The Sun. — London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

TtLE BUN, LONDON, TUESDAY One of their countrymen (Mr. Sturge) went on a depu tation to France the other day. What business he had there he should not say; but the Minister of Finance Slid that no addition should be made to the French navy, and that he was delighted to find England was disposed to remain in peace. His Hon. Friend asked, where was the security for peace? but his answer was—where was the danger of war? His Hon. Friend said they were rich, and should keep up large establishments; but, was not the szpenditure incurred in those establishments an excel lwat method to make the country poor? Over and over again he (Mr. Hume) was requested not to oppose the naval estimates, because it was a popular branch of the service. Well, he consented, but he should take care never to do so again. It was then said, why did you turn round now, after having passed over these votes for years? but his answer was, that they had a full Pocket, and were able to pay their debts; tut now the case was otherwise, and they should not, therefore, be permitted to increase their expenditure. Give us the estimates for this year, said his lion. Friend. No man was more anxious to sustain the public credit than he Was, but it was because he deemed them extravagant he should oppose them. Their deficiency this year was 4,800,0001, or nearly 5,000,0001., and would the Houss permit her Majesty's Government to go into debt without any m ean s of paying it? Indirect taxation cannot be had recourse to, and how then was that deficiency to be paid off, unless by reducing their establishments? The lion. Member then referred to the great and useless expen diture incurred in keeping fleets in the Mediterranean, on the west coast of Africa, in America, in the Pacific, and other parts of the world. He contended that there was no reason for the increase of the navy during the last ten years. In 1842 or 1843, Sir Robert Peel asked for 36,500 sailors, and said that he required this number until the ships returned from the China war; thereby intimating that when the China war terminated, the number of men would be reduced. Yet it appeared that the number of men had increased, year bylyear, up to the present moment. Again, when Sir Robert Peel asked for 1,000,000/. to build a steam navy, it was never intended that they should go on building sailing vessels of war.—(Hear, hear.) We had now, however, in creased war steamers to the extent of ninety six, and yet we were going on increasing the number of our railing ships. The Honourable Member then said he had a statement in his hand which showed the state of the navy from the year 1835 up to the present period. In the year 1835 the number of ships was 167, with 20,000 men. The number of ships of war regu larly increased until last year. In 1847 the number of ships was 266, and this year the number was to be re duced to 235. This being so, he wished to know why they desired to increase the number of men? He con tended upon the whole they could safely reduce the navy by le,ooo men; but he would only ask to reduce the number to 36,000. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the disuse of flogging in the navy, a circumstance which was highly creditable to the officers of the navy, and was an important recognition of the feelings of the public en this subject. He would counsel the Commit tee not to assent to estimates which they could not meet, and here he would undertake to show that the revenue for the lest year was as good as it had been for several years before, and if they had not increased the expen diture of the country—which they did unnecessarily— they would have been enabled to meet the expenditure of the country by the receipts which they derived from the revenue. The Honourable Gentleman then said, that the averege of the revenue of the country, in 1841 and 1842, was 51,800,0001., which was 651,0001. over he expenditure of the country, and that was a surplus exceeding the average surplus for the preceding ten or twelve years. Then, if he took the average income of the country in 1846, he found that it amounted to fifty seven millions and a half, and if they deducted the income-tax from this amount, they would still have a revenue of 52,000,0001., giving a surplus of 241,000/. superior to the expenditure of the country previous to the imposition of the income-tax; so that if they had not increased the charges on the country, they would have been enabled to have met the expenditure by the amount of the revenue received. The lion. Gentleman concluded by moving that the number of men be reduced from 43,000 to 36,000. Mr. CORRY defended the increase which had been made in the navy of late years, and justified the conse quent increase in the number of men, and the amount of the stores. He contended there was no foundation whatever for the charge made by. the Honourable Mem ber for Montrose, that the Government had gone on extravagantly increasing the navy ; and in support of his position he showed that in tile year 1793 the number of ships of the line was 129, and the frigates amounted to 135, while at the present period they re spectively reached but 71 and 90. Having gone at some length into the affairs of the navy, he urged upon the House that the present number of men was not greater than the requirements of the country demanded. He hoped the Committee would give their support to the vote, and that the lion. Member for Montrose would be left in the glorious minority he deserved. Mr. B. COCHRANE based his opposition to the amendment proposed by Mr. Hume on the present aspect of affairs, which he contended were far more threatening and warlike than the lion. Gentleman appeared to ima gine. War, he believed, was almost inevitable in Europe. It might be unwise to say that war was immi nent, but it would be equally untrue to affirm that the date of Yranco was not most menacing towards Europe; end if it one reached this continent, England could not well escape, particularly if such scenes were reverted to as the disgraceful exhibition they had a few days since in the presentation —the disgraceful presentation, he would say—of an address to the Provisional Government of France, by the English residents in Paris. If they did not wish to be embroiled in an European war, their countrymen ought not to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, while the Government remained pas sive. The truest way to prevent war was, in his opinion, to be prepared to meet it.—(Hear, hear.) He should, therefore, support the vote proposed by the lion. Gentle man the Secretary for the Admiralty. Mr. AGLIONBY referred to the manner in which he conceived Captain Warner had been treated with re spect to his invention, and called upon some of the members of the Army, Navy, and Ordnance Committee to explain why it was that a communication which the Gallant Gentleman bad addressed to them, requesting, as the basis for considerable saving, an investigation into the merits of his extraordinary, machine, had not been attended to. Captain Warner, in his opinion, had been very unfairly treated. His proposed instrument of de struction was stated as likely to effect considerable retrenchment in the naval expenditure, an he did not think it becoming that the plan should have been laughed at, or hooted down, without any due or suffi cient inquiry having been made into its capabilities. lie now asked the Committee appointed to consider whether any and what saving could be effected in the army, navy, and ordnance expenditure, whether an intention existed on their part of calling Captain Warner before them for the purpose of testing his statements. Mr. C. BRUCE ridiculed Captain Warner's invention as one of the chimeric fancies of the age, and he then proceeded to a consideration of the policy of the Go vernment with respect to the expenditure. The navy estimates he defended, and expressed his intention of supporting the vote. Sir JAMES GRAHAM did not consider it expedient to follow the Hon. Gentleman in expatiating on the disputed ground of the Ministerial policy respecting the maintenance of protection, the suppression of the slave trade, and the sugar duties ; but, in reply to the inter rogatory of the Honourable Member fur Cockermouth, put to the Army, Ordnance, and Navy Committee, with the view of ascertaining their intention as to an exami nation of Captain Warner and his invention, he denied that any discourtesy had been either intended or offered to that gentleman by the Noble Lord the Chairman of the Committee. The Committee was appointed to con sider whether any saving could be effected in the army, navy, and ordnance expenditure; and he thought he might tell his Honourable Friend, that the Com mittee, constituted as it was of nearly all non-pro fessional men, did not deem it their duty to investi gate the subject of Captain Warner's claim. The noble Lord, he fancied, had already, on more occasions than one, answered this question. He (Sir James Graham) regretted that this discussion on the im portant subject of voting supplies for the mainte nance of an efficiatat navy should appear to degene• rate into matter Gt detail. He thought the decision to which the House night come was fraught with great and mighty consequences, and he hoped that the introduction of matters of minor importance into the discussion would not draw the attention of Hon. Gentleman from the real question bt fore the House.—(llear.) When he came down to the House he confessed he did not do so prepared to be put upon his defence, as he little expected that his, Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty would have characterised the administration of the Admiralty during the years from 1831 to 1834, at which time he (Sir James Graham) was at the head of it, as he had done. His Honourable Friend had said that, when.he left the Admiralty Board at that time, the naval arsenals and dockyards were, in a great measure, left unprovided for, and he confessed that for some time he thought that the lion. Gentleman had allowed the expression to drop from him in an unguarded manner ; but as he had repeated i t several times over, no doubt was left ultimately as to his sincerity in making the assertion. Now, at that time, it ho recollected rightly, his lion. Friend was a Member in the House, and being so, he could not fail to recollect that, when at that time these accusations were made against him (Sir James Graham), as head of the. Admiralty Board under Earl Grey's Government, he made a statement in answer to the accusations pre ferred, which, so far as the opinion of the House could be ascertained, disposed of the subject most satisfacto rily.