The Sun. — London, England, 1848-05-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, May 23. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool sack at Five o'clock. The Earl of HARDWICKE presented several peti tions against the Jewish Disabilities Removal Bill. The Bishop of WINCHESTER presented several petitions with a similar prayer. Lotd DUNFERMLINE presented several petitions in favour of the Bill. Lord BEAUMONT presented several petitions from various lodges of Odd Fellows, in favour of the Bill for the legalization of their society. THE VERNON GALLERY. Lord MONTEAGLE, after passing a high eulogium on Mr. Vernon for the magnificent present of pictures which he had made to the public, moved for a return of all donations that had been made by private indivi duals to the National Gallery. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE bore his testimony to the generous liberality of Mr. Vernon, Sir George Beaumont, Mr. Holwell Carr and the other benefactors to the National Gallery. Lord COLBORNE reminded their Lordships that more than one moiety of the pictures in the National Gallery had been the gift of private individuals. He would suggest the propriety of enlarging the Gallery, for it was not fair after they had accepted this muni ficent gift from Mr. Vernon, that they should put him to the inconvenience of opening his private house to the public twice a week to exhibit these pictures to the public —The motion was then agreed to. PETITIONS. The Mai-gals of LONDONDERRY presented seve nal petitions from the North of Ireland in favour of the Free Church Sites (Scotland) Bill. SPAIN. The Nonas MARQUIS asked if the letter which had recently appeared in the papers, purporting to be a letter trom the Duke of Sotomayor to Sir H. Bulwer, was genuine, and whether any farther correspondence had taken place on the subject. He should, notwith standing the opinion of the Noble Duke, persevere in his motion for a return of the names of the Spanish pen- Ari-a• GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (EXTENSION OF THE BERKS AND HANTS, &c.) BILL. On the question that the report upon this Bill be read, a lengthened discussion arose as to a discrepancy in the Bill, in not defining the purposes to which the capital raised under it was to be devoted, and ultimately Mr. LABOUCHERE moved that it be re-committed, in order to introduce into it a clause, stating the general purposes for which the money is to be raised and ex pended, which was agreed to. LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY (LONDON -BRIDGE AND NEW CROSS STATIONS, &c.) BILL. Mr. GRENFELL moved the reception of the report. Capt. PECHELL opposed the reception of the report of the Committee, on the ground that the line did not afford the accommodation it should to the poorer classes, as the company had stopped day-tickets, increased the fares, stopped many of the trains, closed several of the stations, and moved their goods station from London bridge to New Cross; and within the last few days a meeting had been held at Brighton to oppose this Bill, so dissatisfied were the inhabitants with the conduct of the railway. He thought when parties consented to a line, perhaps because a particular station should be erected, that Parliament ought not to allow railway companies to close it. Mr. GRENFELL said the public generally formed unreasonable expectations with respect to the benefits they ought to receive. With respect to the Parlia mentary trains, the directors would be happy to give full explanation in relation to their conduct in respect of them to the tribunal appointed by the Legislature. Sir DE LACY EVANS said he sho uld oppose the Bill at a future stage. The report was then received. REPORTS. The following reports were then received and agreed to:— sioners. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE could not answer the question, as the Noble Marquis had not given any notice of his intention to ask it. The NOBLE MARQUIS then presented several petitions from the Protestant clergymen of Ireland, in favour of the national system of education; also upwards of 100 petitions in favour of the Jewish Disabilities Removal Bill. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS ADJOURN MENT BILL. On the motion of Lord STANLEY, the House went in:o Committee on this Bill. The Noble Lord explained some verbal and other amendments which he proposed to introduce into it, and said he should more that the Bill be reprinted with such amendments, and subse quently recommitted. Lord CAMPBELL recommended that a Committee of this and the other House should be appointed to con sider the subject. He thought , however, that it had better stand over altogether until next session. The only important change which it proposed to effect would render the Bill quite nugatory. The Noble Lord pro posed that Bills which stood over from the Commons, and were taken up in the following session by their Lordships before receiving the royal assent, should go back again to the Commons, who were to pass a resolu tion in their favour. That, however, they had the power of doing at present by an exi stin g standino' order. Another difficulty would be that the courts in Westmin ster Hall would have to see whether, with . reference to the Bills so passed, the regular forms had been complied with. And it would be necessary to insert another clause, that such Bills should be considered binding in point of law. He was convinced that it would not be considered creditable to the wisdom of their Lordships' House to send down the Bill in its present form to the other House of Parliament. Lord MONTEAGLE hoped his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) would persevere with the Bill. Lord CAMPBELL explained. Lord STANLEY said that the amendment having been in conformity with recommendations which had been made from both sides of the House in former stages of the , Bill, he thought it would b e unnecessa ry to re commit the Bill. Ile proposed, therefore, that the Noose should at once go through the Bill. After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE on the same side, Lord REDESDALE, while disagreeing with the Bill as it stood, would not divide the House upon it, as by so doing he would disarrange the entire question. After a few words from the Earl of DEVON, The Bill was passed through the Committee, and ordered to be reported, with amendments. Their Lordships then adjourned. L.,(LCI: 7 OF COMMONS, May 23. The Sp 0. lok the Chair at Four o'clock. Tt, lIRD READINGS. The followi..l dills were read a third time and passed : Bristol Docks Transfer Bill. Lanark and Hamilton Court House and County litates Bill. Midland Railway (Alteration of the Lino and Branches near Wellingborough and approach to the Welling borough Station) Bill. CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAILWAY BILL . On the motaen that the report of this Bill be con sidered, Mr. GROGAN rose to oppose it on the ground that it was contrary to the standing orders of the House, and besides, would give a railway company the monopoly of the steam-boat traffic, which could not fail to be at tended with great disadvantages to the public. He therefore begged leave to move that the report be read this day six months. Mr. HUME seconded the motion, and said he con sidered if the Bill were passed that it would establish a system which would be totally ruinous to all fair com petition. Sir ROBERT PEEL said he was Chairman of the Committee upon the group of lines of which the Chester and Holyhead formed one, and that the Committee were of opinion that it would be to the public advantage and convenience that this company should have the power of applying a portion of its °natal to the purchase of steam-vessels to complete the line of communication between Holyhead and Dublin. The Government had always looked upon the railway as a great national undertaking, the terminus of which was not, in fact, Holyhead, but Dublin, and the public advantages offered to them so great that they bad departed from the ordinary rules and granted a sum of money to assist in carrying it out. For himself he must say that great advantages resulted from placing in the hands of railway companies the power to carry their passengers by steam-packets. In the first place it prevented any chance of collision between parties; and, in the next, the officers of the company might be employed in connexion with the vessels, to the convenience of persons proceeding by the railway. Caledonian Canal Bill. Furness Railway BilL London, Brighton, and South C oast Railway (London bridge and New Cross Stations, &c.) Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincol ns h i re Railway (Station Approach in Manchester) Bill. i Manchester, She ffi eld, and ire Railway (Station at Sheffield and Branch to the Sheffield Canal) Bill. and Lincolnshire Railway Manchester, Sheffiel d, (Junction with the Midland Railway, via Barnsley, and Branches therefrom) Bill. Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway (Crossing of Sheffield -street in Manchester, &c.) Bill. Manchester South Junction and Altrincham Railway Bill. Oxford Paving Bill. Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. I—lncrease of Capital) Bill. Payne's Patents (Improvements in preserving Vege table Matters) Bill. Vale of Neath Railway (Power to the South Wales Railway Company to subscribe, and Amendment of Acts) Bill. COLONIAL EXPENDITURE. Sir W. MOLES WORTH gave notice of his intention, on Tuesday, the 20th of June, to call the attention of the House to the colonial expenditure and government. SPAIN—DEPARTURE OF SIR H. BULWER. Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to a question from Mr. Bankes, stated that her Majesty's Government had that morning received dispatches from Sir H. Bulwer, from Madrid, to the 17th instant, in which it was stated that Sir H. Bulwer was about to leave Madrid, that he had received his passports from the Spanish Government fur that purpose, and that it was his (Lord Palmerston's) intention to lay the correspondence on the subject on the table of the House on Thursday next. lONIAN ISLANDS. Mr. HUME said he understood the liberty of the press had been suppressed in those islands. He wished to know what the law now was with regard to the press, and whether any alteration had been made as to the mode of election? Mr. HAWES said there was a law still in force with regard to the exclu.slUn of books, which gave the Go vernment considerable power; but, practically, it had no operation; for the free importation of books had been sanctioned iu 1844. The restrictions on the press were part and parcel of the original constitution under which we had taken possession of the islands; but the liberty of the press was no.v fully secured, and the subject of elections and other points were now under the consi deration or the'Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial department. PUBLIC WORKS OF ART.