was not an appointment to any rank in the dockyards for which there were not hun dreds and thousands of applicants, there were no candidates for the post of medical assistants in the navy. These officers complained that they were not placed upon ward-room rank - with the other officers of her Majesty's ships, and that they were not allowed to mess and berth with other gentlemen of their own education and rank in society. Was theirs not something wrong when in every union workhouse in the country there were dozens of medical men anxious to fill every vacancy, and yet that in her Majesty's navy assistant surgeons could not be got? The system adopted of building ships in the 'loyal Navy was most extravagant, and he hoped the Government would attend to the opinion of the witnesses who had stated to the Committee that the Government, in stead of increasing their establishment in every emergency, should. calculate what the wants of the service were likely to be, should keep the number of mee proportioned thereto, and then, if an emergency should arise, t here were plenty of pri vate dockyards where they could obtain assistance. He did not wish to see the repairs of her Majesty's ships given to private dockyards, but he believed it to be possible to have as good a ship built by contract as in the Government yards. And why not? The Government surveyors could lay down the lines, they could appoint their officers to inspect the timber used, and to see the work performed. By employing the private yards on an emergency the Government could keep their establishments within a limited fixed scale. 'Utley ought, indeed, to be kept something below the scale, because there were in the country such large yards and such excel lent shipbuilders. These naval estimates of 8,000,000/. might be reduced one. half their amount, but the Govern ment gave the House no a'surance of reduction. The state of Europe and of the world warranted such reduction, and he demanded it on behalf of those who already laboured under such heavy loads of taxation. If the Government were determined to keep the country clown by military force, would twice as many troops add to their security? The country wanted an efficient and an economical Government, one which would not keep down the people by military force. If there were wisdom in the Cabinet, its members, looking to the present aspect of affairs, would say that there ought to be peace; and if they took their measures accordingly they would strengthen the present Government, which he wished to see preserved. Admiral GOR DON regretted that the Government had consented to refer the naval estimates of the current year to a Committee of the House, because it was a precedent which he feared might be injurious to the public service. The re sponsibility of proposing the naval estimates properly rested with the Government, and they were expected to be ready to support and defend these estimates. With regard so the labours of the Committee, although there were some of their recommendations in which he could not concur, still he was bound to say, that upon the whole they had collected a vast deal of very useful information—(Hear, hear)—which would prove very useful hereafter. He agreed generally with the Secretary of the Admiralty upon those points on which he proposed to concur with or dissent from the recommendations of the Committee, some of which the Government would do wisely not to adopt without first consulting the opinions of competent professional persons. Captain BERKELEY said, there were one or two state ments made by the lion. Member for Montrose in which he could not concur, and which a few of those figures of which the Hon. Member was so fond would show to be erroneous. With regard to the assistant-surgeons of her Majesty's navy, he thought it was much better left to the Executive and to the Admiralty to say in what part of the ship these officers should continue to be placed, than to leave such questions to such a body as even the House of Commons. The Hon. Member said there was not one candidate for the situation of assistant-surgeon in the navy. But it was necessary, in the first place, to state that, in conse quence of the general promotion in 1845-6, there were 71 surgeons promoted. To fill those vacancies no less than 100 assistant-surgeons offered themselves, and were now on the lists. - (Hear.) And he had the pleasure of informing the [ion. Member, that the assistant-surgeons entered ;since 1847-8 were 49, the average promotions of surgeons in the navy being 12 in the year. If the Hon. Member complained that the promotion was so slow, he must remember that this was one of the consequences of a time of peace. The Hon. Member stated, that there was not one assistant-sur geon to be had; but, ho knew a gentleman who lately wrote to a friend in the north to ask whether any assistant-sur geons could be procured there, and limiting his friend to engage a number not greater than 10; the gentleman se addressed shortly afterwards wrote to say that he had got five, that other business had occurred to prevent his engag ing a greater number, but that he had no doubt he could get as many assistant-surgeons for her Majesty's navy as he pleased. So much for the Hon. Member's statement that assistant-surgeons would not enter into the navy.