—(Hear, hear.) The present colleagues of his lion. Friend were perfectly satisfied with his explanation. The Noble Lord at the head of the present Government was so, and he could not help feeling astonished that his Hon. Friend should have, at the present time, at all adverted to the subject. At that time he showed most satisfactorily that, with respect to all articles which were of an imperishable nature, and which did not become useless by time, he had added considerably to the number, and thereby increased the strength and efficiency of that branch of the service, while he admitted that a reduction had been made in all articles required for the service ,of a perishable nature, on the ground that unless the exigencies of the service at the time actually required these, there was no use of storing them up, as from being so for a ny length of time, they became unfit for use, so that the money expended on them was as much money thrown away.—(Hear, hear.) ,At that time then, as he had stated, he satisfied the House on that point. Since then he had not looked much into naval matters, and he did not wish to pursue.that subject, referred to by his Hon. Friend, any further, although he could satisfy the . House now as he did then, that the charge, in 1834, of leaving their dockyards and arsenals deficient of stores, was not true.—(Hear, hear.) In regard to the estimates before the House, he could not help thinking that, al though his Hon. Friend; had submitted it as a peace ritimate, his mode of enforcing it was somewhat pug- nacious—(Hear, hear, and laughter)--for while he had ' attached him in the manner he had alluded to , he had at the same time not only proposed the nevy estimates for the present year, but he had actually proposed those for the ensuing year, and had in consequence, cut off all use for any inquiry into the navy estimates, by the Co mmittee appointed for that purpose. The Hon. Gentle man had told the House. on the authority of Lord Auck land, that on the navy estimates for the ensuing years 1849 50, a saving of 600,0001. could be effected, and that being the ease, what was the use of any Committee investigating into the subject, as the whole matter of effecting a saving in these estimates lay with the Go vernment, and unless the Government carried such out, it would never be done. Therefore, if Government was to abide by the estimate for the pi esent year, and said that no saving could be effected, and that next year a saving would be effected to the amount he had stated, but to no greater or less extent, he must say, if such was the determination of the Government, he for one should utterly despond of any good result flowing from any investigation of a Committee of that House into the subject of these estimates.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had told the House that he had placed this question of naval expenditure upon the same footing as it had been placed by the late and previous Governments. He had told them that Sir Robert Peel's Government, from 1841 up to 1846, had year after year asked for and obtained an increase in these estimates, and had argued that if, in the then circumstances of the country, an in crease in these estimates was allowed, much more now, in the present circumstances of the country, ought their - expenditure in that respect to be progressive.—(Hear, hear.) He had also contended that if the Government of Lord Grey required at one period to increase their esti mates, much more now, in the altered circumstances of the country, was the present Government justified in doing so. Let the House, however, refer to the facts of the case. When Sir Robert Peel's Government came into power, in 1841, they found the China war com menced—imperfectly commenced—" dragging its slow length along"—not likely soon to be concluded—and the Government took active and immediate measures to bring it to a conclusion; and he was happy to say that these had the effect of doing so in the most satisfactory manner. But these measures were attended with great expense, which necessarily caused an addition to the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) So much then for the estimates of 1842. In regard to 1844, the middle year of the Right Honourable Baronet's Government, it was well known that during that year a very serious misunderstanding took place between the Government of this country and the French Government in regard to Otaheite, so that it was found necessary to keep up their naval force, and in some degree to augment it, in case of an outbreak. Then, in regard to the esti mates of 1846 being the highest naval estimates which the Government of Sir Robert reel moved far, were there no circumstances which led to an increase being then demanded? Why, he could state to the House that the very last official act of his Right Hon. Friend, when he brought his statement, after giving in his re signation to her Majesty, was the laying upon the table documents to satisfy the House that the long-pending dispute between this country and the United States ct America, with respect to the Oregon territory, had been finally and satisfactorily settled.—(Cheers.) So long as that dispute was pending the country was obliged to keep up a large naval force; and especially in the year 1846, when it was feared that the dispute would give rise to an outbreak between the two countries; anti in fact as regarded all naval estimates, the amount was to be judged of from the circumstances of the times in which they were voted, and from the just amount of force which the exigencies of those times required. That then had brought him to the circumstances in which they were at present placed, and to the consideration of the estimate before the House. No doubt, in regard to these, her Majesty's Government was involved in considerable difficulty, and, from the nature of events they;had to deal with, were obliged to observe much caution and reserve, for, in fact, the voting those estimates from year to year did resolve itself more or less into a vote of confidence in the Government of the day.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government, when he first introduced the subject of these estimates to the notice of the House, did in the most manly, plain, and candid manner open up to the House the peculiar circumstances in which the country was then placed, and the statement of them made by the Noble Lord confirmed him in the belief' that the naval force sought for by the Noble Lord was net larger than the safety and the interest of the country demanded. — (Hear, hear.) That was the view he took at the time the Noble Lord made his statement, and he, as an indi vidual Member of the House, would exercise his privilege of stating his individual opinion in regard to those cir cumstances as they then stood, although Government might, from matters of policy, be deterred from doing so in so detailed a manner. He concurred that a con tinental power--France, for instance—which had a large standing army, was absolutely necessary for the safety of the State, and that the fact of such powers keeping up large standing armies was not in the least calculated to excite jealousy on the part of Great Britain. —(Hear, hear.) On the other hand, any great naval preparations on the part of France, she not having many colonies to guard or to protect, and having no use for any great display of naval power, was calculated to have a different tendency; and, therefore, any great naval ex penditure on the part of that country, whether in regard to ships, the construction of ports, or of defences in the Channel, would not appenr a defensive policy. For him self, he could not fail to regard it as an offensive policy, hell calculated not only to excite the jealously of Go vernment, but to excite the patriotism of the representa tives of the people in that House.—(Cheers.) He con fessed that the misunderstanding in 1844 which arose between France and this country was greatly aggravated by the publication of a pamphlet, on the steam marine of France, by one of the sons of the late Rine of that country, and the suggestions thrown out in which were adopted for the most part by the French Government. At that time immense naval preparations were made by France. War-steamers innumerable were built, and a large number of line-of-battle ships, while the harbours and defences along the Channel were extensively repaired and strengthened.— ( Hear, hear.) Now, in such circumstances as that, he did think Government would have been neglecting its duty, and would have been guilty of risking the honour and the independence of this country if they had failed to protest against this reckless expenditure, and the ex tensive display of naval power on the part of France.— (Loud cheers.) In a time of profound peace, it that system was persisted in on the part of France, he could not see how some preparation was not to be made on the part of this country, in order to meet it.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had stated the exact case. He had said that were a war arising between the two countries, a new element must be introduced to it, in consequence of the number of war steamers now afloat. France had not only prepared a large number of steam-vessels, which gave her extensive means of communication, with which she could sweep the Channel, and convey troops; but she had to all her principal ports in the Channel, lines of railway, communicating with the interior of the country, where she had a large standing army stationed, and which could by such means, if called on to act, be conveyed to this country with the least possible delay. —tHear, hear.) They must recollect also that a country acting on the offensive had an opportunity of concentrat ing its forces, which a country acting on the defensive had not, as the latter must dispose of its forces so as to be prepared for an attack on those points which it con oeived the enemy was most likely to operate against ; and as it was on the defence that Britain always stood, he was satisfied that were France to attempt an attack on this country, the battle of the national dependence would not be fought in the British Channel by their ships of war, but on the soil of their own country. — (Hear, hear.) lie did, therefore, think that the course proposed by the Noble Lord, at the time it was proposed, was the one which circumstances required should be followed.