—MR. VERNON'S PICTURES. Mr. V. SMITH begged to ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government when it was intended to sum mon a meeting of the Committee, appointed on the 1 Ith of February last, to consider the best mode of providing additional room for works of art, given to the public, or purchased by means of Parliamentary grants. Ile (Mr. Smith) had been appointed a member ot that Committee, but they had never been summoned to meet. His reason for putting the question was this :—A very munificent gift had been presented to the nation by Mr. Vernon. — (Hear, hear)—eonsisting of a valuable collection of pic tures ; and he understood that the trustees of the Na tional Gallery had been obliged to ask Mr. Vernon's leave to exhibit hia own gift in his own house.—(Hear, hear.) He, therefore, wished to know whether' it was still the intention of the Noble Lord to call together the Committee to which he had alluded, or to take any other steps for providing the additional accommodation required. Sir R. INGLIS said he had a notice on the paper for that day, to move for copies of nay communications which had passed between the Government and Robert Vernon, Esq., relative to that gentleman's offer of a portion of his collection of pictures ; and probably the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would now make some statement which might render that motion un necessary. Lord J. RUSSELL said it certainly was his intention to call together the Committee at at an early period. When the fact was announced to the Government, of Mr. Vernon having made this munificent and handsome gift to the public, he (Lord J. Russell) had requested his Noble Friend the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests (Lord Morpeth), to try and find a place suit able for the accommodation of so valuable a collection; some correspondence had passed, and his Noble Friend would state the result. Viscount MORPETH said he must do full justice to Mr. Vernon's spirit of accommodation, as well as to his munificence. When a difficulty was found about pro viding a room which should be suitable in every way, as to light and other requirements, the offer of Mr. Vernon's own house for the accommodation of the public had proceeded from that gentleman himself. Sir 8,. PEEL said that, as one of the trustees of the National Gallery, he was very glad to bear his testi mony, in the strongest manner, not only to the muni ficence with which Mr. Vernon had acted, but to the extreme delicacy of his conduct.—(Hear, hear.) Ap prehending that several of his pictures might not be thought worthy of a place in the National Gallery, he had allowed the trustees to make their choice from the whole collection, at the same time submitting his own opinions as to those which he considered most desirable to appropriate to the public.—(Cheers.) There being a difficulty as to finding a suitable building—for not every building, however large, had such a light as was adapted for the exhibition of paintings, Mr. Vernon had said, with the greatest liberality, " You shall have my house, as well as my pictures; the house as it stands shall be placed at your service."—(Cheers.) It was right that this great munificence and handsome conduct on the part of Mr. Vernon should be publicly knowu. RELATIONS WITH SPAIN. Mr. ANSTEY wished to know whether the departure of Mr. Bulwer from Madrid was to be explained in the manner it had been explained by some of the foreign journals—that he had been removed to a higher post, the ambassadorship to Constantinople ; or whether it was to be taken as indicative ot an entire rupture of friendly relations with that Court. Viscount PALMERSTON—The departure of Mr. Bulwer from Madrid does not arise from his being ap pointed to any other post.—(Sensation.) Viscount PALMERSTON again rose, and said—of course it does not proceed fkom any rupture of our rela tions with Spain.—(Hear, hear.) ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. Lord G. BENTINCK said he presumed that the mo tion which he had to submit would meet with a ready concurrence from the House—that the House at its ris ing should adjourn to Thursday.—(Cheers.) Mr. HUME hoped the House would not agree to this motion.—(L aug h ter ) A Bill of great importance to w Scotland, the Entail Bill—(Much laughter)—was fixed for a edn eslaY; and it would be highly improper to lose day. letlf tahneymll do on s . o Gentlemen he hp oweidshthedeytowoguoldtoen enjoy Derby, themselves.—.(Laughter.) J. u ukra ' L said, d h i a s d eu h ss e fotuhned Entailthat the B Bill next Scotch Members were anxious to day, ho should have said the House ght to meet for the purpose; but he found th at several of the Scotch Meal' b et a were of opinioa th at there would be a very thin House, that the clerks at the table would probably have a House, to sit same time without makinga t nd that there was chance of this important subjectno due discussion. — (Hear , hear.) In this case re a c in vi t n h g er a e being a disposition to m a k e the day a national fete, he saw no objection to the motion proposed. Mr. S. CRAWFORD said the House ought not deli berately to do anything calculated to lower itself in the estimation of the country. He should therefore oppo se this motion. Colonel SIBTLIORP was understood to complain of Bills being frequently smuggled through on a Wed nesday. Mr. F. MAULE said he had been unfortunate enough to fix the Scotch Entail Bill for Wednesday. .It was a very important mea sure, and o de r s r e a d b l o e v e i r t should pass this session. If th it e was ii ghouhealdyju d t the Government would give Scotland ha a ay a the next day, he hoped the Noble Lord at l the head of period, for the purpose of considering this n earlymeaure.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT thought it desirable they should have a holiday sometimes, and had no objection to to morrow; but ho thought it beneath the dignity of the House to make the excuse for that holiday the holding of a race within a few miles of London.—(Hear, hear.) If they had a holiday fur the Derby, why not for the Oaks? — (Great laughter, and cries of " Move.") There were other important races in which some Honourable Mem bers might be more interested than in tho business of this House. But with the pathetic appeals that had been made by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government as to the state of the public business, he thought it would be very unbecoming in the House to adjourn over to-morrow, simply on account of a great race coming oft'. He had no doubt there would be a sufficient number of Members present to make a House. After a few words from Mr. OSWALD, the House divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment Against LEICESTER ELECTION. The Committee appointed to try the merits of this election appeared at the bar and were sworn. Mr. BROWN opposed granting the proposed powers to the railway company. Mr. LABOUCLIEII,E said the question before the House was one of unusual interest, both with regard to the way in which the private business of the House should be transacted, and in connexion with the interests of railway companies and the public, and having given his special attention to the matter, ho wished to say a few words to the [louse with respect to the principle laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel). whether railway companies should have the power of becoming steam-boat proprietors. Ho wished to state that it had received the serious attention of the Committee to whom such matters were usually referred ; and subse quently, at the request of that body, by the Board of Trade, whose opinions with respect to the Bill were so fully stated in Mr. Letevre's letter that it was unneces sary for him to trouble the House with them. It must be a matter of sincere gratification to all interested in the matter that the question had been ight s ince Hon.considered by a Committee of which the Right Baronet was a Member. Ho (Mr. Labouchere) con fessed that he had approached the consideration of the Bill with a strong impression on his mind against allow iag railway companies to become steam-boat proprietors —(Hear, hear)—and, although his mind wasas c on cerned, he in that respect so fsr as this company w be nevertheless considered t hat no such pow er under spec i al ald should be could be to railway comp anies, e xcept circumstances. This was t he strongest case th at be adduced in support of the principle contended for in the H; and unless the ous e was pre. pared to refuse such powers t o railways they must accede to the recep tion of in all cases, the report. The whole purpose of the Chester and Holyhead Company was the establishment of good communication between Holyhead and Dublin; and therefore it had greater interest than any other body i n keep inge Bill that communication in good condition. Bat t h e contained clauses restricting the fares to a certain amount, and continuing the powers for a limited time only, and the whole matter could, under the Bill, be opened after a limited number of years, so that Par liament might revise the fares and discuss the whole question at issue. He thought, therefore, that the com pany should be empowered to invest money in steam boats to ply between Holyhead and Dublin. Mr. BERNAL would not enter into the principles involved, but he wished to point out that no special report had emanated from that Committee of which the Right Hon. Baronet was a member, to the effect that th is cam) was an exception to the ordinary rule, and that it should be acceded to. It was a matter for extreme regret, and one for which the House should take shame to itself, that no really definite rule had been laid down, ses sion after session, for its guidance in these matters; so that in this case the Committee did not know whether to look to the report of the Beard of Trade published in March, or decide upon the matter on their own responsibility. He thought it to be his duty, whenever he could, to point out the evil to the House of the system at present in existence, and the clause that he had proposed was a clause simply to enable Parliament to revise the decision of its Committee. Sir B. PEEL said that the grounds upon which the Committee had acted were, that as there was not a rail. way, they were no t called u p on to i nsert the clause. No one could wish, or was more anxious than he was, that the standing orders of the House should be strictly com plied with. It must, however, be remembered tlxtt the House had limited its report. H After a few words f rom Sir W EA.TITCOTE, Strangers were order ed to withdraw, and the H ouse divided, when there appeared — For the report I6G Against it ....................... .. 