The Sun. — London, England, 1835-03-28 00:00:00

. . under t. ° me.ptesfint system of open voting, the electors of Great Britairi t and I .reland were unavoidably exposed to the undue influen .co of 'family conne c ti ons ; an d he re h e wou ld b eg to ex press his regret that a near relative of the Honourable Mewl tee opposite should personally have canvassed elec tors-.-0-1, ear, hear)—that he should have raised the rents of those tenants who voted for his antagonist, and left the rent' Of those aho voted for him just where they originally bad been. He hoped the prayer of the petition would be listened to, and i stated that he felt convinced the electors of Great Britain. and Ireland, could never be expected to do their duty, unless ti he system of open voting was abolished, and the vote by bar lot; substituted in its place, which would at once protect the vii ttse and secure the indelfendenco of all honest electors. The F ion. Member concluded by moving that the petition be referr eel to the Intimidation Committee. .e petition was then read by the Clerk. M r. TURNER said it did not appear there was any allega tion in the petition either against him or his Hon. Colleague, and all he would say was, that if it had contained any such ch2,rg. and the Hon. Member (Mr. Baring) had thought proper to have it referred to a proper tribunal of the House, be should have been prepared to meet it in a most sa tisfacts ,ry manner.—( Cheers. ) He must say that he thought the &on. Member and his friends had not come out quite so immaculate 'as he himself had professed. He had ' never canvassed a vote ; and then what the Hon. Member had stated abont a tenant of his had no foundation ? The tenant the Hon. Gentleman bad alluded to, had written him( Mr. Turner) a note, stating that he had voted for Dr. Bow riug because be was a losing candidate, and that had he ( Ma-. Turner) been placed in the same situation, he would have .voted. for him.—( Laughter.) That was the Gentleraar that he was reported to have intimidated.—( Hear, hear, 3.nel laughter.) He was sorry he troubled the House with these few remarks, but lie thought be was quite iwaifiecl in doing so, after the manner in which the Hon. Member who had just sat down had thought proper to allude to hint. —( Cheers. ) Mr. .FIEL DEN said that heibrlieved the turbulence and riot that had been created at the late contest for Blackburn originnted entirely with the supporters of the Member who had presented the petition.—(Hear, hear.) He had never can vassed the Borough of Blackburn, and had never asked for a single vote, with , one exception. He himself was obliged to get away for fear of personal violence.—( Hear, hear. ) He denied the cherre generally, and was convinced there was rot one particle of that statement correct, which the Hon. Member had . made. He Was astonished to hear such an accu ,ation coming from such a quarter, and could not refrain from amelaiming—, • . _ . . Ruil ,t,plerit Gracehos do seditione querentes? Mr. ABM. SMITH presented a petition from the town of Hitchin, in Bedfordshire, against the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill. Sir AN BRE W AGNE W presented several petitions from plates, the names of which we could not learn, in favour of the Bill for the better observance of the Lord's Day. Mr. LEES LEES presented a petition from Wells, in fa vour of the Grand BriStol Railway. Also two petitions from Wells and Westbury against the Ecclesiastical Courts' Bill. , Mr. D. W. •HARVEY moved for returns from the Court of Etplit!:. -Also three other returns, the purport of which did not Teach us. - Mr. OSWALD presented a petition from Aberdeen, in favour of the Church of Scotland. POOR LAWS (IRELAND). Sir RICHARD MUSGRAVE brought in a Bill for es tablishing a provision for the Poor of Irelatd.—Rend a first time. Mr. W. S. O'BRIF.N presented a petition from a town in the county of Limerick, in favour of the total abolition of tithes ; also another from the same county, for the removal of Ministers. An Hos. MEMBER presented several petitions against the increased duty of 50 per Cent., which the Act of last Session imposed upon Licensed Victuallers. Laid on the table. A number of petitions were next presented, but owing to the confusion which prevailed in the House, it was impossible to hear one word of what they related to. DORCHESTER UNIONISTS. An HON. MENIISER (we believe Colonel Gore Langton) presented a petition in favour of the Dorchester tnionists. Major BE AUCLE ltK thought that these unfortunate men bad suffered under a law of the existence of which they were ignorant; and he therefore hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would pay attention to the subject, and do what was just. CHARITY COMMISSIONERS. . Mr. WM KS wished to know what course the present Government intended to adopt respecting the renewal of the investigation into public charities in England and Wales. Six of the largest counties in England had been investigated, and six of the counties in Wales had been partially investigated. The Commission had been appointed in the beginning of last Session, and, of course, there was great anxiety to learn what his Majesty's Ministers meant to do on this subject. Mr. GO ULB U RN, at the present moment, could give no answer, but he hoped to be able to do so in a day or two. IRISH CORPORATIONS. Mr. BARRON wished to know whether his Majesty's Ministers had received the Report of the Commissioners ap pointed to inquire into the state of Corporations in Ireland ? Mr. GOULB 17 RN—The report was received only yester day evening, and it was his intention to lay it on the table as soon as possible. Mr. BARRON wished to know whether it was intended to found any measure of reform upon the report of the Corn missioners. Sir R. PEEL had not read the report, and it was therefore impossible for him to give any answer. ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS. Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished to know when the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners would be laid on the table. He wished to ask whence it was that while it was not yet circu lated amongst the Members of that House, it bad for some days back been in the hands of all the newspapers in London. He had no objection to the report being put in the posses sion of the press, but it ought to be done concurrently with its being handed to the Members of that House. Sir R. PEEL could only say for himself, that he had no hand in sending the report to the newspapers. He could, therefore, give the Hon. Member no satisfaction whatever. IRISH CHURCH. Lord J. RUSSELL.—I informed the Right Hon. Baronet the other day that I would this evening describe to him the outline of the motion which I intend to move on Monday next. I am not prepared to pledge my self _to the words which it is my intention to submit t o th e House, but it is my intention to move that the House do resolve itself into a Committee for the purpose of considering the expediency of applying any sur plus that may be found in the revenues of the Church of Ire land, and which may not be required for the spiritual wants of the Members of that Church, to the religious and moral instruc tion of all classes of the people of Ireland. ( Opposition cheers.) Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to know, supposing the House to agree to the proposition, and to go into Committee, whether the Noble Lord would be prepared to produce the particular plan by which he proposed to make the appropriation? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that that was a question which he felt himself not bound to answer.—( Great cheering.) When the House had resolved itself into a Committee, he should then be prepared to lay the whole particulars before it. Mr. FINCH wished to know whether the Noble Lord in tended to include under " all classes" the Roman Catholics of Ireland ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL either returned no answer to this question, or in so low a tone as to render it impossible to hear it in the Gallery. RUSSIA AND TURKEY. Colonel EVANS, in consequence of what he had heard with reference to Wallachia and Moldavia, wished to ask the Noble Lord opposite (Mahon) whether he bad any objection to lay the recognition, if any had taken place on the part of the Government, of the nationality of those States arising out of the treaty of Adrianople. Also the correspondence that bad taken place between the Government of this country and Turkey, with reference to Russia. The Gallant Member thought that It was most important that Parliament should have the earliest intelligence upon so important a subject, considering the peculiar circumstances in which Ministers were placed with respect to that House.—(Cheers.) Lord NIA HON hoped that the Gallant Member would per mit him to defer giving a reply to his question, until he could ascertain whether it-was consonant with his public duty to do so, and this would also, probably, enable him to answer the Gal lant Member more satisfactorily. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. HE BRIE S would now call the attention of the House to a subject' connected with their proceedings a few nights ago. The Hon. Member for Middlesex had proposed that the Army Estimates should be referred to a Committee up stairs, and another proposition had also been made respecting them. He, therefore, thought it right, in moving the order of the day for going into Committee on the Army Estimates, to say, that that evening was the only one on which they could possibly be entered into, as there were mat ters of importance pending, which would preclude them from having any other opportunity of doing so. On Monday night a subject of great importance was to be brought forward. If, therefore, there was any further delay in proceeding to the consideration of the Estimates, it was his duty to point out to the House, that the greatest possible disadvantage and public inconvenience might arise from such a course., ile had thought it his duty to state thus much to the House, in order that there might be no misapprehension on the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved the order of the day for the 'House going into a Committee of Supplv on the Army E s ti ma t es . Mr. H LIME said it was very true that every motion made on a night of Supply was to a certain degree an impediment to that vote ; and ever since he had been a Member of that House he had always found Chancellors of the Exchequer and Right Hon. Gentlemen connected with the Government most anxious to get over the Supplies with as little discussion and as little delay as possible.—( Laughter.) But it had been the rule, on many occasions, when individuals held situations in the Government in whom the House had not confidence, for the House not to be too ready to place at their disposal the public funds, without due discussion, and without an attention to those reforms and economy which the House should look after. In the Estimates, there were sonic votes exceedingly difficult to deal with—he meant so far as the number of troops was concerned. Ministers might think it necessary to maintain the various Colonies. It appeared to him that this was a point settled on the recommendation of the Minister for the Colo nial Department, on what was necessary to be done. Upon his representatiori, a course was then recommended on the responsibility of his Majesty's advisers. He thought, how ever, it ought to be dealt with by a Committee of the whole House. He stated this in order to free himself from that practice which has hitherto been pursued, and that prerogative which was exercised for the public good. But the question he was-about to bring before the attention of the House was whe ther they were doing that to which he had pledged himself, in effecting all the reductions they were enabled. What he thought ought to be the rule of this house was, not to vote a single farthing of the public money to his Majesty's Ministers until they had laid before the House the plan of their measures, as well as their statement on the ways and means. With that view he had asked the Right y Honourable Baronet to postpone the Committee of Supply, but he ( Sir R. Peel) had very properly said, that it was not the usual course pur sued by the House. He could not complain of it, as it seemed to be the principle of every Ministry to proceed on this jog trot system. It seemed to be the great desire of every Adminis tration to maintain as large an establishment as it was pos sible they could. He would venture to say that every Admi nistration (and he did not mean to blame that of the Right Hon. Bart. in particular) never had nor never would make reductions until they were forced upon him, from what he would call the gentle compulsions from without. It might be considered as unconstitutional language, but he thought it was the legitimate interest and positive language to which the House ought to bend. If the people be of op,inion that certain taxes are maintained detrimental to the public good, the representatives did but their duty in pressing upon that House to make these reductions. The course which had been pursued in this Session was to call for a vote on the Navy Estimates. he supposed, because they were the most popular, and because it ayes considered no objection would be made to them. It would be recollected, that when these Estimates came on, it was past eleven o'clock, and he endeavoured to' gain the con sent of the Right Hon. Bart. for a temporary delay. He thought the House had been a great deal led astray from the statement that there was no possibility of turther reductions. It had been said that the only available sum from which further reductions could be made was l 5 millions, thereby excepting the half-pay, pensions, and superannuated allowances of the various departments. He believed, however, that this portion of the public revenue, amounting to about five millions, was capable, if the House would only do its duty, of much further reduction. Above all, if inquiry was made into the mode in which the half-pay list had been swelled up for the last 16 years, by purchases to a large extent, without considering that every new appointment in the army and navy was a new pension on the public, not for one year but according to the age of the person, for 16 or l 8 years. He complained of the Commissions in the Guards which had been given to the Queen's pages, each of which cost the countr y two or three thousands pounds. He appealed to the Right Hon. ,the Secretary for Ireland, who had given such valuable and important information before the Finance Committee, or the Right Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last, whether great reductions might not have been made. The suggestions of the Right lion. the Secretary for Ireland had already effected savings to a considerable amount. There were matters connected with the half pay list which ho would not now more particularly allude to, but which would shortly come before the public. He would remind the House of the disclosures that had been made, in consequence of in formation furnished to the Secretary at War about four years ago, when the pension list had gone on rapidly increasing, and from it appeared that the non-commis sioned officers and privates had been drawing pensions, under false certificates. ( Hear, hear, hear.) A similar investigation now into the mode in which many officers in the army and navy bad obtained their half pay, might be most advantageous to the interests of the 'country. He believed that the Gallant Officer, the. Secretary for Ire land, could tell that 20,0001. or 30,0001. a year were saved by the inquiry of that Committee. It was proved that money was taken from the public purse by fraud and connivance ; —( Hear)--and as the public had derived so much benefit from that inquiry, he was anxious to propose a further inquiry, for the purpose of accomplishing further reductions. A com mittee properly constituted could not only recommend, but carry into effect the consolidation of the services which he proposed. By the latest returns laid on the table of the House, it appears we have burthens which could not be reduced below 28i millions, besides, there was an expenditure of 21 millions further, including three millions for the collection of the revenue; two millions for the Civil List, diplomatic ex penses, &c. ; and fourteen millions, the expense of maintain ing the Army and Navy and other miscellaneous items.— ( Hear, hear.) Therefore he asked the House to bear with him, while he proceeded to show how the consolidation of the Army and Ordnance could be effected, for he left the Navy out of the question altogether. If they took into consi deration the sum of 5,700,0001., the expense of maintaining the army, and 1,250,0001. for the ordnance—it would make seven millions for the army expenditure, exclusive of the yeo manry and militia. The question, then, is, can any mea sure be proposed by which the civil departments of the Army and Ordnance can be consolidated, in order to save ex pense. He had no hesitation in saying that the services could be so consolidated, as they acted so constantly together, and it was a matter of wonder to him that military men; froin their experience in the public service, and their knowledge of the services in other countries, should be so long separated. It was quite impossible to carry on this expenditure without ob serving economy—that strict attention to economy, unless some superior control were exercised over in—( Hear, hear.) Such sentiments so unanimously pervaded the Committee up stairs, that they came to the resolution that there was a great increase of the public expenditure, because no control existed to check the heads of the respective departments. Each en deavoured to keep up his own establishment, and gra dually raised them, and continued them in spite of the authority- they ought to have been regulated by.