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member had said that if we had 50 sail of the line we could not man them. lie would admit that we had not an or ganized force to man that number of ships, but it must be remembered that at the close of the war we had 141 ships of the line fully manned, and if the same demand should arise he did not see why they should not be able to mars a fleet now as well as then --(Cheers.) At the close of the war there were no less than 728 ships commissioned by cap tains who were then placed on half-pay. Those 728 captains were independent of commanders and lieutenants. Alto gether there were about 1,200 sail in commission at the end of the war, and how could it be helped that there should be at present a great number of those officers upon half-pay? — (Hoar, hear.) There were 728 captains then afloat, while at. the present moment the whole of their fleet commissioned by post-captains, as they were then called, did not amount to more than fifty.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUAIE explained. His statement of the scarcity of candidates ro in Sir W. Burnett, hrhe tt assistant-surgeons edical in Director-General wasderived Navy. vy f. ' Mr. COBDEN said he wished to make a few g eneral ob servations on the question before the House. The Com mittee on which he had sat had been p recluded from enter taining the question what should be the amount of our naval o f the force. They were told that that was a question which should be left to the responsible advisers of the Crown, and that it was for the House to decide whether or not the forc e proposed should be mainta ined. Now the y all knew th at ion of that sort brought before the House became a confidence in the Government. Before their meeting again next question of con en February, if, indeed, they did not any quest as semble sooner, the amount of the naval force for the ensuing year would be considered, and he took it for granted, what ever it might be, that the ILuse would agree to it. He wished, however, to offer one or two observations, as the re sult of his experience on the Committee, as to the amount of force we should maintain, and in doing so he did not - wish to pass censure on any Government, past or present. It had been stated by the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty that the s t i o cl i rum g that t navy estimates had been increasing for the last ten years; that no division had ever been t ak en against the increase, and he took fair ground when he s aid that the Government was not to be blamed, and that t he re presentatives of the peopl e alone were to be blamed for having consented to the inc rease. foro u The increase which had taken p l ace in our naval armame n t s from wa s necessary for us to keep pace with other countries, who had alsot m increased in p ve increase of force— mittee would agree with him, the questio n b e i ng one of re lative forces, that if other countries, as w e ll as t hi s, adopted i e to time their had been force justified fi No ed w line o the groundethoughtbthe o taa a bgn ard d ti i er f f theet hhrenat object n t btgj he p eac o rt l re i awcseyhb-e—iocoubififdrhii be e s aa t Inenr3aodLcbooiift comparative friendsaugmenting sought each its d forces,l b f they yti d b gained, and yet each country would stand in the same rela tive position that it did at present. The great increase which had taken place lately in our navy estimates had been for steam forces. He did not think the Committee had fully appreciated the vast a mount of expenditure incurred for the steam navy. He thought the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty would admit that he did not exaggerate whim he said that at this moment - .there were built, building, or about to be built, a steam navy equal to 100 vessels, averaging 1,000 tons each; and in addition to these sixty or seventy smaller steamers of different denominations. He had taken some pains to engage the assistance of practical and experienced men on the subject of the estimates and cost of the vast armament which this country was keeping up, and he would give them the result of his invest igatious. He found that we had in war-steamers a horse power amounting to 32,000. He would take the tonnage at 100,000. Now, from the evidence which was given before the Committee, it would appear that the cost of these vessels, upon the above calculation of tonnage and horse power of machinery, would amount to no less than 5,000,000/. sterling. Then there were smaller vessels to the extent of about 10,000 horse, the cost of which he would estimate at 1,000,0031., nicking in all, for the cost of our steam navy, no less a sum than 6,000,0001. Could the Committee believe the fact that there was ex pended on our steam navy a larger amount than was sunk in the entire number of steamers engaged in our merchant ser vice, whether in the coasting or foreign trade?