46 Maj ority —l2o The report was then agreed to. , _ CHELTENHAM ELEcnoN. The Members of she Cheltenham Election Committee vivre summoned to the table and sworn. Majority —l3 ; t g a yrs ig,'s impulse ny, h her all k i unchecked n d kindly i nflne influence, The announcement of the numbers was received with , The chair and '' ae table parted with from starvation on , loud cheers. We understand that after the gallery was 1 the one hand, .5i ei her Majesty-, - cleared, Sir James Graham and Sir R. H. Inglis spoke , a J r . (t),y" and in opposition te the motion, and Sir Robert Peel and and without t hes advice of her responsible Ministers on the Uri the Judge-Advocate in favour. RETURNS OF TIMBER AND SILK, gladness into twee rts where gl oom an d sorrow had b e f ore prevailed.—(l.feu , hear.) But in other Lord GEORGE BE NTINCK rose to move for re- , tress was not NalleViated. n Te e towns dis. found, from the turns, showing the quantities and prices, duty paid, of statement 'of Captain Willis, that 14,000 operatives Canadian timber sold b y p ublic sale in London, on Fri- were either out of ,work, or w or ki ng only short time, day, the 10th of Mareh, distinguishing red from yellow in Manchester alone,. There were 6,000 operatives in timber, and g i v ing an abstract, showing the average that town out of employment at the present moment. price of each description of timber, together w ith the They were told that Bradford was in a prosperous con hiehest and lowest price in each case. Showing any dition, and certain returns were produced, but it ap reductions o f t ittles on thrown silks and on Indian silks, peared that ther e w ere 15 , 0 00 persons rece i v i ng relief which may have been made in 1842, together with a from the parish in that town.—(Hear.) But it was not return, s howing the importations of such silks in the only cottons and w pollens, and boots and shoe fronts of years 1342, 1845, and 18 46 , respectively, on which such which he spoke on a former occasion as being imported, reductions may have been made : likewise showing but he might be permitted to speak also of the lace the quantities, in pounds. of raw and waste trade. What was the state of Nottingham ? That silk imported, exported, and consumed at home might be learned from a letter of the Rev. Mr. Wright, in the years 1844 and 1845, as compared with of that town. But, to come to the lace trade ; a fourth the two years 1846 and 1847, giving the average an- of the operatives were bordering on starvation. 'The nual qaantity consumed at home in each period. Simi- people would not go into the union workhouses, because lar returns in regard to thrown silk ; and,: showing the they would disfranchise theinselvee. They would rather quantities and value of all articles of cotton, woollen, entrvee The letters of clergymen, describing the distress and silk, of needlework, and watches of foreign manu- and destitution , contained very startling statements. facture, boots and shoes, 'and boot-fronts, and all The Reverend Mr. Davis, of Nottingham, the Reverend other articles not enumerated in the trade and naviga- Dr. Williams, the Reverend Mr. Howard, the Reverend tion returns, imported into the port of London, in the Mr. Buckler, and other clergymen, had described, four months ending the sth day of May, 1848, as corn- in letters, the state of the operatives in their pared with the corresponding three months of 1845, respective towns. These fearful changes were simulta -1846, and 1847. Continuation of so much of return neous with the change of their commercial system. In No. 175, ordered the 6th day of February, 1846, to the the suburbs of' Nottingham houses were deserted, the Ist week in January, 1848, as relates to the prices and poor inhabitants having been driven into the union. The importation of foreign and colonial timber, and the na. Rev. Mr. Milton wrote, that the wonder was that the tionality of the ships in which the same was imported, people had not become desperate. That was the effect and the crews by which they were manned. Also, a of allowing the foreign lace to come into competition with continuation of return No. 109 down to the sth day of the home manufacture. That was the result of those re- April, 1843, with an additional account, showing any turns for which he moved. In Mr. Porter's trade and increase or decrease in the numbers and cost of the cus• navigation returns there were items suppressed to the turns department, and per centage cost of collection con- amount of 1,186,0001., upon the ground that the value sequent upon reducti o n of customs duties in 1846. He could not be ascertained. He understood that these re trusted that th e Hou se would bear with him while he turns were to serve as a guide to the House, but the moved for those returns. There was no man, he be- effect was, that you came away, after inspecting them, Tiered, who did not think that the House ought not to more ignorant than you were b e f ore . Th ey were d octored, be deceived by any statistical statements on the an d medicated, and made up to suit a particular purpose. subject of those returns. lie had formerly made If the goods which had been imported in consequence statements on those questions, and his state- of free trade had not been so im p or t e d, emp l oyment ments had been questioned, and he now made would have been afforded for 100,000 persons. The a motion for returns which would clear up the state- number of bankrupts had greatly increased lately, and ments he had then been doubted in as regarded the Yet the Ri g ht lion. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) would effects of recent legislation in the commodities of timber have you believe that bankruptcies had gone quite out and silk ; and at this time, when the question was before of fashion. In Scotland, within the last nineteen weeks the country what mode of taxation was most likely to there had been 292 Scotch sequestrations. In Paisley, out of 51 mills 18 had stopped altogether , and seven accord with its people—when a great experiment was being tried, it became of the utmost w ere working short time. It was not merchants, and importance that they should be correctly informed wit h re g ard to the planters, and brokers alone that were feeling the effect of this system, but its effect was being felt by persons measures of alteration which had been carried , a nd what in the lowest scale. From a comparison of the adver the effects of those alterations were. He was one of those tisements from servants this year, in the Times news who considered that direct taxation was not the mode by which the revenues of this cou ntr y were to be in- Paper for situations, as compared with last year, the number would be found greatly on the increase. That creased. He was one of those who believed that the • ; lo adopted by the United States of America of principle was the case . with all classes of domestic servants, while imposing a duty on all imported goods, was by far the the advertisements from masters for servants this year, best mode that could be resorted to—a mode preferable as compared with 1846, had fallen one-half. Ho did not moan to ascribe it all to free trade, but he had to direct taxation or taxation on Excise. He had, on a f o rmer occasion, showed that a large proport ion of the shown considerable grounds for ascribing much of the t a xes which had distress to the change in our commercial system, and been remitted went into the pockets of the for ei g ner ; and he had shown when these returns, which he now moved for, were also that the removal of the prohibitive duties did granted him, they no doubt would show more of the not compensate the British manufacturer or the details connected with the ruin of the trade of this people of this country. • On the occasion to which country than the Board of Trade was now willing to he referred, he had shown that, while the price of disclose.