—( Hear.) — If one opinion was more predominant than another in that Com mittee amongst naval officers it was this, that the Treasury only ought to be the controlling and superior power to which all the others should be subordinate, and he would say, as he saw the Hon. Baronet about to leave the House--[ Sir J. Graham was proceeding towards the door of the House, but on hearing this remark he took his seat, which occasioned much laughing)—he would say it, because it was a credit to the Right Hon. Baronet, —no sooner did he enter upon the department to which he was appointed than he directed his attention to this subject, and concentrated the whole under the authority of the Admiralty Board, by which a reduction took place; a reduction of no less than 1,300,0001. was effected in the actual expenditure, though it should be admitted that the larger portion was owing to the reduction of stores. The Hon. Baronet acted upon his own responsibility, and had effected his object—that of a re duction of expenditure and a greater efficiency of the estab lishment—and for this he deserved credit. If, therefore, there was so large a reduction as one-fourth in that department, be was sufficiently justified in advancing the statements he now made. Whether all the benefits would flow from the measure he pro posed which he expected might be a question, for he had been often told that he was too sanguine; but he was certain that no harm could ensue from arguing. Before he touched upon the Ordnance question, he would glance at the Army. It ap peared that now there was a practice in existence, compared with what obtained in the present times—then the Secre tary at War was the officer who was responsible to that House, as well as the one who really ought to be ; but since the times of the Duke of York, whose long lease of office gave him the the opportunity of consolidating all the power—(a laugh)— so that now all the power was in the office of the Comman der-in-Chief, while the Secretary at War, who was responsible, had no power. He would like to hear what his Hon. Friends the Members for Dundee, Coventry, and Nottingham had to say upon the subject. He considered the office of Commander in-Chief was opposed to all changes, which was the reason given for not effecting the recommendations of the Committee. The Commander-in-Chief performed the duties in a great degree of the Secretary at War. It was the opinion of some of the best officers that the Commander-in-Chief should be placed in the same situation as the Admiral of the Fleet, and should act under the responsibility of an officer en trusted by that House. If not, he did not believe that they could ever effect those plans of economy and retrenchment which the county called for. Having stated this much, he would mention to the House the object of his motion. 'lt was to refer the Estimates of the Army and Ord nance to a Committee up stairs—(Hear)—which should be constituted similarly to the Finance Committee, to enquire and bring before them the best evidence as to the possibility of making the alterations proposed. The service of the ordnance was divided into two departments—the Military and the Stores—and during the last yeir a third had been added, namely the Commissariat department.—( Hear.) It appeared to him, from all that had been stated, that if the present Board of Ordnance was entirely reduced and broken up, and the whole of the establishment placed under two heads, a saving of several hundred thousand pounds would be effected. If the Artillery, Engineers, and the Pay Office of the Army were placed (as it ought to be, and was in every other country, under the Commander in -Chief, great good would be effected. There would remain nothing but the Store department, and a Board of Superintend ence might be formed without expense. He would now detail to the House what the duties of Paymaster of the Army were. All monies were issued through the Secretary at War, by means of his warrant. He therefore complained that the country v. as put to an average annual expense of 25,0001: and this year it amounted to 29,0001., for no purpose whatever, and from which the country derived no kind of benefit. The half-pay was paid by checks, and it was mixed up by the agents, the Banks, and the Paymaster-General. This was a most roundabout and most inconvenient mode of proceeding, and was very injurious to the public service. He complained that the payments made to the public by Greenwood and Co. were at a charge of per cent., and that firm made a sum of 19,000/. annually by merely cashing these warrants, and paying a portion of them. Sir E. K NATCHBULL expressed his dissent from that statement. Mr. HUM E resumed—This was one instance of the man ner in which the Army payments were made, and they required alteration. He thought that the army and navy pay offices should be consolidated, and that the whole pay of the Army and Navy could then be made at a very trifling expense, The Honourable Gentlemen then proceeded to state that Chelsea Hospital had made a saving of 12,0001. from the late alterations ; and if the consolidation of these three offices were effected, there might, be a saving effected to the country of 33,000/. per year. He then concluded by moving that the Army and Ordnance Estimates be referred to a Select Com mittee to consider of the expediency and practicability of con solidating some of the military and civil departments of the army and ordnance, with a view to diminish the expense of those establishments, and to provide a more efficient controul over military expense. The amendment having been put by the SPEAKER, Lord J. RUSSELL rose. He was ready to vote for the motion of the Hon. Gentleman so far as its object was to ap point a Select Committee to consider the expediency of conso lidating the civil departments of the army and the ordnance. Many Members of the late Government having taken into con sideration that question thought it most advisable to adopt a more efficient controul over the military expenditure; and they were also of opinion that that would never be effectually done till one person was charged with the responsibility.—( Hear.) The members of the late Government being of that opinio n , a Commission being appointed by his Majesty, of which his Hon. Friend the Member for Coventry was one, himself was another, and the Duke of Richmond was a third, who took a leading part. The Commissioners _instituted inquiries with regard to the practicability of the different plans suggested. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 28, 1835. There were many objections and many recommendations started, all of which were duly considered ; and as far as the evidence went, he must say the opinion he had entertained was not shaken—that it would be far better that there were oho officer, whether the Secretary of the War Department, or the Secretary of State, or a President of the Army Board, who.should be able to come down to the House, and state on his own responsibility that he bad recommended such an ex penditure, and that he was accountable for it.—( Hear, hear. ) When he looked at the present way in which the army was governed—when he saw that the Secretary at War interfered with the Commander-in-Chief, and the Commander-in-Chief interfered with the Secretary at War—(Hear) —that the Board of Ordnance exercised a power over either department; that the military officers Were obliged to go to the several heads of the different departments ; and, lastly, when he took into conside ration the great superabundance of stores which, he believed, at the time of the appointment of this Commission was esti mated at seven millions--( Hear)—he, with many others, did think that these evils might be remedied, and that their cor rection would lead to a better administration of the affairs of the army. At the same time it was not his opinion, nor did he think it was the opinion of any of the members of the •Commission, that the military command invested in the Com mander-in Chief for the purpose of preserving military dis cipline should be weakened.—( Hear, hear.) The Commis • sion never came to any end. He did not think it completed its evidence when the Duke of Richmond resigned office. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Secretary for Ireland,) who was most competent to offer an opinion on the Oen, and *to go into the details of the subject, had not been examined, and this fact alone appeared to him to afford se'cient proof that' the evidence had not been completed. The Commission, then, having closed without making any report, or bringing the evidence to a finish, he still thought this a proper subject for inquiry, whether by the Government itself, if it were disposed to undertake such a plan, or by a ,Select Com mittee of that House. Taking this view of the question, he was disposed to refer the army and ordnance estimates to a Select Committee, but he should be prepared to vote for a Select Committee of the nature of that of which the Ho nourable Gentleman spoke if he confined his motion to that. He ( Lord John Russell) took the,liberty, however, of suggest ing to the lion. Gentleman that it was not advisable for him to press his motion that evening—( Hear, hear)—on account of the statements made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Se cretary at War. The course of their present proceedings was certainly no fault of this present Parliament—(Cheers)—it was not their fault that they were getting somewhat too near to the period when the Mutiny Bill would expire for them at pre sent to enter into the discussion of any other subject. Ile I should have no objection to going into a Committee of Supply, and take the vote of a certain number of men. If 'the Hon. Gentleman persisted in his motion he should vote for it, but he begged to suggest to the Hon. Gentleman that it would always be in his power to .being forward his motion, which was another reason why he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would feel no ob jection to withdraw it on the present occasion.