—(hear, hear.) Yet suck was the fact. The lion. and Gallant Gentleman opposite (Admiral Bowles) seemed to doubt the facts; but he could assure him it was so. There was snore expended on our steam navy, more than the entire capital sunk in all l the merchant steamers of this country, - put together.—( Hear.) He perceived also that the Right Hon. Baronet the Chan cellor of the Exchequer appeared not to credit the fact— neither could the country, perhaps; but, nevertheless, the case was as he had stated.-(Hear.) Considering the enor mous expense to the country which had accrued from this source, he was disposed to say that it would have been a Messing to this country if steam navigation had never been invented.—(Oh, oh, and hear.) He repeated what he had said, that it would bs so if we were to go on with the race we were now running.—(Hear, hear.) If they were to keep up such a large steam navy to protect their merchant navy, what advantage were they deriving from it? He could prove that it was the same in other countries. He could prove that the war-steamers of France cost more than the merchant navy; and that the same. was tke case with re spect to Sardinia, to Denmark, Russia, and Austria. NoW, if all the countries in Europe had been sunning that absurd race of expenditure, was there any one that would not agree with him in the opinion that it was high time to draw public attention to the subject, in order that this enormous expenditure in war-steamers might be reduced?— (Hear, hear.) He would mention another fact on this point, and affirm that we had as large an amount of money invested in steam docks and other public establishments for the re pair of steam-ships, as was employed in all the private yards engaged in the building of merchant ships. He had taken some pains to satisfy himself of the truth of that fact. Now, there was expended, or engaged to be expended, the an nexed sums at the following places: At Woolwich, 150,0001.; at Portsmouth, 250,0001. ; at Keyham, 1,250,0001. —making a total for the provision of the repair of steam-ships of war of not less than 1,625,0001., and that was a la-ger amount of capital than was expeuded on all the private shipbuilding yards on the Clyde, the Thames, or elsewhere, for the construction of merchant vessels. Yet all that was done in those Government establishments was the making and repairing of boilers. What had been the cause, he would ask, or how was it that this enormous increase in our expenditure had taken place? It had been caused by a panic, by the fear of an invasion by other countries. He would say a word or two on that point, and he begged to observe that he did not wish to make the slightest remark which would raise an an tagonistic spirit on the part of professional men ; but he should say that amongst the naval and military gentlemen examined before the Committee, there appeared to be a strong bias in favour of increased and enlarged armaments. —(Hear, hear.) Amongst those who bad given evidence with respect to their opinion of the necessity for this in creased expenditure, and this preparation for hostilities, had been Sir Thomas Hastings. The Honourable Member here referred at same length to the evidence of this officer given before the Committee. In one part of the evidence it had been stated, that for the purpose of protecting Ports mouth from an assumed invasion eight line-of-battle ships should be made screw steamers. But the result of his recom mendation had been that only one, namely, the Blenheim, had been so completed. This suggestion had been caused by the supposition that France was preparing an increased naval armament, which after all bad turned out a false alarm Then, again, with respect to steam dockyards, the same Gallant Officer assumed that a battle' had taken place, and even though favourable,to the fleet of this country, contended that at Portsmouth and Plymouth accommodation for re pairing war-steamers to the extent of 20,000 horse-power should be provided. In all the testimony given with respect to the expenditure we ought to incur it was assumed that we were at war. It was on the assumption of such a state of things that a su.n amounting to 1,250,0001. had been re commended to be laid out at Keyham. While they hal at the present moment an amount of dockyard accommodation for the repair of vessels to the extent of 25,000 horse-power, it was recommended by the gallant witness that it should be increased to 75,000 horse-. power to meet the exigencies of all the imaginary battles which were contemplated in the, testimony. The same wit ness had been further asked " Was all this necessary in a time of peace?" To which he had replied. " I view all these questions with reference to a state of war."