The Sun. — London, England, 1852-02-17 00:00:00

SUN, In the present year not more than 30,000 men would be required, and the expenses altogether would he under 200,0001, but a l a r ger sum woul d beta k en i n or d er to meet co ntingencies. Places would be exempted where there W I" a large police force drilled and armed, and Where volunteer corps had been formed.—(Hear, hear.) In answer t o M r. RE YNOLDS, for J. RUS SELL said he meant to bring in 0110 Bill I England and W a l es; anot h er B i ll would be required Mr S o %land. He did not mean t o ra i se a l oca l m ilitia In Ireland. r. tion REYNOLDS did not know whether the exemp of Ireland was intended as a boon or a compliment. aughter.) He could no t ce rt a inly accept it as a toij• i„;P1 ftugu4lient; and certainly if there were need of a local 1,,7 41 in England, there was still greater need in Ire- Is where the coasts were more exposed to danger. In answer to a question from Sir J. PAKINGTON, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the militia of each /313 unty would not be moved from its own county ex eept by its own consent, or in case of a foreign invasion. ` r Ur. HU ME had heard the statement of the Noble -I,ord with great regret. He saw no reason for any au gmentation of the military force, and if there was t b° any increase, ho thought it would bo more ,▪ t v antageous to increase rho regular army.—(Heo,r.) o thought it would be morally add physically injurious 40 the people, dragging them from their home and ens -1)10 Meru and engenderiwg iu them military habits and that The ide a wa s that we were to hav e a militi a i u or d er the the r egu l ar troo p s m i g ht b e rea d y to b e sent out o f " country. But where were they to be sent to? Did 2 13 Y one fancy teat a British soldier would ever again seen on the continent us an aggressor. Certainly n o t, an d ho thought that this was the 111. St step o f a re t urn to that system which had plunged th e country into an enormous debt. He should certainly oppose the propo s iti o n to every e xtent in his power, and c would give them notice that at a future stage he should move that every mall called out for the militia should ever after be entitled to the suffrage. Colonel THOMPSON could not help thinking that t he country would be too glad to see the Government doing anything to bo ready, not for what sensible and intelligent men should do, but for the attempts of hot iheadel and rash men. He saw by the public journals' t ' lt the general officers of the French army had re ceived orders to hold themselves, both materiel and per "nel, ready by the 22d inst. He supposed the order had reference to the present Ruler of France declaring tirnaelf Emperor. He might call himself Emperor or 4t atnamouchi if he chose, but if he was master of his _tlad e h e wou ld go on unt il h e was stoppe d ; and see i ng y i le hostile designs he was said to e n t erta i n aga i nst theeigiura there was enough to convince the country of propriety of heing prepared for any contingency. Colonel SII3THORP said that last year when everybody thought of nothing else but the Great Exhibition— Laughter) —th e F renc h G overnmen t an d ours were " hail fellow well met," and French visitors to this country , whe ther military or civilian, were allowed to enter and inspect We docky ar d s, the Tower, and a ll t h e arsena ls. Nothing as spoken of then but reform and retrenchment; now they :Tem told it was necessary to be prepared for hostilities, and ! fl eY were to have a force created which was to add to the Itsii l uence of the G overn m e nt and heavily increase the taxa e° of the country. From the low tone of vo i c e in which v, the noble L or d spoke he had found it imposs ible to learn Ze whole of the provisions of the plan, and certainly the • aner and tone in which it was brought forward threw ' ere . so , a t suspicion over the scheme. The old militia might be Zed out at a less expense, and would constitute a more ' L cient force. Si c 11. VERNEY bore testimony to the orderly character ordisciplined bodies of men generally, and, as an instance, reotioned that he know a regiment which, at its own ex- „nos supp or t e d a library of 6,000 or 7,000 _volumes. He eip u(l ,Cota however, believe that a force could be made effi eo„Tiuy a fortniht's or a mouth's training in the year. He • have wished the Noble Lord had taken the present stor e of cons id er i ng the military force, so as to make it ec attractive to the working classes. He should wish e Militia to be made a connecting link between the work c.lasses and the army, so as to recruit the latter from the , e ~ili and the militia from the working classes. At all j„„ er lts, he believed it necessary to organize a local force, not q uit a ggression, but for defence, and nothing could be done in respect more economically than by creating a local liZ• tio- If the Government was remiss on that subject, and 'Y la . disaster happened to the country from such remiss lens ' the Government would be handed down to posterity 1 16 . 1 . execration. He (Sir H. V.), in conclusion , expressed t i..7belief that the people of England would not refuse the r fit'erase, as an assurance fur the maintenance of all prospe 4-namely, the security of the country. c• M. O'CONNELL hoped the Noble Lord would re • ider the question of extending the measure to Ireland. could not see why Ireland should be lett unprotected any CO) than England. In the county which he represented— eTals peaceful county—the whole coast line from Ba ntry 3' to the Shannon was pierced with harbours, wherein • enemy might put without hindrance, seeing that there ?re only the county constabulary force, and a few coast rVird men, some 500 or 600 in number, to resist them. He Ltsd, therefore, that justice should be done to Ireland, more tr e k . ially as the Fren h c had twice succeeded in landing in Country on former occasions. COBDE a; said the Hon. Member (Sir H. Verney) asked whether the people of England would not pay an auance for the preservation of all they possessed? He Cobden) had no hesitation in saying that they would— Whethernec wa s essary. The quesion at issue, hwever, was not I._ an insurance shou ld t he paid by the o people of Eng • nd, but whether they had not already paid one ; whether 47,were not insured enough? It was like a man being haply insured in the Phoenix having it proposed to him to p e Ze besides in the Royal Exchange. The question for the is am P r i e e ,of England to ask was, whether they were not amply ig nor :? He maintained they were. It was the custom to the or pretend to ignore the amount of money spent on so ur of national defence in this country. The b ee ea h ti M was, whether, with the money that had 4 0 .' so spent, ample provision ha 4 been made i. ll st aggression ; whether, in short, a due use b,..7 3 made of the forces which the country possessed ? This ght him (Mr. Cobden) to the amount of the whole , e `ge for th e navy s i nce t h e c l ose o f t h e war — a per i o d o f 37 % a rk How much did the House think it was? No less ph. ; 411 250 millions of money. But as that period might be 1 4eted to as including too much time, he would take the eri years —ten years being the average life of a ship. 1 4 7, did the account stand on this case? This country had that time paid, for the wages of artificers in making and pf7 i ri n __ng ships of war for the use of the naval service , a sum arstu_ „,000/. ; it had paid 113,400,0001. for the articles and e,uals used in the construction and repair of such ships; b oin 't had aid 3,000,000/. more for repairs and improve bea I ' S in hereveral dockyards. What would a private ship ), der say, if after laying out a sum of 23,000,0001. in ten n e e r, loud cry was raised at the end of that time that the At & W all in a state of inefficiency — that there were no ships kit . aea—and that the country should apply to a foreign Vate,„:t s traneous service for its defence against possible in c He (Mr. Cobden) maintained that England was d o ii - oantly secure as far as the cost went. But what was * h e With the ships? He heard much talk of invasion ; but th e er c, were the fleets? One squadron was up to the present ,9211 the Tagus—he understood it was now ordered home. It a ; F ie Mediterranean, however, how many large vessels of thi ti Z t ° say nothing ot the smaller craft—id he House tr y? were sunning themselves 1,200 miles from this coun- He would read the list. There were the 411.• i0n Guns. Guns. ic . def4tig ..... .. 91 Bellerophon ..... n ee able 5O Phoenix 11 ........... .. 110 Trafalgar 120 T 1 4 411" t did not, as he said, include smaller vessels. Was ;t, - tis e - - - - - ,),,,i,..refore, the conduct of rational people to raise a cry of .at i ii' l oo, accompanied by a demand for a militia force, f ar e their ships, the natural defence of the country, were so th e a waY from home, doing nothing? . But to say nothing of war in commission, in th2e ships, the number of d s h h a i ofships s bours of England, was stall tiely-arious naval p . or h t . s li a t n to invasions, or at least to prevent „,„.,,o_ avert any ti' l ' e ti from being liability y ened unnecessarily on that point. 10 0, r e Were in Sheerness the London, 92 guns; the Water th 120 ; te ster, 81 ; the Neptune, 120; the Rodney, 102; the Man_ the Blenheim,Portsmouth h hat t l h ia e in te *„ e re were also several large 98, . and others. e i r , s o . ships. In Devon '` r e the Victory and the Excellent. and . rtslmn %ber in port there were Milford Haven th e B, including the Impregnable; 1 1 r e were more. In fact, in the har ,attie h • and four frigates lying p oll 8 ips .there . were ten line-of doing 1 1 „, i r l ! of England, rotting 11 their waters, aid for a large force of l iZ t lug. This which,c.oitr f y had P w a o l uld be forthcoming when lion r equired. also, T e her c e on w rs e e r'e line-of-battle ships besides the West Indies and in the East Indies; though what Ilse 1, 4 t l' o battle ship could be in Jamaica, or what use t0i 1 ,4 Made of f a line of battle ship in the East Indies, he (Mr. to en) could not tell. , Indeed, he challenged any one to %,"' that for many years a line-of-battle ship in either place sa s h. e ver called into requisition. Zia They had of course, all l iarti of attacks on the pirates of the Eastern seas, and Par al me at had paid kead-money on a late occasion for the fighte r of 5 , 000 pe rsons alleged to be pirates • but there line-of-battle ship employed against thes: ° t been a single bloody work had been done by ate Pirates and all the 44%1 ' 'line-of-battle ships, therefore, lying in the h ag !' To keep 1 of Singapore, or llongkong, was I nerels;" ° nra of Jamaica, waste of money. Thi s count; a n idle show and a ar gum 'Y was not afraid of monstrousany attack upon her colonies. The present demand was that inya tiah went in support of the ' land was so near France ; Vhes..." aB i nnninent, because were any danger, conse bees:'4 the colonies were 4,000 miles distant from a bucca stue",ng expedition. If there d be done was to order lying idle and useless 120 ' 11" t he first thing that should N,h''e those large vessels now eitirhe those were. The Noble Lord the opening of the Bes s i c ,.." antagonism to his speech at iut himself in a N.. th e "' The Noble had taken great lih,rtnewaeaper press of this country person - Lord said on the latter occasion that had lies that the news with the President of France; but that this 1)4 "d in England himself, and knowing. news- R° Press a „ opinions of the as free, and might therefore be licentious, he ne w ti ,, d net take it for granted that the Eh oir'PaPers were the opinions of the people men( C ,.