—(Hear.) lie would not now go into a discus. sion as to the altered circumstances which had since taken place.—(Hear.) His prayer was that the peace of the world might be maintained.—(Hear.) His be lief was, that by the power of British influence it would be maintained; but he would say this, that if it was con sidered unwise a month ago to diminish the naval force, this was not the time that the right arm of their strength Ought to be paralysed or shortened in the least degree.— (Cheers.) He had said thus much with regard to the number of men, though, with regard to the amount of the estimates, he considered that after due consideration a slight reduction might be made.—(Hear, hear.) If these estimates were submitted to a full investigation he was certain that, without diminishing a man, a reduction could be made in them. He should continue to do his duty on the Committee which had been ap pointed for the consideration of them, and he was sure that Committee would endeavour to reduce not only the navy, but also the army estimates; and he was more sanguine than his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Ad miralty as to the saving they would be enabled to effect. That saving must, however, be carried out by the Government, and he had no doubt but that the Government would do their best to carry out any saving the Committee might point out as likely to be effected. In regard to the distribution of their naval force, the squadron in the Tages•had been much talked of; and in regard to that station, he could not help stating a fact which, if coming from himself, might be of little consequence, but coming from the au thority it did, he considered it to be worthy of all re spect. Ho well remembered Sir Thomas Hardy telling him, as the result of observations and surveys made by himself and Lord Nelson, that the Tagus was regarded in this country as the most important naval station in Europe.--(Cheers.) That for all purposes of defence it was far superior to the Cove of Cork, for while on the one side it commanded the Gut of Gibraltar, on the other it jutted out to the west, and protected their West India islands, while it rendered the chops of the Channel almost invulnerable.—(llear, hear.) No station was better available fur Mediterranean or Channel service, and therefore it ought never to be without a squadron stationed ie it. With respect to the squadron on the coast of Africa, he thought that was a question which might deserve consideration.—(Hear, hear.) There was also a considerable force in the River plate, and iii both of these reductions might be made, but they could not be so all at once. It required time to do so, and he had no doubt but, in the course of the year, Go vernment might make some safe reductions, without at all endangering the efficiency of the force.—(Hear, hear.) While, therefore, upon the whole, he thought that, in the course of some time, a reduction might be made in the estimates, he could not at present consent to the reduction of a single man.—(Cheers.) Mr. WARD explained that, in the remarks he made, he had not the least intention of superseding the labours of the Committee of which the Right Hon. Baronet was so efficient a member ; and he was sure Government would do their best to carry out any suggestions the Committee might make to them.—(Hear, hoar.) Lord SEYMOUR said he was as anxious to keep down expenditure as any one, but he thought this was not the ments. time to make any reduction in the army or navy depart- --- ViscountlNGEsTrE and Mr. COBDEN rose at the same time. There were loud calls for the latter, but he gave way to Viscount INGESTRE, who said, as he belonged to the profession which was under the discussion of the House, he did not like to give a silent vote on the sub ject. The question they had to consider was not one of detail, but of national policy as to whether they were to retain intact that great arm of their power, the navy. He thought no reduction ought to take place, and, not withstanding the depression of the country at the pre sent time, he was sure the country would not submit to any reduction considering the commotions which were taking place throughout, Europe.—(Hear.) He espe cially advised the Government, if they meant to main tain the navy in an efficient state, that they should not tamper with the navigation laws. The mercantile ma rine was the source upon which we must always mainly depend for the proper manning of the navy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the inventions of Captain War ner, he had upon full investigation come to the con clusion that the adoption of these inventions would not only be a saving of a great deal of money, but prevent the effusion of a vast deal of bloodshed. He believed that if the question was fairly inquired into this would be found to be the case. He challenged any man in the House or the country to say that the destruction of the ship at Brighton was not conducted fairly and honourably, and that, of course, similar results could not in future r be easily produced.—(Cheers, and " Oh.") His Lordship proceeded to read a letter from Captain Warner, stating his readiness to be examined on oath before a Committee of the House, and would undertake to show how a saving of upwards of 3,000,0001. might be effected in the navy alone.--(A laugh.) That letter showed how anxious that individual was for a fair in vestigation, and he should feel himself wanting in his duty if he did not manfully support a man who he be lieved could render serious benefits to his country. The Noble Lord, after expressing his determination to sup port the Government in its measures to preserve the force necessary for the security of property and the maintenance of our free institutions, said, before he sat down, he must notiee the remarks of the Hon. Member for the West Riding, as to the distribution of the navy and the conduct of the officers. He trusted the lion. Member had not been correctly reported, as respected the officers, who were admitted by all who knew them, and even by that consistent politician who had intro duced this motion, to do their duty manfully and faith fully to their country.—(Hear.) Mr. COBDEN entered his protest against the doc trine laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, a doctrine which had been asserted on a former night by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth—that the Executive Government was alone responsible to the country for the amount of the army and navy estimates. The House had more than once heard taunts from the Government, when the expendi ture had been complained of, that it was by their votes alone that the Ministry had been enabled to incur so large an amount of expenditure; and when the Ministry were called to account for the extravagant demands which they made upon the public purse ; they threw the responsibility of having incurred those demands upon the House. But now that the Right Hon. Barnet the Member for Ripon desired to find an excuse for the vote he was about to give, he transferred the responsibility from the House to the Executive Government. If that doctrine was correct. it the Ministry alone were respon sible for the amount of the estimates, the doors of that House would at once be shut and every Member might go home for any use he was there. He also protested against another of the Right Hon. Baronet's dogmas, that the Par liament had no right to know the reason which the Go vernment had for concealing the real state of affairs. (Oh!) If there were secrets,: let the House know what they were.—(Laughter, and hear.) He wished to be informed of the reasons why the House was called upon to vote large sums of money; and so far from thinking secresy any advantage, or that any good resulted from leaving so much power in the hands of the Foreign Secretary, he was:of opinion that it would bo the wisest plan to let all the world know what England was doing in this re spect. The daily press prevented there being any great amount of secresy in foreign affairs, and it was in vain to attempt to involve them in mystery.—(Hear, hear.) But there were always plenty of reasons to be had when an increase of expense was to be justified. In the year 1837 the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Halifax told the House that Russia was about to in vade England, and that an increase in the navy esti mates was necessary. The increase was voted, and then no more was heard of Russian invasion. In 1840, the miserable affair of Syria was urged as the plea for increased naval expenditure. In 1842, China formed a fresh pretext for the extravagance of the Government; and, in 1846, an additional vote was asked for the navy on the plea that America was to be apprehended. Ho passed over the miserable pretext afford by the affair of Otaheite, in which Mr. Pritchard was involved. But whatever was the amount of increase in the expenditure there were always plenty of reasons to justify it. What he wished to draw attention to was, that let the House once give its assent to an increase of expenditure, there was never any effort made to reduce that excess to the former state of affairs. There was now no danger to be appre hended anywhere.—(" Oh, oh.") The House ought to bear in mind that at the time the estimates now before them were framed there had been not the smallest reason for apprehending that a revolution would break out in France, or that Louis Philippe would not be on the French throne. On the former occasion the Montpen sier marriage ' and a pamphlet issued by one of the sons of the French King had been urged as reasons for appre hending danger ; but now there existed no such reasons, nor could any fear be entertained of an invasion on the part of the Prince de Joinville. And yet, notwithstand ing the groundlessness of the former excesses, it was now urged—es if merely to show that an excuse could never be wanting—that France might invade England, and therefore preparations for defence must be made. France had a great deal too much to do at home to be able to entertain any such designs as were attributed to her. But another reason for maintaining the present rate of naval expenditure was that the British ships of war were indispensable for the protection of the com merce of England in foreign countries. In what man ner did the British navy protect the commerce of England? The ships of war never carried on any commerce—nor was the commerce of the Mediterra nean carried on by English merchants. The chief merchants engaged in the commerce of Europe were Greeks, Germans, and Italians. ' Ho would prove this fact by moving for returns from the British consuls in the Mediterranean Sea and on the coast of Portugal, showing the number of English merchants engaged in commerce in those parts. Those returns would incontestably prove that the English merchants were few in number, and that they were daily diminishing and giving place to others. But that would not show that the amount of exports from England diminished along with the number of English merchants. The goods exported to the Mediterranean and Portugal were consigned to foreign merchants, to Greeks, Ger mans, and Swiss—all of whom carried on their transac tions without the protection of a naval force.