--(Hear.) B a ltic timber had, on the one hand, risen 1 ls. per load The motion having been seconded and put from th e that of Canadian timber had, on the other, become so chair, reduced, that the greatest distress had resulted to the Mr. GLADSTONE said he fully admitted with the Canadian interests in this respect. On that occasion it Noble Lord that great distress existed in this country ; was said by a Right Hon. Gentleman (understood to be he granted fully that he had shown to the House —lst, a Mr. Gladstone), that he (Lord George Bentinck) was great degree of depression in the commerce of the utterly misinformed on the subject ; and that so far from country, but he did not believe the Noble Lord had the alteration of the law having the effect of cruelly raised the most insignificant prescription ; that it was in grinding down their colonial produce, and producing any degree to be inferred the legislation of former years short prices, Canadian timber had risen 7s. per load. had produced it. The Noble Lord not only failed to Those statements had been made by the President and produce proofs, but lie had not even made art attempt to Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and afterwards prove such is proposition. He referred to the lace trade repeated by the Secretary of State. When these state • of Nottingham, and quoted the opinion of the Rev. Mr. inents were made, it was not surprising that the House Brooke, in a description given by him of the distress in should be carried away by the opinion that he was that neighbourhood, on an opinion given by the Rev. totally misinformed. But it was not only on public Gentleman, that that distress was owing to the changes grounds that lie felt it due that he should move for the which tools place in the leer. Now he ( Mr.G ladstone)would returns in question. He felt it due to the House that the not say that the Rev. Gentleman had not something else public should be correctly informed on this question. lie to do besides stud y in g p olitical economy, but wether that proposed to ask her Majesty's Government that returns were so or not, he had no hesitation in stating, that his be furnished, and he thought that a compliance with his opinion was entirely without foundation. Not another motion would set the matter at rest. He believed that he word did the Noble Lord's speech contain to show any was justified in the statements he had made. It was connexion between distress among the lace-makers said, in contradiction to him, that the price of Canadian at Nottingham and the principles of free trade. red timber on which the duties had been remitted 10s., lie (Mr. Gladstone) should not follow the Noble Lord had only fallen from 955. to 92e. On the very day on through the details of the statement he made to the which that statement was made, a great sale took place House, except two, which impugned the accacf at the Hall of Commerce, Threadneedle - street , at which what he had said when those measures were under 31,900 feet of white, and 12,000 feet of red timber was consideration. If the Noble Lord be correct in ascribng sold; and by a return which he held in his hand, and the distress of the country to the legislation then sane which he would take the liberty to place in the hands of the tioned by the House, undoubtedly he was rendering a Member for Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), the price of red thee- great public service in seeking to induce them to retrace bar had reached 655. sd. that day, and not 925. He had their steps; but if, on the other hand, his opinions were in his hand a communication from Gilmore and Co., erroneous, then he should tell him that, instead of con large timber merchants, expressing surprise that any ferring advantage, he was inflicting serious injuries on such statement could have been made, and they autho- the public interests, and, most of all, on the labouring rised him to state to the Right Hon. Gentleman the classes, and those connected with labour. If the Noble Member for Oxford (who sets a due value on the timber Lord should teach those classes to refer the cause of of Cornish mines too), that they had made bins an offer that distress to the legislation he had alluded to, and if of red timber, now lying at Hull, for 755. He believed he induced them to seek a remedy by any changes in the Right lion. Gentleman would look upon this as a that legislation, it was impossible, in the first instance, windfall. In 1842 the foreign trade of the Baltic that such changes could be brought about, and even if was carried ou equally by British ships and British they could, they would only aggravate the evil they seamen, and foreign ships and foreign seamen. In 1639 were intended to remedy. The Noble Lord laid par he found that the foreign trade in the Baltic was carried titular stress on the evil influence ,of free-trade on by 667 British ships, manned by 6,433 British sea- measures on the silk trade and timber trade. With men, and by 663 foreign ships, manned by 6,863 foreign regard to the timber trade he (Mr. Gladstone) was seamen. But since the great alteration had token place obliged to confess that, lengthy as the statement of in 1845, the number of British ships had fallen from 667 the Noble Lord was, he could not understand it. to 662, and the number of British seamen fell from He should be glad if the Noble Lord committed himself' 6,438 to 5,937; while the number of foreign ships in- to some definite proposition, instead of making some creased from 663 to 1,893, and of foreign seamen from vague declarations ; ho should wish he had stated some 6,863 to 17,449.—(Hear.) They might be as good facts, or committed himself, boldly to a proposition on Englishmen as he was ; but if they did not enter the subjects made in the changes of the law. On that seriously into the consideration of this question, they subject, as far as he (Mr. Gladstone) could understand, did not come up to his notions of what Englishmen lie carefully avoided committing himself, but he sup ought to be. With respect to the Canadian trade, he posed the Noble Lord meant to say from the manner in would show the House the greatest distress had befallen which he spoke of their colonies, and of the colonial it by the measures which had lately been passed in that timber trade, that they were both fallen into something House; and that they had put into the pockets of fo• like ruin in consequence of the legislation of that House, reigners the greater part of the duty taken off. He under the influence of his Right Hon. Friend the left it to the House to say, with such a falling off Member for Tamworth. If that were the case, the of prices as he had shown, what the Canadian roer• Noble Lord could not blame him, when he said that he chants must have suffered by the change. He was grossly misinformed on the subject. He believed, would now come to the other branch of the returns however, he was correct in his quotation of prices, and for which he was moving—he meant the silk trade, so was he (Mr. Gladstone) also, for the Noble Lord He had, on a former occasion, drawn attention to this spoke of 1847, while he alluded to those of 1848. A subject, and to the distress which existed in the districts great difference took place in prices; but he believed of Spitalfields and Bethnal-green. He had stated that the Noble Lord was accurate in the quotation which it commenced in its greatest severity in 1845 ; bet he he made for the year 1347. He was sorry to have used was told that he had made a great chronological mistake t h e wor d s gross ly misinformed. He must not, however, —that it had commenced as early as 1840, and that the judge of the charges by the state of the markets in pe alteration in the law was not until 1845. He attributed clods of d e pression, nor when the country had undergone the distress mainly to that alteration. The Noble Lord a severe visitation of Providence, followed by the most charged the free-trade party in the House with having outrageous and improvident speculations. The Noble dabbl e d i n th e s ilk tr a d e of this country until they Lord must not be surprised if the country, under these brought ru i n upon tho se most directly engaged in it— circumstances, should have fallen into a state of collapse, the m anu f ac t urers i n Spitalfields an d B e thnal-green. It although, certainly, he had the advantage of stating facts had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Glad• which then existed and could not be disputed. But none stone) that the details of ruin and distress which he had could judge fairly of the success or failure of principles given on this subject were, as related to Spitalfields and by such a period as that. They should look over a Bethnal-green, greatly overstated, and that it was not the series of years, and compare the results of each, both in competition of foreigners, but of the Manchester manufac- t i mes of prosperity and depression. He (Mr. Gladstone) turers that affected them. But he (Lord G. Bentinck) did was never more astonished than when the Noble Lord not find that since 1842 there had been any great in- found fault with him because, instead of confining him crease in the silk-trade of Manchester. He found that in self to a single year, which might vary, he took the 1842 there were eight or nine silk mills in Manchester, average of ten years from the parliamentary returns then and he now found that there were seven or eight mills before the House. And because he (Mr. Gladstone) did in full employment there. When he turned his eyes to that, the Noble Lord had called the result which he foreign countries, he found a very different state of drew from well ascertained facts that co uld not bo dis things with regard to importation from abroad to this put's(' " his theories. ' country, and it was mainly to show how things had Lord GEORGE BENTINCK —No. changed that he now moved for the returns. He now Mr. GLADSTONE did certainly understand the asked that there should be laid before the House a return Noble Lord to have called the conclusions which he thus of the importation of silks to the port of London alone; drew from Parliamentary returns "theories ;" but bo and having looked at the official returns of the Custom- that as it may, he would take the timber trade, and test house papers, he found that in the four months ending it in two ways for the satisfaction of the Noble Lord. He the sth of May, reckoning 31 . sterling as the value by should first give the average price and the quantity im which thrown silk 500,577 1 . sterling , and repeating that ported, and then take the price of the greatest market he found that it amounted at the end of the year t o one t or co l o nial timber. perhaps, in the world —namely, million and a half sterling. If they took 9s. a week as Liverpool. In the years 1840, 1841, 1842, the average the average of the wages of the Bethnal-green w e aver, mice o f t imber per foot was 2s. Old., and deducting 2zled. they would find that there had been imported into the duty, which was repealed, left the average price really port of London alone, goods which, after deducting Is. 10d. Now take the six years, including this portion one-third, would be equal to the wages, at 9s. a of 1848, and the average price was Is. 9d. against Is. 10d. week, of sixty-four thousand persons. When he in the former year, showing a reduction of ld. per foot, showed those things, did he not prove, he would ask, which was calculated, according to the Noble Lord, to that it was from the competition of foreigners, and not drive their colonies into that state of ed.i—n ru which he had ad from the competition of seven or eight silk mills at so earnestly a nd feelingly describ(Cheers Manchester, that the silk trade was suffering ?