„ °h ien). however, felt bound to say that the n in d. m, H ,e s . Put il- c, a ,ue by the Noble ' Lord that night—the France and to the b n;,. lll, was ten times more menacing to France . the ',.Ven Who governed it than all that had been . said by on ...thia;Wapapers, even though . the Noble Lord did no l'he az a elon speak in the voice of the people of England. ti s „ ' oble Lord, it was true, stated that the force iu qu h es; i n n' would not be employed except in case of invasioie u ot, hei c' n ri g i nating an elastic force of 80,000 men,. capable th a expanded into Iro 000 the Noble . Lord did far more -4 t he j ' ' took upon himself to lecture, to Pro w , Press, wh;ch he Iti e mi the President and to irritate the Frencl peo ha p d le n .. ; Itifo ar, hear,) But the Noble Lord, that the French q csir r ined the House of anything to show nevertheless, in elitie,lnnent of the present day was not as peacefullyo osi- Va t , ' towards England as the Noble Leader of the . p nt P • nor 1: 11 -- , teadted it to be in the other House of Parliam m e_ ad: the i ra `,,_n e one anything to remove from the public i regarded such 1 ,,,1', , ,_ asion made by the Queen's Speech as ;rVen.c intentions on the part of France—an impressionratio .." . A_ n had made the public funds go up in the same L ,s , 1 _ nn doubt they would go down when tbe Noble L ord _ I;LOPosition should be made public. The Noble Lord 1,..ae bound to show why there was more danger from 1- 14 nee now than there in 1848, when the Noble 'Ara was ultimately Withdrew proposed to call out the militia, but the i that to On that occasion (1848) "le 1 ord Id . for the course he proposed th e fa ' a( uesd as oue reason ,„,_ ct that the King of the French, during his long mad I.„4_,ceful reign, had nearly doublcd the number of ship ill'eur_force in the French navy. On the present occasion t s tol e Was no attempt made by the Noble Lend to sh?wna a __ . was the case. On the contrary, he (Mr. Cobden) 1( 4 ) : m the French new spapers—such, at least, as were al se,ren to be printed—tbat there syss a talk of laying up ws ti e f al. shins of the French nava% Of course that statement _ a be taken for what it was worth ; hut it was certainly _lioe, and as certainly the Noble Lord had said nothing of LTMentation. Another argument used by the Noble Lord '•" 1648 Was that Frazee had then on foot 2,000, 000 of Na tional Guards. Tyat argument,' however, was of no force now, as the National Guard was dissolved. Therefore, on the Noble Lord's own showing, this country was much less liable to molestation at the present moment than it was in 1848, when he relinquiphed his own preposition to embody the militia at that - period. He (Mr. Cobden) was, how ever, afraid, from the observations of the Honourable and Gallant Member afor__:B._radford.. in.....retspect to Belgium, that this country las on the eve of being dragged into a continental quarrel ;—(Hear)—and that calling out the militia was preliminary to sending out the regular force to fight on the Continent for foreign interests. After the lesson taught to England in the last war, however—after the tree • chery with which she had been repaid for the lavish expen diture of her blood and money'upon foreigd'oations, he (Mr. Cobden) doubted Verynthch whether, the people of England would allow any Government whatever, Whig or Tory, to drag the country into another continental war. If they did, then they would richly deserve the catastrophe of national bankruptcy, which would be inevitable in respect of a people so impervious to sense and so forgetful of the lessons of ex perience. With regard to the proposition before the House, he (Mr. Cobden) had no hesitation in saying that calling out the militia would be highly unpopular with all classes, espe cially with the poor, who could not afford to pay for substi tutes ; and he was satisfied that the Noble Lord would see once again the same public hostility to the measure as he met with in respect to his measure of 1818. A mere fraction of the people was proposed to bo taken from their homes and placed under martial law for no purposes of their own.— ( Ilear.) If 150,000 soldiers were wunted they should be paid for as such—paid liberally; but to call upon a poor man, who, perhaps, earned 4s per day, to come from his shop, and to leave that labour which barely sufficed for the support of his family, and to place himself under martial Ilw for Is. or ls. 3d. per day, was, in his (Mr. Cobden's) opinion, to commit an act of the most flagrant injustice.— ( Hear.) The navy was the national guardian of England. The Noble Lord had no business to contemplate the possi bility of invasion if the navy was properly kept np—an in vasion either by a band of brigands or by a regular army. A Swiss Baron had written about an invasion of England, it is true, with 150,000 men ; but that matter had been disposed of by the professional men of this kingdom, who proved that all the ships owned by France would not suffice for the pur pose. Another plan had, however, been put forward by the Army and Nary Journal—namely, that France might land from 10,000 to 15,000 men on a given portion or portions of the coast, which force, though not strong enough to occupy the country militarily, or effect any important strategical operations, might nevertheless cause irreparable injury. In this manner it was urged a buccaneering expedition might visit the Thames, and levy a Canton ransom on the me tropolis. This he (Mr. Cobden), however, looked upon as a libel upon the French army.—(Laughter.) It would be an act of piracy at all events, unless a declaration of war was made. It was said that the French army was anxious to avenge Waterloo. Hanging 10,000 men, which, no doubt, would be the fate of such a body of invaders, would not, however, be a very satisfactory means of avenging Waterloo. It was also said, that such a force would burn the ships in the harbours of Englund. If they did, they would burn at the same time the ships of other na tions—America, Dutch, and others, in the ports of this country also. That, however, would cause all these maritime state to coalesce, and the nation that performed such an act of piracy would be hunted, if not from the face of the earth, at least from the face of the ocean, by these united powers. All that he (Mr. Cobden) asked was, that the ships of war, which cost England nearly 8,000,0001. a-year, should be so disposed of as to satisfy the fears of the timid. As regarded the pre sumed intention of their nearest neighbour, England paid twice as much for her navy as France, and three times as much as was paid by America, because she was an island and needed ships to defend her shores; but now. the Govern ment, notwithstanding the insular position of England, pro posed to call out the militia to protect the country against invasion. lie (Mr. Cobden) hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord would not press his proposition to a division, but would postpone it so as to give time for the country to decide on the question. He (Mr. Cobden) had seen a panic manufactured in 1848, greater even than the present panic, and he had seen it defeated. The Noble Lord regretted the withdrawal of his Bill in 1848. Why did he regret it? The leading organ of public opinion at this moment said, that England was never safer than when France was under the constitu tional government of an Assembly, which she was at that period. He (Mr. Cobden) hoped the good sense of the people, therefore, would as effectually resist any attempt to manufacture a panic now as it did in 1848. It was a cry got up by certain newspapers, which had nothing else to write about in the Parliamentary recess, and was not the feeling of the country. Viscount PALMERSTON and Mr. F. Maule rose at the same time; but the latter gave way to the cry of the House for the former. The Noble Lord said he concurred with his Hon. and Gallant Friend on the same side of the House who had expressed his satisfaction that her Majesty's Government were doing something at last on the subject then under discussion. His (Viscount Palmerston's) satis faction was not, however, founded on any opinion which he entertained that there was immediate or pressing danger; or, in fact, any cause which had not existed at former moments. He trusted that the relations of England with that country from which danger was most apprehended to arise were as friendly as they could be, and that no question was likely to spring up which would expose this country to any such danger. But the Noble Lord at the head of the Go vernment knew perfectly well that he (Vicount Palmerston) had taken the liberty of impressing on him several times since the year 1846, upon general principles, that it was necessary for the present safety and lasting interests of this country that some such measures of precaution should be taken as those now proposed by the Noble Lord's Go vernment, and about to be undertaken. He (Viscount Pal merston) had repeatedly renewed his instances, as the Noble Lord would bear him witness; but difficulties had inter vened which prevented their being adopted. He was glad, however, that these difficulties had disappeared at last. and that her Majesty's Government were now about to provide in a more adequate manner for the defence of the country. — (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken said that England should not provoke a continental war, or mix herself in the quarrels of foreign nations; and, as a general principle, he (Viscount Palmerston) gave that pro position his fullest approval. But, as the Noble Lord at the head of the Government said, England had engagements of long standing,which might involve her in such dispute, de spite even of her own inclination—political engagements which extended beyond the limits of her own shores. — (Hear, hear.) She had also commercial interests scattered widely over the whole globe. There was, in fact, no country in the world where England had not subjects, property, or commerce.—(Hear, hear.) And he (Viscount Palmerston) was bound to say that the questions of the slightest appearance were very often the most dangerous as between nations. This was proved in the administration of Sir Robert Peel when a question of that nature came to involve the honour and dignity of a neighbouring country.—(Hear.) lion. Gentleman talked of the danger of a rupture with France alone, because of her fleet and army; but the House should bear in mind that France was not the only power in Europe which possessed a large fleet and a large army. And if this country was involved in a foreign war, there was no saying how widely the flame would spread, or how far those other countries would take advan tage of the position of England.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said that this country being insular, and possessing for that reason a fleetfor its defenee, the natural defence of England was the navy- That very insular position, may, however, in some cases, be the source of danger for this country. Continental states were acces , sible only by certain roads which were strongly fortified at the points of entrance by extensive fortresses. The shores of England, however, were open for the entire circumference of the island ; and upon such an immense extent of space it would be impossible to foresee where an invading force might land. Then t he Channel was narrow ; and, as Lord Howe said, " the sea was a wide place." Three days might bring a consider able force from distant places, and few be the wiser of it.