—( Heir, hear.) Lord STANLEY concurred in almost every thing that had fallen from his Noble Friend opposite, and would join him in the expression of a hope that the Hon. Member for Middle sex would withdraw his inotion.—( Hear. hear.) Ile dif fered with his Noble Friend in one point only, viz., the course be should pursue this evening would not be directed by the course which might be taken by the Noble Lord. If the Hon. Member for Middlesex persisted in his motion, he should consider it his duty to divide against him—( Hear)-- but if be postponed it, and brOught it forward. hereafter in the form of a substantive motion—if he did not bring it for ward as a motion for stopping the supplies, or preventing 'the passing of the Mutiny Bill—( Hear, hear)—then he should be ready to consider that it was a question well worthy the consideration of the House, and that great and extensive re ductions might be made, not only without injuring but with benefit to the interests of the country.—(Cheers.) He re gretted that the Commission had not brought its inquiries to an end before the close of the last session, because he felt that this'was a question that it was much better to leave in the hands of the Executive, aided by a Commission, than to refer to the investigation of the House. He was, therefore, glad to hear from the Government that they were prepared to follow up the inquiries instituted last session, with a view to the objects entertained by the late Government, if it were found pract- cable, viz. the consolidation of the various civil departments of the army and the ordnance. He was glad the Government were prepared to act upon that view ; but if it should turn" out that they were not, and the Hon. Member for Middlesex, on another occasion, thought fit that a Select Committee be ap pointed to take into consideration the evidence that had been given before the Commissioner, and to receive the report on such other evidence as might be obtainable, he should not only give no opposition to such a motion, but, as far as he could, should be ready to afford him every support.—(cheers. ) He did hope that the Hon. Member, after the strong' opinion which the Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed as to the importance to the service of the vote of this evening' not be ing delayed would consent for the present to withdraw his mo tion ; and he trusted that if the Hon. Gentlemen did so the House would see the propriety of abstaining from any further discussion of a question which would be. much better argued hereafter.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Sir R. PE E L—l think I may say that the House, on. all former similar occasions, has been in the habit, howeve , strongly it may feel disposed to object to the political princi ples and the general course of conduct pursued by the Govern ment, of showing that consideration which is due to the cir cumstances under which they are called upon to administer the affairs of the country.--( Cheers.) When the House re collects that we undertook the functions of the Government it December last—that, on assuming them, we found man• questions remaining after the last Government entirely un- . settled—the English and Irish tithe questions, the Dissenters' Marriage Bill, and the state of Canada, were quite unsettled the latter, I may say, untouched—when I say, the House re collects that all these various and important questions wen, pressing upon our consideration—it will not appear surprising to it if there are some less important subjects which we have not had either time or opportunity of carefully considering. We applied ourselves to those matters which appeared to us to be most pressing, and whatever opinion the House may enter tain of our activity on the present occasion, it cannot fairly charge us with remissness in submitting the usual and neces sary motions to its discussion. But the Hon. Member for Middlesex has chosen to bring forward a motion on this day, which is one of those set apart for Supply. I ask the House is it fair—is it proper ? I appeal to the House whether it is usually obstructed on days of Supply.— (Hear.) The Honourable Member on former days pro posed amendments ; lie, however, withdrew them. This day there are two amendments. The Honourable Member has given notice of a motion on the Army Estimates. I hope he will persevere in bringing it forward. The Hon. Gentle man has not given that notice heedlessly, or, I am bound to suppose, without all deliberation. It s t a nds for to-night. Is the Hon. Gentleman's motion to come after the Army Esti mates are disposed of, or is it not ? I hope it is, for that is a fair and legitimate mode by which the House of Commons will be enabled to show the Executive whether they shall carry on the 'tininess of Government or whether they shall not.—( Cheers.) Notice after notice has been given on the subject of the Hon. Member's motion, and time after time have they been withdrawn. When I saw, after repeated postpone ments, that the notice was finally given last night—when I saw that the Hon. Member and those who act with him had ap parently made up their minds as to the course they intended to pursue—l could not entertain a doubt of the decision they had come to, whether they could give a vote of confidence to the Executive or withhold it from them.---(Cheers.) After the notice given by the Hon. person who took such a promi nent part in the question of Irish tithes I did hope that the question would be brought before the House, and that we should proceed to vote the necessary number of men for the army before a decision of the House of Commons was pro nounced on that question. It has been objected to the Go vernment that they have caused the delay in the public busi nesi in some degree themselves. Is that a fair objection ? Is it a true one ? It is not the fault of the Government that the Parliament was not called together until the 4th or sth of February, neither is that the cause of the delay. The true cause is the unwise, and, in some cases, the unwarrantable. exercise of the privilege possessed by Hon. Members of mo ving amendments on every question before the House.— ( Cheers.). That is the true cause. It is for the House tt say whether such obstructions to the business of the country shall continue any loiter ?-:-(Cheers.) On the 25th of April the Mutiny Act expires ; a power of obstruction to its renewal is in the hands of every Hon. Member of the House, and he is privileged to exercise it whatever his motives may be for so doing. I hope, liewever, that no such indirect course tt defeat the Executive will be taken. I trust that a fair ane manly course will be adopted by those Hon. Members in Op position to his Majesty's Government.—( Cheers.) To oppose them by frivolous motions is neither a fair, a manly, or a le gitimate course of proceeding ; and I hope such a one win not be adopted, or, if adopted temporarily, not persevered i n .—( Hear.) It is a perfectly fair and legitimate course- for the Opposition to say to his Majesty's Ministers-- " Yot have not our confidence, 'we do not deem you entitled to Cu' support ;" and if the House of Commons is of the same opi nion it is a perfectly fair and legitimate course for it ti adopt to say—" We will vote you no money—we will you no supplies." Never did any man pant for any thing more than I do for the moment in which that shall come to be the question.—( Cheers. ) Never was any man more perfeeth free from care as to the results.—( Cheers.) 'Fo take that course would be to take a fair, a manly, and a legitimate course but it is neither one nor the other to obstruct the public busi ness in the manner that has been done night after night by m e _ tious which have only an indirect operation, and by a line of conduct which the public cannot understand.—( Cheers.) The financial year commences on the sth of April, immediately after which we come forward and propose our estimates. Or. the 25th of April the Mutiny Act expires. It is not a factious course, I admit, to oppose the granting of the supplies, but 1 can term the indirect course which has been adopted in the present instance no other but a factious one.—( Hear, hear.) If the House of Commons had applied itself to the.considera tion of the estimates on the 19th of February it would h ave had full time to make up its mind on the supplies. I shall now come more directly to the propositions of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. The Hon. Member proposes in the first instance that the Army and Ordnance Estimates shall be referred to a Hon. e m re e t ee e r a r s ii ‘r t . n Select Committee up stairs. The lion. Member took the shoulds s a e m l eect the erse Committee o n Army t a h n : d g o, e rTd s o a nns settle," te o t f l the ec, t says maNyaastveyts the eb Estimates. o e. amount ” ofs it forceco competent m r i e i tiidrf,eodar and d n cc: Committeesensuinghoul d that question, depending as it does on information which the t Executive can alone ExtheecutivodepbnsyaNei to imparted )ember, to no Select Committee whatever? The Hon. Member says the amount of force is a question which should originate in the Privy Council,*or at least that the acquiescence of the Privy Council in the decision of the Select Committee would be sufficient. But does the Hon. Gentleman know that it does non rest with the Privy Council more than it should with a Select Committee to propose or sanction the amount-of force necessary to be maintained ? It rests with a body, not, per haps, properly speaking, known to the law, but which, practi cally speaking, is sufficiently well known to the House of Commons and to Parliament, the Cabinet Council, composed of individuals from the Privy Council, called to the most secret and important deliberations of his Majesty. The House of Commons, from time immemorial,. has said that the proposal of the necessary force was the province of the Executive, and affirmed repeatedly that it should rest in that branch of the Government atone. Does the Hon. Member mean' to gainsay that affirmation ?