—((fear, hear.) Could it be pretended that the British navy was required in order to protect that species of commerce; or, on the other hand, was it pretended that British ships of war were necessary to put down piracy. Why, steam had done that for pirates which the mail cone les for merly effected in the cases of highwaymen.—(" Oh," and " No.") He maintained that there were no pirates in the Mediterranean.—(" Oh, oh.") There were still to be found prahus in the Eastern seas, but no pirates were to be found in the Mediterranean, and yet a naval force was stationed there, the expenditure of which was greater than the profits of the manufactures and the whole amount of the freights of the British ships en gaged in trade, put together.—(Oh, oh.) So much for the commercial side of the question. With respect to political reasons advanced for maintaining the naval forces, the House was constantly told that it was indis pensable for England to place herself upon a level with all other foreign powers, in so far as her navy was con cerned. Now, the only powers that Englandcould regard as being on the same level with herself in a naval point of view were France and America, and in adverting to this subject he must express his regret at the tone of the speech made by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member foe' Ripon. He examined a file of the Moniteur, in order to ascertain what had been said in the French Chamber respecting the British navy. It might be all eery well for Members of that House to talk compla cently of the naval supremacy of Great Britain, but was it not to be expected that in the teeth of such language France and America should also put forward their claims to be ranked as high as England? In the reports of the speeches contained in the Monideur of 1846, on the sub ject of the proposed increase of the French navy, when the report of the Committee appointed to examine into the question was brought before the Chamber, the Mi nister had already augmented the original estimates, and even that augmentation did not equal the demands of the Deputies, and 93,000,000 francs wore w added to the eesimate. What were the arguments urged in defence of this augmentation?—Monsieur Thiers, in his speech 1 on the occasion, delivered on the 15th of April, 1846, said:— " We pay England the compliment of thinking of her, and her only, when we discuss the question of our navy; we do not trouble ourselves about the fleets which sail out of Trieste or Venice; we think only of the ships which leave Plymouth or Portsmouth. Now, what are the naval forces of England? It is generally said that when she has put forth her greatest strength, they have amounted to 100 vessels of the line. If you examine the facts you will find that she has never had 100 vessels out of port; she has had but 80. But on a future occa sion I think she would have more—perhaps 100. . . , When you speak of 36 ships in the face of 80 or 100 it seems to me a farce. It is true the Minister has raised the proposition to 44; but even ho can hardly bo serious. . . . If he had said France will aim at having 60 ships I should have understood him. I think, that with 60 vessels against a nation with 80 or 100, but with a mech larger space to cover, it would be possible for us to maintain an honourable struggle." One feature of the debate from which he quoted was, that even the most exalted of the French orators never assumed for one moment that France could pretend to be able to put herself upon an equality with England in so far as her naval power was concerned. To demonstrate this, be would quote the observations made by another of the Deputies on the same day that M. Thiers had made his speech, namely the 13th of April, 1846. The speaker was Monsieur Ducos, who said:— " England, which we may be permitted to view, if not as a model, at least as a guide, in spite of the 112 vessels of war of from 70 to 120 guns which she keeps afloat, in spite of the immense development which she has given to her steam navy, England stiil continues to construct more vessels of the largest dimensions. At this moment she has upon the stocks 13 ships of from 70 toll2o guns, besides a considerable number of frigates calculated to carry a powerful artillery. * * * God forbid, gentlemen, that I should so:far allow myself to be led away u to demand from Frahce the sacrifices of men and money necessary for the creation of a fleet equal in force to that of England. I know that we are not like Great Britain, exclusively a maritime power; but I think I am within the limits of a wise policy in begging the Chamber not to allow itself to be carried away by pros pects which, however pleasing, may be deceptive, and are assuredly very far distant. I introat it not to reduce the number of our vessels whilst England preserves hers, and even augments the number." And the same sentiments were expressed by Mons. Hernoux, who, on the part of the Committee, in opposi tion to the increase of the armaments, said: " In the great lottery of force and of chance, on which side will the ad►antage rest?-0n the side of the most numerous. Now, can we pretend to establish a navy as numerous as that of England? If to-morrow, we had 100 vessels, the day after, England would have 200.' ' Mona. de Lamartine also spoke during the debate, and he would read an extract from the report contained in the Illonitcur of that distinguished person's speech : " England has not less than 700 vessels of war, with which she could cover the two oceans, at the command of her Admiralty. Everybody knows that as respects those steamers,;with which we think ourselves suffi ciently armed in adding 38 to our 72, England has 500 merchant steam-boats which she could, in case of war, arm and let loose upon the ocean. . . . I confess that to-day for the first time in my life I have thought with susceptibility, I had almost said with jealousy, of England. Yes, at the moment when, after three days' debate, R e are coming to this great vote, I say to myself and I say to my colleagues, it is proposed to diminish the budget of the navy, that budget which in all ages has been deemed to belong to the very nature and desti nies of France—it is proposed not merely to weaken, but to paralyse the only army with which we might perhaps one . day have to encounter England upon the ocean." The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) would perhaps recollect that a few years ago the Admiralty had given ordors to cut down some line-of battle ships, in order to convert them into coast-guard ships. In a report which was made upon this sub ject by the Baron Charles Dupin, he (Mr. Cobden) found the following observations addressed by that gentleman to the French Chamber of Peers on the 15th of June, 1846. After giving a detailed account of a plan determined upon by the British Government for converting four line-of-battle ships, and four frigates into steam-ships carrying 312 guns and bombs of the largest calibre, the Baron concluded with the following observations : . _ "If we compare this destructive force with the most formidable batteries ever employed by armies on land to burn fortified towns or batter down buildings, we shall know what to think of an - armament got up under the inoffensive and defensive designation of steam coast guard vessels. It is for France an indispensable neces sity to complete an arnament of the same kind and of equal force, so that we may have nothing to fear for the future, should it so happen that we have a misunder standing with England." He would now come to a part of the question more im mediately interesting to the House. On the 26th of February, 1847, the Hon. Member for Sheffield brought the naval estimates under the consideration of the House, and, after quoting from the report of the Minister of Marine is France, made in 1846, recommending the building of new ships, he said : " The great object of this increased expenditure was, that France might increase the number of her ships from 359, which they were in 1846, to 390, which was what they intended to be. Now, he found no fault with France for these things. France did what she thought right and necessary for the maintenance of her position. She set us, in many respects, a noble example. He ad mired the wise and systematic liberality with which her great naval works had been carried on from year to year till she had compensated herself for the great na tural disadvantages under which she laboured along the whole coast of the Channel." He then went into particulars of the magnificent works going on at Dunkirk, Havre, Calais, &c., described the dockyard at Cherbourg, containing 231 acres and 16 building slips, and quoted the case of Brest, whose smithy contained 127 fires, whilst that at Portsmouth had only 48. The Hon. Member wound up his state ment by stating : " These facts, it appeared to him, ought to be a lesson to us. They imposed a very . heavy responsibility on those who were in power in this country. It behoved them to take care, by the proper development of our resources in times of peace, to prevent the balance of power being changed in time of war." —(Hear, hear.) Now if any proof were wanting that England had led the way step by step to the enormous augmentation of the naval forces of France, it would be found in the fact that the English Government had sub sidised the ship-builders in order to get them to construct steamers for the ostensible purposes of form ing a line of communication with America, and these vessels were to be constructed upon such plans and scale as to enable the Government to take them and convert them into war steamers in the event of a war.