—(Hear.) He (Viscount Palmerston) believed the British navy to be as efficient at this mo ment as at any former period of its history ; in deed, he believed it to be more efficient. There was a great amount of valuable stores in the arsenals of this country, and a great many ships in her dockyards ; but was that 'any reason that the people of England should not take all necessary precaution to prevent an enemy from coming into their ports, and burning the one while they destroyed the others, before they could be manned to offer effective resistance? He (Viscount Palmerston) complained of the exaggeration of his Hon. Friend in enu merating the ships in commission in England. The Ex cellent, quoted by his Hon. Friend, was only for target practice, and the Victory was all but a tender —never sent to sea, and perhaps unfit for other service. But efficient as the navy undoubtedly was, it would be madness to rely solely and entirely upon it as regarded the defence of this country from foreign invasion. It was impossible for any navy, however effective, to prevent the landing of a hostile force altogether, considering the short in terval which separated the shores of this country—he would say from France—while on the other and more dis tant points to which an expedition might be directed— Ireland for instance—it would be much more successful in landing, because those points were necessarily less guarded. Well, then, if it were necessary to have a land force under such circumstances, armed men to resist armed men—for as to fortifications it would be useless to think of fortifying any points except the arsenals and dockyards, there being no fortifications like brave men, such as would always be found, men with strong hearts and sinewy arms—Englishmen— if, therefore, a large armed force was needed—he hoped it would not be so, but it always was less so in proportion as a nation was prepared for resistance, nothing being so tempting as weakness and incapacity conjoined with great wealth (Hear)—if it was necessary that this country should have a force capable of defending their homes and altars against an invading army, against the incalculable calamity which even a month's occupation of the country, or any large por tion of it, by an invading army would involve—something like the mode proposed by the Noble Lord seemed to him fami liespte ancteal peaceful di avocationse Gentlemen h t (Viscount Palmerston) the only plan available for that purpose, —(gear, hear.) It was mighty well for Honourable their r talk o a t n t hde teachingb uthardshipsth the people them p o e f takingo pto oi. defend E m n e g n lt a f h r ne o di m r their war, or they would not w did not coun t r y know h ; fortu natelyathweseirteate thae moment t tie a s t any course to avert it. Gentlemen . who served course knew what these calamities were • and evenonad rooptahtdi actual onosgef persons who read with attention the history ' of former wars might form some conception of them; but he (Viscount Palmerston) could not picture to his mind any greater calamity as possible than the landing of a hostile force on the shores of England sufficient to oufpLt time. Well, country ell timonr wasany large portion of it, for any length of im p f o o r r ta ce ilal i e n ee the regular army sufficient? He was satisfied that the habits, the feelings, and the finances of the country would amount peace, The United and organized and not permffiitcietnhtemto tdoeflasnavde the an country peace sufficient Y , the one thing, in a time of war.— (Hear.) What, then, could theyha a v n e d — . wh which every country of magnitude ready States of in force time o rmoafnwt in ar ttimeu war.--(Haar.) of disciplined a America did not feel the hardship which e complained — that of being called on to learn the use of arms to defend in there was 1,000,000 of militia in the United States. Ger manycase of need their homes and their country. did not feel the hardship, and in Prussia there was a large amount of dormant military force. France had recog nised the same principle by partially re-organizing the militia defence. These countries had followed our example of having a militia, though we had discontinued the militia of lateyears. But certainly there was no country having such enormous wealth, and so many vast interests at stake, which possessed so little defence against invasion. What was wanted were men trained, disciplined, and organized in time of peace, who were only to be assembled for a short time in each year to learn the practice and movements of the regular troops. Without this amount of discipline, a body of armed men, however large, was a mob, not an army.—(Hear.) What the country required was to have a body of men, who, on the breaking out of war, would be found under arms ready to defend their country. A regular militia would supply that kind of force. They bad had a militia for nearly two centuries, and he thought, therefore, there could be no difficulty in the way of organizing that force. He confessed he did not quite understand the difference raised by the Noble Lord in reference to the regular and the local militia, and the preference fur local militia advocated by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord said the regular militia was formed by ballot or by euhetituus. The local militia did not allow LONDON, of substitutes except in certain exemptions, but required personal service. The old militia force was the old consti tutional force of the kingdom ; it was trained and officered, and required to do duty each year for twenty-eight days, and was prepared to join the regular army in the defence of the country should war take place. The regular militia of Great Britain and Ireland was liable to serve in any part of the United Kingdom. Now he was really astonished that in any plan for the defence of the realm Ireland should be left entirely without protection. Local militia, as advocated by the Noble Lord, would be entirely confined to Great Britain. Why was not Ireland provided for? Did Government doubt the loyalty of Ireland ?—(Hear.) He pledged his existence there would not be found a single Irishman, if called out to serve, and who had taken the oath of loyalty to his Sovereign and his country, who would not lose his life in defence of both.—(Cheers.) For his own part, he had the greatest confidence in the Irish militia— they would to a man b 3 found true to their oath and their Sovereign—and as to their courage, that was sufficiently known.—(Loud cheers.) If the country was to have a militia he could not understand why so complicated an arrangement as that devised by the Noble Lord should be preferred. It seemed to him that a simple force, like the regular militia, might be raised at less personal inconvenience The regular militia permitted substitutes —the regular was available all over the United Kingdom, whereas the local militia would only be stationed in county by county, and they could not be called into action until too late to do essential service. He would, therefore, respectfully submit to her Majesty's Government the expediency of leaving out the word " local" in their Bill. He would suggest they should simply leave out the word " local," and bring in a Bill to amend the Acts of 1802, which regulated the regular militia. There were many other things to be considered. The system of ballot might be improved—the infusion of a uumber of half-pay officers acquainted with the practical duties of the service would give an efficient tone to the service. The suggestions if neglected would give the local militia simply the character of an awkward squad. He did not approve of the plan of having men by detachments of ten from one place and twenty from another. They might depend upon it no real discipline could be given to a body of men unless trained by battalions—and unless they were practised in those con certed movements necessary to be taught, and useful in action against an enemy. He was exceedingly glad Govern ment had come forward with a measure for providing for the defence of the country by a force of this character. He was satisfied the militia afforded the best means by which danger could be averted, and the best force to have recourse to in case of invasion ; but he considered the measure before the House was susceptible of improvement, and that the regular militia ought to be the standard by which the pre sent measure should be regulated.—(Cheers.) Mr. F. MAULE joined heartily in the expressions of applause with which the House had received the speech of the Noble Lord, and he rejoiced to hear his Noble Friend pre pared with a militia force for its defence. His Noble Friend bear testimony ti the necessity of the count r y being (Lord Palmerston) thought the proposal of Lord J. Russell would be benefited by substituting a regular, instead of a local, militia. That subject, he could assure the Noble Lord, had undergone mature consideration at the hands of Government; and, for reason which were perfectly convinc ing, it appeared to Government to be the preferable course to confine the measure to a militia of a local charaeter ra ther than to propose a permanent system of militia. The regular militia was composed principally of substitutes. Even in time of peace the very act of allowing individuals to serve by substitute created so much confusion, that should the service of the men be required abroad, it would be quite impossible to make them available. This course had, therefore, been abandoned. The system of regular militia which permitted substitutes would not work well, especially in time of war. In the present measure Government did not profess to go so far as the system of regular militia ; all they wished to do was to enable a force to be mustered which was easy of action whenever the necessity should arrive for having recourse to their service. The local force proposed to be established was, as he thought, the most preferable force. By the old system of the regular militia it would take many weeks before the ballot would be con cluded, and some months before the force could be made available. Government proposed by a local militia not to extend the system so far as under the old Militia Act. The expense and the inconvenience of ballot, and taking married men from their families, would thus be ren dered inconsiderable. One of the advantages of com bining men of twenty or twenty-three years of age was that you got them mustered with far more facility than under the old system. Except in case of invasion, or rumour of invasion, they were not to be called to serve out of their locality. This plan he considered was simple, and easy, and economical, and would produce a force which would be found essential for the purposes for which it might be required. The Hon. Member for Mo ntrose had compared this measure to conscription in Fran ce. Now he h eld it to be the duty of every man in the country to contribute by all means in his power to the preservation of the liberties and interests of his country. The Hon. Member for Montrose, however, attached the odious name of conscription to such a duty. Me replied that he considered it was the constitu tional obligation of every man to rally round his h earths and altars; and he considered that by that obli g ation all men were bound.—(Cheers.) The inhabitants of twenty to twenty_three years of age were to be first called upon to serve their country for four years. During that period they were not to be taken out of their own localities, except in case of invasion. They were only to submit to a drill of fourteen, or at most twenty-eight days. This was a light duty, and he for one should be disappointed if such a proposition went to the country to be hooted as unpopular and as a conscription of the people. The Hon. Member for the West Riding said he should prefer the regular army to any other force of the country. The lion. Member for Montrose would no doubt oppose the vote for an increase of 4,000 for the army, and he suspected the Hon. Member for the West Riding would support him.—( Hear.) The lion. Member for the %Vest ,Riding said nothing was so menacing to France as this pro position. He could not understand why there should be any thing menacing to any foreign nation in a proposition for providing means to defend your own country. He could not understand how an act of self-protection should he menacing to any country.—(Hear.) He was willing to take his share of the blame tor not having moved in this direction sooner. He confessed the time had come, and Government certainly were remiss in not having taken the steps which they now took. He anticipated that a foundation was now laid for establishing a home force, which was never to be called into the field until there was an absolute necessity for their services. He could not object to see a portion of the community trained to arms who had something to lose— who would not be mere substitutes for other men—substi tutes drawn from the dregs of the people, and dangerous men to be trained to the use of arms. The force which would now be raised would consist of such men whom it was right to train to arms for the defence of the country. The subject would be further entered into when the Bill was brought forward. The Noble Lord had made some objections to the details. He would say there was an objection that t h e measure should be r e f erred to the consideration o f a select committee upstairs. There was one part to which he would make a few remarks. The Hon. Member for Dublin asked if Ireland was to be included in the Bill? He replied that neither Ireland, nor Scotland formed any por tion of the Bill. It was limited to England, as it was to that part of the United Kingdom it'avas considered essential to apply the militia system, Ireland was not expected on account of any doubt about the loyalty of Irishmen; for all knew if danger threatened this country or the Crown there was not a single man in Ireland, whatever his religion or Hear') Mr. NEWDEGATE, after po litical opinions, but would fl y a cou ntry and rally round his Salm len referringat once t t o h o t th e defence the d re e ee n n e t e m o o f rd h e is r o:,ol%ttlird. notßu Burns binyißsleodrneboy pgiruaitdteiss, themselves such fallible r relative h i nt d iovl h eBh4 e atsod h h o te p h ea did necessity hithertod. e t s e o stHi provedtt yh o iufnos think prophets et peace. He did not wish further orttale defencean partt to our th e questi territories.st additional defence was required, but after a careful inquiry into the subject from those most Compet ent advice he mas convinced of the necessity of supporting the di in details. 