—(Hear, laughter.) Now how could they be ruined . by that de- Fur his own part Hear. hear.) . , hear.) The Noble Lord then took the average of the clenaion in prices ?—( last ten years, from 1833 to 1843, as compared with the he was exceedingly of the reduction because the glad ~ . ; ved by the colonial timber, and importation of the last two years, and showed that the monopoly heretofore eine. , . •o ed, ressed hard on distress in Spitalfields within the last two years, arising the enormous protection it esti y. P if . Baltic ; but it pro from the importations of foreign goods, was in excess; the superior article from the it would follow . and if the Right Hon. Gentleman, he continued, would diced ruin to their colonies, would have diminished take the trouble to look into this, he would find it to be portation of colonial timber blesay Lord their colonies so; he would find that the consumption of the various With what face c ould the No fren trade, when he could kinds of silk, raw, thrown, and waste , was , in the two were ruined by a syste m of d taken ,place in the years 1846-7, less than the consumption of 1844-5, he have seen that a vast iner"'n ha Hear, hear.) Ile had his (Lord George Bentinck) thought, by something like importation of that article.—( d b the eminent firm of 20,0001b5. He moved for returns which would show the authority from a circular issue . y ortations six years quantity of silk which had been consumed at home in Warton and Co., giving the h imP , s in the coinmer. the two years 1846-7, as compared with 1844-5, and he before and six years after the c find ang ie t- lace. The tonnage would find that there was a decrease in 1646-7, as corn- cial policy of the country he-- taken -. tim e b r from British pared with 1844.5, of 246,0001b5. of thrown silk, of ships employed in bringing x years before the 99,0001b5. raw silk, and 143,5381b5. of waste silk. The America to Liverpool, for the st Nobleamounted on an average the law, Lord then read a letter from the rector of the • change took place in . for the six years after, parish of Bethnal. °Teen (as weunderstood la' un), setting to 152,001) tons annually ; while forth the distress now ' • hear.) Now he would ask the exrting amcng the weaving poor it was 181,000.—(11ear , of the district, as excould say to that, and whether he cee . ing anything of the kind that Noble Lord what he . had come under his e that colonial interests notice during the seven preceding would still persevere in asserting years that he had been 1 of the protective duties? If a rector of the parish The letter were ruined by the remove; described the population • * that ondition, the colonial as becoming more destitute from the timber trade had been in c year to year, and as badl I felt it worth their while to y odged housed clad and fed merchants would not have s and their wages continually reduci clad ' ' at diminished prices, and That was the send . inereased quantitie statement of the incumbent, who handg.re •eat reason to complain. sided there for of which they had no very g reat by the seven years, and yet it had been attempted to boshown ore greatly benefited . The British public w ad by figures that they were in a stateofparticle at a cheaper rate. great prosperity. vanes of having a better And he went on to state that theseshow an increase in poor people would The ]Noble Lordthen proceeded to e riot consent to break up their homes while they had a the hich he says was got at price of foreign timber, w chair and table left. Yet almost all of them had become merchants. But he ought to have the expense of British paupeis during the last winter. But it was with some known the Freight which had taken place within consolation that he could turn from this miserable pic- the lasts rise of (1 certainly, having had the evi four years, an • . taro to a better state of things now, lie believed that d be fore the Committee on deuce of a witness examined , s things were looking up, and that the democratic disturb the nay' • unsuspected authority on the navigation-laws, on antes abroad were givinc , a check to foreign, manufac as an economist and phi 'would be ground of personal honour, or tures, the effect of which mill of the poor Spitalfields' weaver. That was, how- meant Mr• G. F . Young;—lie was not disposed to believe ever, only h i s own opinion, for others ascribed •the the Noble Lord e accurate i n his deductions. Now h e althful excitement which had sprung up in Spitalfields what did he state?wa. The increase in the rate of freight of late to other causes. In an article in a free -trade f the s (;d per load, showing only from Baltic was is. • iener which he paper, headed " The Que en and her Ministers," that 3s. 61. er load given to the fore e , healthful excitement was ascribed to the exertions managed to get out of the increased reduction of the Mr. Gladstone arising from the direct influence of her Majesty, by d uty o f 40s ; per l oa d. But his ('s) which the gloom and desponden c y were p assing awaY , object, and that of his Right Honourable Friend They had the ruin and the remedy in strikin g contrast, the Member for Tamworth, was, that foreigners should increase the supply, and they had done so to' an enormous extent, for in 1841 the import of tinabonfrom the Baltic was 140,000 loads, while in 1847 it Wil3 from 220,000 to 440,000. Having said he had great difficulty in detecting some broad and tangible shape in the Noble Lord's charge, he -would leave that subject, with the con viction that he was not entitled to assume the race was one of ruin to British merchants, but, on the contrary, of great advantage to the public, and of little loss, deed to the commercial interests of the country. Then, with regard to silk, the duty was alt ere d b y a re d uct i on of 2s. in the pound in 1842 on Indian silk. The Noble Lord was busy on that evening drawing inferences from matters of fact, and he was bound to say, as he already sail, that he ought not to take any particular period for those inferences. lie had been endeavouring to show there was decay in the trade, and he took the years 1846 and 1847 as compared with 1844 and 1845, when it was .well known its prosperity was at its climax in the latter years, notwithstanding that a most important alteration took place in 1842. Lord G."-BENTINCK denied that he had done so. He task two years of one period and compared them with two of another. Mr. GLADSTONE observed that no doubt the Noble Lord was a judge of what he meant to say, but on his words he (Mr. Gladstone) had a right to put a fair conclusion. With respect to distress in Spitalfields, it was to be considered whether that arose from the ma chinery in Manchester, or the existence of a rural silk trade in Essex and Herefordshire. Ile did not believe however, that it was greater now than before, but at all events it was not fairly traceable to free-trade measures, and beside, the Noble Lord ought to recollect that that House was not legislating for Spitalfields, but for the entire United Kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord was undoubtedly correct when he said that greater importation of silk took place in 1844, 1845, 1846, and 1847. But did ho not know that the: two former years were periods of unexampled prosperity, while the two latter were without a parallel for distress ? In every point of view his own statement was satisfactory. He showed that it increased in every particular by an average of the ten preceding years, and not by compars in; one period of prosperity with another. The Right Hon. Gentleman having referred to the increase of the imports of the raw materials as a proof that in creased employment was thus given to the people, proceeded. Were they to have nothing purchased Were they to introduce the wine-presses of France into England, or the houses used in the manufacture of sugar in the tropics ? The fallacy, in point of fact, was so gross that no one could go through the streets, and see the thousand examples placed before his eyes without laughing at the absurdity of the Noble Lord's com mercial policy. He (Mr. Gladstone) did not know whether, in his peregrinations for commercial informa tion, he ever went up from the City to Lambeth in one of those boats which carry passengers for a penny each —(Laughter.) The movements of that vessel were managed by five or six persons, and yet they carried six or eight hundred persons in the course of an afternoon ; would the Noble Lord be acting as a man of common sense, or as a patriot, if he insisted, as in old times, that they should be carried by the watermen, because forsooth 100 of them would bo engaged, instead of the five or six who now managed the steamer !—(Laughter.) That was the way in which the Noble Lord ought to scrutinize those principles, from which he dated so much of the distress of the people of England. He (Mr. Gladstone) apprehended no evil consequences from any proceeding of the Noble Lord ; he thought, without meaning him any off.nce, that the bit was in his mouth ; he believed his opinions on commercial questions were not likely to make the Parliament of Great Britain placelitself under his guidance in matters of politicul economy, which he believed would bring this country to disgrace and misery. Mr. NEWDEGATE complained of the stateraents put forward to the country by the Right Hon. Gentle man who had just sat down, and the Hon. Member for Westbury, and for his own part, believed that the country was at that moment suffering severely. The Hon. Gentleman, after referring to the quantity of silk imported into this country between 1842 and 1847, for the purpose of showing that the calculations on this subject by the Right Hon. Member for Oxford Univer sity were founded in error, said that after all, the con sequence arising from the present state of the silk trade, was to reduce those engaged in it to the greatest desti tution and the deepest distress. In his own district, if it were not for the subscriptions of the gentry, the poor rites would have been unequal to the wants of the poor. One thousand pounds were subscribed in Coventry for the poor, and in seven weeks forty thousand loaves were distributed amongst the working classes who were thrown out of work owing is the present state of the silk and ribbon trade. One of the consequences of this state of things was, that