—(oh! and hear, hear.) He had the statement of the Hon. Member for Sheffield as a guarantee of the assertion which he had made. The steamer's employed on Cunard's line, and those also engaged in the trans mission of the 'West India mails, were all of them con structed upon the principles laid down by the Hon. Member in his former statement, and since that plan had been adopted by England, France had followed it, and the President of the United States of America had done the same thing, by advancing the sum of 200,000 dollars for the purpose of constructing steam war packets. If the matter was not so serious in itself, there was enough to make him laugh at the imbecility of foreign nations. He could not but draw the conclu sion, from all the facts he had stated, that there was no desire in high quarters to diminish the war expenditure of the nation.—(Oh, and hear, hear.) The allusion made by the Hon. Member for Sheffield to America was not a fortunate one. The United States had existed as an independent power for the period of sixty-seven years, and during that time they had been engaged for four years in a war. The American naval estimates, in 1845, were 1,200,000/., or 6,000,000 dollars —one-half or two-thirds of the naval estimates of Great Britain. What was the whol e am oun t of the estimates of the American Cabinet during the years in which they e ere engaged in . war ? Only 11,000,000 L, and this sum included the mil itary and naval expenditure, the salary of the President, and the allowances made to all the foreign ambassadors, as well as every other charge. The whole did not amount to two-thirds of the cost of the establishment and civil list of Great Britain during a time of profound peace. The Noble Lord the Member for Staffordshire had taunted hi m (M r. C o bd en ) w ith some o b serva tions which had fallen from him on a former occa sion in another place. He must admit that he had been correctly reported on the occasion referred to. He did not meats to be offensive to any persons when he said that Valetta was a skulking hole for the navy, and the Noble Lord would understand that this observation was exclusively meant for the nauticals. But he must state that he had risited Malta at two different periods of the year, in March and in November, and ho had on both occasions observed a vast assemblage of ships and sailors without, at the same tirn,e observing any corresponding advantage which they conferred. He had been told that drunkenness prevailed amongst the sailors. He had himself seen the Jack Tars galloping round the island upon asses.—(Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant Member for Tamworth complained that he had misre presented these crews and their officers, because he had stated that there sea , a greater amount of idleness and demoralisation exhibited on board ships of war than could be seen in the same space any where else on the face of the earth. He repeated his assertion, and contended that you could not have 800 or 1,000 men on board a 120-gun ship for any length of time without their becoming demoralised and idle.— (ls es e, hear.) Supp ose you h a d a f ac tory, with 1,000 hands coming in every morning and going away in the evening, without a wheel being turned or spindle set in motion, how long would they remain without be coming demoralised! The occupation of our fleets in the n the Mediterran ean is really thi s . They lay up in ordi nary in winter , and in summer they went on an excur sion round Sicily, sometimes as far as Athens, and some times to Smyrna, coming back after a cruise of six months to Valetta to lay up. The officers went to this clubs, or on leave to Sicily, while the lieutenants and men left on board were put to their wits' end to find something to do. They hauled up the sails, then pulled them down, and that, with scrubbing the decks, formed the ordinary routine of Mediterranean duty. He begged Hon. Members who were discontented with his state ments not to lose their time taunting him, but to con tradict his facts. Let them disprove what he raid, and to enable there to do so, let them look to their navy list, and see where the ships were stationed in Decem ber, January, and February, and wh ere i n M ay, J une, and July. Now, with regard to the force in the Tagus, the Right Hon. Baronet the, Member for Ripon had defended it by quoting Nelsons opinion as to the eligi bility of the station. He was willing to tak e that opinion for what it was worth, but had the squadron lately stationed there been intended for the West Indies? He had understood they were sent there b y our F ore i gn Minister, to be placed at the disposal of the Queen of Portugal.—(Hear, hear.) And there it would be seen, by the return for which be bad moved, they had lain month after month doing nothing. C ou ld anyt hi ng b e more demoralising, in such a climate and close to such a city?—(Hear, hear.) Those who had been in Lisbon would admit that it was not the . purest of all spots in which to locate 'five thousand idle men.—(Hear, hear.) So far from ther e bein g an y exaggeration in was a current joke his statements, he believed t h ere among the sailors, that one of the line-of-battle ships bad gone aground on the beef bones which had been thrown over her side.—(Laught er. ) Now, he contended that we had no right to tax the artisans and people of this country who consumed the sugar, and coffee, and tea, for the purpose of sending a fleet lar ger , than th e w h o l e o f the American navy, to lie in the Ta gus , at the disposal of the Queen of Portugal, and to do more h arm than good. It might have been good to send th e fl eet t h ere . lie took the argument for what it was worth; but if it was worth anything, why had the fleet b een so sud d en l y withdrawn? Tre sometim es fancied .that the b roa d s id e be had fired from the free trade hall in Manchester, had dispersed them.—(Laughter.) (An Hon. Member, "They're in Cork.") We ll, he hoped they were better . employed than they had been n Portugal. He now came to this important question; they were going to vote 7,500,000/. u s was perfectly prepared for it, he believed that for that large estimate Govern ment was no more to blame than the electors or the country.—(Hear, hear.) lie would be very candid, be had been the first to raise an outcry again s t it in November last, end he wa s censured in all quarters for his conduct. He would do Ministers the justice to say, that he was censured on all hands, in the newspapers, among public men, and eve rywhere he was t o ld th a t he was wrong in opposing increased armaments. But the very parties who had so censured him, were the very men, when the Ministers brought in their Bill, to turn sharp round and call them a profligate Ministry. Ia his opluicu Ministers had been exceedingly EVENING, MARCH 21, 1848. in the matter. He took no blame to himself. In 1835, when our navy was at the lowest, he made his first ap pearance in public life by writing pamphlets against increased armaments. But they now came to the ques tion—how was the money to be raised?—(Hear, hear.) They were in a serious dilemma respecting it. It was proposed to do it by an increased income-tax, and he would say very frankly to the country, that if the ex penditure must be carried on, he would vote that it be paid by the men of 1501. a year and upwards, rather than that the working classes should be taxed another farthing.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the masses had no fear of invasion. They laughed at it. The peasant working at his plough, or the weaver at his loom, never felt any alarm. It was the genteel and timid classes of the country who wanted this protection, and he would say, if they would have it, let them pay for it.---(Cheers.) But what a lesson did the present state of Europe read to us as to the result of these vast armaments? Every post brought accounts of the march of revolution throughout Europe, and the primary cause of all this was, no doubt, the heavy burdens, the material suffering and oppressions of the people.—(Hear, hear.) It would have been better if a remedy could have been found other than revolution, but there was no doubt but that the principal cause was the heavy expense, parti cularly for army, navy, and ordnance. There was in the United States a writer, Mr. Charles Sumner, who had published a work to prove that the standing armies of Europe, cost 200,000,0001. a year, together with the withdrawal of 2,000,000 of men in the fo yer of manhood from industrial pursuits, involving a loss of 60,000,000/. more. Two millions of people were alleged by this writer to be absorbed by the monastic institu tions, but he (Mr. Cobden) wanted to know what dif ference was there between keeping two millions of men idle in red coats and keeping them in black? They had equally to be supported, the result was disaster to the finances, and such a state of things must always lead to revolution.—(Hear.) He was anxious that they should take this matter in hand in time. He believed that great disasters threatened this country in financial affairs. They talked of borrowiag from the reserve fund. Then they must borrow from the Bank, and then came Bank disaster and a panic. He believed most of the panics had arisen from the illicit intercourse carried on between the Bank and the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Then they had the danger of a bad harvest, for such an event was always on the cards. He maintained that the danger of invasion was not half so great as the danger to be apprehended from a disordered state of the finances. Our present embarrassments did not arise from any falling off in the revenue, but from our inordinate expenditure. He wished that Hon. Gentlemen would pluck up courage against foreign foes, but also that they would at the same time have courage to face our financial difficulties. He had no fear whatever of invasion from without ; he did not think that any one would assault us; but the state of our finances afforded him ground for apprehension. If we could increase our strength in that department—if we could only add to the number of prosperous people, at the same time diminishing the number of our paupers and sailors, we should be taking the best means of securing the permanent welfare of the country. Admiral DUNDAS said he could not lose a moment in noticing the statements which had been put forward by the Hon. Member for the West Riding respecting our squadron in the Mediterranean. He held in his hand a letter from Admiral Parker, in which, after quoting the observation of the Honourable Member, to the effect that the American Consul had criticised the discipline of our ships, the writer proceeded to say, " The American Consul writes to say that he has had no sort of intercourse with nor has he seen Mr. Cob den for ten years."