—( Hear, hear.) But, great as all those preparations were, it appeared that some of the gallant officers examined were not satisfied with them. Another "gallant officer, - Admiral Bowles, was also examined. Perhaps he (Mr. Cobden) might not be perfectly in order, in quoting from or referring to evidence which was not yet in the hands of all the Members of the House; but it was no fault of his if the navy, estimates were brought on before that evidence was distributed.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then read some extracts from the evidence of the Hon. and Gallant Member last named, by which it would appear that his opiniOn - wee, that the navy of this country should be superior, by one-half, to that of France, whatever the latter might be. Admiral BOWLES said, it was a proof of the inexpe• diency and irregularity of quoting evidence not formally in the possession of the House, that the Hon. Member was reading an uncorrected copy. What he had stated was " ships of the line." Mr. COBDEN continned.--He agreed with the Hon. and Gallant Admiral in the opinion which he had expressed in this instance, that England should have a larger naval and steam force than other countries Every one should admit that England was entitled to have a more extended naval force in proportion to her more extended commerce; and she might have such without exciting the jealousy of other na tions.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not in favour of this system of continually increasing our naval armament. The Hon. and Gellert witness also admitted that in giving the advice for the increased armament he never considered the expense, but only took into consideration the safety of the empire. In' the evidence given before the Committee it appeared to him that the witnesses assumed a physical possibility, and called upon them to agree to it as a moral probability.—(Hear, hear.) Such were the grounds upon which they were told to agree to an increased expenditure. He saw a remark in one of the American papers which, although a coarse one, struck him as having some weight in it with regard to our recent' panic. It had been there said that England was in curring a large expense for a long time in playing the bully amongst other nations, and that she was now incurring a large expense in playing the coward.—(Cries of " Hear.") He ssould ask the Government whether it was not possible that something might be done to stop this enormous expen diture that was now going on? Was it not possible to per suade continental states that this absurd system of increased armament ought to be put an end to?—(Hear.) It might be called a Utopian or visionary attempt to make such an essay ; but he was supported in his view by a high authority in that House—by no less an opinion than that of the Right Hoe. Baronet the Member for - Tamworth. In 1841 Sir Robert Peel had made a speech in that House, in which he had spoken to the following effect:—" Is not the time come when the powerful countries of Europe should re duce those military armaments which they have so sedulously raised ? Is not the time come when they should be prepared to declare that there is no use in such over grown establishments? What is the advantage of one power greatly increasing its army or navy ? Does it not see that if it proposes such increase for self-protection aed defence the other Powers would follow its example ? The consequence of this state of things must be that no increase of relative strength will accrue to any one Power, but that there must be a universal consumption of the resources of every country in military preparations. They are, in fact, depriving peace of half its advantages, and anticipating the energies of war whenever they may be required. I do not mean to advocate any romantic notion of each nation trusting with security the professions of its neighbour, but if each country were to commune with itself, and ask, What is at present the danger of foreign invasion, com pared to the danger of producing dissatisfaction and discon tent, and curtailing the comforts of the people by undue taxation ?' the answer must be this, that the danger of aggression is infinitely less than the danger of those suf ferings to which the present exorbitant expenditure must give rise. The interest of. Europe is not that any one country should exercise a peculiar influence; but the true interest of Europe is to come to some one common accord, so as to en able every country to reduce those military armaments which belong to a awe of war rather than of peace.— (Hear, hears) -I-do wish that the councils of every country (or that the public voice and mind, if the councils did not) would willingly propagate such a doctrine." He would ask the House to consider what the proposed amount of 18,000,0001. would represent, which was to be expended in an increased armament ? It would represent no less than 8 000.000 quarters of corn, and the rental of about 1,200,000 houses of the value of 101. The number of houses in all their accessible towns would hardly extend to such an ex pense. The question, therefore, became of the utmost im ortance to men of all parties at the present time. He was far from objecting to the expense of any armament necessary for the protection of our coast or our commerce ; but he maintained that every additional penny of cost incurred was so much thrown into the sea, and was an expen diture which ought not to be sanctioned.