1852ai 1s t o he give i n supported correct 1848 h e measure of her Majesty's Government. H e did not mean, opposed however, the to embodimentgi veh supports ef the h t e o all ii i h a e ; the proposition for the militia. He believed some parts of the present Militia Bill were likely to prove useful, and he consideredin giving th e measure h is support. protest against the general rdoing rose his duty t() Mr.r . E. h Be. was ßo c He entirel tone of argument adopted that night. were act . nge con curred in the eulogium passed by the Noble (Lord Palmerston) on the loyalty and courage of the Irish people. But in what they were doing, bringing forward an act for the further self-defence of the country, would Govern ment allow him to ask whether they fairly or prudently towards a people described by the Noble ue newspapers to Ireland, Lord as pre-eminently loyal? It was folly to th•- , lux the acts of that House would not be canvassed in England, i n and on the Continent. They might be assured that continental nations would say, " while England is arming ITiertsinelefilarpl defence against hostility, is there not an important portion o r people, for such a the kingdom, either by neglect or design, left undefended?°,, Let Members speak boldly and plainly. He had seen • h tit pain writings and publications in Irish to invite a French invasion. He had seen with p tending disgust those publications. He deplored the fact pin such things having been written, he deplored the effect and the act ; but he also deplored the conduct of her Majesty's vernment in hesitating at arming the Irish proceeding added a kind of colouring to the base and wicked attempts and arguments of misguided people. lie did agree with the views of the Ha n. Member f or the not West Riding. He believed the voluntary system was the best, cheapest, and most constitutional mode of defence. I f that were so, in what position was Ireland placed? What the Noble Lord said was true—the better defended and prepared a country was, the less was the chance of invasion. But if they took care that Ireland should not be armed, what was that but an advertisement to France," Soldiers my be landed here." Such would be the consequences of excluding Ire land from the Bill. There was no doubt Ireland con tained a few disaffected men, bat the great majority of the the ground on which lie calledupon Government. if they loyal and peaceful Irish people were as loyal as the p eo p le of England. That wa s were well affected to her Majes t y 's The Bill excluded subjects, to give them the same means of protecting their country as they had given to Eng land. Ireland and Scotland. He hoped, however, like the new Reform Bills, that they were to have separate Bills to effect the same object. If not, it would be nothing short of a declaration to Europe, that the people of Ireland were not to be depended upon. If they did this they would commit a great mistake as statesmen, and practically they would also calumniate the Irish people. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member was wholly unwarranted in supposing that Ireland had been excluded from the Bill on account of any distrust in the loyalty of the people of Ireland. Had Ireland been introduced into the present Bill it would have created great confusion on account of the great number of parishes and unions. The Bill for a local militia was made not to apply to Scotland ; but Government did not mean thereby to imply distrust of Scotland, or that the people were not as loyal as the people of England. Government said this was a local militia Bill, and they would apply it to England only. There was one thing that would have to be considered—the police force employed in the metropolis and the large towns. The ques tion to be decided was, whether they should be allowed to form a part of the quota of militia to be contributed by the respective districts, or to be exempted from the obligations of the Militia Act (as we understood.) The Irish constabu lary was a fine body of men, they had always behaved well, and were ready at the call of duty. They numbered 10,000 or 12,000. This body of police would be taken into consi deration when a Bill was introduced for Ireland. The ques tion was, w h et h er t h e pres ent Bill wo u ld b e f o ll owed up b y Certainly bea Bill H a for either had b een now i ntro d uc ed, that res u l te d from no want of confid ence in the loya lt y o f th e people of those countries. fßorilllrwel - Captain HARRIS said it was perfectly disgraceful to have a panic about invasion every two or three years. Our commercial relations were larger than those of any other country, and on that account we required a larger navy. If we took our rival, with whom at present we were at peac e, it would be found that it had a sufficient line-of-battle force inmen and guns to cope With us. H e could not con siderour ships in harbour as efficient ships, and unless men w had to nun them h e cou l d iiot pee w here th e i r e to be T. ./VEN ING, TUESDAY efficiency was. He hoped gentlemen had matur , rd a plan for manning the navy. The present Bill gave them t a good op portunity of considering the subject. The rear on why he had not brought forward a measure on the subj ect last ses sion was because the House was so much occupit d with the mercantile marine measure. Sir F. BARING thought he should be able , a an early day to bring in a measure on the subject, and hop , sd the Hon. and Gallant Member would therefore postpone oily motion w ith regard to it. Mr. S. HERBERT bore testimony to the fact s tated by the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, that the opinion which he bad expressed to-night on the subj jact of the militia was no new opinion, for when he (Mr. He ,bert) held the office of Secretary of War the Noble Lord frequently questioned him on the subject. Those question ea had not been without effect, for the late Government beta ate so fully persuaded of the necessity of taking some steps i 3 the mat ter, that at the desire of the Right Hon. Baronet t ie Member for Ripon, than Secretary for the Home Departm ant, and of the late Sir Robert Peel, he (Mr. Hen test) drew up a Bill for the revising of the militia laws, wit 6t the view of bringing the subject before Parliament. Hew as glad the Government had taken the matter in hand. It was most impolitic and very uneconomical to place the con :try- in an alternate state of panic and economy. He quite a greed with the llon. Gentleman that the military service of t 3c country should be organised, so that the greatest efficienc) • should be had for the money expend e d. In a country like ; this, and with the prejudices and feelings that existed on t he subject, t was impossible to have a standing army so lard .st as might be necessary. Recourse, therefore, must be he 4 to some method by which the services of large masses mi ght be ob tained without the necessity of maintaining the en all the year round. It appeared to him that 'some inc envenience might arise from the Government having dealt . with the local rather than with the general militia. The local militia differed from the general militia in many points, but the distingeishieg point between them was, the t the local could not be moved out of their counties exce pt in cases of invasion or of an apprehension of invasi on. There appeared to him, therefore, this objection, that ex actly at the time when invasion was appreh ended, and when negociations were most critical and delicab i t it might be wished to move troops down to the coast, whi ch, if done, would look very like a declaration of war. If t he militia were embodied on the principle of the regular in that need not be done, but as the proposal stood, it would in a case of emergency tend to the inconvenience he h ad pointed out. He certainly regretted to hear the Right Ho D. Gentle man state that the Government were willing to • refer the subject to a Select Committee. He thought th, 3 question was one which the Government ought to deal wit It on their own responsibility, and must protest against m eking the House of Commons, instead of the Ministry, resp onsible for the measure.—(Hear.) Sir G. GREY said that the essential distinctio a between the local militia and the general militia was that tl to one was offensive and the other defensive. All that they so tight to do by this proposal was to provide for the defence of ti se country against invasion. During the last war the regul tar militia was established in order to leave every soldier fr ee, not for the purposes of internal defence, but for carryin; ; on a war on the Continent; and it was well known to all that that militia did duty in the United Kingdom and in Ireland as soldiers, and was also available as a means o f recruit ing the regular army. But the present measure was pro posed with no such intention. No foreign war was anti cipated in which this country must take a part. If such a case should recur Parliament would be called up, to to take the means necessary to maintain the honour and i; oterests of the country. All that they had at present in vie rev was to provide a defence against foreign invasion, and the local militia appeared to be a force suitable for that purpose. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that tl so calling out the local militia might :endanger negociations and lead to war. Mr. S. HERBERT—The moving of them don a to the coast from one county to another. Sir G. GREY asked if the moving of the reguls 3r militia would not have the same effect? The object the Govern ment had in view was purely defensive, and was; one of which no foreign nation could justly complain, b :cause it could not be used aggressively against any country.. Lord PALMERSTON wished to correct the Rig ;ht Hon. Baronet as to a matter of fact. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that towards the end of last year the regulr tr militia did all the military duty within the kingdom, and! enabled the Government to send all the regular troops abroa d.. Now, the fact was that in January, 1814, there were of: regular militia in the United Kingdom 82,000, and o f regular troops 55,000. All the regular troops, therefore, were not sent abroad. Sir G. GREY did not intend to assert that ever y soldier had been sent abroad at the period referred to ; b at it was evident that if they had not had the 82,000 regul; tr militia they must have had as many soldiers to supply their: places. Mr. K. SEYMER hoped the Noble Lord would adopt the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman the M; unber for Wilts, and not refer so important a matter as the proposal to a Select Committee. lie differed entirely from the Hon. Member for the West Riding as to the feeling of t, he people of England on the subject. He did not allude to the, opinions of that portion of them who were members of peace societies, or to their platform orators ; but to the great bulk of the people. Mr. OSBORNE felt the inconvenience of discuasing a measure not actually before them. He should mot have presumed to offer a remark at this stage of the measure if he had not felt it necessary to express his dissent from some observations made by an Hon. Member for svh om he had a great respect, and with whom he frequently voted. With the observations made by the Hon. Member for the West Riding at the commencement of his speech he entirely agreed. If danger was apprehended from a foreign. power, the most natural thing to be done was to call home our fleet lying idle in the Tagus. (An Hon. Member—lt has come home.) He (Mr. Osborne) shotild conclude it was still at the Tagus unless assured to the contrary by som a autho rity. But while he agreed with his Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding on the necessity of bringing home that fleet, and protecting the Channel, he must say that he never found his Hon. Friend so provoking or so aggressive as when he talked of peace.