—(Opposition cheers.) His (Admiral Dundas's) Gallant Friend was also totally at a loss to know what ship it was which had remained in Malta throughout the whole of the Hon. Member's cruise to Sicily and back. He did not think the House would expect him further to defend the charactera of Admirals Napier and Parker on the discipline carried on on board their squadrons.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. (,OBDEN—The Gallant Admiral says what is true—that it is ten years since I was in Malta; but it is also true that I never said anything else.—(" Oh, oh," from the Opposition.) It would be the last thing which a man so notorious in his movements as I have been would think of.—(lnterruption, and cries of " Oh, oh 1") I believe that almost every town I visited was duly chronicled in the newspapers.—(Hear, hear.) But I was in Malta in the winter of 1636 and the spring of 1837, and I again repeat what I have said on the subject. Don't tell me of the characters of Gallant Ad mirals—we have all got good characters, I hope; but I ask whether or no my facts are correct?—(Hear, hear.) The American Consul could not deny that he went in the steamer with me from Malta to Greece, or that we were four days together in the same vessel.—(Hear, hear.) We have heard a great deal of the character Of the two services. I tell them that I look upon them in the same light as I would any other profession; they don't work for nothing, as the seventeen millions in the estimates will testify, and their conduct forms as fair a subject for criticism as if they were barristers or phy sicians. Admiral DUNDAS said that he held in his hand an extract from the Hon. Member's speech in Manchester, and the Hon. Member's words were : " I was at Malta at the commencement of the winter, in the month of November. While I was there one of our ships of the line arrived from Portsmouth : it had come direct: it had left England with a crew of 1,000 hands, and arrived in the harbour of Valetta with 999, one person having died on the passage. It went, as I say, into the harbour of Valetta, and there it remained while I travelled from Malta to Naples, thence to Egypt and to Greece; and when I returned to Malta there was the vessel lying in the harbour of Valetta still. Her chief officers had gone on shore to live in the clubs, and the subs and rest of the crew found the utmost difficulty in keeping up even the appearance of a pretence to use ful employment, in hoisting up the sails and taking them down again, and in scrubbing the decks.—(Laughter.) Well, I was introduced, as it happened, to the American Consul at Malta, and he spoke to me on the subject. He said, We Americans consider your navy to be very slack."' In answer to this the Consul wrote to say, that he had not seen the Hon. Member for ten years.—(Hear.) Colonel TYNTE said that a relation of his, who was in the navy, had returned on the previous night from Lisbon, and had told him that the strict discipline of the squadron there was the topic of general conversation. Lord PALMERSTON said that he did not rise to defend the British navy—" the blood of Douglas could protect itself." The high character which our navy had acquired, and the brilliant discipline it had attained, and which was never more remarkable than at the pre sent moment, would secure for it the respect and admi ration of all whose knowledge of it was not, like that of the lion. Member for the West Riding, confined to a period of ton years.—(Hear, and cheers.) With re gard to the question more immediately under considera tion, he should not go over the ground which had been so ably trodden by those who had preceded him on both sides of the House, as to the reasons which had led to that progressive augmentation in the charges of the navy, which was observed and found fault with by those who opposed the present vote. It had been explained that this increase had arisen partly from the necessary supplies of stores consumed in the annual services cur responding with the augmentations made from time to time, and partly from the great and extraordinary change which the introduction of steam as a means of propulsion for vessels necessarily made in the character and description of our vessels. But that increase, what ever it might be, was not greater than what had taken place in the navy of Franco during the corresponding period, And when he was told that they were not to look at what other nations did with their naval establish ments, the answer was given by the Hon. Member who had just spoken. He had repeated the arguments used in the French Chamber for the increase of their navy, but the common sense of those arguments was, that the defensive means of a nation even in time of peace must in some degree be proportioned to the preparations of other nations with whom there might be a chance of our coming into collision. There was nothing offensive in that mode of proportioning the defen sive means of our nation to the preparations of another, and it would have been bad policy if we had taken no notice of the naval forces of the United States, of France, and of Russia, the three great mari time Powers of the world. He imagined that neither in stores, in sailing ships, or in steamers, bad we gone beyond what the necessary service of the country re quired. It had well been observed that, in defending the present vote, they should not rest their arguments on a state of things which had arisen since the estimates had been prepared. He was willing to admit the force of that assertion ; but when he was asked why it was that our extended commerce required increased means of defence, he must protest against the manner in which the Hon. Member for the West Riding had said that our commerce required no protection from our navy.—(Hear.) Our merchants were every day seeking fresh markets, and everywhere that those were found British residents flocked to the spot. There was hardly a place in the commercial world in which British subjects did not establish themselves, and being established they always looked for protection at least from our naval force. There was not a day in which he did not receive letters from various parts of the world, from British subjects, complaining that they were neglected and exposed to oppression and ill-treatment from the local authorities. It was, therefore, not merely on account of the extent of our colonial possessions, but of our trade and commerce, that additional naval protection was necessary. But the argument of the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) would go to show that we might dispense altogether with, not only the navy. but the army, and even the police. — (Cheers.) The Hon. Member said, what was the use of our ships of war, they are always lying useless in the harbours, and the men are cleaning the decks, or em ployed in other equally peaceable and useless occupa tions.--(Hear, hear.) He wished the lion. Gentleman would exercise his ingenuity in describing, in the same way, the occupations of the soldiers in their bar racks. Because, if •it were a good argument that because our sailors were not employed in hostile occu pations, that therefore we have no use for them, it would be equally good as against our army that in time of peace they were only employed in barracks or on parade, and in the same way it would apply to that army of blue coats who we saw walking about the streets with their hands in their button-holes and staring e very person out of countenance who ventured to look into a shop window.—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) He must say that the Hon. Gentleman, who talked of childish argument and childish reasoning, had, in endea vouring to show that our navy should be reduced in time of peace, adduced a line of argument which was not likely to have much weight with the House, nor with any reasoning man in the country.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman would refer the question not to a naval man or a statesman, but to the ploughmen and the weavers.—(A laugh.) There is no danger of invasion, said be, for the ploughman ploughs on without dread of a foreign foe, and the weaver has no fear of foreign OCCUPatI9 II 4 - "(Chegra and laughter.) Now ho (Lord Palmerston) could not consent to leave the question to that triounal—(Hear, hear)—nor did he consider that because the ploughman and the weaver did not believe the descent of a foreign enemy possible, that we ought, therefore, to strip the country of its naval defences, and depend for protection altogether on the doctrines of free trade.—(Cheers.) Those doctrines he had often admitted and pressed upon the House as doctrines tend ing to peace, but he was not prepared to say they could be relied on as an efficient substitute for that more material and physical protection which a great nation like this would always require.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham) had said that he trusted no member of the Government, in ad dressing the House on this question, would depart from that reserve which was becoming of the present occa sion ; but the Hon. Member for the West Riding exhorted them to tell all the secrets of the Foreign office.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Palmerston) had no secrets. Heaven knew that what was now passing in other countries was no secret.—(Hear, hear.) Those events were notorious to all mankind ; and if any reasoning or reflecting man in the House could have thought six weeks ago the force proposed was greater than expediency or the neces&ities of the public service required, he was sure no man in the present state of affairs, and in the face of future events, which he hoped would not be of that character which some expected — but still with a future big with uncertainty—(Hear, hear)—whatever the wishes and hopes of the Govern ment that that future would end in peace might be—and he could assure them that whatever influence the Go vernment possessed would be steadily exerted for that object—(Hear, hear)—and is urgently and impartially endeavouring to inculcate the doctrines of peace to all who might be disposed to listen to their counsels—still, with a future big with events, the character of which no one could venture to predict—no careful man in this country could wish that our naval and military force should be reduced to a lower amount than that at which it now stood.