the people were turning their attention to politics. What was this but turning their attention from trade to other matters, with the view of discovering means to subvert the institutions of the country. The free trade system had brought into the country such a quantity of silk goods as was calculated to paralyse the silk trade for years. He begged now to draw the attention of the House to the depreciation of our exports. The exports, generally, were depre ciated, 17 per cent., and, in respect to silk goods, 34 per cent. Mr. GLADSTONE said he found he had overstated the case which ho had put to the House. Ile forgot to deduct the exports from the imports for the years 1846 and 184/, but he found that, taking the whole twelve years, there was an increase in the quantity of raw and thrown silk used in the country. Sir G. CLERK wished to say a few words on this subject. lie was anxious that every information should be laid before the House, because he believed that the inure the principles of free trade were considered, the more they would be found in accordance with the pros perity of the country. But it was said that the people of Spitalfields and Coventry were in a state of distress. Now was this the first time that distress was to be found in these districts? The Noble Lord could find no parallel for the distress of 1847, except that in 1826 in England, and 1841 in Scotland. But this was before any altera tion had taken place, in the policy of the country as re spected protection. The Bight Hon. Gentleman then adverted to returns made by Captain Willis, from which it appeared that the silk trade in Manchester was in great activity, He was prepared to presto to the Noble Lord (Bentinck) that in 1846 there was 4} millions of pounds of raw silk imported into this country, and that in 1847 there was a very great falling off, to the amount of no less than 60,0001b5. He also found that there was a very great increase in the year 1844 in ma nufactured silk, for in 1844 it amounted to 700,0001bs.; in 1845, to 714,000165.; in 1846, to 808,000 lbs.; and in 1847, to 907,0001b5.; which is an argument that cannot be refuted. He would next refer to the losses sustained by watchmakers, and the Government, by the importa tion of foreign watches, and was ready to show that the watchmakers of this country memorialised the Treasury in consequence of goods of that description being im ported to the amount of 200,000/., which caused a re duction of 10 per cent. in the trade of the watchmakers of this country. He then alladed to the manufacture in the woollen trade, and argued that the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) laboured under a very great hallucination. Ile should say that foreign disturbances did not in the least tend to the benefit of this country by cutting off the trade of foreign countries. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he considered that the measure introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) with respect to the corn-laws and other such mea sures were worthy of this House and this country, and he felt assured that this country would be long proud of such a measure. He then supported it, and as a private Member was proud to have done so, and was therefore strongly opposed to the motion of the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck). For with respect to raw silk imported into this country he was prepared to prove that that trade has very much increased; but it should be recol lected, on the other hand, that the export trade of manufactured silk has also increased. The Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) should also know that there is a diminution this year of 3,0001b5. of raw silk imported into this country when compared with last year, which must tend in some degree to the injury of the manufac• turing interest of this country. He sheuld say, though he was opposed to the motion as being unnecessary, that he should not object to the returns demanded, but would add, that the Government could not be answerable for the accuracy of those returns. Mr. M. GIBSON said that the first part of the even ing, was employed in putting off the business of the country tomorrow, by engaging the House not to meet then. He considered that the motion of his lion. Friend (ltr. Hume) was worthy of attention. As a system of poliey, the Noble Lord should have made a substantive motion, and have taken the sense of the House upon it, instead of wasting time in discussing unopposed returns. The Noble Lord might rely upon it, he ,would not be considered as the friend of the people by endeavouring to add to the price of the loaf, or sugar, or tea, and he might tell him this, that such sympathy for their dis• tress was sure to be regarded, not as the tears of their friends, but as those of the crocodile. lie could not bo called the friend of the people for that, neither could he claim to be the friend of the farmer, if he endeavoured to restore a monopoly now that he was exposed to the com petition of the foreigner. Mr. HENRY said that he remembered well how the lion. Member for Manchester used, night after night, to turn to the same subject of agitation, until he obtained what he sought for, and, remembering that, he felt sur• prised to find that Hon. Member complaining of others fur doing the same thing. Ho did not, nor, indeed, could he, deny that the Noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn had a sympathy for the distress of the poor, yet he said it was useless. Now, he could tell the Hon. Member that they had their own conscientious opinions on political matters, just as he had, and that they were not to be repressed from uttering them by any such means as he had chosen that evening to have re course to. Lord G. BENTINCK briefly explained, complaining that his argument had been much misrepresented, or much misunderstood, by the Right Honourable Member for Oxford. With regard to the observations of the Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Oxford, he confessed he was much surprised to hear him accuse him of endeavouring to enhance the price of sugar, when he had aimed, in particular, to take a halfpenny olf the duty on colonial sugar. The Right Honourable Gentleman rose to stop a discussion, when the object for which it had been commenced had been obtained. Then it was that the Right Honourable Gentleman wasted the time of the House. lie was at a loss to ac count for his great dislike to Epsom Downs, unless it arose from the circumstance, that he had been intro duced by Sir Thomas Gooch, as a most promising Pre,- tectionist repr esen t a ti ve f o r the cou n ty o f S urre y ; and perhaps, tuo, he well knew what a choking hill there Was at Epsom for colts that were disposed to run ititlY• —(Great laughter.) If it were at all inconvenient to the Government, however, he could obtain the returns from his own friends in the City, without troubling them. The returns were then ordered. WALSALL ELECTION PETITION. The SPEAKER informed the House that he had re ceived notice that it was not the intention of the peti tioners in the case to proceed with the petition against the return for the borough of Walsall. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. HUME said that he was very sorry that at that late hour he could not proceed with the motion of which he had given notice.—(Cries of "Go on, go on.") It was then past eleven o'clock.—(Go on.) Hon. Members who cried " Go on" would allow him to judge what he thought best to do. He knew the duty he had under taken, and that it would be impossible for him at that hour to state what he thought ought to be stated with re spect to so important a question.—(Hear.) And to leave the matter, in doubt would be the worst of all courses. — (Hear, hear.) He had been waiting the whole evening in order to bring the question forward, and no person was more disappointed than he was at not being able to do so. He found that the first open day would be the 20th of June.—(Hear, hear, and laughter from the opposition benches.) He would fix the motion for that day, and he hoped he would then meet with no impedi ment.—(Laughter). Mr. F. O'CONNOR moved the adjournment of the House, in order that there should be a motion before the House on which he could speak. lie agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose that he should be allowed to speak for himself, but he hoped that in futurz he would not undertake to speak for the country.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) On a former occasion he had come from a great distance to speak on the motion. He had deceived him (Mr. O'Connor) a first time, but it would be his own fault if the Hon. Member fur Montrose deceived him a second time.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Oxford was quite right in saying that the subject of the Hon. Gentleman's motion was but " a tub to the whale." It was an important subject, however ; but it could have been brought on that night, and the debate adjourned. The Hon. Member for Montrose asked the working classes to fraternize with the middle classes, and he had come to the conclusion—but with great violence to his feelings—(Laughter)—to abate a great portion of the principles he had always strenuously advocated, and which ho would always continue to advo cate. He had not been well treated, for were it not for the assurance of the Hon. Member that he would bring the subject forward on the first opportunity, he (Mr. O'Connor) would bring on his motion. After the middle classes making an appeal to the working classes for union, and after having been before deluded by the middle classes, he asked the Hon. Member for Montrose whether he thought it likely that he for one, or that the working classes, would confide in hiss?—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He told the Hon. Gentleman, and those with whom he acted, that they must make a de termined stand. They had juggled the people for the last month, and now they were going to postpone the question for another month, whereas lie might have brought it forward that night, and the debate would be adjourned. He was nut surprised that Hon. Gentlemen opposite should think they obtained a great triumph, and that they should smile and treat with derision the posi tion in which the Hon. Member had placed his consti tuents.