—(A laugh.) He regretted it, because in other things the services he had rende red had been great, but on the subject of peace he seemed to have a most unfortunate monomania. —(A laugh.) His Honourable Friend had actually said, that so, great was his confidence in the morale of tho French army, he did not believe they would make an attack on this country. Had his Hon. Friend confidence in troops wbo had so lately made such fusillades on the Boulevards at Paris? Did his lion. Friend suppose that St. Arnaud, or any of their generals who bad taken part in the late scenes, would hesitate to attack this country—they who had not hesitated to break through all law, human, and he might say, divine, and who had placed the lead ers o f th e i r own Legislature under arrest ?—(Hear, hear.) If his Hon. Friend had con fidence in such an army, he (Mr. Osborne) had not. He was neither an alarmist nor an economist, but he looked upon the Government as responsible for the safety of the country. He should not now discuss the question of calling out the militia; but he must say that no foreign power could object to any measure which this country might take if purely of a defensive character. His Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding had stated that one of his objections to the proposal was the paying so email a sum as 10d. a day to the militia so called out. Now, on that ground, he did support the proposal ; for he was in favour of the cheapest defence possible. He thought the Noble Lord had completely answered the objections made with respect to Ireland, and he agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Wiltshire, that the measure should not be referred to a Select Committee, but ought to rest on the responsibility of the Government. Mr. COBDEN, in explanation, said he bad often observed that if an Hon. Member was at a loss for arguments be often found out one upon misrepresentations of what another Mem ber had said. His Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex had charged him with having said that the French army had too mach honour .._ Dlr. OSBORNE—Mo ra I e . Mr. COBDEN—had too much morale to invade this country. Now, what he had said was this :—When Hon. Gentlemen bad spoken of 12,000 or 15,000 French troops landing on our shores without a declaration of war, he had said that that would be buccaneeri ng , a nd that he did not thi n k officers would be fo un d i n the F renc h army to head such an expedition—(Oh, 0 10_ ... ) without a declaration of war, and that if they did, and were taken, they would be hanged at once. Mr. OSBORNE thought his lion. Friend had substan tiated what he had stated. lie knew not whether his Hon. Friend held any .shares in F renc h ra il w ays or not.— (Laugh ter.) Did his Hon. F r i en d feel con fid enc e in a man who had violated the onstitution he had sworn to maintain. —(Hear-) Really his lion. Frie n d' s f acu lty of logical de duction seemed to fail him whenever the question of peace or war WAS talked of.—(Laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL, in a whisper across the table, in answer to the Right lion. the Member for Wilts, was un derstood Select Committee,. for the purpose of its details being con sidered proposed to refer the Bill to a course was for the House to discuss. TRELAWNI said a few words in support of the Mr• . • Bill, conceiving it to be one which even a Radical Reformer sidered; t r o hi sa p y ri t n h e a ip t l h ? e ef onl should support the Bill. He could not help might su p , ol , . the present opportunity to urge upon Govern ms. ALLOGh- said that considering the present state of necessity of attending to the arms supplied to our soldiers. He believed they were inferior to those supplied to the troops of Prussia, France, Belgium, India, or Algiers. He would re f e r Hon. Members to an article in the New for November, 1841, if they wished for proof of Quarterly making France Govern ment nk ti ntgh h eu e 5 e 0 f the inferiority of the muskets of our soldiers to the jezails of turn thei r a tt en ti on t o th e s ubject. He It was absolut e ly necessar y th a t the military the au t believed authorities prohibitionnuse3h.roeualselon why our arms were so i n f er i or was t o a gainst theimpo r t a ti on of arm s o f fo r eign ma nufacture. which i found x i i s n te t d h e Mr. HUME felt bound to correct th e statement o f t h e Hon. G en tleman who had just sat do wn . T he Honourable Gentleman had referre d to an ar ticle written ten year s ago, and s eeme d t o be unaware that inconsequence o f th e Com mitteewsehrilc,lircebabdadsbateen changed within the l as t fi ve y ears , on this subject every musket of the British the and that the muskets used by the Affghan army had all been changed. These things ought to be known, and the public ought to be disaburd. of the opinion that the arms of the soldiers were now inefficient. Sir .H. Vivian had sent a commissioned officer to every country in Europe to report on of the best muskets. Those arms had been brought home and tried, and the Ord nance department had directed the best of them to be selected for the British army- The whole of the flint muskets had been changed for percussion, and a vote of 150 0001. had been granted for the supply subject, and bring home specimens of new . arms , , ~, The lion. Gen tleman ought not, therefore, to frighten old women by stat ing that the muskets of our troops would not fire. With re ilitia was necessary re gard to the present panic and the proposal before them, he thought that some of th e language whi e l a , h a ad nd b r e n e e n held on li e of ffid not see the justice of the subject would. almost warrant a fortification of the whole c o o f a e s n t ir a e n n d ch t m be ,n b t u s il o d n in e g ve o r f y lk h la il r l t . ello lf to a we m r et.rsoris twen ty-One or let the whole of the militia laws be co nsolidated, and the gmt f h li e fi b a u,r c d a e ll n ed onovn twenty-two years of age. Every one between the years of eighteen and t r h eg ro u w la i r n forty-five should the balloted f0r...7 (Haar, h ear .) Hi s age would exempt him, but he only . wished he was again at that age, even with the chance of being drawn for the militia. Captain SCOBELL believed that so long as we kept our supremacy at sea and had ships of a suffi c i ently large size to protect our shores the country would be s a fe. H e was not alarmed at the new element of steam, fo r i t was o f as much use in defence as in attack. With the, powe r which steam would give he thought it almost impossible for a hostile force to approach our shores without. being a ttacked. At the same time he concurred in the suggestion s which had been thrown out as to the prudence of calling home our fleet. if due precautions were taken with respect to our navy, they might rest assured that there would never be a hostile force of any strength landed on our shores. It was no easy mat ter_ this, with a to invade a country like . Population double what it was in 1803. Our ships were equal in size to those of any other nation, and our steamers, though susceptible of improvement, could cope with thos e of any other power. We had, also, the security that the embarkation of any force in the iports of France must be a work of days, and would be known to our consuls, and communicated to the Government here. Mr. ANSTEY reminded the Hon. Gentleman that if our population had doubled since 1803, it was one which had not been used to arms, and was in that respect unwarlike. He hoped that henceforth the pernicious system of passing au nually the Militia Suspension Bill would cease, and that re course would be had to the constitutional force of a militia, a force sufficient to repel all dread of invasion, and yet not sufficient to inspire the country with any of that alarm which would arise from a large addition to our standing army. He (Mr. Anstey) thought there ought to be no dif ference between our laws and those of the Channel Islands in that respect, where all were bound to serve in self-de fence, and they were thus saved from being subjected to the expense of maintaining a standing army. Therefore, with a view of reducing our standing army, he should like to see a similar system adopted, and he believed the establishment of a good militia was cheaper and safer than any other sort of force. Such a measure as the present he considered was wanting, and when they came to consider the de tails in Committee, any objections that might be enter tained towards the proposition of the Noble Lord might be fully stated. The CHAIRMAN then asked whether it was agreed to that they should move the House for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the present militia laws? Mr. HUME considered it would be better to repeal all the old laws, and bring in a till consolidating th em i n o ne A c t of Parliament. He would ask the Noble Lord whether that would not be the better mode of proceeding? Lord JOHN RUSSELL suggested that it would be more advisable, before entering upon any discussion, to wait until they saw the Bill the Right honourable Gentleman had spoken of. The House then resumed. The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to bring in the Bill. SUITORS IN CHANCERY RELIEF BILL. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second reading of the above Bill. Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said that it was a most important measure. It was one for the abolition of fees to certain officers of the court, and at the same time it gave a power to the Lord Chancellor to issue stamps from the stamp-office to snpply the place of those fees. He wished to know from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite what limit was placed to the Lord Chancellor's power in respect bf that dis cretion placed in his hands ? It should be remembered that they were thus parting with a power which was one of a most serious character—namely, that of taxing the subject. They knew that the Court of Chancery levied very large sums annually. He also wished to know why it was that one class of officers were to be paid out of fees or stamps, and another out of the Consolidated Fund ? The present was a time when he thought the whole financial system of the Court of Chancery should be placed on a solid basis. However, it appeared to him that the present Bill would put that system in as complicated a state as it at present stood, so far as raising money was concerned. Up to the present moment the annual expenses of the Court of Chancery were about 200,0001., and therefore, on consider ing a measure like that, he contended that the House was bound to see that the money was raised in the best possible manner. The SOLICITOR-GENRAL said he had endeavoured, in introducing that Bill, to explain, in the best manner he could, the various provisions in it. He thought he had clearly shown that its effect would be materially to simplify and not complicate the present financial system of that court. There were about 90 officers now, who were paid in 330 payments ; and, in lieu of that, it was proposed by the present Bill to have payments made by means of stamps. The Hon. Baronet asked him what limits it was proposed to set to the power of issuing stamps. In reply he had to say that the first object in view was to put an end at once to such a number of small payments, and it was advisable that they should be concentrated at some particular point of each case. That was the reason why it was proposed to give the Lord Chancellor the power of fixing the time of taxation, and the exact time when it would be most expedient could only be ascertained by ex perience and practice. It was said that some of the salaries were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, while others were still to be continued out of the stamp duties. He did not think any other arrangement would be a just one, for the reasons he had stated in introducing that Bill to the House. It was manifestly the duty of the Government to provide for whatever expenses might arise from the necessity of ad judicating upon conflicting rights. The judges and officers connected with the court, therefore, were properly paid out of the Consolidated Fund. But there was another branch of the Court of Chancery which was purely administrative, and which did not come under the same reasons. Many persons might wish, for their private convenience, to place their affairs in the Court of Chancery; and it was only right and fair that they should contribute to the expenses which their own convenience or business caused. As he had stated when he introduced the Bill, he believed that about 107,0001. a year would be saved to the suitors by the proposed measure. Sir J. GRAHAM did not rise for the purpose of opposing the second reading of the Bill, having formerly given his ap probation to a similar proposition. On the contrary, he had heard with much satisfaction the statement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who brought it before the House. That was not the moment to enter into the details of the Bill, which should be done in Committee. He merely rose, there fore, to put a question to the Hon. and Learned Attorney- General on the subject before them. The House would re collect that on the 27th of Jane last they had agreed to an address to her Majesty, praying that two gentlemen not of the legal profession might be added to the Chancery Com mission already appointed. The address further went on to request " that her Majesty would be graciously pleased to cause instructions to be given to the said Commissioners to direct their attention to the business of the masters in ordi nary of the Court of Chancery, with a view to ascertain whether the expenses of their offices might not be ma terially lessened, if not done away with."