—( Hear.) The best course for the Hon. Gentleman to take, under all the circumstances will, in my opinion, be to say to the Executive, " You have not our con fidence ; you shall not have our support," rather than to per severe in the proposition which he has made this evening. The Hon. Gentleman next proposes to admit the amount of force conditionally, and to' refer the remainder of the Army and Ordnance Estimates to a Select Committee ; that Committee not to be empowered to toubh on the amount of men required for the service. I shall never consent to such a proceeding. If it be done this year it must be done the next, and a prece dent will be established. I shall never consent to the esta blishment of any precedent which has for its object to take the necessary and legitimate power out of the hands of the Exe cutive and delegate it to a Committee up stairs, or any other select body whatever.—(thee: s.) I shall never consent that it be transferred from the bar of public opinion to a pla.ewhere public opinion would have little or no influence—where a bad vote could be easily explained witLcut trouble to the party giving it, where an exorbitant and unfair item could be slurred over without any explanation at all, and, more than all, where there would be no regular, perhaps, but still very coercive, I reports of the debates and proceedings.—( Loud cheering.) I say, Sir, if a Government wishes to establish a bad precedent, —if it desires to rule without responsibility—let them rulb by a Select Committee—let them send all their estimates to it. I wish to establish no such precedent. I desire not to have any share in the Government without a due share of .responsi bility, and therefore I shall never consent to the amended mo tion of the Hon. Mearb?r.—( Cheers.) I shall next come to the third proposition, of the Hon. Gentleman. He asks me whether I would consent to the appointment of a- Committee to iaquire into select manners connected with the Ordnance and the Navy ? It is exceedingly difficult to draw a line at which the appcintment of Committees should cease, and beyond which the principle should not be permitted to pass. Any Hon. Member if some such line were not drawn, could. on the pretence of public duty, or economy, or a disposition to retrenchment, call for a Committee on any subject connected with the public service. Nay, ten different Hon. Members could call for as many different Committees on the same ground. One Hon. Member might propose a Committee to inquire into the pos sibility of reducing the Lords of the Admiralty to three, and another the Lords of the Admiralty to two, on the plea of a possible reduction of their several situations with a view to the public gain in a pecuniary point of view. Every department tu the State might be included in a motion for a Committee, and all on the general and ,vague principle of probable reduc tion.. This argument could be applied to every office. To illustrate this I shall take the Hon. Gentleman's own sugges tion. He says "by means of this Committee it could be seen whether some offices rai4lit not be merged in others; for in stance, whether that ot e Commander-in- Chief could not be abolished, and the duties of the office transferred to the Secre tary at War. Does not the House agree with me now that t'aese are limits which should not be overstepped in granting Committees ? And can there be any second opinion that this is beyond them ?—( Hear.) As long as I have the power to do so I can never consent to transfer the military duties of that office to a civilian. Mr. HUME, in a low voice, said, we believe, that the Sec retary at War was not necessarily a civilian. Sir R. PEEL—The duties of the Secretary at War are generally civil duties, though I allow he need not necessarily be a civilian. But I speak of the office, and not of the indi vidual, and the office is a civil one. Therefore I say to 'the Hon. Gentleman that as one of his objects is to abolish the office of Cammander-in-Chief, and as I never can consent to such a proceeding, I cannot, of course, consent to the Com mittee which he asks for. The last proposal the Hon. Gen tleman makes, is contained in the question, would I con sent to a Committee for the purpose of ascertaining whether .the civil departments of the Army and Ordnance could not be amalgamated, with a view to the reduction of the present expenditure in that quarter, or whether I would appoint a Commission to the same effect ? In reply to this, I may refer .to the answer I made to a Noble Lord on a former night, when I was questioned with respect to the particu lars of some measure respecting the Dissenters. I have not had time to give the subject full consideration. It was only last night that the Noble Lord called on me to state distinctly what I intended to do, and to pledge myself to the details of a measure which is not yet complete. I had no answer but the one I have given. I have no hesitation in saying, and I feel no shame in admitting, that I have not given the subject full consideration. The same answer I now give to the Hon. Member's proposal. But, after all, what con aection has that Committee with the vote on supply ? Wha 4 - round can a refusal be for opposition ? Granting that it .were right I should give a Committee or appoint a Corn mission, what connection has it with the Army and Ordnance Estimates?__( Hear.) If I refuse. eitleer or both let the Hon. gentleman take the fair course. Let him give notice or a mo ion on the subject for a future day—let it come fully and fairly - wfore the House—let the'evidence of its necessity be made ipparept—but let him not raise an opposition to a question of tublic business which is as foreign as one thing can be to . another.—( Hear.) . If after reading all the evidence on the luestion, if after considering it in all its bearings, I state to ,he House and the Hon. Gentleman that I do not deem it .iecessary to assent to his proposition then let the Hon. Gen tleman take the course he thinks proper in reference to it, and not until then.—( Hear, hear.) That would be the right s!ourse, which is not the one he is taking at present.—( Hear, hear.) I have no other answer but this to give the lion. Gen tleman. I cannot, until those conditions shall have been corn ;lied with, accede to his proposition. Whatever may occur, I shall never, while I have the honour to be a Minister of the Crown, consent to establish a bad precedent to escape from a temporary difficulty.—( Cheers.) I shall make no pledge. I :will give no promise beyond this, that the subject shall have .Ity best consideration. And if, on a future day, the lion. Member brings forward a motion on the subject, 1 will be prepared to meet it in whatever way I deem most advent's seous for the service of the State, and the good of the coun try.—( Cheers. ) Mr. ELLICE considered himself bound to tell the Right Hon. Baronet that the situation in which he was placed was one of his own choosing—one for which he alone was respon sible._.( Hear.) And if the public time was wasted, and if there was delay in the questions brought under the considera tion of the House, the responsibility was with him.—( Hear.) These questions had been under the consideration of the late Government, th e y wou ld h ave been considerably advanced by this, but that the Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues superseded them, and dissolved the Parliament. He (Mr. Ellice) repeated again, that the Right Hon. Baronet, whether on the spot or not, was, with his colleagues, re sponsible for the delay and lost time.—( Hear, hear.) That the Right Hon. Gentleman was not in at situation to bring forward the question whish lie stated he (Mr. E.) was willing to admit : that he had brought forward others he could not deny. But the admission of Dissenters to the Universities and the Dissenters' Marriage Bills, were under the -consideration of the former Government—who were willing—and what was of more importance, had a Parliament ready and prepared_ to carry them. That Government was, however, dismissed from office—not because fault had been found with them, not because they were charged with doing too little, or even too much—they were dismissed in a moment without cause as signed, at the caprice of the Nobleman who held the provi sional Administration in his own hands—( Hear),--in a manner which had no precedent in the history of the country. By this movement the entire mass of measures of public improve ment which was in process of digestion was completely im peded, and the public business thrown back for an incalculable oeriod. Next came the dismissal of the Parliament. A Par liament which never refused a vote of credit to the King; a Parliament which enjoyed the confidence of the people— s Parliament which was unirnpugned. That Parliament was lismissed, not because of either of these causes—not because of its incompetency to do justice to the country—but because .t would not suit the political views of the Right Honourable Baronet and his party ; and because they expected by its lissolution to be supplied with another adverse to those mea mres of improvement which the former were anxious to carry nto operation.