—(Laughter.) He would not be a party to such "a delusion, mockery, and snare."—(Hear hear, from the Opposition.) lie would not be a party to counselling the working classes to place confidence in men who he believed in his soul and conscience only intended to use them for their owa purposes.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) He believed that the country would not be satisfied at the postponement of the motion, and he agreed with the Hon. Member for Oxford that it was only " a tub to the w hale."—( Laughter. ) Mr. CO - BDEN—l'think there can be but one opinion in the House and in the mind of every honest and intelli gent man in the country, that my Hon. Friend the Mem ber for Montrose is blameless for the delay which has taken place.—(Hear, hear.) I think no reasonable man will suppose that any man, having the conduct of so im portant a question, ought to bring it forward at eleven o'clock at night.—(Hear.) I object to so important a question being discussed at that hour, and if it was brought on at five o'clock I question if a whole evening would suffice for its proper discussion.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman has undertaken to give advice, not in very courteous or complimentary language, to my lion. Friend.—(Hear.) If I might venture to give ad vice to my lion. Friend, I advise him that in the conduct of this important question he will nut follow the advice, and still less the example of the Hon. Gentleman-- (Cheers)—who calls himself the leader of the working classes, and who fur nine years has been advocating the people's charter. Mr. O'CONNOR—Fifteen years. Mr. COBDEN—I believe the lion. Gentleman him self stated the other day, at the Convention, that after his fifteen years of leadership, he had but one man in the House on whom he could depend, in his own absence, to advocate the principles of the charter.—(Name, name.) I believe one Member was mentioned, but Ido not know who he was.—(Laughter.) I think that one fact issurficient to warn my lion. Friend how he follows the track of the Hon. Member for Nottingham; and if anything can open the eyes of the working classes of this country to a just sense of the value of the leader ship of the Hon. Member, it is the position in which their cause has been placed in this House, and in the country, by the Hon. Gentleman, after his fifteen years of leadership. Sir, I have had a long experience of the lion. Gentleman, and he will not accuse me of any per sonal hostility towards him, for certainly no man has lavished so many compliments on me as the Hon. Member for Nottingham; and, with my experience of his conduct out of this House, by contriving to array the working classes against every man who was disposed to assist them in carrying forward their objects, if they wished them to succeed—l say the Hon. Member has done more to retard the political pro gress of the working classes than any public man who ever lived in this country.—(Hear, hear.) I speak after a lung experience of the Hon. Gentleman; and no person has a better right to speak on this subject than I. For seven years I had directed against me the relentless hos tility of the Hon. Gentlemen while advocating what I believed then, and what I believe still to be, the cause of the working classes—l mean the abolition of the tax on food.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon. Gentleman did all he could to array the working classes against me on that subject, and I had more hostility to encounter from him and his party than I had from the Duke of Buckingham and all his followers.—(Hear, hear.) What was the result? I never fraternized with the lion. Gentleman or his myrmidons—l never fraternized or succumbed to them for a moment.—(Hear, hear.) I always treated him as the leader of a small, insignificant, aad powerless party. I never identified him with the mass of the working classes of the country.—(Hear.) I treated him then, as I treat him now, not as the leader of the working classes of the country, but at the leader of an organized faction of the smallest portion of the community.—(Hear.) I never failed to beat him and his followers in public assemblies in every county in the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) I speak for myself, and only for myself; but in any agitation which I enter upon for the political fran chises of the working classes, as I never have, I never will, fraternize with the Hun. Gentleman or his organized followers; and, as I said before a hundred times, I say again, that I set them at defiance now.—(Hear, hear.) I exhort my Hon. Friend not to be deluded by anything that falls from the Hon. Gentleman as to his power with the working classes of the country. As ho was weak before, he is powerless now; and as to his authority with them, it is equally unimportant and uniufluential with respect to any political question.—(Hear, hear.) My Hon. Friend may feel assured, notwithstanding the unwarrantable and ferocious attack of the Hon. Gentleman, that the people of this country would not withdraw that confidence which the great mass of the nation had in him.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. O'CONNOR—When the Hon. Member says that he beat me at every public meeting, I can only say that I never had the pleasure of meeting him but once. Mr. COI3DEN—I said the Hon. Gentleman or his followers. Mr. H. BERKELEY postponed his motion on the subject of vote by ballot to the 20th of June. Mr. O'CONNOR said he would withdraw his motion for an adjournment.—(No, no.) Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Gentleman only moved the adjournment for the purpose of addressing the House. I hope the House will allow the other business on the paper to be disposed of. I cannot see that there is any objection, or anything unusual, in the Hon. Member for Montrose postponing his motion till a future opportunity, as he was not able to bring it on to night.—(Bear, hear.) With regard to the other ques tion which the Hon. Gentlemen raised between them. selves, the Hon. Member for Nottingham saying that the working classes had no confidence in the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose, and the Hon. Member for the West Riding saying that no confidence ought to be placed in the lion. Member for Nottingham— (Laughter)—without making any observation on this question of personal confidence, I must say that my belief is that the middle and working classes of the eountry neither wish for the one great reform nor the other—(Cheers)—that they aro neither anxious for the People's Charter, nor for this great plan of reform which comes near the Charter, as proposed by the Hon. Member for Montrose.—(Hear, hear.) I believe they wish neither ono nor the other, and that they see their true interest is that there should be a gradual progress of reform, and that this House should give its attention to the questions before us, and that in the peaoe and quiet of the country lies their true interest.—(Loud Ministerial and Opposition cheers.) The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn. POOR-LAW (IRELAND). Mr. FRENCH, in moving for a Select Committee to inquire into and report on the statements contained in the petition from the county of Roscommon, which was presented on the 15th day of this instant May, as to the working of the Irish poor-law, complained that the poor law system wus introduced into Ireland after it had been pronounced unsuitable to that country on the highest authority. It was inflicted on Ireland on the unfounded statements and mistaken cal culations of Mr. Nichols, and the result is, that it entailed the greatest misery on the people. He contended that they were not justified in continuing the Irish poor-law. But he should not detain them at that late hour, he should content himself with moving that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report on the statements contained in the Roscom mon petition, as to the working of the Irish poor-law. Sir G. GREY regretted that this motion had not been postponed, for it was impossible that due attention could at that hour be gi v e n to the subject. For his own part, he could not advise the House to agree to the motion. Witnesses for a Committee on the p oovercould brought at present, from Ireland; and with respect to th e ati p cuar petition to which the Hon. Memb er referred no inquiry could ho instituted respecting it which ' did not assume the form of an investigation 0 n the general question. Looking forward to the time when a really useful in quiry ;night be instituted, he trusted the House would negative this motion, it it were • • insisted on, particularly as the British Association wa s now spending 10,000/. a week in Ireland, and making the greatest exertions to alleviate the misery of the people,—(Hear.) Colonel CONOLLY did not go the length o f deny the subversion of the Irish Poor-law ; buteriugh quired material amendment. Properly ed oil he had no doubt that law would prove a decided bleshes ing, but of course it could not be expected t o be broug to maturity in an hour. Much of its administrat,iond: however, was very arbitrarily and despotically Manse° is Twisleton's name was much objected t o, and he w bound to say that he did not think it was such as to en. surf' confidence or invite co.operation. Mr. R. A. FOX said that Mr. Twisleton was an c%* tremely urbane and sensible person. Sir D. NORREYS censured the arbitrary in Ireland which no fewer than 40 boards of guardians had been dismissed. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his motion for the present. There vi'f's much inquiry needed on the subject before it could De judiciously brought forward. the Sir W. SOMERVILLE assured the House that Wanner in dissolution of boards of guardians in Ireland pastierll° matter of taste with the Commission, but sim p l y a • to of necessity. The Commission had e ver y desire to car"()i. duct their administration without any approach trary rules. Colonel DUNNE thought that a searching inqui,ir! into the working of the poor-law in Ireland was that siv! lutely essential to the. well-being and tranquillity of t. _ country. He condemned the summary dismiesal of l' o ° , board of guardians as quite unjestified by the conduct , the majority of the disolved boads Mr. P. 5 BUTLER s concurred r in . the necessity for iet s . e. inquiry into the poor-law in Ireland; t he p resen ter do nistration of which excited much dissatiscaction t Mr. FRENCH withdrew his motion. NATIONAL LAND COMMITTEE. 