—(Hear, hear.) In accordance with the prayer of that address, the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and himself (Sir J. Graham) had been added to that Commission. In obe dience to the directions of the Commission, thay had turned their attention to all the general matters connected there with, but particularly to that point which the House had more especially noticed. The Commission consisted, amongst other individuals, of two vice-chancellors, three members of the Chancery bar, and several of the judges, oesides my Honour abfe Friend behind me (Hr. Henley), and myself. It would appear that the composition of the Conimission was some what heterogeneous. Nevertheless, the report to which they had agreed had been signed by all unanimously. They had reported with respect to that particular point to which he had referred, that no additional Masters in Chancery ought to be appointed - ( Hear, hear)—that the masters now in office should occupy their time exclusively in the winding up the business at present before them—(Hear, hear)—and that in future the judges in chamber should do the business formerly performed by the masters. - (Hear.) Now he had been delighted to see that in accordance with some of the para graphs of her Majesty's speech his Hon. Friend had announced his intention of bringing in a Bill at once upon that subject. He was fully aware of all the circumstances which would ne cessarily cause delay in introducing that Bill. He would not, however, have spoken upon the present occasion were it not that he had to state his surprise that the Lord Chan cellor of England had been reported to have expressed in another place his hope that the recommendations with re spect to the masters, in the report of the Commissioners, might not be adopted. He regretted that this should be so, if it were so, for the recommendation in question he consi dered was the key-atone of all the rest.—(Hear, hear.) And he thought that the carrying out of that suggestion would be satisfactory to the people of England more than any other suggestion made.—( Hear.) He rose, therefore chiefly to ask whether the Lord Chancellor had made up his mind en that part of the report, or whether or not it was approved of by him? If there were any questions of salary or duty to be considered, he could say that he would be one of the last men in the world to see gentlemen occupying the positions of the Masters in Chancery treated with anything like harsh ness or injustice.—(Hear.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it appeared to him that the observations of the Lord Chancellor were misun derstood. That Noble and Learned Lord had been placed in the unusual position of being obliged to make answers to questions which were put to him with respect to the de tails of other measures. That was not regular or usual when a future opportunity would be afforded for discus. sing those details. If any impressions had gone abroad, caused by the supposed statement of the Noble and Learned Lord, that there had been any delay on the part of the Government in carrying into effect the Bill founded on the instructions of the Committee, he could assure the House that no possible delay beyond the ordinary delay had occurred. He could say that a most erroneous pression, like that he alluded to, had been produced, if any such existed. All that the Noble and Learned Lord in tended to state was, when asked whether he had definitively made up his mind with respect to the whole of the clauses of a Bill not before Parliament, that it was extremely incon venient for him to give his decided opinion on such a matter, and he therefore declined stating whether or not he had made up his mind on any particular point until the Bill was actually before the House. But the Noble and Learned Lord had stated,when the report was made, that he was most anxious to carry out the Bill founded on the report of the Committee of the House. It was only four days before the assembling of Parliament that the report of the commission had been placed in the Noble Lord's hands, and immediately after he had given directions to have a Bill drawn in accord ance with that report. He (the Solicitor-General) had been allowed to communicate the general opinion of the Commis sion before the final resolution had been come to; .and when he had told him that the office of the masters was under consideration, he had at first said that he would not recom mend their abolition; but as soon as he was aware what the exact report of the Commissioners was, the Noble and Learned Lord had given immediate directions for the prepara tion of a Bill in accordance with the recommendations of the report. It was only when they came to frame a Bill that the time had arrived to test its details ; and it was to that state of things that the Lord Chancellor's remarks applied. Until he saw the Bill in a certain shape he said he could not state how far the Act would have his approbation or not. That the Bill would carry out all the recommendations of the Commissioners, he had no doubt whatsoever ; and he ceuld assure the Right Hon. Baronet that there would be no delay in its preparation. Mr. HENLEY said he had heard with great pleasure the statement of the Solicitor-General, supposing he had underi-f stood the Hon. and Learned Gentleman properly. For he caught the meaning of his words aright, it was this—that the statement of the Lord Chancellor had reference not to that particular point of the report of the Commissioners to which allusion had been made, 'but to some details of a mea sure which might be proposed to carry out the same object. His mind was then so far relieved that Government were determined to carry out the recommendations of the Com missioners. head of the Sir G. GREY said his Noble Friend at Government thought the best thing he do would to to give as early a notice as possible of the intention bring in a Bill founded on the report of the Commission. With respect to that Commission, he would o say thatassist legal the portion of it had derived the great est ance from the other gentlemen who had been associated with them.—( Hear.) and ordered to be The Bill was then read a second time, committed. BILL.. ST. ALBANS DISFRANCISEM EYT Sir GEORGE GREY moved for leav e to bring in a Bill, of which he had given notice for the disfranchisement_ of the Borough of St. Alban Th e Right Hon. Baronet said, it would not be necessary that he should state, at any Tho length,Hseoo the grounds upon which he made this motion. that s t took which ha could perfectly well recollect the proceeding place at the last inquiry, and wer e aware in conse quence of the obstacles thrown in the way of a complete investigation, it passed an Act in the course of last session, the preamble of which stated, that corrupt practices had long prevailed in the borough of St. Albans. Bythat f A or ct oa t l h lin re g e C omm i ss i o ners were appointed, with full powers witnesses and examining documents. Of the complete success, of that Act, and of the Commission appointed under it, they had the most gratifying proof in the book now before him, which contained the evidence they had taken, together with their report upon it, and which had been laid before Parlia ment. The Commissioners stated that they commenced their inquiry with a view to ascertain whether those cor rupt practices were confined to few cases only, or whether they were the result of a systematic course of corruption, which had long prevailed in the borough. They found that it was general, and was the usual accompaniment of an election for the borough Members. He would not trouble the House with reading extensive extracts from their report, 17, 4652 as it had been in the hands of Members for a considerable time, beat would merely allude to some of the more striking facts which they had detailed, and which were abundantly established by the evidence. They stated that the number of electors, consisting of 101. freeholders and scot-and-lot voters, was 483, of whom 380 voted. They gave the sum expended upon the election as 37,000 e, of which they calculated that at least three-fourths was spent in bribery. Politics, they said, had no influence whatever in these elections, great numbers of the voters being ready to dispose of their votes for money placed in their hands. The Commissioners, at page 27 of their report, added some other matters, and amongst these they exonerated the gentry and clergy from having partici pated in the corruption. He passed over, however, that portion of the report which related to individuals ; as it was in evidence before the Commission, and as the Act of Par liament indemnified them, no proceedings would be taken against them on account of their statements. As regarded the practice itself, the Commissioners' report states that it had long prevailed in the borough of St. Albans, and that bribery to a great extent bad been systematically carried on. The conviction which must force itself, there - fore, on the mind of any one who gave attention to this evidence, and report was, that corruption in this borough had prevailed to an extent almost unprecedented, and for a considerable length of time. That being se, the only cure they bad t o propose was the disfranchisement of the borough. This was not a new course. It was the remedy which Parliament had had in contemplation, in the event of the result proving such as it had proved. He, these fore, trusted that there would be no objection to the motion he had to snake, viz., for !cave to bring in a Bill for the disfranchisement of the borough of St. Albans. He should not at that tine take notice of the amendment of his Hon, and Gallant Friend the Member fur Westminster; as he understood that tee Hen. and Gallant Gentleman did not intend pressing it. Sir D. L. EVANS believed there were ample grounds for the motion which he had proposed to bring forward, but it,he was aware th a t a tec h n i ca l o bj ect i on would be made to s i o n inquirehad sat n t t o o inquire t h e referred; corruption i b t t h t e therepractices tha t h hadad been of en a that the borough Committee n towhich his i tomotion taken place in Harwich, anti it was his impression that if a commission were appointed to inquire into the practices that prevailed there, instead of a lesser cssee than at St. Albans, greater corruption would be found in war ich, and more ingrained in the constitue ncy . The Committee over which the Hon- and Learned Member for Sheffield had pre sided had done all that a commissi on appointed bthe y Crown could do, and therefore, instead of proposing es an amendment on that occasion the motion of which he had given notice, he should to-morrow (this day) move that no new writ should be issued for Harwich without ten days' notice, which would afford an opportunity of taking the sense of the House upon the propriety of that borough being disfranchised. Mr. SEYMER said, that the borough of Harwich being unrepresented in that House—(Cries of " No, no")—and he having been the chairman of a Committee that had sat to in quire into the votes given on the election for that borough, he must say that of bribery and corruption there was only a very slight - trace—he could not say more—(A laugh)—there was one case iu which some thought that the election was influenced by corrupt practices, but that was the wily case. He did not say that the Members were immaculate (" Hear," and laughter),—but at all events they were pru dent—(Laughter),—and that prudence ought to serve them in good stead. There was no proof of corruption, and, that being so, he thought that, having no representative in that House, the borough ought to have some considera tion.