—( Hear, hear.) He had observed in the course of the inquiries before the Select Committee on the estimates, that the purposes for which the armaments were kept up, were never properly defined. Lord Auckland had been examined before the Com mittee, and many questions had been put to him as to the rule which guided him in the disposal of our naval force; but to these questions he had never given any intelligible answer. The rule which principally guid e d hi m seeme d to be that we ought to have in every quarter of the world a naval force as great, or greater than that of any other power. For instance, there was a very miserable quarrel in the River Plate, which had led to great waste of money and of diplomacy at Monte Video and Buenos Ayres; and Lord Auckland had kept a British fleet in that region simply because a French fleet had also been stationed there. But surely there was no sense in that. The French might blockade Monte Video, and is - might be desirable to send out an English ship to see that the usual conditions of war were observed during the blockade; but while dealing with a civilised country like France, it was not necessary that a large fleet should be stationed along the coast fur that purpose. Let them look at the naval force we had at pre sent on the Chinese station. We had 25 ships there, whereas in the'year 1805, during the war, we had only 15 ships on that station. We exp or t e d 2,000,0001. worth of goods to China ; but if it were necessary to guard those exports by a fleet which cost 700,0001., we could only lose by such a trade; and if we had enough of it, it would ruin this country.— ( Hear, hear.) Surely we ought to have some better rule for the disposal of our naval force than any which we had hitherto adopted. He should remind the House that at pre sent our trading-vessels were never in danger from pirates. That was an advantage which our forefathers had not pod sessed, for it was only within the, last twenty years that the waters of the world were secure against piratical violence. The extended commerce of this country bad cleared the ocean of pirates, in the same way as the construction of turnpike roads had cleared our rural districts of robbers. He knew that there were Malay prows in the- Indian Archipelago ; but they did not attack our vessels ; they merely attacked each other. We had at present no such danger to meet as that which prevailed when the Algerines were sweeping the Mediterranean with their fleet. In ancient times the Venetians had a regular ship of war to accompany every merchant vessel; but no necessity for such an escort at pre sent existed; and the great powers of Europe were main• taining their armaments simply because they were running a race with each other in a career of folly and extravagance. He confessed that he did not see anything in the state of the world that should prevent our making a pacific overture for a general reduction of the armaments of the great nations of Europe. He had been tauuted on the preceding evening by the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) with not having been a true prophet on the subject of the French revolution. Now he readily admitted that he had not fore , seen a month beforehand an event which such sagacious men as Louis Philippe and M. Guizot had not foreseen at twelve o'clock of the day on which it had happened.—(Hear, hear.) He believed there were very few persons who relied less on predictions than he did. He merely judged of the future from the past and the present; and, looking at the present state of Europe, he thought that we ought to reduce our armaments. He saw in recent events no symptom of a war between the great nations of Europe. On the contrary, he found all nations attempting to settle down according to their several races, religions, and traditions, in order that they might each live at home in peace. The Diet at Frank fort said they wanted to be German ; the Italians said they wished to live alone, although Austria was endeavouring to I defeat that very natural desire. He saw a great guarantee against our being involved in a European war in the fact when one great nation conquered another of different race, language, and religion, that did not benefit them, but was, on the contrary, a source to them of perpetual weakness. No man who knew anything of the state of public feeling in Lombardy and Venetia could doubt that the subjection of those countries by Austria would be a source of embarrass ment rather than of strength to that Power. Let it also be remembered that Princes and Ministers could net now dispose