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. E.) would not have dluded to those topics, if the course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet had not been such as precluded an alternative. He bad come down to the House, not to take any part in the lobate, but to see whether he might not be able'to afford some assistance to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Her *les), and also to ascertain whether some force, satisfactory to the country and efficient tor all useful purposes, could not be 'kept up. Not such a force as showed the little confidence the Government had in their own strength ; but such a one as. while it did riot impair the utility of the service, would show how little confidence the House had in the Government._ ( Hear ) A course to this effect had been adopted by the Hon. - timber for Middlesex ; but the Right Hon. Baronet was too able a tactician, too wily a stageist. " Bring forward your motion," be said, " and we shall then see whether the House of Commons will give us such an army as is necessary. We .hall put the question of confidence upon that vote." Did the Right Hon. Gentleman think they would take him at his word? The vote on the Estimates Wil3, properly speaking, no vote o f confidence, even if it passed, in favour of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, in asking his Ho n . Friend the Member for Middlesex to withdraw his proposition, the last thing he ( Mr. E.) or his friends meant to show by so doing was confidence in his Majesty's Ministers.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the opposi lion to the supply was factious. Did he mean by factious the side of the House from whence the opposition came, or did he mean generally all opposition, from whatever quarter on the subject ? If he meant the latter, what would he say to the conduct of a Noble Lord the Member for Buckinghamshire, who on the `2sth of last April, in the past Session of Parlia ment, on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair for a Committee of Supply, brought forward a long motion on the distressed state of agriculture ?—( Hear. ) He did not think it could be shown that the motion of the Noble Marquis last year had much reference to the Army Estimates,. and if he mistook not the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary at War, on the same occasion showed so little of factious feeling as to bring forward a motion respecting timber.--( Hear, hear. ) Mr. HERRIE S—l never did.—( Hear.) Mr. ELLICE—He could not say that his recollection was very clear upon the subject—( Hear and laughter.) lion. Gentlemen were quite welcome to a cheer or a laugh at his expense • but, to come to facts, surely it could not, be said that the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Middle- sex had no relation_ to the army estimat e s. It was clearly and immediately connected with the subject, and the proper time for him to bring it forivard was before the army esti mates were disposed of. He could assure the Right Honour. able Gentlerean opposite that his (Mr. Ellice's) mind was as unsettled as his own upon the subject of separating the civil Irom the military functions of the Secretary at War and the Commander-in-Chief, and he had a decided objection to a separation between the engineers and the artillery. But, after all, the question must come and be finally settled where the control over the military expenditure of the country shall be placed. He would not now sayanything on the subject, or whether that control ought to rest with the Commander Lin Chief or the Board of Ordnance, as the responsible hands. With respect to the army estimates themselves, there were only two parts of them to which objection had been made, namely, the staff of the Horse Guards, and some allowances to the Foot Guards. Upon these subjects he should be most happy to give his best assistance to the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite, in bringing them to a satisfactory issue. As to the staff, there was one point to which he wished to allude. It was his opinion that all officers should be eligible, and have an equal chance of succeeding to the staff appointments by rotation ; but is those appointments at present stood they were a perfect monopoly in the hands of only a few officers, many of whom held them for a number of years. There was one appointment of this kind of which he knew hint self as having been held by the same individual for 22 years, and . he could the more fairly allude to this monopoly inasmuch as it was held by a friend of his own. The alteration which he suggested upon this subject did not conic from himself; it was the recommendation of the Committee that had been ap pointed to inquire into the matter that this alteration should be made. NVith respect to the Ordnance Department, it was notorious that one-half of the Ordnance stores that heti been most wantonly collected were perfectly useless; and if they could not be sold for anything it would be far better to give them away thtlifi - to keep them any longer. He would recent mend his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) to give a fresh notice of his motion for a future dny, so that the Right Hon. Baronet opposite might have sufficient time to give it all due considera tion. The present was not an occassion in which the House could show its want of cenfidence in his Majesty's Ministers, however strongly they might feel that want ; because the House could never think of disturbing the whole military sys tem of the country by refusing to renew the Mutiny Act, or by hesltatieg to vote the necessary supplies for paying the sol diers. Before- many days elapsed ; the House would have plenty of opportunities of showing wilat 'degree of Confidence his Majesty's Ministers possessed from.—(Clik e - s from the Op position.) The sort of confidence they possessed had already been shown of late in some instances. It seemed that on any que-tion brought before the House, whatever might be the subject, it only required the opposition of his Majesty's Mi nisters to insure its being carried.—( Cheers from the Oppo sition.) How a Government might exist while night after night it was left in minorities, was a problem that yet remained to be solved by the Ri.:ht Hon. Gentleman opposite. The question of the Irish Church must be settled, and the Right Hon. Gentleman would then see what confidence was placed in him by the House or the country.---(Cheers from the Op position.) Mr. H ft; RRIE S should- only advert to one charge made against himself individually by the Right. Hon. Gentleman. He meant that of having last year interrupted the Army Es timates by some motion about timber. He could assure his Right Hon. Friend, if he would allow him so to call him, that he never was guilty of that interruption. He certainly did, on one occasion of the sort introduce a motion on the subject of the Russian-Dutch loan ; but he did so with the full con sent of the Member's of the Government, whom he had spoken with on the subject. He hoped he might conclude from what had passed that the Hon. Member for Middlesex did not now intend to persevere in his motion, or was he to understand that the Hon. Member acquiesced in the advice that had been given to him ? Mr. HUME did not intend to persevere in it now, although nothing that fell from the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had in the least altered his own opinion ; but as some of his friends around him considered that his pehevering in his motion might be taken to be a wish to stop the necessary supplies for the payment of the army, he felt himself bound to give way to their judgment, in order to show that no difference of opi nion existed amongst them on that side of the House.—( Hear, hear, and laughter from the Ministerial side.) As the Right Hon. Baronet had promised to give the House his opinion on a future day upon the propriety of appointing a Committee or a Commission he (Mr. Hume) should withdraw his present motion, and give notice for that day week of a substantive motion on the subject, which would not at all interfere with the regular course of proceeding on the 'Army Estimates. Sir R. PEEL—What I promised was that I would read the report, or at least all the evidence taken before the Committee, and that with the least possible delay I would give my views to the House as to the appointment of a Commission, or what other course, if any, should be pursued upon the subject. I would suggest to the Hon. Gentleman the possible inconveni ence of naming so early a day as this day week for his motion, because there 7411 - be a heavy debate on Monday, which may probably be adjourned. Mr. HUME, for the reason mentioned by the Right Hon. Baronet, should name Monday week for bringing on his motion. . _ Mr. WARD said that in ibe notice of motion which he had given it never was his intention to interfere with the Secretary at War in bringing forwald the estimates, and he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that he did not give notice - of that motion front any factious motives whatever ; but he did feel strongly that L.eland ought to be so governed, and such an al teration made in the condition and establishments of that coun try, as would permit of a large reduction of the standing army. —(Cheers from the Opposition.) If on the motion of Monday next the House should record its solemn decision in favour of that motion, he for one, if he was to walk out of the House alone, would never again consent to vote for the military Go vernment of Ireland the number of men that were required under the present system in that country. He should not now further interfere, but should hold himself at liberty to adopt what course he pleased on bringing up the report. The Hon. Gentleman then withdrew his motion. ..... On the motion of Mr. HERRIES, the House went into a Com mittee of Supply. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. HERRIES said, the Committee were already aware of the peculiar circumstances under which the present Go vernment acceded to office, and the very recent period at which that circumstance took place left no time or opportunity to enter on a revision of the Army Estimates, so as to justify the bringing forward of any other than those already prepared by the Government that preceded the present. He did not at all advert to this part of the subject for the purpose of taking credit to the present Government, or withholding credit for the late Government, for any reduction made in the estimates; neither was it his purpose to divest himself or those with whom he acted of all the responsibility that belonged to them ; for he wished it to be clearly understood that the present esti mates were such as the present Government, after full consi deration, entirely approved and resolved upon ; and there was no disposition to give to the late Government all the credit that was due to them for those parts which they had already matured. The estimates as they now stood were the result of considerable revision of the whole subject by several Hon. Gentlemen who had filled the office of Secretary at War suc cessively, and to none was more credit due for his zeal and ability he brought to the subject than his Right Hon. Friend near him ( Sir H. Hardinge) while he held that office. Re peated Committees too had sat upon the subject, two of which were appointed in the last year, end from these Committees suggestions of great value had proceeded, particularly as to the financial part of our military system. To all those sugges- tions due attention had been paid in the preparation of the es timates. The subject of the first resolution he should propose to the Committee was the nutriber of men that would be re quired this year for the military establishments of the country. Last year the number was 88,000, but by the present estimates that number was'redueed to 81,271 men, all that would be re quired for the service of the present year. This diminution was effected net by reducing the general establishment, but by a reduction of the men in each company. He did not anticipate any opposition to the number of men he thus proposed for the service of the year. Indeed it would not be possible to have the military portion of the public service performed with a less establishment, considering our extended dominions, our colo nies, and foreign possessions in all parts of the world. The British soldier had much to endure, even with this supply, for on the average he was compelled to be ten years at a time an exile from his own country. The Committee had considered with the closest regard to reduction, how far the garrison esta blishments of the country could be diminished, but they were only enabled to point out very few instances in which they could recommend reduction, having respect to the interests of the public service. The same Committee was again appointed, and was pursuing its labours with the utmost diligence. In framing the present estimates attention had been paid to all the recommendations of the Committee of last year. The CHAIRMAN having read the resolution, "That 81,271 men be voted for the service of the year," Sir S. WHAL LE Y rose to protest against so large a stand ing army in time of profound peace as 81,000 men, when one fourth of that army was employed, not in protecting the country against foreign invasion, but to support a vast Protestant esta blishment in Ireland, where the great mass of the people were not Protestants.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") Gentlemen might cry " Oh," as they pleased, and might cry every letter of the alphabet.—(" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Colonel CONOLL Y could pot conceive how the Hon. Member could flatter himself that the people of England would swallow his statements, so destitute as they were of any foundation. _ _ _ Major BEAUCLERK would, at the present stage of the proceedings, propose a reduction of the infantry by 7,000 men, and when the vote came to the cavalry force, he should also propose to strike off a certain number from each regiment. He begged the Committee to call to mind, that the cavalry force was sent nowhere but to India, and yet twenty-two regiments of cavalry were kept up, though they were of no use to the country. The expense of one regiment of cavalry was more than double those of a regiment of infantry, and a cavalry force was less effective in preserving the public peace. If the House did not accede to his proposition, the country would feel that the, Tory and Whig parties were inattentive to the wants of the people, that were, crying loudly for a reduction of the taxes. He believed that the country was regardless of which of the two parties were in power ; all they wanted was a relief from their burdens. The Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by movin g , " That th e p ropose d vo t e of 81,271 men should be reduced by 7,000." The amendment having been put, Sir J. BYNG supported the original motion. Mr. HERRIES maintained that the recruiting service was reduced so low that it was hardly sufficient to keep up the efficiency of regiments, particularly iu India and in foreign stations. Alajnr BEAU CLE RK explained. Sir H. PARNELL begged the Committee to reflect that it was called upon to vote this large number of forces solely upon the personal authority of Ministers. He, for one, had had an opportunity of looking into the subject minutely in all its details, and he hat: considered every circumstance of the case, and he had come to the conclusion that so large number of troops was unnecessary for the public service. For eight years after the peace Mt numbers kept up had been only 75,000 men, and now Government was requiring 7,000 more, although they already had a force of 7,000 armed policemen in Ireland, 5,000 additional police, and 4,000 po licemen in London, besides a new and' extraordinary police farce in different towns of the country. The country was anxious to be relieved from taxation, and the House ought to feel it to be its duty to go into more minute &tails before it settled the military establishment of the country. Sir C. D'A LBI A C 'supported the original motion. Mr. C BULLER hoped that, upon this occasion, all the friends of economy, and all those who wished for the repeal of the Malt Tax, would vote for the amendment. Colonel C HATT E RTON said a few words, which were not audible in the Gallery. Mr GIL LON said the best way to cause justice to be done to Ireland was to diminish the force. An army was kept up there to protect abuses. The army of the United States was not more than 7,000 or 8,000, because the Government was to unison with the people, and there was no anti-national Church. Colonel EVANS felt himself bound in duty to support the amendment. With an efficient police in Ireland and in the metropolis, he saw no occasion for so large an army. He con tended it was quite possible to reduce it, and they were bound to do so, unless the contrary was clearly proved. There were serving in the colonies not less thaii 36,000 troops, 4101 1 ( 1 in- 1 officers. During the last war, they never had an army a more than 37.000 Britiah troops to meet the enemy. He fe lt coafident that 30 000 men would be amply sufficient for the colonies ; and that 3,000 or 4.000 men might safely be red uced in England. With respect to Ireland, casery person who wished for a better Government there ought to support this amendment. General Sif A RPE said, the harassing nature of the duties required of the army both in the colonies and at hooie was proved by the amount of 'the dead weight. There was not less than 81,000 invalids, while the whole amount of the error was only 87.000. He would not consent to the reduction of °- single man until it was clearly proved to him that his service's' could be dispensed with.