—( Hear.) Mr. BAGSHAW said that no one doubted that up to 1841 the greatest possible corruption did exist at the elections for the borough of Harwich; but he emphatically denied that anything of the sort had taken place since that time.—(A laugh.) Could anything show it more than the circumstance of Sir J. Hobhouse's having been nominated for the borough, and being returned for it without having ever seen the place ? but, unquestionably, from that time to the present, nothing 1 1 in the shape of corruption had existed in the borough, and he was delighted to find that the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster would move for a commission to inquire into the corrupt practices alleged to prevail there, as the bad odour and bad character of the borough would be at once ob literated, and it would shine out with greater lustre than before.—(Laughter.) Sir J. WILLOUGHBY had himself not long since repre sented Harwich, and he could testify there was, at that time, nothing like the corruption existing in the borough which was imputed to it on the other side of the House. Mr. ROEBUCK wanted to prelude a sham. There could be no doubt that downright corruption existed at Harwich, but the point was, that the House should keep in mind that there was no real difference between the corruption of the poor, and perhaps ignorant voter, who sold his own vote for a 51.-note, and the whole sale corruption of the rich proprie tor, who sold his nomination borough for 2,000/.—(Hear, hear) —except, indeed, that the criminality of the latter to wards the country was the far greater of the two. He trusted that this point would not be lost sight of in the pro gress of the new Reform Bill, and that the House would not permit the sham of disfranchising a corrupt borough, because a couple of hundred men did there in small what the rich nobleman or commoner did in large, and on bis own sole ac count,, in his nomination borough, and let the nomination boroughs escape.—( Hear hear.) Lord D. STUART did not conceive that the Hon. Mem ber for Harwich had at all mended the matter on behalf of the nest of corruption which he represented. He heartily concurred in his Hon. and Learned Friend's hope, that the House would get rid of nomination boroughs as well as of simply corrupt boroughs. Mr. BELL rose, and was loudly called upon to proceed, which he was about to do, when he sat down again, and said he would reserve what he had to say. Mr. WHITESIDE asked whether the attention'of the Right Hon. Baronet had been directed to that part of the St. Albans evidence which stated that Government places had been the reward of persons who had committed corruption on behalf of reform candidates? (Hear.) Sir G. GREY was ignorant of any such rewards having been given by the Government to which he belonged for any such corrupt practices, but the evidence referred to having been given on oath it was not for him, of course, to question it. Lord C. HAMILTON wanted to know whether Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had such a horror of corruption in relation to all who sat on the benches opposite to them, had ever heard of Mr. Coppock—(Hear, hear)—that remarkably active member of the Reform Club—(Hear, hear)—who, whenever a new writ was moved, was sure to repair by spe cial train to the vacant borough, for purposes which the St. Albans evidence fully developed. (Hear, hear.) He should be glad to know whether the virtuously indignant members of the Reform Club had ever, individually or collectively, taken any steps to put a atop to the operations which Mr. Coppock had notoriously been engaged in for the last 15 years.—(Hear, hear.) _ Mr. ROEBUCK begged to inform the Noble Lord that he, for one, had had nothing to do with Mr. Coppock in any of his elections, and that Mr. Coppock would never have dared to come where he was a candidate, pretending to be on his side. He had stood always on his own ground ; and, as to his expenses, which in relation to his elections had never gone a farthing beyond the bona fide legitimate expenses, he had, in each case, been distinctly told by those who had elected him that he was in no degree to consider himself called upon to meet them. Lord C. HAMILTON—Is not the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman a Member of the Reform Club? - - Mr. ROEBUCK—Yes, I am ; but I never go there. (A laugh.) Mr. SPOONER said, that the question which had been put to the Government merited a fuller and more serious answer. The Right llon. Gentleman had probably not missed this evidence of Mr. Coppock : " You have told us, which no doubt is the fact, that you have had great experience with regard to contest in dif ferent boroughs upon the Liberal side; have you, as a matter of fact—we do not ask any details or any names— exerted yourself to obtain places for those who have served you on those occasions, either under Government or else where?—l have exerted myself on every occasion to serve those to whom I considered myself indebted. But in that particular way of obtaining a place ?—Not more in that way than in any other way. Have you in that way ?—I have taken people into my own office ; I have placed them in other people's offices; I have got them situations on rail ways, and I have got them situations anywhere. Have y ou got them situations under Government in any one case ?—I certainly have been the means of recommending people to situations under Government. And they have obtained them ultimately ?—I have had clerks in my own office who have had situations from Government. That is rather avoiding the question ?—Forgive me for saying this; you are putting a question to me upon a subject as to which, You know, there is a positive legal punishment attached to it; you may say that here nothing will attach to it; but, as in connexion with St. Albans 1 negative it entirely, I really think you should not ask me that question so generally as that; but I will answer it if you choose, The certificate that we shall give you will hold you harmless 'l l a ? -"I am sequences of any sort or kind, civil or crimina following aware of that. [The short-handwriter reads t he question Have you, as a matter of fact--I details or any names—exerted yourse lf to those who have served you on those occasi ons either under Government or elsewhere?'] —Certainly Ive exerted my habtdaoin not ask any places for my self to serve parties who have served P them country would believe to be by this evidence the If the Government did not remove th m e e iin session produced fore most among the promoters of corrupt io n. Sir G. GREY did not know what other answer he could give than he had already given. Mr. BELL had desired, on various occasions, when this unfortunate a matter—(Laughter)--had been before the House, to take part in the debate, but he had always been dissuaded by some person or other, so that f or the last d w g h h i t c er. ff he t had n months he had an mcubus hanging over him, e gmaiwandy— (Lau efstoo , and he had c h o a u d r n se o h o e pp h o a r d tu t n ak ity m of pl h e a x db ainn suee i n been supposed either indifferent on the matter or unable to afford agin a w satis f actory s faabcotuo about y to oexplanationffer some ofremarks to the House, it his conduct. Just now, had been suggested to him to hold his tongue—(A laugh)— but , he was determined now to act had admitted the expediency of his and to take his own course.—(R earhssr, upon his own judgment, and a laugh.) He pending, and while a numberabstaining from address ings abs the House on the subject self, engaged in this unluc while a judicial inquiry was ky o f an other sße t io n personswer were capable besidesh i him self, being compromised thethe e n xp e l u a s n e a . tio ß n ef w or h e ic h h e h aru e .d ha a d ny ; but no such tr reason ' s now existed for t r o est m ra a i k n e in there d restrainingg to rhin lo g n a g bo d u es t i borough of St. Albans, :he wished in some degree, at all events, to clear himself from the extreme severity of the accusations which had pressed upon him, and from the im putation that it was with his eyes open he had plunged into this affair, and knowing all the circumstances of the case before hi m . —(A l aug h.) It was all very easy for gen tlemen, looking for it on ground all the details of which had been by close research mapped out, to point out what should have been avoided, and where the difficulties and dangers lay, but he had had no such advantage when be set out in the matter.—(A laugh.) It was perfectly clear that he had committed one grave error, and that was in going down to St. Albans at all.—(Great laughter.) But how was he to have known that the belief on which he had been led to act was a fallacy ?—(Laughter.) Was there not ground for him to suppose that, in going down he should not be opposed, seeing that the three parties in the borough had each, through its representative, requested him to go down? - (Laughter. ) In his ignorance of the borough and of the politics of the people there, when he found all three parties saying they were willing to support him, surely it was not for him to suppose that any disputes about secondary mat - ters—(Laughter)—would set any of these people against him when he had got down amongst them. (Laughter.) Having once embarked on the battle-field, having pledged himself to go to ' the poll, having canvassed the. electors vigorously in order to secure a position as soon as pos sible—(Great laughter), —it was too late for him to retreat; there was no opportunity of retracing his steps, or of extricating himself from the dilemma iu which he found himself. He must confess, he had not been long in the borough before som e ve ry strong suspicions came into his head—(Laughter)—but then he had not conceived it to be his duty to ferret out all the details of the proceedings' — (Great laughter.) He understood it was not usual for can didates to dive into every act of every agent who e might b e emp l o yed—( Laughter ) — but that it was sunP.Y I th business of the candidate to canvass the constituency, in order to in- me; sure his election; and this was the course which (Laughter.) He had since found himself to have b een Badly deceived in various respects. For instance, there were 1 electors who had questioned him and cross-questioned him for half an hour together, and when the electors so quest ion ing him had gone away as his supporters, be had imaEined i that he had done t ;all by his arguments-(Laughter)- whereas it had transpired in evidence that these parties had been corrupted, and had merely interrogated him and argued with him in order to keep him in the dark as to their ps'oceed. ings.-(Great laughter.) There was one particular consi deration which had not made him a free agent, though he might have had strong suspicions that something im proper was going on-(Laughter)-that he was in the field and occupying a place which would otherwise have been oc cupied by another individual belonging to his party, to the Liberal party-(Laughter) -and he was told he was respon sible for the principles on which he went down, that was to say, Liberal principles- (Laughter)- and he could not, therefore, back out, even had he been so disposed.- (Laughter.) He might mention that when he spoke of going down to St. Albans on the principles of " a party," he was not alluding to the Government, for the report that he had gone down as the Government candidate had no foundation id fact, and it was right that he should take that opportunity of contradicting it. He fully exonerated the Government from any participation whatever in the transaction, and in fict, it was the Government that bad been pursuing him from the period of the election to the present time. More over, it was they w h o were b r i ng i ng i n a Bill to di sfranchise whatever to say i h o e h e i x s o e n l o e c r ad h L m a f o r g o h in t o b r a ) v i n i g e a the borough an d f rom th a t an d every ot h er c i rcumstance, had y a d participationnothing her respecting himself in this matter, but with regard to the borough, lie felt in a rather responsible and delicate posi. tioa -first, as the representative of the borough, and, secondly, as having a case to defend for which it was impossible to offer a defence.