of countries and carve out monarchies es they had done at the Treaty of Vienna. The popular voice was a new element in the arrangement of those matters, and in that -popular voice he saw t a barrier against those wars which had their origin in the ambition of - crowned heads and the quarrels of dynastic intriguers. He believed it would at present be most difficult to induce nations to go to war with each other; but, they should go "to, war, it was clear that a victorious country would only have its strength impaired by territorial aggrandisement. Let the nations of Europe re trace their steps, and begin at length a process of disarming. In this country, and in every other country, was there not a great necessity for reducing the national expenditure, which was at present weighing down the people? How prophetic was the observation of the Right Hon. Baronet the'Member for Tamworth, that there was more danger to be appre hended from a system of oppressive taxation , than from any foreign invasions which was to be' repelled by armaments. The Governments of the Continent had found that arma , ments were no source of strength , in the midst of the discon- tent created by the excessive taxation of the people.—(Hear.) Were we not at present pursuing a course which, as private iudividuals, or as members of any municipality, we should be ashamed to pursue? We were going on with our ex penditure while we had au acknowledged deficit of 1,700,0001. Now, that was the course which nations always ran when in the headlong career of ruin. If they did , not reduce their armaments they could afford no relief to the people. Let them reduce their naval expenditure by 1,000,0001., and they could take off half the tea duty, and that would be the best way to increase our trade with China. He believe.] that this was the time for the English Government to endeavour to induce foreign countries to retrace their steps with us, in order that a reduction might be made, in their and our expenditure. He believed that France was prepared to enter' on such a course; but in any case he should wish that we would set other nations an example of prudence and economy, and he was sure that . that example would be generally followed. The fact was, that France had always set such an example. Having found it stated in the public journals that the French •Go vernment proposed to effect a reduction of 30,000,000 E in their naval expenditure, he had written to a friend of his, a member of the' National Assembly, to ascertain whether or not that statement was correct . ; and the answer he had re- ceived was that M. Goudchaux, who was not any mere than our own Chancellor of the EXchequer encumbered with riches, had issued a circular to all the Government depart ments, stating the reductions which would be necea• sary in the year 1849, in order_to enable hint to make the income of the country equal to its expenditure; and his cir cular to the Minister of Marine required a reduCtion of 30,000,000 f., which reduction could only . be effected by a diminution of the Wench navirforce; or rather, by abandon ing the increased armaments on which the G overnment. had previously reeolved,'as no alteration could be made in the wages of the men employed, or in the contracts that might be entered into. He should glory in finding that our Go vernment had - set to the whole civilised world tke example of reducing its armaments. But we could not set that ex ample to*the whole- civilised world, b2cause Ameri ca had hitherto spent no more than 1,200,0450/. in any one year -on her navy. ' There were in fact more officers in our navy than there were sailors in the navy of America. In conclusiomhe would urge tnd entreat the Government to use some of that diplomacy which had hitherto been devoted to less beneficial purposes, in , endeavouring to - induce _other countries to do what he hoped we should do without de4y—in endeavouring to induce them to retrace their steps,- and to diminish their preparations for aggressive or defensive warfare.—( Hear.) Admiral BOWLES said it appeared to him that the Hon. Gentleman who leacljnst sat down committed a great error in looking at that question merely as a pecuniary one, while he forgot the great advantages we derived from our naval expenditure. It appeared to him that the apprehension created by the state of our - coast - was not unfounded, and that it was such as no Minister ought 'to neglect. There could be no doubt that if a war had broken out suddenly in the year 1844, as it was likely to have done, this country would have been placed in great danger, - and would have been totally unprepared for a sudden attack. That unpre paredness, however, could not be attributed to the Govern ment of the day, but was the result of a system of economy which had prevailed during the ten preceding years, and whichhad rendered it impossible to maintain our fleet in a state of perfect efficiency. It was manifestly desirable that we should increase our steam navy in particular, after the great increase which had taken place in the steam navy of France. The Government of France appeared to think that we had begun to neglect our maritime power, and that if they were largely to increase their steam navy they might acquire at least a temporary naval superiority over this country. They had made, as he thought, very unwise and un justifiable efforts for that purpose, the money they had so spent having contributed, to bring their finances to their present unfortunate conditi on . There• could be no doubt but that if France had consented to diminish her naval force, while we pursued the game course, the result would have been most satisfactory. But France had done the very re verse. 