—(Hear, hear.) If they wished the counsels of this country to carry any weight, we mast be in a condition independent of fear and alarm. A country that was itself powerless could not expect other nations to listen to its appeals. For your counsels to have weight you must show that you do not desire peace out of humility or fear.—(Hear, hear.) You must show that you demand it because you think it is consistent with the true advantage of all countries— that you demand it, because of your love of peace it self, and not out of fear of the consequences of war- in your own case. He could assure the House that it was not only the desire of the Government that this country should continue to enjoy the inestimable blessings of peace, but it would be no fault of theirs—when they ventured to offer connsel to others—it would be no fault of theirs, if Europe should be involved in the calamities of war.—(Hear.) No one, he thought, in these days would venture to prophecy what might occur. Events had followed each other of late with such rapidity that no man would attempt to anticipate what might be the rsults of the coming ; week.—(llear, hear.) But he trusted they would not think this was a moment when they shbuld divest the Government of those means which, at the beginning of the session, they proposed that the House should intrust to the Government for the service of the country.—(Hear.) Captain HARRIS defended the military and nava services from the imputations of the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and said that when that Hon. Mem ber spoke slightingly of the Duke of Wellington he did not know the hearts of the people. Mr. BRIGHT (who was for some moments pre vented from proceeding by the calls for a division) said the speech of the Noble Lord (Palmerston) was precisely like the speeches of all the Foreign Secretaries for the last sixty years. He wished to recal the House to the question under consideration, via., whether they were to vote this enormous sum without deduction or not, and in point of fact, whether the:Committee should give its sanction, which had been for so many years followed, of perpetually increasing the military expenditure of the country ?—(Hear.) Of what was that expenditure now composed ? The interest on the national debt, the navy, the army, and the ordnance, were all expenses which arose from those warlike propensities which had been so extensively gratified by present and past Go vernments.—(Hear.) These branches formed almost the whole expenditure of this great empire -47,000,0001. a year were paid either for wars that had already taken place, or in preparation as it seemed for wars that were expected.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord (Palmerston) asked, " How can you expect to have influence with foreign countries unless, when you recommend peace, you are in a powerful position as to your armaments?"—(Hear.) New there were two answers to that proposition. First, the Noble Lord did not consult the interest of this country—he thought it was his duty, for the purpose of upholding the balance of power, to interfere with the arrangements of continental states; and the other answer was to be found in the answer to the question, was the United States powerful or not? Had not the United States obtained from France the restoration of rights and payments which France for a long time had refused? Had not the United States obtained from this country the settlement of the Maine boundary question and the Oregon question? And yet, until the Mexican war, the United States had, as compared with our own, a ridi culous amount of armaments both military and naval. —(hear, hear.) But there was another question which the Noble Lord (Palmerston) and the Secretary for the Admiralty seemed to have lost sight of—that was, where was the money to come from for these constantly increasing armaments?—(Hear, hear.) They might bring forward documents and argue, that because France or some other power had increased its armaments, therefore we must add to ours. But there was a limit to this, which if they passed they would entail more mischief on the country than could result from any in crease of the armaments of foreign countries.—(Hear.) Let them consider the discontent which the proposed increased expenditure and increased taxation had occa sioned throughout the country during the last three months.—(hear, hear.) The people were not, however, sufficiently alive to the extravagance of the Govern ment, nor to the necessity of resisting by all constitu tional means these unnecessary additions to our taxation. —(Hear, hear.) But it was because 500,0001. more was asked for in the present estimates than in those of last year, and because 2 per cent. had been attempted to be added to the income-tax, that an amount of discontent existed against the present Government which no pre vious Government for many years past had met with. The industry of the people was paralysed, their means were exhausted, and from the highest to the lowest they were in a state of extreme difficulty and suffering. If this course was continued, we could scarcely - hope to escape some of those troubles which had resulted in other countries from the same cause.—(" Oh," and " Hear.") The Noble Lord talked of his desire for peace, but had he sent any Ambassador or Envoy to any foreign nation with a direct and tangible proposi tion to reduce the military expenditure in conjunction with this country ?—(Hear, hear.) Nothing of the kind had ever been done, and yet there was no doubt that Prussia, Russia, Austria, and all the continental powers, were sighing for some relief from those all but intolerable burdens.—(Hear, hear.) If we had a Secre tary fur Foreign Affairs who thought more of the true interests of his country than the exaltation of his office—("Oh," and cheers)—he could imagine him enter ing into a correspondence with intelligent Ministers of other countries to bring about such a reduction of ex penditure as he had alluded to, and such a reduction as this country would enforce before long.—("Divide.") When he remembered that there were 150 Gentlemen in that House connected with the army and navy, he was not surprised that what he was saying now, and what he had said en former occasions, should be unpa lateable ; but if that House really represented the com mons of England, and held the purse-strings of that enormous taxation which was extracted from the people, he knew of no more solemn duty that could devolve upon its members than to protest against an expense which they believed to be excessive, and which was oc casioning discontent through all classes of the industri ous people of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. IL DRUMMOND—When he heard gentlemen belonging to the military and naval professions charged by the free-trade party with selling the interests of their country he feared they were on the verge of carrying into the military affairs of the country those tenets which had brought ruin on the country in every other way.—(A laugh.. He would not detaia the House on that question now, because other occasions would arise, when he was determined to trace, in all its ramifications, the principles of the free-trade schools, and to show the injury which had resulted from their adoption. They had been taught to consider the interests of the master cotton spinners as identical with the interests of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) So the interests of the cotton spinners, the cotton operatives, the colonies, and every other interest had been sacrificed; and now the same party who had obtained this sacrifice come forward, with the most inordinate presumption, to sneer at Ministers for maintaining those doctrines which every previous Government upheld—(Cries of " Hear, hear") —and to call for the abolition of that policy and those maxims which experience and common sense had shown to be correct. The cotton-spinning interest was to be the guarantee for peace; and, according to these gentle men, he believed if Cain himself had been a cotton spinner, he would never have knocked Abel on the head.—(A laugh.) He mistrusted not the men, but their power. He mistrusted that they had the power at all, and he certainly did not believe that we were in any danger of a foreign invasion, so long as we showed that we had the power and the determination to resist it.— (Hear, hear.) He conjured the House not to believe that these establishments were upheld merely for the benefit of the genteel classes, and to mistrust all counsel that came from that quarter ; for the throne could not stand upon cotton, and the Queen could not sit upon a s pinning-jenny.—(Cheers and laughter.) Sir H. VERNEY said a few words in vindication of the Irish Roman Catholic soldiers, than whom (he said) there were none in the British service more ready to do their duty. Mr. HUME replied, and the Committee divided — For Mr. Hume'. motion _ _ Against it 347 Majority The original motion was then put and agreed to, the House resumed, the Chairman reported the resolution to the House, and obtained leave to sit again. ELECTION RECOGNIZANCES BILL. Mr. BRIGHT asked the Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole) whether the second reading of the Election Recognizances Bill would come on to night ; if not, whether it would come on at all ; and if at all, when ?