-(Renewed laughter.) But still, that being the case, he thought that the only course which he ought to pursue was to point out the injustice of carrying to such an extreme a measure with reference to one single borough, when it had b e en proved before the Commission at St. Albans that the sa me system generally prevailed in a great many other bo roughs throughout the kingdom. The object of the Com mission had been to investigate the system of corruption and to take means of putting an end to it, and he must say that the Act of Parliament which had been passed for that purpose was the most sensible and efficacious measure which had ever been passed in reference to bribery and corruption -(Hear)-and he believed that if a similar Act were ap plied to every other borough in the kingdom, it would do more towards putting an end to those practices than any thing that had ever been done.-(Hear, hear.) He must say, however, if that House, instead of taking that general, fair, and consistent course, were to be content with making St. Albans the scapegoat, and grafting' upon it the sins of every Member of that House, upon the suppo sition that by exterminating that one borough the House would be left perfectly pure, that such a course would be not only a delusion, but an injustice.-(Hear, hear.) A few days ago he had gone over the House of Correction (Loud laughter) - and he saw there 150 prisoners. He knew at the same time that there were about 40,000 outside as bad as those who were in, but rather more cunning. Now, if Lliemt 40,000 . trer. to linid a mee • trig, and to pass a resolution that, for the sake of making themselves stand well with the public, they should hang those 150 who happened to be in the prison, then, he conceived, that those 40,00() would be taking a course similar to that which the House was taking in disfranchising St. Albans, and leaving all the other boroughs of the kingdom as they were. -(Laughter and cheers.) He considered that under these circumstances, as representative of the borough, and being sure that unles s he advocated its cause, other people would not, it was quite proper that he should come forward and oppose the proposed Bill to the best ofa his ability, and he put it to the con sciences of other Honourable Members who knew what elections were better than he, whether it were right to single out St. Albans in this manner? He was told that the extravagance which he had indulged in was such as ought to have left no doubt upon his mind of the nature of the transactions that were going on. He begged to say that at the time of the election he was not aware of the amount that was being expended, and even if he had, comparing it with the amounts which he constantly heard spoken of, there was nothing extraordinary in it. He had heard it said, " Here is an Hon. Member who has paid 60,0001. for his election," and " Here is another who paid 50,000/.," and another he had himself heard state that his election had cost him 40,0001., while they all knew that elections costing from 5,0001. to 10,0001. were as plentiful as blackberries. Now, he had had the excitement of an election, the luxury of a petition, and the further indulgence of a commission, and the sum total of his expenses had not exceeded 4,3001.-(Cheers and laughter.) Under these circumstances, he thought it was unfair to charge him with any extraordinary extrava gance; and Hon. Members who knew what elections were ought to know better than to be so exceedingly severe on I St. Albans.-(Laughter.) It was true that the system did appear to be exceedingly corrupt when every detail WB3 made clear, but how would it be, if the same principles were applied to cases where 60,0001. had been expended ?-(Hear, hear.) He was not desirous of making any personal remarks, but he thought it only fair, having been singled out in this way, in consequence of the inexperience of himself and the imprudence of those who had conducted his election (which constituted the chief distinction between himself and others), that he should represent the circumstances of the case, and do all he could to place it in a fair position. It certainly appeared remarkably corrupt for a person to pay a sum of money for his election, but ,they found others who, instead of paying a sum down, spread it over seven years, and at the end of that time walked over the course and entered the House perfect patterns of purity. What difference, he asked, was there in principle between these two cases?-(Hear, hear.) If an agent at an election treated an elector with a mutton chop and a glass of ale, he was liable to a penalty, and the Member might be un seated; but if a Member of Parliament, during the period of the Exhibition, for example, issued cards to all the electors, inviting them to his mansion in town to enjoy his hospitality, even though it were in anticipation of an election, that was perfect purity and perfect hospitality.- (Hear, hear ) He might mention many other cases where the principles were precisely the same, although they differed in appearance. - (Hear, hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP had been charged with corruption because he had exercised Christian charity towards a Christian people. He had been charged with giving away coals. lie had done so, and he would do it again.-(Hear, hear.) But what was the situation of the Government? Ile talked of Greenwich. Had the Government had nothing to do with that election?-(Hear, bear.) Would the Noble Lord say that he had not sanctioned many acts which amounted to bribery, and that he had not unduly Influenced boroughs and counties-aye, and a city, too? The tact was, that the Government found fault with humble individuals for acts of charity, and if they would not vote for the Noble Lord's party they soon got a broad hint that they were not wanted.-(A laugh. ) Mr. ANSTEY said there were two Members of that House who were connected with that borough, the fate of which was to be decided by the Bill. One of them, the junior Member, had been heard at considerable length, and he thought it only just that the senior Member, far more experienced in the affairs of the borough, should also favour the House with a statement. He believed there were other boroughs in a predicament similar to that of St. Albans, and thought that all might be provided for by a general Bill. Mr. REPTON, in answer to a very general call from both sides of the House, said that the House having, daring the last session, appointed a commission to inquire into the cir cumstances connected with the last election for St. Albans, and that commission having made its report, he felt that no course was open to him but to bow to that report.-(Hear.) that the He thought the r e p or t per f ec tly just, and t Commis sioners had come t o a f a i r and proper can l Hear ) As regarded his own share in the matter, he had only to say r the second time to re that in 1847 he became a candidate fo d present St. Albans in Parliament, an s determined in to resist bribery and corruption by every means his agent. sow l e l r e . e declined it even when strongly on the day of polling that w or l i t to the poll, and felt convinced 8 m hi behalf. The Commissioners put - bery was being used and he answered frankly that he be that question to hoto n ractised.-(Hear h ) T ear. en days lieved bribery had bee P bills were brought to him, and his legal notbelieving that he was adviser told him honour h d• h y then , lse arged them immedi bound to pa t h declared publ . lc y and ivately that he I would again en me a candidate for St. Albans not bew upon by the house for .-(Hear, hear.) He had been called a statement; he m ade it, and he h a d now had nothing further to say, but that on gentleman t h e word of a he had st a t e d t h e truth. Mr. G. THOMPSON said that it was hardly fair to Euro Mr. Coppock so severely, while they left out many others who had been engaged in precisely similar practices. As a member of the Reform Club, and knowing a great number of its members, he (Mr. Thompson) could say that a very large proportion of those members were totally uncon nected with Mr. Coppock, and knew nothing of his proceed ings.-(Hear, hear.) To the majority of the members of the club, the revelations of the St. Albans Commission were en tirely new, but admitting that the fact had not been so, he believed there were other associations not very far off that countenanced not very dissimilar practices. In short he bad been told that it was not a very unusual thing for the gen tleman who had been namedito confer with a gentleman holding a similar position to himself in the association to which he had alluded.-(Hear, hear.) It appeared that such a system had prevailed ever since the passing of the last Reform Bill, and had been found absolutely necessary. What he was anxious to see was suck a measure originated as should for the future avoid all necessity for such instru mentality.-(Hear, hear.) Leave was then given to introduce the Bill. MR. COPPOCK. On the question that the Bill be brought in by Sir G. GREY and the ATTORNEY.GRNERAL, --. Mr. ROEBUCK said he wished to say a few words upon this, for the Government were effected by it. As:far as they had evidence upon the subject, this Mr. Coppock was in the immediate confidence of the Government.—(Loud c heers from the Opposition.) He was informed that the Noble Lord opposite (Lord C. Hamilton), who had put a question to him, had not intended to imply that he (Mr. Roebuck) was at all implicated with Mr. Coppock, or that Mr. CAT pock had dared to interfere with him, but merely that he was connected with a club of which Mr. Coppock also was a member; and upon that he asked,—" Have you, who ar a e . a purist, done anything, after the declaration that was m ad form Club ?" His answer to that question by Mr. Coppock, to get rid of him as a member of wim the th li a e- t the Reform in social life he was a member of twice a- ear ; Club. He went there once or perhaps connected with it, beyond taking he asked Hon. G en .. but, of the internal working of that club, or of any thi ng but, table, he knew nothing; and tlemen present whether the appealm aich had been mad which Edwards nothi n g said that f there t h at " 11 e l w r. Coppock said d vivat i p br l oe o m y t m he e r nt o t p o pos be i g:v en to him was a fair one? He to put Mr. Cop Peek to went on there ; but he was now going . the test, and the Government 1 11 s°_ r. he was employed by somebodY• was an insinuation of a G o vernmen t to his son. He wanted Mr. C"PP ° , the ° (Pointing to satisfaction of examining . the bar of the House, 1 ion). should like to have tha t satisfaction if —(Hear, hear.) lie s 't for he did not belie the House would or J. - an i t u newed cheers fr tvernloudmecankteeetrmso ve in the purity He bad not had the s a a m tisfa of the Govern at e _ . om the Opposition.) they were working a sham, He believed that and that they St. Albans, a sort of scaegoat to be sent into were m aki ng o take off the sins of t h e Coppock. he wilderness t . Administration. He twanted to know if the House would support him in bring ing Mr. Coppock to that bar, in order that they might have a different sort of revelation from that which had been eli cited by the Commissioners, capital as that was—(Hear)--.. but still they might reap some advantage from it. He wished the House to s u pp or t him in that amendment, and he felt sure the Government would not oppose it—(lronical cheers) —because, if they did, it might be insinuated that theyknew themselves to be guilty — (Cheers)—and he was sure that they would not allow such an insinuation to pass.—( Hear ) He wished to bring Mr. Coppock to the bar, in order to learn from him what his communications with the Go vernment were, and who it was that told him that he had the power to dispense the favours of Government. Mr. Coppock would no doubt be able to enlighten them upon those points. Hon. Members were at present in the dark on the subject. Would they allow the House to go into Com mittee u pon this Bill in the dark ?—(Hear, hear.) Would FEBII UAIIY .~ .~ ~'