'The Chambers, the Government, and the people seemed to be running a race in preparing for a war with this country. Circumstances had since changed, and he hoped that a better spirit had of late sprung up in France; but he believed no one would deny that while France was . increasing her naval power it became this country to make correeponding exertions.. Such exertions had been made by the Administration of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamwoitle of which he (Admiral Bowles) had bad the honour to be a humble member. He could bear his full testimony to the necessity of the exertions which had then been made by the authorities at the Admi ralty in this country; and he believed that no expense had been incurred in that matter beyend that which was absolutely_ necessary. With respect to the report of the Com mittee on the estimates be should only say that he hoped-het would never again seethe management of the national est.., penditure taken out of the hands of the Government, and - referred to a Committee of that House. There was no doubt but that our naval expenditure' ought to be conducted AS economically as possible, and he certainly believed that that was the opinion of the officers of the navy, who were only anxious that the efficiency of the force should be secured' et the lowest possible cost. But it should not be forgotten that saving and economy were two very different things. lie would recommend his Hon. and Gallant Friends opposite to direct their best consideration to the building, repairing, and altering' of ships, in which" great economy might be ob served.—(Hear, hear.) All the expenses of 'our dockyards were of such magnitude that.thnusands of piunds might in a very short time be unnecessarily expended in repairing of altering vessels. He would recommend to the Admiralty that all alterations and experiments of every kind should be carefully considered by the whole Board, that a minuteihould be made of the reasons for effecting any alteration, and that such matters should not be left solely to that Lord of the Admiralty who might happen to be in communication with the Surveyor to the Navy. He would also suggest that the Surveyor, who was an officer of high rank aid character , should receive a seat at the:Board of Admiralty, where lie might state his own case, instead of having it stated for hial by one of the junior officers. Admiral DUNDAS said that no order was at present gilled by the Board of Admiralty for altering a vessel without consulting the Surveyor, who was called before the Board once or twice every week. Mr. CORRY defended the increase in the salary of the second Secretary. The Hon. Member for Montrose had made a positive statement that the number of theahips o ` s the line was reduced to fifty, but he apprehended that th e Hon. Member merely included those ships which were tit for sea. He rejoiced to hear the result of the experiments with the Blenheim, and he had no doubt in his own mind that within a very few years they would see the screw applied to a v e r y great extent. He had heard with great satisfactioo that no intention existed of reducing the number of flag.offi' cers from 150 to 100, for it would have been one of the mos t unfortunate things which co u ld have happened if effect bit", been given to that recommendation. The very essence o` the retirement system consisted in securing a continual sue, cession of young officers, and if they reduced the flag l i 9 " they would at once go back; to the system of slow promo' Lion. The Hon. Member for Montrose had referred to th . , very great waste o f pu bli c money in injedicious alteration' made in building ships. He (Mr. C.) believed that a eon' siderable saving might be, effected bymeans of judicious re' gulations in this department, and he begged to call attention to the circ umstance, that the last- " Board of Admiralty' b_ ss e'' constituted a 'Commiffee or Scientific men for the expser, purpose of superi n t en di ng t h e instruction of' apprentices 1 " the science of shipbuilding. With regard - to the measure' of the present Board of Admiralty the Committee was we ll aware that, for the purposeof obviating this evil, a new coo° of instructions had been drawn up by the Surveyor of tile Navy, which h a d b een o f great benefit to