0 Mr. F. O'CONNOR moved for a Select Comnsitteeio inquire into the National Land Comp an y Ind prospect*. ROMAN CATHOLIC JURORS (IRELAND/'l, tutte d had KEOGH, in moving for the return s of whic"o had given notice, begged to premise that he was ac' ,1 by no sympathy for the gentlemen who had lately a ugh l put ou their trials for sedition in Dublin. tho h o f au insult had been offered to the Roman Catholl°6chz, Ireland, and they thought so themselves , by their f°. t he sion from the jury panels. The list of jurors,' for led city of Dublin consisted of 600. Of these 48 were selec,be to form the panel, and this number was reduced by ' l2. Crown striking off 12 and the traverser striking 06,,,e The Crown had, at the late trial of Mr. Meagher, 141." be off 11 out of 12 Roman Catholics who were loft on s 0 revised jury list. Amongst the gen tlemen who w ere eii struck off as Roman Catholics were some of the ° c oy respectable inhabitants of Dublin. He would sPe,rbe particularly Messrs. Campbell and Mr. Power. ea of former highly creditable merchants, the latter a na et fortune. Now what he desired to ask the Hon. 13sr j t ee opposite was, what were the grounds upon whi i ,,,ba'. Crown lawyers in Dublin had struck these gen,t' e- ,,e0. names off the jury Fend ? How did the u, eb' ment think such an act could be performed f t he out causing great exasperation in the minds ° t elt Roman Catholics of Ireland? He was entitled t° r a t e upon whose authority this was done? Was it !I: er e', of the Secretary for Ireland, or of the AttorneY' ue : f the himself a Roman Catholic? or was it by order - on Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, w ho had fi e Ike° a former occasion in that House denounced the I s • - b tbs pursued by the Government of dealing unfairly w i h ` I be jury list in the case of Mr. O'Connell? 11 ° °lige told that the thing was done by Mr.liernmis, th.e-tr°tbis solicitor for Ireland. But he would not believe tl t ' a ett , was the case. Not only was the jury panel so in dear the case of Mr. Meagher, but also in th at of atei' S. O'Brien. There could be no confidence in th° er . nistration of the law in Ireland whilst such p raclic lor iN allowed. The Governmeat was without an ex cute A be es conduct on the occasion in question. There lie t he th e some great blunders committed in Ireland dourstbelics late trials. He believed that if the Roesa°l - the ° who had been struck off had been left on, s,_ ll tl o who had been left on the panel had been struck L ents' result would have been to have rendered the client certain of a verdict. The only one of tee ow Catholics left on the jury was a person of no Il t a e l . : - dsi s had been chairman of a repeal meeting only I° , e before. He went about boasting, after the jurY.e o e , los' charged, what he had done. But the most e u e r e it : hell! was that he was left on the list ba mistake; Jed vest* clerk of St. Mark's Church it Was cOnc•-seaee was a y- Protestant, whereas he was a s taunc h bt for: Catholic.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He had g el ward ward this question, in order that Governlnnut•lo-00, have some opportunity of explaining a circ° w ar which was calculated to cau se much discontent 6 bt the Roman Catholics of Ireland. e t wee A Mr. C. ANSTEY seconded the motion. 11 ,• r :frol 11 ,; that the conduct of her Majesty's law °fac ers OS ell had been on e ti ssue o f error, and that Govern'e t iea. a bound to take prompt steps for a speedy refolon' Lord J. J. RUSSELL regretted that the . 0a els da Learned th Member had not postponed his lO U Irels 9 __ e ere had been time to receive information fronsweetl; 11 had not certainly expected that the pre' eti c t orti llij os ment would have been exposed to a c harge ' oil the ground of excluding Catholics from i n ur :j e on-:0 entertained then, as he had formerly, tee 51500,,.. the exclusion of Roman Catholics from j oc a eed in t;s 4 an extremely wrong and unjustifiable 'Pt h o It°. ei (Hear, hear.) He would remind the House t *no el as Catholics had under the present Government teets..el as much favour in public appointments as Pr°te :G ene rtr might be evidenced by the fact of the e tttorn e • t h 0 3- a l and the Under-Secretary for Ireland being h fi ° t helr e te hers of that persuasion. _(Hear.) The 01°B re - rosit' eu ee 3 that prosecutions fbr sedition had been lee"' t he "i s es o had written to his Noble Friend at teof i of the Irish Government, expressing his hop° t" the . $ terference should take place with regard t° acq uit s.) uit For his part he would much rather see I nen (Clese than that any such conduct should take place . - d '' His Noble Friend bad, in reply to hig ja (Lor i, he vi de sell), expressed a similar opinion; and wis e a ec„ e il informed that a Roman Catholic had been vac ea r' from the jury without any reason arising irl t his s ' o s. political conduct, his Noble Friend expre ss be en 1 3 a prise, and stated, that if such conduct 11 ,, mu nee rled. !Ala sued it had been entirely without his kn e e be d° , - ors approbation.—(Cheers.) Having said s ° " e ilea . '71 ) 0 not go further into details until he had r„ y er. g ot templet° information. He believed, h w `, Ge, 13 , - j e tes neither the Lord-Lieutenant nor the Attend of had any wish to exclude a juror on the groat s( ' ° et • 1 • or that the jury should be exclusively Foteiti7g. for be facts proved that to have been the case, ile e s , t oott 00 5 person had been left on who had held ou S h : ses, s ts majority of the jury, considering that the ion io bound by his oath to act contrary t°,, t e b regis r e est of the faction to which he belonged. Il" l a tter_ g r ao the Hon. and Learned Member's motion, th er e sov r ot of it could not be conceded, seeing th ast to S he oPif legal record of the religion of jurors, hut h ol g i ber there could be no possible objection. Il e ! f ed I" say in conclusion that the moment he relies_ sau c e !* information he would lay it on the table foe tn t " w hete h T e ic Lion the House. He could only repeat thildieg their tir example might be set by others of disregsr t to obligations or making their duty subsersleuneeoooee, politics, the Government should be the 'li c it' °.li, follow such an example.—(Hear, hear.) the their should be merely to get respectable persons i n tP and then to leave the administration of jus tie c e heere. s ' ) o, --( • got hands without respect to religion or parte'. his 0' wa i te d for mo w ce ll o sand r Le A a l r . ne J d . FOr'iCenOdNhNuEdLnLot regretted thlstoetbsraiasi formation. His opinion was that when in n so 111 ,,,a. w to be investig ate d t h e blundering which ?" 1 , the o we t spoken of, would b e found to have rested Yer' ile , CO a, tleman who had been se much eulogiSed'l for Irelf‘tob, Solicitor, and not with the Attorney-Gel:1"$ Oil (1 1 1 4 Mr. REYNOLDS vindicated the respecta patio Roman Catholics who had been struck °f l. the iser eli ov o r the c of Mr. S. O'Bri. Sir ase GEORGE GREY en defended the A.ttor: t e r s ; op ic c o .e and stated that at the special commission ta ro o f ittt had not challenged a single juror on the sco th e , or religion. „ fle neo ll ' After a few words from Mr. F . • it motion was ag -S REPRODUCTION LOAN e reed to. es OCl Arrl l i/ IRISH ; la ) Mr. J. A. SMITH obtained leav e to bil ls * , to dissolve this association. The ouse adjourned at a Quar ter to TwoP'Cl° g r . f ie b o INSTITUTION OF CIVIL ENGINIIESS. tiorit Tuesday n i the President of this distinguished ne.„,dey issued invitations for a conversazione for the 30th of May. gr°' BlRrii.s. On the 17th inst., at Ovington-squara, Bret:oo°li' or tio grj. Daniels, of a daughter. o On the 19th inst., at Wolfor d Vicarage. ths Rev. G. Domvile Wheeler, of a son, stillborn. .0 10 " On the 21st inst., at Fortes-terrace, Kentish i l $ 1 T. Spalding, of a son. RiOcknatrhdes,wife Of ‘" r t ° 22d inst. , at Montague-square, the the _ i r e ° o p On the 19th inst., at Rvde, Isle of Wigbi:ilie;:sq_o.o:oB ill'ef, Rev. I. Nichol', M.A., of Uske in the county of u` of a daughter. tb . 11 tO MARIVED. rr "ckelwa',„,' ,ti „, On the 17th inst., at Trinity Church. Is" - 1411: 1.--P f fr - I lt s e l Jane, Y a T s second c f e n s : t a V . A i t n daughter G t. i 1 " o f Cox the late 1, 1 tb olif is ' On the 18th inst., at St. Martins, Dorking, to co W. K. Joyce, H. Bethune Esq., of Brig ht°s t rkii 4 " 0 96 third daughter of the Rev. .W. Plumb, Esq., lEasqte.,To.f utheelfs 'J. Joyce, vicar of I),.,stinir! of On the 22d inst., at St. Margarets Church. v" i tto r or late Gabriel Murphy, Esq., °Drlubtli?. Illill' "" AO' On Dec. 30, 1847, at Sydnneigy,Dislew Sout h .. /11 _‘.. 1 10 9 0 ' ,!: 5.-;j 4 ; 000 c, Esq., formerly of the Stock Exchange- Liu" W Cull' il3s ' „, Pu O rs n er th a e nd l6 p tl a i y i m ns a t s ., te a r t Suto.yHalelNiearv's,yJ, orseYt,.,, tug' . a ged 0. 2 ,', o f 1./. ' Eeq.,on otfhevvloBotlhwir.6:;eAdn3n9e., the beloved wife il ls' 14 On the 19th inst., at Gloucester. place, 1U 1...hi11/ .. .et d 0 1 ' Thomas, aged 57. W. n ua th le e s, 2 E ot s h q. inst., at Camberwell, age d 86 ' 1451' late f the 0 On the 20th inst., at Brixton, Mary, re l ictuse, Groom, Esq., of the Tax: office, Som erset -1 1 t. ron craS Pr' On the 20th inst., at Egremont - P lace '. ad 46. A 010 1 garet, the beloved wife of W. West, Rl yea r stroll. , • bt ter O osia n nir t teh h , e eß 2 . oth . iLnuste.a,s,atEtshge,'Woodlands, 01 is 17th W inst., R. A.agHeadly7,6E sq., late C‘P t a jo wl 18th Royal Irish Regiment. of J. _Kamp. Esq., of Catton, Derbysh ire j 6 1, o 56. t oe On the 20th inst., at Beatings, Elizabestgbe,dthiOr. At Kenilworth, E. Simpson, EBv abed Lan' b On the 19th inst., at Dover, J. }lnnis. c , 01 , 0 Is . 0 4 On the 20th inst., in the Albion-road, o' qie o il' v L. Burnand, Esq., aged 7. iliobetb. t . On the 19th inst., at Hackney, Anu '' c. ab ~g'.:v I R. Zinzan, Esq. --- lu" ' A _ _____ - - —16;10 pla• ti •• London : Printed and Published 12,9 00 161 ' 0 ,20 0 ki S u " t he No. 112, Strand , P rinter, at Y lA' Strand, in the Precinct of t gel. , Diliddleso, Wednesday, billy 24 , 18' THE su,N, LONDON,_ _WI , 2)::D_NESDAY EVENING, MAY 24, 1848. _.,- d , ~y