—( Cheers.) The cavalry wee most useful force. With infantry it was impossible that a riot could be put down without bloodshed, chile a mob might b# 3 easily dispersed be cavalry without doing any great mischief. Mr. WARBI fRTON supported the amendment. The? were told the duties of the army were so severe that no reduc tion could take place without destroying their efficienca. He recollected that more than once motions were made for returns to show the mortality and the number of men invalided in thd colonies, but they were never agreed to. Was the Right; Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) now prepared to give such return ? Sir H. HARDINGE fully agreed with the Gallant Officer (General Sharpe) as to the inefficiency of infantry compared"!. cavalry, in putting down riots. Infantry must act either by fire or by the bayonet, but a mob might be dispersed by horses' without much mischief. It would not be easy to show wha t precise number of men were required in the colonies. W r i/c, - c ever should attempt to prove it logically would' find him much embarrassed. The Gallant Officer (Colonel Evan s, was on the Committee of Colonial Expenditure, and mus t ' therefore know that it never appeared in proof before that Com mittee that the troops in the colonies were too numerous. Mr. HUME said there were at present in the colonie9 5,000 men more than there had been on an average of wadi previous years. Were not some of the colonies overlaid w 4"" troops? What was the use of 2,500 men in Nova Scotia , which was perfectly quiet ? The only disturbance which oc curred in Canada within the last two years was occasioned by the military themselves. In Canada 5,000 troops were e dit ': enough, nearly as much as the whole army of the United States. Why not call upon the fourteen regiments of cavalry" to serve occasionally abroad'? Including seamen, marines: artillery, cavalry, and infantry, the country would be burdened with the support of not less than 150,000 men. Had 11 ° . Gentlemen opposite supported him in the reduction cd . the Malt Tax, and refused to Government the 5,000,0001. arising from that tax, they would be now under the necessity of de ducing the army, and of introducing economy in every partment. Why were they to have more men in England n 0 than in the years from 1819 to 1822 inclusive ? Their regu. policewas equivalent to at least 10,000 military. He vatol gt " to know what circumstances, either at home or abroad, re" quired such a force ? Every colony ()tight to maintain its ° saa troops, and would do so if freed from their present thraldom" In Ireland before the French war there never were more Lbw' 9,000 troops, and if the tithe question were once settled 12,000 or 13,000 men would be amply sufficient there. A u army was now kept up there principally to maintain s)Tteld of exaction. It presented the appearance of a gaans °ll ; With respect to the colonies Le believed that with judiciq management the mortality of the troops there might begreat i f diminished. All the reduction now asked for was mer el y a cessation of recruiting. Mr. HE RRI E S said that . the Hon. Member for D unde : should have favoured the House with the grounds Nthich ft° induced him, when in office, to form the opinion that a VC/ large reduction of the forces was practicable. The only tea" son, if such it could be called, put forward by the Hon. Ylec t ; her for Dundee was, that some years ago the amoun t forces was less than at present. Now, he would go back as far l , t , 1818, and then he found that the number of men was 94,8 4 '; being fourteen thousand more than the vote for the ensein; year. In 1819 the number was 92,000, and in 1820, 92,22'. In 1821 it was reduced to 81 000. In the subsequent yea r ' 1823, 1824, and 1825, the amount was considerably re duced ' If these were the years to which the Hon. Member for Dill" dee referred as a standard for trying what proportion of noir e bers should be voted, he would beg to ask him w hether t n . experiment of that extreme reduction was riot a total failuceac, It was, notorious that the experiment which was presT . upon the Government by the Honourable Member for Igl diesex, caused an increase of expense to the country, inas; much as it was absolutely necessary, after a trial o f tai years, to re-establish the previous number of men. He re t ls, a fact, which was superior to any argument the Hon. Medo i a could produce. It was alleged that the force maintained a the colonies was excessive, but if he referred to the yea r 179 e ' which was usually the test of Hon. Gentlemen on th e otke. e side, he found that in all the colonies we then posses sed i t p st forces amounted to 15,000, and in the same colonies we hala. present but 16,687 men. This was a very small excess , l i t , was easily accounted for by various causes. If he appeal e tat many Gallant Members opposite he thought they would atiP o that the duty now performed by the forces in the colonies extremely severe. The Right Hon. Gentleman having i r;: t ferred to the amount of the household forces, and stated t'l4„ since 1792 there was only an excess of 1,200 men in the valry regiments, said it was impossible that Hon. Mencr oa a could vote for the proposed reduction on the trifling obj ect ' which had been urged by the other side of the House. 0 Sir H. PANNELL briefly explained, and said that fli t the opportunities he had had of getting information be rof himself justified in declaring that a very large reduction forces was practicable. a of Mr. H. GRATTAN said' the forces in Ireland ainstea ha being 31,000 ought to be reduced to 4 , 000 , the amount a t establishment in 1782. rat After a few words from Major BE/A:CLERK and Ge ne SHALPE the Committee divided, when there appeared -- For the original vote appeared Against it Majority The vote was then agreed to. On being re-admitted into the gallery we found The CHAIRMAN proposing the sum of 2,978,000' gianted to defray the expenses of his Majesty's land forees' Lord A. CONYNG HAM objected to the vote, and r° ° s ao that it be reduced by 6,9001., the extra charge for the e]iP ea of the Life Guards over the Horse Guards. Sir After a few words from Mr. Berries, Sir H. Hardingeimr, C. D'Albiac, Lord Darlington, Captain Berkeley, an do , Hume, the Committee again divided, when there appear c For the original Vote 229 For the Amendment 57 Majority —l79 The vote was then agreed to. ler° On the motion that 78,4 341 . be granted to defrays d is t v to the principal officers in the several public departrnen' En Mr.gland and Ireland. o d e r HUME observed that several of the sums granted o u " ,ht • this head were very objectionable, and that the estimate all to, be reduced by half. He therefore would move , a' the amendment, that it be diminished by the sum of 6,40 0 1. i, t ae pay of the Adjutant-General; and 5,0001., the paY ° Quarter Master. For the amendment 43 For the original motion 196 Majority —l s3 9,4451. was granted to the Royal Military School en bernian Schools. On the resolution being put that the sum of 1,275,6 751 a., 6 a 5 ;a5a ° be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charge of and Kilmainham Hospitals—of the in-pensioners of tilos jo lly tablishments—and of the out-pensioners of Chelsea Octal° from the Ist April, 1835, to the 31st of March, 18 36 ' 366 days. e An Hon. MEMBER on the Opposition side of th e (name unknown) objected to the grant. o ' 6 ' Mr. H E'RR IE S said it was to pay the pensions cop . whom it would be cruel to keep out of their money. d The objection was withdrawn and the resolution agre„ r e& The CNAIRMArst was then ordered to report the aho" lotions to the House, and the House resumed. 1 BRITISH MUSEUM, c o titat let On the motion of Mr. H AWES, the following. Se. ae ag e 'l mittee was appointed to inquire into the condition, " ment, and affairs of the British Museum : port' Basses, B. Egerton, Lord Fran. Pease , . Baring, A. Ege toll, Sir P. de M. Peel, S.r Haring, W. B. Elphiostone, Bice, Boy:ring, Dr. E•trourt, I. G. B. Boss, C Jo" • Len t Carter, J. B. Ew.art, W. l'u s el!, , Clay, W. Fazakerley, J. N. (live, Rollert Hamilton, Lord C ScroPe , o rd Colborne, N. W. It. Inglis, Sir It. H. „S taDleY ' 0 Compton, HC. Kerry, Earl of J enn , r , o to Dalmeny, Lord Morpeth, Viscount Denison, Evelyt. Parker, J. W.irourtor, .10 , adl ev to Mr. BANNERMAN moved that the House do i a eas but he withdrew his motion, to allow the formal bus proceed. iancion,ol.l.c. __ POOR-LAW COMMISSI ONERS. ouni" c lylr. J. FIELDEN moved for "A return o f all eon' conl; ations addressed to the Central Board of Poor he o f the lcis for missioners_ from the mauufacturing districts Kingdom, representing that there are frequent &TO'. ioa 0 c oclit f g o the labour of whole families in those districts in those already to be found there; tocether with a rcturcno:ntici communications to the same Board from the s outh of England, representing that the dem and for t''"ernhbor of 00, such families is at present comparatively inadequatebe niacin return of all answers or communications directed to Y the correspc After a return Mr, Membe r under tt th e Hon The 1 to Reds ro r Agaii os'A.jt,el;:tki.. c e I Aoa'lght P' . in a of ti , l, ce P o ," Etc , fte )4l i g , rw ards 1 11 4tl t , T 0 see q r heir .e" Ot I le La, da " '''' and alth the e. pi a nl eet i tier:l.y at tl Ward It r kil at T er.. h =inner 0 r.. 6 P ov, ti on 4 qt..c ol N tercitl_l)ai 13 4 a ia te t unt a s ‘ l . •e, the l _ r g lt h th oßrd vi ew p rine e Yt'teri P Asil 7 to 4 t o 1 to 1(1 t o 1 - to 14 t t o 1 15 o 1 1 - to 1 IV ttl p it . arl C u ‘ 4 l;i: Sat I ' 4 Kt 4 " 4 ' N ki °4ll i ik ‘ e; Oat ,i _. ~. , ': a. ~.. 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