the service. Is t" course of the present discussion it had been assumed bY, several lion. Members on the other aide of the H o use tha t all the preparations 'made 'by the late Board of Admiralty were adopted under the p ressure o f i mme di ate a l ar m, though France had been about to.invade us on the morn); A more absurd notion it would be i m p oss ibl e t o conce i ve . was quite true that the relations between this country 11 • France at the period in question were net o f th e most plic!'', character, and that great alarm was felt as t o t h e poss ibilit y • of a war. But he begged to call the attention of the CO" mittee to the fact that in 1844, when these steam prepare: tions were taken in hand, the steam-navy in France wis' larger than that of England, though we had a great supsril: rity in our. siding-vessels. - He hoped, notwith s t an ding ti' s peaceful doctrines of the Hon. Member for the West Riding , that her Majesty's Government would not allow France to equal us in the amount of her steam navy. He believed th s s a- more efficient steam navy than that possessed by Gre a s Britain at this moment was not to b e f ound.— (H ear , bear./ The Hon.' Member for the West Riding said that all this 0; penditure had been imposed :on She' country because Friin c ,, and other powers were running a race , t h an w hi c h nothins: could be more absurd. But it.waa not England but Franc; that set the example. It Meg not be forgotten, too, that there existed no means of repairing the boilers of steam' vessels from Liverpool to London, whil e t h ere was sc arce l y s , a port along the whole line of 'the French coast in which steam-vessel would not havciouncl the means of refitting h ad machinery in case of disaster. The Hon. Member had sti" l what he could scarcely believe p oss ibl e , th at t h e cost o f 0" steam navy, and the establishment s t o k eep it i n repa i r , e% , ceeded that of the whole mercantile navy. Mr. COBDEN—I spoke of . theMerc,antile steam navy Mr. CORRY believed that the cost of the merchant stet"' navy was considerably greater thin that of the War nag; Sit-Thomas Hastings est i mate d t h e total horse power of a combined mercantile and steam navy'at 70,000 horses, en said they ought to have the means of repairing this amp° n a v e of horse power. C om pl a i nte. We r e mad e that all our neva establishments w ere regu l ate d w i th the view to a pose be war.. On what other assumptio n were our d e f ences to id regulated ?—( Hear, hear.) He hoped this country YPT I ,„ always trust for her d e f ence rat h er to h er own resources tol—r to the mercy o f o th ers. —( H ear, hear.) The lion. Menl o for the West Riding said F rance was go i ng to disarm. I'o rejoiced to hear it; and if France disarmed, he bad T i t objection that England should disarm too. But it was n ° : as the Hon. M em b er asserted, for this country to set the e x' ample, because there was no o th er g reat power so deficienSlS; the means of military defence. It had been said that 6, l Ar if was fixed in 1833 as the num b er o f teen emp l oye d in %a dockyards; but that was a period of low estimates , 'L., when they had reduced their stores to such a state that th ey had scarcely a spare sail or mast, and a large vote, at a s u s ,, sequent period, was the necessary _consequence of that s sf; B tern. He abstained from entering into a discussion ofssss. report, because the evidence was not yet in the hauls of 11 " - or s Members, but be trusted he should be able, when the rep had bad been printed, to satisfy the House that the meas u sso taken by the late Government in the naval department wises absolutely necessary for the maintenance of the naval W oe mace of this country, which he hoped, notwithstandklfCsa, opinions expressed by the Hon. Member for the West lit e sS`Z, no Government of this country would be prepared to co' don.—(Cheers.) . Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I do not rise for the purs / 5 / of entering into a discussion of the navy estimates tbst, Hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty has don!. _ t ee and my Hon. Friend opposite, who has been concerned in 00 preparation of navy estimates fo r th e l a t e GovernueS W n:. ves i also gone very fully into the subj e ct, a nd, as 1 thineiding satisfactorily. But the Hen. Member for the e-4 ,r. t t oy has laid down certain principles which undoubtedlY slssass be of use to consider, at least, with the view to the l'! . 71 1 ,„ t o tion or e estimates for a future year, and it doese7.eas ine the principal point for discussion on the prese ntee sion. It is impossible now to discuss the report u se6e nt wishes to reduce the actual force of the navy for the Pl rea . year; but certain principles were laid down by the lios.°-! . th e ber for the West Riding, on which I thi n k it importan t f o r the House to bestow some consideration with a view ~, to her _ future basis of our estimates. Ile Honourable, blew R pedi sat pens care disc; pedi Con