—(Laughter) Mr. W ALPOLE was willing to take any course which might be agreeable to the House. As the organ of the Select Committee appointed on this subejct, he had brought forward the Bill, but after the division which had taken place upon it on Wednesday last, he did not entertain much hope of being able to pass it in its present form. The Bill sought to do justice to all parties, both petitioners and sitting Members, and it was ' for the House to decide whether ho had succeeded in 1 accomplishing that object. His sight Lion. and Learned Friend the Member for Bute (Mr. Wortley) had shown him some amendments which he thought would meet the objections raised to the Bill so framed. His Right Zion. Friend had been obliged to leave town, and, therefore, he (Mr. Walpole) would propose now to read the Bill a second time pro forma with the intention of enabling his Right Hon. and Learned Friend to lay on the table his amendments, and then, when those amendments were printed and in the hands of Members, it would be competent to the House to say whether they would go into Committee on the Bill and embody in it those amended clauses. lie would, therefore, suggest that the Bill be now read a second time pro forma. Mr. CRIPPS said his Right Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Wortley) had left in his charge the amendments alluded to, which he was ready at once to lay on the table, so that they might be printed and in the hands et Members to-morrow (this) morning. Sir R. H. INGLIS opposed the second reading of the Bill, on the ground that the passing an ex post facto law on such a question was most objectionable. Sir G. GREY suggested that the proper course would be, that before the Bill was read a second time the amendments should be printed, with a notice that in ease the Bill was read a second time those amendments would be moved in Committee. Sir B. HALL said this Bill seemed to consider the cases of the sitting Members only, but he thought that of the petitioners ought to be considered. The peti tioners in the Cheltenham and other cases which alleged bribery, had already been kept four months without a hearing, and he wished to know what would become of their petitions unless some order of the House was made with respect to them. He objected to any further delay in disposing of those petitions. Mr. REYNOLDS, as one of the sitting Members in cluded in the Bill, thought that, though petitioners had rights, the sitting Members had rights also. A great in justice would be done to the latter if they were sent be fore Committees without the protection which proper and leg al recognizances by the petitioners afforded them. He should support the proposition of the lion. and Learned Member for Midhurst. Mr. C. ANSTEY thought it right, after what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Wal pole), that the House should consent to the Bill being now read pro forma a second time. Sir R. PEEL thought that nothing could be more becoming than the course proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Midhurst, who had no other ob ject in view than under circumstances of very great difficulty to take a course which on the whole would be most consistent, if not with the letter of the law, but certainly with substantial equity, and thereby to prevent its being said that the House had closed its doors against inquiry. As the organ of the Committee, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had introduced this Bill; but after what had passed, he might well abandon it. However, as there were other Hon. Members who entertained different views as to the details of the Bill, he had moved the second reading for the mere purpose of enabling those Hon. Members to submit their views to future consideration. There being no interference ott the part of the House, all the measures would be re ferred to the several Committees. He would suggest that the Bill should be allowed to be read a second time, w hen notice might be given of the amendments to be proposed. Mr. HAYTER said, his impression from the begin ning had been that: the whole of this proceeding was utterly useless. Let the necessity, for further legislation. be established, before the Bill was read a second time. Mr. GREENE contended that ithe necessity for the Bill had been sufficiently shown, and the sooner it was passed into a law the better. Mr. BERNAL, though he had been a Member of the Committee out of whose recommendation the Bill had. arisen, conceived that the existing law was amply suffi cient. With the multiplicity of business before the House, be saw no chance of the Committee getting through the business which this Bill would create. Sir G. CLERK said if the House did not come to speedy decision on this Bill, the Committee of elections must proceed withithe choice of Committees, which they had hitherto postponed in expectation that some legisla tion on the subject would be come to. The LORD ADVOCATE thought that before the Bill was read a second time pro forma, the House ought to be in possession of the amendments to be proposed. Sir W. HEATHCOTE thought the House had made a mistake in interfering in the matter at all.—(Hear.) Though he had acquiesced in the introduction of the Bill, he would not urge the Hon. and Learned mover to proceed with it. Mr. SHIEL referred to the Galway case, and observed that the reference by the House of the Cheltenham peti tion to a Committee was an admission that the certificate of the examiner was not conclusive. Mr. NAPIER thought the House ought to consider itself bound by the decision of the examiners. Mr. WALPOLE said that after what had passed in the House be did not mean to press the motion, but out of consideration to theillon.:Gentleman the Member for Bute, he thought it would not be right for him at pre sent to withdraw the Bill. The motion was then withdrawn. FREEMEN OF GREAT YARMOUTH. On the motion of Mr. K. SET MER leave was given to bring in a Bill to disfranchise the freemen of the borough of Great Yarmouth. The House then adjourned at a quarter-past one. ARCTIC SEARCHING EXPEDI- TION. We have noticed, from time to time, the active and judicious measures which have been adopted by the Admiralty, with a view to render assistance to Sir John Franklin's expedition, which sailed in the spring of 1845, for the purpose of exploring the north-west passage into the Pacific, and of obtaining a series of magnetic observations, required to complete the set which had been obtained from every other part of the globe. In June last, Mr. Bell, one of the most active and intelligent of the chief traders of the Hudson's Bay Company, proceeded in their ships to York Factory, in temporary command of the four boats belonging to the Arctic searching expedition, accompanied by fifteen picked men of the Sappers and Miners, and five seamen, forming part of an expedition to be fitted out under the command of Sir John Richardson, who (accompanied by Mr. Rae) is now on the eve of departure to join the boats, for the purpose of proceeding to the ►hores of the Arctic Sea. Mr. Bell's party were ordered to advance, in the spring of this year, to Fort Simpson, on the Mackenzie River, to be there joined by Sir John Richardson, having wintered, probably, at Cumberland House, which was the furthest point the party expected to attain be fore the closing of the navigation . The boats were amply stored with provisions, winter clothing, &c., and a fifth boat, similarly stored, will be furnished by the Hudson's Bay Company, who have dis played the most laudable desire throughout to render every assistance in their power to carry out the inten tions of the Admiralty. Sir James Ross, whose whole life may be said to have been passed in the Arctic and Antarctic Seas, is now actively employed in fitting out the Enterprise and Investigator, the latter under command of Captain Bird, an experienced officer on the Polar voyages. They will sail early in May to Baffin's Bay, and through Lancaster Sound to the westward, sending out their boats and steam launches to different points of the coast, and examining the Wellington Channel, through which it is not improbable the Erebus and Terror may have proceeded, with a view of making the passage to the northward of the Parry group. Commander Moore, also an experienced officer in the navigation of the icy seas, of her Majesty's ship Plover, who is now on his way round the Horne by Behring's Straits, where he will be joined by Captain. Kellett, of her Majesty's ship Herald, has been or dered to proceed to the eastward in his boats along the northern shores of America, as far as the Mackenzie River. It may confidently be hoped, tinder Divine Provi dence, that these admirable arrangements may be crowned with success, should Sir John Franklin's expe dition have got into difficulty. A reward of upwards of 100 guineas has also been offered to any of the whale ships which may bring in formation of the expedition, the !lianal amount of the reward depending upon the authenticity and value of the information conveyed. They have also been invited to look out for any of the copper cylinders which Sir John Franklin was ' directed to throw overboard daily on reaching 65 deg. north. Although these precautions are most proper and creditable to the authorities, we do not ourselves feel any unnecessary anxiety as to the fate of the ships. That they may have been hampered, as others have been, is very probable, and is almost a necessary contingency in the navigation of an icy sea, but we place great hope in the materiel as well as personnel of tho ex pedition, for ships better adapted for the service, better equipped in all respects, or better officered or manned, never left the shores of England on any of those arduous voyages of discovery which hare helped to raise the character of the British seaman in the eyes of every enlightened nation of the world. CHEAP LITERATURR.—We observe that Mr. Colburn has determined to publish the future volumes of his collection of standard novels at only ss. per volume instead of 6s. and to reduce to the same price those already published, including the celebrated story of " Emilia Wyndham." Th e new volume wh ich is to appear with the magazines on the Ist of April, will be Mrs. Gore's " Mrs. Armytage; or Female Domination," the work which was found by the s ide of the unfortu nate Duchese de Praslin , and which; it is understood, she was perusing at the moment she was attacked by her husband —a work which has been pronounced to exhibit a better lesson to the sex than is contained in a volume of Mrs. Chapone's letters. SOMNAMBULISM EXTBAORDINARL—A short time since, Mr. Cunnington, of Brampton Moor, fancy turner, &0., was awakened about two o'clock in the morning by a noise at his door. Begot up and opened the window, when his daughter Hannah called out, " Come, father, go to work, the steam is up." Mr. Cunnington dressed himself as quickly as possible, and went to the engine house, about 100 yards distant, when he found the steam roaring out of the boiler which is atached to the engine that turns his work. Having drawn the fire and made all safe, he re turned home for an explanation of the strange occurrence when he ascertained that his daughter had got up in her sleep, taken the key, and gone to the engine; she had then made a fire and got the steam . up, when she ret urne d h ome , but was unable to gain adm ission into the house in con sequence of the door being fastened by a drop latch. She was still asleep when Mr. Cunnington returned, and he had some di ffi culty in awakening her. She had no knowledge of what had taken place, and what makes the affair seem more extraordinary is, that she had not been accustomed to do anything at the engine.—Derby I Reporter ,